Hi All,
enclosed is a video Dr. Linnard Griffin did send me about his new
hydrogen on demand unit.
He writes:
Here is the first controllable chemical reaction producing hydrogen on demand. There is no power input, the system is self powered.
Linnard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Hartmann" <harti@harti.com>
To: "Dr. Linnard Griffin" <picker@tstar.net>
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: free for all
> Dear Linnard, please can you clarify what we are seeing
> in this video ?
> I would still need to convert it to a smaller file format.
> Is it related to your patent with the 3 different colloidal metals in
water ?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Regards, Stefan.
Hi Stefan,
What you are seeing is a controllable chemical reaction. It is the
combination of 5 metals is a catalyzed reaction.
You see me turning on and off a switch mounted on the top of the beaker.
When the switch is off there is no hydrogen production, when it is turned on
the hydrogen starts to flow.
The application is very broad and this is the first controllable chemical
reaction. Very neat stuff.
Linnard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Hartmann" <hartiberlin@gmx.de>
To: "Dr. Linnard Griffin" <picker@tstar.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: free for all
> Thanks for the explanation.
> With "free for all" do you mean,
> you will soon publish the principle behind it ?
> Or what is your current goal to use this technology ?
>
> Are you looking to patent this again or will
> you spread the "know-how" like public domain
> or GPL license like ?
>
> Many thanks.
> Yes, it looks impressive, if no electricity is needed and all
> the metals are not used up.
> Thanks.
>
> Regards, Stefan.
I just use the free for all subject so you will know it is me. The need to
supply hydrogen ( on demand) for the micro fuel cell is great. This new
technology meets this need. I have patents filled and they should be
published in a year or so.
Linnard
Dear Mr. Linnard,
I am Mihai Petrescu from Switzerland, owner of few (three) patents (pending demand) by "Swiss Federal Institute for Intellectual Properties" in Bern, Switzerland, in very different fields: documents' security and bio-technology. Last but not least, I am very interest now in all connected domaines of the Hydrogen Economy. As so many people in the last time, I believe that the hydrogen have to assure the needed energy source/next energy to the human civilization and I will be greatfull if you'll find the time to show me your invention. It's enormous!
Looking forward to your kind replay,
Best regards,
Mihai Petrescu
www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=11039
Dr.Linnard Griffin,CEO of AirGen
S
dL
Did they invent something simular ?
http://www.cleanwatts.com/video/video.asp
Or did they license from AirGen ?
http://www.newscientisttech.com/channel/tech/mg19125621.200.html
G.Pese
Here is the full article free to read:
http://www.cleanenergypartnership.org/news/article_detail.cfm?id=218
but Linnard?s technology is much better, cause you only
have to refuel water ! No Boronoxid to process..
and filling up just water is cheaper than buying additional boron !
Here is Linard?s new patent !
It probably the key to cheap unlimited hydrogen production.
I have to study it now myself.
Many thanks to Linnard.
Stefan,
Thank you for making the patent available for download here on the forum.
I just looked the patent over and this is fantastic! This is the answer to your overunity!
Dr Linnard's patent has a series of experiments with excellent detail, and I love the fact that it is utilizing chemical reactions with no need of outside power input. I felt like I was reading the true beginning of the Hydrogen Economy. Using colloidal metals and catalysts he describes reactions that have the potential to produce abundant hydrogen with common metals. Reactions that theoretically regenerate all components except water (which is consumed in the reaction). As he describes, the same result as hydrolysis without the power input.
Let us all hope and pray this man will not be bought out, or eliminated. That this technology will be widely used and spread like wildfire. Hydrogen production that can be turned on and off with the flick of a switch. This should be front page news. This could be the answer for so many of mankind's problems. Energy, pollution, starvation, space travel, etc.
I read it here today, and I tell you it came to my mind. It would figure that Almighty God would make the most abundant compound on the planet (water) as a potential energy source available for us all. All we have to do is share it.
That will be the hard part.
Here is the latest video from Linnard attached to this message,
but he did not state much,
what we really see here.
He just wrote:
Hi Stefan,
Thought you would like to see this one. 500 ml per min. out of a 80 ml reactor.
Linnard
http://www.freie-energie.net/index/verbrennungs_maschinen/SPLIT-CYCLE%20ENGINE/SPLIT-CYCLE%20ENGINE.htm
And more....
gasoline added with browngas (HHO)
http://www.autogas-india.com/fuelcellm.html
For your attention:
Best Links from my Collection
Pese
Whooooohoooooooooooooo! :D
Hydrogen economy here we come!!!
Yes!!!!!!!!!!!
I have run an add on Hydrogen unit on my car for over 1000 miles and really, I feel that there is a lot of room for improvement on the add on Hydrogen units. I did not see the increase in mileage nor did I see any increase in power. If anything the motor may run a little cleaner and a little smoother. When they come out with a Hydrogen unit that will make it's own Hydrogen without adding chemicals to it, then maybe it will work better.
Concerns of running too much Hydrogen in a motor has come up with concern of harming the internal components of a motor. I am all for Hydrogen and I will be waiting for a better system to come out, but buyer be ware of some of the units that are on the market right now as you may end up like me and just waste some money and really get nothing in return.
Trump
@all (google translation)
increase OF power with acetone moth balls or brown gas etc. (?) Please you tremble attention that modern engines by one are control electronics-defeated the same quantity fuel to always bulge out. Only ?tunig? companies and manufacturers can change the ?chips? so that you a racing car me more power gotten or Gosoline loses to use less without at achievement too! (BMW is to have these chips for own development and special customers. That is the along-earned and on a gergelte co-operation, not however in the interest of powers by this industry, is dependent. Automobile industry, oil industry and the State of, that of all steering draws and thus again social work (!?) carries out. This electronic control prevents changes of Hobbisten to lower consumption. The next problem is the Katalisator, this regulated from control electronics! This is so adjusted the fact that a firm high temperature is present that is called: 10% Gasoline is additionally used, thus these (as unburned fuel) platinum filter in the catalyst) to heat can burn over ?useless " and produce other harmful gases such as phosgene and hydrogen sulfide gases and nano-platinum. This is useful for ground electrode warming and nano-platinum for the breathing air!! (It penetrates through the alveoli into the body. Consider simply that the temperature in the catalyst are produced, no ?free Energy? are, which one could again perhaps use it are simply unburned exhaust gases, which must be produced by additionally used gasoline. To its regulation is control electronics in: ? MUST be ?. Thus is amend consumption NOT possible. Result: Engines of old design can be improved changes or with additives. Modern engines only to reprogram the original controlling chips. improve with usual fuel as also with additives to the fuel.
I use the Google translation those am dreadful. Who has a better translator, can the German text also use.
pese
---------
@all increase of power with aceton mottenkugeln oder brown-gas etc. (?) Bitte beben Sie Beachtung dass moderne Motoren durch eine Steuerelektronikbezwungen sind IMMER die gleiche Menge Kraftstoff zu verbauchen. Nur "tunig" Firmen und Hersteller k?nnen die "Chips" so ver?ndern dass Sie einen Rennwagen mir mehr Power bekommen oder Gosoline weniger verbrauchen ohne an Leistung zu verliere ! (BMW soll diese Chips f?r eigene Entwicklung und besondere Kunden haben. Das ist aber nicht im Interesse der M?chte die von dieser Industrie mitverdienen und auf eine gergelte Zusammenarbeit angewiesen sind. Autoindustrie , ?l Industrie und der Staat , der von allem Steuern zieht und damit wieder Sozialarbeit (!?) leistet. Diese elektronische Steuerung verhindert ?nderungen von Hobbisten , den Verbrauch zu senken. Das n?chste Problem ist der Katalisator , dieser wird geregelt von der Steuerelektronik ! Diese ist so eingestellt dass eine feste hohe Temperatur vorhanden ist , dass heisst: 10% Gasoline wird zus?tzlich verbraucht , damit dieser ( als unverbrannter Kraftstoff ) das Platin Sieb im Katalysator) aufheizen kann um "nutzlos"zu verbrennen und andere sch?dliche Gase wie Phosgen und Schwefelwasserstoff-Gase und Nano-Platin zu erzeugen.. Dies ist n?tzlich f?r Erderw?rmung und Nano-Platin f?r die Atemluft !! (Es dringt durch die Lungenbl?schen in den K?rper. Bedenken Sie einfach dass die Temperatur die im Katalysator erzeugt werden , keine "free Energy" sind , die man wieder vielleicht nutzen k?nnte, es sind einfach unverbrannte Auspuff-Gase , die durch zus?tzlich verbrauchtes Benzin erzeugt werden m?ssen. Zu dessen Regelung ist die Steuer-elektronik ein : " MUSS sein ". Damit ist ein ab?ndern des Verbrauches NICHT m?glich. Fazit: Motoren alter Bauart lassen sich umbauen oder mit Zus?tzen verbessern. Moderne Motoren nur am umprogrammieren der Original-Steuer-Chips. verbessern bei ?blichem Treibstoff wie auch bei Zus?tzen zum Treibstoff.
Ich verwende die Google Translation die f?rchterlich ist . Wer einen besseren Translator hat , kann den deutschen Text auch verwenden.
pese
Quote from: Trump on November 09, 2006, 11:25:36 PM
I have run an add on Hydrogen unit on my car for over 1000 miles and really, I feel that there is a lot of room for improvement on the add on Hydrogen units. I did not see the increase in mileage nor did I see any increase in power. If anything the motor may run a little cleaner and a little smoother. When they come out with a Hydrogen unit that will make it's own Hydrogen without adding chemicals to it, then maybe it will work better.
Concerns of running too much Hydrogen in a motor has come up with concern of harming the internal components of a motor. I am all for Hydrogen and I will be waiting for a better system to come out, but buyer be ware of some of the units that are on the market right now as you may end up like me and just waste some money and really get nothing in return.
Trump
Trump,
which unit did you use ?
Maybe you did not install it correctly ?
In what car did you test it ?
Thanks.
I am reading the patent now, and by the sounds of it, the device
will still require "fuel" just not in the form of electricity. We must
research how the chemical catalyst is produced to really know if
this is overunity. I hope we get some more technical data soon!
Hi Everyone,
Just to let you know, I am attempting to replicate one of the experiments outlined in Linnard's patent. This is experiment #13. After looking over the patent, this one seemed the safest and easiest to do.
I have a 5% NaOH solution here at work that I am now reducing by evaporation to a 10% concentration as outlined in the patent. I purchased 50ppm colloidal silver and 350ppm colloidal magnesium from the health food store. I also obtained a tungsten carbide electrode from a welding supply near me, and I plan on using a galvanized nail for the zinc electrode. I also have the copper wire for the connection. I am going to try to replicate the experiment exactly (concentrations of colloidal suspensions).
It may be a day or so before any initial results are obtained. I will let you know how it goes. Please be patient with me, I am busy here at work and I want to perform the experiment in one of our vent hoods for safety.
Just to let you know, I preferred the chemistry aspect of this forum, and Linnard's apparatus looked right in line with my interest.
I'll keep you all posted, but please be patient. Thanks!!!
We all wait in anticipation of your results!
GOOD LUCK! ;)
Hello everyone,
Well, I have to admit, I honestly did not expect it to work, but my experiment is a success. I placed the electrodes into the solution and no gas was produced until I connected the wires between the electrodes. Just like the patent described, the evolution of gas began.
I have buddies here at work who were very interested, and now we are convinced.
I will need to collect the gas to see if it is flammable, but that won't be for a few days.
Just wanted to let everyone know. I duplicated experiment #13 of Linnard's patent.
Free hydrogen is now a reality in my lifetime. Man am I blown away.
Talk to you all later.
;D :o :D ;D
Hello,
please can someone tell me what is this Tungsten Carbide - Electrode ( german translation = Wolfram-Pl?ttchen/Carbid ?? )
Regards
Kator
Quote from: Kator01 on November 10, 2006, 05:07:42 PM
Hello,
please can someone tell me what is this Tungsten Carbide - Electrode ( german translation = Wolfram-Pl?ttchen/Carbid ?? )
Regards
Kator
Molecularly it is:
W < 94%, C < 6.18%, Fe < 0.04%, Mo < 0.010%, Al < 0.001%
I hope that helped...
Hi everyone,
Just as a follow up, I got the experiment going 45 minutes before I left work (I couldn't wait any longer). I disconnected the wires just to see what would happen and the evolution of the gas stopped. I reconnected the wires and it began again.
I left the experiment running in the vent hood at work and the evolution of the gas was a steady slow rate. It looked safe to leave running overnight. I work tommorrow so I will see how much water is left in the beaker. That will be about 14 hours from now. Starting volume was 80 ml total solution.
I believe the rate is slow because the tungsten carbide electrode I used was the smallest available (1/16") and this reduces the surface area available for electrolysis. I will try multiple tungsten electrodes tommorrow to see if I can jack the rate of gas evolution.
I will see if I can get my camara to work tommorrow. Try and figure a way to post pics on the net. (I've never done it before.) Bear with me because I'm not exactly internet experienced.
I will have to alter the apparatus also so that I can collect the gas and test flammability. This may take a while too. I want to leave it at work for safety reasons right now. The caustic solution can be hazardous.
This has me very excited.
Stephan,
permanent problems with videos. Last avi-video needs a new RealPlaye-Software.
Try to download this new software but the RealPlayer-programm could not find any new
sortware.
These different standards are really a pity. Can we agree on a standard ( mpeg or similar ) which
can be viewed without any problems ??
Kator01
Dingus
thank you very much. That really helped.
It is a common tungsten-rod used or welding. There are other Tunsten-Rod-Types which have a small percentage of thorium mixed in.
One can repeat this experiment with this kind of electrode. Radioactivity might enhance the electrolysis-process.
Regards
Kator01
Quote from: ResinRat2 on November 10, 2006, 05:21:12 PM
This has me very excited.
You can say that again!!! ;D ;D ;D
Thank god for inventors who share! If this technology
is half as cheap and easy as it sounds, we are well on
our way to powering the world with water.
Please can you also examine all the submerged metals and
report the level of reduxion that occures and on what materials.
~Dingus
Thanks to all those now working on this replication...
It feels like everyday we get a little closer to independence.
Hi ResinRat2,
Correct me if I am wrong, but this is not really an over-unity device in that eventually it will stop working.
According to one article I read, boron is consumed and boron oxide is the residue.
They then need to convert the boron oxide back into boron using electricity.
I think GardnerWatts (Chris Eccles) were working on a process that produced vast amounts of hydrogen, but chewed up the steel electrodes.
Regards
Rob
Kingrs,
Please read Linnard's patent and experiment#13.
According to the patent, all components involved in this reaction will be regenerated except water, which is consumed by evolving into hydrogen and oxygen gases.
There is no boron in this reaction mixture. Unless I missed something and somebody would correct me. I am only going by what Dr. Linnard wrote. This experiment requires no electrical input of energy, and it is a catalyst driven reaction. Catalysts are not consumed in this reaction. The five metals involved drive the reaction to completion.
This technology is new to me as well. I only performed the old-style electrolysis in grade-school science class. I never did again in my life until today.
I will begin to re-educate myself on the basics of electrolysis, and what it entails. I never needed it before. I am the first to admit I am woefully lacking in the basics of this reaction. I only followed his (Linnard's) outlined procedure.
To sum things up, no energy input, all components should be regenerated (except water) , a gas is being produced.That's all I know at this point.
I can fully understand how this is new ground
for you ResinRat, its new ground for all of us.
-BUT-
Please pay careful attention to the electrodes and
their weights and textures so we can judge if indeed
all components except H2O are indeed regenerated.
I would suggest consistant logging of component
and solution weights and volumes.
Thank you greatly for your time and effort in this field.
~Dingus
Dingus,
I will keep track of appearance, etc. and let you know what I see.
In normal electrolysis I understand that unless platinum electrodes are used that the oxygen electrode oxidizes. Since only one electrode is giving off gas, then this is probably happening.
I admit, forcefully, that I am woefully lacking in knowledge of this area. Electrochemistry is not my cup of tea. So more experienced scientists may give their information on what is happening.
I only ran the experiment, and I am getting gas evolution. What is really happening needs to be investigated.
Thanks for having patience with me. I am always open to correction.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on November 10, 2006, 07:55:13 PM
In normal electrolysis I understand that unless platinum electrodes are used that the oxygen electrode oxidizes. Since only one electrode is giving off gas, then this is probably happening.
Actually one metal breaks down and one metal is oxidized in a galvanic reaction, but in electrolysis both anode and cathode are similar metals therefor redux does not occur, So it would appear that the device is acting as a battery that electrolyzes its own electrolyte.
I am quite curious to hear how your overnight test concludes.
While I realize you are not familiar with galvanic/voltaic/electrolytic reactions, you are doing exactly what any of us would do with the cell... Testing it thuroughly! I only advise you to track the suggested data to make the testing process shorter. If you can continue to break down water for a extended period of time without significant losses in the metals we may be in business, but I still have a feeling the colloidal solutions and NaOH will have to be replaced which would be energy input.
Thank you again for your contributions and expertise,
~Dingus
Hi everyone,
Just an update on the duplication of Linnard Patent Experiment #13. The experiment has been going on for 14 hours now.
Came in to work this morning and the Tungsten-Carbide electrode was still producing gas at the same slow rate. It looks like the solution level dropped about 4-5ml (approx) and the solution has developed a very slight brownish tinge. This is probably not due to the electrolysis because the unused solution that I have stored in a jar right next to the beaker has the same very slight brownish color.
I will be taking pictures today and get them posted as soon as I can. I don't have my digital camera available so I will be using a regular one. Once the pictures are developed for me I'll post them.
Let me describe the apparatus. It consists of a 100ml beaker covered by a plastic lid from a one quart container. This covers the top of the beaker, but allows the gas to escape through the pour lip. The lid also holds the electrodes that are pierced through the lid. So we have the solution in the beaker (80ml start volume), a dead space where gas can collect and escape through the pour lip, the electrodes (one tungsten-carbide, one galvanized nail (zinc)) held in place by the plastic lid. Above the lid a copper wire is connected to each eletrode. When the wires are touched together the production of gas begins. The solution in the beaker consists of 100ml of 10% NaOH(aq) into which was added 8ml of 50ppm colloidal silver and 0.6ml of a 350ppm colloidal magnesium. This gives the same concentrations that were described in experiment #13 of Linnard's patent.
The total volume added to the beaker brought the starting level at 80ml.
A few observations:
The galvanized nail that I am using for the zinc electrode has not changed color below the immersion line but above the immersion line (in the dead space where the gas can collect) the electrode has darkened. Interestingly, above the lid (outside the dead space) the electrode has not changed color.
The Tungsten-Carbide electrode, below the immersion line,has darkened slightly but above the immersion line (the dead space) and outside the lid the color has not changed.
The rate of gas production is not dramatic, but it is slow and steady. I will try adding other tungsten-carbide electrodes to see if I can get the rate of gas production increased today.
Thanks for your interest. I will be adding results here as time progresses.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on November 10, 2006, 04:07:56 PM
Hello everyone,
Well, I have to admit, I honestly did not expect it to work, but my experiment is a success. I placed the electrodes into the solution and no gas was produced until I connected the wires between the electrodes. Just like the patent described, the evolution of gas began.
I have buddies here at work who were very interested, and now we are convinced.
I will need to collect the gas to see if it is flammable, but that won't be for a few days.
Just wanted to let everyone know. I duplicated experiment #13 of Linnard's patent.
Free hydrogen is now a reality in my lifetime. Man am I blown away.
Talk to you all later.
;D :o :D ;D
BEWARE OF SEEING IF IT IS FLAMMABLE.
If what is coming off is H2, no problems. If it is a stochiometric mixture of H2 and O2, which is the result of various new technology electrolysis experiments, then you may get your equipment BLOWN TO BITS. You could try bubbling the gas through soapy water, and chase after the bubbles with a lighted cigarette lighter. If it is H2, then you will get a wispy blue flame. If it is H2+O2, you will get a sharp crack.
People on this thread more learned than I should be able to predict with certainty which gas must come off. But don't make a mistake.
Paul.
Hi ResinRat,
many thanks for your sucessful experiment.
A I don?t yet have Tungstencarbid, I wonder, if it also works with just Tungsten electrodes, normally used for welding ?
All the other materials I already have and when I have some free time, I will also try it.. By the way, could the colloidal magnesium also substituted by colloidal aluminium and the colloidal silver be substitute
by colloidal lead ?
This would be cheaper to produce and I have a colloidal silver generator device. By the way, you can just use 3 * 9 Volts batteries in series to put onto two silver rods or two magnesium rods to get colloidal metal in a 80 degrees celsius heated destilled water baker. So 27 Volts DC half an hour applied to two metall rods in hot destilled water will produce colloidal metal in destilled water. Maybe some other guys could please also try it. Yes and be cautious, when you try to ignite it. When it is oxyhydrogen, the baker will explode ! Use a hose into a bubbler with soap water and extract a few bubbles and ignite them outdoors and see, if they explode or just burn only...
Where can we get Tungsten Carbid cheaply from ? Will also Tungsten carbid powder work put next to a Tungsten Carbid rod ? Thanks.
Stefan,
According to Linnard's patent, any metal can be used in colloidal form for this reaction. The rate of the reaction will depend on the reactivity of the metal, Silver being one of the fastest. I didn't even consider lead because I am chicken (lol). I just wanted to duplicate Linnard's work.
As far as using tungsten pure welding rods, I believe that is what I am using. The label on the package of the rods says it is pure tungsten, and I purchased them at a welding supply store.
Also, don't worry guys. I'll be very careful and try not to blow myself up. That's why the experiment is running in the vent hood. No flames will go near it for now.
By the way, it's still running. Same look, same rate (estimated by appearance), and I guess I'll leave it running through until Monday.
Thanks for the interest.
Hi ResinRat, many thanks for confirming, that you just use pure tungsten and not tungstencarbid. Then I can try it with my materials over here. Maybe you can also try it with different colloidal metals, as magnesium is pretty expensive compared to aluminium and also silver compared to lead, so if it will also work with cheaper metals that would be nice. It seems due to this Re-Dox reduction it works like a shortcut battery that self-electrolyzes its own elektrolyte and because this Redox chain reaction the electrolyte is always regenerated and thus only water is consumed. I wonder if we could also use the 0.3Volts to light a minilamp or drive via a Dc to Dc converter also other loads with it ? ResinRat could you please measure the DC current between the electrodes when you shortcircuit the wires ? How much DC power can we get out there ? With bigger cells we could probably also get higher amperages or put several cells in series and get higher voltages. So this would also be a free electrical energy genertor additionally !
P.S. if we could find any other working electrode materials, which have a higher difference voltage, we could just design a battery, that just needs water alone as a fuel !
I think the Australian water bike inventor Steven Ryan has a simular system, as he also has an external shortcut of the electrodes and he just stores his generated oxyhydrogen inside his water itsself !
Hello all,
I am observing this discussion here and concerning Argentum Colloidale you should not forget that it is very sensible to light. I have my doubts that the silver-particles are there forever at work. The Nano-particles loose their electric charge in time, bake together thus forming bigger clusters and sink to the ground.
Any colloidale Silver solution ( I constructed a special generator for this and produce Ag-Coloidale since 3 years now ), will get a brownish colour if it is used up. It especially reacts to sulphur or it becomes AgO ( Silveroxid) .
But anyway since I am not a chemisist I will leave this question up to a more qualified person.
Next steps could be :
- Apply a small extra-voltage to the system, maybe 0.5 Volt or so.
- Use a tungsten-rod with Thorium - Radioactivity will accellerate the process
Thorium-Tungsten-rods ( red mark )
http://www.furtmayr.de/wolfram/index.html (http://www.furtmayr.de/wolfram/index.html)
Kator
Hi Kator, yes you might be right with the silver, so it might better to use colloidal lead instead of the silver although it is pretty toxid, so don?t drink it or let it pour over your skin...
or maybe do the experiment in darkness, although Linnard mentioned, that with light input it worked better and also in higher temperature...hmmm
Hmm, if we could get this to work with graphite and magnesium electrodes without these being consumed, we could get a voltage of about 1.5 to 1.8 Volts per cell ! Then we only have to find the right colloidal metals to support this and don?t consume the magnesium electrode.
This would then be the optimal green battery-fuelcell just needing water as the fuel and as the byproduct you will also get free oxyhydrogen for heating purposes or running a generator.
Stefan,
Sorry, my colleague and I are the last ones here today, and we will be leaving work very shortly. We do not have a meter in this lab to measure the DC current, and everyone else has gone home until Monday. That will have to wait until then.
I am very happy for all your brainstorming ideas. This is fantastic! I hope so much innovation can come from Linnard's work. I truly believe we are on the verge of the Hydrogen economy. Thanks to the internet they can no longer keep the information bottled up. Batteries that run on water, cars that run on free hydrogen, unlimited fuel for powering the world.
Come on everyone, let the information flow! Let's invent or brains out!!!
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Hello,
here is another important info about the lanthanoide Cer : Please read carefully, it reacts with water to Cer-Hydroxid and pure H-Gas.
It is all in German, unortunately for our english friends here, but it is the only webside which gives this detailed info
about Cer producing H-Gas.
Now the reason why I put this info here is because I discovered that there exists a tungsten-cer-welding-rod.
Look here the different kind of welding-rods on another page of www.furtmayr.de ( see my my last post.)
There is a lot to experiment on :
http://www.furtmayr.de/wolfram/details.html#rot (http://www.furtmayr.de/wolfram/details.html#rot)
If there is a person here who is well versed in chemistry : How can one convert Cer-Hydroxide back to Cer and
Water ?
In Switzerland post-busses had a Cer-Brick as a catalyst for producing H-Gas. Way back in the 60 ties they used only this H-Gas fuel and abandoned it in the 70 ties.
Kator
Hi ResinRat2,
Be very careful with your h2o gas, even a poping a small bubble can make a bang like a mains short circuit.
I once shorted a hacksaw blade across the terminals of a car battery seconds after taking it off charge, the result was an explosion that nearly blinded me from flying plastic.
I got hit in the cheek by a piece of flying plastic, sprayed with sulfuric acid and the battery had all its plastic blown off half way down the lead plates, lucky escape or what.
I am guessing that your cell is working like a battery and short circuiting it is causing the gas production.
It would be interesting to see what current is flowing, then you can calculate its amp hour capacity when it goes flat, thats if it ever does. So in theory if you increase the plate area the gas production should go up but so will the current, and the cell will discharge in less time.
Sounds very interesting, and if it keeps going for several days or even weeks, you may just be on to something.
Regards
Rob
Hi Rob,
I will take everyone's warnings very seriously. In all honesty, I never really knew that HHO gas was truely that explosive until I heard it on the net today. I have the reaction going in the vent hood at work, and it is going at a slow rate. Why would anyone want to play with this stuff at home? I knew hydrogen was explosive, but HHO in the right ratios is even worse.
I am having second thoughts on letting it run past Monday. Just for safety sake, I think I am going to end it on Monday morning. I will give a final observation, a weight of losses, and anything else I see as relevant. I am worried now if the power goes out and the gas builds up to any appreciable amount. Everything we have in our lab is anti-spark, and everything is grounded, but I still don't want to come to work and find any surprises. This will give a total observation time of approximately 63 hours.
With all the guys working on this hydrolysis technology, I am surprised I have not heard of injuries or deaths caused by such research. Maybe it's not as explosive as I think.
Hey! Somebody give me an MSDS on HHO gas!
Can anybody give me a few interesting experiences on their working with HHO gas or electrolysis research? Maybe start a new thread like -- "My HHO gas detonated, and I lived to tell you this story." (LOL).
Maybe all your warnings have made me somewhat paranoid now. I will tell you that in my line of work I deal with explosive and toxic solvents, monomers, isocyanates, catalysts, and free-radical initiators. I wear all the fancy safety equipment: full-face respirator, gloves, safety shoes. We have vent hoods and everything is grounded. Safety is our number one goal, and I've been doing research this way for the last 27 years of my life. This now has me concerned.
This is a good thing though. It should get other people concerned as well.
I appreciate everyone's input. This is an excellent forum and I am glad I am part of it.
Thanks for your concern and interest.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on November 10, 2006, 05:21:12 PM
Hi everyone,
Just as a follow up, I got the experiment going 45 minutes before I left work (I couldn't wait any longer). I disconnected the wires just to see what would happen and the evolution of the gas stopped. I reconnected the wires and it began again.
I left the experiment running in the vent hood at work and the evolution of the gas was a steady slow rate. It looked safe to leave running overnight. I work tommorrow so I will see how much water is left in the beaker. That will be about 14 hours from now. Starting volume was 80 ml total solution.
I believe the rate is slow because the tungsten carbide electrode I used was the smallest available (1/16") and this reduces the surface area available for electrolysis. I will try multiple tungsten electrodes tommorrow to see if I can jack the rate of gas evolution.
I will see if I can get my camara to work tommorrow. Try and figure a way to post pics on the net. (I've never done it before.) Bear with me because I'm not exactly internet experienced.
I will have to alter the apparatus also so that I can collect the gas and test flammability. This may take a while too. I want to leave it at work for safety reasons right now. The caustic solution can be hazardous.
This has me very excited.
Hi ResinRat2,
Nice work in both setting up the experiment to confirm the patent and reporting back results.
Before you dismantle everything, is it possible at your location to test for consumption of reactants in the beaker? I?d assume you may have access to a nice spectrum of analytical lab equipment there. Measuring concentration of solubles after, normalize for the original amount of solvent -water in this case- weight of rods before and after, any plating occurring etc. Plating may not be too bad, as it can be reversed depending on how much is there. If there isn?t any it would be even better. An initial skin oxidation (rods) and/or anodization if non progressive is acceptable maybe even required.
What I?m getting at, it will be great to find out that the rods and all other metals and other compounds used inside the beaker remain unconsumed and unaltered during the Oxygen-Hydrogen generation.
Basically if the only component of the experiment that got consumed is water, it would be an excellent finding.
The rest were true catalysts, non consumed.Not an OU device by any means, BUT a system that produces clean energy (some electricity and ofc Oxygen and hydrogen) and the only used resource is water and that would be excellent.
Also this might be of interest:
Experiments with Chemaloy as a catalysts to free Hydrogen from plain water? It maybe going under another name these days, not sure 100% but I recalled the following while reading this thread:
?CHEMALLOY - A New Alloy for the Science Student
Originally conceived as a soldering alloy, this patented substance has anti-friction properties, will aerate soil, improves seed germination, stimulates pant growth, will generate electricity, and ????
By Samuel Freedman
What relation there can be between soldering aluminum and promoting the growth of huckleberries is hard to see --- yet in the broadest view, scientists say, all things are in some way interrelated. Chemalloy, with its strangely diverse properties seems to support this view.
Put a Chemalloy rod in plain water (Fig. 1) and you have a battery of .55 volt potential that will last as long as the rod is kept wet, generating enough power to operate a voltmeter, milliameter or oscilloscope. In different liquids, voltage varies from almost zero for petroleum to 1.1 for certain types of chili sauce.
As a bearing material, Chemalloy in a solid dry state withstands friction without coolant or lubricant.
Chemalloy powderized to about 1,000,000 particles per pound exhibits the same elecritical properties (Fig. 2) as the solid rod. Here it generates slightly more than .5 volt, and in addition decomposes the water, liberating hydrogen.
This process is further examined in Fig 3. First fill three graduated cylinders with water, one cold, the second warm, and the third hot. Add equal amounts of Chemalloy to each graduated cylinder. Instantly, the graduated cylinder containing hot water liberates hydrogen (Fig. 3A).
Patent with images only (no text)
Chemaloy Smelting Process from Patent # 2,796,345 of June 18, 1957
In preparing the alloy of the present invention, the following metals and metal alloys are melted together in a crucible in the following proportions to provide the metallic ingredients:
Pounds
Yellow brass (30% zinc and 70% copper)---------------- 8
Aluminum -------------------------------------------- 8
40-60 solder (40% tin 60% lead) --------------------- 1.5
Silver (.1%) or -------------------------------------- .1
Nickel (.1%) --------------------------------------- .1
Zinc, to make up a 100 pound batch or -------------- 82.3
-----------
100.0
The chemical ingredients are next prepared in approximately the following proportions, for a 100 pound batch of the above metal ingredients:
Powdered copper slag ---------------pounds--------- 3.0
Yellow sulphur ----------------------do------------ 1.25
Willow charcoal ---------------------do------------ 0.75
Commercial muriatic acid ----------gallons--------- 0.50
The chemical ingredients are mixed together thoroughly and the acid added and stirred into the dry ingredients until a thin or watery paste-like mass is produced.
http://www.keelynet.com/energy/chem.htm
Again, nice work there. Thx
Btw ResinRat2 handle -line of work- , nice pick. :)
Hi everyone,
I took some pictures yesterday using a conventional camera (I couldn't locate my digital until today). They are not the quality I had hoped but enough to show the beaker, soln, electrodes, and wires.
You can see the tungsten welding rod on your left and the galvanized nail on your right. The cover is a plastic lid for a one quart container that i pierced with the electrodes. This held them securely in place. The second picture shows the wires connected together, initiating the reaction.
The gas collects in the dead space between the liquid surface and the plastic lid, but it can escape through the pour lip of the beaker.
Hi mramos,
I would say that using Linnard's patent process to produce your hydrogen gas could be an alternative. I don't know if it would really be any safer but it is a new technology that needs to be investigated. That is why I did this experiment. I wanted to confirm its validity.
The patent is available for download in this thread, near the earlier posts.
Here is the link:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=518.0;attach=1830
As I stated in the previous posts. I replicated experiment #13 of the patent. the procedure is outlined very clearly there. It does use caustic NaOH (10%) so there is still the danger of burns.
Good luck and PLEASE be safe.
Hi mikestocks20,
I will be taking more observations but I am sorry to say I did not treat this as a true analytical experiment. I only wanted to put it together and see if it worked. I did not take careful weights like I should have. In this way I am embarassed because I have been doing research for a long time and I was very sloppy on this experiment.
I will try and get as much information as I can from what I have, letting everyone know what I am sure of and what I don't know for sure.
About Chemalloy, I've seen commercials for it in the past and it looked great as a welding substance. Maybe I'm thinking of allumiloy? I'm not sure. As an electrode potential it looks interesting and needs to be investigated. The combinations of metals looks very interesting. I have not made future plans for research in this area yet, but I will consider it.
I'm glad you got the joke of my handle, my colleague is ResinRat1 (lol)
Thank you for your interest.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on November 12, 2006, 08:22:44 AM
I will be taking more observations but I am sorry to say I did not treat this as a true analytical experiment. I only wanted to put it together and see if it worked. I did not take careful weights like I should have. In this way I am embarassed because I have been doing research for a long time and I was very sloppy on this experiment.
I will try and get as much information as I can from what I have, letting everyone know what I am sure of and what I don't know for sure.
ResinRat your excitement to replicate is much more appriciated here then proper analytical results, honestly as long as the tungsten carbide and nickel electrodes do not appear to have pores or plating from redux we'll know exactly what we need to know. I have also read recently that ionized metals are often sold as colloidal metals so that would explain the slight color chage that occured. I will also be replicating this in the coming weeks, and I am in the process of obtaining tungsten carbide rods at the moment. Stefan if you are still haveing troubles obtaining your tungsten carbide I will gladly ship you a care package of rods next week.
Resin please back to us with a discription of the electrode surfaces after apox 60 hours of use. I hope the normal tungsten worked well and I can wait to hear your results confirming the patent. I'm litterally giddy! ;D
Hi ResinRat2,
I think someone once said to Thomas Edison, you failed 2000 times before you made a light bulb, and he replied, "No, I now know 2000 ways how not to make a light bulb".
I suppose your next step is to increase the electrode area in the solution and see how long the reaction will last for.
Keep up the good work, I am looking forward to your next set of results.
Regards
Rob
ResinRat,
many thanks for posting the pics.
I am looking forward to see your next results.
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on November 12, 2006, 05:04:49 PM
Stefan if you are still haveing troubles obtaining your tungsten carbide I will gladly ship you a care package of rods next week.
Well until now I only have thoriated Tungsten rods over here.
I saw on Ebay a few auctions, that just only sell weddings rings and
bracelets made out of TungstenCarbid,
but no welding rods or other rods.
Where can one get these ?
Are also Tungstencarbid plates available, to get a bigger surface area ?
Many thanks.
Hello kingrs,
do you know that Mr. Edison bought a "light bulb"-patent from a
canadian inventor ?
S
dL
p.s.: a search for "the greatest canadian inventors" gives more information
Hi everyone,
Thanks for all the comments and encouragement. I am glad so many people are interested in this experiment. I was going over the posts and I made a list of the items I plan on looking for:
Examination of the texture appearance of each electrode. Looking for evidence of pitting or plating. I will compare these to a couple of unused electrodes. See if I notice any changes.
Measure the DC current across the shorted electrodes.
Give an approximate weight of water consumption (sorry but evaporation will have to be included in this weight. I needed the container open for venting.) This will be over a period of 40 hours when I actually took a weight of the apparatus.
I could run a solids test of the solution in the electrolysis unit and compare it to the solids of the unused solution, but the unused solution was stored in a sealed jar over the weekend. This may not be of much use. I could run it just for interest.
I will also try and add extra tungsten electrodes to see if the gas generation increases with the extra surface area. This one is probably a no-brainer, but I will do it anyway for information purposes.
I also need to remind everyone that I do have other work I need to do at work (lol) not just play time. So have patience. I may leave it going if I am adventurous, but we shall see. I hate to put it away too soon. It is starting to feel like a pet, if you know what I mean. Especially with everyone's encouragement.
That's the plan for Monday. We shall see how it goes as long as I get the chance to work on it between my projects.
Thanks everyone for making this experiment feel worthwhile.
Quote from: hartiberlin on November 12, 2006, 07:48:59 PM
ResinRat,
many thanks for posting the pics.
I am looking forward to see your next results.
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on November 12, 2006, 05:04:49 PM
Stefan if you are still haveing troubles obtaining your tungsten carbide I will gladly ship you a care package of rods next week.
Well until now I only have thoriated Tungsten rods over here.
I saw on Ebay a few auctions, that just only sell weddings rings and
bracelets made out of TungstenCarbid,
but no welding rods or other rods.
Where can one get these ?
Are also Tungstencarbid plates available, to get a bigger surface area ?
Many thanks.
I have a friend who is trying to obtain the rods for her welding supply shop for us, she will be sending me a package of sample rods in the next week and I can forward some to Stefan and resin and anyone else who is really serious about replicating and testing the assertions of experiment 13. Resin after close reading of the patent you are a pro, this is by far the most important experiment listed in the patent and I'm glad you help "catalyze" us in to build mode. I'll be posting more information about obtaining the components as I get it. About plates of Tungsten carbide, they could be used in this cell just like in any battery or electrolysis cell, but we would only need obtain plates plated in tungsten carbide. If indeed there is no loss in potential it means there is no loss in surface area, which means no redox! If our intial tests with these rods provide proof of 100 hours of life or more it may be even more power then we think, the second video claims 350ml per min electrolyzed water per minute, thats over 550 gallons in 100 hours. Wow, this thing absolutely will change the world if it even comes close to the claims.
Thanks again to all who are taking part,
~Dingus
Dont let us get you fired yet resinrat, there is more to test! LOL!!! :D
Hi Stefan and Dingus,
I was doing further study of the patent this morning and paragraph 0116 states that this particular reaction (experiment #13) experimentally found that the production of hydrogen occured at a higher rate than oxygen (confirmed by my experiment), thus the reduction of the zinc did not occur at a rate fast enough to compete with the oxidation of zinc. The zinc anode would eventually deplete. So this will likely occur, as stated in the patent, and the reaction would stop.
However, paragraph 0117 states that the application of an external electrical potential in the direction opposite to the current flow, as outlined in experiment 15, would cause the zinc to reform on the anode and the production of oxygen to occur. So the anode can be regenerated or replaced. So maybe its use as a voltaic power source is limited but the oxidation of the zinc can be reversed. The removal of the power source (or its reversal, if you want to speed up the reaction), after regeneration, will allow the reaction to again produce hydrogen.
So, it's not all bad news. In fact, it's not bad news at all. The normal electrolysis requires electrical current anyway, this way maybe less than half the time it would require external current to be added; or simply keep the external power source applied and reverse it as each reaction slows. There will still be a net gain in energy due to hydrogen's high energy potential. I will study the patent further, but I just wanted to add this information for everyone to see.
There is so much information in this patent, including using the reaction as a power source, that it will take a bit of time to study. I recommend you all take your time and read it further. It has many tidbits of knowledge that can branch out into other projects.
I wonder if we could have two cells going, one that had the zinc oxidized, the other starting fresh, and let them power each other???? Maybe just a crazy thought. It's early in the morning for me so cut me some slack on any goofey ideas I might be dreaming up at this point.
Thanks for your interest.
Hi everyone,
Well, sometime over the last 40 hours the reaction has stopped. When I walked in this morning no activity was seen in the beaker and the zinc electrode had a dark surface. The reduction of the zinc did not keep up with the oxidation, this confirms what I read in the patent this morning before I came to work. The solution in the beaker looks clear.
A total of 22 grams of water (with evaporation included) was consumed in the reaction before it died. This is over a 40 hour period since I weighed the apparatus on Saturday (for me here in the United States). Three moles of gas for every 2 moles of water theoretically gives a volume generation of 22g water/18g per mole water x 22.4L/mole x 3moles gas per 2 moles of water = 41 liters of gas generated over a 40 hour period. Of course it is most likely less time. I think this calculation is correct. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. This is with a 1/16" tungsten electrode.
I brought the solution volume in the beaker back up to its original volume of 80ml with deionized water, then I took a AA 1.5 volt battery and connected the positive electrode to the zinc and the negative to the tungsten. Nothing happened. This was expected if the zinc oxidation had occured.
I then switched the connections and the zinc electrode began to vigorously produce gas. This must be the oxygen that was talked about in the patent. The reaction is vigorous. After 5 minutes it looks like the zinc electrode is beginning to lighten. I will allow this reaction to continue until I see a great slowdown. Then I will remove the battery and see what happens. Theoretically it should start producing hydrogen again.
This is a very interesting experiment. I will keep adding observations as it continues.
Hi everyone,
Just a thought. Looking at it from an equilibrium point of view, since it is a combination of chemical reactions, I wonder if increasing the concentrations of the components that favor the reduction of zinc might shift the equilibrium of the reaction back toward the zinc reduction side. This would balance the reaction and maybe avoid, or slow the depleting of the zinc electrode. This would probably slow the hydrogen production but it might still proceed at an acceptable level.
I'm just brainstorming. Somebody give me your thoughts.
Thanks for your interest.
Hello,
here some info about tungsten carbide, unfortunately only in german ( wikipedia ). Maybe it is also there available in englisch.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolframcarbid (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolframcarbid)
It is not welding-rods. it is a very hard material used for drilling of hard metals or used as tank-cracking weapons ( supplement of uranium).
I am still doing further research. Hope you got the point.
Kator
Hello,
here english information about tungsten carbide. This is a german website of a company in Austria which sells
tungsten-carbide powder:
http://www.wolfram.at/wolfram_at/wDeutsch/produkte/carbid/WC_eigenschaften.html (http://www.wolfram.at/wolfram_at/wDeutsch/produkte/carbid/WC_eigenschaften.html)
Research continues
Kator
Hi,
Here is the English language wikipedia on tungsten carbide:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungsten_carbide
Gyula
olk,
here another german publication, i someone here in germany does further research on this very important
info ::
I deals with the electro-chemical behaviour of tungesten-carbide in KOH-Dilution.
Unortunately one has to be a member of this scientific Info-Service
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/107593358/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0 (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/107593358/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0)
Kator
Hi everyone,
Well, not exactly the results we had all hoped for, but the truth is always important.
I connected the AA - 1.5 volt battery's positive side to the tungsten electrode and the negative to the zinc. The vigorous production of gas (oxygen as described in the patent) from the zinc electrode continued then slowed down after three hours. Examination showed zinc was redepsited on the zinc electrode and the carbide electrode began to have a whitish appearance.
I apologize to everyone that I did not catch the paragraphs on the patent that did describe this possibility with this experiment. I was going by the initial descriptions, which suggested that all the components were regenerated. It seems the reaction rates are not the same and the reduction of zinc does not keep up with its oxidation. This was described farther into the body of the patent.
I will study the other experiments to see if this was resolved without the use of input energy. This may take some time.
Just for your information, the tungsten electrode is again producing gas at a slow, steady rate. So we are most likely again producing hydrogen.
Thank you for your interest
Thanks Resinrat2
Good of you to experiment with Linnards work. I wonder if maybe we've not overlooked experiment #12 which uses nickel instead of tungsten carbide? It says the production of gas is "vigorous" also. I didn't see where one was claimed to be better than the other or maybe I've just misunderstood the report. Certainly though nickel is probably more available and cheaper too then tungsten. Who knows too, perhaps even stainless will work also in its place?
It doesn't seem too bad to me to have to replenish the zinc. On mobile equipment such as a car we can just use the available 12vdc system to do the job. One could have 2 cells for this application, while one is having its zinc replenished with dc current from the car battery system the other can be doing its job of producing hydrogen for the IC engine.
Keep up the good work!
Best,
Stefan,
Just to fill out my data. I did a voltage reading across the electrodes and I measured a reading of 0.764V.
I will be ending this experiment now. I changed the electrodes before I took this reading, new galvanized nail, and six - 1/16" tungsten electrodes wrapped together. The production of hydrogen gas has increased relative to the increased area of the tungsten electrodes, just as I expected.
I will be doing further study of the patent before I attempt any other experiments. The solution itself had pieces of zinc at the bottom of the beaker that fell off from the nail that had zinc deposited on it when the battery was connected. The solution was clear until that point. Some small deposits of precipitate were at the bottom of the beaker, some slightly brownish, others off white. Tiny-sized precipitate.
In summary I have pulled off, since starting the experiment, a total of about 30 grams of water (approx) from the electrolysis process and evaporation. The system does produce hydrogen, but the reduction of zinc does not keep up with zinc oxidation. The process stopped somewhere between 32 and 63 hours of the beginning of the experiment.
The temperature of the water never felt warm, always cool, as if at room temp. I did not use a thermometer because I never thought of it until now.
Thank you everyone for your support and interest during this experiment. Please feel free to email me any suggestions or questions you may have. I will give you all the answers I can. This is not over yet. I still have much I want to investigate out of this process. I will keep you posted on future ideas, experiments, data, etc.
Ok After diving in to the patent a little deeper I have found something from the patent that helps explain our experiment 13 replication failure. In subsections 55-57 it discusses the importance of the catalytic colloids and their electronegitivity relationships to the electrolytes and electrodes. The reson for this is simple: if the Zinc anode has a electronegativity of 1.65 and the colloidal Mg has a electronegativity of 1.31 and the silver has a electronegativity of 1.93; after the silver particles are digested via oxidation, the Zinc has a greater pull on any oxidation occuring in the cell. As it demonstates in the patent equations 29-34 the colloids should be the metals undergoing oxidation but then the particles should be releasing the oxidation as elemental oxygen. I believe it is the relative electronegitivitys and production rates involved that are perhaps causing this test cell to fail, but these galvanic reactions are way over my head! I'm going to try and find a chemistry student from the local college to help me. HAHAHAHA! Really though the reactions listed in those sections explain the colloids funtions in the cell, and it appears that their actual function is to regenerate themselfs with left over energy from the other colloid reactions, thereby releasing elemental oxygen or a base back in to the solution. I believe this process is happening, but at such a slow rate that once the silver is fully oxidized the oxygen then goes after the zinc. I'm not sure if this info helps anyone but I would like to hear back from others with more knowlege in this area. I still plan to build a duplication of this cell to test its life span and metalic consumtion rate, but this is not going to be as easy or simple as we first believed.
Quote from: hartiberlin on October 10, 2006, 01:09:49 AM
Here is the latest video from Linnard attached to this message,
but he did not state much,
what we really see here.
He just wrote:
Hi Stefan,
Thought you would like to see this one. 500 ml per min. out of a 80 ml reactor.
Linnard
I had another look in single step frame mode into this video
and it seems he just uses one big cylindrical electrode and
a smaller rod electrode there beneath the kork closing.
There is one probably copper rod or something simular
coming out in the center of the kork and another wire
goes at the outer edgeof the kork into the baker.
Beneath the kork there seems to be one white-silvery
bigger cylindrical electrode and a smaller rod in front of it,
when he zooms onto it...
So the 2 electrodes are pretty near each other.
The cable that comes from the side of the kork
which probably goes to the smaller rod electrode beneath the kork
is shorted out to the copper rod coming out of the kork
inside the center of the kork.
The left opening in the top in the video
is just only for collecting the gas and putting it into a hose.
It seems that he converts 350 MilliLiters of water per
minute to oxyhydrogen gas.
That is really an amazing oxyhydrogen gas generation !
@ResinRat, thanks for the update,
what real effect did the battery have ?
Did you also try to connect it 180 degrees reversed polarity ?
What did happen then ?
Many thanks.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on November 13, 2006, 08:54:33 AM
Hi everyone,
Just a thought. Looking at it from an equilibrium point of view, since it is a combination of chemical reactions, I wonder if increasing the concentrations of the components that favor the reduction of zinc might shift the equilibrium of the reaction back toward the zinc reduction side. This would balance the reaction and maybe avoid, or slow the depleting of the zinc electrode. This would probably slow the hydrogen production but it might still proceed at an acceptable level.
I'm just brainstorming. Somebody give me your thoughts.
Thanks for your interest.
Yes, this might work,
I guess it is a very balancing act of tuning the concentrations
of the colloidal metals in the cell.
Hi Stefan,
Just got on a minute or so ago.
After I found the reaction had stopped I connected the positive side of the battery to the zinc electrode and the negative side to the tungsten. Nothing happened. Reversing the polarity caused the zinc electrode to begin vigorously releasing gas. This was the oxygen mentioned in the patent. The zinc began to replate on the electrode. After three hours the reaction slowed and after disconnecting the battery the hydrogen started to be produced again.
Sorry I failed you as a chemist Dingus. I guess I've been cooking polymers too long and have gotten rusty (lol). Seriously, I think I need to look more closely at each reaction in this cell and perhaps try adjusting the concentration of the colloids or perhaps even the difference in the surface area of the electrodes to try and push the equilibrium of the cell toward the replating of the zinc. I was extremely busy today with other work and have not had the time or energy to really study this matter in more detail. The patent is very detailed, and I am sure the answer is in the reactions that make up the total cell.
Maybe even the idea of using two cells with opposite oxidation-reduction states of the zinc tied together could power each other, and produce hydrogen or oxygen the whole time.
Thanks for your time. I can only do my best.
Quote from: hartiberlin on November 13, 2006, 07:23:51 PM
It seems that he converts 350 MilliLiters of water per
minute to oxyhydrogen gas.
That is really an amazing oxyhydrogen gas generation !
I have been thinking the same thing: at the rate of 350ml per minute, thats a gallon of water electrolyzed every 11 minutes if a cells lifetime can reach 100 hours like the experiment 13 suggests that cell could break down 550 gallons per lifetime. That is quite a lot of fuel and energy being produced... Even if there must be a sacrificial anode the exchange of (Zn2 + 2(H2O) ---> Zn(OH)2 + H2) is still a pretty good deal, but we must figure out this water fuel only nonreduction cell.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on November 13, 2006, 07:50:15 PM
Sorry I failed you as a chemist Dingus. I guess I've been cooking polymers too long and have gotten rusty (lol).
Seriously, I think I need to look more closely at each reaction in this cell and perhaps try adjusting the concentration of the colloids or perhaps even the difference in the surface area of the electrodes to try and push the equilibrium of the cell toward the replating of the zinc. I was extremely busy today with other work and have not had the time or energy to really study this matter in more detail. The patent is very detailed, and I am sure the answer is in the reactions that make up the total cell.
Resin Rat for shame, never think that! you're in R&D! Failure is better then nothing, and the more failures we have, the closer we come to a solution! About your suggestion of changing the ratios of the electrolyte, I would deffinitely suggest upping the silver levels as they have the highest electronegativity of all the metals involved. Also I believe this may be a light sensitive cell, colloidal silver is apartently very reactant to light. ???
should the concentration of water be allowed to dimish and would this not change the colloidal concentration.
ie, if the water concentration is continually kept at a constant does this maintain the balance for the reactants better ?
Apologies in advance if this is a niave or illinformed comment.
Hi Dean,
Actually, you have a good point. The reduction of the water would increase the colloid concentrations (ppm) in relation to the surface area of the electrodes. As the water level drops, the surface area of the electrodes also reduce. This would lower the rate at which gas is produced as well. So you would have a double change. I will need to look more closely at the reactions to see which are favored by this change.
Keeping the fluid level constant would help eliminate this shift in the equilibrium of the cell. I don't know if this is relevant but the cell stopped working for me after it had lost over 20% of its initial volume. That is when I noticed the plating on the electrodes for the first time. That was after it was left to run unattended for 40 hours or so. I didn't keep the fluid constant because I wanted to measure the water loss. This is very interesting.
I love this forum. Thanks for bringing this up Dean. I will have to look into it more closely. This may be a MAJOR variable that I never thought about.
Unfortunately, am very tired right now and need to get to sleep. I will try to look more closely at this tommorrow.
Your idea too Dingus of increasing the Ag concentration. This would push the equilibrium as well. I just can't think straight right now which direction it would favor. I will have to think about it tommorrow (or in my dreams).
Good Night all, thanks for all your ideas and interest.
Dean, this is exactly why its aways good to work in groups. Thank you very much for your keen observations. This patent is very interesting I'm still trying to digest [0055]-[0058] right now. wow...
I'm going to try to obtain a cheap fuel cell so I can try to close the loop for safety and reaction medium ballance. It would probably be safer that way for anyone else whos not working with a hood. I've found some sites today with H2+Air fuelcells and its kind of expensive but worth having I suppose. If anyone else knows of a cheaper site to obtain a fuel cell from, please let me know.
Fuel cells (H2+air)
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=NavPage/cat=61/sort=price
http://www.minihydrogen.dk/catalog/shop.php?cPath=57_50
As long as I'm posting that, I might as well post info on the other supplys...
NaOH
http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/SLS2503
http://www.chemicals-finder.com/index.asp?function=DISPLAYPRODUCT&productid=12
Colloids Ag and Mg
http://www.purestcolloids.com/mesosilver_price_list.htm#Mesosilver500mL
http://www.kellycolloidalsilver.com/site/694355/product/kcs8oz
http://www.silvermountainminerals.com/magnesium.html (needs dilluting)
Please feel free to quote and add to this list.
I'm still waiting to hear back about the WC rods... I'll let you guys know soon.
Hi everyone,
I was looking over the 350ml/min video and maybe the idea of worring about consuming the zinc is not that important. It didn't seem like his reaction rate was hurt by the loss of water either.
The idea of replating the zinc by the input of power, say if it is an automobile, could be powered by the alternator; but I noticed when the zinc was replated during my oxygen generation it deposited on the electrode with a very irregular shape. The replated zinc also fell off the electrode with just a little jarring of the container. This would then be useless since it would not be in contact with the electrical connection and just be sitting on the bottom of the container..
I think I will begin looking at this from the point of view of maximizing the hydrogen generation and not worry about sacrificing the zinc. I was thinking that my galvanized nail didn't cost much, and it would have been easier to just replace it with a new one than to hook up a battery to reverse the current flow.
Thanks for your interest.
Dingus,
I'm glad you are reading over the patent. It is a great piece of work. Linnard put so much important information in it that it will take me time to digest it all.
Yes, the patent is really a wonderful help to understand all the processes, but it really takes time to reread it all a few times and also understand it....
Maybe we can discuss this here more informatively, if we use the chemical equations,that we think are going on in this cell...
By the way you can build yourself a fuelcell, if you use 2 graphite rods in a saltwater baker and have around each rod some more conductive graphite powder. The two graphite compartments do not have to touch. Then put in one beneath it hydrogen and in the other beneath it oxygen. This will create then a oxy and hydrogen powered battery. It could be, that one still needs a catalyst inside the graphite powder to break down the molecular H2 and O2 bindings, so the gas will charge up better the graphite...
@ResinRat
Could you please try to substitute the Tungstenrod with a graphite rod and see, if this will generate as well gas ? Thanks.
Just For Fun-
I made myself some colloidal silver and also some colloidal magnesium. I don't have a PPM tester so I won't even venture to guess as to what concentration they may be. I used distilled water to make each batch.
I mixed the two colloidal solutions in equal parts and added a bit of sodium hydroxide.
I placed in the solution a zinc electrode and one nickel plated electrode. This configuration produced 0.5 volts. Then I connected the two electrodes via copper wire and bubbles began to form at the nickel electrode(+) I didn't see any bubbles at the zinc electrode(-) I tried replacing the nickel plated electrode with one of stainless steel and I observed about the same production of bubbles as with the nickel one. I can't be sure of the quantity of gases produced since I am not measuring them at this point. Also haven't collected and burnt the gases to determine if its hydrogen or not.
You remove the wire that connects the two electrodes and the process(bubbles) then stop.
I didn't have any tungsten/carbide handy so thought I would try it with other readily available materials.
Just wanted to report my initial findings.
Best,
Does anybody know a cheap catalyst, that breaks down H2 into H and H and O2 gas into O and O ? Normally this is done via Platin plating in graphite based fuelcells, but this is too expensive...
You can charge a graphite based fuelcell also via a current, so if you take the above graphite cell I described and apply more than 2 Volts, the current will charge it up and it will work as a supercapacitor. Try it, it is really amazing what it can store this way... Now we must find out, how it can be charged up by the gas itsself effectively via catalysts...
@PG46
Many thanks for confirming this experiment. Maybe you can let it run and see how long it will generate gas and if the electrodes will be consumed.
If you have a graphite rod, maybe from an old mono cell zink-carbon battery, please try this one as one electrode, then you get a higher voltage.
Can you please measure the current flowing, when you short it out via a DC ampmeter ?
Many thanks.
Quote from: hartiberlin on November 14, 2006, 10:21:23 AM
Does anybody know a cheap catalyst, that breaks down H2 into H and H and O2 gas into O and O ? Normally this is done via Platin plating in graphite based fuelcells, but this is too expensive...
You can charge a graphite based fuelcell also via a current, so if you take the above graphite cell I described and apply more than 2 Volts, the current will charge it up and it will work as a supercapacitor. Try it, it is really amazing what it can store this way... Now we must find out, how it can be charged up by the gas itsself effectively via catalysts...
Hi Stefan,
I posted above regarding chemaloy and an old patent, claiming only plain water and the chemaloy as catalyst breaking down water.
Interesting find also here on Ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ALTERNATIVE-FREE-ENERGY-CHEMALLOY-HYDROGEN-GENERATOR_W0QQitemZ170048488351QQihZ007QQcategoryZ41980QQcmdZViewItem
A general note regarding dissimilar metals.
When we place dissimilar metals in any electrolyte solution we get a galvanic effect, basically we've created a battery, where the metals are consumed/altered.
The Idea for a great invention would be to create H without destroying the metals but only consuming water, or if any reverse plating is required it needs to take less energy to do than the energy produced by the device, otherwise we just created a low efficiency battery.
Hi pg46,
Looks like you duplicated experiment #11 of the patent. Excellent. Now we have a confirmation of that one as well. Hopefully it will run longer than Experiment #13 did.
;D
Hi -
My electrode is into the solution only 4 cm deep. It is producing 0.5 volts like I had mentioned earlier and for Hartiberlin, I checked with my DC amp gauge and it reads at 40ma of current while producing gas.
I will try sometime with some carbon electrode which I think I have around here somewhere and also may try with KOH in another solution.
My zinc electrode is quite a big piece of pure zinc metal 1mm thick x 2cm wide and so I think it would take a really long time for it to go away.
If I disconnect the wire between the electrodes for a few minutes then the voltage climbs on up to about 0.75 Volts and then can produce about 80 ma briefly.
Thats it for now
Stefan,
Looking at the patent again I think we might have a clue to the 350ml/min video. When you get time look at the information beginning on paragraph 0122. This is the aluminum-acid cell. It is decscribed as almost uncontrollable for reaction rate. Also it says the reactions are balanced. So the oxidation and reduction can balance each other.
I will look to see if one of the experiments duplicates this reaction.
Stefan-
I tried the carbon rod in place of the zinc electrode and there was very little or no bubbles. I then put the carbon in place of the nickel electrode and still there was little or no noticeable reaction happening.
Best,
Hi PG46,
thanks for trying the carbon. You must replace the Nickel with it....
Hmm, did you make sure, that there was no plating of metal as you put the graphite rod first wrongly in ?
Please wash off the graphite rod with water and try again...
It could be, that all the metal electrodes and the coloidal metal needs to have the right chemical difference voltage due to their electronegatively to get it to work and that graphite was then out of the range...
PG46 , please try again to substitute the electrolyte with saltwater and see, if this also generates gas at the nickel and zinc electrodes. Many thanks.
Quote from: mikestocks2006 on November 14, 2006, 10:43:24 AM
A general note regarding dissimilar metals.
When we place dissimilar metals in any electrolyte solution we get a galvanic effect, basically we've created a battery, where the metals are consumed/altered.
The Idea for a great invention would be to create H without destroying the metals but only consuming water, or if any reverse plating is required it needs to take less energy to do than the energy produced by the device, otherwise we just created a low efficiency battery.
This is not the case actually, I have been playing with galvanic/voltaic reactions for years.
(saltwater cell/urine cell/ironoxide cell/dry pile)
This cell actually uses two highly reactive colloidal metals, one a reducer, one a oxidizer. The reducer colloid accepts the oxidation before the zinc and then reacts with the oxidizer colloid to release the oxygen. Thats is what subsection [0059] describes at least. I just want to make sure people realize this is not a normal galvanic cell, and it deserves intense research. Most normal galvanic cells would not spawn gas at the cathode, it would be plating the cathode and reducing the anode, rarely producing gas unless taking it from a acid. In this reaction I do not believe the cathode is recieving plating, but only tests will tell us for sure.
AHHHHH! My head is going to explode! :o - ouch!
Ionic electrovalent bonded molecules interacting with more positive ionic metals, finding the entrophy and enthalpy plus Gibbs from room temp, determining if each reaction is spontanious or not... But there is way too much going on in this cell for me to unserstand it at this time. The chemistry required to transcribe each reactions details step by step in this forum is over my head. I doubt I would get even close to accurate to whats actually happening. I'm lacking in the chemisty knowlege required for that. I'll still be building a test cell though.
:-[
Is there a chemist in the house?
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on November 14, 2006, 03:24:40 PM
Quote from: mikestocks2006 on November 14, 2006, 10:43:24 AM
A general note regarding dissimilar metals.
When we place dissimilar metals in any electrolyte solution we get a galvanic effect, basically we've created a battery, where the metals are consumed/altered.
The Idea for a great invention would be to create H without destroying the metals but only consuming water, or if any reverse plating is required it needs to take less energy to do than the energy produced by the device, otherwise we just created a low efficiency battery.
This is not the case actually, I have been playing with galvanic/voltaic reactions for years.
(saltwater cell/urine cell/ironoxide cell/dry pile)
This cell actually uses two highly reactive colloidal metals, one a reducer, one a oxidizer. The reducer colloid accepts the oxidation before the zinc and then reacts with the oxidizer colloid to release the oxygen. Thats is what subsection [0059] describes at least. I just want to make sure people realize this is not a normal galvanic cell, and it deserves intense research. Most normal galvanic cells would not spawn gas at the cathode, it would be plating the cathode and reducing the anode, rarely producing gas unless taking it from a acid. In this reaction I do not believe the cathode is recieving plating, but only tests will tell us for sure.
Hi Dingus.
ResinRat2 wrote earlier:
I have a 5% NaOH solution here at work that I am now reducing by evaporation to a 10% concentration as outlined in the patent. I purchased 50ppm colloidal silver and 350ppm colloidal magnesium from the health food store. I also obtained a tungsten carbide electrode from a welding supply near me, and I plan on using a galvanized nail for the zinc electrode. I also have the copper wire for the connection. I am going to try to replicate the experiment exactly (concentrations of colloidal suspensions).
Note the 10% NaOH solution, and 2 dissimilar metals. Are we not having a galvanic cell? So yes I think this maybe the case in general, (easy to find out and/or prove, experiment) Having said that however; the other components maybe used to prevent consumption of the tungsten carbide and zinc or to at least inhibit plating? Not sure...
Hi Dingus,
I have been spending some time today, on and off, writing down the chemical and electrical interactions of the cell. I'm trying to get a more complete understanding of the experiment #13 and all that's involved.
Beginning on paragraph 0122 of the patent a more "vigorous" reaction is described using an aluminum-acid type of cell. Once I study what went on in # 13; I may look at this one as a possible next direction. I think this is the reaction shown in the 350ml/min video. I might be wrong but it could be a likely candidate, since it is described as almost "uncontrollable". Now THAT sounds interesting don't you think?
I hope so many people jump onboard experimenting with Linnard's work that it will spread like wildfire.
The only problem is I need to find a SAFE way to operate these experiments. That means carefully controlling the gasses that result. I don't think that doing these experiments at where I work is an option now. Technically I need to do a Management of Change Review with the Safety Committee. There is NO WAY they would approve the production of explosive gasses in the company.
It was fun and interesting to try it though.
Thanks for your interest.
By the way, my reactor is dismantled now. The experiment is over for now.
@ Mike, I would have to agree that two dissimilar metals in an electrolyte is a galvanic cell, but the addition of two other dissimilar metals in that galvanic reaction is what throws me off. Its not a normal wet cell and does not truely behave like one either. The principles are the same but the outcome is quite different...
@ Resin Rat, Don't forget to take in to account the heat and potential changes of each endo/exo reaction... Thats when my head started pounding. LOL! I hope you will post your figures so I'll know where I overcomplicated my proofs. Good luck with the equations and thank you for your expertise and time. Please keep us updated on your progress as you are head of the class at the moment.
I would also agree that safty should be our #1 concern for all of our fellow members. Trying each cell with minimal cathode and anode surface areas will slow the reaction rate, and adding a fuel cell will convert as much of the hydrogen back to water as possible. With these two precautions, we should be successful in maintaning user safty. Outdoors only of course...
Please let us know of any other safety suggestions any of you may have!
Also I'm now convinced the info we are all looking for is contained in subsections 56-59. Subsection 59's closing sentance does makes reference to an acidic electrolyte being used in the ambient heat powered cell mentioned in the evworld article. This is all quite amaizing, and I know in time we will prove successful in replicating the cell.
Again... THANK YOU ALL!!!
~Dingus
OK Dingus,
I promised I was looking over the reactions of experiment #13, now I'm going to prove my salt as a Chemist.
After looking over the equations involved in this patent I have come to the conclusion that I was right. The regeneration of the zinc can be influenced as an equilibrium problem of the components of the cell.
The equation that directly involves the regeneration of the zinc also controls the production of oxygen on the zinc electrode. The equation being:
2Zn+2 + 2Mgc --> 2Mgc+2 + 2Zn
Due to Magnesium being above zinc on the eletromotive series of metals this reaction readily occurs. However, when you look at how Dr. Linnard designed the experiment, the concentration of Silver colloid is double that of Magnesium. This means he was highly favoring the hydrogen production, and thus slowing down the zinc reduction. This is why zinc does not regenerate well in this experiment, and also why oxygen is not produced well off the zinc electrode.
If the colloidal concentrations of the magnesium and silver colloids were more equal, than the zinc electrode would be able to regenerate itself at a faster rate. Unfortunately, this would also slow the hydrogen production. That would be OK, since we are trying to design a cell that regenerates itself completely, and only consumes water.
If we are trying to design a cell that can regenerate all the components at a rate that allows just hydrogen and oxygen to be produced then we need to control the concentrations of the colloids. These are the major components of the zinc reduction.
I propose an experiment that is identicle to experiment #13, except that the magnesium and silver colloid concentrations are equal in ppm. In this case, let's double the silver colloid to 40ppm and quadriple the magnesium colloid to 40ppm as well. This would give a better rate of oxygen production off the anode(zinc) and favor the reduction of the zinc ion. It would also try to minimize the reduction of the rate of hydrogen gas that this shift would cause.
This would, unfortunately slow down the hydrogen production. The following equation in the cell directly influences the production of the hydrogen:
2Mgc + 2Zn+2 --> 2Mgc+2 + 2Zn
This means I am reducing the amount of Zn+2 in the solution and thus shifting the following reaction that generates hydrogen and electrical energy to the left:
2Zn + 4H2O <-- 2Zn+2 + 2H2 + 4OH-
This will favor the left side of the equation and lower the rate of hydrogen gas production.
We may have to adjust the colloid levels after an experimental test, to try and get the rates right, but this is what I propose. It does mean HHO gas will be produced, not just mostly hydrogen, but this is the price to pay for a balanced cell. The use of hot water in the cell would help boost the reaction rates as well, but this would require energy. This may not be necessary.
I will type out the equations and how I arrived at this conclusion, but that will have to be something I send seperately or at a later post. It is a rather long series of equations that had to be looked over and solved for the right equilibrium reactions that would influence zinc reduction.
This is worth a try. Just to see what happens. Too bad I don't have anywhere to test this theory at the moment.
Thanks for your interest.
;D
Resin, you just made my night!
I'm excited to see how this next experiment will play out.
I wonder then... What would pushing the colloidal metal
ballance more twards the magnesium end of the scale do?
I wonder if Stefan is still planning on working on this too?
Quick Note-
Stefan- I tried again the carbon rod in place of the nickel electrode. There was after all some gas production but it was very slow in comparison to the nickel. The voltage and the amperage was lower also.
I put a bit of dc power to my cell to see what would happen. Shortly thereafter it stopped producing gas altogether. So my cell ran about 14 hrs and then stopped. I could charge the cell again with DC and it would go again for a while and then quit.
I tried a cell with just some KOH in distilled water with the zinc and nickel electrodes. It produced gas also but at a lower rate then in the other cell with the colloidal metals. I heated the KOH solution and then got very nice production from the nickel electrode. I then replaced the nickel with one of stainless steel. The stainless produced well but not near as much as with the nickel electrode.
Best,
Dingus,
Just as a comment to your question. The increase in the magnesium would favor the production of oxygen and the plating of the zinc. It would also reduce the electrical energy that the cell produces.
We have a balancing act here. The silver colloid favors the production of hydrogen from the reaction:
4Agc + 4H2O <--> 4Agc+ + 2H2 + 4OH-
By shifting the equation to the left in order to replate the Zn in the equation:
2Zn + 4H2O <--> 2Zn+2 + 2H2 + 4OH-
We push the equation to the left. This hurts the Hydrogen production rate since it is on the right. This is a balancing act. I still have not considered actual rates of each equation. How slow can we stand the hydrogen production? Do we really want HHO gas or almost all Hydrogen gas. That is the price we pay for a balanced cell.
I don't even know if this is practical. Theoretically we can reach it, but what is the ultimate goal? Do we want maximum hydrogen production with the loss of the zinc, or can we make a balanced cell that requires no energy input and regenerates itself with modest or very slow hydrogen and oxygen production.
This is fascinating, cutting edge stuff.
Thanks for your interest.
Hello ResinRat2,
can you have a look at my Post #41 in this section :
Quote from: Kator01 on November 11, 2006, 02:58:36 PM
here is another important info about the lanthanoide Cer : Please read carefully, it reacts with water to Cer-Hydroxid and pure H-Gas.
It is all in German, unortunately for our english friends here, but it is the only webside which gives this detailed info
about Cer producing H-Gas.
Now the reason why I put this info here is because I discovered that there exists a tungsten-cer-welding-rod.
Look here the different kind of welding-rods on another page of www.furtmayr.de ( see my my last post.)
There is a lot to experiment on :
http://www.furtmayr.de/wolfram/details.html#rot
If there is a person here who is well versed in chemistry : How can one convert Cer-Hydroxide back to Cer and
Water ?
In Switzerland post-busses had a Cer-Brick as a catalyst for producing H-Gas. Way back in the 60 ties they used only this H-Gas fuel and abandoned it in the 70 ties.
Kator01
Hi all,
This might be an easier way to see what the increase in Mg colloid does in the reaction.
The colloid would react with the zinc ions to plate the zinc out and speed this reaction:
2Zn+2 + 2Mgc --> 2Mgc+2 + 2Zn
Then the Mgc+2 ion would go to the tungsten cathode and reduce, thus stealing energy:
Tungsten(cathode): 2Mgc+2 + 4e- --> 2Mgc
This competes with the Hydrogen production at the same cathode:
Tungsten(cathode): 4H2O + 4e- --> 2H2 + 4OH-
Thus the hydrogen generation speed is slowed, but the zinc is replated and oxygen is produced at a higher rate. At least I think it would slow. Finding the right balance experimentally will help us to build the balanced cell we desire.
Hope this helps. I know it is a bit tedious, and I hope I didn't make any mistakes writing it down. I will go over the posts just to make sure.
Thanks for your interest.
Hi Kator01,
I looked at the website you gave a link for, used google to translate. Not too good of a job of translating.
I was hoping if you know why this technology was abandoned? Could it have had something to do with toxicity/pollution/carcinoginic properties?
I am kind of curious, but I am not sure what you are asking me to do? I assume you think it might be of interest in using with Linnard's colloidal system. I honestly have not made any real future plans to test anything yet, I will have to plan a way to do this at home. That would mean getting a electrolysis unit, etc.
I think Dr. Linnard's patent has so much information and well detailed experiments to build off of that I want to encourage as many people as possible to begin testing his ideas. If you have an idea, jump for it. The small 100ml cell I put together was not very difficult at all. I bought all the parts at eletronics/hardware/welding supply stores (except for NaOH solution). Just keep safety in mind.
Kator, maybe you can test it yourself too. You have all the information. I say go for it!
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Hi ResinRat2
my basic intention is to find the most simple system of Hydrogen-Production. This is the reason why I tried to draw your the attention to a system which has worked efficiently for more than a decade.
Althoug it is a lot of fun and a challenge to follow this Linnhard-patent I regard this to be very complicated especially because colloidale elements are used which are ( according to my 3 years experience in Ag-Colloide-production ) very sensitive to light and it is hard to tell how this sensitivity influences the efficiency and the lifetime of the cell.
Bern, Switzerland:
why the use of this fuelsystem had stopped I simply do not know, because swiss-people especially the region Bern at that times were living very isolated. Even a swiss journalist could not find the reason why they abandoned it.
I think it was just the decision in favour of oil. Imagine : if they wouldnt have abandoned it,
would there be any reason for establishing diesel od gas-engines ?
I think the swiss banks had a say in it, all systems with better efficiency became victim to the interest of the oil-companies. The same thing was true with one of Teslas technologies. Banks made the decision for oil which
brought the technology ofTesla to an abrupt halt.
Anyway,please have a look here in the english wikipedia, scroll down to the subtitle Precautions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerium)
You simply need just pure Cerium and water to release Hydrogen and have left Cerium-Hydroxid.
Amount of gas-production depends on the water-temperature.
So I simply was asking if someone here knows how to get Cerium-Hydroxid back to Cerium and ???
Anyone here with a good chemical background - as I consider you resinRat2 as such a person - can give an answer to this, I am sure.
This swiss post-system had a way to simply recyle the Cerium-Hydroxid regaining pure Cerium for another lifecycle.
We often are blinded by the presentation of complicated systems because it is a challenge to our well educated
minds and skills. But we then overlook the fact that there exist a much more simple way of getting the same results.
By the way, Cerium is not very toxic especially if used is closed systems. It is contained in a certain percentage in the old firestones used of more than 100 years now ( and still is) before the piezo-sytems tokk over in our modern times.
Kator01
Kator, are you from Switzerland ? Maybe you can try to find out more, why this technology is not used anymore and find some people on the telephone and call them and report their views how well the technology worked ?
Maybe it was too expensive to recycle the Ceriumhydroxid back to Cerium?
If we can get a Linnard Griffin cell to work as well as Dr. Griffin seems to have accomplished, there is nothing to recycle and so does not need any input power..so it is easier..
I would assume the project was scrapped for two simple reasons:
Lathanides are rare, and in elemental/ionic form most are radioactive/poisonous in nature.
Stephan,
no, I am not from Switzerland but was asking Schneiders to research on this, no result.
I do not agree that Linnards Patent is easyer to accomplish, I will not explain it a second time.
The facts are clear written in the links I have given.
Dingus Mungus : No, it is not radioactiv and not very toxic. I found a Company in Autria who sells this Lantanoide which is the most abundant one among the Lanthanoides and as far as I remember the price was about 130 ? / Kg. But I have to recheck this data- this was 1 year ago.
Pleople : Please read the given Links i- t is all written there. Why do you choose complicated systems and spend valuable time on this, but hesitate to even have a closer look at simple systems. It is really a psychological problem.
I simply asking a chemically versed person here : How can chemically recycle Cer-Hydrid to pure Cer ?
It is easier to answer this question instead of doing longterm research without results.
Please, is a person here to give an answer to this simple question and not argue with me instead ?
Kator
An idea I had about a closed loops sealed cell design.
Hi Kator,
I am looking into the cer-hydrid idea you proposed. It doesn't look like it's toxic. So far the only reaction that I found that may reverse it is a platinum catalyst-hydrogen reaction, but this uses hydrogen to accomplish it. That won't work.
I will look further. Have patience and give me a little time.
Thanks for your input.
Hi Dingus,
I do like this closed-cell idea. Very good, simple way to keep the anode material directly connected electrically. Fuel cell on top, very nice.
Electrodes produce gas, Fuel cell generates electricity to power motor and excess can be used (if there is any available) to keep the cell in balance. Maybe fuel cell connected to a battery for charging, like you suggested, and run the motor off the battery. Excess voltage can keep the cell in balance.
Very nice, innovative design.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on November 16, 2006, 08:30:30 AM
Hi Dingus,
I do like this closed-cell idea. Very good, simple way to keep the anode material directly connected electrically. Fuel cell on top, very nice.
Electrodes produce gas, Fuel cell generates electricity to power motor and excess can be used (if there is any available) to keep the cell in balance. Maybe fuel cell connected to a battery for charging, like you suggested, and run the motor off the battery. Excess voltage can keep the cell in balance.
Very nice, innovative design.
Thanks for the compliments on the design, its still just a concept though. I think the final safty solution for this technolgy is sealing it in a state of ballance and converting the H2 quick enough to prevent pressure from building up. How does one make a seal hydrogen cant pass??? Is it possible? The other question is: if we used the anode and cathode materials from experiment 10 will that stop the fragmenting of the anode? To really be able to use this technology on demand in a vehicle, we must ensure two things: (1) the anode can not fragment with time since the replating process is not efficent. (2) the fuel cell should not be submerged/splashed in the electrolyte.
We got a lot of things to figure out yet, but I feel we're way ahead of the curve. I'll be ordering the last of my supplies this weekend, but I'm still not sure where I'm going to do this yet. (Living in a apartment right now)
Hi Dingus,
Does your stove or bathroom have a vent? (lol)
:D ;D
Quote from: ResinRat2 on November 16, 2006, 03:30:15 PM
Hi Dingus,
Does your stove or bathroom have a vent? (lol)
:D ;D
ROFL!!! :D
I think I'll just work outdoors on this one... I just hope no one steals or destroys it.
I'll just have to get a house next year, I really need a better workspace soon...
Hi Dingus,
Actually, sealing the system in a enclosed case, totally isolated from light is a great idea. A balanced system can be kept balanced by monitoring any voltage changes and interjecting energy if the zinc needs to be replated or tweaked.
This is a very interesting concept, once the cell is developed that is.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on November 16, 2006, 03:36:59 PM
Hi Dingus,
Actually, sealing the system in a enclosed case, totally isolated from light is a great idea. A balanced system can be kept balanced by monitoring any voltage changes and interjecting energy if the zinc needs to be replated or tweaked.
This is a very interesting concept, once the cell is developed that is.
The concept of a sealed cell design is really simple: only heat can get in and only electricity can get out. (in theory)
If we can meet those two requirements with even your current cell design would work. My only real concerns
with that design is: (1) escaping hydrogen since its so crazy small (2) wattage generated by the fuelcell must be sparingly and carefully applied to the electrolysis reactor.
Its hard for me to descirbe my fear in how its related to applying the full potential of the fuel cell to the reator. An analogy would be: if you had a wheel that would always spin at the same speed while generating power, and you used that power to spin the wheel faster thus generating more power. The result would be a wheel accelerating until it tore itself in to chunks of shrapnel. I don't know if this analogy works with the chemistry of this cell, but its still a scary thought to imagine that exponetial potential growth when involving hydrogen reactions... Maybe I'm being silly since there is a max production rate based on surface area and temperature, I dont really know though. Altho if the cell is indeed endothermic in nature, perhaps applying the full potential of the fuelcell to the electrolysis reactor would result in the reactors rapid loss of temperature, thereby slowing the reaction by lowering the Gibbs FE present.
Are there any alternative ideas for a even simpler sealed reactor. Stefan had metioned building our own fuel cells, perhaps he would have some insight on how to even further minimize the cells component count and costs.
Anyone else replicating this cell???
I have a question .. please feel free to answer if you are more cluey than my year 12 chemistry credentials...
CO in the presence of HH0 in solution with the carbon rod replacement in experiment 12.
Was just thinking in terms of the proximity of the anode and cathode and the free electrons potentially creating enough heat to create the CO.
Would this influence the break of HH0 into H2 O2.
Kind of just guessing here .. so no need to go into a full explanation if you know straight of the top of your head that its not relevant.
Regards,
Dean
I was never actually schooled in chemistry, but I've read all about on my own time.
Carbon if used in the cell discussed here would be oxidized to CO2, and only further catalyze the release of hydrogen, but you could not get the carbon back so it would deplete and pressurize the cell in time. An additional note: Carbon is not a regular metal so I don't think it can be substituted as a colloial or electrode. I hope this was the information you were looking for, if not sorry in advance.
Thanks .. thought it was probably a bit off track ..
cheers,
Dean
Fuel cells (H2+air)
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=NavPage/cat=61/sort=price
http://www.minihydrogen.dk/catalog/shop.php?cPath=57_50
NaOH
http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/SLS2503
http://www.chemicals-finder.com/index.asp?function=DISPLAYPRODUCT&productid=12
Colloids Ag and Mg
http://www.purestcolloids.com/mesosilver_price_list.htm#Mesosilver500mL
http://www.kellycolloidalsilver.com/site/694355/product/kcs8oz
http://www.silvermountainminerals.com/magnesium.html (needs dilluting)
Anodes
http://www.boatzincs.com/zinc_rods.html
http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/10-504-1
tunsten cathodes
????????????????????????????
My friend is still trying to get some for me... :'(
Please feel free to quote and add to this list.
Hi Dingus,
Just go to anyplace that sells welding supplies. The cathodes are used in welding. Just tell them what you want and they will know.
Hi--
Probably cost more than welding rods but you might have a look at tungsten/carbide drill bits. They're pretty common I think.
Best,
Ive found Tungsten Carbide plated mill bits, saw blades, and plates but no rods. I have access to standard Tungsten rods through my friends weilding shop, but a pure Tunsten rod is not fully inert to the reaction. :-\
So I'll be getting pure tunsten welding rods for now, but I really need to find a WC plated rod of some sort.
I'm ordering tonight! ;D <-- "big grin"
Update:
Ordered my stuff and found the cheapest fuel cell on the net. Safe free hydrogen power for less then 50$...
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=Item/cat=61/product=950
Hi everyone,
Just for your information. An attempt was made to chemically balance Linnard's electrolysis process so that the zinc electrode of experiment 13 would regenerate at a rate such that it would never need to be replaced.
The magnesium colloid level was slowly increased in the cell until it was well over 50 times the original level of Mg. (Magnesium colloid is the component that regenerates the zinc).
Zinc Regeneration: 2Zn+2 + 2Mgc--> 2Mgc+2 + 2Zn
The Ag level was also increased to over five times its original level in order to keep the hydrogen gas evolution at a good rate.
Hydrogen from Ag: 4Agc + 4H2O --> 4Agc+ + 2H2 + 4OH-
Well even at this rediculously high level of Magnesium, the zinc would not replate and no oxygen came off the zinc electrode. This means no level of magnesium colloid (up to and including 50 times its original level) would cause the zinc electrode to regenerate. In fact, as the magnesium level increased to this high level, the production of hydrogen visibly appeared to decrease. So this was hurting the hydrogen production, just as was feared. This is subjective, but it seems obvious. Also it appears this level of magnesium hurts solubility of the cell since a brown layer has begun to form on the bottom of the cell. This might be the silver ions beginning to precipitate, but this is just speculation. It might be something else happening.
So it must be concluded that with the cell designed as in Experiment #13, the eqilibrium of the cell cannot be chemically shifted to replate the zinc. Therefore the zinc electrode would eventually have to be replaced, or a power source (battery) would have to be connected to the electrodes to replate the zinc in order to get the cell working again.
This would still be a successful overunity device because the energy gained by the hydrogen gas produced would far exceed the small energy it would require to regenerate the zinc; or a new zinc electrode (cheap) could replace the depleted one. Then the hydrogen generation could begin again.
Personal preference is for the use of the battery, only because this would mean no other components, except water, would need to be added to the cell. It is suspected that if the zinc electrode had to be replaced several times it would eventually deplete the caustic (NaOH) and the OH- ions would eventually be used up.
Oxygen generation: 2Zn+2 + 4OH- --> 2H2O +2Zn + O2
Using the battery for intermittent regeneration of the zinc seems to be the best option for long term, continuous operation.
This concludes my research into the Linnard Hydrogen Generation Patent Experiment #13. Its major advantage is the ability to generate hydrogen gas without the addition of any other power source (except intermittant regeneration of the zinc electrode) and without an exotherm. It is believed that its use as a hydrogen source for fuel cells will be very popular once a reliable design can be developed. Also, it could be a major source of hydrogen once our economy finally makes the switch to this clean, unlimited resource.
It is also believed that the other experiments in Linnard's patent could be worth studying, especially the experiment with Aluminum/Sulfuric Acid cell which is described as almost "uncontrollable" for hydrogen generation.
Wonder what would happen if platinum electrodes were used? What if there were two cells at different stages of zinc oxidation and they were hooked up to each other in order to power each other? Maybe then you wouldn't even need a battery for zinc regeneration? Alas, it is for someone else to answer. Why should I have all the fun? (lol)
Thank you for your interest.
Have anyone tried to use LEAD ?
This must also work and is cheaper to buy
Pes
Hi Pese,
Lead could be used for this process and I believe more than one experiment outlined in Linnard's patent uses lead as one of the components. I wanted to stay away from lead for fear of toxicity. It was just a personal decision on my part, not that I thought it wouldn't work.
Thanks for your comment and interest.
Hi RR2
No problem with Lead ( Blei ).
There is this to sheet metals 0,5mm 1mm enz for roof and masonry works.
Thus radiation screens.
Toxid? Dukannst it process. With shears or measurer cut. And only IE of hands wash before you bread from the hand to eat would like.
There are give no problems. Only swallow direct touching and into the body.
(That was in former times also the problem with lead-coated gasoline)
G Pese
Hi Everyone,
I was doing a great deal of experimenting yesterday with the idea of using two cells with Linnard Patent Experiment #13. I?ve come to the conclusion we need a battery power source to balance the reactions electrically. There must be a activation energy difference in the hydrogen and oxygen generation reactions large enough that it cannot be overcome chemically or even with a larger electrode. I tried increasing the area of both. The only reaction that I could encourage to go faster is the hydrogen generation. The oxygen just can?t quite get out fast enough to keep pace so the zinc regeneration lags.
My goals were to find a circuit that would generate hydrogen in one cell and oxygen in the other at the same time. Then the connections on the battery would be reversed and the hydrogen would form in the opposite cell and the oxygen in the other. The drawing of that circuit is the BatterySetup image below.
When the connections are made as shown, gas pours off of the Tungsten electrode (hydrogen) in Cell A and the Zinc electrode (oxygen) in Cell B. This also regenerates the zinc on the electrode. The reaction is very vigorous for about 15 to 30 seconds, then begins to slow. When the battery is reversed the same thing happens but the hydrogen and oxygen are produced in the other cells.
In other words, if you switch the battery connections back and forth, you can have a continuous flow of HHO gases. The colloids could be adjusted if the mixture of gasses is not correct, but this is the circuit I was looking for. More experimenting needs to be done but the advantages of this system is that zinc is constantly being regenerated a little at a time, both gasses are coming off constantly and the zinc electrodes are constantly being regenerated. So a relay switch of some type would switch the battery connections back and forth every 15-30 seconds.
This is FANTASTIC! Hook this up with a fuel cell above it and you could charge the battery that would power the relay and the gas generation. This is your overunity device!!
That?s not all, I also wanted a connection that would generate gas off both Tungsten (hydrogen) electrodes and then switch the battery connections and it would then generate gas off both zinc (oxygen and zinc regeneration) electrodes. The drawing of that circuit is Batterysetup_2Linnard below.
This circuit could be used to balance the gasses produced or boost zinc regeneration. If either needed a boost, then this would be used. If used as shown; gas pours off of both Tungsten electrodes (hydrogen generation). When the battery is switched, the gas pours off of both zinc electrodes (oxygen and zinc regeneration).
Do you see what this means. With these two circuits you have complete control of the mixture of gas generated, and you also have complete control of the anode regeneration. With a fuel cell above this you can produce electricity to power and control every aspect of the cell. Using Linnard?s process the reactions are not exothermic. So no heat is generated.
More needs to be worked out, but I can see the light on this one. This can be a unit in an electrically powered car that runs on WATER! Theoretically nothing would ever have to be added (except water) since all the components are regenerated. The colloids are regenerated too within the reaction. This does need some long term testing though. I am trying to set up a relay that switches automatically so I don't have to sit there and flick the switch every 15-30 seconds or so.
LOOK EVERYONE!!! This is your overunity device. Let's all start building!!!
Quite exciting new discovery resin rat, this new cell configuration shows more potential then any other device I've seen since the SM TPU. Congrats on your continuing success with these experiments. I hope the other members will soon wake up to the importance of this project. Are the redundant cells using your balanced recipe?
Thanks for keeping us updated on your progress,
~Dingus
Hi mramos and Dingus,
Sorry, but I've been gone all day and just got on now.
Dingus, the formula I used was the original formula used in the patent. 10 g of NaOH, 10ml of 20ppm Mg, 20ml of 20ppm Ag, diluted to a total volume of 100ml with DI water. The electrodes were the tungsten electrode, and the galvanized nail. All the testing I did was with fresh nails. I made up a total of 400ml of the formula and split it 200ml each in two containers. The nails had no flaws exposing the metal underneath. It is amazing to watch them regenerate so vigorously with this wiring scheme.
mramos, I have no idea at this point what the make-up of the total gasses that are being given off by the two cells. Without a headspace GC I have no way to tell at this time. I just know that Hydrogen comes off the tungsten electrode and Oxygen comes off the zinc electrode. My experiment just wanted to see if I could achieve this circuit setup. I don't know if it would run or damage an engine or not. Also, thank you very much, if you could send me a schematic of some way to switch the battery connections back and forth I would appreciate it. I am no engineer, everything I learned here in the last few days was by trial and error. The wiring that worked was arrived at after trying just about every combination I could think of. Please place the schematic on this forum for all to see. I want all the information we learn and have to be available to everyone on the planet!!!!
If you read my previous post you will see that I believe that what Dingus and I have been discussing is using a fuel cell above the electrolysis unit to power the system. So, in this way, it is a self-powering unit. The hydrogen and oxygen being given off so vigorously should have more than enough power to drive this system. I was using a 1.5 volt AA battery on mine for half a day, and it still has power to keep doing the gas generation. Obviously the system does not need much power to run.
I was just testing the unit a few hours ago. It is working perfectly, it just gets tedious changing the connections every 15-30 seconds.
That is all I have right now. I am anxious to try it on a long term test. Like for a few weeks, using your idea, dingus, to use a float that would keep the solution level constant. I want to know the best combination of switching that is needed to maintain the cell balance. This is going to take many people to try and duplicate and improve.
Please, I need anyone else to help and duplicate this work. We need ideas flowing and development happening. I am only one very busy Chemist. I don't have a lot of time to spend on this. Lucky for me this was a holiday weekend and I've been up late nights; but my wife has not been happy with me lately. She just doesn't understand that unlimited energy for the world is more important than cleaning out the garage. (lol) WOMEN!!! Got to love them!!
:D LOL!
I hope to start helping out with more than ideas and perspectives very soon (this week) and I apologize for taking so long to get started over here. Hopefully by the end of the year I can work on a prototype of the self contained redundant cell system based on your experiments and mramos's possible drive circuit designs. I don't think anyone yet understands how important this may be. Hydrogen on demand for vehicles, home power generators, no more recharging of portable devices; all from a vacuum sealed self contained unit with no moving parts. Maybe I'm being obscenely optimistic, but that kind of optimism is rare coming from me.
Congrats again to Resin, your experiments are greatly helping to solidify a conclusive test that may prove once and for all overunity is possible.
Thanks to all,
~Dingus
heres a concept sketch
Now for a quick explanation:
With the current concept cell configuration you have the output of two fuel cells that can produce .9V @ 350mA max, and one set of input wires that RR has been supplying 1.5V @ 250mA max. So the idea is to use one fuel cell for an LED load and the other to produce oxygen from the anode based on one of two mechanisms: either time intervals or by monitoring the potentials being produced at each of the inputs and outputs in the image. We'll have to do much more research before I can offer anything more exact then that.
The concept cell design is based on what I consider common sense engineering. The anode is on the bottom since part of the oxidation of the anode is flaking, and flakes lose connection with the anode and are then consumed. Each electrode has its own chamber to keep each gas separate and pure. The two electrode chambers are connected below the water line to allow conductivity in the cell but no gas can escape its respected chamber using this route. The fuel cells takes in hydrogen from the cathode chamber and oxygen from the anode chamber, the resulting water is deposited via gravity back in to the reaction chambers. Pure hydrogen and oxygen gas to the fuel cell ensures a lifetime of wattage without replacement. If the cells are put under a little vacuum pressure and they are air tight the hydrogen can not escape which will remove the need to add fuel and ensures complete safety in use.
