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Hello,

over 28 years ago I had an idea for a generator. In October 2011 I aplied for the patent and since the documents have been published now, I want to put the information here for all to discuss and maybe find people to support my invention.
Find all the infos at http://farislandllc.com (english/german) or follow on facebook http://facebook.com/Energiegenerator (german).

Engineer needed for construction and building of the prototype.

Do you want to support this project and become part of it?
Are you an experienced engineer, maybe retired?
Do you have skills and machines to build this generator?

If you do and want to make this world a better place, then contact me or answer here.
Please state what you could do and what you would expect as a reward.

Quote from: RedEagle on June 29, 2013, 09:07:18 PM
Engineer needed for construction and building of the prototype.

Do you want to support this project and become part of it?
Are you an experienced engineer, maybe retired?
Do you have skills and machines to build this generator?

If you do and want to make this world a better place, then contact me or answer here.
Please state what you could do and what you would expect as a reward.

I doubt any engineer (at least any one with any understanding of thermodynamics) would get involved. The process you describe in the patent simply will not work unless you have access to an environmental temperature gradient. The efficiency possible is determined by the difference temperature of the hot and cold reservoirs.

You cannot use a device  to 'manufacture' that temperature gradient and expect to extract uasable work. The energy involved in doing that is ALWAYS more than the energy available to be captured by utilizing the manufactured temperature gradient. (2nd Law of thermodynamics applies here. Entropy of the system as a whole increases)

Quote from: LibreEnergia on June 29, 2013, 11:11:54 PM
I doubt any engineer (at least any one with any understanding of thermodynamics) would get involved. The process you describe in the patent simply will not work unless you have access to an environmental temperature gradient. The efficiency possible is determined by the difference temperature of the hot and cold reservoirs.

You cannot use a device  to 'manufacture' that temperature gradient and expect to extract uasable work. The energy involved in doing that is ALWAYS more than the energy available to be captured by utilizing the manufactured temperature gradient. (2nd Law of thermodynamics applies here. Entropy of the system as a whole increases)

With respect to all statement and with a humility , because I'm not an expert - you are wrong. It's not about manufacture the temperature gradient, it's a question if there is around a accumulated huge container having a higher temperature then the ambient background. To illustrate it imagine a big house perfectly insulated from the outside and with a big continuously working stove which keep it toasty warm inside. Now the thieft is outside in the cold winter and he is making a hole in the wall building  to get a warm air to keep himself warmed. The amount of energy and time required to do that is finite while the amount of heat obtained is not limited (stove in house is working 7/24).


To be more complete Nikola Tesla pointed to a few such examples much better explained then mine.

Quote from: forest on June 30, 2013, 02:30:45 AM

With respect to all statement and with a humility , because I'm not an expert - you are wrong. It's not about manufacture the temperature gradient, it's a question if there is around a accumulated huge container having a higher temperature then the ambient background. To illustrate it imagine a big house perfectly insulated from the outside and with a big continuously working stove which keep it toasty warm inside. Now the thieft is outside in the cold winter and he is making a hole in the wall building  to get a warm air to keep himself warmed. The amount of energy and time required to do that is finite while the amount of heat obtained is not limited (stove in house is working 7/24).


To be more complete Nikola Tesla pointed to a few such examples much better explained then mine.

With respect no, I am not wrong and I will use your own example to demonstrate why.

Let us assume we have the 'large perfectly insulated house with a stove inside' and backtrack a little to the point before the thief comes along and creates the hole.

We know, due the conservation of energy (the first law of thermodynamics is  re-statement of that) that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed from one form to another. Thus the stove is not 'creating 'energy. It is merely transforming it from one form, (chemical potential) to another,  heat.

Let's fast forward to the point where the stove runs out of fuel. Analysing the stove before that point is not important here. Thermodynamic devices of any kind have well known characteristics in converting a source of heat provided by combusting a fuel to work).

Once the fuel is exhausted, because the room is an adiabatic (perfectly insulated) container, eventually the heat from the stove becomes evenly distributed within the house.

At this point, even though the house contains a lot of heat energy we CANNOT use any of it to perform work. This is because the ability to do work is dependent on the DIFFERENCE in temperature between two points of reference.
'
Before the thief 'opens the hole', this is the 'AMBIENT' environment we have available to utilize to do work.

In such an environment we cannot, without introducing an external energy supply, create a temperature difference and then utilize that gradient to do the same or more work than the energy that was required to create the gradient. (2nd law of thermodynamics).

Now, you say, have the thief make a hole and energy will flow from the room to the environment. This is true of course as long as the temperature outside the house is lower than inside. While the temperature outside remains cooler than the inside we can use this differential to do work. Again this is of no real interest to us, as the characteristics of converting heat to work are well understood thermodynamically.

However, in doing this process What happens to the outside environment?.

It heats up. Eventually, given a large number of such houses and a immeasurably large but finite environment the temperature of every 'house' and every 'outside' reaches equilibrium and no further work is possible.


All of the above should serve to remind us that:

1. We need a temperature gradient to do work.
2. The efficiency of such a device is dependent on the difference in temperature of the gradient.
3. The characteristics and knowledge of what happens when we have such a gradient is well known to current science and engineering.
4. The device described in this patent application does not advance that knowledge.

QuoteLet us assume we have the 'large perfectly insulated house with a stove inside' and backtrack a little to the point before the thief comes along and creates the hole.We know, due the conservation of energy (the first law of thermodynamics is  re-statement of that) that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed from one form to another. Thus the stove is not 'creating 'energy. It is merely transforming it from one form, (chemical potential) to another,  heat.Let's fast forward to the point where the stove runs out of fuel. Analysing the stove before that point is not important here.

Your example is of course the good explanation of a law of theormodynamics , but it's completly different case...
It's simply  contrary to the assumptions on which are based my example. Stove is running continously , and even if it would someday run out of fuel it will be long after thief death. The stove for this house is our Sun , house is Earth and we are a thief robbing it from resources....


I think it would be better to use original Tesla examples if I could found it. Need some time to recall where I saw them.
This is nothing wrong or against the physic laws, it's exactly what we are doing every day with heat pumps. What I tried to explain is that this is not about creating gradient because it won't work obviously, but this is about creating a sink of energy already present in background.

Quote
1. We need a temperature gradient to do work. 2. The efficiency of such a device is dependent on the difference in temperature of the gradient. 3. The characteristics and knowledge of what happens when we have such a gradient is well known to current science and engineering.4. The device described in this patent application does not advance that knowledge.

1. We are in the place of much higher temperature then the "background". Earth temperature is much higher then outer space.
2. Sure. That's why we cannot do that by simple device (I would call it linear) as the difference between two points along the device is insignificant. Gradient is small if any.
3.SURE.
4.I don't know German :-( but I have described the process on which any devices are based , not this one particulalry. I will point to the Tesla statements later. This is very bracing to read them, because there is HOPE.

Quote from: forest on June 30, 2013, 05:25:25 AM

Your example is of course the good explanation of a law of theormodynamics , but it's completly different case...
It's simply  contrary to the assumptions on which are based my example. Stove is running continously , and even if it would someday run out of fuel it will be long after thief death. The stove for this house is our Sun , house is Earth and we are a thief robbing it from resources....


I think it would be better to use original Tesla examples if I could found it. Need some time to recall where I saw them.
This is nothing wrong or against the physic laws, it's exactly what we are doing every day with heat pumps. What I tried to explain is that this is not about creating gradient because it won't work obviously, but this is about creating a sink of energy already present in background.

It's not really a 'different case'. If you consider 'the stove' is the sun then this is no different from generating energy from any form of solar energy. In this I would include photo voltaic , hydro, wind, concentrating solar thermal, or any other technology that relies on an potential gradient  provided directly or indirectly by the sun.
We pretty much understand the how's and why's of all these technologies and they are well characterised by existing knowledge without to resort to more esoteric theory.

Now if you were to propose creating a potential difference using time travel such as this guy' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGdrpt_UlOk) assures us is possible then I might think there is something to get interested in.

After all we'd only need to create a space-time wormhole from a nice summer day in the present to the depths winter in the last ice-age and we'd be able to extract any amount of energy we required. The problem being neither I nor anyone else (including the technology disclosed in this patent application) has any idea how to achieve such a thing , or if they do they are keeping  it secret for now.   

Quote from: LibreEnergia on June 29, 2013, 11:11:54 PM
I doubt any engineer (at least any one with any understanding of thermodynamics) would get involved. The process you describe in the patent simply will not work unless you have access to an environmental temperature gradient. The efficiency possible is determined by the difference temperature of the hot and cold reservoirs.

You cannot use a device  to 'manufacture' that temperature gradient and expect to extract uasable work. The energy involved in doing that is ALWAYS more than the energy available to be captured by utilizing the manufactured temperature gradient. (2nd Law of thermodynamics applies here. Entropy of the system as a whole increases)

The second law of thermodynamics describes a movement of heat ernergy from one reservoir to another. that is as simple as lifting a weight.
You put energy in to lift it and gain the same amount of energy back when it drops.
Since you won't be able to convert all of that energy to usable energy you will end up with less than you first put in.
Heat works about the same as described in the carnot cycle.
You put in work to transport heat to a higher level and transporting it back to the old level will deliver the same amount of energy.
But to come back to the first example... how if your weight could drop deaper than it was in the first place?
Like it could drop in a hole?
You would end up with more energy than you put in resulting in the weight having less potential energy.
That is what my device does with heat.
It's not generating energy out of nothing but uses the potential energy of heat.
In a closed room it would cool down the room and at a certain point it would stop working.
It needs constant energy supply to run.
Considering the first law of thermodynamics you will have to agree, that the airstream thru the generator will leave it cooler than it came in and thus this energy has to be somewhere.
Now where in that machine is the break of the second law of thermodynamics?
There is none.
All processes in the generator are known and can be calculated.
I already had 3 physicians telling me it can't work because it would break the second law of thermodynamics, but none of them was able to show me where.
They found no error in the calculations nor logical and finally had to admit, that it does not break the second law of thermodynamics.
Its Like the second law of thermodynamics describs two reservoirs of water at different levels.
If you pump water from the lower to the higher reservoir it takes energy and you wont get more back by letting the water flow back to the lower.
Simple and easy to understand.
But it does not prevent a waterwheel in a waterfall from producing energy.

sorry no cigar , many other attempts at similar approaches some almost 100 years old.
Take notice of Libre Energia
Mark

Quote from: markdansie on June 30, 2013, 07:11:05 AM
sorry no cigar , many other attempts at similar approaches some almost 100 years old.
Take notice of Libre Energia
Mark

Good thing I didn't want a cigar.
Easy to say it can not work because of the second law of thermodynamics.
But still nobody is able to tell me where it breaks that law.
Benz's engine was not the first attempt to run a motor on explosives... well, we do have cars.
So other approaches don't mean it can't work.

Quote from: RedEagle on June 30, 2013, 07:00:18 AM

But to come back to the first example... how if your weight could drop deaper than it was in the first place?
Like it could drop in a hole?
You would end up with more energy than you put in resulting in the weight having less potential energy.
That is what my device does with heat.

and just were does this 'hole' come from? Either it existed in the environment before hand and your device did not need to create it.  In that case your device simply describes a heat engine operating between a hot and cold reservoir and the characteristics of these are well known already.

OR alternatively , you had to 'dig the hole yourself'.

If this is the case , the 2nd Law tells us that the process of digging will expend more energy than can be recovered than by dropping a weight, or heat, or whatever into it.

It doesn't work. But don't take my word for it. I've been banned from this forum more times than I care to remember for pointing out the meaning of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, so I must wrong :)

It's funny and silly to follow that discussion. Nobody states that laws of thermodynamic are wrong. In case of lake Sun is doing work to convert water into steam which ends up again in the lake. The difference between speed of the water flow and re-generation by Sun plus a huge amount of water in lake and all other factors like Sun energy , Earth area and so on makes it possible to tap energy from the source already here.


Still searching for Tesla examples....

Quote from: LibreEnergia on June 30, 2013, 07:39:45 AM
and just were does this 'hole' come from? Either it existed in the environment before hand and your device did not need to create it.  In that case your device simply describes a heat engine operating between a hot and cold reservoir and the characteristics of these are well known already.

OR alternatively , you had to 'dig the hole yourself'.

If this is the case , the 2nd Law tells us that the process of digging will expend more energy than can be recovered than by dropping a weight, or heat, or whatever into it.

