>:(
It this right?
The:
4 automotive 12v batteries
1 marine 12v battery
are the 5 batteries is the same (1) powerbar ????????????
it is something to switch here ?
Pese
:'(
Hi and thanks for posting this system, but I have some questions.
-How and why would the be overunity?
-Why only 1 marine battery?
-I find it hard to believe you could run all that suff (like at the verry least 1000watt) on a 100watt invertor without smoking it out.
-How can overunity exist in such a system when for example lightbulbs are used which convert most power to heat and radiate it away?
Altought I might sound like a close minded non-believer, I'm not I can asure you that. So I guess I'm asking for some extra info.
Thanks!
::)
@terry
Perhaps importantly.:
The inverter.
That is the new design with high frequency and dan ?quasi-sine? 50 or 60Hz shaping.?
Or that is the old heavy design with 2 Transistors as Sinusgenerator with
heavy IRON/copper Transfo?
Perhaps this is important.
Unimportantly it is already times whether car or navy batteries is used.
Therefore all lead/iron batteries.
Pese
::)
Hi all and especially to ring_theory.
I decided to try out your design but only had small 12V 7amp batteries and a 12V 4 amp battery which I put all in parallel.
I took a 600W DC/AC converter and also used a large battery charger set at 2 amps, slow charge.
I tried lighting a 110 volts 90 amp flood light and then tried a 100W standard light bulb. In both cases, DC voltage across the batteries went down by 0.01 VDC every 4-5 minutes, which is impressive in itself. I also tried the same configuration with a 175W DC/AC converter and the result were no different.
But, I then completely removed the 110 volt bulb, and instead, as the photo shows, I put one 12V-150MA bulb plus one 12V vehicle license plate light directly onto the batteries. Both lights have been lighting for the last 2 hours and the voltage across the batteries has remained steady at 12.08 VDC.
Call it what you will, this design is in fact lighting the bulb and is not dropping in voltage. There are no outside connections.
I will look into this further to see up to what DC draw I can take before voltage starts dropping. Also, there is a question of the components I amusing and their inherent inefficiencies. The converter is a low cost unit $50 CDN. The battery charger is a 2 amp, 10 amp and 50 amp selector (for immediate car start) model that must have lots of losses. The license plate bulb is pretty hot to the touch.
But if this design is taken a step further with more streamlined components, I am sure it will work like a charm.
Very simple and interesting.
:-[
Walter Hofmann tried also simular things last year and
he told me, that if he had a battery charger all the time
recharging the batteries from the inverter output,
the batteries almost don?t discharge.
It is something like the Tom Bearden non distroyable dipole.
If you kick the battery all the time with current pulses back,
the ions don?t have time to discharge the "dipole" of the battery.
There is probably a threshold level, what loads you could
connect to the batteries, before the voltage drops...
So don?t connect too many loads..
The load current should not be too high.
At least you could this way get much more energy out
of the batteries than usual !
This is for sure !
Hi Wattsup,
please keep us updated of your progress !
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
@wattsup
12v 150mA Bulb ... is less then 2 watts
this will light over month
(300 to 400 hours with an car battery)
so you cant see any "drop" in 2 hours
@pese
The system is also lighting a 12v heavy duty vehicule licence plate bulb which is getting pretty hot to the touch.
I will be doing the sam etes without the recharge to see the rate of votalge decline in order to set a baseline for future tests.
Will provide more info as soon as I can.
Hi
from my testresults since two years the charger should be set or at least the size of the smalest used battery current in your case it would be at least 4 A or the 10A setting if you use the automatic charger it will protect the batteries from overcharging but you would have the reserve especially if you got appliances on it which turn on and off.
I used a 1,000W inverter two deepcycle batteries with 850 CCAmps and the charger is the same like you but set to 10A. I could put another load on the inverter up to 120V/10A on it Like heavy tools for daily 4 to 6 hours. the batteries needed to be recharged from the grid or in my case from a 100A alternator after about 4 to 6 weeks, because it lost over this time about 2V what is the lowest discharge for the batteries.
I believe with a charger what can give 30A I could even power a 3,000W inverter with about 120V/25 A load on it for a couple hours.
just my two cents
greetings
walt
Quote from: wattsup on January 05, 2007, 11:21:07 PM
Hi all and especially to ring_theory.
I decided to try out your design but only had small 12V 7amp batteries and a 12V 4 amp battery which I put all in parallel.
I took a 600W DC/AC converter and also used a large battery charger set at 2 amps, slow charge.
I tried lighting a 110 volts 90 amp flood light and then tried a 100W standard light bulb. In both cases, DC voltage across the batteries went down by 0.01 VDC every 4-5 minutes, which is impressive in itself. I also tried the same configuration with a 175W DC/AC converter and the result were no different.
But, I then completely removed the 110 volt bulb, and instead, as the photo shows, I put one 12V-150MA bulb plus one 12V vehicle license plate light directly onto the batteries. Both lights have been lighting for the last 2 hours and the voltage across the batteries has remained steady at 12.08 VDC.
Call it what you will, this design is in fact lighting the bulb and is not dropping in voltage. There are no outside connections.
I will look into this further to see up to what DC draw I can take before voltage starts dropping. Also, there is a question of the components I amusing and their inherent inefficiencies. The converter is a low cost unit $50 CDN. The battery charger is a 2 amp, 10 amp and 50 amp selector (for immediate car start) model that must have lots of losses. The license plate bulb is pretty hot to the touch.
But if this design is taken a step further with more streamlined components, I am sure it will work like a charm.
Very simple and interesting.
:o
Hi Terry,
to your first comment: yes it was nessecicary bevause I needed a powersource for my workshop for the tools before I had my permanent wiring in place and I believe 1,000w is pretty much a minimum what people would need.
to the second a grid charge of the batteries cost about $ 2.50 what is about 1/10 of the grid price and the independency.
the third : the wattage can be determined by using a wattmeter no probleme. Just put a adjustable load on it and read the watt meter the easiest is the so called "kille a watt"
the input side is a little bit different but with a ampmeter for up to 100A for current and a DMM for voltage works an then due the math.
Believe me I know the story with marketing and/or investors it is tuff to get anythings going!
I personaly just go with my own money as far as it gets at the time, it takes longer but secures my interest in the product.
I wish you the best of luck
greetings
walt
Quote from: ring_theory on January 07, 2007, 01:09:00 PM
@Walter Hofmann
The more batteries in the bank the more resistive it is to discharge. I understand your trying to match the wattage of inverter to your needs wattage wise. but is that really nessicary? What your doing by useing a 1000w inverter is creating more of a demand on the battery bank, that the charger has to recover. which means a shorter period of time between grid charges or in your case fuel costs.
If i may suggest droping the inverter wattage and up the # of cells in the battery bank. However if the system you built suits your needs, do nothing. change your configuration and you will get roughly 6 months or 1000 hrs between outside system charges to prevent system failure.
3000w inverter? your insane! you would need atleast 4 times the battery bank.. Hmm 3000w might be enough to feed the grid considering the real peak of the inverter in a system like this will well exceed that.
How do they determine the wattage on the inverters anyways? Hook it to a battery put 1000w drain on it. Oops it kicked off it's a thousand watts. sure a single battery would support the wattage till it's voltage dropped below inverter low voltage peramiters.
The experiment was prematurely interrupted by the batteries inability to support the demand. The key is to not let it get to that point
@ all
I fully intend to encase these units and sell them on ebay to market them as a hybrid electric generator. the goal is to make make money for research and developement of my primary invention SRTT see "fully baked innovation".
To be fully honest i need financial backing for tooling, materials, componants, and research and developement to get started at marketing this system as a hybrid electric generator with several model lines. There is only two ways that will happen #1 if a financial backer steps up or people pre order them. The first models are not going to be cheap to start with. i figure after production gets into full swing and knowing that these units are going to be in high demand. in the automotive market alone i predict a multimillon dollar investment return which is tripe compaired to the multitrillon dollar return on my primary invention.
Ordering info:
The above unit encased with battery bank ready to go upon arrival, single unit $1000 multiple units above 5 units per order $900. Note shipping is not included in unit price.
I will be accepting payment By money order, check, cashiers check, and paypal.
send money orders and checks to
Terry L Hewett Sr
pobox 302
clinton Ia 52733-0302
I will be accepting payment by paypal in most major currencies.
send to terrylhewettsr@yahoo.com via paypal.
contact terrylhewettsr@yahoo.com for more information.
@all
I'm one of the "sneaky" watchers, who mostly uses the server bandwidth without activily contributing to the OU crusade. I'm kind of embarassed about this fact. But I haven't got the skills it takes for playing with you guys and your toys (TPU, MEG and such). Sure I can build a curcit from a known working diagram, but all EE theories, electronical wave tuning and circuit designing is out of my reach.
After this confession, I'll better start talking business :)
@ring_theory, wattsup & Walter Hofmann
Finally a setup that can be easily put together (ring_theory, thanks for letting the cat out), and bought for a reasonable amount of money manna.
Before I rush out to buy some stuff for a test setup, I would like to ask a few questions.
1. If you connect a second battery bank and charger, and just charge the second bank like an ordinary charging from the inverter, wouldn't you then, in theory, be able to run such a system indefinetly (depending on battery wear), by switching the battery banks every four weeks, or so ?
2. I don't really get how you can support far more load on the inverter, than it's rated for. If the charger is disconnected, the setup is just an ordinay 12DC/110AC converter, witch shoulden't be able to support the over rated load. What happens to the inverter, if the charger is disconnected during heavy (10 x rated) load. Is the charger really doing the trick ???
3. Any comments or things to consider when running this setup with 220V 50Hz ?
4. I can get this charger cheap: http://www.einhell.de/scripts/products.asp?CompanyID=1&LanguageID=2&Path=2021|608|793|794|1645 (http://www.einhell.de/scripts/products.asp?CompanyID=1&LanguageID=2&Path=2021%7C608%7C793%7C794%7C1645) . Would it work in this setup?
SwinG
Hello together
I am new ,but since long time very curiously with tis stuff.
And i follow with max interest the storys here.
About the battery banks allow me a question.
As i know , each battery brings its own value of resistence ,it is also important to
be shure that all other Batterys in the Bank should have the same value of resistence.
As they are in parallel circuit,otherwhise it might cause that the batterys eat eachother.
How you make shure that such things not happend? Especialy as you are going to sell them as part of a system.
What about warrenty?
I not want to create a problem for you. But i can well remember about my old camper,that cost me some Money to renew the batterys after time.
Helmut
@SwinG
Yes, I think this charger can be used...
It really depends on the pulses you feed back via the charger
to the batteries...
One problem I also see, if all the batteries do not have the same capacity
and the same equal voltage, one battery, which has a higher voltage
will be discharged into the battery with the lower voltage,
so therecould be quite big "unwanted" currents bteween the batteries...
So it is also always better to draw less current from batteries,
so they always hold longer their charges and just last longer...
So it would be wise to use instead a 24 Volts system by using 2 x 12 Volts Batteries
in series.
Also you need of course an inverter which is rated for the load
you want to apply.
So if you want to connect many devices which together have 3000 Watts in total,
you also need a 3000 Watts rated inverter. This is for sure, otherwise yopur 100 Watts
inverter just will blow up.
Also there are low idle power inverters out there, that only draw low input current,
if no load is applied at the output.
Regards, Stefan.
;D removed
Wow , hartiberlin you are correct .ring_theory has found a very easy way to sustain the dipole.
Man talk about dumbing it down . Wonderful job ring theory .
All those coils I wound .Amazing!!
@ring_theory & Stefan
QuoteSo if you want to connect many devices which together have 3000 Watts in total,
you also need a 3000 Watts rated inverter. This is for sure, otherwise yopur 100 Watts
inverter just will blow up.
Quotethe inverter is unchanged it is doing it's job which is to transform energy from 12v Dc to 110v AC it's just not hindered by the low voltage circuit.
There seems to be a little contradiction here. I'm a little confused.
Stefan's answer would be the logical one, but from what I understand, both ring_theory and wattsup have acheived more than 10 times the rated load with no problems.
If what ring_theory is saying is to be taken litterally, then why event rate the inverters ???
I'm a little uncertain about the charger. Must it be an electronic(SM) type, or an old iron core type ?
