Where will the energy come from, to run a Magnet Motor?

[magpower]

IronShell3d

This has been intresting what you have been talking about but I have been trying for years to build magnet motor and found no real net gain. So I ask you how does one build a simple test jig to see this gain in energy. Could you please draw something out then we could all test this out. You talk alot about using ferrite and have heard about this, so how

Thks
Wayne

One other note ferrite I thought absorbs magnetic flux, and in the perendev motor they used this in the rotor's. So how can shielding ferrite used to gain energy.

wayne

[IronShell3d]

IronShell3d

This has been interesting what you have been talking about but I have been trying for years to build magnet motor and found no real net gain. So I ask you how does one build a simple test jig to see this gain in energy. Could you please draw something out then we could all test this out. You talk a lot about using ferrite and have heard about this, so how

Thks
Wayne

Hi Wayne,

First there is no energy gain. Only energy transfer from source to load to heat.

Have a ok at a BH curve for a ferrite then think about a ferrite being attracted to a magnet. Understand that as the ferrite gets closer to the magnet and moves up the BH curve, more and more domains are being rotated into alignment and that heat is being generated inside the ferrite as a result. Now heat makes the alignment process more difficult as it increases randomness in the domain alignments. Too much heat and the ferrite reaches its Curie temperature and can not do any domain alignments. BTW the Curie effect is not a black and white line that says below this temperature everything is ok and above it every thing stops. It is a gradual process, Some ferrites have a Curie temperature below 100 deg C.

Lets say we make the magnet stationary and the ferrite attached to the edge of a rotor. Now think about what happens as the ferrite gets closer and closer to the magnet, almost on a micron by micron basis. We do know the ferrite will follow the left hand BH curve pathway (going low to high) as it approaches the magnet and the right hand BH curve pathway (going high to low) as it leaves the magnet.

We also know the ferrite's internal temperature will increase as it approached the magnet due to the frictional losses of domain rotation into alignment and it will increase again as it leaves the magnet and the domains return to their random state, which again requires energy to overcome frictional rotation losses.

What does this tell you?

IronShell3d

[IronShell3d]

One other note ferrite I thought absorbs magnetic flux, and in the perendev motor they used this in the rotor's. So how can shielding ferrite used to gain energy.

wayne

Hi Wayne,

Ferrites don't adsorb magnetic flux. They do provide a low reluctance pathway and in some way can act like magnetic wire. That is until they are saturated and then act like air to any flux above their saturation point.

So shielding flux maybe sends the wrong image. More like redirection of flux as long as the flux is below the saturation point.

IronShell3d

[IronShell3d]

Ferrites are tricky critters. Have a look at curve 3 on page 77:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=gNJDb4O-A3oC&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=permeability+ferrite+curie&source=bl&ots=ntmhqnUiu_&sig=fLbrNx6YpJcZKh2yO3oG4ubAbdo&hl=en&ei=L8ItSv-6GpSNkAWL66mLCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=13#PPA77,M1

Note how the permeability peaks at just above room temperature and then drops as the ferromagnetic material temperature rises. At around 70 deg C the drop / change in permeability is VERY rapid and sharp.

So ferromagnetic materials are not all the same and must be selected to give you what you seek, as well as biasing the material at just the right operational temperature.

IronShell3d

[magpower]

Hi Wayne,

First there is no energy gain. Only energy transfer from source to load to heat.

Have a ok at a BH curve for a ferrite then think about a ferrite being attracted to a magnet. Understand that as the ferrite gets closer to the magnet and moves up the BH curve, more and more domains are being rotated into alignment and that heat is being generated inside the ferrite as a result. Now heat makes the alignment process more difficult as it increases randomness in the domain alignments. Too much heat and the ferrite reaches its Curie temperature and can not do any domain alignments. BTW the Curie effect is not a black and white line that says below this temperature everything is ok and above it every thing stops. It is a gradual process, Some ferrites have a Curie temperature below 100 deg C.

Lets say we make the magnet stationary and the ferrite attached to the edge of a rotor. Now think about what happens as the ferrite gets closer and closer to the magnet, almost on a micron by micron basis. We do know the ferrite will follow the left hand BH curve pathway (going low to high) as it approaches the magnet and the right hand BH curve pathway (going high to low) as it leaves the magnet.

We also know the ferrite's internal temperature will increase as it approached the magnet due to the frictional losses of domain rotation into alignment and it will increase again as it leaves the magnet and the domains return to their random state, which again requires energy to overcome frictional rotation losses.

What does this tell you?

IronShell3d

Hi IronShell3d

Well when you explain it this way there is no energy gain, and agree a energy transfer from one to other, then back again. When you said the internal temperature of ferrite raises as it approches the magnet is this time frame in micro seconds or even nano seconds. As I see it almost like a flip/flop gate the B/H curve. you seem to know allot and thanks for explaining.

Wayne