The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....

[Magluvin]

Looked it over in pm and it looks good.  Have 2 maybe issues though. Gota get to work.  Ill read again later. But others can go over it in the mean time.

Ill do a vid for the scope shot so it is shown done then and there. There is a ring down in the shot.

Mags

[Magluvin]

Ok, just looked at the circuits he provided and they are definitely correct. Im not sure that the battery currents in the plasma of the spark is the way things would happen. The output of the sec is through the spark plug to the engine block to gnd.   If someone can look that over while Im out to see if Im right, Id like a second opinion.

Be back tonight.

Mags

[norman6538]

Mags in your last post you said it very well but where is that speaker discussion?
Norman

[Magluvin]

Ok. reading over Mhs post, One of the first things I noticed was the battery polarity used. Now I can say that the 2 circuits are incorrect in that sense. The Neg should be at the bottom of the batt and coil and Pos at the top. It doesnt make a difference in how the circuit works here though. I didnt think on the + and - before, but i see it now...Nobodys fault but the guy who drew it up. Wasnt Mh n wasnt me.

"The action of this circuit can be called a "direct battery-plasma reaction."

When the swicth first opens there is a certain amount of magentic energy in the core that has to go somewhere.  One more time, the very high voltage secondary initiates a plasma spark just like for the simpler circuit.  However, here is where things change.  The conducting plasma on the end of the high-voltage coil to ground is a de facto temporary load resistor to ground.  The battery sees this "plasma load resistor" through the action of the "direct battery-plasma reaction."   The ignition coil acts like a conventional step-up transfomer.  This step-up transformer only exists while the plasma burn is taking place.  The battery is across the primary (with the capacitor in series).  The "plasma resistor" is across the seondary.  Since it is a high-voltage step-up transformer, the impedance of the "plasma resistor" is very low from the perspective of the primary and thus the battery, perhaps less than one ohm.  Therefore, the battery starts pumping current into the primary and adding magnetic energy to the ignition coil core.  That magnetic energy is output via the high voltage coil into the "plasma resistor."  So, in summary, the inital spark generated by the opening of the switch allows the battery to start directly discharging into the "plasma resistor" via the ignition coil acting like a step-up transformer.  This is the "direct battery-plasma reaction."



Mmmm, Im not buying it..  The primary gets charged up, or to say the field builds while the switch is closed, When the field collapses, that collapsing field is what induces the secondary producing high voltage across the secondary. Now what it looks like you are saying is that the secondary being induced, then producing the spark, causes current from the battery to flow through the cap and into the primary once more while the switch is open, and reinduces the secondary more? All on battery potential(voltage) alone??  Through a .14uf cap to produce an even bigger, more robust spark than the initial field collapse? ?   lol  let me read it again here and now before I go on.........  ok, i have to tear this apart bit by bit.  It is not the reason at all that there is a bigger, stronger spark. way off.....


Ok, bit by bit.. from just the paragraph above from part of his explanation..... First, I have to say that it is not a cut and paste. Thats good. If it were from a reputable source there wouldnt be spelling errors,  just sayin..  I make these errors a lot also.. no biggy

"When the swicth first opens there is a certain amount of magentic energy in the core that has to go somewhere.  One more time, the very high voltage secondary initiates a plasma spark just like for the simpler circuit. " 

Ok, I can ride with that part....


" However, here is where things change.  The conducting plasma on the end of the high-voltage coil to ground is a de facto temporary load resistor to ground.  The battery sees this "plasma load resistor" through the action of the "direct battery-plasma reaction."   

Ok.  This "direct battery-plasma reaction"  Where do I see a source for that phrase?    Id like to see the source. I do a search, it shows these first results in the Pic 1 below.... it has quotation marks as if it were implied as it were a phrase from some other source, or is it just a new phrase you made up??? If so..


"This step-up transformer only exists while the plasma burn is taking place."

Ok I can roll with that one also. If there is no load on the sec other than when the spark is live, then transformer 'reactions" between the prim and sec is not involved, yet.