@Stefan
Is it of that big importance with the batteries. When they are all connected in parallel, woulden't they just level each other out constantly (but off cause, the battery with smaller capacity would probably not contribute with the same amount of amps as the other cells)?
@ring_theory
Why more cells when running 220VAC. Wouldn't the output amps be half of those of the 110VAC system equaling U*I sum. Why would that demand more juice from the bank (maybe basic electronic knowledge)?
@all
I think this could be a moment of truth fellowers (look at him, less than 10 posts, and he is allready calling me fellow).
If this could be made into an easy scalable and replical system, with automatic "bank switching", made from easy atainable and relatively cheap parts, this could revolutionize the world. Indirectly forcing main stream scientists to study the behind lying causes of the aparent overunity effect, this could lead to a full recognition of ZPE and its viability.
If you can download a shoppinglist and assemmbly instructions for a system guarenteed to work, you should all build such a system. It takes less than a day to assemble, and parts could be purchased for less than $500.00 in nealy any hardware store. When you have build a working system, and proven it's functionality, you should invite some of your friends, families and neighbors for a beer and a chat, and show them the system, and tell them about the concept. Hand out a weblink or hardcopys of the shoppinglist and instructions.
I bet this could be a breakthrow.
It's a bit funny, cause this is kind of a thing that a 6 year old would think of as a logical solution: Make the batteries feed the inverter, who feeds the charger, who feeds the batteires, who feeds the inver......
You gotta love kids :D
:'( removed
Hi,
Where abouts are you located ring_theory? I would like to test this out but can't afford the parts. Also do you think it will work with zinc air cells? they're basically batteries that never wear out.
http://www.poweraircorp.com/technology/advantages.asp
::) removed
First, thank you for the replys to my newbie questions.
I know that this system is probably not gonna save the world alone. A better free energy device would be a working MEG or TPU, but these devices are much more complicated to build, and you can't tell ya mum to buill one of those. Thats really where the power of this concept lies.
I will be working on a 220VAC system, and I got some friends who will be replicating it along the way. We will then each of us find atleast 3 more people, who will replicate, and there you have it. By using the MLM(Multi Level Marketing) strategy we will try to rock the little country of Denmark.
Any comments on this approach?
Please understand, that I verry well know that a system without the batteries would be much better, and the impact of a working TPU would be far greater in the scientific community. But, lets face it. For a working TPU (or alike) to penetrate to the people, we are talking atleast 2-3 years, maybe even longer.
@ring_theory
So, you don't need any kind of special pulsing charging system. Any charger would do the job as long as it supports the bank size ?
About the inverter, I guess it will be a try/error apparoch.
I'll be starting to paly in 1-2 weeks. I got some things to take care of first (don't you always :))
After all, this is not about getting rich, is it?
Isn't it more about free energy to the people?
;D removed
@ring_theory
Don't misunderstand me. I don't expect a penny from this. I would just like to see ZPE being exploided, instead of throwing millions after Tokamak projects, as main stream sciense does today. If thousands of people goes off the grid in Denmark, politicians would have to take it serious. And just imagine what else scientists would have to face as reality.
If just people would give me the credit to go and try it for themselves, I would feel enriched.
Power prices is about 0.33/kwh in Denmark. Expected lifetime for at double battery bank (for swapping) of 5 years, gives a price of less than 0.02/kwh. Not free, no, but cheap enough for people to be interested to try it out. And that's the point. If people try it, and finds out that it works, they will spread the word, and soon the little nation will be set on fire ;D.
You would probably also very soon see some improvements when the concept gets known, so that the bulky lead/acid batteries would be unnessesary. Maybe the zink/air batteries would be an alternative.
::) removed by poster
Actually, although the idea is good, it still needs lots of work. The inverter being off the shelf type has many built in energy consuming filters to run those sophisticated systems like televisions, radios, sound systems that one would use in a car. So the actual efficiency of off the self inverters is extremely poor, since they are supposed to be plugged in cars and they are really not concerned about efficiency. Especially the lower end mass market units.
So you would have to develop a high efficiency inverter without any power consuming filters, since the charger does not need such clean current. Also the charger can be made more efficient if it has a pulsed charging system and does not have several output windings like the one I used.
The one market that is ready for this item would be those who are already running wind and solar collectors. This system could be a good compliment to their already existing battery banks. But trying to convince others who are on the grid to stock loads of batteries, etc, would be more demanding.
So you see, there is free energy in so many systems, and each one will have its takers.
As for market rights, please be aware that this is a forum for free disclosures of ideas and systems and afterwards, he who goes for the market will reap the rewards. If this is not your intent, I recommend you stop discussing this and start making and selling units.
Please understand. I DON'T WAN'T TO MAKE MONEY FROM THIS.
Actually, I would gladly help others to replicate, if I get a working system.
QuoteSo the actual efficiency of off the self inverters is extremely poor, since they are supposed to be plugged in cars and they are really not concerned about efficiency. Especially the lower end mass market units.
Who cares about the inverter efficiency when the power is for free. ;)
QuoteBut trying to convince others who are on the grid to stock loads of batteries, etc, would be more demanding.
I'm pretty convinced that most people would have no problem using a few square feet for storing the battery banks, and change them every 5 years, if it could provide them with free energy. Maybe som people don't care about the money they can save. After all it woulden't be more than $150/month in savings for an avarage household, But what about the inviromental implications. A system like this would mean ZERO CO2 emission.
How about that for a starter. Bye bye Kyoto.
And don't forget that improvements would be applied fast, if this gets known.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can figure out, two battery banks of 10 60Ah cells would be sufficient to substain power for an average household. Thats 20 cells in total. How much room would that take. Not a lot.
Make it 40 cells in total, and it would still be only a few square feet if you stack them vertically.
About the exploding demand for lead/acid batteries this would create, I have no idea.
::) removed by poster
Maybe someone should experiment with some Zinc Air Batteries in this configuration...
::) removed by poster
I couldn't wait.
Just bought a used battery, 95Ah big mother f..... $16.5
Bought a 10A car electronic charger, with overload protection - $42
Bought an 300W inverter - $50
Total of $108.5
Hooked it up.
Battery voltage reads 12.45.
Turns on inverter and a 100W light bulb. Voltage drops to about 12.03V
Turn on the charger, and the voltage dropped further to 11.91V.
The light bulb and charger has been on for 15 minutes now, and voltage has RAISED to 11.98 !!!
I just can't beleave this.
I don't know how much juice there was on the battery, but a 95Ah at 12.45V can't be fully charged.
Just added some pictures.
The voltage has now droped to 11.93V, so I guess time will show. I'll turn off the bulb when the voltage droppes to 11.90V, and just let the charger put more juice one the battery, from the inverter offcause. ;D
I decided to fully charge the battery by conventional means from the wall socket. Just so that I know I have a fully charged battery.
It's fully charged in a couple of hours.
I think about letting the system run with the 100W light bulb, and just see for how long it will run from a full charge.
The battery is used, so I would say that if the system runs with the bulb connected for more than 12 hours, it will be a succes. 95Ah*12V = 1140W for one hour, or 95W for 12 hours.
Is the 100W bulb to much when only using one battery? Should I use a 60W bulb instead?
Hi SwinG,
looks good !
Maybe you should try also with lower output bulbs
like 25 or 40 Watts only...
Also the battery charger should be something with pulses
in it, so at least a cheap one, that just uses a graetz rectifier bridge
without capacitors, so you get the full wave rectified pulses.
I guess it would be good to design one own?s battery charger, just with about 20 to 100 Volts
high ampere pulses from the inverter output.
SwinG, what input power is your inverter using, if you don?t connect any load to it at the output ?
I already wanted to build such a system last year, when Walter Hofmann told me about his
system, but did not yet have the time to do it.
Regards, Stefan.
P.S. If you ?just buy a 100 Watts inverter and expect to power
a 3000 Watts load with it, the inverter will just not work..
The transistors will overheat in it and the unit will die or just shut
down all the time... so if you plan to power 3000 Watts
with it, you also should have an inverter for this power rating !
::) removed by poster
The direction of the connections to the batteries are crossing (directions - left and right) in respect to the inverter and charger.
Does this matter, or will it work the same with inverter connected to both terminal on one side and charger connected to the other side of the battery bank?
Yes you would think that if you had and inverter that was say 100 watts and tried to pull 1000 watts off of it , it would just shut down . But I have put together a 120 watt inverter with some deep cells and the charger per ring_theory's instructions .
I have been pulling just about 1000 watts for the last 24 hours or so. Its just like ring_theory explained in his first or so posts.
The inverter is just slightly warm .
I must be crazy to post this but its so overwhelming and to simple.
::) removed by poster
@stefan
I'm not sure what you mean about the charger. My knowledge about electronics stops at R=U*I, so I don't know what you mean about pulsing charger.
The specs for the inverter says that static current is below 300mA, so th inverter running idle would not draw more than 3.6W. The rated efficiency is >90%.
I have tried to use a toaster that can run in either 350W or 700W mode. The inverter sounds the alarm, and shuts down when trying to connect it. So I can't apparently draw more than the rated 300W. But I don't know if its because of the build in security system of the inverter, or it's because the battery can't deliver the juice. Maybe an inverter with just a fuse would do the job.
I stopped the carging at 13.77V, and the system have know been running with just a 14W compact flourocent for a couple of hours.
Voltage readings:
19:54 start
19:57 - 12.65V
21:33 - 12.54V
03:17 - 12.18V
So, to sum up, The inverter uses a maximum of 3.6W, the flourocent uses 14W (probably a little more) and the charger is pumping at 5A, witch gives about 70W consumption.
So a total of about 90W.
I don't know if it's allright that the voltage drops like this. It has dropped about 0.5V in about 7 hours.
I'm using only one battery. Will this only work with a multi battery system?
Maybe the 220VAC system is not as viable as the 110VAC system.
update
This is going to slow. If I should be certain of OU, I would have to leave the system on with the 14W bulb for more than 80 hours. I'm not that patient.Ã, :)
Connected the 100W bulb again. I know that I don't know really where I am know, but I really cant be certain anyway, cause I don't know the exact state of the battery.
04:29 - 12.15V - changed to 100W bulb - 11.92V
04:39 - 11.88V
The inverter will shut down at 10.00V.
When I changed to the 100W bulb, the charger current dropped to 3A immediately. How to account for that? The 230mV drop when bulbs was changed can't account for a 2A drop in current.
@IronHead
Congratulation !!!
Could you give a little more info on your setup?
What charger are you using?
How many batteries?
How big capacity of the batteries?
Specifications for the inverter?
@wattsup
Have you still a working setup?
Any updates?
@ring_theory
Are you still at current moment using your system?
update:
@05:01 - 11.81V
::) removed by poster
@ring_theory
Okay. so one battery wouldn't even be enough to test the concept ?
If crossing the terminals of the inverter and the charger is an important part of the equation, one battery clearly wouldn't be enough.
More than two batteries couldn't do more than raise the capacity of the system, or am I missing something (I probably amÃ, :)) ?
Maybe I should just build the system from your specs, to be sure to do it right. It's just that I would like to get some kind of indication wether or not I can make this work.
I think that the inverter I'm using is no good. It seems to cut off as soon as it recognizes more than 300W load.
Thank's for your help.
Quote from: IronHead on January 10, 2007, 07:19:00 PM
Yes you would think that if you had and inverter that was say 100 watts and tried to pull 1000 watts off of it , it would just shut down . But I have put together a 120 watt inverter with some deep cells and the charger per ring_theory's instructions .
I have been pulling just about 1000 watts for the last 24 hours or so. Its just like ring_theory explained in his first or so posts.
The inverter is just slightly warm .
I must be crazy to post this but its so overwhelming and to simple.
Hmm,
why is your inverter not shutting down ?
The MOSFETs inside such an inverter are only
rate for such and such amperes, so if you go over the rated specs,
it should shut down from the protective circuit included there...
Otherwise the MOSFETs will overheat and destroy the inverter...
@SwinG,
what waveform does your charger produce ?
Do you have a scope and check this ?
It should have a full wave rectified 50 Hz wave.
Regards, Stefan.
::) removed by poster
@Stefan
Quotewhat waveform does your charger produce ?
Do you have a scope and check this ?
It should have a full wave rectified 50 Hz wave.
