This friction heater I have built costs me around 5 cents a hour to run @ 14 cents a kilowatt. The inside temp of my house is at 70F day and night, the out side is around 30F to 10F. That would be a delta T between 40F and 60F. My house is around 1250 sq. ft.
Here is my youtube Chanel where I post my videos on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQjPSsIWDvg&feature=plcp
Did you make this from scratch or did you have plans?
Norman
Hi oilpiggy,
thanks for sharing your friction heater build.
It looks very well built and you have some very impressive results. I have a friend who built one a few years ago but does not seem to have as good of results you have.
I'll send him the link to your topic and maybe you can give him some pointers on modifications he can make to get better results. His name is Rick. We both live in Canada and were involve in the build using Rick's machine shop setup in his garage.
Rick's rotor has about 12 of 8" perforated steel disk that he pressed a wave pattern in the disk to create more friction. He filled it with ATF but the motor could not turn it for long before the motors thermal switch would kick in. So he tried it with Diesel and had better results but the heat output did not seem so good compared to the watts the motor was burning.
Anyways, it would be great if you can help out
Thanks for sharing your very well done video demo
Luc
Hi, and thank you I am a Machinist by trade so that helped in this build and have years of R and D work under the belt.
Sure anytime just send me an email at yardwarrior@hotmail.com Subject "Friction heater"
It sounds like from what you just told me he is looking at the thing all wrong. Have him look up K-Factor in water terms or some reading on Victor Schauberger.
Still feel free to hit me up I would be more then helpful in your build.
Quote from: norman6538 on October 31, 2012, 04:25:04 PM
Did you make this from scratch or did you have plans?
Norman
I made this from scratch with allot of reading.
Quote from: oilpiggy on October 31, 2012, 05:15:05 PM
Hi, and thank you I am a Machinist by trade so that helped in this build and have years of R and D work under the belt.
Sure anytime just send me an email at yardwarrior@hotmail.com Subject "Friction heater"
It sounds like from what you just told me he is looking at the thing all wrong. Have him look up K-Factor in water terms or some reading on Victor Schauberger.
Still feel free to hit me up I would be more then helpful in your build.
Thanks for the quick reply,
I've emailed Rick the link to this topic and your video demo. I'm sure he will be contacting you soon
Thanks for your offer to help.
Luc
Very well done and well explained. I would love to see the plans, if any, for what is inside your cylinder. That is so very compact and you are getting good heat with just convection. I hope that you sell these and make a lot of money. Great work.
Bill
Thank you Bill
This is heating on an Atomic level with no cavitation and no parts getting eaten away from the proses.
I am waiting for my patent to go through the I will be making the plans available for the people who would like to build them for there homes.
I should here from them soon. There will be 4 different styles to chose from depending on your needs.
Patent?
Prior art already exists on this and is in public domain.
Hi Oilpiggy,
what an appropriate nickname in view of your invention ;) .
I have seen all you youtube videos. There you have written that you have modified other friction heaters. I know the Frenette heater also. The only difference to you invention is that Frenette use a rotation cylinder inside of his heater. You use discs with different diameter. I am right? Are there other differences (in the principle).
Greetings :)
Patents can be design spicific he made enough improvements to get one through. Hopefully he didnt give up everything in his video or the chineese will have them already loaded on cargo containers ready to ship by now.
Last time I tried to make a friction heater it didnt put out as well as I wanted it to so I dropped it. If I ever go back to the drawing board it wont be based on liquid friction. Magnetic induction is a lot less messy.
It's a nice build you did a good job. I think you could market them easy enough if you scale them to fit an RV or a long hual semi tractor trailer since they are expanding the no idle laws every year. Commercial and recreational markets have a higher margin then residential markets. Good way to get your feet wet without drowning right out of the gate.
OP
I hope you didn't use the Atom word in your patent text?
They have a very big "Atom stick" at the Patent office . [never give a man a stick to beat you with].
I also noticed lately they scrutinize things a bit closer than in the past.Prior art Etc. Etc. {Rossi}
We don't really play "patent" here, which i suppose you already know [Forum Title}.
your willingness to share is wonderful !
Thx
Chet
Chet,
What happened to your friend's project that was a heater based on passing electrical current through water and using "resonance?" I am assuming that the film was never made and the whole thing withered on the vine. Am I correct?
In this case, why should an electrical motor turning some sort of friction device be any more efficient than an electric baseboard heater? Both devices in the final analysis produce heat power.
You have electrical power going into an electrical motor. The output from the motor is heat power and mechanical power. The mechanical power from the motor goes into a cylindrical device that converts the mechanical power into heat power. Do you see any place in this system for saving on your heating bill?
MileHigh
Hello everyone
Just need to say this, I did not start this build with the intent to try to make money off of it. My goal was to stop seeing people go with out a very necessary thing like heat.
With that being said I would not mind it someone in China picked this up and ran with it, all that would mean is they could build it cheaper then me and more people would have it. Who knows maybe then you could just go down to walmart and buy one :o Hell I would buy one. ;D
And no I did not use the word Atom but that is what is happening. the molecules of the oils are trying to stay in one spot and this is making them move around making heat.
This concept is not a new one its how it is done is what makes it. I don't think by any means is it "OU" but It is a very cheap way for me to make heat.
I am working on drafting off some of the heat to make power to supply some of the power to make it run even cheaper.
Quote from: ZathEros on November 02, 2012, 12:25:59 AM
Patent?
Prior art already exists on this and is in public domain.
Yes. You should check prior art thoroughly before spending anything on a patent.
Page 9:
http://www.free-energy-info.com/Chapter14.pdf
Quote from: Paul-R on November 02, 2012, 12:08:05 PM
Yes. You should check prior art thoroughly before spending anything on a patent.
Page 9:
http://www.free-energy-info.com/Chapter14.pdf
I have the hole book DL in my PC. I have seen it and it is not the same. I have built one like it and it did not work, not even a little.
Thank you for looking around keep it up more eyes and ears is what this needs.
Just a heads up m8 everything I am posting is now in public domain.
hi oilpiggy,
I know the document too: http://www.free-energy-info.com/Chapter14.pdf (http://www.free-energy-info.com/Chapter14.pdf)
But what makes your invention so unique?
Greetings.
Quote from: AlanA on November 02, 2012, 01:44:52 PM
hi oilpiggy,
I know the document too: http://www.free-energy-info.com/Chapter14.pdf (http://www.free-energy-info.com/Chapter14.pdf)
But what makes your invention so unique?
Greetings.
My design works.
@ oilpiggy
There must be a mistake. Who said that you invention does not work. I am not!
My question is: What makes you invention so unique?
My question: Paul-R gives a hint to a document. You said that you know the document and that the inventions there are different to yours. But what is the difference to other friction heaters? That was my only quetion. Not if it works or not!
Quote from: oilpiggy on November 05, 2012, 01:11:32 PM
My design works.
Will you give us the details of your device?
It seems quite simple to me.
He just multiplied the surface contact area by stacking stationary and rotating discs.
Here is a scematic representation of I think how to do it, See picture:
Green parts rotating
Red parts stationary
Blue are the spacers
The (red) stationary discs are resting on the (blue) spacers
In the space created by the (blue) spacers the rotating (green) discs are placed.
As the opening in the (red) discs are larger as the axle , they do not contact, so not rotate
The green discs are connect to the axle, and rotate.
Now you have made the effective friction area a lot larger.
Quote from: Cherryman on November 05, 2012, 04:49:37 PM
It seems quite simple to me.
He just multiplied the surface contact area by stacking stationary and rotating discs.
Here is a scematic representation of I think how to do it, See picture:
Green parts rotating
Red parts stationary
Blue are the spacers
The (red) stationary discs are resting on the (blue) spacers
In the space created by the (blue) spacers the rotating (green) discs are placed.
As the opening in the (red) discs are larger as the axle , they do not contact, so not rotate
The green discs are connect to the axle, and rotate.
Now you have made the effective friction area a lot larger.
well done .... looks like you have watch my videos. This my design to a T. Thank you for the auto cad .
Tnx!
I think you are on the right track, keep up the good work!
Edit: Yes, i did watch your vids with great interest.
Good work? This is good work? Sorry but it's crap. Any heating device based on electric resistance is much more effective than this. If you live in a relatively moderate climate a heat pump would be even better.
Kookala
Have you done caloric measurements?
I know that the Piggy says his does not work on this concept [below]
however
?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKPrGxB1Kzc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKPrGxB1Kzc)
Thx
Chet
.
Quote from: ramset on November 17, 2012, 11:12:39 AM
Kookala
Have you done caloric measurements?
I know that the Piggy says his does not work on this concept [below]
however
?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKPrGxB1Kzc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKPrGxB1Kzc)
Thx
Chet
We have so much to learn all over again. I like the way Victor Schauberger clearly shows how we need to learn from nature. The only "LAW" we should be obeying.
oilpiggy, could you share with us the number of spinning discs you are using in your heater in your home. i am trying to calculate the surface area you are working with, i would like a portable unit that would heat a fishing cabin or tent. i am thinking of making it lighter to carry.
so just guessing you mentioned using 14 discs in your bill. so is that 14 spinning discs or total counting the stationary platters? so could i cut back to 4 discs using a smaller electric motor?
i understand there is much more to this question, this is just in theory.
my guess is a 12 inch disc will produce more heat that 2 - 6 inch discs spinning at the same speed.
thanks
I wonder if Oilpiggy has checked his plates for signs of magnetic feilds. They could have become magnetic when they were made and may have a slight induction breaking effect aiding the thermal output. If I ever build another I will certainly employ the addvantage. If induction heating were aproached the way tank circuits are made to resonate I guess that might be an improvement. Turn the entire unit into a spinning capacitor in oil with a residual static field to boot.
ramset,
I believe that this kind of furnace is indeed running on these principles. So this is not
the pure friction causing the heating;
1 - is there a hydrogen bearing liquid in the unit - yes, motor oil is a hydrocarbon
2- is the bear metal exposed to this fluid - yes, I would assume so in the metal plates
3- is there a mechanical means of injecting "phonons" into the liquid - yes the AC electric motor
If one has a working unit the above suggests that there may be experimental variables
that one could easily try to confirm the presents of LENR occuring in this unit. For example
a sealing coating on the plates should defeat LENR from occurring there, so that
working unit suddenly "sealed" might suddenly stop cease producing excess energy.
The same with using a non hydrogen bearing working fluid liquid.
The key thing is that if this is LENR energy, then the "transfer function" of input to
output energy (or COP) will be relatively complicated. This complexity is what
defeats normal analysis of people who don't use the correct operational
model and what causes people who measure the output to often times
come out with wrong answers. For example using a variable viscosity
fluid should not be used - using as much as possible a fluid that has a constant
viscosity with temperature would be highly desirable.
Imagine the complexity if the viscosity of the working fluid *is* variable
with temperature. Actually LENR increases in output efficiency might occur
over only part of the working temperature range. Now you try to optimize
the efficiency by tuning the motor to an operating point with a mechanical
load that is fluctuating all over the place, one would probably not be very successful.
This is why it would be advisable to understand what the transfer function curve
actually is, and then both broaden the curve along with trying to find the maximum
operating point. Notice too this means pulling heat off the unit by a method
that is relatively constant and non-turbulent.
:S:MarkSCoffman
mscoffman
Possibilities?
Many things are in motion in this device,working with fluids and tension/pressure as well as what can manifest during a spin.
Gabriel is a wonderful person and true open source engineer.
I believe this is going to the next level [calorimetry].
Thx
Chet
PS
I see AP posted below
Sir this is... and will remain an open source project.[Gabriels choice] unlike the troubled business venture of Rossi.[I believe there are several threads for that already]
Quote from: oilpiggy on November 02, 2012, 12:06:47 PM
This concept is not a new one its how it is done is what makes it. I don't think by any means is it "OU" but It is a very cheap way for me to make heat.
I am working on drafting off some of the heat to make power to supply some of the power to make it run even cheaper.
I don't like the term "OU" either, because it implies (or connotes) a violation of the laws of physics, especially, the law of conservation of energy. "Free energy" also implies "something from nothing", which tends to invite ridicule.
But in one of your vids you said your heating bill went from about $200 / mo to $30/mo IIRC... This suggests something very interesting -- One might call it "Tapping a previously unused (perhaps unknown) source of energy" - tapping PUSE.
(I would recommend use of a term like PUSE "previously unused (perhaps unknown) source of energy" instead of "free energy" to clarify things.)
Your work reminds me of the Davey device that vibrates water and presumably produces xs heat (or rather, taps PUSE).
This device also comes to mind, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_-DUKQ4Uw&feature=related Hmmm... water has interesting properties along with some other liquids.
Thanks for sharing, oilpiggy and everyone!
Quote from: Doug1 on November 26, 2012, 11:28:28 AM
I wonder if Oilpiggy has checked his plates for signs of magnetic feilds. They could have become magnetic when they were made and may have a slight induction breaking effect aiding the thermal output. If I ever build another I will certainly employ the addvantage. If induction heating were aproached the way tank circuits are made to resonate I guess that might be an improvement. Turn the entire unit into a spinning capacitor in oil with a residual static field to boot.
Hello
Its not that they were magnetized during the machining, I magnetized them before installing the discs. Its nice that you picked up on that :D I am sure there is a resonance going on here. That has not been tested for but it will be.
Thank you
Gabriel
Quote from: oilpiggy on November 28, 2012, 09:15:39 PM
Hello
Its not that they were magnetized during the machining, I magnetized them before installing the discs. Its nice that you picked up on that :D I am sure there is a resonance going on here. That has not been tested for but it will be.
Thank you
Gabriel
Hi, Gabriel -- intriguing information: "I magnetized them before installing the discs. Its nice that you picked up on that"
So, how were they magnetized? North poles up (for example) on all disks, or what? Do these disks hold much magnetization I wonder?
Or could a guy put an EXTERNAL magnet on the outside of the casing?
PS -- I'm VERY impressed by the engineering and work that went into your design.
Thanks,
Steve
Quote from: JouleSeeker on November 30, 2012, 10:30:48 PM
Hi, Gabriel -- intriguing information: "I magnetized them before installing the discs. Its nice that you picked up on that"
So, how were they magnetized? North poles up (for example) on all disks, or what? Do these disks hold much magnetization I wonder?
Or could a guy put an EXTERNAL magnet on the outside of the casing?
PS -- I'm VERY impressed by the engineering and work that went into your design.
Thanks,
Steve
Hello Steve, and thank you.
The discs are north then south then north... Etc. etc. etc. This all helps with a few different aspects of the core itself.
Thank you
Gabriel
Oilpiggy
Ever give any thought to heating up a disk and brushing it with a brass or bronze wire brush so it coats the plate the way some people apply a coating to cast iron statues or ornamental work for the stationary disks?
Quote from: Doug1 on December 03, 2012, 03:17:49 PM
Oilpiggy
Ever give any thought to heating up a disk and brushing it with a brass or bronze wire brush so it coats the plate the way some people apply a coating to cast iron statues or ornamental work for the stationary disks?
Hello
Nope I have not done anything to coat the discs. With what you are proposing what do you think the out come would be?
Different materials may lend themselves to heating up better then others .they may also transfer heat to the liguid better then others. If your disks are performing some sort of induction heating effect from being magnatized and in motion against one another. You may want to investigate how you can or if you can include the effects of a homopolar dynomo motor gen arangment to. An oil filled cylinder would have the addvantage of using the oil as an insulator with motion giving capacitense to the alternate plates while they are turning.
There is plenty of prior data from various sources wich could give you months experimenting with your device. Altimately to get it to put out the most heat with the least amount of input from the drive motor. Then there is always the chance you could trip over some other effect along the way that you could use elswhere.
Here is a video for ya http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzmHGmAqMJc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzmHGmAqMJc) Im not sugjesting you go for this level of heat cause it would creap up to the motor and catch fire. I will see if I can locate the the dynomo study paper and pass that along to you once I find it. You can read Teslas notes on the unipolar dynomo yourself on the net. Phase shift tricks to lead in or recombine to increase work with out increasing input. Consumption becomes additive to input like recycling ,the shift in the phase of reinput seams to be that trick.
@oilpiggy,
*You* know whether your furnace device outputs extra heat energy or not because 1HP =~ 800Watts.
800Watts equals one half the heat output of one of those 1500Watt nichrome and plastic room heater/fans.
So 800Watts would not capable of heating a room much less a whole house. So you know whether this
device really works or not.
My Idea;
So let us assume oilpiggy's heater produces energy gain. I therefore propose this idea. It would be interesting
and neat to combine your furnace design with a ROV Rotoverter motor and generator overunity device like
depicted in the link;
http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Motor-Alternator_Self-Looped_System_by_Joe_Tomicki
The combined device should then be capable of outputing lots of heat while simultaneously recharging 1/2 its
battery bank so as to not require *any* utility connection.
