I've been experimenting with the effects iron on magnets.
People say its not a shield, and i agree...its more like a rerouting conductor for magnetic flux.
Shield or not you can still achieve the desired affect of any so called shield.
I take apart different size transformers and electric motors and disassemble the laminations into individual slices that they were originally made.....Using various size neo mags i jus mess around and really see the actual physical reactions of the laminations and magnets, without any software predictions or anything.
...Since each lamination is very thin i can fine tune the thickness of the shield to achieve the desired affect.
Too thin and theres barely a difference if the shield was there or not...Too thick and the magents with have a strong attracting force to the laminations. Just right makes it so that the magnets dont interfere with each other making it so theres no pull towards the laminations or repulsion from each other...The desired affect is achieved when you can move like poles in close proximity of each other with much less energy than without the shield or no energy. I can change the thickness of the shield and make two like poles barely repel or barely attract to the shield wich ever effect is desireable or have it at the neutral point. Different magnets, shield thickness, and proximity are what changes this effect.
Without all the software i think this is key concept that needs to be taken advantage of. Bringing like poles together with little or no energy is like bringing a ball to the top of the hill. plenty of potential.
1st picture just shows to mags opposing with A LOT of force in opposite directions.
2nd just shows the magnets in close proximity with no repulsion.
I just used them to help illustrate what i mean.
I've seen a desin that takes advantage of this effect but is not too efficient. I think it was russian but he had a piston much like a car piston with a crank but the piston is magnet and uses a like pole and TDC to repel it back down, but uses a cam timed shield to bring the two mags in close proximity. It was a very crude design but mine is much more effecient and a takes a totally different approach to using this characteristic...Hopefully i will have it done soon, once my brother freaking goes to his storage and get his dang router(wood router.)
G'day Skycaptain,
Not a bad approach. Keep working at this one, there are applications here.
Hans von Lieven
im goin to the gym but i'll post pictures of my work in progress later...sorry
See this thread: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2019.0.html
and this one: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3039.0.html
Also this patent is interesting, when it talks about a multi-layer shield used between two magnets in repulsion:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=mEg2AAAAEBAJ&dq=3,967,146
My design is much more tunable and takes advantage of 180 degrees or more of repelling or attracting force im sure it would work both ways, attracting would prolly be better, since attracting force is roughly 2x stronger than repelling, also the magnets would be happy and last much longer.
first two pictures shows one of the rotors mounted to the base...these two show same thing but different angles, im useing a hard bearing and screwed the partical wood right too it...
These two show the other rotor that will be tunable in the sense of angle in relation to the non adjustable rotor mounted to the base. and oh yeh there i think n37? not sure anymore but some kind of high grade neos 1 inch diameter and length cylindrical magnets.
This is just another pic of the rotor and a drawing i did to help illustrate whats in my head.
These last two show how the two rotors will be in relation to each other...just to help give and idea....
I just drawed this and when i was explaining it in the bottom right, i ran out of room because of my dull pencil makes my letters fat...
Hi,
I wonder why there is a certain angle between the planes of the top and bottom rotors? Why are they not parallel?
Also, I can see the photos dated for the year 2005. Haven't you tinkered with these rotors since then?
I fully agree with your thoughts in your first post:
...Since each lamination is very thin i can fine tune the thickness of the shield to achieve the desired affect. Too thin and theres barely a difference if the shield was there or not...Too thick and the magents with have a strong attracting force to the laminations. Just right makes it so that the magnets dont interfere with each other making it so theres no pull towards the laminations or repulsion from each other...The desired affect is achieved when you can move like poles in close proximity of each other with much less energy than without the shield or no energy. I can change the thickness of the shield and make two like poles barely repel or barely attract to the shield wich ever effect is desireable or have it at the neutral point. Different magnets, shield thickness, and proximity are what changes this effect.
But to achieve this effect for two rotors that are not parallel with each other is more difficult than for two parallel ones, nevertheless it can be surely done.
Probably you are aware of the Ecklin patent where he used the same principle of putting shield between two (repel) magnet poles but he made both the magnets and the shield moveable. (Fig. 3 and 4 in his patent # 3,879,622, see here: http://www.rexresearch.com/ecklin/ecklin.htm ).
Thanks,
Gyula
Well if they were parralell then where would any inbalance in force come from?
but the only fine tuned part of the shield i need is near closest dead center. lemme try to explain it more....
From my head through my fingers and over tha net, it may get twisted but i'll try my best....
The two rotors will be geared together so that at closest dead center two magnets are aligned and all magnets are aligned at any given moment.
So let me try to explain in repel because that may be the easiest.
A pair of magnets comes out of shield then they see each other and want to get as far away from each other as possible.
The only way they can increase distance from each other is to rotate and since the two rotors are angled, different angles make different torque. Low angles would be less torque since the distance between each magnet doesnt change as fast as a higher angle.