If anyone has any questions about the layout or idea please ask.
If anyone has any suggestions or criticism please reply too!
Thanks for reading and thinking,
~Dingus
Hi everyone,
I just wanted to give a procedure for the preparation of 400ml of the cell solution. This can then be split into two containers.
Warning. Perform this preparation in a well ventilated area preferably with windows open or under a fume hood. Protect eyes with safety goggles and hands with thick latex gloves.
Procedure: The following materials were obtained:
NaOH powder (Red Devil Lye Drain Cleaner from Ace Hardware. Be sure to read the label that it is Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH). Some areas have changed its composition). WARNING Do not get on skin or in eyes. This causes burns. Or obtain Sodium Hydroxide powder from a chemical supply company.
20ppm colloidal Silver and 20ppm colloidal Magnesium. These can be obtained from most any health food store. They sell various concentrations. Just dilute to desired concentration. Example: 500ppm solution of silver purchased. We want 80ml of a 20ppm solution we want a total of:
20ppm X 80ml = 3.2ml of 500ppm solution diluted to 80ml
500ppm
Treat all the concentrations this way. That way you can buy any concentration of colloidal solution and dilute it to what you need.
Warning. Perform this preparation in a well ventilated area preferably with windows open or under a fume hood. Protect eyes with safety goggles and hands with thick latex gloves. Take a 1 pint (approx 500ml) thick-walled glass measuring container (a thin-walled glass measuring container may crack) and place it into a sink. Fill the sink with cold water until the outside of the container is half covered. This is a water bath to cool the solution. Mixing this will cause an exotherm and the solution will get very HOT. Place 200 ml of water (preferably de-ionized or distilled) into the measuring container. Carefully measure 40 grams of NaOH powder into a paper cup (warning do not get on skin or in eyes) and slowly, with careful stirring, add to the 200ml. Do this slowly and carefully. Use a plastic spoon and throw it out when you are done. Avoid breathing fumes. Mix until all solid is dissolved. This gets very HOT and the fumes can harm you (Sodium Oxide, Sodium Peroxide, and Hydrogen gases). Mix until it cools a bit, then slowly add the 80ml of the 20ppm colloidal Silver and 40ml of the colloidal magnesium. The exotherm will happen again so do it slowly. Keep it in the water bath till it cools a bit. Add more de-ionized water until the total volume in the measuring container is 400ml. This mixture can get very HOT and can burn you. Once cool you can split this into two seperate containers. CAREFUL do not get in eyes or on skin. Do not breath fumes when mixing.
I guess you can see I am concerned about your safety. PLEASE be careful. Don't do anything stupid, protect your eyes and hands and don't breath the fumes. Once it is cool, it is still dangerous to your skin or eyes.
Hi everyone,
I need help from someone who knows electronics. I need a relay to automatically cycle between three simple 1.5 volt circuits. I need to be able to control the time it spends on each circuit. For example: It spends 30 seconds on circuit A, then 40 seconds on circuit B, then 20 seconds on circuit C. Then it starts all over again with A, then again with B, etc.
This relay needs to run on a battery (1.5 volt if possible).
Any help or advice would be appreciated. I want to use this with the Linnard electrolysis system to control two cells.
For example: Cycle A would send current to the Anode in Cell 1 and the cathode in Cell 2 for 30 seconds; Cycle B would send current to the Anodes in both Cells 1 and 2 for 20 seconds; and Cycle C would send current to the Anode in Cell 2 and the cathode in Cell 1 for 40 seconds.
I think you get the idea.
Please, anyone with a way to do this please send me the information or post it here. Thank you very much.
ResinRat2
Think you would get the best/quick advice from
http://www.electronics-lab.com/forum/ (http://www.electronics-lab.com/forum/),
bunch of nice guys. See if you can get hold of Audioguru (grumpy old guy with a hell of a lot of knowledge on electronics).
Question, if you install this unit in a car, how would you prevent a backfire or something similar (flash via the intake manifold) not to ignite this mixture?
Virus ;D
ResinRat2
Think you would get the best/quick advice from
http://www.electronics-lab.com/forum/ (http://www.electronics-lab.com/forum/),
bunch of nice guys. See if you can get hold of Audioguru (grumpy old guy with a hell of a lot of knowledge on electronics).
Question, if you install this unit in a car, how would you prevent a backfire or something similar (flash via the intake manifold) not to ignite this mixture?
Virus ;D
Hi Virus,
I'll try your link, thanks.
There are really no plans to use the hydrogen produced by this unit to run an internal combustion engine. Dingus Mungus and I are focusing on using this technology to power a fuel cell and produce electricity. If this would go into an automobile then it would have to be an electric one. Or perhaps use this technology to power other electrical appliances.
This is all speculation, of course; but right now I am just trying to set up a relay to do some long term testing and prove the overunity potential of this technology.
What I really need right now is an automatic switching circuit to do the long term testing with.
Thanks for your interest.
hi..
New to this forum.. Just found it. Where can I get in touch with the folks that are developing the Split Cycle engine? I own a sailboat I would like to install one in as well as some motorcycle designs....
It is my understanding that this engine will work with any type of fuel and that the hydrogen "reactor" discussed here would provide enough.
I look forward to any replies...
Rev. John
Divine Energies Ministry (we like alternative energy devices)
Hi everyone,
Did some experimenting today. Took Linnard patent experiment #13 and replaced the zinc electrode with an aluminum one. This puppy rocks with no exotherm and no power input!!!! From a 200ml cell.
Good thing I have it going under a vent.
Enjoy!!!! ;D
Hi everyone,
The reaction with the aluminum and Tungsten-Carbide(TC) electrodes has been going on for well over 12 hours. The aluminum rods were noticably thinner so they are being consumed.
This reaction was amazing to watch because the aluminum electrodes began giving off gas even before the connection between the TC electrode could be made. Hydrogen must be coming off and consuming the aluminum:
2Al + 6H2O --> 3H2 + 2Al(OH)2
A 1.5V AA battery was connected to reverse the reaction and aluminum was regenerated on the electrode. This replated very irregularly in shape, falling off easily into the solution.
This does not seem to be a practicle way to produce hydrogen. It cannot be controlled without taking the aluminum electrodes out of the solution. This was hinted at in the patent, so I have confirmed this as well. A reversing of the battery connections resulted in the TC electrodes giving off huge amounts of hydrogen gas and the aluminum electrodes stopping gas production.
I think this experiment makes me favor the use of the zinc over the aluminum. Even though aluminum reacts more easily, it cannot be stopped as easily as the zinc reaction. The use of the zinc gives a controlled reaction.
The design of Experiment#13 looks better and better with every experiment I have run so far.
I really, really, need a switching circuit.
ResinRat2-
Anytime you place aluminum into some sodium Hydroxide you're going to get quite a reaction. The aluminum reacts violently giving off mucho hydrogen gas, creating a lot of heat and finally leaving behind black aluminum oxide in the remaining solution.
A very difficult reaction to control indeed.
Best,
Hi pg46,
Yes, the reaction of aluminum in NaOH solution was reacting very vigorously, but what was interesting is that there was NO exotherm during this reaction. This must be due to the aluminum regeneration through the magnesium colloid in this solution.
2Al+3 + 3Mgc --> 3Mg+2 + 2Al
Unfortunately it does not quite keep up with the reaction that produces Hydrogen and consumes the Aluminum; but it does help eliminate the exotherm.
I just wanted to see if this could be controlled electrically. I proved that it could, but it would take careful voltage regulation so that it would stop the hydrogen generation at the aluminum electrode and hopefully
just enough so that the hydrogen generation at the Tungsten-Carbide
electrode would be at nothing or a very minimum. I believe this could be done but not with the equipment I have at this time.
This experiment was not a waste of time. It was research into how this reaction can be influenced and possibly controlled. This technology that Linnard has developed is unique. It has many aspects that can be investigated. Just because we know that aluminum in NaOH solution will give off hydrogen does not mean this experiment was useless. I actually controlled and stopped the generation of hydrogen off the aluminum electrode with reversed energy, and by using the colloids in the solution there must have been some aluminum regeneration. I don't know how much, but it helps to extend the reaction and increase its production of gas.
I will go back to Experiment #13 as it was originally designed with a zinc electrode and work on developing the three-way, low-voltage circuit that I believe can be used to generate efficient hydrogen and oxygen gases to run a fuel cell. Dingus Mungus and I hypothesize that by controlling the hydrogen and oxygen production; and also by controlling the zinc regeneration; enough power can be produced from a fuel cell above these reactions to achieve over-unity. This is based off experimental data that shows that the battery I used for over 5 days of on and off switching of the circuits (not continuously, but intermittently over five days of switching boredom) barely showed any draining of power.
This, I believe, is worth pursuing with further research.
Thanks for your interest.
Thanks for the great updates!
I'm slightly worried though... Are you still doing this indoors?
I have most of my components now just waiting on my colloidal Mg.
I really wanted to start this weekend but its not in the cards.
:-[
Maybe this week I'll be able to do some experiments after work.
;)
Thanks for keeping us updated!
~Dingus
Hi Dingus,
The last few days out here in the Midwest we have had outdoor temperatures in the teens! Work outside? --> I don't think so.
I've kept all my experiments under a vent. I don't want to blow myself up.
Right now I am waiting on the zinc rods (they should be in on December 5th) and I am working on the switching system. I want to be able to switch between the three circuits and Pese gave me an idea how to do it. I've got almost all the parts. I also picked up a voltage-meter.
Slow and steady; progress is being made.
I see your point, but I hope your squirrel cage fan is brushless...
Great news about your pure anodes coming! Also did I read that you have already obtained pure WC samples? I'm quite excited to hear more about your latest work with the series/parallel reactors. After I do my initial time trial cell tests I will be working on the fuel cell concept...
Do you know of a common component that would allow me to easily measure the cfm of gas produced from a unit? With that measuring ability I could more easily balance the reactor with the fuel cell. That way the reactor can never produce more gas then the fuel cell can convert there by avoiding the pressurization and leaking of the reactor.
I would be interest in obtaining such a component so I could compare the out put ratios of this reactor with conventional electrolysis. I have come to the conclusion that if someone uses experiments to prove exactly how much more efficient then regular electrolysis this apuratus is, perhaps this technology can more rapidly be developed in the open source energy communities. I was hoping to hear others thoughts on ways we can further prove this technology as to intrigue new researchers in to joining the project.
Thanks again Resin,
~Dingus
Hi Dingus,
I am using Tungsten-Carbide electrodes now. I obtained them from the welding supply store. They are 2% carbide. This is the highest percentage of carbide they had with tungsten electrodes. Also I am now using a 1/8" size. Double the diameter of the old ones I was using that were pure tungsten.
Pese gave me the idea to use a tiny hobby motor with a gear to turn a small wheel that would time the connections. I am working on the design and I am obtaining parts now. It will be a bit before I get anything assembled. It will be a couple of days before the zinc anodes are in so I have some time to fiddle with this.
As far as measuring gas flow. In the lab we used to use a buret turned upside down and filled with water in a small tub or bucket. The gas would be directed into the bottom of the buret with a rubber tube. As the gas displaces the water you can time the rate. This would require you can catch all the gas generated and direct it through a rubber tube into the bottom of the buret. So you would need an airtight container to do the reaction in. I don't have anything like that set-up.
All my relevant results have been posted on this forum so far. I will continue to do this as time goes on. I will also keep you updated, Dingus, with any other relevant findings I come up with.
Good luck with your experiments. Have fun; but most of all, be SAFE!!!
;D
Ahhhh! Great idea! That way the volume is already prelabeled as well.
I should have some pics to post of my first cell this next weekend.
;D
Thanks again,
~Dingus
I am dying to hear about any updates on the testing, Even if the process used zinc on the electrode at a small rate isn't mining and creating the zinc much cheaper then pumping and refining oil?
And even if the process is too slow for on demand hydrogen for vehicles it still could be implemented for home hydrogen creation for a home fill-up of the electric fuel cell based vehicle in the garage.
I would love to be able to buy a zinc electrode and pay for water and buy the converter for my garage if it means I can run clean and free of oil company stifling technical progress.
Limiting the sales of NiMH batteries to Electric Vehicle manufacturers was the last straw.
Hi roggy32,
At this point I am still working on setting up a switching system so I can test the long term stability of the two-cell system. I plan on having it go through three or four cycles.
The first cycle will be Hydrogen off the tungsten electrode in Cell A and Oxygen off the zinc electrode in Cell B.(About 10-15 seconds.)
The second cycle will be Oxygen off the zinc electrode in Cell A and Hydrogen off the tungsten electrode in Cell B. (About 10-15 sec).
The third cycle will be Hydrogen off both tungsten electrodes in both cells. (About 5 seconds).
The fourth cycle will be Oxygen off both zinc electrodes in both cells (About 20 seconds). This will give special emphasis to the regeneration of the zinc electrode. This is the part of the reaction that appears to have the highest activation energy, and the slowest rate. It should also help to balance the chemistry of the cells. This way the zinc won't be consumed
This will be the starting parameters for testing that I plan on doing as soon as I get the switching mechanism set up. Then I hope to let it go on its own for a few weeks; then see what happens to the gas production or physical changes in the cells.
Dingus Mungus wants to add a fuel cell to see if enough power can be generated to get this puppy to run on its own. This is the goal. A self-contained unit that produces power overunity.
I will be posting results as they come in. Thanks for the interest. This stuff always takes longer than I want it to take too. :'(
Hi mramos,
YYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D :D
Thank you for the offer Mramos but I will have to do a couple of time trials before I hook up any electronics. I'm hoping to experimentally determine the best way to maintain such a cell. Many thanks for your active role in helping us close the loop on this project! I'm hoping that I will be ready to add the circuit in the next month. I just got the last of my components today from the post office. I'll be running a cell tonight but with a galvanized bolt since my pure zinc anodes are still on back order... :'(
I will post any results I find.
Thanks again to both of you!!!
Its good people like you two that make this forum work.
~Dingus
Hi mramos,
I truly appreciate your help. It's great that you were willing to take on this project with knowledge that I just don't have, and you completed it so quickly.
I will post all my results as I get them, this way everyone can learn from them and use them to their advantage. No sense repeating each others work if it isn't necessary.(Though repeating each others work may be a good idea too.)
My angle will be developing the dual-cell configuration because I want the zinc regenerating constantly; and this way there will be a constant flow of both Hydrogen and Oxygen gases. If I can show it is a system that can be maintained long-term without having to add anything (except water) then that in itself will be an advantage. I speculate that once a fuel cell is added it could possibly power itself, produce excess hydrogen if desired, and be far more efficient than old-style electrolysis; all without any exotherm! From my previous experiments I think it will take very little power to operate this system. We shall see.
Dingus's idea of a sealed unit is even more appealing. There are so many ways we could go with this. I am looking forward to finding out how this can be done. This should be FUN!!!
@Mramos
Galvanized just means zinc and heat treated exterior so it will work as a quick anode for a little while... That is until the zinc layer is removed to reveal a layer of steel that forms the core of the bolt. (then the cell is junk to me) I will be building my first open face cell tonight though! Can't stand arround waiting for the right gear anymore, and the propper anodes will be here soon. Time to dive in!
@ Resin
YES!
THIS WILL BE MUCH FUN!
BTW I'm quite excited to see how you and Mramos's combined efforts turn out. I would suggest using a similar battery to electrolylize tap water so you can compare the consumed water volumes in ratio. Good luck and I hope to hear back more from both of you soon.
This is undoubtably the best project on OU and no one knows it yet. I almost want to keep it that way till we have something solid to show people though. Some of the other threads have gone to the dogs and I'm hoping our quiet research corner will go undisturbed a bit longer.
Thanks again to both of you,
~Dingus
Sounds like you had a hell of a night...
Sorry to hear you let all the magic smoke out of your USB programmer.
:(
but on a lighter note:
Quote from: mramos on December 11, 2006, 11:13:16 PM
I am so tired I am not even going to rattle the SM coil guys tonight..
:D :D :D
Laughed my ass off when I read that.
~Dingus
@mramos,
Hey Mike, you sound like one determined guy! Whew! Too bad about the smoke.
If things went too smoothly this life would get boring real quick.(lol) ::)
Hi everyone,
Well I did some experimenting this weekend, trying to get the circuit to work that mramos sent me. It was designed to cycle between the four circuits I outlined previously in this thread. Well it did not have enough "juice" to get a desired output of gases. Mramos is working on some modifications to try next.
Just for fun, attached is the video of two cells connected to a single AA battery for a boost. This was wired to get hydrogen off both Tungsten electrodes. Its fun to watch, and shows the potential. I think its good output for a single AA battery.
Please ignore the mouthwash and dixie cup nearby. Safety was not my initial concern at this time, and I feel a little embarassed at my carelessness. Sorry people, I'll be more careful next time :-[ :-X
Hi Everyone,
I did a great deal of experimenting this weekend using Tungsten, Aluminum, copper and zinc electrodes. I was trying to see how to maintain a cell that mimicked experiment #13 of Linnard Griffin's patent. I picked this experiment because it seemed the easiest for me to try at this time. I wanted to use a base instead of an acid system just out of personal preferance.
This cell consisted of concentrated NaOH solution with magnesium and silver colloids with Tungsten/carbide and zinc electrodes. I was using 1.5 and 9 volt batteries to see how these would effect the stability of the cell. I also used NiCad batteries (1.5V) to see if the cell would recharge the batteries during switching of the connections.
Experiment #1 consisted of a duplicate of experiment #13 with switching of the battery connections to see how the cell was affected. I used a 1.5 volt battery and found that whatever electrode the negative side of the battery was connected to would give off gas very vigorously. As the test went on the battery voltage would drop initially on each connection, then would slowly rise again as the gas production began to slow (about 10-180 seconds range). I kept switching the connections (+ and - connections of the battery) as each connection voltage returned to 1.2volts. Eventually the tungsten electrode would get a plating on it which seemed to require more and more time to produce gas. Eventually the battery voltage would drop below 1.25 volts (approx.) which then seemed to inhibit the production of gas to the point where no gas was produced from either electrode. The battery itself (alkaline) would become very warm over time.
I repeated this experiment at least three times and confirmed this happening each time. A layer of reddish precipitate would form at the bottom of the cell over time (Silver? Magnesium? Zinc? Tungsten?).
When a NiCad battery was used the voltage would also go up and down as well. It did not seem to last as long as the alkaline battery but it still got warm.
Experiment #2 took the cell from Experiment #1 and replaced the zinc electrode with a copper electrode I made from twisting about 6 feet of stripped copper wire. The purpose of the experiment was to see how dissolved zinc (zinc oxide) in the cell would replate on the copper electrode. Dingus Mungus mentioned to me that Dr. Griffin used the copper electrode (supposedly inert to the reaction in the cell) to replate zinc on. I applied a current from a 1.5Volt Alkaline battery (negative to the copper electrode, positive to the tungsten) and watched as the zinc replated on the copper electrode, turning the electrode grayish in color as if by magic. I then continued to switch the connections of the battery again as in experiment #1. Observing as gas poured off each electrode as the connection was switched. Again the same thing happened as in experiment #1 with the battery eventually being depleted below 1.25V (approx). I then switched to a 9 volt battery and began switching connections again until again the reaction slowed at each switching of the connections and eventually stopped.
After the cell sat overnight the entire cell was reddish in color. The tungsten electrode as well as the bottom of the cell (precipitate) and the color of the solution. A fresh 1.5V alkaline battery did not seem to affect it much. Neither did a 9 Volt. I declared it dead but just for kicks I tried Experiment #3
Experiment #3 took the dead cell of Experiment #2 and replaced the copper electrode with an aluminum one. I wanted to see if the aluminum reaction could be controlled in some useful way.
The aluminum immediately began to give off gas as it was immersed in the NaOH solution. Which is what I saw from previous experiments. This is aluminum oxidizing and giving off Hydrogen. This reaction would continue until the aluminum was gone but I attached it by a wire to the tungsten electrode. Both eventually began to give off gas. Most likely hydrogen from both as the aluminum oxidized and the aluminum electrode shrunk over 12 hours of time. The reddish color completely precipitated at the bottom of the cell and after adding a battery and switching connections to accelerate the gas production, a grayish coating plated on the aluminum. (Zinc? Aluminum Oxide?).
This grey coating conglomerated around the electrode and floated to the top surface of the liquid level. This cell was a mess with red precipitate at the bottom, coatings on both electrodes, and grey conglomerate floating on top of the cell.
This makes me question the stability of the system.
Some conclusions:
:The cell of Experiment #13 of the patent seems to work fine as long as no voltage is applied to the system. The cell will give off gas at a very slow rate until the zinc electrode is depleted. The use of battery voltage can replate the zinc onto the zinc electrode and produce oxygen but this depletes a battery and can cause the tungsten-carbide electrode to get a coating on it (zinc?) that seems to eventurally destroy the stability of the cell. The switching of the connections of the battery to alternately produce hydrogen then oxygen seems to eventually hurt the cell stability.
:The use of a copper electrode seems to work at first to replate zinc, but the electrode seems to destroy the integrity of the cell if left overnight in the solution. The whole cell becomes contaminated with reddish precipitate that sticks to the tungsten electrode as well. The cell did not last long after that.
:The use of an aluminum electrode is difficult to control. The reaction never stops unless a voltage is applied to the system, thus stopping the production of hydrogen off the aluminum electrode, but accelerating the production off the tungsten electrode at the same time. Aluminum goes on its own, but if the aluminum kept being added to the cell as it was depleted the OH- ions would eventually be depleted and the reaction would slow or even stop. This goes for the zinc electrode as well.
:The application of voltage to the system with an alkaline or NiCad battery can accelerate the gas production, but it also seems to hurt the stability of the cell. Causing precipitation of reddish precipitate and the eventual plating of the tungsten electrode. Eventually the battery voltage drops below its ability to keep the system production of gas. The cell dies.
:The patent Experiment #13 may not be the best or most stable system to experiment with. It seems very easy to destroy the cell's stability and the gas production goes at a very disappointing rate without the addition of external battery current. This results in the eventual depleting of the cell, and it no longer produces gas.
This will end my investigation into the patent Experiment #13 as a long-term system for the production of hydrogen. I will look over the patent and see which experiment looks promising for me to try next. I just wanted to report my results for others to see.
Please make suggestions or comments if you can. I would appreciate any one else's input or observations.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
I have recently found similar results in my miniture cell replications, and due to my inability to leave the cell running while I'm not working with it, most of my cells lasted 1-3 days before contamination ruined the cell. I've also recently read online that Zinc will disolve in a base liquid and form Zn(OH)2. So I've been looking for a new anode myself... The electronegitivities of each active metal show the potential structure of the cell, and I'm just looking for more stable metals to replace the zinc and silver.
Quite unfortunate this patent isn't living up to its observations...
Hi Dingus,
I know it seems the patent is not living up to your initial expectations but it is just like when I have been involved in patents at work. The patent gives just enough information to try to cover as wide and general area of the subject as possible. This usually means the exact way a patent describes a process does not necessarily give a good outcome. That also means it is not necessarily able to be duplicated as described either.
Beginning in paragraph (0139) of the patent it begins to described the most preferred components of the cell. This is probably a good place to start, and try to find an experiment that comes close to the preferred components. Components including:
:Basic solution: aqueous NaOH solution of at least 2.5 Molar concentration; or Acidic solution of H2SO4 or HCL of at least 1.0 Molar contration.
:The first colloid preferrably silver colloid.
:The Cathode preferrably Tungsten-Carbide with a surface area greater than the
Anode.
:The Anode is aluminum or a mixture of aluminum and other less reactive metals.
:The second colloid is a metal of higher reactivity than the anode and cathode. Most
probably Aluminum or Magnesium
:An ionic salt with a metal less reactive than the anode. Probably zinc sulfate or zinc
chloride or cobalt(II)sulfate or cobalt(II)Chloride.
:A power source of not less than 12 volts DC current which is used to regenerate the
anode or to increase hydrogen production.
This may be good starting points, the best of which seem to conform most closely to experiment #22 of the patent. This is in acidic medium with tungsten and aluminum electrodes and zinc heptahydrate ionic salt with silver and magnesium colloids. My experience with testing experiment #13 gives me some insight on the problems of maintaining the cell. This means that no power should be added to the cell until the anode needs to be regenerated. Otherwise leave it alone and let it produce the hydrogen by itself. This may give a reaction vigorous enough to produce a good acceptable stream of hydrogen on its own which can be started and stopped by connecting the anode and cathode with a copper wire.
This is probably where I will begin the next phase of experiments. Though I may give experiment #13 one more try with mramos's enhanced circuit that he will be sending me. I would rather use NaOH solution than an acid solution that tends to have a more disagreeable odor.
Thanks Dingus, for helping to confirm some of my results.
Hi Mramos,
I wonder if the higher voltage is related to the quality of the replating of the anode. Do you know if a different quality of replating would result from using a higher voltage(12V) than a lower voltage of say 1.5 to 3 volts? I have never plated a metal out before this. Does anyone know if it matters?
Dr. Griffin doesn't elaborate on why he recommends 12V minimum of DC current.
He says in the patent the electrolysis should run under its own power with the DC current used to regenerate the anode or enhance the reaction rate. That's all he really says about it.
I was hoping to test this using low voltage so let's just leave it at your present settings of 3V max and let me see if this works. Just send the circuit as is because I really don't want to go higher unless I have to.
Thanks for all your help
Dave
Mike,
200 volt boost!!!! :o HOLY TOLEDO!!!!!
That's one way to push it over the edge. (LOL)
UUUHHHMMM! I think I'll stick with what you got right now. This is supposed to be low voltage electrolysis.
Thanks for all your help. Send the bill to Dingus ;)(lol)
"just kidding"
Dave
Hi Mike,
I saw these frequencies listed at this link:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1792.0.html
2025Hz - Proton Precession/Water Resonance
42800Hz - Aetheric Dissociation/Water Resonance.
I don't know if these mean anything or are even accurate. Just thought I would pass it along.
Dave
I would be proud to flip the bill for either of you fine gentelmen! LOL!
I can understand how the patent may be incomplete or only suggestive, but I was disapointed that I was unable to replicate a cell which can self run for 100 hours. So far I've only conducted a limitted amount of real research on this cell so I'm not in any way throwing in the towel, but I was little disappointed at the short life span we both seem to have observed. Also I will be conduction some electroplating experiments when I get home from my trip.
Gotta go...
Be back soon enough.
Hi Mike,
Do you just have stainless steel electrodes in yours? What kind of temps do you pull?
Thanks for your help.
Hi Mike,
I figured you were using plates. This helps a great deal in getting off more hydrogen. I could only imagine what this present cell I built would give off if I used plates instead of electrodes. Very interesting that you don't create enough heat to boil the water.
The aluminum/copper/lye cell sounds strange. I put aluminum in my cell with the NaOH(lye) solution and I get an immediate reaction that won't stop giving off hydrogen until the aluminum is gone. I don't need a bit of added power to make it work; but of course mine uses up the aluminum. Makes me wonder how you controlled that reaction. Very interesting.
Thanks for the info.
Dave
Hello everybody
Estremely exciting results nice work , I just found this topic the funny thing Stefan is that i don't remember if I saw video from doctor griffin on this website , but I'm quite sure I saw valuable video of him exploding hydrogen and the most impresive with the go cart using a transparent box full of chemicals powering it directly, i do remember the fact that one of the conducts got loose during the drive from a warehouse to a backyard it was exciting to see the rate of hydrogen production. I discarded the idea of making one of this cells due to chemicals hazards but after trying many other things .......this seems to be the most achievable way to create energy , what would be required to power up a house??
I couldn't find him on google , please confirm
merry christmas
Hi Everyone,
Here is a link to a story on AirGen. This is Dr. Linnard Griffin's company.
Check out the demonstration unit.
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=11039
Perhaps he is a bit ahead of the game, don't you think? This story came out in February of this year.
Hydrogen economy here we come.
Hi Dingus,
I was thinking about you being disappointed on your cell not running for a long period of time ( 100 hours like the patent ) but the truth of the matter is that I am absolutely sure the cell of experiment #13 will easily run for 100 hours if you use a pure zinc anode. Just set it up as described and let it go. Add water if you need it but it will run. Just put a cover over it (not air tight) and connect the wires and watch it go. It goes at a slow rate, but I am going to repeat mine with a large surface area of Tungsten/carbide electrodes. As many as I have all connected together.
The reason my previous cell failed was because I was using galvanized nails ( just like you and galvanized bolts ). Once the coating was gone the cell started to be altered by the exposed metal (maybe nickel. Who knows what it was). Wait for your pure zinc anode and then give it a long term try. I will do that as well.
Heck, I bet if I built a cell like that shown in the story above and connect it to a fuel cell with a small fan that I could get it to run for days just like his. It must be a slow rate of hydrogen production because otherwise the water would be driven off too fast. According to the story nothing was added to the cell for that period of time.
I guess it's time for me to cough up the money for a fuel cell. I'll keep you posted.
Dave
Hi Mike,
I saw the drawing of your electrolysis cell. Very nice and simple. Sorry, I have no idea how you can boost the output except surface area; but wouldn't that draw more power? I am no cell building expert. This is my first experience building an electrolysis cell.
I think if you add a salt to the water you will get better conduction. Heck, try NaCl. Just ordinary table salt. See if this boosts your output. Very low chlorine content and I doubt it would damage your stainless steel at all. This is just a guess though. Simple to try. You can rinse it out if it doesn't work. It's cheap and readily available.
Adding acids or bases other than your low concetration of lime juice might cause some type of damage. Maybe not. Stainless steel is pretty rugged. We use high pressure reactors at work for polymer synthesis and some of the formulas have high acid content. The stainless holds up very well.
That's all I can think of at the moment.
Have a Merry and Blessed Christmas everyone!!!
Dave
Dave
Look here :
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1841.0.html
Gustav
Hi Pese,
I've seen plenty on the Joe Cell before. The things I like better about this Linnard Griffin process is the low voltage and temp.
I am putting together a "Control Cell" just for a reference. It will be an exact replication of experiment #13 with the correct electrodes and colloid concentrations as outlined in the patent. This one I will not alter in any way. Nor will I add DC power to it. I will just add water (de-ionized) to it to keep the liquid level steady. Let's see how long it goes and what happens to it. I'll throw in as many tungsten-carbide electrodes as I have just to maximize the hydrogen output. My goal is to exceed 100 hours of operation. Then let it go as long as I can and see what happens to the cell.
EDIT: Started the cell today (12/26/2006) at 10:00AM United States Central Time. Nice slow steady rate. Using 7 tungsten (1/8") electrodes and One (3/8" X 6") Zinc electrode. Going to let it run until it stops. Only going to add DI water each day to maintain the liquid level. *Voltage=0.837V
Update: (12/27/2006)9:30PM United States Central Time (35.5 hours elapsed) Still going the same rate. Short video. I tapped to get the bubbles going sideways. This is the rate it has been going the whole time. Not dramatic but slow and steady. No power added. *Voltage=0.829V
Update: (12/28/2006) 10:00PM United States Central Time (60.0 hours total elapsed) No change in appearance or rate. Except for some white residue on the upper part of the tungsten electrode. *Voltage=0.827V
Update: (12/29/2006) 9:45PM United States Central Time (83Hours 45min total elapsed time). The rate has visually appeared to remain the same. *Voltage=0.827V. A short video is attached. I will end this experiment at 100 hours (This will duplicate the patent results) and begin testing the two cell, DC circuit that mramos sent me.
Update: (12/30/2006) 2:00PM United States Central Time 100 hours total elapsed time. Rate has not changed. *Voltage=0.827V. I will now end this experiment. I have duplicated the patent results over a 100 hour period of time. The zinc electrode is barely worn, and the cell looks fine. It looks as if it can keep going and going.
*I added some voltage data taken during the experiment. The wiring across the electrodes was removed and each cell was allowed to relax for 5 minutes. Then a voltage across the electrodes was taken.
@ Mramos
If I'm not mistaken you need a flash arrestor not a check valve. A check valve allows gas to only pass in one direction but doesn't prevent flash back in the system. I looked arround for a bit and here are some options I have found.
Best price I could find
http://www.hionsolar.com/n-comp.htm
Made for larger gas molecules but should still work well for you
http://store.cyberweld.com/flarandchva.html
http://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/weldingdepot/DG-A.html
Expensive as hell but state of the art in hydrogen safty valves
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=Item/cat=35/product=964
Are you planning to recycle the exhaust to the electrolyzer also?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi:
To all , happy new year ,about to go on vacations myself again but anxious about coming back to experiment directly with the more reactive formulas I found again what
Stefan so conveniently had posted before in another related forum, take a look at this I hope Resinrat you are able to do this first , because I'm no expert at chemistry at all.......but this videos are spectacular ,just to save you time looking for the link:
http://www.harti.com/griffin/
Good luck to all.
Thanks K,
I've seen all these already. I think if you are looking for a more reactive experiment then experiment #22 in the patent might be a good try. It is described as almost "uncontrollable".
I am going to do a variation of it in the future but I want to avoid the acid approach. I prefer using strong base like NaOH because it doesn't have the unpleasant odor of the acids. Especially when I am doing these experiments at my home location. All I need is extra chlorine or sulfur odor to add fuel to an already agitated wife. (lol)
Mine has been going 72 hours now and still has not changed (visually) in gas production. Once I prove this "control" experiment is stable past 100 hours then I will begin experimenting with an DC circuit that mramos is sending me. Then I plan on adding a fuel cell to the mix (like Dingus Mungus's idea ) and see if we get a self-powered hydrogen-fuel cell unit that is overunity and has some decent output.
I don't have any plans to "burn" hydrogen. The goal here is a unit that produces electricity overunity, and recycles the water back into itself.
Have a happy and safe New Year everyone.
Hi everyone,
Quoted from post #181 on 12/30/2006:
Update: (12/30/2006) 2:00PM United States Central Time 100 hours total elapsed time. Rate has not changed. *Voltage=0.827V. I will now end this experiment. I have duplicated the patent results over a 100 hour period of time. The zinc electrode is barely worn, and the cell looks fine. It looks as if it can keep going and going.
*I added some voltage data taken during the experiment. The wiring across the electrodes was removed and each cell was allowed to relax for 5 minutes. Then a voltage across the electrodes was taken.
Resinr
There is so much to read and understand in the patent , thank you for the suggestion
but this is another part I don't completely get, and is the use of the battery ,ok overunity would recharge the battery ,and then
how long to "regenerate " the system??
would that be practical ?
say running a house on storage battery power in the meantime?.....
then ,water ....but for what I understood again, this is not a closed cycle or self sustainable device, some metals would have to be replaced in time? as well as keeping and eye on water level .
Theoretically if overunity is achieved then that would be the lesser problem, but is it possible to draw that much electricity out of a chemical reaction??
.......and how expensive anyway would be to cover the cost of metal and water supply??
How big such a device have to be build to power something in a practical way? .....a big tank of quemicals on the roof top or the basement for example?
Sorry just very curious here I spent one morning starting at 3 am reading the patent
Cheers
Hi K,
I will try to answer all your questions to the best of my ability.
Resinr
There is so much to read and understand in the patent , thank you for the suggestion ? No problem, I hope big groups of other people start experimenting with the stuff on the patent. Then they can post it here and help us all.
but this is another part I don't completely get, and is the use of the battery ,ok overunity would recharge the battery ,and then
how long to "regenerate " the system??
would that be practical ?
say running a house on storage battery power in the meantime?.....
If you look back at a previous post in this thread you will see a diagram of a couple of circuits I drew out that will allow the ability to control the production of Hydrogen and Oxygen gasses; and also the regeneration of the zinc electrode. (Page 7 reply#122)The idea is to use two cells wired together. One produces Hydrogen and the other produces Oxygen while regenerating the zinc anode. This is to go for about 15 seconds or so, then the polarity switches and the Hydrogen and Oxygen are produced in the opposite cells. By continually switching between these circuits, this allows the continual production of both gasses, and the continual regeneration of the zinc at the same time. So there should theoretically be no down time. This was thanks to Dingus Mungus's idea on Page 7 Reply #127.
then ,water ....but for what I understood again, this is not a closed cycle or self sustainable device, some metals would have to be replaced in time? as well as keeping and eye on water level .The ultimate goal is a sealed unit. (Dingus Mungus's idea Page7 Reply #127)All gasses are put through the fuel cell that produces electricity and recycles the water and heat. The reactions in the cell will theoretically regenerate the metal colloids also. So the water level, colloids, and metals all regenerate and recycle. Theoretically, since it is an endothermic reaction, all energy to power the unit will come from the ambient temperature outside the unit. This is the ultimate goal.
Theoretically if overunity is achieved then that would be the lesser problem, but is it possible to draw that much electricity out of a chemical reaction?? It should theoretically be scalable to any size we need. We humans are resourceful when not encumbered by nosey bureaucrats with greedy fingers.
.......and how expensive anyway would be to cover the cost of metal and water supply??
The metals and water should be cheap in comparison to oil based systems. If this works it should be economically viable.
How big such a device have to be build to power something in a practical way? .....a big tank of quemicals on the roof top or the basement for example?That is to be determined by further Research and Development. Sounds like fun. How about you jump in too?
Sorry just very curious here I spent one morning starting at 3 am reading the patent
No need to apologize. At 3:00 in the morning all I can do is get up, go into the John, pass gas and burp. You have my admiration.
Thanks for your interest. I look forward to your contributions.
RR
Thank you ,really for taking the time on pondering about this I think this questionare is going to be very usefull to us all
I'm quite sure your grey matter is high quality so it won't be swollen for long time ;D
Yes I'll jump in trying to determine size of such a device and also my approach is going to be now to make electricity without explosive alternatives,
Hi all,
Got a really neat piece of glassware that we were going to dispose of at work. This thing must be at least a few decades old. I snatched it up to use it for a volume-gas generation study at home. Experiment #13 (of course) from Dr. Griffin's patent bubbled into a glass by water displacement in a bucket. 2/3 of a cup over a 12 minute period. That calculates to about:
2/3cup X Pint X Quart X Gal. X 3785ml = 13.1ml
12 min 2cups 2pints 4Quarts Gallon min.
Not a very fast rate, but no power added to it. This should be enough to power a small fuel cell and regenerate a battery. Then use the battery to regenerate the zinc electrode. Over 100 hours that's approximately:
13.1ml X 1 Liter X 60min X 100 hours = 78.6 Liters of Gas generated.
min 1000ml hour
I put a match to the gas and got a neat "POOOOFFFFF!" Must be all hydrogen.
The next step is the fuel cell, which for me should be arriving on the 15th.
Here's a pic of the neat gas measuring apparatus:
Hi ResinRat,
looks very nice.
I had no time to play with it yet.
Please keep us updated with all your work.
Many thanks and looking forward
to see your fuel cell setups with it.
Many thanks again.
Regards, Stefan.
Awesome glass ware! ;D
Thanks for the gas rate example! What size anode and cathode?
I've been playing catch up since the hollidays, but I plan to stock up on components soon for a another experiment. Thanks for the great update!
~Dingus
Hi Dingus,
The anode is a 3/8" X 6" zinc rod that I purchased from boatzincs.com and the cathode is comprised of nineteen 1/8" X 7"- 2% Thoriated Tungsten electrodes wrapped together and tightly bound. These I purchased from a welding supply store nearby. I wanted to get as much surface area as I could with the cathode to boost the hydrogen production. The NaOH solution immerses the anode and cathode with a depth of 5" from the bottom of the glass apparatus. The total liquid volume is approximately 300 ml.
I will be working to add the hydrogen cell as soon as my wife picks it up from my mailbox. That should be tonight. I'm not sure how I will put it all together yet but it should be fun.
Thanks Stefan and Chris for the kind words. I really hope what I am doing can help others in getting this technology developed and spread.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Hi Everyone,
I have some pictures of the fuel cell so you can see what it looks like. I just need to read the instructions and see how I can hook these two together.
Fuel Cell Specs: (Fuel Cell Eco H2/Air)
80x80x48 mm
180 g. Weight - 16cm2 electrode area
300mW Power
0.4-0.96V Generated voltage.
Thanks for your interest.
Very interesting read from the first post to the last one .. it took me a few days.
A few points/observations
KOH or NaOH when in contact will give off Hydroxy at an uncontroled rate. I know as I use KOH in my setup for just plain electrolysis. Powered draino has Al flakes in it, you can take liquid plumber and cover an Al pop can and watch what happens massive amounts of hydrogen and oxygen but no way of controling it.
The reason why you get more Hydrogen/Oxygen when you apply a battery/voltage accross the anode and cathode is you are causing brute force electrolysis.
To get the voltage up in the cell to 12volts build a cell like you would a battery +-+-+-+- etc using each anode/cathode as 1.2 / 1.5 volts.
A NiMah battery needs to have a certain frequency/regulator tied to the circuit to charge it ... I would use a simple lead acid battery .. ie. emergency light pack or from a ups.
I would almost place the zinc plate on the bottom maybe ontop of a piece of stainless steel mesh and tie the connection to the SS mesh. That way when the zinc oxidizes it will just fall to the plate at the bottom .. or maybe do not let the zinc anode deplete completely or maybe both.
The switching circuit is an awesome idea and there should be no reason for it not to work. One could almost use a load on the circuit ie. a led light or something and the switching circuit to charge a different battery using diodes for the one way or something along that way .. switch the led on off at a high rate the eye won't tell.
I think when you have the copper rod in the solution it will probably plate itself with the silver and zinc together.
The chemecal equalibrium can certainly be achieved using experiment#13 ... I will be trying it this weekend .. though only thing I need to find is some coloidal silver and magnisium ... I hope one of these health stores will have it.
Thanks for the specifics of your electrodes. Do you have a way of weighting your anode? Perhaps the scale you're using to measure your NaOH. Showing the mass lost over gas produced could even further prove its overunity status.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on January 15, 2007, 06:44:37 PM
I will be working to add the hydrogen cell as soon as my wife picks it up from my mailbox. That should be tonight. I'm not sure how I will put it all together yet but it should be fun.
Be careful to seperate your hydrogen and prefill its connection hose with hydrogen before connecting it to the PEM's H2 input. Are you planning on storing power from the PEM in cap bank for a reduction cycle or using it to power a load of some sort? I've been eyeing those PEM model car kits since Christmas. :D First I plan on doing more material research with my next order. Lots of stainless steel and WC rods and a adjustable DC power supply Mramos pointed me twards.
With the data from your last experiment and some of my results its obvious to me that a long term H2 on demand device that uses infrequent reduction cycles is possible. I believe that using a third electrode composed of stainless steel grade 316 as the anode of the reduction cycle will prevent the deterioration of the tungsten electrode and contanimation of the cell. I'm ordering pure components this week. I think we're close to building the "Over unity cell" we've all been discussing these last few months.
Good luck with the PEM experiments! I can't wait to hear if you can pull max wattage out of it.
~Dingus
Hi nickle989,
Thanks for your input. I would say that if you have an idea of how to design a circuit that uses a load and charges a battery then please post a diagram of your idea. I would be very interested in building a circuit that looks like it might accomplish this. I will take your advice on using a lead-acid battery to be charged, unless you can show a circuit that would do this for a NiMah or NiCad battery. This is what I would really want.
As far as the plating of zinc goes, earlier in this thread Dingus Mungus shows a design that could be used for the replating of the zinc that goes along the lines you suggested: the idea of a connection at the bottom of the cell that would keep the flaked zinc in electrical contact with the system. This is a good idea; but I was hoping to use the electrical circuit to regenerate the zinc often enough so that only a thin layer would be replated at a time, that way it would be less likely to flake off. (That's my theory anyway.)
You should have no problem finding magnesium and silver colloids at health food stores, they are common items.
I tried to balance the system chemically earlier in this thread. I began to hurt the hydrogen production rate, and started to form a precipitate so the cell solubility was altered as well. I would be very interested to see if you can have better results. I am always open to suggestions and I hope you can have a breakthrough. Please post your results here so we can all see.
Hi Chris,
You are going to laugh but the way I have been weighing out my NaOH is by using a ruler with a round pencil taped to its bottom at the balance point with a dixie cup on each end of the ruler. When resting on a table it is balanced. Here is the trick. An American penny minted before 1982 weighs 3.1 grams (approx). A penny minted in 1982 and afterwards weighs 2.5 grams (approx). So I place 40grams/2.5grams per penny = 16 pennies in one cup and add enough NaOH to the other cup to balance. This is my home scale :D. I don't have any fancy expensive Mettler balances as home. So I don't think I will be weighing my anode anytime soon.
I think initially I will be using the fuel cell to power a load. I have a small propeller motor I purchased with the fuel cell. I hope to show this running on the hydrogen cell as it is producing gas. In the future I hope to charge up batteries for zinc regeneration. One step at a time though.I also think your idea of using a stainless 316 electrode for zinc regeneration is a great idea to try. Let me know how it goes.
Also, could you tell me what adjustable DC power supply mramos suggested to you? I may be interested in that too.
I have noticed that I will need to order the right size hoses to fit the fuel cell, so results for me will be delayed for a bit. I am sorry, but I didn't know what I would need to hook these things together. I am learning as I go so have patience with me everyone.
Thanks for your interest.
Hey... A scale is a scale... LOL! :D
My current power supplies are 12V-2A, 9V-1.5A, and 5.6V-.65mA phone chargers.
http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/8173
With this PSU I should be able to determine the best voltage for Zn reduction.
(my current plating is fragile and loose... too much wattage I think)
I still need some solid zinc rods but I'm ordering from a new supplier this time.
Also I'm picking up some 5-10 mesh Tungsten carbide pellets or ingot. (<surface area)
Thanks for the best wishes, and the same goes to you in your PEM experiments.
I know we're close now,
~Dingus
Hi Everyone,
Well, there are a few conclusions I have arrived at over the last couple of days, and I must say it is a good thing I was delayed by needing to order hoses for the fuel cell. Even though my fancy glass reactor looks cool and I would love to use it with the fuel cell, I think the design will not work properly in this case. The reason for this is because I have been observing the reaction in the cell and even though it seems just hydrogen is being produced, I can see the gas on the zinc electrode slowly coming off, and gas bubbles also rising off the zinc precipitate on the bottom of the reactor. It is my understanding that oxygen entering the hydrogen side of the fuel cell will damage the cell and eventually cause it to no longer function. This tells me I need a completely new set-up to use a fuel cell with. I need to be sure the hydrogen and oxygen are not mixed. This is not possible in the present glass reactor.
Looking back in this thread, Dingus Mungus posted a cell concept (picture is at the bottom of this post.)
I am thinking of building a reactor off his concept design using clear PVC pipe. This idea will use a separate tube for each electrode so I can be sure the gases do not mix; then only use the pure hydrogen on the fuel cell. As long as the PVC piping is resistant to the NaOH solution, I think it will work. I am not sure of that though. I have not found information that answers this question yet.
So there will be another delay until I build a concept reactor. No sense ruining the fuel cell now just to get some data and pretend like I am accomplishing something.
Thanks for your interest.
Nonetheless your effort is apreciated so we don't make a mistake,
Is probably to early for this question but do you have and idea if the battery will use less energy to regenerate the reaction than to recharge itself?
Hi K,
At this point there is no way to tell the amount of energy needed to periodically regenerate the zinc electrode. There are a few variables still unknown. How efficient is the fuel cell? Will it be able to handle all the hydrogen produced without building up pressure? What volume of hydrogen is required to keep the fuel cell at maximum output? Do we need a fuel cell stack? How efficiently can we charge a battery to use for periodic zinc regeneration? What is the minimum time and electrical energy needed to keep the zinc from being depleted? I'm sure there are many other variables to add to these, so there is still a great deal of work that needs to be done.
This is going to take some time to work out, but it sounds like an interesting challenge to me. I really wanted to get the fuel cell going, but I think it needs a bit more development before this will happen.
I emailed the PVC company to get information on NaOH resistance. I need to do this before I buy even one part.
Sorry, but that is all I can think of at this point. Let me know if you have any ideas.
Thanks
Quote from: ResinRat2 on January 17, 2007, 12:49:41 PM
I emailed the PVC company to get information on NaOH resistance. I need to do this before I buy even one part.
http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/h-o/chemchrt.htm
Hi Dingus,
Thanks for the info. The NaOH solution will be at a concentration of 10%. Much lower than the 50% on the chart, but this doesn't look like good news. The company that makes the piping hasn't contacted me back yet. I am interested to hear what they say; but I think I will need to look for alternatives. Maybe even a custom-made piece of glassware.
Oh well, just another problem to analyze and overcome.
Thanks again.
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/search.asp?search=Polypropylene&x=3&y=13
Just a link to help shove ya in the right direction... ;D
There are lots of cheap and easy to work with plastics, but Polypropylene is almost as standard as PVC and it comes in clear. Custom glass reactors are a long way off in the future. There is still lots to learn! Why waste money on a fancy case?
Glad to hear you're so close to sealing a cell for the first time. Should be a great demo.
BTW is your PEM (H2+O2) or (H2+Air)?
~Dingus
Hi Chris,
Fuel Cell Specs: (Fuel Cell Eco H2/Air)
80x80x48 mm
180 g. Weight - 16cm2 electrode area
300mW Power
0.4-0.96V Generated voltage.
I wasn't sure how to handle the oxygen generation at this point, so I chose the Air cell. I can always change things later.
I believe I have found a configuration that mimicks your reactor idea. I will post a picture once I get it drawn up. It will use simple laboratory glassware. Not terribly expensive; probably less than $100 .
Dave
Hi Dingus,
OK, here we go. I did a quick hand-drawing of a concept to mimic your reactor. One bottle has the tungsten electrodes and the other has the zinc. This way the gases can be collected seperately. The solution is joined at the bottom through the aspirator openings and the "T" allows the funnel to drain the water back into the system from the fuel cell. The system is closed except at the funnel opening.
I figure two of these can be joined to use the circuit.
The drawing is crude and it is just a concept at this point. Should be about a hundred bucks. I am ordering the parts probably today or tommorrow.
Looks damn good!
I'm quite excited to see what you come up with. I think the biggest problem you're going to face is the posibility of pressure building in the h2 half of the cell dropping the water level. Outside of that though the design looks flawless. I think you're going to be quite pleased with the fuel cells performance, its a little less power then a AA battery but it'll reduce zinc or run a small DC motor with no problems. Thanks for keeping us all updated as often as possible.
BTW I bought a car this week so now getting supplies should be a whole lot easier.
;)
~Dingus
Hi Chris,
A representative from Alsco (www.clearpvcpipe.com) contacted me and informed me that their pipe will be able to withstand up to a 50% concentration of NaOH as long as the temperature of the liquid does not reach 140?F. So it should easily be able to handle a 10% concentration of NaOH in water like the experiment requires. This is GOOD NEWS.
So maybe building it out of this material may be a good idea afterall. I think it will be cheaper than the previous apparatus; but I need to find out for sure. If you have time, maybe you could help design the apparatus. The materials and costs are on their website.
my electrodes are 7" high tungsten and 6" high zinc rods. The rest is up in the air. I guess I could even cut the electrodes any length that is needed.
You designed the original concept so maybe you could help design the first prototype? What do you say buddy, it should be a snap for you. I would even be willing to fund the purchase of the materials. Heck I would even be willing to pay for one for you if you want it. This is no joke! I want to see this idea developed. Use that program you used to draw up the original concept and design a Clear PVC model for experimental testing.
Draw something up, make a list of the materials and cost, let's add it up and see what is the better way to go. I'll try and do the same for the one I hand-drew and we'll compare costs. What do you say? Let me know what you think. Unless you want to try something else? Just take a few days and decide, then let me know.
Thanks again,
Dave
P.S. BTW, congrats on the car. Hope you like it.
Thanks RR
That gets that out of my sweating system ???
One thing I do remember : in the link to griffin's company it says that a system is due for the market, and shows a small translucent like battery powering a small fan so yes somehow is going to work.
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?"
Hi K,
This is my thinking on the whole idea so you can see where I am coming from.
Based off my previous experiments I find evidence that it won't take very much power to regenerate the zinc in the cell. If you read the thread way back you will see that I believe the circuit required to cycle through the regeneration will not require much power, and the energy needed for the zinc regeneration will easily be obtained by the fuel cell. The trouble is we were never able to perform a long term test of this idea. This is because we had no apparatus with an automatic switching system that would cycle through the circuits over a period of weeks. I cannot physically sit at a chair and keep switching circuits every 15-20 seconds for days on end; and unless this is done we will never see if this can be overunity or not.
So in order to test the overunity of the system we first need to build an apparatus to test, then we need the circuit to switch. The drawings here depict an apparatus. Once that is built and tested to work then the circuit has to be built and tested. The circuit is now under construction by mramos. Once he finishes it, and the apparatus is built, then the long term testing can begin. I mean over a period of several WEEKS in constant operation.
That is the goal for now. Because of the catalysts in this system it is unlike any other electrolysis that has been performed before. The catalysts lower the activation energy required to perform the electrolysis. That is why it is low voltage, and that is why it has the potential to be overunity. Hydrogen has a high energy potential, and because of this energy in a gaseous state, it can be utilized by the fuel cell to produce electricity. Far more efficiently than by burning it. The added bonus is that all the other parts of the hydrogen cell will then be recycled and regenerated.
I believe this has potential for these reasons; and that is why I am willing to fund and put in effort on this project. This is for the world to see, not just us here in this forum. So now that we all are clear on how I feel about this project, let's just all get on with our work and try and better the world for the future and the future of our families.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on January 18, 2007, 08:01:28 PM
I believe this has potential for these reasons; and that is why I am willing to fund and put in effort on this project. This is for the world to see, not just us here in this forum. So now that we all are clear on how I feel about this project, let's just all get on with our work and try and better the world for the future and the future of our families.
DITTO!!! ;D
Resin,
I'll look arround this weekend and even swing by a lowes or home depot. Hopefully I can work out a design that will still allow for further developement later, but I'm going to have to order some custom ss316 sputter plates (1/4"x1" discs). So I might have to send you some required components. Also I'm planning on ording a pound or two of WC sinter... Lots of surface area that way, and based on your latest results I believe that cathode surface area is key in this process. Any who... I'll draw up a rough draft tonight and follow it up with a 'to scale' design by monday. Altho I know for a fact that PVC can not be our final solution since heat is our ally and fuel. PVC should work for now though, but it will not truely reflect this cells full capabilities. I'll be back tonight with some concept art to get your input.
Thanks for everything,
~Dingus
Sorry I didn't get a chance to post on Friday night... Today was a little crazy, but I got some PH strips and went to home depot and started looking at easily obtained parts. I'm think only a few components need to be clear, and that will help lower the overall costs. I marked the parts I think need to be clear with a "c".
Also since you were on point and got the air type PEM we can use a gravity driven pressurization. By having a higher water level on the open zinc side of the cell, we can use constant pressure to ensure full output wattage of the fuel cell via pressure and easy access for maintaining a propper water level. The water drops being pulled down the drip line will cause vacuum and pull fresh air in to the fuel cell.
As for the projected operation of the cell... As long as the reactor is making more hydrogen then the fuel cell can consume the water level should drop on the cathode side of the cell from building H2 pressure. Turning the reactor off will allow the fuel cell to catch up thus balancing the water level, but we could also use a POT to manually adjust the speed of hydrogen production via variable resistance.
Let me know if there are any aspects of the design you are conserned about, or if there are any potential problems that I may have missed. I hope this design is everything you were hoping for.
Thanks again,
~Dingus
Hi Chris,
Thank you very much for your work on the diagram.
It's getting close. I did not describe the fuel cell enough in detail to you. There is only one input for a hose, and that is the hydrogen input. The oxygen is obtained from the air through a series of four open slots on the opposite side of the cell. The water that is formed from the reaction is precipitated in the form of droplets on the housing of the fuel cell. That is why in my diagram I have a funnel below the fuel cell.
I apologize I did not describe that aspect of the cell for you.
In my diagram I had the oxygen tube running from the zinc side of the unit through a tube to the fuel cell. My intention is to collect the oxygen produced by the zinc regeneration and feed it as close as possible to the slots on the fuel cell. That way I am hoping the efficiency of the fuel cell will be enhanced. I guess that part of the whole apparatus can be considered open to the atmosphere.
So there is no opening in the bottom of the fuel cell to connect a tube to for the collection of the water. It just drips off the sides of the fuel cell.
Something is not quite right to me about the way it is designed. I can't put my finger on it yet. Let me look at it for a bit. Otherwise it looks great. Nice graphics. I like the SS discs and bolt on the bottom.
In my glass jar hydrogen experiment at home there is a layer of grey precipitate on the bottom . Must be the zinc flakes. I regenerate the cell twice a day for about two minutes with the same AA battery. I've been doing that for days now. The cell keeps going and regenerates fine, but the flakes keep happening. Your idea for the ss disc should make that problem disappear.
Like I mentioned, let me look at it for a bit. I will be busy today, and tommorrow I am going up to Michigan to be with my mom for an operation she needs. So I'm not thinking with a full head right now. I am a bit distracted. Give me a little time and I will get back to this as quickly as I can.
Thanks again Chris.
Dave
OIC ;)
Well even if we can't use the draining water to create a pressure vacuum, the PEM will still pull its own air. As for pressurizing the the O2 side of the cell, I think it wouldn't make much of a difference outside of making the design more complicated. The only thing that must be pressurized in a H2/Air PEM is the H2, but eventually we will need to design a fully sealed cell. We'll need a H2/O2 3 hose sealed PEM to do that though.
Hope all is well for you and your family,
and that all goes well in the coming days...
~Dingus
edit: I've spent more time thinking about the O2 adding efficiency to the fuel cell... I'll be back to upload another sketch soon.
Ok,
same gravity powered pressure system, but now with the added pure O2 delivery system...
Hi Dingus,
I've been gone all day and just got home a few minutes ago. I looked at your redesign of the unit and now I see what was bothering me. You have the water recycled back into the zinc side of the cell. This will cause a concentration imbalance on that side of the unit as the NaOH/Mg/Ag solution becomes less concentrated. This will occur as the water is recycled.
I like the idea of allowing the water to recycle back into the "V" tube at the bottom of the unit. This will allow the water to collect in that area and the solution from both the Tungsten and Zinc sides to flow into that area in equal amounts. Maybe the "V" needs to be just straight across so the mixing will be equal and the water won't collect without mixing into both sides of the unit. I think I explained it correctly. If you look back at your original reactor drawings you will see what I mean. You have the water recycling back into the area I think would be better.
Let me know if you don't quite understand what I am trying to say; but this is what I first saw as a problem. I am tired right now so I am going to crash out. I'm leaving early tommorrow and may not be back for a day or two. (Maybe). I'll be where I probably won't have the opportunity to get internet access. So have some patience with me and I will get back to you as soon as I can.
I really, really appreciate your effort. Make a list of parts and prices and send me a personal note if you want, or post it here. I want to get this project rolling. I really believe it can be made overunity.
Thanks again,
Dave
P.S. That is a nice drawing. What graphics program are you using. It's great.
I have redesigned the reactor to fit your needs, but unfortunately I don't think this will solve the problem you've metioned. When the warm water is added to the center holding chamber the anode side of the reator (since unpressurized) will balance thus pulling water from the holding chamber to the zinc side of the reactor. To really avoid this problem you would need to cycle the electrolyte which would only be (OU) possible on large reactors.
Either way I don't think it will be that big of a problem as long as the water is sufficiently saturated with NaOH. Then I think the warm fresh water will spontaniously take in the soluable (-OH) ions. Altho maximum solubility is 111 g of NaOH / 100 ml H2O @ (20?C), so you may be right... Wow I can't even imagine that mixture, its got to be a thick nasty corrosive paste.
Anywho... Heres the new layout. Get back to me with any thoughts you may have for further improvements. Also I'm working on getting a new 3-d program so I can further bring the digital representations to life.
Be safe, and my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family,
~Dingus
Hi Chris,
I appreciate your thoughtful concerns and prayers for our family. It's just a difficult time right now, but we will get through it no matter what happens. I will be leaving as soon as I post this reply and I'll get back to you when I get a chance.
Now that design looks good. Beautifully done, good job!
Give me your thoughts. Do you think where the water is added back in, instead of a type of "u" shape, maybe it should be straight across. If it comes back in warm it would mix simply by warm/cold water movement. I also don't think it would be a problem either way though, you are right. There is such a large volume of gas from a small amount of water that I don't think it would make much difference.
OK! Looks good! Send me a parts/price list for what you need when you get a chance. I appreciate your effort on this. I'll be back in touch.
Thanks again Chris,
Dave
No rush resin, we got plenty of time...
I will have to special order the SS316 components, but I've already send out some price requests. The only thing we need order besides the SS316 is the clear components. So we'll each need a 10' section of clear PCV 1" and 3 1" 'T' connectors, but the rest (unless you want it clear) can be obtained at any home depot or lowes.
~Dingus
Quote from: ResinRat2 on January 22, 2007, 07:29:40 AM
Give me your thoughts. Do you think where the water is added back in, instead of a type of "u" shape, maybe it should be straight across. If it comes back in warm it would mix simply by warm/cold water movement. I also don't think it would be a problem either way though, you are right. There is such a large volume of gas from a small amount of water that I don't think it would make much difference.
Sorry I forgot to address this...
The 'U' shape is to ensure gas purity and containment. If the bridge was straight gasses could escape to the center chamber, and if the cell was ever run dry oxygen would be able to reach the fuel cell. In the current design water will always fill the 'u' so both of these engineering problems are avoided.
I hope this explains the need for this aspect of the deisgn.
~Dingus
Hi Chris,
OK, sounds good. Parts are on the way.
Keep me posted.
Thanks,
Dave
There are still a few components on the way...
But the first pvc reactor vessel is almost done!
In a perfect world I should have it shipped out
to ResinRat for testing by next weekend. :)
And if all goes well hopefully a video coming soon!
For now pics of the reactor so far:
Hi Chris,
Wow! Looks sharp.
Should be easy to measure hydrogen output and hook it up to a fuel cell.
Also, I had another thought. I think zinc bolts, washers, and nuts are available. This may work for the bottom connections, but they may be subject to corrosion. Let me know what you think.
Another thought: Do you think we may need another pipe connection across and below the "U" connection? This would give another place for the two cell's electrolyte solution to mix.
That's for the future though, right now your efforts are very appreciated.
Great Job,
Dave
I performed another experiment this weekend and the results are very interesting.
I put together the normal cell for experiment #13 of the patent and into this cell I placed two electrodes of tungsten and 2 electrodes of zinc. I connected a zinc with a tungsten electrode, and the other two I did the same. So I had each pair shorted out separately. Both tungsten began to give off hydrogen as usual.
After about an hour I attached a 1.5V AA battery to one pair of electrodes (W-Z) with the negative side of the battery connected to the zinc. This should regenerate the zinc and produce oxygen, and this was what I observed; but what is interesting is that the tungsten electrode of the other shorted pair continued to produce hydrogen at what looked like the same rate. What I was doing was balancing the reaction electrically.
This means that I could most likely use the fuel cell to produce voltage, and regulate that voltage through a variable resistor (or some other way) with just enough amperage going to the zinc to induce regeneration and oxygen production. This means I can most likely control the amperage enough to produce an overunity situation.
This is my goal, theoretically; and this is the experiment I would want to perform on the clear PVC reactor. If enough hydrogen gas can be produced to be in excess of the required amperage needed to regenerate the zinc, then we would have a cell that would produce hydrogen/oxygen gases at a 2:1 volume ratio. Exactly what is needed to manufacture a sealed unit that hopefully can produce a slight excess voltage and run completely off ambient temperature.
The zinc electrodes would still need to have their connections switched every so often; but that is for future problem solving. Right now I want an overunity reaction, and this definitely looks feasible. This means no outside circuit, nor an outside battery would be needed. Only a way to control the output amperage/voltage of the fuel cell.
Man I am so encouraged by this last experiment. This means a single cell can be used, and no outside battery would need to be charged or even used.
Chris, after you read this please shoot me an e-mail or phone call and let me know how far along you are to building the reactor. Maybe we can alter the present unit to include a second set of W-Z electrodes to be used for regeneration.
Zinc bolts and hardware would work for preventing a uncontroled galvanic reaction, but as you had pointed out, too much use would result in the the bolt eventually oxiziding untill a leak is sprung. But if its in a constantly maintained cell, the zinc would all eventually migrate down and reduce to the bolt head, thereby avoiding the problem and extending the exposure time required to ruin the reactor.
As for the 4 electrode cell... That makes sence and gives me a lot of new ideas! I can and would be willing to moddify the reactor vessel to include this design adjustment. I would simple add a 'T' with 2 'L' connections to the bottom of each clear 'T'. So the reactor would have 4 legs and 2 gas exits. If used on a o2/h2 fuel cell and if both Zn samples share one side and both WC samples share the other side, we could use the water levels to monitor the balance of the reaction. ;D
I'll replicate your experiment later tonight... Time permitting.
Let me know if you want me to upgrade the two leg vessel while I still have it.
I couldn't find your number or I would have called, but give me a ring if you get the chance.
Congrats on the finding our next phase of research,
~Dingus Mungus
(I'm doing the excited about hydrogen research dance)
:D
Hi Chris,
Just got back home a few minutes ago.
Yes, please alter the reactor to have two more legs. The zinc on one side, and the tungsten on the other is good. Let's keep the both hydrogen going into one side and both oxygen going into the other. This is great. Let's also add another connection to increase the overall electrolyte surface area between the cells. Not just where the water goes back in. I think we need a connection that allows undiluted electrolyte to flow easily between cells in the reactor. Let me know what you think.
I am starting to look at the Hydrogen/oxygen fuel cell now instead of the hydrogen/air cell. The H2/O2 fuel cell produces almost twice the amperage, and it
should give an even better chance at overunity.
We seriously need to stop the spontaneous galvanic ss/zinc reaction. It will cause havoc in the oxygen side of the cell if I go to the hydrogen/oxygen fuel cell because it will be producing hydrogen off the ss and mixing with the oxygen. I think going with zinc bolt/washers/nuts is the way to go. What do you think?
Potentially this can be used as a closed cell.
Keep me posted and thanks again,
Dave
I've been thinking about the current design and adding the two legs per half cell and my only worry is we'll be further increasing the internal resistance of the cell. I can do this easy mod, but I'm worried about it performance. There is another option though. I have sketched out something that looks like a cube made with pvc. It would still use 2 gas exits and have 4 terminal legs, but the cambers will all be in much closer proximity. In the mean time I can send you this design and if the PVC holds up to the hydroxy, I'll start work on the chamber cell I have in mind with cheap normal PVC. (I'll still add some clear segments)
I'm looking for 1/2" zinc bolts now... It may delay my shipping date a little, but its needed.
~Dingus
Hmmmm...
http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/series.aspx?id=16
It seems to be exactly what we need, just called by something else.
I'll have to visit some boating shops next weekend, but If I can find
some "Nut Zinc Anodes" that fit 1" 40schd PVC, I'll buy em up!
I'm having trouble finding any threaded zinc online, let alone zinc bolts. ???
I think these caps should work fine... Lets just hope there is a size that fits.
~Dingus
Hi Chris,
The flasks you bought may not work well for the reactor, I am thinking there won't be much headspace and the gas will keep getting into the connecting tube.
Aspirator bottles would probably work better. If you can find those cheap I think it would answer your problems. They also have larger openings at the bottom for connecting between bottles. I will try and see if I can find some that are more reasonably priced. Custom glassware is very expensive.
I'll keep you posted,
Dave
I agree the flasks seem to be too small for our perposes, but I'll have to look in to Aspirator bottles as you have suggested. No new parts arrived today... :( Hopefully tomorow. In the mean time what do you think of the zinc caps I found? Do you think they will work for containing the zinc side of the vessel?
Thanks again,
~Dingus
Hi Chris,
Sorry, I initially misunderstood what you meant by zinc caps, I thought they went on the inside of the cell like a type of covering over the ss bolts. Now I see they are bottom caps. This should work for the zinc side. Then you can actually do the electrical connection right to the cap. This sounds to me like you have a good idea as long as there is a good seal to the pvc.
That would be a simple solution.
Thanks again,
Dave
Then I'll purchase some this weekend.
Till then, good luck on your experiments!
~Dingus
I think I may have a better idea for the zinc plugs...
The ID of 1" schedule 40 PVC is 1.029", If I get 4"x1"od solid extruded zinc round bars, we could use a silicon sealing sleave to plug the legs. I would have to find a caulk or sealent resistant to hydroxies first though. Then you could simply place your high surface area zinc anodes on top of the zinc plug. if the reactor then goes for a long time without a reducing cycle, the plug would hold out. Its cheaper/easier and (most importantly) a long term solution.
What do you think?
~Dingus
Sounds like you have a good idea there Chris.
Thanks again,
Dave
Well then,
Sounds like the best solution yet, but do any of the silent readers have any other suggestions? Feel free to chime in anytime. As for me, I'm getting ready to move in to my own place again. So money will be a little tight for me for the next month or more (deposits), but as soon as I cash that check I'll order the last of the components required to finish and ship your reactor. I'm sorry its taking me so long to finalize the design, but I assure you the final product should work like a charm with your fuel cell.
Thanks again,
~Dingus
@ the silent readers
It's not too late to get involved in this project. All the chemicals involved are easily obtained, and we could always use more people doing research. If hydrogen is your core interest, then this is the project to get involved in. Feel free to ask questions or give input till then. Thanks!
a silent reader here,
yes I'm very interested in this, but I've been watching and waiting for a reasonably stable design with parts and suppliers. with design and parts out of the way I can jump in and help with the testing and improvements.
you guys have done very impressive work to get to this point and you get a big thankyou from me!
I understand silent readers, we are not at a stable point yet.
We are learning as we go; my goal is a overunity design. Starting from scratch takes time. I have made many mistakes and had many failures along the way; and just understanding the chemistry and components involved has been a very interesting undertaking.
Replication of Experiment #13 of the patent does not replicate a very exciting reaction that produces tons of hydrogen in a short time. There are other experiments that are more reactive. Especially the Aluminum-Acid reactions or iron-aluminum-acid reactions. These I have avoided because of the odor of sulfer and chlorine that goes along with the sulfuric and hydrochloric acids. So I have intentionally chosen a more mild reaction.
I also never intented to burn the gas, only feed it through a fuel cell and produce electricity. If you see the 350ml/min video that Dr. Griffin posted you will see the potential of this technology. That seems too fast for a fuel cell (maybe not) but I am starting small and working my way up.
Anyone can choose a more vigorous reaction if they desire, which would entail handling hydrogen at a faster rate. This is not where I want to go yet. I am trying to take slow steps to work upwards. A sealed cell is the goal for me right now. One that produces electricity, recycles all the components, and gets all its energy from the amibient air temperature. That is where I am going. I hope we can all gain from this experience. I am doing the best I can right now, and learning as I go. Cost, time, and inexperience are why it is going so slow. I do believe this is worth the time and trouble, that is why I am doing this research. Dingus has been a big help, and any others who wish to contribute are welcome to give comments or research findings.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on February 07, 2007, 09:44:03 PM
If you see the 350ml/min video that Dr. Griffin posted you will see the potential of this technology. That seems too fast for a fuel cell (maybe not) but I am starting small and working my way up.
LOL! Way too much hydrogen for your fuel cell, but just imagine...
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=NavPage/cat=27 (http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=NavPage/cat=27)
Quote from: tak22 on February 07, 2007, 08:00:03 PM
I've been watching and waiting for a reasonably stable design with parts and suppliers. with design and parts out of the way I can jump in and help with the testing and improvements.
That is my goal... Finding a solid enough design to make this technology kit ready. With any luck it'll spread quickly and get developed by someone in to a low cost high yeild home power generator. When I get my PSU we'll know the rough COP. Damn... I don't even think I can use a COP ratio, thats only for devices that generate heat... Hmmmm.
Updates coming soon!!!
~Dingus
Hey Dingus,
$64K :D!??!
I like the prices that say "Request Quote". :o :o
What a pain in the wallet :D :D!!!!!
LOL!!!
Well the good news is, Those prices are for complete UPS style power backup systems. We would be looking at just the PEM cell core. Also right now its still new technology... It used to cost nasa several million per kW of PEM power. For the last few years congress has been investing in alternative energies to help further the developement process and lower prices. In a few years PEM fuel cells should be affordable enough for most americans to have in their cars or homes. In the mean time maybe one of these companies will act as a sponsor once we have something worth showing them.
All in good time,
~Dingus
Hi Chris,
I did more experimenting today and I found a variation on my original circuit that can be used in this single cell configuration. This means that I should be able to use the fuel cell to boost hydrogen/oxygen generation and zinc regeneration at the same time. This gives me a very interesting direction of research once the four- electrode reactor arrives.
Hopefully it has the possibility of over-unity.
The forward hydrogen generation reaction is spontaneous and endothermic, this allows it to "drive" the energy forward using a fuel cell. The more hydrogen, the more electricity is produced. Cycling this back should boost the hydrogen/oxygen production even more. Also, using the four electrode hydrogen reactor should allow me to have a continuous hydrogen and power output even when a zinc electrode is regenerating.
The only way to know if this will work is with some benchwork.
I am looking forward to this line of experimentation. Should be very interesting indeed.
Here's a nice fuel cell to try.
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=Item/cat=24/product=43
Price is a bit steep, :-\ but it uses hydrogen/air and gives a decent enough output to give it overunity capability. This technology is a bit expensive.
I'll keep looking.
Well it will take some time till they're affordable... Altho I may look in to building a fuel cell stack or two in a few months. I've heard there are los of manuals out there for the process, and the composition of the cell seems simple enough. http://e1ps.tripod.com/fuelcellfuture/id6.html (http://e1ps.tripod.com/fuelcellfuture/id6.html) I bet your the guy to find the Nafion 112 flouropolymer we'll need. LOL! I'll be searching for the next few months for the cheapest source of standard components. I really hope the only costly component is the platinum.
Speaking of which...
For anyone interested, here are my best sources for hydrogen cell components so far.
Zinc rods:
http://www.rotometals.com/zinc_rods_plates_disc.htm (http://www.rotometals.com/zinc_rods_plates_disc.htm)
Tungsten Carbide rods:
http://www.extramet.net/check_stock.html (http://www.extramet.net/check_stock.html)
I would suggest the "RR 2" model rods, but no less then 10 WC rods per 3/8" zinc rod. This is necessary to assure the cathodes surface area is equal or greater than the surface area of the anode. Each RR2 rod costs $3.80 so let me know if you found/find cheaper prices on WC.
NaOH pellets: (This is funny)
http://search.ebay.com/NaOH (http://search.ebay.com/NaOH)
50PPM Ag/Mg colloids:
http://www.silvermountainminerals.com/magnesium.html (http://www.silvermountainminerals.com/magnesium.html)
http://www.silvermountainminerals.com/silver.html (http://www.silvermountainminerals.com/silver.html)
Just remember to adjust your mixure to allow for 20ppm...
10ml @ 20ppm = 4ml @ 50ppm
Enjoy!
~Dingus
Hi Chris,
I called for information about the fuel cell:
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=Item/cat=24/product=43
I talked for a while with the tech representative, he explained a few things to me since I had no experience with fuel cells.
It seems the power ratings are nominal ratings and the cell wattage varies over a period of time depending on temperature of the cell and load on the cell. This particular cell has a maximum hydrogen flow rate that it can handle at 36ml/min. I looked back and saw my little fancy-glass reactor put out over 13ml/min. So this is easily over a third of the maximum for this cell.
That particular fuel cell also potentially can put out over 2 amps at max flow. I've been doing all my regeneration experiments with a AA battery that puts out about a half-amp. Just looking at the numbers this should easily be overunity, with excess voltage to capture. So I just wanted to post this information for everyone to see.
The link for the fuel cell above shows a graph with power, amp, and voltage potentials. Just look over the graph and you can see this cell has the potential to do the job. So I will go ahead and purchase this unit. Once the clear PVC reactor arrives I will use this for experimentation. All I will need to do is load up the PVC reactor with plenty of Tungsten/Carbide rods to boost the hydrogen output. The feedback should easily regenerate the zinc. I just need some way to control, store or use the excess power.
This is where someone who knows a little bit about electronics can help me. I need a way to wire the power put out by the fuel cell so that just enough is sent back to regenerate the zinc. The rest of the power needs to be stored or used in some way. This will be the overunity energy, drawn from ambient air temperature.
I need suggestions on how to do this. I am ignorant on electronics, but this should be simple enough to design for someone with basic knowledge of electric circuits.
Thanks for your interest.
Hi Everyone,
Nothing has been posted here for over 10 days so I just want to give a quick note on our status.
Dingus Mungus is in the process of finishing the assembly of the hydrogen generator and I am waiting for the more powerful fuel cell to arrive. For me it will be another two or three weeks since it's on backorder. In the meantime I have been doing experiments on the best way to wire the power output once the entire unit is assembled. Mramos has been very helpful in this area and has given me ideas on how to set this up. Unfortunately, no definitive design can be chosen until actual experiments are performed, this won't happen until all the pieces of the puzzle (reactor) are in place.
So have patience everyone. This thread is NOT dead, just in the process of being investigated.
Thanks for your interest.
HI ResinRat,
many thanks for the update.
Please keep us informed about your new progress also in the future.
Looking forward to see you running this device
on the fuelcell.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
:)
Hi Everyone,
I've been doing a great deal of experimenting over the last two weeks and I believe I have worked out how the Hydrogen Reactor will be wired to the fuel cell. Dr. Griffin's electrolysis process is endothermic and spontaneous, thus the unit will begin producing hydrogen on its own without power input. So it will immediately begin producing electricity.
On the diagram you will see that each chamber will have at least two electrodes, the tungsten chamber will be loaded with as many electrodes as it can hold to boost hydrogen production to its maximum potential, these will be wired as T2. The T1 will be a single tungsten electrode to be used for the sole purpose of regenerating the zinc electrodes. In the other chamber there will be two zinc electrodes for the production of oxygen and zinc regeneration.
On the right side of the reactor there is a capacitor to help smooth the output of the Fuel Cell which will be constantly varying due to hydrogen production and temperature. There is also added a load, which will be where the overunity energy will be collected from. The size of these two (capacitor and load) will need to be determined experimentally. The goal is to have the load extract all the energy from the Fuel Cell output except the amount needed to regenerate the zinc electrode Z1 at the same rate zinc is consumed from the T2 and Z2 connection.
Ultimately this unit should be developed to be completely sealed from the environment, with only two wires extending outside the unit. This is where the overunity energy will be tapped. The connection between the zinc electrodes would need to be switched periodically. Maybe once a day, in order to allow even regeneration of the zinc on each electrode, and also so no zinc electrode becomes depleted. Thus would be developed a machine that produces a continuous output of electricity, drawn from ambient air temperature; using NO BATTERY!
This would be the total realization of Dingus Mungus's idea of a completely sealed unit. All components regenerated; including the heat produced by the fuel cell and the water returned into the reactor chamber. Described in Stefan's own words,"This is a perfect 'green' energy cycle."
This is where my experimenting will begin once the PVC reactor is assembled and ready to use.
Thank you for your interest.
I was looking over this idea and I thought it was interesting to notice that it encompasses three types of energy.
1)There is the chemical reaction that produces hydrogen. This reaction is endothermic, therefore it absorbs heat from the environment. I noticed that if the reaction is accelerated with a battery that it actually cools the liquid in the chamber at an accelerated rate.
2)The galvanic reaction produces hydrogen spontaneously. This reaction is catalyzed with colloidal Magnesium and Silver. The colloids are high surface area and allow the reaction to occur at a low activation energy (Low voltage) on the surfaces of the tungsten and zinc electrodes.
3)The hydrogen enters the Fuel Cell and converts the gas directly into electrical and thermal energy at a theoretically high efficiency.
So in this unit there is catalyzed chemical, electrical, and thermal energies that shuttle between each other and the environment. A very unique and complex mix.
Just thought you would find it interesting to notice.
Thanks for your interest.
Ok, my son's video is back up. Just a little fun to see, hear good music, and see the credits.
enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuUdcocg-BI
Nice work Resinrat2 and Dingus, here is a neat experiment for you to play with. If you have a reactor which has ran for a while, then replace the Zinc electrode with a aluminum wire. I know as well as everyone else that the aluminum will react with the base solution ( or will it). Watch the aluminum and see what is deposited on the surface. Once the surface of the aluminum is covered with Zinc then close the circuit and watch what comes off of the T/C electrode. Do you need voltage input to regenerate the zinc, you tell me.
Have fun and keep up the experiments
Linnard
Hi Linnard,
welcome to the forum.
Many thanks for your great input.
I hope some people would try out soon this experiment.
I myself am in this moment busy with other things,
mainly with the Mike Motor.
I hope Resinrat and Dingus can try these out.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
P.S. Linnard, maybe you can tell us, what your current commercial unit
is capable of doing ?
Is it going soon for sales ?
Many thanks.
I'm planning on replicating this experiment tonight...
Quite excited! ;D
Thank you Linnard,
~Dingus
Hi Linnard,
I will try that experiment. Thank you for the suggestion and I will let everyone know what results I get.
I never thought of trying this. ::) :D
Wait!!! :o
Does this mean the loop is closed already??? :o
Well I tried it, this is what I observed.
I removed all electrodes from the cell. I took a fresh aluminum electrode and placed it in the solution. It immediately turned grey. I pulled it out and it had a coating of grey on it. I must assume, at this point, that it is zinc. I placed the tungsten electrode into the solution. Nothing.
I connected the two electrodes with a copper wire above the vessel. After a few seconds the tungsten began to give off gas.
IS THIS HYDROGEN?? I THINK IT IS!!!
DO YOU ALL KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SOMEBODY PINCH MEEEEEE!!!!!!
Pardon me while I go lie down, I feel faint.
If this is hydrogen gas coming off, then THE LOOP IS CLOSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WE NEED NO POWER TO REGENERATE THE ZINC!!!!!!!!!
This is FREEEEEEEEEEE EVERYONE!!!!!! THIS IS FREE!!!! WE ARE FREE!!
WAIT --- wait --- let me calm down and start thinking like a scientist.
I need to look at this for a bit and be sure of what I am seeing. Give me time to test the gas with a flame.
I can't believe how excited I am. Dingus, we've got to get the reactor built. This is amazing.
Wait --- calm down my nerves.
I'll get back to you all after I watch this reaction for a while; but I have a good feeling about this.
So I've watched it for a bit. There is gas coming off both electrodes, but the aluminum one is staying grey below the liquid level. So is this Oxygen coming off the aluminum/zinc electrode?
If it is I think I am really going to pass out.
Not only that, but the zinc coating around the aluminum electrode is getting thicker and thicker. It is regenerating on its own.
I have a great deal of experimenting to do everyone. My mind is racing at this moment. I can't believe what I am seeing.
Thank you Linnard, Thank you thank you ty ty ty ty ty!!!!!etc,,,,,,
Don't mind me I am a bit excited.
LOL @ ResinRat2
:D GOOD JOB!
OK everyone, I need to calm down. I haven't been very professional over the last few posts. Sorry, I guess that was my EUREKA.
I am going to take a step back and think about this. What happens when the zinc stops replating? Will the hydrogen production then stop? Is it really oxygen coming off the aluminum/zinc electrode or is it hydrogen sneaking through the zinc off the aluminum?
There are many more questions now generated by this development. I need time to think about this and what the next steps will be for experiments.
This is amazing though. The loop is not closed until it is closed; and right now I have no proof at all that it is closed. Just a hope and a dream right now. It needs to be studied and proved. This will take a little time.
Hi All,
This morning the tungsten electrode was still giving off gas as usual, but the aluminum electrodes were wrapped with a blob of grey (zinc?) and it too was giving off gas. This should be hydrogen off the tungsten, and oxygen off the aluminum/(zinc?); but I will need to confirm this before I say for sure.
This is very interesting. I wonder if the (zinc?) is being consumed by the hydrogen generation, and then immediately being replated on the aluminum? That would be great because that would mean the reaction would keep going as long as there is water added. If the hydrogen went directly to a fuel cell then the water could be recycled.
I wish I had a pH meter to see how the NaOH is fairing.
Well it looks like, at this point, that all the energy that will be produced by a fuel cell can go directly to a load. No circuits and no batteries (except if we want to charge them).
I'll keep you posted on further developments and observations.
Thank you for your interest.
I am not sure if the grey blob is zinc or some zinc compound. When I see zinc replated using a battery it has a flake type appearance. This zinc has an almost rubbery type of consistancy and does not flake apart. Also, the bubbles coming off this grey blob do not seem to originate on the blobs surface, but seem to come from its "pores". Making me question if the gas is actually coming from the aluminum electrode that is encased in the zinc blob. Maybe the gas is pushing its way to the surface.? I am not sure.
I need to collect each gas seperately and test each with a flame.
Thanks for your interest.
Hi Everyone,
I had the cell running all day and night. It is still giving off gas from the tungsten and aluminum/zinc electrodes. I pulled them out and took a couple of pics for your interest.
The picture at the bottom shows what the electrodes looked like when I pulled them out of the reaction container. notice the grey blob is wrapped around the aluminum electrode(s). On the left side is the tungsten electrode (1/8" diameter).
The top picture shows the aluminum electrodes after they slipped out of the grey blob. Notice they are the same starting thickness as the tungsten electrode. The blob is a rubbery type of consistancy.
I don't really have any comments at this point. I will look these over and let you know what else is interesting but right now I need to get to work so I'll communicate with you all later tonight after I get back home.
Thanks for your interest.
Looking over the pictures I think the reaction did not go as it should have, and here is why.
The used alkali-zinc solution would contain various species of zincate complexes such as :
[Zn(OH)4)]-2
These complexes are used extensively in the art of metal plating.
What should have formed was a thin layer of zinc on the aluminum electrode. What I think happened was after I dipped the aluminum rod into the alkali solution I did not wait long enough for the aluminum electrode to become completely covered with zinc. I believe there were breaches in the zinc coating and once I connected the aluminum-zinc rod to the tungsten electrode the exposed aluminum began to react with the NaOH solution, forming hydrogen. This never allowed the zinc to completely cover the aluminum. Thus the zincates were probably attracted to the positive charges on the aluminum surface and they conglomerated around the aluminum rod in a blob of zincate complexes.
The fact that the aluminum rod looks thinner in the area that was immersed gives me a clue that the aluminum was reacting. This also explains why the gas from this aluminum-zinc electrode seemed to come from under the coating and bubble outward through holes in the coating.
This blob would be useless then.Though I could probably throw it back into the alkali solution and it would probably redissolve.
I think I need to start from scratch. Redo a reaction from the beginning and allow it to run maybe a day or two, then retry this with a new aluminum electrode. Then I will be more satisfied with what results I get. This solution was very "used". It had been through many cycles with two or three zinc anodes, and NaOH had been added to it twice in various experiments. This was really a quick shot in the dark experiment that sought to use some old reaction solution in some way before disposing of it.
So give me a bit of time to see what a repeat of this experiment will show.
I think Dingus said he was going to try it so I am curious to see what results he gets. He would get data before I would so I could see if my results replicate his.
Thank you for your interest.
Dave,
Finally found the correct forum so now I can read from page one and catch up on what has been done so far.
Trump
;)
Welcome back Trump!
ResinRat2, nice investigative work there.
Folks, thanks for following up
ResinRat2, Dingus Mungus,
Looks like you two are heading this project up and doing a fine job of it. I finally got through reading all of the post's from number one all the way through.
Things have changed a lot over the last few Months. If I got it right ResinRat2, you were thinking that your plating may have not been done good enough ,or properly? Could it be that the parts should be sent out and be plated at a regular plating facility? There is a BIG difference between plating by hand ( dipping ) and at a plating company.
You two are carrying this project all alone, I am not saying that everyone should send some money, but if something is needed, maybe some of us other people looking on can help support your efforts, by looking up some information or even getting some parts if needed.
At this point you may or may not think you are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, but you can say that you have made a lot of progress in the last few months.
Regards
Trump
Hi Trump,
You know, at first I just kind of blew off your suggestion and didn't really consider it, but your idea might actually not be a bad one. If a perfect thin coating of zinc were placed on an aluminum rod it would prevent the "leakage" for sure. Then I would know what would actually build up on the aluminum rod without hydrogen gas leaking out of breeches in the coating and eating away the aluminum surface. I would also be sure that residual NaOH solution trapped between the zinc/aluminum interface wouldn't be causing a problem as well.
I was thinking of using a series of dip/dry cycles. Dip the aluminum rod, let it coat briefly, then pull it out and let it dry. Do this several cycles to be sure no holes are in the coating; but your idea would solve that problem. Give me a bit and let me consider how this could be done.
Thanks for your idea.
Alternate the aluminum between the hydroxy solution and a weak acid. (like vinegar or coke) The weak acid and strong base will cancel each other out to form water and stop the oxidation of the metals. Once dried repeat process. The problem is after several hours of this the reduction that occures is going to oxidize the aluminum no matter what you do.
2Zn(OH)4 + Al2O3 = 2Zn(OH) + 2Al(OH)3 + 3O2
So there is the reduction and gas release... As you can see the only gas being liberated is the oxygen contained by the Alumina. If someone else has a better theory of what is occuring in this new reaction, I hope you'll be so kind as to share it with us. Unfortunately though at this time it appears this method of reduction will only cause the cell to consume more metalic fuels.
~Dingus
Hmmm Dingus, not sure of the chemistry; but I don't know if there will really be an advantage to this angle. I looked over the patent and, unless I missed it, I don't see this method of zinc reduction. All that is mentioned is the process that uses the Mg colloid to reduce the zinc, and the use of electric potential to also reduce the zinc.
I think with the fuel cell we will have enough excess amps to accomplish this and run a load, so I feel, at this time, that I agree with you. This may not be the angle to pursue right now. Maybe if Dr. Linnard would like to elaborate on the advantage of the aluminum-zinc electrode method and help us to see why this would be preferred it would be a great help to understanding what we are missing. I am definitely no expert in electro-chemistry. I think I will try and look into it a bit more, but my experimental results still end up consuming the aluminum electrode, which is what I would like to avoid. Still, he wanted us to try this for some reason. I'll keep digging and see what I can find out.
I think I'll take a sample of the blob to work and run an FTIR analysis. See if I can identify it.
Thank you everyone for your interest.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on March 08, 2007, 06:06:00 PM
Hmmm Dingus, not sure of the chemistry;
DOH!!!
You're right...
3Zn(OH)4 + Al2O3 = 3Zn(OH)2 + 2Al(OH)3 + 3O2
I got ZnO and Zn(OH)2 confused... I'm still not positive about this reaction, but this seems to be what I observed in my replication cells I launched earlier this week. We need more chemists here! Please let me know what you discover with your FTIR analysis.
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on March 08, 2007, 07:16:12 PM
Please let me know what you discover with your FTIR analysis.
Sorry Dingus, I can't let you see the FTIR results. Sorry.
:D :D :D :D :D ;D ;D
Just kidding ----->>>
Don't worry buddy, all the results will be posted here.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on March 08, 2007, 08:52:33 PM
Sorry Dingus, I can't let you see the FTIR results.
:D HA! I'm so jealous you have access to that kinda gear... I'm still trying to meet some ASU chemistry majors so I can bribe them in to doing some similar tests for me. I'm glad you're around to help when it comes to getting past just theory.
~Dingus
Hi Everyone,
I have some interesting data:
I did some FTIR scans of the grey blob I obtained from the zinc regeneration experiment that was suggested by Dr. Linnard Griffin. This grey blob formed on the aluminum electrode that replaced the zinc electrode in a cell that had run for a while. These results are interesting and confirmed a few things.
If you look at the bottom picture you will see the scan for the regenerated electrode after it had been dried for three hours at 250?F. This was needed because the IR picks up the -OH group of the water molecule as a large broad peak between about 2900-3700 (cm-1). These numbers are the wavenumbers at the bottom scale of the scan. So it is important to drive off any residual water from the sample in order to get a valid scan. Notice the bottom picture has really only one prominent peak around 1400-1500(cm-1). This made it very easy for the computer to do a library search and come up with the identity as Zinc Carbonate. (ZnCO3).
This was confusing, and I was trying to understand where the carbonate ion came from. Afterall, there is no carbon in the cell. Just NaOH, Mg, Ag, Tungsten, and zinc electrodes in water. No carbon anywhere.
Then came the revelation. I had assumed earlier that zincate complexes:
[Zn(OH)4]-2
were part of the make-up of the cell, and were the main form of the solublized Zinc. This was the form I expected to see on the IR. The zinc scan with a -OH peak after it had been dried; but if you look at the top scan and see the second and third scans you will see a gradual reduction of the OH peak as it dried. These are the air dry, 30 min dry, and 3 hour dry samples at 250?F.
What is really happening is that the Zinc hydroxide [Zn(OH)2] in the blob
is reacting with Carbon Dioxide (CO2) in the oven. This follows the formula:
Zn(OH)2 + CO2 --> ZnCO3 + H2O
Zinc Carbon Zinc Water
Hydroxide Dioxide Carbonate
So the water is no longer seen because it is driven off, and the carbonate group is formed.
So the original statement I made earlier, that zincates make up the regenerated zinc, was correct.
Also the scan for NaOH has the same promenant peak as the Zinc Carbonate, but the group around 3500(cm-1) was missing, so I know the NaOH did not effect the scans.
What this all means is that I was correct. The solublized zinc in the cell that is regenerating is in the form of zincate complexes; and this is what makes up the regenerated zinc electrode. It also tells me that there is a possibility that doing the dip/dry method with the aluminum electrode may seal the aluminum enough, if done properly, from reacting with the NaOH solution and producing hydrogen.
So I will try to get a zinc coating on the aluminum electrode first. Hoping to completely seal it from the NaOH solution; and once that coating is composed of many dried coats, I will again immerse it in the solution and connect it to the tungsten and see if it regenerates, or is used up, or whatever else happens.
I think this is what Dr. Griffin wanted us to do.
