Seems a small amount of HHO gas injected into an automotive Catalytic converter makes an awful lot of heat
with no flame involved.
Some OU Claims are surfacing.........
Cpl vids from a series here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7C-PzbTNsI&feature=c4-overview&list=UUXGCQUfET1xo2FVFkXfKejQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7C-PzbTNsI&feature=c4-overview&list=UUXGCQUfET1xo2FVFkXfKejQ)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO-zLya2x6Q&feature=c4-overview&list=UUXGCQUfET1xo2FVFkXfKejQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO-zLya2x6Q&feature=c4-overview&list=UUXGCQUfET1xo2FVFkXfKejQ)
this is their you tube channel
http://www.youtube.com/user/hydrofuelincanada?feature=watch (http://www.youtube.com/user/hydrofuelincanada?feature=watch)
Also being discussed here .
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/16500-hho-gas-injected-into-catalytic-converter-yields-extreme-heat-lenr-we-dont-know.html#post248694 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/16500-hho-gas-injected-into-catalytic-converter-yields-extreme-heat-lenr-we-dont-know.html#post248694)
and Justins intro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaVlBdZf9jc&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaVlBdZf9jc&feature=youtu.be)
thx for looking
Chet
Woopy has provided this "declassified" PDF after watching Justins Movie [posted above]
http://web.ornl.gov/info/reports/1952/3445603529607.pdf (http://web.ornl.gov/info/reports/1952/3445603529607.pdf)
Seems recombining of the hho causes this heat [a known reaction]
Woopy is already thinking of "other" reactions to explore.........[a very smart and talented fellow].
from here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/16500-hho-gas-injected-into-catalytic-converter-yields-extreme-heat-lenr-we-dont-know.html#post248872 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/16500-hho-gas-injected-into-catalytic-converter-yields-extreme-heat-lenr-we-dont-know.html#post248872)
thx For looking
Chet K
Quote from: ramset on January 15, 2014, 10:27:11 AM
Woopy has provided this "declassified" PDF after watching Justins Movie [posted above]
http://web.ornl.gov/info/reports/1952/3445603529607.pdf (http://web.ornl.gov/info/reports/1952/3445603529607.pdf)
Seems recombining of the hho causes this heat [a known reaction]
Woopy is already thinking of "other" reactions to explore.........[a very smart and talented fellow].
from here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/16500-hho-gas-injected-into-catalytic-converter-yields-extreme-heat-lenr-we-dont-know.html#post248872 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/16500-hho-gas-injected-into-catalytic-converter-yields-extreme-heat-lenr-we-dont-know.html#post248872)
thx For looking
Chet K
This guy is an nasty piece of work who i foul mouthed and has very bad things to say about researchers like Russ Gries etc. I am happy to send you some recent email exchanges from him.
He has a very dim view of everyone here as well.
Kind Regards
Mark
I posted this idea previously on the yahoo groups NI-Fusion [Dec 07, 2012]. So I'd say go for it.
Catalytic Converters already get really hot once they start running. It's not clear that Chemical Catalytic doesn't already mean LENR, that's what needs to be proven. Also, I noticed in a NASA picture of it's designer holding a model cross section of the Curiosity Robotic Rover SNAP Thermal Battery, how simple the electrical connections are and how few devices are really required to create this nominally efficient device.
So, if one can show LENR gain in a Catalytic Converter already known to run at very high temperature, why not use the gain to offset Thermal Battery Carnot derived inefficiency? Have the Catalytic Converter Thermal Battery make the current to make its own HHO and have it make a little additional HHO to supplement the existing ICE engine.
---
Let say for a moment that the Rossi's Hot E-cat is a real device. How can a Rossi Hot e-cat device be integrated into an automotive vehicle application with the *least* disruption to existing systems and with as little R&D as possible? This would allow LENR application to take place as early a time as possible.
Well, it might look something like this:
Let us replace the existing precious metal driven catalytic exhaust converter currently used in automotive applications with a Rossi hot e-cat device. We would then use the thermal controlled LENR gain driven by the waste exhaust heat rejected from the vehicle's own ICE Internal combustion engine. This is similar to the way the catalytic converter does its pollution control job currently. The LENR reactor design would be articulated as a thermal battery using the high efficiency tellurium thermo-pairs thermocouples, similar to the ones NASA uses in its SNAP RTG radio-isotopic generators used in spacecraft. The electricity generated by the LENR reactor would then be used to run an HHO water based electrolysis unit and the hydrogen HHO gas could then be mixed with a very small amount of hydrocarbon fuel and fed back into the ICE engine. Because of the LENR gain the electrolysis unit could supply *all* of the hydrogen fuel required to run the engine through offsetting the engine's Carnot gas law inefficiency. The small amount of HC fuel would supply the warmth, drying and lubrication required by the standard internal combustion engine before this engine is itself eventually redesigned to run entirely on the HHO - hydrogen gas, at which time the HC fuel input would no longer be required.
The centralization of the LENR function in the e-cat reactor obviates the need to obtain any LENR energy problematically from either the HHO electrolyzer or from inside the ICE engine. An ICE engine can almost produce all of its own hydrogen fuel electrically from water, now. So the LENR gain will only be needed to supplement that loop.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Mark Dansie
I have no personal knowledge of any disparaging comments public or otherwise regarding this
Gentlemen ,
I prefer to keep it that way .....
not to be ignorant ...just to stay focused on the work being shared here and the simplicity of testing the claims being made [if any]
for this I am grateful !!
this is a stupid simple concept / experiment that can hopefully open a path to better understanding for this community.
@mscoffman
many thanks for that encouraging post.
respectfully
Chet K
Quote from: markdansie on January 15, 2014, 11:17:39 AM
This guy is an nasty piece of work who i foul mouthed and has very bad things to say about researchers like Russ Gries etc. I am happy to send you some recent email exchanges from him.
He has a very dim view of everyone here as well.
Kind Regards
Mark
Hi Mark
I hope this allegation is not intended to me " woopy"
So please be clear when you adress your critics
thank's
laurent
Quote from: woopy on January 15, 2014, 05:03:49 PM
Hi Mark
I hope this allegation is not intended to me " woopy"
So please be clear when you adress your critics
thank's
laurent
I apologize it was directed at Jason Church I enjoy your posts.
I received many abusive emails attacking many good experimenters and even my wife because of her nationality.
It was based on we were all part of a conspiracy theory of suppressing information
Kind Regards
Mark
Well
I did get a chance to go over a very simple test protocol with JDC last night
Very nice and pleasant fellow ,and now he understands how to measure this device
in an accurate and very simple way.
The" fixed loss to Ambient" Calorimetry test protocol is well within the grasp of anyone with a thermometer a clock and a known heat source.
Basically they establish input power on their HHO cell ...say for argument sake it is 100 watts
then 100 watts will be their control.
Take your stop watch your thermometer and a big cardboard box outside into the cold
winter air [they are in frozen USA ATM not sunny and toasty warm Aussie land]
put a 100 watt lightbulb [control power level] under the big [washing machine sized] cardboard box. place your thermometer lead into the Box
note outside temp and box inside temp
Plug in the 100 watt light [note the time]
When the temp in the box stops climbing or is no longer capable of raising the temp
do to losses to the cold outside air wait another minute or so just to be sure.
Stop the test , Note the time and the the temps. ambient and box]
You have your "fixed loss to Ambient " control temps .
Now Take your DUT[device under test ] and place every single component into the same Cardboard box EVERYTHING
run the test again ,if this 100 watt DUT can raise the temp in that very same box at the same ambient Higher than the Control do the happy dance
Hopefully we will all Dance along
Obviously two identical boxes with the Control in one and the DUT in the other
running simultaniously would be the way to go ,and also there is no reason to be dangerous
waiting till a fire or some other drama ,once the DUT goes past the control with a signifigant and obvious gain you can stop the test .
tx
Chet
PS
As Noted to JDC heating elements resistors or lightbulbs can be used in this test protocol
PPS
I am grateful to have been taught this protocol and grateful to be able to pass it along.
and BTW this very same protocol works with many different devices Geofusion would be a great example............... no messy meters just a stop watch and thermometer and a known heat source!
Hi Mark
Everything OK
Good luck at all
Laurent
Quote from: markdansie on January 15, 2014, 10:26:39 PM
I apologize it was directed at Jason Church I enjoy your posts.
I received many abusive emails attacking many good experimenters and even my wife because of her nationality.
It was based on we were all part of a conspiracy theory of suppressing information
Kind Regards
Mark
Mr. Dansie, My name is Justin Church and I am man enough to admit that I said some pretty nasty things to you through email, which was private and you somehow thought it was appropriate to forward the email to others I had mentioned. I got very angry at the fact that nobody has even thought to test this and I thought you had a pretty good grasp on hho and water electrolysis since your name has been used to promote such items. The emails I was getting back from you made me feel like you were either clueless to the effect or you were ignoring the entire concept I was trying to GIVE away to people. You also basically told me that companies have sunk millions into hho research and nobody wanted the technology. Thats not true. I want it and so does a lot of other people. I looked up to you and at the time of the emails I was down in a hole of anger. I apologize for the disrespect and vulgar words and if you want me to get on YouTube and apologize publicly then I'm man enough to do that. Yes I said some things about some other experimenters too but the fact of the matter is they may have all been pushing patents that may have been manipulated or purposely pushed out onto the internet to make people look in another direction. And at this point in time I still don't know who is working for who or if everyone is genuine with their intentions and knowledge. The suppression of this technology is NO CONSPIRACY. I have a bunch of declassified documents from the United States Military to prove that they have been researching and developing Hydrogen based nuclear reactors and weapons for a very long time. It is rather curious that after I post my video a few days later Sterling Alan puts out an interview from Mike McKubre which is basically confirming everything i said to you and said in my video. Did you hear the part about energy densities of 10 millions times the magnitude of anything we know of conventionally? Yes, suppression of this technology is going on and the fact that those guys work with DARPA should raise a red flag. DARPA has done things and still dong things that most people cannot begin to comprehend. Mind transfer technologies, teleportation, quantum propulsion systems. The work of DARPA and other Military Defense contractors is straight out of a Sci-Fi movie. I know the effect I stumbled upon can be used to get us to the point of replicating the Cold Fusion effect and a part of me wonders if that interview with Mr. McKubre went up in direct response to my video. I really can't say because none of you guys were acknowledging me so after a few days of being ignored, I got really mad. Again I apologize for any disrespect. I really don't know what came over me. It was one of the first and only times I called out some of the players in the YouTube community, I even called out my own friends and I'm having to listen to them whine and complain about it when there have been numerous occasions they have been really rude and ugly to people and even to you directly. I want this technology out now and not next year. I have a right to be angry and upset. I just gave away a very simple and possibly effective way to heat with hho and its a fact now that I have got confirmation from the Corporate Cold Fusion guys that what we are doing with our little hho cells can be tuned to produce the LENR effect and there is more than one way to do it. I hope I have put people on a path to discover this effect. I know I will be working diligently on this. I spoke personally with Ramset on the phone and he was very respectful, so was I. Woopy seems to have also picked up on the simplicity of this experiment and I hope everyone runs with it. You always say "Show Me The Data". That is what I am trying to do, the data really doesn't exist. Again I'm sorry for the terrible things I said. I can be a real push over if I want to be and you know for a fact we have spoken before and our conversations never took that path. It was one of those days I had a case of the f yous to everyone. If all of you guys want to whine and complain about it I really can't do much about it other than apologize and move forward. I hope you find use and insight in the information I gave out and I also hope you can get your other buddies to experiment with this effect and provide open data to all of us. Thank you again for your work and dedication to the field.
