It all starts with these videos I made up of a quick and dirty high voltage HHO
system to show a few people here on the forums. Well I did not think this would hijack another thread (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1500.130.html)
completely and attract so much attention.But it did , so here we are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnIJyNmI33U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoEXaNnBRPo
The HHO system is Hydrogen Oxygen production at 150F degrees 90VDC.This system is also pulsed. We will talk about that later as each build requires a different pulse to work proper. It is my belief that high voltage low current is required to break the bond of Hydrogen and Oxygen. At least on this level of production.This is a capacitor ,treat it like one when working with these voltages that can discharge rapidly.
It must stay at this temp (150F) or it will steam very fast so it must be cooled with radiator. This is why I am running the bench system for a shot time . If I ran it longer you would see steam billow " A hell of a lot in a very short time" from the canister.
So what you are seeing is a dirty quick build bench top version of the system I run in my vehicle.. I will soon be removing this system from my vehicle ,to remove and replace the Silver with Nitronic as the Silver is breaking down .
Do not use Tungsten in this system on the oxygen side, It will dissolve.
316 stainless is good ,and Nitronic Stainless is preferred method.
People are asking me how much gas is produced .I am no scientist I build what works for a given application. So the system in my vehicle produces enough for what I need it to do , get more bang for the buck on a big block 454ci engine.
BTW "Moab"great job you are on the top of my list of just do-ers . The "Just done it" list as it were.
You did it with out a zillion question about this that and the other scientific blah blah. Keep up the good builds
This is a very complicated system to run in a vehicle.
If you want something easy and that is proven ,buy a MagDrive
Just Build It
just do it!
IronHead
Need input!
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jeffbots.com%2Fshortcircuit6.jpg&hash=59f7a4168cb1f75d47731c2766eb0de832a48934)
Wonderful!
Here is a Fullwave bridge @16 amps in cold water. I have two 312 stainless cupps for conductors. 4'' 3 1/2'' This makes HHO until the water is over 170 F. After that all you get is steam. Now at about 150 F the amprage drops to about 5-7 amps. this is the sweet spot for me so far. This is not pulsed. Moab
;D Now we are getting into the new way that a lot of people are starting to understand. I designed a new cell just for this purpose. Using a voltage intensifier circut is my next planed cell driver, for it and it alone is hooked up to the electrolyzer. The new cell is designed to take full advantage of this no current, high voltage concept. Voltage work theory by Stanley Myers is what I have gotten into now. We think we have figured it all out. Zigouras racing has it working just fine they say. As soon as I get the electronics built I will put Joe cell and Myer's tied together with vacuum lines, the Joe cell has to come first for it is electronicly connected, and the Myers cell is totally isolated, as it should be. I will later try to market the Myer's type cell since it is way more cost effective for me to make than a good Joe Cell. Wish me luck :D.
Quote from: IronHead on March 08, 2007, 06:19:16 PM
It all starts with these videos I made up of a quick and dirty high voltage HHO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnIJyNmI33U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoEXaNnBRPo
IronHead
IronHead,
please let us know, how much electrical power you put into this ?
Is it really HHO gas ?
Can you show another video by lighting a few bubbles after a bubbler ?
This is an amazing rate of HHO production !
Please let us know more !
Many thanks !
Quote from: Moab on March 08, 2007, 06:56:11 PM
Wonderful!
Here is a Fullwave bridge @16 amps in cold water. I have two 312 stainless cupps for conductors. 4'' 3 1/2'' This makes HHO until the water is over 170 F. After that all you get is steam. Now at about 150 F the amprage drops to about 5-7 amps. this is the sweet spot for me so far. This is not pulsed. Moab
Oh yeah. If you guys from the shop stop by Overynity.com.. Ah,, That is not your coffee pot. It' an incredible simulation. And if your coffee taist funny in the AM. I know nothing about it!
So how much electrical power is going into it ?
110 Volts AC /60 Hz rectified with Full wave rectifier and then fed onto the tubes
and it draws 16 amps ?
For around 100 Volts @16 amps= 1600 Watts this is very low HHO gas output !
Quote from: h20power on March 08, 2007, 07:06:18 PM
;D Now we are getting into the new way that a lot of people are starting to understand. I designed a new cell just for this purpose. Using a voltage intensifier circut is my next planed cell driver, for it and it alone is hooked up to the electrolyzer. The new cell is designed to take full advantage of this no current, high voltage concept. Voltage work theory by Stanley Myers is what I have gotten into now. We think we have figured it all out. Zigouras racing has it working just fine they say. As soon as I get the electronics built I will put Joe cell and Myer's tied together with vacuum lines, the Joe cell has to come first for it is electronicly connected, and the Myers cell is totally isolated, as it should be. I will later try to market the Myer's type cell since it is way more cost effective for me to make than a good Joe Cell. Wish me luck :D.
Okay!! Good luck! These pattons are still active. So until the meyers family drops the rights to it, youll have a hard time marketing it.
Quote from: hartiberlin on March 08, 2007, 07:28:35 PM
Quote from: Moab on March 08, 2007, 06:56:11 PM
Wonderful!
Here is a Fullwave bridge @16 amps in cold water. I have two 312 stainless cupps for conductors. 4'' 3 1/2'' This makes HHO until the water is over 170 F. After that all you get is steam. Now at about 150 F the amprage drops to about 5-7 amps. this is the sweet spot for me so far. This is not pulsed. Moab
Oh yeah. If you guys from the shop stop by Overynity.com.. Ah,, That is not your coffee pot. It' an incredible simulation. And if your coffee taist funny in the AM. I know nothing about it!
So how much electrical power is going into it ?
110 Volts AC /60 Hz rectified with Full wave rectifier and then fed onto the tubes
and it draws 16 amps ?
For around 100 Volts @16 amps= 1600 Watts this is very low HHO gas output !
I agree, but this is COLD water. amprage drops to about 7 amps 700 watts, And gas prodiction climbs at 150F you would never get that "small HHO output" from 12v system at the same wattage at any temp. And we havnt started pulsing or fliping polaity yet. I made no clames of massive gas production. I only posted it to show the effect at a given HZ/Voltage. ::) I would like to see 5 LPM, This i think would be worthwhile as a fuel supplement.
Again I would like to say. I am not to sure what Myers was doing ,he was playing with laser interaction with electron force agitation and other high tech stuff.
As far as Volts go as I post in the first post its 90VDC on this one you see in the video. Current is much more complex of and answer. You have to understand this thing is like a capacitor and it charges like one.So we might start out one day at 30 amps and drop to 0.5 amps at 150F and the next day we might start at 20 amps and down to 0.2 amps . The cell when running in the video at 150F intermittent runs to keep stable was 0.2 if i remember correctly. The next time I fire it up it will be different .
Also ,I build for myself out of need not for the market or scientific research.
The truth is for a large part of my life I did not give a damn about the rest of the world.
But that has changed. There are many people out there that are willing to make a change in the world . This I have learned from this forum.
I will post some nice big bangs to show HHO production and as soon as I get a hold of a friend that has a gas analysis system and the knowledge to help me give you the specs you all seem to need.
(we already did this a few years back ,but will do it again for you guys)
@Moab,
your system is a completely different one than the onefrom IronHead.
Did you see the videos of IronHead yet on Youtube from the above links ?
IronHead?s system produces so much more gas, that it is increadible,
if it is really done only with 90 Volts DC and 0.2 Amps= 18 Watts ?
If this gas is really HHO ( oxyhydrogen ) and not just steam or CO or CO2
(maybe because of his baking soda ?) ,
then it is really an amazing production rate !
IronHead, maybe you just can put via a hose and a bubbler your device
under test again and light a few bubbles coming from the bubbler water
and show the Voltage on voltmeter and the amps on an ampmeter.
Did you also use any special pulsing for it ?
Many thanks.
Quote from: hartiberlin on March 08, 2007, 08:25:51 PM
@Moab,
your system is a completely different one than the onefrom IronHead.
Did you see the videos of IronHead yet on Youtube from the above links ?
IronHeadÃ,´s system produces so much more gas, that it is increadible,
if it is really done only with 90 Volts DC and 0.2 Amps= 18 Watts ?
If this gas is really HHO ( oxyhydrogen ) and not just steam or CO or CO2
(maybe because of his baking soda ?) ,
then it is really an amazing production rate !
IronHead, maybe you just can put via a hose and a bubbler your device
under test again and light a few bubbles coming from the bubbler water
and show the Voltage on voltmeter and the amps on an ampmeter.
Did you also use any special pulsing for it ?
Many thanks.
There is no baking soda in this system . The only place I talked about baking soda was on the "ColdFusion reactor.This Cell is tap water. It is because of High voltage ,
its is because of the right temperature , Materials , It is charging water and waiting for the reaction over time. and the freqs we have not talked about yet. you know about one of the freqs 120hz.
No level of HHO is to low. Evolution is the road to success.
Just Build It
IronHead
Yes i did see the videos. I surely havnt made gas like that. Ironhead has not gone in to to much detail yet, Give him time. He is probably waiting for the new thread to settle down abit. Congrats on your thread Ironhead. And i havnt been messing aroung with HHO vary long, Its a distraction from the TPU for me. But i would bet my favorite hat that he is pulsing and flipping polarity at a given frequency and rate. I dont see how you could get that much gas without it being pure hydrogen poroxide and bakeing soda. without pulsing or fliping,, Just a thought.
Lets build it!
Moab
Yes both
Wahoo! Great
Now if i can make a simple flipflop. And freq pulser from 120v-60hz. we are in! Hmm where have i seen this before? hmmmm,, ::) and its gotta run from an inverter. Or maybe even a seporate alternator that is modified to do this vary thing. Now where did i put that circuit??
Lets Build it ! Like my new saying? Moab
If you are full wave rectifying 60hz from the wall 115/120vac you will get 120 Hz
Flip like this at negative prim ------ + ------ + ------- +
Every second Negative and Positive a millisecond . you got to play with it.
Again I am not a scientist
If you go fast you will dissolve the tungsten.SS on SS you will have no problems
of dissolving.
Pulse is from 19k to 22k the wave should be sharp.
You have to tune it. be patient between hz as there is a lag time.
I am on it ;D
Hmm, IronHead,
so do you only sometimes use the 120 Hz fullwave rectified 60 Hz wave from the grid,
or are you chopping it additionally up at 19 to 21 Khz ?
or can one just either use 120 Hz rectified OR 19 to 21 Khz pulsed ?
You got it . Thought no one would ask .Yes it is chopped.
Switched in time with everything else.There is something about a relax mod that I do not fully understand but it works.
This all was accidental from making mistakes in the early builds.
Hi all
Years ago you could get a gadget that converted your car alternator to put out 120 volts for running power drills, etc. It? probably bypassed the regulator and put out AC with high hertz " It would only work for motors that had brushes. Don't know if modern alternators would do the same?
So, If you get good production, you could still put it in a vehicle and run off the alternator? You could put in a 160 degree themostat and cool the cell with the engine cooling system.
Just thinking ahead.
tishatang
Quote from: IronHead on March 08, 2007, 09:37:02 PM
You got it . Thought no one would ask .Yes it is chopped.
Switched in time with everything else.There is something about a relax mod that I do not fully understand but it works.
This all was accidental from making mistakes in the early builds.
Okay, could you post a picture or video of your control circuit for it ?
Many thanks in advance.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: tishatang on March 08, 2007, 10:14:34 PM
Hi all
Years ago you could get a gadget that converted your car alternator to put out 120 volts for running power drills, etc. It? probably bypassed the regulator and put out AC with high hertz " It would only work for motors that had brushes. Don't know if modern alternators would do the same?
So, If you get good production, you could still put it in a vehicle and run off the alternator? You could put in a 160 degree themostat and cool the cell with the engine cooling system.
Just thinking ahead.
tishatang
Had one of those gadgets on my rig years ago. It does work with alternator ;)
Dave
Hi Ironhead,
I understand that you have a periodic 100 Hz full-wave rectified DC.
This voltage is varying from zero to max V and back to zero.
This slowly varying DC voltage goes to the cell through a switch that
turns current ON and OFF at 19 to 22 kHz. In other words, it "chops"
the full-wave voltage form.
The chopping does not change electrode polarity.
Because of the high voltage, do you need to utilise distilled water
to prevent cell voltage from limiting around 2 to 3 Volts?
- OR -
do you use plates that have no galvanic connection to the water?
i.e. the electrode plates are acting like capacitors and will only pass
high-frequency curent, but no DC ?
What I don't understand is your comment about flipping. At what frequency
does this flipping occur? I assume flipping means polarity inversion.
Have you tried bi-polar chopping at 19 to 22 kHz? i.e. the electrodes would be
changing polarity at a HF rate.
Regards, Earl
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Reference to:
Ironhead> If you are full wave rectifying 60hz from the wall 115/120vac you will get 120 Hz
Flip like this at negative prim ------ + ------ + ------- +
Every second Negative and Positive a millisecond . you got to play with it.
Again I am not a scientist
If you go fast you will dissolve the tungsten.SS on SS you will have no problems
of dissolving.
Pulse is from 19k to 22k the wave should be sharp.
You have to tune it. be patient between hz as there is a lag time.
------------------
Ironhead> Yes both
------------------
Moab> I dont see how you could get that much gas ....
without pulsing or fliping
------------------
Ironhead> one of the freqs 120hz
Any more information on replication? (aka electrode osc shots or schematics)
"Simple, Use one or a hundred green tip Tungsten welding rod and a chunk of Nitronic stainless steel. Rectify 120 or 115AC
to DC . Hook Positive to the Nitronic and the Negative to the Tungsten. Start up amps are high around 20 to 30 but will drop very fast as you reach optimum temps of about 150*F , Do this in tap water or add a very small amount of KOH to get a faster reaction. Anyone gets this far let me know and we can move on after you see the results of this build."
BTW the videos don't appear to work for some reason.
Could you post them both to the OU server?
Hi Ironhead-
I finally got a piece of pure tungsten welding rod. I didn't get the nitronic stainless though yet. I read in some supplier specs that while nitronic was much stronger than 316 stainless it wasn't as good against corrosion. It was more corrosive resistant than 304 grade stainless however. So, first question I have for you is I am wondering why you would settle to use nitronic stainless instead of the more common 316 grade?
So anyways, I ran a few tests with what I have (the 316 stainless and the tungsten) I find that all seems to act like normal electrolysis expectations. The hotter the water(electrolyte) gets the more amps it draws is what I found. This is what I would expect from any other similar form of electrolysis. At various points in the temperature ranges I swapped out the tungsten rod with a similar sized 316 stainless electrode and found not much difference in amperage draw or gas produced. Overall the gas produced per watt used is not efficient.
With all the steam produced which we don't want and the wattage requirements for this system being so high at this point I am wondering what advantages your system has or what it is I have overlooked?
Best Regards,
Not sure where you got your info. But this is what online metals has to say and many other metal manufactures and metal company's. Along with the quote below the Iron content is much lower along with higher Nickel content than any other SS available.
Nitronic 50 Stainless Steel (annealed condition)
Minimum Properties Ultimate Tensile Strength, psi 116,000
Yield Strength, psi 57,000
Elongation 47%
Rockwell Hardness B91
Chemistry Iron (Fe) 58%
Chrome (Cr) 22%
Manganese (Mn) 5%
Molybdenum (Mo) 2.25%
Nitrogen (N) 0.3%
Nickel (Ni) 12.5%
Silicon (Si) 1% max
Quote from Online Metals:
"Nitronic 50 Stainless Steel provides a combination of corrosion resistance and strength not found in any other commercial material available in its price range. This austenitic stainless has corrosion resistance greater than that provided by Types 316 and 316L, plus approximately twice the yield strength at room temperature. In addition, Armco Nitronic 50 Stainless has very good mechanical properties at both elevated and sub-zero temperatures. And, unlike many austenitic stainless steels, Nitronic 50 does not become magnetic when cold worked."
Further more ,the current should climb at start up then lower rapidly when reaching optimum temps. Temps must be stabilized with cooling system.The idea is to utilize high voltage and very low current .If your cell steams then your temps and amps are to high. This as a test cell will only run for seconds before heating to high. for long term use ,simply cool the cell with radiator. Use the excessive heat for what ever purpose you need.
OK-
Well fair enough ironhead. I got my info about nitronic 60 stainless at a website www.hpalloy.com and here's a little bit about what they had to say which is kinda like what I had to say earlier ;) only they say it better
" Corrosion Properties
The corrosion resistance of Armco NITRONIC 60 Stainless Steel falls between that of types 304 and 316. However, experience shows that in a wear system, a galling or siezure failure occurs first, followed by dimensional loss due to wear, and finally corrosion. Galling and wear must be the first concerns of the design engineer. Although the general corrosion resistance of NITRONIC 60 is not quite as good as Type 316, it does offer better chloride pitting resistance, stress corrosion cracking resistance and crevice corrosion resistance than Type 316 in laboratory conditions. Corrosion tests are not normally performed with NITRONIC 60 High Strength."
It goes on and on of course but I didn't know what # of nitronic steel you got as I don't think you had mentioned it. The point was though is I don't know what it is that you find so special for this cell purpose with your using both tungsten and nitronic stainless. So my question is - besides the strength and corrosion factors what advantage is there to using these metals? I should break that question down to - does it produce more gas than using ordinary 316L stainless steel electrodes? 316 stainless has been proven to giving good service in this type of application for many cell builders.
The energy required to make the amount of usable gas produced is the bottom line here. I understand the problems when the electrolyte becomes too hot and its a good idea of yours to run it through a radiator type of cooler. "amperage runaway" as they often call it in this field is a real problem for cell builders when the electrolyte heats up. X units of energy(watts) to make X units of combustiable gas. Your cell rated in watts producing so many lts/min of gas will determine its efficiency against other systems.
I believe you but am completely mystified as to why your amperage draw 'reduces' once it becomes hotter up to the "optimum" operating temperature. I haven't been able to replicate that reaction in this particular test cell or in any other electrolysis cell in over 2 yrs. Yours is the only cell I have heard of where the amperage draw is reduced when the heat of the electrolyte goes up and that is what caught my attention in the first place about your cell design.
Would like to know why that happens, how much gas you produce per amp and why you chose those particular metals as electrodes thats all before I spend $1,000 on materials and machining :o
Thanks For The Info and Keep up the Good Work-
Short answer for currant drop.
When the electrodes begin to produce gas they are suspended in thousands of bubles, This causes less and less liquid to be in direct contact with the electrodes. Thus less amprage/currant to passbetween them.
How many units are you going to build? $1000.00 Bucks seems abit much for a test unit.I have less that 10.00 in the unit i'm playing with. But most of the stuff i had on hand, But i'd think somthing like this more realistic for this build
Tungston 10.00-15.00, Use them often so about 4.00 for me
Full wave bridge 12.00-15.00, found it in a box of junk form an old build so Free?
Nitronic Tig rod 6.00 - 8.00, I payied 3.60 for a rod 32''X 1/8'' dia
Nothing hard to find yet. and not to much $$ for supplys eah?
Now we can start the build for under 50.00. Buying a peice at a time. untill we add in the 20k circuit, this will be where the cost is,IMHO. And the most time consumeing unless Ironhead has a secret formula to build it useing off the shelf parts to save time and $$,, Im with ya!!
LETS BUILD IT.. lol ,,Moab
Moab-
Yeah, I hear you about the pricing. I just tossed a figure out there to make a point about understanding why Ironhead chose using those kinds and types of materials instead of ordinary 316 stainless. Anyways, ironhead had at one time used tungsten and silver plates in his cool looking cell that he had posted pictures of and he said it was quite expensive to build.
Lets pretend the materials were free and any type of metal was available and building time too wasn't important - then why use tungsten and nitronic stainless? I am just asking why and if it produces more gas or not, thats all?
I am REAL glad you brought up your point on the amperage draw. That's what I had figured out as well and was hoping someone else would mention it. I think when it gets bubbling away madly there is less contact with the water on the electrodes. I reckon less contact with the water means less amperage draw BUT less contact also means LESS gas produced as well. :(
Yeah, let's just build these units but lets make them efficient as possible. Best construction price for litres of gas/min/amp I say. Some small engine applications like motorcycles for example don't have large amp electrical systems to just fry the heck out of the water with large watt units and just hope for the best. In these types of cases it is obvious that we need the biggest bang for our amps supplied.
Thanks for Your Thoughts Moab-
Best Regards,
Quote from: Moab on March 08, 2007, 07:36:34 PM
Quote from: h20power on March 08, 2007, 07:06:18 PM
;D Now we are getting into the new way that a lot of people are starting to understand. I designed a new cell just for this purpose. Using a voltage intensifier circut is my next planed cell driver, for it and it alone is hooked up to the electrolyzer. The new cell is designed to take full advantage of this no current, high voltage concept. Voltage work theory by Stanley Myers is what I have gotten into now. We think we have figured it all out. Zigouras racing has it working just fine they say. As soon as I get the electronics built I will put Joe cell and Myer's tied together with vacuum lines, the Joe cell has to come first for it is electronicly connected, and the Myers cell is totally isolated, as it should be. I will later try to market the Myer's type cell since it is way more cost effective for me to make than a good Joe Cell. Wish me luck :D.
Okay!! Good luck! These pattons are still active. So until the meyers family drops the rights to it, youll have a hard time marketing it.
HI everyone, As for the Meyer's patient it runs out Jun 27 this year, plus that's is not what Meyer's him self made for the world. He had a small spark plug looking device that I really can't understand. Maybe someone some day will figure that one out, but as for me I'm sticking with the old technology.
Well, all of the testing is going great thus far, had a few problems, darn cap imploded on me. Had to disconect the device mid trip, for the car had zero vacuums when it crack, but it was running fine up to that point. I will get started on the electro dielecrtic oblitarator as soon as all of the stuff comes in, wish me luck..........H20power
PS im a bit busy testing things now, so I do come online all that often, okay all?
Hi everyone, Just in case you thought I was full of BS read this on Zigouras Racing:
http://blog.waterforfuel.com/2007/03/17/sky-driver-airlines-dropping-you-off-exactly-where-you-need-to-be.aspx#Comment
As you can see the US has it head in the ground like an osterage, hoping things will just get better somehow. I was really counting on Zigs too come through, since Hypowerfuel.com seems to have stopped for some reason also. waterforfuel.com is so close to getting things working I hope he makes it. I need more time and money always too broke to get things done in a timely fashion. Gas where I am is 335 a gallon now, just because, for there is no Huricain, or full scale war to blaim this time. The weather is good, we are at peace, just helping that country to get on their feet, so why the big increase in fuel prices?
It just makes me angry to see technology being supresst, and we really need it now. To many people are going without power that have families to raise, but the cost of living just is too much for them too bare.
Meyer's technology really works, it just needs some fine tunning is all. High voltage and low current do a number to water, Zigs was electrolizing aproximently two gallons a minute, and that's way more than any car would need to run on. I want to save our oil for it is needed to make plastics or do we want a clay TV box ???. I hate the way things are looking for it seems we have no future pass 2025, and the Government is fine with that, go figure.
Hello all
I will have some new videos and explanations of this cell type very soon.
I have built a new cell for this forum. This new cell is 36 volt 10 amp Neutral plate type.
I have built this cell to see if I could improve on the design. The outcome is fantastic.
The gas I am producing now is much cleaner at about the same production as the high voltage NS-T system.
This new 36/10 Neutral cell is built with Nitronic Stainless only. No Tungsten in this one.
I have chosen materials based on keeping the water clean. There are so many materials that will leach chemicals into the water, it makes it very hard to build a clean cell.
This cell has ran for days with no trash using distilled water with a minute amount of KOH ,about 10mg to one gallon of water. This cell is also built like my other cells ,it's a capacitor .
BTW* 2 second production put a flame to it ,blew most of the water out of the open cell and 2 days later my ears are still ringing.
NOT RECOMMENDED TO LIGHT THIS ONE UP.
Just Build It
and watch it bubble
IronHead
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on March 18, 2007, 02:34:40 AM
Any more information on replication? (aka electrode osc shots or schematics)
"Simple, Use one or a hundred green tip Tungsten welding rod and a chunk of Nitronic stainless steel. Rectify 120 or 115AC
to DC . Hook Positive to the Nitronic and the Negative to the Tungsten. Start up amps are high around 20 to 30 but will drop very fast as you reach optimum temps of about 150*F , Do this in tap water or add a very small amount of KOH to get a faster reaction. Anyone gets this far let me know and we can move on after you see the results of this build."
BTW the videos don't appear to work for some reason.
Could you post them both to the OU server?
For those that can not access YouTube
Here are the NS-T cell benchtop videos
Hi IronHed,
Wow this is really a very big gas production !
How is it done ?
Did you wind a small wire around the Nitronic SS rod ?
What is the wire wound around it ?
Can you show please a flame test
after a bubbler, so we can believe that this is real oxyhydrogen gas coming
out there ?
Or just post the details, so we can check it out ourself.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Good gas prduction Ironhead, I knew there was more than one way to get the job, done. Nice going ;D
My video camera has lost its sound some time back. So I will be buying a new cam for the very important sound parts of the new video I am shooting, the HHO burn and implosive force. This must be seen as well as heard. Along with verbal information.
There are 2 videos being done .The first (1 hour long) for those that are building this cell and you know who you are. The second (20 min long) for the on lookers and nay sayers.
This includes the running of a 7500watt generator under load and powering the cell.
And for those that are saying this is nothing but steam, Do you see any steam coming outa that bottle? No matter it will all be proven in time.
Just Build It
And except the Age of Alternative Energy ,you have no choice , it has arrived in many forms world wide. The internet will make sure that this age stands.
IronHead
Just put this video clip up on YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVmHFKHnmro
Ironhead, very nice work! impressive output rate.. but I couldn't help but notice, did I see 2 or 3 sparks jump between the plates? Is that why you only ran it for short bursts?
regards,
-art
Glad you said something about that .Short burst because of heat.
huh ,the crazy thing is about those spark like critters is you do not see them with the naked eye.
If you look close at the end part of the video , the one where it plays over and over.You can see these strange spark like effects at the surface and under the water. Theses sparks run at 90* to the plates.
I first noticed these kinds of effects when videoing my Plasma Reactors .The one in the reactors also you could not see with the naked eye but became clear on video ,dancing all over the place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVmHFKHnmro
Do you think it could be static of some sort? After all we are pulling H and O apart rather abruptly. Maybe it is an R.E. expression of static from the rapid disisotiation of the atoms being ripped apart. IE, from a liquid to a gas. .Hmm.. Photo luminessence on an atomic scale? Hmm. dont that make you think... Makes me think a bit!
Lets build it.
Moab
Yes i think it is electron or photon energy being expelled illuminating water and air particals.I say this because I have seen so much of this in my videos and nothing with my eyes when running these things and I have been running them for many years.
In the Spark 2 pic there ,that sure looks like a full arc from 3 Neutral plates right up to the negative clamp
Maybe EVO occurrence
Here my video Fusion Dance you see these little blue critters dancing about.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2058.new.html#new
Quote from: IronHead on April 04, 2007, 07:53:23 PM
Glad you said something about that .Short burst because of heat.
huh ,the crazy thing is about those spark like critters is you do not see them with the naked eye.
If you look close at the end part of the video , the one where it plays over and over.You can see these strange spark like effects at the surface and under the water. Theses sparks run at 90* to the plates.
I first noticed these kinds of effects when videoing my Plasma Reactors .The one in the reactors also you could not see with the naked eye but became clear on video ,dancing all over the place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVmHFKHnmro
do you get this with "clean" plates? ie: plates that have run awhile or have been "conditioned" in the reaction for awhile?
you can also chemically clean the plates, but the chemical name slips me at the moment, potassium-?...
Tripled
These seem to happen no matter the condition of the plates. Some plates acid washed others dirty and over heated.Some polished like chrome and others with 32 grit scratches in.
I have seen this on cells like this Nitronic Stainless and on my other 316L - 304 Stainless and in a different form in my Tungsten Nitronic ans 316 screen type plasma reactors.
At every amperage 0.1 to 100 and voltage 0.1 to 1000 .
One more thing, these seemingly arcs have never combusted a HHO cell or a plasma reactor .
Just Build It
Study it
Build it again
IronHead
Hi Ironhead,
why doesn?t the gas explode, when these sparks occur ?
Or are these sparks only visible to the camera ?
Not with the naked eye ?
They're only visible to the camera and not all cameras will show them. Also the images seem to be much stronger under this IF light condition that is injected to this cell. This is a Canon Digital Picture camera in video mode.
Just built it
Take a picture and show everyone.
IronHead
IronHead,
can you please post a short video with an ignition test,
maybe let the cell just run for 5 seconds and then ignite some
bubbles with a lighter, so we can see, that this gas is really HHO ?
Somebody a few months back made a simular device, where he produced
just CO2 from baking soda water or simular electrolyte and it also had massive
CO2 gas output.
Many thanks.
Quote from: IronHead on April 04, 2007, 09:46:36 PM
They're only visible to the camera and not all cameras will show them. Also the images seem to be much stronger under this IF light condition that is injected to this cell. This is a Canon Digital Picture camera in video mode.
Just built it
Take a picture and show everyone.
IronHead
Are you injecting InfradRed light into the cell ?
Or does the camera do this ?
BTW Baking soda when electrolyzed become poison
I am using a IR light from a 3x night scope , 5 watt tightly focus IR led beam.
The IR light is not in this video nor is the dc motor to pull off free negative electrons
Here is a short video, no sound so its hard for you to understand how loud and intense this ignition is.
How about 2 second my ears can not handle 5 seconds
There will be more in my full length video with sound.
Sample
Okay, many thanks,
yes watched it in frame by frame mode and one can clearly see,
how fast the gas ignites !
Great !
Looking forward for your new video with sound.
Many thanks again.
Regards, Stefan.
your using an electrolyte in that water also, aren't you?
Tripled
yes but just 5mg KOH to half a gallon of distilled water.
There is just to many things in tap and ground water that turn to poison for me to use in an open cell like this. Stanis Fluoride , Copper, Florian, Chlorine , Hydrocarbons , and all the other wonderful things that leach into our water systems.
People say there is no such thing as free energy and In 100 years from now they will be saying there is no such thing as free water!
Do Something about it!
IronHead
Hi Ironhead,
You mentioned that this new cell acts like a capacitor. Am I right in saying that you pulse the cell until dialetric breakdown occurs? In order to do this you would need a blocking diode to prevent the electronics flowing back when the voltage is at 0V wouldn't you?
What is the voltage actually reaching the plates? Do you have it stepped up or is the 36v DC already stated?
In the video you've got what looks like a coil connected in series with the cell. Is this used to charge the plates using the collapsing field effect when the voltage drops to 0V? A lot of questions I know, but this has to be the most efficient process to have been captured on video!
Am putting together the cell as we speak, once I have the electronics figured out I can get on with connecting up to the engine.
Gentlemen, start your engines!
Show me pics of your cell when the basics are complete ,the cell itself.
Then we can talk about what it might take to make your cell perform.
All cells require different controller configurations and some require no controller.
To everyone else here ,I don't care what your cells are producing.
I want them posted here. I want to see who are the DOers
and who are the LOOKers. If you build it I will help you make it run.
I have found that you can get high production from a single 1/8 rod
or a hundred Stainless pates, it does not matter. What matters is
how you power that specific cell and what you are going to use it for.
One thing at a time
Do Not let the posters discourage you by saying
"well that cell is not producing like IronHeads"
Its not about who is better it's about evolution
of this technology. We will learn from each other.
Some of you sit back and wish you had high tech
reactors that are laser injected with massive circuits
shinny and new like a space ship. Forget it!
Go to the the scrap yard and dig up some stainless
or cut up you kitchen sink. JUST BUILD IT!
If you are worried about
making mistakes and trashing cells and controllers,
then keep burning that gasoline as you will never
achieve a cell without taking risks.
I say what ever it takes
JUST BUILD IT!
IronHead
mramos
The electronic board is not going to help this cell, yet
Lets get it working without electronic first then start thinking about pulsing
With low Volts you need higher amps to build a good strong field
12VDC just don't seem to have what it takes to get a good field going
, but will work. Control the amps to start with using KOH
Dump the skinny highly resistive wires and put in
some good multistrand audio 8 gauge power wire.
Also the plates are to close together and will short to fast.
What kind of water is in there and is there an electrolyte?
Finally it looks like you are drawing power from a power
supply or battery charger ? If so get yourself a battery
and connect the cell to it and the charger to the battery
as it was designed .
One more thing.Take those plates out and see if you can
stick a magnet to them. If the magnet stick strong dump
them and get some non magnetic 316 SS. If these are
316 and have a little magnet pull then put them in the
oven for about 1 hour and bake them.
Built
IronHead
Quote from: IronHead on April 04, 2007, 10:51:53 PM
There is just to many things in tap and ground water that turn to poison for me to use in an open cell like this. Stanis Fluoride , Copper, Florian, Chlorine , Hydrocarbons , and all the other wonderful things that leach into our water systems.
Ok, so it's not just me that noticed this. I've been doing some preliminary tests on some SS I have with a Variac, with rectified output, and the other night I noticed right away the instant brown coloration showing up in the water, then a Chlorine gas smell which prompted me to immediately shut the cell down fearing that I would poison myself. I thought my taste buds were fooling me when I thought I could sense alot of chlorine in the water.
And people wonder where all their health issues stem from.... it's right under their noses.
thanks for throwing that in there, I may have let it go another few times and ended up making myself ill.
-art
Ok lets see the current cell build. With info when posted
Keep on buildiing.
Here is a concept animation of my new injector design .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV2lQUQkbGI
Sabbath "SnoBlind" KOOL! havnt herd that for a while.
Still building ever here Ironhead. No worries. ;)
Almost right Sabbath "In To The Void"
My bad. I found the album.. My wife thanks you.. LOL gonna drive her `crazy all weekend listening to ozz/sabbath..
Into the Void & The Wizard, two of my favorites...
Off topic, yes.. sorry
As you all were
...
Looks like the world is taking notice. My YouTube page and it videos of HHO were in the top 5 listings of " Most Discussed ) - Autos & Vehicles ". It's good to see the interest.
http://www.youtube.com/SGiHunter
Everybody Build It!
IronHead
The Coffee Pot view of a cell 4"x3"x2"
36VDC at 12 amps
CoffeePot cell hot steaming bang.
watch frame by frame if you can.
Sorry still no sound
Video Attached
Reading back through these post might explain the spark. But I have had sparks pop a cell. Just depends on the timing and the type of spark.
"Hit" your cell with ?
I don't use 12 VDC it does not work for me.
Try 36 volts with KOH , add milligrams at a time and wire your plates like this +nnn-nnn+ n = neutral = no connection
Also grind your plates in the vertical to make them as rough as you can.
Horizontal seem to make the bubbles stick longer.
Quote from: IronHead on April 09, 2007, 04:33:43 PM
I don't use 12 VDC it does not work for me.
Try 36 volts with KOH , add milligrams at a time and wire your plates like this +nnn-nnn+ n = neutral = no connection
Also grind your plates in the vertical to make them as rough as you can.
Horizontal seem to make the bubbles stick longer.
Hi IronHead,
many thanks for the infos.
So you are using 3 neutral plates( not connected) between the plus and minus pole plates ?
What are these "spacers" between your plates ?
Are these just nylon washers or magnets ?
What is the exact setup with your rod type cell ?
Is this a Nitronic steel 50 rod wound around with some wire ?
What wire wound around it and how is it isolated from the rod ?
Did you use also there just 36 Volts DC or did you pulse
the cell ?
Many thanks.
Which cell gives more oxyhydrogen at the same power input ?
Regards, Stefan.
The Little HHO Cell . I thank "pese" for showing me this type of design.
I will improve it as I go. Also I have been working with a person that is now running a car on this type of cell. The install was done today.
This is what I call a straight cell ie no pulse at 36VDC.
All Nitronic 50 stainless steel .(316L will work fine) This one has 14 Neutral plates one negative plate at center and two positive plates one on each end.
Spacers are 1/8" Teflon
Plates are roughed up pretty good vertically with 36 grit grinder
Attention builders. No Magnets, we want no magnets in the cell and we want no magnetized stainless.Demagnetized before entering a cell .
This has been trued and tested time and time again by many builders.
Anything magnetic will cause strange electromagnetic patterns between positive and negative plates.A sorta of blocking or deterrence on the natural pattern.
The NS-T Cell
Is 90 volts or so VDC
NS-T is built like a capacitor , voltage increase till it shorts
Pulsed
Coil is not reveled yet as this is a test for the Fuel Injector type cell.
But yes there is a coil involved alone with Pure Tungsten and Nitronic 50 SS
NS-T produces both oxyhydrogen and parahydrogen.
NS-T produces more of both and is very complex. There is a newer version as well. This cell will develop the next step , The HHO Injector.
Yeah get your cell to work well first , Produce as much as you can straight.Ajust your gaps .... Tune it
Then start messing with pulses . Pulses will help to get those bubbles off the plates as well. ok , a neutral plate is positive on one side and negative on the other side. The charge is passing right through the plate causing this to happen . So you have O2 on one side and 2H2 on the other.
KOH just condense it in a water bath bubbler and recycle back to the cell. It solidifies very fast.
When using KOH people have a tendency to add alot after seeing the production increase. Warning put a thermostat on your battery positive terminal as it will get real hot real fast if you use a lot of KOH big amps !
Warning vent the gas out when testing , do not breath gas
Keep Building
IronHead
@ironhead
Hello. A few years ago I was working on a similiar type of water anode cathode system but for electro coagulating of elements in water as my main business is in the water treatment sector. I am enclosing a photo of the system I made for testing purposes. The control panel was made by a friend of mine with certain particulars.
Each voltage pulse is sweeped from 0 to 6vdc then back to zero, then it reverses the polarity on the anode cathode and repeats. Reversing the polaroty inhibits elements from sticking to the anode/cathode. Each pulse sweep is done about once every 1/4 second.
The sweep of the voltage is done to oxydize elements in water such as iron, manganese, hydrogen sulfide, tannin, hardness, etc. Each ion has its own reaction voltage so sweeping the voltage covers them all. The by product of this is hydrogen bubbles.
My anode and cathode are made of titanium mesh sheeting which provides the lowest resistance possible in order to not waste the dc. The titanium surface was specially treated by the supplier according to my specs before shipping and has an estimated service life of 50 years at the voltage range discussed. Two sheets were simply rolled together with spacers in between to fit inside the filter housing.
The unit produces hydrogen bubbles which in itself is a sanitizer so we also get rid of bacteria. But the level of bubbles will be directly proportional to the level of mineral ions in the water. That is to say that the water conductivity will influence the amount of current passing from the anode to the cathode.
So if you use pure distilled water in the system, nothing will happen because there is no possible way for the electricity to conduct through the water. If you used sea water at 35,000 parts per million of mineral (or 3.5%), you will get so much bubbles and at a much lower voltage.
Reading that you are using 90vdc on your anode/cathode tells me that your water may be very low in salts and you need such high voltage to create the effect. If you added some table salt to the water, your system will probably short out given the level of voltage you are using.
I may be wrong here, but I just thought I would give you a run-down on how I use my system. I never thought about specifically producing hydrogen but I will take a poke at this using my titanium elements. I still have alot of sheeting left (very expensive) so I can do some testing when the time is available.
Lastly, when doing tests, I think you should change the water each time since once you apply the voltage, the water conductivity will get lower and lower and hence your applied voltage between the anode/cathode will be modified. You may need a pocket type condutivity meter to make sure your water is always the same, otherwise you may have trouble replicating your results.
In the NS-T cell I want resistants. Again that cell is a capacitor. Seemly no matter the conductivity the water gets ripped apart because of th high voltage spikes.But if conductivity is to high we have a problem.Also the water in the cell is being replenished as it is used.
Table Salt will give you a byproduct of chlorine gas .Also it will destroy the capacitive build and avalanche effect.
There is no problem with replication it works all the time.
Titanium I have tried and is Oxygen reactive.I have tried it also on the negative side but with much less Hydrogen production per surface area then Tungsten ,Nitronic or 316L Stainless (L=low carbon ) that is prepared properly.
On the NS-T the negative side being Tungsten is stable with very high production compared to any cell I have seen.This is on an 1/4" rod, not a bunch of plates. So very little surface area to compared cells.
Imagine for a moment ,if you have seen NS-T cell running that is with 1/4"x 7 " rod. http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2057.0.html
Imagine if there were as much surface area on that tungsten as there was in your treatment cell. Yeah it would be almost to much gas and very very dangerous.
This is the case with cells that I have not posted just for that resign.
This leads me to ask the type of titanium you where using as there are many different alloys?
Thank you for your input.I am very interested in your testing of a cell . If you build you will post here ?
Build It , it will teach you
IronHead
I will build one using my titanium in a few configurations to do some testing.
Titanium Mesh Sheet
- B265 GR2 titanium
- with IrO2/Ta2O5/RuO2 coating
- Sheet Dimensions 9" x 32" and 18" x 32"
- Thickness 1.0 mm
- Openings 12.5 x 4.5 mm
- Fe:0.30% max
- C: 0.10% max.
- N: 0.05% max.
- H: 0.015% max.
- O: 0.25% max.
I also noticed the sparks. I think what is happenning is since your system is making like a capacitor, when you cut the current during pulsing, your capacitor is discharging perpendicular, similiar to Tesla seeing these sparks when he cuts high voltage capacitor discharges abruptly. Or like the TPU guys are trying to do. I think that there may be a way to re-use that energy by using real capacitors to get connected to the elements, when you disconnect the current. Alot of these guys here know more about that but there may be a way of getting close to OU with this if there is a way to grab back the energy dissipated in that spark. At least to raise the production to energy ratio. Maybe use the hydrogen to run a generator to produce the dc to make the hydrogen, etc.
Just last week I was doing some tests on an RV set-up running a 460 volts 3 ph electric motor on 120VAC that I was suppling via a 2400 watts inverter runnning off a 12V battery. Without thinking I unplugged the motor from the inverter while the motor was still running. The invertor just fried because the caps discharged back into it. Those discharges are pretty strong stuff.
As for the electrolyte you are using, what is the mixture required or is this open to the type of cell?
Yes sparks are fun stuff. The one you see in that plate cell video is a poor connection spark from alligator clip as I have had a few pop the cell lately. But the other sparks I have seen ,might be the production of free negative electrons. I am now looking into and testing ideas to pull those free electrons off the cell . Seems that what Meyers was saying about bringing those electrons to a high vibration state using an IR laser just might be the case ,so that they do not recombined the HHO back to water.
It seems to me when people like Joe , "Joe Cell" talk about charging water this is what is going on inside there cell. Some HHO escapes leaving negative electrons behind in an insulated cell.
This is to be treated with the utmost of care . If you stop the electrons for recombining the gas to water .the reaction will not stop. BIG BOOM.
BTW That is a very interesting piece of titanium you have there . I await the outcome of that material in and HHO reactor.
Neutral plate cell progressions .
Now pulsing ,soon to have videos on 3 times HHO output than in the past with this Cell.
Thermal imaging system added on pic 2
Found you mate :)
I am still trying to find a supplier of the 12 volt solenoid vlave model no 2P025-08 made by Jelpc Jelpc will only supply minimum order of 1000pcs
Hey Bro
The engine is sounding like she loves the HHO you are giving her.
From the video , are you using the bubbler as a overflow as well?
I will look around for some valves on this side of the world. If you can not find
I will look into shipping and such.
Also let me know how the speed controller works out when you get it.
Just Build It
IronHead
Quote from: bornman88 on April 13, 2007, 12:48:47 AM
Found you mate :)
I am still trying to find a supplier of the 12 volt solenoid vlave model no 2P025-08 made by Jelpc Jelpc will only supply minimum order of 1000pcs
http://www.mcmaster.com/
Catalog page 430
Everything is stocked and ready to ship - anywhere - easy online ordering.
@ironhead
If you want to increase the efficiency of your Neutral plate cell try and seal each individual cell from the next forcing the current and voltage through the plates...From your coffee pot vid you can tell that most of the voltage will be going around your N cells not through them...This will drastically improve the efficiency of the series cell. You could have 20 individual cells (capacitors).
Nice job on the HHo. Thats quite the output you get.
I would really appreciate some info on how the ns-t_hho cell works. How to make the cell a capacitor? Did you re-wrap a toroid transformer with the chokes and pri and secondary, blocking diode between the chokes going to the electrodes? Was that a Microwave oven cap under the electric motor?
My current cell is running off of 54 volts 6 amps and making 6-7 L/m. That's 150% faraday current efficient.
Not too sure where to go next...
Now that makes sense. Thanks for the correction on the cell.
Now that I look at it understanding this electrical leek I can see it happening.
"Did you re-wrap a toroid transformer with the chokes and pri and secondary, blocking diode between the chokes going to the electrodes"
This is correct
Yes that is a microwave cap it was really there just to hold the motor from rolling around at first.
Sounds like some real good gas production are you running this in an engine yet?
Thanks again
IronHead
My current cell is running off of 54 volts 6 amps and making 6-7 L/m. That's 150% faraday current efficient.
Thats some nice out put. will you stick around and help with the project? Please.
Here we go, HHO. Makes me all fuzzy inside :)
Moab.M
No this is not being used in an engine yet...I am waiting on a couple of transformers to do more testing with. The first transformer puts out 3vac and 50a the second puts out 50vac and .05a...I will be using the high voltage as a carrier for the current through my series cell. I am doing it this way because of wattage. This would be a total of 156 watts of power consumption.
Just for comparison my old cell put out 6-7 l/min on 6 amps with 45 cells. this unit will be running on 53v and 50 amps with 45 cells. There should be a massive amount of hydoxy coming out of this. But this is just brute force electrolysis. I want to get more into the electronic / pulsed stuff like s meyer.
will see in the future.
@ironhead
Will you let out the info on how to wrap the toroid?
Yes in a new up and coming video I am working . I have a few friends here doing some more pro type video work for me.
I'll send you a clip on the coils as it will still be sometime before the full video is complete. Since you are as far along as you are.
I would like to make everyone aware of the ending of the Meyers patents on June 26th, 2007. That means it becomes public domain.
Thank You
IronHead
"My current cell is running off of 54 volts 6 amps and making 6-7 L/m. That's 150% faraday current efficient.
Not too sure where to go next..."
That is GREAT output 324 watt with around 390 liters per hour ( 6/7 l/m)
That equates to 0.8watt per liter of gas produced!
Are you using closed cell application?
Thanks Bro
Yes the cell when completed will be fully closed in and sealed from voltage leaks.
I found the valve I am looking for at $ 2.95 each a real good price out of China
JIM's sells for 24.95 the excact same thing!!
The car project has come to a halt as the plexiglass box with polycarb lid has cracked after two days of driving The car went exteremly well and no timing changes were needed The vibration and extreme heat has finally got to it !
I will have to find another container or have it injection moulded but before i do that i will have to do more homework
I have a whole bunch of parts on order from your homeland and thanks to JIM I am two weeks behind schedule
I am working on an auoto fill system as the close cell is very touchy when it runs low or high on fluid
Well I don't think it is such a big deal...lol.
This cell used to run on 123v at 6 amps. That put is at 738watts. >:(
You only need 1.24 volts per cell, any more than that the voltage just goes into making excess heat and a loss in efficiency. Just use only the amount of voltage you need and keep each cell sealed from the next.
now that is one pretty SOB.
Great job man!
So what are you using it for ?
Nothin i tore it down to build another one...This one will be much better.
Also want to mention that this cell is not a boiler...it does not get hot.
Yes because you are matching volts to plates.
Well done
lets get you into some pulsing and so forth. Have you studied any of the methods of using electronics?
Yes right now I am in the process of getting parts to replicate dave lawtons / meyers VIC. just need the vero board and caps and resistors. got everything else including the 200v 35 amp mosfet.
@hkyle, Take a look at the new Dave Lawton circuit, I put on overunit http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2102.50.html
Note the change in the VIC circuit, this is over 300% effiency over Faradays.
With the chokes added in, it really took down the amperage, but note, you have to hook up the chokes right. Give the chokes three too four layers each, that's 34+33+33=100 or 25x4=100 respectfully. Then you have to hook up the positive coil with the starting winding going too the WFC, the negetive is just the opposite, the start of the winding going away from the WFC. If you can make the negetive choke coil adjustable, that way when you get really close yo u can fine tune it better.
Does anyone have an actual diagram of this set-up.
@IronHead
Your coffee pot system is 4" x 3" x 2" so I am assuming that each plate is 3" x 2" or 6 square inches each. Since there are three cells, not counting the neutrals (18 sq.in.) under current at 36VDC and 12 amps, that would make 432 watts or 24 watts per square inch.
Also there is the fact that both sides of the plates would count as surface area. What I am trying to get at is I think it is important to refer to the voltage applied by square inch or some other relative term as others are giving their specs but we do not know the surface area. Also, the neutral plates can be counted and expressed to give some relation from one unit to the other. Let's say, in your case, you are using 6 neutral plates, that's 36 sq.in. So we could say you system is a 24 watts per square inch over 36 sq.in. neutral plates. Or we could say a 24W/36. But I do think there should be some standard method to decribe these units for comparison of results.
Lastly, is there a standard method to measure the actual hydrogen production. Also, is hydrogen production always 100% per volume, or is it like when we produce ozone (O3) which is usually in the 1% - 5% level.
Hi wattsup.
The calculations would have to be in a cell that is filled with distilled water. and of the same design. Because every city's water treatment is different, It would be difficult to use a resistance from one cell to another.and from one city's or private water well owner's water. here is the rub as it were. If you have your own water well your water will have different minerals than the next guy. and so the resistance of the cell would be greatly different from one cell to another even if they are built exactly the same. So it would be necessary to use the same or as close to the same water as we can get in every cell of the same design. This would create a base line, a "Rule of thumb" to use when calculating a cell for size, plates, voltage, amperage. But then again I am a new guy here in the HHO world. maybe i am way off base here. I do agree that a baseline or (rule of thumb) for cell design would be of great value. But one must consider that water is of different characteristics from one place to another. Ironhead has a water well. So you can see in his videos that the well water has a small amount of iron in it. and probably some calcium as well as other minerals. So if we used Distilled water it would be the same for everyone. and the numbers would also. Just a Thunk. i hope i wasn't too far off topic. Moab
The water difference is of importance especially when we get in to vary high voltage cells. I've seen this In some of my cell designs. :)
OK, first off I did the pictures so people could see the cell and its makeup .
You can clearly count the 17 plates and 16 cell cavities .
The neutral plates are about 2x2 inches the anode and cathode are 2" by 3"
the over all stack length is about 4 ".Sorry about typing out the dimension in the wrong order.
I am not to sure about this deal with a cell only producing to a certain point of voltage and nothing more above the voltage but heat.Amps create heat as far as I know. I clearly have used voltages far above plate count or surface area ,and have had far more HHO produced along with heat.Take look at the NS-T sinlge 1/4 inch rod cell and compare to the 17 plate series cell. For me heat is not a problem as I cool the larger cells . If I get more HHO you beat I will deal with excess heat.I don't test HHO by seeing how fast it fills in a bottle (Liters per Min) This test can lie as you do not know the ratio of one gas to another or if it is even HHO . I test HHO in a piston engine. Also alittle bit of steam slows the burn time or the time it takes for atoms to recombined as it were. A perfect ratio cell is great and all with little heat and such ,but will it run a car without having to toe a trailer size cell .
The resign for these very small cell test is to build as small as possible right down to the size of an injector. The higher the voltage the more powerful the electromagnetic field that is pulling the 2H2 and O2 apart I believe.
What kind of pulsing do we want to help in the process?
Where does the electromagnetic field come into play?
Once we pull the atoms apart then what?
We are only dealing with one type of Hydrogen
here ,is there another type that we should think about?
How do we stop 2H2 and O2 from recombining in the cell?
How do we raise the octane which will slow the burn time
for use in an automotive engine and run full HHO no other fuel?
What do we know about liberated electrons?
I will be covering all of this in the near future.
IronHead
opps wrong button
Yes. to all of that. I-H. But Our current ICEs are not made to run HHO. So isnt it better to use the HHO H2o2 as a catalyst to make a Full burn of the carbon in the fuel Gasiline/Diesel our ICEs are designed to run on.Please be patient I have much to learn. Question,, I know HHO helps but to run the motor on pure HHO some changes to the basic ICE are needed? maybe a rotary/ Wankel engine would give better HP-fuel ratio than a conventional ICE. Ive always wanted to play with a rotary engine ;D I have herd it said the wankel will run on just about any fuel. HHO would be a fun way to test that theory. Far from Cell design i know. Sorry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine
Mazda rotary engine is the same . Buy one and test it out.
"bornman88" your doing a Mazda right?
How is the new cell material search going?
But the question is can we tailor HHO to burn like gasoline or LP and the answer is yes , yes we can. We can even get it to burn as slow as Diesel fuel with the proper inert gas mix.
For now lets just get it into the engine as a fuel enhancer . One thing at a time.
Then we can talk about using inert gases from the exhaust to slow the burn for
this fuel enhancer to burn the fuels together. This is only one way to slow the burn of the HHO gas by putting an inert gas between the atoms will slow there bonding in the combustion engine. Gasoline will not do this as it is a liquid and the HHO burns off before the gasoline does mixing more water in with the gasoline before it even has a chance to burn. The idea is to inject inert gas into the HHO mix before it goes into the cylinder chamber. This raises the octane closer to that of Gasoline.
If you have a cell in a car and want to do this ,Post it.
One day you might find yourself turning off the gasoline to that engine if you evolve the cell to that point. It can and has happened.
Arabs you can pay me now or kill me later,
it does not matter. Because I am about to show it all
in the next coming weeks.
IronHead
Single cylinder Injector prototype based on NS-T and photon light emitter.
Liquid cooled.
And here is a little piece of what Stanley has to say about an HHO injector.
http://waterpoweredcar.com/pdf.files/section6.pdf
Sir yes sir! now if i only knew how it worked and how to build it. I dont know if i can wait a few weeks. Thanks for tha PIC!!
I meant "over" a few weeks. Meaning many cell types and concepts will be covered along with what works and does not,posted on a day by day bases. There is enough info here right now to build a cell that will improve your fuel consumption.
As you learn new ways you can apply the new ways to you existing automotive cell
or benchtop cell.
Thank you!
you dont owe any one any thing. And it is way Cool 8) Of you to help us out! I know i need the help. I'm a newb. Back to the bench,
MegaSquirt ECU
Here is a do it yourself single to multi port injection controller , up to 16 injectors.
This is a very good idea for handling liquid and gaseous injection systems.
A combination of 8 gasoline and 8 HHO or any combination would be fully controllable via laptop or PDA
http://www.glensgarage.com/catalog/index.php
Just Build It
IronHead
Great site...I saw a similar setup kit for controlling your own injectors, adding more or less fuel into your engine. The kit was designed for racing...
@ironhead
Just a question but should I keep on going with dave lawtons rep of meyers vic, or do you know of a good pwm for pulsing high current..
I would like to get my pulsing setup complete before I start building my new cell. Again it will be another sealed series cell.
Have you ever looked into the pulse DC motor controllers like that used in electric cars or scooters. I use this one on my Jeep cell . It 's fully programmable 14 to 58 volts and
can handle up to 330 amps. The 48330 Motor Controller
http://robotcombat.com/marketplace_speedcontrollers.html
For testing you can try something like this but it is not programmable , just a cheap way to go for testing, pulsing ,and controlling amps.
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/product_p/co-ct-816b9.htm
I have been working with the VIC and do not prefer it at this time.
This is why I have not yet posted anything about the VICs design and its outcome.
Also in the VIC pdf (Attached) there are many things to confuse or to cover the patent.
For instance there are no resisters at the chokes , It's just showing two or 3 ways to do it in the same layout.
Volts are key in a capacitor type cell.
IronHead
Well I guess I will have to find another alternative?.My wife will kill me if I spent 500$ on a speed controller..lol.
Try this hybrid circuit h2opower has posted on this page. A build your own pulser with chokes.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2102.50.html
that is Dave Lawtons rep of meyers vic.
oh yeah it is. I have not built that one . It looks to be proper , Stick with it.
Any ideas on what to buy for a toriod.
actually I was going over meyers pattents and he says a core that is 1.50 inch in diameter and 0.25 inch in thickness. I have lots of toroides from computer power supplies that are very close to this description.
My Slow Burn HHO.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DesuxiMR-OM
I would like to thank "Gumpy" for leading me to this type of Parahydrogen .I believe it is essential for my next generation cell.
New experiments are showing that full on HHO can be run in a combustion engine of any type without the need for ceramic coatings or forged pistons.
Ironhead
Can I get that in an AVI?
(Damn corporate jail cell cubicals!)
Glad I could help.
Might be good to make orthohydrogen and parahydrogen with adjustable ratio.
deleted avi ,check next page
How do you make parahydrogen? sorry for my lack of knowledge.
Tried to open the file and WMPLayer said corrupt file unreadable. Any one else get that?
With the AVI file, the image freezes shortly into the video. Right at the ignition flash.
Tried WM and RealPlayer - same thing.
Maybe Ironhead can update that post with another file.
That was the newest Divx 6 codec .
Lets try the trusty old 4.12 it should work fine.
SLOW BURN HHO
I just realized something I wanna point out. To my knowledge you can't make metal unatractive to magnets, just by heating it up, that only works to demagnetize permanent magnets. No matter what the order of the domains, the iron atom will always attract magnets.
With 316 stainless when you weld, machine or cut it, It will take on magnetic fields in those areas that have been worked . Simply evenly heat anneal the piece and it will get back to its very very low magnetic properties. So low that a magnet should not stick.
Why are some things magnetic and others are not. Because there electrons all spin the same way.This can also be forced through inducing a field. Like that of a spinning blade along with localized high heat increases.
The real world
Just do it and it will teach you
IronHead
Quote from: IronHead on April 24, 2007, 09:16:35 PM
That was the newest Divx 6 codac .
Lets try the trusty old 4.12 it should work fine.
Interesting movie.
How do you get it to burn so slowly ?
Is there also generated some other gas with it ?
Not just HHO ?
One thing:
Please next time only use
300 Kbits/sec datarate at 352x288 resolution.
Almost 1 Mbit/sec is much too much bandwidth
for these small movies.
This saves a lot of bandwidth costs.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: buzneg on April 24, 2007, 09:44:27 PM
I just realized something I wanna point out. To my knowledge you can't make metal unatractive to magnets, just by heating it up, that only works to demagnetize permanent magnets. No matter what the order of the domains, the iron atom will always attract magnets.
We Blacksmiths heat steel up till it is no longer attracted to a magnet then quench it in oil or water or other. The non-magnetic stage tells us the temp of the metal, very accurate.
Sorry about that hartiberlin those were settings for something else, I was in a hurry so the guys here could see the video. I will from now on make sure I check and reset my setting proper. 352x240 at 300kbs
The video has been changed out to these new settings.
I am not sure about 352 x 288 I have never seen that resolution before.
This is Hydrogen and Oxygen nothing more. This type of hydrogen is called ParaHydrogen .Up until now only very small amount of this type could be produced ,using a SS coil in water and some low feqs . But as you can see large amounts are poring off nicely.
do you produce enough HHO to feed a car or VUS with your current setup ?
look really good so far nice work!
These are just experiments to understand and build the next generation of HHO systems to run cars, generators and such.
Thats why this is all done in such small forms ,at this moment until which time that all these studied systems can be accumulated and integrated into a superior system.
I will release details as I go and understand them . I will not release info that is not complete in its study unless there is someone that is doing the same thing.
It is possible to happen across very dangerous things while in these infant stages . It is well known that 1 cc of water has unimaginable energy stored with in it . If the atoms of hydrogen in some way go critical to the point of collapsing to a photon then "Huston we have a problem". good or bad we still have a problem. So until I fully understand what is going on. I will show my progress here. Then later discuss points of development.
If you were to try and run HHO where the hydrogen was ortho only without gasoline you will burn holes in your pistons Ask BMW about that lol. So you would have to ceramic coat the cylinder walls the heads and run forged pistons.
Along with Stainless valves and ceramic sets .That will cost you more than the car did.
With my new system this will not need to be done on any engine.
I will revel more as this adventure goes on .BTW none of what I am doing is a concept , I build it , it teaches me what to do next.
When I am done I teach you.
Then when you build it you can teach me.
Hence the evolution of all things man made.
Okay, IronHead,
352x288 is European quarter sized PAL standard.
US people mostly use 320x240,
that is also okay at 300 kbit/sec.
These DIVX codecs are good enough to
encode at these settings and still produce
a good video image.
Many thanks.
Looking forward for your longer videos on Youtube
with the bigger HHO gas production.
Regards, Stefan.
Ok ironhead for baseline standards please list the ; voltage,amperage,frequency (if any), gas produced(A gas capture system would be nice), amount of time to produce said gas volume, and distance between electrodes. With some standardized results we can put together some charts to help elimnate repetitive systems. Possibly a group can be put together to break the work load down. Person x tests 0-12volts for all distances (since we know production distance for 12v is relatively small), Person y 12-24v, etc. A standard setup would have to be agreed upon and procured by each individual.
Just a thought.
Quote from: d3adp00l on April 25, 2007, 10:47:46 PM
With some standardized results we can put together some charts to help eliminate repetitive systems. Possibly a group can be put together to break the work load down. Person x tests 0-12volts for all distances (since we know production distance for 12v is relatively small), Person y 12-24v, etc. A standard setup would have to be agreed upon and procured by each individual.
Just a thought.
This sounds like a great idea. I for one don't have the extra money laying around to go through some 10-15 different designs and eventually find a good baseline to work off of. If we could all get on the same page with the same starting point and work together this would be a much easier task.
http://www.hydrogentap.com/hydrogentap_001.htm
He is about the only one I have seen that is actually providing (at close to cost) what he is working with. And if you dont want to buy it from him you can build the thing yourself. Most people post and give out their old technology since they have already moved onto something else.
@mark Iagee john(hydrogentap) is doing a termendous job. however There is alot of work to be done to fully understand these effects. And I for one am beyond tired of hearing how this one guy "accidentally" discovered a breakthough and can produce as much as everyone needs, only problem is ;1 he is dead;2 his workshop etc was broke into and everything taken;3 he sold the idea to a big nameless corp; 4 he can reproduce the effects;5 he won't sell you anything and will not show you it working but you can build one if you want, basic all hogwash and smoke. Either stamp this stuff in concrete or quit playing around.
Oh so there is some interest here , Thats a good thing.
First off I dont build cells in a lab to give out data , I build cells to run engines. If the engine runs ,it works !!
These are the kinds of test we like to do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtKRe4bkBLI
I will go over the startup cell again this time with some pics and so forth.
So you guys can get something going to show the out come.Then I will get you caught up using that same startup cell. No need to build 20 cells , we will just apply different things to a universal cell .
"Hydrogen tap" is doing ok, but he is not on the highend .Although he is a subscriber to my page he has his own way of doing things. I work with many people on YouTube. Here is my buddy "bornman88" page. A very nice cell setup running.... well you will see.
. bornman88 is one of the top guys out of about 5 on this level. below this level there are about 20 people working with this basic series setup.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=bornman88
So join in if you are a real builder . If you just waiting to see a final build and copy it
then dont bother,as you will never understand enough to make it work.
Soon to come the basic setup cell
IronHead
And with random acts of individuals we are where we are. I don't compile data ironhead, however without a standard by which to start is how can progress be made. There are many many many people in the world working on this, if there is a better starting position than another then it would be nice to know so that people can stop wasting time. John is doing a termendous job because what he is doing is well explained and repeatable, why should a couple thousand people keep starting at the same point, it just makes no sense. To build on eachothers work will advance things by leaps and bounds. However ironhead you have the right not to tell us what exactly you were doing, it just leaves room for questions.
And if your goal is to run a motor, how much hho do you need? Producing gas is just a matter applying power, is there a better range of voltage, better plate/pole config. With all these people working and still no real answers.
I say I am going to help you build cells and you softly bash me.
I tell you I am going to give you a primer to start from and you deny my saying it.
My goal has been far long meet . I was going to do this for you because you asked it of me .Along with others here.
I owe you nothing ? then stop begging.
How much time do you think it takes to put together something that will make sense to the world , that only makes sense to you ?
I could give you exact dimensions , exact materials, exact pulses to blow yourself up and you still wont get it to work . WHY? because all thing vibrate and then resonate differently and you will lack the knowledge it takes to tune the cell. So we start out with brute force ,because anyone can do brute force and make lots of HHO.
Besides all of this I have posted enough info and video for you or anyone to build this Litte HHO Cell . If you dont like what you see don't build it and don't beg for more..
BTW who is we ? you and your slacker buddy's that do nothing but bitch about the problems of the world and do nothing about it.
Still
Ironhead
The beginning ???`?._.?>
memo , you guys that have little finance for this project
go to your local sign shop. They have everything you need
for the main build in scrap. They will give you all you need
in most cases.
Next `????
Ebay "scooter battery" , there are many 36 volt pack cheap deals .
Memo , let GOOP dry for at least 4 days before handling or submersing cell.
Memo ,do not put any glue on the plates as they will be removed time and time again
I don't know...
You didn't give a 100 page thesis, 50 pages of engineering drawings, or CAD files.
ROtFFLMFAO !!!!
Screw you Grumpy , I kick you ass. PASS ME ANOTHER BEER!!
I am going to do that but I am going to do it in 15 ancient languages!
Thats with alot of misspelled words . As you can see I can't spell.
MUAHAHAHA
êÃ,¿Ã,§Ã¡Ã,µÃ,»Ã,ªÃ©Ã,»Ãâ,,¢Ã,¹Ã,«Ã,¹Ã,µÃ,¡Ã‘Ã,º !Ã,¡!Ã,¡!Ã,¡!Ã,¡ Ã… ÆÃ,£
Ironhead
I'm with grumpy on this one. Do you really have to be so cryptic Ironhead? How are we to follow such complex instructions? :-[ ,, I mean really! with big words like GOOP! Brute force and all,,,, geezz!
;).M. lmmfao!
I alredy Built it.
FOMCLMAO.
you guys are great hehehe
Ok build it
I will "come down with fire ,lift your spirit higher , someone screaming my name , come and make me holy again "
IronHead
I'm the man on the silver mountian.. Common Ironhead, finish the song.. DIO rocks
lol
I'm a wheel, I'm a wheel
I can roll, I can feel
And you can't stop me turning
Cause I'm the sun, I'm the sun
I can move, I can run
But you'll never stop me burning
Come down with fire
Lift my spirit higher
Someone's screaming my name
Come and make me holy again
I'm the man on the silver mountain
I'm the man on the silver mountain
I'm the day, I'm the day
I can show you the way
And look, I'm right beside you
I'm the night, I'm the night
I'm the dark and the light
With eyes that see inside you
Come down with fire
Lift my spirit higher
Someone's screaming my name
Come and make me holy again
I'm the man on the silver mountain
I'm the man on the silver mountain
Come down with fire
And lift my spirit higher
Someone's screaming my name
Come and make me holy again
Well, I can help you, you know I can
I'm the man on the silver mountain
I'm the man on the silver mountain
Just look at me and listen
I'm the man, the man, give you my hand
I'm the man on the silver mountain
Come down with fire
And lift your spirit higher
I'm the man on the mountain
The man on the silver mountain
I'm the night, the light
The black and the white
The man on the silver mountain
Back to the bench
IronHead
geez now I'm gona have this song in my head all day :-\
built it..
Still don't know about the efficiency if there is that much current leakage around the cells...
ummmm maybe efficiency doesn?t matter....
This is the gasket that I use to seal the cells with.
hkyle dude you are already ahead of everything on your cell dont use it to do these experiments . It wont be long till we are closing up the cell like you have built then we will move forward.
efficiency will increase as we close in the cell in time and ... . ...
This is the beginning we want to see some leak here .This way with our own eyes we can recognize
Memo do not put any glue on the plates as they will be removed time and time again
Forget what you know
We start new with nothing but basic
IronHead
OK i will follow....put in my 2cents every now and then...
I feel like one of the smart kids in the back of the class telling the teacher to hurry the hell up so I can get on the roll again. but i guess it's not fair to those who are not that far ahead...patience...we will get there.
ha ha too funny.
I can't beleive it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFH36je9Hro
Everyone that builds this test cell to the completion of the 3d prints please sign in.
Then we will move on.
Meanwhile does anyone here understand what is going on at the atomic level inside of these cell cavities . If you do please reply and we will talk about that .
Everyone
My computer is interactive with me while I build . You might notice
< from my av. no mouse or keyboard , replaced by gloves with gesture . Wall projection monitor and or head mounted display with look though LCD shutter technology.
This means I am here most of the time.
Thank you
IronHead
Ya mean
In the cell current disassociates the water molecule into hydroxide OH- and hydrogen H+ ions. At the cathode, hydrogen ions accept electrons in a reduction reaction that forms hydrogen gas. At the anode, hydroxide ions oxidize and give up electrons to the anode to complete the circuit and form oxygen.
Why are we enclosing every set of plates and not letting the water flow freely around them? Do we let the water flow over the top of the plates from cell to cell? Please explain the cell cavities.
Once we have seperated the water molecule are we passing it through some sort of paramagnetic absorber to produce the more desirable parahydrogen? It seems that the "quality" of the gas becomes more important at some point than the lpm. If we got the correct ratio of parahydrogen with ortho with a mixture of air into the fuel intake we could control the power of the reaction and limit the need to use ceramics or some other high heat material within the engine.
ok MarkEngr go back and read the 3d prints first off . the top and bottom are open at this point . go back a few pages from there and and read everything to this point .
There is no para yet we will get into that later. We are starting from ground 0 here.
Quote from: hkyle on April 27, 2007, 02:17:14 PM
Ya mean
In the cell current disassociates the water molecule into hydroxide OH- and hydrogen H+ ions. At the cathode, hydrogen ions accept electrons in a reduction reaction that forms hydrogen gas. At the anode, hydroxide ions oxidize and give up electrons to the anode to complete the circuit and form oxygen.
Good post
anyone else like to explain whats going on in a cell cavity ?
Learning is part of saying it . and helps me to understand where everyones head is at.
If you don't understand speak up as well.
Quote from: IronHead on April 27, 2007, 02:33:15 PM
ok MarkEngr go back and read the 3d prints first off . the top and bottom are open at this point . go back a few pages from there and and read everything to this point .
There is no para yet we will get into that later. We are starting from ground 0 here.
Yeh completely missed that. Please dont post any more important information/schematics close to lunch. Damn Habanero hot wings make my eyes a little fuzzy.
I'm waiting for the next question to be posted "why are there so many neutral plates.. ;D
It's great to see that along with a smart bunch of guys out here, you also have good taste in music too...
-raptor
Quote from: rapttor on April 27, 2007, 02:56:49 PM
I'm waiting for the next question to be posted "why are there so many neutral plates.. ;D
It's great to see that along with a smart bunch of guys out here, you also have good taste in music too...
-raptor
Thanks, So many N plates. I don't know ,build it and lets find out. :)
Cheap to build from scrap
EVERYONE keep going back to the 3d drawings page 14 . I will post memos there.
Yes PLEASE READ!!
This will be getting Very DANGEROUS, you must understand it all first, that is why Ironhead is starting from the begining, to help out those who don't fully understand. I will stick around to help out answering Q's but only if you promise to READ...
Because I started this efficiency thing with sealing off the plates I will give out why but Please follow Ironhead as he gets going...
this is very simple...When you have a cell like the one ironhead just showed you will notice that he has no isolation between the cells. He is not forcing the current and voltage to go through all the plates. The voltage will find the least path of resistance thus the current/voltage will go around all the ss plates till it finds the + side.
Does this help?
Quote from: MarkEngr on April 27, 2007, 02:46:27 PM
Quote from: IronHead on April 27, 2007, 02:33:15 PM
ok MarkEngr go back and read the 3d prints first off . the top and bottom are open at this point . go back a few pages from there and and read everything to this point .
There is no para yet we will get into that later. We are starting from ground 0 here.
Yeh completely missed that. Please dont post any more important information/schematics close to lunch. Damn Habanero hot wings make my eyes a little fuzzy.
Yes thank you "hkyle"
We will in time be getting to closed and open cell and there part in these cells. there will be two types of cells covered here Ortohydrogen fist then ParaHydrogen this one cell will do both,reconfigured.
We will be using both open and closed cell designs they will teach you as you watch them bubble away. They will teach how they want water to flow we will obey that flow.
As far as the neutral plates are concerned?Surface area is everything when making Hydrogen/Hydroxy. The more plates you have the more surface area you have to make the hydrogen. In a series cell you normally only have 1 Positive plate and 1 Negative plate.
+nnnnnn- this is 8 ss plates with 7 cells. Count your fingers, how many spaces do you have between your fingers..4..
The lowest possible voltage to make hydrogen is 1.24 volts per cell. So in this case you would need a minimum of 7x1.24=8.68 volts.
Ironhead?s example has 19 plates with 18 cells. 36 volts means 2 volts per cell.
Also in a series cell each side of the N plate has a + and ? potential.
This would be +plate +n- +n- +n- +n- -plate
Quote from: IronHead on April 27, 2007, 03:03:38 PM
Quote from: rapttor on April 27, 2007, 02:56:49 PM
I'm waiting for the next question to be posted "why are there so many neutral plates.. ;D
It's great to see that along with a smart bunch of guys out here, you also have good taste in music too...
-raptor
Thanks, So many N plates. I don't know ,build it and lets find out. :)
Cheap to build from scrap
EVERYONE keep going back to the 3d drawings page 14 . I will post memos there.
ok easy now all in time be patient.
Quote from: IronHead on April 27, 2007, 12:24:36 PM
...
My computer is interactive with me while I build . You might notice
< from my av. no mouse or keyboard , replaced by gloves with gesture . Wall projection monitor and or head mounted display with look though LCD shutter technology.
This means I am here most of the time.
Thank you
IronHead
OH MY GOD!!!
It's the LAWNMOWER MAN!!!
lol...sorry.
@Grumpy back you ghostly bastard back to the domain of which you came , back to the rift . GET THE BEHIND ME SATAN!!!!
Ya gotta have fun
hkyle I think the question below is for you
|
|
v
What would the potential difference be between +, N, and - ?
Posted by: Grumpy
OH MY GOD!!!
It's the LAWNMOWER MAN!!!
Ok, I'm glad that I wasn't the only one that thought of that exact same movie when looking at that picture
But doesn't take away from the cool factor of it..
-raptor
(`'Ã,·.Ã,¸(`'Ã,·.Ã,¸ ~ Ã,¸.Ã,·'Ã,´)Ã,¸.Ã,·'Ã,´)
Ã,«Ã,´Ã,·.Ã,¸Ã,¸ "IN HERE I AM GOD" Ã,¸Ã,¸ .Ã,·`Ã,»
(Ã,¸.Ã,·'Ã,´(Ã,¸.Ã,·'Ã,´ ~ `'Ã,·.Ã,¸)`'Ã,·.Ã,¸)
Hi-
You all got to seal the electrolytes between the plates to build the classic "series cell" just as Bob Boyce has shown for years now. Otherwise there will be WAY too much voltage leakage between the plates and you will not have even distibution.
Don't waste your time building a cell without sealing them. Only the gas should be what is connected between them all. I have used round orings between plates which have worked out real well for me if you don't feel like cutting square ones. You'll be looking for between 1.5 volts and 2.2 volts in each cell.
You can build these units up to 70 plates plus even. The advantage is that with the lower amps you will not create too much heat which always will give you trouble when you have 'Amperage Runaway' which is not fun. Build the proper series cells.
Best To All,
hkyle,
voltage drops across gaps like they are resistors - like a voltage divider
EDIT: so, neutral ain't neutral after all (probe them and see that each is different)
Quote from: pg46 on April 27, 2007, 04:11:44 PM
Hi-
You all got to seal the electrolytes between the plates to build the classic "series cell" just as Bob Boyce has shown for years now. Otherwise there will be WAY too much voltage leakage between the plates and you will not have even distibution.
Don't waste your time building a cell without sealing them. Only the gas should be what is connected between them all. I have used round orings between plates which have worked out real well for me if you don't feel like cutting square ones. You'll be looking for between 1.5 volts and 2.2 volts in each cell.
You can build these units up to 70 plates plus even. The advantage is that with the lower amps you will not create too much heat which always will give you trouble when you have 'Amperage Runaway' which is not fun. Build the proper series cells.
