SM said transistors were far too noisy to use for prototyping, so I figured, "let's use tubes, he did say to use them, right?". But, I don't know the first thing about electron tubes!! I've never seen one, let alone use one. Right now I'm looking on TubeDepot.com for some tubes, and I don't know what I'm looking for. Ugh, frustrating! Anyone with some tube experience here? I could really use some help! Thanks!!
Quote from: Super God on July 18, 2007, 06:46:18 PM
SM said transistors were far too noisy to use for prototyping, so I figured, "let's use tubes, he did say to use them, right?". But, I don't know the first thing about electron tubes!! I've never seen one, let alone use one. Right now I'm looking on TubeDepot.com for some tubes, and I don't know what I'm looking for. Ugh, frustrating! Anyone with some tube experience here? I could really use some help! Thanks!!
I think that the majority of people here don't know how to use them either, you are not alone...................
;)
They cost an arm and a leg too, jeez 44.95$ for a tube...wow :o
The 12AT7 looks good for my design, I can use either 6 volts or 12 volts for the heater, I think I'm going with 12 for now. It seems weird using a transistor to switch a tube on and off rapidly. Oh well, in SM we trust :D Heh. I hope these tubes work well.
wouldnt you want to be making a tube oscillator circuit
maybe a VCO ?
i guess you would need 3 of them.
look for some micro-tubes.
they will be small enough to fit in the center of the ring.
Yeah, this one is a dual triode so I figure 5 should be good for mine, I have nine controls instead of three. So 1 tube for every 2 controls seems good.
Wait, how much voltage to you need to pulse the tube with in order to make it conduct?
hello all
in 1 of my last posts i said i was going to use tubes hummmmm
how am i going to use them well i thought a tube freq generator and a tube amp has anyone seen the video from border land sciences i posted a link a while ago wich i saw in another thred it is how i would start using tubes in a tpu type setup i will look for the link and post it when i find it
ist
It would be agood idea to look up tube theory for those who don't know it.
They are virtually the same in function as transistors. There are some very useful differences.
Diodes/rectifiers use the same charts except they will conduct almost any current you apply at almost any level. There is a turn-on point but it can be extremely low. There is a reverse current stoppage also but in both cases there is virtually no wishy-washy turning off and on points
(noise/harmonic generation). You want fast - you got it! Think check vavle.
Gated tubes - triodes and other extensions with grids are analogous to water valves with knobs or transistors.
Basically a tube diode has a cathode and a plate (all have heaters). Think of the plate as the banded end of a 1n2004 and the cathode as the unbanded end.
A triode is the same as the diode but it also has a grid. Think of the grid as the base of a transistor, the cathode as the emitter and the plate as the collector. Tubes require little or no feedback to trigger the input - depends on circuit.
Tetrodes, pentodes, beam tubes, etc, etc, are all variations of the above.
The main difference is that on a SS circuit light comming from your board is a very bad thing. Light comming from a tube circuit is a good thing. There are limits in light and all the other things just like SS.
Another difference is that they are all mini-particle accelerators! If you want to use them as fast switches go for VHF/UHF class tubes. On there turn-on point they are simply ON.
I feel sorry for those who haven't used them. You think you've made smoke? No way! I've burned things down with them!
SM was completely right when he said something like start with tubes to figure it out - why? Because there are fewer extremely fine details to consider during design and they will only conduct what they are capable of. SS blows up instead. Fewer supporting parts also, when done right.
So if I applied a 12 volt DC current to the grid pin it would start conducting over the anode and cathode? No resistor like a transistor would need? If so then yeehaw. I found one that looks good, it was designed for VHF/UHF! So, I may have an easy time finding the right frequencies! Yay. It's two in one, too :)
Thanks!
Tubes may be my new best friend! Nothing to blow out or anything like that, and they aren't small enough for me to lose like a transistor. Sweet. Fast on and off times? YES! I need super fast nano second on and off times :D I need KICKs! Weee.
here is the link i spoke of earlyer
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-721789270445596549
if you watch this i think it is a big part of the tpu and how it works using tubes
ist
doing some more reading and i found thease are the tubes steven says he is using
6BQ7-A tubes
and they seam to be quite common and cheep also who has worked with a phase invertor seams to be a big part of the tpu
ist
I agree on the tubes.
Anyone who does not understand the importance of magnetics or longitudinal waves absolutely MUST view this video.
Thanks innovation_station!
This is the most applicable information I have seen ANYWHERE.
Lee De Forest
I have start 1950 , to work with tubes (In fatger radio-repair-shop
and buid radio- transmitterns , also audio ampliers and all kind of devices. Also done this later pressional.
I know als the wrintings this tubesfrom tesla- car to SM with
his Recrifier Tubes .
I have all kind from this tubes (used , from US-Military electronic
equipments in my stock.
BUT...forget this circuits , it cant work this way
Pese
http://ch.to/tubes
@Pese
Yes. This tube cannot be the one that switches high power to a coil. It is designed for small signals.
But it could be used as the control for a gated rectifier. One with a plate cap. Perhaps those used as TV beam deflection switches for the horizontal deflection transformer?
Jes but als bigtups that work wit 300volt and 0,5 amps,
will not work. The design of cicuits is not know to find FE.
Possible from "NOISE" (great bandwth frequencies?) Tesla-Car?
Altat ist possibel with Tube , canbe done also with semiconductors.
Relais , Sparks and so on.
All FE desings are to find frequencies and harmoiccs of them , than will be ADD other frequencies (and Power) in the designed citcuit (devices) . mechanical , electric , magnetic , caloric , nuclear OR any othe way .
THIS is to find out . After this , it can be examinate if you will
do this with tubes or other way,
Only to think, old "exotic" devices , can possibly "bring" Overunity ... IS THE WRONG WAY
G.Pese
about old things steven said it would be much easyer to get the thing to work using tubes also in the vid link i posted when they sweep the freq you will notice there is a verry tight window for the freq to make the coil ringg also when the signal gets to the other end of the coil it flips phase with the meter then is sent back through with the next pluse and so on
so if there was a tube sending siginal and another tube phase inverting the siginal at the end of the coil well if the tubes were the ones they spoke of in the video then each time a pluse came throught to the tube it will kock more electrons off in side the tube with each pluse so the electricty will grow with each pluse
well
also steven said lamp wire for the collectors works best he also said 3 collectors stacked all have control winds on them in 3 or more segements now if we apply this to the tpu we might have some luck
ok in the vid remember how the magnetic feilds increase near the end of the coil and the caps are the oppsite so what if
collector 1 has 3 coils on it and 3 caps and the mag feild goes like this coil1 weak coil 2 stronger coil 3 strongest then the next layer goes the same only turned by 120 deg and the same with the top layer out of phase by 120 deg each layer
so what i am saying is this
pluse collector 1 then 2 then 3 and you are passing a verry strong mag feild all around the collectors
steven said that we will need several hundred thousand kicks per second to combine all togather at the same freq to make a big usable kick or output power
1 more thing steven said
IT WAS NOT DIFFICUALT AT ALL!!!!!!!
im sure steven has told us much more than we even need to know about the tpu
yesterday i was plusing a trans former backward right out of my freq gen and it was set to 12 v and i plused 1 set of wires and when i hit the right freq for the transformer it would humm big time with no magnets and i mesured the output of the transformer and it was over 70v ac at the right freq for the transformer no useable power but if i put a fet or a high speed switch to turn off and on 12v dc at 2-3 amps im sure i would have useable output power so what if you had 3 transformers plused backward each feeding 1 of the 3 collector layers and each of the layers out of phase by 120 deg so then i would be putting about 70v or so through each of my 3 layers and i should then have a verry strong mag feild racing around a ring so im guessing when we hit the right speed of the ring all 3 layers that are out of phase will make a constant huge mag feild and surround the ring compleatly just as though it was a constant input
so i guess what im think ing is this make 3 coils each diffrent freqs or diffrent harmonicas of the same freq
im gonna leave it there 4 now
i had 1 more thought about the ring
what about this when we cancel the flux of the ring inside of the ring does that cancel the flux to the earth? if it does it makes sence when you turn it upside down it will not work
if that is right then it is like we are pluging our tpu in to the earth and traping power from it in the ring and only letting out of it what we want to use from it if that is correct then it is like we have connected it with the earth or set in in vibration with the earth
well all from me for a bit back to the bench
ist
Yeah, IS has the right idea I think. I'm doing the same with three collectors on top of each other. SM seems to talk about the collectors more than the controls in his letters? I figured he would want to explain more about the controls...
Tubes work diffrent then SS parts.
much much much diffrent.
ohm's law does not apply to tubes.
Voltage is generated as the electrons accelerate and hit the plate.
most of the times the circuit is fed with a DC signal.
for example when you take a microphone as the input you usually switch it in series with let's say a 6 volt DC source because otherwise the AC signal from the mic will try to pull a push circuit which will result signals in the wrong way and in energy loss.
therefore we switch in the 6 volt DC so the signal from the mic will always be positive, the AC signal will simply add to the DC signal.
like the AC signal is 0 +1 +3 +1 0 -1 -3 -1
then the signal with the added 6 Volt DC would be +6 +7 +10 +6 +5 +3 +5 etc, always positive with respect to the tube.
then in the second stage the condensors will decouple the signal and the end tube will amplify the incoming signal quite powerfull even with a low input signal.
i am doing a great study on tubes and i am starting to understand what Steven means.
M.
well i went tube shopping today and i managed to find 1 6bq7a tube for 5 bucks and i bought an old tube radio
so i came home and just found the data sheet for that tube it explains all about that tube here is the link
http://tubedata.tigahost.com/tubedata/sheets/155/6/6BQ7A.pdf
ist
Nice :)
does the radio still work?
M.
hello marco it sure does it is a 1943 westing house am all tube radio there are about 5 tubes in it there inst much else inide it a few resisitors model # is 808L5
ist
Ahhh! What we used to call 'The All American 5 tuber'. I'm sure it wasn't invented in the US.
There was a day when I could draw the schematic from memory. Lots of hummmm. Lots of heat.
It may be easier for most to do the test/design stuff with SS but not me.
mmmm BEP super hetrodine or that other thing Grundidg mmmm Wier ? low vaues of the tuber ELL ---- punatgmmm gezz
@marco ,
same what you like ti do with tubes
you can dio also with high voltages J-Fets !!!
Exacly same in Input and Output - Signal an Currents..
But MOS-Fet have more the Characteristics
same as Transistors ..
If you have some Ask for that.
I have done more than 50 Years professionally worked
and experience with specially all this devices.
Find my Email in Overunity "Profil".
Pese
NO! , they can act much in the same way but they are two completly diffrent things...
that would like to say a duck is a chicken just because they are both birds and look the same but it is not right.
M.
right.
SS habe not heater , not barium in the devive.
also hv rect. tube (25kv) damper or booster dides lik GY500
make BETA radiation , and possibel that will produce also
"starnger" energies in the cathode ore anode line.
that FE that was "deiscovered in rectivier circuit from (SM?`)
was make wis rect. tubes frum 5xx# Serie.
So like 5U4 enc. You will see my tube list. all 5XX# tubes
are usefull for this.
But you will not find any energy , more than the nois taht will produced from
the boiled barium.
Pese
Hi Pese,
Steven said he origionally got the idea of electron circuits which used the rectifier tubes, not that they produce FE....
to go further you need Triodes.
The tubes first made by Lee De Forrest when he placed a spiral shaped grid between the cathode and the anode so he could influence the electron beam flowing in between.
It's intresting you mention the Gamma emission,it involves the compton scattering and all is intresting related to electron emission.
Specially because we know the voltage has to be high enough to "make the violing work" so to say.
But if that is the true behind the TPU?
i do not know, could be i hope we will find out.
Marco.
Quote from: -[marco]- on July 22, 2007, 08:39:42 AM
Hi Pese,
Steven said he origionally got the idea of electron circuits which used the rectifier tubes, not that they produce FE....
to go further you need Triodes.
The tubes first made by Lee De Forrest when he placed a spiral shaped grid between the cathode and the anode so he could influence the electron beam flowing in between.
It's intresting you mention the Gamma emission,it involves the compton scattering and all is intresting related to electron emission.
Specially because we know the voltage has to be high enough to "make the violing work" so to say.
But if that is the true behind the TPU?
i do not know, could be i hope we will find out.
Marco.
MS was trying wit Rect DIODES-Tubes.
5U4 5V4 that work 350V and about 220mA (about 80 Watt)
the dubble triode that now act is (i must look , but i think 2 time 2 watt maxium.
Tesla worked with pentode tube ( in US = Beam tube) (abot 5 Wat , and an
weekly diode system in same Tube that can wower lower than 1 watt and les than 50mA (about)
Must see the datasheet 70L7.
6 pcs was in his car (but the pentode possible woreke faor frequency devider to form an
low frequency for his AC- Motor.
BUT it is to wonder that tube wit 70volt filiament heater was used !
Only 12Volt Battery on board !!
6 and 12 volt tubes was also 1930-1940 in any construction on the marked.
To use 12nq7 or the lower cost 12at7 12ax7 enz or some high power triodes ,
are equivalent to SM construction , that also cant produced the "invented" effect,
(Only some week nois from barium filament can be (possible) be an effect.
Pese
Attention to understand.
70L7 !This is NOT an rectifier beam tube .
this is an diode rectifier system in in (very week type)
and an stronger Penthode (US say BEAM) Amplifier tube in it.
cathode + 3 gird + anode.
3.gird will alltime connected with cathode.
RCA PATENT say BEAM Tube for it (RCA Patent) .
The (older) Penthode System from TELFUNKEN was
exacly same .
The US Patent say , 3.gird connecte in tube with cathode.
The German Tube externly. So the US have an grat
Patent for his RCA 6L6 Tube (in Audio Amplifier)
an the German one EL34 (EL36) is the equivalent
(better) one.
This only to say , what a BEAM-Tube is
In any way possibly the typ Number 70L7 , can possibly be WRONG
(was not Informated from TESLA !)
So it ist very hard to examine to undersTAND 2HIS WORK2
gp
GP
how about the phase invertor now im guessing it does exacaly what it says
inverts the phase so wont that cancle the flux from the oncomming siginal and the returning siginal from the triode tube also and in solid state wont a crystal do the phase inverting for us ?
is
ok now
i was reading the specks on the tube i have and
in the first 2 sentences of the speck sheet it says in my understanding that i need only 1 tube for the tpu sending and recieving of signals {low voltage pluses }
ok so now what i think is this 2 transmitters 1 reciever in the middle 1 triode tube
transmitters should be out of phase of each other
i triode tube = 3 fets? or 6 ?
1 for each freq
push and pull?
so 2 triode tubes 1 for each transmitter ?
transmitters are 2 wraps of flat copper or many many fine strands lamp wire? for the primary and a match mass copper finer gage stranded for the secondary then an emitter point that is 1 transmitter top or bottom the other transmitter is the exact same except wound other dirrection and and put on top of collector
collector is identical to transmitter except wound other way and 2 of them 1 for bottom transmitter and 1 for top transmitter
does this make any sence?
i guess we would need feedback for the tubes so 2 feed back coils wound on the collectors top 1 and bottom 1 then it is only the controls left so do they get the out put of both triodes put togather and are the wound over all others in 3 or 6 or 9 segments?
humm still thinking
ist
:)
@ marco im ready to know about that radio i have if you have some time
also the 6bq7a tubes does any one know how you could hook them up and what can be used as a power source for the tubes from what i have herd and read most tubes operate on higher voltages want to play with the tube i have but dont know where to start in even getting the thing to turn on
for some one like me with verry little ss exp. tubes sound at the best place to start any help well would be great
using tubes we eliminate most of the possible problems we would encounter in ss
so it bothers me that almost no one has played with them
we have been told where to start but choose to ignore it!!!!
Y????
ISTEAM!!
IS, and all.
What I am reading here scares me.
Folks, tubes use high voltage!!
If you do not know what you are doing in electronics, think twice about delving into tube units.
I have been shocked by 600V working on a tube guitar amplifier, and it wasn't pretty :o
Keep in mind that a tube unit will be fairly expensive, and limited in functionality. For example, don't expect the same flexibility as the TP600 or TP900 I am designing.
I am looking into designing a tube unit for the TPU folks here also. But as I said, be prepared to dish out the $ and don't expect the world unless you want 100 tubes in this thing.
Regards,
Darren
hello darren and all
i currently have a a shine square generator tube style it is a heath built about 40 -50 years old works great that is generating my pluses wahat i want it to use the pre amp tube that i have with the coil and when the other 2 i ordered come in i want to use 1 for the phase invertor at the othere end of the coil and send the 3 square waves through the tubes to turn off and on 12 v for my control coils to make huge kicks that is all
how can i use that tube any help? this is only for finding the right freqs and to make the coil work this is not for my finished tpu only to test the coils till i find the right coil
then i want to make a ss circuit that does the exact same thing as all the tubes and put it in the ring but first i must find out how it will work and we were told tubes were the easyest way
so i start there
also tesla never had solid state did he? he used tubes in his electric powered car i think all he did was take the tpu further we are working with 3 freqs tesla was working with 5 freqs and lower speeds for higher power to power big induction motor to drive the car
when we run a race do we start at the finish line?
is
re viewing some newer material i have a question what does a pentogon have to do with the tpu?
i rewatched the sm videos agin and if you look at the shape of the 6" coil it looks like it is a pentigon the controls and the driver circuit on the 1 side og the pentigon also in IH thred about magitisum mit refers to a pentigon ring as charging by induction and all angles focous on the center of the ring hummm
Looking at the specs, it sounds like the E88CC (http://jj-electronic.sk//pdf/E88CC.pdf)/6922 dual triode (long-life version of ECC88/6DJ8/6N23P (http://jogis-roehrenbude.de/Roehren-Geschichtliches/ECC88-Familie/ECC88-Familie.htm)) would probably be a candidate. In particular, it is still being manufactured by JJ Electronic (http://jj-electronic.sk/) and available for a reasonable price (if you don't need gold pins (http://jogis-roehrenbude.de/Roehren-Geschichtliches/ECC88-Familie/JJ-E88CCGold/JJ-E88G.htm) ;)). The 6922 is also still being manufactured by Sovtek (http://sovtek.com) (also for Electro-Harmonix (http://ehx.com) as 6922EH). The PCC88/7DJ8 is the tv version of the ECC88 with 7V (or 300mA if connected in series) instead of 6.3V for heating.
[My idea being that if one already invests a lot of time then why not use a tube manufactured in this century and that has recently passed a functional check, rather than save a bit money (or likely pay even more for an old or NOS tube). SM hinted that any VHF triode will do, so why not use one of the best? And perhaps if people could agree on the same tube type it could even make comparison of results easier.]
;ost ubes also working at 100Volts an lower
(also power Tube , for (example) Tesla transformers.
i worked myself (as child) with tube for radio receivers (1950) that need only
12 volt vor "anode" supply !
Also in the `50 come an lot of tubes in germany also usa (rca and telefunken) that worked
at 6 volt and 12 volt ANODE SUPPLY !!
(Yes i know that ALSO the Heater (filament) Voltage are most at 6 or 12 Volts
ITs NOT MISTAKE from me !! It is Knowledge !!.
(and -now- lost science after only 50 years !!)
Gustav Pese
But unfortunatly , yiu can "shure" nothing do with this "misterios" Tubes in the Cook design.
.
@ duff ;D ;D ;D ;D THANK YOU SOOOO MUCH I HOPE YOU HAVE FOUND WHAT I HAVE ON THAT SITE
that is a really good link you posted there wow is all i can say and i havent even looked at the tubes yet!! or all the books
but let me tell you the magnetic amps look verry kool and much like the tpu
a question about 6bq7a triode tube
the first tube acts as a high speed switch? and the phase invertor tube acts as an oscilater ? inverting the siginal?
for all 3 freqs?
will the 6bq7a act as 3 indivual switches? if so how would i wire it up?
thanks
for all who are wondering what i have found here is the link im sure this is golder tpu basics and i now beleave the tpu is a magnetic ampiflyer thanks agin duff read the entire book here is the link
http://triodetubes.com/data/books/mag_amp.pdf
enjoy
ist
http://members.tripod.com/~gabevee/mytubamp.html
if you will work , with tubes e88cc and others
thousends of page are in www.
cant understand that you asking for circuits.
also high voltages are NOT dangerous (BEACUSE only some mamps are needed for preamplifier tubes.)
Nobody will died with that !
Pese
someone with more experience must read this book from pg 207 to 230 it is how we might be using thease tubes for the tpu please have a look at it it is on the link from duff it is the book called lauer_radio_enginerring im having a hard time with it but it does make much sence on how it could be hooked up
ok you all here we go
here is a another book that should be looked at on pg 224 it talkes of tube driven beat freqency osolators hummm
the book is called basic radio the esencitals of electron tubes and there circuits by j barton hoag
in this book on page 345 is a secematic for a blocking osoliator using tubes also it tells us of the regenerative part of the circuit the book is electronic transformers and circuits there was also a plused hifreq transformer
ok guys here is another data sheet fot the 6bq7a tube but notice at the top of it it says for tv tuners using dirrect cuppleded cathode drive circuits
also it says 6.3 volts @.4 amps for the heater and in some of the schems that is all that is needed to create a regenerative osolatior circuit hummmm it sounds like supply the heater and let the tubes convert the power
here is the link for the data sheet http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/tubedata/6BQ7-A.PDF
if you are still hungry for more here is another book on pg 68 it talks of voltage amps using triode tubes and they sound right along the lines as the tpu aswell the book is called electron tube circuits well worth the read
ok some where i was reading today it said about beat freqs and it was talking about the diffrence between the 2 freqs eg.. freq 1 is 5kh and freq 2 is 6 kh the collector coil should be tuned 1 kh or the diffrence between the 2 freqs should be close to 7.8 hz in the tpu case does that make sence ?
a freq gap between the beats at around 7.8 hz
just 1 more question for tonight will 1 6bq7a do it all for 1 freq? i mean will 1 tube send a signal then recieve that same signal back agin then phase invert that signal send it off then get it back agin then amp it to output? all just with the 1 tube per freq? can a triode do that?
Quote from: pese on July 28, 2007, 01:21:32 PM
Also in the `50 come an lot of tubes in germany also usa (rca and telefunken) that worked
at 6 volt and 12 volt ANODE SUPPLY !!
There are two experimenting kits (Franzis Lernpaket R?hrentechnik (http://franzis.de/?art=1953) and Lernpaket R?hrenradios (http://franzis.de/?art=2274)) that include such tubes (the kit (http://b-kainka.de/lproeradios.html) creator (http://b-kainka.de) has even written a book (http://b-kainka.de/roehren.html) in German about tubes working with 6V-60V). However, they might be slower at these voltages (the speed of the electrons passing from cathode to anode is proportional to the square root of the voltage, so it depends what the distance between cathode and anode of a particular tube is to compare the different voltages).
On a somewhat related note, tubes seem to be more popular again since I've just seen there are even some R?hren-Workshops (http://elektor.de/workshop) about them in Germany.
here is 1 more thought if tubes run slower on 6 -60 volts then how about the ramp up time and time where the tpu adjust its self to self reaosnance is that the tubes warming up or building up voltage for it to properly work after ramp up the tubes have power fore use externally
well it kinda fits things
is
Steven mentioned the 6BQ7-A particulair and he said substitutes with a 12 volt heater could be used, but there arent any substitutes for taht tube in that voltage area.
M.
marco do you think a 6volt heater wont work? i thinlk it will work better i will use less power i think sm uses a dc battery to power the tubes heaters that is all the battery is for so it will last a verry long time because he said it has batteryies in it but they are not used for out put only for the tubes i think that the tubes do most of the work here and the coil is only for kicks the kick comes from the controls right so maybe all we need to do is this plusr 3 coils 123 slight out of phase the kick will turn into a magnetic feild around the control coil adding magnetic induction into the collector just like ottos test along time ago that is all the tubes do the rest!!
but the tube circuits must involve a amp an osolator or the coil must be built as a magnetic amp to avoid the use of a tube amp also how about this can we tune the coil to a permenant magnet so when you bring the magnet close to the coil it will resonate with the magnet by its self after you turn on the heater in the tubes? then it will ramp up to desired freq and voltage
humm
more stuff to loose people round here but you all know what there has not been near enough tube work round here so this is my focous
asking all who know about tubes to help i know nothing about them at all but im learning as we all can after how many years of ss reaserch with little results i think it is time to listen to what we have been told by sm start with tubes and make it happin!!!!
@ marco
as i recall you said you were doing a great study on tubes just a thought....... why dont you do it with the rest of this fourm and help us with them i know you have a great knowlage of tubes care to share?
somthing tells me that this can be cracked verry fast with tubes and we can make it work in a short time peroid from now if we had a concertated efford from all that can contribuite
thease tubes are common tubes and cheep but there are many more tubes that can be used for the same thing it is how we use them and how be build the ring or the transfomer to work with the tube
is
now that is just stupid ,Steven talks about putting the AC current from the HTR on the heater and William here talks about Steven using DC batterys to heat the tube.
You need to read some more dude....go on spread some more confusion.
M.
6BQ7A
If you need 12 Volt heaters , take another
some type have 2 heater at 6 volts inside and can so
heated with 6 or 12 volts
the cheapest type is ECC82 = 12AU7
Also 7119 can be used that is approx. same
tube with 3 time more
Dissipation.
Datas :
---------------
ECC182 / 7119
Filament
6,3V 0,64A or
12,6V 0,32A
Va Ia K Vg1 Pente
120V36mA 24 -2V 15mA/V
Double triode - culot Noval
---------------
6BQ7A
Filament
6v
Va Ia K Vg1 Ri Pente
150V 9mA -- -- 6,1k 6,4mA/V
Double triode - culot noval
-------------
ECC82 12AU7
Filament
12,6V 0,15A or
6,3V 0,3A
Va Ia Ranode Vg1 Ri Pente
250V 10,5mA 100k -8,5V 7,7k 2,2mA/V
double triode - culot noval
Regards , very easy to find in WEB
Pese
nice pese
just what you said 2 hearers at 6 volts or 2 hearers connected togather @ 12 volts ac or dc does not matter but when some of you find the osolators i have seen you will see that is all that is required for them to work so why not power the tube heaters with 6 or 12 volts dc maybe some litium batteries small easy to hide in the tpu and let the freqs and the coils and the tube work togather and do the rest!!!
marco did you miss the speck sheet for that tube??
the heater can be powered by ac or dc 6.4 volts what you want ac use the output of the osolator maybe the feedback eh dude? 1 of the oslators i found there are many regenertaive osolators out there for tubes triodes spicifaly i think any triode tube will work for the tpu but some are of higher gain so the adjustments would have to be made in the coil if you were to use higher gain tubes thease tubes are med gain i beleave
hey turbo if you have the answers then step up and be a man un till someone does i will dig and dig and post so all is covered till we crack it the more that is posted and played with the more that is understood!!!!!!
and the more we learn if we only study what is here where will we get? just like if we only look on google we will see only what they let us see
ist
READ THE OLD BOOKS FOR THE TRUTH!!!
then apply it to what we already know to find the answers ;)
i think if we do a big study of triodes we will find that the tpu workes the same way as a triode and maybe just maybe the coil replaces the the amp tube if it was a gatair amp so we use the preamp part of the amp circuit and the coil is the other tube the only way we will know is to talk about it and play with it
if i seam to confuse people that was not a goal of mine but with out any of my thoughts in this project i still think that progress would have been slower btw turbo did i not help in bring you back here to help us i beleave i did when i worked on your ring b4 that you were a ghost why because you lied about your ring and did not want to talk about it but thank you for owning up
so this is done and gone lets work out the tubes as a team team work is the only way we will have sucuess
im in now till i crack it or someone else does but the easy way the way it should have been done a long time ago!!!
WITH TUBES!!
@ mannix you have done lots of work with tubes have you not? can you help in this
or do i stand and walk alone ... i walk alone... i walk alone... my shadow is the only one that walks beside me i walk alone i walk alone......
is
sounds like the boulovard of broken dreams to me!!
That's my train of thought too, use tubes tubes tubes! Alas I have no money, so it's up to you IS.
yeah IS go buy those tubes and make that violin work.
i don't have the power to feed them.
M.
what power to feed them ? 6 volts or 12?
u must look at those schems i found that is all that is required!!! for those tubes to be set into osolation and gain power with each pluse throught the ring the magnetic amp!! until they reach the peak you desire
marco i have 1 already and are waiting on the other 2 but did not want to wrek it so i will learn as much as i can b4 i play with it too much it is 2 triode tubes in 1 for vhf so how is this for the freqs remember 3 6 9 well 3rd harmonic bottom collector / controls 9th harmonic top collector / controls and center tuned to the 6th harmonic then we only need 2 beat freqs of oppsit harmonics to ringgg 6 harmonic the collector and transmit the amplified power wirelessly through resonace
im sorry you all i just cant stop so when i do finish runnung my mind i hope we will make some more progress!!!! with the use of some of my thoughts
btw not that it means anything but i was eletrucited when i was 6 months old and my entire live i have had a facsanation with electricty
is
Quote from: innovation_station on July 29, 2007, 01:07:25 PM
READ THE OLD BOOKS FOR THE TRUTH!!!
then apply it to what we already know to find the answers ;)
i think if we do a big study of triodes we will find that the tpu workes the same way as a triode and maybe just maybe the coil replaces the the amp tube if it was a gatair amp so we use the preamp part of the amp circuit and the coil is the other tube the only way we will know is to talk about it and play with it
if i seam to confuse people that was not a goal of mine but with out any of my thoughts in this project i still think that progress would have been slower btw turbo did i not help in bring you back here to help us i beleave i did when i worked on your ring b4 that you were a ghost why because you lied about your ring and did not want to talk about it but thank you for owning up
so this is done and gone lets work out the tubes as a team team work is the only way we will have sucuess
im in now till i crack it or someone else does but the easy way the way it should have been done a long time ago!!!
WITH TUBES!!
@ mannix you have done lots of work with tubes have you not? can you help in this
or do i stand and walk alone ... i walk alone... i walk alone... my shadow is the only one that walks beside me i walk alone i walk alone......
is
sounds like the boulovard of broken dreams to me!!
Well I'm going to try it too, ya know ;) I love the idea of using a tube (apparently fast turn on and off time) and those wonderful circuits Earl gave us should give me some great results...once I get some money. :D I still have to pay back Mr.Mag for his oscilloscope :D
well i plan on meeting mr mag it seams i owe him still aswell so you are not alone ;)
but i need 1 more scope right away too so time to find it i realy i would like 2 more so i can watch all that goes on in the ring all must be dual trace scopes
the 1 i have now is a 20 mhz and i want 2 faster 1's aswell but not too much money they are out there i will find them or maybe they will find me!!!!
Hi Guys,
Im not sure how many here are using tubes here but We KNOW that he said use them,we know that he said that he would not have discovered it but for them. We also know that hardly any people are using them..WHY is that?
It is because we think we know better...Which of course is a lie we tell ourselves unless, of course you have a TPU running on mosfets..which Steven has...after 10 years of a running tpu on tubes!!!!
After all this time,after all the information, 90% of you must think you know better,or believe that the advice that you have been given is wrong.
I believe that if lots of us were using tubes and keeping quote"HARMONIC PERFECTION" firmly in what we create,we just might have something special to share...in time
Funny how we would like more info but have failed to fully explore the vital clues and specific directions that we have been given.