Regarding LENR, and specifically the Nickle Hydrogen Gas Loading method that is being used by "Rossi ECat", Defkalion, Brillouin Energy (Dr. Robert Godes the latter's chief scientist, who has systems now undergoing testing and engineering improvement at "S.R.I. International Laboratories"), and others now; the below is sort of the "recipe" for whats going on with the major commercial players' devices, either from their own Papers or words at events such as "ICCF18"... or leading scientists talking about others' technologies.
1) Convert the pure nickel to powder or nano-powder (which has the largest possible surface area for reaction).
2) Pump in compressed "regular" Hydrogen (although this will still have a small component of deuterium, most now agree that this H isotope is not required with Nickel for the LENR reaction, as it is for the original Pons and Fleishmann Palladium-Deuterium method using "heavy water" in an electrolytic cell).
3) Use an electric resistive heating element or some other means to raise the temp in the chamber to around 250 C or higher (once operating, this shouldn't be needed any more, or nearly as much, as heat is there from the reaction).
4) Generate and introduce an electromagnetic pulse waveform to the chamber (relatively low current, voltages and exact waveform shapes "unknown" because, as many folks believe, this is the "Secret Sauce" main intellectual property), this "excites" the nickel and H to react; and with the Brillouin method at least, can act as a "throttle" and "shut off" for control. Apparently, according to Dr. Godes' statements, square waves with very fast rise-times and short duration work best. And it has been shown, by scientists such as Dr. Peter Hagelstein of M.I.T. , that it is possible to use other methods of exciting the lattice to help create, enhance, and/or control the reaction, such as lasers or ultrasonics. The consensus idea there being, create "high rate of change" of electron charge resulting in higher energy state, which allows the H to "burrow" into the "shaking" lattice of the metal.
5) Via precise calorimeter measurement (using industry standards), watch the temperature rise greatly as the reaction begins.... generating several times more watts of energy as "heat", than is expended as "Mains" electricity to create the reaction (COP's higher than "17" have been recorded, and "OU" seen by dozens of respected labs around the world).
6) Using water jackets, transfer this heat to a boiler to generate steam to run a turbine, which turns an electric dynamo generator the same way coal-fired, methane, or fission nuclear plants do it now.... except without the pollution or extreme dangers.
Unless you have a better way of using that heat. :)
Regarding the automotive cat-boxes, to be "safe", one should use brand-new ones with new clean pipe to test these claims... to exclude "old residue".
JDC Has done a nice little Vid of What we are all looking for in the US at the moment ,,,HEAT
I was by Tesla's Niagra Falls powerplant yesterday ,,,the water falls are :o FROZEN
Apparently its happened before ,must have concerned the Powerplant builders just a bit?
Justin's movie
Here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6OZykbnLQw&feature=share&list=PLO6FJVqlxatda3Z3jaKBQOBzBKpYk-G9w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6OZykbnLQw&feature=share&list=PLO6FJVqlxatda3Z3jaKBQOBzBKpYk-G9w)
thx
Chet
Ps
Justin very much appreciate your sharing as well as your olive branch .
both are examples of the right thing to do!
as they say In the Carribean "Foward Man" [Sigh.... would love some warm caribean sand on the chilly Feet ATM]
Quote from: ramset on January 24, 2014, 06:17:53 AM
JDC Has done a nice little Vid of What we are all looking for in the US at the moment ,,,HEAT
I was by Tesla's Niagra Falls powerplant yesterday ,,,the water falls are :o FROZEN
Apparently its happened before ,must have concerned the Powerplant builders just a bit?
Justin's movie
Here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6OZykbnLQw&feature=share&list=PLO6FJVqlxatda3Z3jaKBQOBzBKpYk-G9w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6OZykbnLQw&feature=share&list=PLO6FJVqlxatda3Z3jaKBQOBzBKpYk-G9w)
thx
Chet
Ps
Justin very much appreciate your sharing as well as your olive branch .
both are examples of the right thing to do!
as they say In the Carribean "Foward Man" [Sigh.... would love some warm caribean sand on the chilly Feet ATM]
Thanks for the plug. Also check out http://youtu.be/YVM7InF7FcQ I was able to get the internals much hotter than the video you posted. So hot my thermoters and thermocouples could not read it. Over 1000F, working on sealing the system before I do the efficiency tests. Too crude right now, I know I can get more heat out of it by fine tuning it.
Hi all
yes it works as described
http://youtu.be/eE2ViJmGp-E
good luck at all
laurent
Hi all
just made a lot of test today.
It seems that the reaction works everywhere on the substrate.
I cut some small portion and even reduced some to powder.
The best result seems to happen on the flat surfaces (i cut the honeycomb in the longitudinal direction, so i get some flat surface)
One thing that is very interesting is that when i place the HHO torch (without flame ) at 1 cm above a flat surface , the HHO jet create a dot of reaction that become very fast red hot than almost white hot, and than i get the flashback and the flame appears at the torch. And at this moment, without moving the torch (same position at 1 cm ), the dot is much less hot (only lightly red hot ).
So it seems that the flamless reaction is more efficient than the pure HHO flame.
This answers one of my question in the previous post, but need to be confirmed by further testing......so LENR perhaps ???? youp youp !! Don't shoot me down !!
Than i tried to inject moisture in the cat honeycomb, and than i could not get the reaction on the wet portion. So i think it will not work with my vapor from my LENR reactor. But who knows ??
Voila for today
Laurent
Quote from: woopy on January 26, 2014, 01:27:17 PM
Hi all
just made a lot of test today.
The best result seems to happen on the flat surfaces (i cut the honeycomb in the longitudinal direction, so i get some flat surface)
Woopy,
You may want to consider testing with one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/Minicat-Sensor-Spacer-Adapter-Extender/dp/B00CBKEC06
Quote from: woopy on January 26, 2014, 01:27:17 PM
Than i tried to inject moisture in the cat honeycomb, and than i could not get the reaction on the wet portion. So i think it will not work with my vapor from my LENR reactor. But who knows ??
May be you can let your vapour filter through some silica gel
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/400g-BAG-SILICA-GEL-SELF-INDICATING-FOR-GENERAL-USE-/281240594732?pt=UK_Packaging_Materials&hash=item417b3ee92c (http://www.ebay.fr/itm/400g-BAG-SILICA-GEL-SELF-INDICATING-FOR-GENERAL-USE-/281240594732?pt=UK_Packaging_Materials&hash=item417b3ee92c)
After some time the silica gel will be too moist, but you can dry the silica gel in your oven.
methods for reconditioning silica gel - Art Preservation Services (http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.apsnyc.com%2Fuploads%2FMethods%2520for%2520Reconditioning%2520Silica%2520Gel.pdf&ei=A1_lUtCNCtKYhQfe-YG4AQ&usg=AFQjCNFdMMQzegwa8evrcGX-z54tiGinlQ&sig2=74D9XG4E9x-dIyoGQMFEkg&bvm=bv.59930103,d.bGE)
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Woopy,
thanks for the vids - very interesting and entertaining :)
You could send the output of your cell through a water bubbler - to remove the droplets...
If we could separate the O2 and H2, and bubble them into two platinum electrodes - we'd have a fuel cell with electrical output...
How to make a simple hydrogen fuel-cell:
http://sci-toys.com/scitoys/scitoys/echem/fuel_cell/fuel_cell.html
Catalytic material has platinum or paladium which works a a substitute for platinum, and what it looks like is happening is the cat material seems to be able to act as a shorted fuel cell producing heat instead of electrical output. ???
Is the cat material dripping water, or is it evaporated instantly due to heat of the reaction?
Nice work Woopy ;)
Mags
I just saw that a universal catalysator is not that expensive, about 60.-- Euro new, should be available in most of the countries.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/BOSAL-UNIVERSAL-KATALYSATOR-KAT-099-948-BIS-3-LITER-OVAL-FORM-BENZIN-MOTOREN-/121170837235?pt=DE_Autoteile&hash=item1c36583ef3
Greetings, Conrad
just a short video to better explain my actual testing
http://youtu.be/MGspqCrkf1E
thank's to all of you for your interest
Laurent
The reaction of oxyhydrogen (Browm Gas, Knallgas) on platinum has been extensively researched since the 19th century.
It is an interesting "Heterogeneously Catalyzed Reaction", but not OU.
Please view the folowing links and scientific papers:
http://www.minotech.de/forschung/hho-technologie/heizen-mit-hho/ (in German, chapters 4 and 5 are on the topic)
(http://www.minotech.de/forschung/hho-technologie/heizen-mit-hho/)
http://books.google.at/books?id=TiG6eo4GVv8C&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=oxyhydrogen+platinum+reaction&source=bl&ots=qBVSwwT8H_&sig=Sd7h2UwzHqOR38VOH4vTsa7i7Qw&hl=de&sa=X&ei=KIrmUqWVM6GqyAOmpYGYBg&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=oxyhydrogen%20platinum%20reaction&f=false (http://books.google.at/books?id=TiG6eo4GVv8C&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=oxyhydrogen+platinum+reaction&source=bl&ots=qBVSwwT8H_&sig=Sd7h2UwzHqOR38VOH4vTsa7i7Qw&hl=de&sa=X&ei=KIrmUqWVM6GqyAOmpYGYBg&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=oxyhydrogen%20platinum%20reaction&f=false) (Heterogeneously Catalyzed Reactions, second half of the book page)
http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&ved=0CDAQFjABOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F222236058_Kinetics_of_the_hydrogen-oxygen_reaction_on_platinum%2Ffile%2F32bfe5118f770781c9.pdf&ei=tIvmUo_UD6Px4QSiy4HICg&usg=AFQjCNG5ON9V9e9YIdxDujAqDJhQ0XbN5A&bvm=bv.59930103,d.bGQ&cad=rja (http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&ved=0CDAQFjABOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F222236058_Kinetics_of_the_hydrogen-oxygen_reaction_on_platinum%2Ffile%2F32bfe5118f770781c9.pdf&ei=tIvmUo_UD6Px4QSiy4HICg&usg=AFQjCNG5ON9V9e9YIdxDujAqDJhQ0XbN5A&bvm=bv.59930103,d.bGQ&cad=rja) (the reaction is specified at the beginning of the article)
http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDwQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.platinummetalsreview.com%2Fpdf%2Fpmr-v10-i2-060-064.pdf&ei=9ozmUriUAeKM4AT-3oCwDg&usg=AFQjCNEiEl-ScmivigKiPxuqnfwVNXDs8Q&bvm=bv.59930103,d.bGE&cad=rja (http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDwQFjAB&url=http://www.platinummetalsreview.com/pdf/pmr-v10-i2-060-064.pdf&ei=9ozmUriUAeKM4AT-3oCwDg&usg=AFQjCNEiEl-ScmivigKiPxuqnfwVNXDs8Q&bvm=bv.59930103,d.bGE&cad=rja) (1966 some things were not clear yet)
http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CHoQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcfg.web.psi.ch%2Fclean_air.pdf&ei=9ozmUriUAeKM4AT-3oCwDg&usg=AFQjCNGGsifdttDfIT-TnQ4_lAKPDqd_Rg&bvm=bv.59930103,d.bGE&cad=rja (http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CHoQFjAI&url=http://cfg.web.psi.ch/clean_air.pdf&ei=9ozmUriUAeKM4AT-3oCwDg&usg=AFQjCNGGsifdttDfIT-TnQ4_lAKPDqd_Rg&bvm=bv.59930103,d.bGE&cad=rja)
It is not a debunk attempt, I just want to make people aware of the state of the art.