Here are some benefits of this approach;
1) A single high efficiency (DC) motor is required for both processes.
2) The devices subsystem are sized as required for continuous operation.
3) No Utility Line Voltage is required since the energy loop is primarily distributed by mechanical shaft.
4) No Line Voltage inverter is required - no cost - no high voltages - unit will be extremely safe
5) A Large power off switch or Key switch would be required so the device doesn't accidently start up while in storage.
6) If... the deep cycle discharge batteries use room temperature heat to recharge - the furnace device's energy gain
produces the extra heat required.
7) A remote thermostatic device of some type would be required.
Here is how I would build such the heater;
6 deep cycle discharge (marine trolling) batteries 3 in series to the drive motor 3 in parallel to recharge via the alternator.
6 CMOS NE555 configured as a VFC voltage to frequency converters to monitor each battery voltage independently
without forming any DC groundloops.
1 custom constructed lucite plastic mercury tilt switches to reconfigure the batteries.
1 tilt switch is driven by small DC gearmotor. tilt left => battery bank 1 in parallel battery bank 2 in series
tilt right => battery bank 2 in parallel battery bank 1 in series.
1 microcontroller processor - control for above.
Neat, Aye?
:S:MarkSCoffman
Quote from: mscoffman on December 06, 2012, 03:20:48 PM
@oilpiggy,
*You* know whether your furnace device outputs extra heat energy or not because 1HP =~ 800Watts.
800Watts equals one half the heat output of one of those 1500Watt nichrome and plastic room heater/fans.
So 800Watts would not capable of heating a room much less a whole house. So you know whether this
device really works or not.
My Idea;
So let us assume oilpiggy's heater produces energy gain. I therefore propose this idea. It would be interesting
and neat to combine your furnace design with a ROV Rotoverter motor and generator overunity device like
depicted in the link;
http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Motor-Alternator_Self-Looped_System_by_Joe_Tomicki
The combined device should then be capable of outputing lots of heat while simultaneously recharging 1/2 its
battery bank so as to not require *any* utility connection.
Here are some benefits of this approach;
1) A single high efficiency (DC) motor is required for both processes.
2) The devices subsystem are sized as required for continuous operation.
3) No Utility Line Voltage is required since the energy loop is primarily distributed by mechanical shaft.
4) No Line Voltage inverter is required - no cost - no high voltages - unit will be extremely safe
5) A Large power off switch or Key switch would be required so the device doesn't accidently start up while in storage.
6) If... the deep cycle discharge batteries use room temperature heat to recharge - the furnace device's energy gain
produces the extra heat required.
7) A remote thermostatic device of some type would be required.
Here is how I would build such the heater;
6 deep cycle discharge (marine trolling) batteries 3 in series to the drive motor 3 in parallel to recharge via the alternator.
6 CMOS NE555 configured as a VFC voltage to frequency converters to monitor each battery voltage independently
without forming any DC groundloops.
1 custom constructed lucite plastic mercury tilt switches to reconfigure the batteries.
1 tilt switch is driven by small DC gearmotor. tilt left => battery bank 1 in parallel battery bank 2 in series
tilt right => battery bank 2 in parallel battery bank 1 in series.
1 microcontroller processor - control for above.
Neat, Aye?
:S:MarkSCoffman
Hello Mark,
Well it looks like your going to have fun playing around with this.
The wattage that is being used to heat my house.... I guess I am not going to beat the dead horse but, It is heating my house for the amount of power I am stated. There is not much more to say about this.
I have posted my findings and now it is up to people to do it them self's I guess.
I do like your plans, Why don't you just run a DC motor like the UFO motor? Seems a lot less complicated.
Anyways at the end of the day my heating bill is still a hell of a lot cheaper then it was and that is all that matters to me.
Best wishes
Thank you
Gabriel
Quote from: Doug1 on December 06, 2012, 07:46:25 AM
Different materials may lend themselves to heating up better then others .they may also transfer heat to the liguid better then others. If your disks are performing some sort of induction heating effect from being magnatized and in motion against one another. You may want to investigate how you can or if you can include the effects of a homopolar dynomo motor gen arangment to. An oil filled cylinder would have the addvantage of using the oil as an insulator with motion giving capacitense to the alternate plates while they are turning.
There is plenty of prior data from various sources wich could give you months experimenting with your device. Altimately to get it to put out the most heat with the least amount of input from the drive motor. Then there is always the chance you could trip over some other effect along the way that you could use elswhere.
Here is a video for ya http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzmHGmAqMJc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzmHGmAqMJc) Im not sugjesting you go for this level of heat cause it would creap up to the motor and catch fire. I will see if I can locate the the dynomo study paper and pass that along to you once I find it. You can read Teslas notes on the unipolar dynomo yourself on the net. Phase shift tricks to lead in or recombine to increase work with out increasing input. Consumption becomes additive to input like recycling ,the shift in the phase of reinput seams to be that trick.
Thank you Doug1
It is worth looking into ;)
*You* know whether your furnace device outputs extra heat energy or not because 1HP =~ 800Watts.
800Watts equals one half the heat output of one of those 1500Watt nichrome and plastic room heater/fans.
So 800Watts would not capable of heating a room much less a whole house. So you know whether this
device really works or not.*
When did HP become equal to BTU's? Even in terms of a compressor system the quality of the compressor should be accounted for against its power consumption. If I apply 800 watts to a ceramic heater and 800 watts to a motor to make it turn when did the turning motor become a heat source? At the friction device I do believe. So how do you measure the effective results of the heater off the motor input or output when the motor is not the heat source?
I guess heat recovery systems are not note worthy iether since the heat source was a 100% loss even if you manage to recover 60% of the heat that would be expelled into the atmosphere. Same math.
I decided to look it up and sure enough 1 hp is equal to 2544.43 btu's How many btu's do you get from a nicrome heater in btu's?
Anyone in contact with Luc ?
I'm getting no replies on email or YT messages :(
Thanks,
DC.
Forgot to say, oilpiggy, very impressive. Fantastic reduction in heating costs, you're a top man :)
All the best,
DC.
Quote from: DeepCut on December 08, 2012, 12:59:37 PM
Forgot to say, oilpiggy, very impressive. Fantastic reduction in heating costs, you're a top man :)
All the best,
DC.
Thank you DC
Please hurry, make a http://www.kickstarter.com/ with this invention, a small run first, with the actual design. Next design will be for another run, dont try to make perfect at once, bring what you have.
the people need it, also will make jobs in your area and money for the patent and for your ideas.
Thanks.
Oilpiggy:
It would appear that all you have is anecdotal information that it is costing you less to heat your house with your friction heater. At the same time physics states that it doesn't matter if you use an electrical heating element or a motor outputting mechanical power that is used to make heat from friction, they will both output the same amount of heat if the input electrical power is the same.
So, unless you can devise an experiment and generate some real data that backs up your claim, and then have your experiment replicated by at least two other parties that get similar results, right now there is no substantive data to make a claim.
There is simply no rational reason to assume that a friction heater will outperform an electric heating element, notwithstanding your anecdotal claims.
If you want to be taken seriously, you have to take it to the next level.
MileHigh
@MileHigh
The next step is already being taken. (the testing model is in construction ) This step will take time for proper study. With that being said, would you like to build one? I have published everything about this heater so just about anyone could build it and have oferd up my help in doing so.
Their are a lot of people taking this very seriously, including myself. My claim of my heating bill reduction is factual. :DI know my wife has not complained about the new bill. :D
Testing does take time and money, and will be done after the holidays are over. In the meen time I will be spending the rest of this month with my wife and kids. I did not build my Friction Heater to re wright the text books or prove one "LAW" to another. This was to heat my house for a cheaper rate then kerosene or electric wall heaters.... Mission accomplished on my part 8)
Thank you
Gabriel
:)Happy Holidays to everyone :)
Oilpiggy:
I will pass on building a heater, I have no need for one. Since you mentioned it, can I ask you what your test setup will consist of and how you will make your measurements? I have no idea how much thought that you have put into this but sharing your thoughts might help. I know from experience that there are many pitfalls that experimenters can fall into when it comes to making serious electrical and thermal measurements. It's not necessarily easy at all, and sometimes people mistakenly believe ahead of time that it will be easy. So sharing your test apparatus and test and measurement strategy could really help you and make for a good discussion at the same time.
MileHigh
Hello Oilpiggy,
A very clever invention. And I really like your attitude about what you have come up with.
Now if I may, let me take a stab in the dark at what makes your invention tick, if I may. You mentioned Victor Schauberger. One of the many things that he dealt with was water flow, vortex. Now, you have created, using magnetic fields and your core, a vortex also. Your plates spinning or core produce edddy currents that in turn produce the heat. I guess my question is, these same eddy currents should also be acting as a brake on the rotation creating drag on the motor? But you are able to produce more heat then the eddy currents produce braking. Is this because of the way that you have the magnetic plates stacked? So, perhaps the eddy currents produced, depending on the magnetic poles, some act to hinder or brake, opposing the direction of rotation, while others assist the direction of rotation? Your thoughts?
Thank you for sharing!
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: MileHigh on December 10, 2012, 08:20:31 PM
Oilpiggy:
It would appear that all you have is anecdotal information that it is costing you less to heat your house with your friction heater. At the same time physics states that it doesn't matter if you use an electrical heating element or a motor outputting mechanical power that is used to make heat from friction, they will both output the same amount of heat if the input electrical power is the same.
So, unless you can devise an experiment and generate some real data that backs up your claim, and then have your experiment replicated by at least two other parties that get similar results, right now there is no substantive data to make a claim.
There is simply no rational reason to assume that a friction heater will outperform an electric heating element, notwithstanding your anecdotal claims.
If you want to be taken seriously, you have to take it to the next level.
MileHigh
Milhigh i think the fact that he is as warm in his house as he always is, but is paying $170 dollares LESS per month on heating says something.
Why do you assume everyone who does these things wants to be "taken seriously" (whatever that means, in your head).
You're such a cheeky sod "anecdotal claims". The guy built it, it's working for him, he's saving money and he's not charging anyone for plans or advice.
I really think you're a dick, and i regret defending you're right to be unbanned on OUR.
Sincerely,
DC.
DeepCut:
I think that you are the dick for objecting to me asking about making real measurements and generating some scientific data. I stand behind everything I stated and if you want to go off and sulk in a corner whenever someone requests a proper analysis then you are in the wrong place.
MileHigh
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on December 11, 2012, 03:35:45 AM
Hello Oilpiggy,
A very clever invention. And I really like your attitude about what you have come up with.
Now if I may, let me take a stab in the dark at what makes your invention tick, if I may. You mentioned Victor Schauberger. One of the many things that he dealt with was water flow, vortex. Now, you have created, using magnetic fields and your core, a vortex also. Your plates spinning or core produce edddy currents that in turn produce the heat. I guess my question is, these same eddy currents should also be acting as a brake on the rotation creating drag on the motor? But you are able to produce more heat then the eddy currents produce braking. Is this because of the way that you have the magnetic plates stacked? So, perhaps the eddy currents produced, depending on the magnetic poles, some act to hinder or brake, opposing the direction of rotation, while others assist the direction of rotation? Your thoughts?
Thank you for sharing!
Cheers,
Bruce
Bump...
Hi Oilpiggy,
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the above?!
Many thanks!
Bruce
Quote from: MileHigh on December 11, 2012, 10:36:13 AM
DeepCut:
I think that you are the dick for objecting to me asking about making real measurements and generating some scientific data. I stand behind everything I stated and if you want to go off and sulk in a corner whenever someone requests a proper analysis then you are in the wrong place.
MileHigh
Sometimes you are actually funny, sulk in a corner, lol !
I haven't done that for many years, MH.
DC.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on December 12, 2012, 09:23:22 AM
Bump...
Hi Oilpiggy,
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the above?!
Many thanks!
Bruce
Hello Bruce,
I tried north all up and north all down, the best out come was with them north south north south ect, ect.
Thank you
Gabriel
Hello everyone,
I have a test model in construction for testing at Brigham Young University. Looks like the test model will be done around mid to late January.
P.S. Still heating my house for pennies a day.
Thank you
Gabriel
Nice one OP, can't wait to see results :)
All the best,
DC.
Oilpiggy:
I would still like to know what your proposed test setup and test strategy is for your device.
You plan for data gathering for your house where you compare December and January results is still not scientific. You are not accounting for the wind factor and it's not even practical or feasible to do that. So those results would be anecdotal.
MileHigh
*Deleted*
Nope, changed my mind. He simply built a drum oil friction heater. I will try my own ideas out and see what I see, for snickers and giggles.
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2878-my-replication-fuelless-oil-heater-3.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2878-my-replication-fuelless-oil-heater-3.html)
Cheers,
Bruce
And, check this out:
http://www.rexresearch.com/frenette/frenette.htm (http://www.rexresearch.com/frenette/frenette.htm)
I think if one were to design a friction heater, at peak efficiency, perhaps a ARCHIMEDES SCREW could be used, to create greater movement and friction of the oil. I will have to play with this idea. The screw would lift the oil up, have it run down the outside of the innercylinder, and back to its starting point. Perhaps even have the oil run through perforations on it's return trip, via negative pressure as a result of the up pumping action of the screw? ::)
Fun thoughts.
Cheers,
Bruce
Bruce:
You should read your own link:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..
Infinite Energy 23: 23 (1999) December 1998 Kinetic Furnace Test: Previously Reported Results Retracted
By Jed Rothwell & Ed Wall
We first reported on the Kinetic Furnace, invented by Eugene Perkins and Ralph Pope, in Issue # 19. The device had, at that time, been tested by several independent engineering laboratories and services. The Kinetic Furnace is, as the name implies, a device for heating and forcing airflow. Heat is generated by means of a rotor that flings water from the hub to the rim of its chamber, through some precisely dimensioned nozzles. This "stirring" action is driven by a 6 HP electric motor. The heated water is driven out of the rotor chamber into a radiator and out an output duct.
In April 1998, Eugene Mallove and Jed Rothwell assessed the furnace for themselves at the inventors' facility in Cumming GA, where they observed the apparent production of excess heat.
Furhter testing was carried out by Mallove and Ed Wall, June through September of 1998, in Bow NH at NERL (New Energy Research Laboratory), but no significant excess heat was observed during that period. Another machine was shipped from Georgia, but it too showed no excess. Finally, Pope loaded a third unit into a van and drove it to New Hampshire himself. He helped install and test it, but this third test also failed. Different sources of water were tested, the operating temperature and the rotation speed of the motor were varied slightly, but no significant excess energy was observed. In IE #22 we reported on this briefly, expressing continued hope that the machine would produce excess heat. We reported a COP (Coefficient of Performance) of 115% (155% excess heat) This level of excess heat is difficult to establish with certainty using airflow calorimetry. A 200 or 300% excess could be detected with confidence, but 15 to 20% could be the result of subtle errors.
Pope returned to Georgia, discouraged. It was clear that we had hit a dead end, and that if the machine does work, there must be something different about the way it was being operated or the water or some other material in Georgia. We decided that the only way we would ever get to the bottom of this mystery would be to conduct extensive tests on site in Georgia, using our instruments and Pope's in parallel. The machine is large enough to allow several temperature probes and ammeters to be attached simultaneously, unlike the small hand-held cold fusion cells, which often only have room for one set of instruments.
In November 198, Pope reported that he was now achieving a COP as high as 180% with the machine he had brought to Bow, which had been reconditioned and reassembled with a new rotor and pipes. Rothwell conducted a half-day of testing of this machine in the Cummings GA machine shop location, using the same instruments and techniques Rothwell and Mallove used in April. Most of this 180% turned out to be an artifact of Pope's anemometer, which suffered from a power supply probem caused by worn out rechargeable batteries. The measured air speed was too low. The high excess heat results reported by Pope in previous issues of this magazine were also probably caused by this error. Ralph Pope does not agree with this assessment and believes that the air speed was measured correctly. The blower power did not change and so it is highly unlikely that the airspeed fell. While the large excess was clearly wrong, apparent 46% excess heat was seen, which was in line with what we observed in April. We were encouraged by this preliminary result, yet puzzled and wary by our inability to replicate it in New Hampshire. We decided to press ahead with full-scale tests in Georgia. Ed Wall went to Georgia bringing several tools and precision instruments, listed on page 27.
