Overunity.com Archives

This thread is to help people start building pulse motors from the ground up. All questions are welcome. This is a continuation from thread "pulse motor Working video and info" located hear, http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2552.0/topicseen.html
It is highly recommended that you read the previous thread to get caught up to where we are and what we are talking about.
Jason

Hey guys,
This is the newest video showing scope shots of the of my motor running at 5 volts @ 15 mA. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5kgLRrImMU&mode=user&search= The diode is hooked up across the base and emitter in this video. With out it hooked up, It charges to 160 volts, but the wave on the scope doesnt change. Only the spike voltage.
Jason

After spending years learning and developing PM motors, I turned my attention to Pulse motors. My early work is documented at http://www.theowlnest.com/kickbypage.html
After experimenting with winding a bifilar coil and using a Hall IC and transistor as a way of switching current on and off, I became interested in Linear Magnetic Motion. See  http://www.theowlnest.com/piston.html
Last January I built the "Sotropa Motor". See http://www.theowlnest.com/opm.html
My YouTube videos have had over 14,000 views and most comments I get refer to the inefficiency of linear as opposed to rotary motion but I continue in my quest. This is the YouTube link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvtBloO4mqA&mode=related&search=
I am attaching a drawing of my first puls motor circuit.
Tropes

Peter,
Even in your "Sotropa Motor" you can collect the collapsing magnetic field from the collector and emitter of your transistor.
Jason

Quote from: Nastrand2000 on September 17, 2007, 12:02:01 AM
Peter,
Even in your "Sotropa Motor" you can collect the collapsing magnetic field from the collector and emitter of your transistor.
Jason

Yes, I am getting 13-14 volt readings between collector and emitter with 18volt input. Is this " flyback voltage" ?
I have two capacitors; 16000uf, 60 vdc. I will hook one up and see how long it takes to fill it to 36volts.
Peter

Quote from: tropes on September 17, 2007, 12:22:44 AM

Quote from: Nastrand2000 on September 17, 2007, 12:02:01 AM
Peter,
Even in your "Sotropa Motor" you can collect the collapsing magnetic field from the collector and emitter of your transistor.
Jason

Yes, I am getting 13-14 volt readings between collector and emitter with 18volt input. Is this " flyback voltage" ?
I have two capacitors; 16000uf, 60 vdc. I will hook one up and see how long it takes to fill it to 36volts.
Peter

Well I hooked the cap to the transistor and the motor slowed down like the coil wasn't getting a full 18 volts. I wonder if I am just using part of the battery voltage rather than any flyback voltage. I switched the leads around and fried the Hall IC. Now that's real experimenting!!!
Bed time for boys. I need my rest for surgery this week.
Tropes

I could be wrong tropes but try taking from the collector and emmiter and sending through a diode or bridge. That way it shouldnt burn out anything, hopefully.

Quote from: Ren on September 17, 2007, 01:58:26 AM
I could be wrong tropes but try taking from the collector and emmiter and sending through a diode or bridge. That way it shouldnt burn out anything, hopefully.

Ren
I'll give it a try but I'm running out of transistors.
Thanks for the link in the Adams motor thread. I find the Adams Motor to be the most interesting of all pulse motors. Would you upload a larger drawing.
I have uploaded to YouTube my first pulse motor (2005) and bililar coil:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBjcaSCUoQg
BTW are you comfortable using "flyback voltage" rather than "Back EMF" to describe the voltage collected from a drive coil?
Tropes

here is the pic mate. I dont know what to call the pulse we're getting off secondaries. I have the perfect piece to build one of these motors. Its a dropsaw aluminium bench. The center of it is a pivoting circular platform which could be used to hold the generator stator windings and allow them to be minutely adjusted. I should start it one day, it would be very interesting to study.

Hey Ren
Good pic. Looks like 2 pulse and 4 collector coils; interesting.
Now, I have a recurring problem which you mentioned earlier. My Hall sensor has taken to sticking in the "on" position. It is a bipolar Hall which is supposed to switch off when exposed to the North magnetic pole. Were you able to solve this problem?
Peter

if you have had any shorts or mini explosions  ;D its possible that your hall is fried. If not, check all connections again, especially the three hall pins, make sure they are all isolated. The only other way I know how to check is with another hall switch and transistor.... sorry. Also make sure your hall is rated for the voltage your using.

Quote from: Ren on September 17, 2007, 11:33:20 PM
if you have had any shorts or mini explosions  ;D its possible that your hall is fried. If not, check all connections again, especially the three hall pins, make sure they are all isolated. The only other way I know how to check is with another hall switch and transistor.... sorry. Also make sure your hall is rated for the voltage your using.

I've fried my share of Hall switches but the fried one's don't switch on. This one stays on all the time.
The Adams drawing seems to indicate that moving the generator coils around the rotor will change the amount of captured current. Any guess why?
  Peter

if it stays on I think its receiving too many volts. Try lower volts maybe?

As to the movement of the coils. I like to believe its a natural phenom. Look up the fibbonaci spiral, golden ratio etc, its rather interesting stuff. Seen all through nature. Thats about as far as my guess goes.

Also try putting a resistor inline with your hall or transistor to stop back current spikes.
Jason

I suppose somewhere here we should start talking about how "electricity" flows through a circuit. Current theory suggests that electrons flow from one atom to another. However, If you start to dig deeper into quantum electrodynamics, you will start to understand that the valence shell electrons are the ones we deal with in electrical flow (current or amps). The valence shell electrons are affected by a specific wavelength of photonic interaction from its neighboring atom. This interaction expands the valence shell of the outer electron of said atom. This expanded shell will collapse back to a stable orbit giving off a photonic wavelength corresponding to its shell collapse, thus giving its expanded energy to the next atom and expanding its valence shell. Everytime this happens there is some loss to the system. However, These losses can be redirected and captured. This is our end goal. Sorry if this sounds a bit complex, but hey we are trying to get a "free lunch" here.  :P
Jason

Hi Jason
A couple of questions; when you say"Everytime this happens there is some loss to the system.", do you mean there is a loss of electrons? is this a loss to the power source (battery)?
I have used http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/HighSchool/Electricity/electricalcurrent.htm
as an information source. It's pretty basic but so am I.
Rather than a free lunch I would be happy with a cheap lunch.
Peter

@ tropes:
   Go and get some neon indicator lamps and wire them accross the emitter and collector of your transistors. If the voltage goes greater than the rated, the neon fires and protects the tranny. If you have a capture circuit in place the neon will do nothing but is there in case something goes wrong and you wind up with an open. I am currently using the resisted version from RS and they work just fine. Just use transistors rated over 150v.
@ All:
   Hall sensors are very sensitive and fry easy. I have used reeds and inductive pickup coils. Small reeds can fry as well if you let too much current flow to the base. I just found some rated at 1 am 50v dc that I think will do great. Might want to consider them. But then in time, the fast switching will beat them to an early grave too.

thaelin

Quote from: tropes on September 17, 2007, 12:22:44 AM
Yes, I am getting 13-14 volt readings between collector and emitter with 18volt input. Is this " flyback voltage" ?
I have two capacitors; 16000uf, 60 vdc. I will hook one up and see how long it takes to fill it to 36volts.
Peter

Do you mean the back emf from the collapsing coil voltage?
I thought that these spikes were massive - short duration,
but very high voltage.
Paul.

Peter,
I don't believe electrons are lost, the conversion from wave to particle gives off an electromagnetic wavelength that is 600 to 800 nanometers which corresponds to the infrared spectrum. It gives off heat for every transfer of photonic wave, this is the loss I am referring to. I can go into more detail if it is needed.
Here is the latest video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_1OVABZMrM&mode=user&search=
Jason

Oh and by the way my transistor for this motor runs dead cold.
Jason

After checking the voltage once the meter was turned off for 5 minutes (being that meters interfere with charge) the voltage stays at 500+ volts.
Jason

Please disreguard the last post I have found a problem with my meter. This is why I always like to use analog meters. Sorry for misleading data in previous videos when my meter was set to 600Volts. At 200 volts the change is minimal ( a few volts when my hand gets near the meter). Here is the latest video to show my findings, thought it might be important to true researches playing with these motors. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_PNndzjEj0
Hope this helps people from jumping the gun claiming overunity. The true cap reading is around 170 volts. But something odd is going on.
Jason

Maybe it is this "something odd" that we should focus, but I'm not sure how to go about it. Any comments?
Jason

I still think this is the most impressive motor for capturing the collapsing magnetic field. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4BWJagMV6Q&mode=user&search=
You can see that the setting on the meter is 200 volts.
Jason

Jason I share your woes. Its frustrating, because you can never be sure your getting a correct reading. I have just completed a bunch of experiments and I'll share those later. But I would like to second your meter mishaps with some of my own. I set all four coils up on separate transistors and halls. They were aligned to all fire separately. The voltage coming off collector/emitter would peak around 180v on the multimeter. Interesting enough this was with only two coils running. The analogue gauge said volts were around 4-5 v. When all four coils were switched on voltage on the digital dropped to 70- 80v but analogue showed a reading of 16v. This confirmed to me what I have been told, that speed isnt necessary for high voltage, rather hindering it.

I thought about this and came to the conclusion that at slower speed it is creating a higher voltage through the transistor which is what we capture. The secondary windings flowing through the bridge act much like an alternator and deliver 4-5 CURRENT based volts. At higher speeds with the other coils firing there is not as much pure voltage but the CURRENT based voltage rises, like it would in a alternator/dynamo/windmill.
On a scope I can imagine the slower speed having a higher spike but a lower flare out at the bottom, the higher speed the spikes would be reduced but the flare out would be more significant, hence 16v .

Pretty unscientific description, hopefully someone else can add or expand or re explain what is happening. My workshop is a mess...
:P

Ren,
I agree, lower speed equals more voltage but higher speeds equal higher current. But we are looking for a different way to charge batteries and this may be it. Its always good to look at all phenomena that we come across whether it is important or not.
Jason

I tested the voltage hand multiplier and it does the same on my meter when I place hands upon it.

Does anybody know why my Motor uses less amps when it runs quicker?

It makes sense that the faster it goes the more amps it should draw, but it doesn't.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=z4eZ7drn030

Also I have been told that neodymium magnets are no good for pulse motors but see no reason why. any ideas?

It draws less amps the faster it runs because the pulse length gets shorter and the motor becomes more efficient the faster it goes.
Jason

Thanks for answering, but it draws 125mA when its just on...

Then when is running through the reed switch (Timed) it draws 50mA at a distance and I have got it down to 18mA.

If time is the only factor then when it runs slows its off-on state is the same as when it runs fast (same off state as on in time)

Am I being stupid or is it not proportional?

Paul

Any ideas on the neodymium magnets?

Anyone? Ive been told not to use them?

The other reason the motor will draw more or less amperage is coil saturation. When the coil is brought closer to magnets, it is not able to let current flow through it as easily (if you are using a repeling force from the coil). So for any given distance the coil will consume less energy the faster it goes. As far as using neo mags, I personally have never had a problem. If you are using an metal core in the center of your coil, the problem that I believe you are referring to is core saturation. This is why ferrite magnets are used in things like Bedini's school girl motor and other similar design. If you have checked out my videos then you can see that I'm able to use very large neos with no problem, yet this is also why I use air coils. Hope this helps.
Jason

neo's seem to have worked well for a number of people including myself. Perhaps the suggestion against them was directed towards beginners who may have found them more difficult to affix to rotors etc. I have found one instance however where the rotor ceramics were replaced with neo's and it reduced the speed (not necessarily a bad thing). The user didnt make any changes however, he just reverted back to the ceramics.

Perhaps the cores were oversized for the attraction power of the neo's, creating more drag at speeds. Then again Jason (Nastrand) doesnt even use cores and has obtained excellent results.

by the way jase, I need some help with the back emf capture. I followed your diagram, diodes included and I got nothing. without the diodes, just a line from emmiter and collector, I am getting spikes nearly as high as 200v (with my hand well away from the meter :D). Funny thing is if I swap my meter around ( change meters positive from collector to emmiter etc...) it only goes to around 80 v. This is with one coil only.

I realised that pnp works different to npn so I reversed the diode order, off the emmiter and back to the collector and I can fill a cap this way to around 70 - 80v. Do you think my original reading of 200 v is just a miscalibration? or have I wired it up incorrectly? Do you send spikes through a bridge first? Or straight to a cap?.

by the way jase, I need some help with the back emf capture. I followed your diagram, diodes included and I got nothing. without the diodes, just a line from emmiter and collector, I am getting spikes nearly as high as 200v (with my hand well away from the meter :D). Funny thing is if I swap my meter around ( change meters positive from collector to emmiter etc...) it only goes to around 80 v. This is with one coil only.

I realised that pnp works different to npn so I reversed the diode order, off the emmiter and back to the collector and I can fill a cap this way to around 70 - 80v. Do you think my original reading of 200 v is just a miscalibration? or have I wired it up incorrectly? Do you send spikes through a bridge first? Or straight to a cap?.

Ren,
I send the spike directly to a cap. In fact the diodes on the capture side are not entirely necessary. I use them when charging a battery so that if anything happens to stop the motor, the battery doesn't have any possible chance at discharging. As for the meter reading, I just swapped mine around and I too get a lower reading.
Jason

hmmm interesting. So no diode on capture side, only on return. Capture diode is to stop current drain from primary if motor stops.

Also, I have nearly completed a simple circuit borrowed from Bedini ssg. It uses the first winding to trigger the second, like yours. It has a 1k pot and 100 ohm resistor on the trigger coil, the firing coil runs to collector on the npn. I am going to hook it up but I am unsure of whether it will fire due to my coil being less winds than Bedinis specs. Is it possible that the 1k and 100 ohm will be too high/low for the coils I use? Would it be as simple as shuffling these parts with others to find something that works or would I just be better off winding a coil to spec?

Sorry, still trying to get my head around firing from a secondary winding. Thanks for your help Jase

Ren,
I don't put any resistance on my driving coil. All of my resistance is on my trigger coil. I have a 1.5k resistor inline with my pot. This controls how much current I allow to the driving coil through my transistor and reduces the stress on the pot. As for the coil itself, I never worried about Bedini's design, I use about 1/3rd the wire.
Jason

Also the only diode that is necessary to run this motor (or a motor like mine, North south north south setup)for experimental purposes,  is on the trigger coil.
Jason

Ok, thanks. I also have no resistance on the drive coil in this schematic. I thought the variable pot and resistor on the drive winding might have some effect as to when the trigger coil completes the circuit allowing the drive to fire.

When magnet passes the drive (and fire coil in this case) coil it creates a voltage in the coils which in turn triggers the transistor to connect the drive coil to + and - completing the circuit. When magnet passes  away transistor disconnects circuit because voltage in secondary winding has dropped. Is this pretty much how it works? What purpose does the pot have? Does it create more resistance in the secondary winding thus creating a higher/lower voltage and thus allowing different timing because transistor fires at a set voltage?

And your diode allows current/voltage to only pass one way on the trigger coil, thus effectively blocking negative current produced by the south pole and only allowing transistor to fire on the north?

Hope those q's made sense.

You got it exactly! The pot changes the level of voltage in the transistor, thereby changing the current to flow in the driving coil. The more resistance the pot produces, the less current in the driving coil. the less resistance the pot produces, the more current to the driving coil.
Jason

You have to think that a transistor is like a tunnel allowing flow. The less resistance to flow means a bigger tunnel for electricity to flow. More resistance means a narrowing of that tunnel, thus allowing less electrical energy to flow(less amperage). The same voltage is always going to flow, this is where the analogy between water and electricity differ. By narrowing a tunnel of water, the pressure would rise, but not with electricity( the voltage will stay the same).  Voltage is sometimes referred to as pressure, but this is a misnomer.
Jason

And the trigger coil is what allows this flow to either increase or decrease
Jason

Ren,
I was wondering the size of cap, how many microfarads and the voltage max of the cap. Also, what is the voltage you are putting in. If I remember correctly it was 12 volts (me being lazy and not looking at previous posts).
Jason

jase I ripped apart an old crt monitor and ripped a couple of caps out of there. I'll make some vids when I get it up and running. Just running the secondary thru a bridge (puts out about 3.5 volts) I was filling a cap (I think it was 330 uf 100v) to about 80 volts. Thats not from collector or emmiter. Oh and I charged a 9 volt like you suggested! It went from 7.5 to 8.02 in about 20 min. (Actually it went to 9+ but settled later that night to 8.) This is the voltage created in the secondary of 1 coil alone. Running at 12v, 0.7 of an amp.

Excellent, your starting to "feel out" your motor. I suggest this for anybody building one. Good Work.
Jason

After reading your post a few times, what you are recapturing is quite impressive. I think using your recapture technique and mine we may break unity. Great work.
Jason

I suppose now its time for me to build more coils. I hate building coils. :P
Jason

Have a good night guys.

lol Id be happy for just Unity right now! Thanks for the help and compliments Jase.

Using the hall does free up the 2nd wire for capture. I have built a little circuit board with the hall and transistor attached and its so much easier to adjust. I can replace a hall switch in about 5 seconds too, saves alot of frustration thats for sure!

Oh and with the coils, yeah they suck, but just do em bit by bit. I wound one coil over a week and it ended up being the nicest shape and best performer of the lot. Id also like to try a coil with 3 or even 5 winds, link em up and see how much voltage they put out on the secondaries. Be interesting to see the sort of voltage coming out. with 4 secondaries winded together I have got out over 20 volts on  an analogue gauge. Mind you that was drawing about 2 amps @ 12v on the primaries.

Have a good one mate, I'll talk to ya soon.
s

Ren,
I create my coils with a drill winding them. I going to build a better jig for this setup. I will make a video of it. I tried using my camcorder to film the motor, but the video was 200+ megs for 1 min of video. So first I either need to figure out how to turn the cams settings down or how to compress and leave some of the quality.
Jason

cool. I might try the drill sometime, would definately save some sore hands. For compressing your 200+ file download a free compressor, I just grabbed this one. http://www.stoik.com/products/svc/

Theres a free version which lets you do most things. If your camcorder saves in common format, i.e. mpeg/divx/avi etc it should be easy to select the file, choose a save location and select form of encoding. Id go for one of the divx/xvids, the smaller the dimension (240 x 120 etc) the smaller the movie window, but the smaller the size. Hit record and let it do the rest.

By the way, I was wondering what the specs are on the cap you're filling? I got a bedini ssg circuit to work  last night, but it doesnt seem to keep rotations up unless I give it a really good spin first. I'll have to check all my connections and make sure the coil is close enough etc. It was interesting to play around with the pot and see the neon bulb (charging battery disconnected) change colour and intensity as timing was altered.

The one one cap I use most often is a 450volt 1microF. Its a tiny cap. However, larger caps can be filled. The largest cap I fill is a 24volt 1.5F cap.
Jason

I thought today I might try driving the motor off one coil and position the other three for collecting only. It probably wouldnt turn fast enough so I might remove the cores from the pickups. If I can get decent voltage off these air coils this would be an optimum setup with little friction.

I just built a 3 inch coil and am testing it on top of the 2 inch coil. The bottom coil will be for bemf capture as well as generated coil voltage from the passage of magenets. The top coil will be for capture of collapsing mag field.
Jason

Well at this point I have discovered that the motor can once again run at a lower voltage (2 volts at 5 milliamp). However, the output is a mere 45 volts. The reason I built this coil was to see if coil width had anything to do with rotation and voltage collapse. It would seem that It generates a greater voltage with width, like Tesla described in his bifilar coil circuits. The coil I built is 3 inch by 3/4 inch. I think I could get near this result with 3 inch by 1/32 inch coil. I will try this next. It will save alot of wire in the end, god only knows how much I have spent on wire.  ::)
Jason

But I believe the wire is the key, not the magnets (they only help to meet our ends).
Jason

This is also the key to the TPU circuitry if you have been following it. I suggest anyone in this forum to follow that as well, being that we are working on the same principle.
Jason

The way I have understood things so far is that your coils should match the impedance of the batteries you charge. I dont even know how to measure the impedance of my batteries yet, but this sounds rather interesting.

Would you think that the field created by a wider coil was larger and more efficient with your rotor size, thus allowing it to turn at minimal voltage, but resulting in minimal spikes? Or did the coil have more turns on it creating a larger impedance?

I will go and check out the tpu thread, need to buy some more wire now...

Quote from: Ren on September 17, 2007, 01:58:26 AM
I could be wrong tropes but try taking from the collector and emmiter and sending through a diode or bridge. That way it shouldnt burn out anything, hopefully.

Quote from: Ren on September 22, 2007, 11:49:23 PM
Hi guys another Aussie here too. I was drawn towards this thread out of interest to Leedskalnin, Im glad I bumped into it.

@ Brian. I am currently learning/building a pulsed motor setup along with a few others in this thread here. http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3318.0/topicseen.html

Alot of our design is similar to the Adams motor, borrowing from Bedini and others too. I would be honored if you would visit it sometime, perhaps share your knowledge, maybe even learn something!  Who knows.

I would be interested to read Lee's mag currents if anyone does have a link to them, just looking at some of the pictures of his magneto/generator was quite inspiring considering when it was built.

Anyways good to meet some of the locals here, I'm in Gosford by the way. Cheers

Greetings Ren and all you other Adams experimenters.
I'm fairly busy at the moment, but when I get a few spare hours here and there, I will try to assist you with some schematics and information which may help you stop burning your halls and transistors/mosfets etc. Though I am no longer interested in Adams motors per se, I'm sure I have some info based on 10 years of experience which will at least enable you to build some highly efficient motors. I have during that time analysed one Adams motor which was showing a small degree of genuine overunity,(built by a friend of mine, and utilysing mechanical switching), but an in depth investigation into it revealed that it was a potential environmental threat. When I get the time I shall explain further.

Cheers from hoptoad  :)

P.S I wrote this first in the Leedskalnin section, but have reposted here as it is the most appropriate thread.

Ren,
Thank you for the link to the video converter, it works great. Got the 200+ meg video down to 21 megs with very little loss in video quality.
Jason

Thank you Ren and Jason for your personal messages. The surgery went well and I am now hopefully cancer free.
It is great to see others like "hoptoad" taking an interest in the thread. Unless there are unselfish contributors this will not survive.  This should not be a place to show off but as Jason pointed out at the beginning, those who want to share and learn should feel welcome.
I hope to soon resume my work on the multi-piston Sotropa Motor and become a contributor. My main interest is still the use of the attraction  phase and the similarities to the Adams Motor.
My last post questioned the use of the term "back emf". Is there any discussion there?
Tropes

Hi one and all, as I previously mentioned :

"I have during that time analysed one Adams motor which was showing a small degree of genuine overunity,(built by a friend of mine, and utilising mechanical switching), but an in depth investigation into it revealed that it was a potential environmental threat. When I get the time I shall explain further."

Now to explain: In 1999 I was phoned by Martin, a good friend of mine in Adelaide, who excitedely reported that he believed he had achieved OU with a high impedence Adams motor, consisting of 4 neo magnets embedded in an acrylic rotor approximately 4 inches in diameter and having two solid soft iron core stators wound with fine wire of approximately 1000 turns each and with a DC resistance of 32 ohms each. The coils were connected in series giving a DC resistance of 64 ohms total. Although he said the OU effect was feeble, he was certain after repeating his experiment many times over, that he had indeed succeeded.

He asked me to travel to Adelaide at the earliest possible convenience to help him confirm his success. I promptly agreed to his request and met him a few days later to go over his experiments and data. This took all week-end due the method of testing and the nature of lead acid batteries.

All testing was carried out in a temperature controlled room set at a comfortable 22 deg C to ensure that the battery readings did not vary due to ambient temperature differences throughout the testing period.

First he discharged his 12.6V 1.2 Ah supply battery down to to an even 12V through a resistive load, to rid it of surface charge. Then the battery was allowed to recover its charge for two hours before connection to the motor. At the begining of the experiment/s, the battery reading was 12.46 Volts. The switching used was a mechanical replication of Adams "star switch" comprising of a sterling silver commutator and relay spring levers with gold plated contact points. The duty cycle was set to approximately 20 per cent.

Upon connection, the motor immediately ran, drawing approximately 80ma, and as it picked up speed and settled into its running RPM the current reduced to around 5ma (an average measure using a sensitive analogue current meter.) The voltage was likewise measured by a high quality analogue voltmeter.(He didn't have access to an oscilliscope). The battery initially dropped to around 12.3V on connection but quickly rose to around 12.38 as the motor settled in. Then slowly but surely over a period of 4 hours the battery voltage rose above 12.46 volts to 12.62 volts.

After 4 hours the motor was stopped, the battery discharged to 12v again, and the process repeated throughout the whole weekend. Each time the battery rose back up to 12.62 volts until the last run when we allowed it run for 5 hours and it reached 12.68 Volts. All final voltages were confirmed by a digital voltmeter when the motor had finished its runtime. During runtime, digital volt meters are useless because the sparking across the points cause RF interference.

During this time, I took a lot of notice of the spark on the contacts. It was a bright dark blue, with emerald green and bright yellow tinges on the outer perimeters of the spark. I also noticed a slight smell of ozone and a kind of metallic taste in my mouth when I leaned in closely to observe. I mentioned this to Martin, so we decided to take some high resolution movie footage of the sparks at close range with his commercial quality film recorder.

At the end of the testing we were both convinced that indeed the battery had increased in voltage and the phenomenon was genuine. But I had a really nagging feeling that something was not right. We discussed at great length the apparent success of the experiment, but agreed that it would be great to get another mutual chemistry friend of ours to witness the experiment first hand on the following week-end if he was available.

In the meantime, he would get the roll of film of the sparking contents processed. Our mutual friend Adrian agreed to meet with us two weekends later, and we repeated the experiment again in his presence. I explained to Adrian that I had a gut feeling about the sparking and its relevance to the apparant OU effects. Upon seeing the motor running, he agreed that my concerns and assumptions may be correct. After completing another week-ends worth of experiments with the same results, Adrian agreed to take both the processed film and the working machine to his company's lab, where he could use their equipment to run a spectral analysis on both the processed film images and the machine itself.

We again all met at Martin's place 3 weeks later, and Adrian confirmed my fears about the sparking. It appeared that the high impedance coils were producing a collapsing emf in the order of thousands of volts, and the high intensity, high temperature spark produced was literaly burning the air. More importantly, and detrimentally, it was causing complex reactions by the ignition of Nitrogen, Water vapour, oxygen, silver and carbon dioxide, resulting in the production of a gaseous soup consisting of various percentages of Nitric acid, Nitrous Oxide, Ozone, Silver Nitrate, liberated Hydrogen and Carbon Monoxide. All of which have a negative environmental impact in one way or another in an open atmospheric environment.

Also apparent was the slow but sure degradation of the silver commutator, with a well worn track caused by the sparking, though the gold plated relay contact appeared relatively unaffected except for a slight coating of carbon calx.

As for the OU results, it appeared that the classic point/plane electrical contact of the commutator and relay lever points was also causing ionization and a separation of electrons from some of the atoms of liberated Hydrogen created by the intense spark. A combination of the moving magnetic field from the strong neo magnets and the collapsing magnetic field of the coils appears to be responsible for shunting these free electrons back into the supply circuit.

As you can imagine, Martin and I felt the elation at his success transform to feelings of consternation and concern. If one were to scale up the motor to a size and power rating for practical usage, the negative impacts of the sparking would also be scaled up.

As a comparative experiment, we inserted a .01uf cap and a diode in reverse bias across the contacts and ran the motor again. This time the spark was considerably less apparent and volatile, but all OU effects flew out the window.

So in conclusion, bear this in mind when using mechanical switching in conjunction with highly inductive reactance circuits. You may just be substituting one environmental dilemna with another.

Cheers to all. When I get the chance, I will post some positive information to ponder re Adams style motors using semiconductor switching.

Mechanical switching has shown overunity in the past. This may be due to the molecular change that happens during the switching process. While the degradation of the metal occurs, there are liberated electrons that help to charge the battery. I personally would not be worried about the small amounts of noxious gases given off, a simple catalytic process can trap them if a larger machine was developed.

Now that's one fuck of a good story!!!  I just knew this Hoptoad was going to be a great contributor.
Tropes

Peter,
There has not been any discussion of bemf vs. flyback. Just to get it out there, BEMF happens while the driving coil is active. What I'm capturing happens after the coil fires, and then the field collapses. If I understand flyback voltage (which I don't), it is the same thing I'm capturing. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm always happy to learn. God knows I need alot of teaching.  ;D
Jason

Quote from: Nastrand2000 on September 23, 2007, 11:02:04 AM
Peter,
There has not been any discussion of bemf vs. flyback. Just to get it out there, BEMF happens while the driving coil is active. What I'm capturing happens after the coil fires, and then the field collapses. If I understand flyback voltage (which I don't), it is the same thing I'm capturing. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm always happy to learn. God knows I need alot of teaching.  ;D
Jason

I think in this forum BEMF has come to mean any voltage captured after the coil has pulsed or voltage induced by a magnet passing a coil. However, I believe you are correct in that BEMF occurs as a result of Lenz's Law while the driving coil is active. The electromagnetic force that I would like to use is the voltage created when a magnet is attracted to the coil or pulled towards a coil.
Perhaps we are both full of shit and still don't have it right.
Tropes

Peter,
You are correct (that we are full of shit  :P). But the voltage you are looking at is BEMF, lenz law. However if you try to remove this voltage there will be BEMF to that voltage and so on. The only way to get rid of it, is to get rid of resistance. So you would need a superconducting coil. I believe that you could capture the first pulse of BEMF and help your motor continue its direction but you have to consider the resonance effects within the coil itself. And resonance calculation is beyond me.
Jason

Peter,
I also believe that the only way to capture this BEMF would be a bifilar wound coil with the capturing coil being much smaller in gauge. Say a 20 gauge wrapped with 28 or 30 gauge just to start the testing.
Jason

Quote from: Nastrand2000 on September 23, 2007, 11:43:33 AM
Peter,
I also believe that the only way to capture this BEMF would be a bifilar wound coil with the capturing coil being much smaller in gauge. Say a 20 gauge wrapped with 28 or 30 gauge just to start the testing.
Jason

Okay, so would you wrap the two wires the same direction or would one be going the opposite way?
Peter

You can wrap them the same way for ease, then try connecting one way then the other. You will get the result of forward and backwards this way.
Jason

Interesting, one thing I just tried was taking a scope shot of the collapsing field  while running at 2 volts. The scope is registering 300 volt spikes. This is with the wider slimmer coil. That is the highest spike I have seen at this voltage. And just to be clear, that is charging a cap. However, the cap only reaches 60 volts (450 volt 1 mF).
Jason

Before I quit for the day ( I'm being told I should rest ), is there someone that can tell me why my Hall switch stays "on" from time to time. The pnp transistor( tip 107) doesn't change or is not affected.
Peter

The only reason I could guess is latent voltage in the system keeping the tunneling effect open. Get some rest.
Jason

well I found that cleaning out my bearings with acetone then putting motor oil in them (10w-30) allows me to run this motor at 1.5 volts. Now the motor runs very quietly and it puts out a continuous 40 volts, enough to charge a 12 volt easily.
Jason

I've concluded that if you want more power to the shaft then a wider coil is whats needed, but if you want more voltage out the a taller coil is needed.
Jason

tropes, Ive blown my last hall I have to order some more. I have two bung halls that stay on when power is connected. If I remember correctly those two were blown when I filled a cap past the 30 volts max recommended on the halls and accidently ran this voltage through the circuit, well the second time wasnt an accident. I believe they are fried beyond use now.

@ hoptoad, thanks for responding to my invite, I hope we can learn lots from your experience! Hopefully you can recommend some changes to our very simple circuits which will save our parts (and anger of our wives ;D). A shame to hear about your experience with the Adams polluter, do you think this  phenomenon  was due to the mechanical switching, something most of us in here no longer use?

Jase, thats awesome to hear your getting even lower running voltage, and charging bigger batteries! I am going to have to step up to keep up I think. I got my Bedini circuit running briefly (its playing up at the moment) and it was drawing 0.05 - 0.1 of an amp. Have not tried to charge anything yet. I need to start from scratch I think, build new wheel and new coils. Oh and I filled a 8000uf 80v cap to 40v off collector and emmiter of hall circuit. From your above post I assume that the cap will never fill to the level of voltage spikes, rather settle at an appropriate level dependant on cap sizing.

I hate running out of halls :'(

Oh and good to hear things are going well with treatment Tropes. By the way I found a more robust pnp for my hall -mjl21193. Its the pnp equivalent of the one Bedini recommends for his ssg. 10 bucks though.....ouch.

Yes Ren, it's good to be back. This hoptoad story intrigues me. I think it was you that originally used a mechanical switch on your motors. As was mentioned, one would think with recent catalytic technology this pollutant problem could be overcome. The main question however is: Was overunity achieved and documented. If so, this should be concidered as a great achievment.
Remember hoptoad; NO BULLSHIT ALLOWED!!!
BTW Ren, I just ordered 3 mjl21193 transistors from Futurlec Superstore.
Tropes

Quote from: tropes on September 23, 2007, 08:51:01 PM
Yes Ren, it's good to be back. This hoptoad story intrigues me. I think it was you that originally used a mechanical switch on your motors. As was mentioned, one would think with recent catalytic technology this pollutant problem could be overcome. The main question however is: Was overunity achieved and documented. If so, this should be concidered as a great achievment.
Remember hoptoad; NO BULLSHIT ALLOWED!!!
BTW Ren, I just ordered 3 mjl21193 transistors from Futurlec Superstore.
Tropes

Yes Tropes, IMHO OU was achieved, though the effect was very feeble, and yes Martin fully documented all his experiments as did I during the period from 1990 to 2001. In my opinion, however, the source of this OU effect was not only feeble and of not much practical use, but also caused many problems besides the production of poisonous fumes. When using mechanical switching in such circuits, the RF interference not only affects runtime measurements with digital equipment, but extends way beyond the immediate environment to affect TV and radio reception for quite a radial distance. Many of my own neighbours knew when I was conducting such experiments because their TV screens would be affected by constant interference lines across the entire screen.

For this reason alone, to continue using mechanical switching is an open invitation to be visited by Telecommunication authorities
who may be investigating complaints about such RF interference lodged by people who have a right to know why their equipment is being bombarded by RF that is not licensed for the bandwidths affected.

In my own early mechanical switch experiments I was using a copper star commutator and gold plated relay point contacts, and I never once achieved the same apparent OU effect that Martin achieved with his machine. The fact that the effect only occurred using mechanical swiching is what led me to theorise, that the effect was due to the sparking, and had nothing whatsoever to do with "gating ether" or "negentropic energy" via the regauging process of the coils and magnets as Robert Adams continually claimed.

It is interesting to note also, that Adams himself intimated on many occasions that the use of semiconductors would negate any self charging effect.

I personally abandoned mechanical switching in my own Adam's designs early in 1992, and continued research using solid state switching for the remainder of the period till 2001. But with semiconductor switching I have never seen OU effects manifest even once.

Thanks for the reply. Where are you now in your R&D? Do you have some videos or circuit diagrams to share?
As previously stated, my goal is to build a multi-piston Sotropa Motor  http://www.theowlnest.com/opm.html   Each pair of pistons is attracted and as they reach the core of the coil, just enough current is sent to the coil to block the attraction so that the next pair is attracted to its core. The voltage created by the attraction of these magnetic pistons is directed to a capacitor.
Sounds simple enough.
Tropes

Quote from: tropes on September 23, 2007, 10:37:52 PM
Thanks for the reply. Where are you now in your R&D? Do you have some videos or circuit diagrams to share?
As previously stated, my goal is to build a multi-piston Sotropa Motor  http://www.theowlnest.com/opm.html   Each pair of pistons is attracted and as they reach the core of the coil, just enough current is sent to the coil to block the attraction so that the next pair is attracted to its core. The voltage created by the attraction of these magnetic pistons is directed to a capacitor.
Sounds simple enough.
Tropes

Hi tropes. I pretty much abandoned R & D in 2001 but have kept up an active interest in the work of others ever since. I don't personally have any videos I can post, but as I have indicated I will soon try to get toghether some info regarding switching circuits and coils designs for posting in the not too distant future.