Greetings, Conrad
This discussion has inspired me to finish building my HHO generator. I bought the bits last autumn... It's all fixed inside a wheeled toolbox now. I tested it with plain tap water and it works really well. Cool. Just need to build the torch for it...
Thanks Conrad for the links... While it may not be officially OU, that would really depend on how easily the HHO was generated ;)... And it's certainly interesting - and perhaps with some modifications the catalyser could catalyse the LENR reaction and create deuterium / helium?
If the catalyser was made to be the -ve electrode - inside a partial-vacuum tube - then the H+ protons could maybe build up enough velocity to fuse when they strike the cathode... So the platinum cat would be the cathode - charged to a high potential - and the protons would be accelerated towards it - like an electron gun, but using protons instead...
Anyway, just an idea...
Woopy - your cat seems to be made of ceramic - and not aluminium? Can you tell me is it a conductor - or an insulator? I.e. could it be used as an electrode?
Thanks
Regards, Tim
PS: Here's a link to the HHO torch design I'm building...
http://www.instructables.com/id/Assemble-a-HHO-Mini-Torch-from-plumbing-parts/
PPS: Conrad - your links were so long they messed up the page width :(...
It's possible to place the URL as a normal hyperlink in the editor (see leftmost - world-with-page icon) - perhaps you could modify?
Hi all
thanks to all for sharing your links and proposals always very helpfull
today i stumbled upon this
http://youtu.be/eTuFuw6vAlo
Really fascinating to me
hope this helps
laurent
Quote from: woopy on January 27, 2014, 05:21:08 PM
Hi all
thanks to all for sharing your links and proposals always very helpfull
today i stumbled upon this
http://youtu.be/eTuFuw6vAlo (http://youtu.be/eTuFuw6vAlo)
Really fascinating to me
hope this helps
laurent
@Laurent:
This is called limelight:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen#Lighting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen#Lighting)
"Lighting: Many forms of oxyhydrogen lamps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_lighting) have been described, such as the limelight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limelight), which used an oxyhydrogen flame to heat a piece of lime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_oxide) to white hot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_body) incandescence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence).
[10] Because of the explosiveness of the oxyhydrogen, limelights have been replaced by electric lighting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_lighting)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limelight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limelight)
Almost any ceramic will work.
Again, I am not debunking, just stating what is known and has been used, but it was used before electricity, therefore now widely unknown.
Brown gas was one of the first gases researched extensively in the 19th century and at the beginning of the 20th century. It was also involved in the discovery of catalsyts like platinum. What can be done with HHO (platinum, ceramic light) can also be done with most natural gases but at higher temperatures. In fact the car catalysator is based on this principle.
HHO is still used in the jewelry industrie to weld platinum and gold without adding something (gold or platinum is just molten and flows together).
You can find almost all effects of HHO alone and on catalysts (platinum, ceramic) in the (rather old) literature. It would be wise to research that before doing all the research again. Start with what is already known, that saves time and resources. It hurts to see people stumbling upon things which are all well known for a long time and misinterpreting them.
A flame only has a very small hot region (a lance in the middle where the HHO reacts completely, on the outside of the flame most of the HHO escapes unburned). HHO on the catalyst (without visible flame) reacts immediately on a big surface area therefor the light and the intense heat. One can say that less HHO escapes unburned if blown on a catalyst.
Also note that many people got hurt playing with HHO (brown gas, Knallgas, oxyhydrogen).
Greetings, Conrad
Hey Woopy
The gas itself, no flame, reacts when it hits the cat material, and the flame happens because of the material getting hot or burning?
Just checking to be sure. The other vid it looks like you heated the core then applied just gas. But the hot spot happens with cold gas when the material is cold, right?
Would be interesting to cut out a 3 by 3 block of the cat and make a gas nozzle that was 'sealed' to one open side pumping the gas in all 9 holes. Would the whole block glow real bright, or possibly some flame out the other side. But then meter the gas to see how little it takes to produce a certain amount of heat. See, just blowing the gas to the surface of the block, some gas may not be cooking. Dunno. But if pushed through the holes, there will be more gas contacting more surface area possibly having more reaction with the material rather than burning off because of surface combustion or burn.
In the last vid, the spot was brighter with just gas, no tip flame. It might be that a lot of the heat with a flame at the tip, is happening in the flame instead of on the surface as compared to just raw gas contact where it seems the reaction is happening at the surface of the material.
I have a small block at my shop. Ill give it a go. Gota set up an hho gen. Have a couple setups already, just need to set them up, so they are set. Up. lol Cool stuff
Mags
Quote from: conradelektro on January 27, 2014, 11:57:05 AM
The reaction of oxyhydrogen (Browm Gas, Knallgas) on platinum has been extensively researched since the 19th century.
It is an interesting "Heterogeneously Catalyzed Reaction", but not OU.
Please view the folowing links and scientific papers:
http://www.minotech.de/forschung/hho-technologie/heizen-mit-hho/ (in German, chapters 4 and 5 are on the topic)
(http://www.minotech.de/forschung/hho-technologie/heizen-mit-hho/)
http://books.google.at/books?id=TiG6eo4GVv8C&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=oxyhydrogen+platinum+reaction&source=bl&ots=qBVSwwT8H_&sig=Sd7h2UwzHqOR38VOH4vTsa7i7Qw&hl=de&sa=X&ei=KIrmUqWVM6GqyAOmpYGYBg&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=oxyhydrogen%20platinum%20reaction&f=false (http://books.google.at/books?id=TiG6eo4GVv8C&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=oxyhydrogen+platinum+reaction&source=bl&ots=qBVSwwT8H_&sig=Sd7h2UwzHqOR38VOH4vTsa7i7Qw&hl=de&sa=X&ei=KIrmUqWVM6GqyAOmpYGYBg&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=oxyhydrogen%20platinum%20reaction&f=false) (Heterogeneously Catalyzed Reactions, second half of the book page)
http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&ved=0CDAQFjABOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F222236058_Kinetics_of_the_hydrogen-oxygen_reaction_on_platinum%2Ffile%2F32bfe5118f770781c9.pdf&ei=tIvmUo_UD6Px4QSiy4HICg&usg=AFQjCNG5ON9V9e9YIdxDujAqDJhQ0XbN5A&bvm=bv.59930103,d.bGQ&cad=rja (http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&ved=0CDAQFjABOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F222236058_Kinetics_of_the_hydrogen-oxygen_reaction_on_platinum%2Ffile%2F32bfe5118f770781c9.pdf&ei=tIvmUo_UD6Px4QSiy4HICg&usg=AFQjCNG5ON9V9e9YIdxDujAqDJhQ0XbN5A&bvm=bv.59930103,d.bGQ&cad=rja) (the reaction is specified at the beginning of the article)
http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDwQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.platinummetalsreview.com%2Fpdf%2Fpmr-v10-i2-060-064.pdf&ei=9ozmUriUAeKM4AT-3oCwDg&usg=AFQjCNEiEl-ScmivigKiPxuqnfwVNXDs8Q&bvm=bv.59930103,d.bGE&cad=rja (http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDwQFjAB&url=http://www.platinummetalsreview.com/pdf/pmr-v10-i2-060-064.pdf&ei=9ozmUriUAeKM4AT-3oCwDg&usg=AFQjCNEiEl-ScmivigKiPxuqnfwVNXDs8Q&bvm=bv.59930103,d.bGE&cad=rja) (1966 some things were not clear yet)
http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CHoQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcfg.web.psi.ch%2Fclean_air.pdf&ei=9ozmUriUAeKM4AT-3oCwDg&usg=AFQjCNGGsifdttDfIT-TnQ4_lAKPDqd_Rg&bvm=bv.59930103,d.bGE&cad=rja (http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CHoQFjAI&url=http://cfg.web.psi.ch/clean_air.pdf&ei=9ozmUriUAeKM4AT-3oCwDg&usg=AFQjCNGGsifdttDfIT-TnQ4_lAKPDqd_Rg&bvm=bv.59930103,d.bGE&cad=rja)
It is not a debunk attempt, I just want to make people aware of the state of the art.
Greetings, Conrad
I am the small time garage engineer that stumbled upon the effect and I agree we need an element of skepticism to this but at the same time, I found it very curious it was difficult to find any experiments of this effect with pure hho not Hydrogen + air mixtures. I was unable to find any YouTube videos or any good information online. Not a single person or group had built and tested an on demand hho catalytic heater. I had to go back 100 years to find anything on it. Then I started to find modern information where the United States Military was using the process to build Hydrogen Nuclear Reactors. I have tried to keep up with modern work on Cold Fusion or LENR and realized this process is a long the same lines as what they are doing.
One thing I can say is that sometimes, you cannot learn everything by trying to read a report or book. You have to get out there and run the experiments. Since there were really no video experiments before, I had nothing to go by.
I can tell you right now that this process is very very efficient at producing heat. The flame does not have to be lit. 99 percent of every hho heater attempt is using the tiny hho flame up against a metal or ceramic heat exchanger. The catalytic combustion of hho is much more powerful and intense in terms of heat output using the same amount of gas which is void of the flame. So its much more efficient than lighting the torch.
With 200 watts of power. I was able to bring the internals of a catalytic converter up over 1200F with the exterior of the cat around 600 degrees. Very very HOT for only 200 watts. The catalytic converter is a large chunk of metal with a large chunk of ceramic substrates inside. Nothing like a tiny 200 watt resistive type heater that is heating up a tiny coil of wire.
I will try to read all of the information. A couple of browsed I have already reviewed but from a person who is doing the experiments that has engineering credentials, I can definitely tell you this deserves more experimentation, study, and development.
The process also produces 99.99 percent pure hydrogen when used as a catalytic re-combiner off a hydrogen split cell so even without the heating uses, It can be used to purify hydrogen for safe bottling. Which was the road I was on until I stumbled upon an incredible amount of heat out.
Quote from: conradelektro on January 27, 2014, 06:31:22 PM
@Laurent:
This is called limelight:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen#Lighting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen#Lighting)
"Lighting: Many forms of oxyhydrogen lamps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_lighting) have been described, such as the limelight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limelight), which used an oxyhydrogen flame to heat a piece of lime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_oxide) to white hot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_body) incandescence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence).[10] Because of the explosiveness of the oxyhydrogen, limelights have been replaced by electric lighting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_lighting)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limelight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limelight)
Almost any ceramic will work.
Again, I am not debunking, just stating what is known and has been used, but it was used before electricity, therefore now widely unknown.
Brown gas was one of the first gases researched extensively in the 19th century and at the beginning of the 20th century. It was also involved in the discovery of catalsyts like platinum. What can be done with HHO (platinum, ceramic light) can also be done with most natural gases but at higher temperatures. In fact the car catalysator is based on this principle.
HHO is still used in the jewelry industrie to weld platinum and gold without adding something (gold or platinum is just molten and flows together).