In the series of tests from December 4-9, 1998, Wall, Rothwell, and Pope tested the Kinetic Furnace extensively, using higher quality instruments and more sophisticated techniques than Pope had ever used. Unfortunately, no significant excess heat was observed. Based on the December results, we believe our initial assessment in April was incorrect, and there was never any significant excess heat in the tests we performed in Georgia or New Hampshire. We believe we have discovered the source of the error which caused the artificial heat in Georgia. The error was in technique rather than instruments or formula. In the December tests we used an improved technique, a computer, an HP 34970A Data Acquisition System, and an array of 11 K-Type, 20 gauge wire thermocouples (four on the inlet and seven on the outlet side). The thermocouples were calibrated carefully through the temperature range of interest and compared to NIST traceable mercury thermometers. By performing this calibration, we learned that the thermocouples read about 0.5° F less than the calibration thermometer over the temperature range of interest. At the same time we used the computerized instruments, we repeated the tests using the same relatively crude, hand-held instruments --- ammeters and thermometers employed in November. In this second test with hand-held electronic, alcohol and mercury thermometers, we measured no excess heat, thus confirming the computer thermocouple readings.
Yep, I think I would also add some nanoparticles (nickel? cheap) to the oil to increase the skin friction an make the heating process also more efficient.
@ Oilpiggy,
You also may want to place some grooves, that are counter of the spin of your discs, into your discs, as this too should increase friction, thus increasing heat. More heat at less RPM would equal greater power efficiency.
Cheers,
Bruce
Hi Bruce,
One idea that I haven't tried but always wanted to.
Take a large ring magnet, secure a metal bolt through the center. Seal the top and bottom half with silicone but leave an exposed ring along the edge of the magnet(bloch wall). Place a larger aluminum ring washer so that it covers the edge of the magnet but touches the exposed part. Place two more aluminum washers one on top and bottom so they contact the center ring and bolt through middle.
Congratulations you've just built a shorted out homopolar generator. :) Now the question is will it heat up when spun at high speed in water? The one problem is heating the magnet if it works.
Edit: Oops, Actually this would require a fixed outer bearing in the center to act as brush but same principle.
Bruce:
Let's discuss the concept of efficiency here.
If you increase the friction, what happens? There is more of a mechanical load on the motor, therefore it draws more power from the mains. So you are not increasing the efficiency, all that you are doing is increasing the power consumption from the mains and also generating correspondingly more heat through friction.
In a setup with an electrical motor driving some sort of a friction device you have two sources of heat. The electrical motor produces heat and the friction device produces heat.
A very good motor will be very efficient and produce very little heat. But in the end it doesn't matter, the input electrical power will be turned into heat by the motor and by the friction device. Therefore by definition any combination of motor and friction device will be 100% efficient. No matter what you do the system will be 100% efficient in producing heat. In that sense using the term "efficient" does not really apply for this type of setup since it is always 100% efficient.
MileHigh
MileHigh
from a purely scientific numerical stand point I dont pay anything for my electric heat. I keep it turned off and use fire wood heater. I get the wood for free and use discarded left over news papers from a local store to start the fire and sometimes I even burn up paper trash to reduce my volume of trash going to the dump then use the ash around the yard for the soil. my wood heater is far too big for the space it heats so I filled half the burn chamber with fire brick which was originally just to reduce the size of the fire chamber. In the end it actually helped to serve as a heat resivour which continues to provide heat for 4 to 5 hours after the fire has died out. If your looking for the most extream of cheapness there ya go.
I cant really provide a cost sheet since there isnt a financial cost with the wood heat. The electric used to add 200 to 300 a month depending what temp the electric heat was set to. It never felt very warm anyway. Now I like to keep it around 75 sometimes it goes higher if Im not mindfull of the damper setting. I also cut down on some use of the electric stove because the wood heater keeps my coffee pot hot and sometimes I warm up left overs to have for lunch but that would be very hard to calculate. The abillity to come inside on a cold damp or wet rainy day and plant my ass against a hot wood stove, well thats just priceless.
There is a point in the exceleration of a disk dynomo where the polarity reverses direction if the a certain speed is exceeded. There would aslo then be a speed at which it is niether forward or reverse polarity while rotating which may be helpful to know. Speed can be used to regulate the heat caused by the breaking action. Teslas improvements state a method on the unipolar whereby he uses a thrid brush to accumulate in a additive sense a higher output or greater efiecincy. Found in his unipolar notes. There are loads of additional possibilities which could improve the function of friction heat. Cavitation, increasing surface area by texture, magnetic breaking, material combinations to produce curent by the peltire effect. Consider how many failed lightbulbs or bulbs that were not up to expectation to be commercially viable it toke to make the final product. Only to have commerce come in and later retard the efforts so more money could be had on shorter life bulbs. Give the poor heater a chance,there will be plenty of time to screw it up later after it reaches a point of working.
Quote from: MileHigh on December 10, 2012, 08:20:31 PM
There is simply no rational reason to assume that a friction heater will outperform
an electric heating element, notwithstanding your anecdotal claims.
It is a source of wonder and amazement, MileHigh, that you can spend so much
time in the presence of exotic and profound thinkers, and yet pick up nothing.
Doug1:
More power to you that you burn wood, but what does that have to do with this thread? I have no clue what you mean by "dynamo polarity."
Paul-R:
"The Square Peg Society." lol
I also find Gabriel's work to be very impressive, and encouraging!
His device is amenable to careful scientific testing.
1. First I would start with running the hot-cylinder alone in a water calorimeter, which I have built and calibrated in my home laboratory. I have used this calorimeter (and variations of it) in energy studies many times (see, for example, http://pesn.com/2012/11/19/9602225_Steven_Jones_replica--Pons_and_Fleischmann_XS_Heat_not_from_fusion/ (http://pesn.com/2012/11/19/9602225_Steven_Jones_replica--Pons_and_Fleischmann_XS_Heat_not_from_fusion/) )
2. Careful measurements of the input power (I have several types of meters for measuring input power if AC, and others for measuring input power for DC) and the output power (heating of a known quantity of water). Among other power meters, I have a standard electric-power meter as used for homes on the grid.
3. It would be very important to run CONTROLS, such as immersion heaters in water, to compare with the heat-output of Gabriel's device.
4. For instance, one could use 500 watt-hours put into a simple immersion heater and measure the temperature-rise, and make sure the calorimeter is properly functioning and calibrated. Then the SAME amount (e.g. 500 watter-hours) would be fed to the motor on your device and the temperature-rise in the calorimeter from the hot-cylinder measured. From this one can calculate the efficiency of the immersion heater = control (which should be close to 100%) and the efficiency of your device (presumably over 100% compared with input electrical energy; like a "heat pump" perhaps). In "cold fusion" circles, this is simply called "anomalous excess heat" -- since the origin of the anomalous heat is currently unknown.
The measurement is conservative in that the heat in the motor is not measured for this straightforward first testing (heat from the motor could be measured later).
5. Several tests would be done, varying the amount of water bath in the calorimeter, temperature probes used, etc.
6. Later, if Gabriel agrees, I could arrange for use of a more sophisticated calorimeter. But - I would not do this at first. The above calorimetric tests can be done quickly and in a definitive way in my laboratory, as long as the anomalous xs heat is more than about 20% of the input electrical power. I have already built and tested the needed equipment.
7. AFTER these initial "anomalous heat" tests, I propose to test the device for safety by looking for any potentially dangerous emissions coming from the device -- looking for X-rays, gammas, betas, alphas, neutrons and RF radiation. The device can be shielded to prevent harm, but it is crucial IMO to make sure that the device is safe, for example for home use. It is conceivable, although not likely IMO, that the anomalous heat is nuclear in origin (LENR), and if so the device may need to be shielded.
As an emeritus Professor of Physics, I also have contacts in the scientific community that would allow Gabriel (and others) to present findings from careful testing including controls (see above) at:
1. Scientific conferences
and
2. In scientific journals.
A peer-reviewed paper would add to the credibility and public acceptance and use of the device -- it could go viral. I'm well acquainted with the process, having over fifty peer-reviewed papers (my web-site page: http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/ (http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/) )
Paul
The guy reduced his heating bill by using a friction heater he made himself. He only wanted to share his experience. He's not looking for money or fame. For his good deed he gets jumped on because he only has info that is derived from his heating bill which is all he wanted to reduce. He fullfilled his need. Just like my wood heater filled mine and I dont really care about data outside of my heating bill and the comfort is just icing on the cake.
The reality of "his" lower bills most likely is due to a problem with his heating system not working properly. Like a leaking vent pumping his heat into the walls or attic making his system run harder and longer then it should. Or people going in and out too much letting his heat roll right out the door. Too many windows for the size house and or lower quality windows. There are a lot of reasons his friction heater could reduce his bills since it is a point of use heater not subject to poor construction or misshap all the heat is supplied directly to the space they live in. Same princible works for cooking stoves and comparing induction cooking to heated coils or narural gas. It's conservation and use of the resource. Have you ever investigated heat recycling sanitation drains? They work well also in reducing the energy used to heat domestic water by warming up the incomming water the heater using the heated water going down the drain. Not everyone can make use of every notion ever though up. It depends on a number of conditions.
The friction heater is still a unique design with lot of room to get more out of it.
Im still looking for the paper on the Disk dynomo.I spent an hour already trying to find it. I will have to continue looking for it later tonight. It's not mine it was done by a lab if I remember right. Just another device no one has done much with inspite of how strange it is.
Last thought: most pegs start out square because that is the prctical way to cut the material then it gets placed on a lathe and large portion of the peg is removed so it will conform to the smaller round hole. The peg works round or square in the correct shape hole. I do not subscribe to the extra work or wasted material to make a round peg without there being a good enough reason such as an improvement in performance equal the expense of the extra work or better. I leave such folly to the fasion police and those folks who like to change stuff up for sake of commerce.
Quote from: Doug1 on December 20, 2012, 09:38:19 AM
Paul
The guy reduced his heating bill by using a friction heater he made himself. He only wanted to share his experience. He's not looking for money or fame. For his good deed he gets jumped on because he only has...
I agree. His work is interesting,. especially the magnetic discs, a departure from Frenette
and possibly bringing in Schauberger, vortices and Lords Knows What.
Doug1:
Gabriel is not being 'jumped' on. He posted some video clips and made some claims. Some people clearly believe that there may be some free energy magic going on as evidenced by their postings. Some discussion points have been raised which is normal around here. There is no need to play the bad censor cop, it's simply stifling discussion. This is a place where discussion is supposed to be encouraged.
Still no word from Gabriel about any proposed test setup or test plans which he said he was undertaking. Unfortunately that's not very encouraging.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on December 17, 2012, 10:56:57 PM
Bruce:
Let's discuss the concept of efficiency here.
If you increase the friction, what happens? There is more of a mechanical load on the motor, therefore it draws more power from the mains. So you are not increasing the efficiency, all that you are doing is increasing the power consumption from the mains and also generating correspondingly more heat through friction.
In a setup with an electrical motor driving some sort of a friction device you have two sources of heat. The electrical motor produces heat and the friction device produces heat.
A very good motor will be very efficient and produce very little heat. But in the end it doesn't matter, the input electrical power will be turned into heat by the motor and by the friction device. Therefore by definition any combination of motor and friction device will be 100% efficient. No matter what you do the system will be 100% efficient in producing heat. In that sense using the term "efficient" does not really apply for this type of setup since it is always 100% efficient.
MileHigh
I understand your logic here, and obviously I too have thought about it. But, and here is where the question mark comes into play for me. Once the motor has worked using X amount of watts, to heat the oil, via friction, etc., it would then become MUCH more efficient to maintain that temperature (of course this too depends on the efficiency of the air exchange in the home). Like a vehicle using more gasoline to get up to speed, but then using less, to "maintain" speed.
Now, can efficiency ever increase over 100%? You and others will always argue impossible. Myself and others will always look for that one impossible situation.
BUT, I will say this... Oilpiggy does indeed have a dog in the hunt, for he is selling the plans to his heater for 50 dollars each. And, I would like to see some photographs of said reduced electric bills. Friction heaters have been around in the FE community for about 40 years, with great claims. To date, as usual, none proven.
I think combining the hot water heater drill guy, the metal with all of the holes in it, that caused friction, with the oil friction heater concept might be a winner. I posted a lot of info above for others wanting to research.
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: DreamThinkBuild on December 17, 2012, 10:53:18 PM
Hi Bruce,
One idea that I haven't tried but always wanted to.
Take a large ring magnet, secure a metal bolt through the center. Seal the top and bottom half with silicone but leave an exposed ring along the edge of the magnet(bloch wall). Place a larger aluminum ring washer so that it covers the edge of the magnet but touches the exposed part. Place two more aluminum washers one on top and bottom so they contact the center ring and bolt through middle.
Congratulations you've just built a shorted out homopolar generator. :) Now the question is will it heat up when spun at high speed in water? The one problem is heating the magnet if it works.
Edit: Oops, Actually this would require a fixed outer bearing in the center to act as brush but same principle.
Hi Dreamthinkbuild,
I like your way of thinking, like what I mentioned before about eddy currents. The problem I foresee, is the usual, lenz law. We are creating the heat on the aluminum, but acting as a brake on the motor to do so, which in turn causes the motor to work harder, thus nullifying any gain from said heat.
The reason that I like the friction heater, is there would appear to be many ways to increase efficiency without further straining the motor (using more wattage). Would this be super efficient? The text books would argue impossible, but I would say, perhaps, with the right set of parameters. I have come across some very good videos towards this end, some several years ago.
Cheers,
Bruce
MH reply #74 Quote
Doug1:
Gabriel is not being 'jumped' on. He posted some video clips and made some claims. Some people clearly believe that there may be some free energy magic going on as evidenced by their postings. Some discussion points have been raised which is normal around here. There is no need to play the bad censor cop, it's simply stifling discussion. This is a place where discussion is supposed to be encouraged.
Still no word from Gabriel about any proposed test setup or test plans which he said he was undertaking. Unfortunately that's not very encouraging.
MileHigh
MH
Post #57 and Post #71 = answers both your questions the set up and the "plans"
Some of us play together very well.........
Bruce:
If you saw my posting #63 a friction heater that people originally thought was doing something special ended up not being the case after more precise measurements were done. So I agree with you that in a best case scenario more data should be forthcoming from Gabriel about this system. The wind load on a house and its construction determine how much cold air will seep into the house. I don't think that Gabriel can account for that factor so serious scientific test data would be a good thing to have.
Chet:
No, I asked Gabriel and so far there is no response from him. Don't be afraid to ask questions and hope for real answers. You know that that problem causes the downfall of so many propositions. The longer that pattern goes on the more investigative energy and discussion ends up becoming wasted human thought and work. Take Mylow as an example. Or look at the main UFO thread. Many months have passed with lots of enthusiasm and PW read the entire thread. He reported that no one has actually done any serious testing on a modified motor. Therefore there isn't a stitch of evidence that UFO's claims have been verified by a third-party experimenter. Please don't try to play me like that.
MileHigh
MH
You asked Gabriel a question he and Steve already answered [post 57 ,71] Your comment above is a negative comment intimating some sort of failure to follow thru?[posts 57, 71 are evidence to the contrary]
No playing here MH..........
Thx
Chet
Quote from: JouleSeeker on December 19, 2012, 09:30:20 AM
I also find Gabriel's work to be very impressive, and encouraging!
His device is amenable to careful scientific testing.
1. First I would start with running the hot-cylinder alone in a water calorimeter, which I have built and calibrated in my home laboratory. I have used this calorimeter (and variations of it) in energy studies many times (see, for example, http://pesn.com/2012/11/19/9602225_Steven_Jones_replica--Pons_and_Fleischmann_XS_Heat_not_from_fusion/ (http://pesn.com/2012/11/19/9602225_Steven_Jones_replica--Pons_and_Fleischmann_XS_Heat_not_from_fusion/) )
2. Careful measurements of the input power (I have several types of meters for measuring input power if AC, and others for measuring input power for DC) and the output power (heating of a known quantity of water). Among other power meters, I have a standard electric-power meter as used for homes on the grid.
3. It would be very important to run CONTROLS, such as immersion heaters in water, to compare with the heat-output of Gabriel's device.
4. For instance, one could use 500 watt-hours put into a simple immersion heater and measure the temperature-rise, and make sure the calorimeter is properly functioning and calibrated. Then the SAME amount (e.g. 500 watter-hours) would be fed to the motor on your device and the temperature-rise in the calorimeter from the hot-cylinder measured. From this one can calculate the efficiency of the immersion heater = control (which should be close to 100%) and the efficiency of your device (presumably over 100% compared with input electrical energy; like a "heat pump" perhaps). In "cold fusion" circles, this is simply called "anomalous excess heat" -- since the origin of the anomalous heat is currently unknown.
The measurement is conservative in that the heat in the motor is not measured for this straightforward first testing (heat from the motor could be measured later).
5. Several tests would be done, varying the amount of water bath in the calorimeter, temperature probes used, etc.
6. Later, if Gabriel agrees, I could arrange for use of a more sophisticated calorimeter. But - I would not do this at first. The above calorimetric tests can be done quickly and in a definitive way in my laboratory, as long as the anomalous xs heat is more than about 20% of the input electrical power. I have already built and tested the needed equipment.
