inertial propulsion with gyroscope

[woopy]

Hi conrad

So much thank's for the usefull infos.

Tonight i tried different tracting guiding track's shapes on my vertical device .

And it seems that this shape is of utmost importance, because the last one seems to let the "twin rowing gyros device" climb on a very very little slope better than the Fiala monorotor flat rotating did .

So it seems that a forced precession (steper motor) should be probably even better

but with those gyros behaviour, who knows

Laurent

[conradelektro]

Tonight i tried different tracting guiding track's shapes on my vertical device .

And it seems that this shape is of utmost importance, because the last one seems to let the "twin rowing gyros device" climb on a very very little slope better than the Fiala monorotor flat rotating did .

So it seems that a forced precession (steper motor) should be probably even better

The shape of the tracks or "control rings" of the Fiala device (according to Figures 1 to 11, 41, 45 to 49, 51, 52 of US2011219893A1) is important because they have a very strong influence on the acceleration of the arm (carrying the gyroscope) on its circular path. The tracks allow to use the gyroscope motor also as a propelling means on the circular path. But the acceleration on the circular path has many parameters which are hard to control: friction of the axle (or roller) on the track, shape of the track, rotation speed of the axel (or roller).


My idea was to gain better control of this acceleration (and deceleration) by using a stepper motor. The drawback is the need for program control (microprocessor). Nowadays everything is program controlled (even your electric toothbrush), but it can be a problem for the layman or for someone only trained in mechanics (and not electronics).


The big question (as I often said) is whether the precession of the gyroscope (the "nodding") has to be controlled (or guided) as well? I hope not, Laurent feels that it has to be done (and he is the only one with practical experience so far, besides Mr. Harvey Fiala).


Greetings, Conrad

[woopy]

The shape of the tracks or "control rings" of the Fiala device (according to Figures 1 to 11, 41, 45 to 49, 51, 52 of US2011219893A1) is important because they have a very strong influence on the acceleration of the arm (carrying the gyroscope) on its circular path. The tracks allow to use the gyroscope motor also as a propelling means on the circular path. But the acceleration on the circular path has many parameters which are hard to control: friction of the axle (or roller) on the track, shape of the track, rotation speed of the axel (or roller).


My idea was to gain better control of this acceleration (and deceleration) by using a stepper motor. The drawback is the need for program control (microprocessor). Nowadays everything is program controlled (even your electric toothbrush), but it can be a problem for the layman or for someone only trained in mechanics (and not electronics).


The big question (as I often said) is whether the precession of the gyroscope (the "nodding") has to be controlled (or guided) as well? I hope not, Laurent feels that it has to be done (and he is the only one with practical experience so far, besides Mr. Harvey Fiala).


Greetings, Conrad

Hi conrad

This morning i stumble upon this mechanical system
https://youtu.be/ESBYdJx8X7k
It seems that depending on the axles distance and lever lenght, it is possible to get different ratio back and forth. So with a arduino to control the speed of the servo or stepper motor ?

Another test with my vertical twin gyro, i glued  a  vulcaning band on the track to see if a better grip  could improve the already good motorizing swing
And not at all. The device don't move forward any more and swing much less.
So my conclusion is that the gravity pushes the pendulum gyro faster than the rotating traction wheel does. So without the grip band the "traction wheel is no more a traction wheel and simply slide along the guiding track. So perhaps i should add a small ballbearing to help this sliding.
It seems that the vertical setup is no more a Fiala flat system at all.
So once more the rectilinear and fast motorizing swing may be horizontal or 45deg or vertical or perhaps also more than vertical and even totally negativ . fantastic.

Sofar i think have understood a bit.

Now the free precessing back track ?

I have spent long minutes to observe the device rolling on the table
For info  my new guiding track let the gyro almost "free falling" inward just after   6 o'clock of the rectilinear pendulum swing. So at about 7 o'clock the gyros are always in the swing translation but not guided so they precess brutally "inward" and they even touch each  other ( nice little cling) before entering the loooong way back in free precession up to the starting point before the new swing.
During this way back there is 1 or 2 "nutation"and during these nutations ,it seems that the rolling speed of the entire device varies a little bit.

And that i don't understand at all

You say tricky those gyros !!

ok let's go for other observations and test

Laurent

[sm0ky2]

If you look at Woopy's first devices
you can see the effect of the "nodding"
or axial-tilt


the force propagates in the direction along the length of the arm
(more accurately tangentially to where the gyro was swinging moments earlier)
the force is instigated by the change in tilt (the nod)
there is a reverse to this when it "nods"  (tilts) upwards again.
in Woopy's set-up this reverse impulse is less pronounced due to the forward
momentum given to the device during the forward impulse.


Understand that the force on the axis is always present.
any change in rotation about either of the 3 gimbles creates a change in force
on the other 2


the force we are talking about is the tilt
or 3rd gimble


When the tilt occurs and is stopped
the linear force is in the direction of the tilt.