"The battery is across the primary (with the capacitor in series).  The "plasma resistor" is across the seondary.  Since it is a high-voltage step-up transformer, the impedance of the "plasma resistor" is very low from the perspective of the primary and thus the battery, perhaps less than one ohm. "

The plasma resistor less than one ohm is 'perhaps' speculation, but we will ride with that for you.


" Therefore, the battery starts pumping current into the primary and adding magnetic energy to the ignition coil core.  That magnetic energy is output via the high voltage coil into the "plasma resistor."

Pumping?? Through the .14uf cap?  From a 12v source, through the .14uf cap, the primary is getting pumped due to the sec action of powering the load???
Before I show the scope shots, tell me something. What do you think the max peak voltages across the cap might be in the time period after the switch opens?  More than 12v? Only positive voltage reading? Only a negative voltage reading?  A peak to peak AC voltage reading? Ill show you which one it is soon enough. Ide be interested in your answer on this before I do the vid..... 

"So, in summary, the inital spark generated by the opening of the switch allows the battery to start directly discharging into the "plasma resistor" via the ignition coil acting like a step-up transformer.  This is the "direct battery-plasma reaction."

Ugh. Thats just terrible.  If this were to occur and there is no resonant oscillation there as you have been arguing, then it must be just a forward current from start to finish through the cap. And if it is only a forward current during this pumping as you stipulate, again, what voltage would you expect across the cap at the end of this pumping when the spark stops conducting?

Ok.  Im finished for now with that portion of your explanation. Lets move on to another portion.... Here is where things go wrong based on the above portion....


"Note that this "direct battery-plasma reaction" would not happen if the capacitor wasn't there to complete the current loop allowing the battery to pump power into the primary.  Without the capacitor in place, no battery current can flow, the battery never sees the plasma spark as a "plasma load resistor," and the plasma spark cannot get more energetic.

If what you say is so,  when the primary generated field first collapses when the switch is opened, this collapsing field was built on a high input current from the battery through the switch over a longer time period than when the switch is off. Lets say that the field built by either circuit primary, cap or no cap, would be the same strength by the time the switch is to be opened.  During the field collapse just after the switch opens, lets just say the spark jumps from the top of the secondary to gnd through the spark plug, just for example. Field collapse, spark to gnd. Now when this so called  "direct battery-plasma reaction" begins, and as you say the battery starts 'pumping' the primary through the .14uf cap, the field would now be building and no longer collapsing. That would indicate that the sec spark must have to reverse direction from gnd through the spark plug and to the top the terminal of the coil.  Secondly, if the the battery is 'pumping' this DC through the .14uf cap, just how much field power would be had from that?  12v through the .14uf into the primary. That primary will take on heavy currents whether the sec was loaded or not. And if you think 12v potential from the battery through the cap is even enough to induce the hv necessary to even keep the spark alive, then your way off the deep end. You may as well charge the .14uf to 12v and discharge it across the primary and see the nothingness that you get from the secondary by doing so. Because from what you are saying, that is all that will happen during this so called "pumping"   More like a micro pip than a pump.      

So your story is not adding up at all so far. Not to be rude or evil as you call me, but you dont even know what your talking about and your making up these fantastical names like " "direct battery-plasma reaction" that dont even exist all just to falsely dispute the resonant actions that I claim.

Truly I can stop right here with only taking apart just 2 portions of your alternative explanation to my resonance gain claim, and it is clear you dont get this simple circuit...  To me it is simple. Tk said earlier today in his first post there on this, that it needs to be more closely looked at and using the scientific method to really find out what is going on.  Well then carry on with all that. I will lay down the cash that says Im correct in my 'resonance gives the gain' here in the end. But I can say one thing at this time. That big project of testing as Tk states is necessary here, will definitely not have the outcome in your favor here MH. 

Ok. Let me look over some more of his explanation post to see what more is there to be seen....   Im just doing this on the fly here. I have to work more tonight.....


Ahh, this is one that answers my earlier question......


"As the battery conducts and pumps power into the plasma, it is also pumping power into the capacitor and charging it up.  Higher voltages on the capacitor will also lower the current flow.  Note once the current in the loop starts flowing the voltage across the capacitor starts at zero volts and starts climbing and the voltage across the coil starts at twelve volts and starts falling.  Therefore, initially, 100% of the supplied battery power goes into the "plasma resistor."  A short time later when the capacitor has charged to say three volts, then there is nine volts across the primary and 75% of the supplied battery power goes into the primary (and then straight into the "plasma resistor") and 25% of the supplied battery power goes into the capacitor.