7. AFTER these initial "anomalous heat" tests, I propose to test the device for safety by looking for any potentially dangerous emissions coming from the device -- looking for X-rays, gammas, betas, alphas, neutrons and RF radiation. The device can be shielded to prevent harm, but it is crucial IMO to make sure that the device is safe, for example for home use. It is conceivable, although not likely IMO, that the anomalous heat is nuclear in origin (LENR), and if so the device may need to be shielded.
...(my web-site page: http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/ (http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/) )
Thanks Chet, and note @all that I had a communication from Gabriel that he accepts the above testing (there may be few variations). I find so far that Gabriel is honest and willing to have his device tested rigorously. The testing will likely take some time due to holiday travel and the time required for careful testing and evaluations. Good science takes time.
Bruce
"There is no need to play the bad censor cop, it's simply stifling discussion."
To all :Not my intent to play cop of any sort. I thought I raised enough questions regarding the home's construction and more.
If I wanted to play cop I would have asked for proof of the savings on his electric bill first .Two to three yr history of uttilty bills durring the winter.
Regardless of any results from anyone unless they can prove they have tried everything possible then it is still in the "maybe" column.
I would also like to know what viscosity oil he used maybe even the type of oil. The friction will change with temperature of the oil ,dropping the load on the motor as the oil heats up. An oil that starts out too thin will take longer to warm up from friction.
Quote from: Doug1 on December 22, 2012, 11:23:51 PM
Bruce
"There is no need to play the bad censor cop, it's simply stifling discussion."
To all :Not my intent to play cop of any sort. I thought I raised enough questions regarding the home's construction and more.
If I wanted to play cop I would have asked for proof of the savings on his electric bill first .Two to three yr history of uttilty bills durring the winter.
Regardless of any results from anyone unless they can prove they have tried everything possible then it is still in the "maybe" column.
I would also like to know what viscosity oil he used maybe even the type of oil. The friction will change with temperature of the oil ,dropping the load on the motor as the oil heats up. An oil that starts out too thin will take longer to warm up from friction.
Huh?? Not "playing" any sort of "cop". Simply answering MH post to me earlier.
I have already said that I find this heater "interesting", and actually took some time to research it, the history of friction heaters in the FE community, and spoke with Gabriel via email. It is a detailed build with precise measurments. I also found the idea of combining several ideas within the friction heater, "intriguing". I actually like to build things, not just talk about them. So my own version of a friction heater might make for a fun project. ;) :)
Using the following idea, combined with nanoparticles mixed with the oil, to heat the oil and use as a heater (not as a water heater). Same idea of friction heating the water. This seems a bit more efficient at first glance to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_-DUKQ4Uw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_-DUKQ4Uw)
Cheers,
Bruce
hello everyone,
I don't have much to say after reading the posts from MH.
I feel that I have been forthcoming with all my plans of this build. I some can not replicatethis build after everything I have posted,... I am at a loss... Look I have clearly stated that I am on the cost with my family and will not be spending any of my time with this heater or this forum untill I get back home.
As far as the 50$ for a cad drawing of this heater, I THINK that is a fair price.
I will not spoon feed people like you MH or entertain you by answer question that have already been answered.
Thank you everyone who is supporting this build. Together we can make a difference.
Back to my vacation and my wife and kids.
Thank you
Gabriel
Hope you have a wonderful vacation, Gabriel, and merry Christmas everyone!
I wouldn't worry too much about MH or those who mock. Agapae love, said Paul, "vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up". 1 Corinthians 13
And a Happy New Year!
MileHigh is banned now from this thread.
Quote from: hartiberlin on December 27, 2012, 01:55:28 AM
MileHigh is banned now from this thread.
thank you very much
Happy New Year!
Quote from: Paul-R on December 20, 2012, 10:27:40 AM
I agree. His work is interesting,. especially the magnetic discs, a departure from Frenette
and possibly bringing in Schauberger, vortices and Lords Knows What.
In fact, if the fluid is electrically conductive, I wonder if there are issues to do
with unipolar generators, bruce depalma and all that.
Hello everyone,
I hope everyone had a good new year start. I am looking forward to this year and everything to come!
I am working on some new tooling for this next Friction Heater build, it is taking me longer then I was thinking but I only want to do it one time not two. Best to take my time. I have also started playing with electric magnetic toys I am making. I will post about them when I am done with my prototype. It has a cool factor and fun.
Best wishes
Gabriel
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on December 23, 2012, 12:23:23 AM
Huh?? Not "playing" any sort of "cop". Simply answering MH post to me earlier.
I have already said that I find this heater "interesting", and actually took some time to research it, the history of friction heaters in the FE community, and spoke with Gabriel via email. It is a detailed build with precise measurments. I also found the idea of combining several ideas within the friction heater, "intriguing". I actually like to build things, not just talk about them. So my own version of a friction heater might make for a fun project. ;) :)
Using the following idea, combined with nanoparticles mixed with the oil, to heat the oil and use as a heater (not as a water heater). Same idea of friction heating the water. This seems a bit more efficient at first glance to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_-DUKQ4Uw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_-DUKQ4Uw)
Cheers,
Bruce
Hi Gabriel,
Thank you for the update. Did you have a chance to look at the above youtube video? Same idea, as far as friction to heat, but a very different design. I would be interested in hearing your thought on this type of set up.
Thanks,
Bruce
Hello Bruce,
I have seen this design and have looked at it closely before making my heater.
what concerns me about the water hammer design or "cavitation making design" is that is it detrimental to its self. Cavitation in this manner of making a micro partial vacuum behind the void will start to chew at the drum
and will fail over a short time. not only that but it will kill the water that is passing though the system.
I am trying to make a long lasting design with "NO" cavitation but with vortex and atomic level friction with very little load. I have not played with plating of the disc at this point but I will be. I wish I could make everything move faster but what I have learned is if it is not waiting for it is not worth having.
Thank you
Gabriel
Quote from: oilpiggy on January 02, 2013, 09:50:21 PM
Hello Bruce,
I have seen this design and have looked at it closely before making my heater.
what concerns me about the water hammer design or "cavitation making design" is that is it detrimental to its self. Cavitation in this manner of making a micro partial vacuum behind the void will start to chew at the drum
and will fail over a short time. not only that but it will kill the water that is passing though the system.
I am trying to make a long lasting design with "NO" cavitation but with vortex and atomic level friction with very little load. I have not played with plating of the disc at this point but I will be. I wish I could make everything move faster but what I have learned is if it is not waiting for it is not worth having.
Thank you
Gabriel
Hi Gabriel,
Hmm... a facinating answer. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "kill the water", but I do follow your reasoning on the atomic level friction. Which brings me to an earlier idea, of looking into introducing nanoparticles to the oil itself. When you read the papers on this, there is increased friction at the atomic level, and increasing the surface area dramatically for which said friction can take place, without enlarging either discs or overall machine. Nickel nanoparticles are inexpensive and readily available. Just an idea for future testing.
Cheers,
Bruce
Hi all, great topic.
I add my 2 cents:
Did some mixing of ideas, (Victor S. , Friction Heater, Hero's steam turbine)
Take a copper egg-shape object
Connect the egg with a combined motor/generator
put a (Tesla) turbine at the outlet of the water (At start up it will act as a pump, after boiling point it will drive the generator)
Put it in a tight egg-shape non magnetic material
Put magnets around the object
Now spin the object with the motor
After you reach steam temperature the fun starts ;-)
References:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7lvKKgkCsM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7lvKKgkCsM) Hero's steam turbine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jWi10yDlMY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jWi10yDlMY) Egg and water
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n5sSmJsCdY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n5sSmJsCdY) magnetic heating
I made a tiny visual of it. Somehow the GIF doesn't play here, but if you play it it will be a tiny animation.
Quote from: Cherryman on January 03, 2013, 08:14:07 AM
Hi all, great topic.
I add my 2 cents:
Did some mixing of ideas, (Victor S. , Friction Heater, Hero's steam turbine)
Take a copper egg-shape object
Connect the egg with a combined motor/generator
put a (Tesla) turbine at the outlet of the water (At start up it will act as a pump, after boiling point it will drive the generator)
Put it in a tight egg-shape non magnetic material
Put magnets around the object
Now spin the object with the motor
After you reach steam temperature the fun starts ;-)
References:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7lvKKgkCsM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7lvKKgkCsM) Hero's steam turbine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jWi10yDlMY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jWi10yDlMY) Egg and water
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n5sSmJsCdY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n5sSmJsCdY) magnetic heating
I made a tiny visual of it. Somehow the GIF doesn't play here, but if you play it it will be a tiny animation.
Any thoughts anyone, as to why the Hero steam turbine rotates, and at such high speed?
Edit: The last video show heating via eddy currents is probably a dead end, due to lenz law. I have thought long and hard on it, and I don't think it can be made to be efficient. The more heat produced, the more strain on the motor.
Cheers,
Bruce
Hi Bruce,
Thats an easy one.
It is a built-up of pressure due to the heat in the water filled hollow ball,
As the water turns into steam, the steam is ejected out of angled nozzles, which provide the rotation.
(Just like a fire-hose on the loose, except now the force is directed to achieve rotation)
My first plan a few years back was to bring friction into heros turbine, like the wood-friction mentioned above.
It is interesting stuff, and all a little overlapping. I see similarities with the Clem engine as well.
here a more clear example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K_r8BUXoMw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K_r8BUXoMw)
Cheers.
Yep, thought perhaps small tiny holes that caused rotation but could not make any out, nor any escaping steam. I will confess, I did fast forward the video.... lol
I edited my comment above, about the eddy current heating.
Thanks,
Bruce
It is still burning fossil fuel....
Good point, Oilpiggy, and thanks again for your work on this heat-producer. Just looking at our heating bills, ugh! we and a lot of folks would be blessed by your device in operation!
Bruce:
QuoteNickel nanoparticles are inexpensive and readily available. Just an idea for future testing.
Cheers,
Bruce
Can you tell us where available? would appreciate.
Also, any connection to Rossi nickel-light-water claims? ;) -- @all
Quote from: JouleSeeker on January 03, 2013, 11:26:16 PM
Good point, Oilpiggy, and thanks again for your work on this heat-producer. Just looking at our heating bills, ugh! we and a lot of folks would be blessed by your device in operation!
Bruce:
Can you tell us where available? would appreciate.
Also, any connection to Rossi nickel-light-water claims? ;) -- @all
Hi JouleSeeker,
Here are a couple of good sources. Many different varieties to choose from.
http://www.ssnano.com/powders (http://www.ssnano.com/powders)
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/aldrich/577995?lang=en®ion=US (http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/aldrich/577995?lang=en®ion=US)
There are many, many sources.
Cheers,
Bruce
Friction to heat :
http://www.patentauction.com/patent.php?nb=7510
http://www.top-topeni.eu/en/parameters-tkt-perun (http://www.top-topeni.eu/en/parameters-tkt-perun)
and heat to electricity :
http://www.exencotech.se/index-filer/Page656.htm (http://www.exencotech.se/index-filer/Page656.htm)
Sincerely
CdL
Very good -- thank you, Bruce.
Hello everyone,
Well I am rebuilding the heater in my house one more time :o The dang thing keeps getting so hot that it keeps burning up the oil >:(
I have a few ideas to try.... I am going to slow down the RPMs and run fewer discs and maybe allow more oil pass through between the non moving discs ;)
lol you know what they say practice makes perfect... 8)
Hello oilpiggy,
Jojoba-oil will work with temperatures up to 500°C !
Probably a solution !
Sincerely
CdL
I ran a Google search for jojoba oil and found nothing ...
do you have a link?
Okay,entering with "jojoba oil as lubricant" I got for example
http://jojobassaf.com/jojoba_oil.php (http://jojobassaf.com/jojoba_oil.php) .
But one handicap today : the price per ltr. !
Sincerely
CdL
p.s.: can the friction heater be optimized with this
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19951107&CC=US&NR=5463914A&KC=A
multi-head gear system ?
Quote from: oilpiggy on January 07, 2013, 11:58:24 AM
Hello everyone,
Well I am rebuilding the heater in my house one more time :o The dang thing keeps getting so hot that it keeps burning up the oil >:(
I have a few ideas to try.... I am going to slow down the RPMs and run fewer discs and maybe allow more oil pass through between the non moving discs ;)
lol you know what they say practice makes perfect... 8)
Hi Gabriel,
Motor oil is designed to run at about 212 deg. F. Canola oil has a flashpoint of 620 deg. F. If you were at 300 deg F. before, Canola oil may be fine, as long as you don't go past say..570 deg. F, for safety.
Slowing the RPM will of course reduce said input power greatly, not a bad idea if you can still maintain the same temp.
Cheers,
Bruce
Thanks Bruce,
I will look into the Canola oil
I don't have a way to get a temp reading from in between the drive discs, so I am not sure how high the temp is getting. I can only get the temp off of the top of the oil in the core. The smoke temp of the oil I am using is 450F and I am clearly smoking it,... it turned it into a dark brown sludge. ??? :o
I really just don't want to use anything but 100% non toxic easily made oils. {at lest for now}
I will make my mods to the core and take some pics and a video then post them in the next 48 hours.
I am still working on the tooling for the testing models as well.
But I must keep my house warm first and foremost so the one for my house takes precedence. :D
Hi Gabriel,
well done.
What is the distance from disc to disc ?
So they are magnetized ? North to South ?
Does it also work without magnetosation ? Did you test this yet ?
Do you also put something into the oil additionally ?
What kind of oil (brand and product number) did you use until now ?
Why are you so sure that you don´t produce any cavitation effects there ?
When did you get this overunity heat when you changed what parameters ?
( You probably built the first prototypes with not so much heat output as now, so
you probably know, what makes it now much better ??)
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: hartiberlin on January 07, 2013, 11:28:10 PM
Hi Gabriel,
well done.
What is the distance from disc to disc ?
So they are magnetized ? North to South ?
Does it also work without magnetosation ? Did you test this yet ?
Do you also put something into the oil additionally ?
What kind of oil (brand and product number) did you use until now ?
Why are you so sure that you don´t produce any cavitation effects there ?
When did you get this overunity heat when you changed what parameters ?
( You probably built the first prototypes with not so much heat output as now, so
you probably know, what makes it now much better ??)
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Hello Stefan,
And thank you.
{Q} 1) "What is the distance from disc to disc ?"
{A} 0.0625
{Q} 2) "So they are magnetized ? North to South ?"
{A} Yes they are but only very lightly, they are set up in N,S,N,S
{Q} 3) "Does it also work without magnetosation ? Did you test this yet ?"
{A} Yes it does work very well without magnetizing them, on my first testing I ran both setups but with the magnetized discs I got a few more degrees out of the heater.
{Q} 4) "Do you also put something into the oil additionally ?"
{A} I only use 100% organic soy bean oils.
{Q} 5) "What kind of oil (brand and product number) did you use until now ?"
{A} I sill am using the same oils but I looking into using refined white mineral oil. It states that it has a smoke temp of 750F but we will see.
{Q} 6) "Why are you so sure that you don´t produce any cavitation effects there ?"
{A} My design is in such a way to not allow for and micro vacuum or any void to be produced as it runs.
{Q} 7) "When did you get this overunity heat when you changed what parameters ?
{A} On my 2nd build is when I got this Friction heater to work as it is. I had to change everything from my 1rst build, it when into the scrap bin.
{Q} 8) " You probably built the first prototypes with not so much heat output as now, so you probably know, what makes it now much better ?
{A} I have learned a lot from this build from the start till now.... and I am still learning. I could make a book from everything I have learned at this point.
Thank you
Gabriel
Here is the new build 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbuZRn9duYE
Quote from: oilpiggy on January 10, 2013, 03:32:15 AM
{Q} 8) " You probably built the first prototypes with not so much heat output as now, so you probably know, what makes it now much better ?
{A} I have learned a lot from this build from the start till now.... and I am still learning. I could make a book from everything I have learned at this point.
Thank you
Gabriel
Hi Gabriel,
yes, would be great, if you could write an ebook and sell it or just give it away freely, what you like...
if you have the time for this.
Probably you still want first to finish your build completely for youself and heating your house with it.
You new build looks great !
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: oilpiggy on January 10, 2013, 03:56:59 AM
Here is the new build 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbuZRn9duYE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbuZRn9duYE)
Well done Gabriel,
but why does it now draw 860 Watts ?
Didn´t you say that the old model was just drawing only 100 Watts ?
860 Watts is a lot of power, if you need to produce this
during wintertime via solarpanels and the sky is overcasts...
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
To compare efficiency, I found the following numbers. 3-ton Goodman heat pump. The kw's are for the outside unit only.