Cheers for now - gotta get back to earning a living!  :)

Hoptoad,
Sorry if this sounds.....mmm...rude. But I don't buy the story. RF interference can be nullified with a simple faraday cage and the noxious gases quelled with a catalytic process. I'm sure microwaves would give off a tremendous amount of RF interference if they were not properly shielded. Maybe it's just me, if I found overunity,  I would most certainly follow through with my discoveries. This sort of process would most certainly rewrite physics as we know it, if it can be proven. I'm very skeptical of overunity, however I in endeavor to find it one day through a purely scientific manner. This means that it will be easily reproducible. If you have any information concerning circuitry saving tactics, they are more then welcome. I myself have no problem with my circuits, but others here could use some knowledge other then mine to give a different perspective. It's always good to have a different view point or a different explanation of how you think things may be working.
Jason

Quote from: Nastrand2000 on September 24, 2007, 01:01:37 AM
Hoptoad,
Sorry if this sounds.....mmm...rude. But I don't buy the story. RF interference can be nullified with a simple faraday cage and the noxious gases quelled with a catalytic process. I'm sure microwaves would give off a tremendous amount of RF interference if they were not properly shielded. Maybe it's just me, if I found overunity,  I would most certainly follow through with my discoveries. This sort of process would most certainly rewrite physics as we know it, if it can be proven. I'm very skeptical of overunity, however I in endeavor to find it one day through a purely scientific manner. This means that it will be easily reproducible. If you have any information concerning circuitry saving tactics, they are more then welcome. I myself have no problem with my circuits, but others here could use some knowledge other then mine to give a different perspective. It's always good to have a different view point or a different explanation of how you think things may be working.
Jason

Yes you are correct that a Faraday cage will inhibit RF emissions to within the cage, but surrounding the apparatus with a cage makes it innaccessible to moving things around to change things, e.g. dwell angle of the points, duty cycle adjustments, add extra measuring devices, change coil distances etc, in real time while the machine is running. You have to essentially stop everything while you make your adjustments, then restart it again. I'm not a chemist and certainly didn't/don't have access to calalytic conversion processes or techniques. Especially when I lived 400 km from the nearest civilised outlet and worked on a shoe string budget. I'm also not interested in processes capable of producing as much negative impact as they might solve. Also, this form of apparent OU is not necessarily a physics mystery. As mentioned, I theorise (and it is only theory) that the feeble amount of additional energy was from atmospheric ignition. A bit like lighting a small match (a small amount of frictional energy expended to ignite the phosphorus) to light a piece of paper or another couple of matches with the flame it produces.
Buy it or not, it really doesn't matter to me. I'm not interested in financial gain or academic kudos for my own work, but I am interested in contributing one way or another to "more efficient" energy production. I have been close to death 3 times in last 7 years of my life, and I'm far more interested in living the rest of it happily. As my own mother used to say, "when it comes to arguing, would you rather be right, or would you rather be happy".

For the record, I also am extremely skeptical of overunity in terms of energy coming from unknown and inexplicable sources.
And as also I've mentioned before in another thread, "I am an active skeptic".
Cheers from hoptoad. - and keep questioning - it shows you are thinking!

You could simply put up tinfoil on the walls of the room that the motor is in, that would stop RF. The noxious fumes could easily be vented, and I'm sure that one motor is not going to hurt the environment (atleast for testing purposes). This is why I don't buy the story. You don't break 100 year old  theories and then walk away and say it was better (for the environment)  that we quit, thats preposterous.
Jason

I, like you, believe that contact points in a mechanical switch change mass back to energy. This is what causes these fumes, voltage, and RF interference. But there is no net gain in the process of these interactions due to the formula E=MC2.
Jason

We live in a 4 dimensional (3 dimensions crossed by time) reference point . The time dimension is what we are trying to pull energy from, and the only way to do that is by using resonance to our benefit. We actually inhabit an 11 dimensional reality (proven by string theory) possibly 13 (wait for better math) . The other dimensions we are not aware of because they are too small to perceive (but mathematically proven) , but this does not mean we cannot in someway gain from there existence.
Jason

OK, enough bullshitting about what might be. Back to work on real world projects. Hoptoad, If you have any advise about circuits it would be welcome. But please refrain from story telling, and let us pick your brain about what you figured out with solid state transistors, resistors, and diodes.  :)
Jason

Quote from: Nastrand2000 on September 24, 2007, 02:22:38 AM
You could simply put up tinfoil on the walls of the room that the motor is in, that would stop RF. The noxious fumes could easily be vented, and I'm sure that one motor is not going to hurt the environment (atleast for testing purposes). This is why I don't buy the story. You don't break 100 year old  theories and then walk away and say it was better (for the environment)  that we quit, thats preposterous.
Jason

I have not claimed in anything that I have posted so far that I or Martin have "proved" anything or broken any 100 year old theories. If you re-read my story carefully you will see that I mostly use words such as "apparent", "believed",  "convinced", and "appears" and "theory".

I mainly walked away from all this because after years of not seeing any replicable "appearance" of OU from another Adams motor, I felt that further pursuit of it,  was a wild goose chase, and also because ill health put a stop to this and many of my other passionate pursuits as well.

My purpose in posting that thread was simply to alert evryone to the downside of arcing systems of any kind. And you are right, enough of that.
For those who wish to continue experimenting, I say good on you. If nothing else you will gain a great insight into working motor designs.

I will post a few simple circuits soon. I can type quicker than I can draw on a computer.

Thank you. Then we will move on ,and forget the past. Now we can work towards the work that needs to be done.
Jason

good healthy debate, but Jase is right. We are here to improve and share our techniques. Hop toad let me ask you this. Are you skeptical about setups which apparaently charge more batteries than they consume?

Jase, you said you charged a 12 v off your setup. What was the circuit? Car battery? Were you just filling a cap from emmiter and collector and connecting the charge battery to the cap? How long to charge? And have you done any experiments with pulsing the power out of the cap into the charge battery or do you just let it flow?

@ tropes, good stuff with the mj's let me know how they go.

@ hoptoad. Perhaps you could offer a suggestion as to how tropes and myself could stop blowing halls. We use a simple hookup method which is posted in this thread I think, my diagrams are in the old thread. I have been told to install a diode between base and emmiter. How does this help/protect the circuit? Could we place a pot or resistor between the power and hall to limit current and offer tuneability?

I could not imagine an Aussie and an American peacefully resolving a conflict but you ( Jason and Hoptoad) came close. Good on you!!!
About 9 years ago I taught myself enough HTML to build some websites (4). I now have two and use one of them mainly for storage. I have a folder on my desktop marked "Circuits04" and it contains the circuits that have been uploaded to this forum. I will upload these to a site so they can be easily accessed and will continue to do this as we accumulate more.

BTW, I also draw "pitchers" http://www.theowlnest.com/looking.html
Peter

Hi All:
   The deal with the Hall device is you are hitting it with stray voltage spikes. From experience
they dont like that at all. I call them flaky myself. They do work quite well but... No you can use
a voltage regulator to power them with directly with a bypass cap on it. Also you can put a small
amount of resistance on the output leg to the transistor to limit the amount of current you can
draw from it. Read the tech sheet on them to see what the max current is and then figure out how
much resistance to use and still send the transistor into full turn on state.
   This is the reason I like to use mosfets for switching with a driver feeding them. Real fast turn on
times. Into the nanoseconds. Hope that helps you all out in the quest.

thaelin

Thanks for the info Thealin.
I uploaded some of the circuits to http://www.theowlnest.com/circuit.html
If you would like a circuit on this page upload a jpeg or gif to this thread or point out its location and I will put it on this circuit site.
Peter

Quote from: tropes on September 24, 2007, 11:21:39 AM
Thanks for the info Thealin.
I uploaded some of the circuits to http://www.theowlnest.com/circuit.html
If you would like a circuit on this page upload a jpeg or gif to this thread or point out its location and I will put it on this circuit site.
Peter

Greetings Tropes. Well its 1.30 am in the morning here in Victoria - Ozzie land. I'm about to turn in after a long day.
I've started up a simple site which is aimed specifically at beginners and addresses some minor points about your Hall problems.
Heres the link. - http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.htm

Hope the info is of some use to you.

Its just the beginning so be prepared to be disappointed. I'm gonna go have a quick hot milo before I turn in.
Cheers from hoptoad  :)

[/quote]
Greetings Tropes. Well its 1.30 am in the morning here in Victoria - Ozzie land. I'm about to turn in after a long day.
I've started up a simple site which is aimed specifically at beginners and addresses some minor points about your Hall problems.
Heres the link. - http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.htm

Hope the info is of some use to you.

Its just the beginning so be prepared to be disappointed. I'm gonna go have a quick hot milo before I turn in.
Cheers from hoptoad  :)
[/quote]
Hop
Check the link.No connection.
What's a "hot milo"?
Tropes

Quote from: tropes on September 24, 2007, 11:47:00 AM

Greetings Tropes. Well its 1.30 am in the morning here in Victoria - Ozzie land. I'm about to turn in after a long day.
I've started up a simple site which is aimed specifically at beginners and addresses some minor points about your Hall problems.
Heres the link. - http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.htm

Hope the info is of some use to you.

Its just the beginning so be prepared to be disappointed. I'm gonna go have a quick hot milo before I turn in.
Cheers from hoptoad  :)
[/quote]

Sorry Tropes the link should be  http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html
Hope this works
A hot milo is a sort of hot chocalate drink nade from malt yeast and some other exotic ingredients that really is a great night cap.

Cheers

Hop
Check the link.No connection.
What's a "hot milo"?
Tropes
[/quote]

Great job Toad. I've added a link to your page on the circuit site.
Tropes

Okay Toad, Ren and I are using a PNP transistor. The circuit you show uses an NPN. Is there a circuit using PNP transistor that would make the Hall switch less prone to damage?
Tropes

toad you are the man. Required reading for anyone using halls above. Oh yeah, go the milo. 5 parts milo to 1 part milk, its the only way :D

Tropes, my basic understanding is that a pnp and an npn are very similar, the only difference is the way the current flows, hence connections. In our pnp setup you would hook the firing coil up to the emmiter, as opposed to a npn where you would hook it up to the collector. Look at the link I posted in the other thread regarding pnp and npn, and anyone please correct me if I am wrong.

So hoptoad, could I place a variable resistor between + and the input to hall to limit current flow to hall? Will this have any effect on switching time/duration? By that I mean can I vary the resistance to the hall to vary the on/off time, much like you would do with a pick up coil (see Bedini setup)? Or would just a simple resistor be more suitable. My halls are 3-30 v rated. Thanks again champ.

Okay Champ. Could you upload a bitmap of a safer circuit with a PNP transistor.
Happy motoring
Tropes

tropes, effectively it should be the same as this one hoptoad has posted.

http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html

Note the resistor placed in diagrams between positive of battery and hall positive input. Dont change anything else on your current wiring schematic as of yet. By the way what are the voltage ratings of the hall your are using?

Hoptoad, am I correct in placing a diode between base and emmiter (allowing flow from base -> emmiter) in a pnp application? How can I figure out the best diode for this application? And do you need to protect the output from the hall? Thaelins post earlier on mentioned something about that although I could have misread him.

Quote from: Ren on September 24, 2007, 07:49:20 PM
toad you are the man. Required reading for anyone using halls above. Oh yeah, go the milo. 5 parts milo to 1 part milk, its the only way :D

Tropes, my basic understanding is that a pnp and an npn are very similar, the only difference is the way the current flows, hence connections. In our pnp setup you would hook the firing coil up to the emmiter, as opposed to a npn where you would hook it up to the collector. Look at the link I posted in the other thread regarding pnp and npn, and anyone please correct me if I am wrong.

So hoptoad, could I place a variable resistor between + and the input to hall to limit current flow to hall? Will this have any effect on switching time/duration? By that I mean can I vary the resistance to the hall to vary the on/off time, much like you would do with a pick up coil (see Bedini setup)? Or would just a simple resistor be more suitable. My halls are 3-30 v rated. Thanks again champ.

Hi Ren - I can't stay long, I've got some deadlines to meet re: work. Yes you can use a variable resistor. I would recommend putting a fixed resistor of say 100 - 200 ohms in series with a 1000 ohm Pot. That way, if you accidentally wind the pot back to 0 ohms, you will still have some fixed amount of protective resistance in the circuit. Also whether using a PNP or NPN arrangement, it is still recommended that you put your drive coil on the Collector side rather than the Emitter side, to fully isolate the control and driving current paths from each other. I only ever had easy access to a single version of Hall which was designed for NPN bias type connections, but if you can get a Hall with PNP bias characteristics, then essentialy as you've said, the circuit layout would be the same as I have shown on my site, but polarities are simply reversed.

Also putting a diode in reverse bias across the base to emitter junction will assist slightly in arresting reverse voltage spikes in the control circuit. Do not put the diode in forward bias mode across the junction, as this will then always limit the bias voltage to the base of the transistor to the value of the voltage drop across the diode. For Silicon diodes this will be .6 Volts and for Germanium it will be approx .4 V . Will address some more of these issues when I get the chance, and will continue to post on my site more sophisiticated (but still simple) versions of NPN switching circuits when I get the chance.

Cheers for now.  :)

Quote from: Ren on September 24, 2007, 08:50:47 PM
tropes, effectively it should be the same as this one hoptoad has posted.

http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html

Note the resistor placed in diagrams between positive of battery and hall positive input. Dont change anything else on your current wiring schematic as of yet. By the way what are the voltage ratings of the hall your are using?

Hoptoad, am I correct in placing a diode between base and emmiter (allowing flow from base -> emmiter) in a pnp application? How can I figure out the best diode for this application? And do you need to protect the output from the hall? Thaelins post earlier on mentioned something about that although I could have misread him.

Ren
To answer your question the supply voltage range of the unipolar Allegro 3240Ua Hall IC is 4.2-24 volts. I have used several other bipolar Hall IC's with similar ratings.
Now have you been to
http://www.theowlnest.com/circuit.html ?
What I have requested is to have a bitmap from Toad which can be uploaded to this site. All other information and instructions I appreciate and understand. I have also placed a 1N4007 diode between the collector and emitter of the transistor.
If a bitmap ( jpeg. or gif.) cannot be uploaded just say so and I will understand.
Peter

oh.. ok sorry :D. Yes that will be a handy page for us to refer too, as well as others who may come.

Thanks hoptoad for the info. Let me see if I get this straight. I can hookup my pnp circuit with the coil connected to the collector and then run the emmiter to the ground? It will work the same way but with the benefits of isolation and capture on the collector? Or should I just get a npn?

Im off for a small holiday guys, look forward to catching up in a few days.

Take care.

Hi all:
   Also take notice that an NPN transistor turns on with a positive going pulse, PNP uses a negative pulse.

thaelin

Please clarify Thaelin? If a pickup coil is being used this would come into effect, but does this also efffect hall circuits? A pnp will fire when it receives a negative impulse from the hall? Is this in reference to waveforms/ scopes?

Quote from: Thaelin on September 25, 2007, 09:48:22 AM
Hi all:
   Also take notice that an NPN transistor turns on with a positive going pulse, PNP uses a negative pulse.
thaelin

Thaelin
Perhaps you could upload or point out where I could find a circuit using PNP transistor that would make the Hall switch less prone to damage?
Tropes

tropes, our original hookup works. The link provided by toad shows us how to isolate the hall circuit from the firing circuit. Think of the trigger on a gun. Our setup has the trigger in the barrel everytime we fire! Toads diagrams show by hooking up the top of the coil to the collector (instead of emitter) isolates the trigger from the barrel so to speak.

I just hooked up the hall to my pnp with the coil connected to the collector  and emitter connected to ground. It works good, but I am no longer seeing the high voltage spikes on my multimeter when I connect it to the collector and emmiter. Voltage just sits at about 10v. Maybe I need to install diode as per Nastrands diagram for collecting to a cap. So many things to learn.... ??? :D

Quote from: Ren on September 25, 2007, 06:29:29 PM
tropes, our original hookup works. The link provided by toad shows us how to isolate the hall circuit from the firing circuit. Think of the trigger on a gun. Our setup has the trigger in the barrel everytime we fire! Toads diagrams show by hooking up the top of the coil to the collector (instead of emitter) isolates the trigger from the barrel so to speak.

I just hooked up the hall to my pnp with the coil connected to the collector  and emitter connected to ground. It works good, but I am no longer seeing the high voltage spikes on my multimeter when I connect it to the collector and emmiter. Voltage just sits at about 10v. Maybe I need to install diode as per Nastrands diagram for collecting to a cap. So many things to learn.... ??? :D

Greetings one and all
I'll have to be quick - very pressed for time due to work commitments. the spikes should still be there, but now instead of seeing them across your collector to emitter junction, they will appear across the coil from the +ve supply rail to the base of the coil (NPN arrangement). I will try to add some more info to my web page tonight if I'm not too tired.

Cheers for now and happy motoring - the Toad who Hops  :) ;)

Gidday everyone, just a quick message to let you know I've posted a bit more info re Hall controlled circuits on my web site.

http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html

Cheers to all from the Toad who Hops

Quote from: hoptoad on September 26, 2007, 05:52:19 AM
Gidday everyone, just a quick message to let you know I've posted a bit more info re Hall controlled circuits on my web site.
http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html

Cheers to all from the Toad who Hops

Thanks Toad. Great pages.
1.) If you have two magnets attracted to each other and a coil in between them, as the magnets come towards each other, is there a current induced in the coil?

2.)Will you be dealing with BEMF vs. "flyback current"?

3.) Would you upload your images as jpeg's?

Tropes

Quote from: tropes on September 26, 2007, 06:46:30 AM

Quote from: hoptoad on September 26, 2007, 05:52:19 AM
Gidday everyone, just a quick message to let you know I've posted a bit more info re Hall controlled circuits on my web site.
http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html

Cheers to all from the Toad who Hops

Thanks Toad. Great pages.
1.) If you have two magnets attracted to each other and a coil in between them, as the magnets come towards each other, is there a current induced in the coil?

2.)Will you be dealing with BEMF vs. "flyback current"?

3.) Would you upload your images as jpeg's?

Tropes

Hi Tropes, in answer to your questions.

1. Yes, but only while the magnets are moving. Either in toward the coils or out away from the coils. When movement ceases, so will the induced current. By the way current will only arise if there is a load on the coils. But with or without a load, there will be an induced voltage
2. Flyback current is just another expression for CEMF, but there are also circuits which redirect the current in a way which can best be described as FlyForward. They both are derived from CEMP. And I will address both Flyback and Flyforward on my web site soon.
3. I can upload my images as jpegs, but I'm using swf to preserve as much clarity in the drawings as possible. If you would prefer, and don't mind sending me a real email address through posting here, I can post the images to you directly for you to do as you wish with them.
I don't really want to expose my real email address openly on the forum, but will send it freely to those whom I deem genuine in their desire to experiment for themselves and learn what they will.

Cheers  :)

Quote from: hoptoad on September 26, 2007, 05:52:19 AM


Hi Tropes, in answer to your questions.

1. Yes, but only while the coils are moving. Either in toward the coils or out away from the coils. When movement cease, so will the induced current. By the way current will only arise if there is a load on the coils. But with or without a load, there will be an induced voltage
2. Flyback current is just another expression for BEMF, but there are also circuits which redirect the current in a way which can best be described as FlyForward. They both are derived from BEMP. And I will address both Flyback and Flyforward on my web site soon.
3. I can upload my images as jpegs, but I'm using swf to preserve as much clarity in the drawings as possible. If you would prefer, and don't mind sending me a real email address through posting here, I can post the images to you directly for you to do as you wish with them.
I don't really want to expose my real email address openly on the forum, but will send it freely to those whom I deem genuine in their desire to experiment for themselves and learn what they will.

Cheers  :)

1. You must mean " but only when the magnets are moving". The coil is stationary. Because of the attraction, they are moving towards the coil.
2. If a coil is placed around these magnets as the are drawn towards each other there is also a current induced. see  http://www.theowlnest.com/opm.html

Hi again Tropes,

"2. If a coil is placed around these magnets as the are drawn towards each other there is also a current induced. see  http://www.theowlnest.com/opm.html"

Yes, but the field of the magnet over which each coil is wound will tend to override the changing fields between them and reduce significantly the voltage and/or current produced by the effect of changing magnetic fields between the 2 moving magnets

Quote from: hoptoad on September 26, 2007, 07:37:03 AM
Hi again Tropes,

"2. If a coil is placed around these magnets as the are drawn towards each other there is also a current induced. see  http://www.theowlnest.com/opm.html"

Yes, but the field of the magnet over which each coil is wound will tend to override the changing fields between them and reduce significantly the voltage and/or current produced by the effect of changing magnetic fields between the 2 moving magnets

Do you mean there is less current induced in the coil between the two magnets?
Tropes

Quote from: tropes on September 26, 2007, 07:48:09 AM

Quote from: hoptoad on September 26, 2007, 07:37:03 AM
Hi again Tropes,

"2. If a coil is placed around these magnets as the are drawn towards each other there is also a current induced. see  http://www.theowlnest.com/opm.html"

Yes, but the field of the magnet over which each coil is wound will tend to override the changing fields between them and reduce significantly the voltage and/or current produced by the effect of changing magnetic fields between the 2 moving magnets

Do you mean there is less current induced in the coil between the two magnets?
Tropes

No, I mean there will be less current induced in the coils around the magnets, than if the coils were on an iron core, and a magnet approached those coils, as is the case with the coil between the magnets.
However I could be completely wrong on this occasion, as I must admit, I've never actually tried it.
Please tell me if I'm wrong. It will add to my knowledge.

Cheers  ??? :)

Quote from: hoptoad on September 26, 2007, 07:37:03 AM

No, I mean there will be less current induced in the coils around the magnets, than if the coils were on an iron core, and a magnet approached those coils, as is the case with the coil between the magnets.
However I could be completely wrong on this occasion, as I must admit, I've never actually tried it.
Please tell me if I'm wrong. It will add to my knowledge.

Cheers  ??? :)

Toad
I'm sure that is true but of no consequence in this case. Since the pistons are moving towards each other with no external input, it is just a source of "free voltage".
Tropes

Hey guys,
I'm happy to see that Hoptoad is giving you guys a hand. I won't be around as much, classes just started and I'll be pretty busy. I'll probably just be following the posts for awhile, and try to answer some questions here and there. I trust Hoptoad can answer most of them though.
Jason

Also to answer a previous question about charging batteries. It has been my experience that charging them straight from the collector and the emitter works better then dropping cap voltage back into the battery via a switch of some sort. I have tried dropping the cap into batteries with 4 switches, 3 switches, 2 switches, and 1 switch. None of them seemed to be more beneficial then straight input. And all the switches I created where fully adjustable to 360 degrees of movement. I would let these switches run for a minimum of 24 hours and a max or 36 hours. I may have missed something by not letting them run longer.
Jason.

One thing I have found beneficial is putting a cap in parallel with the battery for charging purposes. But this negates the possible advantage of high voltage spikes desulfating the battery and renewing it. Tho I must admit that all of my processes have not desulfated the battery one bit, and my battery is still just a piece of shit that won't hold a charge. As far as the amp hours of the battery, I have no Idea. Which makes this experiment more or less null and void. I will have to buy a new battery and test it, and that will take some time. As far as caps are concerned, I can charge a (1.5 F ,24 volt (and this is a huge cap)) cap to 17.86 with a 5 volt input. But with a smaller cap it is much more as seen in the videos. What we must focus on is cap size(capacitance) vs. voltage spike maximum vs. input voltage and RPM. Hope this isn't to confusing.
Jason 

Jason
I am awaiting a comment on my source of "free voltage" but in the mean time I must tell you I purchased two capacitors on eBay: 1600uF, 60 vdc. They are like pissing into a bucket with a big hole in the bottom. I charge them up to 5 volts from the coils wrapped around the pistons and as soon as the motor is turned off the voltage drops like a stone. Is this normal?
Tropes

only if there is a short somewhere
Jason

Then it must be inside the cap because I have removed the wires from the coil. Unless it is my 12 dollar multimeter.

   When I turn off my motors, I must manually discharge the caps or it will stay for long periods of time. The caps are suspect.  I use caps rated for 500v and some motors will go to 475 so get better caps. Old computer power supplies will have one or two rated at 400v usually. I use a standard house light 150watt to discharge them with.

thaelin

Quote from: Thaelin on September 27, 2007, 06:22:41 AM
   When I turn off my motors, I must manually discharge the caps or it will stay for long periods of time. The caps are suspect.  I use caps rated for 500v and some motors will go to 475 so get better caps. Old computer power supplies will have one or two rated at 400v usually. I use a standard house light 150watt to discharge them with.

thaelin

Thaelin
I think the cap size is okay for my application but maybe Tropes got fucked on eBay!!!
Tropes

Greetings pulse motor enthusiasts. I've added another circuit to page 2 and have posted some more info on new page 3.

http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html

If page 3 link doesn't appear, just hit refresh on your browser.

Cheers from the Toad who Hops  :)

Well,
Not much to look at, but this is the new coil running at 5 volts and 25 - 30 milliamp. Recharging a 12 volt car battery. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDOm7BWC0dY&mode=user&search=
Jason

Lead acid batteries in pulse motor test, just gotta luv em, especially those whopping great car batteries that can bounce back voltage by themselves due to chemical reactions such as errosion slowly taking place inside the cells.

Question, if it is possible to charge 1 battery from another using a pulse motor, why is it you cannot take that output charge feed it to a capacitor via a rectifier and then run the pulse motor from that?, effectively using only one battery that is being constantly charged while at the same time it's running the pulse motor.?

I believe I already know what your answer(s) will be  ;)

Well actually you can, but I'm not claiming overunity. But apparently you didn't read this thread, or you would know that I'm powering this motor from a variable power supply and not from another battery. This thread is just to help others get a functional pulse motor going.
Jason

Also, my motors only capture back about 50% of the expended energy used to drive them without costing any torque to the shaft.
Jason

Well I took Runningbare's challenge of running the motor and capacitor hookup he described. I discharged the car battery to 1.75 volts and started the motor. The cap refilling the battery stays at around 13+ volts with a zenor diode inline. the battery doesn't lose voltage and the motor continues to run. I do think that the battery chemistry will keep it running for days if not weeks. With a new battery, I'm pretty sure I could run my motor for years without recapture of back pulse. However, this was one of my dead batteries from a car. It will only keep a charge of 8 volts, no matter what I do to try and recharge it. Thats why I figured it would be a great battery to test. I guess we will see how long it will run.

PS
If not recharging the battery, the cap will top out at 43 volts.

Jason

here is the video with this test setup. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqEuYfpiT1A&mode=user&search=
Jason

Just to second guess any questions, this won't run on caps alone. It does take the battery chemistry to keep it going. So no free energy here. But the mA gauge is reading true. It is from the power input added to the recaptured amperage.
Jason

one last vid for the night, it seems to be running at the same input voltage of 1.75 at zero to .0015 amps from the battery. The chargeback has seemed to stop any more drainage, but this could be due to the lead acid chemistry going on in the battery. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYIYevBajsc&mode=user&search=
Jason

My Newman motor draws around 15ma with no load, my 12 volt 18ah golf cart battery will run the motor for near 41 days before the voltage starts to fall, but the battery will discharge in this time, heck knows how long a pulse motor would run drawing 0.15amp from a car battery!

I even tried charging another two 12 volt 18 ah batteries wired in series, they started off at a total of 18 volts, it rose to around 19.5 volts but by the morning it was back down to 18.3 volts.

Quote from: Nastrand2000 on September 29, 2007, 03:04:44 AM
one last vid for the night, it seems to be running at the same input voltage of 1.75 at zero to .015 amps from the battery. The chargeback has seemed to stop any more drainage, but this could be due to the lead acid chemistry going on in the battery. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYIYevBajsc&mode=user&search=
Jason

Quote from: Nastrand2000 on September 29, 2007, 01:56:02 AM
... this won't run on caps alone. It does take the battery chemistry to keep it going. So no free energy here. But the mA gauge is reading true. It is from the power input added to the recaptured amperage.
Jason

Jason
Your answers are so predictable to people like Runningbare. Personally, I think your anwsers are scientifically based but you will never win arguments with anyone who already knows the answer before asking the question. So please, let's stick to the original plan of sharing information about pulse motor circuits.
Tropes

Sorry Peter,
I had a bit too much wine and beer last night. :-\ I even found another thread where I was giving omnibus a truckload of shit and I don't remember it at all. Oh well. I agree we need to stay on track.
Jason

Well at least one good thing came from last nights merriments, the motor will now run on 1.5 volts 10 milliamps which is .015 watts or 15 milliwatts. Its charging a cap to 16 volts dropping into a battery through a zener diode.
Jason   

Quote from: Nastrand2000 on September 29, 2007, 12:54:06 PM
Sorry Peter,
I had a bit too much wine and beer last night. :-\ I even found another thread where I was giving omnibus a truckload of shit and I don't remember it at all. Oh well. I agree we need to stay on track.
Jason

Hey, no problem Jason. Have you had a chance to peruse Toad's contribution (page 3.) at
http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html
At this point ( page 3.) the electronics is over my head but I'm working on understanding.
Tropes

I do replications myself, including Bedini pulse motor, Newman motor, MEG and Stan Meyers HHO.
I do these things because I do have an understanding of physics and want to see myself what all the fuss is about.

I'm not here trying to prevent people continueing their replications, I think its great, but I do have more than a basic understanding of BEMF and lead acid batteries, yes the chemical reactions do play a part, very much so in pulse motor replication, but if you really want to test this, try lead acid 1 AH batteries, keep swapping them over after each charge, one as the power the other as the battery being charged, I guaruntee you they will discharge as at a normal rate depending on current being drawn, trust me, it would take a month to test with car batteries NOT a couple of days.

Any chemical battery will exhibit bounce back voltage due to chemical reaction taking place in the cells, but eventually they will discharge.

Quote from: tropes on September 29, 2007, 08:55:09 AM

Quote from: Nastrand2000 on September 29, 2007, 01:56:02 AM
... this won't run on caps alone. It does take the battery chemistry to keep it going. So no free energy here. But the mA gauge is reading true. It is from the power input added to the recaptured amperage.
Jason

Jason
Your answers are so predictable to people like Runningbare. Personally, I think your anwsers are scientifically based but you will never win arguments with anyone who already knows the answer before asking the question. So please, let's stick to the original plan of sharing information about pulse motor circuits.
Tropes

Quote from: Nastrand2000 on September 29, 2007, 01:15:32 PM
Well at least one good thing came from last nights merriments, the motor will now run on 1.5 volts 10 milliamps which is .015 watts or 15 milliwatts. Its charging a cap to 16 volts dropping into a battery through a zener diode.
Jason  

Okay Jason, do you physically switch the 16 volts from the cap to the battery or does this voltage just flow from cap to battery?
Runningbare, would you mind uploading a few photos or circuit diagrams of your work. None of us expect you to contribute the way Toad and Jason have but it is our goal to compile a source of information from experienced builders.
Tropes

Here is my question:

I despirately want to build a pulse motor but when I look at schematics, as I am not an electrical engineer, am finding some explanations too difficult to read.  I am trying to build my own electromagnet with 19 gauge wire-any recommendations on amount of windings using a bolt?

secondly i will be using a reed switch to the coil but need to know does it hook up to th negative or positive before the coil or does it matter?

I want to collect back emf  from the coil and send to a capacitor,do I have to have two windings on the coil to do this or if not can i just simply hook two more clips to both sides of the coil to collect? Will I need diodes in place and if so any recommended size or type and wherein the circuit?
Re 555 timer switch-where in the circuit would this go if needed? once again, so many different pulse motors out there and everyone seems to be doing something a bit different. I really like what  is bing done with the MK5 as well as with John Aarons and the Jazz motor but John is taking back emf from the coil where everyone else seems to be using secondary coils to take it. As well, John is using a relay switch after the reed switch before the coil due to the amperage issue with the reed switch,

Once again, any drawings that can show a circuit without using all of the electronic coding (perhaps it could read(capacitor with the specs on the capacitor and if there is a really or a diode or anything else in the circuit, could the diagram list in in english with the specs and maybe an explanation of what it is there for.  I feel  like a kindergarten kid.  My God-go into an electronics store and say you need a diode or a resistor or a reed switch etc and they ask which one-to find out that there are 50 different types size etc. and you realize that you don't have a clue and the videos or schematics online don't really tell me. I am playing in a world that is unfamiliar territory but I really want to play. can anyone direct me for pulse motor 101 please?? Thank You

Hey Green, welcome and hopefully you will get some help. Firstly, the  main links, http://www.theowlnest.com/circuit.html
and Hoptoad's page include some basic stuff. As well, http://www.simplemotor.com/  is a good starting point for basic pulse motors.
Don't try to understand everything at once - one thing at a time.
Tropes

Quote from: Nastrand2000 on September 29, 2007, 01:15:32 PM
Well at least one good thing came from last nights merriments, the motor will now run on 1.5 volts 10 milliamps which is .015 watts or 15 milliwatts. Its charging a cap to 16 volts dropping into a battery through a zener diode.
Jason   

Hi Jason,

I assume you are aware of the fact that your series zener diode CONSUMES (dissipates) energy and this energy heats the zener so cannot appear in the output (to charge the battery further)?  Dissipated power in the zener is its zener voltage times the current flowing through it.

Sorry to chime in but I thought mentioning this, even if you may as well be aware of this.

Gyula

I see I need to make that tutorial video we've been talking about, let me see if I can set one up today.
Jsaon

Peter,
The zener diode allows the voltage to rise 12 volts above the battery(or whaterver you are charging)  then It lets the current flow. Zener diodes are used for voltage regulation. I am using a 12 volt zener, but you can find them at different voltages.
Jason

Quote from: tropes on September 29, 2007, 01:30:58 PM
Runningbare, would you mind uploading a few photos or circuit diagrams of your work. None of us expect you to contribute the way Toad and Jason have but it is our goal to compile a source of information from experienced builders.
Tropes

Sure...

Replication of Stan Meyers WFC
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8QASQgYarRU

Newman motor replication
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kgjTShgptjU

And my work with magbetic levitation using bifilar coils
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AelopbRoCQE

Cannot show the bedini pulse motor because you can see the parts I ripped from it for use in my levitation experiments ;)

You will also find plenty of other videos I did concerning these replications.

ETA: btw, the circuits are as of the Bedini school boy motor and the Newman motor which you will find online which are the ones I used, the levitation circuit is mostly my own, when my website is back up I will post the circuit.

Nice vids, I really like the levitating coil with the led.
Jason

Quote from: gyulasun on September 29, 2007, 02:02:10 PM
Hi Jason,

I assume you are aware of the fact that your series zener diode CONSUMES (dissipates) energy and this energy heats the zener so cannot appear in the output (to charge the battery further)?  Dissipated power in the zener is its zener voltage times the current flowing through it.

Sorry to chime in but I thought mentioning this, even if you may as well be aware of this.
Gyula

Good to hear from you Gyula. I actually posted one of your circuits on http://www.theowlnest.com/circuit.html
How about posting a circuit which efficiently directs voltage from coil to cap to battery without use of a zener diode.
Peter

Quote from: RunningBare on September 29, 2007, 02:25:02 PM
[ETA: btw, the circuits are as of the Bedini school boy motor and the Newman motor which you will find online which are the ones I used, the levitation circuit is mostly my own, when my website is back up I will post the circuit.

Could you explain the differences between the Stan Meyer motor and the others. The circuits may be similar but the physical makeup is different ( ring magnet rotor; wire wound stator).
Peter

The energy is so little right now that I don't think the zener is eating to much of it. But thank you for the heads up, I was not aware of the heating issue. However, I would assume that the zener works like a diode and a resistor mixed.
Jason

Well here is the video to build a pulse motor, tell me if I need to make another. I don't think that it is very clear, but I need some input. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ok9ueCDiP4&mode=user&search=
Jason

was that clear enough..if not I will make another.
Jason

Hi everybody, back from holidays! You've all been busy!.

Nastrand, good work mate, the tutorial, the testing etc. I found the vid pretty clear. Good to see some alterations and test charging happening.  I built some circuits while I was away and have done some more probing. I would like to have a go at your setup Jase, minus the north/south arangement, just using first winding for pickup and second for firing.

