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Renaissance Charge r-charge.com is having Free Energy meetings and Workshops near Hamburg Germany (Jan 23-24) and Chicago USA (Mar 6-7). For the first time Michael Stroh of Strohmedia will partner up with Renaissance and explain the physics of what is happening in the free energy motor generators we will be running and building. And when you know what is going on it will help you to make it work for you. After ten years in this research we really haven't found anyone in the USA who has been able to give this kind of insight. Michael will also demonstrate some advanced applications of these motors that will simply amaze anyone.
We will show the battery chargers that allow you to restore your useless batteries and keep your good ones. We will show the new DualPole Motor Energizers, including the 10 coiler. The new mosfet driven and hall triggered mini DualPole kit will be demonstrated with a large fan and generator coils as the mechanical load, while powering bright lights and charging batteries. The large 12" Industrial magnet motor, similar to the one that drove our large boat for free, will be displayed as well. Come and witness a demonstration of free light and free heat while charging batteries.
We invite you to come to these meetings:
To learn about cutting edge technology that actually is changing the world.
To meet other like-minded people and make personal and business connections.
To participate in workshops where we build these systems together the right way.
To have lots of fun and to be amazed!!

The Hamburg meetings are being held at the Sunderhof where the lodging is very affordable. There are lots of rooms available. We held meetings there a few months ago and we found it to be a great place.
http://www.r-charge.net/Conventions_c_27.html

Looking forward to seeing some of you for the first time.
Rick Friedrich
Renaissance Charge, LLC.

Greetings Friends,
After almost 4 years of silence we have decided to once again have another American Convention. You asked for it. And you asked that it be more central. So we are bringing it to you in Chicago.
We would like to invite you to attend the upcoming March 7-8, 2015 Chicago Free Energy Convention Workshop near the O'Hare airport. http://goo.gl/xGLc4K

THIS MEETING WILL GO WAY BEYOND THE PREVIOUS AMERICAN CONVENTIONS WE HAVE HAD. THIS IS NOT A STORY-TELLING EVENT BUT A LIVE DEMONSTRATION OF OVERUNITY SYSTEMS, SOME OF WHICH HAVE NEVER BEEN SHOWN BEFORE. THIS TIME YOUR THEORETICAL QUESTIONS ABOUT THE QUANTUM VACUUM WILL ALSO BE ANSWERED. TIME WILL BE GIVEN TO ANSWER YOUR PRACTICAL APPLICATION QUESTIONS. DON'T MISS THIS HISTORIC MEETING.

This will be a special meeting as our new associate Michael Stroh presents spectacular and advanced applications of the motor energizers and related technologies. Watch as he shows you how these motors can actually do much more than you thought they could. Michael will demonstrate and speak about the physics of this technology and will answers questions during the meetings.

Cost is $200 for 2 full days of action packed demonstration and interaction. This includes a $60 kit otherwise cost is $150 without it.

SCHEDULE:
Saturday March 7.
9-10AM Enter Convention room one at a time to register and receive kit and be seated.
10AM Introductions and meeting outline.
10:15AM Battery charging facts pertaining to battery longevity, rejuvenation and overunity applications.
11:30 Renaissance Battery Charging Products and Demonstrations
12:30- 1:30 Lunch break
1:30PM Renaissance Battery Charging Products and Demonstrations continued, Upcoming Products with Q&A
2:30-2:245PM Overview of the Motors.
2:45-3:30PM Michael Stroh Lecture:
1. Motor presentation.
Why is the Radiant Energy Motor like Tesla, Adams, Gray and others?
What is the difference?
2. What is Overunity?
3. The Radiant Energy Motor, the End or only the Beginning?
3:30 Break
3:45-6PM Demonstration of small and large Dualpole motors, mini and Industrial Magnet motor, Light show application.

Sunday March 8.
9AM-12:30 Fan Motor kit assembly along with Q&A
12:30 Lunch
1:30PM Michael Stroh continues to present:
4. Optimized Magic Box application of DualPole kit.
Light
H2O ...
3PM Continued demonstrations of the Motor systems.
3:30PM Break
3:45-5PM Michael Stroh continues:
5. Showing Ether Vortex and Plasma application.
6. Live Tesla Coil presentation.
5-6PM Demonstration of radiant energy heating system and summing up the meeting.

PURPOSE OF THESE CONVENTIONS:
To learn about cutting edge Tesla and related technology that is changing the world.
To meet other like-minded people and make personal and business connections.
To participate in workshops where we build these systems together the right way.
To have lots of fun and to be amazed!

Discounted hotel rooms will be available for booking as early as Feb 2 at the Hampton Inn at O'Hare airport location. Mention you are with the Renaissance Charge group at the Conference Center.

We look forward to seeing you there.
Rick Friedrich
Renaissance Charge, LLC.
R-Charge.com
208-304-2954

http://youtu.be/5AqwT3BfVYU

Are you saying that you have working free energy machines?  Are you saying that you will demonstrate working free energy machines at these events?

Do you have any devices which work without batteries ?  ;)

Of course. What would it be without that? We will also demonstrate the battery chargers that give you free batteries, that is restoring them from useless condition (which is another freebie so to speak).

Rick

Quote from: MarkE on February 06, 2015, 02:04:41 AM
Are you saying that you have working free energy machines?  Are you saying that you will demonstrate working free energy machines at these events?

We do not  have to use batteries. There are a lot of different things we can do with these machines. The most amazing thing that we will show at the meeting will an output that is not batteries. Look at the video just posted and see if you can see the zero point energy. Few people have ever seen something like that.

Quote from: vasik041 on February 06, 2015, 05:00:26 AM
Do you have any devices which work without batteries ?  ;)

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 06, 2015, 08:04:45 AM
We do not  have to use batteries. There are a lot of different things we can do with these machines. The most amazing thing that we will show at the meeting will an output that is not batteries. Look at the video just posted and see if you can see the zero point energy. Few people have ever seen something like that.

I watched the video, looks like advertising... not very impresing... sorry  :)

Anyway I wish you good luck developing this stuff into something useful.

Will the demos be like Steven Spisak's, Rossi's or actually 100% real, so hidden power sources are ruled out?
Will any devices run self looped for the show duration?

Not impressing?? Who are you?? Sorry I can't please you. lol Advertising? ok. Yeah we are just pushing product here. Really? Wow. We are setting up educational meetings that are very practical. I guess we should be paying you to come then. lol

The motors will be clearly explained and shown so that you can do them yourself. This has always been my point. And we have never tried to prove anything with any demonstration or video. You show yourself the results. We attempt to help you get good results (provided you make proper solder connections and use the right parts, etc.). But the motors are only the bare bones free energy motor system. What you can do with the motors is many more things than you realize (but if people pay attention to the details then...)...
The only thing we will not reveal is the zero point energy demonstration of the magic box. One of my 4 pole motors running at like 100ma 12V which charges batteries is connected on the output to a box and then it outputs to the same battery being charged as normal. But then Michael shows several other outputs producing negative energy, positive energy, and zero point energy at the same time. And he adds more and more bulbs. The more he adds the more the neon bulbs on the 4 pole motor light up, which is usually an indication of not enough of a load on the output of the system. So you can see in the video some of that and the bulb in the water, etc. This is a truly amazing demonstration from beginning to end. I have seen nothing like this before... The purpose of this demonstration more than dazzling is for him to explain how the quantum vacuum energy works in different ways. The benefit of this meeting goes way beyond the physical demonstration of these remarkable displays but in the explanation of everything. In meetings in the past there was no one who could help us understand how this all works so it seems everyone here is just guessing and sometimes stumbling upon interesting results without knowing really how they get there. With Michael and associates we begin to understand how it all works. He really takes us there into the quantum world and shows us how much he knows. The door is now open and the sky is the limit...

Quote from: memoryman on February 06, 2015, 09:38:17 AM
Will the demos be like Steven Spisak's, Rossi's or actually 100% real, so hidden power sources are ruled out?
Will any devices run self looped for the show duration?

I looked through some of your new stuff Rick.  It looks like you have hooked up with some guy in Germany that does similar stuff to you and you are running a conference circuit together.  With your falling out with JB, I am surprised that you are selling Renaissance chargers, I thought that was all under him.  I would assume that he lets you resell but otherwise you keep his name out of the other stuff.

From your "other stuff," from what I can see it's just another flavour of pulse motor design you are pushing with the back-spike collection, bla, bla, bla, and of course Tesla.

So it looks like to me you are basically doing the same thing as before, but with different branding.  And that leads to.... nothing.  You are just doing the old pulse motor dog and pony show.  Dropping names, making vague references to zero point energy, bla, bla, bla.

You certainly will not be demoing any over unity devices.  None of them will stand up to real scrutiny.  It's all just the same-old-same-old.

MileHigh

Quotehe only thing we will not reveal is the zero point energy demonstration of the magic box. One of my 4 pole motors running at like 100ma 12V which charges batteries is connected on the output to a box and then it outputs to the same battery being charged as normal. But then Michael shows several other outputs producing negative energy, positive energy, and zero point energy at the same time. And he adds more and more bulbs. The more he adds the more the neon bulbs on the 4 pole motor light up, which is usually an indication of not enough of a load on the output of the system. So you can see in the video some of that and the bulb in the water, etc. This is a truly amazing demonstration from beginning to end. I have seen nothing like this before... The purpose of this demonstration more than dazzling is for him to explain how the quantum vacuum energy works in different ways. The benefit of this meeting goes way beyond the physical demonstration of these remarkable displays but in the explanation of everything. In meetings in the past there was no one who could help us understand how this all works so it seems everyone here is just guessing and sometimes stumbling upon interesting results without knowing really how they get there. With Michael and associates we begin to understand how it all works. He really takes us there into the quantum world and shows us how much he knows. The door is now open and the sky is the limit...

You are not demoing a single damn thing out of the ordinary.

No that is not correct. bla bla bla MileHigh So what is this site a place of trolls?

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 06, 2015, 10:49:33 AM
No that is not correct. bla bla bla MileHigh So what is this site a place of trolls?

I know the whole shtick Rick.  Anybody that knows their stuff reasonably well can see through the whole thing.

You know it all my friend. That is self-evident. That's why you're here to teach us the way...

Quote from: MileHigh on February 06, 2015, 10:52:15 AM
I know the whole shtick Rick.  Anybody that knows their stuff reasonably well can see through the whole thing.

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 06, 2015, 10:54:45 AM
You know it all my friend. That is self-evident. That's why you're here to teach us the way...

I don't know it all but I know enough.  You don't even teach people how their pulse motors really work when people pay $200 for a seat.  It least it was like that at all of the Bedini conferences.  What a joke.

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 06, 2015, 10:49:33 AM
No that is not correct. bla bla bla MileHigh So what is this site a place of trolls?

Please remind me since when asking right questions became trolling ?  ;)

What questions? I see bad attitudes. I don't know what some people expect in cyberland. Yes there are trolls everywhere and/or people putting down anything they don't understand. We are having some fun meetings and sharing what we know. To say it looks not impressive and advertising is rude. To say it is all the same old thing is also rude. To make negative assumptions is rude. Sometimes rudeness is because someone is just rude as a person and other times it is the work of a troll set out to downplay things. Even if someone assumes it is older stuff, and no doubt some of our stuff is older, doesn't mean that it is not important and useful. This forum covers a lot of different things and should be welcome to such postings. But rudeness is not welcome.

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 06, 2015, 11:08:25 AM
What questions? I see bad attitudes. I don't know what some people expect in cyberland. Yes there are trolls everywhere and/or people putting down anything they don't understand. We are having some fun meetings and sharing what we know. To say it looks not impressive and advertising is rude. To say it is all the same old thing is also rude. To make negative assumptions is rude. Sometimes rudeness is because someone is just rude as a person and other times it is the work of a troll set out to downplay things. Even if someone assumes it is older stuff, and no doubt some of our stuff is older, doesn't mean that it is not important and useful. This forum covers a lot of different things and should be welcome to such postings. But rudeness is not welcome.

I am sorry, I didn't mean being rude... 

Rick, there is a lot of bad baggage related to the whole JB universe.  You are a spin-off from that universe.  Like the animation done in 2010 for your Idaho conference showing a 10-coiler configuration swapping back and forth between battery banks with the alleged excess energy being used to drive a big inverter to power a house.  That's complete nonsense, a lie.

You talk about "learning amazing stuff."  Someone that is determined could spend a few days watching the right YouTube clips, and they would learn way more about pulse motors as compared to going to one of your conferences.

You are here to sell, and if you are on Amazon there are unrestricted comments by people on all the products they have for sale.  You want to buy a few 4 TB external hard drives and there are 20 models available?  You read the comments to get feedback from real people, and there is always a mix of experience and knowledge to be found there.

So I am just giving you my short evaluation of the types of conferences that you are selling, just like the comments on Amazon or even IMDB.

Anybody that wants to experiment with a pulse motor is fine by me and I encourage them to.  I would also encourage them to build their own.  Ultimately a pulse motor is pretty useless after you have played with it.  There are no "amazing things" about it.  And that's where some feedback from people like me is useful for the whole community.  There are too many superlatives in your sales pitch for your conference, and the truth is that you are "selling" ordinary vanilla electronic circuits and portraying them as something they are not.

MileHigh

Well thank you. Your other comment was good so I was perplexed. But I was mostly referring to someone else.
I wouldn't be in this work if I wasn't helping people as they request. I want everyone to know this. I spent 3 years in this work volunteering my time and energy for this community without making any money to cover my time. I only started Renaissance because people demanded that we give them something. I created my own products as people asked for them and not because I was pushing some products on people. I turn more people away from buying things than I do encouraging people to buy them. In 8 years we have only offered what people ask for, including meetings. The meetings also give people a chance to connect with each other and this can be the most important aspect about them. Usually some very interesting people come and participate and end up revealing important things. But we also do a workshop and some people just want to come and have someone help them to assemble an interesting kit. That is all fine and we are there for them as well. We are doing what we can. We do not have everything for everyone. So if it is old to some genius guy then fine. Show us a better way. But the insults are old. We dealt long ago with such childishness on the forums. I think the world is much further along than that kind of talk now.

You want to do something really radical at your conference for the pulse motor build?  Challenge your builders to measure the power in and power out into the charging battery.  Let them all calculate the efficiency of their pulse motors.  Give them an hour to do that.  The assumption is that very few of them will be able to do it.  Then you teach them how to properly measure the power-out vs. power in.  Show them how to do the most basic, most obvious measurement metric for their pulse motors.

How come something as basic as that is never discussed at your conferences?  Don't you think people would want to know what the charging power and charging efficiency of their pulse motor is?

Quoteteach them how to properly measure the power-out vs. power in.

that is too radical  ;D

No, you speak from ignorance. That doesn't mean that I am not listening to you. I don't have anything to do with JB for a few years now. I got burned there and it is too complicated to get into. But you don't know what happened and you are not correct in your assumptions of me.
As for what Bits did with the 10 coiler in that meeting that was his own thing that he claimed and has to live with. I found out later the next day that very thing that the swapper was not what I had asked for and that the batteries were half drained. The 10 coiler was not running in the sweetspot and was only drawing 2A total which was not what it was made to run. These associations did cost me a lot of time and money. So I acknowledge this problems in the past. But a few bad experiences does not mean the rest of everything is that way. And yes, a pulse motor by itself is nothing of an improvement over constant current. But our circuits are not merely that. And in fact I did drive my 26" boat on just two battery banks that I swapped around for two years using our motor and circuits. I compared it to a regular forklift motor. I spent a lot of time in all that to really see the comparison. I gave rides at the second convention and showed it all. At the first one that same motor ran on 10A 36V my rider lawnmower which I drove in on. That was no joke either. I have used these systems for years. Yes Michael and I have agreed that these are older systems of Robert Adams and even others before him, but we are showing now that they are not merely what you all assume they are. There is a lot more that you can do with them than charge big battery banks and get more out than you put in through the batteries... Someone like you is close minded because of problems you see with some personalities that have come and gone. Maybe that is legitimate as you have been burned or something. I don't know. I don't sell products on Amazon and so I don't know what you are talking about. As for what people can learn on Youtube I'm all for it. We have done that also. No one is telling you you have to go to the meetings. But you are not welcome to bark at me for making them available to those who have asked for them. There are things at the meetings that are not shown on Youtube so you are mistaken. And there are several purposes to the meetings you have not realized. Your comments are therefore obviously intended to divert people rather than be helpful.

Quote from: MileHigh on February 06, 2015, 11:21:39 AM
Rick, there is a lot of bad baggage related to the whole JB universe.  You are a spin-off from that universe.  Like the animation done in 2010 for your Idaho conference showing a 10-coiler configuration swapping back and forth between battery banks with the alleged excess energy being used to drive a big inverter to power a house.  That's complete nonsense, a lie.

You talk about "learning amazing stuff."  Someone that is determined could spend a few days watching the right YouTube clips, and they would learn way more about pulse motors as compared to going to one of your conferences.

You are here to sell, and if you on Amazon there are unrestricted comments by people on all the products they have for sale.  You want to buy a few 4 TB external hard drives and there are 20 models available?  You read the comments to get feedback from real people, and there is always a mix of experience and knowledge to be found there.

So I am just giving you my short evaluation of the types of conferences that you are selling, just like the comments on Amazon or even IMDB.

Anybody that wants to experiment with a pulse motor is fine and I encourage them to.  I would also encourage them to build their own.  Ultimately a pulse motor is pretty useless after you have played with it.  There are no "amazing things" about it.  And that's where some feedback from people like me is useful for the whole community.  There are too many superlatives in your sales pitch for your conference, and the truth is that you are "selling" ordinary vanilla electronic circuits and portraying them as something they are not.

MileHigh

This is all fine and acceptable. And that is also old my friend. We do many things like this. But we are into showing more than batteries now. We charge several battery banks but also run lights and power other loads and create heat, etc.
However, we are not so much into trying to prove something to people in five minutes or one hour, but rather in trying to help people understand how these things work so that they can do it themselves. I have been helping people for years. Two of my customers have built their own versions of these motors and have put them in boats and gone around the world with them. All based upon the information we have given them. You want a certain kind of thing in a certain kind of way, and that is fair for you and your tastes. But don't put everyone in the same shoes and assume you know what everyone wants. Go you own way my friend and live your own life. We will run our meetings the way we decide, and again based on what people have asked for not what some skeptics demand. You cannot help some people even if you show them what they ask as they will just turn around and say it is a trick or give some explanation as to why it did what they asked you to make it do. lol So we could have meetings that we just wow everyone, and yes that is a small part of the meeting, but people are mostly beyond that and want to know the practical matters and that is what I try and do. And now Michael helps with moving it much further and helps with the how and whys. But you have not even started at first base so the hows and whys are not important when you do not believe in any of this.

Quote from: MileHigh on February 06, 2015, 11:41:14 AM
You want to do something really radical at your conference for the pulse motor build?  Challenge your builders to measure the power in and power out into the charging battery.  Let them all calculate the efficiency of their pulse motors.  Give them an hour to do that.  The assumption is that very few of them will be able to do it.  Then you teach them how to properly measure the power-out vs. power in.  Show them how to do the most basic, most obvious measurement metric for their pulse motors.

How come something as basic as that is never discussed at your conferences?  Don't you think people would want to know what the charging power and charging efficiency of their pulse motor is?

Rick, I can state this with a very high degree of confidence:  Any circuit or system or alleged "special technology" that you would present at your conference could be analysed here and shown to be nothing remarkable.

That's what learning about electronics is all about.  Understanding the behaviour of circuits.   You guys avoid those things and instead play a smoke and mirrors game.  I am assuming there are times when you are not even aware of that yourself.

As far as your pulse-motor boat, and pulse-motor lawn mower goes, big deal.  That borders on the edge of motor quackery.  A real electric-powered boat or lawn mower would outperform your pulse motor versions.  The pulse motors you use have almost no torque, and heaven forbid you actually try to measure RPM vs. torque vs, input power, etc, like is done for any other electric motor.  If you actually generated proper motor performance curves like you should, how crappy a pulse motor is for powering a vehicle is would be quickly revealed.  The boat and the lawn mower are just props.

MileHigh

That is a very important subject but it is not so easy to do. If we are dealing with conventional systems then it is very easy. But we are not dealing with the same thing. Some of what we show reveals how we are dealing with something entirely different. If you have my mini motor running on only 1W as shown in this latest video, and yet it is charging a battery at least a little, but all the neon lights are fully glowing and 10 or 20 or 100 bulbs are also running at full or half or partial brightness (whichever we want) but some of those bulbs have zero voltage and zero amperage then it takes a little time for us to explain in and out would you think? Yes too radical my friends. Maybe even your jaw would drop as we had some in Germany do.
You see the thing is, depending on which type of energy we are producing the meters will show different things. Some outputs will be affected by meters  put on during the charging. So running loads off the batteries and calculating that way is a method to accomplish the same thing. But it takes time to charge and discharge batteries and yes many people do in fact trick people by pushing up voltages in pulse motors etc. So that is why I take the time to explain all that so people can be corrected an learn the right way to evaluate things. So if you want your show with sensational results we have that now as well. But we offer more than this.

Quote from: vasik041 on February 06, 2015, 11:46:09 AM
that is too radical  ;D

QuoteThis is all fine and acceptable. And that is also old my friend. We do many things like this. But we are into showing more than batteries now. We charge several battery banks but also run lights and power other loads and create heat, etc.

In seven years of reading stuff related to you and JB, never once have I seen a reference to, or a discussion about, measuring power-out vs. power-in for a pulse motor.  And I am pretty sure that you wont do it at your conferences.

The math is pretty simple.  A typical pulse motor might be 30% efficient in taking the input power and turning it into inductive spike charging power.  That sucks.  That means you can go to a big-box store and by a commercial smart pulsing battery charger, plug it in the wall, and you are done.  That solution will beat the pants off of any pulse motor.

So there you go mister MileHigh. Why are you even here on overunity.com if you are concluded that it is all quackery? I guess when I drove my boat for two years around CDA lake rotating the batteries around it was a delusion. Whatever man. You're in your own little black box and will limit yourself to conventional thinking. There is no flight possible when people are flying over your head. You are the one who is smoke and mirrors game. Welcome to Overunity.com where people attack you for recommending it.

Quote from: MileHigh on February 06, 2015, 12:10:04 PM
Rick, I can state this with a very high degree of confidence:  Any circuit or system or alleged "special technology" that you would present at your conference could be analysed here and shown to be nothing remarkable.

That's what learning about electronics is all about.  Understanding the behaviour of circuits.   You guys avoid those things and instead play a smoke and mirrors game.  I am assuming there are times when you are not even aware of that yourself.

As far as your pulse-motor boat, and pulse-motor lawn mower goes, big deal.  That borders on the edge of motor quackery.  A real electric-powered boat or lawn mower would outperform your pulse motor versions.  The pulse motors you use have almost no torque, and heaven forbid you actually try to measure RPM vs. torque vs, input power, etc, like is done for any other electric motor.  If you actually generated proper motor performance curves like you should, how crappy a pulse motor is for powering a vehicle is would be quickly revealed.  The boat and the lawn mower are just props.

MileHigh

Oh and btw everyone, this is just a fake dialogue between us as we are really friends. I pay MileHigh a lot of money to pretend to contradict me so I can drive a lot more traffic to the meetings by answering the questions. lol

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 06, 2015, 12:22:44 PM
So there you go mister MileHigh. Why are you even here on overunity.com if you are concluded that it is all quackery? I guess when I drove my boat for two years around CDA lake rotating the batteries around it was a delusion. Whatever man. You're in your own little black box and will limit yourself to conventional thinking. There is no flight possible when people are flying over your head. You are the one who is smoke and mirrors game. Welcome to Overunity.com where people attack you for recommending it.

Rick:

QuoteThat is a very important subject but it is not so easy to do. If we are dealing with conventional systems then it is very easy. But we are not dealing with the same thing. Some of what we show reveals how we are dealing with something entirely different. If you have my mini motor running on only 1W as shown in this latest video, and yet it is charging a battery at least a little, but all the neon lights are fully glowing and 10 or 20 or 100 bulbs are also running at full or half or partial brightness (whichever we want) but some of those bulbs have zero voltage and zero amperage then it takes a little time for us to explain in and out would you think? Yes too radical my friends. Maybe even your jaw would drop as we had some in Germany do.

The above is your sales pitch.  It's also mostly fantasy talk.  You are dealing with conventional systems, for sure.  BFD you can light neons, it's means nothing.   "Zero voltage and zero amperage" is complete BS.

The jaw dropping from my perspective is that you can get away most of the time, but not all of the time, with making statements like the one above.

And I seriously doubt that you would be able to measure the charging power output of your pulse motor.  Saying, "this is stuff that meters can't understand" is a totally nonsensical and lame excuse.

Now somebody considering going to your conferences has been exposed to a different point of view.  So much the better.

MileHigh

Rick,

You may have driven your boat around.  But notice that you gave zero information beyond that.  You are so used to not having your followers ask pertinent questions.  One hour per month or 200 hours per month?

Certainly, if you drove your boat around enough, you had to recharge the batteries.  Just like anybody that experiments with pulse motors, eventually they have to plug a battery into a regular battery charger so they can keep experimenting on the bench.

MileHigh

"No that is not correct. bla bla bla MileHigh So what is this site a place of trolls?"
No, it is a place where people think critically, as opposed to believing the 'teachers' who cannot demonstrate what they teach.
There is nothing wrong with promoting anything as long as claims can be or have been verified (this magic potion cures all forms of cancer) and there is full disclosure.
MH, TK, I and many others on this forum are quite capable of reproducing and improving just about any electrical/electronic design.
If you are promoting a 'free energy' device/design but cannot demonstrate it yourself (just like Bedini, Lindemann et all), and claim that it works, imho there is something 'fishy'.
Btw, I have a long standing offer out that any inventor that can demonstrate to my satisfaction OU or even a very useful device, I will use my extensive connections to get that device to market, free of charge.

If you know what I meant by the neon bulb comment you would have not said this. You are ignorant of these systems. I wasn't talking about it being a matter of power output in the neon bulbs that indeed require nothing to light up. But merely that when the neon bulbs are lighting up it is an indication of there being NO LOAD on the output. You are so blinded in your attacks that you can't even follow anything I say. And you are obviously blind and can't see that the volt meter reads ZERO voltage. Well to be fair I didn't give you much details about it. But you can see the bulb in the water with zero voltage on it. At the meetings people put their meters anywhere they wanted. Skeptics were amazed and baffled. But you are one of those skeptics that must be 120 years old and still does not believe we can fly. Sorry that is the only way I get to Europe by flying. lol There are not airplanes in this world, they are all illusions and quackery. Flying is impossible, I'll show you the math and conventional theory to prove it with almost certainty. lol!!
So if zero voltage and zero amperage is complete BS then what is your whole point?? I don't get it Mr. Troll. If you believe that it is possible then what is all the fuss? If it is not then you have everything to learn. But you are too closeminded to learn it seems.

Quote from: MileHigh on February 06, 2015, 12:28:30 PM
Rick:

The above is your sales pitch.  It's also mostly fantasy talk.  You are dealing with conventional systems, for sure.  BFD you can light neons, it's means nothing.   "Zero voltage and zero amperage" is complete BS.

The jaw dropping from my perspective is that you can get away most of the time, but not all of the time, with making statements like the one above.

And I seriously doubt that you would be able to measure the charging power output of your pulse motor.  Saying, "this is stuff that meters can't understand" is a totally nonsensical and lame excuse.

Now somebody considering going to your conferences has been exposed to a different point of view.  So much the better.

MileHigh

Quote from: MileHigh on February 06, 2015, 11:41:14 AM
You want to do something really radical at your conference for the pulse motor build?  Challenge your builders to measure the power in and power out into the charging battery.  Let them all calculate the efficiency of their pulse motors.  Give them an hour to do that.  The assumption is that very few of them will be able to do it.  Then you teach them how to properly measure the power-out vs. power in.  Show them how to do the most basic, most obvious measurement metric for their pulse motors.

How come something as basic as that is never discussed at your conferences?  Don't you think people would want to know what the charging power and charging efficiency of their pulse motor is?

Belief is all that's necessary for some people. Belief is all that underpins the claim.

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 06, 2015, 08:02:29 AM
Of course. What would it be without that? We will also demonstrate the battery chargers that give you free batteries, that is restoring them from useless condition (which is another freebie so to speak).

Rick

So just to be very clear:  Someone pays you money for entrance to the show, and you will show them a working free energy machine, right?

"Belief is all that's necessary for some people. Belief is all that underpins the claim."
So, to be clear, there is NO science there? You are selling a faith based product/service ? Sounds like the 'save the world' QEG clan.

Rick:

QuoteIf you know what I meant by the neon bulb comment you would have not said this. You are ignorant of these systems. I wasn't talking about it being a matter of power output in the neon bulbs that indeed require nothing to light up.

I can take a wild guess.  You have a charging battery connected to the output of the pulse motor.  That means the neons are not supposed to glow.  But you can show an "amazing" demo with a charging battery in place but the neons still glow.

Is that it?

Quote from: MileHigh on February 06, 2015, 01:12:35 PM
Rick:

I can take a wild guess.  You have a charging battery connected to the output of the pulse motor.  That means the neons are not supposed to glow.  But you can show an "amazing" demo with a charging battery in place but the neons still glow.

Is that it?

A modest amount of wiring inductance plus a fast turn-off edge makes a flyback.  Whoopee:  the neon bulb glows.

QuoteSkeptics were amazed and baffled.

I know that you state that all the time but I somehow doubt it.  There is nothing that I have ever seen you or JB present that was out of the ordinary.

Honestly, there are some people around here that if they went on a bench with you would amaze and baffle you just by doing normal, regular work on the bench.

You have been in this JB/pulse motor business for something like seven or eight years?  Without using any high-end equipment, I bet you that you don't even know how to measure the charging power output from one of your pulse motors.  Thank about that, seven or eight years in the game and my presumption is that you don't know how to measure the power output from one of your pulse motors.