60F, 2.86 kw
50F, 2.75 kw
40F, 2.64 kw
Gabriel's Friction Heater
.860 KW
Cheers,
Bruce
I am interested in the magnetisation, and if there is a unipolar
(or homopolar) generator effect happening.
Presumably, the oil is non conductive. Have you tried running the
equipment with conductive salt water instead of oil?
500W no load electric motor consume , 600W load electric motor consume :
the difference means heater consume as load ergo : 100W ,
this is your calculation,oilpiggy - or not ?
wmkr
CdL
p.s.: oilpiggy wrote about 120sqm heating area and calculating with 20 ° temperature difference and conventional
floor/wall/roof/window/door isolation I would estimate the heat energy consume with 10KW per hour
source: http://www.sonnenkoenig.ch/halogenstrahler/asetid/824/product/junior.html
in red:"Waermebedarf" heat calculation
Quote from: hartiberlin on January 10, 2013, 08:30:30 PM
860 Watts is a lot of power, if you need to produce this
during wintertime via solarpanels and the sky is overcasts...
John Cletus Williams, GA : it is a kind of magic ??? ;) ::)
.... hope.....
2000sqfts (~185sqm) but only 400W ?
http://www.patentauction.com/patent.php?nb=8300
Dear Gabriel
Thank you for sharing you impressive heater and congrats for your machine.
Your new running video with heating up versus time would allow some rough calculations, if you could give
- the approx mass of the steel vessel in Kilogramm. Assumption: 20 kg
- the approx volume or mass of oil filled in. Assumption: 6 kg
Heating Power [W] = mp [kg/s] * cp [kJ/kg K] * dT [K]
With your data: Heating up from 70 F to 200 F in 24 min:
20kg / (24*60s) * 500 J/kg K * (200F - 70F)/1.8F/K = 500 W for heating up the steel vessel
6kg / (24*60s) * 2000J/kg K * (200F - 70F)/1.8F/K = 602 W for heating up the oil
additionally the surrounding is already heating up ...
Regards
cubalibre
Quote from: cubalibre on January 11, 2013, 11:39:09 AM
Dear Gabriel
Thank you for sharing you impressive heater and congrats for your machine.
Your new running video with heating up versus time would allow some rough calculations, if you could give
- the approx mass of the steel vessel in Kilogramm. Assumption: 20 kg
- the approx volume or mass of oil filled in. Assumption: 6 kg
Heating Power [W] = mp [kg/s] * cp [kJ/kg K] * dT [K]
With your data: Heating up from 70 F to 200 F in 24 min:
20kg / (24*60s) * 500 J/kg K * (200F - 70F)/1.8F/K = 500 W for heating up the steel vessel
6kg / (24*60s) * 2000J/kg K * (200F - 70F)/1.8F/K = 602 W for heating up the oil
additionally the surrounding is already heating up ...
Regards
cubalibre
Hello,
The oils weighs 5.21 Kilo
The motor weighs 9.07 Kilo
The core weighs 34.25 Kilo
Total of 48.53 Kilo
The heater rose from 70F to 200F in 23 min.
Thank you
Gabriel
Quote from: lancaIV on January 11, 2013, 10:49:19 AM
500W no load electric motor consume , 600W load electric motor consume :
the difference means heater consume as load ergo : 100W ,
this is your calculation,oilpiggy - or not ?
wmkr
CdL
p.s.: oilpiggy wrote about 120sqm heating area and calculating with 20 ° temperature difference and conventional
floor/wall/roof/window/door isolation I would estimate the heat energy consume with 10KW per hour
source: http://www.sonnenkoenig.ch/halogenstrahler/asetid/824/product/junior.html
in red:"Waermebedarf" heat calculation
Hello,
Yes that was the old system.
Dear Gabriel
Now with your numbers:
Your new running video with heating up versus time allows some rough calculations:
- the approx mass of the steel vessel: 34.25 kg
- the approx mass of oil: 5.21 kg
Heating Power [W] = mp [kg/s] * cp [kJ/kg K] * dT [K]
With your data: Heating up from 70 F to 200 F in 23 min:
34.25kg / (23*60s) * 500 J/kg K * (200F - 70F)/1.8F/K = 896 W for heating up the steel vessel
5.21kg / (23*60s) * 1750J/kg K * (200F - 70F)/1.8F/K = 477 W for heating up the oil
additionally the surrounding is already heating up ...
Regards
cubalibre
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110502212531AAFfzEu
Gabriel
I recall you posting that you had smaller units built[soda can sized]
The issue you have with calorimetry with your device is getting the motor into the test as well [add'l heat].
One of the Gentlemen I work very closely with when I do Efficiency tests
has a method you can do at home [With AMAZING accuracy]
He goes By the Handle Vortex1 at this Forum and ION at the Forum link provided.
BTW this format will work with anything that makes heat and give you a Baseline to measure from.
"Fixed loss to ambient"
A simpler test would be hard to imagine!
Take your device [small device] plug it into A killowatt meter,put it into a cardboard box [do this outside in the cold] The size of the box will be determined by your input power [1 cubic foot up to Fridge size]
start the test, there will be a point where you will no longer be able to
raise the temp in the box due to the heat loss to ambient .
That is your "baseline Mark" X degrees temp rise with X amount of input energy.{KWH]
Now all you have to do is take the same box remove your device and put the appropriate heat resistor determined by the input from your test in place.[light bulbs will do]
Run the test again
if the box won't warm up to the same temp as your device did with the same input energy and ambient temp.
you got somethin to talk about...........[possible happy dance time !:']
The Link here .http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=702.0 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=702.0)
Comments/questions here
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=703.0 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=703.0)
KISS
Thx
Chet
PS
There are some profoundly obvious parameters
RE: do test at same Ambient temp [simultaneous as in link would be good]
don't have Breeze or wind etc etc]
Any Questions Pm me
Hello Chet,
I would like to chat with you on the phone, when would be a good time?
Gabriel
I'll give you a ring tomorrow [late here]
Thx
Chet
Dear Gabriel
The interpretation of the numbers:
Input power: 860W
Heating power: oil heating 477W plus steel core heating 896W
COP: 1.6 = overunity !!!
Input energy: 860W during 23min. = 0.3 kWh
Output energy stored as heat in the core = 0.48 kWh plus additional room heating during 23min.
The room heating can be estimated/calculated if you provide a cool down temperature over time:
Stop the motor at 200F. Measure the time to cool down to 180F / 160F / 140F / 120F / 100F / 80F.
I assumed that the motor did not heat up at all.
All in all your heater looks very interesting!
Regards
cubalibre
Thank you ;D
My Portable Space Heater in my office:
Output Temperature = aprox 90 degrees F.
11.45 amps
120.2 volts
1,376.29 Watts
1.376 kwh
Running 24/7 = 33.02 KWH per day x 30 days in a month = 990.60 KWH used @ 8.5 cents per KWH (my rate) is $84.20 per monthly operating cost.
Gabriels Heater:
Output Temp = 200 degrees F.
20.64 KWH per day x 30 days = 619.20 KWH used @ 8.5 cents per KWH is $52.63 per monthly operating cost.
Very, very interesting...
Cheers,
Bruce
Yes
Very interesting,Where I live [north east]the KWH runs around 18 cents...
ultimately after they get done tacking on all the "addendums" it ends up around 30 something.......
Keeping 1300 sq ft of poorly insulated space "toasty" with 800 watts of input
and outside temps 15 degrees F.
Well,I built to R 50 standards and my Winter living space is 600 sq FT.
a 1500 watt elec heater starts gasping when outside temps hit 25 degrees F
(of course out side Wind speeds effect this tremendously].
One thing I wanted to mention to Gabriel
Synthetic oil is not supposed to emit Flammable Vapors .[at least not at these temps]
Running your "full sized" rig in a small sealed space with "other Oils"
well make sure you run some "flammable Vapor" tests with your "other Oil" first. [check the synthetic while your at it]
heat small samples out side to establish safety parameters [flammability].
I suspect at the temps your working at this will be a moot point,however
??
Have Fun...........
Thx
Chet
PS
Once you establish that ION'S {vortex 1 Here] "fixed loss to ambient"test
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=702.0 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=702.0)
is Doable/practical with your Full sized rig , setting up a simultanious comparison test with the resistive heater in the same environment will definately make your day
[a little competition!:'}
Hi Oilpiggy.
do you have some news to share?
Thanks.
As far as official testing goes... still waiting
But I have posted new vids on YouTube with a direct drive system. http://www.youtube.com/user/oilpiggy/videos?flow=grid&view=0
I do have Kits and plans available.
Thank you
Gabriel
Hello Gabriel!
I saw your heater on YouTube, am impressed by what you've done and joined the group to ask a few basic questions.
I see by your video's you've reduced the amount of disc's.
Believe you're down to 6 now(?).
Correct?
Next would be the amount of fluid.
Frenette used very little, but I assume you fill to cover your disc's?
Since Frenette used a drum (or cylinder) his surface area was covered (or to the point he wished it to be).
Since you use a horizontal disc, I assume you fill more.
Next one would be fluid of preference?
Seems to be a lot of discussion over which.
And at what RPM is best.
Leads to next...
As I read and research this, I find that RPM is very important.
I see you're using a 1 horsepower motor.
Is that because of RPM requirement or torque requirement?
Or possibly the best of both that was most efficient?
That leads to; What RPM have you found to be most beneficial.
I am excited by what you've done.
I'm going to build a 'proof of concept' unit.
Actually already started it... Just hit more questions, ideas and direction issues.
Hi folks, Hi oilpiggy, if you are still watching this thread, emailed you about what your cost is for one of your friction heater kits.
So, since no reply and it probably is not in my budget anyway, am building a model similar to yours, though without machining or welding.
Just picked up 6 plywood saw blades for the rotating plates 7 1/4" diameter blades.
Going to use high density fiberboard for stationary plates and ring spacers, they will be laminated with aluminum to sink the heat away from wood, through the oil and out to the aluminum roof flashing outer cylinder.
Shaft will be threaded rod with thick steel washers as spacers, then one nut on each end to compress and hold the rotating assembly together, avoiding need for keyed machined shaft.
Then when assembled, it can be inserted into cylinder with bearings at both ends.
Will be posting a cad drawing at other forum with pics to show progress and maybe here if anyone responds.
Idea is to make it cheap and still work well.
The paint can model worked well, 182 F. in 20 minutes, so with the much increased surface area of oilpiggys design and tighter gaps, this should crank some heat out, we will see.
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/14547-fuelless-friction-heater-other-heaters.html#post246342 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/14547-fuelless-friction-heater-other-heaters.html#post246342)
peace love light
tyson
Very interested in your thoughts and direction!
Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on December 10, 2013, 01:19:13 AM
Hi folks, Hi oilpiggy, if you are still watching this thread, emailed you about what your cost is for one of your friction heater kits.
So, since no reply and it probably is not in my budget anyway, am building a model similar to yours, though without machining or welding.
Just picked up 6 plywood saw blades for the rotating plates 7 1/4" diameter blades.
Going to use high density fiberboard for stationary plates and ring spacers, they will be laminated with aluminum to sink the heat away from wood, through the oil and out to the aluminum roof flashing outer cylinder.
Shaft will be threaded rod with thick steel washers as spacers, then one nut on each end to compress and hold the rotating assembly together, avoiding need for keyed machined shaft.
Then when assembled, it can be inserted into cylinder with bearings at both ends.
Will be posting a cad drawing at other forum with pics to show progress and maybe here if anyone responds.
Idea is to make it cheap and still work well.
The paint can model worked well, 182 F. in 20 minutes, so with the much increased surface area of oilpiggys design and tighter gaps, this should crank some heat out, we will see.
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/14547-fuelless-friction-heater-other-heaters.html#post246342 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/14547-fuelless-friction-heater-other-heaters.html#post246342)
peace love light
tyson
http://shelf3d.com/Search/Heat%2BSteam%2BWater%2BPumps%2BPlayListIDPLBFF7BF0D7477B812
Make a lots of holes to the egg shape. The cavitation gives free heat energy for you.
If you wish to get heat from water friction, close the valve on a centrifugal pump. If you want to water the garden open the same valve. The more vanes you have passing through the water, the faster heating shall occur and also the power bill will go up faster .
Sorry I did not get back to you, I do get a lot of emails and I do try to get back to all of them.
I have a new design with a VFD and a 3phase motor. I think I have maybe 3 more days until its done and I will be able to start testing.
Try and send me a new email, I will be looking for it.
Thank you
Gabriel Peterson
Here is the heater setup and running, I am planning on adding 6 more drive discs for testing, Take a look @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErDldDkQ7wE
How do I test the heat out put again in water ?
I am a little more set up for testing now. ;)
Quote from: oilpiggy on December 12, 2013, 11:35:47 AM
Here is the heater setup and running, I am planning on adding 6 more drive discs for testing, Take a look @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErDldDkQ7wE
How do I test the heat out put again in water ?
I am a little more set up for testing now. ;)
Water will absorb 100% heat. By placing your heater in water of a known temperature for a known time you will both discover the heat output (max) of your heater and the wattage needed to achieve, this then can be compared to electrical element heating.
Quote from: DaS Energy on December 13, 2013, 04:27:27 AM
Water will absorb 100% heat. By placing your heater in water of a known temperature for a known time you will both discover the heat output (max) of your heater and the wattage needed to achieve, this then can be compared to electrical element heating.
Of course, you will need to know the volume of the water (or its weight).
So
set volume of water,
start temp of water,
water temp rise over time and power taken for that rise. ?
So if I use 1 U.S. gallon and the heater runs at around 500 watts, how much temp rise should I get over over what time?
How much does 1 watt heat? or should it heat?
Volume is one gallon (Am). Your competing against electric element that takes 790KW one hour to heat tank water 1*C, or 375KW 1*F. For further reference see Wattlow.
It is indeed better to do calorimetery based in a fluid like water than it is to do the
same thing in air. The reason that it is better to convert your unit temporarily from a
furnace into a water heater is because you would like to integrate the heat into a small
volume of fluid, seal it, insulate it, mix it and measure it's net temperature. This is a
much easier thing to do using a fluid such as water with it's high thermal inertia than
it is for heat in a large volume of air. It's trivial to convert your unit, just put the whole
lower portion into a secondary oil bath and put a copper pipe wrapped in a spiral into
the oil bath. The water then flows through the spiral tube. If the unit is properly insulated
eventual any heat energy input must come out.
---
You asked about the heat analytics equation;
As part of a LENR demonstration I calculated based on immersion element water heaters.
...That 1 Megawatt Continuous of electrical current (=1MWH) will heat 400 gallons of water
...raising the temperature 100 Degrees Fahrenheit above it's beginning temperature
...after one hour. These figures have more decimal accuracy then the printed numbers
...implies so I think it is a good way to remember and they can be scaled (down) easily.
Of course a resistive immersion water heater refer to the devices heating elements being
immersed under water in a tank, so any heat energy placed there pretty much has no where
else to go but into the water already inside the heaters. The thermal momentum of your
converted device conduction maybe won't be as good initially.
---
Finally, Measuring or proving overunity efficiency or not after you have got the above working.
Here is a method that is based on my reading of a LENR demonstration that can pretty much
be used to prove whether or not your unit produces *overunity* output energy. That is, produces
more heat energy out then resistive water heating. (This assumes that you are not oxidizing/
scorching any oil, or any seals ect.) Unfortunately this method does not get away from taking a
power reading from your units input motor - this must still be done accurately.
(1) Take 2 x identical tankless point-of-use-hot-water-heaters and hook them up to an
adjustable Variac autotransformer so that input power to the heaters is adjustable. Run the
utility current first to a center tapped 120VAC -> 12VAC stepdown power transformer where
one leg of the input circuit is connected to the secondary center tap. This means that one side
of the secondary will be running at a 5% higher voltage than line voltage while the other side
will be running 5% lower than line voltage due to the phase difference of primary and secondary.
Run one heater on the higher voltage and one on the lower voltage circuit.
(2) Now run three equal volume water streams one into each heater. These can be taps
adjusted from an input water manifold or better yet a three stream peristaltic pump.
Now turn on these unit and manually adjust the water heater Variac to keep the output water
temperature of your unit approximately centered between the temperature of the output of
the two water heaters. Record the input power levels and times of the adjustment.
Finally Compare the total amount of energy averaged (/2) to the water heaters to the total
amount of energy used by your unit's motor. Overunity or not?
:S:MarkSCoffman
Quote from: oilpiggy on December 13, 2013, 10:57:53 AM
So
set volume of water,
start temp of water,
water temp rise over time and power taken for that rise. ?
So if I use 1 U.S. gallon and the heater runs at around 500 watts, how much temp rise should I get over over what time?
How much does 1 watt heat? or should it heat?
Hi. Steve J here.
