Open Systems

[LibreEnergia]

What if Tinman placed a small turbine (not unlike the type used on your faucet that lights leds) between the tanks?  Then, as the air transfers, it will perform some work?  The air is flowing anyway and I doubt that this small device would inhibit that flow to any appreciable amount.

Just thinking out loud here.

Bill

The stored energy in the tank would either drive the turbine and produce work or allow external energy to enter by reducing the pressure through the venturi, or some combination of the two. Doing work in the turbine would reduce the pressure drop and thus the amount of external energy entering.

It's a Zero sum game.

[MarkE]

What if Tinman placed a small turbine (not unlike the type used on your faucet that lights leds) between the tanks?  Then, as the air transfers, it will perform some work?  The air is flowing anyway and I doubt that this small device would inhibit that flow to any appreciable amount.

Just thinking out loud here.

Bill

That is not unlike his original idea to get the ram to perform some external mechanical work.  The internal energy of the gas transfers to the outside work done, increasing the work that must be done to return the machine to its original state by at least the same amount as the external work performed.  There is a reason that the phrase:  "There is no such thing as a free lunch." got coined.

[Pirate88179]

That is not unlike his original idea to get the ram to perform some external mechanical work.  The internal energy of the gas transfers to the outside work done, increasing the work that must be done to return the machine to its original state by at least the same amount as the external work performed.  There is a reason that the phrase:  "There is no such thing as a free lunch." got coined.

I am sure you are right.  I was just thinking that no air would leak outside his system with that turbine...right?  I mean, it is a pass through type so the air would all end up in the 2nd tank...right?  The resistance caused by the tiny turbine would increase the time the air transfer would take place a little bit but, I was considering that since all of the air would end up in the 2nd tank anyway...I didn't see where the loss would be.

Of course, if you are extracting work from a system then the energy comes from somewhere for sure, no question.  I just did not see where that energy would "go" since all of the air is still transferred.  Unless....that small resistance of the turbine causes "some" of the air to remain in the first tank, when it gets down close to equilibrium?

Bill

[MarkE]

Tinman may suffer a similar mental block.  But this is fundamentally how hot gas engines work by exchanging heat and mechanical work.

[tinman]

Tinman may suffer a similar mental block.  But this is fundamentally how hot gas engines work by exchanging heat and mechanical work.

I see we are back to the insult's Mark,and here i thought you were starting to actually become human again-->my mistake.

Pirate,please believe me when i say it is not i that has a mental block. The block is actually coming from those that are blinded by the light!you could say. These are those that have no room for change,and assume that so called laws are set in stone,and apply to all systems in all configuration's. But you always see that when there numbers and laws dont start to add up,they revert to insult's. You see them say over and over that no work has been done,and yet the number's that MarkE crunched him self came up with a net energy gain of 10%-->and yes,work was done in the process. It take energy(work) to accelerate a mass-->gas has mas-->and the gas was accelerated through the venturi tube from a static ambiant point-->that is work being done by the gas(energy) stored in tank A. And did we loose energy when this work was done?,NO,we gained 10%. I could place a pile of beach sand below the venturi inlet,and it would suck that sand up,and displace it in tank B. Now,sand has a lot more mass per volume than air,so more work would be done-->but this still would not be satisfactory to the !laws of physics guru's.

Well Mark,would you care to entertain this mentally blocked person one more time-->just for laugh's ,in the way of some calculation's.


Tank A starting pressure=40.2psi
Tank A starting temperature=22*C-->this is ambiant temperature,as tank was let sit for 10 minutes this time.

Tank B starting pressure= 1 ATM
Tank B starting temperature of course 22*C

System was let sit for 20 minutes after the transfer and equalisation.

End pressure tanks A&B= 18.3psi
End temperature tanks A&B = 22*C-->ambiant temperature.

Oh,and just for the record Mark,this is the system now opperating with the ram. The work being done is the ram raising a 7kg steel plate by 400mm-->just so as you can have a laugh at the mentally blocked person on the other end of this keyboard.

Have a nice day

Brad