I guess we are all smarter than the inventor...he does look here ..
its 12 months since i tried to encourage the private group to use tubes and was banned from them for some reason..i was angry that they were not listening to the tube info..i guess that rubbed rich's feathers.
I wonder how many here have a tube rack up and running ...?
Lindsay
I wanna get some tubes as soon as possible, but it's just not possible right now. I have no money at the moment, but once I get some, I'll buy 5 triode tubes for my pulse setup. Why are we using MOSFETS? They're TRANSISTORS, they're NOISY (as Steven himself said). I think someone once said on here that tubes have instantaneous (or close) rise and fall times? Heh, the only problem with my TPU is I built it too small, it'll be impossible to fit those electronics in the middle of it. :( I don't know how big they are, but I hope the ones I'm looking at are small. By the way, Mannix, for the heater, can you use 12 volts DC or is it AC? Also, for the grid (I think that's the equivalent of the base in a transistor?) how much voltage do you apply to it?
im going to do some work tonight and see if i can convert some of the schems i have looked at and post them if i can convert them pictuarly osolators the bloking osolator for triode tubes and some others that only require the heater to be powered for the tubes by lower voltage like i said there many i found over 15 diffrent osolators and that was barley looking
thank you mannix have you played with the 6bq7a tube in the past?
our 9 th harmonic will be of vhf and it must be clean if we intend on using it at all we can do that with tubes because thease tubes produce crystal clear sounds that few other things do
is
I wish I could help with the experiementation somehow. I'm gonna start looking for a job tomorrow, SOMETHING! I'm tired of being broke.
.
.
ok duff this is what i think about the quote you posted from sm
where he says this
I am using 6BQ7-A tubes for the input and phase inverter because they are VHF amplifier triodes designed to operate in Color TV at very high frequencies and so you can imagine how crystal clear my high frequencies are in my stereo amplifier."
what i see in this phrase is this ok he is using those tubes so eather 1 tube triode or 1 dubble triode to do do this send out signal in to the magnetic amp or the ring (in my opinion it is the same thing) the phase invertor does exacaly what it says flips the phase so the flux is cancled with the other pluse that has been sent a crystal will do the same thing at the other end of the coil like bordarland seiences did in there vid but they used a volt meter it fliped the signal and sent it back through the coil and then the osolator at that end sends the first signal and the next 1 back through the coil agin and this repeats and repeats until the voltage reaches its peak or i guess if u let it go you would have a runaway effect
well the last part of the phrase means in my opinion this
he is using 2 high freqs with a diffrence of close to 7.8 hz between the 2 freqs also he tells us that he only uses 2 of the 3 rings for the plused freq his amp is his tpu!!!
well earlyer on today i was expairmenting with 2 freqs and my scope and a tuned primary and secondary mass to mass and well i set 1 generator to 1hz and the other to 7.8 hz and what happined when i plused the coil this is all just out of the freq gen no hi power nothing like that right from the gen
well why dont you just try it and you will see what i saw
it looks like small lightning on my scope between the pluses but not verry fast sooooo
speed it up!!!! to verry high freq and what you got is tones of hi voltage kicks or bursts of engery the faster the beat is plused it seams right now to me that the more output power you will have
i will post a small vid of what i have seen on my scope to show everyone
is
Ok . I will have a go here ,to all who want to get their hands dirty and think this is a bit more important than a weekendpasstime
The 6bq7 is a med mu triode 12ax7 12au7 are more common and are pin compatible.there are many,many others and just about any piece of tube equipment will have something like them...so ..it aint that hard
they are phase inverters...ALL TUBES ARE PHASE INVERTERS!
His mention of response time was in relation to feedback..because it sure is not in pulse time ...right?
all transistors are phase inverters....he was not being cryptic or general here..it may well have a lot to do with making an air core, blocking oscillator perhaps but with harmonic perfection...this would mean that the tank side would have to be resonant at a particular frequency just a guess by me here.
this would also suggest that pulses are not what we want...I know the conflict here..but who has got any where with pulses?...the closest thing so far was when sine was created from them..re ecd.
Here is a question for the Pc Heros( Otto's term ) offense not intended
What part of "harmonic perfection" would use pulses?
I notice a mild waver in my 15" tpu at specific frequencies...ones mentioned...no massive power surge and my tpu is still on the table...but it is interesting ....
Now, how dare anybody who has not used tubes themselves ask for more info....on the other hand..those who do use them just might get the respect that they may be entitled to...I donk know ..just using past history to go by here.
It means using Ottos aproach but wih tubes...at least they wont blow up..
Of course many of you have neither the capacity or the will to do that...you could just watch and wait untill while somebody else does it for you.
AS FAR AS I CAN SEE TUBES ARE JUST TALK HERE
A race to the bottom....does any body remember my story about the bottom feeders....it was just about the time Steven mentioined many times that tubes were easier.
Any body inspired to use tubes...yet?
ready for a hard challenge?
ya'll know better ay? them lights are real
Lindsay
sorry i just remembered somebody asked for a circuit
EDIT...There is absolutely no point in supplying a circuit at this point because if you do not have the knowledge or experience to follow the basics of what has been said then you should NOT be mucking around with lethal voltages and currents in the first place...let alone what might result.
Ack, so many condradicting ideas going through my damn head.
"Three phase? Ok! Pulses or sine waves? Sine waves would make the most sense wouldn't they? Wait, you can't get any "interesting" results with sine waves, you need kicks don't you? Use square waves! A three phase square wave!? I've never done anything like that"
Aggg. I'm really in a confused state of mind, so many questions that I need to answer, I wanna build build build. Can't wait. At least I'll have plenty of experiements to take up my time. Im using some VHF tube, the 12AT7 or something like that, I can't remember the exact name.
Quote from: Super God on July 29, 2007, 11:14:27 PM
Ack, so many condradicting ideas going through my damn head.
"Three phase? Ok! Pulses or sine waves? Sine waves would make the most sense wouldn't they? Wait, you can't get any "interesting" results with sine waves, you need kicks don't you? Use square waves! A three phase square wave!? I've never done anything like that"
Aggg. I'm really in a confused state of mind, so many questions that I need to answer, I wanna build build build. Can't wait. At least I'll have plenty of experiements to take up my time. Im using some VHF tube, the 12AT7 or something like that, I can't remember the exact name.
What do you mean....you cant get anything interesting??
You have tried?
That tube is the same family of triodes.
No matter how hard mosfets are ...tubes are easier...Unless you know something that i dont.
if so let me have it!
Lindsay
Not yet, but I'm planning to very very soon. But here's what's got me. With sine waves you have a smooth transition from peak to peak, so where do you get the kick from? I think I'm misunderstanding the kick. But enough questions from me :D Looks like I'll need about 9 function generators (or 12 if I wanna pulse the collectors) to fully experiement with my coil. But then again the function generators can't fit in the middle of a 6 inch coil like I have here. Wow, getting ahead of myself again. Oh well, one collector at a time I suppose.
P.S. Mannix - have you noticed that Steven talks more about the collectors than anything else in those letters? I think at one time or another he said something about pulsing them with one or two frequencies, but then again that might just be from the control coils and not directly like I was thinking. I don't know.
Yup, have a good day.
well all what is happinng with my pluses in my vid 1 pluse is at 1hx and the second is at 8.8 hz and that is a diff of 7.8 hz the second pluse jumps and i seam to only get negitive spikes but that is ok because of the phase invertor right it will turn them around then they will be posotive but it is werry weird i can only get thease types of waves at low freqs but i think that is the beat freq but there is 3 freqs so what is the 3rd for well how about to set the coil at resosnance then add the beat what happins well i can show you in another vid but i cleand up my scope shoot so i could have a better look at what is happining and they are irruglar spikes kind of i will post 1 more vid of the cleaned up scope shoot
and then i will add the resonance freq to the mix and well shoot a vid i guess i know what happins
here is the cleaned up shoot of the above vid
.
Quote from: Mannix on July 29, 2007, 10:58:16 PM
but who has got any where with pulses?...the closest thing so far was when sine was created from them..re ecd.
as a matter of fact i did get somewhere using DC pulses.
However i did also see intresting things when combining sine.
so i guess this question remains unawnserd for now but hey we can try both, it ain't that difficult.
Marco.
when 3 squares come togather at 3 diffrent freqs will we not get a nice shine with many harmonics? and kicks or spiks
that is what i see
with the beat you see above vid with a 7.8 hz gap between the 2 freq and when i add the 3rd it adds the harmonice when i add the harmonic resonance freq that is what it does it harmonizes exploding the waves i set my harmonis freq at a high level in the 100k setting and the wave goes crazy spikes and irrulaguar static or lighting type discharges
that is how it looks on my scope i have hooked no external power to it yet to see what will happin just the freq gens
i would have shoot a vid last night but the batteries died
is
Hey IS,
I always said all along, in my thread, that SM tuned his coil to 7.23 Hz. Roberto and many others believe as you have been experimenting with, that this was the beat frequency. We know that the three frequencies were VHF range. So if he deliberately made the beat frequency between 7 to 8 Hz, one tunes into that "huge magnetic wave" as shown in Marco's dancing magnets that I spoke about so very often, also in my thread. So, by tuning the beat frequency to the huge magnetic wave, caused by the magnetic field of the earch, would this cause the "phenomenon of magnetic collection"? Perhaps. Make sure your coils you are experimenting with are wound CCW and the the direction of the VHF are probably the same. I would also suggest, since you seem serious about this, that you read Jason's latest post about what he has discovered about the different harmonics. It will help you in your experiments, I do believe.
Cheers,
Bruce
@ Mannix:
You are so right on the high voltage in tube systems. I used to have a Galaxy 550 and it had a plate v of 750v! I felt its wrath once and was very careful after that. Death is a careless touch away.
@ All
I have over the years found myself looking back for the simple knoledge spoken in simple terms. If you have a desire to really understand tubes, I would suggest you look back into the old Ham Radio manuals. ARRL is most likely one of the best as it is geared to the amature, hence amature radio. You can find PDF's of some of the old manuals on www.pmillett.com for down load. They hold a wealth of info and are for the beginners. The 1959 manual would be a great start. It is geared towards transmitters and receivers but the very thing you are discussing here will be in the circuits use if you weed them out.
Hope that is of some help to you all. "Tubes Live"!
thaelin
okay so today i blew up my headphones >:( >:( >:( >:(
So i decided to build a new amp to start with :)
Where's a good place to learn about designing tube amplifiers or amplifiers in general?
marco / turbo
verry nice
now the fun will begin and the answer will unfold
i am planning on stocking up as well this week
perhaps we all can work at it as a big team publicaly
ist
Quote from: Super God on July 30, 2007, 04:00:04 PM
Where's a good place to learn about designing tube amplifiers or amplifiers in general?
Try here:
http://kbapps.com/tubemanual.html
FB
i did found some good info here http://www.geofex.com/tubeampfaq/tafaqndx.htm (http://www.geofex.com/tubeampfaq/tafaqndx.htm)
And i will start with the PS first.
i will be building this one and offcource i will have to add another stage to make it a 3 channel class A and i am also seeking for a nice tube Gen circuit.
M.
sorry for posting like this but it is the only way 4 me right now just read this !!!
and see how it fits!!!!
ISTEAM!!
ok i have to change the 4 pages to a diffrent format but i think you all might be excited after you read this i am anyway!!
Another upside to using tubes is they will survive any massive CME or geomagnetic
disturbance, as compared to the static sensitive fets, of course you might buy
the hardened ones made with synthetic diamond, but I think they will be hard to
aquire.
If you can do it with tubes then this is the best option, they are much more har har
hardier ;D
dirt
A few Tubers!...simple things really ...just bitey!
Use one only hand at all times....and it will just hurt a lot!
I have been told that a tube circuit can be attached directly to a "coil" and it will tolerate the massive harmonics generated by the interactions with out damage.
this "suggests" that no transformer was used...however, IF a transformer was used it had better be able to do 245 khz..
6as7g tubes were used in his first experiments...this also suggests freq below 300k... in fact it is hard to get these tubes to 300k. you may find it difficult to find an output transformer that will get to 300k as well.
Those with more tube experience could help here?
another good thing about these tubes is that they are happy at 150 volts and lower....a bit safer?
My suggestion is to use a dual triode driver and commom the two triodes in the 6as7 to increase the available current. feedback/syncronisation from your mass of wire at the correct point could be important.
I am working on a blocking oscillator arangement ..the tpu is the tuning transformer.
I know that all of this points us away from nanosec sharp pulses! However it may be more about how they react in the grid circuit for sync, than how fast the plate pulse is.
I cannot over stress the importance of using a 15" ring for this section of research.
time, and lots of participation will help
we are actually trying to make a circuit that will try to self destruct .
Lindsay
Ah, I see! We'll use sine waves then? In a sine waves setup, what function do the tubes serve? I'm used to seeing setups where the tubes act as switches. Actually, where the MOSFETs act as switches seeing as no one is using tubes yet. (Except a select few I guess) I'm thinking a ramp up like they use in inverter circuits where they use transistors or whatnot to step up and down the signal and smooth it out to look like a sine wave? Or is there something else... I personally am going for the 3 colector approach based on those letters. Series connect them if everything works out.
i think the tubes act some what like an electric amp the electricty will grow in the tube and end up making a stronger mag feild shock wave into the collector that is resonace cuppled to the transmitters read all 4 pages i posted please!!!
what i get out of that is this
basicly we pinch 1 tube then the other agin and agin each pinch increases the current in the tubes if you read what i posted from the book i was reading you will see how it relates the circuit must be verry simple like the eric dollard vids the phase invertor will cancel the flux will it not out of phase by 180 deg the pluses will colide inside the wire
also in that same book was somthing lke a mechanical tpu and at high speeds it could produce ofer 200kw works on the same o p but with mechanical input but we can easly sub mechanical for electrical revolving magfeilds this generator i spooke of has no tubes or circuits involved in its operation purly mechanical i beleave this produced high freq ac current wich can easly be switched to dc right!!!
btw im kind of wondering if in fact the fets people are using should be used as switches at all!!! maybe some one should hook 1 up as an amp!! like a car amp i found many circuits there was another one that talked of supplying the out put of 1 tub through the coil into the input of the next hummm
like i said read the old books for the truth then apply it to what we already know ;)
with a great efford like this how long will it take to crack this ................... not verry long
1 more way we colud look at this is there only so many tube circuits ;)
ist
there was 1 more circuit i felt fit the application as well it was a multi vibrator circuit with 2 triodes so if we use dubble triodes i guess we have 2 oscolaters in 2 tubes for 2 beat freqs for 2 rings and the 3rd is output does that fit? works similar to the last 1 i posted it sounds like to me any way that when we get this togather it will start from the swipe of a magnet if it is tuned close to 7.8 after the heaters are powered of course and also thease are not the regenerative circuits i spooke of b4 eather those are diffrent agin from thease
Let's hope we do not run out of tubes from our experiments! :D
ok guys im sorry but you all are getting to know me now and i run my mouth a bit i love to talk and be herd thank you but it is me and has always been!!!!
so this is yet 1 more thought now dooo think hard about this!!!
2 or 3 freqs ? 2 to make the beat other output or resonance freq to collect
basicly that is 2 or 3 channel i think 2 channes sm says his sterio amp i the 1 quote (means 2 channel ) ok 3 channel he refers to as the 3 freq and that is center collector
basicly if we put a pluse out of the first tube in to the tpu it comes back out of the tpu at the top and goes into another tube the siginak is then flipped so now when it comes back to the first tube but second connection or 1 connection on seconed triode tube now the siginal when it gets there is oppsite the tubes power so that is a pinch the tubes current grows then signal and extra power are inverted agin and do the thing at the other end and it repeats till we have resonance and good output power but we eather work with 3 seprate freqs and 2 rings and 2 channels or we work with 2 freqs the third is made on its own and run the 2 freqs through the coil 3 times and also im starting to think this is only for the controls only and must be dc power as per mag amp setup and then we send posibly 5 volts ac in to center collector and use the freqs and inverted signals to control the rotation dirrection of the magfeild im starting also to wonder when steven said to cancel the flux maybe he means on the outside ring of the tpu the 15" tpu because the inside has a verry strong mag feild like a mechanical generator or altonator but spun really fast right!!
ok now do this with 3 sepreat freqs or 2 i dont know for sure yet but never the less the power will grow fast in a setup like this
like manix said it took sm 10 years to get it to work on ss and how long just to get it to work at all
also i have made no mention of feed back coils yet but have found lots about them too there just so many diffrent ways one can add power to its source on its way out to do work hummmm that my friend is the tesla way!!
remember the rule that says every action has a reaction well now think like tesla here use the reaction to add to the action thus helping to fuel its self i beleave tesla discovered that and he used that principal in many of his inventions so that princible in the tpu use the feed back to trip the next pluse hummm but this is where i get a little iffy because it can grow way too fast and then well humm i dont want to find out if we do go this route lets be wise!!
is
I think I remember one of his letters saying that he first heard the the exploding TV set from his Boss in the 60's. I think. Those TV's were manufactured back in the 60's too I believe. So 20 years?? Maybe. But if we all work together we'll be able to pull this off. I know it. He gave us ALL the information we need to replicate it, but NO ONE is using tubes(aside from us), NO ONE is using three collectors...unless he meant something else by "three coils one on top of the other".
3 coils kinda like a trifller pancake coil for the 3 freqs then 1 feedback then 3 controls all on 1 ring kind of like 1 layer of my pancake coil but tuned and 1 pan cake insted of 3 stacked? if that is the case then coulld we pull 6 or 12 volts from the feed back to power the heater in the tubes so then you only need power to start it till it ramps off then power is shut off at heater of tube then feedback takes over on supply i ask this because tubes worm up and take some time to wind down after power is taken away from the heater do we could switch it from battery to feedback fairly easly kind of with out the tube really knowing or power the second heater from the feedback then we would only use half the power for 2 heaters insted of 4 plus the feedback will grow that means the heater voltage on the second triode of both tubes will rise with ramp up a form of control i guess
well i cant wait to build this big mess i have posted if it is not right yet it is ok we are getting much closer i know it
is
well i think i draind my mind agin this time all my thoughts will stay online here last time i deleted my posts and only lost the thoughts i once had i kept no coppies so i dont even remember what i said but the last time i hit a nerve and this time im sure i hit another i say this for the this reason last time my comp went crazy getting rebooted and dissalowed macs and blocked ip's and all that stuff this time a diffrent computer my laptop and agin today the first time in a long time so i know when to read the signs
@ the watchers im done till i play i can see that some things have not changed ;)
Yeah man! One day closer! Just a matter of time, we have all the information, now all that's left unanswered can be explained with experimentaion!
Quote from: Mannix on July 30, 2007, 07:28:47 PM
A few Tubers!...simple things really ...just bitey!
Use one only hand at all times....and it will just hurt a lot!
I have been told that a tube circuit can be attached directly to a "coil" and it will tolerate the massive harmonics generated by the interactions with out damage.
this "suggests" that no transformer was used...however, IF a transformer was used it had better be able to do 245 khz..
for some time i have been thinking he tpu is the OPT therefore we need high impedance conrol coils and the "Sound" is created inside the OPT with a low impedance secondary as output so that fit's i all.
first i am going to setup a normal situation whereas the HTR and the OPT are synched and then i will run the HTR on a seperate supply to see what it gives when it starts to oscillate out of phase, that is easy to do for me and i should show the "verry intresting things" which can be verry revieling Steven talks about....
in the synched situation normally both circuits are running from one power supply and when you use two seperate supply's the chance of an out of phase situation increases enormous...
that is why we need two seperate controllable DC sources.
Marco.
marco dc suppulys how about 2 feed back coils on top of the transmitters under controls to supply secondary heater in 2 tubes 1 for each with power will that work?
is
i mean two DC sources to feed the generators which will produce the 2x 50/60 Hz sine wave to run them out of phase into the transformers.
M.
Argh, this device has me frustrated. It's so simple, it has to be! I just watched the clip about one of the first devices he made, the one that put out about 61 volts. There CAN'T be much to this device. It appears to be 3 or 4 coils wound over something thin, like another wire. Then there's the same thing on the bottom and what looks like a blocking oscillator or some kind of coil in the middle? But it got me thinking in a way I haven't before. Maybe we should start by seeing if we can get a frequency pattern that sustains itself for awhile, one that doesn't just disappear after we disconnect power? Sort of like a giant flywheel but with frequencies. I fear that I'm just going over things you guys already know and have known for a really long time. If I am I appologize.
in a normal situation the oscillations die out because of internal losses.
but in this case the multiple frequency's begin to feed themselfs because the signal source also becomes the feed and has the natural tendency to run with gain.
that means there has to come energy into the system from some unknown source, and that is what we are looking for.
surely the device is simple, but a jet turbine operation is simple too.
but it won't be simple to back engineer one...
Marco.
marco what kind of hi voltage are you thinking you need to power the tubes?
tihs is 1 way you could get hi voltage
pluse a transformer backward with square waves power the tube from the output of the trans i plused a 110 - 12v trans backward i put 12v in low voltage right from my tube powered freq genny and a resonance i got over 70v out so maybe we need to try that if high voltage is required for the tubes but i dont think it is required
has anyone tryed to power the htr on a 6bq7a tube with 6 or 12v does it work? will the tube lite up? i have not tryed any tube expariments yet
im still gathering and deciding wich osc to use first
is
William..
how about we power the tube with a 500 - 0 - 500 V plate transformer??
that is exactly what Steven used in his experiments...
I am rebuilding his setup in detail yet you do not seem to understand that.
WHY WOULD WE DRIFT AWAY FROM THE ORIGIONAL EXPERIMENTS???
seriously give me one good reason to do that.
YOU ARE SPREADING CONFUSION.
i even start to believe you are doing that deliberatly.
STOP IT!!!!
M.
innovation station,
boy,let me tell you something to think about.
about a year ago i lost my job, i was sitting at home thinking what could i do...
the jobs were verry rare and they would always pick the young cheapest person who was willing to work.
so i was sitting at home and i was looking on the internet for a new job when i came by the video's of Steven Mark.
he was lighting bulbs with energy apperantly out of nowhere...
insanety struck me and i became obsessed with the tpu.
could this be true?? tapping into the electromagnetic field of the earth...?
i was desired to find the awnser and i did many experiments but none of them showed me the wanted results.
then i realized if i was going to find the awnser, i would have to redo every single experiment the master had explained to us.
so i decided to get the worst job ,the worst i have ever done, and i worked my ass off for 4 months.
i saved every penny and i even got disconnected from the power grid, the gas company,and the water company too....
so here we are today,
i have bought all the needed parts to redo the experiments.
yesterday i found a transformer on the ineternet and i drove all day long to get it.
it was a long drive but it was worth it.
when i enterd the house of the man who putted it for sale i was amazed.
it was an old man who couldn't walk anymore and his house was full of tubes, tranformers, old radio's everything.
he said he has been collecting this stuff for over 20 years.
he said we were going to pick up the transformer in one of his garages which were nearby.
actually it was an old farm and he told me there used to be piggs in the barn where was his stuff.
also he told me he had 3 of these barns which were full of stuff like this.
at the moment he opend the door i was amazed again.
i enterd the walhalla of old equipment it was all there i didn't know where to look......
i wanted to take it all home but i coudn't because i did not have that much money.
so i spend about a few hours looking for the right parts i needed to replicate Stevens experiments.
and i found them.
i also said if i needed anything else i would give him a call and he said ok.
i drove home knowing i now had all the things to see what Steven saw in his experiments...
so this brings me to the point where i suggest you get off your ass and do something.
and i mean something diffrent then pushing the reply button to add more fucking crap to this forum.
humanity is at stake.
and i do not believe you about buying the tubes and stuff....
you are just talking, talking ,talking which is the problem.
it's all quite expensive too.
but i have it and i will do the experiment.
just because i know what i am made off.
Marco.
hello all i will play dont think i wont
marco im glad for you i know what tough life is all about!!!
i put up my thoughts because where are yours tubes is the way where is the tube talk and work i have seen verry little so i talk now how many people will play with tubes ???
many will dont think i wont i will show all my work i am just getting started
is
Quote from: -[marco]- on August 01, 2007, 02:34:43 PM
innovation station,
boy,let me tell you something to think about.
about a year ago i lost my job, i was sitting at home thinking what could i do...
the jobs were verry rare and they would always pick the young cheapest person who was willing to work.
so i was sitting at home and i was looking on the internet for a new job when i came by the video's of Steven Mark.
he was lighting bulbs with energy apperantly out of nowhere...
insanety struck me and i became obsessed with the tpu.
could this be true?? tapping into the electromagnetic field of the earth...?
i was desired to find the awnser and i did many experiments but none of them showed me the wanted results.
then i realized if i was going to find the awnser, i would have to redo every single experiment the master had explained to us.
so i decided to get the worst job ,the worst i have ever done, and i worked my ass off for 4 months.
i saved every penny and i even got disconnected from the power grid, the gas company,and the water company too....
so here we are today,
i have bought all the needed parts to redo the experiments.
yesterday i found a transformer on the ineternet and i drove all day long to get it.
it was a long drive but it was worth it.
when i enterd the house of the man who putted it for sale i was amazed.
it was an old man who couldn't walk anymore and his house was full of tubes, tranformers, old radio's everything.
he said he has been collecting this stuff for over 20 years.
he said we were going to pick up the transformer in one of his garages which were nearby.
actually it was an old farm and he told me there used to be piggs in the barn where was his stuff.
also he told me he had 3 of these barns which were full of stuff like this.
at the moment he opend the door i was amazed again.
i enterd the walhalla of old equipment it was all there i didn't know where to look......
i wanted to take it all home but i coudn't because i did not have that much money.
so i spend about a few hours looking for the right parts i needed to replicate Stevens experiments.
and i found them.
i also said if i needed anything else i would give him a call and he said ok.
i drove home knowing i now had all the things to see what Steven saw in his experiments...
so this brings me to the point where i suggest you get off your ass and do something.
and i mean something diffrent then pushing the reply button to add more fucking crap to this forum.
humanity is at stake.
and i do not believe you about buying the tubes and stuff....
you are just talking, talking ,talking which is the problem.
it's all quite expensive too.
but i have it and i will do the experiment.
just because i know what i am made off.
Marco.
Absoulety!......this is an adventure. DO SOMETHING...there is no fail.
except to sit on ya arse!
Those old tube people are wonderful people who lived thu an era of challenge and respect.....quite unlike the average techos of today.
Wow Marco, that's really cool. I know if I were there I'd be like a kid in a candy store. So what all did you pick up? Just the transformer? I'm looking forward to seeing your progress!! Heh, I finally found a job today, just waiting to see if I get hired...
P.S. I agree with Mannix on the sine wave instead of sharp nanosec pulses. When I first went oer the clues I thought "THis thing looks like a motor without a rotor! But in reality, the magnetic field is the rotor, one with inertia and momentum. Once we reach this, we spin is as fst as humanly possible. Has anyone ever experiemented with what happens when you spin a magnetic field faster and faster and faster? I certainly haven't, but it's a good place to start! Three phase current generates a rotating field naturally, so it's obvious to use three phase signals in the control coils. I'm going to unground on end of the controls and run a three phase current into it. "Imagine if we could rev that puppy up to 75,000 RPM?" Imagine? Why not DO it? Why not? Well, I'm off to my work bench.
I have to admit that I have done some rather stupid things. Until now I haven't recognized the importance of a blocking oscillator. They are obviously key to the device! The big TPU has two, and ironically it uses TWO frequencies. The open TPU has ONE but uses an unknown number of frequencies, I'm assuming one. But now we have conflicting ideas on my part, the sine wave input should produce results, but how does that tie into the sharp pulses created by the blocking oscillator? The tubes play a role in there somewhere too, I need to figureout where, and the kicks, the key to the device, has to fit in there too. I feel that I'm getting closer :) Of course I could be wrong. "Another way of succeeding at finding a way not to do it" I guess.
P.S. After reading this post I realize that this may all be speculation, so I don't want to mis lead anybody into thinking I'm 100% on this stuff.
osc circuit
a quote from below
there will be continued ampification sufficent to over come the losses in the circuits and produce sustained oscolations
so you all what does that mean?
oh yea read the last line on the page
is
i picked up two plate transformers and i will use one for the high voltage and the other for the 5 volt heater so i can run them out of phase.
and i did also pick up some big capacitors and 3 of those variable tunning capacitors with the air between the plates, i don't think they make these anymore.
Marco.
Quote from: innovation_station on August 02, 2007, 01:40:28 AM
osc circuit
a quote from below
there will be continued ampification sufficent to over come the losses in the circuits and produce sustained oscolations
so you all what does that mean?
oh yea read the last line on the page
is
Hi all,
@ IS
just in addition to your post
http://www.schmarder.com/radios/others/regenrx.htm (http://www.schmarder.com/radios/others/regenrx.htm)
regards
Norbert
I used a variation of the attached while experimenting with magnetic rotation.
A good place to visit for much detail and examples of many circuits is http://www.vias.org/basicradio/basic_radio_15_09.html .
When I used this circuit I doubled it and connected them together as a multivibrator. The unique thing about this is that the frequency is highly dependent upon the magnetic resonance of the core and much less on the resonance of the coil. The coil of each tube circuit can be split into adjacent control coils.
I have some doubts about SM using it as I strongly believe he had two sets of tubes. Each set consisted of a triode and a diode. I suspect a triode or dual triode because the photos appear to show a metallic base tube. This would mean it was rated for UHF/VHF. The second tube appears to have a separate plate cap. This could mean many things but at that size of tube it usually meant it was a high voltage diode.
That would probably mean he had two blocking oscillators wired together as a multivibrator so they would alternately pulse one time each.
How would he get two pulses out of each?
The two coils of each circuit - each located 90 degrees apart would appear as two pulses - one lagging by 90 degrees.
How would he get two freqs?
Each half of the multivibrator circuit could be different by turn count or core mass so each half of the multivibrator would complete its cycle at a different rate.
Where is the third frequency?
The difference between the first two pulse rates would create a component equal to the difference between them.
What about one collector being higher Q than the other?
You can increase the Q factor of a coil by applying feedback from another coil(a tickler coil). The tickler coil is generally much fewer turns and carries a much higher current than the other coil. How you apply this info depends upon your idea of coil layout.
I hope this helps. At a minimum it should provide interesting results.
now that is called a magnetostrictive oscillator.
;D
hello all i did find somthing of intrest last night as well
might it be tpu secreats?
hummmm oh i think so
and it is about phase but i think i will let the rest of the world find this one ;)
is
ok i have posted other things that will help if they havent yet they will but i might as well post this too because how long will it be b4 this gets posted who know but it is key to the tpu
why is phase key?
well more than just making the mags rotate btw 1 group of controls go 1 way and another spinn another way remember the quote from sm wich implys this? if we had a ball and it was seperated in the center and we could spinn it in 2 dirrections what would the remifactions be?
hummmmm
phase is more than the on pluse jumping around the ring there are trailing things with phase out of phase of the first pluse by 90 deg or a quartor wave hummm current? to the feedbacks from a quaterwave humm also the perpendicular thing does that work hand in hand with phase oh i think so when i get to it i will post what im talking of
but maybe someone else will first i sure hope so
is
isnt the highest Q osc a crystal?
just a thought if we can take 3 square waves and make a sine wave can we take 3 sines and make a square wave?
so after reading what it says below applyed to the tpu feedback coils wound over all others and 3 or 4 of them depending on config of coil like gk4 4 will be easyer to understand right now so we will have current in the feedback coils but it will be dc right from the lower ring spinning 1 way and the top spinning the other way now when the 2 currents come togather insid of the feedback coil we will have positive and netigive gian of current in the feedback when both pluses are in the same feedback coil
im out there but i think that is what is required to progress this project "the out there thinking"
when the coil is set up as below then the current phase will be shifted by 90deg so the feedback coil will have current the 1 behind the 1 being plused so that is how our beat freq works as i think have the beat so it corasponds with the phase of the current so both currents are in the coil at the same time making pure dc current!!!
now how is that
i will get there trust me but it wont be alone as i laque most of the skills but i will learn them ;)
is
thinking i wont crack it ..... gall darn it i will ........ cuz im mentaly ill ........ from crazzzzy vill......
just some eminem the ~~~~ist~~~~~ way
Some folks here ought to be working with 12V tubes, rather than the 200+V ones!
