UFO politics Keeps his word 12-12 12 Let the games begin.......

[MileHigh]

Little disclaimer:  I forgot about the voltage regulation on the output of the generator... I don't have any occasion to play with generators so it was 3/4 ignorance and 1/4 forgetting because I did indeed read about the regulation recently.  So my hypothetical number crunching a few posts back is moot even though it was just posted that the voltage regulation would likely not work.  The solution to the mystery would have been for UFO to use a voltmeter on the output.  duh

However, my comments about the "feel" test hold true.  If you are familiar with your four 500-watt lamps and know what it feels like to stand near them, and your meters are supposedly telling you that you are now pumping 6000 watts into the same four lamps - then you should also feel that on your skin and with your eyes.  It's a mistake to not use your own senses sometimes.

[picowatt]

It would appear from his videos that he is using the Mecc Alte 6KVA  brushless generator.
Looking at the specs, the built in Voltage regulator can handle from -5% to +30% of recommended input 3600 rpm.
At 2450 rpm it is operating at around – 32% of recommended. Way below the -5%.  So what would be the output voltage at that speed?
No specs, voltage curves for that rpm level available. It would be great to have a voltage measurement at that rpm.

Thanks
Mike

That is a very tight low RPM range spec.  Possibly that is at full load.

Do you have a model/type number for the Mecc Alte he uses? (or a link to data sheet...)

Most gens will do full voltage unloaded to a very low RPM.  The Mecc Alte digital regulator series can be programmed to follow an RPM versus voltage curve unloaded below a low RPM alarm setting, or allow full output voltage to very low RPM (20-25% nominal).  I do not have a Mecc Alte, but to answer your question for any generator would require knowing the RPM as well as the applied load.

I have not tried it, but based on experience with other loads, my 8KW gen loaded with 2KW would likely maintain full out voltage @2400RPM.

PW

[picowatt]

Rob:

Sorry to see you go.

Chet:

PW raised the point about the current meter on the output not being correct because it was reading too high.  This is where free energy experimenters often go wrong.  If UFO alleged that he was outputting 6 kW then that would mean that 1.5 kW were being dissipated in each 500-watt lamp.  That clearly was not the case because the lamps would have been blindingly bright or perhaps they would have burnt out within 10 seconds.  If you are around this test setup all the time then you are supposed to know what the feel of 2 kW is like coming off of your four lamps.  Then you run your test and see if your meter readings are at least backed up by the feel.  This clearly did not happen.

Also, many on EF are up in arms that people asked UFO for more measurements, etc.  What do they want?  If someone makes a claim then you ask the person about the claim.  How could UFO not measure the voltage across the load?   Even if he didn't do it in the clip itself, he could have done it offline and report it when he posted and give the power in and power out.

Here is what I think:  The motor dropped in RPM under the load.  Who knows what kind of waveform was driving those bulbs but let's put that issue aside for the moment.  Let's suppose that the voltage driving the lamps was only 90 volts.  Therefore (90*90)/(120*120)*500*4 = 1125 watts being dissipated in the four lamps.  So his efficiency in transferring battery input power to load output power would be about 50% based on these assumptions.

With respect to UFO's rewiring of electric motors in general, I don't really follow the thread but I doubt that any serious analysis is done to compare unmodified vs. the modified motor.  You are probably aware that any serious motor analysis demands that you plot performance curves for the motor.  Without a prony brake you can easily use a generator attached to a resistive load instead.  With some thought and effort an astute experimenter could make before/after comparisons on a motor using a generator with an attached load bank as the mechanical load for your motor under test.

When you distill all of the talk and speculation down, the end of the line is how does your unmodified or modified motor act under a mechanical load.  So a "UFO modified" motor would have to generate performance curves that are superior to the stock unmodified motor to get my attention.  Just a couple of days testing with an unmodified motor and a couple of days testing with a modified motor using a generator attached to a load would allow you to generate the required data.  Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe that has ever been done.

MileHigh

MH,

I've read the last few pages over there since the original post on this thread.  During morning coffee I've been reading that thread from the beginning, up to page 37 now, I believe.  It seems an early project was to modify a Radio Shack motor and it seems several did.  You mentioned proper testing, one of the posters over there modified one RS motor and used another similar motor coupled to the mod as a generator, to which a load was attached, to measure any performance increase.  He tested both a modified and unmodified as a prime mover and measured their V and A while the gen was driving an incandescent lamp.  I thought that was an excellent and fair test set up.  When the tests did not appear to be going well for the modded motor, he got flamed pretty hard.  Rather than calmly discuss why that was not a fair test or possibly propose what would be a fair test, things got a bit rough.

Possibly as I read on I will read of a test performed in some similarly fair fashion with any version of the modified motors that will demo increased efficiency...

There is indeed a lot of work and thought going on, but I'd still hold off on the party...

PW     

[mikestocks2006]

That is a very tight low RPM range spec.  Possibly that is at full load.

Do you have a model/type number for the Mecc Alte he uses? (or a link to data sheet...)

Most gens will do full voltage unloaded to a very low RPM.  The Mecc Alte digital regulator series can be programmed to follow an RPM versus voltage curve unloaded below a low RPM alarm setting, or allow full output voltage to very low RPM (20-25% nominal).  I do not have a Mecc Alte, but to answer your question for any generator would require knowing the RPM as well as the applied load.

