After about 8 months of digging , I can finally confirm the following .
The VIC was made in a EI steel laminated core , was about the size of the VIC 6-1 on a piece of papers , was made with S/S wire . It has taken a long time for me to be to able to give you this info so "rafined" .
I dont believe nobody has recreated this VIC properly , ever . There was an attempt by 2curious4wfc but it seems he was wrong with the core , wich is very suspicious . The simple fact that aftr so many years not 1 serious attempt has been attempted by anyone , I'm truely dissapointed @ the human race in general ...
http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=870
Obviously there is a link between us failing all the time and the fact we are not replicating the VIC Stan says on video is the real physical design , does he describe the physical design in the other videos ? No , only in this one . Does he talk much of other physical designs in the tech brief ? No , only this one , and alot of info dedicated to it , ALOT .
So we have a pattern of idiots here ... Nobody is following the real hard evidence , everybody is failing , absolutely no progress is done ...
In fact when I present this information some people frikkin attack me for selling wire ??? WTF !!!!!!!!! Its more than thats obviously ... You can see now why no progress is done when we have these ravens out there ...
its either that the clues from the tech brief , and Dynodon`s word are not good , or that 2curious is right and it is indeed an I core .I would say odds are thats its an EI core and Dynodon`s word is good , besides it appears from the brief that it is an EI core .
Stan never mentions any core type but does mention a tiny clue as seen in my pic .
I also believe coil 10-4 is made on an EI closed loop core since its core is referenced to figure 10-3A/B
So we have Stan on video saying this is it , Dynodon is saying he saw it , and its in black and white in the brief , id say this is indeed correct information based on truth . So we have approximative dimensions , we have approx resistance , we have an idea of the setp-up ratio , we have some wire gauge , we have core type , we have alot of clues now ...
We need to seriously get at this and troubleshoot this stuff in a massive new way , forget the manoeuvres , just ram that shizt , theres 18000 members here , Im sure we can get 40 good well equipped individuals .
http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1157
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6hJEmw3mes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSlF7khibs0
http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?image=4302ao9.jpg
http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=430or5.jpg
Great post Dankie , you really layed it out this time , as usual . Nice collection of proof DAM dankie dont get yourself killed lol ;) Is there even an opinion in this thread ?
Hey I joined this site to say this , yall should listen more to Dankie , the kid has some kind of intuitive judgement . I'm glad I met dankie and I'm glad I bought some wire from him , this stuff is really great to work with and its really a bargain price for such quality . At first I tought Dankie was annoying but and after a while it becomes clear that he just following clues like everyone else but Dankie is just better at it . Ive never seen Dankie talk about other stuff than this VIC injector , ever , the kid cant shut up ;)
But seriously , this is what I like about the kid , see this thread here ? This is gooooood stuff , no BS , no opinions , he lays out the evidences for your asses , argue if you want , Dankie has the proof :o
Dankie is trying to set up an enviroment where everybody can help out eachother in a MIB safe enviroment where we are legion , for that we should all respect him . So what if he is making a bit of money while doing something positive , the kid is already 10 times cheaper than anybody , I sware to you , at least 10 times cheaper . So what if he is a little punk with an attitude problem , once you get to know him he's a really nice and generous guy . If anyone of you MIB agents out there try to discredit him , good luck to ya , Dankie will most likely destroy you and I will help him out .
Dankie has nothing to worry about from MIB. They are busy with the TPU.
Big Oil might have interest if he does indeed achieve the results. However, he has never mentioned the underlying mechanism of Meyer's work. Thus he probably does not know, so he has little to worry about.
Buzz on the other hand, is probably on a list.
Dankie,
If you want to build this coil you should understand why it is built as it is, and how it operates. I have spent some years designing coils, transformers, and flybacks, I worked for a company that manufactured HV transformers so this one is not so unusual to me.
First we should understand what Stanley Meyers was doing different then everone else with separating water. The difference is that Stanley went to using high voltage to separate water into gas, everyone else was doing it the old fashioned way of electrolysis, low voltage-high current. If you look at the two graphs he shows in his patent, you can see that production slowly increases with current the low voltage way. His graph of his way, using High Voltage, shows that gas production is exponential with increasing voltage. The HV stretches the water molecule until it snaps the bonds between the H and O. What he was doing was pulsing the cell several times to line the molecules up between the cell plates and then stopping to allow the flyback condition to occur and zap it with very HV to snap the bonds.
O.K. Now the transformer is built the way that it is for several reasons. The first is that this is a Voltage dependant process and he wanted to minimize current flow in the WFC, utilizing stainless steel winding wire provides more resistance per linear foot which increases the total winding resistance thereby giving him less current flow. SS wire though is non magnetic and therefore works just like copper wire but with more resistance. The second reason is that he wanted to maximize the total inductance and capacitance in the VIC, more capacitance and inductance equals lower inherent resonant frequency also by keeping the interwinding capacitance as high as he could and the WFC capacitance as low as possible( hence the tube within tube design that minimizes capacitance compared to parallel plates) the fuelcell capacitance will not make to much difference with self resonance of the device. The bifilar windings are there to increase total inductance, when the end of one of the bifilar wind is connected back to the second wire start it quadruples the inductance and greatly increases capacitance (as Tesla shows in his patent 512340) The output is split into 2 bifilar coils because a single bifilar wound coil would not be able to handle the voltage between the wires. Which brings us to the third reason. This is a High Voltage transformer and I mean 40,000 volts high, it is dangerous, in order to contain the HV the transformer is wound in small segments starting from one end, you do not wind back and forth across the bobbin like normal. the wire going down to the bottom of each segment needs to be isolated with a small piece of mylar tape and the entire outside should be coated with epoxy the output leads should really be made of spark plug wire that feed the WFC. Remember it is High Voltage, winding HV transformers is tricky if you have never made one before it will be tough. The two bobbins are again to separate the two flyback windings because of the voltage, These two windings need to be on the core in the proper polarity for it to work right, when it is working right the output of each flyback winding will go in opposite directions across the WFC (+ and -). The diode shown in Stanley's patent can go between the two leads at one end of the transformer and the two leads at the other end can have the spark plug wires attached for the WFC.