Check here for some good info on them:
http://www.duntemann.com/12vtubes/12vtubesindex.htm
Darren
Quote from: z_p_e on August 03, 2007, 12:17:00 AM
Some folks here ought to be working with 12V tubes, rather than the 200+V ones!
Check here for some good info on them:
http://www.duntemann.com/12vtubes/12vtubesindex.htm
Darren
Agreed!
I'm experimenting with some 8056's out of my R390a right now. Excellent link! I've been looking for that info and the Duncan link on his page. I want to try some Thyratrons as they can handle a high capacitor discharge and switch off completely once plate and cathode are at the sam potential. They can also be biased to switch on at a selected voltage - even a small voltage.
@Z_P_E,
Do you know of any thoriated or cold cathode thyratrons?
Quote from: BEP on August 02, 2007, 04:04:22 AM
I used a variation of the attached while experimenting with magnetic rotation.
A good place to visit for much detail and examples of many circuits is http://www.vias.org/basicradio/basic_radio_15_09.html .
When I used this circuit I doubled it and connected them together as a multivibrator. The unique thing about this is that the frequency is highly dependent upon the magnetic resonance of the core and much less on the resonance of the coil. The coil of each tube circuit can be split into adjacent control coils.
I have some doubts about SM using it as I strongly believe he had two sets of tubes. Each set consisted of a triode and a diode. I suspect a triode or dual triode because the photos appear to show a metallic base tube. This would mean it was rated for UHF/VHF. The second tube appears to have a separate plate cap. This could mean many things but at that size of tube it usually meant it was a high voltage diode.
That would probably mean he had two blocking oscillators wired together as a multivibrator so they would alternately pulse one time each.
How would he get two pulses out of each?
The two coils of each circuit - each located 90 degrees apart would appear as two pulses - one lagging by 90 degrees.
How would he get two freqs?
Each half of the multivibrator circuit could be different by turn count or core mass so each half of the multivibrator would complete its cycle at a different rate.
Where is the third frequency?
The difference between the first two pulse rates would create a component equal to the difference between them.
What about one collector being higher Q than the other?
You can increase the Q factor of a coil by applying feedback from another coil(a tickler coil). The tickler coil is generally much fewer turns and carries a much higher current than the other coil. How you apply this info depends upon your idea of coil layout.
I hope this helps. At a minimum it should provide interesting results.
The basic radio hoag jpg ist wrong.
+ Batt is directly connected over the Coil (L1) to the ground (-B) so that this an "shorted" Voltage .
This L1 mus be powered from +Batt
the way that connection are :
+ Batt - L1 - Tube Anode.
L2 -Batt - L2 - G1 ist OK.
Usually for L1 is used L1 with (varible) or fix condensor in paralell ,
this way to have an fix and constant frequeny.
(do not forget the heater voltage additionalle.)
Pese
www.stormloader.com/members/pese/fe/index.html
BEP,
Have you seen this page? (Very good overview of switching tubes of all kinds).
http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/pulse.html
He seems to have specs and is perhaps selling some as well. Might be "overkill" though.
Also, download this book if you haven't already:
http://www.pmillett.com/Books/henney_industry.pdf
Darren
PS. I also came across some info on my hard drive that showed a "small type" of thyratron is a FG-57 or FG-67.
hello all it might be time to go diggin to find out exactly what tubes sm used and where he used them well we know he used the 6bq7a as a phase invertor and maybe just a pair of them to send and invert i will start looking and c what i find
ist
im sure there many tubes out there that can do things to help this project but we should use exactly the tubes sm mentions he says those spicific tubes for a reason the question is why?
ok well i read the important info all agin and we have missed much so far there is still much to be covered
but the tubes he says he got the idea from are the ones turbo is playing with but he does not use those tubes
he uses only 2 dubble triodes or to simplfly it 4 single triode tubes so what kind of osc/phase invertor can we make with 4 triode tubes
here is a picture of the tube i got a week or so ago i beleave it is the 1 sm said he used in his tpu i paid 5 bucks for it
Quote from: pese on August 03, 2007, 08:21:40 AM
The basic radio hoag jpg ist wrong.
+ Batt is directly connected over the Coil (L1) to the ground (-B) so that this an "shorted" Voltage .
This L1 mus be powered from +Batt
the way that connection are :
+ Batt - L1 - Tube Anode.
L2 -Batt - L2 - G1 ist OK.
Usually for L1 is used L1 with (varible) or fix condensor in paralell ,
this way to have an fix and constant frequeny.
(do not forget the heater voltage additionalle.)
Pese
www.stormloader.com/members/pese/fe/index.html
No, it isn't. It worked quite well. It is no more a short than a solenoid coil is a short. While I am quite sure you know far more than I about valves, I have had this circuit running.
Capacitance across the coil is to be avoided. The reason is the resonance needed is that of the core not the coil. You'll notice the two coils on the core are counterwound. When power is applied the core coils drop the majority of the voltage, the grid starts as negative and prevents tube conduction.
As voltage stabilizes across the coils the grid swings positive. This causes the tube to conduct and the B+ inductor to drop the majority of the voltage. As core flux decreases the grid swings more negative and starts the whole process over again.
This oscillator will produce very high amplitudes at incredibly low frequencies. The harmonics generated are almost always super-sonic and so are the movements of the core. A multivibrator or push-pull version of this circuit on a Maxwell coil easily produces spherical field rotation.
A garden variety tube will not handle the sinking current ability. A trigger tube may be more appropriate. The coils on such a device must be a very high turn count because a good DC resistance is needed compared to the tube + B+ inductor resistance. The object is to -constrict- the core and cause movement of the core within the grid coil end.
To that end - The core must be of good magnetostictive material or stranded/multi-element - as in speaker wire or bundles of 16 ga. iron wire.
Yes, heater voltage must be considered - if you are using a 'hot' cathode. Even if you are, another fixed coil (fixed allowing movement of the core within) at the grid end of the core should provide enough AC to heat the filament.
:)
Something weird I noticed, probably insiginificant or something. But on all of my coils with NOTHING attached at all, show zero voltage and a flat line across the scope. I have 3 control coils per collector and three collectors. Now, when I add my bias coil, it is wound all the way around and back again, it shows little spikes for some reason? I don't get these with any of the other coils, but only this one. Maybe nothing, just something I noticed.
Hi God :)
Do they look like this?
Then they are NOT insignificant.
Check the frequency of the spikes. If it is 60 or 50hz (depending on where you live), it is just EMF fluctuations caused by the AC lines in your house. Also check for any electric fans or motors running in the vicinity which may be causing EMF fluctuations.
I get those rouge spikes too sometimes.
Quote from: Sataur? on August 04, 2007, 05:07:46 PM
Check the frequency of the spikes. If it is 60 or 50hz (depending on where you live), it is just EMF fluctuations caused by the AC lines in your house. Also check for any electric fans or motors running in the vicinity which may be causing EMF fluctuations.
I get those rouge spikes too sometimes.
NO it is not!
In fact this complete experiment is performed off grid.
there is no single connection to a 50/60Hz AC powergrid what so ever.
I used two perfect sine waves generated by my own equipment.
It is obvious you do not know what i am actually doing.
Marco.
No, I did *not* mean that the device had to be *connected* in any to the AC mains, but merely that the wires that carry the AC voltage through your house give off a fluctuating EMF that can be inducted by any coils or bits of wire lying around, and can be picked up by oscilloscopes. Electric motors also give off an EMF as well, such as ceiling fans and such, but this may be less of a problem.
I would suggest putting the device in a box of copper mesh to block any external EMF's that may be interfering with the coils.
And regardless, if the frequency isn't 50-60 Hz then you don't have a problem. I wasn't accusing you of naivety, just merely offering a friendly reminder.
Oooo Marco! Please describe your transformer setup!! I wanted to try this experiement myself. Interesting spikes, I must say mine are in the millivolt range which is probably something around the house or in the oscilloscpe. But the weird thing is that it doesn't happen is any other coil?? Wow. Looking forward to hearing from you!!
Quote from: Sataur? on August 04, 2007, 08:23:23 PM
No, I did *not* mean that the device had to be *connected* in any to the AC mains, but merely that the wires that carry the AC voltage through your house give off a fluctuating EMF that can be inducted by any coils or bits of wire lying around, and can be picked up by oscilloscopes. Electric motors also give off an EMF as well, such as ceiling fans and such, but this may be less of a problem.
I would suggest putting the device in a box of copper mesh to block any external EMF's that may be interfering with the coils.
And regardless, if the frequency isn't 50-60 Hz then you don't have a problem. I wasn't accusing you of naivety, just merely offering a friendly reminder.
i understand your kindness, but you still do not understand.
There are no wires running thrue my house which are carrying any form of current therefore there cannot be interference from them.
i do not need to put it in a box because i have tried many frequency's already and i now know how deep the rabbit hole goes....
Marco.
Did you just connect two transformers together and feed them with slightly out of phase signals?
Hi God :)
I have taken a 500 v-0-500 v plate transformer and run it through a full wave silicon circuit then run it through a 5U4 electron tube rectifier.
Run the heater on a external transformer so not the winding from the same plate transformer, i have taken the 5 VAC from another one you can see it in the pic ,and adjust the frequency's of both and also you can try to connect them in reverse.
Quite simple.
Marco
If only I knew more about Tubes :P Oh well, what have you concluded from your experiements? Those look like kicks to me, but then again I've never made any myself so I don't know. But if I had to guess I'd say that when the frequency *clap* comes together...
https://www.tubeworld.com/index_high.htm
https://www.tubeworld.com/6005.htm
;D
i really need to do more testing tomorrow before i can make any conclusions, but Steven is right, the interaction is verry reveling.
i do not understand why i did not try this before.
Marco.
Your wave form looks interesting Marco.
Would be nice to see a drawing of your hookup though ;)
Is it anything like my simulation diagram below? (ignore the fact it was a sim, just wondering about the connections).
How I understand it is that you have run the 500-0-500 outputs through a diode (or two) first, then fed the 5UGB valve diodes, is that correct? On my diagram, there would be a diode in series with Rs1 and Rs2, as I only see 2 diodes in your photo.
Below I show two forms, one using a center-tapped filament transformer, and one with no center-tap.
Hmm, I wonder why your wave form does not look rectified? What voltage are you running your generators at? Perhaps the tube diodes are not really conducting, and hence not rectifying? There are no voltage indications on your scope shot, so it's difficult to deduce any further.
Where did you measure that wave form?
Cheers,
Darren
@marco
I can't remember where I read this but I can remember it saying something like " one of the great things about a vacuum tube is that the gate voltage can be recycled". So the question is, what if you concentrated on looping the input voltage so that it can be re-used in a loop thus producing more high voltage than is being consumed. That's where the OU is. If you consumed less power to run the tube then the power the tube produces.
Darren, the tube is conducting it is getting verry hot too i almost burned myself.
if it ain't the voltage it's the heat ;D
i did not know they would become that warm.
First i set the frequency then i adjust the voltage to what it should be on both channels.
the small sine looking wave represents the rectified but not smoothed out 500VDC.
i do not use chokes and capacitors so it it not a straight DC and i have placed a rather large resistor in between my digital scope to protect it as i do not want to destroy it.
the scope cannot handle the direct power and i was trying to solve this by stepping it down again thrue another transformer which was a stupid thing because of the DC,i wasn't thinking.
you image does show the setup exept for the diodes.
about the measuring points, Steven talked about the output of the tube and about the heater transformer, so i measure between the zero line of the plate transformer and one of the heater connections.
i am going to do more measurements on the heater transformer itself.
it does take some time to perform all these measurements and i need to write down what i am doing.
it's a fairly simple experiment ,i believe about anyone can do it taking saftey for the HV in account.
@wattsup,
thanks for the tip i will try some feedback as the experiments continue.
Yeah, that experiment he described confused me because I did not know what he meant by connecting two transformers in reverse of one another. I'm going to study your picture then, I guess. :)
I wonder if ol' SM still reads this board? I bet he would be thinking "Thank God someone actually did what I told them to do!!" Heh
hey we don't give up that easy ;D
it's a bit frustrating realizing all this natural power is lost isn't it?
combine that with the growing need of clean energy and i don't think there is much to choose.
i am doing this because i love every living creature on this planet aswell as for mother earth itself :)
and because i had a ham radio dad i was born and raized between wires ;D
so there is some desire to understand electronics in my blood aswell.
Now i am off to recharge my batteries for the next series experiments.
the mosfet bridge which feeds the transformers clips off meaning there is not enough power...which is normal since yesterday i could bake an egg on it.
Marco.
Yay, good luck Marco!! I just tore a lawnmower engine apart out of boredom today. I think I'll convert it to HHO since they pollute more than I car does 10 fold :o It's amazing how much lawnmower spit out into the environment!
Perfect frequency. Perfect sine waves. Therein lies the secret my friend...
:D
Garbage in is garbage out! As we programmers say!
Hi God :)
i am running the perfect sine wave into two class A fullwave mosfet circuits which are capable of pushing 400 Watts of power at 12 volt.
this 12volt goes into two step up transformers and these put out 230 volt at a adjustable frequency.
one of these two 230 volt signals go into the plate transformer and the other goes into the heater transformer.
there is not much disortion because of the quality of the mosfet circuit aswell as it is fed with stable battery power.
Marco.
@All,
So in his first successful trials, we know Steven used 3 old tube type generators run through a tube amplifier.
Were these generators commercial units? Probably yes. If so, were they square wave or sine wave generators? Perhaps they were Pulse Generators, as I believe there were a couple made in the tube days.
What kind of tube amplifier did he use? Was it a lab type, or consumer home units? Surely regardless of which, chances are pretty good they had an output transformer, which would limit the frequency response and "shape" of the pulses or square waves if that's what he was applying to the coils. There would likely be tons of overshooting and ringing.
It's quite possible Steven modified whatever amplifier he used to bypass the output transformer. This would eliminate the transformer induced problems.
These generators were also not likely synchronized, unless he specially designed something to accomplish this, but I highly doubt that.
What does that indicate to you about making catalyst?
Darren
well 3 independant sine waves with a harmonic relationship.
or better said, 3 independant rectified half sine waves....
and he probably used the tubes he had in his collection which were the vhf-rf amps.
recently someone said to hook the coils directly to the amp so i guess the output transformers were replaced by the coils.
Marco.
Quote from: z_p_e on August 07, 2007, 05:29:57 PM
@All,
So in his first successful trials, we know Steven used 3 old tube type generators run through a tube amplifier.
Were these generators commercial units? Probably yes. If so, were they square wave or sine wave generators? Perhaps they were Pulse Generators, as I believe there were a couple made in the tube days.
What kind of tube amplifier did he use? Was it a lab type, or consumer home units? Surely regardless of which, chances are pretty good they had an output transformer, which would limit the frequency response and "shape" of the pulses or square waves if that's what he was applying to the coils. There would likely be tons of overshooting and ringing.
It's quite possible Steven modified whatever amplifier he used to bypass the output transformer. This would eliminate the transformer induced problems.
These generators were also not likely synchronized, unless he specially designed something to accomplish this, but I highly doubt that.
What does that indicate to you about making catalyst?
Darren
old tube type generators means sine or smooth pulse...sine is the only way to achive harmonic perfection.
it might be interesting to search for old square wave generators...as far as i can tell they arent around.and the reference to them is vital.
I am really pleased that a few are going down this path which at first seems backward.
I am optimistic that help may arrive as tube inertia is created here..feel welcome with your hot bottles here.
Darren, does orcad have 6as7g and 6bq7,5ar4
i have only a few tubes in the multisim that i use ..perhaps i need to change my tool?
well done Marco
Quote from: Mannix on August 07, 2007, 06:23:47 PM
old tube type generators means sine or smooth pulse...sine is the only way to achive harmonic perfection.
it might be interesting to search for old square wave generators...as far as i can tell they arent around.and the reference to them is vital.
I am really pleased that a few are going down this path which at first seems backward.
I am optimistic that help may arrive as tube inertia is created here..feel welcome with your hot bottles here.
Darren, does orcad have 6as7g and 6bq7,5ar4
i have only a few tubes in the multisim that i use ..perhaps i need to change my tool?
well done Marco
Lindsay, you should know by now that I usually do my homework before I post something....well this time was no exception. I am already looking at designing my own tube gens, and have done quite a lot of digging.
"Old tube" does not mean
sine only ...not at all!
Harmonic perfection can be achieved in at least two ways, depending on your perspective. Mine is different perhaps.
There are several tube generators doing more than just sine....here are the ones I've been researching:
HP202ASine / Square.
Uses tube Schmitt for oscillator.
.008 ~ 1.2 kHz
HP209ASine / Square.
Up to 2 MHz
HP211ASquare only.
Up to 1 MHz
HP212A70ns Pulse Generator.
Uses Thyratron.
PRR up to 5 kHz only.
So you see, they were and
are out there. And this is only Hewlette Packard!
I have models for all those tubes you listed. You can get many tube models on the web as well. PM or email me with your wishlist, and I'll see what I have.
I am however at the moment, checking the integrity of the 6BQ7A model I have. I want to make sure negative grid bias is modeled properly.
Cheers,
Darren
If we are going to make some test equipment, would it be possible to make it round? Like the box all the compnents are in? That way we can put it in the middle of the ring and tune it from there, less distance for the wires to travel, too. My tube test circuit designs are all round in design so they fit right in the middle. I was using the first device Steve made that was in the black tool box in one of the videos as a reference.
SG.
I think you missed the point.
One of the reasons for testing with tubes is so the controller doesn't have to be placed in the center of the toroid!.
Therefore, I see no need to design a tube generator that is round for this purpose.
Darren
Well, just because it's made of tubes does not mean it is unsuceptible to interference from the coils!
sg
fets are inside of the tpu why? why are they called fets? do fets not stand for feild effect? transistors
tubes are outside the ring all of them
what is the reason for tubes? what will be diffrent in the ss units then the tube 1? hummmmm a spark gap??
does a tube not do both switch and have a spark type gap in a vacume a spark gap in a vacume with ss would be required to act the same as a tube
another thing if we intend to discharge a cap into a ring using freqs how many freqs do we have in a tpu?
well the sm 17 sedjusts that there 2 freqs cuz ther 2 caps being discharged into the center or the outter or both so if there 2 freqs then there 2 beat freqs for each freq wich might just be first fundamintal freq and second harmnic for the first beat freq then the second might be 3 harmonic and 4th haromonic or the ring is tuned just a bit more than the first fundumental freq say 7.3 hz then the first freq of the second beat freq would be 7.3 more than the first fundumntal freq of the first combo and for the second beat it would be second haromonic of the second fundumental freq so what would happin will there would be massicve ringing at 7.3 hz on the fundumental freqs and all harmonics
now if we add a 3 freq of high speed what happins not a beat freq just a stright freq at say 100k then that make manny haromonics i have seen 7th plus harominc with high speed or the speed is made on its own with the racing mags
i have an old square and sine wave generator tube powered but i dont think the generator is important ;)
i got verry intresting waves on my scope using my laptop and a verry simple proggie for osolations so i dont think a tube freq generator is required our freq generator must do more than 1 job ;)
it must osc and it must switch at the same time and maybe even more than that well yes more than that how about it is the "processor" of the tpu so it must control dc voltage to the controls it must supply ac to the collectors it must be the spark gap ans must be the timming control so the tube sounds like a verry busy part of the tpu ;)
steven makes a remark about the tpu goes somthing like this
you can have many currents in 1 wire only pertaing to there own source what might that mean?
that to me means ac and dc in the same wire maybe the collectors then keep the ac in them and only take the dc to the controls then back to there source or the end of the controls are open and it will now transmitt wirelessly as long as it is stoped b4 the end of the controls plus it would be transmittinf from the perpendicular controls if you look at the sm 17 it has in its center 2 coils of 2 controls each also what if this we sent power through collector outside ring then to the center to transmitt back to the collector kinda of makes me wonder because all of the wires running back to the center of the coil the sm 17 it must be ss because of the spark gaps on the back it is almost like it is 4 segments all the way through
is
is
well, Steven was using three tube based signal generators when he first strike those magical tones.
and that means i will use tube based eqipment too :)
here's a pic of the ancient triple varicaps i will use to build them :)
M.
I remember thoes for sure. Old radios. On a good note, I just got a pair of 1X2B 1/2 wave rectifiers. Rated at 22,000v peak. Sounds as if they were used for the HV on a crt or such. 1.25 v 200ma filament. Time to play!
thaelin
Quote from: -[marco]- on August 08, 2007, 08:12:36 AM
well, Steven was using three tube based signal generators when he first strike those magical tones.
and that means i will use tube based eqipment too :)
here's a pic of the ancient triple varicaps i will use to build them :)
M.
Dude I am so jealous of your tube equipment. Good luck on your experiments though! I will soon be joing you! By the way are those homemade or are they old models or...something else? Is there anyway I can get ahold of the same equipment you've got? (Signal generators and so forth)
ilin
no this 1X2 europe DY80 to 86 are jes for 22KV but was not Eadio , it was vor Television (Blach/White) . also an smalone only 6mmx6cm tube - Dy60 or 51 , US number vant remember jet ..
most build (in splug) in the horizomtal Line Transformer. to make the High Voltage for CRT Tube (Picture Screen)
After tgis it comes same als selenn rectiviers 16KV (abozt 6mm x 12cm ceramic within hunders of seleen diode wafers.
For stromger TV - Colot it guve som kind of GY 500 series. tube (See philips mullard telefungen
als in US in the 5 Volt range (# begins with 5)
In Radio only (usually)6x4 (ez41 m 89 81 90 enz)
for strong eqipments 5U4 5R4 and so on (all in the 500 Volt working range)
All Numer take from head , but i think all must be right so.
its are 50 jears gone , since i worked any day with this parts
G.Pese
Quote from: Super God on August 08, 2007, 11:31:09 AM
Quote from: -[marco]- on August 08, 2007, 08:12:36 AM
well, Steven was using three tube based signal generators when he first strike those magical tones.
and that means i will use tube based eqipment too :)
here's a pic of the ancient triple varicaps i will use to build them :)
M.
Dude I am so jealous of your tube equipment. Good luck on your experiments though! I will soon be joing you! By the way are those homemade or are they old models or...something else? Is there anyway I can get ahold of the same equipment you've got? (Signal generators and so forth)
Hi God :)
Those are real old parts and i found them in "the barn".
There were boxes full of them..
i paid 5euro for the three of them.
and the plate transformers i paid 25 euro each, i took two.
so that was about 30 euro total.
i will build the tube generators myself it is not that hard...
if you need anything i supose i could ship it but some are really heavy parts and i do not know where you live, i guess it's best for you to find "the old tube guy" in your area....
i know there are more around, and you will find them if you have to. :)
Marco.
The quest to find the old tube guy is on! I'll have to get my friend up here and put our Blues Brother's outfits on, we'll hop in the shag wagon and cruise aroud blaring the Peter Gunn theme song until we find out if there's anybody around here that has tubes. Haha!
i found him searching for a tube transformer on site's like ebay and such....
most of the times they will have some pieces for sale so you can call them and ask what they have.
M.
Quote from: Super God on August 08, 2007, 03:41:40 PM
The quest to find the old tube guy is on! I'll have to get my friend up here and put our Blues Brother's outfits on, we'll hop in the shag wagon and cruise aroud blaring the Peter Gunn theme song until we find out if there's anybody around here that has tubes. Haha!
Hi God :)
You can try talking to some of these folks, I,ll bet somebody knows where you can
find wharehouse full of old parts, that,s pretty much what they do there, restore
old televisions to working condition, audio to:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=24349649b4cc93d2254096026e70e9fa&f=36
dirt
:)
Thanks for the link! I'll check into that sometime! :D
a nice combo of freqs this in my vid that you will see is massive ringing and only posotive spikes and a plused perfect sine wave i used only 2 freqs on my laptop for this they were square waves and the freqs are 7.8 hz and 1000000hz
is
Quote from: innovation_station on August 08, 2007, 11:03:47 PM
a nice combo of freqs this in my vid that you will see is massive ringing and only posotive spikes and a plused perfect sine wave i used only 2 freqs on my laptop for this they were square waves and the freqs are 7.8 hz and 1000000hz
is
??? ??? ??? ::)
i thought it was nice on my scope compaied to what i have all seen so far with my expairments just thought i would show it
Usually the topics I create land in the second page rather quickly! I'm surprised no one else made a topic about TUBES before I did! Heh :D
I think Marco is right on track with his transformer experiement! Kicks with a sine wave...nifty.
You can all be completely certain that the kicks that Marco has ,are the kicks that are the tpu output.
created by interaction between different "pure" frequencies.
note that they are from seemingly independant sources.
what connects them?....the mind boggles
This was the first "discovery" that aroused Steven Mark's curiosity and led to his development of the TPU.
And to think, all we had to do was WHAT HE TOLD US TO DO IN THE FIRST PLACE. Ha!
Unfortunately I do not yet understand Marco's setup. I don't understand what Steven meant by connected transformers in 'reverse'...
hi God :) ,
Darren has modified the diagram i hope he posts it soon then you can see it.
it is the same as he posted a few pages back only with two added diodes in between the 500V 500V and the two plates.
Transformers in reverse just means one sine is gowing up while the other is going down.
like when you looze the Bass tones when you connect two speakers in reverse...
Marco.
Here is the circuit as per SM's description, and Marco's latest test.
To slightly alter the phase of one input, simply insert a capacitor (of sufficient voltage rating and capacity) in series with the Filament TX primary. To make the phases "in reverse of one another", simply reverse the primary leads of the Filament TX, and this will make them 180? out. The capacitor is not required for this second 180? test.
Don't worry that my 5U4GB symbol does not look like a tube diode. I was lazy when I built the part, but clearly labeled the Plate and Cathode on it. The dotted line extending around it indicates the complete package including the Filament itself and its associated resistance.
Don't get hung up on the transformer voltages I indicate for the B+ supply; substitute whatever transformer is necessary to achieve the +500V. As shown, the B+ supply is about +300V.
I would also suggest some more rugged silicone diodes in place of the 1N4007's I have shown (if possible). I just used them for convenience with my simulation. In reality though, the 1N4007 should work fine. Put a few 1N4007's in series on each side if you wish; that's what is done sometimes in the "real world".
Regards,
Darren
Darren, that is exactly how it was connected over here.
i did not use resistors but i do not think it will destroy the effect.
Thanks,
Marco.
Quote from: -[marco]- on August 11, 2007, 09:11:47 AM
Darren, that is exactly how it was connected over here.
i did not use resistors but i do not think it will destroy the effect.
Thanks,
Marco.
Hi Marco.
There are no "added" resistors in the circuit shown, other than the RL1. The resistors shown are only there
to account for the DC resistance of all the transformer windings, and the heater filament resistance.
Darren
For anyone who may have an input limit on their oscilloscope, I would suggest the following addon to the circuit to make it possible to take measurements and see what is going on at the output.
Ratt and RL1 provide a "divide-by-10" attenuator, so the most you should see on the output with the scope is about 50V peak. NOTE the resistor Wattage ratings!
Don't mess with this stuff guys unless you know what you are doing. :o
Also NOTE, that the resistances shown on the diagram such as Rf, Rs and Rp are not "added" resistors, they are simply there for the simulation to account for transformer winding DC resistances and the Filament resistance. Do not add these to your circuit, they are transparent and already part of the real components.
Darren
Darren,
i have just this up set up and as before no big kicks, yet either phase....yet
...tomorrow is another day. there are few very smallones...I will search those out
did your sim show anything?
Quote from: z_p_e on August 11, 2007, 09:16:36 AM
Quote from: -[marco]- on August 11, 2007, 09:11:47 AM
Darren, that is exactly how it was connected over here.
i did not use resistors but i do not think it will destroy the effect.
Thanks,
Marco.
Hi Marco.
There are no "added" resistors in the circuit shown, other than the RL1. The resistors shown are only there to account for the DC resistance of all the transformer windings, and the heater filament resistance.
Darren
Okay Darren, Thanks.
i do not know if it is case sensitive so i will note that in the experiment i stabilized the plate voltage up to 500Volts and from the other plate transformer i used the 6,3 Volt 3A winding for the heater.
Marco.
:)
nice work all im happy to see the tube intrest has growen
my cold bottle will soon turn hot im working on my new gk4 ring 4" model i will try my tube on that ring first ;)
is
Quote from: Mannix on August 11, 2007, 09:58:19 AM
Darren,
i have just this up set up and as before no big kicks, yet either phase....yet
...tomorrow is another day. there are few very smallones...I will search those out
did your sim show anything?
Lindsay,
The simulation of the posted circuit did not show anything unusual....simply a full-wave rectified 60 Hz, riding on a slight modulation of 60 Hz from the 5V filament voltage. Introduction of the silicone diodes did not change anything significantly.
I also tried 100 Hz for the Plate transformer, and 20 Hz for the Filament, and still nothing unusual.
I tried changing the phase in all cases too, and still nothing.
It's interesting that your setup did not show anything similar to Marco's.
Let's hope he can redo the test with only the attenuator on the output so we can see if the "3rd component" is still there, and if so, how or why it is being created.
@Marco,
So you adjusted the "Plate" generator until you had 500V peak, then used the "Filament winding only" from a second transformer to supply your Filament?
Yes that should be OK. In theory I see no problem with that.
Darren
yes well i did not have a 5Volt external transformer to feed the heater so, i decided i could use another plate transformer and use the 6,3 Volt 3A winding only.
i would first set the frequency and then adjust the voltage untill both transformers were running on the voltages which were described in the experiment.
Marco.
in the beginning i was a bit worried about Steven's Quote:
"The kick is there wether the filament is hot or cold."
Because it only showed up when the tube was hot.
But then i think of what he also said:
"You cant get to it or use it for anything without applying a heating voltage to the cathode or what is the cathode potential of the tube.
So, you put in a small voltage of 5 volts AC 60 Hz which heats up the cathode and welcomes the electron stream from the plate."
and:
"Now you know that the 5U4 requires 5 volts AC at 3 amps for its heater to gather the electrons and complete the circuit."
So, i was hoping to see the kicks are there hot or cold, but they only show up when the tube is hot.....
Marco.
Hi Marco.
Quote"The kick is there wether the filament is hot or cold."
Because it only showed up when the tube was hot.
Be careful with what Steven was referring to there. He was only using the filament as an example of a piece of wire in this case, and this goes back to his first experiment with a wire and voltage source. Am I wrong?
In your two scope shots, I assume this is still with your filtered output? Or is this through the attenuator?
Also, the first shot is taken just after you throw the power to the setup, and the second is after power has been on for a few seconds...correct?