Quote from: MarkE on February 06, 2015, 01:32:00 PM
A modest amount of wiring inductance plus a fast turn-off edge makes a flyback.  Whoopee:  the neon bulb glows.

Hey that's no fair!  lol

But MH, faith cannot be measured...

Look, I understand fishy claims and have spent just as much time as you guys exposing such people. I often say that 90% or more of the FE claims out there are bogus or just mistaken. I spend a great deal of time actually teach people how to properly evaluate batteries so that they are not mistaken. I'm not going to get into all the people I have exposed or refuse to work with because of shady business and fake stuff and mistaken claims. So I understand where you guys are coming from. And it is easy to be prejudiced against anyone that sounds similar or even against any FE claims at all. But this is overunity.com so I really won't tolerate the ultra criticisms and ignorance that is being displayed here. I am not referring to circuit expertise but ignorance otherwise. The prejudice is fairly obvious.
First off, I don't claim energy is being created but transferred. But to assume you have all knowledge of every type of energy is laughable. This is how some of you come across in your assumptions. Thus I joke with you and point to the history of science to show you how much you are limiting yourself.
So far it is not critical at all but mocking and close-mindedness. That is just as bad as magic potions cures mentality. That is NOT science but prejudice.
As for offers that's good for you. There are several people that do that but I have no idea what the satisfaction would be. If solar was not known and I can to you with batteries and a solar panel would that be enough or would it be considered impossible and thus dismissed? See my point? If it is not theoretically possible in people's minds then they assume it doesn't work no matter what they see. We are not interested in trying to get someone to believe things. We just are here to help those who wish to be helped. We are progressing a new science.
As for making things come to the market, it is not easy. There are lines that you can't cross either...

Quote from: memoryman on February 06, 2015, 12:43:26 PM
"No that is not correct. bla bla bla MileHigh So what is this site a place of trolls?"
No, it is a place where people think critically, as opposed to believing the 'teachers' who cannot demonstrate what they teach.
There is nothing wrong with promoting anything as long as claims can be or have been verified (this magic potion cures all forms of cancer) and there is full disclosure.
MH, TK, I and many others on this forum are quite capable of reproducing and improving just about any electrical/electronic design.
If you are promoting a 'free energy' device/design but cannot demonstrate it yourself (just like Bedini, Lindemann et all), and claim that it works, imho there is something 'fishy'.
Btw, I have a long standing offer out that any inventor that can demonstrate to my satisfaction OU or even a very useful device, I will use my extensive connections to get that device to market, free of charge.

Ah, finally an guy asking for clarity and not making assumptions.
Machine(s).

Quote from: MarkE on February 06, 2015, 01:02:10 PM
So just to be very clear:  Someone pays you money for entrance to the show, and you will show them a working free energy machine, right?

Haha you just want to laugh at me do you and make it all so easy to sweep under the carpet. I'm not really interested in talking to you about this because you just mock and show so much ignorance.
You didn't bother to even listen to the heart of the matter. I wrote that yes when the neon bulbs glow it usually means there is an insufficient load or none at all. Why twist that part out to make it like I said something about powering a neon was something significant. Why, because you are only interested in discrediting this which you do not understand. The output of these systems normally depends on the size, voltage and condition of the batteries being charged and the larger the battery bank the more charge takes place.
All that being said, now we add something to the output between the motor and the charging battery. Battery continues to be charged while input patter is only drawing 1W. Now additional outputs power 1 and 2 and 4 and 10 and 20 bulbs each requiring much more than 1 W to run.
Now pay attention mocker. I then said that while each bulb and load is added the neon bulbs on the motor start to light up and get brighter and brighter. I didn't say something about what it takes to power a neon bulb. lol If you knew the circuit you would understand what is happening here. The motor does not draw any more power and does not change rpm during this time.
There's your 1W challenge. What can you do with 1W? Power a motor 2500RPM while charging a battery and powering 100W leds?
No, you don't care about all that only with how much energy it takes to power the neon bulbs. lol You are a joke.

Quote from: MileHigh on February 06, 2015, 01:12:35 PM
Rick:

I can take a wild guess.  You have a charging battery connected to the output of the pulse motor.  That means the neons are not supposed to glow.  But you can show an "amazing" demo with a charging battery in place but the neons still glow.

Is that it?

Yeah and 48V of 2000AH batteries can charge at the same time. Or 100W bulbs run in water.

Quote from: MileHigh on February 06, 2015, 01:41:08 PM
Hey that's no fair!  lol

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 06, 2015, 02:13:13 PM
Look, I understand fishy claims and have spent just as much time as you guys exposing such people. I often say that 90% or more of the FE claims out there are bogus or just mistaken. I spend a great deal of time actually teach people how to properly evaluate batteries so that they are not mistaken. I'm not going to get into all the people I have exposed or refuse to work with because of shady business and fake stuff and mistaken claims. So I understand where you guys are coming from. And it is easy to be prejudiced against anyone that sounds similar or even against any FE claims at all. But this is overunity.com so I really won't tolerate the ultra criticisms and ignorance that is being displayed here. I am not referring to circuit expertise but ignorance otherwise. The prejudice is fairly obvious.
First off, I don't claim energy is being created but transferred. But to assume you have all knowledge of every type of energy is laughable. This is how some of you come across in your assumptions. Thus I joke with you and point to the history of science to show you how much you are limiting yourself.
So far it is not critical at all but mocking and close-mindedness. That is just as bad as magic potions cures mentality. That is NOT science but prejudice.
As for offers that's good for you. There are several people that do that but I have no idea what the satisfaction would be. If solar was not known and I can to you with batteries and a solar panel would that be enough or would it be considered impossible and thus dismissed? See my point? If it is not theoretically possible in people's minds then they assume it doesn't work no matter what they see. We are not interested in trying to get someone to believe things. We just are here to help those who wish to be helped. We are progressing a new science.
As for making things come to the market, it is not easy. There are lines that you can't cross either...

Of course we understand the energy transportation concept; every fridge/freezer/ac works on that principle. You have no idea how open- or close-minded I am. I just won't make claims that I cannot back up.
"There are lines that you can't cross either..." please, not the MiB/PTB line.
It IS easy IF you have a genuine OU device. One of my acquaintances is a billionaire with solar cell manufacturing plants worldwide.

I don't care what you believe. You are a rude person that doesn't care to even understand the person you are criticize. You demonstrate very poor observation skills in the few things you have said. You are also so full of pride that you are blind to your potential. I have worked with many engineers all over the US. And it is a sad fact that only a small percentage are open enough to work with this stuff. All others attempt to improve upon it while they evaluate it and then fail of course. So I have a lot of experience with this kind of mentality you are displaying. It's called blind prejudice. It is the opposite to science. Trying to belittle someone to defeat them is just Argumentum ad perplexus. Or if you are ignorant of that it is like the Prestige jargon fallacy. I have engineers that work for me that have worked with equipment you can only dream about and have been working with such for a very long time. So what? Where does that get us. Mine is bigger than yours? lol Grow up man. Get a life. Go back to solar or wind and pushing electrons. lol
But while we are talking about meters, who is the judge of the performance of a device? In the end I don't care what meter is used if I can drive my boat around all summer while you have the smelly boat and pay $4/gallon. It is not what goes into the battery but what comes out that matters my friend. And what happens when you batteries continue to charge after the machine is turned off? How would measuring the connection to your batteries give you any REAL numbers then?? Oh, didn't think about that factor!
So what does it matter if your meter reads zero volts and zero amps but the light is on and is in the water?
What does it matter if the home is heated and the lights are on. I just can't turn on the lights or fly in that plane because my meter says there is nothing there. Well go stick your head back in the sand and enjoy the sweat and toil and be a slave!

Quote from: MileHigh on February 06, 2015, 01:40:15 PM
I know that you state that all the time but I somehow doubt it.  There is nothing that I have ever seen you or JB present that was out of the ordinary.

Honestly, there are some people around here that if they went on a bench with you would amaze and baffle you just by doing normal, regular work on the bench.

You have been in this JB/pulse motor business for something like seven or eight years?  Without using any high-end equipment, I bet you that you don't even know how to measure the charging power output from one of your pulse motors.  Thank about that, seven or eight years in the game and my presumption is that you don't know how to measure the power output from one of your pulse motors.

QuoteSo what does it matter if your meter reads zero volts and zero amps but the light is on and is in the water?

How is anybody supposed to make a statement when you provide no details?  But I can certainly envision what you are stating being true and unremarkable.

So how about you just state clearly and unambiguously what you are talking about.  Show the circuit, flesh out all of the details, what meter or meters are you using, etc.?

Electronics is not done in text.  Please provide all the information.

That is called integrity to not make claims you can't back up. That is good.
If you shoot someone down as this other guy does then you are close minded.
I do not push a MiB game. It is a fact that any device that puts out too much power can easily be made into a weapon and is therefore a national security threat in any country. That is no joke. And no, it is almost impossible to know from all the stories that are spread around what are real visits and what are not. That is why I said this is not going to be a storytelling meeting. I never was into that. Just practical stuff. Who can verify if such and such person was shut down because of MiB? Yes it makes a great story and draws people to yourself.
We all know of such a story but I figured out maybe the real reason for such a visit was because he was working with radio active materials and was potentially putting people at a health risk. Do those kinds of visits happen? No doubt. IDK I wasn't there. But if you cause a potential health risk or interference then you can expect a visit from some alphabets. And if you create too much power in a small system then there is also another kind of problem...
Yeah my brother's uncle has a friend is knows a guy who has that kind of money. lol
It is not easy. The biggest obstacle is what is being displayed here today. People are not willing to open their minds until everyone is doing it. There is a major change that needs to take place in society before the newer technology can come forward. And there is too much profit to be made for companies to jump ahead too soon. First we the people have to be milked as much as possible. If one thinks otherwise then one is ignorant of how the world works. I always see this with the battery companies. They know batteries can be restored and kept usable much longer than they are but they are into selling product. What would happen to this world if a little box suddenly replaced all power sources? Do you think that would be allowed?

Quote from: memoryman on February 06, 2015, 02:35:39 PM
Of course we understand the energy transportation concept; every fridge/freezer/ac works on that principle. You have no idea how open- or close-minded I am. I just won't make claims that I cannot back up.
"There are lines that you can't cross either..." please, not the MiB/PTB line.
It IS easy IF you have a genuine OU device. One of my acquaintances is a billionaire with solar cell manufacturing plants worldwide.

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 06, 2015, 02:28:48 PM
Haha you just want to laugh at me do you and make it all so easy to sweep under the carpet. I'm not really interested in talking to you about this because you just mock and show so much ignorance.
You didn't bother to even listen to the heart of the matter. I wrote that yes when the neon bulbs glow it usually means there is an insufficient load or none at all. Why twist that part out to make it like I said something about powering a neon was something significant. Why, because you are only interested in discrediting this which you do not understand. The output of these systems normally depends on the size, voltage and condition of the batteries being charged and the larger the battery bank the more charge takes place.
All that being said, now we add something to the output between the motor and the charging battery. Battery continues to be charged while input patter is only drawing 1W. Now additional outputs power 1 and 2 and 4 and 10 and 20 bulbs each requiring much more than 1 W to run.
Now pay attention mocker. I then said that while each bulb and load is added the neon bulbs on the motor start to light up and get brighter and brighter. I didn't say something about what it takes to power a neon bulb. lol If you knew the circuit you would understand what is happening here. The motor does not draw any more power and does not change rpm during this time.
There's your 1W challenge. What can you do with 1W? Power a motor 2500RPM while charging a battery and powering 100W leds?
No, you don't care about all that only with how much energy it takes to power the neon bulbs. lol You are a joke.

You don't need to play the wounded puppy.  Nor should you play straw man and put words in my mouth.   Based on the limited amount of information you provided I was just speculating on a scenario, and I posed it to you as a question with no malice or bad words in the question.  I just asked you a question.

As far as what you state above, then same as my previous post.  Please provide as much information as you can including schematics, diagrams, waveforms, measurements, etc.  If you showed exactly what you are talking about, then it can be explained.  There is a good chance that the explanation would have to be taught to you also, based on what I have seen of you in the past.  So whatever your claims are above, they are almost certainly not in the least bit remarkable at all.  That is the recurring issue that crops up with people like yourself and JB.  No amount of playing the wounded butterfly or doing any pseudo-science speculating or any of your own name-calling is going to change that.

Quotewhich you do not understand.

I am assuming that you don't know me and so you are prejudging me.  You can't prejudge me and you don't know what I understand or do not understand.  The likelihood is that I understand more than you think.  Then there are others around here that are much more knowledgeable than me.

For me, for the last seven years I have watched the JB scene on an off.  I know that you split with JB but I don't know all the details and I really don't need to know the story.  So I am fully aware of you and have watched many clips by you and read you in the past.   In the old days of Google Video I even watched your long clip where you show a Bedini motor "self runner."  It looks like you are perhaps in a basement of a house and you had a crudely made Bedini motor built around a bicycle wheel.  Your claims of a "self runner" in that clip fall flat - nothing could have been further from the truth.  You relative knowledge is pretty much revealed in that clip, although that clip is quite old now so you could be much more knowledgeable now.   But honestly I am not getting the vibe.

Fake claims and tall tales = more DVDs sold, more book downloads, more heads at a conference.   That's the vibe that I have always gotten from JB and also from you.

The "sceptics and engineers don't know or understand what we are doing" is the Big Lie.  I know that you have to repeat it all the time so that it becomes second nature and people start to believe you.  The truth is that is a LIE, and based on observing you in the past, the average experimenter that truly knows what they are doing would knock over every "they don't understand this new stuff that is not in books" argument with ease.  It's all in books and you guys typically play with electronics at the "high school keener" level but without properly being able to explain why the neons light.  Instead of explaining why the neons light, you will say it is "radiant energy."  Likewise, "voltage with no current" to describe a discharging inductor is so bad that it is "not even wrong."

That's your reality check Rick.  In your line of business, truth and reality are not good for sales.

MileHigh

There is no point with you. You have already stated your intentions and limitations. You have proven to only be interested in mocking. The point is you are closed and only assumed the worst no matter what was said. I have not exactly provided no details. You already know everything about me, including what underwear I have on. At least the other guy said sorry. You will not own up to anything. You cannot be wrong about anything in your mind apparently.  ::) I'm joking around with as well because I don't take you seriously at all. I'm having a little fun here so don't be offended with my giving back the crap you are throwing at me. If we all met in person I bet we would all shake hands at the end of the day.
I know about what you are saying. The problem is that I came on here and posted a positive notice and you have come on just mocking and accusing. And actually I care very little about Free Energy. It will not change the world as so many assume. It is the right attitudes that are far more important. Unless people are honest and humble and treat others with respect this world has no hope. So I would rather you people learn the scientific method and learn respect than have your electrical bills reduced. People need to get beyond the slave mentality in science and in life. That is what I am interested in promoting. It is much better that people be taught to not be prejudiced (contrary to what the school systems train us to be) than be given more efficient systems. Our meetings are for open people and I try to make this a theme. We had a guy last meeting come in and make a big commotion about using his meters and whathaveyou. He went on about how the motor was not possible and that he didn't test it. etc. It was interesting that he made the most noise for someone who didn't even pay and slipped out without paying. lol Then he missed the most important parts where all his questions were answered. So what I'm saying is there is so much impatiences and blindness. It is not the technology at fault but the prejudices. Can you imagine what progress there would be if the schools started teaching students how to think for themselves rather than just to memorize their facts that they really don't know how to evaluate. It is such a sad day when engineers trust so much in their meters that they cannot even ride on a boat and enjoy life.
All the best MileHigh in living in that slave box. Hopefully one day you can begin to know how nature really works and not fight against her.

Quote from: MileHigh on February 06, 2015, 02:57:58 PM
How is anybody supposed to make a statement when you provide no details?  But I can certainly envision what you are stating being true and unremarkable.

So how about you just state clearly and unambiguously what you are talking about.  Show the circuit, flesh out all of the details, what meter or meters are you using, etc.?

Electronics is not done in text.  Please provide all the information.

Like I said, you have a problem with even simple statements that are said to you. It may be intentional or it may be just a personal problem of yours. idk. To say "I just asked you a question" is false. Go back and read what you said. Hopefully can can save yourself from your own rudeness and prejudice. There is no profit in debating with someone like you. You are bent on attack and cannot see your own insults and blindness. I am not expecting you to believe me in anything. But at least give respect. You believe what you want to. Like I said, go back to living in your slave box that is constructed with a meter that ensures you limit yourself with such living.

Quote from: MileHigh on February 06, 2015, 03:27:17 PM
You don't need to play the wounded puppy.  Nor should you play straw man and put words in my mouth.   Based on the limited amount of information you provided I was just speculating on a scenario, and I posed it to you as a question with no malice or bad words in the question.  I just asked you a question.

As far as what you state above, then same as my previous post.  Please provide as much information as you can including schematics, diagrams, waveforms, measurements, etc.  If you showed exactly what you are talking about, then it can be explained.  There is a good chance that the explanation would have to be taught to you also, based on what I have seen of you in the past.  So whatever your claims are above, they are almost certainly not in the least bit remarkable at all.  That is the recurring issue that crops up with people like yourself and JB.  No amount of playing the wounded butterfly or doing any pseudo-science speculating or any of your own name-calling is going to change that.

I am assuming that you don't know me and so you are prejudging me.  You can't prejudge me and you don't know what I understand or do not understand.  The likelihood is that I understand more than you think.  Then there are others around here that are much more knowledgeable than me.

For me, for the last seven years I have watched the JB scene on an off.  I know that you split with JB but I don't know all the details and I really don't need to know the story.  So I am fully aware of you and have watched many clips by you and read you in the past.   In the old days of Google Video I even watched your long clip where you show a Bedini motor "self runner."  It looks like you are perhaps in a basement of a house and you had a crudely made Bedini motor built around a bicycle wheel.  Your claims of a "self runner" in that clip fall flat - nothing could have been further from the truth.  You relative knowledge is pretty much revealed in that clip, although that clip is quite old now so you could be much more knowledgeable now.   But honestly I am not getting the vibe.

Fake claims and tall tales = more DVDs sold, more book downloads, more heads at a conference.   That's the vibe that I have always gotten from JB and also from you.

The "sceptics and engineers don't know or understand what we are doing" is the Big Lie.  I know that you have to repeat it all the time so that it becomes second nature and people start to believe you.  The truth is that is a LIE, and based on observing you in the past, the average experimenter that truly knows what they are doing would knock over every "they don't understand this new stuff that is not in books" argument with ease.  It's all in books and you guys typically play with electronics at the "high school keener" level but without properly being able to explain why the neons light.  Instead of explaining why the neons light, you will say it is "radiant energy."  Likewise, "voltage with no current" to describe a discharging inductor is so bad that it is "not even wrong."

That's your reality check Rick.  In your line of business, truth and reality are not good for sales.

MileHigh

Rick:

I ain't living in no slave box.  I have given you my opinions and you should take them to heart.  From what I have seen, for years you have been "playing the electronics guy" like some character in a commercial.  You know, "I am not a doctor, but I play one on TV."  A person that has no knowledge about electronics can go to your conference, meet you, and think you are the real thing.  Meanwhile I could be standing next to the two of you listening to what you have to say and almost freaking out at the words that are actually coming out of your mouth.

How do you measure the power output into the charging battery only using the basic stuff that you typically have on any experimenter's bench?

I bet that you can't answer that question.  And that highlights the contrasts:  You have been pitching the "wonders of pulse motors" for seven or eight years and you don't even know how to measure the output power.  Chances are the only thing that you can do is tell your customers to measure the charging battery voltage from time to time.  And of course, that doesn't even answer the question.

MileHigh

"What would happen to this world if a little box suddenly replaced all power sources? Do you think that would be allowed? " Yes, it would be allowed.
History is full of replaced technologies and saying that 'big' oil or any conglomerate won't 'allow a disruptive technology goes against history. There are exceptions of course, but in general this is true.
"Yeah my brother's uncle has a friend is knows a guy who has that kind of money. lol" Well, I am talking about a real person; I don't lie or exaggerate.

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 06, 2015, 03:37:01 PM
Like I said, you have a problem with even simple statements that are said to you. It may be intentional or it may be just a personal problem of yours. idk. To say "I just asked you a question" is false. Go back and read what you said. Hopefully can can save yourself from your own rudeness and prejudice. There is no profit in debating with someone like you. You are bent on attack and cannot see your own insults and blindness. I am not expecting you to believe me in anything. But at least give respect. You believe what you want to. Like I said, go back to living in your slave box that is constructed with a meter that ensures you limit yourself with such living.

Sometimes you deserve some push-back for all the years of questionable and outright BS statements.  You are not an innocent good all around guy when you make statements that you can't back up and you 'play' your audience.  Believe me, there are a lot of JB anti-fans out there.  I am not hearing any violins for you Rick.  Just be a big boy.  There is room for tons of cynicism related to your overall pitch.

Did you personally make the BS computer animated clip with the 10-coiler supposedly powering a house for the 2010 conference?  If you did, where is your personal integrity?  You can do your thing without all of this "conventional science doesn't understand" BS.  The appearances that I see from my perspective are that you don't understand conventional science or electronics and you are just winging it.

The truth will set you free Rick and you might be able to make an income without having to act like a fake song and dance pitch man for some kind of magic elixir when in fact there is no "radiant energy" elixir.

Quote from: memoryman on February 06, 2015, 12:43:26 PM
"No that is not correct. bla bla bla MileHigh So what is this site a place of trolls?"
No, it is a place where people think critically, as opposed to believing the 'teachers' who cannot demonstrate what they teach.
There is nothing wrong with promoting anything as long as claims can be or have been verified (this magic potion cures all forms of cancer) and there is full disclosure.
MH, TK, I and many others on this forum are quite capable of reproducing and improving just about any electrical/electronic design.
If you are promoting a 'free energy' device/design but cannot demonstrate it yourself (just like Bedini, Lindemann et all), and claim that it works, imho there is something 'fishy'.
Btw, I have a long standing offer out that any inventor that can demonstrate to my satisfaction OU or even a very useful device, I will use my extensive connections to get that device to market, free of charge.

More specifically, if you do that in Germany you can get a cell next to Mike Brady.

Quote from: memoryman on February 06, 2015, 01:46:56 PM
But MH, faith cannot be measured...

Brother memoryman, I can measure your faith by your willingness to entrust me with the proceeds of your bank account.

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 06, 2015, 02:16:10 PM
Ah, finally an guy asking for clarity and not making assumptions.
Machine(s).

So then what form of proof will you show that these free energy machines actually produce free energy?

If you have faith, you don't need no stinking proof...
Watch 0:55 in, our esteemed former Premier Jean Chretien speaking...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLpp1urOeoM

http://www.strohmedia.de/product_info.php?products_id=738778 (http://www.strohmedia.de/product_info.php?products_id=738778)     :'( 


*facepalm*

Quote from: orbut 3000 on February 06, 2015, 05:42:15 PM
http://www.strohmedia.de/product_info.php?products_id=738778 (http://www.strohmedia.de/product_info.php?products_id=738778)     :'( 


*facepalm*

4,700.00 Euro's.  ;) sounds good, I think I should start selling the solar panels off my roof so I can buy one, or maybe I
should get a 10 pole pulse motor rather than 3 or 4 wind powered generators. Hmmm let me think. Naahh I think I'll
stick with a plan to get what actually works to gather energy from the environment, demonstrable, reliable, and relatively cheap
for what they do, solar wind and hydro works and can be applied by an individual with basic skills and safety knowledge.

..

I'm planning to fit one or two 10 Watt solar panels to my cars rear shelf (behind the headrests) so that the battery doesn't
get drained down by the security system, this will allow me to leave the car sit for a month or so without disconnecting
the battery and will prevent the battery from becoming sulfated, it will also save fuel as the alternator won't need to
recharge the battery of all the charge lost due to the security system and so forth. After about a week sitting the car
battery becomes drained of some charge and when I start the car the alternator has to replace all that charge at present.
With a solar panel fitted only the charge drained from the battery due to starting the engine will need to be replaced
by the burning of fuel. All cars should have a small solar panel factory fitted these days to prevent battery drain when
the vehicle is not used. Also will allow the use of phone chargers and so forth for days on end without needing to start
the car engine or apply an external charger. save save save, win win win. yay yay yay.

All this pulse motor fantasy and claims of getting something for free by desulfating a battery is getting rather old and lame.

You guys are the joke. You all are getting old really fast. Just a bunch of talkers.

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 06, 2015, 11:34:49 PM
You guys are the joke. You all are getting old really fast. Just a bunch of talkers.

What specifically does $4700. buy me?  If I give you $4700. will you deliver a working free energy machine?

Quote from: MileHigh on February 06, 2015, 03:43:12 PM
Rick:

I ain't living in no slave box.  I have given you my opinions and you should take them to heart.  From what I have seen, for years you have been "playing the electronics guy" like some character in a commercial.  You know, "I am not a doctor, but I play one on TV."  A person that has no knowledge about electronics can go to your conference, meet you, and think you are the real thing.  Meanwhile I could be standing next to the two of you listening to what you have to say and almost freaking out at the words that are actually coming out of your mouth.

How do you measure the power output into the charging battery only using the basic stuff that you typically have on any experimenter's bench?

I bet that you can't answer that question.  And that highlights the contrasts:  You have been pitching the "wonders of pulse motors" for seven or eight years and you don't even know how to measure the output power.  Chances are the only thing that you can do is tell your customers to measure the charging battery voltage from time to time.  And of course, that doesn't even answer the question.

MileHigh

Ask Rick to post the current SG load test procedure and run through exactly how the measurements should be taken and with what instruments. It will become apparent to anyone with a good electrical engineering background that the procedure is flawed and does not prove that there is 'more out than in'. The charging batteries are simply desufating on each charge / discharge cycle, giving the impression of a gain.

Quote from: orbut 3000 on February 06, 2015, 05:42:15 PM
http://www.strohmedia.de/product_info.php?products_id=738778 (http://www.strohmedia.de/product_info.php?products_id=738778)     :'( 


*facepalm*

Well it certainly has everything a good electromechanical "Free Energy" machine needs, doesn't it?

-Wires strewn haphazardly across the bench--check.
-lots of colored clipleads--check.
-several DMMs connected every whichaway--check.
-a few BHBs (big honking batteries)-- check.
-big heavy flywheel rotational energy storage--check.
-big banks of expensive mystery stuff that need cooling fans--check.
-not a C-H 2335A Power Analyzer anywhere nearby--check.
-laboratory lighting, HVAC, etc. powered by ordinary mains power--check.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb1UpX0-Q00

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 06, 2015, 11:34:49 PM
You guys are the joke. You all are getting old really fast. Just a bunch of talkers.

I sure wish I could find the video of you and John standing over your replication of a Magic Magnet Motor, Mylow's IIRC, where you are spinning it up by hand and shouting "It Works!"
Have you got a copy we could look at?

See how distorted you are, I exposed Milo. That was a joke video.

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 07, 2015, 11:36:13 AM
See how distorted you are, I exposed Milo. That was a joke video.

No, you didn't expose Mylow, and it's perfectly clear in the video that you fully believe what you are doing. Show the video and let the viewers decide whether it was a "joke" or not.

I exposed Mylow, in over two dozen video demonstrations and a long thread on this forum, even to the point of Sterling Allan admitting that I was the first to "reproduce" Mylow's drive system. Yet he weaseled out of awarding me the prize he offered since my system wasn't "self running". The fact that Mylow's wasn't either, apparently didn't bother him.

Here's a "joke" Mylow video. I'm not afraid to show you mine..... so show us yours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvpTXdWAd1M

Friedrich, as MH and TK have said, it is not hard or expensive to show conclusive proof of OU, yet it is never done.
Rather than general talk, please be specific.
ARE ANY OF THE DEVICES THAT YOU PROMOTE OU N THE NORMALLY ACCEPTED SENSE?

Rick might be gone for good if he feels responding here is a net loss in terms of his overall self interest.

He makes a wishy-washy claim of over unity on one of his YouTube clips so I thought a look at it would be interesting.

4 DualPole producing maybe 3 times output mosfet driven

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPYQVOQCKVo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPYQVOQCKVo)

<<<
I converted an older 4 Dualpole motor from a year ago to run off of a smaller mosfet and be triggered by either the reed switch or a hall switch. I took a hall switch off one of the dc fans and used it. It was difficult because it was a latching type which requires the opposite pole to turn it off. So the on time of the motor was considerably longer than normal which created a much more inefficient system than the reed switch offered with the same mosfet. This was as expected. However, turning the rotor in the opposite direction and carefully positioning the latching
hall sensor switch on its side close to the generator coil allowed for a really good performance. The rpms and torque was desirable and would appear to be at least 6W worth of power (which was all that we were supplying--less than half an ampere at 12V. This 6W is based upon a later run of the motor when I repositioned the hall where it dramatically increased the RPM and reduced the amp draw.) The charging rate was fast as well. The battery was charging up to 17V while the primary was holding 12.7 around. At the same time three groups of LEDs were powered from the generator coils, which were a reduction of the motor load when the hall switch was ideally positioned. These bulbs were rated for over 6W total and yet were at near full brightness. One generator coil powered a blue LED strip and a 2.8W LED cluster while the other three coils powered a 5.7W LED bulb that is equivalent to a 35V incandescent bulb in light. So altogether the amount of light could be considered somewhere close to the 6W input from the primary bank. Three different outputs, the charging battery, the motor torque, and the LEDs amount for a combined output clearly over that of the input, if not three times.
>>>

It gives you a sense of how substantive the claims of demonstrating over unity devices at the upcoming conferences are likely to be.  Notice that no output measurements are performed, what you get instead are whimsical-at-best anecdotal statements.