You can find almost all effects of HHO alone and on catalysts (platinum, ceramic) in the (rather old) literature. It would be wise to research that before doing all the research again. Start with what is already known, that saves time and resources. It hurts to see people stumbling upon things which are all well known for a long time and misinterpreting them.
A flame only has a very small hot region (a lance in the middle where the HHO reacts completely, on the outside of the flame most of the HHO escapes unburned). HHO on the catalyst (without visible flame) reacts immediately on a big surface area therefor the light and the intense heat. One can say that less HHO escapes unburned if blown on a catalyst.
Also note that many people got hurt playing with HHO (brown gas, Knallgas, oxyhydrogen).
Greetings, Conrad
What woopy is demonstrating is not a "limelight" I have built a lime light and it doesn't function on the catalytic combustion of hho process. The flame is lit and is placed in contact with the lime causing the lime to emit a very bright light but emits very little "heat".
I have not found a hydro carbon fuel or gas yet that doesn't need to be pre heated or the substrate pre-heated to start the catalytic combustion process. Every catalytic heater on the market has a pre-heater. HHO in its purest forms reacts in seconds without the need for pre-heating and seems to produce more heat than the hydrocarbon. Most likely due to the pure oxygen content but none the less hho has more punch when it comes to catalytic combustion than any other hydrocarbon.
This process does not use the the hho flame. Only inputs of the gas in unaltered form straight out of the hho cell. The reaction is flameless and the only by product is pure and clean water. This is by far the safest way to heat with hho. One thing you cannot provide information on is on demand hho catalytic combustion heaters going up against the same wattage electric resistive heaters. The experiments do not exists. Most of the information your going to find is very old and only pertains to H2 with air mixtures. Very little on PURE HHO.
The process is not just useful for heat, which by the way after the experiments, is proving to be very efficent but has other fascinating uses which can empower the individual. We can use the process to purify Hydrogen gas to 99.99 percent so its safe for bottling. We can use the process to build our own solid state fuel cells or solid oxide fuel cells large enough to power a house or car and we can get the parts straight out of the junk yard.
For me, I haven't seen next to no work being done in the YouTube and online community to teach people about home brewing these types of technologies. Maybe you haven't done as much research as I've done but I can tell you one thing for certain. Yes the technology is very old but our own government has been investing billions in the research since the early 1900's and have built amazing technologies from it. Yet I don't know one person in my family, town, state, country that is using the same technology to power their homes, heat their homes, or power their cars. Generations before me are in the same boat. We haven't even been given a choice. I only started this research because I couldn't buy any of the technology on the shelf and nobody in my area, family included had even heard of it. I have come to realize that even something as simple as the Solar Hydrogen Storage system I have been developing could have been on the market decades ago and would cost no more than a Gaming console.
As I was looking for Hydrogen Catalytic heaters I also found the only establishments building them were institutions like Nasa and they were building kilowatt and megawatt systems. Yet again I could find no Hydrogen Catalytic heater for sale on the market even as small as a few hundred watts. All I could find was people who took it upon their-selves to convert off the shelf propane or natural gas catalytic heaters to hydrogen. Reports suggested Hydrogen runs hotter in these heaters too. Something aint jiving with that. No reason this stuff is not on the market, no reason my parents and grandparents have never used it or even heard of it. No reason I have to use a toxic hydrocarbon like propane when the same equipment could be retrofitted to burn clean Hydrogen and the only by-product is water. Heating with hydrogen also means no ventilation is necessary.
This stuff is not hard to build, its not expensive to build, and its not as dangerous as everyone makes it out to be. Again as I said in the previous post. We need skepticism but for the most part, the only thing people can come up with as evidence that there is nothing to this effect is old reports. No video experiments of any of it exists. Thats a problem.
This effect deserves more study and development, not just for the home brewed heating applications but also the home brewed storage and fuel cell applications. It doesn't take tens of thousands of dollars to own a solar hydrogen unit or high kilowatt fuel cell system. It takes clever engineers using parts out of the junk yard to build the system that our corporate structure will not release into market.
Each Catalyst is Completely unique to its application,and will only Catalyse [or generate a reaction ] when the elements it was designed for are present.
Palladium loves hydrogen not carbon ,I am not sure there are Carbon catalysts that react this way.
I found that while researching the brush plating materials for Palladium that the hydrogen in there plating solutions was a very big problem for these Palladium electrolyte manufactures .....
as pointed out this is a well known reaction studied more than you could imagine,unless this process makes more heat then the power to seperate the molecules in the first place
no one would heat there homes or heat there water with it since that would be wasting money .
an electric resistive heating element is almost 100 % efficient
if the HHO does not beat a resistor in a comparison test then it is wasting energy and money to go this way.
That being said I hope someone does the Rediculously Simple test outlined in this thread
"fixed loss to ambient" test.
Justin My Offer stands ,I will send you all you need to do this test,I am hoping it Kicks the resistors Butt!
Thx
Chet
Quote from: jdc.products@gmail.com on January 28, 2014, 03:18:53 AM
I am the small time garage engineer that stumbled upon the effect and I agree we need an element of skepticism to this but at the same time, I found it very curious it was difficult to find any experiments of this effect with pure hho not Hydrogen + air mixtures. I was unable to find any YouTube videos or any good information online. Not a single person or group had built and tested an on demand hho catalytic heater. I had to go back 100 years to find anything on it. Then I started to find modern information where the United States Military was using the process to build Hydrogen Nuclear Reactors. I have tried to keep up with modern work on Cold Fusion or LENR and realized this process is a long the same lines as what they are doing.
One thing I can say is that sometimes, you cannot learn everything by trying to read a report or book. You have to get out there and run the experiments. Since there were really no video experiments before, I had nothing to go by.
My only point is that a literature search saves a lot of work. You have to go to the library of a University. The libraries can all be searched online today. In Austria everybody can have online and physical access to the University libraries for 10.-- EUR a year. You need that to find useful literature.
Quote from: jdc.products@gmail.com on January 28, 2014, 03:18:53 AM
I can tell you right now that this process is very very efficient at producing heat. The flame does not have to be lit. 99 percent of every hho heater attempt is using the tiny hho flame up against a metal or ceramic heat exchanger. The catalytic combustion of hho is much more powerful and intense in terms of heat output using the same amount of gas which is void of the flame. So its much more efficient than lighting the torch.
Yes, I agree.
Quote from: jdc.products@gmail.com on January 28, 2014, 03:18:53 AM
I can definitely tell you this deserves more experimentation, study, and development.
Yes, but do it right, do not ignore the relevant literature. That sounds difficult, but it saves you years of research.
Quote from: jdc.products@gmail.com on January 28, 2014, 03:52:54 AM
What woopy is demonstrating is not a "limelight" I have built a lime light and it doesn't function on the catalytic combustion of hho process. The flame is lit and is placed in contact with the lime causing the lime to emit a very bright light but emits very little "heat".
I do not want to go into that right now, it is a very difficult subject which needs a lot of knowledge to be discussed in a meaningful way.
Quote from: jdc.products@gmail.com on January 28, 2014, 03:52:54 AM
I have not found a hydro carbon fuel or gas yet that doesn't need to be pre heated or the substrate pre-heated to start the catalytic combustion process. Every catalytic heater on the market has a pre-heater. HHO in its purest forms reacts in seconds without the need for pre-heating and seems to produce more heat than the hydrocarbon. Most likely due to the pure oxygen content but none the less hho has more punch when it comes to catalytic combustion than any other hydrocarbon.
Yes, I agree. HHO is the only gas which can do the reaction at room temperature with a catalyst like platinum.
Quote from: jdc.products@gmail.com on January 28, 2014, 03:52:54 AM
This process does not use the the hho flame. Only inputs of the gas in unaltered form straight out of the hho cell. The reaction is flameless and the only by product is pure and clean water. This is by far the safest way to heat with hho.
Yes, I agree.
Quote from: jdc.products@gmail.com on January 28, 2014, 03:52:54 AM
For me, I haven't seen next to no work being done in the YouTube and online community to teach people about home brewing these types of technologies. Maybe you haven't done as much research as I've done but I can tell you one thing for certain. Yes the technology is very old but our own government has been investing billions in the research since the early 1900's and have built amazing technologies from it. Yet I don't know one person in my family, town, state, country that is using the same technology to power their homes, heat their homes, or power their cars. Generations before me are in the same boat. We haven't even been given a choice. I only started this research because I couldn't buy any of the technology on the shelf and nobody in my area, family included had even heard of it. I have come to realize that even something as simple as the Solar Hydrogen Storage system I have been developing could have been on the market decades ago and would cost no more than a Gaming console.
As I was looking for Hydrogen Catalytic heaters I also found the only establishments building them were institutions like Nasa and they were building kilowatt and megawatt systems. Yet again I could find no Hydrogen Catalytic heater for sale on the market even as small as a few hundred watts. All I could find was people who took it upon their-selves to convert off the shelf propane or natural gas catalytic heaters to hydrogen. Reports suggested Hydrogen runs hotter in these heaters too. Something aint jiving with that. No reason this stuff is not on the market, no reason my parents and grandparents have never used it or even heard of it. No reason I have to use a toxic hydrocarbon like propane when the same equipment could be retrofitted to burn clean Hydrogen and the only by-product is water. Heating with hydrogen also means no ventilation is necessary.
Yes, again, do not ignore the literature, but you have to use a University library. YouTube does not give you the information needed.
Quote from: jdc.products@gmail.com on January 28, 2014, 03:52:54 AM
This stuff is not hard to build, its not expensive to build, and its not as dangerous as everyone makes it out to be. Again as I said in the previous post. We need skepticism but for the most part, the only thing people can come up with as evidence that there is nothing to this effect is old reports. No video experiments of any of it exists. Thats a problem.
This effect deserves more study and development, not just for the home brewed heating applications but also the home brewed storage and fuel cell applications. It doesn't take tens of thousands of dollars to own a solar hydrogen unit or high kilowatt fuel cell system. It takes clever engineers using parts out of the junk yard to build the system that our corporate structure will not release into market.
Still, be careful, it may explode if you make an error. And again, do it the right way, search the literature first. I know, it is boring to search the relevant literature, but every researcher learns the hard way (by doing things which have been done before again and again) not to ignore an exhaustive literature search. Wherever you live, go to the nearest University and explore how you can have access to its library, online and physical access. I might be easier than you think.
Very essential in chemistry is acces to that http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_Abstracts_Service (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_Abstracts_Service)
I do not want to discourage experiments, but you have to do it right in order to have success. Do not underestimate the knowledge which is already available. The fore front of research is much more advanced than you might think. Use what is already here, do not start in the 19th century by ignoring what has been found since then.
Yes, it is unfair that you need tons of information and expensive equipment to do advanced research, but how do you want to overcome that? By a home experiment? You can only find the real uncovered areas in science by understanding what has already been covered. You can not fight with a stick against high tech guns.
Greetings, Conrad
Just for clarity.
all you need to test this is a cardboard box and a thermometer.Thats it nothing else !!
if you know your input power to the HHO cell?
say its taking you 30 watts to make your gas? [BTW 30 watts can make a resistor white hot 1000 F or higher easily]
put the "reactor" in a washing machine sized cardboard box
just place the box over the unit. put a thermometer lead into the box .