Since input ENERGY is measured in KW-hours, or Watt-secs = Joules, I would stick with International Units, liters, ml, deg-C, joules, KW, etc. Conversion gallons to liters is easy
1 Gallon (US) = 3.78541178 Liters1 liter = 1000 ml.
Energy in : 1 W-hour = 3600 Joules. 0.01 KW-h (easy to read on some meters) = 10 W-h = 36,000 J.
Heating water, energy called "Q"
Q (in Joules) = 4.19 x (grams of H2O heated) x (Temp-final - Temp-initial in deg C),
easy.
If vaporizing water at 100 deg-C,
Qvap = (grams vaporized away) x 2260 J/g
= ( )g x 0.628 W-h/g
Let me know if you have any questions!
Steve in Missouri
Hi folks, Hi olddawgsrule, thanks for interest, will be posting pics and info. as i go.
Just started cutting stationary plates today, using router and guide plate, will post some pics soon, here and at other forum.
Hi oilpiggy, thanks for the reply, your reply here is good enough and thanks for the new video.
Hoping my ideas work out for this heater, we will see.
peace love light
tyson
Quote from: oilpiggy on December 13, 2013, 10:57:53 AM
So if I use 1 U.S. gallon and the heater runs at around 500 watts, how much temp rise should I get over over what time?
How much does 1 watt heat? or should it heat?
approx. 4.2 joules of energy will raise the temperature of 1 gram of water 1 degree Celsius, and a Watt is 1 joule expended per second.
So, for 1 US gallon ~ 3785 grams of water requires 3785 * 4.2 = 15897 joules to raise it one degree Celsius.
500 watts is 500 joules expended per second so it will take 15897 / 500 = 31.7 seconds to raise the temperature 1 degree Celsius. (~17.6 seconds per degree Fahrenheit )
The above is only valid for temperature range of liquid water.
Well I have not done the water test but I have done the How much my heat bill is test.
I have been testing this running in my 2010 5th wheel keeping it @ 78F at night, around 450sq. ft., new power grid @ .34 cents a Kilowatt.
The heater is running around 600 watts, for about 12 hours a day run time.
Tell me guys can a 600 watt heater from Wal-Mart heat a 450 sq ft RV? Out side temp at night here has been around 35 to 40F at night.
Lets just say Propane or Old School heater was not working here is the new School. @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBXnnagylls
Thank you
Gabriel Peterson
Quote from: oilpiggy on December 24, 2013, 08:37:56 PM
Well I have not done the water test but I have done the How much my heat bill is test.
I have been testing this running in my 2010 5th wheel keeping it @ 78F at night, around 450sq. ft., new power grid @ .34 cents a Kilowatt.
The heater is running around 600 watts, for about 12 hours a day run time.
Tell me guys can a 600 watt heater from Wal-Mart heat a 450 sq ft RV? Out side temp at night here has been around 35 to 40F at night.
Lets just say Propane or Old School heater was not working here is the new School. @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBXnnagylls
Thank you
Gabriel Peterson
Rather than wasting time with idle conjecture, why not just do the simple test to see how quickly it will raise a known amount of water a known temperature. My guess is you will find nothing remarkable is happening.
Hi folks, Hi oilpiggy, thanks again for sharing your work and progress.
Well, my 600 watt input light bulb heater can raise an approximately 400-450 square foot room, ok insulation, by 4-5 degrees F. around 68 F. with outside temps at 13 degrees F.
Could you pickup a 600 watt heater cheap from the store or get one second hand perhaps.
That would be a good real world comparison test.
I realize the calorimetric water tests are helpful, though i think real world application tests prove the practical value better, given a particular usage situation.
Still working on my version of the disk heater and a 16 quart drum friction heater.
peace love light
tyson
Ok here is the "no more useless banter" or this could still just be useless banter I don't know... :P
I ran a easy not so easy water test, a lot of lose ends, but non the less here it is.
I took readings every 5 min.
Volts @ 220 Amps change over time/ lower as water get hotter.
Core out side the the water start temp @ 68F run time 10 min @ 3 Amps top temp before putting into the water was 205F around 660 watts.
2 US GAL. in a bucket uninsulated to the environment @ 56F
I put the heat core in the water tank/ bucket. after 5 min water temp was @ 78F Amps when up to 3.8 / 836 watts.
10 Minutes later water temp was 86F @ 3.5 Amps. watts 770, Temp rise in 5 min 8F 133.28 BTU min, x 60 = 7996.8 BTU/h
15 Minutes later water temp was 95 @ 3.4 Amps. watts 748, Temp rise in 5 min 9F 149.94 BTU min, x 60 = 8996.4 BTU/h
20 Minutes later water temp was 102 @ 3.3 Amps. watts 726, Temp rise in 5 min 7F 116.62 BTU min, x 60 = 6997.2 BTU/h
25 Minutes later water temp was 108 @ 3.2 Amps watts 704, Temp rise in 5 min 6F 99.96 BTU min, x 60 = 5997.6 BTU/h
Watts to BTU calculator;
770 watts should = 2627.34 BTU/h
748 watts should = 2552.28 BTU/h
726 watts should = 2477.21 BTU/h
704 watts should = 2402.15 BTU/h
From my understanding about this water heating, and its not much BTW :o. that Heat corresponding to change in temperature of 2 gallon of water by 1° Fahrenheit = 16.66 BTU, that is if my info is good. That's BTU per min. then times it by 60 to get BTU per hour.
I know there is a lot of losses in this test and I will try to fix that in the future.
Ok, time for you guys to cut, chop, and slash at it, tell me what I am doing wrong or what I should do to next.
Thank you,
Gabriel Peterson
@ Skywatcher
So a 600 light bulb heater is a 2047.28 BTU/h rated heater?
Quote from: oilpiggy on January 27, 2014, 08:52:20 PM
Ok here is the "no more useless banter" or this could still just be useless banter I don't know... :P
I ran a easy not so easy water test, a lot of lose ends, but non the less here it is.
I took readings every 5 min.
Volts @ 220 Amps change over time/ lower as water get hotter.
Core out side the the water start temp @ 68F run time 10 min @ 3 Amps top temp before putting into the water was 205F around 660 watts.
2 US GAL. in a bucket uninsulated to the environment @ 56F
I put the heat core in the water tank/ bucket. after 5 min water temp was @ 78F Amps when up to 3.8 / 836 watts.
10 Minutes later water temp was 86F @ 3.5 Amps. watts 770, Temp rise in 5 min 8F 133.28 BTU min, x 60 = 7996.8 BTU/h
15 Minutes later water temp was 95 @ 3.4 Amps. watts 748, Temp rise in 5 min 9F 149.94 BTU min, x 60 = 8996.4 BTU/h
20 Minutes later water temp was 102 @ 3.3 Amps. watts 726, Temp rise in 5 min 7F 116.62 BTU min, x 60 = 6997.2 BTU/h
25 Minutes later water temp was 108 @ 3.2 Amps watts 704, Temp rise in 5 min 6F 99.96 BTU min, x 60 = 5997.6 BTU/h
Watts to BTU calculator;
770 watts should = 2627.34 BTU/h
748 watts should = 2552.28 BTU/h
726 watts should = 2477.21 BTU/h
704 watts should = 2402.15 BTU/h
From my understanding about this water heating, and its not much BTW :o. that Heat corresponding to change in temperature of 2 gallon of water by 1° Fahrenheit = 16.66 BTU, that is if my info is good. That's BTU per min. then times it by 60 to get BTU per hour.
I know there is a lot of losses in this test and I will try to fix that in the future.
Ok, time for you guys to cut, chop, and slash at it, tell me what I am doing wrong or what I should do to next.
Thank you,
Gabriel Peterson
I am thinking my Math was wrong here..... Very wrong. ::) .. lol oo well
I am thinking the Math should of been more like this.
10 Minutes later water temp was 86F @ 3.5 Amps. watts 770, Temp rise in 5 min 8F / 5= 1.6 x 16.33= 26.128 BTU min x 60 min = 1567.68 BTU/h "and so on" 133.28 BTU min, x 60 = 7996.8 BTU/h
15 Minutes later water temp was 95 @ 3.4 Amps. watts 748, Temp rise in 5 min 9F 149.94 BTU min, x 60 = 8996.4 BTU/h
20 Minutes later water temp was 102 @ 3.3 Amps. watts 726, Temp rise in 5 min 7F 116.62 BTU min, x 60 = 6997.2 BTU/h
25 Minutes later water temp was 108 @ 3.2 Amps watts 704, Temp rise in 5 min 6F 99.96 BTU min, x 60 = 5997.6 BTU/h
Now I have a target Temp rise to hit with my 2 gallons of water test bucket, running @ 800 watts max, I need to see 3 F per min. or better.
Hi folks, Hi oilpiggy, I think it's time to get this thread going again, it's getting cold again, hehe.
Well, i decided to give it another shot, this time I'm cutting my own 22 gauge steel disks by hand, though without oilpiggy's stationary intervening plates, like the design shown in patrick kellys chapter 14.
I was testing with just the one 6-5/8" diameter steel disk today at around 2100 rpm and in a minute, it was starting to heat up nicely, Unfortunately, this particular aluminum drum was using a paint can previously as the rotating part and it must have damaged the high temp. sealant, so it was leaking a bit.
So i reapplied sealant again and waiting to dry for further testing.
Using the 300 watt rated drill press motor was pulling 250 watts on killiwatt meter at around 2100 rpm, no load is around 140 watts if i remember correctly.
Plan on adding more disks after i test the single disk a bit more.
How are things going with your heater oilpiggy. ;) :)
I notice that oilpiggy hasn't been on the overunity.com site since Feb 2014.
But if you go to youtube.com and type in oilpiggy user name into the search box,
you should find he has put up a number of excellent videos in the last year. His latest
shows how to assemble his unit so is telling as to how well it runs.
I was hoping he would show an optimized delta frequency control to maximize
total heat output based in the changes in working fluid viscosity but I realize this
is a bit much.
He appears to be looking towards continuous water heating. His unit appears
excellent in design.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Hello everyone,
I am still around and I am still working on the Friction heaters. I just have not been on any forums, it is much easier for me to just up load videos and then reply to Emails.
One more thing Don't waste your time with the design shown in patrick kellys chapter 14, It is crap! I have tried to get him to update the design but he just does not want to. Never the less that will lead you down a road that will make you feel like you have lost time in something that does not work. If you follow my design you will Great success and also be very happy about the heat output.
DOT5, or Glycol systems seem to hold up in my design and be able to hold over long run times @ F275 to F350, If you Run the DOT5 you will have to vent to the out side, with Glycol you have to keep it hydrated, nevertheless they both work very well.
Hi folks, thanks for the info coffman, though just wanted to share here what results i find with this design.
Hi oilpiggy, thanks for the reply and the tip, though i don't think anything is a waste of time, always something to learn, besides i don't have access to machines to be able to make what you have.
And my goal has always been to build something that anyone can build with typical cheap tools.
I can see a way to build the stationary spacer plates and rings your design has without using machining, though for now, i will test this design more in depth.
You say this design is crap, does that mean you have tried this arrangement and did not get good heat output?
So far, the results are fairly good, considering it has only one 6-1/2" diameter, 22 gauge steel disk so far.
It reached 140F in around 10 minutes, not great, but it's a start.
Will be making another disk and see how much heat 2 disks will output and so on.
In case anyone is or will be trying this alternate design.
After i used sheet metal snips to cut steel disk and drilled shaft hole, i had to create a template using cad and printed it, cut it out and placed on top of steel disk with shaft and nuts holding it together.
Then using metal snips, cut the excess metal and this made the disk much closer to a true circle and ran much better in the machine.
This was needed, because it is difficult with hand tools or even a drill press, to get an exact hole drilled in the center of the disk.
Will post further results when i get them.
peace love light :)
I am herefor the first time on overunity forum. In this tread, this heater is very interesting. I have question, and if somebody can answer to me. Is it possible to conect this heater with heat pump and make better results in heating home? Sorry for my english , Iam from Serbia!
Best regards to all of you on this forum.
Monetteint, Belgrade, Serbia
@ Skywatcher,
Yes you right about learning,. and yes I have replicated that design after having a conversation with Kelly.
It was a 6" made just like you see in chapter 14. It was an EPIC fail.!I reported back with still no changes in the Book, I am not sure why but I guess he has is reasons. Of course if someone wants to build that then more power to them, they will not be satisfied with it at the end of the day. There are many ways of making my style of heater with a lathe, but really you can pick one up for a few hundred dollars on Craigs list and if you into building and experimenting then I am sure you will be using it for many other projects.
@ monetteint,
The answer is yes! feel free to email me @ frictionheater@hotmail.com if you would like.
Best wishes to everyone's builds
Hi folks, Hi oilpiggy, thanks for the additional information.
So far I have to agree, the design in chapter 14 is not the best design, though if it is changed a bit, it can be better.
I added two more disks for a total of 3 steel disks.
The addition of these disks did not show much of an increase in the rate of heating, nor the max. temperature plateau.
It seems that 2 disks is plenty with the Kelly design, it can reach 184F., though it takes almost an hour to get to that temperature, so not ideal.
The drum style rotor outperforms this design, though with that said, the drill press motor was only drawing 250 watts to reach that 184F., so in that respect, it may be usable to heat a smaller room.
It seems that the friction heater principle needs two close metal surfaces of decent surface area with the oil in between, to yield quicker heat up times and higher temps.
The Kelly design does not have that, so i assume it is just the friction happening between the oil and the disk itself, though if that is the case, then why did the rate of heating not increase with added disks.
Disks used 1/4" gap between each disk.
So maybe the disks are spinning up the oil and maybe it is the oil making contact with aluminum stationary cylinder, that may be the main cause of heat generation in this design, which might explain why added disks have little effect.
I have some ideas on how to make the stationary plates and spacers using a proper material like steel, instead of the failed method i tried previously, using wood wrapped in aluminum, which did not work.
So the question I have been pondering oilpiggy, the P. Kelly book design is very similar to your design, except your design has the stationary plates very close to the rotating disks, why do you think when adding more disks to the Kelly design, is not yielding quicker heating and higher temperature?
The rotating drum design is rotating the oil quickly around the inside of the aluminum cylinder, probably the small space helps also.
Though your design, is taking the oil and flinging it outward from the center of each disk, with probably the same added advantage of the closely spaced adjacent steel plate to add friction.
I know your heater works well, I'm only trying to comprehend what are the key aspects contributing to the heating effect.
Any information is greatly appreciated, thanks. :)
peace love light
If you feel like you can make that design better with some mods then hats off to you. :)
I will make one out of clear plastic to show the fluid flow, Remember I do not use oil anymore.
Best wishes on your build. It's nice to see other people working in this field.
Hi oilpiggy, thanks for the reply.
Wow, that would be a good thing I think, to see the fluid flow.
I'm not sure how to make Kelly's design much better, I'm thinking more how to build your design without using a lathe, etc., only using hand tools and drill press, etc..
Have you wanted to see the fluid motion yourself, is that why you are saying you are going to make in clear plastic?
If you oilpiggy or anyone else has any ideas how to make your design without a lathe, I would greatly appreciate hearing any ideas.
Otherwise, i will start to fiddle with ways to make it with common tools, etc..
peace love light :)
I am interested in this design but I am waiting until I get some free turning energy. My feeling is that how the viscosity of the
working fluid changes over time is a very sensitive critical factor in the temperature rise. You would need a frequency controller
hooked to computer to do these type of tests as well a fluid style temperature measurement. Also a 240 ct 120Volt power
transformer could act as an automatic transmission.
---
Heatpumps have resistance heaters that come on if outdoor temperatures drop too low and this application would ideal for this as
the duty cycle of operation would generally be quite low.
---
Keep up the good work as people, including me, are interested in this.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Hi folks, so I have been giving this some thought and I have an idea as to why the Kelly book chapter 14 design, is not increasing much in rate of heating, when steel disks are added and of course more oil is added to accommodate the additional disks.
I think much of the oil is being centrifugally pushed towards the cylinder walls and this means the oil is barely making contact with the rotating steel disks.
However, in oilpiggy's design, with the stationary intervening steel plates, i think a pressure is built between them and the oil stays in shear contact with the rotating disks.
Also, heat is gained from the shear of the stationary plates as well.
So I think this is the problem with my build, the oil is being allowed to be pushed to the periphery of the disks and only the edges of the disks are making shear contact with the oil.
With the last build i made with my makeshift stationary plates, I did observe the oil rising up through the gap around the drive shaft and resulting low heat production.
So, what i feel needs to be tried, is a plate mounted lower in the cylinder and the 3 disks will be below this filled full with oil and somehow seal the shaft from that chamber so all of the oil stays within that chamber.
I think the pressure that is built up, will help heating as well.