The three outputs:

1.  The charging battery - I have never seen anyone in the extended JB realm ever make an attempt to measure the power output from the pulse motor into the charging battery.  As Hoppy mentioned, the usual methodology based around measuring battery voltages is critically flawed.

2.  The motor torque - I think that we all would agree that "the motor torque," interpreted in the form of waste heat power warming up the air and the bearings is not considered to be useful output power.  In the strictest sense the "motor torque" is zero.

3.  The LEDs - The "eyeball power meter" is like a very drunk sailor in a storm.  It simply does not work, and then you need a DSO with built-in math or waveform export to do the measurement.  Rick did not do this.

So, pretty much a lame claim for sure.

MileHigh

P.S.:  At first I thought the LEDs were powered by the back-EMF spikes from the motor coils.  Rick says that they are powered by generator coils.  So in theory there is a torque load on the rotor.  However, we are already accounting for it when we the discuss the LED power.  You can't double-count by stating that there is a torque output (unmeasured) and LED outputs (unmeasured) because they are one in the same.

If the battery is reading 17 volts and it's a 12 volt lead acid battery then it is fairly well sulfated for sure. That means to get
the 17 volts reading takes bugger all power = fail 101.

I'd like to see Rick make a video of a brand new low resistance battery being held at 17 volts by his pulse motor, that would
be interesting. Test the battery with a CCA load tester to show it's good then take it to 17 volts. Bring it on. Wooohooo

People are more aware now Rick or they should be, or would be if it wasn't for the P.T. Barnum effect.

..

Quote from: MileHigh on February 07, 2015, 04:47:37 PM
Rick might be gone for good if he feels responding here is a net loss in terms of his overall self interest.

He makes a wishy-washy claim of over unity on one of his YouTube clips so I thought a look at it would be interesting.

4 DualPole producing maybe 3 times output mosfet driven

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPYQVOQCKVo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPYQVOQCKVo)

<<<
I converted an older 4 Dualpole motor from a year ago to run off of a smaller mosfet and be triggered by either the reed switch or a hall switch. I took a hall switch off one of the dc fans and used it. It was difficult because it was a latching type which requires the opposite pole to turn it off. So the on time of the motor was considerably longer than normal which created a much more inefficient system than the reed switch offered with the same mosfet. This was as expected. However, turning the rotor in the opposite direction and carefully positioning the latching
hall sensor switch on its side close to the generator coil allowed for a really good performance. The rpms and torque was desirable and would appear to be at least 6W worth of power (which was all that we were supplying--less than half an ampere at 12V. This 6W is based upon a later run of the motor when I repositioned the hall where it dramatically increased the RPM and reduced the amp draw.) The charging rate was fast as well. The battery was charging up to 17V while the primary was holding 12.7 around. At the same time three groups of LEDs were powered from the generator coils, which were a reduction of the motor load when the hall switch was ideally positioned. These bulbs were rated for over 6W total and yet were at near full brightness. One generator coil powered a blue LED strip and a 2.8W LED cluster while the other three coils powered a 5.7W LED bulb that is equivalent to a 35V incandescent bulb in light. So altogether the amount of light could be considered somewhere close to the 6W input from the primary bank. Three different outputs, the charging battery, the motor torque, and the LEDs amount for a combined output clearly over that of the input, if not three times.
>>>

It gives you a sense of how substantive the claims of demonstrating over unity devices at the upcoming conferences are likely to be.  Notice that no output measurements are performed, what you get instead are whimsical-at-best anecdotal statements.

The three outputs:

1.  The charging battery - I have never seen anyone in the extended JB realm ever make an attempt to measure the power output from the pulse motor into the charging battery.  As Hoppy mentioned, the usual methodology based around measuring battery voltages is critically flawed.

2.  The motor torque - I think that we all would agree that "the motor torque," interpreted in the form of waste heat power warming up the air and the bearings is not considered to be useful output power.  In the strictest sense the "motor torque" is zero.

3.  The LEDs - The "eyeball power meter" is like a very drunk sailor in a storm.  It simply does not work, and then you need a DSO with built-in math or waveform export to do the measurement.  Rick did not do this.

So, pretty much a lame claim for sure.

MileHigh

P.S.:  At first I thought the LEDs were powered by the back-EMF spikes from the motor coils.  Rick says that they are powered by generator coils.  So in theory there is a torque load on the rotor.  However, we are already accounting for it when we the discuss the LED power.  You can't double-count by stating that there is a torque output (unmeasured) and LED outputs (unmeasured) because they are one in the same.

Wouldn't it be a hoot if one person showed up with appropriate kit that fit into their pockets, and another person caught what happens on video when that person offers to measure the "free energy" machine input and outputs properly?  What would happen then?  Would the machines live up to RF's claims and wow the world?  Would they perform underunity just as they always have?  Or would RF object to the idea of proper measurements?  In any case it might be something interesting to catch on video.

Free energy machines are very shy and delicate. They have been known to break down and be unrepairable for weeks at a time, just when someone even mentions the phrase "Broadband power analyzer" .

Some of them are even so shy that they stop working just when certain _people_ get off an airplane in the same city! Sterling Allan is one of those people and has shut down half-a-dozen Free Energy machines just by the force of his presence in town. And he's a believer! The "Little Effect" is legendary. All Scott Little has to do is to propose an experiment in an email... and the machine stops working.

I'm sorry my friend or enemy, you are mistaken. I exposed him when other people believed in that. I was exposing several people like that at that time. Yes we did play around with magnet motors and I still have the rotor where the rotor almost or just about maintained rotation. While we knew it was a fake, nevertheless it was fun to explore some things in showing that.

I always said that those kinds of systems were not practical even if you could maintain rotation. We played around with the Howard Johnson train and track that I had access to for years. My friend spent much time attempting to calculate what energy it took to bring the train into position and how much force it pushed the train out of the magnetic tunnel. It really wasn't impressive considering all the cost of the magnets and the time it would take to glue them all together. I thought maybe we could make the train go around in a loop or something but it was doubtful that it could even maintain that rotation.
I was not really interested in pursuing that kind of system with regular magnets. Magnets needed to be made differently to make a purely magnet motor, otherwise at best you get just a curious self-rotating device that does no practical work.

Quote from: TinselKoala on February 07, 2015, 12:16:23 PM
No, you didn't expose Mylow, and it's perfectly clear in the video that you fully believe what you are doing. Show the video and let the viewers decide whether it was a "joke" or not.

I exposed Mylow, in over two dozen video demonstrations and a long thread on this forum, even to the point of Sterling Allan admitting that I was the first to "reproduce" Mylow's drive system. Yet he weaseled out of awarding me the prize he offered since my system wasn't "self running". The fact that Mylow's wasn't either, apparently didn't bother him.

Here's a "joke" Mylow video. I'm not afraid to show you mine..... so show us yours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvpTXdWAd1M

As for the amount of time I spend on talking about battery management it can be 1 to 2 hours. So no, I don't rush past that part, it is one of the most important things to get right. People bring their meters from all over the world to put on the batteries or in series with them. You can do whatever you want. I spend a lot of time going over the ways to improve the efficiency of the output just as I go over the ways to extend the life of your batteries. All you want to do is evaluate these things from one angle or one method. And that is fine for you. But if your meters show zero volts across a bulb and zero amps in series to that bulb will you stay around to notice the light on? In the same way a battery can show little or no amps in series with the output while running, and yet be able to be charged up faster and do a lot more work than what was shown by a meter to have gone into the battery. This is basic stuff here and was all people were doing on the old SG groups. And while more batteries, and larger batteries were added to the output the amount of power to be taken from these same charged batteries was proportionally more than if a smaller battery was charged instead (even when nothing else changed on the input). Thus something different was taking place than normal. And I go into details about how people get easily mistaken when voltages can rise fast with sulfated batteries. To do proper testing you need new batteries or rejuvenated batteries or you can get false estimations of efficiency. The real capacity of a battery needs to be determined to properly evaluate these things. From there I explain how to increase the efficiency of the output with the right method of charging and battery resting and rotation. It can take an hour to go over all these things. In the end we are not looking at the direct output into the battery while it is charging but the output of the batteries that have been charged into the real world. That is the real output, not the internal measurements before the charging is complete. This is where people make the mistake. Like I said, I don't care what you conclude on my boat measuring it while I'm on lake CDA driving around. At the end of the day I just rotate the batteries around and you scratch your head in wonder how it can be possible. Yes it doesn't make sense to you and without seeing it you assume the worst. I'm not sure if I can fault you for assuming it when there has indeed been so much ignorance and fraud in this "free energy" world. I'm grieved by that and am just doing what I can to promote what I know. I'm years beyond these basic arguments personally and I sometimes forget that people are still not even at first base in this. My meetings and time are not about trying to prove these basic first steps so I am sorry for the way this dialogue has progressed. I figured it is now common knowledge and that we were beyond all that. And I assumed that on Overunity most people would be beyond these things. Anyway, we do have a few parts of the meeting where people can see and measure for themselves to their own satisfaction. There you will be able to put your meter showing zero volts and amps. This is not my part. I can't explain that myself and stand just as amazed. So if meters can't show a measurable input then we have a system that is outside of that box we have been in for the last 150 years or so. The box is real and predictable and useful for charging people money for energy, but when the walls come down to Nature and people understand how to tap into it, then they can become a little freer indeed...

Quote from: MileHigh on February 06, 2015, 03:43:12 PM
Rick:

I ain't living in no slave box.  I have given you my opinions and you should take them to heart.  From what I have seen, for years you have been "playing the electronics guy" like some character in a commercial.  You know, "I am not a doctor, but I play one on TV."  A person that has no knowledge about electronics can go to your conference, meet you, and think you are the real thing.  Meanwhile I could be standing next to the two of you listening to what you have to say and almost freaking out at the words that are actually coming out of your mouth.

How do you measure the power output into the charging battery only using the basic stuff that you typically have on any experimenter's bench?

I bet that you can't answer that question.  And that highlights the contrasts:  You have been pitching the "wonders of pulse motors" for seven or eight years and you don't even know how to measure the output power.  Chances are the only thing that you can do is tell your customers to measure the charging battery voltage from time to time.  And of course, that doesn't even answer the question.

MileHigh

Gentlemen
It sounds like we need to muster an investigation  crew for this show,or at the very least
validate this very important Claim !


respectfully
Chet

Rich, claiming that what meters show or don't is proof, is false.
You would need at least a 'scope to see what is happening and preferable more equipment.
And the batteries will have to go through longer term tests to discover what effect there is.
Do you have any results that you can share?

Rick:

QuoteBut if your meters show zero volts across a bulb and zero amps in series to that bulb will you stay around to notice the light on?

For this example you are citing, did you connect an oscilloscope across the bulb and across a current sensing resistor?

QuoteIn the same way a battery can show little or no amps in series with the output while running, and yet be able to be charged up faster and do a lot more work than what was shown by a meter to have gone into the battery.

Your sentence is ambiguous.  If you are making a point about something that you allege is out of the ordinary, back it up with a full description and data.  What's very tiring is the "vague claim" business.

QuoteAnd while more batteries, and larger batteries were added to the output the amount of power to be taken from these same charged batteries was proportionally more than if a smaller battery was charged instead (even when nothing else changed on the input). Thus something different was taking place than normal.

Same comments as above.  You have been playing with pulse motors, batteries, and energy for six or seven years.  I don't believe that you can't articulate a claim that "something different was taking place than normal" without having what you are stating not make logical sense with a complete, clear description of what you are talking about.  Plus I expect you to back it up with data.

QuoteThat is the real output, not the internal measurements before the charging is complete. This is where people make the mistake.

Here is where you are making a mistake.  If you pulse charge a battery and measure that input energy, then the energy that you can extract from the battery will be less.  This assumes multiple test cycles to show solid, verifiable data.

The problem is that you have never measured the energy going into the charging battery in the first place.  So when you do load tests to measure the output energy you don't know for yourself when you talk about the "real output" because you don't even know the input.

QuoteAt the end of the day I just rotate the batteries around and you scratch your head in wonder how it can be possible. Yes it doesn't make sense to you and without seeing it you assume the worst.

It makes perfect sense to me that when you run your boat motor that some recharging takes place.  Why should I wonder when I have been talking about measuring the recharging power?  Burn that straw man.  Do you have to be "pressed to the wall" to concede that you can't swap boat batteries indefinitely?  You are just doing the 10-coiler-powering-a-house lie again.  Yes I am talking tough because for the second time you are talking about your electric boat without giving any details or data and I already pressed you on that.

In the middle of the night, you sneak into the marina with an extension cord and do your dirty work.

QuoteSo if meters can't show a measurable input then we have a system that is outside of that box we have been in for the last 150 years or so.

I can imagine a hypothetical scenario.  You play the "Big Dummy."   You are powering a bulb with very very short high-voltage medium-current pulses and you connect a analog voltmeter across the bulb and it shows zero volts.  You put the same meter in series and it shows no amps.

Ha! Ha! The Big Dummy connected an analog meter up to a train of very very narrow voltage and current pulses and the meter showed nothing but the light bulb lit up.  The Big Dummy is a carnival barker for sure.

MileHigh

wow just f-ing wow and you trolls wonder why inventors aren't forthcoming with details about their devices.

jon

Of course an oscilloscope of anyone's choosing. 400 MHz is fine. If the voltage was stepped up then you would see it on the scope. And indeed what the oscope shows is very interesting indeed, something you have never seen my friend. So if some manipulation of meters was involved then how do you explain 1W of power only coming from the primary battery that drives the motor that also charges another battery and runs many LEDs, some of which are 100W each??? I know, an extension cord that we connect from CDA Idaho marina all the way over to Hamburg through the ocean lol.  ::)
You are just so full of assumptions. The problem with your assumptions is that we are aware of all these things you mention and you are always mistaken as to what is going on Mr. Troll. You just assume fraud so what is the point answering anything you say.  Anything said you just call me an idiot. Take a hike mileHigh! Go use your extension cords...

Quote from: MileHigh on February 09, 2015, 10:45:52 AM
Rick:

For this example you are citing, did you connect an oscilloscope across the bulb and across a current sensing resistor?

Your sentence is ambiguous.  If you are making a point about something that you allege is out of the ordinary, back it up with a full description and data.  What's very tiring is the "vague claim" business.

Same comments as above.  You have been playing with pulse motors, batteries, and energy for six or seven years.  I don't believe that you can't articulate a claim that "something different was taking place than normal" without having what you are stating not make logical sense with a complete, clear description of what you are talking about.  Plus I expect you to back it up with data.

Here is where you are making a mistake.  If you pulse charge a battery and measure that input energy, then the energy that you can extract from the battery will be less.  This assumes multiple test cycles to show solid, verifiable data.

The problem is that you have never measured the energy going into the charging battery in the first place.  So when you do load tests to measure the output energy you don't know for yourself when you talk about the "real output" because you don't even know the input.

It makes perfect sense to me that when you run your boat motor that some recharging takes place.  Why should I wonder when I have been talking about measuring the recharging power?  Burn that straw man.  Do you have to be "pressed to the wall" to concede that you can't swap boat batteries indefinitely?  You are just doing the 10-coiler-powering-a-house lie again.  Yes I am talking tough because for the second time you are talking about your electric boat without giving any details or data and I already pressed you on that.

In the middle of the night, you sneak into the marina with an extension cord and do your dirty work.

I can imagine a hypothetical scenario.  You play the "Big Dummy."   You are powering a bulb with very very short high-voltage medium-current pulses and you connect a analog voltmeter across the bulb and it shows zero volts.  You put the same meter in series and it shows no amps.

Ha! Ha! The Big Dummy connected an analog meter up to a train of very very narrow voltage and current pulses and the meter showed nothing but the light bulb lit up.  The Big Dummy is a carnival barker for sure.

MileHigh

Jon:

I don't like "free energy theatre," and you see it all the time.  The classic one is lighting up a light bulb after you put it into a bowl of water.  Some people even claim that is a demonstration of "radiant energy."

I did also make some technical points, feel free to respond to them if you want to.  I am not trolling, I am making points.

Thee is nothing wrong with holding a seminar, it's a free country.  Calling it a "free energy conference" when no free energy devices will be demonstrated is false advertising.  But talking to people about alternative energy strategies and how to manage batteries is certainly a good thing.  One thing you need to do is show the return on investment calculation.

Suppose you decide you want to have LED lighting in the bedroom and living room using batteries and a solar charger.  If the return on investment is five years, it sounds pretty good to me.  If the return on investment is 50 years not so good.

MileHigh

Rick:

QuoteOf course an oscilloscope of anyone's choosing. 400 MHz is fine. If the voltage was stepped up then you would see it on the scope. And indeed what the oscope shows is very interesting indeed, something you have never seen my friend. So if some manipulation of meters was involved then how do you explain 1W of power only coming from the primary battery that drives the motor that also charges another battery and runs many LEDs, some of which are 100W each???

You make a claim here.  Can you show the circuit and the measurements?

MileHigh

Milehigh, i think you were told to take a hike. ;)


ignorance is bliss lol

 

Quote from: RFIf the voltage was stepped up then you would see it on the scope. And indeed what the oscope shows is very interesting indeed, something you have never seen my friend.

It is very easy to attach images to your posts on this forum. So let's see some of these "never seen" scopeshots of the 0 volt, 0 amp light bulb lighting up.

As they say.... "Screenshot or it didn't happen".


Or are they secret, available only to those who buy the books, pay the admission price to the conference, purchase a kit?  (cue cash-register sound)

Quote from: jonfrommanahawkin1 on February 09, 2015, 11:18:32 AM
Milehigh, i think you were told to take a hike. ;)


ignorance is bliss lol

Did George Orwell say that?

But you make an important point.  If you go to a conference to learn, then asking questions is part of the process.  It not hard to envision though that certain questions would be frowned upon, like asking for a frank and open discussion about energy out vs. energy in measurements for batteries.  It doesn't even matter what way you are charging them.

Case in point:  What was that 2010 bloody "Windmill motor" actually supposed t do?  What did it DO?  I read a fair amount around that time and watched the clips and never saw any statement about what it was actually supposed to do.  That's a case where ignorance is not bliss.

Jon,
I think they can be Trolls but some people are people that have been burned by scammers. I have exposed some of these people where I could. Others are professors that take pride in their degrees and are insulted by something that shows they may be mistaken their whole life. I have seen this happen many times. Just think about a guy who has paid for his schooling and then taught the same old "science" for years and all the students looked to him for years as having the answers--answers that work within a simple framework--and then someone comes along and says people are actually flying in airplanes. He has to deny it or else his whole life's work was for nothing... Still others are just having fun mocking people. But I have I come to see yet another category of people that secretly do believe these things and act like they do not because they are just fishing for more free information by pressing people with insults. It has a tendency to make people to say more and more detail. These are another type of trolls, which I think most of them are. They are searching to improve their knowledge to improve their products and are not afraid to insult people in the process. Why else would they be so involved on these forms spending so much time? Their character shows they really don't care about others so they are not here to help others but are here to get something for sure. Unless, like I said, they were burned and now have an agenda to attack anyone that they feel looks or sounds the same.

Quote from: jonfrommanahawkin1 on February 09, 2015, 10:50:31 AM
wow just f-ing wow and you trolls wonder why inventors aren't forthcoming with details about their devices.

jon

Rich,
i agree 100%, its like a slap in their face to see that they spent all that time and money but yet someone in their workshop with no formal education can pick up a physics book and run circles around them then apply the remedial knowledge to build something that can brake all that Education, that did not teach them.

but after experiencing the trolls for myself i've now decided to use my youth skills and troll back...... trust me the millennials are good at it

all the best
jon

p.s. check your pm box

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 09, 2015, 11:26:44 AM
Jon,
I think they can be Trolls but some people are people that have been burned by scammers. I have exposed some of these people where I could. Others are professors that take pride in their degrees and are insulted by something that shows they may be mistaken their whole life. I have seen this happen many times. Just think about a guy who has paid for his schooling and then taught the same old "science" for years and all the students looked to him for years as having the answers--answers that work within a simple framework--and then someone comes along and says people are actually flying in airplanes. He has to deny it or else his whole life's work was for nothing... Still others are just having fun mocking people. But I have I come to see yet another category of people that secretly do believe these things and act like they do not because they are just fishing for more free information by pressing people with insults. It has a tendency to make people to say more and more detail. These are another type of trolls, which I think most of them are. They are searching to improve their knowledge to improve their products and are not afraid to insult people in the process. Why else would they be so involved on these forms spending so much time? Their character shows they really don't care about others so they are not here to help others but are here to get something for sure. Unless, like I said, they were burned and now have an agenda to attack anyone that they feel looks or sounds the same.

The scientists were sure of the inevitability of powered flight but it was the non-science-educated newspaper editors of the very early 20th century that did not have the vision thing for flight.  Your argument is an old cliche that is not true.  The context of that claim is the public debate in the daily newspapers of the day.

You are just hiding behind the term "troll" as feigned escape from discussing your stuff in a serious manner.  Look, I have seen dozens of clips that you characterize as "stuff they don't understand" and as "new out-of-the-box progressive thinking" that are in fact rudimentary electronics demonstrations.

Seriously Rick, there are people here and on OUR that have great knowledge and possess excellent bench skills.  Literally every single one of your "amazing - they don't understand" claims could be sliced and diced though with ease.  They are all explainable.  Chances are that would be a rude awakening for you yourself.

Probably the most tiring theme you are pushing is this notion that you are on the cutting edge and all those scientists and engineers are stuck in the past.  That is complete and total BS.  You are clearly the babe in the woods, the one that doesn't know how to make some basic bench measurements.  Sorry, just gotta keep it real.

MileHigh

"Keep it real" lol


it sounds like you've tried and failed at overunity

roflmao

and if you really knew the laws of thermodynamics, they actually allow for overunity but you have to actually understand how they came to the conclusion of these laws

jon

Jon:

Of course you are aware that people would state that the laws of thermodynamics are all about unity, not over unity.  Just because you say something does not mean it is true.

The reason I am here was because in the early days of YouTube on a lark I put the term "free energy" into the search.  To my surprise I saw that there was a small army of people out there building Bedini motors.

If you have a project to show one day just start a thread.  You will get good feedback from the people around here.  If you are making a claim of free energy and you get some follow-up questions, the challenge for you is to try and answer as opposed to calling the people asking the questions trolls.

MileHigh

Just because you say it can't doesn't mean it's true.  :o

Jon

And why should anyone answer to you

Quote from: MileHigh on February 09, 2015, 11:25:22 AM
George Orwell is my hero!

But you make an important point, everything you say is actually true.  If you go to a conference to learn, then asking questions is part of the process.  It not hard to envision though that certain questions would be welcome, like asking for a frank and open discussion about energy out vs. energy in measurements for batteries.  It does matter what way you are charging them.

Case in point:  What was that 2010 bloody "Windmill motor" actually supposed t do?  What did it DO?  I read a fair amount around that time and watched the clips and never saw any statement about what it was actually supposed to do.  That's a case where ignorance is not bliss.

LOL! I can distort your words as well. You have an art for twisting things. I said that there is no question that is not important. No question that is frowned about. In fact now we have someone who really understands the quantum vacuum theory and does an excellent job in answering the questions for those who are interested in asking. Previously some people were disappointed because no one could answer such related questions. You keep bringing up the 10 coiler. My prototype was changed just prior to that 2010 meeting by the guy who demonstrated it. He was supposed to make a battery rotating system which he slapped together at the last minute and ran this big motor on only 2A which is not the way it was made to run. Anyone knows when that kind of motor runs too low it doesn't do anything important. I do regret that some of the things didn't get finished on time with that meeting and that was certainly one thing that fell through the cracks. Some will never get beyond that. I'm the one that brought that to everyone's attention so why would I do that if I was pushing some lie?? I found that rotator was not how I requested it to be built. The batteries were being paralleled which were in totally different states of charge which would have caused all sorts of problems. It was a mess. I have to take responsibility for the statements that were made at that meeting. Also by others. There was a lot happening at that meeting and I can see where people have issue with all this because of those things. I allowed people to help that I thought were friends at both of those meetings. Several people destroyed the motors while "helping" to get them ready. My lawnmower was totally ruined for example. So that 10 coiler was modified down for that rotator in which a claim was made. The claim was actually correct for the motor when it was running as it should have been but not for how it was being run. However, I did drive in with the lawnmower in the 2010 meeting that was later in the boat for the 2011 meeting. And that motor weighed over 200 pounds on the front of the mower and I popped a wheelie at the start of the show. I was driving around on that while it was drawing 10A at 36V and charging batteries at the same time. Of course I had the same extension cord from the dock outside going to the motor but which was invisible.  ;D
Not sure what "Windmill motor". We never had a windmill motor. You are confused with someone else obviously.
The point is that the meetings were not so much an attempt to prove something as much as for people to see everything at once and interact with us and each other and to build some motors and learn what they could. You can't really or easily run all the tests that you need to prove this out in a day or two. Most people that came were not needing such proof but wanted to learn how to improve their outputs and learn all the associated information. And many wanted to come to hear stories. In order to prove something people need to do things themselves to prove to themselves one way or another. You have to be able to properly evaluate batteries if it is a battery system. If you have old or used or unequal batteries how can a fair comparison be made? You can't just go by the voltage of a battery but have to be able to determine the actual capacity by running them into real loads. Of course when you discharge the battery, and again folks Mr. MilesHigh in pride can't get this ever, which is the only way to evaluate this system, then you are dealing with losses in the inverter or other load also. So if you power a bulb or constant load with an inverter you have to realize that you have losses from the battery to the inverter to the load also. Anyway, if you don't know what your batteries put out and just rely on meters to tell you where they are at then you may be mistaken, depending on how good a battery capacity analyzer is. Some are better than others. I always want to verify with real loads over a full discharge. We often even take our batteries down to 8V but only consider up to 10.5V. Many times down to zero also. We charge them up very high but that is not always the most efficient way to use batteries... While batteries being equal are important for preliminary testing to how this works in the basics, it is recommended that much larger batteries of higher voltage be charged on the output. This is not always practical to do. For example, I ran a tiny 1W motor at 12V charging a 48V 2000AH battery bank. This was an extreme example. The motor charged the batteries slowly but the total amount of charge occurring was thousands of times greater than if another 12V 12AH battery were being charged in the same place. Again I didn't care what the meter was showing going into the batteries as much as what I could get out of them, and that repeatedly. I'll say again that it is important that the batteries be new or not sulfated up as this kind of system attempts to desulfate batteries which is not an efficient process. That is where people can also be mistaken.

Really, you think it takes more than a day or two to test for power out versus power in?  Would you like to be able to get that down to say two hours?  There are at least two methods that would manage that.

@ milehigh and readers

this is what i love about old washed up trolls, they claim to be smart but yet cant navigate a website, identify clickable links, or have coherent definitive thoughts.

if a small army is replicating the experiment isn't that peer review and duplication? (the abbreviation tard comes to mind)

also just because you say it cant work doesnt mean its true (hypocrite is a good definition)

and finally there is a simple principle that allows anyone to create an overunity device but you have to buy it from me now.

lol

having fun
jon

Mark,

i know keeping a group of people in front of a device for years is so easy to do why not just do it?

good lord
jon

Quote from: jonfrommanahawkin1 on February 09, 2015, 12:39:06 PM
@ milehigh and readers

this is what i love about old washed up trolls, they claim to be smart but yet cant navigate a website, identify clickable links, or have coherent definitive thoughts.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have tried to ask Rick just what it is that he promises to show and offer for sale.  I want him to tell me exactly what it is he is promising.

Quote

if a small army is replicating the experiment isn't that peer review and duplication? (the abbreviation tard comes to mind)

Repeating a demonstration without obtaining pertinent, reliable measurements does not add to knowledge.

Quote

also just because you say it cant work doesnt mean its true (hypocrite is a good definition)

That's what pertinent, reliable measurements would resolve.  Everyone should be interested in obtaining them.

Quote

and finally there is a simple principle that allows anyone to create an overunity device but you have to buy it from me now.

lol

having fun
jon

It seems that free lunches always require advance fees.

Quoteif a small army is replicating the experiment isn't that peer review and duplication? (the abbreviation tard comes to mind)

You are talking about my reference to the army of Bedini motor builders.  98% of Bedini motor clips just show the build, watch it spin, and measure the RPM and current draw from the supply battery.  So that means nothing.

If you have some links to share by all means please do.

Quote from: jonfrommanahawkin1 on February 09, 2015, 12:43:02 PM
Mark,

i know keeping a group of people in front of a device for years is so easy to do why not just do it?

good lord
jon

Why not just do what?  In order to get to pertinent, reliable measurements we need Rick to tell us just what it is that his machine is supposed to do, and his cooperation to perform a test on one of his units.

Milehigh

like i said what makes you the authority on anything?

jon

You are really good at insulting someone you do not know or understand. You are persistent because you are in fact a Troll. Otherwise why would you bother saying the same things over and over. You cannot accept any point at all. You have to twist every thing and boil everything down to your limited view. The scientists were NOT sure of flight. Maybe some were but it was thought impossible. You stand in the same spot as those who denied it. Anyone attempting to say we can only have the technology we presently have is foolish and ignorant of the history of science. You are dogmatic and closed. You have no way to prove there is nothing outside of your box. You refuse to open up your box to even see because of rumors and whathaveyou. The fact that you miss my points each time and try to jab me in irrelevant points shows that your are not sincere in any of this. You cannot hold a rational conversation but must continue to belittle and miss the points. There are excellent bench guys and physicists and others on both sides of this debate. It doesn't prove anything one way or another. And now video or online show of anything will be able to prove anything to a rational person one way or the other. Each person has to prove to themselves these things.

No there are many people not stuck in the past anymore.  But it is a fact that old errors and lies die hard. It takes time for people to see differently. They cherish the past. They worship their teaching. They kill innovation. Same old superstitious fears manifest and the heresy hunters have to come out and attack whatever they don't understand. You have to prove to them that they are wrong. Hey, I understand when you feel your religion is threatened then you have to destroy whatever gets in the way.

