HHO Cell - Stan Meyer Design.

[Farrah Day]

Please help me with these mysteries as I would like to figure this demo cell completely out and give it away just for free.

Oscar, welcome to the mysterious would of Stanley Meyer water fuel technology.

Personally I wouldn't worry too much about which ss Meyer used or getting your WFC to exactly the same specs as his, as these kind of discrepancies are unlikely to be important and more to do with available material and construction techniques.

The electronics side is where people really need to be focussing their attention - this is what would turn a standard electrolyser into a Meyer-type unit.  As I said to Peter, building the WFC itself is the easy part.

The electrochemistry has always fascinated me, and if you can crack this, you will know exactly what is happening and how to enhance the effect.  The problem is, the electrochemistry simply does not add up... at least if you are looking at it from Meyer's perspective.

Meyer talks of electrons being pulled off the water molecule... I say bullshit, there are no free floating electrons in a liqiud!

Meyer talks of an amp consumong device... I say bullshit - invented jargon to describe something as simple as a resistor!

Too many people still take Meyer at his word and simply assume what he says is how it is, that he knew what he was talking about... again, I say bullshit - he didn't have a clue!

To really get to the bottom of this, people need to forget Meyers depictions and descriptions and start thinking for themselves about what it is they are actually trying to achieve... and why!

Everyone by now should know that if you totally insulate one electrode, you can pulse very high voltages across a wfc without any gas being evolved - voltage alone will not do the job.

Meyer's electrodes were both in contact with the water, presumably because they had to be. The only reason they would need to be in contact with the water would be to allow charge exchanges - why people can't see this I find a mystery in itself.

This then leads to a further conclusion. Forget all the electrons being pulled off nonsense... the water is being ionised into H+ and OH- just like any other electrolyser.

Now, going right back to basics, why do standard electrolysers require a high current flow to produce a good amount of gas?  Well if you consider that ions in a non-reacting electrolyte such as, say Na2SO4, are the current carriers, ask yourself, what exactly are these ions doing? Afterall they don't react at the electrodes.

Consider this: All these electrolyte ions do is barge their way through the water to the electrodes. But in doing so they bump and bang into water molecules creating fluctuating electric fileds which causes the water molecule itself to ionise.

Now we have ionised water, and these ions react at the electrodes to evolve our gases.

Two things now should be apparent.

1) At any given time there are likely many OH- and H+ ions that are too far from the electrodes to react and simply reform as H2O.

2) All the electrolyte ions are doing is adding energy to the water molecule to cause it to ionise in the first place - they do no other work.

Now to my way of thinking, if we do away with the electrolyte altogether and instead of using ion current to induce water to ionise, we use high voltage pulses, we will surely also be able to induce water to ionise.

The thing is, we still need to get our OH- and H+ to exchange charges somewhere if we want to evolve hydrogen and oxygen.  Hence voltage may well have induced ionisation, but more needs to now be done to make use of the resulting ions.

I believe that Meyers cell would have been pulling as much current as any standard electrolyser, and that Faraday's Laws of Electrolysis would still fully apply. 

All the talk of this is a different technology and Faraday's Laws no longer apply, is in my eyes, once again... total bullshit.

The current draw from the input may well be low, but the current flow around the WFC/inductor circuit would no doubt be quite high - but this was never measured or stated.

So to summarise, we have low current, high voltage pulses across the WFC. The HV pulses create electric fields that readily induces the water to ionise without drawing the heavy, non-productive ion current of electrolyte ions. And as long as we maintain some potential across on the electrodes, any ions in the vicinity will exchange charges and gases will be evolved.

In theory then de-ionised water should also be more efficient.

This is a far more simple and logical way of looking at the possible processes involved than all of Meyer's gobbledegook and pseudoscience.

Of course I may be wrong, but in reality my approach is far more logical and hence is a far better place to start than trying in vain to understand Meyer patents.

[supermuble]

Farrah Day good point about the water contacting the electrodes.

Something of interest... When you use radiant energy to charge a lead acid battery, you can produce "cold boiling" hydrogen gas with very little current using pure static electricity. Bearden and Bedini claim that a lead acid battery will "charge its self" with little to no electrical current, so long as you pulse very high voltage to the battery. The battery then begins to boil, producing hydrogen gas in the same way that normal current would produce hydrogen gas. No need to change the inside of the battery, the high voltage pulses are what create the effect. The catch is, you have to "condition" the battery over a period of 5 or more charge cycles, and then the battery starts producing the effect very easily, charging up very quickly and violating conventional wisdom.

