Here is a simple design I wanted to share with you, the height of the track will make a difference, here is a simple magnetic track demonstrating vertical climb thanks to my friend Gilles in France, he gave me the idea of taking it further.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp-KYiTwtRo
I hope it gives you ideas to expand on.
Jerry 8)
onthecuttingedge2005
I see some real possibilities in this one. The first thing I would like to see is a spinning device to utilize the weight of the falling magnets. A wheel that only catches on the descending side with a generator to help run it, or to run it. I have some other ideas as well.
Alan
I guess if one really wanted to they could just place some more air core coils on the balls drop side. the speed of the ball is going to be important.
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on February 18, 2010, 10:18:27 AM
I guess if one really wanted to they could just place some more air core coils on the balls drop side. the speed of the ball is going to be important.
onthecuttingedge2005
More magnet balls would probably work, for I think it would become a timing issue. It could also help time the flipping unit at the top by a connection to the wheel.
Alan
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on February 17, 2010, 06:53:35 PM
Here is a simple design I wanted to share with you, the height of the track will make a difference, here is a simple magnetic track demonstrating vertical climb thanks to my friend Gilles in France, he gave me the idea of taking it further.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp-KYiTwtRo
I hope it gives you ideas to expand on.
Jerry 8)
@onthecuttingedge
Two things:
(o) Don't forget you can lay this over at an angle and you will
decrease the effect of gravitational force porportionally.
(o)It may be better to have the magnetic coils on the gravity
side if the ball is moving faster there. The coils will move the
ball around some though.
Generally though, this design will not work as-is because it
will take too much electrical energy to pull the ball out of
the grasp of array's magnetic field, because your example
track is designed suboptimally.
But try this ramp(Gilles);
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9BsOW6P7QM&feature=sub
Here the runner comes out of the ramp on it's own and needs
only to be redirected back to the begining. The array and the
runner are more complex then in your example. Just set up
a mechanism to deliver the runner back to begining at low
energic additional cost and you will have it. An electrical
generator can supply a
slight amount of additional energy
to compensate for some friction.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on February 18, 2010, 10:18:27 AM
I guess if one really wanted to they could just place some more air core coils on the balls drop side. the speed of the ball is going to be important.
Quote from: P-Motion on February 18, 2010, 04:49:21 PM
Hi Mark,
One thing he might think about is putting it on a wheel. This way, as the wheel rotates, the top magnet can move past a barrier.
I think that might be one of the simpler ways of trying it. One reason is if successful, he would have a rotating wheel.
What would help it to work is the magnets lower on the wheel that are pulling on steel balls.
A basic relationship would be something like having 3 steel balls over the length of the magnet array.
This would have one steel ball in the middloe and one entering the magnetic field while one is moving past the barrier.
Jim
@P-Motion
I had considered a wheel...One thing would be to "short circuit" a
wheel by moving the track up near the top of the wheel rather than
being in the middle. With two arrays mounted one above the next.
This would keep the number of runners down. Most of the wheel
would then be empty, simply there for balance.
My favorite though is using a pendulum and having one track array
mounted above the next, and two runners. As one runner dropped
and the next would be lifted. A small amount of electrical energy
from the runner traversing the the array would suppliment the
pendulum motion.
Another works like the pendulum but the downward falling runner
after traversing the upper array would lift a balance weight on a
lever arm. A locking pin would stop the offset weight at an extreme
point. Once the runner traversed the lower array, the pin would
release the weight supplimented by a small amount electrical
energy would boost the runner back up to the upper array.
I like these because they don't impart any rotational mometum to
the heavy runner that would need to be extracted back out with
high efficiency or else be wasted.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Think repeating magnet gun effect. The wheel catching the dropping ball magnets setting down to reload, but charging as well due to weight and possible other reactions.
Just a thought
Alan
We do know that the upwards magnetic acceleration is greater than the downwards gravitational acceleration, this we can be sure of because if the gravitational acceleration was greater then the magnets would not be able to climb the track straight up, the magnetic force should be utilized more for generating current in the air coils because there is greater accelerated speed compared to gravity.
I do agree that the gravity fall should be converted to generating electricity though just to increase efficiency.
although it was the first design I do agree that it could be improved.
I know they make really thin and round NEO's which are pretty strong and would help keep the bulk of the magnetic array from getting to large as the track gets higher.
I am thinking maybe a track of say 3 meters would be good for testing the theory and if it shows proof then make the track much higher.