Oh I have had rude awakenings. I'm not afraid to be totally corrected. I know my limitations. I have stood corrected many times in my life. I embrace correction personally and in matters of science and philosophy. Why not when we can be wiser for it. It's emotionally hard at times but it is worth it. You talk as if I haven't had some rude awakenings in relation to this technology. I certainly have already. But again, I don't care what you think about the internal happenings in these systems when all I really care is the outcome. You can mystify away anything with your ad hominem attacks but in the end my lights are on, my fans are running, I don't need gas, and maybe my heat is free also. If you opt for solar and wind to do that, be my guest, it may be easier that way. Even though there have been some rude awakenings, and especially rude people, there have also been some pleasant ones.

Quote from: MileHigh on February 09, 2015, 11:43:18 AM
The scientists were sure of the inevitability of powered flight but it was the non-science-educated newspaper editors of the very early 20th century that did not have the vision thing for flight.  Your argument is an old cliche that is not true.  The context of that claim is the public debate in the daily newspapers of the day.

You are just hiding behind the term "troll" as feigned escape from discussing your stuff in a serious manner.  Look, I have seen dozens of clips that you characterize as "stuff they don't understand" and as "new out-of-the-box progressive thinking" that are in fact rudimentary electronics demonstrations.

Seriously Rick, there are people here and on OUR that have great knowledge and possess excellent bench skills.  Literally every single one of your "amazing - they don't understand" claims could be sliced and diced though with ease.  They are all explainable.  Chances are that would be a rude awakening for you yourself.

Probably the most tiring theme you are pushing is this notion that you are on the cutting edge and all those scientists and engineers are stuck in the past.  That is complete and total BS.  You are clearly the babe in the woods, the one that doesn't know how to make some basic bench measurements.  Sorry, just gotta keep it real.

MileHigh

Quote from: jonfrommanahawkin1 on February 09, 2015, 12:50:41 PM
Milehigh

like i said what makes you the authority on anything?

jon

Who said that I said that I was the authority on anything?  Not me.  Do I have some experience and knowledge to share?  Yes.  Do I sometimes comment on free energy propositions?  Yes.

Mike
is it that incredible to think that he wants to sell the information or you can design one yourself then see how willing you are to not monetize your work.

and a school child can understand my last statement

and patents, lol

you do realize that after the early 1900"s no patents of the sort will be issued but of only one that i know of and thats a fact jack

jon

Quote from: FRI'm sorry my friend or enemy, you are mistaken. I exposed him when other people believed in that. I was exposing several people like that at that time. Yes we did play around with magnet motors and I still have the rotor where the rotor almost or just about maintained rotation. While we knew it was a fake, nevertheless it was fun to explore some things in showing that.

No, I don't think I'm mistaken. Let's see some evidence from you, like date stamps, of your "exposing" Mylow. I've shown you just ONE of my many Mylow exposing videos and you can see the date stamp on it. So let's see your evidence that you "exposed" Mylow and just when you did it.

Sterling Allan acknowledged that I was the first one to explain and demonstrate how he did what he did, and even Mylow himself made a comment on one of my videos saying I had uncovered his "secret". So where is your evidence for your claim of having "exposed" Mylow? And where is the video I asked you for, so that the audience can judge for themselves whether or not you are "joking" when you shouted "IT WORKS"?

If this forum was not so rude I may be inclined to be of more help, but most of the responses are just full of attack. Why would I bother with throwing pearls to pigs??  If people assume I am just ignorant and a liar then why would I give anything to you? I did not come here to try and prove anything. I made an announcement for those interested about a meeting. You guys attacked me and at the same time want me to share every detail about the meetings.

Quote from: MarkE on February 09, 2015, 12:49:30 PM
Why not just do what?  In order to get to pertinent, reliable measurements we need Rick to tell us just what it is that his machine is supposed to do, and his cooperation to perform a test on one of his units.

milehigh

what makes your experience and knowledge valid ?

jon

rich,

dont tell them dick(lol a nickname for rich)
make them buy a ticket and i bet they wont have the stones to say anything face to face.

jon

Why does everyone have to prove themselves innocent here?? I am not mistaken about my own history. You may have done some exposing and may have published it first, I DON'T CARE!! lol I'm not in competition with you. Just keep your accusations to yourself. I really don't care about Mylow, he was a joke. We were in the habit of laughing at the weekly new Free Energy postings of the amazing Sterling Allan. The most humorous was the one with him comparing the feeling of standing under the high voltage lines in the rain trying to absorb the energy with his family to what it feels like to get shocked in the tub with an electric hair dryer. I personally was rolling on the ground when I read that one (but was amazed that he could be looked at as scientific, etc.). I did not take any of that seriously. And now we see what else has been going on behind the scenes...
You may have been confused about a joke or may have confused another video. It is not my burden to prove to you anything.

Quote from: TinselKoala on February 09, 2015, 12:57:36 PM
No, I don't think I'm mistaken. Let's see some evidence from you, like date stamps, of your "exposing" Mylow. I've shown you just ONE of my many Mylow exposing videos and you can see the date stamp on it. So let's see your evidence that you "exposed" Mylow and just when you did it.

Sterling Allan acknowledged that I was the first one to explain and demonstrate how he did what he did, and even Mylow himself made a comment on one of my videos saying I had uncovered his "secret". So where is your evidence for your claim of having "exposed" Mylow? And where is the video I asked you for, so that the audience can judge for themselves whether or not you are "joking" when you shouted "IT WORKS"?

Rick:

Nope, there was a scientific community studying flight in the 19th century and they were testing single-pilot gliders for years.  They were writing letters to each other.

You are still trying to play the sympathy card.  I asked you about your claim two hours ago, and you have ignored that question and many other similar questions.

QuoteYou have no way to prove there is nothing outside of your box. You refuse to open up your box to even see because of rumors and whathaveyou.

You are in a small box that is inside my box.  You just feign that you are in a larger box.  I could analyse one of your pulse motors inside-out if I really wanted to.

You have dropped about a half-dozen free energy claims and remarkable claims and you have been asked for data and so far nothing from you.  That gives you a sense of what will take place in your conference.  You will discuss batteries and educate your attendees and give them good information.  But I think the pulse motor stuff will mostly be off in La-La Land with many unsubstantiated claims made.

My impression is that a decent smart battery charger and/or a solar charger is the best thing to use if you want to use batteries for lighting, etc.  There is no practical reason for anybody to have a pulse motor.  It's just a glorified room heater more than anything.

MileHigh

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 09, 2015, 12:58:58 PM
If this forum was not so rude I may be inclined to be of more help, but most of the responses are just full of attack. Why would I bother with throwing pearls to pigs??  If people assume I am just ignorant and a liar then why would I give anything to you? I did not come here to try and prove anything. I made an announcement for those interested about a meeting. You guys attacked me and at the same time want me to share every detail about the meetings.

Hmm, I don't recall asking for "every detail about the meetings".  I have asked what it is that you claim to show, and what evidence you have that your claims are true.  As I have read your responses, you have said:

1) You wil be showing working free energy machines.
2) Definitive tests require multiple days to perform.

I have offered to discuss test methods that would show definitive results within two hours instead of days.  Nothing compels you to be interested in being able to show a such a result.  I personally don't know why anyone who actually had a working free energy machine wouldn't want to distinguish themselves from past and present false claimants, especially given fairly recent associations with some such claimants.  But, it is not for me to decide.  All I can do is observe whether there is strong evidence for the claims or not.  Unless I have missed something, no such evidence is offered.

Quote from: MileHigh
I can imagine a hypothetical scenario.  You play the "Big Dummy."   You are powering a bulb with very very short high-voltage medium-current pulses and you connect a analog voltmeter across the bulb and it shows zero volts.  You put the same meter in series and it shows no amps.

And that is not an hypothetical scenario at all. In fact I can get just those results when I connect a voltmeter across the stack of 10 neons and an ammeter in series  in the EMJ-Meyer circuit I am working with presently. Zero volts and zero amps. Yet the neons are lighting brilliantly and getting hot to the touch. No tricks either, like having the meter secretly disconnected or on hold. Just straight, ordinary effects of pulsed power on naive measurements.

So can I has my cheezburger now?

What, you object to the fact that it is neons instead of incandescents? I can do the same thing with filament bulbs too, and so can anyone else with the knowledge and skill. I just happen to have the neon system set up at the moment.

Do you see? I am not afraid to show you evidence of my claims, and all my data is freely shared in public so that it can be reproduced by anyone with the desire, skill and knowledge to do so.

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 09, 2015, 01:07:43 PM
Why does everyone have to prove themselves innocent here?? I am not mistaken about my own history. You may have done some exposing and may have published it first, I DON'T CARE!! lol I'm not in competition with you. Just keep your accusations to yourself. I really don't care about Mylow, he was a joke. We were in the habit of laughing at the weekly new Free Energy postings of the amazing Sterling Allan. The most humorous was the one with him comparing the feeling of standing under the high voltage lines in the rain trying to absorb the energy with his family to what it feels like to get shocked in the tub with an electric hair dryer. I personally was rolling on the ground when I read that one (but was amazed that he could be looked at as scientific, etc.). I did not take any of that seriously. And now we see what else has been going on behind the scenes...
You may have been confused about a joke or may have confused another video. It is not my burden to prove to you anything.

I'll take that as an admission that you cannot support your claims with evidence and that you acknowledge my priority in exposing Mylow to the community.

You certainly don't have to prove anything to me... and you also do not have to make claims you cannot prove. But if you choose to do the latter, then you should really expect to be asked to do the former.

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 09, 2015, 12:58:58 PM
If this forum was not so rude I may be inclined to be of more help, but most of the responses are just full of attack. Why would I bother with throwing pearls to pigs??  If people assume I am just ignorant and a liar then why would I give anything to you? I did not come here to try and prove anything. I made an announcement for those interested about a meeting. You guys attacked me and at the same time want me to share every detail about the meetings.

Let's review. You have been asked to provide evidence for your claims.  And so YOU and this other person respond to US with rudeness: we are trolls, pigs, paid shills, ignorant fools and all the rest of the babyish insults that people toss around when they are challenged to support their claims with data. This is such an old story that it has worn very thin by now and we are so used to it that we _expect_ it from false claimants.

Who is being rude to whom, and who is trying to find out facts and share them with the members of the forum?

    Rick,
          it's akin to selling knickers at a nudist camp! What else could you expect ?
                      John.

Gentlemen, can we all be adults?
Rich, you don't have to do anything, including providing evidence of the validity of your claims.
In my years of following TK, MH, Mark E and others, I learned to respect them for their expertise and knowledge. If heir style is somewhat abrupt sometimes, so be it; it's a small price to pay for the  obtained insights.
I am no slouch when it comes to electronics (>50 years experience designing, servicing, manufacturing) but I still learn daily from others.
Keep the conversation civil and impersonal please; stick to data and facts.

Quote from: TinselKoala on February 09, 2015, 01:27:50 PM
I'll take that as an admission that you cannot support your claims with evidence and that you acknowledge my priority in exposing Mylow to the community.

You certainly don't have to prove anything to me... and you also do not have to make claims you cannot prove. But if you choose to do the latter, then you should really expect to be asked to do the former.

Its rather that he does not have the technical knowledge to prove it. Its just a silly meaningless and non defined statement that - 'my boat runs longer because of free energy'. I wager that he would not dare to post the current SG load test procedure on this thread, as he knows it would be torn apart technically.

*eats popcorn and faps a little*
He's selling tickets you morons, asking what is he claiming?
but continue this is good
#cheapEntertainment

Jon

Quote from: MileHigh on February 09, 2015, 01:11:33 PM
Rick:

Nope, there was a scientific community studying flight in the 19th century and they were testing single-pilot gliders for years.  They were writing letters to each other.

You are still trying to play the sympathy card.  I asked you about your claim two hours ago, and you have ignored that question and many other similar questions.

You are in a small box that is inside my box.  You just feign that you are in a larger box.  I could analyse one of your pulse motors inside-out if I really wanted to.

You have dropped about a half-dozen free energy claims and remarkable claims and you have been asked for data and so far nothing from you.  That gives you a sense of what will take place in your conference.  You will discuss batteries and educate your attendees and give them good information.  But I think the pulse motor stuff will mostly be off in La-La Land with many unsubstantiated claims made.

My impression is that a decent smart battery charger and/or a solar charger is the best thing to use if you want to use batteries for lighting, etc.  There is no practical reason for anybody to have a pulse motor.  It's just a glorified room heater more than anything.

MileHigh

Desulfanating lead acid chargers are widely available for relatively low cost.

I appreciate this. I didn't realize these guys have been on here for years. I guess they view it their board and take offence of people promoting OU. I just don't really get it. Not sure what the point of this forum is then. "Advanced" electronics guys seeking to disprove OU. Fun club I guess. Anyway, I don't have time to deal with childish behavior. And like you said, I didn't come here to prove anything. I can make statements and I don't expect people to believe them just as much as I don't believe anything until I have good reason to. This is all just a place to share information. While it may be true that you guys can do some interesting things, it is a joke to say nothing is possible beyond what you have discovered. That is the mentality you present here. As for the way I come across, you have to interpret it with a big smile on my face. I am laughing while I am typing. It is all in good fun. I'm dishing back what they are throwing at me. I'm playing the game they want to play. If there was nothing in anything I have said or was doing they would have just ignored it, but instead they are very determined to attack. I know some of you demand that I spend all of my time to give you everything I have but I don't feel the need. If this "News" statement that I posted in the news category is so offensive then moderators feel free to delete it.

Quote from: memoryman on February 09, 2015, 01:37:21 PM
Gentlemen, can we all be adults?
Rich, you don't have to do anything, including providing evidence of the validity of your claims.
In my years of following TK, MH, Mark E and others, I learned to respect them for their expertise and knowledge. If heir style is somewhat abrupt sometimes, so be it; it's a small price to pay for the  obtained insights.
I am no slouch when it comes to electronics (>50 years experience designing, servicing, manufacturing) but I still learn daily from others.
Keep the conversation civil and impersonal please; stick to data and facts.

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 09, 2015, 04:25:01 PM
I appreciate this. I didn't realize these guys have been on here for years. I guess they view it their board and take offence of people promoting OU. I just don't really get it. Not sure what the point of this forum is then. "Advanced" electronics guys seeking to disprove OU. Fun club I guess. Anyway, I don't have time to deal with childish behavior. And like you said, I didn't come here to prove anything. I can make statements and I don't expect people to believe them just as much as I don't believe anything until I have good reason to. This is all just a place to share information. While it may be true that you guys can do some interesting things, it is a joke to say nothing is possible beyond what you have discovered. That is the mentality you present here. As for the way I come across, you have to interpret it with a big smile on my face. I am laughing while I am typing. It is all in good fun. I'm dishing back what they are throwing at me. I'm playing the game they want to play. If there was nothing in anything I have said or was doing they would have just ignored it, but instead they are very determined to attack. I know some of you demand that I spend all of my time to give you everything I have but I don't feel the need. If this "News" statement that I posted in the news category is so offensive then moderators feel free to delete it.

That's funny, where have I said such things in this thread as you allege?  I've asked you to clearly state what it is that you say you will show people who attend your meetings.  I would think that you would want people to know what to expect.  I would expect that if you would want them to be excited about what they expect to see so that they would be happy to pay the admission fee.  I would think that if you believe you have the free energy capability that you stated earlier that you would be happy to learn of methods that would allow you to prove that one way or another in just a couple hours right before your audience's eyes. 

Of course, if you are promising free energy that you don't think you have, you wouldn't likely be very excited about any definitive proof that would destroy such a claim.  If your intentions are to deceive then you would likely want to be as opaque as possible.

You want me to just have the meeting on the web I guess and say everything here. We are not doing a forum meeting thank you. Just don't worry about the meeting. We are making it for those who asked. We are not begging you to come or pushing you to come.

Quote from: MarkE on February 09, 2015, 05:08:30 PM
That's funny, where have I said such things in this thread as you allege?  I've asked you to clearly state what it is that you say you will show people who attend your meetings.  I would think that you would want people to know what to expect.  I would expect that if you would want them to be excited about what they expect to see so that they would be happy to pay the admission fee.  I would think that if you believe you have the free energy capability that you stated earlier that you would be happy to learn of methods that would allow you to prove that one way or another in just a couple hours right before your audience's eyes. 

Of course, if you are promising free energy that you don't think you have, you wouldn't likely be very excited about any definitive proof that would destroy such a claim.  If your intentions are to deceive then you would likely want to be as opaque as possible.

Rich, none of what you said is 'true'; that's just how it occurs for you. All are very open to new ideas; they apply rigor to their experiments and have high expectations of others too.
Again, my experience (also not 'the truth') with them is different. I interpret all posts in a very 'open' manner and am invariably polite; I get much better interactions that way.
Personally, I am doing research in alternative energy tech, but not what most consider 'OU".
For me, if all powerplants were replaced with LFTRs (using Thorium), effectively our energy needs would be met in a sufficiently clean way for several thousand years.
I just may go to the Chicago event if I have a good reason to be in that neighborhood then.
Meanwhile, IF you truly have  an OU technology, what's stopping you from mass production?

I know what you mean. But there is no way to rectify this matter now. I am guilty by past associations even though we would probably be in much agreement about such. They also consider me a liar so there is really no getting beyond that either. This is a hostile environment so there is no room for discussion. I really don't value online interaction anymore for this reason. In person people usually don't act this way and you can progress much better. Online people hide behind their computers and turn into animals. lol I don't have the patience for that anymore. I understand their demands and you guys all want to discuss everything out endlessly. That's fine. I didn't come here for that. I'm not saying that I'm holding back anything, it's just that one thing leads to another and I'll spend a month accomplishing nothing in the end.
As for the meetings it will fill up fast and it will be fairly small.

Quote from: memoryman on February 09, 2015, 05:21:32 PM
none of what you said is 'true'; that's just how it occurs for you. All are very open to new ideas; they apply rigor to their experiments and have high expectations of others too.
Again, my experience (also not 'the truth') with them is different. I interpret all posts in a very 'open' manner and am invariably polite; I get much better interactions that way.
Personally, I am doing research in alternative energy tech, but not what most consider 'OU".
For me, if all powerplants were replaced with LFTRs (using Thorium), effectively our energy needs would be met in a sufficiently clean way for several thousand years.
I jus may go to the Chicago event if I have a good reason to be in that neighborhood then.
Meanwhile, IF you truly have  an OU technology, what's stopping you from mass production?

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 09, 2015, 05:20:27 PM
You want me to just have the meeting on the web I guess and say everything here. We are not doing a forum meeting thank you. Just don't worry about the meeting. We are making it for those who asked. We are not begging you to come or pushing you to come.

That's funny:  where did I ask you to make your meetings web forums? 

You can say what you are promising to show attendees, or keep back sliding. You bemoan being painted with the same brush as recent associates.  Yet, you employ many of their techniques at obfuscation and prevarication.   When offered means to prove one way or another whether your free energy claims are true, you have become very defensive.  The pattern is all too familiar.

no where mark you truly are demonstrating your low I Q

Jon

its called news so people can know about the conference otherwise how else are people going to learn about it. no inventor can get a word in here

No I don't care about. I care more about attitude than FE OU.

Quote from: MarkE on February 09, 2015, 06:13:43 PM
That's funny:  where did I ask you to make your meetings web forums? 

You can say what you are promising to show attendees, or keep back sliding. You bemoan being painted with the same brush as recent associates.  Yet, you employ many of their techniques at obfuscation and prevarication.   When offered means to prove one way or another whether your free energy claims are true, you have become very defensive.  The pattern is all too familiar.

Quote from: jonfrommanahawkin1 on February 09, 2015, 06:26:54 PM
no where mark you truly are demonstrating your low I Q

Jon

its called news so people can know about the conference otherwise how else are people going to learn about it. no inventor can get a word in here

I better get that tested.  Some have told me they think my IQ might be somewhere in the lower 99 percentiles.

That may not be a bad idea, you already know what windex tastes like

;)
Jon

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 09, 2015, 07:07:48 PM
No I don't care about. I care more about attitude than FE OU.

You claim to have a means to produce free energy, which if true would be as significant as the discovery of fire, and yet you say you are more concerned with attitude than proving your claim?  If your claim were true it would fundamentally transform life on the planet.  But you say you are worried about attitude?  That just doesn't sound like you actually believe your own claims.

That means you're a window licker
if you didn't get it

; D
jon

If you guys wished to have an honest discussion then you would have to stop assuming the worst. Everything you say is in the form of an accusation.
I have been on many forums since the internet became generally used and I have always cared more about honesty and character and attitude than technology or philosophy. At the first meeting in Hamburg we sat in a Tipi and I told everyone that they were more into Free Energy than I was. I explained that technology is not going to make the world a better place but changing the hearts does. It can help good people be better and bad people be worse. My goal isn't for people to be rich or have an easier life, but for them to be honest and good. It may not be the right place to talk about these things here. The method determines the outcome. Deviation from the scientific method results in bad outcomes. But a bad attitude is also a bad method at the most fundamental level and blinds a person from the truth and clouds judgment. Prejudice is the big sin we all can easily engage in. What do I care about everyone having an easy life if people can't even live at peace with each other or come to honest conclusions. So no I never care about the facts in a debate when there is no peace and honesty or respect. At that point it has become meaningless. Some people believe that free energy will change the world and make it all better and lovely. Says who? So I would like to help the world become a better place as best as I can. Apparently you guys think I am doing the wrong thing with my life. lol I'll say this that I am only doing what people asked for. But I agree that it is maybe as important as fire. But being good is more important than fire. Because if we are throwing fire at each other then we all just burn  :-\ There are many different ways we can reduce our burdens in life. I am in the process this year of writing a book which will try and help people out of their financial and health bondages. To me helping people be healthy is far more important than giving them a key to produce energy. Quality living and length of days are better than self-indulgent ones. I would like to promote earth shelter homes, hydrogen systems, and many technologies to help people in various ways. Promoting battery restoration and longevity is something I have done for 8 years now, but how much more important to do the same for people's bodies?? Or more importantly their souls?
I'm not a salesman. When I sell a car I end up telling people everything about it and then after an hour they decide against it because I was honest enough to say everything. I do the same with my products. I don't push them on anyone and have often said that they are not for everyone. I wrote an article the other week on the subject so that I don't have to repeat myself. I burst the bubble. Many people talk about doing alternative energy but have no idea of the lifestyle change and expense it is to change over. Even if you had a free source, if your batteries have to be replaced every so many years it doesn't pay for itself. Someone was mentioning this. Yes I estimate these things all day long and talk to people high and low all over the world about these things. While nature may give you many different ways to tap into virtually unlimited resources it still takes work to use it, etc. People largely don't want to put forth the effort to be independent and even have such freedom just as not that many people take their health that serious. It is a fast food day and only a small percentage of people think past the next month or year about their health, their car, their house, or their relationships.
I don't personally have the small magic black box that puts out kw of power. And I mean I don't know how to make one either. What I know is many different ways to tap into environmental resources. What I have done is similar to solar in cost, however requires 2 or 3 times the batteries perhaps. So is that practical? Is that going to be adopted rapidly by everyone? No. Creating free light is not very hard. But torque, charging, and heat with these methods can take a lot of batteries. So eventually those in the past that have been extremely skeptical stopped arguing about the possibility of these systems powering such loads but argued against them being practical enough to be commercially viable. There needed to be a reduction in battery size and cost and the output needed to be at least 3 times more than the input. No matter what was shown or demonstrated the expectations became greater and greater.
When your younger you have the zeal for debate and changing the world and you think you can easily persuade people of good things. But as you get older you see how stuck in their ways people are. So yes I tire of this old subject the older I get. I didn't mean to come on here and give the impression that I was going to get into some big debate with you guys. Throw your stones at me. Tell me I'm avoiding things by avoiding to pay attention that I said the output is not from the machine but from the batteries because the batteries are half the system. Skim over my posts and fail to read that and I'll skim over your posts and not bother to pay attention. Whatever guys. I'm not playing victim I'm just not interested. There are far too many people who are open and it is hard enough to keep up with them. I didn't come to underunity.com to try and prove something.

Quote from: MarkE on February 09, 2015, 07:14:18 PM
You claim to have a means to produce free energy, which if true would be as significant as the discovery of fire, and yet you say you are more concerned with attitude than proving your claim?  If your claim were true it would fundamentally transform life on the planet.  But you say you are worried about attitude?  That just doesn't sound like you actually believe your own claims.

OK, now we can add "morons, window lickers, and animals" to the continuing string of insults and name-calling that we reasonable skeptics are getting in return for our requests that claimants provide support for their claims in the form of actual data.

Who is being rude to whom? Keep it up, fellows, you are showing your true colors here for all to see.

QuoteSo no I never care about the facts in a debate when there is no peace and honesty or respect.

You appear to have cause and effect backwards. You get little respect when you constantly dodge requests for real data in support of your claims and when you insult, over and over again, those people who challenge you to provide that support. You do not care about the facts..... thank you for admitting that much, anyway.

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 09, 2015, 08:51:03 PM
If you guys wished to have an honest discussion then you would have to stop assuming the worst. Everything you say is in the form of an accusation.

No, I've asked you a series of  questions that would be benign to an honest claimant of free energy and you have thrown up a bunch of excuses as to why you do not answer those questions.  That's been your choice.

Quote
I have been on many forums since the internet became generally used and I have always cared more about honesty and character and attitude than technology or philosophy.

If so then why do you play this bob and weave game of dodging.  If you have conviction in your claims one would expect you to want to prove them one way or another as soon as possible.  Instead you throw about excuses about "negativity".

QuoteAt the first meeting in Hamburg we sat in a Tipi and I told everyone that they were more into Free Energy than I was. I explained that technology is not going to make the world a better place but changing the hearts does.

That sounds like a Valentine's Day commercial for jewelry.

QuoteIt can help good people be better and bad people be worse. My goal isn't for people to be rich or have an easier life, but for them to be honest and good. It may not be the right place to talk about these things here. The method determines the outcome. Deviation from the scientific method results in bad outcomes. But a bad attitude is also a bad method at the most fundamental level and blinds a person from the truth and clouds judgment. Prejudice is the big sin we all can easily engage in.

The scientific method doesn't care about anyone's attitude.  So you get to decide:  Are you atually going to follow the scientific method, or are you going to just pay lip service to it?

QuoteWhat do I care about everyone having an easy life if people can't even live at peace with each other or come to honest conclusions. So no I never care about the facts in a debate when there is no peace and honesty or respect.

Well if you don't care about facts then in matters of science you won't do very well.

QuoteAt that point it has become meaningless. Some people believe that free energy will change the world and make it all better and lovely. Says who? So I would like to help the world become a better place as best as I can. Apparently you guys think I am doing the wrong thing with my life. lol I'll say this that I am only doing what people asked for. But I agree that it is maybe as important as fire. But being good is more important than fire. Because if we are throwing fire at each other then we all just burn  :-\ There are many different ways we can reduce our burdens in life. I am in the process this year of writing a book which will try and help people out of their financial and health bondages. To me helping people be healthy is far more important than giving them a key to produce energy. Quality living and length of days are better than self-indulgent ones. I would like to promote earth shelter homes, hydrogen systems, and many technologies to help people in various ways.

If you want to pursue any of those things then do as you please.  Right now you are promoting conferences where you have said here you will be demonstrating working free energy machines.

QuotePromoting battery restoration and longevity is something I have done for 8 years now, but how much more important to do the same for people's bodies?? Or more importantly their souls?

Are you changing the theme of your meetings to a religious revival?

Quote
I'm not a salesman. When I sell a car I end up telling people everything about it and then after an hour they decide against it because I was honest enough to say everything.

You say that you are not a salesman, but here you are promoting your conferences as a ... wait for it:  sales person.

QuoteI do the same with my products. I don't push them on anyone and have often said that they are not for everyone. I wrote an article the other week on the subject so that I don't have to repeat myself. I burst the bubble. Many people talk about doing alternative energy but have no idea of the lifestyle change and expense it is to change over. Even if you had a free source, if your batteries have to be replaced every so many years it doesn't pay for itself. Someone was mentioning this. Yes I estimate these things all day long and talk to people high and low all over the world about these things. While nature may give you many different ways to tap into virtually unlimited resources it still takes work to use it, etc.

That is all distraction from your basic, changes the world as we know it claim that you have working free energy machines that you will show to people who pay your admission price.

QuotePeople largely don't want to put forth the effort to be independent and even have such freedom just as not that many people take their health that serious. It is a fast food day and only a small percentage of people think past the next month or year about their health, their car, their house, or their relationships.
I don't personally have the small magic black box that puts out kw of power. And I mean I don't know how to make one either. What I know is many different ways to tap into environmental resources. What I have done is similar to solar in cost, however requires 2 or 3 times the batteries perhaps. So is that practical?

Someone else might care about the practicality of your free energy machine claims.  I am only concerned as to whether or not there is strong evidence to support them.

QuoteIs that going to be adopted rapidly by everyone? No. Creating free light is not very hard. But torque, charging, and heat with these methods can take a lot of batteries. So eventually those in the past that have been extremely skeptical stopped arguing about the possibility of these systems powering such loads but argued against them being practical enough to be commercially viable.

Maybe someone else did that.  I am completely unconcerned with practicality, and completely concerned with actuality.[qutoe] There needed to be a reduction in battery size and cost and the output needed to be at least 3 times more than the input. No matter what was shown or demonstrated the expectations became greater and greater. [/quote]Again, I don't know who you refer to.  Maybe if you could identify one or two we could seek their opinion as to whether or not they agree with your assertion that you demonstrated a working free energy machine to them.

Quote
When your younger you have the zeal for debate and changing the world and you think you can easily persuade people of good things. But as you get older you see how stuck in their ways people are. So yes I tire of this old subject the older I get.