Perhaps we should start with a Radiant battery charger which is by default, devoid of current, and using high voltage pulses. It would be an easy starting place. Here's a link.

http://www.r-charge.com/faq.html

[OscarMeyer]

Both Farrah Day and supermuble make some very good points.  My own opinion of the electronics used on his cell is that very high voltage was being used in combination with a varying frequency of this high voltage.  At a specific frequency the water molecule begins to fall apart resulting in high gas production.  I believe the low current is in part due to the high voltage because whenever you raise voltage levels, amperage drops at the same time like in a motor for example.  You will always notice a drop in the amperage draw on a motor’s nameplate when wiring the said motor’s windings for the high voltage diagram which comes with the motor.  But high voltage alone does not add up as there would be constant temperature rise â€" increasing temperature in the water over extended periods of time - which would happen with any voltage used including low voltage.  So I believe there is a combination of the two being used together sort of similar to the motor soft start technology which amazingly extends motor life â€" avoiding high amperage conditions in the motor startup window - in large horsepower motors.  Another similar technology is that of varidrives which are used to change an AC or DC motor’s speed without producing overcurrent conditions by modifying the voltage frequency.

These are some of things I will be trying anyways on my water cell.  I could be WAY WAY off but in the end I will at least know what doesn’t work and tweak the electronics from there.

Just going for it medieval style,
Oscar. 

[Farrah Day]

Oscar, a couple of things.

But high voltage alone does not add up as there would be constant temperature rise

Any amount of high voltage won't produce heat. Heat is a result of current flow through a resistive medium, so as long as little or no current flows, little or no heat will be produced.

At a specific frequency the water molecule begins to fall apart resulting in high gas production

Many people say this, but do you really think that the water molecule can or will just conveniently 'fall' apart into H and O?  Again if this was the case, the electrodes would not need to actually be in the water.

I do think that it is very likely that high voltage pulses induce the water molecule to more readily ionise, but that this is only half the story.

The only reason the electrodes would need to be in the water is to provide somewhere for ion charge exchange.

Remember, ionisation is an endothermic process. To ionise the water molecule has to absorb energy. So, if the water molecule was being induced to ionise from voltage instead of current the cell would remain cooler.  Conversely, although the current induced ionisation would still be an endothermic reaction, the passage of this current itself through the resistance of the liquid medium is many more times exothermic.

[OscarMeyer]

Oscar, a couple of things.

Any amount of high voltage won't produce heat. Heat is a result of current flow through a resistive medium, so as long as little or no current flows, little or no heat will be produced.

Many people say this, but do you really think that the water molecule can or will just conveniently 'fall' apart into H and O?  Again if this was the case, the electrodes would not need to actually be in the water.

I do think that it is very likely that high voltage pulses induce the water molecule to more readily ionise, but that this is only half the story.

The only reason the electrodes would need to be in the water is to provide somewhere for ion charge exchange.

Remember, ionisation is an endothermic process. To ionise the water molecule has to absorb energy. So, if the water molecule was being induced to ionise from voltage instead of current the cell would remain cooler.  Conversely, although the current induced ionisation would still be an endothermic reaction, the passage of this current itself through the resistance of the liquid medium is many more times exothermic.

Farrah Day,

We both agree on the fact that current flow through a resistive medium causes heat.  So then we must reason that we do NOT desire current flow because we want to avoid generating heat and consuming excessive amounts of energy in the process which is what occurs in normal Faraday electrolysis.  Even with high voltage, you will still have current flow in tap water because it has conductive properties â€" such as minerals â€" which will ALWAYS lead to current flow as long as the stainless electrodes come in contact with the water.  You end up with a “dead short” condition which means that Meyer had current limiting capabilities in his circuitry.  He even states in some of his own literature that his circuitry does in fact detect dead short conditions and interrupts the voltage pulse train for several cycles in order to “allow the water to recover” he says.  Now this does make sense.

"Many people say this, (that frequency is the key) but do you really think that the water molecule can or will just conveniently 'fall' apart into H and O?  Again if this was the case, the electrodes would not need to actually be in the water."

Frequency has to be the alternate means of causing the separation of the hydrogen from the water molecule or we’re back to typical Faraday electrolysis and we already know how to do this.  To say that the electrodes don’t need to be actually in the water in order for varying voltage frequency to work is like saying wires do not need to be hooked up to a motor in order for a varidrive to alter its speed when it changes voltage frequency.  If we were talking about radio frequency, you would be correct but voltage frequency and radio frequency are two separate things.  What we are really talking about here is hertz or cycles per second and without altering this frequency, electricity here in the U.S. is normally 60 hertz (as I'm sure you are aware).  In Europe the frequency in their electricity is 50 hertz (which you already know).  Now if I change the frequency to say 10 hertz, this will affect the operation of all the electrical devices I hook up to this electricity and they will most likely not function properly if they operate at all.  Even when I change the frequency, I still must still have the load connected in order to attempt to operate an electrical device.  The water is our particular load.

Oscar.