[hang the lead inside ]
run the "reactor".. when the heat stops rising in the box .write down the temp.
now take a 30 watt light bulb or soldering iron or
whatever resistive element you have handy.
run the test again.
compare your final temperature rise against ambient [temp outside the box]
this is a fixed loss to ambient test .
who won??
thx
Chet
PS I have simplfied the experiment, however running the comparison test together is the best way. [simultaneously]
also the most fun .
caloric measurement is the tool you must have to play in this field ,
to deny yourself this tool would be a shame ,besides its fun to have a line in the sand
to beat [the resistor being that benchmark]
this way you can check if you are OU in a few moments time!
Quote from: conradelektro on January 27, 2014, 11:57:05 AM
The reaction of oxyhydrogen (Browm Gas, Knallgas) on platinum has been extensively researched since the 19th century.
It is an interesting "Heterogeneously Catalyzed Reaction", but not OU.
Please view the folowing links and scientific papers:
http://www.minotech.de/forschung/hho-technologie/heizen-mit-hho/ (in German, chapters 4 and 5 are on the topic)
(http://www.minotech.de/forschung/hho-technologie/heizen-mit-hho/)
http://books.google.at/books?id=TiG6eo4GVv8C&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=oxyhydrogen+platinum+reaction&source=bl&ots=qBVSwwT8H_&sig=Sd7h2UwzHqOR38VOH4vTsa7i7Qw&hl=de&sa=X&ei=KIrmUqWVM6GqyAOmpYGYBg&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=oxyhydrogen%20platinum%20reaction&f=false (http://books.google.at/books?id=TiG6eo4GVv8C&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=oxyhydrogen+platinum+reaction&source=bl&ots=qBVSwwT8H_&sig=Sd7h2UwzHqOR38VOH4vTsa7i7Qw&hl=de&sa=X&ei=KIrmUqWVM6GqyAOmpYGYBg&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=oxyhydrogen%20platinum%20reaction&f=false) (Heterogeneously Catalyzed Reactions, second half of the book page)
http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&ved=0CDAQFjABOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F222236058_Kinetics_of_the_hydrogen-oxygen_reaction_on_platinum%2Ffile%2F32bfe5118f770781c9.pdf&ei=tIvmUo_UD6Px4QSiy4HICg&usg=AFQjCNG5ON9V9e9YIdxDujAqDJhQ0XbN5A&bvm=bv.59930103,d.bGQ&cad=rja (http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&ved=0CDAQFjABOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F222236058_Kinetics_of_the_hydrogen-oxygen_reaction_on_platinum%2Ffile%2F32bfe5118f770781c9.pdf&ei=tIvmUo_UD6Px4QSiy4HICg&usg=AFQjCNG5ON9V9e9YIdxDujAqDJhQ0XbN5A&bvm=bv.59930103,d.bGQ&cad=rja) (the reaction is specified at the beginning of the article)
http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDwQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.platinummetalsreview.com%2Fpdf%2Fpmr-v10-i2-060-064.pdf&ei=9ozmUriUAeKM4AT-3oCwDg&usg=AFQjCNEiEl-ScmivigKiPxuqnfwVNXDs8Q&bvm=bv.59930103,d.bGE&cad=rja (http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDwQFjAB&url=http://www.platinummetalsreview.com/pdf/pmr-v10-i2-060-064.pdf&ei=9ozmUriUAeKM4AT-3oCwDg&usg=AFQjCNEiEl-ScmivigKiPxuqnfwVNXDs8Q&bvm=bv.59930103,d.bGE&cad=rja) (1966 some things were not clear yet)
http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CHoQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcfg.web.psi.ch%2Fclean_air.pdf&ei=9ozmUriUAeKM4AT-3oCwDg&usg=AFQjCNGGsifdttDfIT-TnQ4_lAKPDqd_Rg&bvm=bv.59930103,d.bGE&cad=rja (http://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CHoQFjAI&url=http://cfg.web.psi.ch/clean_air.pdf&ei=9ozmUriUAeKM4AT-3oCwDg&usg=AFQjCNGGsifdttDfIT-TnQ4_lAKPDqd_Rg&bvm=bv.59930103,d.bGE&cad=rja)
It is not a debunk attempt, I just want to make people aware of the state of the art.
Greetings, Conrad
I read over the reports. Most of them I have seen and I would encourage you to do some more digging on this effect and post what you come up with. I wasn't impressed. None of them utilized pure hho out of a hho cell. One of the reports said hho would ignite so they had to pump air in lol, which will significantly reduce the efficiency of the reaction inside the reactor. That is a no no. We have already begun the process of solving the flashback and its very simple, diffusion and or creating a nano structure where flame propagation cannot occur.
Another report was studying the effect over a noble metal wire? Really? Its a tiny whiny wire, nothing to write home about.
I didn't see anything listed to suggest the effect was studied at all levels and scales possible. I'm seeing a bunch of tiny experiments which were not engineered correctly to be utilized in any useful way. Any actual fully functional on demand HHO or Hydrogen cataylytic heaters in the range of 250-1000 watts (something that blue collar Joe would use and not something so large a space colony would need)? I don't even care if the tests proved terrible inefficiencies, I just want to see the reports.
Got more information you can post? I had a hard time finding anything, this is what the forums are about right? sharing information that one person is seeking which another person has found? So far I have found out that 90 percent of the community didn't even know about the effect, the other 10 percent say its old news but haven't hit hard with any relevant information.
And please explain to me why the big boys at Nasa, MIT, Corporate LENR / Cold Fusion companies like Black Light Power, Brillouin, Rossi, Defkalian are all suggesting Hydrogen or different isotopic structures of Hydrogen sent through a catalyst metal like Nickel, Platinum, Palladium is producing useful amounts of excess heat, which is clean and pure? Nuclear Fusion at room temperatures if you will. Are you suggesting these guys are fools and the accredited scientists, engineers, and ph-d's are spending millions if not billions of dollars at the corporate level to develop this stuff because there is nothing to it?
What I find interesting are the people that claim all this has been done before by people who were using stone tools and we never seemed to figure out a way to make the technology useful. Its water for god sakes. Of course we should be doing everything we can to utilize it. Forgetting about the exotic side and absolute mind boggling power densities of the Cold Fusion LENR technology, We all could easily be producing and storing our own Hydrogen using cheap solar and wind. No expensive high pressure storage of Hydrogen is needed either. You see anybody doing it? I aint never been able to go to Lowes or HomeDepot and buy a solar hydrogen system and my parents didn't either.
I just don't get the people that stick their nose up at some of this stuff like there is nothing to it and then provide really weak documentation as their evidence. To an uneducated individual, they may read your thread, click on the links and agree with you but I cannot. Something isn't adding up with this tech. Nobody really knows much about it, people that say they do usually have never built, tested, or used any of the systems, only regurgitating what was told to them or something they read out of a book or report.
Justin
I see you are an early riser too?
BTW You copied Conrads monster link and placed it on this page [your quote above] it makes the page hard to read [you have to move the mouse back and forth]
can you remove that Conrad quote above [the page will go back to normal ]
also I am not saying anything against this being Special,what I am saying is the test to measure it is soooooo simple .
and now that you [and we hopefuly] are playing in this field .doing caloric measurement is mandatory for making advancement
not an option!
thx
Chet
Quote from: jdc.products@gmail.com on January 28, 2014, 06:34:25 AM
I read over the reports. Most of them I have seen and I would encourage you to do some more digging on this effect and post what you come up with. I wasn't impressed. None of them utilized pure hho out of a hho cell. One of the reports said hho would ignite so they had to pump air in lol, which will significantly reduce the efficiency of the reaction inside the reactor. That is a no no. We have already begun the process of solving the flashback and its very simple, diffusion and or creating a nano structure where flame propagation cannot occur.
Another report was studying the effect over a noble metal wire? Really? Its a tiny whiny wire, nothing to write home about.
I didn't see anything listed to suggest the effect was studied at all levels and scales possible. I'm seeing a bunch of tiny experiments which were not engineered correctly to be utilized in any useful way. Any actual fully functional on demand HHO or Hydrogen cataylytic heaters in the range of 250-1000 watts (something that blue collar Joe would use and not something so large a space colony would need)? I don't even care if the tests proved terrible inefficiencies, I just want to see the reports.
Got more information you can post? I had a hard time finding anything, this is what the forums are about right? sharing information that one person is seeking which another person has found? So far I have found out that 90 percent of the community didn't even know about the effect, the other 10 percent say its old news but haven't hit hard with any relevant information.
I did a quick search just to show that the effects Woopy was showing are known and that the reaction is known and that the platinum as a catlyst is known. Sorry, it is bad of me that I do not jump into a two month literature search. But I would do it if I wanted to do research in this area. It was meant as good advice. Of course, advise is cheap, doing it would be better. But verybody has his own pet project, and HHO is not my pet project.
Woopy was asking what kind of reaction is that and I provided a link to a paper which describes the reaction at the beginning. Sorry, that you knew the reaction already.
Quote from: jdc.products@gmail.com on January 28, 2014, 06:34:25 AM
And please explain to me why the big boys at Nasa, MIT, Corporate LENR / Cold Fusion companies like Black Light Power, Brillouin, Rossi, Defkalian are all suggesting Hydrogen or different isotopic structures of Hydrogen sent through a catalyst metal like Nickel, Platinum, Palladium is producing useful amounts of excess heat, which is clean and pure? Nuclear Fusion at room temperatures if you will. Are you suggesting these guys are fools and the accredited scientists, engineers, and ph-d's are spending millions if not billions of dollars at the corporate level to develop this stuff because there is nothing to it?
I think there is something to it, but it is a bit further out on a branch of the knowledge tree than many think.
Quote from: jdc.products@gmail.com on January 28, 2014, 06:34:25 AM
What I find interesting are the people that claim all this has been done before by people who were using stone tools and we never seemed to figure out a way to make the technology useful. Its water for god sakes. Of course we should be doing everything we can to utilize it. Forgetting about the exotic side and absolute mind boggling power densities of the Cold Fusion LENR technology, We all could easily be producing and storing our own Hydrogen using cheap solar and wind. No expensive high pressure storage of Hydrogen is needed either. You see anybody doing it? I aint never been able to go to Lowes or HomeDepot and buy a solar hydrogen system and my parents didn't either.
I just don't get the people that stick their nose up at some of this stuff like there is nothing to it and then provide really weak documentation as their evidence. To an uneducated individual, they may read your thread, click on the links and agree with you but I cannot. Something isn't adding up with this tech. Nobody really knows much about it, people that say they do usually have never built, tested, or used any of the systems, only regurgitating what was told to them or something they read out of a book or report.
Attacking me will not advance your research. Sorry that I wrote something, it was received in the wrong way. I am not the enemy, I just wanted to help. I only wanted to document the obvious which many people do not seem to know. You stated yourself that only few people know about it. I just wanted to show that what Woopy shows in his videos is not some unknown mysterious process never seen before. Yes, it is interesting, but I wanted to put it into perspective. It was not meant to replace a literature search.
I shut up now, because I do not want to provide the neccessary help, which would be an exhaustive literature search.
Greetings, Conrad
haha, this is what happens when I type. I upset people for some reason. If I feel like a post is negative in its content, I'm going to fire back and ask questions to that person. Nobody should get upset. Just help me find more detailed information with some meat on the bone. I'm working as hard as I can to provide the cold hard data but I'm sure the stuff was done before and is well known because a lot of people tell me so. I just want to see the data and videos. Not trying to step on toes or belittle anyone, I just want answers. The answers I'm getting isn't tangible enough to satisfy the quest.