Now because this coil set has both inductance and capacitance it will have an inherent resonant frequency that if you run this at, it will minimize the power required to drive it, thereby again minimizing power usage. If the capacitance of the WFC is low it will have little effect on the resonant frequency. At least this is how I see it, I may not be totally correct but I think it is about as complete a theory as I've seen around here.
I hope this helps
Room3327
I should also add that Stanley Meyer shows the device being run on 60 HZ. A steel transformer core is fine for this and if resonant frequency is within 500 Hz or so, good for that too, but I would suspect resonance would be higher such as 40 or 50 KHz. For a higher resonant frequency you would want to use a ferrite core such as a color TV flyback transformer dual U core. This kind of transformer can probably be wound easier as a double U core then an EI. Two Identical bobbins one on each leg of the core. The primary winding can be on the outside of one or split between the two. But this thing may not resonate properly because of the diode, but the diode, I'm sure, has to be in the circuit for it to work with the WFC.
Room
build it an I'll buy it.
Quote from: Room3327 on January 24, 2009, 01:04:15 AM
Dankie,
If you want to build this coil you should understand why it is built as it is, and how it operates. I have spent some years designing coils, transformers, and flybacks, I worked for a company that manufactured HV transformers so this one is not so unusual to me.
First we should understand what Stanley Meyers was doing different then everone else with separating water. The difference is that Stanley went to using high voltage to separate water into gas, everyone else was doing it the old fashioned way of electrolysis, low voltage-high current. If you look at the two graphs he shows in his patent, you can see that production slowly increases with current the low voltage way. His graph of his way, using High Voltage, shows that gas production is exponential with increasing voltage. The HV stretches the water molecule until it snaps the bonds between the H and O. What he was doing was pulsing the cell several times to line the molecules up between the cell plates and then stopping to allow the flyback condition to occur and zap it with very HV to snap the bonds.
O.K. Now the transformer is built the way that it is for several reasons. The first is that this is a Voltage dependant process and he wanted to minimize current flow in the WFC, utilizing stainless steel winding wire provides more resistance per linear foot which increases the total winding resistance thereby giving him less current flow. SS wire though is non magnetic and therefore works just like copper wire but with more resistance. The second reason is that he wanted to maximize the total inductance and capacitance in the VIC, more capacitance and inductance equals lower inherent resonant frequency also by keeping the interwinding capacitance as high as he could and the WFC capacitance as low as possible( hence the tube within tube design that minimizes capacitance compared to parallel plates) the fuelcell capacitance will not make to much difference with self resonance of the device. The bifilar windings are there to increase total inductance, when the end of one of the bifilar wind is connected back to the second wire start it quadruples the inductance and greatly increases capacitance (as Tesla shows in his patent 512340) The output is split into 2 bifilar coils because a single bifilar wound coil would not be able to handle the voltage between the wires. Which brings us to the third reason. This is a High Voltage transformer and I mean 40,000 volts high, it is dangerous, in order to contain the HV the transformer is wound in small segments starting from one end, you do not wind back and forth across the bobbin like normal. the wire going down to the bottom of each segment needs to be isolated with a small piece of mylar tape and the entire outside should be coated with epoxy the output leads should really be made of spark plug wire that feed the WFC. Remember it is High Voltage, winding HV transformers is tricky if you have never made one before it will be tough. The two bobbins are again to separate the two flyback windings because of the voltage, These two windings need to be on the core in the proper polarity for it to work right, when it is working right the output of each flyback winding will go in opposite directions across the WFC (+ and -). The diode shown in Stanley's patent can go between the two leads at one end of the transformer and the two leads at the other end can have the spark plug wires attached for the WFC.
Now because this coil set has both inductance and capacitance it will have an inherent resonant frequency that if you run this at, it will minimize the power required to drive it, thereby again minimizing power usage. If the capacitance of the WFC is low it will have little effect on the resonant frequency. At least this is how I see it, I may not be totally correct but I think it is about as complete a theory as I've seen around here.
I hope this helps
Room3327
Thanks Room3327. You have brought out some very good points.
403FR wire has a lot of iron and is magnetic just like the rest of the 400 series.
Meyer stated that what he called "resonance" meant "oscillation" of the water molecule - not necessarily a true LC resonance like most think of when they hear the word "resonance".
Grumpy,
Thank you for the kind words. Are you saying Stan called out 403 stainless for the transformer? I don't recall that in reading his stuff but I don't have time to reread it right now. If he didn't call out 403 I would be inclined to use 300 series stainless wire to build out of.
You could be right about the resonance I certainly don't know everything.
Quote from: Room3327 on January 24, 2009, 03:34:46 PM
Grumpy,
Thank you for the kind words. Are you saying Stan called out 403 stainless for the transformer? I don't recall that in reading his stuff but I don't have time to reread it right now. If he didn't call out 403 I would be inclined to use 300 series stainless wire to build out of.