@ hoptoad, thanks again for your excellent pages of juicy info, although I must admit the inclusion of mosfets etc on the third page is way out of my league for now! I wired up the pnp to your specs and found it to run, although it ran slower and amp draw sat at a constant level as it sped up. Perhaps I have wired it up wrong. I have gone back to the old config with the coil connected to the emitter, but I will try the hall hookup to a npn and see if I can improve it. On this old config the collector and emmiter read 200v spikes as speed increases, but I do not get anywhere near that when I insert a diode on both or even one, in any direction. I look forward to studying your info over the next few days.

@ thinkgreen. Welcome! All I can stay is start small and grasp the basics, then move forward. No question is too dumb here, I only started about 3 months ago so I'll still have plenty of dumb ones to ask! Have a look at the other thread in Pulse motors and watch some of the vids. I am capturing voltage on the secondaries by using a hall circuit to fire the first winding and simply send the secondaries to a bridge. Where you go from there is up to you.

@ Running bare. I am a little unsure about your comments on lead acid battery charging. Are you saying that you can reacharge a battery from another (like bedini) constantly swapping run/charge but they will eventually go flat, thus making it pointless? Please correct me if this is not what you mean.


@ tropes. I am charging an alkaline 9 volt (non rechargeable) off the secondaries. I send the secondaries to a bridge rectifier and then send the + and - to a cap. The lines continue through the cap to a switch and then to the battery. When the switch is off the cap will fill (330uf 100v) to around 60 volts, but as soon as the switch is closed the voltage drops to the capacity of the battery being charged. It then rises quite rapidly, slowing down after a minute or so to gradually tick over. Its taken an hour or so but I have charged a 9 v (was at 7.22v) up to full capacity. (I will check to see if voltage drops back overnight). I'll draw you a little diagram if you like. This is just the voltage off one secondary too, not off the collector or emitter.

Look forward to everyones comments.

Quote from: Nastrand2000 on September 29, 2007, 03:51:19 PM
The energy is so little right now that I don't think the zener is eating to much of it. But thank you for the heads up, I was not aware of the heating issue. However, I would assume that the zener works like a diode and a resistor mixed.
Jason

Hi Jason,

Yes, ok.  I agree with your thoughts.  And in the meantime, after reading your Reply #146 it was clear you wished to charge up the cap at first to a certain voltage level,  then dump some charge from it into a battery through the Zener diode.  I was not fully in the picture as to your aim but the dissipation in the Zener still holds. Of course this loss is low as long as the output power need to charge a battery is really  small and loss will increase proportionally with battery charging current need.
To minimize this loss,  and this answers Peter's asking too,  it is possible to sense the voltage level in the capacitor and compare it to a reference voltage level with the help of a comparator  and this latter would fire a switch to dump charge from the cap into a battery (or a load). This way the discharge of the capacitor can be controlled more efficiently, especially at increasing load current demands where Zener diodes surely would dissipate increasingly.  The full circuit  needed to accomplish this needs power to operate of course,  so considering its usage should be judged both by the power level involved and the extra components cost. 
I am aware of such a circuit designed by Jean-Michel Cour in his TuneCharger devices (patented, see WO2005091462 or FR2868218). He runs a Yahoo mail group on TuneCharger ( http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/TuneCharger/ )   
I remember he made a schematics for experimenters too which is in his Files section if you are interested to see,  I cannot cross-post it here without his permission.

Gyula

Quote from: Ren on September 30, 2007, 05:46:11 AM

@ hoptoad, thanks again for your excellent pages of juicy info, although I must admit the inclusion of mosfets etc on the third page is way out of my league for now! I wired up the pnp to your specs and found it to run, although it ran slower and amp draw sat at a constant level as it sped up. Perhaps I have wired it up wrong. I have gone back to the old config with the coil connected to the emitter, but I will try the hall hookup to a npn and see if I can improve it. On this old config the collector and emmiter read 200v spikes as speed increases, but I do not get anywhere near that when I insert a diode on both or even one, in any direction. I look forward to studying your info over the next few days.

Hi Ren,

If your motor is hooked up in the configuration I recommended, but you are not getting the results you expected, e.g. running slower, fairly high
constant current, etc, you may require a higher resistor value to ensure that your transistor is actually turning off completely.

One simple test you can do to see if your transistor is turning off properly, is to:

1. Connect your circuit.
2. Put a voltmeter across the collector and emitter. (doesn't matter whether its NPN or PNP or which leg you have your coil connected to.)
3. Stop the rotor from turning by hand, then manually turn it until the switching magnet is in front of the Hall IC to turn the Hall IC on.
4. Measure the voltage across the collector and emitter. - If the Hall IC is in the "on" mode, then you should only see .6 Volts across the 
   collector to emitter junction.
5. Now turn the rotor so that the switching magnet is away from the Hall IC and the Hall IC should now be in "off" mode.
6. Measure the voltage across the collector and emitter again - If the transistor is turning off properly, you should now see almost the full supply
   voltage minus a small drop due to the presence of the coil. If the voltage is not nearly that of the supply or very close to the supply voltage, then
   your transistor is not turning off completely. - Remedy put a variable resistor anywhere from 1K - 5K in series with the existing resistor and
   repeat steps 3+4 to test for "turn on" and 5 +6 to test for "turn off". Vary the pot until the transistor turns off. - You will know it's off because the voltage will read nearly that of the supply.

Hope this helps you to sort it out. Also, when reading your circuits without any load on the output with a meter and seeing very high voltage spikes
which seem to disappear when you connect the output to a load; this is normal. These very high spikes produced by collapsing EMF in the unloaded output state are what is commonly known as "floating voltage".
As the load is connected (capacitor or resistor or battery) it will absorb the very high voltage spikes. What voltage remains is commensurate with the voltage attainable for a given current flow into a given load resistance/capacitance.  :)

champion. Thanks for simple tips. Yes I have seen the voltage at collector and emmiter. It reads 12.1 v or around abouts. I will check to see if it drops during firing. I have some more simple diagrams that  I will post of my setup soon.

Hi again Ren,

I just changed the test steps a little bit due to minor error in statement.

Should have said : - repeat steps 3+4 to test for "turn on" and 5 + 6 to test for "turn off".

I have added the simple test statements to page 2 of my site, and have also added an extra diagram to page 3 to make it a little simpler to understand circuit Fig 7 : - http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html

Cheers from the Toad who Hops

Quote from: hoptoad on October 01, 2007, 11:55:04 PM
Hi again Ren,

I just changed the test steps a little bit due to minor error in statement.

Should have said : - repeat steps 3+4 to test for "turn on" and 5 + 6 to test for "turn off".

Also, if your transistor is turning off OK but you are still getting a fairly high constant current draw, then still try including a pot of 1k-5k in series with R1. If your coil has a really high number of windings, then its impedance is probably higher than the base circuit resistance during run time, and the constant current you are measuring is most likely the base to emitter junction resistance via R1. In another words your controlling base current is higher then your drive current.

I have added the simple test statements to page 2 of my site, and have also added an extra diagram to page 3 to make it a little simpler to understand circuit Fig 7 : - http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html

Cheers from the Toad who Hops

Well after two continuous days of allowing the motor to run on 1.5 volts, trying to charge a 9 volt battery through a zener diode, I found little to no gain in voltage. I had been charging a 50 volt cap that would fill to around 12 volts above the battery voltage and there it would sit. So I conclude that Gyula was correct about the use of the zener ( that it would consume the excess energy). After removing just the zener about 4 hour ago the voltage has risen from 7.5 to 8 volts. I will let it run for another 24 hours with this setup (unless my wife decides to turn the experiment off without my knowledge) and see what the voltage will climb to. The motor is drawing .005 amp times 1.5 volts = .0075 watts.
Jason

After letting the experiment run for 22 hours, the battery only climbed to 8.15 volts and it reached that after 4 hours into the experiment. So I think I need to change my charging tactics. I believe if I use a capacitor of a certain micro farad and charge it to a given level, I should be able to graph how fast it gets to that level in a given amount of time. This should help to quantify my findings, and give better answers to the questions you all might have.
Jason

If you guys would like some parameters set for the following experiments, please set them forth. For instance; wattage input, voltage input, amperage input, and distance the magnet is from the coil. Any other parameters are welcome. This thread is for you guys, also if you would like me to set up a different motor (say one conforming to your own, ferrite or neo mags) I would be happy to.
Jason

well I finally got rid of having to recharge 9 volt batteries for volt meters. I wired one of the meters to a 9 volt transformer, so no more misreads from battery insufficiencies. I plan to do this for the rest of the meters in parallel with the transformer. Then I  won't have to worry about meter incompetencies due to a low battery. The transformer is 1 amp max, and 10 meters would never even reach that current flow.
Jason

nice jase.

I just finished testing my setup. With 4 coils and two halls (2 coils per hall) I am filling a 8000uf 80v cap to  over 40 v and still climbing. I unfortunately cooked one of my transistors just as I was setting up the camera, found the fault and I'll get a new transistor soon.

Jase when you charge alkaline (non rechargeable) 9v, do you charge to around 11 v, so that when it is disconnected the voltage settles around 9? Have you done any tests to see if the battery drains similar to a new 9v under load? I am going to do some tests at the old paintball field I used to work at. They have buckets of dead nine volts and I'll charge them and see how they perform in the loaders against fresh batteries. Should be interesting

Oh jase by the way, Id love to see you add another coil to your setup, doesnt even have to be pulsed, can just be a pickup maybe? Id be interested to see what sort of voltage comes off the secondaries. Also, maybe try same test with iron or tie wire core coil and air coil, I would like to see if there is much difference between. I understand though if you dont, that coil better be bolted to the floor with those neos!

Hey Ren,
I do charge the 9 volts to around 11 or 12 volts and they do settle around 9 volts or so. I have found that their life is significantly shorter then a new 9 volt however. I would think that you could probably get one good charge on them. Mine have been recharged countless times, so this probably is also a factor with mine. I will see what I do with the different coil setups, probably this weekend, I have a o chem test today.
Jason

Hey Ren,
I hooked up one of the coils as a generator coil and ran my motor at 5 volts .05 amps. The coil generates about 15+ volts into a cap 35mF cap 370 volt rating. With a 25 volt  3300 mF cap, It charges it too 14.5 volts. This is while I'm charging a 9 volt battery, I can't go without a load on this setup. The spikes are too high (like 300 to 400), I don't want to inadvertently fry something  like my power supply. It cost me around a 170$.
Jason

I'm also thinking about building my own batteries to better understand the reaction going on in them.
Jason

I think I'm about done in this thread with pulse motor recapture. I built this motor to drive a whimhurst machine and see what I can do with 40000 volts and I now believe that I can give it the torque that is  necessary to drive it. I believe that the plasma of the arc holds the key to our energy issues. I will be around if anyone needs more input.
Jason

Quote from: Nastrand2000 on October 04, 2007, 08:35:34 PM
Hey Ren,
I hooked up one of the coils as a generator coil and ran my motor at 5 volts .05 amps. The coil generates about 15+ volts into a cap 35mF cap 370 volt rating. With a 25 volt  3300 mF cap, It charges it too 14.5 volts. This is while I'm charging a 9 volt battery, I can't go without a load on this setup. The spikes are too high (like 300 to 400), I don't want to inadvertently fry something  like my power supply. It cost me around a 170$.
Jason

Interesting. How many turns on the generator coil? Air coil? Hook it up to a bridge and see how many volts it produces....

I gotta start winding a large coil, I think thats the only thing holding my design back right now. I just cant scrape the funds together and renovate the house at the same time! Oh well, patience is a virtue.. ::)

Jase, good luck with your classes/exams, hope we still see you from time to time in here.

Ren,
The coil I was using for the gen coil is the coil used to drive this motor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIOdl7H6qzA&eurl=http%3A%2F%2F7%2Egmodules%2Ecom%2Fig%2Fifr%3Furl%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Egoogle%2Ecom%2Fig%2Fmodules%2Fyoutube%5Fvideos%2Exml%26nocache%3D0%26up%5Fprefs%5Fversion%3D
It is an air coil run through a full wave bridge rectifier. I don't how many turns, however it is bifilar wound 24 gauge and 2 inch in diameter by 3/4 inch thick. Hope that helps.
Jason

After further study I have found some interesting phenomena with stacked gen coils and driver coils (stacked together resonating together with alternating magnets passing) that may be of some service to those looking at the field of coil resonance vs. output.
Jason

This might further my research into these stupid pulse motors :P god only knows how much time I've spent on them. Very interesting to say the least. A video soon of this setup.
Jason

I just tried running my setup at 12 volts, it's too much for the transistor ( you could stack them to help....but you lose efficiency by doing that).
Jason

I've seen suggestions that say having multiple windings firing on a separate transistor each allows the capture of even more high voltage. The fact that more amps are drained is moot compared to the higher output.

Did you blow your transistor? Do you mean "stack" them like the pictures toad supplied on page 3, Darlington pair I think it was called?

I just put one coil on top of the other, however I think that if I made a "bowl" coil and set the driving coil inside it I can break unity.
Jason

By bowl do you mean winding a coil (bifilar or such) and then winding a third (or multiple) ONTOP of the first 2?

On the pickup, bifilar I assume, did you hook up the two in series, or did you just measure one of the windings?

here is the new setup http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W2jPXLmMzQ
Jason

by bowl, I mean wrapping a coil around a hollow space shaped like a bowl which will be a single wind.
Jason

Some really strange things have been happening while working with this setup. I will update a little later if I can figure out their cause. This is the type of accidental discoveries we all dream of. Don't worry about patent BS, This will be open sourced.
Jason

The nearest I can place this phenomena is the splatter coil by konzen but it reaches much further. An interesting effect that I think the "bowl" recapture can take advantage of. Sort of like a copper faraday cage. Move those electrons.
Jason

This is awesome news Jase I hope it works out and you get the results you're hoping for. Test it every way you know how!

Also, I'd like to see you run the motor off one battery and charge another battery the same size. This would be a good test to eliminate the power unit you run  it off. Have you tried charging Ni-Cads or Ni-Mh before?

I need to get a few test batteries to start some charge vs. discharge test results.
Jason

For all those out there looking to replicate this setup, I encourage you  endeavor to learn a better understanding of dynamic flow of electrons (virtual particle flux (within our time frame), particles that exist within our dimension and outside of it at the same time). Further more, one should look at wave functions( of virtual particles)  correlating to theses wave functions to fully realize the full potential of these motors/generators on everyday occurrences in our everyday appliances.
Jason

Quote from: Nastrand2000 on October 09, 2007, 10:53:38 PM
For all those out there looking to replicate this setup, I encourage you  endeavor to learn a better understanding of dynamic flow of electrons (virtual particle flux (within our time frame), particles that exist within our dimension and outside of it at the same time). Further more, one should look at wave functions( of virtual particles)  correlating to theses wave functions to fully realize the full potential of these motors/generators on everyday occurrences in our everyday appliances.
Jason

Hi Jason
I've been gone for awhile so save me the time of looking at all the posts I've missed and give me a starting point to educate myself in "dynamic flow of electrons". A good website or tutorial would be good.
Tropes

Welcome back tropes. I dont know if this is related to Nastrands post at all but I found this page to be of particular interest.

http://www.icehouse.net/john1/index11.html

Some interesting stuff there on Negative resistors and the inner workings of batteries. Hows the motor coming along?

Hi guys,

I've been reading in the background for about a month now and now would like to play with you guys too.

One good site to read up on would be:  http://www.cheniere.org/books/part4/s02.htm  just click the next at the bottom to keep reading.

I also now have 4 Pieces of 2" x 1" NdFeB Neodymium N50 Disc Magnet and would like to build the Jason Motor/Generator to start that river flow of electrons.

I live in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Thank you all for your great work :D

awesome. Lets get it flowin! I'll have some test results to post in the next few days.

@ gotoluc,
The easy way to replicate this motor is to start with the rotor (where the magnets will be placed). I suggest a 2 inch cube of wood. It must be a perfect 2 inch diameter. Center drill the wood to fit a 5/16 allthread shaft to fit into skate bearings. After that you will need at least two 1/4 pound of 24 or higher gauge wire spools. BIfialar wind them for your driving and collecting coils. You will also need several switching diodes, a tip3055 or (2n3055 transistor...but the tip3055 works better) to fire the coil. My resistance is set at around 2k ohms. So you will need a 1.5k ohm resistor with a potentiometer inline with the 1.5k ohm resistor to find the "sweet spot" of your coil. Hope this helps and good luck.
Jason

a 3 inch block would be fine, but you will need to use a 2 inch paddle bit to drill into it 1/2 inch at dead center. I was lucky and found a 2 inch rotor from a harvested motor.
Jason

Thank you for the building details Jason.

I'm new to pulse motors but I have no problems with the information you gave me, however I do have a question. Would it still qualify or work as a pulse motor if I use a 1/2" clear acrylic disk as rotor and cut 2" holes for the magnets and have my coil on the side (horizontal like a Muller generator)? and if it is ok, do you know if it would have any drawbacks to your model?

Thanks

Luc

I have found with this setup that the muller style motor is not helpful in this setup. Possibly with the magnets close enough together it may work. My muller setup was with a 12 inch diameter rotor with 4 magnets.
Jason

I believe the close proximity of the north and south poles allows Jase to attract and repell 2 magnets from one pulse simeltaneously. Correct me if Im wrong Jase. Theres no reason why a muller style setup shouldnt work, it would be probably easier to attach the magnets to the rotor too. Although.... you would need to have the magnets close to each other to benefit on attraction and repulsion and this might also be difficult with such a large and strong magnet, affixing it anyways. If they were counter sunk into rotor it would be safer I think.

Also guys. Found this schematic on www, though it might be of interest. Perhaps toad can offer some comments on this particular setup.

Ren,
I believe you are correct in the assessment of my motor. One pulse working on two magnets at the same time. I also agree that the muller style should work with the magnets close enough together. Also counter sinking them will be safer, but harder to remove them if you want to use the magnets in another experiment later.
Jason

@gotoluc,
One thing I can say for sure is DO NOT try and play with these magnets. They are far stronger then you can imagine. Unless you are familiar with strong neo's of substantial size, treat them as you would a bomb. Always wear THICK gloves while working with them and never let them come together.
Jason

Thanks for the good advice Jason and Ren. I had read in your earlier posts to be careful with the magnets and I will take much caution. N50's with 210 lbs. pulling force...aooch.

I'll give some thought to the rotor style and let you guys know which way I'll go.

Jason, anything wet on your discovery?

Luc

Im considering pouring a casting of my next rotor. I saw some fibreglass casting resin used to display some coins, it looked like perspex and was as smooth and flat as glass. I talked to the guy at the store and funnily enough he said it was made ON a sheet of glass. Position magnets (using a jig if necesssary) on a sheet of glass with circular moulding. Pour over clear resin solution and place another sheet on top or pour half and wait to dry before pouring other half. A shaft can be affixed securely during this process too, only drawback is inability to reuse magnets.

alright here tis guys. Pulse motor v4. Updated schematics and test results to follow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR4M2akcYnk

Let me know what you think

@ Ren, she looks great mate. I see you have alot of thought in it. I wish you all the best in your tests.

Thanks for the video and keeps us updated.

Luc

Looks good Ren. I'm trying to find an 80v 8000uF cap to test my motor output with yours. This should help keep most of the math out at this point, and help us in unifying our motor research. I have been very busy lately and have not had a chance to work on my motor  :-\ . Hopefully I will find some time in the next few weeks (Damn school).
Jason

lol, you gotta hate time management! Even at work my brain is ticking (pulsing) over schematics, Id spend all day at the work bench if I could!
I got my cap from Jaycar.com.au. Its not listed on their site but you could order it over the net quite easily. Its under their motor start capacitors. I think it was about 15 bucks.

On another note I completed some charge tests.

Run Batt. 12v 330cca sealed lead acid. Charge Batt. 12v 440cca sealed lead acid.

Charge B discharged to 10.24 via 12 v globe.

Straight Charge. (This means negative from Cap to negative of charge, positive to positive).

started 9:45am                          Finish 11:00 am  Amp draw nearly doubles when connected directly to battery from cap, amps @ 2.5.

R-----12.94v                                R-----12.49v
C-----10.24v                                C-----12.60v  -------------Drained @ 0.29amps for two hours back to 10.25v

Second Charge, Bedini style (negative from cap to negative of RUN batt, positive of RUN batt to negative of CHARGE batt).

started 9:50am                           Finish 13:20pm  Amps dont change when connected this way, Amps set at 1.5 for this test.

R-----12.45v                                R------12.26v
C-----10.14v                                C------12.50v -------------Drained @ 0.29amps for one hour and twenty minutes back to 10.19v



Some interesting results. I only realized today that the fluid levels in the charge battery are very low, so I guess I cant take these results as testimony to the motors ability. I did learn some interesting things however in the way in which it is connected.

Straight charge the cap stays about .10v above the battery voltage and rises as the batt rises. This method showed better results despite its significant amp draw.

Bedini style the cap stays @ 24.7/24.8, I am assuming this is a combination of both batterys since they are linked in series (sort of).It is a slower charge but less draw on the Primary.

A good start, however for more scientific results I will need to purchase two brand new batterys of same brand and amp hours.

Hi

Has any one got any suggestions for my motor?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jFMsaxpzbQQ

Thanks

Paul

Hi Paul,

I believe you are running a Bedini style circuit? Post up a schematic and perhaps we can offer some suggestions. Tropes has a page of our schematics and Hoptoad has offered his knowledge on circuits here http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html.

I have heard Bedini suggests making your connections as short as possible, especially around your transistor. Which transistor are you using? I believe the MJL21194 (?) is superior to the 2n3055, but it could be worth experimenting on the 2n too. Cheaper anyways.  Post up your test results too.

Ren,
Here is a site you might want to check out http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/category.php?bid=14&PHPSESSID=200710041021221488690818
Jason

@kubikop,
What is the resistance to your motor (inline with your feed coil). Your motor is running 3000 to 4000 rpm at top speed. I'm guessing that your motor is taking about 1.5 amps to build up and dropping to 1 amp once up to speed. Some further measurements would be very helpful, for us to give some advise. I would suggest an amp meter reading inline with battery to the coil.
Jason

The generator coil on my last setup seem to be working well, however I believe that induce more voltage using TWO rotors on either side. Thats what I am attempting. Also I am replicating this thread's permanent magnet motor. http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3482.0/topicseen.html plus school, plus family.....sorry spread a bit thin.  :P
Jason

@nostrand2000

The power coil is 3 Ohms and the trigger coil is 50 Ohms

It runs at 0.7 Amps from the go get.

Ill post a video of the Amps running, How do you know its 3000 to 4000 RPM?

Is there an equation I can use?

Kubikop

@Ren

Please find attached the Circuit I am using.

Its a bedin with a generation coil hooked up to Charging battery not as in the pdf, I also left out the bulb.

The power coil is 3 Ohms and the Trigger coil is 50 Ohms and the motor runs at 11v (ish) at 0.70 Amps

Hope this helps.

kubikop

@Ren & Nostrand2000

I think this might explain it better

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GBz7TMcj3Jo

Thanks for the Help

Kubikop

interesting. A slight variation but it works for you? Are the batteries slowly discharging? Or is there an overall net gain?. Have you tried to wire your generator coil differently? I have four coils and I originally wired them separately through four bridges linking the positive to the negative of the bridges, like you would place a battery in series. I then wired each coil to each other and only ran them through one bridge and found slightly better results. Have a look at the adams patent in Tropes page http://www.theowlnest.com/adamspat.jpg particulary the generator coils. You should be able to wind each winding in series with the other to go through only one bridge.

You may already have tried this or maybe you get better results through two.

Excellent schematic by the way.

Oh and also try hooking up your second coil, first winding to collector/power etc using the trigger winding on the first coil to fire the winding on the second coil leaving the second winding on the second coil free for bridge collection. Bit confusing, I'll draw a schematic if it makes it easier.

Hi guys
Initially, we set up a page where we could share our circuits and drawings with all those building Pulse Motors. This is http://www.theowlnest.com/circuit.html
Next Hoptoad set up an excellent tutorial at http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html
As new guys like Kubikop join the forum they can also contribute by uploading bitmaps (jpegs and gifs) and I will put them on the Circuit page.
Peter

@ Ren

Ill have a go at that but I think It may slow the motor down, can not hurt to try though.

Im glad you like the circuit feel free to post my schematic elsewhere if you want, a credit and a link to you tube couldnt hurt though ;-)

I have not had enough coils to link in series yet, the postal strike in england has stopped my wire getting to me but the idea is sound.

I have been told you need at least 2v above the battery voltage to get correct charge. Is this true?

Paul

@ Ren

Ill have a go at that but I think It may slow the motor down, can not hurt to try though.

Im glad you like the circuit feel free to post my schematic elsewhere if you want, a credit and a link to you tube couldnt hurt though ;-)

I have not had enough coils to link in series yet, the postal strike in england has stopped my wire getting to me but the idea is sound.

I have been told you need at least 2v above the battery voltage to get correct charge. Is this true?

Paul

slowing the rotation of the motor isn't always a bad thing...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4BWJagMV6Q .....
The rotation speed of your motor was a guess by me, however I have worked with these motors for a long time. I would say go to ebay and buy a tach or a Oscilloscope to measure the speed. An Oscilloscope is well worth the money. My current guess on your rotation speed is 3150.
Jason

Hi Tropes

Please feel free to upload my circuit to you circuits page.

I call it the O.P. Circuit

Paul

One thing to remember is.....Amperage is what we are after not voltage. Most of my motors show voltage recovery into caps. But constant amperage at a give voltage is what we are after. With my motors, I can create 40000 volts DC. But it is not very helpful.
Jason

@nostrand2000

Wow that is running slow but well.

I have bought a scope but am waiting for the post to start moving here in england.

It will be interesting to confirm your guestimete... ;-)

Paul

do you understand how to measure your rpm with the scope. I didn't know how when I got my first scope. Measure your pulse width vs. your millisecond readings then multiply by 1000 then divide by 4 for your setup.
Jason

The coils are the IMPORTANT part of this setup. And how we use the energy within those coils (and around them) is what we should all focus on. Of course this is after getting a working pulse motor to run.
Jason

It is true that conventional charging of batteries requires current and voltage higher than that of the battery being charged.

I am not so sure current is what we are looking for, although it is needed in some form I guess. Most batteries these days however are best charged over a lengthy period @ 0.10 their maximum amperage capacity. i.e. 12v 2000mah would need 200mah over 10 hours at over 12v by conventional methods. There are fast charge batteries that might be worth trying, like cartain Ni-Cads (often 1:1 charge ratios.)

I am interested in these specifics, but I think that people like Bedini are not using current to primarily charge their batteries. My understanding is that a high voltage but low current discharge into the charge battery is what charges the batteries. I believe that the batteries must be conditioned by charging and discharging repeatedly to gain the full effects of this phenom.

alot of current causes excessive heating in the battery, leading to warping of the plates and general damage over time eventually killing it.

Hi all, finally got a moment to hop in for a quick chat.
Sorry Ren, but current is everything. it is "The Specific" of it all when you are talking about battery systems. Voltage gives great little shocks to the unsuspecting, and traces out wonderful patterns on an oscilliscope screen, but delivers zero "OU" on its own. As I've said before on this forum, "I'm an active skeptic". Thats because I have studied CEMF for a long time. But I still say, keep experimenting, I want to be proven wrong! (LOL)

And speaking of active, I had enough time to prattle off a little bit about coil cores on my website.

http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html

As per usual there's still more unsaid than said - more to come when time allows.

Happy motoring pulsers!
The Toad who Hops  :D

Hey Hoptoad. Some great insight as usual. I suspect the configuration is more important than the alloy used in the wall anchor sheath. I will try a soft iron pipe with holes drilled at the center (bloch wall). Have you heard the Phil Woods theory of "4 poles"? Ok, if you wind a typical coil, and have a center core to strengthen the field at each end,,, when the coil is energized and lets say end "B" is a North pole, the "outer circumference" of the coil at the "same end" is a South pole. This is an opposite polarity and equal at the "A" end of the coil. YOU HAVE 4 POLES.
Not what I learned in science class!!!
Tropes

@ Ren

I do not think that it is voltage or current that charges the batteries, just my thoughts.

I do think that what ever is increasing the energy in the battery is a phenomenon we need to understand.  Like you say the conditioning maybe the route to how they are tuned to except the extra energy from what we do not know (yet).

I am doing some tests at the moment but they take so long....

here is the first third....

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lG2FKhtd39c

Paul

@ the toad. You are right of course. Conventional science says current IS everything. I have just been reading alot of interesting stuff lately that has steered me in the direction that current may not be all it is cracked up to be. Of course I have no legs to stand on, having no scientific proof of my own. Like you say prove me wrong! lol its a bit like the apprentice dueling the ninja master at this stage! By the way toad I am really thankful for all your input, I cannot seem to find your info on coils at the moment?


Paul, Im interested to hear your theories, and I also have some more schematic ideas for you that I will post up.

Perhaps try sticking to the original bedini setup? Heres one with two coils, well actually four coils, (single wind) two to trigger and two to fire.
Join this group here if your interested in studying the monopole motor and learning some simple efficiency tests. Schematic here is from this site.

Keep tickin

Quote from: Ren on October 18, 2007, 06:06:24 PM
I cannot seem to find your info on coils at the moment?

Greetings Ren. The Index page only had really minor changes so you are probably getting the old page cached,
try revisiting and then Refresh the page. If that doesn't work heres the new page 4 direct.
I hope you find it interesting. Ive actually added alittle bit more info since I posted it last night.

http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/page4.html

Cheers all!  From the Toad who Hops :)

Quote from: tropes on October 18, 2007, 10:02:59 AM
Hey Hoptoad. Some great insight as usual. I suspect the configuration is more important than the alloy used in the wall anchor sheath. I will try a soft iron pipe with holes drilled at the center (bloch wall). Have you heard the Phil Woods theory of "4 poles"? Ok, if you wind a typical coil, and have a center core to strengthen the field at each end,,, when the coil is energized and lets say end "B" is a North pole, the "outer circumference" of the coil at the "same end" is a South pole. This is an opposite polarity and equal at the "A" end of the coil. YOU HAVE 4 POLES.
Not what I learned in science class!!!
Tropes

Hi Tropes,

I hope all's well with you. I had heard of this theory back in the early 80's and have tried it out myself during my pulse motor experimentation era.
I don't recall who it was associated with, I just remember reading it somewhere.
Alas, what works in theory often has a strange way of  working but doing also something completely unexpected in reality. When used as a generator/motor coil in front of a single magnet pole, it yielded extremely poor results in my own experiments. The duel cores inductances are actually self cancelling. The reason will take a page of description and diagrams to explain. Whew ! more work!  But I must say that it is worth an explanation. I will try to come back to this subject after I've finished covering a little more ground on pulse motor design. I've still got a lot to say in that area - probably too much! (LOL)

P.S. - I can't overstate the positive aspects of the "Alloy" nature of the sheaths. When comparing like for like with ordinary soft iron which I did in later experiments, it became very obvious that the huge gain in voltage and current availability was due to the nature of the core material. (The shape still matters - see updates on my site) But dont stress over this, because I am sure that it is not some Exotic once only fluke alloy, but is widely available and at a cheap enough price even at retail, that you can save yourself the time and trouble of repeating all the experiments with soft iron tubing and just go out and buy them pre-made. Still, experimenting is a pathway to understanding!

:D
Cheers from the Toad who Hops.

Awesome stuff mate. I love it. I was reading about the late Bill Muller recently and he noticed the benefits of amorphous metals in coil constructions. Have you seen the gemini motor by chance? It runs on a similar principal to what you explained at the bottom I believe. Check it out here.

http://www.geminielectricmotor.com/

As always mate, a pleasure to read and learn from you.

Quote from: Ren on October 19, 2007, 05:35:44 AM
Awesome stuff mate. I love it. I was reading about the late Bill Muller recently and he noticed the benefits of amorphous metals in coil constructions. Have you seen the gemini motor by chance? It runs on a similar principal to what you explained at the bottom I believe. Check it out here.

http://www.geminielectricmotor.com/

As always mate, a pleasure to read and learn from you.

Gidday Ren, I hope I'm not leading you up the garden path, but I will eventually lead you somewhere??  :D

It's good to see you asking comparative questions and making comparative statements.

Bill Muller had an inkling or two about magnetic dynamism. It is sad he has passed on. His designs utilising odd/even core to magnet ratio, highlights an important issue surround magnetic drag. That is the "cogging effect" which takes place in pulse motors with iron cores. This "cogging effect" can become so pronounced at high speeds, that a standing vibratory wave takes over, and threatens to shake everything out of its otherwise stable behaviour. At certain frequencies cogging is nasty! The trouble is that those frequencies vary with the diameter, number of magnets, and moment of inertia and speed of the rotor.
At speeds from 5000 rpm to speeds of 10000 rpm, a smoothly rotating rotor can quickly become a monster!

The Gemini Motor is a very well designed "Closed Magnetic System". It is a classic KISS and lets do it this way, its better!
And it is better than most motors on the market. So I wouldnt want to change it. It works very, very well!

Open systems are a "different kettle of fish". Not necessarily better one. But they exhibit a particular phenomenom not present in Closed Systems. This true of "ALL OPEN MAGNETIC CIRCUIT MOTOR SYSTEMS".  Will explain  ....    soon ........... ;)
They are worth pursuing for the revelations they have to offer in their own merit.

@nostrand2000

am I doing the frequency tests correctly?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC-9gm0DFGY

Thanks

Paul

Quote from: hoptoad on October 19, 2007, 01:36:47 AM


Hi Tropes,

I hope all's well with you. I had heard of this theory back in the early 80's and have tried it out myself during my pulse motor experimentation era.
I don't recall who it was associated with, I just remember reading it somewhere.
Alas, what works in theory often has a strange way of  working but doing also something completely unexpected in reality. When used as a generator/motor coil in front of a single magnet pole, it yielded extremely poor results in my own experiments. The duel cores inductances are actually self cancelling. The reason will take a page of description and diagrams to explain. Whew ! more work!  But I must say that it is worth an explanation. I will try to come back to this subject after I've finished covering a little more ground on pulse motor design. I've still got a lot to say in that area - probably too much! (LOL)

P.S. - I can't overstate the positive aspects of the "Alloy" nature of the sheaths. When comparing like for like with ordinary soft iron which I did in later experiments, it became very obvious that the huge gain in voltage and current availability was due to the nature of the core material. (The shape still matters - see updates on my site) But dont stress over this, because I am sure that it is not some Exotic once only fluke alloy, but is widely available and at a cheap enough price even at retail, that you can save yourself the time and trouble of repeating all the experiments with soft iron tubing and just go out and buy them pre-made. Still, experimenting is a pathway to understanding!

:D
Cheers from the Toad who Hops.

Hi Hoptoad
The cancer cells have been removed so all is getting better with me thanks. I'm sure the alloy makes a difference but the reason I cannot use the complete outer sheath is I am trying to shorten the coil on my new Sotropa Motor so there is a less distance and greater attraction by the opposing pistons. I would need a sheath 3/8" Diameter by 7/8" length. Both ends of the coil are used to attract and repel the magnetic pistons. However, I will check out the wall anchors at the hardware stores.
I have upgraded http://www.theowlnest.com/circuit.html so anyone wishing to have a circuit posted should upload a jpeg or gif to this forum and I will post it on this page.
Anyone new here should read http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html
Tropes

Good work tropes and toad.

@ tropes. These bolts are sometimes reffered to as dynabolts I believe. The slots in them are designed to spread apart when a bolt/nut is driven into the center. Excellent for fixing say the frame of a house/wall to concrete/brick. They do come in a multitude of sizes over here, but if your unable to find any I'd imagine a similar material could suffice? You could make cuts similar to the bolts in another piece of tubing and obtain similar results I think.

@ Toad. How well does a Bedini style core stack up against these? I'd imagine a bunch of welding rods or tie wire would perform similarly to a laminated core? Fascinating reading by the way, you should have been a teacher!

Go and check out page 5 if you havent already people. Three thumbs up (well two thumbs and a toe/toad) ! lol

Quote from: Ren on October 20, 2007, 11:10:18 PM

@ Toad. How well does a Bedini style core stack up against these? I'd imagine a bunch of welding rods or tie wire would perform similarly to a laminated core? Fascinating reading by the way, you should have been a teacher!

