QuoteStefan,
It was suggested by wattsup that Thanes list be locked and a new list started called " Thane Heins Perepiteia Replications"
I have received several posts from Thane and it is my conclusion that he has been forbidden to post anymore information on the internet.
Okay ,
this is now the Replication thread.
Until Thane returns, let's lock the old thread and keep
this as the new replication thread.
Many thanks to all who work on this.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: hartiberlin on May 28, 2009, 05:54:52 PM
Okay ,
this is now the Replication thread.
Until Thane returns, let's lock the old thread and keep
this as the new replication thread.
Many thanks to all who work on this.
Regards, Stefan.
Thanks Stefan,
And Hi to all of you who have found the new forum!
Welcome!
Hopefully we can keep this on track as a replicators forum.
Although I must confess I am not working on this myself at the present. As you may remember I was promised some E cores and I went into wait mode... well as you can guess... they never arrived, so still in wait mode, lol
Regards,
Ron
Thanes last model ....
All welcome. Its nice to see a new replicator tread.
@ i_ron
Would you mind sir sharing a place you got your E cores from? Are E core legs offset in any way against the magnets or they have to match exectly 3 consecutive magnet placement? (by degrees)
Thank You
Regards Minde
Quote from: i_ron on May 28, 2009, 07:27:27 PM
Although I must confess I am not working on this myself at the present.
So how swings the Milkovic pendulum?
Quote from: minde4000 on May 28, 2009, 10:27:53 PM
All welcome. Its nice to see a new replicator tread.
@ i_ron
Would you mind sir sharing a place you got your E cores from? Are E core legs offset in any way against the magnets or they have to match exectly 3 consecutive magnet placement? (by degrees)
Thank You
Regards Minde
Minde,
I was still using MOT cores, (blush) which Mr T laughed at...
and I was still on the three legged core. Mr T posted where he got his 'new' core from... did anybody log that?
Ron
edit: Mr T was going to send me some... Owen was going to send me some... none came... I do not have a source
Quote from: derricka on May 28, 2009, 10:30:32 PM
So how swings the Milkovic pendulum?
derricka,
I posted a little study recently which caused the usual reaction from the nay sayers. It is fun! But so little time in a day... I am working on a E bike, my daughter had me doing a kitchen remodel and I spent too much time on this key board!
Ron
OT for sure but you asked, lol
Note this just a study to examine the input, like a hand, to
what the output ratio could be...
http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Images/Merenja/Ronald_Pugh_Input-Output_Measurement_Mk5.pdf
Quote from: i_ron on May 28, 2009, 07:27:27 PM
And Hi to all of you who have found the new forum!
Welcome!
Mission statement... I don't want to come across as a self styled expert, or worse... I just wanted to make a few posts to get this group off to a friendly start... then I will shut up.
All I did was make a couple of rotors for Thane. He paid me way more than I asked, so no complaints. However he never told me anymore than what he said on list so I know as much as you! We sort of parted ways, yet he surprised me in that he kept me up to date on what was happening with his company.
I am pleased to answer questions and talk about Thane's stuff but do make the distinction that this only my opinion that I am expressing, OK?
Ron
Lets get some replication starting information going here. Some basic data mining with reference links can go a long way to being succesful.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Thanes post here
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4047.msg169868#msg169868
Thane wrote the first 8 magnet rotor setup was "N N S S N N S S - IS CORRECT"
-------------------------------------------------------------
Core material that Thane pointed to in this post
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4047.msg169405#msg169405
"CORE MATERIAL:
GO ONLINE AND FIND REALLY GOOD QUALITY CORE M2, OR M3 HERE IS SOME GOOD INFO: http://www.kryfs.com/tech_articles.htm "
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Proof of OU ?
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4047.msg173503#msg173503
Thane wrote :"We are now getting 30 watts (or more / coil) with a total of 8 coils = 240 watts out.
The eddy current and cogging torque losses are now fixed (it won't go any higher with the addition if coils of any size) and the motor input = 223 watts.
With the correct sized and lower eddy current stator ring from Toroid Tech - we can safely expect 50 watts / coil - which is our goal right now, - 400 watts out and about 200 watts in.
We could easily have a double sided rotor with two stator rings & coils producing around 800 watts. There really is no limit now!"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notice that Thane stated : stator ring from Toroid Tech
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Magenets used : Lee Valley one inch magnet
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From I_ron about the last rotor he made for Thane that held 18 magnets and was seen in his last video :
1/4 inch steel plate material
OD: 10.5 inches.
Center line for round magnets: 9.0 inches
18 Magnets
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps other replicators can find other useful information in the original thread and post a reference link here with a highlight of what is important.
Thank you i_ron. I just got my core this morning waiting on rotor. Does anyone know if E core legs match 3 consequent magnets exectly against each other or E core legs should be couple of degrees offset aigainst the magnets in any way? Still need to find L laminates for coil mounts and E laminates for additional experimental coil laminates. Need only one E core if anyone would be willing to sell/gift please send PM.
Were T's laminates from magnetic metals i_ron?
Regards Minde
Quote from: minde4000 on May 29, 2009, 10:59:50 AM
Thank you i_ron. I just got my core this morning waiting on rotor. Does anyone know if E core legs match 3 consequent magnets exectly against each other or E core legs should be couple of degrees offset aigainst the magnets in any way? Still need to find L laminates for coil mounts and E laminates for additional experimental coil laminates. Need only one E core if anyone would be willing to sell/gift please send PM.
Were T's laminates from magnetic metals i_ron?
Regards Minde
That sounds familiar Minde, could be.
Now firm up in your mind which coil you want to build. The three legged form is an earlier model with the HV coil on the center leg with the HC coil wound over top of all three legs.
Because the magnets are mounted on a radius, the three legs will not line up with three magnets anyway...
Ron
Quote from: hydrocontrol on May 29, 2009, 08:53:26 AM
Lets get some replication starting information going here. Some basic data mining with reference links can go a long way to being succesful.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Magenets used : Lee Valley one inch magnet
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From I_ron about the last rotor he made for Thane that held 18 magnets and was seen in his last video :
1/4 inch steel plate material
OD: 10.5 inches.
Center line for round magnets: 9.0 inches
18 Magnets
Thats a good idea and a good start HC
If I can just add to that... the Lee Valley magnets are 1" by 1/8th inch. These are sold all over so no need to seek out Lee Valley. These were chosen just for convenience as there is a Lee valley store in most Canadian cities now, Victoria just got a store last month! But they also sell mail order. Now on the #2 rotor Thane went to the stronger grade magnet (at the time of the California demonstration) Whether he kept these I don't know as they couldn't get it over 1000RPM with these magnets at the demo....Thats why you see him starting the ryobi first, letting the R's come up then tilting the mag holder plate into place and doing up the fastener....He went to the new core material at this time also, which helped kill the drag enough to let it run, but as I say... I don't know which magnet strength.
On the rotor... 1/4 inch plate, but machined both sides so the final dimension was from around .200 thou (#1 rotor)to .230 thou final thickness (#2 rotor). Not that it matters a hill of beans... just being precise.
Ron
@i_ron
Ya they will not line up. I assume E core spacing between fingers should be as closely the same as the distances between curved 3 magnets.
I would like to have both: at least 1 E core and toroidal setup via some kind of easy change-over design or 2-in-1
Minde
Quote from: minde4000 on May 29, 2009, 04:05:55 PM
@i_ron
Ya they will not line up. I assume E core spacing between fingers should be as closely the same as the distances between curved 3 magnets.
I would like to have both: at least 1 E core and toroidal setup via some kind of easy change-over design or 2-in-1
Minde
How big is your toroid?
Ron
Toroid M3-009 grain oriented steel:
ID OD HT BUILD GAPP
[in] 7.000 11.000 2.000 2.000 0
If anyone could recall where Mr T got his laminates at or another descent place to buy them please pm or reply. Didnt have much luck browsing thru google search ???
Regards Minde
Quote from: minde4000 on May 30, 2009, 12:32:12 AM
Toroid M3-009 grain oriented steel:
ID OD HT BUILD GAPP
[in] 7.000 11.000 2.000 2.000 0
If anyone could recall where Mr T got his laminates at or another descent place to buy them please pm or reply. Didnt have much luck browsing thru google search ???
Regards Minde
What is done is done... where I was going with that is the size in my mind is rather large. I think for the Hz that these RPM's produce, the core and the toroid should be much smaller.
For an interesting article do see Hydro's link message.
For suppliers see...
http://www.magmet.com/page1.php
Click on products...
So the ultimate is finemet ft3... or Sq50,
"Square 50 - 50% Ni/Fe/ alloy, (grain oriented). It offers the highest squareness ratio (lowest saturated reactance) and very high gain. This material has Bm while cores losses are low enough to consider its use in higher frequency applications than the silicon steels. Applications include bi-stable switching devices, inverter transformers, high performance power magnetic amplifiers, linear current transformers, timing devices, driver transformers, and wherever an extremely square loop material, manufactured to close tolerance, is required."
<http://www.magmet.com/tapewound/square50.php>
or just CRGO steels might be in budget.
Ron
Edit:Core research from correspondence with Nali (Steven)
Thanks for the info i_ron. As far as I have seen T had two different toroidal cores: one almost exect specs that I have and one much thinner ring as one of his photos show. His latest/last video had "fat" toroid. I do agree about the smaller size and better material but I guess I will try to get this one going and then go from there... I am worried about my rotor too wich is different from one you made for T. Oh well. Time will tell. It would be great to get some info from other "replicators" but it seems that people are not too willing to share their projects here so if this way will continue I will go offline too..
Edit: live core size example was clearly demonstrated at T's california christmas videos when his relatively(vs toroid) small single E core inductance coil combination accelerated in 100rpm jumps wich we didnt see on his latest videos. Probably that particular E coil inductance accidentaly closely matched the rest of his systems specs (magnets strenght freq and etc.) so it gave such spectacular effects.
Edit: on the other hand if I would ever go as high as 16 coils on my core (double sided) the size might not be too overkill at that point.
Regards Minde
I will share my details Minde!
I do not speak so often because i have little time in my disposal so no fast progress is made.
I realize u guys want to continue from there Thane stopped. That's good.
on the other hand i want to fully explore Perepiteia's principles so i start from scratch. that means finding out the accelaration effect a HV coil produces and its potential output measure not in a resistive load but captured in a capacitor etc.
All my experiments will be powered by a pulsed motor for efficiency, since it is claimed and proven that HV coil assist mechanical motion.
You readily realize that all this stuff takes time.From monday i will post pictures of my progress from this pathway.
@minde you are not alone man in this
Regards,
Baroutologos
Hi Baroutologos
Following your posts with great interest,as I'm sure many are.
Thanks
peter
Quote from: baroutologos on May 31, 2009, 02:37:51 AM
I do not speak so often because i have little time in my disposal so no fast progress is made.
Time is only one aspect. $$$ is the other.. both are needed for progress.
Before I got the rotor specs from I_ron I started to build my own rotor out of Aluminum. Not sure that it will work or if the rotor needs to be out of steel for the effect to take place. I machined my rotor to take Radio Shack rectangular ceramic magnets as I had a bunch from other replication projects and they would be cheap for other replicators if they worked. Last week I ordered some N45 round magnets off of EBay so I will need to modify the rotor to accept these as well that way I can try a couple ideas. Before Thane started using different cores I had gotten from EBay several MOT cores that later Thane would later proclaim are only good for doorstops. Bummer..
So far I have spend a good amount of $$$ and have very little to show for the trouble. These "research" projects have to be budgeted for me as I have a limited amount of $$$ coming in and about equal $$$ going out. ;D I suspect that is the case for others. The same problem goes for the time aspect of "research". Having to take care of my house (bills, maintenance,etc) and my elderly mothers house also takes time and money. Just last week my van I drive started puking antifreeze in the driveway after I parked it. This weekend a bit of time will be spend replacing the waterpump that is shoehorned in a tight place. Very little time will be spent on "research". Bummer again.
So pardon me if my "research" is slow. We all have different levels of resources available in the $$$ and time area. Sure I wish I did not have to work for a living or that I was retired with a steady income. I could devote more time and $$$ on "research" but at the moment it looks like my loto ticket did not win again. ::)
From looking at Thanes progress it would appear he had a "sponsor" so that helped him with the time and $$$ aspect. I wish I had a "sponsor" but that comes with a price to pay as you can tell from Thane being silent now.
So I guess what I am saying is that I will be making progress as time and $$$ permit but it will not be at the lightning speed that Thane was doing toward the end. I am sure that is the case for a lot of the replicators.
I will also being posting pictures of my rotor Monday as "proof" I am working on this.
Quote from: petersone on May 31, 2009, 02:46:39 AM
Hi Baroutologos
Following your posts with great interest,as I'm sure many are.
Thanks
peter
yes
I , also , am waiting for more data to begin a replication
daniel
Hello at all
For me talking and reaserching is easier than doing! :P By the way, my Work IN progress pulsed motor-perepiteia outline could be encapsulated in thoses photos.
As you can see, i am form Bedini's school of crafting, so goes the outline. (coil's cores, SSG pulsed motor, minimum metal usage etc)
Regards,
Baroutologos
Here is the start of my replication. Takes Radio Shack rectangular ceramic magnets or the new 1.5 inch ebay ones that hurt like heck when they pinch your fingers ;)
@i_ron
I fixed the @TK thing. Thanks.
Regarding what @minde4000 just posted, looking at those empty spools destined as the coil holder I imagine. My question is pretty simple.
If the core going inside that spool is there to initiate some level of coupling that will be transferred inside that huge bottom core, is it not better to have the best coil to core fit possible. If you had a square core inside that round spool center, there is no close coupling possible. Or is this part of the overall effect having a semi-core with semi-air-core coil?.
If the effect would be better with square core with square and tight fitting center spool, maybe there is a way of heating the spool center plastic core, putting the square core inside then reforming the plastic to fit snugly around the square core.
This core reminds of some stators I saw on ebay today, here is one of them. Could this be used in some way as a low cost startup for components.
@wattsup
I agree square coils would be better but for start I will go with what I have. These coils will have either silicon steel or tape square cores and will be attached to the toroidal core wich is too big also. My coil sizes cores and ring should closely match last thanes video setup. Rotor will be different. Once I will get this setup going (IF) then I will start modifying if finances will allow :)
Minde
@ Wattup
yes you say it correct. My green spool is Litzed wire (18awg) destined to become th pulse motor section.
@ ron
speachless..
@all
currently i am having some difficulty in seting up the motor section of my work at obtaining some 2000+ rmp with one core. (note cores are iron wires, laquered)
I would had not trouble if the motor was a radial one but... for safety's shake (magnets on the rim tend to fly) made it a axial more inefficient one.
Anyway, as i repeatedly said, i plan at exploring Peripeteia in a micro basis, few watts input, so as the effect of HV coils to become the prevailing factor in this setup.
If progress made, i will soon post it here.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Wow.
Awesome work everyone!!!!!! ;D
If only all threads could be this to-the-point and free of Nay-Sayers.
Good luck all.
One more thing that has haunt my mind.
Thane, has repeatedly stated that HV coils start from a point and onward to act more as capacitors than inductors.
It is well known the Tesla patent that describes how to enhance capacitative aspect of an inductor, i.e. wound a coil bifilar and then series connecting the wires.
I plan to make it as soon as have my motor up and running. But, i am also an impatient person. :) I urge anyone with a minimum setup ready to give a try to the concept and report findings.
regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: Harmonic33 on June 02, 2009, 06:08:35 AM
Wow.
Awesome work everyone!!!!!! ;D
If only all threads could be this to-the-point and free of Nay-Sayers.
Good luck all.
Thanks Harmonic,
All,
As was pointed out very early in the old list the motor T used was the worst possible choice to get meaningful results. I used it just to stay close to his conditions for replicating.
The RV on the other hand also has some short comings but as long as you are comparing ap ples and ap ples it works fine.
It is a constant speed device where one can read the draw in watts for different coil core combinations. As long as you don't get to great a difference in load then it behaves benignly.
Interesting point developed yesterday. Sort of a guess but with one inch magnets I was assuming a one inch (sq in) core for 60 Hz. So at 270 Hz I could discount that by at least four, so 1/4 of 1 is .25 sq inches, which is a core 1/2 by 1/2 inches.
(12.7 X 12.7 mm)
But here is the interesting point, it makes quite a difference which way the laminations lie.
With the test core at the six o'clock position and the laminations vertical...
The core drew 22.5 watts and the temperature rose 16C (in five minutes)
With the laminations horizontal....
The core drew 16.8 watts, and the temperature rise was 8C
So the magnet should pass along the width of the lamination, not across it.
Ron
Quote from: i_ron on June 03, 2009, 11:06:39 AM
But here is the interesting point, it makes quite a difference which way the lamination's lie.
With the test core at the six o'clock position and the lamination's vertical...
The core drew 22.5 watts and the temperature rose 16C (in five minutes)
With the lamination's horizontal....
The core drew 16.8 watts, and the temperature rise was 8C
Ron
Wow.. This is a very important find.. This means I might still be able to use my MOV transformers for initial research. I wonder if Thane ever noticed this effect.
I'm sure Thane knows about this effect, as eddy currents are a well understood phenomenon. When a magnet moves past any electrically conductive metal, it will induce electric eddy currents. These eddy currents behave much like the swirling rings of water that you get when dragging an oar through water. Unfortunately, eddy currents waste energy (by inducing opposing magnetic fields), so the trick is to minimize them. The usual solution is to have the core material in thinly insulated sheets (lamination) or particles (ferrite). With laminations, you can carry more magnetic flux, but orientation, and frequency become issues. Ferrites typically carry less flux, but work better at very high frequencies.
To experience the "drag" effect yourself, take a copper or aluminum pipe (angle brackets work too) and drop a small Neo magnet down through it. Notice how it slows down.
Yes that is true about the eddy currents but there is also another thing happening there that is probably worst then the EC.
As the coil itself gets more and more energized, it will itself produce the classical fields that extend outwards and all around it and onto the rotor holding the magnets.
The magnet will cause EC in the core, and it will also have its normal magnetic attraction to the core, but this is only when the magnet is in the core's immediate vicinity.
The coil however will extend its field further outwards and be effected and/or effect the magnets that are not even close to the core location. So you can generate drag even before the magnet arrives on the core point.
This was one of the main reasons I had recommended to @TH that the cores could use twisted multi-strands of insulated mag wire. Such a coil wind would eliminate (or greatly reduce) the outward fields and hence aid in lowering the total drag on the wheel.
Well, on a lighter note, I was driving on the highway to work yesterday and finally saw the rotor of my dreams. This would be perfect to show that the Perepetia can easily be scaled upwards. Check it out. lol
Quote from: wattsup on June 03, 2009, 04:32:28 PM
Well, on a lighter note, I was driving on the highway to work yesterday and finally saw the rotor of my dreams. This would be perfect to show that the Perepetia can easily be scaled upwards. Check it out. lol
If the bullwheels from your local ski-hill go "missing", I will know who to blame! ;D
Good info Ron thanks. T laminates were in parallel (more or less since ring was curved) and looks like more like by accident because of the way his L shape laminates were build and the way it fit on ring so you can clamp around it and he ever mentioned this important detail. I also heard that tightly wound single strand wire coil is more efficient than litz wire wound coil ??? High capacistance coil could be build by taking 4-7 strands of awg 30 wire and wind it all together (same way as a single wire) from lets say left to right then quickly returning back left and start another "layer". Coil will not look perfect but will have relatively high capacistance. Magnets and steel plate already home.
Got email back from magnetic metals. What they say that there is a catalog you can either view online or pdf download and pick one of their "standard" size assortiment or order your laminates with custom measurements wich will be laser cut and according to them costly.
P.S. Can we keep this topic with pics from replicators only at least? (no offence @wattsup) ;)
Cheers Minde
@ minde4000.
I think you have misread @wattsup's post.
He clearly states this is for his 'Scaled' up Perepiteia.
A SET of rotors of this size (no doubt being shipped from I_ron's workshop) would have cost a bit i reckon. not to mention the magnets!
This shows wattsup's commitment to the replication and I for one am happy to receive ultra-large novelty pictures.
No harm in humor. ;)
Quote from: Harmonic33 on June 04, 2009, 05:47:30 AM
@ minde4000.
I think you have misread @wattsup's post.
He clearly states this is for his 'Scaled' up Perepiteia.
A SET of rotors of this size (no doubt being shipped from I_ron's workshop) would have cost a bit i reckon. not to mention the magnets!
This shows wattsup's commitment to the replication and I for one am happy to receive ultra-large novelty pictures.
No harm in humor. ;)
Harmonics33..... are you reading what you posting? Wanna chat go elsewhere and exchange as many "novelty" pictures as you all want.
Quote from: minde4000 on June 04, 2009, 11:02:14 AM
Harmonics33..... are you reading what you posting? Wanna chat go elsewhere and exchange as many "novelty" pictures as you all want.
Minde... to me wattsup's rotors brought a laugh. Harmonics'
post pointing out that it was "on topic" brought a further chuckle. Happy to see people have fun. If you recall there was a lot of humor on the old list... to the point of absurdity and even meanness, so the above is well within the guidelines and is encouraged.
In english we have a saying: 'All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy'
Ron
@Harmonic33
No I will not be replicating that size any time soon. lol
@derricka
North of Montreal is the Laurentians with ski hills everywhere. Good catch on the wheel type.
@minde4000
It took me some major car manouvering two times to get that photo while driving. I just had to take it. Anyways, it was more in keeping with @TH's sense of humor then the obvious non-technical issues.
But I think what I said in the same post before the photo was more important and something to consider.
Ok, i put together my pulsed motor - perepiteia setup. Pulsed motor failed to fulfil its purpose rightly. It maxxed out 1100 rmp in a six all north face out double stacked magnets. That means some 110 Hz freq.
I used a 75 ohms, 29 Awg coil. I test it more than once in a wide range of rpms ranging from 400-1100.
My double verified findings:
In 400-900 rpm when the coil shorted, it would deccelarate the rotor dramatically. So generator action as expected. In the 1000+ range when sorted it marginally deccelarate the rotor. Just marginally if at all. BUT.
Here is a huge but... when i applied a load instead of the short the deccelaration effect is as dramatic as low rpms. :s
I cannot figure out why that happens. Why sorted does not deccelarate and when under load does deccelarate??????? finding double and triple cheched
It acts as if when i try to extact energy i must pay for that. Jeez..
ANyway, some measuraments...
coil maxes 98 volts ac. When shorted on DMM the meter recorded 0.14 amps flowing it. By using various loads, it can deliver at 1000 some 3-5 watts with decelaration (if loaded but not when shorted)
Those so far.
Suggestions pls.
regards,
Baroutologos
ps: pulse motor was a waste of effort energy and money. but for the 1100 rpm it uses some 35 watts with the coil unshorted, having an energy recycling in battery of 50-60%. (net consumption below 15 watts)
@Baruotologos
Speaking of DC pulsed drive motor. This one is from the days I was trying out fuellesengine motor. I have single spiral pancake multilayer 64ohm coil driving 12" 2 pole shaft build with six 1"x1"x4" N50 magnets stacked 3 for south and 3 for north poles. I can get it up to 2300 rpm using 740DC @ 30ma unloaded. If I put a 80 amp car alternator with 2:1 gear ratio rpm drops to 1000 and power consumption goes to around 400DC @ 400ma (using jacobs ladder power supply). Of course I had never built proper accurate timed commutator. Just a few copper rings with brass plates as contacts. You might need more driving coils and higher voltage. GL
Minde
Quote from: baroutologos on June 06, 2009, 04:06:53 PM
Ok, i put together my pulsed motor - perepiteia setup. Pulsed motor failed to fulfil its purpose rightly. It maxxed out 1100 rmp in a six all north face out double stacked magnets. That means some 110 Hz freq.
I used a 75 ohms, 29 Awg coil. I test it more than once in a wide range of rpms ranging from 400-1100.
My double verified findings:
In 400-900 rpm when the coil shorted, it would deccelarate the rotor dramatically. So generator action as expected. In the 1000+ range when sorted it marginally deccelarate the rotor. Just marginally if at all. BUT.
Here is a huge but... when i applied a load instead of the short the deccelaration effect is as dramatic as low rpms. :s
I cannot figure out why that happens. Why sorted does not deccelarate and when under load does deccelarate??????? finding double and triple cheched
It acts as if when i try to extact energy i must pay for that. Jeez..
ANyway, some measuraments...
coil maxes 98 volts ac. When shorted on DMM the meter recorded 0.14 amps flowing it. By using various loads, it can deliver at 1000 some 3-5 watts with decelaration (if loaded but not when shorted)
Those so far.
Suggestions pls.
regards,
Baroutologos
ps: pulse motor was a waste of effort energy and money. but for the 1100 rpm it uses some 35 watts with the coil unshorted, having an energy recycling in battery of 50-60%. (net consumption below 15 watts)
Baroutologos,
Nothing is ever a waste, it is all part of the learning experience.
So your results don't surprise me, I have seen much the same, both before and this time.
As I have said, it was quite dramatic to see Mr T's ryobi speed up as he reduced the load on it but I think there was more drama than fact.
OK, the first test with the laminated core and a 63 ohm coil... with the circuit open the draw was 15 watts. With the coil shorted the draw was only 4.42 watts.
However, with the Somaloy core the draw was only about 4 watts to start with and shorting the coil increased the draw!
Best run with the 63 ohm coil was 87 watts out for 53 watts draw...in AC, but when I rectified this to DC the actual numbers went down to 90% efficiency.
I plan to test some high ohm coils in the future but I have not come anyway near Mr T's last ou demo with just the high ohm coil doing the accelerating and providing output.
Much happier with the RV setup though so put the guards and wheels back on the ryobi and took it down to the pawn shop this morning... got a few dollars back on my investment, lol
Ron
Well, i've been messing with an old motor rotor. Basically it's the design that's going to be used on my OU device. Using an 18V Drill battery, (quarter charged) I'd put an estimation on 1000rpm+. That was only using one coil, the finished device will contain 4-8 of the same coils, only for more torque than anything else. My generator stage will create more than enough voltage needed to power the drive coils. Just have to get everything else crafted. Bob's yer uncle, fanny's yer aunt. :D
@Pageygeeza
Few pictures can say a thousand words... ;)
I'll try and get the vid posted on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLmiqp-53jw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLmiqp-53jw) Have fun
While Thane may not be posting here; he is posting:
http://www.sciscoop.com/thane-heins-perepiteia-explained-away.html
It is good to see he is still moving forward.
New video 'Conventional vs regenerative acceleration generator'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3JVjbXOssQ
Hello again,
You must excuse my initial frustration since the damned motor failed to my expectations. I_ron was right. I have many things to learn from that, in low-medium rpm region.
So I had some interesting experiments past weekend and want to share info and actual findings.
Not taking into consideration the input power, feeding the inefficient motor as much as possible, i managed to achieved some 1200+ rpm. And, yes there was accelaration. I repeat, I confirm accelaration, as Mr T claimed. I do not own yet a tachymeter but its easy to see it by the increasing voltage produced due to rmp increase.
My coil specs: 55mm height, 13mm core stuffed with wire rods (33) insulated each other, wound smoothly (with a drill) with 0.3mm enameled wire @ 72 ohms.
As before, 0.13 more or less current was oscillated in that coil (AC) at 105+ volts
Regards,
Baroutologos
First Impressions
......................................................................
Shorting means smoother action
.....................................................................
As mr T repeatedly said, the HV coil when shorted in the low rpm region (that's relative, for my case >900 rpm) showed a remarkable decelaration.
Between 900-1100 the shorted coil made no difference to rpm, whereas above 1100 it started slowly to accelarate. (not much though)
By the way, no matter what the rpm, (accelaration or deccelaration) when the coil remains unshorted infront the spinning rotor of neos there is signifficant vibration and noise in the whole structure.
When shorted, (accelarating or deccelarating) the vibration and cogging action just vanishes! It goes as if it is "lubricated", in a smooth fashion. Interesting effect...
HV coil shorted accelarates, if loaded then deccelarates!
....................................................................................
I reapetedly made the same experiment and observation. With two coils so far.
There is a peculiar property of the HV coil. When shorted and goes to accelaration mode, you can measure the current that oscillates in it. (mine had 0.13 Amps AC through it)
Notice i use the term "oscillating" current through it.
The bizzare thing is that, if you apply to the HV coil an signifficant load that restrain its oscillating current, (form 130 ma to 60 ma via an 1K ohm load) not only accelaration does vanishes, BUT, it start to act as a normal HC coil. (brake)
Notice that i did not reached those coclusions easily. But to my setup at least it more than obvious.
Bottom line, if I want to harvest any power from my HV coil, it must be done in such way as to impose as low as possible impedance to the oscillating current.
(Note the max outputted power that my HV coil can deliver in a 1kohm resistance and acts as a break is 3 watts, whereas if i connect it to charge a batt via a FWBR i can harvest almost 1watt with minimal if any deccelaration)
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: baroutologos on June 09, 2009, 06:05:43 AM
First Impressions
......................................................................
Shorting means smoother action
.....................................................................
As mr T repeatedly said, the HV coil when shorted in the low rpm region (that's relative, for my case >900 rpm) showed a remarkable decelaration.
Between 900-1100 the shorted coil made no difference to rpm, whereas above 1100 it started slowly to accelarate. (not much though)
By the way, no matter what the rpm, (accelaration or deccelaration) when the coil remains unshorted infront the spinning rotor of neos there is signifficant vibration and noise in the whole structure.
When shorted, (accelarating or deccelarating) the vibration and cogging action just vanishes! It goes as if it is "lubricated", in a smooth fashion. Interesting effect...
HV coil shorted accelarates, if loaded then deccelarates!
....................................................................................
I reapetedly made the same experiment and observation. With two coils so far.
There is a peculiar property of the HV coil. When shorted and goes to accelaration mode, you can measure the current that oscillates in it. (mine had 0.13 Amps AC through it)
Notice i use the term "oscillating" current through it.
The bizzare thing is that, if you apply to the HV coil an signifficant load that restrain its oscillating current, (form 130 ma to 60 ma via an 1K ohm load) not only accelaration does vanishes, BUT, it start to act as a normal HC coil. (brake)
Notice that i did not reached those coclusions easily. But to my setup at least it more than obvious.
Bottom line, if I want to harvest any power from my HV coil, it must be done in such way as to impose as low as possible impedance to the oscillating current.
(Note the max outputted power that my HV coil can deliver in a 1kohm resistance and acts as a break is 3 watts, whereas if i connect it to charge a batt via a FWBR i can harvest almost 1watt with minimal if any deccelaration)
Regards,
Baroutologos
Re read (if you have already) the experiment outlined on my website:
http://www.totallyamped.net/adams
Read page 10 for the experiment and read page 11 for the explanation of results.
Your observations regarding rpm and load values are already covered on page 10 using incremental steps in loading and showing in graphical form what the expected result will be.
Cheers
Experiments with a new HV coil
.................................................................
I decided to go up in HV coil turns so as to achieve accelaration from lower rpm. Oddly enough, in my setup it turned out that not to be the case.
I made a similar dimensions, same core, magnet gap etc HV coil wound with the same manner 0.3mm enameled wire at 113ohm this time.
I decided to mount it on the rotor next to the other working HV coil. (see previous posts for specs)
Findings
........................................................
With this one even though of greater impedance and higher generating voltage (120 vAC vs 100 vAC) the accelaration effect failed to manifest in the >1100 region.
From rough estimations and assuming that it has a similar behaviour to the other one, it should go above 1500rpm to do the trick, (my estimation). I was surpised to see that.
First conclusions
.......................................................
The HV effect (or Mr T. effect :P) it seems to be an superficial one that happens on the surface of the iron that gets-magnetized/demagnetized constantly and NOT be totally independent of the coil's impedance.
I now firmly believe (and i plan to prove it) that above a critical layer thickness over the iron core (that transfers the magnetic flux from magnet to windings) the surplus layers are just a burden, contributing at "loading the HV coil and diminishing the effect.
On the other hand, for that critical layer height that there is an active magnetization/demagnetization action zone you must have an "sufficient" number of turns to easily initiate the event. The more, the easier.(lower rpm initiation, higher voltage generation,but lower oscillating current and vice versa)
You can now understand what i suggest by observations only.
But, i need you people to verify or invalidate my findings that so as all to be on the same side.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: baroutologos on June 09, 2009, 06:30:27 AM
The HV effect (or Mr T. effect :P) it seems to be an superficial one that happens on the surface of the iron that gets-magnetized/demagnetized constantly and be independent of the coil's impedance.
I firm believe (and i plan to prove it) that above a critical layer thickness over the iron core (that transfers the magnetic flux from magnet to windings) the surplus layers are just a burden, contributing at "loading the HV coil and diminishing the effect.
On the other hand, for that critical layer height that there is an active magnetization/demagnetization action you must have an "sufficient" number of turns to easily initiate the event. The more, the easier.(lower rpm initiation, higher voltage generation, lower oscillating current and vice versa)
You can now understand what i suggest by observation.
But, i need you people to verify or invalidate that so as all to be on the same side.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Now your getting on the right track.
It is, however, still impedance dependant, but it is not the actual inductive reactance (impedance) that is the main factor, it is the resistance to inductive reactance (impedance)
ratio of the coil that is more important. The lower, the better.
You are correct in your observation, that beyond a certain number of layers, the effect becomes redundant.
Each new layer on a coil adds more resistance than inductance to the coil as a whole, because the circumference of the windings is larger and therefore each winding is longer and more resistive.
The ratio of resistance to inductance added by each new winding gets higher with each new layer.
Cheers
Quote from: hoptoad on June 09, 2009, 07:04:49 AM
Now your getting on the right track.
It is, however, still impedance dependant, but it is not the actual inductive reactance (impedance) that is the main factor, it is the resistance to inductive reactance (impedance) ratio of the coil that is more important.
Geez Hoaptod!
I saw my mistake and modify it, but you managed to reply before modification. Yes, indeed is impedance dependent (see corrected article) but only it matters inside the magnetization-demagnetization zone, as far as i can tell.
regards,
Baroutologos
An anomaly in contrast to Mr Heins experiments
.................................................................
My first working HV coil i modified it. On the circumference i added thick iron wire so as to make another iron "core".
On top of the wire i added some 3-4 ohms HC coil that is wound with 22AWG.
When rotor full speed (1100rpm) it outpus some 12vAC. When shorted no matter what rpm i obtain it slows down the system.
But, when the underlying HV coil is shorted then the HC coil output diminishes to 3-4 vac instead of boosting it. Thane managed by having an HV coil shorted to boost an overlying HC coil's output.
???
In my setupnot the case. Perhaps my poor topology is to be attributed for this.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: hoptoad on June 09, 2009, 06:13:51 AM
Re read (if you have already) the experiment outlined on my website:
http://www.totallyamped.net/adams
Read page 10 for the experiment and read page 11 for the explanation of results.
Your observations regarding rpm and load values are already covered on page 10 using incremental steps in loading and showing in graphical form what the expected result will be.
Cheers
Toad that hops,
Thanks for putting up your link here. For those that have not reviewed this information I must add that HT (hop toad) has had this information up well before TH (thane heins)
It is very germane to the discussion. That said I admit my attempt at replication of hoppies work (BT =before thane) was so dis similar that my results were also, lol I must try this one day and stick to the design more closely.
To understand Mr T's work, do this experiment first.
Welcome to the list Toad, I am sure you will receive a better response here than on the previous list.... ::)
Ron
Quote from: baroutologos on June 09, 2009, 08:15:19 AM
An anomaly in contrast to Mr Heins experiments
.................................................................
Regards,
Baroutologos
Baroutologos,
What I find amazing is the great job your pulse motor is doing for you! I like it.
Ron
Quote from: hoptoad on June 09, 2009, 07:04:49 AM
Now your getting on the right track.
It is, however, still impedance dependant, but it is not the actual inductive reactance (impedance) that is the main factor, it is the resistance to inductive reactance (impedance) ratio of the coil that is more important. The lower, the better.
THIS INFO IS BALONEY - DON'T LISTEN TO IT... :P
UNLESS YOU WANT SATURATED CORES.
THE IMPEDANCE HAS TO BE HIGH ENOUGH TO JUST "CHOKE" THE CURRENT AND CAUSE THE COIL TO ACT LIKE A CAPACITOR AND
NOT AN INDUCTOR SO THE INDUCTIVE REACTANCE HAS TO BE HIGHER NOT LOWER.
THE RESISTANCE OF THE COIL SHOULD NOT BE TOO HIGH OR YOU WON'T GET A GOOD STRONG MAGNETIC FIELD WHEN THE COIL CAPACITANCE DISCHARGES.
YOU CAN AND SHOULD INCREASE THE NUMBER OF MAGNETS ON YOUR ROTOR... THIS WILL INCREASE THE FREQUENCY AND INCREASE THE COIL IMPEDANCE AND DECREASE THE CURRENT ALL AT THE SAME TIME, THIS WILL GIVE YOU BETTER PERFORMANCE AT LOWER RPM RANGES.
QuoteYou are correct in your observation, that beyond a certain number of layers, the effect becomes redundant.
Each new layer on a coil adds more resistance than inductance to the coil as a whole, because the circumference of the windings is larger and therefore each winding is longer and more resistive.
THIS AS ALSO NOT RELEVANT HERE... :-*
THE TRICK TO MAKING THE MULTI-LAYER COIL WORK IS TO MAKE SURE THE OUTER CORE LINES UP WITH OPPOSITE POLE MAGNETS, I.E.
S OUTER COIL CORE
N INNER COIL CORE
S OUTER COIL CORE
THIS WAY WHEN THE INNER CORE DISCHARGES - IT DISCHARGES NORTH POLE FLUX INTO A CORE WHICH HAS A SOUTH POLE RECEDING.
A SOUTH POLE RECEDING = A NORTH POLE APPROACHING SO THE INNER DISCHARGING NORTH POLE FLUX
ADDS TO SOUTH POLE RECEDING (NORTH POLE APPROACHING) FLUX AND DOES NOT SUBTRACT AS YOU ARE CURRENTLY EXPERIENCING.
(BTW SUBTRACT IS THE WRONG WORD, IT OUGHT TO BE REDUCE THE NET CHANGE IN FLUX INSIDE THE COIL).
SO TRY ADDING MORE MAGNETS AND LINE UP THE CORES...
ALSO WHY USE HC COILS AT ALL?
WHY NOT JUST GO WITH INNER AND OUTER HV COILS AND STEP DOWN THE OUTPUT VIA A TRANSFORMER - THAT WAY IT'S ACCELERATION ALL ROUND. ;)
NOW WHEN THE OUTER HV COIL DISCHARGES IT INCREASES THE INNER HV COIL ACCELERATION AND VOLTAGE AND VICEY-VERSY - NOW YOU CAN EVENTUALLY STEP DOWN BOTH INNER AND OUTER COILS AND GET GREAT RESULTS!
ONE FINAL THING...
TRY VARYING THE LOADS FROM A DEAD SHORT, 1 OHM, 10 OHM, 100 OHM, 1000 OHM ETC.
THEN PLACE MULTIPLE LOADS ON IN PARALLEL - THE CLOSER THE LOADS ARE TO A DEAD SHORT I.E. INFINITE LOADS IN PARALLEL THE GREATER THE ACCELERATION.
AND ALL KIDDING ASIDE YOU GUYS - REALLY GREAT JOB HERE! :D
CHEERS AND BEST WISHES TO ALL!
T
Thanks Mr Heins for your intervention here.
We thought you were gone for good. In the good sense of course :P
I am happy to see you back.
By the way, as you know, learning is a difficult and long procedure. I knew for sure that 12 magnets were better than 6, but i wanted to investigate the effect from scratch.
So, what i learnt so far is that in order to extract some energy out of the
HV coils you must combine:
core material
magnets number-frequency-topology, field strength, magnetic flux manipulation
reactance (impedance+resistance balance)
Current from coils should go as much un-restrained as possible.
Restraining it, not only nulls accelaration but i found HV coil impedes the system as a normal HC coil. (need idepedent verification for that)
voltage produced & oscillating current considerations (am I need high voltage lower current or
the opposite?)
Its a riddle, is not it?
Anyway, i plan to procede slowly and post results after double check them.
Regards,
Baroutologos
I am still having problems in finding the right size E cores. Need 4.1" lenght or something close to that to match lets say NSN (3 consecutive magnets) but nobody seem to have this large. Any links or directions would be appreciated.
Thanks
Regrds Minde
Good morning from Athens (Greece) :D
Its time slowly slowly to get "pro".
...........................................................
Although i am happy at using primitive laquered soft iron wires as cores, i see there is little future in them.
Can anyone suggest any decent e-store that ships internationally so as to get laminated silicon-steel fingers? (I laminations)
Are there special bobins that can fit those I fingers? (i need the wire to be as close as i can to the iron core)
Regards,
Baroutologos
(sorry for double post)
Right, this is weird. I've assembled a makeshift motor: Even though the magnets and coils are facing the same direction I would have thought I would be generating DC when I take the drive power off, but I'm generating AC. From what I can see, the coils are pushing power in both directions.
I'm now confused
Impedance Contribution to Mr. T. effect.
............................................................
I was analysing the collected data so far from my noobish experiment. Note that concrete findings could not be enstablised but are good indicators for experiementing orientation.
So, topic is Impedance here. How much does affect the HV coils accelaration threshold?
We all know that with few turns of wire say 10 ( ;D) over a given core, one should never hope to achieve accelaration, unless rotor speed reaches astronomical speeds. So impedance is a key part of the process. Hence, the coil should have "enough turns" so as the mr T phainomenon to manifest easily.
But, in real life setups, impedance comes with resistance. As I discussed in previous replies i have been experimenting with 2 coils. Using software "coil maestro" i calculated coils impedances. By no means those are the actual values since i use iron wires with too much spacing between them. But, it is a good indicator of the actual coil's impedances.
restating
...........
coil 1: height 55mm, core opening 13mm, R = 75 ohms (of 0.3mm wire), 8mm layer thickness
At 110 Hz (1100 rotor speed) accellarates and produces 105+vAC and 0.13A current at short. Impedance around 100mH (indication)
coil 2: same phisical dimensions, R = 110+ ohms same wire, 11mm layer thickness. At 110 Hz it deccellarates while producing 120+Vac and 0.085A current at short. Impedance around 200mH (indication)
Why is that?
....................................................
Why the coil B deccellarates at 110 Hz whereas it must accellarate from, say, 90 Hz? Note that i do not talk about accellaration's power. I talk about even the manifestation of accellaration itself.
My conclusions
...................................................
Impedance is necessary, but it must be carefully balanced to the resistance produced. Because not only a higher impedance with a consequent higher resistance will give poorer accelaration, but, but maybe won't give accellaration at all and break the system.
From results so far I think Hoaptod has right in his claims. It is the impedance to resistance ratio that makes the difference in power generation terms.
regards,
Baroutologos
Right, still can't figure it out, but.....
Using 5 of my DIY coils and the 18v Drill battery, it's getting a trifle dangerous. As the high speed is making the magnets pop out. I really need to find the rpm of that blasted thing.
A diversity of physical configurations can manifest the acceleration effect.
Heres one of many other differing designs with the same effect, though the configuration is markedly different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_LsOyEchrA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LfjLwLAJUY&feature=related
Note that in his second experiment he is stepping up the output voltage, not stepping down.
Cheers
@Baroutologos
If you need bobbin cores check out a nice selection at www.cosmocorp.com They say minimum order is 20 pieces for $5 each.
Minde
Quote from: Pageygeeza on June 10, 2009, 05:31:15 AM
Right, this is weird. I've assembled a makeshift motor: Even though the magnets and coils are facing the same direction I would have thought I would be generating DC when I take the drive power off, but I'm generating AC. From what I can see, the coils are pushing power in both directions.
I'm now confused
Keep in mind that the induced (generated) voltage is directly related to the direction of movement. When the magnet is approaching the coil/core the voltage is of one polarity...when the coil/core is directly over the magnet there is zero induced voltage... when the coil/core is receding,(leaving) the voltage is of the opposite polarity (to the approach).
Ron
Thanks for the clarification.
This is the motor so far: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X8rlB5kOOI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X8rlB5kOOI)
I have the multimeter connected to the start and end of the coil series and when I apply the 18v battery it reads 10-11v. When I release the battery it then reads 5v. Couldn't tell you if it's any good or not. But I wouldn't be surprised if I could get it to over 2000rpm on the 18v, I keep chickening out because I think the magnets'll fly out. And trust me, at that speed I don't think i'd like to hang around if they do shoot out.
can anybody explain (or refer me to previous posts regarding) HC COILS and INNER AND OUTER HV COILS
Quote from: Pageygeeza on June 10, 2009, 12:09:08 PM
This is the motor so far: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X8rlB5kOOI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X8rlB5kOOI)
Hey, runs pretty good! But yes, always the danger that the magnets will fly out. One reason why I prefer axial designs,
Ron
Thanks Minde for the Bobbin info.
Now i need to procure, some I laminations with the following characteristics.
High magnetic flux permeatability & low eddie-hysteresis losses.
As mr T's laminated "fingers"
Anyone knows any shop on line?
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps: I bet I_ron knows :P
Hey, thanks i_Ron. :D
Quote from: i_ron on June 10, 2009, 10:31:24 AM
when the coil/core is directly over the magnet there is zero induced voltage...
Ron
WHEN THE COIL/CORE IS DIRECTLY OVER THE MAGNET THE INDUCED VOLTAGE IS
MAXIMUM NOT ZERO.AS THE COIL/CORE MOVES AWAY FROM THE MAGNET THE POLARITY CHANGES AND THE VOLTAGE BEGINS TO FALL TOWARDS ZERO.
THE INDUCED VOLTAGE DROPS TO ZERO WHEN THE COIL/CORE IS EXACTLY HALF WAY BETWEEN THE NEXT MAGNET ON THE ROTOR.
IF THE NEXT MAGNET ON THE ROTOR IS AN OPPOSITE POLE THEN THE INDUCED VOLTAGE WILL PROCEED ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE Y AXIS ZERO POINT.
IF THE NEXT MAGNET ON THE ROTOR IS THE SAME POLARITY THEN THE INDUCED VOLTAGE WILL REMAIN ON ONE SIDE OF THE Y AXIS I.E. DC.
A MONO-POLE ROTOR WILL PRODUCE A DC "SINE WAVE" BUT IT IS ONLY ONE ONE SIDE OF THE SINE WAVE AXIS.
I AM PUTTING THIS HERE SO PEOPLE WILL INDERSTAND HOW THE HV COIL CAUSES ACCELERATION.AT TOP DEAD CENTRE I.E. "when the coil/core is directly over the magnet" THE MAGNET IS NEITHER APPROACHING NOR RECEDING FROM THE COIL/CORE AND THE INDUCED VOLTAGE IN THE COIL IS MAXIMUM.
IT IS ONLY
WHEN THE MAGNET IS APPROACHING OR RECEDING AWAY FROM THE COIL/CORE THAT THERE IS IMPEDANCE (AC RESISTANCE) IN THE COIL AND MINIMAL CURRENT FLOW.
AT TDC THE INDUCTIVE REACTANCE IS ZERO (COIL'S FREQUENCY DEPENDANT AC RESISTANCE) AND THE COIL'S IMPEDANCE (INDUCTIVE REACTANCE + DC RESISTANCE) TO CURRENT FLOW DROPS TO THE DC RESISTANCE OF THE COIL.
SO NOW AT TDC WHEN THE INDUCED VOLTAGE IS MAXIMUM (NOT ZERO) AND THE COIL'S IMPEDANCE IS MINIMAL - MAXIMUM CURRENT CAN FLOW AND PRODUCE THE MAXIMUM DELAYED MAGNETIC FIELD REQUIRED TO PUSH THE NOW REDEEDING MAGNET AWAY WITH ADDITIONAL FORCE.SO IT SHOULD BE CLEAR THAT IF THE COIL'S INDUCED VOLTAGE AT TDC WAS ZERO THERE WOULD BE NO CURRENT AND NO MAGNETIC FIELD PRODUCTION AND NO ROTOR ACCELERATION.
T
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 11, 2009, 07:51:40 AM
WHEN THE COIL/CORE IS DIRECTLY OVER THE MAGNET THE INDUCED VOLTAGE IS MAXIMUM NOT ZERO.
T
LOL .......
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/worksheets/acgen.html
Go and read question 7 then Click on Reveal Answer.
Particularly read the notes in the answer section.
LOL ... I'm with I_Ron on this one.
I am with mr T. regarding voltage and magnet possitioning, although i do not agree fully. I have some experience with same pollar generators (as my current setup is) and they create a full sine wave of less amptitude than alternating pole setup. (Note that between magnets, no matter what the spacing is there is a scallar opposite pole of less power)
Anyway, at TDC voltage is not zero.
Could not be zero.
If voltage was zero then Peripeteia (as well as many other devices) could never work, since impedance has choked current and afterwards, no voltage exists to push electrons in the desired direction.
So following this reasoning we can conclude safely there is voltage at TDC.
Regards,
Baroutologos
@hoptoad
I agree with this as AC but not DC. I will take Thanes stance on this for my post because but either way is understandable.
@TH
Thanks or breaking down the mag passage into fragments showing TDC = Maximum. This is just reinforcing what I posting earlier.
If the TDC is maximum, we can agree that you will never get any more then the maximum, so the high end of the wave is fixed and can only play on frequency. What can be played with is how low you can go to get as close to the Zero Point, hence producing the greatest sweep of extremes possible.
One side remark, when the magnets are placed in a tight circle, I have found that even though one would suppose that each magnet keeps its individual magnetic strength, there is a phenomenon we have seen that I have called "crowning" of the magnets where all the magnets converge into one circular field going all the way to the center of the rotor wheel. As if each magnet is now spread out further in a more homogeneous field. But if you have a set magnetic strength and you spread this strength out further, one can surmise that the actual direct applied magnetic strength will be lower.
But here is my main point, since the magnets are placed one immediately beside the other, there is no possibility of actually getting close to the zero point, since as one magnet is half off the core, the other magnet is already on the just cleared half. This means no zero possible. You are probably sweeping between maximum being 100% and 40%-50% at best. But no where near 0%.
For the sweep to reach its greatest spread, the distance between each magnet would have to be at least equal to the coils core diameter. Even then it would not be 0% because the magnets field of influence goes further out then the magnet itself, but for clarity sake, let's say such an influence is minimal.
Example: If you had two rotors with let's say 8 or 10 magnets on each with good spacing in between and the coils are placed so that the magnet passage over two coils is one side, other side in succession, each side would have maximum zeroing potential while still placing the same amount of total magnets across the same total number of coils. Just thinking out load.
***************************
On another note, I read that thread that someone posted of that other forum. Seems like you were getting clobbered by that one member. Life is definitely not easy when you are in inventor mode, being treated like that.
I think your main problem is one of marketing, which I am very familiar with. How do you sell this idea. How do you explain this idea in the simplest and most understandable way that even a 7 year old child could understand it. That's what you need to convey.
Maybe consider that Perepetia should not be considered a free energy device but it is a way of increasing motor efficiency to a point that free energy "could" be more possible. Not that it is, but could be a possible step towards OU. If you took this stance, then others will stop attacking you and look at this as a potential step towards an OU device and this will mean others can then participate in this research with a view of advancing it further.
Otherwise you will always have a difficult time explaining this when guys see 34 watts output and 240 watts input, the correlation of this being non OU is too flagrant and will be difficult to explain.
If you concentrate on the fact that if this was solely a magnet to coil issue, that motor was consuming 600 watts and never had enough power to produce even 1 watt, but with the Perepetia method, it is producing a good 34 watts, this is where you need to concentrate your explanations.
Just thinking out load again.
Quote from: baroutologos on June 11, 2009, 09:11:31 AM
I am with mr T. regarding voltage and magnet possitioning, although i do not agree fully. I have some experience with same pollar generators (as my current setup is) and they create a full sine wave of less amptitude than alternating pole setup. (Note that between magnets, no matter what the spacing is there is a scallar opposite pole of less power)
Anyway, at TDC voltage is not zero.
Could not be zero.
If voltage was zero then Peripeteia (as well as many other devices) could never work, since impedance has choked current and afterwards, no voltage exists to push electrons in the desired direction.
So following this reasoning we can conclude safely there is voltage at TDC.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Zero is not the same as nought. In AC it is the relative point between negative and positive voltage vectors, the
sum of which is zero volts.
I'll stick with Faraday LOL ..... oh and I_ron :D Cheers
Quote from: hoptoad on June 11, 2009, 09:56:25 AM
Zero is not the same as nought. In AC it is the relative point between negative and positive voltage vectors, the sum of which is zero volts.
I'll stick with Faraday LOL ..... oh and I_ron :D Cheers
I am aghast!!! Such confusion over over such a basic fact of life.
And so simple to prove. Take one magnet and one coil with a core (bolt, nails, laminations, what ever...) con nect your old ana log volt meter to the coil, OK
Now take the magnet and sit it on top of the coil. Maximum flux through the coil, right? Zero volts (and zero am ps,lol) on the meter.
Now pick the magnet off and watch the meter as your
approach the coil... the meter will swing up (with the right pole) and as you go over TDC will reverse direction and as you
recede with the magnet will try to swing down.
As in the answer to #7..."A rotor lined up with the stator poles would result in maximum flux (φ) through those poles, but not maximum rate-of-flux-change over time ([(dφ)/dt])."
the maximum induced voltage and polarity,has to do with speed and direction of flux change. Now just go and do the experiment and think about what you see...
Thanks Hoptoad!
Ron
Now I really didn't expect this from such a simple question. lol
I'm inclined to agree with i_Ron anyway. Taking things to their most simplistic levels, it make more logical sense. The way I look at is like this: A coil of wire doesn't have a magnetic flux until power is applied, so to use it in a generator it is inert. So to pass a north facing magnet across it from one side the current will flow all the way around in one direction, as the magnet hits the center it's not passing over any wire, so nothing is created. Then it moves across the other side, as it moves away thus making the current flow in the opposite direction.
Ramming clever sounding words into the mix just confuses things. Personally, I think this is probably the most simplistic way of looking at it.
Just my 2 pennies worth. ;)
"The induced electromotive force or EMF in any closed circuit is equal to the time rate of change of the magnetic flux through the circuit."
So if the time rate of change of the flux is zero, the induced voltage is zero.
And at TDC of a magnetic piston, the magnet is not moving, therefore the time rate of change of its flux in the wire (or coil) is zero. Therefore the induced voltage is zero.
This is Faraday's law of induction, perhaps the oldest EXPERIMENTALLY VERIFIED law of electromagnetism there is.
It is also the third of Maxwell's Equations: the Faraday-Maxwell Equation, which states that the curl of E is equal to the negative time rate of change of the B field.
Hi Pageygeeza
I thing I have to agree with you,anything going in one direction,then going in the opposite direction,must,at some point,between the two states, be stationary,unless I am missing something.
peter
To me, Electromagnetics is probably one of the most easiest to understand if broken down to a simple level. I can't understand why it has to be made complicated, it's not, imo.
Quote from: TinselKoala on June 11, 2009, 12:08:56 PM
This is Faraday's law of induction, perhaps the oldest EXPERIMENTALLY VERIFIED law of electromagnetism there is.
Exactly! What some people seem to have missed is that the polarity of the induced voltage is always dependent on the
direction of motion as is attested to by Fleming's Right Hand Rule.
So it is, or should be, a simple observation that in a generator
the magnet can never always approach the coil. IF the magnet always approached the coil then you could have a DC output. But in real life the approach is always 50% which causes one polarity... then a retreat of 50%, which cause the opposite polarity,... with a neutral or zero induction at the point of direction change.
Didn't mean to run with your post TK, but was sort of answering Papeygeeza and petersone at the same time, lol
Ron
Well what I see is when a magnet is approaching a coil, the field 'delivered' to the coil becomes more and more until tdc is reached and amusing we have a steady motion and are operating below saturation you will see a voltage increase until tdc and when the magnet goes past that tdc the field change is happening again, but in reverse so, this time from high to increasingly low.
It is possible to make the magnet constantly move towards the coil. :)
Right guys, i'm off for a walk to get rid of this head-ache. :P
Quote from: Nali2001 on June 11, 2009, 01:45:16 PM
Well what I see is when a magnet is approaching a coil, the field 'delivered' to the coil becomes more and more until tdc is reached and amusing we have a steady motion and are operating below saturation you will see a voltage increase until tdc and when the magnet goes past that tdc the field change is happening again, but in reverse so, this time from high to increasingly low.
A single conductor is shown thus when passing through a steady field. But the point in question here is that of a magnet passing over a coil.
You can see the action in this animation, unfortunately it depicts a magnet entering into a coil but notice the peak in one direction then the fall to zero as the magnet stops... well in a coil with the magnet passing over the coil the same thing happens. The magnet generates a peak on approach and as the motion, from the point of view of the coil, changes then a zero induction occurs, then a peak as the magnet recedes.
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electromag/java/faraday2/
Ron
@i_Ron: Dude, do we have to draw them pictures? ;)
Quote from: i_ron on June 11, 2009, 02:58:56 PM
But the point in question here is that of a magnet passing over a coil.
Ron
Steven, Thane, and others, the great stumbling block with the voltage (peak of the sine wave) rising up at TDC is you are only accounting for one half of the sine. Your theory must have a south pole coming along next to generate the opposite half of the sine.
But the actual fact, and you can easily do this experiment, just one pole is generating BOTH halves of the sine wave.
Here is a little demo for you... I have taken an old rotor and put one magnet on it. I have spun it up in the lathe, as it doesn't mind being a little out of balance. You can see that one north pole in this case generates both halves of the sine!
I am afraid your theory doesn't account for this.
Observation:A single pole generates both sides of the sine wave.
Conclusions: The positive going pulse in this case is generated as the magnet enters the coil and ramps down to zero at TDC. On leaving the coil a negative going pulse is generated.
Ron
Pageygeeza, a picture is worth a thousand words!
If anyone here is confused, let me shed some light on the situation.
For a purely inductive coil, Tinsel Koala and iRon are correct. (Voltage is zero at top dead center)
Thane is claiming voltage is not zero. This is because Thane's high voltage coils have a significant capacitive component, due to the larger number of turns. As the magnet approaches the coil, this capacitance is charging up, so at top dead center, there will be a voltage. The true circuit here, is much more like a LC circuit (or more accurately, RLC circuit), where voltage and current are no longer in phase (power factor).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor
I think you people are missing Thane's main point:
Thane quotes:
“THE IMPEDANCE HAS TO BE HIGH ENOUGH TO JUST "CHOKE" THE CURRENT AND CAUSE THE COIL TO ACT LIKE A CAPACITOR AND NOT AN INDUCTOR SO THE INDUCTIVE REACTANCE HAS TO BE HIGHER NOT LOWER.
THE RESISTANCE OF THE COIL SHOULD NOT BE TOO HIGH OR YOU WON'T GET A GOOD STRONG MAGNETIC FIELD WHEN THE COIL CAPACITANCE DISCHARGES.â€
“I AM PUTTING THIS HERE SO PEOPLE WILL INDERSTAND HOW THE HV COIL CAUSES ACCELERATION.
AT TOP DEAD CENTRE I.E. "when the coil/core is directly over the magnet" THE MAGNET IS NEITHER APPROACHING NOR RECEDING FROM THE COIL/CORE AND THE INDUCED VOLTAGE IN THE COIL IS MAXIMUM.
