Is there anyone interested in helping Jack Hilden Brandt,
to build an electronic controll for his motors ?
Please post a reply here in this thread, so Jack can contact
you then.
Many thanks.
I am making this topic sticky for a while.
Regards, Stefan.
Thank you JackH
Jack,
I would be interested in helping.
db
Later,,,,,,JackH
Hi Jack:
You may wish to look into PWM motor controllers as well as what dingbat may have. This controls the time the coils are in the on state. Short pulse slow time, slow motor. The faster you pulse it, the faster it will go. Added extra, you can set the on time for the best performance of the motor. If I can help out, by all means give me a jingle.
Sugra
Quote from: hartiberlin on May 19, 2007, 12:56:53 PM
Is there anyone interested in helping Jack Hilden Brandt,
to build an electronic controll for his motors ?
Please post a reply here in this thread, so Jack can contact
you then.
Many thanks.
I am making this topic sticky for a while.
Regards, Stefan.
Hello.
If my help is needed in the converter and controller designs I would like to help.
Iv'e designed lots of controllers and switched powersupplies the past 15 years.
Currently I work as a power management designer engineer responsible for high
efficiency DC-DC and AC-DC power supplies in the efficiency range of 90-99%
depending on the working conditions and switch topology.
The controllers are usually about 98-99.5% efficiant. Rarely below 98%.
I understand you'll need an AC-DC or DC-DC converter to fit the voltage from the
generator to the controller and motor. This is the easiest task to accomplish.
The design of the controller itself might be pretty straight forward but it could also
be complicated depending on the needs of the motor.
Then there is the time factor....My personal time.
I have a family that demand some of my free spare time....which might cause
the design to take some time before it finished and ready to send to Jack.
But on the other hand, Iv'e got lots of experience and this will speed up the
development time and I might be able to deliver a combined converter and controller
solution within a month or two.
My email is visible in my profile info.
Regards / Honk
Quote from: JackH on May 19, 2007, 05:48:48 PM
What I would like to see is this.
Three electric eyes spaced 60% around my mounting plate and some kind of disk that would be conected to the shaft so I could place a gap in to controll the on/off time for the coils.
How about a crude mechanical solution to start with? A cam based idea
with a disc on the shaft and three protruding juttings which meet a simple
microswitch which switches the current to the coils. (Old dumped microwave
ovens are full of such microswitches, if yo0u have one knocking around).
The juttings could even be lumps of solder.
Paul.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Jack,
I had a webserver crash that has me tied up at the moment. I'll get with you when I get this mess cleaned up.
Honk's experience can be utilized as well. I live within a couple of hours of you, so that part is easy.
db
Thanks again,,,,,,,,,,,Later,,,,,,,JackH
Thanks again,,,,,,,JackH
Quote from: JackH on May 21, 2007, 11:26:05 PM
Hello Stefan,
Thanks very much for puting this topic up. I am going to get a motor controller built.
Thanks again,,,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand
Jack
If the guys want to use the Pulse Controller Board I released here
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2263.0.html
They are more than welcome and I can tweak the Micro Processor code to suit their/your needs. You would probably have to upgrade the Fets, but apart from that I can see no reason why it would not work.
Regards
Sean.
Thanks very much,,,,,,,,,Later,,,,,,JackH
Dear Jack,
it has been about a month now since Stephan opened this new thread for you. I have read the comments and I infer that you have gathered together your dream team a delightful mixture of the old world and the new. You yourself and DINGBAT the good old USA, while this side of the pond HONK Sweden and CLANZER, the UK. I hope you have made them all sign a NDA, I wouldn't want your technology to be filched from under your nose not that I think that they would. I also presume that the E-mails have been flying thick and fast as you and your colleges have been getting to grips with the problem. I have purposely kept my curiosity in check, but it would be nice if we other poor mortals could have a progress report on the state of play. I think I can honestly say that most of your fans on these threads would love to know what is going on. I personally don't want to know the details of your invention but it would be nice to know who have come on board to help you out, and how far you have got in the last month designing a controller, or even building one. It would be nice to know how the patent is going. I hope I am not being presumptious but could you and your dream team please give us a progress report.
I follow very closely what is going on in the world of Z.P.E. and the development of electric motors. From my reading of things it seems that Saudi Arabia oil production has peaked and oil prices will remain high which will mean that the oil cartel will not be able to suppress inventions like yours, even if they wanted too. It doesn't really matter if your motor is self running, what really matters is that it is far more efficient than the other motors that are on the market. Let us assume that your motor is only twice as efficient as the motors now used in electrical cars, it would mean that the cars could go twice as far. The limitations of battery technology which limits the range of a lead acid cell in a vehicles to about 40 miles would be doubled to 80 miles. This might not seem much, but it would be more than enough to make a cheap electrical vehicle more than competitive for local commuting, which is what most vehicles are used for.
I am emphasizing the need for speed, Steorn is coming out with there technology in July in London,
Magnetronic Motors have just announced a conversion kit. Perendev from what I gather are very advanced in marketing a magnetic motor in Europe. Things are coming to a head, once this technology is accepted as viable, the scientific community will have to abandon the iron laws of thermodynamics and explain why it violates them.
Jack you are on the cusp of a dynamic change in how man produces energy. Jack remember your Shakespear ( there is a tide in the affairs of man when taken on the flood leads on ). Jack if you don't have a product to license in the next two years, you are going to be yesterdays news.
Jack I hope that you and your dream team realize this and can quickly exploit you discoveries to bring this to market as quickly as possible.
Jack I would just like to say one more time, for fuck sake give us a progress report, you have a hell of a lot of fans wishing you well in cyber space.
Deep regards
Yorkshire Miner
Later,,,,,,,JackH
Hello, Honk here.
I'm a big fan of Mr Jack W Hilden-Brand and his inventions and I'm also very happy to
be able to help him to get the most out of his great motor.
Myself I have learnt a thing or two about the electrical behavior of the motor.
I originally had an idea of how to prevent the drawbacks of having to deal with high
inductance coils, such as in the valves, and so far all my ideas have been successful
during development of the controller. I also found a way to recover the back EMF to
let it power the Flux Booster Unit. This is even more efficient than I calculated.
The flux build-up of a high inductance coil is very slow, like a saw-tooth wave at
high rpm's. My Flux Booster Unit within the controller will create an instantaneous
flux field at 0.25mS rise time. This allows high RPM:s at full torgue, meaning lot's of hp.
Yesterday I ran a series of tests on a very Valve like laminated iron core coil Iv'e got.
The coil have 75mH inductance, 2.8 ohm resistance and takes 2.3Amp for 15W power.
At Zero RPM the coil is using 15W to reach full field at 2.3A. (static mode)
At 400 RPM the coil is using 21W to reach full field at 2.3A.
At 700 RPM the coil is using 23W to reach full field at 2.3A.
At 1500 RPM the coil is using 25W to reach full field at 2.3A.
At 2000 RPM the coil is using 27W to reach full field at 2.3A.
At 2500 RPM the coil is using 29W to reach full field at 2.3A.
At 3300 RPM the coil is using 32W to reach full field at 2.3A.
This should be compared to running the coil with no boosting flux enhancement.
Then the input power is 9 to 13 times higher depending on the RPM, like 200-300W.
Imagine having such a motor installed in your average car and just some standard
24V 75Ah batteries and being able to drive at 60mph for 45 hours before recharge.
Even better. Add another small Hilden Brand motor with a generator and a very
small 24V 3Ah battery. The battery provides car start-up and the small generator
delivers running current for the big motor and recharging current for the battery.
By this setup you can drive forever until the car breaks down of old age.... :)
Best of all. Just hook up a generator to the big motor and let it recharge the starter
batteri and power the rest of the electrical systems in the car. No need for another
motor-generator setup. It should also be the most economical to produce. :D :D :D
Dear Jack and Honk,
Thanks for the information, this is great news. I think the pair of you are on a roll. The statistics seem very impressive, not knowing how the motor is configures it is very difficult for me to judge. I will just have to keep my curiosity in check until Jack's patent is released. I still think you have a window of approximately two years before alternative energy becomes mainstream. I say this because the price of oil is not going to come down only rise which will automatically make many of the alternative technology's economically viable, improving your technology will only narrow the gap quicker. The nice thing about the whole affair is that you don't need fancy batteries a decent sized cheap lead acid battery is more than good enough. Things like this means that you will have a cheap conversion market all that will have to be done is swap the internal combustion engine for a Hilden Brand electrical motor, which seems to have high torque at low revs which makes it ideal. As I have said before, acceptance by the public is the main stumbling block. Inventions like Jacks seem to have the aura of getting something for nothing about them, and they are easily ridiculed by the scientific and big business establishment who have a vested interest in the status qua. They end up as being nothing more than 30 second sound bits on CNN.
STEORN an Irish firm are publicly giving a demonstration of their motor in London at the beginning of next month complete with live web casts. I seriously suggest that you check it out they seem to have got all the bases covered, and if it is successful it will go a long way in gaining public acceptance of alternative technology. Here is the link by the way.
http://www.steorn.com/
Thanks once again for the information and I will be popping in regularly to follow development. Jack as I see it, things seem to be looking good with your patent covering the bases, and a well finished functioning prototype which you are more than capable of producing, you will not be dismissed as a crank at any demonstrations you might decide to make. By the way, when it comes to distribution rights in Scandinavia and Holland think of me and Honk will you. Good luck for the future
Deep Regards
Yorkshire Miner
@yorkshireminer,
Do you know any details about the Steorn public demonstration in July? When exactly is it going to be and how can one arrange for a visit? I would like to attend but the first condition for me visitng is not to be made to sign any non-disclosure agreements and such. That's an irrevocable requirement on my side.
Dear Omnibus,
I don't see what the problem is, from what I gather it is going to be a public demonstration, so why would they want you to sign a NDA? What by the way is wrong in signing a NDA? I would hope that Jack here has made HONK sign a NDA. Not that I think HONK would cheat on Jack but when potentially large sums of money are involved moral scruples tend to be pushed to one side. Inventors like Jack, the little man with a good idea, tend to get screwed to put it mildly, if they have got no legal protection. They also tend to get screwed if they have. Steorn have also got legal obligations to their shareholders, they would be derelict in their duty if they didn't look after those interests.
Check out the Steorn site, most of the information is there, I don't think that they have settled on a date , but I suspect that it will be held at the same time as one of those fuzzy feel good concerts like Live Aid where the organizers make millions and the recipients get nothing. I gather there is going to be a sort of SAVE THE WORLD concert at the beginning of July in London. They will most likely hold the demonstration then to get the most out of the common publicity. More than that I don't know, keep checking out the Steorn site, they would be stupid if they did give adequate notice of the demonstration.
Deep Regards
Yorkshire Miner
@yorkshireminer,
The most important factor for social success in the engineering efforts to build a perpetuum mobile is to keep business out of it. Keeping business out of it is especially important at this stage when the mere possibility for the violation of the principle of conservation of energy is still to be recognized as a legitimate scientific fact. Not to say that, in the long run, perpetuum mobile is everything the business does not want.
False illusions by dreamers seeing themselves becoming rich by inventing self-sustaining machines has brought this area to the sorry state it is at present. The unwarranted secrecy by possible successful inventors in the past has been the most efficient killer of the opportunities that have probably existed to change the world. The large sums you are talking about are an illusion and this illusion entertained by the inventors had made it opportune for the powers that be to squash, to nip the perpetuum mobile in the bud exactly for the purposes of preserving business. Thus, although it may seem shortsightedly that it is not so, the other name of perpetuum mobile is anti-business.
The main goal now is to press the mainstream science efficiently and make it inevitable for it to recognize that conservation of energy is not an universal principle because there are conditions under which it can be violated. The possibility to violate the principle is proven beyond doubt scientifically but there still isn?t a demonstrable working practical device which would have the power to change the public opinion at large and have effect on society. Making the mainstream science accept, under the pressure from society, that violation of the energy conservation principle is possible will be a revolution in itself with unforeseen consequences in really saving the world, far more important than who has become rich from ?saving? the world with LiveAid and the like trivial business ventures.
First of all let me say that I don't think that there is such a thing as a perpetual motion machine and never have been. I think we just don't understand the principles at work and we get confused with the terminology. Let me give a few examples to explain what I mean. If I have a heat pump that is 400% efficient I put 100watts of heat equivalent energy in I get 400Watts of heat out, that seems to contradict the laws of the conservation of energy, but it doesn't, the 100 watt motor used to drive the machine will never be more than 100% efficient the extra heat at the output has been transferred from somewhere else. Science understands the principles we don't look on it as a miracle. Now let us take another example which seems to contradict the laws of the conservation of energy, and produces more heat than is put in. Please check out the first part of this video before you read further. The problem with this machine is that we don't understand the principles which causes the excess heat. That being so, it gets dismissed by the science community as over unity perpetual motion and I don't know what. Here is the link.
http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=2464139837181538044&q=Equinox&total=973&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
The problem with this machine is that the so called hicks from the sticks are building the machine and selling it. IT WORKS so where does the excess energy come from. I have my own ideas but they are irrelevant to this discussion.
Let us go further, into the so called light fantastic, google Perendev Beddini Searl Hollingsworth. Searls and Hollingsworths claims seem especially fantastic, but are they, might it not be that we just don't understand where the excess energy is coming from. Have they discovered a way of transferring energy from the Dirac sea, Zero point energy, or perhaps from the inertia in a body I don't know and neither do the scientist. I for one do not want to keep business out. I want it well and truly in, only with marketable systems that work, that seem to defy the conservation of energy laws will the scientific community have to come down from their ivory towers and start to think and try and understand how the thing works.
Deep Regards
Yorkshire Miner
@yorkshireminer,
The example with the heat pump is irrelevant. The heat pump is not a perpetuum mobile. Carry out the cycle in the reverse and the gain will be exactly compensated. The source of the seeming excess energy is well known.
On the other hand, genuine excess energy, violating the principle of conservation of energy, is produced by SMOT beyond doubt. It has already been discussed extensively here and in other places so I won?t get into details. The excess energy produced by SMOT has no source, it comes from nothing. SMOT produces excess energy discontinuously, a portion at a time after the completion of each cycle.
Unfortunately, so far no one has demonstrated continuous production of excess heat which, as I mentioned, would have the social impact we seek. Torbay, Perendev etc. motors were promising but business and other ill-conceived interests prevented them from being legitimized in society. These inventors really hurt themselves and society at large by the inadequacy of their approach. Even Finsrud whom I visited personally and who has the best example so far of a perpetuum mobile on public display is not forthcoming enough to really settle once and for all whether or not continuous production of excess energy is achieved. Hope this will not be the case with Steorn.
Dear Omnibus
you state so in your last comment
(The example with the heat pump is irrelevant. The heat pump is not a perpetuum mobile. Carry out the cycle in the reverse and the gain will be exactly compensated. The source of the seeming excess energy is well known.)
Please tell me what you are arguing about, I know it is not a perpetuum mobile. I never said that it was, in fact I stated the opposite . Now please tell me where the extra heat/energy is coming from, in the Jim Grigg's machine in the video? The scientists don't know, and I certainly don't know. Now where in God's name is it being transferred from?
I gave the others as a more extreme form Searl's and Hollingsworth's discoveries are even more far out , even a science fiction writer would have difficulty believing them, but Searl's claims that his generator has an antigravity effect seem to have been verified in Russia a few years ago. Searl has now got a new team together and is replicating his old machines. I am very skeptical but the part of his new machine that they have built seems to be working the way he predicted. You can see the test on Utube, check it out.
I will state it once again I don't think that there is such a thing a perpetual motion. I just think that we don't know where the extra energy is coming from. If you get more energy out than you put in then it is over unity, not perpetual motion, the Griggs machine certainly is. The question is can we feed that extra energy back into the machine, close the loop, and get the machine to run continually. I think it might be possible, this is what Steorn is claiming. It would look like perpetual motion but it wouldn't be. We just don't know the source of the extra energy.
Deep Regards
Yorkshire Miner
Quote from: yorkshireminer on June 21, 2007, 07:26:37 PM
Dear Omnibus
you state so in your last comment
(The example with the heat pump is irrelevant. The heat pump is not a perpetuum mobile. Carry out the cycle in the reverse and the gain will be exactly compensated. The source of the seeming excess energy is well known.)
Please tell me what you are arguing about, I know it is not a perpetuum mobile. I never said that it was, in fact I stated the opposite . Now please tell me where the extra heat/energy is coming from, in the Jim Grigg's machine in the video? The scientists don't know, and I certainly don't know. Now where in God's name is it being transferred from?
I gave the others as a more extreme form Searl's and Hollingsworth's discoveries are even more far out , even a science fiction writer would have difficulty believing them, but Searl's claims that his generator has an antigravity effect seem to have been verified in Russia a few years ago. Searl has now got a new team together and is replicating his old machines. I am very skeptical but the part of his new machine that they have built seems to be working the way he predicted. You can see the test on Utube, check it out.
I will state it once again I don't think that there is such a thing a perpetual motion. I just think that we don't know where the extra energy is coming from. If you get more energy out than you put in then it is over unity, not perpetual motion, the Griggs machine certainly is. The question is can we feed that extra energy back into the machine, close the loop, and get the machine to run continually. I think it might be possible, this is what Steorn is claiming. It would look like perpetual motion but it wouldn't be. We just don't know the source of the extra energy.
I think you guys are arguing definitions and semantics...
Your heat pump is overunity in the fact that it produces a CoP > 1.
Now if that was electricity and not heat you would have a perpetual motion machine.
Thats what you are both saying, yet you both say it so differently you have to debate terms.
Simply put yes the energy is taken from somewhere, but when you are tapping something that exists everywhere at once (the aether) then its a universally open well of energy.
So again its not energy from nothing, but more a energy transference we're not yet familiar with.
~Dingus Mungus
On the contrary, I'm arguing that SMOT produces energy from nothing. Except for electrolysis in an undivided cell, this is the only other example of a device categorically proven to produce energy from nothing and thus violating the principle of conservation of energy.
Quote from: Omnibus on June 21, 2007, 11:59:00 PM
On the contrary, I'm arguing that SMOT produces energy from nothing. Except for electrolysis in an undivided cell, this is the only other example of a device categorically proven to produce energy from nothing and thus violating the principle of conservation of energy.
Yes Omnibus I also agree with you...
Altho my definition of nowhere varies slightly.
Power from nowhere today will get named/studied then its power from somewhere.
Weather or not that "nowhere" well of energy will be an endless supply is unkown.
~Dingus Mungus
Quote from: Omnibus on June 21, 2007, 11:59:00 PM
On the contrary, I'm arguing that SMOT produces energy from nothing. Except for electrolysis in an undivided cell, this is the only other example of a device categorically proven to produce energy from nothing and thus violating the principle of conservation of energy.
Isn't the energy coming from the magnets? The magnets channeling magnetic energy? I agree that its just energy undescribed by science. Its comming from somewhere, we just don't know how it acts and can't actively view it, but its there. Doesn't it have to be? With all the energy stored all around us, doesn't it seem more logical its coming from this aether, rather than nothing? Does anyone really know how magnetism functions on a molecular level or beyond, and how it transfers?
I've always been interesting in the idea of a motor powered just by magnets and have tried and failed many times, but still I believe its possible. I feel in my gut that there has to be a way to isolate and shape a magnetic field for directional force, and make a motor out of just magnets. I think when we get into nano technology and to the point of programing metals and their properties, we could make our own characteristics for magnets and make different metals which would affect and be affected by fields as well. Who knows, materials in the right configuration could aready be out there. I don't think manipulating a gate is the answer. I think having no gate at all is what we need. Easy to say I know. Magnets can push, but they also pull it back. We need a magnet that only repels in one direction. Magnetic fields are circular or spherical, so we need a metal or reroute the field in one direction. There has to be some way to create a repulsion force in only one direction right? I just feel there has to be :/
QuoteI feel in my gut that there has to be a way to isolate and shape a magnetic field for directional force, and make a motor out of just magnets.
My gut disagrees with yours. While we (I) don't know exactly how a magnet works, we do know a lot about how they behave. Magnets act as a force on certain other objects. I think it can be fairly easily proven that you can't create a "closed" system of forces that will continue to cycle (perpetual motion).
A clock can run for a year or more from a wound spring - the spring acts as a force - until it is unwound. I think any magnetic arrangement will act the same way. The SMOT is a magnetic arrangement that in the initial position is "wound up". When the ball is released, the system "unwinds". The trick is to "wind" the system back up - get the ball back to the starting position - with less energy than will be gained by dropping the ball from the elevated level.
If you picture yourself floating in outer space, can you make yourself move? Yes, by taking off a shoe or something and throwing it away from you. You will accelerate in the opposite direction of the shoe. Now picture yourself in outer space in a large enclosed box. Throw your shoe. What happens? You accelerate one way, the shoe goes the other - then you hit the side of the box, the shoe hits the side of the box, and everything is back to the initial starting point. You can't change the course of the box floating in space by anything done inside the box. This is a "closed" system. No matter what you do inside the box, you will not permanently affect the course of the box. If the box is at rest, it will be at rest when movement stops inside the box. If it is moving at some particular speed and direction, it will be on that course when the movement inside the box stops. The course may be disturbed while objects are accelerating inside the box, but once the movement stops inside the box, the box will be precisely back at its initial condition.
This example may not seem to apply to magnetic arrangements, but it does. You can't align a bunch of forces in a closed system in such a way as to cause the forces to keep causing movement. The system will "unwind" and stop at some equilibrium. For the clock, this occurs when the spring is sufficiently unwound. For the smot this occurs when the ball is at the top of the ramp. For magnet motors this is at the "sticky spot".
Now, with outside impulses, I believe the story can be different. The trick is to find out what kind of outside impulse can be used to rewind the system, that takes less energy than is put in.
This is what Jack is trying to accomplish with his "valve". The theory is that the energy (about 8 watts) is less than the energy being derived from the rotation caused by the valve. The 8w is the "winding" power. The power at the output shaft is the derived power.
Then of course, I could be completely wrong. The bottom line is, we just don't know.
db
@All,
What's the story with Steorn, does anyone know? It's July already. Are they gonna have it on a public display and, if so, when?
It seems that Steorn are holding the demonstration which will last 10 days at the Kinetic Museum in the Spitalfields area of London. It should start on the 7/7/07. I hope that helps
Thanks a lot.
Hello guys.
Mr Jack W Hilden-Brands Magnet motor controller is making way fast now.
The electronic design is completed and I manufactured the prototype PCB yesterday.
If this controller doesn't help Jack to get overunity in his motor by letting it
run in self running mode while producing external work, then OU is not possible.
Below there is a list of the features in the controller.
Max 350VDC or 250VAC Input
High Efficiency DC-DC Conversion
DC-DC Short Circuit Protection
Motor Current Limited to 4 Amp
Full Recovery of Back EMF Current
Boosting Flux Respons Enhancement <--- This is where the magic happens :-)
Self Runner Feedback Prepared
Start-Up input for Self Runner Mode
Motor Voltage Regulation On-Board
Flux Response Outputs On-Board
Motor Voltage Outputs On-Board
Motor Current Outputs On-Board
I will mount the completed PCB in a aluminum housing to protect if from damage
and it will also look a lot better than just a raw PCB with components onto it.
Once completed I'll post outside and inside pictures of it here on Overunity.com.
Regards / Honk
Thanks Honk,
for the information. I was going to wait a couple more weeks before I started to pester you all again to see how things were proceeding. I am certain Jack will appreciate all the work you have put in. I presume you have still to mount all the components on the board and test it. Let's hope it works according to theory. they usually don't, then I think you know that. Things usually have to be tweaked. Its a pity I couldn't go over and install it on Jacks machine. I have worked most of my life in the electrical installation industry and I have spent a lot of time wiring up speciallised equipment. Jacks motors look beautifully made and I admire craftsmanship, it is usually the sign of a reasonable tidy mind. There is nothing worse than looking at a spaghetti nest when you open up a switch box. A tidy well crafted piece of work always impresses investor. It is now a matter of seeing how it works in practice, I await in anticipation.
Deep regards
Yorkshire Miner
Hello yorkshireminer
The controller works like a charm on a large laminated steel cored coil I got at 75mH inductance.
I have tested all of the new electronics within the controller mounted on a circuit board.
If I hadn't built and performed these test on the circuit board I could be sure of failure.
The question is whether the performance of Jacks motor is increased by my controller.
Myself I strongly believe that getting an instant field in the valve instead of a slow triangular
field will really boost the motors performance and allow high RPM:s with great HP output.
But I'm prepaired to instantly repair or modify the controller if the motor behaves in a way
that I cannot anticipate. Jack can send the controller to me and I 'll fix it at once.
Meantime while Jack is testing his motor and it works fine on the controller I'll build him another
one to be used on his big 5Hp motor. Once Jack releases his documents on the motor I will release
the documents on my Flux Booster Controller as well. There will be schematics, gerberfiles, PDF:s and
a Bill of material with lots of second sources.
Dear Honk,
thanks you once again, for the clear and precise information. I was just reading through the list of function and it seems ideal. I especially like the idea of outputs for measuring amps volts and flux, it will make testing so much easier, just plug your meters into the control panel. I am intrigued about how you are going to tackle Flux Response Enhancement, but I will keep my curiosity in check. I am certain Jack will be clucking round his play pen in Ohio like a chicken that has laid a Golden Egg, when he receives the controller. Lets hope everything goes according to plan. I have a good feeling about this.
Deep Regards
Yorkshire Miner
P.S. Hows things in Sweden at the moment? It is many years since I was up your neck of the woods. I read Swedish quiet well. I studied at Roskilde University in Denmark many years ago, and traveled a lot in Southern Sweden, it seems that you are having a little bit of trouble in Malmo at the moment, with the Muslims.
Thanks for that positive feedback. It gives me extra power to complete the controller.
I'd like to correct the name of the feature Flux Measurements Outputs On-Board.
To be more correct the name should be Flux Response Outputs On-Board.
This output makes it simple to see the rise and fall times of the coil current on a oscilloscope.
The Flux Response current rise time can be fine tuned by a small pot inside the Controller.
This is not accessible from the outside. It's set when tested and if tampered with while
running a motor and without having an oscillosope and knowledge the result can disastrous.
Funny that you can read Swedish!
Where are you from?
Regarding the muslims, I don't mind them as long as they don't make any trouble in Sweden.
Most of them don't but those who do I just feel sorry for.
If this motor really is OU then then we will get rid of most oil dependence and the world
might not mess around and upset the middle eastern countries any longer.
Hi Honk.
Svenska Yag!
My family came to the states from stockholm ;D
sugra
Another status report on the controller. ;D
I have mounted and tested the very important AC-DC convertor that will fit the
incoming voltage to the special needs of the motor. It makes self running possible
if the motor can deliver more out than in. It must be efficient to not waste energy.
Well, I'm happy with the stability and efficiency performance of the AC-DC.
It tested to be 92.2% efficient at 110V input and 45W output. It can deliver up to 85W.
You can't buy AC-DC adaptors with this level of efficiency. They are usually 82%
efficient at most (Premium converters).
Hello all.
The controller is finished. Iv'e tested it and it is working fine.
There's still some small issues that I will have to check more thoroughly
before I send the controller overseas to Jack to be tested on his fine motor.
Next week I will have vacation. I estimate I can send it the week after that.
Here's the pictures:
That's impressive honk. A really beautiful piece of craftsmanship!
If it works anything like it looks, that motor should purrrrrr...
Dan
Nice work. Looks like it matches Jack's own level of quality. Here's hoping it all works well together.
Les.
Dear Honk,
what a beautiful piece of work, I must congratulate you. I bet that old bugger in Ohio is making clucking sounds at this very moment. I am certain it is really appreciated and he will certainly put it to good use. I await with trepidation to see the results here on this thread.
Deep regards
Yorkshire Miner
Thank you all very much for the positive feedback. ;D
Today I managed to work some more on sorting out the last small issues.
I found a tiny booster bug that I corrected and also added a couple
of 100nF capacitors to improve the stability of the AC-DC converter.
Jack likes the look of the exterior and is really looking forward to test it.
Hopefully it will perform just as good as people hope and expect.
/Honk
Honk,
Nice job. I am progressing on an encoder based triggering circuit to feed the controller the trigger signals. We have a 4000 count per revolution encoder that we are connecting to a microcontroller. The microcontroller counts the pulses and generates trigger signals (3 phases) based upon the encoder position. We will couple the encoder to the shaft of the motor in place of the motorcycle points. We can adjust the phase and pulsewidth of the output signals dynamically.
This system should give us very close control of the timing.
I still haven't gotten down to visit Jack, but I hope to soon.
db
It's nice to have more solutions instead of just the points, which would work fine, but maybe
not as accurate as your encoder. I don't hope the encoder is more expensive than the points.
So far Jack and I have been working to let the points trigger the control signals to my controller.
This is an easy way for Jack, no motor modifications and it's easy for him to hook up the controller himself.
You must know that your cannot feed anything else to the controller except clean stable
signals for each valve. Your outputs must be an open collector circuit with no pullups.
Meaning that when one rotor is in start position you just need to pull down on the
output and when the rotor have moved to it's end position just release the pull down.
There must be no dips or other interuptions from your encoder while the rotor is in pull position.
Just one clean and stable pull down signal while the rotor is in pull mode.
QuoteIt's nice to have more solutions instead of just the points, which would work fine, but maybe
not as accurate as your encoder. I don't hope the encoder is more expensive than the points.
So far Jack and I have been working to let the points trigger the control signals to my controller.
This is an easy way for Jack, no motor modifications and it's easy for him to hook up the controller himself.
The encoder is probably higher cost than the points, but I am not seeking compensation for anything I am doing. (I don't think you are either.) The advantage of using the encoder for development is the ability to adjust the phase and pulsewidth while the motor is running, and to know exactly (to 1 part in 4000) what the timing is. I foresee that it may be necessary to change the timing based upon load and speed of the motor while it is in operation, similar to an automobile engine. We could do this easily with this approach. With mechanical points it is possible, but not practical.
QuoteYou must know that your cannot feed anything else to the controller except clean stable
signals for each valve. Your outputs must be an open collector circuit with no pullups.
Meaning that when one rotor is in start position you just need to pull down on the
output and when the rotor have moved to it's end position just release the pull down.
There must be no dips or other interuptions from your encoder while the rotor is in pull position.
Just one clean and stable pull down signal while the rotor is in pull mode.
our current output chip is an automotive IC that is used to operate things on vehicles by switching to ground. The capacity is 200 ma and the normal operating voltage is pulling 12v circuits to ground. Is your logic voltage greater than 12v? I will check the maximum allowable voltage of our output driver. A switched signal from a microcontroller will surely be as clean or cleaner than a signal generated by mechanical points.
P.S.
If Jack would like to do it with points, it is entirely up to him. Also, this is not necessarily intended as the "production" solution. It is just a good way to have tight control on the firing, and dynamic adjustment if it proves necessary.
Either way, I will complete the system, because there are many configurations discussed in magnet and pulse motors that would benefit from this type of controller. When it is finished, I will post information on it.
db
Hi Honk & Dingbat,
Great work on the controllers!
I hope the motor finally will pass the test!
I am a true beginner in electronics, but I had an idea for a controller some time back.
Isn't it possible to use digital hall effect switches or latches to control the operation of the valves?
It can be switched on and off as needed, and as a dabbler I would think that this method requires the least amount of energy to switch the valves on/off dependent on the rotor position only... So, whether loaded, and whatever speed it runs, it will do just the same, and with a speed change, the pulse width also changes correspondingly, i.e. the valves turned on / off for less time on greater speeds.
I know this idea involves complex driving electronics, but maybe the real problem is that I am a beginner in the subject. :) I don't know about the accuracy and problems of such controls.
Anyway, Wish you the best with this project.
You have already done a great work.
QuoteIsn't it possible to use digital hall effect switches or latches to control the operation of the valves?
Yes, that is another alternative. The advantages to an encoder is knowing at all times the position of the rotor, and being able to easily change the timing on the fly. No need for mechanical adjustments or rotating collars, etc.
QuoteIt can be switched on and off as needed, and as a dabbler I would think that this method requires the least amount of energy to switch the valves on/off dependent on the rotor position only... So, whether loaded, and whatever speed it runs, it will do just the same, and with a speed change, the pulse width also changes correspondingly, i.e. the valves turned on / off for less time on greater speeds.
Initially I think having precise control is more important than the few watts required for the trigger. The motor is supposed to be at least several horsepower, so if the control circuit consumes several watts it shouldn't be a significant factor. Once the timing is developed, the circuit can be replaced with another lower power method, if available. No switching circuit is devoid of power consumption. Even points consume mechanical power. Halls consume some power as well.
I don't think some of the questions about speed and load can be easily answered without testing.
Quote from: dingbat on July 26, 2007, 08:04:50 AM
The encoder is probably higher cost than the points, but I am not seeking compensation for anything I am doing.
I meant the price of the encoder and control board at mass production. ;)
Quote from: dingbat on July 26, 2007, 08:04:50 AM
our current output chip is an automotive IC that is used to operate things on vehicles by switching to ground. The capacity is 200 ma and the normal operating voltage is pulling 12v circuits to ground. Is your logic voltage greater than 12v? I will check the maximum allowable voltage of our output driver. A switched signal from a microcontroller will surely be as clean or cleaner than a signal generated by mechanical points.
Great. This is what I want.
I'm using 15V logic and a RC net at the controller input to filter out the glitches caused by the mechanical points.
So, your outputs must be able to pull down 15V 4.5mA. If not you can add extra pull down transistors.
Quote from: dingbat on July 26, 2007, 08:04:50 AM
Either way, I will complete the system, because there are many configurations discussed in magnet and pulse motors that would benefit from this type of controller. When it is finished, I will post information on it.
db
Sounds fine to me. Once Jack has released his motor I will also release the Flux Booster Controller.
As you said it, the many high inductance magnet and pulse motors could benefit a lot from my controller as well.
Quote from: dingbat on July 26, 2007, 09:37:54 AM
Initially I think having precise control is more important than the few watts required for the trigger. The motor is supposed to be at least several horsepower, so if the control circuit consumes several watts it shouldn't be a significant factor. Once the timing is developed, the circuit can be replaced with another lower power method, if available. No switching circuit is devoid of power consumption. Even points consume mechanical power. Halls consume some power as well.
I was just reading this message and I realised that we have to feed your CPU encoder board with voltage
comming from the generator when making the self runner.
My controller is designed and ready for self running mode but there is no supply output for any CPU board.
If you have a 110V converter to feed the CPU board from the generator voltage this will solve the problem.
Else way we have to use the points in self running mode. I know Jack will prepare his motors for the points
when building his motor. So this is not a hindrance.
Later,,,,,JackH
OK, let us use the points. No other solution is needed to get the motor up running.
All you have to do is to connect the points to the controller input and the valves to the output.
There you go....
QuoteHonk & dingbat,
Seems like this thing is getting very complicated again. I think Gregory has a good point. The turn on of the coils does not need to be complicated, the points will do the trick. If we need to go to something other than that, I think it should be either electric eyes or hall effect switches. Something that I understand and can work with. dingbat just does not seem to have time to come down to my shop to work with this kind of stuff, so I need it simple.
Later,,,,,JackH
Sorry. Just forget about the encoder idea and proceed with what you understand. That will be the best solution for you.
The suspense is killing me. Does the motor work?
Quote from: shruggedatlas on August 07, 2007, 12:13:58 AM
The suspense is killing me. Does the motor work?
Status Report:
Jack's motor is working just fine, like his other motors.
An earlier 2 valve motor from Jack has proven 200W out while consuming 130W, according to Jack.
His new 3 valve motors will work even better and their design is also improved to increase the performance.
Right now I have to test the controller on a real valve to make sure it will perform it's best on Jack motor.
I have been trying to convert some old transformers into a valve but it was not successful.
The machine shop I used at my work was not accurate enough to handle the fine tolerances needed.
Now I will try to buy some Non Oriented Silicon Steel and ship it to a friend of mine which will cut the
steel laminates into the desired shape by laser. By this way I will get myself 3 pcs of acccurate valves.
In these valves I will use either N52 rectangle or N42 cubes of neo magnets.
I hope these last readings really turns out good, before shipping the controller to Jack.
In worst case I'll have to ship the controller without having it tested on a real magnet valve situation.
/Honk
Later,,,,,JackH
I have already seen pictures on Jack's new motor but I'm equally impressed every time I see it.
It's such a beaut.....
Anyway, I baught 38lb of Non Oriented Silicon steel yesterday. It cost me $116.
Today it will be shipped to a friend of mine to be cut by laser into the desired shape.
I estimate I will recieve the the cut valve pieces sometime next week.
By then I should have received the 12pcs of N45, 40x18x10mm magnets (1.57x0.71x0.39 inch).
http://www.magnesy.eu/mpl-40-x-18-x-10-n45-magnes-neodymowy-p-113.html
This polish magnet supplier have pretty good prices on magnets here in europe.
I will use 4 of those magnets stacked in the valve to a 40x18x40mm magnet (1.57x0.71x1.57 inch).
The coils will be made of 470 turns of 0.8mm copper wire, 40mm long and 9mm deep. 0.8mm = AWG20
The resistance of the coil is calculated to 2.5R. The current at 12W input is 2.19Amp.
I will build three valves to simulate the three phases of the motor and then test the controller on this setup.
Before testing I will match the flux strength of the coil to match the strength of the magnet, just as Jack have told us.
@Jack
Whether it works OU or not, sir, you have built a beautiful piece of machine art!
Good luck and please make sure the measurements are done right and the techniques, setup and equipment used are scientifically accurate and clearly reported. Any machine that looks that robust and handsome deserves equally professional evaluation!
Humbugger
Later,,,,,,JackH
Very very nice.
Honk and Jack, when testing with those coils, be carefull not to disconnect them while they are energized. I was running an RV system off of an inverter, and while the PM was turning a full speed I wasn't thinking and simply pulled out the motor plug from the inverter. Bang, I fried the inverter. The BEMF just rushed back into the inverter and fried it. So always turn off the power before you disconnect anything. Especially if you only have one circuit. Inverters are a dime a dozen. So please protect the circuit.
Also, I am very very curious how you are handling the BEMF in your controller. Are you simply providing it a clean path to a capacitor or battery at collapse?
Quote from: wattsup on August 13, 2007, 12:10:29 AM
Also, I am very very curious how you are handling the BEMF in your controller.
Are you simply providing it a clean path to a capacitor or battery at collapse?
The Back EMF is handled by the "Boosting Flux Respons Enhancement feature"........and this is where the magic happens :-)
Later on I will release the schematic and gerber documents and also answer all your questions regarding the controller.
I still have to perform some very important valve tests before I know all about the controller and it's performance.
I'm not sure how the controller will handle a real Hilden-Brand magnet valve. When building 3 of those valves I can simulate a real 3 phase
motor motor by connecting them to the controller output and then I'll connect the controller input to a 3 bit decimal shift register.
The 3 bit decimal shift register will simulate the position feedback from the points and make it easy to simulate 10 RPM to 3000 RPM.
@Honk
Thanks for the heads up and I understand you are not talking about specifics of the circuit. Then maybe ask others here as I am sure you are already aware of others doing control or lack of control of BEMF. Look at the Otto - ECD threads. Most of the guys are saying their circuit is heating up and some have burned out.
At the 3000 rpm level the BEMF will be extreme so all I am saying is make double sure you know what you are doing. Consider having the straightest route to a (non circuit) BEMF absorber. Maintain the negative solid and switch the coil at each collapse out of the circuit to a cap or battery. If you are taking the BEMF into the circuit, you could risk overheating and energy loss. I did not notice any connection to your circuit for a large capacitor or battery control section to absorb the BEMF energy and release it, so I am a little worried. I am not an EE but when turning motors that develop a strong enough drag, the BEMF can be severe.
I can never be totaly sure that the controller won't break down if abused. This is why I have to build the test valves.
In the manual that Jack will read I will of course mention that never unplugg the controller while operating the motor.