Thank you for your interest.
Great explanation and results, you even figured out the Carbon curve ball for us.
So if it is O-H zincate complexes that plate to the aluminum, what would be our purpose in collecting them in such a way? Forgive me, but I don't see what advantage it would give us in the reduction cycle if the Al is consumed by the process? I think this was more of a lead then a solution... I think he showed us "a metal" to use, but not "thee" metal to use. More research to be done for sure. Also it seems to me that based on this heated air enviornment experiment, the solar heated zinc reduction facilities I've been reading about are probably releasing high levels of CO2. Real shame if you ask me.
Thanks for the great data!
~Dingus
Hi Dingus,
I am thinking of an angle here that I plan on experimenting with. Plating the aluminum with zinc may be difficult to do properly. I am thinking that as long as the aluminum is protected from the NaOH solution, that it won't be consumed so this is what I propose:
Take a zinc electrode, drill a small hole into it, and "force" an aluminum wire or electrode into the hole. Then lower the zinc/aluminum electrode into the reactor solution. This would be a protective coating of the entire zinc electrode over the aluminum. Then see what happens.
I have a feeling the zinc will replate on the zinc electrode without electrical power. Next, connect this to a tungsten electrode, but connect it on a zinc surface, not the aluminum one. This seems strange, but I am hoping by avoiding electrical contact with the aluminum electrode then the aluminum can encourage the replating of the zinc at the same time the zinc is being consumed without consuming the aluminum. I think you know what I mean.
I will try this out as soon as I get more aluminum electrodes. Probably tommorrow.
Dave
Quote from: ResinRat2 on March 11, 2007, 09:34:58 AM
Hi Dingus,
I am thinking of an angle here that I plan on experimenting with. Plating the aluminum with zinc may be difficult to do properly. I am thinking that as long as the aluminum is protected from the NaOH solution, that it won't be consumed so this is what I propose:
Take a zinc electrode, drill a small hole into it, and "force" an aluminum wire or electrode into the hole. ...
You could drill the zinc rod with the small hole the size of your aluminium wire. Then heat the zinc rod, which will expand, and then feed in the aluminium wire. When the
zinc rod cools, it will be a good tight fit with a Al wire.
Paul-R.
Hi Paul,
I'll consider this. Maybe a 250?F oven. Drill the hole in the zinc electrode just smaller than the aluminum electrode. Pop the zinc in the oven for a bit, then insert the aluminum electrode into the hot zinc and let it cool. Sounds good. I'll probably do it this way. Thanks.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on March 11, 2007, 11:25:48 AM
Hi Paul,
I'll consider this. Maybe a 250?F oven. Drill the hole in the zinc electrode just smaller than the aluminum electrode....
That may make be a very tight fit. In theory, the same size will be pretty secure.
At room temperature, you cannot get a 0.5inch shaft into a 0.5inch hole. It will
not go, whatever you do (except heating up the hole, and sweating it in, of course).
Paul.
Just a thought, when I deal with issues like this I also try and take into consideration what metallurgical properties I am up against. Paul, not a bad idea to heat one up and then you can even cool the other part down, stick it in the freezer for awhile or use a fire extinguisher on it to cool it down. I just wonder this. When you use two dissimilar metals, which one will expand first when it gets hot? If the part that you are making the hole in expands faster than the one part you are putting in the hole then you may have an issue. If it is the other way then fine you are in good shape. What temperature will this system run at when it is all said and done?
For a test mode I am sure you would have no issues like Paul said, I am just trying to think ahead is all. The more things that are brought up now, the less things that will need to be covered later.
Regards
Trump
Actually I just had a simpler thought. I'll use my tap and die set. Tap a thread in the hole and one on the electrode and Viola': just screw the aluminum electrode into the zinc. Simple.
I like simple.
Thanks for your interest.
ResinRat2,
Sometimes simple things are the hardest to find, we always look at the hard way. your way is very good idea. Simple and gives you a chance to change it if you need to.
have a good night !
Regards
Trump
Quote from: Trump on March 11, 2007, 07:47:37 PM
Just a thought, when I deal with issues like this I also try and take into consideration what metallurgical properties I am up against. Paul, not a bad idea to heat one up and then you can even cool the other part down, stick it in the freezer for awhile or use a fire extinguisher on it to cool it down. I just wonder this. When you use two dissimilar metals, which one will expand first when it gets hot?
RegardsTrump
They all vary like crazy. Here is a table from the NPL:
http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/general_physics/2_3/2_3_5.html
Paul.
Hi Everyone,
I've got some interesting results
I took a zinc electrode and drilled a hole through its top, then threaded it. Next I took a thinner aluminum electrode and tapped a thread around its end. This I inserted into the zinc electrode. Next I took a fresh solution of the NaOH, Mg, Ag, and deionized water and inserted this electrode so only the zinc was immersed. I added a tungsten electrode to the cell. This is a normal control cell except that the zinc electrode has an aluminum electrode inserted in its top. Pictures are posted below.
Normally when I connect the zinc and tungsten electrodes in a normal control cell the tungsten begins to give off hydrogen gas.
In this cell there was no activity off the tungsten or zinc. No gas at all. This is odd in itself; but what is most interesting is that if I take the connection off the zinc surface and connect the tungsten electrode and aluminum portion of the zinc/aluminum electrode, then the tungsten immediately begins giving off gas at the normal rate.
What does this mean? I don't know right now. This is new ground and I am anxious to see what happens. I know that if I put an aluminum electrode in solution that has had the reaction going for a while, that zinc hydroxide will begin to replate on the aluminum electrode, and keep going until there is a huge blob.
In this case I am not sure but my hypothesis is that the zinc will replate as it is consumed by the reaction. I am probably wrong but I don't know for sure. We will see as the time progresses.
Thank you for your interest.
ResinRat2,
Now, this is getting very interesting, looks like you may be on to something. You are really sticking with this and it will pay off, I am sure. I wish I could shed more light on the subject, but I don't have the chemistry background that you do. If you get in a situation you need something just let me know and If I can help, I will.
Regards
Trump
http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage7024.html (http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage7024.html)
AirGen Corporation to Demonstrate New Hydrogen Production Technology at NHA Exposition
Thanks deltat,
VERRRRYYY INTERESTING.
See, the small amount of volts required to regenerate the electrode tells me this reactor should work. I was replating the zinc with electrical energy with only about a half an amp. The fuel cell I will have produces over 2 amps. There should be plenty of excess energy to spare.
This is a story only on the hydrogen producing technology. Nothing about a fuel cell reactor; but I think that will be on the horizon soon. For me, probably by the end of this week or next week.
We are living in an exciting time in history everyone. The hydrogen revolution is now a train that will not be stopped. Like it says in the article, "hydrogen production on-demand without external input of energy." Dr. Linnard Griffin has done it and survived.
Welcome to the future.
This is just an update on the continuing experiment using the zinc/aluminum electrode.
The experiment has been going on a little over a day now. The hydrogen gas is still coming off the tungsten at the same rate. At this point there is really no way to tell if the zinc is replating, although when I look through the cell in front of a light I can see what appears to be "threads" or thread-like deposits clinging to the zinc electrode. This may be evidence of zinc replating but I am not sure.
I added a few more tungsten electrodes to speed up the hydrogen production and also speed up the use of zinc. This may give me evidence of replating sooner. Still, it is difficult for me to tell at this time if this is working. All I can really do is allow the reaction to continue for a longer period of time and make observations of any changes to the cell and its components.
I may take a fresh aluminum electrode and place it in the solution, just to see if any zinc replates on it. This may give me an indication as to whether the aluminum electrode in the zinc electrode is encouraging the immediate replating of the zinc.
Thank you for your interest.
Great replication of the concept! The internal Al electrode is genius! The threaded bay will make it easy to check the aluminums condition after prolonged use in the cell and absolutely ensures minimal hydroxide exposure. Also I just wanted to add that the "thread like" apearence on the zinc electrode is almost definitely reduced zinc. When this happens in commercial plating they refer to it as "zinc wiskers". Commercial electroplaters use cyanide complexes to help prevent this wisker effect. I'm quite interested to see how the rest of this specific experiment will play out.
Good Luck,
~Dingus
Hi Dingus,
I think you're right about the plating. I looked at it after coming home from work and it does look kind of grainy and hairlike threads. This looks promising. Only a long term test will tell, but this would make it simple. So I will keep this going and once the reactor you put together arrives here I will load it up and get it operating.
By the way ;D my fuel cell arrived today. Yeeessssssssss!!!!!! : ; :D
This should be an interesting period of time. I will do my best to make it work. It may take a few days to get everything put together, but it should be pretty cool.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
I can't wait to see how much wattage you can
pull when the reactor is fully loaded with tungsten...
It's going to be quite an interesting month!
;D
Hi Dingus,
I wanted to give you an update on this experiment.
I wanted to confirm that the zinc regeneration is taking place so I removed both electrodes from the solution, cleaned them all off thoroughly, then put the whole thing back together except that I now have 13 tungsten/carbide rods connected directly to the zinc portion of the zinc/aluminum electrode.
The gas started to come off the tungsten and I could see some coming off the zinc. Within a minute I held the cell up to the a light and I could see threads forming on the zinc electrode surface. There is definitely zinc replating going on. WITHOUT added power. This is great news.
When your reactor arrives I will modify it so that I can use this zinc/aluminum electrode method. I now have two fuel cells. One is small (0.95V) and the other is larger (2.5V). I think I will add them both to the reactor. I will tap the small cell power to slowly "push" the reaction in the forward direction to increase the output of hydrogen. The large cell I will use for power collection. I will see what series of small devices I can run with it.
This is a bit off the original ideas but since I have two fuel cells I figured I would try using them both to see how much power I can get out of this thing. Hopefully your reactor arrives within a day or two. I am eager to work on this.
Thank you everyone for your interest.
ResinRat2
Changed posting, Hopefully when you get your reactor things will really get exciting. Seems you are getting closer and more enthused every day ResinRat2. Keep up the good work.
Regards
Trump
Hi Dingus,
This morning I looked at the cell and it looked like it stopped giving off gas. I didn't have time to look it over much but I don't kinow why. It looks ok, no strange color or precipitate or visually obvious problems. I will look into it after I get home from work.
This looks like it is a side project that needs to be investigated further. I guess I won't modify your reactor (when it gets here) yet. I will use the wiring as I stated earlier.
I will use both fuel cells, but the smaller one I will use for zinc regeneration. The larger one I will use for pure power collection; hooking up what devices I can power off of it.
Sorry the news was not good, but that's the way research goes. It might just be something simple.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Hi Trump,
You changed your posting so I changed mine.
Have a good day.
Hi again Dingus,
I just realized that after I had cleaned the electrodes off I switched the connection to the zinc instead of to the aluminum because I thought it would increase the plating of the zinc. I remember now that it had to be connected on the aluminum to get it going. I will do this when I get home. Now I think I know why it stopped.(Duh!) :P
Just wanted to let you know.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
The only way for this to work is if there is some ionic effect from the current passing through the aluminum as the aluminum has no contact with the electrolyte. Even so it would seem that the aluminum would eventually be depleted of free electrons or whatever.
Sorry guys, I lost my temper.
Changed my post and I apologize for the rant.
Let's all just forget it happened.
Hi Dingus,
I received the reactor package today. Thanks very much.
I need to see what I have here. I may end up giving you a call later.
Thanks again.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on March 16, 2007, 07:04:35 PM
Hi Dingus,
I received the reactor package today. Thanks very much.
I need to see what I have here. I may end up giving you a call later.
Thanks again.
Please do call! I think the process of sealing the last leg needs a thurough explanation, considering its so easy to make leaky legs. (I'm a pro leaky leg maker) BTW Who is gearhead? Whats the deal with him? (sorry I've been away this week) Sorry it took the package so long to arrive... The 3 day shipping would have cost over 60 dollars! :o
I'm UBER excited to see what you accomplish here!
~Dingus
P.S. The aluminum rod may possibly be slowly oxidized, but as long as it doesn't interact with any hydroxies it should reduce just fine when the current is reversed. As far as I know though, the Al rod already has a alumina oxide coating so oxidation by air would seem to be an imposibility in my mind.
Hi Chris,
Sorry, I lost my temper; but I changed my post so its not important.
Let's just go on from here as if it never happened.
Sorry.
Hi Chris,
Sorry, I've been gone all day and just got back a few minutes ago.
Just to let you know, I plan on finishing the sealing of the zinc tubes, probably by tommorrow. I think I will use silicone sealer both inside and outside of the zinc electrodes. So that should finish that.
The tungsten electrodes I will try and seal the same way. If it holds, then it will hold. Otherwise I will try something else.
Thanks again for all your help.
Dave
Just a note: I haven't tested silicone sealer for compatability... So you may want to dip a dry bead in some solution for a few days. Also something to remember; even when a plug was snug and dry I still got air bubbles that turned in to channels once the hydroxy was introduced. So really glob it on there till you got to hammer that plug in. LOL! Sorry again that I couldn't finnish up the leg seals. My apartment complex has since backed off since I told them I shipped it all away. Thank you so much for carrying on the PVC reactor project!
I am sorry for my poorly worded post. It should have been phrased as a question. I have been following this thread for weeks. It has been very interesting. Thank you for all of your hard work and discussion.
What intrigued me was that following the addition of an aluminum electrode, the next innovation by Resin Rat was to seal the aluminum from the electrolyte with zinc. Now the aluminum is not an electrode. It must be something else. I was wondering what that something else is. Aluminum can collect free electrons from the atmosphere that tunnel through the oxide coating. Is this what is causing this new phenomenom?
Could it be acting as a diode? Is this a new principle?
That is a good question. I've used tungsten ,silicone carbide bi electrodes and had more questions about the mechanism.
Well, what is interesting is that the system has been running a few days now with the zinc/aluminum electrode. Once the connection was made to the aluminum portion (not the zinc portion) of the electrode the gas started coming off the tungsten again. There is now plenty of replated zinc "threads" all up and down the zinc surface.
Subjectively, it seems to me the rate of hydrogen production is not as fast of a rate as when there was no aluminum involved. Maybe the aluminum is balancing the zinc replating and slowing the hydrogen production rate slightly in order to keep the two in balance. I'm not sure though. I would need the reactor finished and gas rates to be studied.
Ahhh, so much to do, so little time to play with this. My wife is not too happy right now but I mentioned to her that I could have other vices (smokin, drinkin, gamblin, bar-hopping, etc....)lol. Women! Good thing I don't care that I'm going bald or I might be spending the time getting hair-plugs or sports-cars! lol!!
Thanks for your interest.
Hi Dingus,
How about this crazy idea. Two zinc electrodes in the reactor side by side (very close but not touching). One has the aluminum rod inserted and is not hooked up to anything. The other (no aluminum) is hooked to the tungsten. The theory is that the hydrogen production will not be slowed and the zinc can replate on the zinc/aluminum electrode.
Once a day the aluminum can be switched to the other zinc electrode (no connection to anything) and the now replated electrode is hooked to the tungsten.
By doing this I hope to avoid the slowing of the hydrogen production while still keeping the zinc replating at the maximum rate.
I think I will try it at home when I get a chance.
Hmmmmm...
The first thing I feel I should say is that the proximity of the two zinc electrodes to one another is much less important then the proximity of tungsten to zinc. Since the zinc rods will never play the role of both anode and cathode at the same time and circuit, they must only be close to there opposites to lower the amperage comsumed during reduction. BTW I have to run some more tests, and I was getting a slow trickle of reduction bubbles at .7 volts... which is less then the self potential of the cell... Anyone know what that means?
The close proximity of the zinc electrodes is only to facilitate quick reduction. Oxidized from the electrode without the aluminum, almost instantly reduced by the electrode with the aluminum. That was my thinking on the zinc, not that one would be anode and the other cathode.
As far as your low voltage regeneration experiments:
http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage7024.html
Posted by deltat earlier. Notice only 0.9 volts is indicated to regenerate the zinc electrode. This is close to your results. Good Job Chris.
To be honnest... I'm more interested in your zinc whisker progress. Please send us some pics when the replating whiskers are readily visable on your cam. I wonder if this was Dr. Griffin's intentions...
Sorry Chris, couldn't get good pictures of the threads. They only showed up well with a backlight and my camera shows it too dark and fuzzy. They were all up and down the electrode.
I then added triple the Mg and Ag colloids to try and speed the reaction. No good. The solubility of the cell was altered and I started to get precipitates. The cell turned a darker reddish color and conglomerations of solids formed all over the solution. There was no room left to add anything else so I ended the experiment, pulled and cleaned everything out.
Observations:
During this experiment with the zinc/aluminum electrode I noticed the cell was cleaner, none to very little precipitate was on the bottom and the zinc electrode seemed to keep its size appearance. Once the zinc electrode was wiped off the threads/replated material wiped off as well. At that point the zinc electrode seemed thinner; so using the aluminum/zinc seemed (subjectively) to keep the replating going at the same rate as the zinc consumption. This needs to be investigated further, but it looked promising.
Also, to be noted, the hydrogen rate did seem to slow once the aluminum rod was introduced into the experiment. This may imply that the reaction may have been slowed to allow the zinc to replate at the rate it was used. This would be my guess but it needs to be confirmed with further testing. Also of note, the aluminum rod did not seem to be consumed or pitted at all in the threaded area that was in contact with the zinc. This may not show up with the naked eye though. Perhaps visible microscopically, but no microscope was available. The inside zinc threads could not be seen or examined for consumption or pitting.
Based off these results I will build the reactor to allow use of the aluminum rod in further testing. The advantage of having the zinc replate at the same rate it is consumed means no reverse current needs to be applied to regenerate the zinc, though this appears to have the disadvantage of slowing the rate of hydrogen production. This may be offset by increasing the surface area of the tungsten so that the hydrogen production rate can be brought to an acceptable level. Another possibility is the introduction of a second zinc electrode to be used as a "replating" electrode (with aluminum) to allow the forward hydrogen reaction to return to its normal rate. This is to be designed and tested in the future.
Once again, it must be emphasized that all observations and rates were subjectively reported. No quantitative measurements were taken. Only operator opinion was used in the reporting of these results.
Next step: Testing of the PVC reactor.
Thank you for your interest.
Hi everyone, Just in case you thought I was full of BS read this on Zigouras Racing:
http://blog.waterforfuel.com/2007/03/17/sky-driver-airlines-dropping-you-off-exactly-where-you-need-to-be.aspx#Comment
As you can see the US has it head in the ground like an osterage, hoping things will just get better somehow. I was really counting on Zigs too come through, since Hypowerfuel.com seems to have stopped for some reason also. waterforfuel.com is so close to getting things working I hope he makes it. I need more time and money always too broke to get things done in a timely fashion. Gas where I am is 335 a gallon now, just because, for there is no Huricain, or full scale war to blaim this time. The weather is good, we are at peace, just helping that country to get on their feet, so why the big increase in fuel prices?
It just makes me angry to see technology being supresst, and we really need it now. To many people are going without power that have families to raise, but the cost of living just is too much for them too bare.
Meyer's technology really works, it just needs some fine tunning is all. High voltage and low current do a number to water, Zigs was electrolizing aproximently two gallons a minute, and that's way more than any car would need to run on. I want to save our oil for it is needed to make plastics or do we want a clay TV box ???. I hate the way things are looking for it seems we have no future pass 2025, and the Government is fine with that, go figure.
Ok, H2O please relax. You write like you are in a panic.
I saw a video where Stan Meyers admitted that the US government knew all about how his technology worked (for national security reasons), so you can be sure we are in no danger of running out of an energy supply. Everything that is happening with oil is completely controlled and planned, the oil bigwigs have no intention of letting their product cash-cow run dry. They will extend it and rake us well past our lifetimes.
What you need to do is concentrate on the BALL. Work toward the goal, and keep your results open-sourced so anyone can get the information and use it themselves. The only thing that prevents the spreading of useful technology is human greed. Human Beings change and adapt, it's what we do best.
There are dozens and dozens of people on this forum alone that are working independently on research. Think how many are actually doing it all over the planet. Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean nothing is going on. Just relax man, not all humans just sit at home, drink beer, watch TV, and party every free chance they get. They are large and small groups of dedicated researchers that have many avenues of alternatives that will work.
We won't run out of power as quickly as you think. Just think of all the panic before Y2K. Yet everyone adapted and prepared. It is just human nature, just as long as we keep our cool and don't panic.
Big Oil has a great deal of power and influence locked up; but they still want to make money and build wealth. You can't sell products and profit from people who are broke and have no jobs. We still all need each other. Events are just progressing so they can keep their big profits at the maximum. That means controlling what technology gets out and when it is used.
So relax and keep your eyes on the BALL! Don't worry about it and just keep working. The year 2025 is still over 17 YEARS off. Can you imagine how much the world will change in 17 years. So stay cool man 8); and keep working.
That was very well said ResinRat. and true on all points.
So 17 years of being able to make plastic's is just fine by you two, huh? My kids will still be in high school, but who cares now days it's every man for himself. So lets just forget our children and use it all up they will make due somehow, right? So self centered, so me me me, I am really supprized with you on this one Ironhead.
I am somewhat concerned since I was really helping them out, with information sharing on the site. So you can see my concerns now, right ???
Well, I'm off for a bit. I will try and share, but not sure if that's a good idea, since no one is going to be able to use it anyways, guess I'll just give up, for what's the point?
At this point I can picture two soldiers on a battlefield, one is babbling about giving up and the other is trying to calm him down. The next scene I picture is the babbling soldier getting SLAPPED HARD ACROSS THE FACE two or three times to try and bring him to his senses. After a few seconds the babbling soldier has a rifle shoved into his hands. "Here!", shouts the other soldier, "Quit your belly-achin' and start shooting!" as he shoves the stunned soldier forward into the fray.
Giving up is not an option; we have families who we want to see grow up and have families of their own. We all want a better world free of war, hunger, and uncertainty; and we do our best to bring it about. I just know events and situations can change quickly, and the best way to handle these situations is to keep fighting. I don't care what the doomsayers have to say. They are not gods, and they don't know everything either.
GIVE UP! PHOOEY! LIKE HECK I"LL GIVE UP!
I have a family to protect and support.
Now if you will excuse me, I have work to do.
Great to hear from you Mike, I really appreciate it. Sometimes I feel like I'm out in left-field, but everybody is working on their own projects. You are the electrical expert. Me? I can't even design a system with a capacitor correctly without help. Scheese!
The picture of my assembled prototype is attached. I will start cementing the connections soon, once I work out the mounting of the zinc electrode and the tungsten. That is next. Things are going slow because I couldn't get the first reactor to seal correctly. I ended up scrapping the design and starting over. Sorry Dingus, couldn't get it to seal right. Too many problems. A lot of wasted material.
As you can see it is coming along. Slow but steady.
Thank you for your interest; AND DON'T EVER GIVE UP! That's what the opposition really wants. >:( >:( >:(
Well, even I must say thanks for the slapin, lol. But I have not totally given up, just given up on people to do the right thing. And also trying to fight the greedy is not something one person can do alone, they are bigger than our government and seems to tell them what to do. But a question for you. How does it make you feel, ResinRat2, when you see a company like Zigouras Racing get threated and then brought out?
This is my latest project should be completed very soon.
Simply put, it's a water capacitor, it's function is to break down water into hydrogen and oxygen at a rate that should be able to run a cars engine. It still has to be tested, but the rendering was to just show the case and not fully the internal workings. It's my design solution to how I see Meyer's technology working at it's best. Since I can't figure out the spark plug thing, this will have to do.
It also shows that I have not given up, just feel so sad in what happen to Zigouras racing. And more to the point that no one seems to care about what happened them :'(.
Alright h2O! ;D glad to see you come out shootin"!!!
Let's all kick some a**!!!
Hi Mike,
Clear PVC at:
http://www.clearpvcpipe.com
It's not cheap though.
http://my.opera.com/h2earth/blog/
Pese
Informations only.
Hi All we need to move this back to the Meyer's topic, I will copy the site to start it off.
Just an update.
What I was trying to accomplish with the latest reactor design was to produce hydrogen at a good rate, put it through a fuel cell and continually produce electricity. I also wanted the zinc electrode to continuously regenerate using the zinc/aluminum design.
The results show this design did not work. The hydrogen was produced at such a slow rate that no rate reading could be obtained. It just came off very, very slowly. It is believed that the aluminum electrode is slowing the reaction down so much that it is making it impractical. As a consequence the fuel cell was never added because there was very little hydrogen flow.
I am scrapping this reactor design and going back to the concept of a four-electrode reactor. One pair of electrodes will continually produce hydrogen and the other pair will be used for zinc regeneration. This means the reactor needs to be larger and rebuilt. This is the next step.
Hi Mike,
I have one last angle to try before I add the electronics idea.
Two of the electrodes (one tungsten/carbide and the other a zinc) will be producing the hydrogen at the normal rate, this will give me the power to run something from the fuel cell. To the other zinc electrode I will attach an aluminum wire or rod to encourage the regeneration of the zinc on this electrode without power. I plan on just switching the connection to the zinc electrodes once/day so no zinc electrode gets depleted.
If this works then I won't need any electronics for a long term test.
I greatly appreciate your offer and I still may take you up on it. We shall see.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Possibly a better source for reactor building material.
Just glue together with thick acrylic cement.
I believe I will try it in the future.
http://www.professionalplastics.com/cgi-bin/main/co_disp/displ/cmid/4/prrfnbr/85259
Thank you for your interest.
If you use Acrylic , Cell Cast Acrylic with 2 part "WeldOn" adhesive for Cell Cast is very good.
I have tried this as the final and best result of many combinations.
Standard Lexan and Plexiglas with inferior glues will produce much trash in the electrolyte.
The best of the best would be Teflon sheet but at a very high price and is not clear as you may know.
Also depending on your electrolyte and heat levels , you may in time see the Acrylic begin to etch and become opaque.
Just Build It
IronHead
Sounds interesting ResinRat, I wish you the best of luck, and look forward to your progress reports :)
IronHead,
Thanks for the suggestions on the adhesive.
The chemical resistance chart for the acrylic is attached below.
It looks good for Sodium Hydroxide and the various acids used in Linnard Griffin's Patent.
I would have had the four-electrode reactor going last night but it developed a leak, which I resealed and needs to dry. Maybe by tonight or tomorrow. This sucker is a bit larger than I really want. Holds about a gallon of water, but I wanted to do some long-term testing and I needed the size to fit four electrodes easily. The next one will be a smaller box made with the acrylic.
Thanks for the encouragement h2o. I just want to get something going. This research has been going on for a while now with little to show for it but a load of mistakes and failures. (I mean, knowledge gained. lol) I feel like I am finally on the threshold of a working unit that can be used for long-term (months) electrical power production, running off just ambient temperature energy. This ought to be cool.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Thanks for the good info ResinRat, for now I know I can passivate my stainless in the container.
Metal Passivation
Passivation is the process of making a material "passive" in relation to another material prior to using the materials together. For example, prior to storing hydrogen peroxide in an aluminium container, the container can be passivated by rinsing it with a dilute solution of nitric acid and peroxide alternating with deionized water. The nitric acid and peroxide oxidizes and dissolves any impurities on the inner surface of the container, and the deionized water rinses away the acid and oxidized impurities.
Now this is for everyone, for the metals to produce gases well they have to be prep first. If not the bubles will stick to the sides and act like an insulator, impeding gas production.
Hi Everyone,
I got the reactor mounted and patched up and tested with water. No Leaks!! :o LOL.
I will be mixing up the reactor solution tommorrow, getting too late tonight already.
Just for everyone's interest, I obtained a picture of Dr. Linnard Griffin during his Texas Hydrogen Show display a couple of weeks ago. Now we can all see the face behind the genius and his company Airgen. He is the white-haired gentleman and the reactor in front of him is running seven fuel cells. (Yes, I said SEVEN) There are other smaller reactors in the picture that are running other devices too.
This is just a hint of the potential. Can you imagine the desert areas that are part of the United States; areas that are useless to us and provide no natural resourses? Can you imagine rows and rows of large Airgen-type reactors producing electricity and running off the hot desert ambient air temperature; producing no pollution and using no fuel. Just running off the hot desert sun?
Can you imagine your electric car with an Airgen-type generator under the hood that charges your batteries as it sits; generating electricity off the ambient air temperature? Can you imagine a world where every electrical device has an Airgen-type reactor that is small but charges your device's batteries just by sitting idle? Sucking air energy.
Can you imagine a world where oil is obsolete? I can. I am building a small prototype right in my home, and I will see it working soon.
Can you imagine the future? I can.
Thank you Dr. Griffin, the world will thank you some day soon as well.
Hi ResinRat,
many thanks for posting this very nice picture and please keep us updated on
your building progress !
Makes me happy to see something finally come together !
Best regards, Stefan.
ResinR, Are you using the same ingredients and ratios with which you started?
Do you feel that the rods need to be the same or approximate diameters?
Thank you for doing this work and for being open with it.
Hi Yikes,
The ratios of the chemicals are the same as Experiment #13 in the patent. I tried vaying each one. By increasing the NaOH I found that it changed the solubility and caused precipitation of one (or possibly both) of the colloids. I believe it was the silver that started to kick out but I'm not sure. I also tried increasing the magnesium colloid because, based off the chemical equations in the patent, it looked like it was the one that encouraged the regeneration of the zinc. This is the chemical reaction that has the slowest rate, so I tried to speed it up by increasing the concentration and shifting the equilibrium of the cell to favor zinc regeneration. This did not noticeably work, and eventually the magnesium concentration was so high that it too began to cause preciptitation in the cell. Then it began to slow down the hydrogen generation rate. This was not good either. So after all my grunt work I found that the original concentrations given in the patent worked the best for that system.
As far as the diameters of the electrodes. I found that when I increased the area of the tungsten/carbide electrodes (actually I am using 2%thoriated because it was the only one available here in my area) from 1/16" diameter to 1/8" diameter that the rate of the hydrogen production increased. Also by adding more rods, the rate increased as well. So by having the total surface area of the tungsten rods larger than the zinc area you have an increase in the hydrogen production rate.
So my advice is to have the tungsten area larger than the zinc. Larger diameter tungsten rods seem to work better as well.
That's all I can say so far on that subject.
My cell is almost ready. I am trying to secure the fuel cells and funnel. I want everything steady and working and draining properly. So progress is coming along, just not as fast as I would like. Now we have the Easter Holiday so I am busy here on this as well. Very soon I will be producing my own small bit of electricity; a long-term test will begin shortly.
I do miss Dingus Mungus's input. I haven't heard from him in a while.
Thank you everyone for your interest.
ResinR,
Thank you.
The posts between you and Mingus were exciting reading. I hope they continue. Are you satisfied with your fuel cell? You did change to H/O from H/air, right?
Sorry Yikes,
I never used it and I don't know anything about it.
If you find out something relevant then please let me know.
Thanks for your interest.
Sorry ResinR,
I realized it was a stupid question and changed the text, but you beat me to the post.
Well I got the reactor going, but the hydrogen output is very disappointing. Here is the big gallon and a half reactor and when I hook the fuel cell to it I get a dinky 0.330 volts output. Not even enough to run my small demonstration fan. Oh well. I can't get a good reading for the amps so my guess is its very piddly. I really can't even get a good idea of gas output. It looks like it is producing a steady stream of hydrogen gas, but I just don't get any good rate.
The only way I can boost this thing's output right now is to probably purchase about $300 worth of tungsten rods. I am not sure I want to do that at this point. I really don't understand what my problem is. Dr. Griffin has all these small reactors running all kinds of gadgets. Maybe I need to concentrate on building a small enclosed unit with very little headspace. That way a small amount of gas makes a big difference in volume vs pressure.
I only built the large reactor because I wanted to experiment with the four-electrode design and at the time the only way I knew how do that was with 3 inch clear PVC. Now since then I've learned that clear acrylic is probably the better way to go. Oh boy, more expense. I've spent big bucks on this project so far and I am wondering if I want to invest more at this point. Don't mind my ranting (lol) I'm used to complaining at my failures.
Back to the drawing board. I ordered a few sheets of the clear acrylic so I will concentrate on that as the next stage of this project. All of Dr. Griffin's reactors look small so I will build several small ones, load them up with all the tungsten(2% thoriated) I can and see if the smaller headspace can give me a better rate output. I will see also if I can order tungsten/carbide rods over the internet. They will probably work better.
Sorry for the bad news, but research has a tendency to bring out multiple failures. I just hope everyone can learn from my experiments and steer clear from my failures. This failure was caused, I believe, by using too large of a reactor, which gives too large of a headspace. Small is the way to go. I like small. Should be interesting.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Yes ,go with the smaller container and pack it , big difference in output.I have been dealing with this guy for rods , he has super prices and fast shipping.
If you have a problem getting the rods ,let me know I have a few hundred I can part with a bunch.
Buy your Acrylic on ebay to, you can get scrap for cheap cheap
http://stores.ebay.com/welders4less
Thanks, I need to laugh right now. :D :D :D What the heck is the matter with me lately. OF COURSE smaller would be better. Less gas volume makes a larger difference in pressure. Scheesh!!! Duh!!
Ok everybody, we all know now that ResinRat does NOT have a high IQ. :D
I can, however, learn from my failures.
Well at least we can all get a good laugh out of this. :D
Thanks everyone for your interest. :D
Quote from: mramos on April 06, 2007, 06:55:28 PM
Ahh.
So your low IQ explains why you did not understand my electronics talk...
But why did I not understand your chemistry talk? ;)
Sounds like you are trying to hard. Just go slower. Sounds like you have went a long way from the original #13. Maybe go back to that one and start again.
OK OK OK -- So you have a low IQ too Mike --- (lol) --- about time you admitted it!! (LOL)
No. I see where the problem is simple PV=nRT. Raise the volume, lower the pressure. Tha gassie no come out fastie. Sorry, I'm in a strange mood right now. I just put in days and days of work on this reactor and wasted my time. Dumb mistake, but it happens.
Time to get back on the horse. YYYEEEEHHHHAAAA!!!
I'm sure not quitting!!! HA!
They'll have to kill me! (unless my wife does first)!
We are watching you!
Quote from: SGi on April 06, 2007, 08:33:35 PM
We are watching you!
Can you smell me too??? ;D
You cooking something over there R-Rat?
opps I see now
Just Smile
IronHead
Quote from: ResinRat2 on April 06, 2007, 08:29:03 PM
OK OK OK -- So you have a low IQ too Mike --- (lol) --- about time you admitted it!! (LOL)
And my IQ is so low I've been laying low...
Sorry I've been MIA for a few weeks, but I was 'legally' asked to stop
doing any hydrogen related research in my apartment. LOL... I tried to
tell them it was safe, but lawyers don't really care. Worry not though...
Once I get set to move again, I'll be 100% back in the game!
Keep up the awesome work and I look foreward to digging in!
Till then I'll be popping in to read up on the progress...
I miss working with you guys,
~Dingus Mungus
Dude ! good luck.
we will be here when you get back
Hi Chris,
Welcome back buddy. Sorry you had "legal" issues but hopefully they get resolved for you soon.
Just as an update:
The last reactor I built was about a gallon size out of a combination clear 3" PVC and regular Schedule 40 PVC fittings. I loaded it with the tungsten(2%thoriated) I had and it gave off a constant stream of gas, but the rate it came out of the reactor was slow. I believe by having the larger volume that the gas came out in irregular spurts, like seven or eight bubbles at a time, then nothing for a minute, then seven or eight bubbles again, then nothing for a couple of minutes, etc., etc. Gas is not like liquid, it can compress so its pressure in a larger volume came out inconsistantly. You can read the earlier posts and see what a feeble electrical output it had.
Also I want to mention that the electrolyte solution showed evidence of starting to form "junk" at the surface of the solution. My guess is that the PVC began to deteriorate in some way. Even though the clear PVC was guaranteed to me to be able to take up to a 50% concentration of NaOH solution, I think the regular PVC fittings may have begun to deteriorate. I think IronHead mentioned that this would probably happen somewhere on this site, so I am scrapping this reactor and going to the clear acrylic plexiglass type of material that Dr. Griffin mentioned he used to build his reactors.
I will make the reactors small, so headspace is small and gas volume will transfer quickly without longer compression times. I may also buy extra tungsten(2%thoriated) to boost output if needed. My design is simple, small, and box-shaped. I will also be incorporating the aluminum insert rod to regenerate the zinc without power. I plan on having two zinc electrodes very close to each other (but not touching). One will be used normally and connected to the tungsten bundle so the reaction proceeds at the normal rate. The other zinc will have the aluminum rod threaded into its middle to encourage regeneration of the zincates on that electrode. That way the hydrogen reaction never is slowed, and the zinc is constantly regenerated on the other electrode. I will simply switch the connection (copper on one, aluminum on the other) of the zinc electrodes once a day to keep any electrode from depleting.
This will be my long-term test reactor, and it should give a constant output that I will use to run some small device without batteries involved at all. The water will recycle back into the reactor as well. I will post pictures when it is completed
That's my update and future plans. I think, based off the pictures of what Dr. Griffin has been able to accomplish, I have a good feeling about this idea. Dr. Griffin's pictures look like he may actually have already gotten this type of concept to work, so I am sure it will work. It's just a matter of getting the design correct.
I await my plexiglass with great anticipation.
Thanks for your interest everyone.
Quote from: yikes on April 06, 2007, 01:24:02 PM
Are you satisfied with your fuel cell? You did change to H/O from H/air, right?
Sorry Yikes, I missed this question. I am using the H/air fuel cell. This was simpler and allows me to simplify the reactor design.
I'll be back...
and looking for updates!
See you gentlemen then...
You guys have probably seen this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_21KafrwRc
He dosant use electricity to liborate browns gas. but as you can see, He is getting nice volume from what ever his electrolite and metal compound is.
I work on the high voltage aspect and am way out of my environment in this area. But we are all working to achieve the same goal, To use water as a fuel.
@ Resinrat and all.
Nice work mates! Moab
I never saw this video before, but the electrolytes don't appear to be hazardous to his skin, since he is pouring all the liquid and handling the solids with his bare hands. This guy's ripe for a buyout! (lol).
Thanks Moab.
I've seen the original cut of that experiment...
Its Chemalloy cells. Just add water and chemalloy.
The real big problem with that system is that the
Chemalloy breaks down over time, and can not be
reduced back in to the alloy. Production of the alloy
requires a lot of metals, heat, and catalysts.
Several steps behind the system in developement here.
Well, I have my little water test started.Ã, It will take me some time to get up to your speed, but everyone starts somewhere.Ã, I tried to find locally the supplies needed and came up short, but I didn't want to wait any longer.Ã, So I "made do".Ã, I could only get 10ppm silver, so I used 160ml in a 400ml test.Ã, I could not get magnesium, except in tablet form so it's desolved not colloidal,,,yeah, I know,,,but I wanted to get going.Ã, My welding supplier didn't have tungstan, I was shocked.Ã, I'll get it off the web (they now have lanthiated tungstan, I'll try some of those also.Ã, So I used three stainless bolts.Ã, And couldn't get zinc, except as zinc plated bolts.Ã, I got some 1 1/4 clear tubing and bent it in a U .Ã, Drilled holes in 2 corks.Ã, Put a bolt through one hole, cut a piece of copper tubing, put it in another hole, and connected the copper tube to clear tubing to vent into a water bottle.Ã, I put an aluminum washer under the head of the zinc bolt just to see if that would do anything and I had copper wire coming from each bolt head so that I could connect them together or add an AA battery.Ã, I didn't expect much because of these short cuts and that's what I got.Ã, But I did get bubbles...lol.Ã,Â
I was surprised that the siver coated the zinc bolt, didn't expect that.Ã, But when I added the AA battery the silver started coming off.Ã, As long as the stainless and the zinc were connected, I had bubbles coming off the zinc even with the battery.Ã, With the battery connected I had bubbles coming off the stainless.Ã, The different sizes of bubbles were interesting (very tiny off the stainless, larger off the zinc).Ã, H is smaller than O, huh :)Ã, Ã, Because I had the vent tubes going into a water bottle, pressure built up on the stainless side and created more head room there.Ã, The zinc side had about 1/4 inch of foam on top, which surprised me.Ã, Tried to attach a pic, but failed.
The biggest change (which delighted me) was the way now that I look at water.Ã, It has changed.Ã, It is not now normal.Ã, There is more to it.Ã, I like that.
Hi Yikes,
Welcome to the great adventure of colloidal catalyzed ambient temperature generated electrolysis. (cool huh?). Actually, your jar should always be cool, below room temperature; and you will see that the temperature never gets warm. This is the endothermic result of the reaction. It is drawing 'free'ly available energy from the air around it, and is powering the reaction.
I am SO glad to see someone else begin doing experimentation on this project. Dingus will be out of this for a while due to his landlord legally stopping him from experimenting in his apartment; but I am no longer alone (on this forum at least).
At this point all I can tell you is to observe everthing you see and write it down in a notebook right now. Date every page, and draw plenty of sketches, or take pictures. I am very interested in your setup. I can't quite picture it from your description so keep trying to post. You sound like you may have problems with the aluminum washer, this is very reactive with the NaOH solution and cannot be stopped until the washer is gone. I may be wrong, because I am not sure if your setup has the washer in contact with the solution. Also, you zinc bolts won't last more than a day before the zinc coating eats away and exposes the metal underneath. Then you won't be able to stop the hydrogen production from both electrodes. You really need zinc anode rods. (boatzincs.com)
Please keep us updated, and maybe you and I can bounce results off each other and learn from our successes and failures. I have been posting my notes as much as I can, and right now I am waiting on the plexiglass material for the fuel cell reactor (rediculously going on three weeks right now). I have learned so much over these few months. From what materials to use for reactor building, to what chemicals and electrodes work. Read over my posts and learn from my failures. They can save you some steps.
I have been doing a test with the aluminum rod as an insert in the zinc electrode, and it does appear to regenerate the zinc without power and without pitting the aluminum rod. This is the way to regenerate the zinc and I will use it for my long term test. My son and I have been bouncing ideas and have come up with a reactor design that should work. We have also identified the weakness in my previous reactors. Dumb mistakes. I have learned that the reactors need to be completely air tight, with no openings to the atmosphere. All the pressure needs to be forced through the hydrogen tube.
Everyone will see the reactor once it is built. PM me if you want to discuss something or have questions. Welcome aboard. :)
ResinRat2,
I have not checked in for awhile , been busy reading some of Nikola Tesla's patents, they are interesting. Anyway it looks like you are still at it and seem to be doing good. I am very interested in what you are doing. If you reach a point that you feel you would like more people doing some testing then I can jump in and see what I can do.
Deepest Regards
Trump
Hi Trump,
Thanks for offering to help. My clear acrylic material is finally scheduled to arrive tommorrow, so I will finally begin building the reactor. Might take a few days or so. In the meantime no one can really help me directly, but if you have any ideas then go ahead and post them. I am open for suggestions and observations.
It certainly took me a while to get to this point, but I still feel like I am taking baby steps in the dark. --- lol. :D
Learning test number 2.
I went to Walmart, got a 5 compartment tackle box 4"x9"x1", cut 1" off the dividers between compartment 1 and 2, and 4 and 5, center was left alone. Drilled some holes in the 1" top. Put 3 SS deck screws in compartment 1 and 4, put a zinc 20d nail in compartment 2 and 5. Put a short piece of copper tube in 1 and 4. Put copper wires to the screw and nail. Sealed the edges with epoxy glue, closed the top and weighted it down and left it for 2 days. Tonight I filled it with solution, attached tubing to the copper stubs and took it out to the lawn mower. Started the mower and turned in the gas metering screw until the mower was running very rough, barely able to keep going. Pulled off the air filter and put the tubes in the manifold. Twisted the copper wires together and waited. I was not getting very many bubbles (I'm glad about that)because I failed to clean the coating off the screws. But the motor smoothed out and ran normal. After 15 minutes I shut off the gasolene. The motor ran for 20 minutes and died. There were way too few bubbles to keep the motor running so it stopped because fuel was used up in that had been in the fuel bowl. But, there were enough bubbles that it helped the motor run. I will be doing some more tests like this in the next three days.
Now RnR, I know that this is not the testing that you are doing here, but I needed to get to know hydrogen a little better and this seemed a decent way.
I wasted yesterday trying to find tungsten carbide drill bits. What I was looking for were 1/8" x 4". I wanted to see if the design of a drill bit would be any value in getting the hydrogen bubbles off the tungsten rod. I had thought to punch several bits through a copper plate and place that at the bottom with a copper wire coming out the bottom. Sadly I couldn't find any except for micro bits that were only 1 1/2" tall. So for now I will just get the welding rods. Like I said, it will take some time for me to catch up, but I haven't left. Hope that you are having fun with plastic. I am anxious to see your design configuration.
yikes
It was good to see your post. Is your intention to make a hydrogen unit so you can run a motor on it, or are you just doing that for now and then, change over and concentrate on what ResinRat2 is focused on? Just by what you did it appears to me that you have some knowledge on the hydrogen stuff. Hopefully it will work out so both can benefit from the testing.
Trump
Hi Trump,
I'm just waiting for the "stuff" to arrive. But until then, I want to keep my fingers in water. I have other interests as well, but in this thread it's all about the work that RnR is doing. And just between you and me, I even dragged out my old "Chem 101" books so that maybe I won't embarrass myself toooooo badly. I will have 3 months without work soon and it is my hope that I can do some of the mundane type of testing that can eat up time, which will be fun for me and hopefully a help to RnR.
Great yikes,
Sounds like there is a couple of forums that are really doing good, This one and also Free Solid State/mechanical Energy forum. I am still reading a lot about Nikola Tesla Patents. I am keeping my eyes open on both forums, at this time. I don't have a chemistry background, sorry to say. I watch and listen at this time. ResinRat2 has really did a lot of work on this forum. There has been some slow times ,but even so he has stuck with it. I have no doubt that he will get it to work, how much will it generate when he is done, well that is a question that I am sure nobody knows at this time.
God bless all of you working on this project.
Trump
Hi Yikes,
There is no way you're going to run a motor off your unit. I think the number 1 liter/min keeps going through my mind. I read it somewhere, that is the minimum you will need to run a small motor. Dr. Griffin has a video of a 350ml/min reactor posted on the web. The reactor is a 100 ml reactor, so even that wouldn't run a motor, and it is coming off at a violently vigorous rate.
I doubt this system will be for anything except using a fuel cell to produce electricity. That way it is a ambient-energy electricity generator. Free-energy, but more experimenting needs to be done to get a really good gas production rate.
My reactor pieces are cut and ground down. I need to cement them together next. I am trying to find the Weld-on #40 that IronHead recommended. I will simplify it at first to just produce hydrogen into a fuel cell. The next step will be to seal it completely with the fuel cell inside the unit. It will be a few days before I post again. I work slow and methodical so have patience with me until I get it working.
Thank you for your interest.
ResinRat2
You must be working on your reactor? I am sure you will be excited to get this one going as it seemed to me that you were on the right track, from what you were saying about the large reactor versus the small reactor. This is not a loaded question, but is there any calculations on what output power range can be achieved with the small reactor? Is the Hydrogen generator large enough to do what you need or do you feel that you may need to have a larger one? I would imagine that you will run the reactor for awhile once you get it going. Kind of interested in the temperature and things like that once it gets going. I am sure you have investigated the temperature ,but this is the first small reactor so everything may be new? Just to let you know I am here supporting you. I am thinking positive for you. You have come a long ways.
Regards
Trump
Hi Trump,
I really can't give any numbers until the unit is tested. I attached a picture of the construction so far.(Just so you know I'm not just sitting on my butt and all talk, lol) Not much to get excited about, just a box 3" X 3" X 6" made out of clear acrylic. It will be a few days before it is finally assembled. There won't be much to talk about until I get it going for a few days -- need to work out any flaws, bugs, faults, mistakes, etc., etc.
The picture at the bottom shows a two dimensional drawing of a side view of the reactor. The divider between the two electrode chambers will consist of three plates joined together. The one on the left will have holes drilled downward at 45 degrees. The center plate will have holes drilled straight across, and the right will have holes drilled upward at 45 degrees. The holes will be lined up with each other to allow free flow of electrolyte solution between the chambers, but no gas will pass between them. This will allow the hydrogen and oxygen gases to remain seperate from each other, so no oxygen contaminates the fuel cell.
I will connect the tungsten and zinc on the outside of the reactor with copper wire.
I appreciate your support and interest. All I am doing here is testing a long term concept. Will it continuously put out power and last and last. From my lab tests, I believe so. We shall see!
Dave(RR2)
Hi guys,
Brand new to this forum and the overunity as a whole. I have spent two days reading the last forty pages of posts and am pretty well up to date. Im a high school junior but im in sophomore college level chemistry and will probably be able to solve any chemistry aspects you may need, and if i cant i can almost definetely get answers. I am going to attempt and recreate ResinRats results as my final. I wont be able to get up and running for a little while but am extremely interested in this subject, specifically this experiment. Any assistance I can give you guys, ill try. Just if anyone has the time can you give me a brief "laundry list" of the stuff i need to get the experiment itself going without the reactor section. Also does anyone have any ideas on how practical we can make this reactor? What are the possibilities for increasing h2 output and effectively increasing productivity of the cell? Increase # of rods/surface area, etc. any ideas would be great to get started and yes i realize that you are only attempting to get a working prototype but just on a theoretical basis what ideas do you have, specifically, resinrat. thanks,
Glad to finally post after all that reading.
I also wanted to just defer as much respect to your guys as is possible. This idea is brilliant and I would have never thought of it. This is trully a groundbreaking step towards the end of fossil-fuels and i would be grateful if i could be part of it. Thanks to all for all your hard work, talk to you later.
Hi Trackdude,
I must say, I am impressed son. I was in advanced chemistry (independent study) in high school, but not at the college level. You have a great potential, I hope you stick it out.
The patent is a good place to go for your 'laundry list". Dr. Griffin's patent gives detailed experiments. All my work has been with experiment#13 which is base-catalyzed, but I believe the experiments with acid/aluminum will give you the best rates. Specifically, look at experiment #22, which uses the acids/aluminum/zinc combination with zinc sulfate heptahydrate and the silver/magnesium colloids. I believe this will give the best rate out of those listed on the patent. I just avoided using the acids because I am doing this work at home.
Most of all, please wear your safety equipment and don't do anything careless. These chemicals can burn or blind you or damage your lungs, so use safety precautions first. Discuss this with your instructor(s) please! A safety hood with good ventilation is a must for you. Please don't hurt yourself son. I have over 20 years experience working with hazardous chemicals. You need to talk to your instructor and make sure someone experienced is watching what you do.
Due to your work in advanced chemistry, you should be able to get access to the chemicals you need through the lab staff at your school. The colloids can all be bought at health food stores. Tungsten-carbide is the only ingrediant I have not been able to readily obtain so far. Thoriated tungsten is not as productive but it is available through welding supply outlets. It's not cheap either. Zinc anodes can be obtained online from boatzincs.com.
If you want to make this as your final, then be sure to discuss this with your instructor and show him the patent. I was able to get a small unit going rather quickly by just following the ingrediants and amounts of experiment #13. Somewhere in this thread all the components are listed and the patent is linked near the beginning.
As far as increasing the rate, you can accelerate the reaction with electrical energy. This will cause plating so by switching the connections periodically you can keep the reaction going by first producing one gas (say hydrogen) then the other (say oxygen). You can increase the surface area of the cathode (tungsten) and this will increase your hydrogen rate. You can also raise the temperature of the electrolyte solution, this will also increase your rate. Putting it outside on a hot day should also increase your rate.
I plan on packing my small reactor with as much tungsten or nickel as I can. This should give me a good rate of hydrogen production. Everything else I have posted, and I will continue to post as I go. I want anyone to be able to learn from my failures as well.
I bet as soon as you get your first working cell you will get excited. It is a fascinating experience to see this reaction working on its own. You will be looking straight into the future of power generation, and the technology that will cut the strangle-hold that oil has on us right now.
Thank you for your interest.
Hey Resin Rat ,have you checked your local welding supply shop for Tungsten-carbide
It comes in powder and rod form.
Also if you do anything more with Acrylic , check you loacal sign shop they have tons of large piece scrap.
Thanks IronHead.
Hey its me again i drew up a diagram of what i think the cell should look like. I did definetley adapt your idea of keeping the gases seperate but allowing for the concentrations to be constant. However I was curious if you needed the cell to be open to get more O2 to the fuel cell i dont know the consumption rate but you would run out unless the consumption rate is exactly equall to the rate of the O2 being given off which is probable, however what about the initial time and the time to get the O2 from the reaction vessel to the fuel cell? Also I am going to be attempting to build a 3D model on a cad program and unfortunately i need dimensions of the materials in order to do so, if you have time could you give me what your using and ill try and build the model and get a picture ASAP? Also for the reproduction aspect on my end for the replating of zn what is most effective for you so far? Is it still the Al, if so do you start it with the copper wire to the Al or first on the Zn until the aqueous concentration of the Zn2+ builds up? Also as a thought in order to get something practical and i realize this may be a long way out, we could adapt a similar to a car battery layout with multiple cells and an intricate wiring system involving resistors which would allow us to efficiently charge a battery that would be useful ie. maybe power more than you were thinking before. Anyway i will attempt to get my cell up and going asap, but it will take time to get the materials as it did for you. Also as to the safety concern, I will use caution but you honestly neednt worry because ive dealt with conc naoh(1.1Lnaoh/1Lh20) and conc sulfuric acid, but rest assured ill not be arrogant and make a stupid mistake, ill be running it under a hood and everything,
Thanks guys and any info i can get from you to help me replicate would be greatly appreciated,
Trackdude.
Hi Trackdude,
Very nice sketch. It's great to read your enthusiasm and questions. You also seem to understand the concept and system. Excellent.
I was going to start with the reactor sealed with only the hydrogen tube going to a fuel cell that was outside the reactor. This way I wouldn't have to worry about the oxygen rate just yet. One step (problem, variable) at a time for me. I was going to put a rubber stopper in the top of the zinc side of the vessel so I could remove it and add water as I needed for now.
Dimensions: Mine is 3" X 3" X 6" right now. I am using 1/4 " thick plexiglass. I am considering going to 4" width X 3" height X 6" Length. I have changed my design and am putting the divider in lengthwise. This means that the electrodes can be side by side and closer in the reactor.
--------------------------------
* *
* Tungsten/Carbide *
-------------------------------
* Zinc *
* *
--------------------------------
Top View.
I think you can understand what I mean. I will do a drawing later, I am at work right now.
I plan to start with two zinc electrodes close together but not touching, both threaded but with the zinc rod in only one, and the tungsten connected to the other with a copper wire. My previous posts indicate that it seems that the aluminum rod slows down the reaction when connected to the tungsten. So I plan on switching the copper and aluminum connections. So copper is attached to one zinc, and aluminum is in the other. Then these are switched once a day. That's why there are two zinc electrodes. Only one is attached to the tungsten/carbide at a time.
These materials can cost a bit of money, so I hope you understand that. I think this will limit you.
I'll post more thoughts later.
Hi All,
I have a crude sketch of the bare-bones top view of the reactor I am now building, just so you can get an idea what it consists of. The aluminum rod and copper connection will be switched once per day to keep regenerating the zinc electrode. The barrier is the three plate system I described previously to keep gas from passing through but will allow electrolyte solution to pass freely. The connections extend outside the reactor.
Hi!
you can see my "on-off" experiment... (this is similar to the experiment #17 in Linnard's patent)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CichPvxNV3k
and my next experiment ("adding silver")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFb--kYzjdg
I don't have colloidal magnesium only colloidal silver, so the zinc is consumed.
Can anybody help, where to get colloidal magnesium?! Or how to prepare it?!
Hi majkl,
Good start. 8) You can purchase colloidal magnesium at any health food store.
RR2
Finished my to scale model of what I have interpreted as the reactor. Notice "The Flash" on a ginnipig wheel is the key to the whole thing. No but seriously it took a little time and should help me to put mine together so thought it might help someone else,
Trackdude.
Also, no offense meant by the file name, but at school while building it my fellow comrades insisted it wouldnt work so they named it crackpipe.
Quote from: trackdude410 on April 30, 2007, 04:28:00 PM
Also, no offense meant by the file name, but at school while building it my fellow comrades insisted it wouldnt work so they named it crackpipe.
I like the "Flash" in the hampster wheel. Nice touch.
I'm sure they gave you a good reason why it wouldn't work? ::)
We'll see who has the last laugh. ;)
One thing though, the aluminum rod needs to be outside the reactor, and able to screw into threaded holes of the two zinc rods that are inside the reactor. The aluminum is never exposed to the electrolyte solution. If this is unclear, just go back and read what was determined after Dr. Griffin gave the suggestion to use an aluminum rod placed into used electrolytic solution. A series of experiments were performed that seemed to suggest the use of the aluminum rod could encourage the regeneration of the zinc electrodes without electrical power. This will explain why the aluminum rod is used this way.
All this still needs long-term testing. My reactor will be done soon, I ran into some leaking problems and bubbles in my adhesive joints. Not good, but these things happen. I am doing the best I can right now. Just a few delays, that's all.
Thanks for your efforts Trackdude. Go for it, and don't ever give up.
ResinRat2
How are things going? The forum has been a little quiet lately, but I am sure things are in the process of being constructed or in the midst of being tested right now. I am sure that soon you will be able to report some good news on your system.
Regards
Trump
Hi Trump,
Believe me, I am more anxious by the delay than you are. I had a bit of a problem cutting the pieces for the reactor properly. I just didn't have the proper tools so the edges did not cut perfectly square. This caused some problems when I tried to cement the edges together. I developed leaks, which I tried to seal with silicone. This was a mistake because the reactor is plexiglass and not glass. I guess the silicone was not suitable for plexiglass. This I found out when it all basically just peeled off without any adhesion at all. This was a surprise to me, so this caused a bit of delay.
My cutting problems were caused by the use of the "heavy-duty" cutter that I purchased with the material. This turned out to be basically a sharp, fancy cutting blade connected to a handle. Upon scribing (which is difficult on 1/4" thick plexiglass) I found that many of the pieces did not break where they should. This left uneven edges, wasted material, a sore hand, and plenty of perspiration.
Sorry for the venting, but this area is not my talent of expertise. I am mostly a mechanical and electrical idiot. (lol) So things take me a bit longer than the average inventor. I should have asked my son for advice instead. 14 years old and he built an air-powered bike. I'm 47 years old and can't cut a piece of plastic straight; BUT, I am learning AND I am overcoming these setbacks. It's what I do best as a Researcher.
Soon, very soon the prototype will be assembled. I can see it clearly in my mind's eye, working and producing hydrogen and electrical power. It is so clear in my mind that I can almost touch it and feel its coldness. You know what I mean? I believe that if you can envision every corner and component of your desired goal, then that goal will emerge from your efforts. It is a belief of mine that this is so. All you need to do is NOT GIVE UP!
Sorry, I have not posted much lately. There was nothing relevent to post yet. I was working on mounting the zinc anodes which I still need to drill and tap the holes for the aluminum insert rod. This I will do this weekend. Then the final assembly is next. Then testing for leaks. One step at a time toward my desired goal.
I apologize if it is going slow, but this is how I work. Methodically. Until the final goal is reached.
Thank you for your interest.
Resin Rat,
I'm quite excited to see the new acrylic reactor get going! I can completely sympathize with your leak problems. That was what kept ruining my prior reactor attempts. The really scary part is containing the electrolyte is considered easy when compared to containing compressed hydrogen. I'll be counting down the days until July... (thats when my lease ends)
;D
Good luck and great work,
~Dingus Mungus
p.s. Did you notice that Bill Mahess is back on the scene? Interesting...
ResinRat2
Thanks for the quick response. I am sure you will not give up on this project. I understand that you have had some setbacks and I am sure you understand that is normal in something like this. I was wondering why a fish tank would not have sufficed for your reactor container? Once you get the reactor going, in which I am sure you will, what will be your next step, to make a bigger unit, one or just test for better reliability with the rods you will be using?
Regards
Trump
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on May 04, 2007, 08:21:22 PM
p.s. Did you notice that Bill Mahess is back on the scene? Interesting...
Guy's been gone for what, like four or five months. Everybody is still waiting on him, just like everybody is waiting on me. I guess patience is a virtue.
Quote from: Trump on May 04, 2007, 08:17:51 PM
ResinRat2
I was wondering why a fish tank would not have sufficed for your reactor container? Once you get the reactor going, in which I am sure you will, what will be your next step, to make a bigger unit, one or just test for better reliability with the rods you will be using?
I didn't use a fish tank because I wanted to model my reactor after Dr. Griffin's reactors that were shown in the picture I posted of him at the hydrogen convention. They were small and were running several fuel cells at once. I wanted to do this size too.
I want this prototype to be built right, not a piece of shoddy junk. I am building this unit to prove the long-term testing feasibility of this design. I want continuous power coming off this thing for MONTHS. It needs to be sturdy and built right.
Thanks for your interest.
Whew, I've been following this thread all day! 40 pages! Well, I guess I should introduce myself here. I'm also a junior at my highschool, but I'm not chemist. I'm better with electronics and electrical work than any of that fancy chemistry stuff. Once ResinRat2 gets a stable system going, I'm thinking about connecting alot of those units in parallel to run an engine of some kind, and use the engine to drive some water pump motors and get some AC off of them. The hydrogen fuel cells are just too expensive to do it directly, unless I build one myself. Even if the system isn't self powering, I can easily draw some extra power from a river that flows adjacent to my house, or just add sinc every once in awhile. So it's good news all around. So, how's everyone's progress coming?
P.S. - Would a bunch of plates lined together put out more hydrogen than the rods? I look forward to replicating this as soon as I can get some funds, teenagers never have money :P
-Brian
Hi All,
I remember this from the ELSA thread. Posted by member wizkycho. Could be a clever way to use the Linnard Griffin electrolysis system.
I am posting this with the hope that someone else will jump on it and try to develop a working generator. I already have my hands full so I won't do this one; but it should be a good and cheap way to exploit this .
I guess what's nice about this is that you can burn the gas afterwards, or put it through an expensive fuel cell and get even more bang for the buck. (lol)
Enjoy.
Quote from: Super God on May 06, 2007, 09:17:48 PM
P.S. - Would a bunch of plates lined together put out more hydrogen than the rods? I look forward to replicating this as soon as I can get some funds, teenagers never have money :P
-Brian
Hi Brian,
I never tried plates, so my answer is: I don't know for sure.
Sorry I couldn't help, but it sounds like an interesting experiment to try in the future.
Thank you for your interest.
I was thinking of taking silver or lead instead of tungsten as proposed earlier in the thread to see if that would be controllable or not. Also, what would be a reliable way to measure gas production? What amount of hydrogen and oxygen would be needed to run a small engine? Sorry, I can't find these answers anywhere! Have a great day.
-Brian
Quote from: Super God on May 07, 2007, 05:18:01 PM
I was thinking of taking silver or lead instead of tungsten as proposed earlier in the thread to see if that would be controllable or not.
It's all about electronegativities and keeping the required catalysts involved.
W = 2.36
Pb = 2.28
Ag = 1.93
Silver is a required component for exp13 replication, so using it as the cathode would prevent the Ag+ colloids from acting as an catalyst.
Quote from: Super God on May 07, 2007, 05:18:01 PM
Also, what would be a reliable way to measure gas production?
Meassure your electrolytes in fluid ounces or grams, and then run the reaction for 1hour and repeat messurements. Then you can change your findings in to whatever conversion unit you need.
Quote from: Super God on May 07, 2007, 05:18:01 PM
What amount of hydrogen and oxygen would be needed to run a small engine? Sorry, I can't find these answers anywhere! Have a great day.
-Brian
It all depends on the engine and the timing of the distributor. Remember that H2+O2=H2O is an implosion reaction which requires modifications to timing. Those questions can not be answered yet with out experimenting first.
Good luck and thanks for reading,
~Dingus Mungus
Howdy Resin Rat;
If I may offer a bit of advice on cutting plastic...
I've found that a new carbide saw blade (not too cheap 40 t 7 1/4") running slower than normal works famously.
Since the acrylic and polycarbonate likes to melt and get gummy from the friction, I use a shopsmith table saw running about 1200 rpm.
That won't help much if y'all cain't slow yer saw, but it works fer me.
Keith
Hi Keith,
I appreciate your comment. I read somewhere that a saw needs to run at a slower speed to cut acrylic, and your idea of using the carbide blade is a good one. At this present time I don't have the equipment to do what you suggested. I need to ask around and see if one of my buddies does.
Thanks for your help.
Hey ResinRat,
I have been looking at your work for some time now and definitely admire your work. I have seen other post where people say this is the best site because everyone is willing to help anyone who needs it. I have to agree. I have been on some other boards and well, if you were not a rocket scientist, then you were dirt. Ok.. well enough of my rambling, I have been reading where you are paying to obtain Zinc rods and electrodes. There is one of the most pure forms of zinc possible already sitting around your house right now, and a lot of it I would bet. Have you ever heard that the metal inside a penny is worth more than the penny itself? well that is because besides the copper coating on the coin, the inside of the penny is pure Zinc. This is true with pennies from 1983 and on. I know they say 1982, but I would go for 1983 to make sure. You can melt them down extremely easy and pour them onto any kind of mold that you would like to. If you want a sheet of it to increase your surface area, then pour it on a sheet of metal and let it cool. You can then leave it be or pound it out with a hammer to make it thinner. When you melt them, the copper coating comes off and it can be removed with anything that will not melt or burn. I do not know how much you are paying for Zinc electrodes and how long you are waiting for them to get there, but with 20 mins work, you can have them there at next to nothing. If need be, I can make some up for you and send them to you. I am not sure how much help this would be to you, but I am here to help if need be. Thanks.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on May 06, 2007, 10:28:12 PM
Quote from: Super God on May 06, 2007, 09:17:48 PM
P.S. - Would a bunch of plates lined together put out more hydrogen than the rods? I look forward to replicating this as soon as I can get some funds, teenagers never have money :P
-Brian
Hi Brian,
I never tried plates, so my answer is: I don't know for sure.
Sorry I couldn't help, but it sounds like an interesting experiment to try in the future.
Thank you for your interest.
After looking back at the patent, it is stated that the surface area of the cathode should be greater than the surface area of the anode. This makes sense. So, even though I never actually tested surface area differences, I would say that using plates for the cathode should increase the reactive surface area, so this should theoretically increase the reaction rate and also the hydrogen production rate.
Thanks for your interest.
Hi Dravenn,
You may be right about the zinc in the penny, I am not sure, but the idea of intentionally destroying government property does not appeal to me, nor should it appeal to anyone else. I appreciate you trying to save me money on materials, but this one needs to be passed over by EVERYONE!!!
Thanks for trying anyway.
Hey resin,
I can understand your reserve on this and it is well founded, but if you look at the laws, only melting a penny to profit off of the sale of the raw metal is against the law. Since you are not selling the metal or creating a product in which you plan to sell with the metal in it, then you are legally in your rights. Think about it, have you ever gone to a fair or something and they have a penny crushing machine that takes your penny and smashes it flat and puts their logo on the penny? Most everyone has. That is not illegal because you are not planning to profit from what you are doing. Now as you said, selling the metal of melted pennies is illegal, nowhere does it state that non-profit use is illegal. But understand your concerns.
That sounds like a good idea. Melting pennies would be easier that buying zinc, but I'm going to compare prices, you never know =P . How would one remove the copper? Is it all on top of the melted metal?
-Brian
Quote from: Super God on May 09, 2007, 06:59:41 PM
That sounds like a good idea. Melting pennies would be easier that buying zinc, but I'm going to compare prices, you never know =P . How would one remove the copper? Is it all on top of the melted metal?
-Brian
ammonium persulfate and with water and hydrogen peroxide to get rid of copper, however i have no idea what that would do to zinc
Actually the copper stays in chunks since the melting point of zinc is a lot lower than that of copper. All you have to do is let all of the pennies melt and then scoop out the copper chunks with anything..You will probably need to stir the pennies once they start melting. A spoon even works fine for it. I would make sure it is not a spoon you want to use again. I would also say that you do need to do this in a well ventilated area because I am not sure of the affects of vaporized zinc, but I have heard it can cause problems. Just make sure you do not breathe in the fumes and that you do it in a well aired area and always uses good welding gloves or something of that sort when pouring. No need in getting nasty burns if it hits your hands. If you can do something to protect yourself from harm, DO IT. Wear safety glasses and protect any exposed areas. Unlike a lot of the other metals, Zinc will pour and mold very easily to anything that you want it to mold to without a lot splatter. Make sure you are using dry pennies and where you pour it also dry. Think of it this way, one roll of 50 pennies could make a very nice zinc rod for your experiment. And like everything with the government, they only use the best. So it will be a very pure grade of zinc. The main thing to remember is common sense is the main ingredient of all experiments and if your shelf is empty of it, wait till you get some. Without it, injury is sure to follow.
I don't know gentlemen, all that trouble, danger of burns from the hot metal, and fumes that could harm you doesn't seem much worth it when you can purchase zinc anodes on the internet from boatzincs.com. Why risk your health to save a few bucks, when you may end up injured and spend money on a doctor or hospital bill. Is it really worth the risk? Not to me anyway.
Please be careful everyone.
Resin is right... Unless you have experience with metal working, whether it be welding or actual melting of other metals, this may not be the best of ideas. I am merely trying to help the project along by providing both a cheap and readily available source of very pure zinc. The way I look at it is sure, buying them from this site might be the easy thing to do, it is certainly not the cheapest and by far not the fastest. I am sure there are a couple days wait on orders placed and well if time is money, then that is a lot of lots time and money. Just trying the help the site out. I will gladly help anyone out who needs me to provide some zinc rods for them if they are scared to try this and are not willing to pay the money they want. let me know
Hi Dravenn,
Your offer to help anyone is greatly appreciated. This forum is filled with people who are willing to help each other. It's a great thing to see. It makes me feel good to post all my results and data in a place where there are a large number of others who appreciate it.
Thanks everyone for your interest, comments, and help.
Resin,
How's progress with the new reactor going?
-Brian
Sorry, not done yet. Still working on it. My plan is to have a lid that can be popped on and off, sealed with a pressure seal and a gasket. This may or may not work. I will see. If it doesn't seal well enough then I will just cement the whole lid shut and not worry about being able to get at the electrodes. I may end up doing this anyway.
Guess I'm just not fast enough.
Trying my best.
As the old saying goes - "If you don't have time to do it right, you'd better have time to do it over." No need to hurry :) Heh, good luck with the reactor!
-Brian
Hi all,
Latest video on youtube. Nice compilation of pictures and cool music. Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCGKdko0wAs
Still working on the reactor. Posting soon.
So will this reactor be able to regenerate itself? I think that even if we can regenerate the zinc electrode via a simple charge, that it would be sufficient. It's better than drawing 8 amps to make hydrogen, right?
Hi Brian,
I have been experimenting with regenerating the zinc by using the aluminum electrode inserted into the zinc electrode. See earlier posts. This should regenerate it without electricity. My latest experiments confirm this so far.
However, this link was posted by member deltat back on page 29 of this thread:
http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage7024.html
Notice it only takes 0.9 volts (they don't say what amps but my lab tests showed about a half-amp was required) to regenerate the electrode. So this angle looks promising as a backup as well, though I don't think we will need it.
Have patience with me everyone. The reactor is still being assembled, and I am still doing further experiments with real tungsten/carbide (25%Cobalt) rods as well. The T/C rods are much more reactive than tungsten or thoriated tungsten alone, and the use of the aluminum/zinc electrode looks great so far.
Thank you for your interest.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on May 17, 2007, 07:38:36 AM
the aluminum electrode inserted into the zinc electrode
Hi ResinRat2,
can you post the image of that electrode? How did you prepare it? I would like to try it too...
And can you weigh the Al/Zinc electrode before and after your experiment? (after hours or days... if you have some digital scale...?) - to be sure that zinc is not consumed...
Is there really greater production of gas on T/C rods than on pure tungsten rods? Is it welding T/C rod? (I want to know where to get it -- I have only pure tungsten rod now.)
And this article is interesting:
http://pesn.com/2007/05/17/9500471_Hydrogen_via_Aluminum_Gallium/ (http://pesn.com/2007/05/17/9500471_Hydrogen_via_Aluminum_Gallium/)
=Hydrogen from metals(alluminium and gallium in water)
--michael
Hi majkl,
Here is a shortcut: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,518.msg25561.html#msg25561
This is where I explain how to make the aluminum/zinc electrode.
Sorry I cannot weigh the electrode. I don't have an analytical balance here at home. I will be testing this long term once the reactor is finished to show definitively what happens to the zinc electrode.
I have been using tungsten rods, and I can surely see that the T/C rods have a more vigorous output. I purchased them from www.innovativecarbide.com. No welding store in my area sells them. I don't know why. Also, it seems that I can connect the t/c electrodes directly to the zinc rod without touching the aluminum portion, and gas starts to come off the t/c.
This is a bit different than what I experienced with pure tungsten rods. Gas only started to come off after I connected the tungsten to the ALUMINUM portion of the aluminum/zinc electrode.
I haven't read your link yet, but I will.
Thanks for your interest, and good luck with your experiments.
Hi everyone,
This is just an observation, but I have noticed that when I am near the reaction with the T/C rods, that my throat is becoming irritated. I wonder if the cobalt that is in these rods may be having an effect on me. Maybe I have an allergy to cobalt, or somehow, cobalt dust may be rising with the bubbles of the hydrogen. Not sure.
I think I am going to order T/C rods with the lowest cobalt content they have. This seems strange, but I definitely notice that something is irritating me this time during the hydrogen reaction. Never did before. This is strange.
I am going to order the T/C rods of higher purity this time. Just to be on the safe side.
Just wanted to let you all know.
Thank you for your interest.
Hi All,
I'm thinking what is happening is that the hydrogen bubbles are coming up to the liquid's surface so vigorously that it is causing the NaOH solution to form into microscopic droplets and rise out of the container. Almost like a microscopic dew of NaOH solution that is traveling as a vapor outside of the container. This may be what is irritating my throat.
I think the problem is that the large supply of bubbles that are formed are very tiny, not large bubbles; and this is causing a kind of vapor "pressure" that is pushing the droplets upward into the air, and dissipating into the air around the container. I noticed the edges of the upper lip of the glass jar above the liquid level is forming a white precipitate. That could be coming from rising and condensing vapors of NaOH solution.
That would explain the irritation of my throat when I am around the container. Now this is an interesting twist.
How would I control, or keep the NaOH solution vapors from rising into the hydrogen tube that feeds into the fuel cell? I think this would clog, or ruin the fuel cell. Wow, what a new glitch in the gears. Anybody have any ideas? Maybe I need a vapor filter of some kind? This is an interesting new twist that I didn't expect.
Time for brainstorming. Thanks for your interest.
Hi All,
I think I have an idea. I will direct the hydrogen gas into a jar or container with water in it so the bubbles enter below the liquid surface, then exit the other side of the container. This should redissolve any NaOH and trap it, allowing free hydrogen to go into the fuel cell. See diagram attached. This might solve the problem.
Try using a fine steel wool as a filter to trap the NaOH, not sure if the steel wool would react to the chemical though
Hi Carl,
Thanks, I'll probably try both. Good idea.
In the lab we use glass fibers in the gc injection port to trap impurities. This may be another idea, it won't react with the NaOH for sure.
Thanks again.
YW Good luck with your project, I'll keep watching from the side lines
the only problem with the second vessel idea is that in the long term that will slowly but surely dilute the NaOH solution unless you are able to reintroduce it into the original solution periodically. The best solution i think would be to take advantage of the fact that h20 is lighter than NaOH so if im not mistaken increasing the distance between the fuel cell and the solution would decrease the amount of NaOH to a negligable amount unless there is some IMF interaction between the O2- in water and the Na+ in the base. Hmm i will think on this further but im not sure a filter at the mouth of the tube that forces the NaOH back into solution is another possibility.
That bubbler system you proposed was what I had in mind.
An aluminum mesh filter in the output hose would allow for any escaping NaOH to be converted quickly to hydrogen, but that would cause the aluminum mesh and NaOH to be consumed slowly over time. Altho it may be the only sure fire way to prevent any NaOH from reaching the fuel cell. This is going to be a real bugger of a problem isn't it? The PEM's cathode and catalysts will probably react very badly with long term exposure to lye precipitates. I can't believe I didn't think of that when we were discussing the initial H2 fuelcell-reactor hybrid concepts.
Hi Chris,
I think the rate of hydrogen production was never very high previously, so this problem never came up. These tungsten/carbide rods really put out the gas bubbles. I just wish I understood why mine are so tiny, and Dr. Griffin's videos show his bubbles as larger. I wonder if it has to do with the grain size of the electrode. If you look at grades of tungsten/carbide they quote grain size, as well as %cobalt:
http://www.innovativecarbide.com/html/grade_chart.html
I am using IC-325 rods / 3.5 grain size. I ordered the IC-6 rods with a 0.8 grain size. I will see if this makes a difference with bubble size. These rods (IC-6) also have a lower cobalt content. I'll see if this changes the reaction rate/bubble size in any way. I think the larger bubbles would not produce as much of a vapor. Just think how much splashing of liquid you get when alka-seltzer is dropped into water. It just seems to splatter out of the glass all over the counter, your hands, etc.
Well I ordered the lower cobalt/smaller grain size rods yesterday. I was using the 25% cobalt and larger grain size. They should be here in two weeks. In the meantime I am doing experiments with the aluminum rod regeneration. This cell was going fine until I added water, but I think the cup I used to refill the reactor with must have had a residual layer of dishwashing soap on it. I smelled it when I took a drink from the cup after I filled the reactor. A few minutes later (30-40 minutes) the entire inside of the reactor was white with a white residue coating the zinc rod. This morning the reactor was dead; everything covered with white. This shows me the importance of using deionized water only. It also shows me the importance of the rinse cycle in the dishwasher. I'll be checking the cups from now on.
The deeper I get into this project the more fascinated I become. I live for research, and research is really just an ability to identify and overcome problems to achieve a goal. This has been quite a journey, and I am trying to post everything I can so others don't need to commit the same mistakes and failures that I do.
Thanks Chris, have a good day everyone; and thank you for your interest.
Will the NaOH solution be used up over time or will we have to add water to the cell periodically? If it's the latter, won't the water dilute the NaOH solution?
Hi Brian,
The OH- ions are regenerated in the cell by reacting with the silver colloid catalyst:
2Zn + 4Agc+ --> 4Agc + 2Zn+2
4Agc + 4H2O --> 4Agc+ + 2H2 + 4OH-
------------------------------------------------------------
2Zn + 4H2O --> 2Zn+2 + 2H2 + 4OH-
And on the surface of the tungsten electrode the following reaction takes place:
4H2O + 4e- --> 2H2 + 4OH-
So the OH- is regenerated and will only be lost through splattering or vaporizing out of the NaOH solution. I just need to keep that from happening. Once the fuel cell in contained in the unit (future design) the water will be recycled as well and should be a sealed system. Right now I am working on one problem at a time.
I am thinking of a design right now that rebubbles the hydrogen through the cell liquid first before it is sent to the fuel cell. I will post a picture soon. I am busy with family activities today and tommorrow so it won't be until Monday at the soonest.
Thank you for your interest.
I attached a rough drawing. May give you an idea what I am thinking.
Good job on all of your work. I wish I knew more in the chemistry department, it's not one of my interests unfortunately. I like the electrical stuff more. If and when a stable cell is produced, I plan on connecting tens of them together to drive an engine and generate electricity for my house. Maybe putting one in a car too? Think of the applications :) It's pretty cool when you think about it.
Hi Brian,
Yes, it is pretty cool. That's why I have put so much effort into it. It IS the answer to the world's energy problems.
Have you seen the video where he had the go-kart reactor running before he put it on the go-Kart. It was putting out 70+ liters per minute.
Think about it. 70+ liter's per minute of hydrogen gas.
With no added power.
We (I) just have to figure out how he does it with such output and control. I will get there. It will just take time, and a will to reach for it.
I'm not quitting!!!!!
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Hi all,
Another idea I just thought of was to increase the level of NaOH in the solution, say a couple of a percent at a time, to increase the viscosity of the solution. Just enough so that the splashing and vaporizing would be brought to a minimum. I am not sure how the solubility of the rest of the components would be affected, but it might be worth investigating. Much simpler than altering the design of the cell. I might try an experiment or two on this angle.
Thank you for your interest.
Woo, this is getting exciting! Imagine 70 liters a minute!? I hope we eventually get to there! But crawl before you walk, haha. How's is going, ResinRat?
Hi Brian,
OK, I can't wait any longer. Here are some pics of the reactor in building. You can see the top and sides. The two zinc rods are mounted on one side of the reactor with the access holes for the connections visible in the side view. You can see the three plexiglass sheets that divide the reactor chamber down the middle. the middle sheet has the holes straight across, and the two side sheets have the holes upward at 45 degrees or so on each side. This should keep the gas from mixing between chambers.
I know it is going slow but this is not that easy to do. Still to be added: the gas exit port on the top, and the tungsten rods too. I will probably wait and see which rods give me better output, the higher cobalt content ones or not. Also, I am still not sure how I will secure the lid.
Sorry it is so slow, but work still needs to be done.
@ resin rat 2;
Two possible ways to secure the lid:
1) get a woodworker's clamp that will evenly press the lid to the base (suppurt the clamp as it holds the whole unit)
or
2) cut a pair of thick pieces of plastic larger than the footprint and use 6 threaded rod tie bolts at the corners and along the middle.
I could make it in less time than I could adequately explain it. Is that black stuff on the perimeter of yer lid the gasket material?
Keith
Looooking good! ;)
-Brian
@ResinRat or whoever can answer this
Hello all,
I've been following this thread from the sideline and just wondered if it would be possible to mimic the NaOH catalyst with the low power RF method as outlined in the patent found by Bruce.
I know the catalyst (NaOH) isn't consumed in the proces and therefore might be suitable to be mimiced by RF (Radio Frequencies).
When producing hydrogen from aluminium and water, the NaOH is just there to take the corrosion off the aluminium.
So my question is, does anyone know if it is possible to do just that by sending the different RF frequencies through the water for the components that make up the NaOH. (would that be three RF signals? 1x Na, 1x O, 1x H frequency?)
If possible it is a way to get rid of the physical presence of the NaOH and the impurities it causes.
Robert
Quote from: dutchy1966 on May 24, 2007, 03:02:52 AM
So my question is, does anyone know if it is possible to do just that by sending the different RF frequencies through the water for the components that make up the NaOH. (would that be three RF signals? 1x Na, 1x O, 1x H frequency?)
If possible it is a way to get rid of the physical presence of the NaOH and the impurities it causes.
WOW... I don't know if thats possible, but if it is... WOW!
Anyone know if this even possible?
Can one really emulate chemical matter with RF?
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on May 24, 2007, 06:00:54 PM
[WOW... I don't know if thats possible, but if it is... WOW!
Anyone know if this even possible?
Can one really emulate chemical matter with RF?
Only a catalyst as it should not be chemicalyy involved in the process. (has to be inert). But with the sodium hydroxyde used to take the corrosion of the aluminium I'm not sure if this is possible or not....
anyone?
Robert
Hi Everyone,
The catalysts in this system are the magnesium and silver colloids. The sodium hydroxide can become tied up into zincate complexes and zinc hydroxide:
[Zn(OH)4]-2
Zincate Complex
Zn(OH)2
So the OH- ions can become chemically tied up. The colloids do not. The zinc can be regenerated using electrical means. The OH ions are regenerated by the colloid catalysts.
I have also been doing further experimenting on the zinc/aluminum electrode and have come to the conclusion that it is not the way I will be using the reactor for initial testing. I performed an experiment that comprised the tungsten/carbide/cobalt electrode attached to the zinc/aluminum electrode with a copper wire connecting the t/c/c electrode with the zinc portion of the z/a electrode. The reaction continued for about 6-8 hours then stopped. The zincate complexes formed on the z/a electrode basically covered the entire surface of the electrode and killed the reaction. This tells me that Dr. Griffin probably had not tested this angle much and wanted me (us) to see what kind of results we would get.
I will be using the reactor as previously conceived, and will be doing the zinc regeneration by electrical means only. At least for initial testing.
Thank you for your interest.
Glad you're making progress!
-Brian
Just checking in. Haven't had much activity lately, Im sure Resin is working as hard as ever! I myself have finals to catch up on! Best of luck to everyone involved!
-Brian
Hi Brian,
I am waiting on the tungsten carbide electrodes with the low cobalt content. Should be here in a week or so. I want to test them to see if they get better gas output than the 25% cobalt tungsten carbide electrodes that I have been using. I am really hoping it will give off larger bubbles. Once the T/C electrodes are installed they will not be removable without destroying the reactor, so I want to make the right choice before I put it all together.
Again, I apologize for the slow progress right now. That's why I posted the pictures of the unfinished reactor, just so you can see I am working on this and not just all talk. Most of my time is taken up waiting for materials so far. I am still experimenting on other aspects of the reactor and variations on Dr. Griffin's chemical design. These I will report when I get any worthwhile results.
Thank you for your understanding and interest.
Good luck with the newest design. :) As a hypothesis, do you think this unit will produce the most gas out of all of the other ones?
-Brian
Quote from: Super God on May 30, 2007, 05:33:41 PM
Good luck with the newest design. :) As a hypothesis, do you think this unit will produce the most gas out of all of the other ones?
-Brian
Thanks for the vote of luck Brian. All I am shooting for right now is overunity. As far as this goes, we shall see.
Phew I made it to the end of this thread in only 12 hours :) Hehe.
Great work guys. I'm sad that you havn't figured it out yet so we can't just build a working version but I"m also glad because now I can help out.
You probably won't hear back from me for a little while as I need to brush up on my circuitry but this is something I was going to do anyway to attempt an SM replica.
The Linnard cell though looks cheaper and with better possibility of a closed loops system.
I'm down with chem too I"ll brush up on that while I"m at it.
I look forward to future updates, there are some ideas / questions I have but I will save them for later as it is late.
Hi, I read in an earlier post that 'lurkers' are welcome to post.
First of all I'm not a serious experimenter or a chemist, although I do have a background in electronics.
I would like to thank you all, especially rr2 & dingus for being so open with the results of your experiments, it makes wonderful reading.
I have been thinking about the zinc electrode, has anyone tried Gallium or Bismuth?
Thank you all once again for a most interesting topic.
Debbie
Debra I was thinking the same thing about Bismuth! :)
@RR2
Do you still need timing circuits? My brushing up on electronics is pretty much done didn't take long, I am going to be building some potentiometer based timing circuits that can be easily adjusted by turning a dial. I'm not sure if this is an improvement over using a micro controller or not but if you would like a couple let me know.
ResinRat2,
Looks like you have gained some ground on the experiment. I have not been on for awhile as I have been on vacation and working on a project. I like your determination to make this run OU, God bless and keep up the good work.
Regards
Trump
Hi Debra,
Gallium has a melt point of around 85 degF.(Approximately 29 deg.C) This is about room temperature so I would say that is out.
Bismuth has a standard electrode potential of about -0.452Volts for oxidation, which is a higher (or lower, depending on how you want to look at it) potential negatively than magnesium or silver. Zinc is in between magnesium and silver.
I am not sure what the advantage would be. I would guess, though I haven't researched it, that Bismuth is a less common and more expensive metal. I am kind of at a loss. What do you think the advantage would be? I guess I am missing it. Dr. Griffin never mentions the metal in any of his experimental cells described on his patent.
-----------------------------------
Hi Payson,
Thanks for the offer. I don't believe I will need switching circuits. The system I have planned shouldn't need it, but I appreciate your willingness to help.
My low cobalt electrodes have not arrived yet, but should be here any day now. Once my testing on them is completed I will finish assembling the reactor. Thanks for everyone's patience, interest, and willingness to help.
Hey I checked out clearpvcpipes.com and they are pretty expensive, do you think plexiglass would be ok?
I think he already is using plexiglass. I'm not sure at the moment.
Hi Payson,
I tried out the clear pvc and it started to give some type of by-product in the electrolyte solution within a short period of time. It appeared as a type of gelatenous layer on the surface of the liquid. Then the unit developed a leak. I determined that it was not a good material to use with the NaOH solution.
At this point in time I will be using plexiglass, which is a clear acrylic.
Thanks for your interest.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on June 10, 2007, 08:30:17 AM
Bismuth is a less common and more expensive metal. I am kind of at a loss. What do you think the advantage would be? I guess I am missing it. Dr. Griffin never mentions the metal in any of his experimental cells described on his patent.
I was thinking Bismuth because I have seen it in several other projects. Specifically it has good diamagnetic properties, but also the guy building the kosol sphere is using it as part of his proposed energy production.
Also you can buy bismuth at gun shops, they sell it as 'shot' for shotgun shells as a replacement for lead since it is non-toxic. As far as I know if they are putting it in shotgun shells it probably wouldn't be that expensive.
It also has a low melting point (much like lead) so if you wanted to coat aluminum or something you could do that easily.
Silver has a lower electronegativity than bismuth so it would throw off the catalysts.
The anode metal must have an electronegativity that is lower than both W and Ag,
But it must also have an electronegativity higher than the Mg colloids. Other wise the
catalyzed oxidation exchance wont occure. If you did use a bismuth anode the Ag
colloids would have to be replaced with a colliodal metal with an electronegativity
between 2.05 and 2.31 otherwise the catalysts will not function. Most of the metals
in that range are ultra dense and expensive. Let me know if you attempt that cell
design though as I' am interested in bismuths reactivity/production in this cell.
~Dingus Mungus
Quote from: payson on June 11, 2007, 07:57:37 PM
Also you can buy bismuth at gun shops, they sell it as 'shot' for shotgun shells
Lol - I should know this; and Dingus is absolutely right.
Sorry about the mistake. I'm used to making mistakes.
Just keeping an eye on this project... I know it'll work.
Update: I may be moved in to my new home as early as August!
Then I'll be back on this project ASAP! Keep up the good work!
Any new info on the reactor build?
~Dingus
Hi Chris,
I am testing the new low-cobalt tungsten electrodes right now. Initial results seem to indicate that the higher cobalt content may give a better output of hydrogen. I want to do a few more tests to be sure this is correct. I am actually surprised by the results so far, but what I expect doesn't matter. Only the truth matters.
I have also been testing a variation of the cell that uses no zinc! My purpose here was to get rid of the regeneration of the zinc that seems to be the cause of all the problems. I have interesting results so far. The electrodes are two tungsten/carbide/(25%)Cobalt rods. One hooked to positive, the other hooked to the negative side of a AA battery. I am getting gas off both electrodes. Theoretically correct at higher output at the negative side (hydrogen) and lower output at the positive side (oxygen). Very low voltage use (5 days off a AA so far and great gas output). The cell looks cleaner than one that uses zinc as well. This one does not give off gas spontaneously like the other zinc cell, but it gives it off at a good output.
My hope is to build a variation of this soon (besides the regular cell I am building now) where two fuel cells are used. One to keep the reaction going (lower voltage fuel cell about 1 volt), the other (higher voltage fuel cell about 3 volts) to power some device using the excess hydrogen/voltage. So it would be a self-runner that gives off excess power and needs no zinc regeneration. This is a future project though. I mentioned this project to mramos and IronHead and asked if they could try it out with higher voltage systems and two SS electrodes. IronHead mentioned to me the output was impressive enough (using two SS electrodes) for him to want to show it to others. Mike has not gotten back to me as yet on it. I think he needed to buy some magnesium colloid. That was a few days ago.
Anyway, things are moving along, just not very fast. Sorry about being slow on this but I am trying my best right now.
Hope you like your new place. I have a few experiments for you to try if you can and as long as it doesn't get you into trouble. If not, then that's OK too. We all do what we can.
Nice to hear from you again.
Dave
Glad to hear there is a lot going on behind the scenes! I don't want to rush you though... Send me a PM with the mentioned experiments and I'll see what I can do to replicate and confirm your results. Using the catalyzed solution in a standard electrolyzer does sound like a good angle to look in to... I'll be around.
~Dingus
Hi All,
I am a firm believer in open-sourced information. This is for anyone using an electrolyzer that uses two stainless-steel electrodes to try.
Electrolyte solution:
10 grams NaOH
20ml of 20ppm concentration of colloidal silver (silver colloid)
10ml of 20ppm concentration of colloidal magnesium (magnesium colloid)
bring this mixture to a total of 100ml with deionized or distilled water.
Using this formula of solution, try it in your electrolyzer with two SS electrodes and see what kind of output of hydrogen and oxygen gases you get. My testing shows it very effective and I want everyone to see this. Try it on your high voltage system too. I get great results just using a AA battery and I am using two tungsten/carbide electrodes.
Please post your results here or on this forum for all to see. I don't believe in keeping "secrets" like some other people.
Note: this still needs long term testing. I need to know how stable this is and how long it will last. Please let us know here. Thank you.
This is something I will pursue at a later date. Right now I am working on my fuel cell electricity generator.
Hi All,
My last testing on the low cobalt (5%) vs. higher cobalt (25%) tungsten/carbide rods makes me want to favor the lower cobalt rating. The higher cobalt electrodes started to give the electrolyte solution a bluish color, and this color we associate in the lab with cobalt. (Sevre's and Thenard's blue are salts of cobalt used in pottery, tiles, glass, etc.) Even though the higher cobalt electrodes seemed to give off a higher volume of gas, this gives me an indication that the cobalt part of the electrodes are given a tendancy to deteriorate in this electrolytic system.
So finally, my conclusion is to use the low cobalt electrodes in my hydrogen generator.
I will now finish building the reactor.
One last quote I would like to put out:
"Great works are performed not by strength, but by perseverance."
---------- Samuel Johnson
Thank you for your interest.
I'm a very interested in this experiment. I'm a high school student and I haven't had the opportunity to learn all the terms you guys use. I have made some electrolysis units and I had a few simple question for this one. These are noob question but I would really liked them answered.