I don't have a scope, sorry.
I don't know witch waveform it's charging with.
Maybe somenone knows. It's a quite common charger.
::) removed by poster
Quote from: ring_theory on January 11, 2007, 01:31:36 AM
Stefan his inverter isn't shutting down because of thermodynamics. thermodynamics is essentially the "conservation of energy" police. The sciences and academia well understand what it takes to violate the laws of thermodynamics. but when it comes to upholding the laws they havn't a clue.
Do you want to tell me, that you can power with all
100 Watts inverters 3000 Watt loads ?
Come on, that just does not work..
The inverters are specially built to their power rating !
Drawing more power from them is just not possible...
They will just overheat and shut down...
@ring_theory
I better get myself some more batteries.
Could you elaborate a bit more about why this works? Conserving the dipole doesn't say me a lot.
@Stefan
For now I'm on your side about the inverter, but you are thinking conventional EE. After all, who would ever think about putting a system like this together anyway.Ã, :D
We also got to take in to account that 3 people have been doing this so far. It seems like it's only my inverter that doesn't follow the "rule".
Update:
@07:43 - 10.56V - terminated. Inverter low voltage alarm.
Couldn't stand the noise of the beep (more like BEEEEEEEEP).
Hi SwinG,
you need a better battery charger probably.
One with real good pulses.
All depends how good these charging pulses are and
if they can keep the battery charged.
I guess, it is probably the same, if you use just 1 battery
or 4 or 5 batteries.
Maybe it helps to place a big electrolyte
capacitor parallel with the battery.
Did you get all in all more energy out, than you did
put in by charging the battery from the grid in the first place ?
Also it could be, if you have a cheap inverter, which puts out this
"pseudo sinewave" , which is more like
0 Volts / plus 320 Volts / 0 Volts / minus 320 Volts / 0 Volts
and so on and on...
so it is a switched "square"-voltage with a time interval of Zero Volts between...
then you might not get the right waveforms out of the battery charger..
If your battery charger is just a transformer with a graetz rectifier bridge in
there, it might not run well on the
"pseudo sinewave" of the inverter...as the transformer probably
does not work with these pulses...
You really need to check with a scope,
what kind of pulse wave comes out of your battery charger
in this configuration...
A better setup in your case might be, to have the
battery charger connected to the grid and charge the
battery, but also apply a load via the inverter to the battery
and see, if you get more power constantly out of it
all the time as you need to charge the battery all the time...
So if you connect a 100 Watts bulbs via the inverter to your battery
and your battery charger
just only needs 50 Watts from the grid all the time you also have
2:1 overunity output.
Maybe your battery charger works much better from
the real sine wave from the grid....
Hello stefan,
I follow this since it showed up here, its amazing to me how it is explained but substantial the same like we was talking two years ago.
to the facts ring theory is right one battery wont do it but my system with the 1,000W inverter what puts out a quasi sinus wave works perfect with only two big batteries 850 CCAmps like described and a charger set to deep cycle 10A. What is also right the cross over part what wass strang to me also because I was the opinion that if I bridge the batterie poles it would be the same doesnt matter if you put the load and the charger on the same contact but it isnt. I regards to the inverter my 1,000W inverter what isd a cherokee type does not shut off up to 1,500W ether but my 3,000W shuts off allready by 3,800W.
I am also on your site if you say a 100W inverter can not handle more then 300W and then shuts off. my charger puts out coming from the quasi sinus wave of the inverter with a similar wave just that the wave is then more pushed towards a stair wave what is probably the reason that the batteries bring this much.
To the inverter my 1,000W inverter pulls only 550mA no load and around 30A by full load,even the 3,000W inverter pulls just 750mA and around 75A by full load I measured it.
I also took the transformer from another charger with the rectifier what is not a bridge is a two way and tested them they can and probably give more then 10 A all the way to 17A without any temperature rising. the charger circuit in ordinairy charger only works on the voltage difference and does not check for current and because the there is a quasi sinus wave coming in and is pushed thrue the charger also even change to a stair type it works on the batteries like a pulscharger where the current follows the the stair and is much higher at the tip then at the bottom.
you can see this on a scope and a analog amp meter.
I just wana ad my expierience from my now two year old system.
greetings
walt
Quote from: hartiberlin on January 11, 2007, 02:13:52 AM
Hi SwinG,
you need a better battery charger probably.
One with real good pulses.
All depends how good these charging pulses are and
if they can keep the battery charged.
I guess, it is probably the same, if you use just 1 battery
or 4 or 5 batteries.
Maybe it helps to place a big electrolyte
capacitor parallel with the battery.
Did you get all in all more energy out, than you did
put in by charging the battery from the grid in the first place ?
Also it could be, if you have a cheap inverter, which puts out this
"pseudo sinewave" , which is more like
0 Volts / plus 320 Volts / 0 Volts / minus 320 Volts / 0 Volts
and so on and on...
so it is a switched "square"-voltage with a time interval of Zero Volts between...
then you might not get the right waveforms out of the battery charger..
If your battery charger is just a transformer with a graetz rectifier bridge in
there, it might not run well on the
"pseudo sinewave" of the inverter...as the transformer probably
does not work with these pulses...
You really need to check with a scope,
what kind of pulse wave comes out of your battery charger
in this configuration...
A better setup in your case might be, to have the
battery charger connected to the grid and charge the
battery, but also apply a load via the inverter to the battery
and see, if you get more power constantly out of it
all the time as you need to charge the battery all the time...
So if you connect a 100 Watts bulbs via the inverter to your battery
and your battery charger
just only needs 50 Watts from the grid all the time you also have
2:1 overunity output.
Maybe your battery charger works much better from
the real sine wave from the grid....
Hi ring_theory and the rest
First - thanks to ring_theory for kindly and patiently sharing this information with us all.
I am giving this setup a try but am not having much luck thus far. Maybe ring_theory or any of you guys can sort it out for me.
Here's what I have - 5 12volt batteries at 5 amp each. Some are new and some are not so can't verify their condition. (by the way I am one of those dummies that cannot see what difference it makes what number of batteries one uses except of course in amperage capacity from say 3 batteries to 5 ???)
I have a 100 watt inverter(12 DC to 220v) - 90% efficient.
I have a 5 amp battery charger
I have a 6 watt 12 volt light bulb
I have charged up all batteries and connected them in parallel. I connected the battery charger and inverter across all of the batteries.
Together the inverter and battery charger use about 66 watts. I added to the system(direct off the batteries) the twelve volt bulb which draws another 6 watts. So now I have about 72 watts in appliances connected.
I am losing at least 1/2 volt/hour. My inverter gets pretty hot but not dangerously so. My battery charger makes a continuous buzzing noise but does not heat up much.
I don't have a scope and don't know anything about what kind of wave the charger is creating.
I haven't yet tried to load the system more than the 100 watt rating of the inverter yet so i don't know the maximum capacity. But it is clear that I am losing power in the battery system and so it doesn't look like OU to me.
Am I setup properly here or am I missing something?
Look forward to any comments and thanks in advance
QuoteDid you get all in all more energy out, than you did
put in by charging the battery from the grid in the first place ?
I don't really know. It's hard to calculate. When the battery was charging, the current wasn't stable, so it's a bit hard to tell how much energy I've put in.
@Walter Hofmann
Thank's to you too for sharing.
I don't know much about electronics, so I can't really figure out if your charging setup resembles mine. But as I understand it, you can't draw momre than the rated power from the inverter. This is very strange. Maybe it depends on the inverter design.
@pg46
Have you tried to "cross" the inverter and the charger on the poles? It seems like it's important for the system to work, and thats why you need more than one battery.
I have had my system running like Stefan suggested, with the charger on the grid, and the 100W bulb on the inverter, but system only ran for about 2 hours, before the low voltage alarm sounded. So nothing gained, only losses.
I don't think I'll get any further before I get hold of some more batteries.
Walter pointed out that crossing not required.
5 amp battery is too small in that configuration.
Thanks to ring_theory, Walter, and the rest.
Thanks SwinG-
Think I will switch the inverter leads to opposite the poles that the charger is on and try that. I think that before I may have had them on the same poles as the charger.
Later on I may try using the grid power idea that you and Stefan mentioned.
Will report in later and thanks for tips.
@Grumpy
I think you have misread the post from Walter:
QuoteWhat is also right the cross over part what wass strang to me also because I was the opinion that if I bridge the batterie poles it would be the same doesnt matter if you put the load and the charger on the same contact but it isnt.
As far as I can read, Walter says that it ISN'T gonna work if you don't cross the inverter input and charger output.
What I not sure about is how much the charger affects the setup. ring_theory says that the type of charger is of no importance:
QuoteYou could use the old boat anchor of a charger and replace it later.
Are you sure about that, ring_theory ?
BTW, the grid charging method didn't seem to work for me.
Thanks. Misread that.
::) removed by poster
::) removed by poster
The 6 week or so period between charges sounds like the time it takes for normal self-discharge. (not complete discharge)
Wonder if AGM batteries, which can sit on the shelf for a year, will requrie the same recharge rate in this system. If not then the depletion of the lead-acid batteries could be more to, or entirely to, self-discharge.
Quick note-
I fully recharged my 5 batteries again and then tried the system using the grid to run just the battery charger. I put in a 100 watt load off of the inverter. The voltage dropped pretty quickly in this experiment and could not keep up the charge in the batteries. Like swinG I think that the set up using the grid power may not work.
update-
the setup
5- 5amp 12v batteries all hooked in parallel, connected to a 100 watt inverter which then runs a 5 amp battery charger which charges the batteries again
connect the battery charger and the inverter across all the batteries and on opposite poles
start with fully charged batteries at 12.5 (no load)
put a total of 66 watt load on (what it takes to run the inverter and the charger)
read 12v with the load on at 1:28
read 11v " " " " at 2:15
am losing voltage and so haven't closed the loop yet - oh well, will keep trying...
@All,
it seems from the picture from Terry:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1864.msg21145.html#msg21145
that the crossing of the Plus and Minus poles of the inverter and
the charger is very important.
I had another look at it and
indeed this could have a decoupling and low pass filter effect.
You need to pulse the batteries, so the "dipole stays okay and is
not getting destroyed", ( if we trust Tom Bearden?s words here).
It seems the charger and the inverter should not be connected
directly at the same battery contacts together, so we have
the connection wires of the 5 batteries between them.
This works as a lowpassfilter, so the inverter just gets
a constant voltage input, when then battery charger still pulses
the batteries at the other side with higher than 12 Volt pulses..
The connection from battery to battery work as small coils and
the batteries themself work as capacitors, so we have 5 LC
lowpassfilters in series, which makes the voltage at the other end
smooth and constant.
The special crossing of the Plus and Minus then could have an additional
positive effect, that still discouples the inverter and charger some more
and keeps the batteries oscillating a bit more, so they can better
chargeup...
So
@Wattsup, you also did not do it exactly in your picture
as Terry has posted it, you did not cross the Plus and Minus
poles of your charger and inverter...
Please try it and report back.
Many thanks.
Hi all,
first it was right that the "croosover" what isnt actually a cross over is just use the pole on one batterie for the inverter and the poles on the last battery for the charger this is one of the most importand facts,
the next is powering the charger from a inverter and I believe it has to do with the typw of wave what comes out of the inverter because all ordinary inverter use quasi sinus wave what is like a rough sinus or a rounded square wave and this kind has a mor steep rise and fall which probably is the fact that the batteries get charged different then with the true sinus from the grid and thats why the system will not work if the charger is connected to the grid.
what is also true is that it is not importand for the systems working if you got a old iron charger or a newer electronic version except if you got one which is computer regulated, because like explained the charger electronic just use the voltage rise and fall as base for regulation and the current runs different without any regulation from the charger what is verry importand the only part with the old iron unragulated charger is that the batteries must be checked to avoidn a overcharging.
greetings
walt
Quote from: SwinG on January 11, 2007, 09:23:32 AM
@Grumpy
I think you have misread the post from Walter:
QuoteWhat is also right the cross over part what wass strang to me also because I was the opinion that if I bridge the batterie poles it would be the same doesnt matter if you put the load and the charger on the same contact but it isnt.
As far as I can read, Walter says that it ISN'T gonna work if you don't cross the inverter input and charger output.