You could be right about the resonance I certainly don't know everything.
403FR was for the wire and is what Dankie has obtained.
Early core was ferrite per Meyer's patent - not sure about later ones.
Anyone using electromagnetic resonance in the VIC transformer is on the wrong path.
Also, early version were 1000v - I think - maybe lower as the 1N1198 diode, I think only goes to 600vdc or maybe it was 1200vdc - can't recall.
It was my understanding that he chose the 430F/FR wire for BOTH the added resistance AND the magnetic properties.
Just the bifilar chokes are the SS wire and the rest is regular magnet wire.
The SS wire is part of the core. Isn't that why it's wound on the inner layer? My understanding, or maybe he said it in one of the videos, is that the bifilar windings magnetic field is increased using this method to help hold back amperage flow. But then I don't have any experience winding coils.
I think Dankie or someone is going to have to build one that's modular and take measurements with a good lcr meter. I say modular so the bifilar can be changed easily without rebuilding the whole dam thing because I don't think anyone knows how to the calculations when the coil becomes part of the core due to the magnetic properties of the wire.
Mikemongo
QuoteIt was my understanding that he chose the 430F/FR wire for BOTH the added resistance AND the magnetic properties.
Yes, I also understood it that way from his papers. I think using magnetic wire (430F) has the advantage to additionally help increasing the inductance, as the wire itself acts like a "ferrite" core and increases the magnetic field.
QuoteAlso, early version were 1000v - I think - maybe lower as the 1N1198 diode, I think only goes to 600vdc or maybe it was 1200vdc - can't recall.
I think there lies the real keypoint. Some time ago, I also studied deeply Stan's papers.
And I came to a different idea, how his VIC functions. And This allows very high voltages (40KV) but with a diode of only 600VDC, which Stan described.
It has been stated before the bifliars in his paper are wrongly connected. Well are they?
Let's look at it closer. If the coils are connected as suggested by Room3327, then they work so, that one has a plus 20kV at the WFC and the other a -20kV. But as we know, and as many have already found out, this high voltage at the cell will also produce dramatic resistive losses in the water. Additionally the diode of only 600V wouldn't make sense, as it would surely immediately blow up. But what's interesting is, that
the diodes he suggested are made to withstand quite a lot of amperage!
Another IMHO
the main trash factor for the + - coil theory
is the fact that he wound his coils bifilar. If they would have been wound bifilar with one coil going + and the other coil going -. Then the potential difference between neighbouring wires of the two coils would be tens of kV. And surely no enamelled wire (like Stan used) would be able to withstand these voltages...And there is no way in winding a bifilar coil, without this huge potential differences between neighbouring wires except one: Both coils step up the voltage in the same direction, and on the same absolute potential levels!
These are the points, why I suggested he really wound the VIC so, that one of the bifilar coil would put e.g. +20KV on the WFC and the other one also +20KV! Both the same polarity!
Now the diode only has to withstand the voltage from the secondary (the third coil), so 600VDC would be enough.
Now how should this work?
Well first the circuit starts step by step to generate the high voltage. As both electrodes have the same polarity, electrons get sucked from the water in the coils. Well it's not completely correct, that both electrodes do have the same polarity, as the voltage of the secondary will be seen as voltage difference on the plates (this voltage difference is what you see as the "step charging"-voltage on the WFC, what you don't see is, that the absolute potential of the WFC rises very high). This allows the water molecules to align themselves in the cell.
As the bondings in the water molecules are due to sharing electrons, the bonding of some molecules get weakened if the electrons get stripped, as they don't anymore have something to share...
Now is the time, to tear the already weakened molecules apart by issuing a strong Potential difference on the electrodes. This happens when the stopping of the pulses of the transformer happens, and also the bifilars which were pos before now become very negative (flyback). This tears the molecules apart and also impresses an electron backrush into the cell. E.g. for a very short time quite a strong current will flow...
In this case, his "resonance" would be nothing else, than the correct timing of the transformer circuit, e.g. similar like in every other common flyback too. So that you make sure, the current will never flow in the other direction, as long as you are in the step up. As soon as the current goes down to 0 you immediately give out the next pulse...
Well this was just on of my ideas I had some time ago about the VIC. I did quit with Stan due to other things. So it is certainly not to be taken as the ultimate solution, but just as another idea, why it could make sense, that both bifilars have the same polarity...
It would be interesting to know, what others thinks about that?
@Room3327: Especially your opinion as professional in flyback circuits would interest me. As I have not much experience in this kind of circuits, especially a flyback in such a "strange" configuration. For me it's quite puzzling to think how exactly such a flyback will perform, as when it is like in my idea, the bifilars will cancel each other out, and will therefore not be seen as inductance in the WFC circuit. But they will certainly share the magnetic field with the primary and secondary and therefore get a voltage induced...
This means, any amperage which will flow through both the bifilars will not alter the magnetic field of the core (well except the current that will flow due to the "sucking" electrons, as this current will not flow as an usual "close circuit" current). So the bifilars act only as an absolute voltage step-up down from the WFC. And the WFC itself sees only the voltage from the secondary. And as is said by conventional physics: The absolute potential is not relevant (Actually you can't even define an absolute potential, as you can only sense/measure potential differences as E-Fields). But this opinion I personally strongly reject. E.g. if you have two faraday cages, one on a much higher potential level than the other, e.g. 100 MV higher, then for you there's no possibility to find out in which cage you are, you can't feel the "absolute" potential. Everything according to current physics behaves the same, no matter in which cage you are. But I have the suggestion that there is a difference in behaviour...