To make an analogy, place a see-saw or similar lever vertical
On a cart (wheels or such)
With the lever actuating in the direction of motion
by applying force to the top of the lever, it tilts in that direction.
When it reaches its maximum displacement and stops - the applied force
pushes the cart forward.
Apply force to tilt the lever back the other way, when it stops the force pushes
the cart backwards.


This is similar to what the gyro does.


We can observe these forces further still in a rotating disk on a horizontal plane
with small a imbalance in the disk mass distribution
if the axle doesn't give, the device will hop,skip,and jump
as the disk tries to tilt at its axis
in this example the 2nd and 3nd axes are acting together as one
because there are no gimbles, the motion is cooperative against the horizontal rotation
The linear forces in this example are multidirectional and so there is no 'net' linear vector
it may move around but it's not "going anywhere"


It is important to understand that distinction
to manifest the forces in a linear path, we have to transfer the forces opposing this path
into the other two axes.
Otherwise, the forces cancel each other out.


Think of having a slice of pi pie (the sides for a V)
And on the outer curvature of the slice we have two corners
one is the up tilt event, the other is the down tilt event
Each corner is off the horizontal by some degree
the magnitude of this displacement and the length of curvature
over which the displacement occurs
gives us the combined vector of the linear force
In either direction


It doesn't matter which gimble you start with
The force can be traced by following the 3 Step process
(the transition of momentum along the 3 axes)


Rotation as observed in one plane (in one of the 3 dimensions)
when a change in applied force occurs, a tangential force is placed on the axis
90-degrees to that force.
Subsequently, an equal and opposite force (to the applied change) is placed
on the axis that experiences the force.
This is why a gyro can 'stabalize' itself in free space
and holds itself up against gravitational force by resisting tilt
(through precession)




And it is like this on each of the 3 axes, from any perspective.
(taking into consideration the masses and angular velocities appropriately)


You cannot change one without creating a change in the other two.
And momentum is conserved throughout.


In effect, we are vectoring the momentum of the rotating gyro.
the changes we make to both of the other two axes, facilitate this change
in the vector of the angular momentum.

[conradelektro]

This morning i stumble upon this mechanical system
https://youtu.be/ESBYdJx8X7k
It seems that depending on the axles distance and lever length, it is possible to get different ratio back and forth. So with a arduino to control the speed of the servo or stepper motor ?

Nice mechanical solution, but not easy to build. The drawback, nothing can be adjusted (besides changing levers) to test different speeds.

Another test with my vertical twin gyro, i glued  a  vulcaning band on the track to see if a better grip  could improve the already good motorizing swing
And not at all. The device don't move forward any more and swing much less.
So my conclusion is that the gravity pushes the pendulum gyro faster than the rotating traction wheel does. So without the grip band the "traction wheel is no more a traction wheel and simply slide along the guiding track. So perhaps i should add a small ballbearing to help this sliding.
It seems that the vertical setup is no more a Fiala flat system at all.
So once more the rectilinear and fast motorizing swing may be horizontal or 45deg or vertical or perhaps also more than vertical and even totally negativ . fantastic.

Sofar i think have understood a bit.

Now the free precessing back track ?

I have spent long minutes to observe the device rolling on the table
For info  my new guiding track let the gyro almost "free falling" inward just after   6 o'clock of the rectilinear pendulum swing. So at about 7 o'clock the gyros are always in the swing translation but not guided so they precess brutally "inward" and they even touch each  other ( nice little cling) before entering the loooong way back in free precession up to the starting point before the new swing.
During this way back there is 1 or 2 "nutation"and during these nutations ,it seems that the rolling speed of the entire device varies a little bit.

And that i don't understand at all

The reason why everything is very mysterious is that nobody seems to know what effect one has to go after. (Sorry, sm0ky2 knows of course, he knows everything.) One has to isolate the effect and then one can design a system that takes full advantage of it. Unfortunately it is possible that there is no useful effect, just a back and forth movement if friction is taken away. But it is worthwhile to investigate, at least one will understand the gyroscope better.

I got the very nice gyroscope from the UK https://www.gyroscope.com/d.asp?product=SUPER2 and played with it (just with my hands and the rod which comes with it screwed into one side). I could turn it a bit like it will be turned by a stepper motor. Because the gyroscope spins very fast (really about 12.000 rpm) it wants to precess very strongly. Even if the stepper motor would move it only a few degrees it will precess from the horizontal position immediately almost straight up to a vertical position. Therefore I suspect that precession has to be prohibited like in the Fiala device (where the tracks do that). Just speculation, but one sees and feels that more easily with a fast spinning gyroscope where the precession force is strong. In fact, surprisingly strong if one never had a fast spinning gyroscope in one's hand before.

Greetings, Conrad