What I not sure about is how much the charger affects the setup. ring_theory says that the type of charger is of no importance:
QuoteYou could use the old boat anchor of a charger and replace it later.
Are you sure about that, ring_theory ?
BTW, the grid charging method didn't seem to work for me.
Hi,
what kind of connection wire did you use keep in mind I used on my system heave Battery cabel which have a verry low resistance but at the relativly high current it makes a difference and also works like a real resistor in a paralell circuit to evenly distribute the charge to each battery. Just keep in mind a 12 inch pice of AWG # 8 has a resistence with soldered connector of about 31 Ohm, the same lenght of AWG 0/1 regular battery cabel has a resistence with soldered connector of only 9 Ohm. A 3 feet connector kabel AWG # 6 has a resistence of 28 Ohm.
In a system circuit like this one it has a tremendous play what size of connectorwire is used.
greetings
walt
Quote from: pg46 on January 11, 2007, 01:38:10 PM
Quick note-
I fully recharged my 5 batteries again and then tried the system using the grid to run just the battery charger. I put in a 100 watt load off of the inverter. The voltage dropped pretty quickly in this experiment and could not keep up the charge in the batteries. Like swinG I think that the set up using the grid power may not work.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,903.0.html
Hi free energy,
I dont see what you mean by this link which is known to me but in principle are not comparable to what we talking here except the result. maby you can enlighten me .
greetings
walt
Quote from: FreeEnergy on January 12, 2007, 02:21:41 AM
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,903.0.html
Quote from: Walter Hofmann on January 11, 2007, 05:00:41 PM
Hi,
what kind of connection wire did you use keep in mind I used on my system heave Battery cabel which have a verry low resistance but at the relativly high current it makes a difference and also works like a real resistor in a paralell circuit to evenly distribute the charge to each battery. Just keep in mind a 12 inch pice of AWG # 8 has a resistence with soldered connector of about 31 Ohm, the same lenght of AWG 0/1 regular battery cabel has a resistence with soldered connector of only 9 Ohm. A 3 feet connector kabel AWG # 6 has a resistence of 28 Ohm.
In a system circuit like this one it has a tremendous play what size of connectorwire is used.
greetings
walt
hi,
just sounds like it would be nice to apply the way you transfer energy to the given link. seems to be more efficient.
peace
Thanks Walter- I will keep in mind the wire resistance.
@ ALL
It would seem my setup isn't ideal. I still lose about a volt an hour each time I try just running the inverter and the charger without any extra loads. It is likely my combination of equipment. First off I haven't any 110 volt gear here where I am- could get some but it would be a hassle. Could convert the power but would lose some efficiency again probably. Maybe it's my batteries or maybe its my charger or the inverter or all of them together - I'm just not sure at this point.
How are the rest of you experimenters doing? Anybody have any results to report?
@pg46
I still have only one battery, so I will have to wait until I get one more.
Are you running on 220VAC also?
@ SwinG
Yes, I am also on 220VAC system. I could step down the power with using converters but I am afraid of losing in efficiencies again. I would like to try different battery sizes and also a different battery charger to see if itwill improve the results.
I am just now trying for fun to take the power coming off off the inverter and put it through a simple rectifier to bring it back to DC voltage and recharge the batteries that way instead of using the battery charger.
Will report in if I get any interesting results.
Best,
A friend of mine came over, and I showed him this thread. He has now made his own setup, with two batteries. I have attached some pictures of his setup. For now, it has been running for more than two hours, drawing 300W. The batteries are both 80Ah, so we willl not be sure of OU before after 6.5 hours. He hasn't got a volt meter, so we will have to wait.
@watssup
How are your setup doing. Is it still running, or have you lost interrest?
I noticed that you haven't crossed the inverter input and charger output. If this is of great importance, you system shoulden't be able to work.
@ring_theory
The system you'll sell for $1000, could you ship such system to denmark (without the batteries offcause), and how much loade can you guarantee it will support?
I know you would like to make som money on this idea, but for common bennefit, could you hand out a shopping list of what brand/model of inverter and charger to buy? If not, you don't have to explain.
My friend just stopped the test. The batteries went dead.
He'll try again monday, when he gets som shorter wires for the batteries.
Hi,
If I see the picture right then the batteries and inverter are put in series instead of parallel this is a 24 V setup and with a normal 12V charger the batteries never get charged up to full. both batteries need to be in paralell and the charger put on one batterie and the inverter on the other. further the wire are to small it should be at least AWG 10 or thicker and verry short. did I read the inverter right that it is a 1,500W type? what load is on there?
just wana help from my expierience
greetings
walt
Quote from: SwinG on January 13, 2007, 03:41:15 PM
A friend of mine came over, and I showed him this thread. He has now made his own setup, with two batteries. I have attached some pictures of his setup. For now, it has been running for more than two hours, drawing 300W. The batteries are both 80Ah, so we willl not be sure of OU before after 6.5 hours. He hasn't got a volt meter, so we will have to wait.
@watssup
How are your setup doing. Is it still running, or have you lost interrest?
I noticed that you haven't crossed the inverter input and charger output. If this is of great importance, you system shoulden't be able to work.
@ring_theory
The system you'll sell for $1000, could you ship such system to denmark (without the batteries offcause), and how much loade can you guarantee it will support?
I know you would like to make som money on this idea, but for common bennefit, could you hand out a shopping list of what brand/model of inverter and charger to buy? If not, you don't have to explain.
::) removed by poster
Hi Walter,
is it possible, that
iyou could post a picture of your setup ?
So we can see, with what components you had success.
Many thanks in advance.
Regards, Stefan.
@WsinG
Attention
the "Spyrometer" will shown you WRONG "Power".
Because it can not metering the scare wavers (50Hz) from
the inverter !! Also not if the Inverter is "classified" as an
"modificated Sinus" Inverter !
If your device will running , an the batteries will not go down,
al will be happy (also without "reading" the in an out of internal
power values) .
Some hundreds Watts for light , and no lost volgages in batteries
over some days , that is enougth to find , to see , to belive.
Pese
Hi all,
Great to see a little activity in the thread again. I suppose I'm just using too much time on this.Ã, :D
We are currently about 6 guys here in Denmark, each working or planning on our own setup. So far still no sure positive results, but only two systems have been "online", and neither have met the complete specifications.
I had planned to post a summery, and suggest an approach for pinning down the important parameters, but if you read on, you'll find that post unnessesary for now.
I have begun a new test, and so far it looks pretty nice.
Repport so far:
Battery fully charged at 13.86V
Started test with charger, inverter and 14W light bulb, to see how fast the voltage drops.
02:30 - Voltage drops emidiatly to 13,33V, and started fast decline, and haven't settled yet (2 minutes from start).
02:40 - 12.57V
02:44 - 12.59V
02:51 - 12.59V
03:06 - 12.59V
03:15 - 12.59V
03:20 - 12.59V
03:27 - 12.59V
So, it looks very nice !!!Ã, ;D
Please notice that the voltage actually climed from 12.57V to 12.59V, but I remember the same effect in my first try, where the battery was drained (with 100W bulb).
I'll estimate that total loss in the system is about 25-30W (conservative numbers).
14W bulb + loos in circuit ~16W.
Loss in inverter (rated at <10%): ~2W.
Loss in charger: ~10W (feels pretty warm, charging with 5A).
Loss in wires: ~1W.
:
95A/h battery delivers 12*95 = 1140W/h.
1140W/h / 25W = 45.6h.
Voltage from 12.59V - 10.5V = 2090mV.
2090mV / 45.6h = 45.83mV/h.
With 25W loss, the battery should decline by atleast 40-50mV/hour, considdering the decline linear, if the battery where new, and until now, the voltage has been stable or climing for more than 3/4 hour.
Any comments for the above calculations?
Nothing last forever. Neither free energy.
Update:
03:40 - 12.58V
03:49 - 12.58V
03:59 - 12.57V
But still, it looks like the voltage decline at much slower rate than it would normally do. Or maybe the decline rate is far from linear. Anybody knows?
Time will show.
@Walter Hofmann
The inverter is a 600W inverter. The 1500W is surge power.
@pese
The shown wattage of ~300W matches pretty well the rated wattage of the load, so I think it measures the power OK.
Thank you all for input and suggestions. My testing is far from over.
Update:
04:13 - 12.57V
04:17 - 12.56V
04:22 - 12.56V
04:34 - 12.55V
04:50 - 12.55V
04:57 - 12.54V
09:08 - 12.37V
40mV/h decline is to close to what the battery probably would deliver without the charger. It would be nice to know how much loss there is in the equipment.
Hey SwinG-
Glad you are getting better results now. Can you tell us what is the difference with your setup this time around from the first ones?
Are you still using just one battery?
Best,
hello stefan,
I will do take some picture and post it.
greetings
walter
Quote from: hartiberlin on January 14, 2007, 02:09:57 PM
Hi Walter,
is it possible, that
iyou could post a picture of your setup ?
So we can see, with what components you had success.
Many thanks in advance.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: pg46 on January 15, 2007, 04:10:00 AM
Hey SwinG-
Glad you are getting better results now. Can you tell us what is the difference with your setup this time around from the first ones?
Are you still using just one battery?
Best,
It's the same setup, but I'm not putting so much load on it. Only a 14W flourocent bulb.
I had to disconnect the setup, so now I have stopped the test. But just for the fun of it, I now continue without the charger, to see how fast the voltage declines without the charger.
So far: 12:49 - 12.48V
I think that this system will improve greatly with some more cells added.
Very interesting SwinG
My 5 batteries altogether add up to only 25 amp (5 amp each). I had a 6 watt lamp for a load plus what it took to run the charger and the inverter. So perhaps my system was drawing too many amps for the battery capacity used. Think I was drawing about 72 watts.
Maybe I need bigger batteries or a smaller load?
Keep us posted of your progress
I decided to stop the testing, and fully charge the battery again. To get a comparable starting point.
Does anybody have a link to a discharge curve for a lead acid battery system?
Update:
12:54 - 12.45V
13:02 - 12.44V
13:09 - 12.43V
13:16 - 12.43V
13:21 - 12.42V
13:31 - 12.42V
13:39 - 12.41V - testing stopped. Battery charging from socket.
As you can see, the voltage drops at more or less the same rate (a bit faster now, though). Only difference from this setup to the previous, are the loss in the charger, and the probably larger loss in the inverter at higher load.
Anybody has an idea of how much loss there is in a charger like the one I'm using? Is 10W to much or to little?
@walter
Looking forward to some pictures.
So far, both ring_theory, wattsup and IronHead has been running more load than the inverter was rated for. What kind of inverter was used? Do all of your inverters have overload protection?
My inverter cuts off when the load gets over 300W, so the built in intelligence will prevent the overloading tests.
Hi,
Thanks for the setup ring_theory.
@ swinG:
nice too see you experimenting with this. To get comparible results for your test and controll you will need to start both at the same battery voltage. Also the room needs to be at the same temperature. Then we can get some better results. But looking at the results you have so far, there does seem to be some promise. Be interesting to see results with several batteries, as in ring_theorie's original expriment.
Good luck,
Steve.
lead acid battery
discharge curve
http://www.roboternetz.de/phpBB2/download.php?id=7786
gustav pese
@stevewal2
Thank's for the encouragement. I'm recharging the battery right now, to get a better comparison. Room temp. is steady.
@pese
Thank's for the link!
I looks like the discharge voltage curve for the most part is nearly linear. Very nice, in respect to my results so far.
@SwinG,
maybe someine in your group can get a scope and
measure the pulses output of the battery charger.
You can add an LC lowpassfilter before going into the inverter
from one side of the battery bank, so the inverter always gets
a constant 12 Volts DC without impulses ontop of it, so only
the battery bank is "hit" with pulses from the battery charger.
This way you can make sure, that the inverter is not influenced by
the pulses, the battery charger puts out.
So add a few turns of big sized cable to make a coil out of it and use
Iron as the core of it and use a few big 100.000 uF electrolyte capacitors after the
coils before going into the inverter.
Then you have at the inverter a stable DC voltage with NO pulse "hash" on it.
You can also build your own "better" battery charger, by just using a 230 Volts to
12 to 15 Volts transformer and just use a full wave Graetz bridge behind it to charge
up the battery bank with these full wave rectified sine wave "pulses".