One could also suggest, that this absolute voltage up down on the WFC has some serious effect on the water. E.g. Dr Stifflers work here goes in a similar direction, and already Tesla described how to split water with just putting one wire into the water! So maybe this principle can be improved by having additionally a voltage between the plates (from the secondary), to keep the molecules aligned, or even the ions seperated.
Another interesting thing would then be, why using magnetic wire (430F), is that if you wound them bifilar as I suggested , the coils would usually not perfectly cancel each other. JLN made some interesting tests with some bifilars/bucking coils and showed that they still have some inductive effects, which are quite special.
I think this is due to the fact, that right at the place where the two coils are very near each other some magnetic interrelation does exist. The actual core in the middle is too far away and will have almost no influence on this. But I think if you now use magnetic wire, then as described before the magnetic properties of the wire will help increasing the local field. So the "strange" properties of this bifilar coil should be quite increased. So like that it would make sense using magnetic wire, and not just a bigger core ferrite. Otherwise it wouldn't, at least to me...
So anyone which could organize some enamelled 430F wire, could do a nice test. Wire a bifilar out of this magnetic wire, and at the same time wire an identical bifilar but with conventional copper wire. Then take a little PWM circuit and an oscilloscope and test how these two coils behave, and how their behaviour differs.
What puzzles me is his mentioning of the "bidirectional" wired primary winding. What did he mean by that?
If it is meant bifilar, and also wired like in the second pic in this thread, it wouldn't make sense. As then the primary would cancel it's own magnetic field, and therefore never ever produce any voltage in the secondary...
Anyway the second pic has to be wrong, as it is shown, the primary gets connected to the cell, which is not true...
Quote from: mikemongo on January 24, 2009, 04:55:35 PM
It was my understanding that he chose the 430F/FR wire for BOTH the added resistance AND the magnetic properties.
Just the bifilar chokes are the SS wire and the rest is regular magnet wire.
The SS wire is part of the core. Isn't that why it's wound on the inner layer? My understanding, or maybe he said it in one of the videos, is that the bifilar windings magnetic field is increased using this method to help hold back amperage flow. But then I don't have any experience winding coils.
I think Dankie or someone is going to have to build one that's modular and take measurements with a good lcr meter. I say modular so the bifilar can be changed easily without rebuilding the whole dam thing because I don't think anyone knows how to the calculations when the coil becomes part of the core due to the magnetic properties of the wire.
Mikemongo
I was thinking along those lines as well Mikemongo , the wire is very slightly magnetic when you put a refrigerator magnet close to it , it also has 19.75 ohms per foot .
@All
Good posts you guys you are really using your heads. But there is another explanation for the SS wire on the inner winding that no one has considered, it's always funner to make magic out of things. The purpose for the SS wire in the the inner core probably has more to do with balancing the two flyback coils. Remember SS has more resistance then copper, the turn length on the inner bobbin is much shorter then the turn length on the outer bobbin. To balance the coil resistance Stan was probably winding the SS on the inner bobbin (shorter total winding length for the same number of turns) and the copper on the outside (longer total winding length ,same number of turns) to balance the impedance's. This would entail nonmagnetic stainless to avoid the magic and incalculable things that would crop up with magnetic SS.
Now lets discuss Stans transformers a little more. I say transformers because he had a number of them and different ways of hooking things up. One method he used was the two transformer approach where he used a input transformer to feed the flyback (his best design I believe). He says the turns ratio was 3 to 1 (on the input transformer), If this is pulsed with 120 volts that would produce about 400 volts at the output of it. That 400 volts is then fed through two inductors to the WFC. The two inductors are on the same core and act as a flyback transformer. The diode in the circuit only see's the reverse voltage of 400 volts and applies that 400 volts across the WFC ( as a DC signal) when the signal is stopped the flyback action occurs and delivers a very HV pulse to the WFC as the field colapses across the flyback coils (the flyback of the input transformer is also added to total flyback voltage and it's resistance is also part of the circuit) the diode is forward biased at this point and it always is, in flyback mode. Thereby allowing a 600 volt diode to be used and still be able to deliver a Very High Voltage pulse to the WFC. So as I see it he was step charging the cell with about 400 volts lining the molecules up and then zapping them with HV to yank them apart.
P.S. By bidirectional he means that the primary wire is wound back and forth on the bobin like most transformers. The flyback is wound unidirectionally, from one end to the other in the segments( in order to contain the HV).
@All
I suppose I should talk about the bifilar coils that Stan used and probably why he used them. If you run a little test that I did, and I did it over and over because I couldn't believe it myself. Wind a small bifilar coil out of any small gauge wire and put it on a core it doesn't really matter what kind. Now take this little coil and measure the inductance across each one of the two windings. You will have L1 and L2 in henrys or millihenrys or whatever. Now tie the starting wire of one coil to the finish wire of the other and measure the inductance across the two free wires. Instead of the reading being L1+L2 it is 2 X L1+L2 or 4 times the inductance of one of the coils. This method, which is Tesla's, is a pretty slick way to increase inductance (it also increases total coil capacitance as well and you can actually run them at there own resonant frequency) . But a bifilar coil, used as a flyback transformer, cannot put out much voltage because of the insulation between wires therefore it is better to build the flyback as 2 separate coils on the same core. If it is built on U core with a bobbin on each leg, the coils are much easier to match and easier to wind. If each coil is wound as a bifilar winding and connected as I said the total inductance is much higher in the finished transformer.