1. Can this cell be ran forever with the original colloidal metals? (including the electrolytic solution) so the only thing you must replenish is pure h20
2. From the best test result how many leaders of gas does the system produce in 1 hour.
3. Has anyone ran a hydrogen fuel cell from the system? (I read this was an over unity machine)
4. I can't open the guys patent so could you tell me the supplies need to for this electrolysis process.
I would be very happy to have these question answered
STALLMAN
My original thoughts on this project were that if you have to use a voltage to replenish the zinc then why not utilize circuitry from a Meyers cell so that when you pulse you get the dielectric breakdown. After some more research I believe Meyers had time for the pulses to cool down too in which case the Griffin Cell would take over, which could potentially result in better performance overall.
I'm picking up my electronics kit from storage this weekend and just got a job so I will be able to afford parts and such and can't wait to join this exciting project :)
So ResinRat2, without the zinc the Griffin cell does not product a voltage? Is that why you hooked up an AA?
Quote from: payson on June 16, 2007, 06:48:47 AM
So ResinRat2, without the zinc the Griffin cell does not product a voltage? Is that why you hooked up an AA?
Yes. The cell does not produce a voltage and the reaction is no longer spontaneous, but, the reason I did this was to get rid of the zinc regeneration. The cell can produce a good output of hydrogen and oxygen at low voltage. This can be run throught a fuel cell and produce electricity. The goal here is to see if the reaction, when powered by the low voltage, is still endothermic, thus potentially producing excess power if run through a fuel cell. I don't know if it is endothermic yet. I still need to take temperature readings to find out.
Thanks for your interest.
OK, I need an interpretation of what I just saw.
I took the cell without zinc that had been running for 6 days on a AA battery and replaced the AA with two nine volt batteries wired in series to give off 18 volts. The gas was pouring off the two electrodes like crazy. I watched this for a good couple of minutes, then I felt the batteries. Both were extremely hot, so I shut it down. The liquid in the cell was cool but the batteries were HOT!
So what does this mean? I think, first of all, it means nobody should use this solution for anything higher than 3 volts; but what else could it mean? Ideas anyone?
Hmmmmm...
I'll try this out with my PSU tomorrow.
I don't think it'll heat up, but if I power the cell with 30V
for an hour, we should be able to see any temp changes.
Well on second thought will 30V oxidize our colloids?
Any recomendations for tests? I can probably run 2-3 cells.
~Dingus
Hi Dingus,
You can try any voltage you like, I just want to see if the solution temperature rises. If it does, then this is not worth pursuing as an overunity system. It still might be good for high voltage hydrogen production in systems like IronHead is working on.
Thanks, I appreciate what you are doing.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on June 16, 2007, 09:13:19 PM
OK, I need an interpretation of what I just saw.
I took the cell without zinc that had been running for 6 days on a AA battery and replaced the AA with two nine volt batteries wired in series to give off 18 volts. The gas was pouring off the two electrodes like crazy. I watched this for a good couple of minutes, then I felt the batteries. Both were extremely hot, so I shut it down. The liquid in the cell was cool but the batteries were HOT!
So what does this mean? I think, first of all, it means nobody should use this solution for anything higher than 3 volts; but what else could it mean? Ideas anyone?
Hello Resin Rat
I guess,that the 2 Batterys give so much current,as the are shortet.And that might be the Reason,that the become hot.Thats quite normal.
Helmut
Hi Stallman,
Interesting name. What are you trying to stall? (lol)
1. Can this cell be ran forever with the original colloidal metals? (including the electrolytic solution) so the only thing you must replenish is pure h20 I will do long term testing, Dr Griffin mentioned that he had cells running for months at a time. That sounds pretty good to me.
2. From the best test result how many leaders of gas does the system produce in 1 hour. I don't have exact measurements yet. Dr. Griffin shows some impressive outputs in his videos.
3. Has anyone ran a hydrogen fuel cell from the system? (I read this was an over unity machine) I will be soon. The system is spontaneous and draws its energy from the ambient air temperature. This is where the overunity energy would come from.
4. I can't open the guys patent so could you tell me the supplies need to for this electrolysis process. Experiment #13 uses tungsten/carbide electrodes, zinc electrodes, 20ppm colloidal silver and 20ppm colloidal magnesium, distilled (or DI) water, and NaOH. I guess I can email you the patent if you PM me. It's in PDF file format and should be easy to open.
I would be very happy to have these question answeredThanks for your interest. Be careful with the NaOH.
Quote from: mramos on June 17, 2007, 12:39:21 AM
Send me that mix.
You need more current to run it. A 9VDC battery is low current. Make a 6 by 1.5 AA battery to run it. See how that works.
Hi Mike,
What do you want me to send you? The colloids? The NaOH? Let me know.
I think you may be right about the 9VDC batteries. I never had any issues with the AA, A, or D batteries I tried out.
Hmm, so we don't have a regenerative cell anymore? I wanna try that zinc regeneration one with the zinc on a plate in the bottom. Again, once I get some stuf to try it with ;)
Great job ResinRat2! Keep it up!
Have a great day.
-Brian
Quote from: Super God on June 18, 2007, 11:15:31 AM
Hmm, so we don't have a regenerative cell anymore?
Hi Brian,
I am not working on this project right now, it was just a side observation of an experiment I tried. I am still going to do the normal cell composition using the zinc. I want it to be a self-runner.
Dave (RR2)
ResinRat any ideas on what sort of time cycle would be good to replate the zinc as far as hho generation vs running current, 10/1, 4/1, 1/1 ? Or something like that :)
Hi Payson,
My reactor has two zinc electrodes on one side, and on the other side it will have a group of tungsten/carbide electrodes solder-fluxed together with one electrode protruding outside the reactor. This will be connected to one of the zinc electrodes and this will be the system that produces hydrogen and runs spontaneously without electricity. The hydrogen produced will run through two fuel cells. The first fuel cell will be about 5 watts of power and will be used to charge a battery or run a fan.
In the same chamber as the tungsten/carbide group will be a single 1/8" tungsten electrode not connected to the group. This will be connected to the other zinc electrode through the second fuel cell. This is about 1 watt of power and will be used to regenerate the second zinc electrode while the first zinc electrode is being used. Once per day the connections to the zinc electrodes will be switched so no electrode gets depleted.
I will post a diagram soon, right now I need to leave the house for an errand for a bit; but essentially, the hydrogen will be continuously given off while one zinc electrode is being consumed, and at the same time the second zinc electrode will be regenerating. So it will be a continuous process. Oxygen will also be given off as well, continuously as the zinc is regenerating.
This is the plan, it needs long term testing. The reactor is almost finished. I had to intall the tungsten/carbide electrodes, the gas ports, the pins to hold the lid down, and a gasket sealed with high pressure silicone. Almost done.
Thanks for your interest.
@ RR2
I did those PSU driven electrolysis experiments you requested. I found that the solution will heat up with time, but after an hour at 15V@4.5A the chamber was hot to the touch, but no where near boiling. So it seemed to be cooler than normal due to the lower resistance of the solution. The most interesting effect observed was that the cathode got really hot and was putting off all of the observed gas, while the anode was cool and didn't seem to put off any observable bubbles. After examinining the electrodes it was apparent both eletrodes are being eaten away where the solution meets the air. It doesn't appear to be oxidation though... I don't know what is happening. I'll upload some pics later... I was thinking about attempting the same experiment with pure DI water for compairison, but I realized without a way to compair gas production rates the data would be inconclusive. I'll have to wait untill I get to my new place to do this right. Also I'm looking at buying a scientific glass electrolysis vessel! I'll have to get custom electrodes made, but it'll really help take the guess work out on catalyst materials research.
I can't wait to see the new reactor!
~Dingus Mungus
Yo, Dingus;
Can y'all capture and measure yer gas? Try my e-box idea... it should be big enough
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=4510f63fa5531b08549f3a45d64e23fb&topic=2057.320
to hold the reactor,
then send the gas to an inverted graduate filled with water on pge 45 of that same thread (sparkling there in the background).
Use a shopvac to evac all the air, but keep in mind the water column above the reservoir level exerts a vacuum and won't give true volumetric readings.
That don't matter none, though, as long as yer making comparisons.
Turtle
Hi Chris,
Yes, I suspected it would eventually heat up without the zinc to balance the reduction potential. This means it has no chance for overunity. The only way overunity would happen is if it would absorb the heat from the surrounding air, this would require it to be endothermic.
This means the anode was being oxidized. That's why it gave off no bubbles.
Thanks for taking the time and trouble to perform the experiment. At least we know something else that won't work. :(
I believe you're right about the oxidation as well as your earlier warnings about the NaOH causing an itchy throat. I'm breaking bown the experiment now. I ran it for longer and I was wrong on my original observations. (used electrodes) It was only the anode that was being oxidized, but there is now a black film/plate on the cathode. Let me know if you want me to try anything else out.
~Dingus
Hi Chris,
The tungsten must be plating itself onto the other electrode. I suspected it might, but I was hoping for the endothermic result. Oh well, I guess the original cell composition is the best.
I will bubble the gas through water before I put it through the fuel cell. Hopefully this will catch the NaOH vapors. Some type of filter could probably be developed to catch the NaOH. It could then just be reintroduced back into the water to recycle it. That's for later research. Right now the reactor is being completed.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Dave (RR2)
Hi Everyone,
Here's some pics of the completed (one more step) reactor. I need to allow the sealer to dry for a couple of days. Then I will add the electrolyte solution, seal the lid with high pressure silicone, then let the long-term testing begin.
The pics show the two tungsten/carbide electrodes. The thin one will be used for regeneration. The rest of the chamber will be filled with other 1/4" tungsten/carbide electrodes. The lid is shown off with the holding pins for you to see. The gasket sealer is right there as well. You can also see the gas ports. One for hydrogen, the other for oxygen.
The initial testing will be looking for leaks. This was carefully made so (fingers-Crossed) hopefully no leaks.
So a couple of more days to dry. Then the fun begins (finally).
Thank you for your interest.
WOO HOO! ;D
*does happy dance*
I can't wait for the runtime data!
SO EXCITING!!!
~Dingus Mungus
Nice build, ResinRat2!
Give that sealer time to cure then pressurize it with a column of water and submerge that rascal, check fer bubbles.
Hope it does what you plan it to.
Turtle
Hi Turtle,
I think I will submerge it to test for leaks. As you can see, I won't need your sealed box idea to capture the gas, I have the gas ports for that; but thanks for the idea anyway. If all goes well (no leaks) I'll be in business real quick.
Thanks for your interest.
Hi All,
The design of my reactor will give me a unique opportunity to test a hypothesis I have formed over all this time I have been experimenting with this system. If what I propose is correct, then the use of the fuel cell may give me the ability to thermally speed the regeneration of the zinc electrode enough that no seperate electrical regeneration would be required. This would mean that all the electricity produced by the fuel cell can be used for work, and not for regeneration of the zinc.
Hypothesis: It is known that the fuel cell generates heat as it produces electricity from the hydrogen/air sources. It is therefore proposed that the capturing of this heat to warm only the side of the reactor that holds the zinc electrodes would speed the reactions that regenerate the zinc metal enough to overcome the slower rate of these reactions; allowing the zinc regeneration to occur at a rate that would compete/balance with the hydrogen production rate; thus eliminating the need to electrically regenerate the zinc electrode.
By doing it this way, the zinc side(oxygen production) of the reactor will always be warmer than the tungsten/carbide side(hydrogen production). This would mean that the rate of the zinc regeneration will be speeded, perhaps enough to eliminate the need for electrical zinc regeneration.
The reactions involved from around paragraph [0113] of the patent:
This reaction uses the magnesium colloid to regenerate the zinc as follows:
2Mgc + 2Zn+2 --> 2Mgc+2 + 2Zn
This reaction uses the OH- ions to regenerate the zinc and produce oxygen:
2Zn+2 + 4OH- --> 2H2O + 2Zn + O2
By using heat to speed these reactions it may balance the rates enough to eliminate the need for electrical regeneration. By attaching the fuel cell to the zinc side of the reactor the heat will always transfer to the Tungsten/Carbide side of the reactor slower, so that side will always be cooler and the reactions there would always be slower relative to the zinc side.
This will be the first experiment I perform, which will merely be placing the fuel cells under or against the zinc side of the reactor.
My attempts at chemically balancing the reactions failed in the past because I believe as I changed concentrations of one component, it always altered the concentrations of all the other components in the cell, thus slowing one side of the reaction as it sped up the other side of the reaction. Therefore, no improvement in zinc regeneration.
This new method would use heat to simply speed up one side of the reaction, thus favoring the regeneration of the zinc.
Thank you for your interest.
Hi All,
One other thing I need to mention. In the past when I tried to increase the amount of NaOH in the solution, it always ended up kicking out one or both of the colloidal metals that had been previously dissolved in solution. By altering the addition of the colloidal metals until after the NaOH was dissolved in the deionized water, I was able to increase the amount of NaOH to twice the amount from 10grams/100ml of solution to 20g/100ml of solution. When the colloidal metals were added afterward, they did not kick out. So the order of addition was important. First the NaOH, then the colloidal magnesium and colloidal silver.
In the equation from the patent:
This reaction uses the OH- ions to regenerate the zinc and produce oxygen:
2Zn+2 + 4OH- --> 2H2O + 2Zn + O2
By being able to increase the amount of OH- ions, this also helps to speed the regeneration of the zinc without the use of electricity.
Perhaps I can get it even higher in concentration. This would help, as long as the solution doesn't get so viscous that the bubbles can't get through it. LOL!
Just wanted everyone to know what I have been working on as well.
Thanks you for your interest.
Thanks for the details, RR2... it helps us all understand the science behind what's really goin' on in thar-
As the NaOH concentration increases, so does the speed at which the sealers will break down. Shouldn't affect the case joints, but there will be a point when the adhesives begin to destabilize and liquify...
Oh, "what a fool am I, quoth he..."
I fergot yer a polymer chemist...
DUH!
Back to the pond,
Turtle
Quote from: keithturtle on July 02, 2007, 06:11:56 PM
Oh, "what a fool am I, quoth he..."
No, you're no fool. I honestly don't know what is going to happen to the gasket sealer. It says it should stand up to chemicals and heat, but I had no time to do materials research. Fortunately it won't be immersed in the electrolyte solution, just exposed to any hydroxide "fog" that may rise and sublimate on the reactor top, sides, etc. I'm going with the Thomas Edison method of research on this one. Just try it. If it works, great. If it doesn't work, great. At least I will know what doesn't work then. In that case, I will try something else.
Thanks for the input Keith.
Maybe, but it ain't often I get to quote Bunyan on this board <big grin>
Jes don't leave the cell sitting idle with OH- in it, I reckon...
Keith
Did first leak test today. Found three leaks. Two very small, one a bit larger. Couple of days needed to dry, fix, and dry. Too bad. I wanted it to be working on the 4th of July. INDEPENDANCE DAY!. Oh well. :(
Never give up! Never surrender!!
Hey !
I am also going to replicate experiment #13
Just a quick question:
How much grams would be a tea spoon NaOH and how much grams would be a soup spoon NaOH ?
(a have no precise scale available here)
Thanks for a short reply
bitbo
Bah! I hate leaks...
:: PVC fumes flashback ::
Toughest part of this whole project for me.
Do you want to hear the worst part of all?
Water proof isn't necessarily hydrogen proof.
Keep it up man, I hope to be back on this project soon.
Have a nice 4th!
~Dingus Mungus
Hi Bitbo,
One of the best sites I like for conversion factors is:
www.convert-me.com
This works great.
Unfortunately, I don't have an analytical scale at home so I use a ruler balanced on a pencil with dixie cups on each end. An American penny after 1982 weighs 2.5 grams. I put the pennies in one cup and the NaOH in the other. I never weighed one tsp full of NaOH so I don't know the answer to your question. Sorry.
The next time I prepare electrolyte solution I will try to remember to get the answer to your question.
Thanks for your interest and good luck with exp.13
Hi Bitbo,
I am mixing the electrolyte solution for my reactor and I have an answer to your question.
1 soup spoon (tablespoon) of NaOH powder = between 13-15 grams.
thats 5-6 USA pennies (post 1982).
That's the closest estimate I can give you with the equipment I am using.
Hope the helps.
My reactor should be up and running tommorrow. (fingers crossed) I don't want to pull a Steorn. lol
Thanks !
I will start with an 3/4 table spoon/100ml until the balance arrives...
Crossing fingers for you
Bye
Olaf
Well I've been working on the reactor all day yesterday and today. I am sorry to say I must have a leak I cannot locate. I had a leak between the hydrogen and oxygen containers which I fixed yesterday; but today I cannot get a flow out of the hydrogen chamber. The leak might be on the oxygen side because it seems to be escaping from there. I used soap solution on all the seams to see if I could locate bubbles, but none showed up. I even immersed the reactor but no bubble flow showed itself.
When I put the reactor on forced hydrogen flow with a D battery I get a flow, kind of dinky, but the reactor is filled with small bubbles. Very frustrating at this point. I should be getting a rapid flow without the battery, but it is just not happening. I have pulled a Stoern. I am very sorry. It was the one thing I did NOT want to do. I would have rather been hit by a truck, but this is what happened.
I need to take a step back and review the fundamental design of my reactor. I must have some flaw somewhere. Sorry fellas, I did not want this to happen, but it might be something simple right in front of my face. Give me a bit to review. Maybe take the reactor lid off and reseal everything. I attached the pics. you can see the bubbles filling the reactor, but I get no flow out of the hydrogen tube. The oxygen side was plugged during my testing, but not in these pics so I don't want you to think that that is why it's not working. I haven't lost my mind totally yet.
I need to review. :'(
ResinRat2,
No you did not pull a Stoern, by the way, Stoern may have had a bad part in his motor, but that did not prove that his process or his ideas are not good. Anyway RR2 you have been at this for a long time and you are in no way giving up on this, things will pan out and you will find the problem. You have a nice looking REACTOR, soon it will be working like you have intended it to work. Things never happen over night, if this was so easy everyone would have had one working in a short order, again you have stuck with it this long and I am sure you will get it all figured out very soon.
Regards
Trump
Patience, ResinRat2, patience...
See, your cell is working after all. It is teaching you patience. Same as mine are, I may add...
Hang in there. Lookin' good so far.
Turtle
touch a 9 volt battery to it!!!
You could hose off both outlets and turn it upside down to check for leaks. If you plug the hoses and run it upside down it should pressurize the vessel to further reveal the leak locations or even perhaps show us if pressure inhibits gas production... You probably just have a leak in an area where there is no water pressure like the lid assembly. To check for hydrogen leaks I use a lighter, looking for orange crackling flame. Hang in there buddy you're almost done with a semi closed loop reactor all thats left is the seal. Great things never come quickly or easily.
~Dingus Mungus
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on July 09, 2007, 03:18:48 AM
You could hose off both outlets and turn it upside down to check for leaks. If you plug the hoses and run it upside down it should pressurize the vessel to further reveal the leak locations
I'll try this Chris, thanks for the idea.
@Keith and Trump
Don't worry, I'm not giving up. It's just another problem that needs to be identified and fixed. I'm used to that. Thanks for the votes of confidence guys.
Hi ResinRat2
Ok sorry I'm a newbie and have come in a bit late. I am very interested in what you are doing but I can't find anywhere in these post what your final goal is. will it be possible to power a car or something similar when you are done with these experiments. sorry to sound so dumb but i have made so many attempts myself at fuel cells etc. using electronic hydrolysis but have never succeeded at making enough gas to power a car. i see on youtube a guy by the name of daniel dingle has done this as well as stanley meyer , both using electricity. your chemical method looks really promising - i will buid one when you publish the plans. thank you for all your hard work here. i'm sure you will make it work and i hope i can run my car for FREE lol if that is your intention.
darc
Hi Darc,
The final goal is simply to show overunity. A reactor that can run continuously while recycling all components and producing an excess of power through a fuel cell. Ideally it would be completely sealed from the environment and recycle the water as well. What it would really be running on is the ambient air temperature, using energy from the atmosphere to produce hydrogen through Dr. Griffin's electrolysis process which is an endothermic chemical reaction. This hydrogen would then go through a fuel cell and produce electricity which would be used to run electrical devices.
Picture a sealed black box with an outlet on it. The energy would be taken from the air temperature, produce electricity; then the electricity would go through your desired electrical device (motor, etc.) which would then put the heat back into the atmosphere. A perfect "green" cycle.
Hi Chris,
I believe I found my leak. It was in the top cover gasket. One section had what looked like pinholes in it. I discarded the gasket and am making a new one. This was on the oxygen (zinc) side just as I suspected.
If at first you don't succeed, ....
ResinRat2
Thanks for the update - this is amazing - i'm sure you gonna do it!! just adjusting my cosmic molecular disseminator to send you the right vibes to complete this lol
Where is your spell check? WOW! ordered all today, i have 2 fuel cells i use to seperate hyd & ox with a salt bridge, will try the same with Linnards.
Hi All,
Dr. Linnard Griffin sent me a short video of one of his reactors working. Look how cool and tiny it is. Maybe I'll be able to build one like this one of these years. LOL.
As long as I can fix my blasted LEAKS!!!!!
Enjoy!
OK, ResinRat2, it looks alot like yers; did he send construction notes as well?
Might be asking a bit much, but after all, you'd think Dr Linnard would want his work validated. Mebbe there's more to it than we know, like somebody's gots their bootheel on his neck, possibly?
I dunno, jes the "conspiracy theorist" in me rearing his ugly haid...
Turtle
Thanks for the video ResinRat2. What an amazing little cell! I want one! Did he say how long it goes for and does this one regenerate it's anode/cathode? What material is he using for the anode and cathode and what kind of electrolyte is he using? As soon as I can get some idea of the stuff I need to make a cell like you are making I,m taking a year off to see if i can make one. Thanks again for being such an inspiration
Thank Darc
ResinRat
Keep up the good work. I usually always try to look in and see how you're doing whenever I check in.
We're all rooting for ya'.
Cue cheers from sidelines...
Dan
Quote from: keithturtle on July 12, 2007, 11:34:23 PM
OK, ResinRat2, it looks alot like yers; did he send construction notes as well?
Might be asking a bit much, but after all, you'd think Dr Linnard would want his work validated. Mebbe there's more to it than we know, like somebody's gots their bootheel on his neck, possibly?
I dunno, jes the "conspiracy theorist" in me rearing his ugly haid...
Turtle
No Keith, he sent me no construction plans and no details on its construction. If he did, do you think I would be spending all this money and going through all this trouble trying to get something to work. Even this reactor I am trying to finish has its problems. I noticed that the angle of the holes that permeates the barrier between the two chambers does not appear to be steep enough. I am getting gas mixing between the two chambers. So it still has its problems.
All I have is the patent and my own determination to get this working. That means learning one mistake at a time. I have already spent thousands of dollars of my own money trying different materials and designs. I am just dead-set on getting something to work right now. I think my background in research helps me to realize that the majority of my work will be failures and that each failure helps me learn what NOT to do. It also helps me turn in the right direction for my next experiment.
Dr. Griffin has posted many videos on the net of his past work. I believe this video is just another presentation that allows everyone to see his process does work, and works very well. He needs no one else to validate his work.
Thanks for your interest.
Hi All,
Something interesting I noticed, if you look at the background of the video, (at about 0:32 ) he is performing his experiment on what looks like a dining room table. At the far end of the table I see salt and pepper shakers, both open; and on the right side I see a beaker with a funnel on it and some water and whitish solids inside of the beaker.
Does this mean he is using table salt (and maybe table pepper -- lol) inside this tiny reactor. I don't know, just an observation. I don't know if his patent lists table salt (NaCl) in any of the experiments. Then again, maybe he just got through eating lunch. ;D
Assuming he is married; I just know he must be a brave man, or his wife is very understanding, (or not at home right at that time) because I sure as heck couldn't get away with that if my wife was around. -- LOL! :D :D
Go Dr. Griffin!!!!! ;D
Hi All,
I managed to repair the leak in the cover. Started the reactor going, but I noticed it had developed a very tiny leak around the small tungsten electrode. It was so small I just ignored it for my initial testing.
The reactor filled with bubbles as before, but it looked like only about half the tungsten/carbide electrodes were giving off gas. There must be a problem getting good contact between the electrodes. I jiggled the reactor a bit and got them to settle some. Gas started coming off.
I was able to get a flow out of the tube so I hooked it up to the fuel cell. Voltage built up to over 1 volt so I touched it to the small demonstration fan I have. It ran for 3-4 seconds, then died. I disconnected the wire for about 10 seconds, touched it to the fan, again it ran for 3 or 4 seconds or so, then died again. This I repeated dozens of times.
OK, I am getting a flow rate, but not fast enough to sustain the fan continuously, so the rate is slow. I come to the following observations for this first experiment.
1) The reactor top leak is sealed, but I am now sealing the leak around the small electrode. This will take 24 hours to dry.
2) There does not seem to be good connections between the tungsten/carbide electrodes. I will try to jiggle them around a bit and get them to be in better contact with each other.
3) If the rate is still too slow, then I will open the box (NOOOOOO!) and add more tungsten/carbide electrodes. Maybe even joining them together with solder flux to be sure their connections are good. Then I will have to seal the top of the reactor again and wait another 24 hours for it to dry.
4) I am very close here. Just a few more fixes and I should have a good flow rate. Enough to drive the fan and maybe some other devices. Hopefully close to Dr. Griffin's demonstration video.
5) Though the rate was not what I wanted, I believe this can be fixed without too much trouble.
At least I have Dr. Griffin's video to inspire me on.
Thank you all for your interest.
ResinRat2
This is great news!! I am so looking forward to seeing your stuff work and to make one. All I can say is that you are an inspiration and when you get this happening the world will owe you big time.
go ResinRat2 go !!!
Good work!! Sorry I have not replied lately, but I have been observing! Lately I've been having trouble finding a job to fund my research and some experiements I want to conduct with so many different things. Ugh, money... Pretty soon I'll be paying bills, and that's not going to be fun. Even if this isn't producing a tremendous amount of gas, it still has a COP approaching infinity since there is no work put into the system (not accounting all of your struggle trying to get the damn thing to work) and an efficiency that's amazingly high too. I'd cosider it free energy in the sense that I'm not putting anything in except zinc and tungsten, and that's only once! :D Best of luck to you, ResinRat!
Congrats on the replication!
I know fixing the leaks will greatly improve your output, as hydrogen is quite tiny and nimble. Altho its unfortunate to hear about the gas contamination happening in your bridge. I've been reading a lot recently about zinc air fuel cells, and its remarkably similar while different. I'm losing my mind over here wishing I could be working on this again.
~Dingus Mungus
Zinc-Air Fuel cells? Never heard of them, sounds like its time to ASK.Com them.
I'll get it working good, just need a bit more time thanks.
Have a good day everybody.
I took the reactor apart last night after making my decision. I'm going to solder-flux the tungsten/carbide electrodes together to improve the connections between them. Then I'm going to reassemble the reactor and try again.
It's going to be a couple of days to complete all the soldering and resealing. I'll report back when it's completed.
Thanks for your interest.
Hi Chris,
Quick search on zinc air cells gave me this link:
http://www.fctec.com/fctec_types_zafc.asp
Over-all By-products are CO2 + H2O plus a zinc anode depletion.
I don't like the CO2 coming off much. Is this what you suggested? Maybe I searched the wrong thing?
CO2 = bad
Definately don't want that as a by product! :D
Good luck, ResinRat2!
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on July 15, 2007, 01:21:50 AM
I'm losing my mind over here wishing I could be working on this again.
~Dingus Mungus
Don't worry Chris. Once you start working on this project again you'll be making expansions, upgrades, improvements, etc., etc. You'll get to fix all my screw-ups and design flaws. I get to make all the big mistakes and expense in getting something running. In other words, I get to make the Model T. You get to design and run the Cobra!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 8)
ResinRat2
Since the tungsten carbide electrodes are welding rods is it possible to just weld them together in such a way as to give maximum surface area. Something like a porcupine arrangement springs to mind.
darc
Hi Darc,
That is exactly what I am looking into. I have leftover thoriated tungsten welding rods from the earlier experiments on this project. I personally don't have a welder, but I know a couple of people who do so I will be asking for their assitance. I greatly appreciate the suggestion, and I am open to any other suggestions you or anyone else may have. Since I am basically flying blind here, I am trying to feel my way along to see what works.
I appreciate your interest.
Hi ResinRat2,
The electrode in the small reactor is made of nickel/iron. Get some 200 or 201 nickel and gas weld a layer of rusted baleing wire on the outer surface. Use a carbonizing flame with the torch. Keep up the good work.
Linnard
Thanks very much Dr. Griffin. We were wondering what the cathode was in that neat little reactor you were demonstrating. Very impressive unit for only 3 inches or so across.
Can anyone begin to imagine the ouput of a unit the size of a microwave oven, or even the size of a small house. Incredible!
Wow! Its always exciting to hear something new from the inventor! I have a theory though... I assume Dr. Griffin is only choosing to foreward select details about his device as he would like to see us discover something new, based on the same electronegitivity relationships. While I still believe that replication should be our number one goal, when I do return to this project I'll be starting a new set of materials research experiments. I'm sure other combinations in the same ballanced format may show us something equally as amazing.
Many thanks to Dr. Griffin!
(and RR2 of course)
~Dingus Mungus
@DR. Griffin; Thanks for coming on board. It's an honor to hear from the one to whom many of us look for inspiration in our quest.
@Dingus;
I would take you to task for the comment suggesting Linnard may indeed be disingenuous in his postings. For crying out loud, give the man a chance to express himself! (RANT RANT SNORT... wait a minute- turtles cain't snort!)
@ResinRat2; I'll be glad to burn those rods fer ya... gots the acetylene torch and miles of rusty fence ready to go... what was that alloy again?
Turtle
Quote from: keithturtle on July 17, 2007, 10:37:52 PM
@Dingus;
I would take you to task for the comment suggesting Linnard may indeed be disingenuous in his postings. For crying out loud, give the man a chance to express himself! (RANT RANT SNORT... wait a minute- turtles cain't snort!)
Whoa! Whoa! Keith! Easy dude, Dingus is my buddy, and he and I have been working on this together. I think you misunderstood what he meant. Don't you think that Dr. Griffin would have told us what to do exactly if he wanted to? Obviously he does not want to tell us much. Look at the number of his posts. Doesn't that tell you something. He obviously is telling us almost nothing outside the patent. I'd be the first guy to defend him if I could anyway.
So please, let's all lighten up. This has been a cool journey of research and development. We are discovering this process as we go. Let's look at it that way and don't expect Dr. Griffin to tell us much. This is for us to find out. So let's all get along and work at the goal. After all, why should he tell us anything. He can do it all himself, and he doesn't need us at all. Not at all!
I just don't want anybody jumping on me next! Let's just do our best and throw out the ideas. We'll get to where we want eventually. Let's all stay cool 8).
Think hydrogen ---- think unlimited energy ---- think peace baby!!
Methinks I spoke too hastily, ResinRat2, for I mean no malice to brother Dingus. I jes interpreted the 2 posts of Linnard as "we're jes gettin' started here..."
Apologies to all offended (turtle loweres his haid and slips back into the water beneath the pond scum).
And I'll still burn those rods fer ye if you'll give me specific parameters.
Gracias,
Turtle
LOL! I believe I was missunderstood. The new electrode described by Dr. Griffin is not standard to the patent app. That tells me two things.
1) The patent app is just a basic outline of how the system ballances.
2) The metals listed can be replaced with other metals if you can maintian their ballanced electronegitivity driven relationships.
I think Dr. Griffin is helping us to realize the most important developement in hydrogen production ever... I also believe his post was obviously aimed to stimulate not instruct. That is exactly what it has done for RR and I. RR has the missing component that we would have never found on our own, and I was reminded that there are thousands of possible combinations that may result in something amazing. I'm really itching to get back to work here.
I'm all warm and fuzzy right now... Not confrontational at all!
Lets get this technology going guys!
~Dingus Mungus
Did I waste an apology? There's plenty left, and I reckon I'll need 'em all 'fore this is over.
Anyhow, my last trip to ALRO netted me 20' (+ or -) of 0.125 round 316 / 316L rod. Will that help the cause? I can glaze it with [whatever] and send lengths as needed.
Back on the log,
Turtle
Pshhh... No need to apologise really! Its so easy to misinterpret internet prose.
I found in my experiments with 316 that the Zn(OH)2 was either plating to or somehow accumulating on my SS cathode. I was planning on using 316 as a reduction anode for the cell. Its great for electroplating zinc to zinc, but if it's not driven with voltage it shorts the cell, spontaniously becomes the cathode, puts off minimum gas, and ruins the cells chemistry pretty quickly. None the less its a super usefull alloy for lots of things though, as it doesn't oxidize very easily.
~Dingus Mungus
Well the truth is that the way I have my cell designed right now I will need to use the tungsten/carbide electrodes that I have. It is already set on the material for the cathode because I have it cemented in place. The rest of the tungsten electrodes I have wrapped with solder-flux wire and the group of 12 is joined together; so for this first cell I won't be doing much material research other than the connections being joined with solder.
I should have the cell filled with electrolyte and the cover sealed in place within three days.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Hi All,
Whooottt!! I finally got the reactor running. I attached the movie of the first run.
You may ask: why does RR2 have a bottle of Methylene Chloride on top of the reactor? This is because there is a leak between the hydrogen and oxygen chambers and the bottle has just enough weight to seal the leak.
I also have a leak on the small tungsten/carbide electrode that is very slow. Leaks, Leaks Leaks!!! Very frustrating.
The movie shows the reactor in operation. I tried to show around it so you see only the electrodes are connected. No batteries anywhere. Also I had my voltage meter in the circuit to read the amps. Here are the numbers: I had it over three volts, on load with the fan I get about 33mA at 1.4 volts.
The numbers should improve as the fuel cell hydrolyzes and becomes moist.
I will comment more later. The fan is running constantly and it should keep going as long as there is water.
I am a bit excited right now. :o Not much power yet, but once the leaks are all fixed it should be much better. The gas has the reactor filled with bubbles. Pretty cool
Thanks for your interest.
Deleted.
Hi ResinRat2,
well done ! Congratulations.
Can you please let us know the exact setup details of your reactor
and the electrolyte and electrode configurations
and the exact type of fuelcell you are using ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Fantastic!
Congratulations Resin Rat
A lot of hard work and study went into this reactor and it shows.
Elegantly done . Best wishes for the future of this study .
IronHead
Quote from: hartiberlin on July 20, 2007, 09:02:19 PM
Can you please let us know the exact setup details of your reactor
and the electrolyte and electrode configurations
and the exact type of fuelcell you are using ?
The electrolyte solution I am using is modified from the original one Dr. Griffin used. I was trying to get the OH
- concentration up and doubling the amount of NaOH just made the solution far to viscous. So by varying the salt the amount of hydroxyl ions could be doubled in the electrolyte.
Take 40 ml of Distilled or deionized water. Dissolve 20 grams of Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) completely, then slowly dissolve 20 grams of Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH). To this add 20ml of 20 ppm Colloidal Silver and 10ml of 20 ppm Colloidal Magnesium. Once everything is dissolved, add more distilled or deionized water to this mixture until the total volume is 100ml. It will be a bit viscous, but the extra OH
- ions help the zinc to regenerate more easily, and they keep the pH of the solution at a higher level longer, thus encouraging production of the hydrogen as well.
The cathode in my reactor consists of twelve 1/4" X 5" Tungsten/carbide (low-cobalt) rods that I purchased from innovativecarbide.com. You can't cut these (one of the hardest substances on earth) so order them the length you need. The anode consists of four 5/8" X 6" zinc anode rods that I purchased from boatzincs.com. I purchased the 12" rods and cut them in half.
The anode and cathode are connected by ordinary copper wire that I added alligator clips to.
My reactor design is just two chambers with the holed wall between them. See the pictures just a couple of pages back. I really want to make changes. I think a verticle position for the rods is better because I see gas trapped in the crevices between the horizontal rods. Also, I need to get a bit more space between my anodes. I want to use one pair for regeneration while the other pair is used to produce hydrogen.
Here is a link to the fuel cell I am using:
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=Item/cat=24/product=43
I will be in Michigan all day tommorrow so I will be unavailable then. I really need to fix my leaks so I will probably be opening this back up again. (RATS!!!); but it needs to be done if I want any long term testing. I am just glad it got going, just so I could get mine to work similar to Dr. Griffin's posted video.
Thanks for your interest. It's just so cool seeing the fan running. I bet I could hook up a bunch of LED lights to this and get it to shine too. LOL!!!
Very very nice! Great work! This system has a COP of infinity since you aren't putting any work in. I'm very impressed with the amount of dedication and hard work you put in! Good job!
How long will it run? Do the elctrodes deplete?
Have a great day!
Quote from: Super God on July 20, 2007, 10:32:18 PM
How long will it run? Do the elctrodes deplete?
Dr. Griffin said he had some that ran for months. He didn't say whether he regenerated anything; but based off my previous experiments, the anode should regenerate. I am going to develop the regeneration system I need based off this reactor and some experimentation.
I would eventually love to see this unit hooked up to a 6 or 12 volt battery and use it to run one of those electric scooters. Imagine a scooter that can run and recharge itself forever. Just imagine ;D!
As far as I can see right now, as long as it has water it should run.
We shall see.
w00t indeed!!! Thats a very nice prototype you have there!
I didn't know you could use Dichloromethane to fix acrylic leaks...
(j/k) :D
~Dingus Mungus
Methylene Chloride was recommended to me by a colleague at work who uses it to build plexiglass fish tanks. It still didn't fix my leaks around the electrode.
Oh?
I was joking because its weight was stopping the leak.
Neat... I'll have to remember that for my replication attempt.
Be careful though I read somewhere it was a carcinegen. (?sp)
~Dingus Mungus
I just spent all day reading this thread, and I'm quite impressed with the dedication to this project. I have been dabbling in Hydrogen on Demand experiments, and have made a couple of nice replications. I'm not scientifically inclined, so I'm not sure how to go about measuring gas output, but I do know that the cells I put together produce ALOT of gas. But that's neither here nor there. I'm interested in this design. I was wondering something. Would Baking Soda work in place of the NaOH and KOH? Or something like Vinegar or Lemon Juice perhaps? Just curious.
And if you were wanting to produce HHO gas, could you set up the positive and negative electrodes utilizing the Tungsten in .25" OD rods, 3 of them, set in a triad, bundled together, inside of a .75" OD Zince Tube with a .065" wall thickness? Currently, that is how I have one of my electrolyzer cells set up with 316L Stainless Steel, and it's only 5 inches long and produces a nice amount of hydrogen off of 12v/6amps, and 12v/2 amps. Like I said, I'm not "science" smart, so what I just asked may have made everyone in here dumber just having heard it. But any info would be great. :)lol.
Thank you and keep up the awesome work. I am thinking of trying to replicate this design you have, but I'm afraid of caustic solutions, because I'm clumsy.
Good job on getting it working, ResinRat2;
Now about those leaks, lemme take yer hand an' walk ya thru this... (no offense)
Go down to the local hobby shop that sells high-end Radio-controlled airplanes, and git yerself a 1 ounce bottle of "Thin Cyanoacrylate" [CA], medium CA and a spritzer bottle of accellerator.
Unless yer reagents are real strong, this stuff, once polymerized, will stand up to dang near any chemical ya care to throw at it.
Around them pesky rod holes, clean, reclean then clean again (99% isopropyl oughta do it) then apply a couple drops of medium ca at the rod/case interface. roll the thang around to get a nice meniscus, then spray the kicker on it.
That is a seal I'd guarantee, and heat won't bother it till ya melt the acrylic.
Use the thin fer case joints, and DON'T kick it unless there be a gap.
Ya might check out the applications here
http://www.zapglue.com/New%20Pages/ZapCA.html
BTW: I even fixed a puncture in my turtle's carapace with the medium... held till he grew some more shell... this stuff is great. AND DON'T USE THE GROCERY-STORE CHECKOUT BRAND!
Good luck on sealing.
Turtle
Hi to all helping free the people without hiding or secrets. I am very happy to find this forum from youtube videos of resinrat and ironhead. I know this forum is full of highly motivated people other then them. And to all of you thanks for your interest and work. Anyway this is my first post so I just wanted to let ALL of you know that what you are doing is revolutionary and greatly appreciated by all. I have a question on the electrolite. I was going to make some to work with you.
Electrolyte solution:
10 grams NaOH
20ml of 20ppm concentration of colloidal silver (silver colloid)
10ml of 20ppm concentration of colloidal magnesium (magnesium colloid)
bring this mixture to a total of 100ml with deionized or distilled water.
I am not a chemist by any means in fact I don't even really cook well as far as measurments and diluting go. If you can please explain some of how to dillute a solution and what to dilute it with? As Far as the NaOH solution is this just Sodium Hydroxide? I have some high concentrate Postasium Hydroxide that I have been using with my SS 316 electroliss experiments and wonder if that would work instead of the Sodium Hydro? I know think that sodium is an acid and potassium is a base? Anyhow I am not asking you to use Potasium but just asking for any info on the differences. Somewhere I read that if you use Potassium instead of NaOH that in the electrolizer the base potasium hydroxide will not turn to gas and then you don't have to add electolite ever? By no means am I trying to hi jack this thread and take away from what your doing and make it a electrolisis discussion. These questions may belong in a different topic but I am a newbie to forum. Anyhow Congrats on what you all have accomplished.
Yiasas
.
I've never tryed KOH in a test cell, but I would assume it works very simularly, as they are both basic (NaOH not Acidic) and they're electronegitivity is still well below the other active metals. I would suggest you attempt a cell with both and campare your outputs and run time. If they're both still producing at the same rates after 100 hours and show the same PH, then you know its stable enough for a long term cell.
Good luck and welcome to the forums,
~Dingus Mungus
,
Quote from: keithturtle on July 21, 2007, 02:19:57 AM
Now about those leaks, lemme take yer hand an' walk ya thru this... (no offense)
Go down to the local hobby shop that sells high-end Radio-controlled airplanes, and git yerself a 1 ounce bottle of "Thin Cyanoacrylate" [CA], medium CA and a spritzer bottle of accellerator.
Thanks Keith, I will try this. I greatly appreciate the suggestion.
Quote from: Bouzouki on July 21, 2007, 08:39:15 PM
Thanks I will try that. Has anyone ever used this solution in a electroliss cell ?
I did some tests with tungsten electrodes @ 24volts (i think)
I had erosion of the cathode and slow building cell heat. Nothing
seemed to be perticularly interesting about the use of the elecrolyte.
~Dingus Mungus
ResinRat2
Well done! Thats fantastic - big oil quake in your boots!! It may take sometime but this is the beginning of the end for them - the hydrogen economy is here thanks to you guys. Oh these are exciting times yesss
Darc
Hi Darc,
Yes, this is the beginning of the end. I posted on YouTube:
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=iUDBJCRCe_E
and Videopile:
http://www.videopile.com/video/HqkvOI1Mw9uN
I love the song I picked for the video. To me, it fits how I feel. Dr. Griffin deserves our admiration!
I will plug the leaks with Keith's advice, then begins the long-term testing and maintanence. This will be the interesting part of the project (lol). Long-term energy production!!!!!
Sweet video. That will show them! Does the NaOH solution run out though? Or does the water from the cell come back into the tank somehow? Can't wait for the long term test! Good luck ResinRat! and GREAT JOB!
-Brian
Amazing video RR!
I'm so excited for you. Congrats again on the first verified replication. You've gotten much further then most could have hoped for in most reported cases, and we can spread the word of a solution confidently because of all your efforts.
Also if Dr. Griffin is reading this: We know your technology works and can show the world its not magic or a scam. You've created something that has the potential to change the world, and I believe everyone would collectively thank you if only they knew or understood your gift. Good luck on manufacturing and distribution we all hope to be the first to purchase a reactor/fuelcell unit from you.
~Dingus Mungus
Yes indeed. Without Dr. Griffin's experiemntation we wouldn't have this process in the first place! Thank you Dr. Griffin!
Outstanding, ResinRat2, simply outstanding!
Thank you for your perseverence in this. It can be done. And thanks to Dr. Griffin fer the impetus, and to Stephan for gettin' us all addicted to this elixir of "overunity".
And I'm glad I ain't the one who gets to put all that work into a cogent presentation of 1000 words or less <big grin>.
But I'll help if you need. I've always wanted to be a technical writer!
Turtle
Yes thank you Dr Griffin - you are a Hero of the first order! Thank you from me and my kids for starters. This is truly fantastic - the stuff of dreams. I'm off to buy stuff to make my cell oh yea!! lol
RR2 - do you know if the electricity produced is enough to completely regenerate the zinc electrode?
Darc
Hi Everyone,
We still don't have a closed loop on this one yet. All I have right now is a hydrogen producing reaction that can run a fan. I could take a rod of aluminum, immerse it in concentrated NaOH solution, and it would do the same thing while consuming (oxidizing) the aluminum. The zinc regeneration hasn't been done on THIS setup yet, but it should work based off my previous experiments. This is really still a jigsaw puzzle that needs to be put together to get the whole picture. So far I've just been investigating individual pieces: hydrogen production, oxygen production, zinc regeneration, zincate formation, etc.
I need to take this reactor apart again, clean it out, fix the leaks, and get it running again. The purpose of this unit is to learn how to run and maintain the reaction. The output seems dinky right now, but I am getting cross chamber contamination and leakage from the gas and the area around the electrodes. I am also getting entrapment of the gas between the horizontal electrodes. All these problems combined are sapping from my output. Also, the fuel cell technology is expensive. In fact, it's the most expensive aspect of the whole operation. So there is still a few hurdles to overcome.
Dr. Griffin's demonstration video of his tiny reactor is very inspiring. I can only imagine the number of failures and mistakes he has made over the years.
While I fully agree with your point Resin, there are many ballances in materials to find yet, the obervation of O2 at the anode(s) is a super good thing for us redox fans. That is what excited me most about this whole project. That "effect" coupled with the "5th metal" added to the anodes further reducing zyncates spontaniously. Plus a new tip from the man himself that none of us have fully put in to time trials yet. You must admit, things look really good... Better than most. ::grin:: As long as the oxygen is being released for free we are in the green as far as energy goes. The more spontanious oxygen in ratio to hydrogen the more green we get. Since the fuel cell technology available is highly efficent with heat as a biproduct that can fuel the endothermic reaction, this makes closing the loop even more imaginable. I see amazing things coming from this research. Lots of ballances to find though...
I truely do think this has the potential to be either CoP>1 or CoP=infinity system.
It's just a matter of time till its even further proven.
Congrats again,
~Dingus Mungus ;D ;D ;D
P.S. If you log all power consumed from your fuel cell, in a few weeks you can try the low voltage reduction cycle and measure power used till O2 production stops. That ratio of power used over many cycles should reveal an accurate CoP.
Hey, a quick question inbetween:
>I need to take this reactor apart again, clean it out, fix the leaks, and get it running again.
How do you "clean it out" ?
Just water ?
Do you recycle the "water" like the Dr. ?
BTW: Dr. Linnard silently here ?
What about licensing ? How to license ? (H2 Flow measurement ?)
Thanks for a quick reply
Bye,
bitbo
PS: My parts arrived and i am starting to build right now....
Quote from: bitbo on July 23, 2007, 07:05:01 AM
Hey, a quick question inbetween:
>I need to take this reactor apart again, clean it out, fix the leaks, and get it running again.
How do you "clean it out" ?
Just water ?
Do you recycle the "water" like the Dr. ?
BTW: Dr. Linnard silently here ?
What about licensing ? How to license ? (H2 Flow measurement ?)
By clean it out I mean I will save the electrolyte solution but I need to drain and flush out the reactor with water so I can fix the leaks. I need a clean surface, most likely clean the areas with isopropyl alcohol to get rid of any residues.
Dr. Griffin popped in a couple of times to suggest a couple of experiments. Other than that he really hasn't said much. My guess is he is getting a kick out of our research.
He's years ahead of anything we are doing here now, that's for sure. We are still groping in the dark.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on July 23, 2007, 07:44:47 AM
Dr. Griffin popped in a couple of times to suggest a couple of experiments. Other than that he really hasn't said much. My guess is he is getting a kick out of our research.
He's years ahead of anything we are doing here now, that's for sure. We are still groping in the dark.
He needs to have a consistent attitude to patents and patenting which he has
done a fair amount of. Anything disclosed on this forum will block future patents
of such science to be taken out by anybody.
Paul.
Quote from: Paul-R on July 23, 2007, 09:59:12 AM
Quote from: ResinRat2 on July 23, 2007, 07:44:47 AM
Dr. Griffin popped in a couple of times to suggest a couple of experiments. Other than that he really hasn't said much. My guess is he is getting a kick out of our research.
He's years ahead of anything we are doing here now, that's for sure. We are still groping in the dark.
He needs to have a consistent attitude to patents and patenting which he has
done a fair amount of. Anything disclosed on this forum will block future patents
of such science to be taken out by anybody.
Paul.
So why are you telling me this? Is there something I am supposed to do about that?
@RR2
Congratulations! I know you've still got a long ways to go with this... but. You've put a lot of time and effort in just getting to where you are now and here's a well deserved pat-on-the-back from all the rest of us on the sidelines watching.
Good Job. Hell, Great Job!
If everything goes well with zinc regeneration, we can scale this baby up to any size and do anything we want to. Oooo so exciting!
FYI:
I have found a supplier- here in germany where i ca, get 100mm x 100mm sheets of 99% tungsten
for $33 each. And even 1000mm x 100mm for $210.
(maybe i can get a lower price for multiple ones - anyone interested ?)
I am thinking about 5 pieces of the smaller sheets - would be a nice big area ?
My 10 tunsten rods have just 9000mm (square) area, 5 sheets would give me 100000mm (square)
What do you think or suggest ?
bitbo
Hi Bitbo,
I am interested.
Please put me onto your list.
Many thanks.
Based off my experiments, the tungsten is slower giving off hydrogen gas compared to tungsten/carbide.
I would suggest you purchase tungsten/carbide instead.
Thanks for your interest.
Hi Bouzouki,
Try this Electrolyte solution instead. It is a bit more viscous but works a bit better.
Dissolve 20 grams KOH in 40ml De-ionized or distilled water.
Once it is dissolved then add 20 grams NaOH and mix until dissolved. Then add
20ml of 20ppm concentration of colloidal silver (silver colloid)
10ml of 20ppm concentration of colloidal magnesium (magnesium colloid)
bring this mixture to a total of 100ml with deionized or distilled water.
If you can please explain some of how to dillute a solution and what to dilute it with? Diluting a solution in this case is simply adding DI or Distilled water and bringing it to the desired total volume.
As Far as the NaOH solution is this just Sodium Hydroxide?Yes.
I have some high concentrate Postasium Hydroxide that I have been using with my SS 316 electroliss experiments and wonder if that would work instead of the Sodium Hydro? You could use this also. I am not sure how it would affect the reaction rate but it would work.
I know think that sodium is an acid and potassium is a base?No they are both salts.
Anyhow I am not asking you to use Potasium but just asking for any info on the differences. Somewhere I read that if you use Potassium instead of NaOH that in the electrolizer the base potasium hydroxide will not turn to gas and then you don't have to add electolite ever? I've never heard this before. I know the sodium can turn to a gas when dissolved by combining with the oxygen. This would be an irritant to your throat and eyes. I did not see this on the MSDS or potassium hydroxide so you could be correct. I would still be cautious with breathing any fumes that come off the liquid surface when you are dissolving the KOH.
Here is a link that gives an example of dilution for ppm:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,518.msg18610.html#msg18610
This is from Reply #129
Quote from: ResinRat2 on July 23, 2007, 10:45:10 AM
Quote from: Paul-R on July 23, 2007, 09:59:12 AM
Quote from: ResinRat2 on July 23, 2007, 07:44:47 AM
Dr. Griffin popped in a couple of times to suggest a couple of experiments. Other than that he really hasn't said much. My guess is he is getting a kick out of our research.
He's years ahead of anything we are doing here now, that's for sure. We are still groping in the dark.
He needs to have a consistent attitude to patents and patenting which he has
done a fair amount of. Anything disclosed on this forum will block future patents
of such science to be taken out by anybody.
Paul.
So why are you telling me this? Is there something I am supposed to do about that?
No, except take saisfaction from the fact that the work you are doing has great
value by disclosing technology which could overwise be patented and have
everyone locked out of.
Quote from: Paul-R on July 25, 2007, 07:16:35 AM
Quote from: ResinRat2 on July 23, 2007, 10:45:10 AM
Quote from: Paul-R on July 23, 2007, 09:59:12 AM
Quote from: ResinRat2 on July 23, 2007, 07:44:47 AM
Dr. Griffin popped in a couple of times to suggest a couple of experiments. Other than that he really hasn't said much. My guess is he is getting a kick out of our research.
He's years ahead of anything we are doing here now, that's for sure. We are still groping in the dark.
He needs to have a consistent attitude to patents and patenting which he has
done a fair amount of. Anything disclosed on this forum will block future patents
of such science to be taken out by anybody.
Paul.
So why are you telling me this? Is there something I am supposed to do about that?
No, except take saisfaction from the fact that the work you are doing has great
value by disclosing technology which could overwise be patented and have
everyone locked out of.
I'm not sure what you mean. Is there something that I have done here that is NOT covered by the patent? I think everything I am doing is pretty much covered. That's probably why it's no big deal to Dr. Griffin. He's covered. If anyone wants to make something from this technology its no problem; BUT if they want to sell what they make then they would have to liscense the technology from him. Am I correct or not?
-
just some ideas. when we all understand everything about this reactor and have a reliable design we can maybe ad an ultra sonic automatic cleaning cycle to it. I was just observing a jewelry cleaning machine that uses ultra sound to clean stuff. It is amazingly effective.
darc
When you want to add something like that you need to consider how many watts of power it consumes. What would be the advantages of its use? Is it really needed?
Using part of the power output for zinc anode regeneration hurts right off the top. Anything else added only makes things less efficient.
Thanks for your input darc.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on July 27, 2007, 11:36:34 PM
When you want to add something like that you need to consider how many watts of power it consumes. What would be the advantages of its use? Is it really needed?
Using part of the power output for zinc anode regeneration hurts right off the top. Anything else added only makes things less efficient.
Thanks for your input darc.
it was just an idea as you said earlier you had to disassemble the cell to clean it. when it runs properly it may have some residue inside that needs removing so if lets say this cell was used to charge a big battery bank and it became eventually gummed up (may be this happens??) then rather than take it all apart you could just zap it with some ultra sound. just a maintainance issue if it ever arises in the future. i like automatic stuff lol
darc
That's actually a good point Darc.
I know that all my experiments that were performed in the glass cells ended up with some type of precipitate on the bottom. Some much worse than others. Also, the electrolyte salts left residues along the fluid surface line as the water was being consumed. NaOH and KOH are sometimes hard to get off glass surfaces and other surfaces once they dry. There have been other experiments where I've electroplated small amounts of one metal on the other and what looked like the silver too.
Dingus Mungus' idea was to have a layer of conductive material that covers the bottom of the cell and is connected with the anode so that any precipitate would still be in electrical contact with the electrodes. That way its not just wasted and uselessly sitting on the bottom of the cell. The idea of using the ultra sonic waves to clean off the surfaces seems pretty good now that I've thought about it for a bit. This could get the residues loosened off metal and acrylic surfaces without needing to open the cell. Good thinking.
Well it all comes down to power consumption. We shall see how it all works out in the long term testing.
Quote from: darchorse on July 28, 2007, 02:57:40 AM
Quote from: ResinRat2 on July 27, 2007, 11:36:34 PM
When you want to add something like that you need to consider how many watts of power it consumes. What would be the advantages of its use? Is it really needed?
Using part of the power output for zinc anode regeneration hurts right off the top. Anything else added only makes things less efficient.
Thanks for your input darc.
it was just an idea as you said earlier you had to disassemble the cell to clean it. when it runs properly it may have some residue inside that needs removing so if lets say this cell was used to charge a big battery bank and it became eventually gummed up (may be this happens??) then rather than take it all apart you could just zap it with some ultra sound. just a maintainance issue if it ever arises in the future. i like automatic stuff lol
darc
Eventually the walls will be zinc... The outside walls of the solid zinc reactor plated in aluminum. Then theres no problem with zincate build ups, and the greater enveloping Al surface area should aid in the catalyzed reduction effect. There will be no need for moving parts, trust us. Once the materials research is worked out it will be self contained, and since it requires such a low reduction voltage in our experiments, solar will be way more than adequate for any extra reduction cycles we may need, but I have a feeling that Dr griffin is also not done revealing his work yet. I have a feeling there already exists a cell thats in ballance. One that needs only water...
Sorry, went off on a little day dream there...
It'll be a long journey, but we're already on the right path.
~Dingus Mungus
I know I've been experimenting with the aluminum/zinc angle quite a bit lately, and I have not had a great deal of luck using the aluminum. Initially it starts to regenerate the zinc electrode, but then I found that the entire zinc surface becomes covered with the zincates, and it stops the reaction.
I've also been using rotating zinc/aluminum electrodes to try and only partially regenerate each zinc electrode so it doesn't kill the reaction; but I found that even after the aluminum is removed the zincate plating continues. Then the cell begins to fill with precipitate as the hydrogen is produced. It's really strange. One cell became half full with precipitate and started to actually be overfilled with the water solution as the precipitate was formed. One almost overflowed before I dumped it.
I think the key here is to generate the oxygen and seperate it from the zinc oxide or zinc hydroxide compounds. That needs to be done more efficiently with electrical energy.
I will be doing more experiments along this angle, but my initial goal is to use two fuel cells. One higher voltage that the other. The smaller cell only produces about 0.9 volts (300mA) and is probably enough to do the zinc regeneration on its own. That way no fancy electronics would be needed.
So much to explore, so little time. I need a research lab and some technicians!!!! LOL!!!
Thanks for your interest everyone.
Hi ResinRat2, everyone,
I've been following your developments from the sideline and must say you and the others that helped along did do a very neat job. I've also recently studied the Griffin patent. (As far as I can understand the chemical explanations...lol).
After doing this a couple og questions still remained and maybe you're willing to answer them.
First, I saw that you have a tank with two seperate chambers (hydrogen and oxygen side). The patent only uses one chamber. Is there any particular reason you are seperating the hydrogen and oxygen?
Second, if I was to build a cell too what would be the best design based on the experiences you have so far? I think it might be a good idea if you could supply everyone with a sort of standard design for the cell, so that in time we can compare results?
And last, I read your reaction medium isn a total of 100 ml right? I guess this is then mixed int the water that has to be consumed? How big is your cell or how much water/reaction medium is in it?
Hope this is not too much newbie questions for you......anyway keep us posted on your progress and good luck with the research...it's well appreciated!
Regards,
Robert
Hi Robert,
I will try to answer your questions:
First, I saw that you have a tank with two separate chambers (hydrogen and oxygen side). The patent only uses one chamber. Is there any particular reason you are separating the hydrogen and oxygen? Good question Robert, let me explain. In the patent you can see that the general trend is simply the production of hydrogen. This is where the emphasis lies. If all you are interested in is producing hydrogen then all you need is one chamber. The oxygen in the reaction combines with the zinc forming zinc oxides and hydroxides (in the basic NaOH cell) and does not come off as readily as the hydrogen. In this case the zinc is consumed and eventually depleted. The patent does mention that you can put a reverse current on the electrodes and regenerate the zinc. This will then give off the oxygen and replate the zinc on the zinc electrode; but when this is being done then no hydrogen is being produced. So the design of the cell in the patent produces either hydrogen OR oxygen. Not both in large quantities at the same time.
My cell is designed with two separate tungsten carbide electrodes and two separate zinc electrodes. The tungsten carbide electrodes in one chamber, and the zinc electrodes in the other. The idea is that a reverse current can be put on one T/C - Zinc pair of electrodes to regenerate the zinc and produce oxygen at the same time that the other T/C - zinc pair of electrodes is producing hydrogen. So my cell will produce hydrogen and oxygen at the same time. All this going on, I need to keep the oxygen from getting into the fuel cell, so I need to separate the chambers. The idea for this is that there will be no need for a period of time when the cell produces hydrogen and power from the fuel cell, then a period where it produces oxygen and no power from the fuel cell. It will be a constant output of power from the hydrogen, and a constant zinc regeneration at the same time. See how this will work? I would just switch the zinc electrode connections once per day so no single zinc electrode gets depleted. So it should be a constant runner. No separate regeneration time needed.
Second, if I was to build a cell too what would be the best design based on the experiences you have so far? I think it might be a good idea if you could supply everyone with a sort of standard design for the cell, so that in time we can compare results? I am still trying to work out the best plexiglass design. I am coming to the conclusion that the electrodes need to be in a verticle position (not horizontal like I have now). This is because I am getting gas trapped in the horizontal spaces and it is hurting my gas output. So I think a cell is best designed with the up and down length much greater than the width, with the chambers separated by a barrier that keeps the gases from mixing. The one I have now has a series of holes that form a U shape between the chambers; unfortunately I am still getting mixing of gases. I will draw a diagram soon to show you what I plan on doing next. It will be one big U shape, not a series of smaller U shapes like I have now. Other than that, the reactor design is still up in the air.
And last, I read your reaction medium isn a total of 100 ml right? I guess this is then mixed int the water that has to be consumed? How big is your cell or how much water/reaction medium is in it? My cell holds 400ml of total electrolyte solution. which is 80 grams NaOH, 80 grams KOH, 80ml of 20ppm Silver colloid, 40ml of 20ppm Magnesium Colloid, and enough Deionized or distilled water added to this mixture to give a total solution volume of 400ml.
Hope this is not too much newbie questions for you......anyway keep us posted on your progress and good luck with the research...it's well appreciated! Will do. Hope this helps. I will post the diagram soon of a probable improved cell, although I am still going to be using this present cell for my long term testing.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on July 28, 2007, 02:37:35 PM
My cell is designed with two separate tungsten carbide electrodes and two separate zinc electrodes. The tungsten carbide electrodes in one chamber, and the zinc electrodes in the other. The idea is that a reverse current can be put on one T/C - Zinc pair of electrodes to regenerate the zinc and produce oxygen at the same time that the other T/C - zinc pair of electrodes is producing hydrogen. So my cell will produce hydrogen and oxygen at the same time. All this going on, I need to keep the oxygen from getting into the fuel cell, so I need to separate the chambers. The idea for this is that there will be no need for a period of time when the cell produces hydrogen and power from the fuel cell, then a period where it produces oxygen and no power from the fuel cell. It will be a constant output of power from the hydrogen, and a constant zinc regeneration at the same time. See how this will work? I would just switch the zinc electrode connections once per day so no single zinc electrode gets depleted. So it should be a constant runner. No separate regeneration time needed.
Hi Resinrat,
Thanks for explaining the above. It is pretty clear to me now why and how you want to do this. I've gone through the whole patent again and it all gets quite clear now. I still wonder about two things though..... (if I'm allowed :) )
In the original setup as proposed by Dr. Griffin, either the zinc anode has to be replaced or it has to be regenerated, right? In the first case, where you would replace the anode, wouldn't that leave residue (zincates?) in the reaction medium and evt. spoil the medium???
If this is the case then we can only go the path of regenerating the zinc anode.... This then brings me to my second question, does the regenaration of the anode cost less power then the power you received from the cell?
something else.... I was thinking about your idea of regenerating one anode while the other one is used in producing hydrogen. Will the current that you put in the reaction medium to restore the zinc not interfere with the hydrogen producing process on the other cathode/anode set? I mean you're putting a reversed potential on the cell, will the result not be zero because there will be hardly any current flow?
I'm not sure of this but maybe it is somehow an idea to do this across two seperate cells. That is..... use the second anode/cathode pair to regenerate a anode in a separate second cell (not producing hydrogen at that time).
Sorry again for all the questions I put upon you but I'm really trying to catch up with you and the others and like to build my own cell in a while.....
Regards
Robert
Hi Robert, you wrote:
"In the original setup as proposed by Dr. Griffin, either the zinc cathode has to be replaced or it has to be regenerated, right? In the first case, where you would replace the cathode, wouldn't that leave residue (zincates?) in the reaction medium and evt. spoil the medium???" My hope is that by regenerating one of the zinc anodes at the same time the hydrogen is being produced, the formation of the zincates will be minimal. That way the chances of this happening will be small. The reaction itself regenerates the zinc by using the magnesium colloid:
2Zn+2 + 2Mgc --> 2Mg+2 + 2Zn(this is the zinc that replates)
the rate just does not quite keep up with the zinc ion formation, that is why the extra regeneration with the electrical current is needed.
"If this is the case then we can only go the path of regenerating the zinc cathode.... This then brings me to my second question, does the regenaration of the cathode cost less power then the power you received from the cell?" I will be doing this with two fuel cells (one after the other). One fuel cell will power the fan (or whatever I hook to it) and the second smaller fuel cell will do the regeneration. That is what my long term testing will do. Show how to maintain this system.
"something else.... I was thinking about your idea of regenerating one cathode(you mean 'anode') while the other one is used in producing hydrogen. Will the current that you put in the reaction medium to restore the zinc not interfere with the hydrogen producing proces on the other cathode/anode set? I mean you're putting a reversed potential on the cell, will the result not be zero because there will be hardly any current flow?
I'm not sure of this but maybe it is somehow an idead to do this across two seperate cells. That is..... use the second anode/cathode pair to regenerate a cathode in a separate second cell (not producing hydrogen at that time)." You might suspect this would happen, but my previous lab tests show that this does work. I can produce hydrogen and regenerate the other zinc anode at the same time. At least that is what it showed in my initial testing of this idea. I still need to try it long-term.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Hi everyone,
I'm about to build a cell based on Dr. griffin's patent and RR2's experiences. I just have a hard time finding a shop to order magnesium colloid. The silver colloid is no problem.....
Can anyone point me to a webshop where i can order it? Preferably in Europe but if neccesary anywhere is fine.....
Thanks for your help!
Robert
www.wateroz.com
This is were I order magnesium and silver colloids through the internet.
Good luck Robert.
I just got back home from vacation yesterday. I can FINALLY get back to work. Washington DC was cool, but I think hydrogen is more interesting. LOL!
Hey ResinRat! Glad you had a good time in DC! Good luck in your experimentation.
Quote from: dutchy1966 on August 05, 2007, 05:43:04 AM
Hi everyone,
I'm about to build a cell based on Dr. griffin's patent and RR2's experiences. I just have a hard time finding a shop to order magnesium colloid. The silver colloid is no problem.....
Can anyone point me to a webshop where i can order it? Preferably in Europe but if neccesary anywhere is fine.....
Thanks for your help!
Robert
Stefan produced a method for silver colloid which was the passing of
a modest current through silver electrodes for a certain duration of
time to produce a certain concentration in ppm using distilled water.
Stefan:
Will the same idea work using magnesium electrodes?
What do you suggest for voltage, current and time for a given concentration?
Paul.
Quote from: mramos on August 06, 2007, 06:28:34 AM
Dave,
http://www.keelynet.com/
First two articles on Griffin. Not sure if they are old, but he made it over there now.
Just returned from the Bahamas myself. Off to work.
Thanks Mike,
The first one I never saw before. It looks like a reproduction of experiment #22 of the patent as an example. (based off the electrodes.) The second story has been on the net for a while. It is one cool sized reactor.
Very soon guys. This stuff has to break out!
Quote from: Paul-R on August 06, 2007, 10:05:09 AM
Stefan produced a method for silver colloid which was the passing of
a modest current through silver electrodes for a certain duration of
time to produce a certain concentration in ppm using distilled water.
Stefan:
Will the same idea work using magnesium electrodes?
What do you suggest for voltage, current and time for a given concentration?
Paul.
Hi Paul,
Yes i have seen equipment for colloidal silver. I think that is the cheapest way to make some (in the long run)
Problem is getting the concentrations right with magnesium (as you say). I haven't got any means to measure it.....
suggestions welcome....
Robert
mramos wrote:
"Are you getting close?? I read about all the leaks and mechanical issues. I guess when you get to the level of these cells that will happen (hahahaha and you are a chemical scientist)." Hey Mike, what do you mean? Are you just being sarcastic? A real wise guy, eh? :D :D
"And this Linnard dude those little 3 inch cells. That is so cool!
Common Dave... I want one :) OH, OK we all want one :D" I want one too buddy! That's why I'm not giving up!!!! ;)
Hi Keith,
I've spent one to two hours a day over the last few days cleaning out all the old gasket and silicone residue from my reactor and I used your suggestion for sealing the leaks around the electrodes with the cyanoacrylic. I did what you said and used the thick CA to form around the gaps and hit it with the accelerator. BEAUTIFUL!!!! I wish I had know about this earlier. I wasted my time trying to use the silicone, which scraped right off as I was cleaning. SCHEESH! Live and learn. ;) I just wanted to express my appreciation for the info.
Thanks Keith!!
A couple more days and I'll be back in the hydrogen business! LOL!
Hi Dave,
This maybe of interest. (not sure if it was posted before, Dr. Linnard's company)
AGC?s... technology involves a novel chemical reaction created by the mixture of water, metals and nanosized colloidal metal catalysts to generate hydrogen and oxygen gas...
http://www.airgencorp.com/technology.html#thermal_hydrogen
http://www.airgencorp.com/images/img_3.jpg
Are the cell(s) in the pic very close to yours?
They even have a small fan running as you also did in your video.
Thanks
Again, nice work!
Thanks Mikestocks2000,
This is a great diagram that you reference. It shows how this reaction runs on ambient air energy (the thermal input in the lower right hand corner). The combination of ambient air energy and magnesium colloid (in my cell's case) help to regenerate the oxidized zinc metal. This is what causes the lower energy requirements. The air energy is our energy "gain" from this reaction and should be recovered when the hydrogen runs through the fuel cell.
I appreciate the information. Thanks!
Dave (RR2)
Just a thought, after finally catching up on 60 pages ;D
RR2: How scalable will this system be while still remaining in the realms of "relatively safe" for the average amateur builder?
I for one one like to see myself replicating this on a "GROG - Get Rid Of Grid" scale.
What are your thoughts?
NssB
P.S Fantastic approach and energy to your own replication of the patent, congrats!
Hi NssB,
Look here at the link to Dr. Griffin's company AirGen. It shows a few of the products they plan to sell:
http://www.airgencorp.com/product.html
Now Dr. Griffin has a video on the web where he has a plexiglass reactor about the size of one of the old large microwave ovens that he was using to run a go-cart. Initially he had the gas rate going at (in his own words) "70 plus liters per minute". If you look at AirGen product AG20 hydrogen generator at this link you will see that a rate of 75 liters per minute can give you 5 Kw of power through a fuel cell. Does that sound unreasonable? I don't think so.
The smaller generator AG6 can give off 15 liters / minute and supply a 1 kw fuel cell.
Average household power consumption: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/BoiLu.shtml
This gives you an idea of the size. Probably a unit the size of a small microwave can power the average household.
This really gives me incentive to keep up this research.
Thanks for your interest.
Thank you for your quick reply.
I am certainly inspired by your enthusiasm. The Doc may well be on the brink of going down in history as we know it.
However, I sincerely doubt the powers that be will sit idly by while we rock the ever fragile foundations of the filthy economy of oil. I guess they can't get all of us right... God bless the Internet!
The price of a 10W fuel cell is pretty high as it is, never mind a 1kW cell.
All the very best of luck with this RR2, and that goes to all the other builders as well. I for one will be following this with very close interest.
Regards
NssB
P.S My interest is the very least I can pay someone for potentially saving our world ;)
Quote from: NssB on August 10, 2007, 12:41:21 PM
The price of a 10W fuel cell is pretty high as it is, never mind a 1kW cell.
At the present time, I've seen prices around 40-60 grand. A bit steep (to say the least) but prices should drop in the future as this is still an emerging technology.
1kw wouldn't get you off the grid, but you could be running the meter backwards most of the time.
I have an average bill for household power of ?60($120 approx) a month. Over the year this works out at ?720 ($1440 approx). I'm good at Maths huh! :P
$40000 / $1440 = roughly 27 years.
So theoretically, if I get a 1KW gen, at your best price quoted.....and have it operate nominally as you are trying to....
It would take me approx 27 years to re-coup my investment. (assuming all I need is 1kW)
Assume the cost comes down by half over a 5 year period as the techology "emerges", we would still be looking at 13-18 years of recoup. I can't see government grants being on the Agenda to be honest, but you never know.
I guess we just wait and see huh...
March on!
NssB
@NssB
Guess we better figure out how to run a motor/generator combo from the hydrogen.....lot cheaper....
regards,
Robert
Quote from: ResinRat2 on August 10, 2007, 12:55:40 PM
Quote from: NssB on August 10, 2007, 12:41:21 PM
The price of a 10W fuel cell is pretty high as it is, never mind a 1kW cell.
At the present time, I've seen prices around 40-60 grand. A bit steep (to say the least) but prices should drop in the future as this is still an emerging technology.
1kw wouldn't get you off the grid, but you could be running the meter backwards most of the time.
40-60 grand? Hmm....I guess I better start saving up then. I may need to crack open my son's piggy bank too! :)
Yes, fuel cell costs are very expensive. :(
Part of the electricity would need to go toward the regeneration, I haven't even figured that aspect out yet.
I guess this would go toward any hydrogen technology as well. What flow rate do you need to run a generator? Say a 1Kw generator?
I have no idea. I'm glad you brought it up NssB. All my research has been concentrating on achieving overunity. That means excess output over regeneration costs. I haven't been looking at anything else.
Hi NssB,
Does this mean that the cost of fuel cells totally negates the usefulness of this process?
Since the regeneration of the zinc takes, according to AirGen's website, less than a volt; does this mean it is no longer worth it?
What about using a small fuel cell ( a few hundred bucks) to use just to regenerate the zinc. The rest of the hydrogen gas could go for running a generator. Would this be a more useful direction?
Quote from: dutchy1966 on August 10, 2007, 01:17:41 PM
@NssB
Guess we better figure out how to run a motor/generator combo from the hydrogen.....lot cheaper....
regards,
Robert
Sorry Robert, I missed your comment. You already suggested this.
Simple Fuel Cell Construction:
http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/echem/fuel_cell/fuel_cell.html
Is it as simple as just using platinum wire or foil? I could picture having platinum wire at the surface of the electrolyte solution in the Linnard Griffin hydrogen cell. One wire or foil catches the hydrogen, the other wire or foil uses the OH- ions. This would create a current inside the cell directly and the two wires can be extending outside the hydrogen cell, producing a voltage. The Hydrogen and OH- ions would recombine into water, right back into the cell itself. No hydrogen tubes. No water used. A completely sealed cell.
Am I just dreaming, or can somebody tell me where I am wrong.
Time to look into platinum wire, foil, or mesh prices.
Could it be as easy as that?
Hey Dingus, could this be the answer to your dream of a completely sealed unit? Can you picture it buddy?
:o
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Thats %@#!^*` awesome! I don't know what the efficiency is on that method of convesion, but it may not matter considering we get some of the O2 back for free!
Somethings not right though, if we use OH-H conversion it may unballance our colloids or worse, we could have a build up of left over O2 that escaped the zincates during reduction. Not a fully closed loop if OH-H reaction is used, but in terms of chemicly burning hydrogen in that fasion: We get an abunance of OH ions from our hydroxy when its added to water, and if the OH ions are consumed the alk metal will just make a new ion for free thus releasing another free atomic hydrogen and heat the water. That would be an interesting project to persue if it worked. It can't be that easy though, as all we would need is a OH catalyst in water, with shortable platinum electrodes above and below the water line and if this method worked on OH-H combination... It would self run once under load *if* the above the water line electrodes started out surrounded by pure H2 and it was in a pressurized vessel.
Think about it... 2-OH+H2=H2O and 2Na+2H2O=2NaOH+H2, and the cycle begins again, the resistance of the load would determine the rate of the reaction, and the max rate of reaction would determine the max amperage produced by the cell. Thats just WAY to good to be true.
I think the method shown is for H2-O2 though. Which will be much more compatable with the exp13 cell. I'll do some research on this homebrew method, but you should definitely look in to some mesh or other high surface area material to suspend in a seperate bubbler and try to match your current PEM fuel cell output as cheaply as possible. Who knows this journey may also lead to some new developements in the "poor mans fuel cell" world. I already have an idea to draw out and animate that would allow the H2-O2 to enter bubbler and allow for pressurre ballance with out any gas losses. Very neat new developement to work on! I'll post anything new I find on this subject, and will start drawing out a new concept pic involving this form of fuel cell design and a way to use it to its full potential in your reactor design.
Thanks for the GREAT update! ;D ;D ;D
~Dingus Mungus
I think efficiency is definitely the key word here. Fuel cells are expensive for a reason and thats because they are manufactured to the highest degree. If suspending a couple of platinum wires/foils above and below an electrolytic solution was indeed efficient enough, do you really think Fuel Cell developers would go to all the trouble and cost to manufacture Fuel Cells. I dunno, and I guess that's where the experimentation is required.
I've been following the Double Helix efficient electrolysis technology on another post, and something struck me.....
If somehow, you could form your Cathode and Anode into a double helix setup......would this make for a more efficient oxidation/reduction process? I'm thinking edges here.....as this appears to be what is improving efficiency in the Voltage applied hydrolysis experiments....
QuoteHi NssB,
Does this mean that the cost of fuel cells totally negates the usefulness of this process?
Since the regeneration of the zinc takes, according to AirGen's website, less than a volt; does this mean it is no longer worth it?
What about using a small fuel cell ( a few hundred bucks) to use just to regenerate the zinc. The rest of the hydrogen gas could go for running a generator. Would this be a more useful direction?
If this process is indeed OU, then the usefullness of this process is INFINITE!
OK, so fuel cells are expensive and so on and so forth. But just imagine you had a FC manufacturer willing to work with you....
Just thoughts....
Quote@NssB
Guess we better figure out how to run a motor/generator combo from the hydrogen.....lot cheaper....
regards,
Robert
Fuel Cell technology at present is far more efficient that any ICE/HCE. There is one company/individual who has developed an 8 cylinder opposing 4 which can run on Hydrogen which apparently has 90% plus efficiency. Its called the Larsen Hydrogen engine, you may have heard of it.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xlibBuHvTzA <--- Part 1
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KwKqBe5fiig <--- Part 2
Seems quite interesting. Wonder what its consumption is?
Regards
NssB
Quote from: ResinRat2 on August 11, 2007, 12:55:16 AM
Simple Fuel Cell Construction:
http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/echem/fuel_cell/fuel_cell.html
Is it as simple as just using platinum wire or foil? I could picture having platinum wire at the surface of the electrolyte solution in the Linnard Griffin hydrogen cell. One wire or foil catches the hydrogen, the other wire or foil uses the OH- ions. This would create a current inside the cell directly and the two wires can be extending outside the hydrogen cell, producing a voltage. The Hydrogen and OH- ions would recombine into water, right back into the cell itself. No hydrogen tubes. No water used. A completely sealed cell.
Am I just dreaming, or can somebody tell me where I am wrong.
Time to look into platinum wire, foil, or mesh prices.
Could it be as easy as that?
Hey Dingus, could this be the answer to your dream of a completely sealed unit? Can you picture it buddy?
Rut Roe, please be careful here as platinum is highly reactive with hydrogen, a known fact is platinum spark plugs used in a hydrogen ICE can cause pre-ignition and metal parts flying! Are you thinking of using platinum wire in the hydro gas section?? I would proceed with much caution.
How do you think a fuel cell works?
It uses the spontious reaction you describe to release electricity and heat.
Hi Biggs,
We use the platium as a catalyst in the braking of double bonds in chemical reactions, and it does corrode when in contact with concentrated basic solutions. I think this can be avoided by simply piping the hydrogen to another chamber with distilled water and the platinum above it. This would make it less likely to corrode. I'm just throwing out thoughts. Platinum is not cheap, that's for sure, but it might still be cheaper than a regular fuel cell.
I need to do some searching for other cheaper precious metals that might do this. I wonder if silver would be active enough as a catalyst for this purpose?
I found this in my CRC "Handbook of Chemistry and Physics" (63rd Edition 1982-1983) (Now everyone knows how old I am lol) under "The Elements" section describing Platinum:
:o"Hydrogen and Oxygen explode in the presence of platinum." :o
Hmmmm, Biggs gave a warning that is good to keep in focus.
I didn't want to do fuel cell research anyway. lol.
Hmmmmmm.... you both may have a point...
But that metal is used in all PEM fuel cells.
???
I think the conditions have to be just right for the detonation. The design of the fuel cell must keep it safe. Also, hydrogen won't detonate without oxygen, so keeping the oxygen at a minimal level when in contact with hydrogen should render a safe condition. Think, one electrode in the hydrogen chamber, the other electrode in the oxygen chamber. Separate, without chance of contact. That would seem safe. For a fire you need three things, heat, oxygen, and fuel. Eliminating any one component eliminates the chance of fire.
Chris, if you have a diagram of a fuel cell that uses platinum, I would be very interested in seeing its design. That should answer the safety question.
@ResinRat2
Here's a rather simple diagram with animations... there's a few other links
on various types. Hope this helps. Keep up the great work!
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-cell2.htm (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-cell2.htm)
Quote from: dlwammo on August 14, 2007, 09:29:07 PM
@ResinRat2
Here's a rather simple diagram with animations... there's a few other links
on various types. Hope this helps. Keep up the great work!
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-cell2.htm (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-cell2.htm)
Great link!
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fcv_PEM.shtml
Anode on the WC side, and cathode on Zn side.
Both above the water line of course...
~Dingus Mungus
Hi all,
Been searching round for cheap source of stainless steel. Excellent site on ebay(link below) selling all kinds of metals in the UK. Worth a look...
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/MetalsDirectUK_Stainless-sheet_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ4678907QQftidZ2QQtZkm
Regards
NssB
Quote from: ResinRat2 on August 14, 2007, 12:13:04 PM
I found this in my CRC "Handbook of Chemistry and Physics" (63rd Edition 1982-1983) (Now everyone knows how old I am lol) under "The Elements" section describing Platinum:
:o"Hydrogen and Oxygen explode in the presence of platinum." :o
Hmmmm, Biggs gave a warning that is good to keep in focus.
I didn't want to do fuel cell research anyway. lol.
Well I'm just giving a heads up, sitting back on the sidelines trying to be of some use ..I didn't want you to hurt yourself.. pure oxygen (even small amounts) will react with hydrogen and platinum so proceed with caution..
:)
Hi All,
Its been frustrating the last couple of weeks trying to get my reactor to stop leaking around the large tungsten/carbide electrode. I have tried eight times of cleaning out the reactor and resealing around the electrode with cyanoacrylic and the curing agent (kicker). Each time I was able to get a good seal when plain water or the electrolyte solution was left standing overnight in the reactor; but each time after the hydrogen reaction began a leak always developed around the electrode. It always took a couple of hours, but each time the leak redeveloped, forming next to the electrode and finally breaking through the outer acrylic that sealed around it.
After all this time I believe I finally understand why this is happening. I believe it has to do with the temperature that this reaction occurs at. When I do the sealing around the electrode it is being performed at room termperature (around 20 degrees Celsius or 68 degrees Fahrenheit) and I always get a good seal as long as the reactor and solution temperature is around room temp. Once the reaction begins the solution and reactor temperature begin to drop. The metal electrode probably shrinks from the temperature drop faster than the acrylic and pulls away from the acrylic around it, thus opening a void that causes an electrolyte solution leak.
This is probably the cause, and I cannot think of a way to solve it with the present setup. There probably needs to be some type of "O" ring that goes around the electrode and is sealed with acrylic. Probably like a void in the acrylic that the ring fits into. This would expand and contract with the electrode and keep the seal integrity. I need to think about how to do this, or chuck the present design and try something else.
Some of the reactors made out of tupperware might be a possibility. I think Yikes has been doing some.
Sorry, just wanted to keep everyone updated. I have been working on this every day, and I still keep getting leaks. I need a way to solve this.
Thanks for your interest.
@ResinRat2
What I've done in the past to seal thermocouple leads into a small acrylic container of water was to use a piece of rubber or flexible tubing that is a tight fit for the thermocouple (or in your case the electrode) and then using adhesive to seal the tubing in place once it's been fed through a hole in the acrylic case. This should allow the electrode to grow and shrink while maintaining a tight seal.
EDIT: (added)
Another way is to use two (2) o-rings. On each side of the acrylic. Use something like marine Goop to seal o-rings to the cover. Don't use it to seal the electrode. The o-ring will take care of this. I use this double o-ring as well when I can't find the right size tubing to work.
Hope this helps....
Dan
Perhaps you could try using a 'compression' type cable gland. If you look at www.rswww.com and do a search for GLAND I'm sure you will find something very suitable. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for the suggestions Dan and RW. These look good!
Cheap fuel cell?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cQg0Ur9Cko&NR=1
Thoughts anyone? This could be a possibility. Safer than plain platinum.
Thanks for your responses to my posting about your 5-metal cell on YouTube. I'm thrilled that you are doing this work, and sharing it so well. I know, it's Linnard's patent, but you are doing a lot to make it accessible to the public, to make it undeniable.
I'm working on a high-output elctrolyser unit a la Joe Cell or Meyer cell.
This open-source collaboration is terrific, a new paradigm for a restorative, cooperative, (post)industrial society
Hi Bluebatch,
My motivation is simple. I hate the way the public is being raked of so much of its wealth by the oil barons. Enough is enough. They drain away our savings by a substance that ultimately poisons the planet. This is absolutely raw, EVIL greed. My son should not live in a world with these leeches sucking the life out of everybody. I want everyone to start experimenting with this stuff and build their own power units. I want this to spread everywhere so it can't be buried and lost.
Take common ingredients, mix them in the right ratios, and presto! Hydrogen!
So now we see where I'm coming from.
Thanks for your interest
Well said, ResinRat2;
Yer waxing more and more eloquent as yer work progresses.
Welcome bluebatch. This is a great place to learn and share. Please continue in that spirit.
With hydrogen is such plenteous supply (water, etc.), it only seems resonable that the right recipe with yield adequte H2.
It jes takes time and persistence.
Turtle
Hey ResinRat2 and assistant scientists,
I've been following alternative fuel websites like keelynet and such for some time. Your project is among some of the most interesting, challenging and educational; so much so, I had to read and in some cases re-read every post ( some of the equations "phew"!! ). Even if it were to turn out that the idea was a bust (I don't believe that it is), it's been a real pleasure just to follow the evolution of the experiments. You'd be hard pressed to go see a movie with this kind of entertainment value...you certainly have my attention and that of other curious observers. If I can offer any assistance I will, but it seems like the project is being run with capable hands and minds. Keep up the good work.
Quote from: Stressed101 on August 22, 2007, 08:58:32 AM
...it's been a real pleasure just to follow the evolution of the experiments. You'd be hard pressed to go see a movie with this kind of entertainment value...you certainly have my attention and that of other curious observers.
Wow, no guns, car chases, explosions (so far), or women (well I did mention my wife). LOL! :D Still a great read for those who can appreciate what fellow Researchers go through every day. Thanks for the kind words Stressed101. Every contributer to this thread helped in one way or another and they are all a part of this ongoing puzzle. Very cool. I can only speak for myself and say that I am honored by the interests and suggestions of so many of you that helped this concept keep going (Especially Dingus, who I think is the real creator of this concept). It couldn't have gotten this far without you all. Again, all I can say is "Very Cool!"
I wouldn't have gotten very far on my own, that's for sure.
good to see u all guys doing a great job here ;)
it's much pleasure to follow ur experiments and conversations
anyway do u know about this colloid generator - http://www.biophysica.com/
which says they could make 12 different colloidal solution including magnesium.
I thinks it's very interesting to make Ag and Mg colloid at home.
thanks for good job
Hi Kilsou,
Glad you enjoy this. Thanks.
As far as the colloidal generator, I have know about this but this was something I did not want to deal with right now. I wanted to use quality colloids that have known concentrations, that way one extra variable is removed from my experiments. I may look into this in the future, but right now I'd rather spend the money and save myself the trouble.
Thanks for the suggestion though, I do appreciate it.
SOME INTERESTED RECEIVED MAILS ....
Hi all, I found this in the bulk folder, wonder why
hm?
This is from ashtweth:
--- ashtweth_nihilistic <ashtweth@gmail.com> wrote:
> To: radianth2o@yahoogroups.com
> From: "ashtweth_nihilistic" <ashtweth@gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 01:29:00 -0000
> Subject: [radianth2o] Scare Tactics used to try and
> discourage a Meyers replicaiton
>
> Please post this in as many forums publicly as
> possible do you part to
> protect yourselfs.
>
> It Seems the spooks are trying to scare Ravi again,
>
> Quote from an email last night
>
> "I have just received a call about 5 mins ago on my
> land line asking
> me to stop posting on the forums and youtube. If I
> still do they said
> that someone will have to visit me personally to
> take care of it. I
> dont have a caller ID on the line. This person had a
> British accent.
>
>
> Please try and save all the posting till now on I
> dont know if I can
> post anymore...but i'll try keep in touch.-end
>
> Do not be afraid to replicate Ravi's and Lawtons
> results and post your
> results, to be afraid is exactly what they want,
> Bill Williams took a
> shot gun to them, they have not been back, the more
> we replicate
> Ravi's and Lawtons findings the more the meek will
> by natural
> selection be quelled.
>
> I will be reporting this incident to the mainstream
> news, and
> disclosing it with our replication results which are
> under way ATM.
>
> I pity the spooks if they come after us, i have
> arranged 20 people to
> be waiting for them, I know they are reading this,
> and wanted to set
> a trap, i hope they think im joking and just come
> after us.
>
> I look forward to seeing you guys soon.
>
> Ravi and any one experiencing this is to file a
> complaint with the
> local police so that it is on record and give them
> all details. Send
> us (panacea-bocaf.org) the address of the police
> station and the name
> of the officer and the time he logged the report.
>
> If there is any one in India we know and trust also
> get them to
> contact US first. The other thing is to get Ravi the
> find out the
> names of the people who visited him from the Tax
> Office and the
> positions they hold. Give the names to us and the
> name of the person
> in charge.
> http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/EngineerinIndia.htm
>
> We have many volunteers in our Non profit org and
> even a volunteer
> private investigator.
>
> The good news is it works if they are trying to
> spook Ravi.
> So start replicating.
>
> regards
> ashtweth
>
----------------------------------------------------
other infos now:
Stan Meyers bifilar choke design - taking a look at it with references:
http://www.youtube.com/v/ozpRNpM6FqM
ResinRat....why did you disable comments on your youtube posts? I hope it wasn't because of me because your response to my questions could have been more helpful than just posting videos. All I'm asking for is a Joe Average version from anyone....not just you. Something that can power a 100 watt light bulb or produce a suitable amount of hydrogen that can do that.
The plans should give specific parts to buy from WalMart/Ace/Whereever and should be in very simple terms. This way anyone can do it. I hope someone in this forum can do this for the public since it seems you may have already put in so much time in research.
Why not take it to the next step? Otherwise, it's remains just like the Patterson-Gimlin sasquatch film--possibly just a guy in a monkey suit.
Thanks.
To answer you question: YES IT WAS BECAUSE OF YOU!!!!
It was obvious to me that you were simply hounding me. You don't believe Dr.Griffin's video, you say you think its running hot, even though I told you it runs cold. I do the reactions myself and you still don't believe me. You say your read the patent but you still don't believe it. I have no idea what is wrong with you. You are like talking to a wall. Now you are going to hound me HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is obvious to me that you don't work in research because a scientist understands that small steps beget larger ones. They build on each other. You want a 100 watt bulb lit right away, and then you make your Monkey comment. That I really don't appreciate. You were filling up my comments page with your remarks, and then you want information from me? FOR WHAT? You don't want to listen to it anyway.
What is wrong with you? You are like someone who is single-minded.
I told you, this research takes time and I am starting small to learn how to maintain it. Why should I build a larger one when I haven't even gotten the smaller one to operate long term yet. You complain that its low-voltage. Not worth looking at, and now you want me to build a larger one. GET LOST!!! Do it yourself and leave me alone.
Stephan, this guy is trouble. I can't believe he is bothering me here now.
I am going to continue my research, but I would appreciate it, leeroy, if you would quit posting attacks on my videos and you would quit bothering me here. When the time comes and my research reaches that point, then I will have larger loads and outputs; but not before. That would be a waste of money and materials.
NOW! Do You Understand? -- or is this concept even too difficult for you to understand.
Go bother someone else!!!
For those that are interested, nickel and stainless electrodes that are high in Molybdenum content reportly produce more hydroxy than normal 316 stainless. Maybe these metals have some natural endothermic properties?
The chemical gallium and titanium oxide have been linked to solar hydrogen production. Pehaps these need further research as catalysts.
Zinc has been known to produce hydrogen when exposed to extreme heat, so perhaps any reaction can be inproved through te use of hot electolyte?
Here are some interesting links:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/08/new-catalysts-t.html
Note the section in this article that says:
The gallium is a critical component because it hinders the formation of an aluminum oxide skin normally created on aluminum's surface after bonding with oxygen, a process called oxidation. This skin usually acts as a barrier and prevents oxygen from reacting with aluminum.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070827174310.htm
Thought this may be relevent to those attempting to prevent degradation of effect over time.
regards,
Runningbear
Wow. Dude. Calm down. I'm not HOUNDING you. Jesus. I believe you may be a little paranoid. I have not personally insulted you or you work. Quite the opposite. I am just a fan of free/cheap energy but I think there needs to be a litmus test for ALL of these claims. Most systems, even a couple of freakin' lemons in water can produce enough current to power a low amp motor or led. There has to be reproducible tests or it's just pseudo-science. These tests need to be something worthwhile and measurable not just low scale/difficult to measure models. For instance, how can you really tell if your experiment is running colder. Is it a 10 degree difference or is it a fraction of a degree? A nearby lamp can cause that.
I am all for research and development but I really don't appreciate the personal attacks on my intelligence or the immediate attempt to influence the admin of this site. Is this open development as everyone claims or is this just a club for people who only want to read their own thoughts.
One thing I did notice in Linnard's high producing system was a lot of condensation at the top. Is this steam?