Still better would be to design a square wave pulse charger, like
the ones the people are using to optimize the Hydrogen output from electrolysers.
Have a look around here in the forum.
There are a few circuit diagrams floating around here.
Looking forward to see your results.
And please try first to not load the batteries too much.
It is always better to discharge batteries with low current,
so they last much longer...
So please only use low Wattage load for your tests,
although you have longer to wait to see, if there is
any overunity results with it.
I would go for less than 100 Watts all in all as the total
load for all the tests...
Regards, Stefan.
Hi
my inverter is a 1,000W type 120V and it has the overload protection never cut off.
My two batteries are 850CCAmps trolling batteries with 185 reserve minutes.
If I use my tools most pull about 12A at strat up but go down to about 8.5A. I only use the tools for about 5 to 6 hours what means the charger has about 18 hours to put the charge back. the inverter pulls a average of 30 to 40 A with this load and the charger puts out about 10 to 12A. I took out the circuit from the charger and only use the transformer and rectifier. I also use like mentioned before the heavy gauge batterie connector for the inverter and the batteries and for the charger I use AWG #8 wire.
greetings
walt
Quote from: SwinG on January 15, 2007, 08:19:08 AM
@walter
Looking forward to some pictures.
So far, both ring_theory, wattsup and IronHead has been running more load than the inverter was rated for. What kind of inverter was used? Do all of your inverters have overload protection?
My inverter cuts off when the load gets over 300W, so the built in intelligence will prevent the overloading tests.
Amplified Energy-concept ,
compare these physical process with your system process:
Adam Lorek,DE102004029434 Transformator for wattless work
easier (08/15 materials),but technically same:
Anton jun. Wallner,DE29812556,Apparature for power-amplification of generators
S
dL
I will phone to Mr. Wallner,his concept is interestant for Motor/Generator interconnections ,ML-cascade-amplifier !
@Stefan
Thank's for your help and suggestions. But for now, I am trying to do this with "off the shelf" products.
As I have mentioned previously, I don't think that this system is gonna change the world, but it could force current science to take a closer look. That's why I don't wanna try more specialized setups yet. Cause I don't thing science or media cares about one man, having some kind of wacky system, he claims is OU. But maybe 1000 people with their own working 1000W setup could make a headline or two.
If you could make a working system, without even having your soldering iron fired up, woulden't that be something?
This is not about me getting a free energy system (well, it is, but not primarily), or me making big bucks. It's about getting the "message" out to ordinary average people, that what they have been told at school is not all true.
But, I honestly think that there are far better, cheaper and easyer ways of extracting ZPE. I just don't know them, and average people most certainly don't.
I'm using a 14W bulb as load now, instead of the 100W bulb. When I get more batteries, I'll try with the 100W bulb again.
@Walter Hofmann
Thank's for details. Great.
If I understand you correctly, then you are letting the charger build up lost power over night. If that is correctly understood, then why the need for charging the batteries from the alternator every month or so?
Update:
Startet test. One 14W bulb on the inverter. No charger connected.
22:01 - 13.02V
22:11 - 13.00V
23:11 - 12.91V
23:43 - 12.87V
00:02 - 12.85V
Average of ~85mV/hour from ?fully charged battery. Thats about double the decline rate, than when the charger was plugged in. Though the voltage under this test was ~0.5V higher from start as when the charger was connected, I still see some kind of OU effect. Please remember, that when the charger is not connected, there is no power loss from it, and the inverter probably has more power loss, when the charger is connected too. So, the loss in the system is atlease 5-10W lesser, than with the charger connected.
I have stopped the test again, cause I don't need any more proof at the moment. This is enough for me to go further with this project. I'll buy some more batteries very soon.
I have reconnected the charger, without charging the battery form socket in the meantime, so if I see only ~40mV decline pr. hour again, I would call the experiment a success.
Anybody disagree? ;D
Strange things happens here.
I have attached a sheet with some test results.
When I first connected the 14W bulb without the charger, the voltage decline was about 80mV/h. Then I tried for just ? an hour with just the charger, and no bulb. Then I powered on the bulb again, and saw voltage decline by ~65mV/h.
To make a control run, I then turned off the charger again, and ecpected to see around 80mV/h decline again. But no. Now the battery loaded with just the inverter and the 14W bulb declines with about 20mV/h.
To sum up:
Battery, inverter and bulb for two hours: ~80mV/h decline.
Battery, inverter and charger for ? hour: ~120mV/h decline.
Battery inverter, charger and 14W bulb for ~5 hours: ~65mV/h decline.
Battery inverter and bulb for ~3 hours: ~20mV/h decline.
If this continue, the bulb wil be lit for more than 100 hours without the charger, witch it shoulden't be able to.
I don't understand.
Hi swing
sorry that I maybe confused you, I just mentioned the major appliance and did not mentione that I also have running for more then 8 hours daily my worklite and some small batterie charger for my battery tools. I did not watch after the initial phase for any connceted load. the 4 to 6 week recharge is from the practical expirience and not exactly somtimes I could run it even longer. Like I have explained in the beginning I am not in a competiton just needed practical and usable solution because I dont have much time or money to reasarch for the max on this.
the other part is in my area there are many power outage what can go on for days and this setup is usable even in a garage or lanai without watching for poisioness fums or refill of fuell.
greetings
walt
Quote from: SwinG on January 15, 2007, 06:54:30 PM
@Stefan
Thank's for your help and suggestions. But for now, I am trying to do this with "off the shelf" products.
As I have mentioned previously, I don't think that this system is gonna change the world, but it could force current science to take a closer look. That's why I don't wanna try more specialized setups yet. Cause I don't thing science or media cares about one man, having some kind of wacky system, he claims is OU. But maybe 1000 people with their own working 1000W setup could make a headline or two.
If you could make a working system, without even having your soldering iron fired up, woulden't that be something?
This is not about me getting a free energy system (well, it is, but not primarily), or me making big bucks. It's about getting the "message" out to ordinary average people, that what they have been told at school is not all true.
But, I honestly think that there are far better, cheaper and easyer ways of extracting ZPE. I just don't know them, and average people most certainly don't.
I'm using a 14W bulb as load now, instead of the 100W bulb. When I get more batteries, I'll try with the 100W bulb again.
@Walter Hofmann
Thank's for details. Great.
If I understand you correctly, then you are letting the charger build up lost power over night. If that is correctly understood, then why the need for charging the batteries from the alternator every month or so?
Update:
Startet test. One 14W bulb on the inverter. No charger connected.
22:01 - 13.02V
22:11 - 13.00V
23:11 - 12.91V
23:43 - 12.87V
00:02 - 12.85V
Average of ~85mV/hour from ?fully charged battery. Thats about double the decline rate, than when the charger was plugged in. Though the voltage under this test was ~0.5V higher from start as when the charger was connected, I still see some kind of OU effect. Please remember, that when the charger is not connected, there is no power loss from it, and the inverter probably has more power loss, when the charger is connected too. So, the loss in the system is atlease 5-10W lesser, than with the charger connected.
I have stopped the test again, cause I don't need any more proof at the moment. This is enough for me to go further with this project. I'll buy some more batteries very soon.
I have reconnected the charger, without charging the battery form socket in the meantime, so if I see only ~40mV decline pr. hour again, I would call the experiment a success.
Anybody disagree? ;D
Quote from: Walter Hofmann on January 16, 2007, 05:36:37 AM
Hi swing
sorry that I maybe confused you, I just mentioned the major appliance and did not mentione that I also have running for more then 8 hours daily my worklite and some small batterie charger for my battery tools. I did not watch after the initial phase for any connceted load. the 4 to 6 week recharge is from the practical expirience and not exactly somtimes I could run it even longer. Like I have explained in the beginning I am not in a competiton just needed practical and usable solution because I dont have much time or money to reasarch for the max on this.
the other part is in my area there are many power outage what can go on for days and this setup is usable even in a garage or lanai without watching for poisioness fums or refill of fuell.
greetings
walt
No problemos, Walter.
If your system is still running, could you make a few voltage mesurements, while the system is running?
::) removed by poster
the easier ,Anton jun. Wallner, system :
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=DE29812556U&F=O
go to "Originaldocument" then "drawings":look Figur1(mono-phase)
and think about the description-thesis:
the generator power of 220V/5A is amplified by this
welding-transformer-(feedback)interconnection to a motor-side
220V/30A power output !
S
dL
p.s.: this transformation is not possible with DC equipment !
Conversion would be a need !
hi swing,
sorry but I did not maintaine the system and used the batterie for other projects. But I will put it back together for the picture and maybe if I got time I will fire it up again and then I can take some new measurements.
From the old data the batteries was running thrue a cycle from full around 13.8V down to 11V and back up.
greetings
walt
Quote from: SwinG on January 16, 2007, 05:41:35 AM
Quote from: Walter Hofmann on January 16, 2007, 05:36:37 AM
Hi swing
sorry that I maybe confused you, I just mentioned the major appliance and did not mentione that I also have running for more then 8 hours daily my worklite and some small batterie charger for my battery tools. I did not watch after the initial phase for any connceted load. the 4 to 6 week recharge is from the practical expirience and not exactly somtimes I could run it even longer. Like I have explained in the beginning I am not in a competiton just needed practical and usable solution because I dont have much time or money to reasarch for the max on this.
the other part is in my area there are many power outage what can go on for days and this setup is usable even in a garage or lanai without watching for poisioness fums or refill of fuell.
greetings
walt
No problemos, Walter.
If your system is still running, could you make a few voltage mesurements, while the system is running?
I'm having some problems postin.
I'll post some updates when I get it solved.
Check out my webcam: http://hvaal.himselfandco.dk:8181
Sorry for the poor quality.
@walt
You mean, that whenever the voltage goes low, you can build up the voltage by just letting the charger feed the battery, without any "extra" load?
If that's true, you could make sure to have a working system, if you can make the charger build up the voltage on the battery bank.
I have now connected 4 batteries in parallel, and allraedy have som testresults. It doesn't look to promising. :(
Test log is attached.
I have some dificulties figuring out how the best and fastest way of testing the setup. If walt's statment are correct, then it's easy. If the carger alone can build up the battery bank, then we are home free, but I don't know if I understood him correctly.
Hey SwinG-
Thanks for posting your results. Too bad they weren't a bit more encouraging but nevermind. As you know already that with my components I didn't get good results also. I will like to try further later on though whenever I can pick up some different equipment.
Right now however I am certainly having better results with the "Tesla 4 battery switch"- quite interesting. Since you now have 4 batteries yourself you might want to give it a try yourself sometime. It'd be better I think if you had 4 identical batteries though.
Keep up the good work and thanks for keeping us posted.
Best,
Hi swing,
what voltage you are working with 120 or 240V?
something seeems to be wrong generally because if you got no extra load on it the charger should level out but only after a few hours ( between 4 und 8 hr) I would take the used batterie out because this could be one reason too, it could be as the total voltage was not increased anymore that the use batterie took to much due to the increased internal resistence.
I started with two brandnew batteries like I sayd they have 850CC Amps and trolling kind for marine application.
I could not make real sence of the spredsheat, just take the data every hour.
Let the charger run longer usually if you charge from the grid it takes up to 20 hr with a charger like you got. Try to charge a batterie with htis charger from the grid and look how long it takes and what the endresult on voltage is. If the charger cuts off the charge because the voltage is set to low you got a probleme. the other part could be the inverter if you use 220V I got no idea how this works out because I only work with 120V. My setup start with the big batteries then I got a 1.000W inverter and the charger is without the circuit just the transformer and the rectifier nothing else because the circuit did cut off to early and with this charger I checkt it and it brought up to 18A. it makes a big difference if you got big batteries and a big inverter for the charging because in my case the charger takes allready 240 W ( 120V/2A) now if your inverter takes only 2 A at 220V you allready over the inverter if it takes 2A at 120V then you are allready on critical because this inverters tend to go in a nonlinear curve with the current pulled from the batteries. This means up to about 50% output the drawn current follows a linear path but over this it gets extremly up in my case I did see a jump from 30A by 500W to a wopping 65A at 750W and at the max of 1.000W it did go up to 110A.
Maybe this helps to understand more how this works.
greetings
walt
Quote from: SwinG on January 17, 2007, 10:09:49 AM
@walt
You mean, that whenever the voltage goes low, you can build up the voltage by just letting the charger feed the battery, without any "extra" load?