Assuming that you believe that you have the working free energy machines that you claim to have, wouldn't that give you a powerful motivation to prove you really have what you claim?

QuoteI didn't mean to come on here and give the impression that I was going to get into some big debate with you guys.

There is little debate.  You've come here claiming that you are going to show people at your meetings working free energy devices.  It is quite an incredible claim.  When asked for details you have become very defensive.  If you want to be able to prove your claims one way or another the defining experiments can be conducted in a couple of hours right in front of your audience.

QuoteThrow your stones at me. Tell me I'm avoiding things by avoiding to pay attention that I said the output is not from the machine but from the batteries because the batteries are half the system.

You are free to define the boundaries of your claimed wundermachine any way that you like.

QuoteSkim over my posts and fail to read that and I'll skim over your posts and not bother to pay attention. Whatever guys. I'm not playing victim I'm just not interested. There are far too many people who are open and it is hard enough to keep up with them.

There are lots of people who do not think critically.  Is that your target audience?

QuoteI didn't come to underunity.com to try and prove something.

I think it is self-evident that you came here to advertise your events.

Dude! I put the announcement in the news section of the site. I didn't put it in the debate section. Get a grip.

Quote from: MarkE on February 09, 2015, 09:23:11 PM
I think it is self-evident that you came here to advertise your events.

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 09, 2015, 09:29:35 PM
Dude! I put the announcement in the news section of the site. I didn't put it in the debate section. Get a grip.

So?  Posting event notices anywhere sounds like advertisement to me.

You know, you are right it does.

Quote from: MarkE on February 09, 2015, 09:34:40 PM
So?  Posting event notices anywhere sounds like advertisement to me.

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 10, 2015, 12:32:17 AM
You know, you are right it does.

Exactly.  But of course you're not a sales person are you?

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 09, 2015, 09:29:35 PM
Dude! I put the announcement in the news section of the site. I didn't put it in the debate section. Get a grip.

So, if you believe in this so much, why not buy advertising from Stefan and place ads on here?  I am sure he could use the revenue.  I am sure his rates are very reasonable.

No?  You decided to place your "ad" in the news section...for free?  Does this mean that even you do not believe enough in your product to purchase advertising for it?  This tells me a lot.

Thanks,

Bill

who said its bad to sell something mark aka window licker (yes trolls will be called window lickers and animals and morons because thats what you deserve)

Jon

Pirate,
why dont i get paid when i post a device on here? the adds are right next to my posts?

Jon

Quote from: jonfrommanahawkin1 on February 10, 2015, 06:22:13 AM
who said its bad to sell something mark aka window licker (yes trolls will be called window lickers and animals and morons because thats what you deserve)

Jon

LOL, do what you can.  See if you can get a rise.

window licker,
well why are you so concerned about someone selling tickets to a conference, thats not even unreasonable in the science community.

jon

"OK, now we can add "morons, window lickers, and animals" to the continuing string of insults and name-calling that we reasonable skeptics are getting in return for our requests that claimants provide support for their claims in the form of actual data."

Teaslakola,
Lame name btw,
(delusions of grandeur, maybe?)
you and the rest of the trolls keep repeating the same thing after it has already been addressed. its not even reasonable scepticism. its like asking duracell to explain why their cylinders of magic make energy?
get a grip, the world is much bigger then your little insignificant world

Jon

 :P

My give a sh#t meter isn't registering.  :'(

Just as a reminder, this is from Rick's promotional material:

<<<
ATTENTION: THIS MEETING WILL GO WAY BEYOND ALL PREVIOUS AMERICAN CONVENTIONS WE HAVE HAD. THIS IS NOT A STORY-TELLING EVENT BUT A LIVE DEMONSTRATION OF OVERUNITY SYSTEMS, SOME OF WHICH HAVE NEVER BEEN SHOWN BEFORE.
>>>

A live demonstration of over unity systems?

Does anybody think that any serious power measurements will be made?  No, it will just be "show and tell" followed by a "toys for big boys" exercise.

On this forum there is a desire by everyone to separate the wheat from the chaff.  There is an almost emotional exhaustion in hearing about free energy claims like these.  These claims here are not to be taken seriously.  The conference will go forward but nothing will change.  In a year from now Rick will be promoting a very similar conference with very similar claims.

In a way it's like going to the circus as a young child.  You enter the fantasy world of the circus, experience it, and then you go home.  Or perhaps like going to the auto show as an adult.

MileHigh

Hey, I have talked with Stefan here and there over the years as a friend. I didn't really know anything about the site and just posted it in the news section as I figured some people would be interested. I guess that is a bad thing to do  :-[ lol
I don't know anything about how to get advertising on this site and it has been hard to reach Stefan lately.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2015, 01:30:02 AM
So, if you believe in this so much, why not buy advertising from Stefan and place ads on here?  I am sure he could use the revenue.  I am sure his rates are very reasonable.

No?  You decided to place your "ad" in the news section...for free?  Does this mean that even you do not believe enough in your product to purchase advertising for it?  This tells me a lot.

Thanks,

Bill

Quote from: MileHigh on February 10, 2015, 09:06:23 AM
Just as a reminder, this is from Rick's promotional material:

<<<
ATTENTION: THIS MEETING WILL GO WAY BEYOND ALL PREVIOUS AMERICAN CONVENTIONS WE HAVE HAD. THIS IS NOT A STORY-TELLING EVENT BUT A LIVE DEMONSTRATION OF OVERUNITY SYSTEMS, SOME OF WHICH HAVE NEVER BEEN SHOWN BEFORE.
>>>

A live demonstration of over unity systems?

Does anybody think that any serious power measurements will be made?  No, it will just be "show and tell" followed by a "toys for big boys" exercise.

On this forum there is a desire by everyone to separate the wheat from the chaff.  There is an almost emotional exhaustion in hearing about free energy claims like these.  These claims here are not to be taken seriously.  The conference will go forward but nothing will change.  In a year from now Rick will be promoting a very similar conference with very similar claims.

In a way it's like going to the circus as a young child.  You enter the fantasy world of the circus, experience it, and then you go home.  Or perhaps like going to the auto show as an adult.

MileHigh

why yes "we" are separating the wheat from the chaff hence why we are going far away from ignoramuses like yourself  to not have less then productive conversations on little forums with small minded persons like yourself. you see we are inventors that spend time working on new ideas, not repeating the same failed experiments expecting different results.

@ window licker

;D

Jon

Jon
I work with Handicapped children,and Have young family members
that some very cruel people refer to as window Lickers.


I implore you to refrain from this choice of words,I see Red when you post this .
No need to highlight  handicapped children in your posts,they cannot control their behavior ,
you can!!


Chet

So,anyone actually going to this conference or even  the huge one in Idaho in July? Any idea of the cost for the idaho one, I only managed to get to a reservation screen but couldn't see prices.

Quote from: ramset on February 10, 2015, 09:43:58 AM
Jon
I work with Handicapped children,and Have young family members
that some very cruel people refer to as window Lickers.


I implore you to refrain from this choice of words,I see Red when you post this .
No need to highlight  handicapped children in your posts,they cannot control their behavior ,
you can!!


Chet

im not sure if i should tell you where to stick it or give you a proper answer because my youngest son is too a special needs child but one of the things i teach him is to act as a proper child and not to rely on others to do things that are his short falls.

and there are two points that are relevant here
one is from physics, and about reality or the rejection there of: i cant remember the physicist who said it but it goes something like this:
              no mater if this is real or not, it doesn't matter, actions in our reality sill have a cause and an effect

i relate that to my son to mean that it doesn't matter what the doctor says this is what we have and we need to learn to do anything that is needed because i may not always be there and its on you to provide in my absence

and he most certainly does

and there is a new psychology definition to describe anger or discomfort or dislike :

when we as humans see a trait in other humans that we relate to these feeling, this can usually be related at some point during treatment to be equated to something we see in ourselves to not like or later disapprove of.

so the question now becomes should i ask do you have some hate in your heart your expressing outwardly towards persons using phrases like window licker?

but to be simple, the answer is no, i wont curb my choice of words till the trolls stop nonsensical repetitive responses with no practical value

Quote from: jonfrommanahawkin1 on February 10, 2015, 09:36:48 AM
why yes "we" are separating the wheat from the chaff hence why we are going far away from ignoramuses like yourself  to not have less then productive conversations on little forums with small minded persons like yourself. you see we are inventors that spend time working on new ideas, not repeating the same failed experiments expecting different results.

@ window licker

;D

Jon

I didn't even know what a "window licker" was until this morning.  Your mother wears army boots infinity.  Now I am covered.

You really don't need to play the 'enforcer' and then find out you are the 'enforcer of ignorance.'

I am not expecting Rick to offer up any proof for his alleged over unity system that will supposedly be demoed at his conferences.  It's just another 'free energy motor boat' big fish story.  If Rick wants to show that he is wheat and not chaff then the next step is up to him.

If he "doesn't care" then I suppose that he doesn't care about the tens of millions of lives that will be saved because of his alleged technology.  It's Rick's ego vs. the fate of the world.

Lives will or will not be saved whether a FE devise will be made available or not. More lives will be affected in relation to character than technology. Don't twist what I say. Promoting means to make people better persons is more important than promoting technology that makes their lives easier. And we are talking about something that is just one of many different alternative technologies. Solar is helping the world but is far from making the average person independent.

Quote from: MileHigh on February 10, 2015, 11:00:45 AM

If he "doesn't care" then I suppose that he doesn't care about the tens of millions of lives that will be saved because of his alleged technology.  It's Rick's ego vs. the fate of the world.

Quote from: MileHigh on February 10, 2015, 09:06:23 AM
Just as a reminder, this is from Rick's promotional material:

<<<
ATTENTION: THIS MEETING WILL GO WAY BEYOND ALL PREVIOUS AMERICAN CONVENTIONS WE HAVE HAD. THIS IS NOT A STORY-TELLING EVENT BUT A LIVE DEMONSTRATION OF OVERUNITY SYSTEMS, SOME OF WHICH HAVE NEVER BEEN SHOWN BEFORE.
>>>

A live demonstration of over unity systems?

Does anybody think that any serious power measurements will be made?  No, it will just be "show and tell" followed by a "toys for big boys" exercise.

On this forum there is a desire by everyone to separate the wheat from the chaff.  There is an almost emotional exhaustion in hearing about free energy claims like these.  These claims here are not to be taken seriously.  The conference will go forward but nothing will change.  In a year from now Rick will be promoting a very similar conference with very similar claims.

In a way it's like going to the circus as a young child.  You enter the fantasy world of the circus, experience it, and then you go home.  Or perhaps like going to the auto show as an adult.

MileHigh

Rick insists that he is genuine and very much unlike charlatans such as he has worked with recently.  However, from his back sliding, defensive posture, and disinterest in proving his claims one way or another, I am unable to distinguish his behavior from the likes of Bedini.

Quote from: pomodoro on February 10, 2015, 09:45:44 AM
So,anyone actually going to this conference or even  the huge one in Idaho in July? Any idea of the cost for the idaho one, I only managed to get to a reservation screen but couldn't see prices.

I believe that the Bedini conference packages have been well over $1000. in the past, but IIRC that included the hotel stay for a couple of days.

Jon
I suppose you should thank God your son is not so disabled that he can understand
and hold a conversation, [Not the case With the severely mentally disabled]
I have to say if we were sitting across the table from each other and you were aware of how I felt about this.
you would tread very lightly....


MH for clarity Army Boots and Using an example of a  severely disabled person to make people laugh ...or as an insult.
are in completely different categories


Chet

Quote from: ramset on February 10, 2015, 01:12:55 PM
Jon
I suppose you should thank God your son is not so disabled that he can understand
and hold a conversation, [Not the case With the severely retarded]
I have to say if we were sitting across the table from each other and you were aware of how I felt about this.
you would tread very lightly....


MH for clarity Army Boots and Using an example of a  severely disabled person to make people laugh ...or as an insult.
are in completely different categories


Chet

Chet, no matter how offensive the speech it is just words.  Offensive speech defines the speaker, not their target.

mark E
Quote
Chet, no matter how offensive the speech it is just words.
-------------------------------------------


Sir
this is in no way a threat ,however I am quite certain those are famous last words.

Quote from: ramset on February 10, 2015, 01:29:36 PM
mark E
Quote
Chet, no matter how offensive the speech it is just words.
-------------------------------------------


Sir
this is in no way a threat ,however I am quite certain those are famous last words.

Chet, if someone says provocative things with the intent of getting an emotional response from a target, their power is defined by the target's response.  Initially the target has control over the situation.  The target can cede that control to the speaker by getting upset as is the speaker's desire, or the target can retain power over the situation by simply remaining calm.  That is not the same as giving the bad behavior a pass.  If you think about it, why should anyone give control to another who is acting out?

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 10, 2015, 12:43:07 PM
Lives will or will not be saved whether a FE devise will be made available or not. More lives will be affected in relation to character than technology. Don't twist what I say. Promoting means to make people better persons is more important than promoting technology that makes their lives easier. And we are talking about something that is just one of many different alternative technologies. Solar is helping the world but is far from making the average person independent.

Wow,

I just read a bit of this thread.  Pretty disgusting stuff.

If someone does indeed have an electrically propelled boat that has operated for two years without an external source of power, that "might" be a great thing if it was operated for a meaningful amount of time with a given battery capacity.  A few photos to allow one to gauge the size of the boat and some usage data such as the number of miles traveled or hours operated at such and such speed this many times a month using this number of batteries of this capacity, etc., would go a long way toward drawing people to an event promoted to learn how that was accomplished.  Surely this info would not give anything away for free, but certainly would do much to draw a crowd.  Of course, any such data published and later determined to be inaccurate could put the claimant into possible legal jeopardy.

With regard to all the insults and childish name calling , I am appalled.  Jon and Rick seem to have a well practiced dialogue or methodology intended to insult and demean anyone that would question their "technology".  After reading this thread, I can only assume that anyone present at this conference that poses questions similar to those raised in this thread will be treated similarly with insults and demeaning name calling so as to quiet any dissension.  Whether or not these two believe they have some "free energy" technology, their use of insults and invoking the troll response seem more so in line with many previous false claimants.

However, most of all, after reading so many replies by Jon and Rick filled with insults and childish name calling, I find it laughable that Rick can actually post a reply wherein he references "character".  He would be well advised to consider his own. 

PW

well said, picowatt.
Mark E.: also well said; just to expand on that:
in life it is not what happens that matters as much as your reaction to what happens.

A number of the responses have been so askew that they might fail a Turing test.  The bottom line is that it is more of the same old, same old:  A big claim is offered with no collateral.  Caveat emptor.

I never said Bedini was a charlatan. When I was involved with Bedini I did not find him personally to be that way towards anyone.  I may not think of him as scientific and or having a good judgment of friends but He didn't seem to be pushing anything on anyone and was more passive. As for other people, some people come and go in this world. I have had some charlatans want to do business but have soon figured out their agendas and have pushed them away or exposed them if that was needed.
I don't have disinterest but uninterest in doing things like that online where you can't prove anything anyway.

Quote from: MarkE on February 10, 2015, 01:08:24 PM
Rick insists that he is genuine and very much unlike charlatans such as he has worked with recently.  However, from his back sliding, defensive posture, and disinterest in proving his claims one way or another, I am unable to distinguish his behavior from the likes of Bedini.

  Has anyone on here ever seen a "Free Energy Machine", if the answer is "No"
it brings the title of this thread into question?
  That's my real problem with the whole affair.
                           John.

QuoteI don't have disinterest but uninterest in doing things like that online where you can't prove anything anyway.

What you, or any claimant could do, is present your data in as credible and honest and complete a manner as possible, still understanding the limitations of YouTube and online forums.   At least make an honest attempt to do that.  If the information looks credible then you can take more steps to present your data in more detail afterwards.

But it is never done, not because it is too hard to do, but because if you (generic 'you') actually did that it would make it infinitely more difficult to fake a clip.  Alternatively, you might actually surprise yourself when you start looking seriously at your own measurement data.

Quote from: rickfriedrich on February 10, 2015, 03:23:24 PM
I never said Bedini was a charlatan. When I was involved with Bedini I did not find him personally to be that way towards anyone.  I may not think of him as scientific and or having a good judgment of friends but He didn't seem to be pushing anything on anyone and was more passive. As for other people, some people come and go in this world. I have had some charlatans want to do business but have soon figured out their agendas and have pushed them away or exposed them if that was needed.
I don't have disinterest but uninterest in doing things like that online where you can't prove anything anyway.

You don't, but I do without reservation.  He has sold false claims for years.  I get a chuckle everytime I think about his magnetic CD/DVD "purifiers" and the speaker wire gadget he sold in the 1980s that without any reference signal input or power source was supposed to "remove the distortion" introduced by speaker wires.  His free energy machines don't produce free energy.  It is all guff.  So, you were perhaps referring to people you think are even more egregious than Bedini as those charlatans you refer to having recently worked with.  It's hard to do worse than Bedini.  Perhaps you were hooked up with the likes of Mark Goldes or Dennis Lee.

Quote from: minnie on February 10, 2015, 04:16:28 PM


  Has anyone on here ever seen a "Free Energy Machine", if the answer is "No"
it brings the title of this thread into question?
  That's my real problem with the whole affair.
                           John.

Earlier in the thread Rick declared that if you attend one of his presentations that he will demonstrate a real working free energy machine to you.  He also declared that he would not be able to prove that it really delivers free energy in the time frame of the demonstration.  He has rejected offers to establish a test that would prove overunity or not from his devices within two hours.  Given that his claims are extraordinary and that he is not offering to show proof, and rejects offers to establish proof, I conclude that his claims are false.  Caveat emptor.

Quote from: MileHigh on February 10, 2015, 05:44:36 PM
What you, or any claimant could do, is present your data in as credible and honest and complete a manner as possible, still understanding the limitations of YouTube and online forums.   At least make an honest attempt to do that.  If the information looks credible then you can take more steps to present your data in more detail afterwards.

But it is never done, not because it is too hard to do, but because if you (generic 'you') actually did that it would make it infinitely more difficult to fake a clip.  Alternatively, you might actually surprise yourself when you start looking seriously at your own measurement data.

If any free energy claimant were to actually show proof of their claims, the world would be their oyster.  Instead of competing with the local traveling carnival for admission tickets, they would be competing with the likes of Larry Ellison for islands of their own.

I'm not sure if I should buy a ticket or not. The ticket for the conference is only $100/$200 so I would expect there will be lots of opportunities to buy stuff at the conference?
Are guests allowed to take pictures/videos during the conference?

Here's something you certainly _won't_ be seeing at the "Free Energy" conferences:

Thanks for reminding me about the CD Clarifier!  True quackery.  Look what I found!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ2scoTYmxk

The Bedini CD Ultra Clarifier - Unboxing and Checkout

It's done by what looks like a really good old school radio tech guy.  Parts of the clip are tongue in cheek.

Quote from: MileHigh on February 10, 2015, 06:49:55 PM
Thanks for reminding me about the CD Clarifier!  True quackery.  Look what I found!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ2scoTYmxk

The Bedini CD Ultra Clarifier - Unboxing and Checkout

It's done by what looks like a really good old school radio tech guy.  Parts of the clip are tongue in cheek.

It's hilarious.  It has "Electromagnetic technology!"  I think that is called the DC motor.  Or maybe it refers to the wall wart.

Quote from: MarkE on February 10, 2015, 08:02:38 PM
It's hilarious.  It has "Electromagnetic technology!"  I think that is called the DC motor.  Or maybe it refers to the wall wart.

I think I have enough parts laying around to replicate that device.  A few hours work and I will have saved $180.00.  I have many cds in my collection that would benefit from being spun around at a high rpm.  I can't wait to build it, ha ha.

Bill

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2015, 09:16:24 PM
I think I have enough parts laying around to replicate that device.  A few hours work and I will have saved $180.00.  I have many cds in my collection that would benefit from being spun around at a high rpm.  I can't wait to build it, ha ha.

Bill

I recall perhaps correctlly or incorrectly that the thing also had a permanent magnet in it.

Bedini has been a shameless huckster for decades.

I wonder if anyone took his device and compared the raw PCM streams from a before and after CD?

But wait, there's more!!!! From http://www.bedini.com/clarifier.htm

NOTHING TREATS DIGITAL MEDIA BETTER

"Just when you thought it couldn't get any better"

After many intensive years of research, Bedini has developed the new slim-line Ultra Clarifier "HEX- BEAM".  Now with SIX opposing electro magnetic beams, nearly twice the rotation speed, vibration dampening,  improved timing processing and LED light processing indicator. You can now expect the very best treatment available from all your digital media. The new "HEX-BEAM" extracts even more information than previously thought possible. If you are an owner of one of our other clarifier models, then you can expect to relive the experience again. We guarantee you will be listening to every disc you own as least one more time.

If you have a serious investment in your audio or video components, then you owe it to yourself to take a spin on the new HEX-BEAM Ultra Clarifier . Once in a wile lighting strikes and the effects are breathtaking, a true experience of sight and sound that truly push our senses to the limit. What if you could actually reproduce this without losing all the subtleties and dynamics that digital media was intended to reproduce. With hundreds of surface imperfections across the disk "error correction" can be thought of as "using the mathematically encoded backup copies of the data that was corrupted." Not only does the CD use redundant data, but it also mixes up the bits in a predetermined way so that a small flaw on the disc will affect fewer consecutive bits of the decoded signal during the playback. Because the Ultra Clarifier treats the polymer, less error correction is used and your listening experience is greatly enhanced.

New features include:  Six Beams, LED Indicating  Timing Cycle, Improved motor and Vibration Dampening .

"HEX-BEAM" Ultra Clarifier $400.00 US MSRP  SHIPS WORLDWIDE

Quote from: memoryman on February 10, 2015, 10:54:19 PM
But wait, there's more!!!! From http://www.bedini.com/clarifier.htm

NOTHING TREATS DIGITAL MEDIA BETTER

"Just when you thought it couldn't get any better"

After many intensive years of research, Bedini has developed the new slim-line Ultra Clarifier "HEX- BEAM".  Now with SIX opposing electro magnetic beams, nearly twice the rotation speed, vibration dampening,  improved timing processing and LED light processing indicator. You can now expect the very best treatment available from all your digital media. The new "HEX-BEAM" extracts even more information than previously thought possible. If you are an owner of one of our other clarifier models, then you can expect to relive the experience again. We guarantee you will be listening to every disc you own as least one more time.

If you have a serious investment in your audio or video components, then you owe it to yourself to take a spin on the new HEX-BEAM Ultra Clarifier . Once in a wile lighting strikes and the effects are breathtaking, a true experience of sight and sound that truly push our senses to the limit. What if you could actually reproduce this without losing all the subtleties and dynamics that digital media was intended to reproduce. With hundreds of surface imperfections across the disk "error correction" can be thought of as "using the mathematically encoded backup copies of the data that was corrupted." Not only does the CD use redundant data, but it also mixes up the bits in a predetermined way so that a small flaw on the disc will affect fewer consecutive bits of the decoded signal during the playback. Because the Ultra Clarifier treats the polymer, less error correction is used and your listening experience is greatly enhanced.

New features include:  Six Beams, LED Indicating  Timing Cycle, Improved motor and Vibration Dampening .

"HEX-BEAM" Ultra Clarifier $400.00 US MSRP  SHIPS WORLDWIDE

Like I said:  Bedini is a shameless huckster.

Last week I was looking at purchasing some alum for the purpose of growing large crystals, The supplier listed a few uses for alum and one of them was the Bedini battery.  I had never head of it, but one quick search and the info is everywhere.  Many of you may know of it, you simply throw out the sulfuric acid and replace it with alum. and behold, you now have a deep cycle battery.  I have no idea if it delivers its promise, but I won't be trying it on my car battery that's for sure.
On a different note, we seem to have an obnoxious Autistic on this forum..., May God save us all. ;D

My mnemonic memory brain has no limits!

Note the pit-land structure is a physical structure.  Notice that the pits are an elevated physical structure inside the CD.  No amount of imaginary Beams of Bedini are going to change the physical structure of the pits and lands.  CDs you can burn are a different story but I am not aware of Bedini making any distinction between the two technologies so let's start with the original circa 1983 technology.

It just doesn't compute.

Quote from: MarkE on February 10, 2015, 01:11:16 PM
I believe that the Bedini conference packages have been well over $1000. in the past, but IIRC that included the hotel stay for a couple of days.

Well 150k changing hands is not too bad for two days work. Who goes to these $1000 conferences ? Is it investors or people on the other forum?

Quote from: pomodoro on February 12, 2015, 08:30:09 AM
Well 150k changing hands is not too bad for two days work. Who goes to these $1000 conferences ? Is it investors or people on the other forum?

I don't think many investors go to those things.  A few go to conferences like GBEM.  Some of them are backing Russ Griese right now.

Who has a clarifier?

I have a few of them and I sell them, so what can I tell you about the device?

It will enhance sound quality on most CD's... Some disc's do in fact respond to treatment better than others that is an honest fact. The movements of the driver on the Non-Clarified disc do in fact display erratic movements, while playing your favorite tune until they are put in the Clarifier. There is a noticeable difference in the way the subwoofer driver reacts to the signal, it tightens up the base of the music. The base hits harder and is more refined, which means the subwoofer cleans up its movements in and out and displays less erratic movement of the driver.

Computer discs that are burnt do all benefit by the clarification treatment, they do sound more open with tighter base as well. If you still use CD's you for sure need one.

So it is not B.S.

-Dave Wing

Quote from: pomodoro on February 12, 2015, 08:30:09 AM
Well 150k changing hands is not too bad for two days work. Who goes to these $1000 conferences ? Is it investors or people on the other forum?

Where have you seen $1000.00 dollar conferences? Do you have proof of such?

-Dave Wing

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 12, 2015, 09:23:34 PM
Who has a clarifier?

I have a few of them and I sell them, so what can I tell you about the device?

It will enhance sound quality on most CD's... Some disc's do in fact respond to treatment better than others that is an honest fact. The movements of the driver on the Non-Clarified disc do in fact display erratic movements, while playing your favorite tune until they are put in the Clarifier. There is a noticeable difference in the way the subwoofer driver reacts to the signal, it tightens up the base of the music. The base hits harder and is more refined, which means the subwoofer cleans up its movements in and out and displays less erratic movement of the driver.

Computer discs that are burnt do all benefit by the clarification treatment, they do sound more open with tighter base as well. If you still use CD's you for sure need one.

So it is not B.S.

-Dave Wing

You are kidding...right?

Bill

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 12, 2015, 09:32:04 PM
You are kidding...right?

Bill

Do you own one?

-Dave Wing

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 12, 2015, 09:35:31 PM
Do you own one?

-Dave Wing

Why on earth would I buy a device that spins a CD over a magnet when the CD is PLASTIC and the land and grooves are NOT affected by a magnetic field nor the spinning?  I might have been born at night, but, it was not last night.

Bill

PS  I believe that, once you have been duped out of $200.00, you of course "hear' the improvements.  To do otherwise would mean you would have to admit to yourself that you had been duped.

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 12, 2015, 09:28:16 PM
Where have you seen $1000.00 dollar conferences? Do you have proof of such?

-Dave Wing

2013 Conference w/o lodging $400. http://www.energyscienceforum.com/bedini-lindemann-2013/#registration

2014 Conference w/o lodging $400.  http://energyscienceforum.com/energyconference2014/registration.php

2015 it is $400. for adults and $300. for children.  Their count down of available seats is at 83.  Hurry and sign-up before some clueless fool takes your place!  http://energyscienceforum.com/2015registration/2015registration.php

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 12, 2015, 09:23:34 PM
Who has a clarifier?

I have a few of them and I sell them, so what can I tell you about the device?

It will enhance sound quality on most CD's... Some disc's do in fact respond to treatment better than others that is an honest fact. The movements of the driver on the Non-Clarified disc do in fact display erratic movements, while playing your favorite tune until they are put in the Clarifier. There is a noticeable difference in the way the subwoofer driver reacts to the signal, it tightens up the base of the music. The base hits harder and is more refined, which means the subwoofer cleans up its movements in and out and displays less erratic movement of the driver.

Computer discs that are burnt do all benefit by the clarification treatment, they do sound more open with tighter base as well. If you still use CD's you for sure need one.

So it is not B.S.

-Dave Wing

Really?  And how can you establish your claims?  If we compare the raw PCM streams from a before and after clarified CD will there be a difference?

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 12, 2015, 09:39:23 PM
Why on earth would I buy a device that spins a CD over a magnet when the CD is PLASTIC and the land and grooves are NOT affected by a magnetic field nor the spinning?  I might have been born at night, but, it was not last night.

Bill

PS  I believe that, once you have been duped out of $200.00, you of course "hear' the improvements.  To do otherwise would mean you would have to admit to yourself that you had been duped.

Ok their are two camps those who say it does not work and those who say it does. You are from the side that says it does not work, yet you have never owned one to honestly tell one way or another. What kind of a honest stand point is that?

One time I purchased a used Creek $2000.00 CD player just to see if there was a difference over my used $400.00 Pioneer,  I seriously was hoping for a difference but after many hours of listening to various types of music I could not tell the difference between the two players.

With the Clarifier it is immediately noticeable... There was an immediate sound quality enhancement.

But you do not have to believe me, you are well within your right have an opinion without trying the said device.

-Dave Wing

Quote from: MarkE on February 12, 2015, 09:53:47 PM
Really?  And how can you establish your claims?  If we compare the raw PCM streams from a before and after clarified CD will there be a difference?

Do you need fancy equipment, or technique to tell the difference between an AM and a FM broadcast?

-Dave Wing

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 12, 2015, 10:01:30 PM
Do you need fancy equipment, or technique to tell the difference between an AM and a FM broadcast?

-Dave Wing

Quote

Quote
Re: New Free Energy Conferences in Hamburg and Chicago
« Reply #181 on: Today at 03:23:34 AM »

    Quote

Who has a clarifier?

I have a few of them and I sell them, so what can I tell you about the device?