Best To All,
I am not god I can't delete post that confuse people because the poster did not read whats going on here!
we ain't even on page 46 yet
Ok , I know now there are going to be people coming in here not reading anything with all the answers with nothing to show. I put this to them with there ideas and concepts , mathematics and such . Show me anywhere in the world someone or something producing this much ParaHydrogen at 36vdc in this tiny area that I have clearly shown.
If I find this impossible to do in this forum I will build a forum where this can take place.
Thank you
I guess if you wanted to get technical, you could make the spacing between the plates adjustable and tune it while it is running - but thought that the spacing was already determined back on pg14.
yup but you ain't seen the wonders of GOOP yet :)
Trust me this is all thought out to reconfigure
Along with build a second cell the same way with different grove spaces
this cell is very cheap to build in the long run there will be both types of Hydrogen produced at the same time for those that wish to go that far.
Para H does not work in a closed cell. Bare with me people .
Yes people must read...
Quote from: IronHead on April 27, 2007, 04:13:09 PM
Quote from: pg46 on April 27, 2007, 04:11:44 PM
Hi-
You all got to seal the electrolytes between the plates to build the classic "series cell" just as Bob Boyce has shown for years now. Otherwise there will be WAY too much voltage leakage between the plates and you will not have even distibution.
Don't waste your time building a cell without sealing them. Only the gas should be what is connected between them all. I have used round orings between plates which have worked out real well for me if you don't feel like cutting square ones. You'll be looking for between 1.5 volts and 2.2 volts in each cell.
You can build these units up to 70 plates plus even. The advantage is that with the lower amps you will not create too much heat which always will give you trouble when you have 'Amperage Runaway' which is not fun. Build the proper series cells.
Best To All,
I am not god I can't delete post that confuse people because the poster did not read whats going on here!
we ain't even on page 46 yet
If I find this impossible to do in this forum I will build a forum where this can take place.
Thank you
Like I said above the N plates have a +and- potential...One side + the other side-
there is alot of difference.
Quote from: Grumpy on April 27, 2007, 03:39:25 PM
What would the potential difference be between +, N, and - ?
Quote from: IronHead on April 27, 2007, 04:21:35 PM
...
there will be both types of Hydrogen produced at the say time for those that wish to go that far.
...
And that is all we need to know!
EDIT: deleted "hydrocarbon fouling crud" - any oils or other hydrocarbons and contaminates must be removed before running the cell.Hkyle: "voltage divider" - space between plates is resistor - stack is conductor
will muck up the water badly
From this did you not understand that I am quite aware that each cell will drop the voltage equal to the number of cells you have....
Quote from: hkyle on April 27, 2007, 03:30:02 PM
As far as the neutral plates are concerned?Surface area is everything when making Hydrogen/Hydroxy. The more plates you have the more surface area you have to make the hydrogen. In a series cell you normally only have 1 Positive plate and 1 Negative plate.
+nnnnnn- this is 8 ss plates with 7 cells. Count your fingers, how many spaces do you have between your fingers..4..
The lowest possible voltage to make hydrogen is 1.24 volts per cell. So in this case you would need a minimum of 7x1.24=8.68 volts.
Ironhead?s example has 19 plates with 18 cells. 36 volts means 2 volts per cell.
Also in a series cell each side of the N plate has a + and ? potential.
This would be +plate +n- +n- +n- +n- -plate
Quote from: IronHead on April 27, 2007, 03:03:38 PM
Quote from: rapttor on April 27, 2007, 02:56:49 PM
I'm waiting for the next question to be posted "why are there so many neutral plates.. ;D
It's great to see that along with a smart bunch of guys out here, you also have good taste in music too...
-raptor
Thanks, So many N plates. I don't know ,build it and lets find out. :)
Cheap to build from scrap
EVERYONE keep going back to the 3d drawings page 14 . I will post memos there.
Then why are you asking about the neutral plates, if you already know?
"Neutral" is a relative term as are "positive" and "negative".
Oh! I see. We are answering the same question in different ways.
Sorry 'bout that.
<-- **Throws D-cell batteries at Grumpy an hkyle**
WHACK!!
Apology accepted....
I was answering rapttors question..Not inquiring about neutral plates.
he wrote.
I'm waiting for the next question to be posted "why are there so many neutral plates..
My bad guys, I didn't mean to almost de-rail the topic, I was being Sarcastic... thinking that the "I want it handed to me, so I don't have to work at it myself" crowd that spoke up before, would be completely confused by the diagrams IronHead posted. But I think it worked better than "The Lawnmower Man" thought...
Big Bada Boom.. ;D
I would like everyone to watch the movie An Inconvenient Truth.
If you have seen it watch it again and then look at what I am trying
to bring to the table.
I am teaching this so that all can understand this from ground 0
Please understand that if you do build a system that can run full on
HHO in an automobile adjusted to LP burn rates. Ever cubic inch of
air you take into that engine will come out purified , cleansed of its
pollutions .
If you run this gas , out of your exhaust will come clean
air and pure water. If we don't do something about these problems
we have on this earth ,we will parish in a very painful way. We must
stand up because our governments are not going to . It is up to us
to fix these problems. We caused this ,we let it happen.
What are you going to do about it?
here is a short clip...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XMn_Ry3z6M
I actually watched this on TV a few weeks back...very interesting.
An Inconvenient Truth Movie Trailer:
http://www.climatecrisis.net/trailer/
Earth is pissed and ridding itself of the parasite known as humanity.
well if ya want to know...my new TEST cell will look something like this.
Will be trying out the high voltage pulsing with this guy...
should be fun.
And no it is no where close to being hooked up.
You made reference to subscribers to your page
"Hydrogen tap" is doing ok, but he is not on the highend .Although he is a subscriber to my page he has his own way of doing things. I work with many people"
I'm new at this and haven't found the page you're referring to.. I'd like to join in.
Keith
My YouTube page
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=SGiHunter
Welcome to HHO and the forums
Quote from: hkyle on April 27, 2007, 11:08:33 PM
well if ya want to know...my new TEST cell will look something like this.
Will be trying out the high voltage pulsing with this guy...
should be fun.
And no it is no where close to being hooked up.
Put some wheels on it ,
Nice setup man
Everyone,
Go back to page 14 and look at the electrical connections of the cell. Notice that the positive is split with the negative in the center. This arrangement is not ordinary or "by accident" - it is very intentional.
By spliting the positive, the mnagnetic fields created by the drift currents in the cell will oppose - imagine two vortexes rotating into each other. Opposing magnetic fields create a longitudinal tempic (time) field. This tempic field is primal to the electric and magnetic fields and cen be considered a sort of pressure.
I have not seen this in any other cell and goes far towards explaining the massive output of parahydrogen.
Opposing magnetic fields are what NASA uses (or used to) to convert parahydrogen to orthohydrogen before launch. I found a patent on this.
Ironhead has given us something truly special. So...
Just build it!
Great point...that would explain this; Thanks for that...
Any diatomic molecule that contains magnetically
active centers exists in isomeric forms that differ in
their nuclear spin configuration.
In the case of hydrogen, there are two isomers, parahydrogen and orthohydrogen.
The para-isomer with an anti-symmetric spin configuration and the triply degenerate ortho-isomers with symmetric spin configurations.
Thank you Grumpy and hkyle great posts
Ok so . Does higher voltage or current produce a greater , stronger magnetic field.
Would not the attraction be greater. If we can control heat and run away with some other means . How do we control current with magnetic fields?
Why? Where ? How?
If we know how to do this can we not build a tiny tiny cell and produce massive HHO? The NS-T cell with its tiny 1/4 inch rod - and tiny little 2" by 1/2" Nitronic +
Or the system that is now being built pic on page 11
Its way off but we will reach it hang in there .
Higher voltage will produce a stronger magnetic field...
Yes the attraction will be greater.
Magnetic fields will hold onto electrons or shoot them off at right angles. I think...
and not sure YET.
Quote from: IronHead on April 28, 2007, 12:36:14 AM
Thank you Grumpy and hkyle great posts
Ok so . Does higher voltage or current produce a greater , stronger magnetic field.
Would not the attraction be greater. If we can control heat and run away with some other means . How do we control current with magnetic fields?
Why? Where ? How?
If we know how to do this can we not build a tiny tiny cell and produce massive HHO?
You guys are really starting to come around . keep thinking about it and when the nay sayers come you will be well equipped. 8)
Magnetic containment field , bend me shape me and don't let me go.
I think everyone should own a VR Supercomputer
Oh thats right you do YOUR BRAIN!
IronHead
deleted......maybe throw that back in some other time..
same...as previous.
maybe I should have put this in the half baked ideas page. lol
Well now you found what I am doing so lets get back to what we are doing.
Lets not get to far off the basic as far as the post goes , Thanks
Grumpy I know you want to add to what was just posted as you know more about me than the rest do ,or maybe we should just leave this one alone eh
Back to the basic cell
You and Grumpy were figuring out way my little basic cell stack works
|
|
v
well then where were we?
ohhh but I know how your basic cell works...If I figure anymore I will just end up deleting more posts....lol
That little blurb I deleted was a theory I thought of back on march 17.
Hi iron head,
hmmm I just read this and your question to show you anyone or anywhere that produce this much parahydrogen, well I can I brought up and showed with my picture last year allready the double unit and introduced the connection what you showed here meaning the negative in the middle and the two endplates connected to the positive and I got profen to generate 1.5LPM with only 12 V and two times 6 cells 2.5 X 3 inches plates. by the way did you ever measure the voltage on each cell? in a setup like this you have a verry high voltage with 36V on your two times 8 plates = 7 cells divided by 36 V and you have 5.1V per cell what is way to high. maximum for this amount of cells should be 18V not to go higher then 2.5V on a 1/4 inch spacing.
I have build the same setup with two times 5 cells and generate 2.5LPM with 12V and 15 A.
I just thought to put in my experience.
greetings
walt
Quote from: IronHead on April 27, 2007, 04:13:09 PM
Quote from: pg46 on April 27, 2007, 04:11:44 PM
Hi-
You all got to seal the electrolytes between the plates to build the classic "series cell" just as Bob Boyce has shown for years now. Otherwise there will be WAY too much voltage leakage between the plates and you will not have even distibution.
Don't waste your time building a cell without sealing them. Only the gas should be what is connected between them all. I have used round orings between plates which have worked out real well for me if you don't feel like cutting square ones. You'll be looking for between 1.5 volts and 2.2 volts in each cell.
You can build these units up to 70 plates plus even. The advantage is that with the lower amps you will not create too much heat which always will give you trouble when you have 'Amperage Runaway' which is not fun. Build the proper series cells.
Best To All,
I am not god I can't delete post that confuse people because the poster did not read whats going on here!
we ain't even on page 46 yet
Ok , I know now there are going to be people coming in here not reading anything with all the answers with nothing to show. I put this to them with there ideas and concepts , mathematics and such . Show me anywhere in the world someone or something producing this much ParaHydrogen at 36vdc in this tiny area that I have clearly shown.
If I find this impossible to do in this forum I will build a forum where this can take place.
Thank you
Right on Walter- thanks, good of you to come onboard again
Sometimes when I try to go back on all the postings listed here and elsewhere I may have easily missed out some data that Ironhead or someone else has posted or I may have completely misunderstood. If so sorry about that fellas but I actually can and do read but some of the posted data is vague and is often plain confusing.
I just wanted to mention or rather 'remind' you all that the "series" type of cells, as they are more commonly known, have been around for years and are well documented as being very efficient.
You don't need a negative in the middle and the 2 positives outside as per one of the diagrams posted here. If your individual cells are electrolytically sealed from each other then you can just have a negative on one end of the cells and positive on the other end and the overall voltage will be divided up equally amongst the cells. The number of plates should be calculated out so that they don't have any more than 2.2 volts per section. Otherwise you are wasting energy and creating unneccessary heat.
I learned this from actual experience and not only theory. I have to refer to other experimenters who have done great work in this field such as Tero Ranta, George Wiseman and Bob Boyce. No sense really in turning in my own data in since these guys have the data available already and they are miles beyond my understanding.
Walter and others on this forum have already been to this place. Thats all I am saying. Don't want to knock anyone around but only want to chip in to help others build efficient cells.
Happy Experimenting,
Walter and pg46:
That's all fine and dandy. Keep building them your way.
This cell isn't using 15 amps and this is only "level 1" - brute force method. Voltage is not the only way to break a molecule and anyone who knows it all is fooling themselves. Proper application of a magnetic field can convert para to ortho on demand.
Had you mapped the fields around a cell in this configuration, you might have seen something peculiar. By this, I mean all of the fields - torsion, electric, and magnetic. This is just the tip of the iceberg, the door of the rabbit hole.
Stick around. You might see something you like.
hkyle: pm me that theory you posted. Ironhead mentioned magnetic electron traps - no we're talkin' - suck them right out of space. Marinov would be proud.
Being deliberately vague - electricity is not the only way to create "magnetic properties".QuoteRoads? Where we're going, we don't need roads.
Grumpy-
Thanks. I always do look forward to learning some more.
Seemingly this isn't related to what you guys are trying to do but just wanted to mention too that both George Wiseman and Bob Boyce claim that in a properly built series cell that there is 'another type of hydrogen' gas that is produced in between the plates. This gas is said to be 4 times more powerful than the other types of hydrogen and so as a result less gas is required to power an IC engine then what might have been previously thought.
I'll look forward to watching you guys make progress in your projects.
Best Regards,
We will be getting into that as well. pg46
I find it freaking amazing that in an OU forum guys still tell you , you can't do this and you cant do that, you have to do it this way, because these guys did it this way and what they say goes ! to build a proper thing. you must you must.
Your way clearly can not be right because these guys have math law and physic law, they really know there stuff!
Mind ,the still energy, Not forceful banging
Bang ,smash it first then put your hammer down. With a paper clip he opened
the door. IronHead
Good job Walter,few have don that. What I call level4 or so.
Shall we do the thimble off water a couple of CCs .No not yet
We will be using 3 batteries on this cell stack, I have specified this.
So we will see 12v,24,36,v and there effect.
This is ground 0
In the end you will all understand where this is going ,everyone.
We can do this on any scale at any voltage. I have done 20,000
volts in a micro cell . A 1000 volt externally driven macro cell. 12 volt monster
series cell. A single pin of SS can produce massive explosive HHO if you know how.
Sounds Like you have done great things Walter .Good
luck with future works.
I am going to show you my way in a sort of tutorial
that will take you on a venture and show you how to
do it wrong and right and "? " You will see from this
"Little startup "cell right up to whats going on with my
injector and why a thimble of water might be one of
the most dangerous (if not proper ) or powerful things
you will encounter as a fuel !!
We are not only going to produce Para and Ortho but we are going to control there ratio by way of shaped controlled magnetic fields.
Have a nice day
IronHead
Great to hear mramos
Be very careful running OrthoHydrogen in a piston engine alone.
Make sure this engine is something you can part with as this type of HHO will burn holes
in the pistons and heads if run with out a control gas or fuel.If you have a CO2 tank (Mig welder) sitting around you can put a little of CO2 in with the HHO and she will burn slower and not destroy your engine.
Good luck
IronHead
key to make it run and not just fire on HHO is still burn time .
Run should not happen no matter the amount of gas .Your timing will not
let it run on this fast burn . It will pop pop a few time yes and maybe blow the head off with a lot of gas. You ether get the timing right or slow the burn and she will run if you have enough HHO.
Hydrogen engines you retard the timing . I have seen from 7 to 80 degrees
Tuning is key ether tune the gas or tune the engine does not matter.
Discover tuning
IronHead
Great stuff keep up the good work.
You could also put a bit of baking soda in the cell
that will produce some CO2 and CO . How ever you do it
you seem to understand it all well. So good luck my friend.
"shaped controlled magnetic fields"
and
"controlled fields" as in other than magnetic.
eventually, perhaps, we won't even need water...
I was very happy to find upon digging out my SS stock last night that I lucked out when I picked it up, it has very little if almost no magnetic properties what so ever.
I decided to go with plate sizes of 3" sq. and the connector plates will be 3" X 4" tall,
I'll get 48 pieces from this one plate, started cutting them on the bandsaw last night, but think I'll finish them with the angle grinder, should go quicker & allow me better accuracy.
Here's some pics...
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gearheadkustoms.com%2Fss316_full.jpg&hash=8d7437d35f5413fec5e29c0b1e5284bdfec076ea)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gearheadkustoms.com%2Fss316_closeup.jpg&hash=3ff87e3b3533e2acc865c7bc416c62d544c9ee2f)
-raptor
"I wasn't purposely airing my dirty laundry in the pic... it just happened that way"
Raptor, if your stock is 22 ga or heavier, it will, yes, I sez WILL be worth yer time to run down to the local metal fabricator and pay the hourly rate to have 'em cut it on the shear. I took some 20 ga 316 L that , after making 15" of cut, snapped the die anvil on my nibbler. That part cost me $80 USD, and the shear man charged me less than $25 to parsect a sheet 3 x 4 feet into various size squares and rectangles.
Had it done in 20 minutes, and they charged a third of an hour ($66 an hour.)
The nibbler handles the thin stuff fine, as does the grinder, where the shear needs a bit thicker stock to cut clean, especially if the blades are old.
Keith
Keith, yeah I've got a several metal fab shops right near me that I could go to and have them use the shear on it, but I'm not to worried about the cut off blade finish from the angle grinder because I've got a full size mill which I'll run them through when all cut, to make them exactly the same size.
thanks for the idea though, I hadn't considered that direction...
-raptor
For me it was more a matter of time constraint. Since they cut it against a stop, all the pieces are identical in size and just need a quick pass with the 120 grit grinder disk to knock off the razor edge. The mill is great, but that's more precision than I have time for right now.
BTW- have you had any problems with spade terminals corroding? I haven't got that far yet, and have several sets of plates, some notched for spades and others drilled for 316 #10 allthread. All have been finished sanded with 220 grit, and passivated in "CITRI-SURF" citric acid solution.
Keith
Ironhead
Here are the video that you requested
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlo05ktK-MM
If you pause the video intime you can get two frames one with the bottle filled with a orange flame and two one in flight
I would like to know how one can freeze a frame the post it on the tube ?
Your discussion on the cell building is interesting!
bornman88
Quote from: keithturtle on April 29, 2007, 09:20:58 PM
For me it was more a matter of time constraint. Since they cut it against a stop, all the pieces are identical in size and just need a quick pass with the 120 grit grinder disk to knock off the razor edge. The mill is great, but that's more precision than I have time for right now.
BTW- have you had any problems with spade terminals corroding? I haven't got that far yet, and have several sets of plates, some notched for spades and others drilled for 316 #10 allthread. All have been finished sanded with 220 grit, and passivated in "CITRI-SURF" citric acid solution.
I think to eliminate the possibility of corrosion on the connections, just use a little vaseline on them, paint it on with an acid brush. Or if you wanted to seal them off entirely, some plasticdip or brush on electrical tape will do it to.
Keith
Thanks for the tip... I hope to have something up and running by the end of the week. How does IH get 120 Hz outa line power? Does a full wave bridge need the bottom half inverted to make it all Positive? How do you invert half the signel? I got bridges, have not yet tried.
Keith
Keith,
The full wave AC signal runs at 60Hz which when passes through a full wave rectifier/ bridging diode converts it to 120Hz. It's like this: nunununun becomes nnnnnnn. Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode_bridge for a good explanation
Rich
Hi iron head,
I have to dis agree in regards to piston engine. I have done many runs with hydroxy only in my 5Hp B+S for second up to a few minuts and the only thing what was flying away was the lid from the air filter from a big flashback. I even have to say it pretty much cleaned the piston head from old carbon. I am working on the setup to run my 10Hp /6,000 watt generator with hydroxy only it starts no probleme, but the engine stalls after a few seconds because the cells did not bring enough gas and the engine runs high with the generator attached.
I thought just to give my two cents from my tests not to scare some fellows.
greetings
walt
Quote from: IronHead on April 28, 2007, 02:25:34 PM
Great to hear mramos
Be very careful running OrthoHydrogen in a piston engine alone.
Make sure this engine is something you can part with as this type of HHO will burn holes
in the pistons and heads if run with out a control gas or fuel.If you have a CO2 tank (Mig welder) sitting around you can put a little of CO2 in with the HHO and she will burn slower and not destroy your engine.
Good luck
IronHead
When BMW's Hydrogen 7 was being developed they found that it didn't need any treatment to the head, the cylinders or the block. They didn't need any ceramic coating as the combustion temerature was sufficent to avoid corrosion and there were no heat issues. The one problem they found is that gas built up in the crankcase and quite a few engines went bang. The H2 they use comes from heated liquid hydrogen stored on board. Whether this is of the para or ortho variety I'm not sure. Could it be that the faster burning orthohydrogen is what we need to avoid?
Quote from: RichardDay on April 30, 2007, 05:11:45 AM
When BMW's Hydrogen 7 was being developed they found that it didn't need any treatment to the head, the cylinders or the block. They didn't need any ceramic coating as the combustion temerature was sufficent to avoid corrosion and there were no heat issues. The one problem they found is that gas built up in the crankcase and quite a few engines went bang. The H2 they use comes from heated liquid hydrogen stored on board. Whether this is of the para or ortho variety I'm not sure. Could it be that the faster burning orthohydrogen is what we need to avoid?
That is Parahydrogen they are burning , Slow burning hydrogen you fucking guys don't read do you.There is a big damn difference here when your trying to prove what I say is wrong get you facts together.
BMW had many Hydrogen endeavors
Quote from: Walter Hofmann on April 30, 2007, 04:55:06 AM
Hi iron head,
I have to dis agree in regards to piston engine. I have done many runs with hydroxy only in my 5Hp B+S for second up to a few minuts and the only thing what was flying away was the lid from the air filter from a big flashback. I even have to say it pretty much cleaned the piston head from old carbon. I am working on the setup to run my 10Hp /6,000 watt generator with hydroxy only it starts no probleme, but the engine stalls after a few seconds because the cells did not bring enough gas and the engine runs high with the generator attached.
I thought just to give my two cents from my tests not to scare some fellows.
greetings
walt
Quote from: IronHead on April 28, 2007, 02:25:34 PM
Great to hear mramos
Be very careful running OrthoHydrogen in a piston engine alone.
Make sure this engine is something you can part with as this type of HHO will burn holes
in the pistons and heads if run with out a control gas or fuel.If you have a CO2 tank (Mig welder) sitting around you can put a little of CO2 in with the HHO and she will burn slower and not destroy your engine.
Good luck
IronHead
Here again ,trying to tell me I am wrong . I SAID DON"T RUN FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME !!
not a few min.
Learn how to read before you post against me !!!
Straight orthohydrogen will burn holes in your pistons if run for long periods of time.
Walter if you are producing Parahydrogen as you said in the other post then yes you can run and engine without this problem. Those back flashes and detonation are because of timing. You can easily bend a valve as well.
I dont' know that this is a good idea . I have to rethink this all
Thank you , the few that can read and would like to learn something
I just have,,, need time
IronHead
Moving forward now...
Cut enough stainless for two cells, ordered some components, have batteries, should be making gas this weekend.
Got my plates coming in today or tommorrow. Going to hit fleabay and try and find the rest of what I need.
Quote from: Grumpy on April 30, 2007, 09:20:20 AM
Moving forward now...
Cut enough stainless for two cells, ordered some components, have batteries, should be making gas this weekend.
I hope you were referring to HHO gas Grumpy...
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gearheadkustoms.com%2Fgases.jpg&hash=b31ca628f40f5f234446ae50c4070df3c2523719)
... sorry I had to, I don't get the opportunity often... ;D
Ironhead,
No part of my post was meant to try and disprove your ideas or contradict your contributions. I joined this forum to escape the pointless arguments and aggresion found on other forums and I sincerely hope this thread does not degenerate the same. All of your input is greatly appreciated and along with many others I am putting these into practice.
However to attack any form of questionning into your approach is to refuse the opinions and questions of others, something completely at odds with a forum based discussion group.
Ok now that its over Are we all up to speed? Do we all have our little test cells built, so we can move on? I even made a new one just for these test..I'm on board lets get HHO surfing 8). And try not to burn your houses down OK! Lol.. M, :)
fun fun fun! ;D
Ok guys , I don't want to talk about making engines run or bending valves from flash back timing detonation, or why HHO burns many many times faster than 21-35% diethyl ether (starting fluid) . and all that later fun stuff. We are not even close to such a thing yet.
I want to talk about water preparation and cell charging at 12vdc as soon as some of you have built or are very close to completing page 14
Some of you might of heard about these things with the Joe Cell.
Moab raises his hand. and ask a question.
Ok now i have my little cell and i have a 12v 800cca car battery. I fill my cell with distilled water. No bakeing soda,KOH salt or any other electrolyte. when i cnect it to my battery i have little bubbles of Hydroxy. I do this for a little while (because i think it is so cool to catch some of ther bubbles and light them ! Bang !)
Now I take my oscilloscope and set it on its most sensitive setting and take some of the water out of the cell, I connect my scope ground to a good earth ground and the probe i put in the water that was in the cell,, Hey somthing is going on here,, I take some of the same distilled water and dip my probe in that,,,, Not the same
Now the question is. What is now different about the water that came from the cell and the distilled water that has never been in the cell?
I can see a difference on my scope. and it even seems thicker? and now it has a slight smell too, whats going on here?
Any answers guys?
;)M.
Maob the psychic
ok so you screwed up you jumped ahead .
take the cell out of the water and dump the
water out and sign in telling me you have
completed the cell stack ,which you just did.
I hate to be harsh ,but there are some very
subtle things that I think are very important
here .
Again similar to the findings of Joe (Joe Cell)
and some things learned from him. But it will
work no matter what mood your in . :)
Water after you charged it , there is change .
we will get into that after we do it right,wrong or ?
the first time.
Together
I do have to say though that was a good post as it prepares people for whats next
Is there anyone close to finishing the cell stack here other than Moab ?
Ok.
Ironhead. I finished the cell. and i am thinking about puting it in close proxsimity to a 12vdc 800 cca carbattery. and some distilled H20 ::). Is there any thing else i should do to it, with it, Like maybe cross my fingers or somthing ??? M.
ok , First don't use distiled water .
use spring water like the bottled stuff . I know a bunch of people are going to say don't do that ,since I brought up the Joe thing. Use spring water anyway there are some elements in there I feel are very important . A good container to do this in is Tupperware type poly. Seems to be a fair insulator. Put the cell in and pour water about 1/4 inch below the top of the neutral plates .
Ok get your 12 volt battery connected up and connect one positive leg of the stack only .
Take the negative side of you battery wire and attach something that can prob each plate . Now with this prob touch each plate from the closest to the Positive for a few seconds , then the next plate do this till you hit the center plate of the cell stack, the negative leg.stop
Once you hit center stop , put the positive on the other end of the cell stack and do the same ,one plate at a time till you hit the center again.
This sounds crazy to some . I cant explain why this works it just does , Molecules or some such.
When done with that , connect both positive legs and you negative the way it is shown on page 14. Stay with 12 vdc let the stack run for about 20 min. keep and eye on heat don't go above 150F.Ok stop after 20min let the thing cool to room temp and hook it up again , run it until you see the water get thick like very high surface tension . Where the bubbles really start to grow good size before they break . now your cell is charged.
You only have to do plate conditioning once .
There is a much more advanced version of this
but we don't need to do it in this cell stack.
Damn , I should change my name to HHO Alchemist .
Its very different when you read then when you just do it .
Even I thought to my self this looks crazy. this IronHead
guy is off his flippin rocker.
Built it
It Works
IronHead
Read it again
use spring water like the bottled stuff?
Use spring water anyway there are some elements in there I feel are very important?
OK would R.O (reverse osmosis) be considered the same....it takes out most of the minerals but anything that can be dissolved in the water will stay....
is that ok?
As long as it is not silver filtered. Some high end RO systems use a silver canister and pump water into this canister where it sweats out the other side . This type produces very pure water because only the water molecule will pass through the silver .
A cheap bottle of water will works better , I feel some of these minerals are important .But yes if you have to and if the above does not apply .
I would tell you to use tap water but there is a problem, you wont be able to see whats going on in the cell when it gets all mucked up from such a source.
The best way of all is to build a water cleaning system that is designed just for this purpose of making HHO in this cell stack. Starting with water from a river ,rain ,underground well . But we dont need to go there yet as this will requirer building a whole new type of apparatus for cleaning water in a specific way.
But I will cover this design in the future once you all understand more about
what we are doing here.
no it is not silver filtered....this has 3 carbon filters and one 5 micron...
should be ok.
All the water around here is alkali so that won't be good..lol
If this does not work i will use bottled water..
yup you will be ok.
I must sleep
Have fun all
Well i guess i'm off to buy a nice big quantity of bottled water...spring water...
Like I said earlier there is too much alkali in the water here, even with the osmosis system.
It's just not taking out enough. toooo much junk to make a nice brown scum on top of the water...that was at 12 volts and .78 amps.
But just to say even after 1 hour of rest the cell still read 2 volts...
wooo hooo i made a battary. ;D
Quote from: IronHead on April 30, 2007, 09:50:22 PM
ok , First don't use distiled water .
use spring water like the bottled stuff . I know a bunch of people are going to say don't do that ,since I brought up the Joe thing. Use spring water anyway there are some elements in there I feel are very important . A good container to do this in is Tupperware type poly. Seems to be a fair insulator. Put the cell in and pour water about 1/4 inch below the top of the neutral plates .
Ok get your 12 volt battery connected up and connect one positive leg of the stack only .
Take the negative side of you battery wire and attach something that can prob each plate . Now with this prob touch each plate from the closest to the Positive for a few seconds , then the next plate do this till you hit the center plate of the cell stack, the negative leg.stop
Once you hit center stop , put the positive on the other end of the cell stack and do the same ,one plate at a time till you hit the center again.
This sounds crazy to some . I cant explain why this works it just does , Molecules or some such.
When done with that , connect both positive legs and you negative the way it is shown on page 14. Stay with 12 vdc let the stack run for about 20 min. keep and eye on heat don't go above 150F.Ok stop after 20min let the thing cool to room temp and hook it up again , run it until you see the water get thick like very high surface tension . Where the bubbles really start to grow good size before they break . now your cell is charged.
You only have to do plate conditioning once .
There is a much more advanced version of this
but we don't need to do it in this cell stack.
Damn , I should change my name to HHO Alchemist .
Its very different when you read then when you just do it .
Even I thought to my self this looks crazy. this IronHead
guy is off his flippin rocker.
Built it
It Works
IronHead
Read it again
I recall saying that this was not your standard starter cell. (but I did not expect this) I will scrounge for stuff to complete before weekend, but weekend is the sure thing. Working 12-hours days so I can have time this weekend to complete this. Me arse is sucking wind...
Anyway, I mentioned before that the positive is split and there is a torsion field setup with this cell. By taking the ground to each plate, you are setting up a gradient diverging at the ground plate. The gradient is the torsion field, the divergence is the electric field.
Dare I use the term "orgone accumulator". I would think that you could use circular rings as well as plates - like a Joe Cell does and I will try this with stainless sheet curled around to make rings. Some that work with the Joe Cell have equated HHO to being "Helionon" - an element identified by Walter Russell as being the opposite of hydrogen and burning by implosion rather than explosion. Russell ideintified many elements before they were actually discovered - many of these are smaller than Hydrogen. Orgone / torsion fields are known to be mentally manipulable, hence the sensitivity of the Joe Cell to people's moods and thoughts.
I think aluminum reflects torsion fields - copper conducts them.
Got to go scrounge now...
Well, finished cutting the plates last night... 2X2" & 3X2" for the connection plates, with extras for experimentation later.One thing I didn't take into account, Peel the Friggin plastic OFF FIRST!! Now I've got 20+ postage stamp sized pieces to pick & pick at trying to get them off(yeah, about as fun as watching Gnat's F*%K).
Cut up some acrylic last night and got the body of the Cell completed... I forgot how much it hurts to have a chip of flying plastic get stuck in your eye... IN YOUR EYE... what happens not 15minutes later while removing the burrs, IN THE OTHER EYE!!(a hopeless zero, I am ... I know).
I kept working, plastic is a joke to a steel splinter that has to be removed by having your cornea scraped... anyway, I'll have it together & ready tonight, I found something Perfect for a plate "separator bracket", and I just happen to have hundred of these at work just taking up space!
I'll post picture progress later on today, after suppah time.
-raptor
"If it doesn't fit.... hit it with a hammer...If It Still Doesn't Fit, .... Get a Bigger HAMMER!"
@IronHead
I am going to get one of my titanium sheets cut to size during the week and will be making one unit with 3x3 +-+ and 2x3 Neutrals. On your diagram on page 14, how many Neutrals are required. Also, what guage is the steel.
I will also have some plates cut to 2x6 +-+ and 1x6 neutrals to do some comparison testing.
Hydrogen production is a function of the surface area being exposed to the water solution at all times, and I am wondering if having a cell rise to high will create bubble stacks that will hinder the contact of water on the plates. I was even thinking of putting the cell on a swing thus moving the cell left 3" then right 3" to keep the plates free of bubbles, but I'll see when this thing is up and running.
Since water treatment is my main business, I will be analysing some elements of the water, most notably the pH of the water before and after, since pH is a direct function of the hydrogen ion in water.
My 1x6 cell will be tested against the first as both will have the same total surface area to react with, I want to see if the hydrogen has less distance to rise out of the column, if this will maintain a higher water to plate surface contact ratio.
Now I have to figure out how I am going to quantify the hydrogen production although the percentage of hydrogen will be difficult to know. If I took a compressor and holding tank, took the tank weight with only air pressurized to lets say 15 psi, then emptied the tank and filled it with the hydrogen to 15 psi and weighed it, the difference in weight may give the production. I'll have to work on that.
All the best and thanks for your guidance.
@wattsup
There are many ways of getting the bubble up out of the cell cavities . We will do it later by pumping them out . Flow systems and how they are built and what materials are used are very important and we will get into that soon.
How many neutral plates ? 16 by my count.
You guys have to let me know if these drawings are not clean or are to dark for you to see. Alot of times most peoples gamma is way out on the monitors.
As far as thickness goes of these plates . Anything 16 gauge or less, nothing so thin that it can not support itself though. I mean nothing to flimsy .
Good luck on the Titanium cell . I want every one to know what "wattsup" is doing is not with a standard sort of Titanium . He is using a very specialized material .Standard "AL or CP" types of Titaniums are oxygen reactive.
@Grumpy ,you touched on something that we will be talking about here, the use of aluminum as a shield. Also circular disks work very well as long as you can encapsulate them later. I did not want to make this to hard to build hence the right angles.Rings though , I am not to sure about unless you are talking just like the Joe cell? Tubes more or less. Message me about this.
@rapttor be safe dude ;)
Ya know I just might have one of those....I will give pics at a later point.
Quote from: IronHead on April 30, 2007, 10:38:07 PM
The best way of all is to build a water cleaning system that is designed just for this purpose of making HHO in this cell stack. Starting with water from a river ,rain ,underground well . But we dont need to go there yet as this will requirer building a whole new type of apparatus for cleaning water in a specific way.
But I will cover this design in the future once you all understand more about
what we are doing here.
hkyle
If you do use it! There is no better way to condition water as far as I know for this type of project.
This might explain "Helionon"
Ok , does any one know here about the implosion effect and when it can happen ?
The HHO we are producing now is an explosive effect. What do we need to know to create and implosive reaction or to avoid it?
Here is the idea . If we can implode before top dead center in and piston engine then after top dead center we explode . So imploding to pull the piston up and explode to push it back down . this adds a new partial cycle to the process.
It is abit soon to get into this but we can cover it alttle bit now why you guys are building charging and such.
just retard the timing?
Quote from: IronHead on May 01, 2007, 03:56:28 PM
This might explain "Helionon"
Ok , does any one know here about the implosion effect and when it can happen ?
The HHO we are producing now is an explosive effect. What do we need to know to create and implosive reaction or to avoid it?
Here is the idea . If we can implode before top dead center in and piston engine then after top dead center we explode . So imploding to pull the piston up and explode to push it back down . this adds a new partial cycle to the process.
It is abit soon to get into this but we can cover it now why you guys are building charging and such.
um no. There must be an opposite at some point.Everything has an opposite.
The fact is the HHO will go into and opposite reaction at 66% hydrogen and 33% oxygen,
it will implode.
Arabs you got the money yet.
You will in time.
IronHead
is the "type" determined by the pulse frequency used to produce it?
I get this from Russells periodic chart and from Keely's work - both base molecules and elements on vibrational frequency. I venture to say this relates to the torsion field frequency and this would imply that the electric generating signal and the plate dimensions/mass would have to be tuned.
Going further, ignoring all alarms in my head, there is a sweet impulse fequency for every cell.
Right....we will get to that.
Arabs
ummm pay him after my truck is runnin off of hho...
lol
Quote from: Grumpy on May 01, 2007, 04:47:06 PM
is the "type" determined by the pulse frequency used to produce it?
I get this from Russells periodic chart and from Keely's work - both base molecules and elements on vibrational frequency. I venture to say this relates to the torsion field frequency and this would imply that the electric generating signal and the plate dimensions/mass would have to be tuned.
Going further, ignoring all alarms in my head, there is a sweet impulse fequency for every cell.
That is correct sir .Damn you never stop amazing me with what you understand.
I study Keely's works mostly but a few others come and go. The stuff behind what Meyer's was doing and alot more that Meyers did not seem to grasp. He did not learn it directly from Keely but through a man named Dale Pond. Dale did a bunch of interpretation stuff on Keely's works.
The whole thread is about tuning and learning what you are tuning , as I have stated time and time again ,just not directly until now.
What you said about a feqs for every cell ,how about for everything ? watch this as I never video taped the stuff I did. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5OhZ9wT568
I think this video will wake something up in many of you, including you TPU guys.
.
Would that type be monatomic hydrogen?
when you make hydroxy gas in a series cell with straignt DC,you are getting a mix of 66.6% hydrogen and 33.3% oxygen. Of that hydrogen, approximately 75% is orthohydrogen and approximately 25% is parahydrogen....when you start getting into pulsing with certain frequencies you get monatomic hydrogen? or do the frequenies just aid in the production?
Quote from: IronHead on May 01, 2007, 05:06:16 PM
Quote from: Grumpy on May 01, 2007, 04:47:06 PM
is the "type" determined by the pulse frequency used to produce it?
I get this from Russells periodic chart and from Keely's work - both base molecules and elements on vibrational frequency. I venture to say this relates to the torsion field frequency and this would imply that the electric generating signal and the plate dimensions/mass would have to be tuned.
Going further, ignoring all alarms in my head, there is a sweet impulse fequency for every cell.
That is correct sir .Damn you never stop amazing me with what you understand.
I study Keely's works mostly but a few others come and go. The stuff behind what Meyer's was doing and alot more that Meyers did not seem to grasp. He did not learn it directly from Keely but through a man named Dale Pond. Dale did a bunch of interpretation stuff on Keely's works.
The whole thread is about tuning and learning what you are tuning , as I have stated time and time again ,just not directly until now.
What you said about a feqs for every cell ,how about for everything ? watch this as I never video taped the stuff I did. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5OhZ9wT568
I think this video will wake something up in many of you, including you TPU guys.
.
So now your answering you own questions lol well done hkyle.
With monatomic hydrogen you only need 1/4 the production needed to run your vehicle on hydroxy...para / ortho.
For me that would mean I only need 17.5 l/min production...
Divide that by 4, 4 cylinder
4.38 l/min /cylinder
NICE.
Very obtainable. OK maybe not.
yes Freqs aid and can produce monoatomic H. This is a multi chamber system , we will get into it. This is not an easy tune! It must all be just right to do this. My tuning will not work with you cell . So I can't tell you here are the drawing and specs, and you build and it works. Sorry, Does not happen that way.
Does anyone know why it does not work like this?
This is what its all about to learn just this. It is not easy you will have a time of this. But you can go as far as you like till you have what you need here
Some people have determined that you need 4000 liters per hour to run(not just idle ) a car engine full on a standard HHO type system, what ever that may be.
NO
IronHead
Quote from: IronHead on May 01, 2007, 05:06:16 PM
Quote from: Grumpy on May 01, 2007, 04:47:06 PM
is the "type" determined by the pulse frequency used to produce it?
I get this from Russells periodic chart and from Keely's work - both base molecules and elements on vibrational frequency. I venture to say this relates to the torsion field frequency and this would imply that the electric generating signal and the plate dimensions/mass would have to be tuned.
Going further, ignoring all alarms in my head, there is a sweet impulse fequency for every cell.
That is correct sir .Damn you never stop amazing me with what you understand.
I study Keely's works mostly but a few others come and go. The stuff behind what Meyer's was doing and alot more that Meyers did not seem to grasp. He did not learn it directly from Keely but through a man named Dale Pond. Dale did a bunch of interpretation stuff on Keely's works.
The whole thread is about tuning and learning what you are tuning , as I have stated time and time again ,just not directly until now.
What you said about a feqs for every cell ,how about for everything ? watch this as I never video taped the stuff I did. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5OhZ9wT568
I think this video will wake something up in many of you, including you TPU guys.
.
(woke up the need for me to find my bowl) ;D
Can someone post an AVI of that file?
(Corporate Gestapo firewall is in full effect!!!)
Hmm. Would "implosion" in the cylinder pull open the valves?
What if you mixed the two (Helionon and Hydrogen)? Doesn't exactly cancel out...
(Got to look into this more.)
hmmm seems that if you create an implosion and explosion together you have balance . nothing goes no where in a chamber that is. But then again I have never physically tried it. So it needs to be done. I will get back to you on that one.
Will it suck the valves open. This depend on the valve spring and their opposite force.
How much vacuum are we creating with how much implosive gas . Tune it and she will be happy . more gas bigger springs .if big springs open less gas. Not very scientific is it.
No, but then making it work and mathematical conceptualizing are 2 different things .
ok has anybody charged their water and cell plates yet.
Any of you guys that have ,we want pic and explanation of what you are seeing in a charged cell stack at 12vdc
very tight shot small pic will do as there are many more to come . Lets not eat the bandwidth to badly here guys
water preparation and cell charging
These pictures were taken 1.5hr after. Sorry I was hungry...
increase in surface tention..The more surface tention the bigger the bubbles got.
Bubbles appearing on sides of container...
2 hr later the cell still contained .70 volts.
What do you see?
nice thread HI.
Ok so are you up for a koko come lately dumb questions post that include tungsten questions with regard to hho er..... should i start a new thread?
Thanks hkyle keep up the good work . your voltage tells me you are right where you need to be.Meaning your cell is holding voltage well. Also bubble retention looks good.
kokomoj0 Welcome aboard . Tungsten ?
Quote from: IronHead
b]kokomoj0[/b] Welcome aboard . Tungsten ?
well that and other things yes.-
i will just throw it out atcha so just ignore what is inpertinent k.
yeh as for the tungsten: when i say 4" bubbles come out of your vid i about spilled my coffee all over the keyboard.
Again if you do not want to go there just omit or i can delete this post.
a) was that straight dc or pulsed?
b) do you have the V/I readings for that?
c) i assume the same rules apply, ie: tuning, 150 degrees, pulses, polarization prior to startup ect?
d) was it making parahydrogen or?
e) the reaction looked totally violent and gave me the impression you were getting some really serious production out of it, do you have any idea or a guess maybe about how much? it looked to be way more than all those plates.
f) when using it in a plasma mode for generating hho do you know if it wears like in the fusion mode? i would guess not because it never gets all that hot does it?
so far i am guessing that the tung would be good for creating HUGE amount of hydrogen but then i figure there must be a draw back somewhere that i am not looking at.
last do you know how to turn this annoying kookoo clock thingie off before i go postal LOLOL!!!!
A: is a complex question but it's pulsed
B: I don't know what V/I is
C: Yes
D: ortho
E: with that little bottle , enough to run your lawnmower all day
F: Plasma and "fusion" Cell are the same thing, in electrolisis hho there is no depletion
Drawbacks are getting the world to understand how it works , when the world thinks in a forceful way.
No I don't even know what clock you refer to.
the clock is a browser thing. If your useing firefox or opera. Just shut it off. Look for a clock on your browser and right click it settings turn off sound, Should be in the upper right corner if i remember right. I'll delete this post after a while as not to clutter things up M.
Quote from: IronHead on May 02, 2007, 07:18:12 AM
A: is a complex question but it's pulsed
B: I don't know what V/I is
C: Yes
D: ortho
E: with that little bottle , enough to run your lawnmower all day
F: Plasma and "fusion" Cell are the same thing, in electrolisis hho there is no depletion
Drawbacks are getting the world to understand how it works , when the world thinks in a forceful way.
No I don't even know what clock you refer to.
Yeh man! Thanks!
Ok V/I refers to voltage and current readings to get those results. (tungsten that is)
The clock? Every time i sign on to this site there is a coocoo clock sound that drives me nuts and i havent figured out how to turn it off LOL
It seems the old addage give me a lever and i shall move the world applies here, and these bonds really are not that difficult to break with the proper tools. Strangely enough breaking them seems to be in very low frequencies when i would have guessed it to be terahz+.
a guy could really start to like tungsten i see.
@ I.H.
I'm following so far, I hoped to have been completed with construction last night, but The last two days, I've gotten called out for work at roughly 5 - 5:30am, and ended up working until almost 6pm both days... so (boring blathering here... )
Here's a quickly snapped pic of my quickly assembled Cell, My anode, cathode&neutral plates. I'm just going to true up the neutral + connection plates in the mill, mount the plate holders, wire it... then get my pwr supply & funct. gen setup...
btw, anyone that's maybe unclear on some things, this should give you some clues..
I'd recommend watching from the first episode to the most current:http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=johnaarons (http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=johnaarons)
Probably help if I include the freakin pic... duh...
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gearheadkustoms.com%2FMy_HHO_components.jpg&hash=1964c2acb7d5dcedfc4e7019c36700167c9d45fd)
Good post rapttor and nice job on the cell so far .A little pointer for you
take some 24 or 36 grit sandpaper and scratch those plates up as much as you can vertical to the position in the container.
I agree , I think everyone that can get onto YouTube , check out everything Arrons has done from day one until now.The way he does things is very informative and much more scientific then you will see me do here .Also it will really get you understanding the basics of the norm.
Thank you everyone
Ok ,we did alittle 12 volt charge now put 24 volts to the cell stack . Then 36 volts to the cell ,hell try 48 if you can, only in the clean spring water do not put any additives in this cell.Let each of these voltages run awhile , look at the bubbles study them .
What is the difference? Are there voltage limits ? or maybe the real limit is current and not voltage at all ? We are going to find out about adding some stuff to control current up . you are at bottom right now.
Hi teacher, sorry I've been late to class but.... I'm "on call" this week, and I was working until 12:00am this morning. However when I got home, I prepped half the plates, and glued in the plate holders... just as they setup, I realized they were not lined up... (Note to self, don't do such a thorough job glueing in the future)
I've got ideas to get around my issue... Pictures soon.
@ Ironhead
Have you seen any improvements in efficiency by having uniform very close in size plates? Should I bother sq'ing off the 4 sides? maybe .05 - .08 off each side...
I'm babbling...
???
don't worry about it at this point in time, as long as they don't touch.
This is not a finished accurate cell build.This is a learning tool.
If you use GOOP product as I suggested .
Then just take it apart and pull the GOOP
off it should come off like it was a rubber
band like material.
look at this ratty ol cell stack with Teflon case.The bottom pic is about one second run at 48 volts. This one is caustic .
Also notice the file size on these pics guys ,downsize your pics and compress the jpg or gif
Got ya teach, I'll just finish de-burring the edges, and get them together. With regards to the "grain" (sanding pattern mentioned) if the plates already have a very visible grain, then as long as I have all of them Vert. orientated... all is good? Or do you find a nice cross-hatched pattern yield better performance? ???
-raptor
tried it all and very deep scratches vertical work the best so far,
for me anyway. But feel free to try different surface treatments.
Just make sure you charge those plates the way I have explained on pg 24 in bold
.
There is no tungsten in the cell we are building here ,just 316 Stainless steel.
The cell being built , the specs are on page 14 .
We might led up to such a cell as the NS-T along with some very strange thinking far outside the norm. I don't know, we will see how it goes.
Feel free to experiment with tungsten on your own
If anyone is keeping up with my buddy bornman88. Here is an update.
He has just installed the 18khz Curtis type controller .This is a good day as we have been talking about this for a long time now.
If you are a member please Congratulate him , He has put so much work into this technology.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=bornman88
I hope to see many of you doing similar things in the future.
If you don't do it for the sake of pollution at least do it for
saving on oil and your bank account.
Fixed the link http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=bornman88
Counting bubbles ? lol
Yes I don't see that happening at this level unless you are the "Rainman"
Next is KOH . KOH is caustic guys and needs to be vented Do not breath the stuff.
KOH will not gas like other additives. it will vaporized though.
KOH will also condense back to its original form very quickly and can be feed back to the cell from the bubbler chamber which we'll get into later as far as a electrolyte type cell goes.So this would be used in a closed loop system if we were to use this type of cell as a fuel source . The KOH would never reach the engine in this case.
Here just add very small amounts of KOH or Lye to the cell. About the size of an aspirin pill at a time. Make sure you have an amp meter hooked up. The amps will go up as you do this. We want to see the effect of amps, and how high we can go till we get abit of heat .
Monitor those batteries , there temps , find there discharge rating don't go over that rating or the battery will gas and could expand very fast.Keep an eye on the terminal temps as well. WEAR GOGGLES ALWAYS . if it goes boom we dont want shards or caustics from cell or battery in your eyes.you never know so be safe .
DO NOT USE SALT IN PLACE OF KOH IT WILL GAS TO MAKE CHLORINE GAS
HIGHLY POISONOUS AND WILL STAY AIRBORNE.
Do not put copper or aluminum in this cell, again these thing will gas to poisons.
All bolts , clips and so forth should be stainless that contact the water in this cell.
This is brute force 101
Read it again
What about H202?
Question for ya.
@ironhead (or anyone else wanting to tackle this question).
I added another 9 more plates to the test cell I posted earlier...So there are a total of
28 plates
- nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn +
Now just for testing what i did was add about .5 of a pop bottle lid of lye to the pail of water.
I was pulling 123v at 15.6 amps pulsed @120hz
anyway back to the question.
I notice on the far right of the cell - side there was a massive ;D amount of very small fine bubbles and on the Left side at the + side was a huge amount of big :o bubbles.
Was the one side Parahydrogen and the other side orthohydrogen created by the electromagnetic field?
Here is my youtube page with link to the video of this...poor light but you can still see.
http://www.youtube.com/seriescell
Hydrogen forms small bubbles and oxy forms larger bubbles. its a cohesion thing. And teacher doesn't seem to like it when you jump ahead in class. Wasn't it a split series cell he was working with?
Yes that is right...But in a series cell the N plates create oxygen on one side and hydrogen on the other between the ss plates.
So each cell should have the same output throughout. Not just on one side.
I could see that if there was only 2 plates but not in this case.
the left side of the cell is the - side the right is +
sorry for jumping ahead.
Little bubbles Big Bubbles
I am going to get into this later today, I have to do a few things first, when I get back.
I will be getting into magnetic rotation , gradient and lose.
This occurrence is normal even in a half cell stack . + n -
The full stack below + n - n + that has been dialed in to this specific
condition. you clearly can see little bubble /big bubble happening @ 36vdc.
The more you learn to control your cell with these fields the more you can adjust your gas outcome and there types. This is why I can mimic just about anything you guys run into. I was asked this question in a message.
Hi Ironhead,
Nice to meet you! Thank you for your information on Pg14! I have made one set (2X3X4 electrodes)the same to yours. I connected 2X 12V batteries in series to make up a 24V power supply ( I only have two car batteries). KOH was added as well. when it started, it drew 15amps but only 800ml/min HHO gas was produced. It was far from you guys done. I have connected to a Stan Meyer's plused circuit but no significant difference. What would you suggest me to check it up? Thank you!!
Besides, the electrolyte heated up rapidly. I didn't measure the temperature but it was vey hot. Will it reach a certain degree (ie 180F) and keep unchange? Otherwise, it goes straight boiling and water vapour mixes with HHO.
Ah..... I have tried NaOH and table salt as well. However, the bubbles were smaller and rate of HHO production was lesser than KOH. After using table salt for sometime, the pH of electrolyte went up from 7 to 12. I thought chloride left as chlorine gas and this produced a by-product, OH-.
This is what I have done in these few days and I would like to share with you guys!
Alex
check your chemical equations and reactions when using table salt. I can't wait for IH's reply...
Quote from: d3adp00l on May 06, 2007, 03:35:02 AM
check your chemical equations and reactions when using table salt....
Yes, thank you! I know that
2Cl-(aq) ---> Cl2 (g) + 2e-
Na+ will not change but Cl- will become less and less. In order to balance the over charge, H20 will be ionized as,
2H2O(l) + 4e- ---> H2(aq) + 2OH-(aq)
NaCl will be replaced by NaOH in the electrolyte. In the end, No chlorine gas will be produced but O2 gas instead.
well you hope so.
adding salt to the water does absolutely no good for electrolysis, don't chance it when you have koh and lye laying around...
be careful
can you post a pic of your cell?
Quote from: alexleigh on May 06, 2007, 02:10:09 AM
Hi Ironhead,
Nice to meet you! Thank you for your information on Pg14! I have made one set (2X3X4 electrodes)the same to yours. I connected 2X 12V batteries in series to make up a 24V power supply ( I only have two car batteries). KOH was added as well. when it started, it drew 15amps but only 800ml/min HHO gas was produced. It was far from you guys done. I have connected to a Stan Meyer's plused circuit but no significant difference. What would you suggest me to check it up? Thank you!!
Besides, the electrolyte heated up rapidly. I didn't measure the temperature but it was vey hot. Will it reach a certain degree (ie 180F) and keep unchange? Otherwise, it goes straight boiling and water vapour mixes with HHO.
Ah..... I have tried NaOH and table salt as well. However, the bubbles were smaller and rate of HHO production was lesser than KOH. After using table salt for sometime, the pH of electrolyte went up from 7 to 12. I thought chloride left as chlorine gas and this produced a by-product, OH-.
This is what I have done in these few days and I would like to share with you guys!
Alex
Bubble size.
Has to do with surface tension through the magnetic gradient.
The greater the field the smaller the bubble. The surface tension
is not the same in every cell cavity as the field changes through
the cell stack. If the field is very high you will see the small bubbles through
out the stack and a low field will produce the larger type bubbles . Somewhere
in the middle and you see both. In the cell I have shown the left side has less
resistance then the right side as there is loss at the connection points .So higher fields on the left and lower on the right in the picture on pg 29.
Here is a gradient chart of sorts to show this. This chart will be even more important to understand when we start vibrating this magnetic field causing a resonance in the cell cavities.
What not to doQuote from: alexleigh on May 06, 2007, 02:10:09 AM
Hi Ironhead,
Nice to meet you! Thank you for your information on Pg14! I have made one set (2X3X4 electrodes)the same to yours. I connected 2X 12V batteries in series to make up a 24V power supply ( I only have two car batteries). KOH was added as well. when it started, it drew 15amps but only 800ml/min HHO gas was produced. It was far from you guys done. I have connected to a Stan Meyer's plused circuit but no significant difference. What would you suggest me to check it up? Thank you!!
Besides, the electrolyte heated up rapidly. I didn't measure the temperature but it was vey hot. Will it reach a certain degree (ie 180F) and keep unchange? Otherwise, it goes straight boiling and water vapour mixes with HHO.
Ah..... I have tried NaOH and table salt as well. However, the bubbles were smaller and rate of HHO production was lesser than KOH. After using table salt for sometime, the pH of electrolyte went up from 7 to 12. I thought chloride left as chlorine gas and this produced a by-product, OH-.
This is what I have done in these few days and I would like to share with you guys!
Alex
Ok first off what did I say about using salt. If one of you guys dies or get sick over this , where will that leave the rest of us. Do you think we will continue these endeavors on this forum ? Follow instructions or do it on your own ! I will not be held responsibly for you getting sick because you poisoned yourself nor will anyone else here. Do you understand the massive amount of chlorine gas that you produce using salt will stay air born in your home or lab until you fully vent/ cycle all of the air out of your work/living area?
With that out of the way .
I am now suppose to think you build the cell the way I have layed out here? After you have not followed instruction about salt .
Have you followed instruction on charging the cell?
How did you build the cell , what kind of glue did you use?
Did you use 316 stainless and is the case Acrylic or Teflon or Ploy ?
What is the wire gauge used in your cell ?
Show some pics so we can see whats going on here.
Sorry to be so harsh guys ,but if we were on level 5 or 6 these kinds of mistakes can really hurt you . You not producing much yet . But when you do lets leave the unsafe,
practices at a zero factor shall we ? Or someone here is going to blow them selfs up in the near future or worse.
The lesser the resistance the more voltage can reach the ss plate making a stronger magnetic gradient.
With the stronger field you are aligning the hydrogen atoms towards the negative electrode, and the oxygen towards the positive electrode.
The greater the field the stronger the surface tension.
The weaker the field the weaker the surface tension.
Does the number of plates also define on how strong the field is?
Hmmm when does the toroid and chokes come into play?
Maybe we are not quite there yet...
Finding the balance
The number of plates effects the field.
The more stuff that is in the path of the electric
the more resistance you have. Also the more resistance
the more heat you create as volts dumps to amps.
Amps blow of the plates as heat.
But it is resistance that is maintaining a magnetic field .
There must be a balance. To much of this and not enough
of that will cause heat problems and production problems.
So we have to learn to control everything here to find the balance.
You can control the voltage here and you can raise
the amps with electrolyte.
Can we restrict amps with out using resistance ?
Measure the resistance of the cell and match that with a inductor/choke?
ohms law
E = IR
E = Electric Potential (Voltage) (Volts)
I = Current (Amps)
R = Resistance (Ohms)
Voltage is directly proportional to both current and resistance. If you raise current and/or Resistance, Voltage raises as well.
If you increase the resistance of the cell and hold the current, the voltage will increase.
Thats what I was waiting for.
Quote from: IronHead on May 06, 2007, 01:05:09 PM
What not to do
Quote from: alexleigh on May 06, 2007, 02:10:09 AM
Hi Ironhead,
Nice to meet you! Thank you for your information on Pg14! I have made one set (2X3X4 electrodes)the same to yours. I connected 2X 12V batteries in series to make up a 24V power supply ( I only have two car batteries). KOH was added as well. when it started, it drew 15amps but only 800ml/min HHO gas was produced. It was far from you guys done. I have connected to a Stan Meyer's plused circuit but no significant difference. What would you suggest me to check it up? Thank you!!
Besides, the electrolyte heated up rapidly. I didn't measure the temperature but it was vey hot. Will it reach a certain degree (ie 180F) and keep unchange? Otherwise, it goes straight boiling and water vapour mixes with HHO.
Ah..... I have tried NaOH and table salt as well. However, the bubbles were smaller and rate of HHO production was lesser than KOH. After using table salt for sometime, the pH of electrolyte went up from 7 to 12. I thought chloride left as chlorine gas and this produced a by-product, OH-.
This is what I have done in these few days and I would like to share with you guys!
Alex
Ok first off what did I say about using salt. If one of you guys dies or get sick over this , where will that leave the rest of us. Do you think we will continue these endeavors on this forum ? Follow instructions or do it on your own ! I will not be held responsibly for you getting sick because you poisoned yourself nor will anyone else here. Do you understand the massive amount of chlorine gas that you produce using salt will stay air born in your home or lab until you fully vent/ cycle all of the air out of your work/living area?
With that out of the way .
I am now suppose to think you build the cell the way I have layed out here? After you have not followed instruction about salt .
Have you followed instruction on charging the cell?
How did you build the cell , what kind of glue did you use?
Did you use 316 stainless and is the case Acrylic or Teflon or Ploy ?
What is the wire gauge used in your cell ?
Show some pics so we can see whats going on here.
Sorry to be so harsh guys ,but if we were on level 5 or 6 these kinds of mistakes can really hurt you . You not producing much yet . But when you do lets leave the unsafe,
practices at a zero factor shall we ? Or someone here is going to blow them selfs up in the near future or worse.
Thank you! Ironhead.
I am testing H2O electrolysis for few months only and I need to learn more from your hardwork. Thank you for your suggestion and safe reminder. I will practise it in the safe way and try to fit all the requirements. Anyway, I am willing to accept opinions. Please don't mind my participation in your discussion even I am not knowlegable enough. I would like to give more information for your analysis in the following.
I used a pair of scissors to cut the 316 SS plates in 2"X2" for neutral and 2"X3" for postive and negative. There were 17 plates +nnnnnnn-nnnnnnn+. The plates separation was 0.25". I used acrylic plates to cover the vertical surfaces of the cell. I used acrylic plates glue ( not marine verion) that the acrylic plates selling shop gave me. 18 awg wire was used. It is about 1mm in diameter. Moreover, I used table salt and NaOH in the begining (few months ago). Now, I only used KOH to increase the conductivity.
I am sorry I don't have a digital camera and I will borrow one for the coming experiments. I can carry out my experiment in a chemical fume hood. It is better to avoid hydrogen explosion or toxic gas. Thanks!
Hey Teach... <raising hand> I've caught up to the group, ran my cell through the breakin. Used Spring water with a mere pinch of NaOH, Cell is constructed from Clear Acrylic, diced up wire ties as spacers, Dble'd up, .192 spacing between plates.
Current arrangement is: +nnnnnnnn-nnnnnnnn+
Also, I started at 24vdc since I've got a few more plates I wanted to make sure I had the minimums covered.
Here's the Cell....
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gearheadkustoms.com%2Fcharging_1.jpg&hash=df193c1a7c763efdf0948fa662822aab73d07460)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gearheadkustoms.com%2Fcharging_2.jpg&hash=14e1f75113ec8fe67da5b2391c1a77dc6bd9665b)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gearheadkustoms.com%2Fcharging_3.jpg&hash=b32052fac9274ef9a034677cf98d7b4ea94502eb)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gearheadkustoms.com%2Fside_view_charging.jpg&hash=450277035945fa1cf9741497a31e259329624c24)
-Raptor
IH, i noticed that you went through a plate polarization process earlier. Is that trying to achieve something similar to the joe cell and turn it into a big capacitor with a lot of surface tension with the idea of creating what they call a breeder cell?, or is this a method to get it started easier and insure each cell is working together?
alexleigh
Good job , Your description gives me a good visual .
Seems like you have the thing built well. Now have you
gone through the water charging process and the
plate pre-charging process ?
rapttor
Great looking cell ,see if you can get those verts
covered up. We want to try an seal in the voltage
on those plates at there sides. Good work
kokomoj0
Pre-charging the plates the way I do is similar to the Joe Cell.
We are setting up a gradient for the electromagnetic field charge.
All these things: water charging, pre- charging plates , sealing in the vertical sides of the cell must be done to achieve good production in the long run.
Memo: Anyone here that does not have a camera please try to draw up what you cell looks like or explain in detail .
Keep up the good work guys
IronHead
Seal em' up on the sides, got cha.. that'll be done when I get home tonight...
Look for the update later...
-art
Fairies wear boot and ya gotta believe me
Oh and dont use glue on the plates . Go back and study the drawings on pg 14 . you will see the side panels are slotted . A Dremal works well for this if you have one.
Also gaskets will not work ether as the plate will still spew voltage off the edges of the plates that are exposed to the water.
Looking good keep going we will get there.
Never talking just keeps walking spreading his magic
now gettin into black sabbath.................
Quote from: IronHead on May 07, 2007, 07:54:28 PM
alexleigh
Good job , Your description gives me a good visual .
Seems like you have the thing built well. Now have you
gone through the water charging process and the
plate pre-charging process ?
Ironhead,
I didn't touch the cell becoz I have been overtiming till 10pm this week. However, I re-read what you posted on p24 regarding water and plates charging. I am practising the procedures in my mind all the time. It is so interesting and make me excited. I will squeeze sometime to do this on Saturday.
I would like to ask on charging. After plate precharging, 20 minutes is needed for water charging, don't get the temperature above 150F, why?
After charging at 12V, I would like to repeat charging at 24V and 36V. Do I need to repeat all the procedures like plate charging or just switch to 24V and 36V for a while ?
After charging process, should I add KOH to the charged water or just let it run on spring water alone?
Sorry for many questions!
Cheers,
Alex
alexleigh
150 is just my marker to not go above. The acrylic and the glues should not be stressed to beyond 150. Also there is an effect in the plates beyond 150 we don't want yet.
Pre-charging of plates is only done once.
water charge, charge the water at 12 volts till you see it start to get thicker , heavier looking. Let it cool between charges . Use the same water at 24 then 36.
KOH yes start adding as I have explained after you do these other processes.
Now go back and read the processes over on pg 24 and on, until you know it by heart.
"No glue on the plates"? My grooves in the plastic are twice the width of the 20 ga 316 plates. I had planned to put a narrow fillet of marine silicone (3m brand, could not find "GOOP" marine) where the plate meets plastic,only on one side, mebbe 1/8" overlap into reaction area. If I filled the slot then slid in the plate, I'd have a hard time positioning it against the edge of the groove, to keep gaps uniform. Mount molehill, to be sure, but I want to do it right.
Thanks for the insight, and stay away from salt, y'all. Chlorine be somethin' you don't wanna mess with. I used to hook up ton tanks of the gas.
Keith
keithturtle
Silicon will break down in the cell . The cell will fall apart
Things NOT to put in a Cell
Copper Epoxy Vynalester
Steel Silicon Cyclic plastic
Metal Oxides Latex ABS resin
Acetate Lexan Baking Soda
Zinc Natural rubber Salt
Aluminum Styrene Sulfuric Acid
Tin Polyester Hydrochloric Acid
Lead Polycarbonate Muradic Acid
Iron
Bronze
Silver
Quote from: IronHead on May 08, 2007, 06:57:03 AM
keithturtle
Silicon will break down in the cell . The cell will fall apart
Things NOT to put in a Cell
CopperEpoxy Vynalester
Steel Silicon Cyclic plastic
Metal Oxides Latex ABS resin
Acetate Lexan Baking Soda
Zinc Natural rubber Salt
Aluminum Styrene Sulfuric Acid
Tin Polyester Hydrochloric Acid
Lead Polycarbonate Muradic Acid
Iron
Bronze
I'll vouch, Epoxy gave out at the 36Hr mark of having water in the cell. I got a call yesterday... from the wife..."Your experiment is leaking owal ovah the fluwah"
And I'm thinking.... do I tell her that there's alittle bit of lye in that water..... since it's spilling on the new hardwood floor... (Eh, hun... Wipe up what you can...).
So Looks like I'll be building another housing....
-rapttor
Well they call me the hunter, that's my name.
They call me the hunter, that's how I got my fame.
Ok so acrylic for the enclosure is ok.
How about silicone sealer? i used some with the idea it can be taken back off. It does not hold the structure together but used as positioning and support. Will that interfere in anyway with the process? i used clear "silicone" from the tube. ge product.
Also the glue i used to glu the box together has the following agents;
methyl ethyl ketone
methylene cloride
methyl acetate
methyl methacrylate monomer
acrylic resin
from the ips corporation called weldon #16 clear medium bodied solvent cement for joining acrylic.
i chose that because it also will bond pvc to the acrylic.
i also have some pvc for fittings that i have not installed yet
Quote from: IronHead on May 07, 2007, 07:54:28 PM
All these things: water charging, pre- charging plates , sealing in the vertical sides of the cell must be done to achieve good production in the long run.
IronHead
so we want to seal in the sides but leave the bottom and top open to get good water flow. i imagine false sides would work well leaving a gap between the sides and the inner enclosure wall such that we get both sealed sides and good circulation around the sides as well.
another thing i am trying to figure out is; when we get to the point of trying this on something like an engine for instance, can this sytem best be used as a vacuum type like the joe cell or a positive pressure like the meyers system, maybe either? i would like to put something together that i can go beyond the bench with right away and with the number of plates you are using i think it is big enough to run a gas engine when it is completed?
Another thing i wanted to ask; can silver be used to easily bond the stainless?
So i am trying to account for as much as possible in the design of th einitial experiment so i can go from bench to application to do further testing and avoid the need to rebuild it all for future phases of the experiment.
Man, I just need to get my mill cnc retro fit up and working, I could turn out these parts with nice consistency...
Good post, thanks for the info KoKoMoj0
-rapttor
How's about EPDM or Urethane sealants - roof type - 30 year guarantee. (some are up to 50 years)
Don't think these will peel off that easy. Goop is cheap and works.
Just need an hour of free time...almost there.
Hey all,
Here's a photo of my two new cells, one is a 3x3/3x2 and other is a 6x2/6x1 both having +8n-8n+ config.
You can see the mesh pattern on the titanium that may help in moving water around.
I'll be trying this hopefully tonight and then start working on the chamber when time permits.
kokomoj0
no silicon
Silver is also oxygen reactive , do not use.
The weld on #16 might be ok , let us know?
Grumpy
I have not tried EPDM or Urethane.
I have a lot of both and will tried them out as soon as I can.
If anyone else tries these let us know the outcome?
wattsup
The cells look great! good luck on this very strange material you are using.
Keep use all posted
They come from the land of ice and snow
I been pretty busy with the Pinz. but its all painted.
Should have alittle more time soon.
Here are a few pics to show the project.
For a containment vessel I used a Cantex 6x6x6 pvc junction box similar to this one
http://www.homeandbeyond.com/prod-0103789.html
and added a thick pvc lip around the top. Drilled for a dozen more bolts and fitted a 1/2 in polycarbonate cover.
Plastics compatability: Pvc can handle KOH, but polycarbonate can't. Polycarbonate can handle NaOH, but pvc can't. (I hope I don't have that backwards)
I've found some charts
http://www.millerplastics.net/chemical_resistance_chart.html
that say pVC can handle dilute solutions of either lye (NaOH) or potash (KOH) solutions, so mebbe with mild concentrations it's not too important.
I use TIVAR and acrylic for caustic applications.
Pics to follow when I get a camera.
Keith
Hey Guys,
First off let me say awesome work. The design and the brains that have gone behind this work is just amazing. Only imagine how much work will get covered in the following months. IronHead, Awesome design.. The one question that I have is this. The ideal voltage to get Hydrogen is 1.24v per cell. Your cell has a total of 18 cells which as you said before takes your 36 volts and splits it to 2 volts per cell. Excuse me if I am not thinking write, god knows that happens a lot, but wouldn't it be better to have 28 cells in the setup, that way each cell has a voltage that is closest to 1.24 volts and you get the most work out of the given current? Just seems that it would be better to use the voltage to create work than to let it go off in heat. As I said, I might be wrong and the heat may be needed, but was just wondering.
Quote from: Dravenn22 on May 10, 2007, 11:38:22 AM
Hey Guys,
First off let me say awesome work. The design and the brains that have gone behind this work is just amazing. Only imagine how much work will get covered in the following months. IronHead, Awesome design.. The one question that I have is this. The ideal voltage to get Hydrogen is 1.24v per cell. Your cell has a total of 18 cells which as you said before takes your 36 volts and splits it to 2 volts per cell. Excuse me if I am not thinking write, god knows that happens a lot, but wouldn't it be better to have 28 cells in the setup, that way each cell has a voltage that is closest to 1.24 volts and you get the most work out of the given current? Just seems that it would be better to use the voltage to create work than to let it go off in heat. As I said, I might be wrong and the heat may be needed, but was just wondering.
i wasnt going to say anything just yet but i am making mine that way. i have 5 plates per cell thinking < 12 volts to power it up and then run them in parrallel with car in mind. Now that you mention it that same thought went through my head because if this can generate anough to run my car that is stage 2!!!
i was also thinking that way we get several variations to play with for testing :)
I betcha there is a very good reason for this....keep posted it will show up sooner or later.
Be patient.
Hey Ironhead
Nice weelz.
Quote from: kokomoj0 on May 10, 2007, 11:34:37 PM
Quote from: Dravenn22 on May 10, 2007, 11:38:22 AM
Hey Guys,
First off let me say awesome work. The design and the brains that have gone behind this work is just amazing. Only imagine how much work will get covered in the following months. IronHead, Awesome design.. The one question that I have is this. The ideal voltage to get Hydrogen is 1.24v per cell. Your cell has a total of 18 cells which as you said before takes your 36 volts and splits it to 2 volts per cell. Excuse me if I am not thinking write, god knows that happens a lot, but wouldn't it be better to have 28 cells in the setup, that way each cell has a voltage that is closest to 1.24 volts and you get the most work out of the given current? Just seems that it would be better to use the voltage to create work than to let it go off in heat. As I said, I might be wrong and the heat may be needed, but was just wondering.
i wasnt going to say anything just yet but i am making mine that way. i have 5 plates per cell thinking < 12 volts to power it up and then run them in parrallel with car in mind. Now that you mention it that same thought went through my head because if this can generate anough to run my car that is stage 2!!!
i was also thinking that way we get several variations to play with for testing :)
Coming soon. Frequency ,Harmonics , Field structure, Current and voltage .
Hey Grumpy:
About that urethane sealer idea.... the stuff 3-m sells to hold yer windshield in yer ride, hard setting urethane, might be an answer to the side seals of these cells. Gotta buy the primer, but just clamp yer plates together with the appropriate spacers (to be pulled out after it sets) spread out a patch 3/8" thick, and set it in edgewise. Set a non-conducting spacer in the glue so it don't get too thin at the edge. I'll try this next week and post pics and cook test results.
Keith
Well, I received my plates last week but havent had a chance to mess with them. My wife had our first baby girl last Monday. She was 7.3lbs. Everything is going great. We named her Maggie Grace.
I'll be keeping track of you guys so keep pressing forward and I will play catch up as soon as I can.
Congratulations MarkEngr!
She is a cutie :)
Congratulations.. welcome to the club!
Mark, Maybe I'm being too critical but You and the wife just had your "First baby Girl"... so you intend on having just girls? (just kidding, as a dad of a 5yr old daughter & 6yr old Son)Girls are alot tougher than boys in my op.(you can't figure out what they want when they're 6months old either)
Good luck & best wishes, take the naps when you can... trust me... :)
-rapttor
Congrats...my daughter just turned 4 and my son just turned 1...Thats timing for ya...
I still don't sleep. :'(
Best wishes...to you and your family.
LMAO!
It sounds like we've been coming at this alternative energy thing all wrong...
Maybe we all should put our kids in a giant hampster wheel to extract energy.
Once the kids are drained of their "excess" energy, its nap time for everyone.
Open source kid power...
Its just crazy enough to work!
I swear they run off of ZPE lol kids reach max entropy and then nap time.
Quote from: hkyle on May 14, 2007, 03:11:05 PM
Congrats...my daughter just turned 4 and my son just turned 1...Thats timing for ya...
I still don't sleep. :'(
Best wishes...to you and your family.
You must build one of tesla device called tesla baby cry remover!
LMAO!
It sounds like we've been coming at this alternative energy thing all wrong...
Maybe we all should put our kids in a giant hampster wheel to extract energy.
Once the kids are drained of their "excess" energy, its nap time for everyone.
Open source kid power...
Its just crazy enough to work!
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on May 14, 2007, 07:08:01 PM
LMAO!
It sounds like we've been coming at this alternative energy thing all wrong...
Maybe we all should put our kids in a giant hampster wheel to extract energy.
Once the kids are drained of their "excess" energy, its nap time for everyone.
Open source kid power...
Its just crazy enough to work!
yeh a 50cent candy bar and a sip of mountain dew and they will go all day!! LOL
Anyone know what happened to IH?
Mebbe some arab took 'im serious when he said "Y'all got my money yet?"
Here's my containment tub and a brute force built to IH's specs:
(//)
Keith
Keith, Nice looking cell man... I like it. I was going to do the exact same thing to mount the plates, but i ran out of clear acrylic.. Did you slot it, then silicone or Goop the edges? The plastic I have that I could have used wasn't as hard as the acrylic so I couldn't use it. I ended up just getting my plates together again last night with pvc sides pressed on with Butyl rubber on the edges of the plates sealing them. I had to redo things due to my original acrylic container popping an end seam(don't use expoxy on acrylic... it doesn't like to hold).
-art
p.s. IronHead brother... where r thou? He must have gotten something working the way he wanted since he's been mia now for what a week?
