Oke here's another half baked one.
Again the idea is fairly simple, Using two radially magnetized (one would also work but less torque) you get such a field that will produce a net torque on a current carrying wire. As the conductor is rotating the flux will remain constant at all angles thus no induced current will be generated and there will be no back drag (lenz's law). So the loop will accelerate to INFINITY AND BEYOOOOOND..
As always feedback is appreciated.
well seams an easy task to build a proof of concept if u dare :)
Uh-huh..uh-huh..yes...
What you have described is essentially a warped Marinov "Siberian Coilu" motor with the rotating ring replaced with a PM, I think. I have experimented some with this and similar configurations and I agree there are some strange things going on. I believe I have demonstrated, about 9 years ago, a partial LL violation based on this configuration that broli describes. The apparatus was kind of complex to build and is now, of course, lost...but I'm working on another one, off and on.
This is an infinite pole dc motor. Replace the copper with neo magnets. The metals in permanent magnets exchange electrons in a predictable dynamic. This is no different than a conventional current without the heating probelms due to the crystallization of the metals with secured proton spin field alignment. This design will run as long as heating and vibration do not disrupt the crystals.
Quote from: TinselKoala on February 02, 2009, 05:28:06 PM
Uh-huh..uh-huh..yes...
What you have described is essentially a warped Marinov "Siberian Coilu" motor with the rotating ring replaced with a PM, I think. I have experimented some with this and similar configurations and I agree there are some strange things going on. I believe I have demonstrated, about 9 years ago, a partial LL violation based on this configuration that broli describes. The apparatus was kind of complex to build and is now, of course, lost...but I'm working on another one, off and on.
what was the complexity in it?
@smart monkey
so u basically say the neo's are better tahn copper in electricity conduction? interesting statement
Nice and old idea,
But when you try to go on and to make any real construction, even real drawings ... then you will find out only next and next big problems after anothers >:(
Try to draw it with shaft inside of inner rotor whats connected with outer rotor and all needed bearings, frames, all what must to run or fixed, then ...
... try to add flux returning (ferrous) parts, if you like to get more serious results,
At that at least today it is impossible to magnetize Neo magnets likely, you have to use segments.
When you are placing the last segment (its very difficult :-\ but OK, you can do it) - you will find out that your nice ring did come totaly very loose >:(
Myself I experimented with such kind of magnets when tried to construct an linear motor/actuator
But you try,
Perhaps you have more luck than previously tryed guys 8)
cheers,
khabe
I'm having a hard time locating some of those radially magnetized rings. Anyone have a good source?
Yeah that's the main issue right now. I get a lot of patents and papers about processes but find little actual products.
Forgot to add that the smaller the distance between the magnets the better. There's no way this field would be uniform in practice, but by also decreasing the flux area towards 0 one can have little to no lenz effect.
Quote from: broli on February 02, 2009, 06:58:02 PM
Yeah that's the main issue right now. I get a lot of patents and papers about processes but find little actual products.
Forgot to add that the smaller the distance between the magnets the better. There's no way this field would be uniform in practice, but by also decreasing the flux area towards 0 one can have little to no lenz effect.
If used as a motor, there is no pole to pull to or push from for thrust. As a generator, it has a constant or near constant field, and would generate little or no power. However, if you spin coils in there, between the magnets, and spin the output of the coils and use a stationary brush to tap the coils power output, it might act as a type of faraday generator?
After I went to bed for sleep I realized that a radial field wasn't needed at all. So here is the method to use with axial magnetized ring magnets. See below. Obviously the lower part has to be weakened a bit for maximum effect but this is easy peasy by putting it in a magnetic pot. See simulation.
Damn it's 5am and I can't sleep. My head is raising with countless experiments that could be done to confirm this. Tomorrow I'll head to my local iron shop for some magnets.
