Question 1: free will.
question 2: we all create it.


And god (what i would call- all that is) is not a man only, its everything that has existed/exist and will ever exist.


Beliving that all that is, is a man only, is beliving in a very small god.


Its not about trowing religion on fire and forget about it, its about expanding it, it has to evolve like everything alse.
Beliving in nothing- is a belive to, its the belive that after death we do not exist.
It goes like this: Becouse i dint exist before birth, my logic tells me that i will not exist after either.
They have never tought of what about if i forgot that i existed before my birth.


Tommy

Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 21, 2012, 11:52:50 AM
I will ask a question of the believers.  In light of your all powerful and benevolent god, that you apparently feel walking with you all the time, and who is always present, please ask him to explain why he allowed the following:


(1)  the Holocaust  (act of man)
(2)  the Indonesia tsunami of 2004  (act of god)

People pay for what they have done in their past life and previous births.

Suppose if a noted dictator who caused unlimited sufferings for the people, takes birth as begger in his next birth and comes to your house for begging and if you know who he was in his previous birth,  will you show mercy on him?

All the people whether good or bad have to die one day or the other but if good people die,  they  will go to heaven,  bad people will go to hell.

QuoteQuestion 1: free will.
question 2: we all create it.

Interesting proposal. For what it's worth, my comments:
Actually, we all possess free will. If you believe in God, there is only one Creator, who gives humanity free will to possess and exercise. A Christian, Muslim or Jew believes that man and woman were created in the divine image and likeness. Part of the divine image is to be able to act in freedom, without compulsion by outside influences. Being of the divine likeness means that love guides our exercise of freedom - always acting for the greatest good, as a reflection of our human nature as made in the divine image.

QuoteAnd god (what i would call- all that is) is not a man only, its everything that has existed/exist and will ever exist.

Tommy, my friend, I would add a slight nuance to your comment above - God is in all things, but all things have their own being and essence. God simply is each thing's ongoing Sustainer in being. A Hasidic Jew might say in this regard that if God were to forget about any one of us, we would disappear. Similarly, if God were to forget about any one thing, it would disappear. This is a way of saying that the all things are sustained in their individual being by their divine creator. Therefore, we can contemplate the Divine Sustainer in each individual thing, or in all things. I can see where you might mean that God is in all things, and that by contemplating all things, one can recognize the Divine Presence. But the gift of free will is exactly that - a gift. This means that each person has their own will to exercise in freedom. My will is not the divine will, and I am not God. However, I believe that my deepest self is sustained by God, the Divine Sustainer and Creator. I can seek to conform my will to God's, and ask that it be transformed by divine grace to conform with the free will of God. However, I have my own free will, given by God, that finds its full realization in pursuing the greatest good, after the divine image and likeness.

QuoteBeliving that all that is, is a man only, is beliving in a very small god.

Absolutely. This might mean for some that our self-realization is to develop as the Neitzchean superman, taking what we want to become the superman or superwoman we wish to become. For others, it might simply mean that life is absurd, and without meaning. Others might see meaning as something completely relative to the individual - no overarching human moral values or code.  Some might be comfortable without a God, but where do they get their ultimate meaning? Because every time we settle on one thing for meaning, there is something that is greater - in other words, the search for meaning is endless and infinite. This is because the human mind and heart were made for the Infinite, and can only truly rest in the infinite. And ultimately, this is a leap of faith into the unknown.

QuoteIts not about trowing religion on fire and forget about it, its about expanding it, it has to evolve like everything alse.

Yes, religion's purpose is not to control or limit people. Rather, religion is at the service of faith. So yes, in a certain sense, religion has to grow to help address the needs of believers in each age. I don't know if I'd use the word "evolve" (though I respect your right to choose this term); I think I would use the word "develop."  This implies that the essence of a particular religion remains the same, while it grows to become more fully what it was meant to be, in guiding believers toward their God.

QuoteBeliving in nothing- is a belive to, its the belive that after death we do not exist. It goes like this: Becouse i dint exist before birth, my logic tells me that i will not exist after either. They have never tought of what about if i forgot that i existed before my birth.

Yes, there are many who profess to believe in nothing. Actually, belief in God is a belief in no-thing. God is not limited by time or space or thought. God is beyond "thing-ness." But I digress. I know what you mean, I think. Again, you raise an interesting point about logic - it hits a kind of brick wall, and to get past this wall, one needs the gift of faith, which is free for the asking. It would seem to me that herein lies the crux of this thread.  Reason invariably hits a brick wall, and requires faith to help it embrace the "idea" of God.

I enjoyed your post, Tommy.
Bob


Tommy
 

Quote from: Newton II on October 21, 2012, 08:40:52 PM


People pay for what they have done in their past life and previous births.

Suppose if a noted dictator who caused unlimited sufferings for the people, takes birth as begger in his next birth and comes to your house for begging and if you know who he was in his previous birth,  will you show mercy on him?

All the people whether good or bad have to die one day or the other but if good people die,  they  will go to heaven,  bad people will go to hell.

So the 6 million Jews all did bad things in past lives to deserve being first herded into ghettos, then terrorized and then exterminated?  Or was this just an opportunity that god chose to let the Nazis exercise their free will?

If free will is so key, why even bother praying?  Anything you pray for is bound to encroach on the free will of somebody, or just plain fly in the face of the divine plan of letting millions of us die horrible deaths.

Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 21, 2012, 11:56:15 PM

So the 6 million Jews all did bad things in past lives to deserve being first herded into ghettos, then terrorized and then exterminated?  Or was this just an opportunity that god chose to let the Nazis exercise their free will?

If free will is so key, why even bother praying?  Anything you pray for is bound to encroach on the free will of somebody, or just plain fly in the face of the divine plan of letting millions of us die horrible deaths.

This is only my opinion and others have said I am wrong. but if you ask me Free Will and Miracles (from prayers or any other source) are mutually exclusive.

Free will in the bible context means the right to choose good or evil, right and wrong. Rather than whether to turn left or go straight.

Therefore free will dictates you should not be influenced by the existence or non existence of God. Because if you know God exists and that he will punish you for choosing the wrong thing, then that is at the very least a dilution of free will.

Therefore Miracles can't exist in a bible oriented universe as it is unequivocal proof of GOD. But the bible says you only need the faith of a mustard seed to move a mountain (perform a miracle).

Therefore the bible disappears in a puff of paradoxical smoke!

QED

CC

p.s. I wonder how many mountains our local faithers have moved mountains? Outside of those involved in construction of course.