Quote from: P-Motion on February 20, 2010, 01:20:56 PM
I am curiuos, do you think such an idea would work with something like the A/magnet set up in this video ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogLeKTlLy5E
I think I'll stick with the diagram in post number 1 for now, advance it and work out the bugs if any then if there is promise in making a wheel then go with it. but I doubt the wheel will exceed where this vertical array will go.
precision NEO magnets as thin as 1" x 1" x .05mm would still have good field strength and would not pose to much of a problem with bulk as the magnetic step arrays get higher. a gradual magnetic field gradient should be important here but a precise gradient at that will be the most important.
Jerry ;)
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on February 20, 2010, 09:20:27 PM
I think I'll stick with the diagram in post number 1 for now, advance it and work out the bugs if any then if there is promise in making a wheel then go with it. but I doubt the wheel will exceed where this vertical array will go.
precision NEO magnets as thin as 1" x 1" x .05mm would still have good field strength and would not pose to much of a problem with bulk as the magnetic step arrays get higher. a gradual magnetic field gradient should be important here but a precise gradient at that will be the most important.
Jerry ;)
@Jerry
I am looking forward to how your build goes.
I also have some tricks on manipulating magnetic fields and shielding. if you are interested. I have of late considered the possibility of posting them on youtube. But I have been holding back thinking I might work with magnets again, but I never seem to have the time.
Good luck
Alan
Quote from: AB Hammer on February 20, 2010, 10:06:39 PM
@Jerry
I am looking forward to how your build goes.
I also have some tricks on manipulating magnetic fields and shielding. if you are interested. I have of late considered the possibility of posting them on youtube. But I have been holding back thinking I might work with magnets again, but I never seem to have the time.
Good luck
Alan
that would be great Alan.
but you must concider several things.
one, I am a very high skeptic of such things, this is the scientific enitity within me. I obey what my masters of science tell me unless I can prove them different or at least challenge their principles.
two, I go with what I think scientifially has a fat chance of declaring a law in violation of all laws of Physics, I am always watching. there is always that chance else it remains a law period.
three, testing is my third rule which is always hardest to do, verify all your workings but don't be afraid to say the Laws of Physics was right all along.
I have never been able to catch the laws of physics in a lie, there is always trial and error and the promise of the scientifical rule of the square law of knowledge from observation and discovery. nothing more. a law is a law until you can prove it could be bent! don't prove it could be bent until you have made it bend.
sciences bends itself to fit new rules undiscovered but it is never mentioned as a flaw it is just an unobservation for the moment at the given time. Humans are copy cats, big time! it is impossible to fool mother nature. mother nature learns from its mistakes and over time accounts for variables to correct that mistake. at this point, man must learn all he can before his time is near or he will have no chance at survival when variables of nature steps in.
that is what I am, you are, they are, nothing more than variables, if you are not the dominate variable then your variable is reprogrammed by other variables and sometimes null and voided.
this is why some animals with less intelligence can destroy you because your variable is not as dominate in certain technological environnements.
it is all about variables!
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on February 20, 2010, 11:02:50 PM
that would be great Alan.
but you must concider several things.
one, I am a very high skeptic of such things, this is the scientific enitity within me. I obey what my masters of science tell me unless I can prove them different or at least challenge their principles.
two, I go with what I think scientifially has a fat chance of declaring a law in violation of all laws of Physics, I am always watching. there is always that chance else it remains a law period.
three, testing is my third rule which is always hardest to do, verify all your workings but don't be afraid to say the Laws of Physics was right all along.
I have never been able to catch the laws of physics in a lie, there is always trial and error and the promise of the scientifical rule of the square law of knowledge from observation and discovery. nothing more. a law is a law until you can prove it could be bent! don't prove it could be bent until you have made it bend.
sciences bends itself to fit new rules undiscovered but it is never mentioned as a flaw it is just an unobservation for the moment at the given time. Humans are copy cats, big time! it is impossible to fool mother nature. mother nature learns from its mistakes and over time accounts for variables to correct that mistake. at this point, man must learn all he can before his time is near or he will have no chance at survival when variables of nature steps in.
that is what I am, you are, they are, nothing more than variables, if you are not the dominate variable then your variable is reprogrammed by other variables and sometimes null and voided.
this is why some animals with less intelligence can destroy you because your variable is not as dominate in certain technological environnements.
it is all about variables!