It doesn't work. But don't take my word for it. I've been banned from this forum more times than I care to remember for pointing out the meaning of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, so I must wrong :)

It's not that I don't believe in the second law of thermodynamics.
I do think it is right, but the implications taken from it may be wrong in some means.
Like your example with the weight. Sure it takes energy to dig the hole, but if the ground is lighter than the weight it takes less energy than the weight can produce on its way down. That way you end up with an energy plus without braking the second law.

Your username makes me assume you believe in a way to produce free energy. Does not every overunity device break the first law of thermodynamics?

All I ask is to tell me where I am wrong, where the second law of thermodynamics is broken.
I haven't got an answer to that from anyone yet and I did not find it myself though I was searching for many years, calculating it over and over again.

  The laws of Thermodynamics pertain to kinetic energy.  A heated molecule jitters about due to the expansion and contraction of the chemical bonds of the molecule.   Infrared radiation 1/4 wavelength fits in nicely to the hydroxide bond length.  It stretches it or compresses it.  This causes the molecule to start vibrating.  Hydroxides are found in all water due to the ability of water to self-ionize.   The hydroxide ions form on the surface interface just like electrons form on the surface interface of a piece of wire.  The molecule then acts as an antennae for infrared waves.  The waves stress the bond and the bond acts like a spring stretched.    This is why when you go swimming there is a thin layer of heated water on the surface that is many degrees warmer than the water just 6 inches down.   This is why I find it amazing that ocean thermal energy converters would have to use such a deep water cold scource when the most temperature gradient is in the first 6" of water all over the planet including fresh water lakes.  Another huge temperature gradient would be a buried evaporator in the desert.  You wait for the temperatures to drop to near freezing at night and run your heat engine in pulse mode.  Twelve hour pulses.  The deserts lack water vapor therefore the air temperatures are extreme.  I wouldn't think that fans are a good way to heat the cold air.  I would use electro-magnetic radiation as my radiator.  Run a couple of motors in the middle of the circuit to get some of that heat to where it is needed but just moving it a couple of inches away isn't very efficient.  Another good heat gradient is where rainwater that has traveled through the ground meets up with standing water in a swamp.   The water in the spring fed flow is usually around 60 degrees.  The water that has been laying around in the swamps can be in the high eighties.   Evaporator in the swamp condenser in the river.  Florida's shelf is ideal for this.  Moisture dumped on the shelf runs through underground caverns and emerges at the swamps where it mixes directly with the heated water heading to the sea.   The rain water in the swamps moves like a foot or two an hour where it becomes very heated.  The river currents can be a foot or two a second.

Ok. Simple question : around us temperature is like 20 C , to do that there is energy required because temperature outside Earth is much much lower... where is this energy  coming from ?


Ok, now the first portion of lecture from our master Tesla :
"I was vainly endeavoring to form an idea of how this might be accomplished, when I read some statements from Carnot and Lord Kelvin (then Sir William Thomson) which meant virtually that it is impossible for an inanimate mechanism or self-acting machine to cool a portion of the medium below the temperature of the surrounding, and operate by the heat abstracted.  These statements interested me intensely.  Evidently a living being could do this very thing, and since the experiences of my early life which I have related had convinced me that a living being is only an automaton, or, otherwise stated, a "self-acting-engine," I came to the conclusion that it was possible to construct a machine which would do the same.  As the first step toward this realization I conceived the following mechanism. Imagine a thermopile consisting of a number of bars of metal extending from the earth to the outer space beyond the atmosphere.  The heat from below, conducted upward along these metal bars, would cool the earth or the sea or the air, according to the location of the lower parts of the bars, and the result, as is well known, would be an electric current circulating in these bars.  The two terminals of the thermopile could now be joined through an electric motor, and, theoretically, this motor would run on and on, until the media below would be cooled down to the temperature of the outer space.  This would be an inanimate engine which, to all evidence, would be cooling a portion of the medium below the temperature of the surrounding, and operating by the heat abstracted."[/size]

[/size]

[/size]
The rest can be read in this article : [/size][size=78%]http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1900-06-00.htm (http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1900-06-00.htm)[/size]


This one article weight more then all discussion. OPEN YOUR MIND.

Quote from: forest on June 30, 2013, 02:18:35 PM
Ok. Simple question : around us temperature is like 20 C , to do that there is energy required because temperature outside Earth is much much lower... where is this energy  coming from ?


Ok, now the first portion of lecture from our master Tesla :
"I was vainly endeavoring to form an idea of how this might be accomplished, when I read some statements from Carnot and Lord Kelvin (then Sir William Thomson) which meant virtually that it is impossible for an inanimate mechanism or self-acting machine to cool a portion of the medium below the temperature of the surrounding, and operate by the heat abstracted.  These statements interested me intensely.  Evidently a living being could do this very thing, and since the experiences of my early life which I have related had convinced me that a living being is only an automaton, or, otherwise stated, a "self-acting-engine," I came to the conclusion that it was possible to construct a machine which would do the same.  As the first step toward this realization I conceived the following mechanism. Imagine a thermopile consisting of a number of bars of metal extending from the earth to the outer space beyond the atmosphere.  The heat from below, conducted upward along these metal bars, would cool the earth or the sea or the air, according to the location of the lower parts of the bars, and the result, as is well known, would be an electric current circulating in these bars.  The two terminals of the thermopile could now be joined through an electric motor, and, theoretically, this motor would run on and on, until the media below would be cooled down to the temperature of the outer space.  This would be an inanimate engine which, to all evidence, would be cooling a portion of the medium below the temperature of the surrounding, and operating by the heat abstracted."[/size]

[/size]

[/size]
The rest can be read in this article : [/size][size=78%]http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1900-06-00.htm (http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1900-06-00.htm)[/size]


This one article weight more then all discussion. OPEN YOUR MIND.

It is clear to me that Tesla did not understand thermodynamics. What he proposes is of course perfectly workable (if not completely practical given the engineering required) and is not at odds with the 2nd Law. He proposes using an environmentally available temperature gradient , being the difference in temperature between the earth and outer space to extract energy from.

This device is different. It proposes to create a temperature difference using energy and then extract more work form that difference than is required to create it. If it doesn't do that then it is simply a heat engine operating between two heat reservoirs with otherwise unremarkable design or usage.

I be a pictures man, so am not quite sure, though it looks as if you have patented an absorption fridge's first stage. If so the idea will work. In a absorption fridge refrigerant liquid is boiled to a high pressure gas head blocked by a restrictor in a fridge this be a plate with a tiny hole. Heat is energy so the energy used up in getting the refrigerant past the restrictor leaves the refrigerant cold. The cold refrigerant then moved into the boiler. Replacement of fridge restrictor part with a turbine turns prior wasted energy into turbine motion.

    There are these massive structures in the desert that are heat sunk to underground aquifers.   The skin of these structures were coated with a substance that gets hot when the sun shines on it.   Various conduits extend from the skin of the structure to a central processing area within the structure.   Air traveling along the heated skin enters the structure via these conduits.  The heated air is cooled as it travels through the heat sunk core where it becomes more dense and falls through a large channel allowing water vapor in the air to condense and flow into the underground aquifer forced on by gravity.  On it's route to the aquifer it flows through various insulated structures that need air conditioning for it's inhabitants.  The cooled air with it's saturated vapor at 60degrees is discharged at the base of the structure where it is heated as it travels up the side of the structure towards the draft portals.   The air as it passes in the system  is exposed to ionizing radiation.  This causes the air to become ionized where it is passed through a magneto-hydro-dynamic generator that generates electricity for things you can do with electricity like light the community.  The draft is induced by a large structure brought to mechanical resonance by the use of sound waves.  Once initiated the pump is no longer used and valves in the input channels are moved to fully open.  At night the whole process is reversed when the dew point outside the structure is lower than that inside the structure.  Air exiting the structure forms condensate as it exits the structure.  The water via gravity flows to the pools at the base of the structure.  The air itself rises causing a draft to be initiated over the pools.  This lowers the vapor pressure over the pools allowing for the air to become supersaturated and rain down the sides of the structure upon discharge from the draft portals.

@libre,a temperature difference can be created(where there was none before) with no expenditure of energy on our part,ive seen it happen.come lets discuss what happens in a paramagnetic core in a oscillating inductor circuit,the most common theme of experiments here and on other forums.

 You know... No offense to some chatting here but you know nothing of what tesla was trying to do. He knew more about thermodynamics then any alive today.


Lets check the real info out here.


Oliver Nichelson Is the Author of the book "Nikola Tesla's later Energy Generation Designs"


In this book there is a great many references to facts and quotes from Tesla about his ideas in thermodynamics and how the one principle can be transposed to other areas like electronic phenomena.


Read it please:


http://home.earthlink.net/~drestinblack/generator.htm


If you go down to the part where this statement is,"It was also in 1893 that Tesla applied for a patent on an electrical coil that is the most likely candidate for a non-mechanical successor of his energy extractor. This is his "Coil for Electro-magnets," patent #512,340. It is another curious design because, unlike an ordinary coil made by turning wire on a tube form, this one uses two wires laid next to each other on a form but with the end of the first one connected to the beginning of the second one."
you'll understand more about the process and it's parallel works by other scientists at the time. Keep reading and it will become clear. Linde condenser is the mechanical form and the proof that it was indeed possible to create this system even in the form of electronic device.

Quote from: jbignes5 on July 01, 2013, 05:15:57 PM
You know... No offense to some chatting here but you know nothing of what tesla was trying to do. He knew more about thermodynamics then any alive today.


Lets check the real info out here.


Oliver Nichelson Is the Author of the book "Nikola Tesla's later Energy Generation Designs"


In this book there is a great many references to facts and quotes from Tesla about his ideas in thermodynamics and how the one principle can be transposed to other areas like electronic phenomena.


Read it please:


http://home.earthlink.net/~drestinblack/generator.htm

Nothing in that link causes me to rescind the assertion that Telsa, (like most people)  did not really understand the meaning of the 2nd Law.

Notice the part:  "Tesla stated he first started thinking about the idea when he read a statement by Lord Kelvin who said it was impossible to build a mechanism capable of abstracting heat from the surrounding medium and to operate by that heat."...

This is one consequence of the second law and that statement by Kelvin still stands today.

Tesla then goes on to propose a device that is not in any way in contradiction of the 2nd law. He describes using an existing environmental energy gradient (being the energy difference found between the sun incident on the earth and outer-space.)

Should such a machine be able to be constructed it would work and wouldn't violate any physical laws as we know them, as they existed then or now.

The language used by Kelvin is not particularly precise and perhaps is the reason for the confusion.

Quote from: LibreEnergia on July 01, 2013, 09:12:36 PM
Nothing in that link causes me to rescind the assertion that Telsa, (like most people)  did not really understand the meaning of the 2nd Law.

Notice the part:  "Tesla stated he first started thinking about the idea when he read a statement by Lord Kelvin who said it was impossible to build a mechanism capable of abstracting heat from the surrounding medium and to operate by that heat."...

This is one consequence of the second law and that statement by Kelvin still stands today.

Tesla then goes on to propose a device that is not in any way in contradiction of the 2nd law. He describes using an existing environmental energy gradient (being the energy difference found between the sun incident on the earth and outer-space.)

Should such a machine be able to be constructed it would work and wouldn't violate any physical laws as we know them, as they existed then or now.

The language used by Kelvin is not particularly precise and perhaps is the reason for the confusion.

Obviously you didn't read the full article. Tesla investigated many more possible methods of obtaining energy from background and has given one example how to use gradient without necessairly going to outer-space. The problem with all those is the required positive feedback which makes the method dangerous if not controlled properly. Somehow fortunately nature is giving us a lot of governons restricting such feedback in various clever ways.

Quote from: LibreEnergia on July 01, 2013, 09:12:36 PM
Nothing in that link causes me to rescind the assertion that Telsa, (like most people)  did not really understand the meaning of the 2nd Law.

Notice the part:  "Tesla stated he first started thinking about the idea when he read a statement by Lord Kelvin who said it was impossible to build a mechanism capable of abstracting heat from the surrounding medium and to operate by that heat."...

This is one consequence of the second law and that statement by Kelvin still stands today.

Tesla then goes on to propose a device that is not in any way in contradiction of the 2nd law. He describes using an existing environmental energy gradient (being the energy difference found between the sun incident on the earth and outer-space.)

Should such a machine be able to be constructed it would work and wouldn't violate any physical laws as we know them, as they existed then or now.

The language used by Kelvin is not particularly precise and perhaps is the reason for the confusion.

Nothing really? Then you my friend have zero clue about anything at all then.