This could for sure destroy the controller by the EMF spike.
In my test I have not seen worse EMF at higher RPM than lower RPM. It stays the same.
But when you increase the current you will also increase the back EMF as well.
When operating Jack's motor the current stays much the same at hard or light work. It's not like an ordinary motor.
This is how the motor is supposed to provide more out than in. At low RPM and fantastic torque to run a generator.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Just curious...I keep hearing that the BEMF stays the same regardles of RPM. That seems odd to me from an energy-integral perspective. It would be one thing that the individual BEMF power pulses each stay the same but don't they occur more often at higher RPM (thus representing more possibly destructive energy)?
Yes, they occur more often at higher rpm but each back emf pulse stays at the power level and voltage regardless of the rpm at load.
Is does not matter that they occur more often. The controller will handle the emf spike and return it to the coil of the next phase. This will save energy.
At 500 RPM the motor generates 50 back emf spikes/second. At 3000 RPM the motor generates 300 back emf spikes/second.
But 300Hz of back emf spikes is no match for modern electronics that can easily cope with many hundreds of thousands hertz.
Nice motor Jack!
As I see you use three rotors, 1 valve per rotor, and a 120 degrees offset for the timing of the valves, I guess.
Great setup, I like it. Best of luck to you & Honk!
There is an option mentioned before, to gear down the rotational output of the motor, and attach it to a low Rpm windmill generator. But now as I read you are planning to build a generator to exactly fit with the requirements of the new motor.
So, at what Rpm level you are planning to run the self-running test?
Quote from: Honk on August 14, 2007, 04:07:52 AM
Yes, they occur more often at higher rpm but each back emf pulse stays at the power level and voltage regardless of the rpm at load.
Is does not matter that they occur more often. The controller will handle the emf spike and return it to the coil of the next phase. This will save energy.
At 500 RPM the motor generates 50 back emf spikes/second. At 3000 RPM the motor generates 300 back emf spikes/second.
But 300Hz of back emf spikes is no match for modern electronics that can easily cope with many hundreds of thousands hertz.
Hi Honk,
Do you find that the bemf pulses are of a higher impedance nature and return in a form of much higher voltage and lower current than the voltage that the motor normally operates on? I notice this on 6 or 12v relay coils etc... (It may depend on the number of turns in the coil). To avoid an impedance mismatch and power loss from the bemf pulse, does the circuit step down the pulse to a lower, more managable voltage and useable current before returning it to the motor for usable power, and can the electronics handle the high voltage spike that occurs on bemf pulses?
Quote from: Honk on August 14, 2007, 04:07:52 AM
Yes, they occur more often at higher rpm but each back emf pulse stays at the power level and voltage regardless of the rpm at load.
Is does not matter that they occur more often. The controller will handle the emf spike and return it to the coil of the next phase. This will save energy.
At 500 RPM the motor generates 50 back emf spikes/second. At 3000 RPM the motor generates 300 back emf spikes/second.
But 300Hz of back emf spikes is no match for modern electronics that can easily cope with many hundreds of thousands hertz.
@Honk...okay...sounds like you've got it under control then...thanks for clarifying. By the way, as a fellow product developer (power electronics) I have to say I'm impressed with your speed and professional-looking job on the controller. It looks kind of small to me, and I was taken aback by the 20W worth of big sandbox resistors there (for a 45w unit running 92% eff, that must be pretty extreme overkill on something!), but I'm not privy to the specs and requirements, so, I guess I will just have to wonder!
My last high power project was using RF HV Mosfets in a extremely compact 96VDC-to-40.68MHz RF generator of 1200W RFoutput. It took a year for me to develop. These RF generators are, since 2001, used in every Synrad F-series Firestar CO2 laser from 100W to 400W optical output. I mention this so that you will understand I am aware of what modern electronics can handle. The biggest problem I had was a back-emf problem that is a bit different than in motors and electromagnets.
In RF-driven laser tubes, there is typically a very high Q resonant circuit driven by RF which is used both for ignition and running modes. To strike the plasma up in these particular tubes, reactive power well in excess of 20KVAR is required to be shoved into this ultra-hi-Q internal network consisting of the laser tube's inherent inter-electrode capacitances and a set of a dozen or so gold-plated beryllium-copper inductors placed in parallel over the length of the electrodes.
Fortunately, the ignition only requires a few microsecond long pulse at 40.68 MHz so it can be done with the same RF amp, but, when the laser tube won't light up for some reason (bad gas mix, off-tuned resonator, whatever) all hell would break loose at the end of the ignition pulse when the energy stored in that ultra high Q circuit would come flying back into the RF output stage, whose MOSFETs were now all off. This brought some pretty big energy with rising voltages that occasionally went past the 500V rating and the avalanche rating of the MOSFETs...bang! Took some doing to resolve.
Normally, once the plasma in the tube began to form, it would easily absorb all the energy and things ran just fine...no back-spike at all. All that reactive power would change to true power, asthe plasma load is like a nice big resistor and the RF tuning was set up for low VSWR during run-mode as opposed to start mode.
It sounds like, when I hear that the back emf from the motor is 2/3 of the input power on an ongoing basis no matter the RPM or mechanical load...well...the only way I could think to explain that is poor coupling between electromagnets and motor armature but that makes no sense if the motor is really as efficient as purported! I often wonder how much of my (and others) confusion comes from not communicating on the same wavelength with the same terminology and how much comes from not measuring things correctly.
Seems like in a motor where the coefficient of coupling was extremely high, the input current and BEMF would be highly dependent on mechanical loading! Anyway...you guys are doing some really neat looking work and with what appears to be top-notch skill levels...world-class actually. I sure hope the concept pans out for you, fellas! I'm an OU skeptic, as you may have gathered.
Quote from: Liberty on August 14, 2007, 09:15:31 AM
Hi Honk,
Do you find that the bemf pulses are of a higher impedance nature and return in a form of much higher voltage and lower current than the voltage that the motor normally operates on? I notice this on 6 or 12v relay coils etc... (It may depend on the number of turns in the coil). To avoid an impedance mismatch and power loss from the bemf pulse, does the circuit step down the pulse to a lower, more managable voltage and useable current before returning it to the motor for usable power, and can the electronics handle the high voltage spike that occurs on bemf pulses?
Hi
You are close in some of your assumption's but still far away from how the controller handle the back emf.
Be patient....hehehe....sometime in the close future I will reveal the secret of the Flux Booster Controller. ;D
Quote from: Humbugger on August 14, 2007, 10:38:18 AM
.....
It sounds like, when I hear that the back emf from the motor is 2/3 of the input power on an ongoing basis no matter the RPM or mechanical load...well...the only way I could think to explain that is poor coupling between electromagnets and motor armature but that makes no sense if the motor is really as efficient as purported! I often wonder how much of my (and others) confusion comes from not communicating on the same wavelength with the same terminology and how much comes from not measuring things correctly.
Seems like in a motor where the coefficient of coupling was extremely high, the input current and BEMF would be highly dependent on mechanical loading! Anyway...you guys are doing some really neat looking work and with what appears to be top-notch skill levels...world-class actually. I sure hope the concept pans out for you, fellas! I'm an OU skeptic, as you may have gathered.
Hi Humbugger,
May I kindly draw your attention to a link below, where you can get yourself introduced to the working principle of Jack's valve. He says his valve is able to switch on or off a strong permanent magnet. I write this because from the above text it seems you have not fully in his motor principle. I would be pleased to read your opinion once you have read this link:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Director:Hilden-Brand_Electromagnet_Motor
Regards
Gyula
Quote from: Humbugger on August 14, 2007, 10:38:18 AM
I'm impressed with your speed and professional-looking job on the controller.
Thank you very much. I take great pleasures in making my designs both look good and work good at extreme efficiencies.
Quote from: Humbugger on August 14, 2007, 10:38:18 AM
It looks kind of small to me, and I was taken aback by the 20W worth of big sandbox resistors there (for a 45w unit running 92% eff, that must be pretty extreme overkill on something!), but I'm not privy to the specs and requirements, so, I guess I will just have to wonder!
The PCB measures 87 x 128.5mm and it contains a very high efficiency (92%) AC-DC converter, a 3 phase controller, a 110V
generator sustain unit and a back EMF protection unit and this is what the big sandwiched power resistor are used for.
In case the controller cannot handle the back EMF by a mismatch or some other reason then some of the excess energy is
dumped into the resistors to protect the controller from to high levels of back EMF voltage. The protective back EMF unit
shall not be activated during normal use of the controller. This is purely a safety unit and can be excluded in mass production
when the controller is matched to the motor. If the resistors are running hot during Jack's tests we will have to adjust the
controller to fit the motor more closely.
@gyulasun
Thanks for the link...I had been looking for more info on the principal behind this motor. It also led back to a huge thread here at overunity I hadn't found before where Jack started a discussion on his motor but then apparently pulled all of his posts at some point...makes it hard to follow now.
The basic idea, it seems, stems from the purported ability to either nullify or quadruple the field strength of a particular cylindrical magnet surrounded by a particular ferrous sleeve and the whole assembly surrounded by a solenoid coil. It is claimed that this manipulation is done with a mere 8W of DC power for the magnets and sleeves described. There is an implication that the "magnetic force" being controlled is very much larger than the "electrical force" used to control it.
What I don't understand is that, if all of the above were indeed true, why bother building a motor with it? Especially if the plan is to run a generator with the motor to get back to electrical output.
Why not just use this huge magnetic flux variation that is being controlled by a tiny amount of electrical power applied apparently in well-orchestrated pulses and just hang some pickup coils on it? What is the advantage of going mechanical and then back to electrical?
If anyone figures out how to modulate big permanent magnetic fields and make them vary from zero to 4x rapidly, using only a relatively tiny amount of electrical energy, then a MEG-like solid state device would seem to be far preferred to a rotary motor/generator unless there was some need for rotary torque output. If the idea is electricity in/electricity out over unity (which would be a truly wonderful thing), what's the point of moving and spinning a bunch of physical mass in between?
Am I being dense here? Have I missed something? Seems like a lot of these OU inventions have way more elements than needed...let's find the part of the invention responsible for the OU and keep it simple from there!
@Honk...sounds like you're maybe not too sure you can guide the BEMF pulses to the right place at the right time So the resistors are there to absorb the unlikely excess, eh? 27K ohms 10W...you must be expecting some pretty high-voltage pulses!
By "small" I meant that I somewhere got the idea that this new motor was supposed to put out several horsepower while only drawing 300-400W of input power...must be confused with another project maybe...been reading about dozens lately! I was just surprised to see your small input bulk-storage cap and modest 45W rating and no heatsinking of MOSFETS or whatever your switching elements are, that's what I meant by "seems small"...I was thinking several hundred wattswould be needed for some reason.
Anyhoo...please don't mistake my generally skeptical attitude for any kind of personal disrespect. You guys are building very cool projects that show a lot of savvy and tremendously polished skills. I just ain't quite convinced of the soundness or clarity of the underlying principals involved. I tend to "believe" only after I fully "understand". My downfall, I'm sure...
@Humbugger
I gathered from your reponses sometimes that you had some skeptical streak which in itself is very useful indeed. May you keep it in good measure always.
You and Honk should go and take a look at the thread I started here
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2944.0.html
Actually, my idea is alot like @Humbugger was saying about why turning the rotor.
If you have any ideas, I'm all ears.
Also, the guys working on Otto's ECD could use some of your RF savvy I am sure. The thread ends near here
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2535.890.html
I took a look at the web site for your RF device you have developped located here
http://synrad.com/ and it is very impressive indeed.
All the best.
Quote from: Humbugger on August 14, 2007, 01:34:52 PM
@Honk...sounds like you're maybe not too sure you can guide the BEMF pulses to the right place at the right time So the resistors are there to absorb the unlikely excess, eh? 27K ohms 10W...you must be expecting some pretty high-voltage pulses!
I know for sure that I "can guide" the pulses exactly where I want them to go "at the right time". No problems with that.
If the back EMF should get any higher than the transistors in the controller can handle then I can "tune" the back EMF level by a potentiometer.
But I'm living in Sweden and I cannot just go over there and help Jack when he's ready to hook up the controller to his motor.
This is why I have added the protection circuit. It will acctually never reach any 20W when activated. 3-7W is more like it.
It is operating by small pulses that adjust the back EMF voltage to a safe level, but only when needed at mismatch.
Quote from: Humbugger on August 14, 2007, 01:34:52 PM
By "small" I meant that I somewhere got the idea that this new motor was supposed to put out several horsepower while only drawing 300-400W of input power...must be confused with another project maybe...been reading about dozens lately! I was just surprised to see your small input bulk-storage cap and modest 45W rating and no heatsinking of MOSFETS or whatever your switching elements are, that's what I meant by "seems small"...I was thinking several hundred wattswould be needed for some reason.
You are right, Jack's motor will consume approx 200-300 watt and putting out several Hp when running on points only.
The whole idea with my controller is that I can make the motor run at full load at almost static valve power e.g 20-25W.
The AC-DC within the controller is was tested at 45W, not rated. It's rated to 85W. I could of course deliver more power from
a 92% efficient AC-DC but there is no gain in feeding more current to the valves of the motor. It would just destroy the magnets.
Quote from: Humbugger on August 14, 2007, 01:34:52 PM
....
What I don't understand is that, if all of the above were indeed true, why bother building a motor with it? Especially if the plan is to run a generator with the motor to get back to electrical output.
Why not just use this huge magnetic flux variation that is being controlled by a tiny amount of electrical power applied apparently in well-orchestrated pulses and just hang some pickup coils on it? What is the advantage of going mechanical and then back to electrical?
Hi Humbugger,
Thanks for your thoughts. I think an answer to your above question is Lenz law: if you want to use the big flux change, you are to use output coils that create counter flux in the closed flux path that includes the input coil. When you use the big flux change for mechanical advantage, there cannot be so much Lenz effect in the same way... Agree?
Quote from: Humbugger on August 14, 2007, 01:34:52 PM
....
If anyone figures out how to modulate big permanent magnetic fields and make them vary from zero to 4x rapidly, using only a relatively tiny amount of electrical energy, then a MEG-like solid state device would seem to be far preferred to a rotary motor/generator unless there was some need for rotary torque output. If the idea is electricity in/electricity out over unity (which would be a truly wonderful thing), what's the point of moving and spinning a bunch of physical mass in between?
Am I being dense here? Have I missed something? Seems like a lot of these OU inventions have way more elements than needed...let's find the part of the invention responsible for the OU and keep it simple from there!
I agree, and the only part should be Jack's valve as the origin of OU: of course we should continue waiting for Jack's patents coming out as granted, for he then will explain some more of his secrets... ;) at least he wrote that!
On MEG-like device: again Lenz law is there and it somehow ought to be avoided. Maybe you have been puzzled by that?
Thanks
Regards, Gyula
Later,,,,,,JackH
I have some bad news to report.
My friend with the laser machine tried to cut the non oriented lamintes yesterday
but he was not successful. The laser had troubble finding the surface due to the
black coating of the steel. And the material was so thin that it got bent by the
force from the cooling breeze and the laser got out of focus.
He figures he has to build a fixture to be able to cut the thin lamintes and this will
take a lot more time, probably several months before he can get the jobb done.
This is not good news. I really needed to test the controller more thoroughly.
I guess I'll have to use my original coils and just base my final testing on them.
I don't like it but there is no other way right now.
The next controller for Jack I can probably test on the magnet valves when or if they arrive.
I will probably send Jack the controller sometime two weeks from now.
I must say I'm really impressed by Jack's hard work to make the motors look so good.
It's such a beautiful piece of craftmanship. Let's hope it does provide plenty of overunity.
Quote from: gyulasun on August 14, 2007, 06:06:52 PM
Thanks for your thoughts. I think an answer to your above question is Lenz law: if you want to use the big flux change, you are to use output coils that create counter flux in the closed flux path that includes the input coil. When you use the big flux change for mechanical advantage, there cannot be so much Lenz effect in the same way... Agree?
I don't agree. The Lenz law is reintroduced when you hook up the motor to a generator.
At increasing load the generator will get harder and harder to turn and this is the Lenz law.
If using the motor for a car, then the increasing need for power at increasing speed equals the Lenz law.
But if the Valve does work as intended then we have something more powerful than the force of the Lenz law and this means OVERUNITY with big capitals....
And then all kinds of power generation will open up. MEG:s, Motor/Generators, Cars, Boats, Airplane Motion and new ways we can't even imagine yet...and so on.
But I guess we have to go back to propeller planes if we want to use the motor for flying. ;)
Hi Honk,
Thanks for clarifying this.
Gyula
I have now sent the controller to Jack.
Let us all hope for the best.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Quote from: JackH on September 04, 2007, 10:32:53 PM
Hello All,
Now you can beleive this or not, I don't care. I'm telling the truth.
Well I worked all day yesterday and today. I finally got the motor
running on all three valves, with the points. At a one hundred volts DC
the motor draws around .50 amps. I can pull it down to about 1500 rpm at
.50 amps, thats only 50 Watts. The cap I am running to stop the ark on
the points is 6 in serious, thay are 33 MF feed through caps. With 6 in serious
that means that they are about 5.5 MF. It is running real good at 100
volts DC.
Now here comes the good part. I increased the voltage to 150 and the motor
really came alive. It ran at about 4000 rpm and was only using about .50
amps at 150 volts dc. I tryed to pull it down and maybe I could knock of
around 500 rpm(3600 rpm) and it still ran at .60 amps at 150 volts dc. Thats only 90
watts of power.
I set up a 1/2 hp motor that ran around 1500 rpm just to test the power I
could stop the 1/2 hp motor with a pair of lether gloves. With this new
motor I could not stop it using 100 volts DC, I could only pull it down to
around 1500 rpm, that was only 50 Watts.. Now running it on 150 volts DC
I could only pull it down to around 3600 rpm, only .60 amps, that was only 90
watts of power.
I think I may have wound the coils with to small of wire. But maybe it
will be just right with the controller. I think we may have a winner
here. Honk wants to leave the coils the way they are for right now, for testing
the controller.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Sounds amazing, Jack! You must be really excited! Sounds like you should easily be able to go closed loop with any old generator! Go for it!
Humbugger
This is definately the most interesting project on this site. Well done Jack. I really hope this is overunity.
Regards
Albert
Hi Jack,
Looking good mate! Keep us informed.
I was wondering, what is the size of one air gap on your big valve system?
Thanks!
Steven
I really hope you get what you want JackH, you did really make a piece of art (which more importantly seems to work!).
Cheers.
Dear Jack,
thanks for the great news, I have been keeping my curiosity in check for the last few weeks, and I am looking forward to the report of how it works with Honk's great controller, both may I add beautifully crafted pieces of workmanship. If the figures that you quote are correct, and I don't for a moment think that they are not,they just sound so fantastic, then it should be possible to run an alternator of the rotor shaft. Alternators usually start producing electricity at about 1,500 revs which is what you say your motor runs at with 50 watts consumption. Alternators supply I think about 50 amps at 12 volts, it should be then possible to feed it back into a battery bank and use the battery bank to supply your motor. You will most likely have to use a converter to get it back up to 100 volts and that means double losses, but it certainly seems feasible with how you say your motor performs to get it running in self running mode. A dynomometer test on your motor should give you the correct output figures for your motor then you can work it out for your self. This was just a cheap and dirty suggestion of testing your motor for self running without too much expense. I hope that you don't think me impertinent.
By the way Jack how is your patent coming along? I think you told us a couple of months ago that you should be getting it about now. Dragging there feet still are they? I would hate not to see you get one. The patent office have got I think 5,000 patents that the U.S. have confiscated because they were a threat or a perceived threat to U.S. Security. I think that it is paragraph 181 of the U.S. Patent act that give them the right to confiscated your patent without compensation and they can threaten you with 20 years in prison if you divulge it or even talk about it. I would be very careful who I talked too if I were to get this running in self running mode, and I hadn't got my patent. Anyway Jack all the best and I am looking forward to seeing the results when you run it with Honk's great controller, in hopefully a couple of weeks time. I still don't know what I admire best the workmanship or just the simplicity of the idea
Deep Regards
Yorkshire Miner
Quote from: yorkshireminer on September 05, 2007, 08:00:26 AM
This was just a cheap and dirty suggestion of testing your motor for self running without too much expense.
Just to satisfy your curiosity I can tell you that the controller have full self-runner support including an AC-DC converter
that will fit the voltage coming from the generator (60-280VAC, 2 or 3 phases) into the needs of the motor.
Dear honk,
it can't get much better than that, I am certainly looking forward to see how the motor runs with your controller, thanks for the reply
Deep Regards
Yorkshire Miner.
Well, looking good indeed.
I would not try an alternator. They are total hogs. You are better off with a well matched AC generator, but I guess you know all this anyways.
Based on what Jesse McQueen said about patenting, if your patent claims OU and can show the patent office it works, they will patent it. But again, with all the stories we've heard about patents, who's to say. You are maybe better off patenting it as a fly swatter, and then us it for what you want.
@Honk
Now that you're turning your thumbs with nothing to do, care for some more ideas? lol I have this circuit that I took off a flying saucer and would require some reverse engineering.lol
Later,,,,,JackH
Mr Jack.
I wish you the best of luck when you try out the combined controller and magnet motor.
I do hope you realise that we all would like to see the motor in a self-running closed loop to
prove the overunity claim of your motor. Don't forget the external loads and clearly measure
and display the total workload. Avoid strange angels that hide parts of your motor while running.
Please post the video at either OU forum or Youtube for us to watch.
I believe Stefan Hartmann, the moderator of overunity.com can help you upload the video.
Quote from: wattsup on September 05, 2007, 02:22:11 PM
@Honk
Now that you're turning your thumbs with nothing to do, care for some more ideas? lol I have this circuit that I took off a flying saucer and would require some reverse engineering.lol
Hehehe. I'd love to reverse engineer something from a UFO...but unfortionately I don't believe they exist.
Anyway, I'm busy designing a new, smaller and improved powersupply for my portable work PC.
I'm also making an electronic eye unit to replace the motor cycle points and I'll send it to Jack when ready.
When I got some extra design spare time I spend it designing a Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor.
As soon as OU is confirmed (hopefully), I will press the start button and make such a motor of my own.
Quote from: Honk on September 06, 2007, 06:56:09 AM
Hehehe. I'd love to reverse engineer something from a UFO...but unfortionately I don't believe they exist.
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT6417597
^_^
Well, you are right about the news part. They mostly come when there is something interesting to tell.
Jack received the controller and hooked it up to the motor.
Unfortionately the motor did not respond well to the controller. It just ran at 60 RPM:s.
It seemed like there was a mismatch and the controller did not flux boost the coils as intended.
When developing the controller I sometimes noticed this phenomena but it was happening so unfrequently
that I could not examine why this would happen. I never got the big test valves built before sending the controller to jack.
Right now I got the controller back at home. This week I have been building three big magnet boosted valves.
They are really big and heavy. Each valve weighs 44 lb and has a stack of 1.5" x 1.5" N45 neos inserted.
The coils will each have 520 turns and the resistance is 3 ohms. I hope this is enough to test the controller.
It's important that the coils get a very high inductance in order to match and simulate Jack's motor.
I will also upgrade the controller with new features.
1) A EMF flux booster starter unit to help the controller get up running OK when hooked up to unknown coils/jacks motor.
2) A auto RPM current/voltage regulator. It will force the right amount of preset current through the coils regardless of the RPM.
3) Slighty increased maximum motor voltage from 22V to 26V.
4) A more secure gate drive to help the controller get into flux boost mode.
If these new upgrades and using the test valves does not help Jack run his motor I will build him another more straight forward controller.
It will not have flux boosting but instead it will have a Back EMF return unit to increase the efficiency of the motor.
The other old booster features will be present, like Self Runner prepared and so on.
I guess I can send Jack the improved controller sometimes next week. Please stay tuned.
Hey there Jack!!!!
Why did you remove your previous posts?
We want to follow your progress!
@Ergo
I think Jack maybe just came back from his patent attorneys office and the attorneys first question was "Is this device publicized anywhere? If yes, can it be removed?".
Business is business and Jack openly stated his intentions to patent his device, so this should not be a surprise to anyone.
So guys, don't hound him for this.
I only wish him all the best. The guy made a very nice piece of machinery and once Honk works out the bugs on his circuit, he is probably anticipating very good results. Can't be too careful.
Hi all.
The big test coils arrived on friday and Iv'e been working all weekend testing the controller and its new features.
I discovered that my current power stage cannot handle both the AC-DC conversion and the added Booster helper circuit.
Yesterday late evening I designed another parallel power stage to be used entirely to run the Booster helper.
This one I will fabricate tonight and mount tomorrow. Once mounted and tested I'm almost ready to ship the improved
controller back to Jack for another round. I do hope it will work out as intended this time.
The only uncertainty left is the fact that the Magnet Boosted Valves I have built for the testing purposes did not reach the
same high inductance values as Jack does in his motor. This can still cause problems. It very difficult to build an advanced
controller with advanced features and not have a motor to test it on during development... ;)
If it does not work out I will build Jack an ordinary straight forward controller to speed up his final goal of OU.
It will have all features of the old controller besides the Flux Booster effect. If it's neccesary to build a new
controller I guess we will have to wait some more to hear about the end result.
I have attached two pics on one of the three Test Valves I have built. It's big and bulky. It weighs about 25lb.
Jack have just received the improved controller and he tells me he will test it tomorrow night.
Thumbs up. Lets hope for success this time.
Later,,,,,,JackH
I'm was sorry to hear about the controller not working the second time around.
Well, here's my letter to jack.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Jack.
I sorry about the improved controller not working out with you fine motor. Right now I don't know why its not compatible?
The only solution as I see it is to build you a straight forward controller with no fancy features to get your motor up running.
I will start-up the cad-work at once today and work as fast as I can to make the new controller. Sorry for another delay
In my lab the Flux booster controller worked perfectly on my own valve coils. I guess there must be someother features in your motor not liking my controller.
You can send the old broken controller back to me and I'll speed up buildning the new ordinary controller. I guess I can have it ready to ship within two weeks.
Sincerely / H
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, there you have it. Another boring delay while I finishes the new regular controller.
Quote from: JackH on November 14, 2007, 05:05:41 PM
Hello All,
Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the controller will not work the second time. It would only run the motor at about 75 rpm's and after three minutes it blowed the fuse. I installed another fuse and it blowed it as sone as I pluged it in.
I am waithing on Honk's reply.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Use lamps (bulbs) insted of fuses - solong the fuse bowed up.
tan you can work on the device , solong , if that you find the source of this misworking.
take lanks strong enougth (not resistors)
because the cold-resistance of lamps is lower , as when the lightning). I worke ober 50 years onls This Way. with all Tube Transistors and elektronic equipments an developments
Pese
Forget the bulb sugggestion.
If the fuse is blown the controller is broken.
But I'll fix it when it's returned to me.
@Honk
Is Jacks' device so out of the ordinary (well I know it is just by the looks of it) that he could not use a standard off-the-shelf PWM driver just to get it going. I'm sure he is really itching to get it going.
Quote from: wattsup on November 15, 2007, 10:00:44 AM
@Honk
Is Jacks' device so out of the ordinary (well I know it is just by the looks of it) that he could not use a standard off-the-shelf PWM driver just to get it going. I'm sure he is really itching to get it going.
You cannot use high frequency PWM signals to operate the motor.
Later,,,,,JackH
Quote from: JackH on November 15, 2007, 07:22:10 PM
Hello All,
I am sure that Honk has been working very hard on this controller, for a long trime. However it is very hard to build something for a motor that you don't have in your shop, I have tryed to tell Honk what this motor needs, but I am sure that maybe I have left out something very importent. This motor need a very special controller, just any controller of the shelf will not work. I have confidence that he will get it correct in time.
Thanks Honk,
Later,,,,,JackH
Thank you very much for still having confidence in me.
I will speed up development on the new controller to let you have it as soon as possible.
Dear Jack and Honk,
just a suggestion, it is the same motor that Jack used with the points, when Jack used the points it worked well when it coupled it up to your controller it didn't, could it be that the working of the motor is influenced by the fact that with a points system you will get a lot of dirty pulses spikes and harmonics that you have filtered out with your controller. Perhaps a sort of chaotic behavior is needed in the pulse to really get it to work. Is there a way of simulating this with your controller. It seems to me that perhaps the voltage Jack is using will keep the switch working but what is needed is perhaps a very very short pulse spike of a much higher voltage to trigger the switch a short high voltage spike wouldn't register on Jacks voltmeters, just a thought, from somebody who really wants to see this work. By the way Jack have you got your patent yet?
Deep Regards
Yorkshire Miner
Later,,,,,,,JackH
Hello Jack,
Have you thought about getting a patent outside of the US first, then use the PCT treaty back into the US (through the back door)?
Hello Liberty,
Yes we are going to file a PCT for outside the USA, and then we may need to do a reverse. I just hope I can do that without too much cost.
Later,,,,,,,JackH
The new regular controller Schematic and PCB layout is finished.
Tonight I will etch the PCB and during the weekend I will start mounting the components.
The features of the new controller:
95 - 250 VAC input.
48-170 DC Adjustable Motor Voltage regardless of the input voltage.
High Efficiency AC-DC converter.
Self Runner prepared from generator closed loop.
Back EMF Recover Technology to increase motor efficiency.
110V Generator Hold unit. (This feature auto adjusts the motor voltage to sustain 110V output from the generator)
The new controller will fit in the same housing as the old one.
This will shorten the development time and I might be able to ship Jack the new controller within the promised two week timeframe.
The new Hilden-Brand Controller v2.0 is mounted and ready for testing on the magnet valves I built earlier.
Enjoy the attached picture.
@Honk
That is just one remarkable piece of EE. I'll take two to go.lol
Son of a gun. Based on where my brother works in EE, (he does the machine language) such a design would normally require a team of developers, a group leader and a whole slew of other crazies. And you did this all alone. I am just amazed at your talent and abilities.
So when do we start a business.
Jack, you are ONE HELL OF A LUCKY GUY.
Let's all cross our fingers.
Yeah, If someone's gonna do it, it's Honk. Great work, skill and knowledge.
Thanks for your positive feedback. ;D
The test phase will probably start tomorrow.
I have some business to take care of at first.
It will be nice to see the controller run the valves.
Beautiful work Honk. I'm truly amazed at list of features that you have in this controller.
However, I do have a comment about your test valve pictures. I always thought that starting from right to left would be the magnets, then the coil section, then the stator section. So that the magnets flux would first be going thru the lamination in the coil section, it being the closest, until the coil is turned on to switch the flux from the electromagnet and the magnet into the stator section. In JackH's original concept, he had a soft iron core completely around the magnet to stop any flux from going any where else, until the soft iron core was switched.
If I'm understanding your picture correctly, the magnets on your valve seem the be a little closer to the stator section, and magnets being lazy will flux to the nearest steel. This would seem to reduce the flux moving to the stator, since it is probably partial saturated, and also reduce the back emf.
Please excuse if this is a dumb misunderstanding on my part, but I'm really excited about JackH's testing.
Regards,
LarryC
.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Quote from: LarryC on December 07, 2007, 04:34:46 PM
If I'm understanding your picture correctly, the magnets on your valve seem the be a little closer to the stator section,and magnets being lazy will flux to the nearest steel.
This would seem to reduce the flux moving to the stator, since it is probably partial saturated, and also reduce the back emf.
The flux will "as you say" take the shortest path, but it prefers the easiest path with the lowest resistance.
The yellow tape seen at the stator end is acctually 0.1mm (0,004") thick and this presents the air gap in Hilden-Brands motor.
The flux from the magnets will take the route through the coil core because there is no air gap.
When the coil is energized to the same flux level as the magnets it prevents the magnet flux from passing the core.
Instead both sources of flux will pass through the rotor piece at the taped end. Right pass the 0.1mm air gap (0,004")
When the coil is turned of the magnet flux will return to the easy and non gapped solid core of the coil.
Congrats Jack and Honk !!!!!
Beautiful work.
Anxious to see the two working together.
Jack hows the wire supply holding out ?
Jon
Later,,,,,,,JackH
Looks Great !!!
If you need some 15 let me know. Also have great connections on sprockets..chain..bearings etc. Spent 20 years in that business and still have a bunch of it. Can get anything still. Get me a list and I can ship it out. That stuff I can supply to you for nothing in most cases. Great to see some progress.
Jon
Magnet switching motor used by Axle Corporation for motorcycles. Basic design is different, but it is using similar switching to JackH's current motor. Please check out
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2007/10/super-efficient.html
http://www.genesis-corp.co.jp/e/e401.html
http://www.genesis-corp.co.jp/j507.html
These documents have interesting performance analysis and one stated it had four times more torque.
Any comments appreciated!
LarryC
If they can maintain the regular RPM at the four times higher Torque claim, they got themselves an Overunity motor.
As you probably know, Torque times Speed = Hp Power.
But perhaps their marketing is exaggerating the claims as usually when new stuff is hyped.
http://www.genesis-corp.co.jp/e/e502.html
As far as I see it, this is exactly the working principle of Jack's valve, The only difference being, the coil is placed at the side of the magnet rather than around the magnet. I seem to recall that Jack also used that arrangement in his motors also?
Actually the genesis website doesn't appear to have been updated since 2002.........
dooughhh!!! :o
Quote from: Honk on December 11, 2007, 07:22:27 AM
dooughhh!!! :o
Not sure I understand, can you elaborate?
Have I said something stupid?? ???
No, nothing stupid. It was just me acting like Homer when something is feeling wrong.... ;D
If the site haven't been updated since 2002 then it's either forgotten or more probable they don't exist (or the product) as a company anymore.
Oppps, looks like the Genesis motorbike does exist. :-[
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=trws3k9vq6M&feature=related
Honk, would you agree that it seems to be the same principle behind Jack's technology? They claim on their website overunity, with the energy being provided by the magnets.
Yes, it does look very similar, but the size of the iron pieces are important
to avoid saturating the material. The pic show to small pieces but this
is probably just a drawing error. And magnets used are very small in the pics.
From the video, you can see NFK Group Genesis. Not sure what the NFK stands for, could be Nippon, etc. , etc. But more references to the motorbike can found under that name I'm thinking that Genesis is now a subsiderary of NFK Group.
The inventor is Sanshiro Ogino and has about 6 US patents. Some are motor generators.
The following site http://www.genesis-corp.co.jp/type2.html ,has an interesting comment about making a prototype from a stepper motor.
Also this has info on the company and inventor http://www.genesis-corp.co.jp/e/e202.html.
I had trouble with flux leakage on my test valve, even with the .1 mm tape. So I had to reduce my magnets to a somewhat similar level.
Regards,
LarryC
Quote from: Honk on December 11, 2007, 12:40:40 PM
Yes, it does look very similar, but the size of the iron pieces are important
to avoid saturating the material. The pic show to small pieces but this
is probably just a drawing error. And magnets used are very small in the pics.
The drawing seems correct. The following site has a video showing the actual magnet unit http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.axle-group.com/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=9&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DAxle%2Bcorporation%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4GGIE_enUS237US237%26pwst%3D1 . Hope it works, this is a google translated version.
Sorry guys, that site didn't make it. But it goes to a site where if you click on ' SUMO is the motor, TV Tokyo "WARUDOBIJINESUSATERAITO trend egg" in the introduction.' . It will bring you to the page where you can click on the MOVIE button. Part of it shows the magnet unit.
Hello All,
Well I thought I better step in here. The Axle Corporation Motor is so much different than mine. All you need to get a patent in the USA is a 35% difference in design. The patent office has already looked at the Axle Corporations motor, No problem.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Hi JackH,
Great to hear that it only takes a 35% difference to get a patent. Best of luck in getting yours.
The Axle corporation and Genesis has apparently expended a lot of resources and has had the backing of major Universities and various study groups. The analysis information provided should be useful in what you can expect from your motor since the magnet switching is similar to your current motor design. The performance out of their motorbike using nickel metal hydride batteries is twice as good as current electric motorbikes using LI-Ion and conventional motors as any I've seen on Evworld. If your motor is as good or better it would be of great importance for energy independence and the environment.
Regards,
LarryC
Later,,,,,,,JackH
Hi all, and a special greating to you Jack.
The new regular magnet motor controller is working out fine.
I haven't had as much spare time to test it as I wanted to, but this weekend and the latest couple of
evenings I have performed most tests neccesary.
I have found some bugs and improved some other parts and fine tuned the BEMF recycle circuitry.
The BEMF is running at 1150 volts to ensure the least possible back-pull on Jacks rotors.
The output motor voltage is adjustable between 62-169V. This should be more than enough to run Jacks motor.
The IGBT phase transistors does not get hot at all when running the controller at full power.
But the AC-DC transformer and some of the switched electronics will need fan cooling due to the cramped space.
I will mount a fan on the backside of the controller to ensure cool operating temperatures.
Hi all, the new controller v2.0 is tested and performs perfectly and is ready to ship tomorrow.
Here is some pictures on the controller exterior to watch.
@Honk
As usual, great job and looking good indeed. Hope this one does it.
And again, I'll take two to go. lol
I have a question and I hope it is not to personal a question or that it may not set you off or taken in a bad way.
I have noticed in your posts that you are very adamant about the fact that the use of BEMFcannot lead to overunity. But yet you know that Jacks' motor/generator has the ultimate goal to prove overunity is possible, or at least this is what I understand to be his ultimate goal.
What are you views on OU research and the endeavors of so many around here and the world, and how does this play with your efforts to help Jack and his device. Or is Jack's device designed to take advantage of a totally other form of energy that seems acceptable to you.
My question is because I am curious to learn the motivation of someone as totally qualified in the real implementations of control circuits and power supplies to take part in a project as "out of this world". I think we can learn from your comments.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Quote from: JackH on December 20, 2007, 08:44:13 PM
Well I am going to try to answer some of your questions. This motor generates electricity. If you notice the coil fires up to generate magnetics and also the perminent magnets makes double the power at the rotor. Now when the coil shuts OFF, the perminent magnets need to go back through the coil core to stop pulling on the rotor. Now when the flux from the perminet magnets goes back through the coil core they halft to cut the wires on the coil, therfore gewnerating electricity. Each of the coils generate BEMF and also generate about 150 vdc at around 400 ma.
So if you add them all three togather it comes up to 150 vdc at around 1.2 amps, more than the motor input. The motor input is only 150 vdc at around .600 amps under load.
Later,,,,,,JackH
But this math cannot be right. If I have understood your motor correctly it uses three phases, each phaze 60 degrees apart from the others.
In this case you cannot add together the back emf from all three phases simultaneously, because they don't happen at the same time.
The back emf output should instead be maximum 150vdc at 400ma. If the input is 150vdc 600ma this equals a back emf efficiency of 66%.
150vdc 600ma = 90 wattts of input power, 150vdc 400ma = 60 watts of back emf power. 60 / 90 = 66% emf efficiency.
This shouldn't have anything to do with the motors total performance. It will still have fantastic torque and I hope you the best of success.
Quote from: wattsup on December 20, 2007, 07:01:35 PM
I have a question and I hope it is not to personal a question or that it may not set you off or taken in a bad way.
What are you views on OU research and the endeavors of so many around here and the world, and how does this play with your efforts to help Jack and his device. Or is Jack's device designed to take advantage of a totally other form of energy that seems acceptable to you.
My question is because I am curious to learn the motivation of someone as totally qualified in the real implementations of control circuits and power supplies to take part in a project as "out of this world". I think we can learn from your comments.
I'm helping Jack because I'm really curious to see the motor run and I'd like to see a self-runner as well.
Jack has put so much effort into this machine and he deserves the best help possible.
Btw, the controller was shipped 10:30 this morning to Jack. Hopefully he's getting it within a week, being christmas and so.
Quote from: wattsup on December 20, 2007, 07:01:35 PM
I have noticed in your posts that you are very adamant about the fact that the use of BEMFcannot lead to overunity. But yet you know that Jacks' motor/generator has the ultimate goal to prove overunity is possible, or at least this is what I understand to be his ultimate goal.