I will be selling 1/5 pounds on ebay for 100$ +
1/5 pounds will have 3500+ feet and will be enough for 3 coils
I will be about 20 times cheaper than any competition on the planet
http://www.a-msystems.com/electronics/wire/stainlesssteelsingletef.aspx
Quote from: dankie on January 25, 2009, 01:50:25 PM
I will be selling 1/5 pounds on ebay for 100$ +
1/5 pounds will have 3500+ feet and will be enough for 3 coils
I will be about 20 times cheaper than any competition on the planet
http://www.a-msystems.com/electronics/wire/stainlesssteelsingletef.aspx
LOL!!! New sales spew, same wire... new packaging... Just a thought... if you have this VIC covered as well as you say you do why not make 3 sell them for a tidy profit as no one else has it as you say. and make your money back that way. As it seems to me you ain't got nothing but a new sales pitch and some drummed up facts based on a video that only you have with regurgitated pictures of a conversation with someone with the same handle as someone who is well respected in the online communittee... not actually stating in his posts what you are talking about... Seems very suspect since you say you have the holy grail in knowledge and you have an abundance of the correct grade base materials... small input on your part in making your "missing link that no-one has perfected yet" would make your money back 10 fold... easy... Or we could see it as it is... someone has an excess of wire that they have come into found a "market" with people who are looking for this sort of material and then trying to flog it off... your horse is dead here stop flogging your wire... CREATE A BLOG... SS wire for sale. and stop posing as anything but a traveling salesman...
QuoteBut a bifilar coil, used as a flyback transformer, cannot put out much voltage because of the insulation between wires therefore it is better to build the flyback as 2 separate coils on the same core.
This is exactly the reason, why I have suggested that maybe they are connected so that both bifilars have the same polarity.
I completely agree, that your idea of the working does make sense. But a lot of ideas do make sense IMHO.
When it goes about Stan, I believe him, that he really wound the VIC, as stated in the first Pic in this thread. And also that this VIC put out a voltage of up to about 40kV. Also the wiring in seperate pieces on the coil does make sense, as this is a common way to wind HV-Flybacks, for obvious reasons, and would surely have made sense, when the output potential was 40kV . And although Stan declared, that he used a special enamelling for his wires: Even good enamelled wires are not able to withstand a lot of voltage. So if he wound the VIC as he described, it is IMHO impossible to have wound them bifilar if they were made so, that they did output different polarities. So from this point it would really only make sense, if they were wound so that both bifilars did have the same polarity. So
IMHO if he really wound the VIC as shown in the first Pic, then the bifilars must have had the same polarity.But at the same time it is shown, that the secondary does have even more turns than the bifilars, so it should actually develop already quite a high voltage. And this voltage would be seen by the bifilars even if they have the same polarity. This is quite confusing...
Well I just could imagine one possible setup which would work. And that is that the secondary has exactly double the voltage of each of the bifilars. Then they could be connected with different polarities and still not have to withstand a lot of voltage. But actually like that the secondary would always cancel the voltage of the bifilars, so that the WFC would never see anything... :-\
Also the diode is missing in this pic. This could just have been neglected, or he really didn't use a diode anymore. One could guess, that if one does saturate the core in one direction, then a diode is not needed anymore, as the core saturation will act like a diode on the inductors on the core, where the inductance for a current flow in one direction is much higher than in the other direction (just like in Tesla's patent, where he used this principle to rectify AC).
When one does look at the history of his VIC development (e.g. see here http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=751 (http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=751)) it is interesting that as soon as he introduced a resistor to the negative electrode of the WFC, he got a dramatic increase in the production. He called it the "Electron Inhibitor". This is IMHO the same effect as the people here trying to "coat" their cells. By this coating they introduce a resistance.
What effect would this resistor have. Surely some voltage would drop across the resistor during the Step-Up. So the WFC would be on an overall positive potential with both electrodes, but there would still remain a voltage difference across the electrodes! So by adjusting the resistor, one could select how much voltage difference should be across the WFC, and how big should the positive offset be, of both plates. Actually with the bifilars with the same polarity the same would be the case, except that no energy would be wasted in the resistor.
Now during the flyback, the electron flow would be diminished on the negative side, as the resistor would block the current, whereas on the positive side, the full current could flow (remember during the flyback the positive side would be negativ and the negative positive). And by this current flow I don't mean conventional closed circuit current flow, but the current flow due to different electrostatic potentials. E.g. the same as when you touch a doorknob and get a buzz, when you walked over a carpet before. This "buzz-circuit" also didn't need a closed circuit, as it only equalized the different electrostatic potentials.
So like that you have a tremendous inrush of electrons (short but high amp flow) into the WFC, but none of this current flowing through the WFC, e.g. no resistive losses. As I stated before, this is very very similar to Dr Stifflers circuit for water splitting.
"Unfortunately", the resistor would also make sense, with the bifilars in opposite polarity. Then the resistor would act merely as a current blocker, so that the inductive kickback voltage could develop and is not immediately eaten up by the current flowing. But then, a lot of the voltage would be seen by the resistor...
Well, I just love unconventional theories...
