http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&list=PLO6FJVqlxatcIK_qvg6FZF5VHxqmqolLI&v=JNBi6qoW5SI#!
Mags
I put it under Tesla subject because he mentioned Tesla in the vid. ;)
Mags
That is incredible. Man, Laser is doing some great work out there.
Bill
What is the motor supposed to do ? It looks like it does nothing. And LaserSabre is a practical joker, even though I don't see the point to it, the way I see it it could be a joke, I don't take his stuff seriously because all he wants to do is impress people with implied OU that is nothing more than micro power devices. I don't see the point to the thing. Anyone who sets out with the objective of making something spin for no reason is a bit off the mark in my opinion.
I asked him if any of his devices produced excess energy and he said no, none did.
My question is what is the point to the device and what can it do that is practical ?
I don't see how it has anything to do with Tesla. He should also say what it is that makes it have anything to do with Tesla.
Maybe it is a demonstration of what a 3D printer can do, in that regard is isn't all that impressive.
In my opinion this is exactly what is wrong with the free energy movement, generally speaking.
The device is pointless. It will stop. It proves nothing.
Cheers
It almost seems like if the air drag was eliminated, it could increase in RPM by itself.
He needs to do two tests.
1: Spin it up to about 1500 RPM with no electronics and time the spin down.
2: Make sure the capacitor is dead. Spin it up to the same RPM and then connect the electronics, then time the spin down.
Make sure the capacitor is dead and to connect the electronics after the initial RPM is reached so that all imparted energy is the same in both tests.
Quote from: Farmhand on May 25, 2013, 06:30:57 PM
What is the motor supposed to do ? It looks like it does nothing. And LaserSabre is a practical joker, even though I don't see the point to it, the way I see it it could be a joke, I don't take his stuff seriously because all he wants to do is impress people with implied OU that is nothing more than micro power devices. I don't see the point to the thing. Anyone who sets out with the objective of making something spin for no reason is a bit off the mark in my opinion.
I asked him if any of his devices produced excess energy and he said no, none did.
My question is what is the point to the device and what can it do that is practical ?
I don't see how it has anything to do with Tesla. He should also say what it is that makes it have anything to do with Tesla.
Maybe it is a demonstration of what a 3D printer can do, in that regard is isn't all that impressive.
In my opinion this is exactly what is wrong with the free energy movement, generally speaking.
The device is pointless. It will stop. It proves nothing.
Cheers
Oooo, kinda harsh after one vid. We will see.
Have you ever tried to run a pulse motor on a 1000uf cap precharged? If what he is showing is as shown, it is better than I have seen of anyone. It isnt April 1 today is it? ;)
I wonder if the coils are in series. :o ;D
Mags
Quote from: lumen on May 25, 2013, 07:24:11 PM
It almost seems like if the air drag was eliminated, it could increase in RPM by itself.
He needs to do two tests.
1: Spin it up to about 1500 RPM with no electronics and time the spin down.
2: Make sure the capacitor is dead. Spin it up to the same RPM and then connect the electronics, then time the spin down.
Make sure the capacitor is dead and to connect the electronics after the initial RPM is reached so that all imparted energy is the same in both tests.
Im interested in seeing the circuit. In the vid, he said "Tesla said.." but didnt finish. ???
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on May 25, 2013, 08:06:46 PM
Im interested in seeing the circuit. In the vid, he said "Tesla said.." but didnt finish. ???
Mags
Mags:
Does he not have the circuit published on his website? I did not check but I believe he said more info over there. I think this is a great advance that he has done.
Bill
Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 25, 2013, 08:12:57 PM
Mags:
Does he not have the circuit published on his website? I did not check but I believe he said more info over there. I think this is a great advance that he has done.
Bill
Wasnt last I checked.
He said in the vid it will be up soon. ;)
Mags
well, my 'ossie' motor also runs on one cap :)
runtime= 172 minutes - cap= 68000 uF, and then stops :(
For me the most interesting feature of LaserSaber's 3d-printed motor is the fact that it acts as a generator (charging the 1000µF cap) when driven with an air jet (from a drinking straw).
I never saw a Reed switch pulse motor circuit as a "generator circuit". My guess, it works because of the back EMF from the coils (which are connected in series).
It would be less annoying if he showed his circuits straight away, but in the past he published his circuits eventually. It is difficult to act in an altruistic way. It needs practice, because we all are brain washed by the "free market system" and it's demand for "gain" and "competition". But LaserSaber has come a long way already.
Greetings, Conrad
At least this can replicated (mostly exactly, you`d have to wind the coils the same) if you have a 3D printer or send the files off to be printed.
Nice starter base for everyone to compare run times, do experiments etc.
@lasersaber (Posted on your video page.)
QUOTE
Thank you man for showing cascading coils in action just as I tried to explain to Romero ions ago. Keeping it sweet and simple showing how each coil is a generator and a driver interchanging between each. You can make a 2, 3, 4 decked unit, with more magnets on wheel.
Put two positive scope probes on any of the two coils to see their phasing relation since that cap should have depleted in a few seconds but the total of all the coil resistances is actually slowing down consumption.
UNQUOTE
wattsup
Quotewell, my 'ossie' motor also runs on one cap runtime= 172 minutes - cap= 68000 uF, and then stops
Yes, I have built some of those. I never was able to get one to run for over a few minutes on a small capacitor. I wonder how long this new motor would run on a 68000uF cap?
QuoteI never saw a Reed switch pulse motor circuit as a "generator circuit". My guess, it works because of [color=rgb(0, 0, 255) !important]the back[/color] EMF from the coils (which are connected in series).
That is correct. The rotor has six magnets. There are 12 coils connected in series. The coils are connected so that while one coil is pushing the magnet, the next coil is already pulling on the magnet. So the magnets are all n-n-n-n-n-n and the coils are n-s-n-s-n-s-n-s-n-s-n-s.
QuoteIt would be less annoying if he showed his circuits straight away, but in the past he published his circuits eventually. It is difficult to act in an altruistic way. It needs [color=rgb(0, 0, 255) !important]practice[/color], because we all are brain washed by the "free [color=rgb(0, 0, 255) !important]market[/color] system" and it's demand for "gain" and "competition". But LaserSaber has come a long way already.
I am very committed to sharing freely. The reason the circuit is not up already is that I am on a vacation with the family. When I get back, I will post it, plus the 3D files, on to laserhacker.com.
For those who do not get the point of this, let me try to explain. People had been asking for a DIY video on the motor and crystal cell featured on my live video stream. I realized that the best way to do this would be 3D printing. I decided to start with the motor first. I put everything I have learned to date into making the motor run on as little current as possible. Next I will do the 3D printed crystal cell. Together this will make a combo that should run for years. The motor has really impressed me. Now I am looking at trying to get it to run longer on a 1000uF cap. By using some techniques I learned on my Muller motor I may be able to improve the run-time greatly. The end goal for me (besides making a self runner which is probably impossible but I will try relentlessly anyway) will be a new kind of battery system. It would be like an electrical fly wheel. At a much larger scale, you could spin one of these up with solar or wind energy and then pull from it later at night.
I am already working on some improvements, see attached image.
Overcoming friction in a good bearing, like those in hard drives or CD drives requires
almost no power. A large capacitor should last a long time.
To be confident that there is something here, we need figures for power in and power
out to a load.
Fantastic work as usual LS.
Quote from: Magluvin on May 25, 2013, 03:49:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&list=PLO6FJVqlxatcIK_qvg6FZF5VHxqmqolLI&v=JNBi6qoW5SI# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&list=PLO6FJVqlxatcIK_qvg6FZF5VHxqmqolLI&v=JNBi6qoW5SI#)!
Mags
Hi Mags,
This setup LS shows tends to suggest what Ian hinted at if you recall my mentioning him in my posting ( http://www.overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/msg360671/#msg360671 (http://www.overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/msg360671/#msg360671) ) i.e. the more coils are used (in a certain series/parallel) combination, the more flux can be brought into creating more and more torque while the input power stays about the same. (Of course there must be a limit for the increase, for the rotor mass cannot be increased beyond the certain size or weight with increasing also the number rotor magnets.)
Also this setup as running from a capacitor would be ideal setup for testing coil shorting at the induced voltage peaks. I am not saying it surely gives extra output over the input but if is able to increase the run time, that would be a benefit too.
This is also valid for the Ossie motor :
Quote from: Rodelu on May 26, 2013, 03:43:35 AM
well, my 'ossie' motor also runs on one cap :)
runtime= 172 minutes - cap= 68000 uF, and then stops :(
So it also would be interesting to see any improvement the coil shorting may cause on it.
Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on May 26, 2013, 07:06:54 PM
Hi Mags,
This setup LS shows tends to suggest what Ian hinted at if you recall my mentioning him in my posting ( http://www.overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/msg360671/#msg360671 (http://www.overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/msg360671/#msg360671) ) i.e. the more coils are used (in a certain series/parallel) combination, the more flux can be brought into creating more and more torque while the input power stays about the same. (Of course there must be a limit for the increase, for the rotor mass cannot be increased beyond the certain size or weight with increasing also the number rotor magnets.)
Also this setup as running from a capacitor would be ideal setup for testing coil shorting at the induced voltage peaks. I am not saying it surely gives extra output over the input but if is able to increase the run time, that would be a benefit too.
This is also valid for the Ossie motor :
So it also would be interesting to see any improvement the coil shorting may cause on it.
Gyula
Hmm, this would be great. I just wonder if there are any diodes or what coil windings used(difficult he says). Ive messed with caps as a source, with reed switching, and from a 1000uf, and the torque shown for the scale size, 'this needs to be the model' and developed upon. ;)
Mags
I don't understood something : does this motor run on 1000uF cap for 50 minutes and HAS TORQUE ?
Hi folks, many of these things were brought up in this thread also.
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/5911-garry-stanley-pulse-motor-8.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/5911-garry-stanley-pulse-motor-8.html)
My motor setup had only one rotor, one can only imagine if it had many, many rotors attached with the added coils wired to maintain the same overall resistance, to maintain the desired input wattage for a given shaft/rpm load.
So say with one rotor, it draws 25 watts for our given shaft load, (lets say lifting a weight) with the multiple added rotors, we could lift much more weight in the same time period, than we could with just the one rotor for the same input wattage.
All these air coils in combination with super magnets, will continue to give more and more shaft work for the same input.
This simple concept, i feel, is being obfuscated by some, for whatever reasons.
This concept could be, as in a car, broken up into separate motors to power each wheel or one giant carnival type motor wheel could be built that used 100 watts to power huge shaft loads for towns.
peace love light
tyson :)
:D Hi LS :D ,
I must say that it's an amazing piece of engineering. Plus the effort to make it thru a 3D printable spec so everyone can easily reproduce and test it's spectacular.
Thank you so much for sharing.
LS, have you done any power consumption measurement? Have you tried to put it on scope?
Someone talked about diodes in this thread. In the case someone in this thread would like to experiment LS design with diodes, I would recommend germanium diodes.
:D Thank you for sharing :D
@LaserSaber (posted on LS web site as well)
I think if you can find a germanium diode and point it towards the capacitor, it may help in increasing the motive force of the wheel. Since the capacitor has no diode and the motor contact is done via the reed switch, this indicates that the coils-cap-reed are probably all in series. Caps discharge on connection and inductors (coils) discharge on disconnection. I think the energy being sloshed around is much higher then what you see, (shown by the torque) but because the capacitor does not have a diode, it is simultaneously in continuous charge and discharge state. With a diode pointing to the capacitor, it may cut half a cycle to charge but that half cycle will still be consumed by the coils and the other half cycle that does charge the cap may be of higher final voltage that could not be captured without a diode because the whole system is running in an rms mode where everything is levelled off to the least consuming state, which is also the least producing state.
Not 100% sure but I am sure it would have to be a germanium diode (only .2 volts loss) and the effect will surely be interesting to learn from. Even trying a diode placed in series between the half way point of the series coils may provide another effect of interest. Or, just tapping the diode at the coil half way point and point to the capacitor.
Cascading coils does not necessarily rely on the precise replication of the build but the overall set-up can be duplicated in many ways. Again I tried to explain this to Romero, telling to put his top and bottom coils in two series. Anyone with a Romero wheel can try that right away.
So many ways to learn about effects when the base process is stable as you show now.
wattsup
PS: But........first of all........ enjoy your vacation!!!!!!!
PS2: @schuler
Yes is should be germanium but even with germanium diodes, they are not all the same reaction so the best thing to do is make a diode carousel and test many models as the wheel is turning. One diode may outperform the others by 2 or more times greater.
Quote from: forest on May 27, 2013, 02:04:43 AM
I don't understood something : does this motor run on 1000uF cap for 50 minutes and HAS TORQUE ?
Hi forest,
Yes. its rotor has torque. I would like to understand what you do not understand... :D 8)
I assume the long run time would decrease gradually as you would try to utilize its torque. The mass of the rotor together with the weight of the 6 magnets is the "useful" load at the moment as shown in the video (and of course the air drag of the rotor).
Gyula
Hi LaserSaber,
Excellent work.
Here is a way to improve torque, angle the magnets and coils so that the force is pushing over the center line of the rotor. In this picture it is angled 30 degrees from center the coils are also angled the same degrees just translated outwards from the center of each magnet. You can change the angle to whatever you want. The goal is just to get the force to push over the center instead of at the center.
Looking forward to your next design.
Edit: It's actually 30 degrees for each magnet in this setup. 360/12.
Quote from: gyulasun on May 27, 2013, 09:06:04 AM
Hi forest,
Yes. its rotor has torque. I would like to understand what you do not understand... :D 8)
I assume the long run time would decrease gradually as you would try to utilize its torque. The mass of the rotor together with the weight of the 6 magnets is the "useful" load at the moment as shown in the video (and of course the air drag of the rotor).
Gyula
"The mass of the rotor together with the weight of the 6 magnets is the "useful" load at the moment as shown in the video (and of course the air drag of the rotor)."
And the drag of the straw. ;)
It seems as though what ever rpm it is set to run, the caps voltage adjusts accordingly. If the straw drag were another generator that slowly charged a cap for periodic pulse discharge, maybe it could be made to increase in rpms on its own. I dunno. Im patiently waiting for directions for the build. Hopefully it comes soon. Im getting impatient. lol ;) Knowing what LS has shown in the past, this one has my attn more than ever.
Dreamthinkbuild,
I have used a coil at an angle like that with a motor that was pushing the mags and it did produce more rpms. The mags were straight though. So the coil was pushing on the magnets field in the direction of rotor motion, instead of pushing/squashing it against the rotor.
But here we have 6 mags and 12 coils. Mags are all the same polarity and the coils are alternating polarity. So the coils, 2 of them can act on a rotor mag at the same time, pulling and pushing=more torque. Im not sure it would be good to angle the 2 coils toward each other, but anything is possible. I would only try after a working model is made and then experiment beyond. ;)
Mags
Quote from: lumen on May 25, 2013, 07:24:11 PM
It almost seems like if the air drag was eliminated, it could increase in RPM by itself.
He needs to do two tests.
1: Spin it up to about 1500 RPM with no electronics and time the spin down.
2: Make sure the capacitor is dead. Spin it up to the same RPM and then connect the electronics, then time the spin down.
Make sure the capacitor is dead and to connect the electronics after the initial RPM is reached so that all imparted energy is the same in both tests.
Yes, that would be a great informative and simple test to run.
Nice work, good posts.
Thanks
Mike
Hi Magluvin,
QuoteSo the coil was pushing on the magnets field in the direction of rotor motion, instead of pushing/squashing it against the rotor.
Actually that would be easier. ;)
QuoteI would only try after a working model is made and then experiment beyond.
That is the beauty with 3D printing you can keep the original design and just swap out a new rotor or stator with a different angle for testing. At this scale it probably take less than 20 minutes to print the rotor. Keep everything modular like the coils so they can be snapped in and out of the different designs since they take the longest to make. Use friction hold on the magnets so they can be taken out and re-used. Lots of options for experimenting.
Hi LaserSaber,
Just a quick question. What is the infill percent for the rotor?
I tried to replicate LaserSaber`s first 3D-printed motor as shown in his video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Esphle_MsXI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Esphle_MsXI)
My version was done by hand (super glue), therefore it is not precisely built.
The axle is a needle which sits in a little hole (in a bolt in the centre of the base) and is held upright by a magnet above its upper end (also like in LaserSaber`s motor). The needle top does not touch the magnet, the distance to the magnet is about 2 mm.
When I blow air at the rotor its starts to turn and turns for about a minute (the needle bearing is that good).
I will use one coil as a trigger coil, see the scope shots over one coil when a magnet passes rather slowly. May be the trigger coil will need a special shape and will have to be placed at a specific location (as a seventh coil). We will see, if all fails I use a Reed switch like LaserSaber.
I will try with the transistor 2SK170 or ALD110800 or ALD110900, because they switch with very low Voltage at the base (zero offset).
The coils are from six 12 V relays, about 90 Ohm DC resistance. The diameter of the base is about 120 mm.
Greetings, Conrad
Quote from: lumen on May 25, 2013, 07:24:11 PM
It almost seems like if the air drag was eliminated, it could increase in RPM by itself.
He needs to do two tests.
1: Spin it up to about 1500 RPM with no electronics and time the spin down.
2: Make sure the capacitor is dead. Spin it up to the same RPM and then connect the electronics, then time the spin down.
Make sure the capacitor is dead and to connect the electronics after the initial RPM is reached so that all imparted energy is the same in both tests.
Untill we know more, its hard to say what rpm it can run at. It seems the cap voltage changes with rpms, where maybe 1500 rpms might breach the 16vdc of the cap rating.
What it seems like is he can just spin it up from a stop and 0v, and it will be at whatever voltage associates with the rpm. When he did the speed up with the air from the straw, the voltage went up and rested basically at that rpm level.
Im very eager to see details. :o :o :o ;D From what I see and think about what I see, this is what everyone should concentrate on once revealed. ;)
Mags
Quote from: conradelektro on May 27, 2013, 02:43:33 PM
I tried to replicate LaserSaber`s first 3D-printed motor as shown in his video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Esphle_MsXI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Esphle_MsXI)
My version was done by hand (super glue), therefore it is not precisely built.
The axle is a needle which sits in a little hole (in a bolt in the centre of the base) and is held upright by a magnet above its upper end (also like in LaserSaber`s motor). The needle top does not touch the magnet, the distance to the magnet is about 2 mm.
When I blow air at the rotor its starts to turn and turns for about a minute (the needle bearing is that good).
I will use one coil as a trigger coil, see the scope shots over one coil when a magnet passes rather slowly. May be the trigger coil will need a special shape and will have to be placed at a specific location (as a seventh coil). We will see, if all fails I use a Reed switch like LaserSaber.
I will try with the transistor 2SK170 or ALD110800 or ALD110900, because they switch with very low Voltage at the base (zero offset).
The coils are from six 12 V relays, about 90 Ohm DC resistance. The diameter of the base is about 120 mm.
Greetings, Conrad
3D printing or not, you did a nice job. ;)
I think the 12 coils, with less space between them allows for a push and pull between coils, as he stated alternating polarity of the coils.
What relays did you get those coils from? I like those. ;)
Mags
Bravo Conrad
And of course thank's very much to Lasersaber for sharing as usual
nice and very good job
i am following this thread with great attention
As per Mag , skywatcher , Gyula , wattsup ,. and others , ..., this is remaining me a lot of very valuable thinking
good luck at all
Laurent
Another way is to increase the magnets with less space N S and with two coil drivers ......
Mine does not work on caps alone but with multiple source back emf output to a double jt one supplying battery back to source battery and one to wall outlet / solar / all in parallel...... @200 mA and 546 rpm been running 24/7 with wall power off in the evening / solar on in the morning //// used also earth ground in the circuit bedini ssg
The important is the coil to make as generator coils ..... best design so far is with skycollection pancake with choke in the middle.... still looking for the ultimate design
if there is a cap/battery design in the market now , why not a cap coil /choke rolled into one lined up in parallel to the shaft...... lots of ideas
happy experimenting
totoalas
I bet the rotor can be stopped with minimal force and the motor would be incapable of driving any substantial load, such as a useful output.
Believe it or not motors usually drive loads with a shaft. The less input and output power a device has the less inherent losses are involved so efficiency is better and as well the less output such a device can produce, I see no output so the efficiency is zero.. To calculate efficiency the "useful"output needs to be considered in relation to the input.
A spinning rotor is not output unless the rotational energy is tapped for a useful and intended purpose.
This is efforts toward perpetual motion, or self running. Which has it's own merits i'll admit.
I think all who can should replicate this setup so that as many people as possible have rotors spinning from pre charged capacitors that run down over time and produce no output.
It's a very important endeavor. This reminds me of the RomeroUK hype. I don't get it what is the point. And where is the output.
Please note I have not abused anyone. I think my questions are valid. But feel free to ignore me. :D
Cheers
The setup is like taking advantage of "dielectric absorption" of the electrolytic capacitor. The test to show it would be to remove the capacitor from the device entirely while it is running (the device would stop), as expected but that's not the point. Then measure the voltage of the capacitor, then short the capacitor terminals briefly, then measure how much voltage the capacitor regains. If a device is made to use a very small amount of energy it can be made to run from the dielectric absorption effect of the regaining of voltage. And that would have nothing to do with the motor or it's design except that it uses a minute amount of input and is not loaded. The dielectric absorption effect can be enhanced by prior charging of the capacitor and leaving it charged over time, then when shorted all the energy is not released at once and energy is released slowly over time from the capacitor, energy which was put there by charging previously.
Wiki page on Dielectric Absorption.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_absorption
Unless the capacitor used in the video is taken from the device and tested for dielectric absorption it can't be ruled out. I have capacitors that regain up to 10 volts typically more like 3 to 5 volts. THe effect is real and the energy is real and usable but it is energy that is previously input.
I think the dielectric absorption effect is used in one of his other video's as well possibly more, I'm not able to say since I haven't watched all his video's.
Cheers
Oh and LaserSaber should feel under no obligation to do the test just because I mentioned it. If the test is done it should be done for the sake of finding out if it is a factor and no other reason.
Another way to test the cap is to have it ready to start, then just short the cap very briefly, like with the swipe or quick touch of a wire and observe the voltage regained with successive shorts, then calculate the potential energy remaining in the capacitor after each of a few shorting events and add it all together.
..
Well Farmhand you could at least say it's an extremely efficient motor to run off such a small power source. Just imagine a motor like that built about 100 times bigger running off let's say a 1 Farad cap. Seems like that might have some torque. Just speculating here but at the least it seems like it is a design that makes extremely good use of what little power is available. And when things get really really efficient then we may be just a hair width away from overunity ;)
As for dielectric absorption I don't think that's it. I've hooked up a couple dozen big electrolytic caps that ranged for 1000 uf to 50,000 uf and 16 volt to 400 volt. All together they lit one small 5mm LED for just a blink. The voltage may be there but very very little current.
@all
If I look at this down the road, knowing how builds progress with time, I would say that what the EZ motor should include into its initial design right now is a way for the rotor shaft to be extended above its present level, via a shaft coupling, so that you can add some magnets onto the rising part of that shaft. Then you put coils around those magnets so that the extended level would now be a real secondary output.
Yes there will be some drag but the fact that the EZ rotor is pushing against some straw drag, it may be enough to push it over the top. hehehe
What I mean by the above is shown by an OU member @handyguy1.
He is just oscillating his rotor back and forth, but the rotor magnets are right on the shaft and the winding is crossing it to get all the impress possible. So think of the handguy1 secondary would be mounted vertical onto the EZ motor and the magnet would simply turn in one direction cutting the impress across an output coil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HHQzWyLTBI
The thread is here;
http://www.overunity.com/3865/power-ratio-over-one/#.UaP5WpxqN2U
The reason I am bringing this up is because the EZ motor has its mag/cascading coil combo on the exterior of a given radius (would remain to be seen if the radius can be a variable) and the handyguy1 motor has its magnets on the shaft at the minimal radius and both of these together now give you maximum leverage delta to make that extra few volts that the EZ motor should be able to muster up given the straw drag. That's what I would call working smart to hunt for an OU situation. That type of delta in leverage would be additive in favor of the drive. So the EZ motor would be a simple drive motor and the handyguy1 type would be your output.
I think this shows how the Romero wheel was doomed from the start because the drive coils and the output coils shared the same radius thus having zero leverage delta. So they should use the Romero wheel in cascading mode like the EZ motor and use a handyguy1 type off the center shaft. There is no real other way. You will always have a fixed maximum torque but you can always vary the leverage point or in drag terms where you want the torque/drag battle to occur.
wattsup
PS: Forgot another reason for the handyguy1 type is that it is showing output at such low swing cycles.
Quote from: e2matrix on May 27, 2013, 08:22:49 PM
Well Farmhand you could at least say it's an extremely efficient motor to run off such a small power source. Just imagine a motor like that built about 100 times bigger running off let's say a 1 Farad cap. Seems like that might have some torque. Just speculating here but at the least it seems like it is a design that makes extremely good use of what little power is available. And when things get really really efficient then we may be just a hair width away from overunity ;)
As for dielectric absorption I don't think that's it. I've hooked up a couple dozen big electrolytic caps that ranged for 1000 uf to 50,000 uf and 16 volt to 400 volt. All together they lit one small 5mm LED for just a blink. The voltage may be there but very very little current.
Then you didn't do it right, the low loss capacitor needs to be pre-charged to it's rated voltage and left for some time charged, then just after shorting or draining in use the dielectric absorption effect will happen, some capacitors do it better than others, but the effect is real, no matter if you don't see it happen much or not. Your comment is a perfect example of disregarding a valid factor because it doesn't fit with the desired assessment of what is seen. If a large electrolytic capacitor is used then there is every chance the dielectric absorption effect is at play to some degree.
Quoteit can be as much as 15% for electrolytic capacitors
The voltage and charge is real enough to shock a person.
QuoteThe voltage at the terminals generated by the dielectric absorption may possibly cause problems in the function of an electronic circuit or can be a safety risk to personnel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_absorption
Once again I'll say I see usable amounts of dielectric absorption in some of my caps, but it isn't free, not one bit.
What is the load it is driving ? how much wind drag does it overcome ? What is the output that shows it makes good use of the input power from the cap ?
If no useful output efficiency is nil, nada.
I admit I didn't watch much when I seen just a rotor spinning and could not see any use for it.
What load does it drive ? What is it's intended function.
When someone build one and tests what it can do as far as powering loads then measures efficiency, there will be figures to judge its performance.
Any electrical device can run from a cap. The amount it draws will determine the length of run time.
I wonder how long Lidmotor's little "Penny" motor could run from that cap, or an LED with an appropriate current limiting resistor.
I'm not saying it doesn't turn the rotor with very little power, I'm seeing it does and probably the power consumption is so small that dielectric absorption could be a factor for it running so long. That's all. I'm also saying I don't see a spinning rotor as output as such, but the weight of the rotor and it's acceleration rate can show the torque applied to it.
The wind resistance reduces dramatically with less speed and less protrusions from the rotor.
Maybe I'll waste some time and see how long I can make a rotor spin from the charge in a cap.
To be competitive we need to know some things.
1) how much does the rotor weigh ?
2) how much charge is in the capacitor to start ?
3) how fast does he spin it at first to get it going ?
4) how fast does it spin on average under power ?
5) what is the brand and make/size of the capacitor he uses ?
6) what is the average continuous power draw of the circuit from the capacitor ?
Or we could just do what works to make it look good. If I get board which is rare, I might try it.
Is he using one coil to charge a cap for the next, if so it's a version or variation of the resonant charging circuit in Tesla's "IGNITER FOR GAS ENGINES" patent.
The principal which I showed a working motor using just recently. And is now a motor rated to 50 or 60 Watts max but is very useful at even 5 Watts or less.
The principal of Tesla's that I showed covers a cascade of two coils as in a regular resonant charging circuit as well as multiple coils in the same way which is just an extension of the basic circuit and any other iteration using the same principal in a pulse motor.
If it is that principal he is using it's a good idea and I wish him well with the research. If not the principal he's using then I still wish him well.
But the dielectric absorption effect can play a real part, especially if one is aware of it and how to maximize the effect.
I'm biased towards LaserSabre because he gets jollies from tricking people. And allows people to spread rumors his devices are OU when they are not and he does little to set the record straight.
I also understand he didn't link the video and start the thread.
Cheers
Quote from: Magluvin on May 27, 2013, 03:54:46 PM
...........
What relays did you get those coils from? I like those. ;)
Mags
Most parts of this relay (white coil) can be taken off with a pair of tongs. Then one has to drill into that little cross at the back side to get the metal part off.
If you want such coils look through the relays you can find, you want a relay with high DC resistance (which means very many turns of wire on the coil).
Some relays are in a plastic housing which I open with a fine hack saw (black coil). I also had to take off metal parts with the fine hack saw to get at the black coil.
The relay coils have nice metal cores which you can use or take out, depending on the experiment.
There is the question of using a core or not. I found that an air core (no core) shows interesting effects, again when low power draw is the goal.
Some experimenters want pulse motor coils with very little DC resistance (thick wire, few turns). I found that coils with high DC resistance (many turns of wire, thin wire) show some interesting effects in pulse motors (especially if one wants low power draw).
But these are my empiric observations based on crude experiments and crude contraptions.
Greetings, Conrad
Quote from: Farmhand on May 28, 2013, 02:44:00 AM
If no useful output efficiency is nil, nada. ......
I admit I didn't watch much when I seen just a rotor spinning and could not see any use for it. ......
What load does it drive ? What is it's intended function. .......
When someone build one and tests what it can do as far as powering loads then measures efficiency, there will be figures to judge its performance. ....
I wonder how long Lidmotor's little "Penny" motor could run from that cap, or an LED with an appropriate current limiting resistor. .....
Or we could just do what works to make it look good. If I get board which is rare, I might try it. .....
Cheers
May be it is all just a nice hobby. I see it like that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_ludens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_ludens)
Greetings, Conrad
I could do a first test with my LaserSaber 3D-printed motor replication (version with six coils and six magnets on the rotor, all magnets have N towards the coils, drive coil pushes).
Instead of a Reed switch I use 5 coils in series as a trigger and only one coil as drive coil. Very strange way to do it, but it worked fairly well. (The other way round, 5 drive coils and 1 trigger coil also worked, but not so well.) Each coil has about 90 Ohm DC resistance.
See the circuit with a 2SK170 transistor as switching element. It still worked with 0.3 Volt supply Volatge (the mA draw and the rpm are written on the circuit).
I attach a strange scope shot (see the circuit for the attachment points of CH1 and CH2). May be the experts can tell me what is going on. My interpretation: the current is not strong enough to drive the scope electronics reliably? The capacitance of the probe and the 1 MOhm resistance of the probe create strange artefacts?
The power draw is higher than I expected, the motor stops quickly on the 1000 µF electrolytic capacitor.
I will try 3 trigger coils and 3 drive coils and also 6 drive coils with a Reed switch, but it will take time.
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad,
Very nice job!
I think your scope was set to a vertical scale of 1 V/DIV for both channels and time scale is 20msec/DIV, right?
It looks like the JFET works as an oscillator whenever the induced trigger voltage is just good for the JFET to work as an amplifier (both the drain and the gate have inductive reactance from the coils). You can test how the real gate-source voltage changes i.e what AC voltage the 5 series coils provide if you disconnect the drive coil wire from the drain and push the rotor by hand to the approximate RPM it runs with when the 0,5V supply voltage was connected, under this condition the JFET cannot oscillate.
(You surely know that the 2SK170 conducts with its IDSS drain-source current (so it has the maximum transconductance) whenever the voltage between its gate-source is zero. And this kind of JFET cannot conduct when the gate-source voltage is higher i.e. more negative than the -0.2V to -1.5V cut-off voltage as per the data sheet with the GR, BL or V designations shows. So I mean this kind of JFET is not ideal for switching unless you use an outside negative bias between the gate and source to cut off drain current whenever there is no induced trigger AC voltage to control the gate-source.)
The ALD110800 or ALD110900 is a bit better in this respect because at zero gate-source voltage the drain-source resistance is 104 kOhm, quasi an open circuit for the 80 Ohm drive coil so a negligible current can flow in the coil. And when the trigger voltage will be more positive at the gate wrt the source, it can switch ON, from data sheet the drain current is about 3mA when the VGS=+4V (at VDS=5V). With the VGS=+4V the drain-source ON resistance is 500 Ohm. (So your 80 Ohm drive coil and this 500 Ohm will behave as a voltage divider: smaller part of the supply voltage feeds the coil and the bigger part of it is dissipated across the FET.)
Notice: this type can have a maximum of 10V between its drain-source, higher than this may cause damage, so be careful with the inductive spikes.
Gyula
@Conrad: very nice work!
Makes me long for my precision tooling, which is still out of reach.
Also... what Gyula said, ditto.
Hi folks, here is some information about one of Joseph Newman's motors.
It seems to have some similarities, like the long series coil and possible energy return.
COIL PARAMETERS:
Weight ........................... 9,000 pounds
Copper Wire Length ............... 55 miles
Coil Inductance .................. 1,100 Henries
Coil Resistance .................. 770 Ohms
Coil Inside Diameter ............. 4 feet
Coil Height ...................... 4 feet
ROTOR PARAMETERS:
Rotor Weight ..................... 700 lbs. ceramic magnets
Rotor Length ..................... 4 feet
Moment of Inertia ................ 40 Kg-sq.m.
Magnetic Moment .................. 100 Tesla-cu.in
BATTERY PARAMETERS:
Battery Type ..................... 6 Volt Ray-O-Vac Lantern
Total Series Voltage ............. 590 Volts
DYNAMIC PARAMETERS:
Torque Constant .................. 15,400 oz. in./amp
Drag Coefficient ................. 0.005 Watts/sq.rpm.
Q at 200 rpm ..................... 30
Power Factor, 200 rpm ............ 0.03
The torque constant was measured at DC and agrees with calculations. The drag
coefficient was measured by plotting the motor speed versus time after
disconnecting the batteries. It was found that the decay is exponential with
the drag torque being proportional to the angular speed. With the motor
operating at 200 rpm, the following measurements and calculations were obtained:
RESULTS: 200 RPM at 590 VOLTS
Battery Input Current ............ 10 milliampere
Battery Input Power .............. 6 Watts
Rotor Frictional Losses .......... 200 Watts
RF Current (rms) ................. 500 milliampere
RF Ohmic Losses in Coil .......... 190 Watts
Additional Loads ................. Fluorescent Tubes
Incandescent Bulbs
Fan (belt driven)
The frictional losses are computed from the measured drag coefficient. The
ohmic losses are computed from the coil resistance. Without considering the
additional loads, it is seen that the output energy of the machine exceeded the
input by a factor of 65!
peace love light
tyson
Forgot to include this important piece of information.
QuoteThe most important design rule specified by the
inventor is that the length of wire in the motor coil be very long; preferably
long enough so that the switching time between current reversals is shorter
than the time required for propagation of the current wavefront through the
coil. Various models contain up to 55 miles of wire, with air core coil
inductances of up to 20,000 Henries. The permanent magnet armatures have very
large magnetic moments. Thus the motors exhibit high torque with low current
inputs. The motors generate large back current spikes consisting of pulsed rf
in the 10-20 MHz frequency range. These spikes provide large mechanical
impulses to the rotor, energize fluorescent tubes placed across the motor, and
tend to charge the dry cell battery pack. The total generated energy ----
consisting of mechanical work, mechanical friction, ohmic heating, and light
---- is many times larger than the battery input energy.
peace love light
tyson :)
New vid New cap, seems to accelerate!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCf-4zFmjNk
Mags
Looking it over again, he blew with the straw and said it really makes the voltage go up fast. Well I would think so. lol But it also speeds up faster. But after the speedup, he drags it down and then it accelerates, probably due to the cap being charged.
But still, what is that a 10uf cap at 100v. This is just insane!!! lol
The germanium diode. I suppose it conducts both ways, if the cap is discharging and recharging and it is in series with the cap.