If there is a path to OU there must be several ways to bridge it, but BEMF is not one of those roads.
You see, Back EMF is generated from a coil and the coil acts just opposite to a capacitor.
Most people understand capacitors and how energy is stored in them just like batteries but they don't realise that a coil is just the mirror image of a capacitor.
A coil is operating just like a capacitor but in the reverse opposite way.
You can store energy in a coil (like a capacitor) but instead of keeping hold to the storage the coil will release all of the energy in a burst of reversed voltage.
The energy level of the voltage is the same as the energy that was put into the coil minus the losses (copper losses, eddy currents, saturating losses).
As you can see there is no mysterous gain of the BEMF. It is a well understood and used feature in everyday life. All switched electronics make use of the BEMF to
enhance efficiency but there is always losses involved and there is no way possible to use BEMF as the primary power source of an overunity device.
To say that BEMF is overunity is like saying that a capacitor will increase the energy you put into it on its own, but it doesn't. The same goes for coils.
Dear Jack and Honk,
I don't know what it is Jack and Honk, when I look at the workmanship, from you two, I get a warm feeling, perhaps it is because of the way I was schooled. I served my time as an apprentice in the Coal Mines in England as an Electrical fitter, quality was always emphasized because of the danger of explosion, so you took your time and got it right. I don't know if I speak for anybody else who comments here but by God there is a Gentleman here in Holland who is wishing the pair of you well. I would like to say I wish the Pair of you a Merry Christmas and a Happy and hopefully a prosperous New Year. What attracted me here in the first place was the simplicity of Jacks idea. It is so simple you say to yourself why didn't I think of that. The important thing is not to get jealous.
I would like to say to you Jack, it is nice to know that Ohio university is taking you seriously, I hope that you have got them to sign a NDA (None disclosure Agreement) mind you I think you know what I mean. The nice thing about the affair is that they will be able to give you a lot of information concerning measurement error. Lots of so called over unity devices have failed because the person has measured the output incorrectly. It will certainly be nice to get a dynomometer test and I hope that you publish the results, well at least give us an indication. For me it doesn't really matter whether your motor test OU. If it is just twice as efficient as a normal electrical motor, it would mean that Electrical vehicles would be able to go twice as far and that would mean that with the modern lead acid batteries from firefly, electrical vehicles would be competitive with most ICE vehicles, and cheaper. For all of us, America has got to get itself off its addiction to oil. Where America leads the world follows. We are paying Billions to a set of arab goat herders who are using it to try and destroy the west. By the way Jack what ever happened to all those magnetic clamps you built and patented, was there no American firm that took that up? Beautifully made by the way.
Honk once again a beautiful piece of workmanship. I don't know what you will be doing in the new year. I don't know if you are planning to travel to Ohio, to see Jack and see how the motor is going, it is always easier when you don't have to rely of E-mails. If you do, don't forget to raise your hat to two other great Ohioan Inventors the Wright Brothers. By the way keep us informed, you always do, and keep safe.
Deep Regards
Yorkshire miner
Later,,,,,JackH
Dear Jack,
don't thank me, thank your self. America and Americans are getting a lot of shit, from over here in Europe at the moment. A few of us old bastards remember what you stood for and still stand for. We might worry about the oil or the motor lobby controlling congress and screwing thing up, but we know that America is basically sound. That America's heart is in the right place. I am an Englishman pure and simple. I live here in Holland in the heart of Europe. I don't give an inch on that. Ask me how the Americans treated the Brits in the last world war and I will tell you we got screwed, and I mean screwed. Ask me what I think of Americans as human beings and you will get a different answer. Just down the road from where I live, is a memorial not an official memorial, it was placed on a windmill in Germany. it was placed by a G.I. Joe to commemorate his comrades who lost there lives trying to clear a mine field. It doesn't, mean a dam that we the Brits had lost a couple of hundred clearing the village in front. To me it is difficult to explain how I feel, my family paid a bloody high price in that last war and to know that decent hard working yanks were fighting side by side and paying the same price says a lot to me. There are a lot of decent people here in Europe cheering you on. Jack just take a bow and get on with what you have to do and let us know when you screw up.
Deep regards
Yorkshire Miner
P.S. Merry Christmas and a happy new year.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Merry Xmas Jack. I hope you receive the controller sooner than expected.
I do understand how your fine motor is working. It's not like an ordinary coil at all.
In my earlier statement about BEMF I was refering to a stand alone coil without the return flux from a Ndfeb magnet.
In your case you have much higher BEMF return force.
Hello All.
Merry Christmas and a happy new year to all on this board !!!!
Thanks,,,,,,JackH
@Jack
Been out for two days for Christmas and just saw your graphic.
Pretty crazy but about two weeks ago I had purchased two small AC motors (3$ each. lol) as shown in the photo and that remind me of your graphic design (less the magnet)
The right one is the motor unmodified and on the left one, I took off the rotor and wound a bifilar coil. I only wanted to learn how well I could transfer power from the main coil, through the armature and then to the coils and it does very well. I will try it again with a more expanded coil over more or the empty rotor radius. These tests are for work on the TPU's and bailing wire.
When doing tests, I often look for ready made (and cheap) components that are widely used in the market as these are proven functional designs. By doing simple modifications, it's fun to see what the effects are when the base function is known to already work.
I am curious if you or anyone would know why such motors have two heavy copper triple winds at 180 degrees on the armature and next to the rotor. Are they used to overcome the sticky spot. There may be a technique or reason there that could be useful in other designs.
A question on your design.
I imagine your rotor is polarized but what happens when the polarized rotor sections reach the N/S magnet, or is the distance between the magnet and the rotor far enough that it does not directly affect it?
Hello wattsup,
Well the rotor is made out of sylicon steel laminets, so as soon as the magnets are turned off, the rotor looses it's magnetic poles. I am working on a new design that also has one valve in the rotor, this model will have push, pull on the rotor and will need to only turn on/off one time per rev.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Hello Jack, can ask you sir what is the overall wire gauge you use for your motors? And how may wraps, voltage, amps, ohm and such.
It would help me form a more complete overall idea about the system.
Many thanks,
Steven
Hello Nali2001,
I'll get this imformation tonight at the shop, right now I cannot remember all of it.
I'll post it tonight.
Hello Honk,
I got your controller yesterday, I will give it a try today. Thanks for the fast shipment.
Later,,,,,JackH
Thanks Jack,
I'm looking forward to it.
Kind regards,
Steven
Later,,,,,,,JackH
Later,,,,,,JackH
Hi Jack. Im sorry to hear about another failure. This feels just to crazy. But I wont give up. Please don't give up yourself.
Send back the controller and I'll have a look on whats broken and then I'll strengthen it as much as I can to cope with the high
forces of your motor. From the sound of it I get the feeling it's the Back EMF return circuitry that burnt from to much voltage.
Mostly I'm sad that you really needed this controller when the university guys arrive with the dynamometer.
As you have said before, it a hard task to develop a controller to fit a whole new type of motor without being able to test it.
Hopefully I can learn a lot on this failure and then the improved controller will finally work fine.
But I have some questions:
1) How well did the motor run on this minute of operating time?
2) And at what voltage did you run it?
3) Did you hook up 115VAC input voltage or did you use your adjustable powersupplies?
Later,,,,,,,JackH
Quote from: JackH on December 28, 2007, 06:23:10 PM
Hello Honk,
Well the motor was up to about 1500 rpm's when the controller burnt up.
Now do to the wait of the rotors it takes about a ninute and a half to build up to 2000 rpm.
Yes I run it first of the 110 vac line. Then I was going to change it over to the power supplies.
I will not give up on you !!!. I'll send the controller back to you tomorrow.
Later,,,,,,,JackH
Thank you for that fast feedback and still having faith in me.
1) But I would also like to know at what output voltage you run the motor?
2) Did it take equally long to build up speed at using the controller as it does using the points only?
This last question is important as it tells me some of the current requirements I have to handle.
Regards / Honk
QuoteInsert Quote
Hello Nali2001,
Well I think I have the mesurements you want.
I am using #15 Wire single coted.
The resistence I mesured with a FLUKE T5-600 tester it was 6 oems.
The coil core is 2.600" X 2.250" X 6.00 inches long, silicon steel.
The perminent magnets are N48 they mesure 2" X 2" x 6".
There are 890 turns of wire on each coil.
I am running the motor with 150 VDC at .600 amps.
The motor runs at around 2000 rpm.
Have you got any way to predict the amount of voltage these coils could produce using N48 magnets, at 2000 rpm each coil turns ON/OFF twice per rev.
I put a second set of points on one coil so the voltage would not short out, I then hooked it to a bridge rectifier and hooked it to a cap. I read with the FLUKE meter around 350 VDC. I diden't have a way to check current but it lite a 75 watt light bulb up as bright as when you pluge it into the wall.
Thanks for any help you can give.
Later,,,,,,,JackH
In my opinion, the voltage coming from the coils could easily be thousands of volts, depending upon exactly how the switching is done. The voltage generated by a coil is a function of how fast the coil is discharged. If the coil is disconnected very abruptly, as with points, only the resistance of the wire limits the discharge rate. It is not uncommon for coils to produce tens of thousands of volts when rapidly discharged. (hence the arcing at the points)
Later,,,,,,JackH
Quote from: JackH on December 20, 2007, 08:44:13 PM
Oh by the way, Ohio State University is coming down to look at the motor tomorrow at 2:00.
Hello JackH,
If you could please, tell us how was your meeting with OSU ?
- Schpankme
Quote from: JackH on December 28, 2007, 07:30:49 PM
I didn't have a chance to adjust the voltage yet, it was set at what you set it at.
It was set to the lowest possible output at 62V
Quote from: JackH on December 28, 2007, 07:30:49 PM
Well it seemed to be building up speed as fast as the points do, it was really looking good.
That is good news. Then I don't have to worry about the Amps output level.
Quote from: JackH on December 28, 2007, 07:30:49 PM
Honk I just do not think that this voltage is BEMF, I really think that this thing is generating a large amount of voltage and current when
the coils collapses and the N48 magnets flux lines need to cut the copper wires on the coil to get back in the coil core.
Remember there is 890 turns of #15 wire the flux lines need to cut before they can get back to the coil core.
When speaking about BEMF from your motor I meant of course the extra added BEMF force from the N48 magnets.
Don't worry. I know how your motor is working. :D When I get the controller back I will investigate the cause of the breakdown.
Thanks,,,,,JackH
@Jack and @Honk
Sorry to learn of your set-back.
While you wait for the next controller, consider doing your tests with standard rheostat-AC-rectified. Just to see if the motor is putting out good torque versus watts. This would also at least give you some answers on start up current draw. You never know. Just in torque alone it could show OU.
Is it possible to put a few large high voltage caps in there with diodes to see if you can capture any high voltage spikes. This would also be usefull for Honk. If after you run the motor you check voltage on the caps and you see 1200 volts or more, there is really something happening in the motor.
I also think that it would have been a good idea to put two or three taps on the main coil, let's say every 200 winds. This would enable you to test driving the motor at different wind lengths since if there is too much coil versus required energy to saturate the core and turn the rotor, you may get much higher flyback then anticipated.
All the best to both of you in 2008.
Thanks,,,,,,,JackH
@ Honk:
Hey, was just reading the specs on the motor and what I can tell this coil is capable of drawing 25 amps. Not saying it does but thats how ohms law relates to the equation. E=IR would work out to e=150 and R=6 and E/R makes I=25 and thats if it was constantly on. Since its pulsed it will draw quite a bit less but .....
Am I on the wrong track here?
thaelin
It doesn't matter in this case because the controller is current limited to 2.5 amps.
And you cannot apply resistive calculations onto the motor coils unless the the motor is totaly stalled by overload.
In this case 2.5 amps could flow through one of the coils due to the output current limitation.
There's three phases in this motor but only one phase at the time will conduct. It's not possible for all coils to conduct simultaneously.
Honk and Jack,
This is just something to think about and some info that might help you guys out.
With a limit of 2.5A from your controller, Jack might be able to rewind his motor coil using #22 wire instead of #15. If the coil used the same amount of length of wire, the wire would have a resistance of about 30.56 ohms. (Using a straight 150vdc on this resistance could draw up to 4.91A at startup or stall). Jack would no doubt have to re-figure what size coil in #22 wire @ 2.5A limit, would make a strong enough magnetic field to work in his motor. This might better match your controller and help his motor to use less power input as well. (Unless you want the larger wire size for generating power within the motor).
Info: Bare #15 wire is good for up to 15.5A
Bare #22 wire is good for up to 3.04A
Resistance per foot: #15=.003181 ohms per foot
#22=.016202 ohms per foot
Coil wire length estimate is: 1886.19 feet @ 6 ohms for #15 wire
Best wishes to both of you Honk and Jack.
Thank you for your suggestion.
But you have missed the point of this motor. If he was to use more turns then the inductance would get extremely high and this
would cause him to run the motor at really high voltages, like 500-800 volts, just to push the current through the coils fast enough.
Jack doesn't need to put any more power into the coils than about 2 amps to match the flux from the N48 neos at the chosen
number of turns. Anymore than that could damage the magnets.
At static mode the valves just need 6 volts to reach 2 amps, but when he is running his motor he need to increase the voltage
just to push the current through the coils in the same speed as the motor is running.
You see, a coil takes time to build up its magnetic field. And the higher the inductance, the longer the time.
This is why increasing turns will increase the voltage as well.
Later, in production, the coil windings can be adapted to fit the running voltage desired. This could vary from one situation to another.
Hello Honk,
Thanks for explaining that for me. I was just about witts end to explain it, you did it real good.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Quote from: JackH on December 29, 2007, 09:54:18 PM
But I have also put it on a prony brake and it tested at around 3/4 HP at 1300 rpm. Running on 150 vdc at .60 amps.
That is a nice COP of 6.21.
559 watts out / 90 watts in = 6.21 COP
You should have no problems of getting a self-runner out of this motor once the controller is working alright.
Good new year 2008.
The year of worldwide free energy breakthroughs........
Quote from: Honk on December 31, 2007, 09:28:15 AM
Quote from: JackH on December 29, 2007, 09:54:18 PM
But I have also put it on a prony brake and it tested at around 3/4 HP at 1300 rpm. Running on 150 vdc at .60 amps.
That is a nice COP of 6.21.
559 watts out / 90 watts in = 6.21 COP
You should have no problems of getting a self-runner out of this motor once the controller is working alright.
Good new year 2008.
The year of worldwide free energy breakthroughs........
This is a great Statement!
Thanks to you ,good guys and energy heros
Best wishes
helmut
Actually, that's some of what I wanted to know also. There are things you can do on your own to test this motor besides running it with the controller to see how it runs and what it can and cannot do. You just answered one of them and GREAT! Now have a Super Great Happy New Year 2008 with all the trimmings. Actually, Australia is already feasting. That's why there is never enough beer in the world to go around. lol
Sadly to thoes that haven't heard, Howard Johnson has passed. He will be missed.
thaelin
Hello All.
Well about 25 to 30 years ago Howard Johnson was the one that inspired me to get into this magnetic motor rat race. I thank him for that.
I am truly sorry that he passed away.
Later,,,,,,,JackH
Quote from: wattsup on December 25, 2007, 07:41:45 PM
I am curious if you or anyone would know why such motors have two heavy copper triple winds at 180 degrees on the armature and next to the rotor. Are they used to overcome the sticky spot. There may be a technique or reason there that could be useful in other designs.
Your picture referred to is here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2386.0;attach=15666
Hi,
I have also come accross such one turn 'windings' in the (laminated) cores of electric motors and these are called shaded pole motors and the 1 turn coils are the shading coils. You may have noticed these 1 turn coils are short-circuited.
Here is explanation how these work: http://www.answers.com/topic/shaded-pole-motor?cat=technology and http://www.tpub.com/neets/book5/18e.htm
and in a very detail way see here: http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~moloney/AppComp/2001Entries/e03d/shadedpole.htm
I understand the short-circuited 1 turn coils consume energy coming from the main stator excitation by way of induction so you pay for the effect from your input power (from this respect it works just like a transformer with a normal AC primary and a 1 turn (and short-circuited) secondary windings).
rgds, Gyula
The returned controller arrived today.
Before I opened it I could hear something loose rattle inside the controller.
When I opened it I could see that the Toroid in BEMF return circuit had fallen off due to rough shipping!
There was a clear smell of smoke, but not like burned electronics, more like cigarettes in an old ash tray.
I could not locate any burn marks at my first investigation. Very strange. But the fuse was blown.
I will continue the visual examination tonight, and tomorrow I'll locate the fault and repair it.
I just wonder if the toroid already had fallen off when it arrived to Jack?
If so it clearly explains the failure of the controller.
Buy if it was OK at Jacks place, then it must have fallen of on its way back to me.
And this means I have to investigate the cause of the failure even more thoroughly.
Quote from: Honk on January 08, 2008, 08:29:10 AM
The returned controller arrived today.
Before I opened it I could hear something loose rattle inside the controller.
When I opened it I could see that the Toroid in BEMF return circuit had fallen off due to rough shipping!
There was a clear smell of smoke, but not like burned electronics, more like cigarettes in an old ash tray.
I could not locate any burn marks at my first investigation. Very strange. But the fuse was blown.
I will continue the visual examination tonight, and tomorrow I'll locate the fault and repair it.
I just wonder if the toroid already had fallen off when it arrived to Jack?
If so it clearly explains the failure of the controller.
Buy if it was OK at Jacks place, then it must have fallen of on its way back to me.
And this means I have to investigate the cause of the failure even more thoroughly.
I know I am going to get flamed for this, but have you considered that Jack is just playing you, just trying to establish for his investors that his machine puts out so much power that it burns up whatever you try to hook into it? You are spending alot of effort on this, while Jack sells shares of his closed-source "invention" to investors. There is a very real possibility that this is all a sham. And it definitely goes very much against the spirit of this open source forum.
Shruggedatl
Sorry consider yourself Flamed
Jack has been VERY open about this project and needs the money but is NOT fishing for it IMHO
I have had many conversations and contacts with Jack and helped on some material, I read people very well and his is one of our best chances at OU. IMHO
Jack Thanks for all of your work and disclosure
PS Honk your Great thanks for the help
Jon
Quote from: boxofsparks on January 09, 2008, 12:09:10 AM
Shruggedatl
Sorry consider yourself Flamed
Jack has been VERY open about this project and needs the money but is NOT fishing for it IMHO
I have had many conversations and contacts with Jack and helped on some material, I read people very well and his is one of our best chances at OU. IMHO
Jack Thanks for all of your work and disclosure
PS Honk your Great thanks for the help
Jon
I may be wrong and this may all be well-intentioned, and certainly Jack is under no obligation to disclose more than he has. COP of over 6 just sounds too good to be true. Everyone else would kill for 1.00000001.
Well, soon we might know for sure if the reported COP of 6.21 is true or not.
I have finished examining the broken controller and I have found the most plausible cause of the failure.
The BEMF recycling unit Toroid must have fallen off in some extent on its way to Jack. Perhaps just one of the wires.
I could see that all semiconductors in the BEMF recycling unit was OK but they would be broken if the error started here.
But one of the 1200V IGBT output phase transistors was broken and this caused a short circuit that fried the AC-DC converter.
I believe that the BEMF recycling unit could not return any BEMF and this caused the Valve return voltage to shoot higher than 1200V.
When this happenend one of the IGBT:s finally broke down and smoked the converter.
I tested the current limit of the converter before I shipped it to Jack but there was no time to perform the more time consuming short circuit tests.
This is a high voltage output AC-DC converter and performing the short circuit tests require lot's of patience to repair it at breakdowns.
I'm not sure if I have the time right now to tune in this feature. Perhaps it's better just to repair it and make sure it's working fine and
then ship it back to Jack. I believe he's eager to test it again as he noticed the motor/controller working really great before breakdown.
But I will enhance the BEMF recycling capacity as well, just to be on the safe side.
And this time I'll use a ton of glue to prevent another shipping failure.
An update:
A have fixed the broken controller and it's back into full operating mode.
Two 1200V IGBT, one 550V 20Amp mosfet, and two 150V 55Amp mosfets were smoked.
I glued the coils last time before shipping it to Jack but this time I have really used a lot of glue
on all coils and other big components to prevent this from happening once again.
I lowered the BEMF level from 1150V to 900V in order to use a better and lower Rdson 1000V mosfet.
This new mosfet can handle a lot higher BEMF recycling power without overheating.
And the lower BEMF level at 900V gives a little more headroom on the 1200V IGBT:s.
Later this year St Micro will launch a 1200V low Rdson mosfet. That will fit perfectly in this controller.
Tests will continue during this weekend. If everything seems OK I'll return it to Jack on monday.
.
@Honk
If I had a spaceship, you're one guy I'd have aboard. Nickmane "Scotty".
@Jack
Instructions before use;
1) Shake well.
2) If you hear a ding-a-ling, do not connect.
otherwise
3) Let's COP.
4) If there is COP, use the code words and announce to all "There is no COP".
otherwise
5) If there is really no COP, just blame it on Honk. lol
Will our two hero COPs win over the dreaded Short Circuitus of the BEMF Galactica?
Will they manage to save the world before the Late Night Show ends?
All these questions and more, sooooo..........
Stay tuned as this saga continues.......
Quote from: wattsup on January 11, 2008, 02:41:08 PM
@Honk
If I had a spaceship, you're one guy I'd have aboard. Nickmane "Scotty".
You are so right on that one ... ;D
Quote from: wattsup on January 11, 2008, 02:41:08 PM
@Honk
If I had a spaceship, you're one guy I'd have aboard. Nickname "Scotty".
I'd be glad to sign on. New nickname "Honky"...lol
Later,,,,,JackH
Too bad we all dont have a file that we can add names to so that they are no longer seen. In usenet we call this a plonk file. The best thing to do is totally ignore them and they will soon disappear. Most are just looking for some attention. As said, bad attention is better than no attention at all to some. Pulling on the flame suit. ;D
thaelin
I have been following this thing for several years now. I have talked to Jack on the phone a number of times, and met him personally last year when he brought a section of his motor to my shop to take resistance and inductance measurements on it.
I believe completely that his motives are "pure". I have offered several times to help with things that I could do, and for the most part Jack has not took me up on my offers. When I did one small favor of measuring his coils he offered to pay me for doing it. I have never offered financial help to Jack, and he has never asked for it. I have offered to help with machining, testing, materials, a timing circuit to replace his points, and other non-monitary things that have value, and he has never pressed me for help, or even taken me up on my offers, other than the measurements.
I believe Jack just wants to see his motor proven out, and nothing else.
DB
Hi all:
I just have to say what I feel here. The hit on Jacks credibility was small change and it should be ignored.
Jack is a proud man and wants to do it on his own. Where he needs help, you will notice he did ask. Where he does not need help, he does it himself. His motors are a work of art as they would need to be if they are to be promoted. No one promotes a bad piece of merchandise of any kind. The design feels solid and I feel so is jacks word.
So, Jack, spread your wings and fly. Dont let the naysay bother you.
Just had to say it like I see it. My opinion only.
thaelin
Later,,,,,JackH
Hi Jack:
As far as why I haven't replicated this, you have never gave me permission to do so. I call it respect. Granted, I dont have the foggiest idea how you use the valve on the rotors and not going to ask.
thaelin
I keep it as Thaelin
But i am still interestet to know,how it works
helmut
Dear Jack and Honk,
it is not just these three, there are lots more here who don't post, or like me, post only when I think I have something to offer, that are cheering you two on. I for one have never doubted your integrity. Perhaps it is because I see such high standards of workmanship from the pair of you that that I automatically assume that you have high moral and ethical standards. I might be wrong but I very much doubt it. If anybody else wants to cast aspersions, then I recommend them to read the Biography of two other great Ohioan inventors whose workmanship is also beyond reproach. They by the way are called the Wright brothers, as decent a pair of Americans as anyone could wish to meet. If you read the book you will understand why. This year if anyone is interested is the centenary of there invention going mainstream. In 1908 the two brothers demonstrated there invention to the public both in Washington and Le Mans France. For 5 years since 1903 they had been ridiculed as fools and idiots. Just keep at it you pair, you might not hear it but there is a lot of cheering going on.
Deep Regards
Yorkshire Miner
Thank you for your encouragement.
I do hope the controller can handle Jacks motor this time.
If his new generator is ready then we will soon have a self runner according
to the numbers publicized. Thumbs Up.
Right now I'm running the controller at 140V output voltage and 120W is going into the valves at simulated 3000RPM.
It's working just fine, so far. I'll attach some pictures and a small avi on the controller running the test valves.
Pic1: Showing the controller setup.
Pic2: Showing the Controller Outputs captured on a oscilloscope. Peak BEMF at 900V.
Pic3: Showing the BEMF recyling. Bursts of 900V BEMF is converted down to the rectified AC input voltage,
WMV: You can watch the controller operating the test valves. The sound is coming from the valves, not the controller.
Please download the movie "Controller_Running.wmv" at the end of this message.
An update before posting this reply:
The controller have been running the valves for 5 hours now.
No sign of failure yet. I guess I can send it back to Jack tomorrow.
Let us all hope for total success this time around.
Great work!
Be sure to pack the controller very safely before sending it back to Jack!
Who knows for sure what they do with the package while shipping...
I wish the bests for both of you this time!
Quote from: JackH on January 12, 2008, 11:21:10 AMI wonder sometimes, I have posted pictures and graphics of the motor, I have discussed the coils and magnets, I have discussed the rotor and how it is made. I think that everyone here knows how to build this motor, I just wonder what I left out.
Hi JackH,
I noticed a couple years back you had a twin motor design (see pic) and now you've went with a single. How do you compare the performance of the twin to the current motor?
- Schpankme
Later,,,,,,JackH
Quote from: JackH on January 18, 2008, 03:56:02 PMThe single valve seems to work the best. Also the twin valve used more electricity to get the same results.
Hello JackH,
Scaling this motor's geometry, with the Magnets and Coil combo, makes for a very large foot print. I'm understanding how you arrived at your current design.
Best regards,
- Schpankme
Later,,,,,,JackH
Good news. I was afraid it was being lost by the postal service this time around.
If we continue to ship it back and forth we must loose it sooner or later by sheer statistics .... ;D
Quote from: JackH on January 23, 2008, 07:07:28 PM... Well running it of off motorcycle points ...
Hello JackH,
When using the motorcycle points, how many Pulses per second can be generated ?
- Schpankme
I'm sorry to report another failure.
The controller broke down at 800 RPM, just as the last time.
Jack checked the controller and there was nothing loose inside.
But while it worked the motor picked up speed really fine.
So the controller is operating the motor correctly.
Now I have to find the weak spot that is the cause of these failures.
I'll get it back for investigation and improvements one week from now.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Darn.. I for one was hoping that this would work. How far apart do you guys live. It seems like it is time for a road trip for Jack to visit Honk and bring the motor along. This postal service development route seems to be taking forever.
Well, Jack lives in the States and I live in Europe.
So we will just have to continue to rely on the postal service. ;D
When the controller is returned I'll fix it and try to find the cause of the error.
I will also lower the starting voltage from 63V down to 45V to make the initial run smoother.
If the BEMF circuit broke down I'll lower the BEMF level down to 750V to make headroom
for a heavy duty 900V Mosfet capable of returning three times as much BEMF power.
If the output IGBT:s is broken I'll swap then for another type that might work better.
If the AC-DC converter is smoked I'll use even more powerful Mosfets to enhance the capacity.
If everything is smoked I'll scratch my head and say "what the f-ck" and swap all for the better.
I guess we'll will have to wait and see how it develops another time around.
On the next run it would be good if maybe Dingbat could be present and take measurements
on the outputs using a oscilloscope with a high voltage prope. Then I could get to know if the
BEMF exceeds 1200V. The BEMF circuit should keep it lower than that but if the recycling
capacity is to low, the BEMF voltage could shoot higher than 1200V and kill the IGBT:s.
keep up the good work guys. :)
In stead of high rpm you could also try bursts of pulses.
It will do less work but generate loads of back emf.
@Honk
Again sorry to hear of this burn up.
You know that Otto has been burning alot of mosfets. I know I am null in EE matters but can you tell me if the ground of the mosfets is in the path of the flyback from the motor. If applied power gets stuck in the motor and the rotor does not turn to start fast enough, watch out. I think also that Jack should consider using some off the shell controller just to get better measurements for you to work with. Either that or your idea of having someone there with Jack when he does the test would be a great. This could go on for months, back and forth, before the proper parameters are achieved. Maybe Jack can send you the motor so you could work on the circuit with the real mackoy.
One last point is that since you are developing and making the circuit, there could be some simple little things that have been overlooked in the circuit, but you cannot see it being so into it. I am not knocking you abilities at all. I get called sometimes by other dealers to fix water treatment machines for problems that the main service guy just can't see cause he is so "immersed" in the system. Sometimes it takes someone from the outside. Do you have anyone like this to speak to in confidence?
Quote from: JackH on January 25, 2008, 10:22:20 AM... Motorcycle can run up to about 10,000 rpm's with 'points' ...
Hello JackH,
Sorry for the confusion; my thoughts were that you used the Motorcycle points as a ' timing device / spark gap' to pulse DC to the Coils.
- Schpankme
Later,,,,,,JackH
.
Hello JackH,
Honk if you like electric cars !
- Schpankme
I have received the controller from Jack and I have some better news this time.
The output 1200V IGBT:s were OK.
The BEMF recycle unit was OK.
But the AC-DC converter was fried, both the step down mosfet and the push-pull mosfets.
These components are not directly coupled to the valves and wont break down due to any "out of range" BEMF spike.
I believe the controller broke down this time for some other reason.
Perhaps I just need to strengthen the top level capacity of the AC-DC converter.
I'll continue fixing it and then test it really hard. Even harder than I usually do. Like a 350W load test.
Good news, Honk. Do not give up. Keep trying. Victory is made of obstinacy.
Per aspera ad astrum !
Ney
Iv'e gotten some new information on the behaviour of the motor.
It seem like there is two types of return voltages.
The ordinary inductive kickback when the valves is turned off.
But there is also a forward voltage that I believe is induced by the rotating rotor core.
It will make the applied 150VDC rise to 475V and this might be the cause of the breakdown.
I will add another diode to prevent this voltage form entering the output voltage line on the controller.
Perhaps this diode will help the controller handle Jacks motor.
@Honk
If those coils in Jacks device are receiving a pulsed DC voltage, is it possible that when the pulse is off, and the rotor is still turning, that the coil becomes a generator, creating a drive/gen - drive /gen condition. Also if the coils have so much winding, they would become highly inductive enough to supply a discharge at pulse off, much greater then any calculated flyback.
Keep up the good work.
Hi Honk
This might help.. I see this in VFD's "Variable Frequency Drives" in a overhauling load condition...ie it wants to gain rotational speed driving up the DC bus voltage because it has become a generator... or alternator. I will find the circuit and email it to you that uses a switching transistor and a LOAD to "absorb" the rise. Let me know but I think the acceleration runaway of the rotor is the key and can be exactly what can be utilized.
I'll be in touch
Jon
@Honk
I be following your post, keep the good work, the Jack motor is a great monster for your controller, the problem that I see is that you want to make and efficient and overunity controller, first try to make a working controller with all the protecction that you can imagine, when the controller work try to make the controller so efficient as you can do it.
To domesticate this monster first we have to know the working dynamics (voltage, amp)
God bless you with more wisdom.
@all
The Jack motor and the Honk spiral motor are the best projects to have success in overunity in all the internet, also with the right aim, to generate from 3KVA to 10KVA, I believe that this good guys will have success and we most to prepare to give finantial aid from all the world.
I had the opportunity to visit Jack and take some voltage measurements on his motor a couple of weeks ago.
The motor is as beautiful as the pictures. Even more beautiful when it is running. It runs as smooth as a sewing machine. I saw the motor run up to over 2000 rpm. It was running on the points, and a 150vdc power supply. The motor was drawing about 0.6a according to the meter on the supply. The motor current would actually drop to that level when some load was applied. The current was a little higher when the motor was idling.
The purpose of my visit was to measure the voltage on the coils while the motor was running. I took some measurements and reported them to Honk so he could help identify what is causing the failures in his controller.
The voltage on the coil had some interesting characteristics. It is a strange beast, ready to be unleashed when the latest controller is ready.
It was very exciting to see the motor running, and I hope that the next controller modifications will work and get this thing going so that power testing can be done.
Great job on the motor, Jack. I hope I can come down when the controller is running the motor and the power tests are being done. I was very encouraged by what you showed me. I think Honk will get it this time, and we might just see the real deal when the motor is power tested.
db
@dingbat
Good work man.
Did you happen to have a high voltage capacitor with diodes on the power line to catch (and later measure) any fast high voltage flyback that you would not see on a regular meter? Especially with those points that could be acting as spark gaps. Geez, come to think of it, if Honk's circuit will be replacing the points, there is one major variable in there that is still uncertain and still risks causing a problem. Anyways, guys, I am sure you have everything under control and look forward to trial 3, or is it 4, or maybe it's 5, or is it.........lol
I realize that the results of some of what you tested must be proprietary and held tight so I was just wondering. But with 150 volts dc, even at .6 amps, you can get some really serious business going on with those points, coil flyback, etc.
Hey, maybe we should start a "Fly Honk to Jacks Fund" so he could have first hand access to the beast.
@wattsup,
Count me on this Fly Honk to Jack Fund. A hundred bucks waiting your order.
Ney
@wattsup,
Me anothers 100 dollars to "Fly Honk to Jack Fund"
Thanks,,,,, JackH
Later,,,,,,JackH
Dear Jack and Dingbat,
is that negative spike really the back EMF, and if so how long do your points last?
Deep Regards
Yorkshire Miner
Dear Jack and Dingbat,
is that negative spike really the back EMF, and if so how long do your points last?
Deep Regards
Yorkshire Miner
Later,,,,,,JackH
Hi All.
I have some sad news to tell you. :(
I must postpone the Hilden-brand Controller. I'm running out of time myself.
I have been trying to fix it but there is still something wrong I can't seem to localize.
The only way to be sure of Hilden-brand getting a better controller is to build him another one.
I'm sure I can get it to work fine now with the new knowledge I have gotten from Dingbat.
But I don't have the time right now. There is to many things happening in my life, among moving to
my new house and start fixing what needs to be fixed, and then there is my own projects that needs
my attention. I know Jack have talked to the university and they will help him build a controller.
That's fine with me and it will give me some rest in this matter.
Later if still needed, I can make him another controller that he can play around with on his even bigger motor.
Se ya later all / Honk
Honk,
I am very sorry. I wish you all the best and I will follow your other project.
Take care.
Ney
I have emailed Jack twice about the postponed Hilden-brand Controller but I get no response?
Hopefully nothing is wrong with him. Perhaps he's not well enough to reply. I'm getting worried.
@Honk
If you have his phone number and if you want, you can PM me and I will call him from this side of the pond. Or ask @dingbat. But I'm sure he fine. Probably taking a break in the sun somewhere.
There is nothing wrong with you deciding to put this project on hold. Actually this is the reality of life that comes back in to say "hey, there are other things to take care of". Something many forget. Hope you're back in action soon.
As for Jacks taking this to a university to develop, I wonder if this is a good idea because if there are any confidentiality problems, it may be hard to control. Probably the best bet is for him to contact a few specialized companies in motor control circuits. There are many in the USA, good ones with lot of bucks.
Hello all!
Jack is gone again, all his latest posts have been removed. Does any one know waths goin on?
Dear Jack
I presume the patent lawyer has been telling you not to let too much out of the bag and you pulled all your posts. I was wondering how thing were going with the patent office still jerking your chain? Don't forget that there is a lot of people still rutting for you out here in cyber space.
deep regards
Yorkshire Miner
Quote from: yorkshireminer on March 28, 2008, 05:44:54 AM
Dear Jack
I presume the patent lawyer has been telling you not to let too much out of the bag and you pulled all your posts. I was wondering how thing were going with the patent office still jerking your chain? Don't forget that there is a lot of people still rutting for you out here in cyber space.
deep regards
Yorkshire Miner
Yet another promising technology seemingly gone.. Just when you think "all hope is not lost" here comes the patent lawyer. By the time a patent lawyer is done with "rewriting" the patent a replication will be near impossible so therefore the technology is history. Any record here is toast as well.. This seems like about the sixth time this has happened on just this forum.. Good progress then the creator of the technology, either 1. gets pissed and removes all posts or 2. patent lawyer informs him to remove the information. Years later there is no hint of the technology on the market and the patent is still 'in process' or never complete because the inventor either 1. ran out of money, 2. got bought off, or 3. just up and died taking the technology with him/her. Almost seems like a pattern. No wonder the 'conspiracies theories' are rampant.. Lets all hope Jack did not meet number 3 of the above..
Hello All,
Well I think that OSU is going to take over the motor, build the controller and try to make it smaller. I think they can make it smaller just by using orented strand silicon steel in the laminets. Cut maybe 40% of its size down.
I just found out by another Doctor the other day that I have ALS. I think it is the slow kind, maybe 3 to 4 years left in my life, I have already started getting a little week in my hands, a little trouble breathing. My motor will never die, I will make a contract with OSU(if they take it) to stay on it untill it is finished.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Quote from: JackH on March 28, 2008, 07:18:30 PM
Hello All,
Well I think that OSU is going to take over the motor, build the controller and try to make it smaller. I think they can make it smaller just by using orented strand silicon steel in the laminets. Cut maybe 40% of its size down.
I just found out by another Doctor the other day that I have ALS. I think it is the slow kind, maybe 3 to 4 years left in my life, I have already started getting a little week in my hands, a little trouble breathing. My motor will never die, I will make a contract with OSU(if they take it) to stay on it untill it is finished.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Geezz Jack.. I was not being that serious about that item number 3.. Damn.. Really sorry to hear about you having ALS... Not a good way to go.. Not sure if there is such a thing as a good way to go..
Sounds good about OSU.. Hope it works out.
Best wishes...
TomG
Hello Jack,
Oh man... very sorry to hear about your health. I (and I think we) wish you all the best and thanks for all the effort you have put into your work and a better future for us all. You have inspired at least me with your great work, and you keep doing so in the future. Hope it works out with OSU. Keep us updated!
Kind regards,
Steven
@Jack,
Sorry to hear about your ALS. Hope what I am about to say helps. I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia a while back. Although this is not life threatening such as yours, it is very disabilitating and the symptoms are horrible. Going to doctors, they could only perscribe antidepressants and physical therapy, which did not work. Out of desperation, I opted to try a dental revision. Although this seemed crazy to me and the doctors and dentists said it was nonesense, I knew others that tried it with great success. Removing all the metal fillings, I had 6 and a post from a root canal, I now have no symptoms and I am fully fucntional at work again. I have read of success stories from others that had ALS by removing the toxic silver fillings, which by the way contain mercury. I think that the results depend on the length of time the symptoms occured. I hope this helps and if you would like details, please let me know. This may sound like voodoo to some, but I personnaly know others that it has helped tremedously.
Brad
Quote from: icanbeatbob on March 30, 2008, 04:54:29 PM
@Jack,
Sorry to hear about your ALS. Hope what I am about to say helps. I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia a while back. Although this is not life threatening such as yours, it is very disabilitating and the symptoms are horrible. Going to doctors, they could only perscribe antidepressants and physical therapy, which did not work. Out of desperation, I opted to try a dental revision. Although this seemed crazy to me and the doctors and dentists said it was nonesense, I knew others that tried it with great success. Removing all the metal fillings, I had 6 and a post from a root canal, I now have no symptoms and I am fully fucntional at work again. I have read of success stories from others that had ALS by removing the toxic silver fillings, which by the way contain mercury. I think that the results depend on the length of time the symptoms occured. I hope this helps and if you would like details, please let me know. This may sound like voodoo to some, but I personnaly know others that it has helped tremedously.
Brad
Hi Jack
Dont give up.
icanbeatbob is on the right way
Some time ago i had some report from toxicologie to read.It was in german.