Slots were sawed into 1/4 " acrylic 3/32 deep with a 40 tooth carbide tipped 7 1/4 circular saw blade on the shopsmith turning 1900 rpm. Moved the fence a 1/4 inch every time. I sawed up several pieces, some of polycarbonate to be used with the pulse generator only cuz PC hates hydroxide.
Used the goop marine, but had to spring for a tube of household goop to get that thar pointy-nose screw-on thingy to get the glue down into the groove. I didn't horse around with putting any on the plate edge; jes jam it together in a jig to keep it all squared up, then weight it down whilst it dries. see pic.
(//)
Remember, I build doubles of everything, setting one up for conventional electrolysis and the other for pulse resonance.
That way I can compare possums to possums.
Keith
Link to charging instructions:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2057.msg30208.html#msg30208
My plates are uneven as Hell (cut with snips).
What really matters?
Electrical insulation at edges?
Scew it - GOOPin' it up.
Thought I'd let the guys actively working on this cell maybe wondering, where oh where the "teacher" has gone. I got an update from him tonight and he'll be posting the next steps to take shortly. He's been a busy man... working on several projects at a time, on some of his other "science experiments" and making some good progress. IronHead will be by within the next couple of days to update us.
Grumpy... thanks, you made me feel better about my pathetic cell construction, it's ironic that... even though I have a complete machine shop at my disposal...(over my garage) how a project can come out looking like a class assignment put together by the "special" kids that ride to school wearing helmets in the morning.... ;D
-art
Well, to be honest 'bout it, hog-jobbin' the thing is better than not doin' it at all. If, however, y'all want someone else to replicate yer stuff, y'all might had oughta at least provide details on precisely how you hacked the thing together. All those years fixing high-dollar cars taught me that maxim I saw posted elsewhere on this site- if y'all ain't got the time to do it right the first time, ya best be findin' time to do it over. Thankfully I work for the govt now, and it don't cut into my commission like it used to <grin>.
Keith
Quote from: rapttor on May 21, 2007, 11:33:24 PM
Grumpy... thanks, you made me feel better about my pathetic cell construction, it's ironic that... even though I have a complete machine shop at my disposal...(over my garage) how a project can come out looking like a class assignment put together by the "special" kids that ride to school wearing helmets in the morning.... ;D
-art
Too funny I'm still laughing about that..how true how true.
What happened to ya'lls teach? I figured he'd be learnin ya'll sumtin new 'bout now.
Quote from: d3adp00l on May 22, 2007, 09:26:19 PM
What happened to ya'lls teach? I figured he'd be learnin ya'll sumtin new 'bout now.
Some of us I think got part way through various degrees of building & stopped, scrapped & redesigned... others waiting for the glue to dry, myself... I had to redo my container after I got a call from the little woman"your EXPERIMENT is leaking all over MY hardwood floors" Plus I keep finding more intriging ideas each time I start in on building a control / pulse circuit.
Side note.... if you are using pvc cement long enough anyone else found that you seem to forget what it was you were originally doing to begin with? ;D
I'll post some pics tonight on my progress... any others care to share?
-rapttor
I have question for you guys, I would like to make a cell, but before I am trying to figure out if its possible to buy a empty car battery case?
That would be a good container, very strong, already have battery pole so only few hole to do on it, but I was not able to find any on internet, maybe I am looking for the wrong item name or something
well you could always try..
Cutting off the top of an old DEAD battery would be a good place to start...BUT each of the 6 sections of cells have leveling holes for the electrolyte. This would not make a good cell based off of the amount of current leakage from on series cell stack to the other.
Quote from: TheOne on May 24, 2007, 03:07:26 PM
I have question for you guys, I would like to make a cell, but before I am trying to figure out if its possible to buy a empty car battery case?
That would be a good container, very strong, already have battery pole so only few hole to do on it, but I was not able to find any on internet, maybe I am looking for the wrong item name or something
ok thanks, i will try to find another container!
How many volts was your tests at...You did 12v did you do increments of 12v after running the cell for a while...So next do a 24v test run that for a while next 36v, 48v...Step it up. Run each test for half hour or so.
You should now notice something about your cell, well there should be a couple of things...THIS IS STILL BEFORE YOU ADD ANY CHEMICALS...
What is it?
Quote from: mramos on May 25, 2007, 06:29:03 PM
Well I built mine. Temp at 82F in the garage, no heat, very little power (current) pulled. Used RO water. I have a +NNNN-NNNN+.
I charged the plates..
Any ideas other than a chemical added to it? I do see some bubbles from one side of the negative plate, and a match will not light them..
Waiting for next steps. Or back to the 3 plate model I have that will crack your ear drums.
And yes I did the charging, water 1/4" from top on N plates, pos on, neg probe touch each N until you tough negative plate (touch the negative as well). Then other side.
I will assume this is a baby step and set it aside for now. And check in later.
Also, I did two of them, one I use cheap bottled water. If I use my well water it will work (salt from the softener) and make a nasty brown water, been there too many times.
Awaiting Ironhead I guess.
Good...increased surface tention...There should be another very important thing to notice about your cell...When you charge the water/plates what should happen?
Quote from: mramos on May 25, 2007, 10:36:10 PM
I did 12, 24, 36, and 48 with a DC power supply.
And I did one with batteries to 36VDC (3 batts; 12 24 36). I can get more batteries.
Water looked thick and small bubbles on the sides of cell on RO with battery.
But the water that had stuff in it (well water and cheap bottles water) turned yellow and brown. So I started over.
RO did nothing, but that is what I will use tomorrow. I know what to add to make it produce what I would trust in my car motor. But I was hoping not to add anything.
Try Fiji bottled water. Best tasting water on the planet, so get a bottle for yourself too.
Fresh stream water should be good too - per IronHead - got a mountain behind me and a stream is a few miles from me - comes from melting snow - freakin cold water.
@mramos;
If the gas is run straight from the cell to a water-filled bubbler as a flashback/ interlock, y'all might be able to rinse out the nasties before they make it to the engine's air supply. Building one of those too.
Keith
@mramos, sweet jesus... please tell me that you didn't drill all those holes in your plates. I was going to do that, but after making a bottom air plate for my pellet stove over the winter for the burn pot... I can't imagine even if you stacked them, had to be a tedious undertaking.
Just by chance has anyone tried a SS screen for a plate? I did it with just your typical 2 electrodes, and there seemed to be a noticable increase in gas production from more surface area.
ok... I have a Get outa jail free card today(wife & kiddies) went to MIL's I'm going to make some progress on this thing....
btw, has anyone tried dehumidifier water in their tests? I've been saving some, I have about 15 gallons.
-rapttor
Here's my 2nd revision of the cell, yes that's an arcylic container I stole from the wife, it's nice & has a silicone seal on top.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gearheadkustoms.com%2Fhhocellrev21.jpg&hash=9841ff47e7ac83050f94af8bb5e7a65572a2df67)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gearheadkustoms.com%2Fhhocellrev22.jpg&hash=797c6ffa980d888fc8bdcde3e4ec84eec4265fe9)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gearheadkustoms.com%2Fhhocellrev23.jpg&hash=ce41f0e0b0ff766a7e7cdb063f4707d3f3b8b153)
After charging the water your cell should hold a charge. My cell held almost 2 volts for 24 hours. of course it drops but it should drop slowly...Thats when you know your cell is ready.
Each space between each plate should also be completely sealed from the rest. Right now all your current and voltage is going through all those holes to the positive plate...You have to make the electrons go from plate to plate. or You will get very poor results.
We will all get there ;)
Quote from: mramos on May 26, 2007, 06:57:45 AM
Back to spring water now.
All did the same thing. .1-.2AMP draw, water over time turned a little yellow, water looking like clear plastic at a point.
What am I supposed to see?
@Raptor
Nice test cell.
So I started the process, with spring water... (note to self, you are suffering from CRS... didn't we use spring h20 before and what happened? turned into a waste water sewage plant...) I grew lots of really cool Brown stuff though (ss reaction to the minerals my guess). Didn't really show until I got to the 2nd 1/2 hr @24v. Well, off I go to get me some distilled aqua.
thanks HKyle... I thought it looked like a toy made on romper room... but the pic's do make it look better... huh, go figure ???
-rapttor
Quote from: mramos on May 26, 2007, 04:02:43 PM
Hkyle:
I did not know the plates had to be sealed. Crap.. That puts me back to square one. But my other cell kick butt and it is like this one with no neutral plate.
So I need solid plate and the water in the cells do to not touch the water of the other cells? Where did you see that. I missed it.
EDIT/FYI:
I have 2.3 volts after I kill power, drops .01volts every couple seconds, until 1.8 then drops slower, about 10 minutes in was at 1.64 volts and I just left. Will go back in 15-30 and see what I have. So it is charged.. Just no major gas out.
EDIT AGAIN: 25+ minutes later, 1.26volts on the cell and long delay to drop to 1.25.
So I have a cap. Need to shoot some AC at that thing, not DC. :)
No you didn't miss it, it just hasen't been posted. well it has but before pg 14..I posted it. lol
anyway if ya want you could probably keep going on with your cell but keep in mind your production will be quite low. When you have a chance or find material for the plates change them out and seal the cell.
I'm not sure on where ironhead will go with surface area of ss plates. Obviously with his nst cell surface area really dosen't matter.
Ask ironhead... He will have a better idea.
Anyway is it time for some k0h / NaOH in your cell? Your amps and production will jump up. Don't add too much just a little take readings of current / voltage. If need be re-read ironheads posts.
Then we should be caught up for the next chapter.
Thats interesting...what do you plan on using?
Ya i know where your at with the car for work thing....I work for a school division and I need my truck to drive from school to school so ya don't really want to muck things up...lol
Better gas mileage won't help if ya can't get to work.
Raptor said ironhead should be back in a few...not sure how long. Patience i guess.
Quote from: mramos on May 26, 2007, 09:43:01 PM
Hkyle:
I know what to add to run the amps up and make the gas. And it is not that nasty stuff. I plan to feed it in the car I use for work to make my living. I would not take that chance. It might eat the metal up even with some gas still running the system. I am not worried about h2o in the system as that is normal for cars that use petrol.
I will stay with this one for another week or so. But I cut 1/2 of my good cell up to make this one and it shows nothing close so far. But it looks like I have a nice cap right now it still hours later has .8 volts (maybe a solar panel and LED). I hooked the "new" cell back up and very very little gas.
I hope Ironhead will get this thing moving soon.
I will order more plates so I can redo the old unit that works well and keep checking in..
And either way, my old unit would not run the mower, it would fire, idle rough for a bit, never made it to run..
Well I tried my titanium +8n-8n+ cell with 12 and 24 volts and no go, maybe just a fizzle on the neg plate when I added a pinch of salt. I know but the room was well ventilated. 16 neutral plates may be a bit too much. My titanium is meshed, not solid plate. I will try this at +2n-2n+ and see what happens.
I too am wondering about the minimum water characteristics and also if there is anything else we have to add to the water.
Seems like your build is going well.
Sorry guys , I have sustained some injuries while experimenting on the injector stuff.
My hands and arms are wrapped up . Very hard to type.
I will be checking in the best I can .
You will notice on pg 14 there are slots in the side panels of the cell , this is to seal the plates off from voltage leaks side to side.
Also the pic of the generator is an RF generator not a pulse gen.
As far a using KOH in an engine, it will be condensed in the bubbler and be returned to the cell or holding tank. The KOH will not go into the engine. This is using a circulatory water bubble system , cool the KOH and it is still KOH. Most all other additives will gas and feed into the engine and many are very dangerous as they go through this transmutation process .KOH does not gas or transmute to new materials .
My pain is 12 broken bones in my hands and arms . This was a pretty bad deal and very unexpected.
In the pic the setting is 1000x . These are MHz I am dealing in.And GHz on the funnel , but we will get into that.
But thanks for the reply
I'm not young. I had an explosion box come apart very quickly lets say. I was standing infront of the box.
This cell should be open on top and on bottom to start out and sealed on the sides.This is clear on pg 14 and the drawing. " top and bottom to be left open"
PG 36 I also edited my post in green about KOH
This is still HHO 101 many of you have just completed your cell or are rebuilding ,so its all good.
Sorry to hear about the blast. Been there, twice, fellow phoenix.
You're in my prayers.
Built the second cell, just like the first, only with PC, no OH for this one.
My initial testing was done in distilled water; misunderstood that part. Still, it received a small charge. Testing with spring water tomorrow.
Note on spring water- I have access to a natural spring with very little iron, in addition to several different well sources with differing levels of iron before softening. I'll run some aeration tests to try and precipitate out the iron, possibly a small charge plate as well. Bought a case of widemouth mason jars to put fittings in the lids... it promises to be an interesting week ahead (only at work two days <grin>)
Keith
About KOH- use it if ya can... not as corrosive as sodium compounds.
Buy it here
http://www.chemistrystore.com/potassium_hydroxide.htm
if y'all cain't find it local... I can get 100 lbs for $100 US, but I'd have serious reservations about trying to ship it out to anyone (don't know the rules).
And it eats epoxy fer lunch.
Keith
@ I-H, Hey Bro. Thanks for takeing 0ne for the team. Now All of us should take a minute and see the dangers. As most of the stuff in (HV-HH0). Things can get ugly real quick. Be safe All. realy. Moab,
@mramos;
What mix- acid or base?
I guess I was referring to, if ya wanna add an ionizer, don't use NaOH, NaHCO3,
Na nuthin...
Keith
If you guys don't do this by the number you will not understand this in the end there are resigns for all that I have drawn out.
As for me, I'm glad to follow the leader. It's true I'll never live long enough to make all the mistakes myself; might as well learn from others.
I had epoxy let go on one unit and all the KOH was contained in the catch pan... big aluminum catch pan in the basement, generating copious amounts of H2. It's most fortunate the house didn't blow by the time the propane detector went off near the floor.
A lesson like that was the genesis for my fume hood I do all my testing in now.
Watch and learn.
I am sorry to hear that Ironhead was injuried. I hope you will get well soon and come back to further giving our HHO 101, 102..... My fingers were hurt by closing the door of my jeep two weeks ago. They were swelling like little bananas. I am better now and using six fingers from two hands to type.
I would like to upload a picture to show what I did few weeks ago. I followed the charging method on PG 14 and swith to 24V ( I don't have 3 batteries in series). I have added KOH into water. The current drawing was 3amp. I kept this running for two hours. The temperature stablized at 166-169F. The circuit was disconnected and voltage was checked. It was 1.78V. After two hours, it was 0.92V. Was that Okay?
I have bought one more battery ( 12V-12V-12V= 36V) but my wife doesn't allow me to work on it now. I need few more weeks to recover.
Edit complete
alexleigh
Very well done. This is a excellent replication of the design I have laid out.
Your voltage is good right now ,and your attention to whats going on is also very good.
B because your wire gauge needs to be 8g high count multistrand. You have very high resistance through those tiny jumper leads
mramos
I just looked at your cell and the holes must go . Looking forward to your next build. The production you got after the cell was shut down is very good. This is what I am talking about when it comes to observing your cell.
BTW this is "a lot of power" type of cell . This is brute force HHO
We will use sine , saw waves, your AC understanding and we will also use
Radio waves , sound. We might even build our own high freq speaker/transmitter if
this goes that far ,or is the cell itself a transducer. Also the possibility of shaped magnetic fields using magnetic coils . Then we will combined all that is learned and do as you will.
keithturtle
Great looking setup and nice box idea
rapttor
Slot the side panels so that the plates slide into the housing . We want the side voltage sealed. Leave top and bottom open for now.
............................................H20........................................................
RO water is dead and will not take a charge like spring or rain water will without additives .Even then the charge is some how just not the same.
"the two hydrogen atoms in water contain protons whose magnetic moments can be parallel or antiparallel, giving rise to ortho- and para-water"
What is the difference between H2O18 and HDO16.
Ah, and you thought you knew what water was.
Now go and learn about water. Here is a good start
Also take note on Structure Breaking Ions & Structure Making Ions
http://www.chem1.com/acad/sci/aboutwater.html
http://www.aquatechnology.net/hexagonalwater.html
http://www.hexawater.com/Science%20Behind1.html
http://www.aquatechnology.net/VITALIZER_PLUS.html
WATER IS YOUR FUEL LEARN IT!
Water does not only fuel you body but can also fuel your home and your transportation. Your whole life and life style can be supported by water.
Everyone here seems to think they are ready to start pumping waves into the cell . Wrong! . You could but then you would be like the rest of the world producing hundreds of liters with high current instead of thousands.
IronHead
Edit complete
Holly shit...wake up goto work read a little and find out the bad news. Good god everyone please be careful.
Hope everything is ok with you...Take time heal up.
Ummmm
Should I be expecting a shock wave soon..........other side of the world....
H2O18
Isn't that a water molecule stored in fresh fruit? I guess the purest of the purest
HDO16
sorry no ideal
Thanks hkyle
And thanks for keeping things going to you and everyone here.
You wont feel my wave lol . But you might feel this guys (John Kanzius) as he just has no idea where he is and what he might stumble on again. I really need to talk with this guy as I have already found the things he is about to . With the amount of water he is using I fear that he might just hit the critical freq and go boom in a very big way.Meaning all of the hydrogen stored in the water can go critical simultaneously .This guy has no shielding at all. This level of HHO production is self firing. If anyone knows a way to contact him please let me know. Or bring him here And I will explain the reaction that is happening and what is and is not safe.
I must speak with him before he starts the next levels of opposing waves.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2424.msg32717.html#msg32717
Also I did not explain what this image or equipment is.
This is an RF generator showing 42mhz. At about 12mhz we start bringing water into rarefaction .
No one should be messing with this until they fully understand water and hydrogen and there reaction on an atomic level. Only then will you understand the safety required . I was hit by a 1 inch thick Lexan shield that was bolted to a blow box , 36 x 5/16s bolts. If the shield was not there I would be dead right now.
Ebay 316 L stainless cheap and the best to use or next to the best of Nitronic Stainless . The "L" stands for low carbon
@IronHead
Speedy recovery. That was a close call, that we all better heed.
I think I am going to put aside my titanium unit and build a 316L unit.
My titanium is meshed so there is no possibility of the neutral plates cascading from one to the other. So it will tak eme a little time to get ready but don't wait for me, keep going and I'll catch up. I was using this for electro-coagulation driving it with 0-5 volts sweep and the object was to simply oxydize minerals, which it does extremely well. But to start producing hydrogen, the mesh seems to kill any chance of it working.
I do have one question, regarding the water temperature. Does the water heat actually aid in the hydrogen production or is it simply the by-product of charging the cell with so many volts and amps?
Or, asked another way, if the cell had a way to continuously circulate cooled water over the plates, thus removing the air bubbles as they are produced, thus ensuring that water is in contact with the plates at almost all times, would this produce the same amount of hydrogen or less or more?
Quote from: wattsup on May 28, 2007, 01:03:40 PM
@IronHead
Speedy recovery. That was a close call, that we all better heed.
I think I am going to put aside my titanium unit and build a 316L unit.
My titanium is meshed so there is no possibility of the neutral plates cascading from one to the other. So it will tak eme a little time to get ready but don't wait for me, keep going and I'll catch up. I was using this for electro-coagulation driving it with 0-5 volts sweep and the object was to simply oxydize minerals, which it does extremely well. But to start producing hydrogen, the mesh seems to kill any chance of it working.
I do have one question, regarding the water temperature. Does the water heat actually aid in the hydrogen production or is it simply the by-product of charging the cell with so many volts and amps?
Or, asked another way, if the cell had a way to continuously circulate cooled water over the plates, thus removing the air bubbles as they are produced, thus ensuring that water is in contact with the plates at almost all times, would this produce the same amount of hydrogen or less or more?
Higher temps but below steaming like about 150 is good for more production in all cases of my study with HHO and Plasma. Just cool to that point and all is good.
We will be building a circulating system injecting water from a sealed but ported bottom up through all plates to increase HHO production .This is very soon.
Not only is water replenish very important at this level but so is water motion.
Along with the condensing , collecting and recirculating of KOH in a closed loop system
Yea. Same here. I originally searched Ebay when I first found this thread several weeks ago.
So far, all I have come up with are a 1/2" x 4' 316L rod, several 3' strands of 1/16" 308L and 316L. Could be used for wiring perhaps, and a nice chunk of 1'x1'x1/2" Teflon. It was cut from a $1000 4'x8' sheet. Might make a good insulator somewhere.
An acquaintance is suppose to get me some 2"x3"x1/16 plates, but not until next month. Then it's catchup time.
The easiest place for me to find stainless is the local welding shop. Don't have to deal with the hastle of ebay..I can purchase 12"x12" 16g 316 for 8 bucks canadian. Cheap enough for me. Can get 6 plates out of 1sq foot. I can also get 20g for 4$ but I would have to travel 100k to get it..
Quote from: IronHead on May 28, 2007, 08:53:32 AM
............................................H20........................................................
...
WATER IS YOUR FUEL LEARN IT!
Water does not only fuel you body but can also fuel your home and your transportation. Your whole life and life style can be supported by water.
Everyone here seems to think they are ready to start pumping waves into the cell . Wrong! . You could but then you would be like the rest of the world producing hundreds of liters with high current instead of thousands.
IronHead
Never knew water could vibrate in so many ways:
http://www.martin.chaplin.btinternet.co.uk/vibrat.html
Hmm - lots going on in the low MHZ region...
Easy introduction:
http://www.martin.chaplin.btinternet.co.uk/mol-easy.html
Site Index:
http://www.martin.chaplin.btinternet.co.uk/index2.html
As if this were not enough, 63 anomolies of water:
http://www.martin.chaplin.btinternet.co.uk/anmlies.html
Great post Grumpy thanks:)
New food for me to understand what I have been doing.
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/hbond.html
Quote:
QuoteDissociation is a rare event, occurring only twice a day that is, only once for every 1016 times the hydrogen bond breaks.
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/anmlous.html#vibr
Quote:
QuoteFree radicals (for example, hydroxyl radicals) and free (hydrated) electrons can be introduced into water by techniques such as electrochemistry, untrasonics or ultraviolet radiation...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water
Quote"electric field fluctuations in liquid water cause molecular dissociation"
From the "Fringe":
"HYDROSONIC POWER GENERATION"
http://www.padrak.com/ine/HSONIC.html
QuoteAnother such implication is that the radial electric field pulsations can cause more of the water to dissociate naturally, perhaps even cooling the water if set up with electric power input rather than by pressure pulsation. That effect gives scope for separating hydrogen and oxygen from water to provide a combustible product of higher energy potential than the electric input consumed.
Ironhead, glad you are alive. Sorry to hear about the trauma. Are you thinking of new protections? I hope you have a speedy recovery. You are in my thoughts.
I would like to Welcome YouTuber aparodox2003 to the forums.
Enjoy! hoping to see your build soon. Good luck
And thank you Yikes
Yes now that I understand more of what happened I can plan out the next build for the injector and the protection system. This one saved my life so it worked but It could be better. Also, The sample will be of a lessor mass.
THE BASICS
Power supply #6 at 36 volts and 12 amps.
Supply runs into a 36 volt 18khz brushed motor speed controller.
The controller runs into a coil so that it thinks there is a motor attached
then to the cell.
Don't get side tracked by this, but I wanted to point out something I just noticed in similarity between These two videos, one of which was posted by John Aarons 16hrs ago.
Sgihunter -->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVmHFKHnmro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVmHFKHnmro)
**Look for something about halfway through video, in the flatplate config.
JohnAarons-->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltnlviCqu70 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltnlviCqu70)
**same thing seems to be occuring here in John's video at 6:26mins in.
The confusing part, IronHead didn't see his "sparks" while filming, but in John's you can see it real time, and I know that this isn't bad connections sparking like jumper cables... spark almost looks to be following a ... field .. or something...
-rapttor
Good post @ rapttor
yup electrons following the lines of flux. DC runs outside the wire, AC runs inside the wire. he is using DC.
As far as reversal goes the electrons are getting caught up in the magnets field.
This has been used for years as a containment field. I will also be talking about using magnetics to restrict amps with out heat build up like you would get in a resistor. Also getting in to building and dumping a magnetic field to store and dump electrons. This is all part of the pulsing and electron delivery system.
Magnetic field lines flow from North to South...at first he had the wires from the battery hooked up to the north side of the magnets, this will allow the electrons to flow with the field lines. When he turned the magnets around the electrons where slamming into the south poles of the magnetic field and being shot out at right angles.
Man, you are my saving grace.. I've got a bench top mini milling machine that has a pwm motor speed controller with a variable pot speed control on it already... I didn't even think of that!! I know what I'm disecting tonight!! Cool part is that there's a built in current limiting circuit that shuts it down when she draws too much amperage...
;D ;D ;D
-rapttor
Begging mercy for their sins... Satan laughing spreads his wings.... O' lord yeah
Hopes it works as you are raping what sounds like a nice mill lol
For the record I did not tell anyone to take the house,car and mill apart to see if
that particular part will work in your cell.
I have made more useful technology to support my life from what people throw away than anything I have ever bought off the shelf.
IronHead
That's only my lil mill, plus the trans kept blowing gears... Metal + Nylon = breaks many times....
:D
hi all
i am a member of this forum without any posts yet...but in the future i'll post some of my own Experiences with WFC and other things. I Also readed all your good, bad ... stupid and smart conclusions...however i want you to know that i respect all your work, enthusiasm and effort you are showing here with all those ideas and/or knowledge.
I come from Europe and I am just like all of you sick of this dirty Fashist world where Oil and Money Rules.... and cos we all here know that there are a plenty Free energy devices already allover the planet I would like to contribute with some suggestions and some knowledge about WFC and most important about the world we are living in. I cant say how much of you guys here know something about Real Reality (Out of the Matrix) of this world or even how much of you will think now "this guy is nuts" so i will start with some suggestions:
I admire IronHead who is a real "guru" here:
No offense Iron, but there is something I dont understand with you. Of course people had to have knowledge about things they are involved in..otherwise "shit happens"... but in your last post you finally admitted that even you dont know everything about water and its molecular or atomic structure..and thats the truth. So shit happend...to you...hope You are OK and well (dont play with RF). Nobody knows everything on this Planet (exept......No...not me). Nevermind... you've got so fascinating result with your expertise that you could easily become a real "energy guru" but please dont do that...you have a Warrior Heart, Not King Heart...King's are cold and gready...you are NOT. So share more of your work in details...as you can see you can learn from others too...we all are learning from each other and as you all know ..on this world a Parent will allways learn more from the child than oposite. What I would like to say IronHead is that...that...well...maybe I am wrong but it seems that you think you have to go slow..so people can understand you.. Nice, but I think that here are most guys with some IQ and understanding..so they/we can understand a lot of things. But from the other side...Sometimes I think you are just like me...Learning to fast and expecting from all others to understand your point of view. We both know that this is not the way...sharing is the way...nothing else...we all have our own eyes and our own point of view...so you can't expect from someone else to see exact the same things from some of your own observations....of course there are very very dangerous things here but to prevent something bad to happen we need to cooperate...very bad things will happen soon enough if we dont get power,money, gread and all those matrix-shit out of our heads..and if we dont share these natural resources with people all over the world...first then we will be in deeeeeep shiiiit...sooon....so lets roll these things before "they" figure out and take control again...cos they can...again...
I have learned a lot of things from all of you guys here...thanks a million time...I hope I will somehow help you too with my knowledge, info and/or other ideas I might have.
hmmm... for start:
Did someone try this?: Just an idea for someone with a lot of amps... ;)
You all are avoiding or preventing water to boil. But this can be very useful. We know that atom(molecular) links weakening when temperature rises...so they are much more breakable at high temperature. Ok...first we get more gas output BUT....you dont want steam you say..its trash you say...well its not. Steam is at that point very useful if you put some additional electrodes "in the air" above your cell (main) electrodes (very close to each other - same or smaller voltage). This way steam can't "escape", you get more gas and you get some of the mayer system efects...
For all of you looking for Tungsten (Wolfram) in Europe
http://www.wolfram-industrie.com/ (http://www.wolfram-industrie.com/)
They have a lot of products from pure Tungsten/Wolfram
Also...Consider this.. If you use thinner SS electrodes you get less resistance with the same effect. I have used 0.3 0.2 and 0.1 mm SS plates from a shop in Austria. Manufacturer is from US and they also have online shop... http://www.shopaid.com/onlinesales.htm (http://www.shopaid.com/onlinesales.htm)
Wow, ok man I wish you could see the way I live.
Many here already know.
Anyway thank you for the complements and the advice
Steam is not at all trash. but at the moment we don't want it for many resigns .
First these cells are open at the moment and are caustic. We would like to stay around 150 for that resign. We have barely goten into how to power the cell let alone close it up and start cracking steam and multi staged ionizing tricks.
I mean we could jump right from where we are to a spherical chamber full of steam in which we pump khz/mhz of RF into until the thing blows up at 50,000 psi in an instant.
Oh trust me we could.
But that would be inventing the automobile before we invent the wheel.
No one I know here would understand the sympathetic vibration calculation to properly resonate a specifically designed harmonic chamber that you would have to build by hand. Except maybe Grumpy. Meaning I could put a blue print up here and none of you will get it to work. Why do I say that. How many people have done this since its first discovery in the 1840s by Keely?
But I get your point. things are slow maybe to slow but slow is safe. How long did it take Meyers to build one chamber , how long did it take Tesla to build a motor that no one has ever seen before.
How long did it take for others to properly replicate Tesla's work even though he gave the full prints and docs. the people now 100 years later are baffled by the pattens,prints and text.
I will give you a clue to understanding all this stuff. Kick your brain out the door and let The Mind take over.
In this head there is only Iron (antenna,collector) outside is The Mind.
IronHead
well i dont want to destroy this topic it has to go it's way....but have some things to tell you. Can we go with this talk to other thread or PM?
Sure
PM me , I'll give you one of my email addys in reply.
Sorry mramos i disagree with you. would you give a child a loaded gun? there is not difference. Take it slow for the people that realy don't understand. Just because someone knows how to stick a couple of plates in a vat of water and put some voltage to it does not mean he / she is ready for what is to come or knows what he is doing.
What's the hurry?
It's not you that knows how to do this, if it was you wouldn't be here. The only one here who has replicated or has gotten anywhere is ironhead..this is his shit and he can go as slow as he wants...he could just say the hell with you all and take his stuff and run..but no where is he? He is right here with the rest of us showing US how to replicate HIS design. It is up to him.
enough said.
Quote from: mramos on May 30, 2007, 10:15:17 PM
Going to bed.. Thanks Velmax..
Hoped this thread would have sped up. I have 2 cells now and I know mine is a lot better (and all the plates have holes and only 3 plates). But hoped to learn and make mine better.
This is going too slow. Why the game? Outline the steps (not show your game) and let all here figure it out and share.
Anyone that gets hurt, that was "their" choice. If they do NOT know the power they should not be here.
I have seen the "light" and back after 2 years (light as in "big bang" that stopped me before).
Can we step it up or move to another place?
I concur w / hkyle.. this pace is working just fine, and my house still has four walls thank you.
;)
Just got my new power supply built..This guy will only put out 150 watts worth of power, it's built out of an old computer power supply...There is also a Variac hooked up to this so I can control the voltage going to the cell..
Trust me that's all the watts I am going to need. ;)
My last cell put out 6-7 liters / min on 324 watts. Efficiency is the key how well you make and seal your cell.
Hey Raptor lol...
Also I just purchased the container that will be holding the electrolyte. The thanks goes to Keithturtle for that. This is going to work great.
@HKyle
Variac on a pc pwr supply... there's an innovative use of something that I know for me I've got enough of them, some serve as doorstops, paperweights .. source of already cut to length jumpers...
Well, I cannibalized the pwm controller off that little benchtop mill I have last night, and fired it up, but the output has a built in over current protection built in, which cuts out at 4.5A... I got it to run for a while at 36volts, but it heated up and then just kept shutting off... so looks like I'm back to building a ghetto pulse unit, with a encoder & disk from a printer... switching a fet... I've got an old apc ups unit that's got 24vdc out to keep the batteries charged, at a decent current.
One thing that keeps popping into my head though, is trying my variac with a diode on one leg of the ac only... giving a ->->-> & <><><>
Keep the sparks to a minimum...
-rapttor
@rapttor
This is what ironhead suggested for me a while back. The one speed controller is good for up to 40amps at 24 volts...not to bad but still good for testing...I'm still thinking about it.
A variac regulates power by limiting the amplitude of the voltage sine wave. By restricting the maximum voltage of the sine wave a variac limits the area under the curve which is equivalent to limiting the power contained in a single sine wave.
Not sure it that helps ya. But I think you would be better off with a full wave bridge instead of a single diode.
Was that diode before or after the variac?
Quote from: IronHead on April 16, 2007, 01:55:54 PM
Have you ever looked into the pulse DC motor controllers like that used in electric cars or scooters. I use this one on my Jeep cell . It 's fully programmable 14 to 58 volts and
can handle up to 330 amps. The 48330 Motor Controller
http://robotcombat.com/marketplace_speedcontrollers.html
For testing you can try something like this but it is not programmable , just a cheap way to go for testing, pulsing ,and controlling amps.
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/product_p/co-ct-816b9.htm
I have been working with the VIC and do not prefer it at this time.
This is why I have not yet posted anything about the VICs design and its outcome.
Also in the VIC pdf (Attached) there are many things to confuse or to cover the patent.
For instance there are no resisters at the chokes , It's just showing two or 3 ways to do it in the same layout.
Volts are key in a capacitor type cell.
IronHead
Quote from: mramos on May 31, 2007, 06:44:32 AM
Would I give a child a loaded gun? Not even going to answer that one as it is not related what I asked.
There is no hurry, though I have worked on this since 2002, like to see one that works better than mine or improve mine. And I have read many post, and I have not seen more gas yet. I guess I will have to wait.
Would I be here. I am here now? I have left post on my setup as well. As well, have built one of Ironheads and building another of Ironheads..
I asked for a outline of the step, not all his answers.
Like many other, I will keep my peace, pop in at time and see if I can learn.
While waiting for the next step with the build of this cell, there are many things that you can try with the current configuration.
Keely dissociated water with 42,800 hz - bam! 29,000 psi !
Meyers was trying to develop an injector that dissociated water.
What happens when you apply various frequencies or fields to the present cell design? You could place a rotating magnetic field around it in different orientations, or even two opposing fields, or two counter-rotating fields - run them up through a broad range of frequencies - from "as low" to "as high" as you can go.
Might try a spark plug at 42,800 hz in a bottle with a single drop of water - warmed in sun to turn water to vapour.
"capacitative" type cells - what about "inductive" or "tempic field" types?
Hmm - I ought to write these ideas down...
LOL....Grumpy i never know what your talking about...beyond me. what is a tempic field?
Quote from: Grumpy on May 31, 2007, 12:00:26 PM
Quote from: mramos on May 31, 2007, 06:44:32 AM
Would I give a child a loaded gun? Not even going to answer that one as it is not related what I asked.
There is no hurry, though I have worked on this since 2002, like to see one that works better than mine or improve mine. And I have read many post, and I have not seen more gas yet. I guess I will have to wait.
Would I be here. I am here now? I have left post on my setup as well. As well, have built one of Ironheads and building another of Ironheads..
I asked for a outline of the step, not all his answers.
Like many other, I will keep my peace, pop in at time and see if I can learn.
While waiting for the next step with the build of this cell, there are many things that you can try with the current configuration.
Keely dissociated water with 42,800 hz - bam! 29,000 psi !
Meyers was trying to develop an injector that dissociated water.
What happens when you apply various frequencies or fields to the present cell design? You could place a rotating magnetic field around it in different orientations, or even two opposing fields, or two counter-rotating fields - run them up through a broad range of frequencies - from "as low" to "as high" as you can go.
Might try a spark plug at 42,800 hz in a bottle with a single drop of water - warmed in sun to turn water to vapour.
"capacitative" type cells - what about "inductive" or "tempic field" types?
Hmm - I ought to write these ideas down...
HKyle... can you provide me with a stick figure diagram? (I smell what you're stepping in sir..)a normal FWBR has both neutral / Hot going to it, were you suggesting it just on the hot leg like I was trying to relay across....
This was a bad week to quit smoking those little white rocks...
-rapttor
LOL are you saying i'm full of $%#$....I don't know what you mean...
What do you mean about relay across?
sorry i don't understand :-[ When I go home for lunch i will grab the camara and take a picture of the variac that I will be using.
Quote from: rapttor on May 31, 2007, 01:22:47 PM
HKyle... can you provide me with a stick figure diagram? (I smell what you're stepping in sir..)a normal FWBR has both neutral / Hot going to it, were you suggesting it just on the hot leg like I was trying to relay across....
This was a bad week to quit smoking those little white rocks...
-rapttor
@hkyle
Quote from: hkyle on May 31, 2007, 12:13:07 PM
LOL....Grumpy i never know what your talking about...beyond me. what is a tempic field?
Yeah, there's maybe one person on this forum that ever understands what I'm saying.
"Tempic field" (aka torsion field, or time field) is the field that most do not know exist and is perpendicular to the magnetic and electric fields. It is one dimensional - scalar - like temperature. Non-elastic. Non-cancelling. the term "tempic" comes from Wilbert B. Smith's book "The New Science".
'Time" is not a constant rate of entropy, we have just been tought that it is. Change the rate of time within a cell and you'll get all of the HHO you need. Of course, dissociating water will get you there instantly.
Quote from: Grumpy on May 31, 2007, 01:42:37 PM
@hkyle
Quote from: hkyle on May 31, 2007, 12:13:07 PM
LOL....Grumpy i never know what your talking about...beyond me. what is a tempic field?
Yeah, there's maybe one person on this forum that ever understands what I'm saying.
"Tempic field" (aka torsion field, or time field) is the field that most do not know exist and is perpendicular to the magnetic and electric fields. It is one dimensional - scalar - like temperature. Non-elastic. Non-cancelling. the term "tempic" comes from Wilbert B. Smith's book "The New Science".
'Time" is not a constant rate of entropy, we have just been tought that it is. Change the rate of time within a cell and you'll get all of the HHO you need. Of course, dissociating water will get you there instantly.
Just when I think I have a grasp on certain electronic theories, and some of the ways that components are"suppose to" function, along comes Grumpy,... who takes a leak in my cheerios... ???
But, I totally believe there's another whole side of the electronics realm that we haven't even touched yet, there is in lots of other areas of our existence on this cute little rock we call home.
Keep it coming, what I can't fit on the hard drive will just spill out my ears....
no kidding...I was just thinking that i need one of those kindergarten pop up picture books to understand what Grumpy just said.....
Rapttor you are hilarious...
OK so starting with the modified power supply..
This unit will max out at 150w of power. On the top right is the 120v input (filtered), below that is the input from the variac and the two green pegs are the 120v output going to the variac. On the back of the Power Supply you see 2 wires Black and White. Black is Negative DC and White is Positive DC.
With the Variac starting on the right are the 2 green pegs for the input, the 2 black wires are the input to the Primary coil of the 55w transformer that will be going in later. The 2 green pegs on the left are for the secondary ac output going into the power supply to be rectified.
Output power = 1650w
input power = 145w 120v at 1.2a
Once Gumpy and I move this tread to a higher level I will explain/translate and we may do a few experiments on what he is talking about.
The Things that have been worked on lately. A different level of HHO altogether.
As I said before and as Grumpy has just proven that we could talk about the highend all day an leap from here right to it ,but none will make sense to you at the moment .You must physically and mentally climb the ladder to that place Where you will all hopefully understand. This is what takes time.
IronHead
Quote from: mramos on May 30, 2007, 10:15:17 PM
Going to bed.. Thanks Velmax..
Hoped this thread would have sped up. I have 2 cells now and I know mine is a lot better (and all the plates have holes and only 3 plates). But hoped to learn and make mine better.
This is going too slow. Why the game? Outline the steps (not show your game) and let all here figure it out and share.
Anyone that gets hurt, that was "their" choice. If they do NOT know the power they should not be here.
I have seen the "light" and back after 2 years (light as in "big bang" that stopped me before).
Can we step it up or move to another place?
Funny you say to slow and Velmax emailed me saying I was going to fast and I misunderstood what he was trying to say.
Game ? ok not that I have been out for two weeks because of injuries or anything.
Not that people can follow plans or anything when they are clear.
I am doing this for you and you talk about me playing a game with you . I did not have to give you the info . There is enough info here now to produce as much HHO as a Magdrive. GAME!!
You are not under any contract or promise to do any of this . You have chosen to follow or replicate my design no one forced you here.
If you are producing more gas than we are here fine go away and do it on your own. Then come back when we have surpassed you .I am not here to build your cell you are here to build mine by your choice.. And it aint my fault you been screwing this up since 2002
IronHead
Ok , I would like for you guys to start showing and talking about what you are doing and seeing in these cells ,so I know were you are. We have to start plyting with basic pulse and talking about the whys. Please list your outcomes so far.
Man, you want to be serious..ok, I'll give it a shot...
I'm using distilled water, with only a couple granules of sodium hyd. in it, to give the electrical energy a better grab at separating those H2 atoms from it's bond.
I only added the lye, After I charged the cell 30@12v & again @24 & @36
*I did set the polarity before entirely connecting the cell up.
Water took on the consistency of liquid plastic, but not as evidently as when I used spring water, this is probably due to the magnetic field being created doesn't have as much dissolved "ormus" metals to concentrate. But, when I used just spring H20, it turned into a betty crocker cake maker, instead of an electrolyzer... I should have know better than to use spring water from Nestle, the chocolate milk Co.
Cell never went much above room temp
@12v, big bubbles formed, very little small fine bubbles
@24v, less big bubbles, much more fine tiny bubbles now, 85/15% sm/large
@36v, almost all sm bubbles, taking on a more vigorous action, can no longer see between the plates, atomized water cloud now becoming visible coming off the top.
That's where I'm at, I don't think I left anything out...
Good job so far . Anyone else ?
Well not much has changed between now and pg 27..Sittin back relaxin laughing. havin a good time.
And sealing up the sides of the cell to prevent leakage around the plates...
Been caught up for a while.
And my cell also hasnt been above room temp.
did not use slots - (have nylon washers between plates and 1/4-20 acetal rod to hold it all together) - charge leakage - will inject Goop and or glue in insulators (cut acrylic strips) to fix - will heat cure in sunlight on large brown welding table (probably about 120 degrees as it is hot to touch but won't scorch ya).
Have an A-field coil (toroid for everyone else) wound with #14 THHN (house wire) stranded on a 6" PVC (sch 40 - about 1/4" wall) core - it's about a foot long. After charging and getting tiny bubbles (pun intended), I'll insert the cell (in a small container) into the coil and pulse it various ways - low power. Will try two of these coils when time allows.
Also, cut a top bottom plate but left it loose - wa thinking of leakage at top and bottom edges of plates but may be better to apply a little insulation (goop) to these edges and leave them open.
Make sure you can turn the container inside the field without obstruction.
You know there will be a narrow sweet spot.Also put a sheet of vented aluminum foil over top ,might get a few EVO holes or "blue pins" . Just look close after you shut it down.
If the plates want to be sideways, I'll have to build a new cell, still have enough ss for another.
Would be smart to map the potential field (A-field) to see how it really manifests in a stretched toroid. Should be more linear inside than depicted by a round ring toroid. I'll take a few minutes to do this first. Might have to connect cell +|||||||||||- and remove the split with only one coil if the potential is end to end, but if the potential is actually inside to outside - got to go tubular (I'll cheat and roll flat sheets) or go back to the split positive and make 'er crossed to keep potential drop linear.
Perforated foil - hmm - could be a market for that - LOL!
Ain't nobody tried everything yet and this ain't normal "potential" I'm dealing with - linear with distance - not inverse squared.
Git'er dun!
Hey Grumpy this is fascinating stuff your into...don't suppose pic and explanations could be involved later on hey....Can't find this type of stuff in text books or on the web...
Quote from: Grumpy on May 31, 2007, 05:47:32 PM
did not use slots - (have nylon washers between plates and 1/4-20 acetal rod to hold it all together) - charge leakage - will inject Goop and or glue in insulators (cut acrylic strips) to fix - will heat cure in sunlight on large brown welding table (probably about 120 degrees as it is hot to touch but won't scorch ya).
Have an A-field coil (toroid for everyone else) wound with #14 THHN (house wire) stranded on a 6" PVC (sch 40 - about 1/4" wall) core - it's about a foot long. After charging and getting tiny bubbles (pun intended), I'll insert the cell (in a small container) into the coil and pulse it various ways - low power. Will try two of these coils when time allows.
Also, cut a top bottom plate but left it loose - wa thinking of leakage at top and bottom edges of plates but may be better to apply a little insulation (goop) to these edges and leave them open.
Quote from: Grumpy on May 31, 2007, 06:09:42 PM
If the plates want to be sideways, I'll have to build a new cell, still have enough ss for another.
Would be smart to map the potential field (A-field) to see how it really manifests in a stretched toroid. Should be more linear inside than depicted by a round ring toroid. I'll take a few minutes to do this first. Might have to connect cell +|||||||||||- and remove the split with only one coil if the potential is end to end, but if the potential is actually inside to outside - got to go tubular (I'll cheat and roll flat sheets) or go back to the split positive and make 'er crossed to keep potential drop linear.
Perforated foil - hmm - could be a market for that - LOL!
Ain't nobody tried everything yet and this ain't normal "potential" I'm dealing with - linear with distance - not inverse squared.
Git'er dun!
I think a single plate might tell you enough to know if you should build onto the mechanical or more toward the electronic.
@IH
My progress report, in lesser detail:
Built 2 19 plate cells, both of 316L and GOOP marine, one acrylic and one polycarbonate. Polarized and ran the acrylic cell as per instructions, but never got it to draw much current, and no gas production to speak of, even with 36 volts applied, in two different srping waters.
I must review the thread beyond pg 14. Time constraints, ya know..
Anyhow, I wanna make tests on materials compatability, so to that end I've spent most of my available project time on fashioning 2x3" plates to be affixed by a variety of means, and tested under a variety of solutions and conditions (Pulse or amps, KOH, NaOH, acids,etc).
That containment PVC bucket took HOURS to make, notwithstanding the time to remove all them dang screws holding the lid on...(what was I thinking?!?) so I've cannibalized a case of wide-mouth canning jars. Hole saw thru the center of lid, sandwich two acrylic discs with sealer and MEK glue, drill and tap for contacts and 1/4 pipe output fitting, and presto- a quick and dirty containment vessel suitable for output measurement and process testing. Pics to follw in 4 days.
Take your time, man; you've been there and have a grip on the process. For those too impatient for the outcome, y'all might jest as well use the opportunity to learn some patience.
Keith
Wire to start mapping and then plate since this what I will be u sing in the cell.
For those who do not know what I am talking about:
"You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember...all Im offering is the truth, nothing more. "~ Morpheus The Matrix
Take the damn red pill!
About those power supplies:
I've been into Radio-controlled airplanes quite a while. In the past few years electrics have made big advances with lithium batteries providing a greater power reserve for the weight. The motors are also 3phase which require an elaborate controller converting DC to 3ph AC, but the older controllers are still out there. Here
http://www.astroflight.com/store/store-Controls.html?sid=00011hM4mwQvzFIvRw4R6F8
is a source for high amp moderate voltage (up to 40 VDC I think) controllers that may serve our purpose. Only thing is y'all need a radio system or servo driver to control them. I plan on using one of these if I cain't find anything else.
Also search for "castle creations" speed control.
Keith
Ok, so i just found this thread, but i have done a lot of research on 'HHO', I'm tryin to get the material together for a cell like the one ironhead is having us make, i don't think that will take too long
--The cell that i built before finding this thread was a cylindrical type made from aluminum, it consisted of one positive and one negative spaced approx. 1/16 in. apart.
this was of course my preliminary test to see if i could even create a flammable gas using potable water. I used 18V and 300mA for the system, I've ran this system three times now over about 3 weeks (for fun) ;D but i now have this clowdy thick stuff in my water, when it settles to the botton it looks kindof like the stuff a jellyfish is made of. It creeps my wife out cuz it came from the same water we use to cook with.
--I wouldn't recomment taking pills, if u plan on playing with electrolosis
Did you have any type of electrolyte in this cell? LYE, KOH, God help me SALT.
If so you will be getting a reaction with the aluminum.
I know that if you take strips of aluminum foil and fold it into balls and place that in any type of electrolyte you will be makin hydrogen and aluminum oxide, the aluminum oxide will settle on the bottom of the cell.
This is one way of making hydrogen without electricity, and would probably explain the junk on the bottom of the cell.
Quote from: aparodox2003 on June 01, 2007, 12:04:18 AM
Ok, so i just found this thread, but i have done a lot of research on 'HHO', I'm tryin to get the material together for a cell like the one ironhead is having us make, i don't think that will take too long
--The cell that i built before finding this thread was a cylindrical type made from aluminum, it consisted of one positive and one negative spaced approx. 1/16 in. apart.
this was of course my preliminary test to see if i could even create a flammable gas using potable water. I used 18V and 300mA for the system, I've ran this system three times now over about 3 weeks (for fun) ;D but i now have this clowdy thick stuff in my water, when it settles to the botton it looks kindof like the stuff a jellyfish is made of. It creeps my wife out cuz it came from the same water we use to cook with.
--I wouldn't recomment taking pills, if u plan on playing with electrolosis
Be careful with aluminum reactions, on a large scale anyway. contain the stuff and
waste it properly .
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC33869
Treat KOH with the same respect
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC33653
The next steps are going to be on much higher voltage. Yeah I know that 2 volts or whatever is all you can put on each plate in a cell and then you get heat beyond that.
But if I put 200 volts at low amps to my cell and get 10 times the output of HHO at 150F* then you bet I will deal with the heat and in the long run the heat will be used to aid reaction once the cell is all closed up and running in a circuit .
This will be when there is a cooling circuit in place to condense steam and KOH back and return to the cell. We are not there yet. So for those that have Variacs we want to see the effect as we turn up the voltage in straight water.
This is going to help understand the steps that will be taken in controlling amp dump, where we use volts instead of amps to get high output. The amps will go up as you do this ,but We will be talking about restricting those amps using magnetic fields ie chokes. Your are going to need a 300 volt Full bridge rectifier and a minimum 220AC output variac.
This step is for an HV-HHO and not completely necessary to work with.
This is only for those that wish to get into into HV
For those that are not ready to do this just keep your eyes on what the rest are doing and learn while you are building your cells and testing the charge.
Things are going to start branching off into different types of cells, you choose which path to follow
There will be time to prepare for all of this.
I still want to hear from the rest of you and your cell progress including you guys that don't normally post.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi180.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx171%2Fmryikes%2F2007_0601irontest0003.jpg&hash=cd22606b41534aa9783cbce24f9d259f2dbc05f1)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi180.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx171%2Fmryikes%2F2007_0601irontest0002.jpg&hash=a0c41e4795b9ece6e3dc39056676e90b530441ef)
I am here with you and have been for quite some time. It has taken time to get the "stuff" I need. But I am coming up to speed now. The plates and cell are conditioned and are responding normally. I am hampered by a 28k dial-up so I am selective when viewing video. I am now off work for the summer and plan on spending most of my time down in the shop.
I want to thank you IH, for taking your time to help all of us in this learning process.
Looks top notch Yikes and thank you.
One thing I should add is. Cut some strips of Acrylic to put under the cell to lift it up off the bottom so it can circulate.
Anyone else have some pics or just a good explanation of the progress?
Dudes! Check out that jar of instant coffee! Yeah baby!, we're wired for sound now! can't evn keep my hands straight. My coffee don't need no cup - freakin' radioactive - yeah!
Re-Sealing went well - had already added about 1/2 inch to side plates to raise it up - ends only - side are off bottom.
Dabbled with A-feid coil - will take some sweeping and tuning to find the sweet spot - if their is one.
Need to know current and frequency requirements for variac - ASAP - got an angle on one.
Good job ! current at least 10 amps and 220 volts , no freq just your standard 60hz
10 amps - 220v - that's dual (must be 35 lbs - yikes)
Have to squeeze this into the budget and the door - unnoticed - he he he...
Might have to caveman at first - i.e. transformer - won't be that adjustable - but it's free.
I've got a 150V Variac, that I installed a 50A full wave bridge rectifier, my calculations gonculate the current out at about 12-14Amps I have on tap at the moment.
What if I re-wound a M.O. Transformer I have to step up the output capabilities? right now the output is 2k@18A... (not something to get so much as a "lil" zap from).
I asked this before, but I don't know if it was noticed by anyone but hkyle, but I asked about blocking one leg of straight AC with a diode, now you are mentioning a choke... so I was in the right train of mind, just the methodology on doing it bass-ackwards?
Dammit I wished my funct. gen. kit that I had didn't take a flight into the wall the other night, (elenco 9600) I was getting things setup to finally use it, and play with sine@varying Freq's when I turned around in my shop, caught the elenco with a wire & proceeded to unintentionally shoot it like a hockey puck at the wall, shattering it in to many more pieces than the kit came with.
man, time to defrag my head...
-rapttor
Keep what you have don't modify it. The Diode is also part of what we will be doing.
Right now we want to see the effect of High voltages and low freqs. Diodes and Chokes will come into play on the controlling what we see.
You can also add a step up transformer to this 150 volt Variac.
Lets see what you get with what you have first.
Just when she starts to steam up shut it down and wear safety gear.
First lets put some rectified DC volts to straight water and you tell me if there is more HHO production in Higher voltages. You tell me how long it takes to steam.
Also note with the 60hz AC rectified to DC you will have some low freqs going into the cell take note to any difference in production .When she gets hot note if she starts to sing or even vibrate right across the bench.
I put my titanium mesh plates as +2n-2n+ and tried with 24 volts. Amperage was around 0.5 so I added some salt (yes well ventilated) to increase the conductivity. Things started to happen about 5-6 minutes later when the water started to warm up. Hydrogen was produced as can be seen when flaming it, it snaps, crackles and pops (mmmmm). Will find a source for KOH.
I also tried diluting a mineral supplement tablet of selenium (we all lack this in the diet - see Nexus) and poured it in with the water. This added some mineral to assist in the production. Although small production, it is encouraging.
I will not do the side panels with this titanium since it is meshed, the purpose would be defeated from the start. Will look to make a stainless unit.
Last thing, Teslas' patent 568,177 is of a very effecient ozone generator that produces arcs to generate ozone gas. Could this same set-up be usefull for hydrogen production or is the effect that a spark may be generated too dangerous and would risk igniting the hydrogen as it is produced. I saw some sparks in other hydrogen generator videos and those did not ignite the hydrogen.
Good experimenting .
Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) Lye
Look for this at any hardware store.
http://www.amazon.com/ROOTO-CORPORATION-1030-Drain-Opener/dp/B000BOCAOY
Some sparks will ignite and some wont . Its about heat at that point and if the spark break the surface of the bubble or just goes around its surface.
Quote from: IronHead on May 28, 2007, 08:53:32 AMWe will use sine , saw waves, your AC understanding and we will also use
Radio waves , sound. We might even build our own high freq speaker/transmitter if this goes that far ,or is the cell itself a transducer. Also the possibility of shaped magnetic fields using magnetic coils . Then we will combined all that is learned and do as you will.
Sorry to hear about your mishap, that must have been one heck of an explosion to do that physical damage to you. I hope you have a complete recovery!
For the project: frankly I hope this goes that far and beyond if there is a beyond. i have a zillion questions but unfortunately it would get ahead of things so i will reserve them till we approach the "combined" point of the project.
This is a great project you have us on here!
Quote from: hkyle on May 31, 2007, 10:44:28 AM
Trust me that's all the watts I am going to need. ;)
My last cell put out 6-7 liters / min on 324 watts. Efficiency is the key how well you make and seal your cell.
Do you, or does anyone have data on how many litres of HHO per minute it takes to run and accelerate a 6 liter automotive gas engine?
I have not been able to find anything conclusive on it?
Quote from: rapttor on May 31, 2007, 11:37:53 AM
@HKyle
Variac on a pc pwr supply... there's an innovative use of something that I know for me I've got enough of them, some serve as doorstops, paperweights .. source of already cut to length jumpers...
Well, I cannibalized the pwm controller off that little benchtop mill I have last night, and fired it up, but the output has a built in over current protection built in, which cuts out at 4.5A... I got it to run for a while at 36volts, but it heated up and then just kept shutting off... so looks like I'm back to building a ghetto pulse unit, with a encoder & disk from a printer... switching a fet... I've got an old apc ups unit that's got 24vdc out to keep the batteries charged, at a decent current.
One thing that keeps popping into my head though, is trying my variac with a diode on one leg of the ac only... giving a ->->-> & <><><>
Keep the sparks to a minimum...
-rapttor
Here are some reasonable and nice controller units i used to put on machinery that i built.. they are pretty reasonably priced too.
https://www.kb-controls.com/categoryNavigationDocument.hg?categoryId=2
Thanks kokomoj0
3000 to 4000 liters per hour.
For the big nasty controllers and such.
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/
http://robotcombat.com/marketplace_electronics.html
Diode bridge Info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_rectifier
For big alternators.
http://www.electrodyne.com/index.html
For Programmable ECM and Injector Mods
http://www.megasquirt.info/
For O2 sensor
I will teach you to build signal changer
Clear PVC
http://www.clearpvcpipe.com/
For Freq Generators
eBay.com
For Metal
http://www.onlinemetals.com/
http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=7864&step=4&showunits=inches
Just a list this will be reposted at a later date in Phase 4
IronHead
Well, for todays tests:
I had the 18 cells conditioned and had 25.8 volts at 2.4 amps. Had very few bubbles coming off. I used a small but powerful flashlight to see better in the cells and it seemed as though the light generated more bubbles. I tried it several times. Let's see: 25.8 / 18 = 1.43 v per cell. Faraday is 1.5 (1.7 emf - .2 heat). Was I just imagining this or could a light generate .57 v? It seemed to work best when shining the light directly at the plate (neg.) Of course, it could have been just the
cccoooofffeeeeeee working it's magic.
Continued on and noticed that the bubbles did not want to break the surface tension. They would always head for the meniscus on the plates, so much so that the bubbles coming off the neg. plate would travel over to the pos plate because of local pressure on the neg. plate, but would not break the surface in the center.
It seemed like 50 to 100X the number of bubbles on the neg. compared to the pos.
Added Naoh, 24.5 v at 5.2 amps. Bubble size now dime and quarter sized. Scraped some bubbles off with a pencil and lighted it, got a crackle. Saw some whiffs of smoke. I got down level and with the flashlite saw a standing wave of bubbles 1/2 inch above the solution. Cool. Waved my hand above and moved the wave. The bubbles were coming out of the solution and were being pulled down by gravity and also pulled over to the neg. plate. And some were 2" away from the plate! in air!
But what are the bubbles? Is the H trapped in a water molecule? It was heavier than air, so it wasn't just H. Are we splitting one H off the O? What is H 1 O? Or said another way when 1 H is taken away from h2O what is left?
This is fun!
You crack me up man seeing you have such a good time with this. hehe
You have HHO there is all kinds of stuff that come into play here for strange things that seem to happen , Heat , Surface tension, Magnetic field ,highly energized negative electrons and to much coffee.
Keep up the study of your cell
and enjoy
Well I'm back...nice to see things moving along..Thanks ironhead.
Just a q but is there a cap on how much voltage you dump into your cell?
Ya know ummm some dooos and don'ts. ::)
All i got is 120v or 2000v
and my variac will only handle 120v at 2.5 amps ???
Quote from: IronHead on June 01, 2007, 09:33:37 AM
Be careful with aluminum reactions, on a large scale anyway. contain the stuff and
waste it properly .
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC33869
Treat KOH with the same respect
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC33653
The next steps are going to be on much higher voltage. Yeah I know that 2 volts or whatever is all you can put on each plate in a cell and then you get heat beyond that.
But if I put 200 volts at low amps to my cell and get 10 times the output of HHO at 150F* then you bet I will deal with the heat and in the long run the heat will be used to aid reaction once the cell is all closed up and running in a circuit .
This will be when there is a cooling circuit in place to condense steam and KOH back and return to the cell. We are not there yet. So for those that have Variacs we want to see the effect as we turn up the voltage in straight water.
This is going to help understand the steps that will be taken in controlling amp dump, where we use volts instead of amps to get high output. The amps will go up as you do this ,but We will be talking about restricting those amps using magnetic fields ie chokes. Your are going to need a 300 volt Full bridge rectifier and a minimum 220AC output variac.
This step is for an HV-HHO and not completely necessary to work with.
This is only for those that wish to get into into HV
For those that are not ready to do this just keep your eyes on what the rest are doing and learn while you are building your cells and testing the charge.
Things are going to start branching off into different types of cells, you choose which path to follow
There will be time to prepare for all of this.
I still want to hear from the rest of you and your cell progress including you guys that don't normally post.
Hi All,
This looks like a fun forum. I suppose I need some Stainless steel to start building one of these cells. Any suggestions on the type of Stainless steel to use and where to purchase it. Home Depot or Lowes maybe?
Welcome, magnetar;
You'll find a few things at Homer's, like sheet 1/4" acrylic, marine GOOP, and wire connectors, but the stainless has to be good grade stuff. ALRO has it, or read throught the thread and find the online sources IronHead posted. 20 ga 316L will flat eat yer jigsaw blades fer lunch, but that's the price you'll pay if you wanna play. And nickel ain't cheap since all the gas grills and kitchen appliances are using stainless.
"Fun forum?"
Well, If you think in terms of beating big oil into submission, at least in yer own sphere of influence, then, yes, it's a veritable blast.
Yet, that blast could take on some mighty unbecoming characteristics if you don't take this research seriously.
Jest a friendly warning, magnetar. Handle with care.
keith
Here's that mason jar lid mod and it running on 0.01 normal KOH
The cylinders are single test units from a larger 7 tube cell still in the works.
Quote from: keithturtle on June 05, 2007, 01:34:00 AM
Welcome, magnetar;
Jest a friendly warning, magnetar. Handle with care.
keith
Thanks for the info, Keith. Im not too open to the idea of having HHO in an enclosed container with pressure in it without a spark arrester if any ignition tests are perfromed in an experiment. I assume that HHO does not need to be mixed with an external source of oxygen to ignite since the oxygen is contained within the HHO molecule.
Keithturtle, damn son.. you've got some rigging going on there man, looks like you could be making white lightening.. LOL.
j/k, nice setup sir... keep them sparks to a minimum...
-rapttor
Quote from: IronHead on June 04, 2007, 10:51:52 AM
Thanks kokomoj0
3000 to 4000 liters per hour.
Thanks!
I did a little cypherin on this just to better visualize the whole thing for auto use.
Here are the assumptions i made.
at 0 psig 1 gallon of water = 224 cubic feet of steam and 224 cubic feet of steam = 6275 liters of steam again at 0 psig.
So i am "guessing" and maybe someone can verify this for me, that if 1 gallon of water would produce roughly 6200 liters steam it would produce roughly the same amount of HHO @ 0 psi also?
So thinking along those lines if i am correct then 2 gallons of water would run a 6 liter car for 3+ hours or roughly .667 gallon per hour would be the burn rate. Then at 75 MPH highway speed it sounds like we could expect roughly 225 miles for 2 gallons of water or about 100 miles per gallon of water running on HHO only.
Does that sound about right to everyone? If that is correct an 18 gallon tank of water would yeild 1800 miles per tank!!!
Sound about right? If it is correct then that should help everyone who wants to do the car thang correctly size their units once they decide which version best produces....
we can filler up in new york drive to la and filler up to go back to new york if i did my math right!!!
I am guessing here guys???
for mine i just used a 1/16th tungsten and 1/16th stainless with a 1/4" separation in a ball jar. Have 0 - 150 variac at 10 amps into a 100 - 240 vac transformer then a full bridge rectifier with negative connected to the cathode and pos to the stainless.
i seem to get the best results at about 130 vdc and it draws about 1.3 amps and the amps increase as temp increases.
i used distilled water that did nothing at first even over 250 volts applied, then i went to the medicine cabinet and got the vitamin jar out, smashed up a potassium carbonate pill, and put maybe 1/2 of a pinhead worth in a pint of distilled water and it took off immediately.
thivk white scum on top of the water and it got hot but took a very long time. timy bubbles on the tungsten large on the stainless. lit them and got pops.
It produces very slowly.
Just for an example I will use my vehicle, I have a 1987 chev s10 with a 1991 2.5l 4 tech. This truck needs 231.67 @ (180 to 1) liters of hydroxy to run at 2500 rpm for 1 min. That is A LOT OF HYDROXY. Lets nock this down another step. 231.67 divided by 4 (4cylender engine) that is 57.91 liters per min per cylinder. Now this is starting to sound a little better, still a lot of gas but what the heck (if you can do this efficient enough you just make four electrolyzers).
Lets try and make this a little more manageable. In order to get 57.91 liters of hydroxy gas how much water do we need? If you do the math you are looking somewhere in the neighborhood of 2.5 tablespoons of water per minute per cylinder.
If one gallon of water holds 4707 liters of hydrogen and 2353 liters of oxygen than 1 tablespoon of water is equal to 23.1 liters of hydroxy give or take.
My next cell I am going to try this out. Just making an electrolyzer that will only hold 1 -3 tablespoons of water at a time. Should be fun but the only way I will know if it will work or not is to
just build it............
Quote from: kokomoj0 on June 05, 2007, 12:22:32 PM
Quote from: IronHead on June 04, 2007, 10:51:52 AM
Thanks kokomoj0
3000 to 4000 liters per hour.
Thanks!
I did a little cypherin on this just to better visualize the whole thing for auto use.
Here are the assumptions i made.
at 0 psig 1 gallon of water = 224 cubic feet of steam and 224 cubic feet of steam = 6275 liters of steam again at 0 psig.
So i am "guessing" and maybe someone can verify this for me, that if 1 gallon of water would produce roughly 6200 liters steam it would produce roughly the same amount of HHO @ 0 psi also?
So thinking along those lines if i am correct then 2 gallons of water would run a 6 liter car for 3+ hours or roughly .667 gallon per hour would be the burn rate. Then at 75 MPH highway speed it sounds like we could expect roughly 225 miles for 2 gallons of water or about 100 miles per gallon of water running on hydrogen only.
Does that sound about right to everyone? If that is correct an 18 gallon tank of water would yeild 1800 miles per tank!!!
Sound about right? If it is correct then that should help everyone who wants to do the car thang correctly size their units once they decide which version best produces....
we can filler up in new york drive to la and filler up to go back to new york if i did my math right!!!
for mine i just used a 1/16th tungsten and 1/16th stainless with a 1/4" separation in a ball jar. Have 0 - 150 variac at 10 amps into a 100 - 240 vac transformer then a full bridge rectifier with negative connected to the cathode and pos to the stainless.
i seem to get the best results at about 130 vdc and it draws about 1.3 amps and the amps increase as temp increases.
i used distilled water that did nothing at first even over 250 volts applied, then i went to the medicine cabinet and got the vitamin jar out, smashed up a potassium carbonate pill, and put maybe 1/2 of a pinhead worth in a pint of distilled water and it took off immediately.
thivk white scum on top of the water and it got hot but took a very long time. timy bubbles on the tungsten large on the stainless. lit them and got pops.
It produces very slowly.
Hi Guys.
Just checking in to let you all know I'm still here on the project. I havnt bailed or anything. I have my little cell built to the specks and plates charged one by one in spring water. I have the same as most of you with a bit of HHo production. not pulling huge ampes or anything. redy to carry on. Id like to post pics but i'll need another camera, I will get one soon. Moab.
"Wagons HHO". It's a John Wayne thing. ::)
Quote from: kokomoj0 on June 05, 2007, 12:22:32 PM
So i am "guessing" and maybe someone can verify this for me, that if 1 gallon of water would produce roughly 6200 liters steam it would produce roughly the same amount of HHO @ 0 psi also?
So thinking along those lines if i am correct then 2 gallons of water would run a 6 liter car for 3+ hours or roughly .667 gallon per hour would be the burn rate. Then at 75 MPH highway speed it sounds like we could expect roughly 225 miles for 2 gallons of water or about 100 miles per gallon of water running on hydrogen only.
Does that sound about right to everyone? If that is correct an 18 gallon tank of water would yeild 1800 miles per tank!!!
Im a bit confused. You mention HHO and then you mention Hydrogen only. Is your goal to run a vehicle purely on HHO? If so, I read that a vehicle went 100 miles on HHO and used 4 ounces of water.
Quote from: magnetar on June 05, 2007, 06:09:29 PM
Im a bit confused. You mention HHO and then you mention Hydrogen only. Is your goal to run a vehicle purely on HHO? If so, I read that a vehicle went 100 miles on HHO and used 4 ounces of water.
Oh sorry... that is why i said i was only guessing.... i think IH's cell is used only for HHO... I sometimes get a bit loose with terminology, i know nothing about this and am trying to visualize things in my own personal style.
Thanks Kyle for filling in a few blanks for me... it gives me food for thought. Looks like i was off my a country mile on a couple things.
No i was going to run it off of the HHO.
Quote from: IronHead on June 01, 2007, 09:33:37 AM
The next steps are going to be on much higher voltage. Yeah I know that 2 volts or whatever is all you can put on each plate in a cell and then you get heat beyond that.
But if I put 200 volts at low amps to my cell and get 10 times the output of HHO at 150F* then you bet I will deal with the heat and in the long run the heat will be used to aid reaction once the cell is all closed up and running in a circuit .
This will be when there is a cooling circuit in place to condense steam and KOH back and return to the cell. We are not there yet. So for those that have Variacs we want to see the effect as we turn up the voltage in straight water.
This is going to help understand the steps that will be taken in controlling amp dump, where we use volts instead of amps to get high output. The amps will go up as you do this ,but We will be talking about restricting those amps using magnetic fields ie chokes. Your are going to need a 300 volt Full bridge rectifier and a minimum 220AC output variac.
This step is for an HV-HHO and not completely necessary to work with.
This is only for those that wish to get into into HV
For those that are not ready to do this just keep your eyes on what the rest are doing and learn while you are building your cells and testing the charge.
Things are going to start branching off into different types of cells, you choose which path to follow
There will be time to prepare for all of this.
I still want to hear from the rest of you and your cell progress including you guys that don't normally post.
i have 1000volt bridges
my variac is capable of 5 amp at up to roughly 280 volts via transformer, will that be enough?
Just tossing out some numbers for everyone.
With a 2.0 litre motor, @2500 Rpm, @60 miles per hour
4 stroke engine = 1. Litre per rev intake amount
at 50% throttle position 1. L X .5= .5 L
Volumetric engine eff.= 80% .5LX.8= .4L per rev.
@ 2500rpm X .4L= 1000L per minute = 60000L per hour
1 Litre water = 1800 litre hho
60000/1800= 33L liquid water per hour, per 60 miles
60/33= 1.8 litres per mile=6.8 miles per gallon
20 gallon tank X 6.8 mpg= 136 mile range.
So if an engine needs to be fed with only input from a HHO cell the cell would v to output 1000L per minute.
If HHO ca be diluted with atmospheric air and still create an energenic enough reaction to keep the engine running then of course the above numbers would change. But how lean will HHO go, or can it even be leaned out at all.
So you are calculating liter per cylinder volume , Try that with gasoline.
Hydrogen and Oxygen also is far more efficient than gasoline. But this math makes no sense. To do this your would need to know how much HHO and air is required to turn that engine at its max HP and torque per cylinder. Even if you meter gasoline and air and calculate this, the number will not be near what HHO and air would be.So first thing would be a cfm air calculation then a metered fuel calculation. Then comparing this to a volume of HHO
Its said that HHO burn with 2.5 times the power of gasoline. and this is without getting into para and ortho mixtures
So lets increase fuel efficient first and this will tell you what you need to go on.
I am not going to tell you guys that your going to run your cars on HHO alone ,but an 80% increase in MPG is very possible for you all. Of course you would start at maybe 20 to 40% .
But I will tell you that running an engine on HHO alone is possible and doable.
Its take alot of work to do this and alot of modification .
Quote from: kokomoj0 on June 05, 2007, 06:29:14 PM
Quote from: magnetar on June 05, 2007, 06:09:29 PM
Im a bit confused. You mention HHO and then you mention Hydrogen only. Is your goal to run a vehicle purely on HHO? If so, I read that a vehicle went 100 miles on HHO and used 4 ounces of water.
Oh sorry... that is why i said i was only guessing.... i think IH's cell is used only for HHO... I sometimes get a bit loose with terminology, i know nothing about this and am trying to visualize things in my own personal style.
Thanks Kyle for filling in a few blanks for me... it gives me food for thought. Looks like i was off my a country mile on a couple things.
No i was going to run it off of the HHO.
Well I am probably incorrect about HHO ( which I understand to be a subset of Browns Gas ). HHO may be level 2 of 3 levels. Level 1 is di-atomic Hydrogen and Oxygen, level 2 is mono-atomic ( one of terms used to describe it ) HHO and level 3 seems to be a mystery ( as far as disclosure to the internet and the public ). I have done some reading on the "Joe" cell and it may be a 3rd level or it may just be HHO. One of the characteristics of good Browns gas is that it implodes instead of exploding. There seem to be a lot of similarities between Browns gas and the gas produced by Joe Cells.
The implosion is when you have 66.6%Hydrogen and 33.3% Oxygen and only in that mix will it implode. Which is what most electrolisis cells will produce or release. As soon as you introduce air to this you have explosion because of the increased oxygen .The Nitrogen will slow the burn just alittle as well.
What the Joe cells is calling level 3 may just be the phnomanon of negative electrons in some strange state . I have heard everything from self firing and self running to floating a vehicle antigravity.
But I don't know much more than this when it comes to such a thing.
Quote from: IronHead on June 05, 2007, 09:01:53 PM
The implosion is when you have 66.6%Hydrogen and 33.3% Oxygen and only in that mix will it implode. Which is what most electrolisis cells will produce or release. As soon as you introduce air to this you have explosion because of the increased oxygen .The Nitrogen will slow the burn just alittle as well.
my 3.3 liter liter will get about 20 miles to a gallon of gas, so maybe reverse engineer it using a 13.9:1 mixture and caculate backwards how many cfm is needed? Use {calculated number}/2.5 to get the amount of hho? then use a fudge number for the horsepower to make the electricity to create the hho? i bet that wont work either without knowing the horsepower or torque or some constant to go with.....
Correct your 4 banger might be 80 hp and mine with the same displacement might be 160hp so you must know these numbers to even enter this arena. Mine might even be more fuel efficient .
You really dont know what you fuel air mix is so... man there are many variables in this .
A fellow in Australia that seems to be in the know about this has shown some video of creating a Joe Cell. They seem to be as cantankerous as hell sometimes from some of the material I have read. The plates are cylinders which make the materials harder to get. It is usually recommended to have 2 neutral plates in its design and they go the low voltage route ( 12 volts ) with around 4 plates total.
So far I know of 3 people in the world that have figured a working Joe cell based on pure phenomenology . Peter Stevens ,Alex Schiffer and Joe 3 out of hundreds that have build these things step by step. It is a long and endless battle it seems.
Quote from: IronHead on June 05, 2007, 09:22:40 PM
So far I know of 2 people in the world that have figured a working Joe cell based on pure phenomenology . 2 out of hundreds that have build these thing step by step. It is a long and endless battle it seems.
i like the concept of the joe cell but it seems like there is a lot of voodoo engineering attached to it...
Personally i am a fan of the brute force method, especially if it is possible to create a small positive pressure to the engine manifold which of course would act and perform like a turbo charger! woohoo!
I can tell you this . That you don't see real production till that bad boy is under vacuum . It will supprize the hell out of you. And vacuum is key when doing a full on HHO car , You need a mechanical vacuum pump in this case but thats the easy part. But don't look at the outrageous for now . Keep you build set on a fuel enhancer and mod from there.
Don't disappoint yourself before you get started by setting very high goals.
Here again this tread is to learn these things and link them together in the long run
Decrease your wants and you will be a happier person to build your needs.
IronHead
Quote from: IronHead on June 05, 2007, 09:32:35 PM
I can tell you this . That you don't see real production till that bad boy is under vacuum . It will supprize the hell out of you. And vacuum is key when doing a full on HHO car , You need a mechanical vacuum pump in this case but thats the easy part. But don't look at the outrageous for now . Keep you build set on a fuel enhancer and mod from there.