Can anyone tell me what experiment # in Linnard Griffin's patent is close to the high producing system on YouTube? I'll try to duplicate it myself.
Leeroy jenkins... How un-original for a WOW kid... So when do you plan on building a replication then? If you read from page one you'll know what tests we have done thus far, and how we did them. Feel free to either confirm or debunk our results, but I assure you I've personally seen this cell run for weeks WHILE SHORTED! Batteries don't usually last that long when shorted... I confirmed a minor temp difference on a test cell weeks ago. The thermometers were identical before the reaction, one placed in the solution and the other left in its vessel. I would recomend you try experiment #13 for yourself. Only then will you be able to fully believe what Resin has told you. I can understand being a skeptic, but you must do more than type to know for sure...
~Dingus Mungus
Hi Chris,
Don't waste your time with this guy, all he has to do is read this thread from page one to here and he will see what we've done. I could tell him whats been done, but he won't believe me anyway.
OK Leeroy, quit wasting my time. YOU read from page one of this thread to here. AFTER you've done this reading THEN pick one of the experiments in the patent (which you've said you looked at but weren't convinced works) and perform the experiment for yourself. THEN let it run for a few weeks for yourself. Measure the temperature FOR YOURSELF. YOU! YOU DO IT! Do some work on your own and convince yourself! Then you'll know EXACTLY what the temperature differential is.
Read the patent from page one to the end also. LOOK at the equations and understand the chemistry. Maybe then you will understand what is going on and stop making foolish statements.
That is the only way someone like you is going to be convinced.
You wrote:
One thing I did notice in Linnard's high producing system was a lot of condensation at the top. Is this steam?
Can anyone tell me what experiment # in Linnard Griffin's patent is close to the high producing system on YouTube? I'll try to duplicate it myself.
My answer is: the condensation on the top is from the droplets accumulating on the reactor lid from the bubbling of the gas upward. IT IS NOT FROM STEAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (understand?) The reactor runs cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(understand?) I don't want to have to repeat this again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OK???????????? GOT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Experiment? Try #22 of the patent. See if that one works for you. I believe it has the best output of all those listed.
Why am I upset? It's because you don't listen. So quit wasting my time. Do your own experiments. Read the patent and this thread. Then come back after all that and I will answer your questions. At least then I will be talking to someone who knows what he is talking about on this subject.
No one else has irritated me like you. Why is that?
I will repeat this for the last time. DO IT YOURSELF!!!!
Thank you for responding Dingus. I know you want to defend your friend and I in no way want to discourage his work. I got interested in this experiment because of the results and the YouTube posts. I am just your average guy...no experience in this field whatsoever...that thinks its cool.
If you guys will look at a lot of the other overunity posts on YouTube, you'll realize that I've made lots of other positive comments. If resinrat had left the comments open then I would have assuredly defended him against some of the complete a@#holes that post that would have called Linnard a complete scam artist right off the bat. I am not doing that. You have to realize YouTube is like the Wild West. Don't take it so personally. If you don't like any comments just ignore them. If you think I am an idiot....fine....so be it. Just ignore me. Often when you argue with a fool, people can't tell the difference between the two.
In short, I'd like to apologize to ResinRat for any offense. It would be nice if he'd reenable the comments on his videos and just let nature take it's course. Don't even respond to anyone you think is just attempting to make you look bad. If you think that's all I'm doing don't respond. At least keep it in the open though. Definitely don't waste valuable time feeling bad about it or trying to respond to silly challenges....there will be a ton of them if it gets popular.
However, in my case personally. I am a Monday morning quarterback and you guys are the real deal. But, being Mr. Joe Average that is excited over this can you please tell me what experiment is closest to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e85aPS6P72A
If you think there is one in Linnard's pdf then let me know which one could possibly, in capable hands (probably not mine), lead to similar results. I wouldn't mind giving it a try.
Resinrat....thanks for the info. I'd appreciate you stop the personal attacks though. I will try the experiment you suggested.
I'd like you to keep something in mind though. You are not GOD. Noone has to believe you when YOU say it runs cool. I will try it for myself then I will know. I just wanted to try one that would produce more current...that's all.
For a little perspective, do you know how many people claim overunity and are just scammers. I personally have wasted at least 200 bucks from people on this very board claiming this. I got interested in the TPU experiments and there were some adds for a guy on youtube ncbookz I believe it was and I wasted 50 bucks on that pdf he sold on ebay.
That is where I am coming from. I'm certain there are 100s if not 1000s of other Monday morning quarterbacks here that may have done the same thing.
Right now, I certainly do not feel even remotely welcome on this board. I'm sure there are many others that won't join or ask questions now. Do we have to be sycophants for you to treat us with even an ounce of dignity? Will everyone that has reasonable doubt be treated so harshly? I think you should examine your comments here and quit taking everything so personally.
Thanks at least for the experiment number.
Ok, let's all start over.
Everything's cool now Stefan. We bunch of little girls have ended our spat!
THIS IS JUST A JOKE but could someone show me how to make a water power car so the bad guys can put a gun to my head and say TAKE THE 20 MILLION OR ELSE, I could do with 20 mill.
OK Rozz, thanks for the icebreaker but I personally wouldn't do it for less than a BILLION bucks!!
I am very sorry, I guess I lost it there. I'm not usually that steamed. Wow.
OK, let's all just chill out and relax. Like my Shrine's Priest says, "You can ALWAYS start over again."
Can anyone tell me why the reaction doesn't start until the two rods are connected? From the outside looking in, that is the one thing that makes this thing look totally different than an Aluminum, NaOH, Water heat producing reaction. That is pretty odd and cool.
By the way, I don't consider myself a little girl. I'm more of a cry baby. ;)
Hi Leeroy,
The connection is needed to begin the catalyzed oxidation/reduction process. In order for the reaction to occur, you need an electrical connection. The two metals can be just touching, or they can be electrically connected by using the copper wire. One metal acts as the sacrificial metal (oxidized). In many cases of Dr.Griffin's reactions it is zinc or aluminum. The other metal (tungsten/carbide or nickel for example) acts as the conductor that the hydrogen forms off of.
If you read the first several pages of the patent the process is generally laid out for you so you can understand the basics of this type of reaction.
Good luck, I hope your ideas and brainstorming can be useful to all of us in the future.
I dunno about the zinc regeneration thing, it seems that it would take more to regenerate than you could produce. :( Are you working on a new cell, ResinRat2?
Yes, cell is almost ready. I am switching to using a rubber stopper around both tungsten/carbide electrodes so I won't develop the continuous leaks that have been plaguing me all this time. It took a while to figure this one out. Plugging up the old holes, and drilling new ones is what I have been busy with.
My previous lab experiments showed it took less than a volt to regenerate the zinc. AirGen's own literature (airgencorp.com) shows it takes 0.95 volts to regenerate the zinc. The fuel cell should easily handle this voltage, but I have no amperage data. That will be determined in the next experiments.
All I can do is perform the experiments and see what results I get. That will show the truth of the matter. Until then, anything else is just optimistic or pessimistic speculation. I am optimistic because this reaction draws the energy from the environment and runs cold. That energy has to go somewhere;and I believe that is the excess energy that will be tapped. That will be our overunity.
Quote from: mramos on August 31, 2007, 01:54:04 PM
Quote from: rozzaa72 on August 30, 2007, 08:49:08 AM
THIS IS JUST A JOKE but could someone show me how to make a water power car so the bad guys can put a gun to my head and say TAKE THE 20 MILLION OR ELSE, I could do with 20 mill.
Bullets are a lot cheaper? Why would they pay you if they have a gun to your head.
Hey Dave, just checking in on progress. Hang in there.
Even easier is to have the cops raid your home, and then serve you with legal notice that ensures that if you continue your experiments that you're evicted from the property. I speak from experience.
~Dingus Mungus
ha ha cool.hey resinrat2 what ever you do, never stop this experiment, not even for the billion [well maybe] because this is too important. some of the things big oil do is pretty crooked. thanks rozza
OK roz,
I am so close to getting this going I can taste it. Here's the preliminary plan:
1) Get the reactor going with two fuel cells attached. The small one (1V , 300ma) will be used for the constant regeneration of one zinc electrode. The larger one (5W,2amps)will be used to operate a load. I'll start with the fan and add LEDs to full load.
2) Once the balance is found between running a load and regenerating the zinc electrode at the same time I will continue this for several weeks or months to see how it operates. This will either show overunity or not.
3) While this research is ongoing I will be looking into developing the built-in fuel cell from the YouTube link that shows how to build a NaOH fuel cell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cQg0Ur9Cko&NR=1
4) SCALE UP!!! I want that overunity prize. LOL!!!!
That's the preliminary plan.
@ResinRat2
Keep on pluggin' away at it.
Gut feeling tells me that if anyone besides Dr.G is going pull it off - you're the one that will!
Go Rat Go....
WOW I LOVE THIS,THIS IS FANTASTIC, I BELIEVE WHOLE HEARTEDLY THIS WILL WORK,BUT EVEN IF IT DOESNT, YOU DESERVE A GOLD MEDAL FOR ALL THE EFFORT RESINRAT2. HEY DINGUS MUNGUS, THAT IS A TERRIBLE STORY OF THE COPS RAIDING YOUR HOME,JUST BLOODY TERRIBLE. CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU WERE DOING THAT RAISED THEIR ATTENTION. ROZ
I thought this might be of interest, unabashedly stolen from http://www.silver-colloids.com under their reports section:
"Ionic Silver Solutions -
The vast majority of products labeled and sold as colloidal silver fall into this category due to the low degree of manufacturing complexity and resulting low cost of production. The silver content in these products consists of both silver ions and silver particles. Typically, 90% of the silver content is in the form of ionic silver and the remaining 10% of the silver content is in the form of silver particles. The silver ions are produced by electrolysis and may be described as ?dissolved silver?. Products produced by electrolysis are frequently described as "electro colloids". Because the majority of the silver content in these products is dissolved silver rather than metallic silver particles, it would be more technically accurate to describe these products as silver solutions.
Confusingly, ads for these products frequently claim that silver ions are small silver particles or describe the product as consisting of ionic silver particles. Silver ions are not the same as silver particles and the two terms are not interchangeable. Ionic silver is also referred to as monatomic silver and silver hydrosol by some producers who choose not to describe their products using the scientifically correct terminology. These are marketing terms used to hide the truth that what is being sold is an ionic silver solution. For more details read About Ionic Silver.
How To Tell If A Product Is Mostly Ionic Silver
Silver solutions are typically clear like water or have a slight yellow tint. These products are clear because silver that is dissolved in water looks just like sugar or salt that is dissolved in water; it has no visible appearance. The producers of ionic silver solutions will suggest that colloidal silver should look like clear water, but this is incorrect.
Companies that sell ionic silver claim that their product is "true colloidal silver" in an attempt to confuse the buyer. Do not be fooled. If the product is clear, then it is ionic silver, not a true silver colloid. Colloidal particles, when present in sufficient concentration, absorb visible light causing the colloid to exhibit an "apparent color". The apparent color is the complement of the absorbed wavelength. Silver ions do not absorb visible light and therefore appear as clear colorless liquids.
Many producers of ionic silver recommend that the product be stored only in glass containers. Some specify only amber or cobalt glass bottles because their products are photosensitive and deteriorate when exposed to light. True colloids do not have these issues.
How To Test for Ionic Silver
To figure out whether a solution is ionic silver, you only need add chloride ions. Common table salt, which is sodium chloride, will do. If silver ions are present the chloride ions will combine with the silver ions and create a white, cloudy appearance. To form a cloud that is visible requires that a sufficient concentration of silver ions be present, typically about 10 ppm or above. Simply place 1-2 ounces of ionic silver in a clear glass. Add a few grains of table salt. Observe whether, as the salt dissolves, a white cloud of silver chloride forms in the solution. If so, eventually, the entire solution will turn cloudy. If more salt is added, the white silver chloride will become denser until all the silver ions have combined with the available chlorine ions. If no silver ions are present then no white cloud will form. Here?s the rub: Some products will not make a white cloud of silver chloride when table salt is added because they contain no silver at all, or very little silver. Believe it or not, lab analysis has shown that some "silver" products actually contain no silver!
Techno-Babble, Misleading Language and Bogus Science
The term colloidal means particles not ions, but producers of ionic silver products will try to convince the buyer that their product is a silver colloid. The common thread in most advertisements selling ionic silver products (labeled as colloidal silver) is to claim that ions are silver particles, or they try to blur the distinction by using the terms interchangeably. Another common trick is to display images made from a Transmission Electron Microscope (TEM) that they claim shows the small particles found in their products. These images do not show the silver particles in their products."
------------------------------------------------
I have just finished walking all over the town I live in and none of the drug stores or health food stores could supply me with the colloids. So I strated looking around the internet and, perhaps luckily, this was the first page I happened upon. I've read all the posts in this topic, and have not seen quality of colloids discussed anywhere.
If we want true comparisons of systems and results, we will need to use the same quality of ingredients.
I can't even find crystal Draino for the sodium hydroxide. Too many people were using it to make meth and so most stores won't even stock it.
Davetech
I was able to locate Sodium Hydroxide at http://www.unitednuclear.com/chem.htm at a pretty reasonable price.
@ Dingus - re: reply # 113... the link http://www.silvermountainminerals.com/magnesium.html for the colloidal magnesium 404's on me. So do any other links to Silver Mountain Minerals which I obtained from a search engine. Perhaps they have gone belly up? Or didn't pay their site bill...
The link to purestcolloids / Mesosilver works fine and, according to silver-colloids.com, it is good stuff. Silver-Colloids analyzes silver colloid products and posts the results on their site. Mesosilver was rated one of the best. A bit pricey though... $25 USD for 250 ml.
So now I need to find an outlet for the colloidal magnesium.
I've got the zinc covered. I was welding and accidentally set the torch down with the tip pointed at a pile of late model pennies which just happened to be sitting there and, umm, well you know.... ::)
The zinc sheets below were splash cast onto a steel I-beam. Then I broke off about 3" of a hack saw blade, shaped it on a grinder to fit my hand held jig saw, and used it to cut the the sheets out of the casting (held in a vice). I was pleased with the result. The sheets are of surprisingly uniform thickness to have been made by such a crude method.
Hi Davetech
I am thinking as alternative use Hydroxide of Magnesium.
Finds easy in drugstore.
I don't imagine if had worked well.
regards
Here is a hacksaw blade touted as being tungsten carbide. From one of overunity.com's advertisers, no less.
http://www.toolking.com/milwaukee_48-43-0200.aspx
Would anyone be able to make an educated guess whether the entire blade is likely to be tungsten carbide, or just the teeth?
I would ask the company but my experience asking companies about their products usually has dismal results and I thought someone here might know.
Thanks.
Edit: Meh... I decided to go ahead and contact the company. Turns out they have a very nice online-chat product adviser, but my question was not in her book. So she referred me to a 1-800 number to their tech dept and after a few minutes of consulting they told me just the teeth are tungsten carbide treated.
Drat.
Double Drat even!
??? What's up with Resin Rat - no posting since 1st September - also Dingus Mungus - no posting since 31st August. I hope you two haven't been busted by BIG BROTHER, please let us know you're still around !
Hi RW,
I share your apprehension. For days I have been expecting something new from RR2 or Dingus. Resin Rat 2, If you can hear this, tap 3 times.
@brnbrade I started wondering if the bottle of Milk of Magnesia on top of my refrigerator might not be a colloidal mixture of magnesium. I examined the back label and, what do you know... there is your magnesium hydroxide. You were way ahead of me. But the magnesium is bound up with hydrogen, so I don't know if it would be available as a catalyst. It also has an equal amount of aluminum hydroxide, and I have no idea how that would get along with the rest of the items in the cell. Chemistry is /not/ my strong point.
I am leery of trying it. I could arrange to be far from the cell while experimenting so I would not get blown over my house, but poisonous gases can be invisible and odorless.
Thoughts anyone? Tap 3 times RR2.
I have not had anything of interest to post. I have had difficulty drilling the holes in the reactor. I am sure most people are not interested in my personal problems but I tried drilling two 5/8" holes in the plexiglass side of the reactor. I started with small pilot holes, no problem, but when I went up to 1/4" I started to get chipping of the plastic. This started to get me concerned. I went up to 1/2" and it really started to chip on the surface. It then started to catch onto the sides of the hole and yank the reactor from my grasp. This flung the reactor on the floor.
I then talked to someone who designs plexiglass objects here in Illinois and he said they use special type bits to drill into plexiglass. Apparently they have a different cutting angle on them. He also said that he uses soap to lubricate the drill bit as it cuts. So I ordered the drill bit I need last week and it still has not come in yet. So again, another problem and another difficulty to overcome. As soon as the 5/8" drill bit comes in I will drill out the holes, insert the rubber stoppers with the electrodes in them, refill and reseal the reactor. Then that should solve my leak problem.
This has been a difficult road, but I am overcoming problems as they pop up. Some of them have been tricky.
Please have patience with me. I won't be posting if there is nothing relevant to post.
Thanks for your interest.
@RR2 Very good to hear from you.
I wish you had a Dremel tool. It is a little hand-held drill, better ones have variable speed, and goes up to something like 15,000 rpm, I think. I have owned and used them since my r/c flying days back in the 70's. They can be found on eBay.
The Dremel is great for fabricating with plastics. If you use the little carbide treated milling bit, you can run the speed up and melt your plastic how ever you want it, using very little pressure. The little bit of melted plastic that gets left on the edges is easily removed after it cools, with a fingernail.
There are many other attachments available for the Dremel, but perhaps the most useful are the little "zizz-wheel" cutoff blades. They will cut right through most metals, even SS bolts. Safety goggles are a must, because the thin blades are prone to break if they hang up, but they are dirt cheap, so no biggie there.
If you have a cheap soldering iron, you might try melting the holes with it.
I wish we lived closer together. I'd be glad to do your fabrication work.
I do appreciate the offer Davetech, I would take you up on it.
BOY, that is one ugly dawg you have for your avatar. I know I've seen it somewhere before. Wow, UUUGGGLLLYYY!!
To RR2 about plexi glass... You should drill plexi glass with at least 5000RPM drill, otherwise it gets problematic....
sebaw
Quote from: sebaw on September 11, 2007, 06:19:46 PM
To RR2 about plexi glass... You should drill plexi glass with at least 5000RPM drill, otherwise it gets problematic....
sebaw
Thanks sebaw, I will make sure I do this.
Update:
;D Just finished moving in to my new place. I'm currently building a very large Newman window motor from scratch. Finished the armature and I'm now prepping for winding the stators... Also there will be some further hydrogen experiments coming soon. I'm still unpacking all the boxes, and I will need to buy a chem resistant table with lips before setting up my chem lab indoors. Glad to know someones keeping an eye on things though.
~Dingus Mungus
AAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!
Home :D Sweet 8) Home ;)
Now THAT'S got to be a relief.
Happy for you Chris!!!
Quote from: ResinRat2 on September 11, 2007, 11:22:59 AM
I tried drilling two 5/8" holes in the plexiglass side of the reactor. I started with small pilot holes, no problem, but when I went up to 1/4" I started to get chipping of the plastic..
What about a soldering iron type solution? Could you make a
small hole, and then use a hot wire cutter? Google for
"reamer" and "broach"
Paul.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on September 11, 2007, 10:09:22 PM
AAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!
Home :D Sweet 8) Home ;)
Now THAT'S got to be a relief.
Happy for you Chris!!!
Thanks! I'm quite excited to get back to work on this concept.
Quote from: Paul-R on September 12, 2007, 10:43:34 AM
Quote from: ResinRat2 on September 11, 2007, 11:22:59 AM
I tried drilling two 5/8" holes in the plexiglass side of the reactor. I started with small pilot holes, no problem, but when I went up to 1/4" I started to get chipping of the plastic..
What about a soldering iron type solution? Could you make a
small hole, and then use a hot wire cutter? Google for
"reamer" and "broach"
Paul.
The drill bit worked out fine. 5/8" diameter and a slow rpm rate shaved out the holes just as planned. This drill bit has edges like a razor. I wanted to try out the slow rpm before trying a high rpm, just to avoid melting the acrylic. Apparently, in this case, it was the right choice.
I appreciate everyone's previous suggestions.
Hopefully, all leaks are now repaired. I will see how the rubber stoppers work out. I want to get this puppy going again.
I'm looking all over the net and I can find anyone selling pure Mg colloidal solution.
A few companies in Australia are selling MgCl2 "colloidal" solution, but thats no good.
I'm trying to find my invoice for the colloids and I'll contact the paypal account.
Resin does your Mg supplier still exist?
Hey Resin, read this whole forum, took many hours, really didn't get alot of the chem + electronics but understand what your doing, you are one dogged person.You must have some Edison blood in you.Point I have is that this is important stuff, I have read up alot on hydrogen manufacture. I don't know what to believe.Many people have claims, but don't back them up, or they try but they seem half as*ed.Maybe there scared or just untrue.Your claims are true and proven with video.I hope your cell can last for a long while with consistent outputs.Once that everything is sorted, maybe you could have plans and a materials list that would be easily understood for the layman and this could be unleashed like wildfire on the net.All our dreams of a hydrogen futur could be realised.Fossil fuels are obselete (actually have been for a long time) just to easy to pull up to a pump and get served.As humans to have parked some astronauts on the moon in the sixties (with the technologies of then) and where we stand today with our energy problems and extreme pollution we should be ashamed, but with the internet we should all wake up and do something about it.Personally I believe some millionaire should have set you up in a lab and given you unlimited funds.(Maybe not what you wanted).Anyhow I will rant some more another time (enjoy your rants).I hope to see some posts on updates on your progress.
anti-e
p.s props to you Dingus as well
Hi ResinRat2 (and Dingus),
I?ve been researching Solar PV (PhotoVoltaics) ) as well as HHO for the last 6 weeks when I came across the posting of Stephan?s about Dr. Linnard Griffin?s patent. So as time would permit I have been reading your thread, following your experiments, as well as some others on HHO.
Through your research, exploration of his patents and experiments I have been convinced of the GREAT PROMISS that this technology holds.
Currently I?m ramping up to begin to follow (duplicate) your experiments with the goal of moving from using Hydroxy HHO to H1 gas. I see (Linnard Griffin) method of generating Hydrogen as the best means for to get there.
In the old days I filled up many a note book in order to keep straight what I?ve researched as well as where I was going. However now I?m putting it all on the web.
(www. SolarSupplyCo.Com . For me the most exciting part of the site is the Other Stuff Hydrogen etc. section)
I'm hoping that I can send to you, from time to time, my plans for review and comment, as your help will be invaluable to me.
Please keep up the GOOD WORK and know that you are making a BIG difference to all who read and follow your work!
God Bless,
Walterj (Mick) McNichols
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on September 21, 2007, 06:53:24 AM
I'm looking all over the net and I can find anyone selling pure Mg colloidal solution.
A few companies in Australia are selling MgCl2 "colloidal" solution, but thats no good.
I'm trying to find my invoice for the colloids and I'll contact the paypal account.
Resin does your Mg supplier still exist?
Ok I got through to my colloid supplier! Somone was asking for a supplier earlier...
Contact Silver Moutain Minerals @ www.SilverMTNMinerals.com or call direct and talk to scott at 801-604-4128.
~Dingus Mungus
P.S. Welcome to the forums WalterJ!
Great! Thanks, Dingus. The colliodal magnesium has been the hold up for me. Couldn't find it anywhere.
On Silver Mountain's site, click on "Our Products" and the magnesium is down toward the bottom.
Hi Everyone,
My leaks were fixed around the tungsten electrodes using the rubber stoppers, but the setup I had around the zinc electrodes started to leak after about an hour of running the reactor. I had copper wires run through the side of the reactor to reach the zinc electrodes in their center, but the copper must have the same problem of shrinkage when the reactor runs for a while. It just pulls away from the plexiglass and creates a gap=leak.
I am drlling out the zinc electrodes and setting them up the same way so they have a rubber stopper around them as well. I guess I should have designed the reactor this way to begin with, but at the time I thought I was making the right decision based off what I knew. Now I know better. Another problem, another solution, the endless tedium of research. I THINK I've got it solved now.
Walter, I know what you mean. You should see my notebook on this project. I think I will post a few snapshots of the drawings and pages in the future. It's interesting to look at the evolution of the project.
Thanks everyone for your interest and kind words.
Hi Guyââ,¬â,,¢s,
Thanks Dingus and ResinRat2 for welcoming me. Iââ,¬â,,¢m getting quite a bit psyched anticipating the next steps both of you will be taking in your trek. As well as my next steps I have to take in creating a proper reactor design.
One question I have is that Iââ,¬â,,¢m hopeful that I can make a cell that I can capture Hydrogen with out Oxygen. Iââ,¬â,,¢m wondering what your take is on this.
When I read the experiment notes of yours, when the electrodes (anode and cathode) are connected with out any electricity you get only Hydrogen. So with the ââ,¬ËœLââ,¬â,,¢ shape reactor that Dr. Griffin shows on his original YouTube Video, Iââ,¬â,,¢m assuming the Hydrogen is generated in the larger side and, if I capture the gas there I would get (pure?) Hydrogen. Am I right in my assessment so far?
Now (if Iââ,¬â,,¢m right) then the smaller chamber will yield the Oxygen, which I can (or not) utilize for some other process.
Some question I have for you guyââ,¬â,,¢s are what kind of (Non Gas) connection do you think works best between the two chambers? Could a simple electrical (maybe solid (SS 314) electrode)) connection suffice or is there need for the actual electrolyte in each chamber to connect (a liquid connection)?
Thatââ,¬â,,¢s all I have for now. Hope I at least have some of this right and maybe you can see where Iââ,¬â,,¢m going (or not!)
Looking forward to your critique, corrections and responses.
Blessings,
Mick
Walter, you wrote:
"When I read the experiment notes of yours, when the electrodes (anode and cathode) are connected with out any electricity you get only Hydrogen. So with the ?L? shape reactor that Dr. Griffin shows on his original YouTube Video, I?m assuming the Hydrogen is generated in the larger side and, if I capture the gas there I would get (pure?) Hydrogen. Am I right in my assessment so far? Yes, you are correct. The gas is pure hydrogen on that side.
Now (if I?m right) then the smaller chamber will yield the Oxygen, which I can (or not) utilize for some other process.This is also correct. Most of the oxygen will be captured as oxide of the sacrificial metal (zinc), this can be liberated with a reverse current that will reduce the zinc oxide back into zinc.
Some question I have for you guy?s are what kind of (Non Gas) connection do you think works best between the two chambers? Could a simple electrical (maybe solid (SS 314) electrode)) connection suffice or is there need for the actual electrolyte in each chamber to connect (a liquid connection)?You need the electrolyte connection, this is the catalyst that allows the reaction to occur spontaneously.
Good luck Walter. I appreciate your effort and look forward to your observations, ideas, and results. Thanks very much.
New question I have to resolve is Hydrogen still produced at the Negative electrode (tungsten/carbide) and Oxygen at Positive (Zinc) plate?
In other words is the polarity the same as normal electrolysis? I'm thinking of the electricity generated by the reaction is it the same polarity as normal electrolysis? I'm assuming so, but need to verify.
Walterj
Hi Walter,
When the electrodes are connected with a copper wire the reaction begins spontaneously; the hydrogen comes off the tungsten/carbide(-) and whatever oxygen is produced comes off the zinc(+). Same polarity as regular electrolysis.
Good luck,
Dave (RR2)
Resin,
With the connection between chambers made by electrolyte, I understand why you made those angled holes between chambers. However it seemed that you were worried about contamination of Gases. Ok I understand that and I was/am worried about that.
I?m thinking of building something that looks like the ?L? shaped one, mainly because I?m not to good with miniature stuff! I know we/I haven?t actually seen it, and the small reactor looks different, but this electrolyte connection without allowing gas to contaminate the other side looks kind of important to me and I?m interested in exploring your thoughts on this subject. I know from your posts at the time of construction you were not very happy with how the angled hole thing worked out.
Do you think a more conventional opposing baffle might do the job if all your worried about is gas contamination while still giving maximum electrolyte contact to the chambers?
From the picture on the video it doesn?t look like he (Dr. Griffin) has anything very complicated, if in-fact anything at all in that demonstration. After all he didn?t really show anything except making 70 liters of Hydrogen (per minute) and that with (he said) Iron ? elemental Iron if I?m not mistaken. What was that all about do you think?
Regards,
Walterj
Resin,
With the connection between chambers made by electrolyte, I understand why you made those angled holes between chambers. However it seemed that you were worried about contamination of Gases. Ok I understand that and I was/am worried about that. The reason I was worried about contamination was because I did not want any oxygen gas mixing with the hydrogen gas. The hydrogen gas is going into a fuel cell and producing electricity. If oxygen gets into the hydrogen side of the fuel cell it can interfere with the production of electrical current. The way I want my reactor to work there will be both hydrogen and oxygen gases coming off at the same time. That is why I needed to keep them from mixing.
I?m thinking of building something that looks like the ?L? shaped one, mainly because I?m not to good with miniature stuff! I know we/I haven?t actually seen it, and the small reactor looks different, but this electrolyte connection without allowing gas to contaminate the other side looks kind of important to me and I?m interested in exploring your thoughts on this subject. I know from your posts at the time of construction you were not very happy with how the angled hole thing worked out. What I was disappointed in was that the angle of my holes are not quite steep enough to completely stop the mixing. This I will correct in the future. Again, this is because I am putting the gas through a fuel cell to produce electricity.
Do you think a more conventional opposing baffle might do the job if all your worried about is gas contamination while still giving maximum electrolyte contact to the chambers? Draw me sketch of what you are thinking of. I am open to any ideas right now.
From the picture on the video it doesn?t look like he (Dr. Griffin) has anything very complicated, if in-fact anything at all in that demonstration. After all he didn?t really show anything except making 70 liters of Hydrogen (per minute) and that with (he said) Iron ? elemental Iron if I?m not mistaken. What was that all about do you think? His reactor was set up to just produce hydrogen, and that?s all. He was not interested in regeneration of the zinc electrode because all he was doing was running a small go-kart engine off of it. Any oxygen that was produced would just go into zinc oxide or into the engine and burn. No fuel cell involved there. My guess is he was using one of the experiments that use an acid-iron reaction. That?s why he mentioned elemental iron. I am using experiment #13 which uses tungsten/carbide-zinc-sodium hydroxide. His reaction is (as he mentioned) higher catalyst (concentration) levels. So it was out of control for him.
What I am doing differently is I am going to use two fuel cells. One will feed current back into the reactor to regenerate the zinc and produce oxygen at the same time that hydrogen is being produced. The other fuel cell will power some device (fan, etc.) That is why mine is not the same as his.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on September 27, 2007, 12:47:07 PM
Resin,
With the connection between chambers made by electrolyte, I understand why you made those angled holes between chambers. However it seemed that you were worried about contamination of Gases. Ok I understand that and I was/am worried about that. The reason I was worried about contamination was because I did not want any oxygen gas mixing with the hydrogen gas. The hydrogen gas is going into a fuel cell and producing electricity. If oxygen gets into the hydrogen side of the fuel cell it can interfere with the production of electrical current. The way I want my reactor to work there will be both hydrogen and oxygen gases coming off at the same time. That is why I needed to keep them from mixing.
Iââ,¬â,,¢m thinking of building something that looks like the ââ,¬ËœLââ,¬â,,¢ shaped one, mainly because Iââ,¬â,,¢m not to good with miniature stuff! I know we/I havenââ,¬â,,¢t actually seen it, and the small reactor looks different, but this electrolyte connection without allowing gas to contaminate the other side looks kind of important to me and Iââ,¬â,,¢m interested in exploring your thoughts on this subject. I know from your posts at the time of construction you were not very happy with how the angled hole thing worked out. What I was disappointed in was that the angle of my holes are not quite steep enough to completely stop the mixing. This I will correct in the future. Again, this is because I am putting the gas through a fuel cell to produce electricity.
Do you think a more conventional opposing baffle might do the job if all your worried about is gas contamination while still giving maximum electrolyte contact to the chambers? Draw me sketch of what you are thinking of. I am open to any ideas right now.
From the picture on the video it doesnââ,¬â,,¢t look like he (Dr. Griffin) has anything very complicated, if in-fact anything at all in that demonstration. After all he didnââ,¬â,,¢t really show anything except making 70 liters of Hydrogen (per minute) and that with (he said) Iron ? elemental Iron if Iââ,¬â,,¢m not mistaken. What was that all about do you think? His reactor was set up to just produce hydrogen, and thatââ,¬â,,¢s all. He was not interested in regeneration of the zinc electrode because all he was doing was running a small go-kart engine off of it. Any oxygen that was produced would just go into zinc oxide or into the engine and burn. No fuel cell involved there. My guess is he was using one of the experiments that use an acid-iron reaction. Thatââ,¬â,,¢s why he mentioned elemental iron. I am using experiment #13 which uses tungsten/carbide-zinc-sodium hydroxide. His reaction is (as he mentioned) higher catalyst (concentration) levels. So it was out of control for him.
What I am doing differently is I am going to use two fuel cells. One will feed current back into the reactor to regenerate the zinc and produce oxygen at the same time that hydrogen is being produced. The other fuel cell will power some device (fan, etc.) That is why mine is not the same as his.
Well I'm also I'm thinking of is pure Hydrogen gas hence the interest on separation of Gases.
However unlike you I have 2 uses for the gas. one is for a fuel cell too. The other is to fuel the ICE that powers my 6KW Colman generator.
I plan to start with pure Hydrogen and then I can combine Oxygen when/where needed.
I'll be glad to get something sketched to show you what I have in mind.
My original plan is starting some basic HHO experiments on my ICE with a cell I'm expecting to be delivered tomorrow (from Paul Zigouras) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JosdqBMg_mk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JosdqBMg_mk) which is designed to power a much larger engine than I have. So I will be able to perfect the ICE running on HHO.
With ICE running smoothly I'm then going to tackle the new reactor and generation of Hydrogen without Oxygen. Baby steps as it were.
Thanks so much for your help!
Walterj
Walter wrote:
>However unlike you I have 2 uses for the gas. one is for a fuel cell too.
>The other is to fuel the ICE that powers my 6KW Colman generator.
I am currently converting my 2KW generator to run on hydrogen.
First i start with an Hydrogen bottle (150psi) to be able to run the
engine and get that part up and running smoth. I would not like
to have two problems at once. The 150 psi from the bottle are
reduced by a control valve to 5psi on which the engine runs.
Having that part of the system ready and running i am able to measure
the consumed volume (liter of gas) very exactly.
Afterwards i am able to design / scale up my reactor in such a manner that
it will produce at LEAST the same volume at 5 psi, than my engine consumes
at 2KW load (do not use idle or no load on generator). My reactor has to be
designed for a maximum presseure of 10psi then.
Please consider to separate the reactor build process from the generator adaption!
That will make life much more easier.
just my two cents...
bye, bitbo
Hi again !
I made some calculations regarding the amount of gas my 2KW generator
may need to run a 0.2 KW load:
The generator consumes 0.350 liter Gas per hour at 0.2 KW load, which is an energy of apprx. 12 MJ
(Gas has apprx. 43 MJ per liter - see www.Wikipedia.com)
1KG Hydrogen has 120 MJ
12MJ results in 0.1 Kg Hydrogen.
further have 1000 liter (one m?) Hydrogen 10 MJ of energy
That means i need 1200 liter (at atmospheric pressure) of hydrogen to run my generator at 200 watt load.
That means i need 20 liter hydrogen per minute for 200 watts
THAT ARE ARE LOT OF BUBBLES !!!
I am sure we can get them in reactor V4, but right now i am building reactor V0.90 - so please do not expect to hear my success stories next week...
Bye, bitbo
bitbo, how long have you been working on the generator part?
bitbo,
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear before. I actually have 3 parts to my project.
Part 1 is to get my 6KW ICE generator to run on HHO from my cell I've ordered from Paul Zigoursa.
Zigouras's cells produce copious amounts of gas and this one is rated at somthing like 60 liters/per minute.
Part 2 is to build the Griffin Reactor in a 'L' shape as in his old Video and a Fuel cell to it.
Part 3 is to then also add replicate the Part 1 with the new reactor powering the genset.
I agree it's ambitious but that's my mid term goal.
Walterj
Hello All, have just staggered thru this thread and read the patent, went back to page one and saw the date, October 2005, youve gotta be kidding. RR2 your tenacity is staggering with the little help you have received and l commend you and hope your goal is successful. From what l have read and cos l want to produce enough gas on demand to power a small truck and or private power plant which of his methods would you suggest l play with, maybe something with more vigerous output with loss of consumables or do you think #13 with larger quatities would do the job, tho l do have 5lt of both kinds of acid, thanks
Peter
Any demonstration videos that Dr.Griffin has posted always use what he terms an "acid-iron" reaction. That must mean this probably gives the best output because I believe anything he puts effort into building will most certainly be made with his best output design. It must also operate at room temperature. Since several of the experiments run at temperatures above room temp, and not all use iron, I would guess any that use iron pellets or oxidized iron would be close to his best output. Unfortunately, these all also use colloidal lead, which scares me very much. Colloidal minerals absorb in you body readily, and the idea of getting colloidal lead on my skin, or breathing the vapors also has me worried, so I would opt for using the NaOH (sodium hydroxide) experiments. Try potassium hydroxide in place of sodium hydroxide as well.. That's why I chose experiment 13. It seemed the safest to use, and if your out put is not that great, then just build a larger unit until you get the output you need. I also don't believe his best output design would be in the patent anyway. You never reveal any details of best designs in patents. It just doesn't happen.
I know this seems a copout answer, but until I get the assembled reactor operating long term I don't much care about having a "super" gas output. I want overunity, the output can be fixed later.
As far as my progress is going. I have all the holes drilled, and the stopper holes are being slowly drilled as well. I don't want to overshoot the needed size and waste materials. I am sorry if anyone is frustrated by my progress, but I am working on this as a hobby, not a job. I am going as fast as I am able and progress is being made. Pretty soon I'll be back in business.
Thanks for your interest.
RESINRAT:,HOW MUCH HYDROGEN DO YOU NEED TO RUN A CAR AND WHAT IS YOUR BEST OUTPUT AND IS IT POSSIBLE TO UPSIZE TO MEET THIS, ROZ
Hi ROZ!
Please read my calculations three post prior to this !
- You need apprx. 20 Liter hydrogen per minute for 0.2 KW
- You need apprx. 200 Liter hydrogen per minute for 2 KW
- You need apprx. 2000 Liter hydrogen per minute for 20 KW
You also need 20 KW to cruise on the highway at 50-60 mph
(depending on the vehicle)
To accelerate fast you may need 20.000 liter hydrogen per minute for 200 KW
(yes, hydrogen is not very good in "energy per volume")
Bye, bitbo
Hi All !
I just made a backward calculation which looks a little bit better for us:
When running an 6 liter engine at 3000 rpm full throttle it consumes apprx. 18000 liter air.
Hydrogen burns best at an optimum air/hydrogen ratio 2/1 (wikipedia)
Let us assume 30% hydrogen is fine (a little bit lean), then we consume
8.000 liter hydrogen and 10.000 liter air in that engine at 3000 rpm per minute.
That engine produces also apprx. 200 KW in that case.
So my previous calculation (20.000) is obviously 2.5 times to high or my
generator (on which the calculation is based on runs a very rich
gas mixture or is not very efficient).
Conclusion:
- You will need appx. 10.000 liter hydogen per minute to accelerate (220 KW)
- You will need appx. 1.000 liter hydogen per minute to cruise on the highway (22KW)
Hope that helps
bye bitbo
Hi Bitbo,
I really don't know what hydrogen output is needed to run a car, to me this seems like a very inefficient method to use the hydrogen. The fuel cell idea, though expensive right now, seems a better way to go. So that means you would be driving an electric car. (I'll take the Tesla electric sportscar please, lol -- teslamotors.com ). Such a sacrifice.
My vision is a Linnard Griffin hydrogen reactor that charges your batteries through a fuel cell. That way you just plug it into the reactor and it would trickle charge your batteries overnight. The next day you've got over 200 miles of range for your fancy electric sports car. Who needs an ICE --- lol.
well written, when you think of it, we dont need an internal combustion engine, when electric has all the same benefits.roz
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on September 21, 2007, 06:53:24 AM
I'm looking all over the net and I can find anyone selling pure Mg colloidal solution.
A few companies in Australia are selling MgCl2 "colloidal" solution, but thats no good.
I'm trying to find my invoice for the colloids and I'll contact the paypal account.
Resin does your Mg supplier still exist?
Sorry Chris, I missed this one. --- www.wateroz.com
Hi Resin !
Quote from: ResinRat2 on October 02, 2007, 09:33:37 AM
I really don't know what hydrogen output is needed to run a car, to me this seems like a very inefficient method to use the hydrogen.
I agree totally, but it was just a thought initiated by Walter as he mentioned his 6KW unit.
As i wrote already i am far away from adapting it to my engine, i am just seeking for FE as you do !
My maths showed me clearly that i need a huge volume for 200 Watts output. The question is, if these
200 Watt are needed to regenerate the zinc (or iron for Dr Linnards version) , or if we just need 100 Watt
and have 100 Watt for free.
(using fuel cells we will get out apprx. 400 Watt (engine 20% eff., fuel cell 80% eff.))
We will see - my reactor will be ready at christmas as i also have a full time job and family tasks with higher priority.....
Bye,
bitbo
-Germany-
While I'm going to initiate an effort to get my 6KW gen set running on Hydrogen, it's only because I have it sitting around and except for testing I've only have 6 hours on it. So it's absolutely brand new and doesn't cost me a cent.
But please don't think for one minute that I'm a proponent of using Hydrogen to power ICE's over fuel cells, because I'm not. I'm just being a good Stewart of using what I have.
Until Fuel cell's become more affordable I'm thinking the economics of a somewhat larger power requirements might be better accomplished retro-fitting fossil fuel technology with Hydrogen (HOD) on Demand technology.
I remember when I was a kid almost all heating was done with coal, then conversion burners from Roberts Gorden and others made it possible to still use the dinosaurs until newer high efficiency furnaces (99%) came into the market. These high efficiency furnaces literately paid for them selfs in only a couple of years through cost of energy savings. And I can see the same thing working here. Some, the early adopters will convert existing technology (at little cost but lots of headaches and risk) as they can /or as it makes economic sense while some wait until the technology is perfected and buy their Hydrogen Vehicle for $50,000.
Blessings,
Walterj
Quote from: walterj7 on October 03, 2007, 04:57:33 PM
Until Fuel cell's become more affordable I'm thinking the economics of a somewhat larger power requirements might be better accomplished retro-fitting fossil fuel technology with Hydrogen (HOD) on Demand technology.
I agree with you 100%. Remember the first caluculators? They didn't do much, but they cost quite a bit. Now that kind of computing power is obsolete. You have to give it away.
On Dr Griffin's company (AirGen) website they sell a 5Kw generator that runs off of hydrogen and produces electricity through a fuel cell.:
http://www.airgencorp.com/product.html#ag20_generator
It only requires 75 Liters of hydrogen per minute to operate. Now that sounds like something he could easily power with one of his microwave size reactors.
Now nobody is going to tell me it's not possible!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for your interest.
AirGen will develop products based on their storage/hydrogen generation capacity. Initially, AGC has determined three sizes ? 20 Kg., 4 Kg. and 1 gram ? will meet most of the requirements in the target markets. The products will be modular in design; thus, several of the 20 Kg. systems can easily be integrated for customers requiring larger amounts of hydrogen.
AG20 Generator
The AG20 generators will be designed to provide a ready supply of 20 Kg. of hydrogen gas. This is sufficient to operate a 5kW fuel cell (75 standard liters per minute flow rate) for a period of 48 continuous hours. Target applications include DC backup power for wireless telecom stations.
I would love to get one of these. How???
Guess I didn't read very well. They are being DEVELOPED. Which means, not available yet.
Sorry for the misread.
Hi Everyone,
I had my reactor running for the last 24 hours. Using the rubber stoppers around the electrodes works very well, no leaks formed after the temperature dropped so this is the way I will do it from now on.
I was running the fan off the larger fuel cell, and the second fuel cell I had set up to regenerate one of the zinc electrodes at the same time the other zinc electrode was used in the hydrogen generation. This looks to work as zinc was regenerating, but the voltage was low on the regeneration fuel cell; 142mV. Very small, but the zinc looked to be regenerating.
I see a flaw in my reactor design though, as the gas pressure on either side of the reactor increased, the liquid levels also varied. I left it running in the morning, and after I got back home from work I found that the electrolyte had overflowed into the fuel cells as the pressure on the oxygen side had increased too much. I had tried to control the liquid levels by immersing the oxygen tube into a glass of water and varying its depth. This worked for a while, but there are too many variables changing (pressure, density, atmospheric pressure) to keep the liquid levels constant in this design. I see why having gas openings on both sides of the reactor is difficult to use. I just can't maintain constant liquid levels.
I am redesigning the reactor to compensate for this; but at least the leaking around the electrodes is fixed.
Thank you for your interest.
Hey Resin,
I'm a little concerned about your report about the dissimilar pressure situation you reported from prolonged reactor operation.
I'm assuming that there must be some reason your NOT just venting the Oxygen to atmosphere?
Maybe just on general principals?
But I do see, what I would call, 'operational problems' with having two sealed reactions operating simultaneously.
Might be that the unusual reactor design Dr.Griffin showed in his first video could have helped in those issues by giving the Oxygen side a proportionally smaller surface area for the (oxygen) pressure to act upon and thus might kind of balance out the effect of the larger molecule? Just a thought.
Walterj
Hi Walterj and everyone,
WHOOOHOOO! I got it to work the way I wanted it to.(mostly).
By switching the fuel cells so that the low voltage one has the hydrogen going through it first (for regeneration of the one zinc electrode) I am able to get full voltage off the small fuel cell (0.9 volts) which is the maximum for the small one and should be enough for regeneration, and sure enough, I saw the oxygen bubbles coming off the electrode and the zinc re-plating. The larger fuel cell was next in line for the hydrogen and after a short time it started to turn the small fan, then turned faster, then went at a good constant clip. So this setup has proved my hypothesis; that using two fuel cells, two zinc electrodes, and two tungsten carbide electrode connections to regenerate one zinc electrode while the other zinc electrode is being used to produce hydrogen does work. This is then a self-powering, self-regenerating unit; no fancy electronics, no batteries, and no complicated setup.
Only one problem is left to overcome, and that is a way to control the pressure between the two chambers so the electrolyte liquid level stays constant. Then I can let it run and run and run on its own without having to keep an eye on it so it doesn't overflow into the fuel cells.
So I may still need to redesign the reactor, but my mind is brainstorming and I may be able to think of a way to solve that problem as well and still use this present reactor design.
Man, I am so close to doing the long term testing, but right now I've got to get to bed. I need to get up for work in 4 hours.
Thanks for your interest and patience.
Resin,
What a great milestone you have just accomplished!
Your right people have spent literally thousands of hours in hundred (or thousands) of experiments involving electronics (some very advanced and unbelievably complicated) magnets, pulsing, frequency generation and modulation, plasma generation as well as every permutation that can be thought of just to approach where you are today!
As an old Engineer I learned the hard way there is always more than one to accomplish any objective.
this approach to a problem involves breaking down the goal into a series of tasks and develop a series of solutions. While this approach works with known technology pretty well it Many times overlooks the simplest and most elegant solutions. You have really made a great contribution to all of us by 'Thinking Out of the Box' and taking a approach no one has ever taken!
My hat is off to you! Thank you for your clear thinking and dodged persistence. The goal is well in sight and you have made a major contribution to reaching it!
Please KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK and know that you are appreciated!
Sincerely,
Walterj
Walterj,
Thanks for the kind words, but it's not there yet. I could use your ideas as well as anyone else who is interested. I will be posting a drawing soon of my setup so everyone could see where the problem is with the pressure differences and electrolyte overflow. I will need any ideas anyone has for a solution. Especially Engineer ideas.
Thanks to all.
Dave hi,
Congratulations on another milestone! I hope you can put a a drawing soon so we can help you search for the right solution to the overflow problem.
In case we want to use the gasses for say, burning, we don't have the overflow problem right? They just can be mixed then right?
regards,
Robert
Quote from: mramos on October 11, 2007, 10:52:52 AM
Dave,
Great job. Sounds like you are really getting close. I will not take the fancy electronics personally :)
Let me know when I can buy one.. The fan motor, was it a small DC fan? Did you notice the voltage or current?
Mike
Mike, the fan is a small DC motor fan that I bought with the fuel cell. There is NO information on the unit what draw it has. I'll throw a meter in the circuit sometime tonight if I get a chance and see what kind of mA reading it gives.
Yeah, you ARE the fancy electronics guy.
Once this puppy is running it'll still need a circuit to charge a 6 or 12 volt battery for future experiments. I think THAT would be a good fancy electronics project for a fancy electronics guy, don't you think? It would be neat to charge the 6 volt battery on the next door neighbor's DC scooter and install the reactor on it and have a perpetual running scooter that runs on water.
Just the kind of challange you could handle, eh? LOL!!
Thanks!!
Quote from: dutchy1966 on October 11, 2007, 11:19:59 AM
In case we want to use the gasses for say, burning, we don't have the overflow problem right? They just can be mixed then right?
regards,
Robert
Well, the fuel cell is needed for the regeneration, so the gases would still need to be separated for that. So I guess the answer to your question is no. Sorry Robert.
Hi Everyone,
Attached is a drawing of the side view of my setup. The T electrodes are tungsten/carbide and produce the hydrogen that flows into two fuel cell. The Z electrodes are the zinc. One T-Z connection goes through a fuel cell that gives a reverse current and regenerates the zinc electrode and produces the oxygen. The other T-Z connection is just connected with a copper wire connection and spontaneously produces the hydrogen. The hydrogen gas (H) flows into the fuel cells, the oxygen gas (O) I have flowing into a container of water. By raising the water container up and down I can vary the back pressure.
If I don't have enough back pressure then the hydrogen gas pushes the electrolyte liquid up through the oxygen side of the gas opening and overflows into the water container. If I have too much back pressure then the electrolyte liquid is pushed up through the hydrogen tube into the fuel cells. Notice at the center of the reactor that the two chambers are joined by a connection that allows the electrolyte to flow between the chambers. This connection is why the two chambers alter each others liquid level. I need this connection in order for the electrolyte to flow between the two chambers.
I can raise or lower the water container and get a back pressure equilibrium, but it alway changes eventually and causes an overflow.
If anyone has any ideas how this can be altered to keep a steady backpressure then please let me know. I appreciate the help.
Let me know if any clarifications or extra details are needed.
Thanks in advance for everyone's help.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on October 11, 2007, 03:14:23 PM
If anyone has any ideas how this can be altered to keep a steady backpressure then please let me know. I appreciate the help.
floates and needle valves and/or pressure sensors.
- If one float get lower than the other, the gaz flow of the other compartment must be closed to build pressure in it.
- Pressure sensor(s) could stop production if pressure in hydrogen compartment get too high.
A float needle valve could be use for water "auto feed" too.
Whatever flow control there is needs to be simply mechanical, with no electrical requirements. It would be better if the reactor itself could be modified to correct this problem. Let's all think simple. Nothing complicated or elaborate.
Mike, I have some numbers. The fan itself draws 1.4V at 33mA while it is running. The zinc regeneration circuit shows 0.813V at only 3.4mA with the Volt meter in the circuit. Yes that's 3.4mA. Not much power required to regenerate the zinc in this system.
So does that mean my overunity is the fan load? I think I will go out to Radio Shack, or someplace else and buy some small loads for this unit. Just to max out the load and see what this unit can do.
Resin,
Solution might be as simple as a PRV (Pressure relief valve) on the offending side (Oxygen) set to some low pressure like under max pressure maybe in the WC inches (Cater Column range) you could try some settings of max pressure and zero in on something pretty low that would allow extended running time.
Walterj
Hi Walterj,
A PRV? Do you have a link for an example? It needs to be adjustable and work at very low pressures.
more than impressive, and I'm so glad to hear you're getting the results you planned for!.
if a pressure relief valve would help, then here's a decent link to give you an idea of what's out there.
http://www.circle-seal.com/prod/relief/relief_valves.html (http://www.circle-seal.com/prod/relief/relief_valves.html)
tak
Hey Resin,
Looking at a favorite cheap supply joint I quickly found something from WWW.Grainger.Com
Valve,Pressure Relief
Variable Pressure Relief Valve, Adjusts 0-100 PSI, Maximum 6 SCFM
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4TK26 (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4TK26)
Yeah, only lists for $10.24
This valve is made for an air compressor, so it's a gas valve.
Trying this won't set you back much and could get you to the next step in this adventure!
Walterj
Quote from: ResinRat2 on October 11, 2007, 07:26:18 PM
The fan itself draws 1.4V at 33mA while it is running. The zinc regeneration circuit shows 0.813V at only 3.4mA with the Volt meter in the circuit. Yes that's 3.4mA. Not much power required to regenerate the zinc in this system.
So does that mean my overunity is the fan load?
I reported these numbers last night but I really can't believe these numbers myself. It seems too large of a difference. When I see something like this I have red flags going off all over in my brain. I am at work right now so I won't be able to confirm these results until sometime tonight.
46.2mW fan load - 2.8mW regeneration draw = 43.4mW overunity? That's too high to believe.
I must have missed something or measured something incorrectly.
Right now, let's assume these numbers are incorrect and wait for my confirmation.
Thanks for the PRV suggestions Tak, Walter, and Mike. The adjustable one looks good.
I have a Harbor Freight just a mile from my home. I'll stop in and see what's available.
Thanks again, you guys are great.
Hi Everyone,
News about Airgen. Posted yesterday:
http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage7951.html
This is too funny to contemplate. What do I have running for regeneration? 0.8 - 0.9volts to produce the oxygen and bring about the zinc regeneration. That means I am producing both hydrogen and oxygen like regular electrolysis.
I love it. I must be pretty close to the right track. lol
My guess is if you set up similar to my last experiment, and run it with a transformer at about 1 volt, that you would get the hydrogen and oxygen off just like regular electrolysis AND the zinc would be regenerating at the same time.
This is too similar and too amazing. Wow!
Hi Everyone,
Well, I rechecked the numbers and here is what I recorded for the running of the reactor today:
Fan : 1.4 volts at 29mA
Regeneration: 0.826 volts at 7.23mA
So am I right here?
(Fan Draw) - (Regeneration Draw) = Overunity Amount
(1.4 V x 0.029 A) - ( 0.826 V x 0.00723 A) = Overunity
( 0.0406 Watts ) - ( 0.00597 Watts ) = 0.0346 Watts Overunity.
That's : (0.0346/0.0406) x 100 = 85% Overunity
OK, somebody tell me what I am doing wrong. It can't possibly be that high.
It's running and regenerating and I still need to fix the pressure problem but I am working on it.
Somebody tell me where my numbers are wrong.
I think what that means is 85% of your output power from the fuel cell is going to the fan and 15% to regeneration? So I guess that the energy moving the fan would be the excess and thus overunity. But don't quote me on that. So, the regeration is working?? SWEET.
Quote from: mramos on October 12, 2007, 10:18:42 PM
Sounds like the 85% to run the fan is your OU. Like Super says, Congrats Dave..
Now, make it bigger and send me one. hahaha.
What are the specs on the cell? You're probably not maxing it out right? So you might want to shoot for more gas output next round. Sure you have another round in you now. This is exciting for sure.
Also, with the cost to make unit & cell and the watts out, you can see what your kilowatts costs are. You have to beat the power company .10 per Kw. That is always the big trick and the also cost to maintain it.
Any heat from this one? If so your AC is pulling power to cool it. But in the past it did not get hot.
Hi Mike,
I agree, this looks like it is encouraging enough to build a larger unit. I am using only 12 Tungsten/Carbide electrodes in this one so it is small. I have 40 or 50 more electrodes I can put into a unit. I would like to see how the regeneration and the switching of the zinc electrode connections works out longterm before I do anything else. No sense building a larger unit until I learn how to maintain a smaller one.
I have to admit, as I'm measuring this unit and watching it work I get butterflies in my stomach. I know it sounds silly, but I feel like I am looking at a new era in human existence. The beginning of the hydrogen era boys. This particular unit has a small output, but we can build it any size we want; and no excess heat to make things complicated. It feels so weird to be part of this.
Fuel Cell specs:
Fuel cell 1:
Fuel Cell Eco H
2/Air
Power: 300mW
Generated Voltage: 0.4-0.96V
--------------------------------------
Fuel Cell 2:
3.0 W PEM Stack 4 Cell Convection Fuel Cell Stack
Power output: 3-5 Watts
Voltage: 0-3.5 V
Current: 0-2.5 A
---------------------------------------
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Hi Mike,
You are right, I am using the small cell for the regeneration and the larger one to power the fan.
Fixing the pressure problem should be as simple as sealing the oxygen side and putting a pressure release there. I can't fit more electrodes in this one because of the design and the size, but I think once the pressure problem is fixed that the running of the unit will be more stable.
Posting some video soon.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Did you made sure that the replating is done fully ?
My guess is what you might think is OU is in faq a lost to the replating process.
Soonner or later you might have to "recharge" the cell to replate properly.
Weight the zinc electrode, run the cell for a few days, then re-weight.
G'day Dave,
This is just a quick idea regarding your problem.
It would appear to me that if you can equalise the pressure between the two gas chambers your problem would disappear.
Why not separate the two sections with a flexible membrane like in the diagram below?
Hans von Lieven
Hi Hans,
Thanks for the suggestion but I think I have found a simple solution. I just took the hose on the oxygen side and secured it so it is straight up in the air. If the hydrogen pressure gets a bit high the liquid can just climb the tube until the pressure is equalized. The liquid can also be drawn down if it gets to low. The oxygen can now also escape easily. Looks like it has been working great for the last three hours, the longest I have had it running at a stretch without my intervention. Looks stable, the liquid levels are staying even, I think the problem is solved.
Hi TheNOP,
The zinc is regenerating, I can see it and the oxygen bubbles slowly coming off the electrode. Voltage=0.812 , Amperage=3.93mA. The fan is running at full blast: off the small fuel cell. Voltage=0.744Volts, Amperage=47mA
That's the overunity amount. The fan is running very fast. I think I can put more load on it. I have been experimenting to see whether to use the small or large fuel cell for regeneration. They both give the same readings for draw at regeneration.
I am going to let this run and run, swithcing the zinc electrode connections once a day. This is now a working unit and looks stable.
THIS IS IT BOYS! This is the working prototype for long term testing. It begins today and continues until something happens that shouldn't happen.
Fingers crossed, but I am only looking for the truth. Is this overunity? Will it run on just water? We shall see.
Posting videos soon.
P.S. All I need now is a circuit that will charge a 6 or 12 volt battery off the fuel cell. Preferably the large one. Anybody, HELP! lol.
G'day again Dave,
Congratulations on your achievement, you have worked long and hard on this and with a great deal of ingenuity. I am happy for you. All the best with your long term tests.
Hans von Lieven
Way to go RR! Knew you could get there. Crowd on the sideline is still rootin for ya'....
Good Luck with the testing.
OK Everyone,
I had to clean up my work area before I took these videos so everyone doesn't know I'm a SLOB! lol.
Attached are a couple of views of the reactor. You can see the four electrodes 2 zinc on one side and two different sized tungsten/carbide electrodes on the other. You can see the two fuel cells. The plastic one is the 0.9 volt one and the metal one is the 3 watt job. The small one is running the fan and the larger one is regenerating one of the zinc electrodes at the same time the other zinc electrode is being used to produce hydrogen. You can also see the oxygen vent tube I placed straight up and secured it so in case of overflow it will go into a jar. This allows the two sides of the reactor to equalize their liquid levels and vent oxygen at the same time.
The fan is running at what must be max speed, that's why I used the small fuel cell to run it. I don't know its power rating (fan) and I don't want to burn anything out. I will add more load in the future and perhaps use the large one to run things.
So we have a working unit. Generating hydrogen and oxygen at the same time and also regenerating the zinc. All with no power input and a good power output (relatively speaking).
I will now be doing long-term testing so unless something drastic happens you won't hear much for a while.
Thanks for your interest.
Another short video.
Hi ResinRat !
Very well done !
Please keep at it and let us know
the outcome of a longer test.
How much did you pay for the 2 fuel cells
and where did you buy them ?
What is their power rating ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Sorry the videos are so short. For some reason I am having a very difficult time posting longer ones on this site.
My computer was down for two weeks because it was attacked and destroyed by spyware, so I don't have all my software loaded, and windows movie maker is still missing. I can't edit the views and lengths of videos.
So I am posting the best I can. I know, I know, I need to buy a better video camera. Sorry about that right now.
Quote from: hartiberlin on October 13, 2007, 09:47:21 PM
How much did you pay for the 2 fuel cells
and where did you buy them ?
What is their power rating ?
Plexiglas fuel cell: http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/tornado/view=Item/cat=61/product=40
Metal fuel cell: http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/tornado/view=Item/cat=24/product=43
They are not cheap, and there is the disadvantage of this system. I will now be working on designing a platinum coated mesh that will be installed directly within the cell itself. The hypothesis I have is to use the hydrogen on one side of the reactor, and the oxygen on the other separated by a permeable barrier (filter mesh or filter paper) that will use the hydrogen and the OH
- ions in the electrolyte solution to produce a current. So the entire unit will be sealed and no gas or water vapor would escape. It would just be a box running cold and sucking the heat from the air around it. Producing electricity from the temperature differential.
This was Dingus Mungus' dream idea. A sealed box that produces electricity.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Hi Resinrat2
Outstanding work!
i have been thinking about your pressure problem and may have a solution for you.
connect hydrogen output as usual but with a tee piece
connect oxgen with a tee and block off unused end
place a length of pipe to each tee and submerge each pipe THE SAME DEPTH in a jar of water
the higher pressure oxygen or hydrogen will try to displace the electrolyte which will be hard to do, so it will bubble out of the jar of water
the static pressure of the outlet will depend on the depth of water, as long as it is easier to bubble out of the water than diplace the electrolyte then your'e home free.
really hope this helps
dorro.
you could even have a separate jar for each gas and collect any
Hi Dorro,
Yes, I had thought about the idea of separate reaction containers too, but I really wanted the zinc re-plating to go on as quickly as possible, hopefully before the zinc ion became a zincate, and that meant I needed the zinc rods as close as possible in the same chamber. I appreciate the suggestion on the pressure balancing idea, but I appear to have found the solution now. The liquid levels are exactly equal and steady and the pressure flow seems constant based off the operation of the fan. Nice, steady, and constant.
It is running very nicely and I will be taking readings every few hours or so of voltages across both the fan connections and the regeneration connections. I won't bother with amps because I don't want to stop the reaction and my amp meter has an auto-shutoff feature. It would shut down and the reaction would stop. This is a no no with me.
Also, the reactor surface is very cold, the metal of the electrodes sticking outside the reactor are also very cold. This is my energy draw from the atmosphere. The overunity energy. Very nice to see. It would be nice to get temperature differential readings, but I just don't have that type of equipment at home.
Thanks for your ideas and interest.
I bet Dr. Griffin will have a smile on his face after reading what you've accomplished! Good job!
Quote from: Super God on October 14, 2007, 06:12:04 PM
I bet Dr. Griffin will have a smile on his face after reading what you've accomplished! Good job!
Thanks Brian,
I hope he doesn't find too much fault with my work. I appreciate your compliment.
Hi resinrat2
great stuff!!!
will watch this space.................
regards
dorro
So now is it reasonable to turn the FAN onto the Electrodes, for both Air Cooling and feeding heat back into reaction, a closed loop Air Conditioner? Fuel cell heat could also be coupled back.
George King
Quote from: ResinRat2 on October 14, 2007, 02:03:18 PM
Also, the reactor surface is very cold, the metal of the electrodes sticking outside the reactor are also very cold. This is my energy draw from the atmosphere. The overunity energy. Very nice to see. It would be nice to get temperature differential readings, but I just don't have that type of equipment at home.
Thanks for your ideas and interest.
Quote from: kinggeorge on October 15, 2007, 10:20:09 PM
So now is it reasonable to turn the FAN onto the Electrodes, for both Air Cooling and feeding heat back into reaction, a closed loop Air Conditioner? Fuel cell heat could also be coupled back.
Hey George,
I loved it. I ran downstairs and turned the fan around to blow on the reactor.
Great idea!
Thanks!!!
RR you are a genius - well done!!! do you have time to get everything - ie the design, parts suppliers etc into a pdf file so we can reproduce what you have so far? I would hate this to disappear - I know all the info is on this forum but is is hard to locate everything in one place so a pdf (in a sticky) would be wonderful. i would be prepared to pay for it, or even market it on your behalf.
again, i stand in awe of your accomplishment.
darc
hey george,
good ideas
i already thought about the waste heat from the fuel cell by putting it underneath the the reactor, as heat rises
and these little cells are not very efficient.
the only problem would be the recycling of the water from the fuel cell,
to do this without the aid of a pump you would need the fuel cell to be above the reactor and another input from the bottom of the reactor with an elbow and length of vertical pipe at least as tall as the reactor body. a kind of water trap, and let the fuel cell dribble into the vertical pipe, gravity will do the rest.
otherwise you would need a sump under the fuel cell and a small pump....syringe?
just thinking out loud
regards
dorro
Darc, you wrote:
RR you are a genius - well done!!! No darc, I am no genius. Far from it. I know because I work with some colleagues who ARE genius and I couldn't hold a candle to them. What I think you are impressed by is simply the following of the scientific method of research and development. That's all. There is no magic here, only the interpretation of data and a bit of creative ingenuity for the next step to try. do you have time to get everything - ie the design, parts suppliers etc into a pdf file so we can reproduce what you have so far? I would hate this to disappear - I know all the info is on this forum but is is hard to locate everything in one place so a pdf (in a sticky) would be wonderful. i would be prepared to pay for it, or even market it on your behalf.Give me a few days to compile this. I already have a dozen ideas for modification improvements just from these last 70 or so hours of operation. I can see the goal in my mind. The Linnard Griffin Ambient Energy Battery.
Thanks everyone for your interest, ideas, and support.
Quote from: dorro1971 on October 16, 2007, 03:23:20 PM
hey george,
good ideas
i already thought about the waste heat from the fuel cell by putting it underneath the the reactor, as heat rises
and these little cells are not very efficient.
the only problem would be the recycling of the water from the fuel cell,
to do this without the aid of a pump you would need the fuel cell to be above the reactor and another input from the bottom of the reactor with an elbow and length of vertical pipe at least as tall as the reactor body. a kind of water trap, and let the fuel cell dribble into the vertical pipe, gravity will do the rest.
otherwise you would need a sump under the fuel cell and a small pump....syringe?
just thinking out loud
regards
dorro
Hi dorro,
All these problems will be solved once the reactor is completely sealed. That is the final step in the Goal! The fuel cell will be incorporated within the cell by the platinum coated meshes that I will be working on. All the heat generated will go directly into the electrolyte solution. Since it will be sealed there will be no loss of water.
Can you picture a "cold" box sucking the heat from around it just like an ice cube does? Only this box won't melt; only produce electrical power.
Can you picture that? I can.
Hi Dave,
As soon as you get this device punched out, you will be ready to design one for weightless environments, right? Because we are going to need them for space exploration. LOL
Of course we are going to have to get you some room to work on the ISS. Hope you have plenty of dramamine.
I'm so far behind... I finally made it over to the biggest welding supply company in my area to refill my acetylene tank and nope... they did not have any tungsten carbide welding rods. Figures...
I have not posted in a while because I had nothing add... (as if this post was adding anything). Anyway, keep up the excellent work. Your footnote in science is growing larger! :D
I hope no one will mind if I plug my project site which I just built a couple of days ago to show off the (non-OU) projects that I have managed to make progress on: http://davetech23.tripod.com/
So, until I have something worthwhile to add...
Davetech
Quote from: ResinRat2 on October 15, 2007, 11:30:31 PM
Quote from: kinggeorge on October 15, 2007, 10:20:09 PM
So now is it reasonable to turn the FAN onto the Electrodes, for both Air Cooling and feeding heat back into reaction, a closed loop Air Conditioner? Fuel cell heat could also be coupled back.
Hey George,
I loved it. I ran downstairs and turned the fan around to blow on the reactor.
Great idea!
Thanks!!!
Now I wonder about this. When I put my hand between the reactor and the fan I feel my hand cooling. Is the fan blowing moisture over my hand and cooling my hand? If that is the case, is it doing that to the reactor? Actually cooling it by blowing the moisture away from the reactor surface and cooling it? Isn't that how sweat on your skin and wind cool you? Or am I being fooled by the fact that my body temperature is higher than the air temperature? Unlike the reactor that is cooler than the air temperature.
I wonder if it is better to point the fan away from the reactor so it DRAWS the cooler air away from the reactor. This replaces the cooler air by warmer air from the surrounding environment? Is that the same thing? Not sure. Wish I had a way to measure the reactor temperature.
Quote from: Davetech on October 16, 2007, 09:12:44 PM
As soon as you get this device punched out, you will be ready to design one for weightless environments, right? Because we are going to need them for space exploration. LOL
Of course we are going to have to get you some room to work on the ISS. Hope you have plenty of dramamine.
Unless the spacecraft is completely sealed from heat loss to the surrounding vacuum of outer space, the heat would slowly (or quickly) bleed from the spacecraft and eventually lose all energy. This unit does not create energy, it mearly transfers the available energy from warm to cool back to warm again.
On our earth it would actually just be running off the available energy of our sun.
"...the heat would slowly (or quickly) bleed from the spacecraft and eventually lose all energy."
So we need a constant, small, long lived supply of heat..... hmmmm... hey, that's what they make uranium for!
Just shootin' from the hip here.
;D
WOW! Great work RR! You've made a lot of progress in that reactor design since I last popped in. Amazing COP by your current measurements. I've been totally consumed by campaigning for the 08 elections, but I still hope to work on this project again in the future. It may be a while... LOL!
So I'm glad you're still thinking about the concept that brought you to this point. I know now that the idea is out there and this can't be stopped. Your constant improvements in reactor design and dedicated updates have spread this idea beyond containment. It's only a matter of time until you, Dr Griffin, or one of the others who have an understanding of this technology fully develop the first fully isothermal generator, and because its NOT a closed system of energy and the heat pool is regenerated daily, even mainstream physics can agree it works... Gibbs to watts!
Also may I suggest two pieces of future equipment and a possible variable in your reduction method... Infrared thermometer, and total dissolved solids meter. Using a base line TDS reading is an easy way to determine if zinc is building up. You can get basic a IR thermometers and TDS meters on ebay for about $30 each w/ shipping. Just a suggestion. As for the variable... When you wrote that both fuel cells measured the same load when used in reduction it leads me to believe that the distance between the electrodes (circuit resistance) is limiting your reduction speed. So if you can tighten this distance in the coming prototype I can assume a higher rate of reduction.
Keep up the great work... Your doing so well that you can keep up with Airgens press releases. Imagine that, a private open source researcher may just solve the problem, balance the equation, and poof it could go in to production. I have great faith we are on the cusp of a new renaissance in so many ways.
~Dingus Mungus
< shameless plug >
Please vote Ron Paul in your states primaries, lets take the neocons out of power for good.
< /shameless plug >
:P double post
Thanks for the kind words Chris.
The reactor has been running for 100 hours as of 8:30PM tonight (US Central Time). There are many interesting observations that I have made and I learned a few things.
Right now the fan is steady and drawing 0.710 volts at 50.3mA.
The zinc generation draw is 0.252 volts at less than 0.02mA.
What is interesting is that I have been changing which zinc electrode regenerates once a day, and I can see the zinc regenerated on the bottom of the top electrode, or on the top of the bottom electrode. Exactly what I hypothesized would happen. The zinc is regenerating as fast as it is being used and it is avoiding the zincate formation. At least, that is what it looks like. That is why I believe the draw is so low. There is little energy required to quickly reduce the zinc back onto a zinc electrode.
I will put together a short experiment report soon. Meanwhile, the reactor continues its run. Hopefully for at least this week (month?, year?)lol.
Thanks for your interest.
P.S. Ron Paul has MY vote.
Update:
The lower voltages and draw readings were caused by the fuel cells drying out. It seems that I need to make it a practice of re-hydrating the fuel cells (just misting them with water on the air side and flushing with a water using a syringe on the hydrogen side) at least once a day. The voltages went back up. Also I had a water blockage in the tube that joins the fuel cells. This I blew out.
Also, the large fuel cell may be slightly contaminated when the electrolyte solution overflowed the first day. I flushed it out then, but flushed it out again with water and seemed to help.
0.733 volts on the fan @ 50mA (small fuel cell)
0.803 volts on the draw @ 6.5mA (large fuel cell)
Sorry, these things happen. Just look at my motto at the bottom. I can't even count how many times during my working career that I made a mistake and it actually turned out to be a good thing that saved time. Not all breakthroughs are planned. LOL!!! Especially for me!!!
Back to business.
Thanks for your interest.
i understand the more draw on a fuel cell, the more losses occure in the fuel cell. So maybe many small combined versions like this would be better than one larger one.
What causes the losses? Could it be just heat loss, or hydrogen leakage? Either way, by building the fuel cell internally in future designs both types of losses would be eliminated. Heat would just go back into the reaction to speed it up, and hydrogen would just be recaptured and used.
This concept, along with John Searl's design, are the two devices that I am most hopeful of. I'm trying to be as patient as possible, but I really want to know exactly how this is built.
Sorry everyone,
I added water to the reactor last night, and by this morning (155 hours total elapsed time running) the reactor stopped working. The zinc electrodes are covered with zincates. This is a far cry from running indefinitely like I thought it would.
It's interesting, but I think what motofox just wrote was the key. The large fuel cell, even though it had a potential for a greater output, never did seem to run the fan as well as the smaller fuel cell. So I switched to the larger fuel cell for regeneration and the smaller one for the fan. Perhaps there was too great of loss of efficiency by the large fuel cell to fully regenerate the electrodes. Also, I did have fewer tungsten/carbide electrodes in the reactor this time than in previous occasions.
So I will need to examine my data, and decide if this is worth pursuing.
I feel like I am missing something simple. Something that I failed to do or did incorrectly. I will need to look back and see exactly what I did and try to figure out why this happened.
Very sorry everyone. There may still be potential here, but these initial results did not show it.
I wonder if having the platinum mesh contained inside the reactor solution itself would take care of that problem. Not sure. Need to think.
Maybe your expectations are too high regarding this.
What are the chances that the chimical reactions can be more then just balanced ?
If i red the patent corrently one of the reaction is exothermic.
And to quote Mr.Griffin, it is beleived to be in balance with the endothermic reaction.
Unless both reactions are endothermic, i can't see how any OU can flow in.
I am viewing this like a battery with special particularities, it produce hydrogen and/or oxygen.
A solar panel could be use to regenerate the zinc.
If you have a mixture of endothermic and exothermic reactions, the overall reaction (which is the overall combination of all of the reactions) can be endothermic.There is nothing strange about that. I think my problem here is that I need more gas flow, which requires more tungsten/carbide electrodes. The goal is to increase the hydrogen output enough to activate enough electrical output from the large fuel cell to regenerate the zinc. The amount of zinc should not need to be increased at all.
To me this is just another experiment to help steer us in the right direction for the next step. The formation of the zincates (Zn(OH)2) indicates to me that not enough current was output from the regeneration fuel cell to drive off the oxygen and replate the zinc.
Oxidation: 4OH- --> 2H2O + O2 + 4e-
Reduction: 2Zn+2 + 4e- --> 2Zn (This is the re-plating or reduction of the zinc on the zinc electrode)
Adding the two equations together:
Zn+2 + 4OH- --> 2H2O +2Zn +O2 ( Driving off the oxygen and re-plating the zinc )
Instead it plated as a zincate. So the regeneration fuel cell needs higher output. That will come from higher hydrogen production.
Next step is to boost the hydrogen production by adding more tungsten/carbide electrodes. I will see what I can do about this.
One other thing I want to mention. I want to stay completely away from using solar cells. This thing shouldn't work only when the sun is shining. If that were the case then we might as well just use solar cells and forget this hydrogen unit completely.
I think you know what I mean.
The efficiency of a fuel is dependent on the amount of power drawn from it. Drawing more power means drawing more current, which increases the losses in the fuel cell. As a general rule, the more power (current) drawn, the lower the efficiency. Most losses manifest themselves as a voltage drop in the cell, so the efficiency of a cell is almost proportional to its voltage. For this reason, it is common to show graphs of voltage versus current (so-called polarization curves) for fuel cells. A typical cell running at 0.7 V has an efficiency of about 50%, meaning that 50% of the energy content of the hydrogen is converted into electrical energy; the remaining 50% will be converted into heat. (Depending on the fuel cell system design, some fuel might leave the system unreacted, constituting an additional loss.)
For a hydrogen cell operating at standard conditions with no reactant leaks, the efficiency is equal to the cell voltage divided by 1.48 V, based on the enthalpy, or heating value, of the reaction. For the same cell, the second law efficiency is equal to cell voltage divided by 1.23 V. (This voltage varies with fuel used, and quality and temperature of the cell.) The difference between these number represents the difference between the reaction's enthalpy and Gibbs free energy. This difference always appears as heat, along with any losses in electrical conversion efficiency.
Fuel cells are not constrained by the maximum Carnot cycle efficiency as combustion engines are, because they do not operate with a thermal cycle. At times, this is misrepresented when fuel cells are said to be exempt from the laws of thermodynamics; meaning, as most people think of thermodynamics in terms of combustion processes (enthalpy of formation). The Laws of Thermodynamics hold for chemical processes (Gibb's free energy), like fuel cells, also but the maximum theoretical efficiency is much higher (83% efficient at 298K [9]) than the Carnot cycle (21% for a car with TL=293K and TH=373K), the most efficient combustion cycle). In reference to the exemption claim, the correct claim is that the "limitations imposed by the second law of thermodynamics on the operation of fuel cells are much less severe than the limitations imposed on conventional energy conversion systems" Consequently, they can have very high efficiencies in converting chemical energy to electrical energy, especially when they are operated at low power density, and using pure hydrogen and oxygen as reactants.
Thanks to Wiki
Thanks for the info motofox,
So the loss is in heat or escaped/unused hydrogen gas.
This means that if platinum coated wires sealed within the reactor could be used instead, then the efficiency should be------- 100%!! The heat and the gas would go right back into the reactor. Both good for the reaction.
Right? Am I just bouncing an idea off a wall here or does it sound correct? It does to me.
This is the direction I should be going with this then.
Thanks again for the information.
Hi Everyone,
After reassessing the last experiment I made a couple of changes. I lowered the concentration of electrolyte to 20%. Also I am using only KOH (With double the concentrations of colloids specified in the patent Experiment#13). This gives a solution that has a much, much lower viscosity and allows the bubbles to go straight up instead of downward, sideways, etc. Also I replaced my large fuel cell with a smaller one. I now have two identical (0.9V, 300mW) fuel cells. This is thanks to motofox who posted the information about the efficiency of fuel cells. I can already see that the smaller cell used for regeneration is holding a higher voltage after 12 hours. I will also be switching the regeneration electrode every 12 hours instead of 24 hours, just to see if this makes a difference in the formation of zincates. I also squeezed in a couple more tungsten/carbide cathodes to boost hydrogen production.
I will post videos after I get back from work and clean up my work area mess. They don't look much different from the previous experiment except the metal fuel cell is replaced by the Plexiglas smaller one. Theoretically this should be more efficient and regenerate the zinc at a higher voltage to retard the formation of zincates. We shall see if this is correct.
Future designs will incorporate platinum-coated wire mesh in place of the fuel cells.
Here's to longterm hydrogen generation. Cheers.
Thanks for your interest.
R%R
What you have done is tenacious and admirable. The time and effort you have put in to this project is Awesome. Thank You!
You too Dingus.
I have a few thoughts that you can accept or reject as you please.
1. Your divider between the H2 and O2 zones in the reactor, Why the V ?
Is there an issue with H2 Migrating to the O2 Side? if not might I suggest a hole with a 30deg angle downward from the O2 side to the H2 side as O2 seldom falls and H2 in the O2 side I do not see as a problem. I could be wrong.
2. Leaks, Off the shelf containers might be something you might consider for future replications. "The Container Store" comes to mind here.
3. Mounting your anodes and electrodes to the lid of you container would give you flexibility especially in prototypes. And save time in leak detection and repair.
Please do not take this as criticism, it is not.
You have done a good thing.
Thank You
Tinker
Hi Tinker,
The V between the chambers is to keep gas from migrating. It works better now that the viscosity of my electrolyte solution is lower. The previous solution had a higher concentration of NaOH and KOH and was viscous. The bubbles migrated every direction and had a tendency to creep between the chambers. The oxygen getting into the hydrogen side is bad because it lowers the efficiency of the fuel cell and drops my output. The hydrogen getting into the oxygen side is bad only in the sense that I am losing potential energy from the lost hydrogen. I would like to keep either gas from migrating. The future designs will have a much steeper angle to further prevent gas migration.
As far as leaks go, I have them fixed now. I have tried getting off the self containers, but had little luck obtaining the design I wanted. I searched and searched at stores here where I live and on the net. No luck getting exactly what I want so far. If you look at the reactor design you can see what I mean. It is a bit specialized. Gaskets only caused me trouble, and it turned out that I simply had to glue the lid shut just like the rest of the reactor and only access the electrodes through holes in the sides sealed by the rubber stoppers. This worked out and I will do it this way through future designs.
I like the idea of the electrodes attached to the lid. This looks like what Linnard Griffin did in the video of his tiny reactor that ran the fans and toy stoplight. Again, it looks highly specialized and would need to be custom made. I appreciate the suggestions. I think suggestions are great as long as ridicule never enters into the picture. This has happened to me in the past and exposes my dark side, unfortunately. Sorry again everyone.
My reactor had an overflow issue overnight and blew electrolyte solution into the fuel cells. I see many areas where improvement and design alterations are needed. This was the first prototype afterall, but it is proving my concept of keeping the zinc electodes regenerated and the solution clean. I don't see any zincates so far; but my gas flow is disappointing. There is enough to power regeneration, but the fan only runs on and off intermittently. I need to double or triple the number of tungsten/carbide electrodes for better hydrogen output, but there is no room for that in the present design. So this is another step, another gathering of knowledge, and a very encouraging series of results.
In the next design I will greatly increase the number of tungsten/carbide electrodes. I will also try to incorporate the idea of platinum coated wires directly in the upper portion of the reactor so the gases flow over them in the electrolyte solution. This should generate a current directly so no outside fuel cells are needed. So I believe I have the maintenance issues ironed out pretty well. The switching of the electrode connections for regeneration seemed to work better every twelve hours instead of every twenty four hours. The hydrogen reactor solution maintained a clean appearance and the zinc electrodes had no evidence of zincates formed on the surface. Nice and uniform.
The reactor has been running 39 hours now and looks good as far as no zincates forming. The regeneration draw is 0.835 volts at 3.39mA. The fan draws over 50mA and hits 0.710 volts. This is my overunity, but it starts and stops intermittently. So I need higher hydrogen gas flow. Not possible in this present design. I am disappointed, but this is just another failed experiment that I get to learn from.
Also, the electrodes are very cold. Drawing energy from the environment. Maybe a thinner walled Plexiglas container would transfer heat more easily from the environment and speed the reaction. Though I do like the strength of the thicker-walled Plexiglas.
1) Higher gas output = more tungsten/carbide electrodes. This means a larger reactor size.
2) To incorporate the platinum wires I will need a second "tier" to hold them above the t/c electrodes.
The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.
Each step is closer to the goal.
Thanks everyone for your interest, ideas, and support.
Random off the wall half baked idea here: Maybe this colloidal catalyst effect can work with photovoltaics. A solar cell is just another unique form of a galvanic cell. Just tossing it out there...
Good and surprising news everyone,
For some reason the reactor began to increase its gas output and has been running both the zinc regeneration AND the fan. So it is working as it should, and it has been for the last 4 hours.
Notice on the video that the electrolyte solution is a brownish color. This is from the silver colloid, and in all my previous tests the silver has always settled out. This reactor, however, because of the regeneration that is occuring, I believe this is why it is staying more stable and cleaner. The silver colloid is regenerating, as well as the zinc and most likely the magnesium colloid too. Which is a clear colloid and cannot be seen.
I think we have a long-term test finally underway. total 48 hours reactor running so far with both the fan and regeneration at about five hours. That means I seem to have reached an equilibrium at this point. right where I want to be.
I will do draw testing later. I want it to run overnight at least before I start messing with it.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on October 27, 2007, 07:20:55 PM
Good and surprising news everyone,
For some reason the reactor began to increase its gas output and has been running both the zinc regeneration AND the fan. So it is working as it should, and it has been for the last 4 hours.
Actually, I now realize why. Just an hour or so before this happened I inclined the reactor slightly so the bubbles could flow off the electrodes more easily than when the reactor was flat level. This appears to be what made the difference.
The simple things we miss.
Thank you for your interest.
Excellent work RR. Can't wait to see how this one goes
Darc
Hi Darc,
I agree, I can't wait to see how this goes either. It just past the 71 hour mark and it is running just as I had hoped. I switched the electrodes again and there is no evidence of zincates. The solution is a beautiful brownish color, and the fan and regeneration voltage are running nice and steady. The zinc electrodes look smooth and uniform, very much unlike the jagged, craggy, and blobbish zincates that had formed for me in the past.
Wow, I am very surprised and happy right now. I hope it continues and I hope my maintenance procedures are correct.
Sometime down the road I will have to add water to it. That is when the other reactor run died. I have my fingers crossed it won't be because of water addition; but this run is different. The zincates are not there now like they were there then. The smaller fuel cell is more efficient and it is holding a higher regeneration voltage. Looking at the Airgen website there is a presentation that shows that a voltage of 0.8 volts was needed for theoretical regeneration. Practical voltage was 0.9 volts. Mine has been in the range of 0.87-0.817 volts. This sounds good.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Did some meter readings. I have a fan draw of 0.674 volts at 41.4 mA and I have a regeneration draw of 0.826 volts at 3.44 mA.
So my calculations are as follows:
Fan= (0.674V)(0.0414A)= 0.0279Watts or 27.9mW
Regeneration=(0.826V)(0.00344A)= 0.00284Watts or 2.84mW
27.9mW-2.84mW= 25.06 mW overunity.
25.06mW
------------- x 100 = over 89% overunity.
27.9mW
It is difficult to believe it is that high but those are the numbers I have right now. Similar to the 85% overunity I calculated previously.
I am not putting much faith in these numbers right now. They are all mute if the reactor stops running. It needs to keep going and going without stopping. We shall see.
Somebody please correct me if I am wrong here. It is easy to make a mistake when dealing with new research. I can miss things easily as well.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on October 28, 2007, 09:56:40 PM
25.06mW
------------- x 100 = over 89% overunity.
27.9mW
It is difficult to believe it is that high but those are the numbers I have right now. Similar to the 85% overunity I calculated previously.
Just realized something else to consider. The external fuel cells are only about 50% efficient at best. If the fuel cell could be built inside the reactor then the efficiency would skyrocket. Probably close to 100%. That would put the overunity number even higher.
This is an encouraging variable to consider. I believe evidence enough to justify scaling up in size. So while this reactor continues to run and I continue to learn how to properly maintain it, I will begin the planning and construction of a much, much larger prototype.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Hey RR,
I'm one of the avid watchers of this thread. And I just thought it about time to make another posting.
Just wanted to say, I have great faith in this whole 'journey', but at the end of the day, if you never reach the ultimate goal of OU......
Save the world, and subsequently sock it to Big Oil.........you have been an inspiration to follow.
Your openess to ideas and you downright persistance is truly awsome and if all you do is motivate the rest of us to get off our arses and do something about the world, then you have already succeeded.
So as a spokesperson for the 'rest of us'........a massive thank you for your efforts so far and so forth.
Cheers
NssB
P.S - The above goes to everyone who has contributed also, let it not be said :)
Quote from: NssB on October 29, 2007, 03:11:18 PM
P.S - The above goes to everyone who has contributed also, let it not be said :)
I think that is the reason it has gotten this far.
I used to write that when I looked DOWN at my young son it inspired me to not quit. Now he is fifteen, going to be driving, and has more height and a lot more hair than me. So when I look UP an my teenage son, it gives me motivation to keep plugging away. I want to prove
definitively whether this will or will not work. I want the world freed from these greedy oil barons. I want my son to live in a safer world.
Let the chips fall where the truth says they will.
G'day Dave,
As someone who is following your experiments with keen interest I have a question. Does your reactor generate enough hydrogen to maintain a small flame?
If that is so, have you considered using a small sterling engine or a thermopile instead of the fuel cells to generate your power?
Good luck with your further tests.
Hans von Lieven
Hi Hans,
I didn't measure the gas output but visually there is about 2-3 small to medium sized bubbles/second coming off the hydrogen side, and one big bubble every 30 seconds or so off the oxygen side. I really don't know what that means for gas output but I seriously doubt it would even run a constant flame.
I had no intention of burning the gas, all I ever wanted to do was use the fuel cell angle to produce electricity. It would be more efficient than burning the hydrogen anyway.
My objective goal when I started the reactor building part of the project was to create a hydrogen reactor that would produce electricity. Then I could concentrate on the chemistry side of the project, not so much an engineering side. Although it does look like it is moving in that direction anyway. Besides, I am no good at combustion engines or anything in that regard. Honestly, it would be out of my league.
Best of luck to you Hans.
Hi RR2, I have followed off and on, but lost track of what power source you are using for Zinc re-plating.
Was looking at you OU numbers and seems like re-plating is your only power input, not counting heat.
So here is another idea, that you may have already done.
1) As cell draws current and acts as a battery when working.
2) Could you replace cell shorting wire with a primary winging of a transformer.
3) With solid state switch opening and closing primary.
4) Secondary stepped up are rectifier, stored in large Cap.
5) Cap voltage powering #3 Oscillator and recharge circuit.
George King
www.cosmicsalamander.com
Hi George,
I am using the fuel cell (0.9V) to power the zinc regeneration. No electronics on this reactor at all right now.
I am very interested in some type of circuit I could use to charge a 6V or 12V battery. Otherwise, I really am an ignoramus as far as electronics and electrical circuits go. You will laugh to yourself and at me as you realize how truly unknowing I am in this area. ???
Especially when I read what you wrote in numbers 2 through 5.
That's why I can't fully develop this project on my own; but I am trying to take it as far as I can.
http://www.icehouse.net/john34/bedinibearden.html
Check out the Bedini motor for charging batteries. Most likely someone here has built one and can explain if its suitable for this experiment.
If they can do this then there's no need for any hydrogen.
So what's the problem? One motor running on the same battery for 15 YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What's the problem? Why isn't it marketed?
Somebody tell me WHAT'S THE HOLDUP?????
I'll just keep working on what I'm working on and let somebody else figure out why the Bendini motor isn't running our world.
G'day Dave
Sorry to keep bothering you but this is going around my head and I just have to know more.
You have proved, at least to my satisfaction, something I have believed for a very long time. Water can be dissociated with less energy than the resultant gases can deliver. It appears to me though that by using a hydrogen fuel cell you are only utilising part of your product.
It would stand to reason that by not separating the gases and burning the resultant H2 O2, more energy would be available than with Hydrogen alone. This would also dispense with the pressure problem in your reactor.
I was thinking of burning the gas and driving with it an external combustion engine, such as the Stirling motor. These motors can operate on a very small temperature difference (as little as four degrees centigrade), though they become more powerful as the difference increases. They are also very efficient. For such a motor to work one would obviously need to maintain a small flame.
The Stirling motor works like this:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stirlingengine.com%2Fgraphics%2Ftech1b.gif&hash=dd48cb620f7ef56bc874e92474e56d1faa081a46)
My question is what would it take to build a reactor that is capable of maintaining a flame, however small. The motors are available as running engines from the shelf and in kit form (at this stage model motors only) and they are cheap and powerful enough to connect to a small DC generator.
Please let me know what you think.
Hans von Lieven
Hi Hans,
I am sure if a very small tip were placed on the hydrogen gas port that it would sustain a small flame. When you are talking three bubbles or so a second, then that would probably do alright.
I've never looked at the sterling engine; but if you have a heat source, then wouldn't you need a cool source too? Are you thinking the cool source would just be ambient air temperature?
I am sure I read somewhere that a fuel cell is more efficient than burning hydrogen gas for a fuel source, but at this time I don't have that information in front of me. Maybe the Sterling engine is more efficient than other engines? I honestly don't know this information for sure.
It gives me something to look into further.
Thanks for your ideas.
Dr Linnards web site shows some very high volume short term Hydrogen on demand generators. Like the ads say just add water. So RR2 how scalable do you see this technology. HOH powering a ICE Internal Combusion Engine is old school. If this is scalable and can regenerate, a 5-10 KWH gen set should be in reach of everyone. Cells material cost seems low?
George King
georgeking@cosmicsalamander.com
Noooooo George,
The fuel cell part of the system is the most expensive part. That technology is very costly right now. Prices should drop in the future but right now not so good.:
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/tornado/view=NavPage/cat=1046
Check out some costs for 200-300watt systems. Ouch.
I think the next part of the research, that entails putting the platinum wires directly in the reactor, should be lower cost since all that is needed is the wires. No other parts of the external fuel cells would be needed. That's my hypothesis anyway.
Theoretically it should be scalable to any needed size. Just make a reactor large enough and load it with enough electrodes and electrolyte, and put it in the hot desert for best results (lol). Should be able to run at ambient temperate climates as well.
I can imagine all our desert areas covered with these reactors.
G'day Dave
A Stirling engine of current design is capable of generating over 50% of the theoretical maximum, an internal combustion engine is rated at 25% by comparison.
The cooling is not critical. Of course if you can keep it low it helps but when you are talking heating with a flame, perhaps using aluminium oxide as a heat storer ambient temperatures are more than adequate. Small models of his thing can actually sit on your hand and spin, the difference between body temperature and ambient is enough to keep it going.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stirlingengine.com%2Fgraphics%2Fmm7_home.jpg&hash=da24f54cbec19d95e44e6d5541ec0a3c2dc9a3b2)
The tiny model below will actually work on top of your coffee cup!