Then once the pair reach i guess u could say "TDC" or the 180 degree mark where the magnets will be as far away from each as they can be, they enter the shield. I can make the shield so that they even attract strong into the shield until they get closer and i can make the shield so that its neutral when the magnets come into closer proximity. Then the cycle is repeated.
Now ponder...even if a pair of magnets have a slight sticky spot coming out of the shield, imagine the magnets before it already out of the shield with strong repulsion converting into strong torque pullling it through any sticky spot if there is any, and the magnets attracting strong to shield maybe. Main point being if there is any sticky spot, theres the rest 340 degrees of positive torque from all the other magnets. But most likely any sticky spot can be tuned out.
thats as far as i can do now but i'll try again when i get more time...
Oh and i took those pictures yesterday i guess my camera has the wrong date...
The shield would be different and lot more difficult to fine tune when its in attractive configuration.
So my first attempt will be in repelling mode....i dont know if i explained it good enough
I did some work today, heres a link to my video i just made that shows what i did....the horshoe clamp is only temporary
i tried uploading it to here but it wouldnt load for some reason...so here it is on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HNYFM65YKg
Hi all:
Has anybody tried this magnetic shield? Is it real or what? It seems TGTBT for me but who knows.
http://www.rexresearch.com/wardle/wardle.htm (http://www.rexresearch.com/wardle/wardle.htm)
I put 2 magnets on each rotor in repell and i used plastic bags to make the magnets snug so they fit tight...and just from messing around with it too much i loosened the screws that held down the top rotor....so heres a video of it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mloa0Cg_RjA
Quote from: skycaptain on October 18, 2007, 12:55:19 PM
So my first attempt will be in repelling mode....i dont know if i explained it good enough
Hi,
Thank you for the explanations and the drawings. Now I understand how you mean the setup is supposed to work. Well, I hope you are right and the good thing is you are building it and soon will be in a position to test it.
I think the most critical point is when a rotor magnet just comes out from the cover of the shield, just receives the needed repel kick and encounters a repel force from the second (almost but not yet facing) magnet on the other rotor. Then this repel force continues to appear in a gradually reducing intensity as the rotor proceeds further on, depending on the angle between the two rotors. If there is enough reserve/margin to compensate these repel forces with attraction forces elsewhere, then you have a working motor!
For the time being I cannot see any negative thing in your setup that may hamper the operation of your setup. Of course you have to consider the friction the gear will introduce too but it should be a question of the strength of the magnets used.
Rgds, Gyula
Quote from: NobleWolf on October 18, 2007, 05:21:58 PM
Hi all:
Has anybody tried this magnetic shield? Is it real or what? It seems TGTBT for me but who knows.
http://www.rexresearch.com/wardle/wardle.htm (http://www.rexresearch.com/wardle/wardle.htm)
Hi,
Yes I am aware of that patent and it seems very interesting because the shield when ready has no any ferromagnetic property and still is supposed to block magnetic flux...
It was mentioned first here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1771.msg20092.html#msg20092
and then here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2217.msg29095.html#msg29095
I have not tried it yet.
rgds, gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on October 19, 2007, 09:37:11 AM
Quote from: skycaptain on October 18, 2007, 12:55:19 PM
So my first attempt will be in repelling mode....i dont know if i explained it good enough
Hi,
Thank you for the explanations and the drawings. Now I understand how you mean the setup is supposed to work. Well, I hope you are right and the good thing is you are building it and soon will be in a position to test it.
I think the most critical point is when a rotor magnet just comes out from the cover of the shield, just receives the needed repel kick and encounters a repel force from the second (almost but not yet facing) magnet on the other rotor. Then this repel force continues to appear in a gradually reducing intensity as the rotor proceeds further on, depending on the angle between the two rotors. If there is enough reserve/margin to compensate these repel forces with attraction forces elsewhere, then you have a working motor!
For the time being I cannot see any negative thing in your setup that may hamper the operation of your setup. Of course you have to consider the friction the gear will introduce too but it should be a question of the strength of the magnets used.
Rgds, Gyula
Yeah thats an an important part but once its done i can change the angle and what not or even make the shield go slightly past closest dead center so when the magnete come out its all downhill for them, but who know....
Main problem is i leave for bootcamp next sunday...Oct 28th
thats why im open sourcing it now, i didnt have to time finish it but we'll see.. this is my last week here so im just letting others knnow about my design.
Yeah well we'll see if i cna finish it before i leave, im busy tieing up all the loose knots before i leave though, thats the onlny problem....
Hey Captain from Sky...
Do not get discouraged by a possible lack of time after next week. It is you who got this setup idea and it is you who is expected to make a test on it in practice, right?
I am sure if most of the active builders at this forum were not busy with the Attraction magnet motor made of screws fixed on a cylinder, then your idea surely would get more attention! So this is why I say it is you at the time being the most appropiate person to make a prototype.
Thank you again for sharing your efforts here.
rgds, Gyula
Well I think its because the screw toy thing looks easy and simple...