At this moment, i am not aware of how to seal the shaft, though i assume these must exist or something can be made, I'll have to research how to seal the shaft.
peace love light
Thank you, I don't plan on stopping anytime soon. I have many more ideas to implement into this system, like a pulsed magnet motor.
I am building one with a water jacket around the out side of the body for a heat exchanger or heated flooring. The clear model will be for demonstrations for people to see how it works and to clear up the fact that there is NO cavitation in the system.
@ skywatcher , I will try to come up with some ideas for people to make this common garage tools.
Give me a list of tools that I would have to work with and I will see what I can come up with.
Thank you
Gabriel Peterson / on YouTube Oilpiggy
Email: Frictionheater@hotmail.com
Hi oilpiggy, thanks for the quick reply and your willingness to help people, including me, try and build this with more common means or tools.
Well, i have a small drill press, though that is not available at the moment, because i'm using the motor for this project, hehe.
Though i have Drills, sheet metal cutters, jig saw, p.c. cad for templates and most other common tools.
What do you think about my thoughts on why my build isn't heating very quickly, the idea of the oil being pushed away from making contact with disks, thanks. :o ;)
Your willingness to help, is impressive oilpiggy, thanks. :)
peace love light
Hi folks, Hi oilpiggy, this is to show what is happening with the oil fluid flow.
It is as i suspected, the oil is being almost completely flung away in all directions from the disk.
Oh, this test was using an abrasive circular saw blade 6-1/2" diameter and it worked just the same as the steel disks.
I took the picture through a small peek hole above cylinder, as can be seen, hardly any oil is making contact with the disk itself, only the periphery of the disk is making contact with oil and it is mainly making contact with aluminum cylinder inner walls.
And the oil is spinning rather slowly at that, around the inner aluminum cylinder wall.
All this explains to me why the heating rate is so slow and also why adding more disks is barely noticeable as far as heating rate and max. temperature.
Max. temp. was 188F. for this test.
Your thoughts appreciated oilpiggy and anyone else having thoughts on this.
peace love light
Skywatcher, do you have the alternating rotating and stationary discs? The stationary ones have a larger hole in the middle, allowing oil to come on around the spindle that holds the rotating discs. The container needs to be nearly full of oil so it can recirculate. The saw blade will likely areate the oil too much.
Just my brief $.02
Hi pronbo, thanks for the reply.
No this build does not have any stationary plates, wanted to see how it performed and with what we can see, the disk version needs that stationary plate to recirculate the oil back onto the rotating disks and the close proximity of that plate and disk probably builds even more heat.
I plan to mount a plate closely to the disk with larger shaft hole cut out, to do just as you say, still brainstorming how i'm going to do that with common tools.
The aluminum oxide abrasion saw blade was just another test, i will go back to the steel disks i have made.
peace love light
Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on November 07, 2014, 11:11:46 AM
No this build does not have any stationary plates,
I don't think stationary plates are generally called for. See page 14:
http://www.free-energy-info.com/Chapter14.pdf
Hi paul, in that design you are correct, though as can be seen in previous pages pictures i posted, without the static plates, the oil has no way to get pulled back to the center of the disks, which help create more heat and also the small gap between static plate and disk helps alot.
So with only rotating disks, the oil slowly rotates around inner drum walls, which is what creates the heating.
The rotating drum design outperforms the Kelly disk design as far as heat up time.
This is mainly because, say using a steel paint can, the small gap between paint can and outer static drum creates more pressure and allows the oil to rise higher and make greater contact with a larger surface area of the inner walls of the static aluminum outer drum.
Also, the smaller gap and its elevated pressure, so the oil is probably rotating faster, which heats up at least 3 times faster to same temperature as the Kelly Chapter 14 design.
With that said, the Kelly design with only disks rotating, it may heat up slower, however mine reached 188F. using only 250 watts average on the killiwatt meter and given some more time, would probably have come close to 200F. temperature.
Oilpiggy's design in my opinion, is a more efficient way and more effective way to generate heat than the rotating drum and just using disks alone, though not as easy to build.
peace love light
Hi folks, here is my static plate design i will be testing.
It will be aligned in proper place and screwed in, holes in outer aluminum cylinder will be sealed .
The only downside to this design, may be that since another rotating disk will not be directly on the other side of static plate, it may not heat up to as high of a temperature as oilpiggy's heater, we will see.
Your comments, questions always welcome.
peace love light :)
Hi folks, tested with the static plate setup today.
Since i did not seal the edges of the plate, oil was flowing from the edges and back down into the center hole.
I also did not have enough oil on hand to fill high enough, so the disk was an inch away from the static steel plate.
The heat up rate was a little bit improved.
So, i sealed the edges of static plate and i will test that tomorrow and when i get more oil, will test that also.
peace love light
Hi folks, i abandoned further tests with my makeshift static plate idea, i came to the conclusion, the only way to do that kind of setup, oilpiggy's design, is to machine it properly.
So, i disassembled and patched holes and am back to just rotating disks.
However, my thought was, that if i placed each disk further apart.
So that it catches the rising oil, to further increase the oils rotation speed and it pulls the oil up even higher along the aluminum inner walls.
This causes more rapid heat up and raises max. temperature.
So i tested this today, using as the first bottom disk, the aluminum oxide abrasive saw blade.
Then spaced apart another steel disk with a gap of around 1-1/4".
This second disk did grab the oil and raise it higher and appeared to be rotating oil a little quicker.
The results were much improved rate of heating, from 68 F. up to 160 F., it was climbing at a rate between 5-6 degrees per minute.
This then tapered off at 160 F. and it took almost an hour from that point to reach 200 F.
So, i plan to add another disk, etc. and see how the results change.
It should be noted, that the way this is working is different from Kelly's design in chapter 14.
Because in Kelly's design, they fill almost full the entire cylinder, where as this setup is pulling much less oil upward along the inner walls using less rotating disks.
Average power input was 272 watts on killiwatt meter.
All comments and questions welcome.
peace love light
Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on November 09, 2014, 10:09:55 PM
Hi folks, i abandoned further tests with my makeshift static plate idea, i came to the conclusion, the only way to do that kind of setup, oilpiggy's design, is to machine it properly.
So, i disassembled and patched holes and am back to just rotating disks.
However, my thought was, that if i placed each disk further apart.
So that it catches the rising oil, to further increase the oils rotation speed and it pulls the oil up even higher along the aluminum inner walls.
This causes more rapid heat up and raises max. temperature.
So i tested this today, using as the first bottom disk, the aluminum oxide abrasive saw blade.
Then spaced apart another steel disk with a gap of around 1-1/4".
This second disk did grab the oil and raise it higher and appeared to be rotating oil a little quicker.
The results were much improved rate of heating, from 68 F. up to 160 F., it was climbing at a rate between 5-6 degrees per minute.
This then tapered off at 160 F. and it took almost an hour from that point to reach 200 F.
So, i plan to add another disk, etc. and see how the results change.
It should be noted, that the way this is working is different from Kelly's design in chapter 14.
Because in Kelly's design, they fill almost full the entire cylinder, where as this setup is pulling much less oil upward along the inner walls using less rotating disks.
Average power input was 272 watts on killiwatt meter.
All comments and questions welcome.
peace love light
Skywatcher:
Have you checked and compared the amp draw on your motor during these experiments? What I mean to say is...if you are getting more heating, does this show up as a higher drag on your motor's energy input? I suspect that it might but am not sure. I see that you say 272 watts on the killawatt meter for this run, but how does that compare to previous runs with less heating?
If you have stated this before and I missed it, I apologize.
Nice work.
Bill
Hi pirate, the last similar test was with the same 2 disks, though they were only spaced 1/4" apart gap.
That previous test drew 250 watts average on killiwatt meter and only reached 188 F. and the heat rate was much slower overall.
I'm getting a couple more of the aluminum oxide saw blades, so will be testing with at least 3 or more disks and compare results.
The amount of oil and how deep the first disk is set into the oil seems to play a role and keep in mind these aluminum oxide disks are insulators of electricity.
All heat is being generated, i think, from oil contacting inner walls of outer aluminum cylinder.
If these further disk tests do not show improved heat up rate above 160 F., i may wrap aluminum sheet around 2 of the disks and use it as a rotating drum and this should run much truer than i can manage with a paint can.
peace love light
Hi folks, well this is not exactly similar to oilpiggy's design, though i thought i would share what i will be testing tomorrow.
Besides, if it works well, it is a good alternative to building a drum style heater that anyone can build and it should run very true.
It is built using almost a full roll of aluminum roof flashing cut to size with tin snips.
Each end has a disk, it seems hardware stores don't carry the 6-12" aluminum oxide saw blades anymore, so i used the one i had and the other end has a steel disk i made.
I aluminum taped it together, then riveted it solid and used high temp sealant to hold and seal it together.
The sealant may not be good for long term use, though if it works well, it can be jb welded later.
Questions and comments welcome.
peace love light
Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on November 12, 2014, 11:50:15 PM
Hi folks, well this is not exactly similar to oilpiggy's design, though i thought i would share what i will be testing tomorrow.
Besides, if it works well, it is a good alternative to building a drum style heater that anyone can build and it should run very true.
It is built using almost a full roll of aluminum roof flashing cut to size with tin snips.
Each end has a disk, it seems hardware stores don't carry the 6-12" aluminum oxide saw blades anymore, so i used the one i had and the other end has a steel disk i made.
I aluminum taped it together, then riveted it solid and used high temp sealant to hold and seal it together.
The sealant may not be good for long term use, though if it works well, it can be jb welded later.
Questions and comments welcome.
peace love light
Nice build. I am looking forward to your results. Good idea using the sheet metal.
Bill
Hi folks, Hi pirate, thanks for the kind words.
I tested it today, though of course, it needs tweaking.
It ran very true with very little vibration, until :o .
The rotating drum slowly started taking in oil and becoming a bit out of balance, this then caused it to oscillate more back and forth within the aluminum cylinder, causing it to bump into the inner walls of aluminum cylinder.
It requires a bottom bearing and the rotating drum needs to be sealed better.
I have already torn it apart and started making changes, will pick up some more high temp. silicone tomorrow and it should be up and running in a couple of days for more testing.
Like i said, it ran very true and while it was running fairly good, the heat up rate was very good, averaging around 6 degrees F. per minute, though it didn't last long enough for a max. temp. test.
Also, the high temp. red silicone sealant held very well and was solid, i just didn't apply enough in the right places, so it leaked into the drum.
peace love light
Hi folks, to update what i'm doing, the hand made rotating drum needs more attention to making it more round and preventing leaks into the drum.
This can be done, though at the moment, i had a paint can already almost setup, just had to bore hole in other end of paint can.
Used a printed template again and was able to drill accurately enough and the paint can rotor drum runs with little vibration.
Sealed the end that sits in the vegetable oil with high temp. silicone.
Was testing it earlier today and it was performing well.
It climbs to 120 F. from 62 F. at an average of 10 degrees per minute and starts off at 400 watts input, then at around 170 F. drops back to 320 watts input, though i think it had a tad too much oil to begin with.
It climbed from 120 F. to 170 F. in 7 minutes, then i noticed oil leaking from the bottom.
So could not get a max. temp reading, it was losing oil anyway, so new test results need to be taken as far as heat up rate, etc..
It seems the oil is climbing up and out the top screw holes that hold the top plate in place and down in between the laminations of aluminum roof flashing.
So, i made a new top plate and ran a bead of high temp. silicon to seal the oil in properly, acting as a gasket.
The only other place where hot oil might spit out a bit, is the shaft hole in the top plate.
peace love light
Hi folks, an update on the drum heater tests for those reading.
Using 300 watt input average, (motor no load is 140 watts input) it climbed to 210 F. in 1 hour 10 minutes.
It climbed to 170 F. from 65 F. in 30 minutes.
The rpm is somewhere between 1500-1600 rpm, have not calculated pulley ratios exactly yet.
Having trouble getting higher rpm's, as the motor seems to bog down, it is a 300 watt motor.
It would heat up much quicker if i can get the rpm higher.
Which might be possible, i need to jb epoxy weld for more rigidity the shaft at bottom of paint can, as it might be causing undue slight wobble and friction in that area, as it is now held in place using high temp. silicone.
And aside from having to tweak a spot on top plate with a little more silicone, acting as gasket, it is going fairly well.
It's a good thing im making these posts for reference, as i'm not taking notes as i should be.
Though i'm wondering if the further separated disk design is fairly close in performance to this paint can, if one takes into account the lower input draw and the disks are rotating at higher rpm.
comments and questions welcome.
peace love light
Hi folks, here is an update on the paint can design for those interested.
I finished reinforcing the paint can.
Made another 1/8" thick high density plate, for inside at top of can, this jb welded and bolts ran through this and other wood plate.
Also, riveted small metal plate at other end and jb welded in place.
Then seal all potential leak spots with high temp. silicone.
Tested it today and it ran much better, with less vibration and remained stable throughout a full test run.
Unfortunately, the bottom plate is medium density fibreboard and the bearing at the bottom was not sealed in properly.
Hot oil has saturated the wood, caused bulging and seeped out through the bottom screw holes that hold the aluminum cylinder in place.
Soo, now am making new bottom plate and top plate out of 5 ply plywood.
The test yielded much better results up to 210 F., though it lost some oil, so the test stopped at that point.
It reached that 210 F. in 45 minutes at 300 watt average input.
I think the reinforced paint can enabled the flow of oil to be smoother in rotation, if not also faster and yielded a quicker heat up rate.
I also think the new bottom plate will also help speed up heat rate, as the bearing will be set more flush, this way less oil can be used and still maintain similar heat rate and watt input.
Another area of improvement is the aluminum cylinder, its been modified and repaired a few times, so it has alot of silicone inside that is not needed, this causing more disturbance to the flow of oil and less contact with a metal aluminum surface.
So, these results can be improved and the max. temp. i'm sure can be raised also.
Please share your thoughts.
peace love light :)
Question: how many btu's/joules/calories are really needed for a given volume and temperature ?
(without air movement inside/outside, ambient humidity )
heater solutions are for example :
cavitation/friction heater and/or heat pumps or F-IR-emissor/radiator
http://www.iwilltry.org/b/heat-your-home-with-a-dehumidifier/ (http://www.iwilltry.org/b/heat-your-home-with-a-dehumidifier/)
http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/cavitationheaters.htm (http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/cavitationheaters.htm)
Griggs or the Perkins-Pope"kinetic furnace" with a c.o.p. above 1
friction/cavitation heater with c.o.p. >= 5 ?
http://www.top-topeni.eu/en/tkt-perun-system (http://www.top-topeni.eu/en/tkt-perun-system)
http://wabi.tv/2013/07/24/searsmont-man-invents-new-heating-system/ (http://wabi.tv/2013/07/24/searsmont-man-invents-new-heating-system/)
https://www.facebook.com/FOSMANDEVICE (https://www.facebook.com/FOSMANDEVICE)
heat pump example
http://www.fujitsugeneral.co.nz/faq-s#faqnoanchor (http://www.fujitsugeneral.co.nz/faq-s#faqnoanchor)
Why is it recently that a single heat pump can heat or cool very large areas? (http://www.fujitsugeneral.co.nz/faq-s#faqnoanchor)
It takes almost twice as much energy to heat a house from 2 degrees to 20 degrees as from 7 degrees to 20 degrees. So if you want to make sure you are going to get heating in all situations the heat pump needs to be sized correctly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
oilpiggy gave as details :
450 sqft. area , 78° F (~ 25,5 °C)inside and 35-40°F( ~ 3°C) outside ,
warm air delivered 12 hours per day with a 600 W drive
I would estimate +/- calculating with a 150 sqm floor/wall/tect volume surface area and 22,5 °C
temperature amplitude,material U-/K-value(~ R-value) 1,0 with a heat source up to 3500 Watt per hour !
But he,oilpiggy,did not spent 3500 Watt x 24 h ,he wrote about 600 Watt x 12 hours/day
(why only 12 hours ? temperature related or being absent,no heat object ?)
like Foster https://www.facebook.com/FOSMANDEVICE (https://www.facebook.com/FOSMANDEVICE) with his FOSMAN Device , heating 1400 sqft with an -up- to 1,5 hp(~ 1100 W nominal) drive !
" 1800 W ~ 300 W ! " ?
Prof. Dr. habil. H. Matschiner
https://www.infrarotheizung-experten.de/skin/frontend/default/theme417/images/media/studie3.pdf (https://www.infrarotheizung-experten.de/skin/frontend/default/theme417/images/media/studie3.pdf)
So ist beispielsweise bekannt, dass eine 1800 W Heizung mit Glühdrähten und Keramikgrund nicht annähernd die Leistung einer 300 W IR-CNT-Heizung erbringt.
google translated :
For example, announced that a 1800 W heater with glow wires and ceramic base is not nearly renders the performance of a 300 W IR-CNT heating.