Hi Ren, I'm glad I'm getting my experience though on this subject. I really want some of you to try what shall be revealed in good time!
I don't want what I am saying to remain in the realm of just my own observations and experiments. Replication would be great. I'm sorry its taking me a while to get to "the anomoly" I keep hinting about.

But writing this stuff up in a way which is readable and understandable to anyone who has only a very minor understanding of electronics is actually quite a challenge. Please be patient as I let things unfold. Robert Adams was onto something very valuable. But he, and many others after him, have jumped to the wrong conclusions, because I think, it is easy to do so. That old expression of "can't see the forest for the trees" is often very apt.

Bedini motors are just another form of pulse controlled motor running in an open magnetic configuration. As such the principles I have outlined for coil cores applies as much to a "Bedini" as it does to an "Adams". The only real difference with bedini motors is that that usually use a trigger coil instead of external semi-conductor sensors to do the switching. As such, they provide a more rounded semi-sinusoidal switching pulse than a square one.

Yes, " a bunch of welding rods or tie wire would perform similarly to a laminated core?"
But a hollow core made from the same material as those welding rods would be better. In fact, place a number of welding rods in between two hollow plastic cylinders to form a ring which looks like a hollow tube. You will get as much, if not more, out of the coil as you would if the whole inner circle was full of rods as well. But you will have significantly less drag.

P.S
I've just finished  and updated page 5 - will move onto bi-filar coils and working models next.

cheers from the Toad who Hops

Please check out my comment on your youtube video Paul. I'm sorry for giving out the wrong info. There is a great tutorial for reading RPM from an oscilloscope and I will need to find it. If you have a Hz measurement on your multimeter, then we won't need it. Sorry for the  inaccurate information.
Jason

Yo guys, built another pulse motor per Jase's specs, but monopole. Built out of left over scraps and hard drive bearings. Man it gets up to speed! Is appearing to charge 9v's very well. 2n3055 collecting off collector and returning back to emitter. Awesome little beast. Uses tiny nail for core. Will post some vids and pics soon.!!

@ Nostrand2000

Hi Jason

Never mind about the frequency thing I have got it right now thats what counts.

Could you recommend and good scope books?

Thanks

Paul

Paul try this link out.

http://www.tek.com/Measurement/App_Notes/XYZs/03W_8605_2.pdf

@ Ren

Just the job, Thanks Ill Run through the pages

Thanks

Quote from: Ren on October 21, 2007, 09:45:06 PM
Built out of left over scraps and hard drive bearings. Man it gets up to speed!

Built like a true experimenter ! LOL
Good on ya Ren.

For anyone interested the saga continues - page 6 is online

http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html

More to follow! KneeDeep from the Toad who Hops!  :D

Cheers all  :)

I was hoping (or hopping?) that bi or not to bi was...you know..... about females ::) ??? LOL.

Awesome stuff toadie, looking forward to immersing myself within this next page of juicy info.

Oh, and about the hard drive, it seems to be charging these lead acid car batteries quite well. Amazing considering the coil is tiny, well the whole thing is tiny! I think I'll pull the big motor apart and make a small speed demon with four coils. ! I'll have a go at wiring up according to figure 19 on the new page, it looks very promising!

Quote from: Ren on October 23, 2007, 04:15:55 AM
Oh, and about the hard drive, it seems to be charging these lead acid car batteries quite well. Amazing considering the coil is tiny, well the whole thing is tiny! I think I'll pull the big motor apart and make a small speed demon with four coils. ! I'll have a go at wiring up according to figure 19 on the new page, it looks very promising!

Hi Ren.
Sounds like your having fun. Transfer those electrons - yeh  8)
Just a little word about safety. I don't want to read about you losing an eye., :(, If you decide to build some little "guts" machines, with relatively small diameter rotors and low impedance coils and neos, then you should consider taking the time to make planar rotors if you're not already using them.

With low impedance coils, speeds can be astounding! The centrifigal force on your magnets in a radial layout makes them prone to flying off the rotor at very high speeds if they have the slightest weakness in their binding method. They can be lethal as a bullet. I will talk about this issue at some stage in conjunction with optical switching control (far more accurate).

Cheers all, happy pulsing, motorists  :D

Hi Hoptoad
Thanks for the info on bifilar coils. Is it practical to use a bifilar coil for both pulsing and collecting as in Cuicuit # 3 at http://www.theowlnest.com/circuit.html ? I have not yet decided how to set up my Sotropa motor to most efficiently collect "flyback voltage" or induced EMF and would like more information before making that decision.
Tropes

I'ts been awhile since I posted but..,
Pulse motor cores do make a difference and here's one to try...
Go ahead and use the standard bolts but cut the head off and adjust it in and out for desired cogging.
My setup is a 20" aluminum disk wheel with 8- 2 X 1 X 1/2" N50 neos all N facing out (well, it could be South). Coils are 20 AWG bifilar wound in the Adams fashiion but absolutely no twists. Took me several days to wind each coil.
single winding resistance is 5.2 ohms and I combine the two for a total of 10.4 ohms. Running two of these coils at 120 and 240 degrees with my smaller (28 awg) coils in the appropriately timed position of 0 degrees ( actually just off for timing) for my trigger. Also wound one 7lb spool of 18 Awg for my pickup coil.
Might be nothing but this setup has been running for 4 hrs and my battery voltage has been very stable at 12.69 V. Pulling a little over 100 ma and using the Bedini SSG single transistor ckt to capture my BEMF.
I'll let this run overnight...

Carl

Thanks for the safety tips hoptoad. The neos are aryldited (?) between two hard drive platters. They seem pretty safe but maybe I'll put a little shield up and a bit more glue. What do you mean by planar rotors? The next model I might have the coils ontop of the rotor instead of around the sides. I think this would make securing the magnets easier, or more secure. I might embedd them in resin too.

Ive seen some good ones made out of old reel to reels and computer fans too, maybe thats the way to go in the future.

This way the coils will be closer to the magnets face, more uniform.

@ casman, welcome. Good to meet another experimenter. Good luck with your tests.

@Ren  Thanks

Got in this morning and found that after 14 hrs my voltage is now at 12.62 V.  7/100ths of a volt drop is not too bad but I remember reading on the Bedini site that it is common to see these fluctuations during the P.M. hours. So I'll let it run and wind my second pickup coil.
I am open for suggestions on my trigger coils and adjusting the pulse width down as much as possible. I know the Hall's will give me that control but my gut says the trigger coil is the way to go.

Welcome to the group of builders casman. Any input is helpful in our quest to understand the electrodynamics of our setups. Reading from different motors as well as circuit setups will help us focus on our final goal.
Jason

have you tried putting variable resistors on the trigger coils? I just put a small 12 v bulb on my trigger winding inline with a variable resistor and my amp draw dropped by more than half. Its funny I thought... because you light up this little bulb and you think that it would take more amps, but it actually drops. Speed is almost the same too. And the variable resistor allows me to adjust the speed (and the intensity of the light too.)

You probably have already done all of this and found the optimum resistance for your trigger winding, Id love to see some schematics and/or pics.

By the way, are you collecting bemf back into another charge battery using bedini circuit? Or does this setup just run off the one battery? What are the specs of the battery?

I really have to chime in here and tell my short tale of horror.   :o

   I built a 4" rotor with 1/2 X 1 cylynder neos  grade 35. The lost magnet is somewhere downd inside the wall. I had to do a hasty fix for the hole it left. Motor was about 3 feet from the wall when it let go. Sure glad it went that way and not at me or towards the sliding door.
Until I am sure of a setup, I have a scatter shield around it of 5/8" plywood.

thaelin

Quote from: hoptoad on October 23, 2007, 06:58:59 AM

Quote from: Ren on October 23, 2007, 04:15:55 AM
Oh, and about the hard drive, it seems to be charging these lead acid car batteries quite well. Amazing considering the coil is tiny, well the whole thing is tiny! I think I'll pull the big motor apart and make a small speed demon with four coils. ! I'll have a go at wiring up according to figure 19 on the new page, it looks very promising!

Hi Ren.
Sounds like your having fun. Transfer those electrons - yeh  8)
Just a little word about safety. I don't want to read about you losing an eye., :(, If you decide to build some little "guts" machines, with relatively small diameter rotors and low impedance coils and neos, then you should consider taking the time to make planar rotors if you're not already using them.

With low impedance coils, speeds can be astounding! The centrifigal force on your magnets in a radial layout makes them prone to flying off the rotor at very high speeds if they have the slightest weakness in their binding method. They can be lethal as a bullet. I will talk about this issue at some stage in conjunction with optical switching control (far more accurate).

Cheers all, happy pulsing, motorists  :D

lol. Well glad it wasnt you mate. I think its time to erect the bullet proof fence around my setup...

@ NASTRAND200   Appreciate that

Keep forgeting to bring my camera to the shop but will soon. Since my setup is easily disassembled and reworked I tend to do just that for refinement purposes. Good news bad news.., 100 ma draw and battery loss from 12.69 to 12.61 in twenty four hours--good! Deep cycle marine battery--bad!
Really aggravates me that my bearings are knocking. Soooo.., disassembled again and will now try doubling up on the neos to make then 2" X 1" X 1 " and refashion the magnet mounts. Must contemplate better bearings. Other than that the next iteration will use three of my super drive coils @ 0, 90 and 180 degrees in series (one winding each with second winding used for recapture/charge) and two pickup coils (one 7 lb spool of 18 AWG wound on a 3/8" bolt and one 7 lb 20 AWG wound the same and placed at 240 and 320 degrees). Measuring with a handheld digital single trace scope and analog amp meter. That's what today will be and I'll keep you posted. I built many different window motors when Mikes motor hit these pages but like everyone else who attempted and failed to replicate, have moved on to the next stage.
@ REN Thanks mate, I'll try the light trick and yes I have several wirewound variable resistors I've been using in the trigger ckt. Also, in the Bedini SSG ckt he has a diode from base to emitter which effects that ckt in a major way. Any reason why it has to be there???
Will rebuild today and promise picks tomorrow or saturday.

I've found inumerable combinations that fail but it only spurs me to continue the quest.

Hoptoad
Page 7 http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html has loads of information (Great!) but without a Question and Answer period I'm afraid your audience will soon become the elite few.
Example: Re: Fig.20 "Group B has a definite advantage... because it will receive current from both directions...".
Question: What is creating current in both directions?
This may seem simple but most of this group is beginners (like me) and need help understanding even the simple concepts.
Thanks for the great info.
Tropes

 8)Awesome toad.... more learning for me.

@ tropes. I could be wrong but I believe Toad is talking about back emf and normal current flow. Every time you send current down a wire there is a reactive current that pushes the other way. Toads diagrams show various ways to harness this normally overlooked current and use it to charge another battery or cycle it back into the system. Once again, wait for someone to confirm this as it is only my understanding. Dont feel bad, I struggle to come to grips with most of what is written too, if it wasnt for the pictures I'd learn very little!!! lol


@casman. I believe the diode you refer to is there to allow current to flow only one way. (duh you say.) As for why I am unsure, but in a number of attempts I have not been able to make the circuit run unless it is there. Check out toadies page here http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html (page 2) for a more technical explaination.

Quote from: Ren on October 25, 2007, 06:03:49 PM
@ tropes. I could be wrong but I believe Toad is talking about back emf and normal current flow. Every time you send current down a wire there is a reactive current that pushes the other way. Toads diagrams show various ways to harness this normally overlooked current and use it to charge another battery or cycle it back into the system. Once again, wait for someone to confirm this as it is only my understanding. Dont feel bad, I struggle to come to grips with most of what is written too, if it wasnt for the pictures I'd learn very little!!! lol

Ren
I could be wrong but I believe Toad was talking about BEMF and the induced current caused by the magnet approaching the coil. You could be correct but my point is that the answer should come from the author.
Tropes

Quote from: tropes on October 25, 2007, 06:16:48 PM

Quote from: Ren on October 25, 2007, 06:03:49 PM
@ tropes. I could be wrong but I believe Toad is talking about back emf and normal current flow. Every time you send current down a wire there is a reactive current that pushes the other way. Toads diagrams show various ways to harness this normally overlooked current and use it to charge another battery or cycle it back into the system. Once again, wait for someone to confirm this as it is only my understanding. Dont feel bad, I struggle to come to grips with most of what is written too, if it wasnt for the pictures I'd learn very little!!! lol

Ren
I could be wrong but I believe Toad was talking about BEMF and the induced current caused by the magnet approaching the coil. You could be correct but my point is that the answer should come from the author.
Tropes

Hi guys. Sorry if things appear to be getting complicated.  ???  I've tried to keep things simple as I can.  :-\  Hope I haven't mislead any of you.

On page 6 I deliberately only talked about how the coils react to the pulsed supply current, but on page seven I am showing by way of arrows both the reaction to the supply current (with green arrows) and also whats happening with the Induced Current  (Induced EMF- shown by red arrows) from the magnets.

Quote from page 7:  "Group A will always take advantage of the pulsed supply, but it will only be influenced by the rotating magnets, when the current induced by the rotating magnets is in the same direction as that shown by the red arrow below winding B. This is because diode D1 only allows current through winding B in one direction. But Group B has a definite advantage as a generating coil because it will receive current from both directions induced by the magnets, shown by the red and green arrows below winding B, due to the full wave bridge, which allows this."


I hope it's not too confusing as I have deliberately kept the explanations to a minimum to avoid confusion.  :-[ But the best piece of information will come over the next few days when I talk about passive pick-up coils. This is where the Adams motor "Bends Lenz's Law"!

Cheers for now, happy motoring pulsars!  :)

Quote from: Ren on October 25, 2007, 06:03:49 PM
@ tropes. I could be wrong but I believe Toad is talking about back emf and normal current flow. Every time you send current down a wire there is a reactive current that pushes the other way. Toads diagrams show various ways to harness this normally overlooked current and use it to charge another battery or cycle it back into the system. Once again, wait for someone to confirm this as it is only my understanding. Dont feel bad, I struggle to come to grips with most of what is written too, if it wasnt for the pictures I'd learn very little!!! lol

-----------------------------------
Ren
I could be wrong but I believe Toad was talking about BEMF and the induced current caused by the magnet approaching the coil. You could be correct but my point is that the answer should come from the author.
Tropes

Hi guys. Sorry if things appear to be getting complicated.  ???  I've tried to keep things simple as I can.  :-\  Hope I haven't mislead any of you.

On page 6 I deliberately only talked about how the coils react to the pulsed supply current, but on page seven I am showing by way of arrows both the reaction to the supply current (with green arrows) and also whats happening with the Induced Current  (Induced EMF- from the magnets - as shown by red arrows - )

Quote from page 7:  "Group A will always take advantage of the pulsed supply, but it will only be influenced by the rotating magnets, when the current induced by the rotating magnets is in the same direction as that shown by the red arrow below winding B. This is because diode D1 only allows current through winding B in one direction. But Group B has a definite advantage as a generating coil because it will receive current from both directions induced by the magnets, shown by the red and green arrows below winding B, due to the full wave bridge, which allows this."


I hope it's not too confusing as I have deliberately kept the explanations to a minimum to avoid confusion.  :-[ But the best piece of information will come over the next few days when I talk about passive pick-up coils. This is where the Adams motor "Bends Lenz's Law"!

Cheers for now, happy motoring pulsars!  :)

Here are the promissed pics.
Working with one drive and one pickup to maximize in/out put. You may noticed the shielding on half of the magnets (ran out of shield #&%*&^*&??.).  I want to try 24 or 26 AWG on the pickups.
The 20 AWG I'm now using may be a bit much for this setup but will work with it for now. I like the splatter coil idea and will incorporate that later.

Hi all, I trust you've had a good week end.
I've had a very busy one.

I've finished writing up all the things I wanted to say about pulse motors.
Could have gone on forever but I won't. No time. I hope the info I've posted is useful to you
one way or another
.
I also hope some of you take up the experiment challenge on page 10.

Am getting really busy at the moment. Won't have much time to scratch my as... :-\  :D
I'll probably just lurk around for a while, dropping in from time to time to see what you all
have been getting up to.

Here's the latest from me at : http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html

Cheers and KneeDeep from the Toad who Hops  :)

I want to personally thank you toadie on behalf of all visitors and regulars here for all your efforts and instructionals. I found your final page extremely interesting. You have inspired me to experiment with something like this, time and finances providing. I wish you all the best and hope we see you from time to time in here. Dont be a stranger!

Quote from: Ren on October 29, 2007, 05:06:37 PM
I want to personally thank you toadie on behalf of all visitors and regulars here for all your efforts and instructionals. I found your final page extremely interesting. It struck me how similar your dc pmm powered alternator is to this setup built by Bedini and Watson. They used a flywheel to keep inertial momentum and pulsed power to the dc pmm for some amazing results.

You have inspired me to experiment with something like this, time and finances providing. I wish you all the best and hope we see you from time to time in here. Dont be a stranger!

Gidday Ren, Hop the Toad who Hops says yeh! Go for it !. You will easily repeat the effect I described. Its always there, in an open system, but  you just need a decent amount of "grunt", and the right, simple configuration, to expose it in an undeniable way.

As I stated, however, I don't believe this is O/U, but it is a pathway to simpler, more efficient systems of generation, because you are turning an ordinarily "bad", electrical vector into a "good" electrical vector. If you were driving the alternator with a petrol or diesel engine, the output characterics of an open system would deliver far move more value for money.

How does that vector change take place in an open system with no known contemporary reason? It's a BIG question.
I also have stated that I have an "Opinion", . This could only become "Theory" if it was proven to be correct by majority analysis.
I have not revealed my "Opinion" at this stage, because I do not want to influence the thinking of those who may do this experiment for themselves.
It will be nice to see what their untainted learning reveals to them. They will be looking with "Fresh" eyes at a subject which I have hit a brick wall!

Having just said that, I'll break my own rule, right now (LOL) and mention a point to ponder.  ;)

"Frequency" means everything. Very fast rotor speeds are dangerous!  Higher frequency for the same RPM = more magnets!
Use smaller diameter magnets and cores and use 10, 12, 14 any even number of magnet and core pairs. A 4 pole alternator doubles frequency with 8 poles, 8 to 16 etc.

Good luck, and be careful! Speed kills!  :P

KneeDeep, KneeDeep From the Toad who Hops

I agree with hoptoad,
Frequency is everything, this is why I showed my motors running so slow. I was allowing the resonance of the bifilar coil to to charge a cap thru the feedback of the transistor. The transistor can switch rapidly. Tesla did not have these products available during his time, but if he did he would have made great use of them. In order to allow the full feed back of the coils we are using, rpm must be controlled precicly for the most output (not necessarily rpm, but firing of the coil) . I think this is what hoptoad is getting at.
Jason

p.s. Hoptoad correct me if I'm wrong.

my basic theory is similar to that Jase. I believe frequency is very important. More so, I think that making a certain coil of certain length and construction resonate at a certain frequency can have unusual results. I have read that batteries have a certain frequency, imagine if it was as simple as hitting a battery with a certain frequency that would make it recharge? That would be something.

I believe you are correct Ren. When dealing with batteries, your dealing with several natural molecular and atomic resonance frequencies. There must be a corresponding harmonic to excite said molecules and atoms. When dealing with capacitors, your dealing with point charges, therefore every cap also has a corresponding resonance frequency. If you believe that string theory is the next step in explaining our physical universe, then one must also believe in virtual particle flux. That is particles exist and cease to exist within our dimension, coming and going. I believe that resonance may be able to harness this energy. A good person to study is Paul A. Dirac.
Jason

heres a pic of recent progress. Bedini circuit on three bifilar coils, one trigger three power. Adjustable rpm and amp draw via 1k pot. Two windings not being currently used. Rotor is hard drive 10mm cube neos n/s/n/s/n/s/n/s. experimenting with recharging via bedinis method and also off collector back to emitter. Both ways showing potential.

Video here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0I2HtTu2Cs

kool vid Ren :)

motors been running all day. Trying to condition car battery. Has risen from 12.30 to 12.65 so far. Run has dropped from 12.40 to 12.20

@ Ren  nice work

So here's my mini beast with three Adams bifilar coils. It's running at approx. 180 rpm
Supply voltage is 24 (two 4.5AH UPS batteries). Bedini 2-transistor drive ckt. each trans powers two coils in series leaving two windings hooked in series with a FWB feeding charge battery.
Charge battery is a Marine deep cycle 115 AH. It's slowly charging and will start to add my pickup coil today.
Tried the hard drive platter with little to show for it except the experience. Will post when I have something interesting. Still want to try the splatter coils but will have to wait on more magnet wire.
By the way.., I angled the magnets and the coils for  better firing and this helps with torque. 

nice mate. Its hard to find the right hard drive bearings.  Most (old ones especially) are press fit into the unit and arent easily removed. VCR's have awesome spools in them which have excellent bearings, my next mini will be made on one of these. Got 1 kilo of wire delivered today, if anyone has any bright ideas on how to braid/twist 3 wires @ 300 feet let me know :D

Bearings, Arrggghhh...

The bane of my experimenting continues to haunt. Good news though. With the two transistor Bedini drive ckt I've been watching input and output current readings and they appear almost equal. Here's the problem. With the BEMF fed back from both trannies it slows the motor down substantially and we still have to deal with the .6V loss from the diodes??? Motor will spin for a veerrryy long time but so what! Sure wish I could overcome that loss from the diodes but alas, that IS why we try. Pretty much had it with the beast and have ordered a couple of 20" Plastic bicycle wheels w/bearings in the hope I can overcome some of my frictional losses. Two Adams style drive coils and one charge coil gives me much to work with. Feel like I'm close to overcoming most of the losses and will march on.

Hi All,

I hope those motors of yours are still humming away nicely. Ren I just wanted to thank you again for sending me the DVD of Bedini.
There wasn't really any new ground covered in the video that I haven't read about or personally experimented with before, but it was still a very interesting video to watch. Wow, what wouldn't I have given for a workshop like Bedini's. All my years of experimenting were carried out in the smallest of sheds, with the minimal amount of funding and limited access to machinery of any kind.

Bedinis workshop made me slather and froth at the mouth. LOL

Hows that mammoth coil you've been winding? Ready to ionize the world with a massive bemf spike?!  LOL  :D

Also Tropes, hows your sotropa experiments coming along. The last posting you showed some well machined parts ready for your next round of experiments. How's it all going?  :)

Cheers all from the Toad who Hops

Hey Brian. no worries.

I've been out of action lately, just had all my wisdom teeth out. Ouch. Been gathering parts here and there for my monopole replication, have wound coil (830 turns trifilar) and ordered perspex rotor. Getting magnets tomorrow. Will post pics once assembled.

Quote from: Ren on November 18, 2007, 04:24:13 PM

"just had all my wisdom teeth out. Ouch. Been gathering parts here and there for my monopole replication, have would coil (830 turns trifilar) ".

Ouch - my mouth hurts just thinking about it!  That's one lot of teeth I'm glad I had very few problems with.
Ren - That looks like the Mother of All Coils !! LOL  :D
Good luck!

Cheers from the Toad who Hops  :)

Can anyone give me this answer..,
When winding my coils I took great pains to make sure the wires were parallel and wound in the Adams coil fashion.
Soooo.., is it better to twist when winding or not to twist????

Carl

from my understanding it can be done either way, twisting ensures neatness, apart from that I am unsure if there is any other advantage. I probably wouldnt have twisted them if it was bi, but winding three separate wires trifilar was always going to be a bit messy.

@ Ren
Thank you for your response.
I am working with 3 Adams style coils of 20 AWG bifilar wound and each winding is +/- 6 ohm. Connecting them using one winding of each in series and using the second windings also wired in series to recapture through a FWB. Also added a pickup coil of 20 AWG and it is generating a 20V pp which is also run through a FWB. Input is what I'm varying through a SSG circuit. To date, no joy in finding unity but always appear close. I'm back to using a 23" aluminum bicycle wheel with 12 2 X 1 X 1/2 Neos all N facing out. Will post when that Eureka moment arrives.

Carl

Hi Casman.

No worries, keep testin ;). HAve you ever built a window motor? I have chucked one together and I am getting very interesting results. Too soon yet to tell whats going on, I'll post some pics and progress soon.

Quote from: Ren on November 20, 2007, 04:00:39 PM
from my understanding it can be done either way, twisting ensures neatness, apart from that I am unsure if there is any other advantage. I probably wouldnt have twisted them if it was bi, but winding three separate wires trifilar was always going to be a bit messy.

Hi guys, I'm glad to see you're all still heads down, and workin on!

The twisting of wires when winding multi-filar coils is only necessary if your experiment requires that your coil has the barest minimum of inherent "winding to winding capacitance". When you twist the wires as you're winding them, the capacitance between windings is reduced because the wires are constantly crossing over and reversing the path of the electric field between them, causing the stray capacitance to "neutralize".

Cheers from the Toad who Hops

Quote from: hoptoad on October 30, 2007, 12:24:20 AM

Quote from: Ren on October 29, 2007, 05:06:37 PM
I want to personally thank you toadie on behalf of all visitors and regulars here for all your efforts and instructionals. I found your final page extremely interesting. It struck me how similar your dc pmm powered alternator is to this setup built by Bedini and Watson. They used a flywheel to keep inertial momentum and pulsed power to the dc pmm for some amazing results.

You have inspired me to experiment with something like this, time and finances providing. I wish you all the best and hope we see you from time to time in here. Dont be a stranger!

Hi Toadhop.

You have certainly revive my interest in Adams motor. I'd given up pursuing it a couple of months ago (expectations were different then). Your website explains it all. Great work! and big thanks.

BTW, what software do you use to draw up the drawings? I'm looking for something better tha ms-paint!

Again, thanks. sanmankl

Quote from: sanmankl on November 25, 2007, 11:00:41 AM

Hi Toadhop.

You have certainly revive my interest in Adams motor. I'd given up pursuing it a couple of months ago (expectations were different then). Your website explains it all. Great work! and big thanks.

BTW, what software do you use to draw up the drawings? I'm looking for something better tha ms-paint!

Again, thanks. sanmankl

That's HopToad BTW    LOL!
The drawings were done in Flash 5.0
They are actually swf files on my website, but the images can also be rendered as jpg, bitmap, etc.

A lot of programmers don't like Flash, but as a drawing program, I really like it. Its very flexible and easy to use for simple drawing tasks.
It's actually a fully fledged compiler in a creative interactive animation context, but it's oh so many more things than that!

Flash is now up to Version 9 and is very expensive! If you want a really good grade Drawing/Photo imaging program then download the GIMP
Its free, powerful, and flexible. Just type GIMP in your favourite search engine and you'll find it. Theres also a free student version of CIRCUITMAKER available on the net. It's very useful for electronic layouts.

I'm glad you find my pages interesting. At some stage in a few months or so, work and time permitting, I will tidy up some of the explanations, and then add some more pages which will bring together all the little observations regarding "An Anomoly with Lenz's Law in an Open Magnetic System". When I do, I will give my "opinion" on how I think this anomoly actually occurs. At the moment, I'm very busy.

Cheers all from the Toad who Hops

Flash is a great program Toadie, when I did graphic design  I used it a few times for various animated sequences. Adobe (now macromedia) Freehand and Illustrator are vector based drawing programs that I use for this type of stuff, they are a little more advanced however and can overwhelm and frustrate beginners.

Just wanted to post a note for Tropes, if he still visits here. I found an interesting link on another forum I frequent and it made me think of his piston driven device. Heres a quote with a link.

"I recently came across a web page on Naudin's website (http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/2magpup.htm) which demonstrates the fact that the push pull force of a magnet is about 200% greater than the force exerted by it when sliding them over each other and proposes a method for building a self running magnet motor.

So this fact can also be used in electric motor design, because an electromagnet behaves so much like a normal magnet when current passes through it. To maximize torque we must use the most of the forces that the stator electromagnet on the rotor (attraction or repulsion makes no difference).

The main trick is to use the most out of the magnetic field produced to maximize the mechanical output. Bob Teal's magnetic attraction motor was piston operated thus it was able to use all of the pull force of the electromagnet, which is more more than double the sliding force of it (according the Naudin's experiments), but rotary motors can utilize both the pulling force and the sliding force of it but both of them partially. That means it utilizes the both forces of the electromagnet but not all of the both forces some of the forces are wasted while exerting force on the crank shaft, I was wondering:
1- Does the torque produced in piston operated engines outweigh rotary motors?
2- How to increase the utilization of most of both magnetic forces to produce even more torque?"



I thought that he may find it of particular interest or inspiration.

Quote from: Ren on November 26, 2007, 02:44:34 PM
Just wanted to post a note for Tropes, if he still visits here. I found an interesting link on another forum I frequent and it made me think of his piston driven device. Heres a quote with a link.

"I recently came across a web page on Naudin's website (http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/2magpup.htm) which demonstrates the fact that the push pull force of a magnet is about 200% greater than the force exerted by it when sliding them over each other and proposes a method for building a self running magnet motor.

So this fact can also be used in electric motor design, because an electromagnet behaves so much like a normal magnet when current passes through it. To maximize torque we must use the most of the forces that the stator electromagnet on the rotor (attraction or repulsion makes no difference).

The main trick is to use the most out of the magnetic field produced to maximize the mechanical output. Bob Teal's magnetic attraction motor was piston operated thus it was able to use all of the pull force of the electromagnet, which is more more than double the sliding force of it (according the Naudin's experiments), but rotary motors can utilize both the pulling force and the sliding force of it but both of them partially. That means it utilizes the both forces of the electromagnet but not all of the both forces some of the forces are wasted while exerting force on the crank shaft, I was wondering:
1- Does the torque produced in piston operated engines outweigh rotary motors?
2- How to increase the utilization of most of both magnetic forces to produce even more torque?"

Thanks Ren
I did find the material interesting. Regarding Bob Teal, his use of solenoid pistons does not utilize the attraction force of magnet facing magnet. His knowledge of the internal combustion engine is evident but leads to further inefficiency (solid cylinders). Unfortunately,the use of magnetic attraction in electric motors is not common so little data exists.
Tropes

Quote from: hoptoad on November 26, 2007, 07:15:10 AM

Quote from: sanmankl on November 25, 2007, 11:00:41 AM

Hi Toadhop.

You have certainly revive my interest in Adams motor. I'd given up pursuing it a couple of months ago (expectations were different then). Your website explains it all. Great work! and big thanks.

BTW, what software do you use to draw up the drawings? I'm looking for something better tha ms-paint!

Again, thanks. sanmankl

That's HopToad BTW    LOL!
The drawings were done in Flash 5.0
They are actually swf files on my website, but the images can also be rendered as jpg, bitmap, etc.

A lot of programmers don't like Flash, but as a drawing program, I really like it. Its very flexible and easy to use for simple drawing tasks.
It's actually a fully fledged compiler in a creative interactive animation context, but it's oh so many more things than that!

Flash is now up to Version 9 and is very expensive! If you want a really good grade Drawing/Photo imaging program then download the GIMP
Its free, powerful, and flexible. Just type GIMP in your favourite search engine and you'll find it. Theres also a free student version of CIRCUITMAKER available on the net. It's very useful for electronic layouts.

I'm glad you find my pages interesting. At some stage in a few months or so, work and time permitting, I will tidy up some of the explanations, and then add some more pages which will bring together all the little observations regarding "An Anomoly with Lenz's Law in an Open Magnetic System". When I do, I will give my "opinion" on how I think this anomoly actually occurs. At the moment, I'm very busy.

Cheers all from the Toad who Hops

@HopToad
My apologies about the change of name.  :D

I've dug up a SVG program called "EVE". I have it in my laptop for ages but never used it until now. It's claimed to be the world's smallest vector drawing program. Downloadable at www.goosee.com.  It's a single executable. Does what I want, essentially so I'm ok for now. Thanks for the recommendation but I can't afford Flash....$$$ and the time to learn it.

Anyway, back to serious stuff. I've been doing some adam motor setups previously and today, after winding a new coil onto an anchor boot sleeve (1 layer of #23 wire to a 3/8" sleeve), the current draw to start up was high and it remains high. Killed my TIP122 in the process. Everything is running hot! Too high current draw.

So, my question is what's the windings for your coil? I'd tried 4 layer and it's still high.  My guess is multi-layer windings to at least 5 ohms?

You have my admiration for a well-thought out, well written site on this adam motor. Well done.

Cheers, cp

heres some more pics guys! Enjoy. Bedini ssg awaiting circuitry and window motor (cranks!) on ssg circuit, perhaps a conversion to Bedini/cole circuit in the near future.

Quote from: sanmankl on December 03, 2007, 07:40:02 AM

@HopToad
..............
I've been doing some adam motor setups previously and today, after winding a new coil onto an anchor boot sleeve (1 layer of #23 wire to a 3/8" sleeve), the current draw to start up was high and it remains high. Killed my TIP122 in the process. Everything is running hot! Too high current draw.
So, my question is what's the windings for your coil? I'd tried 4 layer and it's still high.  My guess is multi-layer windings to at least 5 ohms?

@sanmankl

Sorry to hear to you're having the dreaded burn-out problems!  :-\

You've actually highlighted the need for me to expand on the information regarding this sort of core. After all, I gave plenty of good reasons why I liked and used it, but like all other core types, it has its limitations which must be taken into account and a downside when limitations are exceeded!

Firstly the 3/8 " diameter hollow core (you didn't specify length, but no matter), will be a very low impedance core which will saturate very quickly. That in itself is not really an issue, but if you are using the cores for drive coils, the characteristics for the drive coil will be closer to an air core, than a solid core in terms of impedance. This will mean using lighter gauge wire and more windings to achieve a higher resistance/impedance if you don't want to suffer more burn-outs. Also you could go to a slightly higher diameter sleeve as well, e.g, 1/2 inch (10mm ID, 12 MM OD), and it will help to increase impedance.

If you are only using one coil, then indeed you will need to wind many more turns of the same gauge, but it will probably be more practical to wind more turns with a lighter gauge. BTW I've never bought wire on the basis of gauge, because imperial and metric gauges are different and I can never remember either of them. DOH!  So I always look for and refer to the wire diameter. e.g:   .63mm   .4mm   .32mm etc.

The more coils that you use in series, as drivers, the higher the total inductive reactance will be. In my experiments with these particular cores, I used no less than 2 coils in series, and up to 8 coils in some setups, because they are very low impedence cores. But not as low as air cores, and therefore not requiring anywhere near the number of turns as an air core. In other words, they are a good compromise between air cores and solid or laminated cores, in terms of the number of coil winds required to achieve a given inductance and hence inductive reactance.

Your problems with using this core type may partly lie in the diameter and mass of your rotor. (I don't know anything about your rotor). The smaller the diameter, the higher the speed and the larger the diameter the lower the speed, generally speaking of course! High speed means high frequency, which means higher inductive reactance, which means less current.

My Rotor consisted of  eight x (10mm x 6 mm) Neo Magnets arranged in North South Configuration in very tight proximity to each other. I used the Dual Pole not the Mono Pole arrangement, to allow for more experiment parameters. Its Diameter is 65 mm, its made from high temperature resistant epoxy resin and fine lathed to the thickness of the rotor magnets. I used a planar rotor assembly with a precison Hard Drive bearing and brass rotor axle.

My drive cores were (8mm ID, 10mm OD) x 45 mm Length). The coils consisted of .3mm transformer wire x 250 turns.
The length of coil turning on core was 15 mm. Coils wound in heel end style. Approx diameter of coils (on core) 20 mm. DC Resistance less than 1 ohm.

Drive circuit consisted of Flip Flop MOSFET circuit based on page 3, figs 7+ 8 combined with precision optical switching as shown in fig 28 on page 9. Optimum duty cycle 20%.

At 12.6V rotor speed approximated 8,000 RPM with 2 coils at 400ma; 6000 RPM with 4 Coils at 120 ma; and 4500 RPM with 8 coils at 30ma. (BTW all the above numbers are from memory - it's nearly 6 years ago now since I played with these motors!)

If your rotor is a larger diameter, these sorts of speeds will not be reached, and therefore frequency will be lower and impedance will be lower, and current will be greater.

@sanmankl
The real benefit with these cores lies in their use as pick-up coils rather than as drivers, but they will still be suitable as drivers if you bear in mind that they are inherently low impedence, and you may need to compensate by increasing total coil impedance by methods just discussed.....