If this is correct, did the kicks appear gradually as the filament warmed up, or did they just suddenly appear?
Darren
Now all we have to do is make the kicks appear alot more frequently! This is great. :D
sm uses only 1 tube in the tpu ???
it is a dubble triode tube first triode sends signal and the second triode is the phase invertor
hummmmm
i guess it might be possiable
is
hey marco i used a magnet as my tube in my last test kind of thing and kicks soon as i put power to the mag i saw huge kicks hummmm
sm or 1 of the engineers said that someone might find a way to tap into the huge power in a much simpiler way than the basic tpu ;)
it will be done with magnets
is
i will take a pic of what im talking of and what i did to get big spikes with only 12 volts and a mag
for some reason i cannot get the same results but i will keep at it and when i do i will post it
;D
ha!!
i got it to work agin and when you hold the power wire in the right place it vibrates verry quick and a tonne of kicks or spikes the faster it vibrates the more the kicks and my coil gets hot!!!
is
a pic?
oh btw
thease are only posotive spikes and verry large ones my scope is on its lowest setting
;D ;D
sombody else must try this!!!!!
i am going to shoot a vid of this so all can see what i see this is 1 of the coolest things i have done with the tpu since i have started working with it
is
shooting vid it is like a mecanichial spark gap with mag waves as porpualtion like the {hummer generator i designed }
i had a hard time shooting the vid it wants to quit all the time but when it is in the right place it is wild
the vid
well that vid sux im going to work on another 1
ok here is a vid of many spikes it is hard for me to hold the cam and make it sing at the same time
i can get many many more spikes too than what you see in the vid i can have it run so fast it is almost conbstant on my scope the spikes
ist
well i put the magnet inside the ring and the zaps are stronger snaping is loulder and i cant tell if the kicks are bigger or not they are way off the scope to see what is going on
im making a new vid of the mag inside the ring with even more spikes the most i have seen yet from this expariment
is
the vid
i have to take a break from this it is highly frustrating i had it many times and lose it many times easly hard to get it just right
Sounds like you have to "tune" it. WHAT?!!!!
*I think* that we are dealing with ether flow here, instead of electron flow. It's an idea to consider. Flame-like discharge from the device? Sounds like tesla to me, but again it's just an idea, probably one that everyone here has heard of before.
well back to the tubes just had to show what can be done with some magnets and 12 volts
im winding my last gk4 ring it will be all steel gk4 4" model
i gave up on the vid of the magnets inside the ring because it is just too hard to keep it kickin bigtime and shoot the vid but try it if you all have some time
when i play with that setup it makes me think off and on's are the tpu way
is
There are also some excellent old books about tubes on Radau5's Vacuum Tube Site (http://radau5.ch/valves.html), both in English and German. I've put all the PDFs in a Zip file for easier download (http://rapidshare.com/files/48788862/radau5-tubes.zip.html) [87 MB].
Many more links can be found in the diyAudio Forum Tube Learning thread (http://diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=38278) (it includes a link to the Safety Practices thread (http://diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=30172) that includes some really good advice about high voltage -- however, you might not want to read it just before going to bed...).
8) ;D 8)
hello all sorry but it seams i forgot to post the best vid with the magnet inside the ring in this vid you can see my mag spark gap in the ring and on my scope you see square waves with big leading spikes
is
Hello Everyone,
Does anyone know of any good sine wave oscillator circuits that use a pentode like the 6AU6? I'm working on building the tube stage to connect to the power supply I just made (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,712.msg44432.html#msg44432) and I want to experiment with function generator-driven tubes, and oscillator circuit-driven tubes. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
God Bless,
Jason O
Jason, an all
google "hartley oscillator"...very clean ..easy to
i have used triodes put pentodes are almost the same.
I have also made some blocking oscillators..spikey!
You really wont need a circuit once you get started just bias the thing and add l,c
You can think of them as a high voltage transistor that needs its grid(base) biased negative with respect to the cathode (emitter).
they do not fully conduct in the conventional sense and they dont blow up!
theres lots of old info on them..
it is great that you are on this path .if any body is thinking about it is a good time to begin.
just find some old tube equipment and you will most likley have everything that you need.
Lindsay
Hey Guys,
I just finished building my tube circuit and before I fire it up (and hopefully not blow it up), I thought I'd take some before and after pictures. The circuit I made is going to be powered from my function generator and I will test it with square and sine waves. I'll let you know if something bursts into flames!
God Bless,
Jason O
nice work jason you waste so little time for you i think your luck will be much and in a short time congrats on your chooise to use tubes
;D ;D ;D
now how many more people can tubes rubb off on the more the better ~~~~~many hands light work~~~~~
ist
Jason,
a better aproach is to mount the socket on a chassis so that your leads are short.
particularly the grid...read about the miller effect...same as mosfets.
The last of your trouble is blowing it up....thats for the silicone heads.
Ok Everyone,
I am officially sold on the tubes! They are sooo nice and smooth! Below I posted some scope shots of a square wave, sine wave, and pulse wave that I input into it with my function generator. I must say that my amplifier circuit sucks really bad because the waveforms are all badly distorted but I was very impressed with the pulses this thing put out. For the negative pulses, I was able to swing 226V in only 230 ns! Just to give you an idea of what that means. Consider the MOSFET driver circuits we have been harping on for so long:
For my SS drivers, I was runing on 9V and was able to get switching speeds of 30ns on average with my IRF840 FETs. Slew rate is calculated by dividing the voltage gradient by the rise time (roughly) and gives you a way to compare different switching speeds and voltages. For my MOSFETs, the slew rate was 450 MV/s.
As for the tube (which by the way isn't even working at it's best yet). I swung 226V in 230 ns. The rise time may not seem like all that but the actual slew rate is 982.6 MV/s! Almost double the best time the MOSFET can do. And this is without even trying to make it work better!
Guys, the tubes are not that hard to play with. I for one just need a good amplifier circuit to use since the one I made isn't so hot.
@Lindsay,
Yes I realize that having the tube floating in the air is a bad thing. I will actually build it into a nice project box setup as soon as I get the amplifier circuit I want working. For now ,I'm just experimenting with different configs to see how it behaves. The tubes that I supposedly have a bandwidth of 25 MHz which should be plenty to work the coils that I have.
I'm sold on the tubes now :) I just need to learn how to make 'em work for our purposes now.
God Bless,
Jason O
awsome jason i knew you would be
now afew words we should listen to the words of sauron i went digging and this is what i found
@sauron sorry to repost your words but it must be done
is
thease are saurons words from pg 40 of lotr thred
What is a valve?
Thermionic emission
Before transistors became common, all electronics relied
on the valve, there were even computers using valves!
All metals have free electrons within their crystal
structure, so some of them must be at the surface of the
metal, but they are bound there by the nuclear forces
between them and the adjacent atoms. However, the
atoms and electrons are constantly vibrating due to thermal
energy, and if the metal is heated sufficiently, some
electrons may gain sufficient kinetic energy to overcome
the attractive forces of the atoms and escape.
As a consequence of these escaping electrons, an electron
?cloud?, or space charge, forms above the surface of
the heated metal cathode. Once this cloud reaches a certain
size, it will prevent other electrons attempting to
escape from the surface because like charges repel, and
an equilibrium is therefore reached.
Some metals have stronger forces binding their electrons
than others, so stripping an electron from their surface
requires more energy, and the cathode has to be
heated to a higher temperature:
Melting point of pure tungsten: 3410?C
Pure tungsten cathode (transmitter valves and lightbulbs): 2700?C
Thoriated tungsten cathode (small transmitter valves): 1700?C
Oxide coated cathode (receiving valves): 1000?C
As can be seen, the operating temperature is sufficiently
high that the cathode could literally burn, so the structure
of the valve is enclosed in glass and the air is evacuated.
We now introduce a positively charged plate, or anode,
into the enclosure. Electrons will be attracted from the
cloud, and will be accelerated through the vacuum to be
captured by the charged anode, and thus a current flows.
The cloud has now been depleted, and no longer repels
electrons quite so strongly, so more electrons escape from
the surface of the cathode to replenish it. Current flow is
unidirectional because only the positively charged anode
is able to attract electrons, and only the cathode can emit
electrons. We now have a rectifier, but it requires rather
more than 0.7 V to switch it on; typically 50 V is needed.
In order to control current flow, we interpose a grid or
mesh of wires between cathode and anode, resulting in a
structure with three electrodes known as a triode.
If the grid is negatively charged, then it will repel electrons,
and although there is a space charge above the cathode,
no electrons reach the positively charged anode
because they are unable to overcome the repulsion of the
grid. The grid to cathode voltage Vgk therefore controls
the number of electrons reaching the anode, or anode current
Ia.
Mains borne interference is not a thing to be taken lightly.
Spikes of 1 kv and above are a common (in some areas frequent)
occurrence and this can and does damage unprotected equipment.
In addition to all man-made interference, there is another source
which will always be beyond any kind of legal
regulation and control ? the weather.
Electric storms and even lightning strikes make their presence
felt through the mains.
Quote from: Mannix on August 15, 2007, 06:27:05 PM
Jason, an all
google "hartley oscillator"...very clean ..easy to
Lindsay
at first there was the Armstrong oscillator.
Then came the Hartley oscillator and this design was improved to a Colpitts oscillator.
all of the above show resonance issues just above and below the tuned frequency.
Then came along the Pierce Miller oscillator and this was said to not have those harmonic properties.
These were the most stable oscillators.
the circuits are quite simple.
if you need any i can do a hand writing.
Marco.
for all of you people here that think all i do is talk
a few coils im my pictures and just some of my gear there are more coils i have build but for the most part this is all of them to date
so turbo top it big guy
i have spent much time on this and plan on spending a LOT more time with the tpu!!!
isteam!!
dear god!
Judging by the odds of the picture, I believe you got something or many useful items in there.
;D ;D
yes i have some time spent winding coils ;D ;D
do not ever think i wont get it to work cuz i will!!!!
is
well all it is now time!!!!! i am setting up my table and gearing up to play with my single tube yes the 6bq7a tube the 1 steven says he uses for input and phase invertor so with some luck i will not hurt myself and maybe it might just work out for me
THE TIME IS NOW
@IS,
WOW man. Maybe you should start a TPU loan service with all those spare coils you have laying around! I'm only up to my 8th iteration :o.
@Marco,
The hand drawing would be extremely helpful as I am getting frustrated looking around the net for suitable circuits. How do you figure out what cap and resistor values to use for the individual tubes you have? Is there a nifty utility program out there anywhere that can help determine what values to use? (I'm guessing not :()
God Bless,
Jason O
I'm having a string of good luck in regards tomy tube endeavour.
Recently I checked an old guitar amplifier I have that was somewhat butchered and thus does not work, and found out that it uses a 5U4GB tube in the PSU. The amp is missing the speaker output tranformer, but I'm sure I'll be able to find a suitable replacement later when I'm done with the experiments. This amp is quite rare I believe, it's a Valco Stage Star, with 2 12" speakers.
Then, today out of the blue, someone at my job was doing some housecleaning from down in the basement where they keep all the old junk equipment, and they were throwing out an old tube ultrasonic alarm system. Yes you read that right. Must be one of the first alarm systems ever designed. It's in good shape, and of course in combination with the guitar amp PSU, I'll be able to use the filament transformer from it to replicate the experiment Marco was doing.
I just need to find out what type of filtering circuit he was using on the output.
Cheers,
Darren
Jason, i took a picture of the colpitts osc from the old book as i believe this is the most stable oscillator.
There isn't really much to it.
sorry for the fuzzy images.
i just grab some caps and test what it does.
Marco.
Think this might be a good read for the tubers.
http://www.ieee.org/portal/cms_docs_iportals/iportals/aboutus/history_center/oral_history/pdfs/Doring233.pdf
My late father was one of the first TV techniciens in Montreal area and we still have his bench intact with drawers of tubes. I still remeber my Traynor amp with two 6CA7 tubes. Man did it ever blast.
Quote from: wattsup on August 17, 2007, 02:07:50 PM
Think this might be a good read for the tubers.
http://www.ieee.org/portal/cms_docs_iportals/iportals/aboutus/history_center/oral_history/pdfs/Doring233.pdf
My late father was one of the first TV techniciens in Montreal area and we still have his bench intact with drawers of tubes. I still remeber my Traynor amp with two 6CA7 tubes. Man did it ever blast.
My Traynor amp has 4 6CA7's, and quite some time ago I rebuilt it as a 100W Marshall head. Yeah it kicks butt. :) I have to say I really like all my old tube guitar amps...even that particular smell inside them...:)
Darren
Hey, this is weird!
Lots of guitar players here .or "would be" ones?
I started in electronics at 14 because my guitar amp blew up and i had to fix it..it seemed that i was better at fixing amps than playing!..it sure paid more!
right now i am better at playing than TPU's but that can change!
Now here I am back with the tubes..a bit greyer,and another challenge that involves harmonics and music of sorts Perhaps ...de ja vu?...
The weekend is here..any more players for the tube group?
the more that play in this band the better chance of getting some harmony..somewhere.
we will know it when we hear it.
there will be some terrible noise of course but that's just learning.
look around you for that old junk tv, cro, radio, its mostly all there
Lindsay
This may seem like a really dumb statement, but...I never knew that ubes were so large. :o
I'm glad lots of people are using tubes to start with!
Hey Marco,
Thanks for the schematic. I have one question about the first picture which I circled below. What is that component?
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: Mannix on August 17, 2007, 07:51:38 PM
Hey, this is weird!
Lots of guitar players here .or "would be" ones?
I started in electronics at 14 because my guitar amp blew up and i had to fix it...
Lindsay
I'm certain that there are 100 or more guitarists here that would blow me away, but here's a little sample of the Traynor-gone-Marshall amp I rebuilt....
Ahh....tubes.... 8)
Quote from: Jdo300 on August 17, 2007, 10:26:03 PM
Hey Marco,
Thanks for the schematic. I have one question about the first picture which I circled below. What is that component?
God Bless,
Jason O
Jason,
That looks like a spark gap or arc suppressor. I wouldn't worry about it because it's there for protection only I would think.
Darren
@Jdo300
Those two white dots are likely the output terminals. Usually the output is isolated from the load with a capacitor to keep plate voltage off the antenna or the next tube stage.
Yeah, I think BEP is correct.
Funny they didn't include an output decoupling cap ::)
yes, the two dots are the output terminals.
M.
Marco,
Have you yet had any success redoing your transformer/5U4GB experiment with the suggestions I made?
You also mentioned recently that you used a couple 100k pots and a 30k resistor. How exactly did you have these connected? And the capacitor value?
Darren
Marco,
I have done some analysis of your posted "kicks" wave form, and done a simulation with the circuit as well to get a rough idea of the capacitor you were using on your output.
First, I tried with a series 100k and shunt 30k resistor on the output, and found that a value of about 0.047uF put me in the ball park of what your waveform looks like, minus the kicks of course.
Secondly, look at your annotated wave form below. Analysis of it revealed that your plate sine generator could not have been 100 Hz, but was 50 Hz. Is this correct?
Remember that the rectified output will be twice the frequency of the input...so 100/2 = 50 Hz.
Darren
Darren,
i did not use a capacitor on the output i just connected as much resistance as i could find to protect the scope in series.
The first thing which caugt my eye was that the kick appears to be at the end of every top of the wave.
if it was really a output with two waves mixed, there should also be peaks between the wave toppings due to the diffrence in frequency's, but as you can see this was not the case.
i still need to reconnect the setup.
Marco.
I see.
So either you had a very large series resistance there, or the input capacitance to your probe and scope is relatively high, because definately there is some LPF effect there judging by the rounded bottom of the wave form.
Where is the 0V line in that scope shot, and what was the V/div setting?
Darren
@all , there have problems
to find the right tube
to find the datascheets .
to see the characteristics.
the best (german) collection you find in:
http://www.shinjo.info/frank TUBE DATASHEETS
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-4939521797516461861 pyramide trawoeger
atention most tubes are from different manufacturers avaiable
if you chose the PHILIPS Datashe --- that is engl germ and french
Gustav Pese
I used them professionel .
some types in my stock
http://beepworld.de/members29/pesetrier/halbleiter-semicond.htm
Hey Marco,
Thanks for the clarified image. Is that coil in the top right corner of the diagram just a choke for the B+? Does that book give you any rough ideas for the component values?
God Bless,
Jason O
hi Jason
The book only covers the parts for building radio's.
I have read it a couple of times and i will read it again because it is as if i keep reading new things in it.
The coil you mentioned is indeed a choke to prevent oscillations to the Hv line.
Marco.
Quote from: z_p_e on August 18, 2007, 02:28:41 PM
I see.
So either you had a very large series resistance there, or the input capacitance to your probe and scope is relatively high, because definately there is some LPF effect there judging by the rounded bottom of the wave form.
Where is the 0V line in that scope shot, and what was the V/div setting?
Darren
The scope is a self built kit i took over from somebody who assembled it.
I was disapointed by it's operation and it keeps giving callibration errors, therefore i only use it to examine the wave form.
normally i just push the buttons untill it gives a clear image of the wave form, not paying too much attention to the settings, and that is all i have to play with.
when i was at the old barn with the old guy i saw in his barn a old cathode ray scope from the millitairy, it was missing some knobs and i was wondering if it still worked.
i left it there but i am seriously thinking about going to get it since it always turns out "the old stuff is the best stuff"
Marco.
marco what is the name of the osc circuit you posted
i have many digital old tube radio books on my laptop with hundreds of schmatics in them
i can have a look and see if i have the same circuit with a better description
is
Hi,
The oscillator is called a Colpitts oscillator.
There is another oscillator in the books which is better but it deals with crystals and therefore it is hard to adjust in frequency.
It is used as an example for a radio transmitter which has to be extremly stable.
Then i think about what steven said about:
"sorry, these are not piezo stacks,however they look like it."
and
"you create several frequency's within a space of the collector coil's circumference"
and when he mentions the tube you own which is actually a Rf amplifier,
"you should hear how crystal clear the frequency's are.....
He talks about cancelling the flux, but would that mean the magnetic flux?
I did read somewhere something about transmitting in order to recieve, and i am doing a little study on the regeneration principle in which the reciever sweeps past and over the center frequency thousants of times per second and they sure notice it's impotant to make sure the local oscillator doesnt go into transmitting mode itself because of interferance with other recievers etc...
Marco.
QuoteQuote from: -[marco]- on Today at 12:57:18 PM
Hi Darren,
This is simply explained,
The high voltage from the plate transformer is connected to the heater transformer.
but it is only connected to one end of the winding,therefore it is not a closed circuit.
That was a bit confusing to me and as i remember correctly i took a 100kpot in series with a 30k resistor in series between the high voltage output of the tube and the scope.
i was hoping to scale the voltage down and as you know at that point i was not familiar with the shunt circuit you pointed out to me.
Anyway ,the signal was too large to fit the screen of the scope so i decided to disconnect the ground wire.
Beautiful Kicks appeard and i remember thinking this was a bit of a new area to me because i am used to work with the ancient "closed loop"
Marco.
Wow, Marco. Now I'm slightly confused. I think these were some details that may have been worth mentioning a lot earlier Cheesy Huh
The high voltage from the plate transformer is connected to the heater transformer.
Yes it is, through the tube rectifier, not directly.
but it is only connected to one end of the winding,therefore it is not a closed circuit.
The tube heater filament, which is also the cathode, is connected to both ends of the filament transformer secondary, so I do not see how this is true.
Anyway ,the signal was too large to fit the screen of the scope so i decided to disconnect the ground wire.
The fact that the signal was still too large makes perfect sense. Which ground wire did you disconnect...the scope ground lead?
If you were then measuring the output with an ungrounded scope, then what was the scope using as a reference? Is your scope battery operated or plugged into the grid?
Even if your scope was powered off the grid, you still would have no reference to your circuit because it is all isolated by the transformers. ?
Help me out please....I don't want to be confused about what you are doing.
Darren
QuoteDarren,
The circuit was fed by a truck battery.
The Scope was fed by a seperate car battery.
No Grid connection invloved.
Because i could not see the waveform on the scope, i disconnected the ground wire which normally was on the zero voltage line of the plate transformer.
The tube heater filament, which is also the cathode, is connected to both ends of the filament transformer secondary, so I do not see how this is true.
are you saying the 500VDC is coupled to the heater transformer?
I ask because i still do not completly understand how we can couple 500VDC on top of the 5VAC.
as i look at the drawing it seems as if the high voltage which is also the output, is connected to one end of the filament only.
Marco.
OK, so you lifted the centre-tap from ground on the plate transformer secondary, and it was floating, correct?
Yes, the +500V tube output is connected-to and "riding-on" the 5VAC filament voltage on the filament secondary in this case. Question: can you have two inductors in series, drive a different AC signal into each end and measure
something in the middle where they are connected?...Yes, of course. Can you then change one AC source to a DC source and still measure
something at their connection?..Yes, you still can.
Yes the output is connected to one side of the filament transformer secondary, but the rectified output is available at either side, so it does not matter. It all forms a closed circuit.
Darren
PS. Let me see if anything goes funny if I lift the centre-tap ground in my sim.
well a long time ago i mentioned crystals because of there overtones and there ability to osc from magnetic waves also as filters but there some programable crystals out there thouse and the use of an atmega 128 chip {the free tv ones } i found a pattened a long time ago regarding what i felt at the time was the controler pattened for the tpu and i posted it since then i have gone through 2 computers crashing and stuff and i deleted my post of it there was a total of 12 pattends i found but saw them all only twice and managed to fins only 3 or 4 agin the othere were never found agin and i spent many hours looking
now im looking for a circuit that meets that criculam
from the old books
for a simple tube osc it might be possible that it is really only 1 freq used in the tpu and simplu modified varryations of
a question has any one plused the same freq in 2 dirrections at the same time?? ?? ?? in the same coil?? if so outcome?
and if we put a crystal in the mix to make an overtone of the freq we would have more interactions in the same wire the higher harmonics
and if we put 2 crystals with diodes 1 for positive and 1 for negitive harmonics would we not at some point saturate that collector wire with a supream amount of kicks
ok i realy have to stop thinking
im looking
Well, I lifted the centre-tap ground and of course it didn't work.
With only 2 diodes, there is no reference point. You need 4 diodes if your secondary is fully floating such as would be the case here. All I saw was a tiny sine wave at the output...about 50mVp....so no surprise.
So Marco, I'm not sure what you were getting there. To be honest, it all looks ok except that you had no filter, yet clearly it is filtered, and second, you had the kicks, which is a mystery right now.
Looking forward to seeing your second round of test measurements.
Darren
yeah, me too
in any case, i am certain the transformers were fed with perfect sine waves.
much more clear than if i would fed them by any mains supply.
and we now do have confirmation the kicks are a Bemf type of happening.
Thanks 4 the explenation.
Can you also have two currents,in the same wire, running against each other?
Same Question as William just posted.
Marco.
Hi Marco.
Well, I'm not certain that the kicks you are seeing are from bemf. Could you explain your rationale here?
In regards to different currents in the same wire, I would say absolutely there can be. In fact to me, I see two distinctly different ways this may occur.
If we are dealing with similar wave forms and frequencies, then the current in a wire being sourced from both ends is simply the potential difference between the ends at any moment in time, divided by the wire impedance, assuming that the two sources exhibit zero output impedance in each. Also, this is assuming that each source is commoned at the same point i.e. their grounds are tied together.
So in this scenario, two identical sources that are perfectly in phase and amplitude, will yield zero current in the wire.
A second manner in which different currents may appear simultaneously in the same wire involves the frequency content of each source. I won't go into details, but suffice it to say that currents travel down a wire at a skin depth that is proportional to the frequency components that make up each source.
Taking an extreme example, assume one source is a 10 GHz sine wave, and the second source is a 60 Hz sine wave. Each source current could exist largely unaffected by the other because one will travel mostly on the outer skin of the wire, whereas the other source will have its current evenly distributed through the wire cross-section.
Darren
Quote from: -[marco]- on August 18, 2007, 03:31:04 PM
I did read somewhere something about transmitting in order to recieve,
Marco,
I believe this is the info you are referring to
http://amasci.com/tesla/tesceive.html
<snip from website>
By manipulating the EM fields, we can force an electrically-small receiving antenna to behave as if it was very, VERY large. The secret is to intentionally impress an artificial AC field upon the receiving antenna. We'll transmit in order to receive, as it were. Conventional half-wave antennas already do exactly this because their electrons can slosh back and forth, generating their own EM fields.
Kent
Hi,
This mechanism would seem different from that which generates the BEMF effect, I am convinced that this basic RF sucking is not the same as the BEMF effect which according to Tom Bearden is caused by bringing in energy from the Dirac Sea around a dipole. I do not think this applies to TPU's as would it not affect local RF and lead to lose of say TV or Radio signals in the local area or other signals to which the antenna was tuned via the effect.
No, i ment to "cause" induction by feeding out of phase signals into the coil.
i have the article somewhere ,i will see if i can find it.
M.
well all i just cant seam to let go of the magnets i must play more i thought i was ready for the tube but i am not
i looked at my books marco and im still looking have not found it yet but thease books are of many many pages much to read
im trying somthing new to me to see what will hapin in my next expairment im using a tuned coil 4" well i will post a picture if results are of intrest
is
Quote from: z_p_e on August 18, 2007, 09:20:20 PM
Hi Marco.
Well, I'm not certain that the kicks you are seeing are from bemf. Could you explain your rationale here?
In regards to different currents in the same wire, I would say absolutely there can be. In fact to me, I see two distinctly different ways this may occur.
If we are dealing with similar wave forms and frequencies, then the current in a wire being sourced from both ends is simply the potential difference between the ends at any moment in time, divided by the wire impedance, assuming that the two sources exhibit zero output impedance in each. Also, this is assuming that each source is commoned at the same point i.e. their grounds are tied together.
So in this scenario, two identical sources that are perfectly in phase and amplitude, will yield zero current in the wire.
A second manner in which different currents may appear simultaneously in the same wire involves the frequency content of each source. I won't go into details, but suffice it to say that currents travel down a wire at a skin depth that is proportional to the frequency components that make up each source.
Taking an extreme example, assume one source is a 10 GHz sine wave, and the second source is a 60 Hz sine wave. Each source current could exist largely unaffected by the other because one will travel mostly on the outer skin of the wire, whereas the other source will have its current evenly distributed through the wire cross-section.
Darren
Hi Darren,
i am sorry but i still cannot see the 500VDC closed loop on the heater transformer coil.
i have been thinking about it all day and it is very confusing i canot see it inside my head.
the zero voltage line is not connected and only one of the two plates will conduct at a time, so i do not see how this can be closed looped,i can try however to measure dc voltage on the htr transformer.
if it was a closed loop we would basicly short out the high voltage on the 5VAC winding.
I do not know if you did read that someone mentioned the bemf like kicks i described were the output of the tpu, so in my opinion thats some sort of clue there.
it could be two waves traveling against each other cancelling out each other at specific area's giving rise to a huge bemf spike.
i guess this can be done in one wire aswell as a bifilair coil.
I do not know if my spikes are bemf spikes but i was thinking this because they sure look like it.
Also i have been told the skin effect is a fairytale because the electrons only travell on the outside of the conductor where the electrons can jump over because there is not an atom next to it so this is the only place where they are not bond.
inside the conductor all electrons are bond, so the only thing which differs at frequency is the space between the circulair pathways outide the conductor, or so the man explained, but i'm not sure about that either however i do can imagine that in my head.
it's just to small to take a picture of it :)
Marco.
yes marco
.
i remember yesterday i was going to answer that qustion for you all but my laptop did not work i have been fighting with it for a few days now but i had that answer in plain view in my mind but i will start to think of what i was going to write yester day i nkow it made all the sence total it will come back to me must read a trigger first!!!!
i will be right back with the answer
ok guys remember the statment from sm about 5 volts ac and 500 dc ok i think it is an expairment but i think it is an explnation more so just saying that we can have ac and dc in the same collector with no problem and only going where we want them to
ok ac say 5 v and dc say 12v into collector #1 then the dc goes to the control coils but they both set up a mag feild in the collector on there way in then the dc controls the ac like the mag amp then they would enter the next coil combined seting up the top magfeild and the voltage would be increased in the ac and
well i had a much better way to explain my thoughts yester day but i tryed
any how do you all here think we are ready for a public tpu?? i dont think we are
is
Marco.
About all I can say is the rectifier circuit works, and has or did fo 50 years.
In one case with the floating filament secondary, it causes the B+ output to ride up and down on this 5VAC waveform, but in the end is all filtered out.
In the case where the filament secondary has a centre-tap, the B+ output actually comes out from here, so clearly the HV rectified power goes through the filament secondary before producing an output...just as SM said himself. There is no "modulating" 5VAC on the B+ because it is a balanced circuit due to the centre-tap.
It's a simple circuit and nothing really confusing about it.
Now, in the case where the Plate transformer centre-tap is removed, this poses an odd situation, because theoretically, you should not get rectification this way.
Try this easy test. Remove the tube rect. and just use the plate transformer with the silicone diodes. Ground the centre-tap. You now have a nice FWR output yes? OK, now remove the centre-tap and see what happens on your output.
With this setup, you have totaly lost your reference and the scope (or meter) should see virtually nothing. See the graphic below.
With the tube rectifier in place, the situation should not be any different.
I would encourage you to take a step back and try the traditional circuit first and verify it all works as designed. Then begin to change things to see if you can find out what is causing these apparent kicks.
Darren
in my expairments kicks have only been created with off and on pluses weather it be a relay a mag osc a square wave gen a spark gap but those seam to be the only way i get kicks but i used a 12 v adaptor pluged into the wall so mains switch to dc i have never used pure dc batteries for any expairments
is
.
in my tube it is like this, and only one plate conducts during a half cycle and the other during the other half, therefore i cannot see a 500VDC closed loop on the coil of the htr transformer.
it must be me who is going nuts.
i will measure the ac aswell as the dc voltage on the htr transformer coil.
i do see how the 5VAC can combine with the HV dc output, but i do not see how the 500VDC combines with the 5VAC in the htr coil.
Marco.
.
Marco,
The heater coil is floating with respect to the B+ output, so it floats along with it. In that respect there is no closed circuit with the B+, but why is that relevant anyway?
i was just about to put the 500VDC directly on to the filament to see what it would do. ::)
if there is no closed loop it cannot combine.
unless there is some sort of electrostatic coupling between the windings which can happen at high voltage.
it is the diffrence between two terminals and a closed loop ,and one hot terminal in an open circuit.
that is relevant because Steven says it travels through the coils of the htr transformer and combines with the 5VAC.
from the beginning of the experiment untill now i did not understand what he ment.
Marco.
Quote from: pese on August 19, 2007, 01:15:28 PM
@marco
i hope the red wires are your heater filament ,
if so , you can use ONE side of the heater wire to take the negative supply voltage out. (that include an small 2,5 Volt AC ripple voltage , if no C.T heater Transfo is
used , or special to eliminate this .
This is ONLY , IF YOU USE "DIRECT HEATED TUBES WITHOUT additional Cathode in in.
If you using Tubes with cathode you must take the Negative Power from Cathode (never from filament wires !
The positve Voltage you will find on C.T from High-voltage Transformator.
It is 100 (120) Hertz pulsed DC.
Gustav Pese
Hi Pese, it has only two cathode wires which is also heater in serials.
M.