He posted specs at his forum.
Mags
Gyula, thank you for your comments.
Today I tried with the ALD110900, and it was a failure.
Attached is the circuit and a scope shot with the ALD110900. The rotor stopped turning, even with 7 Volt power supply. The power draw was very little, about 70 µA.
(The circuit diagram does not show it, there was a diode over the drive coil to clip off the back EMF spikes, as one can see in the scope shot.)
The trigger coil idea seems to be not very good, I will use a Reed switch like Lasersaber. But it will have to wait till next week.
Greetings, Conrad
P.S. http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg361696/#msg361696 (http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg361696/#msg361696) this was my test with the 2SK170
Hi Conrad,
If you feel like to return to the 2SK170 again till the reed switch arrive I edited your schematic to include a potmeter, a resistor and a 1.5V small AA or AAA or a button cell battery to insure a negative bias to the gate of the JFET so that it should be just OFF at its pinch-off gate voltage or slightly beyond it. And the induced trigger AC voltage will control the gate whenever the algebraic sum of the DC and AC voltages fall into the conducting range of the JFET. (it is possible you may have to use a 3V battery or two 1.2V batteries in series.) This negative bias does nothing else but helps the JFET return to its OFF state from its ON state whenever it is needed but the induced AC trigger voltage changes slowly in amplitude (not rectangular but sinusoid-like).
This way you may be able to improve the run time of your setup considerably.
I guessed the ALD110900 test would be worse than the JFET test (it has a much higher ON resistance than the JFET).
Thanks for showing the results.
Greetings
Gyula
Gyula, thank you for editing the circuit, I will try that.
I could quickly test the motor with a Reed switch. See the circuit diagram and the photo. Still, much more power draw than Lasersaber reported with his first 3D-Printed Motor (the one with the six coils).
May be Lasersaber`s coils have a higher DC resistance than 90 Ohm?
The Reed switch seems to be "ON" for too long (almost 50% of the time). I have to make an iron shield (slit) in front of it, to limit the ON-time when a magnet passes. Or I have to place it at a better position in respect to the passing magnets.
I tried a 5 K Ohm resistor in series with the coils. This limited the average current draw to about 90 µA at 1 Volt supply Voltage and the rotor still turned slowly. But it is stupid to burn the energy in a resistor. There should be 5 K DC Ohm worth of coils.
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad, excellent work and investigations, the speed with which you made a replication is remarkable. Well done, very impressive. We need more folks like you and LidMotor who can whip up a very good replication in quick time to test things out, and say it as they see it. I agree about the resistor. And I also see the DC resistance of the turns as avoidable loss, to restrict the current and keep ampere turns without the DC resistance I think we can use more inductance, shorter "on times" and more voltage if necessary. One of the reasons I don't like to use small coils is that to get enough turns the wire needs to be thin and so the DC resistance is relatively high, which wastes energy as heat.
If we adjust the "on" time while the coil is in use we can adjust the "on" time so that because of the inductance the current restricted, but if the "on" time is too long the coil gets enough time to act as a conductor with just DC resistance. The frequency of the input "on" times is also a factor there.
Two motors side by side one has 20 Ohms DC resistance in it's motor coils and the other has less than 1 Ohm DC resistance in it's motor coils both have the same inductance and are adjusted to an input of 10 Watts from the same potential supply, which one wastes more energy as heat ? Seems obvious.
Cheers
@conradelektro
I have a hunch and am wondering if you can try to put the reed between coils 3 and 4 and remove the power feed and try it cold turkey like @LS is doing?
Since we know that inductors discharge at disconnection and capacitors discharge at connection, what I am thinking is that putting the reed at the end of the series coils as you have it now then in series with the cap is not giving enough inductive recharge to the capacitor since the reed is blocking one side of the capacitor. But putting the reed at coils 3 and 4 will ensure that both inductor sides will discharge into the cap at disconnection.
wattsup
Conrad:
Wow! That is a great looking rotor and coil assembly you have over there. All built the old fashioned way too. Very nice work...and fast too. I wish you the best of luck with your replication.
Bill
Either I am missing it or we still dont have number of turns for the coils. Maybe since we have the dimensions of the bobbins, we are to just fill them to the rim. Fill one while counting turns then make duplicates. Maybe the difficulty mentioned of these is that the wire is 46awg and the printed bobbins have imperfections that the wire catches on while winding. Not sure.
Well with those figures in mind I suppose an inductor calculator can be used to come up with inductance approximately. Im interested in these numbers and resistance.
Im still bungled by the diode in series with the coil, reed and cap. I would think that once the cap is charged to max potential of generation, that it would stop working.
I really dont want to be a party pooper. But in my mind, especially with the introduction of that diode in a circuit that all parts are in series, the only way I can imagine it to run like it does is that there must be another source. Even without the diode, a source would work, but the diode has me stumbled. Unless the voltages beat the diode into free passes through the back door. ;D
Then the only other possibility is that all the windings in series, if the total length of wire is very very long, long enough for there to be large potential differences between far ends(delays, phase relationships) then maybe there is some bounce or say lopsided compression from one end of the total length of wire to the other. Then again, the thing runs at different speeds producing different freq at each rpm level. Idunno.
Driving me nuts already. :o :o :o ;D
Mags
Was that 42 awg?
oops yep 42 awg. Kinda like splittin hairs. ;D
Mags
I thought the diode on the cap was funny also! If it was connected in one direction, it could only serve to charge the cap and nothing could flow out to power the motor.
If it was connected in the other direction, then it could not charge the cap but the energy in the cap could flow out to run the motor.
Something isn't making sense with that diode unless it's just burnt out and conducts in both directions.
@Farmhand: I was just thinking, how can one adjust the ON-time with Reed switch? To everybody, any ideas? Iron shield (slit)?
@Wattsup: I will try the Reed switch in the middle of the coils as you suggested.
I tried a diode at the capacitor (both directions, both sides of the capacitor). But it did nothing once the battery or power supply was disconnected.
I tried with this schematics http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg361768/#msg361768
Will be back on Monday.
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad,
The ON time of a reed switch could be influenced:
By tinkering with the distance and angle from the rotating magnets (if rotor magnets are too strong, their flux may influence reeds at distance of 4-6 cm, rendering the positioning very critical
By using two reeds in series, the reeds being at certain distance from each other
By using a separate small rotor disk fixed on the same shaft, with small magnets on it, just for controlling the reed, this disk is being independent from the main rotor magnets.
You mention iron shield: it sounds good to me, although it may cause some drag to the rotor magnets, depending on its size and permeability.
Gyula
I thought I had already posted the fact that a reed switch can be "tuned" by using a small fixed magnet on the opposite side of the switch from the moving triggering magnets. You can get almost complete control over the duty cycle of a reed switch by carefully choosing and moving this bias magnet until you get the reed performance you need. Also, putting a small ceramic cap directly across the reed as close as possible to the switch will help to preserve your switch contacts and doesn't cost anything (much) energetically.
The cap in Lasersaber's video is marked 10K 100. A poly film cap of that size cannot possibly be 10 microFarads. Looking on the internet for capacitor marking codes, I find that the "K" means thousands of picofarads. So 10K means 10 thousand picofarads, or 10 nanoFarads, or 0.01 microFarads.
http://www.electronic-circuits-diagrams.com/tutorials/capacitors.shtml
The energy stored in a 0.01 uF cap at 100 volts is (0.00000001)x(100)x(100)/2 Joules == not very much, 0.00005 Joules. From previous experience with jewelled pivot bearings and magnet rotors, I'll estimate that the power dissipation of that little rotor at the speeds we are seeing is on the order of only a couple of milliWatts. Maybe even less, hundreds of microWatts perhaps. Or even less.... since the cap seems to be able to accelerate the rotor from slow, and keep it running for tens of seconds.
It would be nice to see some instrumental data. The rotor could be spun up to a known RPM then allowed to run down, unpowered, and carefully timed. The average of a dozen such runs to the same RPM would be a number that could be relied upon. The rotational Moment of Inertia of the rotor can be easily calculated if the weights of the components are known. This value along with the RPM will give the energy stored in rotation, and the average rundown time will then give an average power dissipation value over that RPM range. Then the testing with the cap could commence. Use the air blast to run the rotor to a known RPM again with the cap switched out of the circuit. Then switch in the cap and time the rundown time. The difference in the powered vs unpowered rundowns will allow you to see how efficient the capacitor really is, whether the system is putting any energy back into the cap while it's running down, and will allow you to determine whether or not any further mods help or hurt.
@Mags:
Disconnect the capacitor and diode from the coils, and spin the rotor while monitoring the coil output on the scope. The rotor magnets passing the coils makes AC, right?
How are you going to charge up a capacitor with AC, unless you also have a rectifier in series with the cap?
Further.... if the diode conducts in both directions.... it's not a diode. A 1n60 germanium would probably handle the strain OK and act as a rectifier with low forward voltage. A Schottky diode might work even better.
Quote from: conradelektro on May 30, 2013, 01:54:34 AM
@Farmhand: I was just thinking, how can one adjust the ON-time with Reed switch? To everybody, any ideas? Iron shield (slit)?
@Wattsup: I will try the Reed switch in the middle of the coils as you suggested.
I tried a diode at the capacitor (both directions, both sides of the capacitor). But it did nothing once the battery or power supply was disconnected.
I tried with this schematics http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg361768/#msg361768
Will be back on Monday.
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad, Gyula and Tinsel give good advice there about the reeds, however I always find that the most reliable, flexible and convenient way is to just get a good of a signal as possible from the reed or "other trigger" (and make it "the trigger" so it can be moved), then I process the signal so I can get whatever pulse width I want as well as change from a 5 volt logic signal to 10 or 12 volts signals ect.
Planning and making the small board takes some time but once you have it it can be used for many things, ie, with my CD4047 circuit I can get retriggering, manual pulse width control blanking pulses for shutdown ect.. One small circuit I use to clean up the sensor signal and make two signals from it, an inverted and a non inverted signal, then another small circuit takes whichever of those signals I use and processes it into a pulse width adjusted signal for the mosfet driver chip, the mosfets are on that board as well, for low frequency one driver chip can drive multiple mosfets ( the sensor could be any type, hall, reed, optical interrupter or photo reflector ect.). with a small addition to the board, it could use the complimentary outputs from the CD4047 chip for a two phase output but I use the "osc out" pin (not the complimentary outputs), because the complimentary outputs are half frequency. Alternatively the the processed pulse could be put through a flip flop circuit which can send each second pulse to a different switch for a second switching phase in "anti phase" to the first, like a push pull type inverter output but alternating rectangle shape pulses, ( for either AC purposes or just a second 180 degree phase.) I'll add that when I need it.
I have the flip flop circuit drawing somewhere, but all these small circuits plug together or are on the same board and can couple with microprocessors for some automation, very useful boards because with adjustments for frequency and using the diode trick I can get very narrow pulse widths ect. I recommend the "CMOS Cookbook" by Don Lancaster.
At the moment for my motor I use 5 mosfets, 2 IC's, 4 mosfet driver chips, a picaxe micro and there are three indicator LED's, all up the control circuitry uses about 50 mA or so from the 12 volt battery supply, the motor can run spinning the 580 gram rotor at over 1000 rpm, with about 150 mA from the 12 volt battery.
I've got some very good efficiency to show soon, with my motor running a fan blade with better efficiency and pushing more air (bigger fan and faster) than a bought 18 Watt fan in good condition of similar size that is fairly efficient, while at the same time my motor can light 30 x 5 mm LEDs from generator coils and charge a battery with released inductive energy which I am now putting into a big cap and switching through the load, be it battery or whatever, this can produce pulsations of over 2.5 amperes and all with only 15 Watts input or so. The motor can use up to 40 Watts no problems for other loads.
Everything is working well and there is no heat to speak of in any part of the circuit even after many hours of continuous use.
I would take the time to build a hardware signal processing board, using hardware signal processing is faster than micro processing signals with software involved.
I think I linked the two circuits before, but here again, these circuits are not perfect and could use customizing for individual needs, there should be many who can assist anyone with improvements.
Almost all of my circuits could be miniaturized and improved, but the principal works. Using these kinds of signal processing the mosfets have no choice but to turn on and off properly which greatly improves the performance efficiency wise. Number one priority when using transistors as switches is that they must turn on and off quickly and cleanly so as not to spray energy during slow transitions.
Cheers
Quote from: Magluvin on May 29, 2013, 10:32:55 PM
....
Im still bungled by the diode in series with the coil, reed and cap.
....
Hi Mags,
Just my speculation, perhaps Lasersaber buried one more reed and one more diode in the motor structure, then using the schematic in the link (very first post by Lanenal) the capacitor charging from the flyback pulses becomes possible:
http://www.overunity.com/5446/a-self-charging-adams-motor/msg123037/#msg123037
Of course, careful adjustments for the reeds are needed to insure their simultanous switch ON or OFF operation, not an impossible task. In the schematic a double reed is mentioned and I know Lasersaber referred to single reed type (SPST) as a substitute for his older reed type used. Obviously a double reed can be substituted with two single reeds.
Hopefully he will reveal his schematic used, sooner or later.
Gyula
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 30, 2013, 10:47:55 AM
I thought I had already posted the fact that a reed switch can be "tuned" by using a small fixed magnet on the opposite side of the switch from the moving triggering magnets. You can get almost complete control over the duty cycle of a reed switch by carefully choosing and moving this bias magnet until you get the reed performance you need. Also, putting a small ceramic cap directly across the reed as close as possible to the switch will help to preserve your switch contacts and doesn't cost anything (much) energetically.
The cap in Lasersaber's video is marked 10K 100. A poly film cap of that size cannot possibly be 10 microFarads. Looking on the internet for capacitor marking codes, I find that the "K" means thousands of picofarads. So 10K means 10 thousand picofarads, or 10 nanoFarads, or 0.01 microFarads.
http://www.electronic-circuits-diagrams.com/tutorials/capacitors.shtml (http://www.electronic-circuits-diagrams.com/tutorials/capacitors.shtml)
The energy stored in a 0.01 uF cap at 100 volts is (0.00000001)x(100)x(100)/2 Joules == not very much, 0.00005 Joules. From previous experience with jewelled pivot bearings and magnet rotors, I'll estimate that the power dissipation of that little rotor at the speeds we are seeing is on the order of only a couple of milliWatts. Maybe even less, hundreds of microWatts perhaps. Or even less.... since the cap seems to be able to accelerate the rotor from slow, and keep it running for tens of seconds.
It would be nice to see some instrumental data. The rotor could be spun up to a known RPM then allowed to run down, unpowered, and carefully timed. The average of a dozen such runs to the same RPM would be a number that could be relied upon. The rotational Moment of Inertia of the rotor can be easily calculated if the weights of the components are known. This value along with the RPM will give the energy stored in rotation, and the average rundown time will then give an average power dissipation value over that RPM range. Then the testing with the cap could commence. Use the air blast to run the rotor to a known RPM again with the cap switched out of the circuit. Then switch in the cap and time the rundown time. The difference in the powered vs unpowered rundowns will allow you to see how efficient the capacitor really is, whether the system is putting any energy back into the cap while it's running down, and will allow you to determine whether or not any further mods help or hurt.
"The cap in Lasersaber's video is marked 10K 100. A poly film cap of that size cannot possibly be 10 microFarads."
hmm, your gunna have to recheck that. I have 3 caps in front of me, one a white box plastic and 2 blue drop caps, the blues say 4.7k and 22k both 100v and the white says 8,2k 100v and they read as uf respectively.
So you might want to redo those calculations. ;D
Mags
Quote from: gyulasun on May 30, 2013, 02:34:23 PM
Hi Mags,
Just my speculation, perhaps Lasersaber buried one more reed and one more diode in the motor structure, then using the schematic in the link (very first post by Lanenal) the capacitor charging from the flyback pulses becomes possible:
http://www.overunity.com/5446/a-self-charging-adams-motor/msg123037/#msg123037
Of course, careful adjustments for the reeds are needed to insure their simultanous switch ON or OFF operation, not an impossible task. In the schematic a double reed is mentioned and I know Lasersaber referred to single reed type (SPST) as a substitute for his older reed type used. Obviously a double reed can be substituted with two single reeds.
Hopefully he will reveal his schematic used, sooner or later.
Gyula
Hi Gyula, If you take away the supply from the battery to the coils in this setup of mine but leave the switching circuit for the motor switches running, then spin the rotor it generates electricity, then switches it through the motor coils producing an inductive return back to the supply line. :) Or through a battery if desired. It works as a generator and coil shorter/motor if the rotor is spun. If already running it takes a long time to run down and stop if the switches are kept switching but the power is cut to the coils. My motor doesn't like to run very slow (less than 500 rpm) so it can't run very slowly or it would go longer.
However it could never run itself. But it is definitely the way to efficiency.
Cheers
P.S. I've found the best place for the MC2 (charging coil) to be placed at the rotor is halfway between point "A" and the MC1-2 motor coil, or 90 degrees or so lagging in electrical phase to the motor coils, I think is another way to say it.
..
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 30, 2013, 12:01:36 PM
@Mags:
Disconnect the capacitor and diode from the coils, and spin the rotor while monitoring the coil output on the scope. The rotor magnets passing the coils makes AC, right?
How are you going to charge up a capacitor with AC, unless you also have a rectifier in series with the cap?
Further.... if the diode conducts in both directions.... it's not a diode. A 1n60 germanium would probably handle the strain OK and act as a rectifier with low forward voltage. A Schottky diode might work even better.
Here is the issue. In the second vid, he said that all parts are in series. All the coils in series are also in series with the cap, then the reed, then the germanium diode. Can you see my drift? ;) Sure the cap will charge, but once it does, then what? ???
I was a true believer before the introduction of the diode in the second vid. Now all that is left to believe in is that the motor coils use soooo little from the cap to run the motor, and if that were so, the cap would need precharging to run the motor.
But in the 2nd vid, he says the cap, being 100 times smaller than the 1st vid cap, charges to much higher voltages, and im assuming he is talking about the motor is generating that voltage when he spins it up faster.
So my question is, with all components in series, does the motor only use the energy from the cap or only charge it? That series diode is a one way street, no?
Thats why Im nuts right now. Or like I said, that diode is bad or has a breakover voltage that the motor is able to generate.
I wish he would come out with more details. I can build this to spec and better by hand. But im not putting a penny into it till all is shown. I have enough experience to know what ideas are worth putting time into vs time and cost, according to how much info is available. Like "oh I need to get a roll of 42awg as soon as possible". Na, not yet. I dont even know if he will show anything more yet and might have stuff sitting on the bench for who knows how long.
Ill do the work. And when im done it will be a beautiful piece of work. But I need more before I begin. Those coils will take time. That wire is like hair just about. Cant use much tension, and backing off to correct a wind that went off course, etc.
Mags
Quote from: gyulasun on May 30, 2013, 02:34:23 PM
Hi Mags,
Just my speculation, perhaps Lasersaber buried one more reed and one more diode in the motor structure, then using the schematic in the link (very first post by Lanenal) the capacitor charging from the flyback pulses becomes possible:
http://www.overunity.com/5446/a-self-charging-adams-motor/msg123037/#msg123037 (http://www.overunity.com/5446/a-self-charging-adams-motor/msg123037/#msg123037)
Of course, careful adjustments for the reeds are needed to insure their simultanous switch ON or OFF operation, not an impossible task. In the schematic a double reed is mentioned and I know Lasersaber referred to single reed type (SPST) as a substitute for his older reed type used. Obviously a double reed can be substituted with two single reeds.
Hopefully he will reveal his schematic used, sooner or later.
Gyula
Perhaps, but thats not what he said. So I wont speculate on that beyond what he has shown.
Like I just posted to TK, that diode is in series with the cap. A one way street. So how do we have charging and motor function with all components in a series loop? ;)
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on May 30, 2013, 06:06:51 PM
"The cap in Lasersaber's video is marked 10K 100. A poly film cap of that size cannot possibly be 10 microFarads."
hmm, your gunna have to recheck that. I have 2 caps in front of me, one a white box plastic and 2 blue drop caps, the blues say 4.7k and 22k both 100v and the white says 8,2k 100v and they read as uf respectively.
So you might want to redo those calculations. ;D
Mags
Yes, my understanding on the 10K in case of poly caps is that the K means rather tolerance than a 1000 time multiplier. The multiplier is designated differently like say 103 and it means you have to add three zeros after the 10 but normally this is valid for cap values in range from pF to nF, so 103 means 10000pF i.e. 10nF, however in the uF range the "habit is writing the pure cap value number WITHOUT including uF. So 10 means 10uF. I have also come across with such cap like Mags.
I think K means tolerance and nominally designates +/-10% tolerance. MAybe the letter J means +/-1%, not so sure etc.
EDIT just found the manufacturer of the poly cap, http://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/pdf/seriesDocuments/MWR%20series.pdf (http://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/pdf/seriesDocuments/MWR%20series.pdf) However in its last page I noticed 106 designation for the 10uF cap so they may have changed their habit (I speculate).
Gyula
Quote from: Magluvin on May 30, 2013, 06:33:02 PM
Perhaps, but thats not what he said. So I wont speculate on that beyond what he has shown.
Like I just posted to TK, that diode is in series with the cap. A one way street. So how do we have charging and motor function with all components in a series loop? ;)
Mags
Well, a one way street indeed LOL Earlier I thought of a Zener diode there but he mentioned germanium diode so... we have to wait.
(A zener diode in its normal forward direction for the motor function and say with a 4.7V reverze breakdown for charging up the cap, allowing 4.7V loss from the flyback pulse. MAybe I am wrong here...)
Edit: yes I am wrong because the reed is open when the flyback is coming...
Quote from: Magluvin on May 30, 2013, 06:06:51 PM
"The cap in Lasersaber's video is marked 10K 100. A poly film cap of that size cannot possibly be 10 microFarads."
hmm, your gunna have to recheck that. I have 3 caps in front of me, one a white box plastic and 2 blue drop caps, the blues say 4.7k and 22k both 100v and the white says 8,2k 100v and they read as uf respectively.
So you might want to redo those calculations. ;D
Mags
Are you quite sure about your caps? Not reading nanoFarads instead of microFarads? The web reference I gave says the K means what I said, and even gives the example of "10K" being 0.01 microFarad.
Can you post a photo of your caps?
As I said, the physical size of the poly film cap in the video seems too small for it to be 10 uF/100V.
Here are the dimensions of a typical 50 V 10 uF poly film cap. The 100 V one, if you can find one, will be even larger.
Length: 1.69 in, Width: 0.53 in, Height: 0.77 in
http://www.tedss.com/MPE-10-50-20/?gclid=CJmUnLP2vrcCFUyY4Aod8m0AXQ# (http://www.tedss.com/MPE-10-50-20/?gclid=CJmUnLP2vrcCFUyY4Aod8m0AXQ#)
Searching google for "capacitor 10K 100" I get this link, which shows a 10K 100 capacitor: 10 nF, 0.01 uF. (not axial leads but the marking is the point).
http://www.logingel.com/1478/169769/0/ShowProduct/Capacitor
So I'm not quite ready to redo my calculations yet.
On the issue of the series diode: I can't tell right off the bat about the drive circuitry. All I can say is that the amount of drive that he gets from the capacitor seems a bit large, even if it's really a 10 uF (which I still don't believe) instead of a 10 nF.
I don't have any fine magnet wire, either.
Quote from: gyulasun on May 30, 2013, 06:42:19 PM
Yes, my understanding on the 10K in case of poly caps is that the K means rather tolerance than a 1000 time multiplier. The multiplier is designated differently like say 103 and it means you have to add three zeros after the 10 but normally this is valid for cap values in range from pF to nF, so 103 means 10000pF i.e. 10nF, however in the uF range the "habit is writing the pure cap value number WITHOUT including uF. So 10 means 10uF.
I think K means tolerance and nominally designates +/-10% tolerance. MAybe the letter J means +/-1%, not so sure etc.
EDIT just found the manufacturer of the poly cap, http://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/pdf/seriesDocuments/MWR%20series.pdf (http://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/pdf/seriesDocuments/MWR%20series.pdf)
Gyula
The dimensions of their 10 uF, 100 V cap are 18 x 34 mm. Seems larger than what's shown in the video. And they don't list a 0.01 uF at 100 volts. So I dunno, maybe.
I've found other sources that say a cap marked "10K 100" should be 10 nF not uF. But I'm willing to allow a 10 uF capacitor. It would be a lot more plausible in terms of energy content, that's for sure, turning that little rotor for some tens of seconds maybe.
Hey Gyula
Yes I think that K is a tolerance value. I looked these up last year some time as I was determining what caps I wanted to pull from PC power supplies.
I thought of a zener also, but he said germanium.
Laser doesnt seem to be one to pull the wool over our eyes, so I believe what he is saying. But its what he is not saying and showing that bothers me at the moment. Its the spoon feeding of info that has a familiar smell to it if you know what I mean. If I were to show something of this caliber, I would prepare all things and present it all at once. The biggest reason would be to make sure it does get out there. The spoon feeding is a bad move in my honest opinion. Showing the vids, such as this, im sure that we(tinkerers, inventors, people on the ou quest) are not the only ones watching and knowing the difference between a simple pulse motor and what is being shown here. Im just anticipating that there wont be a complete reveal because he might be stopped from doing so. I pray not, for him and his family first off. But there seems to be a pattern with spoon fed projects. Then when they back out of a complete reveal, some will just go for it and build, and as history shows, nobody ever gets it working. I guess we will see.
Mags
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 30, 2013, 07:11:39 PM
Are you quite sure about your caps? Not reading nanoFarads instead of microFarads? The web reference I gave says the K means what I said, and even gives the example of "10K" being 0.01 microFarad.
Can you post a photo of your caps?
As I said, the physical size of the poly film cap in the video seems too small for it to be 10 uF/100V.
Here are the dimensions of a typical 50 V 10 uF poly film cap. The 100 V one, if you can find one, will be even larger.
Length: 1.69 in, Width: 0.53 in, Height: 0.77 in
http://www.tedss.com/MPE-10-50-20/?gclid=CJmUnLP2vrcCFUyY4Aod8m0AXQ# (http://www.tedss.com/MPE-10-50-20/?gclid=CJmUnLP2vrcCFUyY4Aod8m0AXQ#)
Searching google for "capacitor 10K 100" I get this link, which shows a 10K 100 capacitor: 10 nF, 0.01 uF. (not axial leads but the marking is the point).
http://www.logingel.com/1478/169769/0/ShowProduct/Capacitor (http://www.logingel.com/1478/169769/0/ShowProduct/Capacitor)
So I'm not quite ready to redo my calculations yet.
On the issue of the series diode: I can't tell right off the bat about the drive circuitry. All I can say is that the amount of drive that he gets from the capacitor seems a bit large, even if it's really a 10 uF (which I still don't believe) instead of a 10 nF.
I don't have any fine magnet wire, either.
Yes Im sure. uf. I even used 'good lighting' to be sure because you had me doubting my caps that I have used for some time now. Some are from car audio component speaker crossover modules. I have 2 that are 12k(12uf) 100v and 12uf makes a lot more sense than 12nf for crossover points in typical cutoff ranges in audio.
I did the 'recheck' right here before I replied. ;)
I remember looking at different sites back then for the info to determine these values visually, and not all were helpful in telling me what my meter says. Strange.
If you wish, I can do a short vid of the testing. I have quite a few of these caps around. ;D
Mags
No, we are cool, I agree that 10 nF doesn't make much sense for an audio crossover network and I think you know what you are doing, most of the time...
;)
But you can understand my position too, I hope, since I found a couple of references that support the interpretation of 10 nF.
(I guess we should just be glad it's not one of those old rectangular mica caps with the colored paint dots in the little embossed pits, I guess.... paint flakes off, etc...)
Back to the video, with calipers....
:P
@Farmhand: Very nice blueprint schematic. Are your L1 and L2 coils on the same core? Where are the clock signals to the mosfet gates coming from?
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 30, 2013, 07:50:07 PM
No, we are cool, I agree that 10 nF doesn't make much sense for an audio crossover network and I think you know what you are doing, most of the time...
;)
But you can understand my position too, I hope, since I found a couple of references that support the interpretation of 10 nF.
(I guess we should just be glad it's not one of those old rectangular mica caps with the colored paint dots in the little embossed pits, I guess.... paint flakes off, etc...)
Back to the video, with calipers....
:P
"and I think you know what you are doing, most of the time...
;) "
lol, I try. ;)
"Back to the video, with calipers....
:P "
Are ya gunna build it?
Mags
OK, I fold.
I checked the size on the video, the damn thing is bigger than his thumb from the tip to the knuckle, and on my hand that is in the 35 mm range, so it matches the dimensions given by the manufacturer for the 10uF capacitor.
Thanks for pounding on me, I have always been confused by capacitor markings, especially when there seem to be so many different systems in use, old and new, domestic and foreign.
At least it doesn't have an HP part number or something like that.
So 10 uF at 100 volts is 0.05 Joules, and if the rotor dissipates 5 mW it gets 10 seconds of drive. So we are in the ball park of plausibility, based on the behaviour of the rotor, but I am still skeptical about where the cap gets a full 100 volt charge.
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 30, 2013, 07:51:38 PM
@Farmhand: Very nice blueprint schematic. Are your L1 and L2 coils on the same core? Where are the clock signals to the mosfet gates coming from?
Tinsel, Thanks, the trigger pulses come from the rpr 220 photo reflector shown above but the drawing is difficult to fathom I know, I'm awful at explaining myself, the coils are on three different cores, two motor coils MC1-1 and MC1-2 are the two motor coils (separate cores same phase, in parallel) and the MC-2 coils are two coils (bifilar in parallel on one core ) to feed the charge caps and help drive the rotor, the MC-2 coils are the "resonant charging coils" loose term not to upset MileHigh :) they share a core, the current phase in them is after the motor coil current phase because of the charge cap and how the "resonant charging circuit works" I'm fairly sure you understand that well and don't need me to explain that area, just saying for others. :) But yes three separate cores one each for the motor coils and one for the two charge coils to share.
The boost converter is controlled by the picaxe micro and the shutdown signal is provided by it too, but the signals are processed by the CD4047 chip "in hardware kind of thing" but I did that mainly because I can't write interrupt code. When I get my arduino I would very much appreciate your or anyone's help to use that for pulse processing.
Since I've made some small changes to the circuit and an additional option for high current pulses by load switching I'll make a video and try to properly explain things. I've cleaned up the wiring somewhat but I want to clean it up more first so everything can be seen clearly. A person on another forum is interested to try it out so I need to come up with a working formula and may well build another smaller higher voltage higher speed motor in a different form.
Still my halls have not arrived. The rpr 220 photo reflectors are a bit of trouble because they can be affected by bright light, the circuit i made has a sensitivity adjustment and the choice of inverted or non inverted signals depending on if reflector strips or light absorbing strips or grooves are used.
If while using generator coils to power LED's and I take all the released flyback out of the system to cap pulse charge a battery the motor runs a bit slower but charges the battery or runs a load, however if I use my return circuit, the motor runs faster (still generating for the LED's) but uses the same input power, so the energy goes either one place or the other. I use no heatsinks, even with more than 36 Watts input. No hot, barely warm.
Not sure where I will post about it yet, but i would dearly like to continue and develop the pulse control you guys spoke of previously, I think this motor design has merit, it runs smooth and efficiently in "pulse mode" with minimal input, but can also run smooth and with good power driving loads with wider pulse widths, I find 40% is about best, I would have thought 50% but 30% is ok 40 is best for loads.
The charging coil aiding the rotor and increasing the motor cap voltage principal works without the inductive return, they are separate idea's.
Also I ought to correct myself a few times to be sure it gets out, I found that with my motor because of the charging coil I don't require the "L3" inductor in the return circuit, if no charging coil is used as in a regular pulse motor the "L3" inductor should have a lot more inductance than I showed in the drawing. Basically with my motor the MC-2 Charging coil is the impedance that causes the return cap to charge to a high voltage then discharge when it can through the charging coil, so I kind of tricked myself there, the cap can be switched once the coil discharge reaches a certain drain voltage if desired rather than an inductor.
I'll try to get things together in the next day or two so I can show more clearly the circuit and all the details as it is working on the bench.
I do understand I am a very bad explainer and it's no wonder people don't always get what I "trying " to say. My bad, no doubt.
Oh TK the RPR circuit reads the rotor strips and sends the signal to the CD4047 which is configured in "monostable mode" for retriggering. and I use the "555 diode trick" to get less than 50% duty for the "oscillator out pin" output. :) The R-C network determines the PW and I can switch to 50% duty ect.. Crude but very effective. :)
Cheers
@TinselKoala
QuoteSo 10 uF at 100 volts is 0.05 Joules, and if the rotor dissipates 5 mW it gets 10 seconds of drive. So we are in the ball park of plausibility, based on the behaviour of the rotor, but I am still skeptical about where the cap gets a full 100 volt charge.
It charges really fast just by blowing on it. One simple flick of the finger sends it up over 10 volts almost instantly.
@Farmhand
That sounds like a really amazing motor. I am looking forward to seeing the video.
I just posted this over at: http://laserhacker.com/forum/index.php?topic=155.0 (http://laserhacker.com/forum/index.php?topic=155.0)
Hi Magluvin,
QuoteAlso from what I understand from the vids is that the motor operates as a motor and it generates. If you put a diode like in the second vid, is series with all the rest, we can only have one or the other, unless the diode is shorted internally or it has a reverse breakdown that the gen portion of the operation can break.
This will help: http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/diodes_03.php (http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/diodes_03.php)
"Typically a germanium device may have a reverse leakage current of several micro-Amperes but in silicon devices it is much smaller, only a few nano-Amperes"
I have the germanium diode there to let the rotor function as a generator when accelerated while using the leakage current to keep the rotor spinning when free spinning. I was only using it while experimenting with the film capacitors.
QuoteLaser said in the second vid that voltages can get to be really high across the 10uf cap. Im fairly positive that he means that when he speeds it up, the voltage goes up(generation) and if your not speeding it up it is acting like a motor, of which he says it takes a while for the voltage in the cap to be depleted.
Exactly. One light spin with my finger tip sends the 10uF film cap up over 10 volts.
QuoteAnd Lasersaber, could you please just poke in here or there so that we know you are still with us? The spoon feeding and then no communications at all is hard on our imaginations, if you know what I mean. Hope all is well, and thanks for showing.
Sorry, I am really busy with work, plus every spare moment I have been experimenting with this little motor. I have done hundreds of different experiments with the motor over the last few nights. I even tried running it off a piece of Barium titanate transducer! I have been having a blast and have seen some insanely long run times on small capacitors. I am currently printing EZ Spin version three with cone shaped bobbins plus a new modular design that will make testing different configurations very easy. The coils snap in and out allowing for easy testing of different coil windings etc. I am really interested in air core coils that accelerate the motor while shorted. I will keep trying to get it to self-run in spite of my doubts that such a thing is possible. I like trying for the impossible and giving it my best shot. Already it has been paying off on this little motor. Prior to this project I would not have thought it possible to easily build a home made motor that spins at a decent RPM while using 1 micro amp. My previous record was around 20 micro amps and that rotor was much smaller, weighed less and spun slower while using the exact same bearings as this current motor.
@all
Regarding the reed, I had done some testing on reeds back in 2008 and posted results at this thread;
http://www.overunity.com/3972/the-tesla-project/msg129703/#msg129703 (http://www.overunity.com/3972/the-tesla-project/msg129703/#msg129703)
If you can find a separate solenoid air core coil and put the reed through it. The only thing is how to use it in such a set-up. Maybe put that solenoid coil is series with one of the 6 coils and use the 5 others in a series circuit with the cap while the reed itself is between coils 3 and 4 (of 5). This way will eliminate the reed positioning problem since timing will be on coil 6 via a reed with quenching solenoid.
Neos have a very strong effect on the reed making it stick much longer and using the reed outside the wheel might be a way to look at the problem. hehehe
The main point is there are many ways to play around with such a set-up.