Here again this tread is to learn these things and link them together in the long run
That sucks. we need a vacuum pump too? Just kidding. so whats next?
Oh you need a lot of stuff if you want the choo choo to chug up the hill on water.
Don't be a stranger Moab , post!
Next start slamming HV to that cell I want to see what you guys come up with. And forget about the heat. Heat is an accuse Slam that cell with volts /amps let see what happens.. If you got 50 amps put it on there ! Wear a respirator/eye protection in this case with/without KOH in the cell and vent that stuff until we close it up. You are going to get alot of caustic vapor. Keep your face outa the cell!! Start burning some HHO
Some of you guys have built to spec if you have try taking out every other plate in the neutrals at HV. WITH THE POWER OFF:) If you have not built to spec well than you can't do this part can you. If you hit 200 volts take out all the nutrals lets see whats going on.
You will be building onto this cell soon so be ready you don't have the bottom ,upper chamber or top even built yet nor do you have the water injection chamber built. You have time
All new comers and and you guys that just got here from YouTube start on page 14
Decrease your wants and you will be a happier person to build your needs.
IronHead
Quote from: Moab on June 05, 2007, 09:42:26 PM
That sucks. we need a vacuum pump too? Just kidding. so whats next?
You can get plenty of vacuum from the engine. :)
You will probably increase the amount of gas produced because the pressure is reduced. Todays radiator systems have some extra pressure in them to keep the coolant from boiling. The opposite is also true. Reducing pressure allows the HHO gas to exit the water quicker which probably lets the electrolysis produce more to replace what is taken out of the water.
can we guess? LOL
taking the plates out i would think would decrease the gas and increase the amperage, i am testing myself to see if i understand any of this LOL
Quote from: magnetar on June 05, 2007, 10:26:54 PM
Quote from: Moab on June 05, 2007, 09:42:26 PM
That sucks. we need a vacuum pump too? Just kidding. so whats next?
You can get plenty of vacuum from the engine. :)
not if you floor it and open that butterfly all the way up! That part has bothered me because the result is inverse of what is needed!
we would need more vaccuum when more power was demanded so its backwards from what we need.
Quote from: kokomoj0 on June 05, 2007, 10:34:22 PM
can we guess? LOL
taking the plates out i would think would decrease the gas and increase the amperage, i am testing myself to see if i understand any of this LOL
I read that adding neutral plates produces more gas with less amperage. Im interested to see you post your results. ;)
Quote from: kokomoj0 on June 05, 2007, 10:36:48 PM
Quote from: magnetar on June 05, 2007, 10:26:54 PM
Quote from: Moab on June 05, 2007, 09:42:26 PM
That sucks. we need a vacuum pump too? Just kidding. so whats next?
You can get plenty of vacuum from the engine. :)
not if you floor it and open that butterfly all the way up! That part has bothered me because the result is inverse of what is needed!
we would need more vaccuum when more power was demanded so its backwards from what we need.
I suppose that depends upon where you feed the HHO gas into the engine. Are you trying to run the engine entirely on HHO or are you mixing it with gasoline and air?
What kind of engine do you plan to use this in? A fuel injected with O2 sensors?
Don't think , DO!
Then you will know
kokomoj0 we will get into the whole of vacuum in time. There is a way.
Vacuum chambers and plenum/throat loop I will show this as well.
We are not building what has been we are building what will be and the "has" will
be assimilated .
Stop thinking with the brain let the mind guide you
IronHead
Quote from: IronHead on June 05, 2007, 10:44:30 PM
Don't think , DO!
Then you will know
kokomoj0 we will get into the whole of vacuum in time. There is a way.
Vacuum chambers and plenum/throat loop I will show this as well.
i was a bad boy and built the tungsten one :)
Having fun out there in space kokomoj0 ? Now find your way back oh there is no wave guide to follow . Bummer you must have missed that page or it was not written yet. Hope you don't get burned going though the ionizer. Oh thats where again? The NS-T cell is much more complex than it looks :)
But you just might figure it out and create a whole new universe. It is very possible.
I better get some sleep before I get far to sarcastic.
Just messing with you man. I know you are with us. And you have
been an asset to this tread.
Quote from: IronHead on June 05, 2007, 11:02:06 PM
Having fun out there in space kokomoj0 ? Now find your way back oh there is no wave guide to follow . Bummer you must have missed that page or it was not written yet. Hope you don't get burned going though the ionizer. Oh thats where again? The NS-T cell is much more complex than it looks :)
But you just might figure it out and create a whole new universe. It is very possible.
I better get some sleep before I get far to sarcastic.
Just messing with you man. I know you are with us. And you have
been an asset to this tread.
yah but was i right???? LOL
You might be crazy but your not wrong.
I might have to deal with you on a whole different level.
and don't take that T-cell apart I got something for that thing.
I admit I leave much explaination in the calcs, but I figured the numbers would be understood. Heres an some corrections to some misunderstandings.
@IH I am not calculating 1L per cylinder, I wrote 4 stroke, in reference to an otto cycle engine, in which the piston takes four strokes per (intake,compression,power,exhaust) complete cycle, Which would mean that for every two rotations of a piston that piston intakes once. So a 2 litre engine would intake half its cylinders per rotation (note number of cylinders is not important, but lets just say it has 4), so if the engine was at wide open throttle and the cylinders completely filled themselves the engine would intake 1 litre. And to try it with gasoline, no problem 60000 litres of air equals 60 metres cubed (at 1.3kg per M3), which would mean that 78 kg of air ran through the engine, 78kg at stoich mixture (14.7 to 1) would be 78kg X 6% = 4.68 kg of fuel. And since gasoline weighs 6.3 lbs per gallon and 6.3 lbs=2.85Kg and 4.68/2.85 = 1.6 gallons of fuel.
So it would take 1.6 gallons to drive for 1 hour , whcih gets you 60 miles. Which would equal 37.5 miles per gallon, which for freeway driving with a 2L is exactly what you would get, at least I do. And the CFM calculation was in the previous post. The cfm for a 2L engine at 2500 rpm is 1000 litres, taking into account throttle position and cylinder fill volumetric efficiency ( how effective air from outside an engine can flow into the cylinder).
Now I did not put forth these numbers to say something could or could not be done. I put forth the numbers because they are fact, and this is the stage of the game that I sit at. I seen some people comparing steam to HHo production, and I just wanted to help them in their math.
I am curious (not being sarcastic) IH you said HHO is 2.5 times more powerful, can you give me the example by which that was tested, even if it a loose test, I would like to confirm it.
And as far as increasing fuel mileage, adding a vaporous fast burning fuel to a gas engine gets a lot more bang out of gas. And as far as modification, one note to all who try to burn different fuels in engines. Keep in mind, or learn, that different fuels work with different compression ratios and ignition timing. 87 Octane gas works well with 9.0 to 1.0 compression ratio and generally 10 degrees intial advance ignition timing, where as diesel works better with 18.0 to 1.0 compression ratio, and ignition timing is a function of the diesel injector, and propane likes 13.0 to 1.0 comp ratio and about 6 degrees intial advance ignition timing.
So if anyone gets to the point of actually being able to burn HHO in an engine, I guess they would have to understand flame propagations, combustion burn rates, piston speed, octane rating, ignition events, chamber fill, etc. Otherwise one could have a system all built and trying to run but since the engine hasn't been adjusted to run the fuel its being fed with it doesn't run or doesn't run well and therefore that person might think that it was something in their system that caused the problem when in fact it was just a couple adjustments.
@IH have you experimented with HHO/AIR burn ratios, like on a modified bunsen burner?
Well the difference between two motors of the same size, is going to have to do with comp ratios cam profiles, volumetric efficiency, amount of fuel that the fuel system can input into the motor, etc. But there are standards by which numbers can be closely approximated for stock type applications.
Quote from: IronHead on June 05, 2007, 09:18:26 PM
Correct your 4 banger might be 80 hp and mine with the same displacement might be 160hp so you must know these numbers to even enter this arena. Mine might even be more fuel efficient .
You really dont know what you fuel air mix is so... man there are many variables in this .
Wow!.. thanks d3adp00l that kinda made me dizy.
A few post back IH said to take some plates out, Now i feel a bit silly here, After Mr Pool's post, but what i see is the smaller bubbles seem to be rideing the elictric flow in the cell from one plate to another. It gives you an idea of how the current is flowing within the cell. Now with this lil tidbit i know where the leakage is. Is this the corect assumption Mister Ironhead?
@koko, what you said about opening the butterfly and decreasing vaccum, is correct but misleading. In that scenario you are comparing manifold air pressure to atmospheric airpressure. If the intake is a closed system to a cell then the vaccum situation changes, engine demands more volume, vaccum increases in the cell. But as pressure goes down water's boiling temp goes down also, to the point of being able to boil water at room temp. And since temp in these cells seems to want to run at about 150 degrees it would be very easy to be boiling water into the engine as well as producing HHO. So what would happen then, I wonder.
Quote from: kokomoj0 on June 05, 2007, 10:36:48 PM
Quote from: magnetar on June 05, 2007, 10:26:54 PM
Quote from: Moab on June 05, 2007, 09:42:26 PM
That sucks. we need a vacuum pump too? Just kidding. so whats next?
You can get plenty of vacuum from the engine. :)
not if you floor it and open that butterfly all the way up! That part has bothered me because the result is inverse of what is needed!
we would need more vaccuum when more power was demanded so its backwards from what we need.
It dosant boil like normal. Yes more bubbles happen.I know the fuel saveings are there. I have built a cell and put it in a car. It works. I think the point on this thread is to start small. I went from 19 to about 30, give or take. Is it possible to make an IC run and proform on HHO. Sure it is but the IC is not made to run on hho. it craves gasoline. what we need to do is start small and build to a better way of doing it. thats why we are here. Been alot of action on this thread today and we have covered more ground than our combined governments have in ten years. I guess we must do it. stop and think about it. if some So-called echo politition put as much time and money into makeing a better water cell as they did a more environmentally friendly unleaded gasoline. hell we would all be running on water. But i guess we are the ones that really do give a damn, we build and re-build. we share info and prospective. That is what is going to take to make a difference. guys like us looking for a better way, open source and free knowladged. And little by little we get better "Gas mileage" untill we dont need gas anymore. hey maybe even a better motor. I could go on and on. Just know the cell works and you will get better fuel saveings if you employ it. untill one day fuel will fall from the sky. Just Moby's .02
Quote from: IronHead on June 05, 2007, 11:34:36 PM
You might be crazy but your not wrong.
I might have to deal with you on a whole different level.
and don't take that T-cell apart I got something for that thing.
oh its just been sitting on the table waiting for all those broken bones of yours to heal! How is that coming along? Do you have full movement and will you have a complete recovery?
Quote from: d3adp00l on June 06, 2007, 12:06:36 AM
@koko, what you said about opening the butterfly and decreasing vaccum, is correct but misleading. In that scenario you are comparing manifold air pressure to atmospheric airpressure. If the intake is a closed system to a cell then the vaccum situation changes, engine demands more volume, vaccum increases in the cell. But as pressure goes down water's boiling temp goes down also, to the point of being able to boil water at room temp. And since temp in these cells seems to want to run at about 150 degrees it would be very easy to be boiling water into the engine as well as producing HHO. So what would happen then, I wonder.
Excellent breakdown on engine operation, that was very educational!
i think another thing to add to what you said too is that it is rpm dependant. i should have said it but it did not occur to me. if the engine is doing say 1000 rpm in high gear and you stomp the pedal to da metal because of the slow speed the vacuum will drop nearly to zero until the engine gets the rpms up to create more vacuum and then at some point as the desired speed is reached you will automatically let up on the gas starting to close the butterfly valve and that will also increase the vacuum to it normal operating vacuum.
So what i was trying to illustrate is that when you need the most vacuum you get the least.
Interesting thoughts. i think they have to remain an open system tho so we get hydrogen explosion instead of implosion.
i sort of had to chuckle while watching joe talk about his cell and he was saying that it was an implosion, thinking ot myself that every time it fired it would suck the valves open! LOL
I am healing ,
d3adp00l Very nicely done. Thank you
I will need to go over my docs on all the scientist that have studied and confirmed this 2.5 power thing . I will get back to you on that.Meyers also found the same thing . Let me dig into it.
Also in a final system water steam is condensed back to liquid and returned to the cell. Also the KOH is condensed. Fact is here not only do you get more steam and vapor from a vacuum but you also get much more HHO
Moab Yes current flow.
Quote from: IronHead on June 06, 2007, 06:09:44 AM
I am healing ,
yeh i know the feeling. i was in a car accident about 14 years ago and messed up my hand, and it took me nearly 3 years to get full movement back, i had to keep working and stretching it but it eventually came back...
These projects that you have going are going to be fun! i am giving that vqaccum thing more thought and it seems to me a person could use dual butterflies with different rates of opening/closing or set the valve so it can only open a bit since there is oxygen already in HHO. Or maybe the butterfly that is already on the vehicle and some kind of injector for the HHO.
Looking forward to hearing things to do with this T cell! i would like to build them both frankly at some point so i am looking forward to seeing what they can all do.
Which reminds me.... here are a couple things i have to share with everyone:
The self-ignition temperature of hydrogen is 550 degrees Celsius. Gasoline varies from 228-501 degrees Celsius, depending on the grade.
http://www.chem1.com/acad/sci/aboutwater.html
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/hbond.html
http://www.martin.chaplin.btinternet.co.uk/vibrat.html
http://www.martin.chaplin.btinternet.co.uk/abstrct.html
http://www.martin.chaplin.btinternet.co.uk/magnetic.html
The main site:
http://www.martin.chaplin.btinternet.co.uk/index2.html
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/enfuem/2006/20/i04/abs/ef060032t.html
Warm Water Vibrates for longer time
Dutch researcher Arjan Lock has investigated the behavior of vibrating water molecules. Using ultra-short laser pulses, he has found that hydrogen atoms in water molecules vibrate for a longer period of time at higher temperatures contrary to the majority of substances in which a vibration lives shorter at higher temperatures.
Warm Water Vibrates for longer time
Dutch researcher Arjan Lock has investigated the behavior of vibrating water molecules. Using ultra-short laser pulses, he has found that hydrogen atoms in water molecules vibrate for a longer period of time at higher temperatures. This is abnormal because in majority of substances a vibration lives shorter at higher temperatures.
Lock studied the OH-stretch vibration in water. He found that the lifetime of the OH-stretch vibration, a vibration of a hydrogen atom with respect to the oxygen atom, is extremely short in water, just 0.26 picoseconds (0.26 millionth, millionth of a second). The energy is then transferred from the OH-stretch vibration to a bend vibration in water.
At a higher temperature the lifetime of the vibration increases. This is completely contrary to the expected behavior because in the majority of substances, the duration of the vibration is shorter at higher temperatures. In water however, higher temperatures weaken the hydrogen bonds and as a result of this the lifetime of the vibration increases. After a certain period of time, the hydrogen atom will stop vibrating with respect to the oxygen atom and the vibrational energy will then be transferred to other movements. The time span in which that occurs is termed the lifetime of the vibration. If the molecule has a hydrogen bond, the frequency of the OH-stretch vibration decreases and the lifetime of the vibration changes.
The lifetime of the vibration is a measure of the strength of the hydrogen bonds. Hydrogen bonds are weak bonds between the hydrogen atom in one molecule and the oxygen atom in another molecule. These bonds bind the individual water molecules together.
Lock used a special ultra fast infrared laser for his experiments. This laser provides extremely short light pulses: 0.2 Pico seconds. As these are slightly shorter than the duration of the vibrations, they can be used to carefully follow the behavior of the vibrations.
In the experiments the researcher used two light pulses. The first energy-rich pulse causes the molecules to vibrate. With the second pulse Lock could examine how many molecules were still vibrating at a certain point in time after the first pulse. A water molecule that is still vibrating will not absorb the energy from the second light pulse. By measuring how much light passes through the water, the number of water molecules still vibrating can be determined.
The research was funded by the Netherlands Organisation for Scientific Research.
more:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part3/section-1.html
On the link below you have to collapse it then you can see the other pages:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.answers/browse_thread/thread/76d91051b45b836b
http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/News/2006/videos/H2_ICE_combustion.wmv
Hydrogen burn video
Download and view a 25-sec., 2.7 MB .wmv file of hydrogen burning. The movie starts with a spark inside the single-cylinder hydrogen internal combustion engine and shows the progress of the combustion. Brighter colors reveal higher combustions temperatures. Engineers use a round endoscope ? thus the round image ? to take data while the engine operates.
Image shows hydrogen burning inside an engine operating at real-world speeds
HYDROGEN BURN ? Argonne engineers are the first to capture hydrogen combustion images inside an engine operating at real-world speeds. The red and yellow images show the more intense temperatures.
For more information, please contact Catherine Foster (630/252-5580 or cfoster@anl.gov) at Argonne.
a couple things i stumbled across that i found interesting regarding water. may be of interest to you all as well.
Don't quote me but I think this is what meyers said;
"Eighteen microliters of a water droplet per injection cycle is all that is required to run the experimental dune buggy at 65 m.p.h. down the road. To run a truck, for example, it would take only 148 microliters of a water droplet to equal the on-road performance of the dune buggy, Meyer said.
Normally, gasoline has .5 pounds of hydrogen in it; whereas water has 1.7 pounds of hydrogen-or 2.5 times that of gasoline. Running a car under the Water Fuel Cell method, you would go 2.5 times farther than on gasoline".
Should we be comparing by weight or by volume?
Doesn?t matter really.
Just also want to say I have had little time to work on the cell.....bin busy designing a new carburetor for my truck....makes thing more difficult when it is a throttle body injection..
I hope to get to the NS-T cell but understand it must be replicated in exact ways.And if it goes boom it goes BIG BADA BOOM. Nothing like the RF cell but still it can blow parts off your body in an open state and in a closed state ,much worse.
Back to HV at 200 volts and about 50 amps you should have a cutting welding torch.
If you want to make a torch that does not need gas bottle replacement start here.
Other wise you are just observing the effect of volts/amps matters.
This also includes the little buzz you are getting from running AC through a rectifier without a smoothing cap.
Quote from: IronHead on June 06, 2007, 03:56:08 PM
I hope to get to the NS-T cell but understand it must be replicated in exact ways.And if it goes boom it goes BIG BADA BOOM. Nothing like the RF cell but still it can blow parts off your body in an open state and in a closed state ,much worse.
Like the 5th element! LOL yeh i was thinking about that too.... like getting a bunnch of 1/16th rods and making a 7 x 7 plate with them just to mess around but instead i figured i would wait till you are ready to teach it :)
Hi guys ,
nice forum!
great thread!!!
@Ironhead:
can you explain what went wrong with your RF setup so we know were to
stay away from ? :o
I have been fooling around with HF pulse generators on my cell , dangerous to?
(and planning to use a satelite LNB as transmitter in my cell........... :P)
I will be ordering some SS later this week and build me some neutralplate cell ,
when thats ready i will post some bouble pic's.
@d3adp00l
Let's calculate with a car at normal cruising speed ,
first with gasoline then converted to hydrogen
consumpsion ;
Air weights 1,3grams/liter
gasoline weights 720grams/liter
ratio=553
amount of air per liter fuel:
air/fuel=1:14.7
14,7 x 553 = 8129 liter air per liter fuel
2liter engine
1:10 (10 kilometers/liter fuel milage)
speed 100kmh
10km each 6 minutes/ 1 liter fuel each 6 minutes
8129 liter air per liter fuel (every 6 minutes at 100kmh) ,
1354 per minute ,
22,5liters air each second.
Asume a 4% to 74% hydrogen to air usage;
(2/3 of hydroxy contains hydrogen)
amount of hydroxy a second (increasing power)
at 4 % 1,4 liter
8 % 2,7 liter
12 % 4,1 liter
16 % 5,5 liter
20 % 6,8 liter
24 % 8,2 liter
28 % 9,5 liter
32 % 10,9 liter
36 % 12,3 liter
40 % 13,6 liter
etc.
Sound fair ???
Quote from: popeye68 on June 06, 2007, 06:09:32 PM
Hi guys ,
nice forum!
great thread!!!
@Ironhead:
can you explain what went wrong with your RF setup so we know were to
stay away from ? :o
Welcome to the forums
popeye68Yes experimenting wit RF itself is where it went wrong. No using to much water is where it went wrong. I knew better than to fool with 2 oz of water at a time. If you mess with RF treat is like a stick of dynamite and use drops not onces .
If you cold vaporize the water it will go boom when you hit the right RF Feq.
aslong as your gun is made right.
And never do RF in a photon light chamber in UV or IR with alot of water.
LNB , for RF you will need to build a multichannel transducer to sweep the range
Make sure you put a receiver on this thing and you know why.
That should be enough to keep you busy, kill you or bring MIB around.
Thats all I will post about this subject , for now.
i wonder if we can simplify this by just using gas mileage as a reference to get us real close?
i get 20 miles to the gallon at 80 mph with gas.
So 1 gallon of gas will take me 20 miles.
How many liters of HHO at 0 psig = 1 gallon of gas? (and will take me 20 miles)
Quote from: IronHead on June 06, 2007, 06:38:30 PM
Welcome to the forums popeye68
Yes experimenting wit RF itself is where it went wrong. No using to much water is where it went wrong. I knew better than to fool with 2 oz of water at a time. If you mess with RF treat is like a stick of dynamite and use drops not onces .
If you cold vaporize the water it will go boom when you hit the right RF Feq.
aslong as your gun is made right.
And never do RF in a photon light chamber in UV or IR with alot of water.
LNB , for RF you will need to build a multichannel transducer to sweep the range
Make sure you put a receiver on this thing and you know why.
That should be enough to keep you busy, kill you or bring MIB around.
Thats all I will post about this subject , for now.
sounds like i should think about blowing the dust off of my 2kw antique tube linear amp and dig out the ham transmitter and use this puppy as a tank load :) Just enough to tickle it!
Maybe the 100 watt kicker amp is enough...
This should get VERY interesting! i better build myself a bomb shelter first! LOL
For that 2.o litre engine I would say you weren't getting very get fuel economy, 10L/km is 23 miles per gallon to put it into perspective for everyone, 6.5 l/km should be a little closer for a 2.0 L engine(depending on vehicle weight, if the 10 l/km car weighs alot it would be correct). The comparison of % of hydrogen to oxygen burnable range is usually stated for H2 and O2 and usually given in weights not litres, in other words 4% to 75% hydrogen to air by weight. But given the assumption you stated, and the figures you have for your engine the math is correct. Using a slightly different method, the one I used on the original post, I will run the numbers in the same fashion to give a range for everyone to see.
2liter engine
1:1612 (16.12 kilometers/liter fuel milage)
speed 100kmh
10km each 6 minutes/ .62 liter fuel each 6 minutes
5039 liter air per .62 liter fuel (every 6 minutes at 100kmh) ,
839l per minute ,
13.99liters air each second.
I can't see your math from here though each time I try to do what you did, I come up with different numbers, but I think I can see what was intended;
(air per second) X ( % of hydrogen/.6666) or:
13.99 X (.04/.6666) = 13.99 X .06 = .839 litres per sec hho gas needed
amount of hydroxy a second (increasing power)
at4%(hydrogen=6%HHO) ,839 liter
8 % 1,68 liter
12 % 2,5 liter
16 % 3,39 liter
20 % 4,24 liter
24 % 5,09 liter
28 % 5.93 liter
32 % 6,78 liter
36 % 7,63 liter
40 % 8,48 liter
Funny thing about this math is at 66% you have to put in 13.99 litres of hho, which is the intake amount of the engine, above 66% you have to put in more HHO than the engine is intaking. And that doesn't make any sense to me. At 66% hydrogen you would have 100% HHO gas and no intake air. That is interesting I just made O/U in math by making 66%=100% of something, heh pretty good. In reality 40% hydrogen (in the HHO gas) would be 60.6% of the total volume of the intake (20.6% is the oxygen mixed in the HHO gas) and 39.4 % is intake air. Using HHO gas you could never get 75% of the intake to be hydrogen from HHO gas. Pure HHO limits the ratio to 66% hydrogen to oxygen, with no inert gase in the mix (atmospheric nitrogen).
I want to say this to everyone but most to IH these numbers are to give everyone working on cells a working concept of gas production needs for IC engines, it is not to discourage anyone or to encourage anyone to hook cells up to engines. It is a fact that pure hydrogen combusts with a lot more force than the hydrogen that is released from hydrocarbon based fuels. hydrocarbon fuels are not very efficient in combustion. They must break the carbon bonds before the hydrogen can be burnt with oxygen. And before that the fuel must be vaporized using heat and pressure inside the chamber. Those two reactions are a negative component to the overall reaction taking energy out, only after that is done can the hydrogen be used to add energy in. In other words if hydrogen has an energy capability of 10 units and 4 units are used to vaporize fuel and break bonds, you end up with 6 work units going to the engine. With hho all 10 hydrogen energy units go to the engine. Most engines can't handle an increase in work energy and stay in one piece. Please do not let this info distract you from what IH is trying to show everyone, and please to not get too far ahead of yourself. It is important to understand the power available when hydrogen is released.
Now I am going to let my head blow off pressure, before it pops off my shoulders, doing conversion calcs always gives me a headache.
Let's calculate with a car at normal cruising speed ,
first with gasoline then converted to hydrogen
consumpsion ;
Air weights 1,3grams/liter
gasoline weights 720grams/liter
ratio=553
amount of air per liter fuel:
air/fuel=1:14.7
14,7 x 553 = 8129 liter air per liter fuel
2liter engine
1:10 (10 kilometers/liter fuel milage)
speed 100kmh
10km each 6 minutes/ 1 liter fuel each 6 minutes
8129 liter air per liter fuel (every 6 minutes at 100kmh) ,
1354 per minute ,
22,5liters air each second.
Asume a 4% to 74% hydrogen to air usage;
(2/3 of hydroxy contains hydrogen)
amount of hydroxy a second (increasing power)
at 4 % 1,4 liter
8 % 2,7 liter
12 % 4,1 liter
16 % 5,5 liter
20 % 6,8 liter
24 % 8,2 liter
28 % 9,5 liter
32 % 10,9 liter
36 % 12,3 liter
40 % 13,6 liter
etc.
Sound fair ???
[/quote]
@koko based what I can figure, running pure HHO (mind you these are volume calcs, HHO very well could yield more power than gas and therefore require less volume in an engine to do the same work) you would get about 6 mpg water, at a conversion rate of 1 gallon of water to 1800 gallon (0 psi same temp) HHO gas, you would have to create 6000 gallons HHO.
However I need colaboration data on water volume to hho gas volume rates. When it is possible can someone (or multiple) use a test sample of water, and capture a volume of gas so that a baseline expansion conversion can be agreed upon.
Guys, a good place for info & ideas also to see some variations on what we are doing here, check this out... if this is a repost, sorry:
Some of the cells these guys have built are works of art.
http://blog.waterforfuel.com/ (http://blog.waterforfuel.com/)
-rapttor
The same fuel in gasoline that makes your car go is the same fuel that is in water,
Hydrogen . There is 2.5 times more hydrogen in water than there is in gasoline.
And there is much more oxygen in water as well. Oxygen is a fuel enhancer ?
Hi ,
some guys trying to get an engine running on pure hydroxy.
Well , i tryed many times to ignite pure hydroxy in an enclosed
space (big syringe) an failed...
Then i pulled some external air in and...BAMM!.
I like the way Roy Mcallister does it , open throttle and very lean
mixture of hydrogen.The more hydrogen the more rpm's.
Should work the same with hydroxy.
http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=3969805065592886041&q=multi+fuel
and some nice explanation;
http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-3755713800161578572&q=multi+fuel
excellent video clips!
it does bring into question certain points tho.
So it appears all we need to do is supply the hydrogen and let the air freeflow into the engine controlling the speed with the amount of H2 input.
Now they are not running a vacuum on that manifold which may be why IH said we need a vacuum pump instead of using manifold vacuum to aid in pulling off the hydrogen.
Seems like a few hurdles to overcome to go choo choo LOL
So i am thinking that maybe we need to run a seperate vacuum pump as IH said and i wonder if it would not be advantageous to somehow seperate the the H from the O and run only the h to the engine or run them through separate tubes to the engin maybe?
That tubing was quite small, than have a tank of compressed hyd for emergency.
Unless we can make enough gas without the vacuum and actually create the 5 pounds of pressure? So many questions! lol
Cant wait till we get started on that T cell! That engine did respond nicely!
You will take a major performance hit without oxygen. So HHO is what this is about.
A vacuum pump will give you the vacuum you need on one side and the pressure you need on the other, Mechanical is the way to go as when the engine stops so does the HHO flow. We want no failing in this area like you might see with electric pump and there electronics failing to the point of filling a non running engine with HHO, very bad.
Also you could not do straight H or HHO in a combustion engine without major timing changes as you saw in the video or should have. So we will not be doing this. We will be altering the HHO itself to closer match the burn time of gasoline.
So who is doing HV right now and what are your results so far?
Who here has a car that a cell could be installed in as a fuel enhancer if you had one?
Quote from: IronHead on June 07, 2007, 08:44:23 PM
You will take a major performance hit without oxygen. So HHO is what this is about.
So who is doing HV right now and what are your results so far?
Who here has a car that a cell could be installed in as a fuel enhancer if you had one?[/b]
i did the hv on the t cell and it just got hot woth a white scum, lots of surface tension, used 1 tiny pinhead of potassium carbonate as elctrolytic agent.
i would not hesitate to put one on my personal minivan, (in the summertime) LOL, but unfortunately i made the t cell.
All i have to do is call dodge up and get the parameters to change the electronic ignition and the black box to go with it, then pop the manifold off regap the plugs and we are good to go.
Show me your T cell. I want to see the cell itself.
Quote from: IronHead on June 07, 2007, 09:53:01 PM
Show me your T cell. I want to see the cell itself.
i do not have a photo, one is an acrylic square box and uses 1/8 stainless tube and 1/16 stainless tungsten running parrellel 7" long supported on both ends to insure physical stability with about a 1/4 inch spacing between the tungsten and the stainless and is submersed horizontally about 1" under the surface.
i have a second that is a mason jar and they have 1/8" spacing parrallell and are vertical and come out of the water, likewise supported on both ends for stability.
They do produce but nothing like your vidoe
volts/amps ? any pulsing at all even from a rectified AC source ?
Quote from: IronHead on June 07, 2007, 10:44:54 PM
volts/amps ? any pulsing at all even from a rectified AC source ?
no pulsing just unfiltered rectified dc source directly off the bridge up to 400 volts and up to about 2 amps. i used distilled water with a pinhead of potasium carbonate to about a quart.
when it is cool it does virtually nothing and when it gets up closer to boiling it starts to take off an i get a max bubble size of maybe 1/2 the size of a dime.
they do pop nice tho just very little output. i did not try any other electrolyte in the distilled water.
HI guys, my cell developed a leak. It is taking time to correct. I got a variac off ebay which will be here soon, but I'm running the 220 wiring for it now. I'm building a booster for one of the cars just to see the effects of H, and to play with timing a little and gas management. I have two Toyota mr2 with the same engine (1.6 L) that I plan to use for testing. I have relocated the battery to the front trunk so that I have plenty of room in the engine compartment to play with.
Can use electric fuel pump if you add a switch to oil pressure. When oil pressure is zero - because the motor is off - then the switch is off - switch is about $12 at Summit Racing. Use relay if you need more current capability than switch can handle.
(This is popular setup for boats - ;) )
Very true , a good setup Grumpy as long as the switch does not fail and stay in the closed position. It does not take much to blow the manifold off your engine if full of HHO.
Here are some hard facts to look at and it is very well presented
You be the judge (this will take about 1 hr and 11 min)
This is a link to a Google video, watch it before it is removed!
Copy and paste the link below into your web address bar
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5386487651203625811
This video is about 9/11 and should be seen by all!
If you are convinced by this please forward this to all your friends and family
Another good one:
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=5808928127721918445
Thank you bornman88 and hartiberlin
These are the resigns we must start rebuilding our world our lives.
We can not count on the Corps and Govs any more . They have gone insane.
We must go back to the times of when we relied on ourselfs , family's and friends
to survive.
@ IronHead;
My test vehicle is a Mercedes benz 240 D, normally aspirated 4 cyl diesel.
My purpose there is to gather real numbers on the addition of HHO and actual performance data.
I have several folks in the trucking industry ready, willing and able to fit this equipment on their straight trucks and semis, once some idea of performance is realized in testing.
Gasoline equipment includes new and used small engines, a 13 hp 5.5kW genset and hopefully soon an older Saturn sedan.
Still building and testing cells, and the lab and shop is only partially set up.The disorganization is gobbling up profane amounts of time.
Keith, acting more like a turtle.
About that vacuum pump;
I have one of these sitting on the shelf
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007060819394962&item=16-1139&catname=electric
Haven't hooked it up yet but it'll probably do the job.
Depending on how much negative pressure is needed, a ram air venturi in the air intake may work. The comment earlier about manifold vacuum as a function of throttle plate position is important... as long as the engine is running, there is vacuum available in the air snout.. and the faster, the greater.
Keith
Hi All,
really please watch these videos form Roy Mcallister and Steve Harris:
http://video.google.de/videosearch?q=Hydrogen+Fuel+Car+and+MultiFuel&so=0
They are really very good !
The question still is, how do we produce the Terpine cheaply via
converting woodgas and destillation ?
How does this exactly work ?
Roy Mcallister mentions, when he drives in his car, that he uses Terpine in his
car helped with a bit of hydrogen.
If Terpine can be cheaply selfmade from destillation
of woodgas or biomass destillation, this would be ideal to store
the fuel as a liquid Terpine..
Then you don?t have the problems to directly drive via woodgas
and fiddle around before start to get the wood burning...
Regards, Stefan.
Especially this video is very important,
cause he shows an actual ride in a homemade "terpine"
fueled car with hydrogen boost.
http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=4463667203960833886
Can all be selfmade !
So how do we produce this homemade fuel Terpine" the easiest way ?
The car has a 700 miles range !
Incrediable !
Regards, Stefan.
Something simular to this,
but without burning the gases, just to condense them to Methanol or
Terpine ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYA-Er2zmbE
How good does the condensation process work and
how much fluid fuel could you get out of it when using
such a pepsi can full of sawdust?
Regards, Stefan.
Hi IronHead ,
two questions;
How much vacuum (approx.) on a cell to have any effect ,
i was thinking on first using an old vacuum-cleaner blower.
Using the same diameter tubing to the cell , rebuild the output
side a little. Just to see the difference with or without...
Would the plastic blower create static discharge you think :o?
You spoke of learning us to trick the O2-sensor , in the Magdrive video's
this guy say's the computer is adjusting the fuel-injectors leaner automatictly.
Does it depents on the type of ecu?
thanks
Quote from: hartiberlin on June 08, 2007, 08:58:41 PM
Especially this video is very important,
cause he shows an actual ride in a homemade "terpine"
fueled car with hydrogen boost.
http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=4463667203960833886
Can all be selfmade !
So how do we produce this homemade fuel Terpine" the easiest way ?
The car has a 700 miles range !
Incrediable !
Regards, Stefan.
Its biofuel. he talks about mixing biofuel (carbon) with hydrogen.. Apparently algae is a good source
http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=47237
Ok , An O2 sensor is nothing but a temperature sensor. It takes the temperature of the exhaust and feeds that to the computer. The computer adjusts the injectors based on this info to maintain optimal burn temps. HHO as a fuel enhancer runs at a different temp altogether . You engine will still run with no modification to this sensor but for economy purposes we do this. It will be a good idea to mod this O2 signal so that it matches to the signal before the HHO was introduced.
Any vacuum is good vacuum
Quote from: kokomoj0 on June 09, 2007, 05:44:42 PM
Quote from: hartiberlin on June 08, 2007, 08:58:41 PM
Especially this video is very important,
cause he shows an actual ride in a homemade "terpine"
fueled car with hydrogen boost.
http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=4463667203960833886
Can all be selfmade !
So how do we produce this homemade fuel Terpine" the easiest way ?
The car has a 700 miles range !
Incrediable !
Regards, Stefan.
Its biofuel. he talks about mixing biofuel (carbon) with hydrogen.. Apparently algae is a good source
http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=47237
I think they meant Terpene or Terpine( German Terpentin),
which is destilled from woodgad.
So heat wood or pines and extract the produced gas and cool it down,
so it will give you Terpentin or Methanol ?
This then mixed with hydrogen will get a very good fuel.
But you are right, algae have a very nice energy production as
biomass fuel and nutrition stock and food stock.
Also it can wash out heavy metals fromyour body and remove
contamination with these heavy metals, especially if you had
Amalgans metals in your teeth !
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: IronHead on June 09, 2007, 07:15:29 PM
Any vacuum is good vacuum
Any recommended amount?
Do you have any advice to further my t cell? Do i have to start over? LOL
You should set it aside and build the cell from page 14 which is one module.
Did you see this one?
http://www.icestuff.com/~energy21/buerger1.htm
and someone tryed to replicate it allready?
Seems quiet unbeleivable...the low amps.
Quote from: popeye68 on June 10, 2007, 03:10:00 PM
Did you see this one?
http://www.icestuff.com/~energy21/buerger1.htm
and someone tryed to replicate it allready?
Seems quiet unbeleivable...the low amps.
Quote of this page
http://www.icestuff.com/~energy21/buerger1.htm
"Please note: WE know are led to believe the above results presented on this page are a fraud the email at bottom of page seems to give the reason why."
Here is the content pages
http://www.icestuff.com/~energy21/content1.htm
Around 15 inch's of vacuum is a good idol vacuum.
Quote from: popeye68 on June 10, 2007, 03:10:00 PM
Did you see this one?
http://www.icestuff.com/~energy21/buerger1.htm
and someone tryed to replicate it allready?
Seems quiet unbeleivable...the low amps.
i was not able to get that site to work.
Quote from: IronHead on June 10, 2007, 04:48:05 PM
Around 15 inch's of vacuum is a good idol vacuum.
Sounds like i really messed up that t cell huh? lol
i plan to build both including the cold fusion tesla turbine and stirling motor, possibly even the moray unit and if i get really bored the renerator.
So if we want to run using a vacuum pump instead of manifold vacuum what would you recommend?
i am thinking about setting it up with no butterfly valve and controlling the fuel to get that lean burn principle working for me as well.
You don't need a pump if you set it up like this.So that you get good idol and acceleration .About 15to 18"s at idol and 25 to 30"s hard acceleration .Use poly check valves for HHO.
For pressurized direct injection . If or when you can produce that much.
Use a solenoid gas handling injector with a voltage controller.
A 12 chamber NS-T system will work this way and alot of equipment to support the extraction of HHO
If you need to control the whole engine on full HHO. Build some of these types of injectors and I recommend the MegaSquirt board http://www.glensgarage.com/catalog/assembled-megasquirt-c-25.html
You can hook you injectors,pressure,O2,temp,flow,mass air sensors ... into this board
Quote from: IronHead on June 10, 2007, 05:22:29 PM
You don't need a pump if you set it up like this.So that you get good idol and acceleration .About 15to 18"s at idol and 25 to 30"s hard acceleration .Use poly check valves for HHO.
for a 6 liter about a 1/2 inch tube?
For a check valve are there any that use next to no pressure to open?
Quote from: IronHead on June 10, 2007, 05:27:21 PM
For pressurized direct injection . If or when you can produce that much.
Use a solenoid gas handling injector with a voltage controller.
yah because i think it was you who mentioned a separate vacuum pump would work well and then from that movie that hartiberlin put up a simple lab gas valve to control the idle and acceleration in a pressurized system where the speeed is controlled by how much hydrogen is alloed to enter the cylinder. so we have 2 ways to choose from that both sound very interesting.
Yes but you gota produce alot of gas to do what he was doing from a pressurized Hydrogen bottle at 3000psi. And you do not want to put Hydrogen and Oxygen in a bottle together.
Very unstable . Hydrogen without oxygen is fine though.
3/8" good for 4 to 6 liter.
This guy has the check valves
http://cgi.ebay.com/CHECK-VALVE-GAS-LIQUID-HYDROGEN-1-4-OR-3-8-PLASTIC_W0QQitemZ120130307327QQihZ002QQcategoryZ87087QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Got to try one of these too. I think this is a good idea for everyone once I test it , For the price it is worth the not having to build it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/PC-Interface-PWM-Control-Hydrogen-motors-and-More_W0QQitemZ270127740339QQihZ017QQcategoryZ78190QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Quote from: IronHead on June 10, 2007, 05:37:01 PM
Yes but you gota produce alot of gas to do what he was doing from a pressurized Hydrogen bottle at 3000psi. And you do not want to put Hydrogen and Oxygen in a bottle together.
Very unstable . Hydrogen without oxygen is fine though.
3/8" good for 4 to 6 liter.
This guy has the check valves
http://cgi.ebay.com/CHECK-VALVE-GAS-LIQUID-HYDROGEN-1-4-OR-3-8-PLASTIC_W0QQitemZ120130307327QQihZ002QQcategoryZ87087QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Got to try one of these too. I think this is a good idea for everyone once I test it , For the price it is worth the not having to build it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/PC-Interface-PWM-Control-Hydrogen-motors-and-More_W0QQitemZ270127740339QQihZ017QQcategoryZ78190QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Thanks for the links!
yeh that looks pretty good but i will have to email him for the full set of specs on it. it might make a good driver for a high power high freq output stage, if it goes high enough?
@Iron(ic)head
ok , i meant;
"Did you see this one?
http://www.icestuff.com/~energy21/buerger1.htm
and someone HERE tryed to replicate it allready?
Seems quiet unbeleivable...the low amps."
btw thanks for the checkvalve info
Quote from: popeye68 on June 10, 2007, 06:42:28 PM
@Iron(ic)head
ok , i meant;
"Did you see this one?
http://www.icestuff.com/~energy21/buerger1.htm
and someone HERE tryed to replicate it allready?
Seems quiet unbeleivable...the low amps."
btw thanks for the checkvalve info
You must be seeing a cached page because all I see is.
"Please note: WE know are led to believe the above results presented on this page are a fraud the email at bottom of page seems to give the reason why."
Quote from: IronHead on June 10, 2007, 07:18:31 PM
Quote from: popeye68 on June 10, 2007, 06:42:28 PM
@Iron(ic)head
ok , i meant;
"Did you see this one?
http://www.icestuff.com/~energy21/buerger1.htm
and someone HERE tryed to replicate it allready?
Seems quiet unbeleivable...the low amps."
btw thanks for the checkvalve info
You must be seeing a cached page because all I see is.
"Please note: WE know are led to believe the above results presented on this page are a fraud the email at bottom of page seems to give the reason why."
Yes, it was a confirmed fake.
This guy put it only together to fool some people.
He admitted it later.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi guys,
I did this test yesterday. It was 12V-12V-12V=36V, 8amp, ~190F.
It produced about 4.2L/min of hydroxy gas. It was stable after 10 min running.
Sorry! Wrong calculation. It should be 2.8L/min.
Quote from: IronHead on June 10, 2007, 07:18:31 PM
Quote from: popeye68 on June 10, 2007, 06:42:28 PM
@Iron(ic)head
ok , i meant;
"Did you see this one?
http://www.icestuff.com/~energy21/buerger1.htm
and someone HERE tryed to replicate it allready?
Seems quiet unbeleivable...the low amps."
btw thanks for the checkvalve info
You must be seeing a cached page because all I see is.
"Please note: WE know are led to believe the above results presented on this page are a fraud the email at bottom of page seems to give the reason why."
high frequency ac? That doesnt make sense does it. Meyers used high freq dc didnt he?
Quote from: alexleigh on June 11, 2007, 12:17:39 AM
Hi guys,
I did this test yesterday. It was 12V-12V-12V=36V, 8amp, ~190F.
It produced about 4.2L/min of hydroxy gas. It was stable after 10 min running.
kool with the cell on page 14?
yes, I followed almost the same on Page14
Quote from: alexleigh on June 11, 2007, 12:17:39 AM
Hi guys,
I did this test yesterday. It was 12V-12V-12V=36V, 8amp, ~190F.
It produced about 4.2L/min of hydroxy gas. It was stable after 10 min running.
Looks very impressive.
Did you use KOH in destilled water or what electrolyte ?
Many thanks.
I used spring water for charging at 12V followed by 24V and 36V. Then I added KOH to increase the conductivity and production. I also attached one 10000uF 50V polarised capacitor parallel to the batterties. I don't know wether it is useful or not but I forgot to take it away after batterties charging. I will try again to see the difference between the presence and absence of this capacitor later.
Thanks for the lead on that driver, IronHead... it'll run on my old comuter sitting in the closet. I'll probably also be getting an Inductor / capacitor meter to better get a grip on the values of my various cells. Got 90 volts worth of gell cells- run that through the mosfet, then to a torriod 100 to 1, then to a tank circuit on resonance, oughta get them volts into the upper atmosphere at least, no?
The electric turtle
Great work alexleigh A+
A computer is an option for the 30v buzz board it will also run stand alone
http://cgi.ebay.com/PC-Interface-PWM-Control-Hydrogen-motors-KIT_W0QQitemZ270127740540QQihZ017QQcategoryZ78190QQcmdZViewItem
This is one way to build a voltage multiplier .This is big volts but you get the idea.
http://members.tm.net/lapointe/Cockcroft_Walton.htm
Alexleigh, very nice. It seems to me that all those bubbles are filling the solution because the surface tension is holding them in the solution. By applying a vacuum the bubbles have an easier time getting out. Because we should use a bubbler to prevent flashback problems, we have problems getting vacuum to the cell. I am wondering if there might be other ways of breaking down the surface tension.
Some Data:
This is pure hydrogen not HHO:
Hydrogen is the lightest of the elements with an atomic weight of 1.0. Liquid hydrogen has a density of 0.07 grams per cubic centimeter, whereas water has a density of 1.0 g/cc and gasoline about 0.75 g/cc. These facts give hydrogen both advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is that it stores approximately 2.6 times the energy per unit mass as gasoline, and the disadvantage is that it needs about 4 times the volume for a given amount of energy. A 15 gallon automobile gasoline tank contains 90 pounds of gasoline. The corresponding hydrogen tank would be 60 gallons, but the hydrogen would weigh only 34 pounds.
In terms of energy contained, 9.5 kg of hydrogen is equivalent to 25kg of gasoline ( Peschka 1987). Storing 25 kg of gasoline requires a tank with a mass of 17 kg, whereas the storage of 9.5 kg of hydrogen requires 55kg, (Peschka 1987). Part of the reason for this difference is that the volume of hydrogen fuel is about 4 times greater for the same energy content of gasoline. Although the hydrogen storage vessel is large, hydrogen burns 1.33 times more efficiently than gasoline in automobiles ( Bockris and Wass 1988). In tests a BMW 745h liquid-hydrogen test vehicle with a 75 kg tank and the energy equivalent of 40 liters of gasoline had a cruising range in traffic of 400 km, or a fuel efficiency of 10 km per liter ( Winter 1986).
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/hydrogen.html
So it sounds like hydrogen burns 1.33 times that of gas.
I think that is naturally aspirated engine using air which would have more nitrogen and reduce efficiency though. HHO uses pure oxygen + a little more oxygen so it should be more efficient i would think.
Next I found this one:
Hydrogen does have some more significant drawbacks. One of the most difficult to deal with is that it is such a light gas! A pound of Hydrogen contains around 61,000 Btus of latent energy in it, which seems like a lot! For comparison, a pound of regular gasoline only contains around 20,500 Btus in it! Sounds good!
However, a pound of Hydrogen is HUGE! At standard atmospheric pressure and temperature, it takes up around 190 cubic feet of space. In contrast, that pound of gasoline only takes up about 1/50 of a cubic foot.
Consider a mid-sized car, traveling at 60 mph down an Interstate Highway. It is well known (and easy to calculate) that roughly 40 actual horsepower is needed to maintain a constant speed. A horsepower is equal to 2544 Btu/hr, so we are talking about 102,000 Btu/hr of "actual" energy/work. For an hour's driving, we would therefore need 102,000 Btu of output energy. (A gasoline engine would use maybe 3 gallons of gasoline during that hour's driving (20 miles/gallon) which actually contained about 378,000 Btu of energy, but the engine/car efficiency is only around 25% to create the 102,000 Btu of output work.) Consider now that a cubic foot of Hydrogen (not compressed) only contains 319 Btu per cubic foot. That hour of driving would therefore require over 1,000 cubic feet of the Hydrogen.
We can say this same thing in terms of "gallons". A gallon of gasoline contains around 6 pounds, or 125,000 Btus of energy in it. A gallon of hydrogen (gas) only contains around 40 Btus in it. Quite a difference! Instead of a two cubic foot gasoline tank (15 gallons) in your car, you would need a tank more than 3,000 times bigger, over 6,000 cubic feet, for the equivalent Hydrogen! That's a little more than TWO standard semi trailers (8'wide x 8'high x 45' long or 2900 cubic feet each). Pretty big gas tank!
Well, that is obviously not going to happen! So, the many ongoing explorations into using Hydrogen as a fuel always involve carrying HIGHLY COMPRESSED Hydrogen in very thick, heavy tanks. If you have ever seen the kinds of tanks used for the Oxygen for a worker's oxyacetylene cutting torch, that's the kind. Such tanks can hold Hydrogen at around 100 times atmospheric pressure, or 1500 PSI, an extremely high pressure (or even higher).
http://mb-soft.com/public2/hydrogen.html
Ok they say that 380 cubic ft of hydrogen gas = 1 gallon of gas.
gas = 20,600btu/pound = 128000btu/gallon
hyd = 61,000btu/pound = 122000btu/380 cubic feet @ 0psig
if HHO is roughly 66% Hydrogen and 33% Oxygen then HHO = 570 cubic feet of HHO = 1 gallon of gasoline.
Then 570 * 28 = 16000 Liters
1 gallon of gas = 16000 Liters of HHO
For 20 MPG at 60 MPH = 3 gallons per hour = 48000 liters HHO
48000Liter/Hour / 60 minutes = 800 Liters per minute of total HHO gas required to drive 60 minutes at 60 MPH in a vehicle that gets 20 MPG of gas.
Per alex's data:
100 watts per liter per minute.
that was 300 watts to get 3 liters per minute
So 100 watts * 800 liters = 80KW to produce gas.
So 80,000/746watts per horsepower = 107 horsepower to create hydrogen to pull a 40 horsepower load.
Based on alex's data and without vacuum we would have about 1/3 th eoutput needed to tool down the road on oure hydrogen
i wonder how much the addition of vacuum and whatever IH has up his sleeve will add to the efficiency?
Do my numbers seem right to everyone?
Does it matter at this point?
If you put hydrogen/oxygen in the car and it goes .
Bumble bees cant fly? Right
The bubbler design I have is under vacuum and also acts as a KOH condenser,Flash back arrestor, A vacuum canister , and a cooling system.
We will get to it .
GOOD JOB SO FAR GUYS
Bumble Bee (levitating with his anti-grav shoes):
Would someone please do the math for the picture above.
A goes to B, and B goes to CIn layman's terms:
Just Build it!!!
It's all about the vortex baby!
BUILT oops wrong bug!
She runs on HHO yeah BABY!!
Quote from: Grumpy on June 11, 2007, 04:51:27 PM
A goes to B, and B goes to C
In layman's terms:
Just Build it!!!
LOL
i built the tungsten one, but i think i did it wrong and will have to wait till we get that far :)
lime green? WHat an Uooooogly color
built and standing by!!! !!!So will we be pulsing at some point or using rf at some point? If so i will throw together a circuit for it.
anyone notice i have a thing for tungsten? :)
nice bug!
tungsten as in HV?
Fire it up!!! (not literally)
yeh i took it up to 400 volts and it did make more hho but got really hot really fast and ended up in runaway current and i blew a fuse
i do not get very good preformance out of it tho so i think i built it wrong
By the way, John Aarons is almost ready to put his new cell into his car and try to run it solely on HHO.
Look up his new Videos on youtube.com
kokomoj0
Yup you did , The NS-T cell is based on build and avalanche , Like a capacitor .
It must be pulsed, it must be choked , it must use a diode circuit and it must be built right. Pulse is one thing resonance of the vassal is another.
Aarons new cell at YouTube "Hydrogen Tap (Cell Production Answers) 110"
Looks just like the inside of a "Magdrive" to me. Also it appears that with out the sides closed in the voltage leak will be massive.
Some other guys messing around on my subscribers list.Working together on YouTube. Some veterans and some beginners.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=bornman88
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=H2earth
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=OMA1981
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=mozon1967
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=pochintwin
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Jameshotguy77
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=answerfreak
out of about 40 or so
Quote from: IronHead on June 11, 2007, 08:18:41 PM
kokomoj0
Yup you did , The NS-T cell is based on build and avalanche , Like a capacitor .
It must be pulsed, it must be choked , it must use a diode circuit and it must be built right. Pulse is one thing resonance of the vassal is another.
guess i better throw together a pulse generator
any sites i can look at to review it closer?
you are going to need a gen that can sweep in real time. Better yet I am going to write you an email on how this thing goes . You will ether hit it or not there is no in between on this type of a cell. NS-T
Give me a couple days or so and PM me your email . I would have much rather you started out like everyone else. The problem is that much of what I will put together for you you are not going to understand so this means I have to spend alot of time trying to teach it to you outside of the class.
Quote from: alexleigh on June 11, 2007, 12:34:27 AM
I used spring water for charging at 12V followed by 24V and 36V. Then I added KOH to increase the conductivity and production. I also attached one 10000uF 50V polarised capacitor parallel to the batterties. I don't know wether it is useful or not but I forgot to take it away after batterties charging. I will try again to see the difference between the presence and absence of this capacitor later.
I did once today and the capacitor couldn't help in the amount of HHO production.
Quote from: alexleigh on June 11, 2007, 09:27:13 PM
Quote from: alexleigh on June 11, 2007, 12:34:27 AM
I used spring water for charging at 12V followed by 24V and 36V. Then I added KOH to increase the conductivity and production. I also attached one 10000uF 50V polarised capacitor parallel to the batterties. I don't know wether it is useful or not but I forgot to take it away after batterties charging. I will try again to see the difference between the presence and absence of this capacitor later.
I did once today and the capacitor couldn't help in the amount of HHO production.
Yeah there is no capacitor in this cell. A cap would not help in this cell.
The cell that "kokomoj0" is talking about is a different type where the cell itself is a capacitor.
Quote from: IronHead on June 11, 2007, 09:36:56 PM
Yeah there is no capacitor in this cell. A cap would not help in this cell.
The cell that "kokomoj0" is talking about is a different type where the cell itself is a capacitor.
kool! i was not aware of that! So i can tune this pup to be a resonant current tank huh :) nice (wonders if they are liquid dependant or spacing dependant or both) and the effects of temp i bet changes it too. sounds like my kind of party. old ham radio antenna builder here :)
yikes,
Sorry! I have no idea on vaccum condition.
Ironhead,
What should I do next? I would like to put my cell into my jeep. Is it the stage to do this? I have a question on how to step up 12-14V to 36V with 300W in my car? Should I do more tests like pluse? sorry for many questions. Thank you!!!
This is for both High and Low voltage
Next will learn the effects of pulsing. and you can put anything in your car any time you want. But I do not recommend it at this point in time.
You will need a pulse source that will do from 0 - 50+ khz and 0-100% duty cycle to start out.
This gen must sweep in real time. You are going to send a vibration to the plates in the water and resonate the water in the tub. So there is no set number for this Frequency as all things will resonate differently . So you will need to sweep the Frequencies applied to the plates until you hit the the target resonance of the water in this cell. You will know as the HHO will rip off those plates like you never saw before.
Vibration is the source , Resonance is the outcome of the applied source .
If you do not have this equipment or do not know how to use such equipment ,Speak Up and I will led you to an easyer way.
There is going to be a gradient in the resonant magnetic field . Pay attention to every plate and how they reacted . How much HHO is extracted from the the water in the gradient. Take note
This discussion starts now
I am a little confused. I thought Stan Meyer was doing this, "Water Fracturing", without heating up the water. Conventional Electrolysis causes the water to heat by pumping large amounts of current into the water. According to Stan, he only needs 500 miliamps or 1/2 amp of current and what ever the voltage is. If you watch the video, "Equinox" on you tube, you can see that what has convinced them that it is a different way of breaking down the water is the fact that the water temp didn't change. Am I totally off base? Thanks for any help you can give me!!!!
Quote from: IronHead on March 08, 2007, 06:19:16 PM
It all starts with these videos I made up of a quick and dirty high voltage HHO
system to show a few people here on the forums. Well I did not think this would hijack another thread (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1500.130.html)
completely and attract so much attention.But it did , so here we are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnIJyNmI33U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoEXaNnBRPo
The HHO system is Hydrogen Oxygen production at 150F degrees 90VDC.This system is also pulsed. We will talk about that later as each build requires a different pulse to work proper. It is my belief that high voltage low current is required to break the bond of Hydrogen and Oxygen. At least on this level of production.This is a capacitor ,treat it like one when working with these voltages that can discharge rapidly.
It must stay at this temp (150F) or it will steam very fast so it must be cooled with radiator. This is why I am running the bench system for a shot time . If I ran it longer you would see steam billow " A hell of a lot in a very short time" from the canister.
So what you are seeing is a dirty quick build bench top version of the system I run in my vehicle.. I will soon be removing this system from my vehicle ,to remove and replace the Silver with Nitronic as the Silver is breaking down .
Do not use Tungsten in this system on the oxygen side, It will dissolve.
316 stainless is good ,and Nitronic Stainless is preferred method.
People are asking me how much gas is produced .I am no scientist I build what works for a given application. So the system in my vehicle produces enough for what I need it to do , get more bang for the buck on a big block 454ci engine.
BTW "Moab"great job you are on the top of my list of just do-ers . The "Just done it" list as it were.
You did it with out a zillion question about this that and the other scientific blah blah. Keep up the good builds
This is a very complicated system to run in a vehicle.
If you want something easy and that is proven ,buy a MagDrive
Just Build It
just do it!
IronHead
This has nothing to do with Stan Meyer.
Fact is your going to see alot more Hydrogen then you saw with Stan Meyer video of the tubes in the acrylic case and in a smaller format.
Now Stan did some amazing things beyond that video but for now this is what we are doing. These are experiments so everyone can see with there eyes and do the process from the ground up to learn . When done this little experiment will at least be a usable working system we can all use and move on to the higher end adding to what we build here in a modular way.
None of these voltages are written in stone. But they have there purpose.
IronHead
sorry, new here... Just wanted help. Didn't want to accuse anyone of anything. I do believe I am here for the same reasons, to rid the world of the blood sucking energy monopolies.
I was not barking I was just explaining what we are doing and I welcome you to the Forum. I try to be clear on these things as there is much confusion about different cell types.
This cell starts on Page 14
First of all the disclaimer:
This is not intended to say something can or can't be done, like everyone here I believe,hope, and pray that it can.
Next, response to Koko,
@koko absolutely great math homework, there are a million ways to run the equations, BTUs, mole calcs, energy density conversions, but the answer always comes out relatively the same. Mathmatically using only HHO it would seem that things can't be done. Seems being a key word. A major counterpoint to the math is there are a few videos showing engines running with alot less than a swimming pool worth of gas. And that is what gives me the hope. So like grumpy and IH say just build and see the results.
@ IH I am not saying that your extensive work in this area is not legitimate. It is your work in this area that again gives me hope. I would be joining in on this endeavor, however my lab is not really setup to run HHO production, and I would have to mothball years worth of work to get into it. I try to limit the number of projects or else I will never finish one. 1 done is better progress than 10 started.
The reason why I "softly bashed" you IH was honestly I had read the whole thread and didn't see anywhere that you intended to tell anyone what you had accomplished and how. However you have gone to great inconvenience (and pain) to explain your concepts, so of course, I retract anything negative in your regard. I, like everyone here have seen 99% frauds in areas of study such as this and when someone shows us something to good to be true, it is.
The battle that all of you fight is an up hill one, the math doesn't really support it, but the math isn't exactly based with the working gas. This in my opinion is one reason to pursue the concept. mono-atomic hydrogen isn't a subject that has a lot of data available, especially considering that the hydrogen present is in an unusual ionic version, same goes for the oxygen.
This is why I am still trying to gather burn data for hho with percentages of atmospheric air mixed in. Anyone out there who has built IH's cell design and could put a flow meter on it then connect a bunsen burner on it, to show us all how it burns would, (my opinion i understand) do a lot for everyone. Showing different voltages, the corresponding flow rates and possible difference in burns would be an area of work with these cells I have yet to find. Again IH I do not mean to detract from what you are showing everyone, I just think that it goes hand in glove with building this cell, to show a baseline to compare your more powerful (and much more dangerous) designs. and if IH feels that this pursuit is off topic I will gladly remove it.
Actually Meyer had an extreme amount of amps...He was using the cell as a capacitor. To put it simple once he exceeded the dielectric constant of water all that voltage in the capacitor collapsed. That collapse of voltage well is amperage.
simple terms....
Forgot to mention;
That is the key to making all this stuff work...Thats where I'm at...And thats why I'm here too learn the rest.
Quote from: MacGyver_1rjq104 on June 11, 2007, 10:46:35 PM
I am a little confused. I thought Stan Meyer was doing this, "Water Fracturing", without heating up the water. Conventional Electrolysis causes the water to heat by pumping large amounts of current into the water. According to Stan, he only needs 500 miliamps or 1/2 amp of current and what ever the voltage is. If you watch the video, "Equinox" on you tube, you can see that what has convinced them that it is a different way of breaking down the water is the fact that the water temp didn't change. Am I totally off base? Thanks for any help you can give me!!!!
Quote from: IronHead on March 08, 2007, 06:19:16 PM
It all starts with these videos I made up of a quick and dirty high voltage HHO
system to show a few people here on the forums. Well I did not think this would hijack another thread (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1500.130.html)
completely and attract so much attention.But it did , so here we are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnIJyNmI33U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoEXaNnBRPo
The HHO system is Hydrogen Oxygen production at 150F degrees 90VDC.This system is also pulsed. We will talk about that later as each build requires a different pulse to work proper. It is my belief that high voltage low current is required to break the bond of Hydrogen and Oxygen. At least on this level of production.This is a capacitor ,treat it like one when working with these voltages that can discharge rapidly.
It must stay at this temp (150F) or it will steam very fast so it must be cooled with radiator. This is why I am running the bench system for a shot time . If I ran it longer you would see steam billow " A hell of a lot in a very short time" from the canister.
So what you are seeing is a dirty quick build bench top version of the system I run in my vehicle.. I will soon be removing this system from my vehicle ,to remove and replace the Silver with Nitronic as the Silver is breaking down .
Do not use Tungsten in this system on the oxygen side, It will dissolve.
316 stainless is good ,and Nitronic Stainless is preferred method.
People are asking me how much gas is produced .I am no scientist I build what works for a given application. So the system in my vehicle produces enough for what I need it to do , get more bang for the buck on a big block 454ci engine.
BTW "Moab"great job you are on the top of my list of just do-ers . The "Just done it" list as it were.
You did it with out a zillion question about this that and the other scientific blah blah. Keep up the good builds
This is a very complicated system to run in a vehicle.
If you want something easy and that is proven ,buy a MagDrive
Just Build It
just do it!
IronHead
Quote from: MacGyver_1rjq104 on June 11, 2007, 10:57:06 PM
sorry, new here... Just wanted help. Didn't want to accuse anyone of anything. I do believe I am here for the same reasons, to rid the world of the blood sucking energy monopolies.
check this out;
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2057.0;attach=9542
thats alex's unit per page 14. these units are still in the preliminary stages and IMO they already get more HHO than stans did. may want to hang out because IH keeps pulling rabbits out of his hat so every time you think you get a lot of HHO he shows you how to get more.
d3adp00l Thanks you and keep watching I think a few builders will help with your data search in time. There are some very good builders here and analyst as well. Forget what I am doing ,lets see what the builders on this page are doing and they will set the standards. Then maybe start competition to go far beyond the standard set.
hkyle A+ absolutely right
IronHead
Quote from: d3adp00l on June 11, 2007, 11:13:02 PM
Next, response to Koko,
@koko absolutely great math homework, there are a million ways to run the equations, BTUs, mole calcs, energy density conversions, but the answer always comes out relatively the same. Mathmatically using only HHO it would seem that things can't be done. Seems being a key word. A major counterpoint to the math is there are a few videos showing engines running with alot less than a swimming pool worth of gas. And that is what gives me the hope. So like grumpy and IH say just build and see the results.
NO not at all! i was not trying to imply it would not work or could not work. to the contrary if you read back about some of the things IH said he was going to add like vacuum, pulses etc etc i knew there was much more to come! i suppose i should have been more clear, if you read in the doe report, he already is getting full cycle generation and burning in an ICE with better percentages than the doe states is possible for "just" hydrogen production alone!
i put that math up there as a reference for sizing stuff etc... math helps me to correctly get the sizes right first time out of th ebox. i hate ripping things down and starting over on projects so i always try to get them as close as possible to my application straight out of the chute and thought it may also help others to do the same.
deleted....
Just got back from the fishing trip...fun fun fun...anyway where are we...high voltage and pulsing. Got it...I need to acquire some components for the Meyer VIC...small things...But there is no way right know I can throw 400v @ 10 amps into a cell. I will hang around get the circuit together check in...Try and build a coil stuff like that. I just might pm you about the coil though...but let me try first.
Quote from: IronHead on June 11, 2007, 11:23:18 PM
d3adp00l Thanks you and keep watching I think a few builders will help with your data search in time. There are some very good builders here and analyst as well. Forget what I am doing ,lets see what the builders on this page are doing and they will set the standards.
hkyle A+ absolutely right
And your all going to crap your pants when I show you a 40,000 volt HHO system
But lets stay on the low low for now
IronHead
Then put 100vdc to the cell or what ever you have have and study it. then tell everyone what you found
EDIT me asap
@ Koko I didn't think you were being negative, the disclaimer and such was more for general knowledge, I was more just saying in agreement with you that from the outside it looks like the old school math says it won't work. The numbers are quite daunting at first. But the numbers involved with water never support comparison math with other chemicals. As I am sure you and in fact most of the people involved with this thread understand. Water doesn't behave like it should, its constituant parts and bonds make it unique, which is reason number two to believe that there is something to HHO. Reason number 3 would be the fact that it already is natures power source, reason number 4 would be that God wouldn't have put so much of it here if we weren't supposed to use it (number 4: yes some people would argue about that point, but these are just my points). The second half of that would be the air around us, but we'll get there later.
Ok... I know what you mean but his powersupply was not providing a lot of amps, correct? I was assuming that he was providing approx. .5 amps with high voltage. If we are going to take the approach and assume that Meyer was indeed using only .5 amps, we have to remember that power is power. If he is using only .5 amps then his voltage has to be extremely high. I was reading the patient information and he even mentions in there that the circuit could be as high as 20kv. I have a degree in Laser Technology, and I thought that his set up was a lot like a resonant laser cavity. That is probably what gave Meyer the idea to use lasers to improve the performance. Just a thought.
Quote from: hkyle on June 11, 2007, 11:16:07 PM
Actually Meyer had an extreme amount of amps...He was using the cell as a capacitor. To put it simple once he exceeded the dielectric constant of water all that voltage in the capacitor collapsed. That collapse of voltage well is amperage.
simple terms....
Forgot to mention;
That is the key to making all this stuff work...Thats where I'm at...And thats why I'm here too learn the rest.
Quote from: MacGyver_1rjq104 on June 11, 2007, 10:46:35 PM
I am a little confused. I thought Stan Meyer was doing this, "Water Fracturing", without heating up the water. Conventional Electrolysis causes the water to heat by pumping large amounts of current into the water. According to Stan, he only needs 500 miliamps or 1/2 amp of current and what ever the voltage is. If you watch the video, "Equinox" on you tube, you can see that what has convinced them that it is a different way of breaking down the water is the fact that the water temp didn't change. Am I totally off base? Thanks for any help you can give me!!!!
Quote from: IronHead on March 08, 2007, 06:19:16 PM
It all starts with these videos I made up of a quick and dirty high voltage HHO
system to show a few people here on the forums. Well I did not think this would hijack another thread (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1500.130.html)
completely and attract so much attention.But it did , so here we are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnIJyNmI33U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoEXaNnBRPo
The HHO system is Hydrogen Oxygen production at 150F degrees 90VDC.This system is also pulsed. We will talk about that later as each build requires a different pulse to work proper. It is my belief that high voltage low current is required to break the bond of Hydrogen and Oxygen. At least on this level of production.This is a capacitor ,treat it like one when working with these voltages that can discharge rapidly.
It must stay at this temp (150F) or it will steam very fast so it must be cooled with radiator. This is why I am running the bench system for a shot time . If I ran it longer you would see steam billow " A hell of a lot in a very short time" from the canister.
So what you are seeing is a dirty quick build bench top version of the system I run in my vehicle.. I will soon be removing this system from my vehicle ,to remove and replace the Silver with Nitronic as the Silver is breaking down .
Do not use Tungsten in this system on the oxygen side, It will dissolve.
316 stainless is good ,and Nitronic Stainless is preferred method.
People are asking me how much gas is produced .I am no scientist I build what works for a given application. So the system in my vehicle produces enough for what I need it to do , get more bang for the buck on a big block 454ci engine.
BTW "Moab"great job you are on the top of my list of just do-ers . The "Just done it" list as it were.
You did it with out a zillion question about this that and the other scientific blah blah. Keep up the good builds
This is a very complicated system to run in a vehicle.
If you want something easy and that is proven ,buy a MagDrive
Just Build It
just do it!
IronHead
Quote from: IronHead on June 11, 2007, 10:34:24 PM
This is for both High and Low voltage
Next will learn the effects of pulsing. and you can put anything in your car any time you want. But I do not recommend it at this point in time.
You will need a pulse source that will do from 0 - 50+ khz and 0-100% duty cycle to start out.
This gen must sweep in real time. You are going to send a vibration to the plates in the water and resonate the water in the tub. So there is no set number for this Frequency as all things will resonate differently . So you will need to sweep the Frequencies applied to the plates until you hit the the target resonance of the water in this cell. You will know as the HHO will rip off those plates like you never saw before.
Vibration is the source , Resonance is the outcome of the applied source .
If you do not have this equipment or do not know how to use such equipment ,Speak Up and I will led you to an easyer way.
There is going to be a gradient in the resonant magnetic field . Pay attention to every plate and how they reacted . How much HHO is extracted from the the water in the gradient. Take note
This discussion starts now
Yes, sir!
I need your help. After reading your messge, I would like to test on pluse DC system first. However, what kind of pluse gen. is good for me? Is that the one you posted on
reply #547. what thing should I pay attention? Thanks for your guidance! :)
I have some questions about the Brute Force HHO Starter referenced on page 14 of this thread.
Is it basically a positive plate, seven neutrals, one negative, seven neutrals, then one positive, powered with 36 volts?
Any high frequency pulsing? :)
Quote from: payson on June 12, 2007, 08:03:55 AM
I have some questions about the Brute Force HHO Starter referenced on page 14 of this thread.
Is it basically a positive plate, seven neutrals, one negative, seven neutrals, then one positive, powered with 36 volts?
Any high frequency pulsing? :)
yeh its positive on the outside plates, neg in center, with nuetrals, sealed sides etc. he is just getting into pulsing it now and various voltages but before you do all that you need to polarize it and go through a couple other phases in preparation. Its all in the text in previous posts.
So, I tore my variac down over last weekend, replaced all the wiring, which some looked almost original, alittle beefier guage wire, cleaned up the contacts... new switch, made up a heatsink for the FWBR, all mounted in a two-gang box, came out good, and stays alot cooler now.
Here's something interesting I noticed:
With distilled water, and just a pinch of lye(half dozen granules) I charged the unit all over again, since I drained and filled it with fresh water... 30mins @ 12, 24... etc.
Something was occuring around 40.8vdc, I was getting microscopicly tiny bubbles, with a fine vapour coming off the top surface of the water. the water got that charged look quickly..
Has anyone ever had it to this point, where the surface looks of liquid clear acrylic plastic? well, at a safe distance... stare at the bubbles on top... anyone else notice something maybe you noticed, but I've never seen happen before. The bubbles were moving in patterns of the field you are inducing but can't see....
Either that or my eyes are trying to tell me to GET SOME SLEEP!!
Ok, how do you ballast a MOT again? ...
-rapttor
@rapttor this might explain the smaller bubble sizes.....?? PG.30
@Ironhead...Yes I have thrown 120v to my cell...that was back on Pg. 29...been where I am ever since. Waiting for catch ups...
Quote from: IronHead on May 06, 2007, 12:46:24 PM
Bubble size.
Has to do with surface tension through the magnetic gradient.
The greater the field the smaller the bubble. The surface tension
is not the same in every cell cavity as the field changes through
the cell stack. If the field is very high you will see the small bubbles through
out the stack and a low field will produce the larger type bubbles . Somewhere
in the middle and you see both. In the cell I have shown the left side has less
resistance then the right side as there is loss at the connection points .So higher fields on the left and lower on the right in the picture on pg 29.
Here is a gradient chart of sorts to show this. This chart will be even more important to understand when we start vibrating this magnetic field causing a resonance in the cell cavities.
Yeah, I particularly noticed that upon starting when cell was at room temp, small bubbles (like a fog in the water, vapour rising from the surface). I left it running for 30minutes keeping tabs on the temp & my variac, as the temps went up, the bubbles got larger and larger until I was getting 20% small & 80% large bubbles. The rate at this point at which it's producing made me hold off on a "light it up test" since I do value the windows in my house, along with the one decent ear drum I have left.
(Too many metal shows when younger in combo with a fair share of NHRA events)
I wish I had a spare CDI ignition box, I've got a MSD 6A in my 70' vw bug, and it tosses out between 350 - 400volts to the coil at a high frequency... I'd like to try pulsing one with a signal gen... choke the source outputs... wait... that's what stanley did.. duh.
-rapttor
btw, in the meanie while... anyone have a good link to re-winding / ballasting a M.O.T. ?
alexleigh and anyone else that need a cheap pulser to get started
Yes that PWM Pulse Gen. has all the characteristics we are looking for ,For the price it is worth a try if you do not have a Pulse Genny. This is not the end all be all but should work very well for this application .
http://cgi.ebay.com/PC-Interface-PWM-Control-Hydrogen-motors-KIT_W0QQitemZ270127740515QQihZ017QQcategoryZ78190QQcmdZViewItem
Here is the guys store on ebay
http://stores.ebay.com/Chapp-Electronics-On-Line
Selectable Duty Cycle from 0-100 %
PWM Rate 500 Hz to 65 KHz in 1 hz increments
Runs from 3.5 to 30 volts DC
Delivers a mind blowing 20 amps @ 12volts @25C
HI There, was referred to this site by someone on Youtube.com, been reading this very long thread and printing it out for reading. Wow, about 150+ pages without graphics, so a lot of information here.
Looks like a little bit of reading took me a long way, I'll be watching from the side lines mainly, looks like everyone has it all under control :)
I have access to 304, not 316. Has anyone experienced any issues between 304 and 316?
Another thing, when creating these neutral plates, am I correct.. Should the spacing between these plates be isolated from the surrounding water?
Nice work everyone, Stan did mention the Power of Unity didn't he? I can see it now, "Internet Community Solves Energy Crisis Over Unity" :)
Keep it up!
Quote from: BasementExperiments on June 12, 2007, 09:04:27 PM
HI There, was referred to this site by someone on Youtube.com, been reading this very long thread and printing it out for reading. Wow, about 150+ pages without graphics, so a lot of information here.
Looks like a little bit of reading took me a long way, I'll be watching from the side lines mainly, looks like everyone has it all under control :)
I have access to 304, not 316. Has anyone experienced any issues between 304 and 316?
Another thing, when creating these neutral plates, am I correct.. Should the spacing between these plates be isolated from the surrounding water?
Nice work everyone, Stan did mention the Power of Unity didn't he? I can see it now, "Internet Community Solves Energy Crisis Over Unity" :)
Keep it up!