It is quite clear that the process that Linde experimented with was exactly the proof that Tesla needed to go forward with his own ideas about how to extract heat and or any energy for that matter from the surrounding medium. In the case of Linde he was using the lack of heat to create an even more lack of heat in a self cooling method to create liquid oxygen. This is the whole concept of the bifilar pancake coil that Tesla patented. Tesla knew that if a principle of one area was a foundation principle then it could be applied to any method to self cool or even self accelerate energy. This could only be done if the original idea was a foundation principle. The Bifilar coil is exactly that.


If we look into the bifilar coil even further we find that not only does it increase the voltage of a pulse, it does it without slowing the pulse down. In fact it speeds the pulse up because in a bifilar coil there is little to no inductive restriction. The only resistance in a bifilar coil is only the resistance of the wire itself and if you parallel coils that resistance can be made to nullify itself just like paralleling regular resistors.


Ever heard of the Gegene? This is yet another proof that Tesla was in fact Correct.


What I think you need to do is stop being sooo blind and open your eyes to the real facts. If this is a violation of the Thermodynamic laws then maybe those ideas are not true laws. Maybe Thermodynamics are merely guidelines when dealing with a specific situation. Maybe when dealing with permanent magnets and coils designed in this fashion, those guidelines don't apply?

@jbignes5..chek out the simplest example of a clear 2nd law breach..take a concave mirror and point it near an object in your room.the spot at the focus point will heat up above the average ambient temp.a total smash of kelvin,s crap generalisation.

@jbignes5,notice how libre will directly avoid a discussion with me.he is scared of physicists who disagree with kelvin,s crap.

 They avoid what they don't understand. It's clear they idolize certain aspects of the new ways and reject without thought of the old ways. If they looked and understood the old ways they would see clear evidence, empirical evidence, that law is not a law in every circumstance. This is the way of sheeple. They follow without question.


A great man once said:


"Question everything. Learn something. Answer nothing."

Euripides

So again what about the Linde device do you not understand? A self cooling device that could more then enough create a vast difference in temperature to generate energy in the very same process of condensing oxygen into a liquid and be self powering as well to boot.

In Tesla's view this could be transposed to the electrical phenomena. He created a bifilar coil do not only boost the potential of the energy by accelerating the charges in the coil through self induction of the bifilar channels but also increase the capacity of the coil to handle vastly increased charges. There is also the ability of the coil to enhance the magnetic portion of the coil, which means it has a stranger magnetic component in the same instance. This has been shown over and over in a vast array of experiments with the bifilar method. Charge acceleration is also used in the Large particle accelerators of our day.
Thane Hines also proved that rotor acceleration happens when you include a high voltage component buried in a low voltage coil. In order for this to happen you must separate the coils via self termination of the high voltage component.

The other way to do such a thing is to use the high voltage into a designed device then use a transformer like action to transform the voltage to lower voltage inside of that transformer. Why do you think Tesla called his latter devices like motor, transformers? So you get the almost lossless transportation of the higher voltage to the device then transform it into high current inside of that device. With the right coils one can magnify this process and net more out then in.

All matter works in this way. All objects in the universe works this way. Why exactly do you think outer space is so cold?

Einstien was completely wrong about matter. It does not contain any energy. Matter displaces the medium which is full of energy. This displacement of the medium is what gives mass it's energy value. It does not contain any energy itself but induces a value from it's environment in the medium. If the medium was absent then all matter in that void would have zero energy. But because the medium is everywhere, just varied densities, then all matter can be detected by our eyes and devices. The only exception to this rule is Black Holes. This is where matter is transparent to all detection unless we look for voids and assume there is a Black Hole at that point. The reason the matter collected at that point is not sensed is because that matter has become totally inert and passes all energy like glass passes light. But it also creates a void in the medium which centers itself and creates a true zero space. This is due to the massive amount of crushed matter that has been stripped of all of it's potential and becomes true zero space. Matter is the reason for this possibility since matter displaces the medium. In this case matter has totally displaced the medium and nothing can detect energy from that space except for looking for the absence of energy. This is also evident by the massive energy emitted from an active black hole at it's poles. Likewise this is a good way to sense an active Black Hole since energy is ejected from the matter as it gets crushed. This is due to the medium being displaced by the crushed matter.

These concepts were being worked on by Tesla and other Aetheric scientists. Only in Tesla's case he had empirical evidence that has been crushed into obscurity and brushed aside like other unusual forms of Science. Look at things like Static machines and we can now understand why they exist and how to utilize this to our advantage. Ignore these things and we will forever be paying for our energy and creating math and theories that have no base in fact to explain what we see but don't understand.

Jbignes5:

QuoteSo you get the almost lossless transportation of the higher voltage to the device then transform it into high current inside of that device. With the right coils one can magnify this process and net more out then in.

On another thread we looked at the "series" bifilar coil patent and found noting special.  I noticed your other comments about the Tesla bifilar coil and they reflect a belief system rather than fact.

As Mark said, LibreEnergia is correct on the thermodynamics stuff.  On the electronics stuff your belief system is just that, a belief system.  You can't actually do bench experiments to confirm your statements.

Going back to the bifilar coil for electromagnets and Tesla's patent, all that the patent says is that you can make a self-resonatng coil with interwoven windings of a single conductor such that the interwoven windings create a higher voltage gradient between adjacent loops of the coil.  Using the term "bifilar" is actually a misnomer, because the coil consists of a single wire only.

Using the interwoven winding technique will give you a coil with marginally different characteristics from a similar coil that is conventionally wound, and that's about it.  The main characteristic that the two coils will share is their inductance, and that will be approximately the same.  The capacitive effects associated with the interweaving are minuscule as compared to the inductive effects.

The patent just describes the coil and it's properties, it does not mention a single practical application for the coil.  I believe that what has happened is that over enthusiasm with respect to the Tesla bifilar coil for electromagnets has resulted in a lot of wishful thinking about what you can do with it that has no basis in fact.

MileHigh

@jbignes.dont listen to milehigh.he cant explain to us why a concave mirror in a isothermal box raises the temperature of its focal point above ambient.we must only listen to complainants who can prove me wrong ibignes.

Quote from: MileHigh on July 02, 2013, 01:39:41 PM
Jbignes5:

On another thread we looked at the "series" bifilar coil patent and found noting special.  I noticed your other comments about the Tesla bifilar coil and they reflect a belief system rather than fact.

As Mark said, LibreEnergia is correct on the thermodynamics stuff.  On the electronics stuff your belief system is just that, a belief system.  You can't actually do bench experiments to confirm your statements.

Going back to the bifilar coil for electromagnets and Tesla's patent, all that the patent says is that you can make a self-resonatng coil with interwoven windings of a single conductor such that the interwoven windings create a higher voltage gradient between adjacent loops of the coil.  Using the term "bifilar" is actually a misnomer, because the coil consists of a single wire only.

Using the interwoven winding technique will give you a coil with marginally different characteristics from a similar coil that is conventionally wound, and that's about it.  The main characteristic that the two coils will share is their inductance, and that will be approximately the same.  The capacitive effects associated with the interweaving are minuscule as compared to the inductive effects.

The patent just describes the coil and it's properties, it does not mention a single practical application for the coil.  I believe that what has happened is that over enthusiasm with respect to the Tesla bifilar coil for electromagnets has resulted in a lot of wishful thinking about what you can do with it that has no basis in fact.

MileHigh

Again the genene is what to you. And yes I am in the middle of testing a new experiment that proves this concept beyond a shadow of a doubt. Again ignore the work of others as you will but it is valid and tested by credible experimenters with video proof. My proof will be forming and video proof will be provided.


So you investigated the bifilar coil in pancake form? Highly doubtful. The increased capacity between the two coils hooked up not in series but diametrical opposite polarities in series is not unusual to you? How about the unusual boosting beyond the capability of a normal pancake coil? No... still no idea what your talking about? Obviously.


The patent in itself Says this and I quote:


"In electric apparatus or systems in which alternating currents are employed the self-induction of the coils or conductors may, and in fact, in many cases does operate disadvantagely by giving rise to false currents which often reduce what is known as the commercial efficiency of the apparatus composing the system or operate detrimentally in other respects. The effects of self-induction, above referred to, are known to be neutralized by proportioning to a proper degree the capacity of the circuit with relation to the self-induction and frequency of the currents. This has been accomplished heretofore by the use of condensers constructed and applied as separate instruments. My present invention has for its object to avoid the employment of condensers which are expensive, cumbersome and difficult to maintain in perfect condition, and to so construct the coils themselves as to accomplish the same ultimate object."

Also lets read really what Tesla knew of this effect:

"I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction. This is due to the mutual relations existing between the special character of the current and the self-induction and capacity of the coil, the latter quantity being just capable of neutralizing the self-induction for that frequency. It is well-known that the higher the frequency or potential difference of the current the smaller the capacity required to counteract the self-induction; hence, in any coil, however small the capacity, it may be sufficient for the purpose stated if the proper conditions in other respects be secured. In the ordinary coils the difference of potential between adjacent turns or spires is very small, so that while they are in a sense condensers, they possess but very small capacity and the relations between the two quantities, self-induction and capacity, are not such as under any ordinary conditions satisfy the requirements herein contemplated, because the capacity relatively to the self-induction is very small."

Obviously you can not read and understand the concept.

Now lets look at the parallel to linde's device:

Von Linde used a process that cuts the energy requirements in half or more by circulating the gasses in a spiral tube first in one direction down the stack then back up the stack in the opposite direction. This accomplishes the double cooling effect by the same stream of air. The end of the tube is used then to draw heat away from the air just entering the stack.

If we apply this to what we see in the bifilar coil design patented by Tesla we see that the energy exiting the end of the series coils pulls on the energy entering the coils. This is the acceleration of the energy or charges and the increased capacitance of the setup allows for expansion of the potential difference and subsequent acceleration of the charges entering the coils. This is the same process they use in accelerating particles in the larger particle accelerators. What charges are is to be debated in another topic but lets just agree that it is the very same process.

Now what happens when the bifilar coil is used in the way that the gegene uses them. Inductively the charges are pumped through the bifilar mass and into the load creating a much greater efficiency of the supplied signal by the induction cooker. This is working on a closed loop of bifilar coil to load circuit and has little do with any initiating expense of the induction cooker. In fact it could be looped back to the induction cooker via a 1to1 transformer and diode rectifier to supply a stripped version of current for an inverter to supply the induction cooker with. Just like Kapanadze did with his unit. In fact I believe this is exactly how kapanadze did this.

The bifilar coil is the perfect antenna for RF signals. It has a 1to1 ratio and will not reflect any signal back to the supply because of the coils ability to use both halves of the signal and had 0 self induction. The voltage rise does not come from self induction because the increased capacitance cancels out the self induction. The increased voltage comes from the acceleration due to the geometry of the pathways of the in and out points not from traditional self inductance and the increased current also comes from the this process. Hence the higher magnetic response when driven directly of the bifilar coil. The acceleration is also due to the resistance of the design. Both self induction (which is zero due to increased capacity) and the resistance of the wire (which is minimal) allows for a 1000 fold output from a source when compared to another design like a regular pancake coil.

There are two modes to bifilar coils. An active mode and a passive mode. In active mode there is an increase in voltage field radiations which leads to increased magnetic field radiations. In passive mode (as a receiver of any field) it has less restrictive reflections to the source of that field allowing for better transfer of the fields and acceleration of the potential via charge acceleration of the mass of the bifilar coil. A bigger mass in this case would increase output via displacement current of the copper of the bifilar coil. The higher capacitance also plays a role in the swing value of the displacement current.

I suspect Tesla didn't know this stuff he only felt it had better users in regular direct driven coils. His purposes also were in the use of high frequency pulses he was using in his energy transmitter circuits. Unfortunately he got distracted from his investigations by the transmitter work and left it up to us to discover it's usefulness in other endeavors. Which people like JLN Labs have discovered.

Obviously your investigations were sidetracked by disinformation people. Obviously they succeeded in keeping you from the real design of the coil. And obviously someone edited the original patent to not include all the information Tesla included. If you look at the whole patent it was very curt in it's explanation of the coil, which is mostly unlike Tesla and his other patents.

If what I and others are finding out about this coil design doesn't fit with your dogma then go about your business and leave the real work to the REAL scientists in our community.

To tell you the truth you are stuck on what you believe in. You believe the theories of others without proof. When proof does come around you scoff at it's validity without trial. Simply on your belief that your theories are correct. Oh by the way most are finding out that your theories are in error now. One by one they are falling to the wayside by empirical evidence and not blind faith.