If that's true, you could make sure to have a working system, if you can make the charger build up the voltage on the battery bank.
I have now connected 4 batteries in parallel, and allraedy have som testresults. It doesn't look to promising. :(
Test log is attached.
I have some dificulties figuring out how the best and fastest way of testing the setup. If walt's statment are correct, then it's easy. If the carger alone can build up the battery bank, then we are home free, but I don't know if I understood him correctly.
Hey you guys, I have tried a new way.
I am using 6 x 12vdc batteries, 5 x 7a and 1 x 4a in series. I'm charging on the right side and supplying the re-charge inverter on the left side. No wire inversions. I am also using another small demand supply inverter running off battery #4 (from the right). I plugged a 110vac fan on fastest turn setting. Measured voltage across all the batteries it is stable at 81.8 volts.
I am using a 600 watts inverter on left side, a 2 - 10 - 50 amp selectable charger set on the 10 amp setting on the right side, and a 175 watt inverter off the battery #4.
I've included a photo and diagram.
RI = Recharge Inverter DI = Demand Inverter BC=Battery Charger
The number after the letter is the battery number.
RI6 - DI4 - BC1
14:21 - 81.3
14:22 - 81.4
14.24 - 81.5
14:26 - 81.6
14.28 - 81.7
14.30 - 81.8
14.35 - 81.8
14:41 - 81.8 (sometimes flickers to 81.9 then stays at 81.8)
Left it running and forgot to take voltage readings.
14:50 - Alarms on both inverters.
14:50 - Switched to other batteries on the bank. RI5 - DI3
15:01 - 82.3
15:03 - 82.3
15:05 - 82.2
15:08 - 82.1
15:11 - 82.0
15:13 - 81.9
15:16 - 81.8
15:18 - 81.7
15:20 - 81.6
15:22 - 81.5
15:24 - 81.4
Alarm on DI3 - switched to DI2.
15:25 - 81.5
15:26 - 81.6
15:27 - 81.7
15:31 - 81.7 flickers to 81.8
15:38 - 81.6
15:40 - 81.5
15:42 - 81.4
15:43 Alarm on RI5.
The charger inverter went on alarm and I have been trying to figure out why. I thought it was because the voltage on that battery #5 went to low, but here are the voltages per battery.
Battery voltages
Bat # - voltage
6 - 13.55 Left side
5 - 13.73
4 - 13.59
3 - 13.63
2 - 13.83
1 - 14.71 Right Side
Total calculated voltage accross the bank 83.04 vdc
Actual measured voltage accross the bank 84.7 vdc.
I think the problem is the voltage went too high and the inverter is cutting off. I put a dc bulb onto battery #6 to bring down the voltage. When it gets down to 12 volts. I will try to continue the test. Otherwise I may have to find another inverter.
Here is what I have noticed. Eventually although the voltage accross the battery bank has not decreased dramatically, the battery voltage of the batteries connected to the inverters falls to an alarm level and stops the inverter. I just plug the inverter to another battery on the bank and the total voltage is still around the 81.8 level and the system continues to work.
Maybe a voltage sensing and switching system should be used to switch the loads onto alternating series batteries in order to share the load. This makes certain batteries at low voltage that can sweep in the charging 10 amps.
Ideally I'd have to use several voltage meters and amp meters to check what is going on but it is not normal. I was expecting the batteries to be very low, but on the contrary, they are all at full charge.
If you have an extra inverter and three or more batteries, see if this way will work better.
Also, it is important to match the Recharging Inverter to the charger demand.
Also, under the parallel system there is no difference if you plug the charger on opposing terinals since the batteries are in parallel.
Hi swing,
this link is dangerous as I click the link it stript my screen from everythings and did not come back , I had to restart my machine and this twice.
I thought I tell you before something worth is happening.
greetings
walt
Quote from: SwinG on January 17, 2007, 10:07:56 AM
I'm having some problems postin.
I'll post some updates when I get it solved.
Check out my webcam: http://hvaal.himselfandco.dk:8181
Sorry for the poor quality.
Quote from: Walter Hofmann on January 18, 2007, 04:55:38 AM
Hi swing,
this link is dangerous as I click the link it stript my screen from everythings and did not come back , I had to restart my machine and this twice.
I thought I tell you before something worth is happening.
greetings
walt
[/quote]
Walter , Update your Java console .
Hi walt,
Thanks for your comments, and details.
I'm using 220VAC (sometimes called 230VAC or 240VAC).
Would you recommend to use an old "boat anchor" charger instead of an electronic one?
If you don't use a charger with overcharge cut off, woulden't you overcharge the batteries? My current charger is a constant voltage charger. It charges up to 14.1V, and the current drops all the way from 12 to 14.1V. So it takes a long time to charge the batteries, as you also said.
About the loss in the invert. It says in the specs. for the inverter that the loss is <10%. That clearly isn't the case with your inverter. But, I don't know if the specs are correct.
Yes, it is a bit of a problem, that we don't really know if this concept is doable on a 220VAC system. Hopefully time will show.
Sorry about the link. I'm not aware of the problem. I don't really know what to do about it at the moment. I'm thinking to just stream pictures to a webserver instead, so it won't kill my bandwidth. That would also take care of your problem.
Hi wattsup,
Thank's for your interesting post. Nice to see some messing around with the concept. ;D
I don't really see the smart thing in the setup. When the batteries are connected in series, the charge won't level out between the batteries, as far as I know. You are charging one battery, and loading two others, and then you switch the load between the batteries. The batteries doesn't work together the same way when connected in series.
This small rise in voltage in some tests is probably because the cells takes some time to adjust when they are applied load. I have had the same effect, but as in your tests, the voltages starts to drop again after some minutes.
Could you try to measure the voltage on the DI and RI when the alarm goes off before you turn it off and switch to another battery (if you can stand the freaking noise)?
How much power does the fan consume? If it's around 20W, then one battery would run for more than 3 hours, before it surrenders. Your whole experiment have run for total of 1h 22m. That's not enough to even drain one battery alone.
And your charger. Is it an electronic type, or an old trafo type.
I have attached a scope shot one of my friends did. He is using the same charge as I do. Don't know if andybody can get something out of it.
I'm still charging my batteries. I'll try a setup without the used battery next, to see if that makes any difference.
Quote from: wattsup on January 17, 2007, 07:15:17 PM
Hey you guys, I have tried a new way.
I am using 6 x 12vdc batteries, 5 x 7a and 1 x 4a in series. I'm charging on the right side and supplying the re-charge inverter on the left side. No wire inversions. I am also using another small demand supply inverter running off battery #4 (from the right). I plugged a 110vac fan on fastest turn setting. Measured voltage across all the batteries it is stable at 81.8 volts.
I am using a 600 watts inverter on left side, a 2 - 10 - 50 amp selectable charger set on the 10 amp setting on the right side, and a 175 watt inverter off the battery #4.
.........
Also, it is important to match the Recharging Inverter to the charger demand.
Also, under the parallel system there is no difference if you plug the charger on opposing terinals since the batteries are in parallel.
Hi wattsup,
nice setup,
but how should all the batteries be charged,
if you don?t apply any charge back to all of them in series ?
You could maybe hook more batteries ( e.g. 19 pieces) in series,
so that you get about 230 Volts
DC all in all and then the inverter with a rectified graetz bridge
at the output to pulse this rectified 230 Volts output of the inverter
onto the series battery bank.
Also then you could use a different battery charger,
one, that just pulses the 230 Volts DC into a 1:1.2 transformer and
thus tries to pulse just about 250 Volts DC pulses with a few Khz
onto the batteries in series...
Then you also need no battery charger, just this pulser.
YOu can then use directly the 230 Volts DC to drive lamp loads.
Okay, for AC usage you would still need something like a 230 Volts DC to 230 Volts AC
converter..
Regards, Stefan.
Hi swing,
hmmm like I sayd I got no idea if it or how it could work with 220V.
I only can talk from my rig, I never expirienced any overloading, because the maximum voltage what this transformer can provide is 14.2V what is not dangerous for the batteries but with taking out the electronic it did charge with a higher current on demand up to 18Amps because the current is it actually what is demanded from the inverter.
This specs from the inverter are not accurate because htey try to go on the safe side. the losss of 10% should actually be about 15 to 20%, but this says nothing about the pulled current thats why I did actually measure it and was surprise about the numbers how much it pulles in reality at some loads.
I would recommend that you measure the pulled current 1. from the charger and 2nd from the inverter because there could be something wrong too.
The other part is your verry smal batteries are not realy comparable.
greetings
walt
Quote from: SwinG on January 18, 2007, 08:03:35 AM
Hi walt,
Thanks for your comments, and details.
I'm using 220VAC (sometimes called 230VAC or 240VAC).
Would you recommend to use an old "boat anchor" charger instead of an electronic one?
If you don't use a charger with overcharge cut off, woulden't you overcharge the batteries? My current charger is a constant voltage charger. It charges up to 14.1V, and the current drops all the way from 12 to 14.1V. So it takes a long time to charge the batteries, as you also said.
About the loss in the invert. It says in the specs. for the inverter that the loss is <10%. That clearly isn't the case with your inverter. But, I don't know if the specs are correct.
Yes, it is a bit of a problem, that we don't really know if this concept is doable on a 220VAC system. Hopefully time will show.
Sorry about the link. I'm not aware of the problem. I don't really know what to do about it at the moment. I'm thinking to just stream pictures to a webserver instead, so it won't kill my bandwidth. That would also take care of your problem.
Hi wattsup,
Thank's for your interesting post. Nice to see some messing around with the concept. ;D
I don't really see the smart thing in the setup. When the batteries are connected in series, the charge won't level out between the batteries, as far as I know. You are charging one battery, and loading two others, and then you switch the load between the batteries. The batteries doesn't work together the same way when connected in series.
This small rise in voltage in some tests is probably because the cells takes some time to adjust when they are applied load. I have had the same effect, but as in your tests, the voltages starts to drop again after some minutes.
Could you try to measure the voltage on the DI and RI when the alarm goes off before you turn it off and switch to another battery (if you can stand the freaking noise)?
How much power does the fan consume? If it's around 20W, then one battery would run for more than 3 hours, before it surrenders. Your whole experiment have run for total of 1h 22m. That's not enough to even drain one battery alone.
And your charger. Is it an electronic type, or an old trafo type.
I have attached a scope shot one of my friends did. He is using the same charge as I do. Don't know if andybody can get something out of it.
I'm still charging my batteries. I'll try a setup without the used battery next, to see if that makes any difference.
This is a nice charger unit:
http://www.tunecharger.com/download-28717.htm
Highly recommended !
Michel is now designing a 50 Watts version !
Have a look at his homepage, you can also find
all documents there, but the kits are easier to build !
You can also read the first page of the new
Bedini page, to get some understanding, how to avoid
to discharge the battery:
http://www.icehouse.net/john34/bedinibearden.html
Also watch the movies from Bearden:
http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-4390212369275295676
http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=6926340061102418615
Regards, Stefan.
@all
My RI blew. Sounds like an embolism, but it's only the re-charge inverter. I must have shorted it or overloaded it with 80 vdc or something.
Stuck with my small but trusty (touch wood) 175 watt inverter and the charger.
Anyways, while planning my next tests, I decided to try something else. I took a 15.7 mfd 270 vac capacitor (I have these because I am also doing some testing with electric motors, etc.) and put it in parrallel with my 12vdc 4 amp battery, then I connected a small 12vdc bulb in parallel that draws only 150mA. I have let this since last night and tonight the voltage has not dropped, on the contrary, it has gone up about 0.48 volts.
Has anyone every tried this, or is it to simple to be true. I am thinking of adding some more caps and increase the load to see whats happens.
Here's a photo.
@SwinG
I'm just trying to confirm that your RI is a 300 watt unit, and your charger is a 10 amp unit (without any other amp settings). What is the voltages.
Also, what is the actual voltage comming out of your charger without it being connected to a battery to charge.
Can you do an amps test between the charger positive and battery positive.
Then add a second battery and check the amps. Then another and another.
Watch out with amps if doing with your regular meter. I just blew my fuse twice and have to get more. I'm getting a real amp meter.