It will enhance sound quality on most CD's... Some disc's do in fact respond to treatment better than others that is an honest fact. The movements of the driver on the Non-Clarified disc do in fact display erratic movements, while playing your favorite tune until they are put in the Clarifier. There is a noticeable difference in the way the subwoofer driver reacts to the signal, it tightens up the base of the music. The base hits harder and is more refined, which means the subwoofer cleans up its movements in and out and displays less erratic movement of the driver.

Computer discs that are burnt do all benefit by the clarification treatment, they do sound more open with tighter base as well. If you still use CD's you for sure need one.

So it is not B.S.

-Dave Wing

Here you have made specific claims for the "Clarifier".  I want to know what objective test data if any exists to substantiate those claims.  If the raw PCM stream of a CD from before it was treated matches the stream after it was treated, then by definition the "Clarifier" makes no alteration and therefore your claims are completely false.  So test #1 is can you, or anyone else show a difference between the raw PCM streams from before and after treatment by the "Clarifier"?

I have no lab test data myself so I cannot help you with that... Sorry. All I have is my own ears and how I saw my drivers respond to the device, as I described earlier in my posts.

I have sold many units over the course of years on eBay and not one person has had a complaint and or wanted their money back. So does that mean anything? Who knows, but you would think if the Clarifiers did not work I would have people beating down my door for their money back.

-Dave Wing

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 12, 2015, 11:33:52 PM
I have no lab test data myself so I cannot help you with that... Sorry. All I have is my own ears and how I saw my drivers respond to the device, as I described earlier in my posts.

I have sold many units over the course of years on eBay and not one person has had a complaint and or wanted their money back. So does that mean anything? Who knows, but you would think if the Clarifiers did not work I would have people beating down my door for their money back.

-Dave Wing

So what actual objective test data does anyone have for these devices?  By what if any operating principle do they supposedly  "Clarify" CDs?  If the only evaluations have been subjective, then has anyone ever performed even single blind tests?

Quote from: MarkE on February 12, 2015, 11:41:23 PM
So what actual objective test data does anyone have for these devices?  By what if any operating principle do they supposedly  "Clarify" CDs?  If the only evaluations have been subjective, then has anyone ever performed even single blind tests?

I am putting this in my own words... Apparently the laser beam of the player does refract somewhat when trying to read the image on the aluminum layer. The atoms within the plastic material of the disc are under stress and this can somewhat refract the player laser beam, the Clarifier is arranged such a way that the DC motor is connected to a long power magnet wire that is wrapped around four (quad), super pole magnets, they are wrapped 90* to the super pole magnetic fields.  I believe it is this arrangement that is generating a scalar pulsed field that relaxes the atoms, or depotentializes the somewhat stressed plastic material and this simply allows the laser beam refract less. That is where the sound improvement  comes from. That is about all I know about how the Clarifier works.

-Dave Wing

That's hilarious.

Here, Dave Wing, I have a challenge to you.  You send me 20 untreated audio discs (if you have any) and your best model Clarifier. You are free to choose the content of the discs and even to make them yourself. Mark them (Like A thru T or 1 thru 20 or something) so that they can be identified visually.  I will treat _some_ of the discs according to the approved instructions, and then I'll send the whole package back to you. You listen to the 20 discs and then tell us which have been treated.  If you are, say, 80 percent correct or better, I'll write up a stunning positive endorsement along with the official report of this blinded experiment, which could be published in any audiophile magazine of your choosing.

80 percent correct is a "C+" or low "B -" in school grading terms. You should be able to do better than that, don't you think?   ;)

I will analyze the results according to Signal Detection Theory (SDT). For each disc you will state "yes, treated" or "no, not treated" and I will compare your results to my own records of which discs I actually treated and which were just set aside.  Each of your twenty responses will either be a HIT (you say "yes" to an actually treated disc), a MISS (you say "no" to a treated disc), A FALSE ALARM (you say "yes" to an untreated disc) or a CORRECT REJECTION ( you say "no" to an untreated disc.) Other than my treatment with the Clarifier, all discs you send me will be handled identically. I can even arrange to spin the "untreated" discs without actually treating them with the Clarifier. So the "80 percent correct" discrimination criterion would require that you have a HIT rate of 80 percent or better, a CORRECT REJECTION rate of 80 percent or better, and MISS and FALSE ALARM rates of 20 percent or less. A low B- score, that's all that's required to "prove" your claim under this protocol. I won't even be listening to the discs myself, before or after treating some of them.

A completely random result, say obtained just by flipping a coin over each disc and saying "yes" or "no" based on the coin flip, would ideally yield rates of 50 percent for all 4 boxes in the SDT paradigm. A strong observer bias towards saying "yes" would yield inflated False Alarm rates, and toward saying "no" would yield inflated Miss rates. Only a true ability to detect treated discs would produce the 80:20 or better ratios. For example you could say "yes" to every disc, and obviously you would be "correct" in that your HIT rate would be 100 percent. But your False Alarm rate would also be 100 percent, your CR and Miss rates zero, and your discriminability score ( called d' or d prime) would be zero: you can't really tell the difference, and your Bias score (called beta or criterion) would show a strong "yes" bias.

This analysis allows both a measure of "discriminability" which means how well you can actually detect the actual treated disks, and also "bias" which is a measure of how prone you are to say "yes" or "no" to any disk regardless of its actual treatment state.

I will also analyze the raw PCM data stream coming from the treated disks before and after treatment to see if there is any _objective_ difference in the data stream after treatment.

This is a 100 percent objective and scientific challenge to you, I am completely qualified to do both types of analysis (SDT and data stream) and I am approaching you in good faith. Here you have a chance to prove to yourself, to me, to customers and to the World that the Clarifier works as you claim and advertise, and at no cost to you other than shipping and the cost of making the disks. I expect you not to cheat, say by treating all the disks before you send them to me.... but the wonderful thing about SDT is that it will allow me to determine, by your responses after I send them back to you with a random number of disks I have treated, if you have cheated or not!

I am willing to donate my time and expertise to performing this experiment. Are you willing to take the risk of being proven wrong in your claims about the Clarifier in a truly scientific experiment?

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 13, 2015, 01:08:23 AM
I am putting this in my own words... Apparently the laser beam of the player does refract somewhat when trying to read the image on the aluminum layer. The atoms within the plastic material of the disc are under stress and this can somewhat refract the player laser beam, the Clarifier is arranged such a way that the DC motor is connected to a long power magnet wire that is wrapped around four (quad), super pole magnets, they are wrapped 90* to the super pole magnetic fields.  I believe it is this arrangement that is generating a scalar pulsed field that relaxes the atoms, or depotentializes the somewhat stressed plastic material and this simply allows the laser beam refract less. That is where the sound improvement  comes from. That is about all I know about how the Clarifier works.

-Dave Wing

I am sorry but it sounds like you are just repeating someone else's techno-babble.  The sound from a CD is a reconstruction of sequences of amplitude samples, each sample itself encoded as train of digital bits.  At the lowermost level, the LASER reading and error recovery circuitry either recovers the printed 1's and 0's or you get basically nothing.

Quote from: MarkE on February 13, 2015, 01:17:13 AM
I am sorry but it sounds like you are just repeating someone else's pseudo-techno-babble.  The sound from a CD is a reconstruction of sequences of amplitude samples, each sample itself encoded as train of digital bits.  At the lowermost level, the LASER reading and error recovery circuitry either recovers the printed 1's and 0's or you get basically nothing.

Well that is basically what I have gathered on how it works... And it does work and make a difference in sound so how is that possible?

-Dave Wing

Quote from: TinselKoala on February 13, 2015, 01:08:52 AM
That's hilarious.

Here, Dave Wing, I have a challenge to you.  You send me 20 untreated audio discs (if you have any) and your best model Clarifier. You are free to choose the content of the discs and even to make them yourself. Mark them (Like A thru T or 1 thru 20 or something) so that they can be identified visually.  I will treat _some_ of the discs according to the approved instructions, and then I'll send the whole package back to you. You listen to the 20 discs and then tell us which have been treated.  If you are, say, 80 percent correct or better, I'll write up a stunning positive endorsement along with the official report of this blinded experiment, which could be published in any audiophile magazine of your choosing.

80 percent correct is a "C+" or low "B -" in school grading terms. You should be able to do better than that, don't you think?   ;)

I will analyze the results according to Signal Detection Theory (SDT). For each disc you will state "yes, treated" or "no, not treated" and I will compare your results to my own records of which discs I actually treated and which were just set aside.  Each of your twenty responses will either be a HIT (you say "yes" to an actually treated disc), a MISS (you say "no" to a treated disc), A FALSE ALARM (you say "yes" to an untreated disc) or a CORRECT REJECTION ( you say "no" to an untreated disc.) Other than my treatment with the Clarifier, all discs you send me will be handled identically. I can even arrange to spin the "untreated" discs without actually treating them with the Clarifier. So the "80 percent correct" discrimination criterion would require that you have a HIT rate of 80 percent or better, a CORRECT REJECTION rate of 80 percent or better, and MISS and FALSE ALARM rates of 20 percent or less. A low B- score, that's all that's required to "prove" your claim under this protocol. I won't even be listening to the discs myself, before or after treating some of them.

A completely random result, say obtained just by flipping a coin over each disc and saying "yes" or "no" based on the coin flip, would ideally yield rates of 50 percent for all 4 boxes in the SDT paradigm. A strong observer bias towards saying "yes" would yield inflated False Alarm rates, and toward saying "no" would yield inflated Miss rates. Only a true ability to detect treated discs would produce the 80:20 or better ratios. For example you could say "yes" to every disc, and obviously you would be "correct" in that your HIT rate would be 100 percent. But your False Alarm rate would also be 100 percent, your CR and Miss rates zero, and your discriminability score ( called d' or d prime) would be zero: you can't really tell the difference, and your Bias score (called beta or criterion) would show a strong "yes" bias.

This analysis allows both a measure of "discriminability" which means how well you can actually detect the actual treated disks, and also "bias" which is a measure of how prone you are to say "yes" or "no" to any disk regardless of its actual treatment state.

I will also analyze the raw PCM data stream coming from the treated disks before and after treatment to see if there is any _objective_ difference in the data stream after treatment.

This is a 100 percent objective and scientific challenge to you, I am completely qualified to do both types of analysis (SDT and data stream) and I am approaching you in good faith. Here you have a chance to prove to yourself, to me, to customers and to the World that the Clarifier works as you claim and advertise, and at no cost to you other than shipping and the cost of making the disks. I expect you not to cheat, say by treating all the disks before you send them to me.... but the wonderful thing about SDT is that it will allow me to determine, by your responses after I send them back to you with a random number of disks I have treated, if you have cheated or not!

I am willing to donate my time and expertise to performing this experiment. Are you willing to take the risk of being proven wrong in your claims about the Clarifier in a truly scientific experiment?

You see the problem is the disc treatment is only a temporary, it lasts only for a finite period of time, perhaps a few hours or more until the disc reverts back to the way it originally was.

-Dave Wing

Posted by mistake.

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 13, 2015, 01:23:26 AM
Well that is basically what I have gathered on how it works... And it does work and make a difference in sound so how is that possible?

-Dave Wing

Your assertion is based on the unestablished premise that the device does make a difference in the sound.  That requires that the PCM data stream from a treated disc is different than that from an untreated disc.  You yourself admitted that you have not compared before and after PCM data streams.  So you do not have direct evidence that the most fundamental requirement is met:  That the device changes what the player reproduces.

So this brings us to the question:  What if any objective tests have actually been performed by the fraud Bedini, or by anyone else promoting these Audio Pet Rocks?  I am betting zero objective tests have been performed.  I am willing to bet that if you send 20 CDs and a clarifier to TK you will be unable to notice which CDs get processed by the clarifier and which do not.  I bet that the PCM streams before and after treatment of each CD are identical. 

The whole point of digital data storage and transmission is that each copy is identical to the next.  A set of digitally encoded information is either recovered on the far side of the error recovery or it isn't.  When it isn't, the quality degrades very severely, very fast.  Something that operates without synchronizing to the PCM data stream cannot alter the stream in a deterministic way.  And as we know, the "Clarifier" does not read the CD.

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 13, 2015, 01:29:42 AM
You see the problem is the disc treatment is only a temporary, it lasts only for a finite period of time, perhaps a few hours or more until the disc is back to the way it originally was.

-Dave Wing

Or the marijuana high wears off.  The claims you make for the device have no basis in objective fact.

Well why don't you disbelievers buy one from my store in eBay and do your hands on testing. But make sure to actually listen a few discs. Listen to a particular song on the disc then treat the disc and listen to the same song and see if the claims are true. Repeat this process for your 20 discs and tell me what you find. I am also curious to see your results with both scientific and actual hearing tests.

-Dave Wng

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 13, 2015, 01:49:49 AM
Well why don't you disbelievers buy one from my store in eBay and do your hands on testing. But make sure to actually listen a few discs. Listen a particular song on the disc then treat the disc and listen to the same song and see if the claims are true. Repeat this process for your 20 discs and tell me what you find.

-Dave Wng

Dave are you familiar with the mail fraud statutes?

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 13, 2015, 01:29:42 AM
You see the problem is the disc treatment is only a temporary, it lasts only for a finite period of time, perhaps a few hours or more until the disc reverts back to the way it originally was.

-Dave Wing

Do you or Bedini tell your customers that up front? It's the first I've heard that the treatment is only temporary and fades quickly.
But how convenient for you! I expected you to say that shipping via airplanes cancelled the effect, or some other such cop-out!

OK, since you have a lot of irons in this fire, let's meet somewhere. You, as a seller and promoter of these items, have the responsibility to assure your customers that your claims are true. So you can afford to pay my transportation to your "listening room" and I'll take 20 discs of your choice and your clarifier to another room and do the treatments. Then there will be only a few minutes of time between my treatment of some of them and your evaluation. I can even do them one at a time: treat, or not treat, a single disc, immediately after you have listened to it on your equipment, then you can listen to it again immediately after I have treated, or not treated it. I'll treat them in a closed room, and slip them under the door back to you after doing it, so you can't see any "tells" from my posture or attitude.

If you "win" with the required score, I'll reimburse you for my transportation expenses so you are "out" nothing and you gain a positive scientific report for free. If you "lose", that is if you cannot really discriminate between treated and untreated discs with this small time delay of only minutes, you pay for my transportation expenses and my daily consultant fee.  In either case you get the full writeup and can publish it in a magazine. Or I will, since you are not likely to want to publish a negative result!

OK, now let's hear your objection to this proposal. Not willing to spend the money to get me there or risk having to pay my fee... that's fine, perfectly legitimate. It still makes you look like a false claimant, though, who has no confidence in his own claims.

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 13, 2015, 01:49:49 AM
Well why don't you disbelievers buy one from my store in eBay and do your hands on testing. But make sure to actually listen a few discs. Listen to a particular song on the disc then treat the disc and listen to the same song and see if the claims are true. Repeat this process for your 20 discs and tell me what you find. I am also curious to see your results with both scientific and actual hearing tests.

-Dave Wng

That is not a scientific test.

If you don't want to do the SDT test that I suggested, then send me two identical untreated off the shelf discs and a Clarifier, and I'll treat one and then compare the PCM data between the two with minimal delay time so the treatment doesn't fade, then I'll send the bundle back to you.

Of course if I find no difference in the objective data, you will tell me I'm not holding my mouth right, or the effect doesn't work below the 30th parallel of latitude, or some other cop-out excuse.

Quote from: TinselKoala on February 13, 2015, 02:02:00 AM
That is not a scientific test.

If you don't want to do the SDT test that I suggested, then send me two identical untreated off the shelf discs and a Clarifier, and I'll treat one and then compare the PCM data between the two with minimal delay time so the treatment doesn't fade, then I'll send the bundle back to you.

Of course if I find no difference in the objective data, you will tell me I'm not holding my mouth right, or the effect doesn't work below the 30th parallel of latitude, or some other cop-out excuse.

I said scientific and hearing tests, you do the honest tests and you tell me what you honestly find. So purchase a unit and do your tests. If you are as honest as some say you are then I will trust your evaluation.

-Dave Wing

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 13, 2015, 02:13:18 AM
I said scientific and hearing tests, you do the honest tests and you tell me what you honestly find. So purchase a unit and do your tests. If you are as honest as some say you are then I will trust your evaluation.

-Dave Wing

Don't be silly. If you want me to evaluate your claims, YOU send me a Clarifier and discs of your choosing, I will test them and send them back to you. In other words, I am calling your bluff. You are the claimant and all responsibility, including financial, to provide evidence for your claim is your burden and yours alone.

OHH, the Clarifier might be damaged in shipping so that it doesn't work when it gets to me? But only if you are paying, not if I am paying? Come on, you can think of any number of reasons why I might get a negative result.

You are probably not familiar with the great physicist, experimentalist and teacher Richard Feynman. He famously said, "The easiest person to fool is yourself". This is why a subjective listening evaluation is not scientifically valid and it has a well defined technical term attached: Observer (or experimenter) Bias. See the WIKI entry.

The Theory of Signal Detection allows a properly designed experiment to avoid and even quantify the Observer Bias effect.

Quote from: TinselKoala on February 13, 2015, 02:35:11 AM
Don't be silly. If you want me to evaluate your claims, YOU send me a Clarifier and discs of your choosing, I will test them and send them back to you. In other words, I am calling your bluff. You are the claimant and all responsibility, including financial, to provide evidence for your claim is your burden and yours alone.

OHH, the Clarifier might be damaged in shipping so that it doesn't work when it gets to me? But only if you are paying, not if I am paying? Come on, you can think of any number of reasons why I might get a negative result.

You are probably not familiar with the great physicist, experimentalist and teacher Richard Feynman. He famously said, "The easiest person to fool is yourself". This is why a subjective listening evaluation is not scientifically valid and it has a well defined technical term attached: Observer (or experimenter) Bias. See the WIKI entry.

The Theory of Signal Detection allows a properly designed experiment to avoid and even quantify the Observer Bias effect.

There is no bluff...

I will send you one of my used units, but you must also perform the actual listening tests, I would like to know what audio system you can test the Clarifier on. I would like you to do the blind tests also. And you pay for shipping back to me USPS Priority Mail International. Can we agree on this?

-Dave Wing

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 13, 2015, 02:13:18 AM
I said scientific and hearing tests, you do the honest tests and you tell me what you honestly find. So purchase a unit and do your tests. If you are as honest as some say you are then I will trust your evaluation.

-Dave Wing

If the PCM data streams are identical, as they must be then the device makes no difference, which it doesn't.  The whole idea is beyond preposterous and has no basis in theory or experimental evidence.  One might as well sell car wash suds guaranteed to improve smoother engine idle and faster acceleration.

Quote from: MarkE on February 13, 2015, 03:31:04 AM
If the PCM data streams are identical, as they must be then the device makes no difference, which it doesn't.  The whole idea is beyond preposterous and has no basis in theory or experimental evidence.  One might as well sell car wash suds guaranteed to improve smoother engine idle and faster acceleration.

Think what you will... As you never have used the device.

-Dave Wing

Dave makes a great point, why don't one of you take a unit and run some tests instead of just trolling.
id be very curious about your findings, but you need to follow the directions.

i know its incredible to think that to test an experiment you need to follow directions but if you guys have all this scientific equipment that cost hundreds of dollars why not buy one for scrutiny and run a "scientific Test"

put your money where your mouth is. there has to be some validity or fraud charges would have been filed long ago

jon

p.s. you're all still window lickers ;)

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 13, 2015, 03:36:00 AM
Think what you will... As you never have used the device.

-Dave Wing

Here is a nice if old video on how audio CDs work.  They have extensive redundant coding that tolerates even bursts of errors.  The example given is radial slots cut through the CD. Because of the distributed block error coding (Reed-Solomon), all kinds of bit errors can occur, even in contiguous groups and the original datastream is faithfully reproduced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYO6vm9PTsI

This gives rise to the first problem with Bedini's fraudulent claims that you promote:  CDs are highly tolerant of:  smudges, scratches and other surface defects. 

Then there is the second problem with Bedini's fraudulent claims that you promote:  Spinning what amounts to an aluminum and plastic platter around magnets can at most induce heat into the aluminum from eddy currents.  That won't do anything unless the plastic gets soft enough to flow.  It it does then there would be an asymmetric distortion of the plastic at the outside radius if the disc versus the center.  If the distortion is severe enough, the disc will be ruined.  If the disc does not heat up enough to distort then the magnets have done nothing.

Then there is the third problem with Bedini's fraudulent claims that you promote:  frequency signal components occur over the length of track spirals, but they are not linear due to the block error coding.  There is no simple way to get at some frequency band of the source audio material without decoding the disc.  Bedini's fraudulent "Clarifier" has no way to identify different frequency components of the source audio, nor does it have any way to operate on them.

The most basic and complete proof that the "Clarifier" is a worthless piece of junk is to compare the source PCM streams before and after a treatment by the device.  They will be identical.  Bedini has gooped up a motor and some magnets in a box, and you sell it for $200. - $300.  Although looking at your low transaction rate, there are very few people buying this completely bogus snake oil that you offer.

Quote from: jonfrommanahawkin1 on February 13, 2015, 04:11:33 AM
Dave makes a great point, why don't one of you take a unit and run some tests instead of just trolling.
id be very curious about your findings, but you need to follow the directions.

i know its incredible to think that to test an experiment you need to follow directions but if you guys have all this scientific equipment that cost hundreds of dollars why not buy one for scrutiny and run a "scientific Test"

put your money where your mouth is. there has to be some validity or fraud charges would have been filed long ago

jon

p.s. you're all still window lickers ;)

TK has offered to perform objective tests.  Dave wants only subjective tests.  Such tests hold no scientific value.  Of course you could always look into the subject matter and easily learn for yourself that Bedini's device has neither the means to alter the CD, nor the means to detect what would need to be altered in order to "Clarify" one.

If you would like to part with $1000. I know where you can purchase a gravity normalizer.  Perfect for walking on high ledges, the gravity normalizer looks like an ordinary 5 stone weight.  However it has been treated with magnetic vortex technology that equalizes its gravitational convergence with whoever carries it.  Never fear high winds on a ledge 100 feet up again!

till you run one your comments are null and void

out side of this thread ive never even heard of this device nore would i purchase one but i do use a lot of drill bits in my shop and when the"bit sharpener 3000" or what ever it was called came out, there was a long list of people like you that said it didnt work then when i went to my fathers to help him with a project i noticed he had one. after using it and remarking about the trolls he simply replied "if you read the directions it works how it says it does"

so stop b*tching, read the directions and do it

jon

Quote from: jonfrommanahawkin1 on February 13, 2015, 05:02:54 AM
till you run one your comments are null and void

out side of this thread ive never even heard of this device nore would i purchase one but i do use a lot of drill bits in my shop and when the"bit sharpener 3000" or what ever it was called came out, there was a long list of people like you that said it didnt work then when i went to my fathers to help him with a project i noticed he had one. after using it and remarking about the trolls he simply replied "if you read the directions it works how it says it does"

so stop b*tching, read the directions and do it

jon

LOL, by your logic until you've tried the gravitational normalizer you don't know if it works or not either.  When will you be buying one and trying it out?

well i have a normalizer it works great but i read the directions

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 13, 2015, 03:05:16 AM
There is no bluff...

I will send you one of my used units, but you must also perform the actual listening tests, I would like to know what audio system you can test the Clarifier on. I would like you to do the blind tests also. And you pay for shipping back to me USPS Priority Mail International. Can we agree on this?

-Dave Wing

No! What part of "The easiest person to fool is yourself" do you have a problem understanding?

Subjective tests are just that: subjective. I have offered you several _objective_ means of testing, including using YOUR ears as the sensors in YOUR listening room on YOUR audiophile equipment, giving YOU the best possible chance of demonstrating the truth of your claims, in a real objective protocol using Signal Detection theory and analysis, and you have rejected them.  Why should I pay anything at all to test your claims? YOU are the claimant, YOU pay the shipping both ways if you want me to test anything, and I will _donate_ my time and expertise to do the OBJECTIVE tests on the actual data coming off the discs. You are getting by far the better deal out of this. Do you think it's easy or trivial to get to the raw data encoded on a CD and run a reasonable comparison? I will not be using an audio system at all, I will be looking at the actual data on the disc with electronic, visual and mathematical means. All you have to do is box something up and send it off. I not only have to do that to return it, but I also have to set up equipment, extract data, run comparisons, analyze the comparisons, test again after a time interval to see if this "decay" you claim is real.... write up a report.... and you want ME to pay for shipping too? Get real, Dave.

What you want is for me to "confirm" the existence of a _placebo_ effect: a well known phenomenon where, for example, merely _thinking_ that you are getting a real remedy makes your illness go away sooner. This is a psychological effect and the only way to weed it out, separate it from actual physical effects as you and Bedini claim are happening, is to use _objective_ testing in a _blinded_ test protocol. Asking me to do some kind of subjective listening test does two things: it actually reduces your chance of a positive result, since I am skeptical that there is an effect at all, and it gives you Yet Another out, as you can claim that my audio equipment or my ears aren't up to the task.

You can easily set up and run the SDT protocol yourself, with an honest assistant to do the treatments out of your sight, if you dare. You make 20 discs and mark them so that they can be distinguished visually. You listen to the discs first, knowing they are untreated. Your honest assistant takes them into a closed room out of your sight. She flips a coin, if heads, she treats the first disc, if tails she does not. She records the result (Disc A: Treated, Disc B: Untreated, etc.)  and slips the disc to you under the door, so that you can't get any clues from her expression or posture or speech or other sounds etc. Obviously the same amount of time must be used per disc by the assistant, whether the disc is actually treated or not. You listen to the disc enough to make your determination, say ten minutes of listening: Yes, treated, or no, not treated, and you write down your result. You must respond yes or no to each disk, no "not sure" or "pass" responses are allowed. You do them one at a time to avoid the "decay" effect, so you listen to the disc within minutes of the treatment. Repeat the process for all 20 discs. Remember, you are not allowed to exchange any information _at all_ with your assistant during the test. In fact she should even run the Clarifier each time, with the discs not to be treated far away from the machine, so that any sound from the machine that you might be able to hear, even subliminally, won't clue you in. Once you are done, you can send me the two lists:  the actual state of treatment from the assistant, and your evaluation of each disk on listening. I will compute the SDT matrix (the Hit, miss, false alarm, correct rejection percentages) and I'll complete the analysis for you and write it up. Here I am trusting you and your assistant to be 100 percent perfectly honest in running this SDT blinded protocol and assuring that no "leaks" occur ... something that no sane parapsychologist would consent to in a remote viewing or ESP test, but here we are. For your assistant, you can call up the local university and get them to "loan" you a psychology student with some familiarity with double-blind experimental designs. Or you can use a friend, but you have to be rigorously  honest with yourself and with me in preserving the blinding of the test.

I am offering this self-run protocol to you out of respect. It is not formally acceptable to do it this way since there is no assurance that you will run it properly, having no prior experience with double-blind testing or SDT, and because you have a financial stake in the matter. But I'm interested in seeing what kind of results you get and your experiences with attempting to do it right. We both might learn something valuable from the experience. Different things no doubt... but valuable nevertheless. If it turns out to be a placebo rather than a real physical effect, that doesn't take away from your _experience_.  You can still enjoy your own treated discs even though you may know intellectually that there is no real physical effect. This may cause you to have to re-evaluate the basis upon which you conduct your sales, though.

Quote from: MarkE on February 13, 2015, 04:13:06 AM
Here is a nice if old video on how audio CDs work.  They have extensive redundant coding that tolerates even bursts of errors.  The example given is radial slots cut through the CD. Because of the distributed block error coding (Reed-Solomon), all kinds of bit errors can occur, even in contiguous groups and the original datastream is faithfully reproduced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYO6vm9PTsI

This gives rise to the first problem with Bedini's fraudulent claims that you promote:  CDs are highly tolerant of:  smudges, scratches and other surface defects. 

Then there is the second problem with Bedini's fraudulent claims that you promote:  Spinning what amounts to an aluminum and plastic platter around magnets can at most induce heat into the aluminum from eddy currents.  That won't do anything unless the plastic gets soft enough to flow.  It it does then there would be an asymmetric distortion of the plastic at the outside radius if the disc versus the center.  If the distortion is severe enough, the disc will be ruined.  If the disc does not heat up enough to distort then the magnets have done nothing.

Then there is the third problem with Bedini's fraudulent claims that you promote:  frequency signal components occur over the length of track spirals, but they are not linear due to the block error coding.  There is no simple way to get at some frequency band of the source audio material without decoding the disc.  Bedini's fraudulent "Clarifier" has no way to identify different frequency components of the source audio, nor does it have any way to operate on them.

The most basic and complete proof that the "Clarifier" is a worthless piece of junk is to compare the source PCM streams before and after a treatment by the device.  They will be identical.  Bedini has gooped up a motor and some magnets in a box, and you sell it for $200. - $300.  Although looking at your low transaction rate, there are very few people buying this completely bogus snake oil that you offer.

Yes people have bought them and never complained... Because it works, plain and simple.

-Dave Wing

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 13, 2015, 08:12:32 AM
Yes people have bought them and never complained... Because it works, plain and simple.

-Dave Wing

Clever Hans (in German, der Kluge Hans) was an Orlov Trotter horse that was claimed to have been able to perform arithmetic and other intellectual tasks.

After a formal investigation in 1907, psychologist Oskar Pfungst demonstrated that the horse was not actually performing these mental tasks, but was watching the reaction of his human observers. Pfungst discovered this artifact in the research methodology, wherein the horse was responding directly to involuntary cues in the body language of the human trainer, who had the faculties to solve each problem. The trainer was entirely unaware that he was providing such cues.[1] In honour of Pfungst's study, the anomalous artifact has since been referred to as the Clever Hans effect and has continued to be important knowledge in the observer-expectancy effect and later studies in animal cognition. Hans was studied by the famous German philosopher and psychologist Carl Stumpf in the early 20th century. Stumpf was observing the sensational phenomena of the horse, which also added to his impact on phenomenology.

