Quote from: poynt99 on April 17, 2011, 03:08:10 PM
A real superconducting wire still possess inductance, and it can be wound into an inductor.

The hypothetical situation I posted where the wire was ideal (i.e. Z=0 Ohms), is strictly hypothetical.

.99

So if we had a non hypothetical situation, the 2 caps would in fact oscillate forever. And all we would need is a diode for complete and direct transfer. And with no resistance, this conversion would, in theory, happen instantaneously, with the only limit here being the speed of electricity through the superconducting medium.
Is the speed of electric transfer, from say NY to LA in a normal wire, with real resistance involved, move at light speed(or close) ?  Or does that speed change also in superconductors?

Mags

Quote from: Loner on April 17, 2011, 03:38:33 PM
Mag, that is an excellent question.  Are you talking speed of electrons, speed of EMF,  (Which is not correctly measured, but detected by electronswe motion.  See the problem...)  or speed of charge propagation, which, for the guys at MIT, is a hotly debated subject.

To me, at least, these questions are at the heart of the matter.....  I can only answer one, and that's the speed of current, or electron motion, which is snail slow.  The others I need help with, as it depends on detection methods.

Here is the best explanation of electron flow I can describe.

Sound waves are like ac current. the sound uttered from your mouth pressurizes air. The actual air particles around the area of your mouth dont make it very far, just the pressure of the vibrating air propagates to push and pull on the air surrounding your head and expands from there.

If we have a pipe from NY to LA, we could hear sounds from one end to the other, but it is only a pressure wave that moves.  Same as in AC lines, the electrons never make it from the power plant to the other end of the wires. They are just like a long row of people just doing the bump( disco dance =] ) at 60hz. Eventually that bump gets to the other end of the line.

At sea level sound waves propagate at near 750mph (this no. has changed over the years) In water, it is different. its faster.

So maybe there is a difference in the speed of electricity in a superconductor vs real world wire.

As in the speed of sound, a different medium will affect it, maybe in different mediums, electric flow is also changeable.

So if the sound wave pipe from NY to LA were to just have DC pressure, that pressure would take a bit of time to reach LA, but this time the particles are on the move, from NY to LA, up to speeds of 750mph.  Im not sure if any faster would cause the pipe to burst.

I tend to think that electrons can move very fast. just because AC only moves them back and forth in a conductor, doesnt mean they are not getting from here to there and back fast. The freq of the AC component would determine how far they go and come back.  =]

But maybe electricity has just one constant. Even through a resistor, the other end will feel the input at the speed of light, just not a lot of current flow.

Im just trying to grasp the superconducting advantages and limits here. =]

Mags

Hey Loner

Any links to that Mit debate?

Mags

Quote from: Magluvin on April 17, 2011, 03:28:29 PM
So if we had a non hypothetical situation, the 2 caps would in fact oscillate forever.

No, the caps have an internal resistance, so we are back at square 1.

Quote
Is the speed of electric transfer, from say NY to LA in a normal wire, with real resistance involved, move at light speed(or close) ?  Or does that speed change also in superconductors?

Mags

The velocity of propagation for a pair of wires (twisted for example) varies anywhere from 0.6c to 0.85c, depending on the characteristics of the wire and the wire jacket.

Because the length of the line is an appreciable portion of the signal wave length, here too we need to start thinking about the wires as transmission lines.

Now, the drift velocity in a superconductor? That's a topic for another day.

.99

Wow

always more interesting here

I go,  on the air tank theory  and assume and accept that, the 50% energy lost is a real fact and that's it.

But the lost of stored energy is not due to the tubing transfer  (or wire resistance heat lost in the case of cap transfer ), but simply to the DOUBLE VOLUME for the air to expand.  So the air pressue is simply divided by 2 in each tank. Seems very logical.

And always because of the SQUARED calculation of pressure (or voltage ) the result is mathematically and always giving a 50 % in energy lost    always because 1/2 * C * V^2  formula   and that's it.

And now the question is , how and why ,   in the Believe Circuit (BC) of Magvulin    it seems  possible to improve this  result ? I mean we really    in real life    do not lose 50 % of energy

I mean and it is a fact  by using the BC we can reach in real life i insist , a 82  % (with very basic circuitery ) and  more transfer energy ( see all the above post ),

For instance if i put an air turbine in place of the valve in the air tank transfering tubing, and this turbine should activate a flywheel during the transfewr , do you think that the stored energy in the flywheel could be strong enough to go on emptying the source tank to almost 1 BAR and to recompress this air in the receiver tank to almost (let's say 90 BAR )  ?

yep

sliping is needed

good luck at all

Laurent