You can do at least a google on it and find out about the latest news regarding to dental items
and toxic reactions.
Good luck
helmut
@helmut
Thanks, most don't see it that way.
@jack
Here is a web site. I am pretty sure Dr. Nunnally had ALS. He now runs marathons. He is the leading dentist and has great team. You can speak with him directly and get more information than I have given. If you are interested, I can supply phone numbers of people who have this done, then you may have more information to decide for yourself. Note: Not all dentist perform the same protocol, and from my understanding this is important.
http://www.healthysmilesforlife.com/
BTW, I am from california and went to Texas to have this done. They put me under for a few hours and when I woke, everything was done and felt no pain. Never took one pain pill. Could have gone back to work the next day.
Brad
The wikipedia has a pretty balanced article about the amalgam filling issue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_amalgam_controversy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_amalgam_controversy)
Hello shruggedatlas,
Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it. Alot of good reading.
Thanks,,,,,JackH
@All
Spoke with Jack today. He is looking into alternatives since the mainstream medical doctors don't know what to do. Jack is a very nice man, very polite and apprecitative. I would just like to say that I give him my sincere wishes that he may recover.
Brad
@Jack
I read the bad news. Son of a gun. I am soooooo sorry to hear this and I'm just flabbergasted. Are you really sure? I mean mistakes are always made with these diagnosis.
My brother is a Homeopath and in the family we know much about alternative healing, etc. I have had all my metal fillings (15 or so) removed for the polymer type. Imagine when this is removed the dentist and assistant wear special masks, they put a mask on you and cover the tooth and mouth so well because of the dangers involved. And this material had been in my mouth for so many years as is, mashing away at my food.
I am in the water treatment field for nearly 30 years now. One major comment I usually tell anyone is filter your water or you will be the filter. Most especially city water. At my home, I use reverse osmosis (dirt cheap on eBay) and add a few drops of a liquid multi trace mineral concentrate to each pitcher full before we put it into the fridge. If you have well water that has manganese, until you correct the problem don't let your pregnant wife and younger kids take showers because this heavy metal will vaporize, kids will breath it (also mother to fetus) and like anything else you breath goes from the lungs first to the brain where it lodges and can cause learning disabilities and tremor type problems. So imagine the heavy metal fillings in your teeth also let off vapors when you chew, you breath, it goes to the brain. Metal and neuro electric impulses don't go well together.
Here are some more key words to look into;
- Lorenzo's oil - work on the mylene outer layer of nerves.
- Olive oil - Oleic acid
- Oxalic acid - most people lack it.
- Lack of Selenium in the daily diet due to low selenium levels in crop lands.
- Look in Google with (+nexus +selenium) and click on the first two cached versions.
- Stay away from citric acid, meat, dairy and anything with refined flour or sugar for at least 6 months. Your body needs a break.
- Liver and kidney cleanses are also important with a combined colonic irrigation. Also
- Eat less, live longer.
I know this is impossible to say but there must be a way you can beat this.
This is also a good video that had blown me away. It's 2 hours.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2095786730805958061
I want to try it as prevention. This man is using electric DC current sent to the wrist to kill off all parasite, bacteria, virus, microbe, fungus, etc. Within 3 hours all the blood in your body flows through your arm, gets exposed to the current 4hz impulse 4-5ma via two pure silver wire probes for 3 hours a day for three weeks. It's small so you have it taped on your arm so you can still work and people won't even know it is there. I will try it. If you took all the parasites, bacteria, virus, microbes, fungus and all other foreign and often called alien forms of life in a man weighing 160 pounds, you would have 2 pounds worth. That's 2 pounds of micro bad guys just weening off our bodies, getting stuck in our joints, hiding in our lymph nodes and overtaxing our auto immune system. We are all such hospitable hosts.
About your fantabulous motor, it's too bad that Honk tried his best and still there is no progress. Now your bad news just compounds this by millions.
One of my good friends and close OU collaborator owns a complete machine shop that generally produces medical grade apparatus and parts using all the metal types. They do real nice work. If you ever needed a collaboration, to build another unit as a parallel effort, I could look into it and I think he and a few other guys that I work with locally in OU may have an interest.
I think your motor could work with some good old Tesla know-how and just bypass the EE part for now. Efficiency is in the simplicity and robustness of the design. If Tesla was here today and he saw your motor, don't you think he could have operated it at its peak performance using 1900 technology. Something to think about Jack.
Right now, like everyone else, I don't know how your motor works exactly, but I would assume at this stage that you are not using the magnetic field shift to control the switching. I think you were using points and then Honks controller. Now what would Tesla do, is the question here Jack. Tesla has shown us in his patents that there is a way of running a motor so that the energy expended returns to the source. But from my overview of what's happening on the motor scene, if you use solid state for switching, you will inevitably have to have a main ground line going through a SS component, and then it gets fried. For your motor to work, I feel it has to have both positive and negative on a circuit that does not let the current stop. It has to go in, produce, return, go in, produce, return. SS will go in, produce, and fry.
They can't handle the return to the source because they stand between the source and the load. Standard motor controllers work since they are not concerned about energy efficiency our returning energy to the source otherwise they would also fry. I remember I just unplugged a running motor from an inverter and my 1200 watt inverter fried. I also remember our 240 volts dc 3hp motor was switched on without energizing the rotor field and the flyback just pulverized this heavy duty start switch.
We are touching on this subject in The Tesla Project thread. I tried one of the circuits made by @AC on a small DC motor. With one impulse the motor turned to the right and used the return to the source to turn it back to the left without consuming any more energy. lol. So you are getting two motions for the price of one. Something to think about. If you plan to give your device to the university, maybe have them look that thread over for some ideas.
For myself and I am very sure from everyone here at overunity.com, I wish you the best in health and happiness and success for your grand vision.
Also eat lots of algae like Spirulina,
helps a lot to get toxic stuff out of the body.
Regards, Stefan.
Hello wattsup,
Well I have had to dr. tell me I have ALS, one in Cleveland and one in Columbus. I the last six months I have lost 40 lbs of muscle on my body. My arms look like I am 100 years old. I have lost alot of my strenth in my arms and leggs.
I feel like that guy on TV, I have lost over 40 lbs of weight at the tewnder age of 63.
I have studied electromagnetics and purmanent magnets for over 25 years, every thing I could read, I read. I also have alot of work in testing different things. I used to be a prototype maker in the maching shop in Detroit. Thats were I learned the machine shop. In that shop I built mixers, drills, and all kinds of stuf. In there I learnt to build mold for plastic, build motors, and just about everything.
If anybody wants to help me with the motor, bring them on. I know that this motor is running at over 250%. And it would be a shame if this motor died with me. I do not know if OSU is going to pick it up or not. I havent heard from them lately. I took it up to show them and I ran into a bunch of none beleavers. I have a big motor in my shop that uses 2" by 4" magnets. This motor will run on the same current(90watts) and produce much more power. I think it will run at over 300%. Thats the great thing with this motor, no mater how big you make it it will still run on the same 90 watts and produce alot of power. But I don't have the money to buy magnets for it. I have stoped selling shares of the company because I am dieing. The Dr. gave me about 3 to 4 years of life, they also said that I would loose my voise in about 8 months, and I would live in a wheel chair the last 2 years of my life.
Hello hartiberlin,
Can I ask you what algae like Spirulina is? Can you buy it in the USA? I have been trying to buy something to clear my body of toxins, but have had no luck. I have had a machine shop for about 7 years now. I work with aluminum alot, at the end of the day my hands are black with aluminum, my hands are scarred up and I think I am being poisioned by this aluminum. But I cannot get anybody to take a toxins report on my body. The Dr. in Columbus did not take any tests at all, but yet he come up with ALS. I would think you would need to take some tests to satisfy that I had ALS and not just that I was poisioned in some way.
I want to thank everybody for being concerned about me, I really appreciate it.
Thanks,,,,,JackH
Hello All,
Another thing I wanted to tell you all. When I went to OSU they told me that they hadn't sent any body down to test this motor.
A white van showed up one morning with OSU stickers on the doors. Two young men cam out of the van and said they were from OSU to test the motor. Well I had no reason to question them so I let them into my shop. They put a dino on it and tested it. I had to build the test stand for the dino and hook it up to the motor. It tested out to just over 1/2 HP on 90 watts. They said they would get back with me at OSU in a couple weeks. Was this the government or who was it.
I was drinking a cup of coffee while all of this was going on. I maybe think they may have poisend my coffee to get me out of the way with this motor. I am the only one that knows how to put this motor togather to make it work, my wife does not know how to build it or neather does my step son.
Thanks,,,,,Later,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand
@Jack
Sad to hear. If you lost 40 pounds of muscle, you're body is trying to get fed from your body because it is not getting it from your digestive system. The first thing I would do is find a "competant" naturopath or homeopath and/or start getting a few colonic irrigations since that is where most people start having the problem. Some people could not even walk anymore and after two of these, they are back on their feet. You have to realize that the colon has been taxed all your life and it is incredible how much matter can get physically stuck in there blocking the nutrient absorbing cavities.
Also, if you are a fast eater, chewing only a few times before you swallow your food, this is really bad. You have to take your time and chew at least 20-30 times per mouth full. Your stomach does not have teeth and most of this unchewed food will just pass into the digestive system and never be used. Actually it will ferment more then anything else. Digestion begins in the mouth.
About your motor, my regular e-mail is wattsup1004@hotmail.com and if you have a picture and some general dimensions of the device, that I can show my group, this will simplify things. I can state here that it will never be left with anyone and it will never be posted anywhere as this is confidential to you. Also, if you send me a direct e-mail, I will then respond to your e-mail address with my full personal contact information so you can contact me anytime you want. Geez, it's about time this motor saw the light of day. I would also urge you to take photos of the unit, any documents should be copied and given to a notary or other person of confidence for safe keeping. Also, what is the status of the device, is it in patent pending, etc., and you mentioned you had sold shares in your company. I am puzzled that people would invest in this without knowing exactly what the device does, how it is made, etc. Is there not anyone near you that has the technical skills to understand the device. This is not good because you have your lifes works in there. About the two men that came to measure the device, this is troubling that the OSU did not know anything about this. Is this recently?
@JackH,
First, I want to say that I'm very sorry to hear about your condition and I sincerely hope that it's a false alarm and you'll get back to yourself very soon, to continue and bring to fruition your important research.
Now, as far as testing the apparatus goes, have you tried to get in touch with Hal Puthoff in Texas? He is a superb researcher, one of the best in the field and he has done a lot of testing of such machines. I think he is one of the best academics to go to for an assessment of whether or not your device is OU.
Wish you all the best.
my thoughts about als
http://als.shimon.site1.co.il/ (http://als.shimon.site1.co.il/)
i have wrote an article in my site.
Hello shimondoodkin,
Thanks for the info, I do have some hope now.
Thanks again,,,,,,JackH
It seems me, that we are wasting a gold opportunity.
The opportunity to happen to history like the generation that brought the solution to worldwide the energetic problem, that open the possibilities to live green.
In all the Internet technology with the potential of to be overunity whose principle has been verified by third, that is single one technology is the one of Hilden Brandt and the Joseph Flynn that is similar.
Flynn disappear, so you see working secretly, but they hilden Brandt has been opened with us and it has given clear instructions us of its invention, now he in front of two problems and we must help it. In the first place, it is necessary to arm a group that goes to Hilden Brandt so that it supports it, that can help it in their state of health and assuring that their invention is talk backable, making a video documentary, where is spoken of the life of hilden brandt and of its invention, where the same one explains the operation principle, and shows its prototype working.
Clear everything within which Hilden Braundt allows.
After is necessary to make a budget of which it is needed to have the prototype working, with that then budget we make an account of paypal and moneybookers so that all the people can make contributions, (I will give 100$), as additional motivation all person that a contribution does its name stayed enrolled in a Web page, like test that we contribute for the project which we revolutionize the world of century XXII. I believe that that amount of money for the budget can be obtained very quickly.
With the prototype working is placed, taking to a electric car like Toyota Prius and to do propagating in all means, popular mechanics magazine, discovery channel, in the forums of technology in blogs and ready will come an avalanche of possibilities.
I as for me wanted to make the motor of hilden brandt in Venezuela paying royalty to Hilden Brandt by each sold motor.
Hello Elisha,
Well I really do not know what you are talking about, but here I go again.
The people at OSU was very inpressed, but they were none beleivers that you could get more out than in. So I do not think they are going to do anything.
Now two guys came down from they said from OSU. No they put a dino on this prototype motor and they tested it at over 1/2 HP on input off just 90 Watts. Now thats about 300% efficiency. I found out that no mater how big you build this motor that it still runs on about 90 Watts. I found out later that they did not come from OSU, I do not know where they came from. I think they came from the Government, oil companys, or power companys.
I am open to any suggestion that you have. I cannot get any body to beleive in my motor, OSU, Don Freeburn(government), or any one. I have a little trouble talking on the phone because of my ALS, I think they think Im crasy.
I'll listen to any suggestion you have. I really do not want this motor to dye with me. However my wife could use the money and I would be able to pay off my investers also. If you want to talk about this motor, leave me a personal message.
Thanks,,,,,,,Later,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand
hey Jack,
That's really not good news, especially about "unknown" testers finding OU then wandering back to their devious hole thinking/planning who knows what ...
How about wandering over to the last page of the Thane Heins Perepiteia thread and getting in touch with RCH (Richard Hoagland) from Coast to Coast AM radio? He's talking about setting up an interview with Thane and others TBD.
tak
Hi there Jack.
About the money thing. I do think some people here are willing to donate money including me. No problem there. But you got to make it easy on the people. So like some others have suggested please consider opening an account with Paypal https://www.paypal.com/ (https://www.paypal.com/) it is easy and will not cost you anything. So take your time and read the site first and such. Once you have an account anyone can send you money. Think about it. And let us know.
I have not long ago started a project to replicate your method of operation/motor.
Now I know you use normal laminated steel, but I uses grain aligned silicon laminated steel C cores. And maybe you remember from the video I did send you privately some time ago, they have some pretty advantages effects over normal transformer unaligned laminations (any I'm not talking about max flux density levels)
Anyway here is what I'm working on.
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/Hilden001.jpg (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/Hilden001.jpg)
The airgaps in the system are going to be sub 0.07mm which is no problem I have done that more then once on other projects.
Here is the rotor. The whole thing is final machined in one pass, and the bearings are heat fitted, it is all hyper dead accurate.
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/Rotor.jpg (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/Rotor.jpg)
The valves are modified C cores as well. These still need their poles rounded out.
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/CoreHil.jpg (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/CoreHil.jpg)
Now I know you have once told that you reached o.u only after a certain size magnet. Well I can not top that level right now. But at least this version will give me an indication of the performance and effect.
Kind regards,
Steven
Hello All,
Well I think I have a Paypal account set up now, it,s under: Hilden-Brand Energy LLC or maybe: Jack W Hildenbrand.
The e-mail address is: jkcc@ohiohills.com
Hello Nali2001,
It really looks god what you have, it,s set up a little different than what I have, but I think it will work. Thanks for showing the pictures.
Later,,,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand
Quote from: Nali2001 on April 25, 2008, 03:19:21 PM
Hi there Jack.
About the money thing. I do think some people here are willing to donate money including me. No problem there. But you got to make it easy on the people. So like some others have suggested please consider opening an account with Paypal https://www.paypal.com/ (https://www.paypal.com/) it is easy and will not cost you anything. So take your time and read the site first and such. Once you have an account anyone can send you money. Think about it. And let us know.
I have not long ago started a project to replicate your method of operation/motor.
Now I know you use normal laminated steel, but I uses grain aligned silicon laminated steel C cores. And maybe you remember from the video I did send you privately some time ago, they have some pretty advantages effects over normal transformer unaligned laminations (any I'm not talking about max flux density levels)
Anyway here is what I'm working on.
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/Hilden001.jpg (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/Hilden001.jpg)
The airgaps in the system are going to be sub 0.07mm which is no problem I have done that more then once on other projects.
Here is the rotor. The whole thing is final machined in one pass, and the bearings are heat fitted, it is all hyper dead accurate.
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/Rotor.jpg (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/Rotor.jpg)
The valves are modified C cores as well. These still need their poles rounded out.
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/CoreHil.jpg (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/CoreHil.jpg)
Now I know you have once told that you reached o.u only after a certain size magnet. Well I can not top that level right now. But at least this version will give me an indication of the performance and effect.
Kind regards,
Steven
Hi Steven,
Nice design. What kind of equipment are you using to get that small of an airgap?
Thanks,
Larry
Hi jack.
One needs to know the email address from the one you are sending money to.
So what email address did you have registered by them?
https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&SESSION=52A_KGI5cm0ymGhX9XdCIPRwszGLMZyrNu4Q-oqr7-2K3Fp8hZracSpgljC&dispatch=5885d80a13c0db1f822cfe4b06d0ea2b4eee6d2d0c9cb9d6760b9370e77cd1d6 (https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&SESSION=52A_KGI5cm0ymGhX9XdCIPRwszGLMZyrNu4Q-oqr7-2K3Fp8hZracSpgljC&dispatch=5885d80a13c0db1f822cfe4b06d0ea2b4eee6d2d0c9cb9d6760b9370e77cd1d6)
Steven
Hi Larry,
Well I have a lathe and mill.
So that is about all you ever really need when doing these things.
And such precision is not all that special machining wise, for example when machining an axle to match a bearing I normally machine it 0.02mm too big so that a heated bearing will just fit. And so these precisions are regular use.
0.07mm is about as thick as a sheet of paper. And needed when dealing with these systems.
Regards,
Steven
Hello Nali2001,
The e-mail address is: jkcc@ohiohills.com
Thanks,,,,Later,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand
Quote from: Nali2001 on April 25, 2008, 06:20:30 PM
Hi Larry,
Well I have a lathe and mill.
So that is about all you ever really need when doing these things.
And such precision is not all that special machining wise, for example when machining an axle to match a bearing I normally machine it 0.02mm too big so that a heated bearing will just fit. And so these precisions are regular use.
0.07mm is about as thick as a sheet of paper. And needed when dealing with these systems.
Regards,
Steven
Thanks Steven. But, I'm more interested in how much that accurate of a lathe and mill would cost. I don't have either, but have earlier training. Would the large neos cost more than the lathe and mill or visa versa?
Thanks,
Larry
Thanks Jack,
And Hi Larry,
My magnets are only going to be 20x20mm each.
Jacks machine is gigantic and one needs very serious machinery to work on these sizes. And also you would need a ship load of laminated steel plates. The magnets would be the least concern since that is 'only' a money issue.
Well I could give you some indications what good machines cost. I for one don't use these flimsy harborfreight stuff like the 'mini lathe' or 'mini mill' But I use industrial machinery BUT second (or more) hand. These machines are often still very good and indestructible and would probably outlive you with these 'simple' projects. And since they are second hand they are affordable. Plus these industrial machine have the capability to do relatively large workpieces. especially on a mill that is more then handy, well not that mine is that big and such.
Here is my tools:
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/LatheMill.jpg (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/LatheMill.jpg)
The lathe is a Ai Hembrug dr1 - Cost 850euro
Info http://www.lathes.co.uk/hembrug/ (http://www.lathes.co.uk/hembrug/)
The mill is a Van Norman - Cost 500euro
Both are probably from the 1960's
Depends on what project you do, but I use these machines almost daily and so I money well spend.
Regards,
Steven
Quote from: Nali2001 on April 25, 2008, 10:02:05 PM
Thanks Jack,
And Hi Larry,
My magnets are only going to be 20x20mm each.
Jacks machine is gigantic and one needs very serious machinery to work on these sizes. And also you would need a ship load of laminated steel plates. The magnets would be the least concern since that is 'only' a money issue.
Well I could give you some indications what good machines cost. I for one don't use these flimsy harborfreight stuff like the 'mini lathe' or 'mini mill' But I use industrial machinery BUT second (or more) hand. These machines are often still very good and indestructible and would probably outlive you with these 'simple' projects. And since they are second hand they are affordable. Plus these industrial machine have the capability to do relatively large workpieces. especially on a mill that is more then handy, well not that mine is that big and such.
Here is my tools:
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/LatheMill.jpg (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/LatheMill.jpg)
The lathe is a Ai Hembrug dr1 - Cost 850euro
Info http://www.lathes.co.uk/hembrug/ (http://www.lathes.co.uk/hembrug/)
The mill is a Van Norman - Cost 500euro
Both are probably from the 1960's
Depends on what project you do, but I use these machines almost daily and so I money well spend.
Regards,
Steven
Thanks Steven, I'll check them out.
Regards,
Larry
Hi Jack,
Before I/we go further, I just did a little paypal test.
I transfered 5dollar for testing purposes to jkcc@ohiohills.com.
Let me know if it came though. (I Don't know how long the processing takes, so if it's not there yet check again later)
Let us know.
Steven
Hello Steven,
Yes I got a Paypal statement through the e-mail that said that the money was sent to my bank. Thanks alot
Thanks you very much,,,,,Later,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand
Ok good to see it works.
I send some other amount today.
Ok to all who feel like helping Jack a bit, you can if you feel like it transfer some money via Paypal.
Here is the Paypal page:
https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_send-money (https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_send-money)
And Jacks email address to use is: jkcc@ohiohills.com
I guess all little bits help.
Thanks,
Kinds regards,
Steven
Hello Steven,
Thanks for the donation, it was really good of you to do that.
I am trying to pay my patent lawyer the $1500.00. He said that it would cost that just to continue the motor patents. I want so say something about the motor patent. If anyone wants to build this motor for there own use, I will not stop them. If anyone wants info on how to build this motor, just send me an e-mail, and I will try to send them info how to build it. There are all kinds of ways to build this motor, and I think Steven has it best. I like the way he places the magnets, and the material he is using will be much better.
Thanks Steven again,,,,,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand
To one of my heros.., Jack, and all others showing interest in Jacks ongoing work. SEND him something and show all that we're not just full of hot air!
Carl
Hello Carl,
Thanks for the donation, it was really good of you to do that.
Later,,,,,JackH
Your very welcome,
Looking forward to meeting you...
Later
Carl
Hi guys!
I am new to the site, as I came across it when i googled "sprial magnets". Lately I've been feeling some weird sort of compulsion to think about magnets,, spirals, harmonics, and music (I have no idea why).
Anyway, I just wanted to chime in and tell you that if you provided 3-view sketches of the parts to me, I can model it in 3D so people can see EXACTLY how you have it set up, etc.
Maybe this was done to perform the FEMM, but I am not sure from reading.
So if this could help you in anyway, please let me know.
-Dale
Hi Dale,
Welcome on forum. You can see some photos, some description here:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Director:Hilden-Brand_Electromagnet_Motor
and priciple here: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Image:Hilden-Brand_electromagnetic_valve.gif
Would like to know which 3D magnetic simulator you can use?
When you have some time could you run the no power and power on situations? Can the software run optimizations in the function of some variables? I do not give you cross sections of the iron blocks or strength of permanent magnets, you are free to judge either from the photos or by intuition ;)
Maybe others here also tell some 'wishes' on this interesting setup.
Thanks, Gyula
This all seems fishy to me. This motor appears rather easy to construct, why is there a problem with Jack being the only one to know how to put it together? Its a good idea (atleast what the peswiki shows).
What bugs me the most is that things are getting closer to being finished, then all of a sudden Jack is sick. First its ALS, then poison? He opens a paypal account and a bunch of people donate money? Are you sure Jack doesn't live in Nigeria?
I don't know guys... just doesn't sound right if you look at the big picture - hopefully I'm wrong.
Charlie
Hello Charlie,
I wanted to say I do not live in Nigeria.
I live in Jackson, Ohio
Your guote,
"I don't know guys... just doesn't sound right if you look at the big picture - hopefully I'm wrong"
You are wrong, Just talk to dingdat he has been down to my shop.
Thanks,,,,, JackH
For what it's worth, Jack lives where he says he lives. He has visited my shop, which is also in Ohio, and I have visited him at his shop. I saw his motor (one of them) run, and took some measurements on it (not power measurements, however.)
There is nothing fake about Jack or his motors. It would be impossible for me to comment on whether his motors are overunity or not, because I haven't witnessed power output measurements on the motors, but I can assure you that the motor exists, and it runs. I commented on my observations earlier in this thread.
I believe that Jack is very sincere, and has put a lot of work and money into his motors.
I do not have any stake in Jack's business or his motors. I am just an interested person that tried to help Jack when I could.
db
@Honk
That controller sure is purty..,
Having seen Jacks' motor and putting a scope on it, it should be noted that his BEMF IS in the KV range AND is the reason it works. In order to smooth it out he uses caps which leads me to the main question. How are you going to overcome these spikes in your ckt?
Jack,
Thanks for allowing me to see your motors and if you'll allow me one more visit I'll make certain to bring a dyno.
More importantly, I hope you are feeling better. Your battle is no longer with this marvelous motor and
I will pray for your speedy recovery.
@Charlie
After having attempted to slow this monster down using a shop rag and all my force, I could not. No-load draw from power supplies is 150V and 1 amp as measured across a 1 ohm resistor. Wave form measured was sawtooth so RMS will be less than the stated 1 amp. PP on sawtooth was 1V. When I loaded it down the draw did go up by approx. 20% but that is still far under any other normal motor with a similar load. Ever tried to stop a bench grinder (1/2 HP) with a shop rag on the shaft? you CAN bring it to a stop.
Honk,
Had him momentarily remove the caps from one coil and wathched the points provide quite some light show (sorry Jack, I know its a pain in the u-know-what to keep cleaning those contacts). Point is this:
This motor and a couple of others he made, all exibit extreme efficiency and extreme HV.
Good luck Jack and I'll be there when you're ready for that final test and I'm crossing my fingers on Honks controller,
Carl
I would please me a lot to make a functional controller for Jack.
But right now it has to wait. I'm having a full schedule at this time and I
expect to be fully occupied for at least half a year ahead.
I know about the Bemf in the KV range but this was not what killed
my controller. The Bemf is easy to handle but the other unknown
voltage feedback of more modest levels is what made the mess.
I'm sure I can handle this voltage as well and build Jack a good and
functional controller. But it will have to be postponed at this time.
/Honk
Hi Carl and Honk,
you don?t need a controller.
A simple mechanical points switch with do a a few P600 diodes as freewheel diodes parallel to the coils
to suppress the BackEMF voltage.
In Series with the P600 freewheel diodes you can put an additional load like a 12 Volts halogen lamp,
so you "see" the current flowing through the diodes during the BackEMF.
As the diodes clamp the BackEMF to just their 0.7 Volts threshold level,
you will not see any high voltage, but only high current through these diodes.
So better put 10 x P600 in parallel to be able to drive 60 amps contineously
through them for each contact point.
So you would need just 30 x P 600 diodes for the 3 coils.
No need for any complicated controller.
You could control the timing by shifting the commutator disk( where the
point contacts are loacted on) back and forth in
an angle versus the rotor,so you could control, when the contact points are firing..
Very easy to do.
As Carl reported, the motor only consumes about less than 150 Watts, also,
when a big mechanical load of several hundred Watts is applied.
So it should be easy to couple the motor to a generator and have a selfrunning loop.
Hope this helps.
Regards,. Stefan.
Hello Carl, Honk, Stefan,
Well I think what got be in to this ALS was, when you go into fight or flite, your emunsystem shuts down. No body would beleive me when I said this motor was over unity. Even OSU was a bunch of none beleivers. I have call Don Freemon from the government and he said it was impossable. I have call all kinds of people and no won will beleive me, no wone will even go as far as test it.. The only one that beleive me was the ones that said they were from OSU and tested it with a dino at over 1/2 HP. And to this day I do not know were they came from.
Right now I am consitrating on my health and do not want to get involved with the motor untill my health is in order. I am doing the Healing Codes, (www.TheHealingCodes.com). Right now I am taking Spirulina, Chlorella to help get the heavy mettals out of my system. And also Neeroga to get my emunsystem going again. I am starting to feel better now, and I even starting to gain weight, my mussale giters are going away and I beleive with GODs help I will beat this ALS in my body.
I just do not want get into the motor right now, because it was what got me into this messssss.
Thanks to all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand
Hello Stefan,
I was wondering if you could give me some kind of a drawing on how you would put these P600 diodes in the sercit. When I get to feling better I may give them a try. Wright now if I put a diode across the caps and hook a 100 watt light bulb across it the light bulb will burn out fast.
Thank you,,,,,,, Jack W Hildenbrand
Hi Jack,
here is the circuit for one of your motor coils.
You have to make these 3 times and put the 3 points together in a 120 degrees
arrangement
on a plate, so that you can change in angle relationship to the
rotor.
The camshaft will then open and close the points
mechanically.
This way you can control,
when exactly the coils are energized.
Maybe it would be even beneficial to
use nosuppression freewheel diodes
and just have 60 Watts fluorescent tubes parallel across the
coils and let the contact points just spark.
Then you have the Newman effect.
Be sure to use then graphite and copper as the contact points.
The fluorescent tubes will save your coils from oversparking and shortout
and the BackEMF will be converted to flashing
of the fluorescent tubes.
But maybe just try first this P600 freewheel diode circuit.
Good luck for your health,
yes Spirulina and Chlorella are great...
Regards, Stefan.
Hello Stefan,
I printed out the drawing and your message. I'll give it a try maybe next week.
Thank you very much,,,,,,,,Jack W hildenbrand
@Jack
Glad to see you are using the Healing Codes. I will be sending you a donation soon to help out with the lawyer and I have put a Help Jack signature on my posts. Suggest others do this also. And if there are any money men out there, Jack needs your help, now. (A few mil will do. lol)
Regarding your motor, if the three coils are not being energized at the same time, that is if they are being energized in succession, then why not think about sending the flyback of the first to the second, then the flyback of the second to third, then the flyback of the third to the first. This way you let the coils handle the flyback by using it, not by wasting it. If the points where two way, one NC and one NO, this could be done quickly. Or two sets of points would also do it. You could probably run the same motor with 30 watts instead of 90. Then maybe they would believe.
Anyways, get well soon so you can finish this motor.
I tried putting freewheel diodes on the motor while I was there. It doesn't work. It gets rid of the spikes, but it causes the motor to quit functioning. The current through the diodes apparently causes a magnetic field in the coils that is quite detrimental to the operation of the motor. Killing the spikes across the points kills the motor. The motor slowed down rapidly when I put the diodes in the circuit.
db
Okay, dingbat,
but how much was it slowing it down ?
Then the only other option is
to use real good points from
graphite and copper and have just in parallel with each coil
at least a 60 Watts fluorescent tube
to suppress the spark and get ridof the high voltage.
Then the voltage is clamped to the about 300 to 400 Volts
where the fl tube fires.
Then it would be best to use a few 12 Volts lead acid batteries
in series to drive the motor as these are recharged
via the sparking that is left at the points.
(->Newman effect)
@JackH,
if you use the circuit make sure that the positive supply Voltage is
applied at the top and the negative pole at the bottom.
( So the diodes only conduct during the BackEMF)
Regards, Stefan.
Hello dingbat,
I just remembered that you tryed the diodes over the coils. We tryed so many things that day that I forgot about that one. Thanks dingbat, for any help you can give on this motor.
Thanks again.
Hello Stefan,
I'll go ahead an try it again Stefan. once I get the diodes and the light bulb. I'll just try it on one coil and see what happins.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Based on what I have read from Jack's description of his motor, what makes the motor run, and indeed the whole novelty of this thing, is the ability of the device to "turn off" a permanent magnet. This is the groundbreaking part. Can anyone verify that this is what's happening?
Hello utilitarian,
It not only turns the permanet magnet ON/OFF, but it amplifies the permanent magnet by 4 times to the rotor.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Quote from: JackH on May 27, 2008, 09:56:35 PM
Hello utilitarian,
It not only turns the permanet magnet ON/OFF, but it amplifies the permanent magnet by 4 times to the rotor.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Great, here is my advice. Just demonstrate this effect in action. That is all you need to do to convince people that your motor runs. Showing someone the running motor just confuses things and raises questions like, "well, I am not convinced there is more out than in." Show a permament magnet becoming instantly demagnetized and then remagnetized, and that's all you need to do to get funding.
Well here is a MagnetON/OFF Hildenbrand type valve test.
Test shows with and without a magnets - same power input.
http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/MagnetExtraPower.wmv (http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/MagnetExtraPower.wmv)
And do believe me it is almost locked solid with the magnet added.
And yes that is 1 watt input (in both cases)
Regards,
Steven
Hello Steven,
I downloaded your video clip, I was going down to the shop to get a video of it but, but could not have done it better.
Thanks Steven, It was nice of you to do that. People have a hard time beleiving me anyway.
Thanks Again,,,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand
Quote from: Nali2001 on May 28, 2008, 09:21:33 AM
Well here is a MagnetON/OFF Hildenbrand type valve test.
Test shows with and without a magnets - same power input.
http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/MagnetExtraPower.wmv (http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/MagnetExtraPower.wmv)
And do believe me it is almost locked solid with the magnet added.
And yes that is 1 watt input (in both cases)
Regards,
Steven
I may be missing something here, but this looks like a simple demonstration of an electromagnet. I thought the idea was to turn a permanent magnet off and on?
Hi there Utilitarian,
Well yes and no.
With little power you can "redirect" the field of the magnet and it adds-to the electro magnet field, resulting in a bigger combined magnetic force. If it is not clear from the video. You can see that with the electro magnet only one can move the second core section around with not too much effort (not that much holding force). But once the magnets are added and the same electro magnet is engaged (with the same power) you now have the field of the electro magnet, as well as the field of the permanent magnet added together through the second core section. Giving it an greatly increased 'holding force' and as you can see in the video once the magnets are added to the electro magnet one can hardly move the secondary core section anymore. Beauty of it is that once the power is shut down. The field of the permanent magnet returns instantly to its position of least resistance, and thus it returns into the main core again, releasing its grip on the secondary core. So you can see this as a valve that 'valves' magnetism 1/2 of the total magnetism is from the electro magnet and the other half is supplied by the magnets. Main point of it all is that the magnets-on-the-core situation gives you much more holding force then the electro magnet alone (for the same power input).
Steven
Great video.
well it shows how the permanent magnet flux is redirected into the
"U" type core that is attached behind the paper.
If no input power to the coil is applied,
all the flux goes the shortout way via the electromagnet?s
path core.
When power is applied, the flux is redirected into the outer U shaped core
and you can see, that the pull force is much more,due to
the flux of the magnet is added...
Quote from: Nali2001 on May 28, 2008, 08:57:19 PM
Hi there Utilitarian,
Well yes and no.
With little power you can "redirect" the field of the magnet and it adds-to the electro magnet field, resulting in a bigger combined magnetic force. If it is not clear from the video. You can see that with the electro magnet only one can move the second core section around with not too much effort (not that much holding force). But once the magnets are added and the same electro magnet is engaged (with the same power) you now have the field of the electro magnet, as well as the field of the permanent magnet added together through the second core section. Giving it an greatly increased 'holding force' and as you can see in the video once the magnets are added to the electro magnet one can hardly move the secondary core section anymore. Beauty of it is that once the power is shut down. The field of the permanent magnet returns instantly to its position of least resistance, and thus it returns into the main core again, releasing its grip on the secondary core. So you can see this as a valve that 'valves' magnetism 1/2 of the total magnetism is from the electro magnet and the other half is supplied by the magnets. Main point of it all is that the magnets-on-the-core situation gives you much more holding force then the electro magnet alone (for the same power input).
Steven
Yes, and not just double. According to Maxwell's Pulling force formula of F = B squared A / (2 μ0). Where B is flux density, when you double the flux density, it is squared, so that you now have 4 times the pulling force.
Regards, Larry
QuoteOkay, dingbat,
but how much was it slowing it down ?
It made the motor quite useless. It caused an effect that was like torque reversals as the coils discharged through the diodes. I was initially surprised how the diodes killed the motor, but when I thought about it it made sense. The diodes cause current in the coils that causes a magnetic pulse that happens to counteract the armature rotation at the instance it occurs. I don't know if the motor would have kept running with the diodes in the circuit. It seems that the spikes must be allowed to dissipate somewhat unchecked to not disturb the torque being produced.
If the voltage is allowed to rise, the current can remain low. With little or no current flow when the coils discharge, there is no magnetic disturbance during the discharge, which allows the armature to advance past the magnet during the release portion of the cycle. When the current flows through the diodes, the valve grabs the armature as it is trying to move away to the next pole. The effect was very dramatic and devastating to the proper operation of the motor.
I might note that the operation of the motor was very impressive too.
I am sure that it is possible to add solid state switching that can withstand the voltages we were seeing from the coils. Honk was almost there. I think that if and when he has time he can make the controller work with the information he has on the back emf and the forward emf spikes we saw.
Honk, Is there a simple way to take some high voltage IGBT's or something similar, and connect the points to directly fire the IGBTs - just to do a simple test on the motor? I will be busy for the next several weeks, but I could possibly make a trip down late in June, and hook up some temporary switching stuff to the existing points if you think it would work. I am not an expert on high voltage switching transistors, so I don't know if they would survive the voltages we recorded during the testing. If you could advise me on how to do something like this I could try to put something together for Jack and help him get it going. I'm just thinking some heavy switching electronics bolted to a heat sink or something.
Of course this would only be done with Jacks consent. It is his stuff, and I play by his rules.
db
Quote from: dingbat on May 28, 2008, 11:00:02 PM
Honk, Is there a simple way to take some high voltage IGBT's or something similar, and connect the points to directly fire the IGBTs - just to do a simple test on the motor? I will be busy for the next several weeks, but I could possibly make a trip down late in June, and hook up some temporary switching stuff to the existing points if you think it would work. I am not an expert on high voltage switching transistors, so I don't know if they would survive the voltages we recorded during the testing. If you could advise me on how to do something like this I could try to put something together for Jack and help him get it going. I'm just thinking some heavy switching electronics bolted to a heat sink or something.
Of course this would only be done with Jacks consent. It is his stuff, and I play by his rules.
db
Hi dingbat.
You could use this Ixys IGBTI, type XEL40N400 that handles 4000V.
http://www.ixyspower.com/store/Family.aspx?i=19
I'm not sure wether you can get hold of some samples on this transistor in time for your visit.
But it is an american company, tho. It might help you if you have the right connections.
@Dingbat and Jack,
If the motor coil voltage spike is allowed to rise and expire, the voltage will probably eventually break down the insulation on the coil wire. I have a suggestion to consider. Would a resistive wire (like a spark plug wire) and a spark plug (spark gap) allow the voltage to rise and opposing current to decrease, so that when the spark discharges in the spark plug, the impedance is at such a mismatch for the 6 ohm coil that it does not create much of a counter magnetic field to the motor when it is running, but still discharges the spike safely without damage to the coil???
Just a thought to toss around.
Good luck Jack and hope you continue to recover.
To all who are stuck on Jacks' huge BEMF and trying to think about what to use it for, forget it, that is not the point of this motor. The point is simply this.., small electrical input is multiplied in his configuration to give an amplified mechanical output period. Yes improvements could be done but all he wants is to confirm that the mechanical operation is OU. I, for one, believe it is. Having also seen several iterations of his concept I think we are loosing sight of what this motor does. It vastly improves the efficiency of electric motors. Cars, motorcycles, wheelchairs, you name it, all would benfit. He's not about to reinvent this machine and has been very gracious in allowing us to suggest various improvements but the bottom line is still the same.., more out than in!!!! Deal with it and help him to simply confirm. Once that is done, the world can make all the improvements all they want. For his truly masterfull machining and dedication to the principle of multiplying force we should all be assisting in any way he wants.
Jack,
I am one of your biggest fans and appreciate the opportunity you gave me to check this out for myself. My deepest regret is not having a dyno with me to do the one simple thing you ask. For this I appologize and know this. If you let me come back, I'll DEFINITELY bring or secure that dyno and we can be done with that. Those OSU (or whoever they are) people never bothered to give you thier results. Sure would like to know why????