The observer-expectancy effect (also called the experimenter-expectancy effect, expectancy bias, observer effect, or experimenter effect) is a form of reactivity in which a researcher's cognitive bias causes them to unconsciously influence the participants of an experiment. Confirmation bias can lead to the experimenter interpreting results incorrectly because of the tendency to look for information that conforms to their hypothesis, and overlook information that argues against it.[1] It is a significant threat to a study's internal validity, and is therefore typically controlled using a double-blind experimental design.

An example of the observer-expectancy effect is demonstrated in music backmasking,[citation needed] in which hidden verbal messages are said to be audible when a recording is played backwards. Some people expect to hear hidden messages when reversing songs, and therefore hear the messages, but to others it sounds like nothing more than random sounds. Often when a song is played backwards, a listener will fail to notice the "hidden" lyrics until they are explicitly pointed out, after which they are obvious. Other prominent examples include facilitated communication and dowsing.

Quote from: TinselKoala on February 13, 2015, 06:44:22 AM
No! What part of "The easiest person to fool is yourself" do you have a problem understanding?

Subjective tests are just that: subjective. I have offered you several _objective_ means of testing, including using YOUR ears as the sensors in YOUR listening room on YOUR audiophile equipment, giving YOU the best possible chance of demonstrating the truth of your claims, in a real objective protocol using Signal Detection theory and analysis, and you have rejected them.  Why should I pay anything at all to test your claims? YOU are the claimant, YOU pay the shipping both ways if you want me to test anything, and I will _donate_ my time and expertise to do the OBJECTIVE tests on the actual data coming off the discs. You are getting by far the better deal out of this. Do you think it's easy or trivial to get to the raw data encoded on a CD and run a reasonable comparison? I will not be using an audio system at all, I will be looking at the actual data on the disc with electronic, visual and mathematical means. All you have to do is box something up and send it off. I not only have to do that to return it, but I also have to set up equipment, extract data, run comparisons, analyze the comparisons, test again after a time interval to see if this "decay" you claim is real.... write up a report.... and you want ME to pay for shipping too? Get real, Dave.

What you want is for me to "confirm" the existence of a _placebo_ effect: a well known phenomenon where, for example, merely _thinking_ that you are getting a real remedy makes your illness go away sooner. This is a psychological effect and the only way to weed it out, separate it from actual physical effects as you and Bedini claim are happening, is to use _objective_ testing in a _blinded_ test protocol. Asking me to do some kind of subjective listening test does two things: it actually reduces your chance of a positive result, since I am skeptical that there is an effect at all, and it gives you Yet Another out, as you can claim that my audio equipment or my ears aren't up to the task.

You can easily set up and run the SDT protocol yourself, with an honest assistant to do the treatments out of your sight, if you dare. You make 20 discs and mark them so that they can be distinguished visually. You listen to the discs first, knowing they are untreated. Your honest assistant takes them into a closed room out of your sight. She flips a coin, if heads, she treats the first disc, if tails she does not. She records the result (Disc A: Treated, Disc B: Untreated, etc.)  and slips the disc to you under the door, so that you can't get any clues from her expression or posture or speech or other sounds etc. Obviously the same amount of time must be used per disc by the assistant, whether the disc is actually treated or not. You listen to the disc enough to make your determination, say ten minutes of listening: Yes, treated, or no, not treated, and you write down your result. You must respond yes or no to each disk, no "not sure" or "pass" responses are allowed. You do them one at a time to avoid the "decay" effect, so you listen to the disc within minutes of the treatment. Repeat the process for all 20 discs. Remember, you are not allowed to exchange any information _at all_ with your assistant during the test. In fact she should even run the Clarifier each time, with the discs not to be treated far away from the machine, so that any sound from the machine that you might be able to hear, even subliminally, won't clue you in. Once you are done, you can send me the two lists:  the actual state of treatment from the assistant, and your evaluation of each disk on listening. I will compute the SDT matrix (the Hit, miss, false alarm, correct rejection percentages) and I'll complete the analysis for you and write it up. Here I am trusting you and your assistant to be 100 percent perfectly honest in running this SDT blinded protocol and assuring that no "leaks" occur ... something that no sane parapsychologist would consent to in a remote viewing or ESP test, but here we are. For your assistant, you can call up the local university and get them to "loan" you a psychology student with some familiarity with double-blind experimental designs. Or you can use a friend, but you have to be rigorously  honest with yourself and with me in preserving the blinding of the test.

I am offering this self-run protocol to you out of respect. It is not formally acceptable to do it this way since there is no assurance that you will run it properly, having no prior experience with double-blind testing or SDT, and because you have a financial stake in the matter. But I'm interested in seeing what kind of results you get and your experiences with attempting to do it right. We both might learn something valuable from the experience. Different things no doubt... but valuable nevertheless. If it turns out to be a placebo rather than a real physical effect, that doesn't take away from your _experience_.  You can still enjoy your own treated discs even though you may know intellectually that there is no real physical effect. This may cause you to have to re-evaluate the basis upon which you conduct your sales, though.

I do not understand your position and your refusal. You will perform your scientific tests but will not also do a simple listening test. Do you even enjoy music? Do you appreciate a nice sound system? Part of the reason why I wanted you to perform both tests was to see if you would actually report the truth on the sound enhancement your ears actually would witness... Because I know there can be a noticeable difference in base tightness as actually felt and seen in the driver itself, plus the added clarity as I mentioned earlier. You see i have good judgment and have honestly evaluated the performance of the device before I decided to sell it. I have not been the only one to notice a difference, I have friends that can also easily hear a difference in the material after treatment. In most cases it is not a subtlety.

I never asked you for a report, that was your own inclusion. All I offered was the truth that the machine worked and improved sound quality, because you and your friend bad mouthed a product you never tried to actually see if it worked. That is how we have gotten here. So that said I do not feel like wasting $100.00 shipping the machine to you and back for your supposed report. If you were to do the scientific testing and also commit to some simple honest listening tests and pay for return shipping I may spend the $50.00 to get the device in question to you. But it appears you are not interested in this particular agreement as described above and here so we have no deal... At this point in time and I am really not sure of your integrity either.

-Dave Wing

QuoteBecause I know there can be a noticeable difference in base tightness

The problem is that the base brightness is not something tangible that can be seen in the PCM data stream, nor does the "clarifier" access that data stream.  There is no possible process driven by the "clarifier" that is an analog equivalent to something like a parametric equalizer or a compressor/limiter/expander to adjust the perception of bass brightness.  In other words, the "clarifier" can't possibly be doing something tantamount to digitally processing the signal to do things like the compressor/limiter/expander.  It's simply impossible.

The whole thing is wrong on so many levels.  It's the equivalent to going to one of those free energy/breakthrough energy conferences and coming back with a $75 "healing crystal."

Quote from: MileHigh on February 13, 2015, 08:50:12 AM
The problem is that the base brightness is not something tangible that can be seen in the PCM data stream, nor does the "clarifier" access that data stream.  There is no possible process driven by the "clarifier" that is an analog equivalent to something like a parametric equalizer or a compressor/limiter/expander to adjust the perception of bass brightness.  In other words, the "clarifier" can't possibly be doing something tantamount to digitally processing the signal to do things like the compressor/limiter/expander.  It's simply impossible.

The whole thing is wrong on so many levels.  It's the equivalent to going to one of those free energy/breakthrough energy conferences and coming back with a $75 "healing crystal."

It is statements like these that demonstrate a closed mind not open to the possibility that does exist outside their own limited understanding. Is it possible that the device is doing something that is outside your own very limited understanding?
Have you ever thought about that one?

-Dave Wing

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 13, 2015, 08:56:40 AM
It is statements like these that demonstrate a closed mind not open to the possibility that does exist outside their own limited understanding. Is it possible that the device is doing something that is outside your own very limited understanding?
Have you every thought about that one?

-Dave Wing

What is your technical level?   For example, in ten sentences or less, can you describe the steps that take place between the LASER reading the CD to the analog out from the phono jacks?

I am not trying to give you a hard time, I am just trying to understand if you understand the guts inside your CD player.

Quote from: MileHigh on February 13, 2015, 09:00:45 AM
What is your technical level?   For example, in ten sentences or less, can you describe the steps that take place between the LASER reading the CD to the analog out from the phono jacks?

I am not trying to give you a hard time, I am just trying to understand if you understand the guts inside your CD player.

in ten sentences or less can you describe your qualifications?

Testing the Bedini CD Clarifier

The only person who can benefit from a "scientific test" of the Bedini CD Clarifier is the seller or the inventor, because the effect is always subjective.

It will depend on the particular CD:

- an unplayable CD will not play again

- a dusty CD will play better because the Clarifier will effectively remove dust particles and even "greasy particles" if they have not become glued to the CD

So, there will be many "dirty" CDs which will play somehow better after the treatment. And if they do not play better, well, they were good anyway.

If you measured the output of a CD player before and after the treatment you will not find the areas where they play better because it will be a very local and transient effect passing by your equipment a high speed (within milliseconds) and one would not know what to trigger for.

Subjectively you will hear an improvement because some music passages which played worse (because of dirt) will play better after the treatment (because the dirt was blown off). This will work specially well which a CD which you like and hear often (because you remember much of the music and a few defects while listening).

Said in short, some "dirty" CDs will subjectively play better after the treatment because some music passages will be less distorted after dirt is removed. It also helps if dirt is removed from tiny cracks, which can not be done well by wiping with a cloth, but will work by spinning the CD.

It takes genius to invent such a device. It does not harm CDs, but for some "defects" (dust, dust in cracks, heaver crease particles from human hands) it will work. Just forget the "electronic or magnet miracle", look at the practical effect (removing dirt).

I could make many old CDs "playable or readable" again by carefully cleaning them (with a mild water-detergent solution and a soft cloth). Even scratches could be "repaired" by that. I think it is because dirt was removed from the depth of a scratch (which distorted the Laser beam more than the crack itself).

Greetings, Conrad

Dave is apparently so afraid of the results that he won't even do the SDT protocol testing _himself_! He apparently refuses even to acknowledge the existence of Observer Bias, the Placebo Effect, the truth of the Feynman quote, or the fact that there is a sucker born every minute.

Tell me Dave, do you have expensive speaker cables in your system? Do you have a Tice Clock? How about the wood knobs that improve sound quality? Do you bi-wire your speakers? If not... why not? The claims for those things have just as much user experiences and anecdotal reports behind them or even more, than the Bedini Clairifier does. Aren't you interested in getting the best possible sound from your system?

Quote from: TinselKoala on February 13, 2015, 10:29:54 AM
Dave is apparently so afraid of the results that he won't even do the SDT protocol testing _himself_! He apparently refuses even to acknowledge the existence of Observer Bias, the Placebo Effect, the truth of the Feynman quote, or the fact that there is a sucker born every minute.
......

Dave should not be afraid of any result.

All advertising helps, even negative advertising. I would say in this case "negative reports" would be even more beneficial to sales figures, because people who believe in the "supernatural" like to be rebels against "mainstream science".

So, if "mainstream science" says that the Bedini CD Clarifier is bogus, this would actually be a big reason to buy one, just because some like to rebel in a harmless and not dangerous way against "the persons who think they know all".

Freud would tell you, that we all have a "teacher complex", that we all got hurt a bit by our teachers because they were such overpowering figures in our youth. And some then like to rebel against that "teacher" represented by mainstream science. I see that very often in the OU forums. Some have a really big "teacher complex".

TinselKoala you are (inadvertently) a big advertiser of the Bedine CD Clarifier. Keep on talking about it and Dave will sell many.

In my opinion, selling the Bedini CD Clarifier is not more or less fraudulent than selling food supplements. Therefore I am not condemning Dave and Bedini, they just want to make a living.

By the way, every day you should eat a spoon full of honey with cinnamon, your health and live will improve rapidly.

Greetings, Conrad

conradelektro, selling bogus food supplements and health quackery are more dangerous; however, do you want to sit back and let charlatans do what they want because 'it does not hurt anybody (except financially)' ?

Quote from: memoryman on February 13, 2015, 10:57:28 AM
conradelektro, selling bogus food supplements and health quackery are more dangerous; however, do you want to sit back and let charlatans do what they want because 'it does not hurt anybody (except financially)' ?

No, I would like to expose charlatans.

But look at the threads in this OU forum, one can never shut up the charlatans and their self appointed apostles. Even after contradicting themselves over and over again, they keep up the silly game.

The same holds true in all areas of life. People just like to be swindled (also you and me, everybody at his level and liking). It is so much more fun than the ordinary. The "truth" is very boring and discouraging, therefore we need religion, politics, esoterica, cinema, television, story books and all the other "make believes".

Why are you here in this forum? You hope to find the extraordinary. Well, some will supply the extraordinary (as much as that is possible).

Greetings, Conrad

I watched the clip about the error coding system for CDs that Mark linked to.  It shows you how the digital bits are effectively scrambled by the error coding mechanism.

There is simply no way that the CD "clarifier" can possibly do anything.  And Rick was closely associated with JB for years, including years when JB was selling this quackery.  He is still selling it.

Dual Beam?  Quad beam?  Ultra beam?  Does that give you good, better, best sound quality?

I wish that somebody would rip it apart and reverse engineer it and then post some videos.  Typically you need to clip off the potting compound very carefully with a pair of pliers, it could possibly be a lot of work.  Anyone considering doing this should check about the legality of YouTube teardown videos lest they incur the wrath of JB.  I seem to recall seeing people doing iPhone teardown videos, as an example.

What would you find inside?   I can safely predict that you will not see any "beam technology apparatus."   Perhaps just a motor and a fifty-cent 4-bit microcontroller to check for the button push and then switch on the transistor to turn on the drive motor.  There might be a token kitchen counter magnet or two embedded in the potting compound to feign like the magnets are there to support the "beam" technology.

There is no honour in selling snake oil to gullible audiophiles.

conrad: very good points; believers rarely change their beliefs because of facts/evidence.
An excellent book on 'why people believe' is "The believing brain" by Michael Shermer (ISBN 978-1250-00880-0).
Of course, Dave has a financial incentive to sell these contraptions. They are also a form of placebo.
MH: of course Dave is not interested in objective data; that would interfere with his 'belief'.

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 13, 2015, 08:12:32 AM
Yes people have bought them and never complained... Because it works, plain and simple.

-Dave Wing

No the machine has no effect on the data stream that comes from the discs at all.  The only effect is in the imagination of the user.

Quote from: Dave Wing on February 13, 2015, 08:56:40 AM
It is statements like these that demonstrate a closed mind not open to the possibility that does exist outside their own limited understanding. Is it possible that the device is doing something that is outside your own very limited understanding?
Have you ever thought about that one?

-Dave Wing

A closed mind is one that rejects objective data. 

Objective fact #1:  You have no comparative PCM data.  You have no objective information that the disc data is altered.
Objective fact #2:  CD's encode data in an encoded, interleaved format.  In order to affect something as simple as the resolution requires synchronization and decoding of the data stream. The Bedini device does nothing to read the disc.
Objective fact #3: The data on the disc is encoded in pits approximately 1 millionth of a meter in length and a fraction of a millionth of a meter in depth.  The Bedini device has no mechanism that can concentrate energy  anywhere within several orders of magnitude of the dimensions of the physical encoding means.

You gleefully ignore these indisputable facts and claim that the device alters the data read from the disc.  You have no objective data to show that the data is altered, and no physical basis on which to believe that the data could be altered.  And the fact is that the Bedini device does not alter the data.

Quote from: conradelektro on February 13, 2015, 10:47:35 AM
Dave should not be afraid of any result.

All advertising helps, even negative advertising. I would say in this case "negative reports" would be even more beneficial to sales figures, because people who believe in the "supernatural" like to be rebels against "mainstream science".

So, if "mainstream science" says that the Bedini CD Clarifier is bogus, this would actually be a big reason to buy one, just because some like to rebel in a harmless and not dangerous way against "the persons who think they know all".

Freud would tell you, that we all have a "teacher complex", that we all got hurt a bit by our teachers because they were such overpowering figures in our youth. And some then like to rebel against that "teacher" represented by mainstream science. I see that very often in the OU forums. Some have a really big "teacher complex".

TinselKoala you are (inadvertently) a big advertiser of the Bedine CD Clarifier. Keep on talking about it and Dave will sell many.

In my opinion, selling the Bedini CD Clarifier is not more or less fraudulent than selling food supplements. Therefore I am not condemning Dave and Bedini, they just want to make a living.

By the way, every day you should eat a spoon full of honey with cinnamon, your health and live will improve rapidly.

Greetings, Conrad

Based on his eBay store rankings they have not been flying off the shelf.

I agree with Conrad.  I have actually been able to "fix" or "repair" some of my older, abused CD's by polishing the scratches off of the protective plastic layer.  This process also removes dirt and grease as the first step is to clean it very well.  You can sand/polish scratches off of the layer and "restore" a CD that skips or repeats.  Now this makes sense as you are actually altering the physical surface of the CD.

I will say that it does not improve "sound" or given freqs. as the CD either plays, or it does not.  The info can either be read, or not.  Skipping and repeating is probably a side effect of the error cancelling technology.  The sound is not improved by removing scratches, but the playability is.

I do not have to buy a device to see that there is no way for it to work.  I do not have to test something that has 0 chance of making any freq. response improvements.  Of course I am far from perfect and do not know everything...no one does.  But seriously folks, what possible basis or theory could make this device work?  I do not see any....any at all.

Bill

PS  If you live in a dusty area like my apartment, you can also improve playability by cleaning the optics (very carefully with a high grade alcohol and dust free applicator) of the laser on the player.  I do this about 1/year and you would not believe the dust that gets in there. Again, this only improves playability, not frequency response as I don't think that is possible.

Quote from: TinselKoala on February 13, 2015, 10:29:54 AM
Dave is apparently so afraid of the results that he won't even do the SDT protocol testing _himself_! He apparently refuses even to acknowledge the existence of Observer Bias, the Placebo Effect, the truth of the Feynman quote, or the fact that there is a sucker born every minute.

Tell me Dave, do you have expensive speaker cables in your system? Do you have a Tice Clock? How about the wood knobs that improve sound quality? Do you bi-wire your speakers? If not... why not? The claims for those things have just as much user experiences and anecdotal reports behind them or even more, than the Bedini Clairifier does. Aren't you interested in getting the best possible sound from your system?

Exactly.  I had a guy in a stereo shop trying to sell me gold guitar cord plugs.  He said that the lower resistance of the gold made for more sound transmission and a "purer" tone from the guitar.  Well, when I pointed out that the plugs were only gold plated, not solid, and told him how thin the plating actually was...he just said that he could "hear" the difference on his own guitar and did not really understand the science behind it.  I purchased the regular phono plugs. for 1/10 the price.

Bill

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 13, 2015, 09:46:33 PM
Exactly.  I had a guy in a stereo shop trying to sell me gold guitar cord plugs.  He said that the lower resistance of the gold made for more sound transmission and a "purer" tone from the guitar.  Well, when I pointed out that the plugs were only gold plated, not solid, and told him how thin the plating actually was...he just said that he could "hear" the difference on his own guitar and did not really understand the science behind it.  I purchased the regular phono plugs. for 1/10 the price.

Bill

Or maybe you could point out that the copper wire used has a lower resistance than gold!  The advantage of gold is that it resists tarnish.  The wiping action of inserting the plug wipes the dendrites off of tin coating making that advantage of gold moot.

Quote from: MarkE on February 13, 2015, 09:51:45 PM
Or maybe you could point out that the copper wire used has a lower resistance than gold!  The advantage of gold is that it resists tarnish.  The wiping action of inserting the plug wipes the dendrites off of tin coating making that advantage of gold moot.

Did you just say copper has less resistance then gold?
and we are suppose to take you serious?
wow

Quote from: jonfrommanahawkin1 on February 13, 2015, 10:36:58 PM
Did you just say copper has less resistance then gold?
and we are suppose to take you serious?
wow

Have you not looked this up or something?  Mark is correct.

Bill

Yes, jonfrommanahawkin1, gold is a worse conductor than copper; only silver is (slightly) better than copper.
Mark knows his stuff - you don't.

Quote from: jonfrommanahawkin1 on February 13, 2015, 10:36:58 PM
Did you just say copper has less resistance then gold?
and we are suppose to take you serious?
wow

Please look it up.

Copper electrical resistivity 1.68×10−8 ohm⋅metres - (sorry can't type the rho symbol on my keypad)
Gold is 2.44×10−8 ohm⋅metres

Guess which one is lower.

Maybe you were thinking silver which is slightly lower (1.59×10−8).

yeah that audio computer and now vaping industries are all going to stop gold and silver plating  real soon lol

its just for looks right? there is no benefit and men in black come and shut down inventors from making working devices.

pffft

you window lickers  need a reality check

jon

Quote from: jonfrommanahawkin1 on February 14, 2015, 03:38:51 AM
yeah that audio computer and now vaping industries are all going to stop gold and silver plating  real soon lol

its just for looks right? there is no benefit and men in black come and shut down inventors from making working devices.

pffft

you window lickers  need a reality check

jon

Gold is used for its resistance to oxidation, not its conductivity.  In a wiping connection such as a 1/4" phone jack used in guitar and other musical instrument amplifiers each insertion wipes the plug outer surface on the spring loaded grounding terminal.  This action wipes the dendrites from the jack surface making a clean connection between the connector tin finish. 

Quote from: MarkE on February 14, 2015, 04:06:36 AM
Gold is used for its resistance to oxidation, not its conductivity.  In a wiping connection such as a 1/4" phone jack used in guitar and other musical instrument amplifiers each insertion wipes the plug outer surface on the spring loaded grounding terminal.  This action wipes the dendrites from the jack surface making a clean connection between the connector tin finish.

Mark:

But that guy at the store claimed he could "hear" the difference...ha ha.  That was a long time ago and I know a lot more now than I did then but, even then I knew he was full of crap.

Bill

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 14, 2015, 04:12:29 AM
Mark:

But that guy at the store claimed he could "hear" the difference...ha ha.  That was a long time ago and I know a lot more now than I did then but, even then I knew he was full of crap.

Bill

Monster brand makes great money upselling people. 

I just giggle when an HDMI cable is advertised as giving clearer picture or sound compared to another HDMI cable.  Why pay $5. for a perfectly good HDMI cable, when a "Pro" cable can be had for just $39.95?  Or, you can go "Pro Platinum" for just $59.95!  Or you can buy a "biased dielectric" model for $579.  Yes, that is a 6.6 foot HDMI cable for nearly $600.  The reviews are hilarious.  Many are tongue in cheek, like the guy who wants to overclock his cable:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/audioquest-coffee-6-6-hdmi-cable-brown-black/1267646.p?id=1218245470758&skuId=1267646

gold plating has more to do with transfer of potentials then it does corrosion inheritance, because if it was a matter of corrosion then much cheaper materials would be used like chrome or  nickel   

one hundred years of audio design and techniques cant be wrong, right? but they could be wrong because they havent met you fine bunch of prestigious science folk 

why do you think gold is only on connectors not integrated into wires and boards exc.

but you guys know best and all the big businesses of the audio industry are trying to rip us off, i should have seen it coming when i spent all that money on that microphone and connectors......i could have saved hundreds and just used the one that came with my computer the sound is just the same, and all those musicians  should have know... its all the same in the end....

*sadface*

Quote from: jonfrommanahawkin1 on February 14, 2015, 05:46:41 AM
gold plating has more to do with transfer of potentials then it does corrosion inheritance, because if it was a matter of corrosion then much cheaper materials would be used like chrome or  nickel   

Nickel is used both as a surface finish on many 1/4" phone plugs and as a barrier layer for gold plating.

Quote

one hundred years of audio design and techniques cant be wrong, right? but they could be wrong because they havent met you fine bunch of prestigious science folk 

If you had researched you would have answered your own question and corrected your misconception.

Quote

why do you think gold is only on connectors not integrated into wires and boards exc.

Gold over electroless nickel is a common PCB surface finish for equipment that has to last.  Soldermask over bare copper and tin, or silver finishes are common on low cost consumer goods that don't have a long life expectancy.

Quote

but you guys know best and all the big businesses of the audio industry are trying to rip us off, i should have seen it coming when i spent all that money on that microphone and connectors......i could have saved hundreds and just used the one that came with my computer the sound is just the same, and all those musicians  should have know... its all the same in the end....

$579. for a 6' HDMI cable is very strong evidence that at least some in the industry try to fleece the gullible.

Quote

*sadface*

im not even going to justify that with a response .....your just dumb

from Bestbuy:
AudioQuest - Coffee 6.6' HDMI Cable - Brown/Black
Model: 65-081-03 SKU: 1267646 Customer Rating:  4.6  (16 customer reviews)
$695.99
$700!!!!
Correction, Mark. In the CNC field, all pcb's use just solder resist over copper ; these are industrial boards' I have designed many boards and sell the products; never use gold plating for traces.

Correction: you can spend much more:
AudioQuest - Coffee 39.4' HDMI Cable - White
Model: 65-082-09 SKU: 1267764
From our expanded online assortment; compatible with most HDMI-enabled devices; silver-plated long-grain copper conductors; Dielectric-Bias System; audio return channel enabled
   4.7  (34 Reviews)
Check Shipping & Availability
$2,200.99

Go to Amazon and you'll find:

AudioQuest Diamond 16m (52.49 feet) Braided HDMI Cable
by Audioquest
$13,499.75
Only 4 left in stock - order soon.
FREE Shipping
3.6 out of 5 stars 49

you do get free shipping to reduce the pain...

In my opinion this is an example where it may make sense for government to step in.  Not for the price issue, but to stop false claims being promoted and advertised.

I have never heard of "dielectric bias" and suspect that it is a junk term.

Another term that may be physically true, "long-grain copper" but it still does not mean anything in the scheme of things.

Claims for superior audio and video will of course be false.

So a government consumer watchdog would make sense here.  Unfortunately the resources available dictate that you can't test everything and hold everybody accountable.  Suffice to say that there is a lot of junk out there.

It kind of reminds me of the bad old days of tube TVs and how unscrupulous TV repair shops would rip off people.  People with no shame stealing from widows on fixed pensions, etc.

Bedini is in the same boat as the $600 HDMI cable makers with the "CD 'clarifier.'"

Made in Germany - Mercedes-Benz W121BII W 121 B II 190SL 190 SL DASH CLOCK WATCH
 Watch
US $595.00

 Brand: unbranded
Manufacturer: ARISTO-VOLLMER GmbH, Germany
Case: Polished Stainless Steel - Ø 43 mm x 12 mm
Movement: ETA 2824-2 Swiss Automatic
Indication: Hrs. Min. Sec. Date
Dial: Replica of Mercedes-Benz "Roadster" Dashboard Clocks - W121BII - W 121 B II - R121 - R 121 - 190SL - 190 SL (SL = Sport Light)
Crystal: Slightly domed K1 Hardened Mineral Glass
Case Back: K1 Hardened Mineral Glass
Case Back Signature: MADE IN GERMANY - SAPHIRGLAS - STAINLESS STEEL - 5 ATM
Water Resistant: 5 ATM - ISO 2281
Lug Width: 22 mm
Watch Band: Leather Strap or Bracelet
Watch Band: Leather Strap (for bracelet version see our ebay-Shop )
Buckle: Tang Buckle Steel
Movement: ETA 2824-2
   
SWISS MADE Automatic Winding (Self-Winding) Mechanical Movement
11½´´´
H 4,6 mm
Ø 25,60 mm
Hours, minutes, sweep second
Self-winding mechanism with ball bearing
Date, corrector
Stop second device
Regulator system ETACHRON and regulator corrector
28.800 vibrations per hour; 4 Hz
25 Jewels


What? It doesn't apply? ! I thought we were posting products that cost more then a normal person would spend.  :o

But I do think they use gold lmao

#morons

Jon

Quote from: MileHigh on February 14, 2015, 11:37:50 AM
In my opinion this is an example where it may make sense for government to step in.  Not for the price issue, but to stop false claims being promoted and advertised.

I have never heard of "dielectric bias" and suspect that it is a junk term.

Another term that may be physically true, "long-grain copper" but it still does not mean anything in the scheme of things.

Claims for superior audio and video will of course be false.

So a government consumer watchdog would make sense here.  Unfortunately the resources available dictate that you can't test everything and hold everybody accountable.  Suffice to say that there is a lot of junk out there.

It kind of reminds me of the bad old days of tube TVs and how unscrupulous TV repair shops would rip off people.  People with no shame stealing from widows on fixed pensions, etc.

Bedini is in the same boat as the $600 HDMI cable makers with the "CD 'clarifier.'"

As long as the customers _believe_ that they are hearing improvements, there is no reason for any government regulators to step in. After all, according to those customers, the products work as advertised! And if someone doesn't hear the improvement, then there are always the "moneyback guarantees" offered by the manufacturers and vendors, who can afford to take back a few "defective" items because they make such high profits from the "satisfied" customers. In the audiophile industry, it's almost a "perfect crime" because the people who are being ripped off don't even realize it and aren't likely to complain about being suckered even when they do finally do a real, blinded "A-B" test as it's called. Who is going to admit that their three thousand dollar speaker wires don't actually make a perceptible difference in an objective test? Or that a 300 dollar wooden volume control knob doesn't really affect anything?

It's a well known effect in the field of Social Psychology that the more you pay for something, the more you value it. You can even manipulate how people value things or attitudes or opinions by getting them to write positive or negative reviews. No matter how they feel initially, even if they have absolutely no experience with the product at all,  if you pay someone a few dollars to write a positive review of something, and then later ask them honestly to evaluate it, they will give it a higher rating, and the reverse happens if you pay them to write a negative review. Charging someone a high price for a product has the same effect.