Hi Wattsup,
interesting experiment !
If you would have seen the new Bearden Video
energy from the vaccuum,
you can understand why your circuit might work.
It is about the dipole always converting free photons
to electricity, when I have understood it correctly...
Use only low current loads, that is the idea and never distroy the
dipole and pulse current back to the battery...
Regards, Stefan.
First, I forgot to mention that the scopeshot in my last post is from the charger. The charger charges with the shown pattern. I'm not sure of the grid division, and my freind is not used to handling scopes.
@walt
I know it's hard to help, and I'm dead happy for the time you use . Based on my latest tests amd mesurements, I'm convinced that at least my charger is not fitting the concept. I'll go and get another one tomorrow, or next week.
@Stefan
Watched the videos. I know a bit about T. Bearden, but the two videos was unknown to me. He does a desent job in trying to explain what energy from the vacum is all about. Thank
s for the links!
I'll go a get another charger. I'll prefer if I could use an of the shelf charger, before I go into bulding one, or buying special curcuits.
@wattsup
I have made some mesaurements that might satisfie your questions:
12V/220VAC 300W inverter.
10A max electronic charger, with overcharge protection.
14W compact flourocent bulb
100W insadent bulb
Current (A) Voltage (V) Power (W)
Inverter with no load
Inverter 0,23 12,49 2,87
Charger connected
Inverter 5,18 12,41 64,28
Charging 3,32 12,45 41,33
14W CF bulb connected
Inverter 1,31 12,44 16,30
Charger and 14W bulb connected
Inverter 5,78 12,40 71,67
Charging 3,17 12,42 39,37
100W bulb
Inverter 9,59 12,3 117,96
Charger and 100W bulb
Inverter 10,2 12,26 125,05
Charging 1,8 12,3 22,14 22,14
note: When mesauring the current draw to inverter through the multimeter, the charger amp meter shows 0A. But when putting the inverter cable directly on the battery pole connector, the charger amp meter jumps to ~2A
In general, the charger behaves strange. And my multimeter is also a bit of a laugh. I don't think the mesurements are that usefull.
I have made the page with an image updating automatically.
It uses flashplayer, so hopefully we will have no more computer crashes.
http://loosechange.dk/OU/
It updates every 10 seconds.
Quote from: SwinG on January 19, 2007, 11:31:02 PM
First, I forgot to mention that the scopeshot in my last post is from the charger. The charger charges with the shown pattern. I'm not sure of the grid division, and my freind is not used to handling scopes.
Yes,it was a strange waveform,
the upper spikes seems to be okay, but why are there the spikes that go below
12 Volts ?
Quote
@Stefan
Watched the videos. I know a bit about T. Bearden, but the two videos was unknown to me. He does a desent job in trying to explain what energy from the vacum is all about. Thank
s for the links!
This new video of Bearden is really much better:
http://www.energyfromthevacuum.com/
I really like it.
He explains it, how a system can be build, which
works like a heatpump, but uses charges from the environment to
give additional energy into a battery system and only need low
power for this pumping, so we have a total more power output.
He also explains very nicely the difference between efficiency
and COP.
Quote
I'll go a get another charger. I'll prefer if I could use an of the shelf charger, before I go into bulding one, or buying special curcuits.
The best charger for a battery is the one,
that draws in additional free electrons from the surrounding environment !
You have to get additional energy into the battery from the outside environment !
I envision to build a system, where I just use 2 high voltage stepup circuits.
Each circuit is constantly "firing" sparks onto the electrodes of the battery.
If you create positive charged metal piece with more than 1 KVolt voltage and
let it come near a bigger metal plate, then electrons will jump the airgap and
discharge the positive potential.
The big plate has now lost electrons in its metal structure and needs again
electrons to be neutral again.
So free electrons from the surrounding jump now onto the plate and put it again
into neutral equilibrium state.
This effect can be used to charge up each electrode of a battery
seperately.
The "pumping" energy needed to do this can bemade very low power,
but when we make these 2 big plates very big, they can collect many charges
from the environment and put these charges into the battery additionaly,
when the spark jumps from the plate reservoir onto the electrodes
of the batteries.
So again in detail.
We need 2 Voltage stepup systems like these one used for running
fluorescent lights from a 12 Volts battery, like these "modding" driver devices where you normally attach
cold fluorescent lamps onto a 12 Volts PC power supply.
These driver circuits could be used.
They are pretty efficient.
These are 12 Volts to about 1000 Volts DC pulses converter drivers.
You need 2 of them.
One is used is used for the negative electrode of a 12 Volt battery and the otheris used
for the positive electrode of the battery.
You need to put the high voltage positive output of the first driver output to the positive 12 Volt
pole of the battery, so the positive high voltage pulses can jump via a very small airgap
(about 0.1 mm) onto the positive electrode of the battery. A graphite rod is recommended to do this.
The other pole of the first High Voltage driver output you have to connect to a large piece of alufoil
and hang it onto your balcony or somewhere outdoors, where nobody can touch it !
( Be safe and cautious , there is high voltage on it ! Don?t let anybody touch it !
It could kill you.. !)
The same you are doing with the second high Voltage driver circuit, but this time you take
the negative high voltage output of it and put it via a graphite sparkgap onto the negative
pole of the battery.Its positive high voltage output is connected to a second
big alufoil,which will be hung again isolated from the other into the air outdoors !
The 2 alufoils should not touch and should be a few meters away from each other !
So now you have 2 spark gaps running and sparking and each pole of the 12 Volt battery
gets charges "spark-fired" onto it and thus the battery can charge up from all
these charges !
As there is not a closed circuit for these charge collectors, the charges are just collected
from the 2 alufoils and spark-fired onto the battery electrodes.
This way, you only need a small pumping power to run these driver circuits
and can collect massive free charges from the environment to charge up your battery.
It would be good, if you use a 2nd battery first, to supply the power for these 2
driver circuits and switch the batteries , when the charge battery is full.
This way you don?t fry the high voltage driver circuits with their own high voltage pulses.
So this would be one way to build a "electrial heat pump" and
to use the environment to charge up the battery.
We just create with a little pumping power a potential sink, so all
the charges can flow into the battery from the environment.
When I have again more free time I will try something like this.
A higher Voltage will always help to get more charges flowing and
the bigger the airgap distance is, the better it will be.
Regards, Stefan.
@all
i remember that i seen circuits like this 6 years ago.
so i find kippper s motor again.
please look also to this :
http://groups.google.de/groups?q=kippers+motor+not+working+work&hl=de&lr=&sa=X&oi=groups&ct=title
1. and 4. link of them.
Pese
::) removed by poster
will await ...
Bedini , Ed Gray
possibly also
Pese
Quote from: ring_theory on January 21, 2007, 10:56:28 PM
Quote from: pese on January 21, 2007, 02:01:38 PM
@all
i remember that i seen circuits like this 6 years ago.
so i find kippper s motor again.
please look also to this :
http://groups.google.de/groups?q=kippers+motor+not+working+work&hl=de&lr=&sa=X&oi=groups&ct=title
1. and 4. link of them.
Pese
this don't even compare. You obviously havn't read the title or thread. the 110v system actually works! the 220vac version hasn't faired so well but i will resolve that problem. however kippers motor was of the mechanical type. I could post a mechanical trinket for you die hard overunity debunkers to ponder at.
Yes, the Kipper System is electrical to mechanical to electrical,
so it is very different.
@ring_theory,
maybe you can post a picture of your real setup ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
::) removed by poster
Hi Ring_theory
Well Im not a "die hard overunity debunker" but I would like to see the mechanical trinket.
Thanks
Kind regards
::) removed by poster
::) removed by poster
Hi ring theorie,
I just wana tell you , dont be surprised if you use new parts instead of the old ones that it may not performe like with the old ones or not at all. I am talking from expirience.
greetings
walt
Quote from: ring_theory on January 22, 2007, 08:24:22 PM
Quote from: hartiberlin on January 22, 2007, 03:07:45 AM
@ring_theory,
maybe you can post a picture of your real setup ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
I've been putting off building a demonstration rig for my van till i can get some new components. I want to have a professional looking rig for demonstrations. with nice looking connectors etc. I also don't have much in the test equipment way meaning a watt meter, o-scope, or any other test equipment to give readings that will be demanded here. all I have is one volt/ohm meter.
A friend of mine says build it anyways, and just "tell them that if it works this good using used and antiquated components imagine how well it would work with new and state of the art components." He's got a point. However I'm trying to sell these things and old and antiquated components doesn't show my workmanship. especially when the battery charger face is falling off. I ran it over, goofy me.
I may do it anyways i have a few motorhome/RV lots i would like to visit to generate some sales of this.
Newer microchip controlled and sensor protected chargers / inverters do no not work ,from what I have found.
My old inverter seems to be way over built and the charger I'm using is an older Timer 10 amp charger with the time bypassed.
Straight 10 amp , No power factor drops and so on.
You might try what I am doing with the old stuff .That is, build a nice case with meters and such built in. Or even buy a sufficient
size premade project box.
However you go about it good luck all.
@ W.H.
Yes that is it.
The modern inverter have not sinus output ( square wave or "modified sinus" , that is
only an "word" to sell this devices better!). i say it before, it is a different to have an sine 50 or 60 hz Inverter , with bir iron/copper transformer to an new modern "lowercost "High frequency switching inverter with added 50/60 Hz "former" . If this "device" was working
jears ago , and possibly in only "one singel" construction , that it "can" be taht the
SINE -Output , compare "harmonic" to the "sine" input frome the charger , and will produce "eventually" Overunity .
In this way also "some" mechanical devices are working properly ...
(if the frequencies run "harmonic" and not with lost again each other - same
is valid vor TPU?s)
This will be an "hard work" or "fortune" to find THIS out.
Pese
::) removed by poster
it is correct but if it say sine - this inverts are "modificated sine" (so the instruction papers)
that say that the dodificates sine , will make from starecase
wit on (somtimes alse more) step to hight and to down.
thet are steps , tat make pulse , if motors transormers an so on will be driven with that !)
Not anyy devicewill work proberly with this , also some elecronic devices will not work !!
Are shure , that i know this inverters , i have over years repaired , also design (alsothe oldone with Power germanium transistors and Transformer , that can make "proper SINE".
I have to say ONLY : It "can" be made an difference to use
This or ANOTHER Inverter to drive your charger.
I CAN?T say , that the one or the other will worf in the "offered"
scematics.
Gustav Pese
I just bought a Schwinn S750 Electric Scooter. This is a 36 volt system with 750 watt DC motor and 30 amp controller.
I think this is a good test bed to work on for the technology presented in this thread.
The concept to power a car starts here at a more affordable level then scaling to the future.
I have done enough experimenting to know it works ,based on a full replication of the first post by
ring_theory .
There will be two very distinct ways of drawing power .
1: Direct DC from battery pack at 36 volts
2: Replace the DC motor with a comparable AC motor and
drawing power from the AC inverter.
All measuring equipment will be mounted on the scooter for in motion under load diagnostics
All pictures and diagnostics of the system will be posted to this thread.
Thank you
Iron head I'm quite excited to hear about your new test rig!
I would recomend riding it arround a bit to get baseline stats
of the initial out of box set up, that way you will be able to
determine if it is more or less efficient then the initial set up is.
Only after draining the battery a few times in the default
config would I start altering the configuration to prove gains.
Good luck!!!
~Dingus
That is correct . I have a Garmin Legend GPS mounted to the handle bars this little baby tells me speed, distance travailed,time traveled and a few other neat thing. . Also outfitted with a Fluke Scopemeter 123 , Fluke 43B Power Quality Analyzer along with dedicated to battery ampmeter.
So these reading are first thing on the stock scooter over and over till I see stability.
Need a primer to start with.
Any suggestions please throughum in there..
Thank you for the support
::) removed by poster
@ring..
I have nothing against your understandig the electronics.
I learned this over 50 years,
and have "open mind".
i will await and see.
to increase my knowledge
Pese
Why the 220v version cost 2 time more ?
If the same power ratings (from inverter and charger)?
Both cost you te same money ! Unbelivebal !
::) removed by poster
Why not just use one 220vac charger and one 220vac inverter ?