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stirlingengine.com%2Fproduct-file%2F21%2Fmmco21%2Fproduct-thumbnail.jpg&hash=f9c510658c2c29cdaa8acf110bd2f0640c1b1991)
Both these models are are sold commercially and have been for years.
Hans von Lieven
Hi Everyone,
I've got a good one for you. I was looking into developing the internal fuel cell for this hydrogen reactor system and wanted to base it off the fuel cell I saw on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cQg0Ur9Cko&NR=1
Looks great, right?
The only problem: I cannot purchase the dihydrogen hexachloroplatinate hydrate that is used in the video to electroplate a piece of metal screen. Why? It is classified as a hazardous material and can only be purchased by companies or corporations.
So I had a brilliant idea, ask my supervisor to use my company to send it to and I would pay for it. His response, (and he is a nice guy and a great supervisor so there was no malice involved here) NO! Due to it being classified as a hazardous material the company would be legally liable for any injury I may sustain in its use.
So there you have it. Another roadblock in the development of this technology.
The only other options I can think of are to purchase platinum wire directly, or purchase the platinum catalyst from fuelcellstore.com that is in premade form. I am not sure what they look like because no picture is shown.
This kind of puts a damper on how to design the larger reactor, or even how to proceed at this point.
Frustrated. Need to think what to do next.
On a positive note, the reactor passed 140 hours running this morning around 4:30AM US central time. Looks good. Voltages are steady. Cruisin' along.
Thanks for your interest.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on October 31, 2007, 11:43:33 AM
Hi Everyone,
I've got a good one for you. I was looking into developing the internal fuel cell for this hydrogen reactor system and wanted to base it off the fuel cell I saw on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cQg0Ur9Cko&NR=1
Looks great, right?
The only problem: I cannot purchase the dihydrogen hexachloroplatinate hydrate that is used in the video to electroplate a piece of metal screen. Why? It is classified as a hazardous material and can only be purchased by companies or corporations.
So I had a brilliant idea, ask my supervisor to use my company to send it to and I would pay for it. His response, (and he is a nice guy and a great supervisor so there was no malice involved here) NO! Due to it being classified as a hazardous material the company would be legally liable for any injury I may sustain in its use.
So there you have it. Another roadblock in the development of this technology.
The only other options I can think of are to purchase platinum wire directly, or purchase the platinum catalyst from fuelcellstore.com that is in premade form. I am not sure what they look like because no picture is shown.
This kind of puts a damper on how to design the larger reactor, or even how to proceed at this point.
Frustrated. Need to think what to do next.
On a positive note, the reactor passed 140 hours running this morning around 4:30AM US central time. Looks good. Voltages are steady. Cruisin' along.
Thanks for your interest.
Hi ResinRat2,
Yep, liability can be a problem and fully understandable.
May I suggest another approach to platinum interface:
Contact the following<
either
Platinum fine/extrafine wire mesh manufacturers, (mesh, gauze, expanded metal mesh or sieve product companies) eg http://www.uniquewire.com/metals/plat.cfm
or
Platinum Metalized poly( ester, propylene, ethylene etc) also static shield manufacturers.
Metalizing/sputtering thin film companies usually usue Al but they can apply just about any metal. Try CPFilms, 3M, or Technimet if memory serves correctly, there are many others.
Ask for small samples to use for testing. Using your company's name/clout usually gets results and samples are shipped almost 100% of the time.
The first maybe more expensive if they require token payments. The metalized thin films might be easier to get depending on coating thickness in angstroms eyc. If you are willing to pay you may even get better quantities and results.
There are many companies out there.
These are non toxic and can be shipped in a standard envelope.
I hope this helps
Hi All,
we have to get rid of the platinum as the catalysator in a fuel cell.
I have the feeling, that it would work with a slight silver coating on high surface graphite beads.
Has anyone tried this yet ?
Regards, Stefan.
Hi Stefan,
I'll try anything to get a less expensive alternative.
How could this be done, or how could this be tested for proof-of-concept? Anybody have any idea? I have a hydrogen generator running right now so I have plenty of hydrogen to play with.
I can purchase silver wire for use in soldering. It is almost pure silver. So how could this be set up to prove that it could work? Anybody have an idea for an experiment? How do I combine silver and carbon to test this?
I appreciate the input Stefan.
What about all the silver colloid in the reactor itself? Could this maybe be used somehow to combine with carbon or something else.
An internal fuel cell built off the hydrogen and silver colloid in the electrolyte solution itself? What a concept.
I need some ideas people. Let's all brainstorm for some ideas.
I appreciate the input!!! Thanks.
I just had a Crazy-Tuesday idea. (In the lab we call that a crazy idea we have on a Tuesday. As in Crazy _____day idea. just fill in the blank with the day of the week. Actually it is really called a Crazy-A$$ Tuesday idea but we don't want to go there.)
Why don't I take two lead-pencils, sharpen both ends on each pencil, then partially immerse one pencil in each chamber of the reactor (one pencil in the hydrogen side and one pencil in the oxygen side) then see if I get a current off the graphite in the pencils? It's worth a try. What have I got to lose? I can maybe get the pencils through the gas ports, just to see if I get a current. What a concept.
Any thoughts anyone.?
Maybe worth a try?
Yesssssssssssss!
Look at this!!!
http://www.roomd113.com/AP%20take%20home/Pages%20from%20PencilElectrolysis.pdf
Just reverse it to get a current flow.
Yessssssssssss!
Quote from: ResinRat2 on October 31, 2007, 02:36:11 PM
I just had a Crazy-Tuesday idea. (In the lab we call that a crazy idea we have on a Tuesday. As in Crazy _____day idea. just fill in the blank with the day of the week. Actually it is really called a Crazy-A$$ Tuesday idea but we don't want to go there.)
Why don't I take two lead-pencils, sharpen both ends on each pencil, then partially immerse one pencil in each chamber of the reactor (one pencil in the hydrogen side and one pencil in the oxygen side) then see if I get a current off the graphite in the pencils? It's worth a try. What have I got to lose? I can maybe get the pencils through the gas ports, just to see if I get a current. What a concept.
Any thoughts anyone.?
Maybe worth a try?
Hi Dave,
I would certainly enourage you to try along those lines. The first thing that came up in my mind when reading that was ther Stanley Meyer electron extraction circuit. According to him, when the watermolecules break down, they give up two electrons. These are the electrons that can be taken out of the cell for usage. If you DON'T use them they are being used to recombine atoms back into H2O. In his tests he could take current out of the cell and even improve gas productions (because atoms don't get the chance to recombine as the electrons to do that are being extracted). So apart from the current you could get improved gasflow aswell.....
I'm still working on my meyer style cell and haven't confirmed this yet myself. But it is all explained in the Meyer patents (method for gas production patent) and the electron extraction principle has recently been confirmed by Dave Lawton (see the latest D14.pdf file).
So, definately worth trying!!!
keep us posted!
Regards Robert
Maybe I need to use lead pencil refills instead. Expose more surface area. Maybe wrap a few together so I have a thicker carbon electrode to immerse?
My mind is racing with ideas right now, but I am at work and need to concentrate on my lab work so I don't blow my synthesis reactor up here.
Later everyone.
RR
As a follow up:
You wouldn't need carbon for meyer style electron extraction....just copper will do. Might be very easy to test......
Robert
Hi Robert,
Copper would react in the electrolyte. I had some copper do this in previous experiments when I was using just jars and the electrolyte solution. It reacts somehow with one of the ingrediants in the solution. I have to look back at my notebook, which is not here with me at work, and see. I seem to remember a green or greenish surface reaction on the copper. Not sure right now. Need to look back.
Thanks for your input and interest.
Hi RR,
Yeah you are right, probably all the liberated oxygen atoms will turn the copper green.....maybe stainless steel electrodes....
Robert
G'day Dave,
There are a couple of ways in which you can solve your problem with the electrodes. I think it is imperative you use platinum or perhaps palladium or rhodium. This is not as difficult as it sounds. Electroplaters that plate jewellery usually do one or all of the above metals. Simply make up your electrodes in whatever way you wish, mesh, coils or any other shape and have them plated. I would be surprised if it would cost more than 5 dollars each if you had ten or so done.
Alternatively you can buy 1 foot of platinum coated nickel wire from http://sci-toys.com/ for ten dollars (which I think is a bit dear) but perhaps this will do the job.
The way their battery works you can see here: http://sci-toys.com/scitoys/scitoys/echem/fuel_cell/fuel_cell.html
I think they used the dihydrogen hexachloroplatinate hydrate in the video only as illustration of the science behind it rather than a practical solution.
Hope this is helpful
Hans von Lieven
Hi ResinRat,
try it this way:
Use 2 x 99.98 % pure silver rods,
which you normaly buy for silver colloid generators
and apply in a 80degrees Celsius hot destilled water bath
an electrolysis with at least 27 Volts ( 3 x 9 Volts batteries in series)
or use a silver colloid pulse generator.
Let it run at least 30 minutes, better maybe 45 to 60 minutes
so you will have lots of fresh silver atoms inside the destilled water solution.
Then put in many small high surface graphite beads into it and the silver atoms
will glue to the graphite beads and go into the surface of it.
Then take the beads out after a few hours and let them dry and then
make 2 containers each having a graphite bigger rod in the center and
pour in the graphite beads around them, so they have electrical contact with the
main graphite rod.
Then fill the containers with saltwater or NaOH solution
and put a hose with H2 gas in one container and in the
other O2 gas beneath the beads, so the gas can come out and
go through the beads in the saltwater to the surface slowly.
When I am right the silver atoms in the beads will work as
a catalyst cracking the gasses and produce H30+ and OH- ions
which will charge up the graphite rods and a current could be drawn
from them.
Regards,Stefan.
P.S: I am not yet sure, what the best water -salt solution is,
but as NaOH is used in platinum coated fuel cells, I would maybe
try this first instead of just table salt...
Quote from: ResinRat2 on October 31, 2007, 01:31:21 PM
Hi Stefan,
I'll try anything to get a less expensive alternative.
How could this be done, or how could this be tested for proof-of-concept? Anybody have any idea? I have a hydrogen generator running right now so I have plenty of hydrogen to play with.
I can purchase silver wire for use in soldering. It is almost pure silver. So how could this be set up to prove that it could work? Anybody have an idea for an experiment? How do I combine silver and carbon to test this?
I appreciate the input Stefan.
P.S: Between the 2 silver-graphite beads containers you surely need a diaphragma connection
like using a household towel or some sort of heavier paper,so the
ions can go through it from one container to the other.
Hi,
I have some detailed pdf ebooks somwhere, on how to build your own fuel cells. I think if you looked at them, you would see how you could comfortably build one into your reactor !
Let me know if you want them.
Hi Motofox,
If you have some information on how to build "cheap" fuel cells, them I'm interested (of course). I really appreciate the offer.
As an update, the reactor just passed the 156 hour running mark. This now surpasses the previous run of 155 hours when the last reactor run stopped. Voltages are staying around 0.700 volts for the fan operation and around 0.862 volts for the zinc electrode regeneration.
There is a yellowish precipitate that is starting to cover the tungsten carbide electrodes. This started to form two days ago and is increasing in amount as time goes on. I don't know what this is but it is not forming on the zinc side. It would be nice if down the road I could get a sample of it and run an FT-IR on it to see if I could identify it. I don't believe it's a zincate because the zincates form on the zinc side of the reactor. (At least that is what I have always seen in the past.) It could be a breaking down of a colloid or hydroxides of the silver or magnesium colloids. I have no idea; but the reactor is still running and putting out voltage.
This is an interesting development. My guess is it is not a good thing, but we shall see.
Research is always the exploration into the unknown. Who knows what we will find in the future.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
I found this today on Science Daily.
Strasser and his team, which includes Ratndeep Srivastava, a graduate student, Prasanna Mani, a postdoctoral researcher, and Nathan Hahn, a 2007 UH graduate, have met and, seemingly, exceeded this ?magic number.? The team created a catalyst that uses less platinum, making it at least four times ? and up to six times ? more efficient and cheaper than existing catalysts at comparable power levels.
?We have found a low platinum alloy that we pre-treat in a special way to make it very active for the reaction of oxygen to water on the surface of our catalyst,? Strasser said. ?A more active catalyst means that we get more electricity, or energy, for the amount of platinum used and the time it?s used for. With a material four to six times more efficient, the cost of the catalyst has reached an important target set by industrial fuel cell developers and the U.S. Department of Energy.?
Anyone know what this is and how to access it? (Below) Even If I found it I wouldn't know what to do with it.
Strasser?s preliminary results and research have been published in the October 2007 issues of Angewandte Chemie International Edition and Journal of the American Chemical Society.
The whole article is here.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071030121117.htm.
Tinker
RR
This might be right up your alley.
http://intl.emboj.org/nature/journal/v443/n7107/full/nature05118.html
United States Patent 20060264321
With any luck someone will name it and sell it.
Dupont makes something called "NAFION" I ran across in my travels. I get the impression it's relevant I just don't know where or how.
But what is being done now helps validate what you are doing, the world is just playing catch-up.
Tinker ;)
P.S.
Have you ever considered using a potentiometer to vary the voltage/amps to the anode for continuous regeneration of the anode?
Once it is sorted out you could control it with a fixed resistor once the Electrolizer is is stable.
Thanks Tinker,
beautiful stuff!
Hans von Lieven
Hans what RR is doing is well worth my time and effort to support his work where I can, I think he has a good idea and has shown the fortitude to do the work required to find out.
The downside is that my words or information could cause more problems than they solve. But I will provide information to be accepted or rejected without penalty or recriminations, I wish him well for all of us.
Thanks for the words.
Tinker
Hi Tinker,
Thanks very much for the information. The sciencedaily article, of course, didn't reveal anything since they are keeping it secret, but the other article was very interesting. I am sitting here thinking to myself that we have all these big budget companies and organizations trying to find a cheaper fuel cell alternative, and here I am thinking about using graphite pencil refills in an electrolyte solution that contains silver colloids. It is probably good for a laugh.
I think I will hold off doing any research on the fuel cell aspect right now, and just use existing technology. I don't want to get off on a tangent that is so far off what I really want to try and develop that I waste a great deal of time and effort on something that they have been working on for over three decades. My time is worth money too. enough that I would rather put the effort in designing the hydrogen reactor rather than a fuel cell project. Even though platinum is expensive, it seems to be the most explored, reliable, and stable technology that exists today. So there is where I will put my effort as far as the fuel cell aspect of the project goes, and I will concentrate on the hydrogen reactor development.
Also, I have a small potentiometer that I purchased a while back for this project. I haven't used it because I am trying to zap the zinc regeneration with everything I can sacrifice right now and still keep the fan running. So I haven't had to try to limit it, BUT--- along those lines consider this:
When the regeneration voltage was running around 0.2-0.4 volts the first time, I developed zincates in the zinc side of the reactor that eventually killed the reaction, but the tungsten/carbide side of the reactor was clean. This time I had the regeneration voltage over 0.8 volts running constant and the zinc side of the reactor stayed clean, but now I am getting precipitate on the tungsten/carbide side. So maybe the ideal voltage is somewhere between the two? I don't know for sure. This needs to be explored and experimented with.
As an update the reactor has been running over 165 hours now; remains steady on output of 0.700volts for the fan and 0.835volts for regeneration. I've added water to it once and will add more probably tomorrow or the day after. So it is running steady and true. The solution just doesn't look as pretty on the tungsten/carbide side anymore.
Thanks for all your ideas, and thanks for your interest everyone.
From Keely
http://www.physorg.com/news113057397.html
Tinker
QuoteAs an update the reactor has been running over 165 hours now; remains steady on output of 0.700volts for the fan and 0.835volts for regeneration. I've added water to it once and will add more probably tomorrow or the day after. So it is running steady and true. The solution just doesn't look as pretty on the tungsten/carbide side anymore.
Hey RR,
Can I just ask, are you using purely distilled water for your reactor?
Seems a silly question, but just wondered if the tungsten electrode was perhaps attracting impurities from the water...
Or even impurities dissolved in your 'distilled?' water from the components (i.e. less than 99% clean?)
Just thoughts :)
NssB
A small edit:
Idea: some of the energy could be used to power a small water pump very slowly. Solution pumped out of reaction chamber and 'filtered' back in with gravity assistance?
Again, just thoughts.....I don't have any formal qualifications in any of these fields. just an over active imagination :)
Hi NssB,
The water I am using is deionized water from my reverse osmosis system at home. I honestly don't know what the yellowish precipitate is, but it doesn't seem to be hurting the reactor output so far. The reactor has been continuously going for 180 hours now and has the following numbers:
Fan: Voltage: 0.712 @ 50mA
Regeneration: Voltage: 0.858 @ 4.5mA
This gives me 35.6mW(Fan)-3.8mW(regeneration)=31.8mW overunity.
thats: 31.8
------- X100= 89% overunity.
35.6
This means that only about 11% of the total output is being used to regenerate the zinc.
Considering that fuel cells are only about 50% efficient, this is good for comparison of the potential.
These numbers are very small and almost laughable; but they have been very consistant throughout the running time. I can boost the output of this system by enlarging the reactor and installing more tungsten/carbide electrodes. For a first prototype, I think it is doing its job well.
As far as your pump idea, I am hoping that once I gain experience maintaining this system that there should be no need to filter anything out. It should stay clear as long as possible.
Thanks everyone for your patience while I have been learning how to build and operate this system. I must say it has been quite an interesting educational experience so far.
Well done on the uptime. Have you any idea how long some of the best battery's could last given the same energy requirements?
I agree with you though, filtration is just an additional factor that you could do without. I guess we need to find out what the precipitate is before we can jump the gun. I sincerely hope it is anomalous and not a by-product of your main reactants. Or better yet, something that can be controlled by adjustment of voltage/current ratio's.
Lots to think about, keep fighting the good fight my man.
NssB
Quote from: NssB on November 01, 2007, 09:29:10 PM
Well done on the uptime. Have you any idea how long some of the best battery's could last given the same energy requirements?
INssB
No idea NssB. Anybody know how to calculate this?
This is just a small prototype anyway. It doesn't really fully represent what this technology is capable of.
Quote from: hansvonlieven on October 31, 2007, 03:26:16 PM
Alternatively you can buy 1 foot of platinum coated nickel wire from http://sci-toys.com/ for ten dollars (which I think is a bit dear) but perhaps this will do the job.
Hans von Lieven
Thank you very much Hans. I used this to purchase the wire.
I appreciate the help!!!!!!
Past the 200 Hour Mark. It keeps going and going.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUoEGsKDKxA
Personally, I DO like the music.
awsome, can someone make a summary topic, it's hard to look through all these pages.
Hi Buzneg,
This project has gone through many stages of development, and I guess I don't realize how much it has changed. Give me a few days and I will complile my work and post it as a PDF file.
In my mind this system is already obsolete as I have many ideas on design changes, but I will take a breather and put some effort into posting my present and latest apparatus design, materials, and procedures. I won't be doing too much until my platinum coated wires arrive anyway. Right now I am in the process of thought-development. I am trying to decide the correct new reactor design for future experiments.
Sorry for the frustration I am causing, but sometimes I just keep running and running and don't look back.
Thanks for your interest and support.
Hei ResinRat2 ,
today i read a article in the german technology review about water elektrolysis through sunlight , they used titandisilicid pouder as katalysator ,the process works witout elektricity just only sunlight, i know that your system works on a different basis , but who knows maybe it will make it more effectic to use titandisilcilid shoud be a thougt worth . the article was in the Angewandte Chemie Vol 119 S 7917-7921 , Autor Martin Demuth ,
If you are interested I can post the article as pdf , but its in german , iam following your work since a while and ist looks very interesting so keep going
Micha
G'day Micha,
If the article is not too big, would you please be so kind and post it here. Many of us here speak German.
Tach Micha,
Bitte sei so freundlich und post den Artikel hier, falls er nicht zu umfangreich ist. Viele von uns lesen deutsch.
Danke
Hans von Lieven
Gents,
The patent Stefan has posted at the beginning of this thread is not a patent. While it has been granted, it is just another monumental proof of ultimate ineptitude and incompetence in the US patent office. Which is as we in a developed world all know only to well, legendary for the sheer stupidity.
Here's why: patents must describe a novel method or apparatus that is NOT apparent from the previous art. This patent describes a piezoelectric effect which is merely applied to a water solution, with intent to produce gasses from water.
Which part here is NEW and NOT apparent to most of us? Using exotic materials such as tungsten carbide does not necessarily represent a novelty as the authors themselves confirm that it is known to have catalythic and conductive properties.
Furthermore, authors also admit in their patent (not a good sign for the patented method) that there are metals consumed in the process, which is contrary to the suggestion by the patent itself, and they admitt also that they believe that these metals consumed may be recoverable in a reverse electric process. Believing is implied ignorance, and that suggest that they did not recover them in their experiments, which in turn invalidates the patent as well.
Snake water anyone? It's cheap and good for you. You must believe. Knowledge is bad for business.
Here is the Article in shortform from November Technologie Review Germany, The whole Article is in the Angewandte Chemie ,
Hallo Hans hier der Article .
Gru?
Micha
Quote from: Dr. Tesla on November 03, 2007, 06:27:46 PM
Here's why: patents must describe a novel method or apparatus that is NOT apparent from the previous art. This patent describes a piezoelectric effect which is merely applied to a water solution, with intent to produce gasses from water.
Which part here is NEW and NOT apparent to most of us? Using exotic materials such as tungsten carbide does not necessarily represent a novelty as the authors themselves confirm that it is known to have catalythic and conductive properties.
Snake water anyone? It's cheap and good for you. You must believe. Knowledge is bad for business.
Please read from AirGen's own website the NOVEL aspect of the technology:
http://www.airgencorp.com/images/AirGen_Presentation_NHA_2007.pdf
By the way, this not novel system just past 245 hours continuous running and hydrogen production without input of power or extra materials (except water) as of 10:45PM US Central Time.
RR
"By the way, this not novel system just past 245 hours continuous running and hydrogen production without input of power or materials (except water)".
No doubt your water loss is from evaporation due to the need to control pressures in the reactor vessel ie your vertical tube solution (I know you know this).
Is this constant pressure release or does it vary?
If it's a variable pressure issue, a party balloon on the end of your vertical vent tube might provide some insight into achieving a no maintenance closed system.
You said you are contemplating your next rendition of your replication. If needed depending on the results of the platinum coil results you might consider using your metal gas ports as a conductor to your anodes and electrodes through the case rather than risking additional work and potental issues.
I am a true believer in the kiss principal
I had dedicated this weekend to searching through this thread and cut and pasting some sort of synopsis for myself and others.
No doubt you can and will do it better.
Be Well and thank you
Tinker
Hi Tinker,
Here are some rough sketches of my idea for future designs.
The gases will go into a electrolyte filled container. At the top is the platinum coated wires that take the gases and produce current.
The pressure will be regulated by the liquid level going up and down as needed. The gases will be absorbed by the platinum and produce electricity.
The chambers are separate by joined by the openings (or maybe just one opening) at the bottom so electrolytes can pass through.
Rough sketch but I think you can visualize what I am thinking.
The Rough Sketches:
Hi Everyone,
Due to many attacks and abuses on my character because of my crummy video postings I have been finally forced to fork up some cash (from the hydrogen research account, lol) to purchase a new camera to take videos with.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p_POzKoGr0
Latest posting on youtube at 250 hours continuous operation. You can finally put my cracky voice to a person.
Thanks for your interest and motivation to get a better camera!!!!!!!
Well done RR. ;)
You've mentioned how much current is required for the regenerating electrode (~ 5mA), but I am curious how much current is circulating through the Hydrogen generating Zinc electrode? I did read the entire thread, but can't remember if you measured and posted this also.
All you need now is a low power circuit to perform the electrode switching for you. Knowing the current requirements of both Zinc electrodes in operation would be helpful.
Cheers,
Darren
Quote from: z_p_e on November 04, 2007, 09:12:35 AM
Well done RR. ;)
You've mentioned how much current is required for the regenerating electrode (~ 5mA), but I am curious how much current is circulating through the Hydrogen generating Zinc electrode? Cheers,
Darren
Hi Darren,
I just measured it. 0.275Volts @59.8mA flowing during the hydrogen generation between the tungsten/carbide electrodes and the zinc electrode.
The surface of the electrodes are very cold. Drawing energy from the ambient air temperature.
G'day Dave and all,
Good job with the video. Thanks Dave.
Hans von Lieven
mramos wrote:
Hey Dave,
So you are still having to manually switch things (every 12 hours)? Down to two wires. That is a good thing. But still it will take power to switch them as you know. Also the clouding, is that due to sometimes he needs 10 hours and other times it needs 12 on the switch?
Mike! Old Buddy! Good to read from you again. I am still trying to work out the ideal amount of time that is needed to do the switching. When I was doing once/24 hours that is when the "powder" type precipitate started to appear on the inside of the plexiglas. I am now trying once/12 hours. We'll see what happens now. This is all unkown territory for me so all I can do is record what I am doing and what happens.
You have some a long way with the mechanical skills for sure..
Nah, I still suck at this stuff. It takes me 10 times as long as anybody else I know just to do simple things. Just ask my wife, she would be glad to complain about that, lol. I love her more than life itself!!!!!!!!!! That is no joke!!!!!!!!
Best of luck as always. Funny hearing a youtube video audio track of a voice I know. :)
How the heck does Linnard make the little cells that have all that power?? But again his videos are short.
He's using acid reactions, this I am sure of. I have not experimented with them but I would bet they are much, much, more reactive than what I am using. Probably acid-iron type reactions. That would be my guess.
Thanks for posting buddy. Don't stay a stranger. I still need to send you one when the bugs are finally worked out. LOL!!!
Dave.
Thanks for the current measurement.
I believe a switching circuit could be designed, but there might not be much if anything left over to run your fan.
Have you tried maxing out the load on the fuel cell to see what it can supply in terms of current?
The biggest challenge to creating an automatic switching circuit would be generating a several volt/low current supply from such a low starting voltage.
Dave,
One idea that just came to me was to use a second small DC motor driven by your fan motor. Use a higher voltage motor in "generator mode" to create the higher voltage/lower current supply needed to supply the switching circuitry.
We'd be shooting for about a 5VDC output from this little generator.
Just an idea.
Darren
Quote from: z_p_e on November 05, 2007, 11:34:37 PM
Have you tried maxing out the load on the fuel cell to see what it can supply in terms of current?
The biggest challenge to creating an automatic switching circuit would be generating a several volt/low current supply from such a low starting voltage.
No Darren, I have not tried maxing out the fan driving fuel cell yet. I was going to stop at Radio Shack over the weekend to pick up a few LEDs but my wife had other plans (lol) and projects (lol) that conflicted with my best laid plans.
I will get to this as soon as I can.
Quote from: z_p_e on November 05, 2007, 11:34:37 PM
The biggest challenge to creating an automatic switching circuit would be generating a several volt/low current supply from such a low starting voltage.
Darren,
I think the switching circuit will be more realistic once this model is scaled up to a larger size and there is a larger cushion of power output to play with. This would be something I would need help with anyway, I have no idea how to set up a simple switching circuit or how to design and power it off the fuel cell. Also, the larger unit would have a larger fuel cell or several fuel cells to run off of.
Thanks for your willingness to help. I appreciate any ideas you have.
Dave(RR2)
Hi Dave.
I tend to agree with you that it might be better to wait until the unit is scaled up to allow more voltage and or current to work with.
What you have now really is a solid proof of concept to base your up-scaled models on. It's a huge first step.
I do have a couple things in mind that should work well for the electrode switching. The first step is to acquire at least 5 Volts (AC or DC) to work with as start. So that either has to come directly from the fuel cell or cells, or via some small generator means I mentioned earlier.
Cheers,
Darren
Hey Dave
I know you are trying to be thrifty with your power output, But.
This, http://www.norkro.com/ and a cam and reed switch/s might work for anode switching.
And a couple of questions? Any chance that your Electrolite is degraded due to lack of circulation or dead zones between the chambers. Leaving a gap under the divider between chambers (no holes, more surface area, below the bubbles) as long as the divider extends below the bottom of the electrodes/anodes help?
Short answers just fine, looking forward to your synopsis and update. Movies a real improvement thanks.
Tinker
RR
Based on my travels with fuel cells you might want to consider this as your Membrane. http://www.cleanfuelcellenergy.com/membrane.html
Based On what I have read this is what keeps the O2 from negation of the power production.
Why does the membrane need to be vertical? VS horizontal in your rendering? on the H2 side? As long as you are in a Gas environment it doesn't matter. Save some vertical space.
Feel free form your own opinion
I do a lot of reading but lack expertise.
That said I think you are on to something.
Thanks.
Tinker
Tinker wrote:
This, http://www.norkro.com/ and a cam and reed switch/s might work for anode switching.
Thanks Tinker. I will be looking at many possible ways to do the switching. I will consider this one as will once I see what kind of unit output I will have.
And a couple of questions? Any chance that your Electrolite is degraded due to lack of circulation or dead zones between the chambers.
This is entirely possible. I have not had a unit running this long before, and everything that happens here is unexplored territory. All I can do right now is keep it going and make observations at what happens. This run may die as well, but I will learn from it no matter what happens so the next stage has a better chance of success. R & D is always a learning experience.
Leaving a gap under the divider between chambers (no holes, more surface area, below the bubbles) as long as the divider extends below the bottom of the electrodes/anodes help?
I had problems with oxygen bubbles going down and over to the next chamber when the electrolyte was more concentrated and viscous in previous experiments. That is why it was designed as such. It could be that circulation is important and this is something I will be keeping in mind as future experiments emerge. I think the idea of a semi-permiable membrane would help here. Even something as simple as a very thickly woven cloth would keep bubbles from crossing chambers and still allow electrolytes to pass. Everything is being re-evaluated as this research proceeds. I appreciate your input.
Latest update on youtube at 310 hours: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9xjtJFZT_s
Hi Everyone,
I received my platinum-coated nickel wire today. Six feet of it. So I will be doing experiments with it to see if I can get a current going in this system.
My reactor continues to run, but I am starting to notice that the fan stops for a few seconds every so often, then starts up again quickly. Almost like there is a blockage somewhere in the tubes, or in the reactor around the outlet tubes. Not sure. It is hard to see inside the reactor with all the "film" on the plexiglas sides. I noticed there is residue on the electrodes too, and the zinc is starting to have it as well. Not good news, but I continue to suspect that an increased hydrogen output would aid in the regeneration, and the keeping of the entire cell clean.
If this one slows down much, then I will stop it and examine the inside of the reactor and the surface of the zinc and tung/carbide electrodes. I want to see what is really going on.
Maybe I need to vary the switching of the electrode regeneration times, or perhaps extend regeneration times. I am not sure at this point. So far it has run 15 days and is on its 16th day running right now.
I will keep you posted on progress and observations. I am also working on the compliation of my work so far.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
As I visually examine the reactor, what I can see is that the gases are getting "caught" by rough horizontal areas caused by the residue that has formed on many of the electrodes. I think this is a good indication that a vertical electrode position needs to be built into the next reactor. This would prevent the gases from getting caught and needing to build up in areas before they suddenly release. That also may be why the fan running is getting more erratic. I am going to try shifting the reactor position so it is vertical in nature, just to see what happens.
Might as well, can't hurt anything anyway.
Today I will begin my experiments on the platinum wire and see what kind of output results I can get.
Sixteen days continuous gas output so far.
Thanks for your interest.
Nope, the present reactor can't be turned sideways, that would interfere with the tungsten/carbide electrode that is being used with the regeneration. It needs to run as is.
Thanks for your interest.
Hi All,
I decided to base my platinum wire experiments off the web page: http://sci-toys.com/scitoys/scitoys/echem/fuel_cell/fuel_cell.html
They have a this link to how to build a fuel cell and it shows the platinum wire wound up. This is what I did. I placed one wound wire about an inch into the hydrogen side of the reactor, and the other wire into the oxygen side. The voltage climbed to about 0.395 volts over a 5 minute period. I am not sure if it reacting with the hydrogen and oxygen or with the electrolytes or all of them.
I am going to build an add on that will allow me to route the hydrogen gas into a separate container and allow me to do my experiments in deionized water. That should answer many questions.
In the mean time the reactor is still running. I switched the fan to the first fuel cell which is closer to the reactor and it shot up to 0.740 volts. The regeneration is on the second fuel cell since this requires only about a tenth of the total of the fan. So I am running the fan constant and regenerating again.
I think if I had not removed three of the tungsten/carbide electrodes from previous runs to install the smaller electrode I would have had a much better output of hydrogen. The problem is I drilled the hole for the small regeneration electrode a bit too low so I had to remove those three tungsten/carbide electrodes to get everything to fit. Shoulda, coulda, woulda. I am learning as I go, and mistakes are part of it.
Over 400 hours constant running time on the reactor. It doesn't look as pretty as when I started but it is still going.
Future platinum experiments are planned.
Thanks for your interest.
Sweeeeet. So if this one unit works, we should scale it up to many, and then gas problem solved! Even if it can't run forever, it's not like we'll drive for 400 hours at a time ;) This is really great stuff. It may not be perfect, it may pour out an enormous amount of hydrogen, but it should suffice, with some 'tweaking'
Hi Brian,
Past 450 hours now, still bubbling off gases, regenerating; running the fan. This thing is amazing. I am putting the finishing touches on my Experiment Report:
"An Extended Time Operational Study of a Hydrogen Electricity Generator Based Off a Modification of the Linnard Griffin Electrolysis Patent."
This unit did its job, and has shown the concept viable. I am in the process of doing a scale-up. The design has changed many times in my sketches and thoughts; but I have learned a great deal about operating and maintaining this system.
I will also put into the report future improvements and ideas.
Thanks for everyone's patience.
********
Final First Draft now Posted
***************
Sorry about that everyone, silly me laid awake all night listening to every sound.
I will leave the rough draft posted and finish the report in the next day or so. Any suggestions please post or PM me. I appreciate any critique forthcoming from anyone.
Thanks ahead of time for your ideas and comments.
Godspeed 'ResinRat2'.
I am reading your posts and am quite sad I cannot help out. I am very enthusiastic about it all but havent the foggiest really of how to do it and what to get and all that.
Come next summer you might be sleeping next to the fan quite often.
Take care and God bless.
Hey RR,
I read over your initial report and I have to say, its really quite good. I especially like the fact that it is mainly in 'layman's' terms.
This will be especially helpful for those of us who are willing to replicate and verify the technology thus far.
Actually, given your level of success, I'm quite surprised this has not been attempted by a horde of other builders to date. Maybe this will be the catalyst. *pun intended* ;)
I'm so very much looking forward to the upscale model.
Very best of luck. And for the love of all that is good and true.....get some sleep :)
Avid follower,
NssB
It may not be efficient, but I was thinking of incorporating this design into a run-the-engine-directly setup. I don't know if I'm going to have the money to buy fuel cells, they are simply too expensive (bigger ones I mean). If we can get a few liters a minute out of a few stacks of these then I think it might work.
Quote from: Super God on November 12, 2007, 06:52:27 PM
If we can get a few liters a minute out of a few stacks of these then I think it might work.
Hi Brian,
I'm sure that can be accomplished. It is going to take some development though.
My reactor passed 475 hours operating time of continuous hydrogen production. The performance has deteriorated over the last couple of days. I had the tungsten/carbide hydrogen production and regeneration electrodes crossed in the reactor for over 30 hours, and it really damaged the performance. Couldn't really notice it until I looked close. Now I can only run the fan alone or the regeneration alone. I can no longer do both at the same time. The fan is still running now and the reactor is still putting out several bubbles per second. Just not as well as before.
I think I will post the final video of this experiment and stop it soon. I have achieved what I wanted and proved the viability of this system. I just need to finish examining my notes and what exactly happened throughout this run. It actually worked better than I thought it would because I had to learn by trial and error. I just need to be sure there are no short-outs between the electrodes. It's alright because I will be scaling up anyway. I believe the performance of this small reactor justifies it.
So we will officially end it at 20 days constant hydrogen production. I am pleased.
Video post just as soon as the camera battery recharges.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
You have come a long ways RR, I just pop in every so often to see how you are doing. I am very glad you have stuck with it as you have gained a lot of ground in the last month or so. When you try and upgrade to a larger unit I am sure you will need to learn all over again, but you will have a lot better idea on what not to do.
Most people do not stick with what they set out to do, but you are one person who has stuck to what they first set out to do, God bless you RR. Keep up the good work, we are behind you all the way.
Trump
Thanks for the encouragement guys,
Latest video on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHu3UzEoEjY
Update and observations on this experiment. This will tie into my lab report when I finish the details on that as well.
Next: Scale up. I want some GOOD gas production.
Thank you all very much for your interest and support.
Dave (RR2)
Excellent work!!!
thanks for sharing it with us!
mikeins
Nice job! Now that I see that this is our best shot at breaking from the oil monopoly, I'd like to try to make one as well! I finally have a job (and money) so I can actually build something! Yes! Dave, perhaps we can chat sometime? I'd like to start a replication while you start your scaling up project. I need to find your drawing of your setup, then it's onward and upward. My car gets crappy gas mileage as it is and I'd love to get rid of it completely, or almost completely. Good luck with your scaling up project!!
-Brian
Hi RR, just wondered what results you have had with the platinum coated wire method, compared to the fuel cell. The wire method seems very simple.. Also, do you think the reactor would benifit from from being in the vertical position as opposed to horrizontal? That way, there seems less surface area for stuff to settle on the rods i guess.
Motofox wrote:
Hi RR, just wondered what results you have had with the platinum coated wire method, compared to the fuel cell. The wire method seems very simple.. Hi Motofox, I did one experiment where I inserted a coiled wire into the hydrogen side of the reactor and another coiled wire into the oxygen side as the reactor was running. Over a period of 5 minutes the voltage climbed to 0.395 volts. That is the only experiment I did, but I plan on doing more in the future. I still need to finish my lab report. Ahh, so much to do, not enough help lol! Like I said before, I need a lab and some technicians. LOL!! Also, do you think the reactor would benifit from from being in the vertical position as opposed to horrizontal? That way, there seems less surface area for stuff to settle on the rods i guess. I agree with you 100%. From what I saw with this reactor I want the tungsten/carbide rods in the vertical position. No sense giving the precipitate a chance to settle and choke off any of the reaction surface on the rods. I plan on doing it that way in the future.
Thanks for your input and interest.
Quote from: mramos on November 13, 2007, 08:20:04 PM
Are you still manually switching the power or did you work that out?
Yes, still manual; but once the larger unit is operating I will have more output to play with and then maybe the switching can be automated.
What are you talking about Mike?
He is already getting more out than in. He just wants a little more :-)
Hans
Is it not true to say, that any system of this kind can only ever be 100% efficient. Assuming this experiment was 100% efficient, you would be able to convert 100% of the 'ambient energy' consumed into work/re-gen. I believe this is RR's goal(or as close as possible).
As much as I'd like to believe it, I do not see how we can ever unbalance the following laymans equation in our favour:
Ambient Energy + Manual Effort = Power Out
And by 'manual effort' I mean, electricity....batteries.....pre-coiled spring etc etc.
Ambient Energy being ....temperature differential....ZPE..........etc
NssB
How much energy does it take to make a gallon of gasoline? It must first be located, (labor, time, technology), then extracted with large oil rigs. Then it must be transported, then refined in huge oil distillation (processing) units. Then it must be stored and transported as well.
All this human time, labor, technology, and materials. It developed over time, and this process just needs to be developed as well.
Water is unlimited on our planet. Over 70% of the planet is covered with it. In the future we may not even need to use deionized water. Sunlight is unlimited as well. I look at it in terms of supply. The water is not consumed and lost. It is reclaimed. The sunlight gives everything on this planet life. Without it we would not be here. Think hard about this. Is oil unlimited in supply? Once burned, can it be reclaimed?
This technology is in its infancy. You need to see past the trees that block your view. Open your eyes and mind and realize what we have here. We will never get more energy than the sunlight that falls on the earth. True. So what? The sun should be around a few billions of years anyway. I think we can deal with that fine.
Hi everyone. Sorry for butting in but instead of working trough 60 pages of posts I'd just like to ask one question:
I read about electrodes being used in a reactor. The topic title however is "hydrogen on demand WITHOUT ELECTRICITY".
If we are not using electricity at all, then where does mramos get his amps?
Or are we actually using electricity but do caloric calculations show that this is a lot less energy than the amount of energy contained in the hydrogen that is produced?
Quote from: Koen1 on November 14, 2007, 06:50:18 AM
If we are not using electricity at all, then where does mramos get his amps?
mramos is talking about his own research into conventional type electrolysis systems. He wasn't talking about this (Linnard Griffin Electrolysis) system. This system uses no outside electrical input at all.
Ah ok thanks for clarifying.
It seems to happen quite a bit on this forum that people stray off the topic yet stay in the thread and after a while the thread is full of stuff that is not directly related to the actual topic....
Can someone do a quick recap on the actual hydrogen production without electrical input idea?
Or perhaps just point out on what pages this info is posted in this thread? I don't really have time to read through all 60 pages...
Is this actually a viable technology and how much hydrogen can it produce?
Quote from: Koen1 on November 14, 2007, 11:34:33 AM
Can someone do a quick recap on the actual hydrogen production without electrical input idea?
Hi Koen 1,
Give me a little bit of time and I will have my experiment report completed. It will have the most comprehesive explaination of this technology so far.
I have some very interesting photos from the reactor run. It is of the electrodes and I want to point out a few things. Below is the set up with the fan. Notice the fuel cell that does the regeneration is first and the fan second. This gave priority to the regeneration and ran the fan off the excess (overunity) energy drawn from the ambient air temperature.
The fan was actually moving at high speed but the camera stopped it in a perfect shot. Good Camera.
Next, here are the pictures of the electrodes after 20 days running. Notice the two on the right, they are the zinc. You can see the regenerated material on the surface. Some if it looks zincated, but the voltage was dropped for those 30 hours when it was shorted out so I wouldn't be surprised at a bit of zincate formation. Overall it looks great.
Now notice the added two zinc electrodes on the right. These two are from a previous experiment that ran overnight without electrical zinc regeneration. Notice they are only slightly larger than the two zinc electrodes next to them from this last reactor run. This shows that the regeneration was going on. These zinc electrodes would have been long gone after 20 days if there had not been regeneration going on from the fuel cells. This indicates it was regenerating as I expected.
Now notice the two electrodes below. These are the small tungsten (thoriated) electrode (used for regeneration) and a larger tungsten/carbide electrode from the tungsten/carbide electrode group of 10 electrodes that produced the hydrogen. Notice the precipitate on the surface. I believe this was the result of the shorting of these electrodes. It allowed the precipitate to form.
The importance of these shots is to show that the tungsten/carbide electrodes were being choked off by the precipitate. The next reactor will avoid the shorting of the electrodes and also a verticle position will keep them from being choked off by any precipitate that might form.
Now that I finally have the rest of my data I can finish my report.
Thanks for your interest.
Sorry everyone,
I tried to post my final report on the experiment 5 times. It won't let me post it.
Stefan, HELP.
Maybe I can email to you and you can post it?
Ok, will be patient. ;)
thanks for actually making such a report. Can't wait to read it!
nice pic by the way :)
I guess the report was too big to post. I pasted quite a few of the pictures in it so the size grew quite a bit.
I emailed it to Stefan to see if he can post it. I guess I am too much of a windbag.
Thanks for your interest.
That's not a bad thing ;)
Final Report in pdf format:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3633.msg60242.html#msg60242
Final Report in pdf format:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3633.msg60242.html#msg60242
:D :D Well, that was one way to do it. :D :D
Please everyone, send me a PM or post here on any suggestions on improvement to the first draft, or clarifications
Thank you all in advance for your suggestions and criticisms.
Hi Everyone,
Question on youtube for anyone who knows.
This is ongoing research. I want to install the platinum wires directly in the hydrogen reactor to produce a current. I wrapped the platinum wires around the tungsten/carbide rod and started producing hydrogen. I took the other platinum wire and touched it to the liquid surface. So I have a fuel cell. Hydrogen from the T/C, oxygen from the air, and Sodium Hydroxide electrolyte solution.
I get 1.3 volts and only 0.11mA output.
How do I jack up the milliamps? Anybody know?
********** Deleted Video. I think I know what I need to do. ********************
Thanks in advance for your help.
G'day Dave,
As far as I know, if you want higher voltage, increase the number of cells, if you want higher amperage increase the surface area of your electrodes, all other things being equal.
Hans von Lieven
Suggest making a pipe out of platinum plated mesh and wrap it around your electrodes.
So you are saying I just need more wire. That would probably make sense.
Thanks Hans
G'day Dave,
You would be far better off to make your electrodes up from brass mesh and get it electroplated, more bang for buck!
Hans
Thanks Hans
I agree, I need to look in the direction of a using a mesh configuration. This was just a quick experiment to show the possible potential of a simple setup.
Maybe if the oxygen and hydrogen was channeled through dense coils of the wire, Like a bottle of coke, when all the gas rises to the neck of the bottle. If the coils of wire where in this neck maybe it would increase the power. If this worked, it would go well with the vertical cell design.
I like the concept motofox,
Maybe an electrolyte filled tube going upward with platinum coated mesh all the way up and filling the tube, Maybe a variation on that idea.
Thanks very much
Dave (RR2),
Here's a cheap-o way to make a fuel cell that I've tried with impressive results. I ran across this Vided about 6 months ago
Make your own Fuel cell (making Alkaline Fuel Cell cheaply) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cQg0Ur9Cko&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cQg0Ur9Cko&NR=1)
Materials needed to make Alkaline Fuel Cell
Plexiglas Glass for housing
Inner tube for gasket
Plexiglases
Nickel pieces for electrodes
Fine SS Wire mesh as fine as possible SS wire mesh
Filter paper
cut pieces of pipe heads for gas ports
Electrolyte is sodium hydroxide, (1molar NaOH)
Platinize your electrodes with a solution of
Hexachloroplatinate (H2PtCl x H2O)
about 50$ for a gram, last a long time
Regards,
Walterj
Hi Walter,
I posted this link before for the fuel cell. The only problem was I couldn't buy the hexachloroplatinate. It is classified in the United States as a hazardous substance and therefore they only sell it to companies or corporations that qualify to handle such substances.
Now I work with dangerous chemicals everyday, so no problem for me, but my company would not allow me to order it through them because they would be liable if I was injured.
So the video is great, but it does me no good. Only for schools and companies that want to do that type of research.
This video you posted a link to is actually the model I am using to put platinum wires into the reactor directly. It is really based off the same design. The reactor is filled with electrolyte (just like their fuel cell) it separates the hydrogen and oxygen, and the ions can pass through the chambers. So you see, it is the same idea except it is built right into the reactor. I just need to platinize a mesh and Hans suggested this earlier, so I do appreciate all the suggestions. One of them will eventually get this project successfully completed.
Thanks for your interest.
Anyone have any idea how to strip the carbon off the of the platinum coated beads found in used automotive Catalytic converters?
They are round and many are large enough to drill a hole through, they can then be mounted like a Sishkabob using conductor rod and then they (Rods/beads) can be stacked creating a lot of surface area (this is good) to create a good fuel cell.
This is more work than fine screen or wire but could be more productive than the previous, but not as good as nanotubes.
"Just another hairbrained idea"
No need to respond unless someone has a solution to the cleaning off of the carbon issue.
Tinker
Quote from: Tinker on November 18, 2007, 02:58:57 AM
No need to respond unless someone has a solution to the cleaning off of the carbon issue.
Tinker
Perhaps the following would do....
http://www.prontoparts.co.uk/cataclean.htm
NssB
Quote from: Tinker on November 18, 2007, 02:58:57 AM
Anyone have any idea how to strip the carbon off the of the platinum coated beads found in used automotive Catalytic converters?
They are round and many are large enough to drill a hole through, they can then be mounted like a Sishkabob using conductor rod and then they (Rods/beads) can be stacked creating a lot of surface area (this is good) to create a good fuel cell.
This is more work than fine screen or wire but could be more productive than the previous, but not as good as nanotubes.
"Just another hairbrained idea"
No need to respond unless someone has a solution to the cleaning off of the carbon issue.
Tinker
Try hydrofluoric acid, (used for etching glass) very dangerous stuff. It will dissolve organic material, silica and oxides but does not attack the metal, DO NOT BREATHE THE FUMES - LETHAL !!!
Hans von Lieven
QuoteTry hydrofluoric acid, (used for etching glass) very dangerous stuff. It will dissolve organic material, silica and oxides but does not attack the metal, DO NOT BREATHE THE FUMES - LETHAL !!!
I think giving this sort of advice without 'proper guidelines' should be seriously reconsidered if said guidelines are not known and/or cannot be referenced. Yes it is up to people to do their own research, but when you are talking about dealing with potentially 'Lethal' substances, you cannot account for the level of common sense among the target audience.
NssB
Thanks Hans
NssB your caution is noted, here most of us rely upon the quality of our postings to judge a persons ability's and act accordingly.
Grammar and spelling exempted :)
Tinker
I like the idea of the brass electroplated mesh. It seems to be the best solution so far.
@NssB,
What more do you expect me to do, I told him the stuff is dangerous and some of the things it does.
If he wants to work with it he will check it out, apart from the fact you do not purchase it at the Woolworth delicatessen counter. He will get proper warnings about how to handle it when he gets the stuff and he will probably have to sign a form saying he understands the dangers.
What would you want me to do? Not mention it in the first place??
Political correctness gone mad.
Hans von Lieven
@Hans
lol....not quite PC gone mad, and perhaps I was a bit harsh. I guess I'm just thinking about the folk with parents who keep dangerous chemicals in the shed for a rainy day :P
"Hydro...blah de blah.....wait a minute.....that bottle dad has......hmmm.........lets go see what it can do to these carbonised...."
OK, its unlikely.....but ya know :)
NssB
OK boys let's all kiss and make-up :D ;D lol.
Looking over the options so far I think Hans' idea of electroplating a brass mesh is probably the safest to do.
I think I will go in this direction unless something better pops up.
Thanks for your opinions everyone.
Quote from: hansvonlieven on November 16, 2007, 10:49:34 PM
G'day Dave,
You would be far better off to make your electrodes up from brass mesh and get it electroplated, more bang for buck!
Hans
How can we avoid the platinum plating ?
It is very expensive.
Has anyone tried graphite beads with "sucked in" colloidal silver ?
You could pour graphite beads into colloidal silver water and the beads
will get "coated" a bit with silver atoms.
Depends which concentration your colloidal silver water has.
Use a colloidal silver electrolyser as used in health application and
let it run for at least 1 hour, then you have really good amount of silver atoms.
If you then pour graphite beads into the colloidal silver water, the silver atoms
will clogg onto the high surface area of the graphite beads and when
H2 gas enter this area it will be split up into ions.
This should then be able to split the H2 and O2 gas into
conducting and voltage generating H3O+ and OH- ions
and charge up the graphite beads and graphite rods.
Surely you need 2 containers with graphite beads,
one for the H2 and one for the O2 gas and
also need an electrolyte like NaCl or NaOH in water dissolved.
The 2 containersmust be connected via a ions conducting bridge,
so a handkerchief of saltwater or diaphragma will do.
Then stick one graphite rod into each graphite beads container and you
have your fuel cell and voltage at the graphite rods.
Sorry, did not yet have time to test it myself.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi Stefan,
I have 500ppm colloidal silver solution.
What kind of graphite rods are you talking about. Is this something they sell in an automobile parts store, or someplace else. Perhaps you have a link on the internet I can follow to purchase them.
I could even test it in my reactor.
Thank you for your input.
Quote from: hartiberlin on November 19, 2007, 11:43:45 AM
How can we avoid the platinum plating ?
It is very expensive.
Not true Stefan,
I used o get a lot of rhodium plating done (same price as platinum) and it cost only marginally more than gold plating.
The trick is to find someone, preferably a smaller company, that is prepared to do small quantities. We are nor talking about big electrodes, say a meter long or so, that would be a problem since platinum plating is usually done by companies that plate jewellery and their tanks are not huge.
I would be surprised if it cost more than five or ten dollars an electrode if you have five or ten done at the same time. This is quite affordable especially when some people charge 10 dollars a foot for platinum plated wire.
Hans von Lieven
Hi RR2 (Dave),
I talked to www.Alfa.Com (http://www.alfa.com) to day about buying their hexachloroplatinate plating solution. They have a product number 40177 with a description
"Dihydrogen hexachloroplatinate(IV) solution, Pt 20% (cont. Pt)" http://www.alfa.com/CGI-BIN/LANSAWEB?WEBEVENT+L0E24B64190008400C032031+ALF+ENG (http://www.alfa.com/CGI-BIN/LANSAWEB?WEBEVENT+L0E24B64190008400C032031+ALF+ENG). apx $97.50 was today's price for the .5 gram solution (about 3 grams total solution).
They told me there was also a HazMat charge of either $11 (2day) or $17 (overnight-1day) from DHL as well as regular shipping fee.
The only other requirement is they only sell to a company and require payment via the company credit card.
Simple solution to a not to complex issue would be as here, I don't know about you, but here if you have a bank relationship you can open an account in a business name and fund it for a few hundred dollars and have them issue a Visa (Debit/Credit) card in that business name. Use that Card to purchase your hexachloroplatinate and be your on your way...
Regards,
Walterj
Quote from: walterj7 on November 19, 2007, 07:04:50 PM
Simple solution to a not to complex issue would be as here, I don't know about you, but here if you have a bank relationship you can open an account in a business name and fund it for a few hundred dollars and have them issue a Visa (Debit/Credit) card in that business name. Use that Card to purchase your hexachloroplatinate and be your on your way...
I am going to say no on this. Getting a business account under a non-registered bogus business name just to side-step federal hazardous material control laws doesn't sound like a good option any day of the week. In fact, it sounds like a criminal act.
NO THANKS!!!!
G'day Walter,
hexachloroplatinate plating solution is only a small part of the story. Electroplating is an art, actually quite a difficult one. To get a satisfactory coating without adhesion problems and pinholes is not as easy as it sounds. The metal has to be prepared meticulously before proper plating can take place. The chemicals required to do this are as difficult to obtain as the plating solution.
Even then, to create the properly buffered solution and to have the correct current going through is not simple either.
It is OK to do this as the science teacher suggested and it will work for a while, until the plating peels off or the electrolyte gets contaminated through the pinholes. This is not a job for amateurs, believe me.
Better to get it done by someone who knows what they are doing.
Besides, by the time you get all the stuff together you need you will be far more out of pocket than sending it to a plater in the first place.
Hans von Lieven
I think you should think first before you speak of things you know little or nothing about.
On this subject I'm something of an expert. I've been in and out of business since I was 16 years old.
Not to sure what's bogus about declaring your R&D activities a tax deductible activity (business expense et all) but it's defiantly NOT BOGUS or criminal.
A business is defined by American Heritage Dictionary as:
a NOUN:
1. 1. The occupation, work, or trade in which a person is engaged: ie: the wholesale food business.
2. A specific occupation or pursuit: the best designer in the business.
2. Commercial, industrial, or professional dealings: new systems now being used in business.
3. A commercial enterprise or establishment: bought his uncle's business.
What you and others have been doing (research and development) in the world of Hydrogen surly qualifies as Business Activities.
The income or profit component (which I assume you identify as missing) is NOT any requirement for a business.
Plenty of Business loose money regularly and sometime for years at a time. The IRS allows you to loose money for 5 years straight and still be called a for profit business. If you go the 6th year loosing money then the IRS declares you a NOT for Profit Business.
But your actives are considered Business Activities, just NOT for Profit Actives.
Point in fact (I'm pretty sure) that's how and why Dingus was forced out of doing hydrogen activities at his rental property.
In most states of the united states all you need do is declare your actives to be a business. Maybe file a DBA (Doing Business As) certificate if you call your self for business activies by any name other than your real name, like "resinrat2 R&D". But this is NOT required when you use your own name ie: David xxx Hydrogen Research.
And BTW if you did have to file a certificate to do business as and don't, all that happens is that you can not defend your self in a civil (Law suit). Your business is NOT declaired Invalid, Bogus or Deceptive etc. (check with your lawyer about legal matters before you give legal opinions). To collect money, i.e. charge for your actives you may or NOT have to obtain an occupational license as your jurisdiction requires. But this is, if required at all, would only be to engage in business with others
Also doing business interstate or over the web in most instances, with the exception of legislative restrictions (such as drugs and gambling, EPA etc) is NOT licensed or regulated inter-states. The States have Reciprocal laws allowing trade between them.
(BTW/ who wants to circumvent the HazMat laws? All you have to do is pay the $11 or $17 hazmat fee and keep an accurate log of your disposition of the materials!)
Yeah it all sounds to hard for someone who wants to change the world, yeah right!!!!...
But most importantly I resent the implication and out right accusation of dishonesty, fraud and feel pretty disgusted about the whole thing of even trying to source the material for you.
Definitely with very little respect left,
Walterj
Quote from: walterj7 on November 19, 2007, 09:21:37 PM
I think you should think first before you speak of things you know little or nothing about.
On this subject I'm something of an expert. I've been in and out of business since I was 16 years old.
Not to sure what's bogus about declaring your R&D activities a tax deductible activity (business expense et all) but it's defiantly NOT BOGUS or criminal.
A business is defined by American Heritage Dictionary as:
a NOUN:
1. 1. The occupation, work, or trade in which a person is engaged: ie: the wholesale food business.
2. A specific occupation or pursuit: the best designer in the business.
2. Commercial, industrial, or professional dealings: new systems now being used in business.
3. A commercial enterprise or establishment: bought his uncle's business.
What you and others have been doing (research and development) in the world of Hydrogen surly qualifies as Business Activities.
The income or profit component (which I assume you identify as missing) is NOT any requirement for a business.
Plenty of Business loose money regularly and sometime for years at a time. The IRS allows you to loose money for 5 years straight and still be called a for profit business. If you go the 6th year loosing money then the IRS declares you a NOT for Profit Business.
But your actives are considered Business Activities, just NOT for Profit Actives.
Point in fact (I'm pretty sure) that's how and why Dingus was forced out of doing hydrogen activities at his rental property.
In most states of the united states all you need do is declare your actives to be a business. Maybe file a DBA (Doing Business As) certificate if you call your self for business activies by any name other than your real name, like "resinrat2 R&D". But this is NOT required when you use your own name ie: David xxx Hydrogen Research.
And BTW if you did have to file a certificate to do business as and don't, all that happens is that you can not defend your self in a civil (Law suit). Your business is NOT declaired Invalid, Bogus or Deceptive etc. (check with your lawyer about legal matters before you give legal opinions). To collect money, i.e. charge for your actives you may or NOT have to obtain an occupational license as your jurisdiction requires. But this is, if required at all, would only be to engage in business with others
Also doing business interstate or over the web in most instances, with the exception of legislative restrictions (such as drugs and gambling, EPA etc) is NOT licensed or regulated inter-states. The States have Reciprocal laws allowing trade between them.
(BTW/ who wants to circumvent the HazMat laws? All you have to do is pay the $11 or $17 hazmat fee and keep an accurate log of your disposition of the materials!)
Yeah it all sounds to hard for someone who wants to change the world, yeah right!!!!...
But most importantly I resent the implication and out right accusation of dishonesty, fraud and feel pretty disgusted about the whole thing of even trying to source the material for you.
Definitely with very little respect left,
Walterj
WOW Walter,
That's a little over the top isn't it?
With NO respect left
Hans von Lieven
I'd rather fork out the 50$ and have someone professional do it, that way I'm guaranteed a good finished product in the end. Just my two cents. :D
-Brian
Quote from: walterj7 on November 19, 2007, 09:21:37 PM
I think you should think first before you speak of things you know little or nothing about.
On this subject I'm something of an expert. I've been in and out of business since I was 16 years old.
You are right, I know little or nothing about it. This is why I asked my Accountant about it, and was told to NOT do this. That is why I rejected the whole idea.
If you have no respect for me left then so be it. I am glad you are an expert on the subject. I am not, and that is why I am taking a different route.
I am just a business-ignorant lowly Senior Polymer Research Chemist. A dumb-schmuck who knows how to design, research and operate systhesis reactions. No need for any respect at all thank you very much; but business-wise I am not. So that is why I stay away from anything that sounds (to a dumb shmuck like me) shady or illegal, whether I am wrong or not.
In all honesty, it did sound illegal to me; and I was told to avoid it. Also, I don't trust ANYONE I don't know on the internet. I don't know you, and I don't know your motives. If you don't like that then fine with me.
Now, if you will excuse me, I am getting back to work.
Hi Walter, Hans and Dave,
please calm down.
I think this was just a misunderstanding between you.
Well, as the platinum is so expensive it will be good to look for
an substitute.
Graphite with the right "coating" seems to be one.
We only have to find the right coating material which
can split the H2 and O2 to H3O+ and OH- ions and charge up this
way the graphite electrodes.
Colloidal silver might be one coating material.
Here is one Ebay auction where they sell graphite rods:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8280156070
and here another one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200109704468
You must remove the copperfoil on these..
Then you put them into colloidal silver long enough
( at least an hour I would say and then let them dry.
If you would use colloidal platinum this would even be the best,
but maybe silver will also work.
Maybe we even find cheaper metals or (catalyst oxides..)
Regards, Stefan.
Maybe also pressed activated charcoal pellets might work if they
are coated in colloidal silver solution, but to get the conduction
higher you would need a really heavy colloidal silver solution.
Here is an Ebay auction of it not too expensive:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=110195784945
Put then into the center of these colloidal silver plated charcoal pellets
a graphite rod as the electrode and put the H2 and O2 gas beneath these charcoal
pellets in a NaCL- or NaOH -water solution.
Then it should split.
Study the concept of supercapacitors and you will see,
how the ions will charge up the graphite.
Instead of charcoal you could also try
Lamp black
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170145182184
as this is much more conductive than charcoal,
but it is just a fine powder and maybe it would not get coated too good
by the colloidal silver atoms.
You can try that too.
Good luck.
Regards, Stefan.
Thanks again Hans.
But after visiting Wiki I have decided that working with this stuff is well above my pay grade, and beyond my capability's on this scale.
Nssb Your comments on this subject are well founded and appreciated.
Hans offered a solution to a question and I appreciate his willingness to help and his insight/warnings.
Now I am leaning more towards commercial products as in rust remover or wheel cleaner that list the same chemical as Hans pointed out even if the concentration takes longer.
Be Well
Tinker
.
G'day Tinker,
I have done a bit of checking on this, one way to remove carbon is using liquid CO2, it must be thoroughly de-greased before you can use it as grease contaminates the CO2 and the action stops, another source suggested caustic soda. Now this one is worth trying as caustic soda (lye) is available everywhere and not too difficult to handle. It is also cheap.
I'll have a look if I can get my hands on some of those pellets and give it a try.
Hans von Lieven
I think de-carbonising the CAT is a superb idea. Hey Hans, can you reference your info on the CO2 removal of carbon deposit please? Just for my knowledge :) (Aint for the kids I think are gonna freeze their hands off :))
I know a few mechanics, I'll ask them if they could possibly source me some old CATs and see what I can come up with. Perhaps they even know of other de-carb methods.
@Dave: Do you have any idea how much you would have invested in current setup? (Current materials in your report)
And how long do you think it would take to replicate your experiment? (For the layman with zilch experience :))
NssB
Thanks again Hans
Caustic Soda I have some experience with and can be neutralized easily but even it is nasty stuff. But I think you are right, that is the ticket.
Tinker
Perhaps of some help....
http://hondaspree.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2013&sid=69d4c1494b745f725eb8666f9ae8df3a
NssB
I can't wait to see the output of the scaled version! I'm as excited as a kid in a candy store. Heh heh...
That looks doable having the beads out of the converter will make it much easier.
Thanks
Tinker
QuoteI can't wait to see the output of the scaled version! I'm as excited as a kid in a candy store. Heh heh...
hehe, I think we all are.
ResinRat,
interesting reactor concept! So you actually have the electrode regenerate itself from the electrolytes in the solution...
It reminds me a little of a description on a "Perrault" sodium-chloride based ion valve I read a few years ago;
that also had the electrodes interact with the water to form H+ and OH- (or H2 and H2O2). A semipermeable membrane made sure the water could pass but the ion solution (based on simple sodium chloride) could not, and this way an exchange of electrons was produced which could be tapped off the electrodes.
As I recall the trick was to use electrodes that don't acually corrode or otherwise react chemically with the water, it is just the electron exchange that causes the water to dissociate...
Anyway, I thought perhaps you might be able to use a similar process to avoid having your electrodes wear down? No, I'm not sure how, I'm just suggesting it might be possible?
I cannot find the exact article that I recall reading, but this looks quite similar: http://www.nuenergy.org/alt/sodium_chloride_valve.htm
It is not as extensive as the one I recall reading but the valve looks the same and it sounds extremely similar.
This may not be of any use, but just in case it might be worth considering? ;)
Hi Koen1,
This is not a chemalloy battery, but there are some similarities in the sense of electron exchange. In my case the electrons are transferred by the wire that connects the electrodes outside of the electrolyte solution.
Once the proper procedure for the maintenance of the reactor is worked out, there should be no need for any of the components to break down. If you read the paper on the hydrogen reactor experiment, you will see that all the components, even the base OH- ions, are regenerated in the flow of the reactions. By directing some of the electricity back into the reactor the zinc regeneration is supplemented so its total reaction rate can be equal with the forward zinc consuming hydrogen production. The hard part is to find the balance of electrical input that is needed to maintain the reactor. Too much electrical input back into the reactor will cause the tungsten to plate onto the zinc anode. I tried to minimize this danger by using a very small tungsten rod for regeneration. That way there was much less electrical resistance that had to be overcome in operating the reverse current that helps to regenerate the zinc. I think that the zinc anode needs to be allowed to break down just a bit so that there is always zinc ions in the solution to replate, but you don't want those ions floating around too long because they will interact with the OH- ions from the base and form zincates. These will kill the reaction eventually. This is what I want to avoid. Also I want the zinc rods to be close together so there is very little distance to travel for the re-plating, and that way very little time to allow for the formation of a zincate.
This has been a challenge, that's for sure.
I believe that another parameter I did not take into account was the damage light would do. I think that some spectrum of normal light can break down the colloids, so perhaps the reactor needs to be protected from light. Maybe a dark amber coloring of the reactor is needed. I may do this like a separate surrounding container. Or maybe just operate it in a darkroom type of environment. That way I can see into the container when I need to, but otherwise it will be in the dark.
I also have decided the larger reactor will be made of glass. This has a much better heat transfer rate than Plexiglas, and should allow the reaction to operate more efficiently. I am thinking along the lines of a long, thin rectangular shape, so all the tungsten/carbide cathodes are right next to, but separate from, the zinc anodes. This will also allow heat to transfer from the environment more efficiently. I can clearly picture the design in my mind right now. I just need to decide on exact dimensions.
Ah, so many details. This is an amazing device that I believe will power the planet. It just needs proper development.
Hey Dave,
Did you ever consider using a well built aquarium? I dunno if its been raised before, and I'm probably thinking that the standard sealant wont hold up too well, but it gives you a good transparent base in pre-machined dimensions.
Cheers
NssB
I think it's finally time to start replicating this setup, now that the concept is concrete and that it shows tons of potential. However, instead of driving a fuel cell to produce electricity, my version of this setup will attempt to supplement an automobile as a fuel source and hopefully eliminate the need for gasoline completely, but that is for another time.
I'm worried about using glass as the container for the reactor, because if the gas somehow gets ignited, I don't want this thing to turn into a grenade or something like that, although if I use a bubbler this shouldn't be a problem.
Putting this into an automobile should be somewhat easier in terms of regeneration and such, because the power usage for this cell is minimal compared to other brute force type electrolyzers, all it needs is a regeneration current to keep the zinc electrode going and I should be set. Switching the electrodes could be accomplished by a relay or a transistor. I could also include a monitoring circuit to report the characteristics of the cell as it's operating such as the temperature, the flow rate, the tank level, etc.
The only problem I see is finding a space for this cell to fit in and finding out if it generates enough gas to do anything useful. I'm not worried about having it run itself because the alternator of the vehicle will recharge the battery which will run the cell. Tonight I'm going to draw up a rough sketch of my plans and hopefully get them posted!
What do you guys think? Do you think my plan is realistic? All I need a boost in my mpg at least, this thing is easily scalable to run a car. I know it can.
Also, if I locate this near the radiator, the hot air from that will help create a temperature differential and thus increase the productivity of the cell, as well as act as an air conditioner for the engine ;)
Hi NssB,
The aquarium idea has come to my mind many times in the past, it just won't work with a standard aqarium design. It needs to be modified and that is the trick. Separation walls and an added section to take care of the changes that occur in water level would need to be added, and I am not sure how that can be added to a standard aquarium. The only way I see this being built is as a custom job, from scratch. UNLESS, someone can come up with some innovative designs they want to share with the rest of us.
Thanks in advance everyone.
Hi Brian,
I was hoping after I issued the paper that others would begin their own experiments and development in many different directions. Yours sounds challanging and ambitious. Far outside of what I could do myself, so I wish you the best of luck with it. Please let us know how it goes.
Thanks for sharing your ideas and thanks for your willingness to jump into the research. I am grateful. Very, very grateful.
It has been a lonely road so far.
G'day Dave and all,
I can understand why you want to build the thing in glass, you want to be able to visually follow what is happening there.
If you are willing to forsake that advantage, why not build it in metal?
1 mm brass sheet for the box and separators, soldered together and then lacquered inside with a good epoxy resin. You would get a much better heat transfer, especially if you soldered some fins on the outside and electrically the epoxy would keep it insulated. Only question is, does epoxy interfere with your catalyst solution, though I guess not, since the acrylic sheeting you used worked OK.
You could always put an inspection window in it.
Give me the dimensions you want to use and the layout and I design it for you for your evaluation.
Just an idea at this stage, but I do want to help and contribute where I can. You are not alone Dave.
Hans von Lieven
That would be a great idea, especially if the cell is affected by light!
The reactor needs to be made of a non-conductive material. The metal would interfere with the electrodes in contact with the inside surface of the reactor.
G'day Dave,
It will be non conductive if it is lacquered inside with epoxy.
You can lacquer it outside as well if you wish.
Hans von Lieven
Hi Hans,
I like the idea, the heat transfer would be excellent, but right now I'd like to visually see what's going on from all angles. This thing is no where near the point where I think I know the details on how to keep it going long term. I like to record all the physical changes I see and I don't want any blind spots yet. Also, I want other people to see what's going on as well.
Thanks. Good idea.
Hi RR2 (Dave),
Is there any reason you couldn't use (sheets of) plexiglass? Once you get the hang of it its fairly easy to make just about anything with it exactly the way you want it. If the guys here (hans?) can agree that its not reactive (I wouldn't know, but its highly doubtful), then all you need to figure is what glue you are able to use and then have at it as far as designing just what you need.
Just a thought.
cheers,
HTH
Hi HTH,
I made my last reactor out of plexiglas. It works fine but I want a material that has a better heat transfer rate with the air outside the vessel. That is why I want to try glass.
You guys are going to laugh but right now I am experimenting with using Mason Canning Jars. A gas port on each lid and joining the electrolyte solution between the two with tubing. Should be cheap if it works. Costs less than one USA dollar for one jar. I will let you know how it goes.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Just a thought Dave,
Why don't you make the bottom out of metal. suitably lacquered of course, solder some fins on the outside to get better thermal transfer and build the rest in plexiglass or some other acrylic sheeting. Overall this will be a lot better than glass, which is not exactly known tor good heat conductivity, while at the same time allowing you to observe all processes within the cell.
Hans von Lieven
hi rr2,
you could also use thin wall zinc tube as an electrode,(you would need to get your timing calculations right!!!) this would allow much greater heat xfer,......or have your existing rod centre drilled on a lathe.
regards
dorro
@RR ...Hmmm... what about a small air-cooling radiator? I remember installing such a thing on my FJ1100 years ago to help cool the oil... ran the oil thru a little radiator mounted up front - worked great. Seems like a terribly simple thing to do (and even fashion oneself), and then while that little thing is worrying about your cooling for you you can concentrate on other aspects of your designs and further experimentation without having to mod your work environment so much.
What do you think?
HTH
HTH,
This system already runs cool, it doesn't need any cooling. I want it to absorb the heat from the air around it.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on November 25, 2007, 07:28:47 PM
HTH,This system already runs cool, it doesn't need any cooling. I want it to absorb the heat from the air around it.
The radiator just increases the thermal coupling to the ambient air...in most cases we use it to cool something, but in this case it would help pull heat into the system (e.g. by more efficiently cooling the air around it). Just like an air conditioning coil, for example.
Like a heatsink in reverse :)
Quote from: NssB on November 26, 2007, 11:42:22 AM
Like a heatsink in reverse :)
Hi NssB,
Such a device would draw energy from the system and how much energy does a pump draw? I don't think it's really necessary here. I ultimately want this unit to be as efficient as possible, and if I can just use materials that do the job instead of machinery, then to me that would be the most desireable.
G'day Dave,
Perhaps a stupid question, but I'll ask it anyway. I don't mind making a goose of myself if new knowledge comes from it :-)
Is there a temperature difference between your zinc and tungsten electrodes and if yes, how much?
Greetings
Hans von Lieven
QuoteHi NssB,
Such a device would draw energy from the system and how much energy does a pump draw? I don't think it's really necessary here. I ultimately want this unit to be as efficient as possible, and if I can just use materials that do the job instead of machinery, then to me that would be the most desireable.
Yes I agree, but a heatsink is nothing more than a finned block of metal designed to draw heat from one source to another. (No machinery involved) - You say your system runs cold, so the heatsink for instance will draw heat from the ambient air passing to your system as efficiently as possible. So when I say in reverse, what I mean is.......A heatsink is normally used to help COOL a CPU in a computer, whereas you'd be COOLING the AMBIENT AIR :) - I hope I'm not confuzzling anyone .... ???
On a further note, and I dont know how efficient you can get them, but you may wish to check out 'Peltier' devices.......
A temperature differential in these devices generate electricity. Food for thought perhaps....
I'll try and draw up a rough sketch diagram of what I envisage. Bare with me ;)
NssB
ok, i think i might scrap the Peltier idea. according to another recent thread on temp diff, it will just not cut the mustard with any degree of efficiency. However, the heatsink possibility is certainly still something one should consider.
NssB
Quote from: hansvonlieven on November 26, 2007, 04:11:46 PM
Perhaps a stupid question, but I'll ask it anyway. I don't mind making a goose of myself if new knowledge comes from it :-)
Is there a temperature difference between your zinc and tungsten electrodes and if yes, how much?
When I feel the electrodes they are all cold. This tells me the temperature of the solution is cold. I never actually measured the temperature because I don't have the equipment to to it with.
Maybe some day.
Haha! I am moving forward in my design process, I just ordered the parts for the dahsboard panel in my car (33.20$!) My bank account is running dry so I think I'll have to hold off until my (meager) paycheck this friday. Christmas shopping has drained it the most lately, whoo boy. But the circuit design and the parts are pretty much done, all that's left is:
-Buy plexiglass
-Make cell
-Buy chemicals
-Mix
-Buy electrodes
-Buy water container
-Buy hose
-Assemble circuit
-Run tubing
-Run wiring
Hoo, lot's to do, but alot is done, the hard work, the designing! Hopefully I can continue this friday! This circuit I've built will switch the electrodes every 5 minutes while the car is on and supply 5 volts to the regenerating zinc electrode. It will also light up a few LED's in the dash when the cell is getting water pumped into it, when the water in the tank is low, and when the bubbler lid pops off. I hope everything works.
Hi Brian,
Wow! Ambitious for sure. Good for you and I hope it works out.
I just noticed a flaw in my circuit, I have the electrodes switching but I have no electricity going to the zinc to regenerate! Dave, how did your electrodes hook up electrically again? I know one is just hooked to the other, but for regen, I didn't know where to place the positive and negative or if the electrodes were still connected together or something.
Hi Brian,
To regenerate the zinc you just need a power source that has the negative connection to the zinc and the positive connection to the tungsten electrode.
I tried to post a diagram four times but it rejected every format I tried. Sorry.
Also you don't want the voltage to be too high or else it will start plating tungsten onto the zinc electrode. Don't go over 0.85 volts.
You might want to fix your report, after I reread your report it said that you connected the zinc to positive. Or does it not matter with the polarity? Hey, thanks again!
Hi Brian,
I looked through the report again. I don't see where I made the error. Please tell me what page the error is on, I can't find it.
Thanks.
My mistake. I could have sworn that it read "connect the negative to the tungsten", sorry about that!
It's OK Brian, I appreciate people looking over my work and finding the mistakes. If they make a mistake then it's in my favor too. LOL.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on November 26, 2007, 06:12:36 PM
When I feel the electrodes they are all cold. This tells me the temperature of the solution is cold. I never actually measured the temperature because I don't have the equipment to to it with.
Maybe some day.
Hi ResinRat2,
You may want to try one of these stuck to the outside of the cell (self adhesive)
http://www.aquarium-supply.biz/v/vspfiles/V4_Backup/products/RTI00280_LG.jpg
or this fully immersed (it's sealed glass tube) to get a more accurate read.
http://www.aquarium-supply.biz/v/vspfiles/V4_Backup/products/RTI00279_LG.jpg
They go for 2-3 bucks a piece at the local pet store.
I hope this helps.
I like the idea of the second one; I think the temperature of the solution is definitely lower than 64 degrees F. As long as it can stand up to highly concentrated caustic solution it should be great.
Thanks Mikestocks2006, I appreciate the suggestion.
My parts should be here anytime! Sweet, I can't wait to get this gas out of my life for good or at least reduced dramatically. I'm shooting for around 40+ MPG after the cell is tweaked and the efie is installed. I hate gas, and the price just keeps getting higher, of course, maybe that's because everyone says the US dollar is so weak. Yup. Good thing I have a free water source right next to my house!
Hi SuperGod,
I think you definitely have the right attitude. I for one cannot wait until the day we are released from the grip of big oil.
I'm not so sure though that this type of system will be efficient and/or productive enough to power a vehicle.
I hope to be proved wrong and I surely await the coming weeks and months to see what happens.
Good luck
NssB
(PS, my real name is Martin)
Imagine living in England, petrol here is ?1.10 per litre ! luckily i run a turbo diesil VW, and it does about 50mpg, even better when i tip vegitable oil in it. But saving money is not the main reason for me. i think if this or somthing similar is successfull, it would change the world for the better real real quick. My ideal goal would be an electric car, that charged up batteries over night using a cell like this. Its time the combustion engine was laid to rest.
Hey Moto,
I live in Scotland, and know all about those prices :)
The overnight charge sounds like a spot on idea. They say that 78% of Americans could run their vehicle on 1 single charge per day meaning they would not burn 1 single drop of petrol in doing so. This sort of overnight charge would indeed make this a possibility.
The trouble is, most people do not have the money to get hold of an electric engine to replace their dirty big world polluting petrol/diesel engines. Ultimately, unless someone comes up with an "OU" method of hydrogen production of substantial quantities and a cheap method of protecting the current crop of ICE's from corrosion through solely burning Hydrogen, then the electric car is the way forward in my view.
NssB
EDIT:
I ran a very quick/crude calculation: According to a website I looked at ---> http://www.ijc.org/rel/focus/v20i1/feat08.html
The battery capacity of the tested Electric car is approx 50Ah.
Assuming a charge rate current of 2 FULL AMPS, it would take approx 25 hours to reach full capacity at 100% efficiency.
You can play with the numbers by visiting this site ----> http://www.csgnetwork.com/batterychgcalc.html
So folks, these are the sorts of numbers we are realistically looking at.
For those that want to know, on a full charge at 50Ah, an efficient driver operating at 0.8Ah's per mile, you will get 40 miles at 100% efficiency.
Quote from Linnard Griffin on his electrolysis process:
"By my calculations the footprint for a reactor to supply hydrogen for a 10 KW fuel cell is one cubic meter."
Should be sufficient
The only big problem I see with electric cars is what to do with old batteries. I would think all types of batteries we have so far would be hazardous thus not much better for the enviroment then petrol. I really believe hydrogen is the future as we can concieve it, but yes OU will be a major factor.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on November 28, 2007, 03:58:38 PM
Quote from Linnard Griffin on his electrolysis process:
"By my calculations the footprint for a reactor to supply hydrogen for a 10 KW fuel cell is one cubic meter."
Should be sufficient
Based on a conversion done by someone called 'Gav' on youtube, his dc motor sucked out 20kw when he floored it, and he got some pretty decent acceleration too! 1 cubic meter should be able to fit in a car somewhere ;)
QuoteQuote from Linnard Griffin on his electrolysis process:
"By my calculations the footprint for a reactor to supply hydrogen for a 10 KW fuel cell is one cubic meter."
1 Cubic metre cell can provide 10kW?
This my friend I would love to see!!
Don't get me wrong, I am 100% convinced that this method can convert ambient energy to useable power. That much you have proved Dave.
But really, just saying it out loud to yourself, do you believe that we'll see 10kW reactors in our labs/cars/homes anywhere in the near future?
If you say it's possible, I'm inclined to believe you...
NssB
Quote from: NssB on November 28, 2007, 06:06:37 PM
QuoteQuote from Linnard Griffin on his electrolysis process:
"By my calculations the footprint for a reactor to supply hydrogen for a 10 KW fuel cell is one cubic meter."
1 Cubic metre cell can provide 10kW?
This my friend I would love to see!!
Don't get me wrong, I am 100% convinced that this method can convert ambient energy to useable power. That much you have proved Dave.
But really, just saying it out loud to yourself, do you believe that we'll see 10kW reactors in our labs/cars/homes anywhere in the near future?
If you say it's possible, I'm inclined to believe you...
NssB
It's OK, I understand your skepticism. I will show you. Here on youtube is the video of a reactor (looks almost one square meter in volume to me abouts) Dr. Griffin posted years ago. As he states it is running 70 plus liters/minute.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnS4kfHNOEY
Now here is a link from Dr. Griffin's company Airgen website. It shows a product A20 generator. Look at the output., Look how many liters/minute it requires to run.
http://www.airgencorp.com/product.html#ag20_generator
Put two and two together. He had the ability to produce 10kW of energy back then. YEARS ago. Can you imagine what he has now?
Hope that convinces you.
Thanks for your interest.
hehe, ok, I got over my skepticism when I finally caught up around page 30 and all related videos/patents docs.
Indeed that video is impressive and yes Airgen do state that they can provision gens in the kW range.....but....
Ok, let me ask you to run some simple maths from your own results. You have X cubic volume of reactants producing Y volume of Hydrogen which is in turn converted to Z power output from your cells. Now if you proportionally multiply those properties where X = "The size of a microwave", do you reckon you will be able to achieve Y = 'anywhere near 70 litres/min' and Z = 'anywhere near enough to power a vehicle'?
I realise my question is very basic and if I am missing something, I'm sure you'll point it out..... :)
Other than that, how is the upscale going?
NssB
Hi NssB,
This first reactor of mine was the first prototype. It's purpose was to learn how to operate the reactor so it could have a continuous output of power as long as water was added to it. It had several problems related to its design that popped up during the run that all affected the output of the cell. So this first cell can't really be used as a comparison to size vs output in future designs. What I am trying to achieve here is overunity. In order to do that I need to use the most efficient means to produce electricity. Running an internal combustion engine is NOT the most efficient way. The fuel cell is far more efficient and that is why I have been concentrating on this angle of development and research. What my initial results show is that the amount of energy required to regenerate the zinc was only about 11% of the total output of the fuel cells. That was convincing enough for me to scale up; and Dr.Griffin's video is impressive to show that the output of the reactor can be increased simply by increasing it's size. Good enough for me.
It ran for 20 days and was still outputting hydrogen, but the cell was damaged by the shorting of the reaction when the tungsten electrodes began touching. This hurt the output from then on. The future design won't have that problem. If you want it to run an engine then I can't answer its effectiveness. Is 75 liters/min enough? What about half that output? Would that be enough? How much hydrogen does it take to run an engine? What size engine? Many, many variables that I don't have an answer for and are outside this area of research that I am concentrating on.
In my ideal, your car would be electric and would trickle-charge overnight. It would have a small reactor on-board that trickle-charged your batteries continuously and you would just add water each day. No need for 75 liters/min output. You drive your car a few hours out of the day and the rest of the day it charges. That would probably handle most to almost all the usual average driving that people do. Now relate that to small devices, computers, lights, etc. These can be handled the same way. That is why answering you questions are just side tangents. They don't relate much to my vision and ideal; but I am sure any needed output can be handled by simply scale-up; and just imagine the power output if they covered vast areas of useless, hot, hot desert. The output from large reactors would be enormous. That is the vision I see.
Hei People ,
can somebody give me a little math. help .?
My question is : How big is the energie in J from HHO in 1 liter .?
And Dave do you made some calculations of total output of Gas and Energie from your Cell during the last 20 days ? Can you talk about a efficiency faktor .?
Thanks Michael
Hi Dave,
Equally I share your vision. Excited to see what lies ahead.
NssB
Quote from: Micha on November 29, 2007, 04:08:54 AM
My question is : How big is the energie in J from HHO in 1 liter .?
And Dave do you made some calculations of total output of Gas and Energie from your Cell during the last 20 days ? Can you talk about a efficiency faktor .?
Thanks Michael
Hi Michael,
I don't know exactly what you mean by efficiency factor or what units you are looking for. You can read my experiment report and see all the data listed. All the numbers are there so you can calculate whatever you want.
Although I can not confirm or deny this to be correct this is from the post about the formula to convert water to HHO: "In a collected volume of O2/H2 gas the amount of hydrogen energy will be 7744 Joules pr liter collected gas."
Quote from: readyakira on November 29, 2007, 04:01:52 PM
Although I can not confirm or deny this to be correct this is from the post about the formula to convert water to HHO: "In a collected volume of O2/H2 gas the amount of hydrogen energy will be 7744 Joules pr liter collected gas."
I would sure like to know how this was calculated.
Below is me during a typical day at work. I LOVE MY JOB!!!!!
Quote from: ResinRat2 on November 29, 2007, 04:15:27 PM
Quote from: readyakira on November 29, 2007, 04:01:52 PM
Although I can not confirm or deny this to be correct this is from the post about the formula to convert water to HHO: "In a collected volume of O2/H2 gas the amount of hydrogen energy will be 7744 Joules pr liter collected gas."
I would sure like to know how this was calculated.
Doh! Dummy me, it's right there:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3107.msg46885.html#msg46885
Hi Everyone,
I have been getting messages on how the scale-up reactor is coming. I know I indicated that the reactor would be made of glass, but after doing some research I've come to the conclusion that drilling a hole in glass is a very difficult and tricky thing to do; therefore I am going to make the reactor with a combination of glass/Plexiglas. The reason for this is that I need to drill six holes in the reactor, and Plexiglas is much easier to work with.
The shape of the reactor will be a large rectangle, approximately 20 inches or so wide and approximately 18 inches high. It will only be about three to four inches wide, as I am going to line the t/c electrodes in a straight line and spot weld each one to the next. This accommodates my 5 inch long tungsten carbide electrodes, with headspace to add platinum mesh on the top of the reactor if I desire. There will be gas ports on the top of the reactor that I can use to go to a different container with platinum mesh, or to fuel cells for electricity production if I wish, or I can close them off and try experimenting with the platinum mesh directly inside the chamber and sealed.
So my vision is a rectangular box with the top, bottom. and sides made of Plexiglas with the holes in it, and the sides will be two 20" x 18" glass plates. These will allow the heat transfer to take place with the environment easily. I will also need to design a stand for the unit to rest in because of its odd shape and center of gravity. This unit will be very heavy, 9-10 lbs per gallon of liquid, plus the electrodes. I think wherever I build it, it will be staying there once I fill it. Very heavy.
It took a bit of research to get to this point. I calculated around 5 gallons or so of volume (approx) based off the space of the separating Plexiglas between the chambers.
I will post a drawing in the near future, once I get it out of my head and onto paper.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Quote from: Super God on November 28, 2007, 04:38:40 PM
Based on a conversion done by someone called 'Gav' on youtube, his dc motor sucked out 20kw when he floored it, and he got some pretty decent acceleration too! 1 cubic meter should be able to fit in a car somewhere ;)
Don't forget that 1 m3 of water weighs one ton (1000 kg) and it will be even more with the added salts and colloids and electrodes. You need to generate extra power to shift this additional weight.
Hans von Lieven
oh jeez that's alot of weight. However, the batteries he uses must weigh more than that! So I'd say it would be about the same weight either way. By the way, nice outfit Dave! Haha real scary. Is your work that dangerous?
Quote from: Super God on November 30, 2007, 04:08:58 PM
By the way, nice outfit Dave! Haha real scary. Is your work that dangerous?
No, He works in a lab on Mars ;D
Hans
Hi Brian,
Almost all the chemicals I work with have some toxicity to them, so yes it is a dangerous job, but I love it. When I go to work I feel like I am playing all day in the lab, and that is the truth.
What do they have you do most of the time? Just figure out combinations of chemicals? Sounds like fun. Someday I'm going to get to play all day in the server room of some big company hehe =P
In April/may 2007 issue of fuel cell I found this article concerning on board
hydrogen.
' How do the capacity targets translate to vehicle parameter? As a simplified example, consider a 20mpg vehicle with a 20 gall on gas tank. Ideally a full tank would permit a driving rang of up to 400 miles. The gas tank system filled with 20 gallons of gas weighs about 75 kg (a typical value). With an assumed efficiency increase of 2.5X (50mpg), an equivalent range fuel cell would need a storage capacity of 8 kg of hydrogen and the fuel system, based on 2010 targets, would weigh about 130 kg.'
later in the article, they placed 1 kg of hydrogen ~ 1 gallon of gasoline energy equivalent'
FYI
LOL! I wish mramos was hanging around me too. Then maybe he could help design and explain the electronics aspect of the project and I could actually REALLY understand how to use electronics to bring this project to full working fruition!!!!
...as it goes. We all do the best we can with what we have.
Just watch for explosions and flying pieces when you hang around me. LOL! (just kidding)
Quote from: gculpex on December 06, 2007, 01:48:29 PM
later in the article, they placed 1 kg of hydrogen ~ 1 gallon of gasoline energy equivalent
1 kg. Hydrogen gas x
0.018 kg. of Water x
Gallon of Water =
2.38 gal. water 1 gallon of Gasoline 0.002
kg. Hydrogen gas 3.785
kg. of Water gal. Gasoline
@ResinRat2
Hello, I have been following this discussion and am waiting to hear about more progress from you.Ã, I want to tell you and anyone else that is doing serious research that I am willing to offer my services at very low or no cost.Ã, I would like to contribute to your efforts in this way.Ã, I have seen that you are very interested in developing this technology.Ã, I've also seen you get very good results.Ã, I own a small machine shop.Ã, I have 2 vertical cnc mills and 1 cnc lathe.Ã, I also have all the support equipment which would include of course manual mills and lathes.Ã, I have quite many mechanical measuring instruments.Ã, I started in 1992 doing very close tolerance parts, prototyping Cray supercomputers.Ã, I am no stranger to high precision machining on the order of +/- .0005 inch.Ã, Although at this time, as my machinery has aged along with me, I would be more comfortable with +/- .001.Ã, Of course these are locations from the edges of parts, between holes it would be right on.Ã, Please feel free to contact me.Ã, I will gladly review drawings for you.Ã, I am used to also working from sketches on napkins. ;DÃ, At request I can give you my facilities list.Ã, If you need machined parts and would be convenient for you, let me know.Ã, I live in Eau Claire WI.
Alex
Quote from: joemumu on December 15, 2007, 05:54:52 AM
If you need machined parts and would be convenient for you, let me know. I live in Eau Claire WI.
Alex
Hi Alex,
I appreciate the offer. I looked at my navigator and Eau Claire, WI is an easy (lol) 6 hours away, so it is a bit far.
The problem is that as it is being built I notice problems and little details that I would not have noticed otherwise if I am not right there. This is what would be missing if it is done at a distance away. Then, more wasted time, money, and materials.
Sorry, I guess if I had someone close by and we could collaberate and build it together then it would be more of an ideal situation. That is not going to happen, so I am doing the best I can right now. My patience has seen me through so far, what is left of it will get me the rest of the way.
Hi RR, check this out, is it not similar to your device? they have there water at near boiling point, which reminds me of one of them videos of linnards where his water solution looks to be boiling. Just an observation.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml%3B$sessionid$UTFLVFU5KGT1XQFIQMGSFFOAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2003/05/18/ncell18.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/05/18/ixhome.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=481996&in_page_id=1965
Hi Motofox,
The first link you listed does not work.
The second link is a bit vague, I am not sure what is happening or exactly what they are proposing.
Does anybody know what the "secret" catalyst is?
Thanks for trying though.
@Motofox,
Yes this, (first link), looks very similar to what RR2 seems to be working on from the descriptions of his device.Ã, If it is identical, only RR2 can tell us.
@RR2
You must have only clicked on the link.Ã, The following needs to be copied at the end of it.Ã, $sessionid$UTFLVFU5KGT1XQFIQMGSFFOAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2003/05/18/ncell18.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/05/18/ixhome.html
Alternately you could copy and paste the entire text including the link, (being careful not to click on the link itself directly), into the address bar on your internet browser, then of course launch it
Please give us your comments after you view it.
You are welcome to my offer when it becomes convienient to you.Ã, As time passes you will become more confident of the mechanical integrity of your device.Ã, Contact me when you feel it is time.
@all
This in no way affects the research that RR2 is currently doing and I wait eagerly for more data as it becomes available.
Thank you
Alex
Ah yes, I copied and pasted it in reverse and was able to get the link to work.