I hope this info helps you.
Cheers from the Toad who Hops  :)

Quote from: Ren on December 03, 2007, 07:18:14 PM
heres some more pics guys! Enjoy. Bedini ssg awaiting circuitry and window motor (cranks!) on ssg circuit, perhaps a conversion to Bedini/cole circuit in the near future.

@Ren
Someone's been very busy!!!  Cheers mate, s'lookin good!  ........KneeDeep

@sanmankl
P.S. I hope you don't mind, but I copied your question and my answer to the bottom of Page 4 on my website as a postnote, because you raised a very relevent potential problem and it was something I should have addressed with a scenario and solution.

http://www.totallyamped.net/adams

After all, everything has an up and a down side.

I hope I haven't caused you to suffer too many circuit problems by way of information omission.  :(
I hate it when things go PHsssssttt and then puff little smoke rings of exhaustion and overload!  :D

Cheers all - Keep on motoring!  :)

Quote from: hoptoad on December 04, 2007, 05:27:48 AM
@sanmankl
P.S. I hope you don't mind, but I copied your question and my answer to the bottom of Page 4 on my website as a postnote, because you raised a very relevent potential problem and it was something I should have addressed with a scenario and solution.

http://www.totallyamped.net/adams

After all, everything has an up and a down side.

I hope I haven't caused you to suffer too many circuit problems by way of information omission.  :(
I hate it when things go PHsssssttt and then puff little smoke rings of exhaustion and overload!  :D

Cheers all - Keep on motoring!  :)

@Hoptoad,

No worries about things going phssssst.... All part of experimentation. Without failure, where's success? :-)

Thanks for your help.

Cheers, cp

more pics guys. Finished circuit, runs nice and smooth! Awaiting some new batteries as the old ones I have, while charging, arent really ideal for a study of this machine. I'll post a vid soon!

Ren,
I like the setup, let us know how it works out. I know I don't post much anymore, but I still watch. And the vcr bearings work great.
Jason

Hey Jase,

So far so good. Little bit dissapointed as I can only seem to get the 12v 7amp hours up to 13.10v. I can charge two or three though before the run goes flat. Think I need a bigger coil, or more of them.

Draws 90-100 ma on one transistor, and 230ma on two. Charge time is between 4-6 hours. I might try some smaller batteries, perhaps some 4 amp hours to see if it simply the geometry of my coil that is insufficient. Its doing everything Bedini says it will anyway, the batteries are brand new.

On a side note, just caught up with an old friend who I found out inspects emergency lighting in office complexes. Guess what he has to swap out every two years by law! I scored 2 24amp hours and 4 12 amp hours off him. He says he throws out about a hundred a week! Now I just got to find someone who is throwing out butloads of copper wire and Im set!

Merry christmas mate.

S

Quote from: Ren on December 19, 2007, 05:50:06 AM
Little bit dissapointed as I can only seem to get the 12v 7amp hours up to 13.10v. I can charge two or three though before the run goes flat. Think I need a bigger coil, or more of them.

Ren, I don't think bigger coils are required here.
A small hint from my side:
The peak voltage is occuring just after switching off the current in the coil.
In theory: U_coil = L x dI/dt
In other words the coil value times the the steepness of the switching off of the current is a measure for the peak voltage (that is used for charging). With the coil you have in use it should be very feasable to obtain a few hundred volt peak voltage (without load)
So, maybe the transistors do not switch off the current fast enough.

Another reason could be that the iron core is saturated when the magnet is passing.
Enlarging the distance between the top of the coil and your magnets could help in such case.

B.t.w. what exactly do you mean with "I can charge two or three though before the run goes flat"?
Charge two or three discharged batteries from one charged battery?

Perhaps your right Robbie. I have noticed on Bedinis schematics that the core diameter is the same width as the magnet that passes. I made my coil before I noticed this and it is 20mm where as my magnets are 25mm. Could this perhaps cause the transistor to fire for a longer period and not cause the sharp gradient which is desired?

I used tie wire for the coil, which other people seem to have had great success with. I placed some neos on it for a couple of hours and then removed and tried to pick up some metal shavings, it doesnt hold any residual magnetism. It is about 2-3 mm away from the rotor.

The batteries I have discharged at their c20 down to 12.3v (resting) and then charged one at a time back up to 12.8 (13.10, 12.8 resting) before the run reaches 12.30.

I guess this isnt an exact test as the batteries arent fully discharged, I didnt want to drain them fully yet.

Finally, some success. Have been using a SSG setup with two opposing bifiler wound ADAMS coils. This setup has given me many opportunities to experiment and with the current setup I am ever so slowly charging the primary battery. No charging battery in ckt. Here's the results: At 11:00 A.M. EST I started with two batteries(24V), the first one started at 11.96 V and the second at 12.21. It is now 14:22 and the first one is now at 11.98 and the second is at 12.23.
I will leave this alone and check in the morning but this is the most promissing response I've seen to date. If it continues on current track I'll post pics tomorrow.

Carl

came in this morning only to find a broken contact^&*^&$#$##@.
if anyone has a good idea on how to put or make a reliable mechanical contact for my bicycole wheel I'm really open to suggestions. 12 guage house wire breaks with enough movement and that is what happend. Other than that setback I'm still excited about the progress.

Carl

   Braided ground wire works. Also, the brushes on street sweepers use SS tines. I use them now and then for switch contacts. Just watch the amps you draw through as they will heat.

thaelin

Thaelin I had an idea the other night about constructing at sturdy switching mechanism/commutator that would create minimum drag on a rotor. I got to thinking that if a brush was placed against a rotating disc (commutator) it would create some amount of drag, depending on size and pressure against the tab I guess. But what if the brush was a small bearing that was fixed and rolled against the disc, completing the circuit as required when the sections of copper (or conductive material) passed the bearing. It would look like a figure eight, the top loop being a small bearing and the bottom loop a larger timing wheel. Anyone care to comment?

Quote from: Ren on January 01, 2008, 11:26:20 PM
Thaelin I had an idea the other night about constructing at sturdy switching mechanism/commutator that would create minimum drag on a rotor. I got to thinking that if a brush was placed against a rotating disc (commutator) it would create some amount of drag, depending on size and pressure against the tab I guess. But what if the brush was a small bearing that was fixed and rolled against the disc, completing the circuit as required when the sections of copper (or conductive material) passed the bearing. It would look like a figure eight, the top loop being a small bearing and the bottom loop a larger timing wheel. Anyone care to comment?

Hi Ren,  and happy new year to all you "pulsars".

When I first started experimenting with Adams motors in 1990, I was using mechanical switching with contacts from old Telephone relay circuits. They worked well enough for high impedance coils but when I switched to low impedance coils, they had a tendency of burning out very quickly and also damaging the "star" switch. I eventually used a small bearing set from an old VHS motor in place of the relay contact, and this worked very well in reducing wear and tear on both the "star" and the contact (bearing).

I mounted the bearing on the spring wire from a clothes peg.

Eventually the sparking would cause the ball bearings inside the bearing to embellish and "pit" which caused the bearing to stick occasionally, but it was still very effective for much longer periods than using the relay contacts which would wear out quite quickly.
It also spread the spark, and reduced physical friction on the "star switch" , thus allowing a much greater runtime with the star before
it needed refacing.

Cheers and happy motoring from the Toad who Hops.  :)

Happy new year people
Keep up the great work !!!!
Peace& love& Respect .

Awesome Hoptoad, I was sure I couldnt have been the first person to think of it. I thought a nice stainless bearing would roll quite smoothly and  make a good contact for conductive paths. I was considering looking for some shockies out of an RC car, they would provide suitable tension and adjustment and would probably already have good mounting options to a frame and small bearing. Have to see.

My other option is a couple of contacts I salvaged out of a power saw. They are spring mounted and look like carbon based?


Thanks again Knee Deep!

Quote from: Ren on January 02, 2008, 03:19:30 PM
My other option is a couple of contacts I salvaged out of a power saw. They are spring mounted and look like carbon based?

@Ren
Yes they are carbon based. They are usually impregnated with very fine powdered copper.

The trick here (generally speaking) when using these types of contacts is to use brushes designed for low voltage DC motors. Most 240 Volt AC motors use carbon brushes that have a built in resistance which can often measure from a few ohms up to a 100 ohms, depending on the motor requirements. The other thing to be aware of, is that they are usually quite thick, and this will impact on the actual duty cycle by extending it a little bit, because the switch needs to travel the full width of the contact before it turns "off" again. This is overcome by adjusting your contact with the switch by moving the contact to a smaller (narrower) region of the switch.

Cheers from The Toad who Hops........KneeDeep  :)

NOOO!!!!!!!

I just finished reading your last thread!  18 pages!!!!

After reading them all, I feel like I know you guys.  Anyways, this is my 2nd post (1st one was on the last thread).  Good job guys, when I get a chance, I'll try to cover these 20 pages.  I think you guys are awesome, and really like the idea about using the excess power for Hydrogen.  Hopefully talk to ya soon.

Corey   ;D

Hi Corey,

Thats the spirit, keep up your search for truth and your passion to learn and build.

Post here if you need some help.

Ren

Hi Ren:
   Kind of late, but here. The bearing type was used by a fella named Konzen. Used them on his boat motor. He did remove the grease in them and refill with conductive type. Brushes are always a pain and need adjustment/replacement over time. But then they are simple to deal with. I just seen a post on OU where someone took an old starter motor for a car and took off the contact section and mounted it on the end of the motor shaft. Use the brushes for said motor and they should be near short reading. Hook up only one pad and leave the adjoining ones float should give you somewhat short on times.
   Then fast and dirty, heavy clad pc board etched to the pattern you want and spring brushes make for a design dream

thaelin

Good idea thaelin! Im all for salvaging parts from anywhere I can. I may try the bearings as I think it will be the smoothest and easiest, not to mention simple to replace. The conductive grease sounds a go'er but I'll probably get really small sealed units.

Hello my Hero's!!!

I finally got caught up on this thread.  Wow, you guys ROCK!

I've started collecting stuff, I got my Magnets N42 1"x1", Battery, 2-Car Alternators (don't ask!) =).  I also ordered 10 HAL IC's (but I think they sent me the wrong things.  I was wondering if I could get a kick start from you all.  As soon as I make a circuit that is worth something, I will will post. 

Question 1:
Your recent posts are looking for a timing trigger of your Coils.... I thought that is what the HAL IC was for ? ???  I hope so, I just bought 10!   ;D

Question 2:
I am running a 12 volt system with anywhere from 1-125 Amps (yeah, I know).....  What kind of Diodes, transistors, and Capacitor should I get to charge a 12V Car Battery?


I know this sounds like I am a complete Newb (cause I am), but any help would be greatly appreciated!!   ;D

Lastly, since reading your posts from the beginning, I would like to say how impressed I am with the evolutions of your designs.  WOW!!!!!  Looking good!   ;)

Corey

I guess after reading 40 pages of posts I figured you guys talked like every 5 mins...   ;)

I will spend more time figuring out the other questions, but was curious as to the HAL IC's.  I got a response from the company, and they said I had the SF package, and the picture I sent them (from their website) was a UA package.  Is there a specific HAL IC place I can get these bad boys from?

To clarify my last post, I am looking at higher amps in order to induce Hydroxy.  Sort of a bigger scale model I guess.  Thanks for your help with the HAL IC's!

Corey

hey Corey, good to see your enthusiasm is still strong. Check out hoptoads page here for various configurations. http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/

With the hall sensors you ordered you need to google the part number and find a spec sheet to figure out its capabilities and pin layout. Some halls are switched on by a north pole, some by a south pole some by both. There are simple ways to setup a hall and get it turning as shown by hoptoad, but charging a battery will take some further experimenting.

To tell the truth I have shifted over to Bedinis designs for a few good reasons. The first one is that all the schematics are already posted with part numbers and layouts, and there are hundreds of replications out there. They charge the batteries and the batteries get better and better over time.

The second one is the simplicity of the circuit and the unusual properties it has. Timing is totally taken care of by the trigger coil winding (very similar to the way Nastrands motor is wired) and is adjustable by potentiometer. The circuit runs cold as do the coils, and they are easy to construct. Some of the more advanced circuits use halls too.

Start small, and learn the basics. Build a simple unit that spins the wheel. Dont laugh, my first circuit used a microswitch (mechanical switch) which was turned on by the magnet passing by and bumping it. It was crude and inevitably failed at high switching rates, but it boosted my enthusiasm and drove me to learn more and experiment further. I never really built a good charging circuit from a hall switched device (it definately can be done though)  but I learnt alot from the timing and construction of one. If you want any help or tips regarding a bedini circuit I'd be happy to help.

Good luck.

Hi all
Just wondering how you're all going with your motoring experiments. I haven't seen much activity on this thread lately. All still on holidays perhaps? I'm always curious about any fresh revelations regarding pulsed motor systems. Cheers all From the Toad who Hops and keep on keepin on.

Getting some great results from my Bedini wheel on 24v. Ive realised that if 1 wants mechanical power a higher voltage is desired. It can run quite efficiently on 50 ma with decent speed/torque. Also my window motor is going well, it can be tripped into solidstate quite easily and has very interesting properties!

Ive uploaded another video to you tube, I'll have to make some more.

Ren,
  That is cool!  I need to get a link to your new motor to check it out.  I agree about voltage!  I have experimented with a coil I have made.  I am going to make about 3 more coils tonight.  I am going to experiment with the direction, amount of turns, and amps/volts.  It took me about 1.5 seconds to realize that the magnetic effects are more about Volts, and less about amps.  When you shoot 12v/6amp and get 1/2 inch repulsion, 6v/6amp, get a 1/4 inch repulsion, then 12v/100amp and get 3/4 inch repulsion, it seems to be about volts.
   Next I am constructing 2-3 more coils in differnt configurations.  This will tell me how to configure a coil with the optimum settings.  Next, I will test the above volts/amps and see what kinds of results I get (ie one coil config is better for 6v than 12, etc).  After that I will buy some differnt gauge coil wire, and test the difference in the amount of volts, to the best config of coil, then to the best rating of gauge.
   After that, I am looking at raising the volts and lowering the amps.....  Any suggestion on that?  I'm not real electronic smart, but will report my findings.  How can I change to 12v/65amp to 1000volt/1milliamp (I know not realistic, just an example).

Ren, I was also thinking that maybe if you wrapped your coils you might get more energy back (Tesla, but not in a transformer config).  I think I have read all your posts, but don't remember reading it.  If you want to increase your volts, drop your guage to like 30 or 32.  I am wondering how many turns it would take to capture 100% electromagnetic collapse.....

Toad,
Any suggestions on what I wrote?  Did I sound completly new, or did I make a little sense..   =)

Hmmm... lots of questions. It depends on how you are going to drive your device as to what voltage you can use. You will want to select the appropriate components for your particular experiment. As far as reducing amp draw, well this can be done a number of ways. A simple potentiometer will allow you to adjust current draw, another way is to reduce the length of time your primary battery is running closed loop, ie pulsed application.

A good way to build up charge is to pulse power down one winding of a multi filar coil and collect the collapse off another. Have it go to a high voltage bridge and store in a capacitor for future use. In this sence you are isolating your power from your source, which can have interesting effects.

Im not sure I understand your statement about wrapping your coils right. My coils are wrapped, The gauge of each wire picked for specific reasons. You cant pump alot of current through a thin wire, and perhaps a high voltage motor could benefit from this. For now I limit myself to learning with 12 and 24 volt because of safety and funds. High voltage can be very dangerous if you dont know what  your doing.Send me a pm if you want some simple design to replicate that will help you understand the basics.

Quote from: Ren on January 23, 2008, 06:29:08 PM
Getting some great results from my Bedini wheel on 24v. Ive realised that if 1 wants mechanical power a higher voltage is desired. It can run quite efficiently on 50 ma with decent speed/torque. Also my window motor is going well, it can be tripped into solidstate quite easily and has very interesting properties!

Ive uploaded another video to you tube, I'll have to make some more.

Hi Ren, can you post the links of your you-tube video's ? I am very interested!

Thanks,
Robbie

heres one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma8Mas50W44

@ Ren:
   Nice Video!  I really like the quality of your motor!  Do you know where I can get some cheap acrylic like you got (about 1" thick).  Looking good!   ;D

   To clairfy what I was suggesting, I read your posts about the bifilar coils, but I was thinking of something different.   Check out the pictures I made (poorly).  Just a thought......  When I come up with a good test on all the coils I am makeing (painfully) I will share those results.   ;)

    I looked everywhere for Pots and Resistors and Diodes.  I don't think I understand enough to make an investment into them.  So far, it looks like I will be running 12 volt 25-50 amp per coil (rough guess).  Your direction to the pots got me thinking about a light dimmer switch on a car.  I think that should work perfect and it's free (just what I need!)  Anyways, I do appreciate all the help your giving me, I wish I was an electronic genius.... ::)

   Lastly, I found a cool place to do all the hard math for us.  If you look on the left side  it will say "Technical Calculator" http://www.riedon.com/us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3&Itemid=4
Looks like any kind of math you need to do to figure out your volts/watts/amps/resistance/etc can be done here pretty easy. 

Thanks again for all your help Ren!!!!   ;D

Hi all, glad to see you're keepin on keepin on!

@Ren - I just checked out your latest vid - nice machine work mate. A work of art if I do say so myself  ;)

@Bakercool - I haven't got much free time right at the moment, due to relatives staying with us over the long week end. Gotta do the right thing and play the cordial host and show them around the local sights etc. I'll try to give you a few little pointers about running motors on voltages higher than 12V when I get a chance, and also about using your output coils as step-up transformers.

Just a little word of caution that has already been pointed out to you - be very careful. The sort of voltages you get from the collapsing field when using pulsing DC in a step-up transformer configuration can be extremely high and very, very dangerous.

P.S. Car pots for dimming headlights tend to be wire wound, low impedance pots if you're ripping it out of an old vehicle. These are generally not very suitable to control the transistor/mosfet base.

Linear carbon track pots from your local friendly electronic outlet are usually only a dollar or two to buy, and are much more suitable for controlling the base current/voltage of your transistor/mosfet.

In the meantime, keep on keepin on! Cheers from the Toad Who Hops.  :)

bakercool, with my experience I would suggest you never cross the the 1 amp pull for this type of motor. Especially with a prototype motor. You will only end up burning out the circuits (transistors) you are using  to switch the power with. I would suggest getting the rotor moving then drawing what you can from small input. Then upgrade to larger input.
Jason

from only small input of voltage and amps, these motors can be deadly. For instance, I put in 5 volts at 100 Ma and get out 300 plus volt. That is enough to restart you heart if you touch the wrong things.

WOW!   ;D

All the responses are awesome!  Very helpful to.  I don't have a parts store near me, so everything I buy is on-line (I live on an island north of Seattle).  I have a little voltmeter thingy (I swear I'm not a newb!  :P) so It is hard to tell my volt/amp.  Hence the pot....  I believe I can get her going with 12v/6-10amp. 

@ Toad:  I looked for a pot that is for 12v-6/10amp, but could not find it.  Thanks for the heads up on post Toad on the wire wound!  I guess I will have to keep looking...  It's really hard to find parts when your an idiot ya know  :)   If anyone *cough*  ;) Toad  ;) *cough* happens to find a pot that is like what I am describing and sends a link, they get 10 cool points!    :) :) :)

@ Ren:  After watching your latest video, I was wondering why you don't put more pickup coils around your machine..  Wouldn't that increase your output?  Configured more like a standard alternator/generator?  I'm also wondering about the picture I posted last time, and separating the outside pickup coils into 2 sections to pick up the +/- of the collapsing force.  More-so the field originally generated by the electromagnet.  Isn't that the same as a magnetic field theory in an alternator?  I can't test those theories until I have built coils worth testing it on...  Your pretty smart, so I figured I'd run it past you first....

@ Jason:  Same thing on your machine... Is there a reason you don't put more pickup coils around your machine?  Every movment of a magnet without it utilizing a pickup coil is a loss of efficency isn't it?  I wish I could test it and let you know, but I am very far behind you guys..   ;D

@ Nomen:  Thanks for the suggestion about the relay steel, I will check it out! 

@ Everyone:  The coil testing is now moving me away from high volts/amps, and is more configured on a perfect blend of turns, core, gauge, volts/amps (nothing new to you guys I'm sure), but I have learned that the perfect configuration will actually be substantially lower that what I had antipated.  Thanks for the warnings & hazards...  If I electrocute myself to death, I'll let ya know.. haha

Lastly.  WOW!  Do I have some interesting outcomes with coils!!!!!  I'm about 1/3 done testing and need to do some more before it is conclusive, however, by testing differnet configurations, I had one coil approx 1/2 inch thick was fluxing at approx 12 inches away!!!  Strong Flux!!!  (even accidental made a magnet gun/bullet.. haha).  Some of my theories were dead on, some exceeded my expectations, some were a flop....  I'll keep the press on till I get the highest quality coil, then share my results.. 

I'm about to buy a whole bunch more magnet wire (about 3000') at a different gauge (probably 24) and Re-Do all the test I have just run...  I'm really starting to dislike making coils!   :-\  Anyone want to make about 50 more different kinds of coils for me???   :D

Thanks again for your inputs, everything is of help to me right now... 

the reason?  $$$$$$$$$$$ . Lol. I dream at night of the copper fairy that leaves a 10 kilo spool under my pillow. Yes more coils will increase input+output. They require more precision in timing and layout, and if I havent throughly tested one single coil then I have nothing to compare the multicoil setups to.

Baker, get online (google or alternate search engine) and search for multimeter tips or tutorials. Learn the correct way to read your amp draw. FYI,  a motor that draws 6 amps @ 12v would require a 120amp hour battery to stay within recommended C20 discharge rates. Aim to get something that draw 600 milliamps before you even look at 6 amps, or 1 amp even.

If your coils are heating up then somethings not right, your flowing too much current through them.

24 gauge is a good starting point. And in regards to the pot, that should be obtained once youve built your circuit. Learn about ohms/resistance and things will make more sense. You'll probably look for a 1-3 watt 1k or 2k ohm pot for a basic circuit, smaller ohm (500, 200) for fine tuning.

About your pics, I can only say this. There are some interesting suggestions that if the weight on the secondary is equal to the weight of the primary the coils can resonate in tune. Position of these coils and how they are aligned with each other is something you will need to test yourself, I have not extensively tested them myself. Try your picture out. Use a thick wire on the outside and a thinner wire on the inside. Pulse the outside wire and send the inside wire to a bridge/cap. See what you get out. To do all of this correctly you will have to know your meter, so if you dont as yet, go study up!

bakercool,
Making coils is easy if you use a drill and a coil jig. making the motor spin should be no problem. I live in oregon....not far from you. i am will to open up full voice or type chat with you to help you get it running. just let me know.
Jason

@bakercool

here's a good looking coil winder that was pointed out by MrSpates today in the earth battery thread ..

QuoteFor those of you who wind coils, heres a link to a neat build it yourself coil winder made from an old microwave motor. Its strong cheap and easy to build and wood cones can be substituted for the metal fins.

http://solomonsmusic.net/coil_winder.html

tak

Hi all!  thanks for the help!

I made my big leap into the process last night.  After my post I ordered 2 - 1" x 12" x 12" acrylic discs, 3000' of 24 gauge wire, 10 1/2 ID bearings, and 10 more 3/4" x 3/4" N42 Magnets. 

I still have yet to find a timing/firing mechanism, and potentiometer.  I tried today, but the kids kept me pretty busy.  For my initial tests, I will be using an input of 12v/125amp power supply, but need to reduce it to 50ma-5amps @12v.  ARHH!  I wish I wasn't so stupid.   ;)
Do you think the transistors, diodes, etc you guys are using would work for the volts/amps I mentioned?

@Jason:  I got some cubscout things coming up, & need to finish my 59' Edsel.  Between those events I will be testing out some more coil theories.  I think I got a great start, but want confirmation before I jump the gun.  I look forward to you giving me a helping hand!!!! 

@Tak:  I use a Drill now and use my hand to guide the wire.  I just finished searching for "Coil Jig" and saw a lot of stuff, but nothing that will go faster or higher quality than my drill/hand.  I guess I have more of a machine in mind...  I do stabilize the wire, and put tension on it before I feed it onto the coil tho.   ;D   Thanks again for your help!

@ Ren:  I plan on running 8 coils (repulsion) for one rotor, and am already looking into running 2 rotors (16 coils).  I know what you mean about worrying about the timing.  I'm sure there is a solution though.  I looked online to try to understand a multimeter (I swear, I'm not completely stupid!  ;) ), then I went and tested the theory about the picture a couple posts ago.  I found one that one theory was wrong.  I received energy constantly (one theory I had was it would act like an alternator, only picking up on the pulse in/out).  Instead @ 6v/6amp I was getting 50ma constant.  Again, I still have a hard time reading it....  I hope that is good news.....
Also, I believe that Tesla already proved that if you used a higher gauge for your primary, then a smaller gauge for you secondary (pickup) you would increase voltage.  I'm not looking to increase voltage through his theory, more of collecting the energy that is dissipating from the coil the most efficient way I can find.  I hope that made sense.....

@ All:  I believe your all making the Bendini right now, and while I was searching I found this.  It looked pretty cool, so I posted it for your review.
http://www.syscoil.org/medias/pdf/documents/my_replication_of_windows_bendini.pdf

I hope this page gives some inspiration, and appreciate all the help you guys give!

Corey

@Ren:
Real quick, I think I have a much better setup than the picture I posted on the last page.  Hope you didn't waste any wire on testing it yet...  I'll post when I know more about some more theories on it...  :)

Corey

my wire is never wasted corey. I still have the first coil I wrapped in use. 

Corey, you need to grasp the concept of amp draw from your circuits. Firstly learn how to measure amps on your meter. Next wire up a 12v  light globe or small eletric motor and flow the current through your meter to determine how much current it reads. Most meters read current on an amp setting of 10 amps. This means anything under 1.0 is in milliamps. 0.25 would be 250 milliamps. Your coils, circuit and triggering frequency will all effect the amount of amp draw.

Then make a simple switch (mechanical switch that you can just push, a micro switch works well) and hook it up so your coil is off until the switch is depressed. Repel or attract magnets glued to a wheel depending on your configuration.You can learn alot from this alone.

Thanks Ren!  I'll give that a shot...   :)

Quote from: Ren on January 23, 2008, 06:29:08 PM
Getting some great results from my Bedini wheel on 24v. Ive realised that if 1 wants mechanical power a higher voltage is desired. It can run quite efficiently on 50 ma with decent speed/torque. Also my window motor is going well, it can be tripped into solidstate quite easily and has very interesting properties!

Ive uploaded another video to you tube, I'll have to make some more.

@Ren,
I meant to get back to you on this issue of mechanical power. As you may/already have discover/ed, 24 watts motor running on a Voltage of 24 Volts X 1 Amp, yields a higher mechanical efficiency than a 24 watts motor running on voltage of 12 Volts X 2 Amps.
Why? Power lost through Heat which is driven by current consumption.

But which has the maximum absolute torque? The less efficient 12 Volt X 2 Amps system. Why?. Because current does create the magnetic field strength of an electromagnetic core.

Is it possible to get the best of both higher voltage and higher current without actually contributing the higher current directly?
YES.

Ren you indicated that you were looking at mechanical efficiency in your recent switch to a 24 Volts supply. That's a good move to the higher supply, because it allows you to use high impedance coils (which you already are! 3000 turns? from memory?)

Try taking a lateral step sideways, and separate your drive coil function from your trigger coil function. You can do this by winding a fine
.1mm wire coil onto a small steel nail or screw core and using it as a separate trigger coil which can be physically placed wherever you want it. With fine wire you can wind 400-500 turns or more. By separating the drive and trigger coil, you can better adjust the actual pulse width of the trigger, but also more importantly the pulse angle with respect to the drive coil.

You may need to put a diode directly across the new trigger coil in opposite direction to the base to emiiter/sink connection of your Transistor/Mosfet. You can still use pots in line with the transistor to fine tune the pulse.

Now to the subject of higher current without paying the price of consumption. You may remember that efficient use of a collapsing field will be maximized when the total "Virtual Drive" pulse of the core is less than or equal to 50%. High impedance cores can have a long "time constant" when the Collapsing field is discharged through an electrical regeneration or torque enhancing circuit.

That's where a step-down transformer output coil and a tightly controlled short duty cycle come into their best effect.
Try winding a 150 - 300 turns high diameter (.62 - .8) coil outside your drive coil. The low impedance step-down coil when shorted by a Diode in the correct polarity direction, will provide a high current at the collapse of the main drive coil, but it will possess a short "time constant" and this will ensure a greater chance of the Virtual Pulse (usable Pulse) to remain under 50% and still be significantly longer than the Actual Pulse (current consumption).

Bear in mind, this will turn all the Collapsing EMF and "in-phase" rotational Magnet Induced EMF into mechanical torque, at the expense of CEMF electrical regeneration. Its' a choice of one or the other using this method.

Cheers from the Toad Who Hops  :)

how well does a perm magnet motor work if it is attracted to iron and then electricity is used to release it from that grip? i am reading mixed results as to the electrical input needed to release a magnet from iron, some say it is more effecient some say less in terms of torque vs current.

Quote from: Artic_Knight on February 05, 2008, 01:32:48 AM
how well does a perm magnet motor work if it is attracted to iron and then electricity is used to release it from that grip? i am reading mixed results as to the electrical input needed to release a magnet from iron, some say it is more effecient some say less in terms of torque vs current.

@Artic
"How well does a perm magnet motor work if it is attracted to iron and then electricity is used to release it from that grip? "

As with all motors that depends on many mechanical and electrical issues in the design of the motor.
How well it is machined, the mass and strength of the magnets, and the mass of the rotor and stator, coil winding type, iron core size, frequency of operation........, etc....
.
The stronger the magnet, and the closer it is to the iron, the more current will be needed for a given voltage to cause the magnet to lose it's grip on the iron.

@Artic
"i am reading mixed results as to the electrical input needed to release a magnet from iron, some say it is more effecient some say less in terms of torque vs current."

Put in its simplest form, the speed of any electrical motor without a load will increase or decrease depending on the Voltage. The actual torque (true grunt!  LOL) of the motor when mechanically loaded will be dependent on the current it can draw from any given voltage. The higher the current availability, the higher the torque will be. Classic examples of high torque DC motors are starter motors on the engine of a car. They consume huge amounts of current to deliver a great deal of torque during the brief time you usually take to start your car.

Any motor, if designed correctly for the load it will bear, can be made reasonably efficient, but normal Permanent Magnet DC shunt wound motors are hard to beat when it comes to needing a lot of true grunt (torque) in a little package!

For low powered, highly energy efficient motors, you can't overlook the motor that's turning your Hard Drive as a very good example. They are a closed magnetic system, pulsed motor, made with multiple coil phases and consume very little current. They function in a manner which is nothing like a normal PM DC shunt wound motor.

Most experimenters in this thread are experimenting with an "open magnetic system" motor, which have characteristics more similar to your Hard Drive motor in their mode of operation, utilizing a DC supply with pulsing circuitry to drive the motor coils.

Cheers from The Toad who Hops

well i dont know how much lb force i will need in the magnets yet since i have not started the design phase, hell i havent even started the testing! but what im looking for is the most electrically effecient motor i can get my hands on to power a car. i think its going to need to be 75-100 horse power. with that being said it sounds like a iron core sized to accept the full magnetic force without saturation is the best motor on an attraction phase with just enough current to release the magnet and considering there will be back emf it will need a design that pulls that from the windings and uses it in some manner for the motor. from what i have read a motor using 450 miliamp and 12 volt generally has 5 volt back emf at 150 miliamp, if that is used thats a good increase in effeciency over production line motors for sale today however how does that 300 miliamp draw compare to other motors of same torque?  so now i guess the only way to answer my questions is to test.

lets face it, if this motor is half as effecient as people are bragging then it will be much more effecient than todays motors. so now that raises another question... who killed the electric motor? :-p

To all;

I've been having mixed results (failures) for a long time now. Trying various configurations that approach unity but don't quite get there...
Latest thought is to now wind my Adams style coils on thin grade HOLLOW steel core of hopefully 1/2" diameter. Someone told me this configuration exibits much more power than any other core.
Just wanted to pass this one on in the hope it will help one of us to get-er-done!
Good luck all,

Carl

@Ren,
I meant to get back to you on this issue of mechanical power. As you may/already have discover/ed, 24 watts motor running on a Voltage of 24 Volts X 1 Amp, yields a higher mechanical efficiency than a 24 watts motor running on voltage of 12 Volts X 2 Amps.
Why? Power lost through Heat which is driven by current consumption.

But which has the maximum absolute torque? The less efficient 12 Volt X 2 Amps system. Why?. Because current does create the magnetic field strength of an electromagnetic core.

Is it possible to get the best of both higher voltage and higher current without actually contributing the higher current directly?
YES.

Ren you indicated that you were looking at mechanical efficiency in your recent switch to a 24 Volts supply. That's a good move to the higher supply, because it allows you to use high impedance coils (which you already are! 3000 turns? from memory?)

Try taking a lateral step sideways, and separate your drive coil function from your trigger coil function. You can do this by winding a fine
.1mm wire coil onto a small steel nail or screw core and using it as a separate trigger coil which can be physically placed wherever you want it. With fine wire you can wind 400-500 turns or more. By separating the drive and trigger coil, you can better adjust the actual pulse width of the trigger, but also more importantly the pulse angle with respect to the drive coil.

You may need to put a diode directly across the new trigger coil in opposite direction to the base to emiiter/sink connection of your Transistor/Mosfet. You can still use pots in line with the transistor to fine tune the pulse.

Now to the subject of higher current without paying the price of consumption. You may remember that efficient use of a collapsing field will be maximized when the total "Virtual Drive" pulse of the core is less than or equal to 50%. High impedance cores can have a long "time constant" when the Collapsing field is discharged through an electrical regeneration or torque enhancing circuit.

That's where a step-down transformer output coil and a tightly controlled short duty cycle come into their best effect.
Try winding a 150 - 300 turns high diameter (.62 - .8) coil outside your drive coil. The low impedance step-down coil when shorted by a Diode in the correct polarity direction, will provide a high current at the collapse of the main drive coil, but it will possess a short "time constant" and this will ensure a greater chance of the Virtual Pulse (usable Pulse) to remain under 50% and still be significantly longer than the Actual Pulse (current consumption).

Bear in mind, this will turn all the Collapsing EMF and "in-phase" rotational Magnet Induced EMF into mechanical torque, at the expense of CEMF electrical regeneration. Its' a choice of one or the other using this method.

Cheers from the Toad Who Hops  :)
[/quote]

Thanks for the tips Toad. I have tried the separate pickup coil and it works well. Definately something I need to experiment with.

I have a question regarding your comments about losses attributed to heat. I understand the principle of what you describe however I wonder how relevant it is to my build? I have approx 850 trifilar turns on my coil which displays no indication of any temperature change while running. Same with the circuit. Is there something I am missing...voltage drop across components? BUT is voltage drop over, say, a diode largely attributed to heat?

The small batteries I have been charging are sitting at 13.10 volts after resting overnight. I just drained one at its C20 and after 8 hours it rested at 12.57 volts.

I built another speed device which cranks, but draws a little too much for my liking. I might convert that to run off a separate pickup coil. Magnets are sealed in resin on this device which makes it alot safer!

Quote from: Ren on February 07, 2008, 04:45:58 AM

I have a question regarding your comments about losses attributed to heat. I understand the principle of what you describe however I wonder how relevant it is to my build? I have approx 850 trifilar turns on my coil which displays no indication of any temperature change while running. Same with the circuit. Is there something I am missing...voltage drop across components? BUT is voltage drop over, say, a diode largely attributed to heat?

The small batteries I have been charging are sitting at 13.10 volts after resting overnight. I just drained one at its C20 and after 8 hours it rested at 12.57 volts

I built another speed device which cranks, but draws a little too much for my liking. I might convert that to run off a separate pickup coil. Magnets are sealed in resin on this device which makes it alot safer!

@Ren,
I have a few questions of my own which will help you answer your own question.