Quote from: -[marco]- on August 19, 2007, 02:00:00 PM
i was just about to put the 500VDC directly on to the filament to see what it would do. ::)
if there is no closed loop it cannot combine.
unless there is some sort of electrostatic coupling between the windings which can happen at high voltage.
it is the diffrence between two terminals and a closed loop ,and one hot terminal in an open circuit.
that is relevant because Steven says it travels through the coils of the htr transformer and combines with the 5VAC.
from the beginning of the experiment untill now i did not understand what he ment.
Marco.
Technically speaking, I suppose the HV plate voltage only goes through the filament secondary when it has a centre-tap, because this is where the output is taken from.
In the other case, the HV/B+ is tied directly to one of the filament secondary leads.
In both cases, the filament secondary floats with respect to the B+, so it should have little if any effect on the output.
Does that make sense?
However, the filament secondary lead connected to the B+ does have a relatively low impedance path to ground through either the LOAD, or the filter capacitors, or both.
I wonder if perhaps the only way we can have the 5VAC and B+ output combining in the filament secondary, is if it has a centre-tap?
Darren
.
Hi all,
great discussion going on here .Untill we get to the bottom of the first clues...we should not go to far ahead so,
a good few hours a few experiments...then a thought came for a new direction..
what happens when we apply our high frequency to the filament?
what happens if we apply a few extra instant electrons to the cathode? rather than the grid? via the heater....mabey thats why a 12.6 heater is better...also it is centre tapped....there is so much to explore here.
I keep wondering about the reference to the morgan jones book and where,exactly to apply it to the tpu..perhaps we really need to examine the unconventional properties of these electron tubes...
Sometimes, when i think that I have explored something i realize that all i have discovered is my own ignorance.
That is usually when i truly begin exploring.
Marco,
I always though of the 5volt heater winding as"floating" and in series with the ht. Have a look at some complete "old" circuits to get the "convention" that some are referring to.
Quote from: z_p_e on August 19, 2007, 04:12:30 PM
Quote from: -[marco]- on August 19, 2007, 02:00:00 PM
i was just about to put the 500VDC directly on to the filament to see what it would do. ::)
if there is no closed loop it cannot combine.
unless there is some sort of electrostatic coupling between the windings which can happen at high voltage.
it is the diffrence between two terminals and a closed loop ,and one hot terminal in an open circuit.
that is relevant because Steven says it travels through the coils of the htr transformer and combines with the 5VAC.
from the beginning of the experiment untill now i did not understand what he ment.
Marco.
Technically speaking, I suppose the HV plate voltage only goes through the filament secondary when it has a centre-tap, because this is where the output is taken from.
In the other case, the HV/B+ is tied directly to one of the filament secondary leads.
In both cases, the filament secondary floats with respect to the B+, so it should have little if any effect on the output.
Does that make sense?
However, the filament secondary lead connected to the B+ does have a relatively low impedance path to ground through either the LOAD, or the filter capacitors, or both.
I wonder if perhaps the only way we can have the 5VAC and B+ output combining in the filament secondary, is if it has a centre-tap?
Darren
hi,
This would be the same situation as we would take one lead from the wall socket and connect it to one end of the primary of a transformer.
no current will flow untill the closed loop is made.
Normally it can only combine when the circuits are connected to each other on two points or more.
However, this can change with high voltage and resonance.
for example if we make the coil resonant to the pulsed frequency of the connected one wire high voltage connection.
In that case we would be tapping the wall socket by resonance and not by induction.
This is a bit of new and unknown territory to me and sometimes it is hard to understand.
I do not see the 500VDC on the filament because it will instantly destroy it.
I only see the "potential" on the coil of the htr and this means i will have to look for a resonant frequency...
Marco.
.
Marco,
Below I have shown each half cycle current going through the diodes, then through each side of the filament secondary where the plate currents can combine with the 5VAC current.
The filament secondary is still floating, but definately is IN the circuit with the FWR wave form.
In other words, the plate and filament currents are combining in the filament secondary coil.
I hope this now clears it up for you :)
Darren
No, Sorry it does not.
It still is one half cycle blue and the next half cycle red,but never at the same time....
it is one diode at a time which conucts and not two diodes at the same time, therefore there is no physical closed loop circuit.
if the 500VDC would be closed on the coil of the htr it would instantly burn out the filament.
Marco.
ok all i just found this agin for the first time
gk i think you sum it right here
gk words a refresher
This is the final answer.
This TPU stage is transmitting to cause ringing in the aether. That is what the current posts are pointing at and what Tesla was talking about. It still fits in with the audio feedback posts I did. We want to use the earth's field in the feedback loop in phase to cause return energy to cause oscillations(Remember the audio receptions in the movie 'Contact'? Phwoomph, Phwoomph, Phwoomph). This is what all SM's TPUs did. Sound waves, magnetic waves, radiant energy, kicks it's all the same just different parts of the spectrum.
Remember the dancing magnets that Turbo showed? That showed if you send 7.8hz into space the resonance of a magnetic material is excited. If you look at the 2 dancing magnets as control coils and the collectors as the 7.8hz input frequency one can see how to get the ringing feedback. The control coils don't move but the fields do. These then cut across the feedback coils. 2 frequencies, 7.8hz and the control coil freq. This is just a subset of the Hutchison effect.
The brain is the engine for the mind.
The mind is the visualization for the journey.
And the journey is where we create reality.
--giantkiller. I am just very glad I am not doing this alone.
READ IT LEARN IT
Quote from: -[marco]- on August 20, 2007, 10:56:35 AM
No, Sorry it does not.
It still is one half cycle blue and the next half cycle red,but never at the same time....
it is one diode at a time which conucts and not two diodes at the same time, therefore there is no physical closed loop circuit.
if the 500VDC would be closed on the coil of the htr it would instantly burn out the filament.
Marco.
Marco,
I thought we were interested in how the currents of the Plate (one at a time) combine with the filament coil as Steven said they did...and they do as I illustrated.
Think of it this way;
one Plate voltage and half its associated filament secondary are in series! Then the other plate and filament secondary on the other half cycle.
I don't know...maybe I'm nuts...
no, i am nuts, sure the electrons can walk in..
but they cannot walk out because they are blocked by the other diode,no closed loop ::)
Steven also sais he took a 500-0-500V 300mV plate transformer which i think should be 300mA.
and he measured the output from the tube as 500 volts DC at 250mV where i think this should be 250mA.
Any way let's not argue about this and continue...shall we.
Marco.
marco i just found that osc and a long discreption i will post the schem and this is right out of 1 of the old books im sure i have more info on this osc but this is the first i have found
comming right up
ist
Quote from: -[marco]- on August 20, 2007, 01:24:27 PM
no, i am nuts, sure the electrons can walk in..
but they cannot walk out because they are blocked by the other diode,no closed loop ::)
Steven also sais he took a 500-0-500V 300mV plate transformer which i think should be 300mA.
and he measured the output from the tube as 500 volts DC at 250mV where i think this should be 250mA.
Any way let's not argue about this and continue...shall we.
Marco.
I don't think we're arguing Marco.
If you would prefer to drop the discussion, ok. I guess we're looking at things from different perspectives, but in the end, our perspective does not matter...because:
The circuit works...the filament is heated, it bleeds electrons, plate current flows, we get full wave rectification, and finally a B+ when filtered.
In the process, the plate and filament transformer currents interact, and that is all SM was trying to point out. Nothing more.
Darren
.
yes ,the electrons which are boiled off the cathode meet the electrons from the plates.
So the 5VAC meets the 500VDC.
but i constantly monitored the ac voltage of the heater and it did not show any sign of the 500VDC with it,which i think is normal however the 5VAC does combine with the 500VDC and i think we have a nasty situation here.
Marco.
Here is the setup in it's simplest form ,the way i connected it.
Now i cannot see current flow in that secondary transformer.
So either i am doing something wrong,missing something, or it is just not right.
Marco.
Quote from: -[marco]- on August 21, 2007, 02:47:15 AM
Here is the setup in it's simplest form ,the way i connected it.
Now i cannot see current flow in that secondary transformer.
So either i am doing something wrong,missing something, or it is just not right.
Marco.
That's because the circuit is not correct if you want full wave rectification. The centre-tap must be used on the plate transformer. Here are two examples of the correct connection; one tube, one SS.
Darren
Guys, is it possible to get spikes just from 2 transformers and nothing else (being fed with a smooth sinusoid)?
If we use tubes, switches, etc, then it's definitely possible.
Do you guys remember Dave's 3 transformer setup that was fed with a squre wave? That was kind of interesting.
EM
@em
if you caould get them with 2 why not with 1 transformer and nothing else i dont think you can get kicks with just a transformer but if you add a spark gap or a magnetic spark gap you will have more kicks than you could imagine but they are irugular so to mix them would be diffucult in my opinion
is
perhaps i will try and see if i can get kicks this way
em the more i think about it how about this we might be able to achive spikes from 3 transformers by putting the out put of the first to the input of the next and some where along the way spikes may ocour from the distortion with in the transformers hummm
does that sound posible sounds like the harmonics from 1 may colide with the harmonics of another hummm....
anyone any ideas where i should start with the tube i have ? the the 6bq7a tube
want to start playing around with it
ideas?
is
IS, my best guess is that Steven used that tube as end stage amplyfier, and that it was driven with a tube based oscillator.
Darren, it is still not clear to me.
Pherhaps it's due to the reverse or slightly out of phase action the 500VDC reaches the HTR coil.
Anyway i was thinking it was like this:
marco what im leaning towards is this
that tube is 2 triodes in 1 so it is the phase invertor sm says that he also says he uses it for his input so that means it is the oscolator as well im really thinking it can be done with just 1 tube or 2 tubes the same as i have with a single triode one can make almost all the diffrent osc's for tubes or just with that 1 tube you could build a push and a pull amp the key is how does he cancel the flux
cuz once the flux is cancled it will take almost no power to revolve the magfeild much similar to the muller motor no?
i have herd the problem with the tpu is that it runs way too fast and produces microwaves so
to produce micro waves how fast must somthing spinn in the mhz? maybe 5 or 6 megs? humm
the funny thing is this when i get there i will be able to look back and say wow look at all the stuff i learned along the way then i will say what can i do with the knowalage i have gained in this process to make this world a better place for all
then my job will begin
well back to the TPU bible ... to find some more clues ;)
this time i am going to make a file of sm words that pertain to tubes only and see where that gets me ;)
ist
Marco,
Your diagrams look correct. I would however have drawn the wave forms on the ends of the plate transformer, not on the centre-tap. The centre-tap is to be grounded.
One side of the plate transformer could be shown positive (conduction), while the other is shown negative (cuttoff). Then the opposite for the second diagram.
Yes the interaction is difficult to visualize in this "no centre-tap" version of filament transformer. Oddly enough, in my simulation, the centre-tap version exhibits no 60 hz modulation of the FWR wave form, while the "no centre-tap" version does,
Darren
PS. How is your test coming?
Hi good fellows,
I?m writing here in a kind request I address to you, to all experimenters with tubes.
Please check the following thread if you haven?t done yet: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3086.0/topicseen.html. It?s about Universons.
I do not intend to bother you too much but tubes can be used for confirming the universons flux. While I?m waiting for my tube source, I?ve thought some of you may be interested in the above topics. All it takes it would be pulsing the tube and check for various effects along the path of the accelerated electrons. Those effects should include induced EMF in a regular metal (wire), which in principle can be detected with an oscilloscope even if the magnitude would be too small for other practical purposes.
The energy levels involved in Mr. Poher?s experiments are on the order of 15J per pulse. This is quite big for a regular tube, although for single pulses a tube can be overdriven. I?ll probably burn some low power tubes in the process but at present I don?t have any. This is going to change during the next week. Meanwhile, your interest and your input on the above would be greatly appreciated.
I have another question. If there is a tube wizard among us, please let me know the kind (types) of tubes which have the following characteristics:
- longitudinal configuration (i.e. electron flux is not radial from the central filament to the cylindrical grids&anod), if any.
- high power tubes (diodes, in principal but also other types should work assuming that the other grids are kept at fixed potential) that are commercially available.
I will work in the first phase with Russian military tubes used for microwave equipments but that will make my life miserable as I?ll probably not be able to find their functional characteristics.
Therefore, my question aims toward later purchasing some well documented tubes, especially if the first experiments (more or less blindly conducted) will prove themselves positive.
Please reply in the above thread.
Many tx,
Tinu
hey guys i just thought i would post sm's words about the expairment you guys are doing because his words should stand here right beside our reaserch expairments so others reading are not serching to find what is being worked on at the time
*********************************************************** SM's words ***************
I have made a great study of Vacuum tube power supplies as I have told you. It is all very interesting. Please remind me to tell you why Nicola Tesla used Vacuum tubes in his most powerful demonstrations of his power conversion technologies.
Anyway, I have taken a high voltage power supply as follows:
500 v-0-500 v 300 mV plate transformer run it through a full wave silicon circuit then run it through a 5U4 electron tube rectifier. Now you know that the 5U4 requires 5 volts AC at 3 amps for its heater to gather the electrons and complete the circuit. Well, I measured the output from the tube and the result is 500 volts DC at 250 mV. The loss is due to the high impedance of the tube and its limited ability to dissipate more than 250 mA.. The point I wish to make here is that also along with the 500 volt DC is, yes, you guessed it, the 5 volts three amp AC current! They are both completely independent of each other except for some very interesting things I will mention to you some other time..
First of all, obviously you can have several different output components in the power output signal. You can have DC and AC together without any problem. Why did that mystery person claim that it was a foolish to say DC output with a 5k Hz component? Because he was deliberately trying to mislead anyone who might want to figure out what I was doing.
*******************************************************************************************
how does sm end up with dc and ac through the tube in the first 4 sentences of this clip he tells you
both trans are dc 1 is brige rectifed to ac and he is using the transformer at 5v 3 amps that is why it is worded the way it is just read it you will see it!!!!!
final answer is a 500 volt trans and a 0-500 trans !!!!! but what are the intresting things we will see when hooked up proper ??
marco zpe?
hey got 1 more question/idea does he power the heater with 5v 3a ac on the way through to the input of the tube where at the input it meets the 500v dc and both go into the tube at the same time ????
now just when i was writhing this last bit of this post somthing hit me verry HARD!!!!!!!!!
i dont think i should tell tho ;)
just incase im wrong but im almost sure im right
what will then happin in the tube? it is a retifer tube right hummmmm........ give her a thought
i dont have any of this setup but i have read the above many times and this is what i think will happin
it will flip the current !!!!!! the tube but not the voltage i love it!!! what i mean we will now have 500v dc at 3 amps!!
but maybe im just crazy
isteam!!
Like a damn "soap opera" in here.
SM used tubes to determine the frequencies - detectors. Something about SS being too slow to see them. Once this task was done - no tubes.
Very sharp pulses will create harmonics in the microwave region.
thank you grumpy
can you clear a few more things up ? so we can fly down the path
i for 1 would love to get there i thought that was the case at 1 point too but i have started over agin
tubes make it easy to get it to work and get all the right freqs and# after you have those you can then make the ss units
sounds like a post i made a wile ago lol!!! hummm..
i beleave sm made a quote somthing like this if you knew how much power you can convert from a permeant magnet ,,,,, i could start over on that topic alone
many things will be discovered reserching this technolagy ;)
SO ITS ALL GOOD!!!!!!
IS
is
"what i mean we will now have 500v dc at 3 amps!!"
We have the same "frequency" for that. :) Still need to test it and make it work.
Quote from: innovation_station on August 24, 2007, 12:23:43 AM
thank you grumpy
can you clear a few more things up ? so we can fly down the path
i for 1 would love to get there i thought that was the case at 1 point too but i have started over agin
tubes make it easy to get it to work and get all the right freqs and# after you have those you can then make the ss units
sounds like a post i made a wile ago lol!!! hummm..
i beleave sm made a quote somthing like this if you knew how much power you can convert from a permeant magnet ,,,,, i could start over on that topic alone
many things will be discovered reserching this technolagy ;)
SO ITS ALL GOOD!!!!!!
IS
First question is to ask yourself what the hell you are trying to do.
Obviously, tubes are not the only way - just a means to an end - might ponder what a "high impedence" realy does to an electric field - why would a tube see something that SS are toos low to see?
Quote from: Grumpy on August 24, 2007, 12:02:33 AM
Like a damn "soap opera" in here.
SM used tubes to determine the frequencies - detectors. Something about SS being too slow to see them. Once this task was done - no tubes.
Very sharp pulses will create harmonics in the microwave region.
the term "harmonic perfection" will not fit the above,unless I am mistaken.
The gap between tubes and ss was ten years....after having this process running.
To dismiss tubes for others is only ok IF you have been successful in doing so otherwise so I disagree with this for now and at least untill several hundersed different things are explored using the devices that we have been told to use so that it will be easier.
Any other aproach is less likely to achieve results...but of course nothing is impossible.
We have seen the videos...ss units!
It is like showing a cave man a box of matches and making fire ...then leaving him to it..with some sulphur..Then somebody tells him not to use that yellow stuff (sulfur) because we know that match heads are red...
Mannix - so blinded by the desire that he can not see the path to it.
Wake up!
I was not suggesting that you follow a different approach, only that you pay attention to the one that you are following.
hey guys with my above post
i can be totaly wrong but i had 1 of those times as i call em
i realy hope it works but if it does not it all good it was a thought that at the time made much sence im not tube expert hell im no electronices expert earther but that is what i got of sm words above
this is not proven but is ready to be proven wrong
so giver guys i donot have the stuff to dissprove or to prove
its up to the guys that do if you guys think it is posobile to do so
im guessing here like everyone else or almost everyone else ;)
i have done some comparisation on two devices which show certain simalarities.
Feel free to add more because there is much more but i was running out of time.
Tpu in green, Mra in red.
"His Masters Voice"
A virtual conversation between the TPU and the MRA.
TPU: The technology is not magic and is in fact uses simple electronic concepts to achieve the demonstrated results.
MRA: Most people want clean and simple circuits. These would not entail physical motion or large inductive masses as are encountered in orthodox generators. The MRA circuit fits this approach very nicely because it does not involve moving mass, but rather moving energy harmoniously to produce energy.
----------
TPU: Think of the power unit as a device similar to a radio receiver.
No I do not want to hear feed back informing me that I am trying to
convince the world my unit works on radio waves!!!.
But it behaves very much like a simple radio receiver except for the fact that radio waves need to be amplified before they can be of any use to us.
There are many wires perpendiculair to the main
collector. this is a necessairy part of the device.
MRA: The MRA is attracting the electromagnetic energies, and funneling them back to the magnet, through the coils, which couple a portion of the energy to the load. Other conductors which are in the path of the vortex also collect energy, specifically the neutral wires.
----------
TPU: You can begin to collect the current and dissipate it with no need for amplification because the signal source also becomes the feed for the power source and has the natural tendency to run with gain.
MRA: To achieve energy output which is above the energy applied at resonance, use three octaves, and there will be three harmonious notes in each octave, for a total of nine resonant frequencies.
These notes occur naturally when the base frequency applied is three octaves above the magnet's resonant frequency, and equal to the resonance of the quartz.
In this way, the potential applied to the quartz "taps" it, without the need to use physical force. The result is electrical output. Connect this output to a coil around a magnet, and the domains of the magnet, which comprise a tiny portion of its weight, and which do all of the "work" in a generator, will be forced to spin. This spin is called
"virtual rotation", because it is the spin of energy without the spin of the matter.
----------
TPU: In the case of my power unit, you create several frequencies within a space of the collector coil's circumference.
The frequencies are directly related to the circumference of the
collector coil.
You could describe the useable current output of my coil as DC but
with some hash in it.
MRA: With low-level ultrasonic input signals, the Magnetic Resonance Amplifier (MRA) produces usable direct current power at levels above unity.
----------
TPU: I am sorry, they are not piezo stacks.
However, they do look like it.
MRA: it is possible to understand this circuit as basically a tuned magnetic and quartz amplifier.
----------
TPU: But you would be fascinated with the amount of renewable energy you can extract from a permanent magnet!
MRA: The MRA is essentially a means of releasing the electrical energy stored in magnets.
----------
TPU: When I began to study the effects of multiple frequencies combined together I found out that when you deliberately strive to create the worst case scenario of frequencies you start to get some very measurable kicks.
MRA: The effect of this in a typical audio application is called harmonic distortion, and is not desirable, but in the MRA, this is what we want to occur.
There is energy in the harmonics, and this energy serves to both counter eddy losses as well as to oppose primary current flow, while contributing to circulating current within the resonant circuit.
----------
TPU: A long time ago, i said, if you take a bullet and throw it at the side of an automobile it will bounce off.
However, if you place the bullet into a gun and fire it at the automobile it, with sufficient velocity, go through the metal door and through the other side because of the inertia energy available for conversion.
MRA: If you use these features to create an open system in a closed loop, you can keep the potentials moving faster than the load device can use the energy, and that is unity plus.
----------
TPU: It is important that you note that you can never tune too closely to the exact frequencies of power conversion because the power received by the collector will instantly destroy it.
We instead must deliberately tune off the frequencies of conversion
in order to make the thing properly work.
MRA: In application, the MRA is tuned at resonance for maximum power transfer, then detuned slightly for maximum power gain. This relates directly to the use of thermal pressure at resonance, and the effect that this has on continued polar rotation and the
release of donor electrons.
----------
TPU: About the collector:
It is three separate coils of multi strand copper wire laid one on
top of the other, not interleaved.
The control wiring is vertically wound in several segments around
each of the horizontal collector coils.
If the unit goes too far on frequency it may begin to convert too
much current and try to dissipate way too much voltage.
MRA: A secondary is wrapped around the primary and is connected to an ordinary bridge rectifier, and the output of the bridge is applied to a DC load. A filter capacitor can be used on the output of the bridge, and was used on the MRA which we built.
Additionally, a load resistor across the capacitor will keep the output DC from getting too high as the circuit is tuned.
----------
TPU: start them up one at a time each.
First frequency then second harmonic component into the second,
then the third.
when you eventually strike the cord look out.
MRA: It is at this point that resonance becomes important. You must have three octaves of separation between the magnet resonant frequency and the signal supplied to the piezo. The circulating current is rich in harmonics, and this is necessary for the operation of the circuit.
----------
TPU: Speed is energy if you can convert the mass into energy quickly enough!
Anything no matter how small can store enough energy to convert
into huge amounts of energy.
MRA: Matter = energy. To convert matter to energy, resonate the matter.
----------
TPU:I am not saying it is impossible, but it will Damn difficult for these guys to get more then a big bang once in a while.
MRA: the resonant frequency of the magnet "beats" with the oscillating current.
----------
TPU: They will probably never start the coil and get to catalyst.
MRA: The piezo is the catalyst for the circulating current with the primary coil. The circulating current is additive, and this is the reason for the high potentials developed across both the piezo and the primary coil.
The piezo has a virtually inexhaustible supply of free electrons, and it releases them when it is stressed. Using the piezo in series with the primary coil will almost eliminate primary current, because it is voltage which stresses the piezo, not current. Therefore the piezo can be stressed with very little actual power, and provide the current to the primary coil which vibrates the domains of the magnet.
----------
TPU: I made an amp and had a really difficult time with a 35K resonance.
I had so much trouble with it that I finally left the resonance there.
I last measured it at 35.705K at a really high level.
It is a good thing that I can't hear that high.
But it does prove that my output transformer is capable of going up to 245K HZ. Which I measured.
MRA: The aggregate resonant frequency is between 34KHz and 35KHz, although we found the resonant frequency of the magnet to be around 8KHz to 11KHz.
The freqs that we are applying to our MRAs is beween 34 and 35KHz.
When the circuit is tuned, the magnet will be "singing" at around 8,000 to 11,000 Hz.
The frequency that resonates both the piezo and the magnet at optimum resonance will be three times (three octaves above) the frequency at which the magnet is singing.
----------
TPU: If anyone ever gets one of these things operating, have them measure the electro magnetic and hash radio around the unit....it will blow your mind.
so, what does that do to control devices in close proximity?
Why do you think we HAD to place our control devices in the
middle of the operating coil?
MRA: avoid using scopes for anything except occasional waveform checks, because there is so much flux in the air that it will build up on the scope and skew your display.
this MRA builds a field up around it and blanks out some equipment.
----------
TPU: The closer you get to the center frequency the more power you permit the collector to dissipate into a load.
MRA: it is also possible to induce virtual rotation by applying the resonant frequency of the magnet, which causes the lattices and the domains to vibrate. However, the power required to do this is greater than the energy released by the virtual rotation.
Therefore it is necessary to increase the vibration without using excessive current.
----------
There is many info available on the Mra and i think it's operating principle is very similair to that of the Tpu.
i came by the Mra a couple of times and after building so many non operative Tpu's i decided to take a side way and try the Mra because there is more detail available since the inventors fully published the data.
Marco.
Hello all,
THE MRA WORKS TOTALLY DIFFERENT. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A TPU.
Otto
"His Masters Voice"
A virtual conversation between the TPU and the MRA.
I like this, there must be dozens of different ways to achieve TPU-like results.
Great post,
RD
Hello All,
The MRA2 sounds like an even better and much closer fit than the original MRA1. Check this out:
MRA2: Magnetic Resonance Antenna?
Further research by Norman Wootan, Joel McClain, Robert D. Taylor and Tim and simplified version.
28 Aug 1995
Tapping A New Ambient Power Source By Resonant Ecitation ~
It has been discovered that an apparently hitherto unknown or unexploited source of ambient power exists everywhere on earth (extrapolating from experiments in Atlanta, GA and Austin, TX!) and from which essentially "FREE" energy can be extracted at almost no cost, merely by using the Key Concept in the Wootan/McClain discovery, namely external armonic excitation of a saturable core transformer, which causes it to act like an Antenna that extracts ambient energy in amounts 19 times or more than the energy required for the harmonic excitation. Indeed, the original MRA design continues to work and to exceed all original expectations.
In the MRA2 configuration, even when the piezoelectric capacitor has been removed and even when the primary resonant circuit has been cut, it still continues to produce verifiable output power! All that is required is a single wire from the AC Signal Generator to the saturable-core transformer of the original MRA disclosure in order to cause useful power to be generated in the secondary circuit in amounts vastly greater than the power input from the harmonic Signal Generator.
This appears to be an electrical analogue of the chemical phenomenon of Catalysis, namely the periodic pulses of energy into the transformer 'catalyze' the transformer's nature so that it operates in an apparently hitherto never before seen mode, namely it behaves like a novel 'Antenna' which is extracting AMBIENT ENERGY from "somewhere"! It is not necessary to understand completely at this time what the source of Ambient Energy may be, in order to exploit the phenomenon in an environmentally benign way for the benefit of mankind.
Numerous maverick scientists and engineers have suggested that there may be hitherto unknown aspects of electromagnetic radiation not comprehended in the standard Maxwell's Equations, such as the controversial "scalar waves" postulated by retired Air Force Colonel Tom Bearden.
Retired physicist Greg Hodowanec, who duplicated the MRA independently after learning about it from the New Energy News newsletter, which reproduced the internet announcement of Wootan and McClain, suggests that the ambient energy comes from the earth's gravitational field and is somehow being converted into electrical energy.
Former BYU professor of Physics & Astronomy, Dr. Bob Bass speculates that MRA2 (as was the original MRA1) may be somehow tapping the ambient electromagnetic energy known to exist in the Earth-Ionosphere Cavity in the form of Schumann Resonances which are continually resupplied every time a lightning bolt from a cloud strikes the earth. "As explained in the Second Edition of Jackson's classical book on Electromagnetism, the great genius Nikola Tesla discovered the Schumann resonances experimentally 50 years before Schumann predicted them theoretically," says Bass, who adds that he once calculated that "every cubic meter of space near the surface of the earth contains on the order of one kilowatt of standing waves, similar to those in a microwave oven except at vastly reduced frequencies, which no one knows how to extract efficiently." Or do they? The late Utah inventor Moray, author of a book entitled "The Sea of Energy in Which the Earth Floats", astounded famous scientists in the 1920s and 1930s with never-explained demonstrations of his ability to extract 3 kilowatts from 'nowhere' at will, anywhere (even randomly selected points in the desert), using his unexplained Moray Valve. Moray submitted a Patent Application, but withdrew it and his secret died with him. Admirers of Moray point out that his writings included the words "Germanium triode" decades before the Transistor was discovered by Bell Labs scientists (who won a Nobel Prize) and who had been directed into solid-state physics by the late Harvey Fletcher, who had earlier witnessed Moray's work and been shown every detail except the secret of the vest-pocket-sized Moray Valve.
A recent controversial theory of Austin Institute for Advanced Study physicist Hal Puthoff and his collaborators Haisch and Rueda appears to explain gravity as not an intrinsic property of matter but as an indirect consequence of Maxwellian electromagnetic radiation, namely that (as earlier suggested by the late Russian dissenter Sakharov) gravity is a "shadow effect" similar to the accepted Casimir Effect of quantum electrodynamics. Bass points out that if the Haisch-Puthoff-Rueda theory is correct then Hodowanec's idea of tapping the earth's gravity field in some electromagnetic way not hitherto suggested is conceivable.
Whatever the Ambient Energy Reservoir into which the MRA is tapping, the novel phenomenon is real and deserving of exhaustive further investigation, according to elated inventors Wootan, McClain, Taylor and McCracken, who urge independent investigators to seek to replicate their discovery.
Below is a circuit for the MRA1. As yet I have been unable to find a schematic for the MRA2.
Bruce
Hello all
now we are talking!!
Thanks Bruce.
Otto
Quote from: otto on August 24, 2007, 07:34:06 AM
Hello all
now we are talking!!
Thanks Bruce.
Otto
Sure Otto now we are talking eh.
so, what happend to your ECD??
Did it float away because of the weight loss?
@Bruce , i was just about going to cover the Mra2 in the same fashion i did with the previous one, but you did the
dirty copy paste thing so it wont be nessisairy, i guess.
the readers can figure it out by their selves.
i'm out, i got some other things to take care of lately.
Have fun all.
Marco.
Hello all,
@Marco
Im fine, my ECD - TPU is fine....its still on my workbench.....thanks for asking.
Otto
Quote from: Grumpy on August 24, 2007, 12:02:33 AM
Like a damn "soap opera" in here.
SM used tubes to determine the frequencies - detectors. Something about SS being too slow to see them. Once this task was done - no tubes.
Very sharp pulses will create harmonics in the microwave region.
If one digs a little deeper, they will also find that HF and RF "noise" outside the device can reach high levels..high enough to disrupt the operation of SS devices. Hence the need to keep them in the ring.
Tubes are not susceptible to this type of interference (why does the Russian military still use tube equipment?) and therefore allow for better and sustained control of the frequencies being applied to make catalyst.
Obviously the speed of SS is not the real issue here, but their stability in noisy environments is. Incidentally, IR has a line of MOSFETs that are "radiation hardened", and are meant primarily for space applications. Perhaps there are other IC's out there that also fall under this category.
@Grumpy,
Welcome to the "soap opera". Any constructive contributions are most welcome.
Cheers,
Darren
hi all i would like to say that i have seen an amazing amount of power come from an aa battery from the flash of a disposable camra
i can still say that im in ahhh still from that simple circuit it cost me 3 bucks at the dollar store
lets just say if that kind of power can come fromm 1.5v aa battery i think nothing is imposible any more
ist
I like the posting marco, very nice.
If I may, I would like to point out that SM was making a specific point with his tube posting.
