Quote from: MileHigh on April 14, 2012, 06:52:49 PMAnd like I have said before, the whole concept of a "home" E-Cat doesn't even make any sense.  How can you actually use an E-Cat in your home?  If you live in a warm climate - then what?  You have a nuclear reactor in your home to take your hot showers in the morning and provide hot water for your sink and dishwasher?  That's it???  If you live in a more temperate climate then you can use it to heat your house in winter time I suppose.

That depends on the licensing that Rossi gets.  What we're questioning is the inviolate right of ownership over any commodity that we, the public, buy.  Because there are those bright contributors here who see it as more than feasible to extend the 'use' of those generators beyond the simple need to heat bath water or to heat a few radiators around the house. 

Quote from: MileHigh on April 14, 2012, 06:52:49 PMIt does not jive when there are thousands of industrial customers that would love to have a cheap source of heat for industrial applications running 24/7.  Is Rossi talking about this?  Apparently not so I don't know what gives.  It all just doesn't smell right.

Which brings me back to that question that you asked.  Who is operating from a position of ignorance, prejudice or preconception?  Rossi is most certainly talking about running industrial application 24/7.  He's talking to our grid suppliers for starters.  And he's already built the first heavy duty example of this.  That's certainly NOT confined to the limited household usage that you're proposing.

Quote from: MileHigh on April 14, 2012, 06:52:49 PMWhat are you expecting to happen in 75 days Rosemary?  I am asking you this question seriously.  Do you think you will be able to go to a web site and look at E-Cats that you can install into your basement to replace the water heater and furnace?  What?  What do you think will be launched in 75 days?  Same questions for all of you.

Yes.  And yes.  And yes.

Quote from: MileHigh on April 14, 2012, 06:52:49 PMMore importantly, what would you say if nothing is launched in 75 days?  No web sites, no products, no nothing.  It may be a hypothetical question, but in my personal opinion that's were we will be 75 days from now.  We will have more quotes from Rossi and not much more than that.

Actually it's NOT Rossi who's undertaking delivery in 75 days.  That's Defkalion.

Quote from: MileHigh on April 14, 2012, 06:52:49 PMI would be thrilled if I was wrong about this whole Rossi deal, but I am trying to be as realistic as possible.Here is a thought experiment for all of you:  How do you think a young couple with three very young children is going to react if you ask them if they want to put a nuclear reactor in their basement for their hot water?  I have a feeling that you are going to get some push back no matter how many times you try to reassure them that it is safe.

I hope that there's no-one that ignorant or that prejudiced that they also preconceive that Rossi or Defkalion are offering a nuclear reactor.  God forbid.

Rosemary

Lumen:

QuoteThe words "EXTREMELY DANGEROUS" is your fear of the unknown!

My impression is that you are simply overly optimistic.  I have a reasonable grasp of control systems.  The fact that that demo unit had steam bubbles in it shows that it was was pretty amateurish demo and the unit was not working properly.  I don't get a sense that you are very technical or are on top of all of the technical aspects of these systems.  Or perhaps that would be better stated as being on top of what Rossi and Defkalion have claimed about the technical aspects of these systems.

It's not that I have "danger shades of fear" on, the problem is that you have glazed eyes looking though rose-coloured glasses on, and that is very dangerous indeed.  I don't believe for one second that you are qualified to pass judgement on if these systems are dangerous or not.  All that I think you are doing is parroting all of the optimistic stuff that you have read online on all of the Rossi/Defkalon fan web sites.

Sorry, that's not good enough for me.  You know the original argument for hot fusion being safe is that if you have a problem then you by definition remove the conditions for hot fusion and the reaction stops.  It sounds to me like the cold fusion proponents have borrowed that idea and adopted it for themselves.  However, there is a problem.  The whole concept behind cold fusion is that you have "lowered the bar" and now fusion can take place at much lower temperatures.  Therefore the implication is that there is now risk associated with cold fusion because the reaction doesn't necessarily just stop by definition like it does for hot fusion.

If you are standing by a gasoline engine and steam bubbles start forming in the water jacket around the cylinders then it is extremely dangerous for the engine.  Without proper heat removal within a certain amount of time the engine will overheat and fail.  Same thing for the demo unit, it was operating on the edge of a failure as far as I am concerned.  That was totally unacceptable.  I don't know if it would have been dangerous or not, and neither do you.  Hypothetically, you can imagine the lead lining designed to absorb the gamma rays melting and a person standing next to the unit could get a lethal dose of gamma rays.  I have no idea if that is plausible, nor do you.

No matter how many times you want to pretend that "everything is cool and it's impossible for there to be any danger" you are still talking about a device that is supposed to produce high-level gamma radiation.  As far as I am concerned at this point in time, nobody knows anything about the dangers.  All that we have are "Rossi says" and "Defkalion says" and that's not good enough for me.