Example from @conradelektro image of his scope (see below). For me the thickness of the rise is showing how the magnets and coils are not perfectly aligned at 60 degrees so you are getting six rises clumped into the same overall instance. This is normal for a hand made wheel, By contrast, the EZ motor should show a thinner and either higher or more intense rise since that motor was made using perfect magnet/coil alignment.
One main question will be equal number of coils to magnets or an even/odd mix. I am thinking it will be even/odd as being better because it will really provide the cascade effect to the series coils and not a timed effect on equal coils. That mean two rotors, one with even number and one with odd to experiment the differences.
I am looking into getting myself an @LS wheel.
Seems all I have to do is use the design and find a local printerman then wind the coils and mount the magnets.
I have a better idea, maybe I can buy @Lasersaber's. hehehehehehehehehehehe
I would like to add some other features if possible because I already foresee the variables towards expansion. But the software seems to be very expensive.
http://www.autodesk.com/products/autodesk-3ds-max-design/buy (http://www.autodesk.com/products/autodesk-3ds-max-design/buy)
OUCH!!!!!!!!!
wattsup
Added:
Regarding the germanium diode, I don't think the reverse threshold will play into this because the frequencies are really not high enough, unless there are harmonics being created. Now if you tried the same thing with a diode carousel with regular diode "opening" at .7 volts instead of .2 volts of the germanium diode, that may provide a better cannon effect on the cap since the voltage would have to rise higher to hit the cap. But again, any time you talk diodes, you would need a diode carousel to test many models to find the best one while the rotor is turning.
@lasersaber: thanks for the response, I think your motor is really neat. I'd be building one myself but I don't have my precision tooling available at present, nor any fine magnet wire.
A comment on runtimes: Since you have such a finely-spinning rotor, perhaps dissipating only a few milliWatts or less in bearing and windage friction, it will spin a long time from just an initial spin, with no source of power at all. So the addition of power from a capacitor will increase the time it takes to run down from a given start RPM. (I don't think you are accelerating from a standing start, are you?) It is this difference in rundown times, rather than the absolute time, that is most important, I think.
So, it would be interesting to compare rundown times from a known starting RPM in both conditions: 1) no cap/diode, coil circuit just open; 2) coil/cap in circuit, with cap charged to its stable voltage for that starting RPM.
It would also be very interesting to see just what the power dissipation of the rotor is, using the technique of calculating its MoI and timing some unpowered rundowns from a known RPM. This will give an average "mechanical" power dissipation value, that you can then compare to the rate of energy provided by the capacitor during a powered rundown...eventually leading to an overall efficiency value.
Nice work, I really wish I could build my own to play with. If I build with #27 wire (all I've got) it will be massive !
Has anyone tried to use blender 3d modeling tool?
http://www.blender.org/ (http://www.blender.org/)
Blender website says that it has a module for 3d printers.
@Farmhand: Thanks, understood perfectly, so far I think.
For my information to use while fiddling with Arduino code:
As I gather it, then, to interface with an Arduino or other controller we simply need to provide the clock signals from it to the gate inputs shown in the blueprint, right? And we want to be able to vary the timing (delay between "sensor triggered" input and "pulse to mosfets" output) and the dwell (pulse "on" proportion or duty cycle), right?
Can you please sketch a preferred timing diagram for all the mosfet inputs? That would also help to understand the circuit.
Something like this:
Sensor: __________/--------\_____________/---------\_________
MOS1 : ____________/---------\_____________/---------\_______
MOS2 : ----------------\_______/-----------------\________/-------
etc. I'm sure you know what I mean.
thanks--TK
Quote from: schuler on May 31, 2013, 12:59:22 PM
Has anyone tried to use blender 3d modeling tool?
http://www.blender.org/ (http://www.blender.org/)
Blender website says that it has a module for 3d printers.
I've had blender installed for quite a while but the learning curve seems pretty steep and all I've been able to do is make a cube and rotate it ... so that would be a "no" from me.
Wattsup said:
QuoteExample from @conradelektro image of his scope (see below). For me the thickness of the rise is showing how the magnets and coils are not perfectly aligned at 60 degrees so you are getting six rises clumped into the same overall instance. This is normal for a hand made wheel, By contrast, the EZ motor should show a thinner and either higher or more intense rise since that motor was made using perfect magnet/coil alignment.
I agree, I think.
Quote
One main question will be equal number of coils to magnets or an even/odd mix. I am thinking it will be even/odd as being better because it will really provide the cascade effect to the series coils and not a timed effect on equal coils. That mean two rotors, one with even number and one with odd to experiment the differences.
Not necessarily "odd-even" but "relatively prime", that is with no common factors. Like 5 and 6, or 3 and 5, or 9 and 11. 3 and 6 would not qualify because 6 = 2x3.
7 and 8 are good choices. So you could have an 8-coil stator and rotors with 7 and 8 magnets.
I thought about this too and I dunno. I think if each coil is separately controlled and fired then the relative-prime strategy might be best, but I can't see it working well if all coils are fired at once, like the series or parallel circuits would do.
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 31, 2013, 01:08:33 PM
@Farmhand: Thanks, understood perfectly, so far I think.
For my information to use while fiddling with Arduino code:
As I gather it, then, to interface with an Arduino or other controller we simply need to provide the clock signals from it to the gate inputs shown in the blueprint, right? And we want to be able to vary the timing (delay between "sensor triggered" input and "pulse to mosfets" output) and the dwell (pulse "on" proportion or duty cycle), right?
Can you please sketch a preferred timing diagram for all the mosfet inputs? That would also help to understand the circuit.
Something like this:
Sensor: __________/--------\_____________/---------\_________
MOS1 : ____________/---------\_____________/---------\_______
MOS2 : ----------------\_______/-----------------\________/-------
etc. I'm sure you know what I mean.
thanks--TK
Please bear with me if I am seeming to repeat myself, this is to try to help explain it for all TK not just you. :) I think i'm trying to explain too many things at once and their relations to each other.
Yeah I know what you mean but there is not really anything to draw. Both Motor switches are in parallel, they switch together, they share a driver chip. I think you mean for a second switching phase, I haven't employed a second switching phase yet. With a fixed sensor the timing would need to be adjusted to suit the rpm and the Pulse width adjusted to limit speed, if a load is detected the pulse width should go to maximum and the voltage automatically boosted via the circuit boost converter till the rpm becomes stable or over idle, all the while keeping timing at optimum, then the setup should adjust values back to keep the rpm at the desired rate.
The way it is now the timing is adjusted by moving the sensor, which works OK for a given load but the pulse width is only optimum when the motor is spinning at the desired rate, when the motor is coming up to speed the PW is always too narrow which is the limiting factor for the power when loaded, if the pulse width widens as the motor is slowed from loading the drop off in torque will be much less or none. Basically when the motor is loaded and slows "as it is" it has less and less power due to less and less PW and so less input power which means the load has more and more slowing effect as the rotor gets slower. If the motor slows the PW needs to widen as it slows to maintain the 40 % duty or optimum duty, when the motor reaches the desired terminal rpm in free running the PW should be auto adjusted back and the input voltage auto adjusted down to keep the rpm at the desired rate, all the while keeping the timing at optimum.
I've made the first part of the video to explain the charging circuit and some other things. Now I'll make part 2 to explain what I missed and show it working.
I think it is quite confusing and as I said I'm not a good explainer, I'm the type of person who doesn't understand why others don't see what I see, so I fail to explain myself properly. I take it for granted that others see what is in my head at times and I know that's not conducive to getting people to see what I see. I don't see dead people or anything :) Just working devices. I understand how difficult it is to "get" what a person might be trying to convey at times so all I can do is keep trying. All i can say is that it works and is an obvious improvement to a regular pulse motor when the comparison is so easy, slide the coil away the rotor slows down, slide the coil in close the motor speeds up, but it's not as simple as just adding another motor coil because the extra torque is at extremely low cost, as the magnetizing force is already happening in the charging coil as a result of making an increased voltage for the motor coils and the force is shifted in phase to the motor coils so the input power to the rotor is over a longer period.
I want to forget the inductive return part of the circuit and explain the main thing I made the motor to demonstrate. That is the
two driving phases from one switching event using the charging circuit coil to aid the rotation. Everything else is secondary to that principal.
I used Tesla's Ignition coil patent drawing to explain it and the patent should be read to get his explanation of the function of the charging circuit. For those who don't get it yet.
In this video I explain about the charging circuit and how I am applying it to my motor. The next video I'll explain more about the circuitry and show it powering some load and some scope vision to show what I mean about some things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUxFHPMa65A
Applying the resonant charging circuit to a motor is a good idea and it works, I don't think anyone has done it like I am doing it before, but i may be mistaken, nonetheless it works and is very useful, as well as particularly and perfectly suited to improve the power/torque of a pulse motor in two or more ways. I am securing a difference in phase between two "series coils" so as to provide a second driving phase from the charging coil as it increases the cap voltage for the motor coils. If people don't "get" it or use it it's their loss, but I'm going to keep explaining it so there is no mistake that the idea to apply the principal to a motor was mine, that the principal is Tesla's charging circuit, and I am open sourcing the application even though I am the only one developing it at this time. I know some will help if they can and I appreciate that more than folks can imagine. It's the basic principal I want to get across first, and show the benefit. With the basic principal understood then my intentions become more obvious. The details can't be considered too much without the principal and the intended application of it being understood.
Cheers
Nice motor but I've been down this rd b4. It leads to slow rundown times but never ou. I hate to be a skeptic but the thing aint gonna work in selfrun or selfloop mode. Even the Lutech motor can never self loop even tho it appears to put out more energy than it consumes. The reason why is because the output measurements are all incorrect as the wrong equipment is used to measure the current which is pulsed.
OM
Hi Oscar, I assume you're referring to LaserSaber's motor ? If so I agree. I shouldn't need to ask and it's my own fault for posting about my motor in someone else's thread. I just wanted to show that almost any setup can take a long time to run down if it's setup to do so. Sometimes it's difficult to know if a claim of extra energy has been made or not. I'm not sure that's been claimed here. LaserSabers setup sure is neat though.
My own goals is not to self run or make OU, it's just to design and build a motor to take advantage of the charging circuit ect. I first thought it was obvious enough not to need it's own thread but I think it might. I didn't mean to go off topic. My apologies.
Cheers
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 31, 2013, 12:58:15 PM
I really wish I could build my own to play with. If I build with #27 wire (all I've got) it will be massive !
27awg is 4 times the diameter of 42awg. If Lasers coils are 1/2 in dia, then the 27awg would be near 2in in dia, but thats only for the same number of turns. Havnt looked up the resistance differences,will be digging in this afternoon, but I think 42awg will be more than 4 times the resistance of the 27awg. Would have to look that up. But from what I imagine, it could be near 16-20 times difference considering the square area of the two, or to say the 27 has much greater volume of copper than just 4 times.
So to be in the same ballpark, yea, it would be massive. But it would be somthin to see, thats for sure. ;) One thing about building bigger, its much easier to get accuracy in the build.
Im working out a design that will use more smaller coils. If you have read my analogy of audio speakers and motors, I think more is better when it comes to efficiency.
1 speaker 100w 100db But 2 speakers 100w(total 50w each) 103db
4 speakers 100w(tot 25w each) 106db ;) And so on.
Mags
Hi Conrad,
That is a very nice build.
Hi Wattsup,
There are some alternative open source 3D modeling tools.
FreeCad is coming along pretty nice.
http://www.freecadweb.org
Blender has a steep learning curve on the GUI but is feature rich once figured out.
http://www.blender.org/
OpenSCAD for a more coded parametric design.
http://www.openscad.org/
Wings 3D Is good for mesh editing
http://www.wings3d.com/
Meshlab is good for cleaning/repairing a final mesh.
http://meshlab.sourceforge.net/
Here's a list of some more free modelers
http://www.3ders.org/3d-software/3d-software-list.html
Quote from: Magluvin on June 01, 2013, 10:12:19 AM
27awg is 4 times the diameter of 42awg. If Lasers coils are 1/2 in dia, then the 27awg would be near 2in in dia, but thats only for the same number of turns. Havnt looked up the resistance differences,will be digging in this afternoon, but I think 42awg will be more than 4 times the resistance of the 27awg. Would have to look that up. But from what I imagine, it could be near 16-20 times difference considering the square area of the two, or to say the 27 has much greater volume of copper than just 4 times.
Made a mistake in the difference in wire. 30awg is 4 times the dia of 42 awg. I had that number in my head from the other day when I made that comparison. The 27awg is near 6 times the diameter. So massive is a good word for it. ;)
Mags
27awg 52ohms 1000ft
30awg 105ohms 1000ft
Have not found an ohms rating for 42 awg yet but 40awg is about 1011ohms 1000ft
I was considering the other day using 30awg I have around, but now no.
Mags
hello all
there is also a list with intermediate AWG sizes (from alcatel)
attached the one at hand, but if anyone interested I may look for the other and post it too.
cheers
edit: a very good one here www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
Quote from: ALVARO_CS on June 01, 2013, 05:15:16 PM
hello all
there is also a list with intermediate AWG sizes (from alcatel)
attached the one at hand, but if anyone interested I may look for the other and post it too.
cheers
edit: a very good one here www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm (http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm)
Thanks Al
This chart is strange. lol Theres a lot to figure out, like ft per Lb then ohms/Lb. I like the linked one, but still no 42awg ratings. Im sure there is something out there.
I would venture to say that Lasers motor coils in series is in the thousands of ohms. Im not sure how much of that roll of 42awg/6700ft that he used on the 12 coils. Maybe he used more than one roll. Dunno.
Mags
Quote from: webby1 on June 01, 2013, 07:59:51 PM
http://www.mwswire.com/barecu6.htm (http://www.mwswire.com/barecu6.htm)
Maybe this is good enough
Thanks Webby ;) Man, imagine 46awg. It must be like hair. One chart went to 55awg :o :o but no resistance numbers for 41awg and up.
Excellent chart. It even shows the range of resistance the wire can be. ;)
So 42 awg is around 1500 to 1800ohms per 1000ft. The roll Laser has shown in the 6 coil vid can be 10,000 ohms or better. Pretty wild stuff. lol the wire is so thin, if you didnt count the turns, each coil could be several layers off from one another without noticing visually im sure. ;D
Im looking into making a version of the motor with more coils but smaller and using 1/4 x 1/8 mags then try 1/2 x 1/8 then 1/2 x 3/8. I have these already. Just messing with the design for fitting coil geometries on Cinema 4D to see just how many coils I might wish to wind.
I am ordering the wire in 42 and looking at some smaller to try some things. ;)
Mags
Quote from: webby1 on June 01, 2013, 07:59:51 PM
http://www.mwswire.com/barecu6.htm (http://www.mwswire.com/barecu6.htm)
Maybe this is good enough
Does it float?
Quote from: webby1 on June 02, 2013, 09:28:25 AM
Not unless it is fashioned in the correct shape :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUD78P7pzvY#t=1h22m30s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUD78P7pzvY#t=1h22m30s)
The link should take you to 1 hour 22 minutes 30 seconds into the video.
@LaserSaber
Thanks again for all your works. I need you to please bear with me in one instance so we can remove all possible doubts that may occur now or in the future. We need to get all the possible potential objections out of the way on the outset.
So here goes regarding your last video using the polycap and germanium diode.
From what we can see, you put small lengths of copper wire between the coil posts so you can then solder the wires coming from the two coils sharing that copper wire.
The problem arises, well not a problem but more of an uncertainty arises at the coil post that is also the top bridge to hold the rotor shaft in place. I am showing it below where you have the cap and diode and the copper wire going from left to right (right is the bridge post) as there is a second copper wire going inside the bridge post that you connected to the diode. This leaves that part open to possible speculations that is unnecessary for such a simple device.
So what I am asking is can you please make a 1 minute video showing the same EZ motor turning but snip the copper wire where I show an "X". This will remove all hassles and show that the device is exactly in series, coils to reed to cap to diode to coils.
Thanks a heep if you can do this.
wattsup
PS: I know from your intent to make such a clean and open build that you are not playing games but I think this one little aspect should be addressed. Once you can do that, then we can put @Magluvin's apprehension to rest and move forward to explain how such a wheel can function with a series diode. I think I know why but I need the above to be addressed first just for clarity.
Is that a peanut-butter jar lid for the rotor? Great minds think alike..... I did the same thing for my example Bedini SGM build.
Would somebody remind me please... how many magnets in the rotor, and are they all oriented same pole out?
Quote from: TinselKoala on June 02, 2013, 03:52:55 PM
Is that a peanut-butter jar lid for the rotor? Great minds think alike..... I did the same thing for my example Bedini SGM build.
Would somebody remind me please... how many magnets in the rotor, and are they all oriented same pole out?
@TK, @TK, @TK
The rotor was 3D printed with the round magnet recesses built in.
There are 6 magnets on the rotor all N out, and there are either 6 or 12 coils that are NSNSNS or NSNSNSNSNSNS.
Now imagine if that rotor was a flat plate with a thin rim rising on the outer radius that held the magnets, then you could also put coils on the inside of the rotor rim and use the south polarities as well.
wattsup
Quote from: wattsup on June 02, 2013, 04:31:16 PM
@TK, @TK, @TK
The rotor was 3D printed with the round magnet recesses built in.
Heh.... well, I'm sure it would make a fine peanut butter jar lid, too.
Quote
There are 6 magnets on the rotor all N out, and there are either 6 or 12 coils that are NSNSNS or NSNSNSNSNSNS.
OK, got it, understood, thanks. I tried all possible arrangements with Orbette's generator coils and also settled on one polarity out and alternating gen coil polarities.
Quote
Now imagine if that rotor was a flat plate with a thin rim rising on the outer radius that held the magnets, then you could also put coils on the inside of the rotor rim and use the south polarities as well.
wattsup
Or that the coils were on curved C- cores, like toroids with a gap, and the rotor magnets passed through the gap.
Ah, the 3-d printer is making my machining skills obsolete. Especially when I don't even have my machine tools handy.
:'(
Quote from: webby1 on June 03, 2013, 02:21:37 PM
I am on vacation so it took a bit to get the video,, that and my Linux sound is broken for some reason and I am to lazy to fix it on this laptop,, used another OS.
Interesting talk with Mark.
Right now I am playing with other folks and other ideas :)
If you have lost faith in Mister Wayne Travis and his promises, it would be nice if you simply came out and said so, especially after all the insults and so on that the True Believers dished out so emphatically towards those of us who "told you so". Travis was claiming years ago that he had a "self running" machine that produced excess usable power. Now.... he isn't even claiming that much any more, is he. Probably because he got a warning from his lawyers, that selling something you don't have isn't exactly kosher.
Quote from: webby1 on June 03, 2013, 10:27:53 PM
Putting words where none were typed TK, is not kosher, nor is making inferences when none were implied.
What part of the word "if" do you not understand?
Quote
Wayne's stuff is past what I can help with.
That was true from the very beginning. Wayne's stuff is past anybody's help.
Quote
Insults, mockery and what not came from both sides TK,, that includes you.
If somebody told you that he could light up a light bulb using a piece of moldy cheese, and kept on keeping on telling you that without ever providing any real evidence, and then told you that you were stupid for disbelieving in Cheese Power, while he paid someone else to make a Velveeta Volcano in the back yard ... I think that you would be entirely justified in mocking him, don't you?
At least I provide you with some evidence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frp03muquAo
Quote from: webby1 on June 04, 2013, 01:59:18 AM
you are creative at making videos and stuff like that,, to bad that sarcasm and videos,,
Never mind TK,, your attitude leaves
Now don't go getting all incoherent on me there Webby, it's just a video.
But if you can see that it's silly to claim that Cheese Power is real, because you know a thing or two about cheese and power, in spite of two different measurements that agree ..... then you should be able to understand how silly Mister Wayne's claims of Buoyancy or Tilt-A-Zed power are to me and to some others. The issue of how the effect was produced is moot, you don't need to know how it was done, or see it run for three days, to know that it wasn't Cheese Power lighting up that bulb.
It was the Green Mold.
:o
Hi webby 1,
please take a bit more care with your messages. I've read reply 106 several
times and still I don't really understand what it means,
thank you, John.
Hey, Webby made a good profit off of Mister Wayne by building his layered demonstration model. But you, Minnie, actually contributed more to the understanding of Travis's system than Webby did with his construction.
By your excellent questions about fluid power and the head pressure and flow rates required to produce a given horsepower at a shaft, you showed that Travis's machines simply cannot do the power output claimed in the footprint claimed, no matter where the power is coming from. Since you need to turn a conventional generator to get electrical power out of a Travis system, it can be treated like a black box and analysed a step at a time going backwards from the generator. The generator is turned by a standard hydraulic motor, moving the black box boundary one more step back. The standard hydraulic motor MUST be supplied with fluid flow and pressure that corresponds to its shaft output, plus a little more to make up losses in the ordinary hydraulic system.
And there is nothing in what Mister Wayne has shown, demonstrated or proposed that can produce the ordinary flow rates and pressures required by the ordinary standard hydraulic motor to make the outputs claimed by Travis, nor any way to get a "self runner" out of his systems.
So Webby gets mad when this is pointed out, becomes irate and incoherent. The next step will probably be the insults and flames. What you will never see, though, is a "selfpowered" tabletop waterpump using a Zed. Oh... wait..... you CAN see one of those.... and we all know where ... on my YT channel.
;)
I want to apologise for hijacking this thread, which should be about LaserSaber's motor running on capacitors only. The Travis stuff is interesting but ultimately boring. He has even removed the nice animation from his website and has toned down his claims considerably. So no more about Travis in this thread, I promise.
:-X
after LASERSABRE.... Linoavac made a VIDEO with aplication of "Linoavac magnetic principle"
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FsFNbx0AWE (new point of view , after lasersaber)
.
.
also with a video general info of coils with magnets (kick magnetedCOIL)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybWA9wWfUbQ
.
after LASERSABRE.... Linoavac made a VIDEO with aplication of "Linoavac magnetic principle"
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FsFNbx0AWE (new point of view , after lasersaber)
.
.
also with a video general info of coils with magnets (kick magnetedCOIL)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybWA9wWfUbQ
.
@all
Wow, I never thought I would ever see @TK cutting the cheese on youtube. Next stop MIT. lol
So, after that rather scent filled interlude, let's all go back to our regular programming.
@LaserSaber replied to my question here...
http://laserhacker.com/forum/index.php?topic=155.msg1648#msg1648
Copied below......
Quote
Hi Wattsup,
I will explain with a corrected picture. There is a vertical piece of wire glued to the plastic that the 42 AGW wire from the bobbin is attached to. If you still do not understand I will explain it in my next video.
I have now printed a V3 design. I am just starting to wind the coils with 39 AGW wire. I am using the 39 AGW just because I have 10 lbs of it and need to use it up. I think the 42 AGW would work better but the V3 has bigger coils and I do not have enough 42 AGW oh hand.
I have been testing lot's of different configurations. It seems that I cannot get the good charging effect with the 6 coil 6 magnet motor. The charging really works will with the 6 magnet 12 coil arrangement. Something about the alternating coils seems to really make a big difference. I will be able to test this more on the V3 unit with it's snap in and out bobbins. I will have a lot to show on the next video. I just have to stop experimenting long enough to make another video. :-)
(See image below)
Unquote
Seems like the Autodesk 123D Design version 1.3 is not compatible with my Windows XP Professional 64 and I will never use Win7 even if you paid me.
http://www.123dapp.com/design#designDownloadDetails
I will download it anyway and try to install it.
wattsup
@Gyulasun: thank you for the Reed switch timing advise, specially the double Reed switch, also this Adams Motor design http://www.overunity.com/5446/a-self-charging-adams-motor/msg123037/#msg123037 (http://www.overunity.com/5446/a-self-charging-adams-motor/msg123037/#msg123037) seems to be interesting.
@TinselKoala: thank you for the Reed switch timing advise, specially the magnet on the opposite side of the Reed switch.
@Farmhand: thank you for showing the nice trigger circuits.
I was stuck in a mountain region in Austria for almost three days due to flooding and landslides, fortunately in a nice hotel and all necessities kept working. Many people were not so lucky and lost their house in Austria, Germany and Czechoslovakia.
I had a lot of time to think about experiments with my 6 coil Lasersaber 3D-printed motor replication, which I will start tomorrow.
Greetings, Conrad
@all
Hmmmmmm. I managed to install the Autodesk 123D Design but when I go to open an existing file, it does not recognize @LaserSabers *.stl files. I guess that means I will have to draw my own or just go with the files @LS put up and have the parts printed in via a local 3D print guy. Rats.
wattsup
Hi Wattsup,
Normally the newer versions within a design software are made to downward compatible with the older version's files but in case LS say uses an old enough version and then later the newer versions went through some significant developments than it may not be valid any more. So by knowing the version number of LS's Autodesk (its exact name too) and then studying the records of the version modifications on the Autodesk site may reveal something.
Gyula
STL files are not the best format for transfer of 3d cad data, these are mainly for 3d printing.
A better format for use with CNC machines would be SAT or even the old IGES format.
I did some tests with my 6 coil pulse motor (replication of Lasersabers's first 3D-printed pulse motor):
See my YouTube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFvstgIRuOA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFvstgIRuOA) (best viewed with 720p)
The two most important circuits are added. The aim of the tests was "charging a 1000 µF electrolytic capacitor" by blowing air over the rim of the rotor in order to turn it into a generator.
Note: the cap is charged up from 0 Volt (no battery and no power supply used, no initial charge, may be a residual charge of about 5 mV).
Astonishing, when shortening the coils with a Reed switch the cap could be charged to a higher Voltage (2 Volt without a Reed switch, 4 Volt with a Reed switch shortening the coils).
My next test will be a double Reed switch in order to limit the ON-time of the Reed switch combination. But I still have to build the adjustable double Reed switch. The double Reed switch idea was suggested by Gyulasun. I will also try to adjust the ON-time of the Reed switch with a magnet behind the Reed switch as suggested by TinselKoala.
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad,
It is very good you got back home safe and sound escaping from the huge flooding raging in Central Europe.
Very good tests! I am trying to find explanation on the double DC voltage received in generator mode with using the reed switch.
(I assume you tried to keep the rotor speed more or less the same in both cases i.e. without and with the reed switch, right? Also what you wrote: "Astonishing, when shortening the coils with a Reed switch the cap could be charged to a higher Voltage (2 Volt without a Reed switch, 4 Volt with a Reed switch shortening the coils." this means the reed switch was actually in series with the coils as the schematic shows and NOT shorting the coils, right?).
With these two assumptions, I think when the reed switches OFF, the voltage spike across the series coils charges up either the reed switch self capacitance (a few pF with the wireing) or the optional parallel cap (you drew 100 nF) and this charged up capacitor behaves as a voltage source (with higher voltage amplitude than the 1000 uF has) hence its charge goes into the 1000 uF via the coils and the diode. This could be checked by connecting a scope probe in parallel with the reed switch (probe ground clip to 1000 uF negative line) and 'air-blow up' the rotor to the speed where the 4V DC is received in the 1000 uF.
Earlier I tended to accept that in LaserSaber's setup the germanium diode conducted backwards (Ge diodes indeed have a few uA reverse current) so the spike's was able to drive charging current backwards via the diode into the 10 or 1000 uF cap but now that you have used Silicon diode, this may not fully be the explanation. Si diodes have pico or nanoAmper reverse current.
If the scope shows a positive spike-like pulse format across the reed switch when the reed is just off, then you may try to use different capacitor values in parallel to find the best value which can give the highest DC value in the 1000 uF. When first chacking the waveform across the reed with the scope probe, do not use the 100 nF in parallel with the reed, probe will add 15 pF in parallel with the reed's self cap.)
Thanks, Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on June 05, 2013, 05:48:14 PM
(I assume you tried to keep the rotor speed more or less the same in both cases i.e. without and with the reed switch, right? Also what you wrote: "Astonishing, when shortening the coils with a Reed switch the cap could be charged to a higher Voltage (2 Volt without a Reed switch, 4 Volt with a Reed switch shortening the coils." this means the reed switch was actually in series with the coils as the schematic shows and NOT shorting the coils, right?).
Earlier I tended to accept that in LaserSaber's setup the germanium diode conducted backwards (Ge diodes indeed have a few uA reverse current) so the spike's was able to drive charging current backwards via the diode into the 10 or 1000 uF cap but now that you have used Silicon diode, this may not fully be the explanation. Si diodes have pico or nanoAmper reverse current.
If the scope shows a positive spike-like pulse format across the reed switch when the reed is just off, then you may try to use different capacitor values in parallel to find the best value which can give the highest DC value in the 1000 uF.
Thanks, Gyula
I tried to always generate about the same peak rotor speed. When I went higher the rotor tilted away from the top magnet (which holds the axle in a vertical position), therefore I always tried to stay just below this mechanical limit of my motor. This "peak rpm" is visible because the axle starts to wobble.
I did the tests with and without the 100 nF cap over the Reed switch. No difference. So, this 100 nF cap is not the reason.
I did the tests with many different diodes, the best result (quickest charging of the 1000 µF cap) was with the SB3100.
The slowest charging happened with the 1N5711 which has only 20 nA reverse current. Therefore I tend to believe the explanation, that the diode reverse current goes into the coils and is "shortened" by the Reed switch, which causes a back EMF spike. This back EMF spike might cause the higher Voltage.
The circuit diagram is correct (Reed switch after the coils). I call this "shortening the coils" because the diode reverse current is "shortened" to GND. This might be a wrong terminology.
I also tried a 4 µF electrolytic capacitor (instead of the 1000 µF one) and could charge up to 7 Volt with the reed switch (and to 4 Volt without the reed switch). But the results were not consistent, I have to repeat this. 1000 µF and more have a "slowing everything down effect", which helps when doing tests and measurements.
Tomorrow I will attempt some scope shots over the coils and over the Reed switch in order to find the reason for the higher Voltage when using the Reed switch.
I also want to try this Adams Motor circuit, which you posted some days ago (is attached). But I need the "double Reed switch" for that. I have enough Reed switches, but it takes time to build a contraption holding to Reed switches so that their relative position can be adjusted.
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad,
Well, the SB3100 Schottky diode has 500 uA reverse current (at 25°C ambient temp, from data sheet) so this may confirm the charging process. This makes me pondering: what if you connect (say) a 100 kOhm resistor in parallel with the diode? (to increase greatly its "reverse" leakage...), of course this cuts back a little on the peak DC across the 1000 uF cap. (using a 1 MOhm potmeter as variable resistor may help finding the best compromise...)
Thanks, Gyula
!!!!!!! Correction !!!!!!:
Both charging circuits shown in my video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFvstgIRuOA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFvstgIRuOA) are able to charge the 1000 µF electrolytic capacitor to about the same Voltage (4 V to 4.5 V). When testing the most simple circuit (diode only) the rotor turned more slowly, therefore the charge of the cap only went up to about 2 Volt.
There is no surprising effect !!!!!!!!!
Both charging circuits published in my post http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg362425/#msg362425 (http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg362425/#msg362425) are correct, but they have about the same charging effect. The 1000 µF electrolytic capacitor can be charged up to about 4 V to 4.5 V by blowing air over the rotor.
Sorry about the stupid error. When testing the charging circuit with the Reed switch I was blowing the air over the rotor more skilfully (training effect), therefore it turned faster than in my initial tests with only a diode (no Reed switch). Today I repeated the tests more carefully and it turned out, that both charging circuits give about the same results.
Still, the diode SB3100 worked best (fastest charging of the cap with both charging circuits).
Greetings, Conrad
New cap charging attempt, see the attached circuit and photo.
This circuit allows to run the setup as a generator (no battery attached, 1000 µF electrolytic capacitor can be charged to about 1.5 V by turning the rotor with an air jet) or as a pulse motor (battery connected).
But the diode has a negative effect on the pulse motor mode. The setup consumes more power (about 600 µA instead of 500 µA) and the rotor turns a little bit more slowly.
My conclusion after my error and my tests: There is nothing surprising!
Once the rotor has very little friction one can play "cap charging games" (by speeding up the rotor with an air jet and by placing a rectifier diode in the circuit) with the expected results.
Once the rotor has very little friction one can make the pulse motor turn with very little power.
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad,
Quote
The circuit diagram is correct (Reed switch after the coils). I call this "shortening the coils" because the diode reverse current is "shortened" to GND. This might be a wrong terminology.
Okay, thanks for clarifying this. I knew the diagram was ok, so the word "shorten" (to cut in length) did not cause problem. To put it simply: the reed switch discharges the 1000 uF capacitor via the coils and via the reversed biased diode (discharge current depends mainly on the reverse current characteristic of the diode and the AC impedance of the series coils).
QuoteBut the diode has a negative effect on the pulse motor mode. The setup consumes more power (about 600 µA instead of 500 µA) and the rotor turns a little bit more slowly.
I think when you connect the diode in parallel with the coils, this may need a different reed switch position than when the diode is in series with the coils. The parallel diode keeps up the current in the coils when the reed already is OFF, so the reed needs to be in a position where its own ON time is less than in the case the diode is in series with the coils. IF you readjusted the reed to the parallel diode, then please disregard what I wrote.
Thanks for the measurements. You think now the waveform across the switch is not worth checking by the scope (when the diode is in series with the coils)?
Greetings, Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on June 06, 2013, 09:17:49 AM
Hi Conrad,
A) Okay, thanks for clarifying this. I knew the diagram was ok, so the word "shorten" (to cut in length) did not cause problem. To put it simply: the reed switch discharges the 1000 uF capacitor via the coils and via the reversed biased diode (discharge current depends mainly on the reverse current characteristic of the diode and the AC impedance of the series coils).
B) I think when you connect the diode in parallel with the coils, this may need a different reed switch position than when the diode is in series with the coils. The parallel diode keeps up the current in the coils when the reed already is OFF, so the reed needs to be in a position where its own ON time is less than in the case the diode is in series with the coils. IF you readjusted the reed to the parallel diode, then please disregard what I wrote.
C) Thanks for the measurements. You think now the waveform across the switch is not worth checking by the scope (when the diode is in series with the coils)?
Greetings, Gyula
ad A) It looks like the circuit turns into the simple circuit (only a diode) at the time when the Reed switch closes. The short time the Reed switch is closed seems to be enough to charge the cap in the usual way (by rectifying the sinus AC like current with the diode). I no longer see a miracle there. The diode is needed for rectification of the sine wave like AC generated by the coils. The reverse current of the diode seems to be irrelevant for charging the cap, only the forward Voltage is important (and should be as low as possible). The diode SB3100 seems to have a forward voltage of less than 200 mV and the 1N5711 only a little higher (as measured with my multimeter in diode test mode). The diode reverse currents is only important if one wants to run the setup as a pulse motor with such little current.
ad B) I tried to move the Reed switch around, and it is important where it is placed, but no difference in the optimal position could be found (with the diode parallel to the coil). Also with my "ring magnet spinner" I found that placing a diode (or LED) parallel to the coil had a small negative effect (the switch in the ring magnet spinner was a transistor at the same place where I have the Reed switch in my last charging circuit).
ad C) It is till interesting to do scope measurements, but first I want to go to a "double Reed switch". I see no special effect, therefore the incentive for me to investigate the Reed switch charging circuit or any charging circuit is low at the moment.
General remark:
Lasersaber claims to run his little 3D printed motors with less tan 1 µA. My motor needs 500 µA. This big difference can probably NOT be explained by lower friction in his setup and/or higher DC resistance of his coils.
I suspect it has much to do with the Reed switch ON-time which is about 50% in my motor. Therefore I want to go into the double Reed switch next (in order to bring the Reed switch ON time down to a fraction of what it is now).
I wish more people would build such a little motor so that we hear more opinions and get more test results. For me the only miracle left is the extremely low power consumption of Lasersabers 3D printed motors. Some information is missing and it has little to do with charging the cap when blowing air over the rotor. Just my gut feeling after my tests.
Greetings, Conrad
May I make a safety suggestion?
