The "another way to fight lorentz" thread inspired me to think about the following idea.
You have a homopolar motor attached to a bigger wheel. When you produce a current forces start to appear, one of these acts on the "outside" circuit, which in this case is attached to the bigger wheel and might produce a torque. Since the homopolar motor is allowed to rotate this force doesn't balance out since the counter force is causing the magnet+disc to rotate. So according to my speculation the bigger wheel should start to move around. When it starts to move some undesired things might happen but at least you have created angular momentum from a closed system.
so essentially you are making a variation that would be more beneficial as a motor, and to make the machine from the other thread work in reverse?
initially i thought it wouldn't work, but after looking at your set up im not so sure now
would it be different if the hp motor was much larger in diameter? obviously it would need to be done in a manner that would allow it to rest above the bigger wheel without interfering with the axle? i feel as if this might make a difference but i am not sure yet whether it would be beneficial or not, however i am sure you have put some thought into this
those are only my initial thoughts, id be interested to hear what you think of making this go in reverse as a generator
Creating an angular momentum may be the key to overcoming or using the counter torque to our advantage. If we think along these lines, then maybe we can kick some doors open that have never been opened before.
GB
I modified an image by DreamThinkBuild. The rotating axle & the large center disc will rotate CW. This will cause the magnets to rotate CCW on their own axles. Add an external circuit and a small disc to all of the magnets. When current is being taken off the small discs, the counter torque will be CW which is in the same direction as the rotation of the axle and large center disc. If that doesn't work, then have the magnets alternate in poles.
Edit: That won't work, lol.
I believe that this idea is very unique as it exploits a special force. We are mostly used to mechanical forces from springs, gravity or even electrical charges. But unlike those forces this force "flips" when it crosses a certain point. This flipping causes a torque on one system and a linear force on another.
A magnet can be represented by a loop of wire with a certain current going through it. Using this concept it's much easier to see the forces in play. I have attached an illustration of this.
Of course this should not only create angular momentum from inside the system, but also a uni directional force. This is done by mirroring the system over to the other side.
Quote from: broli on November 19, 2009, 08:50:20 AM
I believe that this idea is very unique as it exploits a special force.
Are you referring to the drawing you first posted in this thread, or the drawing I modified from DreamThinkBuild (DTB)?
There may be a way to brute force the counter torque with a gear. It's called a worm gear. In a worm-and-gear set, the worm can always drive the gear. However, if the gear attempts to drive the worm, it may or may not succeed. I know the gear will introduce friction into the system, but I'm sure the friction would be much less than taking the full force of the counter torque. Just a thought.
GB
These are my word of encouragement: Keep up the good work.
@broli:
Two simple questions for you. In your illustration, if the magnet wasn't glued to the disc and the magnet could freely rotate on a separate axle, would the magnet rotate when current is flowing in the small disc? Would the small disc rotate?
If you can't answer this question, then maybe someone else can. My previous question to you in my other post is still unanswered. I am sincere at getting to the bottom of this counter torque issue, but we need to have a discussion if I am to learn anything.
A simple yes or no to those questions will be good. This will help me to understand the forces at play.
Thanks,
GB
Quote from: gravityblock on November 19, 2009, 09:14:36 AM
Are you referring to the drawing you first posted in this thread,
Yes.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 20, 2009, 04:34:23 PM
@broli:
Two simple questions for you. In your illustration, if the magnet wasn't glued to the disc and the magnet could freely rotate on a separate axle, would the magnet rotate when current is flowing in the small disc? Would the small disc rotate?
Here are some cases.
Case 1: magnet and disc glued
Result: magnet+disc rotates and a force acting on outside circuit.
Case 2: both magnet and disc are attached to independent axles
Result: magnet will remain stationary while disc rotates
Reason: Disc and magnet exert force on each other, this causes disc to rotate...but outside circuit also exerts force on magnet, thus canceling out first force cause by disc, resulting in magnet remaining stationary.