Take care of yourself, your wife and Daisy and to HELL with the rest.
Your friend,
Carl
ps
Show Jack your support by sending funds. This is the American way, we do it for ourselves while helping others. Help him.
Quote from: dingbat on May 28, 2008, 11:00:02 PM
It made the motor quite useless. It caused an effect that was like torque reversals as the coils discharged through the diodes. I was initially surprised how the diodes killed the motor, but when I thought about it it made sense. The diodes cause current in the coils that causes a magnetic pulse that happens to counteract the armature rotation at the instance it occurs. I don't know if the motor would have kept running with the diodes in the circuit. It seems that the spikes must be allowed to dissipate somewhat unchecked to not disturb the torque being produced.
...
db
Hi Dingbat,
did you try to change the timing then ?
So did you change the firing angle versus rotor position ?
This must have been done, as surely the diode freewheel circuit will
change the timing...
Anyway, if this does not work out, if you will change the phase angle
of the commutator points firing versus the rotor position,
just use this attached much simper circuit.
The fluorescent tube will clamp the voltage to a maximum
of about 300 to 400 Volts and when the tube fires it will
even go down and release all the stored coil energy in a flash of light.
Be sure to use graphite copper contact points as it will enhance the
power output and if you use lead acid batteries for the 150 Volts power
supply, it will recharge your batteries due to the negative current spikes
ala Newman.
Good luck.
Regards, Stefan.
Well,
I had a longer telephone call with Carl ( Casman),
when he was visiting Jack.
He told me, that the motor is incredible strong mechanically
at the output.
Too bad that Jack did not yet do a dynamometer test and
Carl unfortunately did not have the time to buy
a dynamometer when he was there only for 1 or 2 days..
As Carl is ready to do this dynamometer test, it would
be best to test it now and have the motor
finally tested for maximum mechanical output,
as the capacitors Jack was using are okay for now
suppressing the sparking and the motor had really a great
mechanical output,as Carl posted.
So Jack, if your health is again better, just try to fix
a new date with Carl and please let him test your
motor with a dynamometer, so we will finall know,
what your motor puts out.
If it really puts out about 500 Watts mechanically from
about 100 to 150 Watts input power, then it should
be easy to couple a generator to it and have a selfrunning
loop.
Please Jack, keep us up to date, when you deceide to do such a test.
Carl is ready to bring all the equipment to your place,
so there is no need for you to have more expenses yourself..
Maybe this will also get you faster your patent,
when you can prove the power output.
Good luck.
Regards, Stefan.
Hello All,
Now I might make somebody made or not, but I got to say what I think.
Well I must go on about this motor I am building. I preached about this motor for about a year now, and nobody beleived me, even you Stefan. The doctor in Columbus told me that that is what caused me to get ALS, I was in fite or flight for so long about this motor that my emune system totally shut down. Now here come (Caseman) up to my shop. Now I want to say this guy was a totally nice guy and I liked him very much. But how are you all beleiveing him instead of me. I have never lied about this motor and never will. This motor was tested at 1/2 HP with a dino by somebody out there, imput was only 90 watts,and I was a witness to it. It produced over 3/4 HP of the geared shaft with a lower rpm.
Now I am not going to do anything with this motor till I am well or without ALS. My aturney talked to me the other day and he said that he could get the patent on the motor with no problem. Now I do not know what the hury is. It took Howerd Johnson 8 or 10 years to get a patent on his invention, and that was I beleive in the 70's, back when I first started on motor I am working on now. Now my wife has an insurence policy on me if I dye so she can pay the aturney off. Or if I live, it will take some time to pay it off. The aturney bill is up to about $2000.00 right now.
Now as for donations to my cause. There has been a total of $275.00 donated to my motor now. I told everybody that they would a part of the motor when it was ready to go to market. $275.00 just isent money to do anything with. I just do not have the money to get the motor into a self running mode yet. I need a generator yet and all the mounting hardwere to go with it. I must say I tryed the diode freewheel circuit across the coil, and it just does not work, Its holding the coils on to long and they hold the rotor back. Another thing, This motor is generating electricity that add to is power input, and no body will beleive that. dingbat is a witness to that.
Now this motor, built out of the right materials would be much smaller and much more powerfull. But I just do not have the time or the money to complete it to my satisfaction. A six valve radial motor would be much more powerfull than the one I built.
Well I must have said it all to no avail.
Later,,,,,,,JackH
To ALL,
He's got it and we need it.
I've put my money where my mouth is and sincerely ask others on this forum to do the same. This man is for real and so is his motor(s). Please people, help him. This is why we are here!
PayPal.com
send to jkcc@ohiohills.com
My motives are simple.., I want one of these units to power my boat!
Here's one of his beauts...
Now here's the bruiser. To see up close is to marvel at his precision. This is the unit that develops 1/2 to 3/4 hp at the output with 150V .75A input... do the math!
Carl
And here's a smaller unit from our machinist extrodinair...
Hi Jack,
I believe you, that your motor is overunity.
Can?t you just let Carl come again and bring all
the equipment with a generator and belts, etc to
do a coupled generator and try a selfrunning loop
with these units ?
Carl said to me, that he ready to do these tests and will
pay also all the generator unit and parts needed for these tests..
This will also help your patent being more backed up, so you
might get it faster.
As Carl has signed an NDA, he will only
tell, if the selfrunning loop worked or not, but not the details...
So maybe when your health is better in the next 2 or 3 week you can make
an apointment with Carl to visit you again ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi Jack
My contribution is on the way in paypal, US $. In this way show that I believe in Jack Hildendrand, I want to make your motor in my country paying royalty for you Jack.
The dyno test with Carl is for the not believers.
@Hartiberlin,
If Carl make the dyno test and is overunity, you can pay to Jack the overunity premium?? or need more proof?
Hello All,
While doing the Healing Codes, I got a call from Practitioner she told me to be totally stress free for about 6 to 8 weeks. I talked to a doctor that was healed by the Healing Codes, he said it took about 8 weeks and he went back to his doctor an he was totally no sign of ALS. So I think I will do the same as the doctor did, so no way will I go to the shop an work on the motor in this time untill I get rid of this ALS in my system.
Thanks to all that donated, I will remember you all. When this motor goes, there will be alot of money comming to all that donated.
Thanks Again,,,,,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand
Hi Jack
This is a bit off topic from the motor, but I don't think that'll worry you all that much, considering your last post.
I had a look at the Healing Codes website, and I know you probably get this all the time, but while there are reports of people being healed by it, there are also some things that indicate to me that you should tread carefully.
The main thing I noticed is that the website advertises in the same paragraph Dr. Ben Johnson and Alex Loyd's connection with both the DVD "The Secret", as well as a DVD with Rick Warren and Joel Olstean. This strikes me as being on a similar level to saying you're best mates with both George Bush and Bin Laden. Also, the DVD with Rick Warren and Joel Olstean which was apparently being produced some time ago hasn't appeared in any searches. I havn't found any references on other websites to the Trinity Broadcast Network Special that they were supposed to have appeared on in 2007 either.
I would think that since all of us here are well versed in the art of scams, having been around the free energy community, that this website would immediately set off alarm bells. To me it seems reminiscent of a Dennis Lee venture, but maybe theres something in it I'm just not seeing. And even if there is truth to it, theres also some things which are almost certainly lies, so be careful.
Edit:
A quote from their website:
"The only thing the Codes address is stress. Medical advice is outside of what we do. The Healing Codes approach is to remove stress so the body is most able to heal itself. If you are taking steps to reduce stress, heal cellular memories, angers, resentments, and achieve a sense of gratitude, love and respect for your self then you are on the right path. Codes are not created for a disease. They are created to remove stress related memories at the cellular level, whether you are aware of them or not."
It seems to me that if you read into that statement, they're basically saying don't expect anything measurable as a way of covering their asses. Really starting to look like a bit of a scam now. Out of interest, how'd you find out about it?
- James
How about that!
Now you're being critiqued on your choice of medical plans. UN FREAKIN BELIEVABLE!!!!
Jack,
let Daisy screen your msgs.., end of stress.
Glad to hear some are contributing and I hope this starts a groundswell for the ONLY person on this site who Actually has something. Remember folks, we are here to revolutionize energy in this country and I for one will go to the ends of the Earth to achieve this.., but then again, only have to travel to Ohio.
Keep the funds coming and watch. There's no better stress relief than not having to worry about the money.
He doesn't have many needs, just a few invention related bills. How many of you would like to have that problem?????
When GK finishes up on his TPU I forsee a coupling of technologies that will truly give us our independance from (ugh) foriegn oil. It should be obvious to all that Big oil AND Washington are the true barbarians in America and only people like Jack are the the true revolutionaries. Hitch a ride and do it soon!
PayPal.com
Send to jkcc@ohiohills.com
Invest in tomorrow, invest in Jack and as the others on this site get close to fruition, invest in them.
This is where we make a difference and this will be our legacy.
Add possitively to the Heros and we will make that difference.
I may not attend church but most definitely pray for Jack. For the rest of you, try this on for size!!!!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147
ps
Jack, I know some of those pics were posted earlier on but plz let me know if you have a problem with my putting those here.
All the best,
Carl
Hello James,
Every person on this planit has to have something to beleive in. I beleive in the Healing Codes.
Hello Carl,
Thanks for taking up for me. And as for the pictures, post all you like.
Later,,,,,,,Jack
The demonstration is very interesting, probably the most interesting thing I have seen on this site. We just need to perform the final step of making the device self-run.
That said, why are you guys donating to his patent lawyer fund? I could understand if the money was for healthcare, but it isn't.
Also, I find it sketchy that Jack is refusing to have the device tested, at no expense to him.
@ utilitariun
Just so you know, he hasn't refused. As a matter of fact, if I didn't have my head up my ass I would have brought a Dyno with me for the final test. I assume that would be enough evidence for anyone.
He is fighting a larger battle with his illness and I'll wait as long as it takes to go up there and get it right the next time.
I really don't care what he uses the money for and I will continue to send what I can. Why? Because he has done the work and has a working prototype which I saw first hand. I could not stop his motor (using a shop rag and all the pressure I could muster) and that alone convinced me of the output torque.
If you feel the need to find out where he spends such funds then you are most definitely missing the picture.
HE HAS IT and WE NEED IT!
Support those troopers who have done the work. That way everyone wins. He's not asking for money, I am and so are some others on this forum.
Call it whatever you want but I believe in his motor and he deserves everyones support.
Carl
ps
when GK gets his TPU up and running I'll do the same for him. look into your heart for the right thing to do.
@utilitarian
There is no point for Jack to put his device as open source because this is not the type of device that will take advantage of open source in the sense that very very few people will ever be able to reproduce the motor given the high level of machining and precision required. This is not a 50 wind hand size TPU that could be made by anyone and everyone.
So you get it patented and then you license the manufacturing to suitable makers and you can then train the makers to do it the right way, the first time. You can then make the device and sell the device and start somewhere. The R&D on Jacks device must have been tremendous. How many builds, trials, changes, re-builds, time, money, time to attract some investors, you name it, he had to do it to get to where he is now.
His last post, I think if I read it correctly, was also part of his personal therapy to be open and not hold all that stress inside. Look you guys, if everyone here on this board would send 10$ or 20$ or more to Jack, his problem would be solved in a day. And as far as therapy goes, that would be one less stress to deal with in his life at the moment. So give first, ask questions later.
@Wattsup
Thank you.
Carl
Hello wattsup,
I want to thank you very much for your generous donation. As I said before, you will always be a part of this motor.
Thanks again.
Later,,,,,,,JackH
Hi
i hope my email will be answered soon Jack, also trying to help the right thing, if paypal worked today...
Thanx
Quote from: wattsup on May 31, 2008, 12:47:10 PM
@utilitarian
There is no point for Jack to put his device as open source because this is not the type of device that will take advantage of open source in the sense that very very few people will ever be able to reproduce the motor given the high level of machining and precision required. This is not a 50 wind hand size TPU that could be made by anyone and everyone.
I think we can make a version of his motor and help develop some performance characteristics from three modified single coil shaded pole motors linked together. Please check:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4679.msg99164.html#msg99164
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4679.msg99341.html#msg99341
Does anyone know of a larger shaded pole of this type? That motor was from a bathroom fan unit and a larger version would be needed to show real power.
Regards, Larry
One important thing to keep in mind is that the basic principle of the Hildenbrand motor is variable reluctance
http://www.srdrives.com/technology.shtml (http://www.srdrives.com/technology.shtml)
http://www.fleadh.co.uk/srm.htm (http://www.fleadh.co.uk/srm.htm)
(only Jack uses the great aid of magnets), and as one understands these type of motors it becomes apparent that a very tiny air gap is absolutely required for good performance. Especially when the attraction-interaction surface is not that big to start with. As I remember correctly Jack uses air gaps of about 0.1mm I myself am aiming more for 0.05 to 0.07.
Lindemann also has a forum about these 'attraction motors' http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/271-electric-motor-secrets.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/271-electric-motor-secrets.html)
Regards,
Steven
Quote from: Nali2001 on May 31, 2008, 04:53:19 PM
One important thing to keep in mind is that the basic principle of the Hildenbrand motor is variable reluctance
http://www.srdrives.com/technology.shtml (http://www.srdrives.com/technology.shtml)
http://www.fleadh.co.uk/srm.htm (http://www.fleadh.co.uk/srm.htm)
(only Jack uses the great aid of magnets), and as one understands these type of motors it becomes apparent that a very tiny air gap is absolutely required for good performance. Especially when the attraction-interaction surface is not that big to start with. As I remember correctly Jack uses air gaps of about 0.1mm I myself am aiming more for 0.05 to 0.07.
Lindemann also has a forum about these 'attraction motors' http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/271-electric-motor-secrets.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/271-electric-motor-secrets.html)
Regards,
Steven
hi
how did you proceed with design showed in this post
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2386.msg92147.html#msg92147
is this concept good enough <?
Thanx
Hi Aladinlamp,
It's getting there.
Well I believe this design is a good one. But it's 'problem' is has a high torque ripple since it is only a two (or one, depends how you look at it) valve design. So in a sense the stator 'throws' the rotor to the next attraction phase with noting in between. So that is why it is important to have overlapping attraction phases. Somewhat like Jacks big 3 valve machine. But building a 3 valve system is a whole different level on itself. especially with such high levels of air gap precision. But one of the beauty of 'my' design is that you can pop on or off the magnets on the fly whiling running to see what impact the magnets have.
Regards,
Steven
Quote from: Nali2001 on May 31, 2008, 05:55:50 PM
Hi Aladinlamp,
It's getting there.
Well I believe this design is a good one. But it's 'problem' is has a high torque ripple since it is only a two (or one, depends how you look at it) valve design. So in a sense the stator 'throws' the rotor to the next attraction phase with noting in between. So that is why it is important to have overlapping attraction phases. Somewhat like Jacks big 3 valve machine. But building a 3 valve system is a whole different level on itself. especially with such high levels of air gap precision. But one of the beauty of 'my' design is that you can pop on or off the magnets on the fly whiling running to see what impact the magnets have.
Regards,
Steven
1.How exactly the ripple influences performance of motor, material, rotor and their properties <?
2.What material you think is the best for rotor and stator flux sections( assuming from pictures, they are cut from same material) if price is not an issue ..?
Thanx
Hi Aladinlamp,
About1:
Well what you really want in any motor is that the torque produced is constant through the whole 360 degree cycle.
In for example my (test) model you only have torque when the rotor and stator line up. And between these 'attraction cycles' there is a huge area of 'no attraction action' so no torque, that means the gained momentum is all there is to get to he next attraction phase. In Jacks 3 valve motor (although I did never see the internal rotor) I presume that the each valve covers an rotor area of 120 degrees. So that the next valve goes into attraction when the previous valve has just finished an attraction phase. In that way there is a somewhat constant torque. And the more valves there are the better it gets. Like 6 valves, 9 valves. But it is all rpm dependent as well. At high rpm you won't notice a high torque ripple that much.
About2:
The best core material is a material which 'holds' the most magnetism at the desired frequency. The normal silicon steel transformer laminations is good enough. They are used in every electric engine and transformer. Plus they are much cheaper then 'superior' materials. There are some variations in these silicon steels, some have higher saturation levels and/or higher working frequencies than others, also there is the issue of steel grain alignment:
There are two main types of electrical steel: grain-oriented and non-oriented.
Grain-oriented electrical steel usually has a silicon level of 3% (Si:11Fe). It is processed in such a way that the optimum properties are developed in the rolling direction, due to a tight control (proposed by Norman P. Goss) of the crystal orientation relative to the sheet. Due to the special orientation, the magnetic flux density is increased by 30% in the coil rolling direction, although its magnetic saturation is decreased by 5%. It is used for the cores of high-efficiency transformers, electric motor and generators.
Non-oriented electrical steel usually has a silicon level of 2 to 3.5% and has similar magnetic properties in all directions, which makes it isotropic. It is less expensive and is used in applications where the direction of magnetic flux is changing, such as electric motors and generators. It is also used when efficiency is less important or when there is insufficient space to correctly orient components to take advantage of the anisotropic properties of grain-oriented electrical steel.
The steel in normal transformers and electric motors is nearly always 'Non-oriented'. The C cores http://www.alphacore.com/images/Cut-Core.JPG (http://www.alphacore.com/images/Cut-Core.JPG) I use as valves are 'Grain-oriented' and might be an advantage.
I get them here: http://www.alphacoredirect.com/index.html?lmd=39452.612164 (http://www.alphacoredirect.com/index.html?lmd=39452.612164)
If you really want to go wild and high speeds. Then one would use some tape wound nanocrystalline material like the grain aligned C cores from http://www.metglas.com/ (http://www.metglas.com/)
But price is a huge issue in this field so it is no option. But they are far superior over normal silicon steel laminations specially for high permeability at high frequencies. But like I said, normal silicon steel laminations is good enough for electric motors at this stage. And besides working with steel laminations is tough enough. Never mind that brittle corroding metglas. To sum up what one wants in these attraction motors is a big attraction-surface area and as tight as possible air gaps (keep terminal steel expansion and bearing wear in mind)
Regards,
Steven
Quote from: Nali2001 on May 31, 2008, 07:10:44 PM
Hi Aladinlamp,
About1:
Well what you really want in any motor is that the torque produced is constant through the whole 360 degree cycle.
In for example my (test) model you only have torque when the rotor and stator line up. And between these 'attraction cycles' there is a huge area of 'no attraction action' so no torque, that means the gained momentum is all there is to get to he next attraction phase. In Jacks 3 valve motor (although I did never see the internal rotor) I presume that the each valve covers an rotor area of 120 degrees. So that the next valve goes into attraction when the previous valve has just finished an attraction phase. In that way there is a somewhat constant torque. And the more valves there are the better it gets. Like 6 valves, 9 valves. But it is all rpm dependent as well. At high rpm you won't notice a high torque ripple that much.
About2:
The best core material is a material which 'holds' the most magnetism at the desired frequency. The normal silicon steel transformer laminations is good enough. They are used in every electric engine and transformer. Plus they are much cheaper then 'superior' materials. There are some variations in these silicon steels, some have higher saturation levels and/or higher working frequencies than others, also there is the issue of steel grain alignment:
There are two main types of electrical steel: grain-oriented and non-oriented.
Grain-oriented electrical steel usually has a silicon level of 3% (Si:11Fe). It is processed in such a way that the optimum properties are developed in the rolling direction, due to a tight control (proposed by Norman P. Goss) of the crystal orientation relative to the sheet. Due to the special orientation, the magnetic flux density is increased by 30% in the coil rolling direction, although its magnetic saturation is decreased by 5%. It is used for the cores of high-efficiency transformers, electric motor and generators.
Non-oriented electrical steel usually has a silicon level of 2 to 3.5% and has similar magnetic properties in all directions, which makes it isotropic. It is less expensive and is used in applications where the direction of magnetic flux is changing, such as electric motors and generators. It is also used when efficiency is less important or when there is insufficient space to correctly orient components to take advantage of the anisotropic properties of grain-oriented electrical steel.
The steel in normal transformers and electric motors is nearly always 'Non-oriented'. The C cores http://www.alphacore.com/images/Cut-Core.JPG (http://www.alphacore.com/images/Cut-Core.JPG) I use as valves are 'Grain-oriented' and might be an advantage.
I get them here: http://www.alphacoredirect.com/index.html?lmd=39452.612164 (http://www.alphacoredirect.com/index.html?lmd=39452.612164)
If you really want to go wild and high speeds. Then one would use some tape wound nanocrystalline material like the grain aligned C cores from http://www.metglas.com/ (http://www.metglas.com/)
But price is a huge issue in this field so it is no option. But they are far superior over normal silicon steel laminations specially for high permeability at high frequencies. But like I said, normal silicon steel laminations is good enough for electric motors at this stage. And besides working with steel laminations is tough enough. Never mind that brittle corroding metglas. To sum up what one wants in these attraction motors is a big attraction-surface area and as tight as possible air gaps (keep terminal steel expansion and bearing wear in mind)
Regards,
Steven
OK thanx for info
1.i see there many sizes of C-cores, you think bigger is better in this case, when it comes to sizing the machine?
2.Is there noticable benefit in performance, if you cut the section to the core for coil winding ? Why you cut it just from one side and not equaly from both sides?
3.Do you have experience with computer controlled triggering, swithing and pulsing ? When the rotor comes to the right position, i would like to trigger it by some opto switch and hall effect switch, but from this point everything will be PC controlled and monitored
So what can be the setup for this scenario ?_
Thanx
With this machine bigger (cores) is always better. But remember that the biggest they stock is still not as big (cross section wise) as Jacks valves. But when you have big interaction surfaces then the air gap becomes less and less an issue. I mean for a rc toy motor 0.1 is a big air gap but for a 500hp induction motor 0.1 is hyper small. This is probably one of the reasons why Jack reached o.u when he went big, like 2"x2" magnets (which are huge...) I only am able to use 20mmx20mm.
Now before you start spending like $100.00 a core remember that these are also made of laminates (only tape wound) and super care must be taken when machining since the lamination are only held together with insulation epoxy. And a mill will tip the thing apart with ease. And also the rounding out of the core 'end parts' or 'fingers' is tricky to say the least.
About the section out of the core where the coil goes.
1/2 of the core MUST be taken away. Jack knows why.
It is not that mystical to understand but kinda hard to put in words. You want the core section that the coil is wound on only to be as big as to be able to allow all the magnets magnetism to pass through. The idea is that it is a 'valve'. So when you magnetize that core section you saturate it and it becomes a blockade for the field of the magnet, and it has to find another route. In that way you send out the field of the coil and field of the magnet combined through the rotor. But you see if you don't cut out 1/2 of the core way you do two things wrong. First you need to magnetize way to much core then really needed and second you saturate the whole core with the coil So that the magnets magnetism has no room anymore in the core and might even be destroyed in the process. Keep this a rule. 1/2 of the core is for the coil 1/2 of the core is for the magnet. Combined they make up the lot and can comfortably work together.
The reason why I do not cut some away from both sides is because machining laminates fuses the machined lamination ends together and so 'shorts' out the laminations that would in a perfect world be totally isolated from each other to lower eddy current losses. So if you machine only one side you do less damage.
No I don't use computer timing. Just an opto and mosfet switching circuits and pwm for some fine tuning.
Steven
@Steven
Hi, How are the numbers for your motor input, output energy?
How to difficult is to make a 12V 70 Amper car alternator with the Hildenbrand or Flynn parallel path ?
Thanks.
Hi Elisha,
My unit is not finished yet, so I have no test data.
'How difficult it is' you ask?
Well for Jack it is probably not all that hard, only lots of work. If I had all the serous machines, materials and funds (which I don't have) I would attempt a big size machine myself since the 'Tech' from both Hildebrand and Flynn is not all that hyper difficult to grasp. But Jack is the only one who has lots of experience and working models, so it is a damn shame he is tied up right now, financely (however ya spell that) and health wise. Here we have a person in our mids who really goes hands on and is now unable to press forward. I myself don't even have my mini version finished. So I'm not really the one to speak anyway. But I would say this. If you have the machines (lathe and mill) and some experience with moderate precision works you can build a small version yourself and work from there. Or if you have the money you can maybe also get the lamination laser cut or something. A car alternator is indeed a good and cheap generator.
Regards,
Steven
Hello Steven,
Thought you might be intrested in what his rotor looks like...
By the way, it is quite heavy.
Quote from: casman1969 on June 02, 2008, 09:27:58 AM
Hello Steven,
Thought you might be intrested in what his rotor looks like...
By the way, it is quite heavy.
Hi
can you post all pictures you have in maximum resolution, or put it in single zip and upload somewhere:_?
thanx
Only If I get Jack's permission to do so.
Steven
On page 8 Jack gave permission to post all pictures. I have some and others have some. He's not concerned with posting as he knows the daunting task it would take to duplicat his workmanship.
Oh, and by the way, have you thought about sending him some monies????
Yes, I have taken up his cause and want to help. There is NOTHING in it for me other than seeing him realize his dream. And damn proud to do it!
Carl
Hello Steven,
You can post any pictures you want to.
And again thanks for your donation.
Later,,,,,,Jack
Hello Wattsup,
I want to thank you for your very generous donation to my motor cause.
Again Thank you very much
Later,,,,,JackH
Quote from: casman1969 on June 02, 2008, 12:15:04 PM
On page 8 Jack gave permission to post all pictures. I have some and others have some. He's not concerned with posting as he knows the daunting task it would take to duplicat his workmanship.
Oh, and by the way, have you thought about sending him some monies????
Yes, I have taken up his cause and want to help. There is NOTHING in it for me other than seeing him realize his dream. And damn proud to do it!
Carl
Hi
i've sent already few days ago, i would welcome pictures in exchange.
Here is a ZIP file with all I have:
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/HildenbrandPhotos.zip (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/HildenbrandPhotos.zip)
Quote from: Nali2001 on June 02, 2008, 03:40:07 PM
Here is a ZIP file with all I have:
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/HildenbrandPhotos.zip (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/HildenbrandPhotos.zip)
Excellent, if anybody has more, please upload.
@Nali2001
Great collection of photos. I can't add to that and those pics say it all.
looking for more people to step up to the plate....
Jack,
You da man!
Carl
@ Steve
Is not more easy and cheap to use the a service like http://www.emachineshop.com/
I don?t have any mechanical machines, and don?t want to have it.
Just be aware that Emachines does have a setup fee of $150 just to get started.
Then so much a piece. If you only want ten or so, not so good a deal. Hate their
software too.
On the flip side, the parts are "all" the same and to tight tolerance. If I decide to
replicate one of these, I will most likely use them and just have someone else do
the drawing. Not cad oriented. Still use my hand drafting tools.
thaelin
Well I'm not sure Emachine shop has transformer laminations.
Plus Jack big machine's valves are probably like 80mm wide so, that is if one would use thick laminations a total of 160 laminations a side, 320 for a complete valve, so thats 960 for the 3 valves. That is only the valves. The coil cores will also be 480 lamination. Plus the rotors also would be 480 laminations. But ya can obviously also build a smaller version. So lol lets hope they can guarantee a 0.1 mm airgap accuracy.
Steven
Here is my version.
Still not finished though.
(Ps. Stefan man, you gotta lift this 50k restriction... It simply is too small. Make it like 100>150kb. Nobody wants 320x200 stuff)
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/H/Hilden001.jpg (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/H/Hilden001.jpg)
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/H/ValveAttach.jpg (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/H/ValveAttach.jpg)
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/H/Valves.jpg (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/H/Valves.jpg)
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/H/BuildUp002.jpg (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/H/BuildUp002.jpg)
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/H/BuildUp001.jpg (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/H/BuildUp001.jpg)
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/H/MotorBack.jpg (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/H/MotorBack.jpg)
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/H/MotorBack2.jpg (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/H/MotorBack2.jpg)
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/H/MotorFront.jpg (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/H/MotorFront.jpg)
Steven
Hi Steven,
Good looking proto..,
Noticed your timing mechanism and was wondering how you plan to drive it? It occurs to me that Jacks' use of points takes full advantage of the HUGE BEMF he produces and would venture a guess that without it you'll get little to no torque. As Stephan suggests, carbon points on the commutator may well produce the desired effect.
Good luck and enjoy the adventure,
Carl
Hi Carl,
Thanks.
But what has Back emf (although you likely mean 'inductive collapse') to do with huge torque?
But anyway contact points can be tested later, although that way it is hard to control pulse duration.
Steven
@Steve
You don?t have to worry for the 50K limit for images, you can just continue to use your hosting of the images in another server in internet and use the image tag, the image tag button is in the editor of post, replay, look when mouse over say "Insert Image"
The image tag, are 2 tags, the initial tag and the end tag, between the tags you can put the http://
Look,
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.planet.nl%2F%7Esintt000%2FH%2FHilden001.jpg&hash=7143d32f2af6357d1000f2e19ce1053ccb3bc2cf)(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.planet.nl%2F%7Esintt000%2FH%2FValveAttach.jpg&hash=0cebc823c97d696da235c7556ee76e9a45a77832)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.planet.nl%2F%7Esintt000%2FH%2FValves.jpg&hash=c4b79f37dbba39e422cbee7c38a2f6e284c4c339)(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.planet.nl%2F%7Esintt000%2FH%2FBuildUp002.jpg&hash=0979fb3eb9f0dfefe1a5914a6ea67dfa8de9cd98)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.planet.nl%2F%7Esintt000%2FH%2FBuildUp001.jpg&hash=c3e623539e6c7d706111d1646065155c454041b3)(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.planet.nl%2F%7Esintt000%2FH%2FMotorBack.jpg&hash=ee4363349760a9aed82c37dc30710abf471e3d8d)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.planet.nl%2F%7Esintt000%2FH%2FMotorBack2.jpg&hash=5ee5650a035821f8f141651c316bff4e0326039c)(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.planet.nl%2F%7Esintt000%2FH%2FMotorFront.jpg&hash=25d92126ed13cd44cea02b4be34e135a42b6e150)
If you have problems with space in your another internet sever, just use the hotmail myspace photo album or similar from Yahoo or Google.
@ Steven
O.K., inductive coupling. Still have to have it for this motor to run properly. The collapsing field in this arrangement IS the power, not the initial pulse. My scope shots across the coil proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'm certain you'll find this out for yourself.
Nice build!
Best of luck,
Carl
Hello Tbird,
I gorgot to thank Tbird for a very genorus donation. I got some the other day and I simply forgot about Tbird,s
Thanks alot, A $500.00 doller donation. Thanks a bunch.
Thanks again,,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand
Hey Jack,
Keep the faith, lotta love out there for what you've accomplished. I'd also like to thank those of you who have answered the call and contributed. This is the way of our world and if we truly want to get this thing into production we'll have to continue to give our support.
Thank you Jack and thank you fellow contributors,
Carl
Hi all
If we are looking for more support, then the way is make a list of donors, with photo face and also the donation amount. of course with the permission of the donor.
I dont have any problem to appear in this list.
I will make a album with the photos, also i can receive the photo files in my email, Jack just need to make the list of donors.
What do you think Jack? Carl? Wattup? Tbird? Steve? Thaelin? aladinlamp?
@ Elisha
I'm game. Anything that furthers this cause.
Carl
hi all,
i didn't pitch in to sale myself. instead, we should be salesmen for jack. if you put anyones picture up, it should be jack's.
i can't think of a better place for my tax-rebate to go. this is probably the closest thing to "government funding" we will see.
tom
@Elisha
I am not one to flap my suspenders (geez I don't even have suspenders). People give because they can and not because they will want to be on a list. I don't know if this is a good idea. Every amount is important for Jack and having amounts shown on a list might be too intimidating for those who wish to make a donation regardless of the amount. The amount is not important, so if you make a list, I would recommend to just put the names as this will then be welcome to all. But this is only my opinion and it leave it to you to judge.
wattsup
AMEN!!!
tom
Ditto Wattup!
Carl
i dont see the point of such list
i think its way too early for publicity and PR issues of "donors"
the world can not care less about such list
if you want to donate, you dont need to see, what others did
This is good, the opinion of the majority is accepted, the amount is not put in the list. Just the name, pseudonymous and the photo.
The idea to make the list is to allow that the people who make the donations are receives of a recognition, is a scheme of positive reinforcing of an attitude, are many people who see this forum, some write many do not do it, but they have faith in the work of Jack, they can collaborate and also receive a small recognition for that reason.
There are three forms to be immortal, 1 having children, 2 leaving history and so we do while still alive and 3 through the religion.
With the recognition we are doing number 2.
I want to be remembered like one of the many people who helped so that the motor of Jack sees the light of the glory.
All you can use in my case is overunity nickname.Period.
I have an idea. Why don't we all just buy the patent from Jack? That way, Jack gets paid and the discovery gets open-sourced. How much for the patent, Jack?
The Patent IS Jacks' legacy and the only way he can see a benefit to his familly. So I am of the opinion we should wait till he secures that before making any offers to pruchase. To that end we MUST continue to send whatever you can to get this done. Not much time left before the IMF owns the world through oil so there is a sense of urgency here.
By helping Jack, we're helping ourselves.
Jack, hope you're feeling better these days,
Carl
Ok, my head hurts again!
I started to read this thread way back when it started. It was in a field I am not exactly proficient in so I didn't fully grasp what was going on. But now after skimming through it today I am impressed. I still don't fully understand it but I would like to know more. I have a few resources myself but I know how to get just about anything that would be needed to finish this thing if it truly merit it.
I admit I haven't read this whole thread and can't say if I believe it will work or not. I would greatly like to see a video of this motor that's been talked about.
Let me know what I can do to help. I able to invest time, knowledge and funding when/if appropriate.
I have a lot of question if I can ask?
A couple general questions I have are:
What is the current status of the prototype? Working, needing parts, complete but not working, etc...
Estimated cost of completion?
What are your short term (1-3month) and long term(3month to 1 year) goals?
Do you live in the US and if so what state? Would you allow me to visit?
I have worked with a great patent attorney in my town and it doesn't take that long to get a patent. Plus I would recommend not worrying about that until it is fully working and documented.
Also, a couple notes about patents: 1) A patent is only as good as the amount of money you spend to make it. 2) A patent is also only as good as the mount of money you have to defend it. Large companies with more money can drive you into the ground even if you have a totally original idea and have it working and patented. Its just how the system works.
All you really need is documentation, a working prototype and a patent pending then take it to the media. You will receive more control over your idea by letting the world know you developed it before anyone else. Once again when you have a working prototype it will not take any time to get a patent. This 5-10 year stuff is not necessarily accurate. In some cases it may be but for something like this it shouldn't take 6 months to a year. (With enough money).
Again, let me know what I can do to help.
Tim
@nwman
If you can, just start by helping Jack to get it patented.
@all
I occurs to me that while Jack is getting all this sorted out, it does not stop us here to investigate other avenues.
I am particularly inclined to think the motor does not really need a rotor. If the mag field can be controlled in the manner it is being controlled, or shifted, just put the valves inside a generator stator with a new type of orientation and pulse the valve to shift a field over the stator and produce juice without turning a rotor.
Here is a link to a thread that has recently been started and may provide more information on what I am thinking may be possible.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4831.msg101674.html#msg101674
@nwman
Jack has several working prototypes and if seeing is believing,then I believe he has it. He will readily acknowledge the need for further refinements but it's REAL, I've seen it and it Works. Most of the thread has had to do with building a controller for his motor and it has driven Jack bananas because he already has a working prototype and the ONLY thing left to do is to get the final output measurements of power.
When Jack is ready and able we WILL do this. Video doesn't do much justice here. I took some but all that is rather moot at this point. Beautifull workmanship, well thought out design and eagerness for verification are what this is about.
Right now, all any of us can do is send whatever you can to help the ONLY one who has a working prototype with potential for even greater output.
Jack, please get better! They don't know it yet but I do..., we need you and we need you healthy.
Carl
@Wattsup
Right on! That is the one aspect we can all get our heads arround. It's also the one thing that has been such a distraction for Jack.
He's already done all that Flynn type research and made the flux gates. Anyone can do that (with the proper machining skills and dare I say it, money. Proof of concept is done. If one would rather go down the avenue of working off the collapsing fields and harnessing that, then I say go for it but remember this. The whole purpose of his gate is to provide mechanical enegy and the few attempts at harnessing that energy in an electrical form is going to prove problematic. I too was caught up in that aspect and my scope shots make me want to travel this road as well but I will wait patiently until the day I can get a Dyno on his motor.
Thanks for the info everyone. I would not deny that he has a working motor using the composite magnets but with out properly testing it there could be other explanations for the gain. Like one for example The configuration is merely making the electromagnet more efficient but still no gain? Even if it is "just' more efficient he is a rich man.
I hold my judgement about it until his motor turns a generator which can in turn power the motor and produce excess energy. I have seen many designs that seemed undeniable and only needed one small thing but ended up not working. Its the only way to keep myself sane is to not assume anything, but maybe hope.
Another questions I have is if he has a working prototype (from what I understand a 1/2 horse power) then why couldn't he just go down to the store and buy a small gas 1/2 horse generator and pull the gas motor out and hook up his motor. It seems, if what I understand to be true, that his motor should make almost twice the power it needs to run. Simply put some kind of resistor/converter setup (as needed) on the power out put and plug his motor in. If I could come see it work in person I would fly there next week and buy the generator myself.
Tim
Tim,
Your thoughts have already been echoed here. I am just waiting for his health to improve to do just that. As for the 1/2 HP generator, do you have or know of a source for it. Closest I've found is a Honda 1KW portable gen. Can probably find it or an equuivalent on E-Bay and trust me, I'll have one when he allows me to return. I would prefer something just a little smaller, say 500W as it would be a better match and have a better chance for successfully closing the loop. Also keep in mind that he's developing that HP on the geared down shaft so whatever gen set you use will have to produce between 150 and 200 watts @ 450 to 500 RPM. That is why the Dyno test might be a better choice. At least it should be the first test.
Carl
Quote from: wattsup on June 10, 2008, 09:19:21 AM
@nwman
If you can, just start by helping Jack to get it patented.
@all
I occurs to me that while Jack is getting all this sorted out, it does not stop us here to investigate other avenues.
I am particularly inclined to think the motor does not really need a rotor. If the mag field can be controlled in the manner it is being controlled, or shifted, just put the valves inside a generator stator with a new type of orientation and pulse the valve to shift a field over the stator and produce juice without turning a rotor.
Here is a link to a thread that has recently been started and may provide more information on what I am thinking may be possible.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4831.msg101674.html#msg101674
@wattsup,
I was thinking along the same lines as you. Could you not just take Steve's (Nali2001) setup that he showed back on page 8
http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/MagnetExtraPower.wmv
And wrap a coil around the other U shaped piece. Then attach a meter to the coil and it should show more voltage coming out then whats going in. I'm not an electrical guy at all but I think that should work?
@Carl,
Thanks for your patients with me. I know it get annoying when the same idea come up over and over again. I'm just trying to get caught up to speed. So far I think its a brilliant idea and I want to be a part of it if I can. I'll take look around and see what I can find for a generator. So, you have a portable Dyno? Do you live in the same state as Jack? What State is he in?
I'm going to keep trying and read through the thread.
Tim
Hi all just a drop in some thoughts and observations.