Quote from: CrazyEwok on January 26, 2009, 11:23:33 PM
LOL!!! New sales spew, same wire... new packaging... Just a thought... if you have this VIC covered as well as you say you do why not make 3 sell them for a tidy profit as no one else has it as you say. and make your money back that way. As it seems to me you ain't got nothing but a new sales pitch and some drummed up facts based on a video that only you have with regurgitated pictures of a conversation with someone with the same handle as someone who is well respected in the online communittee... not actually stating in his posts what you are talking about... Seems very suspect since you say you have the holy grail in knowledge and you have an abundance of the correct grade base materials... small input on your part in making your "missing link that no-one has perfected yet" would make your money back 10 fold... easy... Or we could see it as it is... someone has an excess of wire that they have come into found a "market" with people who are looking for this sort of material and then trying to flog it off... your horse is dead here stop flogging your wire... CREATE A BLOG... SS wire for sale. and stop posing as anything but a traveling salesman...
At least I'm doing something while you just complain and cry and wtch Alex Jones ... At least I got something to sale and its not crack ... Im just working on my stuff , once in a while I do get a small order and it helps .
I finally sold some here lol , 80% of getting my money back . You would be surprised @ how poor the people are these days , just getting your money back is hard enough lol ...
My horse if far from dead , its starting to run faster and faster . Its you people's horses that are dead . You have no tools , no will , no knowledge , no hope , no ideas vvtf your talkign about ... You already said you preferred doing nothing rather than working on the VIC ... Of course you think buying wire and making a VIC is stupid ...
Having the same voltage on both sides of the WFC accomplishes nothing. When I said he has the connections wrong in the patent I meant that if the circuit is connected as shown in the patent, the magnetic fields produced by the action would be in opposition to each other and cancel each other out and you would get no flyback action with the VIC. When people apply for a patent they almost always do two things, they try to cover as many bases as they can to make the patent broadly applicable to as many things as they can think of, and they try to show something in the patent to make it a little cryptic so any bean brain out there can't copy their patent right off the paper. And sometimes they just plain make a mistake with the drawings. What good would it do to have two magnetic fields canceling each other, when what your after requires them. Please don't try to make this stuff way more esoteric then it is.
Dankie,
Don't give up! Try some of what we have been talking about and wind a transformer out of magnetic wire and see what you get, Thats the only way to prove to yourself what is going on.
Room thx for the kind words , good observation Room :)
I believe tho Stanley Meyers is trying to tell us something .. to teach us something ...
Yes I agree with you room , here is my hypothesis on this issue . Somehow I believe Both the polarization by HV and "particle oscillation" occur sequentially in an instant of time ... Forget about that stuff that the VIC fits into the injector , I was wrong on that one ...
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3240-real-injector-vic-coil-6-1-a-2.html
Watch this video ...
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=wZdtgb1VJ58
This is from a Tom bearden , it can be found @ the orion project site
From: Precursor Engineering and the Falsification of Modern Physics by: Thomas Eugene Bearden
With this more advanced understanding of what an "observable" actually is, then when we now introduce a bit of "sharp little gradient tickling" the vacuum in a local area, per P.A.M. Dirac, that tickling will produce negative energies in that tickled
vacuum as well. And that means that we are adding in "negative probabilities" into that bubbling structure (say, a container of water, in each water molecule structure) so that the entire bubble structure for the water molecule starts "backing back down" its ongoing creation chain -- in short, it starts "unhappening" at its "highest positive energy end". If we just use a gross pattern of tickling, we get "overall" unhappening, so the last and highest positive energy thing that made the water molecule possible -- i.e., the OH bond positive probability -- now has much-reduced overall probability. The net probability is the summation of (1) the usual positive probability and (2) the added negative probability due to tickling. Hence statistically the water molecules in the tickled area start "falling apart" as their
OH bonds now have much less probability, and so they just start "unhappening" statistically as their OH bonds start vanishing statistically. So intermixed bubbles of H2 and O2 gas (from those molecules whose OH bond "unhappened") begin appearing throughout the vacuum-tickled "water". But these mixtures are not very combustible or explosive because in that altered (tickled) region
now it is very difficult to form the OH bond. Aha! But if we then pipe the resulting gas bubbles out of that local tickled-vacuum
region -- i.e., out of the water container itself-- and a few inches away and into the combustion chamber of a nearby combustion engine, then the vacuum in that combustion chamber is "normal" and not being "tickled". Hence the OH bond is back in its full normal probability, and so the mix of O2 and H2 will burn and power the engine, giving no exhaust except water vapor.
From: The Birth of New Technology
Opposite polarity Voltage Wave burst as to Dynamic Voltage Stimulation is simply produced when Programmable Variable Pulse-Width Pulse-Train Waveform is allowed to be electrically transmitted through and beyond Resonant Charging Chokes Stages that are not only electrically connected in sequential order but likewise magnetically linked by Inductance Coupling field. The resultant ever increasing pulsating opposite electrical voltage fields having superimposed thereon counter opposing Rippling Voltage-Surfaces [Dynamic Electrica1 Charging Effect], now, set ups, causes, and applies ever increasing (rubberbanding effect) Pulsating Opposite Electrical Stress across Water Gap encouraging "Particle Oscillation" as a "Energy Generator" by way of pulsating “Electrical Stress" as the combustible gas atom particles of the water molecule undergo "Particle Deflection" farthest from the point of "State of Equilibrium" and returning back to "Stable State of Equilibrium" during-pulse off-time for repeated "Snapping Action" (Rubberbanding effect) in accordance with bi-polar Voltage Rippling Effect. The greater the Electrical Stress applied, the greater amount of thermal explosive energy is released from Resonant Water Gap. Increasing energy-yield still further is accomplished by increasing the number of Resonant Charging Choke Stages in "Sequential Order" since the total number of Multi-Coil Magnet bifilar coils serially electrically connected together are sequentially electrically linked to an equal number of serially electrically aligned Stainless Steel Resonant Coils allowing each/both bifilar coil assembly to be electrically and magnetically energized in the same progressive direction toward Water Gap and away from blocking diode keeping amp-surge to a minimal level while enhancing Voltage Potential of Electrical Stress as additional Dual Choke Coils are included in the stacked coil-array forming Voltage Intensifier Circuit, once again.in.