I don't think there is FE involved and I'm not saying to not experiment with tubes.Ã,ÂÂ
CanÃ, you guess what that point was?Ã, Hint HintÃ, :)
The point I wish to make here is that also along with the 500 volt DC is, yes, you guessed it, the 5 volts three amp AC current! They are both completely independent of each other except for some very interesting things I will mention to you some other time..
First of all, obviously you can have several different output components in the power output signal. You can have DC and AC together without any problem. Why did that mystery person claim that it was foolish to say DC output with a 5k Hz component? Because he was deliberately trying to mislead anyone who might want to figure out what I was doing.
So the point is guys SM was just defending himself and answering a critic so not everything SM says is somehow a clue of how his device works, per say. Ã, We can get so sidetracked easily if we don't read everything in context.Ã, Not that it's bad to get sidetracked once in a while, we might learn something we never knew and will benefit us down the road.
EM
Quote from: z_p_e on August 24, 2007, 08:36:55 AM
Quote from: Grumpy on August 24, 2007, 12:02:33 AM
Like a damn "soap opera" in here.
SM used tubes to determine the frequencies - detectors. Something about SS being too slow to see them. Once this task was done - no tubes.
Very sharp pulses will create harmonics in the microwave region.
If one digs a little deeper, they will also find that HF and RF "noise" outside the device can reach high levels..high enough to disrupt the operation of SS devices. Hence the need to keep them in the ring.
Tubes are not susceptible to this type of interference (why does the Russian military still use tube equipment?) and therefore allow for better and sustained control of the frequencies being applied to make catalyst.
Obviously the speed of SS is not the real issue here, but their stability in noisy environments is. Incidentally, IR has a line of MOSFETs that are "radiation hardened", and are meant primarily for space applications. Perhaps there are other IC's out there that also fall under this category.
@Grumpy,
Welcome to the "soap opera". Any constructive contributions are most welcome.
Cheers,
Darren
I suppose you've never heard of "time dilation" - which is associated with RMF's.
Do you think that the interference produced would only be outside the ring and not inside too? If it were just "RF noise" couldn't these components be shielded?
guys anyone here that can translate from german to english i have looked on the net and found translators but they are just not clear enough for me to understand all that was written
i recieved a pm to day from a good guy here but unfourtinaly i can not understand what he is telling me makes me sad i need help to convert to english so i can undersatand what he says
help anyone?
ist
pm me if you can help me out thanks much
QuoteI suppose you've never heard of "time dilation" - which is associated with RMF's.
Do you think that the interference produced would only be outside the ring and not inside too? If it were just "RF noise" couldn't these components be shielded?
You would suppose incorrectly. Anyway, I was expecting this "relativistic" response.
Keeping the electronics located within the ring will minimize these effects.
There are in fact two effects at play here: "noise" and "time dilation". They are not necessarily related to each other (no pun).
Noise includes both transverse and longitudinal, so no, not all noise can be shielded. EMP's are capable of "taking out" most electronics for 10's of kilometers for example. No I am not saying the TPU produces noise at this intensity, but the point is shielding is not always 100% effective.
Relativistic effects in this case involve moving fields. An intense fluctuating magnetic field caused by the rapid RMF could constitue a mild EMP in the TPU, and locating the electronics inside the ring, especially in the exact centre, would minimize if not eliminate the disruptive influence.
Quote from: Grumpy on August 24, 2007, 10:25:37 AM
Quote from: z_p_e on August 24, 2007, 08:36:55 AM
Quote from: Grumpy on August 24, 2007, 12:02:33 AM
Like a damn "soap opera" in here.
SM used tubes to determine the frequencies - detectors. Something about SS being too slow to see them. Once this task was done - no tubes.
Very sharp pulses will create harmonics in the microwave region.
If one digs a little deeper, they will also find that HF and RF "noise" outside the device can reach high levels..high enough to disrupt the operation of SS devices. Hence the need to keep them in the ring.
Tubes are not susceptible to this type of interference (why does the Russian military still use tube equipment?) and therefore allow for better and sustained control of the frequencies being applied to make catalyst.
Obviously the speed of SS is not the real issue here, but their stability in noisy environments is. Incidentally, IR has a line of MOSFETs that are "radiation hardened", and are meant primarily for space applications. Perhaps there are other IC's out there that also fall under this category.
@Grumpy,
Welcome to the "soap opera". Any constructive contributions are most welcome.
Cheers,
Darren
I suppose you've never heard of "time dilation" - which is associated with RMF's.
Do you think that the interference produced would only be outside the ring and not inside too? If it were just "RF noise" couldn't these components be shielded?
Of course they could be shielded but surely we are talking about a physical experiment that will have components placed here and there....a rats nest so to speak.
Any body who has tinkered with new circuits would under stand the practical implications here.
Demonstrating one's inability to see the practical application of the best advice that has been given does not assist any body. the opposite is more likely the case.
Nobody here is an expert but Please, Mr Grump, If you have useful information or a good source I suggest that you let us know so that we can get on the right path as you see it.
Im not sure if you have made anything yet but I could be wrong.
I do not know anything about your sight so I wont comment on it but my eyes are not as good as they used to be, that is true.
oops ! I dropped the soap....again!
I politely ask that we keep this thread on using tubes.
It is vital that we play this out.
If you do dot think that it is important then start, yet another one."Close" the group if you think that will help.
@EM,
Yes it is possible that you are absolutely right about that context.
it is the interesing things about the out of phase transformers that I am interested in.
Quote from: Mannix on August 24, 2007, 10:19:58 PM
Of course they could be shielded but surely we are talking about a physical experiment that will have components placed here and there....a rats nest so to speak.
Any body who has tinkered with new circuits would under stand the practical implications here.
You absolutely don't get it. Your mental block is so effective that you are oblivious. I am truly amazed - never seen a block so effective - truly amazed.
SM should get a Nobel Prize for patience.
Quote from: Mannix on August 24, 2007, 10:19:58 PM
Demonstrating one's inability to see the practical application of the best advice that has been given does not assist any body. the opposite is more likely the case.
Inability? It is you that is blind. Havne't you noticed that SM says some thing many different ways, but avoids certain words? Like there are words he can't say.
Quote from: Mannix on August 24, 2007, 10:19:58 PM
Nobody here is an expert but Please, Mr Grump, If you have useful information or a good source I suggest that you let us know so that we can get on the right path as you see it.
Im not sure if you have made anything yet but I could be wrong.
I do not know anything about your sight so I wont comment on it but my eyes are not as good as they used to be, that is true.
oops ! I dropped the soap....again!
I politely ask that we keep this thread on using tubes.
It is vital that we play this out.
If you do dot think that it is important then start, yet another one."Close" the group if you think that will help.
@EM,
Yes it is possible that you are absolutely right about that context.
it is the interesing things about the out of phase transformers that I am interested in.
Mannix,
You do not know what RE is. You do not know why tubes would detect something SS can not. You do not know why SM uses three frequences or how he applies them. Why does a TPU work at all?
Seek to understand the underlying principles of the TPU. Only then will you succeed. This applies to everyone.
Quote from: Grumpy on August 25, 2007, 12:57:10 AM
Quote from: Mannix on August 24, 2007, 10:19:58 PM
Of course they could be shielded but surely we are talking about a physical experiment that will have components placed here and there....a rats nest so to speak.
Any body who has tinkered with new circuits would under stand the practical implications here.
You absolutely don't get it. Your mental block is so effective that you are oblivious. I am truly amazed - never seen a block so effective - truly amazed.
SM should get a Nobel Prize for patience.
Quote from: Mannix on August 24, 2007, 10:19:58 PM
Demonstrating one's inability to see the practical application of the best advice that has been given does not assist any body. the opposite is more likely the case.
Inability? It is you that is blind. Havne't you noticed that SM says some thing many different ways, but avoids certain words? Like there are words he can't say.
Quote from: Mannix on August 24, 2007, 10:19:58 PM
Nobody here is an expert but Please, Mr Grump, If you have useful information or a good source I suggest that you let us know so that we can get on the right path as you see it.
Im not sure if you have made anything yet but I could be wrong.
I do not know anything about your sight so I wont comment on it but my eyes are not as good as they used to be, that is true.
oops ! I dropped the soap....again!
I politely ask that we keep this thread on using tubes.
It is vital that we play this out.
If you do dot think that it is important then start, yet another one."Close" the group if you think that will help.
@EM,
Yes it is possible that you are absolutely right about that context.
it is the interesing things about the out of phase transformers that I am interested in.
Mannix,
You do not know what RE is. You do not know why tubes would detect something SS can not. You do not know why SM uses three frequences or how he applies them. Why does a TPU work at all?
Seek to understand the underlying principles of the TPU. Only then will you succeed. This applies to everyone.
Thats right DO YOU ?
perhaps you could give us a practical experiment that you have done that will show the right direction.
Of course it it possible the you have something to offer the tube users..please, sincerely, do so and stop being "grumpy".
I dont claim to be an expert. If there is something that i am missing please put me straight.
As long as you follow what SM said, you know, the basics: moving magnetic field + coil = energy. There you go, that's how it works. Now all we need to do is find out HOW it makes it's moving magnetic field so powerful. People have mentioned in this thread that they are having a much easier time with their tubes than with SS devices. On the right track? I think so. Until I get my own tubes and experiment I have no room to talk though.
as i recall the rotational field is a byproduct of the freqs combinng with the right timeing
is
a magnetic field IS a vortex, when you start to tap it, the "tapping mechanism" starts to synchronize with the already present ultra high speed rotating magnetic vortex and it locks on it.
Just like a windmill starts to rotate due to the flow of the wind, or like the paddlewheel in the river starts to turn because of the water flow.
it is in howard johnsons book "the secret world of magnets"
M.
Edit:
i can almost guess next question ,if the vortex is moving ultra fast, why do we not get a powerfull induction into a coil?
Here's why: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUdKer-yFtk
Same reason the car does not move, the tyers are moving too fast to couple.
@Mannix
This is in reference to your comment on shielding. There are 2 primary resonances in a simple coil, the primary transverse resonance, and the primary longitudinal resonance. A faraday cage will shield energy at the primary transverse resonance, while the primary longitudinal resonance energy will pass right through that faraday cage as if it were not even there. That longitudinal resonance will be picked up by an identical coil on the outside of the faraday cage.
Bob
Bob,
Are the primary transverse and longitudinal resonances you mention, of the same frequency, or is each different in a given coil?
Also, are longitudinal waves synonymous with scalar waves? If not, could you please explain the difference?
Thanks,
Darren
Guys,
Magnetic field shielding effectiveness of a Faraday cage has more to do with the frequency then anything else.
Low fluctuating magnetic fields go right through a thin aluminum faraday cage. Some people might think they're mysterious fields, but current EM theory shows very nicely why that is.
I once talked with one of my professors about this and I let him know about some of these so called "scalar" transmitters I found posted on the internet, and he just chuckled to himself and directed me to some of the IEEE papers that have been writen on this subject. So yes you can transmit through solid conductive walls !!!
EM
EM,
For magnetic fields, that makes sense.
However, it is my understanding that longitudinal waves or scalar waves have no magnetic component, so we would be dealing with a different animal.
So "longitudinal" waves or "scalar" waves have no magnetic components?Ã, Hmm,Ã, that's too bad, I was realy hoping :(
:)
EM
This should probably be discussed in some other thread, but anyway, no magnetic component has something to do with "curl-free vector potential".
But I think you already know that EM. ;)
Darren
Quote from: Bob Boyce on August 27, 2007, 04:06:25 AM
@Mannix
This is in reference to your comment on shielding. There are 2 primary resonances in a simple coil, the primary transverse resonance, and the primary longitudinal resonance. A faraday cage will shield energy at the primary transverse resonance, while the primary longitudinal resonance energy will pass right through that faraday cage as if it were not even there. That longitudinal resonance will be picked up by an identical coil on the outside of the faraday cage.
Bob
Thanks for looking in Bob.
It is my "guess" that the longitudinal resonance is what we want to use . but it is, in this case a "ring" of itself? ....Kind of a contradiction. It sure does my head in at times. Sometimes i think that I am learning.
Would it be so that in the centre of a big ring it would be less?
Do you have any insight to offer us as to the difference between ss and tubes regarding the reason that Steven has said to use them because it is easier?
Hi all,
I quote myself, what a shame!
However, I was asking myself if the former kind request hereby quoted simply remained unnoticed or it was dismissed?
No interest from your side, no enough expertise or is there any other reason (I can?t figure it out) for the lack of any reaction?
You know, I can really use some help here?
More or less of a help given, it would be still something!
(Several tubes will arrive tomorrow, in a bulk delivery.)
Many thanks,
Tinu
Quote from: tinu on August 23, 2007, 03:54:05 AM
Hi good fellows,
I?m writing here in a kind request I address to you, to all experimenters with tubes.
Please check the following thread if you haven?t done yet: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3086.0/topicseen.html. It?s about Universons.
I do not intend to bother you too much but tubes can be used for confirming the universons flux. While I?m waiting for my tube source, I?ve thought some of you may be interested in the above topics. All it takes it would be pulsing the tube and check for various effects along the path of the accelerated electrons. Those effects should include induced EMF in a regular metal (wire), which in principle can be detected with an oscilloscope even if the magnitude would be too small for other practical purposes.
The energy levels involved in Mr. Poher?s experiments are on the order of 15J per pulse. This is quite big for a regular tube, although for single pulses a tube can be overdriven. I?ll probably burn some low power tubes in the process but at present I don?t have any. This is going to change during the next week. Meanwhile, your interest and your input on the above would be greatly appreciated.
I have another question. If there is a tube wizard among us, please let me know the kind (types) of tubes which have the following characteristics:
- longitudinal configuration (i.e. electron flux is not radial from the central filament to the cylindrical grids&anod), if any.
- high power tubes (diodes, in principal but also other types should work assuming that the other grids are kept at fixed potential) that are commercially available.
I will work in the first phase with Russian military tubes used for microwave equipments but that will make my life miserable as I?ll probably not be able to find their functional characteristics.
Therefore, my question aims toward later purchasing some well documented tubes, especially if the first experiments (more or less blindly conducted) will prove themselves positive.
Please reply in the above thread.
Many tx,
Tinu
Tinu,
thanks, well worth some "exploration".
I had not previously seen that . Not sure why.too much soap??
I use 12au7 for overdrive experiments because i have lots of them to burn.
I have not destroyed any yet but I will do so if it is possible
they are similar to the 6bq7 that has been suggested.
Your other questions about the physical structure are interesting but are beyond my experience and knowledge but i hope that somebody can contribute.
Lindsay
Lindsay,
Many thanks for the reply!
Well, yes there was a lot of soap thrown in immediately after the first post and that probably buried it.
I was just checking the specifications of 12AU7 (and 6BQ7 also). They both seem ok for a start but the power is quite small. 22mA, 330V, 3W continuous dissipation. I wonder how far they can be pulsed. (I can?t also wait to check what I?ll get this afternoon from my tube source; I aim toward those Russian-made freaks of hundreds/thousands of watts, if I?ll be able to get any.)
Every data sheet I?ve checked seems to indicate that 12AU7 has longitudinal configuration but I can not be sure of that. I?ll dig more and hopefully someone will come helping along. Anyway, for the tubes I?ll get, I?ll throughout inspect them visually and, if necessary, I?ll even ?dissect? one.
If radial configuration, the effects will be spread around 2pi and they will probably be too feeble to be detected. Even in the case of a longitudinal configuration, there will still exist quite a large solid angle (between cathode and anode) which is not helping.
In fact, against the spreading of effects in a solid angle, if you?ll take a look at the patent I?ve copied in http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3086.10/topicseen.html , Mr. Poher suggests that a longitudinal magnetic field is also necessary, mainly for selecting those electrons that have a certain longitudinal path. In my experiments, maybe not right from the first ones but surely for some of them, I?ll wind a longitudinal (and quite massive but carefully wounded) coil around the tube so a relatively powerful and uniform magnetic field forms inside.
I?d be more than excited if you?d also like to do some ?exploration?!
My efforts up to now were mainly on the theoretical side. I?m almost satisfied with the understanding I?ve got and the time has come to move forward.
I?ve conducted some very crude and un-successfully tests with the only available ?electron gun? I could find around, which was an old TV tube. While the voltage is relatively high, the current is small and the electrons usually do not have a parallel path, as they were constructively meant to hit the whole surface of the screen. Therefore, I could not see anything unusual. However, one simple question puzzles me: why is the front (the outside) of the screen being strongly charged? After all, all the electrons inside are captured (the circuit is closed through the grid). I wonder if this is one effect of Mr. Poher?s theory or if it has a much simpler explanation?
Many thanks again,
Tinu
hello all if you are all wondering why i have not posted here it is because im not ready to go further with tubes just yet
all tubes are is a means to the end as it has been said b4 so..... i guess it is at rest right now for me
for those that want to go further with tubes check out the blocking osc for tubes using triodes if that is not it then look at a crystal osc using triodes if i find more time i will post schems for both from the old tube books i have
ist
Quote from: Mannix on August 27, 2007, 06:33:45 PM
Thanks for looking in Bob.
It is my "guess" that the longitudinal resonance is what we want to use . but it is, in this case a "ring" of itself? ....Kind of a contradiction. It sure does my head in at times. Sometimes i think that I am learning.
Would it be so that in the centre of a big ring it would be less?
Do you have any insight to offer us as to the difference between ss and tubes regarding the reason that Steven has said to use them because it is easier?
If I understand your first part correctly, yes, it is the longitudinal resonance that we seek. And yes, the center of the ring could be a null field point. It all depends upon the design of the ring(s).
As to the differences between tubes and solid state, there are a number of types of either. Some transistor chemistries are very close to tubes in their ability to deliver crisp clean amplified signals with little feedback, while most are absolutely horrible for harmonic distortion. I agree that tubes can be well suited for this type of application, due to the higher voltages involved. This has a more pronounced effect with less current. However, once a very good understanding is reached on the very nature of these energies, the requirements needed to "tap into the wheelworks of nature" can be met with either tubes or semiconductors. Either way, high voltage in the mix makes this much easier to achieve at better power densities. It just requires a difference in coil and drive methodology for low voltage vs high voltage at the controller end of things.
Bob
Thanks Bob!
being a novice at energy conversion devices, your in put is appreciated.
I will keep on with my old "electron clouds". I do wish those who are using ss the best of luck.
Be sure that I may join you, after I have ridden many miles with the horse in front of the cart that has been described to us.
Darren,
Please, just because some people are anal dont leave .
Almost every body can see that you are consistent, intelligent and an asset to this long process.
any body who has a triple tube rack up and running please contact me.
Lindsay
United States Patent 5434536
Quote from: Mannix on September 05, 2007, 12:12:39 AM
United States Patent 5434536
Hi Lindsay.
YES, the "Tube-Essence" circuit.
Later owned by Aphex. Their patent is 5450034.
Very simple idea, but brilliant! "Starved-Plate".
I looked into this idea many years ago, but haven't heard it myself.
Not sure it will help here though.
Darren
@ all
replace tubes with semiconductors ?
Vergesst das besser !!
.......
Egal ob Transistor j-Fet . Transistor+ Fet Kombination .
Egal welches Dioden-clipping und spezial Scematics
dieselben Kennlienen wie eine R?hrenschaltung ergibt.
Egal welcehn "Kopfstand" gemacht wird um auch die "Harmonischen" messbar gleich zu bekommen.
ES IST NICHT DASSELBE !!!
Und im Bereich FE , ohnehin nicht .
Glaubt , das einfach , ohne dass ich hier
einen seitenlangen Bericht dar?ber gebe .
Seit 1950 habe ich ein wenig Wissen in diesem Bereich gesammelt , das auch mein Beruf umfasst. Erzeugt FE mit Schalte Funken Relais Inductors Tubes , wie Ihr wollt.
Niemals mit Semiconductors . Es wird nicht arbeiten f?r DIESE BEREICHE indenen Ihr hier Erfahrungen sammeln wollt
Gustav Pese
--
all
replace tubes with semiconductors?
Forget that better!!
.......
All the same whether transistor j-Fet. Transistors Fet combination.
All the same which diode clipping and specially Scematics that make
the same Characterisics as vacuum tubes circuit results in.
Also if is made special and also the ?harmonious ones? measurably directly same as in tube ciruit !
IT IS NOT THE SAME!!!
And within the range FE, anyway not.
====================================
Believes this !, without here sidelong reports , to explaining this probably .
Since 1950 I gained "little" knowledge within this range, which also my occupation covers.
"Produces FE" with switches sparks relay Inductors Tubes, as want you.
Never with Semiconductors.
In THESE RANGES (Areas) it experiences to find FE ZPE , radiant Power and so on
Gustav Pese
OK Pese,
Will you tell them the circuit requirements to produce "radiant energy"?
Quote from: Grumpy on September 05, 2007, 06:09:53 PM
OK Pese,
Will you tell them the circuit requirements to produce "radiant energy"?
Das kann ich nicht . Von der ?blich verstandenen Physik ist es unm?glich . Falls externe Energien sich "hinzuaddieren sollen" sind andere Dimensione notwendig diese einzubeziehen . Dazu bedarf es gr?sseren Wissens und Zugriff auf Quellen einiger Erfinder
You tell them does ton produce ?radian want the circuit requirements energy??
I cannot do that. From usually understood physics it is impossible. If external energies ?to add itself are? are other Dimensione necessarily these to be included. In addition it requires larger knowledge and access to sources of some inventors
Pese,
I've never seen a semiconductor switch that did not have a small reversal when switching. Even the newer SiC type still have this reversal.
Quote from: pese on September 05, 2007, 03:54:18 PM
"Produces FE" with switches sparks relay Inductors Tubes, as want you.
Never with Semiconductors.
In THESE RANGES (Areas) it experiences to find FE ZPE , radiant Power and so on
Gustav Pese
Yes, Pese. You have listed many ways.
Switches, sparks (gap), relays, inductors, tubes - and so few see it.
Quote from: Grumpy on September 05, 2007, 07:18:07 PM
Pese,
I've never seen a semiconductor switch that did not have a small reversal when switching. Even the newer SiC type still have this reversal.
all transistors hve in both way an avalanche or resistance effect-
that let breckdown the semiconductor (by leakage time voltage).
germaniumtransistors heve an breakdown , in reverse mode , mostly in same voltage.
but germanium-drift transistors (exp for TV flyback transformers (16khz) have only 0,2 Volt in reverse mode.(AU106 expl)
Silicon Transistors have in reverse mode an avalanche effect like an zener diode.
approx 7 volt . some power transitor (BU208) exacty 12 volts (up to 4 Amp!!), and old type of PLANAR Transistor als litltebit higher.
some "unusal silicon transistors as 2S202 enz have this over 20 volts. Tat was my prof and buisiness over 40 years..
i have invented also the avalanch trigger effect in silicon transistors an is was published in the nederlands ELEKTUUR
as sawtooth-Generator . Some jears later an US Radio Magazin have "take" this and published as NEGISTOR .
I have done more in this "area" that can belived from most folks.
Accept only , this semiconductor to use in FE circuits is an wrong way . an way for return . G.P.
Pese,
To use "true switches" for these effects is the "true way".
Can semiconductors be used in an "indirect way" to produce these effects?
i think not, because not any funtion from an "true switch" can be translated into an semiconductor.
ris time fall time , peack voltages will be citted by avalanche effect of semiconductor (or surpressed from the
-speed- . no reverse voltages can be build up , and so on. also capacitance of transistors (from fet also higher.
also we must not forget , that the sparls , produce am wide spectrum of halmotics from KILOHERTZ to GIGAHERTZ and "SURE" over this range !! Nobody give attention on it !!
(The same : Tesla COIL work with SPARK-GAPS !! ALL this Circuits , and Scematics that will do this by
semiconductor ore veb Tube Oszillators to TRANSMIT 100 zo 180Lht in the COIL . IS NOT THE SAME !!
WILL mot Works as an "originally Tesla-Coil" . It is not more than to construcht an ORDINARY "LONG-WAVE TRANSMITTER (i done this as child fto, 10 jears) Sorry... The TESLA Circuits and constructions are OTHER Technics, thati also dont truely understand , so i must also "educate myself",(in my old days :-) )
G.Pese
use a fet with a spark gap ??? or a relay or ?? or??
hummm
ist
the fet as a switch (digital) spark gap or others mentioned (mechanical) the combo of the 2 make radient engery controlable by ss no?
I believe Pese is saying that a spark gap or other "true switch" is required, and that FET's and other semiconductor switches will not work for production of RE. He also says that making a tesla coil is not harder than a long-wave transmitter.
Switches, sparks (gap), relays, inductors, and / or tubes may be used to produce RE - just like Tesla illustrated many times.
Quote from: innovation_station on September 06, 2007, 12:14:54 PM
use a fet with a spark gap ??? or a relay or ?? or??
hummm
ist
the fet as a switch (digital) spark gap or others mentioned (mechanical) the combo of the 2 make radient engery controlable by ss no?
only spark gap,
you can create any voltage over 100 volt to swich on . (car spark 0,7mm have 700 volts to fire - you can "tune" them!!)
gas filled neon bulbs (control lamps 89 Volts) ore even "flash xenon lamps(bulbs)" , can be uses , but gass filled bulbs ar not so fast as in air -or better vakuum)
you can use spark gaps as the neon , flash ore like trigger diodes (diacs) , , als to trigger them for contolled "fire points" is not the problem , if the "head" think about it.....
G.Pese
you can make cascade to create also any 100KV (inductionless , with condensor charking , to
creat an hight potential spark (with marx generator).
yes grumpy i do agree but what i was saying is that you can use a fet to control those devices and make radient engery as you wish or in the right time collect the re b4 it goes into the fet and blows it up the fet will turn on and off your re producing switch as you need
so yes the fet will not make it on its own but can control the unit that does make it
as i understand
ist
Quote from: Grumpy on September 06, 2007, 12:39:43 PM
I believe Pese is saying that a spark gap or other "true switch" is required, and that FET's and other semiconductor switches will not work for production of RE. He also says that making a tesla coil is not harder than a long-wave transmitter.
Switches, sparks (gap), relays, inductors, and / or tubes may be used to produce RE - just like Tesla illustrated many times.
yes , i try it to do , with my "unpolished & word-poor" english.
the voltages must only swiched , and all spikes , harmonics enz must flow (and received) FREE .(unlimited)
Not any limiting in switchtime capacitance , or clipping the voltages -in both ways - (pos & neg)
NO ONE semiconductor can this so.
Semiconductors , for normal sine and other waves to oszillate amplifier , controll Power DC - AC RF (Radio-Band)
shur is practical . Fre eEnergy to control (IF...) shure , must flow free over some "unknow" frequencies , or dimensions
that needs "to cach" them ... to understand .
G.P.
;D
well i guess it leaves only 1 way to go
tubes!!
lol!!!
a tube amp that can do 1 meg anyone got ideas?
ist
.
Jes you can use like this.
for frequencies lower than 10 Mc you can use any audio tube
or poer tube from amplivier or television EL84 6L6 PL36 enz
6c4 ca replaces with "halve" 12at7 12 ax7 enz.
@pese
what would be the simplest push and pull amp we can make with a triode tube?
we need 3 push and pull amps for a tube rack to test the tpu with
for the freqs to ampfly it must go from 1hz to 2 mhz with 0 distoration
ist
Quote from: innovation_station on October 10, 2007, 04:47:33 PM
@pese
what would be the simplest push and pull amp we can make with a triode tube?
we need 3 push and pull amps for a tube rack to test the tpu with
for the freqs to ampfly it must go from 1hz to 2 mhz with 0 distoration
ist
The simplest is ti use like this.
http://rayer.ic.cz/teslatr/vttce.htm
this was developed for about 100khz .
the circuit can uses for 50khr to the MegaHertz range.
to make 0,1 Hz (?) . i think 10Hz to 100Khz.
you will use an normal tube signal generator .
philips heathkit amd "drive" with this "low power oszi"
an power tube . like el84 (6v6) el34 (6L6 PL519 enz.
Quote from: pese on October 10, 2007, 05:06:00 PM
Quote from: innovation_station on October 10, 2007, 04:47:33 PM
@pese
what would be the simplest push and pull amp we can make with a triode tube?
we need 3 push and pull amps for a tube rack to test the tpu with
for the freqs to ampfly it must go from 1hz to 2 mhz with 0 distoration
ist
The simplest way is to use like this:
http://rayer.ic.cz/teslatr/vttce.htm
this was developed for about 100khz .
the circuit can uses for 50khr to the MegaHertz range.
to make 0,1 Hz (?) . i think 10Hz to 100Khz.
you will use an normal tube signal generator .
philips heathkit amd "drive" with this "low power oszi"
an power tube . like el84 (6v6) el34 (6L6 PL519 enz.
P.S.
http://rayer.ic.cz/teslatr/vttce.htm Transmitter Osz. 100Khz
http://www.davekearley.co.uk/Tesla%20Coil/VTTC%20The%20main%20circuit.html
http://www.davekearley.co.uk/Tesla%20Coil/VTTC%20Tesla%20Home.html
http://www.belljar.net/plasma.htm
from my link collection
.
Thanks pese...
http://rayer.ic.cz/teslatr/vttce.htm...some good variations there...the tip of the berg!
The sooner we all start hooking these things up in any way that we can imagine and making some noise the sooner we will learn some of the things that the inventor learned.
Some specifics that i "THINK" are relevant
Tubes can operate hooked up to a coil where ss units failed to work.(directly i believe)
That means that ,as Pese said, something abnormal happens...we are searching for something abnormal. something that was over looked and not considered useful back when these were the latest technology......It was not really that long ago was it?
The drive signal i believe is not spikes but spikes are generated and perpetuated in the coil.....I could be wrong about that but it MUST be at least considered as a strong possibility.
The interactions between different parts of the circuit at different frequencies may be what was meant by "find the circuit potential".
Triodes have been pointed out as what to use....we know that we are below 10 mhz...way below.
Some "answers , ideas , thinkings - refer to mannix :
---MANNIX ''' ME .
http://rayer.ic.cz/teslatr/vttce.htm
---
...some good variations there...the tip of the berg!
The sooner we all start hooking these things up in any way that we can imagine and making some noise the sooner we will learn some of the things that the inventor learned.
Some specifics that i "THINK" are relevant
Tubes can operate hooked up to a coil where ss units failed to work.(directly i believe)
### Jes it?s so .
--
That means that ,as Pese said, something abnormal happens...we are searching for something abnormal. something that was over looked and not considered useful back when these were the latest technology......It was not really that long ago was it?
### Nothing is annormal - only " unknow , not jet to understand - and "in-another- "level" of thinking and mind .
--
The drive signal i believe is not spikes but spikes are generated and perpetuated in the coil.....I could be wrong about that but it MUST be at least considered as a strong possibility.
### It shown possibel that spices and also other
signals (also "noise"!! ) can result an "unknow output(-power)".
--
The interactions between different parts of the circuit at different frequencies may be what was meant by "find the circuit potential".
## jes see above
--
Triodes have been pointed out as what to use....we know that we are below 10 mhz...way below.
###
Posibliy also Tesla" uses his70L7 that are "prentodes "
RCA say "gridbeam" because its an copy from europe patents --- as TRIODE . in his electric car that worked
also in this frequencies . Tesa say : it can used "any
frequencies. I myself , i belive he have used the fully
"radio-frequency ranges , that contains "in addition , an lot "hi power?) NOISE.
- The noise that you hear in radion betwenn the station . the "snow" in TV Set if transmitting have CLOSED , is the "noise" from "universe".