IT IS ONLY WHEN THE MAGNET IS APPROACHING OR RECEDING AWAY FROM THE COIL/CORE THAT THERE IS IMPEDANCE (AC RESISTANCE) IN THE COIL AND MINIMAL CURRENT FLOW.
AT TDC THE INDUCTIVE REACTANCE IS ZERO (COIL'S FREQUENCY DEPENDANT AC RESISTANCE) AND THE COIL'S IMPEDANCE (INDUCTIVE REACTANCE + DC RESISTANCE) TO CURRENT FLOW DROPS TO THE DC RESISTANCE OF THE COIL.
SO NOW AT TDC WHEN THE INDUCED VOLTAGE IS MAXIMUM (NOT ZERO) AND THE COIL'S IMPEDANCE IS MINIMAL - MAXIMUM CURRENT CAN FLOW AND PRODUCE THE MAXIMUM DELAYED MAGNETIC FIELD REQUIRED TO PUSH THE NOW REDEEDING MAGNET AWAY WITH ADDITIONAL FORCE.â€
From Wiki under parasitic capacitance:
For example, an inductor often acts as though it includes a parallel capacitor, because of its closely spaced windings. When a potential difference exists across the coil, wires lying adjacent to each other at different potentials are affected by each other's electric field. They act like the plates of a capacitor, and store charge. Any change in the voltage across the coil requires extra current to charge and discharge these small 'capacitors'. When the voltage doesn't change very quickly, as in low frequency circuits, the extra current is usually negligible, but when the voltage is changing quickly the extra current is large and can dominate the operation of the circuit.
Thane is maximizing the parasitic capacitance and it is discharging at TDC to produce the acceleration.
Regards Larry,
PS: just noticed that derricka beat me to it, but the parasitic capacitance observation is important.
Ok then i_Ron. It's far from accurate, but you get the idea.
Ooops, I got my clockwise and anti-clockwise mixed up. :S
Quote from: derricka on June 11, 2009, 04:40:00 PM
If anyone here is confused, let me shed some light on the situation.
For a purely inductive coil, Tinsel Koala and iRon are correct. (Voltage is zero at top dead center)
Thane is claiming voltage is not zero. This is because Thane's high voltage coils have a significant capacitive component, due to the larger number of turns. As the magnet approaches the coil, this capacitance is charging up, so at top dead center, there will be a voltage. The true circuit here, is much more like a LC circuit (or more accurately, RLC circuit), where voltage and current are no longer in phase (power factor).
snip
Derricka and Larry,
Yes I am open to this... but it has to be explained against the actual coil operation. There are two generated peaks, one positive and one negative. To just focus on the one peak that might be delayed until TDC and not account for what is happening to the other peak is imprecise.
What my contention with Steven and Thane was in their view there was only one major peak at TDC. My concern with Thane's presentations are that he has only ever stated DC coil resistance, never Henries, never A B scope pictures of HV coils with HC coils showing any phase delays. It takes major amounts of capacitance to make an LC circuit yet no numbers for this supposed capacitance have ever been shown.
Ron
But to my original question, I think Occam's Razor applies to the answer.
Derricka and Larry,
I was wondering more along the iron theme. What about the propagation delay of the flux in iron at these speeds?
The reason being, if you missed my earlier post, when I used Somaloy there was no core loss reduction...rather an increase in draw with the coil shorted.
QuoteOK, the first test with the laminated core and a 63 ohm coil... with the circuit open the draw was 15 watts. With the coil shorted the draw was only 4.42 watts.
However, with the Somaloy core the draw was only about 4 watts to start with and shorting the coil increased the draw! Quote
This test should indicate that it is iron that is required, not capacitance.
So what I am saying is, if the flux buildup in the core is delayed then so also will the voltage buildup in the coil… in respect to the magnets position.
Ron
Derricka and Larry,
I was wondering more along the iron theme. What about the propagation delay of the flux in iron at these speeds?
The reason being, if you missed my earlier post, when I used Somaloy there was no core loss reduction...rather an increase in draw with the coil shorted.
This test should indicate that it is iron that is required, not capacitance.
So what I am saying is, if the flux buildup in the core is delayed then so also will the voltage buildup in the coil… in respect to the magnets position.
Ron
QuoteOK, the first test with the laminated core and a 63 ohm coil... with the circuit open the draw was 15 watts. With the coil shorted the draw was only 4.42 watts.
However, with the Somaloy core the draw was only about 4 watts to start with and shorting the coil increased the draw!
Quote
Quote from: i_ron on June 11, 2009, 06:03:35 PM
Derricka and Larry,
I was wondering more along the iron theme. What about the propagation delay of the flux in iron at these speeds?
The reason being, if you missed my earlier post, when I used Somaloy there was no core loss reduction...rather an increase in draw with the coil shorted.
OK, the first test with the laminated core and a 63 ohm coil... with the circuit open the draw was 15 watts. With the coil shorted the draw was only 4.42 watts.
However, with the Somaloy core the draw was only about 4 watts to start with and shorting the coil increased the draw!
This test should indicate that it is iron that is required, not capacitance.
So what I am saying is, if the flux buildup in the core is delayed then so also will the voltage buildup in the coil… in respect to the magnets position.
Ron
Interesting you should mention the flux buildup delay. I once placed steel ball bearings on very tiny Neo magnets, and noticed the delay in repulsion, of another rapidly approaching Neo magnet. Like Thanes rotor, it exhibited a "critical speed" effect. I think the iron has an effect on magnetic flux change, similar to a capacitors effect on voltage change. Still, this is no guarantee of a free energy lunch. I agree, that to sort out the different effects in Thane's coils, more types of measurements need to be taken. If we can't convince Thane to make the extra measurements (for his own good), all we can do is our own research.
Quote from: derricka on June 11, 2009, 04:40:00 PM
If anyone here is confused, let me shed some light on the situation.
For a purely inductive coil, Tinsel Koala and iRon are correct. (Voltage is zero at top dead center)
Thane is claiming voltage is not zero. This is because Thane's high voltage coils have a significant capacitive component, due to the larger number of turns.
Derricka and Larry,
I don't think there can be any misunderstanding of what Thane said...which was...
QuoteWHEN THE COIL/CORE IS DIRECTLY OVER THE MAGNET THE INDUCED VOLTAGE IS MAXIMUM NOT ZERO.
AS THE COIL/CORE MOVES AWAY FROM THE MAGNET THE POLARITY CHANGES AND THE VOLTAGE BEGINS TO FALL TOWARDS ZERO.
THE INDUCED VOLTAGE DROPS TO ZERO WHEN THE COIL/CORE IS EXACTLY HALF WAY BETWEEN THE NEXT MAGNET ON THE ROTOR.
IF THE NEXT MAGNET ON THE ROTOR IS AN OPPOSITE POLE THEN THE INDUCED VOLTAGE WILL PROCEED ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE Y AXIS ZERO POINT.
IF THE NEXT MAGNET ON THE ROTOR IS THE SAME POLARITY THEN THE INDUCED VOLTAGE WILL REMAIN ON ONE SIDE OF THE Y AXIS I.E. DC.
A MONO-POLE ROTOR WILL PRODUCE A DC "SINE WAVE" BUT IT IS ONLY ONE ONE SIDE OF THE SINE WAVE AXIS.
This is not correct as I have shown. Therefore any theory based on this incorrect assumption would be false.
Ron
Quote from: LarryC on June 11, 2009, 04:50:26 PM
I think you people are missing Thane's main point:
From Wiki under parasitic capacitance:
For example, an inductor often acts as though it includes a parallel capacitor, because of its closely spaced windings. When a potential difference exists across the coil, wires lying adjacent to each other at different potentials are affected by each other's electric field. They act like the plates of a capacitor, and store charge. Any change in the voltage across the coil requires extra current to charge and discharge these small 'capacitors'. When the voltage doesn't change very quickly, as in low frequency circuits, the extra current is usually negligible, but when the voltage is changing quickly the extra current is large and can dominate the operation of the circuit.
Thane is maximizing the parasitic capacitance and it is discharging at TDC to produce the acceleration.
Regards Larry,
PS: just noticed that derricka beat me to it, but the parasitic capacitance observation is important.
Larry
SEE and DERRIKA
inmyheadlights,
I COULD JUST KISS YOU GUYS!!!
(assuming you are guys)
ANY FAILURE TO GET
THIS POINT ACROSS UP TO THIS POINT HAS BEEN MY FAILURE - SO THANK YOU FOR FINALLY GETTING IT - YOU MADE MY FREAKING DAY!
THANKS
T
PS
I_WRONG AND HARD_TOE,
IF YOUR PRIDE WILL ALLOW YOU TO WIPE SOME OF THAT EGG OFF YOUR FACES YOU MIGHT SEE THE LIGHT ALSO.
"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything."
- George Bernard Shaw
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 11, 2009, 08:39:43 PM
LarrySEE and DERRIKA,
ANY FAILURE TO GET THIS POINT ACROSS UP TO THIS POINT HAS BEEN MY FAILURE - SO THANK YOU FOR FINALLY GETTING IT - YOU MADE MY FREAKING DAY!
THANKS
T
Thane, the bottom gif is correct... for a loop in a magnetic field... with a commutator.
But when you go to a coil/core and passing magnet then what I have shown is correct.
Do the testThe pulse builds up on approach and declines to zero at TDC, then the pulse (sine) builds negative.
I clearly show this with one magnet and one coil. That is a sine wave in the JPG, no hocus pocus, no mylow, just a fact of life. Do the test and you can see that this is true. It has to be. It can be nothing else. When the magnet approaches the coil/core the the sine is one way... when the magnet leaves the coil/core the sine is the opposite.
Ron
I agree, the gif image clearly says generator, as opposed to alternator.
The commutator effectively takes the negative right hand portion of iRons oscilloscope
trace, and flips it upward, to show the rectified sinewave output, shown in Thane's image.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commutator_(electric)
Quote from: derricka on June 11, 2009, 09:35:33 PM
I agree, the gif image clearly says generator, as opposed to alternator.
The commutator effectively takes the negative right hand portion of iRons oscilloscope
trace, and flips it upward, to show the rectified sinewave output, shown in Thane's image.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commutator_(electric)
I am not making this up you know... it is just that there is all kinds of info on "conventional" generators but little on pulse coil generation... until you look with the proper criteria...
"Now we come to an important feature of a coil when it is used as a SENSOR.
When a magnet passes a coil (this includes the action of moving towards or away from a coil), a voltage is generated in the turns in the form of a
sinewave.The same type of waveform is produced if the magnet passes the end of the coil, into and out of the end of the coil or if the magnet passes through the centre.
The first is the voltage produced by the coil as it passes the end of the coil.
When the magnet is directly opposite the end of the coil, the change in magnetic flux is zero and thus the voltage produced by the coil is
zero. The second point is the change in voltage produced by the coil.
The output voltage changes from positive to negative during the very small portion of excursion when the magnet moves from a forward to reverse direction as seen by the end of the coil."
http://talkingelectronics.com/projects/Inductor/Inductor-3.html
Ron
Quote from: i_ron on June 11, 2009, 09:49:52 PM
I am not making this up you know... it is just that there is all kinds of info on "conventional" generators but little on pulse coil generation... until you look with the proper criteria...
"Now we come to an important feature of a coil when it is used as a SENSOR.
When a magnet passes a coil (this includes the action of moving towards or away from a coil), a voltage is generated in the turns in the form of a sinewave.
The same type of waveform is produced if the magnet passes the end of the coil, into and out of the end of the coil or if the magnet passes through the centre.
The first is the voltage produced by the coil as it passes the end of the coil.
When the magnet is directly opposite the end of the coil, the change in magnetic flux is zero and thus the voltage produced by the coil is zero.
The second point is the change in voltage produced by the coil. The output voltage changes from positive to negative during the very small portion of excursion when the magnet moves from a forward to reverse direction as seen by the end of the coil."
http://talkingelectronics.com/projects/Inductor/Inductor-3.html
Ron
Yep, and inspection of the Faraday law of induction or the Maxwell-Faraday vector equation, shows that as the field is increasing (magnet pole approaching coil) the polarity of the induced voltage is one way, and as the magnet comes to TDC (point of closest approach) the induced voltage is zero, and as the magnet recedes from the coil the polarity is now opposite. Just like the oscilloscope trace shows from i_ron's experiment. Just imagine how the flux lines look at a loop of the coil. Constant=zero voltage. Increasing lines=voltage in one polarity. Decreasing lines=voltage the other polarity.
But the point about the phase of the voltage in the circuit being affected by parasitic (and other) capacitance is a good one. Unfortunately the amount of capacitance necessary to achieve the effect claimed varies as the frequency, that is, it must be tuned to the speed of the magnet's passage, to achieve the "choke" and kickback effect. I think. Maybe.
So a wheel with opposite polarity magnets will give you 'M' shaped waves instead of ac.
Isn't it current that creates the magnetic field?
Another question I have is; is there any coil winding configurations that are better than others as far as delaying the current yet provide for a strong reactive field? Since high voltage coils do the trick they generally are higher in
impedance.
Take care.
nap
Animations:
So in this one, voltage is climbing on approach
http://www.koehler.me.uk/animation/e_and_m_magnets.htm
But:
In this one voltage is highest when magnets are out of alignment
http://www.koehler.me.uk/animation/e_and_m_ac_gen_1.htm
hmmm
Quote from: Nali2001 on June 11, 2009, 10:43:56 PM
So a wheel with opposite polarity magnets will give you 'M' shaped waves instead of ac.
Or even weirder, depending sensitively where you have the sense coil located.
Quote from: Nali2001 on June 11, 2009, 10:47:01 PM
Animations:
So in this one, voltage is climbing on approach
http://www.koehler.me.uk/animation/e_and_m_magnets.htm
But:
In this one voltage is highest when magnets are out of alignment
http://www.koehler.me.uk/animation/e_and_m_ac_gen_1.htm
hmmm
The first one is the one 'we' are talking about and is shown correctly.
The second one is not. It is similar to Thane's single loop rotating in a constant flux field, and both are comparing apples and oranges.
Ron
Ron
Quote from: slapper on June 11, 2009, 10:44:04 PM
Isn't it current that creates the magnetic field?
Another question I have is; is there any coil winding configurations that are better than others as far as delaying the current yet provide for a strong reactive field? Since high voltage coils do the trick they generally are higher in
impedance.
Take care.
nap
Current creates the magnetic field, yes.
But you need voltage, to create the current. Voltage is the ability to overcome resistance, by passing a current. Induction produces voltage, which makes the current flow (in a circuit, if there is one). You can have voltage without current, but you can't have current without a voltage (except in superconductors, and even then you don't get it for free.)
Current is "delayed" in a coil to the extent that it sets up a magnetic field. That is, the more the induction of the coil, the more the (changing) current is delayed.
Quote from: i_ron on June 11, 2009, 10:59:05 PM
The first one is the one 'we' are talking about and is shown correctly.
The second one is not. It is similar to Thane's single loop rotating in a constant flux field, and both are comparing apples and oranges.
Ron
Ron
Umm. No, I don't think so. As the explanation of the animation shows, because of the geometry of the pole pieces, when the magnet armature is aligned vertically with the stator poles, the field actually is NOT changing. So the voltage is zero here. When the armature is horizontal, the magnet poles are in the gap of the stator poles and so the field changes rapidly here--even flips polarity--thus the voltage is maximum.
Faraday rules!
Quote from: Nali2001 on June 11, 2009, 10:43:56 PM
So a wheel with opposite polarity magnets will give you 'M' shaped waves instead of ac.
The right hand one is correct. But if you understand the coil/core magnet interaction you can follow that ... taking the hypothetical case where the approaching north pole magnet yields a rising sinewave ... the retreating north pole magnet will cause a negative going sinewave...
Now if the magnet spacing is such that as it is coming back up to the zero line and the next south pole magnet is approaching, it also will yield a negative going sinewave, hence your M wave.
So what your first sketch shows is improper magnet spacing.
The magnets need to be much closer so that the retreating north pole and the approaching south pole inductions overlap to yield an greater single peak to the sine wave.
Ron
Quote from: TinselKoala on June 11, 2009, 11:08:05 PM
Umm. No, I don't think so. As the explanation of the animation shows, because of the geometry of the pole pieces, when the magnet armature is aligned vertically with the stator poles, the field actually is NOT changing. So the voltage is zero here. When the armature is horizontal, the magnet poles are in the gap of the stator poles and so the field changes rapidly here--even flips polarity--thus the voltage is maximum.
Faraday rules!
You are right... I didn't read the second one... just dismissed it as it wasn't a magnet passing a coil...
Ron
Quote from: TinselKoala on June 11, 2009, 11:08:05 PM
Faraday rules!
...And anyone caught breaking the Faraday rules, will be locked up in the Faraday cage!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi4kXgDBFhw&feature=related
@ i_RON, Hoaptoad and others.
Ok i have been pondered on the voltage debate on TDC. This is not a philosophical issue since it is the factor that makes perepiteia works.
You clearly presentated the lathe picture and the sine wave that a single polarity magnet made. That's my experience also, BUT. Can you confirm on the scope that zero voltage coincides with magnet TDC?
Can you also verify that does not change (slip) with speed? I guess not.
Anyway whether the reason is:
* paracitic capacitance (easily can be found out by bifilar setup)
* iron lag in being magnetized/demagnetized (Bedini's charged iron saying)
* or plainly the magnet at TDC has enough voltage if not maximum (as Mr T suggests
The result is that at TDC we have voltage that initiates a delayed current, which in turn causes accelaration or at least minimum decellaration. (unless of course you still believe accelaration is due to eddie losses halt)
Regards,
Baroutologos
Apart form theorizing let's talk about experimenting.
I mounted the previous days two coils IN PHASE (specs see previous posts) wound with 29AWG @ 30 ohms.
I spinned the machine some 1100 rpm. Each one achived some 55 volts and had an 0,270 Amps oscillating current. Neither manifested accelaration at this speed.
Then i series connected them. Nor then i achieved any accelaration.
Even though my experiment is totally inconclusive, i think connecting 2x35 ohms same phase HV coils cannot give the accalaration effect of a single 70ohm one.
Additional findings: Voltage effectively doubled (some 110vAC) whereas current remained the very same (normally).
An interesting note is that the cogging torque of two coils simultaneous in phase is very high :o . Even shorted does not vanished as the odd-even (magnet-coil) configuration does.
Experiments with laminated core
.........................................................
I dismantled an trasformer and used its laminations for experimenting.
The core is 14mm x 20mm x 40mm.
Even though quite heavier and more mass than insulated wires, the rotor spins faster with it on same magnet gap than previously with 2 other wire core coils. It outputs also more power on the same windings.
So, laminations is the way to go.
Anyshop to procure, laminations & bobins that fit them ?
I plan at replacing the pulsed motor with a Permanent magnet DC motor as first step in order to achieve some 3000 rpm (finally) and to mount some 10-20 coils around rotor :P in accelaration mode of course.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: Nali2001 on June 11, 2009, 10:47:01 PM
Animations:
So in this one, voltage is climbing on approach
http://www.koehler.me.uk/animation/e_and_m_magnets.htm
But:
In this one voltage is highest when magnets are out of alignment
http://www.koehler.me.uk/animation/e_and_m_ac_gen_1.htm
hmmm
THESE ARE GREAT!
NOW INSTEAD OF USING A VOLTMETER ON NO LOAD -
SHORT OUT THE COIL (INFINITE LOAD) OR PUT IT ACROSS A 1 OHM LOAD (A PURELY RESISTIVE LOAD WHERE THE PF = 1).
WHAT HAPPENS TO THE VOLTAGE?
(BTW MAKE SURE THE COIL IMPEDANCE IS HIGH ENOUGH TO
NOT ALLOW CURRENT TO FLOW)
HINT:
1)
THE VOLTAGE AND CURRENT ARE IN PHASE (PF = 1)
CURRENT CAN'T FLOW (IMPEDANCE TOO HIGH) SO THE VOLTAGE BUILDS.
2)
AS LONG AS THE MAGNET IS APPROACHING THE COIL OR RECEDING AWAY (MOVING AT THE REQUIRED FREQUENCY IN OTHER WORDS) CURRENT WILL NEVER FLOW BECAUSE THE FREQUENCY DEPENDANT COIL IMPEDANCE WON'T ALLOW IT. IF THE CURRENT CAN'T FLOW THE POTENTIAL DIFFERENCE (VOLTAGE) ACROSS THE COIL WILL ONLY GROW AND GROW AND GROW.
3)
ONLY WHEN:
THE MAGNET IS NEITHER APPROACHING NOR RECEDING FROM THE COIL - TDC - CAN CURRENT FLOW - AND AT THIS POINT VOLTAGE IS MAXIMUM.FORTUNATELY YOU WON'T FIND THIS IN ANY TEXT BOOK OR EDUCATIONAL WEBSITE - SO YOU WILL HAVE TO USE YOUR OWN NOODLE.
T
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 12, 2009, 07:58:19 AM
FORTUNATELY YOU WON'T FIND THIS IN ANY TEXT BOOK OR EDUCATIONAL WEBSITE - SO YOU WILL HAVE TO USE YOUR OWN NOODLE.
T
Fortunately !!
Cheers
Quote from: Nali2001 on June 11, 2009, 10:47:01 PM
Animations:
So in this one, voltage is climbing on approach
http://www.koehler.me.uk/animation/e_and_m_magnets.htm
But:
In this one voltage is highest when magnets are out of alignment
http://www.koehler.me.uk/animation/e_and_m_ac_gen_1.htm
hmmm
One other things is, that is seems to be 'a shame' that the maximum rate of flux change does not go hand in hand with maximum field strength. The stronger the field gets, the less the rate of flux change becomes. So that high field strength moment is not really used.
If one could make a generator where the 'maximum field strength' also meant the 'moment of maximum flux field change' then that generator would be considerably more powerful. Not o.u, but still more watts out of the same package.
Quote from: baroutologos on June 12, 2009, 06:08:49 AM
Apart form theorizing let's talk about experimenting.
I mounted the previous days two coils IN PHASE (specs see previous posts) wound with 29AWG @ 30 ohms.
I spinned the machine some 1100 rpm. Each one achived some 55 volts and had an 0,270 Amps oscillating current. Neither manifested accelaration at this speed.
Then i series connected them. Nor then i achieved any accelaration.
Even though my experiment is totally inconclusive, i think connecting 2x35 ohms same phase HV coils cannot give the accalaration effect of a single 70ohm one.
Additional findings: Voltage effectively doubled (some 110vAC) whereas current remained the very same (normally).
An interesting note is that the cogging torque of two coils simultaneous in phase is very high :o . Even shorted does not vanished as the odd-even (magnet-coil) configuration does.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Good work, T was using coils anywhere up to 150 ohms? My small coil is 63 ohms, big coil is 120 ohms.
In series did you get 110 volts?
QuoteYou clearly presentated the lathe picture and the sine wave that a single polarity magnet made. That's my experience also, BUT. Can you confirm on the scope that zero voltage coincides with magnet TDC?
Not too likely is it? anyone who has built an Adam's pulse motor will know that the initial setting of the opto to where it "looks right" is in for a big surprise at how far you have to move it to get it to run right. All I was insisting on was that the coil/magnet is generating a positive and a negative sine and any theory should acknowledge this fact.
Ron
Quote from: Nali2001 on June 12, 2009, 09:24:37 AM
If one could make a generator where the 'maximum field strength' also meant the 'moment of maximum flux field change' then that generator would be considerably more powerful. Not o.u, but still more watts out of the same package.
Yep Steven, that would be nice.
Anyway, in all the time I have investigating the Mr T stuff I had never thought to scope the coils! So thanks for the little nudge with the "M" wave question.
First, for a base line, here is what a properly designed rotor looks like on the scope. This is based on the work of Phil Woods, the well know Aussie inventor. Notice the very nice si ne wave, a bit of a peak but that would go away with a load.
Ron
Quote from: i_ron on June 12, 2009, 12:38:19 PM
Yep Steven, that would be nice.
Anyway, in all the time I have investigating the Mr T stuff I had never thought to scope the coils! So thanks for the little nudge with the "M" wave question.
Ron
The Phil Wood design rotor has 24 magnet positions, each with two 1/8th magnets. The unloaded output voltage is 27 volts. The Hz is 359.7.
The Thane design rotor has 18 magnets in single positions so the output voltage is correspondingly lower at 17.4 volts (AC)
and the Hz is 266.6. Notice how just that little difference in magnet spacing (and cups) affects the shape of the sin e wave...but no "M" wave!
Ron
edit: both rotors NSNS
Did I miss something? Whatever happened to the over-unity demo?
fred
I dont know about the overunity demo.
I have asked to M. Thane to be there at the demo but he did not answer me.
@i_Ron: Dude, got my rig completed to a point, still need to get rotors crafted and get the magnets. I do believe I can get OU without having to go complicated. If my project works as well I think it will, it will be the most simple/compact unit here. ;)
Quote from: Pageygeeza on June 12, 2009, 04:01:11 PM
@i_Ron: Dude, got my rig completed to a point, still need to get rotors crafted and get the magnets. I do believe I can get OU without having to go complicated. If my project works as well I think it will, it will be the most simple/compact unit here. ;)
Good luck!
Ron
Thanks man appreciate it!
@All,
It seem that a few are trying to make others think that Thane does not know what he stating. The following screen captures were taken from his last video.
The first picture shows an OS, but it is not being used. So maybe Thane does not understand how to operate as expressed by others.
The second picture shows an operating OS, probably connected to his torrid transformer to the right. Must be his assistant Egor got it running.
The third picture from the video of his work board shows how a normal generator with high current coil operates. This is the same obvious established laws and equations that a few individuals have posted here afterward.
FYI, from my long experience with Thanes post, if the laws and equations are obvious, then Thane allready knows.
The fourth picture from the video of his work board shows how his generator design produces acceleration at TDC. Please note that since it is N S N magnets in the rotor, then it is a continuous positive and negative semi sine wave.
The fifth picture from the video shows all and only the closed minded will not understand.
Regards, Larry
Quote from: LarryC on June 12, 2009, 08:31:23 PM
@All,
The second picture shows an operating OS, probably connected to his torrid transformer to the right. Must be his assistant Egor got it running.
FYI, from my long experience with Thanes post, if the laws and equations are obvious, then Thane allready knows.
The fifth picture from the video shows all and only the closed minded will not understand.
Regards, Larry
I WOULD LIKE TO CLEAR A FEW THINGS UP HERE:
1st
I SOLD EGOR TO GOTOLUC WHEN HE MOVED AWAY.
I ONLY HAVE QUASIMODO AND FRITZ LEFT NOW BUT FRITZ IS FOREVER DOWN IN THE BIOLOGY LAB.
2nd
FRITZ GAINED ALOT OF EXPERIENCE FROM DR. FRANKENSTEIN SO IF ANYONE NEEDS THEIR CLOSED MINDS OPENNED UP LET ME KNOW.
3rd and most important!FYI LARRYSEE HAS NO, I REPEAT NO, EXPERIENCE WITH MY LONG POST! ;)
CARRY ON AS YOU WERE.
T
Quote from: Fred Flintstone on June 12, 2009, 01:17:58 PM
Did I miss something? Whatever happened to the over-unity demo?
fred
YES FRED YOU MISSED A LOT AS DO MOST PEOPLE.
VITUALLY EVERY DEMO VIDEO I POST IS OVER-UNITY...
THE ONLY PROBLEM NOW (AS ALWAYS) IS LACK OF EDUCATION.
THE OU DEMO YOU SPEAK OF WAS CANCELED BECAUSE IT WAS REDUNDANT.
SEE LETTER BELOW,
(be aware there is no such thing as less than zero torque or negative energy in the conventional sense - it helps people understand in these terms).
Dear Orion Project,
I know this is not exactly what you want at the Orion Project right now but you should be aware of this. I humbly suggest that you be a little more flexible with your criteria so you don't be left behind and I respectfully submit that your lack of education in this matter should be addressed and bolstered where need be.
PLEASE READ AND HAVE THIS CONFIRMED BY SOMEONE WHO KNOWS.
(Feel free to reject it as you see fit - I just want you to be informed so you don't miss the boat).
A generator converts mechanical energy in to electrical energy. The INPUT Mechanical Power = Drive Shaft Torque x Speed (notice this mathematical equation says nothing nor does it care about prime mover efficiency or prime mover power consumption)
Net Drive Shaft Torque @ Steady State Speed, Net Drive Shaft Torque = 0
Acceleration Net Drive Shaft Torque is greater than 0
Deceleration Net Drive Shaft Torque is less than 0 (negative or countertorque in the other direction)
Now again - Mechanical Drive Shaft Power = Torque x Speed So if the system is decelerating then the Net Torque is "less" than zero, therefore the net mechanical power IN the drive shaft is "less" than zero.
Energy is the ability to do work. With net zero power in - there is no ability to do any work so net zero energy comes out. There is work available in the drive shaft as inertia but the net energy out = 0 because you had to put work in - in the first place to get said inertia.
This critical point is stressed in every video and the accelerating High Voltage Coils are always engaged during SYSTEM DECELERATION and then cause ACCELERATION of the system.
So the question is where does the acceleration (extra ENERGY) come from? Answer:
The High Voltage Coils above the critical minimum rotor frequency because deceleration returns if the High Voltage Coils are disengaged or if the rotor speed it too low.
1)
Now we have a drive shaft that is decelerating.
2)
The ENERGY IN a decelerating drive shaft is "LESS" THAN ZERO.
3)
If we try to extract energy (in the conventional mode) from a drive shaft that is decelerating we will only contribute to the deceleration and our output will be net zero.
4)
It is ONLY when the rotor speed stabilizes at a
steady state speed can we extract REAL USE ABLE POWER.
This is the Power IN. 5)
When we engage the power producing High Voltage Coils AND cause system acceleration WITH a drive shaft that is decelerating (0 net power) then we are operating in the OVER-UNITY RANGE because our energy IN is STILL less than 0 but our energy OUT is greater than 0.
Please check out our latest video and enclosed Power Point where the
NET POWER IN = 7 Watts
And the NET POWER OUT = 45 Watts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3JVjbXOssQ&feature=channel_page
In the mean time I am still trying to satisfy your criteria but it requires more time and money because we have to eliminate the core losses in the coil stator (with a one piece stator) and find a more efficient prime mover. I am also building larger coils which will produce more power out.
This is not a request for additional funding because I will do it anyway but you should be aware of all the facts so you can proceed accordingly. Additional funding will only serve to expedite the whole process.
Thanks
Thane
Thane C. Heins
President - Potential +/- Difference Inc.
"Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything."
- George Bernard Shaw
Quote from: LarryC on June 12, 2009, 08:31:23 PM
@All,
It seem that a few are trying to make others think that Thane does not know what he stating.
Regards, Larry
Yes Larry, you were right.
Good bye,
Ron P
An Analysis of Thane Hein’s Three Legged CoreOne of the things that kept me going on this was the dramatic increase in speed and output when the HV coil was shorted on the three legged model.
However it has a rather mundane explanation when examined.
With a 120 ohm coil on the center leg, draw is reduced from 81 watts to 67 watts, when shorted. Base line draw, with no core, was 47 watts, thus the shorted HV coil has reduced the draw a little better than one third. A sense coil on one outside leg showed conventional behavior in that voltage was reduced by about one half when the HV coil was shorted. This is a logical observation, when you draw heavily on one leg the other leg is not capable of the previous output. A sense coil over the HV coil showed an almost no induced voltage state, when the HV coil was shorted.
It is perhaps easiest to understand what is taking place, if one were to imagine a coil wound over one outside leg and the center leg. There would be no measurable output as the two cores are in anti-phase.
So with a coil over all three legs, as has been shown in the videos, the total induced voltage is limited by the anti-phase leg in the center. When the negative influence of this leg is ameliorated by shorting the HV coil, the output voltage rises correspondingly. Simple as that. In actual fact, if the center leg and HV coil were to be cut out, the output would probably be greater.
To date my experiments have shown that core drag reduction only takes place with a high drag material such as steel transformer laminations; with a low drag material, such as Somaloy, the effect is not present, in fact the opposite, draw is increased by shorting the HV coil with a Somaloy core. This statement by itself should pose a serious question for those supporting a capacitive effect. I do not have the specifications for the coils and cores in Thane’s latest video, so am unable to verify their behavior
Quote from: i_ron on June 13, 2009, 10:29:11 AM
Yes Larry, you were right.
However it has a rather mundane explanation when examined.
Ron P
BACK TO RULE #1 NEVER - EVER BELIEVE ANYTHING ANYONE EVER SAYS WITHOUT SEEING IT FIRSTHAND.
AND WATCH OUT FOR MIG'S
I_RON'S EVER PERSISTENT BLINDSPOT HAS TO DO WITH
CORE LOSSES RATHER THAN
ARMATURE REACTION (LENZ'S LAW) IN A CONVENTIONAL HC GENERATOR vs THE HV GENERATOR.
NOW THE COMMON DENOMINATOR IN THIS DISCUSSION IS THAT ALL GENERATORS HAVE CORES.AND SINCE ALL GENERATORS HAVE CORE LOSSES WE CAN LOGICALLY ELIMINATE THE COMMON DENOMINATOR I.E. CORES AND CORE LOSSES.WHAT'S LEFT?
ARMATURE REACTION.LAST VIDEO CONVENTIONAL ARMATURE REACTION = DECELERATION OUTPUT = 7 WATTS.
HV COIL ARMATURE REACTION = ACCELERATION OUTPUT = 38 WATTS + 7 CONVETIONAL WATTS = 45 WATTS.
CONCLUSIONIT ONLY TAKES 7 WATTS OF CONVENTIONAL POWER TO DECELERATE THE ROTOR
BUT
38 WATTS OF REGENERATIVE ACCELERATIVE POWER CAN BE OBTAINED IN NON CONVENTIONAL MODE.
IN ADDITION
THE DECELERATIVE CONVENTIONAL 7 WATTS CAN BE OVERIDDEN BY THE ACCELERATIVE 38 WATTS GIVING A TOAL OUTPUT OF 45 WATTS.
ALL GENERATORS HAVE CORES AND CORE LOSSES = NON ISSUENOT ALL GENERATORS ACCELERATE UNDER LOAD - IN FACT CONVENTIONALLY THE GREATER THE LOAD THE GREATER THE DECELERATION.
WHEREAS THE GREATER THE LOAD IN THE PEREPITEIA GENERATOR THE GREATER THE ACCELERATION.
MIG = MEN IN GREY
T
PS
SEE LETTER SOMALOY CORE MAKER FOR SAMPLE REQUEST...
SOMALY CORES ARE DESIGNED TO OPERATE IN THE KHZ REGION.--- On Wed, 6/10/09, Andersson Ola <Ola.Andersson@hoganas.com> wrote:
From: Andersson Ola <Ola.Andersson@hoganas.com>
Subject: SV: Request for Motor Core Samples
To: thane_heins@yahoo.ca
Cc: "Hofecker Paul" <paul.hofecker@nah.com>
Received: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 11:30 AM
Dear Thane
Thank you for the interest in our materials.
I must confess I do not full understand the Regenerative Acceleration Technology from the presentation that was sent to us.
However, I am interested in knowing why you believe the Somaloy technology is suited for you application.
Normally the Somaloy technology brings benefit to the application if the flux is moving in 3D and/or if the magnetic cores see a high frequency field (kHz level). Ola
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Från: Howe Ian
Skickat: den 9 juni 2009 16:13
Till: thane_heins@yahoo.ca; Andersson Ola
Kopia: kcunningham@ocri.ca; Hofecker Paul; Nandivada Nagarjuna
Ã,,mne: FW: Request for Motor Core Samples
Dear Thane
As I am on vacation I am forwarding your request to Mr Ola Andersson, one of my colleagues who is based in Sweden .
Ola will be in touch soon with recommendations
Thanks & BR
Ian
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Thane C. Heins [mailto:thane_heins@yahoo.ca]
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 5:34 PM
To: Howe Ian
Cc: kcunningham@ocri.ca
Subject: Request for Motor Core Samples
Dear Ian,
Please find enclosed a Power Point Presentation of our Regenerative Acceleration Technology that we are developing at the University of Ottawa, Canada.
We would like to employ your Somaloy Cores in our motor/generator.
Please advise us on how we can go about this.
Sincerely
Thane
I too, (since day 1) have considered the possibility, that Thane's extra energy was a mirage caused by loss mitigation, rather than by actual energy capture. However, in an energy hungry world, even reducing loss, frees up energy that can be put to good use elsewhere.
I follow this thread out of curiosity, to see how far Thane will be able to take his idea, and for amusement (debates, jokes etc.) As for the Perepiteia, the acid test for Thane, will be the cost efficiency of his generator, compared with today's standard, commercially available generators. If it can produce higher efficiency, at similar, or lower production cost, it can be a winner, regardless of being overunity. Finally, if Thane keeps adding coils as promised, we will find the true role of core loss effects, one way or the other. I for one, wouldn't want Thane to stop, just when things are getting interesting!
Quote from: derricka on June 13, 2009, 04:52:36 PM
I too, (since day 1) have considered the possibility, that Thane's extra energy was a mirage caused by loss mitigation, rather than by actual energy capture. However, in an energy hungry world, even reducing loss, frees up energy that can be put to good use elsewhere.
I follow this thread out of curiosity, to see how far Thane will be able to take his idea, and for amusement (debates, jokes etc.) As for the Perepiteia, the acid test for Thane, will be the cost efficiency of his generator, compared with today's standard, commercially available generators. If it can produce higher efficiency, at similar, or lower production cost, it can be a winner, regardless of being overunity. Finally, if Thane keeps adding coils as promised, we will find the true role of core loss effects, one way or the other. I for one, wouldn't want Thane to stop, just when things are getting interesting!
I did some early testing with the transformer (bad results, but my fault) and then the AC motor HV and HC coil setup. It did work as Thane stated and posted results, but I never really new for sure why, as I had nothing better than a multimeter and Thane had a series of different theories back then.
Now, Thane has a very well equipped lab and probably some access to information from students and a few Doctorates in the Physics and Engineering area at OU. I'm sure this has helped narrow down and refine the current theory.
@Thane, yes, people should test, but most don't have any of the equipment in your lab. So, just for us individuals who have electronic equipment challenges, could you please show an OS shot with TDC marks or any other supporting data?
Regards, Larry
Quote from: derricka on June 13, 2009, 04:52:36 PM
As for the Perepiteia, the acid test for Thane, will be the cost efficiency of his generator, compared with today's standard, commercially available generators. If it can produce higher efficiency, at similar, or lower production cost, it can be a winner, regardless of being overunity. Finally, if Thane keeps adding coils as promised, we will find the true role of core loss effects, one way or the other. I for one, wouldn't want Thane to stop, just when things are getting interesting!
POTENTIAL DIFFERENCE INC. REGENERATIVE ACCELERATION POWER POINT PRESENTATION.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5F0UHET4
CHEERS
T
Quote from: LarryC on June 13, 2009, 07:42:30 PM
Now, Thane has a very well equipped lab and probably some access to information from students and a few Doctorates in the Physics and Engineering area at OU. I'm sure this has helped narrow down and refine the current theory.
NO HELP FROM STUDENTS OR PROFS - JUST CORRECTION IF THE LOGIC IS CLEARLY OFF.
Quote@Thane, yes, people should test, but most don't have much of the equipment in your lab. So, just for us individuals who have electronic equipment challenges, could you please show an OS shot with TDC marks or any other supporting data?
Regards, Larry
PRETTY HARD TO POST A TDC SHOT AT 3200 RPM - BUT I WILL POST SOME SCOPE SHOTS.
GO BACK TO I_RONS SCOPE SHOT AND SEE HOW THE HV COIL PRODUCES A SPIKED PULSE RATHER THAN A GRADUAL SINE WAVE.
STAY TUNED FOR SOME SILLY-SCOPE SHOTS - BUT CAN SOMEONE TELL ME HOW TO WORK IT FIRST PLEASE?
THANKS
T
People have to build something more descent with proper E coil(s) instead of rotor with couple of magnets and 1000+ rpm. Test it and only then make conclusions about Thanes work. I am glad he is back and helping us along and didnt bail out like few others did. Ron has nice rotor but appearently no E coil yet. I am still building mine still looking for proper size E laminates, waiting on coil winding machine. GL
"I FOLLOW THE DATA THEORY BE DAMNED" - Sr. Lockheed M. scientist Boyd Bushman
Regards Minde
Quote from: LarryC on June 13, 2009, 07:42:30 PM
So, just for us individuals who have electronic equipment challenges, could you please show an OS shot with TDC marks or any other supporting data?
Regards, Larry
HERE ARE A COUPLE OF E CORE SCOPE SHOTS -
THE 1ST ONE IS THE HC COIL ON LOAD WITHOUT THE HV COIL ENGAGED AND
THE 2ND ONE IS WITH THE HV COIL ENGAGED.
CHEERS
T
Quote from: minde4000 on June 13, 2009, 08:16:10 PM
"I FOLLOW THE DATA THEORY BE DAMNED" - Sr. Lockheed M. scientist Boyd Bushman
Regards Minde
PERFORMANCE COMPARISON DATA SUMMARY YOUTUBE VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3JVjbXOssQ&feature=channel_page
Conventional generator on load alone delivers an
output 6.35 Watts with a corresponding prime mover
power input increase of 4% or 11 Watts.Regenerative acceleration generator and conventional generator on load deliver a combined
output of 43.8 Watts with a prime mover
input reduction of 19 Watts.589% output power increase with a 6.5% input power decrease.Regenerative acceleration generator alone delivers a 498% output power increase over the conventional generator alone with a 11.6% decrease in prime mover input.T
Hello @ All,
Its very nice to see Mr T. posting info still here! Thanks man.
At all... a kind request.
Perhaps we should avoid excessive theorizing and focus and experimental facts we have. If you cant experiment yourself, theorizing cant make your statements more valid than others.
My last experiment
..........................................................
We talked about why at magnet TDC exists a voltage that initiates a delayed current. On of the theories was that there is a parasitic capacitatance of the coil. I had to test that.
I wound a bifillar ala Tesla style coil (photos pending) with two wires (not twisted) at 38 ohms each. This way the paracitic capacitance is some thousands time more than sigle wire wound coil.
Running the coil
..........................................................
By series connecting the two parallel coils in the 1100 rpm region i did not managed to achieve any accelaration. (decellaration little though)
This series connected coils output 110 Vac and 0,15 A was the shorted oscillating current.
So we can safely conclude from this simple experiment that noT the Paracitic capacitance do the job.
Interesting effects of biffilar coil in PARALLEL mode
...........................................................................
By the way there are amazing results of the bifilar setup that not sigle wire wound coils have.
When i parallel connected the two coils i had a 55 VAC at 1100 rmp and some 0,3 A oscillating current.
Neither this way i achieved any accelaration, but...
With great astonishement i found out the fact that when you pose a load to coil, it can handle it way better than a single wound wire coil of same size or output in terms of Lenz's law decellaration.
Shorting it
........................................................................
Even though in the decellaration mode, when i shorted it it decellarates the rotor just a bit (from 1100 to 1000 rmp)
If you just short only the one parallel coil, great decellaration kicks in and brings the rotor to full stop.
I remember from my previous experiments that if i shorted a coil not in the accelaration mode, then it initially would slow down a bit, but as the rotor it would slow down, the decellaration becomes faster and faster till to dead stop.
Bifillar coil from my initial experiments has way better way of handling lenz law. (even though does not accelarates)
Loading it
........................................................................
I reapetedly have said that if you apply a load to a accellarating or just barely decellarating coil, then decellaration kicks in in a hard mode. The coils manifest their full accelaration effects when shorted and the oscillating current goes unimpeded or just near to it.
A serious resistive load that will half the shorted oscillating current (according my experiments) results in a brutal decellaration.
Till now all my loads were 12v lead acid batteries powered by the coils via a FWBR.
Even the coils that manifested accelaration, when employed in this configuration they would decellarete to a dead stop.
for example my first 75 ohms HV accelarating coil outputed 110vac and a current (shorted) 130 mA. When used the FWBR and a single battery to charge it was barely if at all accelarating. Thus giving 0,110 (drop) x 12,5 volts = some 1,3 watts energy stores losses include. If i arranged 2 x 12volt batteries in series then decellaration kicked in and rotor full stop.
But, in bifillar coil, the 12 volt battery was charged 0,250 A or some 2,5 watts (drop from 0,3 shorted) and rotor did not go below 1000 rpm, no matter what.
Bottom line, bifilar or litzed wire coils if employed as HC coils are way better. As for the HV coils employed in bifilar mode i can only speculate...
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: baroutologos on June 14, 2009, 03:57:25 AM
Bottom line, bifilar or litzed wire coils if employed as HC coils are way better. As for the HV coils employed in bifilar mode i can only speculate...
Regards,
Baroutologos
Nice fresh observation. Thanks for sharing! KneeDeep
Cheers
P.S. I found bi-filar coils best for the drive coils of adams motors. The same acceleration is oberved (for different reasons), when only one coil is used for the drive, and the other is connected back to source via a diode at one end with a common connection to negative at the other end. (I used npn switching).
I never actually tested bi filars as passive pickup coils.
Thanks again for the observation.
Quote from: baroutologos on June 14, 2009, 03:57:25 AM
I wound a bifillar ala Tesla style coil (photos pending) with two wires (not twisted) at 38 ohms each. This way the paracitic capacitance is some thousands time more than sigle wire wound coil.
Bifillar coil from my initial experiments has way better way of handling lenz law. (even though does not accelarates)
Regards,
Baroutologos
ALMOST EVERY COIL I AM USING LATELY IS BIFILAR. parallel-wound, series connected
SHOWN CLEARLY IN THIS VID RED & GREEN WIRES: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPMbWzNuMOg&feature=channel_page
THIS VID USES
BIFILAR ONLY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3JVjbXOssQ&feature=channel_page
IF YOU ARE USING A 6 POLE ROTOR - YOU OUGHT TO SPECIFY THAT BECAUSE FREQUENCY IS A DECIDING FACTOR IN COIL PERFORMANCE.
THERE ARE MANY REASONS WHY A HV COIL DOES NOT ACCELERATE...
AND THEY ALL HAVE TO BE ADJUSTED ACCORDINGLY.
NOT ENOUGH TURNS
NOT ENOUGH IMPEDANCE
FREQUENCY TOO LOW
MAGNET STRENGTH TOO HIGH
TURNS NOT WOUND TIGHT ENOUGH - IF WOUND BY HAND.THIS IS A REPLICATION THREAD - ANY STATEMENT SHOULD BE PRECEDED BY
"IN MY EXPERIENCE"
SO THAT OTHERS ARE NOT MIS-DIRECTED.
I REQUEST THAT YOU PLEASE GO BACK AND RE-TEST WITH A 12 OR 18 POLE ROTOR AND THEN REPOST YOUR FINDINGS - YOUR FREQUENCY WILL BE HIGHER AND THE IMPEDANCE OF YOUR BIFILAR COIL WILL ALSO BE IN THE CORRECT RANGE.
THANKS
T
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 13, 2009, 11:10:43 AM
BACK TO RULE #1
ALL GENERATORS HAVE CORES AND CORE LOSSES = NON ISSUE
Thane
Core design and material (and rotor design and material) dictates how much loss, and how it is manifested.
Cogging torque and reluctance losses are always issues to be considered and dealt with by correct design and materials choice.
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 14, 2009, 08:20:49 AM
THIS IS A REPLICATION THREAD - ANY STATEMENT SHOULD BE PRECEDED BY "IN MY EXPERIENCE"
"In my experience" this thread should be called Miscellaneous Perepetia, since the Perepetia effect is not limited to a specific design or anyones specific experience.
As I_ron so eloquently put it, the Perepetia effect is a mundane effect, and can manifest over a broad range of impedances and core designs. But it can still be useful, mundane or not.
There are plenty of other designs on You Tube exhibiting the same or similar effects, even though they vary significantly. The question is, who'll come up with the most efficient total system input versus total system output?
Few are likely to have access to all the same materials, machinery, workshops etc to make exact replicas of any one design.
That can be a good thing. A broader range of designs and ideas has a greater chance of producing better methods and results, than everyone doing the same thing.
Cheers
Quote from: hoptoad on June 14, 2009, 08:28:49 AM
Core design and material (and rotor design and material) dictates how much loss, and how it is manifested.
YOU ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION
AS USUAL.WE ARE NOT NOR HAVE WE EVER BEEN IN THE
GENERATOR CORE BUSINESS.
WE ARE IN THE
GENERATOR REDUCTION OF ARMATURE REACTION BUSINESS.
THE COMMON DENOMINATOR IS THE CORE BECAUSE WE EMPLOY COILS WOUND ON BOBBINS WHICH WE INTERCHANGE
ON THE SAME CORE. AND ALL WE LOOK AT IS COIL REACTION TO LOADING.
I.E
HC COIL DECELERATES AS PER LENZ'S LAW, PRODUCES DIMINISHING OUTPUT AND REQUIRES ADDITIONAL PRIME MOVER INPUT.
HV COIL ACCELERATES, PRODUCES INCREASING OUTPUT AND REQUIRES REDUCED PRIME MOVER INPUT. THE ONLY POSSIBLE PROBLEM WITH HV COILS COULD HAVE BEEN A REDUCTION IN PERFORMANCE WITH HIGHER GRADE CORE MATERIAL (LOWER CORE LOSSES ETC) BUT IT HAS BEEN SHOW THAT HIGHER GRADE CORE MATERIALS ONLY INCREASE PERFORMANCE.
THIS IS WHY WE UPGRADED CORE MATERIALS MONTHS AGO TO CONFIRM THIS FACT.
NOW WE ARE PLANNING TO HAVE A ONE PIECE STATOR MADE WHICH EMPLOYS MULTIPLE COILS EITHER INDIVIDUALLY WOUND OR SIGULARLY WOUND.
ALL OF THIS INFO HAS BEEN PRESENTED MANY TIMES.
AGAIN THIS IS A REPLICATION THREAD - NOT A SELF-AGGRANDIZATION THREAD - I AM ONLY HERE TO ASSIST OTHERS AND I ONLY CAME BACK TO REDIRECT A REPLICATOR BACK ON COURSE - I AM NOT HERE TO BE INSTRUCTED ON THE OBVIOUS. QuoteCogging torque and reluctance losses are always issues to be considered and dealt with by correct design and materials choice.
LARRYSEE YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO RE-POST YOUR PREVIOUS COMMENT - SO WE CAN ELIMINATE THIS DICK MEASURING BS ONCE AND FOR ALL AND GET DOWN TO BUSINESS.
T
Quote from: hoptoad on June 14, 2009, 08:52:01 AM
"In my experience" this thread should be called Miscellaneous Perepetia, since the Perepetia effect is not limited to a specific design or anyones specific experience.
As I_ron so eloquently put it, the Perepetia effect is a mundane effect, and can manifest over a broad range of impedances and core designs. But it can still be useful, mundane or not.
Cheers
YOU ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION
AS USUAL.
"IN MY EXPERIENCE" MEANS EXPERIMENTAL LAB TESTING EXPERIENCE NOT SOMEONE'S JADED AND CYNICAL OPINIONS - WHICH INCLUDES BOTH YOURS AND I_RON'S AT THIS POINT AND IS COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE TO THE ORIGINAL INTENTION OF THIS THREAD.T
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 14, 2009, 09:13:32 AM
WE ARE NOT NOR HAVE WE EVER BEEN IN THE GENERATOR CORE BUSINESS.
WE ARE IN THE GENERATOR REDUCTION OF ARMATURE REACTION BUSINESS.
Is that the Royal We ??
Hopefully everyone else is in the business of creating a better generator. Full stop!
How that is achieved, is something everyone can determine for themselves aided by their own observations and judgements based on their own data and experiments.
Cheers
Quote from: hoptoad on June 14, 2009, 09:31:32 AM
Is that the Royal We ??
Cheers
AS I SAID, JADED AND CYNICAL.AS FOR ANYONE ELSE ... PURE SCIENTIFIC ENQUIRY IN IT'S TRUEST FORM SHOULD BE PERFORMED WITH A CHILDLIKE WIDE EYED ENTHUSIASM AND SHOULD BE FUN!
CYNICS, NAYSAYERS, AND BUMMERISM PEOPLE WHO SAY IT CAN'T BE DONE (BY THEM)SHOULD BE IGNORED AT ALL COST.
T
LOL - now there you go trying to get all personal again. Stick to posting your data and having fun. Calling people names and casting aspersions at their character and motives is surely beneath you, isn't it?
Cheers
Quote from: hoptoad on June 14, 2009, 09:45:27 AM
LOL - now there you go trying to get all personal again. Stick to posting your data and having fun. Calling people names and casting aspersions at their character and motives is surely beneath you, isn't it?
Cheers
STILL NOT PAYING ATTENTION -
AS USUAL!NOTHING IS BELOW, ABOVE OR OUT OF BOUNDS FOR CRANKpants AND THAT IS THEY KEY ELEMENT TO SUCCESS.IN MY EXPERIENCE - THE MINUTE YOU SAY TO YOURSELF, "I CAN'T DO THAT, I CAN'T SAY THAT OR I CAN'T THINK THAT" THEN YOU MAY AS WELL BE DEAD BECAUSE YOU ARE NO LONGER FREE.
T
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 14, 2009, 10:08:53 AM
STILL NOT PAYING ATTENTION - AS USUAL!
NOTHING IS BELOW, ABOVE OR OUT OF BOUNDS FOR CRANKpants AND THAT IS THEY KEY ELEMENT TO SUCCESS.
IN MY EXPERIENCE - THE MINUTE YOU SAY TO YOURSELF, "I CAN'T DO THAT, I CAN'T SAY THAT OR I CAN'T THINK THAT" THEN YOU MAY AS WELL BE DEAD BECAUSE YOU ARE NO LONGER FREE.
T
I'm free to say and express whatever I want. Just like you. And everybody else is free to do their own experiments which will either verify your interpretations of the effect or find query with it. Let the replicators make up their own minds!
Try feeling free to let others express themselves without your derision or brow beating.
Democracy is a wonderful thing. It only exists when we are free to disagree, without coercion to agree, nor comdemnation if we disagree.
Cheers
Quote from: hoptoad on June 14, 2009, 10:34:36 AM
I'm free to say and express whatever I want. Just like you.
TRUE - YOU CAN BE AS WRONG AS YOU WISH.
AND YOU CAN BE A SLEAZY DOG BY CHANGING THE TITLE OF THE THREAD TO SUIT YOUR OWN DISINGENUOUS STYLE AS WELL.QuoteAnd everybody else is free to do their own experiments which will either verify your interpretations of the effect or find query with it.
TRUE BUT THE EXPERIMENTS HAVE TO BE DONE CORRECTLY.
QuoteLet the replicators make up their own minds!
RIGHT - YOU SHOULD TRY IT.
QuoteTry feeling free to let others express themselves without your derision or brow beating.
NOPE - A PERSON WHO CANNOT FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS CORRECTLY - CAN'T PRODUCE VALID RESULTS AND A PERSON WHO CAN'T PRODUCE VALID RESULTS REQUIRES CORRECTION - IF THIS IS TO BE A THANE HEINS PEREPITEIA THREAD.
IF IT IS MEANT TO BE AN
AD-HOC THROW A BUNCH OF CRAP TOGETHER AND HOPE IT WORKS THREAD OR A
LET'S SCREW IT UP SO WE CAN SLAM IT THREAD THEN SO-BE-IT.
QuoteDemocracy is a wonderful thing. It only exists when we are free to disagree, without coercion to agree, nor comdemnation if we disagree.
WRONG AGAIN - CONDEMNATION IS PART OF IT - BUT NUMBERS AND DATA DON'T LIE ONLY PEOPLE DO.
THAT IS WHY I GO TO GREAT LENGTHS TO POST PHOTO DATA OR VIDEO AND EVERYTHING IS DOUBLE OR TRIPLE CHECKED BY OTHERS.
T
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 14, 2009, 10:58:05 AM
BUT NUMBERS AND DATA DON'T LIE ONLY PEOPLE DO.
T
QuoteI AM ONLY HERE TO ASSIST OTHERS AND I ONLY CAME BACK TO REDIRECT A REPLICATOR BACK ON COURSE
What that means translated: if the list had been left alone the fallacy of the Perepiteia generator would have been exposed.
Quote- I AM NOT HERE TO BE INSTRUCTED ON THE OBVIOUS.
Indeed, if your theory is wrong you will not admit it, correct it, nor apologize to those you have belittled in your “claim†that they are wrong.
Just a steady diet of innuendo and character assassination.
“In my personal experience†I did the test on the E core and showed it to be a fallacy. You have not shown any evidence that my conclusion is wrong, Read my post again, my data does not lie.
The E core is a hoax!
Ron
AS I SAID JADED AND CYNICAL.
I HAVE CORRECTED THE THEORY TWICE SO FAR.
T
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 14, 2009, 10:58:05 AM
EXPERIMENTS HAVE TO BE DONE CORRECTLY.
A PERSON WHO CANNOT FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS CORRECTLY - CAN'T PRODUCE VALID RESULTS AND A PERSON WHO CAN'T PRODUCE VALID RESULTS REQUIRES CORRECTION - IF THIS IS TO BE A THANE HEINS PEREPITEIA THREAD.
These are
key points, but the fact is the
instructions are not clearly stated in one location. There are pieces in various post along with tons of BS post in between. For anybody to go thru and not get lost in the manure and various stages and then create a working replication is amazing. The videos have good performance information but not detailed replication information.
You need to have a thread where the first post contains the how to instructions (like Luc's) and any new people wanting to replicate can go there and get it replicated quickly.
Even show various build material that worked, for instance my cores (like your originals) were made from various widths of 1/8 thick steel bars from Home Depot, which were much much cheaper.
I'm sure this would cut down the BS from those people doing it just to distract or mislead. I don't think this is true for all dissenting opinions, so those will still exist, but more manageable.
It should significantly cut down on the incorrect replications and people claiming it is a hoax.
If you don't like the first post method, at least add the build detail to the board or to the post when you list the video.
Regards, Larry
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 14, 2009, 12:07:11 PM
AS I SAID JADED AND CYNICAL.
T
It was my request to Stefan that started this list. I am in charge here.
I will not tolerate any further abuse from you. You are a guest on this list along with all the rest of us. Please refrain from such talk.
If you don't like it you have the option of reactivating your old list.
Ron
Quote from: LarryC on June 14, 2009, 12:21:44 PM
and people claiming it is a hoax.
Regards, Larry
Larry, I did a very careful experiment on the E core style coil/core in post 134. What is it that you don't understand? Can I redo and show that in more detail for you?
This was my 'hoax' statement, yet you seem to have included all Thane's models in your view. Thane made an error in the description of how a sin e wave is generated from single pole and made out that I was a liar. Yet when I showed links and actual evidence he neither corrected his mistake
nor did you accept my evidence as correct.
And still this little sniping going on towards me? Do the experiment on how a single pole generates a sine wave and do the experiment as I have suggested on the E core and you will see who is presenting the correct evidence.
Ron
Quote from: i_ron on June 14, 2009, 12:46:12 PM
Larry, I did a very careful experiment on the E core style coil/core in post 134.
