I would have thought that making false allegations of specific people being paid "shills" would be against the forum rules. Or any
allegations of specific people being any nefarious entity is denigrating that person and so is abusive unless it can be proven to be
true. These people making such allegations against other persons should be moderated, warned and banned if the abuse
continues. If the accused responds in kind the entire threads end up a farce of accusations and madness.

The evidence of people being "paid shills" is just as absent as the evidence for any OU.

Basically people make crazy silly claims and others that question those claims get abuse and accusations of being a "paid shill".
Either people want to back up claims or they don't, if you make a claim you should be able to back it up.

..

Quote from: G4RR3ττ on August 05, 2014, 08:18:41 PM
Can't we examine an idea or invention without getting emotionally invested?

I like to think so.

Quote

Real science isn't about attacking peoples character or even proving people right or wrong, it's about examining nature and determining if your hypothesis can explain your observations.

Exactly.

Quote

Since there is already a strong foundation of accumulated work in place, we often unwittingly rely on it when making certain assumptions: like my voltmeter will read volts and inductance causes a lagging current etc. If someone's claim goes against these assumptions we need to examine the possibility that our assumptions are wrong and need to be corrected. General principles aside, no theory or "law" is above questioning.

Sure, if compelling data challenges an established belief then we need to be open to the possibility that the established belief is wrong.  The catch is: compelling data.  Poorly designed and/or conducted and/or reported experiments don't generate compelling data.  Often we see critiques of experiments, many offered with suggestions on how to improve those experiments are not countered by other suggestions on how to get good data, but on silly conspiracy theories.

MH,

Touché, haha. I agree that being called a paid shill is an annoyance, but to say its like being called a child molester is going a bit far... Though I do understand your frustration.

At any rate, I completely agree that most people frequenting forums like this have an alarming lack of technical understanding and an equally alarming tendency to accept almost anything as fact if it even remotely agrees with their personal bias (such as "I believe in free energy", thus all free energy devices must be real). That said, lowering your arguments to logical fallacies (i.e. ad hominem) doesn't help, but annoyance tends to bring it out--which natural.

Mark,

Thanks for the reply.

I am in 100% agreement on the requirement of "compelling data." There's no reason to change an established concept unless it can be unquestionably proven to have fault.

On the topic of conspiracy theories, I think many people (on either side of the FE debate) feel that if your not "with them your against them," so when you give helpful critiques they get mad. Equally as unhelpful are the people who deny even the possibility of an idea that contradicts their own. Particularly this is seen with parroting of conservation and thermodynamics dogma. Can't the system be "open?" There's no need for "creating" energy when we are surrounded by it.

Quote from: MileHigh on August 05, 2014, 08:36:45 PM
G4R:

My experience is that the vast majority of comments like those of Acca are drive-by comments.  They just drive by and shoot at you and then run away.  They never, ever, try to make a rational technical argument at all.  They disappear only to reappear when some other matter is being discussed that also just happens to be highly dubious with another drive-by shooting.  It's ridiculous.

Beyond that, being called a "paid shill" is not only false, but around here it is akin to being called a child molester.  Add in the fact that the proportion of mentally disturbed people is presumably much higher around here than in the general population.  That can mean the unfounded continuous allegations of "paid shill" could put people like me in danger.  There is a mentally disturbed person actively participating on this forum as we speak.

Beyond that, you have to be mentally disturbed on some level to believe that some Joe Blow playing with a silly little pulse motor that does nothing useful at all is being watched by the government.  That's a hypothetical example but I recall something exactly the same happening about five years ago.

Would you G4R like to be called a child molester nearly every day in your online backgammon gaming forum?  Would you like it?  i don't think you would because perhaps the mentally imbalanced person alleging that you are a child molester would trigger a real-life mentally imbalanced person to try to kill you at the next real-life backgammon tournament.

The most disturbing thing about this forum, and the most disturbing people on this forum, are the technically clueless fools that run around in drive-by fashion and regular fashion calling other people paid government shills just because the other people are making logical technical arguments and expressing their opinions.

MileHigh

MileHigh, I highly doubt that there is any credible risk that an unstable person will be able to identify you or anyone else who uses a pseudonym.  I also think  that if anyone were identified that it is extremely unlikely that someone would seek them out and harm them.  If you are genuinely concerned that there is a risk, then the prudent thing is to simply not post.  That may be very unfair.  But, it is the action that is within your control. 

IMO, when someone throws out serious claims or charges that they then fail to back, they discredit themselves very quickly.  IMO, they effectively squelch their own voice no matter how loud or shrill their shouts.  There is a point for anyone where such voices just don't carry influence.

G4R:

Thank you for your comments and I basically agree with what you said.

Mark:

I am not literally afraid, it's the old cliche that you are more likely to be hit by a car than die in a plane crash.  It's the principle that is important.  How far is the gap between being called a "paid shill" and being in a place in the world where if you don't follow the "right" God, then you have to change your ways or be expelled or even killed.  The gap may seem large, but at the same time the gap is not really that large.  Think Lord of the Flies.

Being called a "paid shill" is akin to being called a child molester as it could be perceived by some people around here.  It's like sitting at a lunch counter in 1954 and someone calls you a n*gger and tells you the lunch counter is off limits to you.  As far as I am concerned there is a connection.

Being called a "paid shill" is a form of intimidation.  The implicit message is "you are not one of us and in fact you are a despicable human being."  It's just plain wrong and it goes against the forum rules and my personal principles.  I can't speak the truth based on my average-to-half-decent knowledge of energy and electronics?  No way!  As long as the forum accepts a plurality of opinion with the goal of understanding various free energy propositions, I do not want to be called a "paid shill" and all that that term implies.

As far as the issue of random acts of unspeakable violence goes, just check out the site LiveLeak if you want.  People can do the most stupid and horrible things, even if they are very rare events.

MileHigh