When I speak, I am speaking in terms of generalizations and do not intentionally point the finger at any one soul. Its just I've been through this time and time again. People try to make me feel like the technology is outdated and insignificant but can't provide evidence of fully functional systems only tiny bench top experiments and some lovely math to go along with it.
Its ok for people to make me feel like I'm wasting my time but its not ok for me to flip the switch and point out why I felt a persons posts was not acceptable?
I know what it is, I'm usually right when I point these things out and it upsets people. Thats ok though. You guys just keep paying attention. This technology is going places....
I want to make a point because I am very often misunderstood:
Let's say you built a color televison set at home with much effort and many hand made components. This would be a great achievemnet, but why not study the art of colour televison first and begin research at where the technology is now?
It is not an advancement to show again and again that colour televison is possible in principle. You have to show a better colour televison than is availbale right now.
I hope one understands the argument.
Greetings, Conrad
Quote from: conradelektro on January 28, 2014, 07:47:39 AM
I want to make a point because I am very often misunderstood:
Greetings, Conrad
Let's say you built a color televison set at home with much effort and many hand made components. This would be a great achievemnet, but why not study the art of colour televison first and begin research at where the technology is now?
It is not an advancement to show again and again that colour televison is possible in principle. You have to show a better colour televison than is availbale right now.
I hope one understands the argument.
I understand the argument but do not see how it applies to this effect as it pertains to home based heating. You stated its not an advancement to show again and again the color television is possible in principle.You have to show a better color television than is available now?
Getting back to the technology in question. There doesn't seem to be any type of on demand catalytic heater now or before, so building one is indeed an "advancement" since it seems the idea was only on paper before.
I have asked everyone to provide me with evidence of an on demand well engineered fully functional hho catalytic heater in the range of 250-1000 watts with accurate measurements and details of the build. If this is something that has been done, it sure is hard to find solid evidence. lol. This is so funny to me.
Justin
quote
""
I have asked everyone to provide me with evidence of an on demand well engineered fully functional hho catalytic heater in the range of 250-1000 watts with accurate measurements and details of the build. If this is something that has been done, it sure is hard to find solid evidence. lol. This is so funny to me.""
end quote
----------------------
Justin
If you test it they will come...............
a cardboard box a thermometer, and probably ten minutes of your time!
thx
Chet
Quote from: jdc.products@gmail.com on January 28, 2014, 11:54:25 AM
Getting back to the technology in question. There doesn't seem to be any type of on demand catalytic heater now or before, so building one is indeed an "advancement" since it seems the idea was only on paper before.
I have asked everyone to provide me with evidence of an on demand well engineered fully functional hho catalytic heater in the range of 250-1000 watts with accurate measurements and details of the build. If this is something that has been done, it sure is hard to find solid evidence. lol. This is so funny to me.
We are talking in two different directions and therefore we are not hearing each other.
I talked about the underlying science, the chemical reactions and the basic scientific experiments (catalyst supported reactions) in the context of HHO. And I claim that the basic science is known since a long time. And the experiments I saw on YouTube are also known in principle since a long time. And if one wants to know more about the science behind all that, the scientific literature from 1900 to 2013 would be a good place to begin.
Now,
you seem to talk about an engineering issue. Right, nobody has built a useful HHO/catalsyt heater for home use or for boats and vehicles. And it is a worth while project to develop and to build one. And the engineering problems could even be harder than the science angle, because the scientists were probably not thinking about usability, practicability, production costs and everyday safety problems.
Then there is the OU speculation. If one wants to research that one has to go back to the science issues. What has not been understood? Are there questions left open? What are exactly these questions? And specially if one wants to go in the OU direction a literature search would be the starting point, even for several years, because every aspect has to be understood before claiming something new and unknown.
And there is the political or sociological angle. Why has nobody built "a well engineered fully functional hho catalytic heater in the range of 250-1000 watts with accurate measurements". I say, it would have been possible, the science was available, but good engineering was never financed. Why? If you like conspiracies, it was big oil. If you are as much frustrated by human nature as I am, you would say that humans are too damned stupid to do much right.
Now I want to wander off topic because it fits into this discussion:
Would we have all the advances in AC technology we enjoy today if Westinghouse had not financed the firts useful AC power plant in the Niagara Falls. So, Tesla provided the genius and even the engineering, but without the money of Westinghouse he would have been ignored.
I do not know the answer, but on bad days I believe that financing, politics, religion and even hypes are the driving forces in our society. We always seem to have an abundance of good ideas, technologies and scientific discoveries, but we always fuck up for the most stupid reasons. It is never logic or efficiency or reason that drives humans along, it is a muddled and unclear mechanism mainly driven by chance.
I am sure you still think that I want to torpedo your project, but I am not.
Greetings, Conrad
JDC & Conrad,
I spent the whole of the last page having to scroll right - because Conrad posted some really long links - and ignored my suggestion of hiding them as a proper hyperlink... :(
I was sooo pleased when the new page number (3) came round... :D
Then JDC 'quoted' Conrad's offending post - and again - everyone has to scroll right to read it. :(
JDC - If you're still about - please edit your quote of Conrad's post so we can read this page easily!
Thanks.
PS: And please run Chet's test... :)
Jdc products and Hydrofuelincanada,
Congradulations on this thread and others.
Its great to see a new pet project with HOH aka HHO
My personal feelings are if you can trade nickels and get
heat from your reaction then its worth doing regardless of
What's going on around you. Remember all great
Discoveries come from observations of there findings.
Glad to see you do a little sticking up and house cleaning
I think you know what I mean.lol
David A. Puchta
HydroMe Truefuelcells
BlewMe Fuels Organically
I found it interesting to study the catalytic action in general and look at what is commercially available. The heat produced is in the wavelengths useful for heating objects.
This "Platinum Cat" heater was tested with hydrogen in the 1990's http://ventedcatheater.com/6.html (http://ventedcatheater.com/6.html)
1990's article ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/environment/alternative-energy/energy-resources/homepower-magazine/archives/34/34p26.txt
Industrial use http://www.bruestcatalyticheaters.com/pdfs/Bruest-Catalytic-Heaters.pdf
(http://www.bruestcatalyticheaters.com/pdfs/Bruest-Catalytic-Heaters.pdf)
"The thermal efficiency
of a catalytic heater is
substantially higher than a
conventional heater."
Seems a concern is to NOT overheat the catalyst by having a control of the fuel source volume and flow so it remains 'flameless'.
RD
Quote from: retrod on January 28, 2014, 07:02:32 PM
"The thermal efficiency
of a catalytic heater is
substantially higher than a
conventional heater."
Seems a concern is to NOT overheat the catalyst by having a control of the fuel source volume and flow so it remains 'flameless'.
RD
Those were some points I was getting at in my earlier posts. So it can remain flameless. ;) Thanks
And as I suspected, platinum is key.
Mags
I just saw this today:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/01/20140128-kingsbury.html (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/01/20140128-kingsbury.html)
Quote from: retrod on January 28, 2014, 07:02:32 PM
I found it interesting to study the catalytic action in general and look at what is commercially available. The heat produced is in the wavelengths useful for heating objects.
This "Platinum Cat" heater was tested with hydrogen in the 1990's http://ventedcatheater.com/6.html (http://ventedcatheater.com/6.html)
1990's article ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/environment/alternative-energy/energy-resources/homepower-magazine/archives/34/34p26.txt
Industrial use http://www.bruestcatalyticheaters.com/pdfs/Bruest-Catalytic-Heaters.pdf
(http://www.bruestcatalyticheaters.com/pdfs/Bruest-Catalytic-Heaters.pdf)
"The thermal efficiency
of a catalytic heater is
substantially higher than a
conventional heater."
Seems a concern is to NOT overheat the catalyst by having a control of the fuel source volume and flow so it remains 'flameless'.
RD
Great information. I had the text file from back in the 90s which got me super excited about this. I really like the information in the first page of the pdf. I didn't have that one as part of my files. Thanks so much. Makes me wish I had known about this a couple of years ago.
I did a little search (just on the Internet).
jdc.products is right about HHO-catalyst heaters. All is about natural gas catalyst heaters.
Since oil and natural gas were and still are so easily available and comparatively cheap the world turned and still turns around oil and natural gas. This will change. The oil and gas crisis will not be an overnight event but a gradual increase of price and a gradual decrease of availability for the average citizen (over decades).
The big days of HHO were in the late 19th century and the early 20th century, so one would have to go through the literature of that time. But this literature is seldom digitized, often not even the bibliographical data, so one has to deal with real books and real paper in many locations (University libraries and even museums), which is a chore. I am sure that there is a lot of information buried.
Splitting water with electricity from solar panels and then burning the HHO in a catalyst oven for sure is a neat concept. But one should not underestimate storage and safety problems with HHO. Also the catalyst (platinum sponge or gauze) will be soiled after a while by residues of the chemical reaction.
The best approach might be to store the electricity from solar panels in conventional batteries and then to create HHO on demand with the electricity from the batteries to avoid storage of HHO. Trivial efficiency calculations do not apply because the sun is shining for free. Of course one could add wind turbines for electricity generation.
The problem is to engineer the whole package (solar panels, batteries, water splitter, catalyst heater) in a way to make it practical and not too expensive.
The question: Let's say electric energy was collected in a battery (by help of solar panels and wind generators). What is more efficient? To use the energy from the battery in a resistor heating (the conventional electric panel heaters) or to split water with the electricity from the battery and to burn the HHO in a catalyst heater? My first thought, the direct way (resistor heating) should be more efficient?
So, all comes down to the question: How or from where do you get the HHO?
And: Do you store HHO?
Just contemplating and dreaming, Conrad
Quote from: conradelektro on January 29, 2014, 04:11:17 AM
I did a little search (just on the Internet).
jdc.products is right about HHO-catalyst heaters. All is about natural gas catalyst heaters.
Since oil and natural gas were and still are so easily available and comparatively cheap the world turned and still turns around oil and natural gas. This will change. The oil and gas crisis will not be an overnight event but a gradual increase of price and a gradual decrease of availability for the average citizen (over decades).
The big days of HHO were in the late 19th century and the early 20th century, so one would have to go through the literature of that time. But this literature is seldom digitized, often not even the bibliographical data, so one has to deal with real books and real paper in many locations (University libraries and even museums), which is a chore. I am sure that there is a lot of information buried.
Splitting water with electricity from solar panels and then burning the HHO in a catalyst oven for sure is a neat concept. But one should not underestimate storage and safety problems with HHO. Also the catalyst (platinum sponge or gauze) will be soiled after a while by residues of the chemical reaction.
The best approach might be to store the electricity from solar panels in conventional batteries and then to create HHO on demand with the electricity from the batteries to avoid storage of HHO. Trivial efficiency calculations do not apply because the sun is shining for free. Of course one could add wind turbines for electricity generation.
The problem is to engineer the whole package (solar panels, batteries, water splitter, catalyst heater) in a way to make it practical and not too expensive.
The question: Let's say electric energy was collected in a battery (by help of solar panels and wind generators). What is more efficient? To use the energy from the battery in a resistor heating (the conventional electric panel heaters) or to split water with the electricity from the battery and to burn the HHO in a catalyst heater? My first thought, the direct way (resistor heating) should be more efficient?
So, all comes down to the question: How or from where do you get the HHO?
And: Do you store HHO?