Within a short time, the capacitor approaches 12 volts and the battery is pumping almost no power into the primary.  Therefore the plasma shuts down and the spark cycle is terminated.  The loop returns back to it's intital conditions before the switch was closed; the capacitor having 12 volts across it and the primary not conducting and therefore having is zero volts across it."


Ok.  Why would I have asked what voltage level would be in the cap when the spark stops earlier??? Could it have been because of what I have seen in the scope shots?    For MH to avoid admitting that there is an ac resonance between the cap and the primary, he needs to instill the thought that 'only' forward  DC current actions(constant, variable or pulsed) are happening in the circuit, from one end of the circuit to the other and from the beginning of the operation cycle to the end of the operation cycle. . In order to try and falsify the resonance oscillations I claim exist, he has put together his explanation in a complete and only DC current format. He cant have an AC oscillation in his explanation or he would have to explain why the ac was produced during the circuit operation.    And again, this explanation is shot.   lets see what else is in there.....

Oh boy..  Some doozies here...


"If the above explanation is correct, then the reason the spark is bigger with the added capacitor is that the capacitor completes the circuit that allows the battery to discharge directly into the plasma via the coil acting as a step-up transformer.  The plasma creates a resistor and the battery discharges through this "plasma resistor" until the capacitor reaches a high enough voltage to shut down the "direct battery-plasma reaction."  There may be some secondary voltage ringing artifacts observed, but these will have nothing to do with the actual plasma burn.  To verify this, a small loop of wire could be carefully placed near the high voltage circuit to act as a pick-up coil that detects the "ticks" on a scope that show the start of the plasma burn and the end of the plasma burn.  A second scope channel could look at the voltage increasing on the capacitor.  The assumption is that you would see a "plasma start burn tick" just as the capacitor voltage starts to rise and an "plasma end burn tick" when the capacitor voltage approaches 12 volts.  If any secondary ringing is observed, the assumption is that the ringing will not be directly related to the "direct battery-plasma reaction."


Firstly, saying the battery is discharging directly into the plasma is not correct in the least. This is what i caught earlier today and the language misled me to take it literally. As you can see in my previous post.  Literally or not, that shortcut to writing it all out as to why the battery could see the spark as a load is a bad way of putting it. Its like saying there isnt anything at at all between the battery and the spark itself...

Says there may be some secondary ringing 'artifacts' observed....  Well what do you consider artifacts in that statement? I mean like when we were talking about bifi pancake coils and we were measuring the capacitance of our coils, you were very adamant that that the effects of those increased capacitance's would be so insignificant. My pancake made of flat speaker wire capacitance was .016uf, yet here the .14uf cap is able to allow 'pumping of currents from the 12v battery into the primary.    So here we have your description of "There may be some secondary voltage ringing artifacts observed but these will have nothing to do with the actual plasma burn".  of course they wouldnt in your explanation, as long as it denies the idea of resonance gain. More on that in a bit...

Then you say this... "To verify this, a small loop of wire could be carefully placed near the high voltage circuit to act as a pick-up coil that detects the "ticks" on a scope that show the start of the plasma burn and the end of the plasma burn.".   Maybe it would show 'something'.  But what about measuring the primary with the scope? Wouldnt want to do that as that is where I say the oscillation originates when the cap is involved as an LC that can have resonant oscillations!!      Remember people, he is deftly against any talk of resonance. He cannot have it in his explanation and the main directive in his creation of the work of word art is that resonance cant be accounted for in order to deny its existence at all costs.  I know him. It is the truth. years of these arguments. Making up stuff like all of this to discredit me and others. This is one prime example here in his post. it is all fantasy.. Would anyone here agree?  Now. Does it seem like he knows this circuit better than me?? Nobody has to answer. Im just saying it aloud.  It is a butcher job to falsely argue my knowledge of this circuit. Clearly. 


And lastly we have this statement in the end of his explanation post......