What is the DC resistance of the drive filament of your 850 turns tri-filar coil?
What is the Copper weight of the entire tri-filar coil?
What is the Current Consumption of the motor at its full running speed without a mechanical or regenerative load?
Does the Current Consumption of the motor increase dramatically or moderately when a mechanical or regenerative load is applied?
Does the motor slow down considerably when a load is placed upon it?
What is the RPM of the rotor? And how many magnets on the rotor dictating the final frequency of the pulse at full speed?
Do you know the actual duty cycle of the pulse?

Does your motor take a while to reach full speed?
Is it easily stopped when running at full speed?

The answers to the first seven questions will help you to understand the answer to the last two questions and your question regarding heat.
If the answers to the last two questions are Yes, then you are running a low torque motor, because you are only consuming a small amount of current, even under load.

If this is the case, then voltage drops across the coil and all components in series with the coil will be minimum.
Less current, less heat in everything!

Because the coil has a variable impedance which is dependent on pulse frequency, then increased loading will cause increased current consumption as the frequency drops due to rotor slowing.

But the decreasing frequency of the pulses associated with a slowing rotor, not only causes a drop in inductive reactance of the coil, but also a drop in true applied power as the pulses occur less often in real time. So power consumption will not rise dramatically with a load, but there may be a considerable slowing of the rotor due to that load and a resultant diminished applied EMF (That is less current available under load than with normal DC).

The heat from a diode is the result of the voltage drop within the diode caused by the internal resistance to current of the diode. The more current a diode has to conduct, the hotter it will become. The power dissipation of the diode will be the Voltage Drop X Current.

Cheers All from The Toad Who Hops.........KneeDeep and Happy Motoring!  :)

What is the DC resistance of the drive filament of your 850 turns tri-filar coil?

By this you mean ohms? Around 17 ohms for each power coil. Theres two firing and the third is the trigger.


What is the Copper weight of the entire tri-filar coil?

I didnt measure, but I would guestimate at just over 750g

What is the Current Consumption of the motor at its full running speed without a mechanical or regenerative load?

I can vary current consumption. I am still testing. It will run on 25ma up to 300ma, higher with less resistance. I currently run it in between 60 and 100ma for a reasonable speed. This is without a load (well the wheel is 1.5 kilos +) BUT charging on the backend. Funnily enough it doesnt consume much more @ 24v.

Does the Current Consumption of the motor increase dramatically or moderately when a mechanical or regenerative load is applied?

Mechanical loading only causes the current consumption to drop as per all ssg circuits. I only ever run it with a charging bank connected as to ensure the safety of the circuit, i.e no blowing the transistors. Testing showed that current can drop a little when a charging bank is connected.


Does the motor slow down considerably when a load is placed upon it?

Yes, but you have to consider the scale. When a mechanical load, i.e. my finger :) is placed on the outer diameter the wheel will come to a stop quite quickly. When pressure is applied to the shaft it is significantly better for obvious reasons. Overall Im pretty happy with how much mechanical it can do for how little it draws.

What is the RPM of the rotor? And how many magnets on the rotor dictating the final frequency of the pulse at full speed?

An accurate RPM is unknown, there are eight north pole out mags.

Do you know the actual duty cycle of the pulse?

Woah easy tiger! lol. I wish mate. I only have the basics. DMM's etc. I want to save up for a scope and various other hardware soon.

Quote from: Ren on February 07, 2008, 04:00:39 PM
Overall Im pretty happy with how much mechanical it can do for how little it draws.
Woah easy tiger! lol. I wish mate. I only have the basics. DMM's etc. I want to save up for a scope and various other hardware soon.

@Ren , LOL   Just thought I'd fire from the hip with all the questions.! LOL sorry!
Will get back to you very soon. Teas on the table! Cheers

lol, all good shooter mcgavin, enjoy ya din din ;D

@Ren
" I can vary current consumption. I am still testing. It will run on 25ma up to 300ma, higher with less resistance. I currently run it in between 60 and 100ma for a reasonable speed. This is without a load (well the wheel is 1.5 kilos +) BUT charging on the backend. Funnily enough it doesnt consume much more @ 24v.
Mechanical loading only causes the current consumption to drop as per all ssg circuits. I only ever run it with a charging bank connected as to ensure the safety of the circuit, i.e no blowing the transistors. Testing showed that current can drop a little when a charging bank is connected."........................................

Ren, assuming a Voltage supply of 24 Volts, then at 100 milliAmps the total power consumption of the circuit is 24 x 0.1 = 2.4 watts (forget duty cycle and assume straight DC for the purpose of simplicity.)

Now assume the worst, and your motor's electricity to motion efficiency is only 50%, then a maximum of 1.2 watts would be wasted as heat energy. Thats not a real lot of wasted power, and your coil has 3/4 of a kilogram of copper mass to effectively dissipate it. It should heat only very slowly.

Now assume optimistically, that your motor's electricity to motion efficiency is 80%, then a maximum of 0.48 watts would be wasted as heat energy. Your coil with its great mass would probably not notice a thing, because copper is a great conductor and radiator of heat to the environment.

Again assuming a Voltage supply of 24 Volts, then at 25 milliAmps the total power consumption of the circuit is 24 x 0.025 = 0.6 watts
Assuming the worst again and your motor's electricity to motion efficiency is only 50%, then a maximum of 0.3 watts would be wasted as heat energy.

Assume optimistically that your motor's electricity to motion efficiency is 80%, then a maximum of 0.12 watts would be wasted as heat energy.

It's very easy to see why things remain cool. We're not talking very high power wastage figures here. Throw in a few downward adjustments to your meter readings due to actual duty cycle, and the power consumption (and heat loss) is less than you think - Thats where your desire to get an oscilliscope (scope) is in need of fulfilling. Good luck with saving for your measuring  hardware! It aint cheeeep cheeeep! KneeDeep  :D

I see. So something that draws more should show some signs of heating. My window motor draws up to 1 amp and the coil can get slightly warmish. Its alot thicker and shorter though, being about 1mm thick. Transistor doesnt heat at all though. Im tossing up between a traditional scope and a usb one.  They are both in the 300 bracket.

I meant to ask too. I have been looking for an expanded analogue meter that reads between say, 10 and 15 volts, primarily for battery voltage readings. You mentioned somewhere that you had switched to these in an attempt to clarify your readings. Can you tell me where you got yours?

Quote from: Ren on February 08, 2008, 03:15:59 PM
I meant to ask too. I have been looking for an expanded analogue meter that reads between say, 10 and 15 volts, primarily for battery voltage readings. You mentioned somewhere that you had switched to these in an attempt to clarify your readings. Can you tell me where you got yours?

@Ren,
I bought mine via a catalogue from JayCar Electronics. I'd been to Sydney to visit a friend for a few days and popped in to JayCars for a browse and grabbed one of their catalogues. I ended up buying two analogue meters with a maximum range up to 20 volts and 10 Amps. They are Russian built and weren't cheap at the time. I paid $65.00 each for them, which was a lot of money in 1991 ! But they were worth the investment. Especially since I couldn't afford a scope which averaged around $1000 +  at the time.

" Mechanical loading only causes the current consumption to drop as per all ssg circuits."...................

This makes sense (I keep thinking traditional Adams motors, but you're using a sensor pickup coil). When the rotor slows, the voltage and current available to the sensor coil decreases, which in turn decreases the amount of signal to the switching transistor, which in turn decreases current availability to the drive coil. In effect, the SSG arangement is a self protecting one, in which it is nearly impossible to burn out your main drive coil due to excessive loading.

" Testing showed that current can drop a little when a charging bank is connected."........................

This is a very good indication that your motor is running harmoniously and that the regenerative circuit is not causing the Virtual Duty Cycle to exceed 50%. - Well done.!  ;)

@Casman - You may be failing at achieving O/U, but I'll wager that you are creating some highly efficient motors, and having a lot of fun while you're learning from your constructions.  ;)

Cheers All from The Toad Who Hops  :)

Thanks Toadie.

I'm well known there (Jaycar) but I asked about it and they dont have anything like it. I read about a way to modify a normal meter with resistors etc to read your desired range somewhat. Otherwise I am at a loss. I have a good analogue meter up to 250ma but it reads in 10v and 50v increments, making it pretty much useless for voltage tests on 12v batts.

I am starting to see the effects of this charging on the battery too. It only starts to happen when the battery is charged and discharged repeatably daily.

I am building a bicycle wheel rotor at the mo... 16 poles NSNS config to experiment with pick up coils etc. Already twisted and wound a trifilar awg 18 approx 150 feet for a decent sized coil! I want to create a commutator which will accomodate various functions, one being backpopping the primary. I still have a bit of work to go, but I'll post some pics soon.

Im glad that the sg circuit is very sturdy. I dont think I have blown one when its been installed properly.

Quote from: Ren on February 08, 2008, 09:48:47 PM
Thanks Toadie.

I'm well known there (Jaycar) but I asked about it and they dont have anything like it. I read about a way to modify a normal meter with resistors etc to read your desired range somewhat. Otherwise I am at a loss. I have a good analogue meter up to 250ma but it reads in 10v and 50v increments, making it pretty much useless for voltage tests on 12v batts.

I am starting to see the effects of this charging on the battery too. It only starts to happen when the battery is charged and discharged repeatably daily.

I am building a bicycle wheel rotor at the mo... 16 poles NSNS config to experiment with pick up coils etc. Already twisted and wound a trifilar awg 18 approx 150 feet for a decent sized coil! I want to create a commutator which will accomodate various functions, one being backpopping the primary. I still have a bit of work to go, but I'll post some pics soon.

Im glad that the sg circuit is very sturdy. I dont think I have blown one when its been installed properly.

@Ren
Good luck with your next round of experiments. The dual pole magnet configuration and tri-filar drive coil will allow for a very wide range experiment parameters, especially if you include the option of a separate trigger coil as well. Then you can play around with all three filaments in your drive coil. I have no doubt you will be surprised by the results of certain configurations!

Pulsed motor systems are full of fun surprises, e.g. Doubling the supply voltage does not automatically double the current draw, but always increases running speed. Think about Inductive Reactance and how it increases with frequency!

Your existing 17 ohm's DC resistance coil filaments can easily exhibit a total Impedance at 1000 RPM of 300 ohms or more. With the rotor spinning  1000 RPM, with 8 magnets, the pulse frequency will be 8000 PPMin which is 133.33 PPSec. Double the number of magnets (i.e 16) with the same rotor RPM will result in a pulse frequency of 266.66 PPSec.

You'll notice a much greater output from any pickup coils that you add to the perimeter of your motor, than the output from the a mono pole arrangement. Also, the power signal generated in any separate pickup coil will be true AC. In a mono pole arrangement it is actually a varying DC signal which mimics to some degree, true AC, but it is DC just the same.

I did a quick google for analogue meters (Australia only): heres the results page below:
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=analogue+multimeter&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU

Cheers and KneeDeep  :D

@ Ren -

P.S    Re your next rotor build:

Because you will be using 16 magnets, but dual pole, not mono pole, you will only double the pulse frequency harmoniously by having two separate trigger coils and transistor switches, each to take advantage of pulsing the separate drive coil filaments with the correct polarity for the magnet pole it is facing at the time of pulsing.

Cheers and KneeDeep  :)

Quote from: casman1969 on February 05, 2008, 12:56:40 PM
To all;

I've been having mixed results (failures) for a long time now. Trying various configurations that approach unity but don't quite get there...
Latest thought is to now wind my Adams style coils on thin grade HOLLOW steel core of hopefully 1/2" diameter. Someone told me this configuration exibits much more power than any other core.
Just wanted to pass this one on in the hope it will help one of us to get-er-done!
Good luck all,

Carl

Hey Carl - I have little bit of information regarding hollow cores. I posted it on my site some time ago. I used hollow cores in a number of experiments and was very pleased with the outcomes. You may (or not LOL) benefit from the info I posted.

Go to this link first:  http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/
Then click on page 4.   I hope this info is useful to you.

Cheers from the Toad Who Hops  :)

Thanks Hoptoad. I will have to search around for the right meter. I am looking forward to the completion of this one. I noted that in effect it would only pulse on every second pole if setup in SSG circuit. Have you ever tried wrapping a coil bifilar and have a separate pickup for each winding, one to fire on the north and one to fire on the south?

Thanks for the notes on how the coils impedance will change during pulsing. If I understand it correctly as the frequency of the pulsing rises the resistance of the wire changes. I guess this would explain how there are so many variations in results when considering everyone has such different geometry.

Quote from: Ren on February 09, 2008, 08:15:36 PM
Have you ever tried wrapping a coil bifilar and have a separate pickup for each winding, one to fire on the north and one to fire on the south?

If I understand it correctly as the frequency of the pulsing rises the resistance of the wire changes.

@ Ren
In answer to your question, the answer is YES, and it is very effective. If you are using transistors to do your switching, then a diode from ground (emitter) to the collector on each transistor will allow the Collapsing EMF from each coil to feed directly back into the supply. Each coil will be mutually co-operative in applying power and regenerating the power source. If you wish to off-load the CEMF, then forget the Diodes and make use of the third coil in your tri-filar arrangement to off-load via a full wave bridge. You will get true AC from the third coil as the pulses in each drive coil should be opposite in polarity.

You can also try a different method of off-loading in which you connect a full wave bridge between the collectors of the two transistors. Your drive coils should be on the collector side of the transistor not the emitter side, if you choose this option.  Again, the efficacy of off-loading this way will be dependent on the duty cycle of each pulse. Keep your duty cycles low, preferably around or below the 20-25 % mark. Your motor should still run harmoniously without causing torque loss when off-loading the CEMF to an external battery, if the applied pulse/s duration/s are kept short.

If you are using Mosfets, there is every likelihood that they will have a sink to source diode built into them. This will mean that off-loading the CEMF to another battery will be less effective because the circuit will be automatically trying to offload the CEMF directly back to the power source via the inbuilt diodes.

As the frequency of the pulsing rises the DC resistance remains constant, but the inductive reactance increases. This means the  Total Ohms (impedance) of the coil when the motor is running will be a vector addition of the constant DC ohms (resistance) and the inductive reactance (impedance). The best thing about inductive reactance is that while it impedes current in direct relationship with frequency, it does not cause power loss due to heating. That is, there is no associated I^2*R losses with impedance, like there is with resistance.

Cheers from the Toad Who Hops  :)

i understand the principal of pulsing, its a known fact that even factory made electric motors suffer no noticable loss in performance if the electrical input is regulated in equal pulses of off and on. however i do not understand the back emf. i know what it is however how is it collected? is that what the outer coil is used for? and can the firing coil be set up with a diod to collect back emf?  does collecting the back emf for use have an impact on the motors performance verses not using the back emf?

Quote from: Artic_Knight on February 09, 2008, 11:22:42 PM
i understand the principal of pulsing, its a known fact that even factory made electric motors suffer no noticable loss in performance if the electrical input is regulated in equal pulses of off and on. however i do not understand the back emf. i know what it is however how is it collected? is that what the outer coil is used for? and can the firing coil be set up with a diod to collect back emf?  does collecting the back emf for use have an impact on the motors performance verses not using the back emf?

@Artic
You are correct that even factory made electric motors suffer no noticable loss in performance if the electrical input is regulated in equal pulses of off and on. Pulse Width Modulation is the preferred means of controlling all DC motors.

It may be tedious reading, but the answers to your questions might be on Pages 2+3 and Following Pages at this link below :

http://www.totallyamped.net/adams

Cheers from The Toad Who Hops  :)

@ HopToad

Thanks for the link, it helps to clarify. I'm going through various common steel tubes to see which ones will work the best but as usual it will be trial and error. In the link, you said they work better as pickup coils and I do believe it but I'm more focussed on the drive aspect.
Can you suggest the optimum AWG wire size for drive coils if I'm using 2 X 1 X 1/2 N42 Neos?
Currently using 20AWG and have a single winding resistance of +/- 6 ohms and can adjust my input to approximately .1 amp. This arrangement gets me pretty good BEMF on second winding and I feed that serially to three more pickup coils giving me a FWB rectified 49V which I'm pulsing (10K MFD cap) back while motor is between drive pulses. Damn thing will go figuratively forever with very little drop on battery. Yes I'm learning and yes I'm having a ball. Thanks for your research and good work.
I check up on this site every day (work does have a way of interfering!!!)
Thanks again,

Carl

Hello All!

    I'm almost done restoring my 59' Ford, and still waiting for a lot of the stuff I ordered to come in (like the rotor, etc).  I'm hoping to start building my motor in about 2-4 weeks, depending on delivery.. EXCITING TIMES!!!!   ;D

    I have been searching desperately to find a way to take a car battery, and reduce the voltage down to about 12v - 5amp (or less amps).  I hooked up a potentiometers, but it just went POP! and that was the end of that.   :P

    Do I have to buy/make a circuit to reduce the amps coming from the battery?  I thought I would only need a resistor, but the ones I bought just overheat real fast.  Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

    Corey

@bakercool,

The way I control current flow in my motors is by adding or decreasing resistance (with resistors) to my trigger coils. Hope that helps.
Jason

@Nomen
I looked into the resistance in the coil, but want to run specific amounts of turns.  Thanks for the input though!

@Jason,

Thanks!  I tried some resistors, but they all overheat superfast.  Is there like a resistor "number" I can get from you?  I'm having a hard time figuring these things out..  I got a DC Converter so I can continue to test my Coils from 5-24 Volts, that should be cool...  I need to get my amps down though..  Thanks Jay!

Quote from: casman1969 on February 10, 2008, 02:19:22 PM

I'm going through various common steel tubes to see which ones will work the best but as usual it will be trial and error. In the link, you said they work better as pickup coils and I do believe it but I'm more focussed on the drive aspect.

Can you suggest the optimum AWG wire size for drive coils if I'm using 2 X 1 X 1/2 N42 Neos?

Currently using 20AWG and have a single winding resistance of +/- 6 ohms and can adjust my input to approximately .1 amp.

@Casman

To see any real difference in operation with hollow cores, you need to compare apples with apples (hollow). By basing the outer dimensions of your hollow core, on the dimensions of a solid or laminated or air core that you're already using, a reasonable comparison of the differing properties of each core can be made.

Assuming your supply is 12 Volts, then "+/- 6 ohms" (is that six ohms)  DC coils wound onto hollow cores of the same diameter and length of a solid core, should yield very good comparative results.

Hollow cores will have less inductive reactance than a solid core due to the lesser amount of core material, but a greater current consumption associated with less reactance should be offset by an increase in the rotor speed due to lower magnetic drag . This raises frequency and causes reactance to rise again. Its a game that pulse motors play  :D

To increase impedance of a coil (on any core), you can (a).Wind more turns on your coil, (b) increase the diameter of the core (c) increase the length of your core,  or  (d) any combination of all three methods.

Make a coil based on what you already have, then learn and proceed from there. Then you can decide yourself how to redesign your coil to best utilize the positive benefits of a hollow core, and how best to solve the inadequacies of low impedance cores.

I am glad you are going to experiment with hollow cores. I hope you discover something that I haven't.
I don't want to steer you too much in any direction with hollow cores,I  would rather let you find out whatever there is to find out by experimenting yourself, and reveal your results to all of us here, because an objective, untainted "fresh" opinion about them is welcome and needed....KneeDeep  ;)

Cheers from the Toad Who Hops   :)

Baker I struggled to come to grips at first with controlling amp draw. Its not as simple as plugging a hole so less comes out. Then again maybe it is. You will need to build your circuit and test various resistances and configurations WITHIN the circuit to vary current draw. You simply cant place a choke on one end.

Well, you can, sort of. I see the coil as being similar to a choke. The thinner the wire and the more turns creates greater resistance (travel path) for the energy to flow. The pulsing aspect will also do this too as current is being switched on and off.

This is why I recommend a Bedini build for your first. Its so simple and schematics are everywhere. You will get results if you follow the instructions, and you will have something that works.

You will also have a better understanding of the components and general assembly of your motor which will allow you to move forward onto better things.

im very confused about back emf and cores now. from what i have read in this forum the best core is an air core, from what i read about the adams motor the best core is an iron core.

the Adams pulse motor uses a perm magnet and uses the pulse of electricity from batteries to positively attract the magnet, then when the magnet is within range, the current stops the magnetic field that was in the iron colapses and creates a reverse current that pushes away, so now for the same pulse of an air core your getting both the pull and push for same energy. a much better deal if it works.

however this group does not agree? has anyone tried this particular method?

and now there is 2 different descriptions of back emf, if they are the same please let me know, however now we have a reversal of the magnetic feild with or without the perm magnet to produce it. and it appears this reversal counters the attraction the magnet has on the iron and with enough force even repells!

does anyone have a good idea about these forces? if theres a website that is good too.

ok i found some websites but im still confused at the moment, maybe i can figure it out later.

the motor layout i have seen on one website uses iron core that is positively magnetized and the magnet is attracted to it, then the current stops and the magnet is pushed away from the magnetic field collapsing and reversing?  but your talking about taking this back emf in the form of electricity and reusing it?

Artic I too get a little confused with all the "emf" terminology. Hoptoads page explains it well, but it still isnt quite clear in my head yet.



I see there being two ways to operate an "Adams style monopole motor" You can wire your coil to fire in attraction or repulsion. But if your clever you can benefit from both styles. My monopole fires just after dead center, repelling the magnet closest, but at the same time attracting the scalar south from the next magnet. So it kind of harnesses both attraction and repulsion. A break down of the SG bifilar monopole would be as such:

coil (off) with no magnet in the vicinity.
Magnet approaches coil (off) attracted to the iron core inducing voltage through both wires.
Trigger winding in turn uses the small amount of voltage induced to "fire" the power winding, completing a circuit momentarily around the iron core.
Coil(now on) magnetizes core and becomes an electromagnet of same polarity to rotor magnets.
Rotor magnet is push/pulled away and induced voltage dissipates from coil, shutting off circuit and collapsing magnetic field.
Collapse is collected and cycle repeats itself.

This isnt how all styles of pulse motors work but it is a basis for basic models. It can work slightly different in that the pulse attracts the rotor and switches off at the precise moment as to prevent the rotor hanging up in the magnetic field.

I like to see it like this. You can collect the collapse of the coil and other associated energies with the appropriate circuitry, of which most is covered at the totally amped page. How you chose to store and reuse that energy is up to you. There is plenty of different ways to trigger your circuits to fire and plenty of different ways to collect that which is normally wasted.

@Artic
quote ...
im very confused about back emf and cores now..........
and now there is 2 different descriptions of back emf, if they are the same please let me know..........

Its easy to be confused when common textbooks use the words back emf to describe two different phenomena. Yes, there are two different forms of back emf. To avoid confusion there are other names used to descibe the two forms.

1. Back EMF (Counter EMF) is normally only associated with an electric motor. It arises in opposition to the Applied EMF (your current source) when the motor is on and running.

This form of back emf occurs, because the rotor, as it turns, acts like a generator, but with opposite polarity to the applied voltage. If the back emf was equal to the applied emf, the motor would continually stall. But the beck emf is always less than the applied emf, so the motor will turn and continue to run. This is true of ALL motors.

2. Back EMF (Collapsing EMF). Also known commonly as "fly back". This can occur in any type of pulsing system, but only if there is inductance in the circuit.

This form of back emf is caused when the current which is flowing through the coil is suddenly turned off. The magnetic field of the coil collapses, and induces a voltage potential which is opposite in polarity to the original applied voltage. This potential can be transformed into usable power in the form of either electricity, mechanical torque, or a combination of both. Tapping this form of back emf for re use can be successfully achieved in numerous ways.

Cheers all

P.S. @All, in reference to my last post
Back EMF (1.)  also known as Counter EMF is "Counter Productive"
Back EMF (2 )  also known as Collapsing EMF is "Collectible"
It also becomes less confusing if you apply the alternative names for each type of emf, all the time.

Cheers all  :)

ok so this isnt going to change me proving it for myself but has anyone tried a positive attraction and with the collapsing magnetic field repulsion on the magnet to push it away?

seems to me if you positively attract a magnet first and then in dead center of the iron core stop the current it should stay on the iron core, of course unless its actually creating this reverse repelling force then it will drive the magnet away.

on a side note you will find a picture from the adams page, now according to the page if you connect A and B you will get the back emf. if the current is reversed then you need the negative pole or collector of the cap at A and the positive at the diod B and this is supposed to catch flyback but if it does then you dont need the diod, if it does catch the back emf it will also collect the battery power because nothing is blocking it, shouldnt the drive curcuit be between the powersource and A on the positive side?  and for "flyforward" or normal current you connect B and C now the negative or collecter should be on C and the emmiter going to A if you do not want it reused right away and stored for another pulse right?

my understanding of the back emf is that the electric current reverses and by this diagram and some miricle i now think i understand how to collect it.

but the reversing of the magnetic fields... that doesnt sound right.  mind you im not saying its not possible cause i have started to see many things in modern science that were not possible 6 years ago and now the very same people are going "look what i made!" funny, i could have told you back when it wasnt possible how to make it like a rail gun. just use powerful ac coils ;) 

any hoot thanks for being patient and assisting me with this!

@Artic

quote.....  but the reversing of the magnetic fields... that doesnt sound right.....

When the applied coil current suddenly ceases, The magnetic field doesn't reverse, it collapses and induces an opposite voltage potential at the collector which is connected to point B via an output diode. When this potential is directed via the diode and a load (usually) back to point A, it forms a current loop within the coil, the diode and a load. The current flows in the same direction though the coil as the original applied current.

This causes the magnetic field to collapse slowly instead of immediately, as the recirculating current maintains a degree of magnetic strength for some time after the applied voltage and current has been turned off.

The + ve of the collapsing field voltage occurs at the collector and current goes from collector through diode to point B which is now a decoupled +ve with reference via a load to point A, (for fly back) and a higher value decoupled +ve (for fly forward) with reference via a load to point C. In both instances, the positive of a capacitor or battery load should be connected to point B as shown in fig 7 on page 3. on my site

In all instances, the current through the coil itself, will be in the same direction. (if you've wired it correctly)  :D

The diode must be inserted between the collector and the load  (in the circuit shown), or the load will simply be in parallel with the drive coil (fly back) or in parallel with the switch (fly forward). In both cases, without a diode to decouple the output, the result will be poor performance at best, or a blown transistor Mosfet switch at worst. Both no no's  :(

Cheers from Hoptoad  :)

for flyback:
so if you have a negative potential at point B and the diod is allowing flow in which direction? from the coil to point A? then the only flow i can see is the unused electricity or potential work still available in the curcuit to get resycled which you referr to flyforward. if its negative then the positive current or the direction its flowing is back at the + pole of the powersource the other direction? ive never heard of a negative value moving in the positive direction. i will try it dont get me wrong! but i just dont see it! my grandfather is a electronics inventor and based on his teachings which are partly text book part trial and error he has never heard of such a feat.  it wont cost me anything to try since i will be using a breadboard i can just shuffle the curcuits around.
seems to me whith that kind of set up the cap would become charged from the powersource and never fire since the diod will not permit the reverse in direction.

this is baffleing but thank you for the time you have spent with me.


EDIT:   wait i see what your saying! but im not sure if a "collapse" is the best way to describe it!   ok so the electrical current is fed in from the - end to the + end of the coil this makes a magnetic flow that moves from - to + now when you stop feeding it the leftover magnetic current is funneled back into the coils going in the same direction from -to + so essentially the magnetic current is obsorbed back into the coils and if it was normally induced into them. ok! now there isnt a need for a cap since your going to route the current directly back into the coil to let the natural resistance of the coil wear it down slowly, so you connect via a wire piont B to point A right? the diod lets all positive current flow more directly back to the coil keeping its polarity for longer requiring a shorter pulse draw from the power sorce reducing AMPs.   right? when everyone was talking about a collapse i was thinking the magnetic current reversed. but thats what i read on the origional adams motor! hmm, thats what doesnt make sense and thats where the confusion is coming from, how is this "collapse" reversing the magnetic flow and having power to "push" the magnet away? seems to me its just cutting off and letting the magnet fly right by!

one quick question, the Transistor type curcuit that blocks the flow after the coil, does it need to remain there or can it be moved/paired  with one/an additional curcuit near point A on the positive side to block the powersource?  this website said its more like a guideline and not text book so im under the impression there shouldnt be a difference?

Quote from: Artic_Knight on February 13, 2008, 03:33:14 PM
one quick question, the Transistor type curcuit that blocks the flow after the coil, does it need to remain there or can it be moved/paired  with one/an additional curcuit near point A on the positive side to block the powersource?  this website said its more like a guideline and not text book so im under the impression there shouldnt be a difference?

@Artic
With the circuit polarity as it is shown, moving the coil (and diode and point B and point A reference) to the emitter side of the transistor will still result in Fly-Back availability from the coil at point B (which would now be on the -ve rail of the supply) with reference to point A which would now be connected, along with the top of the coil, to the emitter.

But the DC Step-Up Function provided by a Fly-Forward load path from point B to C will no longer be available or even exist, because point B will be at the same potential as point C.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D3318.0%3Battach%3D17529%3Bimage&hash=6c5593433961f4ab4491e14d4d291629903f7a0b)
Generally you do not use the emitter side of the transistor to place your main power load, because it is a common current path shared with the transistor's base to emitter current. (the controlling signal path).

You can put the coil on the emitter side if you wish and still get some pleasing results, but generally speaking, you would normally drive a power coil load between the Supply and the Transistor Collector, as shown above. But as previously stated, it is a guideline, not a gospel.

You can create as many pulsed transistor/coil configurations as your imagination, electronics understanding, desire to learn and preparedness to do experimentation will allow.

P.S. The symbols in the circuit diagram are for Mosfets, but the general switching principle of the circuit is the same for transistors.

Cheers from Hoptoad

that brings up another question that has been bugging me. i dont understand the difference in B and C. there is a diod needed yes but if the energy is leaving the coil that has not been used it is collected by B and if the mag field colapses and creates another current again B can grab that can it not? i understand one of them is on the other side of the switch but the switch is not changing the current just completing the path, so the same current before the switch should be after the switch as well right? seems if you connect 2 diods they would just share the load perhaps not a bad thing considering its a redundant curcuit and redundancy is good. or maybe im missing some principle here?


EDIT: well with looking at this specific curcuit there are other items on the board that are dumping potentially unused energy so C would collect the energy from the rest of the board while B collects from the coil exclusively. and if you wanted this coil to continue to run after the switch has been turned off you would need B to keep it going.

ive noticed a lot of pulse motors on youtube and all are fairly recent.  does anyone here have a good working pulse motor?  the videos i see either light a light with the back emf or possibly run part of the motor even charge a capacitor. no one outright shows the measure of the current they are producing verses the input atleast not to a satisfactory condition that i have seen so far.  does anyone have a good video of someone measuring the output verses the input and preferably even checking the torque to some degree? 

the you tube videos i like currently still do not show any measurements of this to a satisfactory level. but he created a pulse motor then made a home made alternator and attatched that. all of it appears to be combined as overunity but there was no real measurements to honestly back it.

i suppose i wont know till after i have mine working..

Quote from: Artic_Knight on February 14, 2008, 12:06:19 PM
that brings up another question that has been bugging me. i dont understand the difference in B and C. there is a diod needed yes but if the energy is leaving the coil that has not been used it is collected by B and if the mag field colapses and creates another current again B can grab that can it not? i understand one of them is on the other side of the switch but the switch is not changing the current just completing the path, so the same current before the switch should be after the switch as well right? seems if you connect 2 diods they would just share the load perhaps not a bad thing considering its a redundant curcuit and redundancy is good. or maybe im missing some principle here?

EDIT: well with looking at this specific curcuit there are other items on the board that are dumping potentially unused energy so C would collect the energy from the rest of the board while B collects from the coil exclusively. and if you wanted this coil to continue to run after the switch has been turned off you would need B to keep it going.

@Artic
Point C is the common return or "sink" path for all the applied potential in the circuit, and regenerative potential, if a Fly Forward load path is used from Point B to C .

Point B is the "source" path for stored energy released by the collapsing magnetic field through the decoupling diode . It can be connected in a Fly Back (feedback) loop path, in Reference to Point A, or it can be connected as a Fly Forward DC Step Up switch bypass in Reference to Point C.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D3318.0%3Battach%3D17529%3Bimage&hash=6c5593433961f4ab4491e14d4d291629903f7a0b)
You cannot effectively use fly-forward and fly-back loading at the same time It's one or the other, but not both.
Fly Back is the most beneficial and commonly used method for gaining increased pulsed motor efficiency.

The biggest difference between Point B and C is that point C is a constant negative voltage reference point, while point B has a variable voltage potential with respect to point C and Point A, depending on whether the switching transistor / Mosfet MQ3 is turned on or off.

Point A has a constant positive voltage reference to point C but has a variable voltage reference to point B.

You can connect directly from Point B to A without a load, but you cannot connect directly from point B to C without a load, because the coil will remain on at the same current level at all times, regardless of the state of the transistor switch.

Cheers

@ Hoptoad

Still have'nt wound my hollow cores yet but have found a slightly different arrangement that improves efficiency. Simple reed switch to a relay for drive and the same for dumping charge back into battery.
So far, have 8 hrs where my scope voltage has not changed. Steady at 25V. Yes it jumps a bit ( .1V)every time I dishcharge back into the battery but losses are absolutely at the minimum.
Work is keeping me from the next step but I'm pumped!

Carl

Quote from: casman1969 on February 15, 2008, 04:42:43 PM
Work is keeping me from the next step but I'm pumped!
Carl

Way to go Carl  ;) :D

Came in this morning and now find my readings are 25V (same as yesterday except it does now bounce down to 24.9V). What this proves to me is that all of us are fighting the battle of losses.
We loose it in the transistor or Mosfet or any mechanical switching such as commutators. Every .3 or .6v drop counts, at least in my setup. So from now on I'll be concentrating and experimenting with two things. First is to add large cap and a coil to keep it charged up enough to drive the relays and second to add pickup coils to feed more generated juice back to the battery. Both require more and different guages of wire. I'm now thinking all my pickups should be 24AWG instaed of 20. Will continue to use my Adams style drive coil(s) (I change it up) as my current draw on this 23" wheel with 12-2 X 1 X 1/2" Neos is now down to under 50ma or less (hard to tell with my analog 5A panel meter. It barely moves the needle off zero but still gives 120 rpm.
Hoptoad, I'd be open to suggestions as to overcoming these losses. More pickups? different switching? Don't really know at this point but what I do know is that the marriage of Adams and Bedini works well. Yes I'm still using the collector diode with the relays and it still works just fine.
Can't wait to get a little down time to wind my hollow cores.

Carl

ok, if i connect a diod from C to B and from the end of the coil to B essentially that allows any "energy" that is in the circuit to continue flowing to the positive side of the coil when i add a wire or connection from B to A... why cant you collect from both B and C at the same time? one is the curcuit discharge the other is coil and your still allowing a negative return path to the battery essentially providing the battery the "Loop" it needs to produce the "energy"  i can see where your  coming from with most of the motor and circuit setup thus far and thank you very much for helping me with this i have learned a great deal! but now i do not understand why 2 diods cannot be used one to collect at C and the other B and allowed to flow to A? as i look at them they could be properly isolated to prevent a short or reversal of currents so why would it not work?

my current understanding of electricity is that you can add different voltages throughout a curcuit, for instance fly back of 5 volt + fly forward of 1volt +battery voltage of 6volt = 12 volt into coil and it can vary or some of the votages come and go with no ill effect and with the diods to control flow minus the resistance of the diod should be added current reguardless of sources right?  perhaps the reason the flyforward doesnt work well is after the voltage is considered - the resistance of the diode theres nothing much left? but something still is and can be added?

thanks for all your help thus far and in the future! i hope one day soon to be able to contribute something to this group. i just got some supplies and i will be making the magnetic rotor very soon! soo excited.

Double post. Deleted

@ Artic quote......i just got some supplies and i will be making the magnetic rotor very soon! soo excited...........................

That's the best way to go Artic.  ;) When you build your own working circuit, you can measure parameters as you are making changes to your circuits, and the results will not only answer most of your questions, but will be more fun acquiring, than just questions and answers alone.

@Casman  quote.......
Came in this morning and now find my readings are 25V (same as yesterday except it does now bounce down to 24.9V). What this proves to me is that all of us are fighting the battle of losses. We loose it in the transistor or Mosfet or any mechanical switching such as commutators.