Ron
Larry and all,
To illustrate the principle of coil wiring in a NSN device I have lifted an illustration from 'Simple Adam's Motor Concepts', Hoptoads site, Thanks hoppy.
But note that every other coil must be flipped over to maintain that the output will be additive? In other words if you wired them all the same hand ,each one would fight the other and the output would be zero (if they were of equal outputs)
Now what do we see in Thane's E core style coil?
The output is of the same hand over three cores. Therefore the output can only be the output of two coils minus one coil. BUT, if we were to short out the center leg, then the output could rise to that of two coils.
Ron
Quote from: LarryC on June 14, 2009, 12:21:44 PM
These are key points, but the fact is the instructions are not clearly stated in one location. There are pieces in various post along with tons of BS post in between. For anybody to go thru and not get lost in the manure and various stages and then create a working replication is amazing. The videos have good performance information but not detailed replication information.
snip
Regards, Larry
These are good points Larry, we should try to work towards this goal.
I realize that not everyone has the same facilities to build... and this is the big stumbling block. But if one wants to experience the joy of actually building projects then the first step is to quietly gather some stuff together. A good multimeter, with the understanding that it is only accurate at 50/60 cycles, a few hand tools and a dedicated space to work.
If you notice I show DSO (digital storage oscilloscope) graphs in my posts,
sort of a little hint that one doesn't need to spend thousands of bucks on a 'good' scope when for a few hundred one can hook one of these up to an old com puter and be able to measure voltages accurately at the Hz encountered in these experiments. I just have the 101 but the new one includes multi functions...It sure beats working in the dark.
http://www.syscompdesign.com/index.html
Its a fun hobby and probably cheaper than golf!
Ron
Quote from: baroutologos on June 14, 2009, 03:57:25 AM
Hello @ All,
...........................................................................
By the way there are amazing results of the bifilar setup that not sigle wire wound coils have.
When i parallel connected the two coils i had a 55 VAC at 1100 rmp and some 0,3 A oscillating current.
Neither this way i achieved any accelaration, but...
With great astonishement i found out the fact that when you pose a load to coil, it can handle it way better than a single wound wire coil of same size or output in terms of Lenz's law decellaration.
snip
Regards,
Baroutologos
Great to see your results baroutologos, Yes, there are interesting things happening with bifilar coils. One of my best producers is bifilar.
Thanks again for sharing.
Ron
Quote from: i_ron on June 14, 2009, 12:34:16 PM
I am in charge here.
Ron
OK MR. I_AM_IN_CHARGE_HERE,
HERE IS WHAT PEOPLE SHOULD DO TO REPLICATE THE THANE HEINS PEREPITEIA PROPERLY.
1) DON'T LISTEN TO I_RON.
2) DON'T LISTEN TO HOPTOAD.
3) WIND A HIGH VOLTAGE COIL ON CHEAP STEEL IRON BARS FROM HOME DEPOT LIKE LARRYC.
4) USE AN 18 POLE ROTOR AND WIND A SERIES BI-FILAR COIL.
5) PUT ENOUGH TURNS ON UNTIL ACCELERATION STARTS WHEN COIL SHORTED. IF NO
ACCELERATION ADD MORE TURNS UNTIL IT DOES OR RAISE ROTOR SPEED.
6) 30 GUAGE WIRE IS BEST TO START WITH - 100 OHMS WOUND TIGHTLY SHOULD WORK.
7) THEN ONCE YOU HAVE A GOOD IDEA OF WHAT IT TAKES TO GET ACCELERATION WITH CHEAP CORES - UPGRADE TO GOOD TRANSFORMER LAMINATIONS.
8) REPEAT STEPS 1 - 6
9) NOW CHANGE THE GAUGE OF WIRE TO 22 GAUGE AND REPEAT STEPS 1 - 6.
10) NOW ADD AN EXTERNAL LOAD TO YOUR COIL - START WITH 1 OHM, 10 OHM AND UP UNTIL ACCELERATION DISAPPEARS.
11) NOW YOU KNOW THE LOAD OPERATING RANGE OF SAID COIL.
12) NOW GET A STEP DOWN TRANSFORMER AND STEP DOWN THE HV OUTPUT FROM YOUR ACCELERATING HV COIL.
13) MAKE SURE THE TRANSFORMER DOES NOT REMOVE THE ACCELERATIVE EFFECTS
14) NOW ADD A LOAD - A LIGHT BULB IS NICE BUT YOU NEED A LOW RESISTANCE LIGHT BULB IF YOU ARE GOING TO MAINTAIN ACCELERATION.
15) THE LIGHT BULBS FROM THE RYOBI BENCH GRINDER WORK WELL BECAUSE THEIR RESISTANCE IS ONLY 2 OHMS.
16) IF YOU GET THIS FAR YOU WILL HAVE A PRETTY GOOD IDEA OF WHAT IT TAKES TO CREATE AND MAINTAIN ACCELERATION UNDER DIFFERENT CONDITIONS - IF YOU FAIL ANYWHERE ALONG THE WAY JUST SAY IT'S ALL A HOAX.
17) NOW YOU CAN TRY AN E CORE.
18) TO MAKE AN E CORE WORK WELL YOU NEED TO MAKE ONE BY HAND FIRST ALSO IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO USE CHEAP STEEL EARLY ON AS WELL.
19) MAKE THE INNER E FINGER FIRST AND GET IT WORKING.
20) THEN MAKE THE OUTER E FINGERS - WIND HV WIRE ON THE OUTER E FINGERS.
21) MAKE SURE THE INNER E FINGER LAMINATIONS ARE TURNED 90 DEGREES TO THE OUTER E FINGER LAMINATIONS 22) YOU CAN ALSO MAKE A MODIFIED E COIL WITH AN INNER HV COIL AND THEN AN IRON PIPE AROUND THE INNER HV COIL WITH HV WINDINGS ON TOP OF THAT - LEAVE THE BACKING PLATE OFF FOR NOW.
23) THE ROLE OF THE CONCENTRIC E COIL IS FOR THE OUTER CORE TO COLLECT THE INNER COIL'S DISCHARGING FLUX AND VISE VERSA.
24) THE INNER HV CORE AND THE OUTER HV CORE MUST LINE UP CORRECTLY WITH THE MAGNETS ON THE ROTOR OR IT WON'T WORK. IT TOOK ME 5 SOLID WEEKS TO GET IT RIGHT - IF HOWEVER IT DOES NOT WORK FOR YOU THE FIRST TIME THEN JUST SAY IT IS A HOAX.
25) NOW ONCE YOU GET THIS FAR MAKE A BI-TOROID HV COIL WITH DUAL ROTORS - SIMILAR TO THE ONE IN MY EARLIER BASEMENT VIDEOS. THERE IS NO AIR GAP BETWEEN THE COILS AND THE FLUX FROM ONE COIL GOES RIGHT INTO THE OTHER - AND YOU GET ACCELERATION.
26) ANY PROBLEMS ALONG THE WAY - TALK TO THE MAN IN "CHARGE" OR SEND ME AN EMAIL @ thane_heins@yahoo.ca .
T
Quote from: i_ron on June 14, 2009, 12:46:12 PM
Thane made an error in the description of how a sine wave is generated from single pole. Yet when I showed links and actual evidence he neither corrected his mistake nor did you accept my evidence as correct.
YOU SHOWED LINKS TO A CONVENTIONAL COIL WHICH IS NOT THE SAME THING AS AN HV COIL AT THE CORRECT FREQUENCY AND YOU CAN'T SHOW CORRECT EVIDENCE OF AN HV COIL IN OPERATION UNLESS YOU HAD STILL FRAME PHOTOGRAPHY.
QuoteAnd still this little sniping going on towards me?
Ron
IF YOU WANT TO
"BE IN CHARGE" YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GET USED TO A LITTLE (OR A LOT) OF SNIPING - BEING IN CHARGE MEANS SAYING NO TO SNIPERS.
T
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 14, 2009, 02:45:41 PM
OK MR. I_AM_IN_CHARGE_HERE,
T
Direct steal from..
.General Alexander Haig's statement to the press You have to know your history too! (so said tongue in cheek)
But aside from the stupid remarks a fairly decent post for a change,
More like it would be appreciated, like what is the construction of the
toroid backed coils?
Ron
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 14, 2009, 02:45:41 PM
HERE IS WHAT PEOPLE SHOULD DO TO REPLICATE THE THANE HEINS PEREPITEIA PROPERLY.
1) DON'T LISTEN TO I_RON.
2) DON'T LISTEN TO HOPTOAD.
T
Rule 17-42, In some issues, such as the above, always take the reciprocal of Thane's statement.R
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 14, 2009, 03:10:40 PM
YOU SHOWED LINKS TO A CONVENTIONAL COIL WHICH IS NOT THE SAME THING AS AN HV COIL AT THE CORRECT FREQUENCY AND YOU CAN'T SHOW CORRECT EVIDENCE OF AN HV COIL IN OPERATION UNLESS YOU HAD STILL FRAME PHOTOGRAPHY.
T
The HV coil
is a convention coil, only with more turns, a higher inductance, and greater resistance. It obeys the same rules.
Ron
Quote from: i_ron on June 14, 2009, 03:47:14 PM
But aside from the stupid remarks a fairly decent post for a change,
Ron
I_RON IN CHARGE - JUDGE - AND JURY - THIS MUST BE THE
NEW-I_RON-ORDER I HAVE BEEN HEARING ABOUT COMING FROM THE WEST COAST - I AM SKIPPING TOWN WHEN YOU GET TO BE THE EXECUTIONER THOUGH.
HERE IS THE ORIGINAL VIDEO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpIdu1lWVW0
THE ROYAL WE ARE NOW USING REAL TOROID TRANSFORMERS WITH A PAIR OF 22 GAUGE HV COILS ON THEM AND 2 - 18 POLE ROTORS INSTEAD OF WHAT WAS SHOWN IN THE VIDEO.
VERY SIMILAR TO STEVE'S SATURATING CORE VIDEO BUT WITH HV COILS.
HAIL TO THE TEET!
T
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 14, 2009, 04:07:28 PM
I_RON IN CHARGE - JUDGE - AND JURY - THIS MUST BE THE NEW-I_RON-ORDER I HAVE BEEN HEARING ABOUT COMING FROM THE WEST COAST - I AM SKIPPING TOWN WHEN YOU GET TO BE THE EXECUTIONER THOUGH.
HERE IS THE ORIGINAL VIDEO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpIdu1lWVW0
THE ROYAL WE ARE NOW USING REAL TOROID TRANSFORMERS WITH A PAIR OF 22 GAUGE HV COILS ON THEM AND 2 - 18 POLE ROTORS INSTEAD OF WHAT WAS SHOWN IN THE VIDEO.
VERY SIMILAR TO STEVE'S SATURATING CORE VIDEO BUT WITH HV COILS.
HAIL TO THE TEET!
T
Thanks for the link, but the one I was trying to refer to was the latest video with the 11? cores mounted on the toroid ring.
Hoax was just a word that came to mind but I see I used the word.
"A hoax is a deliberate attempt to dupe, deceive or trick an audience into believing, or accepting, that something is real, when the hoaxster knows it is not;"
A better word would have been "illusion"
This is the word I shall use in future when I refer to the three legged E core, OK?
Ron
Took a small break from my Sunday afternoon of mundane design work and catching up on to good ole conspiracy theory sites.
The pickup coil used is from a cheap Taiwan ringer assembly shown in the first image. The DC coil resistance is quite high for this application at 5K ohms.
The second image shows the Hall Sensor probe lined up with the mounted coil. The third image shows the overall rotor assembly (at great risk of humility).
I then spun the rotor by hand and took a few snap shots with the scope with various loads across the coil.
Image 4: Open Coil
Image 5: 4.7K
Image 6: 1.2K
Image 7: 330 Ohm
Image 8: 56 Ohm
Image 9: 12 Ohm
Red: Sensor
Blue: Coil
The magnets are laid down SN|NS
Didn't see much shift between the 1.2K Ohm load to the 12 Ohm load but I haven't run the numbers.
Take care.
nap
Quote from: i_ron on June 14, 2009, 04:00:36 PM
The HV coil is a convention coil, only with more turns, a higher inductance, and greater resistance. It obeys the same rules.
Ron
THIS IS WHERE I GET BOOTED OFF THE ISLAND BECAUSE YOU
MUST BE IN "CHARGE" OF THE EMPTY BOX - EITHER THAT OR I HAVE FALLEN INTO A WORMHOLE AND GONE BACK IN TIME.
A HV BI-FILAR SERIES WOUND COIL HAS INCREASED CAPACITANCE AND MOST LIKELY DECREASED INDUCTANCE - AND IT CERTAINLY DOES NOT OBEY THE SAME RULES.
An early example of the bifilar coil can be seen in Nikola Tesla's United States patent 512,340 of 1894. Tesla explains that in some applications (which he does not specify) the self-inductance of a conventional coil is undesired and has to be neutralised by adding external capacitors. The bifilar coil in this configuration has increased self-capacitance, thereby saving the cost of the capacitors. It is notable that this is not the kind of bifilar winding used in non-inductive wirewound resistors where the windings are wired anti-series to null out self-inductance.
ONE THING IS FOR SURE AT 500 RPM THE COILS IN OUR LATEST VIDEO DECELRATE THE ROTOR - I WILL POST A VIDEO FOR YOU IN A COUPLE OF DAYS - BUT ABOVE 1000 RPM THEY DO NOT OBEY THE SAME RULES.
AND YES RULE #1 ABOUT INVENTING MEANS DON'T LISTEN TO ME EITHER.UNLESS YOU SEE IT FOR YOURSELF.
T
Quote from: i_ron on June 14, 2009, 04:19:49 PM
A better word would have been "illusion"
This is the word I shall use in future when I refer to the three legged E core, OK?
Ron
FAIR ENOUGH AND I SHALL REFER TO YOUR COMPREHENSION WITH THE WORD
"DILLUSION":1 c : the deliberate posturing with apparent conviction that a perception or idea that is true and which appears to be true is a mirage, or the reverse, that a perception or idea that is false and is known to be false is true, until one completely succeeds in fooling oneself.
4: a stop without a farmhouse near between the woods and frozen lake the darkest evening of the year.
6 : hallucination that one can spell.
T
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 14, 2009, 02:45:41 PM
HERE IS WHAT PEOPLE SHOULD DO TO REPLICATE THE THANE HEINS PEREPITEIA PROPERLY.
2) DON'T LISTEN TO HOPTOAD.
T
Perhaps somebody should?
http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/page11.html
Cheers
Ron
Quote from: i_ron on June 14, 2009, 05:05:53 PM
Perhaps somebody should?
Cheers
Ron
Put simply,
IMHO, the acceleration effect is the result of negating oppositional forces associated with the generator core/current, and not the addition of extra energy into the system. This negation occurs due to a phase shift in the coil current and core counter-mmf, as a result of increasing frequency and /or higher than nominal output loads up to and including a short circuit.
IF THIS WERE TRUE HOW WOULD THIS EXPLAIN THE SOUND OF THE HV COILS' MAGNETIC FLUX HITTING THE ROTOR WHEN ENGAGED - SIMILAR TO A SMALL HAMMER HITTING THE ROTOR?
AND BTW - WITH A PURELY RESISTIVE LOAD ON THE COILS THE VOLTAGE AND CURRENT ARE IN PHASE PF = 1.
T
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 14, 2009, 05:53:28 PM
IF THIS WERE TRUE HOW WOULD THIS EXPLAIN THE SOUND OF THE HV COILS' MAGNETIC FLUX HITTING THE ROTOR WHEN ENGAGED - SIMILAR TO A SMALL HAMMER HITTING THE ROTOR?
Would a magnetic field sensor hooked to the OS and placed on the back side of a core that has no backplate help prove the effect?
@Thane,
Thanks for the how-to list, but it is fast getting lost in the Thane-Ron post wars.
@Ron,
Thanks for the PC OS info. Why not send Thane some close up pictures of your E core setup along with the specs? Maybe this issue can be worked out.
Regards, Larry
Hi i_ron,
I really like it that way. Now one thing with your lathe-setup :
Can you please do two changes and place the results here :
1) put a 1KiloOhm, then a 100 ohm and then a 10 ohm load on your coil as I assume that your coil is just free running.
2) place another two magnets 20 Degrees left and right of your primary magnet, so you can simulate the situation of the interaction of the +di/dt ( accessing magnet ) and -di/dt ( receeding magnet ) with your primary magnet at TDC.
3) do this with thh different loads according to 1)
This could bring us all a big step forward to really understand what is going on.
of course the coil should be the kind of a HV-coil.
Best Regards
Kator01
Quote from: i_ron on June 14, 2009, 05:05:53 PM
Perhaps somebody should?
http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/page11.html
Cheers
Ron
FROM HOPTOADS SITE: http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/When R1/Globe1 was turned on, the motor slowed a little bit,
When R2/Globe2 was turned on the motor may have slowed a little bit again, but not as much when R1/G1 was turned on. But when you turned R3/Globe3 on, there appeared to be no change in motor speed at all. You continue and find that when you turned R4/G4 the motor seemed to speed up again. Same with 5 and 6. It's almost at the speed when you started. Then to your greatest surprise, you turn the short circuit on, and the motor goes to full speed as if there were no load at all.FROM HYPERPHYSICS: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/solids/ferro.html#c5When ferromagnetic materials are used in applications like an iron-core solenoid, the relative permeability gives you an idea of the kind of multiplication of the applied magnetic field that can be achieved by having the ferromagnetic core present. So for an ordinary iron core you might expect a magnification of about 200 compared to the magnetic field produced by the solenoid current with just an air core.
This statement has exceptions and limits, since you do reach a saturation magnetization of the iron core quickly, as illustrated in the discussion of hysteresis. I_RON AND HOPTOAD WILL BE HAPPY TO KNOW THIS IS MY LAST POST HERE!
HOPTOAD AND STEVE EXPERIENCED THE SAME PHENOMENON - ONLY STEVE WAS SMART ENOUGH TO CHANGE HIS SOLID IRON CORES TO LAMINATIONS AND THEN WATCHED THE
"ACCELERATION" DISAPPEAR.
HOPTOAD USED HOLLOWED OUT IRON CORES WHICH EVENTUALLY SATURATED WITH LOAD.
SATURATED CORES REDUCE EDDY CURRENT LOSSES AND EASES MOTOR WORKLOAD BUT AS STEVE DISCOVERED IT IS NOT SUSTAINABLE.
T
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 14, 2009, 09:03:17 PM
I_RON AND HOPTOAD WILL BE HAPPY TO KNOW THIS IS MY LAST POST HERE!
So now I guess the Subject name will need to be changed to the I_Ron and Hoptoad Perepiteia Replications thread. This will be a tough sell as neither thinks it works.
Regards, Larry
Thank you Thane for all this additional info. I tought we are here to replicate his work and I mean but with all this shit coming out from people who do not posses any setup I probably would not waste my time also. I was glad T was back so we could get an advice when needed...
Personally I will go with this forward and until someone or myself proves otherwise by building a descent setup. What a drama.
Minde
So, is this OU, or just a highly efficient electric motor?
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 14, 2009, 09:03:17 PM
HOPTOAD AND STEVE EXPERIENCED THE SAME PHENOMENON - ONLY STEVE WAS SMART ENOUGH TO CHANGE HIS SOLID IRON CORES TO LAMINATIONS AND THEN WATCHED THE
"ACCELERATION" DISAPPEAR.
HOPTOAD USED HOLLOWED OUT IRON CORES WHICH EVENTUALLY SATURATED WITH LOAD.
SATURATED CORES REDUCE EDDY CURRENT LOSSES AND EASES MOTOR WORKLOAD BUT AS STEVE DISCOVERED IT IS NOT SUSTAINABLE.
T
Actually, just like Thane's, my research started with solid iron cores. I succeeded in getting the apparent "acceleration" effect, but the electrical output was poor.
Then I switched to laminated cores and achieved a greater electrical output and still succeeded in getting apparent "acceleration" to occur.
But the output results were even better when I switched from laminates to hollow
alloy cores, and the "acceleration" effect still occurred.
Cheers
Hi at all,
Gentlemen, i like to think we are on the same side here. Afterall we are all in pursue of electrical OU. Anyway..
@ Mr Thane.
You said that currently you use biffilar (parallel wound) series connected coils. Indeed this setup boosts coil's capacitance to a number of magnitude degrees. (thousands if not millions, depends on voltage)
But, my experience with it yielded not any special result. On the contrary parallel wound, parallel connected i saw some very encouraging ones that i posted earlier.
SInce you have been thoroughly experimenting with this setup can you please enlighten the situation? (parallel wound coils - series connected)
I notice you mentioned that magnet strenth is one of the factors that HV coils are not working?
My setup has 1'' diameter neos double stacked. Field strenth is quite strong in the face. I use a typical 8-10mm gap (magnet-coil core) Maybe is it too little?
Note that my rotor (6 magnets all N out) has the same frequency capabilities/rpm as an 12 pole magnet rotor of alternating polarity. (even though power generation is half)
Suggestions are always welcomed
Another idea of Mr T that i was thinking too past weekend. How about one skillfull enough to get an Permanent Magnet Alternator and rewire it (what a struggle!) according Perepiteia's principles. (all laminations, all coils "grounded"/ magnetic flux closed looped etc) This will be the utmost "thing".
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps: Peace brothers ;D
@HT
Nice to hear you get acceleration. Would you mind to post a picture of your setup?
Minde
Hi all
I made an important message to the group that was deleted by the moderator... feel free to write to me for a copy
All the best
Ron P
Unfortunately I knew this would happen. Ultimately it comes down to money.
Now whoever is backing Thane, doesn't want the technology to be leaked, so they have to do all in their interest to stop people from replicating it, (if people can replicate it, then exclusivity becomes useless.)
You think about the whole free energy thing. You can use it to get you started, but once you go your own seperate ways, thats it, you're on your own. Investers won't be happy if you've been pouring away your trade secrets.
This is how i'm going to do mine: I'm not really happy about giving too much info away, so I try to keep my stuff as breif as possible. The main device is now complete, but I still need the rotors to be made and to purchase the rest of the mags. Going by how i've figured this out, I don't think i'll get acceleration, but at least whatever top speed I can get it to spin at, it should hopefully stay there.
This thing has been spent too long in the making for someone to take the idea from me. Sad I know, but unfortunatley, that's the way it works.
My device isn't copying Thanes in any way and tbh I don't think i'd like to. He got a wee bit nasty in the end, kinda Gollum like if you will.
Pagey out.............................. PEACE!
Quote from: i_ron on June 15, 2009, 11:16:56 AM
Hi all
I made an important message to the group that was deleted by the moderator... feel free to write to me for a copy
All the best
Ron P
Thank you for the copy of the post. I thought I had read your post on this thread than an hour or so later I could not find it again. I thought that you had deleted it or I was mistaken and it was in another thread. So it would seem that any progress that we may gather as a group on this forum is bound to be twisted, erased or edited by anyone with moderator privileges even if those privileges were meant only for another thread. How sad :(
Given that insight I will just try making progress on my own with posting here occasionally. I still feel that there is some merit in this avenue of research even if there are conflicting theories of what is causing it. If I do get something to work I really do not care what theory covers it. I had a couple of theories of my own in the old thread but a theory is only that.. a theory... It will still be a theory until a physical unit gets built that either proves or disproves the theory. I had hoped that with Thane's return we could have gotten some questions answered about building a working physical unit but that does not appear to be the case. We seem to be back in chaos again. I can now understand the reasons we are in chaos from I_Rons missing post.
@i_ron
Thanks also for your PM and copy. I also had read and noticed it was removed. During these last few pages I decided to take a back seat. I have had enough with high impact threads since that last Mylow stint. Phewwww. I need a break or better still a vacation.
Your last post does infer that this has now entered into the realm of commercialism and therefore we do have to be somewhat carefull of the future information given on this as there can always be a chance that the information could be misleading. Not another saga PLEASE. Pretty please with candy on top.
For builders, (I will try it soon enough - lol - let me just play with my Mylow wheel first - @i_ron how much for a wheel - lol), there is nothing that can stop you from working on the Perepetia because of three major points;
1) It is now open source.
2) It has not be proven OU so it does require more R&D and an open source group effort will move things along much faster, if the distractions are limited.
3) I have a funny feeling that the final working device will not resemble the current device once all the necessary changes (re: flyback capturing prime mover) and improvements are made.
So, @i_ron, I do not see why you should leave the thread when you are the one that started it. We started this thread because @TH was not heard from for over a month and wanted to leave his thread alone. So just stick with it will y'a. Besides, I have a whole load of questions that need to be answered that have not been answered thus far.
Soon.
wattsup
I dont think this threead belongs to anyone since quite a few people requested to freeze the old one before nay sayers trashed it completely. When T left all these people started to post their own theories without having any device to back up their story. Our wish was granted and this thread created by harti.
Minde
Quote from: wattsup on June 15, 2009, 01:40:01 PM
@i_ron
So, @i_ron, I do not see why you should leave the thread when you are the one that started it. We started this thread because @TH was not heard from for over a month and wanted to leave his thread alone. So just stick with it will y'a. Besides, I have a whole load of questions that need to be answered that have not been answered thus far.
I would agree except what is the point when someone with moderator privileges deletes post even if the thread was not started by that moderator. If possible Stefan should set this thread so only he can delete post or maybe Stefan should review Thane's moderator privileges.
I also agree that future information from Thane might be tainted since Thane is going in the commercial direction and it would serve his purpose to limit information.
Quote from: hydrocontrol on June 15, 2009, 02:57:11 PM
I would agree except what is the point when someone with moderator privileges deletes post even if the thread was not started by that moderator. If possible Stephan should set this thread so only he can delete post or maybe Stephan should review Thane's moderator privileges.
I also agree that future information from Thane might be tainted since Thane is going in the commercial direction and it would serve his purpose to limit information.
I would like to thank all of you for your support and encouragement!
I am pleased to see so many of you can see what just took place here. This is not my cup of tea and I am at a loss as to how to handle this sort of attack.
As one member wrote me, this information about the companies was in the PP Presentation that Thane himself posted. He has sent it to several people including a Star reported so I see no reason for him to delete it... other than my conclusion was too close to the truth for him.
As you may remember, when I started posting my results on the old list he turned against me most visciously and withheld the promised e core material. And he stopped California Power from sending me this material.
So really it came as no surprise this time when he jumped in with both feet and tried to marginalize hoptoad and myself.
It was a mistake for Stefan to leave him with moderator status. Again I remember when a whole block of critical posts went missing from the old list. He lied at that time and said he didn't know how it happened.
So consider the source on this link but he does raise some pertinent points.
http://www.sciscoop.com/perepiteia-explanation.pdf
Also reread deboss and linderman on...
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Talk:Directory:Perepiteia_Generator_by_Potential_Difference_Inc
And reread my analysis of the tri core... you should be more willing to accept the true potential of his invention
Ron
I'm still trying to get over it. Weird how somebody like Thane could do that and be childish about it rather than fess up that he can't allow his work to be repeated. If he would have done that, then fair doos. Admittedly, I'm not far off from getting mine completed. I would really love to post pics, but unfortunately, I've worked too hard on this project for it to be taken over. It may seem like greed, but I have posted my reasons elsewhere. I will be looking at getting help from a bigger company to help me achieve my dreams.
I wish everybody luck. And try not to copy Thanes work too much, you never know, you may be treading into copyright infringement territory. Going by what I've seen here in the last few days, it's possible.
Quote from: i_ron on June 15, 2009, 03:57:41 PM
Also reread deboss and linderman on...
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Talk:Directory:Perepiteia_Generator_by_Potential_Difference_Inc
Ron
They make some interesting points but they are from Feb 2008 which was way before Thane was using a transformer to short the HV coil causing acceleration while at the same time driving a couple of bulbs from just one coil/core. I am not so sure the observations back then apply now. If I were to believe them then what would be the point of a replication thread since they are convinced it is all a H... I mean "Illusion".
Quote from: hydrocontrol on June 15, 2009, 04:36:41 PM
They make some interesting points but they are from Feb 2008 which was way before Thane was using a transformer to short the HV coil causing acceleration while at the same time driving a couple of bulbs from just one coil/core. I am not so sure the observations back then apply now. If I were to believe them then what would be the point of a replication thread since they are convinced it is all a H... I mean "Illusion".
This is true... but don't forget that all the readings are done on DMM's.
I found that mine read nearly 30% high at the Hz this is turning.
Ron
Quote from: i_ron on June 15, 2009, 05:09:08 PM
This is true... but don't forget that all the readings are done on DMM's.
I found that mine read nearly 30% high at the Hz this is turning.
Ron
So very true about those wally world DMM's. There are many solutions to overcome the cheap DMM's. One of the easiest is not to use cheap DMM's but that comes at a price. The other is to rectify the output and feed to a cap to smooth the output before feeding a cheap DMM so the cheap DMM can handle it. Of course the ultimate would be to have the output feed the input without a "battery" (maybe a supercap). Anyway I will just continue on building and experimenting. I still think this holds more promise than the "illusion" Mylow motor.
Quote from: hydrocontrol on June 15, 2009, 05:28:46 PM
Anyway I will just continue on building and experimenting. I still think this holds more promise than the "illusion" Mylow motor.
Commendable attitude, I wish you and all with a project underway good luck and hope to hear one day of your successes!
Ron
LoL guys...
This thread in the most explicit way proved why OU machines cannot be made at mass replication.
Guys... do you still believe that Peripeteia is not an potential OU machine? What's your role here??
I believe perepiteia is the very basis of a real OU machine.
How can i say that?
Instead of having blind trust in Inventor's saying i do my homework. (so far i conclude inventor is reporting true results, even tho mr T theories are...theories til proven facts)
Has any of you study Bedini's Free energy generator? Kromrey's generator? Muller alternators? etc etc They ALL operate on the very same principle.
They are all, say, internal combustion engines but the one is Diesel powered, the other gas powered the other two stroke etc. They differ only in their configuration. WORKING PRINCIPLE IS THE SAME.
So, we have two options here... We are dicking around each one alone and do nothing or combine forces (knowledge form experiments). Choice is yours
regards,
Baroutologos
ps: commercialization of such technology is a stupid man's dream. This primitive technology exists some 200+ years and yet failed to even be officially PROVEN that exists! The best bet for anyone who has commercial interests in such technology is to go small and "camouflaged" i.e. superefficient motors, looooooww oil consumption power generators etc
Quote from: baroutologos on June 16, 2009, 03:39:46 AM
LoL guys...
So, we have two options here... We are dicking around each one alone and do nothing or combine forces (knowledge form experiments). Choice is yours
Third option; you can dick around each and alone, experience your successes or failures, then share and combine your accumulated knowledge.
Keep experimenting all.. I've been squirreling away small savings, and in another month or two, I'm hoping to purchase a mini bench steel lathe. ........ I've been wanting to get back to where I left off in 2001 with my own original research ever since I first came upon thane's thread. There is plenty of reason to continue research on open systems, and thane has shown that semi closed and closed systems can also exhibit this behaviour, and are also worthy of exploration.
In all the debate that has centred around core drag, what has once been stated but overlooked by most, is that in a conventional system under load, it is
not the core drag that produces the greatest losses or breaking under load,
it is the counter mmf arising from current produced in the coils. In other words, the current you wish to use to perform external work is the greatest contributor to the normal breaking effect of a load.
Yet in this peculiar effect that we have all seen,
both the core drag
and counter mmf breaking caused by current to an external load (especially an extreme load like S/C) can be seen as effectively reduced, if not completely nulled.
The main point to me is this: although it's not always obvious because of the smooth and easy turning of a conventional generator setup with no load, a conventional generator still has core drag at running speed, even with no load, and the core drag is never neutralized! And when you start to use or increase current, you always pay the same price - higher consumption, and ever greater breaking.
In my experiments dealing with open magnetic systems, I saw, by comparison to a "conventional" closed magnetic system, that there is good reason to be optimistic about potential power gains across broader load ranges, through better efficiencies at reduced costs. And after all that has been shared here thus far, I still do.
Keep on Keepin on ... Cheers and KneeDeep
Quote from: i_ron on June 15, 2009, 03:57:41 PM
So consider the source on this link but he does raise some pertinent points.
http://www.sciscoop.com/perepiteia-explanation.pdf
Also reread deboss and linderman on...
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Talk:Directory:Perepiteia_Generator_by_Potential_Difference_Inc
Actually releasing this old information again, that has been successfully disproved in the past, has made all the Energy Barron's very happy and helps to mislead those new to Thane's generator. Don't bother asking me to disprove as I refuse to go down that path again.
Before Thane left his original site, he had shown partial testing of a generator design that would have definitely been OU when he had received all the correct parts. He was using EI type transformers and they are less efficient than the toroid type. Parts like large toroid transformers are very expensive and he would have first orders one with his best specifications for maximum performance. That would be tested, then likely refined and reordered. When one worked correctly than the other seven would be orders and tested. It is likely that we won't see those results now. Thanks tag team!
I am not going to speak for Thane as to why he deleted Ron's post. But based on past experience I have a good idea why based on the tag team harassing him into a frenzy.
Just keep in mind that Thane has always expressed his desire to help the common man from the suppression of the Energy barons. Also, he had freely shown many of his designs and performances of his test.
Regards, Larry
Quote from: LarryC on June 16, 2009, 06:20:42 PM
Actually releasing this old information again, that has been successfully disproved in the past,
Regards, Larry
Gosh Larry, that was old stuff... here is some newer stuff, OK?
"Now concerning those new videos that claim to use DC motors: Your videos are not useful as records of scientific experiments, because they do not provide enough information for anybody to reproduce your results. I need to know what equipment you used. Unlike the Ryobi motor, these have no unique identifying features. As a minimum, please provide the manufacturer and model number of the DC motor you say was used in your laboratory. Also, the manufacturer and model number of the power supply used to drive that motor. I need to study the datasheets for these items before commenting further on these particular videos. I especially require the speed-torque curves. Obviously you must have the speed-torque and speed-current curves already, right? Without them, it was impossible for you to delineate which of the observed behaviours were due to the motor, and which are due to the Perepiteia machine.
***
What I would like to know with specificity are the identity of your DC motor, how its stator and armature coils are wired, its control system, and its characteristic curves for the way it is wired: the speed-torque, torque-current, and speed-current relationships. That’s because the behaviour of your DC motor is the only part of your work that I don’t understand yet. You have not been willing to provide that information so far. In fact, you have never answered even one of the questions I posed in my letters here (even simple ones e.g. “Is the motor a Lab-Volt 8211?â€)
***
[note information was asked for… none given, see below]
June 1st, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Sorry again you are actually an ignorant whiner.
You can babble your baloney for years and get nowhere â€" so I invite you to come to the lab at Ottawa University at your convenience and remove your ignorance. That is why we are there!
I will give you the 2 hours required to explain the technology. Then you can serve your readers properly by writing an article that is accurate, truthful and factually correct.
So far you have done none of this and it is your journalistic integrity that is being damaged here. So if you want to clean up your act â€" take the first step.
Cheers
Thane
***
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:28 pm
For more than a year now I have been posting information and every single development here:
ttp://www.overunity.com/index.php?board=109.0
There are 480 pages of information, photos and replication instructions,
People all over the world are replicating the technology and sharing.
Cheers
Thane
***
.†Actually, Heins has had more intelligent people look at the device who did tell him that the device doesn’t work and some who explained why not, but Heins is not willing to admit to these less-than-investor-friendly encounters. As I said, he’s very selective in the information he releases.
No serious scientists that I know of accept Heins’ back-EMF theory because it has been experimentally disproved. If you want to see an example of such a publication, see my paper here and follow-up posts. Detailed quantitative experiments are not available because Heins does not accept having them carried out.
***
Now what about Heins’ own “experiments†shown on video? Whatever they do show, they are useless for testing his theory, and also useless for evaluation the efficiency of his generator. If you have a motor and generator attached to each other, and you measure the (electrical) power going into the motor and the (electrical) power coming out of the generator, but not the (mechanical) power being transfered from the motor to the generator, then you do not know which machine is causing your observations. It is a useless experiment. I have shown in my paper that acceleration with declining power consumption is a normal feature of NEMA class A and B single phase induction motor operation under the conditions Heins uses in his lab. Why reject these facts? They come straight from the website of a reliable disinterested party, Reliance Motors. A similar acceleration effect can happen under some conditions with DC motors, especially if they are series-wired instead of shunt-wired. That is why I’ve been pressing Mr. Heins for more information on his DC motor, but I think he realizes his back is to the wall, so he’s being uncooperative. The case for conducting dynamometer tests is precisely that they separate the motor and generator contributions to the results. Again, Mr. Heins is reluctant to accept this testing, especially not be independent third parties free to publish the results, probably because he’s still fishing for investors who don’t do technical audits of inventions before investing in them."
Ron why are you trying so hard?
Quote from: LarryC on June 16, 2009, 06:20:42 PM
I am not going to speak for Thane as to why he deleted Ron's post. But based on past experience I have a good idea why based on the tag team harassing him into a frenzy.
Regards, Larry
Had an interesting post from one of the list members to day.
Here is the essence of his post...
(Post to the Star reporter on May 29th)
"I think Thane Heins has been bought out by a larger company.
I hope you are working on the story".
The answer from the Star reporter:
"I can assure you he hasn't".Ron
Quote from: i_ron on June 16, 2009, 11:24:44 PM
Gosh Larry, that was old stuff... here is some newer stuff, OK?
"Now concerning those new videos that claim to use DC motors: Your videos are not useful as records of scientific experiments, because they do not provide enough information for anybody to reproduce your results. I need to know what equipment you used. Unlike the Ryobi motor, these have no unique identifying features. As a minimum, please provide the manufacturer and model number of the DC motor you say was used in your laboratory. Also, the manufacturer and model number of the power supply used to drive that motor. I need to study the datasheets for these items before commenting further on these particular videos. I especially require the speed-torque curves. Obviously you must have the speed-torque and speed-current curves already, right? Without them, it was impossible for you to delineate which of the observed behaviours were due to the motor, and which are due to the Perepiteia machine.
***
What I would like to know with specificity are the identity of your DC motor, how its stator and armature coils are wired, its control system, and its characteristic curves for the way it is wired: the speed-torque, torque-current, and speed-current relationships. That’s because the behaviour of your DC motor is the only part of your work that I don’t understand yet. You have not been willing to provide that information so far. In fact, you have never answered even one of the questions I posed in my letters here (even simple ones e.g. “Is the motor a Lab-Volt 8211?â€)
***
I'm going to answer this in two parts, first the DC motor portion as stated above. Any body with knowledge of DC motor characteristic would know the matching AC motor characteristics, which means they would know what type of DC motor is required. So, why are you asking such a obivious question? Do you really want the answer?
Regards, Larrry
Ok, this is it.
I demand from moderator just to KICK OUT all people who constantly criticize Peripeteia. (get the f....ck out of here)
This is a replication thread omg. Go open one of yours named "Why Thane's pereipeteia can never work".
If anyone read the first major thread from beggining to end is full of criticism even though remarkable progress and results given. WTF you want more??
Go play tetris.
If moderator does not take action, i will make my OWN thread of replication and kick out all criticism. That's said democratically.
Regarding Thane's attitude, perhaps in the worst case scenario he is under a confidential agreement and cannot disclose much of modern advances. But from what i read so far what the man is saying are in allignment with his work.
Who will criticize him? Tell me one of his critics what does he offered to the public? Thane offered Peripeteia. You offered what? Criticism?
Get lost
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps: pissed
I can't believe this whole thing has turned into a flame war, it's bloody ridiculous coming from what I would assume are professionals.
I'm still hoping this hasn't come from my core question, (I'll feel bloody awkward if it is.)
I'm not as knowledgeable as you lot, so I can't/won't pass judgement on Thanes theories, but I do know mine is fundamentally different, I'm still waiting on word back from one company for parts and I've got in touch with a BIG company to see if they're interested in my ideas.
As for my design, I'm not cheating by using pre-made motors/generators, everything is hand built. By doing that I can put the motor and generator on the same shaft. I can't wait to get this beauty finished!
P.S. Don't feed the trolls. :)
Quote from: baroutologos on June 17, 2009, 02:48:08 AM
Ok, this is it.
Regarding Thane's attitude, perhaps in the worst case scenario he is under a confidential agreement and cannot disclose much of modern advances. But from what i read so far what the man is saying are in allignment with his work.
Who will criticize him? Tell me one of his critics what does he offered to the public? Thane offered Peripeteia. You offered what? Criticism?
Get lost
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps: pissed
TO CLEAR UP A COUPLE OF THINGS...
1) I DELETED RON'S POST BECAUSE IT UNFAIRLY IDENTIFIED SOMEONE (EVEN THOUGH THE ACTUAL NAME WAS BLACKED OUT). YES IT WAS SENT TO TYLER HAMILTON BUT TYLER HAS INTEGRITY AND DOES NOT PUBLISH A PERSON'S NAME WITHOUT PERMISSION. IT WAS ALSO SENT TO I_RON
IN CONFIDENCE OR SO I THOUGHT. SO I DELETED IT IN AN ATTEMPT TO PROTECT SOMEONE'S IDENTITY - THIS IS THE SECOND TIME AND I WON'T MAKE THE MISTAKE OF TRUSTING I_RON AGAIN BACAUSE ANYTHING GOES WHEN HE IS ANGRY.
ALSO I DID NOT STOP ANYONE FROM SENDING ANYTHING (CORES) TO I_RON - THIS IS JUST A LIE.
2) IF I DIDN'T KNOW BETTER I WOULD SAY HOPTOAD IS A SPOOK WHO ONLY WANTS TO DISTRACT PEOPLE - WHICH IS A REAL SHAME CAUSE HE KNOW HIS STUFF INSIDE AND OUT.
"When R1/Globe1 was turned on, the motor slowed a little bit, When R2/Globe2 was turned on the motor may have slowed a little bit again, but not as much when R1/G1 was turned on. But when you turned R3/Globe3 on, there appeared to be no change in motor speed at all. You continue and find that when you turned R4/G4 the motor seemed to speed up again. Same with 5 and 6. It's almost at the speed when you started. Then to your greatest surprise, you turn the short circuit on, and the motor goes to full speed as if there were no load at all."
-information by Hoptoads - 25/09/2007
FOR ANYONE WHO KNOWS - THIS IS CLASSIC CORE SATURATION. GRADUALLY THE CORE FILLS UP WITH BACK EMF INDUCED FLUX AND ROTOR CORE DRAG IS REDUCED BECAUSE LESS AND LESS ROTOR FLUX CAN ENETER THE CORES. IT IS INTERESTING BUT EVENTUALLY THE CORES WILL OVERHEAT.
3)
BACK TO PEREPITEIA REPLICATIONSTHERE IS SOMETHING THAT EVERYONE SHOULD BE AWARE OF - BELIEVING IS SEEING IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN SOMETHING YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO SEE IT EVEN IF YOU TRIP OVER IT.
THE FINAL AND MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU WANT TO LOOK FOR IN YOUR REPLICATIONS IS THE SOUND THE HV COIL DISCHARGING MAGNETIC FIELD MAKES WHEN IT HITS I_RON'S ROTOR.I_RON'S ROTOR OPENNED MANY NEW DOORS BUT THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT.
IF YOU GET THINGS RIGHT - YOU WILL ACTUALLY HEAR THE MAGNETIC FIELD PINGING OFF THE ROTOR WHEN THE HV COIL IS ENGAGED - JUST BEFORE ACCELERATION HAPPENS. (DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT SEND GOTOLUC A PM AND HE WILL CONFIRM THIS). IT SCARED THE CRAP OUT OF ME THE FIRST TIME I HEARD IT.
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?
AS I HAVE SAID THE HV COIL IS ACTUALLY A CAPACITOR UNDER THE
CORRECT CONDITIONS.
A CAPACITOR DISCHAGES INSTANTLY BUT ONLY AT TDC.
SO THE SOUND OF FLUX HITTING THE ROTOR IS THE CAPACITOR STORING ENERGY AND THEN RELEASING IT ALL AT ONCE. - YOU WON'T GET THIS SOUND WITH A TYPICAL COIL THAT IS ACTING AS AN INDUCTOR PRODUCING AND RELEASING A "GRADUAL" MAGNETIC FIELD.
AND YOU WON'T GET THIS SOUND IF THE CORES "DISAPPEAR" MAGNETICALLY WHEN ENGAGED.
YOU WON'T GET THIS SOUND IF THE MOTOR IS CAUSING ACCELERATION - END OF STORY.
SO PEOPLE CAN ARGUE WITH ME OR JUST GO AND
REPLICATE THEMSELVES.
4) I HAVE NOT SIGNED ANY CONFIDENTUALITY AGREEMENTS AND WILL NOT. I AM IN A PUBLIC UNIVERSITY AND GIVE PUBLIC DEMOS TO ANYONE ANY EVERYONE WHO ASKS WITHOUT QUESTION - OFTEN I DON'T EVEN ASK WHO THEY ARE - I HAVE NEVER EVER SAID NO AND I ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO "LOOK UNDER THE TABLE" - TAKE NOTES - PART NUMBERS ETC.
FINALLY I ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO "STEAL" THE TECHNOLOGY IF THEY WISH.
I CAN'T DO MORE THAN THIS.
T
PS
IF YOU PEOPLE WANT IT I WILL GO BACK AND DELETE ALL THE NON-REPLICATION POSTS AND CLEAN THIS THREAD UP AND WE CAN GET THINGS BACK ON TRACK FOR THE SINCERE LEARNERS AND I WILL CONTINUE TO DELETE NON-REPLICATION POSTS IF DESIRED.
I am 100% with you mr T.
Time to clean this up. Its a replicator thread, not chat log.
You can start by deleting my post(s).
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps: Respect the inventor
Quote from: baroutologos on June 17, 2009, 02:48:08 AM
Ok, this is it.
I demand from moderator just to KICK OUT all people who constantly criticize Peripeteia. (get the f....ck out of here)
This is a replication thread omg. Go open one of yours named "Why Thane's pereipeteia can never work".
If anyone read the first major thread from beggining to end is full of criticism even though remarkable progress and results given. WTF you want more??
Go play tetris.
If moderator does not take action, i will make my OWN thread of replication and kick out all criticism. That's said democratically.
Regarding Thane's attitude, perhaps in the worst case scenario he is under a confidential agreement and cannot disclose much of modern advances. But from what i read so far what the man is saying are in allignment with his work.
Who will criticize him? Tell me one of his critics what does he offered to the public? Thane offered Peripeteia. You offered what? Criticism?
Get lost
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps: pissed
Thank You Baroutologos. I do get an impression also that i_ron and HT are trying so HARD (suspiciously too hard) to disprove Ts work. What the f is up guys? Give others a chance to try replicate or go create another topic as Baroutologos suggested. Why trash this one as well?
I support Thane as well. Regards Minde
Quote from: minde4000 on June 17, 2009, 09:40:16 AM
Thank You Baroutologos. I do get an impression also that i_ron and HT are trying so HARD (suspiciously too hard) to disprove Ts work. What the f is up guys? Give others a chance to try replicate or go create another topic as Baroutologos suggested. Why trash this one as well?
I support Thane as well.
Regards Minde
I posted my experiments.
It is up to you to examine the evidence.
I have spoken the truth
One day you will seeRon P
@i_ron
Ya we will. Need more time. I think we should wait till more ppl replicate this and post their findings. My personal rotor is still at magnet glueing stage.
Thanks for sharing results Ron.
Regards Minde
Quote from: baroutologos on June 17, 2009, 02:48:08 AM
Ok, this is it.
I demand from moderator just to KICK OUT all people who constantly criticize Peripeteia. (get the f....ck out of here)
This is a replication thread omg. Go open one of yours named "Why Thane's pereipeteia can never work".
If anyone read the first major thread from beggining to end is full of criticism even though remarkable progress and results given. WTF you want more??
Go play tetris.
If moderator does not take action, i will make my OWN thread of replication and kick out all criticism. That's said democratically.
Regarding Thane's attitude, perhaps in the worst case scenario he is under a confidential agreement and cannot disclose much of modern advances. But from what i read so far what the man is saying are in allignment with his work.
Who will criticize him? Tell me one of his critics what does he offered to the public? Thane offered Peripeteia. You offered what? Criticism?
Get lost
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps: pissed
Calm down, this is supposed to be an adult discussion group. I have presented my evidence and you choose to ignore it. It is your job now to examine the evidence and check that my methodology was correct, and that I didn’t make any mistakes. If the evidence is correct then you should resist an emotional denial and make the necessary adult readjustment of your thinking.
Ron
Quote from: LarryC on June 17, 2009, 12:45:10 AM
I'm going to answer this in two parts, first the DC motor portion as stated above. Any body with knowledge of DC motor characteristic would know the matching AC motor characteristics, which means they would know what type of DC motor is required. So, why are you asking such a obivious question? Do you really want the answer?
Regards, Larrry
Larry, that was in quotation marks, it was not me asking the questions.
While Thane was not posting here he was posting on that group. The addy has already been posted on this list so I didn't repeat it.
What I was attempting to draw you attention to was the guy was asking for addition information but T's response was just to call the guy a loser.
Same with the first post with the "old" info, no information is ever given and the person, is deliberately abused and marginalized. There is a pattern, I was just trying to get you to see it. I did not say this on Thane's list, out of politeness, but don't feel this restriction on a list I started.
eg: PB was an intelligent, thinking, investigator, the questions he asked were valid and thoughtful, yet what was the response?
Ron
Quote from: minde4000 on June 17, 2009, 11:43:58 AM
@i_ron
Ya we will. Need more time. I think we should wait till more ppl replicate this and post their findings. My personal rotor is still at magnet glueing stage.
Thanks for sharing results Ron.
Regards Minde
Very reasonable, I agree. What has happened here is I have placed myself to far in front of the group. I myself thought as the rest when I started this group. But the experiments I have done have caused me to re examine my thinking... especially in view of the expected thanks I should have got for continuing the 'work' with this list ...the real result was the same treatment meeted out to dboss, polar breeze, natan and all the ones who question.
I saw the same pattern on mylow where some stuck like glue to mylow even when the string was shown and the speed graphs were disclosed some people were still defending him and asking that these "dissenters" be boiled in oil and banned!
But I think I have made my point... the rest is up to you guys...
Take Care,
Ron
Quote from: Pageygeeza on June 17, 2009, 04:34:08 AM
I can't believe this whole thing has turned into a flame war, it's bloody ridiculous coming from what I would assume are professionals.
I'm still hoping this hasn't come from my core question, (I'll feel bloody awkward if it is.)
I'm not as knowledgeable as you lot, so I can't/won't pass judgement on Thanes theories, but I do know mine is fundamentally different, I'm still waiting on word back from one company for parts and I've got in touch with a BIG company to see if they're interested in my ideas.
As for my design, I'm not cheating by using pre-made motors/generators, everything is hand built. By doing that I can put the motor and generator on the same shaft. I can't wait to get this beauty finished!
P.S. Don't feed the trolls. :)
Just a case of don't shoot the messenger.
And I look forward to seeing your work!
Ron
That last post of Thane's reminds me of why I am following this (in part) he wants to do the right thing. As an educator I understand some of Thane's frustration when something is repeated for the Nth time and the same questions continue to arise. I learned a long time ago that it wasn't the audience that didn't understand, but the I wasn't teaching effectively. A lot of questions are brought up that Thane tends to brush off with ridicule. I know it is painful, but a scientific dismissal of a "stupid question" with a properly outlined answer does a lot to shut up the annoying students. Just passing it over as unimportant or saying the point was missed only piques the students interest in trying to figure out what I am hiding, or erodes confidence that I know what I am talking about. Personally HT, i_Ron, and Thane are all needed. HT brings the historical perspective, i_Ron is the practicing skeptic (not just rhetorical, which is of no use like me), and Thane the bull in the experimental china shop, charging forward to get 'er done, with little time left behind for the speculation 'because it works'.
Anyway fun as always, but a little less flaming and more scientific banter would be a good change. I think we are all hoping for the same thing, at least we can agree on that, and when disagreements arise come back to that point and mover forward. At least in this thread I think it would be a travesty if someone left due to the banter. There is something here, lets figure it out and "can't we all just get along"
Edit: Sorry I was starting to get too rude so have deleted my post
To be more believable, future postings should be in the format, motor/rotor draw with no core for a baseline, draw with the core, draw with the hv coil shorted. As it is the inventor’s theory that the HV coil is driving the rotor the acceptable proving evidence would show…
1) core drag reduced to zero or significantly below
2) acceleration, in the case of an induction motor, to over sync speed
3) the rotor continuing to run after being disconnected from the motor.
4) Output rectified to DC showing greater output than input
Ron
@Ron,
I'll let Baroutologos respond to you on your first statement.
"This is not directed solely at you, but at to all the people on the list like Larry and yourself who support Mr Heins 100%, yet without haveing one shred of evidence to support this caim… and despite any evidence to the contrary."
I've never supported T 100%, in fact I had some doubts for a while after my testing, even though they did work, but I did not know for sure the reason. But, when I seen (last fall) that Thane was getting the rotor RPM higher at a particular voltage with the core then is possible without a core in front of the rotor. I believed he had found a possible key to OU.
"To be more believable, future postings should be in the format, motor/rotor draw with no core for a baseline, draw with the core, draw with the hv coil shorted. As it is the inventor’s theory that the HV coil is driving the rotor the acceptable proving evidence would show…
1) core drag reduced to zero or significantly below
2) acceleration, in the case of an induction motor, to over sync speed
3) the rotor continuing to run after being disconnected from the motor.
4) Output rectified to DC showing greater output than input"
What kind of delusional God trip are you on? You seem to be trying to get someone to attack you, just to prove your earlier point.
@All,
But the good news is LarryC has inherited a 6" Ryobi bench grinder. Will test with my old core and rotor, and compare results to my original testing.
Note Thane, that my old Home Depot core was designed to match the size of the magnets. So was my difference in threshold speed due to the cheap higher HP Fred's motor or the core shape?
Regards, Larry
Quote from: LarryC on June 17, 2009, 07:42:06 PM
I've never supported T 100%, in fact I had some doubts for a while after my testing, even though they did work, but I did not know for sure the reason. But, when I seen (last fall) that Thane was getting the rotor RPM higher at a particular voltage with the core then is possible without a core in front of the rotor. I believed he had found a possible key to OU.
THIS WAS DONE WITH A 4 POLE SPLIT PHASE INDUCTION MOTOR...
FOR BETTER RESULTS - I WOULD SUGGEST PEOPLE USE A 4 POLE MOTOR RATHER THAN THE 2 POLE RYOBI.
Quote"To be more believable, future postings should be in the format, motor/rotor draw with no core for a baseline, draw with the core, draw with the hv coil shorted. As it is the inventor’s theory that the HV coil is driving the rotor the acceptable proving evidence would show…
BEEN THERE DONE THAT SEE SPLIT PHASE MOTOR TESTS FROM A YEAR AGO!
QuoteNote Thane, that my old Home Depot core was designed to match the size of the magnets. So was my difference in threshold speed due to the cheap higher HP Fred's motor or the core shape?
Regards, Larry
IT WAS MOST LIKELY DUE TO THE COIL WIRE GAUGE CHOICE AND THE CHEAP CORES.
IF THE CORE HYSTERESIS CURVE IS TOO WIDE THE CORE WILL NOT REACT FAST ENOUGH AND CORE LOSSES (RELUCTANCE & COERCIVE FORCE REQUIREMENTS) WILL CONSUME THE HV COIL DISCHARGING MAGNETIC FIELD AND NOT IMPACT THE ROTOR FULLY.
MY SUGGESTION GET A MOT TRANSFORMER AND USE THE "I" PORTION AND MACHINE WIND A 30 GAUGE COIL FIRST (HAS TO BE TIGHT OR IT WON'T WORK WELL - TRY A HAND DRILL HERE) - MAKE YOUR COIL 1/2 INCH SQUARE AND ABOUT 3 INCHES LONG - MAKE SURE THE LAMINATION GRAIN IS CORRECT - I.E. ROTOR MAGNET CUTS THROUGH ALL THE LAMINATES EQUALLY NOT CUTTING ACROSS.
CHEERS
T
PS
SAFE YOUR LIGHT BULBS
A question to Inventor:
From your experimental experience so far what's your view about HV geometry:
They work better if they are thick and short (say same thickness to length or more) or if they are elongated and narrow (consequently)?
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: baroutologos on June 18, 2009, 03:01:32 AM
A question to Inventor:
From your experimental experience so far what's your view about HV geometry:
They work better if they are thick and short (say same thickness to length or more) or if they are elongated and narrow (consequently)?
Regards,
Baroutologos
I WOULD THINK OF IT IN TERMS OF WHAT KIND OF REACTION ARE YOU LOOKING TO CREATE.
YOU ARE STORING ENERGY IN THE COIL CAPACITANCE AND DISCHARGING IT THROUGH THE COIL - I THINK BOTH TYPES EACH HAVE THEIR OWN MERITS - BUT I PREFER A LONGER CORE.
THE COIL THICKNESS/LENGTH IS GOING TO DETERMINE COIL INDUCTANCE. I WOULD SUGGEST THAT YOU WIND IDENTICAL COILS ON DIFFERENT BOBBINS AND INTERCHANGE THEM ON THE SAME CORE - DO A TEST AND POST YOUR FINDINGS FOR ALL.
THE "GOD'S APRIL FOOLS JOKE ON SCIENCE" VIDEO EMPLOYS SHORT COILS
AND
THE "CONVENTIONAL vs REGENERATIVE ACCELERATION" VIDEO USES LONG COILSPERHAPS YOU CAN SEE A DIFFERENCE?
I ALSO ONLY WIND SERIES BI-FILAR AS WELL AND NOW ONLY USE 22 GAUGE WIRE (OR LOWER) - WHICH PRODUCES OVER 1100 VOLTS (COOKED MY $400.00 METER INSTANTLY AND FRIED ALL MY 10 AMP SWITCHES ON MY METER BOARD). THE LIGHT SWITCHES WERE GOTOLUC'S IDEA.
THE REACTION WE ARE AFTER RIGHT NOW IS A HV COIL THAT:DOES NOT DECELERATE THE ROTOR UNDER LOAD
DOES NOT ACCELERATE THE ROTOR UNDER LOAD EITHER
BUT PRODUCES MAXIMUM USEABLE STEPPED DOWN POWER.
ALL THE SERIES WOUND BI-FILAR COILS CAN BE ELECTRONICALLY SWITCHED TO PARALLEL WOUND BI-FILAR IF EMPLOYED IN AN ELECTRIC CAR TO PRODUCE REGENERATIVE BRAKING.
AND SOON WE WON'T EVEN HAVE AN EXTERNAL MOTOR BUT USE THE GENERATOR COILS AS MOTOR COILS TO GET THE ROTOR UP TO SPEED SO THIS WILL IMPACT COIL GEOMETRY AS WELL DOWN THE LINE.
CHEERS
T
Hello Mr T.
Yea, now we are talking! I think now you discuss some serious technical aspect here. Parallel coils, ways of connecting them and load handling capability of HV coil in terms of accelaration/decellaration.
i am glad you share that info.
Unfortunately, I have not confirmed yet with my noobish setup, the merits of the parallel wound, series connected HV coil since initial results were quite discouraging.