Quote from: memoryman on February 14, 2015, 11:23:46 AM
Correction: you can spend much more:
AudioQuest - Coffee 39.4' HDMI Cable - White
Model: 65-082-09 SKU: 1267764
From our expanded online assortment; compatible with most HDMI-enabled devices; silver-plated long-grain copper conductors; Dielectric-Bias System; audio return channel enabled
   4.7  (34 Reviews)
Check Shipping & Availability
$2,200.99

Go to Amazon and you'll find:

AudioQuest Diamond 16m (52.49 feet) Braided HDMI Cable
by Audioquest
$13,499.75
Only 4 left in stock - order soon.
FREE Shipping
3.6 out of 5 stars 49

you do get free shipping to reduce the pain...

I intentionally did not go into the long cables because the extended length offers some value proposition to someone who needs it.  6' to 10' HDMI cables are commonplace, so that is why I listed the 6.6' cable.  A friend of mine told me about some speaker cables that were something like $45,000. each.  One can buy a pretty nice car complete with a pretty nice sound system in it for that kind of money.  I don't remember off hand whether the $45,000. was wire for just one speaker, or two.

Quote from: TinselKoala on February 15, 2015, 06:30:35 AM
As long as the customers _believe_ that they are hearing improvements, there is no reason for any government regulators to step in. After all, according to those customers, the products work as advertised! And if someone doesn't hear the improvement, then there are always the "moneyback guarantees" offered by the manufacturers and vendors, who can afford to take back a few "defective" items because they make such high profits from the "satisfied" customers. In the audiophile industry, it's almost a "perfect crime" because the people who are being ripped off don't even realize it and aren't likely to complain about being suckered even when they do finally do a real, blinded "A-B" test as it's called. Who is going to admit that their three thousand dollar speaker wires don't actually make a perceptible difference in an objective test? Or that a 300 dollar wooden volume control knob doesn't really affect anything?

It's a well known effect in the field of Social Psychology that the more you pay for something, the more you value it. You can even manipulate how people value things or attitudes or opinions by getting them to write positive or negative reviews. No matter how they feel initially, even if they have absolutely no experience with the product at all,  if you pay someone a few dollars to write a positive review of something, and then later ask them honestly to evaluate it, they will give it a higher rating, and the reverse happens if you pay them to write a negative review. Charging someone a high price for a product has the same effect.

This agrees totally with what I posted earlier in this topic.  If you get ripped off...it is much easier to not admit that to yourself and...yes...you can actually hear the "difference."  These con artists rely on this human condition.  I would be embarrassed to admit to anyone if I paid $600 (much less $30,000) and could not tell the difference.  Subconsciously, I would indeed hear an "improvement'.  Even if I didn't, how could I ever ask for my money back?

I disagree that the government should get involved, they are already way too involved in our daily lives.  Buyer beware.  There is always the option of taking them to civil court but...that could be sticky if they provided acoustic "experts" that can "hear" the difference.

Wooden knobs?  Really?  I had not heard of that one.  What's next?  Cans of nitrogen that you spray into the room around your stereo to "purify" the air around the components to get better sound?

Bill

You think the wooden knobs are incredible? Look up "Tice Clock" .....

:o

Quote from: TinselKoala on February 15, 2015, 05:17:34 PM
You think the wooden knobs are incredible? Look up "Tice Clock" .....

:o

Wow!  Quoted below from a Google search...


"This clock is a basic LED digital clock, substantially identical to a $30 clock sold by Radio Shack. But George Tice sells this for $270. He makes some very lavish claims that by plugging this clock into your audio amplifier's main 115-V power socket, the clock will make all your audio equipment sound much better—that is, if you have a "Golden Ear." However, if you can't hear any difference, then you're admitting that you don't have a Golden Ear—that you have only limited auditory capability to appreciate the BEST in audio."

http://electronicdesign.com/lighting/whats-all-hoax-stuff-anyhow (http://electronicdesign.com/lighting/whats-all-hoax-stuff-anyhow)


This is amazing.  It follows a lot of the same things we have seen here.  If you can't see free energy in this device, it is because you are too stupid to see it...etc.  So, if you can't hear the difference that the CD device makes, then your ear is not trained enough.  Thanks for the $200.00.

I find it hard to wrap my mind around this.  We should start a topic here on stereo scams.  These scammers know no bounds it seems.

Bill

That suggests a thought experiment about the ultimate obsessive audiophile.  He discovers one day when listing to his $150,000 sound system that he has perfectly flat 20-20,000 Hz frequency response when he sits in his sweet spot in a certain way.  From that day on he never moves a single thing in his listening room and has to wear the same clothes and sit in exactly the same position and not move a muscle in order to achieve the totally flat listening experience.  He even has an earwax meter.

Or, you can just go to a club and listen to a live band and you have 100% absolutely true, absolutely perfect fidelity for the price of admission and a few beers.   :D

Neil Young promotes the hi-def audio Pono player for $400 but I am really not feeling it.  I suspect that the venture will go belly-up in a year or two.

Here is a fun little documentary about Greek audiophiles including a magnetically suspended turntable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs1aUws0Lrs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs1aUws0Lrs)

The Kill-a-Watt meter for the turntable shows zero watts power consumption.  I swear.

You can make your own Tice Clock by immersing the Radio Shack clock in liquid nitrogen for a few minutes. I am not kidding.

Quote from: MileHigh on February 15, 2015, 06:36:52 PM
That suggests a thought experiment about the ultimate obsessive audiophile.  He discovers one day when listing to his $150,000 sound system that he has perfectly flat 20-20,000 Hz frequency response when he sits in his sweet spot in a certain way.  From that day on he never moves a single thing in his listening room and has to wear the same clothes and sit in exactly the same position and not move a muscle in order to achieve the totally flat listening experience.  He even has an earwax meter.

Or, you can just go to a club and listen to a live band and you have 100% absolutely true, absolutely perfect fidelity for the price of admission and a few beers.   :D

Neil Young promotes the hi-def audio Pono player for $400 but I am really not feeling it.  I suspect that the venture will go belly-up in a year or two.

Here is a fun little documentary about Greek audiophiles including a magnetically suspended turntable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs1aUws0Lrs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs1aUws0Lrs)

The Kill-a-Watt meter for the turntable shows zero watts power consumption.  I swear.

But, having played in live bands for many years, I can tell you that the sound is not always perfect.  We had a "sound man" centered in the room running the mix but, since we only played a venue 1-2 nights...by the time we got the sound right...we were moving on.  Of course, this is for the "mix",(blend) you are right about the fidelity, that does not change.

But, if you listened to us wearing an aluminum tie pin, you got much better sound than anyone else. (grin)

Bill

Greetings everyone. We had some good meetings in Hamburg, Great Britain and Chicago. We have organized another Renaissance Charge convention workshop on August 15th and 16th at the Fort Lauderdale Renaissance Port Cruise Hotel. Not only will you see these fascinating motors of the future, but you are invited to build one with like-minded people. This is not a story-telling event but a live demonstration of overunity systems, some of which have never been shown before. Your theoretic questions about the quantum vacuum will also be answered. Time will be given to answer your practical application questions. Participate in this historic event featuring our cutting edge alternative energy Tesla technology.
http://www.r-charge.net/Aug-15-16-2015-Quantum-Energy-Tesla-Technology-Free-Energy-of-the-Future-Convention-Workshop_p_261.html

Quote from: rickfriedrich on January 05, 2015, 08:45:12 PM
Renaissance Charge r-charge.com is having Free Energy meetings and Workshops near Hamburg Germany (Jan 23-24) and Chicago USA (Mar 6-7). For the first time Michael Stroh of Strohmedia will partner up with Renaissance and explain the physics of what is happening in the free energy motor generators we will be running and building. And when you know what is going on it will help you to make it work for you. After ten years in this research we really haven't found anyone in the USA who has been able to give this kind of insight. Michael will also demonstrate some advanced applications of these motors that will simply amaze anyone.
We will show the battery chargers that allow you to restore your useless batteries and keep your good ones. We will show the new DualPole Motor Energizers, including the 10 coiler. The new mosfet driven and hall triggered mini DualPole kit will be demonstrated with a large fan and generator coils as the mechanical load, while powering bright lights and charging batteries. The large 12" Industrial magnet motor, similar to the one that drove our large boat for free, will be displayed as well. Come and witness a demonstration of free light and free heat while charging batteries.
We invite you to come to these meetings:
To learn about cutting edge technology that actually is changing the world.
To meet other like-minded people and make personal and business connections.
To participate in workshops where we build these systems together the right way.
To have lots of fun and to be amazed!!

The Hamburg meetings are being held at the Sunderhof where the lodging is very affordable. There are lots of rooms available. We held meetings there a few months ago and we found it to be a great place.
http://www.r-charge.net/Conventions_c_27.html

Looking forward to seeing some of you for the first time.
Rick Friedrich
Renaissance Charge, LLC.

Here are some things you won't see at that conference or convention:

A self-looping motor-generator system that does not use any batteries
A Clarke-Hess power analyzer being used to monitor input and output
A presenter that runs his/her home on the "free energy" produced by their invention
A truly water-powered automobile
A daisy-chain of identical, no-battery free energy devices, each one running off of the output of the earlier one in the chain, and powering a real load

Quote from: TinselKoala on July 28, 2015, 10:34:19 AM
Here are some things you won't see at that conference or convention:

A self-looping motor-generator system that does not use any batteries
A Clarke-Hess power analyzer being used to monitor input and output
A presenter that runs his/her home on the "free energy" produced by their invention
A truly water-powered automobile
A daisy-chain of identical, no-battery free energy devices, each one running off of the output of the earlier one in the chain, and powering a real load

I agree but I'd like to enccourage events just to meet up with blokes and exchange ideas. I can't make that one though.

The sound of one hand clapping:

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Free_Energy_Blog:2015:07:10#Rick_Friedrich_gives_Convention_Teaser_showing_.22DualPole_30_Coiler_2_Fets_Overunity.22

Quote from: Jimboot on July 28, 2015, 10:38:54 AM
I agree but I'd like to enccourage events just to meet up with blokes and exchange ideas. I can't make that one though.

Absolutely. But let's not let _False Advertising_ be the reason why people do come to those events.

There will not be a single genuine Free Energy/Overunity device shown at that event. There _will_ be battery-powered "self loopers" that can't have the battery disconnected; there will be "self-charging" systems that can't be daisy-chained; there will be mismeasurements and improper use of test equipment; there will be false claims and overgeneralizations made; there will be people using the name of Tesla, whose claims would make Nikola Tesla roll in his grave. There will be people _selling_ plans, instructions and perhaps even kits that purport to teach what the sellers themselves cannot do.

Will there be a demonstration of the self-running QEG from HopeGirl and stepdaddy James Robitaille, or from any of the "seventy" builders groups who have spent thousands of dollars on their "guaranteed" self-runners? Of course not.

Quote from: rickfriedrich on July 28, 2015, 09:22:06 AM
Greetings everyone. We had some good meetings in Hamburg, Great Britain and Chicago. We have organized another Renaissance Charge convention workshop on August 15th and 16th at the Fort Lauderdale Renaissance Port Cruise Hotel. Not only will you see these fascinating motors of the future, but you are invited to build one with like-minded people. This is not a story-telling event but a live demonstration of overunity systems, some of which have never been shown before. Your theoretic questions about the quantum vacuum will also be answered. Time will be given to answer your practical application questions. Participate in this historic event featuring our cutting edge alternative energy Tesla technology.
http://www.r-charge.net/Aug-15-16-2015-Quantum-Energy-Tesla-Technology-Free-Energy-of-the-Future-Convention-Workshop_p_261.html

Please define what you mean by an "overunity system" as it will be demonstrated.  Will the devices output more energy than it takes to run thm without discharging an internal energy store?  Will attendees be provided with all technical details required to produce their own working "overunity systems" as you define them?

Quote from: MarkE on July 28, 2015, 02:05:18 PM
Please define what you mean by an "overunity system" as it will be demonstrated.  Will the devices output more energy than it takes to run thm without discharging an internal energy store?  Will attendees be provided with all technical details required to produce their own working "overunity systems" as you define them?

Mark:

Please note that he typed "systems" plural.  So, to me, that would mean more than one....right?  I mean, just one would be truly amazing and game changing but, no, there will be multiple overunity systems.  Or at least, I suppose, more than one which would mean two overunity systems at the minimum.  I wonder if the Nobel Prize folks will be attending?

Quote from: rickfriedrich on Today at 08:22:06 AM (http://overunity.com/15366/new-free-energy-conferences-in-hamburg-and-chicago/msg457573/#msg457573)Greetings everyone. We had some good meetings in Hamburg, Great Britain and Chicago. We have organized another Renaissance Charge convention workshop on August 15th and 16th at the Fort Lauderdale Renaissance Port Cruise Hotel. Not only will you see these fascinating motors of the future, but you are invited to build one with like-minded people. This is not a story-telling event but a live demonstration of overunity systems, some of which have never been shown before. Your theoretic questions about the quantum vacuum will also be answered. Time will be given to answer your practical application questions. Participate in this historic event featuring our cutting edge alternative energy Tesla technology.
http://www.r-charge.net/Aug-15-16-2015-Quantum-Energy-Tesla-Technology-Free-Energy-of-the-Future-Convention-Workshop_p_261.html (http://www.r-charge.net/Aug-15-16-2015-Quantum-Energy-Tesla-Technology-Free-Energy-of-the-Future-Convention-Workshop_p_261.html)



Bill

You can't make this stuff up, it's just too hilarious.

Quote from: TinselKoala on July 28, 2015, 08:23:15 PM
You can't make this stuff up, it's just too hilarious.

It would only have been funnier if in an effort to save cargo fees he strapped the lead acid batteries to himself and attempted to go through security that way.

Here's something you won't see on Overunity.com, people believing in overunity.  ??? Instead you see trolls with every attack and assumption.

Quote from: TinselKoala on July 28, 2015, 01:17:25 PM
Absolutely. But let's not let _False Advertising_ be the reason why people do come to those events.

There will not be a single genuine Free Energy/Overunity device shown at that event. There _will_ be battery-powered "self loopers" that can't have the battery disconnected; there will be "self-charging" systems that can't be daisy-chained; there will be mismeasurements and improper use of test equipment; there will be false claims and overgeneralizations made; there will be people using the name of Tesla, whose claims would make Nikola Tesla roll in his grave. There will be people _selling_ plans, instructions and perhaps even kits that purport to teach what the sellers themselves cannot do.

Will there be a demonstration of the self-running QEG from HopeGirl and stepdaddy James Robitaille, or from any of the "seventy" builders groups who have spent thousands of dollars on their "guaranteed" self-runners? Of course not.

Quote from: rickfriedrich on July 29, 2015, 08:08:07 AM
Here's something you won't see on Overunity.com, people believing in overunity.  ??? Instead you see trolls with every attack and assumption.

You and I have both made some specific statements about what will and won't be shown at your event. These are recorded here in this thread and in other threads. It won't be long before everybody who cares can see which of us is correct in our statements.

Sir
we have friends close to your event who are involved in similar research that may be able to attend ,I will be discussing this with
"finance" to see if its in OUR budget, I truly don't see any issues at this time ,however to soon to say for sure.
respectfully
Chet K

Quote from: rickfriedrich on July 29, 2015, 08:08:07 AM
Here's something you won't see on Overunity.com, people believing in overunity.  ??? Instead you see trolls with every attack and assumption.

Why is belief a factor in what you will or will not be demonstrating?  What are you going to do if someone relies on what you have advertised here to make an admission purchase and finds out that their idea of an "overunity system" is something that powers itself, but find that is not what you present?  Do you want them to be upset and file a consumer fraud complaint against you?

    rickfriedrich,
                  you can easily put members of OU.com to shame, all you
have to do is to scoop the OU.com prize with one of your machines.
   I don't think anyone will doubt you if you do that simple little thing!
                John.

Pull one of these out of your bag at the event and watch what happens:

Quote from: TinselKoala on July 29, 2015, 04:59:30 PM
Pull one of these out of your bag at the event and watch what happens:

Obviously the circuit layout inside the Clarke Hess upsets the polarization vectors in the free energy machine.

Quote from: TinselKoala on July 29, 2015, 04:59:30 PM
Pull one of these out of your bag at the event and watch what happens:

One of those will most likely not be allowed as using it to measure anything will change the circuit so dramatically that it will no longer work.  (See Heisenberg uncertainty principle)  Just ignore the batteries and have a good time at the show.

Bill

I think it would be interesting to take one around to each electrical OU claimant's booth and offer to do a free confirmation check, live on video. How many of them would welcome the chance to prove their claims, and how many would hem and haw and find some reason to refuse the test? Of the first group, how many would respect the veracity of a null result, and how many would resort to rationalizations like those above, to explain away the null result from a proper I-O measurement?

Ah... but what about a _positive_ result? What if an instrument like the C-H, properly used and in calibration, shows a truly greater Out than In? Would the MiBs step in right away to suppress everything, steal the prototype and set fire to the lab notes? Confiscate the video tape? (Whaaaat? Tape???) Or would there at least be time enough to go grab some lunch first?

If the result is positive you wouldn't need any lunch would you, you could survive on the free lunch of OU energy.

..

People have brought whatever meters they have wanted to bring to the meetings and put them on the machines to their own satisfaction. We are not against them. They have purpose. Some of these meters could be destroyed if connected to the output so one must experiment at their own risk. We are showing at least three different types of energy including zero point...

Quote from: TinselKoala on July 29, 2015, 04:59:30 PM
Pull one of these out of your bag at the event and watch what happens:

Quote from: rickfriedrich on July 30, 2015, 06:48:35 PM
People have brought whatever meters they have wanted to bring to the meetings and put them on the machines to their own satisfaction. We are not against them. They have purpose. Some of these meters could be destroyed if connected to the output so one must experiment at their own risk. We are showing at least three different types of energy including zero point...

Has anyone connected an actual power analyzer and concluded that any of your devices are working overunity machines?

Thousands of people have hooked up every instrument you can think of to these machines to do every kind of testing. We also use them for other purposes than energy as well. But yes, obviously. Our customers are from every walk of life. From every kind of professor, electrical, mechanical engineer, the military, the biggest companies, to Joe Shmo hobbyist. These people often buy several machines over several years and they are satisfied with what they are using them for. I provide a service to people who ask for these things. I never started this because I had an idea to sell anything. People on forums cursed me out because I did not provide kits for them so eventually I did. I figured out everything I needed and wanted to know within 6 months of research. Then because people asked for something I gave them exactly what they asked for. They asked for seconds and thirds and more and more people asked. So don't give me this attitude as if I'm pushing something or preying upon people. Again, I'm not here to try and prove something to people with attitudes. You don't believe it fine. I have the right to provide a service to people who are interested. My friend who is the owner of this website if I am not mistaken welcomes my work and my announcement of these meetings. So I think your continuous hostility is unjustified and appears to be evidence of other motivation.

Quote from: MarkE on July 30, 2015, 07:29:39 PM
Has anyone connected an actual power analyzer and concluded that any of your devices are working overunity machines?

I noticed that you did not answer Mark's question.

Yes I did. But I also responded to all of his posts against me.

Quote from: memoryman on July 30, 2015, 10:32:38 PM
I noticed that you did not answer Mark's question.

Quote from: rickfriedrich on July 30, 2015, 10:58:20 PM
Yes I did. But I also responded to all of his posts against me.

No, you dodged the question. A proper answer would look something like this:

"Yes, a team led by P. Eng. Whatshisname used a Clarke-Hess power analyzer on the QEG device presented by Rubbertales in August 2013 and made a full report which you can read at this link: Etc. etc."

That is, you provide a proper credible reference that can be checked, so that we have confidence that the instrument was used properly and gave repeatable results.
Personally, I have _never_ seen such a report of proper instrument use from any free-energy claimant, and I've seen a lot of claims. So why don't you give us some checkable details of one of those many many such cases you know about.

I know why, and so do you.

Meanwhile you still haven't answered MY questions. Where do you get your electricity for your home and laboratory? Where do the "overunity" claimants get their electricity?  Is there _anyone_ that you know of who powers their home and/or laboratory, using any of the "overunity" or "free energy" devices that will be demonstrated, or have been demonstrated, at any of your events?

Are you still connected to your local electricity grid, or not, Rick Friedrich?  What percent of your own electrical needs are supplied by "Zero Point Energy" or any of the "free energy" devices you claim exist? What reduction in your utility bills have you experienced yourself from using these devices?

Quote from: rickfriedrich on July 30, 2015, 10:24:02 PM
Thousands of people have hooked up every instrument you can think of to these machines to do every kind of testing. We also use them for other purposes than energy as well. But yes, obviously. Our customers are from every walk of life. From every kind of professor, electrical, mechanical engineer, the military, the biggest companies, to Joe Shmo hobbyist. These people often buy several machines over several years and they are satisfied with what they are using them for. I provide a service to people who ask for these things. I never started this because I had an idea to sell anything. People on forums cursed me out because I did not provide kits for them so eventually I did. I figured out everything I needed and wanted to know within 6 months of research. Then because people asked for something I gave them exactly what they asked for. They asked for seconds and thirds and more and more people asked. So don't give me this attitude as if I'm pushing something or preying upon people. Again, I'm not here to try and prove something to people with attitudes. You don't believe it fine. I have the right to provide a service to people who are interested. My friend who is the owner of this website if I am not mistaken welcomes my work and my announcement of these meetings. So I think your continuous hostility is unjustified and appears to be evidence of other motivation.

So that is a big no on anyone connecting a power analyzer and finding that they think your machines are overunity as you claim?  You have every right to put on any kind of show that you like.  Where one runs into problems is when one makes claims that are false.  You do not dispute that when you claim to have "overunity systems" that means you have systems that output more energy than they consume.  Since that is something that no one has ever successfully delivered the chances of your claims being true are very low.  I have patiently and clamly offered you the opportunity to clarify your claims so that there will be no misunderstanding between you and anyone who pays admission to your show.

I guess you can't read.

Quote from: MarkE on July 30, 2015, 11:43:41 PM
So that is a big no on anyone connecting a power analyzer and finding that they think your machines are overunity as you claim?  You have every right to put on any kind of show that you like.  Where one runs into problems is when one makes claims that are false.  You do not dispute that when you claim to have "overunity systems" that means you have systems that output more energy than they consume.  Since that is something that no one has ever successfully delivered the chances of your claims being true are very low.  I have patiently and clamly offered you the opportunity to clarify your claims so that there will be no misunderstanding between you and anyone who pays admission to your show.

I get my energy from the vacuum.

People have privately done their own tests. People don't need other people to prove something to them. They actually use the technology daily. Why do you need a meter to tell you what you use daily? We use meters for testing (and look at many things for different reasons) but I think you guys misunderstand how the energy works. You suppose that people are saying there is a magical device that produces x amount of watts that can or can't be measured by some analyzer. But the fact is that the our machines are relative to the load they are used with. There is no standard output because the load is half of the process. And if we are talking about batteries being charged then the rate of charge will depend on the size, voltage and condition of the batteries. The larger the bank being charged the more charge will take place if they are not needing to be rejuvenated. When we think of regular motors and generators we look at the machines themselves and see what goes in or out of them. Here we are looking at all the parts to see the total output of the entire system. In many cases yes, attempting to place a meter between the batteries and motor could result in damaging the meter or filtering the process. We don't believe the energy flows according to standard theories so it is not expected to see much of a flow from the motors to the batteries. That is not important as much as putting your meters on the batteries after they are charged and then discharging them over time. That is easy to do. Or in the case of many of our motors we rotate them back and forth for months or years. If the energy flow from the motor into the batteries is shown to be very little, yet the batteries get charged at a much faster rate than is expected, then we realize that something else is charging the batteries. This the skeptics will never bother to look into because they just want to control their research in such a way as to prove their own preconceived theories. They want to only put their meters in one place and look for electron flow. They want a five minute demonstration. And we have several of those for them as well. So they can see a motor first being run off a battery while charging a battery as in the basic system. Then they can see the battery powering the motor being charged and energy going back into the circuit while the charging battery continues to charge. This is happening while a bunch of large 100W and smaller LEDs are being powered with and without zero point energy. People put their meters between the bulbs and the source and cannot figure it out. They put them anywhere they want and are always amazed. You can say what you wish but the batteries are charging the whole time the motor runs, and a lot of work gets done at the same time. We also have other demonstrations that power loads that are without batteries which are part of the show.

Quote from: TinselKoala on July 30, 2015, 11:26:18 PM
No, you dodged the question. A proper answer would look something like this:

"Yes, a team led by P. Eng. Whatshisname used a Clarke-Hess power analyzer on the QEG device presented by Rubbertales in August 2013 and made a full report which you can read at this link: Etc. etc."

That is, you provide a proper credible reference that can be checked, so that we have confidence that the instrument was used properly and gave repeatable results.
Personally, I have _never_ seen such a report of proper instrument use from any free-energy claimant, and I've seen a lot of claims. So why don't you give us some checkable details of one of those many many such cases you know about.

I know why, and so do you.

Meanwhile you still haven't answered MY questions. Where do you get your electricity for your home and laboratory? Where do the "overunity" claimants get their electricity?  Is there _anyone_ that you know of who powers their home and/or laboratory, using any of the "overunity" or "free energy" devices that will be demonstrated, or have been demonstrated, at any of your events?

Are you still connected to your local electricity grid, or not, Rick Friedrich?  What percent of your own electrical needs are supplied by "Zero Point Energy" or any of the "free energy" devices you claim exist? What reduction in your utility bills have you experienced yourself from using these devices?

All your talk about how skeptics (maybe some but not me or Mark) do this and that, is standard labeling.
Measure Joules in and out; that will give you the answer. IF there are more Joules out than in, look for the source.
Which one of these OU inventors is running their house/business off the grid?

Quote from: rickfriedrich on July 31, 2015, 09:18:08 AM
I get my energy from the vacuum.

People have privately done their own tests. People don't need other people to prove something to them. They actually use the technology daily. Why do you need a meter to tell you what you use daily? We use meters for testing (and look at many things for different reasons) but I think you guys misunderstand how the energy works. You suppose that people are saying there is a magical device that produces x amount of watts that can or can't be measured by some analyzer. But the fact is that the our machines are relative to the load they are used with. There is no standard output because the load is half of the process. And if we are talking about batteries being charged then the rate of charge will depend on the size, voltage and condition of the batteries. The larger the bank being charged the more charge will take place if they are not needing to be rejuvenated. When we think of regular motors and generators we look at the machines themselves and see what goes in or out of them. Here we are looking at all the parts to see the total output of the entire system. In many cases yes, attempting to place a meter between the batteries and motor could result in damaging the meter or filtering the process.

So it is your claim that at least in some cases your machines will not work because they are being measured?  How many nA/V current burden in the voltage measurements does it take to start "filtering the process"?  How many mV/A voltage burden in the current measurements does it take to start "filtering the process"?

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We don't believe the energy flows according to standard theories so it is not expected to see much of a flow from the motors to the batteries. That is not important as much as putting your meters on the batteries after they are charged and then discharging them over time. That is easy to do. Or in the case of many of our motors we rotate them back and forth for months or years. If the energy flow from the motor into the batteries is shown to be very little, yet the batteries get charged at a much faster rate than is expected, then we realize that something else is charging the batteries. This the skeptics will never bother to look into because they just want to control their research in such a way as to prove their own preconceived theories. They want to only put their meters in one place and look for electron flow. They want a five minute demonstration.  And we have several of those for them as well. So they can see a motor first being run off a battery while charging a battery as in the basic system. Then they can see the battery powering the motor being charged and energy going back into the circuit while the charging battery continues to charge. This is happening while a bunch of large 100W and smaller LEDs are being powered with and without zero point energy. People put their meters between the bulbs and the source and cannot figure it out. They put them anywhere they want and are always amazed. You can say what you wish but the batteries are charging the whole time the motor runs, and a lot of work gets done at the same time. We also have other demonstrations that power loads that are without batteries which are part of the show.

Yes it is a show.  No such tests fail to establish overunity or energy delivered to the batteries from some outside source such as the quantum vacuum.  If one wishes to establish that there is surplus energy, then one needs a test that reliably compares a DUT to a control.  Where the stored energy capacity of the battery is much greater than the external energy yielded during the test or demonstration, the accounting relies on the accuracy of the state of charge measurements.  The greater the ratio the greater the sensitivity to even small errors in the state of charge measurement.  Reliable measurements draw the batteries down to full discharge, IE 1.33V/cell at 0.1C for lead acid.

Quote from: rickfriedrichI get my energy from the vacuum.

Hilarious! I dare you to post an image of your last month's electric bill.

Hello rickfriedrich. Are any of the products you are selling supposed to be over unity?
If so, which products? Is your '4 Pole Mini DualPolar Magnet Motor' over unity?
All the best...

The 100W LED is misleading , you should be using real bulbs, as those suckers really need 100W. The real test for such a system is not 5 minutes but many hours. If the claims are true, the system will run for months, till the battery malfunctions. This systems reminds me of Bedini's motor, which no one seems to be able to replicate properly.

Quote from: TinselKoala on July 31, 2015, 06:14:45 PM
Hilarious! I dare you to post an image of your last month's electric bill.

haha

Quote from: pomodoro on August 02, 2015, 12:14:14 AM
The 100W LED is misleading , you should be using real bulbs, as those suckers really need 100W. The real test for such a system is not 5 minutes but many hours. If the claims are true, the system will run for months, till the battery malfunctions. This systems reminds me of Bedini's motor, which no one seems to be able to replicate properly.

John Bedini whom Rick Friedrich used to work with has been making similar claims going back to at least the early 1980s.  It does not seem that anyone has ever been able to make one of these machines obviate the need for their local power utility.  Some forms of over unity must be more over unity than others.  They have been able to make large and expensive desulfanating lead acid battery chargers out of them.  But they always seem to eventually require recharge of the batteries using a conventional charger connected to the power utility.