I have not tried it, but based on experience with other loads, my 8KW gen loaded with 2KW would likely maintain full out voltage @2400RPM.

PW

In this video: Mecc Alte 6KVA Generator head  (00:26 time stamp or about)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RPsgcgmt3M&list=UUdmFG5BeS0YnD2b5zasXXng&index=1
From Mecc Alte site:
http://www.meccalte.com/index.php?s=173&VAin=3&VAin_prec=3&FHz_prec=60&FHz=60&giri_prec=3600&giri=3600&monotri_prec=1&monotri=1&TenVacmono=&IP_value_prec=21&IP_value=21&ClasseHF=H&step=6

The ECP3-1S/2
Is what comes up when using 6KVA power required. And 3600 rpm
The DS (DataSheet click on the tab for pdf) shows Voltage regulation min -5% to + 30% or the recommended rpm.
also
http://www.general-files.com/download/gs55bf0df0h32i0/ecp3_1s2.pdf.html
"Regulation with DSR ±1 % with any power factor and speed variations between -5% +30%"
So at -32% speed variation, what would be the voltage? Would the regulator be able to handle it? Drop to lower value?

Thanks
Mike

[Ian Koglin]

Rob:

Sorry to see you go.

Chet:

PW raised the point about the current meter on the output not being correct because it was reading too high.  This is where free energy experimenters often go wrong.  If UFO alleged that he was outputting 6 kW then that would mean that 1.5 kW were being dissipated in each 500-watt lamp.  That clearly was not the case because the lamps would have been blindingly bright or perhaps they would have burnt out within 10 seconds.  If you are around this test setup all the time then you are supposed to know what the feel of 2 kW is like coming off of your four lamps.  Then you run your test and see if your meter readings are at least backed up by the feel.  This clearly did not happen.

Also, many on EF are up in arms that people asked UFO for more measurements, etc.  What do they want?  If someone makes a claim then you ask the person about the claim.  How could UFO not measure the voltage across the load?   Even if he didn't do it in the clip itself, he could have done it offline and report it when he posted and give the power in and power out.

Here is what I think:  The motor dropped in RPM under the load.  Who knows what kind of waveform was driving those bulbs but let's put that issue aside for the moment.  Let's suppose that the voltage driving the lamps was only 90 volts.  Therefore (90*90)/(120*120)*500*4 = 1125 watts being dissipated in the four lamps.  So his efficiency in transferring battery input power to load output power would be about 50% based on these assumptions.

With respect to UFO's rewiring of electric motors in general, I don't really follow the thread but I doubt that any serious analysis is done to compare unmodified vs. the modified motor.  You are probably aware that any serious motor analysis demands that you plot performance curves for the motor.  Without a prony brake you can easily use a generator attached to a resistive load instead.  With some thought and effort an astute experimenter could make before/after comparisons on a motor using a generator with an attached load bank as the mechanical load for your motor under test.

When you distill all of the talk and speculation down, the end of the line is how does your unmodified or modified motor act under a mechanical load.  So a "UFO modified" motor would have to generate performance curves that are superior to the stock unmodified motor to get my attention.  Just a couple of days testing with an unmodified motor and a couple of days testing with a modified motor using a generator attached to a load would allow you to generate the required data.  Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe that has ever been done.

MileHigh

G'Day MileHigh and others
Here is the first Video UFO onhis thread http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/10529-my-motors-got-me-tap-into-radiant-energy.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1KALMgFscg&list=UUdmFG5BeS0YnD2b5zasXXng&index=1&feature=plcp

Here are 2 videos of my replication of the first Circuit His happy Motor circuit Ufo showed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edTP06B31ZE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIpGdXzo-wQB31ZE

when I was lighting the bulbs I set the circuit to output 240v then as each bulb was added the volts reduced each time but the lights continued tp be just as bright
It was only when the number of bulbs were over 3 that the circuit was getting a bit hot but all the time the draw from the 3 12v batteries in series was 200ma.
THE REASON PROBABLY WAS BECAUSE UFO said that the coils need to match the load

When I was running the motor unmodified same circuit same batteries the motor was running from very low volts to above 90v still the draw was about the same
and the motor never got hot but the speed was over the limit as you could see I had to stop else the motor would probably explode

These bulbs and the motor were running on Radiant Energy
I did try running my first modified $10 motor with circuit I did not take a video of it as it was going too fast again the coils probably were toooo big for such a little motor.
I am really convinced that UFO latest project the one he showed prematurely 12-12-12 will perform very well I have purchased
one Mecc Alte S16W-130/2 5Kva B9/22 J609B and 3 Imperial Electric Motors P56 MD003 4 HP motors as a UFO Kit
one I will replicate UFO's  12-12-12 unit as He progresses in his project he will show how it is done and
the other 2 motors I will wire up in a pair one running in reverse and hopefully use these 2 motors to run my small PulsarQ motor car
Even so I imagine that these 2 projects will take some time I am not in a hurry but I am sure I will succeed.
I will keep you posted of my progress

Kindest Regards to you all
Kogs