I remember your "angry" responce. :P
My observations so far indicate that the parallel connected coils employed in a HV mode can replace step-down transformers and handle the loading far better concerning decellaration effects. Anyway, i have to double-check that.
Brilliant idea the electronic switching in order to make at demand parallel / series connected the coils. I will keep an eye on this also.
Btw i was looking for laminated coils, instead of messing with dismantling existing transformers etc etc
see at reasonable prices :D
http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/IQAll/ELC54-18-1500
http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/IQAll
regards,
Baroutologos
ps: lol at the private message of I_Ron
ps2: I am seriously outresourced. I humbly progress since R&D is... carnivorous
Quote from: baroutologos on June 18, 2009, 07:08:25 AM
ps: lol at the private message of I_Ron
He who laughs last laughs bestRon
Still alive and kicking I see, very good
a quick question: why exactly is the countering field [bemf field] delayed? your video showed a nice explanation that it did, but why? perhaps the effect can be isolated into a small setup.
Is decoupling cemf from emf the holy grail to FE?
sorry for asking without first reading through the topics.
Quote from: alan on June 18, 2009, 03:49:14 PM
Still alive and kicking I see, very good a quick question: why exactly is the countering field [bemf field] delayed? your video showed a nice explanation that it did, but why? perhaps the effect can be isolated into a small setup.
Is decoupling cemf from emf the holy grail to FE? sorry for asking without first reading through the topics.
I HAVE MENTIONED THIS BEFORE BUT IT CAN'T HURT TO STATE IT AGAIN.
1)
THE BACK EMF INDUCED COUNTER-MAGNETIC FIELD PRODUCTION, TIMING AND STRENGTH ARE ALL A FUNCTION OF THE CURRENT FLOWING IN THE COIL.
2)
THE CURRENT FLOWING IN THE COIL IS A FUNCTION OF THE COIL IMPEDENCE
(AC RESISTANCE OR INDUCTIVE REACTANCE + DC RESISTANCE).
3)
THE COIL IMPEDENCE IS A FUNCTION OF THE FREQUENCY OR RATE OF MAGNET APPROACH.
4)
AS LONG AS THE MAGNET IS APPROACHING THE COIL ABOVE THE THRESHOLD FREQUENCY - COIL IMPEDENCE WILL NOT ALLOW THE COIL TO PRODUCE A MAGNETIC FIELD BECAUSE CURRENT CANNOT FLOW IN THE COIL.
5)
CURRENT CAN ONLY FLOW WHEN THE AC RESISTANCE DROPS TO ZERO.
6)
THE AC RESISTANCE DROPS TO ZERO WHEN THE MAGNET IS NEITHER APPROACHING NOR RECEDING FROM THE COIL OR TDC (TOP DEAD CENTRE).
7)
AT TDC (OR THEREABOUTS) CURRENT FLOWS AND PRODUCES THE DELAYED MAGNETIC FIELD WHEN THE COIL INDUCED AND CAPACITIVELY STORED VOLTAGE IS MAXIMUM.
THE COIL'S CORE HYSTERESIS CURVE MAY PLAY A ROLE IN DELAYING THE HV COIL'S INDUCED MAGNETIC FIELD UNTIL THE RIGHT MOMENT AS WELL. THE DELAYED MAGNETIC FIELD MAY ALSO PLAY A ROLE IN REDUCING THE CORE DRAG (COGGING TORQUE) ON THE ROTOR - SO THE MOTOR MAY DO LESS WORK BECAUSE THE DISCHARGING HV VOLTAGE TURNS THE GENERATOR COIL INTO A MOTOR COIL FOR A BRIEF INSTANT AND THE PRIME MOVER MAY SEE LESS CORE DRAG. - CREDIT TO HOPTOAD WHOEVER THE F HE IS?
8)
AT OR AROUND TDC A "PERFECT STORM" IS CREATED WHERE COIL IMPEDENCE IS MINIMUM (ONLY DC RESISTANCE OF THE COIL) - COIL CURRENT IS MAXIMUM - AND A DELAYED MAGNETIC FIELD IS PRODUCED WHICH PUSHES AWAY THE NOW RECEDING MAGNET AND ATTRACTS THE NEXT OPPOSITE POLE MAGNET ONE THE ROTOR.
9)
I DOUBT IT IS THE "ONLY" HOLY GRAIL BUT I AM CERTAINLY WILLING TO BET IT IS THE FIRST SCIENTIFICALLY VALID EXPLANATION - THAT WILL ACTUALLY BE ACCEPTED BECAUSE IF LOGIC RATHER THAN EMOTION IS ALLOWED TO DICTATE - THE ABOVE INFORMATION IS 100% VALID AND ALREADY FULLY KNOW AND UNDERSTOOD.T
I review the youtube videos concerning the short/thick vs long/norrow coils geometry.
If we assume that coil wiring was the very same and magnet gap was same in both cases, the regenarative accelaration video of elongated coils demonstarted a more brutal accellaration that the Fool's one.
Perhaps we should draw some conclusion on this?
From your experiments with various coils, in power generation/accelaration terms, its better to have longer (high quality cores) and having the wire spread (say to a distance of 100mm) or having the coil narrowed cored (say 40mm) and thicked wired? (same length)
(from my experimentation and intuition i would choose the 1st option)
Please, if you are in mood and have time, get in the trouble to clarify those things.
Regards,
Baroutologos
@ Inventor.
I was reading the previous days about series connecting HV coils in same volatge phase. Aether22 member has reported some remarkable results.
Can you share your view regarding series connecting HV coils? Are they of any good?
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 18, 2009, 07:00:00 PM
I HAVE MENTIONED THIS BEFORE BUT IT CAN'T HURT TO STATE IT AGAIN.
Very clear, appreciated.
Since the flywheel accelerates because of this effect, does it keep accelerating when the power if taken off from the motor?
I guess it won't, but it's worth a try.
Quote from: baroutologos on June 19, 2009, 05:14:08 AM
@ Inventor.
I was reading the previous days about series connecting HV coils in same volatge phase. Aether22 member has reported some remarkable results.
Can you share your view regarding series connecting HV coils? Are they of any good?
Regards,
Baroutologos
THE TWO COILS IN THE LATEST VIDEO - REGENERATIVE vs CONVENTIONAL - ARE:
"LONG" CORE
22 GAUGE WIRE @ 35 OHMS EACH
SERIES WOUND BI-FILAR
CONNECTED IN SRIES
INTO A 4 TO 1 STEP DOWN TRANSFORMER
AND INTO 3, 2 OHM LIGHT BULBS - CONNECTED IN SERIES.
THE ROTOR IS AN I_RON MODEL WITH 90 LB PULLING WEIGHT MAGNETS ON IT.
AIR GAP IS 1/8 OF AN INCH.
ONE COIL IS ORIENTED ON A NORTH MAGNET THE OTHER IS ON A SOUTH
THE COILS ARE MAGNETICALLY COUPLED USING THE TOROID CORE.
NEXT COILS WILL BE 18 GAUGE - SAME CORE, BUT MORE TURNS.
AND THE DESIGN GOAL WILL BE INCREASED OUPUT POWER w/ LITTLE OR NO ACCELERATION.
NEXT ROTOR AND ONE PIECE STATOR COIL DESIGN WILL BE A RADIAL DESIGN WITH COILS INSIDE AND POSSILY OUTSIDE A DRUM ROTOR WITH THE COILS AND BACK IRON MOUNTED ON A PNEUMATICALLY CONTROLLED SLIDING PLATE WHICH VARIES THE COIL AIR GAP AND HENCE GENERATOR OUTPUT POWER AND FUNCTION (REGENERATIVE ACCELERATION - REGENERATIVE NEUTRAL - OR REGENERATIVE BRAKING).
THE ENTIRE UNIT WILL BE HOUSED IN A TRAILER WITH THE TRAILER AXLE AS THE ROTOR DRIVE SHAFT AND IT WILL BE PULLED BY AN ELECTRIC VEHICLLE WITH THE OUTPUT OF THE GENERATOR BEING FED BACK INTO THE EV.
T
Quote from: alan on June 19, 2009, 07:14:30 AM
Very clear, appreciated.
Since the flywheel accelerates because of this effect, does it keep accelerating when the power if taken off from the motor?
I guess it won't, but it's worth a try.
THE NITPICKERS ARE WAITING IN THE WINGS TO POUNCE ON ANY WRONG WORD SO I WON'T RESPOND TO THIS "LOADED" QUESTION AND IT IS NOT, NEVER HAS BEEN, OR NEVER WILL BE A DESIGN GOAL.
THE DESIGN GOAL IS AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN GENERATOR NEUTRAL ARMATURE REACTION (SEE PREVIOUS POST) - THIS ACCELERATING ROTOR BUSINESS WAS NEVER MY IDEA, NOR INTENTION NOR DESIRE - IT IS GOD'S SICK SENSE OF HUMOR COMING OUT TO SHOW US HOW STUPID WE ALL ARE - AND IT'S GOD'S BRILLIANT MARKETING STRATEGY TO GET THE MESSAGE OUT.
ANY ATTENTION IS GOOD ATTENTION.T
Perhaps i did not epress myself good :)
I did not meant to parallel wound two coils on same core and series connecting them. (unless you meant two idependent coils, bifiilar parallel wound-series connected and then again series connecting the two of them also)
I meant what is your experience in connecting 2 independent coils, physicaly spaced apart and connecting them in a series mode and having same phase. Does the accelararion effect stacks?
Quote
"LONG" CORE
22 GAUGE WIRE @ 35 OHMS EACH
SERIES WOUND BI-FILAR
CONNECTED IN SRIES
perhaps you meant parallel wound, series connected?
Magnetic closed circuit
............................................................
Instead of coil's ends being in open air, having them arranged in a closed magnetic circuit boosts the effect. Is this make, really such a great diference?
Regards,
Baroutologos
@Thane
At what angles are 2 of your coils positioned on toroid? Are they directly one above rotor one of the south another one of the north poles or one is @2.5 and another @45 or what degree?
Finally found some glue (that works) for my rotor magnets (gorilla epoxy) after wasting a week trying other brands. Cure in progress. JB Weld is the best but you cant apply it to the middle of the magnet because it contains ferrite particles and glue gets sucked towards both ends instantly leaving dry middle portion ;D Getting automatic coil winding machine also but now when bifilar coils turned out to be the case not sure if it is going to be of any use... or any machine can do bifilars too? :-\ Rotor getting magnets glued have a toroidal ring ryobi but no coil mounting laminates yet..
Thanks for all info
Regards Minde
Quote from: baroutologos on June 19, 2009, 09:12:59 AM
I meant what is your experience in connecting 2 independent coils, physicaly spaced apart and connecting them in a series mode and having same phase. Does the accelararion effect stacks?
YES IT DOES
Quote............................................................
Instead of coil's ends being in open air, having them arranged in a closed magnetic circuit boosts the effect. Is this make, really such a great diference?
Regards,
Baroutologos
HAVING A CLOSED MAGNETIC CIRCUIT ALLOWS MORE ROTOR FLUX TO PASS THROUGH THE COILS - SO THE OUTPUT IS GREATER.
QuoteLONG" CORE
22 GAUGE WIRE @ 35 OHMS EACH
SERIES WOUND BI-FILAR
CONNECTED IN SRIES
perhaps you meant parallel wound, series connected?
YES - I WAS ON CRACK THIS MORNING SORRY.
T
Quote from: minde4000 on June 19, 2009, 09:48:51 AM
@Thane
At what angles are 2 of your coils positioned on toroid? Are they directly one above rotor one of the south another one of the north poles or one is @2.5 and another @45 or what degree?
GOOD QUESTION - THEY ARE DIRECTLY ABOVE THE MAGNETS SO THE COGGING TORQUE IS HIGHER THAN NORMAL - BUT I GAVE UP ON TRYING TO MININIZE COGGING TORQUE WITH HAND MADE STATOR CORES.
QuoteFinally found some glue (that works) for my rotor magnets (gorilla epoxy) after wasting a week trying other brands. Cure in progress. JB Weld is the best but you cant apply it to the middle of the magnet because it contains ferrite particles and glue gets sucked towards both ends instantly leaving dry middle portion ;D Getting automatic coil winding machine also but now when bifilar coils turned out to be the case not sure if it is going to be of any use... or any machine can do bifilars too? :-\ Rotor getting magnets glued have a toroidal ring ryobi but no coil mounting laminates yet..
Thanks for all info
Regards Minde
MY WINDING MACHINE IS A DC MOTOR w/ A DC POWER SUPPLY THAT I CAN ADJUST AND I USE TWO SPOOLS OF WIRE WHICH I WIND SIMULTANEOUSLY - I HOPE THIS WILL WORK ON YOUR MACHINE - IF ALL ELSE FAILS TRY A HAND DRILL.
GOOD LUCK
T
LC AND ALL,
I CANNOT RESPOND TO PM's FOR SOME STRANGE REASON?
SO IF YOU WANT TO PM ME, PLEASE DO IT THE OLD FASHIONED WAY VIA EMAIL @
thane_heins@yahoo.ca
THANKS
T
Ya PM has not been working with my PC for a few weeks now. Opens empty page with background and border menus. Altho I can PM from my phone.
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 19, 2009, 07:59:17 PM
LC AND ALL,
I CANNOT RESPOND TO PM's FOR SOME STRANGE REASON?
SO IF YOU WANT TO PM ME, PLEASE DO IT THE OLD FASHIONED WAY VIA EMAIL @
thane_heins@yahoo.ca
THANKS
T
I have had the same problems. But I picked up the new free Google Chrome broswer and after a little software fight was able to get it to respond to the OU PM's. It has other problems but it can handle OU PM's.
T, I will still resend to your email.
Regards, Larry
Hi @ all,
I was experimenting with my low rpm / few magnets setup and i observed and doubled (triple etc) verified one thing that perplexes my understanding.
Almost all coils i used (except one 75 ohms, 29 gauge wire) are not accellarating in my setup.... BUT, most of them does not deccellarate much either (when shorted). Note that happens in high rpm
(only 1 biffilar deccellarated till dead stop when shorted only the one parallel winding whereas the other remained opened)
My last coil to experiment with, was one 24 agw @ 10 ohms. At 1100 rpm the coil does not accellarated the system when shorted, BUT neither decellarated it much. Actually it is decellarating the system some 100 rpm and that's it.
Why is that i wonder? If it is not accellarating, why shorted does not decellarate too much? (max current through shorted coil)
This particular coil develop some 58 volt ac and 0,38 Amps oscillating current. (AC)
Again, if you apply any load (say 2-3 ohms bulb - 5 watts) oscillating current goes down to 0,35 A and decellaration kicks in hard driving system almost to dead stop!
Wtf? Why is that happening? It is a fact to me after all that experimentaing that a shorted HC coil (way far from accellarating) in some serious rpm is way less burden to the system than a loaded one (extracting energy from system).
or in otherwords, my non accellarating coils (decellarating actually) shorted slow system a bit, under a real load slow it a lot.
or In burden terms any load >> than short
...............................................................................
I actually made some arbitrary calculations based on the data i gathered on my different HC coils
1 ) biffilar 2 x 29 @ 38 ohms, 19 ohms in parallel ( 50 vvolts @ 0,25 A)
2 ) trifilar 3 x 29 @ 20 ohms, 7 ohms in parallel (27 volts @ 0,450 A)
3 ) solo winding 24 @ 10 ohms (last one) (57volts @ 0,38 A)
all shorted slow system in a similar mode (100 rpm)
i calculated ohmic losses in shorted mode
1 ) 1,2 watts
2 ) 1,4 watts
3 ) 1,4 watts
So all in shorted mode have same ohmic losses hence same rpm loss
I concluded with some frustration that deccellaration from these non-accellarating coils depended on energy extraction rather current flowing through them.
Your views pls
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: Kator01 on June 14, 2009, 08:11:19 PM
Hi i_ron,
I really like it that way. Now one thing with your lathe-setup :
Can you please do two changes and place the results here :
1) put a 1KiloOhm, then a 100 ohm and then a 10 ohm load on your coil as I assume that your coil is just free running.
2) place another two magnets 20 Degrees left and right of your primary magnet, so you can simulate the situation of the interaction of the +di/dt ( accessing magnet ) and -di/dt ( receeding magnet ) with your primary magnet at TDC.
3) do this with thh different loads according to 1)
This could bring us all a big step forward to really understand what is going on.
of course the coil should be the kind of a HV-coil.
Best Regards
Kator01
Kator,
Here are some results for the experiment you asked for….just the single magnet in this post. The coil is 63 ohms. The PM is around 1740 RPM.
I put a ½ inch magnet on the back of the disc to trigger B channel. The ‘T1’ marker is TDC. The caption with the picture is what is happening… “sm†= single magnet. Note that the scale changes from 5V to 1V
Ron
Quote from: Kator01 on June 14, 2009, 08:11:19 PM
Hi i_ron,
2) place another two magnets 20 Degrees left and right of your primary magnet, so you can simulate the situation of the interaction of the +di/dt ( accessing magnet ) and -di/dt ( receeding magnet ) with your primary magnet at TDC.
3) do this with thh different loads according to 1)
This could bring us all a big step forward to really understand what is going on.
of course the coil should be the kind of a HV-coil.
Best Regards
Kator01
Here is the Three magnet setup SNS...
But what is interesting is a hall sensor pickup which I will post tomorrow, or after this has been discussed.
Ron
@Thane,
Can you please tell us where you purchased these EI's cores you showed in January?
Thanks, Larry
Hi I_ron,
fantastic, really. Very good work. Now I refer to your picture with thw 1.2 K Ohm - Load in your post #239 as in this picture the asymetry of the wave is seen better that in the ones with bigger loads.
I have never thought about asymetry in the magnet-positions before I saw these scope-shots
In this picture one can see that -when the middle magnet receeds the -di/dt is enhanced by the approaching next magnet of opposite polarity. This can be crearly seen by the bigger amplitude of the downswing.
Now this also means that the positive peak of the magnetic force ( power )
appearing in the coil will not make it to the right side of the TDC-Line.
But.. what if you establish an asymetry in the magnet positions in the following way :
S N N etc
I would expect - and I am in the risk of being totally wrong here, but it is worth trying - that the downswing will be delayed and we will get the chance to arrive with the peak force at the right side of the TDC-Line.
What do you think ?
Regards
Kator01
Quote from: Kator01 on June 20, 2009, 08:03:24 PM
Hi I_ron,
fantastic, really. Very good work. Now I refer to your picture with thw 1.2 K Ohm - Load in your post #239 as in this picture the asymetry of the wave is seen better that in the ones with bigger loads.
I have never thought about asymetry in the magnet-positions before I saw these scope-shots
In this picture one can see that -when the middle magnet receeds the -di/dt is enhanced by the approaching next magnet of opposite polarity. This can be crearly seen by the bigger amplitude of the downswing.
Now this also means that the positive peak of the magnetic force ( power )
appearing in the coil will not make it to the right side of the TDC-Line.
But.. what if you establish an asymetry in the magnet positions in the following way :
S N N etc
I would expect - and I am in the risk of being totally wrong here, but it is worth trying - that the downswing will be delayed and we will get the chance to arrive with the peak force at the right side of the TDC-Line.
What do you think ?
Regards
Kator01
Yes, it is fascinating to follow up the wave form as the load increases.
Not too sure what you are suggesting... SSNNSSNN? I had tried that before but never scoped it.
Incidentally this coil didn't show "acelleration" but under controlled load tests I see why...1/8 inch gap and 1/2 inch square core...
no load... 3.48 watts draw
1k2 load ...27 watts draw
100 ohm load...5.8watts draw
10 ohm load... 4.6 watt draw
shorted... 3.48 watts draw
So you can see that the greatest output (not measured) was also with the 1k2 ohm load. (the above watt numbers are on top of a 44 watt drive requirement, ie: the total draw on the 1k2 load test was 71.16 watts)
So a very good suggestion, sorry it took so long but it took half a dozen tries to get it right... working on slapper's post next...
Ron
So, to a degree we are saying the same thing. That is a non-accellarating coil, if shorted poses no effort (or little) on prime mover.
But if you dare to try to extract some serious energy from it by applying a suitable load (1k2ohm) in your case then the Prime mover must pay for that.
Anyway, my next task is to find out how much energy can be outputed from a coil well into the accellaration range till it will become a neutral one.
I have noted as the inventor also pointed out that all loads applied must be of lowest possible impedance/resistance.
By the way, in this fashion you can only extract a fraction of the energy that coil can give as in employing in a normal generator mode.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: baroutologos on June 21, 2009, 02:55:54 AM
So, to a degree we are saying the same thing. That is a non-accellarating coil, if shorted poses no effort (or little) on prime mover.
YOU ARE OPERATING INSIDE THE COIL'S BOUNDRY REGION
QuoteBut if you dare to try to extract some serious energy from it by applying a suitable load (1k2ohm) in your case then the Prime mover must pay for that.
THE LOAD CHANGES THE COIL'S OPERATING POINT TO BELOW THE BOUNDRY REGION.
QuoteAnyway, my next task is to find out how much energy can be outputed from a coil well into the accellaration range till it will become a neutral one.
YOU WILL HAVE TO CREATE A COIL THAT WHEN
STEPPED DOWN AND
ON LOAD IS STILL OPERATING IN THE UPPER BOUNDRY REGION.
QuoteI have noted as the inventor also pointed out that all loads applied must be of lowest possible impedance/resistance.
NOT REALLY IT ALL DEPENDS WHAT REACTION YOU WANT TO CREATE I.E.:
LOAD HV ARMATURE REACTION HC ARMATURE REACTIONNO LOAD NONE NONE
LOAD X MINIMAL ACCELERATION MINIMAL DECELERATION
LOAD Y MODERATE ACCELERATION MODERATE DECELERATION
SHORT CIRCUIT MAXIMUM ACCELERATION MAXIMUM DECELERATION
QuoteBy the way, in this fashion you can only extract a fraction of the energy that coil can give as in employing in a normal generator mode.
Regards,
Baroutologos
LATEST YOUTUBE VIDEO VIDEO http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3JVjbXOssQ&feature=channel_page
NORMAL GENERATOR MODE -
ENERGY EXTRACTED = 7 WATTS ARMATURE REACTION = 21 RPM DECELERATION
MOTOR RESPONSE = 10 WATT DRAW INCREASE
LOAD COST = 3 WATTSREGENERATIVE ACCELERATION MODE -
ENERGY EXTRACTED = 43.8 WATTSARMATURE REACTION = 49 RPM ACCELERATION
MOTOR RESPONSE = 20 WATT DRAW DECREASE
LOAD COST = - 63.8 WATTSPERFOMANCE SUMMARYREGENERATIVE ACCELERATION GENERATOR
PROVIDES 39 WATTS MORE POWER OVER
THE CONVENTIONAL GENERATOR WITH
23 WATTS LESS TO THE PRIME MOVER.
T
P.S.
HAPPY FATHER'S DAY TO ALL! :D
It is always nice to have all the tools and measuring equipment possible but if you are on a budget then “second best†sometimes has to be the case.
So when I wanted a Gauss meter all I could afford was something homemade. All I needed to know is in the very excellent write up on the net…
http://www.coolmagnetman.com/magmetr1.htm
It is very limited in range, non calibrated, not worth a hoot on neo’s but a godsend for those moments when you wonder what is going on. Here are a couple of pictures…
Quote from: i_ron on June 21, 2009, 11:02:44 AM
It is always nice to have all the tools and measuring equipment possible but if you are on a budget then “second best†sometimes has to be the case.
So when I wanted a Gauss meter all I could afford was something homemade. All I needed to know is in the very excellent write up on the net…
http://www.coolmagnetman.com/magmetr1.htm
It is very limited in range, non calibrated, not worth a hoot on neo’s but a godsend for those moments when you wonder what is going on. Here are a couple of pictures…
Another nice help Ron. Thanks.
Does your coil cause acceleration? If so, can you scope the Gauss meter output and the coil amps at the same time during acceleration.
Regards, Larry
I_RON,
no, no, no. I just talk about one set of three magnets for this moment.
The process I have in mind is this :
the first magnet aproaching the coil is South followed by two succeeding North-Magnets ( S -> N -> N ) . In this way the sharp decline in the mentioned picture is delayed beyond the TDC-Line. My idea it to move the peak of the voltage ( which also means the power- and force-peak ) to the right side of the TDC-Line As I said : I might be totally wrong.
Just think about what this would mean then concerning the forces acting aginst the prime mover .
Regards
Kator01
Quote from: LarryC on June 21, 2009, 11:34:04 AM
Another nice help Ron. Thanks.
Does your coil cause acceleration? If so, can you scope the Gauss meter output and the coil amps at the same time during acceleration.
Regards, Larry
EDIT:
the following is incorrect in that all coils exhibit this behavior when shortedLarry, Kator,
The following is a bit of a bomb shell, I was looking for phase shifts but was not expecting a 180 shift!
Same as before, the trigger magnet is directly behind the north out facing magnet and is the blue bottom trace. it is there for reference and the "T1" marker is set to TDC. The difference now is the previous posts were of the voltage, these shots below are Gauss.
The first pic is a classic showing the flux build up and peaking at TDC, just what one would expect. This is with the coil open. The next pic shows the flux does a 180 when the coil is shorted.
Ron
Quote from: i_ron on June 21, 2009, 01:22:54 PM
Larry, Kator,
Ron
EDIT:
the following is incorrect in that all coils exhibit this behavior when shortedNow what I expected to see was something like the Hall_HC pic with the "flux" displaced side ways...
Here also, for reference, are pics with a 1k2 and 100ohm load.
The core is 95 mm long the coil is 57 mm long.
The HC coil was 187 turns @ 1.2 ohm
This is an interesting occurrence and I do hope several pickup on this and do similar tests. I have never come across this before and seek verification.
Ron
Hi I_ron,
yes this is quite intersting...but where is the hall-switch located ?
I only can estimete from looking at your picture that you placed it at the end of the coil which would then be the opposite polarity.
Do I understand it correcty that you already reversed the polarity in your analysis ?
I know it is a bit tricky but is there a possibilty to place the hallswitch in a slot situated in front-face of the core ?
I mean just reverse a value in our imagination does possibly not reflect the reality of what is goin on.
Best Regards
Kator01
Quote from: Kator01 on June 21, 2009, 01:44:58 PM
Hi I_ron,
yes this is quite intersting...but where is the hall-switch located ?
I only can estimete from looking at your picture that you placed it at the end of the coil which would then be the opposite polarity.
Do I understand it correcty that you already reversed the polarity in your analysis ?
I know it is a bit tricky but is there a possibilty to place the hallswitch in a slot situated in front-face of the core ?
I mean just reverse a value in our imagination does possibly not reflect the reality of what is goin on.
Best Regards
Kator01
The picture that shows the location is the last picture in post 245
The probe is at the end of the core. When the north pole is opposite the core the close end becomes a south and the probe end becomes a north.
The first picture is with the coil open... the second picture is with the coil shorted. Nothing reversed in my imagination. Just a pictorial representation of two switch positions. One with the north pole as indicated by the upper trace being on the TDC line the second with the TDC line over the southpole.
The gauss meter outputs a positive number for a north pole and a negative number for a south pole. The "T1" marker is set to the bottom traces TDC. Just follow up this line to see which pole is "in line"
That is why I asked for all to do this test also to see if my test was incorrect. With the probe at the magnet end the reading will be dominated by the magnet and not indicative of the core.
Ron
I_Ron,
this phase shift reminds me of the behaviour of a coupled two-oscillator system ( very well known in mechanical and High-frequency systems ).
I will try to find an information in the web to post it here.
But basically it goes like this :
Two systems which have the same properties ( in this case = resonance-frequency ) are coupled. One system is permanetly triggered to oscillate at its resonance-frequency taking the second system with it.
Now when you sweep up the frequnecy of system 1 all of a sudden system 2 moves in a 180 Deg phase-shift as its original resonance-frequency acts like an inertia factor.
Please not that this also occures in coupling two hf-lc-tanks where one is swept up past its resonance state.
What you could do is to make readings of this loaded ( or shorted coil ) with different rotation-speed ( starting from lets say 800 up to 1800 rot/min) in order to find out if there is a critical speed where this phase-shift occurs and repeat this with different loads.
I am sorry I_ron but I do not have your means to test all this so I can not confirm or negate any of your findings. I only can put in here some ideas which come to my mind when I see your work here.
Thank you for all your effort.
Best Regards
Kator01
Quote from: Kator01 on June 21, 2009, 02:27:32 PM
I_Ron,
snip
I am sorry I_ron but I do not have your means to test all this so I can not confirm or negate any of your findings. I only can put in here some ideas which come to my mind when I see your work here.
Thank you for all your effort.
Best Regards
Kator01
You are welcome, your remarks are generally knowledgeable, on target and appreciated.
Ron
Well, after finally getting the motor rigged up, thought I'd do a test.
using the same amount of magnets on the motor and the generator, I found that the motor can produce more ac per rpm than the generator. And even funnily enough, when shorted, the motor produces more than the generator when shorted. :S
Quote from: i_ron on June 21, 2009, 02:03:18 PM
The probe is at the end of the core.
OK, sorry, false alarm... this is normal behavior for any shorted coil.
I hadn't tried the HC coil shorted before... but it does the same thing.
So this was a first hall test and a learning experience...
I didn't know this sort of thing happened...
here is the HC coil shorted:
Ron
Hi I_Ron,
normal behaviour ? I did not know it. Is this written in the textbooks ?
Here is a link where you can see the process of coupled oscillation :
http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/coupled/coupled.html (http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/coupled/coupled.html)
Regards
Kator01
Quote from: Kator01 on June 21, 2009, 07:23:57 PM
Hi I_Ron,
normal behaviour ? I did not know it. Is this written in the textbooks ?
Here is a link where you can see the process of coupled oscillation :
http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/coupled/coupled.html (http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/coupled/coupled.html)
Regards
Kator01
I have never seen any such reference either, so was a surprise to me. But the clue that it is not a resonance effect was on a run down test the phase remained locked right down until it practically stopped and lost trigger sync.
Why this happening is still of interest though is because of Mr T's emphasis on the shorted HV coil. So I have left my scope shots up as a reference.
It would be interesting to see these kinds of tests on some of his better performing coils.
Ron
Oh, thanks for the link, I had an idea of what you were talking about but this effect seems to be different...
Thanks Mr T for the clarifications given, regarding coils' totaly unorthodox behaviour regarding current flowing on them in conventional explaination terms.
IMO, instead of just saying "loading the coil" in our case it will be more suitable and helpful for replicators at saying amounts of energy extracted out of it and maintaing accellaration effects etc.
Because even a HC coil can operate at the "boundaries of accellaration" on these rotor speeds and frequencies, by over-loading it (i.e. max current thourgh does not decellarate much either - shorted)
question: One of contemporary coils of yours (22 gauge-bifilar) what is the maximum energy you can extract from it in order to marginally start acting as a break (or break even :) )
question2: It's better (in energy amount terms) to extract energy directly from HV coils or just employing shorted HV coils as "motors" and having HC coils (on them or physically spaced apart) for the generator part?
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps: thanks for patience and infos given
ps2: I decided to forget my old setup and procceed with a new one. Ready made coils (audio speakers) of extra thin laminations, high saturation levels, very little eddie currents and hysteresis losses.
The pulsed motor will be dismantled and a high efficiency permanent magnet dc motor will take the job.
Finally after some experimenting i plan at upgrading rotor's performance by adding six south poles double stacted neos betweeen the 6 north ones.
We see from there..
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 19, 2009, 07:35:37 AM
THE NITPICKERS ARE WAITING IN THE WINGS TO POUNCE ON ANY WRONG WORD SO I WON'T RESPOND TO THIS "LOADED" QUESTION AND IT IS NOT, NEVER HAS BEEN, OR NEVER WILL BE A DESIGN GOAL.
THE DESIGN GOAL IS AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN GENERATOR NEUTRAL ARMATURE REACTION (SEE PREVIOUS POST) - THIS ACCELERATING ROTOR BUSINESS WAS NEVER MY IDEA, NOR INTENTION NOR DESIRE - IT IS GOD'S SICK SENSE OF HUMOR COMING OUT TO SHOW US HOW STUPID WE ALL ARE - AND IT'S GOD'S BRILLIANT MARKETING STRATEGY TO GET THE MESSAGE OUT.
ANY ATTENTION IS GOOD ATTENTION.
T
You can get neutral reaction by loading the wheel with a HC lenz inducing coil or mechanically coupled generator, both with variable load to tune it to steady speed. With the HV coil you nullify the braking of the HC or generator -> equal and opposite forces [braking and acceleration] = steady speed.
So use HV and HC with variable load, combined
Quote from: baroutologos on June 22, 2009, 02:53:58 AM
question: One of contemporary coils of yours (22 gauge-bifilar) what is the maximum energy you can extract from it in order to marginally start acting as a break (or break even :) )
THE LAST SET OF 22 GAUGE BI-FILAR COILS WERE DESIGNED TO
NOT ACCELERATE - BUT THEY ENDED UP PRODUCING THE MOST ACCELERATION SO FAR. THE NEXT COILS WILL BE 18 GAUGE SO WE WILL SEE...?
Quotequestion2: It's better (in energy amount terms) to extract energy directly from HV coils or just employing shorted HV coils as "motors" and having HC coils (on them or physically spaced apart) for the generator part?
THIS ANSWER SHOULD BE SELF EVIDENT FROM THE DATA IN MY LAST POST.THE
HC COILS PROVIDE A DECELERATING 7 WATTS AND THE ENERGY PRODUCING
HV COILS PROVIDE 37 WATTS AND
OVERIDE THE DECELERATING 7 CONVENTIONAL WATTS.
WITH LARGER GAUGE WIRE THIS 37 WATTS OUGHT TO BE EVEN HIGHER APPROACHING 100 WATTS.
I WOULD NEVER EVER USE HC COILS AGAIN. (FAMOUS LAST WORDS)
ALTHOUGH SWITCHED PARALLEL CONNECTED BI-FILARS WILL PROVIDE GOOD REGEN-BRAKING IN AN EV. SO AGAIN IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHAT REACTION YOU WANT TO CREATE.
Quote(audio speakers) of extra thin laminations, high saturation levels, very little eddie currents and hysteresis losses.
WOW! THIS IS A REALLY GREAT IDEA! I WILL TRY THIS ALSO - MAYBE LC AS WELL?
QuoteThe pulsed motor will be dismantled and a high efficiency permanent magnet dc motor will take the job.
DON'T FORGET THAT A PM DC MOTOR IS VERY HARD TO ACCELERATE AND IF IT DOES, IT THEN BECOMES A DC GENERATOR AND IS SELF LIMITING - AN AC INDUCTION MOTOR BECOMES A GENERATOR AS WELL BUT YOU STILL GET GOOD ACCELERATION.
WHY NOT MAKE 5 HV COILS - USE 3 (OR ALL 5) OF THEM AS MOTOR COILS TO GET THE ROTOR UP TO SPEED ABOVE THE CRITICAL MINIMUM SPEED THRESHOLD AND THEN GRADUALLY SWITCH THE COILS OVER TO ACCELERATING GENERATOR COILS? YOU SEEM TO HAVE THE CAPACITY TO DO THIS? ;)
AND IT IS OUR EVENTUAL PLAN AS WELL SO YOU CAN LEAD THE WAY ON THIS ONE!
GOTOLUC HAS A REALLY NEAT DC INDUCTION/NEWMAN MOTOR WHERE THE STATOR CURRENT DROPS WHEN THE MOTOR IS LOADED - SO THIS MIGHT BE WORTH LOOKING INTO AS WELL? QuoteFinally after some experimenting i plan at upgrading rotor's performance by adding six south poles double stacted neos betweeen the 6 north ones.
We see from there..
Regards,
Baroutologos
SOUNDS LIKE A PLAN - GOOD LUCK!
T
@i_ron
Regarding your scope shots, can you explain like in slow motion, what is happening to make the curve go up then down. Seems to me that since the magnets are separated having either north then south facing the core all moving in the same direction, would it be correct to say the north magnet makes the top half curve and the south magnet then makes the bottom half curve and so on (or vise-versa depending on the core winding direction). Does this mean each two magnets makes one full wave and therefore the overall frequency should be (total magnets divided by two, times the rpm).
But then as the second half of the north leaves the core, the first half of the south is already on the core so there has to be a doubling curve somewhere to show the south starting before the north leaves the core. So it is rather weird to see such a smooth curve as you are showing. Or am I confusing the issue.
Last question. I saw there are some neo magnets that have a nice conical center hole for easy mounting. Could these be used with conical headed aluminum screws to simplify the magnet mounting on a rotor. I am considering this for a trial build but am wondering if such a mounting would be secure enough when exposed to such rotations. I am thinking of using a 1/2" or 3/4" thick aluminum rotor (to have some good mass in the wheel) so there is no drag potential between an energized coil core and the metal of the wheel.
@wattsup
good to see you are alive and well.
Just wondering how thw Mylow replication went?
any useful data from your tests.
@Crankypants
I was just wondering if you populated yoyur device before earthday whith any more coils
and if you did what happenned?
Mark
Quote from: markdansie on June 22, 2009, 03:50:27 PM
@Crankypants
I was just wondering if you populated yoyur device before earthday whith any more coils
and if you did what happenned?
Mark
NO THERE IS NO POINT TO ADDING MORE COILS AT THIS POINT BECAUSE IT ADDS COGGING TORQUE AND THE MOTOR CANNOT START UP UNLESS YOU GRADUALLY "CLOSE THE DOOR" AND BRING THE COILS INTO POSITION ONCE THE ROTOR IS UP TO SPEED.
THIS IS NOT FEASIBLE BECAUSE THE PROTOYPE IS SETUP AND SAFETY IS PARAMOUNT WHEN GIVING DEMOS TO STRATEGIC PARTNERS/INVESTORS.
- ALSO DURING THE DEMOS THERE OUGHT TO BE AS LITTLE FUSSING ABOUT AS POSSIBLE.
WHAT I AM GOING TO DO HOWEVER, IS BUILD ANOTHER PROTOTYPE WITH TWO MORE COILS - ONLY WITH LARGER GAUGE WIRE 18 OR 20 GAUGE (FOR MORE POWER) AND I AM GOING TO TRY TO REDUCE THE ACCELERATION IN FAVOUR OF OUTPUT POWER. - TO SHOW SCALABILITY.
T
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 11, 2009, 07:51:40 AM
WHEN THE COIL/CORE IS DIRECTLY OVER THE MAGNET THE INDUCED VOLTAGE IS MAXIMUM NOT ZERO.
AS THE COIL/CORE MOVES AWAY FROM THE MAGNET THE POLARITY CHANGES AND THE VOLTAGE BEGINS TO FALL TOWARDS ZERO.
THE INDUCED VOLTAGE DROPS TO ZERO WHEN THE COIL/CORE IS EXACTLY HALF WAY BETWEEN THE NEXT MAGNET ON THE ROTOR.
T
http://jnaudin.free.fr/images/magconfig.gif
Something like the scope shot on the right?
I know this has been discussed quite a few pages ago but I felt like pointing this out. I was also thinking of making its own thread about the romag generator.
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mromexp.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mromag.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/dsqromag.htm
Quote from: wattsup on June 22, 2009, 03:18:35 PM
@i_ron
Regarding your scope shots, can you explain like in slow motion, what is happening to make the curve go up then down. Seems to me that since the magnets are separated having either north then south facing the core all moving in the same direction, would it be correct to say the north magnet makes the top half curve and the south magnet then makes the bottom half curve and so on (or vise-versa depending on the core winding direction). Does this mean each two magnets makes one full wave and therefore the overall frequency should be (total magnets divided by two, times the rpm).
But then as the second half of the north leaves the core, the first half of the south is already on the core so there has to be a doubling curve somewhere to show the south starting before the north leaves the core. So it is rather weird to see such a smooth curve as you are showing. Or am I confusing the issue.
Last question. I saw there are some neo magnets that have a nice conical center hole for easy mounting. Could these be used with conical headed aluminum screws to simplify the magnet mounting on a rotor. I am considering this for a trial build but am wondering if such a mounting would be secure enough when exposed to such rotations. I am thinking of using a 1/2" or 3/4" thick aluminum rotor (to have some good mass in the wheel) so there is no drag potential between an energized coil core and the metal of the wheel.
Hi wattsup,
Yes, you have it nearly cased... the gauss meter outputs a positive voltage for a north pole and a negative voltage for a south pole.
So looking at the bottom trace you see the voltage generated by a single magnet and the zero crossing in the middle is TDC of the pickup coil's core with the first positive going peak triggering the display.
The top trace is exactly as you think, the top part of the sine wave being the rising level of flux in the core from the north pole magnet and the same then with the bottom half from the south pole.
So to see it more clearly have another look at the link posted previously...
http://www.koehler.me.uk/animation/e_and_m_magnets.htm
here you can see how the flux and the voltage relate. In the animation you see the one north pole causing the one flux hump but both sine's
But the next south magnet in my case should be right on top of the south sine and extend and/or double it. Therefore, if it is not an "M" wave you can say that the receding N and the approaching south cause the negative half of the sine wave and the receding south and the approaching north cause the positive half of the sine wave.
Clear as mud?
But it is interesting also to view my previous posts on voltage generation, 'cause all sorts of weird things take place under load... and shorting.
Ron
oh, nearly forgot... take a magnet with you and look for SS screws/bolts, they are much stronger that aluminum and some are quite non magnetic, hence the magnet to check...
Of course a better way would be to pocket into the aluminum disc for the magnet... a one inch magnet will sit nicely in a 1/8th pocket made with a 1 inch wood working spade bit... if you have a nice slow turning drill press.
Quote from: broli on June 22, 2009, 07:14:55 PM
http://jnaudin.free.fr/images/magconfig.gif
Something like the scope shot on the right?
I know this has been discussed quite a few pages ago but I felt like pointing this out.
IT WAS DISCUSSED INCORRECTLY THEN AS IT IS NOW.YOU SHOULD
NOT BE LOOKING AT THE VOLTAGE - YOU SHOULD BE LOOKING AT THE
CURRENT SINE WAVE!
AND THE CURRENT AND VOLTAGE ARE IN PHASE ACROSS A PURELY RESISTIVE LOAD...
AND THE LOAD POWER FACTOR IS TRANSFERRED BACK TO THE COIL AND IT = 1.
THE CURRENT (AND VOLTAGE) ARE MAXIMUM AT TDC AND START TO CHANGE DIRECTION ONLY WHEN THE MAGNET STARTS TO MOVE AWAY FROM TDC BECAUSE THE CURRENT AND VOLTAGE ARE
IN PHASE.
AND AS I SAID BEFORE - IT IS A MISTAKE TO LISTEN TO I_JUDAS AT THIS POINT BECAUSE EMOTION AND EGO HAVE REPLACED SCIENCE AND REASON.
THE BLIND SHOULD NOT LEAD THE BLIND
TO THE ABATTOIR.
T
Here is my double sided rotor - half setup. Still looking for laminates.
Quote from: minde4000 on June 22, 2009, 10:19:08 PM
Here is my double sided rotor - half setup. Still looking for laminates.
Hi
whats the diameter of the rotor
thanx
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 22, 2009, 09:06:59 PM
...IT IS A MISTAKE TO LISTEN TO I_JUDAS AT THIS POINT BECAUSE EMOTION AND EGO HAVE REPLACED SCIENCE AND REASON.
THE BLIND SHOULD NOT LEAD THE BLIND
TO THE ABATTOIR.
T
So which blind mouse do I follow: "I_JUDAS" or "CrankyLUKE6:42" ?
Trailblazers creating new trails need to put up more markers and create better maps
than they think is probably needed for the job. Likewise, hikers on new trails, without a well worn path to follow, need to be able to read maps and follow markers, all while resisting the well intentioned urge to fill in perceived missing markers. Any failure in this system, and the hiker will never agree that they reached the same destination as the trailblazer. Ideally, the first hikers should compare notes with the trailblazer, and be able to mutually accept ideas for improvement.
"BlindMouse3"
QuoteTrailblazers creating new trails need to put up more markers and create better maps
than they think is probably needed for the job. Likewise, hikers on new trails, without a well worn path to follow, need to be able to read maps and follow markers, all while resisting the well intentioned urge to fill in perceived missing markers. Any failure in this system, and the hiker will never agree that they reached the same destination as the trailblazer. Ideally, the first hikers should compare notes with the trailblazer, and be able to mutually accept ideas for improvement.
That analogy is probably the best I've ever heard, you couldn't be any more accurate with it. :)
Me? I'm just creating my own peaceful personal trail in the most wonderful part of the world. :D
Another thing you forgot to add: The more hikers you get, the bigger the mess, unless they clean up after themselves.
Quote from: derricka on June 23, 2009, 06:02:34 AM
Trailblazers creating new trails need to put up more markers and create better maps
than they think is probably needed for the job.
"BlindMouse3"
QuoteBut aside from the stupid remarks a fairly decent post for a change,
More like it would be appreciated,
Ron
IF AT FIRST YOU DON'T SUCCEED - GO BACK AND FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONSHERE IS WHAT PEOPLE SHOULD DO TO REPLICATE THE THANE HEINS PEREPITEIA PROPERLY.
1) DON'T LISTEN TO I_RON.
2) DON'T LISTEN TO HOPTOAD.
3) WIND A HIGH VOLTAGE COIL ON CHEAP STEEL IRON BARS FROM HOME DEPOT LIKE LARRYC.
4) USE AN 18 POLE ROTOR AND WIND A SERIES BI-FILAR COIL.
5) PUT ENOUGH TURNS ON UNTIL ACCELERATION STARTS WHEN COIL SHORTED. IF NO
ACCELERATION ADD MORE TURNS UNTIL IT DOES OR RAISE ROTOR SPEED.
6) 30 GUAGE WIRE IS BEST TO START WITH - 100 OHMS WOUND TIGHTLY SHOULD WORK.
7) THEN ONCE YOU HAVE A GOOD IDEA OF WHAT IT TAKES TO GET ACCELERATION WITH CHEAP CORES - UPGRADE TO GOOD TRANSFORMER LAMINATIONS.
REPEAT STEPS 1 - 6
9) NOW CHANGE THE GAUGE OF WIRE TO 22 GAUGE AND REPEAT STEPS 1 - 6.
10) NOW ADD AN EXTERNAL LOAD TO YOUR COIL - START WITH 1 OHM, 10 OHM AND UP UNTIL ACCELERATION DISAPPEARS.
11) NOW YOU KNOW THE LOAD OPERATING RANGE OF SAID COIL.
12) NOW GET A STEP DOWN TRANSFORMER AND STEP DOWN THE HV OUTPUT FROM YOUR ACCELERATING HV COIL.
13) MAKE SURE THE TRANSFORMER DOES NOT REMOVE THE ACCELERATIVE EFFECTS
14) NOW ADD A LOAD - A LIGHT BULB IS NICE BUT YOU NEED A LOW RESISTANCE LIGHT BULB IF YOU ARE GOING TO MAINTAIN ACCELERATION.
15) THE LIGHT BULBS FROM THE RYOBI BENCH GRINDER WORK WELL BECAUSE THEIR RESISTANCE IS ONLY 2 OHMS.
16) IF YOU GET THIS FAR YOU WILL HAVE A PRETTY GOOD IDEA OF WHAT IT TAKES TO CREATE AND MAINTAIN ACCELERATION UNDER DIFFERENT CONDITIONS - IF YOU FAIL ANYWHERE ALONG THE WAY JUST SAY IT'S ALL A HOAX.
17) NOW YOU CAN TRY AN E CORE.
18) TO MAKE AN E CORE WORK WELL YOU NEED TO MAKE ONE BY HAND FIRST ALSO IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO USE CHEAP STEEL EARLY ON AS WELL.
19) MAKE THE INNER E FINGER FIRST AND GET IT WORKING.
20) THEN MAKE THE OUTER E FINGERS - WIND HV WIRE ON THE OUTER E FINGERS.
21) MAKE SURE THE INNER E FINGER LAMINATIONS ARE TURNED 90 DEGREES TO THE OUTER E FINGER LAMINATIONS
22) YOU CAN ALSO MAKE A MODIFIED E COIL WITH AN INNER HV COIL AND THEN AN IRON PIPE AROUND THE INNER HV COIL WITH HV WINDINGS ON TOP OF THAT - LEAVE THE BACKING PLATE OFF FOR NOW.
23) THE ROLE OF THE CONCENTRIC E COIL IS FOR THE OUTER CORE TO COLLECT THE INNER COIL'S DISCHARGING FLUX AND VISE VERSA.
24) THE INNER HV CORE AND THE OUTER HV CORE MUST LINE UP CORRECTLY WITH THE MAGNETS ON THE ROTOR OR IT WON'T WORK. IT TOOK ME 5 SOLID WEEKS TO GET IT RIGHT - IF HOWEVER IT DOES NOT WORK FOR YOU THE FIRST TIME THEN JUST SAY IT IS A HOAX.
25) NOW ONCE YOU GET THIS FAR MAKE A BI-TOROID HV COIL WITH DUAL ROTORS - SIMILAR TO THE ONE IN MY EARLIER BASEMENT VIDEOS. THERE IS NO AIR GAP BETWEEN THE COILS AND THE FLUX FROM ONE COIL GOES RIGHT INTO THE OTHER - AND YOU GET ACCELERATION.
26) ANY PROBLEMS ALONG THE WAY - TALK TO THE MAN IN "CHARGE" OR SEND ME AN EMAIL @ thane_heins@yahoo.ca .
T
Or, don't be a sheep and come up with your own ideas. :)
Thane, you're not the only one working on your own idea. What's the point of being an inventor if people have to follow someone else?
Quote from: Pageygeeza on June 23, 2009, 09:11:41 AM
Or, don't be a sheep and come up with your own ideas. :)
Thane, you're not the only one working on your own idea. What's the point of being an inventor if people have to follow someone else?
I believe the point that Thane is trying to make is that in order to understand the effect you need to have a starting point. Once you can replicate the effect there maybe numerous ways to achieve the effect. Most new inventions are based upon older inventions and ideas so you need to have a valid starting point. A working independent replication of an existing idea is a valid starting point that can be expanded upon and improved. I have yet to see Thane state that his setup is ideal. It just happens his setup is working so that is a starting point. Thane has also released videos, his theory of operation, and is working on improving his setup based upon his experimenting. This seems to be all very positive. Thane is also trying to give a simplest guide for replication with his posted steps is the previous post. Once again this is positive.
You may have a better design or invention but you also have indicated that you are going the commercial route in order to make some money off of the design. That is all fine by me but what is the point of making a statement of having a better design or idea if you are not going to show or share it here. It ends up looking like a lot of smoke without any real substance.
Good point, but the whole thing is very two sided. Either you go private and have people not believing you because you can't provide the proof. Or provide the proof and no one wanting it because it's gone public and everyone has access to the information.
Watch this space.............
Quote from: aladinlamp on June 23, 2009, 03:33:48 AM
Hi
whats the diameter of the rotor
thanx
Outter diam 28cm, magnets 23cm. I copied T's dimensions and double sided rotor.
Edit: I used 18 1"x1" N42 magnets epoxied in a middle of .5" rotor so I have .25" sticking out on both sides.
Minde
Quote from: minde4000 on June 23, 2009, 11:11:43 AM
Outter diam 28cm, magnets 23cm. I copied T's dimensions and double sided rotor.
Edit: I used 18 1"x1" N42 magnets epoxied in a middle of .5" rotor so I have .25" sticking out on both sides.
Minde
ok and magnets are all same polarity or NSNSNSN?
Quote from: aladinlamp on June 23, 2009, 12:25:02 PM
ok and magnets are all same polarity or NSNSNSN?
In my case NSNS.
Minde
Quote from: Pageygeeza on June 23, 2009, 10:56:33 AM
Good point, but the whole thing is very two sided. Either you go private and have people not believing you because you can't provide the proof. Or provide the proof and no one wanting it because it's gone public and everyone has access to the information.
Watch this space.............
OR THE THIRD OPTION...
PATENT YOUR IP - AND THEN GO PUBLIC - YOUR PATENT WILL BE PUBLIC ANYWAY...
THE FIRST THING ANY INVESTOR OR STRATEGIC PARTNER IS GOING TO ASK TO SEE IS YOUR PATENTS.
CHEERS
T
BYW - NICE ROTOR MINDE! :)
I was pondering on my next setup (to spend my money on :p ) and thought about the damned cogging torque and vibrations because of it.
It seems that with a carefull allignment (odd - even numbers etc) i can achieved vibrations to be minimal etc. But, as i intend at having different coils connecting in series (2 or more just to see) then those issues are of paramount importance.
I thought about this, and i think i would trust the old proven solution. one extra heavy flywheel, that has to be perfectly balanced mounted on the rotor shaft.
Any thoughs?
Regards,
Baroutologos
Never thought of that Thane, thanks.
I did look into patenting it a few years back and then shied away because of the costs. :(
Admittedly, that was for an earlier version and the prototype had never been conceived. Although I will look into it again this weekend, thanks again. :D
Quote from: baroutologos on June 24, 2009, 02:40:45 AM
I was pondering on my next setup (to spend my money on :p ) and thought about the damned cogging torque and vibrations because of it.
It seems that with a carefull allignment (odd - even numbers etc) i can achieved vibrations to be minimal etc. But, as i intend at having different coils connecting in series (2 or more just to see) then those issues are of paramount importance.
I thought about this, and i think i would trust the old proven solution. one extra heavy flywheel, that has to be perfectly balanced mounted on the rotor shaft.
Any thoughs?
Regards,
Baroutologos
YOU CAN PUT YOUR COIL(S) ON A DOOR AND BRING THE DOOR INTO POSITION ONCE THE ROTOR IS UP TO SPEED WHERE COGGING TORQUE IS MINIMAL.
YOU CAN HAVE YOU COILS IN ACCELERATING MODE AND AS YOU BRING THE DOOR INTO POSITION THE ROTOR WILL PICK UP ADDITIONAL SPEED.
NOTE: MAKE SURE YOUR MAGNETS ARE SECURE AND ALWAYS WEAR EYE PROTECTION.
T
Quote from: Pageygeeza on June 24, 2009, 05:35:56 AM
Never thought of that Thane, thanks.
I did look into patenting it a few years back and then shied away because of the costs. :(
Admittedly, that was for an earlier version and the prototype had never been conceived. Although I will look into it again this weekend, thanks again. :D
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOUR COUNTRY BUT IN CANADA WE CAN FILE A PROVISIONAL PATENT FOR $200.00 AS A SMALL ENTITY (I OFTEN WRITE MY OWN). THIS GIVES YOU AN OPTION TO FILE A "REAL" PATENT LATER ON BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY IT ESTABLISHES
INVENTORSHIP AND PRIOR ART.
THIS MEANS THAT IF YOU DECIDE TO NEVER PATENT - THEN NO ONE ELSE CAN EITHER.
T
Test drive @ 3500 rpm ... my hands were shaking there for a second at one moment .. scary to be around without any safety mount and cage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqBlurORT1s
P.S. That cracking sound you hear at the beggining and all the way thru is my coffee maker sorry... rofl
Regards Minde
Quote from: minde4000 on June 24, 2009, 06:06:34 PM
Test drive @ 3500 rpm ... my hands were shaking there for a second at one moment .. scary to be around without any safety mount and cage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqBlurORT1s
P.S. That cracking sound you hear at the beggining and all the way thru is my coffee maker sorry... rofl
Regards Minde
VIDEO MVI 0408REALLY NICE WORK THERE MINDE - HOWEVER YOU SHOULD NEVER PUT YOURSELF IN THE MAGNET FLIGHT PATH LIKE THAT! :-\
T
PS:
I REALLY ENJOYED YOUR MUSIC VIDEO AS WELL - YOUR DIET SEEMS TO BE WORKING WELL! :D
MINDE'S MUSIC VIDEO MVI 0408http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Ll-W1ZEF0&feature=related
PS:
MINDE'S MUSIC VIDEO MVI 0408
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Ll-W1ZEF0&feature=related
[/quote]
There is 313 of them ... and you managed to find one ugly guy ;D
Minde
Quote from: minde4000 on June 24, 2009, 06:06:34 PM
Test drive @ 3500 rpm ... my hands were shaking there for a second at one moment .. scary to be around without any safety mount and cage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqBlurORT1s
P.S. That cracking sound you hear at the beggining and all the way thru is my coffee maker sorry... rofl
Regards Minde
Great job. You seem to have it perfectly balanced as there appeared to be very little movement of the Ryobi at such high speed. You really should have a safety cage around it. When I was trying to replicate the Whipmag I was using just the air off an air compressor to test spin it up and I still can not find the magnet that broke free and missed my head by inches before bouncing around the room. My test spin was not going anywhere near the speed your Roybi was running so you can expect very large holes in your house walls or body if one magnet was to break free.
Quote from: minde4000 on June 24, 2009, 07:50:17 PM
PS:
There is 313 of them ... and you managed to find one ugly guy ;D
Minde
BUT HE CAN REALLY PLAY THE GUITAR AND SING WELL - ALTHOUGH NOT AS WELL AS YOUR ROTOR AT 3500 RPM -
BUT PLEASE PLAY SAFE! :P
T
Nice MINDE!
well done.
It's also time to proceed experimenting with coil arrangements, gauges, parallel windings etc etc. Its good to see the rotor of yours resembling Mr T's rotor from the very beggining. Mine as you know was not since i tend to proceed from elementary to more complex designs by seeing and learning in the process (it's a curse actually! Too much cost)
..........................................................
I saw you are in search for laminations + coils.Those are pain in the neck :) Mine are ordered and coming from the far America Continent :P) . After some thought those are going to be of two kinds for experimenting.
One relative short and thick http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/IXQCoils16Gauge/ELC55-16-1000
Another long and norrow. http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/IXQCoils16Gauge/ELC56-16-5600
(of course they must be rewired)
I am really curious to see Mr T's effect on those different coil's geometries.
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps: rotor noise come from interaction of air and rotor cavities. My rotor form machined alluminum at 1500 rpm (without any coil around) is not even heard, only the damned bearings :D
Ok, while waiting parts to arive and new action taken i sit back and theorizing just a litte bit.
I want your views regarding Magnetic Field Distortion effects and their relation to (as primary or secondary factor perhaps) to Peripeteia design.
See wikipedia for an initiation on this effect. I was completely unaware that this effect was actually existed. Now it complicates my simple so far view of what happens when bringing close a magnet to a coil. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushed_DC_electric_motor
Note the implications of the effect are Voltage / current curves to be totally incosistent to physical magnet possition in relation to coil, as well as others that i cannot think at the moment.
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps: wikipedia's pics here
Quote from: baroutologos on June 25, 2009, 05:25:44 AM
Nice MINDE!
well done.
It's also time to proceed experimenting with coil arrangements, gauges, parallel windings etc etc. Its good to see the rotor of yours resembling Mr T's rotor from the very beggining. Mine as you know was not since i tend to proceed from elementary to more complex designs by seeing and learning in the process (it's a curse actually! Too much cost)
..........................................................
I saw you are in search for laminations + coils.Those are pain in the neck :) Mine are ordered and coming from the far America Continent :P) . After some thought those are going to be of two kinds for experimenting.
I am really curious to see Mr T's effect on those different coil's geometries.