**Reference to particle accelerator methodology**
"Physicists use particle accelerators to study the nature of matter and energy. The massive machines accelerate charged particles (ions) through an electric field in a hollow, evacuated tube, eventually colliding each ion with a stationary target or another moving particle."

"Most particle accelerators use electric fields to accelerate charged particles and magnetic fields to guide them. In general, the electric field can be set up to accelerate either negatively or positively charged particles, including particles of antimatter. A magnetic field exerts a force on moving charged particles in such a way that it acts at right angles to the direction in which the particles are moving. The strength of the magnetic field controls the degree to which the charged particles will curve as they move through the field. The magnetic field can thus be used to make charged particles move in a circular path while the electrical fields are used to boost the energy of the particle to higher and higher levels."

Jbignes5:

Looking forward to seeing your video.

QuoteThe increased capacity between the two coils hooked up not in series but diametrical opposite polarities in series is not unusual to you? How about the unusual boosting beyond the capability of a normal pancake coil? No... still no idea what your talking about? Obviously.

I don't know what you mean by "diametrical opposite polarities in series" but I am assuming that you are not referring to having the two coils act in self-cancellation mode because then you don't have an inductor any more.  To answer your question the increased capacity between the two coils that make up the device is not unusual to me.  That's a just function of geometry.

You have to define what you mean by "unusual boosting."  Boosting of what?  Electronics can be very nuts and bolts and at times you have to really define what you mean.  So I can't respond to that statement right now.

With respect to your two quotes from the patent, you said. "Obviously you can not read and understand the concept."  In fact I clearly demonstrated that I understand the patent in my previous posting.  So what's so obvious?  What am I not understanding?  Again, you have to define what you are talking about.

QuoteIf we apply this to what we see in the bifilar coil design patented by Tesla we see that the energy exiting the end of the series coils pulls on the energy entering the coils. This is the acceleration of the energy or charges and the increased capacitance of the setup allows for expansion of the potential difference and subsequent acceleration of the charges entering the coils. This is the same process they use in accelerating particles in the larger particle accelerators. What charges are is to be debated in another topic but lets just agree that it is the very same process.

Talking about energy entering one end of a coil and exiting the other end does not make any sense.  Talking about the accelerating of the charges is appropriate for a particle accelerator but not for a coil.  There are no similar processes taking place.

QuoteNow what happens when the bifilar coil is used in the way that the gegene uses them. Inductively the charges are pumped through the bifilar mass and into the load creating a much greater efficiency of the supplied signal by the induction cooker. This is working on a closed loop of bifilar coil to load circuit and has little do with any initiating expense of the induction cooker. In fact it could be looped back to the induction cooker via a 1to1 transformer and diode rectifier to supply a stripped version of current for an inverter to supply the induction cooker with. Just like Kapanadze did with his unit. In fact I believe this is exactly how kapanadze did this.

You may believe that you are making a valid point here, and your terminology all makes sense.  In fact it's making very little sense and is very difficult to respond to.

QuoteThe bifilar coil is the perfect antenna for RF signals. It has a 1to1 ratio and will not reflect any signal back to the supply because of the coils ability to use both halves of the signal and had 0 self induction.

You are still really far "out there."  There is no such thing as a "perfect antenna for RF signals" and you can't just use the term "RF signals" without qualifying it in the context of the point you are trying to make.  Zero self induction only occurs at a single frequency but I am not getting the sense that you are aware of this.

QuoteThere are two modes to bifilar coils. An active mode and a passive mode. In active mode there is an increase in voltage field radiations which leads to increased magnetic field radiations. In passive mode (as a receiver of any field) it has less restrictive reflections to the source of that field allowing for better transfer of the fields and acceleration of the potential via charge acceleration of the mass of the bifilar coil. A bigger mass in this case would increase output via displacement current of the copper of the bifilar coil. The higher capacitance also plays a role in the swing value of the displacement current.

Still more stuff that is too far "out there."  Tesla made no claims whatsoever about any RF transmitter/receiver attributes of his bifilar coil.  Nor did he claim that it outputs an increased magnetic field like I heard from people on another thread.  Your comments about the receiver capabilities of the coil make no real sense.

QuoteObviously your investigations were sidetracked by disinformation people. Obviously they succeeded in keeping you from the real design of the coil.

Like I said in my original posting, you, along with many others, are superimposing your wishes and fantasies about the Tesla bifilar coil on the reality of the coil and constructing a false narrative.  Many of the enthusiasts buy into it and that's not healthy.  Just treat the patent and any Tesla bifilar coils you build on the bench at face value, and do some tests and work with the real data that you see.

QuoteAnd obviously someone edited the original patent to not include all the information Tesla included. If you look at the whole patent it was very curt in it's explanation of the coil, which is mostly unlike Tesla and his other patents.

That's just more fodder for the imaginary constructed narrative.  There was no reason to edit the patent and the patent reviewer would almost certainly have been unable to edit it even if he wanted to.

QuoteTo tell you the truth you are stuck on what you believe in. You believe the theories of others without proof. When proof does come around you scoff at it's validity without trial. Simply on your belief that your theories are correct. Oh by the way most are finding out that your theories are in error now. One by one they are falling to the wayside by empirical evidence and not blind faith.

That's the pot calling the kettle black.  I didn't just blindly believe the theories, they were all verified on the bench by me doing many experiments.

Anyway, I am not up for a long debate here.  I just think it's useful for people to hear the 'other' side of the story so that they can get a more balanced perspective.

Ultimately, the Tesla bifilar coil is a coil with a different geometry than a standard coil, therefore it will respond in a slightly different way.  But it is still fundamentally a coil and will act like a standard coil without displaying any special or out of the ordinary attributes.

MileHigh

Quote from: jbignes5 on July 02, 2013, 07:36:22 AM

Ever heard of the Gegene? This is yet another proof that Tesla was in fact Correct.

Yes I have. No one that I have seen has proved that it can be run 'self looped' or that they have even measured the output power with any accuracy. Lighting bulbs of a nominal wattage does not count as measurement.

Quote from: MileHigh on July 02, 2013, 06:15:20 PM
Jbignes5:

Looking forward to seeing your video.

I don't know what you mean by "diametrical opposite polarities in series" but I am assuming that you are not referring to having the two coils act in self-cancellation mode because then you don't have an inductor any more.  To answer your question the increased capacity between the two coils that make up the device is not unusual to me.  That's a just function of geometry.




Answer: Geometry is only the half of the equation. there are 2 coils in parallel in a bifilar coil. Now follow the current flow in the coils. One coil goes inwards and the other goes outwards. One current goes left and one current goes right. That is what I mean. They have an attractive force as well twords each other. You do not understand this stuff on the most fundamental level.


You have to define what you mean by "unusual boosting."  Boosting of what?  Electronics can be very nuts and bolts and at times you have to really define what you mean.  So I can't respond to that statement right now.


Answer: The unusual boosting which arises in the bifilar pancake coil is an acceleration of real charges flowing in the coils. This results in boosting of the current and voltage potential.

With respect to your two quotes from the patent, you said. "Obviously you can not read and understand the concept."  In fact I clearly demonstrated that I understand the patent in my previous posting.  So what's so obvious?  What am I not understanding?  Again, you have to define what you are talking about.


Answer: You have no clue at all. You have demonstrated you know nothing about the true nature of the coils design or it's uses. This is evident by the Questions you posed above...

Talking about energy entering one end of a coil and exiting the other end does not make any sense.  Talking about the accelerating of the charges is appropriate for a particle accelerator but not for a coil.  There are no similar processes taking place.


Answer: Follow the current path an you will understand exactly what I was referring to. Really no similar processes taking place? Is there a voltage field or e-field and a magnetic field present in the coil? Did you read the ***reference material I provided to the accelerator process?***

You may believe that you are making a valid point here, and your terminology all makes sense.  In fact it's making very little sense and is very difficult to respond to.


Answer: How do I make sense but not make sense? You are the one confused here.

You are still really far "out there."  There is no such thing as a "perfect antenna for RF signals" and you can't just use the term "RF signals" without qualifying it in the context of the point you are trying to make.  Zero self induction only occurs at a single frequency but I am not getting the sense that you are aware of this.

Answer: Really no perfect antenna for RF? Whats an antenna that has 1 to 1 SWR then? This is the intention for the patent that Tesla got for the Bifilar coil. Zero self induction is not based on Frequency alone it is based on many variables.



Still more stuff that is too far "out there."  Tesla made no claims whatsoever about any RF transmitter/receiver attributes of his bifilar coil.  Nor did he claim that it outputs an increased magnetic field like I heard from people on another thread.  Your comments about the receiver capabilities of the coil make no real sense.


Answer: Again the experiments that JLN Labs is not credible to you? Or how about the credible replication of the genegen That Woopyjump and others have done? What is emitted from induction cookers is indeed an RF signal no matter what you believe. The transmitter that Tesla was designing was indeed RF in the beginning but then changes to an impulse system that transmitted with almost zero losses even over great distances. This impulses had to be converted into real current by a process of coils to convert the impulses into a sinusoidal current that could be used by traditional ac devices.

Like I said in my original posting, you, along with many others, are superimposing your wishes and fantasies about the Tesla bifilar coil on the reality of the coil and constructing a false narrative.  Many of the enthusiasts buy into it and that's not healthy.  Just treat the patent and any Tesla bifilar coils you build on the bench at face value, and do some tests and work with the real data that you see.

Answer: there is no fantasy here. In fact the only one fantasizing is you about doing any real work on this design. I always work with the data I collect. I don't interpret the data in the slightest and neither have others who have done this work for real like JLN Labs and even woopyjump. There is credible work out there and ignoring this work does nothing to your own unhealthy Thinking.

That's just more fodder for the imaginary constructed narrative.  There was no reason to edit the patent and the patent reviewer would almost certainly have been unable to edit it even if he wanted to.


Answer: the patent clerk did not edit it at the time it was done after Tesla's death and certainly not by a clerk. It was done by your bosses. You know the ones feeding you this line of bunk. Who have programmed you from day one to not listen to anything besides the tripe they protray as being Real physics. The cat is out of the bag so to speak. Every day more evidence piles up that current electronic theories are invalid when you go outside of the realm for which they were created for. Just try investigating the "Electric Universe"

That's the pot calling the kettle black.  I didn't just blindly believe the theories, they were all verified on the bench by me doing many experiments.

Answer: Experiments all backed by what? Where is the proof? Experiments only designed to show your proof I am betting.

Anyway, I am not up for a long debate here.  I just think it's useful for people to hear the 'other' side of the story so that they can get a more balanced perspective.

Answer: We are not here on a FREE ENERGY Forum to hear the status quo. We are looking for a way to live without cost for the most basic of needs. We don't want the programming you provide because I hasve already gone through that School of thought. And to tell you the truth it all fell apart after I started looking into the free energy field. Yes there is a lot to ignore but me and some others are sharring our experiments and not just chatter with no proof. That is why I provide links to just about everything I mention. I show how I came to those conclusions and even if I have it show my own experiments.

Ultimately, the Tesla bifilar coil is a coil with a different geometry than a standard coil, therefore it will respond in a slightly different way.  But it is still fundamentally a coil and will act like a standard coil without displaying any special or out of the ordinary attributes.

Answer: This is your belief. It is not based on anything credible or even based on provable experiments. My proofs are already in the open. Most I have not the chance to replicate because I have many projects going at the moment. One of which is an improved motor generator That Tesla designed. I also have Scoliosis of my spine which limits me on the work I can perform. But I will do it none the less. I just have to wait for Good days to do it. But I will be starting the Bifilar experiments because JLN provides credible data and even video of his findings. Woopyjump is also a very credible replicator and has also replicated the work of JLN Labs.

Jbignes5

Quote from: profitis on July 02, 2013, 09:33:26 AM
@jbignes5..chek out the simplest example of a clear 2nd law breach..take a concave mirror and point it near an object in your room.the spot at the focus point will heat up above the average ambient temp.a total smash of kelvin,s crap generalisation.

This is just as ignorant as Tesla's statement about Kelvin. You do not seem to understand that localised heating in the manner you describe is NOT a second law breach.

If you could show that effect occurring in an isothermal and adiabatically isolated environment , with no external energy supply then yes it would be so. However you conveniently neglect the supply of IR energy across the boundary in your analysis.