Greetings Jerry
With me, what you see is what happens. I refuse to play trickery in my videos. I like your view point, but I also like this, for it tells me that there is loopholes in our understanding as well.
Quote“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.â€
Quote By Max Planck father of Quantum physics 1858 - 1947
The only question now is do I e-mail them to you or post them on youtube, Private or public?
Alan
my e-mail is onthecuttingedge2005@yahoo.com
I usually just post videos on public view for the world to see. you could always leave out commenting to avoid negative influences on youtube.
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on February 21, 2010, 10:41:45 AM
my e-mail is onthecuttingedge2005@yahoo.com
I usually just post videos on public view for the world to see. you could always leave out commenting to avoid negative influences on youtube.
Jerry
LOL That will be easy enough. When I did the videos, it was an older camera without sound. Posting shortly.
Here you go Jerry, and all
I will start a string on magnetic manipulation on magnet motors as well.
shielded magnets from attraction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0d_wTHPvy0
shielded magnets from repel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oqH4F_PNjs
total_repel.AVI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmPd3AOfsDw
total_repel3.AVI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v62E_cNeOJI
Several simple test can lead us into a better direction. May these help.
Quote from: AB Hammer on February 21, 2010, 11:41:41 AM
Here you go Jerry, and all
I will start a string on magnetic manipulation on magnet motors as well.
shielded magnets from attraction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0d_wTHPvy0
shielded magnets from repel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oqH4F_PNjs
total_repel.AVI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmPd3AOfsDw
total_repel3.AVI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v62E_cNeOJI
Several simple test can lead us into a better direction. May these help.
Thanks AB.
since I was already subscribed I saw them as they came out.
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on February 21, 2010, 11:50:35 AM
Thanks AB.
since I was already subscribed I saw them as they came out.
Jerry
Don't forget to give me some ratings please. ;D
Sorry to repeat here what I already posted in this other thread:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8532.0
But it's important... Jerry, I think that maybe I found an answer to our problem of "popping the ball away from the magnet once it gets to the top", in the words of someone who commented on this video of your French friend:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp-KYiTwtRo
My idea is: what if the magnetic ball is not a neodymium ball, but an electro-magnet?
Yes! The ball may have a very small battery inside it, and it can be an electromagnet!
We may have some intelligent control system that, when the ball reaches the top, reverses the polarity of the ball! We can imagine what happens when a powerful neodymium magnet encounters an electromagnet that has the same pole turned to its face!
The main advantage over the idea that I gave before (the last magnet being an electromagnet) is that if the ball is the electromagnet it don't need to be very powerful, and a small battery easy to recharge after a few loops would be sufficient.
you have to keep the magnetic gradient smooth on the up side, the magnets must be thin to keep the bulk of the step array small, 0.05mm or thinner, try to keep the vertical array at least 3 meters high or higher, the higher you go the thinner the magnets have to be to keep down the bulk. use NEO's to help keep good magnetic field strength. since magnetic acceleration will be stronger on the magnetic side you could generate more electricity on the magnetic side, as the magnetic ball falls on the downfall side it will have less potential because Gravity is a lessor force than magnetism. but returnable!
If anyone does a build. I recommend separating the two
parts of this: One) would use some external electricity to
remove the top ball from the magnetic field...Two) would
be to see how much electricity you can generate based in
the ball's motion. Step Three) would be to bring these two
value together. Conservation of energy says you should be
able to get close to bringing them together.
:S:MarkSCoffman
to avoid moving parts except for the magnetic ball, I would like to go with something like this. some of you more advanced electronic experts might have a solution to the circuitry needed to make this work.
Jerry, your idea is very good.
I only fear that the amount of energy that will be needed to discharge into the top coil will have to be very large in order to separate a neodymium ball (or it will be a steel ball?) from a neodymium magnet.
Maybe if the ball was a steel ball, and had a coil inside... When it reaches the top the coil could be activated, turning the ball into an electromagnet, and if the ball was not immediately expelled because it is not with the same pole face to face with the neodymium magnet, but the opposite pole, then the polarity could quickly be reversed (just a quick first pulse to turn the ball into a electromagnet, and, if it is not properly aligned to cause repulsion, a quick second pulse with the inverse polarity).
I'm not sure, but I think if a strong Neo magnet is with the same pole face to face with a not so strong electromagnet, we can have nice repulsion forces...
here is another idea that probably won't work but I thought I'd pass it along.
Has anyone built a serious magnetic generator? I've read up on so many scams...Thanks!