Regards,
Baroutologos
THIS IS A GREAT CONTRIBUTION - THANKS B.A.R.T.S! ;)
IF YOU HAVE 2 COILS THAT ARE THE SAME - MAY I SUGGEST YO LEAVE ONE AS IS, w/ 16 GAUGE WIRE ON IT (CONVENTIONAL HC COIL) AND REWIRE ANOTHER ONE WITH 26 GAUGE BIFILAR WINDINGS (REGEN HV COIL)?
ALSO I WOULD SUGGEST YOU TRY TO GET I_RON TO MAKE YOU A ROTOR - THERE ARE NONE BETTER! AND HE MAY BE WILLING TO DO IT FOR YOU IF YOU TELL HIM THAT YOU ARE ONLY INTERESTED IN GETTING DATA FOR YOUR NEW:
"THANE-HEINS-IS-A-SHYSTER-AHOLE-AND-THE-PEREPITEIA-IS-A-MUNDANE-HOAX-PIECE-OF-CRAP" THREAD
T
If you have a HV [bifi?]coil standing on the table, and ya drop a magnet on the top side, does it keep bouncing because of the delayed repelling bemf? the characteristics of the coil are chosen in relationship with gravity to get the desired max impedance. the magnet is dropped in a long hollow tube or something.
with a load connected suchas in the perepiteia setup, like a mot and or lampbulbs, no caps to form a tank.
It might bounce a little if you make the coil into a tank circuit. Where the induced power can bounce back and forth between cap and coil. But a coil alone would very hard since they probably have only capacitance in the nF range. And that also means that they can not respond to such low freq inductions.
Quote"THANE-HEINS-IS-A-SHYSTER-AHOLE-AND-THE-PEREPITEIA-IS-A-MUNDANE-HOAX-PIECE-OF-CRAP" THREAD
Couldn't have said it better myself!
As we both know this is your list, it was only mine up until your first post.
But it was fun to pull your string and watch the show....
Dboss, OUman, Polar Breeze, Natan, have all said it much better than I ever did. What I did was quietly and simply point out, with actual evidence, where your theories and models where at odds with the truth. Some people already knew, others will find out for themselves. Not once have you come back with any evidence to the contrary that what I have said is wrong, so I will let my work speak for itself.
Ron
@all,
Picture of setup with neo catcher. Had to do it to test inside, 110 heat index outside. Africa hot.
Thane, my original coil (120 ohm) worked about the same on the Ryobi as on the old higher HP cheap Fred motor. However, the Ryobi runs a couple of hundred rpm's higher at the same input voltage.
I still have a large spool of 28 gauge wire, so next step will be winding a bi-filar coil using that and check the difference.
Thane, exactly why does your rpm's have to be much higher now for acceleration? Asking, because I'm still using the old rotor and would have to upgrade to handle that speed.
Regards, Larry
I don't think there is much argument here, that Thane's claims run counter to the current scientifically accepted viewpoint. In fact, the whole premise of overunity.com is to find "free energy" which represents a violation of the second law of thermodynamics, one of the cornerstones of modern physics. Anyone here at overunity.com is generally looking for a diamond in the mud. Not only will it be highly unlikely that anyone finds one, but even if they do, it will be covered in mud. How do you know if you have a diamond? Wash and test. In the "free energy" sense, the diamond would be a working device that produces energy. The mud is all the ideas and theory both for, and against. To cut to the chase, we won't listen to any theories that Thane may have, but we will put his device on the bench. We remove the bench grinder. We will feed his device a similar, measured amount of torque, at a measured amount of RPM. We will take the output power, rectify/filter it to DC, and measure power across a calibrated, pure resistive load. We then compare the efficiency to a similarly tested alternator, taken from a Honda generator. If Thane's device is better, we cut him a cheque. If its worse, we politely tell him to get lost. Make no mistake, Thanes device will get independently tested like this, before a really big cheque gets cut That is, unless the customer is a fool. Until proper testing, it's all hot air and pretty pictures from all of us here. As for scientific theory, if it works, science will figure it out, and adapt to it, just as it should.
Quote from: i_ron on June 25, 2009, 11:26:46 AM
Dboss, OUman, Polar Breeze, Natan, have all said it much better than I ever did. What I did was quietly and simply point out, with actual evidence, where your theories and models where at odds with the truth. Some people already knew, others will find out for themselves. Not once have you come back with any evidence to the contrary that what I have said is wrong, so I will let my work speak for itself.
Ron
ANY CRITISISM BY ANONYMOUS COWARDS WHO WON'T COME TO THE LAB IS WORHTLESS.
FOR EXAMPLE I SUGGEST NATAN WEISAMN AND NICKOLAI BILLANIUK ARE THEY SAME PERSON AND
NICKOLAI LIVES IN OTTAWA ??? ONLY A COUPLE OF KM's FROM THE UNIVERSITY.
Dboss, OUman, Polar Breeze, Natan, HOPTOAD - WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?
ARE THEY EVEN REAL - OR ARE THEY ALL THE SAME PERSON?
THE TRUTH IS AS ALWAYS - COME TO THE LAB - SEE THE DEMO - PUBLISH DATA AND REPORT.
THE DOORS ARE ALWAYS OPEN.
EXCEPT IF YOU ARE AN CHICKEN SH_T LIKE THE ABOVE MENTIONED.
SCISCOOP ARTICLE WRITTEN BY NATAN WEISMANhttp://www.sciscoop.com/perepiteia-explanation.pdf
SKEPTICS ARTICLE WRITTEN BY NICKOLAI BILLANIUK http://www.ottawaskeptics.org/images/fbfiles/files/explanation_of_Perepiteia_v2.pdf
AS FAR AS YOU BEING RIGHT OR WRONG - YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE DOING NOR DO I SO I CAN'T SAY AND DON'T CARE EITHER.
I AM HERE FOR THE SINCERE LEARNERS - AS LONG AS THEY EXIST I WILL BE HERE TO HELP IF I CAN.
T
Well Thane I have read a bit of these last documents and even from my setup -back then- I can say that the 'acceleration' - whatever that implies or caused it, aside. Can and does happen with universal motors like the washing machine seen below. The other image shows a Cap tuned 1.5hp single phase induction motor driven at rated in sync rpm. In the case of the universal motor the rmp goes up, in the case of the induction motor, the amp draw goes down. Not that it is any news to you, but still thought I'd throw it in.
Steven
Quote from: Nali2001 on June 25, 2009, 08:22:34 PM
Well Thane I have read a bit of these last documents and even from my setup -back then- I can say that the 'acceleration' - whatever that implies or caused it, aside. Can and does happen with universal motors like the washing machine seen below. The other image shows a Cap tuned 1.5hp single phase induction motor driven at rated in sync rpm. In the case of the universal motor the rmp goes up, in the case of the induction motor, the amp draw goes down. Not that it is any news to you, but still thought I'd throw it in.
Steven
IT OCCURRED BECAUSE YOU SATURATED YOUR CORES AND THEY OVERHEATED - PERIOD.
AND WHEN YOU CHANGED THE CORES TO LAMINATIONS THE ACCELERATION DISAPPEARED -
JUST AS YOU STATED MORE THAN A YEAR AGO.THE MOTOR IS IRRELEVANT.
NOW EITHER YOU ARE NOT MAN ENOUGH OR NOT EDUCATED ENOUGH TO COME CLEAN HERE - SO WHICH ONE IS IT?
T
“Nothing can confound a wise man more than laughter from a dunce.â€
- Lord Byron
Quote from: LarryC on June 25, 2009, 05:04:38 PM
Thane, exactly why does your rpm's have to be much higher now for acceleration? Asking, because I'm still using the old rotor and would have to upgrade to handle that speed.
Regards, Larry
THEY DON'T REALLY - CHECK THE LAST VIDEO - I AM GETTING ACCELERATION AT 900 RPM OR LESS WHEN THE HV COILS ARE SHORTED.
NOW IF I WANT TO PRODUCE USEABLE POWER I NEED TO STEP DOWN THE OUTPUT AS I SEE YOU ARE DOING AND THE TRANSFORMER LOAD IS CAUSING THE REQUIRED RPM TO BE HIGHER.
BUT THIS IS NOT ALL THAT IMPORTANT BECAUSE WE WILL SIMPLY BE RECTIFYING OUR OUTPUT AND FEEDING IT INTO BATTERIES SO THERE WILL BE NO NEED TO STEP DOWN THE OUTPUT.
QuoteI still have a large spool of 28 gauge wire, so next step will be winding a bi-filar coil using that and check the difference.
MAKE SURE IT IS TIGHT - AND ARE YOU STILL USING IRON CORES :( IF SO PLEASE REMEMBER THE CORE HYSERESIS CURVE/REACTION TIME WILL IMPEDE COIL PERFORMANCE.
QuoteThane, exactly why does your rpm's have to be much higher now for acceleration? Asking, because I'm still using the old rotor and would have to upgrade to handle that speed.
YOUR FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS SHOULD BE TO CAUSE DECELERATION WITH A LOADED HC COIL AND THEN BE ABLE TO OVERIDE THIS DECELERATION WITH AN HV COIL AND THIS CAN OCCUR AT ANY SPEED.
IN THIS SCENARIO YOU ARE ONLY CHANGING ONE VARIABLE AND YOU CAN ELIMINATE THE MOTOR FROM THE EQUATION BECAUSE THE MOTOR IS A CONTROL VARIABLE.
T
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 25, 2009, 06:01:21 PM
ANY CRITISISM BY ANONYMOUS COWARDS WHO WON'T COME TO THE LAB IS WORHTLESS.
Thane, another analogy here. Think of your critics as rats (good... you already do!). These rats will want to get on board and poop all over your tidy little boat. But don't scream at them, LEARN from them. Once you see where the rats are getting in, you could spend forever chasing rats, or just plug the hole once, and have a more seaworthy boat as a bonus. Remember, water could come in through some of those same holes. Learning from the rats could save you from sinking.
QuoteTHE TRUTH IS AS ALWAYS - COME TO THE LAB - SEE THE DEMO - PUBLISH DATA AND REPORT.
THE DOORS ARE ALWAYS OPEN.
I AM HERE FOR THE SINCERE LEARNERS - AS LONG AS THEY EXIST I WILL BE HERE TO HELP IF I CAN.
T
I admire this kind of open door attitude. Why not Invite forum member Tinsel Koala over for a look, or arrange to visit his lab. I'm pretty sure he said he was based in Toronto (almost 5 hour drive, though) . TK knows how to make the kind of measurements that scientists respect. I've learned volumes from reading his posts. Even if he is too busy to visit, (or wishes to remain anonymous) any advice he gives you, will be well worth it.
Quote from: baroutologos on June 25, 2009, 07:17:46 AM
Ok, while waiting parts to arive and new action taken i sit back and theorizing just a litte bit.
I want your views regarding Magnetic Field Distortion effects and their relation to (as primary or secondary factor perhaps) to Peripeteia design.
See wikipedia for an initiation on this effect. I was completely unaware that this effect was actually existed. Now it complicates my simple so far view of what happens when bringing close a magnet to a coil. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushed_DC_electric_motor
Note the implications of the effect are Voltage / current curves to be totally incosistent to physical magnet possition in relation to coil, as well as others that i cannot think at the moment.
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps: wikipedia's pics here
Hi,
I still wait Mr T (and from others fellow believers :P) your views about Magnetic Field distortion effects and relation to Peripeteia generator.
Regards,
Baroutologos
@critics. Have not been tired yet?
Apart from theorizing, let's speak about facts n' figures.
@Inventor,
Ok, i understand from an experimental point of view that is better the biffilar coils than single wire wound ones. But how much?
In using the same gauge wire, same length in your given setup (rotor, magnet gap, coil cores etc) what's the difference in power-generating terms of biffilar vs single wound?
................................................
Series connecting coils and low wire gauge
I am also thinking what you said about higher gauge wire (18 AWG - 1mm) and its expected output.
If you make an nice accellarating coil of 30 awg the resulting coil thickness/weight is not much.
if you go 24 awg its much. Going 22awg (as u did) you created an huge coil mass.
Planning and going at 18agw, the coil should be very very big to suit your rotor apart that would weight some 5-10 kgr. (lol ;D)
What you think about making 2 or 3 coils of 18 awg of reasonable dimensions , and by series connecting them to stack the accellaration effect as you have pointed out.
By the way, i am in no way in a possition to issue directions, but just i express my ideas since you are the most capable of doing this for the time being.
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps: I wait with great anxiety a new video of more power out!
Quote from: derricka on June 25, 2009, 11:36:45 PM
Learning from the rats could save you from sinking.
ACTUALLY YOU ARE RIGHT - RATS ARE VERY IMPORTANT - I FORGOT HOW IMPORTANT THEY REALLY ARE.
MY ISSUE IS WHEN THE BLIND AND DEAF RATS DECIDE THEY WANT TO DRIVE THE BOAT.
QuoteI admire this kind of open door attitude. Why not Invite forum member Tinsel Koala over for a look, or arrange to visit his lab.
THIS OPEN DOOR ATTITUDE IS A CRITICAL COMPONENT - AND WHAT PART OF
"EVERYONE IS WELCOME" EXCLUDES FORUM MEMBERS?
GOTOLUC IS A WELL RESPECTED FORUM MEMBER SENT TO CHECK OUT THE TECHNOLOGY WHEN IT WENT TO OTTAWA U.
HE STAYED FOR 3 OR 4 MONTHS TO HELP.
COLE BECAME A MEMBER AFTER HE VISITED THE LAB.
IT WOULDN'T MATTER IF JESUS WAS A FORUM MEMBER - INTEGRITY-LESS BOTTOM FEEDERS HIDING BEHIND NICKNAMES CAN NEVER BE SATISFIED.
T
Quote from: baroutologos on June 26, 2009, 02:48:16 AM
Hi,
I still wait Mr T (and from others fellow believers :P) your views about Magnetic Field distortion effects and relation to Peripeteia generator.
Regards,
Baroutologos
@critics. Have not been tired yet?
SORRY I HAVE NO COMMENT ON MAGNETIC FIELD DISTORTION.
CRITICS USE CRITISISM TO DEFLECT ATTENTION AWAY FROM THEIR OWN IMPOTENCE.
SINCERE PEOPLE ASK QUESTIONS AND ARE WILLING TO EXPOSE THEIR TEMPORARY IGNORANCE.
T
Quote from: baroutologos on June 26, 2009, 04:54:07 AM
Apart from theorizing, let's speak about facts n' figures.
@Inventor,
Ok, i understand from an experimental point of view that is better the biffilar coils than single wire wound ones. But how much?
WHO CARES? - ROUND WHEELS WORK BETTER ON YOUR CAR THAN SQUARE ONES SO WHY NOT JUST ACCEPT IT AND USE THEM?
QuoteIn using the same gauge wire, same length in your given setup (rotor, magnet gap, coil cores etc) what's the difference in power-generating terms of biffilar vs single wound?
GOOGLE BIFILAR COIL AND PARASITIC CAPACITANCE.
Quote................................................
Series connecting coils and low wire gauge
I am also thinking what you said about higher gauge wire (18 AWG - 1mm) and its expected output.
If you make an nice accellarating coil of 30 awg the resulting coil thickness/weight is not much.
if you go 24 awg its much. Going 22awg (as u did) you created an huge coil mass.
Planning and going at 18agw, the coil should be very very big to suit your rotor apart that would weight some 5-10 kgr. (lol ;D)
What you think about making 2 or 3 coils of 18 awg of reasonable dimensions , and by series connecting them to stack the accellaration effect as you have pointed out.
Regards,
Baroutologos
THE NEXT COILS WILL BE 18 GAUGE BIFILAR ON THE SAME CORES AS CURRENTLY USED TO PROVIDE COMPARISON DATA.
3 COILS ADDS MORE CORE LOSSES AND CHANGES THE INDEPENDENT VARIABLE - WHICH IS NOT A GOOD IDEA.
QuoteBy the way, i am in no way in a possition to issue directions, but just i express my ideas since you are the most capable of doing this for the time being.
FUNNY THING, I_RON USED TO SAY THAT AS WELL?
NOW HE IS THE MASTER AND KNOWS BETTER - AND I AM THE IDIOT.
Quoteps: I wait with great anxiety a new video of more power out!
DO YOU KNOW HOW TO KEEP AN IDIOT IN SUSPENSE?
PLEASE - TELL ME TOMORROW... :D
T
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 26, 2009, 07:03:51 AM
SORRY I HAVE NO COMMENT ON MAGNETIC FIELD DISTORTION.
CRITICS USE CRITISISM TO DEFLECT ATTENTION AWAY FROM THEIR OWN IMPOTENCE.
SINCERE PEOPLE ASK QUESTIONS AND ARE WILLING TO EXPOSE THEIR TEMPORARY IGNORANCE.
T
sincere inventors respect genuine questions or critic and are willing to ignore their ignorance temporarily ;)
Quote from: baroutologos on June 26, 2009, 04:54:07 AM
Apart from theorizing, let's speak about facts n' figures.
@Inventor,
Ok, i understand from an experimental point of view that is better the biffilar coils than single wire wound ones. But how much?
the bemf field is current dependent, the bemf voltage is passing flux dependent.
by using a bifilar, you create the conditions for minimum current and lots of voltage between the turns.
passing magnetic field induces voltage between the wires, the current starts flowing from the coil 'as a capacitor' towards the load when impedance disappears [HV coil = LC tank circuit = max impedance at resonance, capacitive beyond resonance = minimal self induction in coil], creating the magnetic field according to lenz law, by 90 degree delayed.
correct me if i'm wrong
LOL, you right perhaps i speak more than enough, since in my job i have "enough" time to spare.
By the way, I will claim the MASTER's possition since i beat you in output terms :P (prepare, pistols at the dawn etc). On the other hand, who wants master's place??? It comes with extensive fire-taking from the fierce opposition.
In any case, you lead the way and i really consider you my mentor on this. :D
...........................
@ ALan,
I am very unconviced so far that this is a resonance effect. Anyway time will tell.
Regards,
Baroutologos the apprentice
ps: What is the idependent variable in this case?
ps2: i would just shut up till having new data to present
beyond resonance where capacitance of the coil takes over.
proof for this is the acceleration
Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 25, 2009, 10:29:09 PM
NOW IF I WANT TO PRODUCE USEABLE POWER I NEED TO STEP DOWN THE OUTPUT AS I SEE YOU ARE DOING AND THE TRANSFORMER LOAD IS CAUSING THE REQUIRED RPM TO BE HIGHER.
Yes, I've witness that effect, but not as high a rpm, was wondering if the lower ohm's with larger diameter wire was part of the requirement for the higher rpm's.
QuoteBUT THIS IS NOT ALL THAT IMPORTANT BECAUSE WE WILL SIMPLY BE RECTIFYING OUR OUTPUT AND FEEDING IT INTO BATTERIES SO THERE WILL BE NO NEED TO STEP DOWN THE OUTPUT.
Okay, I'll try rectifying with the new cores.
QuoteMAKE SURE IT IS TIGHT - AND ARE YOU STILL USING IRON CORES :( IF SO PLEASE REMEMBER THE CORE HYSERESIS CURVE/REACTION TIME WILL IMPEDE COIL PERFORMANCE.
Tight windings is not a problem and I will not be using the old iron cores. Still working on the best alternative.
Thanks, Larry
@ ALL,
I AM FINALLY GETTING SOME GOOD RESULTS WITH THE TRANSFORMER - VIRTUALLY NO INCREASE IN PRIMARY CURRENT (ON LOAD) AND VIRTUALLY NO CHANGE IN PRIMARY POWER FACTOR (ON LOAD).
FOR A CONVENTIONAL TRANSFORMER THE CURRENT OUGHT TO INCREASE (ON LOAD) AND THE POWER FACTOR OUGHT TO BE THE SAME AS THE LOAD.
SO ALMOST ALL THE POWER IN THE BI-TOROID PRIMARY IS REACTIVE POWER (ON LOAD) - MEANING THE TRUE POWER IN THE PRIMARY (ON LOAD) IS ZERO OR CLOSE TO IT.
VIDEO ON THE MORROW. 8)
T
BI-TOROID PHOTO DATA.
T
Was this also based on the retarded lenz effect?
Quote from: alan on June 27, 2009, 05:24:19 AM
Was this also based on the retarded lenz effect?
NO THE
RETARDED THANE EFFECT. :D
T
PS
THERE IS A DESCRIPTION OF THE TRANSFORMER OPERATION SOMEWHERE ON THE OLD THREAD - PERHAPS SOMEONE CAN DIG IT OUT? :)
AT ANY RATE THE PHYSICAL MODEL IS ALMOST IDENTIACL IN OPERATION TO THE CONCEPTUALIZED MODEL
WHEN SECONDARY 1 AND SECONDARY 2 ARE ON LOAD THEIR BACK EMF INDUCED FLUXES ENTER EACH OTHER AND MAINTAIN THE VOLTAGE ACROSS THE LOAD RATHER THAN GOING DOWN THE HIGHER RELUCTANCE PRIMARY FLUX PATH - CAUSING THE PRIMARY IMPEDENCE TO DROP AND DRAW MORE SOURCE CURRENT.
I GUESS I SHOULD REMOVE THIS AND POST IT ON THE OLD THREAD - SINCE IT DOES NOT APPLY HERE?IN THE VIDEO THE PRIMARY CURRENT ACTUALLY DECREASES BUT 3 OR 4 mA ONCE PLACED ON LOAD
HERE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq_yGELmhV4
T
AT ANY RATE THE PHYSICAL MODEL IS ALMOST IDENTIACL IN OPERATION TO THE CONCEPTUALIZED MODEL
WHEN SECONDARY 1 AND SECONDARY 2 ARE ON LOAD THEIR BACK EMF INDUCED FLUXES ENTER EACH OTHER AND MAINTAIN THE VOLTAGE ACROSS THE LOAD RATHER THAN GOING DOWN THE HIGHER RELUCTANCE PRIMARY FLUX PATH - CAUSING THE PRIMARY IMPEDENCE TO DROP AND DRAW MORE SOURCE CURRENT.
Dear Thane,
Congradulations!
You mention above CONCEPTUALIZED MODEL, do you have simulations for this system?
How do you calculate coupling and power factor for bifilar coil?
Do you have more resource and technical documents on this system?
Best Regards,
Nuri Temurlenk
So "acceleration" effect is not really acceleration effect it is more like a coggin torque + lenz "relief" effect. AC 2 pole induction motor will ALWAYS try to synchronize with 3600 rpm as long as it has enough torque (voltage in particular motor and case) to overcome the resistive load (it speeds up to ~3600 rpm even @ 40V no load). Seems like the more coils we are using the more relief we get. How about using 8-11 coils or double sided with 16-22 coils with coggin and lenz almost eliminated (some 3500rpm) and cause prime mover to draw minimum power while in a mean time harvest generator output without killing the effects? Starting system acceleration could be achieved by converting 50%-100% of the generator coils into startup driving (as many have said before) and then switch to regenerative mode.
I understand saying is easy doing is not due to financial issues mostly but open mind colaboration is always great. Looks like it depends of what point of view you looks at this. Prime mover point of view - just a relief (because system does not reach 3600rpm). In comparision with regular generator point of view looks like acceleration (vs speed decrease in regular gen).
relief <3500rpm< acceleration 100rpm loss due to rotor "natural" resistance
Minde
Yes MInde, from so far observations, clues point out that accelarations is not accerelation indeed.
This clearly could be seen in the videos when Thane closes the motor, the system slows down damn fast.
On the other hand I have noticed that when the coils are shorted the system goes as "lubricated" and cog free to a degree. (when i put two coils simultaneously on two magnets when shorted cogging torque minimized but still there)
The most important about Perepiteia as i understand it so far is that It's lenz's-less generator. With some stray losses anyway as all machinery has.
My huntch says that if you add 10 "state of the art" coils at 3500 rpm with minimum input consumption you most likely have your FE machine.
Of course if the inventor has any different view on that , he has nothing more to do than to put the system to full throtle and go some 4000 rmp or well above :) in the particular grinder at the same voltage rates.
Regards,
Baroutologos
If that would be the case I wonder why then T said he is going after non accelerating nor decelerating max power output design. And then I tought he mentioned before he was after eliminating coggin and lenz that would mean going after "acceleration" design wich would permit multiple coil/rotor use on single prime mover in the future. But this would be the case if baroutologos is right.
Cheers
Quote from: baroutologos on June 27, 2009, 02:31:48 PM
1) Yes MInde, from so far observations, clues point out that accelarations is not accerelation indeed. My huntch says that if you add 10 "state of the art" coils at 3500 rpm with minimum input consumption you most likely have your FE machine.
2) Of course if the inventor has any different view on that , he has nothing more to do than to put the system to full throtle and go some 4000 rmp or well above :) in the particular grinder at the same voltage rates.
Baroutologos
relief <3500rpm< acceleration
You just went for both. You cant go above 3600rpm on dipole ac induction without physically adding acceleration at any throttle (rofl). It will start acting as brake and should be disconnected to allow "self" runner now - to accelerate :) so thats why I think this is not acceleration. If you need prime mover to sustain working rpm it means your effect is relief and not acceleration.
EDIT: unless we have never seen many coils working together maybe they are accelerating. T will tell
Minde
@TH
I am planning on having a rotor made by my local machinist and also some other parts.
But I will not do anything until I have all the idea in my head and can put it all on paper so I have some questions and will have more questions.
One of my questions is regarding the HV Coil. Lately I have been looking at all sorts of designs for coils and have basically understood that most systems with coils will have one polarity to do nothing but waste energy or work potential. What a waste.
So here is an idea I have regarding the HV coil. If it has curved ends that point towards the magnets, then you could have both ends going to the magnets hence have double the acceleration (or cogging dampener) effect on the drive motor.
I am putting up a diagram of what I mean below. The side view shows the cores pointing to the magnets. The front view shows several cores with one side to a north and the other to a south pole. You can have one or more as needed.
So what would be your educated guess on chances of this being suitable for such a usage.
wattsup
Quote from: wattsup on June 27, 2009, 08:15:38 PM
@TH
I am planning on having a rotor made by my local machinist and also some other parts.
But I will not do anything until I have all the idea in my head and can put it all on paper so I have some questions and will have more questions.
One of my questions is regarding the HV Coil. Lately I have been looking at all sorts of designs for coils and have basically understood that most systems with coils will have one polarity to do nothing but waste energy or work potential. What a waste.
So here is an idea I have regarding the HV coil. If it has curved ends that point towards the magnets, then you could have both ends going to the magnets hence have double the acceleration (or cogging dampener) effect on the drive motor.
I am putting up a diagram of what I mean below. The side view shows the cores pointing to the magnets. The front view shows several cores with one side to a north and the other to a south pole. You can have one or more as needed.
So what would be your educated guess on chances of this being suitable for such a usage.
wattsup
CLOSING THE MAGNETIC CIRCUIT IS THE ONLY WAY TO DO IT... !
I WOULD SUGGEST THAT YOU STAGGER YOUR COILS TO REDUCE INITIAL COGGING TORQUE OR PUT YOUR COILS ON A "DOOR" AND BRING THEM IN TOWARDS THE ROTOR GRAGUALLY WHILE IN ACCELERATION MODE OR YOU WILL REQUIRE A HUGE MOTOR TO GET YOUR ROTOR STARTED.
THE DIAGRAM BELOW SHOWS HOW THE COILS ARE STAGGERED BETWEEN THE MAGNETS (O) SUCH THAT COGGING TORQUE IS MINIMIZED.
ALSO INSTEAD OF PLACING THE COILS DIRECTLY OVER THE MAGNETS YOU CAN PUT THEM AS SHOWN.
l---C O I L ---l
l l
O O O
l l
l---C O I L ---l
YOUR METHOD:
O---C O I L ---O---C O I L ---O
ALSO MAKE SURE YOU ARE USING PARALLEL WOUND SERIES CONNECTED BIFILAR COILS WOUND TIGHTLY.
CHEERS
T
Quote from: samedsoft on June 27, 2009, 01:03:33 PM
Dear Thane,
Congradulations!
You mention above CONCEPTUALIZED MODEL, do you have simulations for this system?
How do you calculate coupling and power factor for bifilar coil?
FIRST OF ALL THE POWER FACTOR IS SHOWN ON THE SIILY-SCOPE IN THE VIDEO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq_yGELmhV4&feature=channel_page
THE POWER FACTOR OF THE CONVENTIONAL COIL MATCHES THE LOAD POWER FACTOR OF 1 AND IS SHOWN ON LOAD WHEN THE CURRENT AND VOLTAGE SINE WAVES ARE IN PHASE.
CONVENTIONAL COIL PRIMARY POWER = CURRENT x VOLTAGE x POWER FACTOR ( 1 )
THE BI-TOROID POWER FACTOR REMAINS AT ZERO (OR CLOSE TO IT) BOTH OFF LOAD AND ON LOAD - THIS MEANS THAT THE CURRENT IN THE PRIMARY IS REACTIVE AS IS THE POWER AND THE PRIMARY POWER IS ZERO WHEN ON LOAD.
BI-TOROID PRIMARY POWER = CURRENT x VOLTAGE x POWER FACTOR ( 0 )
BI-TOROID PRIMARY POWER = 0
(IF THE POWER FACTOR = 0)
THE "CONCEPTUALIZED MODEL" WAS DONE ON PAPER - SIMULATIONS EXISTED ONLY IN MY HEAD. :P
QuoteDo you have more resource and technical documents on this system?
Best Regards,
Nuri Temurlenk
WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET - NEXT STEPS INCLUDE A NEW PRIMARY ON A NEW CORE WITH A BETTER PHYSICAL COUPLING TO THE TOROID - DUCT TAPE CAN ONLY TAKE YOU SO FAR.
CHEERS
T
Theorizing 101, :P
I was thinking the other days about bifilar/series connected coil setups, parasitic capacitance, impedance and voltage relations regarding Perepiteia.
Coil's Impedance or Capacitance does the Job?
...............................................................
I was wondering that maybe the coil's capacitance does all the job (or most of it) here and not impedance.
The reasoning.
HV coils have large impedance that logically impedes current. OK but, HV coils are high voltage coils. That means the generate much higher voltages, consequently they have easier time at overcoming coil impedance.
But, one should argue that less current then will flow.
On the other hand the less current will produce a large magnetic field since too many turns involved.
Bottom line, in case impedance rise at the same rate as voltages does (or doesn't it?), then the delayed current due to coil's impedance is not the case.
Biffilar Coil / series connected (CAPACITOR coil)
..................................................................
Ok, it has been extensively mentioned by the inventor last weeks that the CAPACITOR coil is the way to go.
Question, how this coil really works? It has been mentioned that it is charged by the magnet's induced voltage and discharges as voltage colapses. This leads to another question. How the cap-coil can be charged without current flowing through it (since impedance prohibits it???)
Imagine the process since we lack any scientific measurement equipment to do that.
Voltage stimulation---> charge state with no current flowing, voltage collapses ----> current flowing ???
Regenerative accelaration or Lenz'less coils?
...........................................................
For this one, we have concrete data so far that HV coils do not add mechinal power to rotor rather than they aleviate it from drag while creating energy.
Unless of course, the Inventor cleverly has managed so far in any of his videos not to show any definite sign of that (by going on that grinder say 3700rpm or maintain rotation with grinder off)
On the other hand, if we are to accept no mechanical energy is produced, .i.e no push of the HV coil at magnet while leaving, then what does the magnetic field does wehn is formulated? If does not drags or does not pushes, then does what????
DC Resistance and Accellaration Effect
......................................................
At last and not least, i cannot phathom how the heck any resistance to coil' output reduces accelaration effects (????)
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps: Theorizing is too sweet to resist!
ps2: There is more that meets the eye, isn't it?
Quote from web
Bifilar type of coil, when powered does not create an external magnetic field. Its construction is similar to that of a normal solenoid, but each turn of the coil carries the current in opposite directions. The opposing currents create an overall canceling effect, thus no major external field is produced. A bifilar coil will produce almost no inductance to a changing, or AC current. This makes them useful for creating non-inductive wire wound resistors.
Depends on the type of bifilar.
What you quoted is what the middle drawing would do.
It cancels itself out.
The first drawing is Tesla's "coil for electro magnets"
http://www.tfcbooks.com/patents/512340.htm (http://www.tfcbooks.com/patents/512340.htm)
Quote from: minde4000 on June 29, 2009, 12:41:30 PM
Quote from web
Bifilar type of coil, when powered does not create an external magnetic field. Its construction is similar to that of a normal solenoid, but each turn of the coil carries the current in opposite directions. The opposing currents create an overall canceling effect, thus no major external field is produced. A bifilar coil will produce almost no inductance to a changing, or AC current. This makes them useful for creating non-inductive wire wound resistors.
@Minde
There is a number of ways to connect bifillar coils. I have fun plying with them.
One interesting aspect is that, if you put DMM's lead to (say) coil's a start of wire -say point A- and the other DMM's lead to coil's b end of wire - say point B'- the multimeter registers voltage (!!) but current cannot flow. (since the other ends do not close) ;)
Bifillar coils or CAP coils
...........................................
I was pondering again in bifillar coils. From Tesla's patent and reason, it is clearly evident that they formulate an RLC circuit. (with C element much stronger than signle wire coils)
We all know that in series setup, the capacitative element at correct frequency negates impedance's action.
So, bye bye impedance :o ? Current is not delayed anymore by impedance ????
Invetor confirms anyway biffilar is the way to go. So, we must definately reconsider impedance's role here.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Thanks baroutologos. I should get some laminates this weekend and I have a coil winding machine/garbage so I hope I will have something running next week.
Minde
Quote from: wattsup on June 27, 2009, 08:15:38 PM
@TH
One of my questions is regarding the HV Coil. Lately I have been looking at all sorts of designs for coils and have basically understood that most systems with coils will have one polarity to do nothing but waste energy or work potential.
So what would be your educated guess on chances of this being suitable for such a usage.
wattsup
WU,
HERE ARE A FEW EXAMPLES OF YOUR PLAN - YOUR CHANCES ARE 100% GOOD!
T
@TH
What in tarnations are them things Jed. Why, they look like little giblets. lol
Did you build this since a few days. If so, incredible. Man are you fast or what.
I was looking into the coil with curved laminate and found some nice pictures of ready made square coils (1) that can be just cut in the center laminate. Also the term R-Core Transformer also shown below (2-3-4) can be cut in the center.
What I really like about looking for standard is so others could try it later, if it works. Also, at this particular supplier shown below, they have their specs so you already know what the laminate and coils can handle in their standard usage.
If I got a few of these, then I could have the wheel made based on the curve distances to spec the wheel dimensions, number of magnets and placement of magnets. That's the only bummer with curved laminates. Since the laminates are curved, their positioning becomes finite or greatly limited. And the usage become particular to the wheel dimension and magnet spacing.
Anyways, I will write to these guys and see if they can pre-cut them in half and wind the length and awg of my choice. lol That would be a dream come true. I wonder if they know what bifilar means. lol
http://www.rn-core.com/english/products/index.asp
Some more questions. Sorry if these have been asked before but it would save alot of time looking through 4?? something pages.
What magnets are you using?
Is there a standard build spec anywhere?
Did you ever put your scope on a shorted coil while in acceleration mode?
@ Inventor,
IS THERE ANYTHING YOU HAVEN'T TRIED YET? :)
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps: Motor arrived, machining #2 on the process. In about a week i am to be operational :D - ΠΕΡΙΠΕΤΕΙÎ' v2
Quote from: wattsup on June 30, 2009, 11:38:55 PM
Some more questions. Sorry if these have been asked before but it would save alot of time looking through 4?? something pages.
What magnets are you using?
Is there a standard build spec anywhere?
Did you ever put your scope on a shorted coil while in acceleration mode?
70 lb PULLING WEIGHT, 1 " MAGNETS FROM K&J MAGNETS
NO SBS
NO SHORTED - BUT ON LOAD YES (CAN A SCOPE READ A SHORTED COIL?).
THOSE COILS HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR MORE THAN A YEAR.
THE BOTTOM PHOTO WITH THE RED COIL AT THE TOP IS MADE WITH L BRACKETS FROM HOME DEPOT AND IT WORKS VERY WELL.
THE OTHER COILS ARE VARIATIONS OF THE SAME THEME.
THAT SQUARE YELLOW COILED TRANSFORMER WOULD WORK WELL WITH TWO ROTORS I BET.
HAPPY CANADA DAY TO ALL!
T
@TH
'NO SHORTED - BUT ON LOAD YES (CAN A SCOPE READ A SHORTED COIL?).'
Yep. Just put the one probe one the connection but maybe set the probe selector switch to the 10x level first. If you can't see anything, then put it to 1x, It would be really really nice to see how the wave form is when the rotor magnets hit that shorted coil.
"THOSE COILS HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR MORE THAN A YEAR."
Geez I was wondering how could someone work so fast.
"THE BOTTOM PHOTO WITH THE RED COIL AT THE TOP IS MADE WITH L BRACKETS FROM HOME DEPOT AND IT WORKS VERY WELL."
Yes I noticed those and also the way your turned the core laminations to follow the direction of the magnet travel. This magnet travel versus laminations means a dual-coil could not be used from one top to one bottom magnet since the laminations risk being perpendicular to the magnets travel. So the only real way of using them is if one side is at one magnet and the other is at the next magnet or the third magnet away if they are NSNSNS.
Quote from: wattsup on July 01, 2009, 01:05:13 PM
@TH
'NO SHORTED - BUT ON LOAD YES (CAN A SCOPE READ A SHORTED COIL?).'
Yep. Just put the one probe one the connection but maybe set the probe selector switch to the 10x level first. If you can't see anything, then put it to 1x, It would be really really nice to see how the wave form is when the rotor magnets hit that shorted coil.
Even better, if you could scope voltage, current and magnetic polarity on a HV coil/core while in acceleration mode. This would prove it is working as you clearly explained in reply #224 and eliminate any more speculation about the cause of the acceleration. Then all could just focus on replicating and enhancing that effect.
Regards, Larry
http://books.google.nl/books?id=Y5bOI0YdWesC&printsec=frontcover
chapter x and xii may be of some interest
@ ALL
SOME CLOSE UP SCOPE SHOTS OF A NEW PRIMARY WITH A HIGHER INPUT VOLTAGE.
THE POWER FACTOR IS VIRTUALLY UNCHANGED WITH A SLIGHT CURRENT INCREASE.
THE LAST PICTURE IS THE CONVENTIONAL TRANSFORMER.
T
.
Dear THANE,
I am a bit confused. Are you drawing pure Reactive power from the grid?
If yes, It is illegal to draw reactive power and you should have CosPhi=0.90 in Turkey by new EU compatibility laws. You can get fined for this if it is true..
Please let me know..
Take care.
Quote from: samedsoft on July 04, 2009, 09:41:36 AM
Dear THANE,
I am a bit confused. Are you drawing pure Reactive power from the grid?
If yes, It is illegal to draw reactive power and you should have CosPhi=0.90 in Turkey by new EU compatibility laws. You can get fined for this if it is true..
Please let me know..
Take care.
Hi,
Is it difficult to make power factor much better by capacitors in this case?
The catch is you drive real loads from Thane's transformer and still draw a little power by compensating the primary coil's otherwise inductive load, forming a parallel resonant primary circuit. I think it could be done, question is whether Thane's transformer behaves also favorably when doing PF compensation?
rgds, Gyula
Quote from: samedsoft on July 04, 2009, 09:41:36 AM
Dear THANE,
I am a bit confused. Are you drawing pure Reactive power from the grid?
YES USING PURELY
REACTIVE POWER (or very close) IN THE PRIMARY Pf = 0
AND PRODUCING PURELY
REAL POWER ACROSS THE LOAD Pf = 1
PRIMARY COIL POWER = V x I x Pf
LOAD POWER = V x I x 1
IF PRIMARY Pf = 0 THEN PRIMARY POWER CONSUMPTION = 0 WATTS
QuoteIf yes, It is illegal to draw reactive power and you should have CosPhi=0.90 in Turkey by new EU compatibility laws. You can get fined for this if it is true..
1ST -
I DON'T LIVE IN TURKEY. THE LAST TIME WAS THERE WAS WHEN I GOT CAUGHT SMUGGLING HASH ONTO AN AIRPLANE AND SPENT TIME IN A TURKISH PRISON - THEY MADE A MOVIE ABOUT ME I THINK?
2ND -
WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT DRAWING POWER FROM THE GRID - THIS COULD BE USED IN THE GENERATOR TO ISOLATE THE GENERATOR FROM THE LOAD AND TO KEEP THE GENERATOR COIL POWER FACTOR AT 0 WHILE THE LOAD POWER FACTOR = 1
QuotePlease let me know..
Take care.
NOW YOU KNOW
T
Dear Thane,
You are the MAN.. :D
1ST -
I DON'T LIVE IN TURKEY. THE LAST TIME WAS THERE WAS WHEN I GOT CAUGHT SMUGGLING HASH ONTO AN AIRPLANE AND SPENT TIME IN A TURKISH PRISON - THEY MADE A MOVIE ABOUT ME I THINK?
Maybe thats why they denied me come to Canada ha? :) Fuc- em...
Well next time you wont have any problems, trust me. :) They let everybody to pass border nowadays... It is becoming free pass country.. to increase Tourism I guess.
Come in for a vacation in Bodrum or Antalya.. And we can meet in Istanbul when you turn back..... :)
2ND -
WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT DRAWING POWER FROM THE GRID - THIS COULD BE USED IN THE GENERATOR TO ISOLATE THE GENERATOR FROM THE LOAD AND TO KEEP THE GENERATOR COIL POWER FACTOR AT 0 WHILE THE LOAD POWER FACTOR = 1
You are completely right on it. But alternator has to produce Reactive power in this case?
As I know Stamford Alternators we use have about CosPhi=0.8. So I am again mixed up.. You may imagine what i am saying..
What about Your Peripetia Generator design? Have you coupled em and got some results?
Sorry for my stupid questions..
Take care.
Quote from: samedsoft on July 04, 2009, 11:56:34 AM
Dear Thane,
As I know Stamford Alternators we use have about CosPhi=0.8. So I am again mixed up.. You may imagine what i am saying..
What about Your Peripetia Generator design? Have you coupled em and got some results?
Take care.
THE STAMFORD ALTERNATORS HAVE AN ELECTRONICALLY CONTROLLED AND TRANSFORMER REGULATED VOLTAGE - WHICH PROVIDES THE 0.8 POWER FACTOR.
THIS 0.8 Pf MEANS THAT THERE IS ALWAYS AN ARMATURE REACTION LOAD IN THE GENERATOR.
NOW IMAGINE IF THE SAME GENERATOR COULD OPERATE WITH A 0.0 Pf AND STILL PRODUCE AN OUTPUT WITH A 1.0 Pf?
THE GENERATOR WOULD NEVER "SEE" THE LOAD EITHER MAGNETICALLY OR ELECTICALLY - NO MATTER HOW GREAT THE LOAD...
TAKING CARE
T
Hello Mr Heins,
I would be grateful, if you can share your lights please.
Core saturation considerations
.............................................
Can you illustrate in a nutshell the core saturation issue and its performance effect on generator (Peripeteia for this instance). What's your experience?
This effect contributes to power loss as heat?
Is it increasing with frequency?
Is it a metter of special attention? SHould i be worried about?
Flux intensity / power production
............................................
From attached pic bellow, according your experience, is there any difference?
Thanks in advance
REgards,
Baroutologos
ps: machining commencing (flywheel, 12pole rotor, motor driven etc)
Quote from: CRANKYpants on July 05, 2009, 10:41:29 AM
NOW IMAGINE IF THE SAME GENERATOR COULD OPERATE WITH A 0.0 Pf AND STILL PRODUCE AN OUTPUT WITH A 1.0 Pf?
TAKING CARE
T
Thane,
I believe you are mis-stating power factor. Power factor is the ratio of real power flowing to the load to the apparent power. . When power factor is equal to 0, the energy flow is entirely reactive, and stored energy in the load returns to the source on each cycle. When the power factor is “1â€, all the energy supplied by the source is consumed by the load.
So the ideal PF is “1â€. For example, to get 1 kW of real power, if the power factor is “1â€, 1 kVA of apparent power needs to be transferred (1 kW ÷ 1 = 1 kVA). At low values of power factor, more apparent power needs to be transferred to get the same real power. To get 1 kW of real power at 0.2 power factor, 5 kVA of apparent power needs to be transferred (1 kW ÷ 0.2 = 5 kVA).
So power factor is a sys tem measurement and it is incorrect to say that a generator, by itself, has a PF of “0â€, only the sys tem of the generator, load and connecting wires can have a “power factorâ€. Now note that as the sys tem power factor approaches “0†then the apparent power increases dramatically which necessitates a huge increase in wire size to carry the increased power without loss.
With thanks to wiki… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor
Ron
Quote from: baroutologos on July 06, 2009, 06:54:25 AM
Hello Mr Heins,
I would be grateful, if you can share your lights please.
Core saturation considerations
.............................................
Can you illustrate in a nutshell the core saturation issue and its performance effect on generator (Peripeteia for this instance). What's your experience?
This effect contributes to power loss as heat?
Is it increasing with frequency?
Is it a metter of special attention? SHould i be worried about?
REgards,
Baroutologos
I HAVE NO EXPERIENCE WITH CORE SATURATION AND WOULD CONSIDER IT TO BE A PROBLEM - IF IT DID OCCUR (AND IT HAS NOT) I WOULD INCREASE THE CORE SIZE AND OR CORE QUALITY TO ELIMINATE IT ASAP.
IN "B" PIC I WOULD PUT WINDINGS ON THE LEFT CORE AND OFFSET IT SO THAT IT FELL IN BETWEEN
THE MAGNETS TO REDUCE COGGING TORQUE.
T
Quote from: i_ron on July 06, 2009, 11:24:31 AM
Thane,
I believe you are mis-stating power factor. Power factor is the ratio of real power flowing to the load to the apparent power. .
POWER FACTOR IS A NUMERICAL REPRESENTATION OF THE PHASE ANGLE BETWEEN THE VOLTAGE AND CURRENT OR HOW MUCH THE CURRENT LAGS THE VOLTAGE IN AN INDUCTOR.
REAL POWER = V x I x Pf
QuoteWhen power factor is equal to 0, the energy flow is entirely reactive, and stored energy in the load returns to the source on each cycle. When the power factor is “1â€, all the energy supplied by the source is consumed by the load.
YES EXACTLY - THE BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER HAS A POWER FACTOR OF 0 (OR VERY CLOSE) AND ALL THE ENERGY IS REACTIVE (OR MOST OF IT) SO THE REAL POWER CONSUMTION IN THE PRIMARY IS 0 (OR CLOSE TO IT).
BUT THE LOAD POWER FACTOR IS 1 AND ALL REAL POWER IS CONSUMED (VIRTUALLY).
SO THE BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER USES (ALMOST ALL) REACTIVE POWER TO PRODUCE ONLY REAL POWER (OR VERY CLOSE).
QuoteSo power factor is a sys tem measurement and it is incorrect to say that a generator, by itself, has a PF of “0â€, only the sys tem of the generator, load and connecting wires can have a “power factorâ€.
With thanks to wiki… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor
Ron
A GENERATOR ON "NO LOAD"
STILL HAS A LOAD.
THAT LOAD IS THE GENERATOR COIL'S DC RESISTANCE - WHICH IS USUALLY VERY SMALL.
SO THE POWER FACTOR IS 0 (OR VERY CLOSE TO IT).
SO IT IS INDEED CORRECT TO SAY A GENERATOR HAS POWER FACTOR.
T
Hi @TH,
Few questions.
#1
Regarding the R-Core manufacturer I showed the other day, they make a model R-80 that has core diameter of 0.9449" and a length (end to end) of 4.764".
Would the end to end distance be close to being able to position itself between a 1st and 2nd magnet, since the 3rd magnet would be the same polarity and the 4th magnet I guess would definitely be out of reach.
#2
Regarding the bifilar winding, do you have an idea on wire AWG of both and how many turns.
#3
Is your winding method wind to left then continue wind to right, or wind to left, back to right and wind to left again. Hmmmm. I wonder if you will understand.
#4
Regarding your rotor, what diameter are you using and how many magnets.
I am about to send my e-mail to these guys to see if they can make such a coil, cost, etc.
wattsup
Quote from: wattsup on July 06, 2009, 07:53:45 PM
Hi @TH,
Few questions.
#1
Regarding the R-Core manufacturer I showed the other day, they make a model R-80 that has core diameter of 0.9449" and a length (end to end) of 4.764".
Would the end to end distance be close to being able to position itself between a 1st and 2nd magnet, since the 3rd magnet would be the same polarity and the 4th magnet I guess would definitely be out of reach.
YOU CAN MAKE YOUR ROTOR NN SS NN SS IN THAT CASE.
ARE YOU MAKING AN I_RON ROTOR (SAME DIMENSIONS)?
I WILL MEASURE MINE TUESDAY.
Quote
#2
Regarding the bifilar winding, do you have an idea on wire AWG of both and how many turns.
I AM USING 22 GAUGE @ 60 OHMS - STOPPED COUNTING TURNS 5 YEARS AGO.
Quote#3
Is your winding method wind to left then continue wind to right, or wind to left, back to right and ind to left again. Hmmmm. I wonder if you will understand.
CAN YOU SPELL M-U-L-L-E-R C-O-I-L? :-X
I WIND LEFT TO RIGHT WITH MY RIGHT HAND - THEN RIGHT TO LEFT WITH MY LEFT HAND - NOT. :P
JUST NORMAL WINDING NOTHING FANCY. ;)
Quote#4
Regarding your rotor, what diameter are you using and how many magnets.
I am about to send my e-mail to these guys to see if they can make such a coil, cost, etc.
wattsup
BEND OVER AND KISS I_RON'S ARSE EVER SO SOFTLY AND ASK HIM TO MAKE YOU A ROTOR - HE IS A CRUSTY OLD PRICK BASTARD - BUT YOU WON'T FIND A BETTER MACHINIST ON EITHER SIDE OF THE ROCKIES. (AND DON'T MAKE HIM MAD - HE WILL HIT YOU SO HARD YOUR WHOLE FAMILY WILL DIE). :'(
IF THAT DOESN'T WORK WE CAN ASK THE PEOPLE IN CA TO HELP YOU OUT.
ALSO SEND A PM TO MINDE AND ENQUIRE ABOUT MINDE'S RECENT COIL SUCCESS.
T
Guys Nuri just told me Thane has converted reactive power have not had a look yet, Thane if you have converted reactive power then please let me know where your at ill try to find some one who can give you an Roto Verter to pay with , it produces EXCESS reactive power, or try a solid state version.
all here Bro well done
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/RV.pdf
Ash
Thanks Mr T for the info. So in a reasonable large iron core saturation is of no concern at those frequencies.
Another minor question,
Using 24 awg wire in long coils (full magnetic flux circuit). What's your best energy output while having a minor accelaration effect?
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: baroutologos on July 07, 2009, 04:40:38 AM
Thanks Mr T for the info. So in a reasonable large iron core saturation is of no concern at those frequencies.
HEATING OF THE CORE IS ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS WE LOOKED INTO AND THERE IS VIRTUALLY NONE.
QuoteAnother minor question, Using 24 awg wire in long coils (full magnetic flux circuit). What's your best energy output while having a minor accelaration effect?
Regards,
Baroutologos
ABOUT 30 WATTS.
T
Dear Thane,
So we need a Reactive power source in either solidstate form or motor sytle...
Transverter and Rotoverter claimed to be excessive Reactive power generators, so do you think we should couple em with BTT (Bifilar Thane Transformer)?
We are urge you to teach us BTT as public. We need your support and understanding.
Please send us your thoughts and help!
NT, TR
Quote from: CRANKYpants on July 06, 2009, 09:48:34 PM
snip
BEND OVER AND KISS I_RON'S ARSE EVER SO SOFTLY AND ASK HIM TO MAKE YOU A ROTOR - HE IS A CRUSTY OLD PRICK BASTARD - BUT YOU WON'T FIND A BETTER MACHINIST ON EITHER SIDE OF THE ROCKIES. (AND DON'T MAKE HIM MAD - HE WILL HIT YOU SO HARD YOUR WHOLE FAMILY WILL DIE).
snip
T
More thane descriptive bullshit. I_ron is an easy going sort of guy with a penchant for the truth. He does believe in calling a spade a spade. Honest fellow experimenters will have no problem with that.
Far from being the best machinist he is a bit of a ha cker and has to make things two or three times to get one right, but he is a live and let live guy who has never deliberately hurt anyone so that part is extremely gross.
Nor_I
Quote from: CRANKYpants on July 07, 2009, 07:11:44 AM
HEATING OF THE CORE IS ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS WE LOOKED INTO AND THERE IS VIRTUALLY NONE.
ABOUT 30 WATTS.
T
Energy is not power, power is not energy, tra la.
How did you measure core heating? What did you compare?
(Never mind, rhetorical questions. Carry on...)
@ All
Hi
what magnet pattern on rotor is best to achieve acceleration; which one is not recommended
i could not find this exact info in previous posts
NNNNNNNN
NSNSNSNS
NNSSNNSS
NNNSSSNNN
Thanx
Quote from: TinselKoala on July 07, 2009, 11:26:53 AM
Energy is not power, power is not energy, tra la.
How did you measure core heating? What did you compare?
(Never mind, rhetorical questions. Carry on...)
TK,
As far as I know I am the only one to do this test and publish results.
Near the beginning of this list, post #22 p3 (first test)... laminations, orientation of the laminations and compared to Somaloy.
Somaloy AC losses:
W/kg W/kg W/kg
0,5 T 1 T 1,5 T
50 Hz 2 7 14
500 Hz 35 80 170
1000 Hz 63 180 330
(manufacturer's spec's)
Ron
Quote from: aladinlamp on July 07, 2009, 01:18:32 PM
@ All
Hi
what magnet pattern on rotor is best to achieve acceleration; which one is not recommended
i could not find this exact info in previous posts
NNNNNNNN
NSNSNSNS
NNSSNNSS
NNNSSSNNN
Thanx
IT DEPENDS ON YOUR CORE SIZE AND IF YOU WANT AN OPEN CIRCUIT OR A CLOSED ONE - FOR A CLOSED ONE YOU NEED TO LINE ONE NORTH POLE ON ONE SIDE WITH A SOUTH ON THE OTHER.
BUT GENERALLY NSNSNS WORKS BEST.
T
Quote from: samedsoft on July 07, 2009, 08:36:39 AM
Dear Thane,
So we need a Reactive power source in either solidstate form or motor sytle...
Transverter and Rotoverter claimed to be excessive Reactive power generators, so do you think we should couple em with BTT (Bifilar Thane Transformer)?
We are urge you to teach us BTT as public. We need your support and understanding.
Please send us your thoughts and help!
NT, TR
Nuri/Thane /ALL
If your trafo can convert reactive power we have an off the shelf free energy device TODAY with the RV. Wanna change history? If your going to not license this method out, at least add it to your RV and try it :), you have the answer there if Nuri has explained this correctly. Not sure if he has yet. I can get an RV to you.
Ashtweth
Quote from: ashtweth_nihilisti on July 07, 2009, 08:15:43 PM
Nuri/Thane /ALL
If your trafo can convert reactive power we have an off the shelf free energy device TODAY with the RV. Wanna change history? If your going to not license this method out, at least add it to your RV and try it :), you have the answer there if Nuri has explained this correctly. Not sure if he has yet. I can get an RV to you.
Ashtweth
NO RV REQUIRED...
WORST CASE...TEST TODAYUSING 60 HZ FROM THE GRID - FROM "NO LOAD" TO "ON LOAD" THE POWER FACTOR CHANGES FROM 87 DEGREES / Pf 0.05 TO ABOUT 0.075 - 0.1.
THE PRIMARY CURRENT INCREASES BY ONLY 3%.
BEST CASE...NO CHANGE IN EITHER Pf OR CURRENT WHEN PLACED ON LOAD AND THE Pf STAYS AT ABOUT 0,05.
I NEED TO DO A FEW MORE TESTS AND GET GOTOLUC IN TO CONFIRM THINGS.
T
Deal All,
Does anyone have idea on how to wind BTT (Bifilar Thane Transformer) ?
Thane, Could you please post a video on your reactive to active power conversion tests?
There are solid state excessive rective power generators from Ash, he can pump us lot info in that..
Looking forward for good news.
NT,TR
Quote from: samedsoft on July 08, 2009, 03:48:55 PM
Deal All,
Does anyone have idea on how to wind BTT (Bifilar Thane Transformer) ?
Thane, Could you please post a video on your reactive to active power conversion tests?
Looking forward for good news.
NT,TR
BI-FILAR NOT REQUIRED...
VIDEO ALREADY DONE... BUT IT IS REACTIVE TO REAL.
T
NEW PROTOTYPE w/ PERFORMANCE DATA...
Primary Input Voltage = 57.7 volts
Primary Input Current = 0.026 amps
Power Factor = 83.3 degrees / 0.116
Primary Input Power = 174 mW
Secondary Output Voltage = 3.0 volts
Secondary Load = 27 ohms
Secondary Output Power = 333 mW
COMPREHENSIVE POWER POINT PRESENTATION HERE:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=BXAWHUPU
T
ps
HAPPY BIRTHDAY MR. TESLA! :D
.
@Thane
HI
1.what is the resistance and wire size of primary and secondary windings, or some ratio or does not matter?
Thanx
Quote from: aladinlamp on July 11, 2009, 03:38:56 AM
@Thane
HI
1.what is the resistance and wire size of primary and secondary windings, or some ratio or does not matter?
Thanx
THE PRIMARY WIRE GAUGE IS 30 AND THE RESISTANCE IS 150 OHMS.
THE PRIMARY CORE IS JUST "SITTING" ON THE SECONDARY CORE - HELD THERE BY GRAVITY - IT OUGHT TO BE AS TIGHTLY SECURED AS POSSIBLE - THIS WAY THE INPUT CURRENT WILL BE LOWER AND THE OUTPUT VOLTAGE HIGHER -
AND THE EFFICIENCY EVEN HIGHER. ALSO TO BE CONSERVATIVE I CALCULATED THE Pf AT 83.3 DEGREES BUT I THINK IT COULD BE MORE LIKE 85 DEGEES OR MORE?
EVEN WITH A PLUS OR MINUS 25% MARGIN OF ERROR IT IS STILL OU AND WILL IMPROVE FROM HERE.
T
Dear THANE,
YOU ARE REAL MAN! THANKS FOR ALL !!!!
THIS IS HISTORICAL ACCOMPLISHMENT FOR BTT (Bifilar Thane Transformer)
Thane, what form of waveform do you have on secondaries when you pulse primary with square pulse?
Also have you tried to use DC source and pulse it at 60 Hz and drive a lamp?
So bipolar pulsed DC (As in H-bridge) may drive transformer ha?
Then the voltage on DC battery will go down very very slowly... You can also start with a cap and apply controlled feedback to source...
Is primary also bifilar wound?
AGAIN YOU ARE MAN OF THIS WORLD! REAL REAL HERO!
GOD BLESS YOU AND FAMILY!
Say hi to your wife.
NT,TR!
Thane,
Back to perpetia folks. To get acceleration you must use a MINIMUM of two I core coils sharing mutual flux path (ring/laminates) OR a single E coil?
OR you can achieve acceleration with a SINGLE single wire wound I core HV coil?