Builders of rotors containing magnets should not rely on glues or adhesives to hold their magnets in place. There should be some mechanical design feature that will absolutely prevent your magnets from being slung off the rotor when it's turning at high speed.
For example, in my Bedini motor I use a plastic jar lid for the rotor and all the magnets are mounted on the rim, but _inside_ the lid. A small bit of glue keeps them from sliding around but they are kept from flying off by the plastic of the lid itself. Other rotors I've made use cavities for the magnets but it is always impossible or at least very difficult for the magnets to fly off due to centrifugal force.
An uncontrolled NdBFe magnet flying across the room can be very dangerous. If it hits something it can shatter and red-hot bits of it will come flying off and may hit you in the eye. Or even worse.
QuoteI suspect it has much to do with the Reed switch ON-time which is about 50% in my motor. Therefore I want to go into the double Reed switch next (in order to bring the Reed switch ON time down to a fraction of what it is now).
You really should try a small biasing magnet on the side of the reed away from the rotor magnets. You might be surprised. Put the magnet on a small mount that you can hold steady and move around to find the best spot that will do what you want to the reed's duty cycle.
@conradelektro
Thanks for the testing and results.
I think that in your build the main limitation will be that they are 6 on 6. 6 magnets need 12 coils like @Lasersaber is using. The way I see it, there is 100% more usable energy in the 12 coils to make the same rotor turn.
The EZ motor should not need a battery or other input source.
But for your 6 on 6 we should not expect any more then what the effects show.
1) I did mention some time ago if you use a diode, then use a 1uf or smaller cap. Right now the diode and cap are more like a load then a pulse source. If you want to see some output, maybe put a diode between the last coil and the reed and the other side of the diode goes into a 100 or so cap and the other side of the cap goes to the first coil.
2) You tried with the reed on the negative side of the coil run. Maybe try it on the positive side as well.
3) Also maybe try the reed between coils 3 and 4. That is the most curious one for me when I get my one EZ motor type. hehehe
4) The other interesting and maybe easier alternative to your wheel is if you can add 6 more magnets, that would be 12M:6C and @Lasersabers is 6M:12C. Maybe that will give you more to work with and the extreme variance will be very interesting to experiment with in comparison to @Lasersabers.
5) The final variance is the magnet to coil surface area that we have to consider if we look at your results and compare it to @Lasersabers results. All of these factors will play an important role and any variance will affect the final results.
Thanks again for sharing.
wattsup
Hi Conrad,
Thanks for your answer, I understand and respect your points.
I would make a notice on the double reed switch: maybe you will have a more versatile double switch if you make it yourself from 2 single reeds because a real double reed is more difficult to "adjust" with small magnets than two separate ones (also double reeds are harder to find, though not impossible)
Greetings, Gyula
@TinselKoala: I just built a holder for the little biasing magnet and will test it tomorrow. By the way, the six magnets on the rotor have N facing outward (towards the coils), which polarity of the little magnet (on the opposite side Reed switch) should face the Reed switch? I guess it is also N? (I can turn the magnet around easily.)
@wattsup: thank you for the many suggestion, I will do what I can. So many possibilities. Looking forward to your build.
@Gyulasun: I intend to use two independent Reed switches which can be adjusted relative to each other. I did not know that one can buy a double Reed switch. I think that two Reed switches in series do not need biasing magnets, the determining factor for the ON-time will be their relative distance.
I try the biasing magnet (à la TinselKoala) first because it was easier to build (and can be done with one Reed switch only).
Does anyone have an idea why Lasersabers's 3D printed motors need so little current? My hunch is "very short Reed switch ON-time"? The DC resistance of his coils can not be much more than 2K to 3K Ohm in total?
Greetings, Conrad
First tests with the biasing magnet behind the reed switch:
It is difficult to adjust the biasing magnet, but once I succeeded I got a dramatic reduction of power consumption down to a few µA (rotor still turning slowly consistently). The Voltage on the very weak AAA battery went up because the power draw dropped so much (may be a hundred fold).
Because it is so very difficult to adjust biasing magnet and Reed switch (relative position to each other and relative position of both to the rotor; too many variables), it seems easier to build an adjustable double reed switch, which I will do tomorrow.
So, I have very strong indication that "ON-time of the Reed switch" is the miracle behind Lasersaber's below 1 µA power draw. May be Lasersaber's Reed switch behaves differently than my model (which likes to stay in the ON state when close to the rotor and does nothing when moved away too far, a very narrow operating range distance wise)?
I have to learn a lot about Reed switches before I get this right! I also just realized that I never tried to position the reed switch above the rotor, I always had it next to it. So many things to do wrong!
Greetings, Conrad
@conradelektro
Yes, the reed switch makes a huge difference.
This "How to Prepare a Reed Switch for a Pulse Motor" video might help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XfkejxtLgQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XfkejxtLgQ)
Another video that might be helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAPeC1JcZkI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAPeC1JcZkI)
Quote from: lasersaber on June 06, 2013, 03:59:44 PM
@conradelektro
Yes, the reed switch makes a huge difference.
This "How to Prepare a Reed Switch for a Pulse Motor" video might help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XfkejxtLgQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XfkejxtLgQ)
Another video that might be helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAPeC1JcZkI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAPeC1JcZkI)
Yes, that helps, thank you very much.
Greetings, Conrad
I used a new Reed switch and also tried two Reed switches, but making the ON-time of the Reed switch shorter does not reduce power draw significantly.
The only way to reduce power draw (to e.g. a few µA) is to introduce a resistance into the circuit. Lasersaber does it with a diode and the reverse current of the diode is enough to drive his little motors.
My motor is mechanically inferior to Lasersaber's motors therefore I need at least "200 µA at 1 Volt pulses" through the coils to overcome all mechanical hurdles.
In order to use the same circuit as Lasersaber I have to place a 5.6 K resistor parallel to the diode. This resistor then allows for enough current to drive the rotor slowly at 1 V supply Voltage. It simulates a diode with a 5.6 K reverse resistance (about 200 µA at 1 Volt). Gyulasun, thank you for the idea.
I can then do the same as Lasersaber with his motors, namely speeding up the rotor by blowing air over it, which charges the 1000 µF capacitor quickly to about 6 Volt, and it then rather quickly discharges moving the rotor. The rotor stops when the charge in the cap is lower than 1 V. I can not reach more than a few 100 rpm, therefore I only reach about 6 Volt over the cap. Lasersaber can spin it up his motors to a few 1000 rpm and reaches therefore up to a 100 Volt over the cap.
I can of course drive the rotor by providing at least 1 V over the cap (e.g. with a battery or a power supply).
Conclusion: I replicated Lasersabers experiments but not in a very impressive way, because my motor needs at least "200 µA at 1 V pulses" to move the rotor. Lasersaber's precise mechanical setup allows him to drive the rotor with a few µA. He also seems to use bigger magnets and more windings on his coils. Important is also a precise alignment of coils and magnets and a narrow gap between coils and magnets, which is particularly bad in my build.
A different question is average "power draw". When my motor turns very slowly with a 1 Volt power supply, average power draw is well below 200 µA. It is difficult to measure because the Multimeter jumps between meaningless Values. I have to try measurements with a scope (over a shunt, e.g. over the 5.6 K resistor).
Greetings, Conrad
QuoteThe only way to reduce power draw (to e.g. a few µA) is to introduce a resistance into the circuit. Lasersaber does it with a diode and the reverse current of the diode is enough to drive his little motors.
Actually the 1uA motor in this first video had no diode in use. See: http://youtu.be/Esphle_MsXI (http://youtu.be/Esphle_MsXI) The resistance comes from the 42 AGW wire itself. At anything under 5V I would use no diode at all and tune for the lowest possible uA current draw. Once you have achieved a current draw
under 5uA with no diode then start experimenting with diodes.
I am also interested in hooking up one of these motors in an Adams motor configuration. I also want to try using large flat 1.5" X 1/16" magnets with large thin pancake coils. I have so many ideas and so little time.
Hi Lasersaber,
Could you measure the DC resistance of one of your coils, out of the 12 coils? Of course if you happen to have an L meter, the inductance value for a single coil would also be useful.
Thanks, Gyula
Quote from: lasersaber on June 07, 2013, 11:14:06 AM
Actually the 1uA motor in this first video had no diode in use. See: http://youtu.be/Esphle_MsXI (http://youtu.be/Esphle_MsXI) The resistance comes from the 42 AGW wire itself. At anything under 5V I would use no diode at all and tune for the lowest possible uA current draw. Once you have achieved a current draw under 5uA with no diode then start experimenting with diodes.
@Lasersaber: what is the DC resistance of your coil (or all six coils in series) in your six coil motor?
Each of my six coils has a DC resistance of 90 Ohm, all six in series therefore about 540 Ohm.
Greetings, Conrad
P.S.: Power draw calculation for my pulse motor (over the resistor which is parallel to the diode):
Average power draw with a 6.8 K resistor is about 40 µA, with 2.2 K resistor it is about 120 µA. It also depends on the speed the rotor turns.
The reed switch is about 20% of the time ON.
I did some scope shots over a 10 Ohm shunt to calculate average power draw of my little pulse motor at 1 Volt supply Voltage (no diode, just the shunt, see circuit diagram in attached drawing). And a scope shot over the Reed switch to show its ON-time (between 20% and 30%, depending on Reed switch position and turning speed of the rotor). I have chosen a 1 Volt supply Voltage to make the rotor turn relatively slowly.
My Multimeter measurement of about 500 µA was confirmed.
Why does my pulse motor draw about 100 times more power than Lasersaber's six coil motor?
Is it the impedance of the coils?
Is it the mechanical set up (specially the crudeness of the build)?
It can not be the ON-time of the Reed switch, because it could not be made 100 times shorter!
Comments appreciated.
Remark: The rotor can not turn faster than a few 100 rpm because it is badly balanced. With a supply Voltage of about 6 Volt it jumps out of its bearing (terminal speed reached).
For further details and a photo see this post http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg362615/#msg362615 (http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg362615/#msg362615)
Greetings, Conrad
Quote from: conradelektro on June 07, 2013, 01:45:38 PM
Why does my pulse motor draw about 100 times more power than Lasersaber's six coil motor?
Is it the impedance of the coils?
Is it the mechanical set up (specially the crudeness of the build)?
Hi Conrad,
Thanks for the measurements. I think Lasersaber's coils has much higher impedances (DC resistance and inductance) than yours, this could be main reason for his 1 uA current draw.
Later I will comment if something useful occurs to me.
Greetings,
Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on June 06, 2013, 09:17:49 AM
I think when you connect the diode in parallel with the coils, this may need a different reed switch position than when the diode is in series with the coils. The parallel diode keeps up the current in the coils when the reed already is OFF, so the reed needs to be in a position where its own ON time is less than in the case the diode is in series with the coils. IF you readjusted the reed to the parallel diode, then please disregard what I wrote.
Thanks for the measurements. You think now the waveform across the switch is not worth checking by the scope (when the diode is in series with the coils)?
Greetings, Gyula
I would like to give my 2 cents on this point, it is one of the things I showed in the tests I did with my motor, when the coils are snubbed by a diode in parallel the current stops immediately as I showed, however when the coil can discharge into a higher voltage (such as a charge battery or some mechanism to allow a similar effect) the discharge then causes current to continue after the switch (reed or whatever) is turned off. In my experiment the current waveform showed that the current ceased immediately when the coil was snubbed by a parallel diode, but continued for some time when a charge battery or other mechanism is used. I can show the shots but they are already posted in the other thread I guess I'll have to look for them where they are posted and provide a link.
When the coil is snubbed by the parallel diode the input is less than when a charge battery is used, adjustments need to be made to keep the input the same when these things are changed, Gyula is correct about that, but I do disagree slightly on the effects or the reason/cause. I'll show why. I'll need a minute.
The shots are at the bottom of the post, linked below. Top shots are clamped (with the snubber diode) bottom shots are with a charge battery. The bottom of the "drain" shots are angled because of where the scope ground is placed (not at circuit ground) the mosfets switch properly, it's just because of where the circuit is scoped. The top traces are the current through the motor coil, the bottom the mosfet drain.
http://www.overunity.com/11350/confirming-the-delayed-lenz-effect/msg359288/#msg359288
If I can clarify anything I just wrote please say so. :)
Cheers
I think whats happening is when no snubbing diode is used the voltage is very high at the drain for some time, the effect of that exactly I can't say in conrads setup. But I think it would cause an effect different to snubbing and also different to a charge battery. With enough input it would destroy the mosfet. The snubber or the charge battery will save it but they will have different effects.
I think the scope shots show quite clearly the effect and I don't see any way it can be disputed. I did the experiment, I urge others to do it also and concur or disagree with my results, I can demonstrate the test on video. But that should not be necessary.
..
This shot below also shows it, but with my return circuit returning the discharge energy to the charging coil, as well as that if the frequency of my motor is correct I get both sinusoidal looking currents and voltage on the coils. mosfet "on time" is between points "B" and "C".
It's important to remember the current wave form in yellow at the top is upside down relative to the other and it's own polarity, i had to do that to display both wave forms at the same time.
The blue trace is the charging coil current and is the right way up, correct polarity displayed.
..
Note to moderator, message removed b/c it took so long to get it approved that it would have been lost way back.
Hi Farmhand,
Sorry that I did not follow your posts very thoroughly recently and missed your valuable insight on the direct effect of a diode (snubber) on stopping the current in the coil. I did not evaluate such snubber diodes in pulse motors, for I either charged capacitors or batteries from the collapsed field's energy when tinkered on such setups in the past.
Thanks for elaborating on it and for you patience to repeat it.
rgds, Gyula
Gyulasun wanted to see a scope shot over the Reed switch while the motor charges the cap (diode in the circuit).
Although my motor is not running by itself from the cap when a diode is put into the circuit, it well charges the cap (only to about 6 Volt, because the rotor can not turn faster than about 200 rpm due to its imbalance) when an air jet is blown over its rim area.
A) To understand what is happening one has to consider what is happening while the motor is running from the 1.3 Volt AAA battery and the rotor is sped up by blowing air over it.
Look at the two scope shots on the top of the attached drawing. While the motor is running from the battery no diode is in the circuit.
B) Then the battery is removed and a diode is put into the circuit. The motor only charges the cap once its speed overcomes the charge already in the cap.
Let's say the cap is charged up to 1 Volt. There is a certain rotor speed which induces an AC current into the coils which has a positive bump of 1 Volt. In order to charge the cap further the rotor speed has to be higher than the one which caused 1 Volt in the cap.
Look at the scope shot on the bottom of the attached drawing.
C) My conclusion:
The charging of the cap when a diode is in the circuit (and the motor runs from the cap) happens when the reed switch is ON and when the rotor speed is higher than would be necessary to cause the momentary Voltage in the cap.
D) The position of the Reed switch relative to a coil and the direction of the turning of the rotor have to be correct if charging should happen. This Reed switch position is also optimal for running the motor as a pulse motor.
E) Might be interesting: with a 1.3 Volt AAA battery the motor consumes about 500 µA and turns with about 150 rpm (rpm measurement with scope, rotor stabilises at a certain speed after a few minutes, depending on supply Voltage). The rotor can not turn faster than about 400 rpm, then it jumps out of its bearings (the top magnet above the axle can not hold the axle straight up any more).
F) I attached a document about the operating principle of a Reed switch which taught me a lot. It shows the areas around the Reed switch are influenced by a magnet (at different magnet approaches).
Greetings, Conrad
Quote from: Farmhand on June 07, 2013, 07:38:49 PM
I would like to give my 2 cents on this point, it is one of the things I showed in the tests I did with my motor, when the coils are snubbed by a diode in parallel the current stops immediately as I showed,
I think its balony. Your 2 cents is worth just that. 2 cents. ;) It can be seen in a circuit, in a sim, and in documents. :P
From the pdf uploaded below...
"A slowly decaying magnetic flux (the slowest is experienced with a simplediode shunt across the coil)"
By using the diode across the coil, the magnetic field of the coil is maintained the longest. As you add loads in between or in line with the coil and diode, the magnetic field decreases much faster.
This is about making motors. If by using the diode across the coil the magnetic field is maintained longer than with just the on time of the switch, this is where we can reduce the on time of the switch and still get the same amount of push on the rotor using less input.
And thats the truth. :P
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on June 08, 2013, 04:16:36 PM
I think its balony. Your 2 cents is worth just that. 2 cents. ;) It can be seen in a circuit, in a sim, and in documents. :P
From the pdf uploaded below...
"A slowly decaying magnetic flux (the slowest is experienced with a simplediode shunt across the coil)"
By using the diode across the coil, the magnetic field of the coil is maintained the longest. As you add loads in between or in line with the coil and diode, the magnetic field decreases much faster.
This is about making motors. If by using the diode across the coil the magnetic field is maintained longer than with just the on time of the switch, this is where we can reduce the on time of the switch and still get the same amount of push on the rotor using less input.
And thats the truth. :P
Mags
If that's your opinion Mags then that is your opinion. I'm not going to ignore the results I see with my own eyes from controlled experiments. I take it you don't believe the scope shots. It's a shame. But so be it. I don't require your belief or approval. I say what I see. And I provided the scope shots. As i said I urge people to do the tests and show the results as I did. And be prepared to show it on video as I am. I have no issue with it because i know I can do again anytime.
You are entitled to your opinion. And your right to give it. But I think you are wrong that's my opinion. I see no pint to arguing until there is other tests done by able people with
no bias and prepared to show the results.
If you remember I did not think I would get the result I got either but I did, and I double and tripple checked, the result is posted above. If people don't take me seriously then I'll stop being serious. And play games. I prefer to remain serious about the truth. But if there is no point why bother.
Cheers
P.S. No problem Gyula, I just don't understand why all this has not already been put to rest. The more experiments I do and the more I learn the more I see people say things that don't agree with my experimental results.
2nD P.S. Mags, actually I'm withdrawing my offer of showing it on video. Take it or leave it, I care not which.
Since my 2 cents is only worth 2 cents, I'll give my 20 cents worth or 2 bobs worth as we say here. In my opinion Laser Sabre isn't too interested in telling or showing too much I think his main focus it to show things that cause hype and not much else.
Why not just ask him if it is OU and/or does he think it can be OU ? I did once about all of devices and he said no none were OU. Seems easy enough, just ask him.
..
Quote from: Farmhand on June 08, 2013, 05:07:26 PM
If that's your opinion Mags then that is your opinion. I'm not going to ignore the results I see with my own eyes from controlled experiments. I take it you don't believe the scope shots. It's a shame. But so be it. I don't require your belief or approval. I say what I see. And I provided the scope shots. As i said I urge people to do the tests and show the results as I did. And be prepared to show it on video as I am. I have no issue with it because i know I can do again anytime.
You are entitled to your opinion. And your right to give it. But I think you are wrong that's my opinion. I see no pint to arguing until there is other tests done by able people with
no bias and prepared to show the results.
If you remember I did not think I would get the result I got either but I did, and I double and tripple checked, the result is posted above. If people don't take me seriously then I'll stop being serious. And play games. I prefer to remain serious about the truth. But if there is no point why bother.
Cheers
P.S. No problem Gyula, I just don't understand why all this has not already been put to rest. The more experiments I do and the more I learn the more I see people say things that don't agree with my experimental results.
2nD P.S. Mags, actually I'm withdrawing my offer of showing it on video. Take it or leave it, I care not which.
Since my 2 cents is only worth 2 cents, I'll give my 20 cents worth or 2 bobs worth as we say here. In my opinion Laser Sabre isn't too interested in telling or showing too much I think his main focus it to show things that cause hype and not much else.
Why not just ask him if it is OU and/or does he think it can be OU ? I did once about all of devices and he said no none were OU. Seems easy enough, just ask him.
..
"2nD P.S. Mags, actually I'm withdrawing my offer of showing it on video. Take it or leave it, I care not which." ::)
"If that's your opinion Mags then that is your opinion."
No those are my facts. Tyco is a HUGE company. How about you call them and tell them that it is only their opinion. :o ;)
And here is a circuit below that can make the magnetic field last even longer using an SPDT reed switch. When the input is switched off, the diode takes over till the reed is switched to the Normally Closed NC position cutting the diode out of the snub loop.
Mags
Quote from: Farmhand on May 25, 2013, 06:30:57 PM
What is the motor supposed to do ? It looks like it does nothing. And LaserSabre is a practical joker, even though I don't see the point to it, the way I see it it could be a joke, I don't take his stuff seriously because all he wants to do is impress people with implied OU that is nothing more than micro power devices. I don't see the point to the thing. Anyone who sets out with the objective of making something spin for no reason is a bit off the mark in my opinion.
I asked him if any of his devices produced excess energy and he said no, none did.
My question is what is the point to the device and what can it do that is practical ?
I don't see how it has anything to do with Tesla. He should also say what it is that makes it have anything to do with Tesla.
Maybe it is a demonstration of what a 3D printer can do, in that regard is isn't all that impressive.
In my opinion this is exactly what is wrong with the free energy movement, generally speaking.
The device is pointless. It will stop. It proves nothing.
Cheers
Here we have Farmhands 'first' post in this thread. Cutting down what Laser has shown at a point where nobody really knows nothing much about it yet. Thats an 'opinion' completely depleted of substance if I ever saw one. Whats the beef? Are you worried it may take away attention from your motor thread? Whats so special about yours?
Then you say in your latest post....
"In my opinion Laser Sabre isn't too interested in telling or showing too much I think his main focus it to show things that cause hype and not much else."
Well you just keep on working on 'your' project in your thread(of which you seem to have a strange way of keeping fellowship, if one reads it they will understand) then and stop posting continuous negativity toward others and their ideas.
Mags
Quote from: Farmhand on June 08, 2013, 05:07:26 PM
Why not just ask him if it is OU and/or does he think it can be OU ? I did once about all of devices and he said no none were OU. Seems easy enough, just ask him.
..
The only one here in this thread talking about OU is you. ;) Were talking about efficiency near its best. Lets see you run your motor for any period of time from a dead stop with a 10uf cap. Charge the cap to what ever voltage you wish. Lets see it. :o
Mags
Quote from: conradelektro on June 07, 2013, 01:45:38 PM
I did some scope shots over a 10 Ohm shunt to calculate average power draw of my little pulse motor at 1 Volt supply Voltage (no diode, just the shunt, see circuit diagram in attached drawing). And a scope shot over the Reed switch to show its ON-time (between 20% and 30%, depending on Reed switch position and turning speed of the rotor). I have chosen a 1 Volt supply Voltage to make the rotor turn relatively slowly.
My Multimeter measurement of about 500 µA was confirmed.
Why does my pulse motor draw about 100 times more power than Lasersaber's six coil motor?
Is it the impedance of the coils?
Is it the mechanical set up (specially the crudeness of the build)?
It can not be the ON-time of the Reed switch, because it could not be made 100 times shorter!
Comments appreciated.
Remark: The rotor can not turn faster than a few 100 rpm because it is badly balanced. With a supply Voltage of about 6 Volt it jumps out of its bearing (terminal speed reached).
For further details and a photo see this post http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg362615/#msg362615 (http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg362615/#msg362615)
Greetings, Conrad
conradelektro,
I believe the reason why (your motor requires more power) is the amount of energy needed to overcome the inertia. Your rotor with the magnets is larger in diameter, weighs more, etc. It's a matter of greater mass and weight, I would think would be the reason why your motor requires greater energy to turn vs LaserSaber's motor.
What if you were to make your rotor out of Balsa Wood structure capturing the magnets, held in place with super glue? And the diameter was the same as LaserSaber's? (Note: Cut out as much material from the rotor as possible without weakening it to make the rotor as light as possible)
To run an equivalent energy efficient device you'll need to match or improve on it's ability, no?
You have a cool motor and so does LaserSaber, I'm just inputting an observation from the peanut gallery because you asked for comments.
My sincere apologies for butting in on the discussions.
Quote@Lasersaber: what is the DC resistance of your coil (or all six coils in series) in your six coil motor?
Sorry for the delay. The coils seem to very between 1.6 to 1.7K. The resistance on the six coiler is 9.9K.
Quote from: lasersaber on June 08, 2013, 09:19:36 PM
Sorry for the delay. The coils seem to very between 1.6 to 1.7K. The resistance on the six coiler is 9.9K.
Thats incredible. Who woulda thunk it? :o ;D So the 12 coil is near 20kohm lol.
I have to hand it to ya Laser. Nice work. Can you inspire us a bit on what made you go this route? Thanks
Mags
Mags
And what else is truly amazing is how quickly the caps charge through all that winding. :o
How does that much charge happen at such low currents? Let alone motor action. There has to be some reason that I just dont understand.
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on June 08, 2013, 09:45:18 PM
And what else is truly amazing is how quickly the caps charge through all that winding. :o
How does that much charge happen at such low currents? Let alone motor action. There has to be some reason that I just dont understand.
Mags
Mags:
Might it be possible that all of that very fine wire is acting as an antenna of some sort? Possibly capturing a little bit of all of that broadcast energy floating around out there? It would not take much to help to charge that small cap.
I am not saying laser is doing anything untoward here, just positing a possible explanation of where some "extra" energy might be coming from. Just a little might go a long way with his well designed rotor.
Bill
Hey Bill
Well, nobody is saying OU yet. Considering the total ohms of the coils, one can calculate the current flow through the coils if they were only depicted by resistance alone. Then we have most likely huge air core inductances in series. Im gunna have to build it. This needs to be looked at with a scope for sure. Were looking at things in the very very low micro amps here. No need to assume any extra energy, just very little use of it. As I said in an earlier post, I have a an idea that there is more efficiency in numbers of coils and magnets as compared to 1 driver coil on a rotor. If it is correct, then what would happen with 24 coils, 48 coils? And just all in series as shown. 48 coils would be 80kohm. But from what Im seeing, 48coils would do better. Then 96 coils, more mags also as we increase the number of coils. It doesnt even have to be a larger rotor, just stacks possibly.
Lol how much less can the current use get if 24 coils were used? Or 48? And still have motor action? It will be nano scale. That rotor output needs to be measured somehow. If at 24 or 48 coils it can still work against the drag of the straw, this will need some serious looking at. ;)
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on June 08, 2013, 10:59:08 PM
snip....
I have a an idea that there is more efficiency in numbers of coils and magnets as compared to 1 driver coil on a rotor.
snip....
Let's assume you have one (air core) coil with a DC resistance of 8 ohms.
Instead of putting 2 times 8 ohms in series, which will obviously half the maximum current consumed for the same supply voltage, due to the doubling of resistance to 16 ohms, try putting 2 times 4 ohms in series.
In this way the total dc resistance of the drive circuit is the same, and theoretically, so is the inductance.
With 2 less variables changed, in the context of trying to compare whether 2 (or more) drive coils are inherently better than one, such a test is more akin to "comparing apples with apples", so to speak.
Cheers
Quote from: Magluvin on June 08, 2013, 10:59:08 PM
Hey Bill
Well, nobody is saying OU yet. Considering the total ohms of the coils, one can calculate the current flow through the coils if they were only depicted by resistance alone. Then we have most likely huge air core inductances in series. Im gunna have to build it. This needs to be looked at with a scope for sure. Were looking at things in the very very low micro amps here. No need to assume any extra energy, just very little use of it. As I said in an earlier post, I have a an idea that there is more efficiency in numbers of coils and magnets as compared to 1 driver coil on a rotor. If it is correct, then what would happen with 24 coils, 48 coils? And just all in series as shown. 48 coils would be 80kohm. But from what Im seeing, 48coils would do better. Then 96 coils, more mags also as we increase the number of coils. It doesnt even have to be a larger rotor, just stacks possibly.
Lol how much less can the current use get if 24 coils were used? Or 48? And still have motor action? It will be nano scale. That rotor output needs to be measured somehow. If at 24 or 48 coils it can still work against the drag of the straw, this will need some serious looking at. ;)
Mags
Mags:
OK, I did not mean OU at all. Poor choice of words on my part...instead of "extra energy" I should have said "additional energy". I simply meant that possibly radio waves were adding to the efficiency of the rotor is all. As I said, it would not take much to aid in keeping that cap a little juiced.
Anyway, it was just a thought. Most likely it has nothing to do with it. All those coils with that fine wire just reminded me of a crystal radio antenna is all.
We will see. Good luck with your replication. I wish I could make a nice 3D printer. Those things are the machines of the future I believe.
Bill
Quote from: hoptoad on June 08, 2013, 11:47:09 PM
Let's assume you have one (air core) coil with a DC resistance of 8 ohms.
Instead of putting 2 times 8 ohms in series, which will obviously half the maximum current consumed for the same supply voltage, due to the doubling of resistance to 16 ohms, try putting 2 times 4 ohms in series.
In this way the total dc resistance of the drive circuit is the same, and theoretically, so is the inductance.
With 2 less variables changed, in the context of trying to compare whether 2 (or more) drive coils are inherently better than one, such a test is more akin to "comparing apples with apples", so to speak.
Cheers
Your right. no need to just have high ohms to experience the gain. The Bose 901 speakers were 9 small speakers 1ohm each in series. If I remember they were 4in drivers. But it sounded like a lot more than what you see. ;)
The comparison would be simpler to just check the rotor rpms with one coil compared to 2 coils in series with the same input. Im setting up the experiment right now using 2 coils. Will see what happens. ;) They are not 1.7kohm coils. lol But like I said, it should work either way.. My electric bike hub motor uses 52 coils and 52 neos bout 1/8x1/2x1 and puts out near 1 hp. I cannot even think of that much mechanical power coming from a single coil motor. ;) The huge coils and large magnets to do so would not be convenient nor sightly. :o ;) My bike motor is not an exact configuration but just an example. It has side by side magnets and EZ doesnt. Would like to see EZ with 12 mags filling in the spaces between the existing ones. If it is a reed switch timing issue a small bias magnet can be used on the outer end of the reed so that it only fires on the N mags. Works very well and can help fine tune the timing. Reeds are strange buggers. Here is a vid I did long time ago where using just a small drill bit I could reverse my rotor, which was a diametric neo mag. Start at 1:00 to 1:20 and then to 2:30 into the vid to get right to it. ;) Or you can watch the whole thing. Its old.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYgs7dvyZqc
One really must think about what running that motor on 1ua really means. Look at it. Watch it. See what he does with it. An LED is typically 20ma. This is 1ua. And just imagine taking it steps further. ;)
Mags
Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 09, 2013, 12:27:49 AM
Mags:
OK, I did not mean OU at all. Poor choice of words on my part...instead of "extra energy" I should have said "additional energy". I simply meant that possibly radio waves were adding to the efficiency of the rotor is all. As I said, it would not take much to aid in keeping that cap a little juiced.
Anyway, it was just a thought. Most likely it has nothing to do with it. All those coils with that fine wire just reminded me of a crystal radio antenna is all.
We will see. Good luck with your replication. I wish I could make a nice 3D printer. Those things are the machines of the future I believe.
Bill
Hey Bill
I think its a matter of more coils. Even though in series as the energy use decreases compared to 1 coil, the spread of all those little energies over the span of the rotors edge can account for more rotor motion than if that same total input energy was just focused on 1 coil alone acting on 1 magnet alone. Makes sense and we will find out if thats the case shortly. Im doing a comparison of 2 series coils vs 1 coil. From my speaker analogy, the 2 in series should make the rotor go faster than the 1 coil while the 2 use half the input of the 1. And if thats the case, then 4 coils using 1/4 the input of one should produce even more speed that 1 or 2 coils. Will be weird if it is so. How far can we go with that. :o
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on June 09, 2013, 12:40:05 AM
An LED is typically 20ma. This is 1ua. And just imagine taking it steps further. ;)
Mags
I did some tests a while back. I used 'glow powder' which can be used in paint to see if it would power a solar cell after being lit from UV leds. The glow powder if hit with light for 2 min will stay lit over a period of 8 to 15 hours. From my tests, this would power that motor with more than 1ua at the voltages it can run at. Ill have to see if I still have that stuff. My goal was to light the powder on the surface of the cell and then let the cell charge a super cap or battery enough to run the 2 min light cycle again. I wasnt into the JT at the time and that may have made a difference. Will have to see if the glow powders have been improved since.
Mags
Mags:
Have you seen this stuff?
http://www.batterystation.com/curtisium.htm (http://www.batterystation.com/curtisium.htm)
Cutisium. I bought some of these tiles a few years ago and, to me, it is the state of the art in glow technology. Stick a few tiles in the sun for a minute, and they glow very brightly for 12-20 hours. Incredible! I can charge them with the light from a cfl, or LED light and they glow so brightly and for such a long time, it is amazing. One day, I will build a house that has a wall of these that gets sun exposure during the day, and lights the room at night.
Bill
Quote from: Billxx on June 08, 2013, 08:30:19 PM
conradelektro,
I believe the reason why (your motor requires more power) is the amount of energy needed to overcome the inertia. Your rotor with the magnets is larger in diameter, weighs more, etc. It's a matter of greater mass and weight, I would think would be the reason why your motor requires greater energy to turn vs LaserSaber's motor.
What if you were to make your rotor out of Balsa Wood structure capturing the magnets, held in place with super glue? And the diameter was the same as LaserSaber's? (Note: Cut out as much material from the rotor as possible without weakening it to make the rotor as light as possible)
To run an equivalent energy efficient device you'll need to match or improve on it's ability, no?
@Billxx: I like if someone speaks up, only the exchange of opinions allows us to learn. I was thinking along this line as well (inertia, mechanical problems, wrong dimensions,..) but now I believe:
If a magnet of the rotor is near the Reed switch current flows. And this current is mainly determined by the DC resistance of the coils as long as we have very low frequency (like one rotor turn per second). So, measuring this current (when a magnet is in front the Reed switch) gives us an upper limit of the power draw of the motor.
For my motor this upper limit at 1 V supply Voltage is 1/540 = 1.8 mA (6 coils in series with 90 Ohm DC resistance each).
When the motor turns the Reed switch ON-time is about 20%, so, 1.8/5 = 360 µA. In fact I am measuring about 500 µA because the ON-time is may be a bit more than 20%, more towards 25% (results in 450 µA average power draw).
My motor turns with about 150 rpm with 1 V and 500µA, so all mechanical and wrong dimension problems are overcome with this power draw. By introducing a resistor into the circuit, e.g. a 5.6 K resistor I could bring the average power draw down to about 50 µA, but then the motor hardly turns (about 30 rpm and every disturbance stops it). So, the mechanical problems can be overcome with 1 V and 50 µA.
The reverse current of 10 1N60 germanium diodes (about 20 µA at 1 Volt) were not enough to make my motor turn. So, I would say that my motor needs at least 1 Volt and 50µA to turn, but I can not bring its power demand below 1 V 500µ A without introduction of further resistance into the circuit.
Quote from: lasersaber on June 08, 2013, 09:19:36 PM
Sorry for the delay. The coils seem to very between 1.6 to 1.7K. The resistance on the six coiler is 9.9K.
No lets do the upper limit calculation for Lasersaber's motor with 6 coils in series 9.9 K DC resistance at 1 Volt supply Voltage:
1/9900 = about 100 µA
with about 20% Reed switch ON-time we get about 20 µA average current.
My motor runs nicely with 500 µA and very slowly with 40 µA, so, therefore it is plausible that Lasersaber's very well and precisely built motor runs fast with 20µA and rather slowly with 1 µA average power draw.
I would say the explanation of the low power draw of Lasersaber's motor lies in the 9.9 K DC resistance of his coils, and then once we have this low power draw the mechanical advantages come into play as well.What I want to say:
First one needs that very high DC resistance (impedance) of the coils and then a good mechanical build.Let's say I get such 1. 6K to 1.7 K DC resistance coils and put them into my motor. It could happen that it will not turn (because of the bad build), but its power draw (after pushing it along by blowing a bit of air over it) will be as low as in Lasersaber's motor.