Dankie,
Yes the more coils you stick into the flyback circuit the higher the output voltage goes. But it is just like adding more turns to the 2 coils already in the circuit thats all it is doing, and it will give you a higher flyback voltage.
QuoteHaving the same voltage on both sides of the WFC accomplishes nothing. When I said he has the connections wrong in the patent I meant that if the circuit is connected as shown in the patent, the magnetic fields produced by the action would be in opposition to each other and cancel each other out and you would get no flyback action with the VIC.
Well, as I described, this would actually not be the case. There surely is still a flyback effect in the bifilars, if they are on the same core as the primary/secondary, as then they share it's magnetic field. But as I told before, the flyback voltage of the bifilars would be the same polarity. So the WFC would then always only see the voltage difference of the secondary, but on a fast changig modified overall potential, caused by the bifilars.
And IMHO Dr Stifflers circuit shows (and already Tesla did mention this), that even having just the same "one wire" voltage in a WFC does split water, if one does it right. And my suggestion was, that having additionally the secondary voltage across even could improves this as it pre-seperates the ions.
Sure maybe this theory is not correct. But as long as nobody was able to replicate Stan's VIC, every theory is as good as the other, at least IMHO.
And there are many many possible theories...
BTW: In his drawings, he used both ways of bifilars polarity in the patents. In one patent that way, in another patent the other way..
What really puzzles me, is that, as I mentioned, the coil setup in Fig 1 doesn't really make sense. E.g.:
* The secondary is wound with more turns than the bifilars, and so will very probably output quite a high voltage. Also the splitting of the winding in a lot of pieces does make sense therefore, for insulation reasons, as used in any conventional HV-Flyback.
But if the secondary does output such a high voltage, the insulation of the bifilars, which are connected to it, could never stand it!
* The bifilars are also wound in a HV-Flyback manner, namely seperated into different sections. But as has been stated also by Room3327, this would not make sense, as the voltage the enamellation of the bifilars could withstand is very low. So either you wouldn't need the sectioning (when the bifilars only generate a small voltage), or the high voltage of the bifilars would destroy the enamellation.
The only solution, if one would think of a conventional flyback action for all three coils (secondary and the bifilars) would be, that the VIC wasn't made as Stan described it in this pic. Namely, that the bifilars were not bifilar...
But as has been seen by his "Gas Ionizer Cavity", whose Stan original has surfaced, his drawings/descriptions were exactly what he had done.
It's also interesting, that he only has three distinct Sections in this "Gas Ionizer Cavity"-VIC. Probabely due to the fact, that the used end-voltages were lower, as the dielectric breakdown voltage of air is much lower than that of water, and you obviously wouldn't wanna, that the electrodes just arc over.
The only solution, if one would think of a conventional flyback action for all three coils (secondary and the bifilars) would be, that the VIC wasn't made as Stan described it in this pic. Namely, that the bifilars were not bifilar...
Shanti,
Good post, I agree with you that the bifilar coils were probably not bifilar in the flyback. I sure wouldn't have designed it that way, but remember in a tied back on itself bifilar coil, the maximum voltage between wires can only be one half of the imposed voltage, although I don't see how that would help in this case as I believe the voltages would have been too high anyway.
Quote from: Room3327 on January 28, 2009, 01:06:48 PM
The only solution, if one would think of a conventional flyback action for all three coils (secondary and the bifilars) would be, that the VIC wasn't made as Stan described it in this pic. Namely, that the bifilars were not bifilar...
Shanti,
Good post, I agree with you that the bifilar coils were probably not bifilar in the flyback. I sure wouldn't have designed it that way, but remember in a tied back on itself bifilar coil, the maximum voltage between wires can only be one half of the imposed voltage, although I don't see how that would help in this case as I believe the voltages would have been too high anyway.
Why so worried about dielectric breakdown of the wire ??
I believe each cavity has the resonant chokes wrapped in sequantial order , blue/red/blue/red ...
Dankie,
Have you ever triggered a stungun and seen the blue spark jump between terminals, stunguns start at 50,000 volts and go to about 500,000 volts. 50,000 volts will jump a 1/2 inch air gap easy. In the stungun the gap is in there to protect the transformer( and put on a show for the attacker) otherwise the voltage would find other paths through the coil to arc through and you burn out the coil. If for instance the bobbin has 8 segments to it, and you are building a 40,000 volt transformer, that would put 40,000/8 or 5,000 volts across each segment how do you even contain that voltage with 300 volt transformer wire or even the HV 600 volt stuff. If the depth of the segment is .250, from the bottom windings to the top windings of that segment there is 5,000 volts across a .250 gap are you getting the picture. that is why special things should be done as Grumpy stated in a different thread, like put it in a box and fill it with tar type stuff. and I suggested sparkplug wire for the output. Mylar tape is really a requisite for HV transformers. The segments are not resonant cavities or resonant anythings, it is to partition the High voltage to try and prevent arc over which can be death to a transformer of this type.