Hoptoad, I'd be open to suggestions as to overcoming these losses. More pickups? different switching? Don't really know at this point but what I do know is that the marriage of Adams and Bedini works well. Yes I'm still using the collector diode with the relays and it still works just fine. Can't wait to get a little down time to wind my hollow cores.................................

Carl, if I knew how to overcome these losses, you'd already be buying motors and generators directly from me!  :D
The real 64 million dollar question is, can anyone overcome these losses?. Oh and by the way, you forgot about the loss due to resistance, of the coil itself!  Dang it !

If you've got an unlimited budget, you might wind your coils with palladium wire onto an amorphous ferrite core and have it super chilled in liquid nitrogen!  But that only takes care of coil losses  :(  Theres still pesky little losses in the switches and diodes. Maybe they can be superchilled too ? Either way, the total solution is way out of my budget, and probably yours  too   :(

In the meantime :

Optical signal switching combined with Mosfet power drivers, offers the lowest signal loss with the greatest signal timing accuracy and variability.

Multiple drive coils will generally increase the relative efficiency of the motor. Multiple drive phases, will definitely increase the relative efficiency of the motor. That is, a three phase motor is generally more efficient than a single phase one.

High impedance coil systems, reduce relative system losses due to heat, but are not conducive to high mechanical torque production.
But you can get around this with a low impedance secondary winding, using ordinary transformer step down effect.

High speed / high frequency pulse motors are more affected by inductive reactance.
This can be a very good thing!!!!

Cheers from Hoptoad

who cares about losses? what we need to look at is getting the motor to run itself.  after maximizing the motor as much as we can, try having it power a generator, check the power in verses the power out by the generator and we will know if it can power itself and as such we will know of its effeciency!  one thing i like about these motors is if you buy an RC car motor it has caps to ground out electro magnetic interference with the radio on board, what about connecting a diod on that motor directly from negative to positive? most likely wont do any good in the real world because it uses a comutator or such but if it didnt and the coils remained connected. how much current would it draw? how much horsepower could it produce and inevitably how much electricity could it make?  i personally am looking to limit the draw as much as possible and keep the horse power. it would be nice however if i could also make a model with the sole purpose of keeping caps charged to power the other motor :)  and you know there are some really nice caps out there!

so its been difficult but i am waiting the final hours for the rotor to harden. i used resin to encapsulate my magnets. i had to cast a rotor first then drill the holes and put the magnets in with additional magnets on the rotor to keep them in place, (2lb neodium magnets) and now they are sitting in the second resin casting to keep them in place. once done i can rig up the mount for the motor us it to round the final shape of the rotor (need to make sure its balanced and as thin as possible) then im ready for the coils and curcuits! ohh the excitment! hopefully i can get a generator constructed from this rotor that will do some good work, idealy it will generate enough power to power a second motor configured to run a go kart. the first step in taking over the world! MUAHAHHAAHA ok so maybe this isnt dexters laboritory but hey this is some fun stuff! 

whats the most powerful magnets someone is using on this forum and how is it working for you?

Im using  n45 2 inch by 1 inch round neos in my experiments. however my adventures are now towards hydrogen production and the implementation into a Vehicle.
Jason

Honk,
Hope your HHO project is going well...
Changed up a few things here and finally see some positive progress.
1. Changed drive to relays. Two, switching two Adams style coils (bifilar) at different times.
2. 3A reed switches to adjust pulses on coils.
3. Center tap on coils (both) is feeding a 10K uf 60V cap which, by use of another 3A reed switch, is feeding back to the primary battery through a 5W 2ohm resistor. Have been using another coil (not Adams style) to charge a 47K uf cap which in turn gives the relays switching power.
4. Draw on input is +/- 250MA
5. Feed back to battery is pulsing over 500MA
6. All magnets (12) are north facing out.
7. Two small magnets @ 180 degrees on the inside close to hub are pulsing the reed to feed current back to battery. Started with a freshly charged battery which sat for a day and started at 12.95V
8. After 5 hours I am watching the digital oscope bounce between 12.97 and 12.93 staying in the 12.94 range on average.

Next step will be to add my third drive coil and take the center tap voltage off of it as well and further charge the cap.

One coil needs 24V to operate O.K. but with two alternately pulsed coils I can use a simple 12V
HR9-12 UPS battery. Very stable and has some torque.
Took the relays out of some old UPS units.
Timing is good, pulsed recharge is good, now to further refine before putting on bigger wheel. Current wheel is only 23".
Bottom line is this.., Very high efficiency with more power to capture.

For those of you who are still working on pulse motors I'd like to give you a source for some really great reed switches. Gopher Electronics (ph 651-490-4900). They have switches that will do 3A continuous and 6A peak surge. These are working out GREAT for me in place of the dreaded commutator. Allow for faster recharging of Bedini style motors when dumping voltage to a battery from a cap. Have charged 2-9AH batteries from 12.4 to 13.3 and am cuurently charging what I think is a bad 400MAH battery which started at 11.35 and after 1hr is up to 11.84. Drive battery is recharging itself and started yesterday morning at 12.95 and is now down to 12.8. I was'nt trying to do the Bedini thing but it looks more and more like that's where this pulse motor is heading. By the way, my drive battery is another 9AH. Will swap it out when It gets down to 12.5 or so. Will have charged 3 before that happens.

Carl

I?m trying to optimize pickup/generator coil design, construction and implementation.
After days/weeks reading and experimenting I?m still unsure what approach to use.

I?ve got a CDR rotor with (6) 0.75" Diameter x 0.25" Thick NdFeB N42Grade N42, BrMax: 13200 gauss Disc Magnets arranged N/S/N/S/N/S.  The rotor is spun at a set 120 RMP. Generator coils are placed on both sides of the rotor - like a Muller generator.  I want to generate as much output as possible ? irrespective of the drive aspect (excluding air gap) and send to a battery.

Generator coil considerations:
1)  Core: 
a)  Material:  Hex bolt? (head out or in?)  Welding rods?  Hoptoads wall anchor sheaths idea? (I haven?t tried this yet ? anyone? )  Iron filings with resin?  ?Black sand??(exotic ? where to find?)  Shotgun shot? Air?
b) Size:  Half the diameter of the windings?  Same height as windings ? or double?

2) Windings:
a) Single ? bifilar?
b) Wire size:  #26 AWG ? good balance of resistance/ampturns/voltage/current?
c) # of turns:  100?  350?  1000?  2000?
d) Size:  Twice the width of the magnets - same?  Same height as width?  Ideal dimensions?  Cone shaped?
e) Wrapping:  masking tape every layer or only 1 on the core?  Wrap with finished coil with electrical tape?

3) Arrangment (horizontal):
a) # of coils:  As many as possible?  Same # as # of magnets?  Twice?  Half?
b) Ideal spacing:  must have ?x? inches between them?  Pack them together as tight as possible without touching?

4) Circuit:
a) Coil connections:  All in series for voltage?  In parallel pairs for amps?
b) Full bridge rectifier:  All coils in series connected as a connection to rectifier?  Rectifier size/type?
c) Capacitor:  Place between rectifier and load (battery) for smoothing?  Size?  Send to load continuously, when half full, full?  How to control this?
d) Transistors?
e) Diodes?
f) Optical timing:  usage/parts (why aren't more people using this rather than hall/reed switches?)

There are ton of great info and people here in the forums.  I look forward to any/all responses and assistance.  I will update the post that follows this with solutions I will implement.

Thanks!   

CH

Generator design implementations.  Answers to be updated as they are determined.  Please add to/suggest/discuss/dispute results.

1)  Core: 
a)  Material: Quote from Hoptoad: "I can't overstate the positive aspects of the "Alloy" nature of the sheaths. When comparing like for like with ordinary soft iron which I did in later experiments, it became very obvious that the huge gain in voltage and current availability was due to the nature of the core material. (The shape still matters - see updates on my site)"
b) Size:  Muller design: 1 to 1 ratio to magnet.  1" diameter magnet = 1" diameter core.  Seems big...  Implementing .5 - 1 ratio.  A .25 - 1 suggested by Casman - will try that to.

2) Windings:
a)
b) Wire size: 
c) # of turns: 
d) Size: 
e) Wrapping: 

3) Arrangement (horizontal):
a) # of coils:
b) Ideal spacing: Muller design: Same as magnet diameter. ie: 1" magnet = 1" spacing

4) Circuit:
a) Coil connections:
b) Full bridge rectifier:  Quote found from Ren: "I then wired each coil to each other and only ran them through one bridge and found slightly better results."
    I purchased (2) Full Wave Bridge Rectifiers from Radio Shack:  1.4A, 100V Full-Wave Bridge Rectifier
    Model: 276-1152   $1.59 each
c) Capacitor:  I purchased from Radio Shack: 1000uF 35w part 272-1032
d) Transistors?
e) Diodes?


CH

Quote: Nastrand2000 "It is an air coil run through a full wave bridge rectifier. I don't how many turns, however it is bifilar wound 24 gauge and 2 inch in diameter by 3/4 inch thick."

Jason, you have made alot of coils.  Everything I've read would indicate (for my application) an air coil would result in the lowest current production.  If I understand your application - you are trying to minimize rotor drag.  Do you have comparsions between an air core and an iron core? (for generation)

Also - a 2" diameter by 3/4" thick coil is short and fat - rather than most builds I've seen using taller/skinner ones.  It seems to me short and fat would work better for pick up coils.  Is that your experience?

You are using bifilar - I guess to implement pulse/pickup in same coil.  Would bifilar offer advantages to a coil used only for generation?  Why/why not?
- - -
Ren - you have got a SWEET setup going!  I would love to hear some advice from you  :D

Quote from: casman1969 on March 04, 2008, 01:28:01 PM
Honk,
Hope your HHO project is going well...
Changed up a few things here and finally see some positive progress.
1. Changed drive to relays. Two, switching two Adams style coils (bifilar) at different times.
2. 3A reed switches to adjust pulses on coils.
3. Center tap on coils (both) is feeding a 10K uf 60V cap which, by use of another 3A reed switch, is feeding back to the primary battery through a 5W 2ohm resistor. Have been using another coil (not Adams style) to charge a 47K uf cap which in turn gives the relays switching power.
4. Draw on input is +/- 250MA
5. Feed back to battery is pulsing over 500MA
6. All magnets (12) are north facing out.
7. Two small magnets @ 180 degrees on the inside close to hub are pulsing the reed to feed current back to battery. Started with a freshly charged battery which sat for a day and started at 12.95V
8. After 5 hours I am watching the digital oscope bounce between 12.97 and 12.93 staying in the 12.94 range on average.

Next step will be to add my third drive coil and take the center tap voltage off of it as well and further charge the cap.

One coil needs 24V to operate O.K. but with two alternately pulsed coils I can use a simple 12V
HR9-12 UPS battery. Very stable and has some torque.
Took the relays out of some old UPS units.
Timing is good, pulsed recharge is good, now to further refine before putting on bigger wheel. Current wheel is only 23".
Bottom line is this.., Very high efficiency with more power to capture.

:o......... ;)

Hello!

Here is some detailed info in reference to the Muller generator design.  Some new/different/interesting design ideas are presented for coil construction.
I?m very interested to hear comments on aspects of these coils. (and on my previous posts  :P)

- - - - - -

By using a core that is basically hollow with only a small amount of metal - such as a tube versus a solid rod, there is less steel to attract to the magnet, but the coil can still produce a great deal of voltage and current. (same idea as hoptoads)

The coil core is equal to the diameter of the magnets. The wire is wound around this core. For example for a 1" diameter magnet, then the core will be 1" in diameter, and the wire will be wound around that.

The Coils are wound on 1" diameter Amorphous Magnetite cores which minimize losses by hysteresis and heat generated by Eddy currents common in other core material choices. The Magnetite is a fine (350 mesh) powder which is mixed in a ratio of 70% Magnetite / 30% Fiberglass Resin to form solid round rod-shaped core slugs upon which each coil is wound.
Magnetite ((Fe3O4) is known by a variety of names. Black oxide of Iron, Magnetic oxide of Iron (it will stick to a magnet), Iron(III) oxide, Loadstone (an impure form occurring in nature and used as an Iron ore). It can be purchased from Ceramic supply stores as black Iron Oxide fairly cheaply.
(source for this material??)

All Coils are wound with 52 turns of  #12 Magnet Wire in a conical fashion which flare away from the Rotor to minimize the effect of magnetic drag on the Rotor's RPM as current draw from the generator increases.
(#12 sure is large! And 52 turns isn't very many!)

A unique zero resistance core design where an increase in the current required by the load results in no resistance to the magnet motion past the coil core, the design for a normal solenoidal coil has the wire wound from top to bottom and as the magnet passes the coil, the resistance to its passage increases as the load current requirements increase.
This new design has a core where the winding begins roughly 1/3 to 1/2 down the length of the core and the windings increase in turns as it approaches the bottom of the core, taking the form of a cone with the apex pointing up,
(seems like a waste not having wire on the top third?  But the reverse cone may be a good idea?)

Quote from: capthook on March 07, 2008, 01:17:10 AM
A unique zero resistance core design where an increase in the current required by the load results in no resistance to the magnet motion past the coil core, the design for a normal solenoidal coil has the wire wound from top to bottom and as the magnet passes the coil, the resistance to its passage increases as the load current requirements increase.
This new design has a core where the winding begins roughly 1/3 to 1/2 down the length of the core and the windings increase in turns as it approaches the bottom of the core, taking the form of a cone with the apex pointing up,
(seems like a waste not having wire on the top third?  But the reverse cone may be a good idea?)

Hmmmmnnnn.........Very interesting  ...  KneeDeep !   :)

Wrapped and tested pickup coils today (6 different).  Being a newbie at it ? I did it by hand as drill winding ended up with sloppy results.  As long as that takes ? I?ll have to just practice the drill winding!!  Masking tape used between layers ? if for no other reason than it made it easier to keep things neater.  I?ve got more designs to try ? but here?s a couple of the results.  Voltage induced given as a reference. 

Air Core:  .2 volts.  300 turns #30 wire.
Crap!  Easy to wind though ;-)  And no drag.

Standard coil:  .4 volts.  40? # 22 wire.  Core: 3/8? x 3? hex bolt.  Windings 1? L x ? W.
(edit: I forgot resistance - 1 ohm)
Getting coil close enough to create better voltage created large drag.

Hollow core:  .6 volts.  70? #26 wire.  Core: 3/8 x 3? anchor sleeve.  Windings 1? L x 3/4 W.  Core flush with windings at the face. (edit: resistance - 3 ohm)

Best voltage.  Lowest drag.  The hollow cores definitely offer superior performance if for no other reason than reduced drag allow for a decrease in the air gap.

Conclusion for today:

Hollow cores ? or at lease thin tubing filled with something like a powdered iron mixture will offer superior drag reduction offering higher output over a solid core. (thanks hoptoad!!!!)

Not sure on ideal wire size ? as I used different sizes ? guess that?s for another day?..
Thinking #24 might be the sweet spot. (I don?t have any!)

Keeping the core flush with the windings rather than extended appears to offer performance gains as well.  An extended coil "heel" "probably" offers benefits as well.

On the hollow sheaths I used:
They are a ?generic? brand ? unsure of composition ? I?ve been unable to locate the ?Ramset? brand ? even on the internet (anyone know where??)   However, they are silver in color ? rather than copper looking ? and they are two separate pieces rather than one piece like hoptoad shows.  A hunch would be the Ramset composition would be superior ? but ? the two piece construction may offer additional eddy current ?dampening? over the one piece?  (Hmmm - then again - this might move the bloch wall further into the center reducing induction.  Even combined as 1 piece via tape/solder/welding etc. ?? )

Hoping for some input??..

Guess I?ll wind/test some more tomorrow?..I'm thinking shorter and fatter.

@ CH

Muller style coil is 1 to 1, core to magnet...
Adams style is .25 to one. This is what I'm using and it works great.
Hollow core is giving great results for my drive coils. Bifilar wound.
Center tap on drive coil is tied together and I use this connection with a single diode to feed the charge cap. Charge cap reaches > 17V before dumping to battery. I'm sticking with hollow cores for now and when time allows, will use the same for additional pickup coils.
Drive = 20 AWG +/- 5 ohms per winding X 2 (bifilar)
Pickup/generator coils will be 24 AWG. Will try single and bifilar on these as well and will have to test for best size. This is how I will utilize the aditional torque this motor has to offer.
Also something to think about would be having one drive in push and the other in pull mode. That way I can take the center tap and effectively double the output to the cap. Still working out the mechanics of that setup but I'm sure it will involve more reeds. Timing is everything!
Another thing is determining the length of the coil. The best I've found was on the Adams motor site and is quite simple. Put your magnet on a smooth level surface and use a paper clip. Move the paper clip closer to the magnet and mark the spot where the magnet picks up the clip. This will be your true field strength. I'm using N40 Neos 2 X 1 X 1/2 (72 lbs pull force) and found the length of my coils to be 4". Hope this helps.


Carl

Carl - thanks for the excellent info!!

"Muller style coil is 1 to 1, core to magnet...
Adams style is .25 to one. This is what I'm using and it works great."

I was already compromising with a 3/8" core as my mags are 3/4" diameter. (.5-1) - I guess I'll try .25-1 the less metal drag the better!  I'll post the voltage comparions between the two.

"Hollow core is giving great results for my drive coils. Bifilar wound."

What are you using for your coil material?  My next winding I'm going to try bifilar with #22/#26.
Is the "face" of your core flush with windings or extended?  Seems to me flush is better....

Are you doing DC (N/N/N) or AC (N/S/N/S)?  If AC - I guess you're rectifing before cap. (sounds like it)  Are the coils wired in series before the bridge?  And shouldn't you use a full-bridge to utilize both cycles?

I read something somewhere for the 1st time yesterday - with N/S mags (AC)- your coils need to alternate in winding direction if connected in series. ie: coil 1 clockwise - coil 2 counter-clockwise.  I've never heard that and don't know if it's valid.....

Also - I'm using silicon based full-bridge rectifier (Radio Shack 276-1152).  I've read this creates a .7 volt loss where as a germanium material is only .4 volts.  Where to get this better rectifier?

"Charge cap reaches > 17V before dumping to battery."

How are you controlling this?

"Another thing is determining the length of the coil. The best I've found was on the Adams motor site and is quite simple. Put your magnet on a smooth level surface and use a paper clip. Move the paper clip closer to the magnet and mark the spot where the magnet picks up the clip. This will be your true field strength. I'm using N40 Neos 2 X 1 X 1/2 (72 lbs pull force) and found the length of my coils to be 4". Hope this helps."

I had somehow forgotten this!  Of course I should utilize full field of these strong magnets!  ::)
Doing this gives me 1 3/4" - thus 1 3/4" winding depth with a matching 1 3/4" "heel" (total 3")  Guess I need to add some depth to my windings!  Your coil length of 4" - if I'm reading correctly - this is the winding length.  Are you employing a "heel" beyond the windings?
(edit:  I'm not sure how the "heel" /wire/bloch wall depth relate to each other and affect performance...ie: adding a heel reduces coil depth requirement as the bloch wall (magnetic center) is drawn outwards via heel)

(edit): I see you're using reed switches.  Have you considered Hall or optical switching?  Seem to be a more elegent/efficient design.  I've got optical switches to hook up - thinking I'll like that best.
Can anyone provide details on comparions of Hall vs. optical?  (voltage losses etc.)

And yes - this info has been a tremendous help.  Thanks so much!!

(please let me know your core material  :) )

CH

Removed by request

oops ,,,,deleted,,,, double post....KneeDeep

Score!!  I searched the Ramset catalogue.. http://www.ramset.com/ and couldn't find any "anchor bolt" products.  I was thinking they have discontinued that line...  As a former framing carpenter - I am familiar with the Ramset powder gun loads - but always used "RedHead" (I think) anchor bolts.

I would love to get my hands on some!  I look foward to the information you can gather and would be interested in securing some.

On a side-note:  Do you have some clarification to offer on "heel" length?  Same heel length as wire wrap?  Heel will move bloch wall out - thus reducing wire wrap depth requirements?
(edit: "quit peculiar" ?- do tell..)

And thanks for the work you put into your circuit pages..... some of it is still a bit over my head - but I'll get there!

Hop on! 

Removed by request

Thanks for the further insight hoptoad - good stuff!

I have sent the following email to Ramset:
_ _ _ _

Hi Ramset!  I/we/hoptoad at the Overunity.com forum have been discussing applying the Ramset anchor bolt sheaths for use as a core in pulse/generator coil construction.  He mentioned that you may have information in regards to this.

Hoptoad has done promising experiments using these sheaths as coil cores.  He/we have been curious as to the composition of the sheaths as well as how to obtain them for further study.

I searched the catalogue at Ramset.com for anchor bolts - nothing found.  This let me to the assumption that this product line has been discontinued. 

Is that so? Do you know where/how to obtain these items?  And details on their composition?

We have been discussing this in part on this thread:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3318.375

Please consider joining the discussion there :-)

Any information you can/wish to provide would be of interest.

Let me know - or post the relevent information on the forum at the above link.

Thanks!!!
_ _ _ _

I'll post here anything I hear.  Thanks for the resource hoptoad.

Anyone interested in more detail on the sheaths in discussion and in circuits in general should check out hoptoads excellent site.  http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/


CH

Hollow core is 1/16" thick and 1/2" diameter. Don't know why Snamaki had problems with his but I'm liking these ALOT!

CH
Thick end of coil is closest to the magnet and they are all oriented N facing out. Overhang on other end of coil is 2" which allows me to mount them in a block of wood
I really can't explain why the BEMF I'm getting off the center tap peaks so high (I just disconnected the load and watched the cap go to over 20 V very quickly) off of 12V input but I'm certain it has to do with the Tesla effect similar to his findings on a bifilar pancake coil. Can't use a FWB rectifier in this situation. If I were to have two coils firing at the same time I could but until I start adding more of them it's not viable. Half wave still producing nicely.

Picking up some aluminum frame material to finish my 7' wheel. Made it once out of pressure treated wood but the wood started to warp and really messed things up. Not this time. 20" diameter, 1/4" thick rotor hub with 8 arms ( 3' long) attached is the new plan with the frame being 1.5" X 1.5" X 1/4" thick  square tubing. Will post pics once complete. Getting help to lock 1/2" drive shaft to rotor so that I can use the extra torque. Hopefully I'll be driving a windmill generator. Had to trade an older computer for this stock.

Keep on pulsin,

Carl

Oh, and by the way, both the optical and hall timing have one thing in common. They both rely on a drive ckt with will naturally have losses. It has always been my intent to reduce those losses and for that reason I chose the reed/relay combo. No drag and absolutely minimum losses. Timing to your individual needs can be accomplished in a variety of ways. Diectly off the rotor mags or you can add a disk with magnets and test various sizes for pulse width. Either way these new high current reeds are a blessing.
The only electronic parts other than the relays that I'm using are load limiting 5W 2 ohm resistors going to the charge batteries and of course the 10K uf 60V cap.
Hop this helps.

Carl

Well Carl I've tried them all and for me the best combo is an optical switch and a Darlington pair. (OPB490 series made by Optek Tecnology and a TIP 102).
Tropes

@Tropes

I'm always open to different ideas..,
Would you be so kind as to draw this ckt. I'll test it for sure.
Bedini SSG  setup was my original ckt and had no way to attach (shaft) for any optical sensor. Guess I could just use strips on the face of the magnets for starters but my magnets have a way of shifting positions ever so slightly. That's why I'm moving to the big wheel. Maybe then I'll be able to test various other timing ckts.
Thanks for the input.

Carl

Carl
Sounds like your problem is physical- mechanical rather than electronic. An optical switch may not be for you. The best person to ask for circuit setups is Gyulasun.
Tropes

Gents  Im working on this anchor sleeve info  will have something hopefully monday late  as I am once again traveling   Chet

@ Carl - Thanks for the core dimensions you are using.  What is the material of the core?  An anchor bolt sleeve etc. ?   :)  As far as the optical switch - you can get non-slotted devices that may make it easier to implement.  Timing/duty cycle can be adjusted more precisely as well. (and you don't get the noise clatter!)  Here is an example of a simple setup:  http://www.simplemotor.com/kit7.htm

Also - how are you controlling the cap dump >17V you mentioned?  I look forward to your pics!

@ Ramset - Thanks for the reply!  I look forward to what you find out!!

- - - -

Wrapped/tested more generator coils today.  Drill wound - I got the hang of it.(I was crazy wrapping those other ones by hand!).  Masking tape wrap between each layer.  Tested with small N/S rotor and through full-bridge.  All coils had:
Coil core: 3/8" x 3" anchor bolt sleeve. 2 wraps of masking tape to start.
Coil windings: 1" x 1"  - winding face flush with core. (thus 2" heel)  1 wrap electrical tape to finish.

1:  AWG #26  1 volt / 9 mA / 3 ohm res.

2:  AWG #30  4.5 volts / 25 mA / 20 ohm res.
Best results of any of the 10 coils I've wound so far - by HUGE amounts.  The greater # of turns in the same dimension coil must account for it.  But 4.5 times volts and 3 times the amps over the first coil? I like! 8)

3:  Bifilar:  AWG #22/#26  .8 volt / 8 mA / 1 ohm res.
The bi-wrapped coil doesn't seem to offer any advantages as a generator coil.  Gonna stick with 1 wire.

Well - I've spent a couple weeks trying to maximize generator coil output.  Getting max power out is such a huge part of the equation IMO.

Out of wire - gonna order some.....
Next wraps will be fatter.  1" h x 1 1/2 " w.  1/4" core instead of 3/8".  I'll compare #26 and #30.  #22 and larger wire doesn't seem to be the way to go.  Not enough turns...

Quote from: casman1969 on March 09, 2008, 11:27:39 AM
The only electronic parts other than the relays that I'm using are load limiting 5W 2 ohm resistors going to the charge batteries and of course the 10K uf 60V cap.
Hop this helps.
Carl

@casman
Hmmnnn........it's always the seemingly unexpected that keeps me hooked in these forums. A resistor, a capacitor, an inductive supply.......hmmn need some time to see what's constant here. Maybe good impedance matching with a dash of perfect timing harmony....? KneeDeep.

Casman, you seem to be achieving exceptionally good results regarding total charging capability. Do you have scope/s to measure with ? Just curious.
Also what is the duty cycle of the cap dump to battery (approx), and what is the main driving circuit duty cycle (approx)?
I'm asking, because it bears a great relevance to your measurents of current input to driver and current output to battery.?
If you are using a scope, you will be able to calculate much more precisely true current readings. Current is everything in a battery powered system.

If both duty cycles were the same, then with 500 ma output versus 250ma input at the same input and output voltages of say 12Volts, I would be shouting EUREKA I've done it.  :o

I'm all ears to what happens next..... KneeDeep  ;)

By the way ALL, I never once in many years of research succeeded in achieving O/U and I have stated that a number of times. Whilst I'm glad to have helped you get this far in your search for O/U, it is obvious to me that from this point on, you are all the teachers and I am just a student.

I quoted the following statement on another thread and I'll repeat it again here. It's not my own, I just like it  :)

"If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always had"

So to achieve O/U you obviously need to try something that I and many others haven't.    Good luck all  ;)
Happy motoring pulsars..... KneeDeep  :)

Mornin Hoptoad,

I will give you precise pulse lengths as best I can. Only have my single trace digital oscope and meters to work with...
I can tell you this for sure... 250ma is the constant draw from my drive coils (total).
The 500ma going to the batteries is doing so 2 times per 360 degrees of revolution. If I take out the load resistor my analog  5A  amp meter swings wildly and appears to be peaking at arround 3A.
Even though My hopes are up, don't get the wrong impression, This is NOT O/U at present but it is getting enticingly close. Let me try to get my camera to take shots of the scope. It supposedly will interface with my PC so that I can save this data. Clearly now is the time to do that. Be patient for these pics as I have'nt tried this yet.
I must thank this site and Gnosis for getting me to work on this project even though I started doing experimentation long before Mikes motor was all the buzz. You, and all who contribute have helped and I thank you.
I'm at work/play now so in between customers I'll get this setup for scope shots.
The thing is, I want to find a good machine shop arround here to fabricate, with my aluminum, a solid stand and a balanced wheel. I have two choices. First is a 4' diameter wheel and the second is my 7'.
This is proving to be the greatest challenge of all my work. Wish Paul Sprain would contact me as he seems to have some contacts that could help and lives fairly close by.
Will get those shots as soon as possible and post.

Carl

Hey Hoptoad,

Here is a collage of shots that may help.
Starting from upper left, going right and then down.
shot accross drive coil 1
"           "                    2
Wheel setup
Pulses from Reed to battery
Voltage on cap from center tap of coils, not discharging
Relay number 1 10A @120V
Voltage on battery that was running these shots (must have let it drain for the past couple of days)
Cap 10,000 uf @ 50V, Max 65V
Batteries being used for testing.
I may hve shrunk these up a bit too much, let me know.
Any specific shots you may want, just let me know.

Any one particular shot I can post seperately for better clarity.

Carl

Here's a shot you may like...
It is the center tap of one of the drive coils in relation to ground (- of battery).

@Casman,
It is a little hard to see the pix, but I think I can see enough. Judging by the waveforms, they are voltage Traces? If so, then an inverse (almost) of the waveforms would apply in calculating current. However even assuming they are voltage, judging by the waveforms, I would say that you are actually using less current than your meters say. But you are probably also producing significantly less output current than appears to be evident. The sudden short burst of current from capacitor to battery is causing large peak currents to weight the average current reading towards the peak current reading.

Analogue meters are better than digital meters at averaging this current reading, but still fail to reflect a true average when pulses are intense, and large, but for a very short duration.

Still, even stating this, the fact you are able to charge, not one but two batteries, with such little drop in supply voltage, suggests very high performance. Well done Casman  ;)

Hopttoad,
Thanks. Now I'm just embarrased by my rinky-dink scope and ordered a PC dual trace yesterday. You're right of course on the pulse width of the charge ckt. Making improvements every day but would really like to break the supply battery + then pump my charge back into it. Running out of those 3A reeds but boy do they come in handy.
Dual trace will at least allow me to time it all MUCH better than at present. I will mechanically shorten those drive pulses.

I will get-er-done!

Carl

Oh, and by the way..,
Those pulses you're seeing that going to the charge battery did'nt come out quite right. They are much more uniform 20V+ peaks with a litle more duration. Don't know how that pic occured but shortly thereafter the digital scope said enough already and quit. Time to retire it.

One thing to help make your reed switches last longer is to use them to fire your trigger coil instead of your main coil.
Jason

I ran across this excellent site that provides extensive wiring/coil/generator/motor details/theory/construction.  I learned a ton!
http://www.stanford.edu/~hydrobay/lookat/pmg.html

On Ramset sheaths - it appears "Redhead" anchor bolts are a subunit of Ramset.  Redhead bolts can be found at HomeDepot.  However, they are silver in color rather than copper looking - so the material composition is different than hoptoads examples.
Testing coils using a core of only the sheaths has not proved promising.  The sheath structure may be beneficial - however - they still need something inside of them other than air IMO.  I've decided to go with 3/8" x 3" Redhead anchor bolts as the core - bolt and all.  The smaller "head" at the end of the bolt over a hex bolt at least results in less drag.

I would still love to hear results of any with experience using magnetite cores.  Has anyone tested these? Anyone know of a source to order "magnetite"?

CH

@capthook
Ramset sent me this information below, a few days ago. It may help in identifying the difference, if any, of the two sheaths, that is, the one I used, and the one you have presently. The sheaths I used were manufactured in the late 1980's and I purchased them originally for use in building my home in 1990.

Quote Ramset :   "HOP these anchors were made in Australia  I T W  still owns both companies    DYNABOLT GOLD   was the name when we had them forsale in USA  I asked my brother to check our old stock   which he will do tomorrow   However In discussing with USA engineering  product was manu. to ASTM spec grade 5  still have more info to follow  If any of your crew is was a contracter in Australia call Ramset there ask for specs for bidding a job     submittle info    Chet"

It is quite possible that the alloys are the same, but with a different coating, or they are completely different.  :D :D. Hopefully you may receive more info from fellow overunity.com forum member, Ramset.

Cheers ......KneeDeep

Thanks hoptoad!
- - -

Can someone give me power consumption comparions between using a Hall IC and a Optointerrupter as a switching device?  Optical will offer me greater control - I would prefer it - but the lowest total power cost is what I need.

What are the voltage drop comparisons?  What about duty times?  An Optointerupter will shine all the time while Hall IC pulses.  Hall IC leakages etc.....

Which solution will result in the least amount of power consumption?

Links to datasheets if that helps in answering......
(Hall: http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Part_Numbers/1101/1101.pdf
(Optical: http://www.optekinc.com/pdf/OPB355-360to390-820-860to890.pdf)

Thanks   :)

CH

Quote from: capthook on March 17, 2008, 07:52:48 AM
Can someone give me power consumption comparions between using a Hall IC and a Optointerrupter as a switching device?  Optical will offer me greater control - I would prefer it - but the lowest total power cost is what I need.

What are the voltage drop comparisons?  What about duty times?  An Optointerupter will shine all the time while Hall IC pulses.  Hall IC leakages etc.....

CH
You can use a separate circuit (1.5-2v rechargable battery) to power the LED side of the optointerrupter. No power surges, no fried Hall sensors.
Tropes

This is an example of Gyulasun's circuits for dummies like me.

Tropes -
Thank you for the info and the circuit diagram!!  A picture is worth 1,000 words!

With power losses/consumption of the switching method being the primary concern - I have to agree with casman - a reed switch is going to offer the best solution.  I want optical - would like Hall - but I can't stomach the losses!!  I guess sometimes a club (low-tech) is better than a cannon.

CH

What?s the best/most efficient/least losses way to rectify a 3-phase, Y-configured AC output to DC battery?

I?m trying to finalize my circuit/wiring for my low RPM ? low voltage motor/generator.  I plan on using three-phase, Y-configured wiring for my output so that voltage adds.  This is the way to go ? yes?
From there ? I need to rectify.

An aspect of most rectification is a loss from peak input voltage to the peak output voltage, caused by the built-in voltage of the diodes (around 0.7 V for ordinary silicon p-n-junction diodes and 0.3 V for Schottky diodes).

Bridge rectification for three-phase AC will have a loss of three diode drops. This may represent significant power loss in very low voltage supplies.

And what if I wanted to implement a voltage-doubling rectifier?

What is the best rectifying circuit solution to provide the lowest drop?  Schottky ? MOSFET ? SCR ? Germanium etc??.?

I understand Schottky setup (like picture below)? clueless on aspects of the others??.
It sounds like MOSFET will further reduce voltage drop? (eliminate .9v diode drop)
How to use MOSFET if so??

CH

==============
Info compiled from the web:

Instead of using a readily-made rectifier, use 6 schottky diodes 1N5818. This way you reduce the voltage drop in the rectifier from 3 x 0.7 = 2.1 V to 3 x 0.3 = 0.9 V

- - -
Metal-Oxide Semiconductor, Field-Effect Transistor
In recent years semiconductor synchronous rectifiers have been designed; using MOSFET transistors, they can also rectify with a very low forward voltage drop and have the additional advantage of being able to switch at extremely high speeds. Semiconductor synchronous rectifiers are now widely used in those electronic power supply units designed for very low output voltages (where the voltage drop in an ordinary rectifier would represent an unacceptable fraction of the total output voltage).

The synchronous rectification is a technique for improving efficiency of power converters in power electronics. It consists of connecting a diode and a transistor (usually a power MOSFET) in parallel. When the diode is forward-biased, the transistor is turned on, to reduce the voltage drop. When the diode is reverse-biased, the transistor is turned off, so no charge can flow through the circuit. This way, a rectifying characteristic is obtained, without the forward voltage drop associated with diodes in the on-state.

Paralleling two MOSFETs reduces the losses further, whereas paralleling several diodes won't modify their threshold voltage.
- - -

Quote from: capthook on March 17, 2008, 10:29:17 PM
Tropes -
Thank you for the info and the circuit diagram!!  A picture is worth 1,000 words!

With power losses/consumption of the switching method being the primary concern - I have to agree with casman - a reed switch is going to offer the best solution.  I want optical - would like Hall - but I can't stomach the losses!!  I guess sometimes a club (low-tech) is better than a cannon.