And I will build a motor with 1.6 K DC resistance coils from relays which I already found:
http://www.conrad.at/ce/de/product/503091/Serie-36-DC-Printrelais-Finder-361190244001-24-VDC-1-Wechsler-10-A-30-VDC250-VAC-AC1-2500-VA (http://www.conrad.at/ce/de/product/503091/Serie-36-DC-Printrelais-Finder-361190244001-24-VDC-1-Wechsler-10-A-30-VDC250-VAC-AC1-2500-VA) (R-Spule = 1600 Ohm, R-Spule = DC resistance)
http://www.conrad.at/ce/de/product/503614/Miniatur-Print-Relais-AZ943-15-A-Zettler-Electronics-AZ943-1CH-24DE-24-VDC-1-Wechsler-Max-15-A-Max-30-VDC300-VAC (http://www.conrad.at/ce/de/product/503614/Miniatur-Print-Relais-AZ943-15-A-Zettler-Electronics-AZ943-1CH-24DE-24-VDC-1-Wechsler-Max-15-A-Max-30-VDC300-VAC)
It may be will not turn (because of mechanical problems) but it will have a similar low power draw.
But of course I hope it will turn at least slowly.
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad,
Thanks again for doing the tests across the reed with the scope on it I still digesting your conclusions from it, pondering on how the diode reverse resistance plays its role.
On your latest post: I assume those 1.6 kOhm relays from Conrad include a ferromagnetic core, can you remove them easily or no problem with them.
Yes, the some uA current draw can only be explained by the huge impedance of Lasersaber coils (besides the big DC resistance the residual inductance must be in the some 10 times Henry range) and the small mass of the rotor.
Thanks, Gyula
I did some scope shots over the diode in order to show what happens while charging the cap. No battery in the system, the cap was first discharged and the charge up to the given Voltage by blowing an air jet over the rotor rim area.
One sees that the charging happens when the Reed switch is on (positive bump is cut of because the current runs into the cap) and the again with the BEMF spike. The positive bump of the AC current generated in the coils is cut off at the momentary cap Voltage.
Greetings, Conrad
Quote from: gyulasun on June 09, 2013, 06:24:14 AM
Hi Conrad,
Thanks again for doing the tests across the reed with the scope on it I still digesting your conclusions from it, pondering on how the diode reverse resistance plays its role.
On your latest post: I assume those 1.6 kOhm relays from Conrad include a ferromagnetic core, can you remove them easily or no problem with them.
Yes, the some uA current draw can only be explained by the huge impedance of Lasersaber coils (besides the big DC resistance the residual inductance must be in the some 10 times Henry range) and the small mass of the rotor.
Thanks, Gyula
@Gyula: I hope that the scope shots over the diode will enlighten you. Feel free to indicate further scope measurements, I want to understand this motor fully. But I am not very skilled at electronics, so any help and any ideas are appreciated.
I have to first order the relays. Then I can dismantle them and look at their design. I hope that I can remove everything from the coils including the core. It was possible with the two types of relays I use so far (I called them "black coils" 280 Ohm and "white coils" 90 Ohm DC resistance). I still have the cores from the "black and white coils" and could reinsert them if needed. The motor in my old YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEEjlYvZ5OM) has the "black coils" with the cores still in place. Also my "ring magnet spinner" features the "black coils" with cores, see e.g. http://www.overunity.com/11350/confirming-the-delayed-lenz-effect/msg359314/#msg359314
I will order the two relay types indicated, 10 each, the loss will not be overly high in case of problems. I can break four and still have six.
Greetings, Conrad
@conradelektro
I would like to remind you and everyone else that if you use a diode, don't expect to find the best one on your first try. This applies to germanium diodes as well when they are specifically required.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj0ShZV6bhY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj0ShZV6bhY)
I know I seem to repeat myself but you really are not aware of how much difference one diode will make compared to another of the same range or rating. This applies to solid state or motor driven, does not matter. You still need to hunt for the right diode. They are like women, each one as finicky as the next and only one will really do for a given job. Or better said, you need a Harem of diodes to run a good work bench. hahaha
Try and find as many diode models as you can. If you only have one or two it is not enough to hunt for the right diode.
The other point is this. Using the reed at the negative side of the coils is OK, but again, experimenting means trying all options, like on the positive side or even between coils 3-4 or other mix. The point is that when you pulse on the negative, the positive will already be in the coils and the change inside the coil may be minimal. If you pulse on the positive side, the negative will already be in the coils and now the positive has to "move" (hate that word) into the coils thus creating more change and possibly charging your cap to a higher energy state.
It is good now that you are testing without a feed source.
The other point is @lasersabers coils alternate NS. Are yours? If not maybe switch the wire directions on each second coil.
Ideally, given that your 6 coils are spread apart rather generously, you may consider adding more magnets to your rotor. 12 magnets would be very generous but maybe just add 1 or 2 more magnets creating an off timing effect that your spread coils may enjoy more then a sparsely timed impulse.
@lasersaber
Can you measure the inductance of one of your coils.
Also, I am leaving you a post on your web site.
http://laserhacker.com/forum/index.php?topic=155.msg1662#msg1662 (http://laserhacker.com/forum/index.php?topic=155.msg1662#msg1662)
wattsup
Added: A great web site for reeds......
Nice 3-way reeds here........
http://www.meder.com/spdt-switches6.html
Check their Section entitled Reed Switch Resources.
Quote from: wattsup on June 09, 2013, 10:31:38 AM
A) I would like to remind you and everyone else that if you use a diode, don't expect to find the best one on your first try. This applies to germanium diodes as well when they are specifically required.
B) The other point is this. Using the reed at the negative side of the coils is OK, but again, experimenting means trying all options, like on the positive side or even between coils 3-4 or other mix. The point is that when you pulse on the negative, the positive will already be in the coils and the change inside the coil may be minimal. If you pulse on the positive side, the negative will already be in the coils and now the positive has to "move" (hate that word) into the coils thus creating more change and possibly charging your cap to a higher energy state.
It is good now that you are testing without a feed source.
C) The other point is @lasersabers coils alternate NS. Are yours? If not maybe switch the wire directions on each second coil.
D) Ideally, given that your 6 coils are spread apart rather generously, you may consider adding more magnets to your rotor. 12 magnets would be very generous but maybe just add 1 or 2 more magnets creating an off timing effect that your spread coils may enjoy more then a sparsely timed impulse.
wattsup
E) Added: A great web site for reeds......
Nice 3-way reeds here........
http://www.meder.com/spdt-switches6.html (http://www.meder.com/spdt-switches6.html)
Check their Section entitled Reed Switch Resources.
Ad A) I saw that with my ten 1N60 germanium diodes and will check my other diodes. Important hint, thank you. Diodes for higher Amperage should have a higher reverse current. With the high impedance coils (generating a higher AC Voltage at rather low rotor turn rates) a forward Voltage of 1 Volt should not matter. To reach a 100 Volt charge in the cap like Lasersaber requires may be 1000 to 2000 rotor rpm, but 20 Volt should be possible with a few hundred rotor rpm.
Ad B) I also tried the circuit as Lasersaber describes it (pulsing positive side of the coil chain) but could not see any beneficial effect. But the effect might be smaller than my measuring precision.
Ad C) As I understand Lasersaber's videos, his 6 coil Version has all six coils in the same direction (like my replication). But his 12 coil version has them in alternating directions, and on his new 12 coil version (conical coils) he can easily change coils in order to try many combination.
Ad D) In my next version I want to have at least two different rotors and coils that can be replaced easily to try out many possibilities (different number of magnets on different rotors and different coils). If you have not yet started to build your version take that into consideration.
Ad E) I have Reed switches from Meder. Look at Lasersaber's video for optimal placement of the Reed switch, I can confirm his placement. My original placement (vertically) was also o.k. but less reliable. My early concern with Reed switch ON-time does not seem to be very important after all.
I just saw that the black relays I have chosen also come in 3600 Ohm DC resistance and even 6400 Ohm DC resistance versions (see the attached PDF files). The white relays come also in a 6400 Ohm DC resistance version (look farther down in the documents, there is a table for different versions). But the 1600 Ohm DC resistance versions should be the best ones (taking Lasersaber's build experience into consideration).
So, if you are looking for relays to take coils from them, look for 24 V relays (nominal Voltage of coil should be 24 VDC), the coil should then have a DC resistance of around 1600 Ohm.
May be one can build a 12 coil motor with 6 coils having 3600 Ohm as drive coils and 6 coils having 1600 Ohm as generator coils. But that would be much too simplistic.
Remark:
I do not want to criticise Lasersaber's way of presenting his builds, but the crucial information is the DC resistance of his coils and much mystery would have been clarified if he had given this information (which is very easy to measure) in his first video. My replication was at a loss from the beginning (with the 90 Ohm DC resistance coils). But building it helps me and others to build a new better version. So, well, everybody should do what he thinks is best. I could have waited a bit with my replication.
Lasersaber's 3D-printed motors are a very nice idea and a great implementation, so I am grateful that he shows details at all. Just with the cap, speeding up the rotor by blowing an air jet over it till the cap charges to 10 Volt or even 100V and then having it run many minutes on this charge is a nice touch. A true novelty item. I am not very optimistic that this leads to OU. But I rather try to achieve OU with µA instaed of with 1000 A. At least one can fool oneself and others more easily with µA.
Greetings, Conrad
Quote from: Magluvin on June 09, 2013, 12:40:05 AM
If it is a reed switch timing issue a small bias magnet can be used on the outer end of the reed so that it only fires on the N mags. Works very well and can help fine tune the timing. Reeds are strange buggers. Here is a vid I did long time ago where using just a small drill bit I could reverse my rotor, which was a diametric neo mag. Start at 1:00 to 1:20 and then to 2:30 into the vid to get right to it. ;) Or you can watch the whole thing. Its old.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYgs7dvyZqc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYgs7dvyZqc)
One really must think about what running that motor on 1ua really means. Look at it. Watch it. See what he does with it. An LED is typically 20ma. This is 1ua. And just imagine taking it steps further. ;)
Mags
@Mags: I just looked at your video that also shows the drill bit as a Reed switch shield. Great stuff, goes into my collection of good ideas in connection with Reed switches. I am also amazed about how far your Reed switch is away from the turning magnet in this video.
Greetings, Conrad
Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 08, 2013, 10:13:49 PM
Might it be possible that all of that very fine wire is acting as an antenna of some sort? Possibly capturing a little bit of all of that broadcast energy floating around out there? It would not take much to help to charge that small cap.
I am not saying laser is doing anything untoward here, just positing a possible explanation of where some "extra" energy might be coming from. Just a little might go a long way with his well designed rotor.
Bill
I could get some µA when placing a 10 meter long antenna near an electric 220V appliance which was on (refrigerator, heating element, coffee machine). It looks like one can drive Lasersaber's motors with that (after rectifying the small AC current). But one also needs an earth connection.
A Joule thief with a bigger air coil placed under the table could also run Lasersaber's motors via an induction loop (and rectifier). But we do not want to cheat, don't we?
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad,
Basically I agree with your conclusions in your Reply #144 and Reply#162 on the operation of this setup. Regarding Lasersaber's remark in his Reply #136 (no need for a diode under 5V) I wonder if there is any need for a diode above 5V either because I think the role of the diode is played by the reed switch (a controlled switch can act as a rectifier). I say this because when the reed is ON, the induced voltage in the coils can charge the cap whenever its polarity is correct and its instanteneous amplitude is higher than that of the capacitor. And when the reed is OFF then I cannot see what or where is the load which can discharge the capacitor, perhaps the 1 picoFarad (or less) self capacitance of the open reed switch can close the circuit at the AC frequency the rotor just runs at (definitely with MegaOhm series impedance) but not DC-wise, right?
Perhaps you could run the same test you showed in your Reply #144, third scope shot, when there was no battery but you used the diode: now in the same setup if you remove the diode or just bypass it with a wire-short and see the voltage across the reed switch, using approximately the same rotor speed. (I guess you will find more or less a similar waveform like the one across the reed in your second picture (Scope 10 Ohm Reed.png) of your reply #139 where you used no diode but you used 1V from power supply to drive the motor.)
Apart from the diode's role, I believe the basic operation is revealed by your excellent tests, at least with respect to the schematic WE believe AS is assembled by Lasersaber, because he has not given full disclosure on his actual setup. (Not that he should give, of course, and what he shared so far is certainly commendable, albeit I agree he ought to mention coil details much earlier.)
Thanks, Gyula
Conrad, would the moment of inertia of your rotor be more than Lasersabers ? I think is the question, if a spinning rotor has more energy than another at the same speed it would make sense that it would require more energy to get it up to speed and keep it there, keep it spinning. MileHigh and Tinsel Koala supplied all info needed to get the MoI of your rotor.
These pages are a great help if you want to find it..
Kinetic Energy of a flywheel
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/flywheel-energy-d_945.html
Moment of Inertia
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/moment-inertia-torque-d_913.html
Oh I meant to say that an Earth battery would run LaserSabers motor for free a few times over I think.
I have two dissimilar stakes driven in the ground about 0.5 meter and 2 meters apart one is copper tube the other is a galvanized steel picket. They would last for years, and is scrap metal.
I get at times up to 900 mV with some short circuit current which I don't have equipment to measure properly and don't remember the measurement I got last time but I could try to check, I'll need to find a better meter, I might use the uA meter I have set up as a field strength indicator, I'll just need to disassemble it, i'll try with a multimeter first if I can find a suitable one.
Cheers
Conrad:
QuoteBut I rather try to achieve OU with µA instaed of with 1000 A. At least one can fool oneself and others more easily with µA.
The
purpose of the scientific method -- based on experiments with thorough measurements -- is IMO precisely to avoid "fooling oneself".
And
a self-runner, for example, keeping a cap charged while driving a load (however small) is a clear indication of tapping previously-untapped energy.
(I prefer not to use the term "overunity" "OU" as this conjures up notions of violating laws of physics; when it is more likely getting energy from a real but previously untapped source of energy.)
Thanks for your research efforts and experiments -- and thanks to Lasersaber for another interesting project.
PS -- recent motor by Lidmotor uses the DadHav 2-transistor circuit.
http://youtu.be/XHGQZucIMl8 (http://youtu.be/XHGQZucIMl8)
Also, on my electronics bench: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeACDx6Ne1w&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeACDx6Ne1w&feature=youtu.be)
This little "Slider motor" will run just fine at 0.65V @ 38uA, so about 25uW.
Quote from: JouleSeeker on June 10, 2013, 10:50:55 AM
Also, on my electronics bench: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeACDx6Ne1w&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeACDx6Ne1w&feature=youtu.be)
This little "Slider motor" will run just fine at 0.65V @ 38uA, so about 25uW.
JouleSeeker: My remark "fooling oneself or others" was an attempt at sarcasm, because since ten years I only see OU contraptions which are a delusion or a deception. I try to not fool myself and others, but one never knows what the future brings (again sarcasm).
Do you know how the "dancing-flower circuit" works? If there are four wires leading from the flat coil to the circuit, a trigger coil might be in use?
In the video only one coil drives the rotor, which is interesting. I am not convinced that more coils are necessarily better than fewer coils (with a higher DC resistance).
Once I have tried the coils from the relays which I have found ( http://www.conrad.at/ce/de/product/503614/Miniatur-Print-Relais-AZ943-15-A-Zettler-Electronics-AZ943-1CH-24DE-24-VDC-1-Wechsler-Max-15-A-Max-30-VDC300-VAC (http://www.conrad.at/ce/de/product/503614/Miniatur-Print-Relais-AZ943-15-A-Zettler-Electronics-AZ943-1CH-24DE-24-VDC-1-Wechsler-Max-15-A-Max-30-VDC300-VAC), 1600 Ohm DC resistance) I also want to try just two coils with 6400 Ohm DC resistance. One coil at 180° and the other at 360°, and may be 12 magnets on the rotor. Just one coil hurts my wish for symmetry (but I might be wrong).
I am also thinking about using bigger magnets (stronger magnets), because the weight of the rotor is not so important once it has started to turn. A heavier rotor might need a little push to overcome inertia and take longer to accelerate, but the needle bearing can carry a heavier load without developing much more friction.
I like the idea of a longer axle (as in the video) because the top magnet can hold it straight up easier (longer lever). Needles are easy to find and are very strong, but I have never seen very long sewing needles.
I also looked for sapphire vee bearings and it seems the only easy way to get them is from Amazon in the US (as Lasersaber indicates in his forum)? They come from China or India, but I could not find a source in Europe. I was thinking about destroying one of my older mechanical watches or better alarm clocks to salvage the jewel bearings, but this are "hole bearings" not the vee type.
Greetings, Conrad
P.S.: I found very long sewing needles
http://www.ebay.at/itm/Polsternadel-Stoffnadel-Nahnadel-Ledernadel-Segelnadel-Sattlernadel-Nadel-K-5-/200715941868?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item2ebb9a37ec (http://www.ebay.at/itm/Polsternadel-Stoffnadel-Nahnadel-Ledernadel-Segelnadel-Sattlernadel-Nadel-K-5-/200715941868?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item2ebb9a37ec)
Quote from: conradelektro on June 10, 2013, 01:13:04 PM
....
Do you know how the "dancing-flower circuit" works? If there are four wires leading from the flat coil to the circuit, a trigger coil might be in use?
In the video only one coil drives the rotor, which is interesting. I am not convinced that more coils are necessarily better than fewer coils (with a higher DC resistance).
....
Greetings, Conrad ....
Greetings, Conrad - yes, sewing needles work great as bearing AND as the axle (as in my little vid, above)
Re: function of the "dancing flower", just 2 wires to the coil. Slider wrote to me (and said its no secret):
QuoteIn a dancing flower, the coil sits on a base and is glued to it. To remove the coil, it's safest and easiest to bend the plastics down either side of it with pliers, such that the glue breaks and the coil can be lifted away. The 'petals' are on a hinge, with a dangling piece of plastic that has some weight and a small neo mounted inside. The neo is pushed each time the coil fires and produces a pendulum type swing to and fro.
All i've done, is to convert each firing to 360 degree rotation, by having the 4 magnets on the rotor.
2 magnets on opposites sides work, but it doesn't always self start.
Using a DC PS, I found that the speed of the rotor depends on the VOLTAGE; for example, at 0.65 V (close to the minimum for it to run), the rotor likes to spin at about 98 RPM. Faster with higher voltage - but don't go too high or you'll burn out the circuit.
Also, the motor (and the nearby driven-rotor) will spin at integer-multiples of the fundamental, as one might expect - depending on how fast you spin the rotor to get it started. If you let the motor self-start, it chooses the lowest omega = angular velocity.
Next I'm going to the DadHav circuit/motor -- and I think the Lasersaber motor is very intriguing also!
Hi folks, thought of another type of use for long high ohm coils.
For example, a three stage motor coil setup could be used.
Where we have one main coil set used to power a motor, then a second set of coils with same mass, higher ohms, can be powered from a capacitor, using the flyback from the main drive coils.
Then a third set of coils with same mass, even higher ohm coils, can be powered from a capacitor, using the flyback from the second set of coils.
Capacitors would be sized at proper voltage and capacity, to give additional coil stages good pulse strength and the capacitor size being able to maintain the coil load without depleting under the main input voltage.
This setup would be similar to the mechanical analogue of pulley ratios, to use the higher voltage/low current (higher speed/lower torque) of the flyback, to convert into a more usable form.
peace love light
tyson :)
Unfortunately I can't check the current of my Earth battery because the copper tube got removed and the hole filled in, it must have got in somebody's way, bummer.
Anyway we all know how it works and about the power available in most cases.
The thing with the really high DC resistance coils is that as the power of the motor is increased by raising the voltage or whatever to drive a reasonable load then the power dissipated in the resistance of the coils would become significant.
All the high power motors that I've looked at that can run varying loads and are most efficient with a full load all have low resistance coils and it's for a good reason I think.
As well i don't think many of us have the equipment or skill to measure very low power accurately enough to make any claims. uW power devices can be very efficient because of the minute amount of current at play, Fact of the matter is that the load possible for the motor is directly related to the maximum power of the motor.
A spinning rotor has energy for sure but it isn't a useful output unless it is used for a useful purpose to do work. The very least load would be a no touch rotating timing device as a use for a spinning rotor
(effectively no load but it is being used) efficiency is then at play. If the rotor is serving no purpose the output is nil and so there is no efficiency at all.
Conrad, to get to higher speeds wind resistance will be a factor as well, uA power devices are also restricted by wind resistance. Try taking a uA power motor with 9000 Ohms motor coil resistance up to 4000 rpm and see how hot the coils get because of how much the input multiplies to do it and the massive DC resistance.
Basically if a light rotor takes a fair while to spin up at full power the motor has very little usable shaft power. All things being equal it does take more than double the energy to run the rotor at double the speed because of increased wind resistance mainly. Just like a fan, the load caused by a fan as it speeds up is not linear, it takes a lot more energy to take a fan from say 2200 to 2300 rpm than it does to go from 300 rpm to 400 rpm. Lot's more. If the speed is continuously raised for a fan eventually it will cause cavitation and possibly the resistance caused by more speed will even off or even drop, but so will the air moved.
Work cannot be performed without energy being used to do it.
Cheers
P.S. I think the real question we should ask ourselves is. Do we think this device or a device like it can produce more output than we input to make it work ? Considering the DC resistance of the circuit I would be inclined to say, I don't think so.
If anyone could maybe explain how they think it might be possible by using less and less power, or why going this route would give more chance than any other or any chance of producing "more out than in" I would appreciate the insight.
..
Quote from: Farmhand on June 10, 2013, 01:48:24 AM
Oh I meant to say that an Earth battery would run LaserSabers motor for free a few times over I think.
I have two dissimilar stakes driven in the ground about 0.5 meter and 2 meters apart one is copper tube the other is a galvanized steel picket. They would last for years, and is scrap metal.
I get at times up to 900 mV with some short circuit current which I don't have equipment to measure properly and don't remember the measurement I got last time but I could try to check, I'll need to find a better meter, I might use the uA meter I have set up as a field strength indicator, I'll just need to disassemble it, i'll try with a multimeter first if I can find a suitable one.
Cheers
It should do it easily. I have run my Bedini motor from mine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rauOlhNK0iY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rauOlhNK0iY)
This was from an output of just 2 volts. I did not make any of the JohnnyDavro modifications for efficiency at the time of this video.
Bill
Also posted at @lasersabers web site.
Quote from: LaserSaber on June 09, 2013, 10:21:28 PM
@ Wattsup
I may remake the project in 123D Design because it is important to me that people be able to access the design files freely.
I may put the older versions on eBay with a starting bid price to just cover the materials cost. I may end up with a lot of these motors before I finalize the design.
@LaserSaber
I really don't want to overburden you by suggesting you should migrate the design to 123D. Best you spend your time on more crucial matters. Forget about eBay when you have @wattsupbay right here ready to buy any one of your present models just to get my hands dirty, uh wet, uh busy, uh you know what I mean.
An easy test.........
Find a very small standard transformer (or one you have made yourself) and put the primary in series on one or the other side of the reed and see what you can get from the secondary. Then feed back the secondary to the holding cap. Maybe rectify the secondary with a germanium diode so the cap does not unload itself into the secondary. This would be a first trial in looping some energy back to the source capacitor without relying on the actual existing system.
If you want to get it working even harder use a second reed on top of the first reed and connect the transformer primary between the reeds so all three are in series (reed-transformer primary-reed) so that the primary gets completely disconnected from both sides when the reeds are open. See the effect.
When you apply any power source to a coiling system, does not matter how it is driven, if only one side of the coil is a breaking point, the other side of the coil is still permanently biased to the source polarity so the change in the coil is never complete. Is is only complete when both coil ends are completely disconnected that the coil re-biases itself to the only field left........to the Earth field, just like your compass will bounce back to north (or south) when you remove a magnet. This may provide some added energy source but only if the coil is completely off the source from both sides. Sounds simplistic but I have found this to be very true.
The problem arises when such a scheme is tried with mosfets or transistors, the above condition can never be 100% true as it can be with a physical reed break. You can even try a second reed without a transformer and just put that second reed on the other side of your series coils and see the effect.
wattsup
Quote from: wattsup on June 11, 2013, 12:09:01 PM
An easy test.........
Find a very small standard transformer (or one you have made yourself) and put the primary in series on one or the other side of the reed and see what you can get from the secondary. Then feed back the secondary to the holding cap. Maybe rectify the secondary with a germanium diode so the cap does not unload itself into the secondary. This would be a first trial in looping some energy back to the source capacitor without relying on the actual existing system.
If you want to get it working even harder use a second reed on top of the first reed and connect the transformer primary between the reeds so all three are in series (reed-transformer primary-reed) so that the primary gets completely disconnected from both sides when the reeds are open. See the effect.
When you apply any power source to a coiling system, does not matter how it is driven, if only one side of the coil is a breaking point, the other side of the coil is still permanently biased to the source polarity so the change in the coil is never complete. Is is only complete when both coil ends are completely disconnected that the coil re-biases itself to the only field left........to the Earth field, just like your compass will bounce back to north (or south) when you remove a magnet. This may provide some added energy source but only if the coil is completely off the source from both sides. Sounds simplistic but I have found this to be very true.
The problem arises when such a scheme is tried with mosfets or transistors, the above condition can never be 100% true as it can be with a physical reed break. You can even try a second reed without a transformer and just put that second reed on the other side of your series coils and see the effect.
wattsup
@Wattsup: I am always at a loss if someone "talks" a circuit instead of "drawing" it.
I would very much like to do your "easy test", but could not understand how to do it. Therefore I made a drawing of the circuit which you seem to talk about. (I have several standard transformers, some which I bought and some which I wound myself.)
Questions:
1) Could you please clarify the circuit for your "easy test", best by making a drawing of the circuit. (Could be a hand drawing which you photograph.)
2) Should the "holding cap" be pre-charged? (To what Voltage?) Should there be a power supply (e.g. a battery)?
3) How should one activate the Reed switches? (Must probably happen at a certain frequency, and this will need energy?)
4) Any idea whether the secondary of the "standard transformer" should have more windings than the primary or the other way round or an equal amount of turns?
I am not sure if you are interested in a meaningful discussion of your "easy test". If you are, a drawing of the circuit and some useful and understandable details will probably be the only way forward.
Greetings, Conrad
@conradelektro
Yes maybe I should have been more explicit that these tests can be done on existing EZ Spin Motors.
I have done a drawing below to show you how to try it.
You can test it by precharging your cap to your regular voltage that you have used to run the motor. Or, you can always run it with your battery to start with and then remove the battery.
The two reeds can be positioned at the same location or at two different locations as long as they are activated at the same time by the rotor magnets. Then you can always play around with that position to see if a slight offset in timing will be better or not.
The transformer should be very small, about the size of your thumb. Primary to secondary ration of turns is really not important at this stage. Most transformers are step down type so you can always try it by using the secondary between the reeds and the primary going to the cap.
The other option I mention in the drawing is simply not using a transformer but having two reeds, one before and one after the 6 series coils. This is the real method to release the energy in the coils while the reeds are both open. If you scope this one I expect the waveform should rise off the screen
These are just low cost test ideas that I should be doing myself if I had an EZ motor (hint-hint). lol
wattsup
Added:
@gyulsan
Yes I had mentioned the diode as well but forgot to add it to the drawing. It is added now.
Hi wattsup,
May I mention that the DC resistance of the secondary coil of the transformer you connect in parallel with the 1000 uF capacitor may discharge it severly? Probably a diode in series with the secondary helps prevent discharging.
Gyula
The double Reed switch dilemma:
A) Opening two Reed switches: A reed switch before the primary and one after the primary of a transformer (or coils) will never open at exactly the same time. So, whatever happens will happen while one Reed switch is still on. One can adjust which one will open first.
B) Closing two Reed switches: It is similar when the Reed switch before and the Reed switch after the primary (or coils) close, but in this case the two Reed switches act like a logical AND. So, whatever happens will happen at the moment the second Reed switch closes as well. One can adjust which one will close first (but it does not matter which one closes first).
Conclusion:
Opening or closing two Reed switches at the same time is practically not possible. Electricity moves at the speed of light, the mechanical action of a Reed switch is always too slow.
Even with two Reed switches in a single glass tube, one will open/close first (depending on how the magnet approaches the glass tube and on the physical properties of the two switches, one will bend easier than the other).
Greetings, Conrad
Circuit Diagram = http://xkcd.com/730/
:)
Quote from: Poit on June 12, 2013, 02:41:39 AM
Circuit Diagram = http://xkcd.com/730/ (http://xkcd.com/730/)
:)
That's it, perfectly clear. Should be patented. You made a big error by disclosing it. A wasted opportunity to become rich and famous (and to save the world at the same time).
Greetings, Conrad
Quote from: conradelektro on June 12, 2013, 02:33:49 AM
The double Reed switch dilemma:
....
Hi Conrad,
I understand your dilemma and agree with your conclusion, question is what can we lose from this problem. If we think of wattsup's transformer feedback proposal for instance, considering the interruption of current, does it matter which of the reeds switches off a moment later than the other? While I have not had an opportunity to test this, I think the bottom line is: current be finally interrupted at a moment (and this is what should be adjusted well) which is the BEST moment for operating the motor setup, this is to be adjusted with any one of the reeds out of the two. The spike from the interruption will appear across the transformer's primary coil too anyway, so it can get transformed to the secondary coil too. Is there something here I fail to see?
Regarding the Adams motor schematic where there are also two reeds operating, shown by Lanenal and advised to you by me, I just remembered Ossie's magnet motor with air core coils and 2 reed switches, see this link: http://jnaudin.free.fr/ossiemotor/indexen.htm
The schematic practically is the same as that from member Lanenal. Good info is given on how to time the two reed switches, watching the switching spikes on the induced waveform.
(Ossie's coils have 0.5 Ohm DC resistance each, from generator point of view this is desirable if higher capacity battery is to be charged up from the spikes.)
Greetings, Gyula
@conradelektro
I see you have a scope so maybe use one channel per reed and see their contact on the screen one over the other while you use a battery as feed to make sure the reeds register on the screen.
If the six rotor magnets are not at perfect 60 degrees on the rotor then both reeds have to be located at the same area. At the rotation speeds we are talking about and given the long reed action times, you should be able to find the "sweet spot".
You can always add a 7th magnet on the rotor but at mid-radius facing upwards with an 8th magnet holding the 7th in place from under the rotor. This would permit easy movement of that magnet pair to adjust. Place the reeds one next to the other making sure the reeds are both placed the same way next to each other with their flat side both horizontal then tape them and place over or under the top rotor shaft bridge support. Then by sliding the magnet into position you can test their simultaneous closing. There should be a location where both reeds will close and overlap.
wattsup
I got the relays and managed to get out the coils. They have 1600 Ohm DC resistance.
To get the coil out of the little housing of the relay one has to do some drilling, milling and hacksaw cutting. Not for the faint hearted without tools.
It will take some time till I have built a new 6 coil motor which can be expanded to 12 coils.
Greetings, Conrad
Quote from: wattsup on June 11, 2013, 12:09:01 PM
Also posted at @lasersabers web site.
@LaserSaber
I really don't want to overburden you by suggesting you should migrate the design to 123D. Best you spend your time on more crucial matters. Forget about eBay when you have @wattsupbay right here ready to buy any one of your present models just to get my hands dirty, uh wet, uh busy, uh you know what I mean.
An easy test.........
Find a very small standard transformer (or one you have made yourself) and put the primary in series on one or the other side of the reed and see what you can get from the secondary. Then feed back the secondary to the holding cap. Maybe rectify the secondary with a germanium diode so the cap does not unload itself into the secondary. This would be a first trial in looping some energy back to the source capacitor without relying on the actual existing system.
If you want to get it working even harder use a second reed on top of the first reed and connect the transformer primary between the reeds so all three are in series (reed-transformer primary-reed) so that the primary gets completely disconnected from both sides when the reeds are open. See the effect.
When you apply any power source to a coiling system, does not matter how it is driven, if only one side of the coil is a breaking point, the other side of the coil is still permanently biased to the source polarity so the change in the coil is never complete. Is is only complete when both coil ends are completely disconnected that the coil re-biases itself to the only field left........to the Earth field, just like your compass will bounce back to north (or south) when you remove a magnet. This may provide some added energy source but only if the coil is completely off the source from both sides. Sounds simplistic but I have found this to be very true.
The problem arises when such a scheme is tried with mosfets or transistors, the above condition can never be 100% true as it can be with a physical reed break. You can even try a second reed without a transformer and just put that second reed on the other side of your series coils and see the effect.
wattsup
Coils work on current flow.
I don't see any reason for a big difference between a low side switch a high side switch and both, effectively in the moments when current flows through the coil the same effect will happen, which is current will flow through the coil, The only real advantages for different switching methods is dependent on other considerations. The current through the coil should happen exactly the same with a low side switch as a high side switch or both if the discharging of the coils field energy is not considered and only the current flowing from the switching on. What happens after switch off is more dependent on the switching method I think.
Is there any test that shows a coil switched at both ends has a higher magnitude of current or whatever when switched at both ends ? Just because the voltage is present at the switch at the low end of the coil just before turn on means nothing much. It's just voltage.
The problem with a mosfet for a motor can be that the current can flow backwards through them via the body diode, unlike a bipolar. That can be mitigated or stopped, or it could be beneficial. Depends.
Basically if both ends of a simple coil are completely disconnected from the circuit at switch off the inductive energy release is unrecoverable.
Cheers
@Farmhand
No problem man. You can think that but the fact is there is a difference.
When you drive from one side and the reed opens, the recoil goes back onto the connected side. So where does the recoil go when both sides are open? The energy has to go somewhere right? So where?
Maybe the passing rotor magnet will give the answer. hehehe
I will just have to build the wheel myself and show you guys when it is ready. hehehe
Got myself 6 candidate coils to start. 3 bucks each but all they had were six.
wattsup
Added: Made a mistake. The relays were 4 bucks each ($3.99).
@ALL
I removed my six coils but I am not able to remove the center shaft from only one of them. So I went to another EE supply place this morning and found 8 more relays to hopefully have 12 coils in all.
Removing the coil was extremely easy but you need a grinder to grind down where the coil is held onto the support bracket. I explain the process in the images below as follows;
- How to remove a coil from a relay -
1) Remove the screws that hold the plastic cover and the back screw that holds the coil in place. Bend the small metal that holds the relay points in place (1A). Remove the spring and remove the relay points. Snip off the wires between the socket base and the bottom of the relay making sure you get the longest wire length possible for the two wires going to the coil. Grind down the excess from where the coil screw was attached (1B).
2) Bend the relay bracket (2A) at the grinding point to release the metal shaft that goes through the coil.
3) Coil shown removed from the relay bracket.
4) Put the coil screw back into the screw thread of the coil shaft.
5) Place the coil with screw facing upwards so that the other side of the coil is supported at a higher point.
6) Hit the screw with a hammer hard enough to push the shaft downwards.
7) Use a longer convenient metal bar (screwdriver bit worked fine) and hit it with a hammer to push the coil shaft out of the coil spool.
8) Shows coil shaft removed from the spool.
9) Out of 6 relays, one of them (9A) could not be removed because of some excess glue that must have entered between the coil shaft and the coil spool during the manufacturing process. One coil had part of the spool broken but I think it is still OK to use. Four came out very well.
I will do the same for the other relays until I can get 12 coils.
Then I have to make a wheel and start playing. hehehe
wattsup
Hi guys!
This is my toy for now; still working on it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVkhjjr4Ovc&feature=youtu.be
@wattsup: nice relays. My experience also shows that one has to come up with a technique to remove the coil from a relay. Sometimes it helps to drill a hole at a strategic place, specially to remove the core. Grinding or filing helps to remove parts which have been glued, soldered or casted. The first attempts are the most difficult and coils are easily damaged, then one usually sees the right way. Each type of relay poses different problems, bigger relays are easier to handle.
Wattsup, could you please measure the DC resistance of your coils (with the Ohm-meter)? I do not know your goal, but if it is low power consumption (like 1 µA on average as with Lasersaber's 3D-prinbted motors) the DC resistance (or inductance, which is more difficult to measure) is the main factor.
@mariuscivic: I could not watch your YouTube movie, may be you are changing it just now?
