Toroidal Motor

[jadaro2600]

Jadaro, the coating of the magnet causes no torque because this coating is attached to the magnet which wants to rotate in the other direction so they cancel out. The cause of rotation is the stationary wire outside.

I know your post was to broli, but I'm not sure how he could post a clearer image of this.

I'm not sure how you could paint a more blurry picture of how it works...

You're saying that the reference frame for the rotation is the stationary circuit outside ...and based purely upon experimental evidence...this is true ONLY because attaching the power source and the path and the wire all allowed to spin freely suspended will not spin to expend energy?

This is susceptible to scientific superstitions.

The fact that the disk spins, you jokingly say that the coating isn't causing it to rotate because the outside wire is, yet any way that you orient that outside wire should have an effect on the rotation of that disk?  IF the wire is causing the rotation, then shouldn't there be as much action on the rotor as the wire, and wire as rotor .....btw, the wire flipping around in the movie we love to reference is doing that because there's 100+ amps going through it and it's IN the magnet's field.

...yet, if you change it, it does not, theoretically then, orienting the wire perpendicular to the magnetic field should cause the disk to malfunction and stop spinning.  That means having the brush come in planar to the disk, and it will run just as well regardless of whether the wire is 1 foot long or 10 feet long, and we're not idiots here..so we both know that the supporting magnetic field strength around the wires required to provide the same said reference frame FALLS OFF abruptly.  How does your theory then pan out?

You'll probably tell me, again, how I need to understand things.  I wish you would, and do so then....I'll tell you one more time, but differently, then, at least through courtesy, you should tell me differently - so that my puny mind can understand what your idea is.

The path between the axis and the periphery of the disk is a radial path. This is a fact, there's no getting around that.

The current must flow along this radial path to get to the brush.  ( and please don't bother me just yet with you're brushless hypotheticals )  While the current flows, an oppositional force in the 'b' field of the current creates a force perpendicular to that of the magnet - this same force causes the atoms in that conducting path to want to move out of the way (The conductivity is attached to the atoms [ through the electrons ]) - they're then replaced by another set of atoms that want to conduct, yet also want to move out of the way - the ONLY reason this thing rotates, is because it is affixed upon an axis, and the same axis is about it's symmetry and the current is a radial of that symmetry.

Now, for something completely different:  While studying these devices, I took two neodymium magnets and placed them on the table such that they were both flat, where one magnet's north pole was facing up and the adjacent magnet's south pole was facing up.  There's a balance here because the north and south poles are repelling and attracting each other equally - they don't slam together like a book.

I then cut a circular disk out of copper foil - this was easy to do with a compass, it marked the center and it made the circle; I  cut it out and then punched a hole in the center and ran a non conductive axis through it so that it could spin freely and not be effected by current.  At this point it looked like a very flat copper umbrella - and I hung it up-side-down so that I could position it, centered, over the pair of the magnets.

I then used a battery to create a conducting path, directly over the magnets, through the copper foil disk, diametrically.

This device proceeded to spin just like any normal homopolar disk,... except with a diametric path.

This is because there is as much 'b' field influence on the opposite sides of the axis.  A normal homopolar disk, in a uniform field will do nothing and act as a normal conductor when diametrically conducting.

If your idea that the wire is the reference frame panned out, then my device would not work?  IF then, how so?

[Low-Q]

Vidar NO NO NO and NOOOOOOOOOO. You do this on purpose and I'm getting really tired of it. Everything I say you switch over without any reason wtf man. Are you paid to do this?

Imagine when the brush for a short period of time have contact with the rotating coil. As the coils are moving together with the magnet, no EMF is generated in the coil that you can take out. Imaging you are sitting on the magnet and measuring the output of the coils as you take your ride round by round. The only relative movement you have left is the movement between the brush and the spinning coil/magnet. I said I didn't claim anything, just asked you to think on it. How can you get out voltage of a coil that follows the magnetic field? Just think on it - that's all.

Further, when you load the generator, a current flow will go through the coil. This will create an electromagetic field in the coil, and only that. It does not do anything else than that as it follows the magnet. However, the electromagnetic field in the stationary brush, will counterforce the direction of the magnet, but only if you load it - lenz law. So I do believe you are back on square one with a "regular" homopolar generator. Again, just think on it.

Vidar

[gravityblock]

I can't help you jadaro.  I don't see your point.  Change the frame of reference, then you going to get a different result.  This doesn't prove the other wrong.

In your setup, each side of the disk is seeing a different pole in regards to it's rotation (left side seeing the north pole and the right side seeing the south pole).  This has the same affect as rotating a disk through a changing magnetic field.  Place a black dot on your copper sheet, and you will see how the black dot is moving from the north pole to the south pole when there is rotation (the field is changing for the black dot).

Now, do this with a homopolar motor and you will notice that the black dot doesn't see a changing magnetic field when rotating (the field will be uniform for the black dot, not changing).

The name homopolar refers to the absence of polarity change.  Your experimental motor is not a homopolar motor, and this is evident by the black dot seeing a changing magnetic field (polarity changing for the black dot).

You're trying to compare an apple to an orange.  You can't prove something wrong with a negative. 

[Low-Q]

I can't help you jadaro.  I don't see your point.  Change the frame of reference, then you going to get a different result.  This doesn't prove the other wrong.

In your setup, each side of the disk is seeing a different pole in regards to it's rotation (left side seeing the north pole and the right side seeing the south pole).  This has the same affect as rotating a disk through a changing magnetic field.  Place a black dot on your copper sheet, and you will see how the black dot is moving from the north pole to the south pole when there is rotation (the field is changing for the black dot).

The name homopolar refers to the absence of polarity change.  Your experimental motor is not a homopolar motor, and this is evident by the black dot seeing a changing magnetic field (polarity changing).

You're trying to compare an apple to an orange.  You can't prove something wrong with a negative. 

You are almost right about this, except the black dot will in a homopolar motor also see a change in magnetic field when it pass the magnetic field made by the radial current flowing from the the edge to center. This change is the reason why the disc is spinning. In @jadaros setup there is two poles facing the disc. These fields is still not changing. It is still a homopolar motor, but there is two of them in the same setup with one common disc.

Vidar

[gravityblock]

You are almost right about this, except the black dot will in a homopolar motor also see a change in magnetic field when it pass the magnetic field made by the radial current flowing from the the edge to center. This change is the reason why the disc is spinning. In @jadaros setup there is two poles facing the disc. These fields is still not changing. It is still a homopolar motor, but there is two of them in the same setup with one common disc.

Vidar

In jadaros setup, the fields are changing relative to the rotation of the disk.  No rotation of the disk equals no change in the field for the disk (You're right when it's not rotating).  Rotation of the disk equals a change in the field for the disk (You're wrong when it rotates).  This is easily seen with the black dot.  This is not a homopolar motor.

How does the field change in a homopolar motor when the magnet is rotating on it's magnetic axis?  A black dot on top of the rotating magnet, will not see a change in the magnetic field.  Since the electrical current is not changing, then how does this change the magnetic field for the black dot?

Requirements for a Homopolar motor:

1) Electrical current does not change.
2) Strength of magnetic field does not change.
3) Orientation of the magnetic field does not change, relative to the conductor or coil. (jadaro's setup fails this requirement for a homopolar motor when it's rotating) 

I've come to accept the fact that nobody will agree with anyone.  As long as we can make progress disagreeing, then so be it.......lol

The black dot is the observer.  How can you disagree with the black dot?