According to IH Nitronic is the best, then 316, then 304. Not sure anyone has had them running long enough to know but 316 has more nickel in it and thus less likely to corrode. People have been using it.
you want to seal the sides of the plates but not the bottom or top.
go to page 14 for drawings on construction
A little knolwedge is important and i hope some one has brought this up. SS has chrome in it and the first few times you run your unit to make hydrogen , There will be a small amount of yellowish color grime in the bottom. This is chromimum oxide that comes out of the SS. where gloves when handeling this material it is hazardous and will cause health problems! Disopose of properly. we want eyeryone around a long time. Have fun building and saveing. we need a Green World. Thank you IronHead for starting this thread, I've been playing around with this a while , I;m running a 460cid :) works for meee ....Mike.... now back to the TPU thread .
That'd be me, Glad you made it over B.E. There is a great deal of info here in this thread alone, I think you'll find that if you go back and re-read areas that you have already, you'll notice more or the info you are reading may click better. Even though I've read this thread countless times, I occasionally go back... and find things I overlooked somehow.
Well, back to work (work work... daily grind)... I'll post up some of my recent findings tonight.
I.H. - have you ever tested with Ni-chrome wire? It's funky...
-rapttor
Quote from: BasementExperiments on June 12, 2007, 09:04:27 PM
HI There, was referred to this site by someone on Youtube.com, been reading this very long thread and printing it out for reading. Wow, about 150+ pages without graphics, so a lot of information here.
Looks like a little bit of reading took me a long way, I'll be watching from the side lines mainly, looks like everyone has it all under control :)
I have access to 304, not 316. Has anyone experienced any issues between 304 and 316?
Another thing, when creating these neutral plates, am I correct.. Should the spacing between these plates be isolated from the surrounding water?
Nice work everyone, Stan did mention the Power of Unity didn't he? I can see it now, "Internet Community Solves Energy Crisis Over Unity" :)
Keep it up!
@ IronHead... you giving up your secrets under a fake name?
I think this guy is on to something...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVhQ9a_clzY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVhQ9a_clzY)
-rptr
Quote from: rapttor on June 13, 2007, 11:52:06 AM
@ IronHead... you giving up your secrets under a fake name?
I think this guy is on to something...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVhQ9a_clzY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVhQ9a_clzY)
-rptr
not sure that is the same thing?
Similar yes, some points...not the same way we're doing it... but I like this guy's approach, using the Newman methodology.
I think you could do this even easier with SDC & pump charging circuit... might eliminate some electronics... just rambling...
-rptr
I have never used Ni-chrome wire methods
Oxygen is magnetic
Proof of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Isd9IEnR4bw
IronHead
Man, I'm a geek I'll admit it... I scoured youtube & google video for videos such as this one... But I guess you are a better Geek than I!!! Geekier...Geekiest...
Thank you for the Resson Mastah.
-rapttor
I prefer Guru
Guru... Sir yes Sir ;)
Quote from: IronHead on June 13, 2007, 04:48:55 PM
Student of a different system.
I have never used Ni-chrome wire methods
Oxygen is magnetic
Proof of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Isd9IEnR4bw
IronHead
looks like we can use a magnet then to separate the O from the H since the H does not need to be paired!
you are using a magnet to harvest HHO
The magnetic field that sets up in the plates... right?
yup
Stanly M. uses electro magnetic field in his cell to pull the - charged O and the + charged HH apart Right IH? :-\
Yes and we all do ,no matter the type of cell. Even in the extreme RF type we are effecting the magnetic bonds ,breaking those bonds by changing the frequency of the magnets in the water , Atoms, Electrons . Its all about magnets . Understanding magnetic fields and there frequencies is the most important thing in this fuel extraction process.
If we had two bits of iron and a magnet between them. Lets say this magnet has a frequency of 180Khz. How could we separate the iron form the magnet . We could use brute force and just physically pull them apart . But is there another way?
inverse the magnetic wave to yield zero attraction. the iron would be separated easily.
Or rather bombard the system with an inverse field. I know everyone like to be specific, I am too tried.
Oxygen is magnetic even though it has a balanced number of e- and p+, however do to its nature the outer shell (which has 6 e-) has two e- that are not in paired orbitals. If you do a little more research one will find that all magnetic metals have interesting e- orbital characteristics, unpaired e- one level in from outer layer (yes i understand that "layers" is a bad you because of overlap but that gets a bit hard to grasp). Hydrogen too has an unparied e- , poor little guy only has one e-. So could it be that magnetism has little to do p+, and everything to do with e- and the arrangement of them around a nucleus, yes it seems so. And pulling the h2 from the O would be an interesting game of tug of war. But why then would an electrically induced mag field do a job that a static mag field won't. There must be something to the charge moving that does something, wouldn't it seem. The bonds that connect h2o are magnetic in nature, the filling of e- pairs. So could it be that the flowing charge imparts an excited e- state making a more magneticly active/suseptible molecule which then could be pulled apart by the field from the plate. Or is it just the field of the plate (created by flowing charge) that pulls it apart. Or are electrons actually flowing which temporally fills the unpaired e- which allows the h and the o to simply float away from eachother, after which the unbalanced atom kicks the e- out to go to ground state. Or maybe something else altogether. I think a discussion of the basic mechanics behind what exactly is happening would be important.
What do you say IH, want to start having everyone list the basic observations of the cells, then discuss what mechanics could give those results?
http://amasci.com/freenrg/wassrmag.html
Quote from: IronHead on June 13, 2007, 07:48:19 PM
If we had two bits of iron and a magnet between them. Lets say this magnet has a frequency of 180Khz. How could we separate the iron form the magnet . We could use brute force and just physically pull them apart . But is there another way?
RESONANCE!!!!
and shake their booties!
One thing that is a constant about hho production is that the gas always comes off the negative plate, in a two plate system at least, neutral plate cells work the same, but different. The gas is made on the negative side of the neutral plates.
And of course more gas is made with more voltage.
And more gas is made with more amperage draw.
What has everyone noticed about holes in plates and edges of plates?
What about distance of plates, increasing voltage?
What about static magnetic fields and how does that affect production?
What about magnets in line with the plates vs. perpendicular with the plates?
Just some thoughts.
Quote from: d3adp00l on June 14, 2007, 12:06:06 AM
One thing that is a constant about hho production is that the gas always comes off the negative plate, in a two plate system at least, neutral plate cells work the same, but different. The gas is made on the negative side of the neutral plates.
And of course more gas is made with more voltage.
And more gas is made with more amperage draw.
What has everyone noticed about holes in plates and edges of plates?
What about distance of plates, increasing voltage?
What about static magnetic fields and how does that affect production?
What about magnets in line with the plates vs. perpendicular with the plates?
Just some thoughts.
i made the tcell, but it seems to me you would want the plates as close as possible but leaving enough space so bubbles can easily escape. If you make big bubbles they need room to surface and the farther the plates need to be to get good flow.
More juice and warmer temps do seem to produce more gas on my cell as well. it seemed to take the same amount of wattage, so i could run high volts and small amps or small volts and high amps to get roughly the same amount of gas. (not measured just by observation)
i did not do temp/time measurements to see which one heated the fastest as i assumed wattage is wattage and for a given wattage a given rate heating would occur.
Eventually it went into a runaway condition and the my fuses.
Holes in the plates would act like little conductors allowing for (leakage) from one side of the plate to the other and likewise open sides and bottom, but of course the bottom has to be open to allow for flow.
i cannot imagine magnets be usefull in the actual production of the gas. Maybe in processing it after it has been produced?
@I.H... sorry I didn't mean to distract the project... I'm just trying to fill in the gaps in my twisted way of understanding things.
-rapttor
While waiting for more "stuff" to arrive, I built a booster for the red car. It took forever to find ways of connecting the wires. I used 8 guage, but now think that 4 would have been a better choice. I used a normal house circuit breaker (anyone know of a problem using those on d.c.?). At any rate, it works, it runs and it was a fun project.
The variac came yesterday and the frequency generator and the electric parts from Mouser. So I get to play with solder for a while,,,yea,,,,
Some people think that it is more appropriate to call H2O,,H 1.5 O,,because H naturally disassociates itself from O at a very fast rate and reattaches at a similar rate. How that affects what we are doing is unclear.
I sit cross-legged in front of the guru, repeating "ohm, ohm"
Quote from: yikes on June 14, 2007, 11:34:34 AM
I sit cross-legged in front of the guru, repeating "ohm, ohm"
;D now that's funny... good one!
On the whole will an IC motor run on 100% HHO, the answer is yes. I have done it as Iââ,¬â,,¢m shier IH has. I will be adding a video to my youtube site in the next couple days. This video will show the running of a 22.5cc motor off of 100% HHO. I will answer any questions on youtube or on a different thread if need be. http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Jameshotguy77
Now we can use this thread as it was intended to be, IH teaching everyone. If I was everyone else, I would pay attention to IH and not waist his time on things that can be found in different threads or websites. If there is only one thing that everyone picks up from this thread it to take your time and be safe befor its to late!!!!, Put your Cell in you car, play with it, learn it, have fun just be safe.
Ok sorry for that rant IH
Just remember the whole world works on WAVES. Light are wave, magnetic energy is waves, when you think or talkââ,¬Â¦ Yes waves. Just In this setup we will be working with specific waves, HZ to GHZ.
Has anyone put the electromagnetic spectrum UHF (ultrahigh frequency) to there cell?
Hot Hydro Dady
Hot Hydro Dady I disagree with your statement.
I want everyones input, comments, opinions . If you have a question ask it ,if you have an answer post it.
So now we are talking about changing the fields that hold together the atoms in a water molecule. So if we introduce a wave to a magnet we can cause it to weaken , straighten or fail . Fail is what we are looking for .
You can slow the spin of an atom to weaken its attraction with a opposing magnetic force and we are doing that now. The next part we need to attempt is to shake the hell out of the structure. So what do we need to know in order to do this . There have been many links posted here on the study of water molecules and there types.
The part we want to learn here is does it take a huge magnetic field with huge amps to breakout HHO from H2O. This is what Stanly was doing .(Stanly was not using waves to shake things up . He was using them to convert volts to amps , pulsing a capacitor cell at about 20,000 volts.)
Or can we shake thing up enough so that just a tiny pull from a magnetic field will be effective enough to disassociate H and O, safely?
I respect your though and I apologize. From this point on I will just post my finding and give help to though that need it. I will not surpass the speed of the teacher ( IronHead ) for safety reasons. ?gun in a kids hands?.
rapttor<--- Raises Hand
Teach, would that be HF RF?
Hkyle <------- Raises hand
Teach, Do we need one of those big kick ass red coils to step the voltage up? or can we get by with the frequency generator?
Ok, By now you should be realizing that this is not a class about how to build a specific type of HHO extraction device . It is a class on how to build them all using one basic cell type to learn all of the others. Maybe up to the point that the only thing in the Tupperware tub you have there ,is WATER.
Your experiments by now should have shown you reactions with a brute force cell from 12vdc up to at least 120vdc?
What is needed now is frequency generator up to at least 50khz
Quote from: hkyle on June 14, 2007, 05:39:53 PM
Hkyle <------- Raises hand
Teach, Do we need one of those big kick ass red coils to step the voltage up? or can we get by with the frequency generator?
wonders why we dont just use a tesla longitudinal transmission line, as a voltage multiplier and shake thar booties yah yah!
hey if you guys didnt see this its great :)
Nuke em baby!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5454901597168049884&q
Quote from: IronHead on June 14, 2007, 07:20:31 PM
What is needed now is frequency generator up to at least 50khz
one or 2? err gated i mean?
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=OMA1981
I watched this video and found it quite interesting. It appears that a square wave generator signal is encapsulated within another square wave generator signal and that signal can be varied in different ratios of ON/OFF time for the higher frequency square wave generation. I assume this resultant waveform was fed to transistors to provide more amperage and voltage to a step up transformer connected to the hydrolysis plates. It seems to me that the capacitance of the plates in the Hydrolysis may vary because of turbulence in the Hydrolysis container but that some average might be chosen or some feedback loop to vary the frequence going into the inductor/capacitor series circuit to maintain resonance. Are some folks here thinking of experimenting along these lines?
P.S. I wonder what one of these high voltage diodes cost...
http://www.voltagemultipliers.com/pdf/SM6525-SM6535.pdf
Keeping it simple to start with. The more features you Gen has the better .
This part is really just to show some results then some of us might need to go out and buy a much more complex Gen or multiple types. At the moment you don't even need something that locks. A simple FG500K would be fine to start out.
http://www.amazon.com/FG500K-Function-Generator-requires-Assembly/dp/B0002MQEW4
Not everyone here is going to go the distance when it comes to this class. Many will build a cell to a point (Fuel Enhancer ) and be done.Others will go on to blow the roof off there house.
Quote from: magnetar on June 14, 2007, 07:48:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=OMA1981
I watched this video and found it quite interesting. It appears that a square wave generator signal is encapsulated within another square wave generator signal and that signal can be varied in different ratios of ON/OFF time for the higher frequency square wave generation. I assume this resultant waveform was fed to transistors to provide more amperage and voltage to a step up transformer connected to the hydrolysis plates. It seems to me that the capacitance of the plates in the Hydrolysis may vary because of turbulence in the Hydrolysis container but that some average might be chosen or some feedback loop to vary the frequence going into the inductor/capacitor series circuit to maintain resonance. Are some folks here thinking of experimenting along these lines?
Yes similar in time.
We have just begun the vibration / resonance classes. I know this is going slow for some of you . But this is how it goes for all.
Some of you guys wanting to replicate the Stan Meyer cell might what to go over to check out one of my subscribers H2earth, some good people over there.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=H2earth
Here is where there study is going on.
http://www.h2earth.org/
Quote from: IronHead on June 14, 2007, 07:51:53 PM
Some of you guys wanting to replicate the Stan Meyer cell might what to go over to check out one of my subscribers H2earth, some good people over there.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=H2earth
Hmm, the scope shows a square wave like the other video but it is also being chopped by a sawtooth wave on the high side.
Have you measured the capacitance of any of your cells, IronHead?
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=OMA1981
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Dielectric.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric
Hmm, I wonder where the fellow got one of the charts for the video, LOL.
magnetar are you here to build my cell or are you here to talk about Stan Meyer's works?
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1817.0.html
It has been a long time since I have done a cell like this. My focus now is on a much higher end type of system.An injector similar to what Meyer talked about but in a much different way.And I can not do that as my hands have been injured .
If you want more info on whats going on with this cell type ask the rest of the guys .
All cell capacitance of every cell will be much different. Every time you change that water it will very greatly. As the plates break in it will very and so on.
Again although we are applying some of the ideas Meyer used we are not building a Meyer cell.
Soon I will do a gas production comparison of what we are doing here and Meyer's first cell in the video that was made that everyone seems to want to
replicate. This was Stans first successful cell and it was huge. I say first a long time ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et004X1ir3k
Quote from: IronHead on June 14, 2007, 07:51:53 PM
I know this is going slow for some of you . But this is how it goes for all.
Somehow I do not see slow being your style, IronHead. Wait! I think this is you in this video. LOL
I assume you own a truck so that you can put the transform in the bed. Were cooking now...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMT7sxUTU1s
(Teach said)
Not everyone here is going to go the distance when it comes to this class. Many will build a cell to a point (Fuel Enhancer ) and be done.Others will go on to blow the roof off there house.
Moby,<-------- raises hand ^
Kewl!! Can i help? ;D
Yep, ya cant get rid ov me now. .M.
Quote from: magnetar on June 14, 2007, 08:39:22 PM
Quote from: IronHead on June 14, 2007, 07:51:53 PM
I know this is going slow for some of you . But this is how it goes for all.
Somehow I do not see slow being your style, IronHead. Wait! I think this is you in this video. LOL
I assume you own a truck so that you can put the transform in the bed. Were cooking now...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMT7sxUTU1s
Well my cell, thats the most resent. Has no plates , the canister is about the size of a Bic lighter. Its housing about 2 times the size of a beer can and the control system is about the size of a shoe box. It produces10times what the NS-T cell produced that only used a 1/4 inch rod . This tech is far from what anyone else has done. And the NS-T produced 10s of times what Meyer's first cell produced.
Besides this I admire the guy in this video for pushing the limits in his own way . He may learn something from this no one has ever considered . Ok I am done with the dick comparisons . I have no need to continue with this conversation.
Moab Hey bro what have you been up to.
Lets see some of what you are doing with HHO
You betchya ! but first i gotta get another digital/video. Mine got stolen when i was out of town. Soon though. cause i got some neat stuff. Moab.
Quote from: IronHead on June 14, 2007, 08:54:00 PM
Moab Hey bro what have you been up to.
Lets see some of what you are doing with HHO
I bet you do , lay it on us as soon as you can. Good to see you working with this technology bro.
Repost
So now we are talking about changing the fields that hold together the atoms in a water molecule. So if we introduce a wave to a magnet we can cause it to weaken , strengthen or fail . Fail is what we are looking for .
You can slow the spin of an atom to weaken its attraction with a opposing magnetic force and we are doing that now. The next part we need to attempt is to shake the hell out of the structure. So what do we need to know in order to do this . There have been many links posted here on the study of water molecules and there types.
The part we want to learn here is does it take a huge magnetic field with huge amps to breakout HHO from H2O. This is what Stanly was doing .(Stanly was not using waves to shake things up . He was using them to convert volts to amps , pulsing a capacitor cell at about 20,000 volts.)
Or can we shake things up enough so that just a tiny pull from a magnetic field will be effective enough to disassociate H and O, safely?
you can use 20000 volts if you want to. But you dont need that much. And BTW you guys that want to use HHO for your automobile. the HV is alredy there for you. Now you just need to make it pulse at the right freq and ajust the voltage to suit your needs.. OOps Sorry teach :o My bad, I didnt mean to get ahead. But think about that anyway guys.
OOps Sorry teach My bad, I didnt mean to get ahead. But think about that anyway guys.
;) yeah yeah...sure sure you didn't.... ;D
Well the real question is in the months that Ironhead has been playing the teacher role,
has anyone come close to replicating these initially observed effects? ANYONE???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnIJyNmI33U
Two small rods producing more LPM of HHO than I have ever experienced from a single cell.
I see lots of neutral plates and plastics in the replicants, but strangly none in this video...
~Dingus Mungus
I'm just 1 coil away....lol
Quote from: IronHead on June 14, 2007, 08:49:13 PM
Besides this I admire the guy in this video for pushing the limits in his own way . He may learn something from this no one has ever considered .
Ok I am done with the dick comparisons . I have no need to continue with this conversation.
No insult was intended. I hope you don't live close to me. Bad things happen when you rip open the space-time continuum. :D
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on June 14, 2007, 09:49:01 PM
Well the real question is in the months that Ironhead has been playing the teacher role,
has anyone come close to replicating these initially observed effects? ANYONE???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnIJyNmI33U
Two small rods producing more LPM of HHO than I have ever experienced from a single cell.
I see lots of neutral plates and plastics in the replicants, but strangly none in this video...
~Dingus Mungus
i will let you know when i shake that bootie!
Everyone here built the Scell that is a Tcell that is more difficult to lets say "tune up". you can build one of those too, just use tungsten and (stainless or platinum) as the anode. It is the high voltage version of the Scell and i think most people want to run these in their cars and the Scell is more accomodating for that purpose.
He is starting to talk about shakin that booty and tuning now, i think everything that has been said so far applies to both cells in principal.
alex put up a cell vid that cranks out some very nice HHO a few pages back like mid 50's somewhere and the S cell is on utube working as well.
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on June 14, 2007, 09:49:01 PM
Well the real question is in the months that Ironhead has been playing the teacher role,
has anyone come close to replicating these initially observed effects? ANYONE???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnIJyNmI33U
Two small rods producing more LPM of HHO than I have ever experienced from a single cell.
I see lots of neutral plates and plastics in the replicants, but strangly none in this video...
~Dingus Mungus
Because this is the cell I was asked about the most . This is the cell I got most of the messages /emails about . This is the cell type I was teaching on YouTube.The only person out of many that has even talked about NS-T is "kokomoj0"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DesuxiMR-OM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svukDnceeRE
I am not obligated to show you any of my tech and there is some stuff I will not show you or share with anyone. You can go ahead and give everything you have away but I will not.
If you do not like the outcome of what I have shown in this thread then leave and stop begging for more.
Besides all of this, the NS-T is obsolete .
As far as I am concerned you just seem to be someone looking for a hand out , not willing to earn what it takes to build any of this.It takes half a life time to figure these things out and I am just suppose to give you everything I have. I think not.
Keithturtle raises hand with a couple questions;
What is "NS-T"? Found the term, Could not find it defined in earlier pages. Metal type?
Would permanent magnets added to the ends of the cell effectively help or hinder the fracture process, depending on polarity?
Thank you, IronHead, for taking your time in this thread. I 'bout blew the roof offa the house a few years back, so that's why I like taking this "slow and steady"
Turtle
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on June 14, 2007, 09:49:01 PM
Well the real question is in the months that Ironhead has been playing the teacher role,
has anyone come close to replicating these initially observed effects? ANYONE???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnIJyNmI33U
Two small rods producing more LPM of HHO than I have ever experienced from a single cell.
I see lots of neutral plates and plastics in the replicants, but strangly none in this video...
~Dingus Mungus
From a neutral observant stand point...
Dingus... You can get pretty damn close to the reaction in the NS-T in the video on youtube you are refferencing to from the info that IronHead has already deceminated in his posts over the last few months. I've gotten similar results with a variac & hot water & being a C-hair within a certain amount of continuity created in the water.
This Cell was made obsolete, due to excessive current draw if I had to base it on what I saw for results in my own tests, which I.H. deceminated in his posts if you read them carefully.
IronHead is going about this in a way to allow us to progress at a "Meduim Pace"(adam sandler fans)without falling in the holes he's already found and at the same time cautioning us on what NOT to do, for our own safety... He has forgotten more than I can grasp on this subject, I would suggest, join us in the learning experience and contribute when you see fit or continue to wait for it to be "handed" out, which won't happen.
my financed .02
Quote from: rapttor on June 15, 2007, 11:01:31 AM
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on June 14, 2007, 09:49:01 PM
Well the real question is in the months that Ironhead has been playing the teacher role,
has anyone come close to replicating these initially observed effects? ANYONE???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnIJyNmI33U
Two small rods producing more LPM of HHO than I have ever experienced from a single cell.
I see lots of neutral plates and plastics in the replicants, but strangly none in this video...
~Dingus Mungus
From a neutral observant stand point...
Dingus... You can get pretty damn close to the reaction in the NS-T in the video on youtube you are refferencing to from the info that IronHead has already deceminated in his posts over the last few months. I've gotten similar results with a variac & hot water & being a C-hair within a certain amount of continuity created in the water.
This Cell was made obsolete, due to excessive current draw if I had to base it on what I saw for results in my own tests, which I.H. deceminated in his posts if you read them carefully.
IronHead is going about this in a way to allow us to progress at a "Meduim Pace"(adam sandler fans)without falling in the holes he's already found and at the same time cautioning us on what NOT to do, for our own safety... He has forgotten more than I can grasp on this subject, I would suggest, join us in the learning experience and contribute when you see fit or continue to wait for it to be "handed" out, which won't happen.
my financed .02
I agree with rapttor at first I was skeptical but after reading all IH posts I have not found him to be misleading or to say something that just does not fit. Every thing leads me to believe IH is not tiring to waist our time! He is here to help.
Wow, thanks guys what you all said here means alot to me.
I don't even have to bash a flamer anymore , though sometimes its fun. You guys got my back and I thank you much for that.
Ok I think you guys all understand that the less voltage leaks we have the better the outcome. I was going to talk about closing the bottom up and pump water through the plats but this requires so major cell modifications and I dont think it will show you something you do not already understand. So we will leave it for a later date when the cell is ready to be multiplied and put to use.
So pulsing is what we want to talk about and here again we are not talking about pulsing to amp dump in the cell like the Meyer system. We are talking about shaking the hell out of the molecules . We are starting out simple we don't need 12ghz or 1.5 THz at the moment
http://www.martin.chaplin.btinternet.co.uk/vibrat.html
http://www.martin.chaplin.btinternet.co.uk/hbond.html
Someone also asked the question are we going to use IR or UV light in this cell
at any point in time and the answer is YES
IronHead
Will we need a cap (same uf as the cell but an higher voltage) in parallel with our cell once we start pulsing it ???
Not looking for a free hand out here...
I got my own hydrogen project I'm working on.
Nor am I saying anything negative about what IH is teaching you.
My point was that so far most of this 60+ page thread has been about building something other than the original displayed prototype. On top of that the assembly for the SGi cell was ultra easy, and the only thing you would need to learn about would be the driving circuit. Now its the cell thats uber complicated and you guys aren't even to the driving circuit yet. It just seems a lot less practical to me, then showing us how to build the SGi...
Also if you look at other project's notes on neutral plates you'll see lots of designs that got more efficient once the neutral plates where removed. My opinion is the new cell being built is just that, something new and not the device that got everyone so excited about this thread.
Be angry with me if you must, but I'm only stating what I see.
~Dingus Mungus
Dingus, you are missing the point. I know from your work with ResinRat that you are intelligent and well-meaning, but the type of cell being worked on here is not what has caused this thread to prosper. It is the fact that IH has been willing to help the rest of us get up to speed. And for that, among other reasons, he has our respect. The cells and procedures may change and evolve as we as a group do also.
Stick around,,this stuff is fun.
Soldered my very first circuit board today. Sadly, I neglected to order all the parts needed. It's got to be the coffee that makes me do that,,,,,it ain't the age!
I want to begin to experiment with a cell, i try to find lye but i cannot find it in my area, can i use baking soda instead?
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on June 15, 2007, 07:19:11 PM
Not looking for a free hand out here...
I got my own hydrogen project I'm working on.
Nor am I saying anything negative about what IH is teaching you.
My point was that so far most of this 60+ page thread has been about building something other than the original displayed prototype. On top of that the assembly for the SGi cell was ultra easy, and the only thing you would need to learn about would be the driving circuit. Now its the cell thats uber complicated and you guys aren't even to the driving circuit yet. It just seems a lot less practical to me, then showing us how to build the SGi...
Also if you look at other project's notes on neutral plates you'll see lots of designs that got more efficient once the neutral plates where removed. My opinion is the new cell being built is just that, something new and not the device that got everyone so excited about this thread.
Be angry with me if you must, but I'm only stating what I see.
~Dingus Mungus
he was out of commission for a bit there you know and you really cannot expect someone to devote every waking moment of their spare time to the boards, i mean after all he is doing this as a favor to all of us.
I think you will find that he has earned our respect. look at the successful cells being made that sort of speaks for his work doesnt it?
I check the vids every so often and i have yet to see anyone who is approaching the kind of output he gets from these cells.
I am the bad boy he speaks of who chose to make the t cell i suppose because it was the first video of hydrogen i saw that really impressed me LOL
If you read the previous posts you can see IH is into some pretty advanced HHO production technique and you will find his answers make sense and work. So he has my respect and i have confidence we will all have some kool generators when this class is over!
@ Dingus Look I am not sure what your building over there but if you followed these instruction you will clearly get as much HHO at this point as you would with the NS-T cell with out all the side effects. You seem to think other wise . Maybe it is because of the surface tension you see in the that cell making it look like so much more gas than this S-Cell where the gas breaks the surface so fast you can hear it. Or you have not followed instructions and you are getting crap for production I am not sure which.
So I am thinking what you really need is some help with your cell as it is clearly not producing for you . So tell us and we will help you solve the problem.
The One you can use bake if you like just do everything possible to not breath bake same as you would with lye . Bake gases to produce a lot of carbon monoxide.So you have to vent this out an I would run this through a carbon filter system if I were you . Lye does not Gas and linger around if you can find some later on
Also ResinRat and I have been talking through PMs and his reseach is leading us to new places . We are going to be replacing the electrolyte as soon as my experiments are done. With the little I am able to do right now I am very impressed with what the results are in a brute force cell. We will talk about this soon I have things to do first.
There is alot more going on than any of you can imagine.
Beside this I got 127 emails in 3 locations today just on HHO
14 PMs here, and 21 YouTube PMs. This all just for HHO .
This does not include the other tech I teach.
Oh yeah and I get to type with two fingers the rest don't work right now.
Now I have to go into a online VR world and teach about a motor.
so Have fun
ok thanks, my first cell will be very small so its more for experiencing the effect, i will make sure the room is well vent!
You must do better than vent you gota suck that crap out of the air as soon as it is produced . We are talking about a lot of pure Carbon Monoxide not the little bit that comes out of a tail pipe on you car. Sorry should have not used the word vent, suck is a much better word.
IH,
when you talk about resonance are you talking about electrical resonance, as in LRC resonance, enclosure resonance(sound), hydrogen resonance, oxygen resonance, or some other that had not occurred to me?
enclosure and plate resonance(sound), hydrogen resonance, oxygen resonance.
This is where things get hard to explain but I am working on how to . It is very easy for me to just see in my mind and sort of feel what I am doing . But explaining it I have to make effort to do. Even that did not come out right.
I will get you there
If I did not learn I could not teach what I know. I can stop now if you like.
Deleted .....................................................................................
Gentlemen, please, let everybody calm down.
Everybody is learning from everybody else here. We are all reporting our experiences to help each other out. Why does it always happen that someone gets angry and leaves? Let's not have it happen again.
IronHead, obviously you know a great deal so let's all learn. Just keep posting your stuff and let's all work from each other.
I think it would be ironic that the end result of all this tension would be a hybrid of all our works combined that worked. Let's go by that assumption and keep plugging away.
Thanks for the slap Resin Rat I need that
I have just had a very bad day guys ,along with not being able to build anything as I go along . I am having a hard time just doing anything right now and it is really messing with my head.
I have reworded my thoughts here
mramos and Dingus should show us some of the videos on their massive HHO production . What do you think guys? Because I for one have seen nothing from them but words. If you want people to respond to your great work then show it and share it!
Dont come into my thread bashing me for trying to help in my own way.
Thank you
IronHead
Assumption, you assume I am trying to save the planet when all I am doing is what I was asked to do. Show how the neutral plate cell works from my video post on YouTube.And I have done that all this other stuff is extra.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=SGiHunter
You guys start talking to me in a more respectful manor and I will not be so defensive.
You have no clue what I am doing , all you know is what you see in this thread if you do not like it GO AWAY!
You could show me NASA machine shop and lab but that dont show me HHO from water does it! You have no input just bashing of what does not agree with you. And again you have avoided showing any input of any kind with your last post or any of your post as far as I am concerned.
And I dont have to show you shit you ain't on the the list
I will make the choices here. Get it now move on.
Dave contacted me I talk to people that have respect and add input . you have none of these qualities that I can see.
Now here is your ass back , take it and run before the rest of the guys on this thread tear off a piece.
IronHead
wow!! The tension in this thread is getting so thick people seem to be losing sight of what it is even here for. Everyone needs to calm down a little and stop crying... If you dont believe something can be done than dont do it-find another way-your own way. I could be wrong but i don't think IH is getting paid to do research by anyone here, nor is he under any lawful obligation.
Poeple dont have to tell others what they do or how they do it. If you dont like the information from a source find another source.
I personally appreciate the time IH is putting into this thread...
whats the use of having something if you dont know how it works ???
Why not just have 3 different threads everyone with their own design and methods?
Ignoring the off topic posts.
IH, please discuss the pulsing more, I understand each cells unique resonance, etc. What is the aprox. range for more most cells. Square wave, saw, etc, or should it be on-off dc pulses (negative square with no reverse voltage). I would image in order to shake things up, it would be a voltage one way the reverse, if the intention is to pound on the h20 like a jack hammer I would see dc pulses with no reversal.
Wow... :-[
I did not want to cause this kind of chaos with my observation.
For that I'm sorry to all, but please allow me to explain myself.
I was only trying to point out you're building something new...
I was excited when you started this thread months ago because
of the SGi's production rate I observed. Those bubbles are HUGE!
All I really wanted to do was to find out more about the better
working model you posted in the start of the thread. It had no
complicated cell design, just two 1/4" SS rods in some house tap.
The only thing to learn was the driving circuit and how it worked.
I didn't want to derail your current research with "old hat"...
I'll drop it till you're ready to teach it I guess.
My bad and no hard feelings,
~Dingus
P.S. If you do release more info on the 90v pulsed AC SGi driving circuit you
described months ago, I would be quite happy to learn about it from you.
There is sooo much information on this thread, I've printed it and I am still only about 65% through. Almost there, then I'll be able to read this thread on a daily basis.
I think all this information and research deserves some sort of Wiki?
At least so it's easily browsable and all the garbage is cut out. Sorry, I like organized information! :) (im sure we all do!)
Keep it coming, it's not often you find a place on the Net you like to browse on a regular basis.
The Series Cell started on Page 4 it's construction because of so much feed back started on Page 14
Thats correct d3adp00l, On off /no reversal . Things start to really shake right around 40 to 45khz in my cell . Like you might find in a motor controller but where freqs can be dialed.
But your cell with different properties ,like thicker or thiner plates will have a different outcome.
You can do this at any voltage . You have seen the outcome of many voltage levels.
The point here is these are test that you do at any voltage level.
You make that decision to use 12 to 200+ VDC it does not matter. What you are looking for is a difference from the straight DC to pulsed DC.
The center and outer plates is where you will focus your attention and look for a production difference. You will cause a magnetic field resonance within the cell which will have a gradient through the cell
Huge bubbles is because of high surface tension , not because of very high production. In this Plate Series cell the surface tension is broken down very quickly. The gas is release into the air faster leaving no large surface bubbles like you see it the NS-T cell or Joe Cell. Large bubbles have nothing to do with high production.
This is what the cell should look like and sound like when done properly , Thanks alexleigh. This is alot of gas pouring off in to the air very quickly.
If this had a high surface tension there would be bubble instantly pouring over the sides of the tub. These bubbles are breaking at the surface.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2057.0;attach=9542
Dingus Mungus The NS-T cell is obsolete and no longer . The NS-T also requires alot more equipment to run. There is no gradient of operation it ether does or does not work.
I will do what I can to write up something for you on that cell and PM it to you.
Along with a couple other guys that insist on working with the NS-T. First ,one small piece of Nitronic 50 Stainless steel is going to cost you more than all the SS in the Series Cell. About 300USD for 1"x72" not sure if you can purchase smaller amounts. You will have to look around
http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=10707&step=4&showunits=inches
It is much more expensive to build with thousands of dollars worth of equipment to support the system . The electronic control delivery system must be hand built as well . All this for the same production that you will soon see here in the cheaply built S-Cell .
Also I hope you have access to a micro cutting laser if not I know where you can send the parts to have them perfed. This is also going to cost a good chunk . It is the holes that build massive electrical or electromagnetic fields that make this system work. These holes may also be acting as some kind of micro wave guides , I am not sure.
There are nearly half a million holes in a "radial fashion" in the small piece of Nitronic
along with the Tungsten
Now that the cat is outa the bag , what do you want to do?
Looks are deceiving
IronHead
I must add that if I were to teach the NS-T . There will be a few out of a thousand people that could build it and 1 out of those few that can make it work. So I have made the decision to teach the S-Cell that anyone can build and get immediate results .
In 60 pages many have had great results unlike many of the other types of research going on in this forum. So I think we are doing well here.
So in the next few pages I am hoping to see people "jack hammering" there cells and reporting there results.
This is the video that inspired me to work with series . Thats Joe on there inventor of the JoeCell. This video is much older than the posters upload
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSdxEonivNU
I hear you brave young jables you are hunger for the Rock. but to learn the ancient methods secrete doors you must unlock.
IronHead
I just bought one of these PWM units to test and see if it is a good solution for some of you , and it's low cost .
http://cgi.ebay.com/PC-Interface-PWM-Control-Hydrogen-motors-KIT_W0QQitemZ270130064049QQihZ017QQcategoryZ78190QQcmdZViewItem
Hey IronHead, thanks for doing all of this i really appreciated it. i have been following this thread from the sidelines since page 14. And i built a cell with config +nnnnn-nnnnn+ on each side as i was experimenting with lower voltage, im still going to build the one you recommend, just havent got around to it yet, i think im going to make it enclosed though and try to pump water thru it as you were saying. I have a question and it may be off topic but have you built the VIC circuit and gotten it to work? i have just received the components for my pulsing circuit and i just have to cut out my pcb so i can assemble it. I was also thinking, i noticed that the VIC circuit is a whole lot like the coils and chokes used in charging the capacitor in a tesla, have you experimented with using the vic without the diode and using ac to drive it? thanks
i will be following this thread and will also be posting from now on. sorry to hear about your hands and i really appreciate what your doing here.
Whats a VIC circuit?
Stanly Meyer's VIC ( Voltage Intensifier Circuit )
Yes it was one of the first types of systems I worked with.
This circuit it design to pulse up hgih voltage in a capacitor type cell to the point where the cell peaks in its ability to hold High voltage . When the cap cell peaks it shorts out. An avalanche occurs dumping its volts to amps. High amperage then rips the water apart. This is a dielectric capacitor using water as the dielectric and it works to a point.
Anyone that would like to try it there is alot of info on the net about the VIC controller.
Although the plates are to close in the cell you are building here for this technology. You can use this method on the cell you re working with , just use straight water no additives.Your voltage just wont build very high. I would say if you want to experiment with this to use two plates about 1/2" or more apart to start out.
From what I have seen.
You will end up with about the same thing you have when using non pulsed 12-36 volts at 30 to 10 amps. Since we can supply the 30 or so amps with a cars power system we can get the same effect as dumping big volts to amps because we already have the amps to work with. We just do this in a straight and simple way, right from a alternator that can give you 10 or 50 amps all day long.
If you build the thing and put a few new twist on the system getting good output please post the results.
For some comparisons ---
These guys work with VIC stuff
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=H2earth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRa9yd9I4Tc
My buddy Bornman88 and salaxoyris
is using the straight amp pulsed S-Cell type
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=bornman88
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=salaxoyris
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVs3NFMti0U
Also johncarl43447 with his dog dish S-cell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFcsKKBKSpw
We are not at these levels yet but we will be and not long now.
awesome, thanks for the info!! i will definately be experimenting and i will post my results if i find something new and exciting. did you wrap your vic in a standard style plate transformer or did you use a ferrite core? im thinking about wraping it around some 1" acrylic tube and filling it with fe3o4 mixed with epoxy as a core. any opinions on this? also did you use stainless wire for your chokes as the patent says?
Single module full enclosed pumped cell .You can put the Inlet on the bottom I did this on the side to show the holes between each cell cavity.
This is just a rendering to get the idea of full enclosure .
This is only one module we are working on you will have many in a finished system that can then be enclosed . You can do this one or not just to see the out come as the production is much higher with a fully enclosed cell.
Quote from: s_c_engineering on June 17, 2007, 12:33:27 PM
awesome, thanks for the info!! i will definately be experimenting and i will post my results if i find something new and exciting. did you wrap your vic in a standard style plate transformer or did you use a ferrite core? im thinking about wraping it around some 1" acrylic tube and filling it with fe3o4 mixed with epoxy as a core. any opinions on this? also did you use stainless wire for your chokes as the patent says?
Because I was working on a Muller Motor at the same time . I used Magnetite FE304 with Solid Epoxy in a section of G10 tubing for the chokes and wrapped with aircraft grade T-304 stainless. Only because this is what was at hand.
They can get hot so don't use inferior Resin. I think the best thing is to cut you core out of the Acrylic when cured and wrap with some heat transfer tape will convect heat better.
with the enclosed cell do you still want it the same size or does it need to be larger to use in a car? :)
This is just a rendering to get the idea of full enclosure .
This is only one module we are working on you will have many in a finished system that can then be enclosed . You can do this one or not just to see the out come as the production is much higher with and fully enclosed cell.
Thanks for the info on the vic. keep up the good info on the S-cell!!
@ironhead
I built a cell a while ago that was similar to this design. The problem that I had was with the water inlet ports at the bottom. When I started making about 3 liters / min the hydroxy would start coming out of the water inlet ports at the bottom of the cell...Thats when I went to a port injection into each cell from the top of each cell. I will post a pic of the water feed system.
Hydroxy comes out the top port and water goes straight in.
Ok , Your saying the HHO was back feeding to the pump to your cell .Not sure how that can happen if there is a constant flow of water pushing into and out of the cell .I have not had this problem. Maybe I should complete the model with the rest of the chambering, pump, valves and connections so you can see the full circuit .
This was just a quicky to show the construction.
Also did you have this setup in a car or under any kind of vacuum?
I am not really sure what I am looking at in you pic
Though I am very interested in how you did your cell
You might check the pictures at oupower.com under hydrogen. The man built a series of cells using walmart cereal containers, each has 10 stainless 316 3 x 6 in each. Looks clean and simple. Uses a 2 liter coke bottle for a bubbler. Plenty of pictures and explanations.
Been there done that. A great build he has done. Would really like to see the guy continue with his work on HHO he was very talented. I have seen nothing for a long time with what he was doing.
If someone wants to offer for sale 10 packs of stainless steel plates ready to insert in Walmart Cereal boxes, I'm a buyer. These would be nearly ready to produce hydroxy. What to do with the gas. Check out this patent....burn it in a ceramic vessel and create a plasma and all the extra thermal energy. Might be easier to run than the tungsten.----see patent #6443725 - and images.
How does magnesium oxide compare to aluminum oxide for a ceramic vessel?
For those that need some basics in electronics. This should get you up to par pretty quick for up and coming conversations .
Practical guide of basic electronics
http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/files/patrickkelly/Tutorial.pdf
I will be testing this device for the entry level builder later this week.http://cgi.ebay.com/PC-Interface-PWM-Control-Hydrogen-motors-and-More_W0QQitemZ270133729777QQihZ017QQcategoryZ78190QQcmdZViewItem
Also I am working with a supplier on ebay to possibly help with the HHO cell builders needs for electronics , 316 pre cut plates and so on...
The last email he sent me :
" I'm working on an 3 phase version based on our USB platform
should be out in august some time It will be a true brute boasting
180 amp of current capacity per phase.
It should allow experiments along the lines of the Departed Mr. Stan Meyers.
My mechanical engineer will be in next week I'll see if he thinks we can cut
SS' on the CNC.
Maybe we can market some plates and stand offs "
There is much going on behind the scenes
IronHead
so according to your rendering, for minimum current leakage you really want all sides of your cell enclosed at the plates. so basically grooved acrylic all the way around with holes in the top and the bottom for the cycling of water. just want to clarify.
yes
nm, please continue teacher, lol
Yes again this is one module only . If you continue to build this type cell you will copy this cell many time to complete a full HHO series cell paralleled system.
is there anyway you can post a small rendering of the entire system. nothing to complicated. if not i know you want to teach at your own pace to keep things safe. thanks ironhead btw if you need any parts made i may be able to help i have a cnc router, a mill and a lathe.
No there was no pump so that explains a bit...it was a water reservoir connected to a hose at the bottom of the cell container, the water level in the container was at the same height of the water level in the series cell...
This new setup has a pump that pumps water into each individual cells (all 45 of them). In the picture you see a grey tube coming out of the pipe. That tube is drilled with small holes that allow the water to be pumped into each cell equally. When the water sensor in the cell say gives me water it turns on the pump and sprays water into each cell. Quite simple actually.
And no that old system was not under any type of vacuum. The hydroxy output was so violent that the gas just went everywhere, so that?s when I decided to make the water injection into each cell.
Quote from: IronHead on June 17, 2007, 10:52:53 PM
Ok , Your saying the HHO was back feeding to the pump to your cell .Not sure how that can happen if there is a constant flow of water pushing into and out of the cell .I have not had this problem. Maybe I should complete the model with the rest of the chambering, pump, valves and connections so you can see the full circuit .
This was just a quicky to show the construction.
Also did you have this setup in a car or under any kind of vacuum?
I am not really sure what I am looking at in you pic
Though I am very interested in how you did your cell
That first picture is also a WHAT NOT TOO DO. Do not drill wholes in the plates!!!! You will then find yourself in a predicament like me. Trying to figure out a new cell design that will accommodate the wholes in your plates......CRAP
Great job on the rendering by the way....It helps to see what a cell could look like and get great ideas on how to build it.
Thanks...
Quote from: IronHead on June 18, 2007, 10:46:38 AM
My mechanical engineer will be in next week I'll see if he thinks we can cut
SS' on the CNC.
Maybe we can market some plates and stand offs "[/b]
There is much going on behind the scenes
IronHead
i wonder why he wouldnt just take it to a fab shop and shear it? the cnc route wow...
Here is the metal shop i work with:
Benz Metal Products Inc
(262) 252-4515
Just ask for jake or stan to give you a quote. They have pretty good rates and will work with you on larger orders as it erduces setup time.
Good. I need some plates to be marketed.
What is the HHO to be used for? Not the best to run a combustioin engine on. Good for welding. Not much interest in burning the gas in a closed (small air escape or vacuum hole) in a ceramic container for a plasma heater?
Developing a plasma is the best way to gain the extra energy from hydrogen in my opinion.
mmmm..
when we would be producing monotonic hydrogen (in our HHO)
and feed that through a (water) boubler , what's the
chance that the gas is recombining?
Or schould we suck it straight into the engine to have the
most active gas posibble?
something like this maybe? red(+) and grey(-) all the way thru, black insulating acrylic and blue the neutrals, just trying to picture the magnetic fields and the most efficient way to use em.
Yes this is the way we are working toward .
IH;
Quite a number of pages back, Grumpy said sumthin' bout butyl holding and spacing the plates. I said I'd try it, and man, it's the hot ticket, at least at lower amps. I stacked some 304 plates, sanded with 80 G and ground along the bonding edges with 36 g. After cleaning and passivating, I stacked 'em with 1/16" balsa strip spacers in the middle (not clear to the edges), clamped 'em together, then smeared a big goober of windshield urethane on some wax paper about 1/4" thick and laid it on edgewise. Let it dry and repeated for other side. ( I did the same with GE silicone II and an identical stack, cuz I make pairs of everything).
After the stuff cured, I trimmed the edges, hooked up the connectors and put some minor power to it in spring water, no adds. The urethane cell performed just like one made with grooved acrylic, and the silicone cell turned all kinds of ugly with dark green foam, but stayed together.
Gotta break it down and see how well it held, but this technique may go a long way in getting our viewers' cells built more expeditiously.
It could easily accomodate the intra-plate water supply ducting, though y'all will need to be careful smearing the goo. Great advantage: provides rigid spacing and sealing in the same step, and no machining the plastic.
This trial appears successful, so I'll set up the thicker 316L plates in a brute force configuration and report forthwith.
I put up to 120VDC and 10 amps to the brute cell and watched things happen along the way. 0.01 normal KOH in the spring water was all that was needed.
I bought two of the chapps pulsers- one for the computer and one without. I'm with you, teach.
Poking along,
Turtle
Great job. I hope you treated the silicon cell as if it was a poison because that just what it became.
The urethane sounds great ,can you give me some product names? I want to give it a go. This could be a very good solution in the long run.
I have invited Bill Chappell to the forums to see what we are doing as he is working on new electronics and such . I would be nice to have a good suppler for some of our needs. In time I think we can make this happen.
wonder if we could make a mold and coat it with a releaser of some sort, use them as gaskets, so you could still take it apart and clean it easily.
I would think coating the acrylic would be the answer as we want to seal off the most outer edge. No need to clean, the constant movement of water with the cleaner "KOH" does this for us. Just a thought at the moment.
Edit
wait ,doesn't urethane also come in sheets ? The cell could just be lined with sheets of urethane . hmmmm
Urethane does indeed come in sheet stock, and here's the sister to the stuff I used
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/3M-Windo-Weld-Super-Fast-Urethane-windshield-replacing_W0QQitemZ280084943023QQcmdZViewItem
I got some samples of a similar DAP product that had been used in lab analysis by a distributor- they were expired so they couldn't sell 'em... got over $100 USD worth free... gotta love it!
Anyhoo, the stuff stuck tenaciously,couldn't even scrape it off that ground prepped area with a razor knife.
I'll post pics of the assembly process; it's easier than y'all might think.
Looking for sheet urethane,
Turtle
BTW,s_c;
The stuff wouldn't let go of the wax paper, so I don't know if wax, or even PVA would work. Remember, its job is to hold yer windscreen in yer ride, and keep water out whilst providing a strutural quality bond betwixt glass and painted metal.
Keith
thats cool it will definately be easier to just put it on the plates. i was thinking a petroleum product like vasoline or something. im about to go pick up some dap or 3m. thanks for the tip
Any auto parts supplier should have the 3m... don't let 'em sell you that $8 bottle of primer though, if you grind the contact area along the edges with coarse 36 grit it should stick fine... the primer is to keep the windshield opening from rusting wherever y'all scratched the paint when you dug out the old urethane form the old glass setting.
Turtle
HEY S_C;
Once you pop the cork and see how viscous that stuff is, you'll ferget all about putting it directly on the plates- you'd end up with very little active area, what, for all the goop you smeared. Better to jes smear a big aera at least as large as the side section of yer plate stack- smear that goober even flat on a piece of cardbourd with wax paper spray-glued to it, then plop the stack down, not pushing so hard that the metal edges go all the way thru the goober. You'll see the stuff work its way up betwee the plates, nice and even if you spread it out right... ever use bondo? (I'm certified, brag brag) Lemme see if I can conjer up some analogus imagery to better convey the thought... Pancakes, no... quiche, mebbe... quacamole's too thin... the guts of a pecan pie, not cutting into the crust... that's gettin' close...
And use acetone to clean yer spreading tool... nuthin' else is strong enough. Surgical glove are a must, too... Harbor freight has cheap chinese nitrile on sale, $7/ box of 100.
More later... my brain hurts... no, I'm hungry...
Back to my basking lamp...
Turtle
I used the butyl rubber to seal up my cell, actually has worked better than I expected it to. I've had my cell to 192 degrees for a duration of maybe 30 mins or so, and this stuff has shown no signs of break down.
I'll see if I can find out who makes it. I use it in the field when I have to change out a jumper at cell sites.. from flex line to hard line.
here it is again if ya'll missed it before, she ain't perty... but then again... who's going to see it if she's undar duh hood?
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgearheadkustoms.com%2Fhhocellrev21.jpg&hash=e45c82853d5d80b4b2a4392e494927cebbbff792)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgearheadkustoms.com%2Fhhocellrev22.jpg&hash=dd5e785ab95153ea41a8c3c24d93e7cb0b4cebdb)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgearheadkustoms.com%2Fhhocellrev23.jpg&hash=4bd8d05fc7e3ad382d5c6ba34cfe7efc2f84fa0a)
Thats good but you have gaps between the walls and the plates where you get voltage leaks , seal the edges of the plates to the walls of the tub.
k i found some stuff that is urethane, and its used to glue shingles and stuff to your roof, weatherproof, waterproof, and heat resistant cause roofs get hot (prob what grumpy was talking about on page 30 something or other). anyways, i know the stuff your talking about keithturtle, i used to work at a bodyshop. problem is, the 3m is 15 bucks at autozone. stuff i found is 3.89 a tube, and it looks to have some of the same ingredients as i stopped on the way to home depot to read the label on the 3m. so if it works, cool, cheap alternative, if not, i tried, lol. ive got it on some plates gonna give it a good burn in once its dried tomorrow morning and see what kind of results i get, i gotta get some koh. :-\
hey raptor what do you have for spacers between your plates? is that teflon or something?
EDIT nevermind i see that its just what its resting on, it looked from the top view like you had your plates seperated with something white.
I just read a study on urethanes. rated for 225 degrees f in air and 175 degrees F in water for prolonged use (not to say we wont have better results with our types, its yet to be seen obviousy). are we going to see temps above this during everyday use ironhead? on a high note. same study says that its oxygen resistant, lol so at least were good on that part of it.
S.C. I actually have 1/4 inch tile spacers in between the plates. I took the + and cut the sides off the plus shape to end up with a " l " then I placed these all the way to the outside edges centered, once all the spacers were in. I used a big clamp to hold them in position(all in a row) then layed the rubber down the sides, put plastic over the butyl to seal the sides of the plates.
Although, I just happened across some I believe to be Bakelite.. it's small sheets of the material PCB's are made on.
-rapttor
Try using .025 weedeater cord. And make sure you use a bubbler.....the flame can retrace into the electrolyser and explode!
;)
yeah, big badaboom.. I've seen it happen... to other experimenters, bubblers / flame arrestors are a must....
Rapptor,
I have made a cell like yours before. Amp leaked and the overall performance was far from expected. After I sealed the cell tightly, I totally realised the importance of separation of each partition. Save more power and produce more HHO!
I just want to share what I did before. Thanks!
raptor excellent idea. the inside of the roof glue still ist solidified so the test may have to wait for 12 more hours or something, i think im gonna go put it out in the sun to dry. time to work on my pulsing circuit.....
Ironhead....this is a company in the states that makes these units right? I don't have an eBay account so I will have too purchase off of the web. Probably allot of other people too.
Have you had a chance too try out the new pulser?
Quote from: IronHead on June 16, 2007, 04:22:01 PM
I just bought one of these PWM units to test and see if it is a good solution for some of you , and it's low cost .
http://cgi.ebay.com/PC-Interface-PWM-Control-Hydrogen-motors-KIT_W0QQitemZ270130064049QQihZ017QQcategoryZ78190QQcmdZViewItem
I am working on arranging something outside of ebay as well. I have many servers they can do a webpage on. I will do this free of charge if they can hep us out with what we are doing .
And the PWM should be here in a couple of days
Perfect.....thats good ta hear. Thanks
I got both mine yesterday, loaded the software and ready to see how it behaves. Program lets y'all log settings, date-stamp and make notes. Simple but effective. If it's slow in the jungle tonite I oughta get some time in on it, jes runnin' a 6V motor to get used to the program...They won't let me break water here...
I assembled (well, sorta) a urethane cell after I got up; lack of sleep messed with the plate count. Anyhow, I got some good pics and will try and assemble a slideshow and post it in a few hours.
That slide stuff is terra unfamiliararis to this old turtle... ignorance will likely be reflected <grin>
Back to work
Turtle
Quote from: IronHead on June 18, 2007, 10:46:38 AM
For those that need some basics in electronics. This should get you up to par pretty quick for up and coming conversations .
Practical guide of basic electronics
http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/files/patrickkelly/Tutorial.pdf
-thought i would add this one to the list it seems a little lengthier but still pretty good
http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/electricCircuits/DC/index.html
Hey, this thread is really going great.
I've been researching all the links posted and came across this.
http://www.rexresearch.com/puharich/1puhar.htm
This is a great read for anyone interested in resonant freq of H2O, not to mention his patent and very detailed description of the process. ;D
I feel that this info from Motorcoach1 should be posted again and again you will see this pop up from time to time as it is of ut most importance .Make sure you "kit up" before working with your cell.
"A little knowledge is important and i hope some one has brought this up. SS has chrome in it and the first few times you run your unit to make hydrogen , There will be a small amount of yellowish color grime in the bottom. This is chromium oxide that comes out of the SS. where gloves when handling this material it is hazardous and will cause health problems! Dispose of properly. we want everyone around a long time. Have fun building and saving. we need a Green World. Thank you IronHead for starting this thread, I've been playing around with this a while , I;m running a 460cid Smiley works for meee ....Mike.... now back to the TPU thread ."
Great work Mike keep on truckin
IronHead
Here's the details on assembling the urethane sided cell.
link :
http://s237.photobucket.com/albums/ff213/keithturtle/?action=view¤t=urethanemovie_0001.flv
Turtle
Just finished gooooopin up all those holes in my plates..Thank god there was only 2 holes per plate but, shoud be good to go.....now onward to find pvc material to build Ironheads new cell design. A great place is the dollar store to buy 1' x 2' cutting boards 6 bucks each ahhhh not toooo bad (try explaining that to the wife) LOL...Shouldn't take too long. I got some great ideas to go along with this one...AGAIN THANK YOU IRONHEAD ;D
Let that be a lesson to all who have wholes in there plates...Stupid me put those holes there for easy filling and gas out but anyway. Sucks to be me right now.
PL construction adhesive...... got some info on the 3.89 urethane i found. doesnt seem to have the superglue holding strength the windshield stuff does, but i also didnt sand my plates, im pretty sure it will bond better with some nice scratches. on a positive note i exposed it to 24v 10a for 4 hours and i also boiled it for a half hour and it didnt degrade or leave any reside in my water on either occasion, i still have to get ahold of some koh and test it for chemical resistance but so far i think ive found my gasket maker. it wont be good to glue material together plastic wise. but i like to use screws to hold together my plastic anyways. so just to let you guys know i think i found a cheap option if need be. im holding the piece in my hands right now and it dries pretty hard and stiff.
BTW turtle i love the video, lol... seriously though good call on the adhesive
Just a couple of questions...
s_c_engineering; umm dosen't pl premium expand? Just a question because when I was doing the oak for my flooring on my stairs I was told not to use that stuff just the old regular pl, they say it expands and will cause it to lift before it cures, or while it is curing....I think.
and second
Ironhead; What water flow rate should we be looking at? does it matter all that much besides for cooling off the electrolyte / water in the cell?
not enough for me to notice. looked the same when it was cured as when i put it on, and it didnt seem very porous or anything when i ripped it apart. ill keep my eye out on my next test with it though. thanks for the tip maybe it expands enough when doing wood flooring to throw it off a bit cause you have some pretty tight clearances when your trying to make the joints and whatnot fit. the package says its for roofing.
hkyle;
the expansion issue is more on the order of gorilla glue or liquid polyurethane- that stuff foams and pushes yer parts that ain't clamped plum outa whack.
s_c;
I have my doubts as to how well that PL will bond to metal, 'specially if it ain't ground on real good.
I used a case of it building the garage and lab, but I ain't used none on stainless yet. I got a stack to bond- mebbe I'll try some there.
I tried to jes add that last plate, moving the end plate, but when I released the clamp, all them spacers slid down into the goo... man, what a mess! That mistake cost me two hours!
Time to feed the turtles...
Keith
has anyone tried automotive body panel glue? The same stuff manufactures use, just a thought.
I've used the lord brand on cars with outstanding results, but the cost is quite high for this assembly application. However, in prototype runs it might be a justified expense... that stuff is engineered to stand up to corrosive environs- I jes got some to patch up holes in the floor of the TurtleBenz... might oughta get a plate stack ready whenever I bond in the floorboard plates, but that's a month away.
Turtle
Hey guys, I'm following along on the side here just looking for a "so simple it's stupid" method of either sealing up the sides and or, Something that can be used on the sides to seal it up, but yet at the same time, allow for configuration changes on the fly... I'm experimenting but.. chasing this down at the same time. I'll post my findings when I come across something that's worth the time & effort, not each rampant thought that races through my head... if I did that... you guys would be pretty tired of me vewy vewy qwikwee(elmer fudd voice).
ovah andoubt
-rapttor
One word or name , Dremal
http://www.cporotarytools.com
Bits
http://www.widgetsupply.com/page/WS/CTGY/dremel
The ultimate Cell building tool.
Hey Rapttor,
Try something like this.....you can add plates, change spacing between plates. Could then just slide right into your test container.
Got a dremal?
I've actually got 2 Dremels, a rotozip.. oh hell.. a ton of pwr tools. I used my dremel alot until I recently picked up a similar unit but marketed in the wood working world as a cable driven chuck, that gives you much more versatility.. and it came with a foot pedal to vary the speed.
What is that material HKyle? Looks like either Teflon or Styrofoam.
My next step is 500+ degree hi temp gasket maker, that will seal the edges for sure.
sorry I'm not trying to drag the group backwards.
-rapttor
a bandsaw works good too if ya gots one of them.... as would a hacksaw i think. depends on how thick your steel is, i was using 24awg so a bandsaw blade width was poifect.....
That would be HDPE (High Density Polyethylene)
here is a link to some stuff....pretty cheap
http://k-mac-plastics.com/hdpe-cutting-board.htm
Quote from: rapttor on June 20, 2007, 12:41:56 PM
I've actually got 2 Dremels, a rotozip.. oh hell.. a ton of pwr tools. I used my dremel alot until I recently picked up a similar unit but marketed in the wood working world as a cable driven chuck, that gives you much more versatility.. and it came with a foot pedal to vary the speed.
What is that material HKyle? Looks like either Teflon or Styrofoam.
My next step is 500+ degree hi temp gasket maker, that will seal the edges for sure.
sorry I'm not trying to drag the group backwards.
-rapttor
Cutting board plastic cool, I didn't know the name of it... sweet
thanks man.
@ s_c yes I have a 14" Bandsaw, but it's got a 3/4 X 10tpi blade in it right now that's dull from all the AL I've cut, I need to change it up for maybe a 1/2 X 6 to 8 tpi.
My plates are 1/8th ss so they are just a little bit too big for a blade's width, but I think I'm going to try the circular saw, on a slide, then slice the big piece into the right widths.
-rapttor
so have you guys tested hdpe cutting boards with koh solution? before i go buy some of this stuff? jsut ordered some koh, all teh damn tweakers around here have caused the stores to stop selling it. damn meth makers
I haven't tested it with KOH but I have tested it with Lye and it works fine....I can't purchase KOH either....damn meth makers >:(
btw i have enough components to make around 10 pulsing boards so if anyone is interested let me know, i can either sell you the components and you can go to radioshack and get a board to make it on, or i can put one together for you. i just bought a bunch of the stuff cause its cheaper that way. so i can pass on some savings if anyones interested ill post up a pic of what ive got done so far later on tonight. im just waiting on my mosfets. its for the meyers style circuit that was posted earlier on in this thread like 40 pages ago, lol.
What kind of price will we be looking at?
Quote from: s_c_engineering on June 20, 2007, 03:36:20 PM
btw i have enough components to make around 10 pulsing boards so if anyone is interested let me know, i can either sell you the components and you can go to radioshack and get a board to make it on, or i can put one together for you. i just bought a bunch of the stuff cause its cheaper that way. so i can pass on some savings if anyones interested ill post up a pic of what ive got done so far later on tonight. im just waiting on my mosfets. its for the meyers style circuit that was posted earlier on in this thread like 40 pages ago, lol.
pretty cheap, let me look at my totals and ill see what i can do. do you want just the components? oh and the 50k pots are on backorder but they should be here hopefully next week, so i can leave this out and you can get it locally from radioshack or we can add em into the price. i ordered em cause they are only like 25c a piece online rather than 2.50 ea at radio shack.
ok looking like 15 dollars + shipping for
100ohm x6
220ohm x1
820ohm x1
100mf x2
47mf x1
10mf x1
1mf x1
220nf x1
100nf x1
10nf x3
1n4148 x4
1n4007 x1
555 timer x2
mosfet 200v18amp x1
50k pot x2
20k pot x2
(they dont have 10k at that price but these will work, or i can order 5k's and use 2 per side, im going with 20k's)
both switches
8 pin dip sockets x2
(if you want to get your own pots cause the 50k are on back order and the 20k arent 10k, make it 14 plus shipping)
not included:
the fuse holders, board, terminals, box, and rotary switches can all be had at radioshack, or i can get them assemble the box etc if you dont feel comfortable.
not trying to make money here just got some extra stuff and i know its easier to get pretty much all of it at once cause ive already made 3 dif orders to get just this stuff
hey ironhead... are we going to need another circuit that pulses around 18 hz to drive a coil converting the hydrogen like the xogen patent explains cause i want to build it into the board if we do. and if thats the case what sort of amperage are we looking at. thanks
heres the link http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2102.50.html (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2102.50.html)
you got a link to the cutting boards
Just an Fyi, lye is KOH, or at lease potash lye is which is the common type. There is also naoh, sodium based lye, but it is very uncommon. Table salt is? NaCL, water H2O, Lye KOH.
Quote from: hkyle on June 20, 2007, 03:07:00 PM
I haven't tested it with KOH but I have tested it with Lye and it works fine....I can't purchase KOH either....damn meth makers >:(
Do we know of the best thickness and surface area yet?
Does someone have a calculation?
What is everyone using for 316L thickness? 1/16 ? 1/32?
does it even matter?
naoh is the only stuff I can get...Thanks for the info.
Quote from: d3adp00l on June 21, 2007, 02:39:53 AM
Just an Fyi, lye is KOH, or at lease potash lye is which is the common type. There is also naoh, sodium based lye, but it is very uncommon. Table salt is? NaCL, water H2O, Lye KOH.
Quote from: hkyle on June 20, 2007, 03:07:00 PM
I haven't tested it with KOH but I have tested it with Lye and it works fine....I can't purchase KOH either....damn meth makers >:(
BasementExperiments The thickness of the stainless does not matter, BUT don't go to thin..You can use either 1/16 or 1/32 one is just cheaper than the other.
Quote from: BasementExperiments on June 21, 2007, 08:57:29 AM
Do we know of the best thickness and surface area yet?
Does someone have a calculation?
What is everyone using for 316L thickness? 1/16 ? 1/32?
does it even matter?
united nuclear has Koh
http://www.unitednuclear.com/
s c engineering:
Why not go over to "plasma electrolysis by Ironhead" and offer an electronic box to run the tungsten plasma device, since you have all the parts. Needs to pulse and Moab made his to change polarity every other pulse. This requires more sophisticated electronics than running the electrolyser, which basically needs 1.5 volts per cell, no pulsing required really. It doesn't require the "tuning" that the tungsten rod requires.
Thanks.
Urethane cell build 2 is under way. I'm adding a water injection manifold in one side to accomodate circulation and keep temps down at high amps. Details and pics in a few days.
BTW- that entry by PULSED) reflects a tremendous amount of time invested on his part. He's trying to articulate the process as he understands it, and I believe he's done a right good job of it. I ain't sure how it lines up with what IronHead has learned in his doin's... Pulsed) seems to be sticking closely to Meyer's path, whilst I H has gone beyond, yea, far beyond, where Stan dropped off (sorry).
Or at least that's my view from the pond...
Turtle
Ok Guys
Bill over at www.chapp.com is going to be working with me to create and sell electronics for up and coming cell works. Along with what he has now for small experimental cells like you are working on now. These are simple DC pulsers no reverse.
Higher voltage / amperage multi out put devices are now in the works.
G'day Ironhead
I tried to buy his stuff from ebay but they wont supply outside USA
Can you have a word with Bill and see if he can make an exception?
I want all the " buy it now " items on ebay which totals US$90.50 excluding shipping
One off each
You guys are doing great!
Regards
bornman88
Quote from: IronHead on June 22, 2007, 06:45:53 PM
Ok Guys
Bill over at www.chapp.com is going to be working with me to create and sell electronics for up and coming cell works. Along with what he has now for small experimental cells like you are working on now. These are simple DC pulsers no reverse.
Higher voltage / amperage multi out put devices are now in the works.
Quote from: bornman88 on June 22, 2007, 08:07:09 PM
G'day Ironhead
I tried to buy his stuff from ebay but they wont supply outside USA
Can you have a word with Bill and see if he can make an exception?
I want all the " buy it now " items on ebay which totals US$90.50 excluding shipping
One off each
You guys are doing great!
Regards
bornman88
Quote from: IronHead on June 22, 2007, 06:45:53 PM
Ok Guys
Bill over at www.chapp.com is going to be working with me to create and sell electronics for up and coming cell works. Along with what he has now for small experimental cells like you are working on now. These are simple DC pulsers no reverse.
Higher voltage / amperage multi out put devices are now in the works.
Call me
Quote from: IronHead on June 22, 2007, 06:45:53 PM
Ok Guys
Bill over at www.chapp.com is going to be working with me to create and sell electronics for up and coming cell works. Along with what he has now for small experimental cells like you are working on now. These are simple DC pulsers no reverse.
Higher voltage / amperage multi out put devices are now in the works.
Your just hell bent on makeing me lazy arnt ya Ironhead. ::). lol
Just kidding thats great news!! Get em while theayre hot!! Moab
You have enough to do Moab you ain't fooling no one.
There is one thing that I have failed to explain in construction as well. This has to do with sealing the cell and it must be sealed this includes the positive end plates that face no neutral plate. They must be sealed from leaking voltage into the water.
IronHead
WOW. Thats i great deal on the PWMs. Dang. whish i knew about this guy back when When i started fooling around with building the circuits. would have saved me alot of time.. I will be doing bisiness there. Build em up Bill. your about to have a good year!
And you're right, Sir. I do have alot to do! Moab.
Seal the pos end plates? Makes sense. Tell ya what... I'll break in the next cell with 'em open, quantify gas output for unit power, then seal ends and run it again, same power and measure gas... that oughta put a face on just how much loss we had.
Turtle
:-[ rebuilding again.. I'll post the results / findings when Cell #3..err 4 is finished.
Hey rapptor;
ya want me to send ya a couple extra sets of plates and a tube of that urethane? I got plenty and might save y'all the mess of cutting the old apart... lemme know
Turtle
This post is for almost everyone not just the few on this page.
All you have to do is pull out the positive plates and coat the back of them with GOOP or urethane its the same thing GOOP is just clear and you can buy it at walmart ,homedepot,or a drugstore for that matter.. Anyway this is why I designed the cell the way I did on page 14 but this does not seem to be going very well. Slotting is not that hard to do ,a simple saw blade would work.but...
I am getting so much hate mail because I have not gone into electronics yet . When maybe 5% have built the cell right . You need to have good outcome with straight DC first. Buzzing the cell is not going to cause a massive outpour of gas if you have next to nothing to start with.
Thank you for your attempts , Maybe you guys will come up with something better than pg 14 specs in the long run.
This is the simplest I can offer. Others are far more complex and un-doable from what have seen as far as builds go here.
Hate mail? Dude i'm not feeling the love. Hey i'm eager to move forword. But will hold mt place and stay with the guoup and learn all i can. Thats why this thread is the way it is. Teach our hungry minds!! So far i think its moveing along well. Hate mail aside that is,,Time to go seal that lil cell, Moab.
Good Morning,
who knows Dr. Aspden?
Here is the way Mayer locks his tube cells to aetheric energy
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=GB2390941&F=0&OREQ=1&&CY=ep&LG=de
This Patent includes further Information how it works.
With or without water inside.
This are the basics in F re NRG.
Fasten your seatbells...
All Books and papers from Dr. Aspden could be free! downloaded from:
http://www.aspden.org/books/Booklist.html
Please read all..
All Energy Science Reports are here for free! download (sparky or not, there is everything)
http://www.aspden.org/reports/reportlist.htm
His Newest Book could be downloaded free! here or buy it
http://www.aspden.org/books/2edpoc/2edpoccontents.htm
What do you need more to end your discussion.
###Step in FREE NRG###
karLfunkel
I am getting so much hate mail because I have not gone into electronics yet . When maybe 5% have built the cell right . You need to have good outcome with straight DC first. Buzzing the cell is not going to cause a massive outpour of gas if you have next to nothing to start with.
Hate Mail? Man, you've got sooo much on your plate at the moment, don't even waste your time on these "ZERO's" Better yet, forward them to me & I'll school them in Runts, Fragments... Orphans & Buffer overflows. (if you are a geek you know what I'm reffering to).
Self replicating Fuzzy-Bunny type stuff...
-rapttor
MUAHAHAHAHA lol man I needed that thanks. I now have a shylock thanks man
I just found out Kokomo changed to Bye and is now in read only mode for overboard ranting. Sorry man hope you are still working on the fun stuff in the background
If it will help the group, I can cut and slot the plastic for anyone that wants it. Just send an email and I will get back to you.
Played with lanthanated tungsten, not much difference from other tungsten that I could tell, except that the solution turned a very pretty dark blue.
The little booster that I built does actually work. Bumped mpg to 41. yea. Of course it should be more mpg, but when driving the mr2, I just cannot keep the rpms down. I like the sound of 7k rpm.
Just got a laptop so that I can get busy with megasquirt, etc.
I put together one of Dave Lawsons circuits (based on 555 chip). Maybe I screwed up the chips or the mosfet, but I'm not showing any reaction on the scope. I will try again. I will also get one of chaps controlers. Thanks for that IH.
Got to find some good amplifiers. My signal generator only puts out mA. IH, I would be interested in hearing how you are arranging your "bomb box". I can't hide behind my wife forever.
Finally got the Mouser catalog. It took me four hours to make an order without it. It could have been done sooner, if I knew what the hell I was ordering (at least now I know what surface mount really means,,ha).
Edit
Understand that my box was built for all hot zone experiments
For the box it should be open top and vented. I vented the box right out to the roof.
The box was built with layers of Kevlar and S-glass. "Was" because I have to rebuild it.
Kevlar on the out side layers as it has very good tear resistance and stretch strength .
S-glass on the inside as it has very good compression strength .
I used Epoxy Resin for the composite as it is much more flexible and has superior strength to Polyester Resin.
Installed 1" Lexan view window
Here is a layout of its design. This is easier then to try and explain it.
This box worked but the next will be much better. I will make the window small and install it on the inside instead of bolting it to the outside like this.
Thanks. That gave me some good ideas.
Not to be off track, just some new info I have seen.
It appears that a 50% HHO/air mixture is viable for combustion in an engine. Based on a 2L engine it would seem that 500 l/m is the goal to hit. Anyone out there have a volt/amp per litre number to put to this data?
The best I can find right now is 715 watts per litre per minute, which would give 357500 watts per min to produce enough hho to run a car down the road. Approx 479hp. Doesn't look good, but with some higher eff cells could look good fast. The test cell for the baseline wasn't very eff. at all.
So for my 160cc testbed engine, it would take about 40 litres per minute to run or 28600 watts. A 160cc engine is also known s a 5.5hp engine which is often found on 3500 watt gensets (imagine that 5.5X746watts=4103watts). So we have a little work to do yet. But I am sure IH has a long road for us to walk down, and getting more eff. production is on that road.
Alright more data is in 12v 50a - 3.75l per min. Which is 160watts per litre per min. Which then translates to 6400 watts per litre per min. Now thats real close. another 55% reduction in electricity, and its a done deal.
This is not a rant, I appreciate your research.
Wow, these numbers keep getting bigger and bigger every week.
Of cource these numbers are based on brute force
Fuel enhancer is a good thing to focus on to start out . These are very big and discouraging numbers to most. But if you got a 10% to 30% decrease on gasoline consumption , would it be worth the time and effort of building an HHO cell that you could further evolve in time.Not to mention the cleaner burn of gasoline itself using HHO lowering emissions greatly. Wonder how much you would save in one year of the operation of an HHO cell in your car.
What would 10,000 people save in a year just on 10 to 30% . Add this into a hybrid gasoline/electric/HHO or a compressed Hydrogen car H/HHO. Or from what you now know you might separate the HHO to use the H and O2 in an electric fuelcell car.O2 greatly enhances Fuelcell technology. This takes abit more work but can be done. We are talking strictly enhancer at the moment .
You might even build an HHO separating cell and store H and O2 at you home like many do with propane. Storing it for fuel and to cook your steaks or weld up the old steel table outside.
The Write Brothers did not built a Boeing 747 to my knowledge
Evolution of this technology can be just as effective and you guys are the evolvers if thats even a word.
Some of you may go on to run a car strictly on HHO . Hell for that matter one of you might invent a new engine based on this technology , implosion engine anyone? I am not even going to get into the massive force you could create if you could get to -100 vacuum.
Onward HHO Soldiers
IronHead
@d3adp00l
Hey just so you know...This is where I was before I started at uverunity.com.....
150% efficiency
efficiency is good to have.
Quote from: bornman88 on April 13, 2007, 08:49:38 PM
"My current cell is running off of 54 volts 6 amps and making 6-7 L/m. That's 150% faraday current efficient.
Not too sure where to go next..."
That is GREAT output 324 watt with around 390 liters per hour ( 6/7 l/m)
That equates to 0.8watt per liter of gas produced!
Are you using closed cell application?
"It appears that a 50% HHO/air mixture is viable for combustion in an engine"
Hmm, I thought it was 23%. I know H will burn at a 4% mix; it just won't have much power. Has anyone seen a chart or formula for power:%mixture ratio? I know Meyer had some numbers, but I have a problem believing anything he wrote (smart guy but tried to hide everything, so credibility is nil without confirmation). Anyway, what I remember is someone comparing H to gasolene, showing that gas takes up 3% of the space in the combustion chamber because it is a liquid, while H would need 23% of the space because it is already gaseous. How they came up with this number is something I do not remember. The guys that were doing the land speed record using H by having the throttle wide open always and adjusting their speed by increasing the H:air mixture probably had some relevant info,,I just can't recall it.
Guys, I haven't yet done any testing on this, but I would appreciate your thoughts. We can adjust the amp draw by adjusting the amount of catalyst in solution. We can also adjust the size of the ss plates. Are larger plates more productive? Does the size of the plates alter the heat produced?