Please advice
Regards Minde
Quote from: minde4000 on July 11, 2009, 03:37:43 PM
Thane,
OR you can achieve acceleration with a SINGLE single wire wound I core HV coil?
Please advice
Regards Minde
SINGLE WIRE WOUND HV COIL WORKS - BUT A CLOSED MAGNETIC CIRCUIT (I.E. TWO COILS OR A C CORE) GIVES BETTER ALL ROUND RESULTS.
IF YOU DON'T START POSTING YOUR BEAUTIFUL WORK (PICS) AND INSPIRING OTHERS HERE I AM CHANGING YOUR NAME TO "MindeMiser"! ;)
T
TODAY I GLUED DOWN A NEW PRIMARY AND AS EXPECTED THE CURRENT DROPS - POWER FACTOR IS MORE LIKE 0.05 BUT THEN THINGS JUST START GETTING CRAZY... EACH ONE OF THOSE LITTLE MARKERS ON THE X AXIS = 90/13.5 = 6.66 DEGREES SO THE POWER FACTOR IS COS(90 - 6.66) PARALLAX ERROR ADJUSTED
T
July 11th, 2009 Data
Primary Input Voltage = 58.8 volts
Primary Input Current = 0.017 amps
Power Factor = 83.3 degrees / 0.116
Primary Input Power = 115 mW
Secondary Output Voltage = 3.1 volts
Secondary Load = 27 ohms
Secondary Output Power = 356 mW
Efficiency = 310%
Quote from: CRANKYpants on July 11, 2009, 06:31:12 PM
TODAY I GLUED DOWN A NEW PRIMARY AND AS EXPECTED THE CURRENT DROPS - POWER FACTOR IS MORE LIKE 0.05 BUT THEN THINGS JUST START GETTING CRAZY... EACH ONE OF THOSE LITTLE MARKERS ON THE X AXIS = 90/13.5 = 6.66 DEGREES SO THE POWER FACTOR IS COS(90 - 6.66) PARALLAX ERROR ADJUSTED
T
July 11th, 2009 Data
Primary Input Voltage = 58.8 volts
Primary Input Current = 0.017 amps
Power Factor = 83.3 degrees / 0.116
Primary Input Power = 115 mW
Secondary Output Voltage = 3.1 volts
Secondary Load = 27 ohms
Secondary Output Power = 356 mW
Efficiency = 310%
Outstanding T,
Great work, on both the transformer and your presentation, you seem to be surpassing the big T.
But since you just created one of the top OU devices in current history, can you disclose more detail before it possibly disappears or just to make sure it doesn't disappear.
Is it an optical delusion or is the right secondary larger than the left?
Also, can you give out the permeability of the secondary and primary core and what is the wire gauge and ohms of each of the secondaries?
Thanks, Larry
PS: Thanks for the latest low angle shot of the transformer. It really shows why the reluctance would be much less even if it had the same permeability.
Quote from: LarryC on July 11, 2009, 07:41:29 PM
Is it an optical delusion or is the right secondary larger than the left?
IT IS LARGER - BUT I WILL BE ADDING MORE TURNS TO THE LEFT NEXT. I WILL KEEP ADDING TURNS UNTIL THINGS PEAK/
QuoteAlso, can you give out the permeability of the secondary and primary core and what is the wire gauge and ohms of each of the secondaries?
I WILL HAVE TO CONTACT TOROID TECH AND GET THAT FROM THEM SINCE THEY SUPPLIED THE SQUARE TOROID (ACTUALLY IT CAME FROM ANOTHER MANUFACTURED BUT I DON'T KNOW WHO).
I THINK THE WIRE GAUGE IS ABOUT 22 OR 24 GAUGE AROUND THERE.
QuoteThanks, Larry
PS: Thanks for the latest low angle shot of the transformer. It really shows why the reluctance would be much less even if it had the same permeability.
YES THE TOTAL AREA OF THE SECONDARY IS PERHAPS 10 TIMES THAT OF THE PRIMARY. FUTURE BI-TOROIDS WILL HAVE EVEN LARGER SECONDARY CORE MASS.
T
I HAVE UPLOADED A REVISED POWER POINT PRESENTATION WITH A REVISED POWER FACTOR OF 0.087 OR 85 DEGREES WHICH GIVES THE BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER AN EFFICIENCY 0F 409%.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7U93APJO
CHEERS
T
Here is my perpetia setup. I did some testing today at various voltages and rpm and made up a data sheet. I used 10ohm 10W and 100ohm 15W resistors to measure voltage. Tested is AWG 30 150ohm coil with steel laminate core. Gap between rotor magnets and coil is some 5mm. I do get acceleration effect but only marginal in some 8-30rpm range with dead short and less with higher ohm load. Self acceleration seem to depend upon ohm value of load. The higher ohm of the load the higher the rpm has to be to achieve drop of power and acceleration in prime mover. This particular coil/rotor begin to show acceleration only ~3000rpm and anything below that start to slow the system down instead.
In the picturethere is another steel laminate core E coil with bifilar AWG 27 wind measuring 92 ohms. Coil is ready to be tested but I didnt build my brackets yets so few more days for that. I think it is important to notice that if this bifilar coil is removed from E core it measure as an INDUCTOR at 100hz 120hz and 1khz. However if I slide it back onto E core at 100hz and 120hz is measures as inductor but at 1khz it measures as ~9nf capacitor. Funny. So thats the news so far. Need larger coils and at least 2 coils. I also would like to make a note that my ryobi is 8" 120ac 3amp rated and rotor is much heavier than anything T has so effects will not be as instant and obvious as with lighter rotor and smaller ryobi but this should change once I will get more and bigger coils.
I have one question: It is strange to observe that load voltage produced across resistor is the same at almost any rpm (even only 100). I would like to know why that is the case. Core saturation or awg limits power troughtput?
This thing is loud as @#$%^ I hope my neighbuors would not complain about that...
Btw T, I kind of also love that pinging sound when flux hits the rotor once coil engaged ;D
If I forgot something to mention here I will add on on later posts.
Special thanks to Thane for contacts resulting in a great boost to my project.
Regards Minde
Hi Minde!
Great job man. good start also. keep the good work.! :)
By the way, that's an issue with this generator. I will not take an oath, but it seems to me that the voltage output does not increase in proportion to the RPM. But, by increasing rpm helps at maintaining accelaration with increasing ohm resistance at output.
Well done, again!
EDIT: I was pondering on the capacitor coil you created and measured. WHY does it needs the iron core to exhibit the capacitative effects???? Normaly one should be expecting JUST the opposite (since iron enhances inductunce)
regards,
Baroutologos
ps: the cap coil is it proffesionally wound??
ps2: Soon, my demo time will come!
Quote from: minde4000 on July 12, 2009, 11:16:08 PM
Special thanks to Thane for contacts resulting in a great boost to my project.
Regards Minde
QUICK NOTE MINDE,
IF YOU TEMPORARILY ADD THAT E CORE (OR SOME OTHER BACK IRON) TO THE BACK OF YOUR COIL YOU WILL GET BETTER RESULTS. A SMALL "OPEN MAGNETIC CIRCUIT" COIL LIKE THAT CANNOT PULL MUCH PM FLUX INTO IT TO BE VERY EFFECTIVE.
THE LOAD RESISTANCE DETERMINES THE COIL CURRENT AND HENCE MAGNITUDE OF DELAYED COIL INDUCED MAGNETIC FIELD. I.E. 1 MEG OHM = OPEN CIRCUIT (NO LOAD & NO CURRENT) AND 1 OHM =
SHORT CIRCUIT (MAX LOAD & MAX COIL CURRENT).
THANKS FOR SHARING! ;)
AND GREAT WORK!
T
Quote from: baroutologos on July 13, 2009, 04:50:37 AM
EDIT: I was pondering on the capacitor coil you created and measured. WHY does it needs the iron core to exhibit the capacitative effects???? Normaly one should be expecting JUST the opposite (since iron enhances inductunce)
ps: the cap coil is it proffesionally wound??
Well my E core inner coil is pretty well wound. I used coil winding machine to help me wind it (just a bobbin holder and approx wire guide). It took me 4 days to wind it on and off but I tried to do not burn myself and speed things up but instead I used to just leave it and come back later with "fresh mood" to continue :) Last 2 layers show some gaps other than that is was really tight and pretty :)
It becomes very capacitive only when it is placed back on E core and frequency below and above 1khz. I wonder if E core shape has anything to do with capacistance. I agree once you add steel core it should become even more inductive but this is not the case appearently. I wonder because it is bifilar or because of E core? I dont have any other cores to try.
Baroutologos you are right on with your observations. I get the same voltage limit and acceleration treshhold dependency upon ohm load.
Post your numbers once you got something bart.
EDIT from my last post: gap between rotor magnets and coil is some 3-4mm not 5.
Regards Minde
Quote from: CRANKYpants on July 13, 2009, 07:31:40 AM
IF YOU TEMPORARILY ADD THAT E CORE (OR SOME OTHER BACK IRON) TO THE BACK OF YOUR COIL YOU WILL GET BETTER RESULTS.
Thanks for advice. I still have some I core laminates so I will add another leg and make "L" out of it.
Minde
@minde4000
Nice build. Do you have an autocad drawing of your wheel?
Also, I wonder if you just put a diode on the coil one way, then try the other way. Something like what @gotoluc is doing with his Effects thread. What would be the result?
I am thinking that since your magnets have a good distance apart, that you will get into a good near zero condition between each pair of magnets at the core, so this will cause some flyback, but maybe by using a diode, the flyback will be more directinoal. You would have to try it with diode in each direction to see which one will provide the best potential acelleration on the rotor.
@TH
I am waiting for a response for those C cores and will be making the wheel soon so any more info from current builders would be greatly appreciated in terms of testing stuff that could determine any last minute changes.
That transformer you showed is really nice with neat laminations. What a job to make.
We know very little about laminates. We consider them simply as cores but what are they really. Why can they impart coupling and what is their limitations when considering laminate length, shape, etc.
Question? (See drawing below.)
If I put one end of a 1 foot long 1 inch thick laminated core next to the mag rotor, and if the coil is only 4" long over the core, what will the output be when the coil is placed right next to the magwheel (A) and then when the same coil is slid further and further away on the 12" core that is always at the same position (B and C). I am not asking for specific numbers. Just if you think the output will be lower and lower as the coil slides further away from the mag rotor while keeping the core at the same position.
@All,
Following T note I have attached another leg to my I core making it "L" and run same tests again. Acceleration "effects" are more significant but with somewhat power output reduction. Also, a "critical" rpm now dropped to 2600+ (vs ~3000). Attached there is a new tab with both "I" core and "L" core. Open coil circuit produces some 1800ac at full speed and because of my mistake it got a chance to hit one of my multimeters and smoked it up ;D Need to get a bulb setup. I am sure it is "cool" to "see" power being produced together with acceleration and amp reduction at prime mover.
@wattsup
Interesting diode idea. I will try it out eventually. Here is autocad file you asked about. File is saved in 2004 version.
Regards Minde
Quote from: wattsup on July 13, 2009, 11:41:23 AM
Question? (See drawing below.)
If I put one end of a 1 foot long 1 inch thick laminated core next to the mag rotor, and if the coil is only 4" long over the core, what will the output be when the coil is placed right next to the magwheel (A) and then when the same coil is slid further and further away on the 12" core that is always at the same position (B and C). I am not asking for specific numbers. Just if you think the output will be lower and lower as the coil slides further away from the mag rotor while keeping the core at the same position.
THE CLOSER THE COIL IS TO THE MAGNET THE BETTER BECAUSE THE CORE RELUCTANCE LIMITS HOW FAR THE PM FLUX WILL TRAVEN DOWN THE CORE.
HOWEVER THE LONGER YOUR CORE LEG THE LESS RELUCTANCE YOU WILL HAVE IN YOUR AIR GAP SO THE LONG CORE WILL PULL MORE PM FLUX IN.
BEST CASE CLOSE COIL INFINITELY LONG CORE.
T
The best I was able to achieve today with my current setup was 15.98W without any acceleration and without no measurable load increase to the mover (I had to run ryobi at 120ac to have max rpm in order to neutralize the current load configuration). Load was 3 12V bulbs connected in series thru step down transformer. Thru all 3 bulbs in series I had 14.4ac (approx 3.8ac each) and according to ac clamp meter 1.11 amps.
I wonder if my amp meter can measure ac current right at such a frequencies? I will try to attach a toroid ring that I have to this I core and remeasure the power.
Minde
Quote from: Asymatrix on July 13, 2009, 11:01:20 PM
What exactly is the point of all this? I see the new video claming a 500% (?) efficient transformer, billed as OU. So, where is the closed loop system? Is this about a more efficient motor, using voltage coils, or is it about OU?
OH YOU RASCAL!
YOU KNOW WHAT IT'S REALLY ABOUT - YOU BIG SILLY!
IT'S ABOUT YOUR OWN CLOSED LOOP SYSTEM...
YOUR CLOSED (LOOP) MIND. :D
AND INFINITELY RECIRCULATING BAD ATTITUDE.
T
Quote from: minde4000 on July 13, 2009, 11:02:55 PM
The best I was able to achieve today with my current setup was 15.98W without any acceleration and without no measurable load increase to the mover (I had to run ryobi at 120ac to have max rpm in order to neutralize the current load configuration). Load was 3 12V bulbs connected in series thru step down transformer. Thru all 3 bulbs in series I had 14.4ac (approx 3.8ac each) and according to ac clamp meter 1.11 amps.
Minde
NOW THAT YOU HAVE ESTABLISHED SOME EXPERIENCE WITH THE ACCELERATING HV COILS IT IS SOON TIME TO RE-WIND SOME NEW COILS w/ 22 GAUGE WIRE - SERIES BI-FILAR IF YOU WANT TO GET BETTER OUTPUT POWER.
WHAT IS THE RESISTANCE OF YOUR BULBS?
THEY SHOULD BE AROUND 2 OHMS OR SO...
T
@minde4000
Thanks for the great data. It says a lot about what is going on and my first question would be can you provide specs on your magnets?
Thanes magnets have 70 lbs pull per magnet. That is very strong and maybe explains why Thane can turn his rotor while only consuming 250 watts or 120v x 2 amps.
A stronger magnet will impart more to the coil and then receive a stronger "kickback" (hey kickbacks are illegal - lol) from the coil to promote the acceleration.
Also thanks for the autocad drawing of your wheel. It will be helpful when making mine.
@TH
I tried that web site for magnets but could not see anything with 70 lbs pull.
Oh, I will be using my rotoverter AC three phase 5 hp 460vac motor and run it at 120vac with my capacitor bank. I can run it no load for around 60 watts. I also plan to have the wheel stabilized on two bearings so the motor will be turning it via a rubber padded coupling and be less prone to wobbling given that large disk is sitting only on the motor shaft bearings.
Have you ever considered making a miniature version of the Perepiteia. Maybe more people would hop on if the size was more within reach of everyday builders. Even if the rotor was only 6 inches diameter, it should still be able to make the effect under the right smaller conditions.
@Wattup
How, a whole torquy 5HP motor freewheeling on 60 watts?
OU is near then if you follow Mr T's guidelines. :p
Regards,
baroutologos
ps: god damned unbalanced 15pounds flywheel, almost destroyed my rotor. By the way my rotor with my new PMDC motor freewheels at some 3amps on 17 volts --> 2000 rpm! (UPDATE)
I still waiting my another 6x2 set of magnets from Germany, tachometer from Sangai and capacitors from USA! lol all around globe :)
Quote from: wattsup on July 14, 2009, 09:42:30 AM
I tried that web site for magnets but could not see anything with 70 lbs pull.
Try something like this:
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DX0X0
And if you want something a bit stronger:
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DX0X0-N52
@wattsup
My magnets are 1"x1" N42s. They have 100lb pull each. I was going to go for N50s but there was a note by T that "it might not work because of too strong magnets" and he mentioned he had like 60lb pull or now he said 70lb so I didnt wanna "overdose".
N42s - 100% pull - X $
N50s - 110% pull - 2X $
@T
I have all kind of bulbs and half of them burned out already ;) Looks like I have found that the most I will get out of this coil is 15 Watt without power increase to prime mover. Very interesting voltage changes by varying different ohm bulbs. You say build new coil? I have a lot of awg 27 but only 1 spool of awg 22. Need to get a few square empty bobbins first then go thru very painfull process of fine wire bifilar coil winding.
As I can recall you said you only use bifilars now right? Whats your bifilar lowest awg and coil ohm values (still accelerating)?
What exectly different did you observe between single wire and bifilars?
Sorry I ask questions I should be experimenting myself but my playground is limited because of limited finances nowadays..
I will get the right bulbs for my coil capabilities and maybe roll a video some day.
BTW: where is mr Ron? He should have something by now..
Cheers Minde
Quote from: minde4000 on July 14, 2009, 03:45:15 PM
@wattsup
As I can recall you said you only use bifilars now right? Whats your bifilar lowest awg and coil ohm values (still accelerating)?
What exectly different did you observe between single wire and bifilars?
Cheers Minde
2 COILS BIFILAR SERIES WOUND - SERIES CONNECTED @ 30 OHMS @ 20 GAUGE WIRE 90 LB-ER ROTOR MAGNETS.
NON BIFILARS AS ABOVE WORK GREAT IF YOU WANT SERIOUS BRAKING OF THE ROTOR UNDER LOAD.
T
LATEST TRANSFORMER DATA
T
TEST # 3 July 13th, 2009
Primary Input Voltage = 104.7 volts
Primary Input Current = 0.001 amps
Power Factor = 70 degrees / 0.34
Primary Input Power = 36 mW
Secondary Output Voltage = 3.1 volts
Secondary Load = 27 ohms
Secondary Output Power = 356 mW
Efficiency = 989%
So.... I spent few hours and built sturdy bracket for my E coil. Everything went smooth... Initial test run was flawless and only some two thirds of noise over I coil. It reved up to 1200rpm and then kind of stalled at with prime mover being at full power so I shorted out my E coil for the first time to help it out. System reacted swiftly by accelerating easily to full speed. Thats when I noticed that coil burned out somewhere inside according to meter.. somewhere at first layers :-[
Fak man. I wonder if it is suitable to rewind another bifilar one with awg 27? You said 30ohms total per bifilar coil right?
Will have to wind a new one.
Regards Minde
Quote from: Asymatrix on July 14, 2009, 10:31:15 PM
Surely a man with a 1000% efficiency transformer would immediately realize that he has OU, close the loop, and become a trillionaire.
Wouldn't he?
'waits for post deletion'
How dumb are you?
Dear Asy,
Please remind that this system (BTT) is not complete enough to be looped.
BTT converts pure reactive power to pure active power. You need another device like Rotoverter or Transverter to generate excessive reactive power from active power.
Ash has already given information on this issue.
I admire Thane's background and his consistency.
Please try to understand the basics of BTT and then put forward your idea.
Love & Brothership
NT,TR
THE WAY TO DEMONSTRATE OU
IS A LOOPED SELF RUN APPLICATION
RUN SHIT OFF IT, NO METERS, NOT NOTHING BUT REAL LIFE MECHANICAL WORK
license it, don't patent it.
BECOME A WORLD FIRST TO SURPASS EVEN TESLA
OR GO ON A WILD RIDE. SIMPLE ;)
feel the vice
Ask Stiffler or .99 to replicate it and show the readings or cranky BUTT
ill replicate this if it works, if it doesn't, watch out. I think it will,
RV test commence this week.
Thane if you want us to know something we don't email us.
This will help creditability, Panacea does NOT screw' around, check you tube,.
ASHTWETH
@ Mr T
Quote2 COILS BIFILAR SERIES WOUND - SERIES CONNECTED. NON BIFILARS AS ABOVE WORK GREAT IF YOU WANT SERIOUS BRAKING OF THE ROTOR UNDER LOAD.
again you meant Parallel wound-series connected i suppose.. :)
Quote@ 30 OHMS @ 20 GAUGE WIRE 90 LB-ER ROTOR MAGNETS.
question! How much weight your new coils???
question2: So mr Heins, bifilars in that way have better load handling characteristics huh? :) Or put better, They can output MOre for same input mechanical energy ?(This is a crucial matter)
@Minde,
Yes, unfortunately, biffilar coils cannot tolarate too high voltage (as 1800 of your previous one!!) since each adjacent pair of wires has the maximum voltage difference.
To be safe you must operate coil in 200-400 volts range. Again, this should be according insulation wire coating specs.
..........
Anyway, sad drawbacks are. Make a break, take a hike, cast a curse and continue man!
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: baroutologos on July 15, 2009, 01:50:29 AM
@ Mr T again you meant Parallel wound-series connected i suppose.. :)
question! How much weight your new coils???
JUST CHECKING TO SEE IF YOU ARE ON TOP OF THINGS THERE BART? ;)
YES - PARALLEL WOUND-SERIES CONNECTED!(I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT PART OF MY BRAIN I GUESS?)
WEIGHT = 1/2 - 1 LB
Quotequestion2: So mr Heins, bifilars in that way have better load handling characteristics huh? :) Or put better, They can output MOre for same input mechanical energy ?(This is a crucial matter)
I SEEMS THEY CAN PRODUCE THE GREATEST ROTOR ACCELERATION w/ THE MOST OUTPUT POWER.
YOU NEED TO GET THE WIRE GAUGE LOWER IF YOU WANT TO GET POWER.
"SO FIRST YOU GET THE POWER"
"THEN YOU GET THE MONEY"
"THEN YOU GET THE WOMEN"-Scarface
T
Quote from: ashtweth_nihilisti on July 15, 2009, 01:36:56 AMi
I think it will,
ASHTWETH
WHAT MAKES YOU THINK IT WILL?
(JUST CURIOUS)
T
Why only 1-2 libs? Its for 24 awg i suppose.
An 30 ohms 20 awg coil (0,8mm diam) should weight some 4 kilograms or 10 pounds.
My last 24, 0.5mm coil at 55 ohms weighted some 2+ pounds (around a kilogram+).
I had another 22 awg coil of 30 ohms, for my Bedini energizer and weighted some 2.5 kilos, not to mentioned it was like a keg!
I can only imagine an 18 awg at those resistances!
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: baroutologos on July 15, 2009, 08:10:53 AM
Why only 1-2 libs? Its for 24 awg i suppose.
An 30 ohms 20 awg coil (0,8mm diam) should weight some 4 kilograms or 10 pounds.
Baroutologos
@B,
If I read Thane's post correctly, and I think I did, and that part of his brain is working properly, he wrote, "half a pound to a pound" (1/2 - 1), or 0.5 to 1.0 to be more precise!
-Mark
CONVENTIONAL EI TRANSFORMER
TEST DATA # 4 July 15th, 2009
Primary Input Voltage = 2.71 volts
Primary Input Current = 0.200 amps
Power Factor = 18 degrees / 0.95
Primary Input Power = 516 mW
Secondary Output Voltage = 3.2 volts
Secondary Load = 27 ohms
Secondary Output Power = 379 mW
Efficiency = 73.5%
T
Hello Thane,
I might go wrong here but : the community is expecting an answer to LarryC ´s question :
QuoteAlso, can you give out the permeability of the secondary and primary core and what is the wire gauge and ohms of each of the secondaries?
Thanks, Larry
I personally cannot believe that you do not have these data available or at least memorize what the quality/specification of these cores is.
Regards
Kator01
@TH
Seems to me that sending 2 point something volts into that big 110vac transformer will expectedly give you major bad efficiency. There is so much iron in there to lose that pulse so it is very normal.
So what was the point of that? Am I missing something. Please no reference to my gray matter. lol
@All
I remade my bifilar E inner coil with AWG 27 wire but this time I did less winds so it came up to 55 ohms. What a difference between that 150 AWG 30 I coire coil... This one was pushing 27 watts and accelerating rapidly when loaded (in some cases at 50 rpm jumps) ;D
This time I have taped everything on video because of my first one burned out without any saved data... I did short and 100 ohms 15W resistor load tests with (didnt burn out for short periods at 27 Watts but got so hot) my new coil. Few videos are made with some interesting results. Despite all the effort this coil burned out as well at the very end on one of the videos. It gets so hot for what ever the reason that it melted electric tape right thru.. I shound have left it loaded on rotor rundown..freq was too low current increased rapidly and it burned out I assume. Seems like I need AWG 24 wire for particular core I have.
Any ideas for such heat buildup?
I will post those videos on youtube if any of you wish. Let me know. There are no voice comments. I made them only for data record with all meters visible.
Regards Minde
Quote from: Kator01 on July 16, 2009, 09:15:23 AM
Hello Thane,
I might go wrong here but : the community is expecting an answer to LarryC ´s question :
I personally cannot believe that you do not have these data available or at least memorize what the quality/specification of these cores is.
Regards
Kator01
I DON'T BLAME YOU AT ALL - MY WIFE SAYS THE SAME THING EVERY YEAR WHEN I HAVE TO SNEAK INTO HER PURSE TO SEE HER DRIVER'S LISENCE SO I WILL KNOW WHEN HER BIRTHDAY IS.
T
FOR ZE COMMUNITY... SIEG HEIL!
T
Quote from: wattsup on July 16, 2009, 10:07:02 AM
@TH
Seems to me that sending 2 point something volts into that big 110vac transformer will expectedly give you major bad efficiency. There is so much iron in there to lose that pulse so it is very normal.
So what was the point of that? Am I missing something. Please no reference to my gray matter. lol
THE POINT IS TO PROVIDE A CONTROL VARIABLE - TO SHOW CONVENTIONAL POWER FACTOR ON LOAD, CONVENTIONAL CURRENT AND CONVENTIONAL EFFICIENCY - TO MAKE SURE THE CONVENTIONAL TRANSFORMER ISN'T OVER 100% EFFICIENT UNDER THE SAME TEST CONDITIONS (OUTPUT POWER) AS THE BI-TOROID.
IF THE DEMO VIEWER CAN ACCEPT THAT THE CONVENTIONAL TRANSFORMER IS < 100% EFFICIENT (WHO WOULDN'T) THEN (IN THEORY) IT OUGHT TO BE EASIER TO ACCEPT THE BI-TOROID EFFICIENCY BECAUSE ONLY 2 PRIMARY AND 2 SECONDARY WIRES ARE SWITCHED DURING THE DEMO - AND EVERYTHING ELSE STAYS THE SAME.
BTW - YOUR GRAY MATTER IS FINE ALTHOUGH THINNING A BIT ON TOP. ;)
T
Quote from: minde4000 on July 16, 2009, 07:52:49 PM
@All
Any ideas for such heat buildup?
Regards Minde
VIDEO PLEASE - I AM SENDING OVER SOME MORE HEAT TO HELP BUILD YOU UP!
HAVE FUN! 8)
T
Here is 2 out of 3. Third one is still uploading. Sorry these videos were not meant to be for youtube I just tought its better way to record data then paper and pen BUT unfortunately of loss of this coil at the end of last 3rd video thats all I have got to show you. I will try to enter more comments into videos tommorow where voltage adjustments are not visible.
P.S. dont blame me for safety please. No cash to spare at the moment for what I need and I just couldnt resist without doing anything.
@ALL:
Thanes device is as real as you see on his videos. I did not get 40W out of a single coil yet but please note that I need different awg wire to optimize power output for my current E core and rotor specs also add outter coil , try out I core with large bifilar coils and toroid backing but no cash for that either ;D
Third video will show perfomance while generating 27 Watts across resistor. Never had a chance to try out transformer. I noticed when step down transformer is in use power output is greater than a dead short to resistor.
Hats off to Thane Heins for all that I know
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA8vDgrMd9A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArpB9WHilyw
Minde
Third one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaJr_gMDLBg
Minde
@Minde
Well done! I almost envy your progress!!!
@Thane
Please, i would love YOU to give some explaination regarding coil wires & weights. Are we measurinng using the same system?
Your biffilar, 22awg wire coils @ (50 ohms?) should weight some 4 kgr whereas the biffilar 50 ohms @ 24 awg is more than a kilogram. Am i right?
Regards,
Baroutologos
Hi Thane,
thank you for this Spec. I suppose that this is the core for the Perepiteia, but my question was related to the two different type of cores of your Bi-Toroid-Transformer.
I really wonder how to produce these cores.
Regards
Kator01.
LoL,
I was googling the net for leasure so as to find why "perpetual machines could not ever work". The wikipedia has a beutiful :) article there.
At my suprise Mr T's Perepiteia is at No2 of impossibilities for OU machines!
Ok, we have to admit it folks! We are working on the "perpetual" thing! there is no point at denying it anymore...
The "world" has named people like mr T and us...as those fascinated by the impossible, as too many throughout ages.
Hmmm... I am fascinated, but i do not think its impossible.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: Kator01 on July 17, 2009, 07:43:07 AM
Hi Thane,
thank you for this Spec. I suppose that this is the core for the Perepiteia, but my question was related to the two different type of cores of your Bi-Toroid-Transformer.
I really wonder how to produce these cores.
Regards
Kator01.
SEND AN EMAIL TO SAVERIO AT TOROID TECH AND ASK HIM TO SEND YOU SOME - IT COMES FROM GERMANY OR SOMETHING - OUR YOU CAN WAIT A WEEK CAUSE I WILL BE MEETING THEM NEXT WEEK.
THIS SPEC IS FOR THE TRANSFORMER PRIMARY CORE AND THE CORES USED IN THE GENERATOR.
T
Quote from: minde4000 on July 17, 2009, 02:43:49 AM
Third one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaJr_gMDLBg
Minde
GREAT WORK!
UP HERE IN CANADA WE HAVE THESE THINGS CALLED TALBES - YOU MIGHT WANT TO GOOGLE IT AND SEE IF YOU CAN FIND ONE IN YOUR AREA. :D
CHEERS
T
Quote from: minde4000 on July 17, 2009, 12:38:29 AM
Hats off to Thane Heins for all that I know
and to you, Minde. Great, great experiments
(apart from the safety factor. Please Minde!!)
BTW
A stone is heavier than water.
Thus it will always sink when thrown into a pond.
Lenz's law describes the behavior of sinking stones accurately.
Now throw a flat stone at an angle and watch it bounce, slip, slide and jump over the water.
Lenz's law is just not applicable when the speed and angle of the approaching stone are above critical.
Kudos to all.
Quote from: oscar on July 17, 2009, 09:51:25 AM
and to you, Minde. Great, great experiments
(apart from the safety factor. Please Minde!!)
BTW
A stone is heavier than water.
Thus it will always sink when thrown into a pond.
Lenz's law describes the behavior of sinking stones accurately.
Now throw a flat stone at an angle and watch it bounce, slip, slide and jump over the water.
Lenz's law is just not applicable when the speed and angle of the approaching stone are above critical.
Kudos to all.
Dude, I loved that description! Theatrical words in play! Excelent said!
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: baroutologos on July 17, 2009, 02:53:17 AM
@Minde
Well done! I almost envy your progress!!!
@Thane
Please, i would love YOU to give some explaination regarding coil wires & weights. Are we measurinng using the same system?
Your biffilar, 22awg wire coils @ (50 ohms?) should weight some 4 kgr whereas the biffilar 50 ohms @ 24 awg is more than a kilogram. Am i right?
Regards,
Baroutologos
PLEASE!
I AM VERY SENSITIVE ABOUT MY WEIGHT! :P
@ MINDE
PLEASE MAKE SURE YOUR OUTER E COIL ACCELERATES ON ITS OWN - MAN, IT IS REALLY GOING TO KICK ASS WHEN YOU HAVE BOTH COILS HOOKED UP RIGHT! 8) AND THE INNER IS FEEDING THE OUTER AND VICE VERSA.
ALSO PLEASE SHARE YOUR RESULTS AND TECHNIQUES WITH THE GOOD PEOPLE IN CA WHO SENT YOU THE CORE MATERIAL.
FINALLY GO GET SOME LIGHT SWITCHES FROM HOME DEPOT BEFORE YOU ELECTROCUTE YOURSELF!
T
Can some of you brave soldiers perform a request experiment by adding a reed or opto switch to the setup.
Case 1:
Switch starts out closed. When a magnet hits TDC the switch opens and breaks the coil circuit. The switch closes again when the magnet has moved a certain distance away.
Case 2:
Switch starts out opened. When a magnet hits TDC the switch closes and shorts the coil circuit. The switch opens again when the magnet has moved a certain distance away.
This might show quite a few things.
1) no acceleration is observed
2) acceleration is observed in one of two cases but is weaker/stronger than regualr setup
3) acceleration is observed in both cases but is weaker/stronger than regular setup
I have tried this setup Broli. (in a very crude state)
One thing to notice is that it is very tricky to make it work that way.
Voltage curves in relation to magnets physical positioning are changing with regard of rotor's speed, so the reed at TDC may work only at specific speed (if at all).
In my experiments did not make a thing. Bear in mind the "magnetic distortion field effect". Wikipedia offers a good review of the issue.
By the way, reed's job is undertaken in Perepiteia setup by the high impedance since it "holds current" till right moment.
Anyway, further experimentation on that issue, is welcomed.
Regards,
Baroutologos
@minde4000
I just have to say this. You are totally doing this in a very irresponsible manner that actually comes close to mentally insane. I will not talk about the technical side, just your setup is very dangerous and you are actually very stupid to even consider doing tests in the way you have shown.
To have someone right beside that turning wheel is just retarded to the nth degree and I hope this much insistence will knock some god damned sense into you to get you act together and do this in a safe manner.
THERE IS NOTHING YOU HAVE TO DO DURING YOUR TESTS THAT CANNOT BE DONE AT A SAFE DISTANCE FROM THE TURNING WHEEL. @TH has shown you many times his setup. ALSO DOING THIS ON THE FLOOR WITH THAT BASE BOARD NOT SECURED TO ANYTHING IS NEXT TO SUICIDAL.
Get it in your head already. You glued some damn magnets on a plate that is turning at 3300 rpm. Can you even start to realize the level of danger there. If not, stop everything. You are not cut out to survive such research.
Sorry for being so blunt but although I like what I see, I shiver at the thought of the many many potential mishaps that you have just brushed against and for what?
wattsup
@wattsup
From now on I will just ignore you not because you wrong but because of the way you express yourself (I am not trying to disarm a bomb here chill). Watch your own safety I will watch mine. If you think that I do not understand safety hazard you are an idiot. I did hasitate to show those videos to public mainly because the system was setup and filmed in such non proffesional way.
Have money - build yourself safe lab and tables. I do what I can altho I would love to have a lexan cage.
Minde
I guess you live by the "I do what I love most even if it costs my head" saying. I agree on the safety issue but I also agree on the "this-shit-ass-community-hardly-produces-anything-so-anything-that-does-get-done-even-suicidal-is-welcome" thingy. Just make sure no kids are running around, we don't want them be hurt ot tramausized for life when a magnet shoots through your head ;D .
I do not agree with the language but i agree with the spirit. Take care minde! I am also a lightheaded when considering safety.
I have paid it twice with my previous (hobby) carreer at fireworks making. LOL
It's a cool idea also not to strain your wheel to the limit. 2000 or 2500 rpm is also just fine for experimenting. You will understand the safe limits of your device. Do not push it if you think it is pushed.
3000 rpm means nothing. Only it happened to be Ryobi's rpm range.
In the future, with finer rotors, we may be in possition to spin them some 6000 rpm quite safely, as an engine does.
For the time being, caution. (this goes to me also)
Regards,
Baroutologos
TEN OHM TEST DATA:
INPUT VOLTAGE: 120.9 V
INPUT CURRENT: 0.005 A
POWER FACTOR: 0.1 @ 84 DEGREES
INPUT POWER = 63 mW
LOAD VOLTAGE: 1.6 V
LOAD: 10 OHMS
LOAD POWER = 256 mW
Quote from: minde4000 on July 17, 2009, 05:49:32 PM
@wattsup
From now on I will just ignore you not because you wrong but because of the way you express yourself (I am not trying to disarm a bomb here chill). Watch your own safety I will watch mine. If you think that I do not understand safety hazard you are an idiot. I did hasitate to show those videos to public mainly because the system was setup and filmed in such non proffesional way.
Have money - build yourself safe lab and tables. I do what I can altho I would love to have a lexan cage.
Minde
Hi Minde,
Great testing, keep up the good work, but I was also concerned as I've seen the original Neo Claymore explosion results by Luc. Sorry, but I can't find the pictures in the archives, utter destruction, and if you live in a apartment other tenants would be in danger. So please consider using a form of my Neo catcher as shown below. 2X4 edges and plywood faces are pretty cheap. Make sure to secure it to the base with screws from the bottom.
Regards, Larry
PS: I liked your original spreadsheet approach.
Quote from: LarryC on July 17, 2009, 08:08:50 PM
Hi Minde,
Great testing, keep up the good work, but I was also concerned as I've seen the original Neo Claymore explosion results by Luc. Sorry, but I can't find the pictures in the archives, utter destruction, and if you live in a apartment other tenants would be in danger.
Regards, Larry
AND WE DIDN'T TELL YOU ALL ABOUT THE 6 MAGNET ROTOR 1.5 x .5 INCH MAGNETS THAT TOOK FLIGHT WHEN THE MOTOR CAME OFF THE TABLE AT 3000 RPM WITH 4 OF US IN THE ROOM.
T
As an ol' pyrrotechnics saying goes...
"they are old pyros, and they are bold pyros,
but they aren't too many old, bold pyros.."
Regards,
Baroutologos
* pyros = pyrotechnician
The Bi-Toroid Transformer is designed to convert Reactive Power to Real Power.
This is accomplished by introducing a secondary coil and alternate flux path route â€" keeping the primary coil isolated from the secondary induced BEMF magnetic fluxes
The extra energy required to produce a transformer that operates at over 100% efficiency comes from the fact that the two secondary coils self regulate their own flux required to maintain the voltage across the load and the primary coil remains unaffected by secondary load.
IF ANYONE WANTS THE COMPLETE REPORT - SEND ME A REQUEST @ thane_heins@yahoo.ca
T
IN AN EFFORT TO REDUCE METER ERROR IN THE BI-TOROID DATA...
TEST DATA #6 July 16th, 2009
Load Voltage = 3 volts
Load Resistance = 27.5 ohms
Calculated Load Current = 0.109 amps
Metered Load Current = 0.111 amps
Meter Error = 1.8%
T
I had some minor experiments with my top quality core and magnetic circuits.
I had a question regarding the picture below. I found out (ferrite magnets were employed for the experiment) that totally closing the magnetic flux, i got some x3 or x4 more flux (i measured strenth of part as a tedency to attach each other) in closed circuit. case B
So, all of you who have steel rotors, you already have the one part of magnetic circuit closed.
:(
My alluminum rotor, leaves in open air magnet's one surface, so closing the loop on the other side, will give not even close the flux you people get..
pffffffffff.....
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: baroutologos on July 18, 2009, 04:31:08 PM
I had some minor experiments with my top quality core and magnetic circuits.
I had a question regarding the picture below. I found out (ferrite magnets were employed for the experiment) that totally closing the magnetic flux, i got some x3 or x4 more flux (i measured strenth of part as a tedency to attach each other) in closed circuit. case B
So, all of you who have steel rotors, you already have the one part of magnetic circuit closed.
:(
My alluminum rotor, leaves in open air magnet's one surface, so closing the loop on the other side, will give not even close the flux you people get..
pffffffffff.....
Regards,
Baroutologos
THANKS FOR THE INFO THERE BART - NOW YOU NEED TO BUILD A NEW STEEL ROTOR SO YOU CAN
GO FLUX YOUSELF AS WELL LIKE US.
T
I ADDED 1/4 LB OF 24 GAUGE WIRE TO SECONDARY #1 TODAY...
TEST DATA # 6 July 18th, 2009 NEW SECONDARY 1 WINDINGS
Primary Input Voltage = 119.9 volts
Primary Input Current = 0.006 amps
Power Factor = 80 degrees / 0.17
Primary Input Power = 125 mW
Secondary Output Voltage = 2.22 volts
Secondary Load = 10 ohms
Secondary Output Power = 493 mW
Efficiency = 394%
ARBITRARILY INCREASING THE INPUT CURRENT 233% TO 0.020 mA TO ACCOUNT FOR ANY POSSIBLE METER ERROR STILL SHOWS OU.
T
Quote from: baroutologos on July 18, 2009, 04:31:08 PM
I had some minor experiments with my top quality core and magnetic circuits.
I had a question regarding the picture below. I found out (ferrite magnets were employed for the experiment) that totally closing the magnetic flux, i got some x3 or x4 more flux (i measured strenth of part as a tedency to attach each other) in closed circuit. case B
So, all of you who have steel rotors, you already have the one part of magnetic circuit closed.
:(
My alluminum rotor, leaves in open air magnet's one surface, so closing the loop on the other side, will give not even close the flux you people get..
pffffffffff.....
Regards,
Baroutologos
So according to this double sided rotor (something like I have) with coils from both sides of a single rotor would be very efficient too? This would create somewhat "closed loop" like its shown in your picture.
Edit: and if I had 4 coils they would be more efficient if I would do 2 on one side and 2 on the other lined up rather then all on one side
Minde
@ Minde
In case you have not closed the magnetic loop on the other side of the magnets,
you can bet you have greater output per coil. Though the cogging torque becomes a damned serious issue that way. (4 poles simultabeously...)
Also core staturation becomes an issue too. - need large cores as 20x30mm+ etc since little flux escapes that way.
.............................
Few pics of the setup:
Motor from pulsed motor to PMDC motor high efficiency (70%+).
6 pole magnet rotor ---> 12 pole magnet rotor of alternating polarity
closed magnetic flux loop (one end) for a pair of coil. 5 pairs intended to be inserted.
rpm range from 1500 (efficient) to 3200 (not at all). "Optimum" operating rpm range 2000-2500
I intend to go with 50 ohms, 24 awg at each coil (1 kgr of wire per coil)
That's for now
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps:
Quotego flux yourself
lol, unfortunately no sufficient funds for now to do that !!! :) :p
Here are 2 coils - one HV 27 awg 66 ohms another HC awg 22 8 ohms. Both bifilar. HC coil does not accelerate at any rpm range because of such a low ohm value. HV coil was finished this morning and I intend to "save" it by using for very short period at the time. It is great - results are very close to the one that I have on videos with power production with acceleration. I would like to install both and see if this HV coil given torque could overcome HC coil lenz and coggin. I might try to wind an outter layer for E coil to get more power and accelecration but I must overcome issues I am experiencing with HV coil:
Even if it is shorted for 10 seconds HV coils get extremely hot. I mean too hot to the touch!! Source of heat seem to be bifilar coil not the core. I havent tried to turn it 90 degrees and test.
Any sugestions always welcome
Minde
Quote from: minde4000 on July 19, 2009, 12:24:40 PM
Any sugestions always welcome
Minde
PROBLEM:WHEN I POKE MYSELF IN THE EYE WITH A SHARP STICK IT HURTS!
SOLUTION:I SHOULD STOP POKING MYSELF IN THE EYE WITH SHARP STICKS.
YOUR SITUATION IS THE SAME - STOP SHORTING YOUR COIL FOR ANY TIME PERIOD.
VARY THE LOAD RESISTANCES FROM 1000 OHMS DOWN TO X? UNTIL YOU FIND AN OPERATING RANGE THAT WORKS. ACCELERATION, POWER AND LESS HEAT. THIS APPLIES FOR ANY COIL.
THE QUALITY OF YOUR WINDINGS IS JUST TOO GOOD! 8) TO BE ALLOWED TO BE SHORTED.
YOU CAN ALSO STEP DOWN YOUR HV OUTPUT THROUGH A TRANSFORMER AND LET THE TRANSFORMER HEAT UP INSTEAD - WHICH IS WHAT I AM DOING IN THE LAB.
BTW - YOU ARE DOING VERY NICE WORK - REALLY NICE NEAT COILS.
T
I just tested one not so good made 29 awg @85 ohms, (biffilar series connected) Hv coil in the 2 coils closed loop setup.
At 1300 rpm it made some 0.27 Amps at 240 volts. At 2500 rpm reached some 500 volts!
It accelarates from 1400 rpm, but it gives me the impression it does so in a manner only beacuse of shorting fades out the cogging effect.
Anyway, i does accelarates, it does prime mover consumes less.
My setup was too draft to make power measurments.
500 hundred volts! I loved that.
@Minde
.....................
WTF??? Nice coil!!!
By the way, i suppose you have made some measurements. How many volts you get and what current at short?
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: baroutologos on July 19, 2009, 02:16:57 PM
It accelarates from 1400 rpm, but it gives me the impression it does so in a manner only beacuse of shorting fades out the cogging effect.
Regards,
Baroutologos
THE WORST THING ANY EXPERIMENTER CAN DO IS THINK!BECAUSE WE TEND TO SEE (PROJECT) WHAT WE EXPECT (ASSUME) TO SEE INSIDE OUR CLOSED THINKING MIND - SO MY SUGGESTION THERE BART IS TO KEEP AN OPEN MIND AND STAY AWAY FROM PREMATURE ASSUMPTIONS.
WHEN YOU GET TO THE POINT WHERE YOU HEAR THE FLUX HITTING THE ROTOR AS MINDE, LUC AND MYSELF HAVE - YOU MAY HAVE TO ASK - "HOW CAN A SATURATING CORE MAKE SOMETHING PHYSICAL THAT HITS THE ROTOR ENOUGH TO MAKE AN AUDIBLE SOUND?"
ANYONE WHO HAS EXPERIENCED THIS HAVE TO CONCLUDE THAT SOMETHING IS LITERALLY SHOOTING OUT OF THE CORE AND HITTING THE ROTOR.
SO PLEASE - DON'T MAKE AN
ASS out of
U and
ME.IF YOU THINK YOUR CORE IS SATURATING - REDUCING CORE DRAG - THEN PUT IT ON A SCOPE AND LOOK FOR A SATURATING "NIPPLE" ON THE VOLTAGE SINE WAVE - THEN POST IT. ALSO IF YOUR CORE IS SATURATED THE VOLTAGE AT 1400 RPM WILL BE THE SAME AT 3000 RPM - SO YOU CAN CHECK THAT ALSO.
ONE FINAL THING ABOUT CORE SATURATION REDUCING COGGING TORQUE:CHECK OUT THE CORE IN THIS VIDEO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps5BqEiFK74&feature=channel_page
THAT IS A MICROWAVE CORE - GOOD FOR 1000 WATTS OR SO. WE ARE PRODUCING 2.5 WATTS AT BEST - WHICH WILL
NOT HAVE ANY EFFECT ON CORE DRAG BECAUSE THE CORE CAN'T SATURATE AT THAT MAGNITUDE.
SO AGAIN MY SUGGESTION TO EVERYONE IS - AVOID ASSUMPTIONS THEY ONLY LIMIT YOUR ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE AND "SEE" THE UNEXPECTED.
T
@ Thane,
I did not even thought that the accelaration effect i got is due to core saturation. We have settled those issues once and for all i think (think)...
Yes, 1400 rpm at 12 pole rotor is quite low. Yes again, i have not experienced yet the flux hitting thing.
I wanted to say that i got a mild accelaration almost dead,, perhaps due to the PMDC motor behaves differently that Ryobi. Ryobi not so torquy so, accelaration is very well seen there. Anyway, i did not wanted to question Peripeteia Mr inventor :P. you got me wrong. I am fellow believer...
.....................
In what rpm range and under which circumstances you experience the rotor-hitting flux?
........................
One thing to notice is that i got some 240 volts (open) @ 0.270 Amps (shorted) @ 1350 rpm and same amperage at 500 volts @ 2500+ rpm. (actually amperage remains more or less the same at all rpms)
My previous noobish same wire ohmage / awg coil, with no closed loop flux (open air)and small and poor quality core, gave me 110+ volts @ 0.13 amps at 1100 rpm.
WTF? Voltage doubled since double the magnets (alternating polarity) ok reasonable. Amperage at short got doubled? damned... I expected a value of x4 or better
I do not know what to THINK about that.
Anyway, first results are encouraging. This gives me courage carry on. :)
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps: I want to hear the flux-rotor-hitting thing!!!!!
ps2: I am through with the 29awg. 24 or lower from now on, i go buy a spool!!
Baroutologos,
If your going to make a new rotor, this might make it easier and looks similar, but not the same as ron's center hub.
I had purchased the following in the attached picture, as a strong center hub to which a metal disc can be easily attached. It seems perfectly balanced when placed on the shaft and run to top rpm. Also, when you pop it with your fingernail, it makes a nice ringing sound. Perfect for 'flux-rotor-hitting thing'.
I haven't attached a disc yet as I've got distracted by another project, but it is on my list.
Regards, Larry
@T
I found out that my coil is heating up without any load or short wires! It must be something wrong with E core material or shape. ???
Minde
Quote from: minde4000 on July 19, 2009, 06:23:07 PM
@T
I found out that my coil is heating up without any load or short wires! It must be something wrong with E core material or shape. ???
Minde
WHEN I WENT TO FILTRAN TRANSFORMERS TO ORDER COILS AND CORE MATERIAL - THE FIRST THING THEY ASKED ME WAS, "WHAT FREQUENCY ARE YOU RUNNING AND DO YOUR CORES HEAT UP?"
YOU HAVE TOO MUCH FLUX IN YOUR CORES AND THE EDDY CURRENT LOSSES ARE TOO HIGH.
YOU NEED BETTER CORE MATERIAL SIR.
WHAT STRENGTH ARE YOUR MAGNETS?
IF YOU MOVE YOUR COILS BACK A LITTLE YOU MIGHT REDUCE SOME HEATING BUT YOU DO NEED NEW CORES - CAN YOU MAKE THEM PHYSICALLY LARGER?
T
Quote from: baroutologos on July 19, 2009, 04:20:41 PM
@ Thane,
I did not even thought that the accelaration effect i got is due to core saturation. We have settled those issues once and for all i think (think)...
WHAT ELSE COULD DO IT THEN?
QuoteI wanted to say that i got a mild accelaration almost dead,, perhaps due to the PMDC motor behaves differently that Ryobi. Ryobi not so torquy so, accelaration is very well seen there. Anyway, i did not wanted to question Peripeteia Mr inventor :P. you got me wrong. I am fellow believer...
YES NOW YOUR COIL MUST ACCELERATE AGAINST THE PERMANENT MAGNET MOTOR'S COGGING TORQUE AS WELL - THIS IS A TALL ORDER FOR ONE COIL.
PLEASE QUESTION EVERYTHING!
BETTER TO BE AN WELL INFORMED NON BELIEVER THAN A KISS ASS IGNORANT BELIEVER.
Quote.....................
In what rpm range and under which circumstances you experience the rotor-hitting flux?
........................
IT DEPENDS ON THE COIL - THE LATEST PROTOTYPE DOES IT AT 1100 RPM.
QuoteOne thing to notice is that i got some 240 volts (open) @ 0.270 Amps (shorted) @ 1350 rpm and same amperage at 500 volts @ 2500+ rpm. (actually amperage remains more or less the same at all rpms)
CURRENT CANNOT FLOW PAST A CERTAIN RPM - IMPEDANCE IS TOO HIGH.
QuoteMy previous noobish same wire ohmage / awg coil, with no closed loop flux (open air)and small and poor quality core, gave me 110+ volts @ 0.13 amps at 1100 rpm.
WTF? Voltage doubled since double the magnets (alternating polarity) ok reasonable. Amperage at short got doubled? damned... I expected a value of x4 or better
I do not know what to THINK about that.
Anyway, first results are encouraging. This gives me courage carry on. :)
HAVE THE COURAGE TO TAKE THE FIRST STEPS AND THE PATH WILL BE REVEALED.
Quote
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps: I want to hear the flux-rotor-hitting thing!!!!!
ps2: I am through with the 29awg. 24 or lower from now on, i go buy a spool!!
AND FOLLOW MINDE'S INSTRUCTIONS - HE'S THE MAN WHEN IT COMES TO COILS.
T
@T
I need to get in touch with Owen and find out what material is this before I discredit them. I hope he is gonna respond to my email because its kind of important to know what I have also it would be easier to determine the issue and what to get next to avoid it. Btw coil wire gets hot before I can feel any heat on core material (must test more to confirm). Could there be any possibility that this coil in some way works againts itself even without being shorted? (just thinking)
Thanks T
Minde
Can capacitor (bifilar coil above certain frequency in this case) heat up because of HV AC being reversed at high frequency even if current does not flow?
Minde
Quote from: CRANKYpants on July 15, 2009, 06:45:44 AM
WHAT MAKES YOU THINK IT WILL?
(JUST CURIOUS)
T
Hi T, sorry i missed this one my friend. I think it will as it really does look like this is possible to
"convert Reactive Power to Real Power."
We have a three phase Trafo we will start your rep with and test it with the RV for all.
Any one here with an RV and lives near thane should give it to him to use.
Ash
Quote from: CRANKYpants on July 19, 2009, 07:16:26 PM
AND FOLLOW MINDE'S INSTRUCTIONS - HE'S THE MAN WHEN IT COMES TO COILS.
T
@Baroutologos
Here is a closup for you 8) There are some 16-18 layers. You can see ends began to mess up starting at ~10th layer and up but other than this coil performs very well (except heat). Takes 6 painfull hours to wind it but when you fire it up all back soar goes away ;D I will try to increase distance and see if that kills heat and should get specs on my laminates to verify if they suitable for this generator.
GL
Minde
@ Mr T
Do not take me for any naive person that believes what it is told, please.
In order to believe something, it must make sense to me and some proof of course. I said those words (fellow believer) with a happy mood and fun.
By the way, despite my failures and non-verification yet of Mr T's results at full extent, i have set my mind regarding Perepiteia's working ability.
I have seen enough videos, i believe (here is the belief) that Mr T is a sincere person, and i ALSO have a mounting evidence that it does actually work.
This is the reason also i invest too much on this. (personal time and money of course)
Anyway, i wish not to be a stuborn person and i am open to new learning depsite how unconventional it is. Current dogma says devices devices like Perepiteia just cannot work. I say, why not?
"to be amazed and to question is philosophy" - Plato
....................................
Enough philosophy, though we the Greeks are natural, especialy if you live near ancient Athens' Acropole. :)
By the way, i am urged to ask you again Minde. in your heat-build coil, that you say the heat does not originate from core rather than windings, what is the current at short???
It must be a lot to do so.
Just calculate heat buildup by the current-resistance formula and tell us.
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps: @ Minde 6 hours for a coil? You'd better become a shaolin monk my friend! (kidding). Excellent result though
Quote from: baroutologos on July 20, 2009, 02:45:57 AM
@ Mr T
By the way, despite my failures and non-verification yet of Mr T's results at full extent, i have set my mind regarding Perepiteia's working ability.
I have seen enough videos, i believe (here is the belief) that Mr T is a sincere person, and i ALSO have a mounting evidence that it does actually work.
This is the reason also i invest too much on this. (personal time and money of course)
Anyway, i wish not to be a stuborn person and i am open to new learning depsite how unconventional it is. Current dogma says devices devices like Perepiteia just cannot work. I say, why not?
"to be amazed and to question is philosophy" - Plato
YOU HAVE A NICE SET UP THERE BART BUT UNFORTUNATELY THE WRONG MOTOR.
YOU MAY NEED MANY COILS BEFORE YOU SEE ANY RESULTS.
ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH "PLATOS IDEAL STATE"?
T
Quote from: minde4000 on July 20, 2009, 01:57:13 AM
You can see ends began to mess up starting at ~10th layer and up
Minde
SLACKER! ;)
T
ps 1
CAN YOU MAKE AND SHIP YOUR COILS WORLDWIDE?
ps 2
TEST 1: TAKE YOUR COIL OFF AND TEST A COIL FREE CORE FOR HEAT.
TEST 2: THEN PUT COIL BACK ON - LEAVE ON NO LOAD - TEST FOR HEAT.
IF TEST #2 IS HOTTER THAN #1 YOU MAY HAVE A SHORT IN YOUR COIL (DOUBTFUL THOUGH).
TEST 3: CAN YOU MAKE A LARGER COIL FREE CORE (MORE LAMINATIONS) AND TEST?
TEST 4: MAKE A SMALLER CORE AND TEST (SHOULD GET HOTTER FASTER).
Quote from: ashtweth_nihilisti on July 20, 2009, 01:40:34 AM
Hi T, sorry i missed this one my friend. I think it will as it really does look like this is possible to
"convert Reactive Power to Real Power."
We have a three phase Trafo we will start your rep with and test it with the RV for all.
Any one here with an RV and lives near thane should give it to him to use.
Ash
SEND ME AN EMAIL @ thane_heins@yahoo.ca IF YOU WOULD LIKE A FULL REPORT.
AS WITH PREVIOUS BI-TOROID PROTOTYPE TESTING THE WEAK LINK WOULD HAVE TO BE THE CLAMP ON CURRENT PROBE, BUT AS I MENTIONED IN A PREVIOUS POST ARBITRARILY INCREASING THE PRIMARY INPUT CURRENT 233% STILL SHOWS OU.
T
Quote from: baroutologos on July 20, 2009, 02:45:57 AM
By the way, i am urged to ask you again Minde. in your heat-build coil, that you say the heat does not originate from core rather than windings, what is the current at short???
It must be a lot to do so.
Just calculate heat buildup by the current-resistance formula and tell us.
Shorted 0.55 amps. The thingy is bart that my coil heats up without any short with open circuit once I reach some 2500 rpm and up. No need to short. I increased gap this morning. "Heat index" rose from 2000 to 2500 rpm looks like but power output dropped almost in half altho it still accelerates very well.
Minde
@ Thane
I am familiar from School days about Plato's Ideal State, but never gave a second look on it.
As i getting older, this is on my-to-do list!
Have in mind that Plato was the only to one to report Atlantis. So the Ideal state may has something to do with it. (Atlantis was the inspiration?)
......
Yes, i go with one coil to investigate output - not accelaration so much. Only the max output before drag appears, i am only concerned at the momement. And yes again, i have ordered for 10 long coils to form 5x2 closed magnetic loop pairs, wired with 24awg (1kgr each).
22 is just too much for this setup.
.........
@ Minde
So Mr T must be right. i cannot see any reason with windings could warm unshorted unless:
heated by core or internal short. short not present (as you suggest) so heated by the core. If you claim that core stays cool, then you claim something extraordinary.
* 0.55 amps? Geez, in the 50 ohms setup? That equals a 15 watts ohmic loses. 15 watts can easily warm up a coil (when shorted).
Regards,
Baroutologos
Thane, can the transformer go beyond the milliwatt range? Or will things fall apart? What is currently holding it back from outputting 100 watt for example?
Quote from: baroutologos on July 20, 2009, 11:35:49 AM
..... i cannot see any reason with windings could warm unshorted unless:
heated by core or internal short. short not present (as you suggest) so heated by the core. If you claim that core stays cool, then you claim something extraordinary.
I am not sure,
but yes, the whole thing is EXTRAORDINARY.
And there should be an electromagnetic signal oscillating in the windings due to the aproaching/receeding magnets. So what should keep the windings from heating up (even if not shorted , i.e. even at open circuit) ?
Lightbulbs heat up too,
even at open circuit, stimulated by wirelessly received pressure waves.
Minde's coils are just too perfect.
Hi Thane and All,
Here are pics of my new BTT. Full metglass tape wound core components. Initialy I built with iron wire primaries and it did not perform very well. Then I unwound it and rewound on a full metglass core.
