Magnets, motion and measurement

[citfta]

@ eye eye

I'm not going to take the time again, to individually rebut your misrepresentations of what other posters have said in this topic nor the time to correct the misinterpretations you constantly make of the magnet interactions represented here in the topic.

You have contributed nothing to the topic which is of sufficient value to merit toleration of the dis-information / miss- information you have presented and the disruption you represent.

Your responses to the other posters are evasive, misdirecting, distortions of their original context.   
In short, off topic, topic misdirecting, belligerent and nay saying. It is not welcomed in here.

All of this, I have already said to you.

         floor

3 thumbs up 

[Floor]

@Norman6538

Specifically... with the magnet, shapes, types and orientations I use....
ceramic, 3/8 by 7/8 by 1 7/8 inches, wafer magnets, poles on the broad faces,
both poles presented at the edges.

RO is the rotating magnet
SL is the sliding magnet

0 degrees RO is 90 degrees off from parallel to SL 

Other wise I will refer      not to degrees      but to   units of travel distance by the weight bottle,
whether RO  or SL.

When RO is at 0 deg. to SL ....  this what I generally would call neutral, in terms of either attracting or repelling force against the sliding motion of SL.

Because of magnetic domain reorientations, within the RO and SL magnets    both     there is an attraction of SL TOWARD RO.  Its is always there in magnet interactions and it effects the total amount of either attracting or repelling force present.  It is especially strong when the magnet are very near to one another. 

We normally don't know it's there because it is concealed within the larger forces of either attractions or repulsions that occur between magnets.   

When RO is at 0 degrees to SL  there is an overall neutralization of attracting and repelling forces upon SL (only in the sliding direction)..... but not upon RO in its ROtating direction.

Forces which WOULD cause SL  to rotate are present (Newton's laws still apply) but the sliding track does not allow that to happen to SL  (no SL motion = no energy spent upon SL). 

                   Along the sliding direction forces are equal and opposite / canceling. 
EXCEPT for the attracting force present due to the domain flipping.  Call it SP6538..

On my test bench, as set up,  when SL is at 5 /units of distance from RO   and   RO is at 13 deg.....

STICK SPOT 6538 will lift 130 grams on RO. as it causes  both the rotation of RO from 13 deg. to 0 deg. and.....  it will simultaneously cause the sliding of SL from 5 units of distance to 0 units of distance, without any input / weight on the SL unit.  Then it becomes SP6538 as you pull SL away from RO.

SP6538 can be either an input or an output.  This depends... our call.  IF.....

130 grams hangs upon the RO pulley while RO is at 18 deg. and SL is at 22 units of distance (22 deg. on the SL scale)... it takes an input on SL of 307 units of work, to bring SL to 0 units of distance.  This is accomplished by hanging a series of weights on the SL pulley.  Lighter and lighter weights as SL gets closer to RO.  At 5 units of distance (5 deg. SL scale) no weight is needed on the SL pulley.

We just did the lifting 130 grams times 18 deg. RO (18 units of distance times 130 grams = 2340
units of work) by applying 307 units of work on the SL.  But its no OU unless we can get every thing  back to the starting points. 

Both RO  and SL  are at zero....   RO  is at a right angle to SL (0 deg. RO).  SP6538 is in our face.
How many work units to pull SL  from 0 deg. back to 30 deg. while RO is at 0 deg RO ?
Answer...  around 404 units of work.

so.. that's 307 + 404 = 711... but there remains one other measurement to do.

Because... when the RO weight falls from 0 to 18 deg. while SL is at 22 units of distance from RO...
RO is still under some influence from the SL magnetic force..   

Therefore we must measure the work needed to rotate RO from 0 deg. to 18 deg. RO, while NO WEIGHT hangs upon the RO pulley and SL remains distant at 22 units of distance from RO.   This is equal to 1845 units of work.