IH, playing with this booster is fun and I "think" I am learning some stuff with it, but it is just playing. What you are doing is way, way more important.
Thank you "yikes
Well here is half the cell running at 24VDC ,8 amps and 42khz dc pulse. Does size matter maybe and maybe not, but if we put 10 of these cells together I think we would get a nice gas flow. And the bottom is still open on this one. Yes more heat in a smaller cell with the same amp and volt rating, but we can deal with heat as long as the cell is highly productive. We will be scaling this cell up in a modular way. What you have now is module #1
3/8" plate spacing is optimal for a free standing cell .This 1/4" space plate cell is going to be pumped , moving water through the cell cavities . 1/4" seems to be optimal for a pumped cell.
Half cell . Here you can see voltage leaking off the backside of the negative plate. That leak is not only a small amount of HHO but voltage that is not going through the plates as well ,dumping heat into the water.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsVTbmWX_lI
Full cell being adjusted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IDJAcELsWs
Sealed Pumped S-Cell soon using this base cell.
Onward I say through the muck and blood, burnt and broken
IronHead
Hey IH,
Great videos as always. In the vid where you sweep the frequencies it appears that there's two hotspots where the gas production is highest. Is this two seperate frequencies or are you going down to 20KHz and back up the optimum frequency. The reason I ask is that it reminds me of something mentioned in another replication project (the Marks TPU thread) where it was found that when two resonant frequencies were put in together, an energy output much higher than the sum was observed. I don't know if that's something you've tried, but it's similiar in thoery to the Boyce PWM3 workings.
I know it's not the same device, but the idea of two or more resonant frequencies going into one cell is something I'm hoping to try soon.
Anyway, thanks for sharing as always. Hope to post some images of my own project very soon. As for those looking for electronics, there are lots of pwm schematics floating around on the internet. Waterforfuel.com has a perfectly good set of plans for purchase that can be used to build a versatile and easily modifiable PWM.
RD
It is really nice to see people notice these things.
Thats two different freqs at 2 different sweet spots as it runs down to 20khz. I starting working on multi and freq combining just before I got into the RF injector cell. I sort of let the idea go as I was spending so much time on RF injection . I am hoping someone will take up where I left off on this concept, maybe you will be looking into this ?
BTW A very good build on the PWM there
Keep up the good work
IronHead
Hi IH,
Thanks for the reply. The PWM has six seperate drivers so that I can run up to six cells from the one PWM, or of I prefer I can run upto six PWMs (at different freq's) into upto six cells. Multiple frequency cells is somethings I'm really interested in. I'm hoping to run different combinations through a torroidal coil and see what happens.
BTW, if anyone in the UK is looking for a good stainless supplier, metalsdirect.co.uk has a massive range of reclaimed 304 and 316 which they can cut to size. I've used them before and their prices are great.
RD
If you are going to get into this I would recommend the Keely papers on sympathetic vibration these are frequencies that coralate to one another. Dale Pond explains this well . Dale Pond is an authority on Keely's works .Also Pond is the guy that inspired Meyer to do work in HHO.The conference you see here Stan Meyer was present in the audience. Although this gets abit stange there is good info here to start.
If you are interest I have many pieces to this path.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9125003792513982191
Just thought I would share this with you guys...not sure if anyone here has them but.....
First is a hydrogen required document...Tells you aprox how much hydrogen you need to run what size of cc engine.
and the other is a faraday calculations...tells you how efficient your cell is according to faraday.
Hope this helps.
So far very interesting....Thanks for the vid Ironhead.
Hey was the 42.8k a in harmonic tone of water? Disrupts the physiscal tone of all the particles working together...If ya introduce a in harmonic tone all hell breaks looose?
"you don't have to hit it with a sledge hammer, it will just come apart"
maybe?
Quote from: IronHead on June 25, 2007, 04:06:19 PM
If you are going to get into this I would recommend the Keely papers on sympathetic vibration these are frequencies that coralate to one another. Dale Pond explains this well . Dale Pond is an authority on Keely's works .Also Pond is the guy that inspired Meyer to do work in HHO.The conference you see here Stan Meyer was present in the audience. Although this gets abit stange there is good info here to start.
If you are interest I have many pieces to this path.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9125003792513982191
Yes right around there is the outer tone of the water molecule structure ,many vibration with in . 42k to 47k depending on the water type and a few other variations. Water has a sort of memory so it can take on other tones and balance itself with new vibrations. Using the tone that is already there in the molcule is not going to rip it apart but it will ease it . You would have to find a much higher sympathetic tone to cause the base tone to change and there for become unstable. Such is the case in my RF studies .
This is all going to sound crazy to many I think
Quote from: IronHead on June 25, 2007, 06:43:55 PM
This is all going to sound crazy to many I think
Not crazy to me. Perfectly sane.
I am going to reword this I screwed it up abit as I am doing so much at the same time.
I will get more in depth next time round.
In order to understand the thing I will talk about you will need some base line understanding so watch the video a few time. The whole 3 hours 2 parts
This is the only thing I know of that will help you understand my phraseology .
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9125003792513982191
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5430570751600484561
WOW an honest example of truth being stranger than fiction. Thats some wold stuff IronHead
4real
I was not sure anyone was ready for this . But I think from the feedback I will get into this in depth . Thank you, please watch as much as you can the more you do the more you will understand what I am going to be talking about here on out.
Thank you
This demands a new thread!!!
(Slams Mountain Dew - eyes cross - goes catatonic)
ironhead awesome work. go ahead at full speed!!! ;D :o ive been planning on using multiple frequencies also. the KOH has arrived wow what a difference in brute force method. noticed the changes in amps, etc. 1st controller will be done tomorrow and then i will be working on my multiple frequency controller. hopefully with some of those chapps chips youve been talking about!!! nice pic of the 6 channel. :o
I've watched the first half, and this is filling in alot of blanks for me from a lot of different angles... it's making sense now. To think Keely was doing this stuff over 100 years ago is just mind blowing. Helped me better understand the hydrosonic pump I was building based on Grigg's design, which I put on the back burner for now.
Makes me wonder though, at what frequency does a magnetic field from say .. a neo magnet start to break down & does it release energy?
thanks for sharing I.H.
-rapttor
wow. I'm stoked. I like this angle 8). Thanks bro ;). Moab
At 54 volts and 6 amps and 6/7 l per m, that would be 49.8 watts per litre per min. That would be a great beginning.
With a the fore mentioned 160cc engine, 40cc X 49.8 = 1993.8 watts to run the engine with 50% hho/air. So about half the produced power would feed the engine its fuel and half to do everything else. Now thats what I would call O/U.
Quote from: hkyle on June 25, 2007, 11:32:18 AM
@d3adp00l
Hey just so you know...This is where I was before I started at uverunity.com.....
150% efficiency
efficiency is good to have.
Quote from: bornman88 on April 13, 2007, 08:49:38 PM
"My current cell is running off of 54 volts 6 amps and making 6-7 L/m. That's 150% faraday current efficient.
Not too sure where to go next..."
That is GREAT output 324 watt with around 390 liters per hour ( 6/7 l/m)
That equates to 0.8watt per liter of gas produced!
Are you using closed cell application?
The 50% is based off the only info I have seen for hho/air fuel mixture tests. The test wasn't 100% clean, but it was close enough for me to have a good amount of faith that 50% will proly get an engine running well enough to be useful. If someone out there wants to check on it an post a vid I would love to see the data.
@IH Like you said a long time ago, I want to see engines running on this stuff. The more knowledge we all have about what it takes to do so the better.
And just so everyone knows, not all of the info I find is irrefutable, its just info that I have seen in real life, on a credible vid, or well documented by historic science. But I will say this, I don't repeat something that is questionable. If I tell others something I have alot of faith in it. In other words I watch very carefully not to talk out my hind end, and will always side with conservative not boastful.
But if 23% will run an engine then it just means its twice as easy as what I thought.
Quote from: yikes on June 25, 2007, 12:17:23 PM
"It appears that a 50% HHO/air mixture is viable for combustion in an engine"
Hmm, I thought it was 23%. I know H will burn at a 4% mix; it just won't have much power. Has anyone seen a chart or formula for power:%mixture ratio? I know Meyer had some numbers, but I have a problem believing anything he wrote (smart guy but tried to hide everything, so credibility is nil without confirmation). Anyway, what I remember is someone comparing H to gasolene, showing that gas takes up 3% of the space in the combustion chamber because it is a liquid, while H would need 23% of the space because it is already gaseous. How they came up with this number is something I do not remember. The guys that were doing the land speed record using H by having the throttle wide open always and adjusting their speed by increasing the H:air mixture probably had some relevant info,,I just can't recall it.
Guys, I haven't yet done any testing on this, but I would appreciate your thoughts. We can adjust the amp draw by adjusting the amount of catalyst in solution. We can also adjust the size of the ss plates. Are larger plates more productive? Does the size of the plates alter the heat produced?
IH, playing with this booster is fun and I "think" I am learning some stuff with it, but it is just playing. What you are doing is way, way more important.
Quote from: IronHead on June 25, 2007, 08:49:59 PM
I was not sure anyone was ready for this . But I think from the feedback I will get into this in depth . Thank you, please watch as much as you can the more you do the more you will understand what I am going to be talking about here on out.
Thank you
Well. there goes the thread for me. hmm , From now on I wont know whht the hell you guys are talking about..
Btw 12k and 22.1k works well for me. Just depends on the moon. ::)
Well it looks as if this little roller coast ride just got to the peak of the first dip and now its time to rip through the ride. And we were all thrilled to death with the climb. Hold on to something...
This is not going to turn into a JoeCell kind of deal . Where depending on your mood , where you stand and the position of the moon effects operration of a cell . Nor is this going to turn into a Dale Pond type conference.
But if we are going to deal with the nature of water we need to understand alittle bit about its structure . If we are going to vibrate , oscillate and resonate a structure and its components then there is much we should talk about on how ,why and where.
Break the bonds
IronHead
Hi all and respected IH Guru,
My first post here. Been following this tread for 2 weeks now. I first came to OU Forum for TPU replication but I'm also looking to save gas on my Mini Van. So I'll play a little here with you guys if I can. I saw both Dale Pond video's of Keely's work some months ago, great stuff. Also Victor Schauberger had much knowledge of the nature of water. He also tested and develop water implosion. If one knows Keely's stuff you will find Schauberger parallels to it. Here are some video links:
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5643559434275921302
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=1598503208400404583
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4770477589537728517
I finished the test cell yesterday and energized it as per IH instruction steps and then let it run in the natural spring water for 20 min. but next to nothing in bubbles. The stainless I used has no magnet attraction and both sides were sanded with 40 grit before cutting in 2" squares and 2"x 3".
@IH, have you tested that PWM from the eBay seller yet?
You may also notice that my cell box has grooves cut at every 1/8" so to test the results of different space effects on the cell.
Luc
very nice build gotoluc
Just add a little KOH or Lye at a time and watch the bubbles. Keep an eye on your amps as you do this, they will climb fast. You need an electrolyte to make this cell work in brute force mode. Before you start pulsing you want to have good solid output at all voltages . As the voltage is increased so will the output as you may well know.
Slide out those positive plates and coat the back side with GOOP or any automotive grade urethane sealer .This will seal off voltage leaks,
I am working on the cell now finding which frequency is the best and in a day or so will set that freq into the PMW and do a video with it running. There have been some minor changes to the cell so it will require new tuning as you saw in the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IDJAcELsWs
so what kind of pump do you use to pump water thru your cells ironhead? and how do you stop the voltage from leaking from one cell to the next if you have holes drilled in the acrylic? thanks
You can not completely stop voltage leaks but you will cut the leaks down greatly if you just have some small holes to the cell cavity. There is a way but to far to go for the difference. That is attaching a tube for each hole and running all the tubes to a junction type box away from the cell but there really is no need.
This it the pump I use ( Eheim 1046 ) for the bench experiments
http://www.highspeedpc.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=E1046&Category_Code=Pump
And in the Cherokee I use and RV water pump like this but there is no model number on mine . Looks the same anyway
http://www.dyersonline.com/pc-381-160-shurflo-12v-dc-fresh-water-pump.aspx
Keep in mind these pumps have to be flow valve tuned as well . That just means put a ball valve on the input of the cell and output of the pump.
awesome, thank you. thats what i was thinking with all the tubes but if the benefits arent that great then holes it is. ;D
"Water has a sort of memory so it can take on other tones and balance itself with new vibrations"
IH, Stan said as much in his tech brief, at the opening. Atoms can think, as unreasonable as that may sound.
But then, what we're doing here is unreasonable by established standards.
I got the Chapps unit running on an old PC- sweet!
Still getting some chokes together to build a tank circuit with smaller cells.
No numbers yet on the U-2 cell... other things in life (darn it)
Thanks again, IronHead for all your leadership in this. Detractors may say all they want; we'll just drive by them waiting in the gas line and fill up at the stream <grin>
Turtle
Thank you everyone . "S-Cell one side" on YouTube #8 Most Discussed : (Today) : Autos & Vehicles
Not only will pulsing extract more HHO but so will moving the water along with vacuum ontop of all of this. The 20" to 25" of vacuum your engine will produce.The whole system can still be under vacuum.
Cell scaling configurations ,SP-Cell , This does not show a cooling system.
We will go over cooling . We have to be careful when designing a cooling system so that HHO does not get trapped in the radiator . There will be a section just based on cooling .
In the second picture I messed up the plate spacing ignore this .
This cell it to show scaling in parallel on the X plane. The first picture also shows scaling on the Y-plane.
Ok guys take a look at this. The first ignition has been slowed way down as it last about 1/120th second or 25% of one frame . This was a unbearable loud Implosion . You will only see some flashes of blue light there is little orange fire . The next ignition is the normal explosion orange flame and the last is a slowed orange flame bang.
The question is, is this the outcome of 33.3 / 66.6 mix causing an implosion or is this something else.
Also in the first pic there is a sort of strange cloud formation or maybe just a flash of energy . What ever it is I have never seen it in any experiment I have done with HHO. That includes all implosion works with 33.3 /66.6
Here are the frames and the video is attached .
Hey Ironhead can you post the video of this...I want to slow it down so I can take a look. Frame by Frame. See if this cloud is being sucked in or being blown out. It could be hho that has not yet been combusted. When combustion started there was enough gas in proximity to be sucked into and then ignited in the Orange flame that has more impurities in it.
Not sure but very interesting.
or a reflection of the torch in mist....ya know rainbow.
it also looks like it blew your torch out after then lit again.
kyle
Thats it ,those two pics I posted are all you will see from any video package this was pulled apart in Sony Vegas video and Adobe Premiere .I did post the video slowed in that frame area .I will put the untouched version here but not for long . Stefan wont want 3 and 4 meg videos laying around.
It looks to me like the cloud thing goes in and up , second pic shows the blue at the top
I need one of those 240 frame per second cameras
My stab in the dark at it would be that the first ignition was a purer form of H, the second pop had oxygen present due to the orange in the flash. If one was lighter and faster burning than the other, the lighter cleaner H may have settled on top like the surface tension of water, trapping the hydroxy slower burning H underneath.
my financed .02
all I can say, this is the loudest bang in and area this size I have heard in years of working with HH0 . Also the pitch is much higher than para or orthohydrogen that I have encountered
Ironhead:
Amazingly good renderings you post. First ones I thought were photos. What software do you use for this?
Robb
3D Studio Max 8 with Splutterfish Brazil render 2.0 here is the kinda stuff I really like to do. Most the stuff in the forum are quickies to show so you can see whats going on the real thing is always hard to tell whats what.
Thats a highly modified Shwinn S750 stand up scooter
http://energy.matrixcore.com/OP/ZeroPoint%20Scooter3.jpg
Nice job man, I dig the inner drive ring setup. Are those BMC motors you have depicted in the rendering? Did this ever come to fruition?
Yeah dude it is about half built , dual 1000watt BMCs running lithion at 48 volts
and the rear wheel setup is from a pocket bike. I feel there is no resign at all to move 2tons of steel, glass, plastic ,and rubber to go buy a 75 cent soda ya know?
Should top out at about 50 mph and hills wont matter.
1000 watters here
http://www.thesuperkids.com/600wahspsuto.html
Dual kit here
http://www.thesuperkids.com/dumoplkitfor.html
Highend batteries here
http://www.forsenusa.com/batteries.html
hydrogen detonation speed can exceed the speed of sound - something like 1200 to 1400 m/s when concentration is about 20%
Nice... I just got my son a razor 650W mx 650.. tops out at 18 - 20mph... hauls 160lbs me pretty good too. Here's another good supplier www.tncscooters.com (http://www.tncscooters.com)
50mph is fast on a little scooter... won't seem it until you catch a bug in the teeth.. LOL. I've had knucles peel back from junebugs on my motorcycle, at 90 they feel like juice filled rocks.
-rapttor
yeah trucks carrying sand on the freeway are fun for miles ::) could you be creating monatomic hydrogen instead of diatomic hydrogen due to the pulsing? are you using one frequency at this point or multiple frequencies?
i know this page is about a joe cell but just read this. it has to do with welders from the 1930's http://educate-yourself.org/lte/joecellhydrogengas12sep04.shtml (http://educate-yourself.org/lte/joecellhydrogengas12sep04.shtml)
if they used voltage thru hydrogen to make monatomic... maybe the voltage between the plates is converting it?
heres another about monatomic
http://yarchive.net/explosives/atomic_hydrogen.html (http://yarchive.net/explosives/atomic_hydrogen.html)
wonder if this is what you were making when you had your problem with your box explosion?
here is something about monatomic permeating things and recombining into diatomic on the other side then building up pressure. as ironhead has been saying we need to be careful. i take it your using something to make sure your crankcase is well vented IH? http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/gen-comm/info-notices/1995/in95020.html (http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/gen-comm/info-notices/1995/in95020.html) :o
if i read that correctly the 316 doesnt isnt permiable to monatomic.... is arcylic, poly, pvc permiable to it?
I really believe this was just a clean 33.3 / 66.6 and she imploded . This is just the best one I ever got. I think implosion might be rare in the way I do things .But it is possible I think to have produced monoatomic like this. If this could be done all of the time imagine and implosion engine and how much power lets say a weedeater size engine could produce . I think pulling a -100 psi vacuum might be possible this way . I am not sure. I have to try and make this happen more and key in on stability if possible.
This is a single frequency , The point of this cell is to keep up with what you are doing here.
What happened in the box RF experiment was not hydrogen gas that was being burned. There was no warning , no bubbles of any kind and no motion that could be detected. There was no flame burn at all. There was a massive expenditure of energy.This force was not implosive. At least not from what I saw and the force blew out.The water chamber was open top and the "Box" was open top, it still blew apart outward. From the damage is seemed to be in all directions.
found a page here about a browns gas electrolyser. claiming 2400 liters per hour of browns gas in a 126 series plate setup at 11 amps at 240v. converted to dc of course. so with added frequencies.... more powerful gas in large amounts
http://amasci.com/weird/bgf1.html (http://amasci.com/weird/bgf1.html)
Cost to Operate Compared to Oxy-Acetylene: p42 " Here we are paying about 4 cents per kilowatt hour.(Canada) Our 2500 Liter/hr electrolyzer draws about 10 kwh. This is 40 cents. At present, this electrolyzer uses about one liter per hour of di stilled water,when producing gas at 2500 liters per hour. I buy my water at 25cents/liter. Total cost per hour=65 cents. I bought my own little oxygen (50 cubic feet) and acetylene(40 cubic feet) bottles years ago. The deal is,I exchange these bottles f or full ones whenever I need more gas, paying for the gas but not paying rent on the bottles. It so happens that if I use my bottles down to dangerously low pressures, I can get 2500 liters of volume out of them. So, if I use gas at 2500 L/h, I can get o ne hour of use. It costs me $52 to fill these bottles. So, total cost per hour is $52. Thus my cost to operate the Brown?s Gas torch is nearly 99% less. ?If I was paying `18 cents per kilowatt hour to operate the Brown?s Gas torch, it would cost $2.05/ hour to operate. (distilled water included) This would be 96% less operating cost. p42.
If Brown's Gas is exposed to a heat source, it will expand. Implosion of this expanded gas will utilize atmospheric pressure. Numerous pumping applications and the development of atmospheric implosion motors are the result. Implosion, as a single react ion, only occurs with this gas and is impossible with other known substances! When Brown's Gas burns, it turns into water. When it is produced from water using electrolysis, it expands 1,860 to 1. Implosion is achieved with a high frequency spark of 9,00 0 Volts or higher. When subjected to electric ignition. it uniquely implodes (patented in March, 1990 after 8 years process time) producing a near perfect vacuum. Upon implosion, vacuum is 1,859. The remaining "1" becomes once again a pure form of water. Only a low decible "ping" accompanies the implosion. The speed of detonation (or burn rate) is greater than 3,600 meters per second. There is no contraction - expansion effect when the gas is imploded only contraction. Little heat is lost to the equipment in an implosion cycle. The low cost of gas production than ensures an inexpensive method for production of ultra high vacuum.
so... stanley meyers injector which disassociates water and then uses electricity to ignite it.... hmmm
wow . I need to do this . This s going to need a new thread
"vacuum is 1,859. The remaining "1" becomes once again a pure form of water."
This type of and engine would need no exhaust just a water return and no intake just a HHO injection. And from what I am understanding no cooling as there is little heat transfer. Will start experiments based on implosion and use a pneumatic
cylinder for the engine simulation to start if I can maintain implosion.
Good cylinder for testing implosion effects.
according to that paragraph it may need to be heated first. its says it expands when exposed to heat.. then you can implode it. so when the torch burns it at around 300 degrees and you expose a voltage potential to it.. sounds alot like the center of a vortex diassociation of water.. high voltage.. heat from the friction of water spinning and imploding onto itself
Browns' gas (believed to be the element "Helionon" on Walter Russell's periodic table) has been reported to "transmute" other elements.
Ah, just build it!
HHO Implosion Engine new thread
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2616.new.html#new
Thanks for the vid Ironhead....Just finished analyzing it and your right that first pic was an IMPLOSION. Look at the bubbles on top of the water. That flame did not just stay on one side like the other, it went in and underneath the barrier to the other side.
I beleive the next pic was an explosion, look at the bubbles on the next slide they are pushed up against the side. You can see a clean path.
Here are some of the pics....
Quote from: IronHead on June 27, 2007, 01:57:38 PM
Ok guys take a look at this. The first ignition has been slowed way down as it last about 1/120th second or 25% of one frame . This was a unbearable loud Implosion . You will only see some flashes of blue light there is little orange fire . The next ignition is the normal explosion orange flame and the last is a slowed orange flame bang.
The question is, is this the outcome of 33.3 / 66.6 mix causing an implosion or is this something else.
Also in the first pic there is a sort of strange cloud formation or maybe just a flash of energy . What ever it is I have never seen it in any experiment I have done with HHO. That includes all implosion works with 33.3 /66.6
Here are the frames and the video is attached .
Good eye on the foam man. Thanks
Any idea what the blue stuff is electrons ,photons a cloud mix
OK here is a progress update on the new cell. Picture #5 is a view of the inner lid. This lid will have holes out the top but in between the cells. This will allow the hho and water to flow out of the cell for some relaxation time.
There will be another lid on top of this about 1" higher it will rest on top of the inner walls but inside the outer walls.
On the left side of picture #4 I will have the water injection into each individule cell. This cell will be double walled for strength and it will also help with the water injection.
going good just have ta keep on going.
That right there looks like a great build in progress and the outcome should be very nice . Keep up the good build hkyle.
sorry did some more looking and ya know what, I beleive those are photons....
Quote from: IronHead on June 27, 2007, 10:28:32 PM
Good eye on the foam man. Thanks
Any idea what the blue stuff is electrons ,photons a cloud mix
thanks....see what i mean about drilling holes in your plates.....
Quote from: IronHead on June 27, 2007, 10:49:55 PM
That right there looks like a great build in progress and the outcome should be very nice . Keep up the good build hkyle.
Um ok . I never drilled holes in plates and I did not say to . Oh wait this is your old cell from awhile back right. I remember now you talking about this yes.
Alittle welding does the trick eh . check for high magnetic attraction around the new welded area .Believe it not it will make a big difference in production . you can anneal the plate to get most of it out if need be.
Remember at startup to do the plate conditioning process to setup fields and do away with the chrome water in a hazmat fashion .
Yes this is from my old cell. GOOP does wonders, fixedem right up. lol....did you see my repost on your photon?
Yes I really think it is photon discharge as well after looking it over and over I will do more test tomorrow and try and mimic this implosion effect.
Everything is healing well so I can get back to my normal pace of construction and study or closer to...
HHO Implosion Engine ,new thread
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2616.new.html#new
1945 atomic tests had blue glow around the smoke - thought to be gamma rays or some result of radiation
rasberry glow at Chernobyl
hmm - same blue glow seen on top of Hindenburg before she blew
Walter Russell's predicted the element Luminon as one of the elements below hydrogen - it glows easily - and is two elements below Helionon (thought to be Brown's gas).
Your rate and/or method of splitting may result in other "elements".
Might try to catch it in a tube or see if it charges a metal plate.
Ok so I have to find the geiger counter as well ,thanks
capture the reaction .also see if it charges a plate will try that.
umm ya those photons can also carry electromagnetic radiation of all wavelengths...sooooo ya probably could or did see them...plus alittle microwaves...Is there a black and white picture of your bone structure on the wall behind you LOL...
Quote from: IronHead on June 28, 2007, 12:01:26 AM
Ok so I have to find the geiger counter as well ,thanks
capture the reaction .also see if it charges a plate will try that.
I cannot believe cutting these slots is becoming the death of me... I've machined emulsion tubes for my dual webbers on my VW, yet can't manage cuts in plastic..
I am kicking myself that I GAVE away my radial arm saw, yeah... GAVE... I didn't think it would see much use, now it would save my ass from going (one sandwich shy of a picnic).
I'm following, I'll catch up Teach...
Turtle.. I may end up taking you up on that offer several pages back, I haven't accepted defeat yet.
-the mental midget
miter box and hand saw ,15 bucks maybe. easy
There's a vacuum between my ears these days I swear... my back to basics thinking capabilities have been ziltch lately.
Mucho grassy ass Guru sir,
-rapttor
wait , did you just call me an ass guru . thats just so wrong
hahahaha
Hi all and IH Guru,
Got some (KOH) Potassium Hydroxide flakes. As you can see from the pic I have more than I need, so if any of you guys need some I can mail you a small container like the one next to the pail. This container can hold up to a 16 ounces of fluid, so I don't know what the weight of the KOH would be once full but it must be over a pond.
I am not offering this for free but for a small fee plus postage it could be yours.
I am located in Ontario, Canada
Luc
Rapttor, if you want polycarbonate plate, they're already cut. Tell me what size and grade stainless- yer chioces are: 26 ga 304 or 18 ga 316L
Lemme know
U-2 cell is glued up, ready to test. I'm getting used to using this windshield urethane, but I'm gonna bite the bill and make a few cells outa that structural epoxy with acrylic backing- man, that stuff's expensive, but pennies compared to what I already spent <groan> (Lean KOH in the tank fer that, IH)
BTW, jes picked up a 3.0 litre ford v-6 with a tranny, outa the car. Gonna be a screamer on H2 only. Need 25kW gen to load it. Can you say "12 brutes in parallel"?
Turtle
Polycarbonate is not chemically compatible with KOH. (funny that KOH is used to make it in the first place)
http://polycarbonate-tubes-rods.com/data%20sheets/polycarbonate_chemical_resistance.htm
Right, grumpy, but at what concentration? 0.01 N is enough to start the reaction in my brute, and 0.1 N really makes it scream. I use molarity cuz it's easier to quantify and track.
With 100% pure KOH, it takes 56.1 grams / litre for a molar (1 normal) solution, but concentrated KOH is 25% by weight, or 250 grams/litre. Yer chart sez conc. KOH. That's at least 20 times stronger that the mix I use. At my anemic strengths, I thought heat would be more an issue. I've got cells to test this all fer decomposition; just ain't had the time to shake it all out, yet. Gotta move it on up that cursed priority list, I reckon...
Turtle
Got a few questions about this. Holes ,picture below
In the news today.
One of the Cell videos on my YouTube is featured on what looks like a Japanese XXX site. AHAHAHAHA
Quote from: IronHead on June 28, 2007, 01:39:44 PM
wait , did you just call me an ass guru . thats just so wrong
hahahaha
What a $hitty job that is...On a side note, your recommendation of the mitre somehow knocked me out of my Funk I was in. I stopped yesterday to pickup a fresh bandsaw blade, last night I decided to check all the guide rollers, blade alignment & such, well, everything was waaay off, the table was off ... not true to the blade at all. Once I adjusted / reset everything the way it should be, I was able to cut my slots very easily... it's even easier with acrylic, peel the paper you can see right through it...
I'll finish it up tonight with some pics... So thanks again IronHead... unintentionally you helped me out big time.
-rapttor
Hey Ironhead,
Did you ever get that Pwm from Bill? Just wondering if you did and how it worked. Keep it up guys. Lookin great! Moab.
Keep building them! :)
I used Chapps PWM and it is good for low level experiments in the 12 and 24 volt low amp range. I am waiting for the next generation of high amp mutli outlet boards to test.
If you are using the Chapp board I suggest experiment on half of the cell with it.
The next board should work with up to 3 full cell modules.
When will the next larger capacity board be available?
Greetings,
I've read the thread from page 14, and am in the process of building a cell to catch up with the 'class'. Nice job with what you are doing here IronHead.
I have a question about the cell and frequency. In your Youtube video you are sweeping the frequency of the pulsing DC, and at points seeing more gas production from the cell. Just to be clear, these points of high output are resonant frequencies aren't they?
Reading through some of the stuff on Stan Meyer, he had a Voltage Intensifier Circuit that he repeatably said increased the voltage. My question is how does something that looks like a toroid transformer increase voltage on a DC circuit? Or am I just missing something? I don't really have much experience with electronics, so please be gentle.
Thanks
Welcome aboard, chuck252;
"Please be gentle..." That's asking alot right outa the chute, but we'll try <grin>
Pulse D C acts like A C, in that there is a rise from 0 volts, rapidly to peak, thence level fer a time, then a drop back to 0 volts. We use the blocking diode to prevent that square wave from going negative, which would play hell with yer decomposition process. Gotta keep the juice going in the same direction.
Anyhow, whenever y'all have a rise and fall in amplitude, jes shove it thru an inductor (differnt types yield differnt results) and ye can jack it up, down, sideways, wherever ya want.
Thats how DC gets transformered, in essence. There's more to it, but that's "turtle interpretation"
Keith
Just thought I'd post a quick update, I'm finishing up my cell rebuild #4, using 3/8 acrylic on the sides to be able to seal it up nicely. my first few tries at it I wasn't happy with the results, so this is the third try, which I think will come out good.
I was testing the signal generator last night trying to fire the transistors with a 24vdc X 4.5A power supply, but I couldn't get the transistors to trigger, only here and there would they start switching, then I found the reason... a dirty antenuation switch. She'll be cranking hopefully tonight.
It's been quiet, what did everyone blow stuff up or what?... lol, be safe.
-rptr
O2 sensor correction.
Controlling your O2 sensor, and have it give normal readings back to the computer will save you fuel while using HHO. If the O2 sensor is running to cold it will tell the computer to add more gasoline to your engine . HHO cools the cylinder burn creating lower temp exhaust gases.
This is how you correct the signal.
EFIE ( Electronic Fuel Injection Enhancer ) , Google it.
IronHead
I know of the EFIE, and know that it's in the pcm catagory (pre-control module). A board that takes the incoming signals... (ohm value changing) see's this and adjusts things like injector pulse width...etc.
Well, when I was trying to diagnose an issue I had on my 01' V6 Tundra, I learned a bunch of inside geek tricks. One of them envolved intercepting the Engine or Coolent temp sensor resistance changes in the wires running back to the ECM / ECU, putting a pot inline with it, and you could by keeping the engine thinking the engine is cold, it keeps the pulse width to the injectors on the "rich" setting. This was primarily for the guys running boost of some sorts. But you can also go a certain distance the other way, you can lean things out as well. To those who know this is referred to keeping the engine in "closed Loop" mode. You intercept any of the incoming signals you can change how your engine runs...
Sorry the Geek in me just made you all suffer through that blathering...
-rapttor
All's well on my side of the mountain, but lots of other things going on right now.
Just built the Elenco FG500K and will test soon.
Got a newer scope as well, now to figger out how to use it <grin>
Got a load of 1/2 and 1" polypropylene, as well as sheet PVC from the scrapyard... lots of stock to work with, no time to do it.
Turtle
[q]lots of stock to work with, no time to do it.
Turtle[/q]
yeah, those wives can get in the way huh...(i feel the pain)
Looking forward to your test results Keith,
Got my chokes made, all I need is to fix me frequency generator (need new transistor BUZ 350).
More to come, ill be giving some info back a the Water fuel cell Forum,
Keep me posted,
Pulsed,
Hi all and IH,
I did 2 tests on my cell, both at 12v only. However not much result. With the water level a 1/4" lower from the top of the plates (see first pic) I only get activity at the center negative plate and a very small amount at each positive plates, (which are gooped at the outside back) I get nothing in the neutral plates. Also it draws only half an amp with lots of KOH added. At first I used small amounts of KOH treating the same 4 liter distilled water jug and refilling the cell and test again but had no activity, so I started using a 16 fluid ounce container of KOH (one at a time) to the water jug and retest. I stopped adding KOH when I was up to 4 full 16 ounce containers of KOH but still not much activity and amps. So I decided to fill the test container to go above the plates. Now more activity and amps but again only the center - plate and a small amount at each + plates but no activity in the neutral plates. I don't understand what I'm doing different other than the bottom of my cell is sealed to keep from voltage leaks.
Any suggestions?
Add more voltage my friend....
ohh and keep the water level below the top of the cell. You have voltage leak at the top of the cell, the voltage is going above the plates thats why you have more activity on the center electrode. the voltage is not going through the N plates due to lack of voltage.....
Great build.
Also reduce the size of the container the cell is in and go to 24 volts and then 36 .
Try rain water or spring water . Distilled water is dead water.
Has anyone tried pumping ionized air into your cell. In my studies this increases gas output. IR lasers on the cell also increase production. Why does everyone use KOH for an electrolyte? I use citric acid instead It doesn't turn the water muddy. Instead it looks like flat Mt Dew and seems to work fine.
I have never tried citric acid . But I do use IR in one cell.
I encourage people that have replicated the cell with good outcome to experiment with there own Ideas at this point .
The replication is done now. Experiment , jump plats, try citric acid, pulse,ionizing chamber , IR , magnetic influence . Some of you have the correct build with free floating plates that will resonate nicely other do not. Continue now to build onto this Cell in you own way . This is the way it will become something of use . Share your ideas now that we have come this far.
I will continue to show more of the techniques I use in this type of Cell and what it has evolved to. You have a very flexible Cell if you built it according to the specs. This is the resign why I have been so hard on people that come in here trying to change things . This is a replication! Now it is a flexible low cost experimental Cell Stack .
Lets see what you guys that have done the replication can do now.
IronHead
Thanks for all your info, I'm going to try and round up the parts to get a cell going.
@IH
I just wanted to ask you if the sides of each plate need to be totally sealed?
If a small gap is OK, what is too wide?
Dan
the slotted fit should be tight if you can rattle the plate by hand its to lose if you can not pull it out it is to tight . Hows that for scientific :)
You sound like a guy that can really do a good replication here , because you asked the number one question that no one else has ever asked.
Good luck ask any and all questions as every detail matters. Its the little stuff that adds up to make a Cell work properly.
The resign I have not scripted out ever detail is because it is impossible to do .
When I build something I don't think, my brain is blank like many artist talk about.
It is after the thing is build I must understand the detail . When one asks the question it just then become aparant .
This is why it is so hard for me to explain myself.
Build it from the mind not the brain
IronHead
Quote from: IronHead on July 10, 2007, 09:05:03 PM
When I build something I don't think, my brain is blank like many artist talk about.
It is after the thing is build I must understand the detail . When one asks the question it just then become aparant .
Build it from the mind not the brain
IronHead
That's almost exactly the same way Jesse James, (west coast choppers) described how he goes about fabricating a bike from scratch... I find the same, if I run with an idea and don't let my brain get in the way... the outcome usually surpasses what my original goal was. Along the lines of the other saying " Don't think... Just do... "
Quote from: rapttor on July 11, 2007, 09:52:53 AM
Quote from: IronHead on July 10, 2007, 09:05:03 PM
When I build something I don't think, my brain is blank like many artist talk about.
It is after the thing is build I must understand the detail . When one asks the question it just then become aparant .
Build it from the mind not the brain
IronHead
That's almost exactly the same way Jesse James, (west coast choppers) described how he goes about fabricating a bike from scratch... I find the same, if I run with an idea and don't let my brain get in the way... the outcome usually surpasses what my original goal was. Along the lines of the other saying " Don't think... Just do... "
Oh how i love it when you guys talk this way.. Go get em boys. this is the OnlY way for true builders to think!! not so sure about Jesse James tho thats a different kind of building. For the most part he is building from a known templet.(It has a motor and 2 wheels , a gastank,, ect,ect) we are not. we go in to the relm of the new and totally different. Moab. Just do it. you can study it later.
Just want to make sure I'm doing this right so that when I report a measurement, it will be able to stand scrutiny.
Gallon jug with 1 liter air space, let engine run to force out 1 liter water, then time the next liter that is forced out. So that three liters H produced, and I can time the third liter. Does that make sense?
Do you know a way to apply a vacuum while taking a test? I have to take off the connection to the throttle body.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi180.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx171%2Fmryikes%2F2007_0711litertest0005.jpg&hash=01e6f7ba6e21806f6a948375122669c80f7ab297)
Well what I do is go down and find a 1L bottle of pop. Fill that bottle with 1L of water and turn upside down in a bigger pail of water. Put the HHO output hose into the neck of the bottle while the electrolyzer is turned on and warmed up. Time how long it takes to push out that 1L of water. That is a rough guess on the Liters / Min your cell puts out. Not exact but will do. unless you have a flow meter ;)
One of the problems I find with this type of test on these Cells , is pressure.
Even the smallest amount of pressure greatly reduces the output of the Cell.
Those small plastic float type flow meters work well.
Wanna see a good looking spark plug? In use for over a year in a daily driver, run on Hydro boost for over a month http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x171/mryikes/2007_0715sparkplug0001.jpg
I changed to a 1" tube (3/4" angles). I get water drops inside the tube at idle. At 2k rpm I can watch the vapor being sucked in.
BTW, the 3m window weld stuff works well. Seals the cells, turns to a hard rubber, holds up to heat, doesn't flake off or cause scum in the solution. Doesn't seem to be affected by naoh. Comes out of the tube thick, like caulking. Kinda messy though. Since it's black when you get it on your hands and rub your hair, it gets rid of the grey.
Good pic , HHO does keep her clean along with steaming the inside of the engine.
Thanks yikes
Yikes... is that an MR2 or Fiero?
That is by far one of the cleanest plugs I have ever seen that has done a year's time in a D.D.
Nice work.
-rapttor
Some footage of Stan Meyer's first HHO dune buggy. Just thought I put out there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8F44mrrlbA
This a led in
gearing up to show some new videos never before seen. Will HHO run a car 100%?
IronHead
Thanks fer posting that, IronHead; it's interesting to note the power Stan said it was drawing- 5 volts, 2 amps fer 10 watts. Guess the VIC was working overtime, getting the RLC voltage way up where it needed to be?
"Running on natural water"... that's what turtles love best!
Keith
Quote from: IronHead on July 16, 2007, 08:20:21 PM
Some footage of Stan Meyer's first HHO dune buggy. Just thought I put out there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8F44mrrlbA
If you pay real close attention to the dialog & video you can see how he's doing this, and it's just how Dave Lawton did it as well. I've got myself an alternator, I've just been procrastinating on machining out a shaft coupling...
(
It's using 5 volts at 2 amps... That's the dead give away.
I.H. I'm not even going to ask where this video came from...
You juz full of Sue-prizes.
-rapttor
You are the master of cliffhangers. Or... Iron-hangers, as the case may be. :P
Thanks, Ironhead. This is the stuff motivation is made of!
--Mark.
What would be his 5volt supply? It may have been 5v and 2 amps to the field windings of his alternator, which would crank out much more than that. I wish we had some close up walk around on the system.
NICE :) :)
Thanks for the Vid Ironhead. Did you guys note the bubble sizes....You would think that for the amount of HHO he needed to run that dune buggy the water should have looked like it was boiling....but no...Hmmmmm looks familiar.....
Plus there was no vast array of plates, just two ss pipes. Looks to be around 6inch round by 18inch tall.
Quote from: IronHead on July 16, 2007, 08:20:21 PM
Some footage of Stan Meyer's first HHO dune buggy. Just thought I put out there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8F44mrrlbA
This a led in
gearing up to show some new videos never before seen. Will HHO run a car 100%?
IronHead
Quote from: d3adp00l on July 17, 2007, 12:32:03 PM
What would be his 5volt supply? It may have been 5v and 2 amps to the field windings of his alternator, which would crank out much more than that. I wish we had some close up walk around on the system.
You realize it sounds like you're answering a question on Jeopardy?...LOL (yeah I have issues)
Yes sir, pulse the field windings on / off.... that was my thinking...
What was that big chunk of equipment sitting right next to the cell?
Thanks for the vid IronHead.
Quote from: rapttor on July 17, 2007, 02:45:04 PM
Quote from: d3adp00l on July 17, 2007, 12:32:03 PM
What would be his 5volt supply? It may have been 5v and 2 amps to the field windings of his alternator, which would crank out much more than that. I wish we had some close up walk around on the system.
You realize it sounds like you're answering a question on Jeopardy?...LOL (yeah I have issues)
Yes sir, pulse the field windings on / off.... that was my thinking...
My thoughts exactly!
Quote from: Chuck252 on July 17, 2007, 02:54:25 PM
What was that big chunk of equipment sitting right next to the cell?
The alternator that was on his bench in the other video....
That is correct . The buggy still has the original VW generator/starter on the engine. Bone Stock 1600 VW other the the ignition and exhaust.
Thanks guys. That is one big alternator. :o
I've been trying to understand some of the electronics involved in this, and I hear Stan talking about an amp consuming device. How do you restrict amps in a circuit?
This video makes good inspiration.
Looking forward to your videos IornHead.
Driven by an AC motor so size is mostly the big AC motor driver.
If i heard it correctly he said ;
"applying 5volts and 2amps to the field of the alternator"
and
"we use the alternator as a amp restrictor and alow the voltage to take over"
WOW
Popeye, that's what a resonant RLC [resistance, inductance, capacitance] circuit will do for ya, get the voltage high and keep the amps low. But I ain't done it yet, on any scale.
(edit: not resistance, but "resonant")
Y'all might have seen these
http://www.ngsir.netfirms.com/englishhtm/RLC.htm
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8101761120710333337&q=resonance+MIT&total=44&start=0&num=10&so=1&type=search&plindex=1
That MIT class is long, but I found it worth it,
and both give a good understanding of the tank circuit principle.
Turtle
Hi Guys and IH,
did some more tests at 24v, 36v and 110v, in a smaller container ;). This cell design work best at high voltage but heat happens fast as it goes up. Also less and less of KOH is needed as voltage goes up, a minute amount was needed at 110v.
I wrote the voltage of each pic below and the video is at 110 volts and with next to nothing of KOH, I drop it till I could run the cell for about 3 min. without overheating.
Luc
BINGO! Increase voltage higher
Forget the heat for now .
Powerful HHO is it not?
Keep in your mind how tiny this Cell Module is gentlemen.
These effects will teach you ,Evolution of the experiment individually understanding each part to the fullest . Voltage , Amperage,Magnetics ,Vibration ,Resonance ,Loss ...
IronHead
very nice cell build.
Nice listening skills, on the video.
And are we really playing jeopardy we have the answer, we need to understand the questions for the answer to have any real meaning, isn't that about right IH
My urethane sided cell seems to be holding up rather well, and no nasty floaters (like with silicone) in the electrolyte. Onlyest problem is it ain't very willing to give up a plate here or there, not very versatile (flexible is the wrong word). Hope to post some performance numbers soon.
Turtle
You must have the understanding to find the question.The answers come from the evolution of the understanding.
I can give you all you need to make HHO and not teach you to learn from it , but then nothing new will come. This is a learning Cell Module . From this will come much new ideas ,ways of doing the new. The versatility of this will show you many things to understand and answer the questions
While the rest of the world is fumbling around in there lazy chair trying to decipher Meyer and so and so . The builders here are learning it , doing it, using it...
Built It, it has many questions for you
Built It, it has many answers to share
IronHead
Gotoluc, nice work sir & thanks for sharing your results so far.
I'm curious, the base water before electrolyte... did you start with spring, tap or distilled H2o.
That's it... I need to get mine together... I want to have big bada booms too...
I haven't failed... I have found a way that doesn't work.-edison
Hi everyone. This is my first post to OU.com. My own attempts at PMM energy not withstanding, I am fascinated by the HHO topics being discussed here. However, I was up until 2AM (having to rise at 5am) this morning reading through this thread and I only got to page 20! I know Ironhead likes to teach by leading down the primrose path and will not like this question but has anyone distilled these threads into various How-To tutorials? IronHead, have you written a book on this topic yet? If not, you should! I want to get down to it right away.
How much gass production efficiency is really gained by isolating each cell in a series plate electrolizer over just dunking the open plate design in the same electrolyte?
Likewise with Linnard's device. Has anyone succeeded at making one as efficient as the one we see on his windowsill?
Please keep uo the excellent work.
ZFF
I think it is a very good question. I might seem alittle hard on people about all of this . This is because this is a replication of a cheap economical test Cell . Once complete ,do as thy will is what I am trying to teach here. To have something to learn from.
The Cells that I actually use are of many configurations Series, Parallel, Double Helix, Capacitive, Rod & Coil, Spherical and RF . They all came from what I learned using this small test Cell
I have not written any books or guides. This all started because a few people here and on YouTube asked me how they would go about replicating my test Cell . The Cell I use to try different configurations .
Encasing a Cell can yield up to 2 times gas output and in one case closer to 3 times. That would be in a full encasement situation.
Thanks ZeroFossilFuel and welcome to the Forums
IronHead
If you would like to bring the Cell up to a voltage of 220 to study the effects and do not have a 220 feed that is accessible . A simple cheap premade step up transformer like this will do the trick with a bridge rectifier . Also there are many step up transformers on ebay of various voltages.
http://www.amazon.com/Seven-Star-Step-Transformer-TC500/dp/B000AY72DO
And for big amps at 220
http://www.amazon.com/Simran-AR-3000-Regulator-Converter-Transformer/dp/B000E636BU/ref=pd_sim_e_3/002-0043924-4923260
The Highest voltage I have studied was 40,000
Keep it simple
IronHead
@ZeroFossilFuel: I think it's a great idea. [breathe in] And I suspect, once we've ironed-out a simple, reliable, easily replicated, and cost-effective method of producing these or other units, you, me, and others will be dragging guys like Ironhead and Turtle and Dingus and Hartiberlin, et al, to the table in hopes of mapping everything out in concise terms and compiling something in opensource and in 150 different languages to make sure it's accessible to those who wish to free themselves from the shackles of the energry corps. [breathe out]
@Ironhead: 40,000 volts! hehe. Do you have a sense of a general voltage range that's ideal? I'm thinking of trying to pulse the 12v supply to an off-the-shelf 110v inverter; will this work? Are you still glowing? lol.
--Mark
Volts and amps are a trade off . It all works
12 volts with high amps is good as the automobile
already supples it . I see these guys running around with 5000+ watt
sound systems in there cars and the car handles it with no problem
with a few mods. Learn from those guys they know how to make the power
to feed such a system . Use the knowledge to power your Cell .
The cooling part is easy your car already has a cooling system or 2 or 3.
Every one wants answers from the Cell . I want answers from the car too ,can you support my Cell ? How?
But I am not making enough HHO, some say . How do you know, put it in the car and find out . you have know idea what you have under vacuum yet. How do you know the effect even a small amount of HHO has the the gasoline burn . The math guys going to tell you all this. No , put it in the car and run it . then put 2 together 3,4,5 paralleled
Just do it , it will teach you. You dont know how to hook it up ,come in here and ask me while you got your hands on it.
IronHead
This little Cell we have here is producing more HHO than the two big Cells this guy has in his car based on the "aaron" Cell and he is getting 48 mpg . He does not even have it hooked up right . What is stopping everyone from installing what has been built into there cars to further experiment .Built some boxes and put the thing in a car, truck , generator, lawn tractor .Lets get some real world study and application going.
Also make it so it is easily removed and fully accessible .
http://www.youtube.com/user/sm0ky40
Well I did the tests at 210v. Video 1 has an extremly small amount of KOH. Video 2 is a bit more KOH and Video 3 is again more but out of control very quick.
When I built my cell I doubled the slots for the plates, that is, I made the slots at every 1/8". So far all the tests I did are with the the plates at 1/4" spacing. So tonight I tried the plates at 1/8" spacing. Video 4 is the results of that at 210v but with no KOH!, just strait tap water.
The water I used in my tests is just tap water, but the city takes it from a clean river in Ottawa, Canada. However when I first energized the cell I followed Guru IH steps and also used natural spring water.
Luc
Hmmm. I just smoked my 110v inverter. Too much electrolyte, I guess.
Want to make a trade? Cities, I mean... I miss Ottawa! lol.
Well, Aphasiac, if y'all were tryin' to power that thar 8 plate 10x3 monster, then it don't surprise me none. I mean this in all kindness, but "get used to it".
I trash stuff all the time, but I can usually fix it, or salvage something.
A rule of thumb I've been following lately is "never load anything intentionally beyond half its rated capacity".
That way, if y'all mis-ciphered out yer concentrations, yer time frame to pull the plug is wider.
Spade tipe fuses are cheap as well... go to a junkyard and yank a few handfuls for a couple bucks.
I found this little jewel at the chinese tool store.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93519
Y'all can get real-time amp readings whilst adding the hot stuff... COOL, and darn cheap insurance fer $30 USD.
"Burn 'em up an' git over it".
You'll learn. And the cost of toasted equipment is included in the lab fee we're paying. Keep the end in sight. Right, IronHead?
Kind regards,
Turtle
@IH
Hope to have SS316L plates this weekend. I can't wait to get going on this. I drive almost 120 miles per day to work and back. With gas at $3.29 a gallon. Geeez.... At least I get about 32mpg. Hoping this will help. Shouldn't take too long to pay for itself. (Multi-cells, etc...)
Here's a source for upgrading your alternators. I went from a 105A to the 140A version a while back. Glad I did, I'd sure hate to give up the "good tunes" on the ride home just to get better gas mileage.
http://www.alternatorparts.com/ (http://www.alternatorparts.com/)
Dan
I.H. Re: 220, could a simple diode/capacitor voltage doubler work fed by 110? Output would be half wave rectified.
Try it . Post it
Quote from: keithturtle on July 18, 2007, 11:23:44 PM
Well, Aphasiac . . . I mean this in all kindness, but "get used to it".
Turtle
Hehe. Thanks, Turtle. I've got a tough outer shell too; I'll suck it up and stay the course. Afterall, most of the things I've learned, I learned by mistake. And see... breaking things is the best excuse I know for buying bigger and better replacements.
... off to the hardware store I go!
--Mark
Quote from: IronHead on July 19, 2007, 08:22:47 AM
Try it . Post it
Okay, I'm in. Got a guy who owns a shop that produces outdoor vending carts (ie hotdog carts). He's hooking me up with a few square feet of 304 stainless they regularly have for scrap. I'm stopping there tomorrow. I will also have him stamp them into precise 2"x2" and 2"x3" for the control device. I like gotoluc's idea to create multiple plate spacings for future experimentation. You did say fully isolated cells can produce up to 3x the gas. I found a pdf somewhere here that shows very detailed construction plans for a sealed series cell. I think it's very elegant. The unit I eventually test in my car will probably be based on this concept. I get that each system will need fine tuning. What intrigues me is finding the sweet spot for most efficient gas production.
I'm trying to catch up with the posts as fast as I can but to get up to speed I have a few questions. If it's already been covered, just point me to the pages rather than rehashing it here.
1) What pages cover details of the clear housing construction?
2) Is there any need to seal the edges of the plates in the grooves of the prototype ass'y? or can they just rest there?
3) I think my guy also uses SS409. If I'm right, anything 4xx does not contain Ni making it magnetic and that's bad for these experiments. Right?
4) Have you begun covering use of the PWM yet and it's effect on the type of Hydrogen it produces (Ortho vs Para)?
5) I collect water condensate from the air conditioning units in my home. Will this be suitable for these experiments?
6) My tap water is from a 250' deep artisan well. When we bought the house and had the water tested the tester we hired said we should bottle it and sell it. A cheap digital water tester shows 13 PPM total dissolved solids. I know most of it is copper. How well suited is this for the tap water experiments?
7) Magdrive uses 1 tsp/gal Baking Soda for electrolyte. You seem to prefer KOH. What are the benefits and drawbacks of each?
Sorry for all the questions.
ZFF
Replication of the Hydrogen Oxygen extraction S-Cell
1: reposted 3d layout below . When using the glue "GOOP let dry for a few days.
The Cell is designed so the plates can be removed .The two outside surfaces of the positive plates facing away from the Cell need to be sealed with a layer of GOOP
this is not shown in the drawings . This is done to seal voltage leaks .
2: The slotted fit should be tight if you can rattle the plate by hand its to lose if you
can not pull it out it is to tight.
3: Stainless types listed from good to best 304 < 316 < 316L < and Nitronic 50
4: Some people are using PWM some are not , this area is more of a preference.
5: Distilled < Tap water < Spring Water < Rainwater Seems to be the order from good to best for extraction of HHO.
6: Tap water you be the judge , all you can do is try it.
7: Baking soda gases into Carbon dioxide and Carbon Monoxide . If you use it in your
car you put out more Co Co2.
KOH does vaporize but does not gas and can be re-condensed back to KOH
KOH is caustic and needs to be in a closed loop system for cooled condensing.
KOH must be blocked from entering your engine .
A flush cooled stainless steel wool filled bubbler is the way to go for this system and will be covered when someone asks how to build it.
James is doing some nice high voltage study based on this S-Cell type.
252LPH so far in a fairly small area.
Check out his work and leave some feedback and ratings
Very well done Jameshotguy77 aka Hot Hydro Dady
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxJ-Wrdd-t4
Thanks IH
I could not have done it with out all of you on here. :)
Thanks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxJ-Wrdd-t4
@IronHead
I've been out of this thread since a little while working on some other stuff. My brother sent me the following video and I don't know if you have seen this yet but thought this may be of great interest. In case.
I'll have to go back about three weeks on this thread and catch up.
Hope this is OK to post here.
I sure hope that room is well ventilated!
Here is a guy on youtube who tested interesting cell configurations
and compared the output.
Very interesting !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp1SdXIK8co
and here are his other videos:
http://www.youtube.com/user/markj30
Thank you for the video post hartiberlin
In the second video he talks about "the plate configuration is more important then the power put to the plates"
This statement is correct ,but it is not just the plates that are so important . It is the entire Cell stack design and build . As you have all seen here there is much more to this then just plate configuration. All the little details about voltage leak,
plate dimensions, plate condition, water levels, water type ...
This all adds up to a good performing Cell .
Please experiment with these things and find out .
Thank you
IronHead
Well, construction of my cell is well underway. I was able to get a fairly large amount of SS304 free of charge from a friend at a company that makes outdoor food vending carts. They generate lots of scrap. He was even nice enough to stamp out all of my pieces on a press. I know 316 and 316L might be slightly better but beggars can't be choosers.
Picked up some 1/4" x 18" x 36" acrylic at Home Depot. I was pleasantly surprised at how smoothly it cut with my jigsaw. Unlike Plexiglas that melts and binds up the blade, this cut like butter, no chips, no melting. Very nice. Cut a 2" wide x 18" strip then two 5" lengths from that. With masking tape I joined the two pieces on their edges lengthwise, flipped it tape side down and marked where my groves will go with a fine Sharpie. Using a carpenter's square to make the first score marks I'm half way through scoring the grooves out. I'm actually using a piece of the same SS sheet as a tool to create the grooves so that they will be precisely the same width as the sheet or just ever so slightly larger. Having the pieces taped together like this I will get perfect alignment on the two sides. If I had to do it again (and I probably will at some point) I will cut it a bit larger than 4" x 5", make the grooves first, then make the final cut lengthwise down the middle. It's a slow way to go but the results should be spectacular.
HD didn't have the Marine variety of Goop so I grabbed some 3M 24 hour cure marine adhesive. It's polyurethane base. I saw a few comments that it had not been tried but some were curious. Has anyone tried it yet? If so please tell me how it held up. If not, I will sail these uncharted waters and report my findings.
Cheers!
ZFF
Add a frame piece to the bottom of the Cell to help the Cell from collapsing .
Glue it in all the way around . 1/2" frame edge will do fine.
There have been a few reports of Cells collapsing with out a frame like four corner support.
Way ahead of you. I was actually planning on creating a bottom plate with, oh I don't know, 1/16" holes between the plates? Just enough to allow some fluid exchange and still lower the leakage current around the plates. Damn! That reminds me! I should be putting groves in that right now. Thanks I.H.!
If you put small holes you will need to pump water through it which I am doing in the Car Cell. Needs to be as free flowing as possible for the bench top version here. So big holes or cut it out all together
If you can set up a pumping system go for it . There are some designs a few pages back or so if you need some ideas... Page 85
Hmmm. Need to think about that. I was going to get a general purpose windshield washer pump and resevoir (ah-la Magdrive) at a later date when I put together a full closed loop system with wool stuffed bubbler, some sort of heat exchanger, thermostatically controlled fan and solenoid valves to divert electrolyte into and around the heat exchanger, etc etc. I think for now I will still make the base cover but drill a few 1/8" holes in rows at the bottom between the plates. That way I can cap it later if I want to with a flat piece and the cells will then be more isolated.
Re: "free flowing", It occurs to me that I didn't see anyone posting previously mention anything about raising up their electrolyzers off the floor of the vessels in which they were submerged. If the bottoms are flat, how free flowing can that be? What say the rest of you? Did you raise them up or leave them flat on the bottom?
First part of my how-to series on the electrolyzer construction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpQj8h0KnJI
ZFF
When it comes to circulating water / electrolyte thru the cell, I have a rather unique air-lif pump design I stumbled across a while back. Only problem is it only works in open air conditions- I doubt it could work in the closed loop of a cell / isolation chamber loop.
Its configuration is a simple vertical tube in water, deep enough for the pressure at the bottom to do work, at least 2' of head.
There's a 2-stage concentric chamber that slowly fills with compressed air. When the air (creeping downward) reaches a port in the central pipe, the air rushes into the pipe, with all the water down at that level cramming the air outa the chamber. The result is a serious slug of air, and whatever water was in the pipe above the chambers, getting blasted out the top, thenceforth to wherever. At least 2" lift can be realized.
Here's a link to the guy that patented it, and he won't show the details I jes described
http://www.geyserpump.com/principle.htm
I jes built one that moves 20 gal/hr to solve a problem at the plant. Works famously, and NO MOVING PARTS!
I'll post a pic and breakdown later
Turtle
Quote from: ZeroFossilFuel on July 20, 2007, 10:31:24 PM
Re: "free flowing", It occurs to me that I didn't see anyone posting previously mention anything about raising up their electrolyzers off the floor of the vessels in which they were submerged. If the bottoms are flat, how free flowing can that be? What say the rest of you? Did you raise them up or leave them flat on the bottom?
I'm just telling you that you should have the thing flow as well as possible .
There is a small amount of common sense involved with this as well.
At this point how ever you do this is up to you .
Hi everyone! I have spent numerous hours reading over information on the internet on electrolysis and even made the circuit with the plates from the D16.pdf version with the plate configuration. Made up about 90 4x6 inch plates for this cell. Tried numerous ways to get it to work like it was suppose to. I recently looked at Ironhead?s post on the cell with the neutral plate design and hooked the plates with ? in spacing to 120V AC rectified and to my amazement with less than 5 Amps I was getting more gas output than any other way I have tried. I am in the process of machining slots to build something like on page 85 and enclose the cell. My question is. What is the maximum distance I can have the neutral plate to the positive plates, I was going to make it approximately 12 inches long to start out with and cut my 1/16 grooves on 3/16 centerline. This would give me a spacing of 1/8 inch. I can move the plates out to ? inch apart if the 1/8 inch drew to many amps. Has anyone built a larger cell this long? I?ll enclose a picture of the plate support spacing. The material I am using is UHMW Polyethylene. Also found a NTE5342 Bridge Rectifier that will support a average forward current of 40 Amps at 600 Volts I am using. Great work everyone!
Quote from: IronHead on July 21, 2007, 07:52:06 AM
I'm just telling you that you should have the thing flow as well as possible .
There is a small amount of common sense involved with this as well.
At this point how ever you do this is up to you .
Fair enough. I think with rows of six to eight 1/8" holes between the plates at the bottom, once gas production begins convection created by the rising bubbles should draw more than enough fluid through. This can become another variable to experiment with by blocking some or all of the holes. How much is enough? Will reducing the number of holes and decreasing the leakage current around the bottom of the plates outweigh the flow restriction? Etc.
ZFF
@ reddb49
The Cell you are designing should work fine.
There is one thing you want to watch out for at 1/8" spacing with this kind of voltage.
That is out of field voltage arcs . Like this
This is normal electric to plate travel.
|--->|
|--->|
|--->|
If the voltage is to high for the distance you might get this. 1/8" is a little close I think
| |
|--->|
| |
IronHead
@ZeroFossilFuel
I think that "six to eight 1/8" holes between the plates at the bottom"
Is going to work very well for you, it has for me in other Cell at least till you pump it.
It is always a trade off when doing a stand alone Cell like this . Better flow does out weigh voltage leaks in all case I have seen. So being a test Cell I think what you are doing here is going to be fine.
Hi everyone.
I am working on a electolizer and have some questions from your experiance i think you can help.
I am currently using 3 SS 316 pipes 1" 2" 3" I used to have them equally spaced out and using KOH 2 % and RO water. I got good out put I thought (nothing like your high voltage system) using 12 volts straight amps were anywhere from 7 to 15 when she got warmed up. I then starting learning more about the current. The distance of the plates vs the solution both increasing current. So I took the cell appart and spaced the tubes by puting a little piece of zip tie between the cylinders so that one side is very close to the outer tube and the other is about 3/4 of a inch away. To simplify if you put the 1 inch in the two and the two in the three and laid it on its side and then spaced the touching tubes with some zip tie material. I noticed that I got more gas production and that it was a high concentration where the gap was very tight and then it would move the water and gas in a have moon pattern on each side. For some reason I got more production this way. ANyway I have read about your ideas on polarity and wonder why when i have a - 1 inch tube + 2 inch tube and a -3 inch tube I produce more gas vs the + -+ configuration that you recomend? I get higher amps with +-+ but less gas.
What are you using for electrolite? Is it just Lye or a combo of Silver , Mag, and Lye?
Here is a pic of the higher gas production setup of my cell. ( I don't know if it is higher oxy or Hydro?)
By the way I like your post about doing the experiments vs watching. I am a go to guy and very excited about this technology. I have put this setup on my Little car (classic Mini cooper) 1000 cc engine and noticed some gains in the Hp didn't check the milage because i am trying to perfect the mixture in the carb of gas vs HHo and Air from the filter. I notice that I get some vacume problems at the bubbler. When i hit the throttle the bubbler stops. Still looking for a solution on that one. Right now I have the cell out in my shop for testing. In my auto system I have tapped off the exhauset with a small coper hose and ran it to the bottom of my cell with a inline valve to adjust the exhaust intake of the cell. My check valve is a heavy brass swing valve and it is not working properly I am in the process of finding a adjustable valve so I can run it with the min pressure so i can get a better idea of tunning it. The reason for this exhaust hose is to help the bubbles that from on the pipes rise off. I assume this will have a effect on the vaccum but I don't know anything about vaccum just yet. Probably why i have a problem with my bubbler at this time. Anyway I am thinking about buying a 1.5 and 2.5 and puting them in so I can equally space my cell but I need to know about the polarity of the tubes and how they effect. Any help or suggestions from anyone are greatly appreciated. here is a great masterpiece from Ms Paint of my cell. the tubes are 5 inch tall and are vertical in a 4 inch inside dia acrylic tube. with rubber caps on each end.
Yiasas
Ok I tried to read all you said here but please next time break the paragraphs up into smaller ones, it just makes it easier on the eyes for us old guys :)
Lets look at the vacuum problem . If you have the line going into the manifold ie Plenum .
Then when you accelerate the vacuum in the manifold goes way down ,this is normal.
So what you need are two lines and two check valves and run it like this.
Picture below
When the manifold vacuum goes down the intake at throttle body goes up .
This is under acceleration . At ital you manifold has the higher vacuum. Hope this helps a little.
The tube type HHO system is much much different then we work with here and its electric field is not the same .So + - + does not work in this case . I have found the same outcome using a tube system as well. As far as the tube type system I dont use it any more so I cant be much help there, sorry.
Also use Hydrogen safe check valves . I found these to be the best type.
And change out the check valve on your break booster as Hydrogen can migrate to the booster and fail the break system . This is tested true.
http://cgi.ebay.com/CHECK-VALVE-GAS-LIQUID-HYDROGEN-1-4-OR-3-8-PLASTIC_W0QQitemZ120144250973QQihZ002QQcategoryZ87087QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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Yes you should use a Stainless Brillo bubbler and the bubbler should be cooled with a small cooling system like you can find at the auto store for transmission cooling core . Try to find brass or plastic type . If you cool the KOH it will condense back to KOH then just feed it back to your water holding tank. Also I found that a lot of small hoes is much better than one big hole for conducing the KOH back down .
With my bubbler I have also added a flushing system to clean the Brillo . It flushes the bubbler from the top down . Not automatic yet but It works well.
Not sure you are on your own, there are many others here that have worked with concentric tube type systems.
.
I use KOH
Tell you what I will put a full operating 3d drawing together for you all labeled and such and you can take what you might need from it to add to your system .PM me your email
There are two different water circuits in my system . One loop from holding tank to bubbler to bubbler radiator core back to holding tank. The pump for this is between bubbler and its
radiator pull water through the bubbler . This is so the water level in the bubble stay just right all the time about 1/3 full. This system carries KOH from the bubbler back to the holding tank.
The second is from holding tank to cell to cell radiator and back to tank. Looped
You really have to think about this when you build it as all of this is under vacuum.
In th picture for vacuum hook up just replace the cell with the bubbler .
One line from the bubbler
split to two line with check vales on both lines . One line installed between the carb and air cleaner and one line directly into the manifold .
.
On my browser it is a clock on the upper right hand corner of the page . Above it is a menu bar that says Time to the right of that is a - button , click it.
FireFox browser with adblock plug in is the best way to deal with these types of things .
.
.
V= volts and I=currect are in need of balance according to Cell design , if V = 12 and I = 30 the output is not the same as V36 / I10 . This comes down to Cell design and how the E=electric field flows though the medium.
We have to look at things like V over D=Distance how far can DCV120 carry as apposed to DCV12 through a medium. So now we have to ask what is the medium and what are its properties.
The medium here does not matter in the calculation the only thing that does is R= resistance (OHMS) we find the R value by checking with our OHMS meter . Ok so when check the electrolyte you need a D frame of reference which is the D between the plates to start with. I like to take the measurements at full cell length , half cell and between one plate to another. With these I setup points of location.Now we have to look at the plates them selfs and take your OHMS reading on each side of the plate .
Connecting probe 1 to plate side A and Probe 2 to plate side B. You now have the R factor of one plate. This is how people came up with the V2.0 per plate factor and anything else burning off as heat,this is true , but there is much much more to this .
We have to understand this is an electromagnetic device with a magnetic field.
So with this established magnetic field we are trying to pull positive and negative
chargers apart and what do we need to make a big stronge magnetic field. We need amps.
...................................................................................................
You dont have to do all of this . you can just use a process of elimination
putting all kinds of V/I settings to the Cell and calculate the output . But this will help you to understand what is going on at the electromagnetic level of your cell.
There is one thing process of elimination will not show you or you will not see with the eye and that is Cell Plate Electric Shorting. This is when the E is to high for the D/R
you get a tiny focused area of E flow passing from plate to plate using just a pinhead of its surface area.
SORRY I AM TALKING TO LIKE 5 PEOPLE AT THE SAME TIME , BB SOON
Check back
.
Howdy Bouzouki;
Glad to have y'all aboard, and it's good to see yer serious about getting this working.
About VA vs watts, VA is another way of saying Volts amps reactance, or VARs on yer wattmeter. It's different from resistive load, which is watts. VAR generally refers to a motor or other load which creates a magnetic field, and that field gets manipulated by rotational or moving components within the load.
Watts is resistive, whether thru impedance or pure resistance. The watt load follows the phase of the voltage, whilst the reactive VAR load is several degrees out of phase
with the voltage, depending on single, three-phase or otherwise.
That's why amp readings may be deceptive, depending on the measurement y'all use.
My physics prof suggested that on some of these "overunity" devices, the actual draw is not recorded reliably as a result of the way the ammeter functions; henceforth, an amp meter reading 2 amps may indeed be letting a higher current flow past.
There's a lot of calculus involved in getting the true value, but I got an easier way... it's a rather involved explanation, but involves drawing yer load outa a battery of known capacity til it's a min voltage, the recharge it and measure the amps going back in in mAh. I had chargers that do this.
That way y'all will know how much power in kWh actually went into yer process over a determined period of time.
And I don't think y'all need that silver and magnesium in an electrolyser- that's pretty much Resin's non-powered unit's pervue.
Turtle
Do go into it in depth Turtle .
<ZFF raises hand for teacher> Please see my progress this evening. Thanks. ZFF
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2PltvTUDgg4
This is fantastic!
A lot of people are getting onboard with the study of HHO.
This video is really going to increase this population many times I believe.
I thank you for helping out on getting this into a much higher level media format
that people can see how to build a nice little test Cell to work with .
And the mention of safety was a nice touch .
We are really starting to get this thing out there in a purely open source way .
I feel very good about this , thank you to everyone .
IronHead
@ZFF;
Outstanding work on the cell. Keep it up. One suggestion- build a containment vessel that will allow y'all to capture gas (and subsequently measure its volume).
I think we all might had oughta run each of our cells with this equasion in mind:
Gas volume produced for kWh applied.
That wat we can determine which methods/setups give us the most bang for the buck (buck being equated with watts applied, cuz watts = $$$ in most economies).
@IronHead;
The idea of accurately measuring amps applied is one that must be addressed to answer the "overunity" question. To quantify amps by multiplying yer ammeter reading by time is acceptable, as long as the ammeter accurately reflects power being drawn. I parrot what was told me by one wiser than me, and am unable to adequately explain the dynamics... it has to do with the current and the actual sine wave. More research and interpretaion needed there. (A later project)
I can develop the "battery drawdown concept" here. A little background is in order, first.
Electric powered model airplanes require copius amounts of onboard stored electricity, usually in the form of NiCD, NiMH or LiPoly batteries.
All these here packs have a mAh (milliamphour) rating that is based on a charge termial and drain depletion voltage. Between them two voltages, that pack will deliver X amount of millamps at certain discharge rate. When it hits the minimum, the onboard circuitry cuts motor power and y'all can land yer airship with control power remaining.
Now, back at the hanger, y'all hook up yer computerized charger to the battery, after it cools, and let it charge back up to Charge terminal voltage, at which point the charge terminates (DUH!)
Now then,yer charger tells y'all how many milliamps were applied to the pack to reach full charge.
This allows y'all to apply this cell to an electrolytic process for a period of time, terminate that process at depletion voltage, and recharge, knowing exactly how many danged little electrons went to work making HHO.
(Let's not talk about cell charge efficiency, cuz a full charge is a full charge)
Anyhow, I think it meet (OE term) to address these matters of QUANTIFYING the power applied to our processes, to see where our efficiencies stack up to Mr Faraday and his rules.
Back to absorbing copious photon energy (basking lamp)
Turtle
Promises, promises;
I'm putting together a "sandwich chamber" to accommodate the brute, a circulation sub-chamber and contacts, simple enough fer anyone with a saw and drill to assemble. Granted, I used a joiner to perfect the edges, but I wanna get this thang posted.
If I'm gonna rant about Quantifying OUR GAS OUTPUT, i WANNA GIVE EVERYONE A SIMPLE WAY TO DO IT.
It'll be a few days, yet.
Turtle
Keith, Way ahead of you. I already bought enough acrylic to build a sealed electrolyte chamber to submerge the S-Cell in and collect the gas, precisely measure the output rates and calculate efficiency. I will later put it under the hood of may Honda Accord to measure performance and mileage boost, with and without EFIE, also EFIE by itself to get the most accurate results possible. It has been hinted that putting vacuum to the HHO generator such as from the intake manifold greatly increases gas production. I can't wait to see that in action!
I also can't wait to see what you conjure up for the collection chamber. Maybe I'll follow your lead.
On the automotive application, I've already begun collecting parts for that as well. I found that generic power brake vacuum booster check valves available at auto parts stores for about $4 each not only seal well in the reverse direction but flow gas much more freely in the open forward direction. Anyone considering this should look at the Magdrive site for their installation manual. It's available free of charge and quite detailed.
ZFF
.
Quote from: ZeroFossilFuel on July 21, 2007, 11:35:40 PM
<ZFF raises hand for teacher> Please see my progress this evening. Thanks. ZFF
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2PltvTUDgg4
Nice work zff, man you've done some readin' huh?
(yeah, I was the guy that my cell popped a leak) I've got my cell almost all together, I hope to have some posting pics / video this evening. We are going to have almost identical looking cells, only difference being that my plates are 3x3 for the neutrals & 3x4 for the + - +.
I had to laugh at the "oh, I know why this doesn't fit, I left the backing plastic on the s.s." I did the same thing the other day.
I'm looking forward to the effect all these new participants input will have on the progress Of I.H.'s Beast.
-rapttor
Video installment #4 is uploading as I write this.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1v36doW-34Q
I'm trying to get this thing together fairly rapidly. We're taking a fairly long car trip in a while and I want it churning under the hood the entire way. Another thought I had to increase gas production - Mount it in such a way that it receives vibration from the ICE. I will also be using NaOH instead of KOH. Easier to work with, safer for the motor and I can't believe that the amount of CO it produces as a biproduct will be all that appreciable.
Does anyone have any data on the CO production as a percentage of HHO when using NaOH?
IH, do you have any recommendation on the size of the electrolyte containment vessel relative to the S-Cell?
Lastly, I'd like to get cheaply or make from scratch a device to measure gas flow. Suggestions welcome.
ZFF
,
Quote from: Bouzouki on July 22, 2007, 03:52:57 PM
Very nice Cell. She is looking so professional. I too need to clean up my lab/shop today. Anyway thanks for the new video. Is there a reason to encase the cell in plastic and restrict the flow of electrolyte?
I am told it has been observed that completely electrically isolated cells in a neutral series cell system can produce up to 3 times the amount of gas over open plates just submerged in electrolyte. Haven't tried it myself yet but I will. The S-Cell has it's plates isolated only on three sides if you don't count conduction through the foam generated on top. It seemed logical to me that enclosing the bottom side might be more efficient. I am also told by those who have experimented with this for some time that it's more important to keep electrolyte flowing across the plates to release the gas bubbles allowing more rapid generation of new gas bubbles. I felt that a bottom plate with holes would allow me to experiment to see if there's a balance to be achieved.
This raises a question for me that I'd like to pose to the group. Should the side walls of the S-Cell be below the electrolyte level, at least on one side? How else will it flow freely? And would that not create more leakage current? Maybe free flow is not what's important, only the rapid release of bubbles from the plates. There are other ways to make that happen.
That's what makes this such a great little instructional cell...
Now you can investigate whether or not you should be keeping the neutral plates above the water level to prevent leakage.
And if you keep them above the water level.... how do keep them supplied with electrolyte?
Another thing I learned from watching your videos is that I immediately went and got some thicker material before I go cutting the slots in the sidewalls. Hope this will keep them from warping. I plan on using a little desktop CNC mill I have to do this with.