They are very common ,and about the same price as 120vac products
for instance:
http://www.voltageconverters.com/220_volt_power_inverters.html
Also bridging will give you 60 hz still . I beleave in other contries we are talking about 220VAC at 50 Hz , Correct ?
Ok anyway
The Platform .
Logging starts today.
Hi pese ,
thats exactly what I sayd long time ago this stair waye is exactly what brings this work to what it gives. My unit worked for more then 1 year at my workshop till I finally had my grid power up.
like I also sayd back then that I took out the circuit from the charger just used the transformer and the rectifier and it worked perfect.
Like you sayd the whole sytem will not work with most electronic devices even the charger circuit can not work properly.
just my two cents.
greetings
walt
Quote from: pese on January 26, 2007, 06:19:36 AM
it is correct but if it say sine - this inverts are "modificated sine" (so the instruction papers)
that say that the dodificates sine , will make from starecase
wit on (somtimes alse more) step to hight and to down.
thet are steps , tat make pulse , if motors transormers an so on will be driven with that !)
Not anyy devicewill work proberly with this , also some elecronic devices will not work !!
Are shure , that i know this inverters , i have over years repaired , also design (alsothe oldone with Power germanium transistors and Transformer , that can make "proper SINE".
I have to say ONLY : It "can" be made an difference to use
This or ANOTHER Inverter to drive your charger.
I CAN?T say , that the one or the other will worf in the "offered"
scematics.
Gustav Pese
::) removed by poster
it do nothing (no difference) for
the charger and his retifier diodes , IF them will powered with 50 or 60 hz
Pese
Quote from: lancaIV on January 16, 2007, 12:52:15 PM
the easier ,Anton jun. Wallner, system :
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=DE29812556U&F=O
go to "Originaldocument" then "drawings":look Figur1(mono-phase)
and think about the description-thesis:
the generator power of 220V/5A is amplified by this
welding-transformer-(feedback)interconnection to a motor-side
220V/30A power output !
S
dL
p.s.: this transformation is not possible with DC equipment !
Conversion would be a need !
On 29.01.07 I phoned to A.j.Wallner and he told me that his concept is
operable,but has to be grounded !
The power output of his prototype has been in the 220V/16A range
and only with mono-phase equipment !
Without grounding there has been a neutralizing feedback of the hoped effect !
Quote from: lancaIV on January 31, 2007, 04:36:12 PM
On 29.01.07 I phoned to A.j.Wallner and he told me that his concept is
operable,but has to be grounded !
The power output of his prototype has been in the 220V/16A range
and only with mono-phase equipment !
Without grounding there has been a neutralizing feedback of the hoped effect !
Hi Lanca,
Has the inventor told you which side of the mono-phase set-up has to be grounded? The generator side on the left or the motor side on the right?
Or: the transformer primary coil or the secondary coil is to be grounded perhaps? Have you asked these?
Thanks for sharing this info, sounds interesting (and misterious).
Gyula
Hallo gyula,
desculpa me,
mas neste momento nos somos a constituir uma empresa,
por essa razao eu nao tenho muito tempo !
Anton jun. Wallner spoke about grounding of the motor-side !
Ate breve
de Lan?a
p.s.: http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=DE3900890&F=08QPN=DE3900890
Eu falo com o Sr. von Heyer,
ele explicava me que o sistema so trabalha quando a entrada nao ultrapassa
de 7Hz para 1Hz ,mas melhor 1/4 Hz !
Above: Overheating risk !
Hi Lanca,
Thanks for the infos. I wish you good luck for your *empresa nova*.
I think the reason for von Heyer's machine to work better at the lower Hz region (<1Hz) is that at such a low frequency eddy current loss cannot manifest so much.
rgds, Gyula
Hello gyula,
denomina?ao (registo comercial) : Enerciencia Energia Lda.
Sede,escritorios (estabelecidos) : Lisboa,V.N.Gaia
Ate proxima
de Lan?a
I am still waiting on parts to be delivered .
Quote from: IronHead on February 08, 2007, 10:33:23 AM
I am still waiting on parts to be delivered .
Have you already started on your scooters baseline measurements? I'm most excited to see your results, you should show some lifetime gain based on others claims of running workshops and campers on this system for weeks. If you have good logs on the scooters lifetime and power averages without the system, you'll be able to determine the gains or losses with a simple ratio once the system is installed. I wish you all the best on your experiments! Don't forget though more weight will drain more power, so you may want to try to remove as much dead weight from your components as possible.
~Dingus
The scooter has been reconfigured from stock 36vdc at 750 watt to 48vdc at 1000 watt . Battery configuration is 4x 12ah 12vdc series. Now achieving 25 mph form stock at 15mph.
I am getting from a full charge ,10 to 12 miles flat out constant full throttle with 180 Lbs payload. Winds at 0 to 4 mph. All test were preformed in a cross wind.
This test was run 6 times .These results will be posted at a later date with any new results in a more organized fashion.
::) removed by poster
It's going well but slow.
I am building everything from the ground up , charger and inverter.
I found out Quasi single pulse per phase is the way to go.
Just about finished with the inverter build ,but at a standstill waiting on more parts.
The variable pulse charger is also nearly complete.
The platform (Scooter) has been modded out abit to create a better test bed than a stock scooter.
If this works out as well as the bench test . I will be doing an all electric full size
motorcycle next. This will include a pulse motor that I designed.
Thanks
Startup and study of a three battery system. 600 watt transformer type Quasi inverter .
Charger is transformer and rectifier type no caps. Charger adjustable pulse system not installed yet.
Just getting started with 2x performance. More to come!
Just Build It!
IronHead
Quote from: IronHead on February 23, 2007, 09:22:54 AM
Just getting started with 2x performance. More to come!
Just Build It!
IronHead
Ironhead,
Any additional info?
Kent
Hello everyone,
I'm new to the forum and would like to give this a try. Before I go out and purchase an inverter and maybe another charger, I'd like to see if the charger I have is workable? I have a Schauer Battery Charger that'll do 6-volt, 12-volt and deep cycle. I only have deep cycle batteries that came out of a UPS for a data center. I do have 5 available for this test - they are rated at 12v @ 134Ah each. I take it I want to have the charger set on automatic/maintenance free/12volt. I've also seen new chargers - called smart chargers that use high frequency pulsing to charge - is that more appropriate for this setup?
Now for the inverter - it looks to me like I can use any size? Is there any kind of inverter that I should stay away from? I'm thinking about a 300 - 600 watt inverter to start with.
I'll be happy to post pictures of this once I get this set up. Any comments or suggestions are welcome.
Best regards,
Lutherg
Sorry guys . I have had little luck with this system working proper as stated in the first
post of this thread by ring_theory. I have tried every configuration I could come up with and nothing seems to work. Pure Sine Wave , Quasi Sine , Modified Sine Inverters. Also pulse and non pulse chargers. All of these test have been wired in all ways possible.
The first few times I did this I thought I had it working ,but later found it not to be true. This was due to false peak battery charge readings.
Has anyone else tried with any other results than mine?
::) removed by poster
Can you explain this process?
He's talking about anealing the copper to make it softer. It tends to self-harden over time and get brittle.
Perhaps it has an electrical effect, but I've never heard of it.
Looking at Tesla's "bird on a wire" story and this is the only way I can see an arrangement like this working.
::) removed by poster
Quote from: ring_theory on May 09, 2007, 01:03:13 PM
From what I understand of the "annealing in air" process is to heat treat the wire in air. this may be as simple as taking a torch to unshielded copper wire. I have read that there is a pulsed method as well. Possibly simple as heating the wire by putting enough current through it to reach annealing temp. As for what annealing does for the wire is either increase the ppm of oxygen in the copper or decrease it. I'm not sure but from what i have seen on a couple sites is that the copper actually crystalizes to an extent noted on the surface of the copper.
Query, annealing in air, annealing copper in air, annealing process.
Terry,
"Softening or annealing of cold worked copper is accomplished by heating to a temperature that causes recrystallization and, if maximum softening is desired, by heating well above the recrystallization temperature to cause grain growth. Method of heating, furnace design, furnace atmosphere, and shape of work piece are important, because they affect uniformity of results, finish, and cost of annealing.
Generally, two annealed tempers are available: light anneal, which is performed at a temperature slightly above the recrystallization temperature, and soft anneal, which is performed several hundred degrees higher, at a temperature just below the point at which rapid grain growth begins.
When annealing copper that contains oxygen, the hydrogen in the atmosphere must be kept to a minimum to avoid embrittlement. For temperatures lower than about 480oC, hydrogen preferably should not exceed 1%.
The most simple method to do a copper anneal process, is the usage of a clean convection oven with an integrated HEPA filter. The oven can be used for temperatures between 100?C and 450?C. The atmosphere is inert gas (nitrogen).
By enlarging the grain size, the conductivity of the copper increases."
However, you would not want to do this yourself. Copper wire comes with an
insulating varnish on it that would be destroyed if heated to these temperatures.
What you could do is buy "soft drawn" copper wire.
Quote from: i_ron on May 09, 2007, 10:25:19 PM
Quote from: ring_theory on May 09, 2007, 01:03:13 PM
What you could do is buy "soft drawn" copper wire.
Gee I'm sorry Terry, just a couple of facts and I killed the group.
Ron
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::) removed by poster
hey guys sorry to barge in
after numerous calculations and synthesys>>> i think i found us a way to get real free energy
>> stay tuned
i will be needing as much feedback as possible from you
lets do it together
i guess that this is the purpose of this forum anyway
i stand on grounds that >> many of our predecessors have opened ways but they all got stuck in their single lined research thus were unable to see the bigger picture
please feel free to join in
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3029.new.html#new
any contextual input will be welcomed
thanks in advance
The only accurate and intelligent statement I seein the entire thread so far is this:
"cause this is kind of a thing that a 6 year old would think of"
I'm astounded at the enthusiasm shown for such stupidity! Even the "inventor" is so embarrassed about his dumb idea that he has removed every one of his posts!
please bont be so rude Humbugger
actually from wat i ve seen so far, it was a quite nice long shot >>> too long though but still nice
sometimes we get super ideas and sometimes less super ideas >> thats life
i bet it happens to you too
in fact ring_theory came across some interesting byproducts and thats most interesting
Rude? What is rude is a newbie plastering his spam messages everywhere saying he has a new approach to overunity and then having nothing there except babbling. Now that is rude ~ know anyone that fits that description, eh vondesastre?
For anyone not understanding this, simply look up vondesastre's posts...you will see that they are all virtually identical and tell people to go to his thread. When you go there, you find nothing but blather...no disclosure of an actual approch for ou, no machine suggested, nothing but philosophical semantics...
Von Disaster, I say BAH HUMBUG! YOU ARE A SPAMMER WITH NOTHING TO OFFER!
sorry
my bad
i have no defence for that
i guess i did do a little too much in trying to get someone people to hop in
i just got carried away a bit too soon with no intent what so ever to spam
sorry again if i hurt someones feelings
never the less it doesnt change what i said in my earlier posts nor wat am writing in my thread
am still in the testing phase and have many experiments spread apart and it take some time to get them all in a single working machine and in fact am willing to share all my discoveries first hand with you
everything shall fall in public domain and anyone is invited to add some input everything is open for discution
i cant do this on my own and never sayd to have all the answers in the world either
please be patient as it takes some time to put every thing i find on the internet especially for someone who is not used to writing and i know that for the moment it doesnt make much sense but i'l be getting to that as soon as possible
and dear Humbugger >>> from a rude person to another rude person >> lets just burry the axe of war and start working together
thanks for your understanding
wattsup said:
Quote
...But, I then completely removed the 110 volt bulb, and instead, as the photo shows, I put one 12V-150MA bulb plus one 12V vehicle license plate light directly onto the batteries. Both lights have been lighting for the last 2 hours and the voltage across the batteries has remained steady at 12.08 VDC.
Call it what you will, this design is in fact lighting the bulb and is not dropping in voltage. There are no outside connections.
>>The two smaller light bulbs are drawing considerably less power than the 100W bulb or floodlamp. One would expect the voltage to drop at a slower rate the second time if less power was drawn off the source, right?
Suppose you had an intermediate power drain scheme to determine if a timed average period was being drawn off by an intermediate power drain? Or time the smaller bulb(s) with a clock over a more lengthy period to see if there's a correlation beteen a large drain compared to a small one?
[/quote]