Just contemplating and dreaming, Conrad
Awesome thoughts and information. Yes hho was in its prime over a hundred years ago and it has been very difficult to find relevant information anywhere on pure hho. You will have no problem on finding information and numbers as it pertains to Hydrogen or H2 but most of the online information as it pertains to hho is surrounded by fringe and crackpot science. Really sad but true. Where I am located, local libraries have become a thing of the past and have nearly turned into a full fledged computer lab. The available hard copy books and information are very narrow in scope. Nothing to be found on HHO. University libraries and museums would be of no use as the distance to travel would not be practical and most likely you will end up empty handed.
It would be nice to see the modern day scientific community and universities around the globe doing studies on the analysis of hho and publishing their findings but sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too. Most of us have to learn as we go.
HHO gas can be stored safely but its NOT recommended for beginners or the faint of heart. The gas packs a nasty punch when ignited in confined spaces or pressurized containers. Some Military defense contractors decades ago were using hho as a propellant for a Space Cannon in which they were testing the feasibility of launching small satellites into orbit from ground level. To be absolutely safe, no one should pressurize hho. All of us use the gas on demand because of the dangers involved with pressurization of the gas. Low on demand flow rates of the gas is very safe when using the proper safety equipment such as a safety bubbler and flashback arrestor.
The first prototype catalytic combustion of hho space heater will be ran using grid power but can easily be ran from battery banks in case of a power outage without much effort. Estimated wattage will be somewhere between 2-400 watts. The hope will be higher heat output compared to the same wattage resistive type heater. What little bit of information you can find on catalytic hho heating it is suggesting up to 4x in terms of input wattage vs output heat. This has yet to be verified but crude testing has me excited the idea may prove out to be true. If testing validates any type of efficiency over comparable electric resistive space heaters then it is economical and practical to run the hho heating system from grid power. This early in the testing one can only hope and make excited assumptions.
Solar and Wind are viable mechanisms for producing power to run the electrolysis systems when needed. Excess power can be sent to be stored in battery banks for future use if needed but the hope is to get rid of the heavy batteries and replace with fuel cells and storage tanks for the Hydrogen and Oxygen. That is probably a few years out for me at the pace of things recently but for now the H-Cat heater will be initially ran using grid power.
Hopefully in the next few weeks, I will have the system fully built to really put it to the test.
What utter garbage this whole HHO thing is. It's simply a 2 to 1 stoichiometric mix of H2 and 02 gasses.
Incredibly dangerous to store.
Why not simply keep the hydrogen and store that, which is a far safer thing to do.
Quote from: LibreEnergia on January 29, 2014, 05:34:28 AM
What utter garbage this whole HHO thing is. It's simply a 2 to 1 stoichiometric mix of H2 and 02 gasses.
Incredibly dangerous to store.
Why not simply keep the hydrogen and store that, which is a far safer thing to do.
Garbage? I'm not in the mood to write you off but let me clarify a few things. HHO can be safely stored but its NOT recommended. Yes it is far safer to store H2 and is something I'm working on. I can use the Catalytic Converter to purify the gas out of my split cell.
That is really not what this thread is about. I was answering some questions from the previous poster before you decided to enlighten us with your ignorance and repeat the same thing I just said.
This thread is about on demand hho used in a catalytic combustion process to yield heat for space heating. Got anything else you would like to add from the peanut gallery?
Conrad
I was surprised at how efficient resistive heating actually is,it will come down to Dollars.
we know we can take 10 dollars worth of electricity and get almost 10 dollars worth of heat from it with a resistor.
if we take 10 dollars worth of electricity and make HHO with it ,and then we get 7 dollars worth of heat minus all the extra infrastucture of the HHO system and its costs/concerns.
It will all comes down to dollars in this instance ,
I am not sure why Justin has not thrown a box over that Cat yet /being a man I can only imagine he has the same curiosity as Myself ,anytime I build anything or change anything the very first thing I do is test it before I make any claims or changes ,this is how we engineer .
Especially before I ask others to participate and help?
and this being the most simple test a person could imagine a box and a thermometer???
however seeing that small reaction zone in the Video making only 1000F with all that energy I suspect he has done some testing and is trying to figure out how to get more heat from it before he does a formal public test.
I think he will have fun playing with it there are other reactions taking place in this cat
during the recombination proccess [vacuum] .
It is a cool thing to see and we all need the heat.
I got my fingers crossed..............
Like yourself Conrad I have other irons in the fire ,there just doesn't seem to be enough time to play with everything................
Thx
Chet
ps
I see Justin made two posts since I sarted typing a responce to Conrad......
good morning again Justin,
Have a good day
Quote from: ramset on January 29, 2014, 05:55:00 AM
Conrad
I was surprised at how efficient resistive heating actually is,it will come down to Dollars.
we know we can take 10 dollars worth of electricity and get almost 10 dollars worth of heat from it with a resistor.
if we take 10 dollars worth of electricity and make HHO with it ,and then we get 7 dollars worth of heat minus all the extra infrastucture of the HHO system and its costs/concerns.
It will all comes down to dollars in this instance ,
I am not sure why Justin has not thrown a box over that Cat yet /being a man I can only imagine he has the same curiosity as Myself ,anytime I build anything or change anything the very first thing I do is test it before I make any claims.
Especially before I ask others to participate and help?
and this being the most simple test a person could imagine a box and a thermometer???
however seeing that small reaction zone in the Video making only 1000F with all that energy I suspect he has done some testing and is trying to figure out how to get more heat from it before he does a formal public test.
I think he will have fun playing with it there are other reactions taking place in this cat
during the recombination proccess [vacuum] .
It is a cool thing to see and we all need the heat.
I got my fingers crossed..............
Like yourself Conrad I have other irons in the fire ,there just doesn't seem to be enough time to play with everything................
Thx
Chet
My God man you throwing out cheap shots now that I got upity with you? You really want to see this test ran huh? lol I'm not trying to figure out a way to produce more heat. I'm trying to make it safe and close the reaction chamber up before I run the tests. I have to add the insulation pad to diffuse the gas and y the hho output so I can activate the other side of the cat. Would you like me to half ass it?
The reaction zone was "small" as you say because the gas wasn't diffused out over the entire substrate and the temps were well above 1000F. I don't know what the peak temps were because none of my thermometers would read it.
10 dollars for the gas and 7 dollars worth of heat? Now your making assumptions. My threads and my introduction YouTube video is titled with ? indicating I do not know for sure. Yes I've become excited. I think if you were actually here and you could put your hands on this cat (lol) you would be excited too.
If you want to really know why I haven't put this thing under a carboard box yet I welcome you to come to my Home, meet my wife, stay for dinner (make sure you dress warm lol) and you will know exactly why I am more concerned about building the heater than worrying about efficiency tests. Anything is better than what I have now.
Again, the catalytic combustion process isn't just about heat output, did you watch my YouTube video? I walk people through the entire process of how to go about building a solar hydrogen storage unit. The problem that a lot of us were having is not having the balls to store the gas out of our split cells because we suspected it wasn't pure enough and we were all too poor to afford gas sniffers or having the gas analyzed by a lab. None of us really knew how to purify the gas. We needed to make absolutely sure we were storing very pure Hydrogen. I stumbled upon this heat effect testing the off the shelf catalytic converter as a re-combiner for my home brewed split cell and at first that was my only intention was to use it to purify the Hydrogen which has turned out to produce the highest purity levels of most other purification process's 99.99 to be exact. So I gave the information away on what to use to purify the gas, which was something a lot of us in the community struggled with for a long time. I also become heavily involved in the study of fuel cell technologies and realized we could be using the precious metals out of these to build large scale fuel cells as well. I gave that information in the video too.
The heat effect was just another jewel of all of this and the fact remains, information on the process using hho is next to non existent. What little bit I could find was claiming it produced an overunity effect in terms of heat output. Couldn't find any videos to prove or disprove that. At the same time I made a connection to the LENR research because their reactors contain porous Nickel, Platinum, or Palladium cores in which Hydrogen or isotopes of Hydrogen is sent in usually under a vacuum and interacts with the catalyst metal to create excess heat. Now I know there is more to it than that but basically its the same process.
I decided to share the information with everyone without holding on to the information in hopes of future profits. I thought it was the right thing to do. I'm asking others to participate because its simple and easy. Again, not just about the heat. You would be surprised how many people have been dying to know how to purify the gas, now they know...
You made a comment over at energetics that you were willing to drive to NC to help run the test. Well buddy, the invitation is out in the open. I'd be more than happy to entertain you. I know the tests are simple but you seem to be really interested in trying to get me to do them. Come on by brother and help me rig it all up. We can even do a video together. My home is open to you...
Justin
I would love to ,I'll ring you in a bit.
thx
Chet
Quote from: ramset on January 29, 2014, 07:53:10 AM
Justin
I would love to ,I'll ring you in a bit.
thx
Chet
Cool, I'll be here chillin...literally, stupid snow
I got my HHO setup working, and wanted to know what to aim for...
This page explains the math on HHO generator efficiency really well:
http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?1940-100-Faraday-Efficiency-9.282-MMW!
"107.73 Watts will generate 1 LPM at 100 percent efficiency"
So - if 1LPM of gas in a cat makes more heat than 107.73 watts of resistive heating - then that would be 'OU'...
Quote from: tim123 on January 29, 2014, 09:21:53 AM
I got my HHO setup working, and wanted to know what to aim for...
This page explains the math on HHO generator efficiency really well:
http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?1940-100-Faraday-Efficiency-9.282-MMW!
"107.73 Watts will generate 1 LPM at 100 percent efficiency"
So - if 1LPM of gas in a cat makes more heat than 107.73 watts of resistive heating - then that would be 'OU'...
You will never see 100 percent efficiency with your hho cell. You will be looking at more like 150-200 watts for 1 LPM. The best way to go about testing is to use raw power instead of gas output. 200 watts into the hho cell and then the gas into the cat vs. 200 watt resistive heater or 2 100 watt light bulbs.
Quote from: jdc.products@gmail.com on January 29, 2014, 09:37:27 AM
You will never see 100 percent efficiency with your hho cell. You will be looking at more like 150-200 watts for 1 LPM.
Hi JDC,
yes indeed. My setup uses about 100w for 0.5 Lpm at low voltage. It's probably better at full voltage because it approaches 1.2v per gap, but I've not tested it fully yet.
QuoteThe best way to go about testing is to use raw power instead of gas output. 200 watts into the hho cell and then the gas into the cat vs. 200 watt resistive heater or 2 100 watt light bulbs.
Not sure I agree... It depends what your testing. Is it:
a) Whether the cat itself, on it's own, is OU, or
b) Whether the HHO gen & cat in combination is OU.
I think the test we need to do is (a). That's the test that will show OU in the cat, or not. We already know the HHO gen is not OU...
So, I would say: Ignore the input power to your cell, and use only the flow-rate for the input power. Although, having said that - if you test (b) and it is OU - then you know it's *well* OU...
BTW - I've just ordered a brand new cat off ebay for a mere £27. I'm aiming to try it too - and publish my results here. :)
Quote from: tim123 on January 29, 2014, 10:51:17 AM
Hi JDC,
yes indeed. My setup uses about 100w for 0.5 Lpm at low voltage. It's probably better at full voltage because it approaches 1.2v per gap, but I've not tested it fully yet.