---
Pese
-------------------------
any pentode el84 el34 6l6 enz. can used
also astriode , wveb with electrical caracteristics of an triode..
for other details , some small "thinkings" soonest..
Pese
@ Mannix
the "berg" = "pic"
you find in the collection in this URL !!
it give an lot to "study" for "searchers" "invertors" "hobbyists"
and so on
http://rayer.ic.cz/teslatr/
Gustav Pese
http://pese.cjb.net
ok guys i know we all want a working ring
but in order to have a working ring we were instructed to use tubes now when sm says tubes does he mean freq gennys? i dont think so the amp maybe but he specfictly mentions the 6bq7a tube as a phase invertor could the phase invertor be some kind of pre amp adding the phase effect to the mix i think that it is and from the digging i have done i would say that it only flips the phase by what ever deg we select it to and with this peice of equipment we should be able to create a phase locked loop!!
anyone got any ideas?!?!?!
ist
this would be the area i have dirrected the least of my thoughts so it will need work to achive our goal ;)
Quote from: innovation_station on October 24, 2007, 08:37:38 AM
ok guys i know we all want a working ring
but in order to have a working ring we were instructed to use tubes now when sm says tubes does he mean freq gennys? i dont think so the amp maybe but he specfictly mentions the 6bq7a tube as a phase invertor could the phase invertor be some kind of pre amp adding the phase effect to the mix i think that it is and from the digging i have done i would say that it only flips the phase by what ever deg we select it to and with this peice of equipment we should be able to create a phase locked loop!!
anyone got any ideas?!?!?!
ist
this would be the area i have dirrected the least of my thoughts so it will need work to achive our goal ;)
possible , some other source or utility is working in the tube , and will make oszillations to an output !
If it is so , that are forces , taht "weak" up , but not to understand with normal electronic (also special knowledges) in this "area". I am only "feeling" this , hard to explain in words..
G.Pese
(i think an the "Barium" that is used on the cathodes in the valves ... perhaps some phsican here , can say mor to THIS element)?
Pese
Word "varium" replaced to Baruum" GP
Quote from: innovation_station on October 24, 2007, 08:37:38 AM
ok guys i know we all want a working ring
but in order to have a working ring we were instructed to use tubes now when sm says tubes does he mean freq gennys? i dont think so the amp maybe but he specfictly mentions the 6bq7a tube as a phase invertor could the phase invertor be some kind of pre amp adding the phase effect to the mix i think that it is and from the digging i have done i would say that it only flips the phase by what ever deg we select it to and with this peice of equipment we should be able to create a phase locked loop!!
anyone got any ideas?!?!?!
ist
this would be the area i have dirrected the least of my thoughts so it will need work to achive our goal ;)
Steven said he used three tube based generators, when he first striked those magical tones.
to me this means three independand stable tube oscillators.
can't be that easy can it? :)
Marco.
I suspect that there are "entities" of an electrical nature that are passed by tubes and not by semiconductors. These "entities" may be reflected or blocked by SS devices.
...or to be even more general: the constituents of an electric field are acted upon differently by tubes and SS devices.
Perhaps these "constituents" can be restored when using SS devices, via passive elements such as coils and caps.
As I recall, Eric Dollard did not use SS devices in his longitudinal wave demonstrations, so maybe SS devices don't respond to transverse electric waves and longitudinal electric waves the same way.
SM's mentioned tube amps after the tube freq gens, so all tubes up to the TPU.
tubes have a much higher internal resistance and there simply are better resistant in high voltage setup, where the transistor imediatly fails or "flashes" due to it's compact and sensitive design.
also the coupling between the nodes in transistors is significantly "better" meaning it just preforms worse when (RF) interference is present.
you can see the diffrence simply by injecting a RF signal close or into one of the nodes and see how it infuences it's behaviour in both types of setups.
The tubes simply keeps the signals far more cleaner and without too much distortion where the transistor will need additional circuitry to keep it "on it's track"
Marco.
ok guys
so i got my ss taste almost done my ss rack
so i guess i need to buld a all tube based rack now!!
well how the heck!!??
well i have not seen the effects of a ss genny in to a tube amp i saw tube to tube and posted in gk's thred but tonight i will hook up a comp ss genny to my tube amp and see if it acts diffrently than the tube genny and if it does then
hummm build another rack
ist
if you are going to drive the tubes with ss generators, i suggest you put the sensitive circuitry inside a shielded metal box and use heavy shielded grounded signal carrying wires.
But it was made clear to us more then once, it is not how it was discoverd by the master aswell as it will be extremly difficult to get results, he even said it took him years to get the things to run on ss.
why not take the road exactly like he did and do things right?
shortcuts only seem to save some time...but do they? :)
Marco.
Perhaps Pese can answer this question but I'm open to ideas:
If we are talking about rotation of the electrostatic field would it be beneficial to place the tubes in any certain place or orientation within the coils?
I've found no evidence of this but I'm thinking it may be possible to 'enhance' the particle flow in the tube.
Ideas anyone? (technical please :)
hi BEP
the electron flow in tubes can also be infuenced by a strong magnetic field.
this is similar in a cathode ray tube where the magnetic field draws the line on the mask.
the field "steers" the beam and moves it over the end of the tube screen at high speed.
a speed human eyes cannot follow so we are simply thinking we see a complete picture but in fact it is made up of many lines, one at a time.
but i guess everybody knows this.
on the yoke are placed several magnets to set up a carefully balanced magnetic field, this is much like they balance the wheel of a car with tiny pieces of lead so it won't vibrate while driving....
if the field is not carefully balanced, the picture on the screen would deform.
so we can influence electric fields with magnets and magnetic fields with electric fields.
it is possible that in the exploding television, the coils of the yoke were placed closely to some tubes, thereby creating some sort of magnetic feedback ,not much at first ,but as the tubes get older the microphonic effect will increase, and this could be the reason for the event to happen.
Marco.
So 'enhancement' may be a stretch of imagination but feedback certainly would not.
I remember the echoing and reverb effects I used to get on my old Kenwood when the pre-amps started to glow blue.
Think of this - a tube that is intended to be effected by fields. One might call it a VFET ;D
Bias the grid at the cliff of triggering - let the passing wave take it over the edge to start a new step in oscillation ???
Or use the same method to turn an oscillator on or off each time around the circle at the same point regardless of the oscillator frequency. If that was done the best place for the tubes would be between the plates/collectors and not the center of the mess.
If an idea that wild was used I could see why going from tubes to SS would be a giant leap!
@ marco
are you ready to use the rest of the tubes ,transformers and variable caps you already bought for the next test if in fact you are i will walk the walk if you are not i wont because im tired of wasteing time and what im working on the output of my machine will far exceed the tpu in operation in every way ;D and im not boasting but i want them both DONE!!! ASAP!! LOL!!!
but if i see no further progress on the tpu i will find it hard to waste more time on it
just think of 2012
how much time is left b4 choas ?!?!?!?!
NOT ENOUGH !!!
WILLIAM
Quote from: -[marco]- on October 24, 2007, 04:02:10 PM
if you are going to drive the tubes with ss generators, i suggest you put the sensitive circuitry inside a shielded metal box and use heavy shielded grounded signal carrying wires.
But it was made clear to us more then once, it is not how it was discoverd by the master aswell as it will be extremly difficult to get results, he even said it took him years to get the things to run on ss.
why not take the road exactly like he did and do things right?
shortcuts only seem to save some time...but do they? :)
Marco.
@ marco would you recomend 1 box for the 3 genns or indivigual boxes will it make a diffrence to the generators? or we want them sheilded from the ring that is all?
i know this is not the way sm discovered it but it is what i currently have to work with so i will try to use it but want to do it the right way with them so
this is why i ask
ist
IS
If my understanding is correct you are going to try and drive tube amps with solid state signal generators.
Pherhaps the easiest way is to put all the sensitive circuitry on a few pieces of paper in one metal box, and use shieded signal carrying wires.
I said on a piece of paper so you will not have to exactly attach everything nicely and looking good in the box, because this simply does not matter, what matters is that it will work.
If this does not work you can also try the three circuits in three seperate boxes.( trying never hurts,unless you are not carefull) :)
If you are going to try and drive the coils with ss signal generators hooked up to mosfet amplifiers, i am affraid it will not work without the proper feedback to keep the signals clean.
I once was a purist too and everything had to be perfect or i would not try it...
Things have changed and to me it does not matter anymore how big the mess is, it just has to work.
Making it look fancy comes later.
If your setup does not work, you can always try to build tube based oscillators, for example a simple form uses one triode, three caps,a coil and a resistor.
I have chosen to use tubes only,and this will be my primary direction and i am going to walk the whole road...
Marco
@ marco
thank you for your responce
i will use a tube amp no fets right now i will use ss gennys i will put them in this box i made out of 2 cd rom drives i will put all freq generators and all there componments in this box knobs and all then i will use coax cable for all out connections ;)
if it wont ork then i will do 3 seprate boxes if that wont work tubes i have no choise
i will try this first
cuz im here right now
william
time to cut the crap all tubes then progress to ss after a working tube unit but for now i will have all i need to advance almost to the finished tpu we all know that there will only be a few chips in the finished unit and i bet a tuned crystal osc to match the coil exactly but that is way down the road ;)
right now the rack
ist
:)
verry nice marco i guess i should get back at thease tubes and hopfully some people will start to think......... if the want the real deal or not
this is the only way to understand any of this 8) unless your tesla of couse witch i am not alto i do have a verry unike gift ;)
this gift came to me when i was 6 months old i was electcuited and almost died rushed to the hospital turned blue all that stuff since that day on my engery has been dirrected towards it electricty lost touch for many years and just last year i said i will do my work from no on and i presued my dream altho the tpu got in the way ;) and all that did for me was perfect my device ;D
but back to this damm game so some more can compleate it :) and progress to the next level there so many levels to this video game the inventors have no idea only tesla did lol
dig deep cuz i do not see the end of the rabbit hole perhaps there is no end lol
A guy use to work for me who was a citzen band radio enthusiast. I go into it for a while and learned that guys would use linear amplifiers to really get the signal out. These are illegal in the US because of fcc regulations on strength of radio-wave transmissions. So of course they become a sought after device here in rebel land ::) My guy swore by the " old tube linears". I asked him why was that? "Cleaner output less standing waves." This is the same person that would turn his transmitter on with no mike input and walk around with a flourescent tube and see how bright he could light the 40 watt bulb from the greatest distance from his mobile linear transmitter.
Hi Sparks,
Quote
.. go into it for a while and learned that guys would use linear amplifiers to really get the signal out. These are illegal in the US because of fcc regulations on strength of radio-wave transmissions?
Are you sure? Any prove?
Kames.
Linear amps are in alot of truck drivers rigs. They usually operate in the 800 watt to 1200 watt range. Their use has fallen off with the advent of computerized systems being in the rigs. This wattage rf shuts down the computers on board newer rigs. The cb people still use them to compete for the air waves dumping them into full wavelength antennae and bouncing the signals off of the ionosphere. Just what the FCC doesn't want. Tubes are clean and alot less subsceptible to reflected waves. The tpu is basically radio waving the electrons along. If the frequency is as square as you can get it -the energy stored in the electron motion within the kicker coil atoms is released before it gets trapped in a magnetic fied. This is where the OU energy is coming from. The use of harmonically triggered coils to time the kicks is ingenious. Once the unit is booted the frequency at the ouput terminals can be hetrodyned and fed back to the kicker coils taking the advantage of inherent feed back. The hetrodyned kick pulses need to be squaredup and delivered through a tube to obtain maximum energy release. Right?
6as7 = 6080
i have from it. the strongest type of is 6080 wa or wb i think.
This have very big graphite anodes corus !
an typical schema you find as attached. (this was or AUDIO use , but
instead the autput transformat you can use othe loads.
the curruent source 20mA and 150mA , can made electronical
also with simple ways (boots-trap circuits for example)
People that have not the knowledge , can find all in internet.
pese
Thanks Pese :)
i was looking for that.
Marco.
There has been much talk about tubes vs. transistors regarding negative feedback (nfb), speed or transit time, distortion or purity, and perhaps a few others.
At times I think folks read too much into what SM has said regarding these things, and taken literally, this may lead them down the garden path. I am not saying SM is wrong. I am saying folks may not be separating the wheat from the chaff.
Let's start with Transit Time. Indeed, tubes achieve about 1ns in this regard...considerably better than SS. This fact alone is reason enough to use tubes first. Evidently, the TPU requires fast response times, and I agree. If someone can show proof that nfb increases transit time, please do. However, my current understanding is that nfb has no effect on the transit time of an amplifying device such as a tube, BJT, JFET, or MOSFET. If anything, it may actually have a beneficial effect due to it's curative properties regarding input impedance etc.
Distortion or purity is a no-brainer actually, but many make a big deal out of this. First of all, distortion is really only a concern when dealing with anything other than square waves or pulses.The following is only to appease the "sine wave" advocates.
Common misnomer: Tubes are cleaner than transistors...Wrong! They simply have different spectral characters....that's all!
Another: MOSFETS are similar to tubes...Wrong! The closest SS device to a tube is in fact a JFET. A MOSFET is an enhancement device (most of them), but tubes and JFETs are depletion mode devices.
A simple class A JFET amplifier stage will in fact have a very similar transfer curve and distortion spectrum to one designed with a tube triode.
Negative Feedback
Now here is where many cans of worms can be opened, but I wish only to address a couple. Right off the start, I must again state that this is really only an issue when dealing with non pulse-like wave forms. To once again appease the sine crowd, we continue.
Negative feedback is too general as used in SM's material. NFB can be applied locally around each device, around a few devices, around all devices from input to output, or all combined, both local and global feedback.
Many tout low feedback designs being better, and in terms of TIM distortion, I agree. How is low nfb achieved then? It turns out that the biggest problem with nfb is enclosing many devices in an overall loop. Many devices in series typically means a lot of gain, and that means instability challenges are ahead. "Low Negative Feedback" typically means local feedback only is used....none globally. All designs use nfb to some degree, even if unintentional! For example, if SM designed and built his own tube amplifier or generators, and he used triodes in some or all of the stages, then he was using nfb, even though he may not have been aware of it. Triodes, because of their design and inter-electrode interactions inside the tube, inherently have nfb built in! Look it up if you don't believe me.
All single device amplifier stages use some nfb, even inverters. A piece of wire from cathode to ground still exhibits some resistance and inductance, and hence there will be nfb around the device....it's called degenerative feedback. So regarding triodes, there are actually two forms of nfb being applied simultaneously... and that is without trying.
SM states that SS device amplifiers require tons of nfb to make them work, and because of this they are dirty etc. The amplifier SM is talking about is a typical one, but does not apply to all designs. It all depends on how the amp was designed, and where the nfb points are applied. Perhaps the amp has no global nfb? The point is, is that low nfb designs are possible using all gain device types. Some however are better suited to low nfb designs than others....BJT's being the worst.
Keep in mind that SS or specifically, BJT's are really only "dirty" once they are approaching saturation. But then so do tubes become dirty as well...just in a more gentle fashion. A JFET amplifier is the closet one will come to achieving the same gentle saturation that tubes exhibit, but one has quadratic (squared) type transfer function, while the other exhibits a "1.4 factor" transfer function. Guess which one goes with which?
SM has stressed many times that tubes are the way to go when starting out, and we should believe him. However, in order to make his case stronger, perhaps there was some embellishment of the facts. Also, we must remember that much of what SM has conveyed, was done so metaphorically, and so it is quite possible that we all missed the real message (if there was one) regarding how much nfb transistors use vs. what tubes use.
In my opinion in terms of the above discussion, most of it is irrelevant. I believe most if not all of what SM divulged was meant to be taken in the context of pulses, so distortion and nfb do not come into play. Timing and precision are the key issues, and is what was referred to when "exact" and "pure" frequencies were mentioned. But that's another post perhaps.
Cheers
Darren,
Let's keep it simple.
Tubes will do the job far more easy, they do NOT require any feedback to achieve catalyst sequence.
They are stable as they are.
Solid State requires feedback and without it, the unit wont even start or just shuts down becuase the control system is affected too much.
Steven told he had a hard time with the SS control part and it took him years to devellop them.
everytime the signals were what they suppose to be, it just did not work.
most of us are in silicone valley because we are more familiair with it.
I just decided to take the road he walked, so this means from tubes to ss.
Marco.
Let's keep it simple indeed.
Negative feedback and distortion is irrelevant. Colpits or other sine wave oscillators are irrelevant. I am not the one discussing these things in previous posts about tubes and what needs to be designed to use them in the TPU ;)
Why?
Because pulses are used in the TPU, not sines imho. Tubes can be used for pulses too!
Quote from: z_p_e on November 12, 2007, 12:03:25 AM
Let's keep it simple indeed.
Negative feedback and distortion is irrelevant. Colpits or other sine wave oscillators are irrelevant. I am not the one discussing these things in previous posts about tubes and what needs to be designed to use them in the TPU ;)
Why?
Because pulses are used in the TPU, not sines imho. Tubes can be used for pulses too!
Hi Darren,
Can you maybe clarify why you think the TPU uses pulses and not sinewaves?
I clearly remember SM mentioning Bushwackers and Freedomfuels posts. In my opinion Bushwacker was mentioned for his research into the HOPE device, which uses AUDIO SINE WAVES as the input.
This was one of the few occasions SM dared to directly point us at something imo......
regards,
Robert
btw, just for the sake of completion.....Freedomfuels post is about setting up a magnetic vortex to the ionosphere, which was the other direct reference SM gave.
Robert,
All the clues are there in SM's material. The simplest and most obvious one is SM's description of connecting a battery to a piece of wire and the resulting instantaneous electron flow. One gets the impression from SM's mention of this experiment several times, that it is in fact the underlying overunity principle involved in the TPU's operation.
Folks are talking of building 8 Hz Colpits oscillators etc. from tubes, and this is simply ridiculous. The focus seems to be on generating a nice clean tube sine wave oscillator, and I ask the question why? Why are sines thought to be the key to the TPU?
I should re-state something however, and that is; I believe there to be a combination of sines and pulses used in the TPU, but as a minimum, there are pulses. Folks seem to believe that pulse inputs aren't involved at all, and that's what puzzles me.
Steven gave high marks to Carl's material, and Carl made absolutely no mention of using sine waves at all. In fact he spoke of pulsing a number of coils placed in a circle. Read Carl's stuff again, and read what SM said about it.
I've read through Bushwackers and Freedomfuels posts long ago, and I found nothing specific or particularly useful to help decipher the TPU or SM's material.
Then there is Bob Boyce's device, and Tesla's work with RE, and on and on. They all use pulses to elicit an overunity response.
Deciding what SM used for inputs is a fundamental first step in TPU research. I'm not certain why this was never discussed in any depth, but I have tried in the distant past to get some dialog going on the subject, but to no avail. Folks get "stuck" on "perfect", "pure" and "exact" frequency and automatically assume this must mean clean sine waves. In light of all the clues in SM's material, I'm saying that this assumption seems wrong imo.
I could go on, but I think you get the picture.
Hi Darren,
I understand your point about the pulses but there are also a lot of things in favor of sines. (Like the endless references to harmonics and cords (chords) which to me clearly point to sines. Therefor your assumption of both pulses and sines might have some validity. Do you think the tpu is controlled by pulses and somewhere in the process creates sinewaves?
I know it gets a bit off topic in this thread, so if you want to reply just put it in the general discussion thread....
Robert
ZPE I agree but I'm heading in a whole different direction. They may have been necessary for SM's machine (a real round about way to do what needs to be done imho). Below is how I support the italicized statement.
Just got through building a free energy device that uses hf kicks. It worked and then burnt out the oscillator. (took a couple of hours though) I had system gain getting 20watts of light from a kicker coil powered by 4 watts of 27mhz hf. This was totally experimental and there was no feedback circuits to the 4watt oscillator circuit (citizens band radio). There was no mystery as to why the oscillator fried, there was a whole bunch of standing and reflected waves experienced by all that have transmitted on a poorly matched antennae to base circuit. The only tube in the experiment was the neon flurescent bulb the kicker was wrapped around. SM must have spent a bunch of time matching kickers to frequency and then timing there initiation. I don't care if he used the Good Lord's direct involvement, this is a formidable task. SM's tpu is an experimental device most likely sitting on someone's bookcase an oddity of the 20th century. It did serve it's purpose by drawing together alot of good minds
here on this forum.
I am starting to believe that SM's TPU is way too complicated. Pulsing one coil with RF is hard enough to do without cooking the pulse propogation circuits never mind 3 of them and have them at harmonic frequencies so that there appears on the collector a somewhat sinsoidal wave. The collector currents get in the fray and oh boy. Electric motor variable frequency drive circuits do something like this but create the fake sinsoid by varying the intensity of the spikes and you should see that mess compared to a pure sinsuoid.
Here's what I think will work and yes it uses tubes; copper ones. All that is needed is an antennae supported inside a copper tube. Slide this assembly inside a second copper tube of larger diameter. Connect the high frequency scource to the antennae and the coax to the 1st copper tube. The field will be propogated and travel straight into tube 1. Outside of tube one is placed the collector or tube 2. The kick should penetrate the 1st tube and free up energy stored in the 1st tubes atoms. The radiated field will experience gain and radiate into the second tube. Meanwhile the 1st tubes neucleus will have more magnetic influence on less quonta. This influence will be absorbed by shift in the sub-level electron orbits. This takes time. If a path for the propogated and enhanced field is constructed to return the quonta now in the outer tube through an external circuit (which can be used to do work) the quonta will return to the 1st tube. If this doesn't happen the energy will leave the system and end up elsewhere like on someone else's receiver. The next kick coming through won't be able to kick anything because the electrons left in orbit on the emitter tube are more tightly bound to the atoms. (ionized, positively charged, increased magnetic dipole moment, tighter, whatever you want to call it.) The system trying to establish equilibrium will radiate a reverse field and the energy will be lost with a bunch of oscillating and reflecting fields and conversion into thermal energy. (You just made yourself an induction oven).
This configuration of components as mentioned above is going to ouput very strong hf energy in the bandwith radiated by the oscillator. These issues need to be addressed from the get go. (beyond moving the oscillator into the center of a ring) They will interfere with communications equiment as well as cook you. This unit needs to be caged unless you want a huge fine from the FCC. All of the waves are not going to stop at the second tube and this leakage needs to be captured and routed to tube 1. Tube 3? Forget about your computer working near these things.
I am going to build one and cage it if the expected gain in field strength is proven. I welcome all criticism from those more experienced in hf field propogation and gain. I believe the best way to extract energy from this field gain and circulation is by inductive coupling and demodulation of the captured hf energy. I get into theory below for those it may interest.
Get free energy from the surrounding field it's there. Just add enough energy to the atomic aether between the electron and the neucleus and upset the neuclei magnetic dipole influence on the electron: the electrons will take off. Electrons
are not just little ballons floating around the neucleus. They're spinning like crazy and moving through the aether at the speed of light. They are loaded with kinetic energy. This kinetic energy needs only to be channeled not converted to be used by man. We can smash the atomic neucleus with an electron. On a macro scale-up that is like taking the earth and adding enough velocity to it to blow a hole through the sun. Yet we can't get an electron to orbit through a light bulb unless we burn plant material or take apart atomic neuclei? Plants have been routing electro-magnetic quanta for millions of years, it's time for the firebuilder to stop looking to the plant for his every need and at least mimic plant's intelligence.
A radiant electric field entering a conductor will allow the release of the atoms of the conductor's most loosely bound electrons. They will be kicked off the atom. The energy needed to kick them off their atom is less then what they
have in kinetic energy potential. Just need to channel them through a lightbulb or a motor and away we go. On a macro scale say planet x is moving in an orbital way out there past pluto. It's big it's spinning and it's orbiting the sun moving through space at millions of miles an hour. The suns gravity just enough to hold it in orbit. Along comes something it's own size from outer space call it
planet y (or better yet a whole buch of planet y's.) It has alot of inertia way more than it needs to stay clear of the sun. What it does as it travels through or near the solar system is; it disrupts the gravitational field effect of the sun on planetx. Planet x siezes the moment and tangentially takes off out of the solar system. Planet y also skips out at a slightly different vector than it came in on. Both planets smash into a huge light bulb filament and the sun casts a shadow for the first time in a long time. Just a small amount of energy is lost by planet y as it changes vector because of the suns gravitational field yet the power as the two planets crash into the filament is very nearly doubled.
I wish I had the mechanical and electrical prowess to start building one of these things again, the right way (tubes). But I'm afraid when talk goes to walk, I just can't do it! Plus I don't wanna blow myself up heh. Is anyone else using tubes here? Mannix and IST are, aren't you?
nope bought them i have all 6 sitting here right now never even powered 1 of em
or my transformer
for them
nobody wanted to help marco did but that was all so i left them there
and moved along
right to the source ;)
ist
ist,
you've got all the tube books you could ever need. what's the problem? why do you need help, you have electronics right?
open them up and get crackin'. it's not that difficult, just takes some time.
I wish I could help with that, I would if I could!
Hi all:
I was afforded a wonderful experience today. I have been in training seminars for a while now. Glad its over. But... the last class had a person that started working for tek in 1965 and it was tubes and wires as she said. Well that was just too good to pass up. I ask if I could pose a question not related to the seminar, and got a yes.
I just had to get her opinion of what might happen if you were to reverse the filiment wires in the twin 5U4 power supply section of an old amp circuit. Her answer was straight and quick. "You would never want to do that." Then I ask why.
Reasons as follows:
1. Can destabalize the power supply.
2. Can put undue stress on the transformer.
3. Will definately inject oscilatory noise into the output from it.
4. Cause "run away" overload.
"But it may take a bit of time for these conditions to happen."
The wonder of tubes.
thaelin
i no longer have the tube books they were on my laptop wich is DEAD !!
how ever when you all discover the truth of the matter.....
you will see what i have seen
im not useing the tubes but im not saying you cant use them but you certianly can build this thing with out them at all ;)
did tesla use the tubes
i dont think so
ist
for the record i do not have it running not becuse i cant because i want to understand it fully first
why you all ask cuz i will teach when i finish and help people cuz i did not get this help in my time of need i did it for myself and by myself sure we all had tips and pointers along the way
but it is up to you to do it for your selvs
you see
there is far more than ehough info here to acomplish this :)
Quote from: innovation_station on December 12, 2007, 03:22:20 PM
.....
did tesla use the tubes
i dont think so
.....
Tesla did use tubes. How extensively, I don?t know.
I am not saying that one cannot do it without the tubes.
:D
lol
i dont mean he did not use tubes for some of his work lol
i will tell you this..... those are not teslas words now are they
lol
in fact he did not use tubes
to achive his results
why?
hummmmm is there a better way lol
of course there is .....
ist
if you want answers go and do what so little have ;D STUDY THE SOURCE
@ist,
I know you didn't mean it. But that is how it sounded. Those are not my words. That is what SM said. Do I believe it? Yes. Do I use it? No.
I did study the ?source? and even posted a practical test easily reproducible by anybody a long? long? time ago in this forum with some very interesting results. Did you see it? No.
;D
Cheers,
Kames.
Wake-Up you gullible people.
First you had a guy that received CODED information from the Inventor; now you got a guy who has it all figured out and your just putty in his hands.
"The secret to selling Fishing Lures is - first you catch the fishermen then you catch the fish"
Beam me up Scotty,
- Schpankme
Quote from: Schpankme on December 12, 2007, 11:59:20 PM
Wake-Up you gullible people.
First you had a guy that received CODED information from the Inventor; now you got a guy who has it all figured out and your just putty in his hands.
"The secret to selling Fishing Lures is - first you catch the fishermen then you catch the fish"
Beam me up Scotty,
- Schpankme
@Schpankme,
I think that everybody should stop talking about people getting some coded information or about people that figured out everything. Teasing is okay ;D Check the beginning of this forum. No monkey see no monkey do. Do you homework first. That is what was said from the very beginning. If anybody might have more info it is Mannix. Absolutely nobody in this forum has figured out anything. That is the POINT.
Kames.
Quote from: innovation_station on December 12, 2007, 11:39:04 PM
lol
i dont mean he did not use tubes for some of his work lol
i will tell you this..... those are not teslas words now are they
lol
in fact he did not use tubes
to achive his results
why?
hummmmm is there a better way lol
of course there is .....
ist
if you want answers go and do what so little have ;D STUDY THE SOURCE
This is probably my second last post regarding IS. The last post will probably be in the new year. This guy contradicts himself so much it's not even funny. He is looking for investors for his "ideas". That is why he talks as though he has something. Unlike GK, Otto, Marco, CGT, and a whole lot others, who freely share their information, IS is just talk. He may have wound a few coils but I'm not sure if he's ever got anything out of them. Now he tells us that he has something but won't fire it up until he understands it. That may take a while :D.
It's best to do what most others here have, Just ignore him.
Tim
~ :)~
what can i say
~ :)~
merry christmas
i am genuine
~ ;)~
Histeam!!
Quote from: innovation_station on December 13, 2007, 09:55:24 AM
i am genuine
Histeam!!
Hey , i'm genuine too..
I think we all are, aren't we?
M.
Man this song has a nice sound http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4119317559614871874
HI All..
My first post here, and Im pretty interested in doing some testing to start with, and to do the testing I want to build a pulse circuit with frquency and pulse width modulation using a vacuum tube.. Id love your thoughts on this idea and the types of components to use.
The tube will be delivering pulses to the primary of our coil.
Switching voltages of around 100-500v
We need a Hard cut pulse with variable pulse width down to the microsecond and high frequencies 20khz +
We cant use silicon for this. It must be a hard physical break and Vacuum tubes are the only thing I know of that can do those frequencies. I'm thinking a RF Valve Triode.
We can use silicon to drive the Tube Switch on and off. I'm pretty sure a standard Radio Frequency tube would do it. But the trick is the pulse width variable.
We need to be able to alter the pulse width down to micro seconds. We need short sharp bursts.
OPTIONS :
Dual Switch operation. So one control unit controls 2 switches, allowing us to switch both Pos & Neg line..
Custom Function generator to mathematically compute the pulse width and frequency using functions/formulas. This would allow us to get exact frequencies and Pulse/Space ratios. Could use a Laptop and a little program to control that. Or code a EPROM to do it. But we would need a good processor to run the high speed clock cycle for accurate microsecond pulses.
Multiples of this deisgn could be use for multiple freuqncies, and using a function generator to control the pulse width and frequency would allow you to create specific harmonics.
See attached diagram.
PS - Spark Gap is just for safely to protect any back EMF overload of the Triodes.
Hello All,
I'm back on the tube scene again and this time, I've abandoned the 6AU6 pentodes that I was using in favor of the 12J5 TV tube triodes that I found recently. These tubes are rated for RF frequencies (some were used as radio tubes) and also for the VHF circuits inside old TVs (See attached pic).
I am now working on a way to set these tubes up to act like high gain amplifiers. I essentially want to make the tube equivalent of a comparator. so that I can use SS logic ICs like a 74HC04 NOT gate, which has a fast rise time, to 'trigger' the tube on and off. But I need some help finding the right circuit to configure the thing with. So far, I tracked down a simple triode amplifier schematic, but I'm not sure that it will give me what I want (also attached below). If there are any experienced tubers here on the forum who can help me, I would be most grateful :)
God Bless,
Jason O
Jason,
I left tubes behind some decades ago, but if I was to use tubes in the TPU (which I have no intention of doing), I would use the attached schematic.