Greetings, Conrad
@conradelektro
Yes I measured my coils and put up an image. Out of 14 relays I managed to remove 11 coils successfully because the others presented problems of inner center shafts being very tight. Any overexertion with the hammer and the coil wire cuts somewhere that is impossible to see.
I will have to find another coil so I will go to a third EE store today.
I wonder if we can buy these coils from the manufacturer before they make relays with them. hehehe
My average coil specs are as follows;
Designed for 24VDC.
0.179 H
0.480 kOhm
Once I measured the inductance, I simply set the scale to capacitance and it gave a reading of 0.52 uF.
I will try to make a wheel like @Lasersabers but of course I do not have the 3D printing capability. I want to work on a design that will allow some flexibility on magnet and coil positioning so I can play around in more then one physical delimitation.
I also want to find three more coils but slightly bigger to mix in with the other coils in various configurations.
I am thinking of a design that will have retractable stems for both the rotor magnets and pick-up coils. That would allow me to bring the 12 coils either tightly together or slightly separated apart. The other main criteria is to be able to change the number of rotor magnets without having to make a new rotor. I still have some ceramic bearings so I will probably use that.
Anyways, I am still a while away from getting it all done and will provide info as it progresses.
wattsup
@wattsup: thank you for the coil info. Will be interesting to see your experience with these coils
@mariuscivic: I could watch your video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVkhjjr4Ovc. Very nice suspension of the axle. As far as I could see in the video, the axel is hovering above the magnet in the base, only the top pointed end causes a little friction? The rotor in the video has two magnets, and one magnet further to the centre?
I see that your multimeter allows to measure current (DC A). Would be interesting to see the average current draw of your contraption?
I like trigger coils and transistor based drive circuits (because I have a low opinion of Reed switches). But for very low current draw (e.g. a few µA at 1 to 2 Volt) it seems that one has to use a Reed switch. At least I could not find a transistor circuit with such a low power draw.
Greetings, Conrad
Quote from: wattsup on June 17, 2013, 08:27:41 AM
...
Designed for 24VDC.
0.179 H
0.480 kOhm
Once I measured the inductance, I simply set the scale to capacitance and it gave a reading of 0.52 uF.
...
Hi wattsup,
I recall a similar case I read somewhere on another forum or maybe on this forum that an LC meter showed a certain "capacitor" value in the some hundred nanoFarad range when its scale or range selector switch was set to Capacitance from the previous Inductance setting when the intention was to measure a coil.
I do not think this reading (0.52 uF) has any real meaning on the coil's capacitance, I do think it is an erroneous reading.
A possible explanation may come from the inside circuitry of the LC meter, please read this quote from topic in "Stray Inductance and Capacitance" chapter from this site ( http://my.integritynet.com.au/purdic/lc-meter-project.htm#meas ), just under the Measuring Inductance and Capacitance chapter:
"If an inductor is inserted when the Cx switch is depressed the result will be an increase in frequency, F2 greater than F1, rather than a decrease. This is because the inductor has been placed in parallel with L1 and inductors in parallel always are less than the value of the smallest of the two values."
(F1 and F2 are the frequencies of the inside oscillator as they change as per the unknown coils dictate.) Probably your LC meter operates on a similar measuring method as is described for the LC meter project in the link and your meter also gets fooled. The self capacitance of such relay coil must be in the range of 10-20 pF or so.
(When the meter is set to C measurement scale, the inner oscillator 'expects' a real unknown capacitor but it gets a 'short circuited' capacitor i.e. a coil instead, so a real LC oscillating circuit cannot develop, this is why the erroneous display reading.)
On your relay coil: it is possible that there have been members of this KA series of relays manufactured with 48V or even 110V DC coils, so their DC resistance may have been in the some kOhm range, if you can find such types also at a bargain price they may serve better for motor operation than the present 480 Ohm coils. I mention this only if you wish to get current draw in the uA range like Lasersaber had.
rgds, Gyula
When an unmodified relay 24 v dc 14 pin was placed near the rotating N S neo magnet rotor it produced 15 to 18 v dc which I connected back to the source via a diode
Using solar, wall outlet, and battery @ 250 mA then the additional relay for a loop back system 362 rpm can generate additional realys / 18 v supply each which can be placed in a bus link .......good for stable supply like a UPS
totoalas ;)
Wattsup wants to switch off a coil with two Reed switches. I am concerned about the simultaneous closing/opening of two Reed switches.
Now I found by chance a YouTube video that shows a clever circuit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auykiV4Kq68 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auykiV4Kq68) that switches off both ends of a coil at the same time (one Reed switch, PNP and NPN transistor).
One can speculate, that two transistors do not switch the coil completely off. But that is probably not the reason for the lack of OU. Ossi motors with two Reed switches also were not OU.
The video also shows very nice magnet bearings.
Greetings, Conrad
@conradelektro
There should be no problem to switch both side of the coils at the voltages we are talking about.
@LaserSaber (Posted on @LazerHacker site as well.)
Did you ever mention your coil values on the V2 and V3, inductance, resistance.
I just pulled 12 coils from some relays and was searching anywhere you may have posted this so we can compare our coils or better still find a better analog.
Also, I am putting down a more revised design that will permit to change coil numbers or magnet numbers with the least hassle possible. Just a few more ideas to make a build that will enable me to have more flexibility with one design.
wattsup
I experimented with the "Ossi-Motor 1 Reed 2 transistor circuit" from sMartcreations2010:
It was not very interesting, the motor started to run at 12.5 V and 1 mA. The feedback diodes had no effect whatsoever.
sMartcreations2010 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auykiV4Kq68 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auykiV4Kq68) used different transistors which seem to work better. It is strange that the transistors fire at all.
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad,
Perhaps the very low inner impedance of the power supply 'supresses' the back spikes coming from the coils via the two diodes, however small those spikes might be due to the small ON coil current involved. Just place a diode in series with one of the supply rails, perhaps the spikes will appear and increase the DC voltage level a little across the electrolytic cap (or the diodes' forward voltage losses 'gulp' the small increase).
Why you say it is strange the transistors fire at all, I wonder.
Thanks for your efforts.
Greetings, Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on June 18, 2013, 04:55:37 PM
1) Perhaps the very low inner impedance of the power supply 'supresses' the back spikes coming from the coils via the two diodes, however small those spikes might be due to the small ON coil current involved. Just place a diode in series with one of the supply rails, perhaps the spikes will appear and increase the DC voltage level a little across the electrolytic cap (or the diodes' forward voltage losses 'gulp' the small increase).
2) Why you say it is strange the transistors fire at all, I wonder.
Ad 1) I will put a diode between the power supply and the positive rail.
Ad 2) In the "Ossi motor circuit" shown in my Reply #200 no current is flowing into the bases of the two transistors (base to base connection via 1 K resistor and Reed switch). Why do the transistors switch? (I checked with the Scope, they do switch, but not completely.)
Tomorrow I will try a circuit with two IRLIZ44NPbF [R-DS(ON) 0.022 Ohm, V-GS(th) 1 to 2 Volt] , it should run with 2 Volt. See the attached diagram. Comments are appreciated, may be I there is an error in the circuit?
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad,
The MOSFET circuit version looks good to me, it can work, albeit normally a P-channel MOSFET is used at the upper position (where the pnp is connected in your bipolar transistor version).
Perhaps a 10 kOhm resistor would insure a little quicker switch-OFF time instead of the 100 kOhm, it can discharge gate-source capacitors more rapidly (RC time constant is less).
Regarding the pnp-npn transistor circuit why the transistors switch: you can consider the base-emitter junction of the pnp transistor as a diode with its anode at the emitter where the positive supply voltage is connected and its cathode is at the base (the arrow symbol may be seen as a diode symbol pointing towards the base). And this is just the opposite for the npn transistor, its base is the anode of the junction diode and its emitter is the cathode, this latter going to the supply negative rail.
Now the supply voltage appearing across the rails, it "finds" two diodes in series: the positive supply voltage can start to drive current into the pnp transistor's emitter-base diode, biasing it in the forward direction and this current can continue to the base-emitter of the npn transistor via the resistor and the switch, the base current is defined by the 1 kOhm resistor only: base current=[12V-(2*0.65V)]/1 kOhm=10.7 mA whenever the reed switch is ON. (the 0.65V is the base-emitter bias voltages) I edited your schematic to show the base-emitter 'diodes' by the red arrows and the path of the base currents (via the resistor and the switch of course).
Gyula
Made some measurments to my toy; it's oscilating from 0.9 to 1.1 mA at full rpm. Also made another rotor more balanced and with no holes to reduce the air drag
Quote from: mariuscivic on June 19, 2013, 03:11:43 AM
Made some measurments to my toy; it's oscilating from 0.9 to 1.1 mA at full rpm. Also made another rotor more balanced and with no holes to reduce the air drag
@mariuscivic: now, with your nice contraption which uses very little power, you can try to recapture electric energy with pancake coils or any other strange coils (wich as some people claim cause no LENZ losses).
@gyulasun: thank you for the explanation of current flow through a base to base connection from PNP to NPN transistor. Still, it is astonishing that I needed 12 Volt to make it work? I tried 300 Ohm and even no resistor at all. Power draw increased but still, it would only work with 12 V or more.
I did some more tests with "disconnecting a coil at both ends":The circuit with the two IRLIZ44 MOSFETs worked very well. But I could not see any charging of the cap by the diodes.
I set the power supply to 6 Volt, waited till the rotor settled at a constant speed and then switched off the power supply. With my Russian mechanical stop watch I timed how long it took the 1000 µF cap to discharge from 6V to 2V (while the motor slowed down). It always took about 23 seconds, with diodes or without diodes. The same test while the cap discharged from 3V to 1.5V in about 32 seconds, and also no difference.
The circuit works of course even better with only one IRLIZ44. The rotor turns faster with less power and a feedback diode (or LED) increases power draw by about 10% and slows the rotor down.
So much for recharging a cap with the back EMF of a coil! Now, do you believe it will work any better with two Reed switches (in place of the two transistors)? Each coil in my little motor has 90 Ohm DC resistance, in sum the six coils have about 540 Ohm DC resistance.
Greetings, Conrad
P.S.: I bought the Russian stop watch at a fair in Vienna for 20.-- EUR where they sold old mechanical photo cameras (a few years ago). It must be 50 years old or even pre second world war, and is very heavy. It allows to take two times (one digit stops, the other continues). All mechanical, no electronics.
Hi Conrad,
I think the setup would work better with reed switches replacing the two transistors. At least you could get rid of the saturation voltage drops between the collector-emitter of the bipolar transistors and reeds may still have less DC resistance than your MOSFETs at lower gate-source voltages (when your supply voltage is 1-2V only). However, I do not expect a significant improvement.
I have not found an explanation why your bipolar transistor version needs a minimum of 12V supply or higher to operate, sounds strange for sure. Perhaps you may have some other pnp and npn transistor types to test this behaviour?
It all sounds like one transistor stage (either the pnp or the npn) would limit the maximum current takeable by the other stage and vice versa, here I assume if you omit any one stage and operate the setup with a single transistor, then the single bipolar transistor stage would surely operate from 1-2 Volt supply again as is normal. But why this limiting behaviour has a voltage window of 12V I do not know yet.
Another notice: the lack of recharging the capacitor even a little may show that too much part of the recovered energy from the collapse is wasted in the coils' resistance (540 Ohm). Because the source of the spikes are the coils so the generator inner impedance is a drawback from energy recovery point of view.
Greetings, Gyula
@gyulasun: thank you for the reply.
I will try two Reed switches instead of the two transistors. But first I will try to charge a separate cap. My guess is that it will charge to less than the supply Voltage, which would explain why a supply cap never gets charged. Supply cap charging can only be achieved if power is supplied to the rotor (e.g. by blowing air over it) so that it turns faster as it would with the momentary cap Voltage.
One could overcome the lesser Voltage of the BEMF spike by introducing an up-transformer (as Wattsup is suggesting http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363047/#msg363047 (http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363047/#msg363047)), which I will try as well. My suspicion: whatever one does it has to be paid for with supply power.
My other suspicion: the Ossi motor would have performed equally well without the return diodes. Did anyone try that? Lasersaber's 3D-printed motors are in principle Ossi-motors (but with a different and simpler drive circuit). The original Ossi motor used 4 very high impedance coils (for Audio speaker adaptation) which had very high DC resistance. Lasersaber's motors would run on a 1.5 Volt AAA rechargeable battery for many days as did the Ossi motors.
P.S.: I have little luck with the DadHav circuit. It did not work with MOSFETs and not with BC547 / BC549. I could not make it work with any of my pulse motors. By chance I have the same transistors as Lidmotor uses (2N3906 and 2N4401) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auNqKNZLbc0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auNqKNZLbc0) (see at minute 5:26) and I will try them. Like a base to base connection it only seems to work well with specific transistors. Eventually I will order exactly the same transistors as DadHav uses (MPS-A06 / MPS-A56, I do not have the MPS-A56). I like that DadHav's circuit does not need any "trigger" like trigger coil, Reed switch or Hall sensor. The drive coil (or series of coils) is at the same time driver and trigger.
Greetings, Conrad
hi
I read long time ago a PDF supposedly from Ossie himself in which he recommended as the best position, to put the reed switch INSIDE the coil. (that is at center).
cheers
Quote from: ALVARO_CS on June 19, 2013, 03:33:27 PM
hi
I read long time ago a PDF supposedly from Ossie himself in which he recommended as the best position, to put the reed switch INSIDE the coil. (that is at center).
cheers
Have to try that. It is difficult with the coils of my present little six coil motor, but in my next design (which is under way) I will leave the hole through the coils open on both sides (through which I can insert a Reed switch). Good idea.
My guess: with the Reed switch inside the coil it's ON-time is very short, which reduces power draw. It is also a good position to trigger the pulse, just as the magnet is dead centre over the coil. The momentum of the rotor assures that it is pushed in the right direction. And the motor would run in both directions equally well (after an initial push).
With my little 6 coil motor I see that the pulse happens as the magnets are almost past the coils. This is good for self starting in the right direction but not optimal.
The power of collaboration, many good ideas are pooled.
Greetings, Conrad
You should be able to charge an external capacitor all the way up to the peak voltage of the spike, much higher than the supply battery voltage. As you have already figured out, the run cap can't charge up because it is always being shorted out during each cycle. But you can transfer energy from your run battery into an external capacitor very effectively, as you will find out. Then the "trick" will be to switch the external cap back into the circuit at the right time to put its collected energy back into the rotor's rotation. You could do this with a simple comparator circuit and a transistor, probably.
You will need a fast diode, the faster the better, and of course its voltage rating should be high enough to withstand the maximum spike voltage. Something like MUR1560, but the UF4005 - 4007 type rectifiers might be good enough. I've also found suitable fast diodes in old TV circuitboards. RG10A is a fairly common superfast rectifier diode in TVs. RU2 or RU2B are also in there.
Hi Conrad,
Sorry but the air core coils Ossie used have 1.05 Ohm DC resistance, 1.8 mH each. See this link: http://www.overunity.com/8731/the-ossie-motor/msg226572/#msg226572 and Naudin used also 1.8 mH inductances but with 0.55 Ohm DC resistance each: http://jnaudin.free.fr/ossiemotor/indexen.htm This is one reason why they used series resistances: to limit input current and save reeds from premature burning. But the other reason for the series resistors is that a balance, a matching can be reached between the motor impedance and the battery impedance, this insures the best operation and long running time. On this AC/DC matching, here is what Ossie wrote:
http://www.overunity.com/8731/the-ossie-motor/msg226685/#msg226685
I agree with trying to collect the spikes in a separate capacitor and see the voltage level received. The up-transformer sounds also good to me and I also think the recovered energy strongly depends on the input energy, minus the losses. (unfortunately, the advantage of high impedance coils for motor mode turns to a disadvantage when capturing the spikes: the high impedance coils will operate as high inner impedance generators when supplying the spikes so also matching would be needed towards the 'load' that uses up the captured energy (or use the captured energy at a time the motor cannot see that load).
Regarding the DadHav pnp-npn circuit, you sound to be aware of the fact that the rotor magnet should be given a good hand-pulse to start rotation, i.e. induce an intial AC voltage in the coil because otherwise the circuit cannot work. IT may well be transistor type dependent though. The circuit can be considered as an oscillator after the start, syncronized by the rotor magnet inductions.
rgds, Gyula
Ordered 50,000 ft of 42awg wire. Well, 49,000 and change. ;D Will be here next week. $35 shipped ebay. ;D
Not a bad price and will have enough to do many things at many turns and many feet. :o ;)
I said this once a long time ago back when Zeropoint132 made his no bearing bedini with 4000 turns bifi, I said, I wonder if it is the fact that the coil is wound with many many turns of fine wire. But I never messed with very fine wire because I didnt think I could get much out really, and I wasnt sure if Z's motor actually worked. But now I have enough of the right wires that I can give it a go. I tried it with much lesser windings and slightly larger wire than Z used, but didnt work.
One thing I am thinking now is that maybe Z's motor wasnt self running really, maybe it was just like Lasersabers motor. Dunno.
Lasers motor seems to be 'running' on a fine line of balance between the coils driving the rotor from the cap and effective charging if the rotor is accelerating, increasing in rpm from a dead stop or from a standing rpm. Just a slight increase in rpm from an outside influence and the cap voltage goes up seemingly to match the rpm.
Below is what Im going to use as bobbins with 5/16x1/8 neos on the rotor. The washers and black plastic spacers are from ace hardware. I use a superglue that is called Tite Chairs. It doesnt say superglue, but it is very thin liquid and comes with fine precision tips that work well when ya get the hang of it. The plastic washers and spacers are roughed up a bit with 400 grit in the areas where the washers are fit to the spacer. The spacer has a flange on one end so just a lil pressure and a tiny bit of Tite Chairs and then the other end the washer is set flush at the end. It hods up very well for nylon washers and what ever the spacers are made of.
Looking to do 24 coils and try 24 alternating mags and using a bias mag for the reed so it only fires on N poles not S, or vice verse.
Im looking into rectangular coils also as I explain why in this thread below with pics. Just trying some things so far.
http://www.overunity.com/6763/energy-amplification/msg363481/#msg363481
Mags
@Gyulasun and @Tinselkoala: thank you for your comments.
Charging of a 100 µF capacitor with the Back-EMF of the 6 coils in series:
(If you want to see the little six coil motor look at http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363434/#msg363434 (http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363434/#msg363434) , the six coils have a total DC resistance of 540 Ohm)
I am really astonished, the Reed switch allows a much better charging of an external capacitor than the MOSFET.
With the MOSFET (as a switch) the cap only charged to a little more than the supply Voltage.
With the Reed switch the cap charged to a multiple of the supply Voltage.
See the attached schematics, I am moving on to a second Reed switch in order to disconnect the 6 coils completely.
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad,
Good tests, thanks and a possible explanation for the reed performing much better that it has no any shunt capacitor towards the negative battery rail like the MOSFET drain source capacitance represents (some nF in the low 1-2V D-S voltage range).
What current consumption is involved from the supply when the reed is used?
rgds, Gyula
PS Will be away from the internet for a week from this afternoon. Keep up and enjoy experimenting.
Quote from: gyulasun on June 20, 2013, 08:24:40 AM
What current consumption is involved from the supply when the reed is used?
The current consumption with the Reed switch is about double in comparison with the MOSFET (as a switch).
2 mA at 2 Volt with the Reed switch and 1 mA at 2 Volt with the MOSFET. The Reed switch circuit consumes about 500 µA at 1 Volt (MOSFET does not work at 1 V).
Greetings, Conrad
Well, then the Rds ON resistance seems to be twice as much than the ON resistance of the reed, this is an addition to the losses.
Gyula
Tests with two Reed switches showed no visible improvement over one Reed switch!
It seems that charging of an external cap with a "low Voltage and low Amperage pulse motor with high impedance coils" works best with one Reed switch (instead of a transistor as a switch). The introduction of a second Reed switch did not visibly improve cap charging.
The second Reed switch increased the drag on the rotor and made operation at 1 V impossible. The motor runs nicely with one Reed switch at 1 Volt supply Voltage.
Is it possible to feed the charge from the external cap back into the circuit in order to lower its power consumption? Many tried and did not succeed, therefore I leave it at that for the moment.
I have the impression that charging the external cap increases the power draw of the motor by about 10%, which is difficult to measure consistently. Also the rotor seems to slow down a bit when charging the external cap. The charging of the 100 µF cap happens rather slowly, very much slower than the 1000 µF cap drains when running the motor.
Greetings, Conrad
P.S.: I did some more tests. The three circuits depicted in the attached diagram seem to cause the same external cap charging and seem to have about the same power draw:
2 V supply Voltage, 0.5 mA average power draw, 4.7 µF (400 V) charged to at least 12 Volt (takes a few minutes, 1N5711 diode used)
6 V supply Voltage, 1.6 mA average power draw, 4.7 µF (400 V) charged to at least 50 Volt (takes a few minutes, UF4007 diode used)
It is hard to see whether power draw increases and rotor speed decreases a bit during external cap charging. Beyond my measuring capabilities. Let's say external cap charging does not change significantly the behaviour of the motor.
You have a rotor that is symmetrical, so it is fairly easy to calculate the rotational moment of inertia, based on the geometry and the masses of the individual parts. Once you know your MoI, then you can know the energy in Joules stored in the rotor's spinning simply by knowing how fast it is spinning.
So then the "cost" of charging the capacitor, which slows the rotor down, is given simply by subtraction. Since you know the amount of energy in a capacitor by knowing its charge voltage and its capacitance in Farads, the efficiency of the charge transfer of energy from rotor to capacitor, and back again, can be calculated with some precision.... as long as you can measure your rotor speed precisely and in real-time. In fact the major source of error in this process is the capacitor value, usually.
Do you have any way of measuring your rotor RPM, like an oscilloscope, or maybe an Arduino and a photodetector or Hall sensor?
Quote from: conradelektro on June 20, 2013, 10:39:11 AM
Tests with two Reed switches showed no visible improvement over one Reed switch!
I went through this a while back. I used 2 led's one for each reed and a battery with current limiting resistor each for the leds. This will allow you to see the timing of the reeds to get them as close as possible.
In Ossies circuit, even if the reeds are not 'perfectly' switched on and off(off being the most important) it should work well at getting current back to the drive battery. For example, if one reed switches off before the other, the coils collapsing can still flow through a diode and the reed that is not off yet to keep the inductor going till the reed finally opens. Is a unique circuit. I would try my reed/leds timing method before giving up on the 2 reed setup. ;) Or use a 2 ch scope to see the timing. The leds work well and you will be able to really see at very slow hand operated speed of the rotor.
Mags
@Tinselkoala: I think I came up with a simple way to allow for quantitative power consumption comparison (see the attached drawing). No actual numbers, but one time measurement should be longer in case power is fed back.
@Magluvin: the attached scope shot shows the slight mismatch of my two reed switches (one is exactly above the other).
May be the experts can explain why I measure no "power feedback" by the diodes in a "Ossi motor type set up"?
The attached pictures contain explanatory texts.
Greetings, Conrad
Finally I could measure without doubt that a feed back diode (or charging an external cap via a diode) consumes more power and slows the rotor down.
I used a circuit with just one Reed switch. See the attached drawing.
The 4.7 µF cap charges up to about 50 Volt (with the Voltmeter permanently connected, which is a small load). The rotor looses about 30% of its speed and power consumption rises by about 20% when a feedback diode is used (or while the 4.7 F cap is being charged, specially during its initial charging up to 6 Volt after being shortened).
When a white LED is used as a feedback diode the LED is shining and the circuit consumes 2.3 mA and the rotor is slowing down. (In comparison to the circuit without feedback LED when the circuit consumes 2 mA.)
Greetings, Conrad
@TK
On your second to last post, yes that is also what I mentioned with cap across the coils through the right diode.
On your last post, you said the magic word "symmetrical" that I will expand on below.
Sorry - corrected, I will expand on that in a later post. hehehe
@ALL
I think @gyulasun is very right about the coils not having enough inductance even if six are in series. So you always have to keep that in mind and not be totally disheartened by the results. Inductance moves energy.
Of course, in my mind when I chose 24vdc rated coils I was thinking with the right magnet passage, each coil will produce 24 volts (hahaha). Of course if the coils were from a 110vac relay, the winds (hence inductance) would be at least 4 times greater to offer the same wattage handling as the 24 volt coil. But I will try these anyways.
According to @lasersaber on his 6 on 6 .....
"The coils seem to vary between 1.6 to 1.7K. The resistance on the six coiler is 9.9K."
Seen here:
http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg362805/#msg362805 (http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg362805/#msg362805)
Compare those to my 480 ohms and I am 4 times lower then him. No problemo we will find the right coils.
@conradelektro
I will be out for the next 3 days so back on Monday to start my wheel. Thanks for your great reports of your tests but always keep in mind that coil inductance seems to be a key issue.
I see the reeds are not opening at the same time but the scope will give you a direct visible means to adjust them closer to same timing.
Looking at your last circuit I am wondering if the power supply itself is eating up most of any excess juice from the coils. I think you can try as shown below to first isolate the power supply with a diode. That will push any return to the cap.
I am also putting up a second diagram (one reed usage) but this one you have to very careful. You need to find the an inductance coil that will match or be higher then the inductance of your 6 coils in series. Notice I switched the polarities on the power supply. Also I lowered the uF of the standard cap and put your higher uF cap separate via a diode so it is now a real load cap across the coils. Please be careful with this circuit as any mistake has a tendency to blow things. The resistor is there as a safety. You can also put in a low amp fuse just to be extra careful.
The voltage on the load cap should rise very well. Then it is a matter of feeding back the juice to the feed.
When I say feed, right now it is your power supply but that could be replaced with an even higher uF cap that could then receive the power back from the load cap via a second reed (or maybe even a zener diode - Hmmm).
I this circuit, you may need to first rotate the rotor manually very fast before you connect the feed power so that the reeds are already switching fast enough to not create a direct slow short across the feed.
Back soon.
wattsup
Quote from: wattsup on June 21, 2013, 08:53:23 AM
@TK
On your second to last post, yes that is also what I mentioned with cap across the coils through the right diode.
On your last post, you said the magic word "symmetrical" that I will expand on below.
Sorry - corrected, I will expand on that in a later post. hehehe
@ALL
I think @gyulasun is very right about the coils not having enough inductance even if six are in series. So you always have to keep that in mind and not be totally disheartened by the results. Inductance moves energy.
Of course, in my mind when I chose 24vdc rated coils I was thinking with the right magnet passage, each coil will produce 24 volts (hahaha). Of course if the coils were from a 110vac relay, the winds (hence inductance) would be at least 4 times greater to offer the same wattage handling as the 24 volt coil. But I will try these anyways.
According to @lasersaber on his 6 on 6 .....
"The coils seem to vary between 1.6 to 1.7K. The resistance on the six coiler is 9.9K."
Seen here:
http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg362805/#msg362805 (http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg362805/#msg362805)
Compare those to my 480 ohms and I am 4 times lower then him. No problemo we will find the right coils.
@conradelektro
I will be out for the next 3 days so back on Monday to start my wheel. Thanks for your great reports of your tests but always keep in mind that coil inductance seems to be a key issue.
I see the reeds are not opening at the same time but the scope will give you a direct visible means to adjust them closer to same timing.
Looking at your last circuit I am wondering if the power supply itself is eating up most of any excess juice from the coils. I think you can try as shown below to first isolate the power supply with a diode. That will push any return to the cap.
I am also putting up a second diagram (one reed usage) but this one you have to very careful. You need to find the an inductance coil that will match or be higher then the inductance of your 6 coils in series. Notice I switched the polarities on the power supply. Also I lowered the uF of the standard cap and put your higher uF cap separate via a diode so it is now a real load cap across the coils. Please be careful with this circuit as any mistake has a tendency to blow things. The resistor is there as a safety. You can also put in a low amp fuse just to be extra careful.
The voltage on the load cap should rise very well. Then it is a matter of feeding back the juice to the feed.
When I say feed, right now it is your power supply but that could be replaced with an even higher uF cap that could then receive the power back from the load cap via a second reed (or maybe even a zener diode - Hmmm).
I this circuit, you may need to first rotate the rotor manually very fast before you connect the feed power so that the reeds are already switching fast enough to not create a direct slow short across the feed.
Back soon.
wattsup
That second diagram using the Igniter/Ozone circuit wasnt quite right. Made the corrections below. ;D
Mags
@Mags
Just got back late last night.
Sorry but my diagram is correct for the specific ozone patent 568177. It uses both the discharge on connection of a capacitor and the discharge of an inductor on disconnection to give two pulses while making sure the pulses are damped since for Tesla undamped pulses are always lost to the environment.
But again this method is very difficult to maintain because if the inductor is not of high enough inductance to create its own natural resistance, you will be producing heat. That's why I added that resistor in the circuit.
wattsup
Finally, DadHav's circuit for my little 6 coil pulse motor:
The circuit makes the rotor turn with about 120 rpm and consumes less than 200 µA driven with a 1.5 V AAA battery.
Note, no Reed switch, the coils are also the trigger via the second transistor.
The 2.2 nF cap (from the base of the 2N3906 to GND) is essential for clean switching.
The circuit stems from DadHav www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b4xlCKn3LQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b4xlCKn3LQ) and the transistors were chosen by Lidmotor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epWPTeV_544 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epWPTeV_544) .
Greetings, Conrad
P.S.: I posted a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqQSJjRJ6EQ
Quote from: wattsup on June 24, 2013, 12:07:58 PM
@Mags
Just got back late last night.
Sorry but my diagram is correct for the specific ozone patent 568177. It uses both the discharge on connection of a capacitor and the discharge of an inductor on disconnection to give two pulses while making sure the pulses are damped since for Tesla undamped pulses are always lost to the environment.
But again this method is very difficult to maintain because if the inductor is not of high enough inductance to create its own natural resistance, you will be producing heat. That's why I added that resistor in the circuit.
wattsup
Hmm thats odd. When I was working on the Igniter circuit, I could have sworn it was the same just different switching. Your right. I dont think it would work though if the output/drive coil of the motor is used in series with the cap, being that the drive coil(of these motors) has high inductance already.
When the switch closes, the input charges up the large inductor through the output coil, of which it looks like a low inductance and not many turns in the pat. Imagine charging up the large inductor then letting the collapse currents charge the cap through the output coil of these motors. I dont think it will happen like the igniter circuit could where it charges the cap in the input/large inductor loop without the output coil in the way. If the output coil is high inductance and ohms, it will more than likely act as a choke to the collapse current of the large inductor and end more with a spark across the switch instead I believe.
Have you tried the ozone circuit on a motor as you show? I would be interested if it works. ;D
Got my 42awg wire in today. I had been playing with some relay coil wire till it came and this 42 is smaller. Near hair like. Its 1lb, supposedly about 50,000 ft. The roll measures about 85kohm. Almost 10 miles long. Gunna take some pics for comparisons to 30awg, 26awg and the relay wire I was playing with.
Before I use any of it im going to try and see what kind of field and generator properties it has a a whole roll. Just for kicks. ;)
I also have a compass module from a VW Touareg that has 2 coils perpendicular from each other and they are wound with even finer wire than I just received. :o If they produce voltage just from the earths magnetic field motion to provide input to the compass circuit, it will be interesting to see how much. The compass reads whether the vehicle is in motion or not, so it must be the coils are picking up on moving earth fields.
Will see.
Mags
Quote from: conradelektro on June 24, 2013, 03:11:59 PM
Finally, DadHav's circuit for my little 6 coil pulse motor:
The circuit makes the rotor turn with about 120 rpm and consumes less than 200 µA driven with a 1.5 V AAA battery.
Note, no Reed switch, the coils are also the trigger via the second transistor.
The 2.2 nF cap (from the base of the 2N3906 to GND) is essential for clean switching.
The circuit stems from DadHav www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b4xlCKn3LQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b4xlCKn3LQ) and the transistors were chosen by Lidmotor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epWPTeV_544 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epWPTeV_544) .
Greetings, Conrad
P.S.: I posted a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqQSJjRJ6EQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqQSJjRJ6EQ)
Hey Conrad
Does the motor work better with the 2.2 cap? Was wondering if the noise is something that can be collected instead of snubbed with the cap.
Nice job. Ive been meaning to try Dads circuit. I like it. ;)
Mags
Here are some pix of wire. First is a pic of, starting from the top 27awg 30 awg then unknown from a relay coil, then the 42 awg, and finally, the bottom, one strand of my hair. ;D Had to do it. Sacrificial hair. ;D The hair is just about 42 awg, just a 'hair' thinner. ;D
The next is a pic through a magnifying glass to get as clear of a pic as possible with this camera. It is of the 2 perpendicular coils of the electronic compass along with a strand of 42 awg. The pic doesnt show so well, but those wires in the 2 coils are finer than 42 awg. With a 100x microscope the coils wire is almost half the diameter of the 42.
Then just 2 pics of the wire roll
Mags
"The circuit makes the rotor turn with about 120 rpm and consumes less than 200 µA driven with a 1.5 V AAA battery."
Please forgive my ignorance, naivety and assumptions.
If this demonstration draws less than 200µA, which is 200micro amps... or 2mA and spins magnets at 120rpm... my first thought would be, what happens when you introduce a generator coil either above or below the rotating magnets? Lenz Law kicks in right? but I would be interested to see by how much!
Say, you have a generator coil, how much more draw would there be on the AA battery? double? 4mA? 10 times?! 20mA? even if it was 10 times the draw, surely a generator coil could produce more than 1.5V @ 20mA? hence over unity?
**EDIT** I made a mistake! 200 microamps = .2milliamps!! not 2mA! wow! ok... thats even better!!!
Quote from: Poit on June 24, 2013, 11:03:11 PM
"The circuit makes the rotor turn with about 120 rpm and consumes less than 200 µA driven with a 1.5 V AAA battery."
Please forgive my ignorance, naivety and assumptions.
If this demonstration draws less than 200µA, which is 200micro amps... or 2mA and spins magnets at 120rpm... my first thought would be, what happens when you introduce a generator coil either above or below the rotating magnets? Lenz Law kicks in right? but I would be interested to see by how much!
Say, you have a generator coil, how much more draw would there be on the AA battery? double? 4mA? 10 times?! 20mA? even if it was 10 times the draw, surely a generator coil could produce more than 1.5V @ 20mA? hence over unity?
**EDIT** I made a mistake! 200 microamps = .2milliamps!! not 2mA! wow! ok... thats even better!!!
200ua = .2ma ;)
Mags
Quote from: Poit on June 24, 2013, 11:03:11 PM
**EDIT** I made a mistake! 200 microamps = .2milliamps!! not 2mA! wow! ok... thats even better!!!
Lasrsabers motor uses only about 1ua. Check out his vids on YT. ;)
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on June 24, 2013, 11:11:13 PM
200ua = .2ma ;)
Mags
I know, I made an edit straight after I posted it... see at the end of what i said... :)
This is truly amazing! I am very impressed... and if you have seen any of my other posts, you will see that 99% of my posts are sceptical and cynical... not here though.. this looks very promising.
Quote from: Magluvin on June 24, 2013, 11:13:47 PM
Lasrsabers motor uses only about 1ua. Check out his vids on YT. ;)
Mags
Yep... nothing can compare to Lasrsabers projects.. he is absolutely amazing at what he does!
A modern day Tesla!
Quote from: Poit on June 24, 2013, 11:16:54 PM
I know, I made an edit straight after I posted it... see at the end of what i said... :)
This is truly amazing! I am very impressed... and if you have seen any of my other posts, you will see that 99% of my posts are sceptical and cynical... not here though.. this looks very promising.
;D ;)
0.2mA yes of coursse ;D now you see why ou is possible ? just get the electricity by keeping cloe the generator coils..but ! you must have lenz-free coils :o
Quote from: forest on June 25, 2013, 02:14:09 AM
0.2mA yes of coursse ;D now you see why ou is possible ? just get the electricity by keeping cloe the generator coils..but ! you must have lenz-free coils :o
lenz-free coils? its a bit like saying i want a square balloon...
but you don't necessarily need a lenz free coil... lets say that for example that due to lenz law the draw increases 100 fold!