" 1800 W ~ 225 W " ! ?
http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=WO&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=9628954&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.1&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en (http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=WO&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=9628954&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.1&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en)
Application Example 1
A room with a capacity of 42 m3 was charged with a conventional heating power 1800 watt (Heizstabheizung) during 4 months at a constant temperature held from 22nd An equally large room was kept in the same period of time with an apparatus according to the power 225 watts at the same temperature.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can some professional give answer :
1. It takes almost twice as much energy to heat a house from 2 degrees to 20 degrees as from 7 degrees to 20 degrees.
How do they calculate to get this statement ?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Friction heater could become
up to 90% less power consuming
through better -pulsed power- geared edrives !
oilpiggies
600 W/450sqft.(~ 42sqm) e-consume down to 60 Watt/450sqft.(~42sqm)
would be a good solution,
or Mr.Fosters
1100W/130 sqm(~1400 sqft.) to 110 W/130 sqm(~ 1400 sqft.)
https://www.facebook.com/FOSMANDEVICE (https://www.facebook.com/FOSMANDEVICE)
The Fosman Device looks to make those high cost oil & propane burning furnace & heaters a thing of the past. The Fosman Device uses a combined 6 cylinders rotating within 6 larger cylinders seperated only by vegetable oil & powered by a 1/2hp to 1.5hp motor depending on the size of the space needing to be heated. Each individual cylinder running on 1/2hp motor can reach in excess of 300 degrees. The Fosman Device can reach temperature in as little as 20 minutes creating more than enough heat for the average 3 bedroom, 2 bath home for much less than anything currently available in the world today. The Fosman Device actually becomes more efficient & uses less & less wattage the hotter the device gets & due to it's patented pending design, the heater retains the heat much, much longer than any other heating system in the world. There is nothing out there currently that can make that claim.
If cost savings doesn't already have you foaming at the mouth, let's look at the safety & efficiency of the Fosman Device. The overall design of the Fosman Device will have the diameter of the average water heater & half the height. There are no fuel lines, no emissions, no leaks, no smell pipes, no exhaust fans & no chimneys needed. The Fosman Device will be able to be placed in just about any position, in any corner, rafter, etc. as long as there is a 110/220 volt plug & the home central duct work can be attached. Imagine the space this little buddy will free up in your current or new home, office or warehouse.
So, let's recap, the Fosman Device will be cheap to operate, eliminates any & all fossil fuels, wood, etc., can be placed just about anywhere, eliminates all kinds of pipes, chimneys, etc. & more than likely, will reduce your fire insurance as an added bonus & applications to heat your water as well.
Technical question to this statement : The Fosman Device uses a combined 6 cylinders rotating within 6 larger cylinders seperated only by vegetable oil & powered by a 1/2hp to 1.5hp motor depending on the size of the space needing to be heated. Each individual cylinder running on 1/2hp motor can reach in excess of 300 degrees.
Each cylinder needs his own motor ? Or will an -up to 1,5 hp- motor serve all the 6 larger cylinder ?
cylinder=tube
http://wabi.tv/2013/07/24/searsmont-man-invents-new-heating-system/ (http://wabi.tv/2013/07/24/searsmont-man-invents-new-heating-system/)
The final product will include 6 tubes and a similar size motor.
Inventor tests new heating device at USM | Mainebiz.biz (http://www.mainebiz.biz/article/20130827/NEWS06/130829948/inventor-tests-new-heating-device-at-usm)www.mainebiz.biz/.../inventor-tests-new- (http://www.mainebiz.biz/.../inventor-tests-new-)heating-de...Diese Seite übersetzen (https://translate.google.pt/translate?hl=de&sl=en&u=http://www.mainebiz.biz/article/20130827/NEWS06/130829948/inventor-tests-new-heating-device-at-usm&prev=search)27.08.2013 - Searsmont investor John Foster's heating cell in a laboratory at the ... to heat a three-bedroom home through the winter for $100-$120 a month.
Which was the KWh-price 2012/2013 in Maine ?
Probably combinating it with point 5. here :
http://www.osmatech.net/page4.html (http://www.osmatech.net/page4.html)
If you have a hot water heater that you believe is OU and
you are feeling your wheaties you can use the following
link to a real world device where you could close the loop.
You would have a radiator type heatsink to room temperature
producing a "cold" water room temperature return stream.
Note that any heat producing thermal energy intermediary OU demo
device is difficult because you will need to offset Carnot inefficiency
to upgrade the thermal energy. This might need to involve a serial
thermal device, if requiured.
Web link for Organic Rankine Cycle Turbine Engine Genset and
specification data:
http://www.infinityturbine.com/
(http://overunity.com/Themes/default/images/post/xx.gif (http://overunity.com/Themes/default/images/post/xx.gif)) Re: Friction heater running in my house (http://overunity.com/13068/friction-heater-running-in-my-house/msg350587/#msg350587) « Reply #115 on: January 11, 2013, 05:13:15 PM » Quote (http://overunity.com/13068/friction-heater-running-in-my-house/105/post/quote/350587/last_msg/470530/)
Quote from: hartiberlin on January 11, 2013, 02:30:30 AM (http://overunity.com/13068/friction-heater-running-in-my-house/msg350542/#msg350542)
860 Watts is a lot of power, if you need to produce this
during wintertime via solarpanels and the sky is overcasts...
John Cletus Williams, GA : it is a kind of magic .... hope.....
2000sqfts (~185sqm) but only 400W ?
http://www.patentauction.com/patent.php?nb=8300 (http://www.patentauction.com/patent.php?nb=8300)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Cletus Williams
Granted 2011 but now free !? http://www.google.com/patents/US8059946 (http://www.google.com/patents/US8059946)
As long as electricity is available using a proper light source, our system is able to produce thermal radiation heat. It will work off a wide range of alternating and direct current voltages. Our apparatus will produce high outputs of BTU's per watt of electricity used. It can be used in both stationary and mobile situations.
Non-(efficiently) functional ?
This is a wonderful Thread! And somehow I completely overlooked it until a day or two ago. No real surprise, I am a dummy's dummy.
My sincerest thanks to Thread Starter oilpiggy and everyone who has made a positive contribution here! There is a great wealth of good information and thought provoking ideas here. And maybe I will have a little more wealth in my pocket if I will get going on building an oilpiggy heater instead of building the bank account wealth of my electric provider!
CANGAS 198
It would by nice to have accurate measurements done and posted. There is no explanation given (or even just a theory) of how/why OU appears.
I must respectfully submit that we did do some measurements and caloric testing of
Oilpiggy's unit several years back, unless there have been dramatic advancements
Since then in his design ?
I would STRONGLY urge you reach out for him prior to investing much time into this.
Comparisons to a purely resistive control showed no real advantage at the time of testing.
Respectfully
Chetkremens@gmail. Com
http://www.monolithic.org/products-interior/heating-and-cooling-systems-for-monolithic-dome-homes (http://www.monolithic.org/products-interior/heating-and-cooling-systems-for-monolithic-dome-homes)
Experience shows that well insulated, conventional homes in the northern United States take approximately ten watts of heat per square foot. So, a 1200-square-foot, well insulated, conventional home takes about 12,000 watts of heat.
Reply #180 related :
oilpiggy: 450 sqft. friction heater drive wattage ?
John Foster: 1400 sqft friction heater drive wattage ?
http://www.monolithic.org/products-interior/heating-and-cooling-systems-for-monolithic-dome-homes (http://www.monolithic.org/products-interior/heating-and-cooling-systems-for-monolithic-dome-homes)
Experience shows that well insulated, conventional homes in the northern United States take approximately ten watts of heat per square foot. So, a 1200-square-foot, well insulated, conventional home takes about 12,000 watts of heat.
1200-square-foot,11700 BTU : 3400 Watt friction motor,fan
https://www.farmshow.com/a_article.php?aid=2938 (https://www.farmshow.com/a_article.php?aid=2938)
1400-square-foot, ? BTU, ? Watt
https://www.facebook.com/FOSMANDEVICE (https://www.facebook.com/FOSMANDEVICE)[/font][/size] The Fosman Device looks to make those high cost oil & propane burning furnace & heaters a thing of the past. The Fosman Device uses a combined 6 cylinders rotating within 6 larger cylinders seperated only by vegetable oil & powered by a 1/2hp to 1.5hp motor depending on the size of the space needing to be heated. Each individual cylinder running on 1/2hp motor can reach in excess of 300 degrees. The Fosman Device can reach temperature in as little as 20 minutes creating more than enough heat for the average 3 bedroom, 2 bath home for much less than anything currently available in the world today. The Fosman Device actually becomes more efficient & uses less & less wattage the hotter the device gets & due to it's patented pending design, the heater retains the heat much, much longer than any other heating system in the world. There is nothing out there currently that can make that claim.[/size]If cost savings doesn't already have you foaming at the mouth, let's look at the safety & efficiency of the Fosman Device. The overall design of the Fosman Device will have the diameter of the average water heater & half the height. There are no fuel lines, no emissions, no leaks, no smell pipes, no exhaust fans & no chimneys needed. The Fosman Device will be able to be placed in just about any position, in any corner, rafter, etc. as long as there is a 110/220 volt plug & the home central duct work can be attached. Imagine the space this little buddy will free up in your current or new home, office or warehouse. So, let's recap, the Fosman Device will be cheap to operate, eliminates any & all fossil fuels, wood, etc., can be placed just about anywhere, eliminates all kinds of pipes, chimneys, etc. & more than likely, will reduce your fire insurance as an added bonus & applications to heat your water as well.
11000 BTU,600 Watt
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=39&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19900213&CC=US&NR=4900898A&KC=A (http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=39&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19900213&CC=US&NR=4900898A&KC=A)
http://www.infraroodpanelen.eu/test3-infrarotheizung_heizungplatte_infrarood_infrared_romer_roemer_haustek_redwell_imowell_thermowell.pdf (http://www.infraroodpanelen.eu/test3-infrarotheizung_heizungplatte_infrarood_infrared_romer_roemer_haustek_redwell_imowell_thermowell.pdf)
"So ist beispielsweise bekannt, dass eine 1800 W Heizung mit Glühdrähten und [/size]Keramikgrund nicht annähernd die Leistung einer 300 W IR-CNT-Heizung erbringt. "
google translated:
"For example, announced that a 1800 W heater with glow wires and ceramic base is not nearly the power of a 300 W IR-CNT heater provides."
http://www.heaterlab.com/best-infrared-heater-reviews-guide/ (http://www.heaterlab.com/best-infrared-heater-reviews-guide/)
Infrared Room HeatersInfrared room heaters work with more heating power and can heat up a whole room of up to 1000 square feet, some can even handle more. For operation they also need to be plugged in into a standard wall outlet. They usually operate at about 1500 watts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt), so you can save some money here as the central heaters usually use over 5000 watts.
These technical numbers
1200-square-foot,11700 BTU : 3400 Wattpeak friction motors consume ( drum- and fan-drive)
https://www.farmshow.com/a_article.php?aid=2938 (https://www.farmshow.com/a_article.php?aid=2938)
are from 1981
so actually,2016,
we can improve the efficiency of the total friction heater system
with better electric motors,variable speed (= "Inverter") and permanent magnets equipped
Average savings today: Cuts electricity use by 33% to 50%
http://www.energyconscious.com/sntech-green-motor-indoor-1-2hp-psc-replacement-motor-gi10750g.html (http://www.energyconscious.com/sntech-green-motor-indoor-1-2hp-psc-replacement-motor-gi10750g.html)
(caution: SNTECH under chapter 11)
Keppe ?
http://www.whitepages.com/name/Charles-Edmund-Souders/Rochester-MI (http://www.whitepages.com/name/Charles-Edmund-Souders/Rochester-MI)
alive for questioning ?
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=US&NR=2013011125A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20130110&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=US&NR=2013011125A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20130110&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP)
The "Rolling Lumens Heater" consists of an 8″×8″×4″ electrical junction box with six lampholders mounted on the exterior of the box. A 100 watt light bulb is placed in each of the lampholders. A 120 volt ac line supplies voltage to the interior of the junction box where each of the lampholders is connected in parallel to the line. The junction box is installed in the cold air return of a forced air furnace or in an enclosure through which hot water pipes travel in a hot water heating system. When the lamps are illuminated, the air driven by an 8 inch fan through the cold air return, or enclosure, is heated to a temperature of 70 degrees Fahrenheit. The heated air is then pushed through the heating system to the registers and out into the rooms where the temperature remains constant at 70 degrees. The cost of operating this system is approximately $30.00 per month for an average size home. No petroleum or fossil fuels are burned in this process with no resultant environmental pollution and inherent health hazards.
--------------------------------------------------------------
forced air or hydronic system
600 lamp Watt + fan consume for an averaged size home
average size home : http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/how-big-is-a-house (http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/how-big-is-a-house)
average size tiny house ::)
drum pipe heater
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19850416&CC=US&NR=4511787A&KC=A (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19850416&CC=US&NR=4511787A&KC=A)
+ 2016 technical standart of power saving heat elements < 450 Wp electric consume
for the 450 sft. area and 660 Wp heater example
f.e. http://www.average.com.ua/ (http://www.average.com.ua/) heat element example 1900Win/3000Wout
http://canlaser.com/en/Hhm.aspx (http://canlaser.com/en/Hhm.aspx)
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as cheaper alternative to #187
http://www.infraroodpanelen.eu/test3-infrarotheizung_heizungplatte_infrarood_infrared_romer_roemer_haustek_redwell_imowell_thermowell.pdf (http://www.infraroodpanelen.eu/test3-infrarotheizung_heizungplatte_infrarood_infrared_romer_roemer_haustek_redwell_imowell_thermowell.pdf)
"So ist beispielsweise bekannt, dass eine 1800 W Heizung mit Glühdrähten und [/size]Keramikgrund nicht annähernd die Leistung einer 300 W IR-CNT-Heizung erbringt. "
google translated:
"For example, announced that a 1800 W heater with glow wires and ceramic base is not nearly the power of a 300 W IR-CNT heater provides."
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Far-Infra-Red heater with this heat effect are sold here in Europe for 359 Euros ea.
with 400 W nominal heat power.
and clearly some,as I,are really interested in this power saving distribution system:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/komoto-fans-heat-2000sf-for-4-cents-per-hour#/ (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/komoto-fans-heat-2000sf-for-4-cents-per-hour#/)
use a patent pending electric distribution system to power each fan blade one at a time.
Universal use ability ? Five rooms,five heaters and one (power saving) electric distribution system ?
Pulse heater
If not KOMOTO :'( ,
okay ;) https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2016070292 (https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2016070292)
Could this be a planar transformer ?
https://www.powerguru.org/planar-transformers-are-essential-for-truly-efficient-electrichybrid-vehicles/ (https://www.powerguru.org/planar-transformers-are-essential-for-truly-efficient-electrichybrid-vehicles/) and truly for efficient heating ,too ::)
https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.average.com.ua%2F&edit-text= (https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.average.com.ua%2F&edit-text=)
are as expensive like the Far Infrared heat panels in the western hemisphere : financial overprized !
( 40 cents as electricity KWh price in their calculation:
>:( who pays 40 cents/KWh for electricity ?
:-[ okay,expensive solar cell energy consumer ! ??? Or do they UAH-cents meaning ?)
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Economical calculated their "Brownie" boiler( entering "Products") : pools,warm-water,hydronic
1. Reducing energy consumption by 3-4 times compared to existing similar products in the market of Ukraine. 2. It has no analogues in the world energy consumption.
3. Relatively low price.
4. Easy installation.
5. Lightweight and compact, they can be hung on the wall as a consequence - saving place.
6. Security (no open flame).
7. boilers are easy to operate.
8. Does not require a separate room (boiler).
9. Do not require a chimney installation.
10. Do not require special maintenance.
11. silently.
12. Eco-friendly, no harmful emissions and foreign odors.
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???
The main characteristics of energy-efficient electric boilers "Brownie":
2 KW price 4000 UAH = Ukrainische Hrywnja
Comparative technical and economic characteristics use in water heating systems, boilers known firms and "Brownie" boiler
Rated power KW 2 price estimation 2000 UAH
for heating area from 60 up to 100 sqm and up to 185 room qbm volume .
:o Their estimated price will be in the 2000-4000 UAH range :D
http://de.exchange-rates.org/converter/UAH/USD/4000 (http://de.exchange-rates.org/converter/UAH/USD/4000)
1 US$ ~ 25 UAH actually
In their "new pricelist" the "Brownie" boiler are offered for 2000-4000, but on top: US$
John Foster FOSMAN https://www.facebook.com/FOSMANDEVICE
Friction heater description :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=US&NR=9389004B1&KC=B1&FT=D (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=US&NR=9389004B1&KC=B1&FT=D)