Case 3: magnetless setup
Result: http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/bbmotor.html (minus the heat theory crap)
Reason: When disc is given initial spin weak but present magnetic field is made, this causes a force on outside circuit and results in torque on disc. Stefan shows that 100's of amperes are needed, in my views this is logical since the magnetic field caused by initial rotation is tiny. Of course this can have some interesting anomalies since what is causing the back emf now, if there even is such a thing.
You won't find these cases or reasons on wikipedia.
Edit: added another case.
@broli:
Thank you for the answers. The "results" are what I expected and just wanted verification so I am on the right path. I'm starting with the basics and will be moving to more complicated issues.
You said the magnet would rotate in Case 2 due to the force being exerted on it by the disc, but the force from the external circuit would be in the opposite direction on the magnet, thus canceling the forces with no net rotation of the magnet.
That makes total sense, but here's the catch. If the magnetic field of the magnet remains stationary while the magnet is rotating, then why would the magnet rotate if the magnetic field had a force exerted on it? Either way, if the magnetic field rotates or remains stationary due to the forces being exerted on it from the disc and/or external circuit, the magnet wouldn't rotate.
So, my next question is, Does the force from the disc and external circuit act on the electric field of the magnet or the magnetic field of the magnet? If the forces act's on the electric field of the magnet, then the magnet's rotation is canceled. If the forces act's on the magnetic field of the magnet, then the rotation of the magnetic field is either canceled or it remains stationary with either force. The importance of this should become clear when we discuss the counter torque, BEMF, and other issues.
I appreciate you taking the time to answer these questions.
GB
I guess what I'm getting at is magnetic fields may not have a force on other magnetic fields. The magnetic field of one magnet may have a force on another magnet's electric field and vice versa.
We've been taught that like poles repel each other and opposite poles attract each other. This is true, but the forces may not be between the magnetic fields. The forces may be between the electric fields and magnetic fields of each magnet. The magnetic field of one magnet will re-orientate the spins of the electrons in another magnet, thus the magnetic field changes when the electron's spins change.
Take two axially magnetized magnets. Bring the magnets together where they're in attraction mode. Now, one magnet will be entirely a North pole and the other magnet will be entirely a South pole. The spin of the electrons had to be re-orientated in each magnet in order for each magnet to lose a pole. This is due to the magnetic fields of each magnet having a force on the other's electric field.
It's the same with a magnet and a metal piece. The magnetic field of the magnet will align the electrons in the metal piece where the metal piece is attracted to the magnet. Using a different pole of the magnet will align the electrons in the metal with an opposite spin, thus they attract each other with either pole. This is a monopole force similar to gravity, except gravity works on the atoms instead of the electrons.
The magnetic fields of each magnet may interact with each other, such as connecting or disconnecting to each other or diverting each other's paths, but I don't believe there is a force between them. The force may be between the magnetic fields and moving charges.
Maybe I'm learning what everyone else already knows or maybe it's not correct. I'm in search for the truth, that is all. I want to know what is correct so that knowledge can be properly applied.
Thanks,
GB
Hi GB,
Quote from: gravityblock on November 21, 2009, 07:57:06 AM
I guess what I'm getting at is magnetic fields may not have a force on other magnetic fields. The magnetic field of one magnet may have a force on another magnet's electric field and vice versa.
This is the first time I read a permanent magnet has an electric field, besides its normal magnetic fields. In my present understanding it has no any electric field.
Quote
We've been taught that like poles repel each other and opposite poles attract each other. This is true, but the forces may not be between the magnetic fields. The forces may be between the electric fields and magnetic fields of each magnet. The magnetic field of one magnet will re-orientate the spins of the electrons in another magnet, thus the magnetic field changes when the electron's spins change.
I think we have to differentiate two cases here: one for the repel and one for the attract case. For the repel case, I do not think the reorientation of the electrons' spins in one magnet happens when another magnet comes close to it, if it did, then one magnet could change the magnetic properties of the other in this repel mode, yes I know this can happen when you "treat" an old BaFe ferrite magnet with a very strong Neo magnet, but normally this does not happen to modern magnets.