100 x .2mA = 20mA
out put = 21mA
OU!
FYI! in case people are thinking i'm posting real figures, I AM NOT, just exercising my point.. that is all.
Poit
I'm sure lasersaber already checked it . My humble advice would to start with air core coils in parallel to tap power from it (less lenz drag). First one coil, adjust to the output voltage then place all around and try to charge another capacitor using fast Schottky diodes and watch how "juice" it can be squeezed out of this assembly without slowing down motor. Then the rest is obvious..
I am writing about this circuit http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363823/#msg363823 ( video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqQSJjRJ6EQ )
@Magluvin:
No 2.2 nF cap: You probably have seen that the spikes (if the 2.2 nF cap is missing) are almost 16 V (1.5 V power supply to the circuit). This is interesting but not good for turning the rotor. The rotor turns without the 2.2 nF cap, but slower and is difficult to start. The circuit only works around 2 Volt supply Voltage. The rotor can not be started with a supply Voltage of 4 Volt or more.
2.2 nF cap in the circuit: With the 2.2 nF cap (which prohibits self oscillation according to my uneducated opinion) the circuit is switching cleanly and the motor runs nicely, also with higher Voltages (I tried up to 9 Volt, then the rotor starts to act crazy due to imbalance).
@Poit, forest:
1µA versus 200 µA: I am aware that Lasersaber is running his motors with 1 µA and I am trying to match that. So far I am a bit below 200 µA. The main reason for Lasersaber's low power draw is the 1600 Ohm DC resistance of each of his coils (very high impedance). The coils in my motor only have 90 Ohm DC resistance. But I already have coils from relays with 1600 Ohm DC resistance and I am on the way of building a motor with them. See my post http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363167/#msg363167 . The low power draw can for sure be achieved with the 1600 Ohm coils from relays, but the rotor may not turn with 1 µA due to the fact that it probably will be less precisely built and will have more friction than Lasersaber's motors.
About harvesting electricity with a generator coil: I see that already a little resistance can stop the rotor. It must be a really Lenz-free generator coil to achieve anything interesting. But I believe in having a very low power draw rotor before trying to harvest electricity with special generator coils. It must be easier to harvest µW instead of some Watts. Gently does it.
Remark on DadHav's two transistor circuit: It has some potential because it does not need a Reed switch (yes, I do not like Reed switches) or any other trigger component (like a Hall sensor or a separate trigger coil). The drive coils produce the trigger signal which is sensed by the PNP transistor (which then in turn switches the NPN transistor driving the coils). I am still playing with DadHav's circuit and want to make it work with a MOSFET, it intrigues me. I tried many transistors and resistor values but only the 2.2 nF cap lead to some success.
Greetings, Conrad
Hello Conrad, I'm really happy to see you guys using the little circuits. As you know I can't take 100% credit for the idea. The simple circuit is in some of the self start circuits like SmartCreations and a few other have videos of. I agree with you on the LaserSaber motor. Very high impedance, large diameter rotor with strong magnets and almost no friction. Don't forget the the slow RPM's and pulse rate. I didn't pay a lot of attention but how did LS measure the slow frequency pulses. He couldn't have used a meter or did he? The double circuit is a very different story with some interesting output results as you might have noticed on the video. It would really make me happy to see you guys make some improvements and have some fun with something a little different than what we've been doing. The circuit is in the most basic form and needs adjustment for sure. If you notice the very interesting aspect of how it ran the model airplane motor it might show some potential. The down side of the circuit as it would pertain to a motor having some torque is that if you load the shaft and slow the motor you also loose the bias on the driver transistor and in turn the power transistor gives in to the load rather than try to power through the slow down right? Anyway guys I hope you don't mind me hanging around a little bit to see how you're doing. I've thought about making a motor like LaserSaber's just because I think it's really cool and it could be made to be a kinetic work of art. BUT, I've had my motors to the point where adding only a few RPM's charges instead of discharges the capacitor many times, it's on one of my videos. Getting the little extra you need has to come from Unobtania or Unobtainium. Ha, even if the Unobtainium is a Lenz free coil. There has to be an answer somewhere once you get that close. Good talking to you guys.
John Hav.
Quote from: DadHav on June 25, 2013, 01:24:49 PM
Hello Conrad, I'm really happy to see you guys using the little circuits. As you know I can't take 100% credit for the idea. The simple circuit is in some of the self start circuits like SmartCreations and a few other have videos of. I agree with you on the LaserSaber motor. Very high impedance, large diameter rotor with strong magnets and almost no friction. Don't forget the the slow RPM's and pulse rate. I didn't pay a lot of attention but how did LS measure the slow frequency pulses. He couldn't have used a meter or did he? The double circuit is a very different story with some interesting output results as you might have noticed on the video. It would really make me happy to see you guys make some improvements and have some fun with something a little different than what we've been doing. The circuit is in the most basic form and needs adjustment for sure. If you notice the very interesting aspect of how it ran the model airplane motor it might show some potential. The down side of the circuit as it would pertain to a motor having some torque is that if you load the shaft and slow the motor you also loose the bias on the driver transistor and in turn the power transistor gives in to the load rather than try to power through the slow down right? Anyway guys I hope you don't mind me hanging around a little bit to see how you're doing. I've thought about making a motor like LaserSaber's just because I think it's really cool and it could be made to be a kinetic work of art. BUT, I've had my motors to the point where adding only a few RPM's charges instead of discharges the capacitor many times, it's on one of my videos. Getting the little extra you need has to come from Unobtania or Unobtainium. Ha, even if the Unobtainium is a Lenz free coil. There has to be an answer somewhere once you get that close. Good talking to you guys.
John Hav.
Hello John,
I spent hours with your videos admiring your handiwork and the machinery and tools you seem to have (both mechanical and electronic).
For me the strange motors and circuits are a form of art comparable to sculptures and paintings. The OU aspect is only a goal, like perfection, which can never be reached.
And with YouTube and various forums on the internet, ideas travel quickly around the world.
Greetings, Conrad
DadHav's circuit with a MOSFET:
I could make it work with a MOSFET, but the result is pretty strange if not stupid. See the attached circuit.
The green LED has a forward Voltage of 19. to 2.1 Volt, and just that is necessary to make it work. It does not work with a white LED and not with a red LED, but starts to work a little with a yellow LED.
I guess the answer is a 2 Volt Zener diode and some other resistor arrangement. And I admit that I do not understand this circuit.
To all the electronics wizards: any ideas?
In case the Gate of the MOSFET is bound to GND with a 100 K resistor and the 2N3906 just switches the LED (10 K resistor removed), one sees that the 2N3906 is very sensitive and switches on/off with a slight movement of the magnet near the coil. The difficulty is to connect the Collector of the 2N3906 in a way to the Gate of the MOSFET which allows switching. Many things I tried (specially the obvious ones) lead to a stuck MOSFET and a stuck 2N3906 (both are initially off, but then stay continuously on after a slight movement of the magnet near the coil).
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad,
I am back from travelling. Just read through the posts from last week and this week.
Referring to your test circuit here http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363634/#msg363634 (http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363634/#msg363634) it is strange that current draw increases a little when the electrolytic capacitor is charging via the feedback diode 1N5711 because the reed switch is OFF when this charging is happening, right? It seems as if the AC impedance of the 100 uF capacitor appeared in parallel with the coils as an additional load, in spite of the fact that the diode represents a reverse direction to the supply voltage when the reed is ON and this reverse direction would normally isolate the loading effect of the 100 uF capacitor during the On times of the reed switch. I do not mean your 1N5711 diode has had more leakage current than 200 nA at 50V reverse voltage from data sheet of course, I assume it was ok. I notice though when you used a white LED as the feedback diode instead of the 1N5711 that a white LED has a reverse breakdown voltage anywhere between 6 to 8 Volts (type dependent) so an isolation in that case may have not been fully insured. But anyway, with the 1N5711 diode you found an increase in current draw and a decrease in RPM and these are strange I cannot explain.
Referring to your MOSFET version test circuit above. The reason that above the 2.1V magic threshold voltage both transistors are stuck (i.e. both transistors saturate) is that the DC feedback via the 100 kOhm from the drain of the MOSFET to the base of bipolar transistor is able to become too much and this excess feedback current keeps both transistors ON.
I mean when the MOSFET switches ON first (due to the induction from the magnets) and the DC voltage drop across the DC resistance of the coil(s) happens to be already enough as a bias voltage to keep the pnp transistor ON via the 100 kOhm, then there is nothing to bring back the DC bias OFF situation for the pnp transistor. The pnp transistor will have a collactor current, this will maintain a 'perpetual' DC bias voltage level between the gate and source of the MOSFET, so drain current stays also ON.
You nicely found the narrow voltage level gap your circuit is able to operate, this starts from just below 2V (1.9V as you found) and goes up to about 2.1V. The lower limit 1.9V comes from the MOSFET's threshold gate-source voltage (Vth) below which no drain current can flow, and the upper limit 2.1V comes from the coil(s) DC resistance because at higher than 2.1V DC gate-source bias voltage the drain current seems to be causing just enough DC voltage drop across the coil(s) to keep the pnp transistor permanently ON (via the 100 kOhm), hence the DC feedback loop closes permanently and both transistors saturate, the induced AC cannot influence collector and hence drain current any more.
What could be a remedy here? Maybe use an Si diode or two in series with the 100 kOhm where it connects to the base of the pnp transistor, just unconnect the resistor and insert the series diode(s) to complete the feedback path again. This way the 0.6V bias voltage for the pnp becomes shifted up to 1.2V (or 1.8V with two series diodes) and this way you may defeat the biasing effect of the DC voltage drop of the coil(s). I believe the induced AC voltage by the magnets will still have the needed triggering effect (unfortunately the series diode(s) also reduce the AC voltages but maybe not so much as to be useless for controlling the motor).
Greetings, Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on June 29, 2013, 06:57:30 AM
1) Referring to your test circuit here http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363634/#msg363634 (http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363634/#msg363634) it is strange that current draw increases a little when the electrolytic capacitor is charging via the feedback diode 1N5711 because the reed switch is OFF when this charging is happening, right?
2) What could be a remedy here? Maybe use an Si diode or two in series with the 100 kOhm where it connects to the base of the pnp transistor, just unconnect the resistor and insert the series diode(s) to complete the feedback path again. This way the 0.6V bias voltage for the pnp becomes shifted up to 1.2V (or 1.8V with two series diodes) and this way you may defeat the biasing effect of the DC voltage drop of the coil(s). I believe the induced AC voltage by the magnets will still have the needed triggering effect (unfortunately the series diode(s) also reduce the AC voltages but maybe not so much as to be useless for controlling the motor).
@Gyula:
Thank you for looking at my tests. You seem to be the only one who is still interested, the crowd has moved on. May be people come back once Lasersaber posts a new 3D printed motor.
Ad 1) Whenever I did experiments with a high DC resistance drive coil in a pulse motor (which means low power draw), I observed that a feed back LED or diode over the coil caused about 10% more power draw. I think one does not see that with a 10 Ohm DC resistance coil and a power draw of several Watt. It only becomes visible (measurable) at an overall power draw of 100 mW or lower.
Ad 2) I wonder why Dad Hav's circuit works at all. See for instance the circuit at http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363823/#msg363823 (http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363823/#msg363823) and the 2.2 nF capacitor I needed to make it work nicely (Lidmotor's transistor choice). And I could not make it work with a BC549 and BC547. It is always strange if one needs a very particular transistor, it should work with many different transistors (e.g. general purpose transistors). I could not yet try the MPSA56 and MPSA06 but I will.
I would like to make Dad Hav's circuit work (without any additional sensor, like Reed switch or Hall sensor or trigger coil) with a MOSFET to be able to run bigger pulse motors at 20 or even 100 Watt. It is also an exercise in circuit development which I want to pass successfully. If I can do that I might understand this circuit better. And my little ring magnet spinners look really neat and clean just with one coil, nice items to show off. Further I would like to build a "ball magnet spinner" just with one coil (and then a generator coil) as is discussed in this thread http://www.overunity.com/13576/tragic-accident-with-ball-magnet-emdr-motor-generator/#.Uc8L6CnmTIU (http://www.overunity.com/13576/tragic-accident-with-ball-magnet-emdr-motor-generator/#.Uc8L6CnmTIU) .
I can not do experiments for a week, only read and write occasionally on my cell phone. But your suggestions will be tested.
Greetings, Conrad
Gyula has done a good job of explaining
how the circuit (http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/dlattach/attach/125257/image//) locks up when initially
stimulated with a pulse.
To overcome the lockup there are a few
things which could be tried:
(1) Re-connect the 100K resistor which
is presently attached from the base of the
PNP transistor to the drain of the MOSFET
from the base of the transistor to its emitter.
Then install a capacitor from the base of the
transistor to the drain of the MOSFET where
the 100K resistor had been previously attached.
It may take some trial and error to determine
the best value of capacitance in the feedback
loop.
(2) To enhance MOSFET switching the 10K
resistor presently in the Gate input could
be removed and replaced with a much smaller
resistor or possibly even just a wire.
(3) The 100k resistor presently attached to
the MOSFET from Gate to Source could be
reduced to 10K, again to enhance MOSFET
switching.
(4) Use an LED in the circuit with the highest
forward voltage (or two or more LEDs in series)
such that it/they just faintly illuminate/s when
the circuit is operating to avoid depriving the
MOSFET of adequate drive signal.
Hi Conrad,
Re 1)
I would be curious to know whether you have an explanation on the increase on power draw and on the simultaneous rpm decrease when the feedback diode is used (at the some ten mW input power levels or less) to utilize the energy of the collapsing field. I also thought of a possible 'masking' effect of the low impedance coils at higher power levels to notice any increase in power draw but my common sense tended to rule out this possibility because the presence of the diode and its associated circuit components must be 'invisible' power-draw-wise to the input supply source. I also thought that with high impedance coils, especially when they are in series to have an even higher impedance (both AC and DC wise), any circuit component placed in parallel with them may reduce their high impedance and "predestinate" the drag but again my common sense says that the switch is OFF (i.e. input power is cut to the coils) when the collapsing field is utilized so no increase in input power draw ought to be sensed. The decrease in rpm may involve a different explanation: the just interrupted current in the coil(s) is maintained by the diode (and by its associated components) till the collapsing field fully diminishes and this makes sense to me to be able to influence the original rpm of the rotor.
Re 2)
How the DadHav circuit works (you wonder why it works at all)? Well, let's consider first the pnp - npn bipolar transistor circuit with MPS-A56, -A06 types). These both types have a minimum DC current gain (hFE) of 100 and not higher than 150 (from data sheet). This means their current gain is relatively well defined so it is easier to replicate most circuits with these types.
Basically the DadHav circuit is a DC coupled switching circuit but it can only operate with AC pulses injected either via the coils by induction or by injecting pulses into the base of the pnp transistor (via say a coupling capacitor).
Notice that without any AC input, there can be no DC current flowing via the transistors when you apply supply voltage because none of the transistors can receive any DC forward bias at its base (putting this otherwise: both transistors are in Class C mode of operation without any DC bias).
The moment an AC pulse is induced in the coil(s) with a polarity that is able to bias the pnp transistor into conduction via the 100 kOhm, the npn transistor will also conduct because a bias current is injected into its base from the supply voltage via the pnp transistor and the other 100 kOhm, hence the coils can operate as electromagnets. When the inducing magnet passes the coil(s), the circuit should finish operation (if it has correct component values of course, see below) because in the lack of any AC input pulse, the lack of any DC bias prevails again.
Obviously there can be "issues" with the operation as follows: if the induction somehow can induce a prolonged AC bias into the pnp base (say the magnets are too strong or too close to the coils etc) then the electromagnets' ON time may become spuriously controlled, this is what I think you solved with using the 2.2 nF capacitor, effectively reducing the induced AC amplitude by forming a (lowpass) integrating filter with the series 100 kOhm base resistor.
The next "issue" with this circuit is the DC resistance of the coils if the resistances are relatively high: if the npn transistor is able to drive a certain current via the coils which current causes a high enough DC voltage drop across the coils, then this voltage drop may be able to insure a continuous DC bias to the pnp transistor via the 100 kOhm, meaning the pnp cannot switch off: so both transistors remain in ON state, regardless of any further magnet inductions. To put this process simpler: the moment the npn transistor saturates it biases the pnp transistor via the 100 kOhm and this state remains because the pnp will keep the npn in ON state too: a locked situation. Consider this in you MOSFET circuit version, the same problem may occur when the MOSFET is fully ON.
I believe that these "issues" could be remedied by using a variable resistor across the base-emitter of the pnp transistor, say a 100 kOhm potmeter first and see its effect when adjusting its value. I believe even the 2.2 nF could be removed and still get a correct ON pulse. A second 100 kOhm potmeter placed between the base and emitter of the npn transistor may also help for fine adjusting or when the first 100 kOhm potmeter at the pnp may need a too low kOhm setting and this would attenuate also the AC trigger pulse to the base of the pnp.
Now you can understand that in case the transistors have a high DC current gain, the chance for collector-emitter saturation is higher: thus the operation of the circuit may become also problematic as you found with the BC547-549 types, these may have a hFE of 300 to 700 so the 100 kOhm resistors may have to be increased to some hundred kOhm or even to 1 - 4.7 MegaOhm values to get a better chance for correct operation.
These latter transistor types (you also refer to in your above post) recall your test with the Ossi motor 1 reed 2 transistor circuit:
http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363434/#msg363434 (http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363434/#msg363434) and I mention this because both transistor types are npn and none of them is pnp. If you simply mistyped the names in the schematic or in your above post that is okay but if you really used two npn types then it may explain why the circuit was willing to operate from 12V supply voltage and at higher voltages only: one of the npn transistors got a reverse bias and behaved as a 12V Zener to block any input current below 12V? (base-emitter junctions behave as Zener diodes in reverse biased condition) Sorry for mentioning this, I do not assume you used two npn types but only mistyped the names. (originally BC238-BC558 npn-pnp types were used in the video.)
Sorry for this long post, I hope it serves you and others fully understand the operation of DadHav's circuit.
Greetings, Gyula
PS Re SeaMonkey's suggestions I can agree with his 1st suggestion to reconnect the 100 kOhm resistor from the drain of the MOSFET to the emitter of the pnp i.e. if I understand well: connect the 100 kOhm between the base and the emitter of the pnp and use a suitable capacitor to couple the AC induction from the drain of the MOSFET to the pnp base, this way the DC coupling is eliminated to the base of the pnp from the drain, preventing the possibility of the locks up situation. Regarding his other suggestions the result is doubtful because you (Conrad) described your findings with tinkering with those resistors and found the best values empirically for this particular circuit. (unless you make the change mentioned in the 1st point by SeaMonkey.)
@SeaMonkey: Thank you for the suggestions I will try them.
@Gyula: Thank you for the explanations, that helps a lot.
You are right I made a very stupid error, I thought the BC549 is a PNP transistor. What would be a good complementary pnp type for the BC547 or the BC 549?
It is very akward to use my cell phone for the Internet, will be back next week.
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad,
To err is human. At least one puzzle is solved (the needed higher than 12V supply voltage).
The complementary pnp types for the npn BC547-549 are the BC557-559, data sheet is here:
http://www.play.com.br/datasheet/BC557.pdf (http://www.play.com.br/datasheet/BC557.pdf)
Good pnp types are also the BC327 or BC328, these are also selected by hFE but are not labeled with letters A, B or C but with numbers in the suffix: -16 -25 or -40 like BC327-25 and see data sheet how these groups include the hFE ranges:
http://www.play.com.br/datasheet/BC327.pdf (http://www.play.com.br/datasheet/BC327.pdf) These pnp types have their complement npn types as BC337, BC338 with the same number suffix classifications in hFE.
rgds, Gyula
Had to clear the bench and some of my apartment because of tenting for termites at the other end of the building, so im just getting things all back to normal. What a pain in the butt it all was.
At work a parts and hardware guy comes by once a week. While looking for supplies in his truck, these clips for car door panels caught my eye. Pic below. The other pic is of my wire stand for coil winding and my rotor Im going to use. Its not a needle bearing but these bearings and base are the ones I used graphite in the bearings after cleaning out all the grease. Over 14min rundown from 1200 rpms. Its on YT. 2 vids because they only gave us 10 min back then. ;D
The winding length is short and the outer diameter for winding is the size of a penny. There will be 24 coils for this build. Will be winding the coils using the laser rpm meter in count mode to count the turns of the drill to count the turns. The wire is so fine. I saw a pic of its cross section compared to the cross section of an average hair. The wire is smaller. Not quite half. Building the stator base ring tomorrow.
Working on a rotor and base for the tiny bobbins I had shown earlier, and going ahead with this build first.
Mags
Almost forgot. These will be wound bifi. Imagine each coil has 2 wires wound bifi and 1 wire is labeled at the ends 'A' and the other wire is labeled 'B'.
All 24 'A' wires will be wired successively in series and all the 'B' wires are wired in series, then the 'A' series circuit will be connected in series with the 'B' series circuit.
There is a reason to wire them this way that I think has a pretty cool outcome.
If I wire each bobbins bifi windings in series, where we only have 2 wires for connection with the bobbins coil, and then just connect it in series with the next series bifi coil, and then the next, we will be dividing the input voltage amongst the coils/bobbins as a whole. So we have 24 bifi coils in series and we end up with 2 wires for input(or output ;D ). Lets make it simple. We will provide 24v to the motor. Well we have only 1v across each series bifi on each bobbin. :o Not good. Thats only .5v between adjacent windings! :o :o
But, if we do as I suggest above, by putting all the 'A' wires in series and all the 'B' wires in series, then series 'A' and 'B' we will then have 12v between all adjacent windings throughout, not just .5v . This is a 24 times increase in voltage in the capacitance of adjacent windings. Not a bad gain in the potential of the coils capacitive effects. Just by a trick move in connecting the ends of each bifi. ;) Think about it.
If some people out there have used series bifi in series with other series bifi coils, they may not have gotten to see the full potential of those bifi coils because of voltage division of each series bifi in series with the rest. But 'A' and 'B' doesnt have that problem. ;D I think this 'A' and 'B' way of winding motor coils might be a good thing. Will see. ;)
And the circuit of coils as a whole will be the same resistance either way you do it. But that voltage difference between turns is not minuscule nor marginal. ;) There should be some kind of noticeable difference.
Mags
@Gyula: the transistors you mentioned only cost 4 to 7 Cent, so I will order them.
@Mags: you might recall that Lasersaber's second 3D printed motor has 12 coils NSNS.... and 6 magnets on the rotor.
For your build that would mean 24 coils NSNS.... and 12 magnets on the rotor. Every second coil is connected in reverse. The action on the rotor magnets happens only between N S coils (not between S N coils), one coil pushing the other pulling.
But you might have different ideas?
Greetings, Conrad
Quote from: conradelektro on July 03, 2013, 03:42:22 AM
@Gyula: the transistors you mentioned only cost 4 to 7 Cent, so I will order them.
@Mags: you might recall that Lasersaber's second 3D printed motor has 12 coils NSNS.... and 6 magnets on the rotor.
For your build that would mean 24 coils NSNS.... and 12 magnets on the rotor. Every second coil is connected in reverse. The action on the rotor magnets happens only between N S coils (not between S N coils), one coil pushing the other pulling.
But you might have different ideas?
Greetings, Conrad
Hey Conrad
I realize those things. We can use just as many mags(NSNS) as coils(NSNS) as long as we bias the reed with a mag so it only triggers on every other magnet pass, or the rotor will just bing bong left then right repeatedly. Having more magnets, just as many as there are coils, will provide more drive force than just half the number of mags vs coils. ;)
Mags
Hello Mags, Conrad. Thanks for spending some time on the one coil circuit. I haven't digested everything you wrote yet but I will get to it as soon as I clear up some real life issues. I also haven't read all the posts on the LS motor but notice the 6 north out 12 coil configuration mentioned at the beginning of the thread. LS explains a push pull effect from the configuration. Makes perfect sense, right? After the initial pulse there is then a generated sine wave from the other six coils as the magnet then passes the coils along with something from the coils collapsing right? nsnsns equal poles and magnets etc will produce something allot different as well as a reed switch that doesn't know north from south, No? Bifiler with a transistor would only fire on one pole or half the magnets. Hmm with equal poles and coils as well as bifiler / transistor you mighe have all push or all pull. You could make a mini commutator disk with any small magnet configuration you need to work with the reed switch. Timing would be simple as well. I always wanted to do this for my window motor but never got around to it. Sorry I haven't been able to keep up with what's going on here. I'll try to read up so I can make some sense when I comment. Take care.
John Hav
@Mags: Thumbs up! I especially like the trim fasteners for bobbins. I can't afford a spool of wire and I don't have the tooling here necessary to attain the precision required or I'd be joining you folks in your builds, I love a good pulse motor.
But I'm watching.... so good luck and continue the detailed reports please!
A unipolar latching Hall sensor like the one Sparkfun sells might do the trick. It turns hard ON with one polarity, stays on until it sees the opposite polarity then turns OFF, and has the open collector output so it can emulate the reed switch directly in the circuit. Maybe. They only cost a dollar, why not try one out. And the box that they mail them in is itself pretty neat.
Quote from: TinselKoala on July 03, 2013, 12:22:27 PM
@Mags: Thumbs up! I especially like the trim fasteners for bobbins. I can't afford a spool of wire and I don't have the tooling here necessary to attain the precision required or I'd be joining you folks in your builds, I love a good pulse motor.
But I'm watching.... so good luck and continue the detailed reports please!
Thanks. There are some out there that are oblong, of which he didnt have. I want the right side and the left side of the coils wires to be straight up and down as the magnet passes left and right. The round coils, only a small portion of the coil is perfectly vertical where as the magnet field cuts the windings to induce current. The more the windings are not being cut straight across by the magnetic field, the less that is induced. Like if the wires were wound around the outer perimeter of the rotor where the field is dragged along the length of the wire, current wont be produced in the windings, at least at the output. Like in commercial motors and gens, the field cuts a majority of the wire straight across and the loop backs at the ends of the armature windings that dont get straight crossings of the field or not in the field at all possibly, these areas of the winding are small in comparison to the straight runs through the armature coil as a whole in comparison to round coils. ;) Ill find those clips.
The wire is pretty cheap in my opinion. I think the 6700ft roll LS had shown was about $8. My roll on ebay is 50,000 ft $35 shipped in 3days from Cali to Fl.
Mags
Making my stator ring from 1/4 in plexy. Found these black plastic spacers that Im using to hold the white bobbins. The 'barbed' shaft ends of the white door panel clips(bobbins) will be easier to change out being the inside of the black spacer is smooth. They were a tight fit at first, but as they sit in the spacers for a bit, they become looser, as they were a bit too tight. I dont want to have to apply too much force with these coils with the fine wire.
Going to mount some of the black spacers tonight and finish tomorrow. Then make stands for the stator ring and wind the coils.
These door clips I get 20 for $5 off the hardware truck. In a parts store, they want up to $15 for as little as 2. :o Crazy. Unless you have a supply truck in town, best to order them online if some people want to go this route.
Will be winding single wire coils first, then Ill wind 24 more in bifi to compare. Should still have plenty of wire after both.
Mags
Got all the black spacers mounted. Will be getting more door panel clips when the truck comes by tomorrow. 20 per bag and need 24. Plus another bag for 24 bifi. Start winding coils tomorrow.
Mags
@Mags: Your rotor, ring for the coils and base plate look professionally cut or turned? Did you have them made or do you have the right equipment?
Greetings, Conrad
Beauty.
You could even make a winding set like UFO's asymmetric fantasy mogen.
Just kidding.... that's looking very very nice, I am impressed.
Thanks to advice from Gyula and SeaMonkey, see at
Gyula: http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg364365/#msg364365 (http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg364365/#msg364365)
SeaMonkey: http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg364301/#msg364301 (http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg364301/#msg364301) ,
I could do some more tests with the DadHav circuit.
The new circuit drives the little ring magnet spinner very efficiently (in comparison to all other drive circuits I ever used) but the circuit is very prone to self-oscillations. The value of the capacitor C1 has to be chosen very carefully and also depends on the supply Voltage.
May be the experts have some ideas of how to stop the self-oscillations in a better way (other than with the 10 K resistor in series with the capacitor C1, which seems to be an insufficient way of doing it).
Greetings, Conrad
P.S.: a feedback diode over the coils cuts off nicely the back EMF spikes but slows down the rotation of the ring magnet significantly.
An other variation of DadHav's circuit by sMartcreations2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTP3f63-u3U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTP3f63-u3U)
Greetings, Conrad
I'm curious...do you have any information or help for replicating this device from lasersaber ?
Conrad,
Your scope shots of the MOSFET Drain to
Source signals are quite interesting.
It appears that the MOSFET is not turning
off sharply and remains in the partially
conductive linear region for some amount
of time after turn off is desired. This may
be responsible for its tendency to self
oscillate.
Presently, the MOSFET turn off is accomplished
by discharge of the Gate capacitance through
the 100K resistor connecting Gate to Source.
Reducing the value of this resistance will speed
up turn off and possibly curtail self oscillation.
You may want to try a 10K resistor there and
also a 1K resistor to note differences in circuit
operation with those.
Quote from: SeaMonkey on July 09, 2013, 02:29:39 PM
Conrad,
Your scope shots of the MOSFET Drain to
Source signals are quite interesting.
It appears that the MOSFET is not turning
off sharply and remains in the partially
conductive linear region for some amount
of time after turn off is desired. This may
be responsible for its tendency to self
oscillate.
Presently, the MOSFET turn off is accomplished
by discharge of the Gate capacitance through
the 100K resistor connecting Gate to Source.
Reducing the value of this resistance will speed
up turn off and possibly curtail self oscillation.
You may want to try a 10K resistor there and
also a 1K resistor to note differences in circuit
operation with those.
@SeaMonkey: I tried a 10 K resistor between Gate of the MOSFET and Source.
Scope shots are essentially the same.
Self-oscillation has gone away below 11 Volt but seems to be higher above 11 Volt.
I still need the 10 K resistor in series with C1 to make the circuit work.
The problem seems to be the part: base of 2N3906 - 100 K - positive rail - coils - C1 - 10 K resistor - base of 2N3904.
Why is the 10 K resistor in series with C1 necessary? Note, the coils have a rather high impedance (280 Ohm DC resistance).
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad,
This pnp-npn or rather pnp - N chaneel circuit has an inherent positive feedback via the coupling capacitor (or earlier via the 100 kOhm) from MOSFET's drain to the pnp's base so it can inherently oscillate when both transistors are able to conduct and conditions for oscillation are present.
We can differentiate between AC and DC feedback and DC feedback was killed when you connected a series capacitor between the drain and the base, to break DC current conduction, now there remains to reduce the AC feedback.
You may wish to use a 10 kOhm emitter resistor: just connect the emitter of the pnp to one leg of a 10 kOm and the other leg of this resistor would go to the battery positive. And also use a 10 kOhm between the gate and source instead of the 100 kOhm so that the voltage gain of the pnp stage would be 1 (10/10). Now omit the 10 kOhm in series with the 100 nF and maybe use a 100 kOhm potmeter instead of the other 100 kOhm resistor between the base of the pnp and battery positive, to have some means for further controlling (reducing) the AC gain.
To answer your question why the series 10 kOhm is needed: it influences the AC (and the DC) gain of the circuit (its role is similar to an op-amp amplifier circuit whose output is fedback by a resistor, say R2, to its input and there is a series resistor, say R1, at its input to receive the input drive, so that the ratio of the two resistors, R2/R1 defines the gain of the amplifier stage).
Also, when you increase supply voltage, the voltage gain normally also increases, this explains why oscillation returns above a certain input voltage level where loop gain can become just enough aagain to cause self oscillations.
As SeaMonkey mentioned, the MOSFET remains OFF for too long but this is inherent in this setup because you used the ring magnet spinner setup, this explains the approximatly 50% ON time: poles can change in every half turns. In fact the ON time is less than 50%: perhaps the distances of the coils from the ring magnet are not equal? (I can see the left side coil is closer to the ring or only the angle of the camera makes it look like so?)
rgds, Gyula
Quote from: conradelektro on July 09, 2013, 04:19:05 AM
@Mags: Your rotor, ring for the coils and base plate look professionally cut or turned? Did you have them made or do you have the right equipment?
Greetings, Conrad
Everything is made by me and no special tools really. An older Dewalt jigsaw using laminate blades. A cordless drill and some bits made for plastics and a couple sizes of Unibit. And a dremel tool with an assortment of bits as needed.
The laminate blades come in scroll or straight cut. If you take your time, you can get some amazing cuts with nice edges. If it takes me 1/2 hour to cut 15in rotor from 1/2in plexi then Im happy. And I have it now. ;) Well, in 30 min. ;D Then with some sand paper finish the edges and Im good. The laminate blades do well with not melting most plastics.
When I have to make a rotor, I make the piece larger than my rotor size and find center then drill to size. If the material is thicker than 1/4 in then I find center on both sides and drill pilot holes half way through then finish of each side with Unibit to fit hobby shop bearings. This helps to keep your hole straight when drilling by hand or you might get a wobbly rotor because the top and bottom bearings are not always dead center if you didnt hold the drill perfectly straight just drilling all the way through from one side. Then I mount the piece to the bearings then on the base to check level. Then having a mark for the outer diameter I spin the rotor and mark the circle to be cut. The reason I do this at times is if I cut the outside precisely, if that center hole isnt dead nuts, all that time fine cutting the outer diameter was wasted. From there if trying to sand or cut to correct, the dia will be smaller than what I originally wanted.
I use superglues with great success, but I dont trust it for everything.Light sanding and clean of the surfaces helps a great deal for longevity. Sometimes Ill use superglue just to fix a piece in place and then apply either marine goop or epoxy. Goop and superglue are my favorites. There is a superglue called ' Wonderlock em Tite Chairs" It has a couple fine nozzels and it is the thinnest superglue Ive experienced. A tiny bit can be applied and cures quickly. Pvc board loves superglue. The bond is almost always stronger than the material itself. Excellent building material. ;) I like to work with plexi a lot also.
Mags
Quote from: TinselKoala on July 09, 2013, 06:55:11 AM
Beauty.
You could even make a winding set like UFO's asymmetric fantasy mogen.
Just kidding.... that's looking very very nice, I am impressed.
Thanks. Ats what I do. ;) Speaking of UFO, remember the thread where we talked about Farady paradox, Nmachine stuff? Well Im going to incorporate one of the ideas I presented back then into the rotor.
The magnets will be in the edge of the rotor facing out. Im going to cut slots in line with the mag holes, inward from the outer diameter just about a 1/8 in deeper than the magnets. Before I insert the magnets im going to wind the 42 awg zigzag in the slots around the rotor. Like I start under the rotor in one slot then over to the next slot and down. the mags will be NSNS so as the rotor spins the N induce current up and the S induces a current down, all using the back sides of the mags. Im just going to wind till im tires of winding or that its all I can fit. The connect to leds or something. Possibly even a couple slip rings with light brushes to see if any voltage can be measured. If it works, it should work without the stator ring if I can get it up to speed, what ever that is. I figure wile I have the idea in my head, just incorporate it here.
If the rotor winding does produce current with the magnets and rotor coil in motion, but the mags and coil are solid with each other, heck, it might be just what we are looking for here at this wonderful site. A solid rotor that develops its own power when spun could have its output directed toward motor action with some stator mags and some reeds. Will see what happens.
Mags
Quote from: forest on July 09, 2013, 01:19:56 PM
I'm curious...do you have any information or help for replicating this device from lasersaber ?
Hey Forest
Laserhacker.com
There is a forum there for the 'EZ Motor"
Laser uses a 3D printer to make just about everything other than the wire, magnets and the needle rotor shaft with jewel as bearing. If the thing can be printed cheaply the rest is 6 magnets, about 15 bucks in wire and what ever the needle and jewels cost. he has a list of sources in the thread. ;) With 3D printer file for download, in case the is a 3D printer shop in town or if someone has a printer.