At the moment I have only used 50% DC pulse excitation. 0V...20V kHz range.
I scoped over non inductive R and took a snapshot of the input transient with DSO and calculated single pulse energy, then multiplied by total pulses given in time X to calculate average power.
I connected the secondaries in series and squirted them into a 470uF electrolytic cap using a 1n4148 full wave bridge and timed how long to charge to 20V thus calculating output energy over time X and thus average power.
The thing seems to have some resonance at 80kHz and at that value I saw over 90% transformer efficiency. this suprised me because my excitation pulse is not ideal for a cored transformer, a really sharp pulse containing very high frequency components that the core can simply not pass, also field reversal is not optimum only achieved by the backspike. I knew it wasn't all passing because I tried my AM radio and it was buzzing loudly as the corners of the excitation pulse radiated as RF in the primary.
I tried passing from one secondary to the other, it is less efficient, less than ~70%. So BTT is performing better than a straight toroid of metglass on square pulses.
When my new sig genny arrives I will put it through it's paces using nice pure SIN. I bought it untested for a real good price, fingers crossed it's not a dud ???:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150358965987
I also tried a neon bulb on the secondaries in series, it lit nice and bright with less than 20mW RMS primary input power, it performs better than a Stiffler SEC unit which needs over 50mW to get the same visual brightness, again this spooked me a little.
I can't wait for my signal genny, very clean sin so I can do power factor stuff at multiple frequencies and get a better handle on this. Thanks for the concept Thane.
Yucca.
I have Microsil grain oriented silicon 0.014 laminates. Here is a quick link to characteristics: http://www.magmet.com/tapewound/microsil.php
Let me know know what you think about material. And NO there is no short in my coil. Seems like the hotter it gets the more rpm it eats from ryobi while still open circuit (you can see how rpm begins to drop on its own at same voltage on prime mover).
Minde
I do not know Minde. I can only speculate for your situation
No short, no core heat, no current flowing, still get hot?
By the way, can you tell me for what voltage magnitude we are talking about?
Current at short 0.55 ok got it. Voltage?
It is the biffilar coil right?
One possible explaination is that (if biffilar and high voltage) the isulation of the wire does not hold up the voltage and we have dielectric break down.
Another one of course is the "standing waves" or Avramenko experiments waves or one wire electricity etc.
Who knows. I recall your 1800 vac!! geez.. almost everything can happen in that scale.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Your coil heating might just as well be due to eddy currents induced by the high freq induction of the magnets sweeping past your relatively thick pack of coil windings.
Quote from: Yucca on July 20, 2009, 03:09:29 PM
Hi Thane and All,
I can't wait for my signal genny, very clean sin so I can do power factor stuff at multiple frequencies and get a better handle on this. Thanks for the concept Thane.
Yucca.
NICE JOB THERE YUCCA...
BUT DO YOU WANT AN OU TRANSFORMER BEFORE THE END OF THE WEEK THAT USES 120 V (AND A NICE SINE WAVE) @ 60 (OR 50 HZ) STRAIGHT FROM THE WALL? 8)
IF YOU DO, THEN REMOVE THAT LOW IMPEDANCE PRIMARY AND PUT A HIGH IMPEDANCE ONE IN THERE.
150 OHMS @ 30 GAUGE OUGHT TO DO IT.A HIGH IMPEDANCE PRIMARY WILL DO THREE THINGS:
1st
IT WILL GET YOUR INPUT CURRENT DOWN IN THE BELOW 10 mA RANGE LIKE MINE.
2nd
IT WILL CREATE A HIGH IMPEDANCE
"CHOKE" FOR THE SECONDARY FLUXES WHICH WOULD RATHER STAY IN THE OUTER RING - BECAUSE NOW NOT ONLY IS THE SMALLER CORE INCREASING THE PRIMARY FLUX PATH RELUCTANE BUT THE HIGH IMPEDANCE PRIMARY COIL IS DOING IT AS WELL.
3rd
THE HIGH INDUCTIVE PRIMARY WILL ALSO GIVE YOU A NICE Pf VERY CLOSE TO ZERO.
T
... BE WARNED THOUGH - IF YOU DO GET IT WORKING YOU WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CARPET BOMBING OF EVERY COUNTRY WITH PALM TREES :o (BACKGROUND OF YOUR PHOTOS DUDE).
Quote from: Nali2001 on July 20, 2009, 06:31:32 PM
Your coil heating might just as well be due to eddy currents induced by the high freq induction of the magnets sweeping past your relatively thick pack of coil windings.
THIS IS YOUR ANSWER MINDE...
TRY YOUR SETUP SANS COIL AND YOU WILL SEE.
ALSO TRY IT WITH JUST AN I CORE AND YOU WILL SEE -SEE, IT SHOULD HEAT UP LESS AS WELL - OR MY NAME'S NOT MUD.
T
Let's assume I have an electrical home heating system of a few killowatts. Can I put this transformer between the wall plug and the heater or do I need a gigantic transformer to accomplish that?
Quote from: broli on July 20, 2009, 07:34:01 PM
Let's assume I have an electrical home heating system of a few killowatts. Can I put this transformer between the wall plug and the heater or do I need a gigantic transformer to accomplish that?
YOU NEED A "GIGANTIC" TRANSFORMER BETWEEN THE WALL PLUG AND THE HEATER WHICH TAKES
REACTIVE POWER FROM THE WALL
(REAL POWER = 0 WATTS) AND PRODUCES
REAL KILOWATS VITUALLY FOR FREE.
T
Huh..I found the way to keep it barely warm to the touch 8) I must load it up at 2600rpm and up and it stays cool even if loaded for 10 minutes. Maybe that excessive voltage buildup in the coil at some point starts work against itself? My 150 ohm awg 30 coil produced 1800ac. This bifilar is higher. I did some tests:
85ac 100ac 120ac
3158 rpm 3388 rpm 3454 rpm
5.88 amps 4.71 amps 4.22 amps
On every test rotor accelerated with power drop to prime mover. Power was drawn thru 5:1 transformer into 2 10 ohm 10W resistors connected in series. Voltage across both resistors was 29.9V @ 1.5amp. Poor resistors were smoking my wood board but thats all I had to handy to as for load and to measure power while still not loosing acceleration. Comes up to somewhat 44Watts while accelerating and toghether reducing power draw at prime mover. Sorry I did not measure no load condition because if I unload it anything above 2600 it starts to heat up ??? I will reconfirm all this tommorow and will get rpm and power the load was connected at. As soon as I unload it rpm drops amps increase but I dont wanna keep it for long unloaded or it will burn out also. So weird stuff with pretty good output. If this inner works out I might try to add outter coil for more power output and acceleration. We will see.
Minde
Quote from: CRANKYpants on July 20, 2009, 07:01:43 PM
NICE JOB THERE YUCCA...
BUT DO YOU WANT AN OU TRANSFORMER BEFORE THE END OF THE WEEK THAT USES 120 V (AND A NICE SINE WAVE) @ 60 (OR 50 HZ) STRAIGHT FROM THE WALL? 8)
IF YOU DO, THEN REMOVE THAT LOW IMPEDANCE PRIMARY AND PUT A HIGH IMPEDANCE ONE IN THERE. 150 OHMS @ 30 GAUGE OUGHT TO DO IT.
A HIGH IMPEDANCE PRIMARY WILL DO THREE THINGS:
1st
IT WILL GET YOUR INPUT CURRENT DOWN IN THE BELOW 10 mA RANGE LIKE MINE.
2nd
IT WILL CREATE A HIGH IMPEDANCE "CHOKE" FOR THE SECONDARY FLUXES WHICH WOULD RATHER STAY IN THE OUTER RING - BECAUSE NOW NOT ONLY IS THE SMALLER CORE INCREASING THE PRIMARY FLUX PATH RELUCTANE BUT THE HIGH IMPEDANCE PRIMARY COIL IS DOING IT AS WELL.
3rd
THE HIGH INDUCTIVE PRIMARY WILL ALSO GIVE YOU A NICE Pf VERY CLOSE TO ZERO.
T
... BE WARNED THOUGH - IF YOU DO GET IT WORKING YOU WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CARPET BOMBING OF EVERY COUNTRY WITH PALM TREES :o (BACKGROUND OF YOUR PHOTOS DUDE).
I have 24AWG throughout at the moment, 450 wraps on each secondary and only about 400 on the primary and that took me many hours to do.
I see the sense in all 3 factors that you mention, and so I shall try it. It may take me longer than a week though, more like a month. I´ll post my progress here when I do make MK2.
For wall frequency I will have to make a new core anyway, because the core in the photo is unbonded, it is just metglass tape wound tightly with no adhesive and at low frequencies it buzzes like a banshee as the laminations strongly repel when energised and so lots of power is lost.
So I will make a new core using metglass tape that I pass through a thin epoxy resin bath as I wind it.
I´ll wind secondaries similar to what I´ve done and a high Z primary as you suggest.
If I´m to wind 30AWG at 150Ohm then I may wind that using a drill on a custom form made from glass fibre or something first and then thread my resin wetted metglass through that. I don´t think I could stomach hand winding the wire round the already formed primary core toroids, many thousands of wraps, it would take days!
I´ve still got plent of testing ideas to do with the BTT I´ve built using high kHz freq sin when my sig genny arrives.
Yucca.
It would seem that too much current/flux would be a killer for the BT transformer due to all the core losses. Do you have a word or graph on the efficiency figure with increasing input voltage?
Also what would your opinion be on using the BT to generate high voltages and hooking its secondaries up to a conventional step down transformer. Wouldn't that solve the core loses problems and be more economical than building a giant BT transformer?
Quote from: broli on July 20, 2009, 08:59:11 PM
It would seem that too much current/flux would be a killer for the BT transformer due to all the core losses. Do you have a word or graph on the efficiency figure with increasing input voltage?
Also what would your opinion be on using the BT to generate high voltages and hooking its secondaries up to a conventional step down transformer. Wouldn't that solve the core loses problems and be more economical than building a giant BT transformer?
QUESTION:
DID YOU STOP BEATING YOUR WIFE YET?
ANSWER 1 - YES (I STOPPED)
ANSWER 2 - NO (I DIDN'T STOP)
EITHER WAY I'M AN IMPLIED WIFE BEATER.
WE DESIGN IN
"CORE LOSSES" ??? TO KEEP THE OVER 100% EFFICIENCIES LOW OR PEOPLE WOULDN'T BELIEVE US IF THEY WERE SAY 2000% EFFICIENT.
T
My wife is just fine.
I think you missed the point. Sure the efficiency still overcomes the core losses. But it doesn't overcome my bank account. If I had to build a car sized custom BT transformer I would be in debt for the rest of my life. But if I used a smaller BT transformer combined with off the shelves conventional transformer to step down the high voltage I would not be bankrupt so fast.
To power big loads you either need one gigantic BT transformer and a rich wife or a small BT transformer producing high voltages and off the shelves step down transformer to get your household voltage/current.
Of course I might also be talking out of my ass.
Quote from: minde4000 on July 20, 2009, 08:45:46 PM
Maybe that excessive voltage buildup in the coil at some point starts work against itself? My 150 ohm awg 30 coil produced 1800ac. This bifilar is higher.
Minde
Probably this is the cause. 1800+ vac, dear!
It seems to me you have an awesome rotor there that at grinder speeds outputs so much, in contrast what we are already acustomed.
40 watts output?:) at 27awg? That's cool. :)
In my humble noob oppinion, if you are concerned about efficient output extraction from the coil, you should have a voltage range as Mr T has 400-500 vac is just fine.
Above this rating, as people suggest, cause of eddie curents or dielectric breakdown between adjacent wires (biffilar), or dont' know what - you have losses that you do not want to have.
Thicker wires are the solution to it i suppose. If that wont' help, then you should move a little away coil from magnets. HV coils
are not meant to have much current through them (unless superconductors) and to operate at such voltages.(unless you have wire with kilovolt specs)
I must add that the biffilar coil at those volts (2K!) will have its capacitative aspect at maximum! (since increases at voltage squared)
Anyway, it is fun to experiment with that! High voltages are very intriguing! Watch out for electrecution though :p
..................................
May i ask for something? If it is not much trouble, Could you report perfomance with capacitors? High voltage low uf and high uf low voltage ratings?
...........................................
@Thane,
I am over-confident you have tried cap charging as well battery charging. Can you share your experience with that? Is it of any good at having a cap charged with HV coil(s)?
I ask that because i am intending at employing 10 coils. I cannot afford at having 10 stepdown trasformers (since coils out of phase).
I need a common, energy bank, to be filled by the HV coils through FWBR. Is it efficient to charge capacitors? Please share your experience.
Cap coils
........................................
While i was noob-wandered about - what if biffilar coils ala tesla type are better than ordinary ones, Mr T has in common use of them! :P
Having inspired by Minde's winding skills, i feel that we should move to better HV cap coils. What about those to be wound with insulated copper foil??? This will give far greater capacitance to the coil and will (i think) advance its beneficial aspects. It takes quite a labour though, but who cares??? :)
Have a look to the following picture.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Also Thane I kept wondering whether the primary coil could be substituted by a strong rotating neodymium magnet like you see below. Since the measurements show almost no real power on the primary side being used I would assume this would translate to almost no lenz drag on the rotor. The advantage of a neo magnet is its strong flux source thus higher outputs.
Could you imagine the paradox if the Perpetiea was the prime mover of this magnet ;D .
Quote from: broli on July 21, 2009, 04:17:01 AM
Also Thane I kept wondering whether the primary coil could be substituted by a strong rotating neodymium magnet like you see below. Since the measurements show almost no real power on the primary side being used I would assume this would translate to almost no lenz drag on the rotor. The advantage of a neo magnet is its strong flux source thus higher outputs.
Could you imagine the paradox if the Perpetiea was the prime mover of this magnet ;D .
BEAUTY IDEA! :D
AND AS WE KNOW A GENERATOR IS A TRANSFORMER WITH A ROTATING PRIMARY - TRANSFORMING MECHANICAL POWER TO ELECTRICAL POWER.
YOUR DRAWING SHOULD INCLUDE A MORE VISIBLE AIR GAP - (FOR PRESENTATION SAKE ONLY) BUT I WOULD BE WILLING TO PUT MONEY ON THE FACT THAT IT CERTAINLY
COULD WORK.
STEVE IS THE MAN WITH THE DUAL COIL GENERATOR EXPERIENCE - ASK HIM WHAT HE THINKS?
T
Quote from: baroutologos on July 21, 2009, 02:57:00 AM
Probably this is the cause. 1800+ vac, dear!
It seems to me you have an awesome rotor there that at grinder speeds outputs so much, in contrast what we are already acustomed.
40 watts output?:) at 27awg? That's cool. :)
In my humble noob oppinion, if you are concerned about efficient output extraction from the coil, you should have a voltage range as Mr T has 400-500 vac is just fine.
Above this rating, as people suggest, cause of eddie curents or dielectric breakdown between adjacent wires (biffilar), or dont' know what - you have losses that you do not want to have.
Thicker wires are the solution to it i suppose.
..................................
May i ask for something? If it is not much trouble, Could you report perfomance with capacitors? High voltage low uf and high uf low voltage ratings?
Regards,
Baroutologos
Ya what comes to 44 W output is pretty good out of that relatively small coil. I will try to add an outter coil around this inner... 80W with acceleration? Would be great. On the other hand I need 24-25 awg and fill bobbin to the top and that should be more efficient than this awg 27 or maybe not. What do you mean about caps? Connect cap parralel to your coil and see if that helps in acceleration or power output? I have tried that with 2200vac microwave cap. Nothing worth paying attention to. Take your time winding bifilar and you will be rewarded.
I would like to try some 100+ ohm awg 27 bifilar (big capacitor) on same E core. Load it up at low rpm to avoid voltage over buildup and see what can you get out of it at high rpm. It is parasitic when unloaded but when loaded it might be very efficient at higher rpm because of capacistance and number of turns it has..
@T
What was you lowest awg bifilar? Have you ever tested high awg high ohm bifilars? or just 22-24?
Minde
@broli
RE Bitoroid Transformer:
I suppose you could maybe use higher voltages and then step down, this might improve power to weight ratio, without experimenting lots more I'm not sure though ???
Also I think running at 60Hz is not great, certainly in normal transformers you get much better power to weight ratios using fast cores and much higher frequencies, that's why im going for a metglass core using up to 100 kHz SIN excitation.
I'm seeing Thanes BTT as a good proof of concept at the moment, if his power factor reports and scopeshots are as shown (I have no reason to doubt them) then it is without doubt doing some good stuff!
caps
........
No minde, i did not mean connecting a cap parallel or anything. I meant to measure the energy transfer efficiency by charging a cap via a FWBR.
It will be interesting.
By the way, watch out the caps. they bite bad!
Regards,
Baroutologos
Edit:
My DMM is damaged. Spikes must have done the job :)
I measure my biffilar coil that was under brief testing , again, and measures some 55 ohms - not 85- as i have previously claimed.
So 55 ohms/29 awg outputs in my rotor at +- 1 cm gap (closed loop magnetic field by utilizing 2 coils) 500 volts at 2200 and 0.28 Amps.
I coclude if i make a 100 ohms and spinning rotor at 3000 rpms easily i could hit kilo volt range. !!
question
................
It is the biffilar or HV coils are meant to be that High voltage???
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: baroutologos on July 22, 2009, 05:07:45 PM
I coclude if i make a 100 ohms and spinning rotor at 3000 rpms easily i could hit kilo volt range. !!
question
................
It is the biffilar or HV coils are meant to be that High voltage???
Regards,
Baroutologos
I have 66 ohm bifilar awg 27 and it hits 1k at only 2000+ rpm. Depends on magnet strenght and gap? Lots of flux goes thru that E core too. I have no meter anymore to measure anything beyond that. Thane suggested to try a lower 22-24 awg and I cores he gets better output but I dont have wire to try.
Minde
Here is same E coil with bifilar 27 awg 43 ohm outter coil. There are 10 layers. However this outter coil acts as a brake at any time. Voltage does triple across the load when inner is shorted but I think I didnt wind enough ohms. Need to wind an extension I guess to some 60-70 ohms and see what happens then.
EDIT: voltage generation open circuit is like 1:10 less value being outter
@Baroutologos
Sorry man I will not measure anything right now. Even tho inner is accelerating with power production it does not overcome cogging torque all by itself at any time so there is too much power consumption by ryobi. If outter will work out with extra winds I will measure then but till then not too much "perpetia" in it... I have a feeling I cores large coils with low awg will give a better perfomance overall as is was said by T.
Regards Minde
Minde.
Your coils are awsome. I envy your work. Good luck on the replications.
Brad
@Minde,
You winding skills leave me speechless... You are gifted Minde on that. You are a natural... I will never post my windings! :P
And yes, as you say, everything depends on:
how strong your magnets are
- mine are 40 libs strentgh doubled stacked (25mm x 10mm N40)
how much air gap
- i operate with two coils on two magnets simultaneously at some 1 cm distance. My SKF 20mm inner diameter bearings make tremendous noise and vibration if i dare to lessen the gap. Need odd-even configuration here. Grinder's bearings are specially made for applying some short of unbalanced force on the spinning grinder stone and still being silent.
how strong magnetic flux is put through your cores
- limitations exist though that can lead to core saturation.
I find out that by physically attaching a coil to a laminated surface for closing the magnetic path (or backing toroid i think :) ) is not as good as having solid E-core since it leaves some tiny airgap anyway.
And of course... coil's geometry and composition.
-AWG, number of turns, winding skills :p etc.
I have reached the conclusion that above a certain layer's thickness, more layers are burden. You can better go with a longer core to have wire turns as close as possible to core.
You can achieve same results by incresing core diameter but not too good though, since crossection increases exponentialy to radius in contrast to surface which increases proportionally. (we are after surface since layers are there) meaning more mass, more losses, etc etc
...................
Ok, all these are already known i suppose. I felt a small repetition does not hurt anybody :)
I look forward this weekend to experiment with output generation and how can output can be efficiently stored. We ae working, if done corrected with the biffilar setup at kilovolt range. WTF? Using step down transformers for that range are of any good? What about at using many coils... many stepdown transformers? Geez... must be another way.
(Mr Thane would not respond on cap filling :) )
I must admit that my inner desire is to make Perepiteia to go OU and ultimately become a self runner. It's not a shame to admit that i suppose, after all we are all seeking that with one or another way.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: minde4000 on July 22, 2009, 11:03:49 PM
Here is same E coil with bifilar 27 awg 43 ohm outter coil. There are 10 layers. However this outter coil acts as a brake at any time. Voltage does triple across the load when inner is shorted but I think I didnt wind enough ohms. Need to wind an extension I guess to some 60-70 ohms and see what happens then.
EDIT: voltage generation open circuit is like 1:10 less value being outter
I have a feeling I cores large coils with low awg will give a better perfomance overall as is was said by T.
Regards Minde
YOU ARE RIGHT - AND I THINK YOU SHOULD STICK IT OUT WITH YOU E COILS FOR A WHILE MINDE - I AM SURE IT'S NOT EASY FOR YOU BUT IT IS INSPIRING FOR EVERYONE.
YES - WHAT YOU NEED TO DO NOW IF POSSIBLE? IS TO
RECORD YOUR PERFORMANCE DATA,
THEN ADD ABOUT 20 MORE OHMS AND THEN RE-TEST.
WHAT YOU OUGHT TO FIND IS SLIGHTLY
LESS DECELERATION.
THEN ADD MORE TURNS (AGAIN ABOUT 20 OHMS) - AND RE-TEST.
KEEP DOING THIS UNTIL YOU FIND THE NEUTRAL ZONE AND THEN BEYOND THAT THE ACCELERATING ZONE - AS IN THIS GOOD FRIDAY VIDEO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp2x6Vtu9Kg&feature=channel_page
THE IMPORTANT THING IS THAT YOU HAVE ESTABLISHED THAT YOU CAN COLLECT INNER HV COIL FLUX AND
ADD IT TO THE OUTER HV FLUX. THIS WOULD BE A GOOD GENERATOR IN AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE BECAUSE NOW YOU HAVE SHOWN INNER COIL
REGENERATIVE ACCELERATION AND OUTER COIL
REGENERATIVE BRAKING.
GOOD JOB! ;)
T
What I understand so far is that one of the main variables between the shown builds is the space between magnets of the rotor. If the space is greater, each magnet pass will cause a greater whipping effect off the coil since the zero and TDC will be at greater extremes. If the magnets are closer, the cycle changes will be less extreme since the next magnet is already on the core before the previous one leaves the core. This to me spells a rotor having wider magnet spacing wants to impart more amperage but is stuck in voltage mode because of the coil design.
I suspect the coil, in the case of wider magnet spacing, should be multiple wires all wound together, like 4 to 10 or more wires of 18 to 22 awg all wound together over the core, then connected in parallel. This will lower the output voltage but increase the amperage making it easier to then send to any electrical device. As a shorted coil, this may also provide a better and quicker and stronger repulse to cause a better acceleration effect.
The bifilar may be good at the higher frequency but only when the core can handle the core to coil frequency like Thanes core material.
But if you use a regular transformer core that is rated to be used at 60hz, you may have trouble.
Example:
At 2400 rpm with 12 magnets, if each two magnet passes (one north then one south) is one cycle this equals 14,400 cycles per minute or 240 hertz. If you used a 60hz compatible core you would need to have a winding with 4 parallel wires. Your wheel will turn at 2400 rpm, but the coil will cut the core transfer into a lower frequency but bigger amps. If you used 8 wires, you could then bifilar them back to 4. If you used 12 wires, you could trifilar them back to 4 also.
I think that's why the bifilar coil is heating up. It does not know what to do with the high frequency since the core cannot react fast enough to the coil flyback that makes the repulse acceleration, it is instead getting stuck in the coil and creating heat. A simple test would be to just connect the now bifilar coil as a simple dual parallel coil. This should double the amperage, half the voltage while halfing the flyback speed and hopefully reduce some of the heat. Wow this adds to the overall dynamics of the many potential effects.
Once a rotor is made, the number of magnets and spacing cannot be changed if the rotor design does not permit sliding the magnets to add more. Only the rpm can be varied but you need a minimum to start any reasonable transfer. But you can play with the number of wires in your coil to decide how to translate the rotors' eventual output that should be based on the magnets rpm but also on its spacing.
Just look at a regular car alternator stator. Why do they use three phased coiling of good sized wire to then rectify it to 12vdc but with 100's of amps with final result of 1200 watts. How many turns are in an alternator stator per phase? Not many. Hmmmmmm. Yes the available torque is not the same but the transfer method should tell us something.
So it looks like there is definitely more things to consider before I make my final rotor design, magnets with fixed or variable spacings, rpm, available torque, core material, wire size and winding methods. It is one major balancing act. I think the rotor/magnets should be made first, then matched to a motor, then driven under various simulated drag conditions to find the most efficient input/rpm versus output. Then take that rpm, add an expected rpm increase under the shorted coil method, and with that final rpm, build the core/coils according to the desired acceleration and/or output.
I'm still waiting for a reply from the C core manufacturer. I guess my realistic build timing will be by mid to end of August depending on what the C core manufacturer says.
I would also like to give my thanks to all you guys who are sharing here since all this information is critical for me to prepare my build.
Quote from: minde4000 on July 22, 2009, 11:03:49 PM
Here is same E coil with bifilar 27 awg 43 ohm outter coil.
Regards Minde
Minde,
This is the way I see it working (not working) and I would enjoy your view as to why it should work?
With the outer coil wound over three cores, with one cores flux 180 degrees out of phase, the output will be:
1A +1C - 1B = 1A
See first drawing for the above, second drawing for below…
With the HV coil on the center core shorted, this will effectively ‘cloak’ the center core. It also has the effect of reversing the poles on the center core.
The results of this will be to make it “seem†like the output from the outer coil has increased. It has to a certain extent because the “-1B†has been hidden allowing the “1A and the 1C†to add… but less the ‘normal’ flux flow that has been suspended through the center core so the two outer cores will only be single ended flux carriers.
I have clearly stated this before, no one has refuted it.
Ron
Build it and load test it, and prove it to your self its the only way. I wont be putting meters on mine.
I understand what you all saying here. I do not claim this to be overunity and still not see how it could be. The stuff I did does not mean much. I used whatever I had handy 27 awg only + 5:1 60 hz transformer the only one I had. I think perfomance with properly designed system might be better. According to my current findings if I were to mount 6 E coils on 1 side I would get some 240W output vs 600W+ input and low rpm no matter how much they all accelerate. I have empty spinning rotor power measurements with various rpm and power and even dead shorted coil had not reached that efficiency yet. So power waste is obvious because of cogging torque and I am not even considering when I try to drain power out. I understand all that. BUT there is toroid with I cores with large coils in my case and many other different configurations to be tested wich are beyond my capabilities before I can say anything for sure. Please dont blame me because I am building something that you think will not work out. Eitheir way is a great learning eperience to me.
Minde
EDIT: Cogging seem to be an issue? Longer cores large long coils low awg bifilars might overcome cogging while still producing producing usuable power. As T said: what limits the size of coils? Power production is lenzless WITH cogging reduction so as I said properly designed system might turn the scales.
@All, I am urged to speak
Ok, we are debating again! People those are not constructive words.
As i see it, Perepiteia has future :)
@Minde,
Yes 45 or 90 watts out is nothing compared to 600 watts in. The grinder is for proof of concept. As Ashtweth has said, "you cannot go OU in a system of loss. That's why i am overconcerned about primary motor imput. Idealy, coils open circuit , free running the Perepiteia setup should draw 1 watt. More realistically 50 watts free running its cool.
If i am to draw 1 KW for out 100w or even 500 watts is useless.
Conventional generators with 70% efficiency and a LOT of lenz's drag for every watt IN give 0.7 watts out. Period!
The best way as far i know is to go rotoverter (RV) if you have the knowledge to do so, and tune it to the load. Ashweth as well Wattup will give a new dimension on this.
People be tolerant with Mr T :). He has a temper.... :P (no offence meant by that). Sadly he is constantly under fire while he has done remarkably progress last half year. He is willing to share insights as far as people follow with right questions, istead of question and insult him all time.
(that i have concluded)
@Ashtweth
As correctly you say, meters are to be obsolete. If this machine is of real value (as my motor bike is :) and i thinks it is) the we should make an appropriate setup that its results will be more than obvious. No meter around :) to show anything.
@Minde
We have talked about cogging torque. It's the rotor demon! Firstly it put enormous stress on bearings, and secondly impedes rotation. Bedini used a flywheel for smoothing cogging torque. I have used an unbalanced one. (need calibration - almost broke my shaft).
By the way, by even applying a flywheel, the bearing stress is not alleviated.
It is there.
The best thing one has to do is to go with finest bearings around and OF COURSE the old and proven odd-even configuration.
If problem persists, consider distancing coils from magnets. Its benefit maybe greater than power drop.
That's all for now.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Hi Baroutologos, yes its not going to be easy for the nay sayer non replicator to discourage Thane or US all. Been around too long to see how the BS forms (especially in here some times). ;). I always run a load as my "meter" and measure power going in and by REAL work being performed.. Hopefully this will work on the RV and help Thane /All. I don't care for looping, as we don't know enough about the energy YET. Crawl, walk then run.
Quote from: minde4000 on July 23, 2009, 11:43:22 PM
According to my current findings if I were to mount 6 E coils on 1 side I would get some 240W output vs 600W+ input and low rpm no matter how much they all accelerate.
Eitheir way is a great learning eperience to me.
Minde
CONSIDER WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF YOU TRIED TO TAKE 240 WATTS FROM A
CONVENTIONAL (DECELERATING) STSTEM?T
Quote from: minde4000 on July 23, 2009, 11:43:22 PM
Please dont blame me because I am building something that you think will not work out. Eitheir way is a great learning eperience to me.
Minde
Minde, I am not blaming you at all. It was a lesson for all of us. As you know I have done the experiments… I have published my results… nothing would please me more than to see your results as more productive than mine.
I approached this exactly as you, as a learning experience. Having built many ‘proof of concepts’ over the years, I began to realize that the basic rules are fairly realistic. When something is in violation of the basic rules, then there is a good chance that it won’t work. All I was trying to do was to point out a basic rule violation with the “e core†This is not bulls*it as Ash implies, rather a fundamental flaw. The “e core†does not work, will not work, now or ever, because of this flaw. Please note that I am not calling down Thane’s work, only the flawed “e core†Why the ‘pack’ thinks this is negative and should not be spoken of on this list is more an indication of the limited mentality of the person doing the protesting than the constructive remarks of an honest experimenter.
Just to simplify for all… two adjacent coils can not be the same hand. Yet in the “E core†the outside coil is wound over three cores, the center one being ‘wrong handed’
I have simplified it for you, in this sketch by just showing two of the cores.
Ron
@I_ron
Tnx man for your input and drawings. I appreciate that.
@All
I have finished outter layer. Now there is 102 ohms instead of 43 ohms I had before. Man, I tried my best on this one so I can be more confident it will represent closely the original E coil idea of the inventor because sometimes ppl are not patient and sloppy and only because of that concept would not work. Also this is the last time I spent 11 hours combined winding E outter coil. This time if inner is shorted and max rpm reached engaging outter one rpm rises even more. But this means nothing until I will get all data probably tommorow. I will compare then single inner core with inner + outter core perfomances at exectly the same voltage and loads. It will be more OR less efficient - one or the other. I have tested it but did not use same loads so I coulndt compare exectly.
What do you think about I core and bifilars Ron?
Regards Minde
Whow... eleven hours winding a coil !! Cheez Minde you are a patience example of a man!
Waiting your input data! Time to get my project rolling..
Regards,
Baroutologos
Minde, why not spent 8 hours building a winding jig and then less than one hour winding coils?
Quote from: broli on July 25, 2009, 05:21:10 AM
Minde, why not spent 8 hours building a winding jig and then less than one hour winding coils?
Because I care that
each wire will go side by side without gaps overlaps or other by guiding both wires while the coil spin on the winding jig (drill mounted sideways with variac). I do not wind @1000rpm+ . I care about coil perfomance efficiency and capacistance.
Minde
M
Quote from: minde4000 on July 24, 2009, 09:05:39 PM
@I_ron
Tnx man for your input and drawings. I appreciate that.
snip
What do you think about I core and bifilars Ron?
Regards Minde
Minde, As others have already commented, your coil windin g is superb!
I have no problem with "I" cores, "C" cores or even "E" cores. Just that it is customary to reverse the connections to the center leg's coil in such a situation.
This is a common theme when you connect more than one coil, is to check to see that the voltages add. Anyone can (and should) do this experiment with three legs, the cores don't have to be connected, three "I" core will do if spaced over three N S N poles.
This is the fallacy of the Thane E core coil, is that the outer coil is wound over three legs. The setup then starts from a one down position where when you short the center coil and remove it's influence the outer coil, all of a sudden, springs to life. It is a false indication of success.
Just a tiny bit of logic and follow the sequence through. It is not hard to visualize. The outer coil 'sees' two positive going and one negative impulses at any one instant of time. (or two negative to one positive) Remove the center core by shorting it's coil and you have two positive impulses that add. But the bugaboo now is you are left with a "C" core over two north poles! A win win situation, NOT.
Bifilars YES! They have been my best producing coils even the back and forth way I wind them...
I am most pleased to see you do the experiments... seein g is believing.
Take Care,
Ron
Quote from: minde4000 on July 25, 2009, 10:51:56 AM
Because I care that each wire will go side by side without gaps overlaps or other by guiding both wires while the coil spin on the winding jig (drill mounted sideways with variac). I do not wind @1000rpm+ . I care about coil perfomance efficiency and capacistance.
Minde
M
HAVE YOU POSTED A PHOTO OF YOUR WINDING MACHINE HERE YET?
T
Quote from: CRANKYpants on July 25, 2009, 11:58:36 AM
HAVE YOU POSTED A PHOTO OF YOUR WINDING MACHINE HERE YET?
T
It might be somewhere in a background. I wind bifilars using drill and variac like most ppl because that machine is for single wire and + it sux. Now I wish my inner was wound all the way and not 2/3rds 55 ohms only.
Anyone know where to buy I core bobbins?
Minde
Quote from: Kator01 on July 25, 2009, 12:43:32 PM
Hello minde,
There is a proof that this is exactly the way the fields develop because you and thane reported repeatedly the "eery sound", sort of a hammering-sound occuring if the center-coil is shorted
Regrads
Kator01
The only time I was talking about the sound when I had I core not E core ;D but that does not mean that you all are not right about poles. I will try to find I core bobbins.
Minde
Hello,
QuoteSO FAR THIS HAS ONLY BEEN OBSERVED WITH "I" CORES.
BELIEVING IS SEEING...
in an old german physics-textbook I have found the explanantion why this occurs especially in a I-Core because of its two open ends.
The relevant paragraph deals with the old spark-inductor-design in which the stored E_mag is instantly available if the current is cut off. It is much faster than in an E-core where there is a closed fluxpath most of the time.
E_mag-field-strength near the opend ends ( in air) is a thousand times bigger than in the core ( permeability) and is much faster converted to the high voltage in the secondary coil of the spark-inductor because of this fact.. ( knowledge dated back at least to 1910 ).
The I-core is obliged to hammer stronger
Regards
Kator01
PS : I do not prefer to believe but I read old textbooks to understand the basics before I build and start experimenting.. so : not much new things under the sun.
All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
- Arthur Schopenhaur
Quote from: Kator01 on July 25, 2009, 08:25:58 PM
Hello,
in an old german physics-textbook I have found the explanantion why this occurs especially in a I-Core because of its two open ends. The relevant paragraph deals with the old spark-inductor-design in which the stored E_mag is instantly available if the current is cut off. It is much faster than in an E-core where there is a closed fluxpath most of the time.
Regards
Kator01
I THOUGHT IT HAPPENED IN E CORES WHEN THE SOUTH POLES CLANG TOGETHER?
ANYWAY, TRY AGAIN - ONLY CLOSED ENDS HERE... AND CLOSED FLUX PATH...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3JVjbXOssQ&feature=channel_page
HOWEVER THIS IS VERY USEFUL ~ " the stored E_mag is instantly available [WHEN] the current is cut off" AND THE CURRENT IS "CUT OFF" OR ZERO WHEN THE MAGNET IS TOP DEAD CENTRE - JUST PRIOR TO THE ROTOR MAGNET MOVING AWAY.
CAN YOU SUPPLY US WITH THE TEXT EITHER AS A SCAN OR PHOTO?
T
I have spent my whole Saturday at making purchases and working on this thing.
Hour after hour, coils were wound, mounted and finally the time come for some tests.
Coil specs: black 45 ohm @ 24 awg and yellow 50 ohms @ 24 agw. Around 1 kilogram each.
First impressions.
****************
At 2000 rpm rotor speed, black coil in series connected mode had shorted 0.13 Amp to my dissapointment, only 670 volts. The other one some same figures.
When shorted there is accelaration - rotor tops 2020 rpm but till there.
I used step down transformer 1:6 and mounted a lightbulb. Decelaration kicked in no matter what.
Neither the rotor hammering thing i heard. ANyway...
Rewiring the coils
....................................
I rewired the coils towards parallel connections and have done almost any conceivable combination.
One thing to note is that i get the SAME amount of accelaration no matter how they are wired. Parallel or series each one , and series connecting the two coils or parallel. (btw i finally burned my DMM with some 1400 vac!)
Charging caps
....................
I made a draft cap bank of 2 x 260uf @ 420 volts electrolytic caps and applied them after bridge.
In some 3 secs bank is filled till maximum voltage. By calculating power, i find some 15 watts but for that brief period of time but decellaration kicks in.
The weird thing
.....................
It seems my system behaves weirdly in contrast to yours. When hand-turned (yes hand spin) to some 150-200 rpm) and when shorted, rotor has minimal drag almost as open circuit. If i apply a 12 volt bulb when hand-turned, the drag becomes maximum! Difficult to turn.
WTF?
Do not say, accelaration etc, since 150-200 rpm are ridiculus values for accelaration effects. I am very confident I am dealing with something else that does not likes to be go through any load.
Anyway, some more tests today without a DMM :)
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: baroutologos on July 26, 2009, 01:22:01 AM
It seems my system behaves weirdly in contrast to yours. When hand-turned (yes hand spin) to some 150-200 rpm) and when shorted, rotor has minimal drag almost as open circuit. If i apply a 12 volt bulb when hand-turned, the drag becomes maximum! Difficult to turn.
WTF?
Do not say, accelaration etc, since 150-200 rpm are ridiculus values for accelaration effects. I am very confident I am dealing with something else that does not likes to be go through any load.
Regards,
Baroutologos
The higher the ohm value of your load the more power it will draw (up to certain point of course). Short is less ohm than light bulb. If I leave coil short it decelerates much faster than open circuit but if I leave bulbs on is stops very fast. For
test almost max voltage across your load can be reached by hand turn so you can always verify that without the need to power up your system and reach high speeds (great bulb saver method :D ) to see if you are not overpowering your bulbs.
Minde
Hi Minde,
You say same things with other way. In 100 rpm ranged, normally this generator should behave as a conventional lenz' one and at short should exhibit the maximum drag. I know from my PMDC motor. If i connect the leads and try to hand spin it, whole glory of Lenz and his law appears before you. :)
So normally it should not be the case when loaded with a buld that restrains current and so Lenz's drag is lesser.
Unfortunately or not , this is not the case.
Our systems just hate resistance. No matter what the rpm. Just hate it. By going high voltage you can somehow offset resistance's drag, but again the problem is there.
.........................................
Secondly, and contrary to Mr T's beliefs is that my system accelarates or works low ohm - low voltage/high current or just the opposite.
The HV coil is just not needed for achieveing accelaration. The amounts of windings and magnet frequency over core is critical, not the HV coil configuration. Actually i connect my windings parallel and after that the two coils again in parallel (adding amperage) and still have the same accelaration or more.
We have seriously to rethink what causes accelaration and how to exploit the output.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Damn, you are right Mr Toad.
By the way i doubled checked my results and my claims are valid. Parallel connected windings and coils give 6.5 ohms resistance some 300 volts & 0.6 Amps @ 2080 rpm - and give same accelaration that give both coils shorted with series connected windings (each coil on its own)
The question is: Now what?
Will you tell us Mr hoapToad how to fully exploit the potential of the phenomenon. Perhaps caps pulsing?
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: baroutologos on July 26, 2009, 01:22:01 AM
(btw i finally burned my DMM with some 1400 vac!)
Anyway, some more tests today without a DMM :)
Regards,
Baroutologos
You 'had' a good meter there!
the smoke came out of mine at only 900 volts, lol
Ron
I conducted another experiment. This one was proposed by Mr T.
I mounted on my rotor an brand new, 16AWG coil, some 0.3 ohms @ 2,6 mH.
The coil, effectively at 2000+ rpm is a break. It behaves as a break. It gets hot also. Lenz is the man here. Period.
This coil has some 150-200 turns. (rough estimate)
After the confirmation of our old known pal (Lenz and his Law) i concluded that windings make the difference! (assuming all else constant)
No matter how windings are physically arranged.
* It could be single wire or
* Multiple wires - parallel wound / series connected or parallel wound / parallel connected
Nevertheless number of windings makes the difference between accelaration and drag when the coil is shorted.
Regards,
Baroutologos
You get acceleration at low ohms? I had awg 27 bifilar inner E core coil with 42 ohms and it did not accelerate. Same coil same wire with 60 ohms was totally different story. Also I have 8 ohms awg 22 bifilar inner wich also did not a accelerate even at short.
EDIT: what happens if you draw lets say 40 w out your hc coil? Still accelerates? Also bart how can you get results at low rpm with relatively weak magnets and low frequency?
Minde
@baroutologos
A few questions and some observations.
1) Please explain how the coil is wound over the core. You have a square core but is the coil wound on a round spool.Usually the square core will have just a thin paper on it then the coil is wound directly to have it right against the core. If you are using a round spool to wind the coil, then you will definitely not have the best transfer potential or get back the best repulse potential to accelerate the rotor. The coil has to be wound right onto the core with only a paper in between.
Regarding drag that you feel when turning the rotor by hand, don't forget that you are working at the outer edge of the rotor wheel, farthest away from the motor shaft. The farther you go, the more the actual drag will effect the motor because you have more and more leverage playing against the motor torque. Let's say you have a drag of 1 at the magnet/core/coil. Well this will be translated to maybe a drag of 10 on the motor shaft. Just a little drag on the outer wheel will become great drag on the shaft. I am using figurative numbers just to get the point across.
Now the leverage condition that I just mentioned above works both ways. A drag of 1 will create a drag of 10 on the shaft, but inversely, a good repulse of 1 coming from the coil with be a forward motion strength of 10 on the motor shaft. THAT IS WHY THANE CAN GET SOME ACCELERATION. He is using the leverage to his advantage.
Also your magnets are very far apart compared to Thanes magnets which are almost one next to the other. So Thanes rotor is keeping a semi-charged state on the coil at all times with the same short TDC peaks that you are having, but your wider magnet spacing means that you are going right down to a real zero then to TDC (let's say TDC is a value of 10) whereas Thanes is going from a constant of (let's say) 4 or 5 to TDC. His reaction time is much quicker since he has less extreme to overcome.
Now reaction time and constant reaction is very important again because you are working on the outer edge of the wheel and the intent is to make the center shaft turn faster via the outer edge.
When you have just a motor shaft turning at let's 1000 rpm, it is turning at let's say 100 miles per hour. How faster is it turning on the outer edge of the wheel. It is still turning at 1000 rpm but the actual speed travel would be maybe 1000 miles per hour. So to accelerate the wheel from the outer edge that is connected to the shaft, you need to work maybe 10 times faster. But in order to work 10 times faster, you will most likely need more magnets on the rotor wheel. So your tests mean a great deal to me.
2) The question of your testing series and parallel of the coil. Did you notice any change in the temperature of the coil between these connection modes.
No build is a bad build if it helps increase the knowledge base of the wanted effect regardless if the effect is happening or not.
What to try next?
This may sound crazy but since you have two coils that are distanced to be in front of let's say magnet 1 and 3, I would consider putting the first coil at magnet 1 and the second coil between magnet 2 and 3. This will double you reaction time of the coils. As one coil repulses the other is already charged. This will bring up your extreme from a now real zero to 10 to maybe 3 or 4 to 10.
Good work and thanks for sharing your results.
@Minde,
When i say low ohms, i mean the biffilar windings connected in parallel. That is, i made a coil of 24AWG @ 45 (black) and 50 ohms (yellow better wound). This is a lot of wire 1 kgr (chekc scale photo). Each winding has some 25ohm resistance.
Series connecting them
..................................
Both windings series connetced go to 50 ohms. What i term accelaration is the rpm increase from 2000 unshorted to 2100 shorted (rough values) - no drag anyway. And at 2500 rpm unshorted goes to 2600 - shorted both coils.
Parallel connected
...............................
If i parallel connect the windings of each coil they exhibit some 12,5 ohms resistance. When shorted at same rpm, accelaration is just the SAME.
I even connected that way the two coils in parallel! They gave me a combined resistance of 6.5 ohms and guess what.... same accelaration.
The accelaration Minde, minifests with the amount of turns, rather than the ohmage of windings. It requires a considerable number of turns. If few turns employed, then drag!
Output
.............................
The output is not even there unfortunately. Via a step down transformer i could take out max 5 watts. By directing applying a bulb to HV coils 2watt bulb 0.2 A drag kicks in. So far the most efficient way to draw power (with drag) is via caps. see my comments on cap bank. By it charges real fast so could not say much.
@Wattup,
No wattup, my cores are rectangular and the spools are rectangular also to fit that core. As transformers are. Coils are normal wound bi-ffilar. (not even as neat as Minde :) ) By the way i am familiar with Bedini cooling effect. I cannot really claim any temp difference.
Thinking wtf to do next...
@Minde's edit: Just have not a clue...
Regards,
Baroutologos
Thane,
the textbook is in german. A scan cannot be translated via an translator-robot.
I have to translate it and you all here have to trust me that this is an exact translation. It will take some time because I am very busy otherwise
Concernig the E-Core :
Minde was mentioning the eery sound in his video using the E-core.
I will not go into any further arguments here if this is occuring in this or that type of core because I am in a weak position of not having this perepiteia set-up.
All I try is to understand what is going on by every persons experience here ( not only one ) and combining the physics-knowledge I have about fast changing fields.
As I understand it : If in an E-Core a situation occurs ( as I_ron has shown ) with the center-core becoming S opposing the South of the magnet, there is definitly no closed flux-path possible. The flux is partly open because the opposing flux-lines in the middle move away from each other- some of them entering on the left and right the north-poles of the adjacent magnets. This ends up in a very asymetric field-distribution the effect of which is difficult to estimate.
Now, an open fluxpath is a very interesting condition for zpe entering a technical system. Years ago this condition was discussed among some professionals in regard to free energy-devices but unfortunately I lost track on this subject.
The simple and logical consequence concernig this would be to find a way to measure the polarity by a hall-device embedded in the center-core.
Regards
Kator01
Quote from: Kator01 on July 26, 2009, 08:54:39 PM
Now, an open fluxpath is a very interesting condition for zpe entering a technical system.
Indeed!
@baroutologos
OK, are your two coils aligned so the magnets hit both coils at the same time?
If yes, then place the coils so that when one coil is aligned with a magnet, the other coil is in between the magnets. This will double your repulse speed for the acceleration mode.
Quote from: wattsup on July 27, 2009, 08:44:57 AM
@baroutologos
OK, are your two coils aligned so the magnets hit both coils at the same time?
If yes, then place the coils so that when one coil is aligned with a magnet, the other coil is in between the magnets. This will double your repulse speed for the acceleration mode.
Fuzzy thinking here wattsup, if the "acceleration mode" is expressed as vectors then the total input to the system is the same regardless if the the two vectors are simultaneous or separated.
But what is not shown is whether or not these are inputs as no baseline number is given for the rotor with no core, compared to rotor with cores.
Ron
Quote from: i_ron on July 27, 2009, 10:41:57 AM
Fuzzy thinking here wattsup, if the "acceleration mode" is expressed as vectors then the total input to the system is the same regardless if the the two vectors are simultaneous or separated.
But what is not shown is whether or not these are inputs as no baseline number is given for the rotor with no core, compared to rotor with cores.
Ron
I do not think it is the same at all. Making two repulses at the same time spread by the actual wide distance of the magnets.
@TH has already shown acceleration with only one coil. @TH has twice as many magnets as @baroutologos. For @baroutologos, a simple offset of one of the coils to be between the magnets while the other is on the magnets would be the equivalent of him doubling his magnets. This whole thing is a question of timing. That's why acceleration only happens at a certain rpm levels. In the case of @baroutologos his magnet spread also spread the cadence or persistence of his repulses that have to be faster at a given rpm.
@wattup,
I have not try that, but the concept is to create a closed magnetic flux circuit between the two coils (one facing north the other south) and thus enhaced individual coil's output.
I have created an totally arbitrary value of mine for calculating "strength" of a coil in creating current.
** My own coeffiicient is a product of current of shorted coil (my current setup is 0.13 A) with voltage at open (700 vac for series connected) so this coeffcient is 700 * 0.13 = 91
I have totally empirically concluded that i can increase current at short and lower voltage -previous setup (0.27A @ 350vac+-) but the "coefficient is more or less the same at given RPM.
This coefficient was considerably increased by just closing down the magnetic flux path.
@I_Ron
I totally understand what you say. My setup at 1450-1500 rpm consumes 28 watts without any coil/core present. The dual coils arranged simultaneously on two magnets in the same more or less RPM consume +7 watts of power. But in higher rpm, say 2500 the additional input is somewhere 5 watts. I have not being able so far to draw consinstelny 7 watts power from the coils + so to offeset the power drop at first place, but i feel i am close to that.
Thats's all for now,
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: wattsup on July 27, 2009, 01:51:31 PM
I do not think it is the same at all. Making two repulses at the same time spread by the actual wide distance of the magnets.
Afraid you will have to show me your evidence for the repulse...
Ron
AND FOR ANY BI-TOROID REPLICATORS OUT THERE...
A NEW PROTOTYPE.
T
@Wattup,
I like too to theorize man, but in the end, experiments, observations and facts should follow. :)
I have 12 magnets not half than Mr T's rotor. (18 magnets) You must bear in mind that accelaration is happening above some critical rpm and has not upper limit as i view it.
Actually it is only restricted by prime mover ability to produce rpm.
Secondly: It is proven beyond doubt that the accelaration effect is not accelaration at all. I am afraid i have to bitter mr T but this is my understanding so far. No mechanical energy is added to rotor.
In induction motor it seems like quite an accelaration because the motor suxs in torque terms, and a slight un-loading of the rotor, seems as rocket-launch!
Actually, in mechanical terms, in accelaration mode, the coils remain an obstacle to rotor's free running state, although quite much less than unshorted state.
To have a Lenz-less generator is one thing and to have a self-excited motor is another. No self excitation in my setup at any rpm level (till 3000+)
Actually this "bold" statement of mine can be easily verified by viewing anyone's setup (including Mr T's) or falsified if someone can achieved higher rpm from shorted coils in accelaration mode than motor's free run WITHOUT any coil around. (not the case so far)
Still better, If anyone can make a sustainable self-rotated motor operated solely by HV coils in accelaration mode then i will be more than happy to be wrong.
By the way, the best way to get a good understanding of Perepiteia is to built one with many coils at Mr'T's specs. Then we talk about again those issues.
My view about its usefuleness
...............................................
The very fact that produces some electricity without kick-in Lenz's drag is very promising to me.
I read about a generator that claim same thing. That when shorted it shows no heating or even accelarates. - Kromrey's converter - check patent if you wish.
By gathering information from various researchers (as Bedini) about it, it is said that this kind of machines could performed OU if "tuned" to the load. Tunning happens via rpm control.
To my underastanding so far- tunning to the load is to just have a sufficient rpm to power a given load and not exhibit Lenz's drag.
By the way, if OU is the required issue we must make such an appropriate setup, so as Perepiteia to free run at minimum wattage (600 watts for open coils - no power output is HUGE) . Rotoverter is of great use here.
My next steps
..........................................
Enough said. This is my orientation for now. Next step is to make some new coils multistranded so as to increase amperage without stepping down using transformers, while maintaing some usefull voltage. (say 100vac)
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: baroutologos on July 28, 2009, 03:01:08 AM
snip..
Secondly: It is proven beyond doubt that the accelaration effect is not accelaration at all. I am afraid i have to bitter mr T but this is my understanding so far. No mechanical energy is added to rotor.
snip..
KneeDeep ;)
Cheers
Quote from: baroutologos on July 28, 2009, 03:01:08 AM
Snip...
My view about its usefuleness
...............................................
The very fact that produces some electricity without kick-in Lenz's drag is very promising to me.
Snip...
Regards,
Baroutologos
Promising indeed!
That's why I continue to follow people's progress. Good work and good luck
Cheers
Quote from: baroutologos on July 28, 2009, 03:01:08 AM
@Wattup,
Secondly: It is proven beyond doubt that the accelaration effect is not accelaration at all. I am afraid i have to bitter mr T but this is my understanding so far. No mechanical energy is added to rotor.
In induction motor it seems like quite an accelaration because the motor suxs in torque terms, and a slight un-loading of the rotor, seems as rocket-launch!
Actually, in mechanical terms, in accelaration mode, the coils remain an obstacle to rotor's free running state, although quite much less than unshorted state.
To have a Lenz-less generator is one thing and to have a self-excited motor is another. No self excitation in my setup at any rpm level (till 3000+)
Actually this "bold" statement of mine can be easily verified by viewing anyone's setup (including Mr T's) or falsified if someone can achieved higher rpm from shorted coils in accelaration mode than motor's free run WITHOUT any coil around. (not the case so far)
Regards,
Baroutologos
HERE ON PAGE 28:
YAHOO ID: undernudity@yahoo.ca
PASSWORD: abc123
FIND:
Table 1.0 Split Phase Motor Cogging Torque Tests
1 â€" 2) Coil OrientationThe above tests were performed with a split phase motor to determine cogging torque in the system. It is evident that with the current core material and air gap and magnet strength â€" there is minimal cogging torque present because the power required to turn the rotor is the same (106 watts) with the rotor decoupled (away from coils) and coupled (facing coils) â€" Tests # 1 and 2 respectively.
3) Loaded High Current Coil â€" Conventional Generator â€" DECELERATION According to Lenz’s Law When the high current coils are loaded through an incandescent light bulb (test # 3) the system speed decreases and the prime mover draws more power â€" an increase to 111 watts from 106. This represents a conventional generating system.
4) Loaded High Current Coil and Loaded High Voltage Coil â€" NEUTRALIZATION of Lenz’s Law Effects When the high voltage coils are engaged â€" there is more power is delivered through the high current coils to the light bulb â€" but the deceleration and increased power draw is compensated by the high voltage coils acceleration and the power consumed by the prime mover is 105.9 watts (slight meter error).
5) Loaded High Voltage Coils - ACCELERATIONWhen only the high voltage coils are employed to light the LED’s the system accelerates beyond the no load starting point and requires 3 less watts to do so @ 103 w.
T
Mr T,
referring to your post
#422 and
426 concerning the Bi-Toroid-Transformer :
QuoteThe Bi-Toroid Transformer is designed to convert Reactive Power to Real Power.
In oder to get correct numbers for the "real input" into the primary to drive the "reactive power" plus the "real power-part" within the primary all the energy must be taken into account which is the sum of
1) necessary amount of "real energy" to keep up the reactive power
2) necessary amount of energy to keep up the real-power part ( x cosinus phi )
which is called - if I am correct here with the english term - "apparent power"
it is an illusion to assume that driving the reactive power in the primary is for free and thus only comparing the small "real-power-in" part ( x cos phi) with the "real power output" in the secondary.
It needs real power from the grid to drive reactive power in the primary and this is the reason why - and I only can speak for germany here - the reactive input-power must be paid for also.
Now in order to get correct numbers to compare "real-input" to "real output" we need another non-grid-based setup for driving the primary of the BTT.
In a first attempt I would suggest using a step-up tranformer ( 12 to 120 V for the US or Canada ?, 12 to 230 V for Europe ) driven by a 12 Volt Battery and comparing the real DC-Input into the inverter in idle mode and with the BBT attached having no 20 Ohm-load attached to the secondary.
This would give an impression of what is really taking place here.
I have to confess that I do not have a good feeling to use an inverter for this
because of the higher frequency-pulses ( 100 KHz ) which are hard to eliminate even at the battery-terminals they might be present.
Therefore I am thinking along other lines. I suggest a wien-bridge driven Oscillator at 50 or 60 Hz with a push-pull-output-stage. Here you can exactly measure the input-currents dc-wise entering the two driver-transistors.
Best Regards
Kator01
I am in no possition to validate or invalidate those claims Mr T, besides i am not interested in doing so.
Just curious, in your case, no watts consumed by coils near rotor from cogging torque?? Anyway, the 106 watts free motor running without the cores/coils around and 103 watts with shorted accelarating HV coils is something extra-ordinary that can possibly happen in sophisticated, quite advanced, excellent made systems i suppose. Definetely not mine :)
if that true then you possible can demonstrate an self-running rotor?
..............................................
I cannot even think for now how can i obtain more rpms with shorted coils than plain freewheeling of the rotor at same power rates.
Nevertheless, always my orientation was in achieving maximum power out for having to pay the energy for spinning magnets past coils at adjustable rpm values. Explicit OU is the goal.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: CRANKYpants on July 28, 2009, 07:13:44 AM
HERE ON PAGE 28:
T
I can get to yahoo...? but where is the test?
Ron
Quote from: baroutologos on July 27, 2009, 02:03:31 PM
@I_Ron
I totally understand what you say. My setup at 1450-1500 rpm consumes 28 watts without any coil/core present. The dual coils arranged simultaneously on two magnets in the same more or less RPM consume +7 watts of power. But in higher rpm, say 2500 the additional input is somewhere 5 watts. I have not being able so far to draw consinstelny 7 watts power from the coils + so to offeset the power drop at first place, but i feel i am close to that.
Thats's all for now,
Regards,
Baroutologos
That is certainly a change from some of your previous posts where I should F off! I guess an apology will be next?
Interesting that we are now on the same page. Interesting too, that the other builders have suddenly gone so quiet?
But the controversy could easily be solved if Thane would post some believable numbers that could be replicated by others. Video proof, is in the end, no proof.
Take care,
Ron
So let's see. Thane how about hooking a 1:20 transformer to the secondaries followed by a full wave bridge rectifier, followed by an inverter. Since the power is low all the losses are almost negligible and thus that 400% you measure can be easily looped like this.
Quote from: baroutologos on July 28, 2009, 08:08:01 AM
I am in no possition to validate or invalidate those claims Mr T, besides i am not interested in doing so.
Just curious, in your case, no watts consumed by coils near rotor from cogging torque?? Anyway, the 106 watts free motor running without the cores/coils around and 103 watts with shorted accelarating HV coils is something extra-ordinary that can possibly happen in sophisticated, quite advanced, excellent made systems i suppose. Definetely not mine :)
if that true then you possible can demonstrate an self-running rotor?
..............................................
I cannot even think for now how can i obtain more rpms with shorted coils than plain freewheeling of the rotor at same power rates.