Building a 'transformer' or solid state generator, just by adding coils to the thing seen in http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/MagnetExtraPower.wmv (http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/MagnetExtraPower.wmv) absolutely does not work. I have been at that concept long before I was making the Hildenbrand replication. There a lot of things that prevent it from working. The first problem (and I'm sure a lot of you would not see it as a problem, although it is, trust me) is building an efficient dc transformer, Since that is what it would be in this case a 'permanent magnet assisted dc square wave transformer' But if you test these things your first problem is that in between the dc pulse cycles the core needs to 'reset' its saturation level (get rid of all magnetism) if you don't, your next dc input will be useless since the core is still saturated and so will not induce an field change and starts drawing big amps, and without a field change there is no output. But how you do that? How do you get a core to go to a 'zero magnetism' state between each dc pulse? In a normal ac transformer it does not matter since the next input cycle is of reverse polarity and so will forcefully flip the magnetic orientation and so induce a true field change - hence there is a good output. But in this case we are talking dc and so you bombard the core each time with the same polarity and so unless the core 'resets' its magnetism on its own you won't have a working (that is efficient) system. In my tests I have found that it can not be done with normal transformers, the only cores that might be up to the task are grain aligned core, or more precisely the C shaped cores I use. But there is a lot more to it besides this issue alone. This is as far as I ever came, and only with these cores I use. The circuit is also important since there are certain (important) things that must, and must not be done (and no it's not o.u by far) http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/DcMagnetTransformer.wmv (http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/DcMagnetTransformer.wmv)
Here is and old vid showing why normal transformer steel does not work for dc transformers (that is to a usable extend) http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/CoreTests.wmv (http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/CoreTests.wmv)
Regards,
Steven
Hello All,
Well the transformer is not a good way to go. I worked with transformers for a couple years, using grain oriented and none grain orented steel. The only way I could get it to be stable is by using an old DC radio vibrator(car-tube type) and I had to run it very slow.
Well I think I will come to my sences in about three weeks and let casman1969 come up in a few weeks and test this motor I have. I would rathure build a radial motor(2 " magnets) with two valves energizing at the same time, and the valves running on about 50 vdc. I think that would be a test and a half, the other radial engine(1 " magnets) I have build purty good power on one hundred watts.
Well I am also going to build a car to put this new radial engine in. I allready have the motorcycle weels and all the bearings to put it togather. All I need is the steel to build the chasie. Any one wants to help with this project, I will sale a share in the car for $5000.00.
Or if you just want to donait, I will keep trake of everybody that donates and include the in on the car. I really think you need to prove an engine like this or no body will beleive in you. Thats the trouble I have had in the past. Ohyea, anybody that wants to come to my shop is very welcome to come as long as they make an apointment.
I go for a Doctor visit next week and I think I am feeling purty good, and I think I got rid of this ALS.
Later,,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand
Quote from: casman1969 on June 10, 2008, 03:43:36 PM
As for the 1/2 HP generator, do you have or know of a source for it.
You can make a 1/2 HP generator, using the axial flux design found at http://www.otherpower.com
hi all,
testing should be very easy. turn a pm alt with motor, charge a battery or cap bank (stephan or honk can give details), and tap power form battery (or caps) for motor to run and some other load (lights, etc.).
small batteries can give voltage needed, but not much run time. if ou, it will just keep running and running and running....
.
ready to go pm alt for $215 + shipping here...
http://www.mikeswindmillshop.com/funstuff.html
belt drive, friction drive or direct drive, up to you.
tom
Hi Jack,
Good to hear you are feeling better these days.
But I want to speak my mind here or a bit, so please keep in mind that this all supportive and I only say this because I want to help you.
Not too long ago you said you were having money problems and could no go on with the current projects. And now you are talking about building two new engines and a car. Now I have no insight in your current financial situation but I don't know if this is all that smart at this point. I understand you want the world to show a practical application for your motor, but also keep in mind that, how are you going to show/demonstrate overunity effects on a car? Plus as I understand your big motor right now outputs 0.5hp. Well I'm wondering what size motor are you planning for the car, I mean a car or buggy would require at least 2hp.
What would be a good next step in my opinion is to take your best and biggest system you have now, and put a car alternator on it. I would suggest you go your local car repair shop and get yourself a second hand $40 car alternator. http://www.innerauto.com/images/partImages/alternator2.jpg (http://www.innerauto.com/images/partImages/alternator2.jpg) These things cost nothing, and most of them can easily put out 12v 60amp They come with regulator build in and put out a convenient 12v. I mean man this is a great way to proof your motors. If you run your motor at 200watt and the car alternator puts out 201watt then it is all proven and done. And that at minimal cost, plus you work with motors you have now.
I know it is all up to you, but I really suggest you go the alternator way, especially when your goal is to make people believe you. A running car won't tell anything. 'Ok it runs but how efficient?' they will say. You will have to take the thing to a car torque/dynomometer test bank, so that is all but convenient.
Now the following might sound extra harsh but it is not meant in a doubtful or damaging way.
I don't know what test you really have done, but too me it seems wise you start getting real measurements from your motors. You see this field is 'hard to believe' for regular science, and so when Jack comes along saying 'hey I have a overunity system' their first reaction is 'yeah right'. This is where real output test data comes in, also known as proof. Now keep in mind that trying to stop a rotor with a cloth by hand, will not count as proof. What you need are 'numbers'. Now I understand that you have no hyper accurate official certified dynomometer test bank in your garage. But this is where the generator comes in. If your car alternator/generator can put out 1 watt more, then it takes to run the motor then you have impressive motor performance that will be more believable. Don't ask for university's to please come test your system since they, first- don't believe you upfront. Second- don't have the time. Third- They are not interested enough. And four- All the previous 3 points combined. At this point you have working systems so I would suggest you right now go for means of testing their output. Take pictures, make movies running various loads, write it all down. I know it might sound dull and you would rather be 'machining stuff' but it is part (and a damn important part as well ) of the development process.
So to sum it all up:
'Get a alternator and start testing / logging output'
Hope you understood my point.
Kind regards and best of health!
Steven
Just so we're on the same page let's keep a couple of things in mind...
Jacks' motor runs on 150V @ +/- 75 AMPS no load and > 1AMP with load.
This would not be condusive to using batteries for now.
The PM Alternator could easily be attached with a pulley arrangement (5/8" shaft) and a load applied and measured. I like that idea but still lean towards the Dyno for one reason. Frictional losses.
Those losses would also occur in a generator hence the need for a small one, say 500Watt.
If I can locate one that small I'll be bringing it.
In any case, the next trip will be conclusive and with dingbats assistance we will put to rest the efficiency question.
Jack, good luck with the Doctors, I pray for a speedy recovery.
Carl
Quote from: casman1969 on June 11, 2008, 11:16:40 AM
...
Jacks' motor runs on 150V @ +/- 75 AMPS no load and > 1AMP with load.
Hi Carl,
I assume you meant 0.75 Amps for the no load case, right?
Thanks, Gyula
oops...
you are correct sir, that would be 0.75A.
Carl
Hi Jack
Have you measured strength of the magnets you are using in your motor <? Did they change somehow overtime <?
Can you post exact magnet strength measurements<?
Thanx
Hello aladinlamp,
Well the motor still runs at the same RPM as it did to start with. So the magnets are good.
Later,,,,,JackH
Hello Steven,
Well; I halft to disagree with you. When we put the dino on this motor, whose to say I will beleive in Carl, or dingbat. They are no different than me, and nobody beleives in me. Just two more people telling the truth about this motor and no body beleives in them either.
And another thing. If I put a generator on this motor and it self runs. Somebody would just beleive that I had a battery hook to it somehow in in secret, under the table. There will always be none beleivers. And I'm am just about to give up on this motor and move on to something happie in my life. I am an old man about to dye, why would I tell a lie, I want to go to heven, and telling a lie is no way to get there.
There is no better way to build a car and say travel 300 miles on a charge. That's the profe.
Later,,,,,JackH
Hello Jack,
Yes it is true that a 'one time only' written dynotest report is only as valid as one wants to believe the numbers. That is why I and others recommend the generator. So you can run the test every time you are asked to back up your statements and such. There is not much to deny for doubtful scientist when they see for example 100 watt excess power. As for a hidden battery, yeah well I don't know, put the thing on a (plexi)glas table or something. Or let the disbelieving crowd search the room for battery's for an hour before starting the demo.
And the 300 miles on a charge, what are you going to say to the disbeliever? 'step in, lets go for a 300 mile ride' and after that calculate how much joule there was in the battery, and how far that would have taken you with a conventional electro motor at such and such wind drag. Seems like the hard way to go when you ask me. Plus what are the law regulation in the USA for such a thing? Is one allowed to self make a vehicle and take it on the road? You don't want the thing confiscated at first test drive.
I understand your situation as best as I am able to, so these are all suggestions as what I would have done. Yes this a tough field with a big shockwave of disbelieve and disappointments following us all the time. But what a thing it would be if only one of us is ever going to 'get it done for all to benefit from' That is in my opinion the striving force of most of us here. Gotta respect everyone who even tries, so I do.
Thanks,
Steven
@Jack
The car could have hidden batteries even more then a table top set-up. That's what people will think also. Listen, I think this test will prove to us, not the world. The world does not even have to know until it is patented but by then, the motor will be ready.
As for hapiness, you have worked so hard for this, and there are guys here that only want this to work both because they want to see you succeed in this and also because the world needs it and fast. Don't give up now.
@guys @guys @guys
I think you should back up a bit. I had prepared a post at home but forgot to post it before I left this morning. Typical of me. I'll post the other parts when I get home but here is a general rundown.
The question of alternator. Forget it, it will not work. During the last several years I have done tests on all sorts of drives, gears and generator schemes. I know for a fact that Jacks motor will not turn an alternator to produces 12 volts at 60 amps. It is just impossible. The alternator will seize right up before you get to even 10 amps. Also there is a question of minimal RPM requirements, field excitation voltage, mounting of the alternator, alt to motor coupling and alignment problems, and too much more. Plus if you use the belt drive, you just lost 20% right there.
First of all, consider that an alternator is the most inneffecient form of power production possible. We see 12 volts and 60 amps and think hey, 720 watts, that's less than one HP. You won't even be able to get this with 3 horse power. A car alternator does not have to be efficient. It is run in a car that has at least 150 horsepower and all it is doing is topping off the battery. It will never be required to produce 60 amps output, never. And if it did, you will know about it with your higher gas bills. lol
Now consider a small residential gas generator that has a 2hp gas engine, and has to produce 1000 watts. Plus consider that the 1000 watts will be required in a various forms from running drills, compressors, to heavier home demands, etc. Now the generator/gas engines have to be the most effecient possible otherwise it would not be able to produce 1000 watts or it would require a higher hp engine. And that would bring up the price and be very bad for sales. So the yare more efficient.
What you need is a generator with the highest watts production at the lowest rpm possible for Jacks motor to show OU. Anything else will not work. But first you have to have an idea on the torque available versus the rpm. The more torque, the rpm goes down, the more rpm, the torque goes down. But let's say you had 500 rpm. Let's say you wanted to produce 300 watts to show beyond a doubt that you are making OU. Now if you had to choose between a 300 watts-500 rpm generator and a 1000 wattt-500 rpm generator, which one is the best choice. WRONG (assuming you chose the first one. lol) You are better off with the second choice because as soon as that first generator reaches it's maximum production it will also reach it's maximum drag and that's where you will lose. With the second choice, you would be drawing only 300 watts but the generator would not even feel it nor would it create much drag. Generators and alternators are like stubborn donkeys. Move will y'a.
For the input power, use one 120 volts ac line supplying two 110vac-75vac transformers, both outputs rectified then combined. This way all you do is measure voltage and amperage at the main 120 volts to get the feed watts.
For the output load, I would use a bank of 50 watt bulbs (not 100 watt bulbs) and five 10 watt bulbs so you can get up to the 10 watts precision. If you think of running a 300 watts output, maybe consider going up to 500 watts on the load side meaning nine 50 watt bulbs and five 10 watt bulbs. This way you will be able to better match the load, hence adjust the generator drag according to the nearest maximum torque and rpm available from Jacks motor. Then just measure the voltage and amperage on the load.
The more flexibility you have on the load side, the better match you will have for the drive motor, otherwise I am afraid that you will go to Jacks house and come back with your results as inconslusive, and that would be worst then not doing a test at all.
The only other sticky point is to know in advance the shaft height and diameter of Jacks motor and make sure the generator will not be either to high or too low so get the required spacers in advance and make sure the couplings to match the shafts together are in hand.
That's about it. Too bad I'm in Canada, kinda far, otherwie I would have liked to go also.
@ Jack
Hey Buddy. We all love you man. Steven said it well. I support you and your idea and want to see it happen. You do have to be cautious when posting on a forum like this because we are a bunch of hungry sharks and if you feed us just a little we start to drools and want more... scratch that..... need more. When it come to trusting anyone on this kind of site its really hard because we have all been fooled before and we don't know who anyone is. If we can "talk" to someone and even meet them it does a long way to establish credibility. I'll take you at your word but I wouldn't expect anyone to blindly fallow anyone. It take baby steps and a little risk on every ones' part.
In regards to believing in video taped tests; its true they can be faked but with a well thought out test and documentation it makes it hard to refute. Like it was mentioned a little bit ago that if you ran the whole test on a plexi table that would help. Also, keeping everything in one uncut video. If possible disassemble it to show the parts and reassemble it and run the tests all on camera. There are a lot of things that can be done but I wont list them here. In your case I think we can trust your word and all we want to see is
1) Your motor running
2) a Dyno or alternator attached to it and
3) either positive readouts from the dyno or a clear shot of the alternator looped back running the machine without a battery or plug-in in sight.
This is only the first step too. Your right in thinking we may not totally believe you after seeing this because its too good to be true. However this is where you invite us to come in person (at our own expense) and make first hand accounts of it. But really if it works you really have no problems. Really!
Just a question, but why would your car only get 300 miles? Should it not run forever*?
If your "... just about to give up on this motor and move on to something happy in my life" then I would be more then happy to take it over and see it through and pay you the money.
Money is not the issue if I can see it in person closing the loop. I may not personally have unlimited funds but I know how to get it. If a simple alternator test will work then do it and the rest will fall into place in time. I want to see this work probably more then you do. I sometimes don't sleep at nights thinking of things like this.
@Steven,
I would even just love to build the setup you showed in your video. I'm not sure if your keeping it secret but I wouldn't mind seeing a materials list and specifications on just the valve setup?
One test I have been wanting to run since I saw your video is to suspend your your electromagnet and attach the other core piece to it and turn it on. Then add weights to it and see how much is needed to pull it apart.
Then, take the permanent magnets and cross member piece and run the same test just with the magnets.
After that then set up the complete valve assembly suspended int he air and run the test and see how much it can hold and how it compares to the other tests.
Though this isn't conclusive it would be interesting to see if the valve would hold the exact same amount as the two first test combined. If it was I would lean to conclude it is turning the permanent magnet on and off and not just increasing the efficiency of the electromagnet. Which again would be still an amazing feet from what I know. Just a thought.
Tim
Quote from: nwman on June 11, 2008, 04:07:27 PM
@Steven,
I would even just love to build the setup you showed in your video. I'm not sure if your keeping it secret but I wouldn't mind seeing a materials list and specifications on just the valve setup?
Tim
No problem but I'm not totally sure which video you refer to? The static 'holding force' test? http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/MagnetExtraPower.wmv (http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/MagnetExtraPower.wmv)
(You need to machine the core so I hope you have a mill)
Let me know.
Steven
Hello Steven and All,
Well I think building a car would get it done. This would hit the news real hard. Building a free energy motor will get you know where, nobody will ever beleive it. Even if 10 scientist saw it they would not beleive it, thay would beleive in there laws.
There is no problem getting a tital for a home built car, I have built severial hot rods in the past. All you need to do is take them to the Stait hiway corrage an have them safty checkd, if they pass they will wright you a leflet to get a tital with.
A car generator will not work!!!!
I'll build the car. If nobody wants to help me them thats OK.
I have preached for a year now for someone to come to check this motor and nobody has ever done it. You know why,,,No no wan beleives me. I am done with this message board. I have had nothing but harteack on this message board.
Thanks for everybody that donated,,I have spent it on my health,,,, BUT DO NOT DONATE ANYMORE.
Goby all,,,,,,,,,,JackH
Quote from: JackH on June 11, 2008, 06:19:20 PM
Hello Steven and All,
Well I think building a car would get it done. This would hit the news real hard. Building a free energy motor will get you know where, nobody will ever beleive it. Even if 10 scientist saw it they would not beleive it, thay would beleive in there laws.
There is no problem getting a tital for a home built car, I have built severial hot rods in the past. All you need to do is take them to the Stait hiway corrage an have them safty checkd, if they pass they will wright you a leflet to get a tital with.
A car generator will not work!!!!
I'll build the car. If nobody wants to help me them thats OK.
I have preached for a year now for someone to come to check this motor and nobody has ever done it. You know why,,,No no wan beleives me. I am done with this message board. I have had nothing but harteack on this message board.
Thanks for everybody that donated,,I have spent it on my health,,,, BUT DO NOT DONATE ANYMORE.
Goby all,,,,,,,,,,JackH
Nothing but heartache? Honk built you more than one controller out of the goodness of his heart. People have given you money. People are offering to come over with expensive equipment and test your motor at no charge to you. I don't get it.
hi all,
must be the meds talking. let's see how he feels tomorrow.
tom
Hello utilitarian,
Honk wasted 8 months of my life working on a controller that did not work. The only one that has come over with expensive equipment is Carl and dingbat. NO ONE ELSE. Yea you dont get it because you havent been call a liyer for a year. Stick it up your A++.
Good luck with your forgotten projects that do not run.
Later,,,,,JackH
Quote from: JackH on June 11, 2008, 02:02:39 PM
Well; I halft to disagree with you. When we put the dino on this motor, whose to say I will beleive in Carl, or dingbat. They are no different than me, and nobody beleives in me. Just two more people telling the truth about this motor and no body beleives in them either.
Jack, the difference is that you would have independent verification.
QuoteAnd another thing. If I put a generator on this motor and it self runs. Somebody would just beleive that I had a battery hook to it somehow in in secret, under the table. There will always be none beleivers.
Then do the tests with numbers for the believers (in overunity), so they'll know for sure that your motor is overunity.
QuoteThere is no better way to build a car and say travel 300 miles on a charge. That's the profe.
From the sounds of it, you don't have the money to pay off your patent lawyer, let alone money to build a car.
It would cost you only some tim - NO MONEY - to stick a generator+load on the output end of one of your motors. I'm sure that one of the guys that wants to visit you, would bring a generator/alternator, V-belt of the right size, and V-pulleys sized to convert the RPM of your motor to the RPM that the generator/alternator requires, plus a load of some sort (bank of lights?).
Quote from: JackH on June 11, 2008, 08:28:45 PM
Honk wasted 8 months of my life working on a controller that did not work.
No, he did not waste 8 months of your life.
You spent a few hours here and there, spread out over 8 months, learning (and helping Honk learn) that conventional electronic controller designs won't work with your motor.
Quote
The only one that has come over with expensive equipment is Carl and dingbat. NO ONE ELSE.
No one else on this forum is near enough to you to visit.
Quote
Yea you dont get it because you havent been call a liyer for a year. Stick it up your A++.
No one here is calling you a liar.
I've seen a number of people post on this forum, thinking that they had something, only to find out that they were honestly mistaken.
People are asking for measurements to help ensure that this isn't what is happening with your motors.
Can we cut too the chase, I have been watching this latest feeding frenzie disappear down one dead end after another on how to try and get OU with this or that generator, and how too do it. Why his motor causes massive back emf that fries every controller that he put on. I personally don't give a fuck if his motor is OU or not, what I want to know is does it produce more mechanical output for a given electrical input than for a conventional electrical motor with the same electrical input. If it does and I honestly believe it does, where do we go from here. Let us say that it produces twice the mechanical output. I don't know if Jack got the result from those charlatans that came and did a dyno test a few weeks ago it would be nice to know but it doesn't really matter. What would this mean? It would simply mean that an Electric car would go twice as far as they do today on cheap lead batteries, instead of 40 miles, 80 miles. Now if I was a motor manufacturer, I wouldn't give a dam if a scientist came up too me and said that it couldn't be done, because you can't get more mechanical energy out than 1 hp, for every 746 watts of electrical energy put in. My criteria would be, does it work, does it give me a market advantage.
Now may I make a humble suggestion, now one of you here on this forum I forget who at the moment is going to Jacks place to perform a dyno test. We don't have to know the results, but if they show that it produces more mechanical output than it theoretical should that Jack and his friend contact these organizations started by Steven Greer.
http://www.aero2012.com/en/index.html
http://www.theorionproject.org/en/
I am certain Jack's motor would interest them, it certainly comes under paragraph 3 in the inventors guide on the A.E.R.O site. Now could we have less talk about the problems of getting Jacks motor to work in OU mode and concentrate on Jack getting his brilliant invention to market so that he can enjoy a more comfortable old age and the rest of us can enjoy the fruits of his labors, all the rest are engineering problems that are best suited to a well financed team of engineers getting from a prototype stage to a marketable product.
Jack I am deeply sorry to hear about your illness and I have more than a little understanding of what it must be like on hearing such news. Your mind goes into freewheel and depression hits you like a hammer, but do you really think that it is such a good use of your time to try and build a car, its proof of concept, which you have already done, not proof of usability that is important.
Deep Regards
Yorkshire Miner.
Hi Jack.
The idea to make the car and to put the motor inside is brilliant, I support to you. A lot of press and you Jack wil be the real american HERO.
The idea of the alternator is bad.
But first the first.
Invite to wattsup, casman1969 and nwman to make a 2 day test, with the dyno and multiple oscilloscope. With this test, then will arrive the second wave of donations with no obligations to Jack.
Then with the oscilloscope measuring data, go and contract to make the electronic controller, then your motor will have and optimized power output, Great. Honk fail to make the controller cos don?t have a running test data.
Then make the buggy car and prepare for be a HERO.
Jack be carefull with your health, to return to expose to your machine shop can make a relapse, uses gloves, mask, etc.
Dear Jack,
Opinions are like assholes.., just take what you want from these posts and leave the rest.
As I've often stated, you've got it, we need it!
You've already attained hero status for me and quite a few others. You just don't beleive it yet.
That's O.K. This is YOUR baby and no one elses and you are free to do whatever you want, whenever you want. Dream, build, play and most importantly don't forget the sunscreen. It's your life so enjoy it.
As George Carlan once said: " Their are only two rules in life.., don't sweat the small stuff and..,
it's ALL small stuff."
We are here for you and support your efforts. Whatever you like to do for fun, do it, take your mind off all this stuff till you want to return to it. I think of you as a freind and that's more important than anything previously posted.
Play Jack, it will clear your head.
Sincerely,
Carl
Hello Carl and Elisha,
Thank you very much for your understanding.
Later,,,,,JackH
Hi Jack
The boxofsparks gang has always believed that you have winner !!
Thats why we sent the wire etc.
I will also add to the paypal $$. I've been out of the loop a while.
Now back in and working on the magnet concept I shared with you.
Glad to hear you are feeling better !!!!! I will stay in touch.
Believing in yourself is the most important.
Jon
Hello Jon,
I want to thank you very much for your generous donation.
Thanks again.
Later,,,,,Jack
Hello FredWalter,
You do not even deserve an answer.
Later,,,,,JackH
Hello Yorkshire Miner,
This motor generates electricity and add it to the input. Just ask digbat. I tryed to explain that to honk, but he would not listen to a thing I said. Even when he got the scope reading from dingbat he did not beleive it. And then he just guit on the controller, left me hangin.
Later,,,,,JackH
Quote from: JackH on June 14, 2008, 01:47:38 PM
Hello Yorkshire Miner,
This motor generates electricity and add it to the input. Just ask digbat. I tryed to explain that to honk, but he would not listen to a thing I said. Even when he got the scope reading from dingbat he did not beleive it. And then he just guit on the controller, left me hangin.
Later,,,,,JackH
I'm sorry to hear what you are saying about me. This is not true. I did several controllers to help you out.
And it was initially your own suggestion to let the OSU people build you a controller instead of me, when the last controller burned.
Your letter to me on februari 8 this year. Your own words to quit on the controller quoted in red.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Henrik,
Well BEMF is caused when you turn the power of if a coil, This is NOT BEMF, when the coil turns off, and the permanent magnets flux lines need to go back through the coil core,
when they do that they cut the coil wires generating electrisity. When the coil turns on, it forces the permanent magnets flux lines to go out of the coil core, cutting the coil
wires again, this is what is creating the 324 volts that is added to the input. If you do not understand that you might as well quit on the controller, it never will work.
Thanks for your help, it has been greatly appreciated, but I think maybe OSU may have a greater understanding of the motor and more than one engineer to dedicate time to the motor.
And I'll have OSU build the controller as time is running out on my end of things here due to my failing health. Once again, thanks for your time and work on this matter.
Later,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In my next letter I told you I would like to give it one last try.
But the controller was fried beyond repair beacuse you had replaced the fuse by a piece of metal and I felt I did not have the time at the moment to build you another controller from scratch.
You never replied on my last letter to you, that I had to postpone the controller. I felt this was the right decision as you were going to have another one built by the OSU people.
I was simply not needed any more.
Regarding you blaming me for not listening to you about the voltage feedback. Of course I listened. Every word. But you never had any scope pictures to show me on this.
I never knew what polarity the other voltage feedback you talked about was having. I just tried my best without any real data feedback.
I first saw the scope pictures "drawings" made by dingbat after the last controller was burned.
If I had continued to help you I'm 100% sure I could get it to work, now that I knew it was more than BEMF I had to handle. The controller just needed a blocking diode.
Sorry if you feel abandoned. But if you had replied to me on the last letter about postponing the controller, I might have continued to help you out.
/Honk
Hi Jack I'm testing the replication right now also with contact points.
If you are willing, would you please describe how you have set this up on your system?
I mean electricly, how did you arrange the cap and perhaps diode to suppress the 'sea of fire'?
Many thanks,
Steven
Hello Steven,
Well I just added , I think 9 feed through caps(25 to 30uf) to the points and then to ground, there was no diode. The positive I hook to the coil and the other end of the coil was hooked to the points. The negitive to ground.
If you need a drawing, just tell me and I can draw one and post it here.
Later,,,,,Jack
Hello Honk,
Honk if you would have listen to me when I told you whate the motor was doing, the controller would have worked. But no you had your own ideas on how the motor worked and you would not listen to me at all. You refused to beleive that the motor was generating electricity. So I had had enought, sending this thing back and forth across the sea was costing to much money. Also, I had trouble with you not beleiving me when I told you how the motor was running.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Well, if you say so, or believe this was how things turned out.
It was only in the first controller where I tried some of my own ideas.
The second one worked fine until the motor reved up to much before it broke down.
So I guess I was not to far away from the goal.....
I just wish you could have gotten the measurements somewhat earlier instead of the late end.
Then I could have seen how to design the controller perfectly for your motor. Simply a blocking diode.....
But I wish you the best luck with the OSU people that was going to build you a controller. ;)
These smart people should design it like a breeze.
Quote from: JackH on June 14, 2008, 05:48:39 PM
Hello Honk,
Honk if you would have listen to me when I told you whate the motor was doing, the controller would have worked. But no you had your own ideas on how the motor worked and you would not listen to me at all. You refused to beleive that the motor was generating electricity. So I had had enought, sending this thing back and forth across the sea was costing to much money. Also, I had trouble with you not beleiving me when I told you how the motor was running.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Hello Honk,
Well OSU is not going to build the controller, They turned out to be none beleivers. I just thought that you not beleiving what I said about the motor, you will never get it right. I told you about the motor generating electricity early on.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Dear Jack,
Would you mind giving another chance to Honk? Once a blocking diode was missing the success can be real close now? Of course maybe Honk is still busy with his own jobs...
Wishing you Good health,
Gyula
Hello Gyula,
Well if Honk would listen to me about when I tell him about motor, but I dought it if Honk wants to continue.
Later,,,,,,JackH
@Honk
Is up to you, please make another controller for Jack.
Honk, do you make a very good controller the last time, but you dont know the last time the oscilloscope graphic of the motor running.
Now you know the running voltage of the motor, please make the controller. Left the optimizations for latter.
Hey honk
Very Very impressive on the controller....I may get flamed but having spent alot of time in solid state and pwm/vfd's my concern is the magnitude of the "Spikes" they kill even the most over built SS devices.
If this one does not fly lets (& I) look at mechanical for a option.....the unknowns and new technology
don't always fit the tech sheet.
Just my 2 cents.....Thanks for your help and time !!!
Jon
Hey honk
Very Very impressive on the controller....I may get flamed but having spent alot of time in solid state and pwm/vfd's my concern is the magnitude of the "Spikes" they kill even the most over built SS devices.
If the new controller does not fly lets (& I) look at mechanical for an option.....the unknowns and new technology don't always fit the tech sheet.
Just my 2 cents.....Thanks for your help and time !!!
Jon
PS
Jack glad to help.. lets ALL help the $$ for Jack !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: JackH on June 14, 2008, 07:38:52 PM
Hello Gyula,
Well if Honk would listen to me about when I tell him about motor, but I dought it if Honk wants to continue.
Later,,,,,,JackH
As I told before, I just had to postpone the controller. I would love to continue but at the moment I'm fully occupied
in another project that needs my full attention. I hope to be able to help Jack within a couple of month.
But if somebody else here at OU forum have the necessary electronics skill I encourage you to help Jack.
He needs the controller as fast as possible.
Hi all,
Here are the motor tests:
http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/MotorValveTests.wmv (http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/MotorValveTests.wmv)
Let me know what you think.
Regards,
Steven
Steven, it looks like you put a lot of work into that test, thanks.
I have another general question, and I am not an expert in things electrical, but this is what I am having trouble grasping.
It seems like the whole purpose of the motor is to take electricity, convert it to mechanical energy, and then convert the mechanical energy back to electricity. That seems wasteful. If there is something to be gained from redirecting the magnetic flux like that, can't there be a way to just harness that surplus without having to convert the electrical to mechanical and then back again?
Hi Steven,
Let me congratulate you on a most impressive video, your systematic approach and the marvelous craftmanship of your work.
Your motor is similar to Jacks' but not a replication as your magnets are not in his position and your rotor is very different.
Please don't take this as criticism, for I admire your workmanship. Keep it up and again, congratulations.
Carl
Quote from: Nali2001 on June 18, 2008, 11:35:19 AM
Hi all,
Here are the motor tests:
http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/MotorValveTests.wmv (http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/MotorValveTests.wmv)
Let me know what you think.
Regards,
Steven
Hi do you think problem is the switching frequency? since in previous video in "steady state" the valve works as intented
Hi Steven,
Well, Great job, Carl said it all, so I'll not run on.
I am confused about your lack of increased torque. Your magnetic switching unit is closer to the Sumo motor, you can see the performance charts here if you haven't before:
http://www.genesis-corp.co.jp/e/e401.html
There main motor is a hub motor (example at bottom of page), so the stator and rotor are inverted. But they have four magnetic switching units instead of two. That maybe where you are losing some of the torque.
Regards, Larry
Hey Jack,
Tried to send a PM but they must be having problems.
Just wanted to say Hey and wish you all the best as you are a true Hero.
You are in my prayers.
Carl
Hello Carl,
Well I'm doing OK now. How about you. I am building a new motor, with 2"x 2" magnets, with six valves, two firing at the same time, a radiol motor. This motor should run on 50 vdc at 2 amps. I think it will probably put out at least 2 hp.
Hey Steven,
Can you post the results on the message board. I am running on the phone line and it takes 3 hours to download it.
Thanks
Later,,,,,,JackH
Hi Steven,
in the video you wrote, "....and so lower the amp draw just like in normal electric motor" i think this is not true. normally when you load a motor, the amps go up, like yours did when you applied the load.
the neat thing about your motor, when you add the magnets, amps go down to about half while still carrying the same load. granted the rpm went down to 748.8rpm (the last frame showed the tach reading at 752.2rpm, so pretty much the same rpm as before magnets, 750.8-754.3rpm), but you didn't lose 50% of rpm.
this says to me you were doing the same work for half the power. REALLY NEAT!!!
i would say next thing to do is find out how much work that really is.
keep up the GREAT work!!
tom
Hi Jack,
Well I rather would not write a whole story what a video analysis can show in a few minutes.
I made for you a much smaller version which might be do able for you.
Here it is:
http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/MotorValveTestsSmall.wmv (http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/MotorValveTestsSmall.wmv)
Yes it is still 15mb... and will probably take about 55minutes to download.
But maybe you can put it on in the evening or something... I also made a 8mb version but then the invideo text becomes totally unreadable.
Hope it is not that much a problem....
Steven
Quote from: utilitarian on June 18, 2008, 12:08:28 PM
Steven, it looks like you put a lot of work into that test, thanks.
I have another general question, and I am not an expert in things electrical, but this is what I am having trouble grasping.
It seems like the whole purpose of the motor is to take electricity, convert it to mechanical energy, and then convert the mechanical energy back to electricity. That seems wasteful. If there is something to be gained from redirecting the magnetic flux like that, can't there be a way to just harness that surplus without having to convert the electrical to mechanical and then back again?
Hi and thanks,
Well it is wasteful if you look at it that way, but if you are satisfied with the mechanical power, like for a car then it is just what you need.
Well you are talking about a solid state meg-alike system. Well what can I say, it CAN probably be done but I never found a workable solution to that one.
Quote from: aladinlamp on June 18, 2008, 01:37:48 PM
Hi do you think problem is the switching frequency? since in previous video in "steady state" the valve works as intented
Yes it must have something to do with the many switching times per second. As well as many other things. But that is still not clear at this point. It really is not all that simple when many things happen fast
Hi Steven
Very good video, very professional, Your findings are near with Jack findings, well. But before you make test with high voltage, please make test with osciloscope in the coil of the motor, channel one to coil one, channel two in coil two, please now repeat the test with load and without load and with magnet and without the magnets. In this way we can tune up the voltage for the coil and the pulse width.
If dont have any oscilloscope, please let know to the forum, someone could help you.
Steve if you can make the controller for your motor, you could do the controller for Jack? If yes, please indicate the budget needed.
Quote from: LarryC on June 18, 2008, 05:09:42 PM
Hi Steven,
Well, Great job, Carl said it all, so I'll not run on.
I am confused about your lack of increased torque. Your magnetic switching unit is closer to the Sumo motor, you can see the performance charts here if you haven't before:
http://www.genesis-corp.co.jp/e/e401.html
There main motor is a hub motor (example at bottom of page), so the stator and rotor are inverted. But they have four magnetic switching units instead of two. That maybe where you are losing some of the torque.
Regards, Larry
Hi Larry and thanks,
Yes the lack of torque increase is puzzling to me as well. Can't really give you a good reason why right now.
Never seen that Sumo Motor before, interesting thanks!
Well indeed the more (overlapping) poles you have the better/more equal the power distribution is
Quote from: tbird on June 18, 2008, 08:03:01 PM
Hi Steven,
in the video you wrote, "....and so lower the amp draw just like in normal electric motor" i think this is not true. normally when you load a motor, the amps go up, like yours did when you applied the load.
the neat thing about your motor, when you add the magnets, amps go down to about half while still carrying the same load. granted the rpm went down to 748.8rpm (the last frame showed the tach reading at 752.2rpm, so pretty much the same rpm as before magnets, 750.8-754.3rpm), but you didn't lose 50% of rpm.
this says to me you were doing the same work for half the power. REALLY NEAT!!!
i would say next thing to do is find out how much work that really is.
keep up the GREAT work!!
tom
Hi Tom and thinks,
Hmm yes what I was mean is the fact that a normal (for example dc) motor has a big amp start up surge of say 10 amp. But when the thing is idling at speed, say 1200 rpm unloaded, it is only pulling say 1 amp, why?. That is because of the back emf. Adding the magnetic field of the magnets to the motor valves might cause something like that in the motor in the video.
"i would say next thing to do is find out how much work that really is."
That would be an important step indeed... hmm gotta think about that.
Quote from: Elisha on June 18, 2008, 08:16:39 PM
Hi Steven
Very good video, very professional, Your findings are near with Jack findings, well. But before you make test with high voltage, please make test with osciloscope in the coil of the motor, channel one to coil one, channel two in coil two, please now repeat the test with load and without load and with magnet and without the magnets. In this way we can tune up the voltage for the coil and the pulse width.
If dont have any oscilloscope, please let know to the forum, someone could help you.
Steve if you can make the controller for your motor, you could do the controller for Jack? If yes, please indicate the budget needed.
Hi Elisha and thanks,
I have a scope, will see what I can do. although my simple scope has some trouble centering the frequency.
Well the thing is I perhaps could. But man... his 150dc is damn scary. I blasted away a copper circuit path at 24v already with this motor.
Well talking about the controller made me write this comment. Honk maybe you can use this.
One of the issues with this type of motor is the need for fast switching low impedance coils. That means low coil resistance. And since there are no magnets (or magnetic fields) in the rotor you also don't have the normal back emf (for the record, I'm talking about the real meaning of back emf and not the mis phrased High voltage spike) a normal motor has. That causes a MASSIVE amp surge at start up. Much more then a normal motor. My system will at 48 volt idle at like 0.8 amp. BUT at startup it is smashing my 10 amp scale maximum over and out for like a second or more. I have wasted like two irf250 fets that way. And in Jacks system there is also the problem it seems of the very intense inductive collapse. In my version it is not that crazy. I capture around 180volts to the cap and bulb. But the big amp draw is a problem. Precautions must be taken like starting up at low voltage and climb up to what you need. Or somehow current limit the input system (Jacks dc supply is likely current limited/low amp rated) Or use a system that chops a single pulse in a train of smaller parts.
Regards,
Steven
Quote from: Nali2001 on June 18, 2008, 11:35:19 AM
Hi all,
Here are the motor tests:
http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/MotorValveTests.wmv (http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/MotorValveTests.wmv)
Let me know what you think.
Regards,
Steven
Hi Steven,
Nicely done, good comparison of test magnets vs control setup both load and idle.
May I suggest if it is easily doable, to change (both advance and retard) the pulse firing timing vs rotor position and run similar comparisons? It will be interesting to see if there is any different results, due to delay time of magnetization propagation through the cores when the magnets are on. Can you rotate the hall sensor on the fly as the rotor spins and see any changes (positive or negative?)
Thanks for your efforts and posting these clear results.
QuoteHmm yes what I was mean is the fact that a normal (for example dc) motor has a big amp start up surge of say 10 amp. But when the thing is idling at speed, say 1200 rpm unloaded, it is only pulling say 1 amp, why?. That is because of the back emf. Adding the magnetic field of the magnets to the motor valves might cause something like that in the motor in the video.
back emf isn't the answer to your question. at 0 rpm, the rotor takes a lot of energy to get started. just like your car, you need a lower gear to start it rolling. once to speed, the LOAD is less, so less power is needed.
i think your video clearly shows adding magnets makes the electrical needs less for same load.
if you were to watch for anything, it would be not to over saturate the cores. efficiency drops as flux increases beyond saturation point.
tom
Steve
Yes, is wise to use with precaution your oscilloscope, for measure use 2 resistor in series between the coil, resistor one 10K, resistor two 90K, set the probe of your scope in 10x, then set the probe between resistor one, the display in the scope is 100:1 the real voltage. For additional protection set a zener diode of 20V in parallel to resistor one.
For the problem of high current at start up, a big capacitor is all that you need in the output of the pulsed source to the motor.
The capacitor equation is C = I / (V/t), allready know that I = 10 amper. for V/t, we need the oscilloscope measure.
Steve you can show your circuit diagram?
For make a circuit diagram, please use an ease to use and free (for less that 500 pins, small circuit) software, DesignWorks Express, http://www.capilano.com/downloads/windows/DesignWorksExpressSetup.exe
For ease reading and sharing of circuits. Registration is free, and have all the library that we need for this circuit.
Hello Jack Hildenbrand, I wish good improving health especially, spirulina is a good thing,
Hello all, good day to you all,
I have been reading through this thread, trying to catch up with all previous questions and answers.
Please forgive me, when I am repeating remarks or questions earlier made, I try hard to catch up.
Wondering how I could be of a little help, I ran into an initiative called AERO, Advanced Energy Research Organisation, maybe known to you, maybe not, that's why I mention it here to be sure it will not be overlooked.
Jack, this is their website: http://www.aero2012.com/en/index.html
AERO company is offering considerable money for a working device.
Since you have a working device with COP at least higher than 3, meaning in my definition three times more power out than power put in, you mayt have a chance, given you produce test data.