In repel mode, the flux of one magnet does not even reach to the surface of the other magnet, not to mention penetration, just because all the flux lines divert each other away from their 'source'. This is why there seems to be no eddy current heat losses developed in magnets made of good current conducting materials i.e. metals when you use them in repel mode wrt each other.
For the attract case see next below.
Quote
Take two axially magnetized magnets. Bring the magnets together where they're in attraction mode. Now, one magnet will be entirely a North pole and the other magnet will be entirely a South pole. The spin of the electrons had to be re-orientated in each magnet in order for each magnet to lose a pole. This is due to the magnetic fields of each magnet having a force on the other's electric field.
Well, when you join two magnets like you described above in attract mode, then the Bloch walls of each magnet gets shifted to the middle of their joined length and the two magnets have become one magnet as if you had manufactured a single magnet with double the length. If you join magnets like that with different lengths, the Bloch wall will develop somewhere in-between the total length. But I do not think that each magnet has influenced the other one's electric field but the electron spins or magnetic domains. However, I am uncertain here with the question of eddy current and hysteresis losses in this moving Bloch wall cases, probably there are some such losses if the joinings of the magnets are done dynamically.
Quote
It's the same with a magnet and a metal piece. The magnetic field of the magnet will align the electrons in the metal piece where the metal piece is attracted to the magnet. Using a different pole of the magnet will align the electrons in the metal with an opposite spin, thus they attract each other with either pole. This is a monopole force similar to gravity, except gravity works on the atoms instead of the electrons.
Well I agree here, though your last sentence may be like that.
Quote
The magnetic fields of each magnet may interact with each other, such as connecting or disconnecting to each other or diverting each other's paths, but I don't believe there is a force between them. The force may be between the magnetic fields and moving charges.
If magnetic fields (may) interact with each other, say divert each other's path, then the force ought to be between them because with any one magnet's field is missing (say you place an iron plate between two repel magnets) then the (repel) force disappears. Maybe this is not a good explanation for this...
And where are the moving charges in a permanent magnet?
Quote
Maybe I'm learning what everyone else already knows or maybe it's not correct. I'm in search for the truth, that is all. I want to know what is correct so that knowledge can be properly applied.
Thanks,
GB
I agree that much is not known on magnetism and we all should learn and experience a lot to explore further secrets.
rgds, Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on November 21, 2009, 05:42:55 PM
This is the first time I read a permanent magnet has an electric field, besides its normal magnetic fields. In my present understanding it has no any electric field.
An electric field is made up of charges. A static electric field are stationary charges with no magnetic field. A moving electric field are moving charges with a magnetic field. You can't have magnetic fields without charges moving. When the spins of the electrons (moving charges) are aligned in the same direction, then the magnetic field strengthens. If they're randomly aligned, then the magnetic fields get canceled by each other. Bottom line is, no moving electric field in a PM, then no magnetic fields in a PM.
Quote from: gyulasun on November 21, 2009, 05:42:55 PM
In repel mode, the flux of one magnet does not even reach to the surface of the other magnet, not to mention penetration, just because all the flux lines divert each other away from their 'source'. This is why there seems to be no eddy current heat losses developed in magnets made of good current conducting materials i.e. metals when you use them in repel mode wrt each other.
Contrary to what most believe, the field lines may connect to each other in repel mode and may reach to the surface of the other magnet. In attraction mode, the field lines may disconnect from each other and get diverted. Why do I say this, cause I've watched it happen in real time with magnets. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-dbGUcnFaI&feature=channel Pay careful attention to the "Legend" at the start of the video. Then watch how the field lines connect and disconnect to each other. The black voids are the poles. Sometimes like poles will join together and form larger voids. Watch all the videos from Sirzerp. There is a lot to learn in these videos.
Quote from: gyulasun on November 21, 2009, 05:42:55 PM
And where are the moving charges in a permanent magnet?