Not sure I agree... It depends what your testing. Is it:
a) Whether the cat itself, on it's own, is OU, or
b) Whether the HHO gen & cat in combination is OU.
I think the test we need to do is (a). That's the test that will show OU in the cat, or not. We already know the HHO gen is not OU...
So, I would say: Ignore the input power to your cell, and use only the flow-rate for the input power. Although, having said that - if you test (b) and it is OU - then you know it's *well* OU...
BTW - I've just ordered a brand new cat off ebay for a mere £27. I'm aiming to try it too - and publish my results here. :)
Be careful when ordering Cats, sometimes cheaper is not better. I am certain the cheaper the Cat the less Platinum / Palladium group metals will be deposited on the ceramic substrates. These noble metals are of course where the magic happens.
Hi all
just a further test with the catalytic reaction occuring on the powder i got from the drilling inside my car CAT
http://youtu.be/10CR3bZOYeo
hope this helps
laurent
I also did a bit of resistive heater [NOT HHO] testing on a small Tin Manifold .
with 200 watts input
I could not get the outside temp of the small uninsulated manifold over 410 F in 67 F ambient .[played inside for a very quick test]
I would say that looks good for Justin ,Tomorrow I will do more testing
to try and establish some sort of control [and post some pics]
@Justin
If you could post some dimensoins for your CaT I would greatly appreciate it [and pipe size inlet /
outlet for a mockup over here.
@Woopy
fabulous news indeed!
thx
Chet
Quote from: jdc.products@gmail.com on January 29, 2014, 05:48:27 AM
This thread is about on demand hho used in a catalytic combustion process to yield heat for space heating. Got anything else you would like to add from the peanut gallery?
Yes. Why not use the electricity you used to produce the HHO to do the space heating instead? It will be more efficient..
Unless of course you happen to believe that combusting HHO near a catalytic converter yields an over-unity result. I don't believe that, but I'd be willing to be convinced if someone would offer some real data proving it to be so.
Measure it for f### sake.
Quote from: ramset on January 29, 2014, 06:09:32 PM
I also did a bit of resistive heater [NOT HHO] testing on a small Tin Manifold .
with 200 watts input
I could not get the outside temp of the small uninsulated manifold over 410 F in 67 F ambient .[played inside for a very quick test]
I would say that looks good for Justin ,Tomorrow I will do more testing
to try and establish some sort of control [and post some pics]
@Justin
If you could post some dimensoins for your CaT I would greatly appreciate it [and pipe size inlet /
outlet for a mockup over here.
@Woopy
fabulous news indeed!
thx
Chet
Dimensions of Catalytic Converter 9"(23cm) Length, 4" (10cm) Thick 6" (15cm) Wide. Each opening of the cat is 2" (5cm) in diameter. Thickness of the heavy duty stainless steel housing is 1/8" (3.2mm) Thick. Weight of unit is about 5lbs (2.3Kg)
Needless to say not a thin piece of tin steel. With 200 watts I am seeing internal temps on parts of the ceramic substrate over 1000F. External temps 3-500F. Again very soon I will be sealing the entire system and will be pumping in gas on both sides to activate both ceramic substrates.
Quote from: LibreEnergia on January 29, 2014, 07:54:23 PM
Yes. Why not use the electricity you used to produce the HHO to do the space heating instead? It will be more efficient..
Unless of course you happen to believe that combusting HHO near a catalytic converter yields an over-unity result. I don't believe that, but I'd be willing to be convinced if someone would offer some real data proving it to be so.
Measure it for f### sake.
LOL yes I do believe Catalytic Combustion of HHO is more efficient than resistive heating of the same wattage. I am working on "measuring" it. Its easy enough, why don't you "measure" it lol.
I am working on sealing up the converter and insulating with high temp ceramic pads which will also diffuse the gas over the entire substrates. Then pumping in gas over both substrates to maximize heat output. Perfection takes time my man, help run the numbers yourself if you so anxious for them. I'm working on it.
A New story from Chava on Langmur
http://chavascience.com/papers/langmur-excess-energy-from-hydrogen (http://chavascience.com/papers/langmur-excess-energy-from-hydrogen)
Started a new place to Discuss Langmur and his work
here
http://www.overunity.com/14245/103-calgram-molecule-to-dissociate-hydrogen-yeilds-90-000-calgram-recombined/msg385589/#new (http://www.overunity.com/14245/103-calgram-molecule-to-dissociate-hydrogen-yeilds-90-000-calgram-recombined/msg385589/#new)
thx
Chet
PS
@Justin
When that gas recombines it will pull the worlds strongest vacuum
I made mention of this Vacuum before ,you need to realise this is "work" too
and needs to be "put to work" in this test for a proper analysis of power in and power out.
Lifting water etc etc.........
also try to design an intake where it Draws HOT air back in Not Cold ambient air.
{Apologies if this is obvious]
PPS
I suppose we could calculate the "Vacuum" energy if you keep a log on the weight
of the water being recombined [save /measure the water after recombination it will be applied to "Total" output ]
Woopy is finding some inteesting reactions with his new toys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10CR3bZOYeo&list=UUi3fFZN1pwHTyM8H_nSxerg&feature=c4-overview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10CR3bZOYeo&list=UUi3fFZN1pwHTyM8H_nSxerg&feature=c4-overview)
thx
Chet
Low Energy Neutron Reactions (LENRs) in Automotive Catalytic Converters
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/WL/slides/20100625LatticeEnergySlides.pdf
Justin
Thanks for that info
Here is more testing from the wonderfully resourceful Woopy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T20cuX1py8&feature=youtu.be
thx
Chet
Our Friend Lamare has some comments too
from here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/16500-hho-gas-injected-into-catalytic-converter-yields-extreme-heat-lenr-we-dont-know-4.html#post250190 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/16500-hho-gas-injected-into-catalytic-converter-yields-extreme-heat-lenr-we-dont-know-4.html#post250190)
This copy paste bellow is a mess, however the information Lamare has put together is wonderful... so I will leave it here. [original post #116 in above link]
""consider the possibility that there might be another form of water which is a mixture of H2 and O2 gas. As a matter of fact, the research of Prof. Gerald Pollack makes more than clear that another state of "water" indeed exists:Tuks Unsorted KieknWatTWordt Stuff - Meyer WFC Replication Project (http://www.tuks.nl/wiki/index.php/Main/MeyerWFCReplicationProject#BrownsGas) Batteries Made from Water - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS4PkR_BkRo) The work of Prof. Pollack and Chris Eckman suggest that a shape of water exists, consisting of the same honey-comb like structures which exist in ice, with the difference that the H+ ions which bind the these layers in ice are absent and move to "the bulk water" which becomes acid. In other words: there is reason to believe a crystalized form of (almost) water exists which appears to be cabable of existing not only in Pollacks' "EZ" layer, but also in a gaseous form, which is a/o known as "Brown's gas" or "HHO", but has other names as well. Frequently Asked Questions - Brown's Gas | www.eagle-research.com (http://www.eagle-research.com/cms/faq/browns-gas)[/size]
Quote:
Research indicates that Brown's Gas has characteristics that cannot be achieved by simply mixing bottled hydrogen and oxygen in a stoichiometric ratio.
BG contains H, H2, O, O2, H2O (as water vapor) and a special 6th 'structured' gas that Yull Brown called a 'Fluid Crystal', George Wiseman calls 'Electrically Expanded Water' (ExW) and professor Ruggero Santilli calls 'Magnecules'.
BG is also known under brand names of: Common-Ducted Gas, Rhode's Gas, Spirig Gas, Hydroxy, Brown Gas, Green Gas, Klein Gas, Aquygen, HHO, SG Gas, Ohmasa Gas, Knallgas, HNG and (erroneously by WikiPedia) OxyHydrogen. |
Chris Eckman has done some research on Brown's gas:Plasma orbital expansion theory for Brown's gas (http://pesn.com/2009/11/23/9501587_ChrisEckman_BrownsGas_model/)Another researcher is Graneau, who investigated "water arc" explosions:Directory contents of /pdf/Reference_Material/Electrolysis_Water_Arc_and_Dielectric_Breakdown/ (http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Material/Electrolysis_Water_Arc_and_Dielectric_Breakdown/)http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Material/Electrolysis_Water_Arc_and_Dielectric_Breakdown/Graneau%20e.a.%20-%20Arc-liberated%20chemical%20energy%20exceeds%20electric al%20input%20energy%20-%202000.pdf (http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Material/Electrolysis_Water_Arc_and_Dielectric_Breakdown/Graneau%20e.a.%20-%20Arc-liberated%20chemical%20energy%20exceeds%20electrical%20input%20energy%20-%202000.pdf)So, IMHO it's too short around the corner to call all things related to the term "HHO" a fallacy and conclude that it must be simply a mixture of H2 / O2 gas. I personally witnessed what happens when you ignite soap-bubbles filled with HHO gas. These implode instead of exploding, which makes it absolutely clear to me that it is NOT simply H2 / O2 gas. It may be something like a 'normal' water molecule in a different 'stretched' state, as Chris Eckmann suggested, it may[/size] be a gaseous form of Pollack's "EZ" layer, and it may yet be something else. I personally think it is likely that HHO is indeed a gaseous form of "ice cristals without the H+ atoms in between", because it appears the "HHO" are negatively charged, but one cannot conclude such things without proper investigations.As for the source of the energy, IMHO one needs to consider the work of Prof. Claus Turtur. I find it highly unlikely that all these kinds of "cold fusion" actually have anything to do with nuclear fusion, as I explained in this video:How Stan Meyer's "Car on Water" as well as "Cold Fusion" actually works. - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZf0yhe4B80)Oh, and for the record: I hold a master's degree in Electrical Engineering. -- Arend
good reading
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0161/7154/files/FOURTH_PHASE_SAMPLE.pdf
Awesome to see this thread still going. Some great information is being passed around. Thank you guys. I have some parts on order to clean up the cat design a bit and will be posting video of the parts when they come in. Keep researching and experimenting...
Woopy is exploring other interesting reactions too...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T-jRqym1Lw&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T-jRqym1Lw&feature=youtu.be)
enjoy
Chet
That's an excellent vid by Woopy. He's making good progress. :)
It's good to know that he too has had flashback probs... I had one that destroyed my flashback arrestor, and it put my experiments on hold...
It looks like Woopy's HHO torch is melting the cat...?!
Tim
Yes this gas was used to melt the most exotic metals** and has few limits regarding temperature.
Here we have Jetijs from energetic also having some fun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_uiRnHnbVM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_uiRnHnbVM)
his comments here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/16500-hho-gas-injected-into-catalytic-converter-yields-extreme-heat-lenr-we-dont-know-5.html#post250433 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/16500-hho-gas-injected-into-catalytic-converter-yields-extreme-heat-lenr-we-dont-know-5.html#post250433)
Thx
Chet
** these metals were used in Naudins MAHG to achieve very significant OU... however Lyne found iron would sufficewhich will be experimented with in the near future over here.
http://www.overunity.com/647/lyne-atomic-hydrogen-furnace/msg387090/#new (http://www.overunity.com/647/lyne-atomic-hydrogen-furnace/msg387090/#new)
Quote from: ramset on February 08, 2014, 08:07:13 PM
Woopy is exploring other interesting reactions too...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T-jRqym1Lw&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T-jRqym1Lw&feature=youtu.be)
enjoy
Chet
Hey Justin You got some test numbers yet ?.......LOL
Sorry I could not resist..