Here's another excotic idea that needs some high temp superconducting foil. Just wrap foil around the lower part of the loop and cool it down. This will give rise to the meissner effect which will oppose the magnetic field and make it bend around it thus no field is seen by the moving charge in the wire and no lorentz force is applied on the lower part.
I still can't believe how ridiculously simple this is. Must...experiment...ASAP.
@broli
Try electromagnetic linear accelerator. Bullet should be polarized as shown.
Ah! The magnets of post 9 are to be found in your average dumped microwave oven.
As featured on many street corners, and certainly in recycle centres. Getting into
the magnetron is a bit of a trip, but they are there. Two per oven.
Not very big - 3 inch outside diameter at the most. Probably a bit less. Ferrite.
Paul.
Tanks for the heads up Paul. I bought one bar of ferrite magnet just to prove there's an unidirectional net force when the upper wire part is closer to the magnet or the lower part is shielded or both. I wanted to buy those ring magnets but the local magnet dealer is a huge RIP OFF. Ebay would be much wiser.
I'm going to try to setup an experiment with this Ferrite bar and see what it gives. Obviously Lenz will be doing its thing as the field is not the same for every slice like the ring ones. But the point of demonstration is the net Force. I would also appreciate others setting up similar experiments. I have very limited resources and it would be great if more people have a running setup.
I have meanwhile built a frame based on a jnaudin experiment. Tomorrow I'll try and get a pc PSU for power supply and finish off the rest of the setup.
Meanwhile below is another design + sim. With the previous one I had to deal with commutator and brushes. But this one does away with those.
i am glad u r buildng it!nice..fast idea followed by fast experimentation.We should all do more like this.If i got it right in the last design u can wind up the stator with wire so it will look like toroidal coil on a magnet,no?
Below is another design of this. It's pretty simple. Do you guys think the reason of rotation is correct?
Hi all,
Alert !!!
If you take apart the magnetron never break the ceramic pin at the front which extends into resonance chamber.
This ceramic contains beryllium-oxide which is the most toxic substance ever used in electronics.
Inhaling of dust or even touching it and bringing this stuff in contact with small open skin-infringements endangers your life !
Be very careful
Regards
Kator01
Thanks for letting me know Kator! Something so dangerous to human health shouldn't be used in consumer technology, but I guess profit comes before concern.
But I was changing my plan anyway and this convinced me even further. I found that speaker magnets are nothing bu ring magnets. I took a part the magnetic case and found ring magnets in them. In a few days I'm going to go to a recyling center to get myself a very large broken speaker and salvage the magnets out of it. It's a disgrace that a ring magnet as big as my palm costs around 20 EURO while every kind of big sized speaker has them.
Quote from: broli on February 08, 2009, 03:51:05 AM
Thanks for letting me know Kator! Something so dangerous to human health shouldn't be used in consumer technology, but I guess profit comes before concern.
But I was changing my plan anyway and this convinced me even further. I found that speaker magnets are nothing bu ring magnets. I took a part the magnetic case and found ring magnets in them. In a few days I'm going to go to a recyling center to get myself a very large broken speaker and salvage the magnets out of it. It's a disgrace that a ring magnet as big as my palm costs around 20 EURO while every kind of big sized speaker has them.
Speaker magnets often have a round slot into which the voice coil is put. The magnetism
is intended to be ACROSS this slot, rather than in/out of the device.
Quote from: Paul-R on February 08, 2009, 10:01:23 AM
Speaker magnets often have a round slot into which the voice coil is put. The magnetism
is intended to be ACROSS this slot, rather than in/out of the device.
http://www.miknatisgrup.com/technical_info_genel.htm
Which one of those do you mean.
Quote from: broli on February 08, 2009, 12:07:00 PM
http://www.miknatisgrup.com/technical_info_genel.htm
Which one of those do you mean?
No. 3. Radially magnetised.
Have a look at this:
http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/images/electromagnetic_devices-loudspeaker.gif
You will see their intention; to provide a field across this slot, rather
than throwing the field out into the air.
Paul.