Given this long time to get the patent application approved, maybe there is a way to work with a Non Disclosure Agreement with this company. As you have started this patenting process, your rights should be protected anyway, since I find your motor configuration new and inventive and I presume this nearly cannot be denied by Patent Authorities in the end. Point seems to be you cannot reach this end because the money thing with your Patent Attorney, at least that's my impression, maybe I am wrong.
Also the Flynn thing could be an explanation of this too long delay, just because the patent authorities refuse to understand the fundamental difference between your approach and Flynn's approach.
Basically, I am afraid it is sheer time consuming law and energy politics trying to withhold the approval as long as possible.
Jack, you have invented something new and really monumental, you deserve full reward, whether patented or not.
I hope your health will improve quickly and you will be able to enjoy the fruits of your endeavour soon.
I would like to thank you for all the details and disclosures you already gave to the community, even the last details regarding the generating function of the coil, I regard as a generous present and I want to thank you for these important gestures. You definitely are a rare breed, since not many an inventor is prepared to give away some fundamental details of his invention given the patent application underway. Anybody professional, creative and open minded should be able to build your motor with a COP higher than 3.
Of course, I know, everybody can say afterwards to the guy who invented the wheel, OK, that's what I also thought how it could work. They will shout this. Remember Jack, you are the only one on earth now who can say, my motor/engine is working this and this way and no doubt about it. Those who will not listen have to find out it the hard way or will not find out at all.
Concerning the testing and not being able to withhold the output axle with a rag. It is a matter of time and money and all the testdate must be made available one way or the other.
Personnally I have a preference for the dynometer test, a running car seems to me more vulnerable to suspicious comments, whereas, testdata of a magnet motor like yours are testdata and cannot be denied by some of the right people, as you will understand what I mean.
Regarding some University people, regarding some people, the problem is, they are not open minded to see the sheer unendless new possibilities on earth. Once some people have received a high qualification for something these people get into the mood of knowing everything for sure, this is many times the case with University people. I sometimes call them priesthood caste with dogma's. By definition your motor is outside what dogma is allowing to be possible, so you will be ignored by many.
You know the story of the airplane invention I suppose. The famous academic Lord Kelvin (?) assured that anything with more weight than air could not fly, so humans would never be able to fly, according to his theories. He forgot you can never be sure of the impossibility of the invention of new theories forced by new practices and new experiments by open minded people of all ranks and file. Happily enough a few bicycle builders did not care about academic theory and they started tinkering with success! Was it 1908 they flew the first 200 yards in the air?
I expect the testdata to confirm the "rag test".
In the mean time, maybe this AERO company deserves a good shot to earn some money. They talk about $200.000,- up front for the right device and a $5 million 2 year royalty fee.
Do not get distracted by the numbers, have a good look into their eyes, I hope it will work for you and if it will be working for you, it will be working for all of us as well in the end.
On the other hand, better have money as a reward than a patent approval, although anybody can understand you prefer to have them both.
Good health, kind regards, good luck from Ceres
Hello ceres,
I tryed to send them an e-mail with some pictures and a letter but I couldnt get there address to work. info@aero2012.com
I'll maybe call them Monday. But I dowt if there will beleive me either. I do not sound very good on the phone. My voice is leaving me because of the ALS.
I could not even get a phone number from them. If somebody else could call them, or send them a fax I would appreciate it. My e-mail address is: jkcc@ohiohills.com
Thanks alot,,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand
Here is a new video. This time with bigger magnets, to see what that does.
Normal version:
http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/big.wmv (http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/big.wmv)
Smaller version for Jack:
http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/small.wmv (http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/small.wmv)
Regards,
Steven
When I play the small version of the new movie it looks like a screen saver or something.
Quote from: Nali2001 on June 21, 2008, 06:19:45 AM
Here is a new video. This time with bigger magnets, to see what that does.
Normal version:
http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/big.wmv (http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/big.wmv)
Hi Steven,
Enjoying the show.
If you haven't seen patent 6369479 FIG 26 allready, this study can save you a lot of time and maybe some magnet money. It is a chart comparing current, separating force and magnet size for the Sumo magnet switching unit.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=1CAJAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=6369479#PPA16,M1
Regards, Larry
@Nali2001
Another great video. Thanks.
I don't know how you have made the coil windings of your motor but I have been posting this patent here and there on the forum. I think it may have some relation to the motor for a better coil winding strategy.
Title: Electrical circuit for inductance conductors, transformers and motors -Patent No 4806834
URL: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get91
I was chatting with Erfinder about the motor and your videos and he said it is basically a reluctance motor with a magnet, which is super neat. You may look into reluctance motors and controllers on Google. Erfinder says the problem with points (or hall effect for that matter) is that the faster you turn the motor, the less contact time you have on the points because they are directly related to the rpm.
Based on that observation, I am thinking that as the rpm increases the motor is less and less riding on the contacts to drive the motor and more more time on the open, thus probably changing into a generator. This will depend on the rotor materials and if there is any north south magnet in the rotor since I do not know the materials. Actually the rotor has to have some magnetic affinities otherwise it would not turn.
Now if this is the case, and Jacks motor (and your current build) may actually be half motor/half generator, this may explain why Honks circuit was not operating to spec. Standard reluctance motor controllers are available on the market and may be a good option to consider.
Here are some links;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reluctance_motor
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?nodeId=02nQXGrrlPb02R
Looking at your build, I am also thinking that the valve may be a good method to produce a drive motor I had posted way back on the forum located here: (Look at the last image animation).
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2707.msg45214.html#msg45214
If such a valve can generate enough magnetic strength to propel a metal weight towards the left, this may be a good avenue to make a drive motor with much more torque potential using gravity. Such a drive motor would do away with BEMF and it would be simpler to capture the coil flyback since each coil would be off for a longer portion of the cycle.
Anyways, keep up the good work.
Quote from: dingbat on June 21, 2008, 08:56:15 AM
When I play the small version of the new movie it looks like a screen saver or something.
Hmm?
Here it's fine besides the lower quality.
So use the bigger one instead.
Quote from: LarryC on June 21, 2008, 09:28:13 AM
Hi Steven,
Enjoying the show.
If you haven't seen patent 6369479 FIG 26 allready, this study can save you a lot of time and maybe some magnet money. It is a chart comparing current, separating force and magnet size for the Sumo magnet switching unit.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=1CAJAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=6369479#PPA16,M1
Regards, Larry
I like that patent, thanks.
Looks like a more direct and simple way of doing this. Also it even seems to work good with big air gaps. Gotta study this more.
Although this bike uses that motor they only talk about 80% efficiency
http://electricandhybridcars.com/index.php/pages/sumomotorcycle.html (http://electricandhybridcars.com/index.php/pages/sumomotorcycle.html)
hmm
Quote from: wattsup on June 21, 2008, 08:44:13 PM
@Nali2001
Another great video. Thanks.
I don't know how you have made the coil windings of your motor but I have been posting this patent here and there on the forum. I think it may have some relation to the motor for a better coil winding strategy.
Title: Electrical circuit for inductance conductors, transformers and motors -Patent No 4806834
URL: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get91
I was chatting with Erfinder about the motor and your videos and he said it is basically a reluctance motor with a magnet, which is super neat. You may look into reluctance motors and controllers on Google. Erfinder says the problem with points (or hall effect for that matter) is that the faster you turn the motor, the less contact time you have on the points because they are directly related to the rpm.
Based on that observation, I am thinking that as the rpm increases the motor is less and less riding on the contacts to drive the motor and more more time on the open, thus probably changing into a generator. This will depend on the rotor materials and if there is any north south magnet in the rotor since I do not know the materials. Actually the rotor has to have some magnetic affinities otherwise it would not turn.
Now if this is the case, and Jacks motor (and your current build) may actually be half motor/half generator, this may explain why Honks circuit was not operating to spec. Standard reluctance motor controllers are available on the market and may be a good option to consider.
Here are some links;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reluctance_motor
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?nodeId=02nQXGrrlPb02R
Looking at your build, I am also thinking that the valve may be a good method to produce a drive motor I had posted way back on the forum located here: (Look at the last image animation).
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2707.msg45214.html#msg45214
If such a valve can generate enough magnetic strength to propel a metal weight towards the left, this may be a good avenue to make a drive motor with much more torque potential using gravity. Such a drive motor would do away with BEMF and it would be simpler to capture the coil flyback since each coil would be off for a longer portion of the cycle.
Anyways, keep up the good work.
Hi there Wattsup,
My coils are about 325 wraps of 1mm wire. With an experimantal tap at about 200 wraps.
Nice patent, will look into this one further.
Yes Erfinder is right it is a reluctance motor with magnets. I have been working with reluctance motors for a while now. They have a few interesting behaviors, but are way harder to make then any other type of motor. Plus the controller in commercial types gets somewhat complicated. I don't use contact points or hall-effects. Just a opto and a driving circuit with pwm and recovery.
Yes I am aware that there could be some generator action going on. It all depends on how much field the rotor caries along but from my tests I have come to the believe that the hysteresis curve is not all that square. And these grain aligned C cores drop fields like mad. Way better then normal transformer steel. But like Jack stated once you 'send out' the field of the magnet it will return once you switch off. Which means there should be induction in the switching coil. Lots of stuff happening in this setup.
Reluctance motors in a sense already do away with back emf. Since they are not working with 'external' magnetic fields like a dc motor does. although the rotor of the reluctance motor does carry some residual magnetism I'm sure.
Thanks for the input,
Steven
Quote from: Nali2001 on June 22, 2008, 10:51:52 AM
I like that patent, thanks.
Looks like a more direct and simple way of doing this. Also it even seems to work good with big air gaps. Gotta study this more.
Although this bike uses that motor they only talk about 80% efficiency
http://electricandhybridcars.com/index.php/pages/sumomotorcycle.html (http://electricandhybridcars.com/index.php/pages/sumomotorcycle.html)
Yes it is 80%, but they base that on how much of the electrical energy input, ends up being used as motor power. It does not include what is allready present and being switched. It does take more energy to switch, then just to create.
Sorry, I don't remember where I read about this, but that's my understanding. Besides, what business would dare say 180%.
Regards, Larry
Hello all, hello Nali,
Thank you Nali for your great job. Seldom you see clear text and video with good light, no trembling, like in yours. These are great videos to help to get things going in higher gear. I like the simplicity of your motor's construction, especially fit for experimentation. This is what we need now. Getting things neat, beautiful and compact is for the design - only make it beautiful - people, they are of no use. Let us get to the core of the business as soon as possible at lowest cost possible.
I downloaded the two videos. The smallest version is working good, about 16 Mb, the motorvalvetest is about 1,9 Mb and gives only one text slide. What am I doing wrong?
Wondering about the high current draw, the apparently not so high torque in the motor. Also wondering why the addition of magnets does not seem to make such a great difference. I think it is not a matter of adding more valves or the like. It should be possible to get your ingenious design better than it is now already by smarter switching, smarter coil design (see the excellent Earl Koenig patent e.g. suggested in the messages above), smarter ..... whatever other options you have.
Could this motor coil permanent magnet behaviour in the video be explained by an unwanted interaction between electromagnetic coil response to switching, thus counteracting added permanent magnets flux?
Could it be explained by the lack of harnessing these spiked electromagnetic responses in the hybrid magnet system?
Is the coil interacting with the permanent magnet in an unknown way and thus waisting energy and lowering performance?
Would Jack's statement about using the magnetic valve also as a generator be a road to explanation of the video's observations and would that be a road to improvement?
What is the difference (e.g. in switching) between Nali's approach and Jack's?
May I suggest to have a look at US6369479 patent, inventor a.o. Sanshiro Ogino, hybrid magnet system, electromagnet and permanent magnet combined.
May I suggest to have a look at the patents graphs on page 6 and page 18. The bigger the gap, the bigger the interacting force??!! These seem to be counter intuitive experimental data.
In the graphs you will find definitely an input power difference, less power for the hybrid case in comparison with the electromagnet case to get the same interacting force.
So, definitely room for lowering electrical power put in at the same mechanical power performance put out, I would say.
Which point am I missing?
So, what may be the essential point for improvement of the Nali configuration?
I am just wondering, I just cannot explain essential things.
Anybody suggestions?
I wish excellent, speedy health to Jack, good experimental, construction and building luck to us all, dollars for Jack to get his patent bills payed.
Ceres
Hi Friends. Jack, Steve, Carl, Wattup, etc
I contact to Randall from Electronic Light, Trying to make a budget to the controller for Jack, This will accelerate the development of Jack Motor, This are good news. With a budget we can make a donation plan to pay the controller
This is the response, What you Think that I need to replay?
>>Hello,
>>I will need more information about the motor. Is there a website for the motor manufacturer with a specification?
>>best regards,
>>Randall
>>Randall A. Shaffer, President
>>Electronic Light, Inc.
>>5820 Cinnamon Drive
>>Prescott, AZ 86305-3876
www.electronic-light.com
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: @electronic-light.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Please make a budget
Hi
We need a budget for a controller for a permanent magnet DC motor, This motor have 3 valves , each valve work with 150V DC, 0,8 Amper continuos current, 2 Amper peak.
The voltage is trigger on off from an opto coupler in the motor, for 500 to 3000 revolution per minute. The output of the controller need to have protection of the motor voltage running generation of 350V added to the 150 VDC of the input and BEMF short voltage peak of -1500V.
The running dynamics of the motor are: when 150 VDC is applied to the input, the motor star to turn, then the voltage start to going up to 450V, the voltage increase come from the motor inside not from the power source.
We want to control the off time before the off time indicated by the opto coupler.
Please make a budget to make the controller for us.
Thanks.
@Steve, Jack
There are many wise to make experiments with the motor, but we do not have all the mechanical or electronic abilities to do it.
We can get organized to make the development of this fast motor but, many could to contribute.
What do you think if we can make a kit for the people of this group, for all make testing?
The Kit will have a fully assembled motor and a controller. The one that is in charge to assemble kit paid to him by its time.
the first thing is get a list of sponsors, each sponsor will have a kit, and make experiments.
Who want to be in the list?
Hi, Elisha.
Personally I doubt that a third party could make a controller without having the motor at hand to test and measure. Good controllers are not all that simple, and especially when there are strange behaviors going on in the motor. And besides that, we are not even at the point that 'everything' is fully understood what happens in the motor. So little real tests have been done, and next to no test data is available.
Regards,
Steven
Quote from: Elisha on June 24, 2008, 12:30:02 PM
Hi Friends. Jack, Steve, Carl, Wattup, etc
I contact to Randall from Electronic Light, Trying to make a budget to the controller for Jack, This will accelerate the development of Jack Motor, This are good news. With a budget we can make a donation plan to pay the controller
This is the response, What you Think that I need to replay?
>>Hello,
>>I will need more information about the motor. Is there a website for the motor manufacturer with a specification?
>>best regards,
>>Randall
>>Randall A. Shaffer, President
>>Electronic Light, Inc.
>>5820 Cinnamon Drive
>>Prescott, AZ 86305-3876
www.electronic-light.com
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: @electronic-light.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Please make a budget
Hi
We need a budget for a controller for a permanent magnet DC motor, This motor have 3 valves , each valve work with 150V DC, 0,8 Amper continuos current, 2 Amper peak.
The voltage is trigger on off from an opto coupler in the motor, for 500 to 3000 revolution per minute. The output of the controller need to have protection of the motor voltage running generation of 350V added to the 150 VDC of the input and BEMF short voltage peak of -1500V.
The running dynamics of the motor are: when 150 VDC is applied to the input, the motor star to turn, then the voltage start to going up to 450V, the voltage increase come from the motor inside not from the power source.
We want to control the off time before the off time indicated by the opto coupler.
Please make a budget to make the controller for us.
Thanks.
Hello Elisha,
I appreciate your input, but I doubt that anyone would pay that kind of money for an experimental device.
To give you an idea what It would cost if I were to build my model and charge man hours:
Materials: cores, magnets, aluminum, bearings, steel = 90euro (no shipping cost counted which were 50euro for the cores alone)
Circuit: parts= 10euro
Machining and making the motor, including the circuit = at least 600 euro.
So that is a total of 700euro
Quote from: Elisha on June 24, 2008, 12:46:20 PM
@Steve, Jack
There are many wise to make experiments with the motor, but we do not have all the mechanical or electronic abilities to do it.
We can get organized to make the development of this fast motor but, many could to contribute.
What do you think if we can make a kit for the people of this group, for all make testing?
The Kit will have a fully assembled motor and a controller. The one that is in charge to assemble kit paid to him by its time.
the first thing is get a list of sponsors, each sponsor will have a kit, and make experiments.
Who want to be in the list?
Ragarding attraction force in this rotary design,
Does the attraction force versus electric input increases with closer and closer alignment of rotor and stator cores?
force beeing strongest when rotor is in fully aligned with stator ?
thanx
Yes an airgap can be though of as a resistor, so a 0.01 mm airgap is way better then 0.1mm
The valve will switch with less effort.
Quote from: Nali2001 on June 24, 2008, 04:33:56 PM
Yes an airgap can be though of as a resistor, so a 0.01 mm airgap is way better then 0.1mm
The valve will switch with less effort.
Hi
how many times bigger machine than your's will be needed to build, so it's airgap 0.1 mm will have same effect as 0.01mm in small machine.
Thanx
Hello All,
The larger the air gap between the rotor and the cores, the less power it uses.
Later,,,,,Jack
Quote from: Erfinder on June 22, 2008, 11:31:37 AM
First, Armgdn03 if you are viewing this your knowledge is needed!
This is to clarify what was said or should have been said to wattsup offline?..keep in mind I am no expert, I just like knowing all facts.
Inductance
?Inductance is the characteristic of an electrical circuit that makes itself evident by opposing the starting, stopping, or changing of current flow.?
Self-Inductance
?When the current changes, the magnetic field changes, and an emf is induced in the conductor. This emf is called a SELF-INDUCED EMF because it is induced in the conductor carrying the current.?
Inductive Kick
?It has been shown that an inductor in which there is a changing current becomes a source of EMF, and that the direction of this EMF is such that it tends to oppose the change in the current producing it. As a result of this action the current in the inductor does not rise to its full value the instant the switch is closed, but rises at a rate which depends on the L/R ratio. ?
From this we observe that a certain amount of time is required before current flowing through an inductor reaches its finial steady state. This time period is governed by the ratio L/R (Inductance/Resistance). It said that after an interval of time (5L/R) current has reached its finial steady state value.
Ex. T = L/R
T= 30/1
T= 30 seconds
Steady state value equals :
t = 5L/R = 5T
Where t = elapsed time, in seconds
Therefore: steady state will be reached in
5 * T = t
5 * 30 = 150 sec
Now this example is taken from a book so don?t pick a fight with me if you don?t agree! The example my book provides is totally over exaggerated, as no one will ever use 30H coils in their motor designs. The point is that one must be mindful of the steady state time! If you are using points which connect your coils with the source you must ensure that the coils are allowed to remain in contact with the source till steady state is reached, otherwise you have a coil which is not being used to its maximum potential.
Points systems should be engineered to adapt to varying motor speeds. Speeds will vary as load conditions vary. Loading the motor or generator will increase the amount of time that a coil is connected to the source, not good! This in my opinion is why a properly designed PWM circuit is superior to points, as the amount of time that the coil is connected to the source can be fixed, and or adjusted by the operator. Some may still argue that points are better as they are not subject to catastrophic failure like integrated circuits are. In response to this I say comprehend how the circuit will (must) behave, and design accordingly. Although high voltage transients do kill solid state circuits, bad circuit planning is the true culprit!
Armagdn03 opened my eyes to a world I knew existed but didn't fully comprehend, I invite him to correct my oversights, and add where ever he sees fit.
Regards
This is an interesting thread indeed! I commend all on their work here and wish the best.
Thank you Erfinder for a more than flattering introduction, lol.
What you have posted is completely correct. What should and usually is taken into account when designing such systems is not only functionality, but also maximal efficiency. Take for example duty cycle, which is prevalent in point systems, as Tesla and many other pioneers have shown. Both inductors and capacitors have a time constant associated with them meaning that based on certain variables it takes a certain amount of time for them to "level off" if we cut off power before this point, we are wasting power! Also, if a condition of resonance is to be attained, the off cycle must match accordingly in order to reach resonant rise. If there is too much "dead" time in between pulses, we reach a point where the oscillations stop, there is dead space, and then they start again, when in reality we want one set of oscillations to lead into the other. Perhaps this is going beyond what is trying to be accomplished here, but dont ignore it, always room to take it to the next level.
@armagdn03
Welcome and h ope you are well.
@Nali2001
Got an idea that may be good for these motors. Variable commutator.
1) You can use two of your black timing disks stuck to each other and have one with a screw that enable you to make the active band wider or thinner.
2) You can have three or four commutators on the same shaft having each a different timing and just switch the brushes from one to the other.
3) You can have three or more sets of points on the same shaft, all having different camshaft frequencies. This could also have a centrifugal mechanism that automatically pushes on only a single set of points, to move it farther down or back on a varying camshaft.
Instead of using a PWM circuit and struggling with the flyback barbecue, just keep it as straight as possible by moving a variable commutator. This way there is no circuit between the coils and the battery so flyback can land back safely, and the question of less contact at higher frequencies will be resolved.
Just an idea from your friendly neighborhood OUer.
@Jack,
In response to your last post regarding air gap dimensional optimization, correct me if I am wrong; so the air gap dimensions need to be adapted to the whole system and contrary to general intuitive belief you say there is no merit in the idea that the smaller the gap, the better.
On the contrary, you say, the bigger the gap the less energy needs to be put into the coil, so maybe I am wrong, you might say there is a range of optimization for the airgap.
The smaller the airgap the higher the electrical energy input, at a certain airgap range you reach optimum COP, after that range, the bigger the airgap the higher the electrical energy input again?
Does your statement confirm the graphs in the Ogino Sanshiro US patent 6369479, page 6 and 18?
Could this also be an explanation of the phenomena seen in Nali's motor design and videos? No extra torque nor substantial lowering of current drawn when permanent magnets are added.
Keep on repeating, Jack, you have been one of the few, capable of producing a COP > 300%, even the best and brightest did not manage and will never manage because of arrogance. Keep on repeating time and again these kind of phrases, spirits up!!!@#$%! The better World is watching you and is expecting you to come back!
Best wishes, best health improvement,
Ceres
Hello Ceres,
I tand by my statement that The larger the air gap between the rotor and the cores, the less power it uses. However I must say that I intend to create and air gap of around 2 thousands or less in my motors.
With my motors when you take the magnets out the RPM drops to around half of the RPM when the magnets are in. In the single valve motor(2" magnets) the RPM with the magnets in is around 1800 , with the magnets out of the motor the RPM drops to around 700.
I do not know what Nali2001 is doing. The RPM drops on his motor when the magnets are added. I think maybe he is puting his magnets in backwords.
I have no idea what you are talking about,,,,,Does your statement confirm the graphs in the Ogino Sanshiro US patent 6369479, page 6 and 18?
Later,,,,,,JackH
Hi Jack,
I can explain what Ceres meant if you have a few minutes?
Well if you have the free Acrobat Reader software installed on your computer then you could see Figures 5 and 6 in page 6 and Figure 26 in page 18 of the US patent 6369479, ok?
To open the patent, (which is PDF file format) would you click this link: http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat6369479.pdf This will open in your Acrobat Reader (assuming you have it installed earlier).
If you do not have the Acrobat Reader installed, then here is another link to see this patent:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=1CAJAAAAEBAJ&dq=6369479 and click on the Drawing to see the Figures.
The above Figures show a normal electromagnet and a so called hybrid-type magnet performance how much attractive force they produce in the function of the input current, at different air gap settings. The patent includes the principle how the hybrid magnet is setup.
Regards,
Gyula
I stand by my statement that the larger the air gap between the rotor and the cores, the less power it uses. However I must say that I intend to create and air gap of around 2 thousands or less in my motors.
Now thats like making watch parts! impressive..
I will just say hello to all of you. I found this forum by happenstance. I have read almost every post...it waa kind of like watching the show 24' ...you don;t want the episode to end and you want to see what JAck does next.
no offense to the real Jack H here.
My interest in alternative energy comes from my background in food delivery. Pizza in particular. I have
a store just north of the white house. www.202eatpizza.com .. with the price of fuel and cheese ...its putting
the screws to profits. My friend owns a large engineering firm and they have designed everything from
turbine generators to plastic lawn chairs. Of course nothing like what Jack H has developed here.
we have been working on an electric vehicle as I want to have a fleet of them at my store in D.C. so all the
beauracrats can witness just a pizza guy deliver pizzas all over the NAtions Capital without a drop of
PETROL!!! with no help from GM,GE or the US Gov....
Battery tech is just not there yet for storage...as I need to get about 80 miles per day..(more even better).to be safe...current tech is around 30-40 miles per day without recharge...
Jacks small motor is what I have been looking for...All I need to do is extend the battery life to get some
more miles per day......to make it easier on us ...we are going to start with a used MINI or something...yank out
the motor.,tranny and whatevelse is heavy and uneeded..and but in wheel based electric motors....driven by
of course all electricty...we may just use a small deisel engine as recharge...(current tech and easy to implement.)..but Jack's motor or a derivative would be perfect..
Jacks motor running a generator is a home run!! I guess I won;t get to see it in this episode..
I wish all of you well and good health...especially Jack..
it is refreshing to see a small internet community rally around someone who they have never met in person..
except of few...
Ill be back to read another episode I hope..
Regards
John Andrews
Wash D.C. (actually Vienna,VA) :)
Hello all,
must clear up some things.
As you might have noticed, most of my video's are not dowloadable anymore. I got some complains from my web host saying I way passed my 20gb monthly traffic for files. So I had to remove them.
What I have found does goes hand in hand with what Jack is saying. And no my magnets are not backwards...
The bigger air gaps does reduce the required input and that is because you reach with the bigger air gaps a point where the magnet don't switch anymore. I have had that myself. But if you tune air gaps size, magnet strength and input power to the right amount the magnets indeed switch and cause extra rotor acceleration/torque boost. The thing is that this is also the point where the (my) valve starts pulling more (watt) power. Plus I have indeed come to the believe that speed is not a thing you want in this engine. A few hundred rpm is all you want. Since if you go faster you are also reducing the 'on' time for each pulse and that means that the coils gets less and less time to build up the amp flow. Which mean you need to input increasingly higher voltage to overcome the impedance more and more. So "keep it slow" I also kind of believe that you want a "wide" rotor to allow for a long 'attraction interaction phase'
Regards,
Steven
[. Which mean you need to input increasingly higher voltage to overcome the impedance more and more. So "keep it slow" I also kind of believe that you want a "wide" rotor to allow for a long 'attraction interaction phase'
Regards,
Steven
[/quote]
Hi Steven,
Love your work as well. Based on my research I believe your comments are dead on. I personally think
the width helps but even better would be length.....keep in mind..I do not have my head completely around
what is going on....however it seems that the collapse of the magnetic field flashes the magnetic polarity to produce a flip in the rotator and create torque...
hence a longer and or wider magnet would be even better...
Steven....your comments about voltage in.....space etc...I think are right,,,,have you decided or computed any ratios which would maximize the effect?
All the best...
Regards,
JOHN Andrews
Hello Steven,
I am a bit confused, What causses your motor to drop rpm when the magnets are added? My motors always give up almost half the RPM when I take the magnets out.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Hi Jack,
I believe there is an balance in a motor as this which will allow for good switching of the magnet. And the most important factor is the airgap. A super tiny airgap will put up less resistance against the magnet, and so will allow good switching. Now keep in mind that a small airgap on a small motor might still be too big. I mean if you make a hand size motor with a 0.1mm airgap you think that is small. But if you make a car sized motor with also a 0.1mm airgap it is in a much better situation for good switching. Since the size of the poles versus airgap size is also a important factor. The other thing is, input power. Right now I am limited to 48v max. which is not high enough for my liking. Plus there is also the 'issue' of magnets. I have found that the magnets only switch good when you have the situation where the valve almost becomes leaky when the magnets are added. That means that the valve still attracts a tiny bit when turned off. But when you are in a situation where the magnets don't switch at the supplied power level, you will see a mini drop in rpm since the magnets re interfering with the coil. But there is a lot to it. personally I believe these motors shine when build big and for low rpm.
Regards,
Steven
Hello Steven,
Well I half to agree with you a little bit. But I think you have the magnets too fare from the rotor. I have found that the best way to build this motor is to have the magnets in between the rotor and the coil. That way the magnets is very close to the rotor.
Your magnets are very close to the coil and fare away from the rotor. I have also found out that if you keep the magnets inline with the rotor and the coil, you get more power out and more rpm. I think that the way you are doing, the magnet on the side of the core is causing the rpm to drop when you put the magnets on the side of the core. I am a dummie, and maybe I do not know.
I built one of these motors like you built, it makes it easy to build, but the magnets are to fare from the rotor. The magnets need to be inline with the rotor and the coil for best power and rpm. I try to get my motors to build best power at around 1600 rpm, at free whele thay run at around 2000 rpm.
Later,,,,,Jack
@JackH
Thanks for them words. People should pay attention.
Had an idea and made the following to see if I understand.
Hope you are feeling well.
Hello wattsup,
Did the motor run faster and have more power with the magnets in the center. or off the side.
Thank you, I am felling very well now, I think I can bet this ALS or what ever I got.
Later,,,,,JackH
double-post
@JackH
The above are just concepts I put together to illustrate the difference between the two magnet/motor configurations. I will try it soon with two identical motors, one cut and one intact and add the magnets to each and see what they do. This will give a more direct relationship based on identical motors. Hopefully some time next week.
Good to hear you are dong better.
Hey Jack,
Sorry I have not posted lately.., trying to save America in my own way.
Jack,
What you have is not EASILY duplicated and I have to chuckle at some attempts to do so. No offense to anyone attempting replication but you are the master craftsman and I will always be on your side of this. There's no way to fully explain what you've accomplished but seeing IS believing and I saw it. You already have a variable commutator and it's a marvelous piece of work.
Great to hear you're doing better and I'll continue to pray for your improved health. Just do what you do and good things will happen. I'll be there for you if you need me.
For the rest of you, please contribute to Jack's work.., some variation of it will show up in motors of the future.
Thanks Jack,
Carl
Hi wattsup,
It should be like this:
Hello Carl and wattsup,
Thank you very much for wishing me well, and I need all the praying I can get. Thank you!!!
Later,,,,,JackH
Hey Jack,
It was good talking with you last night and I'm really excited about the new motor design. Radial unit you showed me is a beaut and you next iteration promisses to be even better. Just one question..,
have you figured out the commutator design so that each magnet fires by itself and not at the same time as another. I hope you'll try six stators and six contacts. Seems like you'll get the most power out that way. Don't envy you for making that commutator! Good luck my freind.
Carl
Hello Carl,
It was really good talking to you also, seems like I have a freind down south. I,ll have you up again with your dino when I get this new motor done. I also liked your web site, marchforyourcountry.com .
Yes I have figured it out. I am going to try it both ways. First I am going to try firing the coils one at a time and then I am going to try two firing at the same time. Just to see the power output and amps. I build the armiture and the brushes.
Later,,,,,,JackH
I know we discussed this and I'm excited about the results, either way. The combos you've allowed yourself are truly awesome. Please let me know which way proves the most efficient.
It really pisses me off that I cannot machine what you do so I guess I'm just going to have to live vicariously through you.
Keep it up my friend, you are THE MAN!
Carl
There is another forum, where they are working with technology parallel path, and are making very good progresses.
All the information is completely open source, everything is transparent and give the complete information.
The bad thing is that it is in Italy and to understand the page it is necessary to translate it with google translator.
They already made the electrical motor of flynn and works well, now are making a great motor but with valve type flynn, and soon with valve type Jack, although they do not know the work of Jack, its tests and models have taken them to think that the valve type Jack is better than the valve Flynn type, they call this Super "C".
Them attached some photos of the great motor, "monstruo" that it is a rotor of 4 poles and a stator of 3 phases.
This are two italian guys, the mecanic "mac-giver" and the electronic "kekko".
In this link is a resume of all the information http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=http://www.progettomeg.it/parallel_path.htm&usg=ALkJrhgZdti1j6dlie8i-iSXQ0zmejiTSA
http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=http://www.progettomeg.it/parallel_path.htm&usg=ALkJrhgZdti1j6dlie8i-iSXQ0zmejiTSA (http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=http://www.progettomeg.it/parallel_path.htm&usg=ALkJrhgZdti1j6dlie8i-iSXQ0zmejiTSA)
Now the "monstruo" consumes 300mah 250V each valve, soon the power out (weeks). they expec power output 3 to 10HP.
In this days they figure out the power electronics, using power mosfet and ultra fast power diode to manage lenz.(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.energeticambiente.it%2Fattachments%2Fparallel-path%2F285d1211066260-come-nasce-il-motore-parallel-path-il-mostro-pp-rotore.jpg&hash=c5f16bb7f0e632e5f823488e63f638edc2d25e3a)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.energeticambiente.it%2Fattachments%2Fparallel-path%2F415d1212100434-come-nasce-il-motore-parallel-path-il-mostro-quasi-finito4.jpg&hash=a3c9c04ab27fc8e88415a71bfd18c51a3cbccae6)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.energeticambiente.it%2Fattachments%2Fparallel-path%2F421d1212201917-come-nasce-il-motore-parallel-path-il-mostro-finito5.jpg&hash=0d10b847cf6d66494bbadf310f0a08a76198c1cc)
Enjoy the ride, ;D
Hello All,
I finally got the patent on my motor. Altho the government wants $720 for processing it. If anyone wants to donate to the fund I would surily appreciate it. I spent all of the money getting the six valve motor up and running.
jkcc@ohiohills.com
Hilden-Brand Energy LLC
Thanks very much for the Donations.
Later,,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand
You need it , you got it.., I can only do what I can do and hope others will do the same...
He now needs $620.00 so PPPLLLLEEEEAAASSSSEE dig deep my freinds. Jack's work is worthy of our investments. Seeing is beleiving and I beleive his motor is the best I've ever seen.
Carl
By the way, Jack, if you get a chance I'd love for you to make a 32 segment commutator for my work.
It will be mounted on a 1/2" shaft. Will gladly pay you what you ask for it!!!! 1" length with insulator to prevent contact with the shaft. If possible you can do it.
Never seen anybody that can do what you do and that's why I request it from you... let me know.
Carl
Hello All,
Here is a picture of my new motor, this motor is 36 inches tall. This is a radiol with six valves. I expect it to put out around 2 hp on 200 to 300 watts. I am going to have Carl come up to dino this motor.
Another thing, If anyone wants to donate to this motor, you will be well reworded if it sells. I have $560 dollers on the patent, I'll need to buy copper wire to wind the coils.
Pictures
@Jack,
Nice looking motor. Hope it works out well for you. I'm afraid I can't contribute any funds (I have a project of my own that sucks up any spare change), but ...
I'M ROOTIN FOR YA!
OC
Hey Jack,
You continue to amaze. That ones a beaut! Let us know what your test results are.
Carl
@JackH
Another nice build indeed. Tell me, what about the coils that are already on your other units. Would they fit this new model? If not what is the AWG and approximate lengths required. Mag wire is widely available via Ebay.
Hey just saw a report on CNN - at the University of Wisconsin they have made a breakthrough using stem cells from ALS patients that was then re-injected into the brain of the patient to ward off the progression. Hmmmmm.
Keep well.
Hello wattsup,
Could you tell me more about the stem cell for ALS patients. Maybe I could be a test patient.
I found a bucket of wire that is 16 AWG. I'll try that first. I think it may be the right size. I'll let you know. And know the other coils would not fit. I made the coil forms a little larger than I use to make sure the magnets work out OK.
I want to thank everybody for the donations. I now have enough to pay the government off. Thank you very much.
WAY TO GO PEOPLE!!!!!!
I'm so happy for you Jack. Another load lifted.
I read about the stem cell injections a few years back and the results were very good. Don't know who's doing this but a google search might uncover someone with knowledge of this technology.
Best wishes for good health,
Carl
Quote from: abigpicture on July 09, 2008, 02:58:32 AM
Battery tech is just not there yet for storage...as I need to get about 80 miles per day..(more even better).to be safe...current tech is around 30-40 miles per day without recharge...
Regards
John Andrews
Wash D.C. (actually Vienna,VA) :)
You might want to investigate the Diesel-electric hybrid buses being developed in Rio de Janeiro brazil, and more specifically, the high output/input capacitors they use in this diesel electric hybrid buses instead of batteries. As you know, lead acid and other batteries in use today just cannot handle the constant, high amperage charge/discharge cycles an electric motor driven vehicle places on them.
Also, you may want to investigate building an ethanol burning modified diesel engine to run a generator to charge these capacitors (a system similar to these Brazilian hybrid buses except much smaller)
Because ethanol has a very high octane rating, diesel engines modified to run compression ratio's of about 28:1 (a regular diesel is about 18:1) take full advantage of ethanol's superior performance characteristics, producing high power and excellent fuel efficiency, plus virtually emission free operation. Gas spark type engines, modified to run at higher compression ratio's of around 18:1 also produce much more HP and run much more efficiently than regular gasoline engines, and the multi-fuel cars being built in the USA today to use either gasoline or E85 ethanol.
The reason those multi fuel cars don't perform as well on ethanol as they could is because they can't take advantage of the high compression ratio's and advanced timing ethanol is able to run on. Compression ratio's have to be kept low in order for them to run properly on the crappy unleaded regular gasoline made today to meet EPA standards. The government (EPA) is more interested in emissions than performance. They can achieve these tighter emission standards by adding more and more ethanol to gasoline. While E10 generally improves exhaust emissions without any performance or fuel mileage loss, higher blends, like E25- E50 can cause problems such as water separating from the gasoline in cooler temps, plus fuel mileage begins to suffer because Ethanol just doesn't perform well in low compression engines.
E85 doesn't have these water separation problems, but unless run in high compression engines with modified ignition systems to take full advantage of the properties of ethanol, fuel mileage suffers by about 3-5 MPG in a flex-fuel car.
Why American car manufacturers don't make a high compression ethanol only engine, which would produce much higher performance AND higher fuel mileage than a regular gas engine, I just don't know. E85 is available in many states, and the list grows every year.
Personally, I would go for an modified ethanol burning diesel which would run the generator to charge the capacitors. Combined with electric recovery brake system like these brazillian buses use, you could make a fairly efficient hybrid electric car.
I use a lot of ethanol in my stock race cars and snowmobile race engines, (my expensive hobby). Because of the high price of gas now ( here in Canada it's about $6.50 a gallon) I rebuilt a 4cyl. engine, (17:1 compression ratio ethanol beast) to replace the gas burning engine in my Nissan 4x4 pick up. Not only does it have more than twice the horse power, I get 34 miles per gallon on ethanol, compared to the 23 mpg I was getting on gas. I buy bulk ethanol by the 55 gal drum, which I pay $2.62 a gallon for. Much cheaper than gasoline. And it smells much better, just like at the race track.
Almost forgot- here's a link that might help you get started locating those capacitors from brazil
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CYH/is_15_6/ai_89924475
The super capacitors and manufactured by a company called Tavrima Super capacitors
http://www.tavrima.com/home.html
Check out the super capacitor race car
Actually this company may have the entire electric car system you are looking for:
http://www.l3research.com/
This is the new web page of Joseph Flynn Paralllel path, the couriosity is that they omit the parallel path words in all the web page.
They are hard working to revolutionate the electric motor world.
http://www.qmpower.com/power/index.aspx (http://www.qmpower.com/power/index.aspx)
But they dont know that Jack is in the corner.
Jack, please a question.
In your new motor, I see that your valves are in line with rotor, my question is, ?Have the valve ortogonal to the rotor not is better?
Hello Elisha,
Explain the word ortogonal, I do not know what it means.
Also my valve is not Paralllel path.
I just received a patent on my motor.
Later,,,,,JackH
Quote from: JackH on August 03, 2008, 09:21:25 PM
I just received a patent on my motor.