Since the circuit inductance of wiring, leads, components, etc determines the maximum speed, I do not believe that a tube circuit offers any speed advantages. I could never build a tube circuit that would switch as fast as a modern FET. Even if the tube switched a hundred times faster than the FET, the entire tube circuit would switch slower, in my opinion.
The only advantage I see is that if there is a voltage spike at turn-off of say 3kV, this would destroy all transistors, but only cause a plate to grid arc, which most likely would destroy neither tube nor FET in this circuit.
Earl
Thanks Earl!! I'll try it out asap :).
Hi Earl @ others,
I finally had a chance to try out Earl's suggested setup and have posted a few screenshots and a scope shot below. The setup kinda-sorta worked but it appeared that the 12J5GT triode was not switching on all the way. I used a 0.1uF cap for the capacitor (just a first guess) and a 34V zener diode on the MOSFET (IRF840). I drove the MOSFET gate at 15V with a mic4427 driver IC. For the test, I used a frequency of 1kHz with a pulse width of just under 8 ?s.
I'm not sure what parameters I can change to get the tube to turn all the way on and off. In the scope shot, the top trace is the voltage measured between the anode of the tube and the circuit ground. You can see a small negative dip in the DC level (which was 300V) when the input signal on the fet goes high (bottom trace). The coil that I used was a simple toroid choke that looked like it was somewhere around 20-30 mH (no actual measurement of inductance taken). What am I doing wrong?
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: Jdo300 on February 03, 2008, 02:27:57 AM
Hi Earl @ others,
I finally had a chance to try out Earl's suggested setup and have posted a few screenshots and a scope shot below. The setup kinda-sorta worked but it appeared that the 12J5GT triode was not switching on all the way. I used a 0.1uF cap for the capacitor (just a first guess) and a 34V zener diode on the MOSFET (IRF840). I drove the MOSFET gate at 15V with a mic4427 driver IC. For the test, I used a frequency of 1kHz with a pulse width of just under 8 ?s.
I'm not sure what parameters I can change to get the tube to turn all the way on and off. In the scope shot, the top trace is the voltage measured between the anode of the tube and the circuit ground. You can see a small negative dip in the DC level (which was 300V) when the input signal on the fet goes high (bottom trace). The coil that I used was a simple toroid choke that looked like it was somewhere around 20-30 mH (no actual measurement of inductance taken). What am I doing wrong?
God Bless,
Jason O
Jason,
you are doing several things wrong. The coil has much too much inductance and especially much too much inter-turn capacity. There should be only one layer around the toroid circumference. In a triode switching circuit, a lot depends on the plate load, and I see a lot of capacity in that choke. This is not audio, but RF.
Please post screen shots of cathode voltage. Did you add a zener pull-up resistor to make sure at zero plate current that the zener still has full voltage?
What is plate current when grid to cathode is equal to zener voltage?
Your leads are very long, remember I said all lead lengths should tend towards ZERO mm.
The FET driver, zener, FET, ceramic capacitor plate-coil by-pass, and ground point should be right at base of tube. The circuit can not be a "bread-board" and at the same time have lead lengths approaching zero.
Regards, Earl
Hi Earl,
Yes, I did miss the pull up resistor on the setup. Just to make sure I have this straight, the pull-up resistor should be tied between the zener diode and the +300V plate supply? Should I use a huge value like, say, 1MOhm for this?
I realize that I probably had a far from ideal setup for this test, but I didn't want to invest time in making a PCB or finding a way to solder the chips directly to my vacuum tube before doing at least some preliminary testing on it. In the final version, I would hope to make a small PCB that would fit right under the tube itself and just 'plug' the tube right into the PCB.
I also meant to ask you earlier about the capacitor. What size range cap is appropriate for this arrangement? I just wily nilly picked the size that I had (0.1uF), but I honestly don't understand how this circuit actually functions. Could you explain it in detail to me? I would probably help me not make stupid choices in picking out the appropriate parts and things.
Thank you again for all your help!
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: Jdo300 on February 03, 2008, 07:00:57 AM
Hi Earl,
Yes, I did miss the pull up resistor on the setup. Just to make sure I have this straight, the pull-up resistor should be tied between the zener diode and the +300V plate supply? Should I use a huge value like, say, 1MOhm for this?
Use a resistor that doesn't dissipate too much heat. Not critical, maybe 100k to 1M ??
Can also maybe use a zener of 24V and a separate power supply of 30V with a much lower value resistor. What you want to achieve is a relatively stiff voltage supply that is simple. A zener power supply with pull-up resistor is about as simple as it goes.
I realize that I probably had a far from ideal setup for this test, but I didn't want to invest time in making a PCB or finding a way to solder the chips directly to my vacuum tube before doing at least some preliminary testing on it. In the final version, I would hope to make a small PCB that would fit right under the tube itself and just 'plug' the tube right into the PCB.
For experiments, I cut a piece of PCB where one or both sides has thin copper platting. The ICs are soldered to this with their legs in the air, held to the copper sheet by soldering ground to the copper (usually on one corner) and Vcc (usually the opposite corner) to ground plane via a chip ceramic C. The rest of the wiring is done "in the air". Thin copper or brass sheet would also suffice.
I also meant to ask you earlier about the capacitor. What size range cap is appropriate for this arrangement? I just wily nilly picked the size that I had (0.1uF),
0.1 disc ceramic should be OK, better is 2 or 3 in parallel, each with a different value, but for first experiments one 0.1 disc ceramic is good enough.
but I honestly don't understand how this circuit actually functions. Could you explain it in detail to me? I would probably help me not make stupid choices in picking out the appropriate parts and things.
See attached drawings. When cathode to ground (grid) is +30V, then grid to cathode is -30V. -30V should drop the plate current to zero, I would think. When the zener is shorted by the switch (FET) grid to cathode is zero Volts and the tube should conduct very well, probably enough current to turn the plate red hot. When conducting, current flows in the green loop.
A 6AS7 triode needs much too much negative voltage to turn off; maybe -200 Volts on the grid. An EEC88 needs only -4 to -5 to turn it off. A 6N1P audio triode needs about -10 V on the grid to turn it off.
Thank you again for all your help!
God Bless,
Jason O
Hi Earl and others,
I did some more tests on the tube circuit today and have scope shots galore below. The first modification I made was to add the 100 kOhm resistor between the zener and the +300V supply. (By the way, I just discovered from the last experiment that the supply is actually putting out 468VDC and not 300 so I am overdriving my tube quite a bit).
There are two problems that I am still faced with after fixing the zener bias. Though the bias did help to sharpen up the rise and fall times on the FET significantly, I am having trouble getting the vacuum tube to turn all the way on. I'm also having problems getting it to switch on fast.
In the first scope shot attached below, you can see how much the tube is switching on. (I replaced the coil with a 20K resistor since I realized that it was the low inductance of the coils that was not allowing me to see the full pulse when it switched the tube on).
I've been having problems getting the tube to conduct even when just applying a 0V bias to the grid to allow it to be fully on. My first guess is that I may simply have too much voltage applied to it so I will have to find a way to drop the input voltage down to 300. According to the scope shot, there is still 150V between the bottom of the square wave and the 0 line. Is it simply the fact that the tube is overdriven causing this or something else??
The second issue is the slew rate. In the second scope shot, you can see a comparison of the MOSFET switching on (bottom trace) to the tube switching on (top trace). The third attached image shows the waveforms zoomed in a bit so you can see it better.
The MOSFET is switching on very fast (~20 ns) whereas the tube is coming on in about 380 ns. I'm guessing that most of that problem can be fixed by using shorter wire lengths and I will tackle that issue last after fixing the turn-on problem.
@Earl,
After fixing the turn-on issue, then I'll try your suggestion with the PCB setup. But I'm not sure what is stopping the tube from fully conducting. According to my calculations, if I look at the tube and the 20k resistor as a voltage divider, the tube seems to have an equivalent resistance of 9433 Ohms. Assuming a 468V B+ supply, the tube would be dissipating about 2.4W which, according to the datasheet, is about the limit that it can handle. Would simply getting the DC input voltage down fix the problem?
God Bless,
Jason O
Hi Jason,
One of the first things to do is look at the plate characteristic curves.
How much negative grid bias is necessary to turn off the tube?
I would like to see one trace with drain or plate, and the other trace the zener voltage, during a on/off switch cycle. The last two photos only show the falling transition, not the rising edge.
If the grid (zener) voltage is sufficient to turn off the tube, and zero Volts sufficient to turn it well on, then the plate voltage should drop to zero if the impedance of the plate coil is high enough. However the plate resistance is nowhere near comparable to the Ron of a power FET. Plate resistance of a tube can be, say 10k to 100k. Take a look at:
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Basics_04_Triodes.html
This is a good page about using a 6SN7 in pulse circuits:
http://www.6sn7.com/
Also has info about the 12SX7GT that can work with 28V on the plate.
It appears that you need a tube with low plate resistance and turns off at convenient grid voltage.
What are you presently using for a plate load coil?
Earl
Hi Earl,
I can easily turn the tube off with the voltage presented by the Zener diode. The problem I was having was getting the tube to conduct fully. Unfortunately, I didn't have a chance to take some more scope shots of the circuit before I dismantled it. I changed the setup to the simplest possible arrangement; just the tube with the 20k resistor in series with the B+ and a DC power supply to set the grid bias. I wanted to find out what exactly was stopping the tube from conducting fully.
From running the test, I could see that tube would shut off easily with less than 30V negative bias on the grid (I forget the exact number off hand). But when I set it to 0, I still measured 150V across the tube. For this experiment, I also changed the B+ supply to 300V just to test my earlier notion that the tube simply could not dissapate the power fast enough.
It turns out though that you were correct about the plate resistance. I was actually able to get the voltage drop across the tube down but that was after I added an extra 100k resistor in series with the 20k. I also tried adding positive voltage to the grid, which also seemed to push the tube all the way on, though I heard that you're not supposed to do that right?
Anyway, I'm going to see if I can get my hands on some of those 6SN7 tubes that you mentioned. They sound like the perfect fit for what I need, plus the fact that there are two triodes in the same tube gives me ideas to use it in a push-pull setup. I've done push-pull setups using MOSFETs and it works great to keep the current input into the coil down.
God Bless,
Jason O
P.S. I was originally using a ~30 mH inductor for the load coil, it was just what I had laying around. But for the TPU, the coil inductance will likely be down in the low uH's. But the ultimate idea is to put in very sharp short pulses to smack the coil before a significant current will start to flow.
Jason,
the first thing to find out with one 6SN7 section is if the plate resistance is low enough to bring one end of a several uH choke down to ground during a short pulse. If not, try both sections in parallel. Driving a grid positive turns it into a plate; it starts drawing current, so this offers no advantage.
Whether in the end you stick with tubes or return to semiconductors, you will will still learn a lot.
It is written that
At a local radio shop Tesla bought 12 vacuum tubes, some wires and assorted resistors, and assembled them in a circuit box 24 inches long, 12 inches wide and 6 inches high, with a pair of 3-inch rods sticking out. Getting into the car with the circuit box in the front seat beside him, he pushed the rods in, announced, "We now have power," and proceeded to test drive the car for a week, often at speeds of up to 90 mph.
It is also said that
The box is said to have been 24 inches long, 12 inches wide and 6 inches high. Out of it protruded a 1.8 meter long antenna and two ? inch metal rods. Inside the box was reputed to be some dozen vacuum tubes -- 70-L-7 type -- and other electrical parts. Two wire leads ran from the box to a newly-installed 40 inch long, 30 inch diameter AC motor that replaced the gasoline engine.
The 70L7 has two sections, a Rectifier and a Beam PowerTetrode.
The electric motor was 80 kW, so how twelve 70L7s could power it is a big mystery.
I myself, am a FETman or perhaps an AVALANCHEman.
Regards, Earl
Hi Earl,
Thanks for the Tesla excerpts. I suppose one could get quite nice pulses with 12 tubes all driving in parallel :D.
I just happen to get a hold of one 6SN7 tube yesterday so I tried it in the simple resistor circuit and also in your circuit. The single triode alone still did not pull the inductor to ground, though it switched on twice as fast as the 12J5 that I was using earlier. According to the datasheet, the tube has a plate resistance of about 8 KOhms which gave me a very big drop when I used my 20k resistor in series with it for the resistor sheet.
But after paralleling the two triodes together, I got way better results. After resetting up your circuit, I put the 20k resistor on in place of the coil to measure the fall time of the tube. I posted scope shots of my observations below. The top trace is the tube and the bottom trace is the MOSFET. With the resistor, I got the tubes to switch on in roughly 200 ns while the FET switched on in 8-15 ns.
I included multiple shots so you can see wave at different zoom levels. The last scope shot is with the inductor in series. By the way, I actually measured it and found out that the inductance was actually 324 uH and not 30 mH like I was thinking. Oh one more thing, the tube was power from my power supply at 468V.
I'm not sure what to do at this point. I'm wondering if I should keep looking for a better tube, or find a different way to wire this one up to get better results? The circuit you gave me definitely works as prescribed though.
God Bless,
Jason O
Jason,
I assume that you have checked the heater voltage right at the tube socket for correct value.
I would try unwinding the torroid choke turns until only one layer around the complete circumference remains.
If that doesn't give good results, try removing some more turns and spacing the winding so there is just a little bit of space between each turn. The idea here is to reduce inter-turn capacity.
A grounded-grid or -gate amplifier has low input impedance; the FET sees a low impedance looking into the cathode and switches quickly. The tube plate unfortunately for digital switching has a large resistance.
If the above circuit tries still have too slow switching, the only other possibility that I see is to use a cathode-follower circuit. This means a battery-powered circuit and because the tube grid has high-impedance and low capacity, you probably can get away with NO FET driver, just the IC alone. This assumes that your IC has enough voltage swing to turn the tube on and off. If the 6V swing from a 74HC is insufficient, then you could use the older 4000 series or the faster Philips HEF series, both of which work to 15 Volts. The IC would normally be at a zero logic level (GRID = - V) only switching to a logical one for short pulses. The tube cathode "output" has a low output impedance, orders of magnitude below plate resistance.
Another possibility is to use a tube circuit like the Seike G-strain.
Earl
the circuit below is a start, but not correct, it has to be changed a bit.
Will have to think about it so more, but maybe the IC circuit part needs to have Vdd connected to cathode (think flipped upside down).
Yes, the first schematic is not correct, the 2nd one should be OK. The grid should always be at minus V with respect to the cathode, only going to zero Volts for a short pulse to turn on the tube.
REMEMBER the following 2nd schematic will only function correctly, IF the tube totally turns off a a grid voltage of minus 6V (74HC logic).
I have decided to edit this post and remove the first schematic to avoid confustion.
HIGH VOLTAGE CAN KILL - BE VERY VERY CAREFUL !
@ Earl
Tesla was a master of the standing wave. If the receiver in the car was capturing a hf signal and storing this power in a standing wave then he has on board a battery and charging system. Directing hf energy into the standing wave battery and controlling rf flash over current so that it is directed through the motor circuit. The only hf energy scource I can think of that would be around in those days is infrared. Still is. He could have been running the car on energy from his breakfast. ;D Maybe that is all we need to do. Develop resonant circuits in the infrared spectrum and convert this energy into low frequency power to drive our grid transformers. The Earth converting solar energy into a massive infrared transmitter. Better than just letting it get reflected by greenhouse gases and melting ice. Maybe we can collect enough of it and send it on it's way and cool things down around here. Change it into a fantastic light show for the viewing enjoyment of all.
Hey Jason nice going on the bench :)
Did you try to smack the signals so they combine at or around 7.X Hertz?
You can also try to create a setup like a radio in reverse.
Normally the HF signal is mixed with the MF signal because this is more easy to amplify.
In reverse this would mean the LF is mixed with the MF to give a lower power HF output....
This is especially intresting when the LF wave isn't capable of inducing current in a too small inductor where HF is quite good at this.
Nice to see you are doing great work.
Keep it up :)
Marco.
Hi Earl,
I just tried your circuit setup and, though I didn't have tubes that would switch completely off at or under 15V, I substituted the IC for a power supply and was able to throttle the tube up and down. However, when I used my MOSFET driver IC to try and drive it (partially since I could only input 15, and not the 25-30V that It needed), after a few seconds, the tube must of overloaded because it made a lout "POOF" sound and the driver IC preceded to explode :P.
Then I got the idea to use a push-pull setup of FETs to drive the grid at a higher voltage with the power supply (that was a mistake I made later), but for this experiment, the FETs I used at the time weren't as fast as the IRF840's, plus, since my driver was extinct, I was forced to use the function generator to drive them directly, which obviously made them turn on much slower. So while I was attempting to do this, I was also draining over an amp through the setup so I couldn't leave it on long enough to see if the tube responded before the fets got hot. The tube again, must of got mad at me at that point because it made another "POW" from inside. I immediately shut it down and rewired the circuit with the power supply so I could manually adjust the grid bias to "asses" the damage.
After proving to myself that the tube was working fine, I used a single MOSFET to make and break the connection between the supply and the grid....... and thats when the MOSFET exploded and the power supply fried :(. But miraculously enough, the tube just kept on humming away like nothing had happened!.... I love tubes, they're impossible to kill!
~Sigh~ anyway, I'm starting to wonder if I should just forget the SS circuits completely and go all tubes.... I'm thinking maybe something along the lines of a blocking oscillator or a tube ring oscillator would be a good idea, especially since I don't have any tubes with a low gate bias that I can directly drive with and IC. Earl, I know you mentioned the Sieke oscillator, but I'm not sure how to simplify the setup to use triodes. To be honest, I'm having a hard time seeing how it is functioning.
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: -[marco]- on February 07, 2008, 03:40:12 PM
Hey Jason nice going on the bench :)
Did you try to smack the signals so they combine at or around 7.X Hertz?
You can also try to create a setup like a radio in reverse.
Normally the HF signal is mixed with the MF signal because this is more easy to amplify.
In reverse this would mean the LF is mixed with the MF to give a lower power HF output....
This is especially interesting when the LF wave isn't capable of inducing current in a too small inductor where HF is quite good at this.
Nice to see you are doing great work.
Keep it up :)
Marco.
Hey Marco,
These are some very interesting comments about mixing the LF wave with the MF wave to make the HF wave. This all sounds good in concept and now I am ready to do lots of testing to see some of these effects in real life. The trouble is that I sometimes have a hard time coming up with some simple experiments to to that will cause some of these effects to show up. Did you observe these effects in your tapped coil experiments or have you found a more direct way to observe the effect?
God Bless,
Jason O
Jason,
here is a drawing I did for a generic Seike osc.
Enjoy, Earl
http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/08/elekits-tu-873keii-tube-amplifier-for-diyers-who-can/
Hi Earl,
Ok, I was just reading through some of SM's information about the tubes stuff and I came across this quote:
"Vacuum tubes have EXTREAMLY FAST TRANSIT TIMES.
Solid state devices are like molasses!
They also use about a million percent of feed-back to get a clean signal output.
Vacuum tube devices are fast, accurate and only require a few db of feedback to achieve better result."
Ok, he mentions that the tubes only need "a few db of feedback to achieve better result." What is he referring to here when he talks about the feedback? I'm inclined to say positive feedback since he was referring to the tube devices having "EXTREAMLY FAST TRANSIT TIMES." So is there some way I can add positive feedback to one of these tube circuits you've given me to make the tubes switch on faster? It would be great if I could make the tube act like an op-amp without any feedback resistors on it.
God Bless,
Jason O
You may find this useful.
Operational Amplifier with VT
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_8/14.html
I am expecting a feed back used on this device to produce an interesting results.
Aside note: I am building this for one of my projects - Energy Sucking Antenna
SAS
Anybody ever compare the slew rates between VT and SS OPAmps? Pretty strange... (at least for common SS opamps)
Hmmm.... Yeah looking at the specs fro the Tube Op-Amp was less than impressive. About the only good thing is the fact that it can swing +-50V unlike the SS counterparts. The slew rate was definitely less than impressive at 15V/uS. Most of the driver circuits I have built for my MOSFETs can switch 15V in under 30 ns, for an effective slew rate of 1500V/uS.
Now if tubes are supposed to be so fast like SM is obviously implying, then what am I missing here? Or is his definition of fast and my definition of fast totally different??
God Bless,
Jason O
"to tube or not tu be, that is the question"
Shakespeare
Hi All,
I have several things to say about this subject.
1- A scientist can not prove everything and has to accept "truth" that has been found by others before him/her. That said it could still turn out that, for example, the Sun does not function based on hot fusion.
2- A TV repairman may discover something extraordinary and in spite of investigating this during many years, may never understand how and why it works. It can not be excluded that some of his ideas and opinions are incorrect.
3- Being a TV repairman does not mean that you understand radio frequency interference control in SS circuits. Years later after SM finally learned how to control and combat RFI and REI, he used SS circuits with no problems. Thereafter he forgot about tubes and did not look back.
Personally, I think
A- the function of the TPU has absolutely nothing to do with the Earth's magnetic field.
B- SM's first experiments used tubes and sine waves, while later and better versions used solid-state electronics and square-waves / pulses with transition times as fast as possible.
C- while SM says that tubes have fast transit times, I have reservations that any tube can be as fast as modern solid-state electronics. I would like to stress that the fact that tubes are physically much larger than solid-state circuitry means that they must be slower than SS. Being smaller does not guarantee faster operation, but being larger means that the circuit *** MUST *** operate slower. Do not think that for one second that a tube can operate at the speeds that modern SS circuitry does. Even small tubes, such as nuvistors, are not as fast as today's SS devices. FETs, transistors, and laser diodes can operate at many Gigapulses per second as proven in modern fiber optic systems.
Please look at the attached PDF file to see a simple SS circuit, with which even audio transistors can achieve switching speeds in the picoseconds region. Notice however that the circuit *** MUST *** be small to achieve fast transition speed. Every nH or fraction of a nH in the discharge loop will hurt. It is possible that electron avalanche in a semiconductor junction is much faster than any transit frequency of a vacuum tube. I suggest that serious researchers take a serious look at electron avalanche in P-N junctions. Using diodes or transistors that breakdown at hundreds of Volts or even 1 or 2 kV at picoseconds speeds could be very interesting.
I believe that using HV picoseconds [or low ns] pulses is the correct road to OU results.
Earl
@Earl,
All good points
@All
What would be a common OP Amp in the 90's? A 741 perhaps or similar. Slew rate for a typical 741 is .5V/microsecond. That blows even compared to the VT OP Amp designed 40 years before. SO SM's comments were probably correct - for that time.
I have no doubt any VT circuit can be done with SS - and many more. There is one question I haven't found an answer... How do you use a SS switch to apply a potential to an open circuit? Easy enough to do if you use a passive device to do the dirty work - xfmr/cap coupling, etc. But how can you do it directly with no passive devices used as couplers?
That is the only thing where I can't find a SS fix. And of course the fact that VT can and does a lot more than switch or act as a valve. Especially if you screw the circuit design :) - unwanted radiations of all kinds!
>>Edit
I struck out the question above as I have just skimmed over the PDF provided by Earl. This doesn't answer the question it just may provide the same effect. I need to read it completely.
HI
SOME MAY THING S ABOUT THAT TUBE IF TPU HAS TUBE I THING THE TUBES ONLY NEED TO DISCHARGE SMALL CAPACITY CAP WHIT HV DC FAST ????
HM LETS SAY SIMMPLE THINGS IF WE NEED TO CREATED STRONG ELKTRO MAGNET COIL HOW WE BE MADE STRONG ELKTROMAGNET COIL WHIT CAP AND SOME TUBE
..
OK SMALL ELKTRONICS PUMP THE SMALL CAP WHIT HV DC AND LET SAY FOR THIS JOB FOR CHARGYN CAP HE PUT 1 WATT IN ONE SECOND TIME AND THEN HV CAP IS FULL WHIT HV DC AND THEN TUBE MAKA SPARK AND DISCHARGE THE CAP IN TO THE SMALL COIL .. WHEN CAP IS DISCHARGE HI PRODUCED ONLY <<<COURRENT IN THE COIL ,,<<NO VOLTAGE ONLY COURRENT MUCH MORE THEN CAP WHIIL CHARGE ...HMMM SIMPLE ONE WATT ONE SECOND IN ENERGY 10 WATT PRODUCED WHEN IS DISCHARG IN THE COIL WHIT HELP LET SAY TIBE ,,,TUBE OF NEON BULB STARTER >>
HOW WE BE CREATED STRONG ELKTROMAGNET WHIT ONLY CUORRENT NO VOLTAGE WHEN IS DISCHARGE THE CAP
FRIEND ALL TIME A SAY <<THERE YOU FIND SIMPLE FORMULA BUT IS VERY GOOD FORMULA ... HOW WE BE MADE COIL VACUM ONLY WHIT AMPS WHEN IS DISCHARGE THE CAP ..I TELL YOU WE DONT NEED VOLTGE TO CREATED STRONG MAGNET FILD WE ONLY NEED AMPS WHITOUT VOLTAGE .... ANSFER IS DIS EFECTKT IS ONLY BE PRODUCED OF <<DISCHARGE THE CAP /..
CAP GIVE AS ONLY AMPS NO VOLTAGE ... A COILS IS NEED AMPS TO CREATED THE STRONG ELKTROMAGNET FILD HERE WAY IS NEED AMPS NO VOLTAGE FOR ELK.MAG, FILD HERE IS SIMPLE FORMULA LOOK AND ALL WE BE EASY TO ANDERSTEND
H = AMPERS / METER
H ---- IS ELEKTROMAGNET FORCE IN THE COIL
AND IF WE BE MADE SUCH AS LIKE THIS COIL WHIT PUT THIS AMPS THERE WE BE CREATED STRONG ELTRO MAGNET THERE HO WE BE PRODUCED MOVIN MAGNET FORCE TO EXIT COIL
LIKE SIMPLE TRANSFORMER IF TRANSFORMER HAS MORE ELKTROMAGENET FORCE IN THE CORE THEN THIS TR,, HAS MORE ABLE TO PRODUCED THIS FORCE IN TO THE ELKTRIC POWER
I SAY MAYBE S.M BIG TPU IS LIKE TESLA COIL I SEE THERE TWO BIG nf cap whit hv and this going to big ring of top of thr tpu ..cap is discharge directly in the top of the armature coil of top of the ring
@MAC
Great post. Glad you are pointing to the bailing wire. Also regarding your last sentence of Tesla coil, I had mentioned this here;
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3972.msg74722.html#msg74722
All the best.
ADDED:
There are four caps, two black in series probably 100uf 600V, and two yellow with series or parallel unknown. I would guess the black caps being in series are used as an output voltage stabilizer. The two yellow caps are most likely for discharge. Two caps for two LTPU sections (only). Not three. Now to charge the yellow caps, you need to put them in conjunction to a circuit or coil of high induction, then discharge into a circuit of low induction. I don't think there is anything any more complicated in the LTPU. The four center inductors are probably used too load the yellow caps.
@Macedonia CD
The control coil magnetic field needs a fast change in flux so as to induce a current in the armature coil. The faster it changes the higher the emf. That's why you need tubes or mosfets so that the rise ramp is as linear as possible in the control coils. In a normal transformer the armature current would induce a magnetic field that would resist the change in the propogating field. In the tpu the magnetic field of the armature coil is not in phase with the control coil input. The current was not induced by an impressed voltage but by a magnetic field density change more on the lines of a generator than a transformer. The changing magnetic field was radiated not induced. Of course the control coils will see a limiting magnetic field but the radiated energy has already done it's thing.
A second set of control coils and a second frequency will result in a pulsed tunneling magnetic field. The tpu then becomes very similar to a two-phase electric motor . The armature coil see's a pulsating rotational magnetic field.
This guy is a real artist when it comes to tubes. I wonder if he'd consider working on OU?
Interesting video related to tubes and the process of creation!
http://dailymotion.alice.it/video/x3wrzo_fabrication-dune-lampe-triode_tech
RH
@RobotHead
very nice video 8)
The attached pic is a merge between a tpu and a tesla transformer. The circle of tubes acts as the secondary in a tesla transformer. The motor and the tpu ring are a tesla primary. The tubes don't carry the current of the motor they just get the current circulating in the primary. Just thinking about how he got his car rolling with tubes a motor and some wire.
Here is a very interesting video a friend recommended for viewing.
His quote "I could eat this stuff up with a spoon!"
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3wrzo_fabrication-dune-lampe-triode_tech
All the best
Soma
@all
Two cheap sources for assorted old tubes. TV's...... In junk piles or garage sales..... You can still find them occasionally, and they are CHOCK FULL of oddball tubes. TV's have a large assortment of VHF/UHF tubes. Look for the antique looking TV's with the genuine wood case, and big as a dresser. I used to have a decent sized box full of tubes I scavenged out of only three TV sets. Best thing is you can also scavenge the tube sockets and tube RF shields this way.
Another place to look is antique electronic equipment, and old ham and other radio sets.
Right now, I have a couple of rectifiers that are as antique as you can find... They screw in like a light bulb, and are the size and shape of a large bartlett pear! (massive) Came out of an antique x-ray machine. :D
Paul Andrulis
Quote from: somamagus on May 07, 2008, 01:45:12 PM
Here is a very interesting video a friend recommended for viewing.
His quote "I could eat this stuff up with a spoon!"
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3wrzo_fabrication-dune-lampe-triode_tech
All the best
Soma
Try eating this with a spoon ;D
http://www.sparkbangbuzz.com/flame-amp/flameamp.htm
A repost with links made visible.
Quote from: orbs on July 28, 2007, 12:53:08 PM
Looking at the specs, it sounds like the E88CC (http://jj-electronic.sk//pdf/E88CC.pdf)/6922 dual triode (long-life version of ECC88/6DJ8/6N23P (http://jogis-roehrenbude.de/Roehren-Geschichtliches/ECC88-Familie/ECC88-Familie.htm)) would probably be a candidate. In particular, it is still being manufactured by JJ Electronic (http://jj-electronic.sk/) and available for a reasonable price (if you don't need gold pins (http://jogis-roehrenbude.de/Roehren-Geschichtliches/ECC88-Familie/JJ-E88CCGold/JJ-E88G.htm) ;)). The 6922 is also still being manufactured by Sovtek (http://sovtek.com) (also for Electro-Harmonix (http://ehx.com) as 6922EH). The PCC88/7DJ8 is the tv version of the ECC88 with 7V (or 300mA if connected in series) instead of 6.3V for heating.
[My idea being that if one already invests a lot of time then why not use a tube manufactured in this century and that has recently passed a functional check, rather than save a bit money (or likely pay even more for an old or NOS tube).]
A repost with links made visible.
Quote from: orbs on July 29, 2007, 05:23:41 AM
There are two experimenting kits (Franzis Lernpaket R?hrentechnik (http://franzis.de/online-shop/schule-beruf-ausbildung/lernpakete-elektronik/lernpaket-roehrentechnik) and Lernpaket R?hrenradios (http://b-kainka.de/lproeradios.htm)) that include such tubes (the kit creator (http://b-kainka.de) has even written a book (http://b-kainka.de/roehren.html) in German about tubes working with 6V-60V). However, they might be slower at these voltages (the speed of the electrons passing from cathode to anode is proportional to the square root of the voltage, so it depends what the distance between cathode and anode of a particular tube is to compare the different voltages).
On a somewhat related note, tubes seem to be more popular again, there are even some valve workshops (http://elektor.com/events/) about them.