Wow I fully understand what you mean! You are 100% correct, the field across these pieces is already radial. Which means we could just go back to the first design using this speaker trick.
Here's a must read website. http://www.moraalacoustics.com/MagnetAssy.htm
Instead of letting the current go in and out of the page from that perspective to push the coil up and down. The idea I proposed has the current going up and down from that perspective. Thus from a 3rd dimensional view a net torque is seen without any changing flux thus no lenz effect. I will make a diagram of this. Also this thread seems to be a bit too quiet. This idea is so simple and so logical (at least to me) that lots should be trying it. Since this is my real first experiment I'm going at a snails pace, but I'm getting there.
Edit: I just realized that the first design shouldn't work as the force on both sides is in the same direction and not opposite. I slipped up with the Lorentz force cross product. But all the other design's have correct logic.
Quote from: broli on February 08, 2009, 12:48:25 PM
Wow I fully understand what you mean! You are 100% correct, the field across these pieces is already radial. Which means we could just go back to the first design using this speaker trick.
It might pay you to have a telephone conversation with a senior research & development person
at B & W, who are on the south coast of England (Shoreham, Sussex). They might be willing
to put a few magnet samples in the post to you:
http://www.bowers-wilkins.co.uk/display.aspx?infid=1427
Paul.
So far I did numerous experiments that show that a rotating magnet does not have a changing magnetic field (so no current is induced or dragged rotation like an induction motor). Tomorrow I might do the actual experiment shown in one of the designs. The problem is that this whole setup is unbelievably amateurish. And I don't know whether the 12V/5A car battery charger will do so I'm afraid of negative results due to mall engineering. I need bigger magnets, more tools and electrical equipment. I'm sure there are many here that can put this relatively simple setup together in mere hours.
Hi broli !
I don't see the way this works cause
wire to be able to rotate needs to encounter some net mag. field change in ammount or polarity ...
Field of current in inductor will allso come out as uniform mag. field.
Force here can't be developed as rotational but force towards or away from magnets.
adding or canceling magnetic field lines allso does not help cause there is again no net change in ammount or polarity of field along the rotators path
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/shpmm1.htm ...not working as such...but good idea anyhow.
except maybe Searl S-Vector but isn't that High Voltage electrostatic vector...
can you please explain further
Wiz
If I misunderstand you please correct me. You're saying, there has to be a changing magnetic flux in order for the wire to move? If that's what you're saying then I do not fully agree. It uses the lorentz force law which you can simply check with your right hand. If this doesn't work then a dc motor doesn't work either, but since a dc motor works this should work as well ;D.
Btw the link with Stefan's idea is a bit non related I believe.
And I would be glad to explain further if needed.
PS: the very first design was a blunder, as far as I know it shall never work. But the interesting thing was even though it was not correct I assumed it to be working and thus made the next designs that don't have the flaw that the first one had. Had I noticed the flaw early on, I think I wouldn't have kept going on this very interesting quest. The universe works in interesting ways :).
Quote from: broli on February 19, 2009, 05:39:02 PM
If I misunderstand you please correct me. You're saying, there has to be a changing magnetic flux in order for the wire to move? If that's what you're saying then I do not fully agree. It uses the lorentz force law which you can simply check with your right hand. If this doesn't work then a dc motor doesn't work either, but since a dc motor works this should work as well ;D.
Btw the link with Stefan's idea is a bit non related I believe.
And I would be glad to explain further if needed.
PS: the very first design was a blunder, as far as I know it shall never work. But the interesting thing was even though it was not correct I assumed it to be working and thus made the next designs that don't have the flaw that the first one had. Had I noticed the flaw early on, I think I wouldn't have kept going on this very interesting quest. The universe works in interesting ways :).
changing mag field in ammount and/or polarity... the same way todays DC motor works, pulsed ones or with commutator that is actually making pulsed AC from straight DC.