Hi Jack.
What is your patent's number?
Hello FredWalter,
As soone as I pay for it. It takes about three or four weeks to get a patent number. I'll post it when it is ready.
Later,,,,,JackH
Well there is the icing on flynn's cake. He jumped into bed with boeing and see what it got him. I would bet he has lost the controlling rights to his tech to them. As soon as they got > 51%, he took a back seat like it or not. Thats how they do it.
Doubt we will be hearing any out him now. Not much care anyhow. Did try and make one of his. Motor isn't hard, its controlling it right. Takes a micro-controller to do it right.
my 2/c worth
thaelin
Quote from: Nali2001 on June 21, 2008, 06:19:45 AM
Here is a new video. This time with bigger magnets, to see what that does.
Normal version:
http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/big.wmv (http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/big.wmv)
Smaller version for Jack:
http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/small.wmv (http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/small.wmv)
Regards,
Steven
anybody has these videos, can you upload somewhere?
I know this isn't the best place to ask this questions but I figured one of you would know. I have been researching Jack and Flynn's work and I just wanted to dig into Flynn's claims. I have read from many "believer/seeker" websites that Flynn has a contract with Boeing's Phantom works. My questions is, "where is there documentation/proof that this is true"? I know Flynn's website claims to be working with them but is there a third party validating this information from their own sources? My gut just doesn't feel right about their veracity. I would think that if Boeing was involved they would have taken Flynn's site down. Please feel free to Personal message me with a response due to the differing nature from this thread.
Thanks,
Tim
Hi Jack,
In your motor ?if you Have the valve orthogonal to the rotor not is better?
The valves of your motor are on the stator, inside there is the rotor, the valves have form of " C"
By orthogonal I talk about to rotate the valves on its axis 90 degrees.
As the valves are now, it seems that the rotor when approaching them first makes contact with an end of the valve, later makes contact with both extreme, continuous rotating and only does contact with the other end and later with no end.
But rotating the valve 90 degrees, the rotor have contact with both extreme at the same time, and continuous rotating and leave the contact with both extreme at the same time.
Then question is, is better with the rotated valve 90 degrees or as is now?
Hello Elisha,
I have built it both ways in the past. I have found that it produces more power the way it is.
Later,,,,,Jackh
Hi Jack:
Just an observation on my part but having the valve the way you do would
on turn on attract the rotor to the first half of the valve and then it would "see"
that there is another and be attracted to that then. Basically you wind up with
two attractions instead of one. Would that be right? First one would have the
whole rotor to see then split with the other half.
thaelin
Hello thaelin,
You are correct. The second pull is the most powerfull one, it pulls between the magnets.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Jack, you are a Master.
You have considered to use coil mirror in the winding of the valves of the new motor?
The patent 4806834, please take a time and see mirror coil, http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=6&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=4806834&OS=4806834&RS=4806834 (http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=6&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=4806834&OS=4806834&RS=4806834)
also can see in google patent search http://www.google.com/patents?id=i3pNAAAAEBAJ&dq=4,806,834 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=i3pNAAAAEBAJ&dq=4,806,834)
They say efficiency of almost 100% can be achieved.
Hello Elisha,
Well I wouldn't say I was a Master. But I have worked on just about every kind of motor there is in the past 8 years, with my machine shop. I have also worked on this kind of thing about 27 years, in somebody's machine shop. Howard Jonson got me started.
The only thing that showed overunity is my motor, none of the rest of them showed overunity. I worked on all kinds of motors, especially Flynn's motor, I could not get them to put out more power than input, I could not get them to put out more than 98% efficient. I am thinking of winding Baffler coils for my new motor, if I can get my hands to work. Thank you for your praise!!!!!
Later,,,,,JackH
How is the ALS/healing codes going?
Be sure to give your body other stuff it needs to fix the problems as well. (sunlight, water, good nutrition including chlorella/spirulina)
Sometimes these things work immediately, other times it takes a year. (My mother reports feeling better than she did 25 years ago or more from being on some of this stuff, but it took most of a year)
BTW there is another system that is very similar, might give inspiration:
http://www.emofree.com/Articles2/ALS-aspinall.htm
http://www.emofree.com/Anger-management/ALS-anger-lund.htm
Though the healing codes are better since a right out negative result for ALS has been established unlike EFT, however this should serve as encouragement as they are the same type of symptom.
Incidentally I found this too: http://www.evenbetternow.com/als.asp for what it's worth.
Try this one http://www.extremehho.com
Quote from: HHO King on August 19, 2008, 07:36:36 PM
Try this one http://www.extremehho.com
Stefan, this is a spammer.
ok
You might find me completely out of line for saying the following and you might be right.
As is apparent from you last and older posts your health is slowly acting up on you. What I'm wondering about is why such old individuals still worry themselves with patents and money. Won't you do the world much more benefit if you just disclosed your model under some open source terms. Why can't you just see that at your current age and in your current state? Even I who am still young and have "my whole life ahead of me" so to speak would not hesitate a moment in disclosing my working invention.
There is nothing hidden in Jacks system.
If you have a big and good equipped shop you could make one after reading this forum.
Problem is though, that no one here except Jack has the tools to make these things.
Hello broli,
Well I thgought about this for just a while, And for what its werth, My wife would like to live better. We have been living the low life for abote 27 years now and the. I would like to give my wife a better life and my grand children a better like, and my step sone, after I'm goon.
The only way to do that is to patent tis motor and let them get roilties fron it. I have only gotten 24 people donate to my cause(around 2300.00). So I cannot beleive it overunity to get them a better like. OH, by the way my hand are as good a gold, I can still walk. I am puting another motor togather NOW.
You must want to be someone that want something free, just lay it out in your hands.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Hey Jack
Jon here...I'll give you a call on Wednesday but in the mean time I would like to rally the troops a bit and get you some monetary relief. Stephan... you can help with this too. I've donated about $400 + in $$ and material and believe in Jacks work !!! He is not hiding anything and is doing his due dillagence to document and patent the most promising overunity device that I and many of you have ever seen. Scroll back to Jacks email address and Paypal account and lets get some help to him to get the attorney paid off and get this stuff out there.
Jack you have a ton of talent and vision!! We want to help the achieve the goal !!!!!
Thanks for all your work and patience.
Jon
Yep I am someone who wants stuff for free because I also give my ideas away for free. I have currently 0âââ,¬Å¡Ã,¬ funding on my bank account and live with my parents on a low pension income from my dad. And I don't complain! I don't need to live any better than this. Of course I can't stay like this forever but I'm willing to sacrifice my life for the sake of FE. Too bad noone pays you for FE research.
I really hate to get into these side deductions from the actual research but I wanted to make a comment. Who ever does end up creating FE my not even be able to secure the idea with patents. A patent is only as good as the amount of money you put in to creating it and the amount of money you have to defend it. Not saying you shouldn't try to get one. Even in you don't get a patent but can take the idea to the public first and be recognized in the media as the man or men that created you will be millionaires. Just the sponsorships and endorsements will make you millions. Like Michel Phelps from the Olympics. They say he will make 40 Million dollars in this first year after the olympics. All you have to do is just prove to the world that you can do it. Just my two cents.
Tim
Hello Jon,
Thanks alot for having confindence in me. I used to work 12 to 14 hours a day in my shop, but now I get really trired at working 4 to 5 hours. I really owe the lawer around $3500.00 now, it really would be a help to pay him off.
This motor I am building will prove overunity can be reaced with magnets.
I have done everything I can to build a better future for my grandchildren, my wife, and my step sone, and all my incesters.
Thanks very much fer giving me a cance. I cannot very well talk now, so if you call me I'll try to be understandable.
Later,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand
@JackH
Glad to hear things are going a little better with your health.
Regarding the patent, I thought you had enough with what we gave you the last time to clear the final patent costs. Lawyers, can always wait if they have already received some amount for their work. I think it is very important that the patent be issued ASAP. Is this the case?
Keep well.
Hello wattsup,
Well Thanks for the good wishes.
I am able to use my hands yet and I can still walk around a bit. Walking in the shop for about four hours is a bit much. I have lost about half my sterenth, but I can use lifting defices to pick things up. I just had a feeding tube put into my stumach, that helps get the nutricision I need to carey on.
Yes the lawyer can wait. I set up the lawer to wait till I'm dead. and my wife say se she will pay the lawer of with my life insurence money.
The motor is comming alone real good. I just made the coil cores for it and I about to build the rotor. Should have that done in about a week. Tjhis motor should be runnung in about two weeks.
Thanks again,,,,,
Later,,,,,JackH
Hi Jack,
I remember you mentioned much earlier on this Forum (in another thread) that your valve principle works also in a motionless setup too. I would like to know if you included it in your presently pending patent application and what
else could you share on that? I would be interested to learn about it whatever you wish to say about it.
Of course I do understand if you still have to wait for giving out any info.
Thanks,
Gyula
Hello Gyula,
Well I processed 5 aplications, and there are being looked at right know. One for the valve, one for the eletromatic transformer, one for the motor, and one pickup device.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Quote from: JackH on September 10, 2008, 04:16:49 PM
This motor I am building will prove overunity can be reaced with magnets.
So you are building a completely new motor to prove overunity, even thou you already have built the best motor possible that
is well overunity, according to you. Now this sounds very strange in my ears. If you already have a motor capable of OU, why
are you building another motor..?? You should instead focus on making it self run or undeniable prove more power out than in.
I'm a sceptical guy by nature and this new development makes me believe you haven't really reached OU, but you can't accept
this after all the work and years you have spent on this motor technology.
If I had any type of OU device I would make it self run and then take it to any university and show a physicist. Not build another one.
@Ergo
What would you do if you were waiting around for your patent to go through, can't really talk about your device and you have a nice workshop just waiting for you? lol
@wattsup
I don't mind him building a lot of motors, but ever since he started building these things way back, he keeps repeating
himself in the same manners over and over. Almost every motor he had was well overunity (except the the early ones).
Then suddenly he scraps the motor or just abandon it in order to build another one. And this goes on and on.
He also contradicts himself in every other sentence about his progress. Something does not feel right about the real truth here.
I would really love to see an educated guy from this forum go down to his shop and perform accurate input vs output measurements.
He's reported 90 Watts in and 1/2 HP output on his present big motor. This is 373W / 90W = 4.14 COP. Very impressive.
He want's a controller to adapt the output from the generator into the needs of the motor & then run it for prolonged times.
That is fine with me, but at this COP level it doesn't take a controller to run the motor in closed loop if the reported COP 4.14 is true.
He just need to hook up his 150V powersupply directly to the generator output and then it should run by itself once started by external
power that is disconnected once the motor has reved up.
Let's say his 150V adjustable powersupply has an efficiency of 70%, then he still has 261 watts left for the motor to run in closed loop.
It doesnt matter that his motorcycle points burn out after 10 minutes or so. If he can show a self runner for that long he's got a winner.
This is such an easy task to perform if the COP report is true. But I'll bet my two cents on his motors not being OU after all.
Hello Ergo,
I'm building one for a car now, you jerk. The one I built with one inch magnets was not overunity, Until I started building one out of 2"x 2"x 6" magnets they were not overunity.
Later,,,,,JackH
Quote from: JackH on September 23, 2008, 06:23:40 PM
Until I started building one out of 2"x 2"x 6" magnets they were not overunity.
If your so sure of your motors being plenty overunity and try hard to prove it,
then why don't you test my suggested self runner by connecting your 150V
powersupply in closed loop to the generator?? This really pussles me!
Hello Ergo,
A Dino is the only way to tell how much HP an engine has got. If I hooked a 150 VDC generator up to my motor, it takes around 20% of the power to pull the load the belts pull.. I would haft to gear up the motor to pull a 150 VDC generator.
This way I can just hook up a dino up to the end shaft and get a readying.
I and in any way trying to tell you what to do , but I do now that a dino is the best way to go.
Later,,,,,,JackH
@JackH
Hi Jack, I hope things are going well with you.
Regarding what you said about a dino, what city are you located in. Maybe I could call around that area and try to find an engineer that has a dino, that would be willing to come over to your home and do a more formal test. I have hired an engineer on one occasion to do such tests on a machine that was located to far from me and the result was no OU, actually it was only 78-80% efficiency. This may be a good way to get a good report done on the motor. All we need is the HP rating, volts in, amps in. That would say alot.
About trying to loop, you are absolutely right. The losses in all around efficiency of minimum 20% on the gears, then the inefficiency of the generator itself would not be a good way to show this.
Using a DC generator even if you used this with a straight drive to generator coupling, finding the right dc generator that can produce 300 vdc at the available RPM is not an easy task at all. The other option is to use a lower voltage but higher amperage dc generator and feed this into a 300 volt battery bank. This would generate more losses.
The other option of using an AC generator and a bridge rectifier would introduce even more losses. If you try to just send the generator AC back into the AC side of a bridge rectifier that is also being feed from the original source feed AC from the mains line, trying to unplug one and plug the other, this may cause phasing issues that your motor may not like, unless if your motor has a good rotation that it can maintain on the generator for a second without any power applied.
So I do agree with you that a dino test is the only real method to determine hp/watts relationship. There is only one real nut to crack. Once it is done, you can always work to loop it but not to prove anything since the proof will already be in hand. There must be thousands of guys trying to loop motive drive to generators systems and they all know about the losses. I have tried it myself too many times.
Also, please update us on the patent status. Is it coming along? Once you get your patent, I am with a Quebec group that may be interested in making a first test unit then speak with you about licensing. One of our members has a complete machine shop making medical devices and has already said yes to making a trial unit once the patent is issued. Hang in there.
hello Jack !
great job anyhow ! I'd only like to make one suggestion.
I've have read something a while ago that smaller the motor is the efficiency allso drops, but still I think You should go
for smaller motor (arround 100W of mechanicall output), then make it closed loop with some 40-50W dinamo (generator),
and put some 10W lightbulb (just for the show). Pack this all as demonstration - desktop "Toy" and You could sell it to
very large audience of people...that way you could cut the expenses for material and make some profit...and much more.
all the best to You
Perihelion Labs
Igor Knitel
Hello wattsup,
Well I am just about to try anything. If you have a guy that can put a dino on it an give it a try, I 'll work with him. I may be able to travel somewhat to.
I built this engine for a car, but it needs to be dinoed. I one that I would build one for each back wheel, and a transmichen on each motor. But I have used all the magnet on one motor, And I have also run out of silicon steel to make the plates with.
Hello wizkycho,
The smaller motors are not overunity. The one I made with one inch magnets. With 2'x2'x6' magnets was overunity. This motor I am building now uses 2'x2'x2' magnets.
Later,,,,,,,JackH
@JackH
Hey Jack,
Before I can do anything to find someone to do a dino test locally, we would still need to know the status of your patent and if it is about to go through since it has been way over a month now. What is the point to send someone to your place if there is no patent to then be able to talk about the motor openly. Do you understand?
Now I see you are working on a car motor but again, what's the point if there is no patent to protect it, and without a patent, you will not go into the devices finer points, building plans/designs, etc.
Heloo All,
I found out the wright way to build these engines is with the valve sideways. There was around low RPM with it this way.
Hello All,
I also found out that tese motor run at a mush hier RPM the other way. I wound two coils and this thing is almost inpossable to stop.
I also reyed without the magnet, it slowed dow around 800 RPM
Later,,,,JackH
Nice to see some progress Jack. From your typing style you don't sound very healthy though.
Hello broil,
My speech has nothing to do with my illness. I was a high school dropout.
My parents run a daring farm, I was expected to stay hop an milk the Kales
Later,,,,,,Jack
This is the animated gif of Hildebrandt Valve with 6 pole estator 3 pole rotor simulated flux with software femm
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbyfiles.storage.live.com%2Fy1pvmwrJS3-flVulO6sScawXnWPdFnsQ329tCVCKE11SxS9GDpCuCnvJqSQ4qIqlMM2&hash=cf7bd5d76224cdc69fb6ec327b4d1a3d6afc2d9d)
The file is the Power Curve for 60 degree of rotation of the rotor.
HELLO ALL,
All the time the points are closed then or not pulses . I use no pulses agates the points
Later,,,,JackH
Hello All,
This is Jack W Hildenbrand Motor. http://www.genesis-corp.co.jp/type2.html
How dew you think there are going to get a USA patent on it.
Later,,,,,JackH
hi
i think it depends, who applied first and what similarities will US patent office find. It will be very subjective.
Quote from: JackH on November 05, 2008, 05:38:19 PM
Hello All,
This is Jack W Hildenbrand Motor. http://www.genesis-corp.co.jp/type2.html
How dew you think there are going to get a USA patent on it.
Later,,,,,JackH
Don't worry Jack.
They allready have many US patents, just use google patents and search for Sanshiro Ogino. They are also building a hub motor cycle motor with Axle corporation of Japan.
However, the difference in the motor design would allow yours to be approved. If both motors were stood up on there ends, there motor switching device would be vertically arranged around the rotor, whereas yours would be horizontal arranged around several rotor. The main difference being that your switching unit has extension arms and theres doesn't.
Regards, Larry
Hello All,
I have been of line for a while , by borthher try to instal OAL on my computers.
Happy Thanksgiving and Marry Ckristmas to all.
My patent number is 7453341, JacK W Hildenbrand, I finally just got it tiday.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Hello All,
I finely got all the tear coils wound today and I nee to balance the rotor, And place the point it it yet.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Quote from: JackH on November 24, 2008, 09:58:41 PM
Hello All,
I have been of line for a while , by borthher try to instal OAL on my computers.
Happy Thanksgiving and Marry Ckristmas to all.
My patent number is 7453341, JacK W Hildenbrand, I finally just got it tiday.
Later,,,,,,JackH
Hi Jack,
Thanks for info on your granted patent, congratulations!
(it is interesting that patent examiners did not reject the patent application due to overunity examples (sixth and seventh tests) you included.)
Happy Thanksgiving and good health!
rgds, Gyula
Very professional patent, congratulations on getting it done!
Don't know if this link will still work but here it is:
http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat7453341.pdf (http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat7453341.pdf)
Regards,
Steven
Hi !
What a victory, this is truly giant step for freedom... :D
This is mankind steping out if mud for the first time after thousends of years.
...it is time for mass materialization of this patent.
CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!!!! to You Hildenbrand
all the best
Wiz
Hey Jack,
Congradulations on getting the Patent. I'm proud of you. I am still here, though haven't posted lately.
Trying to survive this messed up economy. I'd still be happy to work with whomever you designate to get this hooked up to a Dyno.
Keep up the good work,
Your freind,
Carl
Way to go Jack!
That sure must be an incredible feeling of accomplishment!
I'm so very glad that I read about your patent here,
rather than here:http://www.patentlysilly.com (http://www.patentlysilly.com)
all the best,
tak
@JackH
Well Jack, congratulations on all counts both for your patent and also that we all hope your health is getting better, and now, maybe with the patent in hand this will lower your potential stress level. I am sure all here that helped out in our small way are feeling proud indeed.
This is truly a pivotal moment in the history of Overunity.Com where a member now has a genuine patent in hand (although against our main precepts) but regardless in your case the decision to patent is obviously the best one to take given the nature of the beast.
So......... now what. Consider that from the first day your ever thought of this idea and all the journeys you had to take to get to this point, you now have 5% of the work done. The remaining work to be done is rather tremendous and will definitely demand more of both your attention and energies to get this motor on the market.
I will be talking to my local group of people to see, since the motor is now patented and can be openly discussed, if there is interest in replicating the motor and afterward consider possibly manufacturing in Quebec once the replication had been duly tested. This brings me to my main question.
Do you have any Autocad drawings of the unit that would make it possible to load into a CNC machine to make the parts. My group has one member that owns a complete machining facility and they currently produce medical grade metal parts. I think once accepted by the group we could have a unit made rather quickly, wind the coils and get this unit tested ASAP.
You can PM me if you like anytime.
Again great news and let's see this motor on the market. The time has come.
wattsup
Congrats on the patent Jack.
Happy Thanksgiving and Christmas to you and yours. !!
Jon
Hello All,
I finally got the cam made, I am on thee last coils , should tack me an out one day to dot it Than you very much for alll your patents.
Watttup, I only had one thing on my mind, Were do you take this motor to have it dino testes.
Later,,,,,Jack H
Please check the topic in the half baked section "Why does mass slow time" on page 8 post # 72 and # 73. These 2 posts explains how to build a magnetic motor that requires no input and delivers unlimited energy. I know this sounds too incredible to believe, but observations and what is currently known to be correct in physics is explained. This will not be a waste of your time. This is for real. This is not a joke. I do not mean to hijack this thread and I will not post to it again unless I have something to contribute to this topic.
Thanks,
Gravityblock
Quote from: gravityblock on January 11, 2009, 05:04:08 PM
Please check the topic in the half baked section "Why does mass slow time" on page 8 post # 72 and # 73. These 2 posts explains how to build a magnetic motor that requires no input and delivers unlimited energy. I know this sounds too incredible to believe, but observations and what is currently known to be correct in physics is explained. This will not be a waste of your time. This is for real. This is not a joke. I do not mean to hijack this thread and I will not post to it again unless I have something to contribute to this topic.
Thanks,
Gravityblock
Well I am glad you think so. I have read the two posts plus much of the lead up to that and there
is no information given that would enable me to even know what you talking about, let alone build
something....?
Ron
@JackH
Hey Jack. Just a little post to see if you are doing OK with your health and also to see if you have had any other developments on your recent patent or if anyone has managed to do some formal testing. Hope all is well.
JavckH Ase patsey Ahway.
Jackh ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Thabks
KackH haspsway sarc
are you saying Jack has pasted away, as in he died?
if so, who are you?
tom
I think you will find out that this message is from Jack, Jack's spelling was always original, possibly a form of dyslexia, from which I also suffer from, thank god for the spelling check in Word. I have not posted in this column for several months, but I would like to congratulate him on his patent, I should have don't it earlier. I have always admired him for his superior workmanship. The illness Jack is suffering from can go in stops and starts and I suspect his condition has deteriorated during the last 3 months and he can no longer work on his motor and that is the reason that he has not posted because he has nothing to post. He is also most likely very depressed. I know one or two of his admirers who post on this thread live not too far from him and have had contact with him, so why not a couple of you pop over and see the old lad and find out what is happening. I am certain that he would appreciate the company, and it would cheer him up. I would do it myself but Holland is a little too far. Jack hold in there there is a hell of a lot of admiration for you especially here in Europe.
Deep Regards
Yorkshire Miner
;D
His last post is very worrisome indeed. If anyone here is local, please call him or stop by and let us know how he is doing. Man oh man, JackH is well loved here to the max. That post may have been made by his wife. I don't know but I am worried.
Quote from: yorkshireminer on February 18, 2009, 01:30:03 PM
I know one or two of his admirers who post on this thread live not too far from him and have had contact with him, so why not a couple of you pop over and see the old lad and find out what is happening. I am certain that he would appreciate the company, and it would cheer him up. I would do it myself but Holland is a little too far. Jack hold in there there is a hell of a lot of admiration for you especially here in Europe.
Deep Regards
yes it is a good idea !
any news from Jack ?
take care
La patente de flynn ya no es valida despues de esto. Cualquiera puede construir un diseño como el de flynn sin tener que pagar licencia.
Flynn's patent is not valid after this! Anyone is free to build this system without royalty.
The patent is from 1948, now is open source, la patente es de 1948 ahora es libre.
Everybody: Ya tienen las manos libres!, allready have the hands free!
US patent 2.446.446
http://www.google.com/patents?id=Nb5qAAAAEBAJ&dq=2446446 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=Nb5qAAAAEBAJ&dq=2446446)
I am Bill Hildenbrand, Jacks brother. I'm sorry to say that Jack passed away on March 10th,2009. His wife and grandkids are doing fine. If anyone has any questions let me know and I will try answering you.
Bill,
Sorry to hear about Jack. He was a gentleman and well respected here. Our condolences from all here at ou.
Will someone be carrying on with Jack's work?
Thanks for letting us know.
Regards,
.99
@Bill H.
I knew something was out of the ordinary lately especially with his last post. He was slowly sliding away and I hope he did not suffer in the end.
I would like to extent our sincerest and most heartfelt condolences from me and everyone at overunity.com who got to know Jack and his tremendous work. Jack was part of our family here and was looked up to by all. His work ethic and his talents as a builder are undeniable and we are all going to miss him tremendously.
I hope his work will live on and if there is anything you need in this regard to help you please let me know by direct PM or on the forum. We all believed in Jack and in his fantastic motor designs. We had all helped him in the last efforts and only wish his motors and technology are not forgotten.
Jack Hildenbrand was the only real member here that had a motor that was producing more torque then the actual energy consumption under classical theory and practice. The world needs his device and needs to know about Jack and his work.
I sincerely hope that his machine shop will be preserved and if not, that you can please take a long video to document his shop and his work areas. It would be a tremendous loss to all if all his work, designs and systems were just tossed aside and forgotten. I do not think he would have wanted that. Jack was a true OUer at heart, in mind and most importantly in practice.
Jack we are going to miss you. Rest in peace.
Sincerely,
wattsup
:'(
Yeah, this is sad, but not surprising, considering his illness.
It's funny though you know, it looks now like Jack's last post here was bit of sarcastic humour on his part, with him telling us he'd passed away. That makes me smile. It was just his body that got messed up, his mind and spirit were active to the end.
That's all I want to say at the moment, there are some questions that should be asked, but this is just too sad.
Thanks Jack.
And thanks too Bill for keeping us informed.
Les.
Perhaps Jacks last post was just a smokescreen to take our focus of his motor?
The post of him passing away was just to theatrical to feel like a genuine post.
Anyway, have there been any more news regarding Jack? I can't find any on the web.
Anyone in contact with his brother, maybe?
@all
Hello all. Today I took some time to try and look into Jack's device and also to try and speak with anyone from his family, either his wife or brother to see how they are and also how they have managed with Jack's device/patent.
So far, I have not been able to locate anyone.
The only address available is the one on the patent which is located here;
http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/Inventors/Jack%20W%20Hildenbrand/patent-7453341/
I found the home telephone number by doing an address look-up that was under (I imagine his wife's name - Katherine) and called but it is no longer in service.
I looked up his brother Bill and found one in Texas but that number is no longer in service either, hmmmmmmm, and I don't even know if that is his brother's telephone number or not.
I have not read anything new about Jack's device anywhere and feel it is time to try and contact the family and see if there is anything I/we can do to push his device forward.
If anyone out there has the true detective skills, I would really appreciate it if you can take a look at this and PM me with any information you may find out that may help me to contact those concerned. or of anyone lives near his home, maybe try and find out more info.
Yes there is the question of respecting the families possible wish for privacy in their time of grief for the loss of Jack, but I also know for a fact that Jack would have wanted us to know what is happening with his device.
@sterlinga
If you read this, Jacks motor is it. Jack was far from being a Mylower. Ouch. Nothing else should matter in the short term but his motor. We need free energy now before the power mongers go into their next "F*$k up the world mode". Oh they are always in that mode, sorry, my mistake. lol
Hi wattsup,
Have you written to his brother via this forum a Personal Message? Maybe he still has the e-mail address he had in June, when he informed us officially, see here:
Quote from: Bill H. on June 08, 2009, 12:09:27 AM
I am Bill Hildenbrand, Jacks brother. I'm sorry to say that Jack passed away on March 10th,2009. His wife and grandkids are doing fine. If anyone has any questions let me know and I will try answering you.
Also, member yorkshireminer may still know some other members as he mentioned it here, I highlighted the text:
Quote from: yorkshireminer on February 18, 2009, 01:30:03 PM
I think you will find out that this message is from Jack, Jack's spelling was always original, possibly a form of dyslexia, from which I also suffer from, thank god for the spelling check in Word. I have not posted in this column for several months, but I would like to congratulate him on his patent, I should have don't it earlier. I have always admired him for his superior workmanship. The illness Jack is suffering from can go in stops and starts and I suspect his condition has deteriorated during the last 3 months and he can no longer work on his motor and that is the reason that he has not posted because he has nothing to post. He is also most likely very depressed. I know one or two of his admirers who post on this thread live not too far from him and have had contact with him, so why not a couple of you pop over and see the old lad and find out what is happening. I am certain that he would appreciate the company, and it would cheer him up. I would do it myself but Holland is a little too far. Jack hold in there there is a hell of a lot of admiration for you especially here in Europe.
Deep Regards
Yorkshire Miner
;D
I appreciate your kind efforts, thank you.
rgds, Gyula
I've been meaning to go back through the threads here and do a bit of a synopsis, ending with questions that I personally think need answering. But, I'm doubtful there'd be any point, and there are always other things to do.
I thought the principle behind Jack's motor was sound, and proven, and so figured it had a good chance of working. But of course, until it was tested further, I'd have to remain skeptical to some degree.
Just off the top of my head, and assuming the whole thing wasn't totally bogus, I'd be wanting to know what happened to all the people on the forums here who commented in favour of Jack and his motor designs. Some even contributed financially as well. Where are they now? I'd also like to know who Jack's 'investors' were. They put a lot of money into something that seems to have come to an abrupt halt. I remember Jack mentioning no-one else in his family really cared about his work, and none of them were interested in carrying on with it should he pass away. He also said he'd made contingency plans in regards to his work not remaining hidden should he suffer an untimely death (or words to that effect), but there seems to have been no result from that either...
If you believe other things he wrote here, he died of a relatively sudden illness within months of getting his motors patented, after being visited by two mysterious individuals who he thought poisoned him during that visit. If all that's true, it's an example of the worst kind of suppression conspiracy theories happening right under our noses. Because the fact is, for whatever reason, everything's gone silent. And now, either way, foul play or not, no-one really knows if the guy's dead or alive, what's happened to his technology or if it really worked as claimed, and hardly anyone even cares. Just as hardly anyone even cared test his theories while he was still around. Including me, I'll admit, using the excuse of lack of resources and skills to do so.
Not for the first time, I'm left wondering if people really want free energy or not. It's like there's some fear of success thing going on. I mean, here it is, you want to get over the sticky spot? Arrange some magnets between some slabs of metal and apply eight volts and your magnets will get four times stronger, switch off the eight volts (or whatever it was) and your magnets return to their previous strength.
If you can't do something with that, besides using them in space boots so you can walk up the walls in zero gravity on early Apollo space missions (before they get replaced by something much less effective but not prone to other uses, like free-energy devices), then stuff it, have another Mylow, there's bound to be one along shortly.
Sorry, nothing personal, just venting now. It's a bit frustrating. I'm remembering now how Jack was his own worst enemy too. There were definitely inconsistencies in what he said, which gave cause for doubt. And he really wasn't a good communicator. And he did commit himself to the money or nothing route, not seeing there could be other ways to benefit, even financially. So, yeah, what do you expect, it's just one of those things.
I guess it would be good if someone could actually confirm the guy's dead, like through formal records or something, as at least some doubts about this whole saga could then be put to rest. And thanks Wattsup for trying to call on the known numbers and for reviving the topic. Was it all for nothing? Was it all bullshit, was the old guy just kidding himself, and us? Or was it real, and is it really that easy for such technology to fall by the wayside or be suppressed? I don't know.
Les.
Hi, old Honk here.
@lwh, This is some very good questions you bring forward.
I can clear up a few things but I'm just as curious on what really happened as the rest of us.
His motors does exist for real. He built them himself by hard work and lots of sweat.
But are they really overunity? I'm far from convinced myself. Here's the issues that bother me.
1. He mentioned in one of his forum replies that it took the motor about 2-3 minutes to rev up to 4000 rpm. :o
I know he was using a solid and heavy rotor core of non oriented steel.
If his motor could deliver 2-3hp output as stated, then it should accelerate the core mass in no time.
It shouldn't take several minutes and this makes me believe his motors lack torque and isn't overunity.
2. On every new motor he started building he often said "this one should make it".??
Why on earth would he say something like this and build another motor time after time if they where overunity?
3. His test setup and knowhow was a bit peculiar and not as straight forward as commonly used in motor testing.
I don't know the reason for this. But it will contribute to mystify his motors and some people will continue to
use strange test methods if or when they try to replicate the Hilden-Brand motor in order to find overunity.
But motors are so very straight forward. There is nothing mysterious about them. This goes for the Hilden
motors as well. The only thing needed is a good portion of sane knowhow to fully test their efficiency.
4. In my email correspondence with Jack, he was very determined find out if I was a "true believer"!!
In my book it sounded a bit strange. When it comes to motors there should be nothing but facts.
Build it, test it, judge it. Then improve the design using the collected data. It's as simple as that.
Hard believing is often a mind clogger preventing a person from seeing the facts.
Most of all I would like us, the forum guys, to get access to one of his motors, preferably a larger one.
Then it should be put to scrutiny using real and well established test methods.
The main examiner could be Mark Dansie. It is his "job" to find and evaluate potential overunity devices.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=profile;u=8133
Until we can arrange this we will never get any clarity on the Hilden-Brand saga and it will become a myth.
Thanks for the PM's. Yes I sent Bill Hildenbrand a PM yesterday in fact and already know Jacks home address and his e-mails. The phone at the home address is not in service so the leads are very thin to go by. I did not email his e-mails simply because now I am sure they are not checked.
I think we need a member that has the right resources to sleuth into this further. @sterlinga time to pull some strings.
I also think we, or mainly I, or better still we in general, made a big mistake in taking so long and not being in contact with his wife much sooner then this. While I should have been keeping on this from the time I learned he got sick. I should have pursued this much more aggressively regardless of the grief involved. Maybe this is too long of a wait now. Hmmmmmmmm. Hindsight is always 20/20. If @sterlinga got involved with Jack as he did with Mylow, we could have known much more by now.
Maybe the only thing to do now is to take his patent and bring it to a few machine shop guys I know and see if they can do a close enough replication of the device regardless of a patent and let the chips fall were they may. Or try to use this technology in another manner to make a motionless generator something like Thane was working on. Hey, were is he anyways? If the energy passing in the cores is 4 to 8 times greater with his system, then pulsing it with other pickup coils inline on the core should do the trick well enough. I could probably work on this on the side while I still do my TPU work.
@lwh
Yes I get your point. It is difficult to gauge when a guy is really bent on trying to make money with free energy. You know I had written to Jack a few times and had offered to make a prototype here in Montreal to then get it tested at McGill University, but he did not give any more follow up on that. All I needed was some good enough drawings.
We are like a bunch of monkeys and one monkey finds a stack of juicy fruits. Of course he, an ape, a rather dumb sub species instinctively knows that he must share the bounty. This will afford him respect, harmony, prominence, confidence and a more then generous prosperity in the group. This will also bypass all the stress and anxiety and dangers involeved in trying to keep it all to himself. Apes are not so dumb after all.
But no, man who is the sophisticated and civilized one says "hey not so fast". Let them wait while I build a fortress around the juicy fruit. But while the first brick gets the mortar, the fruit has rotted and everything is gone. So let them wait cause I will be living forever. That's man for y'a. What a waste. The world generates a Jack Hildenbrand and our system prevents him from achieving his greatness. Meanwhile we spend millions on studying frog manure, eating dead food, blowing ourselves up and then crying for the good life.
We forgot that everyone is born into this ONE World and we are all in this together. Everyone is interrelated. What I discover, you discover. What you discover, we discover, and, by this manner we can all benefit from all the mass, instead of each one benefiting from his own crumbs. Oh but I will live forever. There's always more time. A patent will not take that long. But in reality, patents are for the rich. They can afford to pay for them, they can afford to wait for them, they can keep control while they make them and they can afford to prosecute to protect them. The small guy does not stand a chance. We go to school and learn that we must step on the other guy instead of working in tandem with the world. What a farce.
You get a patent for 17 years. You think you are protected. Big f*&ckin deal. There is a 9 in 10 chance that within the first 2-3 years, your device will become obsolete anyways. So why the f*&k do people waste so much damn time with patents, paying, waiting and wasting the worlds time just beats me. Why not just make the damn thing for the three years while the doing is good, not waste time, not worry about others and just do it, NOW. In the end, it will still eventually become obsolete and if it does not become obsolete, then all the more power to you.
Well my take on the Hildenbrand style motor is that it is not at all mysterious or difficult to understand. Also nothing is hidden and could be build right now. The only main pain is that it is far beyond the building abilities of likely everybody other here. And you can;t really put it into the hands of a machine shop who have no real experience with electric stuff/motors unless you supervise it yourself. Plus it will be very expensive. Jack had a very well equipped shop with multiple very big mills and lathes. Plus he had access to bulk sheet transformer laminations and had a sheet metal cutter table. You must be able to cut your own laminations of else don't even try a replication. In the end money is the only real limitation for a good replication. This is a device which does not really have anything hidden, but is just expensive to build. I have a well equipped small shop with mill, lathe and such, but building stuff on Jacks scale is not doable for me.
Then there is the issue that the tech itself is perhaps a bit doubtful still. I still have high hopes for Jacks motors and performance. But I must say in my replication that even getting the magnets to even switch a little was a little shady area. In most of the input ranges adding the magnets does not much to the total torque. Only when you really spank the core to very high input levels there was an rpm increase when magnets were added, but also an amp draw increase... It was all pretty unclear. Also the magnets were bouncing on the surface of the cores. Meaning that the core were spanked so hard that the magnets were literally almost repelled from the core surface, which could cause demagnetization over time.
Here's an interesting development, somewhat related.
Forum member Winsonali posted a diagram in this thread - http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7987.560 showing a design similar(?) to Jack's, based on a patent from 1959.
From what I can remember, Jack only referred to patents from General Electric (or Westinghouse, I can't remember which one) as being similar to his. Would have been interesting to hear Jack's opinion on this one.
Would be interested too to hear people's opinions on whether this design from Winsonali would be easier for others to make than Jack's.
Les.
Yes this whole approach of magnet assisted cores goes way back, but most of them are expired, and I wonder if any has ever got into a real application. So a lot of re patenting has been going on. Not that patents are of any real value.
But back to the device. The whole question that in my opinion has yet to be solidly proven, is does the magnet really provide a net gain. In a dynamic motor or transformer like situation that is!
Because in steady-on situation it can easily be demonstrated that such a structure provides a 4X(max) holding force then when compared to the coil alone.
Like so:
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/MagnetExtraPower.wmv (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/MagnetExtraPower.wmv)
Thanks for the video Nali. Is it one of yours? I seem to remember it from earlier on in one of the Hildenbrand threads.
Obviously I don't have an answer for your question as to whether this effect can be applied to produce a gain in a motor or transformer. I was however under the impression it was the timing of the switching that was the stumbling block in those kinds of applications.
Not being very knowledgeable in any of the sciences relating to the search for free energy, maybe I take too simplistic a view of things like the varying of a magnets strength as shown in the video you provided. But it seems to me, if all you need is a 1.25volt\.8amp power source to at least double a magnets strength, there should be some way to make those magnets move something that can generate that 1.25volt\.8amp or more. Is this too simplistic an assumption? Isn't it just a mechanical engineering (which I also know nothing about) problem?
Also, in the initial stages, does a device utilizing this switching effect have to be a motor as such in order to prove that a self-running motor could be made by using that effect? I'm thinking along the lines of a gravity-wheel type setup, which, incidentally, Jack also said he had a simple design for but which he never came forward with.
Sorry if my questions are too obvious. I'm just trying to understand why even an arrangement of devices like those shown in your video couldn't be arranged to generate the power required to (effectively) switch the magnets on and off, and so, make the arrangement self-run.
Les.
@Nali2001
Yep your video(s) were pivotal in us understanding Jacks device.
I am also curious,in your video, the bar with the magnets that you are adding to the U core, What if you simply wind a coil on that bar, even only 20 turns of 14 gauge insulated electrical wire. Wind on the bar between the magnets, then connect the added coil to a capacitor of good mF value via a charge diode. Then pulse the U core coil and check the cap with your meter if it will rise in voltage. If you are only pulsing 1.5 volts into the U core coil and you manage to raise the voltage in the capacitor to higher then that, then there is a good sign this is a way to go.