Dan
@ZFF;
A quick and dirty way of quantifying yer gas output is done with a tee, a couple stop cocks and a drum, any size, that can be laid upon its side, with watertight bung fittings capable of receiving yer hose.
Now then follow me in this. We are simply going to displace the water in the drum, and measure that thar volume, and compare same against time.
Setup. I'll use 3/8" barb fittings fer instance. Lay yer drum on its side, blocking so's it cain't roll nowhere, bungs vertical. With yer barb fittings placed it the appropriate reducers, attach the lower one to yer garden hose, venting the top hose to atmosphere. Fill with water. When full, take yer fill pipe and hold it at least a foot above highest point of drum. Direct it thenceforth into an empty bucket, graduated cylinder, or any suitable container that'll tell ye how much water ya got.
Now, take the 3/8" hose from the top bung, the one that was pukin' water whenever y'all filled the drum full... take that thar hose and attach it, plum full o' water, to yer tee, the tee that comes offa yer unit gas output. The height of the water-pukin' hose that empties into the measuring container, that dischagre point determines head pressure applied to the cell. Hold it up 10' above the top of the drum and y'all got about 4.33 PSI of back-pressure.
The rest is academic. Valve to send yer gas to the drum, noting time, amps, yada yada, whatever, and the gas sent to the drum dislaces water to yer bucket. Run to yer hearts content, but keep in mind the explosive potential of the drum contents.
Now you can determine amps applied fer gas output. See, it ain't "rokit scyense" after all.
You might had oughta make provisions (fittings) to put the water back into the drum under pressure, forcing gas back out in a controlled manner, and you really don't wanna light it.
Turtle
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I sorta was looking for the floating ball thingy that actually shows the flow rate in real time.
The reason I hadn't considered the drum idea is because I want to avoid any vacuum or back-pressure from affecting the results. I suppose if the water pukin' hose is placed in the measuring container with it's level just below the drum, vacuum/pressure effects should be negligible.
Thanks!
ZFF
Ah yes, sumthin' like this thang here
http://www.thermalmassflow.com/variable-area-flow-meters-q-flow.php
Bad part is, it's trimmed in gold. Somewhere behind us in this here thread IronHead had posted an all plastic rotameter (that's what they're sometimes called) that could be had for a song, or maybe with the refrain added, I think about $20 USD.
I had an old MIG welder with the floating ball flow meter, and they use dial gauges now. Mebbe a welding supply house might could lead y'all in the right direction.
That barrel idea might be a bit cumbersome haulin' down the beltway, uh huh ...
That discharge hose has to be above the water level in the drum, else it'll exert a vacuum till an air pocket gets in and messes with yer numbers. Might could invert it in the measuring bucket to create a water interface, then lower it.
Back around page 35 (?) is a pic of my inverted graduate to measure <2Litre output. It exerted a vacuum on the cell which profoundly exaggerated production numbers. I'd rather pressurize it to a standard level and go from there. Ain't got the VAC thang figgerd out, cuz manifold vac varies with throttle plate position. I like IH's dual line and checkvalve deal- pull from the best vac available.
Turtle
I noticed with this new cell I just finished that the container I had it in did not let the bubbles and the electrolyte flow thru it when I tested it. I am going to have to raise the level up just a bit I think by getting a deeper container. The electrolyte got hot pretty fast using 220 rectified. I just used some plates I already had from another project and up scaled it. These plates are 4 x 6 inch plates 1/4 inch spacing. Here are a couple pictures of it.
I think I have a couple of them that still has some oil on it or something!
WooHOO, reddb49;
Now that's a serious cell.
To get the 220, did y'all use two 110 recifiers in series, and were they powered on the same 110 line, two differnt 110 phases, or both hots of a 220 to the single rectifier?
Or, as I might think, yer in the UK and that's yer mains power?
Dang it...
Turtle
This is both hots to a single bridge rectifier. I have it in my shop and my workbench is next to my breaker box. Just hooked the bridge straight to a 30 Amp 220 breaker, and run the negative to the neutral leg. Have everything insulated and very careful with it.
Don't know where my head is. I hooked this up wrong from the bridge rectifier to the cell. Think--Think-- 2 pos, 1 neg, no neutral to anywhere. That might be why I have no output around the center of the cell on one side. Need 2 positives from the bridge and I was only using 1.
Neg from bridge to center plate. Pos to one end. Jumper from that to other end. AND GIT RID OF THEM STEENKIN' GATOR CLIPS! Bolt them thar wires down!
With the kinda power yer workin' with y'all don't need to bump a wire an' get an arc/spark. Can y'all say KABOOM?!?
OK not to be harsh, but the point needs made. Please be careful. As a burn survivor I wouldn't wish that fate on nobody.
That why I hang out in the pond.
Turtle
Good progress today everyone.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hpDts6ilufk
Turtle - That's the gizzmo. I'll poke around for one but will still use what ever standard is settled upon here for comparison testing. Can we agree on some height differential that's more manageable? Like 5 feet instead?
Redd - That's a nice looking cell but I will not engage in any comparison testing against a 15x2 cell that's 4"x6"! Only the standardized 2"x2", 9 cell x2 platform. Results are meaningless unless we all use at least roughly the same platform.
ZFF
With the number of plates redd is runnin', he be in another league. Let's hear his numbers as he goes along. I have larger cells in the works as well.
If y'all have any luck findin' that cheapo rotameter, be sure to post it here. I could use several.
I ain't sure if there be a standard discharge pressure we wanna use, but it certainly would go a long way in gittin' some concrete numbers attached to our cells' performance. Any thoughts, y'all? Kinda goes against the whole vacuum thang, as previously discussed.
Thanks, ZFF
And keep track, reddb49. Thanks fer contributatin'!
Turtle
Nice work on the cell, ZFF. Looks like y'all done grabbed the bull by the horns!
Turtle
Sorry I'm late coming back from lunch Teach... Here's my homework...
Ain't the pertiest... but sure is function over form.
Top view, edges and outside ends of the two + plates sealed.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gearheadkustoms.com%2FHFE_REV%2520D1.jpg&hash=4ffe2fbf3b0139a131144749326d04235c56a5f5)
Blurry side shot.. (pre coffee shakes?)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gearheadkustoms.com%2FHFE_REV%2520D2.jpg&hash=66c3989c7ed4bf58df44a055a1f1432b18603c86)
View looking up through the unit, from the bottom.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gearheadkustoms.com%2FHFE_REV%2520D3a.jpg&hash=e60b68cd8f159a09c9bf5ce98c1f2a74d89ce795)
I'll fire it up today...
-rapttor
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Great video ZFF. Looks like we could definitely see what?s going on in your cell, great job! By the way Turtle I got "RID OF THEM STEENKIN' GATOR CLIPS", lol. That?s all I need to have an explosion that would straighten this curly hair out. Already had one occasion with a small detonation in a bucket at close range. Guess that?s where I got that annoying ringing in my ears for several minutes. :)
Video #7 is up covering wiring and insulation techniques. No Gator clips here.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=eQRXw33mRAc
No HHO tonight. But tomorrow..... >:-) <--- Mad scientist evil grin
Cheers,
ZFF
Great job
I highly recommended to use stainless steel strips to make the connection inside the Cell container along with stainless steel nuts, bolts and washers.
.
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22 to 18g 1/2" to 3/4" strip .
I did a layered strip insulated with goop with four layers of 20g x1/2" for a 60 amp Big Cell.
Excellent idea. I have plenty of extra SS I can make strips from. The hardware is already stainless. I'll swap it out tomorrow. Thanks everyone.
.
Quote from: Bouzouki on July 23, 2007, 08:29:56 PM
Do we get to see it fired up today? I just finished my pwm and am waiting for the goop to dry on my cell....
I couldn't locate my webcam, so I took a vid of it on my Cell this morning, and now I can't save the file down to upload it to utube, goddamn shareware... quicktime.
I'll post it up when I can get this figured out. I got it running decent at 100 - 104V / 8A, I have to rig a bubbler to see what kind of volume I'm getting.
-rapttor
I changed my mind. This first cell is my protype experimental cell. I'll just let sealing the copper terminals with marine adhesive become part of the experiment to see how long it holds up. If I create SS straps, then I have to seal the spans between connection points. That will set me back another day and I want this thing producing yesterday!
ZFF
ZFF, you can tap acrylic, but you have to do it carefully, for any unequal pressures during the tapping process will crack it. Also, you need to get a pipe / npt tap which is a little different than a standard tap. Let me know if you have a problem finding it near you I've got a great place near me I get my stuff through. Maybe they have a shop near you... here's the link:www.wttool.com (http://www.wttool.com) It's called Wholesale Tool Co.
You may consider Tapping the cover, that way if it does crack on you, you can just cut another lid vs. building another cell enclosure.
I like your ideas on the wiring connections to the outside.
-rapttor
.
.
Quote from: Bouzouki on July 24, 2007, 12:50:15 PM
Those of you looking for a change in the world look to this guy. He has been inventing for quite some time and has some pretty good ideas. The relevence to this thread is that he is using xyleen and acetone in his electrolizer which he holds the pantent on by the way. Check him out here. http://www.energyempire.com/ he has a nice Perm Mag moter as well. I can tell you this guy isn't full of shit.
Sorry dude. Anyone who puts anything in any way related to the Sundance machine is peddling snake oil. IMHO.
ZFF
,
Yes, good video... but, I.H. posted these a few pages back. It's an entire series.. it would take you at least a couple days if not a week to watch them all.
-rapttor
This is the collection so far
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2792.0.html
Here's my cell running at 100Vdc @ just about 8A, the video quality sucks, I used my Cell phone to take it, I'll have to locate my webcam to take a better quality.
From room temp to Boil in about 3.5 to 4 minutes. Strange thing though, maybe you have some input I.H. But on my previous build, the current dropped as the temps went up, this one the current starts at 3A and builds to 8A. There's very very little NaOH in this maybe a 1/16 of a teaspoon.
I couldn't download the video to my laptop, so here's a webshare.
http://pictures.sprintpcs.com/share.do?invite=nEprJ5J8PYPEB7i887vQ&shareName=MMS&messageState=RETRIEVED (http://pictures.sprintpcs.com/share.do?invite=nEprJ5J8PYPEB7i887vQ&shareName=MMS&messageState=RETRIEVED)
all input welcome of course.
-rapttor
.
Tonight's installment...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e4NbJBwVzI
Cheers,
ZFF
HI! Zerofossil,
Very nice design and build! Great job!
How can you refill water?
Alex
Quote from: alexleigh on July 25, 2007, 02:54:55 AM
HI! Zerofossil, Very nice design and build! Great job! How can you refill water?
Top is removable. There will also be added fittings once I make it a closed loop circulating system.
Question for IH and the group on initial precharging of the plates - Why start with positive on the outside plate and work the neutral plates in succession toward the middle? Would it not be better to put that first charge a cross adjacent plates one at a time? Hope to get an answer soon. I want to prep the cell this morning!
From what I have done it just seems to work best that way .
I really do not have a good solid scientific explanation for this.
All though there is a fraction of a theory that I have thought abut.
I Have done this many ways and again it just works best this way
Quote from: IronHead on July 25, 2007, 11:22:19 AM
From what I have done it just seems to work best that way .
I really do not have a good solid scientific explanation for this.
All though there is a fraction of a theory that I have thought abut.
I Have done this many ways and again it just works best this way
Results from your experience on this point is good enough for me. Preconditioning begins...
Mwuaaaa Haaaa Haaa Haa Haa Ha
My current draw with water from our company water cooler is only about 2mA to start out. Does that seem right to you?
Hi, ZeroFossilFue
First let me say nice work and approach to construction on your cell.
Second, re: fitting
May I suggest a SS fitting to keep all exposed components in same relative neutral potential. I just saw your last video, and the method of taping and mounting the fitting. I was going to propose something similar, eg straight hole drill as you did, and use of Teflon tape or acrylic glue. Also a threaded SS pipe straight fitting with SS nuts and washes on both sides, so you can mount any kind of fitting on the outside and even use it as a feed through. Also use of a plastic fitting such as the ones used in aquariums, might work well (it will also exclude the introduction of another metallic potential in the cell)
Re: SS bridge of the 2 outer electrodes.
Instead of using a bride inside the cell, feed them through the wall independently like you?ve done with the center electrode and connect them out side the cell. (Total of 3 electrical all SS feed troughs on this particular configuration). This may add flexibility in connectivity schemes down the future and also eliminate completely the SS strip over the cell and the possibility of leakage currents through it, especially at elevated voltages sealant cracking etc.
Re: your top seal. Depending on your machining capabilities, if possible machining a small groove U or square shape into the top plate, measure the total perimeter length, and obtain an O ring of appropriate thickness and Diameter (diameter same as the machined groove total path length or the perimeter of your rectangular top. Insert the O ring into the grove and use the bolts to compress it and have a seal and replaceable parts with it.
Or a fairly cheap way it to make your own gasket out of an old rubber tire or another selected elastic sheet material. Just cut it with the exacto knife, rectangular shape to much the top of your cell outer walls, allow undersized holes for the mounting botls etc.
Interesting thread.
Again, nice work from all the contributors.
What is your voltage? If you don't have enough voltage to feed the whole cell (n plates) plus the amount of resistance in the water i can see you only pulling 2ma.
How did you or have you charged your cell yet?
Your going to have voltage drop on each cell. Not sure on how many plates you have but just say you have 18 plates that means you have 17 cells...You need a min voltage of 1.24v possibly lower (I haven't been able to get lower than that) per cell so you need a min of 1.24 X 17 cells = 21V so 2 12 volt batts in series or 24 volts from a power supply.
This does not say that you can't go over 24 volts but this is a baseline (my own anyway) for the min voltage needed for your cell.
Quote from: ZeroFossilFuel on July 25, 2007, 12:33:20 PM
My current draw with water from our company water cooler is only about 2mA to start out. Does that seem right to you?
Quote from: hkyle on July 25, 2007, 01:24:37 PM
What is your voltage?
Quote from: ZeroFossilFuel on July 25, 2007, 12:33:20 PM
My current draw with water from our company water cooler is only about 2mA to start out. Does that seem right to you?
13.45 VDC as instructed. When I disconnect the supply I still see residual voltage on the terminals, around 2v. I will later bring in a variable supply in a bit to ramp it to 24, then 36, then 48.
Sorry I was typing when you were posting lol....just use that 13v for charging your cell..you will only be able to charge half of the cell at a time...but...that is why
Quote from: ZeroFossilFuel on July 25, 2007, 01:35:55 PM
Quote from: hkyle on July 25, 2007, 01:24:37 PM
What is your voltage?
Quote from: ZeroFossilFuel on July 25, 2007, 12:33:20 PM
My current draw with water from our company water cooler is only about 2mA to start out. Does that seem right to you?
13.45 VDC as instructed. When I disconnect the supply I still see residual voltage on the terminals, around 2v. I will later bring in a variable supply in a bit to ramp it to 24, then 36, then 48.
My positive jumper strap is assembled. Both halves will be charged together. At the very start when you progress down the stack, current between the first two plates was about 70mA, then drops exponentially as you move away plate by plate (ie 2nd plate 18mA, 3rd plate 6mA etc.). By the middle it's 1.15mA. Put the two halves together and it's about 2.3mA. Bubbles are forming very slowly but there is no heat to speak of. That's why I'm confused about IH's comment "Let it run for 20 min and keep an eye on heat, then let it cool down" ??? What ever.
BTW, the cell contruction is an exact replica of the S-Cell on pg 14. 9 cell's per side, 2 sides wired parallel, 1.49999V per cell.
Yes it will......You will see once ya put some more current to the cell. Leave it the way it is for now but when you get your power supply going you will see the difference.
Charge your cell with the 13v work from the outside in towards the middle. You don't need to hold the power on the plate for a long period your just aligning and conditioning the plate for the magnetic field your going to create. Do both sides of cell.
Once you have done that put it on 24v. Hook it up like your suppose to pos on ends n in the middle and let that cook for 20 to 30 mins. You won't see very much activity and won't notice that much of a heat build up at first but it all depends on how many amps your pulling into your cell. You can increase the voltage double it 48v 96v what ever at this point your just charging your cell and water.
Once you have that completed add some KOH...not much a little goes a long way. Like Ironhead said about the size of a pill. You will notice your amps will go way up. Let that cook for a while..
Come back and post the results on what you see different with the cell...surface tension bubble sizes...did your cell hold voltage.....that kind of stuff.
Quote from: ZeroFossilFuel on July 25, 2007, 01:50:07 PM
My positive jumper strap is assembled. Both halves will be charged together. At the very start when you progress down the stack, current between the first two plates was about 70mA, then drops exponentially as you move away plate by plate (ie 2nd plate 18mA, 3rd plate 6mA etc.). By the middle it's 1.15mA. Put the two halves together and it's about 2.3mA. Bubbles are forming very slowly but there is no heat to speak of. That's why I'm confused about IH's comment "Let it run for 20 min and keep an eye on heat, then let it cool down" ??? What ever.
.
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@ Bouzouki - Mega ditto's on your tubular cell.
@Hkyle - How long should I let this thing charge before I can consider adding KOH?
Just got back from a 200 mile trip using the little booster in the mr2. I got 36 mpg on the trip. A little disappointing, but the unit behaved itself (didn't overheat, explode, etc.). I got 41 when first installed, but I've made several changes. Guess it's time to clean it up and start again. BTW, I think it's important to have an on/off switch in the cabin, just in case. This is the one I put in the car.
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x171/mryikes/2007_0725switch0001.jpg
Switch is a must!
On our test cells: One of our problems is getting the H out of the solution. We can all see that the bubbles just foam back into the solution and head down. I feel that our production rates will increase when we find a way to liberate the H as soon as we separate them from the O. I believe that it is surface tension that is holding the H in solution. One method of reducing surface tension involves a compound of silicone. So my bright idea was to spray wd-40 on the cell. Immediately the solution became clouded. After many hours of running, it has turned to what looks like parafin laying on top. There was no increase of H. My cell now needs to be stripped, cleaned and recharged. So, don't do it.
My failures are my gift.
My tektronix oscilloscope came while I was gone, so I get to play with that for a while. Has anyone compared the Boyce pulser to the lawton?
It is now time to jump in with both feet and do this.I read the whole post and it was fascinating .Iron Head I would like to thank you for going open source and posting your expertise on hydrogen.It may start slow, but it will hit critical mass and be unstoppable.I know at least a dozen people that will run with this when they see how well it works.Again Thank You for the information. ;D Moose53
Quote from: yikes on July 25, 2007, 03:09:51 PM
On our test cells: One of our problems is getting the H out of the solution. We can all see that the bubbles just foam back into the solution and head down. I feel that our production rates will increase when we find a way to liberate the H as soon as we separate them from the O. I believe that it is surface tension that is holding the H in solution. One method of reducing surface tension involves a compound of silicone. So my bright idea was to spray wd-40 on the cell. Immediately the solution became clouded. After many hours of running, it has turned to what looks like parafin laying on top. There was no increase of H. My cell now needs to be stripped, cleaned and recharged. So, don't do it.
My failures are my gift.
My tektronix oscilloscope came while I was gone, so I get to play with that for a while. Has anyone compared the Boyce pulser to the lawton?
Engine vacuum
Photon energy to keep the bubbles from reforming water.
.
Cut my SS plates out today and got my slitting saw from Enco tools.Should have the plastic cut tomorrow.If anyone needs 316 SS I can supply 16 2x2 and 3 2x3 .046in plates for $35.00. ;D Moose53
.
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Giver a bit...It dosent have to be for hours...giver a half hour watch temps...then slowly add some koh/lye...watch the amps..study your cell. What changes are taking place with the water / with the cell / with the plates.....?
It is quite noticable.
Quote from: ZeroFossilFuel on July 25, 2007, 02:34:56 PM
@ Bouzouki - Mega ditto's on your tubular cell.
@Hkyle - How long should I let this thing charge before I can consider adding KOH?
hi there ZFF,
If you are interested in alighning the fields in yer cells this is wat you can do,since yer voltage is under 14v you can take the first plate and make it negative or possitive,add 5 nuetral plates, then make an opossitive polarity plate from the first,instead of make'n the next plate s.s. use an acrylic plate in the next slot,then the next s.s. plate will be the opposit of the last power plate you made and then add another 5 nuetral plates with another power plate on then end of those....you may need to change the amount of neutral plates according to how many slots ya have in there but you can see the pattern.If you do that way the fields will line up and couple properly.You will see the field start from the negative side all the way thru the acrylic to the end of yer cell stack to to the anode side.The anode pulls that way.It may be to problamatic to try and compare but just thought i'd throw that at ya in case you wanna try it.
Okay. I was out chaperoning tonight. Left it on my bench at 13.5v for 8 hours. Very tiny gas production. 2.2mA steady brought it up to 48v with a variac, full wave bridge and filtered with an electrolytic cap. 10mA. Whoopeee! Slowly mixed in about 1/10 tsp of sodium bicarb to bring mA up to about 200 mA and let it run for a bit. Definitely saw some gas production. It was uneven but the same on both sides. My plates are numbered. Negative plate is zero. Working out in both directions is 1 through 9 (pos) sides A & B.
Between plates 8 & 9 became cloudy with microscopic bubbles (presumably H2) and some foamy looking scum.
Between plates 7 & 8 same.
Between all other plates 0 - 7 some larger bubbles.
Probed each pair of adjacent plates and here's what I measured on side B:
0/1 = 3.6v
1/2 = 3.8v
2/3 = 3.9v
3/4 = 4.2v
4/5 = 4.6v
5/6 = 5.5v
6/7 = 6.3v
7/8 = 8.5v
8/9 = 8.0v
Similar voltage spread on side A. This brings me back to a previous question about precharging the plates one by one with one terminal fixed to the positive and working toward the center down the stack. Plates that started with the greatest voltage potential across them produce more H2. Would it not be best to precharge each pair of adjacent plates one by one with the 12v before starting?
Later ramped it up to 96v and shot this video. http://youtube.com/watch?v=ePn2wSIAt4o
ZFF
Seems like the electric fields are confused and are have'n a fight..with 48 volts on 9 cells each cell shuld read 5.3 volts.The fight ther have'n useally can be won by the way mentioned earlier or change the number of nuetral plates.There may be other ways to get it streightened out Im not familar with.Interesting project ya got and good job on the videos. 8)
of course the easiest way tho with the power supply you have is just to connect t o the end plates.
@ZFF
Have you tried to "rough up" the plates on both sides with vertical scratches
or do they still have the brushed finish on them?
Dan
Quote from: dlwammo on July 26, 2007, 06:19:49 AM
@ZFF
Have you tried to "rough up" the plates on both sides with vertical scratches
or do they still have the brushed finish on them?
Dan
If you've been following my brief video series you'd know. They are deeply and well sanded vertical with 36 grit.
@zff
Check to see if you have even resistance between the cells. It's a pretty good build so it should be quite even. If not dump that baking soda stuff and try again. I don't like using baking soda, go down to the old grocery store and pick up some lye. Well if they sell it in your area anymore.
The reason why you have small bubbles on the outside and bigger ones in the middle is because of the field you are creating..surface tention..resistance in you cell. You have a stronger field on the outsides and a weaker one in the middle. The more voltage to have on the cell the greater the field will be. Think about it....voltage...metal plates....equals.........
Also how did you add the soda to the cell?
Quote from: ZeroFossilFuel on July 26, 2007, 10:34:32 AM
Quote from: dlwammo on July 26, 2007, 06:19:49 AM
@ZFF
Have you tried to "rough up" the plates on both sides with vertical scratches
or do they still have the brushed finish on them?
Dan
If you've been following my brief video series you'd know. They are deeply and well sanded vertical with 36 grit.
Put the neg on the volt meter onto the Neg middle electrode. Take the Positive starting at the far end and touch and record each voltage from the outside in....
what are the results?
umm not this way.....
0/1 = 3.6v
1/2 = 3.8v
2/3 = 3.9v
3/4 = 4.2v
4/5 = 4.6v
5/6 = 5.5v
6/7 = 6.3v
7/8 = 8.5v
8/9 = 8.0v
This way Left row pos / right row neg....
1/1 should be 48v
1/2 =
1/3 =
1/4 =
1/5 =
1/6 =
1/7 =
1/8 =
1/9 =
I will look for lye but I'm making no promises,
re: voltages, just add. They add up to 48 which is what I put in. Since they divide across the cells at all, albeit unevenly, there is resistance. Simple series resistance circuit.
All I did to add the baking soda was take off power, stir it into the electrolyte tank outside the plate cavity, swish it around good to let it wash into the plate cavity and reapply voltage.
Also tried connecting it to my intake manifold vacuum this morning. That was almost a big mistake. The long sides of the tank buckled inward. My top cover needs a ridge of acrylic that centers it to the tank like a cookie jar lid before I tyr that again. :-\
ZFF, if you have it sealed up that good, you might consider a bleed off valve, that you can just crack open to allow a minute amount of outside air in, so it doesn't fracture your cell housing. another option, build it out of heavier acrylic... like 3/8".
just babbling...
-rapttor
Yes that was the point I was trying to make...you have uneven resistance in each cell. You should have equal resistance throughout.
Quote from: ZeroFossilFuel on July 26, 2007, 12:22:00 PM
I will look for lye but I'm making no promises,
re: voltages, just add. They add up to 48 which is what I put in. Since they divide across the cells at all, albeit unevenly, there is resistance. Simple series resistance circuit.
All I did to add the baking soda was take off power, stir it into the electrolyte tank outside the plate cavity, swish it around good to let it wash into the plate cavity and reapply voltage.
Also tried connecting it to my intake manifold vacuum this morning. That was almost a big mistake. The long sides of the tank buckled inward. My top cover needs a ridge of acrylic that centers it to the tank like a cookie jar lid before I tyr that again. :-\
Ok you are working with one single module here . A car would need more than one in parallel.
But here is a basic single module box design.I am hoping this is self explanatory.
You are building a vacuum chamber that sees vacuum levels of 20 to 30inchs.
Just look at these two cells if you need to see one put together:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKzlh-lr58E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxJ-Wrdd-t4
I will be glad to trade someone some acrylic for some 316ss 3x3 plates.
(Getting the house ready for the baby in 3mon has taken all my moneyÃ, :-[)
Thanks
HHD
Ã,Â
if anyone in az see a car with the lic number 215-YBG around 44th ave and I-10 let me know. they just broke in to my car!!!!
.
Dang HHD looks like you sure got er cook'n......you wanna build a box for some cash?
@HHD;
New baby on the way, eh? I reckon I can arrange a deal on those plates. How many do you need? Tell me what y'all can get by with, minimum number, and I'll have 'em shear yers too. But you gotta finish 'em ! <lazy grin>
Fed-ex sez $20 to yer place.
Turtle
I can cut plastic now!Hope to have it glued together by this weekend,in the mean time I can read the instructions again. ;D
Quote from: Hot Hydro Dady on July 26, 2007, 05:13:44 PM
Just look at these two cells if you need to see one put together:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKzlh-lr58E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxJ-Wrdd-t4
I will be glad to trade someone some acrylic for some 316ss 3x3 plates.
(Getting the house ready for the baby in 3mon has taken all my money :-[)
Thanks
HHD
if anyone in az see a car with the lic number 215-YBG around 44th ave and I-10 let me know. they just broke in to my car!!!!
@HHD - Really nice. What are you using for electrolyte? Tap, spring or distilled? How much current? How many plates? Plate composition, dimensions and spacing? How much current and voltage?
Good job on your cell rapttor... ;D
One thing to try is run the cell on 24 or 36 volts at 8amps. check to see if the temps rise. They probably won't.
With 100 - 118volts going into the cell temps will rise.
Using voltages around 1.24 volts your cell will not increase in heat. The heat gets obsorbed. This is a endothermic reaction. If you go over 1.24volts, you will make heat this is called a Exothermic reaction.
Now try and get the same output on less wattage than 800w..
Quote from: rapttor on July 24, 2007, 03:58:05 PM
Here's my cell running at 100Vdc @ just about 8A, the video quality sucks, I used my Cell phone to take it, I'll have to locate my webcam to take a better quality.
From room temp to Boil in about 3.5 to 4 minutes. Strange thing though, maybe you have some input I.H. But on my previous build, the current dropped as the temps went up, this one the current starts at 3A and builds to 8A. There's very very little NaOH in this maybe a 1/16 of a teaspoon.
I couldn't download the video to my laptop, so here's a webshare.
http://pictures.sprintpcs.com/share.do?invite=nEprJ5J8PYPEB7i887vQ&shareName=MMS&messageState=RETRIEVED (http://pictures.sprintpcs.com/share.do?invite=nEprJ5J8PYPEB7i887vQ&shareName=MMS&messageState=RETRIEVED)
all input welcome of course.
-rapttor
Sometimes another set of eyes, sometimes a smack on the head with a shovel like in my case... thanks HKyle for pointing that out, so simple I didn't see it.
-rapttor
Hey fellas. I've read every page in this monster of a thread. Got my box sealed up. having my plates cut as I type. Some acrylic sides and i'll be caught up.
Just would like to say, You're a great group. I appreciate the whole 103pgs. I've learned so much. Can't wait to see what my rig teaches me.
Thanks IH and others.
Out of interest, has anyone compared the series brute cell with an equal plated equal electrolyted sized, etc parallel cell? just as a comparison of output/voltage/amperage, to see the watts per litre between the two.
Many seem to be doing this and there are a few videos somewhere in this massive matrix of words .
I have and I'm telling you now that parellel cells are a waste of time...Not even close to the efficiency that you can get out of a series cell. I have got twice as much gas out of a small series cell that I got out of a parellel cell with.
But then you don't have to worry about current leakage as much as a series cell. IronHead is right some people are experimenting with them but thats mostley because they don't know of the power of a series cell.
Yes series cells are harder to build and take alot more thinking to find a good design where you don't have to worry about sloshing and leakage and stuff....but....
Quote from: d3adp00l on July 27, 2007, 08:00:36 PM
Out of interest, has anyone compared the series brute cell with an equal plated equal electrolyted sized, etc parallel cell? just as a comparison of output/voltage/amperage, to see the watts per litre between the two.
Welcome to the thread strapped9...Look forward to seeing your progress on your cell.
Quote from: strapped9 on July 27, 2007, 06:23:36 PM
Hey fellas. I've read every page in this monster of a thread. Got my box sealed up. having my plates cut as I type. Some acrylic sides and i'll be caught up.
Just would like to say, You're a great group. I appreciate the whole 103pgs. I've learned so much. Can't wait to see what my rig teaches me.
Thanks IH and others.
Quote from: d3adp00l on July 27, 2007, 08:00:36 PM
Out of interest, has anyone compared the series brute cell with an equal plated equal electrolyted sized, etc parallel cell? just as a comparison of output/voltage/amperage, to see the watts per litre between the two.
I've got all the hardware assembled fer jes a test. 2 x 3" plates, 19 in the Brute configuration, and 20 in a parallel arrangement. I can cut the common rails at select places and make it run "series / parallel" to get eacl plate pair closer to 2 or 3 volts to keep the heat down.
Both these stacks are urethane sided, and running the parallel cell at 15 amps proved no sweat fer the black goo. I jes got the Brute stack polarised last nite.
Ain't got the test done yet... currently modifying my cantex 6x6x6 bucket for circulation of electrolyte. There's too much heat generated to keep it running fer any meaningful length or time.
I used ZFF's approach to a baffle, and it looks pretty good so far. Thanks, ZFF!
Turtle
well I know now how iron electro plate ss, and destroy aligator clips while doing it. Ran a small 4 plate para cell for an hour to see how it would behave. water temp 159 C, amps 10, volts 12, created (as expected) an iron/hho bubbly slime on top, and corroded the alligator clips. cell started at 6.5 amps at 12v before water heated up.
d3adp00l, There doesnt seem to be to many ppl that can actually give you an accurate production rate on a paraelle cell as its output is mostly saturated in the water were as a sealed unit is all forced out of the solution...just a thought.
i was running 100v at 7-10a 40 4*4 plates of 302SS
[/quote]
@HHD - Really nice. What are you using for electrolyte? Tap, spring or distilled? How much current? How many plates? Plate composition, dimensions and spacing? How much current and voltage?
[/quote]
http://pesn.com/2007/03/11/9500461_ChrisPatton_waterfuel/
Interview for up and coming water fuel movie mp3
http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2007/03/11/9500461_ChrisPatton_waterfuel/070310_ChrisPatton_JamesRobey_waterfuel.mp3
Stack of plates 3x3", 0.078 thick 316L
Turtle
Wholly $hit turtle... I think you are a couple plates shy of an aircraft carrier......
I told 'im he might had oughta not put all them plates in the same cell, but the boy's kinda bull-haided, methinks...
(No offense, HHD)<big grin>
Turtle, the metalsmith
well between me and turtle we might be able to do something
You gonna urethane slab-side that stack?
Turtle
if I need to seal them I think I will powder coat them, any tried that?
Power coat jes the edges? Sealing refers to preventing amp leakage around the sides of the cell, forcing more current to crack more water. I don't know of any benefit in coating the entire plate; unless that stuff is conductive y'all might be greatly reducing output.
But I guess ye could try it, then we'd all know <grin>
Turtle
not the whole thing, just 1/8 on the edge, its really pretty easy to powder coat with accuracy, theres tape for masking just like painting.
ironhead.
tks for the link to patton .
this diesel engine and geet Patone , it possible an way.
Also i wat looking to "Nakamasu" find under "Nakamas" some
hydrogen patents:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7223497.PN.&OS=PN/7223497&RS=PN/7223497 Hydrogen Patent
http://patents.uspto.gov/web/patents/patog/week22/OG/patentee/alphaN_Utility.htm list of patents
http://www.rexresearch.com/nakamats/nakamats.htm ++
BUT : Nakamats "RADIUM BATTERY" not to FIND !!
Oh WONDERING ....:
THE WHOLE GOOGLE.COM dont know the WORD "Radium Battery" !! (asked from Germany to the WWW)
that i know also from "Shool".
WONDERING ! Thinking !?
It give "Problems" with them ?
Radiation are dangeros ?
Or the Free Energy is it ?
G.Pese
Have any guy read 2004 in web ,
that watercar fas found (invented) BEFORE 1886 (Karl Benz -with his Gasoline Car)
that make possibel better and bigger buisines than "Water driven Cars" ?
If some members have "saved" this "Links" , pls. give me an note:
http://stormloader.com/members/pese/look_for.html
G.Pese
P.S. Possibly , an very simple way , that was invented with sam basic
contruction as the newer "redesigned - oil consuming " motor . If the
oil mus be selled or imported , this is the money that must go round
the world. To make happy ....
Hi all,
Just got here last week, I'm up to page 47 on this thread and running like all get out. It will take some time and money to catch up but I'm with you so far (at least in basic understanding)
I built a 4 plate cell yesterday, running on 12 VDC @ 1.0 AMP. Made enough noise every 4 to 5 min. to get the neighbors looking from 30 yards away on my Britta filtered town water alone.
Keep it coming, I will build it somehow.
Paul
Thanks "pese" and everyone. Also Welcome to the forums "atfab"
I am thinking of starting a thread with my old GEET system .
I have to dig everything out and take some pics along with drawing up schematics of what we found with a great little modified design. A pretty easy build and works very well. This one uses fuel and water injection to the B-Chamber . MegaSquirt controller on solenoids keeps levels correct .Upwards of 100 mpg on 4.0L Jeep.
I would also show how to run Geet with and HHO Cell together.
Is anyone interested in the GEET system here ?
IronHead
Yes Sir... the GEET system has been tried and and proven ehh.....wuld be really kewl man !!!
Lets see it, I am always interested.
Clueless. What's a GEET?
Ohhhh shi% yes please....ummm is enything in there gona freeze juring my um winter months....lol....
Quote from: IronHead on August 03, 2007, 10:32:15 PM
Thanks "pese" and everyone. Also Welcome to the forums "atfab"
I am thinking of starting a thread with my old GEET system .
I have to dig everything out and take some pics along with drawing up schematics of what we found with a great little modified design. A pretty easy build and works very well. This one uses fuel and water injection to the B-Chamber . MegaSquirt controller on solenoids keeps levels correct .Upwards of 100 mpg on 4.0L Jeep.
I would also show how to run Geet with and HHO Cell together.
Is anyone interested in the GEET system here ?
IronHead
GEET... gots to be an acronym for... lemme guess... Yup-
Gargantuan Electromagnetic Enthalpic Torroid... right?
Whatever it is, COUNT ME IN!!!
(Shut up and get back in the pond, turtle-y'all cain't even run a plasma reactor right!?!)
Turtle
LOL Ok guys I will do what I can to start a thread and alittle background on the GEET.
Easy to build for prototype . a full running system is alittle harder to do but very low cost.
Ever see a 454 big block chevy run on a lawnmower carburetor ? You will!
I love it bud. The geet has been an interest of mine since before i got into electrolysis. thanks much.
Great to hear, Soon all these scattered post will come together into one unique fuel system.
Just bare with me guys I know it has been a long road but the HHO part is very important and please keep on it .
Best regards to all
IronHead
I just realized this, this is what the GEET does.
http://www.startech.net/
http://www.plasmaenvironmental.com/
They generate enough energy to power themselves, plus some, tires or mostly anything works.
I gota re-read this stuff, they make Hydrogen by breaking the molecule, or by breaking the atoms??
Okay, mebbe it ain't so gargantuan after all. But still count me in, and I'm preparing the banking cell casing for several MiniBrutes, to run on demand.
More later.
Turtle
my grandfather told me about a guy that had an adapter plate made that fit under his carb on a big block motor.
He would use the 4 barrel carb to get up to speed, then flip a switch that activated a silanoid that switched to a lawnmower carb. my grandfather said he was getting about 70mpg. IH when you mentioned that it brought back the memory, thought id share. BTW here is a patent that I came across low V low I no heat http://www.google.com/patents?id=BxAuAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA3&dq=electrolysis+hydrogen#PPP1,M1 I didnt quite understand there diagram. it seemed a little obscure.
QuoteQuote from: hkyle on August 03, 2007, 11:20:35 PM
Ohhhh shi% yes please....ummm is enything in there gona freeze juring my um winter months....lol....Quote from: IronHead on August 03, 2007, 10:32:15 PM
Good ole, Mr. Pantone... yes I've dug into this as well, but had put it on the back burner until the hydrosonic pump & HHO are wrapped up. But I'm with all the other guys, Yes teach... We'll stay after school ...
"Young Jedi you must master the thermocatalytic cracking of a liquid to gaseous state first...ahuummm.
So lead into Experimentation & deliver us From Big Oil.... (about as religeous as I get).
-rapttor
Thats cool . I always wanted to do a Cell with corrugated plates. I have never been able to fine the material or spent the time to produce them myself.
Thanks "snoy"
With the exception of ongoing experiments with various electrolytes, my series on the S-cell construction is pretty much concluded. http://youtube.com/watch?v=OCCEvkX9gMU
Next a full production cell or cluster to supplement my vehicle and one to power my 5KW generator on 100% HHO from H2O!
End game: Leave the grid behind.
Cheers!
ZFF
@ZFF;
Ever read Lovins' "OIL END GAME"?
http://www.oilendgame.com/
It's yesterday's news now, but still cutting edge.
Turtle
Played some more today with the neon transformer, but no positive results yet. Then I wanted to verify that a closed cell would produce more. When closed it really sizzled. I will start making one when I get the plates.
Here is the cell open on 12 volts
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x171/mryikes/covertest/2007_0804coverplates0001.jpg
same cell on 12 volts but with 2 plates laying on top to partially close the top
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x171/mryikes/covertest/2007_0804coverplates0002.jpg
this is a top view
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x171/mryikes/covertest/2007_0804coverplates0003.jpg
same top view showing the cell really putting out
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x171/mryikes/covertest/2007_0804coverplates0004.jpg
take a look at the cell on the right, pressure forced the solution down about 1/2 inch
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x171/mryikes/covertest/2007_0804coverplates0005.jpg
the cell was making that sizzle sound we all like to hear and there was a lot of vapor flying off. To me that proves that sealing a cell is worth it. But,,,,,those plates were laying on top of and touching the neutral plates and also touching the negative plate. Did that ruin the test?
hey fellas. will have a nice high voltage dc power supply shortly. In fact my brother is paying for it.
I made a little cutting torch with my cheap plate cell and he bet me a power supply that i couldn't cut 2" into a 24 gauge plate of 316. haha took about 30 seconds. quick way to get funding.
I have a few vids on the "tube" now if anyone wants to take a peek at my cutting/welding torch. its 100% hho gas. Just to warn you the discoloration of the distilled water is because i was in between tests with my old orv radiator and over kill water pump. Trying to get a cooling system worked out so i can deal with higher voltage testing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkjQm4ICSH8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzGMsmtwFbc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZGbefilzxQ
Thanks guys, for about every post on overunity forum. I've learned a ton. Im going to keep on building along side of you guys. take care.
Glad to see yer progress, strapped9;
You appear to be aware of what's needed to do this safely, with the possible exception of meltin' metal where the fireballs can land on an acetone can!?!
<grimace>
Or is yer name from yer last visit to the ward... restraints, no?
Jes kiddin'
Glad to have y'all on board!
Turtle
IH, It would be helpful if someone would post some basic info on cells. acronems (sp) cell types / designs/ configurations. what has been discoverd already, that really makes a cell proform. Basic elements of safty, Ie:
bubler, I think that helps seperate your cell from the potential of back flame? scrubber, helps remove moisture from the gas? What does a nuetral plate do? what does unipolar electrodes mean? ect.
I have seen some info on how to plum a cell into your car, thanks IH. safty considerations, like hho safe one way valve on the brake booster, thanks. ect. I know you all have alot of info.
if we could put in the begining of this thread it would help people like me, that are conection speed challanged.
I know it can be time consuming, just rounding up the info already on this thread, not to mention all the other basic info that would help me to more fully understand everything.
sorry for the blathering post.
Ih on the patent that i posted, did you see anthing about how much gass is produced? If fairly high it would be of benifit to examine more closley why there is not excess heat, I assume low amps, low heat. It would be nice not to have a cooling system to install. food for thought.
thanks,snoyl.
Quote from: yikes on August 04, 2007, 08:32:21 PM
Played some more today with the neon transformer, but no positive results yet. Then I wanted to verify that a closed cell would produce more. When closed it really sizzled. I will start making one when I get the plates.
Here is the cell open on 12 volts
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x171/mryikes/covertest/2007_0804coverplates0001.jpg
same cell on 12 volts but with 2 plates laying on top to partially close the top
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x171/mryikes/covertest/2007_0804coverplates0002.jpg
this is a top view
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x171/mryikes/covertest/2007_0804coverplates0003.jpg
same top view showing the cell really putting out
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x171/mryikes/covertest/2007_0804coverplates0004.jpg
take a look at the cell on the right, pressure forced the solution down about 1/2 inch
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x171/mryikes/covertest/2007_0804coverplates0005.jpg
the cell was making that sizzle sound we all like to hear and there was a lot of vapor flying off. To me that proves that sealing a cell is worth it. But,,,,,those plates were laying on top of and touching the neutral plates and also touching the negative plate. Did that ruin the test?
Having the conductive plates on the top eliminated the center from being active, in a way yes it made the cell into a 9 plate system, instead of all the plates.
By the way, just to let you guys know, I think my nieghbors are behind me 100%. I was test burning some hho and they came out to admire my progress. I even got the sheriff to do a fly by to show their support. It really makes a difference when you know they people around you are glad you are working on such a noble pursuit. ;)
It is really nice to hear about real world neighborhood support.
Good luck d3adp00l
Build it and past it around
IronHead
I'd like to recap here some of what the experimental test cell has taught me so far.
A) It is reasonably accurate to say that gas production is proportional to wattage input (I x E) for a given concentration of electrolyte.
B) Increasing temp and/or raising the electrolyte concentration increases conductivity (lowers resistance) between plates.
C) Increasing conductivity proportionally increases gas production efficiency (i.e. 2x the conductivity, 1/2 the wattage to produce the same gas volume).
Consider now the test experiments we've seen with perpendicular plates at close spacing. Impressive gas from a small point at low wattage. Some have also reported that tilting some neutral plates away from parallel in a typical s-cell vastly increases their gas production.
Add this all up and think about how it might be applied to the s-cell in general. Specifically I'm thinking about the corrugated plates design. But, unlike the patent drawing, I would orient the plates such that they would not stack neatly, instead so that the points of the pleats were opposite each other at close proximity. This would allow for high gas production where the points nearly meet and high fluid exchange rate through the vertical channels in between and higher plate surface area overall. Wattage input would be a mystery until one of us finds a way to procure corrugated SS to test with.
ZFF
Thanks, ZFF fer posting yer observations. It helps us all grasp the outcome of yer trials.
I'll see my stamping shop classmate later this week; he may have some dies ready to run, and will take some strips of 26 ga 304 so's he can squarsh 'em.
I gots me some perf plate to work with that perpendicular idea as well. Earlier it was mentioned that epoxy don't do well in a caustic environment... but I gots some structural stuff ["bond yer 1/4 panel on yer ride" type] that's been screamin' "TRY ME" from the shelf.
What better use on a critically aligned stack, held true by shim spacers, then glue and remove spacing stock. This later this week hopefully.
And, if I can get it built, a flashback bubbler that uses HHO to recirculate the electrolyte, without a separate pump. No Kidding!
Oughta be an interesting week.
Turtle
Ok, I will pull one tooth at a time.
IronHead , You said "This type of system has run for months ( Rod adjustment weekly)before rebuild using a radiator to keep temps at bay.150F to 200F do not let it go below 150 as it will become unstable.
Why will it be unstable under 150F?
I have been gathering parts getting ready to build. can someone list some other safty items please. I know it might seem like comon sence. I would read every post to gleen the info, however my dail up is way slow. For some reason my 2.2 chip is running half speed. its not detecting enough power
I have watched some of the video footage, can you imagine how long it takes a 3 min video to load. 40 mins.
Im ready to play.
Thanks, Ron
Quote from: ZeroFossilFuel on August 05, 2007, 10:25:46 PM
I'd like to recap here some of what the experimental test cell has taught me so far.
A) It is reasonably accurate to say that gas production is proportional to wattage input (I x E) for a given concentration of electrolyte.
B) Increasing temp and/or raising the electrolyte concentration increases conductivity (lowers resistance) between plates.
C) Increasing conductivity proportionally increases gas production efficiency (i.e. 2x the conductivity, 1/2 the wattage to produce the same gas volume).
Consider now the test experiments we've seen with perpendicular plates at close spacing. Impressive gas from a small point at low wattage. Some have also reported that tilting some neutral plates away from parallel in a typical s-cell vastly increases their gas production.
Add this all up and think about how it might be applied to the s-cell in general. Specifically I'm thinking about the corrugated plates design. But, unlike the patent drawing, I would orient the plates such that they would not stack neatly, instead so that the points of the pleats were opposite each other at close proximity. This would allow for high gas production where the points nearly meet and high fluid exchange rate through the vertical channels in between and higher plate surface area overall. Wattage input would be a mystery until one of us finds a way to procure corrugated SS to test with.
ZFF
A) I would agree but it is not dependant on the electrolyte, just the wattage, increasing the conductivity by adding electrolyte only increases the amp draw and therefore increases output.
B)I would agree
C)I would disagree, increasing amp draw from my flow meter tests increases gas production in a linear fashion minus some ineffiecancies that go to heating the water, so as wattage goes up I have noticed that gas production loses effiecency. But that also my have to do with the nature of my tests.
Interesting that you speak of GEET!
That is the direction I decided to go a few weeks ago but thought not to mention it in order not to disturb this topic.
Now that the cats out of the bag, I'm ordering a mig welder! got some new stainless exhaust manifolds to build!
We need to use all the heat! transformation of water and fuel to a useable energy, is a good way to go.
I'll play on.
Luc
@gotoluc;
Y'all gonna try and weld stainless with a MIG? I gots one (Lincoln 255) and every welding shop sez I need to TIG stainless if I wanna decent job.
Lemme know how it comes out.
I ain't gonna buy a TIG fer this project jes yet... found me a good welder, an I can pay him fer quite a while fer what a TIG would cost in Turtlebucks.
Turtle
Quote from: keithturtle on August 06, 2007, 03:15:57 AM
@gotoluc;
Y'all gonna try and weld stainless with a MIG? I gots one (Lincoln 255) and every welding shop sez I need to TIG stainless if I wanna decent job.
Lemme know how it comes out.
I ain't gonna buy a TIG fer this project jes yet... found me a good welder, an I can pay him fer quite a while fer what a TIG would cost in Turtlebucks.
Turtle
Hey Turtle. Did you know you can buy or build a conversion torch for your mig. all ya need to do is get a tig torch that will fit the wire nozle on yer mig. the tig tip screws into the mig handle and the gas port flows through it. we call it a poor-mans tig-rig. Hefty to handle but but it works well. you just need the right shealding gas for stainless. Like aregon/C02 in a 50/50 works ok. You wont be welding aluminum with it . it takes a high freq machine for that. but the mig will weld stainles and other odball alloys .. If memory serves the last setup i did was like 30.00 for the parts and tungston. whats really gonna cost you is the stainless to practice on,
I havnt tried this yet but it is said an old wire nozle bored out to 5/32'' and a short peice of tungston (1''-1/14) incerted in to it friction fitand screwed back in to the mig stinger. Now you need to unhook the wire feed tensioner so it wont feed wire to the gun and with the right shiending gas yer all set to burn your first holes through a perfectly good peice of stainless.
Now the guys down at the weld shop prolly wont be of much help,cause they want to sell you a tig machine. Really the only difference is the stinger (Torch tip) and its gotta be a DC machine. Wich all migs are. Like i said not pretty and a little odd to handle compaired to a real tig but it will work.
Hope that Tip.. (Pun intended ::)) helps somone. Moab
@Turtle, I'm looking into a Mig at this time. Still got to figure if it's worth it or not ???.
@Moab, thanks for all the great welding tips, (pun intended)
Luc
Quote from: keithturtle on August 05, 2007, 10:38:35 PM
Thanks, ZFF fer posting yer observations. It helps us all grasp the outcome of yer trials.
I'll see my stamping shop classmate later this week; he may have some dies ready to run, and will take some strips of 26 ga 304 so's he can squarsh 'em.
I gots me some perf plate to work with that perpendicular idea as well. Earlier it was mentioned that epoxy don't do well in a caustic environment... but I gots some structural stuff ["bond yer 1/4 panel on yer ride" type] that's been screamin' "TRY ME" from the shelf.
What better use on a critically aligned stack, held true by shim spacers, then glue and remove spacing stock. This later this week hopefully.
And, if I can get it built, a flashback bubbler that uses HHO to recirculate the electrolyte, without a separate pump. No Kidding!
Oughta be an interesting week.
Turtle
@Turtle - I can't wait to see what you create!
@d3 - Here are my measurements that bear out my findings:
Increased the electrolyte concentration to double the conductivity. Whereas beforehand I needed 75V@10A (750W) to fill 500mL in 45 seconds, afterward was 32V@9.6A (300W) which filled 500mL in 60 Seconds. Extrapolated that's 500mL in 45 seconds at 400W. Electrolyte concentration was the only change.
With the concentrated electrolyte I drew 2.15A at 13.6V for 29 Watts. At this wattage it took 1050 seconds to fill 500mL. 1050/45=23 times slower. 400W/29W=17 times less wattage. Roughly 1/20 the wattage produced roughly 1/20 the gas. If it was relative to amperage, my gas production would have been about 1/4, not 1/20.
I will have more accurate results to present later but I'm pretty sure about this conclusion.
ZFF
I have been trying some NaOH for the past couple of weeks mixed at various concentrations in the water plus different types of water. Change over to Baking Soda to try for a while. This video I am using Baking Soda.
The NaOH seem to suds up to much and the bubbles would turn back down in the water. I have some KOH ordered and I am going to try that also with this cell.
I will agree with ZFF that as the temperature rose in the cell the amps would go up slightly. Started out a approximately 9 amps cold and went to 12 amps when the water was about 145 degrees.
This video I also put some plates every 4th spacing about 1/8 inch apart in the middle of the cell. Seems gas production went up when I tried this.
Just wondering if anyone has ever used High-Density Polyethylene? The black stuff that they use to make truck bed liners for a box to put the cell in. Seems it will stand high temperatures than Nylon or UHMW.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY1X99D9-Jc
I have a small Cambell Hausfeild and it works great. I just bought SSwire for it and does the job. If you want a cheep TIG unit go to Harbor Freight , I bought one and it's just fine 200 bucks! it's not the type welder it's the guy on the end of the tool. @ Ironhead is there a PDF file on this thread I can download I don't have time to go back and read the whole thred my time is getting real limited . Mike
BTW HHO makes a very good SS welder with practice :)
"Motorcoach" , Go here all you need to get started up is at the bottom of the page.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2057.900.html
Good Luck
IronHead
Thanks, all fer the MIG TIG tips. I've been outa the collision repair business fer pert near two decades now, so now most my weldin' is dumb big mild steel, trailer frames and farm stuff, no more HSLA, alloys, etc.
I've had reasonably good luck with the chinese tool store (Harbour Freight). I might dare to try their TIG.
I ain't big on convertin' tools if'n I can avoid (=afford) it. With whatever I've spent so far, that TIG will reach <grimace>
@ZFF; check out that chinese watt meter on the cold fusion thread. Yes, Harbor freight, $30 US. Works like a champ, but I ain't gonna push the limit with it.
Gots the acrylic slabs & parters cut fer them thar bubblers; as far as the circulation goes, think "undergravel filter" in yer fishbowl. It's the head levels and backpressure balancing that'll give the turtle fits. We shall see.
More later.
Turtle
hey, here is something i came arross 1934 patent # 2,006,676 water carb. You all probly have seen this but here is the source http://www.keelynet.com/energy/garrett.htm.
Ron.
Tonight I tried my new gas metering device. It worked flawlessly! The modified cell not so flawlessly. Sid was right. MUCH more leak-by current across the bottom when I was forced to cut out the perforated bottom plate. I also had gas coming off both sides of the positive electrodes because there was nothing to insulate the back sides and lots in the middle around the negative. Despite all this, overall efficiency still improved slightly, offset by the gain of closer plate spacing. It also ran noticeably cooler. What I learned:
A) The perforated floor of my plate cavity design did in fact provide some leakage isolation. I highly recommend it.
B) It's important to insulate the back side of the positive plates. Even though both positive plates are at the same potential relative to each other, there is still lots of leakage through the solution to the negative bypassing the neutral plates.
It's full steam ahead now on the next generation cell. It will have neutral plates 1/2" higher than the side walls, edges sealed with adhesive into the side wall grooves and electrolyte level about 1/4" above the side walls. Can't wait to show it off!
Now if I can only find a builder with scrap 4" PVC drain pipe laying around......
ZFF
P.S. Forum email notifications for me lately have been unreliable at best. Anyone else notice a problem?
Posting in this thread because of the high interest it continues to generate. Found Potassium Hydroxide KOH locally today! Home Depot in the plumbing section for drain openers. It is in liquid form but I'll take what I can get. It's Pequa brand Heavy Duty Drain Opener. 32oz white plastic bottle with red lettering about $6. Hope it works. Cheers!
ZFF
@zff you 75v test showed .88ml hho per watt minute, and the 32v shows 1.66ml per watt minute, and the 13v shows .98ml per watt minute. Which I find to be interesting indeed. Generally speaking in an electrical system output is simply a function of watts, volts and amperage matter little, you can get the same work done with 120v @10a as 12v @100a however your results are indicating no such relationship. and in all reality your results also show no relation between volts or amps and output. In my tests so far as v increases so does amps (as does yours seemingly) and output increases in a fairly linear manner, v up a up output up. But as IH has said it seems that there is a sweetspot for l per watt minute, which will be nice to note therefore a more eff. voltage for the cell can be applied instead of wasting power. I imagine the optimum v has to do with spacing and surface area. We should see about mapping that out. Right now I am working with an open cell as a baseline, be production is in the 500ml per minute range which makes testing a large data grid a long process, I need a more sensitive flow meter.
@d3 - That's correct. It's not a simple relationship. There are other factors such as convection currents within the cell that increase efficiency as production rises, to a practical limit where the maximum flow rate through the plates is achieved by convection only.
However, please note that my results also point to something else. There are factors that contribute greatly to
efficiency such as:
- electrolyte concentration, chemistry and temperature
- plate composition, spacing and surface preparation
- voltage waveform and frequency
- leakage current isolation between cells
- barometric pressure
Maximizing efficiency is now the game, not just brute force production.
Anyone try using blocking diodes right before the plates? Read that if you pulse though transformer into the cell though the diodes you can then begin to build up voltage in the cell until the brake down and volts turn to amps. I really think that meyers was doing this. I mean then you don't have to have the so called renocencse of water frequency. I think the idea is just to build up voltage and then keep it in there. I hope to try this on my next cell but first i need to read about transfomers and what kinda large diode to use.
Bubbler is taking shape despite the planer 1 degree off <dumb>.
Hope to test sat, at least with air. The best tube I found was indeed, aquarium parts. Polycarbonate won't like the KOH, but I'm at low concentrations with tighter plate spacing.
Still at it,
Turtle
Is foam a bad thing? I am testing out my cell with KOH and Water. I am no where near 20 percent probably closer to ten. My cell gaps are 1/4 so I am testing to see what it will do at a higher amp load. Goal is 25 to 30 amp. I am getting alot of action and alot of foam. I assume the Vac will take care of it. My container isn't clear so I am wondering does this happen when the hho can't get out of the water and just builds up?
Foam will always be there at higher outputs, build a bubble to separate it from anything you are running the gas into, a dry hho gas is what you want for an engine.
I don't know who first suggested to me to look at Walmart for a suitable electrolyte container but THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!! $6 today bought me a 8" tall clear acrylic jar with flip top lid and fully sealed gasket. Just wait until you see what comes next. For 12V brute force the plates are being temporarily rearranged +nnn-nnn+nnn-nnn+. 9 cells divided by 12-14v simply does not draw enough current at any electrolyte concentration.
@IH - If you haven't done so already, I'm ready for some electronics. If you have, please point me to the most relevant posts. Thanks.
My latest videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpQHIO2kw58 and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pjvxlUJU6w
ZFF
Hello, i humbly ask a few newbe questions and get ignored. I tried to explain about my computer problems, and am able to load pages at turtle speed ( hey turtle I would think you at least would be empathetic). so i found some info to read. still on the bottom end of the curve but moving forward. I found some obscure post mentioning pg.14 on this thread. I am teachable and willing to learn. I like to play hands on.
IH thanks for the tip on sign shops, scored a 4x8 of plexi-glass. I have some ss but 304, does it matter?
I will start the build of the cell. will you then be my teachers again?
BTW I have wholesale sources on radiators. I like trading. 316ss electronics etc.
@zff Those walmarttubs are the ticket aren't they, I was looking at yours and it was like looking into my own lab, heres a pic
For the more advanced guys, IH, Dingus, turtle, and zff
I need some peer review and discussion about some of my findings. I have attached two excel files with the data from some test runs. I will explain what they are reflecting.
The series cell test subject is an open cell design, there is a picture of it below. I know that an open cell design is not eff. and has voltage leaks but I did this as a baseline test subject for a worst eff. model to base improvements on. How do we know if we are getting better if there is nothing to compare it to, right.
The tests were not significant and went pretty much as expected. I am using a 0-14v 30a variable dc power supply. General trends of note were, as voltage was increased amperage increased directly in proportion. As voltage increased over 8v temp would increase. From the data I am able to see that the amount of (ml per minute/watts) decreased as volts/amps went up. In other words it took more power per ML of hho as the voltage was raised, yes the overall production was higher but the eff. suffered. The best eff. was at 4v with 2.7 (ml per min)/watts, worst was 12.81 volts. All of this I was expecting to see, just as in moving a mass the faster you go the more power it takes 5 to 10 miles per hour takes less energy than 60 to 65 mph. I also seen the capacitance characteristic of the HHO cells, this cell will not produce any gas below 1.6v and will tend to stay at that voltage from its capacitance, it leaks down much slower from 1.6v to 0 than anything above 1.6v down to 1.6v. So having the data I wanted from this cell I built the parallel cell that you can see in the tub in the pics below.
I built the parallel cell with the same number and same size plates as the series cell, I used the same solution as I did with the series cell, I did this to have a completely equal comparison test. BTW the spacing is the same also.
Here is where everything I know about electricity gets turned on its head. And I have not seen any other test cell do this, from arrons to all the other tinkers out there, not one cell I have seen has the characteristics of the parallel cell I slapped together, even though I did nothing I haven't seen 100 other people do.
With the cell connected I increase voltage from 0v up to about where 12v should be, I expected this cell to draw much more current than the series given that there is a lot more + and - surface area in close proximity. BUT as the voltage increased from 0v it stopped at 2.42v no matter how high I turned the knob up. In other words with the cell disconnected the supply would read 14v, but with the cell connected it would only read 2.42v. And to make it more upside down, the amperage only increased as the voltage was turned up to 2.42v after that the amperage stopped increasing also, it sat staginant at 7.92a.
The cell shunts itself at 2.42v and 7.92a and will not increase beyond that point, the water temp does not increase either, sits at 80.4 degree F, the power supply does not get hot, as if it was under a huge load and caused the voltage to drop. I am at a loss for an explanation, and let me tell you that does not happen to me very often, if ever.
Another note worth aspect of this cell is that its eff. over the series cell is amazing. It is running at 4.3 (ml per minute)/watt. which is what ZFF just achieved in his new double series cell.
Give me a hand with this one guys, I wish I had a camera to run the test for you, but I don't.
What is causing this cell to lock itself into this voltage/amperage, why will neither, actually nothing change beyond this point.
Another point of interest, it seems if this cell is pulsed on-off but using the cell capacitance to keep the voltage above 1.6v (turn on and off about 1 sec on, 1 sec off) it still produces the same amount of HHO.
Another point of interest of the parallel cell, it does not produce the small bubbles that fog up the water, it produces 1/16" bubbles that leave the water clear. The bubbles are produced from between the plates not on the edges at all. The series cell fogs the water. The parallel cell also does not foam at the top, it gets some bubbles but not the highly dense foam we are all used to seeing.
It was me that suggested the walmart cereal boxes to hold 10 6x3 stainless steel plates. these can be operated in series maybe 70 plates (7 boxes) on 110 power = 1.4 volts about...each plate. This idea was not mine. It came from reading oupower.com projects. Seems a simple way to do it.....lots of water over the plates so they can run along time.
@Robb - Thanks. That's what I was trying to remember. Then I went there and found these clear acrylic flip top jars. Those cereal boxes of yours do look pretty slick.
@d3 - Yeah, those tubs are sweet. I used a drill bit as a mill to remove the inside plate under the lid. Came out very clean. It was complete coincidence that my newest cell was very close to the right height for this container. Bolted through the lid it hangs less than 1/16" off the bottom. I may go and get a 2nd one and set it up with flexible wires like yours for temporary tests.
Looked at your data. First, leakage isolation is important only in the series cell design. In a parallel cell there's little or no benefit.
Second, I'd put money on your variable supply going into over current protection at 2.42v. Try that same parallel cell with a standard car battery (lots of CCA) and stand back. You'd better put a circuit breaker on the supply wires.
As you can see, the direction I'm headed in is fewer neutral plates too. Right now each cell partition has 3n. My gut tells me 1 or 2 might turn out to be optimum for 12-14v applications. I too will be plotting some data soon showing the relations of V/I, watts/production, temp, etc in search of that sweet spot for various cell configurations.
ZFF
I will give the car battery a go, but I shorted the supply to see its characteristics when shorted, it amp spikes and then blows fuses, (fuses are the protection, no ic control) the cell doesn't do that.
Here is another picture. No neutral plates or isolation required. Over 1.5 volts per plate wastes electricity in form of heat. Just make more plates for more gas, not more volts.
it seems that the powersupply has a shunt system in it, something I was 1 unaware other and 2 not projecting as a cuase because the amperage it is shunting at is only 7.92a, nowhere near the 30a max. most of my supplies will overcurrent closer to their max output. This one doesn't.
This is my first post on electrolysis @ OU.
I am still reading all of this thread. Been following along for awhile. Greatest collection of info that i've found. Nice work to all!
@d3 Thanks for the output measurements. I also feel that benchmarks are critical.
@IH it appears that the S-cell is not submersible due to voltage leak over the top of neutral cells. I see others following this cell type and still all are open to air on top. Plastic plates in the same notch above the SS plates should seal voltage leaks over the plates while allowing bubbles to rise. This would allow the cell to be submerged. Perhaps this is not the issue and i am missing something.
I have many ??s to many for all at once. Lets start with this- Who has the most efficient cell/ outputs? It appears to be the S-cell using higher voltage? (My definition high voltage = above 12v) It seems that pulsing circuits allow this by pumping up the voltage across the capacitor plates. A transformer also can step up the voltage. Perhaps using both is best?
I do not have a pulsing circuit working yet. need help, this seems to be stalling my progress. Has anyone had success with the ST SG3525A chip? (NTE's ECG1721 has same pin outs) I have recently purchased two 555 in order to do the dave lawton circuit, because it is tried and proven. I believe that the 1721 would use less parts though if i coould get it to work. Building cuircuits is certainly not my specialty- lol.
Much to say on container design....
Cheers to all that try- and keep trying!
Russell
Here's that bubbler I been hackin' away at- ain't tested it jes yet, but the idea is to use the HHO and recirc exhaust gas as an airlift (ala aquarium undergravel filter) to circulate the electrolyte thru the system, maintaining temp and concentration in same.
Gasses in bottom left, out top, liquid in with HHO, out top right.
Turtle
@ D3;
"Here is where everything I know about electricity gets turned on its head. And I have not seen any other test cell do this, from arrons to all the other tinkers out there, not one cell I have seen has the characteristics of the parallel cell I slapped together, even though I did nothing I haven't seen 100 other people do.
With the cell connected I increase voltage from 0v up to about where 12v should be, I expected this cell to draw much more current than the series given that there is a lot more + and - surface area in close proximity. BUT as the voltage increased from 0v it stopped at 2.42v no matter how high I turned the knob up. In other words with the cell disconnected the supply would read 14v, but with the cell connected it would only read 2.42v. And to make it more upside down, the amperage only increased as the voltage was turned up to 2.42v after that the amperage stopped increasing also, it sat staginant at 7.92a. "
Yup, I had the same thing with the Variac thru a bridge, but on a smaller 8 plate parallel cell. Cain't explain it, but, yes, jes like ZFF, hook the bank of gel cells and wet cells to it (adds to 96 volts <grin>) and watch out, Nellie!
So I be guessin' the Variac ain't got what it takes fer the job.
Turtle
Well after testing the heck out of the parallel cell it seems so that that the 17 plate cell that I tested first is the most efficient as far as ml per consumed watt, at 4.38 (ml/min)/watt. Strange thing that it shunted at the most efficient point.
Great looking Bubbler Turtle, hope everything works like you want. I?m in the process of enclosing my cell and I was wondering about the electrolyte mainly KOH reacting to types of metals. Do all the heat exchangers have to be stainless or can copper withstand KOH? I wanted to run a stainless coil in my water reservoir and use a heat exchanger for the water reservoir to pull the heat off the cell. If anyone has a better idea how to plumb this type of cell to keep it cool please let me know.
@reddb49;
KOH is easier on copper than NaOH would be, but I'd use at least 304 grade stainless for the heat transfer component of yer circulator, and teflon or vinyl tubing fer the rest.
I put a few peices of all typs of plastic I be a-usin' into soak with some 1 normal KOH in D I water; at that lame mix, little or no effect is seen. Gonna compare it to control blanks under the 'scope, but that pretty much jives with my spacing premise;
Simply stated, keep the plates close enough together so's y'all don't need too much KOH, but far enough parted so's the gas can get gone without slowin' the deal down.
I'm a-thinkin' 1/16" is pert near wide right now... ZFF gots lots of numbers on this, though.
Turtle
HI IH,
ANYTHING ON THE GEET UNIT ?
DALE
Howdy, Dale2000;
Here's an intro video on GEET if that'll git ye started
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8776695347183920693&q=Paul+Pantone&total=34&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
Turtle
Hello Turtle,
I was hopingto get the high voltage HHO and the geet unit working togetter.
I was think the two of they will go a lone way , like 100MPG or so.
Dale
Brace yerself fer a long journey, Dale... but it's worth it.
I'd try one thing at a time (turtle, you hypocrite- yer into everything now...)
<smirk>
Turtle
Thank you Turtle,
I have a GEET unit working on a small 5 hp and was looking to go to HHo with it.
Would you care to share the details of the geet unit? Mebbe this ain't the thread fer it, but I'm assured many would be profoundly motivated by yer success.
I know I would. Gots a whole mess of engines jes a-waitin' fer that remarkable transmootation!
Turtle
Hi Keith,
Teslatech.com has the free plans which will allow you to convert a small engine to the GEET system, you can get them here: http://www.teslatech.info/ttstore/articles/geet/geet.htm
Otherwise, you can pay for the single conversion auto plans as I have just done. They cost a lot ($250), but considering Paul Pantone's current predicament, I considered it a worthy investment.
Hi Turtle,
I was looking at The net and saw some thing about Paul Pantone, look him up an ended up at Tesla Tech Resource Center Online. There was the plans to download.Ã, One week end and the parts I had around. The thing worked the 1st time out I never had that before. Now I think HHO and the GEET Working for more power HMMM.
Dale
Thanks all;
Turtle's brain going into overload.
Back to the basking lamp to metabolise...
Turtle
Turtle:
Those green turtles are your pets? LOL.
It appears the Geet system is the same at BINGO fuels on JNL labs. Do you agree? Great discoveries.
Yup- gots 'em in a 100 gal stock tank, bio and UV filter and basking lamps fer all of 'em. I know of what I speak regarding basking...
Turtle
Hey, where'd you all GO??? did this thread die???
SOME INTERESTED RECEIVED MAILS ....
Hi all, I found this in the bulk folder, wonder why
hm?
This is from ashtweth:
--- ashtweth_nihilistic <ashtweth@gmail.com> wrote:
> To: radianth2o@yahoogroups.com
> From: "ashtweth_nihilistic" <ashtweth@gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 01:29:00 -0000
> Subject: [radianth2o] Scare Tactics used to try and
> discourage a Meyers replicaiton
>
> Please post this in as many forums publicly as
> possible do you part to
> protect yourselfs.
>
> It Seems the spooks are trying to scare Ravi again,
>
> Quote from an email last night
>
> "I have just received a call about 5 mins ago on my
> land line asking
> me to stop posting on the forums and youtube. If I
> still do they said
> that someone will have to visit me personally to
> take care of it. I
> dont have a caller ID on the line. This person had a
> British accent.
>
>
> Please try and save all the posting till now on I
> dont know if I can
> post anymore...but i'll try keep in touch.-end
>
> Do not be afraid to replicate Ravi's and Lawtons
> results and post your
> results, to be afraid is exactly what they want,
> Bill Williams took a
> shot gun to them, they have not been back, the more
> we replicate
> Ravi's and Lawtons findings the more the meek will
> by natural
> selection be quelled.
>
> I will be reporting this incident to the mainstream
> news, and
> disclosing it with our replication results which are
> under way ATM.
>
> I pity the spooks if they come after us, i have
> arranged 20 people to
> be waiting for them, I know they are reading this,
> and wanted to set
> a trap, i hope they think im joking and just come
> after us.
>
> I look forward to seeing you guys soon.
>
> Ravi and any one experiencing this is to file a
> complaint with the
> local police so that it is on record and give them
> all details. Send
> us (panacea-bocaf.org) the address of the police
> station and the name
> of the officer and the time he logged the report.
>
> If there is any one in India we know and trust also
> get them to
> contact US first. The other thing is to get Ravi the
> find out the
> names of the people who visited him from the Tax
> Office and the
> positions they hold. Give the names to us and the
> name of the person
> in charge.
> http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/EngineerinIndia.htm
>
> We have many volunteers in our Non profit org and
> even a volunteer
> private investigator.
>
> The good news is it works if they are trying to
> spook Ravi.
> So start replicating.
>
> regards
> ashtweth
>
----------------------------------------------------
other infos now:
Stan Meyers bifilar choke design - taking a look at it with references:
http://www.youtube.com/v/ozpRNpM6FqM
tell ravi to hang in there, and work even harder. tape records and cameras are good to.
Damn!
Everytime someone gets real close.......they show it's the real deal ;-)
Like Bill Williams , idling an engine with ignition timing advanced 70degrees...impossible
with gasoline i think.
Question; i'm about to order some stainless again , what type do you recommend
316L , 304 or 316Ti ??
I heard someone had the best results with the 316Ti , is this still true?
Thanks!!!
quote
Like Bill Williams , idling an engine with ignition timing advanced 70degrees...impossible
with gasoline i think.
Maybe "GOT STEAM"
I would go 316l and 316ti alternating
@maxc;
possible , but still weird...
@d3adp00l;
lol , i will just order both types and find out !
I'll let you know what worked for me.
Thanks
Still working on it...
Turtle
Still working on mine also. Can goop be used to seal up a box that is made out of HDPE and is bolted around the box on approx. 1 inch centers? Will seal the top with a gasket. Where did all these sponsored links come from? I am showing one everyother post.
Links= someone pays the freight. Be thankful we have a forum.
I ain't sure goop will adhere to HDPE without mechanical attachment. It should serve well as a gasket.
Turtle
I know it sounds funny, but run it with one, and then run it alternating, see if these a difference. Who knows:)
Quote from: d3adp00l on September 03, 2007, 01:00:31 AM
I know it sounds funny, but run it with one, and then run it alternating, see if these a difference. Who knows:)
You're right though...
Dissimilar metals form a galvanic cell when shorted creating potential, but amperage is based on the speed of chemical reaction. Since both metals are resistant to oxidation you wouldn't creat much potential and zero amperage, but it sounds like an interesting idea. Unless you use AC impulses, you'll electroplate the electrodes and ruin the plates. HV DC is no good unless you have the right metal and use the same metal for both electrodes.
Good luck on your experiments fellas,
~Dingus Mungus
Ahh yes dingus, but I don't need the amperage from a simple galvanic battery, just the potential, amperage can come from somewhere else.
Quote from: d3adp00l on September 03, 2007, 01:54:05 AM
Ahh yes dingus, but I don't need the amperage from a simple galvanic battery, just the potential, amperage can come from somewhere else.
I would agree... That does sound like a very interesting HV method. Google "dry pile" for more information on creating a "free" HV electrostatic bias. Perhaps two phases, such as charging the plates with the HV potential to create pre-ionic clouds arround the electrodes, then disconnecting the HV bias and hit the plates with a high current pulse to do the chemical work. Again though the current input for dissimular metals needs to alternating to prevent electroplating unless the voltage is low enough to not facture the metalic lattice. Sounds like a way neat idea to persue! If I only knew more about creating driving circuits I would be all over this idea.
Good luck,
~Dingus Mungus
Here is an interesting article on low voltage electrolysis
http://guns.connect.fi/innoplaza/energy/story/Kanarev/electrolysis/index.html
collaborates with all of my efficiency data, and output per watt data. Now is just a matter of upping the standing potential and the pulsing the cell to stay between 2.4v and 1.8v. The standing voltage helps the capacitance action of the cell to hold longer, and the 2.4 to 1.8v region is where the gas output per watt is the most efficient. Pulse it up to 2.4v and then let it coast down to 1.8, then pulse it back up to 2.4v the frequency on this setup will be slow about 1hz, but will vary from cell to cell, some kind of sensor to turn on the cell at 1.8v and turn off the cell at 2.4v would be better than a frequency drive, then the cell will auto adjust to different electrolyte and cell characteristics. Anyone who knows how to make that kind of control circuit that can turn on a relay, I would ask that you post a diagram and help us out, please.
Hello! Just the newest of the Noobs here. I have been reading this ultra cool thread for 2 days and thanks to ZFF he has guided me to where I need to start. Muchos Gras ZFF! I'm astounded at the vast knowledge and details that you have presented here. So I'm wishing to build a simple "brute Cell" and have a question about the SS plates. I have 20 6x6x .020 L605 plates there are not magnetic. Just wondering if these are suitable for me first cell. I also have a few 2x6x.125 L605 perferrated(.250) plates that as I gain knowledge I might be able to use them or I could send them to one of the Gurus for experimentation. Also just a thought anyone ever use pure graphite for plates?