...
or there are some other DC motors I haven't heard of...what type of dc motor do you have in mind ?
but slightly I see what you mean with lorentz...
although I think you will create cancelation and/or adding of mag. field lines and certanly change in mag.field but this change goes
with the rotor wire
so wherever rotor goes change goes with it
so really there is no actaull change for rotor in two different places
so there is no "need" for rotor to go from one place to another (unless stator field is changed and here it is not
...this is why Stefan's idea didn't work although it creates change in field lines that change is in every place same
rotor in todays motors rotates either through stator changing field or stator and rotor both changing fields , but never only just rotor changing in homogen stator field.
Perm. magnet in DC motor in stator is N-S-N-S as changing coil of rotor passes it so it can be said that stator is making change according to rotor position
althought is stator and permeable.
sorry of explanation how todays motors works...
You ment homopolar faraday type motor that works by lorentz force only ?..what would be the properties of such motors are they near OU ?.(I think geneartors can be)
are they industrially produced somewhere (motors) ?
Wiz
Yes this motor rests on the fundamental properties of Faraday's homopolar motor. Btw you do not need a change in anything to have a force. This is simply the Lorentz force, which says a moving charge (in our case the current through the wire) inside of a STATIC magnetic field will have a force acting on it according to the right hand rule. Now using newtons third law we know there's a reaction force that acts on the MASS causing the magnetic field. We use this property to let the magnet rotate instead of the wire. BUT experiments have shown when a magnet rotates around its magnetic axis the actual magnetic field is not changing. So it will keep on accelerating linearly due to the net torque without any backdrag,lenz,counter torque... I hope you understand this.
Quote from: broli on February 20, 2009, 05:36:50 AM
Now using newtons third law we know there's a reaction force that acts on the MASS causing the magnetic field.
@broli
The above is understandable and expected. This works well when magnetic forces consist of pole against pole configuration.
I'm wondering if your design will be similar to the old watthour meter used by utilities.
BTW:
I hope you understand that magnetic fields do not rotate around their polar axis, even if you spin the magnet around it's axis. At least this is my explanation of what I have seen on the bench. With that same idea you will find no net change in polarity or density of the magnetic to cause induction.
So, it also follows that Newtons third law should not work for you, as you expect.
You are a good experimenter. Hopefully you will come up with a better explanation than I.
BEP yes that's the whole point. The field shouldn't change. If there's moving charge in a magnetic field there will be a force on this charge but there will also be a reaction force (newtons third law) on w/e causes the field in this case the permanent magnets. Now let's hold the wires tightly and not let them move even though there's a force it's canceled since we don't allow it to move. But that doesn't mean there's no reaction force on the magnets. Since we attached the magnet on some bearing then, for example, this reaction force will cause it to turn. Now as it turns, just like you said, it will cause NO changing magnetic field since it's turning on the magnetic axis. But this is FINE since it means there's nothing to counter it like an induced EMF. So it will keep spinning faster and faster. All the while the moving charge (current) is giving it a reaction force.
To be honest I'm getting a bit depressed with this setup. I have very limited resources which make experimenting kind of annoying. Today I went on to buy a car battery charger from some second hand place, but when I got home I found out it didn't work. It might have had some sort of circuit that checks for load and stuff in order to switch it on. So that got me nowhere. The ring magnets I'm using are really small so I doubt I will get enough torque to overcome all other losses like the very bad made coil of wire around the magnet. I might take a picture of the ridiculous setup I made.
I wanted others to get involved who do have the equipment but looks like no one's interested. I was also thinking about going to a local university and asking them to let me use their labs or something.
Broli, don't get depressed. Tell you what, grab bike wheel, mount it horizontally on a pedestal. Stick a few magnets equidistant around the rim all same pole face up. Spin it up to a consistent and repeatable RPM level and measure the time it takes to come to a complete stop. Now drop a small neo disc magnet into a small plastic canister wrapped in maget wire hooked up to an LED. Spin the wheel up to the exact same RPM level, start the stopwatch, and immediately place the canister above the rim at such a distance as to initiate tumbling of the magnet inside the canister but not so close as to slow the wheel. Once you find the right configuration for your particular setup, and after timing a few spin cycles to dead stop, with and without generating electricity, you should notice something quite revealing.