CH

CH
I'm glad to hear you have found the best solution for your set-up. It took me years going from Star commutator to Reed switch to Hall IC to Optointerrupter.
Tropes

There are still losses in the reed switch which are photonic, acoustic, and mechanical.

But IMHO, the small plasma arc that is created in both a reed switch and a star commutator, or any other mechanical contact arrangement, is the real curiosity here.

Classic theory states there are always losses. Yet Tesla began his lifelong pursuit of tapping "that great energy" after studying the sparks produced by momentary (mechanical) switching of DC into inductive loads. The sparks intrigued him. Much later he would refer to radiant energy when he spoke of them.

Whilst opto-coupling will give you far better accuracy, reliabilty, etc, than any other switching method, it may not be the best method for what you are all trying to achieve. Which is O/U.

You know, its's really tough to just leave things alone and let it run, soooooo..,
I changed up a couple of things.
I now have a two coils (Adams style) in the attract mode. Found that my hollow core only really works in the repel mode or as a pickup so I'm using it as a pickup right now. Still firing seperately but still using my 3A reeds for switching. I do like the arcing within these switches for reasons stated above. This configuration appears to be slightly better in that I can take the center tap of my drive coils and run through a FWB feeding another 9AH battery which charges at the rate of .1V every ten minutes. Loose .01V in that time on the drive battery.
Awaiting the arrival of my new scope to better time and understand the various complex wave forms I'm getting from this arrangement. BTW, to shorten my trigger pulses I've been using some magnetic shielding arround the trigger reeds. Only the scope will confirm that is working.
Also, the two drive coils are wound arround a standard 1/2" bolt with no head. This does aide the attraction mode drive being used.

Will consider the opto answer when the biger unit is complete as photo/opto answer is not really condusive to my bicycle wheel.

Carl

Just a note.
Charging slowed down considerably once I reached 12.96 on the charge battery.

[/quote]

Quote from: hoptoad on March 18, 2008, 02:01:21 AM
There are still losses in the reed switch which are photonic, acoustic, and mechanical.
...
Whilst opto-coupling will give you far better accuracy, reliabilty, etc, than any other switching method, it may not be the best method for what you are all trying to achieve. Which is O/U.

Hoptoad
Your edited comments imply that the reed switch may somehow be a better switching method than an optointerrupter if one's goal is to achieve overunity. Explain.
Tropes

Quote from: tropes on March 18, 2008, 12:29:00 PM
Hoptoad
Your edited comments imply that the reed switch may somehow be a better switching method than an optointerrupter if one's goal is to achieve overunity. Explain.
Tropes

Hi Tropes,
"Explain"   :D :D        I wish I could. Especially my last post, which, when I merely wanted to P.S. to what I'd already written, I goofed and deleted the original post altogether. Doh!  :-\

Now about O/U......   A couple of posts back, I acknowledged that since I have never personally achieved O/U, I can only be considered a student in this forum. However, I came to this thread some time ago as you recall, and told you of a friend who seemingly had achieved O/U, even though only feebly.

I still think the effect was more directly associated with the spark in his mechanical switching, than the magnetic properties of the circuit. Whilst the inductive property of the coil is responsible for the large spikes in voltage, and so is indirectly associated with the self charging effect, it seems the sparking which is the result of the voltage spikes, is the prime suspect.  Robert Adams stated that the self charging capability (of his pulsed motor) was lost when semi-conductor switching was used.

I have read other experimenters experiences and supporting data and outcomes, who seemed to have achieved the same feeble possible O/U effects, and they all used high impedance coils (which accounts for low current consumption and losses in the first place), and mechanical switching, which produced sparks. (which may be accounting for the unexplained energy entering into the system) (or maybe not   :D  ???)

Electric sparks are not like a normal chemical burning flame, which produce mostly stable oxides. Instead, they produce a mixture of ions, free electrons and some stable oxides. High energy ions are "PLASMA" and plasmas have a whole field of physics devoted to them.

High energy ions can be produced by electrical arcing (sparks) !  .....hmmmm   Tesla Coil.....lots of sparks  :o
Conversely, the presence of high energy ions and free electrons facilitates arcing.
Under certain conditions, it may well be possible that plasma helps to create more plasma by a cascading reaction.

The "filamentary" nature of plasmas contained in magnetic fields, revealing the "strange" two direction (double) spiral structure of high energy ion propagation has raised a lot of "conventional" physicists eyebrows lately!

Semi conductors by their very nature may prevent any "strange" double direction electrical energy manifestation, because they are biased to allow flow in one direction only. (an assumption of course, on my behalf )  :-\

Cheers all   ...KneeDeep

MOSFET rectifying - - Shouldn't everyone be using this?

Anyone with advice/circuit/insight?  Has anyone done this?

I have reduced my rectifying voltage drop from 2.8 volts to 1.2 volts via individual schottky diodes - but it appears I can reduce it even further.......(Me wanna!) :o
- - - - -
Synchronous rectification is a technique for improving efficiency of power converters in power electronics. It consists of connecting a diode and a transistor (usually a power MOSFET) in parallel. When the diode is forward-biased, the transistor is turned on, to reduce the voltage drop. When the diode is reverse-biased, the transistor is turned off, so no charge can flow through the circuit. This way, a rectifying characteristic is obtained, without the forward voltage drop associated with diodes in the on-state.

Paralleling two MOSFETs reduces the losses further, whereas paralleling several diodes won't modify their threshold voltage.
- - - - -

CH

Quote from: hoptoad on March 19, 2008, 04:14:25 AM

Hi Tropes,
"Explain"   :D :D        I wish I could. Especially my last post, which, when I merely wanted to P.S. to what I'd already written, I goofed and deleted the original post altogether. Doh!  :-\

Now about O/U......   A couple of posts back, I acknowledged that since I have never personally achieved O/U, I can only be considered a student in this forum. However, I came to this thread some time ago as you recall, and told you of a friend who seemingly had achieved O/U, even though only feebly.

Cheers all   ...KneeDeep

Hi Hop
Could you re-post that one you deleted. I think it dealt with the use of Mosfets and I would like to see a circuit that replaces my TIP102 Darlington pair with a Mosfet. The circuit I'm using was given to me by Gyulasun who makes things simple for me and I posted it a while back.
Tropes

Synchronous rectifiers can offer a further 4% reduction in losses over the already efficient schottky diode rectifier.  (using individual schottky diode recitication can offer 50% reduction in losses over traditional silicon diodes/store bought rectifiers) The circuit below is for a transformer application - but could be adopted/modified for many applications.

- - - -
In this circuit, synchronous rectifiers SR2 (Q2 and D2) and SR3 (Q3 and D3) are crosscoupled to the
secondary winding of the transformer and are directly driven by the secondary voltage. Since no
driver or control circuit is used to provide the gate-drive signals, this implementation of
synchronous rectification is the simplest possible.
- - - -

Now if I only knew the required parameters for Q2/D2 and Q3/D3 and how to actually apply/build the circuit to rectify the ouput from my coils!!   ???

- - -

As to the reed switch spark - I've coupled a ZNR (Panasonic part #: ERZ-V05D820) to the reed to eliminate/reduce spark.  This protects the reed switch and will result in longer life.  Also - a spark is energy being released into the atmosphere - I'd rather keep it in the circuit!

CH

Quote from: tropes on March 19, 2008, 10:13:08 AM
Hi Hop
Could you re-post that one you deleted. I think it dealt with the use of Mosfets and I would like to see a circuit that replaces my TIP102 Darlington pair with a Mosfet. The circuit I'm using was given to me by Gyulasun who makes things simple for me and I posted it a while back.
Tropes

I can't remember what I said.....  ???  :D :D Doh!   Maybe thats why I deleted it.   :(

If you're using the Opto-Coupler OPB490, (10K Pull up mode), then you should be able to simply substitute your TIP102 with an appropriate
Mosfet. The output impedance and voltage bias is perfectly suited to driving power mosfets.

Below is a link to Dick Smith Electronics (Australia).
http://dseau.resultspage.com/search.php?p=Q&ts=p2&sessionid=47e23388070637da273fc0a87f9c06ba&w=mosfets&uid=273108518&af=&ct=&site=&submit.x=13&submit.y=8

They don't carry a huge selection, but they do carry the sort of power switching Mosfets which are perfectly suited to pulsed systems. Just use the site page as a guideline to whats available. The decision to use N channel or P channel, is a matter of builder preference and / or specific circuit requirements.

The BUK456-60A has a PDF spec sheet. See link below
http://www.dse.com.au/isroot/dse/support/Z1853.pdf

Unfortunately the others seem to have broken links.

The BUK456 / 7 range of Mosfets shown on the page are high power mosfets. One is MAX rated at 600Volts  8Amps, the other is 60Volts  60Amps.

Both are ideally suited to your needs, and either one will probably be a perfect "in place" substitute for your TIP102.
If you intend to produce undamped high voltage spikes, then the BUK457-600B is the best candidate. It only handles 8A current max, but its likely you'll be aiming for currents way below that anyway.

Be sure to handle Mosfets carefully until they are installed into a circuit, because the gates are prone to electrostatic damage. Read up a little on anti static handling procedures if you're unsure. When you buy Mosfets, they should be packaged in an antistatic bag, wrap or mould or foil shield. If the outlet doesn't sell them to you with some sort of obvious shielding, then don't buy them from that outlet. They may already be damaged.

Cheers and KneeDeep  :)

.......or you could try this US electronics component supplier:

http://dkc1.digikey.com/us/digihome.html

Excellent/cheapest magnet supplier:

http://www.magnet4less.com/index.php

Wire supplier:

http://www.bulkwire.com/

CH

Quote from: hoptoad on March 20, 2008, 05:19:58 AM
The BUK456-60A has a PDF spec sheet. See link below
http://www.dse.com.au/isroot/dse/support/Z1853.pdf
Cheers and KneeDeep  :)

Thanks Hop
I was able to order some BUK457-500B MOSFET's from a local supplier.
Tropes

Update on generator coil construction:

I have finalized my coil construction after winding/comparing 24 different styles.

Examples: All wound to the same winding dimensions 1" x 1" on 3" core.
Each coils airgap adjusted to result in similar "drag" on rotor.  3/4 x 1/2 button N42 mags N/S.

Air cores and "sheath" cores have been eliminated as output of both were sub-par.

1) #22 wire / 3/8" tap bolt:  .1 volts @ .0075 mA = 0.00075 mW

2) #26 wire / 3/8" tap bolt:  .34 volts @ 4 mA = 1.36 mW

3) #30 wire / 5/16 tap bolt with head cut off:  2.3 volts @ 21 mA = 48 mW

Smaller wire RULES for generator coils.  #1 is standard type coil - #3 is modified with smaller wire, smaller core, no head for smaller air gap.

#3 will produce 64,000 times the power over #1.

I am winding coils of the #3 variety for my project.  Custom nylon washers cut using hole saw for "bobbin" ends.  Each winding layer wrapped with 1 layer 1" masking tape.  Finished coil wrapped 1 layer electrical tape.  (rather than cutting head off bolt - you could use threaded rod - no head - I couldn't find any the right size.  A jigsaw with a metal blade takes the head off in like 20 seconds though - so no problem)

If you are going to use seperate generator/"pickup" coils in your project - try it out.  Wind #1 style then #3 style - it will blow you away!  Even bifilar - use a smaller wire for your pickup..........

I never tried "magnetite" or iron powder cores or even laminated cores.  I would love to hear from anyone who has done so and would like to share their results!

But I need to build now - enough testing already!!! :-\

CH

On reed switches:

Will placing a "backing" magnet behind the reed switch to reduce it's sensitivity cause a failure/improper operation over time as the reed switch will become magnetized by the "backing" magnet?

The AT 22/28 reeds (1A, 250V) I got are WAY to sensitive!  My .75" x .25" N42 mags will activate it from 2" .

I'm thinking I can't even get one that will provide the desired 1/4" activiation zone??

What AT rating are you guys using?

Can someone recommend an AT rating that I should try?

CH

b-u-m-p

??

Circuit to limit power draw from capacitor?

I want to limit my 4700 uF 35 V capacitor that is charged to between 2V to 16 V from dumping it's charge all at once.

I would like the capacitor to provide 1.5 volts to the load.  What do I need to do?  What about amps (.5 A)?

I could put diodes in between the capacitor and load for voltage drops - but the capacitors charge will vary from 2V to 16V....

CH

Hey capt,

You can use a voltage regulator to control the voltage to the load. They can be picked up from radioshack.
Jason

Yes, you can use a switch mode DC/DC converter as the voltage regulator, that gives out 1.5V at 0.5A, see this chip here on page 17 and 18 of this data sheet but of course there are several other integrated circuits from different manufacturers:
http://www.linear.com/pc/downloadDocument.do?navId=H0,C1,C1003,C1042,C1032,C1082,P37748,D25042

However you have to combine a switch in series with your 4700uF in the wire leading to the DC/DC converter to disconnect it (and its load at 1.5V) when the DC voltage of the capacitor goes down to about 3V or so (usually converter chips do not work at 2V, it's too small for them).  The switch should be combined with a voltage sensor circuit like a simple voltage comparator to sense the charged state of your capacitor between 3V and 16V.
There is a patent application on just such a circuit you need, it is US20070222411 from Jean-Michel Cour.
(go here http://www.pat2pdf.org/ and copy and paste 20070222411 to freely download this patent)

Of course if you study thorougly the patent description you can figure out what you need from it. (hint: Capacitor #14 in Fig. 1 will be your 4700uF and Battery #16 will be replaced by (the input of) the DC/DC converter IC from above or from elsewhere.

rgds,  Gyula

Thanks so much for the replies!

I'm trying to use capacitor charge ( I think I'll need a much bigger capacitor) to power my pulse coils @ .40 watts (for about 1/2 sec).  This is the last part of the circuit I need.  So it's not just voltage regulation, but also current regulation - the resistance of my coil is  10 ohm.  A linear regulator is out as the "waste" heat is a non-starter.... so looks like the best solution is the switched-mode conversion.

I found this part that seems to offer what I need - and easy to implement:

http://www.dimensionengineering.com/DE-SWADJ.htm

Is this a good solution?  At $15 it's a bit spendy - but if it will do what I need....then ok!

I guess I'll pick up the radio shack part first - as it's cheaper and easy to get and mess around with it...

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062601&cp=&sr=1&origkw=voltage+regulator&kw=voltage+regulator&parentPage=search

gyulasun: would this be the part?

http://www.linear.com/pc/productDetail.jsp?navId=H0,C1,C1003,C1042,C1032,C1082,P37748

At ~ $3.00 - bring it on!!  And I guess then a small resistor of (x? ohms) to drop output from 1.65 watts to .5 watts?  Or one that will output .5 watts?

And with a large enough capacitor,  I shouldn't have to worry about min. input available?

The information you guys provided is helpful for where to start - now to get my head around it!
(I didn't realize this aspect of the project would be so complicated!  :P  But the only way to prove to the nay-sayers of OU is to take batteries/external supply out of the picture and self-run it! ) 

All suggestion/recommendations/ideas/help EXTREMELY welcome!   :)

CH

Quote from: capthook on April 06, 2008, 08:59:51 PM
..... But the only way to prove to the nay-sayers of OU is to take batteries/external supply out of the picture and self-run it! ) 

All suggestion/recommendations/ideas/help EXTREMELY welcome!   :)

CH

Good luck with that    8) ..... KneeDeep ...... A suggestion ; study the art of patience and dealing with frustration... :D :D

Cheers all

ROFL @ toad!


Its funny cause its true ;D

Hello hoptoad!  Patience? That is - in fact - one of my short-comings  ;)  Frustration on the other hand - can actually turn to satisfaction once the obstacle has been overcome.

I've been working like 10 hours a day for the last 3 months on my project - 10 protypes built.
I am now ready to begin building my first "finished" model starting tommorrow - so yes - I am "anxious" to realize the fruits of my labors.  Testing and protypes calculate to a large OU.
Thanks for the past input you have provided - I'm always interested in insight from "the one who hops"

Hi Ren - loved your videos/builds ... how is it coming along?  Building anything at the moment?
Any knowledge you would like to impart to my (crowded) brain? 

... and I don't quite get the joke.... but I'm willing to laugh at my own expense   :D


The knowlege I have gained here has been invaluable in pursing my goal - thanks!

CH

Capthook, I admire your patience and dedication, I wish you well in your quest. I have learnt a number of valuable lessons and insights over the past six months, and lets just say that I am no longer obsessing after overunity like I have in the past. I have realised that if one truely wants to see the endless possibilities of our world one must obsess over the truth. One must know everything about the nature of energy. After all, how can you master something that you dont fully understand? Lets just say I have a long road ahead, but I am looking forward to it.

I still continue to build, its one of my passions and I dont think that will change. I am also happy to offer any advice in regards to Bedinis work, as that is what I have mainly studied in the past. Im working on a 16 pole monopole with a fixed shaft for driving a timing wheel for pulsed discharge on the back end at the moment. I have plans for a window motor replication in the works, but who knows where my studies will take me. Keep an eye out, I'll keep putting up vids and stuff, and I'll always remember the friends and fellow experimenters I met in these threads.

All the best

Edit: Ditto to Toads post below! I know how you feel!

Quote from: capthook on April 07, 2008, 04:36:49 AM
... and I don't quite get the joke.... but I'm willing to laugh at my own expense   :D
The knowlege I have gained here has been invaluable in pursing my goal - thanks!
CH

I assure you capthook, the joke was not meant to be at your expense.....Just musing on my own behalf, from my own experience.....   :D ;)
Cheers

oh - I get it now!  ;D

Funny the myriad ways the written word can be interpreted vs. the spoken...

Thanks again gyulasun for the excellent links.

The LT1933 - 600mA, 500kHz Step-Down Switching Regulator in SOT-23 appears to be exactly what I need ( http://www.linear.com/pc/productDetail.jsp?navId=H0,C1,C1003,C1042,C1032,C1064,P7531#descriptionSection )

And Linear Technology has a cool/free Spice program for download - a first for me!

Anyhoo - the circuit below is the additional components required to implement the LT1933.  Nothings easy!  Guess it's not too bad - but this:

http://www.dimensionengineering.com/DE-SWADJ.htm

seems to offer almost the same thing - all in one package.  I need easy for now.....

Recommendations wanted:

LT1933 - cheap - exactly what I need? (but I have to get/assemble/spec the other parts)
DE-SWADJ:  expensive, maybe not exactly what I need - but EASY?
Option 3:  use another method than a DC/DC switched converter

(I guess if I don't want to be a wuss - and if it IS exactly what I need - option 1: unless option 3 applies)

And if you don't have a SPICE program get the LTSPICE free @:

http://www.linear.com/designtools/software/switchercad.jsp

TIA

CH

Hi CH,

Your radio shack LT317 adjustable voltage regulator is an excellent regulator but not for you present application IMHO, for it is a linear regulator.

The LT 1933 is a good choice but it needs a minimum input voltage of 4.5V and you set the lower limit to 2V for your 4700uF cap, hence I suggested LT3502 that needs 3V minimum as the best trade off. It is up to you to decide.

Re: on http://www.dimensionengineering.com/DE-SWADJ.htm  This seems also good (maybe its 1A output current capability is a bit overkill for your needs)  but nevertheless it is ready made and no need any tinkering from you to build it,  for 15 bucks of course :(    The only info I did not find in its datasheet is its quiescent current which is about 1.5mA for both LT type circuits. (quiescent current gives info how much current is needed to by the inside  circuits of the regulator when there is no load at its output)

Both LT1933 and 3502 circuits are adjustable and a formula is included in their data sheet for calculating the value of R1 for your desired output voltage when the recommanded R2=10kOhm. A 22kOhm trimmer or normal potmeter connected as a two pole variable resistor is good for you in both cases to adjust the 1.5V output voltage in advance you need. Of course a calculated fix value resistor is just as good if you need no variable output voltage.

There is this sentence you wrote today I do not understand, would you clarify?
And I guess then a small resistor of (x? ohms) to drop output from 1.65 watts to .5 watts?  Or one that will output .5 watts?    Where and why you would use any resistor for dissipating power? This is why switchmode supplies are used, aren't they?

So all in all: I recommend your option 1 with either one of the LT chips (additional component cost will be under $10 I guess. Have a look round for component costs first, probably out of them the dearest will be the coil for the LT circuits.

rgds,  Gyula

Quote from: gyulasun on April 07, 2008, 11:26:37 AM

The LT 1933 is a good choice but it needs a minimum input voltage of 4.5V and you set the lower limit to 2V for your 4700uF cap, hence I suggested LT3502 that needs 3V minimum as the best trade off. It is up to you to decide.

Both LT1933 and 3502 circuits are adjustable and a formula is included in their data sheet for calculating the value of R1 for your desired output voltage when the recommended R2=10kOhm. A 22kOhm trimmer or normal potmeter connected as a two pole variable resistor is good for you in both cases to adjust the 1.5V output voltage in advance you need. Of course a calculated fix value resistor is just as good if you need no variable output voltage.

There is this sentence you wrote today I do not understand, would you clarify?
And I guess then a small resistor of (x? ohms) to drop output from 1.65 watts to .5 watts?  Or one that will output .5 watts?    Where and why you would use any resistor for dissipating power? This is why switchmode supplies are used, aren't they?

So all in all: I recommend your option 1 with either one of the LT chips (additional component cost will be under $10 I guess. Have a look round for component costs first, probably out of them the dearest will be the coil for the LT circuits.

rgds,  Gyula

Many, many thanks for your detailed, informative posts!!  A few days ago - I was completely lost as how to accomplish this need.  Thanks to you - I have a decent grasp of it now!

Minimum voltage on the cap can be raised by upsizing my capacitor giving me greater chip options - as well as giving me more storage. (Probably going with 1000,000 uF vs. 4700 uF)

The LT chips will offer ~10% more efficiency over the DE-SWADJ, so I'm going with the LT (haven't picked the exact model yet)

Thanks for the R1 resistor info - that was another aspect I was concerned with figuring.

The clarification of the additional power dissipating resistor component was that I wasn't sure I could fine tune any of the chips enough to get the exact power wanted.  Now that I know a little more - the task can be accomplished without this additional wasteful component.

Once again - many, many thanks!!!  I slept well last night - having spent a few previous night tossing and turning lost in thoughts of how to approach this task!   :D

CH

I have decided on this step-down switch mode buck converter from LT.
(last week I didn't even know what that last sentence meant!  :P  Hey hoptoad - THAT is satisfaction earned by overcoming a frustrating obstacle   :D)

It's an IC so saves the trouble of assembling the other components.  And it is EXACTLY what I need - for $7.

SCORE!!  Thanks Gyula!

LTM8020 - 200mA, 36V DC/DC ?Module

http://www.linear.com/pc/productDetail.jsp?navId=H0,C1,C1003,C1424,P39256

hey can anyone help me understand how the trigger coil of this setup works? seems to me by law of induction once the trigger coil fires off and activates the primary coil the primary will become energized and induction will create an opposite current keeping the circuit in the on state until it uses all available current! even if the magent is not present it will stay on by my knowledge. can someone elabrate on this?

Quote from: Artic_Knight on July 03, 2008, 04:09:39 PM
hey can anyone help me understand how the trigger coil of this setup works? seems to me by law of induction once the trigger coil fires off and activates the primary coil the primary will become energized and induction will create an opposite current keeping the circuit in the on state until it uses all available current! even if the magent is not present it will stay on by my knowledge. can someone elabrate on this?

Hi,

Here is some info from John Bedini: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Monopolemotor/message/62 and http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Monopolemotor/message/69 
In that Monopolemotor yahoo group there is some more useful info if you read letters from Bedini (unfortunately there are not many) and you can find those fews from the start of the group till message 69.

It is possible you will have still questions though, for Bedini mainly included the story behind his monopole circuit.

On your second question, I think when the magnet just passed the coil and going away and the primary coil's current has been already on, then the induced voltage/current in the trigger coil by the passing magnet gets reduced so the transistor suddenly switches off. I do not think the primary coil's magnet field caused by the switched-on transistor has any effect in the base drive via the trigger coil,  the control of the base-emitter is done by the induced voltage/current from the coming and going magnets.   Then after the transistor switches off, the collapsing field in the primary creates the flyback pulse that is led into the second battery via a diode from the collector pin of the transistor.

rgds,  Gyula

i just found out there are different diode kick in times. the silicon (most popular) diode allows electric flow after .4 volts. this is a loss of electricity! maybe not much but im trying to maximize the gains everywhere i can. i found that ge (geranium?) diodes have a start voltage of .2 volts. whats the best diode available with the lowest start voltage?

thanks

Hi guys I build one with a 2n3055 but after a while no emf was coming.
How can I switch on and off the transistor completely?
I'm posting a rough sketch of my circuit.
Any help please?

Thanks

Quote from: guruji on July 13, 2008, 08:40:16 AM
Hi guys I build one with a 2n3055 but after a while no emf was coming.
How can I switch on and off the transistor completely?
I'm posting a rough sketch of my circuit.
Any help please?

Thanks

Hi,

I think you have a wrong schematics the pulse coil is to be placed in series with the transistor collector (it may work in series with the emitter too)  but your bridge rectifier (4 diodes) is NOT needed: a single diode for capturing the flyback voltage after the transistor switch-off is just enough, with the correct polarity connections.
Try to build the schematics uploaded above by Artic_Knight in reply #442, it seems ok.  But first check all your diodes and the transistor with an diode tester of a DMM to make sure all of them is still ok. Maybe your transistor or any diode is already a short circuit?

The transistor switches off completely when the magnet has already passed the coils and moving away from it.

rgds, Gyula

 Hi Gyula thanks for reply.Can you please describe the circuit above cause there's no adequate info.
Those resistors example and what type of transistor is used?
Thanks

Quote from: guruji on July 13, 2008, 10:56:26 AM
Hi Gyula thanks for reply.Can you please describe the circuit above cause there's no adequate info.
Those resistors example and what type of transistor is used?
Thanks

Hi,  you can find everything in detail at this peswiki page:  http://peswiki.com/energy/Directory:Bedini_SG

The fix resistor is 680 Ohm (the variable is 1 K, or 4.7 K Ohm you may omit it too), the transistor is 2N3055.

Gyula

Hi Gyula the funny thing is that circuit was given to me by Konzen.I think this guy knows what he was telling seeing his website.
Maybe I did not understood exactly cause he explained by words never posted me a scheme.
Thanks.

Quote from: guruji on July 13, 2008, 08:40:16 AM
Hi guys I build one with a 2n3055 but after a while no emf was coming.
How can I switch on and off the transistor completely?
I'm posting a rough sketch of my circuit.
Any help please?

Thanks

think EASY
the trigger coil are  producing  an voltage  to the base (if excuted with an magnet !)
-Think ; an very short time, like an "pulse"
so the collector emitter from transistor switch on ( like : close)
the fully battery power now flowing over the output coil for an short time.
After that the transistor open ( even over the diodes-bridges).
(Possibly with Back-EMF)

After that that start (trigger) again , of the moving magnet pass the next time the "trigger-coil".

It is very simply - you must give attention that the trigger coil produce (like an generator) enought power to drive the Transistor.
(Minimum 1,5 volts and 20 -50mA)
Pese

THE scematic from ARTIC is exactly the same with changes in the base currents.

BOTH circuits will work , but are not professional designed

Hi Pese or Gyula if the circuit of Arctic works can you guys give me the parts in detail please cause in the circuit nothing is explained?.
Thanks in advance.

Quote from: guruji on July 14, 2008, 03:59:58 PM
Hi Pese or Gyula if the circuit of Arctic works can you guys give me the parts in detail please cause in the circuit nothing is explained?.
Thanks in advance.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Bedini_SG:Materials 

Hi Pese sorry to bother you again but regarding coils.I did mine trigger =25ohms
Pulse=8ohms are these ok ? cause I did more on Adam's then Bedini.
In Arctic circuit:
Variable resistor 1K?and that resistor 680ohms or 10ohms?
it have no neon bulbs is it ok?
and two diodes 1N4007 to charge battery and 1N4001 to resistors?
That's all I want to know.
Thanks.

Quote from: guruji on July 15, 2008, 03:17:58 AM
Hi Pese sorry to bother you again but regarding coils.I did mine trigger =25ohms
Pulse=8ohms are these ok ? cause I did more on Adam's then Bedini.
In Arctic circuit:
Variable resistor 1K?and that resistor 680ohms or 10ohms?
it have no neon bulbs is it ok?
and two diodes 1N4007 to charge battery and 1N4001 to resistors?
That's all I want to know.
Thanks.

hi Guruji,

Though I already referred to the values of components in my earlier letter above here is the schematics I modified for you. 
The coils and the magnets are described in the peswiki page.

gd luck,  Gyula

Thanks Gyula about the coils 900turns do anyone know what ohm reading?in resistance
Thanks

Quote from: guruji on July 16, 2008, 02:04:54 PM
Thanks Gyula about the coils 900turns do anyone know what ohm reading?in resistance
Thanks

Yes,  just ought to look up a wire resistance calculator like this: http://www.cirris.com/testing/resistance/wire.html

from peswiki page you see #20 wire for the electromagnet coil and #23 wire for the trigger coil,  both has the same length of about 350 feet,  this gives 3.5 Ohm and 7.1 Ohm, respectively.
These values are not very critical, you may use less or slightly more wire,  these are for ceramic magnets (grade 5) and you may experiment with the distance between the coil core and passing magnet to compensate for bigger differences (for less number of turns or wire length you wish to reduce the distance and vice versa).

Gyula

hey guys the GE diodes have a .25 trigger voltage and the silicon ones .45.  does anyone know of a better diode than GE? im looking for the lowest loss on flow control :)  the GE diodes arent bad but if i can do better i want to :)

and if you dont mind me asking, the cuircuit i showed was reported as not professional? how so?

HI guys I build that circuit that is shown by Arctic.The rotor is spinning quite well.
It is giving me on charging battery leads 2.5v reading.It should be that way or something is wrong?.
Back emf does not show up with this circuit on meter?
thanks

has anyone noticed the largest drop in voltage or the largest electrical sink hole in the curcuit is in the transistor? and with coils do you find a coil is just another coil or is bigger better?

SCR's have a very low voltage drop.

Transistors do have fairly high resistance, especially compared to fets.

One coil is not identical to another if thats what you mean. Bigger can be better, you must first decide what you require from your coil.

I built a small Bedini using the diagram posted above and it runs quite well. When I took a coil out of a small fan that seems to be bifilar wound, the circuit would not longer cause my wheel to spin, but instead the coil had a tone coming from it. With the potentiometer at it's 5k ohm maximum the tone was the highest pitched, and as I lowered resistance on it, the tone lowered in frequency until this stopped and I had to spin the wheel again to cause this to restart. The wheel would spin down as the tone wavered until the wheel stopped and then the tone was constant again. Anyone know what was going on here?

Also, this apparently fried my potentiometer, after toying with this, I thought I'd blown my transistor, but it turns out my pot was reading over 2M ohms no matter what I did to it. I now have a 740ohm resistor in it's place and the circuit runs again at least.

high resistance on the trigger will cause the circuit to self oscillate.

Quote from: Artic_Knight on February 05, 2008, 12:35:55 PM


lets face it, if this motor is half as effecient as people are bragging then it will be much more effecient than todays motors. so now that raises another question... who killed the electric motor? :-p

Wo killed te electric ca ?
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/545.html

http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=who+klled+the+electric+car&btnG=Suche&meta=

GM also stoped an Electric car 10098, after delivering 1700 test models to VIP



http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-179112523.html

Gustav Pese

i found if you checked all 4 terminals with a multi meter set for resistance 3 of them give you the same readingwhat i am going to do is discount the 4th connection and run the other three and wire them like a 3 phase generator i have a feeling the first connection is were the coils meet so this would be star formation

Quote from: kubikop on October 17, 2007, 01:54:35 PM
@Ren & Nostrand2000

I think this might explain it better

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GBz7TMcj3Jo (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GBz7TMcj3Jo)

Thanks for the Help

Kubikop

elec shocks or man have i found these my pulse motor is putting out of bemf 250 volts i went to tune it my moveing the reed switch and ouch numb arm and lots of little pulses going thru my arm thank god this was dot dc

Quote from: hoptoad on October 18, 2007, 08:24:14 AM
Hi all, finally got a moment to hop in for a quick chat.
Sorry Ren, but current is everything. it is "The Specific" of it all when you are talking about battery systems. Voltage gives great little shocks to the unsuspecting, and traces out wonderful patterns on an oscilliscope screen, but delivers zero "OU" on its own. As I've said before on this forum, "I'm an active skeptic". Thats because I have studied CEMF for a long time. But I still say, keep experimenting, I want to be proven wrong! (LOL)

And speaking of active, I had enough time to prattle off a little bit about coil cores on my website.

http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html (http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html)

As per usual there's still more unsaid than said - more to come when time allows.

Happy motoring pulsers!
The Toad who Hops  :D

piston engine now that give me an idea
change the block to a none magnetic one and replace the piston for a magnet.
now take the head machine out the piston and valve part so a electromagnet can be placed there.
wire for repulshion and set the timing from maybe a fly wheel mith mustiple triggers.

think how powerfull this coild be and how much better the effincy would be over standerd eltric cars.

i have taken a dead psu apart and found these are any of them any god to use in a pulse motor 2sc2625 or this one 2SC5353

i've used the 2sc2625 in a bedini SG circuit before.

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 08, 2010, 05:13:59 PM
i've used the 2sc2625 in a bedini SG circuit before.

thats god news then i have managed to salvage 2 of them.
is a 250 volt neon ok or dose it have to be a 110 volt neon?.
i have built a pulse motor with a reed switch worked very well on a hdd drive motor and disk 16 6x6mm neo mags but burnt out the reed switch.
so i made my own more heavy duty one but there was to much rf interference been created so hopeing the bedini style will work better.

Quote from: dasimpson on November 08, 2010, 06:56:45 PM

thats god news then i have managed to salvage 2 of them.
is a 250 volt neon ok or dose it have to be a 110 volt neon?.
i have built a pulse motor with a reed switch worked very well on a hdd drive motor and disk 16 6x6mm neo mags but burnt out the reed switch.
so i made my own more heavy duty one but there was to much rf interference been created so hopeing the bedini style will work better.

Hi Dasimpson to eliminate spark in reed put it between BR on AC side with low voltage diodes. Pulse motor have more torque.

what do you mean br ac side they is no ac side the power is from a battery

the set up went + of battery to read switch then to coil from coil to battery -

Quote from: dasimpson on November 11, 2010, 08:38:13 AM
what do you mean br ac side they is no ac side the power is from a battery

the set up went + of battery to read switch then to coil from coil to battery -

Hi Dasimpson yes it's from the battery but when the coil is pulsed it have BEMF as AC so put four diodes 1n4001 facing one direction (Bridge Rectifier)
then between them one put the reed switch. One side coming from battery and the other from coil. You can fill a capacitor on the DC side.

so what you mean is wire as nomal but take a connections of ethier side of the reed switch run thru a bridge rectifre to a cap.
lol allready ahead of you there did clench some of the spark but the rf interference was to much.
i was going to say the bemf is pulsed dc but then i relised that the pulse going to the coil would be going the opersit direction so efectivly makeing this ac.
i was also hopeing to run some leds of the cap but when i tried it the motor boged down.
my idea this time is using bedini style circuit an using the hdd motor as the rotor.
i am going to take the old connections run as 3 phase star configuration and see what power i get from that

Found this tread really helpful, thanks too u all!
Ive not got much helpful info too post just a couple of questions if someone
Will help me out?
1. If I was to use a latched hall switch (pulses on both poles) then would
I need to have a transistor for each hall output?
Im a noob so trying too fully understand before I frazzel parts.
Been reading that site totally amped someone posted link back somewhere near page eight, I think?
Brilliant for people like me.
I get whats going on with this dynamic system.
I know how to make a cicuit for a unipolar hall with three legs, ive only got four legged, thus my question would I needto eessentially double up the circuit?
Hope that makes sense...
2. Could I put a non polarized capacitor in place off say the bemf capturing off of emitter and v++?? Just wondering if that would act as a sort of pump timed by when its full and shorts? Giving the rotor like a current boost??
Cheers
Col