307 SL input  22 to 0 deg.  SL
404 SL return input 0 to 22 deg SL (RO is at 0 deg.)
1845 RO pull down input (no 130 grams)
2556 total input

130 grams times 18 units of distance = 2340

2556 - 2340 = 216 Under Unity.... oh man bummer ... right ?

If we look at it as ...

just one input ... 130 grams times 18 deg. RO = 2340   and....
three separate outputs totaling to 2556 unit of work.... then its
216 Over Unity.  yep...

But that's not all folks.....  one can change every thing up and get 3 inputs that amount to less than the one single output instead.

I'll answer questions, but this is old news to me (5 or 6 years old now ?).

This all seems to deviate from the Coulomb model some what.

   best wishes
         floor

[norman6538]

Excellent post Floor. But one thing I question is the use of degrees. I measured the distance moved which for you would be the water bottles up or down. I don't think degrees will be equal to distance lifted or dropped.

FLOOR READ THIS. I will reveal to you how to reduce the input units.
Think of lifting a car 1 inch at a time with a lever but the car is not bound by gravity rules but magnetic rules. The first inch will be hardest and each inch thereafter will take less work.

  The input could easily be reduced by 30% and that is big.

This method becomes a "closer stronger compensator".

Norman

[Floor]

Quote 1 from Norman

But one thing I question is the use of degrees. I measured the distance moved which for you would be the water bottles up or down. I don't think degrees will be equal to distance lifted or dropped.

As long as I use degrees in stead of the conversion to milli meters for   BOTH   the RO and the SL    the distance to force ratios between RO times distance    to    SL times distance will be the same.   

                      example

                      1 to 2 ratio

                      2g to 4g  also a 1 to 2 ratio

                      2g x 4mm  to 4g x 4mm =   8  to 16 ratio  also 1 to 2 ratio

                      if each degree = 1/2 mm  then

                      2g x 8 deg.   to  4g x 8 deg.   also a 1 to 2 ratio 

                               As long as ...
the conversion factor for SL scale degrees to the SL weight bottle's actual moments,
                             is the same as,

the conversion factor for the RO scale degrees to the RO weight bottle's actual  movements,
                            which it is....  then it does not change the ratio of the work in to the work out.

This is because the pulley on the SL dial / scale has the same diameter as the the RO pulley on the RO dial / scale.

             IF the conversion factor for mm of bottle travel were 1 mm per each 0.5 degree on the scale
                                        then it would work like this 1 degree x 2 = 1mm of bottle travel
                      2g x (8deg. x 2) to 4g x (4deg. x 2)     =    2 x  16 = 4  to 4 x 8 = 32  16 to 32 or  1 to 2

next ...........
Quote 2 from Norman

FLOOR READ THIS. I will reveal to you how to reduce the input units.
Think of lifting a car 1 inch at a time with a lever but the car is not bound by gravity rules but magnetic rules. The first inch will be hardest and each inch thereafter will take less work.

The input could easily be reduced by 30% and that is big.

This method becomes a "closer stronger compensator".


                                  A compensator of sorts yes .....      You're getting it
                                  but of course, this is not where the OU cpmes from   

          You and yours stay safe
                     regards
                            floor

[Floor]

Sorry about the math / typo error

                           WRONG
             IF the conversion factor for mm of bottle travel were 1 mm per each 0.5 degree on the scale
                                        then it would work like this 1 degree x 2 = 1mm of bottle travel
                      2g x (8deg. x 2) to 4g x (4deg. x 2)     =    2 x  16 = 4  to 4 x 8 = 32  16 to 32 or  1 to 2

                           CORRECTION
             If the conversion factor for mm of bottle travel were 1 mm per each 0.5 degree on the scale
                                        then it would work like this 1 degree x 2 = 1mm of bottle travel
                      2g x (8deg. x 2) to 4g x (8deg. x 2)     =    2 x 16 = 32  to 4 x 8 = 64  32 to 64 or  1 to 2

            floor