TS
TS thanks for your advice. I already did the experiment to check for voltage. I attached one magnet to a drill and held the other with the wire around it stationary in front of it. I couldn't measure any voltage. The problem lies in the second phase. Making it run using the Lorentz force. The formula goes F = B*I*L. All parameters are so small in my current setup that's there's barely even a micro torque. I'm using a small wheel as rotor. I think I'm going to think of a better design that's simpler to build and is more convincing. I just wanted a quick proof of concept but I guess I have to plan it a bit better.
You are welcome.
Try the tumbling magnet trick.....
TS
hi all !
http://www.truveo.com/homopolar-earth-pole-motor/id/2497235433
really accelerates and runs fast with just short touch from batery
I allso found page and it is in industrial production
http://www.bodine-electric.com/etorq/
wonder if it's/can be OU
Wiz
Hi broli !
can't wait to see your experiment, where did you stuck ?
Wiz
I got stuck at the tape and junk part ;D. These experiments look like some 3 year old child has put them together, I mostly use tape and junk stuff. Every time I want to do an experiment I get too annoyed by stupid hindrances. By just thinking of stuff I have learned more than doing experiments in this last period. But I currently have a very small palm sized proof of concept in mind. It uses an electromagnet instead of a permanent one. And should show the principle as well. I'm going to make a rendition of and attach it in a moment.
It's kind of ironic that I went full circle and ended up where I started. I'm still puzzled about many things of the homopolar motor does and doesn't (like newtons third law). I thought I learned a lot until all the knowledge collapsed on me and left me naked. So basically I ended back at the radially magnetized magnets.
I have two concepts now. One is shown below and the other is a straightforward modification of it. The one shown below also acts as a generator, meaning there's "Lenz effect". This is because the charge moves along the electric field AND the direction of rotation. So this gives a counter force back in the form of an electrical field which halts the current. If this works it would still be superior to an old skool DC motor though. As there's no polarity flip and the head aches that come with that Flipping polarity also wakes the self induction up of the coil which is another bad factor (sparks and all that other good stuff). So it's a pretty efficient generator.
Anyways the other design is no different from the below one. You just switch roles. The wires become the stator and the magnet becomes the rotor. IF (this is where I have been puzzled about a month long) this works there's no Lenz effect,because charge is only moving in one direction. Instead the reaction force of the Lorentz force acts on the atomic magnetic dipoles which cause it to rotate until it explodes.
As a side note. The magnet can be made like mentioned in my other thread about radially magnetizing materials. In this case two pancake coils on both sides of an iron ring would be enough to amplify the field. Best case would be of course making permanent ones.
Hi broli and all
for me,I can't wait for the next installment,anything to do with lenzless generation gets my attention,so I'm sure a lot are watching.
peter
Quote from: petersone on March 03, 2009, 12:49:39 PM
Hi broli and all
for me,I can't wait for the next installment,anything to do with lenzless generation gets my attention,so I'm sure a lot are watching.
peter
Thanks, the more the merrier.
I today realized there's nothing wrong with the old concepts. I just got confused with all the knowledge. All you do is use newtons third law. The reaction force is doing work on the MASS of the magnet while the field remains the same. Can't get any easier than that. The Work-Energy theorem doesn't count for electromagnetism as the force does not get displaced even though the mass does. I believe this hasn't been used in the past because of the mass of a magnet versus its magnetic strength. So neodymium magnets are really good for this, as they can be 20 times stronger at the same size.
Also I gave up on home experimentation. I'm looking for some technical schools that allow me to make parts with their machines. I'm getting nowhere with duct tape and the few resources I have; If anyone is willing to aid with the experimentation it would be greatly appreciated.