Quote from: LibreEnergia on July 02, 2013, 08:07:26 PM
Yes I have. No one that I have seen has proved that it can be run 'self looped' or that they have even measured the output power with any accuracy. Lighting bulbs of a nominal wattage does not count as measurement.

This is because others listen to you guys and then don't do the work for themselves. I on the other hand have done some work on the bifilar design and will be doing accurate measurements not just it looks bright type of things. My prelim results on this subject has come with data that I have not or will not let go in the wild yet. First this is only a step in a much bigger project and this will give me enough ammo to nail the final project.


The self looping was indeed done by TK. But as you said most data was not shared on the real output. But there is a very big problem in the measurements as shown by TK. Meters do not like this kind of energy. It's character is very different then normal energy used from the wall plug. It's measurement is very complicated and I believe I can create a device that will take into account those difficulties and measure the output. But there will be problems with doing this. One being credibility and getting it credible.


Anyways I believe JLN Labs has done credible work and he has attempted to measure the output in a credible manner. I think he has used water temp to measure that but I will have to check that before I'm willing to say it is valid or true by my own experiments.


Most of what JLN methods for the tests were credible accepted tests but the methods were loose at best. When you are measuring water temps you must use a sealed test environment and that is not what was done in the tests. They were open to the environment and this is not a valid test. But even with that being said 96-97% efficiency is phenomenal results. The efficiency of the cookers are probably also in question there since they used off the self induction cookers which would not be a good source for the signals emitted from the induction cookers.


Like I said these things need more work not bs law worship if we are to find free energy. It needs outside of the box thinking and more encouragement and it will be found.


As for this conversation I have derailed or gone off the subject and wish to give the reins back to the party who started it.


Sorry for my intrusion.

Quote from: LibreEnergia on July 02, 2013, 08:41:46 PM
This is just as ignorant as Tesla's statement about Kelvin. You do not seem to understand that localised heating in the manner you describe is NOT a second law breach.

If you could show that effect occurring in an isothermal and adiabatically isolated environment , with no external energy supply then yes it would be so. However you conveniently neglect the supply of IR energy across the boundary in your analysis.

One last thing. As long as you don't have to supply the ir who cares where it comes from. If it is there then it is usable. As long as you don't sup[ply it then it's an advantage and is free!


A solar panel is a free energy device. We don't pay for the sun but yet we can use it. Look at a solar water heater and that is concidered as being free energy converter. Any sterling engine is also free. It can be made with scrap parts and still produce energy.

Quote from: jbignes5 on July 02, 2013, 08:49:56 PM

One last thing. As long as you don't have to supply the ir who cares where it comes from. If it is there then it is usable. As long as you don't supply it then it's an advantage and is free!


A solar panel is a free energy device. We don't pay for the sun but yet we can use it. Look at a solar water heater and that is concidered as being free energy converter. Any sterling engine is also free. It can be made with scrap parts and still produce energy.

I'm not disputing that solar energy is essentially 'free' energy. Then again so is hydro. As far as I'm aware I don't pay directly to have the sun evaporate water and deposit it on higher ground.

However I do know that my electricity bill runs about 20 cents per kwh and that  the utility generated that at around 3 cents. Also the cost of solar panels and other equipment to do it myself will be around $25,000 dollars.

By most definitions that does not count as 'completely free', so I continue pay the bill for now.

As for a sterling generator, I don't have a convenient heat source on my property above ambient temperature so that is out too.

I could set up a one of profitses 2nd law violators (even though it is not) in the form of a mirror. By concentrating solar energy I could perhaps cook a chicken or two, but only in the summer. My chickens would get a free pass in the winter though due cloudy weather, and standing out in the drizzle while it warms slowly doesn't appeal.

I'd like to find real free energy as much as the next person. However, no amount of wishful thinking about the nature of reality is going make that happen any faster.

Quote from: MileHigh on July 02, 2013, 01:39:41 PM
Jbignes5:

On another thread we looked at the "series" bifilar coil patent and found noting special.  I noticed your other comments about the Tesla bifilar coil and they reflect a belief system rather than fact.

As Mark said, LibreEnergia is correct on the thermodynamics stuff.  On the electronics stuff your belief system is just that, a belief system.  You can't actually do bench experiments to confirm your statements.

Going back to the bifilar coil for electromagnets and Tesla's patent, all that the patent says is that you can make a self-resonatng coil with interwoven windings of a single conductor such that the interwoven windings create a higher voltage gradient between adjacent loops of the coil.  Using the term "bifilar" is actually a misnomer, because the coil consists of a single wire only.

Using the interwoven winding technique will give you a coil with marginally different characteristics from a similar coil that is conventionally wound, and that's about it.  The main characteristic that the two coils will share is their inductance, and that will be approximately the same.  The capacitive effects associated with the interweaving are minuscule as compared to the inductive effects.

The patent just describes the coil and it's properties, it does not mention a single practical application for the coil.  I believe that what has happened is that over enthusiasm with respect to the Tesla bifilar coil for electromagnets has resulted in a lot of wishful thinking about what you can do with it that has no basis in fact.

MileHigh

"On another thread we looked at the "series" bifilar coil patent and found noting special."

Actually, nothing special 'has been shown yet'.   ;)   That thread is not closed yet. ;) ;)



"Using the term "bifilar" is actually a misnomer, because the coil consists of a single wire only."

Well initially they are in fact not 1 wire. 'We' wind then with 2 wires(bi = 2) then if we decide to connect them in series then they can be considered 1 conductor from beginning to end.  ;) You cant wind a multi layer bifi coil winding 1 wire at a time. So the name bifilar describes the way of winding the coil. Not a big deal really. But when someone says 'bifi' or 'bifilar' around here, most know what we are talking about I think we can both agree. ;)   
If everyone would rather not call it a bifilar coil, we could call them "2 wires wound together and then connected in series coils" ???   Bifi is fine by me. ;) Short and to the point.


"Using the interwoven winding technique will give you a coil with marginally different characteristics from a similar coil that is conventionally wound, and that's about it."

This is not true. We went over this, in the other thread.
Say we wind 2 coils. Both are 2 turns. One might say well, ok, 2 normal coils. But they are both bifi and each turn will have 50% of the input voltage across each turn, of which is the definition and point of the coils described in Tesla's pat.

Now we have a normal 10 turn coil and a 10 turn (total turns) bifi coil. Like you said, one basic difference if the 'bifi' is the amount of voltage between adjacent turns between the 2 coils. Well here is that difference....

We apply 10v across each coil for a numbers example. The regular coil will have 1v difference between adjacent windings, but the 'bifi' has 5v between adjacent windings.
What ever the capacitance is between each turn, same for both coils, there is a 500% difference in voltage between adjacent turns in the bifi vs the regular coil. I dont think this is a marginal difference between the 2 coils. I believe it is a 'very' noticeable difference, if one looks at the characteristics in the proper manor. Will get to that later.

500% 'difference' in voltage between adjacent turns. Now lets just go all the way and look at 2 coils of 4000 total turns, 1 regular and one bifi, wound with the same size wire obviously.

We will use just 10v again. Any voltage will produce the same difference in results.

The regular coil will have .0025v between adjacent turns and the bifi will have 5v between adjacent turns.  Thats a 2000% difference, isnt it? ;) So its hard for me to accept someone using the word 'marginal' to describe those differences. The amount of energy stored in 'the capacitance' is quite large in the bifi compared to the regular coil no matter the value of the capacitance between adjacent turns, of which both coils are equal. But that voltage difference makes the energy stored in that bifi coils capacitance significantly higher than the regular coil.

Lets consider that as we increase the turns, we also increase the resistance. Well Lasersabers EZ motor is near 20kohm with all 12 coils in series. If there is sooo much loss due to resistances, why does his motor perform so well at 1ua from a 1000uf cap for up to an hour? And its has some actual torque. More on that later in that thread. ;)

He has over 1000ft of 42awg wire on each bobbin. I can only guess how many turns but I venture to suggest its near 10 to 13 turns average per foot on those tiny bobbins, so nearly 10,000 turns or more each. So if the coils were bifi, 2 separate wires wound together ;) , then we take 1 of those separate wires from all 12 coils and put just those in series, and then we do the same with the other wire of each coil, then we put those 2 series windings in series finally, what ever voltage is applied across those 12 coils, there will be 1/2 of the input voltage between adjacent turns throughout.

So approximately 120,000 turns, bifi or regular.  Laser has put up to near 100v to the input with smaller value caps(10uf), as the caps could take that voltage. So we will use 100v in the example.

The regular windings of Lasers EZ motor would have about .00083v between adjacent turns but the bifi wound motor would have 50v between every adjacent turn.

And what is the percent difference between the 2 adjacent voltages??? About 60,000%  :o :o :o ;)

This is nowhere in the vicinity of marginal. Its monsterous!!  No???  ;D

So the more turns, the more it matters, the difference between a regular coil and a 'bifi' coil. One cannot deny this. And with wires and numbers like these, we are not talking radio freq as operating frequencies anymore.  ;) We are in the range of pulse motors even with reeds as switching.

Just got 50,000 ft of 42awg last week. ;) 35bucks shipped in 3days. No great expense. ;)




" The capacitive effects associated with the interweaving are minuscule as compared to the inductive effects."

60,000% is not minuscule.  ;) The capacitance of a regular coil becomes more and more insignificant as the number of turns increase. The 'bifi' remains the same no mater the number of turns. So its not that the bifi has more capacitance between turns than compared to a regular coil, its the fact that the regular coils capacitance effects are reduced with an increased number of turns. These are facts and not just wishful thinking. ;)




"The patent just describes the coil and it's properties, it does not mention a single practical application for the coil."

But it does state that the more turns the better compared to a regular coil. This leaves me with the impression that it is not just related to high freq applications. ;) The advantages will be seen soon enough. ;)




"I believe that what has happened is that over enthusiasm with respect to the Tesla bifilar coil for electromagnets has resulted in a lot of wishful thinking about what you can do with it that has no basis in fact."

Well, I believe that if people are just experimenting with 10's , 100's or even 1000 turns bifi, the advantages are not large enough to be realized, and yes, the freq of operation is probably way beyond using reed switching. ;)

Mags

Jbignes5:

QuoteAnswer: Geometry is only the half of the equation. there are 2 coils in parallel in a bifilar coil. Now follow the current flow in the coils. One coil goes inwards and the other goes outwards. One current goes left and one current goes right. That is what I mean. They have an attractive force as well twords each other. You do not understand this stuff on the most fundamental level.

In the Tesla patent the two coils (or call them half-coils if you want) are in series.  If you mean "in parallel" in the sense that they are interwoven with each other and physically "in parallel" then okay.

The fact that one current goes left and the other coil goes right is irrelevant.  You seem to be implying that this is somehow significant.  Why is that?  Precisely what do you mean?  Any possible mechanical forces in the mechanically static form of a coil don't mean anything.  If you think it means something please explain.

QuoteAnswer: The unusual boosting which arises in the bifilar pancake coil is an acceleration of real charges flowing in the coils. This results in boosting of the current and voltage potential.

That's a pretty vague answer.  The current will slowly increase as you energize a coil as the amount of stored energy increases.  This will be the same process in a regular coil or in a series bifilar coil (SBC).  There will be no boosting of anything and you can check this on the bench if you want.  (We decided on the term "SBC" on the other thread for the Tsela bifilar coil for electromagnets so I will use it from now on.)

For what it's worth, the whole "acceleration of charges" angle is part of the created narrative.  It's not terminology that's associated with coils.  When you think coil you should almost always think in terms of current flow.

QuoteAnswer: You have no clue at all. You have demonstrated you know nothing about the true nature of the coils design or it's uses. This is evident by the Questions you posed above...

That's a tough comment and I can respond like this.  Sometimes even the simplest circuit is hard to understand when it comes to coils and the myths that surround them.  I could probably describe a ridiculously simple circuit and you might not be able to answer the simple question related to it.  It might make you question about how much you yourself know and have you thinking about doing more research.

I asked in the other thread for anybody to suggest a use or uses for the SBC coil and nobody could suggest one.  It's very possible that it was a patent that did not bear fruit.

QuoteAnswer: Follow the current path an you will understand exactly what I was referring to. Really no similar processes taking place? Is there a voltage field or e-field and a magnetic field present in the coil? Did you read the ***reference material I provided to the accelerator process?***

Seriously, talking about energy entering one end of a coil and exiting the other end does not make any sense.

There is a voltage field in the coil, can you tell me what form it takes and where it is located?  Everybody knows about the magnetic filed.  We are hinting at the basic dynamics about how a coil works.  If you are going to work with coils the more you know the better off you are.