"So, the instant after the switch opens, when you look at the capacitor voltage, you will see it start at zero volts and end at 12 volts.  When you look at the primary voltage, you will see it start at 12 volts and end at zero volts.  There will be no ringing or resonance, rather there wil just be singular rises and falls of voltage in the primary circuit - a "one shot."  This is a classic pulse circuit action."

Again a complete deliberate dump on the possibility of resonant oscillations when the cap and coil join together when the switch opens. Here is the big problem in that narrative. He is neglecting the value of the cap. This isnt some 10uf cap. If we were to measure the inductance of the primary and write it down, and measure the cap and write it down, then do an LC circuit calculation....

So I did 2 things. I measured the primary inductance. 5.79mh  Then I shorted the sec, just to be thorough. .9mh  The cap is .14uf  Run the calculator...

5.79mh and .14uf   5.59khz

.9mh and   .14uf   14.17khz

So lets look at something here,,

If it were even an 8 cyl engine, then we calculate how long the switch is open during a 6000rpm run, again to shorten the time factor for MHs advantage.  So we get 4 firings per revolution for a 4 stroke motor.  So over a minutes time, 6000rpm times 4 sparks per rev is 24000 sparks per min, divided by 60sec would be 400 firings per second. Lets just for sake of argument that the switch is on 50% of the time and off 50% of the time. 400 firings fer second. 50% on time would be 1.25ms closed time and 1.25ms of open time.

At 5.59khz each cycle would occur every .1727ms.  And when the sec is loaded, 14.17khz, each cycle would happen every .070ms

So if the switch opens and the battery sees a primary with its inductance reduced due to the loaded secondary, which would lower the inductance of the primary to .9mh, then the time that the battery has to fill the cap is only .07ms, out of the total switch open time of 1.25ms.  If someone thinks Im off then please correct me. i am tired here, but i wen over it and I believe it is correct. In my current state of mind

So think about that tiny amount of time the battery has to charge the cap to 12v as Mh says.  Is that going to help perpetuate the 'magnetic energy' in anyway of keeping the spark arching like he says?  Like I said, charge the .14uf cap to 12v and dump it across the primary. Id feel safe to put my meter across the sec with such tiny input.

Its all wrong for many reasons.   So what now MH??  You really have not proved anything with all that.  It ignores any possibility of the cap and primary having any resonance ring of which my last part here shows there is enough time for many many oscillations to occur by way of the LC properties presented.
Heck I might have thought you might see the cap at least be charged above 12v when the switch opens and your loaded sec makes the batt 'pump' the primary through the cap. But you dont even include any freewheel effect of the inductance to do just that and charge the cap above 12v. Like the whole circuit is damped to the hilt to avoid any oscillations to occur. Its just nuts man.  And you slammed me and others here for our understanding of it all and then you present this pile of imaginary fantasy land junk as your claim I am wrong and you are right?  What? You did say there, what, "If the above explanation is correct..."  if that is you saying it may be wrong, do you want another chance at it? Or are you sticking with it???

Sorry to seem harsh but the way you go about it all and claim for days that you  know how it works and I dont, but clearly here you show that you dont know at all what is going on and add imaginary jargon and force the ideas that it can only be dc currents in the system but maybe some artifacts of ringing. Dang dude. Im not impressed in the least. If I didnt know better, eh, but I do. You designed the whole 'story' to be completely depleted of any working AC current actions as if it were all just a big bunch of carbon resistors and that a cap and coil cannot oscillate. Then the incredible .14uf cap that can allow the coil to be pumped buy the battery while the cap only ever reaches 12v at the end of the pump. You know better than that.  From past argument experience with you, that .14uf is an insignificant amount of capacitance, but now it seems to be very significant to suit your needs.   You said in pm that my explanation of the circuit is a big fail.  Same to you bud.

Whew. That was a long session. i feel like I was possessed by Watts here, in terms of making a long post..   
Mags

edited....Corrected a ms figure that I had too many 0s in

[Magluvin]

Mags in your last post you said it very well but where is that speaker discussion?
Norman

Thanks 

http://overunity.com/17475/exploring-resonance-and-efficiency-of-speakers-and-subwoofers/msg512204/#new

Mags