MileHigh

Rosemary:

Quotethat we do not comment from a position of ignorance

Right now everyone is commenting from a position of ignorance.  And there is still no independently verified proof that Rossi or Defkalion has something that actually works.  Supposedly the July demo system that will be shown by Defkalion will change that and we will get independent verification.  I'm not holding my breath.

QuoteIt would defy the 1st, 2nd and 3rd laws of Thermodynamics.

You are totally wrong Rosemary.  The premise is that hydrogen and nickel in a heated chamber will somehow fuse at a certain fusion rate to produce copper and gamma rays.  The people that are promoting these systems are not denying that the ultimate source of the energy is E=Mc^2 nuclear fusion.  However, what they are saying is how that they are getting there is the interesting part that they can't fully explain.  Somehow they can put hydrogen and nickel in a heated chamber and produce nuclear fusion.

So the source of the energy is conventional nuclear fusion energy, but the path to arrive at the fusion itself is unconventional and not fully understood.  So you are off in La-La Land.  No laws of thermodynamics are being defied.  One more time you are perceiving this through the window of your own preconceptions, ignorance, and prejudice.

That is the whole reason that cold fusion or LENR is a subject that has attracted interest, there is at least a plausible source of energy to tap into.  There is no "new magic source of energy from nowhere where all rules are off the table" like you are implying.  Science knows that if you have fusion then energy will be released.

So this is NOT FREE ENERGY and you have to get with the program.  The title of this thread is wrong.

QuoteThen what kind of a business man are you?

I would recognize that the United States has such a huge GDP that I would slice it up into separate territories.

The "buy in" of 40.5 million Euros also sounds ridiculous.  It sounds like buying a "distributorship" from Dennis Lee.  Licensing doesn't normally work like that.  You normally pay your licensing fee per unit to the holder of the license as you sell product.  It is highly suspicious.

MileHigh

Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 06:15:26 PM

If you are standing by a gasoline engine and steam bubbles start forming in the water jacket around the cylinders then it is extremely dangerous for the engine.  Without proper heat removal within a certain amount of time the engine will overheat and fail.  Same thing for the demo unit, it was operating on the edge of a failure as far as I am concerned.  That was totally unacceptable.  I don't know if it would have been dangerous or not, and neither do you.  Hypothetically, you can imagine the lead lining designed to absorb the gamma rays melting and a person standing next to the unit could get a lethal dose of gamma rays.  I have no idea if that is plausible, nor do you.

No matter how many times you want to pretend that "everything is cool and it's impossible for there to be any danger" you are still talking about a device that is supposed to produce high-level gamma radiation.  As far as I am concerned at this point in time, nobody knows anything about the dangers.  All that we have are "Rossi says" and "Defkalion says" and that's not good enough for me.

MileHigh

MileHigh you are wrong.  The device DOES NOT produce 'high-level gamma radiation'.  There is NO gamma emission.  Your argument is therefore void.  Entirely so.

Rosemary

Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 06:53:27 PM
Right now everyone is commenting from a position of ignorance.  And there is still no independently verified proof that Rossi or Defkalion has something that actually works. 

This is true...provided only we ignore the accreditation of highly skilled academics and expert authorities.

Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 06:53:27 PMYou are totally wrong Rosemary.  The premise is that hydrogen and nickel in a heated chamber will somehow fuse at a certain fusion rate to produce copper and gamma rays.  The people that are promoting these systems are not denying that the ultimate source of the energy is E=Mc^2 nuclear fusion.  However, what they are saying is how that they are getting there is the interesting part that they can't fully explain.  Somehow they can put hydrogen and nickel in a heated chamber and produce nuclear fusion.

This is true...provided that we pretend that there are any gamma ray emissions AT ALL.

Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 06:53:27 PMSo the source of the energy is conventional nuclear fusion energy,

This is true...provided that we pretend that a nuclear reaction can result in no gamma ray emissions.

Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 06:53:27 PMbut the path to arrive at the fusion itself is unconventional and not fully understood.  So you are off in La-La Land.  No laws of thermodynamics are being defied.  One more time you are perceiving this through the window of your own preconceptions, ignorance, and prejudice.

This is true...provided that there is anything at all that's conventional about cold fusion.

Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 06:53:27 PMThat is the whole reason that cold fusion or LENR is a subject that has attracted interest, there is at least a plausible source of energy to tap into.  There is no "new magic source of energy from nowhere where all rules are off the table" like you are implying.  Science knows that if you have fusion then energy will be released.

This is true...in as much as a double negative makes a positive.  Therefore There is a new magic source of energy.

Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 06:53:27 PMSo this is NOT FREE ENERGY and you have to get with the program.  The title of this thread is wrong.

This is true if the thread promoter was not allowed license to use hyperbole.

Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 06:53:27 PMThe "buy in" of 40.5 million Euros also sounds ridiculous.  It sounds like buying a "distributorship" from Dennis Lee.  Licensing doesn't normally work like that.  You normally pay your licensing fee per unit to the holder of the license as you sell product.  It is highly suspicious.

True or not...I agree with you.  It's way too expensive.

Rosemary