QuoteYou may believe that you are making a valid point here, and your terminology all makes sense.  In fact it's making very little sense and is very difficult to respond to.

QuoteAnswer: How do I make sense but not make sense? You are the one confused here.

I suggest that you reread my comment above.

Quotenswer: Again the experiments that JLN Labs is not credible to you? Or how about the credible replication of the genegen That Woopyjump and others have done? What is emitted from induction cookers is indeed an RF signal no matter what you believe. The transmitter that Tesla was designing was indeed RF in the beginning but then changes to an impulse system that transmitted with almost zero losses even over great distances. This impulses had to be converted into real current by a process of coils to convert the impulses into a sinusoidal current that could be used by traditional ac devices.

I am not too bullish on JLN.  The fact that you are referencing Woopyjump says a lot.  Woopy is a great person and an enthusiastic experimenter, but this is just a hobby for fun for him.  You in all honesty should not be citing any of Woopy's experiments as a source of hard data.  You should be serious enough to not classify Woopy as a reliable source of experimental data.  No disrespect to Woopy at all.

I never said anything about induction cookers.  Do they use SBCs or just ordinary pancake coils?  Notice you are making a connection between SBCs and induction cookers and then assuming that SBCs are great antennas.  You are back to constructing the narrative again.  It just doesn't work like that and it's way more complicated than that.

QuoteAnswer: there is no fantasy here. In fact the only one fantasizing is you about doing any real work on this design. I always work with the data I collect. I don't interpret the data in the slightest and neither have others who have done this work for real like JLN Labs and even woopyjump. There is credible work out there and ignoring this work does nothing to your own
unhealthy Thinking.

I would be pleased to have a look at your experimental clips when you put them up and take it from there.  If you are going to do clips where you make claims about SBCs then you will need to have a similar regular coil for comparison tests.  You are going to be surprised when you see very similar or nearly identical performance from both of them for some standard tests.  I suppose that you could say that "credible work" is in the eye of the beholder.  The more information that you have to work with the more you can evaluate clips for their content.

MileHigh

@libre,the walls of the isothermal thought-box and evrything in it are the emitters and receivers of the ambient infrared,thers no need to do the experiment as it even works in thought...

Quote from: profitis on July 02, 2013, 11:29:01 PM
@libre,the walls of the isothermal thought-box and evrything in it are the emitters and receivers of the ambient infrared,thers no need to do the experiment as it even works in thought...

Except you omit to mention such an experiment  even in thought could only work if inside the box was NOT a true isothermal environment. In your case the emitters will cool, the receivers will heat, but overall the entropy of the box will increase.

This means the heat energy will ON AVERAGE become more dispersed throughout the box even though a part of it is locally heating.

If the environment is also adiabatic, then over time that energy will be come equally dispersed throughout it and even the localised heating will stop. 

One of the logical conclusions of that is a machine such as the subject of this thread (or in fact any device) cannot cause itself to 'self run' . At best it will have an efficiency less than one and at best determined by the difference in temperature between the hot and cold reservoir of heat.

One of the logical conclusions of that is a machine such as the subject of this thread (or in fact any device) cannot cause itself to 'self run' > Not correct.  CO2 absorption fridge turbine puts out more wattage than needed for heating itself. 456KW in 720KW out.

     In most boiler systems you create a column of steam creating a conductive medium.  Then the boiler agitates the molecules in the boiler which randomly strike the outlet of the boiler and transfer this agitation to the steam column.  The column is a conduit very much like a piece of wire.   The radiator at the end of the column then transfers some of the agitation of the boiler molecules to agitation of the water molecules in our bodies.  In an electrical system we have the column prepared for us.   We create agitation of the free electrons on the boiler end to cause agitation of electrons at the radiator end.  This is how one wire transfer of energy by using hi-voltage induction coils works.  The pressure of the column is increased to allow for the conduit to be decreased in mass to energy transfer capacity.   A steam column at 2000 degrees can be much smaller than one at 300 degrees to transfer the same amount of BTU'S.  A wire at 30,000volts can transfer more watts per unit mass than the same wire at 10volts,    You will note there is no flow in this system of the medium itself.  No electrons are entering the wire at point A and exiting at point B.  There is however transfer of energy from the electron agitator to the electrons in the radiator.   The electron kinetic energy of the boiler  (Earth) is transferred to electron energy in the radiator (terminal) by use of a conductor.

Quote from: DaS Energy on July 03, 2013, 01:03:52 AM
One of the logical conclusions of that is a machine such as the subject of this thread (or in fact any device) cannot cause itself to 'self run' > Not correct.  CO2 absorption fridge turbine puts out more wattage than needed for heating itself. 456KW in 720KW out.

   This is a heat engine.   It is dependent only on the energy density of the boiler compared to the energy density of the condensor.
As long as the energy density of the boiler is greater than the energy density of the condensor it will run. 
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/mst/features/2013/130416-tapping-into-the-oceans-power.html (http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/mst/features/2013/130416-tapping-into-the-oceans-power.html)

Correct! Pressure induction of movement.
CO2 natural liquid  refrigerant only itself in boiler. Heated low or high pressure force against a blockade, taking so much energy to move aside heat is lost causing a pressure drop. So inducing movement. The pursuit of atmospheric cold is better spent at atmospheric hot.

Very nice discussion ! ;)  I have invention in this area (bifilar coil) , I have been keeping it in my drawer for 3 years now, can't finish the oscillator part to make it work. Oh, silly boy....
Just a digresion  ;D , I see you are starting to grasp the idea....

@libre..true but you forgot to spot(deliberately?) that the emitters in the box are receiving as much as they are emitting.thats why its called isothermal,no heat can escape our box or enter our box thus we do in fact have a kelvin breach and spontaneous temperature gradient created at the focal point of the mirror with zero expense of energy on our part.the heat rays are the same energy as the heat in other words.heat will flow continuously from the rest of the box into the focal point and back into the box.no heat or heat rays can escape our box.

@libre,you cant seperate a 25degree celcius object from its heat rays, basicly a conundrum here.

@libre..lets take a giant concave mirror and put it next to the sun,i would say that the entropy of the sun has spontaneously decreased with zero expenditure of energy.

Quote from: profitis on July 03, 2013, 12:12:59 PM
@libre..lets take a giant concave mirror and put it next to the sun,i would say that the entropy of the sun has spontaneously decreased with zero expenditure of energy.

Maybe you can even extend this ... to the device with two metal plates separated by good insulator like a vacuum chamber with styrofoam insulation. One plate heated by concave mirror while the other are below the insulation. That would be substancial gradient with low energy used only to construct device...bu that seems still weak example to convince somebody ;-)

@forest,the number of arrangements are almost infinite,the bottom line is a mirror is in fact a maxwell demon,in the dark,in the light,in a isothermal box,outside a isothermal box,evrywhere,anywhere.it can pump heat uphill for no expense.thats what makes it different from most heat pumps.

Magluvin:

Quote"Using the interwoven winding technique will give you a coil with marginally different characteristics from a similar coil that is conventionally wound, and that's about it."

This is not true. We went over this, in the other thread.
Say we wind 2 coils. Both are 2 turns. One might say well, ok, 2 normal coils. But they are both bifi and each turn will have 50% of the input voltage across each turn, of which is the definition and point of the coils described in Tesla's pat.

Yes we covered this on the other thread.  If you start with a minuscule capacitance in a regular coil and then do an equivalent bifilar coil with more capacitance and inter-winding voltage potential, chances are the larger capacitance and associated energy is still going to be minuscule in comparison to the inductance.  Therefore unless you are working at higher frequencies the inductance will dominate and the coil will behave like an ordinary coil.  Adding more turns to get more capacitance won't get you anything because the inductance will increase much faster than the capacitance.  And of course the capacitance is transient and only exists at higher frequencies.  We can expect that in pulse motor applications the behaviour will be essentially identical, which you also stated.

So that's what this two-terminal electrical device looks like.  You can do a sine wave frequency sweep on it and measure the amplitude and phase response of it if you set up something like a parallel LC filter tester circuit.  If you build one and get a lower resonant frequency, then what?  What is your objective with the hypothetical build?  This is of course related to the argument about the practical applications for this device.  If you want to build one just for the sake of building one, well then good luck.

QuoteWhat ever the capacitance is between each turn, same for both coils, there is a 500% difference in voltage between adjacent turns in the bifi vs the regular coil. I dont think this is a marginal difference between the 2 coils. I believe it is a 'very' noticeable difference, if one looks at the characteristics in the proper manor. Will get to that later.

That sounds like you could do some good comparative tests between the two types of coils.  How much difference between the two and under what kinds of test situations?  You might find real differences with a higher frequency sweep.  So you get a resonant frequency in the SBC coil that is lower than the regular coil suggesting higher internal capacitance.  Of course other people have done this and shared their results confirming this.  Okay, that's fine and dandy but we were expecting that, right?  We know the formula for calculating the resonant frequency or an LC resonator.  So did we learn anything new here?  I am not so sure that we did.

QuoteBut it does state that the more turns the better compared to a regular coil.

Better for what?

QuoteThe advantages will be seen soon enough.

What advantages specifically are you talking about or perhaps speculating on?

See I am just playing Devil's Advocate here.  I encourage people to experiment, but much better to experiment with a plan of attack or to test a hypothesis.

Jbignes5 is convinced and wants you to believe that the Tesla SBC is the greatest thing since sliced bread and it has a myriad of wonderful applications that it is perfectly suited for.  He also suggests that you might be able to get over unity from it.  Keep in mind that he is not comfortable with talking about electronics and you should factor that in.

I am saying it's possible that the SBC was designed by Tesla for lab experiments because he could not source high-voltage capacitors because they didn't exist at the time.  He may have wanted to use it as a resonator for temporary storage or to resonate and radiate the stored energy as EM waves.  He may have just wanted it to experiment with basic AC circuits and used it as a filter in a circuit.  The moment that HV capacitors became available he may have never thought about the SBC again.  I am just speculating.

MileHigh

Quote from: MileHigh on July 03, 2013, 07:21:09 PM
Magluvin:

Yes we covered this on the other thread.  If you start with a minuscule capacitance in a regular coil and then do an equivalent bifilar coil with more capacitance and inter-winding voltage potential, chances are the larger capacitance and associated energy is still going to be minuscule in comparison to the inductance.  Therefore unless you are working at higher frequencies the inductance will dominate and the coil will behave like an ordinary coil.  Adding more turns to get more capacitance won't get you anything because the inductance will increase much faster than the capacitance.  And of course the capacitance is transient and only exists at higher frequencies.  We can expect that in pulse motor applications the behaviour will be essentially identical, which you also stated.

So that's what this two-terminal electrical device looks like.  You can do a sine wave frequency sweep on it and measure the amplitude and phase response of it if you set up something like a parallel LC filter tester circuit.  If you build one and get a lower resonant frequency, then what?  What is your objective with the hypothetical build?  This is of course related to the argument about the practical applications for this device.  If you want to build one just for the sake of building one, well then good luck.

That sounds like you could do some good comparative tests between the two types of coils.  How much difference between the two and under what kinds of test situations?  You might find real differences with a higher frequency sweep.  So you get a resonant frequency in the SBC coil that is lower than the regular coil suggesting higher internal capacitance.  Of course other people have done this and shared their results confirming this.  Okay, that's fine and dandy but we were expecting that, right?  We know the formula for calculating the resonant frequency or an LC resonator.  So did we learn anything new here?  I am not so sure that we did.

Better for what?

What advantages specifically are you talking about or perhaps speculating on?

See I am just playing Devil's Advocate here.  I encourage people to experiment, but much better to experiment with a plan of attack or to test a hypothesis.

Jbignes5 is convinced and wants you to believe that the Tesla SBC is the greatest thing since sliced bread and it has a myriad of wonderful applications that it is perfectly suited for.  He also suggests that you might be able to get over unity from it.  Keep in mind that he is not comfortable with talking about electronics and you should factor that in.

I am saying it's possible that the SBC was designed by Tesla for lab experiments because he could not source high-voltage capacitors because they didn't exist at the time.  He may have wanted to use it as a resonator for temporary storage or to resonate and radiate the stored energy as EM waves.  He may have just wanted it to experiment with basic AC circuits and used it as a filter in a circuit.  The moment that HV capacitors became available he may have never thought about the SBC again.  I am just speculating.