This is not the same as what I am doing but it is very interesting. I think it may even tie into what I am working on in an interesting way. The electrolyte in the water is sodium carbonate, but this might work with sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide as well. From clues in the Linnard Griffin Patent and on his company's website (airgencorp.com) it is hinted that the zinc can be THERMALLY regenerated. What this means exactly I do not know, but I suspect that if the temperature of the reaction solution could be increased that it would help to speed the part of the half-reactions that regenerate the zinc. So my line of thinking leads me to the direction of research that would add this to the cell. Instead of trying to regenerate the zinc directly, perhaps I should split the power source so that the amount that would otherwise be going to regenerate the zinc would go to this type of setup inside the cell. This would raise the temperature of the electrolyte solution, and speed the reaction naturally. If I do this on the zinc side of the reactor, this would allow the zinc regeneration to occur at a faster rate, perhaps balancing the zinc regeneration speed with the hydrogen generation. So the cooler side of the reactor (hydrogen generation side) would run at a bit slower rate than the warmed side of the reactor (zinc regeneration / oxygen generation side.) That is my hypothesis anyway. It just needs to be tested.
Thank you very much motofox and joemumu. I don't know if it is possible to add this to my reactor setup because the zinc would plate on the negative electrode, but if I think about it for a while I might see how this could tie in with the whole setup. This might even be what is happening inside my cell anyway. It is just that instead of a platinum electrode I am using a zinc electrode. I am not sure.
Wow, another direction to investigate. I really need a lab and some technicians. LOL!
Thanks for not giving up on me and throwing out those suggestions. I appreciate it.
Well some brainstoming came to me and I think this concept can be used, and it might be to my advantage, but it would need testing. This would also alter the design of the cell to three chambers instead of the present two chambers. One chamber would hold the cluster of tungsten/carbide electrodes that produce the hydrogen. These would be tack welded together and connected to the outside with a tungsten/carbide rod through a rubber stopper. The second (middle) chamber would hold one zinc rod connected to the outside through a rubber stopper also. These zinc and tungsten/carbide rods would be connected on the outside of the container with a copper wire. This would begin the hydrogen producing reaction. The two chambers have a permeable membrane or openings between them.
The third chamber is attached to, but sealed from the zinc chamber and would use this new concept motofox indicated with the potassium carbonate in water with platinum and tungsten rods. The fuel cell would power these rods and produce heat that would transfer to the zinc chamber and speed the zinc regeneration side of the reaction, hopefully enough to balance the hydrogen production so no separate zinc regeneration voltage would be needed.
This is the concept and here is a rough sketch. (TOP VIEW)
It would need to be tested. I wouldn't know what voltage is needed or how much gas is needed. It would be like starting from scratch with a new design; but if it works it would solve many of the problems of the previous cell.
The only problem is that I don't have time to test this concept right now. It will need to be put on the shelf for future development. In the meantime I am working on the large reactor build.
hi RasinRat, how much do the materials cost for your new units? I'll send you $100 if you prepare and mail the materials needed for one unit to me, or better yet build a copy of one and send it. $180 if you do it for someone else too. I think the best way to spread this is to kinda mass produce, or buy materials in stock, then send it out to a number of people. Makes it cheaper, and more organized.
Sorry Buzneg,
I haven't even settled on a final design and I realistically haven't even achieved overunity yet. These prototypes are pure R & D.
Scaled up reactor drawings attached.
The platinum wires may or may not be added to this model in the future. I don't show the holes on the side views for these wires.
The right and left sides of the reactor will be made of glass to aid in heat transfer. The rest of the reactor will be plexiglas.
Hi Everyone,
I found a simple solution to the hole drilling dilemma. I just let the glass cutter do it (lol). Who needs diamond drills and headaches.
Here are the pictures of the final cut parts. I wasted too much time trying to do this stuff on my own.
I can say that I am certainly not too proud to admit when I need help.
Some of the photos look funky because the ceiling light is reflected in the glass surface. Please ignore my lack of photograpy skills.
Looking good, Dave!
Keep it up! I can't wait to see what this thing looks like assembled. So much going on is Free Energy land lately. It's great.
Sweet! RR ;^)
Couple of shots in assembly, just so you see how it's going. 48 hours dry time on each seam. Still need to get the tungsten/carbide electrodes spot welded together. I'll have my brother do it for me. Drop it off this weekend and let him find the time to weld the sixty or so electrodes together for me. It's been busy here at home and I have found it hard to get time to work on this. Family, obligations, and the wife (chores). My son has been providing the extra holding hands for me on this project.
Thanks everyone for your patience and interest.
Whoooohooooo,
I finally was able to get the pictures to load above.
RR,
Your outstanding work on this will pay off for sure. I am very glad you kept to your word and have NOT given up on this project.This is the largest unit you have made so far, I am sure you are expecting a lot more out of it.
Trump
Hey Guys,
I'm still reading through this project (currently on forum page 23). I think you were onto something with the threaded AL insert but the amount of Al contacting the Zn may not have been enough?
Here is a design I am considering putting together (Attached) I will probably use a plate of some sort on the far end and tap weld the (welding) rods to it... should be pretty easy. All rods will be supported from both ends by either welding to stainless steel plates or sitting in drilled & glued perspex (Need to confirm it will survive in NaOH).
Notice the chamber sizes so that the H2 side is exactly twice the volume of the O2 side so that the pressure builds equally.
Let me know if you guys want an exact build plan of this?
Thanks,
Chris
Hi Chris,
I did a great deal of testing with various configurations on the aluminum-zinc rod idea. I found, in the end, that the zinc would replate on the surface as zincates. Zn(OH)4-2. There was nothing to drive the oxygen off and replate the zinc as pure zinc. The only way I was able to do this was to put an electrical reverse current (negative on the zinc, and positive on the tungsten sides) on the electrodes and release the oxygen. Otherwise the zincates would eventually totally cover the zinc electrode surface and kill the reaction.
The aluminum rod inside the zinc rod encouraged the zinc to galvanically replate as a zincate, but it wasn't enough to get pure zinc replated. After a couple of weeks of testing, I finally gave up on the aluminum rod angle.
This was my experience, but I don't want to stop you from your research. You may find a way to make it work. Don't hesitate to send me a message if you have any questions and I will be happy to tell you what I did and my results.
Thanks for the reply ResinRat,
I was just thinking, when you tapped into the Zinc rod and screwed the Al rod into that... did you try tapping deeper into the Zinc? Were all your experiments based on the same surface area in contact between the Zinc and the Al?
Just a thought as Dr. Linnard is the one that got us onto the plating idea?
Chris
Hi Chris,
All my experiments had the aluminum rod about 1 inch deep inside of a six inch zinc rod. I never went any deeper.
Hi Chris,
One other thing, when I initially starting I used just a plain aluminum rod and the zincates formed on that. I ran and FTIR analysis of the coating and it came up as zinc carbonate after it had been dried at 250 ?F. This allowed me to deduce that the zincates were reacting with the carbon dioxide in the oven and forming zinc carbonate. So even just using a plain aluminum rod without a zinc coating it was already forming the zincates. That is why I don't think you would have much luck with this angle. However, I have been wrong in the past; it wouldn't hurt to revisit this area of research again and either confirm my results or show I did make an error in my interpretation.
I actually would like someone else to try their hand at it as well. It would help myself and others to try and find the right path this research needs to take.
Thanks for your willingness to experiment and help.
By the way, I really like your drawing --- nice job.
Dave (RR2)
Hi ResinRat,
Thanks for that, I've attached the drawing in Google Sketchup format.
I need to think the zincates through, I understand the way you determined that was what they were... could there be another explanation? Is there a definitive answer why an Al screw run into the Zn electrode would cause a difference in the reaction? By this same measure, wouldn't the copper wire be a part of the reaction as well?
As for the fuel cells you guys are buying... if you pipe the pure O2 generated into the cell as well and stopped using Air you could double the current the cell could produce and be able to run Alkali Fuel cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_fuel_cell). You can build them as described here for very little investment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cQg0Ur9Cko&NR=1). If they were good enough for Nasa, why not us? As long as NO Carbon Dioxide enters the cell... it's about as reliable as it gets and can be close to 70% efficient! The interesting thing is... These cells would probably run with the same Alkali mix we are using in the generators now. This means that if any of the fluid enters the cell... it would probably be a good thing from time to time as it would replenish the electrolyte.
I have been playing with fuel cell designs for awile now and I figure if you made that cell... in a 8" by 8" design, you would be getting ideally about 0.7 Volts at 4 Amps. You will not get a single traditional cell in any system to give you more than a Volt. Thats why we have fuel cell stacks.
What would happen if we built an 8" x 8" cell... but instead of two single mesh's we had eight mesh's wired to simulate a stack of 8 cells? That would give you a single enclosure and electrolyte cell that produced 2.8 Volts at 1 Amp! Now if we built a single similar cell that was 1' by 1'... With 18 mesh plates wired in series. We would have a single cell that could produce 6.3 Volts at 1 Amp.
Yes the electrolyte would short everything out unless you used an interesting gasket or silicone to seal the individual cells and keep them from shorting each other... If not... we could just build a traditional Cell stack...
That could easily drive a microcontroller that could in turn handle the regeneration swapping and be able to run a pulsed current through a voltage multiplier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_multiplier) giving us 12 Volts at 0.5A!
Now consider taking this and building a traditional Cell Stack with these all wired in Parallel? A stack of four could give us 12V at 2A continuously charging 12V batteries... then add an inverter ;D
Cheers,
Chris
Having trouble posting the files... will try again in a sec
Files (Attempt #4)
Hi Chris, I reposted you questions and my answers are in blue.
Posted by Tacmatricx :
I need to think the zincates through, I understand the way you determined that was what they were... could there be another explanation? Is there a definitive answer why an Al screw run into the Zn electrode would cause a difference in the reaction? By this same measure, wouldn't the copper wire be a part of the reaction as well? You are correct about the copper wire. It all has to do with an element's tendency to want to donate electrons. This applies to Standard Reduction Potentials in the half-reactions we are dealing with in a particular system. Here is a link to a listing of various Potentials:
http://wblrd.sk.ca/~chem30_dev/appendix/tables_charts/red_potentials.pdf
The lower an element is in the table, the greater tendency it has to donate electrons. Zinc is higher up in the table than aluminum, so aluminum has a greater tendency to transfer electrons to the zinc, thus causing the zinc to precipitate out. Unfortunately in our electrolyte solution the zinc is in the form of zincates (Zn(OH)2) so it will precipitate out as a zincate, not as pure zinc. This is why we need the reverse current applied in order to free up the oxygen and allow the zinc to replate as pure zinc.
Now look where copper is in the table (Cu). It is above zinc in the table so zinc actually has a greater tendency to dotate electrons to it than the other way around. That is why if we put the copper wire by itself into the solution it would not precipitate out the zinc, but the aluminum wire does precipitate out the zinc. I think this is my feeble attempt at the best way I can explain it.
As for the fuel cells you guys are buying... if you pipe the pure O2 generated into the cell as well and stopped using Air you could double the current the cell could produce and be able to run Alkali Fuel cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_fuel_cell). You can build them as described here for very little investment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cQg0Ur9Cko&NR=1). I posted this video in this thread in the past. Unfortunately, I couldn't obtain the platinate chemical. It is listed as hazardous in the United States, so only companies or corporations that qualify to handle hazardous chemicals can obtain it. I couldn't buy it myself (I tried) and the company I worked for said they would be liable if I was injured using it at home. So this was impractical for the average citizen to get. So without the chemical, I can't build the fuel cells.
Thanks for your efforts and drawings. Very nice job, but don't give up yet. Keep searching, you may find the answer that I missed.
Dave (RR2)
Hi Mike,
My brother is in the process of welding the tungsten/carbide electrodes together. Once he is finished I will begin the final assembly of the remaining parts.
Patience is a virtue given only to the wise. That is why I am MORE anxious to get this going than the rest of you. (LOL)
Obviously I'm not a wise-guy. LOL
Dave(RR2)
Hi RR2,
Thanks for the explanations! I'm still making my way through this thread and am still only at page 49 :)
I read that you don't "HAVE" to use platinum as the core of a fuel cell and that Nickel also worked but wasn't as efficient and needed more surface area to work as well. i.e. you build a cell twice as large and you get the same results... and the same fuel consumption as the smaller platinized cell. I'd rather build a larger cell that I could one day "upgrade" to platinum... Have you tried talking to your local Jewelers store? They do platings all the time :) It'll cost you a little but you get what you pay for.
Keep up the good work!
Chris
Quote from: Tacmatricx on January 20, 2008, 10:18:32 AM
I read that you don't "HAVE" to use platinum as the core of a fuel cell and that Nickel also worked but wasn't as efficient and needed more surface area to work as well. i.e. you build a cell twice as large and you get the same results... and the same fuel consumption as the smaller platinized cell. I'd rather build a larger cell that I could one day "upgrade" to platinum... Have you tried talking to your local Jewelers store? They do platings all the time :) It'll cost you a little but you get what you pay for.
Please let me know where I can reference the nickel use in a fuel cell if you can. This is of great interest to me. I would rather pay for nickel than platinum. I also have not talked to any jewelers about plating. I have been just working on putting the larger reactor together right now. Time is tight and I work on this project as I find the time to do it.
Thanks for your interest and input.
Dave (RR2)
Hi Dave,
Here are two references to Nickel as the electrodes:
1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell
"The electrode?bipolar plates are usually made of metal, nickel or carbon nanotubes, and are coated with a catalyst (like platinum, nano iron powders or palladium) for higher efficiency."
Plated with Platinum for higher efficiency... i.e. it will work with Nickel mesh but it works better when it's plated with Platinum.
2) http://www.qsinano.com/news9.html
"QuantumSphere, one of several companies investigating materials that could become alternatives to platinum, has developed a nano nickel material that costs only a quarter as much as platinum, according to the company's chief scientific officer, Douglas Carpenter. Platinum costs about $10,000 per pound, while nano nickel can be mass-produced for a fraction of that, according to Carpenter."
Nano-Nickel has more surface area than normal Nickel and because of the higher surface area, the efficiency is regained.
3) The top of the line electrode is a Platinum/Nickel alloy.
I will build a DIY Fuel cell with fine Nickel mesh and if it fails to work, I will have my jeweler buddy plate it for me. Anyone else is welcome to let us know? RR, Can you try some Nickel wire as you did with the platinum?
Thanks,
Chris
HahahHAHhahHAhaha.... It's Day 5 and I've FINALLY made it through all the posts!
Dear god I need a drink...
RR2,
I was thinking about your pressure equalization problem, If you design the cell with the fact that H2 gas is generated at twice the rate of the O2 then, by design the H2 side of the chamber should be twice the volume? This way the pressure should build evenly in both cells.
You may need to add a pressure switch to stop production if the larger cell reaches say 5-10psi.
If you were adding an Alkaline fuel cell I would pressurize both the H2 and O2 sides of the fuel cell and connect the water output port from the O2 side of the Fuel Cell to the O2 side of the reactor as well. This way you are not bleeding gasses to atmosphere and it would be totally sealed with no need to add water anymore? You extract the gasses from water, recombine them in the fuel cell and get back water, everything is pressurized so gravity pulls the water back into the cell via over sized tubing. Unless it's an atomic reaction occurring somewhere (and you're still alive) we should not be loosing any materials in the cycle.
Thanks,
Chris
Hi All, Sorry for thread Spamming but:
Found some good Tungsten and Zinc Suppliers!
Tungsten:
http://www.tungsten.com/sheet.html
Example of Pricing: http://www.tungsten.com/orphan.html
Zinc:
http://www.rotometals.com/ZINC-SHEET-CUT-PIECES-Various-Sizes-_p_3-1874.html
Rods are a waste of material and a B!+@# to cut!... Plus Sheets have more surface area!
No Excuses people... Lets get replicating! ;)
Chris
Since we are talking differnt chemicals... It seems to me using differnt metals and such it reminds me a lot of another super heated reaction caused by a mixture of metals...
I wonder why no one has expiremented with what kind of energy ouput they could get from other reactions...
One BIG one that comes to mind to me is Thermite! The amount of heat this stuff puts out in such a short time spell overunity in itself!
It could instantly vaporize water I would imagine... Not to mention if you were to use it for steam power somehow to then have the car run off of a steam generator...
Key point to realize boiling point of water is = 100?C = 373.15 K
Low heat application pulsed dc with sharp edges seems to be working for many or square wave patterns... This seems to create hydrogen with minimal power and done under certain conditions it seems to produce more then others things like plate spacing is critical too it seems but a possibility if fine tuned.
maybe lower heat chemical reactions or alkaseltzer lol may bring promise who knows gotta work at it I suppose...
Mentos and Diet Coke? hehe
Anyhow take care keep on searchin folks there is a solution to the energy crisis!
Hey Dave,
You still alive man? :) Or has your other half found the research bank account and raided it? :D
Itching to hear how it's going!
Cheers,
Chris
Hi Chris,
Fortunately, when I married my wonderful wife I insisted that we have three checking accounts. One for me, one for her, and one joint account. I learned this a long time ago from a buddy of mine who has been happily married for decades and he and his wife DO NOT argue over money.
Into my account goes the money I earn at my job. Into her account goes the money she earns at her job. (Note: this only works if both spouses work); and into the joint account we each put EQUAL amounts of budgeted money to pay all the bills at home (food, water, electricity, gas, taxes, home repairs, children, etc.)
This way I can use what I have left over for what I want (hydrogen research, cars, etc.), no questions asked. She can do the same.(clothes, etc.); and the most important thing of all. We never argue over money. Happily, this system has served my marriage well for over almost two decades. It has also allowed me to conduct my hydrogen research funding without hassles.
Lucky for me. :D
Update: I am waiting for my brother to finish the tap welding of the tungsten/carbide electrodes together so they form a long row. Once this is complete I will finish assembling the remaining parts.
Thanks for your interest.
RR -
After reading through the patents and your research documentation, as well as all 68 pages of the thread, I'm finally able to post something! First I want to add my thanks to the many others that have already done so, not only to you but to everyone else who has helped out along the way!
Now, I'm not a chemist or any kind of useful engineer when it comes to this subject but I'll help out where I can. Since I'm new to hydrogen based experiments I'm going to start out with a simple electrolysis tank and work my way up to reproducing this experiment... and hopefully have something useful to add to all that you've done!
I did have an idea for a possible addition to your current or future reactor. I saw (sorry I can't remember who posted it) where you were discussing the sodium carbonate reaction and you had some sketches with a third chamber on the outside next to the zinc for that specific reaction - to add the heat generated to the zinc regeneration side. Would it be beneficial to instead place that exothermic(?) chamber between the H2 and O2 sides? If I understood whats happening in this reaction, it's drawing energy (heat) from the ambient air, so theoretically adding more heat would increase the reaction correct? Seems to me the added heat from the exothermic reaction being in the middle would boost H2 and the zinc regeneration... maybe that would help enough to keep the particulates from forming? Of course that would also add distance between the electrodes (if that is a factor). Again - I'm no chemist or anything but just tossing some ideas out... not meaning to criticize your plans or anything.
You'll have to excuse the poor drawing... I've attached a quick sketch of what I mean.
Chaotic (Judd)
PS - mramos, you hit the nail on the head with the server room remark... I too am stuck in that icebox and if I had known what I was getting myself into I may have chosen differently! I can't even imagine how much fun it must be to go to work and play with chemical reactions all day long!
dunk your electrodes in to a aluminum can of Pepsi cola and use aluminum electrodes.. lots and lots of bubbles. then drink it, its a nice boost in the morn. Pepsi has alot of acid so maybe thats why
Hi Judd,
I know I posted that idea about six weeks ago and I hadn't looked at it since. The distance between the zinc and tungsten/carbide electrodes does influence the rate of the hydrogen production. The closer the electrodes are, the faster the reaction rate. Also, my main thought was to put the extra heat into the zinc chamber only. I wanted to speed only the zinc side to help balance the reaction rate. By putting the exotherm in the center, like your drawing (nice job by the way, very clearly done) it will speed both reactions equally and the heat generated would be more efficiently used. This won't help the zinc side to equal the tungsten/carbide side, but it would speed the hydrogen and oxygen production, so in that sense it would be a good thing. This example illustrates perfectly how there are so many other avenues to investigate that would ultimately improve the unit's performance.
I hadn't thought about this since then but it will be revisited in the future. Your idea is a good one if modified to be on the side of the two chambers so that the zinc and tungsten/carbide electrodes remain close together, or maybe even built directly below the whole unit so it warms the reaction from below. I think you know what I mean. In the meantime, if anyone has any other information on that Potassium Carbonate reaction then please PM me about it. It sounds interesting and I wonder what they actually found out about it.
Thanks Judd for you suggestion, it may be very useful in the future.
Oh, one more thing Judd,
Quote from: Chaoticside on January 31, 2008, 04:48:14 PM
PS - mramos, you hit the nail on the head with the server room remark... I too am stuck in that icebox and if I had known what I was getting myself into I may have chosen differently! I can't even imagine how much fun it must be to go to work and play with chemical reactions all day long!
Everybody thinks the grass in always greener on the other side of the fence. I have tedious days too, but I have had some really lousy jobs in the past. I think it was those past experiences that helped me to appreciate what I have now.
Thanks again for your interest and comments.
Just an update for those who have been asking me.
My brother still has not finished the electrode welds. He lives a little over a hundred miles away from me so I can only see him on weekends. I will not push him to rush and I will not complain. He is doing it as a favor to me, he is also a skilled mechanic and welder and he believes in doing a GOOD job on anything he works on. He knows what he is doing and I trust him.
Thanks for your comments and interest.
Hey Dave
I got tell you something
Your tenacious efforts to make your device work and your willingness to share your knowledge, and taking the time to keep us in the loop re-your progress warrants aknowledgment.
THANK YOU! reguardless of the outcome.
I know that things are slow now during construction of your updated device, But speaking for myself I look forward to your continued efforts. Yeah I know that is worth about the same as a cup of coffee at Dennys but living in the south I have limited resources.
No doubt there are others that have watched your thread and feel the same way I do but are hesitant to express their thoughts for many reasons.
I appreciate your goal and appreciate your efforts
Be Well
Tinker
Hi Tinker,
I appreciate your interest and comments. I know it must be very frustrating watching this thread. The electrodes are not finished yet, and I was trying my hand at checking the fitting of the glass pieces a few days ago. I am sorry to say I dropped the top piece and broke it. I picked up a replacement just the other day and dummy me tried fitting it again. I guess I don't learn well from my mistakes sometimes and it fell AGAIN. Only this time I broke that piece again and the front piece cracked as well. I think what I am learning from all this is I need to stick with professionals when it comes to building this stuff. Especially with glass.
I am going to go to the glass company and have them actually construct the unit after I get the tungsten/carbide electrodes from my brother. The glass company said they could put the unit together for me, and it seemed like a better alternative to my all-thumbs approach to making this thing. If you think you are frustrated with this thread, I can guarantee to you that I am even more frustrated with myself. This thing should have been put together already. Once the tungsten/carbide electrodes are installed in the unit then they will be in there permanently and will not be removed. That's why I need to wait until I get them from my brother before the final construction. The zinc rods, however, will be changeable.
Sorry everyone, trying my best here, it just is dragging on and on.
Interstingly, i see that you calculate what you have in milivolts. I can't back up what i say and i'm not completely sure about it...but i know that you can get energy just with all the radio waves that are all around us with all the time. Therefore, unless you make that system with an output of at least 1kW and then make it run and power a 1kW resistor? lamp? i don't know...for a week without any loss of energy, only then will i be impressed.
There is nothing on this unit that is used to pick up radio waves. There are no batteries, crystals, or antenna on this unit either. All the power comes from the fuel cells, and the only source of power output from the fuel cells comes from the hydrogen input. The hydrogen is produced in the reactor as a chemical/thermal driven reaction.
If I were to just hook up the fuel cells to a fan without any hydrogen input, then the fan would not run at all.
I agree, the power output was small. This was the first prototype to learn how to run the unit and maintain its output. It was small to minimize cost and simply test the whole concept of its operation and power producing capabilites. The results showed some promise, and I posted them here for all to see.
The wires can act as antennas! I just wanted to point that out, hence the reason why it would be good to have it made bigger, that's all. I've been starting to look at the patent, and i'll probably try creating a bigger version on my own.
Best of luck to you and I am glad for your interest.
hi resinrat,
i've been following your experiments for about 6 mos. now, and im just wondering if you could update us on where you are at presently?
i realize you are busy, but im sure im not the only one that is checking into this forum every once in a while hoping to see your progress.
please let us know how things are going.
or have you finished it already, had it confiscated, and are not allowed to talk about it anymore?
if thats the case, just bark once.LOL
loosecannon
Things just have not been working out, and my brother has not been able to weld the rods together like I needed. A couple of months wasted. I am a bit perplexed at this point.
I will be getting the electrodes back from him this weekend, and try my hand at another way to join them together.
I haven't written anything because there was nothing to report. Guess I'm better at the chemistry side than the reactor building. I was trying not to bother him about them because he was going to be doing it as a favor to me and I didn't want to pressure him. Guess that was a mistake and it didn't work out. Another obstacle to overcome.
Believe me, I am very frustrated over this.
Sorry I wasted so much time.
Hey, don't worry, I always find that things wind up working better for me in the long run when it is delayed a bit. Just keep up the good work and don't give up! Best of luck to you, Dave!
-Brian
Hi Resinrat 2
Use Silver solder to connect the tungsten electrodes.
Linnard
Quote from: linnard on March 20, 2008, 06:48:32 PM
Hi Resinrat 2
Use Silver solder to connect the tungsten electrodes.
Linnard
My lucky guess, that is exactly what I am doing. Thanks very much.
Hey RR,
Had an idea today about the cell operation after researching flooded cell lead acid batteries for power installations:
http://power.tycoelectronics.com/Family.aspx?FID=f8dc88ff-9d6b-4601-92ca-d823fcb79120
Basically most of these types, especially the non spill gel batteries and even the newer fiber mesh types can be easily damaged by draining the cell too quickly. Reducing cell life because of lead crystal grid growth.
What you're essentially doing in all of your designs is shorting out the cell directly... adding a resistor load (trying to run a heating coil for instance) could reduce the cell gunk buildup? I would add a variable resistor and start at high resistance and go from there while monitoring output and cell cleanliness.
I'm working on an extremely simple regeneration switcher for you using a high value resistor (1megohm), a zener diode to control the charge switching, a large capacitor to control the timing and a two low voltage reed relays to do the actual switching. Basically built for someone with no electronics background and is easy to understand.
BTW: I still thinnk that your electrolyte balancing tube might overflow depending on your pressure... It might be easier to build the cell to fit the gas generation... i.e. make the volume of your H2 chamber twice the size of your O2 chamber and have simple pressure switches to switch the cell off at a certain pressure. Working on a simple pressure switch using syringes, springs and aquarium tube.
Cheers,
Chris
Hi Chris,
Wow, great. I am open to your ideas. I appreciate the effort and the input. Post them here for all to see.
Thanks
Can anyone tell me what the ___ happened to this thread it was 70 pages now <30 ????
What the Hell happened? ???
It looks like each page got much longer? I hope all the info is still here!
Yes, I just made the pages longer.
Before it was just 15 postings per page,
now it is 40 postings per page.
So you don?t need to click so often and
the ads fits better into it without annoying.
Sorry, I had to put some ads in there, as
the userbase is rising and the clickrate at the borders
did decrease.
I want to finance a few new things coming up soon.
Regards, Stefan.
ResinRat2
Seems that the forum is kind of dead lately, hope everyone has not given up on the idea? Seems that the time is here that good ideas like you have been working on " ResinRat2 " are sure needed. I know things take time and a lot of testing. Hope you hang in there RR2,
Regards
Trump
hear hear!
i also hope you have not abandoned the idea dave.
you've come so far.
how is the silver soldering coming?
good luck.
LC
I have been having many problems getting the silver solder to stick to the tungsten/carbide rods. Initially I was trying with a soldering iron and flux, but couldn't get it to stick. I switched to a propane torch, but even that didn't get the solder to adhere to the electrodes surfaces. I got one to stick to one electrode, but it refused to adhere to another, then broke off from the original electrode. Going nuts actually!!!
I tried heating the electrodes for a good 5 minutes at full force with the propane torch, trying to get them hot enough to meld with the solder, but all the solder did was lay on the surface like a molten blob of mercury, then harden and not stick. I tried polishing the rods first, then heating, then using flux, but this is funky for me. I am not a welding man, I have no acetylene torch ( that may be what I need ) and I don't know anyone who has one except my brother; and I've waited long enough for his help previously to know it's never going to happen. Heat may be my problem, I might not be getting the surfaces hot enough. A quarter inch thick T/C rod may take a higher heat to get this to work.
I have reached a consensus that I am just going to build a small frame out of plexiglass to just hold the rods together with sliver solder wound between each rod so there is separation for the gas to escape, and just glue the frame together to hold the rods in place. Even with temperature shrinkage there should be enough room for the silver solder to keep contact with all the rods. This small block of rods will then be glued into the center of the T/C chamber to hold it in place. Sorry, I have been going kind of crazy trying different ways of heating these puppies. Can't get the solder to stick so far.
Believe you me, I want to get going with this!! I have not given up, just been trying to work outside my comfort zone. I am just not having good luck so far.
RR2,
The metals to be brazed with silver solder must be orange glowing hot, use lots of flux.
Try SSing a couple of near same sized iron pieces for practice.
Wolfraum will really take the heat and i mean REALLY TAKE SOME HEAT I dont know if it can be brazed.
you might arc weld them with hi W rods thats just a guess....
if you can, just tack the rod to the rod next to it on the ends
best of luck its just a hurdle to overcome, some are like mountains tho.
"""Welds in molybdenum and tungsten are brittle (<50% joint efficiency), and thus these metals are difficult to join. Before welding, molybdenum and tungsten must be preheated above their ductile to brittle transition temperatures to prevent fracture. Heavy sections of molybdenum should be preheated and postheated when welded to reduce thermal stresses.
"""
http://www.welding-advisers.com/Refractory-metals.html
Refractory-metals: usage and joining practice
Dave
EDIT i mean silver brazing *solder* not plumbers solder which will vaporize at the temps W will start glowing at, both will probably.
OK Dave,
Just as I suspected, HEAT is my problem. See what happens when not using the right tools?
I'm not purchasing an arc welder just to do this.So this shifts me to my backup plan which is to use the silver solder as a wrap instead of brazing it on. All I wanted was the connection. That should be sufficient to accomplish what I need.
It's settled in my mind then, I'll quit wasting time with this heating method and just use the silver solder wrapping idea with the plexiglass frame.
Thank you very much Dave. I appreciate the info. Too bad I didn't ask sooner, I just thought it would be a simple thing to do. I was wrong!
RR2,
You really want a good electric connection, if that connection is in the water (so to say) it will corrode or poison.
IF the connectiion is not in the water then disregard.
Can you get mapp gas where you live (some places are becoming INSANE) rant off
you need two or more torches aimed at the place you want to try zapping or brazing.
Take a look in the local phone book you have a interesting problem to solve ill bet there are people like your bro (um pressure him) welders out there that can do it, if its possable to find w rods (which i think you have already)
you can make a welder out of an old microwave oven a really nice one if you have 4 or more old microwave ovens to scab, hint the hv out on the transformer is where you connect house current in google "home made welder" +microwave
if your in michigan your wellcome to use my teeny welder and my torch.....
Dave
here is a link to a page with a little bit of info about silver soldering things like tungsten carbide.
http://www.laymar-crafts.co.uk/tech6.htm
just the basics there, but some good points to consider.
im thinking that the tungsten rods may not have been clean enough, or may have had some sort of coating on them that wouldnt allow the solder to stick.
or maybe just not enough heat.
can anyone see anything wrong with using acetone to clean the rods prior to brazing?
i think really clean and really hot should get you there.
what diameter rods are you using again?
LC
Hi,
I would use a grinder to clean the places I was going to braze or weld, or even try contact connections to, at-least sand paper.
Dave
RES I wonder if a simple HHo torch [browns gas etc] would do the job some amazingly hot temps claimed [for preheat braze and cool down ] and you could build it yourself cheap Chet
Hi LC,
My electrodes are 1/4" diameter rods.
Right now I am finishing up drilling out the 60 holes in the plexiglass holder for my electrodes. I had to go up one step at a time in size with the drills, slowly increasing the sizes of each hole so as not to break and crack the plexiglass material.60 X 8 = 480 holes drilled, plus reaming them out. I am still not finished, but almost. Once those are done I can glue the frame together, then get going with the final assembly of the electrodes and silver solder. Then comes the glass pieces.
I'm getting there, I'm getting there, ... :P :P
Hi Everyone,
I promised someone who PM'd me that I would post a picture of my T/C electrodes in the Plexiglass holder. You can see the silver solder wrappings around the bottoms of the electrodes. These will all be connected together and joined to the electrode that will be sticking out of the reactor through a rubber stopper. It took me a while to wrap them. Total of 60-70 eletrodes.
I know the solder could be subject to corrosion, but there is enough surface area, and I had no other alternative available to me, I have lost my patience and just want to get this unit into operation.
All I need to do is show overunity through my numbers of output and regeneration voltages.
Then I will let it run and run and run and see what happens.
Thanks everyone for your interest and patience.
hi rr.
why not make the base of you box out of alloy block,
drill blind holes for electrodes to sit upright in, located with grub screws....much the same as you have now.
then laquer the surface that will contact any liquid.
use flexible sealer on the alloy block to fix the sides to
now you have a good electrical connection AND exellent thermal transfer.
there may be something i am missing but i am only trying to help.
regards
dorro
oh!
also forgot to mention that the above method will prevent any contamination.
:)
dorro
good ideas dorro!
i was thinking about a conductive epoxy to hold all the silver solder in place and keep it one big piece essentially.
not sure if the epoxy would react with the liquid though. probably would.
RR,
(i understand that your patience is all but gone.LOL)
if nothing else, you should seal the connections at the base with some sort of silicon, caulk, whatever goop you think would work, but something to keep the silver solder wraps dry no matter what.
that should keep the connections from corroding or oxidizing, at least for a while.
just an idea,
good luck,
drilling those holes must've been quite a chore!
looks good!
LC
Thanks people,
Actually you all gave me a good idea. I could use T/C rods across the bottom and rest the electrodes on top. Then I can eliminate the silver solder completely. I can hold it all together by just gluing a thin plexiglass piece across the bottom sides of the holders. Yes, that would be much simpler and I wouldn't have to worry about corrosion. Oh well, all that extra winding for nothing! LOL! :D
I must say, I have wasted a great deal of time on dead-ended tangents.
That's the nature of research. :P
no dead ends, just lots of curves along the way.LOL
cool solution RR!
onward and upward!
PS- the more specs and pics you post of your materials and build; the more of us that can start doing our own and follow along!
i bet im not the only one interested in taking a few drawings to a glass shop!
thanks for all that you are doing RR,
LC
Hi LC,
Yes, I changed the configuration of the holder. The silver solder is gone and now it is all tungsten rods. Some of the rods are horizontal, the rest are verticle. I'll post the pics when I get back home tonight. This should work out fine and now I can finish the assembly of the reactor. FINALLY!!!
Once the reactor is put together I'll post the pics and the diagrams with measurements. I think everyone is probably waiting to see what kind of results I get. This stuff is not cheap, and no sense wasting money on something that may not pan out. I am personally disappointed of the high costs of the tungsten/carbide rods and the fuel cells. It really makes this expensive. Getting the glass parts cut and holes drilled was over $300 US dollars alone. Ouch! Along with the fuel cells that are several hundred dollars. A bit pricey; but costs will probably drop on these components in the future. Maybe.
Thanks for your interest and support.
Hey ResinRat,
New to the forum, this is quite a thread... Three or four days worth of reading. What an exciting project you've got going here. I'm glad to see you're maintaining your enthusiasm through your ups and downs. Keep up the good work...
One question... How often do you foresee having to change your zinc rods? It'd be nice if you were getting 100% regeneration, but it looks like they may have limited lives.
Sorry one more, haven't you proven overunity? Seems to me you have, with your 20 day test.
Pink
Hi Pink,
You wrote:
One question... How often do you foresee having to change your zinc rods? It'd be nice if you were getting 100% regeneration, but it looks like they may have limited lives.I believe that if the correct regeneration voltage is constantly maintained then the zinc will continue to regenerate indefinitely. As long as the oxygen is driven off, then the zinc should replate as pure zinc, not as a zincate. It is the zincates that kill the reaction. This means the zinc rods should not need to be replaced.
Sorry one more, haven't you proven overunity? Seems to me you have, with your 20 day test.The 20 day test did not prove overunity to me definitively. There was a mechanical issue that ultimately hurt the reactor output and caused zincates to begin forming on the rods. It could be that the reactor was regenerating the zinc but eating up the OH- ions over time. This I have no way of monitoring because I don't have the equipment to do that. To prove overunity to me the unit needs to run with a good constant output of gas for months and months. That is what I see as a longterm test. I was very disappointed that it was damaged and the output dropped. This was my fault and a design flaw. It won't happen to this large reactor. The output numbers did indicate overunity, but overunity over three weeks is still not overunity. Not to me. In reality, I want to see it run for YEARS without stop and without adding anything else to the unit but water.. Yes----YEARS. That, to me, is definitive overunity.
Thanks for your interest Pink, and welcome to the forum.
Greetings from Finland :). I just came by to say hello to ResinRat and all others OU writers ;D.
I have just started my experiments on this Linnard Griffin style system and already getting some results! MANY thanks ResinRat for publising that final draft.pfd :).
I'd like to tell little about my setup. My reaction medium, its made using resinrats recipe (without magnesium for now) and my anode is also zinc. But im using welding rods as cathode, inner part of it. I removed protective coating ofcourse and yes im getting quite good hydrogen production 8). Pictures and videos about my expiriments are coming soon, when im done building my first "reactor" ;D
Cheers
Matias
Hi Matias,
Thanks for letting us know you are trying something out. I look forward to your pics if you can post them, and any other details about your setup that you want us to know about.
Without the magnesium you will be using up the zinc much faster.
Please share with us any information you see that is interesting or relevant.
Thanks again, and best of luck to you.
Dave (RR2)
Hi Dave
Yea I'll try to do finish up my prototype as soon as possible and trying to get magnesium colloid for reaction medium I also need to borrow digital camera from my friend. I'm hoping that ill get something done till end of this week.
Well as for my findings, I found out that iron that contains carbon (those welding rods or older drill bits) works as cathode but stainless steel did not. So i thought maybe it was carbon in Fe that did the trick I tried using pencil lead and burned wood as cathode, It gave some hydrogen but I wasnt able to compare output with iron rods. Handling those fragile pencil leads were quite big problem so I decided to leave them for now.
And I planning to build little microwave "gun" for heating reaction medium very fast, it uses only hand drill battery as power source. There is video on youtube http://youtube.com/watch?v=32OyUlpzht4 (have to be very carefull with that :o )
Cheers
Matias
Hi Matias,
I've seen experiments in normal (not Linnard Griffin Type) electrolysis where carbon electrodes are used and this works as well. Dr Linnard Griffin had a video posted of a small hydrogen generator unit and he mentioned that it used rusted bailing wire as part of the electrode system. I just thought you would get a laugh out of that. The patent has many different experiments listed.
The heat gun should speed up the reaction, but I would not use that. Looking for overunity requires that it run itself without outside power input, so I limited myself to the fuel cells for power.
Good luck, and I hope you enjoy your research.
OH noes. I have encountered quite big problem. There doesnt seem to be any shops that sell colloidal magnesium in Finland and I dont know where could i ask for pure magnesium so i could make my own colloids >:(
I could easily have magnesium hydroxide and it should form Mg ions into solution but I dont know if it acts same way as Mg colloid. I anyone have some knowledge about this please reply.
Cheers
Matias
I order my magnesium and silver colloids from this site:
www.wateroz.com
It is located in the United States; but they can ship it to you if you need it.
Good Luck
Some pics of the electrodes installed. I still need to finish closing it up and sealing the unit.
Thanks for your interest.
SWEET!
very cool looking.
i bet you are getting just a little anxious to see how much power this thing puts out! LOL
do you already have the fuel cells that you need?
i remember at one point you were discussing building the fuel cell into the unit.
where did that idea end up?
cant wait for more youtube vids!
LC
LC wrote:
i bet you are getting just a little anxious to see how much power this thing puts out! LOL
I am very interested on how this thing will work. I don't want to get my hopes up too high because I don't want to be let down too much, but I am hoping it does well enough to get a few hundred ml/min hydrogen output. We shall see.
do you already have the fuel cells that you need?
I have three fuel cells. If I max them for output I will probably buy another one. We shall see.
i remember at one point you were discussing building the fuel cell into the unit. where did that idea end up?
I had the platinum wire in some test cells, and this unit has the upper holes to test that for the future. Right now I want to get it going and operating for a long term test. The built-in fuel cell will be tested later.
cant wait for more youtube vids!
I will be posting as soon as it gets going. Thanks LC
Hello RR,
You are doing great work! I am new at this site and have been following along the last few days (had to read all the pages!) I am starting to work on a HHO generator, but am following your progress as well. I had a couple ideas, maybe you would like to incorporate them into your system. I was wondering about converting a small amount of voltage into AC to help regenerate the zinc (maybe no switching needed?) or using a "water battery" to supply the voltage needed, get free electricity (.79 volts I think) from zinc and copper electrode in just a glass of water(seen it on youtube).
Good luck to you! If you ever need some things welded and brother-in-law cant do, we have a mig and tig machine.
Mark
Mark69 wrote:
I was wondering about converting a small amount of voltage into AC to help regenerate the zinc (maybe no switching needed?) I am not sure what you mean, do you have a diagram or drawing of what you were thinking of? It would be easier for me to understand if you had a picture of some type
or using a "water battery" to supply the voltage needed, get free electricity (.79 volts I think) from zinc and copper electrode in just a glass of water(seen it on youtube). I couldn't fine the water battery you mentioned on youtube. Do you have a link I could follow?
Good luck to you! If you ever need some things welded and brother-in-law cant do, we have a mig and tig machine.I live in St. John, Indiana. How far away are you?
Welcome to the forum Mark. Looking forward to your continued interest.
Here is the link for the water battery: http://youtube.com/watch?v=b-GAvA0YCxE
As far as the using alternating current instead of using DC to charge regenerate the zinc electrode, maybe use a real small inverter or something instead of having to switch the current manually??? Don't know if it would work or not.
I am in Woodbury, NJ (near Philadelphia, PA), you would have to ship it, but for some reason if you couldn't have something welded for an extended time, I would be willing to help out in any way possible.
Mark
Hi Mark,
I watched the youtube video. He is essentially using the voltaic effect between the zinc and the copper. What is happening is the zinc is being oxidized because of the difference in the standard reduction potentials of copper and zinc. Eventually the zinc will be used up.
You are a bit far from me, but I appreciate your offer. I have decided to forget about welding the rods together.
Thanks for your interest.
Did you guys know that you can actually buy tungsten sheet from ebay? Check this out: http://stores.ebay.com.au/Three-Roll-Mills_Moly-and-Tungsten-Products_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfclZ3QQfsubZ19418994QQftidZ2QQtZkm
A 150x150x0.4mm sheet is $40 plus freight. Seems a lot easier than mucking arround with rods. I have ordered some and will try this thing out myself.
Uli
Hiya all!
Geez I have been busy lately. Haven't have even time to read this forum BUT my project is steadily going forward. I have now proper zinc rods and my dad has helped with desinging actual "reactor". I still need magnesium colloid and enough time to actually build whole thing ::).
Oh well I need to go now.
Cheers
Matias
Quote from: cleanfuture on May 15, 2008, 08:58:32 AM
Did you guys know that you can actually buy tungsten sheet from ebay? Check this out: http://stores.ebay.com.au/Three-Roll-Mills_Moly-and-Tungsten-Products_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfclZ3QQfsubZ19418994QQftidZ2QQtZkm
A 150x150x0.4mm sheet is $40 plus freight. Seems a lot easier than mucking arround with rods. I have ordered some and will try this thing out myself.
Uli
That's great Uli. I am sticking with the rods right now because I have already purchased them; but the sheets sound like a great idea. Are they tungsten/carbide? Straight tungsten produces hydrogen very slowly. You need to use tungsten/carbide instead.
Hi Uli,
Yes, I looked at that link. Those are pure tungsten sheets. They will give off gas very slowly. I wouldn't buy them if I were you. You need tungsten/carbide sheets.
Sorry
hi RR, good to see you still at it.. im dying to see it running, you should get webcamXP and stream it for the world to see lol. how far off are you from running ?
YOU GUYS MIGHT TRY TRASH DIGGING AT SOME DRILLBIT FACTORYS FOR TUNGSTEN CARBIDE
SOME DRILL BITS FOR OIL FIELD WELLS ARE MADE OF MOSTLY TUGNSTEN CARBIDE ALSO THE PADS ON THE SIDE AND THE CUTTERS ARE PURE T.C.OR DIAMOND CARBIDE
- I USED TO MAKE THEM
T.C. POWDER HELD IN PLACE BY A COPPER/ZINC (I THINK) ALLOY THEN HEATED TO MELT THE COPPER INTO THE TUNGSTEN POWDER
WE USED TO THROW OUT A BIT OF IT WHEN THE CANS IT COMES IN RUN OUT-
(PROBLY ILLEGAL TO DO THAT NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT-OIL COMPANYS ARE BAD ON THE ENVIRO!!)
HOPE THIS HELPS
YOU GUYS ROCK KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!
;)
Quote from: motofox on May 15, 2008, 04:14:04 PM
hi RR, good to see you still at it.. im dying to see it running, you should get webcamXP and stream it for the world to see lol. how far off are you from running ?
Hi motofox,
I cemented the final glass piece on just a few minutes ago. All that is left is for the unit to dry for several days to be sure all the cemented joints are cured. Then, fingers crossed, I will test for leaks with plain water. If it looks good then all systems are go for the launch of HR2 (Hydrogen Reactor 2) (LOL).
I want to put a few pin-stripes on it to pretty it up a bit, then I will post some pictures.
Thanks for your interest.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on May 15, 2008, 11:06:26 AM
Hi Uli,
Yes, I looked at that link. Those are pure tungsten sheets. They will give off gas very slowly. I wouldn't buy them if I were you. You need tungsten/carbide sheets.
Sorry
Thanks for the tip. Looks I just wasted 60 bucks. I checked out other tungsten carbide links also. Anther option would be to use TC granules inside a copper mesh cage. This would give you a huge surface area for the volume. I think I will give this a go.
Uli
Quote from: cleanfuture on May 16, 2008, 09:03:34 PM
Anther option would be to use TC granules inside a copper mesh cage. This would give you a huge surface area for the volume. I think I will give this a go.
Uli
Hi Uli,
The only problem with using the copper mesh cage is that the copper would be below the reaction liquid. That means it would be subject to chemical attack by the electrolyte solution. It would oxidize and turn green, contaminating your electrolyte solution. I know this because I have gone this route similarly before. The copper must be above or outside the liquid completely. That is why this project has been quite a journey for me. I have made a great number of mistakes and failures so far. Only the tungsten/carbide and the zinc can be in contact with the solution.
Bummer, I know, but unfortunately true. I guess you can see why I was ending up with what I have, though tungsten/carbide sheets sound like a good idea. If you can find them and if they are not too, too very expensive.
Best of luck to you.
Dave(RR2)
Quote from: ResinRat2 on May 17, 2008, 09:20:48 AM
Hi Uli,
The only problem with using the copper mesh cage is that the copper would be below the reaction liquid. That means it would be subject to chemical attack by the electrolyte solution. It would oxidize and turn green, contaminating your electrolyte solution. I know this because I have gone this route similarly before. The copper must be above or outside the liquid completely. That is why this project has been quite a journey for me. I have made a great number of mistakes and failures so far. Only the tungsten/carbide and the zinc can be in contact with the solution.
Bummer, I know, but unfortunately true. I guess you can see why I was ending up with what I have, though tungsten/carbide sheets sound like a good idea. If you can find them and if they are not too, too very expensive.
Best of luck to you.
Dave(RR2)
Ok, I thought that might be the case. But what about encasing the TC granules in a plastic mesh such as nylon. Even a nylon stocking stretched over a coarser plastic lattice tube would do the trick. If this tube extends above the liquid level and the copper wire is inserted into the granules not lower than the liquid level, it should work, no? I am just thinking of the greatly enhanced surface area you would get from granules. . It would be thousands of times greater than rods for the same volume. You can buy granules for $70US/pound. Another option would be 316grade stainless mesh. But the alloys in the stainless might upset the reaction. Have you tried this? Also, have you calculated the energy balance for the zinc regeneration versus equivalent hydrogen output? The patent is a bit sketchy on this. Linnard talkes about it in experiment #14 but does not give any details of current draw e.t.c.
Uli
Hi Uli,
The plastic or nylon mech would work great.
Based off of the last experiment: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3633.0.html
The results seem to indicate that only about 10% of the total power output from the fuel cells is needed to regenerate the zinc. This large reactor I am going to start testing should prove definitively if that is true.
Hi Uli,
The plastic or nylon mech would work great.
Based off of the last experiment: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3633.0.html
The results seem to indicate that only about 10% of the total power output from the fuel cells is needed to regenerate the zinc. This large reactor I am going to start testing should prove definitively if that is true.
Thank you for the idea to use plastic mesh. It's easier to get tungsten-carbide granules in some places.
I was just thinking about the nylon mesh. It would need to have large enough openings on the top to allow the gas to escape easily, otherwise it will become trapped and unable to exit the small openings.
That can easily be done by punching holes in the top so the gas can escape.
Just some thoughts that came to me. This would apply to the plastic mesh too.
All the seals are dried and ready for testing on my reactor. Today is the day I perform my leak tests. If all goes well she should be running by tommorrow. WhoooHoooo. Finally, and, I must say, it's about time too!!!
Did anybody tested the #22 (and maybe #23) experiment from the Linnard's patent? It seems even more efficient (maybe the second video - "350mlpm" - is made using one of those?).
Hi Edelind,
I would agree with you, they are probably more efficient at gas output, but i have worked with hydrochloric and sulfuric acids in the past, and the the chlorine and sulfer smells are highly unpleasant so to say the least. That is why I am sticking with the Hydroxide reactions.
As soon as I will make my colloidal Magnesium solution and get the acids and zinc/cobalt sulfates I will try that for myself. I am still hoping that the hydrogen will come out clean! :) I'll post the results here.
That's great edelind, I suspect your results would be very good.
I am wishing you the best of luck on it.
Just some pictures during the leak test with deionized water. So far it looks good. No leaks, even between the inner chambers. EXCELLENT!!!!
Got my fingers crossed.
It holds a total of ten liters of liquid. The center glass wall that seperates the chambers has four - 4 inch holes. Each covered with 1 micron filter nylon mesh. This is to keep bubbles from crossing chambers. Thats what the cloudy area is between the chambers. It has a total of 52 - 1/4" tungsten carbide electrodes and 14 - 1/16" thoriated tungsten electrodes I had left over from previous experiments. The two zinc rods are 5/8" diameter and 12" long each.
Thanks for your interest.
looks great RR, good luck! cant wait for your results :)
Mark
looks great RR!
good luck.
are you concerned at all about the horizontal tungsten rods shifting or settling and thus upsetting the connection between them?
i hope i have not misunderstood something here.
it looks to me like the horizontal rods are connecting all the rods together.
am i wrong?
sorry, not a scientist here.LOL
LC
loosecannon wrote:
are you concerned at all about the horizontal tungsten rods shifting or settling and thus upsetting the connection between them?
i hope i have not misunderstood something here.
it looks to me like the horizontal rods are connecting all the rods together.
am i wrong?
sorry, not a scientist here.LOL
LC"
No LC you are not wrong. The horizontal rods are connecting all the rods together, but I have them placed and nestled within each other in such a way that they will not shift out of position unless I turn the whole reactor at an extreme angle (like 90 degrees,LOL!) The holder is cemented to the bottom of the reactor so it will not move.
You say you are not a scientist, but you obviously are sharp enough to work out the visual details. NICE!!
Thanks for the compliment and encouragement
i sort of figured you had already considered this, but, like you, i am trying to play devil's advocate to avoid surprises. LOL
i realized the first time i came to this forum, that it was 90% over my head as far as the math, and the theoretical concepts being discussed, but i knew that of all the subjects being discussed on the internet, that this is the most important one of all.
thats when i knew that i had to buckle down and just force myself to wade through posts that i dont understand, knowing that little by little, the knowledge will seep in.LOL
i do it everyday, and i am beginning to understand things. a bit...
music is one of my many hobbies, and i learned early on that playing with musicians who are better than you makes you a better player.
i have been following this thread since you first posted to it, and i will be here until there is nothing left to learn.
so, forever i guess...LOL
so, dave, let me leave you with the one piece of formal scientific advice i know, which was given to me by my high school physics teacher.
he said, "check your math". LOL
again, good luck,
we all appreciate the time and expense you have invested in this,
LC
RR,
was looking back through the thread in an attempt to refresh my memory a bit.
a question arose.
are you still going to be manually switching the connection to the zinc electrodes every 12 hours with this reactor?
if so, are you interested in having a circuit do it for you?
it shouldnt be too hard for me to find a circuit that will do that, and breadboard it up.
i would be willing to build it and send it to you.
its the least i can do after all the money you have spent only for us to benefit from it.LOL
i realize the ramifications of doing the switching this way, as in, how will we power the circuit?
will it be powered by the output of the reactor?
i believe that to be a secondary consideration, because once the reactor is working properly, it should be no problem to provide a few volts every 12 hours.
i think it would be ok to power this circuit from a 9 volt battery for now, just to ease the burden on you physically.
of course, there will be those that choose to disbelieve just because they see a battery on the table.LOL
ok, that oughta distract you just enough to make you forget something that is actually important.LOL
(can you tell i am at work right now?)
LC
PS-one more question so i can learn something here:
will a varying load change the reactions going on in the reactor, or will the reaction remain constant regardless of the load applied to the output?
just thinking because the fan was always drawing the same amount of power.
thanks.
loosecannon wrote:
are you still going to be manually switching the connection to the zinc electrodes every 12 hours with this reactor?
if so, are you interested in having a circuit do it for you?
I will still be doing manual switching initially until I can determine how much output I get from this reactor. Another person offered to design a circuit for me once I get some output numbers. Also, I am not sure how often it will be switching. The larger number of electrodes will use up zinc faster, so it may need to be switched at shorter time intervals than 12 hours. Maybe every couple of hours or so.
it shouldnt be too hard for me to find a circuit that will do that, and breadboard it up.
i would be willing to build it and send it to you. its the least i can do after all the money you have spent only for us to benefit from it.Thanks for the offer though, I appreciate it.
i realize the ramifications of doing the switching this way, as in, how will we power the circuit?
will it be powered by the output of the reactor?Yes, all power will be from the output of the fuel cells.
i think it would be ok to power this circuit from a 9 volt battery for now, just to ease the burden on you physically. No, I don't want batteries anywhere near the unit. It must be self powered to prove overunity.
will a varying load change the reactions going on in the reactor, or will the reaction remain constant regardless of the load applied to the output? The reaction rate will go at its own pace, no matter what I hook up to the fuel cells. They operate independent of each other.
just thinking because the fan was always drawing the same amount of power.The more load I put on it, the more power the fuel cells will put out. They have a load-following capability.
Thanks for your comments and interest.
Hi All,
Just wanted to let you know that I needed to work on installing the platinum wires in the top two holes before I add the electrolyte solution. I also have decided to replace the bottom two corks on the drain holes with rubber stoppers instead. I did not have a rubber stopper available for that size (either size 0 or 00) so I had to order them. The cork ones seem to be not sealing as well as I would have liked them to. Sorry, this will delay it for a few days. Also my spouse has requested I keep this unit outdoors. For some reason she is afraid of hydrogen leaks. So I am literally installing the unit in a dog-carrier. That way it can sit outside and be protected from inclement weather. It is going to take me a couple of days to set this up.
I apologize greatly for this but this popped up suddenly. I am still moving forward on this, just not as quickly as I would have liked to have had this unit running today.
So it will be a couple of days yet.
Thanks for your interest.
RR,
i would hope that everyone would understand about the delays.
we all have to keep peace in the household.
otherwise, it could be YOU sleeping in that dog carrier.LOL J/K
thanks for your replies to my questions.
"No, I don't want batteries anywhere near the unit. It must be self powered to prove overunity."
LOL, i should have been able to answer that one for myself. DOH!
as for the fuel cell output; it looks like i need to do some studying up on fuel cells!
off to do that now.
do you think the weather is going to be a problem for you?
varying humiditiy?
extreme hot and cold temps?
(this is where you can really tell i am not a scientist.LOL)
thanks again,
LC
loosecannon wrote:
do you think the weather is going to be a problem for you?
varying humiditiy? extreme hot and cold temps? Yes LC, since I won't be able to control the environmental conditions it will give me more of a "real world" experiment. I guess ultimately this device is going to be in the real world anyway. It would have been nice to keep those variables constant. Oh well. I just need to live with it and adjust. I have had to do so many changes in ideas and procedures and setups over this project, I look at it as just another challange to overcome. HOOYAAAH!
I just need to add the platinum wires before the electrolyte is added, or else it will cause me a great difficulty to try and add it later. Also it looked like the cork stoppers at the bottom of the reactor (for drainage) were soaking up the water. Even though there was no leaks, I could just see the potassium hydroxide from the solution drying up on the outside of the cork and forming a big, white blob of caustic. Not only would it be UGLY, but I would have to break it off and try not to touch it and burn my skin. SCHEESH, it would have been a pain. The rubber stopper would work much better, I just didn't have one available once the reactor was together. Poor planning on my part, but I keep going and going and trying my best. The stoppers are on order and should be here soon.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
im sure you will be very happy that you waited for the rubber stoppers!
good luck with the real world testing!
takes a lot to daunt you doesnt it?LOL
LC
Quote from: ResinRat2 on May 20, 2008, 01:56:27 PM
That's great edelind, I suspect your results would be very good.
I am wishing you the best of luck on it.
It will take a little longer for me too, as I found out that in my country, those substances are labeled "dangerous" and they will not sell them to individual persons, but instead only to licensed companies. I have a friend who owns a company and the good news is that the licensing process is easy, even time consuming. So I have faith that I'll be able to test that in a week or max two.
Hi edelind,
It does not surprise me, I think in the USA it will reach a point soon where I won't be able to buy them myself either. There are quite a few people in my country that still like to make their own lye-based soap, so it is still available for now.
My stoppers are scheduled for delivery tommorrow. Not too bad, so it was just a couple of days delay.
Thanks for your interest.
Hi Everyone,
WHOOOOOHOOOOOOO!!!! :D
I stopped off at Sears Hardware today, looking for some hose connections when unexpectedly I found out that they carry rubber stoppers. The exact sizes I needed. YYEESSSSSS!!! ;D
The reactor is all together and I finished threading the platinum wires for the built in fuel cell experiments. I put them through the stoppers and added cork stoppers on the inside so the wires will float on the surface of the liquid. This is perfect for testing the theory of the built-in fuel cell. I can always easily add more platinum-coated wire as I need in the future now. So I am all set equipment-wise. She is ready to launch.
Tommorrow I will spend my time preparing the electrolyte solution (10 kg. worth) and getting this puppy rolling. :D
5...4...3...2...1...Launch!!!
It's been a long time coming, that's for sure.
Thanks for all of your patience and interest. I appreciate them very much from you all.
Hope I can get some sleep tonight. LOL! 8)
WOOOHOOO!!!!
dont forget to cross your T's and dot your I's! LOL
wont have a computer till sat. afternoon.
cant wait to check in then.
good luck RR,
LC
<--rubbing hands together......can't wait to see the results ;D
Well I had the reactor running yesterday for about 20 min, then it developed leaks in both the front and back corners of the Tung/Carb (hydrogen) side, I ended up stopping the reaction and draining out the electrolyte solution before it leaked out all over the place. I took a short video of the unit before I started the test, but it just shows the unit and nothing is really happening so I don't think I will bother posting it.
I will try today to clean it up and seal those two spots. This is bothering me because I just hope it isn't because of expansion and contraction. The reactor is sealed so I can't get on the inside, so I will try to plug the leaks from the outside. May take a couple of days.
From every failure I learn something, and one thing I did learn was that the idea of the built-in fuel cell will not work on this process. What happened was that as the hydrogen production built-up speed the area around the platinum electrodes started to develop brown precipitate. I believe it was one or both colloids starting to kick out. This makes me suspect that as the platinum wires build up charge they begin attracting the colloid silver/magnesium ions and kicking them out of solution. This means this will not work for this system. So the dream of the sealed unit is gone. I will need to use the hydrogen gas produced to go through an external fuel cell to produce eletricity. At least I learned that much.
Also, the gas production was not as fast as I had hoped. It was slowly building speed and it might have reached a good clip over time, but I won't know until I try it again without leaks. Actually it was going pretty good off a few electrodes at the time I stopped it so perhaps it just needed time to reach reaction speed.
I was disappointed, but I will give it another shot. I just need to give this unit a fair chance to react over a period of time without leaks.
I will keep posting information as I learn it.
Thanks for your interest.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on September 07, 2006, 12:13:28 AM
Stefan,
Thank you for making the patent available for download here on the forum.
I just looked the patent over and this is fantastic! This is the answer to your overunity!
Dr Linnard's patent has a series of experiments with excellent detail, and I love the fact that it is utilizing chemical reactions with no need of outside power input. I felt like I was reading the true beginning of the Hydrogen Economy. Using colloidal metals and catalysts he describes reactions that have the potential to produce abundant hydrogen with common metals. Reactions that theoretically regenerate all components except water (which is consumed in the reaction). As he describes, the same result as hydrolysis without the power input.
Let us all hope and pray this man will not be bought out, or eliminated. That this technology will be widely used and spread like wildfire. Hydrogen production that can be turned on and off with the flick of a switch. This should be front page news. This could be the answer for so many of mankind's problems. Energy, pollution, starvation, space travel, etc.
I read it here today, and I tell you it came to my mind. It would figure that Almighty God would make the most abundant compound on the planet (water) as a potential energy source available for us all. All we have to do is share it.
That will be the hard part.
Dear RR
I just saw this topic and read the first page and then the last.
Reading your post above which you wrote in Sept 2006 I could sense your huge level of enthusiasm
which you were able to carry to almost 2 years after. I hope you all the best.
Anyone that has so much enthusiasm on something for so long deserves to be successful.
Meanwhile whatever happened to Linnard? Where is the patent? Is it already granted?
Why no company has made it into a full product already during those years that passed?
Sorry for bothering but I just can not find the time to read all the 26 pages.
Devrim
Quote from: devrimogun on May 24, 2008, 08:29:44 AM
Meanwhile whatever happened to Linnard? Where is the patent? Is it already granted?
Why no company has made it into a full product already during those years that passed?
Dr.Griffin just seems to have dropped out of this whole scenario. His company's website has not changed in a long time and there seems to be no news for a long time also.
My ultimate goal is just to show overunity on this system. If it works, then great; if not, then that is just the truth and I will need to move on to something else. My seeming inability to make reactors that don't have numerous leaks and problems has been the biggest hampering of my goal. I just wish sometimes that I had someone near me who had some decent mechanical skills (welding, etc.) that had some time and ambition to help me out a bit on this project and make up a bit for my incompetence. I believe now that I can do it easily in Plexiglas, but I wanted to move to glass, which has twice the heat transfer rate that Plexiglas has. So I encountered a whole new set of problems that have hampered me and slowed down the progress.
Just the reality. I am working on it one failure at a time.
Thanks for your interest.
Sorry, just a bit of venting, that's all.
vent away! LOL
a couple of leaks you say?
eh, no big deal.
i guess a hair dryer is your best friend for getting everything dry before you "regoop" it.
good luck,
LC
Yeah LC, sometimes I vent like an old lady.
I resealed all the outside joints of the reactor so I should quit my whining and griping: she should be good to go by tommorrow: Memorial Day here in the United States. A fitting day to honor all those who sacrificed and served and are now being used by the energy mongrels for their own greed and corruption. Sad, but I hold our military to one of the highest levels of honor that I know. They serve with honor and duty and bravery. It's just not their fault that our leaders are scum!
Well, I had it running this morning. Gas was being produced at a pretty good clip, but...IT STILL HAS LEAKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I need to take a step back and reevaluatue. It could be that the weight of the glass and electrolyte solution is extremely heavy. (the reactor is very heavy and difficult to move) and is causing the glass sides to bow outward, breaking the seals around the edges and causing the leaks in the corners. I am going to look into how large glass aquariums are built. I bet they have some type of metal frame that keeps the glass from bowing. I seem to recall this from something I read somewhere in the past.
Sorry everyone. Trying my best. Not good enough, apparently.
Never give up! Even silently, I know there are many as me that are are following your progress with great interest. I know from experience that sometimes obstacles may seem huge and discouraging, but in fact don't forget that you already crushed tons of them to get where you are now.
If this reactions are really overunity, I can bet that some leakage it's not the thing that will stop you (and us). Remember that you are motivation many of us, to which a success of yours will be the catalysts to build on.
Keep the good faith!
Great picture edelind :D
It made me laugh, which is what I needed.
I think it is just the heaviness of the reactor that is causing some strain on the joints. Large fish tanks usually (as far as I know) have some type of framework to prevent the natural bowing tendancy. I think this is what I need.
Back to work.
Maybe some steel bracings on the bottom would help maintain shape? Or double up on plexiglass at the bottom? I wish I was there to help. I need some myself! haha! Good luck on your project!
Hi Brian,
Actually, plexiglas on the edges might not be a bad idea. It would help seal and strengthen it.
Good thinking!!!!!!
Dave (RR2)
yeah, your glass is probably bowing enough to create gaps in the adhesive that are allowing the solution to leak out.
it makes sense that it doesnt leak when you fill it with water, but does leak when the reaction starts.
once the bubbles start forming, isnt the whole container "pressurized" in a sense?
yes, a metal frame might help, but what a lot of work for something that may or may not fix the problem.
here is a link to a bunch of info that should help you get some ideas:
http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/diytanksrefugiums/ss/diycustomtank.htm
my guess is that you are going to have to smear a bunch more silicone on all the inside corners, like caulking your bathtub.
also, i think the glass has to be cleaned with alcohol or something before applying the silicone so that it sticks.
one thing you might try is encasing the entire reactor in another layer of either glass or plexiglass.
this would thicken the whole structure.
also make sure it is sitting on a perfectly flat surface.
these are just guesses, good luck,
LC
ppl seem to have fallen in love with waterboys theory at oupower.com
the simplest way to ever get a motor running on water would be a modiied sparkplug/injector called an ELECTROSPARY SPARKPLUG
google : electrospray ionization
the sparkplug acts as an injector and sparkplug , the water is held by capilaryty gets reloaded with amazing stability at very high speed ,( this thing will never break unlike a fuel pump.)
http://youtube.com/user/wwwshark
http://youtube.com/user/elysiumcerulean
as per us patent ########### 7198208
who needs gas intake anyways? water holds hydrogen,oxygen and nitrogen, just round-off the air intake camshaft or weld it shut .This setup needs the vacuum created by the motor to facilitate electrolysis, . Timing must be perfect , as the piston goes down , the fuel chamber gets hit with enough voltage to instantly vaporize the gas .When this thing comes out, its ionized and atomized , the molecules or atoms search to distance themselves (this is a good thing).Next phase ,the piston compresses the ion gas , then zap it again with much higher voltage then was used to turn the water into gas-vapor . then BOOM . Thermal ignition shockwave or w/e you wanna call it . The few drops of water get refilled instantly by voltage , very simple .Exhaust that the steam out and start again. Im not sure if the motor would run cool enough that this would work. The ignition timing is the same , the only that changes is that a second voltage pulse is needed before the ignition in order to blast out the water in the expanding vacuum.
Maybe install a laser in it or w/e , might not even be needed. Ppl have got to thik how to apply it to an engine, not just making lots of bubbles
So what is needed basically ? a modified sparkplug that works perfect ( HARD ), a second pulse (EASY) .... i think thats pretty much it
Here's a quick drawing of a few things you could try, the strips on the inside being the easiest. Just some thoughts.
dankie,
those sound like cool ideas, but you really should start a new thread to discuss them.
i dont mean any offense whatsoever, but this thread is petty dedicated to one experiment at this point, and we really should keep the focus of this thread on that experiment.
i will be checking those links though.
LC
Hi All,
This is just an update on how it?s going. The large glass reactor is a failure. I cannot stop the leaks and I believe either that the reactor sides are bowing too much or that the glass sides are contracting as the temperature drops during the reaction. The sides pull away from the seams and start the leaks. I cannot fix this one and make it work.
I am starting on a new apparatus and hopefully it will solve all these problems, it should be less expensive to build too.
As soon as I have it working I will show a video of it.
I apologize greatly for all the previous updates and hype. I thought for sure it would work, but I was wrong. I won?t bother to post anything until I get something running. That way I won?t waste your time on my failures.
Sweet, can't wait to see it!
good luck RR!
too bad about the glass, but i would never consider that a failure.
you learned exactly what you needed to learn to build one that wont have the same faults.
cant wait to see what you come up with next.
please post your ideas here so we can all feel helpful.LOL
again, good luck,
LC
Hi RR,
I've been following your experiments since day 1 and just wanted to let you know that, although your attempt may have failed this time, I have the ultimate confidence that you have what it takes to see this through. If I had half an ounce of your optimism, strength of character and downright persistence, I'd consider myself fortunate.
Q. Is it possible that you could have crafted, a molded 1 piece vessel? I imagine this would require some sort of flex property to allow for thermal contraction/expansion.....like Pyrex?
Just thoughts ;)
NssB
Hi ResinRat,
There is no such thing as failure, everything is a learning experience. When you post these setbacks, you prevent someone else from making the same mistake.
Regeneration of the zinc as you are producing hydrogen, the switching needs to be every 3 min., that way you are always reacting the regenerated material. There is a solubility issue with the TC because of the cobalt. OK for the electrodes for producing hydrogen but no as good for the regeneration.
I have been working on my low voltage electrolysis system. It runs at less than one volt and 50 ma. I have filed three patents in the last 5 months. None of my patents have been issued .
I have been trying to get capital to bring this technology to the world but no luck as of yet.
I try not to give you any direction in your experiments, I want you to stay as you are, creative and a free thinker. Stay outside of the box as things are always as we were taught in collage.
God Bless
Linnard
Linnard wrote:
There is no such thing as failure, everything is a learning experience. When you post these setbacks, you prevent someone else from making the same mistake.
Very true, and after a couple of decades of research experience I should always keep this in mind. It was my feelings that were catching up with me. I felt a bit guilty hyping up the larger reactor because I was sure it would work out. I just had the impression that I unintentionally let everybody down. It would have been better if I had not played it up so much. I am trying to learn from MY mistakes too.
Regeneration of the zinc as you are producing hydrogen, the switching needs to be every 3 min., that way you are always reacting the regenerated material. OK, the timing was something I was going to be working out, and the short time interval makes sense. By switching so often only the topmost layer of the zinc is probably eaten away in the reaction, then regenerating quickly will help keep the zinc electrodes the same size. This sounds good and something I will use.
There is a solubility issue with the TC because of the cobalt. OK for the electrodes for producing hydrogen but no as good for the regeneration.
The electrodes I am using for regeneration are thoriated tungsten electrodes only 1/16" in diameter. Very small and there is no cobalt involved here. The ones I used in the small reactor showed no pitting and held up well over the 475 hours the reactor ran. I don't think I will have to worry about this then, but I will keep it in mind.
I have been working on my low voltage electrolysis system. It runs at less than one volt and 50 ma. I have filed three patents in the last 5 months. None of my patents have been issued .
I have been trying to get capital to bring this technology to the world but no luck as of yet.
I try not to give you any direction in your experiments, I want you to stay as you are, creative and a free thinker. Stay outside of the box as things are always as we were taught in collage.
The new system sounds great, it might help a good number of projects that are going on in this forum. Any information you are willing to share is greatly appreciated.
God Bless
Linnard
I pray God blesses your work and that it can help us all out soon. We need it badly now. Thanks again for your post, it's good to hear from you again.
NssB wrote:
Hi RR,
I've been following your experiments since day 1 and just wanted to let you know that, although your attempt may have failed this time, I have the ultimate confidence that you have what it takes to see this through. If I had half an ounce of your optimism, strength of character and downright persistence, I'd consider myself fortunate.
Wow, please, I appreciate the encouragement NssB but I don't really deserve it. I just wish this thing would stop fighting me and give in already. LOL! My motivation is simply proving the true worth of this technology. If what I suspect about it is right then this is the answer to overunity. I am just trying to find the truth.
Q. Is it possible that you could have crafted, a molded 1 piece vessel? I imagine this would require some sort of flex property to allow for thermal contraction/expansion.....like Pyrex?
This is a great guess, and yes you are very close to correct. In fact, you will all probably laugh when you finally do see it. (if it works the way I think it will, that is).
QuoteWow, please, I appreciate the encouragement NssB but I don't really deserve it.
Modest too eh ;)
QuoteThis is a great guess, and yes you are very close to correct. In fact, you will all probably laugh when you finally do see it. (if it works the way I think it will, that is).
Well, just seems to me, that with no seals to leak and allowing for thermal variances, it would solve any 'existing' issues. This is not to say it wont throw up any
other problems.
Good luck and I look forward to your next update.
NssB
Hang in there RR, do not feel down, noone here is judging you, thats for sure. We are all hoping that you succeed. ;)
Mark
I guess I just hate the word QUIT!! They'll have to KILL me.
I was finally able to fix all the leaks. I couldn?t give up because the reactor looked too nice to scrap. It has been running a couple of days now and I was waiting to see what would break or leak or fail. Looks like I was wrong and it is working fine.
Regeneration voltage is 0.852 volts at 4 to 5 milliamps.
I don't have a gas rate output yet. I still need to measure it.
Just wanted to let you know I was back in business.
YEEESSSSSS!!!!
I was starting to have hydrogen withdrawal symptoms...LOL!!!
YouTube video of the 2.5 gallon reactor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haHhCm2xPZ4
I'll be posting gas production rates soon. Thanks for your interest and patience. I knew I could get this sucker working.
RR, that is too cool!
it must've been rough to pass by that reactor on your way through your day.LOL
im glad you persevered, i too think it would have been sad to let it sit idle.
good luck as always, and dont be skimpy with the youtube vids! LOL
heres to your continued success,
LC
BTW dave,
the term you are looking for is "camera right". LOL
just havin fun,
LC
Quote from: loosecannon on June 10, 2008, 10:38:35 PM
BTW dave,
the term you are looking for is "camera right". LOL
just havin fun,
LC
Thanks LC, you're right, I mean "CORRECT". LOL!!
I needed a laugh. :D :D
your system sounds much like linnard's own system.
he said his low voltage system was running at less than 1 volt, and about 50mA.
very similar to yours.
not sure what, if anything, that means.LOL
what was he saying in his post about the timing for switching being every 3 minutes?
is this the same switching that you are doing every 6 hours?
just trying to learn here,
LC
Dr.Griffin is presently experimenting with a low voltage powered electrolysis system. What I am doing is completely different and actually uses no power to produce the hydrogen. I am putting the hydrogen through a fuel cell and it is putting a reverse current into the reactor to regenerate one of the electrodes. There is no battery or anyother DC or AC electricity going into this reactor.
That is the difference between what he is doing now, and what I am doing here. I am experimenting with a modification of his original patent of no-power electrolysis. I am trying to show that this system is overunity.
oh ok,
i was under the impression that he was doing the same sort of thing you are.
cool.
continued good luck,
LC
Quote from: loosecannon on June 10, 2008, 10:53:13 PM
your system sounds much like linnard's own system....
what was he saying in his post about the timing for switching being every 3 minutes?
is this the same switching that you are doing every 6 hours?
just trying to learn here,
LC
Sorry LC, missed this one.
He was recommending I switch connections between the regeneration of each of the zinc electrodes every 3 min. Unfortunately, I don't have any way to do that right now, so I need to manually switch it. I can't sit by the reactor all day. I have to do frivolous things like go to work, family stuff, eat, sleep, etc. So I can't sit by the reactor and keep switching the connections. Once I get some output potentials I have someone who has offered to design an electrical circuit that would run off a fuel cell and do the switching. Once I get that circuit I can modify the switching for shorter intervals if I think I need to. Right now I am not sure what that number needs to be. It could be three minutes, so I am doing the best I can right now.
cool.
i am just trying to make sure i am understanding things correctly.
now its time to sit back and watch the gas flow!
i guess i will wish you continued, "gassyness"? LOL
LC
Hi All,
Well it was running fine this morning; and it has been running great for three days. Just long enough to show some pictures, post some youtube video, and get mine and everyone else's hopes up.
Well guess what? I came home from work and found it had sprung not just one leak, but several. I tried one last ditch effort to plug them; but no dice. I must finally admit defeat with this configuration. Into the scrap it goes.
I am going to my next design that I had already started building. It shouldn't have these problems.
Sorry everyone. I figured after a couple of days running it would be fine. I guess I should have waited one more day.
A picture of failure below. Say GOODBYE. Live and learn and keep on chugging.
well, RR, i guess your wife was right!LOL
too bad, now you will never be able to build one inside the house again! LOL j/k
back to the drawing board!
LC
Hi Dave
Thanks for great idea and experiment!
I just read your paper and US Patent 3,984,749.
What You think about an auxiliary (Raney nickel / small hydrogen overvoltage) electrode,
for better zinc electrode regeneration, in your generator?
See US Patent 3,984,749 for details.
Best Regards,
Stef
@LC,
Yes, I guess my wife was right. She was concerned about hydrogen building up in the house, but the busting of the dam (so to speak) would have littered the basement with concentrated potassium hydroxide solution. Her concern was right, but for the wrong reason in this case. Still you are also correct in saying that i may never again build a reactor inside our house. Oh well. LOL!!!
@Stef,
The patent first paragraph description reads:
"What is claimed is:
1. A process for the operation of rechargeable zinc electrodes in galvanic cells with the aid of a residual discharge, which comprises subjecting a rechargeable zinc electrode in a cell after a normal discharge to an additional and residual discharge by way of at least one auxiliary electrode disposed in said cell in the proximity of the zinc electrode, but galvanically separate therefrom, said additional discharge being effected until almost the entire amount of zinc remaining on the anode formed by the zinc electrode, after the normal discharge, has been oxidized. "
This won't help me though. I am trying to replate the zinc as fast as possible without giving it time to oxidize. That is why I have the zinc electrodes close together. As it is being "ionized" into Zn+2 on one zinc electrode, I am trying to get it to replate right away on the other zinc electrode before it reacts with OH- ions from the electrolyte solution to become zinc hydroxide (Zn(OH)2). Once it becomes zinc hydroxide I can no longer get it to replate as zinc, it just ends up plating as zinc hydroxide and kills the reaction once it covers the entire surface of the zinc electrode. So I really don't want to fully oxidize any of the zinc.
Thanks for the attempt to help though.
Hi Everyone:
Airgen website (http://www.airgencorp.com/management_bios.html) is gone.
So is Airgen now history?
Keep an eye out for Linnard's name in the news.
Update: I have finished assembling the new reactor setup and am about to start leak testing. Once I have the unit up and running I will be posting pics.
Thanks for your interest.
QuoteUpdate: I have finished assembling the new reactor setup and am about to start leak testing. Once I have the unit up and running I will be posting pics.
Good news. Looking forward to the update as ever.
I was looking at how you could setup a timer based switching circuit cheaply and effectively using as little power as possible. The very common 555 timer (mosfet) uses tiny amounts of current to operate compared to a standard transistor. I don't have any direct experience of using/designing such circuits. However, I will attempt to design one and post up the plans. I guess from there, anyone else with electronic experience can modify/improve the design.
Again, the idea is to do it very cheaply and utilising as little of the generated power as possible. (no external input)
NssB
EDIT: I have found the following timer only requiring 0.9Vcc. (supply) - Also only has a 74 micro-amp dissipation when idle. If I can find a suitable relay, then setting up a small circuit on a breadboard should be very doable. I'll keep you posted. (http://www.zetex.com/3.0/3-3-2b.asp?rid=112)
kinda sounds like a battery to me....lol
Quotekinda sounds like a battery to me....lol
Well, not quite. Nothing is being stored. Some of the power coming from the cell will power a timer circuit. The whole circuit will act as a switch to enable the switching of the Zinc regeneration at preset intervals. With the Zetex IC in my last post, the supply voltage (i.e the power required from the Fuel Cell), should only need to be 0.9V to drive the circuit.
NssB
There are many configurations which are grouped under the term battery. Not all are "storage batteries" like the ones we are most familiar with. Not all are rechargeable either. If you define the production of energy through the effect of a chemical reaction as being a battery then you pretty much cover all types.
For example, if you take a strip of aluminum and a strip of stainless and suspend them both in a solution of water and sodium hydroxide and then connect the two with a wire you will notice something interesting. The aluminum will dissolve as it is attacked by the solution. As it dissolves hydrogen gas will bubble to the surface. At the same time you can measure a voltage and current between the aluminum and stainless electrodes. So you have to account for both the electrical energy produced by this battery as well as the potential energy represented by the hydrogen gas.
A battery that produces energy through chemical reaction is a primary cell and a battery that stores electricity through chemical action is a secondary cell. What you are talking about seems to be a variation on a primary cell.
Hi all,
In keeping with the spirit of research, I am posting my latest failure so you don't repeat it.
I was attempting to make a unit that was less expensive to build, so I tried to build it out of Mason Glass Canning Jars.
The design I chose was two jars connected with what we call in chemistry a "salt bridge". It is used when designing electrolytic cells to bridge the gap between the anode and the cathode when the two are in separate containers. It is simply there so electrolytes (salts) can pass between the two containers freely. Here mine was a plastic tube that was filled with a cloth strip that was wet with electrolyte solution and allowed the electrolytes to pass freely through the cloth between chambers. Theoretically it should have worked. I believe the distance between the electrode chambers (tungsten/carbide and zinc) was too far for the reaction to occur at a good rate. Also the passage of electrolytes was probably slowed greatly by having to travel through the cloth.
Live and learn, this unit did not work. My next unit will use a gallon mason jar and ALL the electrodes will be in that jar. I will try and separate the hydrogen and oxygen by using a one micron nylon mesh around the zinc electrodes to keep the hydrogen and oxygen separate. This mesh worked in the big reactor so I hope it will work in the new design.
Thanks very much for your interest.
Hey guys,
Been a while since I last checked in but looks like you're still at it! Keep up the good work!
I don't know how feasible this is for the backyard scientist but I was thinking about the connection problem between the tungsten electrodes. Having them resting together while being in contact seemed to work alright but what about a more permanent solution once you figure out what the final reactor design will be? I was reading about tungsten out of curiosity and stumbled onto a method to melt it in what is called an "Arc Furnace". Maybe it'd be possible to melt down some tungsten rods and pour the molten metal into a form around the base of the other rods, forming a sort of comb-looking thing (if any of that makes sense). That would give you a permanent connection for the tungsten rods, extra tungsten surface area and you wouldn't have to worry about the corrosion associated with other materials like the silver solder. But again I doubt that'd be very feasible for anyone not used to working with molten metal and it could be very dangerous due to the extremely high heat associated with melting tungsten (6,000F+). Perhaps once you decide on the final reactor it might be worthwhile to find someone that can do this kind of thing, if it would even result in a performance increase. Seems that a more solid connection would result in better overall performance in the reactor but these are just guesses on my part.
http://www.theodoregray.com/periodicTable/PopularScience/2004/05/1/index.html - link to the Arc Furnace write up. The main page has some interesting info on tungsten and other elements in the periodic table.
Keep on experimenting!
ChaoticSide
Actually, at innovativecarbide.com you can order just about any shape you need. I actually thought about getting this as a flat panel shape to put on the bottom of a reactor and rest the electrodes on, but it would probably be expensive. Other shapes could be custom designed and ordered, probably very, very expensive.
Personally, I can't even imagine what 6000 degrees F is like.
My latest design was waiting for parts that arrived on Monday. It should be up and running in a few days.
Hi Dave,
great work you are doing !
Keep it up.
Surely the salt bridge was a bit too long.
Maybe you can shorten it and just use a paper towel or
something simular and maybe with a bigger diameter and
only about 3 inches long or less...
Maybe if you used plastic jars,
just cut out a hole in each at the side,
put the 2 jars together side by side and use inside the hole
there a cotton towel as the membrane to allow ions to pass
from one jar to the other...
Good luck.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi All,
Here are a few shots of the reactor in assembly.
It will all fit into a 2 liter jar. Tungsten/carbide rods will be affixed around the center cylinder of PVC that has holes all around it. Inside the PVC cylinder will be the Zinc rods. Top has the two ports for the gases. There will be two small diameter thoriated tungsten electrodes for regenerating the zinc rods. All insides should fit neatly into the jar.
I just need for the glue to dry properly.
One more minor detail...I am leaving for a two week vacation in two days. I will begin testing on my return.
Sorry, but I just wanted to show everyone that it is very close to finished.
very cool RR!
i really like your design!
how simple and effective.
have a great and safe trip.
later,
LC
ResinRat;
What you need to switch your recycling current is called a "latching relay". See Wikipedia.
A latching relay's coil conducts current only during the brief instant of relay switching and
does not have any power draw requirement most of the time. It would still need a simple
timer but the timer itself could run at an arbitrarily low power.
Having this timer process be "self powered" may be a product requirement and great for
"it runs itself!" demos, but only "isolation" is required for valid energy balance science
as long as you know what you are doing. In other words as long as the system is isolated
from external power, external powers supplies can be used to power auxillary instrumentation.
You actually could use a chemical process control computer built out of an old PC computer
very inexpensively, but someone understanding digital logic circuit design (the kind of thing
where they teach people to build robots in college) would be required to help you set it up.
Again, you wouldn't want to ship product with a process control computer attached but it
would help you to optimize the control laws for a prototype and then design a custom
controller for the final unit. You are really missing out on *a lot* by not having one...a lot of
the fun too. You may want to compensate by making some preconstructed standardized
protounits available for folks who are willing to tune and optimize the process for you.
:MarkSCoffman
Hi Mark,
What you are describing is beyond my abilities, even to understand it. LOL!!
Wish you were close by, you could help me design it.
Here is a couple of pics with the electrodes all installed and the innerds of the cell assembled. I still need the glue to finish drying. It turned out ok, just like I wanted.
See you all in a couple of weeks.
Thanks for your interest.
http://www.physorg.com/news98556080.html
Purdue researchers demonstrate their method for producing hydrogen by adding water to an alloy of aluminum and gallium. The hydrogen could then be used to run an internal combustion engine. The reaction was discovered by Jerry Woodall, center, a distinguished professor of electrical and computer engineering. Charles Allen, holding test tube, and Jeffrey Ziebarth, both doctoral students in the School of Electrical and Computer Engineering, are working with Woodall to perfect the process. (Purdue News Service photo/David Umberger
This is a good article. These guys are using aluminum and gallium. They suggest that high grade gallium is not necessary. So finding a source of inexpensive low grade gallium would be the one thing to consider.
Hey Resinrat2,
I really like the work you've done, keep up the good work
just thinking-has anybody has thought of maybe using a lawton-meyer setup with this,
might hop up the hydrogen a noch
do the anode and cathode have to be separated?
just a thought..
It's good to be back from vacation, but the video says it all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMZw7oaC8L8
I'm re-sealing everyplace I can think of.
thanks for the vid RR!
i think it might be the threads on the lid that are not sealing completely with the threads on the glass.
it is glass right?
maybe try some teflon tape on the glass threads.
is there a critical relationship between how much solution you have as opposed to how much carbide you have?
welcome back!
LC
I found the leak. It was around one of the rubber stoppers.
One of my biggest problems has been the lack of proper tools. The holes I drilled were not proper round shape, and the rubber against the plastic edge damaged the stopper. I finally broke down and bought what tools I needed.
(Miter box to properly cut the PVC pipe, a new drill that could handle 1/2" drill sizes, some larger drill bits to properly cut the holes, and a drill press.) I am getting rid of the rubber stoppers to hold the electrodes. Improvements are being made as I need right now.
Should be fixed soon.
Just as an update. I thought I could fix the leak around the zinc electrodes, but it turns out that the lid was actually cracked in that area. So it will be a bit of time while I fabricate a new lid with new holes.
Sorry for the delay.
Hey Dave,
Got all my chemicals together and am ready to start... one question tho... why use the two alkalis in the solution as neither plays a part in the reaction? shouldn't you only need one?
I have 25lbs of Sodium Hydroxide and was wondering if it could work on only that? is there any additional benefit in adding the Potassium Hydroxide?
As I see it the strong alkali is only there to permit ions to flow freely as they allow electrons to flow from rod to rod easilly?
Thanks,
Chris
Hi Chris,
You can use either alkali or both. By using both the concentration of the alkali can be increased due to common-ion effect variables. I found that when I used both that the viscosity of the solution became so high that the bubbles had a hard time rising in the solution.
I now use Potassium Hydroxide exclusively and only go to 20-30% maximum concentration. The higher concentration gives you a much higher pH and catalyzes the reaction. The OH- ions do play a part in the reaction, see previous equations in my report; but most of all they catalyze the reaction and encourage it to occur. Without the base, very little or no reaction will occur.
Hi Dave,
Thanks for the quick reply :) I'll give it a try with the Sodium Hydroxide as thats the core fluid in my Alkali Fuel Cells as well so that if any liquid bubbles through into the fuel cell it would do more good than bad.
You're last mixing instructions were:
200ml de-ionized water
40g Potassium Hydroxide
40g Sodium Hydroxide
80ml 20ppm Silver
40ml 20ppm magnesium
add deionized water bringing the total to 400ml
Do I only have to add 80g of the Alkali to get the correct amount now or has your brewing method changed :P
Thanks,
Chris
Sorry, misread your post.
Your numbers are correct.
Good luck, and be sure you have good ventilation and control that exotherm --- Ouch!!
Thanks a Million RR,
Will be starting with small quantities and testing some ideas I have so as not to ruin large quantities of my materials.
Will let you know how it goes once I have something together.
Thanks again,
Chris
FYI... Do NOT mix the silver and magnesium together... add one at a time to the Alkali mix... They react and turn milky white when mixed together alone.
sigh...
Tried a batch today and got a decent amount of gas coming off... but the gas was NOT Hydrogen... It itched the back of my throat but did not have the chlorine aftertaste.
Will try again soon... more slowly this time.
Chris
Hi Chris,
Yes, the colloids need to be added one at a time to the NaOH solution.
The gas coming off the tungsten/carbide electrodes is hydrogen. The irritation you feel at the back of your throat is the sodium hydroxide. I mentioned this in my previous experiments. The sodium hydroxide seems to have a tendancy to slightly rise with the bubbles and get carried above the alkali solution. This can irritate your throat if you breathe it. This does not happen with the Potassium Hydroxide. That is one of the reasons I use Potassium Hydroxide exclusively now.
Once you start directing the gas through a tube to wherever you desire the small amount of sodium hydroxide that rises with the bubbles will sublime on some areas at the top of your container and inside the tube. It washes down easily with water. This does not seem to happen with the Potassium Hydroxide.
Hi Dave,
I have had some success using graphite rods instead of the tungsten electrode... it's the least reactive electrode I could think of...
I need to make sure that the CO2 hungry Sodium Hydroxide isn't reacting or breaking the rods down tho?
Next step is to try a bed of activated carbon! Couple ACRES of surface area might do better than a few square feet of tungsten :D
Chris
Hi Chris,
OOOhhhhh ... introducing carbon rods. Paragraph [0060] of the patent shows the use of a non metal like carbon or sulfur to speed the production of the hydrogen. It gives off a by- product of CO2 as the hydrogen is produced and consumes the carbon.
I remember a video Dr. Griffin put on the net a while back that showed a carbon rod attached to aluminium or iron or zinc or some other metal. I don't remember exactly.
The reactions in his videos were always acid reactions, so probably not a base-carbon cell but an acid-carbon cell.
Yes, I am very interested.
Thanks for your efforts
Thanks Dave,
I always thought as Sodium Hydroxide has been used in common water electrolysis to improve the reaction, I didn't think it would be used if it produced CO2 instead of O2?
If CO2 is in fact coming off the Alkali solution would literally EAT it?
Thanks,
Chris
Quote from: Tacmatricx on July 24, 2008, 02:29:18 PM
I always thought as Sodium Hydroxide has been used in common water electrolysis to improve the reaction, I didn't think it would be used if it produced CO2 instead of O2?
If CO2 is in fact coming off the Alkali solution would literally EAT it?
It produces the CO
2 because it is getting the carbon off of the carbon rod, not just because of the sodium hydroxide. Otherwise it would just produce the O
2 by itself. Hmmmm. This angle may have a difficult time getting it to work.
I have reached the end of my rope. I just did a leak test on my latest reactor. IT LEAKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
This is my sixth attempt at making a reactor out of glass that does not have some type of leak either around an electrode or around a joint once it is pressurized with gas. I have had it. I am throwing in the towel.
This is absolutely rediculous.
I will pay anyone who is willing to put together a reactor that is made out of glass with two 3/8" zinc electrodes exposed at the top, one 1/4" tungsten carbide electrode at the top, two 1/8" thoriated tungsten electrodes at the top, and two gas ports. One for hydrogen and one for oxygen.
What must be kept in mind is that the electodes will shrink once the reactor begins operation and the temperature of the electrolyte solution drops. That means that there must be some type of rubber gasket or compression fitting around each electrode that will shrink with the electrode. Also the reactor must be gas tight so no hydrogen or oxygen escapes outside of the ports.
PM me and I will send you plans, specs, etc.
I have reached my level of competency and I need to take a step back. I am frustrated beyond belief. After thousands of dollars and countless failures I am at a breaking point..
Well I was contacted by someone who has the ability to build my reactor.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Hey RR,
I got a 30mL cell built just to test a few things and have been trying it for the last few days... I am seeing a buildup of non reactive dark particles that stick to the sides of my glass enclosure... I have the regen voltage supplied by an external power source at 0.600V and am switching the zinc electrodes every three hours. The most I have gone without seeing this buildup is a day?