And in the field where frustration usually is the result of most projects, would you rather ponder an easy failure or a difficult one?
But dont get me wrong the screw motor isnt a complete failure, if you simplify the core design your taking a torque inclination on a linear scale and isolating it and timing it with other copies of the same system to pull its way through, wich is a good concept. Quite like the core design of perendev but perendev uses iron on half of the magnets to take advantage of the shield like qualities of it. Wich im trying to do also, its a quality thats very helpfull and hasnt been fully harnessed.
I doubt im going to finish....i leave this sunday
Quote from: skycaptain on October 20, 2007, 01:13:26 PM
Main problem is i leave for bootcamp next sunday...Oct 28th
Good luck in bootcamp!
Quote from: skycaptain on October 17, 2007, 06:03:33 PM
I've been experimenting with the effects iron on magnets.
People say its not a shield, and i agree...its more like a rerouting conductor for magnetic flux.
Shield or not you can still achieve the desired affect of any so called shield.
I take apart different size transformers and electric motors and disassemble the laminations into individual slices that they were originally made.....Using various size neo mags i jus mess around and really see the actual physical reactions of the laminations and magnets, without any software predictions or anything.
...Since each lamination is very thin i can fine tune the thickness of the shield to achieve the desired affect.
Too thin and theres barely a difference if the shield was there or not...Too thick and the magents with have a strong attracting force to the laminations. Just right makes it so that the magnets dont interfere with each other making it so theres no pull towards the laminations or repulsion from each other...The desired affect is achieved when you can move like poles in close proximity of each other with much less energy than without the shield or no energy. I can change the thickness of the shield and make two like poles barely repel or barely attract to the shield wich ever effect is desireable or have it at the neutral point. Different magnets, shield thickness, and proximity are what changes this effect.
Without all the software i think this is key concept that needs to be taken advantage of. Bringing like poles together with little or no energy is like bringing a ball to the top of the hill. plenty of potential.
1st picture just shows to mags opposing with A LOT of force in opposite directions.
2nd just shows the magnets in close proximity with no repulsion.
I just used them to help illustrate what i mean.
I've seen a desin that takes advantage of this effect but is not too efficient. I think it was russian but he had a piston much like a car piston with a crank but the piston is magnet and uses a like pole and TDC to repel it back down, but uses a cam timed shield to bring the two mags in close proximity. It was a very crude design but mine is much more effecient and a takes a totally different approach to using this characteristic...Hopefully i will have it done soon, once my brother freaking goes to his storage and get his dang router(wood router.)
This is well known physics. However, the drawback of such magnetic setup, is that you will have repelling forces when the magnets are further apart. In a closed loop - as I assume you'll looking for at the end - must have a state where the magnets are in a greater distance, the iron is placed differently, and so on. In these parts of a closed loop, you'll find unexpected, or at least not taken into account, forces that will work against the desired rotation. The magnet setup will at the end just be a magnet with magnetic lines in a closed loop, and no rotation. Well, that's my experience. However, with right timing, allways right amount of "shield" etc. you'll probably succeed. I did come f...ing close once, but not "there". If you use Femm, you can simulate this setup, and find that there is in a sertain magnetic setup (including iron parts etc) in fact greater force in one direction. The problems occours when the path is infinetly long, or closed circle, or you duplicate several magnetic setups in a row. All forces are then suddenly cancelled out...damn the laws of physics >:(
Vidar
Just for fun, Femm the setup to have say six wheels with only one mag track on each. Then each out of sync with each other. This was so sad he had to jump off to boot camp now. Think he was onto the right track. Just use cold roll iron instead of soft regular iron. Doesn't like to hold a mag force.
thaelin
Im going to cut the shield out of regular 16 guage 6"x18" sheet metal since it would make it much easier to make. Since the laminations were pre cut and made for whole different shapes and sizes it would be hard to piece together a 180 degree of about 6 inch radius piece out of little strips....but yeh couple days left...but im going into the navy as AT aviation electronics tech. help build on my passion..but definately will still persue once i get back.
But as for the fem setup....i have fem downloaded and installed on my computer but i havent gotten around to reading the 178 page or so manual....If someone is fluent with it would it be to much of a bother to try a model?
Quote from: skycaptain on October 25, 2007, 01:44:37 AM
Im going to cut the shield out of regular 16 guage 6"x18" sheet metal since it would make it much easier to make. Since the laminations were pre cut and made for whole different shapes and sizes it would be hard to piece together a 180 degree of about 6 inch radius piece out of little strips....but yeh couple days left...but im going into the navy as AT aviation electronics tech. help build on my passion..but definately will still persue once i get back.
But as for the fem setup....i have fem downloaded and installed on my computer but i havent gotten around to reading the 178 page or so manual....If someone is fluent with it would it be to much of a bother to try a model?
If you could make an easy understood drawing of what you want to simulate, I'll be happy to help you out :)
Br.
Vidar