MileHigh

"Yes we covered this on the other thread.  If you start with a minuscule capacitance in a regular coil and then do an equivalent bifilar coil with more capacitance and inter-winding voltage potential, chances are the larger capacitance and associated energy is still going to be minuscule in comparison to the inductance."

One of the problems with the capacitance between adjacent windings of a normal coil is that from one measuring point to the other, there is only a very short piece of wire, 1 turn of the winding, and it is nearly impossible to get any potential difference in reference to the coils input between those two measuring points. The bifi doesnt have that problem as every other turn is half a coil away electrically from the next. This is how the potential difference between turns can have half of the inputs voltage potential between turns, substantially increasing the capacitive value of the coil.

In my previous post that you are quoting from here, you dont seem to be responding to what is said about the difference between bifi and regular wound coils when the number of turns is increased. But anyways...

Have you ever charged a 1uf cap to 1v and discharged it to some metallic item and taken notice how much spark or arcing that would occur?  Then charge that 1uf cap to 250v DC and discharge it. Is the spark any larger or even any louder? Is there more energy in the 250v charge than there is in the 1v charge? There is a big difference in my experience. The 1v 'snap' and my cat wont even turn an ear. But the 250v shmack might get her 6 inches off the floor. lol  Its true.  ;)

The difference between the 2 voltages is 2500%.  And the parts of my post you neglected to reply on explain percent levels up to 60,000% difference. Not beating on you here but I think those are important and very significant numbers while we are having this conversation.



"How much difference between the two and under what kinds of test situations?  You might find real differences with a higher frequency sweep."

Well, not if Im in the realm of near 100,000 turns of 42awg wire and more than 1 uf of capacitance. Try this. Calculate the value of capacitor needed across a 60 Henry coil that would bring the LC into resonance at 60hz.  Now thats a tiny, seemingly insignificant value of capacitance for such freq. In the low nanofarad range. Near 100nf if I remember correctly. So in 'reality' , there is nothing high freq about 60hz, is there? Now replace that 100nf cap with a 1uf cap. What would our operating freq be then? Pretty much subsonic.  So maybe we can ditch the fact that we are only limited to high freq operation, as long as we have large enough bifi inductance in our motors. ;D



"That sounds like you could do some good comparative tests between the two types of coils.  How much difference between the two and under what kinds of test situations?  You might find real differences with a higher frequency sweep."

Again, my aim is to get the freq operation of the bifi very low. We are not restricted to high freq operation as you suggest. ;)



"We know the formula for calculating the resonant frequency or an LC resonator.  So did we learn anything new here?  I am not so sure that we did."

Yes we do and yes we did.  A 60 henry coil with a 100nf cap can ring near 60hz. ;)



"Better for what?"

Better for reducing self inductance of the coil during the pulse of the motor coil. The way I see it, if we want to use high inductance coils in our pulse motors, more than likely the rise time of the coil is going to be slow, limiting the max potential of its field strength within the time allotment of on time of the switch. Depending on the speed of the motor and switching of course. So by 'neutralizing' the self inductance of a very high inductance coil, we eliminate rise time in the coil. The coil will produce max field much faster than a regular coil, giving a sharper pulse than a normal coil of similar inductance and be able to shorten the on time of the switch being we dont have to wait for the field to build like a normal coil.

Having the capacitance distributed throughout the coil with much higher potential levels between turns can draw in current through the coil, especially if the capacitance is between turns that are not physically connected electrically just 1 turn away. I believe a normal coil has an inrush of current in relation to its very tiny capacitance's in series from one end of the coil to the other. But it is only as much as the potential value of the capacitance, of which is smaller and smaller the more turns it has.

Like a cap with 2 plates 1 inch away from each other. Then slide 10 thin evenly spaced plates, 1 inch between them between the 2 cap plates, all plates are spaced 1 inch, none of the plates are in physical contact with each other. First we measure the capacitance between the 2 plates 1 inch apart and then the 12 plates each 1 inch apart. The 2 plates at 1 inch will have much more capacity than the 2 plates with 10 plates between them. Mostly the capacitance is reduced because of the additional space between the caps outer plates that have the connections to the outer world. Its the same as putting them in series but the middle plates dont have wires or any physical connections. But if we remove those lone 10 plates, and the 2 outer plates are still as many inches apart, we still have near the same capacitance with the 10 plates or not, depending on the total thickness of the plates as they reduce the distance electrically/electrostatic between the 2 outer plates. If they are very thin, then not much difference.
This is the arrangement of the capacitance in a normal coil. The further away the ends of the coil the less total capacitance. But in a bifi the first turn of one end of the coil is interlaced with a winding that is 1/2 the total coils length from the other end of the coil. And so is every other turn throughout the coil as a whole. Its not magic. Its just what it is.

But the bifi is more similar to every other of the 12 plates being connected together and the others in between connected together. So there 'is' more capacitance in a bifi than a normal coil. And the difference is enhanced the more turns you have mostly because the capacitance in a normal coil is reduced the more turns you have.



"I am saying it's possible that the SBC was designed by Tesla for lab experiments because he could not source high-voltage capacitors because they didn't exist at the time."

Umm, you better read that pat again. We discussed this in the other thread and it wasnt that the caps didnt exist, heck he had patents on them. It was because they were too 'bulky' and 'expensive'. Tesla has many writings and drawings about and the use of capacitors before and around that time. Thats for certain. ;)   This is not to say that there may be other uses for these coils, just because he didnt mention other ideas for it in the patent.
Some companies patent individual parts of an invention without having to describe the whole invention initially or at all, there by hiding the idea of the invention while protecting the important building blocks of the whole. Not to say that this was Teslas intention, but it is a possibility. The guy was wicked smart.



"The moment that HV capacitors became available he may have never thought about the SBC again.  I am just speculating."

Its possible. But it is not fact yet, as you state.  ;)



Here is something to think about. If we have an LC and we apply a voltage across its ends, what would happen immediately? The cap would charge, and fast. So if you think a bifi coil is the same as just a coil with a cap across it, then you must believe that the capacitance in the bifi would do the same, correct?  And where is that capacitor in the bifi coil?  Its in the coil!!  ;) With the bifi we have just neutralized the self inductance of the coil and current would flow instantly. ;D And what happens when that bifi capacitance is fully charged? Current is flowing through the coil a full bore. No lag, no waiting. But the normal LC;s coil will lag current flow in reference to the caps charge intake from the source.  So the bifi is not exactly the same as an LC, whether it rings at the same freq as the LC or not. There are other differences. ;)




Mags

Magluvin:

QuoteThe difference between the 2 voltages is 2500%.  And the parts of my post you neglected to reply on explain percent levels up to 60,000% difference. Not beating on you here but I think those are important and very significant numbers while we are having this conversation.

I read all of your comments I just responded in a generic way at the beginning of the posting.  If you try to measure the capacitive energy in the SBC coil it will be interesting.

QuoteSo in 'reality' , there is nothing high freq about 60hz, is there? Now replace that 100nf cap with a 1uf cap. What would our operating freq be then? Pretty much subsonic.  So maybe we can ditch the fact that we are only limited to high freq operation, as long as we have large enough bifi inductance in our motors.

It may be possible, but I seem to recall various testers getting their coils to self-resonate in the hundreds of kilohertz to megahertz range.  I don't know how big you want to go but it sounds to me like 60 Henries is one big mother of a coil.

If you can get low frequency resonance, what do you want to do with that coil?

QuoteThe way I see it, if we want to use high inductance coils in our pulse motors, more than likely the rise time of the coil is going to be slow, limiting the max potential of its field strength within the time allotment of on time of the switch. Depending on the speed of the motor and switching of course.

You are actually suggesting a good experiment.  Test different drive coil configurations where you vary the inductance.  Is there a 'sweet spot' for the drive coil inductance?

QuoteSo by 'neutralizing' the self inductance of a very high inductance coil, we eliminate rise time in the coil. The coil will produce max field much faster than a regular coil, giving a sharper pulse than a normal coil of similar inductance and be able to shorten the on time of the switch being we dont have to wait for the field to build like a normal coil.

Another issue worth revisiting.  You are not visualizing this properly.  The 'neutralizing of the self inductance' relates to the coil acting as a band pass filter for an AC signal.  At the resonance frequency the complex impedance will drop to zero and you will be left with just the wire resistance.  When you talk about rise time in the coil this is for the coil acting in a pulse circuit, a different animal.  You will have to wait for the field to build in an SBC coil the same as in a normal coil as a the voltage starts to overcome the inductance and gets it to move.  We know that the SBC coil and the same-sized normal coil have approximately the same inductance, and thee is no short-cut like you believe.  You are mixing apples and oranges.  Check it out for yourself on the bench.

QuoteHaving the capacitance distributed throughout the coil with much higher potential levels between turns can draw in current through the coil, especially if the capacitance is between turns that are not physically connected electrically just 1 turn away. I believe a normal coil has an inrush of current in relation to its very tiny capacitance's in series from one end of the coil to the other.

That sounds reasonable to me.  It's hard to know exactly what the dynamics are for the SBC coil and capacitive charge distribution in the coil and how the current might flow, etc.  It may be next to impossible to measure because any current associated with charging the inter-loop capacitance may be superimposed on the main current flow as the inductor energizes.  You sound like you want to do the investigation and it should be fun.  I think looking for differences between a standard coil and an SBC coil, same dimensions, same wire and turns, would be your best bet at detecting something of note.  I don't think you have a DSO but you might have a USB scope?  That would come in handy.

Just to look at this one more time:

QuoteHere is something to think about. If we have an LC and we apply a voltage across its ends, what would happen immediately? The cap would charge, and fast. So if you think a bifi coil is the same as just a coil with a cap across it, then you must believe that the capacitance in the bifi would do the same, correct?  And where is that capacitor in the bifi coil?  Its in the coil!!  (https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2FSmileys%2Fdefault%2Fwink.gif&hash=0d9aacf9391b7fda4adbf7cd091f687bfd283341) With the bifi we have just neutralized the self inductance of the coil and current would flow instantly.

Here is the problem in a nutshell:  Even though the capacitance is there, the current still has to corkscrew though the coil.  So on its way to charge the inter-loop capacitance the current still has to overcome the inductance and push it along.  The dynamics of it are not trivial.

Here is something that may be applicable to visualize what is going on.  You take the analogy of inductance as the massless spring and capacitance as the mass.   So an LC resonator is like a massless spring affixed to a concrete wall on one end and to the oscillating mass on the other end.  Imagine that setup about pallet-sized with a big 100-turn mechanical spring made out of thin Berryllium and a 10 kilogram mass on a very low friction surface oscillating back and forth at about 5 Hz. Let's assume that the spring is not too stiff hence the low oscillation frequency.

We know pure inductance is represented by a massless spring.  But you have a real-world spring you know it's made of a loop of wire with windings that have mass.  Mass is capacitance, and the SBC coil has inter-loop capacitance.

So, it's very possible that a real-world spring with mass would be a decent model for how an SBC coil behaves.  So imagine kicking that big spring and watching it vibrate and wiggle in a kind of random and unstable way until it rings down completely and stops moving.  Even think of doing something similar as a kid with a Slinky, where you pull the slinky tight and then pluck it to send waves bouncing back and forth through the loops.  It's possible that the SBC coil will behave like that in the electrical domain.  You never know...

MileHigh

      If an electron leaves an atom isn't the atom cooler? 

Is an atom hot?

depends

Attached is a setup for testing the "Energy from using environment temperature to generate power".

I have NOT tested this myself but I see no reason that it could not be tested. Well, one is that you
need to carefully monitor the heat at the first (leftmost) junction of the two Peltier elements. This
junction must not exceed the maximum temperature that the devices can tolerate. You will need
to use a variable power supply for the input side of the two (left and right) Peltier elements, and
turn down the voltage of the power supply if this heat junction gets too hot.

The main question is: Will the COP of the heat transfer of the Peltier elements be enough to
compensate for the poor efficiencies of the elements them self? In sort, will the output from
the middle element be larger than the input to the two outer elements?

GL.

Quote from: profitis on July 03, 2013, 01:38:09 PM
@forest,the number of arrangements are almost infinite,the bottom line is a mirror is in fact a maxwell demon,in the dark,in the light,in a isothermal box,outside a isothermal box,evrywhere,anywhere.it can pump heat uphill for no expense.thats what makes it different from most heat pumps.

No, A mirror is not a Maxwell Demon. A Maxwell demon is able to (if such a thing existed) sort particles based on their energy state, thus creating and maintaining a temperature gradient where none existed before.  A mirror doesn't do that. It simply deflects radiant energy.