Im doing my own version with more coils and magnets. Also my coils are thin from front to back. I think with air core particularly, the field is weaker further away from the magnet for generators, so I want most all the wire in the coil being affected to be be in the same field strength as the rest. So the longer or deeper the coil, the windings further from the rotor will experience less field density than the windings closer to the magnets. With cores, such as seen in commercial motors and gens, the fields are controlled as to where they go, where they 'snap' when 'cutting' windings. ;) ;) ;) So I believe for air cores, the length of the coil for motors doesnt mater that much, but for gen, the shallower the better. Here with Lasers motor, it is motor and gen with same timing. As its running if you give the rotor a bit of a speedup by hand or blow air, the cap voltage rises to the speed the rotor is spinning, and will then be running at that voltage/speed. Very cool little motor. ;)
Mags
@Gyula: Thank you for your suggestions and remarks. I will incorporate your teachings in my further tests of this circuit. My goal is to have a circuit that drives a pulse motor reliably and efficiently without any sensor. In principle we already have such a circuit (from DadHav), it just needs refinement.
The DadHav circuit for my "Lasersaber 3D printed motor replication" is still working und runs the motor for weeks on a 1.5 V battery, see http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363823/#msg363823 (http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg363823/#msg363823). A new version (with 1600 Ohm DC resistance coils) is held up by my experiments with the DadHav circuit, which captured my attention.
I ordered some more PNP and NPN transistor pairs for further tests. For very low power and low Voltage applications I will try BC557/BC547, BC327/BC337, 2N3906/2N3904, MPSA56/MPSA06 and for higher power and higher Voltage motors a PNP transistor with a MOSFET. Also MPSA92,93,94 / MPSA42,43,44 look interesting for up to 400 Volt (to resist high Voltage spikes from the drive coil). All these transistors are not expensive.
@Mags: Thank you for explaining your work methods. I am amazed what you can do with such simple tools. And it encourages me to try myself. I am following your build with great interest. So few really build something.
Greetings, Conrad
Quote from: gyulasun on July 09, 2013, 06:33:28 PM
Hi Conrad,
.........
You may wish to use a 10 kOhm emitter resistor: just connect the emitter of the pnp to one leg of a 10 kOm and the other leg of this resistor would go to the battery positive. And also use a 10 kOhm between the gate and source instead of the 100 kOhm so that the voltage gain of the pnp stage would be 1 (10/10). Now omit the 10 kOhm in series with the 100 nF and maybe use a 100 kOhm potmeter instead of the other 100 kOhm resistor between the base of the pnp and battery positive, to have some means for further controlling (reducing) the AC gain.
To answer your question why the series 10 kOhm is needed: it influences the AC (and the DC) gain of the circuit (its role is similar to an op-amp amplifier circuit whose output is fedback by a resistor, say R2, to its input and there is a series resistor, say R1, at its input to receive the input drive, so that the ratio of the two resistors, R2/R1 defines the gain of the amplifier stage).
Also, when you increase supply voltage, the voltage gain normally also increases, this explains why oscillation returns above a certain input voltage level where loop gain can become just enough aagain to cause self oscillations.
........
rgds, Gyula
Progress, I am talking about an improvement of this circuit (PNP and MOSFET pulse motor drive circuit without sensor):
http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg365075/#msg365075 (http://www.overunity.com/13523/has-anyone-seen-lasersabers-new-motor-runs-on-1000uf-cap/msg365075/#msg365075)
@Gyula; you gave exactly the right advice.
I am referring to the attached circuit:
R4 (between emitter of 2N3906 and positive rail) seems to stop self-oscillation. 1 K is a good value, 10 K is too high (changing R3 does not help).
R2 (between capacitor C1 and base of 2N3906) is very critical, needs to be 20 K, but should be higher for more than 10 V supply Voltage.
R1 and R3 (pull up / pull down resistors) seem to be good at 100 K, changing them has only decremental effects.
The following seems to be the right procedure to come up with a reliable and efficient circuit:
1) roughly define the supply Voltage (e.g. 7 V to 10 V, or 12 V to 15 V)
2) adjust R2 from 20 K to 200 K to find best efficiency
3) adjust R4 around 1 K (probably not necessary, 1 K will do the job of stopping self oscillation)
Will do further tests, but the critical components for a "PNP and MOSFET pulse motor drive circuit without sensor" are identified (R4 = 1 K, R2 from 20 K to 200 K depending on supply Voltage).
C1 = 100 nF and R1 = R3 = 100 K seem to be good values.
Greetings, Conrad
P.S.: At supply Voltages higher than 15 V the Gate of the MOSFET has to be prevented from going higher than 15 V!
Hi Conrad,
I am pleased the circuit has improved in practice, I do think your findings on the interactions and influence of R2 and R4 onto the operation are fully correct. Do you also see cleaner switching waveforms at the drain? (albeit this may change whether you use a ring magnet for the rotor or say several rotor magnets on a disk, either with identical or alternating magnetic poles to initiate triggering, even cleaner switching waveforms may become possible in the latter case I suppose)
This morning I was lurking at another forum and noticed a schematic I totally forgot about and it exactly shows a MOSFET switch with a pnp transistor, drawn and tested by JoeFR (also tested by Romero). See the schematic here:
http://www.underservice.org/index.php?topic=3.msg584#msg584 (http://www.underservice.org/index.php?topic=3.msg584#msg584) (click on the schematic to blow it up)
JoeFR showed scopeshots on the waveforms two posts down wrt the post the link points to. He compared the performance to a pnp - npn switch shown earlier by Romero, this latter is here: http://www.underservice.org/index.php?topic=3.msg579#msg579 (http://www.underservice.org/index.php?topic=3.msg579#msg579)
A piece of advice from JoeFR on the tuning of the MOSFET-pnp circuit: http://www.underservice.org/index.php?topic=3.msg590#msg590 (http://www.underservice.org/index.php?topic=3.msg590#msg590)
Now that I have seen and recalled the JoeFR schematic (which evolved out from Romero's findings of a pnp-npn circuit to get rid of Hall or reed switches as sensor elements) I think it would be worth testing by you too. I suspect the drive coil (L1) in his test has a low impedance because the spikes are in the some hundred Volts range and it must involve much higher coil current when the MOSFET is ON. This lower coil impedance also means the circuit is less prone to self oscillations (versus high impedance coil(s) you use). I do not know whether JoeFR has tested lower value coupling capacitors for C1 (shown as 2.2uF versus your 100nF or 200nF). Diode D2 clamps the positive base-emitter AC peaks coming from the coil (either by induction or by spikes), effectively saving the base-emitter junction from overloading in the reverse voltage direction.
EDIT: just found JoeFR's video on his MOSFET-pnp switching circuit, see this post here:
http://www.overunity.com/3842/muller-dynamo/msg306283/#msg306283
Greetings, Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on July 11, 2013, 11:50:09 AM
.......
A) This morning I was lurking at another forum and noticed a schematic I totally forgot about and it exactly shows a MOSFET switch with a pnp transistor, drawn and tested by JoeFR (also tested by Romero). See the schematic here:
http://www.underservice.org/index.php?topic=3.msg584#msg584 (http://www.underservice.org/index.php?topic=3.msg584#msg584) (click on the schematic to blow it up)
JoeFR showed scopeshots on the waveforms two posts down wrt the post the link points to. He compared the performance to a pnp - npn switch shown earlier by Romero, this latter is here: http://www.underservice.org/index.php?topic=3.msg579#msg579 (http://www.underservice.org/index.php?topic=3.msg579#msg579)
A piece of advice from JoeFR on the tuning of the MOSFET-pnp circuit: http://www.underservice.org/index.php?topic=3.msg590#msg590 (http://www.underservice.org/index.php?topic=3.msg590#msg590)
B) Now that I have seen and recalled the JoeFR schematic (which evolved out from Romero's findings of a pnp-npn circuit to get rid of Hall or reed switches as sensor elements) I think it would be worth testing by you too. I suspect the drive coil (L1) in his test has a low impedance because the spikes are in the some hundred Volts range and it must involve much higher coil current when the MOSFET is ON. This lower coil impedance also means the circuit is less prone to self oscillations (versus high impedance coil(s) you use). I do not know whether JoeFR has tested lower value coupling capacitors for C1 (shown as 2.2uF versus your 100nF or 200nF). Diode D2 clamps the positive base-emitter AC peaks coming from the coil (either by induction or by spikes), effectively saving the base-emitter junction from overloading in the reverse voltage direction.
.......
@Gyula:
Ad A):
Great find, it helps a lot to see JoeFR's circuit. In principle similar but some more ideas for tuning. The diode from the base of the PNP to the poisitive rail is interesting. May be the diode protects the PNP from a too high Emitter/Base Voltage (V-EBO), which is critical. It is good to see that the circuit works well for a more hefty pulse motor (low DC resistance drive coil).
Ad B) I suspected that the circuit has to be adjusted not only to the supply Voltage but also to the particulars of the drive coil.
The Voltage at the Gate of the MOSFET has to be considered carefully. I destroyed an IRLIZ44N because I forgot that its Gate should not be subjected to more than 16 Volt. I thought it is 20 Volt and the 20 Volt were already too much. To all who experiment with this circuit: buy more transistors, you will need them.
Cleaner switching: the scope shots over Drain /Source of the MOSFET have not changed much. A sign for a good adjustment of the circuit to the supply Voltage seems to be a 50% ON-time of the MOSFET (with my ring magnet spinner and two 280 Ohm coils in parallel). With a too high supply Voltage the ON-time becomes up to 70% and the motor just consumes more but does not turn faster. The ON-time of the MOSFET is tricky, it can also become longer with a too low supply Voltage. I do not yet fully understand this. It is pretty evident that the circuit has to be adjusted to the supply Voltage, I see that clearly.
Greetings, Conrad
I agree with what Gyula has said regarding
your innovative modifications to the circuit.
The circuit has a complication in that the
gate drive to the MOSFET is less than ideal
from the standpoint of controlling switching.
Ideally, the MOSFET should be driven with a
totem-pole type of circuit which has the
ability to both "pull up" and "pull down."
This will assure that the Gate input is
sufficient for a good turn on and also that
the pull-down characteristic will rapidly
discharge the gate capacitance to result
in a speedy turn off.
In case you'd like to try further innovation,
CMOS gates make pretty good MOSFET drivers
since they are totem pole output.
CMOS works over a pretty wide voltage
range from about 3 Volts up to about 15 Volts.
Here is a pic of one of the 24 coils, single wire. 3300 turns till just about full. 649 ohms. 24 coils= 79200 total turns 15.5kohm all in series.
Will make 24 more wound bifi after.
Mags
Hi Mags,
Nice coil, do you have an L meter to measure its inductance?
Gyula
Pretty!
It sounds like you will have a miniature Newman motor, with all that wire and resistance. How did you count the turns while winding?
Does your wire need to be scraped or does the enamel melt away when soldering the wire?
Quote from: gyulasun on July 15, 2013, 06:16:35 AM
Hi Mags,
Nice coil, do you have an L meter to measure its inductance?
Gyula
Got an LCR meter coming, wed or thurs. ;D Im very interested to find out what the inductance is. ;D Can ya tell? ;D ;D ;D
I had looked at meters of the sort for some time. Some are expensive, some are 'scary' cheap. So I went middle of the road. Gunna wind some coils. ;D ;D ;D
Mags
Quote from: TinselKoala on July 15, 2013, 08:09:36 AM
Pretty!
It sounds like you will have a miniature Newman motor, with all that wire and resistance. How did you count the turns while winding?
Does your wire need to be scraped or does the enamel melt away when soldering the wire?
I was thinking the same. In fact, if you remember zeropoint132, his self running no bearing bedini, it may have worked as shown, like Lasersabers motor, give it a spin, it charges the cap quickly and runs for a while on that. It could look like its self running(in the sense that we think of) but it could be just using tiny amounts of power from the charged cap like LS's motor around 1ua. Zeropoint used 4000 turns bifi, 1 wire 30awg and the other 46awg I believe. All wound on 1 bobbin, it just may have had attributes of LS's EZ motor.
My laser rpm meter has a count function. Its one of the more common meters out there, just with a Matco Tools name on it. So I used masking tape to hold the 'on' button and put a piece of reflective tape on the chuck of the cordless drill. I just keep 1 of the black spacers in the drill chuck and just pop in the white bobbins so I dont have to mess with the chuck. The reflective tape needs some help sticking to moving things, of which, those are the things we need it to stick to. lol The Ryobi 18v($69 bucks, nice tool, except wont hold tiny bits) lays down on its side nice with the chuck off the table.
Yes, the wire seems to need something beyond solder to remove the enamel. Im looking for a solvent, one that works quick I hope. Some forums say vinegar, aspirin? Ive got some acetone to try tonight. Got some 2500 sand paper also some 0000 steel wool, just to try some things. I really dont want to bite into the copper much if not at all. If you have any suggestions they would be well appreciated. ;)
Going by the resistance of the coil, it should be around 450ft. Will have to measure 1 foot of this wire to see, but 42awg can range from 1.5 to 1.8ohm per foot. Will measure that in a bit. So 10,000 ft plus with all coils in series.
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on July 15, 2013, 07:48:35 PM
;D Im very interested to find out what the inductance is. ;D Can ya tell? ;D ;D ;D
Hi Mags,
Yes, going by the estimated sizes of the bobbin, your coil may have an inductance between 160 mH to 175 mH... 8) :)
your bobbin ID may be 5 to 6 mm, winding OD may be 16-17 mm, winding length may be 3 to 3.5 mm, you wound 3300 turns, are the bobbin sizes in the 'ballpark'?
Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on July 16, 2013, 06:59:41 AM
Hi Mags,
Yes, going by the estimated sizes of the bobbin, your coil may have an inductance between 160 mH to 175 mH... 8) :)
your bobbin ID may be 5 to 6 mm, winding OD may be 16-17 mm, winding length may be 3 to 3.5 mm, you wound 3300 turns, are the bobbin sizes in the 'ballpark'?
Gyula
Hey Gyula
The ID is 3.4mm OD is 17.6mm depth is 2.7mm
So maybe about 4H with all coils in series I believe. Will be interesting to see what measurements will show. The bifi coils most likely wont read correctly for inductance.
Will see. Thanks ;)
Mags
Sacrificed 1 clip to get the measurement. lol These things aint cheap on the street! ;D Caliper would not fit in the gap to measure ID. I have a lot of extras. ;D
Had seen some nuce clips today that had good depth. They were on a door panel. I cant have those. :'( So many different kinds.
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on July 16, 2013, 08:51:23 PM
Hey Gyula
The ID is 3.4mm OD is 17.6mm depth is 2.7mm
So maybe about 4H with all coils in series I believe. Will be interesting to see what measurements will show. The bifi coils most likely wont read correctly for inductance.
Will see. Thanks ;)
Mags
Hi Mags,
Well, with those bobbin sizes the inductance calculates to about 140 mH (138.7 mH). This is the calculator I have used:
http://www.pronine.ca/multind.htm (http://www.pronine.ca/multind.htm) It asks for an inductance value from the user in advance, so some playing with the numbers is needed.
If we consider the number of turns is 3300 and wire gauge #42 as dependable data, together with the measured bobbin ID 3.4 mm and depth (i.e coil length l) 2.7 mm, then you have to enter 138.7 mH for L to arrive at the 3300 turns. Then the coil OD comes out as 15.77 mm, wire length as 323.44 feet and DC resistance as 536.58 Ohm.
Regarding your coming L meter, the built-in measuring frequency hopefully will be low (less than 100-200 Hz) because a coil may manifest different L values at different frequencies, normally L decreases with increasing frequency, just due to self capacitance and L disappears at a frequency high enough to give a first resonance with self capacitance. This is a good link to measure self capacitance of coils: http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Calculators/Interwire-Coil-Capacitance-Calc.htm (http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Calculators/Interwire-Coil-Capacitance-Calc.htm) may come as helpful for your bifilar coils too.
Sorry to hear you had to sacrifice a bobbin to get to the mechanical sizes, hopefully this has been the biggest loss in this setup. :D
Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on July 17, 2013, 05:22:23 AM
Hi Mags,
Well, with those bobbin sizes the inductance calculates to about 140 mH (138.7 mH). This is the calculator I have used:
http://www.pronine.ca/multind.htm (http://www.pronine.ca/multind.htm) It asks for an inductance value from the user in advance, so some playing with the numbers is needed.
If we consider the number of turns is 3300 and wire gauge #42 as dependable data, together with the measured bobbin ID 3.4 mm and depth (i.e coil length l) 2.7 mm, then you have to enter 138.7 mH for L to arrive at the 3300 turns. Then the coil OD comes out as 15.77 mm, wire length as 323.44 feet and DC resistance as 536.58 Ohm.
Regarding your coming L meter, the built-in measuring frequency hopefully will be low (less than 100-200 Hz) because a coil may manifest different L values at different frequencies, normally L decreases with increasing frequency, just due to self capacitance and L disappears at a frequency high enough to give a first resonance with self capacitance. This is a good link to measure self capacitance of coils: http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Calculators/Interwire-Coil-Capacitance-Calc.htm (http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Calculators/Interwire-Coil-Capacitance-Calc.htm) may come as helpful for your bifilar coils too.
Sorry to hear you had to sacrifice a bobbin to get to the mechanical sizes, hopefully this has been the biggest loss in this setup. :D
Gyula
Thanks Gyula
The meter specs specified freq for capacitance ranges, but not for the inductance ranges. Being that it has ranges for inductance, it probably does use different freq ranges for different selected ranges. I have a couple known inductors I will check it with . The delivery is suppose to be 18th or 19th. Tomorrow or friday.
The dead Kenny bobbin. lol I only made that a joke because these things are expensive at the auto parts stores.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR11.TRC1.A0.Xdoor+panel+clips.TRS0&_nkw=door+panel+clips&_sacat=0&_from=R40
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on July 17, 2013, 07:55:20 PM
...
The meter specs specified freq for capacitance ranges, but not for the inductance ranges. Being that it has ranges for inductance, it probably does use different freq ranges for different selected ranges. I have a couple known inductors I will check it with . The delivery is suppose to be 18th or 19th. Tomorrow or friday.
...
Yes, you can hook up different coils and just use an oscilloscope with 10:1 probe across the coil being measured to check the oscillating frequency (mostly saw-tooth like waveforms). or use a digital frequency meter (there are multimeters with frequency measuring feature too). (Of course, using a probe or a freq meter across a coil being measured will change the displayed inductance a little but not the measuring frequency.)
Gyula
Hey Gyula
Yes I have 2 meters that measure freq. Will do when it gets here tomorrow. Will have it in the morning.
What I really want this lcr meter for is measuring windings on cores of unknown quality/value. I have some projects that have been set aside just for these reasons.
Been working a lot in the last year. Im tired at the end of the day. Been having some breaks in work to get some of these things going again. I havnt put a vid up in a long time. Was doing some custom car audio on the side on top of my regular job. Killing myself slowly. ;D But now I can spend a little on some equipment/tools Ive been meaning to get for some time now.
Mags
Ok, got the meter today. I first tested the coil you calculated the inductance on. It reads 82.6mh in the 200m scale and 83mh in the 2h scale. Not sure if that means much about the accuracy. But it is consistent. ;D
I forgot to stop at my shop to get those known inductors. I moved some stuff there while the apt building was being tented a couple weeks ago. lol, I moved out a lot of stuff. For one, someone seeing my bench area, being the tent people must have the keys, yet are not responsible for anything, in the contract, someone might take seeing all that not just as pulse motors and such. ;) If ya know what I mean. :o ;D Also I have 2 pc's, 2 laptops, stereo, tv's, personal stuff. Ive seen news shots of people breaking into tented houses with gas masks. So, I played it safe. And now for the lol. My nice kitchen broom was gone when I got back. >:( ;D So who knows if I left it all here. ;)
The other functions work well, capacitance and resistance. Resistance down to .01ohm which is always nice. Great for locating the shorted component on the board without a lot of desoldering. At times, it will only bring you close to the shorted part. My old Soundstream ref 705 had a short on the 15v rail for preamp and crossover circuitry. These lines go all across the board. But I found the shorted IC, 1 of 10 if I remember correctly, with my old Wavetek 2030. The IC was also looking a bit shinier than the others. I wasnt sure if it was the IC other than the shine, as it could have been a cap near by. But that was it once I desoldered it. It saves a lot of time in those cases. Also some bias resistors in amps are usually .15ohm, even .23 or .27ohm. Now you can measure that accuracy confidently.
I checked the freq with a couple inductors that I have here. On the same scale, the freq changes with different inductors, also the same freq on most of the middle(4 of 6) ranges, but different freq in the 200uh and the 20h scales, all with the same 2 inductors just to see. So there is no one freq I can give you for the inductance. So maybe the meter puts a cap across the coil and sweeps for peaks.
The capacitance freq is 400hz for 200pf to 2uf. 80 hz for 20uf to 200uf and 10hz for 2000uf range
I checked the 200uh scale and it goes down to .01uh.
The meter is kinda cheap in comparison to what I have in dvms. The instructions are very basic. But it seems to work. Ill get those inductors tomorrow. They are car audio crossover parts.
Mags
Hi Mags,
Well, the measured value of 82.6 mH is rather far from my calculated value of 138.7 mH so something is wrong... :-\
Using another on-line multilayer coil calculator with the 82.6 mH and your bobbin sizes, the number of turns comes out as 3391 and DC resistance as 648.03 Ohm, the small problem is coil OD comes out as 22 mm (2*9.4+3.4=22.2). Here is the other calculator link:
http://coil32.narod.ru/calc/multi_layer-en.html and it uses Maxwell equations and elliptic integrals, and considers both bare wire diameter and insulated wire diameter (I used 0.0682 mm bare and 0.085 mm for insulated wire sizes). Unfortunately, a micrometer is needed to check the actual wire diameter, caliper is not enough.
Here is a link to an LC meter which may use similar circuit whereby the oscillator frequency changes as per the unknown coil inductance dictates: http://my.integritynet.com.au/purdic/lc-meter-project.htm#circuit-osc
I have seen LC meters with fixed frequencies where the frequency was derived from the clock of a microcontroller (or microprocessor) and it was a fix value within a measurement range. Higher end LC meters use a switchable low (100Hz-1000Hz) and a high frequency (10kHz-1MHz) value to cover very wide measurement ranges and also to have a better resolution.
I wonder what measuring frequencies you found with the L ranges approximately (it is okay it changes by the coils). Curious also about the type or make if you do not mind.
Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on July 20, 2013, 01:34:34 PM
Hi Mags,
Well, the measured value of 82.6 mH is rather far from my calculated value of 138.7 mH so something is wrong... :-\
Using another on-line multilayer coil calculator with the 82.6 mH and your bobbin sizes, the number of turns comes out as 3391 and DC resistance as 648.03 Ohm, the small problem is coil OD comes out as 22 mm (2*9.4+3.4=22.2). Here is the other calculator link:
http://coil32.narod.ru/calc/multi_layer-en.html (http://coil32.narod.ru/calc/multi_layer-en.html) and it uses Maxwell equations and elliptic integrals, and considers both bare wire diameter and insulated wire diameter (I used 0.0682 mm bare and 0.085 mm for insulated wire sizes). Unfortunately, a micrometer is needed to check the actual wire diameter, caliper is not enough.
Here is a link to an LC meter which may use similar circuit whereby the oscillator frequency changes as per the unknown coil inductance dictates: http://my.integritynet.com.au/purdic/lc-meter-project.htm#circuit-osc (http://my.integritynet.com.au/purdic/lc-meter-project.htm#circuit-osc)
I have seen LC meters with fixed frequencies where the frequency was derived from the clock of a microcontroller (or microprocessor) and it was a fix value within a measurement range. Higher end LC meters use a switchable low (100Hz-1000Hz) and a high frequency (10kHz-1MHz) value to cover very wide measurement ranges and also to have a better resolution.
I wonder what measuring frequencies you found with the L ranges approximately (it is okay it changes by the coils). Curious also about the type or make if you do not mind.
Gyula
Hey Gyula
DY-4070g
http://www.dyinstrument.com/duoyi/?q=LCR_meter/DY4070G/DY6243G/DY6013G
It was $70. There are some out there for $18. After playing with it more Im growing to like it. And would recommend it so far. ;D Much better can be had for twice as much or more. But this seems to do ok for our purposes.
Well your new calculation is just about there at 82.6mh. The number of turns is 3300 and yours shows 3391 and the resistance is near spot on. ;) Thanks for looking into that. There may be differences in thickness of insulation to factor in. Also maybe subtract a fraction of a mm in outer dia due to the windings dont come out level with the bobbin diameter. Anyways, very close. ;D
I made this bifi coil with 26awg a couple weeks ago. Testing it I found very interesting results.
Measuring 1 of the 2 conductors measures 7mh. Same with the other. When I put them in parallel it measures 7mh. ??? I wonder if one of those windings were say fishing line, non inductive, would the single winding still read 7mh? Like does the simple presence of the other non connected winding affect the result of measuring the other alone.
Then in series it measures 27mh. Its bifi, so may not be correct.
Tested it multiple times to be sure.
Ok I think I get what your saying on the freq of the meter. I measured the freq without an inductor connected.
200uh scale 786hz
2m 20m 200m 2h 217hz
20h for some reason reads 222hz
Mags
Here is a pic of the test leads shorted in uh scale. I made a mistake in my last post. .1uh not .01uh ;D
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on July 20, 2013, 03:12:01 PM
...
I made this bifi coil with 26awg a couple weeks ago. Testing it I found very interesting results.
Measuring 1 of the 2 conductors measures 7mh. Same with the other. When I put them in parallel it measures 7mh. ??? I wonder if one of those windings were say fishing line, non inductive, would the single winding still read 7mh? Like does the simple presence of the other non connected winding affect the result of measuring the other alone.
Then in series it measures 27mh. Its bifi, so may not be correct.
Tested it multiple times to be sure.
Ok I think I get what your saying on the freq of the meter. I measured the freq without an inductor connected.
200uh scale 786hz
2m 20m 200m 2h 217hz
20h for some reason reads 222hz
Mags
Hi Mags,
Nice instrument you bought, thanks for showing it, my curiosity is satisfied... :D ;D :D
On your bifilar coil, you wrote: "When I put them in parallel it measures 7mh. ??? " If you mean you connect the two start wires together and also the end wires together and you measure 7 mH, then it is CORRECT. Why? Because all you have done you increased the cross section area of the wires by paralleling them: the same effect as if you were wound the coil with an equivalent thicker SINGLE wire, ok?
And yes if one of those windings were from fishing line, the other single winding would still read 7 mH. The simple presence of the other non connected winding normally does not affect the result of measuring the other winding alone.
You wrote: "Then in series it measures 27mh. Its bifi, so may not be correct." It is CORRECT. Due to the mutual inductance between the closely spaced parallel wires, the result in such series aiding connection can be 4 times of any of the single coils inductance alone (the 4 times is in theory, in practice I measured 3.7 to 3.9 times or so increase in inductance).
Thanks for the the measuring frequencies in the L ranges, they are good to know, especially when measuring very high inductance coils which normally was not intended for 'high frequency' operation and checking them at a higher than intended frequency by just your meter it may display L values which are not true at a lower frequency.
In your 20 H range you may wish to see the measuring waveform and its frequency by an oscilloscope too, either without any coil and then with a high L coil like a mains transformer's primary.
Gyula
Quote from: Magluvin on July 20, 2013, 03:23:52 PM
Here is a pic of the test leads shorted in uh scale. I made a mistake in my last post. .1uh not .01uh ;D
Mags
Well, normally it should display zero when the input is shorted but this is not a high end instrument. MAybe somewhere inside there is a trimpot to set display to 0.00 when shorting the test leads, otherwise you would have to distract 1.2 uH from a displayed value of say 4 uH (because it displays a negative 1.2 uH). Of course I do not suggest to turn any trimpot inside unless you obtain a service manual if such exists.
Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on July 20, 2013, 04:57:47 PM
Well, normally it should display zero when the input is shorted but this is not a high end instrument. MAybe somewhere inside there is a trimpot to set display to 0.00 when shorting the test leads, otherwise you would have to distract 1.2 uH from a displayed value of say 4 uH (because it displays a negative 1.2 uH). Of course I do not suggest to turn any trimpot inside unless you obtain a service manual if such exists.
Gyula
Well the manual said to put the leads of the device to be measured directly in the terminal holes. I can imagine that with larger inductances, the addition of the test leads, which are short, add a tiny bit. Im just happy to get in the ball park really. ;D
Havnt had time to do much today. Got to get to it in a bit. Making dinner.
Mags
Finally got some time to work on this. Got the rotor drilled out for mags and Im winding a coil on the rotor for other tests I want to do while Im at it. The winding in the pics is the first of 2, and the second winding will have many more turns. Just to have 2 variations to test.
Will be wiring things up this week. Pondering what to use as terminal posts. Have some bare copper wire from Ace Hdwr.
Mags
Gotta Love that guy for pouring out his heart on experiments with motors.
I have many joule ringers.
Maybe I will make this motor? I quess I am to late to see the diagram but will look around for it. 8)
http://laserhacker.com/forum/index.php?topic=155.0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNBi6qoW5SI
;D
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on July 28, 2013, 08:21:37 PM
Finally got some time to work on this. Got the rotor drilled out for mags and Im winding a coil on the rotor for other tests I want to do while Im at it. The winding in the pics is the first of 2, and the second winding will have many more turns. Just to have 2 variations to test.
Will be wiring things up this week. Pondering what to use as terminal posts. Have some bare copper wire from Ace Hdwr.
Mags
Hi Mags,
Nice progress! I believe pieces of thick bare copper wire would serve for terminal posts. Albeit, you may have to use a hefty power soldering iron to do any soldering (or unsoldering) to them.
Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on July 29, 2013, 05:16:46 PM
Hi Mags,
Nice progress! I believe pieces of thick bare copper wire would serve for terminal posts. Albeit, you may have to use a hefty power soldering iron to do any soldering (or unsoldering) to them.
Gyula
Thanks. ;D Yeah, Im going to make some U shape with the copper wire and drill 2 holes in the plexi ring(upward) then a bit of Marine Goop on the bottom. 2 between each coil so I can vary things if I want. Also once I solder the coils leads to one side of the U, I wont have to deal with that any longer and just do hookups on the other sides of the U's. :D
When I wind the second set of coils, bifi, Ill just make another ring and etc. Just swap out the stator rings to test.
The winding on the rotor, this is going to be a test of the Faraday paradox. The magnets will be NSNS and the windings are all UP DOWN UP DOWN accordingly. The windings on the top and bottom should be neutral to the magnets fields(field distortions, concentrations) as they run the direction of rotor motion. Will try an led mounted toward the center of the rotor, and if that doesnt work, Ill make a small set of slip rings for brushes just to see if anything is there. I used the 42awg about 25 turns zig zagging around the rotor. I bounced back the other direction when I hit the beginning to fill in the tops and bottoms. I could have wound each block separately, but, Im me. :o ;D
I had some trouble getting this rotor to level out. My bearings have a flange, but my drilling may have bulged the center hole sides. Block sanded but not as good as I like. My hole on one side was a bit wide for the bearing. So at Ace Hdwr they have fiber washers that fit the bearing nice and tight, while still having some bearing into the rotor material. Then I set the rotor on the post, fiddle a bit till level then thin superglue the fiber washer to the rotor. Now the rotor can be removed off the spindle post without worry. Did a quick spin and mark any high spots on the outer edge of the rotor then sand a bit. Looks good. Nice and balanced. Also found a nylon washer than fits snug on the spindle post to help keep dust out of the graphite treated bearing.
The Spindle post is just an aluminum spacer post that fits the bearing from the hobby shop. Gota keep all these things in mind. But its amazing what you can find locally. The spacers are machined and if screwed down to a level base will most likely be straight up and down. On this plexi base, I used a larger diameter spacer under the spindle post(spacer) to ensure it is level. Its possible the spindle post could be screwed down and cause an impression in the plexy and maybe not all that level. Especially with all the finger motoring, lol manual spinning can cause issues with level of the rotor if the spindle post is not mounted well.
This pic is of the bottom of the rotor with all the lines for magnet positions and cut lines for the windings.
Mags
Came up with a nifty solution for wire terminals. Have some terminal strips that come with Arduino custom boards. ;D
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on August 02, 2013, 12:22:45 AM
Came up with a nifty solution for wire terminals. Have some terminal strips that come with Arduino custom boards. ;D
Hey Mags,
I suspected you turn to some very elegant eye-catching solution for the terminals. :D
Just keep it up.
Gyula
I finally got to finishing my version of Lasers motor. I dont have a lot of time to spend as much as I used to. But its done and it works. Im doing a rundown with a 1000uf cap right now. Started at 35v and has been 22 min and we are down to 15.2v. So it works as described. ;) Thanks Laser. ;D And Im working with graphite treated bearings instead of needle bearings. I was worried a bit cuz I know the needle bearing has virtually no resistance, where I have more Im sure.
I did not even try much timing yet. Got to get to sleep as I didnt get much sleep last night and was dragging at work.
Heres a couple pics. Will do a vid tomorrow.
Mags
Oh, the reed holder is temporary till I get the dual read switch holder/adjuster completed. This one I used plastic tubing and attached the reed to the outside and I have a small neo connected to the end of the clear plexi rod inside the white tube to adjust the lil neo towards the back of the reed to bias it for N pole magnets as I have alternating NSNS on the rotor.
The dual reed concept will have 2 phases where 1 reed fires and when it opens, the coils will dump what ever field collapse current into the other phase cap and vice verse. So 2 individual drive circuits which dump collapse current to each other. Im going to check to see if the is any bemf, as the might not be much due to 15.36kohm total series coil resistance. But still want to do the dual reeds regardless.
Mags
Hi Mags,
Very nice build, hats off! Thanks for showing the results.
Just out of curiosity, I was playing with some numbers in this link http://www.circuits.dk/calculator_capacitor_discharge.htm (http://www.circuits.dk/calculator_capacitor_discharge.htm) where I entered your 35 V as max and your 15.2 V as minimum cap voltages, for ESR I used .03 Ohm (not critical for such calculations at microAmps)) for the 1000 uF capacitor. I found that entering about 22.2 uA as Imax current I got 1320.3 seconds for the resistor load cap discharge. (Your 22 minute long run time was 1320 seconds.)
If I choose the constant current discharge time to be 1320 seconds, then the Imax is 15 uA and the load impedance 2333.3 kOhm
This calculation indicates that your series coils (with the duty cycle defined by the reed on/off and the rpm) represent a 1582.99 kOhm load for the capacitor in the resistive discharge and a 2333.33 kOhm for the constant current discharge.
This load is the series inductive impedance of course and includes the 15.36 kOhm copper resistance, the total coils impedance being also increased by the duty cycle.
So your max current consumption if I am not mistaken much may have been between 15 to 22 uA, you may have a chance to check it, just for curiosity.
Looking forward to the collapsing field's energy capture, hopefully the dual reed contact will be speedy enough not to miss too much from the event under the switchover time. The energy stored in the series coils is given by formula .5*L*I2 and it remains to be seen how much energy you find ( .5*C*U2) as going into the other phase cap from the process.
Gyula
I should have waited till tomorrow. lol Im beat. But I did it anyways. http://youtu.be/QyU0H_kJLxQ
My camera seems to only want to do 10min, 9min, vids then stops. I checked the menu and dont see a setting for that. And its a 4g card that is empty, so its not a mem issue I dont believe.
So I got cut off. ::) Like 4 times and redo. Ugh
Anyways, I got that over with, so future vids can concentrate on running aspects, not the build and parts if im only limited to under 10 min or whatever it is. lol Ill figure it out when Im not so sleepy. ;)
Ok, gota git
Mags
New vid of motor with 160v input
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJZGEiToff0&feature=youtu.be
Mags
test,just wanted a link to back here.