You must accept that there are moving charges in a PM. Without moving charges in a PM, then you can't have a magnetic field. "A moving charge creates a magnetic field". This is very basic. "A changing magnetic field moves a charge". If the charge is stationary, and a changing magnetic field passes this stationary charge that doesn't have a magnetic field and causes it to move, then the magnetic fields must have a force on charges (electric fields). Once those charges start to move, then the charges are induced with a magnetic field that is in opposition to the electric field of the magnetic field that induced it. This all makes sense to me. Sometimes things are not as they appear to be.
GB
Opposite poles facing each other in attraction mode. As you move them together, the fields get diverted and will connect to the closest field line with a like pole.
Take a field line from a north pole of a single magnet. Divide this field line into segments at the planck scale. Each segment will be made up of like poles. Now it is easy to see that field lines of like poles connect to each other. Field lines of opposite poles do not connect to each other and gets diverted which connects to the closest field line with a like pole.
A 5th grader can understand this. Are we smarter than a 5th grader? It appears not. Brainwashing is a hard thing to overcome.
@broli:
I won't interrupt your threads anymore. Currently accepted theories can not answer my questions and I know you don't get into personal theories of others. I will leave with these thoughts.
The torque in the HPM is the counter torque produced in the HPG. The EMF produced in the HPG is the BEMF produced in the HPM.
If the forces acting on the magnet is canceled in a HPM, then the forces acting on the magnet should be canceled in the HPG. There's a missing link. Do you know where to find this missing link? I've showed you the missing link and the path, but the path is not accepted.
Hint: magnetic fields have forces on electric fields. Magnetic field of one pole has a force on the electric field of the other pole, this is what keeps the electrons moving which induces a magnetic field that has a force on the electric field of the other pole (it's a self exciting system). Oh, the electric field in an axially magnetized magnet is radial. Each pole of a magnet has it's own electric field that points in the opposite direction to the other. The electric field on a HPG disc is radial. This should make things very clear.
Take care,
GB
Hi GB,
Thanks for the youtube link on Sirzerp, will study his videos and learn from it.
I agree it is rather difficult to replace old conventional knowledge, especially if we are questioned to be smarter than a 5th grader. ;)
Regards, Gyula
Quote from: gravityblock on November 22, 2009, 01:43:18 AM
@broli:
I won't interrupt your threads anymore. Currently accepted theories can not answer my questions and I know you don't get into personal theories of others. I will leave with these thoughts.
GB
You can post and discuss as much as you like this is an open source forum after all. When I see a lot of text I usually just cut off but that doesn't mean what you are saying is not important. As you know I have been in this homopolar stuff for almost a year now trying to crack the nut with little success, most of the ideas don't even get build.
The easy way out with the homopolar motor is either shielding or an open circuit that has a magnetic field around itself. If these exist or are found a HPM/HPG would truly work without BEMF or Back torque. Sometimes I post old ideas sometimes new ones, even though I'm probably not going to build them it's best to share and maybe benefit someone else out there.
Broli,
You have an interesting point of view.
I would only hope people would not reach a conclusion so fast and remember a lot of work on this forum is work in progress.
Howard
Gravityblock,
That video you posted is a good find.
I can’t seem to help myself watching it over and over.
:D
Cheers
Howard
Quote from: WattBuilder on November 22, 2009, 08:20:58 AM
Broli,
You have an interesting point of view.
I would only hope people would not reach a conclusion so fast and remember a lot of work on this forum is work in progress.
Howard
I have not reached a conclusion so fast. I have spent almost every waking moment on a daily basis for nearly a year trying to crack this nut. All I know is something doesn't add up correctly with what we've been taught. I am almost sure there are working models here that have never been built or attempted to be proven or learn from. It's so frustrating. I wish I could build. I'll probably go insane cause I'll never know. If I didn't care, then I wouldn't be so upset. I'm close to losing my mind on this, seriously......and maybe it's clouding my thinking.
GB
Gravityblock,
It’s understandable. I don’t think you’re viewed negatively at all.
The work that were all doing can be mostly at times unrewarding. But the potential of leaving this world a better place can be humbling.
We could hope eventually things will add up or choose to become part of it.
Someone’s got to do it.
Hang in there. ;)
Howard
i like to think of it like, no one would be doing this if it were already done, or even thought of as possible