A mirror or lens cannot create a temperature that is hotter than the source temperature. The act of focusing radiation energy  does not decrease entropy overall.

@libre..wrong.a mirror the size of the sun aimed at the sun would increase its temperature,thus making it hotter than the source,thus decreasing its entropy spontaneously,thus working against the 2nd law.a maxwell demon does not have to be active to sort energy states.it can be totally passive and still do this.

Quote from: profitis on July 04, 2013, 08:57:21 PM
@libre..wrong.a mirror the size of the sun aimed at the sun would increase its temperature,thus making it hotter than the source,thus decreasing its entropy spontaneously,thus working against the 2nd law.a maxwell demon does not have to be active to sort energy states.it can be totally passive and still do this.

No it wouldn't. The temperature of the sun would not increase. The temperature would remain the same. There are lots of references out on the web describing this and similar thought experiments that explain why this is so. I'll leave you to investigate them.

Quote from: DaS Energy on July 04, 2013, 10:25:51 AM
Is an atom hot?

   Apparently atoms have mass.  And since mass and energy are equivalent and heat appears to be a form of energy I would think that atoms are hot.  So an atom loses mass  when it loses an electron and gets colder.  How much?  Weigh a proton.  Then weigh monatomic hydrogen.   The proton electron combination will weigh more.  Now plug the electron weight into mass equivalency and convert the energy into british thermal units.   I don't think the guys that made up the laws of thermal dynamics were doing the best they could using this thing called heat.  I thought Einstein cleared this whole matter up a number of years ago.

You are way off, the heat/temperature measurement comes from the random vibrating of the molecules.

@libre..oh and i forgot,the temperature of a reflected surface can get hotter than the source.if i send 1000therms from a source at 3kelvin onto a  hotspot at 300kelvin then the hotspot bounces back only 10therms into the universe.

  and the molecules are made of atoms

Quote from: profitis on July 04, 2013, 10:31:53 PM
@libre..oh and i forgot,the temperature of a reflected surface can get hotter than the source.if i send 1000therms from a source at 3kelvin onto a  hotspot at 300kelvin then the hotspot bounces back only 10therms into the universe.

You are confusing temperature with heat. It's no wonder that with such an inadequate grasp of the fundamentals that you continue to come to erroneous conclusions regarding the 2nd Law.

I can hear the sounds of one hand clapping echoing back and forth across the gap, fading off into the distance.  When you can't figure things out or you made a mistake then RUN!! RUN!! RUN!!  lol

Quote from: MileHigh on July 04, 2013, 02:40:54 AM

....
Another issue worth revisiting.  You are not visualizing this properly.  The 'neutralizing of the self inductance' relates to the coil acting as a band pass filter for an AC signal.  At the resonance frequency the complex impedance will drop to zero and you will be left with just the wire resistance. 
....

Hi MileHigh,

In the other thread http://www.overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/msg360645/#msg360645 (http://www.overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/msg360645/#msg360645) I mentioned that the Tesla SBC must have several series and parallel resonant frequencies due to the distributed reactances (it is a kind of transmission line) so the complex impedance (while cancels) can be equal to the wire resistance only IF the AC input current is at a series resonant frequency. In case the AC input current matches a parallel resonant frequency, the complex impedance also cancels but the real impedance must be (Q*XL) as usual for a parallel LC tank and this real impedance must be higher than the wire resistance unless the loaded Q equals 1 and the inductive reactance value is less than the wire resistance.

Gyula

Hello Sparks. You last reply well received. Not have read on Lockhead Martin. We be publishing since 2002. -10*C to +10*C oceanics needs no surface structure. Pressure variant need only need be tipping force. Liquid/Gas pressure commence at boiler pump. It turned by turbine taking force from the boiler. There is no break in the liquid force coming in and going out.  Only its phase be different. The turbine even when not in action is at constant point of rotation. Constant force starting at pump finishes at turbine entry, behind the turbine a vacuum of negative force exists. Tipping force not reduce the vacuum as the gas condense to liquid  reinstating the original liquid force being supplied by the turbine shaft. .

@libre..lets leave light alone for now because it requires us to consult the laws governing light. until you can eradicate the permanent source of emf in between 2 platinum electrodes at different depths in non-reactive electrolyte in a totaly closed isothermal system we are forced to throw out the generality of the 2nd law.

The thing I find confusing in OTEC is the need for a deep pipe.   The hydroxide molecule (produced by the self-ionization of water)  forms on the surface of any vessel of water.   The oh ion is less dense than the h20 and the h30.  It bubbles to the surface.  (possibly driven by the negative charge of the Earth?)  In any case these ions have a bond length that gets "stretched" by the electric field vibration we call electro-magnetic waves.  The electric field polarization (potential between node and antinode of a wave) stresses the oxygen hydrogen bond length.  Upon passage of the wave the molecule relaxes like a stretched spring relaxes.  It oscillates between being compressed and rarified)    This phenomenon we call heat.   Molecular vibrational energy.  This energy of the surface hydroxide ions is then transferred to molecules via conductance.   This creates a large temperature divergence in the first few inches of water.  Unfortunately waves and currents screw up the whole process.    Most harbors that shelter the water from wind and wave activity act as the best solar collectors.   As the tide changes and the harbor empties through various channels,  the heated surface waters are caused to flow through these channels.   This is where an evaporator should be located.  The condensor could be located in the mud at the bottom of the harbor.   The moon then acts as a pump pumping heated water over the evaporator heat exchanger.  This allows for a smaller evaporator heat exchanger for the same amount of input energy.   The problem with all these heat exchangers are bio-fouling.  Coral is a very efficient heat exchange substance.   It's skeleton transmits heated surface water energy and stores the heat in parts of the reef that act as heat resevoirs.   When the feeders encounter cold water during high tides they simply close their mouth and stay snuggled up inside there own bones which is a huge heat sink for the heated surface waters.  I went to Leedskalins coral castle amusement park.  The coral can sit there in direct sunlight and stay cool to the touch.  His bathtub made of limestone embedded in the coral  will burn your hand.    Two pieces of copper (one embedded in the limestone and one in the coral would generate a constant current source.    Wonder if Ed had a heat engine going out there?   The castle walls during the day create a perfect thermal barrier.   The walls shelter the core.  The sun heats up the core and the hot air rises.  The hot air rising draws outside air to be drawn through various portals.   He had this airconditioned area where he schooled children.  There are slits into the interior of the classroom where a constant breeze is drawn over the cool corral.  The children would stand in this air-conditioned place to have a cool time-out and be schooled.  I stood in one and it is ergonomically very comfortable as well as offering escape from the florida heated water vapor problem. 

   Coral itself forms quiessent harbors.   This allows the lagoons to take advantage of infrared energy capture.   During low tides the lagoons heat up as the reef creates a barrier to the ocean wave and wind water mixing.  The shore side of the reef if full of stuff coral eats,  along with nice warm water.  This is a pretty ancient lifeform but it's insight into natural phenomenon is remarkable.  Imagine it knows how to construct harbors that become algae farms.  Then it knows that the algae farms will attract other species that eat the algae.   It then has developed hunters that dart out and eat the algae grazers.   It has developed methods for extraction of it's vital minerals and then forms bones with these minerals that act as energy storage sites to keep the hunters warm and comfy ready for the next days action. 
   And man the hairless ape developed at these same lagoons.  I think we are just apes that learned how to fish.   At some point I think we were way better swimmers.  Some of the hairless apes became such adroit swimmers they no longer needed their hands and they became fins.  They no longer needed their legs so they became a tail.  They now swim the seas and are the smartest best hunters there are. 
  The florida heated water vapor problem could of course be converted into a major benefit.   You have the evaporator in direct sunlight where the heat and humidity are highest.   This then boils the gas through a turbine and condense the gas in the coral core beneath the ground.    The water vapor condensing on the evaporator could be collected and provide freshwater scources for such things as drinking and irrigation.  Most of Southern florida is basically sand on top of coral.  At some point there must have been a huge barrier reef that for some reason or another got covered by sand.  Have no idea why the whole area got turned into a beach but you dig through the sand and you get to the coral.  It's a matter of a couple of feet in some areas to get to the huge heat sink the buried coral represents.

Hello Sparks thanks for your most interesting post. Lots of new knowledge there for me. Whilst I am curious as to what the coral heat sink recharge be like, it has enormous potential.  The simplest Heat engine we have is attached. It arrives from 18th Century Royal Navy trials with the Ammonia engine using sea water as the condenser medium and air as the heating medium. Went no further as Coal crashed to penny a ton. Our work however engages ambient cooling in place sea water. To increase efficiency we rid it of solid parts and made fully turbine. Turbine can be as simple as a car water pump. The remainder being water pipe and tennis ball. Physics do all the rest. The system can be entire liquid or gas over liquid. Entire liquid model boils the liquid to a gas pocket forming in the head of the pressure cylinder/pipe. Condensing liquid falls straight back into the workings. Gas model engages a pump that inputs the cold gas, which has formed after the hot gas has exhausted from the engine, into the hot liquid contained in the pressure  cylinder/pipe, not unlike a Diesel engine. CO2 being the best gas for use. Electrical output 720 watts is calculated using a flow rate of one litre per second at 9 bar pressure. Multiply the number of 9 bar brackets in the heat differential, plus the litres per second to obtain total power output. The attached is water model designed to recollect the condensed steam. Gas injection slightly different in design.

theres a guy,thomas prevenslik is his name,who made some nano-sized silica shells that glowed with visible intense light nonstop.the shells upconverted ambient infrared into visible light with no expenditure of energy.up-conversion of far infrared into higher light energies can be put in front of a photovoltaic device and yield electricity day and night nonstop.wether up-conversion of light is a 2nd law breach is another issue all on its own.

Gyula:

QuoteIn the other thread http://www.overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/msg360645/#msg360645 (http://www.overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/msg360645/#msg360645) I mentioned that the Tesla SBC must have several series and parallel resonant frequencies due to the distributed reactances (it is a kind of transmission line) so the complex impedance (while cancels) can be equal to the wire resistance only IF the AC input current is at a series resonant frequency. In case the AC input current matches a parallel resonant frequency, the complex impedance also cancels but the real impedance must be (Q*XL) as usual for a parallel LC tank and this real impedance must be higher than the wire resistance unless the loaded Q equals 1 and the inductive reactance value is less than the wire resistance.

I agree with you that it can be modeled as some kind of transmission line with a short for the termination at one end of the line.  So that means you can look at it as a transmission line with an "incorrect" termination at one end that will cause reflections.   There is an unknown termination at the "supply" end and most experimenters would not understand this and the ramifications.  As I mentioned earlier in this thread if you start considering its AC characteristics in depth it will get very complex and become a complete "mess" that is beyond the capabilities of almost all of the experimenters on both forums.  If you want the coil to act as a series LC resonator so that it passes current easily at the basic resonant frequency that's fine but what then?  What do you do with that?

There is lots of bravado and there are "hurt feelings" that the patent would be carefully examined.  For all the brave talk, I have my doubts that anybody will be able to demonstrate any clear advantage or application associated with an SBC.  Who cares if you can prove the coil has more capacitance because you observe a lower self-resonant frequency compared to a similar regular coil.  It's very possible that this was a patent for something that ultimately became no more than a curiosity.  This is an exercise in critical thinking skills where you analyze something on face value and you ignore the unproven and grandiose statements from the Tesla fan boys.

MileHigh

Quote from: profitis on July 07, 2013, 02:09:50 PM
theres a guy,thomas prevenslik is his name,who made some nano-sized silica shells that glowed with visible intense light nonstop.the shells upconverted ambient infrared into visible light with no expenditure of energy.up-conversion of far infrared into higher light energies can be put in front of a photovoltaic device and yield electricity day and night nonstop.wether up-conversion of light is a 2nd law breach is another issue all on its own.

    Snakes regularly see near infrared.   The chemicals in the snakes retina are excited by near infrared frequencies.  This then produces electrical dc impulses that travel along optical nerves  (wires),   Plants regularly see ultraviolet light and redshift it to disassociate water.   Tesla realized the multiple sources of what we call alternative energy and worked on his magnifying transmitter.   Instead of filling oil tankers with oil his plan was to fill electrical tank circuits with electrical energy.  Create a standing wave field and cause this standing wave field to move back and forth a little bit to excite electricity in ground plane conductors.  This would allow the power of a waterfall to fill up an electrical tank circuit thousands of miles away.  This was and is very problematic to the energy cartels.   Their grid useless-their meters useless-their monopoly on distribution of chemical energy gone.