Also the solution I mixed up as per your recipe has precipitated a dark powder at the bottom after sitting for a day or so in storage?
My zinc electrodes have an almost fuzzy coating on them... could I try lowering the voltage until I get a more even coat or is this normal?
Any Ideas?
Thanks,
Chris
Hi Chris,
If you are able please post a picture of your apparatus. The dark particles might have something to do with your solution, did you you deionized or distilled water? If so, it could simply be a solubility issue. I have seen precipitate form in my solutions too. Usually grey in color, sometimes darker. It might be silver kicking out.
Your regeneration voltage is not high enough. You need at least 0.85-0.90 volts and about 5 milliamps to regenerate the zinc and drive off the oxygen. If you are not seeing oxygen coming off the zinc then this is probably due to your voltage being too low. The regeneration can be tricky when you are using external power (DC) type voltage. If you force the voltage too high then the tungsten starts to plate on the zinc. The best voltage I saw in my units was 0.83-0.85 volts. That seemed to drive off the oxygen and give a nice even grey coating of the zinc. Also, try and keep the zinc electrodes close to each other (but not touching) so the zinc can regenerate as quickly as possible from one to the other. This will help minimize the forming of zinc hydroxide.
Without seeing the zinc electrodes I would guess the "fuzzy" coating is zinc hydroxide. The zinc hydroxide gives an irregular "soft" looking coating. This will eventually kill your electrodes once they coat the entire surface. When I used fuel cells they gave me the advantage of having a load-following capability. That is why I used them. The zinc hydroxide is forming because your regeneration voltage is not high enough.
If you can, bump up your voltage to 0.83-0.85 and see if that gets the oxygen coming off the zinc. My past experience indicates that is the case. Don't go over 0.9 volts.
The dark particles on the sides may be ions attracted to the glass. Is it evenly distributed on all sides or are they concentrated around the tungsten (or are you using carbon?) electrode you are using to regenerate the zinc?
This is exciting that someone else is finally trying their hand at this tech. Are you still using the carbon electrode? I am interested in how that is going. It may be the way to go. Carbon dioxide may not be coming off the carbon electrode and I am glad to see that type of thinking (out of the box).
Thanks for your efforts Chris.
Hi Dave,
I'm trying a totally different approach with only three electrodes. I have ONE zinc electrode and two tungsten electrodes.
The way that they are wired is as follows. The Zinc is the negative point for the supply voltage and is also directly connected to the H2 generation tungsten electrode via a copper wire. The second tungsten electrode is the positive point for the supply voltage.
My observations are that the zinc can be both used for generation and regeneration thus reducing the possibility of hydroxides forming and no need for any switching of wires or timing circuits. The basis of this is that a wire can be used for more than a single electron flow and electrons only flow from a negative on one supply to the positive of the same supply.
In my tests the fresh zinc electrode tarnishes at first and then turns a dark gray color while never producing H2 gas from reacting with the NaOH and is always covered in a thick layer of the larger sticky O2 bubbles, while the tungsten generation electrode is always producing gas and the regeneration electrode never produces any gas.
No more switching electrodes :) I have been playing with this approach for a few days now and am defiantly seeing re-plating of something.
Attached is a pic of the cell running (sorry about the quality). this is a 35mL cell with a 6" tungsten electrode. I can't remember the thickness of the tungsten but it's about the size of a graphite center of a standard pencil. The zinc is spiraled around the two rods so that I can see what's going on. The white cloud is hydrogen gas production.
Thanks,
Chris
Hi Dave,
I disconnected the supply voltage, set it to supply 0.840V and reconnected it. The cell voltage is currently at 0.608V and is trickle charging up to that setting from the 0.400V It was set to earlier.
Will let you know how it goes!
Thanks again for documenting the procedure and results, I am doing the same.
Will be testing either carbon or sulfur next once this one works out... tungsten is just too expensive!
Chris
That's interesting, because I tried this approach last year using a AA battery. I stopped doing it because the battery started to get HOT!
Now the AA battery was 1.5 volts, so maybe the voltage was just too high and there was feedback(?) to the battery that caused it to heat up. Maybe your lower voltage will work better?
I was using a battery, no variable resistor to control the output, so maybe (MAYBE) this will work better.
NICE!!!
See if you get any overheating somewhere. (wires, etc.)
Hi Dave,
I have a diode before the variable resistor on the power supply... it cannot reverse feed. If I turn the resistor to the lowest setting... it grounds the regeneration tungsten rod to the zinc rod allowing me to make both rods generation rods.
It has been running constantly for about five days now and is cool to the touch. If you used a rechargeable AA battery or an AA battery and a diode it probably wouldn't have gotten hot as a reverse voltage would be blocked by the diode or recharged the battery? non rechargeable batteries get hot when you try to recharge them. A diode has a voltage drop depending on the type but is generally in the 0.7V (silicon) or 0.2V (germanium) region, stringing them together may get you the voltage you need?
Still getting good production and will let you know what it all looks like tonight.
Cheers,
Chris
See what a little electronics knowledge can do.
I was using a normal AA, not rechargeable battery, so right there you did much better than I. There was no way for me to know that.
This is how I originally wanted to set it up, but again, it was my lack of knowledge that did me in. I abandoned this approach and went for the switching idea. This setup is the best, if it works. As long as the voltage is high enough to properly regenerate the zinc and avoid the formation of zincates then you should be in business.
Put it in a reactor that separates the oxygen and hydrogen and run the hydrogen through a fuel cell to power the regeneration and you will show overunity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THAT is THE dream setup. A closed, looped system that regenerates the zinc, produces hydrogen, and only uses up water!!!
YOU can do this Chris. Yes you can!! Fantastic to see if it works.
Cheers Dave!
Ideally you wouldn't use up anything? If you are efficiently breaking the water molecule using this setup as a catalytic reaction of sorts and you provide an oxygen feed and a hydrogen feed to the fuel cell... your by product is water that could be stored and pumped back into the original cell? no consumables :) I'd rather not have to hear fill 'er up again ;D
My dream is to build a power source that will outlive me :)
Thanks again for this thread!
Chris
One other thing, watch the tungsten electrode that is producing the hydrogen gas. Carefully see if the zinc starts to plate on it. That will mean your voltage is too high for the regeneration and needs to be dropped a bit. I don't know how much because my experiments never went this far, but it is probably around that 0.83-0.85 volts.
Just an educated guess.
This is great to see, hope it works out.
The magnesium colloid in the electrolyte solution helps to regenerate the zinc, but the reaction is a bit too slow to keep up, that is why the regeneration voltage is applied, to help speed the reaction to balance. This is great.
Yes, I hope it does out live you and I LOL!!!
Cheers Dave,
Will keep an eye on that electrode. I am running a micro cell (35mL) to yours to prove that the reactants are not consumed. If I can keep this thing going for a month. I guess that would prove it?
Will be adding Hydrogen Fuel cells to the setup shortly and a test load.
Thanks again,
Chris
Here's a dilution calculator I threw together for all those that had the same problem I had!
It's locked but the password is nothing (enter no password and hit ok) to unlock it.
Chris
Hi Dave,
My power supply is only good for about 150mW not far from H2+Air fuel cell.
The voltage is now at 0.620V and rising slowly. Production is still really good and the cell remains so cloudy that you can barely make out the rods in the middle in the top 3/4 of the cell.
I am keeping a running log on this cell and as I'm using lab gear I have no gas leaks or fluid spills ;) yet...
Chris
Hi Dave,
Have you tried increasing your zinc surface area to produce more gas?
I noticed in all your setups that you are focusing on the tungsten alone, ever try one with more zinc surface area? I only say this because when I turn my cell on... and I have a much higher zinc surface area than tungsten... my tiny tungsten rod erupts with gas and the entire cell is totally cloudy. Then the zinc spiral gets a layer of O2 bubbles and the production of H2 decreases to the point where I can now see the rods. I am thinking that the O2 bubbles are reducing the zinc surface area and slowing down the reaction?
Just my 2 cents.
Chris
Hi Chris,
You might be right about increasing the zinc surface area. That is possible, or perhaps you maxed out your hydrogen production. Increase the number of tungsten/carbide rods and see how the hydrogen output increases. If it doesn't then maybe what you are saying is right. Look carefully at the tungsten electrode and look for zinc plating. If there is none then throw in a few dozen tungsten electrodes and see if the output goes higher. Leave only one tungsten for the regeneration, but jack up the number of tungsten for hydrogen production. See how that increases the hydrogen output.
I don't have a reactor right now, it is being worked on for me, but as soon as I get one I will do this with the fuel cell. What is nice is that the fuel cell has a load following capability. I was afraid to do your type of setup because of the battery heating that I saw during the previous experiment similar to the one you are doing. I didn't want to damage my fuel cell. Now I know this is possible and can have a good possibility of success.
This is cool. I am really excited by your results Chris. This may turn out to be the final piece of the puzzle to make this system work continuously without switching zinc rods for regeneration. I am very, very glad you tried this angle. That is why I wanted help with this project. Someone to bounce ideas off of and share results with. See what has happened in just a short time.
Hi Chris,
I took a snapshot of the page in my notebook when I did the similar setup. Good for a laugh, you can see my comments, "This is how to balance the reaction electrically w/ the fuel cell" and "Causes battery to heat up" and "No good!"
I guess I was wrong LOL!!
Thanks again for doing what you are doing.
Aaaah... Now I see why your battery was heating up... That setup is very similar to mine but you have both tungsten rods wired for production and then added a battery to the apparatus.
If you look closely you have short circuited the battery by directly attaching it in that way... current flows from the battery, up the zinc rod and then directly back into the battery again. All without passing through the electrolyte. We used to do this as kids in school with a quarter and a nine volt battery, we would put the quarter on the battery (shorting the terminals) and secure it with a rubber band and then throw it to a good friend to catch it... much worse than hot potato!!! Both the battery and the quarter were blistering hot!
If you disconnect the wire between the zinc rod and the regeneration tungsten electrode... you have what I have.
Glad to see you going back into your notes :) I think we inspire each other! 2007!!! Didn't realize you have been at it for this long! The end is near my friend ;)
That voltage you gave me is still working well... No precipitate of any kind and the zinc is once again furry :D No buildup on the regen electrode either... will keep a close eye on this.
Cheers,
Chris
Quote from: Tacmatricx on July 31, 2008, 01:30:59 AM
Aaaah... Now I see why your battery was heating up... That setup is very similar to mine but you have both tungsten rods wired for production and then added a battery to the apparatus.
If you look closely you have short circuited the battery by directly attaching it in that way... current flows from the battery, up the zinc rod and then directly back into the battery again. All without passing through the electrolyte.
That voltage you gave me is still working well... No precipitate of any kind and the zinc is once again furry :D No buildup on the regen electrode either... will keep a close eye on this.
Good job at seeing my simple mistake. Very, very nice.
See, it is simple things like this that I easily miss that cause many failures. That is also why I keep the notebook and try to put as many details as I can into it. It is my permanent record of things I have tried in the past. See, once again it has paid off for me.
Adjusting your voltage may be a bit of trial and error. I hope the number I gave you will be the same for your setup as it was for my old one. That was the one that ran almost twenty days. If the voltage is too low then your zinc will form as a zincate on the zinc rod, kind of a blobbish grey "soft" type of coating. That is the best way I can describe it. It will kill your reaction. If the voltage is too high then the tungsten from your tungsten regeneration electrode will plate on the zinc electrode, or the zinc will plate on your tungsten hydrogen producing electrode. Watch for both carefully.
This is very exciting for me to see. You may laugh, but that is the way I am. Simple things please simple minds I guess, LOL!
Hi Dave,
One more question, I am supplying the cell with the 0.840V in the middle of the range but the voltage I am seeing at the cell is much higher.
If I put my meter probes across the cell with the power supply attached it reads over 1V but if I disconnect the power supply and test that, It reads 0.840V...
Which voltage am I to keep in that range? the supply voltage or the overall cell voltage?
Thanks,
Chris
I measured my voltage by placing the probes across the electrodes when the power supply (fuel cell) was attached. That reading should be the target of 0.83-0.85 volts to match what I was doing with my small reactor experiment. So I guess in your case that would be the overall voltage as you defined it.
Hope that helps.
Thanks again,
Dave (RR2)
Hi Dave,
Balancing that voltage with the power supply I am using is proving to be a royal pain. My fuel cells haven't arrived as yet so i'll need to get a decent temporary power supply together.
The previous cell ate itself as the tungsten electrode had a plating over it and the zinc was almost to nothing. Voltage was over 0.9V for too long.
Working on it.
Chris
Chris,
I guess that is where the fuel cell has a bit of an advantage. It only supplies the voltage that is needed and doesn't "press" it forward. It would have helped in this case. I apologize if my advice was misunderstood and caused the plating.
You can buff the zinc off the tungsten by using a metal buffing wheel or a grinding wheel. The tungsten won't be damaged by it at all.
I have seen what you described, and it happened to me a few times before I finally understood what to look for and how to avoid it. There is a bit of a balance here. Too little, or not enough voltage hurts you either way. That is why I found the fuel cell's load following capability very useful for this application. 0.83-0.85 volts should do it.
Hi All,
I have finally been motivated to test the hypothesis that the Linnard Griffin electrolysis process runs endothermic and absorbs energy from the atmosphere that surrounds it. I am sorry to say that I have results that give an opposite conclusion.
I placed within a glass jar reactor approximately 100ml of electrolyte solution. Into this was placed three zinc electrodes and one tungsten carbide electrode. The tungsten carbide electrode and the zinc electrodes were not allowed to touch and the reactor was allowed to stand overnight to equilibrate its temperature.
Starting temperature ----- 72.3?F
I then connected the tungsten carbide electrode to the three zinc electrodes with a copper wire and the system began to give off hydrogen gas.
After a few seconds the temperature rose to 72.5?F and remained there for several minutes.
I then added another tungsten carbide electrode and connected it to the zinc with a copper wire.
After several seconds the temperature rose to 72.6?F where it remained for several minutes.
I then connected a third tungsten carbide electrode to the system. This time the temperature rose to 72.8?F and remained there for several minutes. Finally peaking at 73.0?F.
Room temperature was 72.1?F.This is in my basement, temperature and humidity controlled area.
So this tells me that my hypothesis that the system runs endothermic is incorrect. At least as it is.
Now, perhaps that will change once the fuel cell is added. This will be speeding the regeneration of the zinc in the system. I don't know yet if this would lower the temperature of the electrolyte solution or not, but as it is, the system is not endothermic. It looks slightly exothermic. So it would not be absorbing energy from the atmosphere as it is.
Once I get my reactor back and add the fuel cell I will do temperature studies on its operation to prove definitively whether it is endothermic or not.This will help give an indication as to whether the system can achieve overunity or not.
Thanks for your interest.
Here are a few pics of the new reactor.
It's BEAUTIFUL --------------------------
Few more shots ------------------
Oh by the way, I got it running too.
Video on YouTube soon.
Thanks for your interest.
Also, Chris,
I decided to try your electrode arrangement for the first test. To me it looked great and using the fuel cells gives me a voltage of about 0.80 - 0.85V across the fuel cell, and a voltage of 0.775V across the regeneration tungsten and zinc electrodes.
I guess this is the voltage to shoot for right now.
Video posted soon.
Thanks again Chris for trying your configuration idea. I would have never gone back and tried it if it wasn't for your work.
RR,
that reactor is SWEET!!!!
cant wait to see what it can do.
i am very curious to see what the reactor does at differing ambient temperatures.
outside on a hot day, in the refrigerator, etc...
best of luck to you,
LC
Hi Chris,
I decided to go back to my original electrode arrangement. The use of the configuration similar to your experiment caused zinc hydroxide to plate like crazy on my tungsten-carbide electrodes. I guess 0.77 volts is too high. I don't have a way to control the output of the fuel cell, short of adding extra fans in the circuit to suck out juice, so I am going back to using two zinc electrodes, one for hydrogen production and one for regeneration, and switching them every 6 or 8 hours or so.
So the same thing happened to me, and the fuel cells did not prevent the zinc plating on the tungsten-carbide rods.
I guess you need to go back to your lower voltages and try your experiment that way.
I can, however, add my third and larger fuel cell to this arrangement and perhaps get a voltage going so a circuit can be designed to do the switching of the zinc electrodes automatically.
I will start experiments in that direction.
Hi Dave,
I've had no luck with my configuration. Something is still unbalanced at 0.84V. I'll try it again and the carbon idea but right now I just need to make one that works. I have switched to the two and two configuration and am working on a timer circuit and relay to switch the electrodes every 30 minutes.
Will let you know how it goes :)
Thanks,
Chris
Quote from: Tacmatricx on August 17, 2008, 11:05:29 PM
I've had no luck with my configuration. Something is still unbalanced at 0.84V.
Maybe the voltage, in this configuration, is too high. I still like your idea of the one zinc electrode. Maybe the voltage just needs to be lower to work? I really hate to abandon your idea until it was checked out better. I can't help thinking that there is a correct voltage that would give just the right balance to the reaction and encourage the zinc to replate without "pushing" the plating too far and cause zinc to plate on the tungsten electrode.
I think I will try your configuration, but put some type of variable resistor in the circuit to fine tune the output voltage so I can slowly step it up a little at a time. I just need to see what type of variable resistor would work so that this can be investigated. Any ideas? Something I could buy at Radio Shack?
Thanks for your efforts Chris.
Hi Dave,
Definatly not abandoning the idea... I need to collect more data in the form of current used in the cell relative to zinc surface area. With this data from a working cell I can apply it to the 3 electrode setup.
I am using a three connector 200KOhm pot for my voltage adjustment. I need a smaller pot as well for the fine tuning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiometer
Look at the schematics there under "Theory of operation". Use a 200KOhm pot and a voltage supply of 5V (from a phone charger, the lower the voltage the better), this will allow you to tune to any voltage between 0 and 5V. This way is impossible to accuratly get to a specific voltage easily, I'm working on an easier circuit and will post one when i'm done.
Thanks,
Chris
Hi Chris,
I went looking through my surplus parts and found a nice three-electrode potentiometer (can't even read the numbers on it) that seems like it will do the trick. I hooked it up to a AA battery and it gave me the range of 0 - 1.5 Volts output. Nice. This is exactly what I need.
I will place it between the fuel cell and the regenerating zinc rod and use it to regulate the voltage.
I will need to replace my zinc rods before I get this thing going again.
RR2
Hey RR,
Got two cells hooked up next to each other now... one with the four electrodes and one with the three... I found that the minimal amounts of current used allow me to use a Basic Stamp to control all the switching. It's a hobbyist microcontroller that acts like a mini computer, I can use it to provide exact power and do the switching for me as well. Will let you know how it turns out :)
Chris
Great work, Chris. I keep rubbing my hands in anticipation of what you will find out.
Excellent!!!!
Hi Chaps
I hope to be joining in soon, I am slowly acquiring parts.
I would be interested to here what you think of my cell design.
I have a few things I am not yet sure will work. I am going to use Fiber Glass Tissue as a membrane to stop the gas from mixing.
Also I intend to buy some rubber sheet and cut the gaskets out, my question is will this leak, I will use threaded nylon with nuts to tighten the whole assembly.
I am going to use Tungsten Foil, I have no experience with this stuff yet, and I know its tough stuff and am hoping I can corrugate it to increase the surface area.
For the switching of the electrodes I will use a 1.5v motor driving a 300:1 gearbox and use a cam system made out of 2 cd's and have micro switches attached to cut channels to swap the electrodes every 5 minuets.
My first problem is buying the Colloids, although possible via the internet, this was extremely expensive, I have therefore decided to make my own, I have ordered some pure silver wire and some magnesium ribbon, I have also ordered a TDS meter from china at a cost ?12.70 according to the instructions it measures total dissolved solids including metal ions in ppm(picture attached below).
Again not sure if this will work but I will try it, all I need do is run a current through the electrodes in a deionized water bath and periodically test until I get the desired ppm, lets hope the deionized water reads zero to start with LOL.
Peter
Hi Peter,
Nice job on your graphics and your design idea. It's good to see others contributing here. Your design looks like it could be miniaturized and made small enough to power notebook computers and cell phones, or even larger. I am eager to see how you would build it.
I don't have experience making colloids, and I really don't have any interest in it right now. I would personally rather buy good quality prepared solutions with known concentrations; but that's just myself.
Magnesium metal reacts with water a bit violently, so I am not sure how magnesium colloid is prepared. I did an internet search and some of the colloid generators say that you can make magnesium colloid with them so it must be easy to do.
Please keep us posted here on your progress and any interesting results you discover.
Hi Peter,
The design is interesting, similar to the Alkaline fuel cell designs I proposed earlier in the thread. Never thought of applying the principal to the water fuel cell tho? GOTTA LOVE SKETCHUP!!!
Just make sure none of the gasket material or epoxy used to build the cell reacts with the solution... I had a few weird reactions with all kinds of materials I wanted to use!
The fiberglass membrane is something I was considering as well but opted out as the reaction relies on the fluid mixing to pass ions from one side to the other. Not sure how this membrane would allow that to happen reliably. I am actually considering adding a pump to my cell to force a flow in the cell and see if that gives me anything more when I turn it on as apposed to off in the same cell.
The rubber gaskets should not leak... I would however propose Fluorine Rubber Sheet instead of rubber gaskets for their high resistance to the alkali. Stainless steel bolts and large washers would give you a tighter seal I think?
I am using the thinnest tungsten rods I can find so that I can still sand any crap off from a bad run... foil would be ruined if you had a bad run... I will defiantly be using pure foil (not coated film foil) for my final reactor once I am through the bad cell stages.
I like your CAM idea with the micro switches :) and it would be totally adjustable with the ability to be powered from a fuel cell. At 300:1 there should be more than enough torque.
Good luck with the self made colloids... maybe you can use alcohol with the magnesium and then add water and boil off the alcohol? That way there would be no Mg + H20 reaction?
If you build it... Run PPM tests at intervals to see if this figure changes related to cell output!
Well Done... Build it... It will work! We just need to keep it running!
Chris
Hi RR2 and Chris
Thanks for the replies.
The main reason I wanted to try this design is for ease of manufacture, I wont be using any glue, but the flexibility of this system as well, for instance if I wanted to build Hydrogen and Oxygen storage chambers into the design then I use a slightly larger sheet of Perspex with the cutout's in place, also it would be possible to build a fuel cell into the design making the end product in one solid box shaped device, 2 wires out for electricity and 1 spout in for water, well we can all dream LOL.
I need to do some trials first, as you say the membrane may not work and this is key to my gas not mixing.
My main concern was the leakage of the Lye through the rubber gaskets; I wish I was as confident about this as you seem to be ;) Tests are the only answer although your words have helped me feel a bit more confident about this approach.
I am not too worried about using new electrodes each time, I have been buying Tungsten foil on eBay 99.999 pure quiet cheaply, still need to find a source for zinc sheet in the uk, I am thinking roofing supplies and they also use rubber sheet as well.
My first step is to try making the colloids, I don?t think I will have much trouble with silver, but as you both say Magnesium will react with the water, so I need to try some experiments, luckily I have a PH meter as well so I can see how much Magnesium has been converted to hydroxide, I will try using chilled water first in the hope the reaction with water will be low.
I will report how things go, I will try to jump the hurdles as they approach ;D
Cheers
Peter
Hi Peter,
The use of bolted gaskets is a solid idea for leak prevention... My only comments are to find the volume of 100ml of H2 gas at one atmosphere and the same for O2 and try to build the cell so that as the gas pressure increases, the levels in the H2 and O2 sides of the tank remain level. Also please add a pressure switch so that at x psi the generation connection is broken and will reconnect when the pressure is restored. Wouldn't want an explosion of corrosive liquid and shrapnel!
Run some tests on the perspex, based on the cell size I would reccomend a torque standard for the bolts to keep the pressure even, oversized thickness end plates and large washers to distribute the bolt load on the perspex.
"I need to do some trials first, as you say the membrane may not work and this is key to my gas not mixing." This is just an idea and I cannot confirm or deny that the liquid mixing is key. However I am observing more violent reactions when the elecrrolyte solution has a flow to it. Hope to attach a video to that point when I get a chance.
As for gasket leaks, I am using lab gear in my setup which are all glass with rubber bungs so I have been blessed with no leaks as yet.
Please confirm the foil is actually pure and is not a plastic film coated in pure tungsten like aluminium foil. Have a feeling the tungsten could be separated from the plastic sheet as were common with some tests I did with simple aluminium foil in water electrolysis.
Check with countertop makers for zinc sheeting... it's a common countertop in most places.
Have you looked into the specs of the Fluorine Rubber Sheet? Thats the gasket material I will be using in my production cell.
Good luck with the colloids and the cell... Nice to have another builder in the team!
Chris
This work is inspiring.
I decided to set up a three electrode cell similar to yours. One tungsten/carbide, one zinc, and one very thin (1/16") tungsten electrode to be used for regeneration. I have it wired like your three electrode cell Chris. Voltage is being controlled by using an old Radio Shack electronics kit. (I posted the vid on YouTube) using a voltage regulator circuit.
I have had the cell running with 0.222 - 0.224 volts being used for regeneration. The cell looks very clean and I am seeing the oxygen coming off the zinc. No plating evident as of yet. I am beginning to see the feathery evidence of zinc replating as zinc.on the zinc electrode. Very nice. I hope it stays as zinc and not zinc hydroxide. Time will tell.
It could be that this configuration only requires very low voltage to encourage regeneration, not like the four electrode cell that required 0.80 - 0.85 volts. Very interesting. I think this may be a very important aspect to pursue. The three electrode configuration may be the answer.
Thanks for your interest.
Dave,
You're the one with the most experience noticing the hydroxide... do you have any images of what a good plating looks like and what the zincates look like?
I'd be very interested in what voltages works well as a good base. I can build the electronic controls but I need a solid baseline to build it.
Next step is trying the carbon or sulphur... Should be interesting at the very least!
Chris
Hi Chris,
My three-electrode cell has been running about 10 hours. Voltage is at 0.224 for the regeneration and I am beginning to see evidence of zincates. This tells me I will need to up the regeneration voltage for the next experiment. I will see if I can get a good picture, but the best way to describe it is that it is very irregular and blobbish. It also is a slightly different shade of grey. In contrast, the zinc replating gives a smoother appearance.
If zincates form it will eventually cover the entire zinc electrode and kill the reaction. So even if you are not sure about the zincates, they will make themselves known when the reaction stops. LOL. I have a couple of zincated electrodes from previous experiments; I will see if I can get a good picture of them as well.
I think I will mix up fresh solution and try this again at a voltage of about 0.5, this should be a good middle ground between 0.22 and 0.85. From there I will see which direction to go.
I want to concentrate on this direction first because it is the most promising for the simplest electronic control running off a fuel cell.
Good job, Chris!
OK, over the last couple of hours I have been slowly ramping up the regeneration voltage. At the present time I am at 0.830 volts, and I plan on leaving it at this setting and letting it run. The zincates just fell off the zinc rod and a new coating seems to be forming. Not sure what it is yet. The hydrogen gas is pouring off the tungsten/carbide electrode, but I don't see any zinc plating on it so far. Hard to tell because there are so many hydrogen bubbles coming off that it is hard to see the surface of the electrode. I am hoping oxygen is coming freely off the zinc rod, but it is very hard to tell.
At this point I don't want to go any higher in voltage so I will see what happens now.
I will keep you posted.
Oh, my camera battery died, it needs a couple of hours to recharge; then I will post pics.
Hi Dave,
Thanks for giving the configuration a try! I was about to try the lower voltages but have had a few cells in the 0.83 to 0.84 range without success. Usually the zinc ends up totally eroded. I think there is a current in the electrolyte flowing from the positive regen tungsten to the generation tungsten because it is a less resistive path than the zinc? May need to add a few ohms of resistance to the connection between the zinc and the generation electrode to make it prefer the zinc path and force zinc plating on zinc?
One other idea I had was to pulse the regeneration voltage to allow strong erosion and replating at intervals while producing H2 the whole time? you could switch the regeneration tungsten between a positive source and a direct connection to the zinc to allow it to be used for both generation and regeneration. May also allow any zinc plating on the regen electrode to react off?
Let me know what you find!
Chris
Hi Chris,
This cell at 0.83 volts is running fine but I think there is evidence of zinc starting to plate on the tungsten-carbide electrode.
I am going to drop the voltage to around 0.7 volts and see what happens.
I will keep you posted.
Hi Dave,
Through my charging and discharging experiments with different cells, it was acting like a battery but when discharging and charging it would hang for the longest time at 0.640V
Could be the sweet spot to keep it trickle charged? You may have to either stabilize it there or go to slightly below 0.7V
Chris
Hi Chris,
So far I've kept it at 0.830 volts for several hours. It looks like the zinc is replating, but I think it's on the cusp. It almost looks like the oxygen is not coming off enough and the zinc is replating in an almost hybrid of zincate and zinc. I think I need to bump up the regeneration voltage a bit more, but I know for sure the zinc will be plating heavily on the tungsten carbide hydrogen producing electrode then.
So your idea of using a resistor between the zinc and the tungsten/carbide electrode (hydrogen producing) would help to prevent the plating, but I don't want to stop the hydrogen reaction.
My electronics kit has a series of resistors that span from 100 ohms to 470K. I need some help in choosing what resistor to slip between the tungsten carbide and zinc electrodes to prevent the plating of the zinc. How do I do this?
I need a bit of advice here.
Thanks for your help in advance.
Pictures of a zincated electrode and the electrode in my present cell.
See how the zincated electrode is bumpy and irregular. A zinc plated electrode would be smooth with some small feathery metal covering the outside of the electrode. The electrode in my present cell shows almost a hybrid between the two. That is why I can't lower the regeneration voltage. I need to bump it up a bit.
Present electrode. Kind of a hybrid between zincated and not zincated.
Hi Chris,
The smallest resistor I have is 100 ohms, and when I placed this between the zinc and tungsten/carbide electrode the reaction virtually stopped. So what I have won't work.
I stopped the reaction and visually examined the tungsten/carbide electrode and was pleasantly surprised to see no zinc had plated on it. So I started the reaction back up and increased the regeneration voltage to 0.85 - 0.90 volts. I still don't see much oxygen coming off the zinc electrode though. I am thinking that the hydroxide is being consumed.
I will let this run until tommorrow, then I will start a new cell with fresh solution and crank it to 0.9 volts right at the start, maintaining this voltage throughout the experiment. I want to see if I can get the oxygen to come off freely, just like the hydrogen.
Hi Dave,
You need to measure the resistance from one end of the zinc electrode to the other end and record it, then compare it to the tungsten electrode. Basically the easiest path is the one that will be plated. if you can make the tungsten the least preferable route then you should be ok.
To reduce the resistance... place resistors in parallel. Two 100ohm resistors in parallel equal 1 50ohm resistor.
I will make my measurements tomorrow and let you know what resistance I am using.
Chris
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the little bit of basic electronics knowledge, I will play a bit with the parallel resistor setup.
My voltage has been steady at 0.89 - 0.91 volts and I measured the draw at only 1.48mA for the regeneration. This is consistant with my previous reactor experiments. The draw for the regeneration was always small at about 0.85 volt and around 4 - 5mA; so these numbers don't look out of line.
I would really like the regeneration voltage to be about 0.95 volts to encourage the oxygen to come off so I will need some type of resistor setup between the T/C and zinc. That is a great idea you thought up. So simple, when you think about it, but it never occured to me.
The gas is coming off at a good rate so far. I will keep you posted.
Hi Chris,
I am not at home right now, but last night my apparatus started an odd behavior. My voltage is set at 0.90 volts for regeneration and the hydrogen is flowing off the tungsten/carbide electrode, but it is starting to pulse out the hydrogen gas. By that I mean there is a period of 30 seconds or so where the gas output slows down to a crawl and very few bubbles are produced, then it suddenly surges with hydrogen gas coming off at a fast rate, then it slows down again and repeats the cycle. It has been doing this all night (about eight hours) and was still doing it when I left for work this morning.
It could be that it is dying and on its last leg of hydrogen production. The surface of the zinc electrode looks like a mixture of zincated and non-zincated metal.
Well my voltage has been all over the map with this cell, and I tried quite a few different procedures. So my new cell will have a starting point of 0.95 volts constant regeneration from beginning until it stops. Then I will try different voltages and record everything I see.
Hi Dave,
I have two cells running right now, trying both configurations.
I have placed a 2.5Ohm resistor across both zinc tungsten junctions and this seems to be working well... I have my supply voltage set to 1.2V and the cell is running between 0.639V and 0.640V until it charges and then I expect it to jump to over 1V. I am seeing good gas production on the zinc electrode and the tungsten, while not producing as much gas as before is chugging away at approx 50% of what it was. Looks stable and will try to keep the voltage jst low enough so I am not getting any gas coming off the regeneration tungsten electrode.
Will let you know how it goes.
Chris
Nice Chris,
Eyeball the gas rates as best you can. You want that 2:1 ratio of hydrogen coming off the tungsten to oxygen coming off the zinc.(I guess I just stated the obvious). I am glad to hear you are getting gas off the zinc. This is the key to the whole objective and it makes me glad that you are able to do this. If the gas doesn't come off the zinc at a good enough rate then you are just forming zincates.
Well my cell is at a crawl right now. I am going to start a new one like I stated. I couldn't get to it today because I was too busy. I am working long hours now, and I am going to a class at my local college during the day, so my day is getting longer. Probably by Thursday or Friday.
I am glad you are doing your experiments. This should be very interesting!
Hi Dave,
I have to say I'm really impressed by the little cell I have built running in an 18ml test tube. The zinc electrode is producing a good quantity of gas and I have tuned it to a point just below where the regeneration tungsten starts to produce bubbles. It's stable at around 0.98V @ 0.2mA at the moment and the zinc has formed a nice even coat without the usual irregularities.
Gas is coming off at a decent rate but not high enough to cloud the cell like the original shorted circuits now that I have the resistor in there.
Will keep you posted,
Chris
Catalyst for water oxidation adopted from plants: a means for energy-efficient production of hydrogen?
http://www.physorg.com/news138873713.html
khabe
Thanks for the article khabe, wouldn't this be the ideal.
I wonder if an electric car in the future could have this type of system installed all over on the outside of its body?
That would be nice indeed.
Hi Chris,
Looking good buddy. I hope your cell runs and runs and runs.
THAT I would LOVE to see!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hi Dave,
Will post pics tonight. I checked it this morning and couldn't think of anything to change so I just sat there staring at it :D
Running clean as a whistle and replating is occuring evenly across the electrode while also producing gas evenly.
Chris
Quote from: Tacmatricx on August 26, 2008, 10:42:22 AM
I checked it this morning and couldn't think of anything to change so I just sat there staring at it :D
:D Great to read that. It made me laugh too.
Chris,
Just a couple of thoughts on what direction I am going to be working on in the near future. I would first like to duplicate your results and get a stable cell going for a period of time. If the initial bugs are worked out, then I will shift to my 2 liter reactor and start using your configuration and voltage and see if the larger unit can be adjusted to use this system. I have a five watt fuel cell that I can run off the gas so I can achieve the higher voltages you are using. The remaining extra power would be the overunity.
The thing that is always on my mind is if the electrolytes are being consumed. Are we just burning up the OH- ions? Theoretically the electricity should be regenerating them, along with the colloids. So I need to find a way to monitor the pH closely. That will be one of my goals for the upcoming experiments. I have a pH meter, but getting it into the cell for a reading would require breaking the seal each time.
The first few experiments will be on open cells, so that pH I can monitor more easily.
That's my plan for now. Good luck with yours.
Dave
Hi Dave,
How many OH- Ions are present in an 18ml cell :) If it contunies at the current production, It should be dead in a day or two MAX. If it runs for a week maintaining production... I would assume that the materials are constant.
The larger 5W fuel cell may not provide more voltage and you may need to connect two small cells in series to double the voltage. The Wattage consumed by the regen is in the range of 0.1W. That 5W cell could easilly regenerate 50 cells!
I have a bottle of phenophalin solution, 1molar hydrochloric acid and a burette... not as cool as a ph meter but it will work :P so I will start confirming my PH as well at the beginning (I still have a large amount of the electrolyte in storage that was used in this cell) and end of this cell and let you know. If you will be running an open cell the hydroxide at the surface may start absorbing CO2 from the atmosphere and becoming inert?
Good Luck!
Chris
Hi Chris,
Your electrolyte solution should have a good concentration of OH ions to draw on. If the ions are regenerating during the cells operation, but still not able to fully keep up with their consumption, then the cell will still run for a long time. It will just gradually run down as it continually loses base. That is why monitoring it with a pH meter (or in your case with a standard acid titration) will show a gradual drop.
Honestly, I don?t think the carbonic acid will hurt the cell. The constant hydrogen flow will keep the liquid?s surface protected from carbon dioxide and atmospheric gases. I do the same process in the lab by bubbling nitrogen through my reaction solutions, though hydrogen does go straight up. There is a constant positive pressure above the liquid surface; but it doesn?t hurt to still keep your thought in mind.
To me this is such a unique system of energy interactions; Chemical, Thermal, and Electrical Energies all interacting together in a complex ballet. Using the fuel cells make it self-contained and self-regenerating. To me, it is an absolutely cool system.
Please keep me posted on how your unit?s operation progresses.
Dave (RR2)
Hi Dave,
Will let you know if I notice any changes tonight when I next see the cell. I like the idea of N2 bubbling to keep the other gasses at bay, CO2 is a heavy bastard and would easilly displace the H2 in our case... can't think of any heavier gas we could use other than something like Halon?
If my calculations are correct... 30ml is exactly two tablespoons of electrolyte... I should be able to test in mine what would take longer in a larger cell? If I can keep a two tablespoon cell running for a week or a month... It's gotta account for something :)
Will be posting pics tonight.
Chris
Quote from: Tacmatricx on August 26, 2008, 04:28:09 PM
If I can keep a two tablespoon cell running for a week or a month... It's gotta account for something :)
What you are doing accounts for very much. I really think your configuration holds a great deal of promise in making this system work. Yes, if you can keep it running a long time then Linnard should give you more than a pat on the back.
Always on my center focus is the potential a working energy technology has in freeing humanity. Whatever it takes, I want something to succeed in this direction. It is our only hope, physically, to avoid a great deal of suffering in our future. We need to pray with all our might, but we still need to do the elbow work. I personally don't care except that all I want is for this, or some other technology, to succeed and not be buried.
It's time I started contributing as well.
Hi RR,
She's still running with no changes! other than minescule voltage changes... I see no reason to touch it at the moment.
Here are the Pics as promised...
Graveyard... Previous zinc electrodes eaten to foil
H2 Gas... Shows H2 production when tilted, only way to get a decent pic
Regen Side... Shows color of the zinc electrode which has been running now for three days and does not appear to have erroded
Tablespoon reactor... Single test tube design with two 5Ohm resistors in parallel
Duplicate Post. please Delete
Duplicate post, Please Delete
Quote from: Tacmatricx on August 27, 2008, 08:57:51 AM
Hi RR,
She's still running with no changes! other than minescule voltage changes... I see no reason to touch it at the moment.
Tablespoon reactor... Single test tube design with two 5Ohm resistors in parallel
Tacmatrix;
That's fantastic! There is not much room in there for any reaction exhaust products in there, is there.
A couple of questions:
(a)Does it seem to be running at room temperature? or is it endothermic - refrigerating it's environment?
Maybe you could keep checking for a delta to room temperature. (b)Is that castolite plastic at the bottom
of the test tube to keep the elements aligned? - If it is I wonder if you could put a sealent like RTV silicon
sealent over top of it in the next one. I'm wondering if maybe the reaction is getting to the carbon of the
plastic in these reactors and using it for fuel. There is such a tremendous apparent energy imbalance
in this reaction.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Hi Mark,
The cell is made using the following:
Pyrex Test Tube,
Lab Rubber Bung
Tungsten electrodes
Zinc electrode
Shrinkwrap - Red and Blue
Standard Cable ties to separate the electrodes, hold the electrodes together in alignment and to breach an airspace next to the bung to allow gas to escape.
Wax cord tied around to mark the electrolyte level
(a)Does it seem to be running at room temperature? or is it endothermic - refrigerating it's environment?
Maybe you could keep checking for a delta to room temperature.
I have done basic tests where I placed the reactor in a water bath and monitored the temperature against an identical bath with no reactor. No temperature difference was observed... It remained at room temperature.
(b)Is that castolite plastic at the bottom
of the test tube to keep the elements aligned? - If it is I wonder if you could put a sealent like RTV silicon
sealent over top of it in the next one. I'm wondering if maybe the reaction is getting to the carbon of the
plastic in these reactors and using it for fuel. There is such a tremendous apparent energy imbalance
in this reaction.
It's all cable ties which I have used as spacers over and over with no discoloration and apparently no interference in the cell.
Can't explain how or why this all works any better than the Linnard Patent of the reaction. It's entirely balanced with the application of a small current to keep the zinc plated. It behaves similar to a catalyst in that the materials are not consumed but dislike a catalyst in the fact the materials directly react.
Chris
Hi Chris and Mark,
Just FYI along these lines.
The test cell I had built to mimick your setup never achieved a state of being endothermic. Every measurement I made with a digital thermometer indicated that the test cell was always running approximately ONE degree (F) above room temperature. These were side by side direct measurements in my temperature and humidity controlled basement.
This disappointed me a bit because I expected that once the zinc was being regenerated that the temperature of the electrolyte solution would drop below room temperature. This never happened.
So my previous hypothesis that the system runs endothermic was incorrect. At least with this three electrode set up.
The old four-electrode setup may act differently. It may be endothermic, but I never took the opportunity to carefully measure that property. This is something I planned on doing with the 2 liter reactor.
Thanks for your interest,
Dave(RR2)
Hi Dave,
My setup is also in a basment and the temperature is always 26 Degrees C. I was unable to replicate your exothermic test? My test read identical using a digital thermometer over a few days of usage?
I'm building yet another cell bringing me to two three electrode cells and one four electrode cell to test a few other ideas while leaving the other two running.
The Tablespoon cell is still ticking with no visible changes.
Chris
Hi Chris,
I was going to put a resistor between the zinc and the tungsten-carbide hydrogen producing electrode like you did, but I was thinking of using a smaller resistor so the hydrogen gas can be produced as fast as possible without the zinc being allowed to plate. You said you are using a 2.5Ohm resistor; do you think a smaller one would work better? What about a variable resistor there instead so it could be fine-tuned?
I really like your idea. Can you recommend some part that would fit the bill?
Thanks,
Dave (RR2)
Hi Dave,
I saw a buildup of particles in the bottom of the tablespoon reactor and in placing the third cell into the setup caused the voltage to drop in the tablespoon reactor. This caused the entire plated surface to sheer off and short all three cells.
I shook the crap out of the cell causing all the shearing to break up in the bottom of the cell and put it back into production without opening the cell or making any changes with the hopes of recovering it. I have the third cell designed to test an idea to prevent any buildup at the base of the cell.
As for the resistance... both the tungsten and zinc electrodes have and end to end resistance of 0.003 Ohms in my setup. By adding a 2.5 Ohm resistance I am making the plating on the zinc 834.3% more preferable to plating on the tungsten while still allowing the generation to continue. I wanted to test this with this higher resistance as I mentioned earlier in this thread that shorting out a chemical car battery causes degradation leading to total breakdown in the cell. This may be similar in electrochemistry to a lead acid cell and I wanted to try to introduce a load to prevent zincate buildups while allowing us to increase the voltage over the 0.9V limit.
A smaller resistance would be preferable and I want to get to that stage once I have tested this way... less chance of damaging the cell at least...
Chris
I do have a small variable resistor that I found in my spare parts. I don't know what size it is but I could give it a try and see if I can play with the hydrogen output. This would probably work OK for what I am trying to test for.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on August 27, 2008, 02:43:47 PM
Hi Chris and Mark,
Just FYI along these lines.
The test cell I had built to mimick your setup never achieved a state of being endothermic. Every measurement I made with a digital thermometer indicated that the test cell was always running approximately ONE degree (F) above room temperature. These were side by side direct measurements in my temperature and humidity controlled basement.
This disappointed me a bit because I expected that once the zinc was being regenerated that the temperature of the electrolyte solution would drop below room temperature. This never happened.
Dave(RR2)
ResinRat2;
and
TacMatricx
Yes, RR, Thanks, I acknowledge what you said, just doing some verification.
In college chemistry we learned that all reactions have an energy balance. Either the chemical
reactants provided chemical potential energy, which when they ran out stopped the reaction or
energy was provided externally, like by electrical current, in either case the reaction would also
stop if reaction byproducts (exhausts) built up in the solution. Just like a Perpetual motion
machine that will break down or wear out, side reactions from contamination can be expected
to build up in the Linnard system. What is suprising is that the two reaction products have a
rather large combustion energy between them and also an ignition energy between them and
that means they are a fuel and oxidizer pair.
Catalysts lower the reaction energy barrier between reactants but do not supply
the chemical potential energy to make the reaction proceed. So where does
the extra energy of this reaction come from? Endothermicity was the last hope
of explaining the reaction in usual terms. That leaves us with an explanation of
an "exotic" energy source powering this reaction.
While the endothermic explanation would be more theoretically satisfying. An
exotic energy explainantion would make the the reaction much more valuable,
much more ZPE like and a much better potential as an energy supply competitor
to conventional systems. Of course if is it getting it's reaction energy somehow
from a more mundane source it's value drops significantly, even though it might
still have some valuable to someone maybe trying to reform something like coal
slurry to hydrogen + CO2 or something. So I doubt that it has no value and it
appears as it has significant value.
---
I as you, am not too exited by the prospect of having armatures or hobbyist trying
to store large amounts of hydrogen, even though I would be willing to purchase
a commercial hydrogen storage subsystem - hopefully fully debugged. I am
equally non-exicted by the concept of burning hydrogen gas in an ICE internal
combustion engine. So I am generally awaiting the automotive mass production
of hydrogen fuel cells to bring the price down and eliminate the need to store
hydrogen. Once this happens, I assume these HHO production systems are
really going to take off. As I have said in another post 16KW vehicle fuel cells
are ten times bigger than the 1.5KW continuous part of the demand for electrical
energy that the average home consumes. (excluding variable heating energy).
So I am continuing to be interested in what you and others are finding with this
Linnard (like) system. And I am definitely hoping for it's success. Good work
so far!
:S:MarkSCoffman
Hi Mark,
I agree, the endothermic possibility of this system is what appealed to me and it gave a conventional explanation for the source of the system's energy. I guess I am not like the majority of the researchers on this site who have the hope of tapping ZPE. I don't think it plays any role in Linnard's system. I just think this system is an overall conventional reaction that is complex because of the high concentration of reactants due to the use of colloidal minerals. That's all.
I saw evidence of the endothermic nature of the reaction by feeling the coldness of the electrodes during the reaction, and also the coldness of the electrolyte solution when the hydrogen production was speeded up using a battery. The temperature of the solution dropped, but I never actually measured it. Then I was disappointed by the finding (not duplicated by Chris' testing) that the solution did have a higher temperature (about one degree F) than room temperature.
After thinking about this for a while I have come to a hypothesis that perhaps the electrolyte solution is warmed slightly, but that the endothermic nature of the reaction shows up in the physical coldness of the electrodes. This means that the electrodes are the actual physical material that absorbs the energy from the atmosphere around the reaction vessel, and transfers that energy into the reaction. That would explain what is happening. I just don't know how to test this. I think if I put a temperature probe against the parts of the electrodes that are sticking outside of the reaction vessel and it shows a temperature colder than air temperature, then this would be evidence that this is what is happening.
Just ideas that are running through my head. I still need to find a reliable way to test this.
Thanks for your input.
Dave(RR2)
Hi Chris,
I was examining the electrodes from this latest experiment and noticed that the tungsten-carbide electrode had zinc plated on it, so the voltage above 0.9 volts appears to be a no-no for regeneration, unless some type of resistor is put between the tungsten carbide and zinc rods. The thing that surprised me was that the tungsten rod used for regenerating the zinc also had zinc plated on it. Could there have been a back voltage that pushed the zinc back toward the regenerating tungsten rod. Apparently so.
So, I will start a fresh cell with a variable resistor between the zinc and tungsten carbide electrode and use 0.90 volts as a setpoint for regeneration and study the long term effects there. I really want to see the oxygen come freely off the zinc rod.
This is very interesting. I can't help but anticipate that there is an "ideal" voltage setting that will accomplish the regeneration of the zinc and not on the tungsten carbide electrode.
Hi Dave,
Regarding the measurement of the electrode temperature... I am presently experimenting with different designs of solar water and air heaters and have been eyeballing the new non-contact infra red thermometers that are offered all over eBay. I think one of these would help me spot changes of efficiency in my designs. I don't have one yet, so I have not been able to confirm this but... since it works with an infra red laser, I wonder if it couldn't shine the laser right through the electrolyte and get a reading off the submerged electrode?
The units on eBay claim an accuracy of about plus or minus 2 degrees centigrade, so they are not exactly lab quality, but still you might be able to get useful data.
I haven't thrown my 2 cents in here for a long time, but I read nearly every day. IMO of all the different project threads presented on this whole forum, I think this thread holds the most promise for a true breakthrough toward releasing us from the grip of the energy giants. Like you, I don't put much stock in the ZPE. I also don't envision running a conventional ICE off of the output (although I do hope engines specifically designed to use HHO will be developed.) My excitement is more geared toward scaling the cell up, way up, and using the output to power a stationary power plant for an off grid home.
Even if it turns out that it is easier to just replace the zinc electrode now and then, hell, zinc is cheap and plentiful. A whole lot cheaper than black gold!
While I'm spouting my opinion, I think that the output from this cell may the closest thing to "free energy" we'll see unless someone manages to contain fusion... lol. Anyway, my hat is off to you, Dave, for your dogged perseverance and determination.
Hi Davetech
I have one of these thermometers, the better one to buy has 2 lasers that cross to give you the optimun distance for measurement, in my instructions it says it will not penetrate glass but instead read the surface of the glass temperature.
Hope that helps
Peter
Opps... oh well. As RR2 would say "Now I know another way not to measure the temperature of a submerged electrode!"
Thanks Peter.
Perhaps one of those indoor/outdoor thermometers with the external wired sensor? The sensor could have a glob of silicone heat sink grease between it and the electrode and then a piece of heat shrink tubing shrunk around it?
LOL, thanks for trying anyway DaveTech,
It's really Tacmatricx (Chris) who has given a new direction to follow right now. I set up a cell based off his research. It has the three electrodes with variable resistors between the zinc regeneration electrodes and the hydrogen producing electrodes. If this research cell works out it could signal an important finding.
Below are a few pics.
My regeneration voltage is set at 0.95 volts right now, and the voltage flowing between the zinc and hydrogen producing tungsten/carbide electrode is lowered to 0.310Volts through the variable resistor. Hopefully this will prevent zinc from plating on the tungsten carbide electrode.
I have my fingers crossed. I hope this works.
Just an update:
The reactor has been running about two days now, at 0.95 V regeneration and about 0.280 V between the zinc and hydrogen producing electrodes. I noticed a zinc plating was starting to form on the tungsten/carbide electrode and it almost looked like tungsten was plating on the zinc electrode. This tells me that the voltage is too high for regeneration, so I disconnected the connections, shook off the zinc electrode to get the tungsten "threads" off, and let the hydrogen producing electrode and zinc electrode run connected together for about an hour. This allowed all the platings to be removed, then I set the connections back together and dropped the regeneration voltage to 0.9 V.
The hydrogen gas is barely coming off now, and this is making me think that this may not work as well as I thought. The resistor between the zinc and hydrogen producing electrodes is really slowing the hydrogen production down. I don't want to bump up the regeneration voltage because of the plating on the zinc. I don't want to let the gas hydrogen gas come off faster either because of my concern that zinc will plate on the tungsten carbide electrode.
I was wondering how your experiments are going Chris. Are you seeing similar results to mine? Just curious.
I am going to try a few other ideas on this too.
Thanks for your interest.
Hi Everyone,
Dr.Griffin sent me this picture of a micro-reactor he built. If you look closely at the picture you can see the gas pouring off the electrode. He just wanted to show some of his progress.
Thanks for your interest.
Hi Chris,
Just an update on my research.
At this point in time I am trying a regeneration - then non-regeneration setup. I am using your setup with one zinc electrode but I removed the resistor between the hydrogen producing electrode and the zinc electrode. The gas is coming off at a good rate now, and I am regenerating the zinc on and off every eight hours. This way only a thin layer is being regenerated and then worked off. It also seems to be preventing the plating from the zinc onto the T/C electrode.
I have settled on 0.9 volts for regeration. I am going to let this configuration proceed and record any observations I see.
Also, someone mentioned to me that a configuration could be designed to use the pressure that is produced from the hydrogen gas to operate a small pressure-switch to do any electrode connection switching or turning the regeneration on and off. This is certainly free energy because the gas can be used to produce electricity after it is recovered from the switching. It could even be used on the previous four-electrode design for switching if we need to go back to it.
This system is looking more and more favorable for achieving overunity.
Thanks for your interest.
Dave (RR2)
Hey RR,
Sorry to have dropped off the planet!
That sounds like an interesting idea you have there that could be switched by a simple relay... I think i'll give it a shot as it would get rid of the resistors that crap out the massive gas generation i'm used to.
Will give it a crack this weekend and let you know.
Cheers,
Chris
Hi Chris,
If you can give it a try I would appreciate that. Let's see if you can duplicate my results.
I think it looks pretty good from my end so I will plan on using this type of setup in the larger reactor. I am building a mechanical timing switch right now that will be running off the fan motor. I think I will set it up to switch every hour from regeneration to non-regeneration mode, then back again. In a continuous loop. That way the switch is running off the fuel cell and the unit is just producing a continuous stream of hydrogen gas.
I appreciate your efforts on this Chris. You helped to give this project a new direction and a new life.
It will feel good to get the larger reactor back in operation.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on September 10, 2008, 06:46:33 PM
I think it looks pretty good from my end so I will plan on using this type of setup in the larger reactor. I am building a mechanical timing switch right now that will be running off the fan motor. I think I will set it up to switch every hour from regeneration to non-regeneration mode, then back again. In a continuous loop. That way the switch is running off the fuel cell and the unit is just producing a continuous stream of hydrogen gas.
@ALL,
no need to reply, but someone at some point should try varying the "duty cycle" of the timer. That is the percent of time it is "on"
versus time it is "off". More than likely it is currently 50%<->50%. The duty cycle percent should match the reaction rates to try to
keep the re-plate reaction centered over the metal ion concentration in the electrolyte. It could very well be that the duty cycle is more
important than the absolute time. If the re-plate state is held onto too long it could cause abnormal or undesirable side reactions to
occur over time.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Quote from: mscoffman on September 10, 2008, 07:55:05 PM
...someone at some point should try varying the "duty cycle" of the timer. That is the percent of time it is "on"
versus time it is "off". More than likely it is currently 50%<->50%. The duty cycle percent should match the reaction rates to try to keep the re-plate reaction centered over the metal ion concentration in the electrolyte. It could very well be that the duty cycle is more important than the absolute time. If the re-plate state is held onto too long it could cause abnormal or undesirable side reactions to occur over time.
:S:MarkSCoffman
I agree Mark, but the only way this would be determined is experimentally. Once I get the larger reactor going with the timer I will be doing trial and error tests on the regeneration timing. It will probably take some time before we determine the ideal timing cycle.
I have read over the first 3 pages of this thread and have managed only today to get a full copy of Linnard's patent.I am a chemist(B.S.) and of course am very interested in all that is going on in this thread.Safety is always a top concern here.I do know of a system to get only H2( through formation of a metal hydroxide).Two metal electrodes of iron(most metals,not copper,will do) are put into a saltwater solution.Then a small electric current is put across the electrodes and H2 gas boils off both electrodes.The oxygen does not come off as a gas but is tied up as a metal
hydroxide(a solid powder which settles to the bottom of the container).So one electrode is eaten up.The other one is not(until the polarity of the current is reversed).The beauty of this system is that most metals can be used and 0.91lbs of metal will generate close to 10 gallons of gasoline energy (in H2).So a pound of aluminun cans can get you about 10 gallons of
of gasoline (in energy).Also a lb of junk iron.I will have to spend more time here to be able to really help you guys out.Triffid
lye and aluminum will react until the lye or the aluminum is all used up.You don't even need another metal in the reaction to get H2.Triffid
Quote from: triffid on September 11, 2008, 12:42:52 PM
I have read over the first 3 pages of this thread and have managed only today to get a full copy of Linnard's patent.I am a chemist(B.S.) and of course am very interested in all that is going on in this thread.Safety is always a top concern here.I do know of a system to get only H2( through formation of a metal hydroxide).Two metal electrodes of iron(most metals,not copper,will do) are put into a saltwater solution.Then a small electric current is put across the electrodes and H2 gas boils off both electrodes.The oxygen does not come off as a gas but is tied up as a metal
hydroxide(a solid powder which settles to the bottom of the container).So one electrode is eaten up.The other one is not(until the polarity of the current is reversed).The beauty of this system is that most metals can be used and 0.91lbs of metal will generate close to 10 gallons of gasoline energy (in H2).So a pound of aluminun cans can get you about 10 gallons of
of gasoline (in energy).Also a lb of junk iron.I will have to spend more time here to be able to really help you guys out.Triffid
Triffid;
Its always has been possible to convert metal to a metal oxide or metal chloride and hydrogen gas. The pefered way to inflate
those large hydrogen filled experimental balloons is to use HCl acid and put in large chunks of scrap aluminum metal. The
question is what do you do with the aluminum chloride or alumina that results. One nice thing about alumina is that it is
already present in the environment from rocks but that aluminum metal still costs. Of course in the Linnard reaction everything
is recycled automatically, which is the hope ~ Long period of reactions without any additional reactants added except water.
:S:MarkSCoffman
I have read over the Linnard patent and it pretty much blows away everything else I have ever seen on hydrogen generation.Brute force electrolysis is a dead horse and I will treat it as such.The junk iron and saltwater method was a favorite of mine from 15 years ago.But again its a dead horse because there is waste to contend with from there.Back in the early 90's I was so bored with my job I took to doing chemistry experiments in my kitchen and one of those included doing homemade collidal silver solutions(sorry if I mispelled anything).I was very surprised later to find people paying 50 dollars or more for a little bottle of the stuff.When I knew how to make gallons of the stuff(i just don't know the ppm).So I know how to make collidal suspensions of these metals.Looking over the recipe for experiment 13.It seems to me that twice as many silver ions are used as magnesium ions.So starting with that observation I think I can make the collidal solns and by trial and error find the right amount that works.I do have shavings of magnesium from a machine shop,Also U.S. silver coins supply the silver.Also since 1983 every U.S. penny is copperplated Zinc.It seems I have the starting materials to make the collidal solutions.For a source of the metal nickel
canadian dimes are nearly pure nickel.The US nickel has about 25% nickel in it.But I would not fool with it.I now Think I can power my car with hydrogen gas.Triffid
My colloidal silver solutions were not what you would consider " food grade"
But they might be ok to generate hydrogen.Triffid
I have finally read all 31 pages of this thread!!!A method of making colloidal solutions was given earlier in this thread.that I agree with :ie you put two pure pieces of the desired metal in distilled water(not tap water,not well water),run an electric current though it for about 15 minutes(I like using dc adapters not more than 12 volts).Another post here talked about testing your colloidal solution with salt.That told me my homemade colloidal silver was at least 10ppm.I got a milky color.Then yesterday I got to spend two hours reading the linnard patent again and experiment # six caught my interest.No metal is used and no acid is used.The reaction starts about at 90 degrees C. After a while the metal is regenerated and the acid has been formed.In this case both the metal and the acid was formed later as the reaction progressed from the intitial reactants.They started with FeCl3 and H2O which turns into reduced iron and HCl.Once the iron is reduced(a bare metal) and the acid has formed then the reaction
settles down into needing 65 degrees C to run and puts out (hopefully)a steady supply of hydrogen.Still a bit hot like underneath the hood of a running car?I guess my point here is that no one here has worked on this.So I will !!!! Using homemade colloidal lead and magnesium solutions made from lead weights used to balance car wheels and magnesium shavings from a machine shop.Someone here expressed caution that colloidal lead solutions may be a little nasty to work with.My hope is that this reaction is the one to power a car with hydrogen to burn.I think too that I should mention that toy chemistry kits are available in the stores for anyone wanting to learn more about chemistry.Some kits have pretty good scales for weighing things.I tend to collect them myself.I was looking at about three of them that I have last night.Thought I should say something about it.I still want the ambient room temp project to succeed.I think thats the prize we all want.Way to go Resin Rat 2!!!! Triffid
Just a couple of chemistry tips :1.) 20 drops of water from a normal eyedropper equals one ml.
2.)one cubic centimeter water = one ml=one gram(of water)
3.) water is both a weak base and a weak acid.
I don't know how number three fits into the work here but I have a hunch that it does.Have a good weekend all.Triffid
Hi All,
I finally have the regeneration timer going. This is set up with Tacimatrix setup three-electrodes with regeneration. I have the timer operational. It is made from an old wall clock I modified to switch the regeneration (0.885 volts) on and off every five minutes while the hydrogen is in production all the time.
This simulates one fuel cell being used to run the timer and the other fuel cell being used for regeneration. The timer runs off 1.5 volts and the regeneration is being controlled by a variac so 0.883 volts is being used for zinc regeneration.
This experiment will be used to determine optimum on-off intervals to maintain zinc regeneration and avoid zincate formation. Pictures will be posted as soon as I cut them down to proper file size.
Thanks for your interest.
Pictures below
Hi Chris (Tacmatricx ),
The system seems to be running very smoothly right now. I don't see any evidence of zincates yet, and it is sooooo nice not having to switch the power on and off by hand. If I need to go back to the two zinc electrode system then this unit will do all the switching for me. I also think the shorter switching time is better for the zinc regeneration. It looks clean so far, nice zinc regeneration, although I still don't think enough oxygen is coming off. The hydrogen production is good so the oxygen is going somewhere.
Thanks for your interest.
I ran across a method for making NaOH and KaOH at home from salt solutions and electricity.If anyone is interested please PM me.If you have kids or pets at home I recommend you don't make these at home.I have a friend whose cat knocked over a jar of liquid(baking soda solution).He was lucky,it just created a mess that time.But if it had been a base or acid it would have been a lot worse.Also NaOH at least (or KaOH) can be bought in the dry form from home depot or Lowe's in the drain clearing section of the store.
My radio shack does not sell etching solution(Fe Cl3).So I guess I will get some HCl and iron together and jump start the iron experiment I want to do.Triffid
@ResinRat2 and @triffid:
Sounds nice your latest progresses.
I wonder why Dr.Griffin is trying to produce such miniature units now
with only MilliWatts output and not enhance his
gocart reactor ?
This at least produced huge quantities of hydrogen
and was very impressive !
Too bad he never revealed, how exactly he had done it.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi Stefan,
I don't know exactly what Dr. Griffin is developing right now, but I can only speak from my point of view.
I would really like to build an affordable small unit that would charge a battery or bank of batteries. This would be ideal for installing in an electric car and extending its range by allowing it to charge the car's batteries. This would be ideal for long-range trips with electric cars.
Next I would like to see a unit large enough to produce kilowatts of power that can be installed outdoors next to a person's home and run all the electric components in the house. I can envision it at about the size of a central air conditioning unit sitting right next to the house and hooked to the main water line to keep it filled with water. No more power-grid, no more electric bill.
That's what I would like to see, and just these two ideas would change our world completely.
I would guess that Dr Griffin can't reveal everything to protect any new patents hes planning to secure.Just a guess.Triffid
I ran the one-zinc electrode cell with the unit switching regeneration on and off every 5 minutes for the last five days. It was running smoothly, though a small amount of zincate was forming at various spots on the zinc electrode. I think if the regeneration time was shortened up to maybe one minute on and five minutes off it might do the trick. I will try that experiment next after this new one I started running last night.
The new one is the old two zinc electrode set-up, but I wanted to try it with the switching unit. Right now I still have the five minutes on then five minutes off configuration, but this time the unit is switching between the two zinc electrodes. I want to see if this makes any difference for avoiding zincate formation. That means each zinc electrode undergoes 5 minutes of regeneration every 15 minutes. So it will be like five minutes regenerating, then 15 minutes running.
I will keep posting my results.
I will get the larger reactor going after I finish the third experiment and use all my results to decide on a configuration.
Thanks for your interest.
Hey RR,
Sorry I've been offline lately... My job and family are consuming the most of my time at the moment... I did have an idea about the switching however...
For the tungsten I wanted to try a three rod configuration where you have one generation, one regeneration and one neutral...
1) After a five minute interval, the generation rod is switched to the neutral rod making the previous generation rod the neutral.
2) After another five minute interval, The regeneration rod is switched to the new neutral making the previous regeneration rod the new neutral.
3) After another five minute interval we start back at step one.
This could be either done for the Zinc or the Tungsten or both at the same time...
The benefits are that any build up on the tungsten is eaten off during the cycle and none of the rods are switched while "charged" from their previous role... might help reduce the last bit of zincates?
Chris (Tacmatricx)
Quote from: Tacmatricx on September 27, 2008, 03:11:15 PM
For the tungsten I wanted to try a three rod configuration where you have one generation, one regeneration and one neutral...
The benefits are that any build up on the tungsten is eaten off during the cycle and none of the rods are switched while "charged" from their previous role... might help reduce the last bit of zincates?
Chris (Tacmatricx)
It would give it a chance to spend some time working off the "sticking" material. I know I've seen it drop off at times when the zinc and tungsten/carbide electrodes are just left to run without regeneration going. ...I LIKE IT! It should help to reduce buildup. ...Nice.
Right now I am down to 5 minutes regeneration every half-hour for each zinc electrode. I am hoping to reach a point where the timing can balance the zinc regeneration layer so it stays thin. Your idea could help to keep a handle on and deal with any small amounts of zincates that might form and are noticed. I will probably use this. Thanks for another great idea!!
Who knows, it may reach a point where the regeneration time may get down to only a minute or two, or even less than a minute every hour or so.
Trial and error Baby...Trial and Error!!
So far I don't feel like I deserve the same praise as Resin Rat 2.So far all I have done is declare my intention to go a different path than he did to try to add to the knowledge that he did (Resin Rat 2) acquire through the sweat of his brow.I did manage to buy my Muriatic acid today (31.45%HCl) for $3.69/gallon in the swimming pool dept of albertson grocery store.I don't intend to do much more until Nov when I am in my new place(I'm selling my house).I am here to try to add to the knowledge here.At least I have my acid now.I will assume that the inert ingredients are really inert and safe for humans since it is used in swimming pools.It should be the only acid I have to buy.Triffid
Hi Triff,
The muriatic acid should work fine. I am grateful you are trying an acid-reaction system because I think you will get superior gas output when compared to the KOH or NaOH system. If you look at all the high-output systems that Dr. Griffin has demonstrated he always indicates that it is an acid or acid-iron type reaction. I just never experimented with the acid because I wanted to avoid the chlorine smell that will be coming from them.
Good luck
Update:
The timed system that regenerated each of the two zinc electrodes alternately for "5 minutes out of every 30 minutes run time" died after only two days of operation. The zincates built up and covered each zinc rod. This tells me that the "5 minutes on and 5 minutes off" configuration was superior.
I want to mull on this a bit and perhaps try a few shorter interval experiments before I get the larger reactor going. Just out of curiosity I wonder what results a "one minute on and one minute off" configuration would give while alternating the zinc electrodes? This would mean reacting just the barest minimum zinc surface layer then regenerating it right away.
I will have to change a bit of the wiring to test this, but I would like to try that next.
Thanks for your interest everyone
to resin rat 2 ,I felt that using an acid system as presented in the linnard griffin patent would be easy for me.I would not have to work with metal electrodes,I would not have to cut them or fit them into a system.Just use iron in solution.Also I have read that an engine can generate 900 degrees C heat.The iron/acid system should be able to start making hydrogen and oxygen at 65 degrees C.Also since I tried to do some earlier work with hydrogen boosters.I still have about three homemade units in the garage.Unfortunately I am in the process of trying to sell a house.So I'm having to clean up,throw away stuff,etc.This month I will not do much with it at all.Except keep all the materials together in a box or something.Also iron in solution would have a pretty large electrode surface area,hence maybe more hydrogen/oxygen production like you said.Jules Verne did predict that water would one day be used as a fuel to power our machines.I see the linnard griffin patent as being a fullfillment of that prediction.Keep up the good work.Triffid
Hey Guys,
I gave the pulsed voltage idea a try and I'm getting burnt tungsten (regeneration electrode showing zinc/zincate plating), indicating too much current and shedding electrode (zinc electrode erodes in sheets sometimes shorting the cell), indicating too little current at the same time in the following configurations at 0.950V
On Off (in minutes)
1 1
2 1
1 2
1 3
1 5
Gonna try a few other things to counteract this, will let you know if I have any reproducible success.
Chris
Hi Chris,
Thanks for your info. What I have experienced so far with my setups always gave me the zinc plating on the tungsten when I was above 0.9Volts. I wonder what would happen with your 1 minute on and 5 minutes off at a lower voltage. I'm thinking you regenerate only the thinnest layer of zinc and then burn it off again over the 5 minutes of the reaction that occurs without regeneration. I am thinking that the zincates form more easily the thicker the regeneration layer (or longer regeneration time). So short regeneration times may be best. This is just a personal guess.
I have not modified my setup yet, I have been very busy with personal responsibilities lately and have not found the time.
Hi Chris,
Also, what came to mind was my experience when I removed the zinc electrodes from a cell that had ran for several days and replaced the zinc electrode with a copper electrode. I put a reverse current so that zinc would plate on the copper and I was able to run the hydrogen reaction after that by connecting the tungsten carbide and zinc plated copper electrodes together. The thing I noticed was that the zinc plated very very quickly onto the copper. Within seconds. I would guess less than 10 seconds.
Perhaps the regeneration time needs to be only seconds instead of a minute. Maybe only 10 seconds or so, and then let the hydrogen reaction run without regeneration for 5 or 10 minutes before another regeneration period of only 10 seconds. That way you have a really short regeneration time, keeping the zinc layer very thin, and then burn it off with the hydrogen reaction before the next regeneration. This may be the key, it may even work better with your higher voltage; but I would start with 0.9 volts first.
I think we are getting closer to understanding the key to the regeneration. It will just take a bit more trial and error.
Thanks for all your effort Chris. As soon as I can I will get my unit running with a short regeneration period like i described.
Very soon, I believe we will get there.
I have been cleaning my garage and unearthed two more gallons of muratic acid and some H2SO4 acid too.So maybe in Nov.I can get started on the acid experiments of Dr.linnard's patents.I'm thinking if I just use a steel pot that that supply the needed iron,the iron could be regenerated back on the walls of the pot.I'm also considering putting heat resistant glass
into a steel unit.So I will most likely do both.Triffid
Hi Triff,
Whoohoo, now you have both hydrochloric and sulfuric acids to play with. Too bad you have to wait a while, but it would interest me greatly how the acid reactions rate when compared to the base KOH ones. I'm looking forward to it.
-------------------------------------------
Hi Chris,
Well, I finished assembling my short timer regeneration unit last night. I should get it operational tonight. This will have short regeneration times of less than a minute, followed by about 4 or 5 minutes of off time. This should be interesting. I am going to use your configuration with one zinc electrode. We'll see how it goes!! 8)
Thanks for your interest everyone.
Hi Chris,
Something else to consider is that inside the electrolyte solution there are magnesium and silver colloids that jump between positively charged ions and uncharged colloid particles. There is also potassium salt ions from the potassium hydroxide that carry a positive charge as well as the positive charged zinc ions. All these positively charged particles are attracted to the negative charged zinc electrode during the zinc regenerating process. So I can see in my mind all these ions plating on the zinc electrode during the regenerating process. The thicker the layer, the less and less regenerated zinc is actually being plated on the electrode over time. This hurts the zinc surface area and over time will slow the reaction down until all the zinc plated is no longer in contact with the zinc metal. The result is that the reaction stops.
The short regeneration times prevent this because it allows the zinc to plate only a thin layer, that is worked off over time before the next regeneration period. Always keeping the replated zinc in contact with the metal beneath, and hopefully working off the other positive ions that plate on the electrode as well. That is my hypothesis anyway.
It could be that the zinc regeneration electrode needs a quick "blast" of positive charge to blow the surface layer negative ions off every so often. Maybe for a few seconds once per day or so; to blow off the magnesium, silver, and potassium ions off the surface and start with a pure zinc coating again?
So I am going to shoot for short regeneration times of only seconds, and a bit longer non-regeneration times.
That's my reasoning anyway.
Thanks everyone for your interest.
Hi Dave,
I like the ideas!
What if we allowed a reaction to run for half a day without regeneration... removed the zinc electrode and replaced it with a tungsten electrode... then plated the tungsten to full capacity on that tungsten electrode and then tried the cycle?
It should be much harder to break the cell as the tungsten would not react? It would also be easy to see if the regeneration was too high etc...
With the copper setup I would be concerned with the Copper reacting with the strong alkali solution and polluting the cell?
I think i'll give the run it and replace it with another tungsten over the weekend... will let you know how it goes.
Cheers,
Chris
Hi Chris,
It will work. I did that same procedure last year and the zinc does plate on the tungsten/carbide rod and it will run the reaction once the zinc is on there. I never went much farther with it because I started getting caught up with building a reactor that didn't leak; but I think you are right.
That may actually be the ideal way. Only a certain amount of zinc would be in the cell and it might run cleaner. Just keep plating the zinc and then running the cell. Two zinc plated rods would probably be ideal. One running the reaction and the other regenerating.
You are right about the copper. I started getting green contamination in the cell as time went on with the copper electrode. That's why I ended that direction of research.
I think I need to make a correction about canadian dimes,some, but not all,depends on the year they were minted were made of nearly pure nickle.And yes,I'll be able to play with both acids once I settle into my new place.Triffid
Hey RR,
I have my test cell reconfigured with all tungsten electrodes and am trying to get the zinc to plate on now... will let you know how it turns out... still not seeing any plating after two hours tho...
Chris
Hi Dave,
This thing is refusing to plate onto the tungsten???
I have a three electrode cell... one is the negative for my 1V supply, another is not connected and the final electrode is the positive. I have reacted a fair amount of zinc in the cell and am seeing no replating???
I have raised the voltage again and will keep raising it to let you know how it goes.
Chris
Hi Chris,
Now that's odd. I assume all three electrodes in the cell are tungsten.
Question: When you ran this cell, were the only electrodes inside the cell during the reaction tungsten and zinc? Did you have any other electrodes in there like carbon or iron or aluminum?
When you say running the cell, did you mean that only tungsten and zinc ran for a period of a day or a couple of days before you tried the plating experiment?
If so, then insert an aluminum rod, or aluminum foil into the solution and let it sit. If there is any dissolved zinc to plate then it will plate on the aluminum like threads.
PM me or post your answers here. I am just trying to get all the details of what exactly is in the cell and what exactly you did to run it.
Thanks for letting me know. It is probably something simple.
Hi Dave,
"Now that's odd. I assume all three electrodes in the cell are tungsten." Yes, Three tungsten electrodes.
"Question: When you ran this cell, were the only electrodes inside the cell during the reaction tungsten and zinc? Did you have any other electrodes in there like carbon or iron or aluminum?" No additional materials were added and in addition the electrodes were cleaned and washed in distilled water.
"When you say running the cell, did you mean that only tungsten and zinc ran for a period of a day or a couple of days before you tried the plating experiment?" I placed a small bar of zinc in the bottom of the cell and allowed a tungsten rod to touch this for a day allowing all but the smallest bit to react into the solution.
"If so, then insert an aluminum rod, or aluminum foil into the solution and let it sit. If there is any dissolved zinc to plate then it will plate on the aluminum like threads." I will try this providing my attempts at raising the voltage fail overnight.
Thanks for your help!
Chris
Hi RR2 and all you guys;
Very interesting thread, I’ve read much of it and this is fascinating indeed, using a chemical reaction to produce hydrogen. You’ve really been persistent, ResinRat2 and the others, in doing all these experiments. Wonderful to read about all the teamwork that has been going on for close to 2 years in this thread.
I’ve experimented with making collodial silver the last couple of years, and have spent $6000 on parts and equipment for building a large 20 gallon generator, using two 8â€x8†99.9% pure silver plates in a special acrylic reactor chamber and of course deionized water. I measure the silver concentration using an Ag+ ion-selective electrode. It’s good stuff, and people report about all kinds of interesting stuff happening when ingesting it. After three weeks, one guy with chron’s could finally sleep the whole night without going to the bathroom five times a night. Boy he was happy!
The first requirement in making colloidal silver, or any colloidal, is of course deionized water. Just as important IMO is constant circulation, to disperse the particles and prevent buildup of colloid concentration around the electrodes, to keep the particle size as small as possible.
Making a collodial solution without circulation, in a glass of water, is bound to produce very large particles of silver, thus reducing the reactive area of the silver in the collodial suspension and also reducing the bioavailability of the silver particles to the body. That means that two 10ppm collodial silver suspensions might differ greatly in reactive area, depending on particle size. That goes for colloidal magnesium too, and all colloids. This might affect a lot of things in a chemical reaction, whether in vivo or in vitro.
In addition I personally believe that spiralling the water during the generation process is a must. Water is a living medium, and the water quality and energetic state might be extremely important in all experiments involving water. The difference between dead water that has gone through pipes, and living water, is as big as the difference between life and death, and should affect all chemical reactions involving water.
Also, water is a dipole, as you know, and it sticks together in clusters. Research has been done on restructuring the water into pentagonal and hexagonal structures, and it seems to make a big difference on the body. Restructuring is part of what happens during vortexing, and it apparently changes many of the characteristics of water. I am now building a vortex collodial silver generator, with a vortexer rod spinning in the center of two cylinders of pure silver 5 mm apart, all immersed in deionized water. This is a very interesting invention when it comes to high quality colloidal silver generation, the first of its kind as far as I know.
So apparently the quality of water is important, and water may be the most important ingredient there is in this world. And the structure of water is apparently affecting the quality of water in a great degree. Structure and order is the foundation of all there is.
Also my experiments so far, as well as my studies in medicine and the human system (which is composed mainly of water) has told me that circulation is one of the most critical factors of life. When circulation stops, life stops. Circulation means energy exchange and communication, critical aspects in any reaction.
So I wonder, what benefits might structured water, high quality colloids and circulation have on this hydrogen experiment? You might for instance spin the three tungsten rods, with a little tungsten leaf attached to the bottom end of them, in the water. Then you will get both the vortex effect, regenerating the water as a medium, and you will get circulation.
I mean, if there is a problem with buildup of stuff on electrodes, why not consider the state of the medium of the reaction?
I believe it is not common in chemistry circles to consider the water medium in these ways, but in nature when you get buildup, it is often due to a lack of circulation. Structured water has the ability to keep more stuff in suspension, and might allow for a greater degree of proper regeneration. Also in the body, that happens.
Another reason of buildup in the body, is to protect and shut-off parts of the system from communication with the rest of the body. We see that for instance in calcium encapsulation of â€stuffâ€. The reason might be faulty communication, and the medium might be the culprit as it is the medium of communication and has the ability to interfere with everything that happens and all signals being sent. Thus a buildup might serve as a protection of the effect of faulty communication, and that created the need for the production of the residue in the first place, so protection could be accomplished. I know this is turning things a little upside-down, but it’s a piece of advice: always also consider things as a whole, not just as singular and isolated parts. What needs do the parts have, and why do they have those needs. It's all about creating an environment where dynamic and balanced interchange might occur.
Anyways, I like the idea of two different colloids reacting, producing some kind of dynamic balance/interchange. That is a good starting point and resonates with the principle of duality and dynamic balance of two opposing poles, another universal principle.
My reasoning here is to give you an idea that when you can’t get clear and definite answers by focusing in on stuff, try letting it go and defocus and consider the universal principles, as they are all eventually replicated down to the smallest level of things. As above, so below. That way you get better communication between the left and right brain, and it might help you solve things.
As for the timer system, you can just use several 555 timers on some veroboard, and then you can control delay, duty-cycle and so on with a few pots. They are very cheap and require very few external components to run, and they can drive regular 12V relays, and you might not even need that.
Also with a 555 timer you can generate a square-wave DC pulse to feed the electrodes. That is used for regenerating lead-acid batteries, and that works wonders on them, reducing buildup of stuff on the electrodes.
And when you are working with water, why not set it all up as an orgone accumulator?
I’m serious! Why not combine all these ideas, vortex generation, circulation, frequencies and orgone accumulation? LOL..... I mean, they are all used in the human body, the greatest innovation in the universe. We’ve got a couple of things to learn just from studying how we ourselves are constructed :)
Anyway, you’ve got my interest â€" I’m going to get some tungsten rods and start experimenting on this, while working on my Bob Boyce hydrogen generator and various other generators..... guys â€" I believe this is a very interesting research field and a lot of fascinating discoveries are waiting just to be made!
Have a nice day, all!
Wow, nice post vTex,
I agree with you about the circulation of the electrolyte. There does need to be some type of movement of liquid during the cell's operation. Right now the constant churning of the bubbles does give some mixing, but other than cold and warm spots the liquid is pretty much stationary. I think electrolytes and the minerals tend to start congregating around the zinc electrodes because of their negative charge during regeneration and it starts to "starve" other areas of the cell that need these ions for the reaction. It was just something I never really considered because I was too caught up in studying the workings of the reaction.
As far as the colloids go, I buy the best I can find right now from wateroflife.com. The colloidal solutions are as clear as pure water, no color; so I know they are small particle sizes. That was something I was going to look into much later as a cost cutting measure; but, again, it was not high on my priority list.
As far as the 555 timer. My large hydrogen fuel cell only outputs 3-5 watts, and the 555 timer needs a minimum of 4.5 volts to operate, so I was staying away from that type of circuitry until later on. That is why I ended up using the clock as a timer because it runs off a 1.5 volt AA and was easy for the fuel cell to power.
I am looking forward to your experiments and I wish you good luck. Keep us posted on any interesting findings you run across.
Thanks again.
Hi. The notion that water molecules 'clump', hence the need for mixing, reminded me of an article I read on the transformation that occured in water that was subjected to the 'sun sounds' - basically NASA/ESA recordings of sun noise. An example: http://soi.stanford.edu/results/one_mode_l_1_2.au (http://soi.stanford.edu/results/one_mode_l_1_2.au)
Below is an image of water that was flash-frozen while being subjected to the sound.
Hi Chris,
Sorry, I was mistaken my friend. I looked back at my notes and the only zinc plating I did beside plating on the zinc rods was plating on an electrode made of copper wire. I never actually plated zinc on a tungsten/carbide electrode by intention. My memory faulted me on this one.
I ran a few experiments without a zinc electrode using just the tungsten/carbide rods, electrolyte solution, and colloidal minerals without zinc and I got a good flow of hydrogen and oxygen gas, but no overunity. So I gave up on that direction. I don't have any details on whether the negative rod had a coating on it though. Nothing was recorded in my notebook on that, so I either didn't see one or didn't think it was important enough to record.
I apologize for that mistake.
OK, it looks like I've settled on short regeneration times with on and off phases and jumping between two zinc electrodes for regeneration. I will be using Tacmatricx's configuration, but with two zinc electrodes.
I am finishing putting the large reactor together and fine tuning the regeneration timer. I should have my two-quart-sized-glass-jar-unit running by the end of this coming week.
It has been a LONG time coming but I think I have worked out most of the bugs.
Thanks for your interest.
Sorry,I've been away from this thread.I am moving next week into my new place and maybe 3 or 4 weeks later(end of dec)I'll start work on the hot acid solutions mentioned in the linnard griffin patent.Triffid
OK, a few conclusions I have come to based off the work I have been doing on this project so far.
1) The advantage of Dr. Griffin's system is that it is spontaneous when using the sacrificial metal for the production of hydrogen. This metal can be regenerated at low voltage, but it is a bit tricky when trying to prevent the formation of zincates that eventually kill the reaction. This is minimized by regenerating only thin layers of zinc at a time, and then burning them off in the hydrogen producing reaction. Over long term, the zinc will eventually become zincated and the reaction will stop. So the zinc rod will eventually need to be replaced.
2) The reaction is naturally endothermic, and will draw energy from the environment by absorbing the heat differential from around the reactor. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be a large heat/energy draw. It would almost need a solar/heat concentrator around the unit to get the full advantage of the effect. In this case, it operates best when the sun shines.
3) If the use of strong acid or base could be eliminated, and the regeneration cycle could be eliminated, then some type of self-sustaining reaction might be developed.
4) Dr. Griffin is so far ahead of any work that I am doing that it is a waste of time for me to continue rediscovering his work. I need to research in a different direction.
Along these lines I stopped trying to find the ideal cycle/voltage needed for the zinc regeneration and wanted to try to develop a longer term operating unit that could use a solar/heat concentrator for self-sustaining operation. I dumped the zinc rods and replaced all electrodes with tungsten/carbide or thoriated tungsten rods. Since there was no zinc regeneration I eliminated the magnesium colloid and replaced it with double the silver colloid concentration. This would take advantage of Dr. Griffin's work that uses the high concentration of colloid to drive the reaction with lower energy requirements. I also replaced the caustic potassium hydroxide solution with sodium bicarbonate. The idea here was to try and take advantage of some earlier work that showed evidence of extra heat production when using sodium carbonate (which is very similar in structure to sodium bicarbonate) for low temperature fusion experiments.
I did several experiments and found that a very large heat differential could be developed using the sodium bicarbonate and silver colloid mixture powered by low voltage to produce hydrogen/oxygen. As a result, I will be starting a new thread that will post results along these research lines. My goal is to build a unit that will produce hydrogen that could be run through a fuel cell and self sustain the reaction as long as solar energy/heat are concentrated on the unit. It will run cold and use no caustic/acid for the electrolyte.
So, for now, I am stopping work on this thread. I think it is better if we wait for Dr. Griffin to finally give the world his technology, and not waste time doing double work on this project.
Thanks everyone for your support over the last couple of years. I just think we really need to start getting some viable technology out into the general population to start eliminating our dependency on oil. I am just not going to make that happen by what I am doing right now.
Hi ResinRat2,
QuoteI did several experiments and found that a very large heat differential could be developed using the sodium bicarbonate and silver colloid mixture powered by low voltage to produce hydrogen/oxygen. As a result, I will be starting a new thread that will post results along these research lines. My goal is to build a unit that will produce hydrogen that could be run through a fuel cell and self sustain the reaction as long as solar energy/heat are concentrated on the unit. It will run cold and use no caustic/acid for the electrolyte.
This will be interesting. Can you start this thread and describe the basic setup you have tested ?
So we might assist in doing research adn add info here.
Regards
Kator01
The setup is a glass reactor with two tungsten/carbide electrodes. I tried one platinum electrode and one tungsten carbide electrode but the gas generation was very weak. The electrolyte solution is deionized water with 20% sodium bicarbonate added and 35cc of 300ppm silver colloid solution brought to a total of 200ml.
When a AA battery is hooked to the electrodes a vigorous generation of gases results, and the solution temperature begins to drop. If the reactor is surrounded with warm/hot water to keep the temperature up, the gas is kept at a vigorous rate. At this point in time I am seeing precipitate form, and the polarity of the connections needs to be switched periodically. I am not sure exactly what is happening but it could be that the silver colloid is oxidizing and dropping out.
I will start the thread when I have some solid numbers to post as far as temperature drop and timing of the switching and an idea of exacly what gases are forming. I need to do a flame test. These things I have not analytically studied yet.
It is just an interesting direction I want to pursue right now.
Hi Resinrat2,
thank you. I was doing some research on approving electrolysis and found a person who delevoped a very good flashbackarrestor. He also presented two videos where he first added two spoons of backing-powder to the water and then slowly added some destilled vinegar and he had this huge abount of C02 prduced.
Then I read this here in the german wikipedia ( unfortunately the relevant pargraph does not exist in the english version ) :
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natriumhydrogencarbonat (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natriumhydrogencarbonat).
Now scroll down to the end of the page and look for the last formula below the text :
"Bei der Zugabe von Natriumhydrogencarbonat....."
It is stated in this text that any inonic elements like calcium or magnesium will be washed out as carbonate..
and then this formula is placed below .
So I think there is CO2 and the Ag+ Ion will be oxydized at the end of this process.
Regards
Kator01
Hi Kator01,
I suspect, as you mentioned, that the silver ion is being oxidized and that possibly CO or CO2 is being produced. At this time I am waiting on my sample of sodium carbonate to arrive. This is more in line with the cold-fusion work. The sodium carbonate has an interesting bond resonance between the three oxygen atoms attached to the carbon atom.
I have platinum wire that I used for the fuel cell experiments and the tungsten rods, both carbide and thoriated, to play with as electrodes. This is going off this subject of Linnard Griffin's electrolysis but I am responding to your post here. I am also considering adding Dr. Griffin's method of using the silver colloid to lower the energy required for the electrolysis, but I want to find a way to keep the silver from oxidizing; or find a way of regenerating the silver. Perhaps I will incorporate the magnesium colloid as well. If the fusion can work at high voltages, maybe it has a potential to work at low amps and low voltages as well. Maybe not, but it is something I want to look into. I just keep thinking that if the pistol shrimp can create fusion in cavitation bubbles at normal water temperatures, then maybe there are conditions at ambient that can produce this as well.
This is now off this subject and I will start a new thread when I get a few experiments under my belt. I have been looking at the cold fusion threads on this site and have been reading the papers and information on other sites related to cold fusion. To me it looks very interesting and I would like to try a few ideas of my own that I have right now.
Hi All,
This website, and Stefan, are great. If there is free energy to be found then this is the place that will find it.
I have been doing an extensive amount of testing lately using variations of Linnard Griffin's electrolysis system, and also variations without using colloidal minerals. All in an effort to get a self running unit.
Using the the usual setup of KOH, Mg and Ag colloids, and tungsten and zinc electrodes I have tried different ratios and concentrations, but even with the timed regeneration, short and long regeneration times, and electrode switching, the cell always ended up with zincated contamination and loss of pH. I could never get it to stay stable. I have to come to the conclusion that after 2 years of work on this that it will never reach the state of overunity and stability for the long term. Maybe Dr. Griffin has found the secret, I don't know; but from what I see this system is good for producing hydrogen on demand, but eventually the zinc, KOH, and colloids will need to be replaced.
I have also been doing variations of his work using sodium bicarbonate or sodium carbonate in place of the KOH. This was in an effort to try and produce the cold-fusion effect that others have seen at high voltages. These cells never self-ran and always needed some electrical input from 0.7 volts and above to get them to produce hydrogen and oxygen off of tungsten carbide, zinc, and thoriated tungsten electrodes. Again, I never was able to produce a cell that self-ran after feeding the hydrogen through a fuel cell. I never saw any excess heat or anything unusual; and the maximum voltage I went up to was about three volts. The cells always became trashy and slowly died.
This will be my last post on this thread, unless some miracle happens and Dr. Griffin reveals some secret technique we don't know about. It has been quite a jouney for me and I will probably still be working on this or similar projects in the future. Thanks everyone for your encouragement and support over this time. If I do happen to find anything worthwhile I will post it here for you all.
One last thing, I am giving up and finally purchasing solar panels for my house from Sharp. Very expensive, but with Obama coming in office I figure the poop is going to hit the fan and come down on us all. No sense waiting any longer for the "miracle" power source or the "miracle" solar panel. The crooks want our money wether we pay it now or later. I don't think I will live to see the generous soul who will give the secret away for free. I am going to be 50 years old next month and can't wait any longer. The sun, with battery backup, is "free"-energy and I want to get my house running on it's own. I am just worn down and tired of waiting.
Pay now, or pay later. The scumbags have got us.
At night and during the day I see water in my mind, splitting into gases that can save us all. All we need is the dang PROCEDURE to do it with.
G'day Dave,
I am sorry to see you like this. We have all been there and will be there again and again until something gives. You have made enormous strides in this technology and the fact that you have not cracked the ultimate goal is not to your discredit.
So, if you feel you have to go away for a while and lick your wounds, do just that. In the meantime rest assured you have a lot of friends here for whom you have been an inspiration. If nothing else, that is an enormous contribution which no-one can take away from you.
Whatever you decide, I wish you well and want to thank you for being the kind of man you are.
All the best.
Hans von Lieven
Sorry guys,I've not finished moving yet.But in Feb I will close on the house I'm moving out of(I found a buyer).And yesterday I became a grandpa to a 7lb 15 oz baby girl.Once I get settled in I 'll come back to this thread and dive in with the hot acid part of Linnard's electroylsis of water. Solar panels are always good to get.I've had them for 9 years in my living room.A 30 dollar solar panel can be made to generate up to 10 x the electricity they were designed for by reflecting to 10x the sunlight on it.Its a 1 to 1 correlation.So 12 volts becomes 120 volts,etc. No reason to be glum.Triffid
I have about 20 different solar panels.All of them can generate up to 10x what they are rated for.Over 10x you might see some damage.But I don't know about that(over 10x).Triffid
Have a look!!
http://www.impactlab.com/2009/01/24/new-way-to-produce-hydrogen-discovered/ (http://www.impactlab.com/2009/01/24/new-way-to-produce-hydrogen-discovered/)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/050205125336.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/050205125336.htm)
more detailed..
http://www.tudelft.nl/live/pagina.jsp?id=4b72e332-a401-4209-9a51-d1ed79bf0784&lang=en (http://www.tudelft.nl/live/pagina.jsp?id=4b72e332-a401-4209-9a51-d1ed79bf0784&lang=en)
Dave!
Sorry to hear you hit the same wall I have. Maybe we can come up with another research concept, perfect for a guy like you... The community needs more people like you. I got a new killer idea I would love to talk about with you. Drop me an email if you get this!
~Dingus Mungus
Hello Chris,
I sent you a PM on this webpage but I guess you didn't get it. I can't find your email address in my records. You need to PM it to me.
RR2