I have a hard time getting my mind around what is happening in the bifilar...
if it is wired like in this diagram, then what is happening in each coil?
I'll refer to TX5 as the "positive" choke and TX4 as the "negative" choke
My understanding is -- the primary (TX1) generates a flux field which causes the secondary (TX2) to induce a voltage field relative in strength to the number of windings, etc. yea yea got that
So now, voltage is being applied to the start of the positive choke. Normally, a coil with voltage applied to it will induce an even higher voltage at the output. Since there is the negative choke however, I don't think any voltage drop/increase occurs, because the opposite inductances cancel each other out.
When I try to imagine the circuit in action, I see the + volts being applied, and current starting to flow from ground, through the "negative" choke, towards the water cell. Some current will jump the water gap and flow into the positive choke... at this instant, current flow across the water gap is opposed because of opposing magnetic fields generated by the chokes.... one thing though did Meyers use an air core or ferrite core for his chokes? If it was an air core this would suggest they are not designed to "choke" current but are more to induce voltage.
Quote from: Farlander on January 28, 2009, 07:38:00 PM
I have a hard time getting my mind around what is happening in the bifilar...
if it is wired like in this diagram, then what is happening in each coil?
I'll refer to TX5 as the "positive" choke and TX4 as the "negative" choke
My understanding is -- the primary (TX1) generates a flux field which causes the secondary (TX2) to induce a voltage field relative in strength to the number of windings, etc. yea yea got that
So now, voltage is being applied to the start of the positive choke. Normally, a coil with voltage applied to it will induce an even higher voltage at the output. Since there is the negative choke however, I don't think any voltage drop/increase occurs, because the opposite inductances cancel each other out.
When I try to imagine the circuit in action, I see the + volts being applied, and current starting to flow from ground, through the "negative" choke, towards the water cell. Some current will jump the water gap and flow into the positive choke... at this instant, current flow across the water gap is opposed because of opposing magnetic fields generated by the chokes.... one thing though did Meyers use an air core or ferrite core for his chokes? If it was an air core this would suggest they are not designed to "choke" current but are more to induce voltage.
Meyers used an EI core , not an air core .
That pulsing core design is most likely a laminated silicon steel EI core or a U core
QuoteI believe each cavity has the resonant chokes wrapped in sequantial order , blue/red/blue/red ...
QuoteThe segments are not resonant cavities or resonant anythings, it is to partition the High voltage to try and prevent arc over which can be death to a transformer of this type.
Ahh I see. I think what Dankie meant was, that he didn't wind them bifilar, but that at every section he switched the coil. E.g. The first section was just purely the first coil, the second the second, the third section again the first coil, ...
Sure, then it would make sense. You would loose a lot of the bifilar effect, as the capacity would drastically decrease, but at least you would still get some capacitance between the coils, at least more, than winding them seperately.
Stan always speaks of his RLC Resonance. But the way he speaks of it doesn't make sense, as his blocking diode, actually prevents any oscillation. But this would not be the case if the bifilars were bifilar, or at least have some capacitance in between them. As then, this capacitance between the bifilars would bypass the diode and allow an oscillation...
Quotethat is why special things should be done as Grumpy stated in a different thread, like put it in a box and fill it with tar type stuff
Sure, this would be obvious to me. Either you close the openings of the bobbin sections again after the wiring with a good dielectric, or you immerse the whole bobbin e.g. into some oil. I would do the second. You could also buy some special HV-Isolation-Epoxy and cast the bobbin in it in a vacuum, but this is also quite pricy. Therefore I would prefer using some oil.
QuoteThat pulsing core design is most likely a laminated silicon steel EI core or a U core
According to Dynodon in the waterfuelcell forum, who saw the real Stan stuff, it was just a simple "I"-Core. But the core layout is IMHO only of secondary importance. Important would be, that it is correctly dimensioned (material usable for the frequencies, core doesn't go into saturation, ...), to yield a good flyback transformer.
To go back to my same bifilar polarity theory: ;D
I stated that it maybe would make sense, to positively charge the water to weaken the bonds, or better said to ionize the water, prior to giving it a HV Pulse.
The funny thing is Stan himself wrote something like this in his patents (e.g. US4,936,961):
Quote[...]In the process electrons are extracted from the water bath; electrons are not consumed nor are electrons introduced into the water bath by the circuit as electrons are conventionally introduced in an electrolysis process. There may nevertheless occur a leakage current through the water. Those hydrogen atoms missing electrons become neutralized; and atoms are liberated from the water. The charged atoms and electrons are attracted to opposite polarity voltage zones created between the capacitor plates. The electrons formerly shared by atoms in the water co-valent bond are reallocated such that neutral elemental gases are liberated.[...]
If you use two chokes slightly out of tune to the same input voltage the voltage arriving at the cell will be a very sharp pulse. The mismatched impedance of the chokes have the voltage appear at the cell in a very short duration pulse. This spike is way up there in the emwave energy spectrum. Ionization potential. This is gained from a very low frequency scource.
I just uploaded first ever videos showing a working spiral spool spinner making twisted bifilar wire. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/805268116/spool-spinner-makes-axially-spiraled-wire-twisted-0
Unless you found a way to twist thousands of feet of wire then none of you have followed Stans VIC guide.
I describe why I think it will work in the link above. Ron