Anyways I want to thank You for the vast knowledge and your willingness to share your genius! I look forward to learning from everyone here and i hope to one day give something back:)
Again, Thank you very much
Bob:)
has anyone tried using permanent magnets with their cells, an interesting video here
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-402416601018668534
Quote from: Gothic on October 04, 2007, 09:33:48 PM
has anyone tried using permanent magnets with their cells, an interesting video here
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-402416601018668534
Interesting vortex action!
This is a strange high voltage effect
http://www.recipe4dvd.com/content/view/14365/195/
wonder if it means anything?
Hello Darchorse,
sometime ago in this forum some pictures were shown by member Ros-Co :
here is a subdirectory of his website which is not accessible from his main-entry :
http://www.hvlabs.hu/zpe/huzaseffekt/ (http://www.hvlabs.hu/zpe/huzaseffekt/)
Have a look especially here :
http://www.hvlabs.hu/zpe/huzaseffekt/IMG_3357k.jpg (http://www.hvlabs.hu/zpe/huzaseffekt/IMG_3357k.jpg)
He discovered his way back in 2006
Regards
Kator
The injector assembly is design variable and is retrofitable to fossil fuel injector ports conventionally used in jet/rocket engines, grain dryers, blast furnaces, heating systems, internal combustion engines and the like.
In alternate applications, laser primed ionized liquid oxygen and laser primed liquid hydrogen stored in separate fuel tanks can be used in place of the fuel mixture, or liquefied ambient air gases alone with water can be substituted as a fuel source.Ã,Â
Quotes from Stanley Myers Canadian patent# 2,067,735.
It seems, you may be producing more hydrogen than you actually need.Ã, Read "or liquefied ambient air gases alone with water can be substituted as a fuel source."
Hydroxy with water injection may suffice it seems, slowing the burn with water injection is necessary.Ã, No need to fill the entire displacement of the engine with hydroxy.Ã, It might cause a difficult to control, mechanically destructive explosion.Ã,Â
Perhaps a newbie could try this with a cell just to see if he is producing enough hydrogen. Maybe start with 1 or 2% hydroxy by displacement volume injecting water mist the entire intake stroke.
yoyo
Quote from: IronHead on April 04, 2007, 11:43:11 AM
My video camera has lost its sound some time back. So I will be buying a new cam for the very important sound parts of the new video I am shooting, the HHO burn and implosive force. This must be seen as well as heard. Along with verbal information.
There are 2 videos being done .The first (1 hour long) for those that are building this cell and you know who you are. The second (20 min long) for the on lookers and nay sayers.
This includes the running of a 7500watt generator under load and powering the cell.
IronHead
Hi, I am new to the ou forum and this thread has me captivated. Kool stuff here!
I ordered some of the basics to get started building this starter cell as per IH's specs.
@IronHead
Did you ever manage to post these videos yet?
Is it too late to start building my own cell? I'm going to be so far behind...oh well, should be fun.
Looks like this thread has stalled...
I have my stainless and acrylic, just have to get moving on the rest.
Is there anyone out there?
hey IH, Keith, ZFF all what happened. Ijust followed this thread to completion and everyone dissapeared. All i have seen is brute force hydrolysis and very little on circuit anaysis and effect(pulsed dc). Did you guys abandon this for somthing else or will there be more to come?
I have worked really hard to educate myself on this thread and have read and absorbed every post and many many hours of data compilation and video watching before adding my two cents. I was really fired up about building the s cell and playing around with hf dc. and will be doing some stuff on my own.
To ZFF awsome university quality measurements and documentation. reminds me of my research days at university. I hope I can honor your hard work by continuing on a similar path and documenting as well as you have.
Now that the cell construction is well documented and reproduced Im ready for the next steps because my intuition is leadibg me toward frequecies above 44 khz without electrolyte or greatly reduced.
To IH which way to I go to learn more on shaking/vibration of H2O to HHO. please lead me in the right direction.
Have you built anything yet, if so can you show some pics and data?
@ IH Thank you for responding so quickly. I have built several strait two plate with no neutral plate and no enclosure cells out of al, galv, stainless but magnetic switch plate covers. with very little if any observable results. that was before i got into researching and reading this thread and on this site. all were just tinkering to see what would happen and no documentation. but after reading watching and learning I am ready to get started with a planned attack, and documenting as I go. I am gathering supplies as we speak. it will take a few days to gather and build the cell.
I do have some plans on autocad that I've been working on for about a week that i would love to run by You for criticism. They incorporate the s cell design but only have 3 neutrals. plate shape will resemble finger joints with interlaced plates made of plates running perpendicular to the way your cell plates run. The pos plates fingered on the inside only(to interlace with its closet neutral) for very close plate spacing and large surface area . also the center neg has 2X surface area as combined pos plate s. a. I hope you can visualize what i want to do until I can post a pic. and all criticism and guidance will be gladly accepted. The Idea is to get very close spacing <.060" from one plate to the next.
@ KT do you still have access to your metal guy and if so, would you be willing to sell me a set of plates? I live in rural Oklahoma and have no metal shops within 150 miles so i would be interested in paying you to help me out.
Ive been an amateur electronics builder for 24 years and have a pretty fair understanding of digital and analog electronics so hopefully will soon be designing and building a wide freq. range, multi freq. oscillator/ amp to provide freq-V-I signal for researching how this cell will respond and its sweet spots and the effects of multiple signals similar to the tpu replication stuff. got a bunch of stuff on order from hosfelt and digikey. and a new/used scope in transit now.
thanks for still being around. Its 655 am here and been up all night finishing up reading this thread. Gonna crash for a couple of hours the head to the post office to see if anything has come in and will post back when I can think a little clearer.
I'm glad this thread is not dead and the guru has not been eliminated by the MIB
the topic is very much alive. and advanceing in some unique ways, ;)
Thanks Brother Moab
To everyone here,
We are all just rotating around different forums as a sort of team to help others gain interest in the basics of this technology. Those that are far beyond the basics or are getting closer to the higher levels, we try to invite into our little team and spread the knowledge based on its different levels of understanding.
Builders Team Network
IronHead
Hi everyone,
just got back from the post office(74 mile round trip). Bummed out, no goodies. Im anxious to get my new oscope and goody bags of parts.
Here is a cad pic of my cell design. any input would be appreciated: the negative input is located on one side at the bottom and the positives are at the top on the other side. reminiscent of the joe cell with neg at bottom.
Im wondering if I can construct this cell from aluminum as I will not be using caustic electrolyte. I know that it will quickly oxidise but not sure about how rapidly it will degrade using my well water(240 ft artesian <35 ppm TDS). to charge it as a joe cell as recomended by Ironhead. what about lead? as both of these non ferrous(nonmagnetic) metals form a protective layer of oxide very rapidly.
Quote from: keithturtle on May 21, 2007, 02:51:30 AM
Mebbe some arab took 'im serious when he said "Y'all got my money yet?"
Here's my containment tub and a brute force built to IH's specs:
(//)
Keith
That is truly awesome, bro.
What I really like about it is that it looks like off-the-shelf components put together with exceptionally fine workmanship.. ;D
How do you tell between parahydrogen and orthohydrogen, is just the size of the bubbles coming out of the cell? I'm well on my way to making my first cell in the next few weeks!
@BuddahRob That look like a really neat Cell design to build up . Hope you will post it.
@Super God Burn time ,Para burns much slower where Ortho is instant explosion on implosion depending on the Hydrogen Oxygen mix
Hello IronHead,
Please tell me how much gas (HHO concept) your making per minute?
- Schpankme
On which system ?
" You like to renegotiate as we go along, ok! " - My Cousin Vinny
Hello IronHead,
Maybe since you have so many different versions you might list them via Spreadsheet showing Gas production per minute, compare with Volt/Amps required.
Thank you,
- Schpankme
The Cell you see in this thread was a Motivator to get people into the technology . I moved to a private forum with Massive amounts of data on all the great research being done there in. This thread here is just about dead and very old news. Sorry I have no data of this type to post to this particular forum at this time.
I will tell you that this tiny basic Cell in this thread will produce 2+ liters a minute
So where do we go for the new news? Haha I'm so behind.
For more information and further study here on OU. I would direct you to another thread by ZeroFossilFuel
Do a search on this name in the forum search engine.
ZFF has picked up where we left off with some very good research and new ideas based on this Cell technology.
Thank you
IronHead
IronHead,
Whats your thoughts on Steam -->> to HHO conversion ?
- Schpankme
I think it is a very good idea or just inject steam right into a plasma field and bang it goes.Maybe
IronHead, I have heard of using steam and plasma but I came across this next link that explains how to build a injector using Water Decomposition by AC Electrolysis
http://www.rexresearch.com/puharich/1puhar.htm
It has been said that sound frequencies are what is actually splitting the hydrogen from the water and pulsing the frequency is said to be the key.
This next video explains it better then I can and the design he is talking about is shown in the link above.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pcOJpPmfCc&feature=related
This is really starting to get interesting. I have plenty of diesel injectors and I believe I may have to check into this a bit more.
I hope this helps if not already known. I am new so I am not sure of everything you all have already figured out so please bear with me if I am behind on this subject and keep posting things that have already been discussed. I am only here to try and help as well as to help change things for the better for my children and their future.
Hey Hydrogen heads. Thanks for all the info I have been absorbing in this and some other forums. I got thru page 20 tonight on this one and plan on building another cell soon. Built one with pvc and stainless bolts that really did well if inefficient like most cells. Wish i was in there back in the spring when Iron Head started the basic cell on page 14 but at least I will keep learning. I have some ideas but dont know shiat about anything.
Hope to try to keep up once i catch up.
Thanks again IRonHead for your patience with some of us blonds and critics.
Peace
Joe
Hey All,
Could one of you old timers look this pdf over.Ã, It's a coiled type cell.Ã, I'm getting close to the time for building and would like to possibly go this way.Ã, Can you see some negative things with this design?
Thanks
Alex
The spiral design was one of the first i did sometime ago , it worked well .
But you do not want to separate the Hydrogen and Oxygen shown in the pdf .
So skip the whole electromagnetic coil thing on the bubbler.
If one were to build such a cell, would you still need to seal it? It would seem pretty difficult to do with the spiraly one.
Plate Cells work better ether series +nnn-nnn+ or parallel +-+-+-+ or combination there of as the studies have shown.
Parallel are more efficient at lower voltage. Also Plate Cells are much easier to build and reconfigure as needed.
Doesn't Hansvonlieven have a system that hydrolisis water by using sound waves? I have been involved in an electrochemical process of clarifying water for quite some time. Water with large amounts of suspended solids needs clarification before passing on down the line to membrane technologies for further purifying and dissolved solids removal. The unit I employed passed wastewater from an industrial process through a stack of aluminum plates that had dc current passing through them like a battery charging. It used two emitter plates on either end of the stack that were powered by a 230vdc supply. The voltage divided between the aluminum plates (48 of em) and caused aluminum ions in the presence of dc current to cause coagulation of the suspended solids in the water. It also produced small amounts of hydrogen gas and alot of foam. The flocculated waste water would then have to be degassed by vacuum and the resultant floc would then settle in a sedimentation pool. It would take water that looked like chocolate milk and make it crystal clear. The problem with the cell was that the plates would form aluminum oxide on them and the active plate area would diminish and halt the electro-chemical process. I am presently designing a machine that uses highpressure wastewater feed and a small dc fed non-sacraficial electrode to bore through aluminum blocks to avoid aluminum oxide formation on the sacraficial aluminum anode and allow for aluminum ions to mix with the wastewater which is necessary for the coagulation process.
I mention this here because the hydrolisis of water using the conventional plate technology will suffer from the same thing the water purifier did. The water used in the process has to be very pure or it will plug the anode and cathode. Hansvonlieven's technology grows from his studies of Kneely? I hope I have the names right. It looks to me like it would work no matter how shitty the water is. I am very interested in this because I have an idea about anchored partially submerged windgenerator stations that would hydrolize seawater, compress and store liquid hydrogen, and would only require a structure that is approximately 15-20' tall and collect 1000 of hp energy from a 20knot wind. The state of the art propeller driven wind farms have to have huge propeller diameters which makes them hard to build, ugly and hard to site. The devices I have in mind, could be anchored offshore in naturally windy places, requiring no foundation to be built or maintained. Just tow them where you want them and put down an anchor. Come back when they are filled-up with thousands of gallons of liquified hydrogen and maybe scrape of a little seaweed from the deck and water uptake screens. Shitload easier then maintaining a backspinning gearbox and induction generator 200 feet up some shakey windmill tower.
The sucess of this device all hinges on the ability of the hydrolizer to tolerate the impurities found in seawater. Hydrogen is the sludge energy replacement of the future. The Japaneese (wizards at car manufacturing )already have an engine that runs on Hydrogen in production. I bet you they have been working on Hydrogen fuel production as well.. Meanwhile US car manufacturers keep on adding options to their vehicles like umpteen overhead valves, or 4 or 5 dvd players per vehicle, integrated cell phones, heated seats etc., to bolster "showroom appeal". The gasoline powered internal combustion engine has run it's course boys. Time to think outside the showroom box. The Japaneese competition sure as hell has.
I have view some of these threads over my cell phone recently and just wanted to add a lil bit of input to the scene and maybe get a bit out. I am a novice to this but have succeeded in running a 1992 Saturn off of an hho gen (cell) of my own crude construction at one time. I merely connected the hho out to the fuel rail which worked perfectly till boil over. 3-4 mins. insignificant to most I am sure. but A lil thrill for me. After all I have only been at this six months with limited net access.
Back on topic.
I have found that it does not necessarily require high voltage nor amperage to generate hho, but like Meyers philosophy the right frequency range. I have applied merely 12volts and .01 amps and generated rather significants amounts of hho using a basic ne555circuit and ss switch plate covers.(With or with electrolyte added.) however not enough to run my vehicle yet. My test vehicle is now my 4.0 liter 89 Jeep Cherokee which requires a lil more fuel than the other so I am back to the drawing board. I will note that based on my calculations, rudimentary as they may be, I require approximately a 3liter hho production (which is over estimating) per minute to successfully run it full time with water alone. with lil modifications to the vehicles current ecu or components. namely heated O2sen ,map and tps circuits... gate/freq/pw etc...
ordinary gasoline has been mileage increased with O2sen simulator. and I am not light on the feet. increased 4-5 mpg there. working on supplementary hho but trying to figure optimal location for fuel input. other than b4 carb. perhaps secondary fuel rail.
NE SUGGESTIONS?
Try the intake manifold through a bubbler. Can you post a video of your hho production, looks very promising!
@IH
Thank you for your comments on the coil style generator.
I feel this to be easy to make looking at McMaster Carr Part Number: 9548K18
$38.59 Each
Material Type
Type 316 Stainless Steel
Type
Shim Stock
Shim Type
Shim Stock Rolls
Material
Stainless Steel
Thickness
.020"
Thickness Tolerance
Ã,±.0005"
Width x Length
6" x 50"
Length Tolerance
Ã,±1"
Width Tolerance
Ã,±.005"
Specifications Met
Not Rated
I have been a machinist for more than 30 years. I own a small machine shop since 1992. I have worked with SST shim stock extensively. These shims come in coils already. very easy to slip into round container. I am looking at plastic mesh for a separator with perhaps 1/2 inch openings. All this can be wrapped together (rolled by hand). I will try .02 thick and see how it goes, 6" X 50" each negative and positive makes for a tremendous amount of surface area. The pressure may help in production maybe? http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200213/000020021302A0509247.php
Alex
What pressure ? HHO gas pressure goes up then production goes down.
3 liters a minute wont run 1 cylinder on your 6 cylinder 4.0 engine with water as the only fuel source.
Also I would like to see a Cell that extracts significant? amounts of HHO using 12 volts 0.01amperes
that boils over in 3 to 4 minutes without the heat coming from high current. How?
You really need to show use some videos and diagrams with pictures and such if you want help on this Cell you have built. Btw Stan Meyer was using high amperage ,just not directly. The Cell he built was a
capacitor that would go into avalanche.
Quote from: WHITERICAN74 on December 20, 2007, 04:05:17 PM
I have view some of these threads over my cell phone recently and just wanted to add a lil bit of input to the scene and maybe get a bit out. I am a novice to this but have succeeded in running a 1992 Saturn off of an hho gen (cell) of my own crude construction at one time. I merely connected the hho out to the fuel rail which worked perfectly till boil over. 3-4 mins. insignificant to most I am sure. but A lil thrill for me. After all I have only been at this six months with limited net access.
Back on topic.
I have found that it does not necessarily require high voltage nor amperage to generate hho, but like Meyers philosophy the right frequency range. I have applied merely 12volts and .01 amps and generated rather significants amounts of hho using a basic ne555circuit and ss switch plate covers.(With or with electrolyte added.) however not enough to run my vehicle yet. My test vehicle is now my 4.0 liter 89 Jeep Cherokee which requires a lil more fuel than the other so I am back to the drawing board. I will note that based on my calculations, rudimentary as they may be, I require approximately a 3liter hho production (which is over estimating) per minute to successfully run it full time with water alone. with lil modifications to the vehicles current ecu or components. namely heated O2sen ,map and tps circuits... gate/freq/pw etc...
ordinary gasoline has been mileage increased with O2sen simulator. and I am not light on the feet. increased 4-5 mpg there. working on supplementary hho but trying to figure optimal location for fuel input. other than b4 carb. perhaps secondary fuel rail.
NE SUGGESTIONS?
60 liters a minute sounds a little more reasonable.
@IronHead
Thank you for clearing that up. I was under that impression (pressure) may increase production. What you commented is making me rethink that design, as those coiled cells in that pdf you looked over are @ 30 p.s.i. The only advantage to pressure is the same reason that water will have a higher boiling point when pressurized. Noted as when you try to remove the cap from a hot radiator. I have heard results of lower gas production with heat which made the solution boil and release steam.
As you probably already know, ZFF did not have luck with vacuum increasing production in his cells.
Better to listen than repeat trials others have already done. Your suggestions, from experience, do not fall on deaf ears.
Thank you
Alex.
Well, I believe that ZFF experiment was a total successes as he is the only person to prove so far that higher output of HHO under vacuum is for the most part a myth or misconception. He has done a great thing as far as I am concerned.
@ IronHead
You are absolutely correct. ZFF has worked very hard and has amassed a great deal of knowledge which he is sharing with all of us. I was not disrespecting his research, sorry if it came off like that. I see that you are visiting again with us. Can you tell us one or two exciting things that you have uncovered as of late with HHO cells. You are after all, someone that everyone looks up to for correctness. I know I do. I am humbled.
Thank you
Alex
Hi all,
I new to forums. So I'll ask for pardens in advance. I want to build that test S-cell. But here is what I've done along with some observations and questions. I am hobbled by lack of a suitable ampmeter.
I have stacked 14-SSwallswitch platecovers arranged + - + - + - and applied 12, 24, & 36 volts in local tap water(the best). I then tried approx. 1/8 tsp of Sodium Carbonate in about 2L water. Very exciting. The cell would heatup and gas production would become very vigorous. I decided to see just how hot it would get. Used a digital thermometer. At 12v maintained 180'f for 30 mins with screaming production. I continue with 24v and the temp rose to 205'f and I soon pulled the plug to re-evaluate the cell container. Its promissing. Anyway I am very pleased with the results - I don't have to cool the cell using 12v with crazy production. Wish I knew the amps. Soon I will!
Stone
Question: is using for electrolyte, sodium carbonate (ph-up for the pool) harmful?
Any Ampmeter recomendation?
I will also build a series cell version of this wallplates cell that I learned from this forum - thanks IH.
Also like to commend ZZF.
Brewmasters and Scubadivers know about the actions of gas and liquids under pressure. The gas gets stored in the liquid until saturation(local). Changes in pressure causes gases to go in and out of solution - bad for beer and blood. I'm sure there are other factors but it seems to me that some hho would be stored in the electrolyte under pressure and released as the pressure dropped or the new saturation level is achieved. What ya think?
Stone
@Stonesthrow
Good point Stonesthrow, and welcome to the forum.
Your question of using Sodium Carbonate has been addressed in this forum before. I have read responses from IronHead that the preferred catalyst is KOH which is Lye.
Very interesting what you say about gases in liquid under pressure. This never occurred to me at the point of saturation. It makes sense to me what you said. Thinking that what you are saying is true, then perhaps gas production may stay at the same levels of production at atmospheric pressure, once the solution becomes saturated. Is that what you are proposing? This also must be happening at a reduced rate under 1 atmosphere of pressure. Actually it may explain why ZFF did not get the results he expected to get with the cell under vacuum. If this was the case the saturation point of the water under vacuum would be reduced to a certain amount directly related to the amount of vacuum which would release the gases sooner, but not increase the rate of production. Am I correct in that assumption?
This also is related to the reason why scientists years ago couldn't explain why the accumulation of CO2 in the atmosphere hadn't manifested itself earlier as they had predicted in their models. As they later discovered they did not put into their models the fact that the oceans absorbed the CO2 until their saturation point.
If one would take this further, assuming that this proposal is indeed fact. I remember ZFF trying the vacuum test after he demonstrated (with a vacuum gauge hooked up to the engine) how the engine in the car would produce less vacuum under acceleration. His explanation was that it would be at this point that the car would need more HHO. So if we look at the cell under pressure having stored a certain amount of HHO in the liquid, then at the moment of acceleration we could release the pressure, giving the motor a certain amount of stored HHO. Then of course the cell would need to pressurize again, causing a lag in production of usable HHO. It could be solved by having a second cell for cases like this.
ZFF, could you please give us your take on this?
@All
If anyone could validate this in their tests please let us know. Speculation is fine, but tests prove by results.
Thank you
Alex
Pressure puts/keeps gases in solution. Reduction of pressure causes gases to come out of solution. If the gas is in-solution it is unavailable right?
About engine vacuum. It is created by the thottle plates being in the closed position (engine running). Carburators need them to operate. I'm not sure we need them when using fuel injectors.
high engine vacuum is created by the throttle body or throttle plates being closed.
The solution is to "t" from the HHOcell to ports both infront and behind the throttle plates or throttlebody. Use 2 checkvalves to isolate the two ports from each other. What this does is balance the cell. No need for special purpose cells. The gas should arrive under all conditions with this configuration. Where the best spot is would be the next consideration.
I really joined this forum because I am interested in some practical hi voltage efficient HHO gas production that I can use as fuel supplement and fuel.
got to go eat
stone
Hi All,
I am thinking in terms of appliance; 900watt room heaters, water heaters, BarBQues. 110 rectified volts to the cell.
I have a 300v 25amp bridge rectifier. Could I connect it to the wall (15amp breaker) or should I use a isolation transformer? I'd get 110v120hzDC. My cell draws 28amps @36 volts 80'F. So might I expect to pull 86 amps uncontrolled? Probably need a current limiter of some kind.
Anyone see a problem here? Any guidance? I hate to stumble in the dark(pun intended).
ABS Plastic is rated to 180'f and is more robust than pcv and has a better track record. And is available. Anybody know what kind of plastic car radiator tanks are made out of these days?
Stone
@Stonesthrow
Wonderful projects you have in mind for your cell(s). I also have thought of converting my forced air natural gas heater in my home to HHO or straight H. That will take some looking into details later on as I have yet to build an experimental cell. I would like to do it right away but finances are holding me back at the moment. I'm sorry I couldn't suggest any solution to your electrical questions as I am not familiar with that. I'm more on the mechanical side, but I do own a few CNC machines. Would that count? lol
I am trying to familiarize myself with different circuits, components and the jargon. What I was wondering was in a burner system such as home heating or water heating what, (if anything), would need to be done with the burner? Does the HHO or H present a problem as it burns faster and hoter than natural gas? Would it cause any damage to the metal surfaces of these units?
I think you may have misunderstood my suggestion for HHO under pressure as it may relate to ZFF's tests.
Quote from: Stonesthrow on December 29, 2007, 09:45:03 PM
Pressure puts/keeps gases in solution. Reduction of pressure causes gases to come out of solution. If the gas is in-solution it is unavailable right?
Yes precisely my point. When the gas boost is needed, releasing the pressure would release the stored HHO at that point becoming available. You could expect a forced feeding effect depending on how quickly you allow the gas under pressure to escape the cell going into the intake. The acceleration time would need to be balanced with the amount of HHO available from say 30 psi and the cell size taken into account
Quote from: Stonesthrow on December 29, 2007, 09:45:03 PM
About engine vacuum. It is created by the throttle plates being in the closed position (engine running). Carburators need them to operate. I'm not sure we need them when using fuel injectors.
I don't understand how an engine with fuel injectors would not be creating the same vacuum at the intake. As far as my understanding there is no difference in the mechanics involved, except that the throttle plates are not needed when fuel injectors are used to deliver fuel. There were fuel injectors used in a throttle body configuration, which would inject mist into the intake with one injector as opposed to the design where you have one injector per cylinder. In the multiple injector design no throttle plate is used or needed as you say. The engine in the multiple injector configuration does not require vacuum to draw the fuel mixture into the cylinder, the amount of fuel is increased by the computer, therefore displacing air. The computor is mimicking, in a way, the effects of a throttle plate. This is done at the cylinder when both valves are closed and the cylinder is in the compression stroke. Both types, regardless, during intake strokes, create vacuum. Maybe not used in identical ways, but still vacuum.
Quotequote author=Stonesthrow link=topic=2057.msg66886#msg66886 date=1198982703]
No need for special purpose cells. The gas should arrive under all conditions with this configuration.
There was concern by ZFF that the engine would not be drawing the fuel (HHO) into the cylinder, in the absence of sufficient vacuum, to accommodate acceleration. The design I was mentioning would address that problem. I was just thinking out loud that's all.
OK now I see your point that vacuum in a fuel injected car would stay constant by not having a throttle plate to restrict air intake. True, to a certain extent. As the computer increases the "on" time of the injector, increasing the amount of fuel to the cylinder, you are then displacing air, causing the same end effect as reduced vacuum in a carburated engine. I suppose you could computorize the cell to get the same effect or pressurize the cell. What say you?
Thank you
Alex
Quote from: Super God on December 25, 2007, 10:14:26 AM
60 liters a minute sounds a little more reasonable.
naturally I was in error. however, marginally. 2 -3 per sec. is what i meant. given that h2 has a air/ fuel ratio of 33:1 up to 70-80:1. Depends on what one is trying to accomplish. My estimation was based on current fuel economy of my Jeep. 1 gallon of fuel per 22m / (every 20 minutes of standard hwy driving.) Darn jeep seems stuck between 21-23 miles per gallon hwy or city. Perhaps my math seems wrong still but hey, it happens. I will keep you inform as often as I can. and share details and results when possible. please just bear with me and my meanderings.
Hi all.
Thanks IH for your effort to share your knowledge! To bad this grate thread went dead it sure had some potential!
Anyway I am have built the S-cell to learn what I can. My progress is found here: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Snopy2005
Yes I still have some distance to go but I will get there! I yet to play with higher voltage and freq.
Do anyone have a good suggestion to dispose the brown deposits that seems to come back after every rinse of water and plates?
Yes, it ts 316L non magnetic plates....
Oh, this is my first post... took me some weeks to get through this thread.....
Jon
Quote from: joemumu on December 27, 2007, 09:34:43 AM
@ IronHead
You are absolutely correct. ZFF has worked very hard and has amassed a great deal of knowledge which he is sharing with all of us. I was not disrespecting his research, sorry if it came off like that. I see that you are visiting again with us. Can you tell us one or two exciting things that you have uncovered as of late with HHO cells. You are after all, someone that everyone looks up to for correctness. I know I do. I am humbled.
Thank you
Alex
I have found some videos on youtube :D :D :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qj-PHwb-g0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq_VGwkZyYI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tH13Vfv-Lc
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=CarbideTip <<< you can find more videos here.
I think that the cell under vacuum has a much grater production even if ZFF didn't had great results with his vacuum tests.
I might be wrong but, hey.. I am only trying to help. If you have seen these videos already I didn't knew..sorry.
I'm really curios of what you think of these results. :D :P
Ionutz.
Hey Snoopy
Get your electrolyte just above the Cell stack 1/8" to 1/4" no higher or lower.
And please use a container that is closer matching to the Cell.
You have alot of gas area in the container you have now , Very dangerous!
Also try some kind of a container where the lid can pop off . You do not want
to build alot of pressure in there if it ignites.
Good job on the S-Cell build man
IronHead
@Ionutz
I did have a chance to communicate with ZFF on the details he discussed about his vacuum tests and a little about his involvement with the cell under pressure. He mentioned that with the cell under pressure, the gas bubbles were smaller. I would imagine this was compared to the bubble size he was seeing in a normal cell.
That caught my attention, (this is my take on our discussion), because cells under pressure will pressurize the gases, making them seem smaller until they are released into 1 atmosphere of pressure.
ZFF has been very thorough in keeping his data. He is a champion. He stated, as can be seen in the video, that there was no gain in gas production with his cell under vacuum. The vacuum that the cell was under was not very great but, it was enough to be conclusive on the gas production question.
As with the cell under pressure, where gases show up as smaller bubbles, the reverse is true under vacuum. It would be an educated guess that under much greater vacuum the gas bubbles would appear to be larger as the negative pressure would pull the skin of the bubble outward as it exited the electrolyte. Appearances can be deceiving. The gas under greater vacuum may even be ejected from water sooner, but in the end when released out of vacuum would return to normal size.
Thanks to his tests we all have a better understanding of what is taking place in the cells. IMO you will not get better production under vacuum or pressure.
Alex
@joemumu
You are very correct in your affirmations, but I also wanted to point out that when the cell is under vacuum the amperage is lower meaning that you don't need to apply the same amount of energy for extracting X quantity of HHO gas. Also, when the cell is not running it will draw out the remaining HHO gas. This is telling me that it is also taking the gas when the cell is powered up, letting the new one to form, in conclusion making the cell produce gas faster.
These were my first judgments when I saw the videos.
Ionutz
@IronHead thanks for your concern, 1,6l of gas on the top maybe no good idea.....
Want to try out some 230v thats standard voltage around here.... but have to figure out a way to have controle with currents.... (I m waiting for PMWPOWER to produce my PMW, I hope he is not a fraud, have not herd anything from him after he collected my money....)
By the way, have any of you any idea of what to yes instead of Goop, I can not find it anywhere. What is the content of that adhesive? MS polymer, Xylene, What?
Maybe I can find something similar
@joemumu
I agree on the fact that it should take less energy to produce gas under less pressure (vacuum). the liquid has a lower saturation point
and would release any gas produced due to the contamination in the water, in this case the contamination is electricity. What happens if you put
beer or soda in an unclean glass? If you bottle it it will hold the gas when efficient pressure is reached even if you have the contamination in the bottle, release the cap...... you know what is going to happen..... I believe or hope, that it is possible to release the gases in water by adding more than one contamination, meaning KOH, electricity, light, heat and maybe us.frequency?
Jon
I have a question...
Will regular plain old super glue be affected, or have an adverst effect chemicaly in the electrolyte, or the HHO? I really dont wanna create a toxic environment within my cell, or the air around it! That would be what I consider to be a bad thing!!!
Any input?
Lefty
Hey Ironhead it looks like you got a really active thread going here so I would like to share something with the world....So everyone spread this knowledge!!
Check out these http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Zer0PointUnlimited
Hi Ironhead!
You you seen this video:
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=HHxAebQoFHE
This is a lot of gas for 0.03 amps!?
What do you think of it?
Very impressive
This Cell is extremely impressive but the builder will not release any information on it.
Very unfortunate !
I wonder what would be the motives of someone puting something like that in the view of the public.
Either he really has something that wants to make money from in which case an intelligent person would be very tight lipped about it in the first place and show nothing to anyone or,
If he wants to put it in public domain which clearly this guy isn't.
Option 3, an attention seeker faking something.
Besides, The bubbles are too large and, given the hydrogen and oxygen and a spark cause an explosion, How did the bubbles get to the surface?
In some other video I saw someone firing a Tesla coil in a vat of water but he was getting nothing.
Ironhead
Sorry, I did not want to hijack your thread!
I think it is a Aquafuel generator but I'm not sure.
I would like to hear your opinion?
I have opened a new thread at http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3915.new.html#new
with links to 2 websites that show how to build an Aquafuel generator.
Without getting to deep and 20 pages of discussion.
Aquafuel is HHO , there are two basic ways to do it. The Aquafuel system you refer to is one of the ways using plasma the other is electrolysis. What you see in the video is sorta in between these two basics.
The reason why the guy is not talking is because he is now under contract from a company that saw his very old video he posted . The new system he built is for the company he is now under an NDA with.
Ironhead
Has this guy solved the problem of the carbon rods being consumed so quickly?
No idea. What I do know from the video is that is a fairly cold spark as it is yellow and not blue/white hot like you might see in a Plasma Aquafuel Cell . So he might have.
I agree with you about the spark colour. of course once we work out the generation of the spark then, comes the pulsating strategy.
take look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBcV748nxCk&feature=related
You all should not use plastic it is not safe. I made this 3 years ago and installed it in my 1983 Motor Home. 13.9 volt 25 amp, all SS,1.2 L per min. 454 Chevy. Holly Commander 950 4BL fuel injection system. Fuel reg. gas went from 6.5 MPG to 9 MPG at 70 MPH. 20,000 lb GVW.
The introduction of hydrogen and Ox into the system will make the O2 sensor indicate a lean condition. I have complete control over the A/F ratio and timing wile driving, my laptop computer is on a stand next to me so I can monitor everything.
Hydrogen has a very fast flame front compaired to gas. To run an IC motor on Hydrogen you need to set the timing closer to TDC.
Running a motor on hydrogen only will destroy the motor in 20 to 50 thousand miles.
Hi rayco
Interesting mileage results from your motorhome. It does seem that larger engines show a greater increase in MPG as far as percentages go. Congratulations on your build. How long have you had this in your vehicle?
Very informative and all your information seems correct in regard to engines also.
@ALL
I watched a video on you tube and I can't find it now, but it seemed it was very well done. They ran a 5 horsepower Briggs engine from a cylinder which contained hydrogen. The amount of H2 to run this engine was stated to be 5 PSI. This was fed directly into the intake by a 1/4 inch clear plastic hose. There was no carburator. They said that 5 PSI would run any amount of cylinders as only one would be drawing H2 into the piston at any given time. My question is what 5PSI would translate to in Liters per minute?
Thanks
Hi Jomumu
I did this a few years ago. I believe the video you are referring to did not show the 2 foot diameter balloon attached to the top of the unit. The balloon stored a few liters of gas before the engine was run.
How much fuel does a motor require to run on Hydroxy?, It takes as much as it needs. All motors and conditions are differant.
I build thing to last.
The next thing is to increase the output of this unit. I will install another alternator on the motor, remove the voltage regulator from it, and pulse its input.
Even though the output will show a higher voltage, the actual voltage going to the cells will be lower.
The water capacitor theory is a good approach.
What frequency should you pulse it at?
I have not checked it yet, but I will put a Freqency generator and counter on the input to the cell pump in a few volts and see where the voltage peaks out.
What people are doing wrong on this forum is their approach to the problem. I see people doing things here that were done 25 years ago. Do more research and some of the basics will become apparent then build on them.
Basics? Would you store a bunch of natural gas in a plastic box and then run a tube to a possable source of ignition and say it was safe? Of course not. So what do you do?
Make some thing that will not explode. I ran a 50 foot tube to the one I built and ran the unit for a wile. lit the end of the tube with a spark plug. No problem. Did the same thing with a plastic electrolyser and it blew up. Look at the junk they have in the ads on this forum. They are a law suite waiting to happen.
Bottom line is don't make thing to complicated, you don't need to.
Rayco
One more thing about the 5psi thing.
That was to reduse the foaming and boiling in the cell, It also will give you a smother flow of gas. I tried it using differant size hypodermic needles. you don't need it to just add gas to the motor. If it is foaming and boiling you are not making gas you are making tea.
Rayco
Newbie here,
I have been researching for about a month now Mr. Stan Meyers invention. Though I have found no figures on the quantity of H2 created. I found an excel file that calculates normal electrolysis yields but for a 3.0 liter car motor to run purely off of H2 it requires a large electrolyzer which presents many concerns along with weight. I have read and watched articles and videos that say High voltage is key or high current, and even electronic resonance which Mr. Meyers seemed focused on. My question I pose is what were Mr. Meyers' yields per in.2 and consumption rates of H2O with and without electrolyte?
Next do you have plans for the electrolyzers that you have build? if so could you post them in any format you see fit as a reply. Your help and knowledge would greatly be appreciated.
thanks
Jason
@Jmiller48
rayco posted a drawing a few posts up illustratings a conventional multiplate electrolyser, it is self explanatory. IMHO the design is compact, efficient and easy to build. If you are after a conventional electrolyser you would be hard pressed to find a better design, coated titanium would allow one more cell on each side at 12V but coated titanium anodes are not cheap.
I'm new to this WFC, I have been reading a lot about this WFC and what I have learned it that a lot of people are trying to replicate the cell but not the water injection. Is ther something I'm missing here. I'm also building one too. will post pictures when I get a few dings straighten out.
Why is everyone repilcating Stan's WFC when you can focus on Stan's water injectors. He steams the water and passes it throw micro tubes mixing it with air to reduce the high explosion rate (2.5 time more than fuel) to regular fuel level and then ignites it with 20,000 volts at 50khz. Isn't safer than traveling HHO through a gas pipe from the end of the car to the front (or under hood), also you have a box or cilinder of HHO ready to explode when near a heat,flame or/and spark source.
I also see that there is a lot of people not releaing some secretes like stan and taking to his grave and I wounder why his brother is not saying anything since he was the one who built the VIC and knows all our answers. Do you really think you can just go out and sell this technology to the world without the Oil, other companies and government interfering. There is no such thing as free to them. I think you will end up like Stan.
I think we need to make it and let it out to the world. Because That's what I'm going to do. Because there is a lot of people that don't have the $$$ to buy such technology but can have the $$$ to build one. and Why make the millions if you and your family can't spend it when the world dies from all the pollution and exchausted resources.
Quote from: IronHead on January 13, 2008, 11:54:05 AM
Yes but it is very high voltage making up for the low amps.
This Cell is extremely impressive but the builder will not release any information on it.
Very unfortunate !
In reference to the video: http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=HHxAebQoFHE
Please forgive me if this rambles. I'm writing this while in desperate need for sleep.
I've been thinking a lot about this and I keep circling back around to the idea of a thunderstorm. Think about what thunder is. What causes it? Lightning, right? Essentially lightning causes the air to "explode" and the sound we hear is the air rushing back together much how water behaves when something penetrates the surface with force. The water comes back together and produces a splash and so on.
I think there is something similar going on here. I don't think thats a plasma discharge seen in the video. I'm wondering if it could be something so simple as a modified Tesla Coil that's reacting to the material of the container, thus causing it to appear white instead of the typical blue. Those rods look like they are going at least partially through the container and then arcing through the water.
I think there are some possibilities here. The first is partial detonation of the hydrogen in solution. Oddly, this might not be catastrophic and amounts to fishing with dynamite. The force of the water imploding drives the gas out of solution. (Probably a crazy idea).
Another consideration is the presence of the spark. I would imagine that it induces an electromagnetic field that might sheer the H
2 molecules off of the plates.
I'm trying like mad to get the materials and a place set up to experiment. Creating a high electric potential between two rods with the cell in the middle would be something i'd be interested in trying.
Off to bed.
Good luck with your experiments, guys.
-RF
@rayco
Hi, The video I was referring to had no balloon at all. The pure hydrogen was coming from an industrial type tank which looked like a tank which one would use for welding containing acetylene or oxygen. What I was wondering was what would 5 PSI coming out of a 1/4 inch tube translate to in liters/minute.
Of course I understand what you mean by "it takes as much as it needs". This engine was idling at perhaps 800 RPM. More would be needed to run at higher RPM, and we're not even talking about acceleration yet, but this would give a better understanding of the production of gas needed to run an engine. Sort of a starting point for my own knowledge.
I would very much like to stay in contact with you as I will be building shortly. I own a small machine shop with CNC mills and lathes. I am amassing as much info and drawings as I can because I have found that doing so makes the building go much smoother.
Thanks for your reply
Alex
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMj14tPiIww&feature=related
I found the video. I was mistaken with some of the things I said about some of the parts, but you get the idea.
I guess the feeding tube or the metal tube going to the intake at the end of the plastic tube is actually 1/16 inch. It looks almost identical to a part I quoted some time ago for a company that had a machine that would insert electronic components into circuit boards. It would interest me to know how many liters/minute would keep up the flow of hydrogen at 5 PSI.
Check it out. It's been around for a while
Subscribed... still trying to read all the way through the thread so I understand everyone properly.
I have the 316L SS and some power sources on there way, plus some other odds and ends to give this a try. I will report back later as I discover along with what I'm reading.
Hi everyone
About the 5psi thing. It will do two things:
1 It will smooth out the flow of gas supplied to the engine.
2 It will cut down on foaming inside the electrolyzer.
If you want try hypodermic needles of different sizes to get the 5psi
I tried it and it is not necessary.
If you are making that much gas, get an Impaco gas fuel carb, the propane model, and change the jet size.
Remember this is not pure hydrogen so you need to try different size jets to get it right.
Rayco
@rayco
Thank you for your response. I now understand what you are saying about the 5 PSI smoothing out the flow and reducing the foaming inside the cell. These are added benefits. I know that HHO under pressure is not as safe but, the difference between that and HHO at no pressure can't be all that bad. Both will create nearly the same explosion.
Very good to mention changing the jet size change on a propane type carb. That would be something to consider.
All this about 5 PSI came from a request from me to Ironhead to review a drawing I had in pdf format of some guy that designed a cell for a motor cycle. His unit was under 30 PSI. You can review it if you like on one of my previous posts. I think it's a few pages back.
I agree with you that this is not necessary. I was just kicking it around and thinking of trying it. Thanks for your input rayco. We are all learning.
Welcome to the forum Bio-Texas-DFW. Good luck and keep the group informed on your progress.
Alex
Thank you very much for the welcome.
I built a cell based off ZFF's videos before I read all of these threads, so I'm going to have to go back and redo it (didn't get any gas output the first time around, but I made lots of mistakes according to these threads).
I plan to kind of start over with the basic outlined here then move on with some design ideas I have, then hopefully move into some more advanced techniques (pulses etc.).
HI all
Just a note
If I recall Myers work, he had a coil or two in line with the electrolyzer. Sounds like a tuned cirkit to me.
Some one I know built a 120 cell unit like mine and runs it with a 240 volt inverter ( about 2 volts per cell )
She got into the inverter and pusled the timing so she could tune it. That was 8 years ago.
Has anyone tried the MIT plasma device? It will work with water.
That may be what you are looking for, simple to build, multi fuel
Oh the electrolyzer in my motor home burns about 1 gal of distiled water every 1000 miles.
With the price of distiled water these days I will go broke.
Rayco
Below is a link to a video that shows production of hydrogen using radio waves and salt water. It doesn't appear to be overunity but it is electrodeless hydrolises of water. Of course the hype goes right to talking about putting it in the automobile. Even if it uses more watts to release the Hydrogen it is a significant step in the right direction towards fuel production and storage. Getting off the Oil needle is imperative. There is plenty of energy around but concentrating it and storing it is the age old problem.
I hope my grandchildren never have to see a "telephone pole" or high tension wire. Use the "natural gas"
distribution system for hydrogen and get off the sludge fuel. $100.00 a barrel for sludge and the rest of the world having to burn coal and wood to keep their kids alive. The Japaneese are light years ahead of the oil junky nations. They are perfecting fuel cell technology while the other engine manafacturer's are chasing fuel economy standards and emission limits. You burn sludge you get shit in the air no matter what you do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6vSxR6UKFM&feature=related
Well I for one couldn't agree more.
My personal goal is to become self sufficient, meaning I produce all of the energy on-site for my house and cars, plus produce all my own food and water. Once I have the system up and running for a while I'll work on getting my family and neighbors to do the same ;).
My original renewable fuel interests were in biodiesel (hens my forum name), but there is too much involved to make it as efficient to produce as say hydrogen.
@bio
May the powers that be bless the farmers!!!! Energy or food farmers. Let's not forget the fisherman too.
x2 to that ;)
Hi Guys
This was posted on the Joe Cell Free Energy device forum today.
I thought you might find it interesting.....
This guy charged water and got the shock of his life!!!!
"Hello to all members,
It is rather hard for me to type at this time because I am still
trembling, shivering, shaking, high strung, and more nervous that a
cat that has already used eight of his lives. I do think I have
calmed down enough to put some thoughts together. I thought some of
you might enjoy the experiment I did tonight so here it is: For the
last few years I have been trying to prove beyond the shadow of doubt
that water can or can not be electrically charged. I have several
tests on record that shows water will not charge, and then I have
several tests that show water will charge, so I am still at it.
Lately, since I have set up my wimshurst generator I have been doing
a lot of high voltage tests on water. I described the operation of a
wimshurst generator in an earlier post; it will produce between
100,000 and 200,000 volts.
One of the most important tests I have performed was trying to charge
a small container of water and then move it to another location and
test for a charge. The water in the plastic container would be about
one inch deep and the container is five inches square. At times I
could get the water and plastic container to give me a very mild
shock, at other times I was unsuccessful. To receive the very mild
shock I would have to very gently touch the surface of the water with
the tip of my finger, at times I could get 30 or 40 shocks from one
charge, but nothing great.
A while back Alex reminded me about the video of an electric pop
bottle that would shock you when you placed your finger in the top of
the bottle. I had seen something like this five or six years back but
never tried it. After Alex got me thinking about it again I decided
to experiment with the concept and it did not take long to learn that
getting a shock when you place your finger into the bottle was a
grave understatement. At least an understatement when you charge the
bottle with 100,000 volts dc.
Here is where I went wrong when trying to charge the small containers
of water: Apparently the water in the two liter pop bottle does not
charge as a unit, instead it charges in layers and this is easy to
prove. So the small container of water, one inch deep, was simply not
deep enough to have the layers charge. To charge the bottle filled
with well water I placed it on a five inch square piece of 20 gauge
SS within one inch of the negative twelve-inch toroid terminal. I
connected the positive toroid terminal to the water on the inside of
the bottle with a conductor attached to a small hot stick and held
near the positive terminal, it only takes three seconds or less to
charge the water. I can then pick the bottle up by the top of its
neck and transport it anywhere in my shop for testing.
The first few times I tested the water I simply placed my finger in
and touched the very top of the water, I thought this was another
dead end because no charge was detected. The third or fourth time I
placed the bottle in its location for testing, I accidentally set the
bottle down too hard on the test surface and a few drops of water
splashed out the top and hit my right forearm. Believe it or not the
water drops shocked my arm, and not just a prickling either. I jumped
back and thought what the - - - - was going on. My next thought was
could this water be charged and with high voltage, can this actually
be happening? Well it turned out that it was definitely happening!!!
The next bottle I charged was when it happened, the shock of my life.
Most of you know I have been working around high voltage for many
years; in fact it was my hobby. I have been shocked from every type
of high voltage gismo around and believe me when I say that this two-
liter bottle of water felt like the electric chair. With my left hand
finger in the water I was touching around the top area with my right
hand and I could hear a static crackling sound characteristic to high
voltage corona, but could not feel any shock sensation. About that
time I slid my right hand further down the side of the bottle and
that was when lightning hit me and picked me up off the floor, in
other words it levitated me.
After I recovered I started testing things out and this is when I
really got amazed. This time instead of sticking my finger into the
water I got smart and placed one end of a conductor into the water
and used the other end to probe around on the outside of the bottle.
As I moved the conductor around I could get electrical discharges
between one quarter and one half inch long, or more, from all lower
areas of the bottle. And get this, they never seem to stop, it goes
on and on and on. I let a charged bottle set for three hours and it
was just as active electrically as when first charged.
I then decided to test the charge locations on the bottle with a
small F4T5 fluorescent light bulb, and it worked great. I connected
one end of the bulbs electrodes to the water with a jumper and held
the five-inch long bulb in my hand to scan the sides of the bottle.
With my shop lights out the bulb was easily bright enough to see.
Just like with the jumper, as the bulb was moved to a new location on
the bottle the bulb would light up. If I used a sweeping motion
around the bottle the bulb would stay on continuous. The bottle
seemed to never discharge; the bulb went on and on and on. Sometimes
off the end of the bulb that was not attached to the jumper an
electrical discharge several inches long would occur and this
requires thousands of volts. I have a neon filled tube that I am
going insert into the water tomorrow t see if any charge in internal
to the water. When I left my shop I charged three bottles to set
overnight and test later.
I also charged a one-gallon water filled plastic milk bottle, and it
worked exactly the same as the two-liter pop bottle. Like I stated
above it only takes two or three seconds to charge the bottle of
water and it seems to last forever. I can already think of many tests
I need to perform on this project, but I am still amazed at how fast
this technique for charging is. If any of you can think of a test I
need to setup let me know and I will run it.
Still at this time I am not 100% sure it is the water that is charged
and not the plastic instead? As one of the upcoming tests I need to
charge the bottle and transfer the water into another bottle and see
if the charge goes with it. Also I need to try a glass bottle instead
of plastic, I am thinking it may not work. The charged bottle cannot
be acting as a Leyden jar capacitor; they require a metal on the
inside and outside of the jar or plastic container, I have built many
of them. This device seems to hold its charge longer than any
capacitor I have ever worked with. If I had not been there and done
that I would not have ever believed the results. James Goss"
This is a description of a water capacitor. The molecular bonding of a polarized molecule will respond to electrical input by stretching the bond angles. Perhaps the bond angle of the water molecule is already stretched and there is a potential energy scource waiting to be harvested? Water by atomic weight should be a gas not a liquid. It is the electron orbit configuration that makes the water molecule electrically polarized therefore able to bond to other water molecules on a charge level not by sharing electrons. This bond will store energy easily. When you heat water it takes 144btu's per pound to change it to a gas. Where is all that energy going while you are heating it? I dare say that it is going into stretching the polar bonds of the molecules. You take a pound of ethanol and apply the same amount of heat you get a pound of hot gas ethanol very quickly. No bond stretching going on there.
hell passion1 and everyone
if you watch the stan meyer video of new zealand (part 2 or 3) he will explain that if you knock of more of the electrons of the oxygen ( he uses a laser) the nucleus will release it energy some how. he explains it better. (I need to see it again. I have it if you want it). I think your doing it but with more volts instead lease volts with laser I think lease volts he doesn't say how much. He also explains a little that you can use HHO for energy like lighting a light build or even making a circuit to give energy to itself. Just watch it and do more google searches on atoms and you will learn more.
another more exciting hydrogen generator, fire from water, the smallest flame ever seen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2LiHkefxwY
I managed a decent flame a long while back. Used plenty more power though. Check er' out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkjQm4ICSH8
Hey guys,
I'm kind of new to all this stuff so bare with me.
I haven't read all 30 pages on this post so I hope someone hasn't asked these same questions.
I have been missing around with this HHO stuff for awhile me and a friend made a very crude cell a couple weekends again and made some good discoveries but couldn't produce enough HHO to do much with. I want to develop one to be able to put it in a car. I have noticed that there are a lot of plans on the internet and ebay that you can buy but I cant decide if they are a rip off or not and which one to be. Does anyone have any advice on this? do you think it is a waste of my money? which one should I purchase? is there a free one out there that is just as good? I think we pretty much have the jest of it figured out but need a little boost to make it good.
Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.
I suggest finding your own free plans elsewhere. the ebay e-books are scams. they put open info up for sale. do your own research. You need to understand how this stuff works before you build one for your vehicle. ebay isnt an easy button this time. i've heard people are doing well with the hafc setup. google hafc or picc if you are set on a bolt on device. good luck bud.
I understand how the stuff works.. theres just a few questions that I had I guess. and I thought having plans would assist me through.
I have done a lot of research on this and have looked at the HAFC. I sent off for a quote last week and havent heard anything back.. I like the idea of building it myself better though. I also did some research on the guy that owns the HAFC and I found a bunch of stuff that he is a crook and has been doing energy saving scams since early in 2000 sometime. so I dont really trust that.
Thanks for the help.
If you are interested in using my electrode design you can view a google sketchup 3d model at
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=754ce880315aaa01f0d3a96081323ab4 (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=754ce880315aaa01f0d3a96081323ab4)
Its the most efficient gas producing cell out there. You can view videos of it in action. just go to youtube and search for DallasGoldBug
Thanks
DallasGoldBug
How are you guys cutting the grooves for your cell plates in the acrylic??
i have an industrial full wave rectifier set-up that rectifiers that can handle up to 160 amps.....when connected to the mains it produces 166 volts dc unfiltered... would this be pulsed at 120 hz? input freq is 60 hz.
HHO Maximus
Forget the magnetrons....Its Klystron time
The use of Magnetic Induction Plasma
http://ufo.egrd.net/egrd.99374.swf
In Tokamak reactors the inductive current drive is inherently pulsed and therefore incompatible with the steady operation of a power plant. However, with the design of Plasma Reactors similar to the 30 A Series the Magnetic induction of the plasma is essential in order to derive the resonant harmonic cycle of the device operation. To order the magnetic induction of microwave frequency plasmas at resonance to All device parameters.
Nikola
http://egrd.net
;D I'm building my hho driver board and on the high frequency side there was suppose to a 200 nF 16v capacitor in the cricuit. I placed a big order and receive my components from MOUSER in Dallas,Tx. But I'm missing the 200nF cap. Does anyone think I can place 2 100 nF capacitors in series and get same results as 200nF?
ATTO what are you saying about this vid on magnetic plasma? Chet
Hi all & IH. My first post. Wow this topic was read 90,000x. I read all 30 pages of it, watched all the great videos, got lost in a "Youtube video spiderweb". Read all the other great related topics posted about HV etc.
A short introduction - today I am a machinist. I tried doing this stuff as a kid - putting 9V batteries or wiring A.C. adapters in a cup of water and wondering what to do with the bubbles! And I had one of those cheap electronic kits that came with a strip of zinc for making a battery. But I, instead zinc plated a penny with it.
I want to put my cell(s) in my '99 Toyota Corolla 140,000 miles. Baseline 30/35mpg. BTW 3 oz acetone per tank is good for another 2+ mpg. Measured the gains/losses constantly while delivering pizzas for ~2 years & 30,000 miles and going to school. Back when gas was $2.29 gallon...
Built three spiral cell designs from a Tesla coil capacitor idea to be chained in series. Three plastic (PPE I think) sealed ~16 oz containers - each cell uses one +, one - ss mesh and one ss neutral mesh and plastic mesh separators. I chose this design due to simplicity, cost, familiarity, and reasonable reports of gas output. I was pleasantly surprised at the output, low current draw, and low enough heat. It will be easy to make several of these to share with others. Hardly any machining required.
12v drew 3A all three cells total, so I added 0.08 tsp. NaHCO3 to each. 5A draw, 105 degrees all three cells total. Raised V to 24, drew 11A 125 degrees - good gas production, pics and flow rate TBD. Afraid to give a rough guess.
One annoying problem is that GOOP doesn't stick to plastic. Does anything stick to plastic?!
Thank you forum for your guidance, and numbers and stuff. Fight the good fight...
Some serious questions I still have are about surface tension, freezing and resonance.
1) Would modifying the surface tension of water using a surfactant or ultrasonics improve gas production?
2) What would happen if you add ammonia to prevent freezing in winter? Is it safe and does ammonia aid/reduce HHO production?
3) I seem to recall reading about these cells behaving like capacitors. Will a capacitance meter help me figure out a frequency to pulse the cell at? In a similar idea, has anyone tried to use a variable inductor in parallel with the cell to try resonance? Any coilers?
Quote from: Zoot Suit on July 30, 2008, 02:21:43 AM
Some serious questions I still have are about surface tension, freezing and resonance.
1) Would modifying the surface tension of water using a surfactant or ultrasonics improve gas production?
2) What would happen if you add ammonia to prevent freezing in winter? Is it safe and does ammonia aid/reduce HHO production?
3) I seem to recall reading about these cells behaving like capacitors. Will a capacitance meter help me figure out a frequency to pulse the cell at? In a similar idea, has anyone tried to use a variable inductor in parallel with the cell to try resonance? Any coilers?
Hey Zoot,
I live in upstate new york and I have a few ideas, one of which I will be trying myself this winter.
1- Battery warmer-as long as you have access to a plug
2- Snowmobile hand grip warmers-run off battery but should work ok as long as you also put in a battery trickle charger to counteract the draw which I believe is minimal.
3- Coffee mug warmer plates- also run off battery.
I'm probably going to use the battery warmer just due to the fact I have easy access to a place to plug in both at home and at work.
Hope this helps, later
S
IronHead,
I read in an earlier post of yours that baking soda creates poison when used in the electrolyzer, what is this poison? I was just curious cause I'm a noob to HHO and I have built and am using a single
http://www.overunity.com/hho.htm
type cell(which I was told by thier site to use baking soda) in my vehicle right now but I'm working on plans to build a variant of ZeroFossilFuel's VSPB cell shortly with a PWM.
Will this poison harm my vehicle? I was thinking about changing to KOH anyway just to try to get away from the heat instability of the baking soda.
Thanks for your time,
S
I found a YT video of a gas output experiment - ultrasonic vs. no ultrasonic. Check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxtug3pIHlc
Also a link about MIT electrolysis discovery using cobalt and phosphate catalyst on one electrode and platinum on the other. I wonder if something cheaper than platinum would work?
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/oxygen-0731.html
Hey guys , sorry I have not been on here in a long time. Myself and others have been working on a solution for people that do not have the time or ability to build their own Cells . So we have put this together http://energybuilders.net/ to help more people get into this technology. We are fully open source for those that can "build it" as you will see on the net and youtube . There are many videos on what we are doing and how.
Hope to get back into the OU fourm abit more as time provides
Thank you
IronHead
Quote from: MADMARV74 on July 10, 2008, 08:58:21 PM
;D I'm building my hho driver board and on the high frequency side there was suppose to a 200 nF 16v capacitor in the cricuit. I placed a big order and receive my components from MOUSER in Dallas,Tx. But I'm missing the 200nF cap. Does anyone think I can place 2 100 nF capacitors in series and get same results as 200nF?
Parallel you will get 200 nf ,in series you get 50 nf.
professor
Quote from: ZeroFossilFuel on August 05, 2007, 10:25:46 PM
I'd like to recap here some of what the experimental test cell has taught me so far.
A) It is reasonably accurate to say that gas production is proportional to wattage input (I x E) for a given concentration of electrolyte.
...
ZFF
I don't agree with this. plate surface area can change it too, not just electrolyte concentration.
My experiment (tap water, 9 volts battery, no electrolyte, 2mm x 3mm surface in paralel) proove that voltage per square inch is more relevant.
When more surface is covered with glue, reducing exposed surface to water, more gas is generated and current drawn is lower, more gass at less watt, more efficient.
Sorry for broughting out old post, but I think we can achieve better effeciency if we consider surface area too.
Anyone want to try can use grid like insulated plate for experiment. The distance between exposed surface should at least double of plate distance. Make sure opening is facing each other.
Quote from: IronHead on October 16, 2008, 05:26:09 PM
We are fully open source for those that can "build it" as you will see on the net and youtube . There are many videos on what we are doing and how.
Be gentle... this is an opinion... I have read this entire thread completely through 31 pages, I am unable to locate the ORIGINAL
thread that this was parsed from. I know it was at least twice the size as this one and contained valuable starting blocks
to this technology.
I'm unable to verify this claim since all involved in the original class have STOPPED posting to this thread. And since you now
have a "PRODUCT" to "SELL" all the "open source" info is NOT on your site. Video links only. No diagrams. No Specs on the cell.
It has all seemed to go COMMERCIAL. Dealers/Resellers are welcome, but any OPEN SOURCE info from months gone by has been removed, which goes a very long way to explain why all the new cell designs are kept closed source, not posted to this thread or any others here at OU. Nothing on the new designs for flow and cell spacing, oh but wait, I can just buy one and reverse engineer the hardware. It seems that all the PRODUCTS listed on the site were worked out OFFLINE, w/o OPEN SOURCE sharing.
Wow...
I think information posted in this thread teach us enough stuff to make some crazy output HHO generation. There are clue on how to improve the effeciency.
But not anyone has the same final configuration isn't it? Some believe tube, other believe in palte, some believe in dry cell, some believe in isolated water, some believe in open bath. Some use high voltage, some use high ampere. There are people that use unusual configuration like me who use many very small surface and low voltage.
Different configuration have different tuning. Some tuning information is available. but it seems a slight difference in implementation can lead to different tuning data. I think this is what make open source data sometimes irrelevant. Not anyone has resource to do perfect replication.
Eagle research's 3 watt per liter sure is like impossible to reach for us. But I think information available on the net allow us to reach that if we have learn all the info and improve our design little by little.
What I learn from this thread that I think is valuable:
- 304 < 316 < 316L < and Nitronic 50
- Distilled < Tap water < Spring Water < Rainwater
- Pvc can handle KOH, but polycarbonate can't. Polycarbonate can handle NaOH, but pvc can't
- SS heat conditioning to reduce magnetic property
- water capacitive charge conditioning
- metal that should not be used for electrolysis
- electrolyte that should not be used for electrolysis
- water circulation improve gas production
- more insulation reduce current leakage
- effeciency can be tuned with proper concentration of electrolyte, right combination of plate gap, plate size, vibration frequency (if using PWM), current and voltage (and for me pair surface area and total surface area too).
frog, I think your post may end up upsetting people and prevent further information sharing ......
All stuff you can get from other sites and all over the net... Just look around at YouTube and ebay
to see what's being hawked by people like this.... Puts a bad taste in the mouth of everyone seeking
REAL WORLD answers from the people on boards like this.
It was a simple SNAKE OIL tactic... I went back and parsed his posted threads...
WOW, what a read that made... NOT ONCE did he post any PICTURES or VIDEO or this unit RUNNING
on his automobile.... NOTICE throughout this topic, not one picture that wasn't shopped in some 3d software.
Ya'll, myself included was HAD by a SNAKE OIL peddler PERIOD. Not a single stitch of REAL WORLD data
came from IronHead... parse the topic yourself, you will be amazed... Where's the electronics for this he promised?
Where have all his students suddenly gone? Look at the post dates and the last dates posted by all his "enthusiastic"
students... He pulled a fast one, and I'm certain he pulled $$$ from wallets as well....
And the sheep wonder why we don't trust any of this technology... They get HAD by people like this...
YEAH, YEAH, YEAH... I've been to his website, and his youtube handle, what a joke... people wake up...
sheep...
Yes your vehicle can/will run on HHO.. that's easy ... plenty of people are altering LPG/NG conversion
kits to run with their HHO setups ... Even going so far as to store it as Meyer's did ...
WAKE UP SHEEP ...
Why are you angry?
IronHead just show how to build High Voltage HHO generator. Even if it is still far from running car solely on HHO he still explain a lot of thing for us. He never promise us that we can put high voltage HHO generator in a car. what part of it is snake oil?
If you refer to the product he want to sell, aren't we free to choose? there are other alternative like from waterfuelforall or watertorch. But the one he sell currently trend (dry cell) isn't it?
I hate IronHead's website too, but not because it's content. But because of it's trying to infect my computer when I try to browse it, occasionally, maybe not his fault but maybe the site software or ads. Today I got four Antivir popup notifying trojan.... IH, please check your site.
About electronic, is it really that important? Even in open bath parallel configuration we can limit the current by controlling the plate area size or gap.
More info here guys I am rebuilding so it will take some time but this will take you far beyond this old thread here http://www.energybuildersnetwork.com/
Hi All, IH
I just wanted to say hi and let you guys know, i found this thread a few days ago and have built a cell and have been running it (after conditioning) at 60v rectified from ac at 50hz.
I'm in South Africa and our fuel prices are huge at the mo. so i'm keen to get it to work. So far ive got more gas than other methods tried. Ive just finished my freq generator with a simple 555 ic and without having to keep changing the cap i can vary from 15khz right up to 40khs. i should be able to find the sweet spot with this, trying tom. later i will add other oscillators with other 555s. i think itl be possible to then not only use to use a couple frequencies, but also have custom frequencies set for each cell. do you think this is a good idea?
are there still people here building and discussing here?
Or is it moving to the energy builders network?
Thanks for this info, i have learned so much in a short time here.
Regards
Chris
P.S: come with a cheque oil giants
Quote from: frog on October 27, 2008, 01:47:58 AM
YEAH, YEAH, YEAH... I've been to his website, and his youtube handle, what a joke... people wake up...
sheep...
Yes your vehicle can/will run on HHO.. that's easy ... plenty of people are altering LPG/NG conversion
kits to run with their HHO setups ... Even going so far as to store it as Meyer's did ...
WAKE UP SHEEP ...
Wake up Sheep, I like that. YooToobe seems to be ground zero for the faithful sheep. Damn stoopid science :)
Well my Utube handle was made up before I started posting about HHO and has to do with old sgi computer users.
This thread was not to prove what I was doing was right or wrong.This was a replication thread.
It was put here to motivate people that wanted to work with HHO. I have asked nothing from anyone
outside of replicating a simple cheap Cell to see what they find. Also when reading this thread you
must understand how old and out dated it is.
I only came back here to tell
everyone where this thread is going to be picked up again, at least for the public. My private forum is closed.
This why I started a public one. I am not asking anyone to believe anything , this is not a religion. But, if you like
to experiment with this kind of technology to see if this is just a way to pass the time, or if it is something
usable. You have free will to do so, despite what others say. The sheep comment is just foolish. I dont care if you
work in this field or not. If you have the same interest that I do and many others , well we are out here.
The stuff you see on my Utube page are just crazy ideas I was fooling with just to see what happens.
Here are a few things the team is fooling with now. These are experiments in HHO, no claims to over unity
and such, if there is such a thing. We find Utube an easy way to share what we are doing without having to use
huge bandwidth from my server. There are many that enjoy our videos. If you do not, dont watch them.
If you have no interest in this technology why would you read and follow it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nANtFE2hcvs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhIYHemOCNE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APpGvVWsZZ8&feature=PlayList&p=C547458B2E914426&index=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JghGIa4h3Ow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fVw7uzuvLI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKLwTaYYoDo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBJlZq2GQRM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs-Uk511S_I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz3pkTWjNLI
http://www.youtube.com/user/AllgoodAutomation
There is much much more.
Quote from: frog on October 27, 2008, 01:24:54 AM
All stuff you can get from other sites and all over the net... Just look around at YouTube and ebay
to see what's being hawked by people like this.... Puts a bad taste in the mouth of everyone seeking
REAL WORLD answers from the people on boards like this.
It was a simple SNAKE OIL tactic... I went back and parsed his posted threads...
WOW, what a read that made... NOT ONCE did he post any PICTURES or VIDEO or this unit RUNNING
on his automobile.... NOTICE throughout this topic, not one picture that wasn't shopped in some 3d software.
Ya'll, myself included was HAD by a SNAKE OIL peddler PERIOD. Not a single stitch of REAL WORLD data
came from IronHead... parse the topic yourself, you will be amazed... Where's the electronics for this he promised?
Where have all his students suddenly gone? Look at the post dates and the last dates posted by all his "enthusiastic"
students... He pulled a fast one, and I'm certain he pulled $$$ from wallets as well....
And the sheep wonder why we don't trust any of this technology... They get HAD by people like this...
What a fukin' dipshit. Blame others for his in-breading and self-professed-ignorance.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that amateur HHO will just increase the efficiency of the ICE, but people are building systems now that get 30 to 40 percent or more.
You got "HAD" when you could have gotten everything free.
Pull the trigger next time dumb-ass.
Here are a couple of the latest 12 volt 8" Cell Stacks I am messing with. Thought some of you might be interested in a couple pix.
That Stainless Steel thing is a self re-set explosion proof bubbler/dryer with the flashback valve seat at the top, custom
build by a good friend. You will see it in action in one of the videos I posted above.
Just build it
IronHead
Wow,
Finally something with some meat. Thanks for the pictures.
Frog
Nice work IronHead
Most people have no idea how much time is involved with making the slightest increase of production with HHO devices .
I have been following your work and i can appreciate the progress you have made and I particularly like that flashback arestor you use.
I seen a video of that one and Im amazed how well that works.
Anyway keep up the good work there are plenty of us that appreciate what you have done
Glad to hear that there will be more update. I really interested about ultrasonic effect on electrolysis :).
Great work :).
Thank you for showing me this old link Iron Head, fun to see how things evolve over time ;D
Here is my contribution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7pyyz7lRgc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7pyyz7lRgc)
Mr H2inICE
ironhead, have you ever measure the hydrogen production volume output differences of your ultrasonic experiment?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxtNsIUIOS0
Because I suspect that maybe the larger bubble happen because of more hydrogen being generated, and thus create larger bubble. It look like the difference of bubble size of my 0.34A and 3A cell. The 0.34A cell create mist that clouding the water, slowly uprising from the inner rod. The 3A cell produce noticably larger bubble, do not create mist cloud, the water still clear, and has faster bubble movement.
The only thing I have seen Ultrasonic do is help to combine those tiny bubbles to larger ones helping to get the gas out of solution.
I have never seen a gas increase with Ultrasonic systems. That does not mean it can not be done. With the right combo of freqs in
the right designed Cell system, I think something might work. Again just speaking from the ultrasonic range
BTW that is not my video but it is Allgood's video, one of the members of EBN and guys that I work with. Many of us have done the same tests with the same results.
I see. thanks for the info. Even if there are no increase in HHO production, it would still be usefull. Would it work on dry cell as well? maybe by directing the speaker to dry cell side or to water container?
I am interested with the tesla device build by allgoodautomation, It would be interesting to see wether tesla device radiant energy output can be used for electrolysis.
You would use it on the bubbler/reserve not the Cell itself . this would again help to get the gas out of solution.
I see, thanks. I wish you luck for more result in your experiment :).
Although there are many other spectrum's that people have worked in including myself having some interesting effects and output data. Take a look at such studies as BlackLight Technologies. Much of the work I did was in the 400nm area with light spectrum's applied as frequency and so forth. I have also seen a few people working in the very low frequency spectrum's , down in the few hz levels with multiple sympathetic variations. There have been some very interesting results to say the least.
We have come a long way. If you look back when this all started. It was impressive in those days to get 1lpm, and today it is common to see 10 to 15 lpm
But also we have found that it is not necessarily true the more HHO you produce the more MPG you get in an automotive situation. There are many factors involved if you are using this tech for Fuel millage. And BTW EBN makes no Claim to MPG increases. This is still under intense study. The HHO Cells that we market are for experimental purposes. We have never made a claim to gain MPG although some people have used these Cells for that purpose.We are not a booster company, EBN are Research and Developers as you would see when visiting our web page. We show you what we do and how we do it, from A to Z and the outcome of those experiments.We dont just say we get this and that ! If we claim an MMW or LPM marker then we show how it was done and show the test results in video. For instance others show huge MMW rating like 10 or above but never show you a gas temperature. We all know the hotter the gas the more expanded it is and then you see the very hot Cells producing mostly steam. This does not make for a very accurate test. All my test are done with dried gas and 70 to 90F these days.
Now days there seems to be abit of a war going on over all this . This one claiming that and the other claiming they did it first.
Outright lies about what this and that is doing. Advertising convincing you they have the answers to all your dreams.
Look beyond all of that , BECAUSE IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO DID WHAT WHEN! learn from each other and move forward.
Share your results
There is so much misinformation out there , learn the truth and the proper way to find the truth in your own experiments. Then one day
the questions can be answered and the fuel we call water may have a place in this world. Someday...
IronHead
Quote from: IronHead on December 14, 2008, 02:25:51 PM
We have come a long way. If you look back when this all started. It was impressive in those days to get 1lpm, and today it is common to see 10 to 15 lpm
IronHead
@
IronHead
Do you mean you have achieved overunity?
I am not sure about the whole overunity part anyway and what it really means. As far as I know unity has to do with phase.
Here you have on demand fuel
processing where fuel is the water instead of oil at least in its very primitive state of this technology used in
and automobile. But again this technology really does not have its place yet as there is so much more to do
and understand.. There is a long way to go.
This is all much bigger than just a Water Fuel Cell . There are many technologies that must be combined
to achieve these goals.Along with tuning the systems that run this fuel or use it as a booster of some kind. Such
as the common gasoline combustion engine . The spark frequency alone is a big issue an for the most part
completely over looked. HHO production is just a small part of what is needed in these systems
15 liters per minute would make my Nova 307 c.u. V-8 jump for joy and maybe my pocket book too!
The gas station next door to me has finally raised the gas price from 1.71 to 1.75 per gallon.
Anyway, I am using rain water to condition my ss tubes and it stays a lot cleaner and from this first batch of water haven't had to change it yet.
My interest of now is of ultrasonics. Can you post a diagram and where a person can obtain the ultrasonics equip.,and how you mount such a device? or is it still a secret.
Regards,
Ray W.
BAH!
Just a quick question. Does this process use just water or does it use water plus a dissolved solid ?
Poor IH... Your answering the same questions in different ways.
Currently trying things in your tutorial have just sourced some SS plate (been using tubes till i saw this tread). Only took me 5 weeks to read the 120+ pages... lol... i hope i can contribute to your efforts and to EBN in the future... Or atleast be on par with your original class. If you can check in from time to time perhaps help me out in my slow process with any ideas would be greatly appreciated (i work slow for the lack of free time :) ) I'd just like to thank you and hope that everyone reads the thread before asking you questions that have pretty much been answered previously.
Sorry guys , I am still here but deal with many Forums of my own and others, this is why it might take me so long to reply.
Guys I dont mind answering questions over and over . I know there are new people getting into this and this thread is not only old but outrageously massive.
I should start a new thread with all the new data and builds, and I will as soon as I find the time to do so.
"lefferdink" any fish and pond store will have the ultrasonic foggers, also try eBay they have these cool 10 place systems with 10 pucks in one unit.
Problem is these things don't like KOH so much and will fail in time in a strong KOH solution.
"sparks" Distilled water and KOH make up the electrolyte for the HHO process in this type of system.
"CrazyEwok" I am here as much as I can be and will try to help in anyway I can.
Hi Ironhead--My apologies and MANY THANKS for the information.
The drinking water here in AZ. is full of many things and I'll have to filter it somewhat. The water has an automatic conductance and works like KOH as far as resistance and conductance goes. It will not eat away on the ultrasonic devices. Thanks for the heads up.
Regards
Im getting ready to sell the TwisterHHO cell next month. Heres a photo of the unit.
Nice looking Cell container , what type of electrolyte does this use? I ask because this seems to be all aluminum and KOH can not be used with aluminum.
This is correct, but a 2 ltr plastic bottel fits nicely inside. Ive also been playing with Teflon coatings, but haven't picked out a definite yet. I'm using sodium carb not bicarb. I'm also using a pwm so the amount is not important. The cell can also be used as a sleeve around a stainless extrusion. fits nice and snug so it acts as a heatsync, keeping the contents cool and Ive even attached fans to the slots to cool it even more.
Take a look at my 13 tube in tubes video
suitable for high voltage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cscJUwHIA10
test
Quote from: RichardDay on April 05, 2007, 03:52:55 AM
Hi Ironhead,
You mentioned that this new cell acts like a capacitor. Am I right in saying that you pulse the cell until dialetric breakdown occurs? In order to do this you would need a blocking diode to prevent the electronics flowing back when the voltage is at 0V wouldn't you?
yes, diodes are used, and stan said you could power a light bulb when it flows back...
Quote from: IronHead on December 14, 2008, 04:11:32 PM
I am not sure about the whole overunity part anyway and what it really means.
It means that you extracted energy from nothing (created it) and violated the laws of physics.
I think Stan Meyer was extracting energy from molecular spin, which ultimately comes from the Sun, since the Sun is beating down on lakes and rivers. This is not over unity, although Stan called it over unity because he misused the english language.
For example if I extract energy from water and cool the water down somehow to 0 degrees, this is extracting kinetic energy from water molecules.. that's not really over unity because the energy already existed inside the water. Even extracting kinetic molecular energy violates current laws of physics but that's because Nano technology and Nano science wasn't available when they made those laws. Reducing the Mass also produces energy and violates older physical law thinking, but when Einstein came up with the E=mc2 they revised science to include that.