Nevertheless, always my orientation was in achieving maximum power out for having to pay the energy for spinning magnets past coils at adjustable rpm values. Explicit OU is the goal.
Regards,
Baroutologos
I am with you on your post as far as I have gone. Cogging torque seems to be the only problem here in slowing down the system and consuming power. If T is correct properly build system should literally be accelerating? I mentioned before that this accelerations in my particular case was just a only partial relief of coggin not 100%. But to achieve that "relief" or "acceleration" you STILL need some source of energy or in other words repulsing field at some moment? If he has more or less properly tuned/matched system proper coils cores awg gaps magnets and etc. its possible that kick back could overcome cogging? But - I didnt get that far to confirm all this.
I would love to have a system able to overcome cogging.
Minde
@ I_Ron,
I am sorry I_ron.. Know that there is nothing personal, could not be anyway. We have an ocean bewteen us.. :)
My apology is stated clearly for decent manner reasons. I do not need your advice neither your skills in any way.
I am feel that i over-reacted, back then, but the whole thread was about non-constructive talks, offensive wording etc.
Anyway, past is past.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Cogging is hardly a loss in a system.
Ok, it costs energy to get out of the gripping field of a magnet. But you get that spend energy back by the next cycle where the magnet attracts. Like cycling up a hill, it cost you much effort, but once over the top you enjoy an effortless ride downhill. So net losses due to cogging are minimal.
But if you want to reduce cogging you optimize your stator numbers to magnet numbers. Like 20 magnets and 21 cores. With the right layout it balances the cogging to nearly zero. Loot at the work of Muller:
http://www.nrjrealiste.fr/elec/neogen01.jpg (http://www.nrjrealiste.fr/elec/neogen01.jpg)
http://www.nrjrealiste.fr/elec/neogen02.jpg (http://www.nrjrealiste.fr/elec/neogen02.jpg)
http://fenykapu.free-energy.hu/pajert/index.htm?FoAblak=../pajert36/NeoGMagy.html (http://fenykapu.free-energy.hu/pajert/index.htm?FoAblak=../pajert36/NeoGMagy.html)
In the specific case of @baroutologos, by offsetting the coils and removing that c core laminate connection, he will double the working frequency and half the cogging.
Quote from: Nali2001 on July 28, 2009, 02:39:41 PM
Cogging is hardly a loss in a system.
Ok, it costs energy to get out of the gripping field of a magnet. But you get that spend energy back by the next cycle where the magnet attracts. Like cycling up a hill, it cost you much effort, but once over the top you enjoy an effortless ride downhill. So net losses due to cogging are minimal.
But if you want to reduce cogging you optimize your stator numbers to magnet numbers. Like 20 magnets and 21 cores. With the right layout it balances the cogging to nearly zero. Loot at the work of Muller:
http://www.nrjrealiste.fr/elec/neogen01.jpg (http://www.nrjrealiste.fr/elec/neogen01.jpg)
http://www.nrjrealiste.fr/elec/neogen02.jpg (http://www.nrjrealiste.fr/elec/neogen02.jpg)
http://fenykapu.free-energy.hu/pajert/index.htm?FoAblak=../pajert36/NeoGMagy.html (http://fenykapu.free-energy.hu/pajert/index.htm?FoAblak=../pajert36/NeoGMagy.html)
THANK YOU STEVEN FOR THIS INFO...!
FINALLY SOME SENSE.
IN A CORECTLY DESIGNED SYSTEM COGGING TORQUE CAN BE REDUCED TO ZERO. :D
@ MINDE...
IF YOU PLACE YOUR COIL(S) ON A RAIL AND THE CALIFORNIA DUDES ARE DOING AND THEY ARE IN ACCELERATING MODE AND WHEN YOUR ROTOR IS UP TO SPEED YOU GRADUALLY BRING YOUR COILS INTO POSITION -
PRODUCING POWER AND ACCELERATION - YOU ARE DONE!
CHEERS
T
Quote from: baroutologos on July 28, 2009, 02:08:53 PM
@ I_Ron,
I am sorry I_ron.. Know that there is nothing personal, could not be anyway. We have an ocean bewteen us.. :)
My apology is stated clearly for decent manner reasons.
Anyway, past is past.
Regards,
Baroutologos
I accept that and please accept my apologies for even mentioning it.
Regards,
Ron
Quote from: Nali2001 on July 28, 2009, 02:39:41 PM
Cogging is hardly a loss in a system.
Ok, it costs energy to get out of the gripping field of a magnet. But you get that spend energy back by the next cycle where the magnet attracts. Like cycling up a hill, it cost you much effort, but once over the top you enjoy an effortless ride downhill. So net losses due to cogging are minimal.
But if you want to reduce cogging you optimize your stator numbers to magnet numbers. Like 20 magnets and 21 cores. With the right layout it balances the cogging to nearly zero. Loot at the work of Muller:
http://www.nrjrealiste.fr/elec/neogen01.jpg (http://www.nrjrealiste.fr/elec/neogen01.jpg)
http://www.nrjrealiste.fr/elec/neogen02.jpg (http://www.nrjrealiste.fr/elec/neogen02.jpg)
http://fenykapu.free-energy.hu/pajert/index.htm?FoAblak=../pajert36/NeoGMagy.html (http://fenykapu.free-energy.hu/pajert/index.htm?FoAblak=../pajert36/NeoGMagy.html)
Yes very interesting 22.5 and 24 degrees doing an eclipse technique.
To bad there is no English link.
@all
Here is an observation on round or square laminates and magnets.
If you really consider them, the round core/magnet is very disadvantaged because all the laminates will be covered only for a fraction of the total travel through. There is only one moment when all the laminates are covered because of the round surface area. Like an eclipse. The TDC is the only time there is full coverage.
The square core/magnet will hit all laminates throughout the pass through. 100% coverage per pass. There is full coverage plus the TDC plus the greater surface area. Big difference.
Any thoughts?????????
Quote from: Nali2001 on July 28, 2009, 02:39:41 PM
Cogging is hardly a loss in a system.
Ok, it costs energy to get out of the gripping field of a magnet. But you get that spend energy back by the next cycle where the magnet attracts. Like cycling up a hill, it cost you much effort, but once over the top you enjoy an effortless ride downhill. So net losses due to cogging are minimal.
Today I have finished yet another coil: I core awg 27 bifilar 70 ohms (22 layers). Did few runs but need to do much more. This coil begins to produce heat if left open circuit high rpm (wtf). Cogging torque is the main loss in my system and kind of significant (as you can see below). Shorted or loaded coil is trying to compensate but could never reach free spin efficiency altho I still dont have real time adjustable gap system for fine tunning. Thane said he did reach this and even beyond with power production while maintaining free spin power consumption so I still have way to go. Here are few numbers to compare:
100 VAC RPM Amps
Free spin rotor : 3450 3.66
Coil added open circuit: 3343 4.95
Coil short : 3424 3.78
16W output : 3411 4.00
EDIT: I will post few oscilloscope shots of it tommorow to see how the waves look like in loaded coil
Regards Minde
Quote from: Nali2001 on July 28, 2009, 02:39:41 PM
Cogging is hardly a loss in a system.
Ok, it costs energy to get out of the gripping field of a magnet. But you get that spend energy back by the next cycle where the magnet attracts. Like cycling up a hill, it cost you much effort, but once over the top you enjoy an effortless ride downhill. So net losses due to cogging are minimal.
Steven, this is a great simplification that may have some small merit factor.
But it ignores the main core losses of eddy and hysteresis losses. There is no avoiding these losses by staggering the core magnet ratio.
Each core has an associated loss and these losses are directly additive.
The only core that has no core loss is an air cored coil.
Baroutologos, Minde, and myself have all published our numbers that show core loss is present.
Regards,
Ron
Hello,
It is said, repetition is the mother of knowledge! :P
In this thread it has been mentioned more than 10 times so far by me and others that odd-even magnet/coil configuration lessens considerably cogging torque. (i am familiar with Muller's work)
In order to make it zero you almost need an considerable number of odd/even elements. By the way some residual cogging torque will remain. Pretty simple, nothing more to add about it.
@wattup,
i totally comprehend what you say. For the time being i am not concerned about cogging torque. it costs me some 7 watts @ 1500 rpm and less in higher rpm (including eddie/hysteresis losses) and that's it.
I stay with the improvised U core BECAUSE it closes down the magnetic flux path. This increases performance of the coils (i will present some numbers about that) or to put in another words, Power out.
Plans
.....................
If you have followed me, i plan sometime at implementing up to 5 x U cores, arranged at even/odd configuration. Effectively each core U core (composed of two coils) will count as one, in cogging torque terms, so by having 5 of them odd/even arranged, per average the cogging losses will come down. (or even in comparison to single U core as it is now)
Current activities
......................
I am focused at the moment at making coils that way so as to maintain same turns and producing lower volt and much amperage.
My next step is to wound the coils with 10 x strands (ohh, yes) of 29 awg at some 400 turns (300 gr of wire or 120 ohms). I am of Bedini school, so type of wire is mundanly used so its something relatively easy to make (although too much labour!)
Each coil will give a 1.2 ohm combined resistance and lowest possible impedance.
If it works and does not Lenzes... (new term i.e. doe not create drag at short) then we would know if impedance is the principle factor for sure.
So far my indications suggest that impedance and voltage are NOT the accelarating factor contrary to Mr T's beliefs. Since i achieve same accelaration with parallel or series windings in my current setup.
We see
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps: Researcher, Aether22 almost a year ago had reached same conclusions. See..
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4047.msg104122#msg104122
To eliminate low rpm cogging things can become tricky. The way I would do it is add another set of magnets all facing the same direction on the other side of the rotor and have a single stator magnet which is in repulsion with them. You then adjust the distance betweem them to cancel out the attraction-attraction on the other side on the core. This can be tricky to tune and even end up costly though.
Quote from: minde4000 on July 28, 2009, 11:43:18 PM
Shorted or loaded coil is trying to compensate but could never reach free spin efficiency altho I still dont have real time adjustable gap system for fine tunning. Thane said he did reach this and even beyond with power production while maintaining free spin power consumption so I still have way to go. Here are few numbers to compare:
Regards Minde
IF YOU WANT TO RE-CREATE THAT TEST YOU WILL NEED A 4 POLE MOTOR NOT A 2 POLE MOTOR AS YOU ARE CURRENTLY USING. THE 4 POLE MOTOR HAS A MORE EVEN TORQUE DISTRIBUTION SO COGGING HAS LESS EFFECT.
THAT BEING SAID - YOU SHOULD BE AWARE THAT ALL THIS TALK ABOUT CORE LOSSES - COGGING ETC. IS SIMPLY A SMOKE SCREEN PUT UP BY DISINGENUOUS (SLEAZY) PEOPLE (WHO ALREADY KNOW BETTER - BUT PRETEND NOT TO) - AND UNLESS ONE IS CREATING AN AIR CORE GENERATOR - IT HAS NO RELEVANCE AND IS ONLY DESIGNED TO MAKE YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE WASTE TIME AND EFFORT.
COGGING TORQUE CAN BE REDUCED OR ELIMINATED BY PROPER COIL SPACING.
EDDY CURRENT LOSSES - HYSTERESIS LOSSES BY BETTER AND LARGER CORES
(CURRENTLY WE ARE USING M6 MATERIAL - WHICH IS RELATIVELY CHEAP - M1 OR M0 IS IDEAL).LEAVE THE GENERATOR COMPONENT SELECTION AND DESIGN SPECS TO THE PEOPLE WHO ALREADY KNOW HOW TO DO THAT - BUT DON'T YET KNOW HOW TO CREATE A COIL THAT PRODUCES POWER AND ACCELERATES UNDER LOAD.
CAN YOU MAKE A CONVENTIONAL COIL (18 GAUGE WIRE) ON ANOTHER BOBBIN :P - SAME CORE AIR GAP ETC. AND SEE WHAT RESULTS YOU GET @ 100 V TO YOUR MOTOR?
MY BET IS - (IF YOU TRY TO EXTRACT 16 WATTS IN CONVENTIONAL MODE) - THE ROTOR WILL VIRTUALLY BE
STOPPED YOUR GENERATOR OUTPUT WILL BE NEAR
ZERO AND YOUR MOTOR POWER CONSUMPTION WILL BE
MAXIMUM.
T
BTW
THANKS FOR THE COIL WINDING 101 LESSONS YOU ARE GIVING EVERYONE HERE! - V-NICE WORK 8)
I have grain oriented silicon MICROSIL .014 laminates. Could you tell me if they are suitable/lossy for this application?
http://www.magmet.com/tapewound/materials2.php
http://www.magmet.com/tapewound/microsil.php
Minde
Quote from: minde4000 on July 29, 2009, 09:00:02 PM
I have grain oriented silicon MICROSIL .014 laminates. Could you tell me if they are suitable/lossy for this application?
http://www.magmet.com/tapewound/materials2.php
http://www.magmet.com/tapewound/microsil.php
Minde
I'M NO MAGNETICS DESIGNER BUT I LIKE THIS ONE...
Square 50 - 50% Ni/Fe/ alloy, (grain oriented). It offers the highest squareness ratio (lowest saturated reactance) and very high gain.
This material has Bm while cores losses are low enough to consider its use in higher frequency applications than the
silicon steels. Applications include bi-stable switching devices, inverter transformers, high performance power magnetic amplifiers, linear current transformers, timing devices, driver transformers, and wherever an extremely square loop material, manufactured to close tolerance, is required.
DON'T LIKE THIS ONE...
Microsil - 3% Si/Fe - Oriented Silicon Iron Alloy. This material is generally used for high power,
relatively low frequency applications in high performance power transformers,
saturable reactors, inverter transformers, magnetic amplifiers (power), current transformers, output transformers, etc. This is the least expensive of the square loop materials and has high maximum flux. The Squareness ratio is lower than for Square 50. The core losses are higher while gain is significantly lower.
AS I SAID EARLIER CORE CHOICE IS REALLY NOT AN ISSUE RIGHT NOW EXCEPT FOR YOUR HEATING PROBLEM WHICH SUGGESTS YOU NEED A HIGHER FREQUENCY CORE MATERIAL.
IT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED ALREADY THAT MORE EFFICIENT - HIGHER GRADE CORES INCREASE OVERALL PERFORMANCE.
DO YOU HAVE THE MATERIAL NAME RATHER THAN JUST THE THICKNESS?
T
Quote from: CRANKYpants on July 29, 2009, 10:22:56 PM
DON'T LIKE THIS ONE...
Microsil - 3% Si/Fe - Oriented Silicon Iron Alloy. This material is generally used for high power, relatively low frequency applications in high performance power transformers, saturable reactors, inverter transformers, magnetic amplifiers (power), current transformers, output transformers, etc. This is the least expensive of the square loop materials and has high maximum flux. The Squareness ratio is lower than for Square 50. The core losses are higher while gain is significantly lower.
AS I SAID EARLIER CORE CHOICE IS REALLY NOT AN ISSUE RIGHT NOW EXCEPT FOR YOUR HEATING PROBLEM WHICH SUGGESTS YOU NEED A HIGHER FREQUENCY CORE MATERIAL.
IT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED ALREADY THAT MORE EFFICIENT - HIGHER GRADE CORES INCREASE OVERALL PERFORMANCE.
DO YOU HAVE THE MATERIAL NAME RATHER THAN JUST THE THICKNESS?
T
Material name is MICROSIL. I am gonna have to replace it with something better. It should yield overall better results than I have now with appearantly high core losses when circuit is open. Would you recommend any other web sites besides magnetic metals?
@Baroutologos
Sorry if I missed in any of your post but what core material are you using?
Minde
Hello Minde,
My coils are I-core elongated from sound equipment. they are 0.3mm, premium quality laminations (claimed) so as to operate without sound distortion at low Khz range. They are rated 500 watts of power.
I am not expert about laminations. But I think its more than fine.
My losses anyway due to cogging torque and eddie/hysteresis etc so far is 7-8 watts for two coils, at low speed range and lower at high speed range. (cogging is the issue not eddies/hysteresis)
Regards,
Baroutologos
Lecturing 101, :)
It has been well observed that accelaration of a passive power-generating coil (when current is allowed to flow through it) can be manifested under certain conditions.
If those conditions are not met, the current flowing creates drag that limits rotation as we all know.
It has also been well observed (not by me so far) that if we have many non-accelarating coils in the same rotor and same phase and connected in series, althouth each one unable to manifest accelaration, all together combined they accelarate just fine.
Perhaps this is another minor issue of great importance to investigate??
Deciphering the patents of old timers
..................................................
If we take a look at the machines and patents of Bedini, Adams, Kromrey, Muller and so on and so forth, we find a consistent pattern.
MANY COILS ARRANGED IN SERIES. We can assume two things.
1) These inventors never happen to perceive the merits of many turns single coil accelaration
or
2) They have concluded that by series connected, lesser turns coils, is the optimum way anyone to go for power out.
I tend to believe, the second approach and this i am gonna pursue after the multi strand experiments.
Of course, cogging will become THE ISSUE there, but as a saying goes, no pain-no gain :P
Your views pls,
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: baroutologos on July 30, 2009, 04:03:15 AM
Lecturing 101, :)
Of course, cogging will become THE ISSUE there, but as a saying goes, no pain-no gain :P
Your views pls,
Regards,
Baroutologos
THE ISSUE IS YOUR HARD HEAD DUDE...
WHAT PART OF "COGGING TORQUE CAN BE REDUCED TO NEAR ZERO IN A PROPERLY CORE SPACED GENERATOR", DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?
FOR ANYONE ELSE... GOOGLE
"REDUCING COGGING TORQUE" AND YOU WILL FIND THAT MANY SOLUTIONS ALREADY EXIST FOR THIS NON-ISSUE.
T
1st PAGE GOOGLE... FOR "REDUCING COGGING TORQUE"
Scholarly articles for reducing cogging torque
Various design techniques to reduce cogging torque by … - Hwang - Cited by 33
Design techniques for reducing the cogging torque in ... - Bianchi - Cited by 116
New technique for reducing cogging torque in a class of … - Ackermann - Cited by 32
Search ResultsResults include your SearchWiki notes for reducing cogging torque. Share these notes
Copy and paste this link into an email or IM:
See a preview of the shared page
Reducing cogging torque in brushless motors | Machine DesignBrushless dc motor windings are similar to the windings in a multiple-phase ac motor.
machinedesign.com/.../reducing-cogging-torque-in-brushless-motors-0601 - Cached - Similar -
Cogging torque - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia13 Mar 2009 ... Almost all the techniques used against cogging torque also reduce the motor back emf and so reduce the resultant running torque. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogging_torque - Cached - Similar -
Effective Methods of Reducing Cogging Torque in Flux Reversal ...6 Nov 2008 ... In this paper, two new methods are proposed to reduce the cogging torque of FRM, Segment Rotor method and Pairing Stator poles along with ...
linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1006706X08602265 - Similar -
by W ZHAO - 2006 - Related articles
[PDF] Cogging Torque Reduction in a Permanent Magnet Wind Turbine ...File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
reduce the cogging torque in a PM generator, because cogging torque affects self-start ability and ... methods have been reported to reduce cogging torque, ...
www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/15000181.../15000181.pdf - Similar -
by E Muljadi - Cited by 4 - Related articles
Various design techniques to reduce cogging torque by controlling ...FE analysis can be effectively utilized to reduce the cogging torque. ... shows an example of reducing cogging torque with an appro- ...
ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/20/20571/00951313.pdf?arnumber... - Similar -
by SM Hwang - 2001 - Cited by 31 - Related articles - All 5 versions
Welcome to IEEE Xplore 2.0: Reducing cogging torque of interior ...Reducing the cogging torque is important for electric bicycle motors. This paper describes a motor configuration for reducing the cogging torque in an ...
ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=1665419 - Similar -
by Y Tomigashi - 2005 - Related articles - All 2 versions
More results from ieeexplore.ieee.org »
Study on Manufacturing Method to Reduce Cogging Torque of Motor ...by reducing cogging torque. The separate core, however, is ..... On the other hand, it is possible to reduce the cogging torque ...
www.springerlink.com/index/h653x3j725517651.pdf - Similar -
by H Akita
Science Links Japan | Design Method for reducing Cogging TorqueTitle;Design Method for reducing Cogging Torque. Author;NATSUMEDA MITSUTOSHI(Neomax Magunettooyokaihatsubu) TAKABAYASHI HIROFUMI(Neomax ...
sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/.../000020051505A0561528.php - Cached - Similar -
by M NATSUMEDA - 2005
Motpor device capable of reducing cogging torque inventionA motor device capable of reducing cogging torque includes a stator assembly and a rotor assembly, which is movably disposed in the stator assembly.
www.freshpatents.com/Motpor-device-capable-of-reducing-cogging-torque-dt20060817ptan20060181164.php - Cached - Similar -
The optimization of pole arc coefficient to reduce cogging torque ...In this paper, the analytical method is first used to reduce the feasible region of pole arc coefficient in which the cogging torque is small. ...
cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17660627 - Similar -
by Y YANG - 2006 - Cited by 8 - Related articles - All 4 versions
Thane can you give your feedback on some of my previous posts.
No need to become aggresive Mr T.
I get a feeling that you all you want is to playing around with magnets and coils, youtube posting, wild theorizing, rotor lusting and not useful output out.
Do you understand fundamental issues? If yes state your purpose. I seek OU, You seek what?
Last and not least i forbid you to threat me like that.
Because i directly invalidate your claims does not mean we cannot be friends.
Beware not to become that you criticise so much.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: CRANKYpants on July 30, 2009, 06:25:22 AM
THE ISSUE IS YOUR HARD HEAD DUDE...
WHAT PART OF "COGGING TORQUE CAN BE REDUCED TO NEAR ZERO IN A PROPERLY CORE SPACED GENERATOR", DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?
FOR ANYONE ELSE... GOOGLE "REDUCING COGGING TORQUE" AND YOU WILL FIND THAT MANY SOLUTIONS ALREADY EXIST FOR THIS NON-ISSUE.
T
1st PAGE GOOGLE... FOR "REDUCING COGGING TORQUE"
Scholarly articles for reducing cogging torque
Various design techniques to reduce cogging torque by … - Hwang - Cited by 33
Design techniques for reducing the cogging torque in ... - Bianchi - Cited by 116
New technique for reducing cogging torque in a class of … - Ackermann - Cited by 32
Search ResultsResults include your SearchWiki notes for reducing cogging torque. Share these notes
Copy and paste this link into an email or IM:
See a preview of the shared page
Reducing cogging torque in brushless motors | Machine DesignBrushless dc motor windings are similar to the windings in a multiple-phase ac motor.
machinedesign.com/.../reducing-cogging-torque-in-brushless-motors-0601 - Cached - Similar -
Cogging torque - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia13 Mar 2009 ... Almost all the techniques used against cogging torque also reduce the motor back emf and so reduce the resultant running torque. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogging_torque - Cached - Similar -
Effective Methods of Reducing Cogging Torque in Flux Reversal ...6 Nov 2008 ... In this paper, two new methods are proposed to reduce the cogging torque of FRM, Segment Rotor method and Pairing Stator poles along with ...
linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1006706X08602265 - Similar -
by W ZHAO - 2006 - Related articles
[PDF] Cogging Torque Reduction in a Permanent Magnet Wind Turbine ...File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
reduce the cogging torque in a PM generator, because cogging torque affects self-start ability and ... methods have been reported to reduce cogging torque, ...
www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/15000181.../15000181.pdf - Similar -
by E Muljadi - Cited by 4 - Related articles
Various design techniques to reduce cogging torque by controlling ...FE analysis can be effectively utilized to reduce the cogging torque. ... shows an example of reducing cogging torque with an appro- ...
ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/20/20571/00951313.pdf?arnumber... - Similar -
by SM Hwang - 2001 - Cited by 31 - Related articles - All 5 versions
Welcome to IEEE Xplore 2.0: Reducing cogging torque of interior ...Reducing the cogging torque is important for electric bicycle motors. This paper describes a motor configuration for reducing the cogging torque in an ...
ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=1665419 - Similar -
by Y Tomigashi - 2005 - Related articles - All 2 versions
More results from ieeexplore.ieee.org »
Study on Manufacturing Method to Reduce Cogging Torque of Motor ...by reducing cogging torque. The separate core, however, is ..... On the other hand, it is possible to reduce the cogging torque ...
www.springerlink.com/index/h653x3j725517651.pdf - Similar -
by H Akita
Science Links Japan | Design Method for reducing Cogging TorqueTitle;Design Method for reducing Cogging Torque. Author;NATSUMEDA MITSUTOSHI(Neomax Magunettooyokaihatsubu) TAKABAYASHI HIROFUMI(Neomax ...
sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/.../000020051505A0561528.php - Cached - Similar -
by M NATSUMEDA - 2005
Motpor device capable of reducing cogging torque inventionA motor device capable of reducing cogging torque includes a stator assembly and a rotor assembly, which is movably disposed in the stator assembly.
www.freshpatents.com/Motpor-device-capable-of-reducing-cogging-torque-dt20060817ptan20060181164.php - Cached - Similar -
The optimization of pole arc coefficient to reduce cogging torque ...In this paper, the analytical method is first used to reduce the feasible region of pole arc coefficient in which the cogging torque is small. ...
cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17660627 - Similar -
by Y YANG - 2006 - Cited by 8 - Related articles - All 4 versions
For such a non-issue, thats a lot of information on how to reduce cogging.
Many researchers/inventors seem to have put in a great amount of research and effort to reduce it.
Any links on how to increase it ? ???
Cheers
Quote from: CRANKYpants on July 30, 2009, 06:25:22 AM
WHAT PART OF "COGGING TORQUE CAN BE REDUCED TO NEAR ZERO IN A PROPERLY CORE SPACED GENERATOR", DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?
FOR ANYONE ELSE... GOOGLE "REDUCING COGGING TORQUE" AND YOU WILL FIND THAT MANY SOLUTIONS ALREADY EXIST FOR THIS NON-ISSUE.
T
All crap and red herrings as usual... our problem is not "cogging torque" this is a term specifically related to continuously cored induction motors where the gap between the laminations causes 'cogging torque'
Use the right term, "core drag" for this prominent problem.
Ron
To cog or not to cog. That is the question. lol
@baroutologos
Don't mind @TH. His style is someimes rough (hey mine can be too) but he is all around OK and trying to help us within his own limitations, as we all.
@all
No one answered my question regarding square versus round coil/magnets but a recent link put up on this thread covered it pretty well. Seems both types have their strong points..
Have not heard from the C-core maker.
I don't think I will be able to spend 8 hours winding a coil so I am looking at any other ready made low cost alternatives.
I have been looking on e-bay for laminated cores and have found a few using the phrase "transformer core".
In the photo below, what if such a transformer was simply (and slowly) cut in half through the laminates right between the coils. It would give two coils with two specs. The primary side has two windings already to go from 110 to 220 vac. The secondary side has more windings but there may be a way of bifilaring the connections.
That link is here.
http://cgi.ebay.com/56W-R-Core-Transformer-110V-200V-for-USB-1798DAC_W0QQitemZ290325387155QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item4398bdd793&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
Here are a few others on Ebay.
Same as above but higher output.
http://cgi.ebay.com/100W-R-Core-Transformer-115V-230V-Pre-amplifier-DAC_W0QQitemZ250467353863QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item3a51048507&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
This one looks very interesting.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Push-pull-single-end-Audio-output-transformer-core-kit3_W0QQitemZ260450649994QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item3ca411878a&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
Quote from: i_ron on July 30, 2009, 10:50:46 AM
All crap and red herrings as usual... our problem is not "cogging torque" this is a term specifically related to continuously cored induction motors where the gap between the laminations causes 'cogging torque'
Use the right term, "core drag" for this prominent problem.
Ron
And this high "core drag" or "core losses" that I am experiencing is because of improper laminate material? (at least in my case?)
Minde
You are right R,
I said that cogging is hardly a loss in a system, because it is compared to the real losses like Lenz, Eddy and hysteresis drag. So indeed the placing of the cores in Muller layout will not change the above stated core based losses. I'm well aware of core losses lol.
Quote from: i_ron on July 29, 2009, 12:22:06 AM
Steven, this is a great simplification that may have some small merit factor.
But it ignores the main core losses of eddy and hysteresis losses. There is no avoiding these losses by staggering the core magnet ratio.
Each core has an associated loss and these losses are directly additive.
The only core that has no core loss is an air cored coil.
Baroutologos, Minde, and myself have all published our numbers that show core loss is present.
Regards,
Ron
See here:
http://www.mkmagnetics.com/dataSheets/pdf/brochure051104.pdf (http://www.mkmagnetics.com/dataSheets/pdf/brochure051104.pdf)
It states losses and intended max frequency's.
I have ordered custom Finemet Ft3 cores from them and this material is more expensive then you think lol. Square 50 is also a material typically intended for saturatable reactors. It offers very square Bh loops. But it is also very expensive.
Quote from: CRANKYpants on July 29, 2009, 10:22:56 PM
I'M NO MAGNETICS DESIGNER BUT I LIKE THIS ONE...
Square 50 - 50% Ni/Fe/ alloy, (grain oriented). It offers the highest squareness ratio (lowest saturated reactance) and very high gain. This material has Bm while cores losses are low enough to consider its use in higher frequency applications than the silicon steels. Applications include bi-stable switching devices, inverter transformers, high performance power magnetic amplifiers, linear current transformers, timing devices, driver transformers, and wherever an extremely square loop material, manufactured to close tolerance, is required.
DON'T LIKE THIS ONE...
Microsil - 3% Si/Fe - Oriented Silicon Iron Alloy. This material is generally used for high power, relatively low frequency applications in high performance power transformers, saturable reactors, inverter transformers, magnetic amplifiers (power), current transformers, output transformers, etc. This is the least expensive of the square loop materials and has high maximum flux. The Squareness ratio is lower than for Square 50. The core losses are higher while gain is significantly lower.
AS I SAID EARLIER CORE CHOICE IS REALLY NOT AN ISSUE RIGHT NOW EXCEPT FOR YOUR HEATING PROBLEM WHICH SUGGESTS YOU NEED A HIGHER FREQUENCY CORE MATERIAL.
IT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED ALREADY THAT MORE EFFICIENT - HIGHER GRADE CORES INCREASE OVERALL PERFORMANCE.
DO YOU HAVE THE MATERIAL NAME RATHER THAN JUST THE THICKNESS?
T
Online shop for all kinds of C cores (also other cores shapes) http://www.alphacoredirect.com/index.html?lmd=39634.474294 (http://www.alphacoredirect.com/index.html?lmd=39634.474294) Prices are good, also for custom cores. Good quality also.
Quote from: wattsup on July 30, 2009, 11:48:35 AM
To cog or not to cog. That is the question. lol
@baroutologos
Don't mind @TH. His style is someimes rough (hey mine can be too) but he is all around OK and trying to help us within his own limitations, as we all.
@all
No one answered my question regarding square versus round coil/magnets but a recent link put up on this thread covered it pretty well. Seems both types have their strong points..
Have not heard from the C-core maker.
I don't think I will be able to spend 8 hours winding a coil so I am looking at any other ready made low cost alternatives.
I have been looking on e-bay for laminated cores and have found a few using the phrase "transformer core".
In the photo below, what if such a transformer was simply (and slowly) cut in half through the laminates right between the coils. It would give two coils with two specs. The primary side has two windings already to go from 110 to 220 vac. The secondary side has more windings but there may be a way of bifilaring the connections.
That link is here.
http://cgi.ebay.com/56W-R-Core-Transformer-110V-200V-for-USB-1798DAC_W0QQitemZ290325387155QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item4398bdd793&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
Here are a few others on Ebay.
Same as above but higher output.
http://cgi.ebay.com/100W-R-Core-Transformer-115V-230V-Pre-amplifier-DAC_W0QQitemZ250467353863QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item3a51048507&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
This one looks very interesting.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Push-pull-single-end-Audio-output-transformer-core-kit3_W0QQitemZ260450649994QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item3ca411878a&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
yes,,,browsing around on that alphacoredirect site brought me to a word doc that mentioned samples,hmmmm,go for it you guys ,,if you find that sample's page then check EVERYTHING,,,I am not sure there even IS a samples page,I just saw it refferenced in the word doc I was looking thru.
Luck + Prayers+ Desire to coil=Coils
Joe in Texas (HOT Today)
Quote from: minde4000 on July 30, 2009, 12:24:17 PM
And this high "core drag" or "core losses" that I am experiencing is because of improper laminate material? (at least in my case?)
Minde
YES - YOUR CORES ARE OVERHEATING BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT DESIGNED TO DO WHAT YOU ARE ASKING THEM TO DO - SO YOU NEED TO FIND CORE MATERIAL THAT HAS...
- A NARROW HYSTERISIS CURVE
- LOW COERCIVE FORCE
- LOW REMNANANT FLUX DENSITY
- HIGH RELATIVE PERMEABILITY
- HIGH SATURATION POINT
HERE IS A GOOD LINK FOR YOUR EDUCATION SIR:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/tables/magprop.html#c2
T
Thanks @all for links. I would like to mention one more time: my core does NOT heat up - coil wire only.
Minde
Quote from: CRANKYpants on July 28, 2009, 08:00:38 PM
@ MINDE...
IF YOU PLACE YOUR COIL(S) ON A RAIL AND THE CALIFORNIA DUDES ARE DOING AND THEY ARE IN ACCELERATING MODE AND WHEN YOUR ROTOR IS UP TO SPEED YOU GRADUALLY BRING YOUR COILS INTO POSITION - PRODUCING POWER AND ACCELERATION - YOU ARE DONE!
CHEERS
T
This one is very important to me Thane.
This statement above effectively says: your coil DOES overcome core losses even with power production in other words your free spin rotor lets say at 100vac will consume MORE power and have LOWER rpm VS rotor "loaded" with coils producing power. Answer is YES or NO(or numbers). No chinese wisdom will be taken for an answer... ;)
Thank You
Minde
Quote from: minde4000 on July 31, 2009, 12:37:34 AM
This one is very important to me Thane.
This statement above effectively says: your coil DOES overcome core losses even with power production
Thank You
Minde
CONFUSIUS (NOT CONFUSEUS) SAY:
YES OF COURSE IT WILL.
T
@all
On a lighter note, I could not resist by asking how big would the rotor and magnets have to be to use these coils. lol
http://cgi.ebay.com/SIEMENS-2500-KVA-12000V-480Y-277-TRANSFORMER-CORE_W0QQitemZ270435950865QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Circuit_Breakers_Transformers?hash=item3ef73d2111&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116
Quote from: wattsup on July 30, 2009, 11:48:35 AM
@baroutologos
Don't mind @TH. His style is someimes rough (hey mine can be too) but he is all around OK and trying to help us within his own limitations, as we all.
A bit naive is it not wattsup? This is not confirmation that he is trying to help us, exactly the opposite. Would not a man who had an OU device that he was trying to get out to the world go out of his way to provide the possibly overlooked details that the replicator had missed rather than dumping on builders and calling them stupid because their replication didn't work? Ask yourself what actual proof has been shown.
Ron
Ryobi can play a lot of tricks for untrained eyes with its rpm/torque/power consumption curves.
Minde
By the way, I_Ron do not inflame things further pls. Not constructive in anyway.
I do not believe mr T has any OU device ready, and he is still in the search as we do.
I want to think we are all on the same side here.
.........................
Nevertheless, today i concentrated on measuring my coils' performance with closed flux path, without closed flux path, with ferrite magnets rotor, mechanical losses in my system in various rpm range etc. (i will post facts and figures one day)
Pending the multi-fillar windings and testing.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: baroutologos on July 31, 2009, 03:08:16 PM
By the way, I_Ron do not inflame things further pls. Not constructive in anyway.
I do not believe mr T has any OU device ready, and he is still in the search as we do.
I want to think we are all on the same side here.
.........................
Regards,
Baroutologos
A matter of view point perhaps but speaking the truth as I have done is constructive. People who have been in full support of mylow or who have spent hours on the Bob Kostoff machine, who show up here in full support of Thane's device with no reservations, are fair game to me. There must be some basic level of critical thinking... just accepting video evidence and the man's word, without any working prototype, no factual numbers, no working replications is not showing any evidence of critical thinking.
Ron
You are right about critical thinking.
"parachute and mind should be kept open"
The only thing i accepted as true half a year ago without even knowing the EE basics was the accellaration effect, and i must admit this was a great starting point to my OU research and I thank Mr T for that (bringing to my attention in an explicit way)
...............................
Having "played" enough with my setups and saw their behaviours in various accelaration and non mode, i can understand more or less what i see in the videos.
The figures presented in videos are quite reasonable to my understanding, but, explanations/theories and output extrapolation are subjected to question.
It must be noted - no offence at inventor - that he believed for a time that accelaration was coming from prime mover being "fluxed-up" by the magnet/coil system via a steel bar, contrary to many voices denying such thing.
Easily his current beliefs could be wrong too.
The perepeteia setup evolution is far from over I_Ron. There is road ahead, but steps have been made. Lets just have ideas, resources and time to get to the desired effect. (OU)
Regards,
Baroutologos
OU DEMO AT OU
WE GAVE A DEMO TO THE UNIVERSITY YESTERDAY WITH THE TRANSFORMER PERFORMING AT 1100% (SEE PHOTO DATA).
THIS IS THE SAME DEMO WE GAVE TO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE ONTARIO RESEARCH AND INNOVATION COUNCIL A WEEK AGO.
INPUT POWER = 0.045 W
OUTPUT POWER = 0.495 W
EFFICIENCY = 1099%
T
Mr. T,
you have to include the reactive-power-part because to drive this part needs energy also.
The "total real power" to drive the total "appearant power" must be compared with the real output on the load.
I made a suggestion how to measure this with a diffrerent driver-circuit not using the grid.
So again my question : How are the figures you measure concerning the appearant power-input in the primary ?
Regards
Kator01
Quote from: Kator01 on August 01, 2009, 08:37:15 PM
Mr. T,
you have to include the reactive-power-part because to drive this part needs energy also.
So again my question : How are the figures you measure concerning the appearant power-input in the primary ?
Regards
Kator01
I AM INCLUDING THE REACTIVE POWER PART THE REACTIVE POWER IS: 120.4 V x 0.006 A = 0.72 VAr
THE REAL POWER IS: 120.4 V x 0.006 A x 0.05 = 0.036 W
BECAUSE THE VOLTAGE AND CURRENT ARE OUT OF PHASE BY 87 DEGREES ONLY 3% OF THE REACTIVE CURRENT IS REAL.
NOW I KNOW WE PAY FOR REACTIVE POWER FROM OUR UTILITY COMPANIES BUT THE TRANSFORMER IS MEANT TO BE MATED TO A GENERATOR WHICH PRODUCES REACTIVE POWER UNTIL IT IS CONNECTED TO A LOAD (AS THEY ALL DO) - SO THE GENERATOR WILL PRODUCE REACTIVE POWER ON NO-LOAD - CONNECTED TO A TRANSFORMER THAT USES REACTIVE POWER TO PRODUCE REAL POWER WHILE ON-LOAD.
NOW EVEN A CONVENTIONAL GENERATOR (IN EV's) WILL BENEFIT FROM THE BI-TOROID BECAUSE IT WILL BE MAGNETICALLY AND ELECTRICALLY ISOLATED FROM THE LOAD - AND "THINK" IT IS STILL ON NO-LOAD WHILE DELIVERING REAL POWER TO THE BATTERIES.
ALSO BEAR IN MIND BOTH PROTOTYPES IN THE LAB RIGHT NOW USE M6 SCRAPS PICKED UP AND PIECED TOGETHER - THE TRANSFORMERS TO BE PRODUCED BY TOROID TECH WILL EMPLOY M1 OR M0 SO 1100% IS NOTHING YET.
T
Thane, I am not skeptical...I believe in you..
What I do not understand is...Why has this not been commercialized yet? You have been working on this for years. I found this link from 2007 http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/potential-difference-transformation.html?cp=1 (http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/potential-difference-transformation.html?cp=1). Please, someone explain to me "why" this cannot be incorporated into a commercial application? Why are thousands of companies not using this already?
Quote from: Fred Flintstone on August 02, 2009, 03:07:02 PM
Thane, I am not skeptical...I believe in you..
What I do not understand is...Why has this not been commercialized yet? You have been working on this for years. I found this link from 2007 http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/potential-difference-transformation.html?cp=1 (http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/potential-difference-transformation.html?cp=1). Please, someone explain to me "why" this cannot be incorporated into a commercial application? Why are thousands of companies not using this already?
BECAUSE IT TOOK THAT LONG TO FINALLY MAKE IT WORK...(MAYBE)
THAT ARTICLE WAS THE ONLY THE CONCEPT SUPPORTED BY A COUPLE OF NON OR ONLY HALF WORKING PROTOTYPES.
SINCE THEN HUNDREDS OF PROTOTYPES WERE MADE - WHICH ALL FAILED AND IF ANYONE REMEMBERS GOTOLUC WOUND COILS UNTIL HE COULD HARDY WALK BACK TO HIS CAR.
AND THE FINAL COIL WHICH TOOK 4 DAYS TO MAKE, BROKE BOTH OF OUR WILLS UNTIL I REVISITED IT RECENTLY.
SO THE "WORKING FORMULA" WAS DISCOVERED ON TESLAS BIRTHDAY ONLY A FEW WEEKS AGO.
T
PS
One day Pebbles Flintstone was in bed with Fred and Wilma. They were both naked. Pebbles sees Fred's weewee and says, "Daddy, what's that?" and Fred says "Th-that's...um...thats daddy's rock." A little while later Pebbles looks down and sees Wilma's vagina. "What's that, mommy?" she aks. "Oh..that..that's mommy's rock grinder." All of a sudden Pebbles sits up and says, "I get it! Daddy puts his rock into mommy's rock grinder and out comes pebbles!"
@TH and @IST and others
I think this may have some good application for you. I call it a Ricochet Generator or rGen for short.
Looking at your builds of your devices and also looking especially at @THs' Perepiteia unit (that I will start building at the end of August), I was thinking of how to increase generator output and maybe assist in rotation. So I got the following idea and put it in a diagram form. I think the general idea will be well understood for you to maybe take advantage of in one way or the other, in the future.
The basic idea comes from looking at a standard alternator that works by turning an iron mass rotor that is magnetized by an internal coil, against an iron mass with stator coils. One moving rotor field against stationary generator coils. Then I compared this to all the generator designs using magnet-only rotors or magnet stators and especially seeing @baroutologos and his wider spacing of his magnets, then something clicked.
What if between the rotor magnets you had wound coils that I will call "rotor coils". Same number of rotor coils as magnets are placed on the rotor. Since the rotor magnets would be turning with the rotor coils, the magnets cannot impart to the rotor coils. The rotor turns and only the moving magnets impart to the stator coils and the stator cores get magnetized and then this stationary magnetism can be imparted back to the rotor coil that is moving with the rotor magnets. The rotor coil outputs have to be on slip rings and would be about 12-24 turns only and all connected in parallel so the coils do not have a tendency to increase in magnetic field. But during the cogging between rotor magnet and stator coil, some of that cogging energy could be picked up by the rotor coil. Also I think by playing with the polarities of the rotor coils, there may be a way of canceling the cogging like in @Thanes' device. The rotor coil would work like a magnetic vacuum cleaner, sending this juice back to a dioded capacitor, then either to usage or back to the drive motor.
Hope this idea will open some new avenues for you and others. I am leaving on vacation tomorrow for a several days. Please keep the infighting to a minimum. lol
Hi @ all,
I was intesively involved the past weekend at performing experiments with multifillar coil.
After hard work, i manage to remove old coils re-wind and mount them to my setup.
The new coils were 400 turns or 250gr (more or less) 29awg - at ten strands, twisted and wound on same cores. (quite a labour!) Each coil has a 1 ohm dc resistance, the two arranges in series have 2 ohms resistance.
Findings,
................
Each coil alone shorted at 1500 rpm strungles to accelarate.(rather decelarates) Together, series connected accelarate BETTER than the previous coils. (biffilar 24awg @ 50ohms - series connected)
Each coil at 2000 rpm output some 60 volts ac and 1.5-2 amps (depends the magnet gap), oh yes 2 amps oscillating current.
Useful output ?
....................
Ok, i made a set of coils that more or less outputs the same. Is those of any use? I tried to charge a battery via a FWBR. No such luck. Decellaration (mild one) kick-in even at 3000 rpm. (which coils total 140 vac combined)
Speaking totally out of experience with my setup, i find that if i rectify the produced current, in order to charge a battery (12volt) without decelaration to kick in, the coil (s) must possess some 200 vac+ at open. A lot of voltage required just to counter a small impedance.
Finally i did some bulb-light load testing. Having not solid figures to present i could say only that i could use 5-6 watts without decellaration. Core losses are larger from this number, so no use anyway... ???
Findings
......................
Its like strunggling against a ghost... pheewww... coils at short (accellarating mode) output 1.5 - 2 amps and at open some 120 volts, and still cannot extract 10 watts without messing my accelaration?
What to say... something is fundamentally missing out of the equation for me, if OU is to be achieved.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Very nice figures Thane. Did you manage to impress the university folks? Maybe the university budget will invest in a complete custom built core and then we can truly see this shine. I'm curious, how much would such a core cost?
Quote from: broli on August 03, 2009, 12:02:02 PM
Very nice figures Thane. Did you manage to impress the university folks? Maybe the university budget will invest in a complete custom built core and then we can truly see this shine. I'm curious, how much would such a core cost?
THE FIGURES ARE ONLY AS GOOD AS THE ACCURACY OF THE MEASURING EQUIPMENT AND THE MEASURING METHOD - SO FAR THE METHOD SEEMS OK BUT WE WILL SEE WITH OUR NEXT PROTPTYPE.
TOROID TECH IS INVESTING IN THE NEW BI-TOROID - I AM HOPEFUL THAT WE WILL BE USING M1 MATERIAL IN THE TOROIDS AND M6 IN THE PRIMARY.
RIGHT NOW EVERYONE IS JUST HAPPY IT IS FUNCTIONING AS HOPED...
T
Quote from: Kator01 on August 01, 2009, 08:37:15 PM
Mr. T,
you have to include the reactive-power-part because to drive this part needs energy also.
The "total real power" to drive the total "appearant power" must be compared with the real output on the load.
I made a suggestion how to measure this with a diffrerent driver-circuit not using the grid.
So again my question : How are the figures you measure concerning the appearant power-input in the primary ?
Regards
Kator01
HERE IS THE RESPONSE TO YOUR POST USING THE PYTHAGOREAN THEOREM TO DOUBLE CHECK THE NUMBERS - WHICH CAME FROM A DEMO I GAVE TODAY.
T
These are the numbers from today:
Input Voltage = 120.1 V
Input Current = 0.003 A
Scope Observed Power Factor = 0.309 or 72 degrees
True Primary Power = V x I x cos72
= 120.1 x 0.003 x .309
= 0.111 W
Reactive Primary Power = V x I x sin72
= 120,1 x 0.003 x .951
= 0.343 VAr
Apparent Primary Power = V x I
= 120.1 x 0.003
= 0.36 VA CHECK
Apparent Primary Power = (square root of) Real Power^2 + Reactive Power^2
= (square root of) 0,111^2 + 0.343^2
= 0.36 VA
Thane some people here would like you to put all kind of shows up. You don't need to be a genius to understand power factors and how you can EASILY get them from a scope. But apparently you have to repeat the same thing 1000 times before it gets through to them. You have shown enough times that you get more out that in. So why don't we all cut the crap and replicate it already.
The main discussion should be about how to get as much people as possible to replicate it. Where to find the cheapest materials to do so by sharing links or ebay offers.
Broli,
if you want to adress me, please do so in a direct way. If you think I just want to keep people busy here with unqualified remarks you should get back to my post #518 on page 52, read and understand first what I am talking about. Then you should read Thanes first answer #563 on page 57.
Now the point is this :
The mere assumption that driving the primary coil of a transformer with no load at the secondary is for free is simply wrong. It is similar to a free wheeling very low-frequency-oscillator with no extra capacitor but with the coil-capacitance acting instead so that you have a parallel LC-Tank.
Driving such an LC-Tank in idle-mode needs energy otherwise any LC-tank would just run on its own. If you can present such a circuit here I will be the first to buy it you have my word.
I hope you get this point now.
Driving an high- or low-frequency LC-tank makes no difference in this regard. The only difference with hf-tanks is that they radiate em-waves which needs still more energy.
In a low-frequency-tank with an iron-core involved you need power to overcome the magnetization-losses even, if you are idle mode.
In order to find the correct number of this minimum-necessary power we need a 50 hz oscillator which is independent of the grid, for example a wien-oscillator with a push-pull-output-stage. Only with such a setup we will be able to measure the real input. Period
I will not repeat myself.
Regards
Kator01
Quote from: Kator01 on August 06, 2009, 03:09:36 PM
Broli,
if you want to adress me, please do so in a direct way. If you think I just want to keep people busy here with unqualified remarks you should get back to my post #518 on page 52, read and understand first what I am talking about. Then you should read Thanes first answer #563 on page 57.
Now the point is this :
The mere assumption that driving the primary coil of a transformer with no load at the secondary is for free is simply wrong. It is similar to a free wheeling very low-frequency-oscillator with no extra capacitor but with the coil-capacitance acting instead so that you have a parallel LC-Tank.
Driving such an LC-Tank in idle-mode needs energy otherwise any LC-tank would just run on its own. If you can present such a circuit here I will be the first to buy it you have my word.
I hope you get this point now.
Driving an high- or low-frequency LC-tank makes no difference in this regard. The only difference with hf-tanks is that they radiate em-waves which needs still more energy.
In a low-frequency-tank with an iron-core involved you need power to overcome the magnetization-losses even, if you are idle mode.
In order to find the correct number of this minimum-necessary power we need a 50 hz oscillator which is independent of the grid, for example a wien-oscillator with a push-pull-output-stage. Only with such a setup we will be able to measure the real input. Period
I will not repeat myself.
Regards
Kator01
Yes, uhuh,I see.... but maybe you have dodged the fact that the output has a resistive load. I will not repeat myself.
Quote from: broli on August 06, 2009, 07:54:33 AM
Thane some people here would like you to put all kind of shows up.
I AM AFRAID I DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS STATEMENT?
QuoteYou don't need to be a genius to understand power factors and how you can EASILY get them from a scope. But apparently you have to repeat the same thing 1000 times before it gets through to them.
I HAVE TO REPEAT IT 1000 TIMES TO MYSELF BEFORE I GET IT OR AT LEAST START TO TRUST THAT IT MAY BE REAL...
QuoteYou have shown enough times that you get more out that in. So why don't we all cut the crap and replicate it already.
AS FAR AS I KNOW AT LEAST 4 PEOPLE ARE NOW DOING IT INCLUDING A TRANSFORMER COMPANY AND SOON TWO.
QuoteThe main discussion should be about how to get as much people as possible to replicate it. Where to find the cheapest materials to do so by sharing links or ebay offers.
IN A FEW DAYS WE SHOULD HAVE A FACTORY MADE CORE WITH OR WITHOUT WINDINGS SO ANYBODY THAT WANTS ONE CAN HAVE IT.
T
Quote from: CRANKYpants on August 06, 2009, 05:12:18 PM
IN A FEW DAYS WE SHOULD HAVE A FACTORY MADE CORE WITH OR WITHOUT WINDINGS SO ANYBODY THAT WANTS ONE CAN HAVE IT.
Do you have an estimate cost with and without shipping to europe?
How does it work coupled with perpetia generator Thane? Whats the output and prime mover reaction?
Also what is the cost of your transformer? (and where to find discount coupons :P)
Tnx
Quote from: Kator01 on August 06, 2009, 03:09:36 PM
Broli,
#518 on page 52, read and understand first what I am talking about. Then you should read Thanes first answer #563 on page 57.
THANKS FOR POINTING OUT THAT POST BECAUSE
THE REACTIVE POWER CALCULATION IS NOT CORRECT ALTHOUGH THE OUTCOME IS VIRTUALLY THE SAME. IT SHOULD BE...
THE REACTIVE POWER IS = 120.4 V x 0.006 A x
sin 87 = 120.4 x 0.006 x 0.999
= 0.72 VAr
THE REAL POWER IS: 120.4 V x 0.006 A x 0.05 = 0.036 W
BECAUSE THE VOLTAGE AND CURRENT ARE OUT OF PHASE BY 87 DEGREES ONLY 3% OF THE REACTIVE CURRENT IS REAL.
T
Quote
Now the point is this :
The mere assumption that driving the primary coil of a transformer with no load at the secondary is for free is simply wrong.
I FULLY EXPECT THE PERFORMANCE OF THE BI-TOROID TO INCREASE SO THAT EVEN IF REACTIVE POWER IS USED IN THE PRIMARY - THE SECONDARY OUTPUT WILL SURPASS IT.
ALSO IF WE ARE USING REAL CURRENT AND NOT REACTIVE CURRENT THEN THE CURRENT ACTUALLY BEING DISSIPATED IN THE PRIMARY IS 3% OF 0.006 A OR 0.00018 A - IT'S NOT FREE -BUT...?
QuoteI will not repeat myself.
Regards
Kator01
RATS! - I FOR ONE NEED AT LEAST ANOTHER 999 REPEATS BEFORE I GET IT! :P
T
Quote from: broli on August 06, 2009, 05:14:25 PM
Do you have an estimate cost with and without shipping to europe?
SHIPPING IS FREE! ;)
ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS PURCHASE 2 ROUND TRIP TICKETS AND I WILL DELIVER IT IN PERSON FOR FREE - WHERE TO SIR, FRANCE, GERMANY, ITALY?
T
Hi T,
Quote
I FULLY EXPECT THE PERFORMANCE OF THE BI-TOROID TO INCREASE SO THAT EVEN IF REACTIVE POWER IS USED IN THE PRIMARY - THE SECONDARY OUTPUT WILL SURPASS IT.
If this is what you will get - only then will things get serious here. I hope this will be the case.
No Rats anymore.
@Broli : Your answer tells me that you have not understood my point. It may be because of the fact that I miss ( as a german ) the correct grammer.
Before you ever measure a device under load the first thing you do is to measure the idle-mode and determine real power in joule or wattseconds to generate appearant power. I do not know how to make it more clear.
At least Thane has got the point although he is not expressing this directly
Regards K-Rats
Quote from: Kator01 on August 06, 2009, 06:16:40 PM
@Broli : Your answer tells me that you have not understood my point. It may be because of the fact that I miss ( as a german ) the correct grammer.
Before you ever measure a device under load the first thing you do is to measure the idle-mode and determine real power in joule or wattseconds to generate appearant power. I do not know how to make it more clear.
At least Thane has got the point although he is not expressing this directly
Thane gave all the needed data to calculate this. Whether the data is wrong is something else entirely. But I assume it's correct, if that's the case there's obvious overunity. If thane's budget allows it he could close the loop by rectifying the output and feeding it into an inverter which drives the primary. There might be an initial runaway until the loses equal the gain. But the power of the current prototype is probably too low to overcome all the loses to close the loop.
@baroutologos
Just got back from a short fishing trip with my wife. It was not good fishing but the north of Quebec is great to calm the soul. I notice no one has responded to your post located here;
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7530.msg195132#msg195132
I am following your work closely as it is giving me final set points for my build spec.
I see you have used the 10 strand twisted to make your coil. Please note that this coil wind method is great for the generator part of your build but probably not the acceleration part since it is designed to provide great core to coil transfer while keeping the coils magnetic field inside the coil so it will not adversely affect the magnets as they approach the core.
I have noticed a few things on what you have tried and would like to provide my impressions if it is all right with you.
First I notice that the core side closest to the magnet maybe be rather far from the magnet since you have about 1/2" of the core comming out of the coil. Is it possible fo you to try and wind a small 16 to 18 awg coil at the core end and us this as the shorted coil to accelerate and use the big coil for output power. I have made a small diagram for you shown below. This is just a test as it can give many new insights. You can also try with the big coil in series with the small coil then to a load. This will still create a good energ flow through the small coil.
Also, I see you have used that laminated connector between the cores to connect them together. I would remove that piece and keep your coils separate. One of the main reasons is how the power transfer from core to coil is being done, that cross bar will not help and may be causing some mutual coil cancellation. The simple fact that your magnets are alternating north to south should be enough for a straight core/coil to work OK.
Question: Do you have access to some capacitors. I am thinking 1mf-50v range but am basing it on my experience in using caps and have no calculation ability to really fix the best value. If you have several of these or near that range and if you can make a small coil at the end of your present coil, maybe try to connect only one capacitor in series with that shorted small coil. Try it. Then add a second capacitor in parallel to the first and see the effect.
I know I am asking much and please feel at home to simply ignore this post as I have no right to ask you anything in actual fact. My only push to do so is that your results would help me get my own build specs finalized. I am looking to make a build that could possible have the potential as a next generation already. I do not have metal machine shop so all the making will be contracted outside and I just do not want to make any mistakes and plan for possible future flexibility.
One of my theories is that the magnet does not need the complete coil to have the acceleration effect. It only needs that part of the coil field that is closest to the magnet, so why make the total coil as shorted. If this theory can prove to have some validity, then the acceleration could be done with thicker wire with less turns. That would mean much more flexibility in design.
Keep well and again good work and thanks for sharing your results.
wattsup
@TH
It's up to you but maybe you can consider to open a new thread for you transformer coil thingy and start fresh. Damn nice work.
@ALL
I SPLIT THE THREAD TODAY AND GAVE BARTO HIS OWN THREAD CALLED,
"BARTOS LENZLESS CAPACITOR THING" OR SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT.
T
Quote from: wattsup on August 06, 2009, 08:00:24 PM
@baroutologos
@TH
It's up to you but maybe you can consider to open a new thread for you transformer coil thingy and start fresh. Damn nice work.
I CONSIDERED THAT AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS THREAD BUT IN REALITY THE TRANSFORMER AND "ORIGINAL" GENERATOR COIL STARTED WITH THE SAME PREMISE - TO
CREATE AN ALTERNATIVE FLUX PATH FOR THE BACK EMF INDUCED FLUX - EITHER AWAY FROM THE PRIMARY COIL AS PER THE TRANSFORMER OR AWAY FROM THE ROTOR AS PER THE GENERATOR - SO IN A WAY IT IS FITTING TO HAVE IT HERE.
THIS WAS THE ORIGINAL INTENT HERE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpIdu1lWVW0
AND IF YOU REPLACE THE ROTOR WITH THE PRIMARY YOU HAVE THE TRANSFORMER - SORT OF.
T
@wattup
Ok, for being not offensive, i try to keep info/questions/answers regarding the cap-coil setup to the newly opened thread
Perepiteia Findings recap
..................................
As for the inward magnetic field that multifillar coils do, i have not a clue about that. The only thing i verified, after Aether22 findings a year ago, is that the accelaration under short phenomenon is turns dependent.
I have experimented so far with single wire:
-55 ohms 29 AWG
-75 ohms 29 AWG
-110 ohms 29 AWG
Biffilar setups - series / parallel connected
- 36 ohms x 2 ---> 72 ohms 29AWG and 18 ohms in parallel mode
- 23.5 x 2 ----> 47 ohms 24 AWG and 12 ohms in parallel mode
- 25 x 2 ----> 50 ohms 24AWG and 12.5 hhms in parallel mode
Trifilar setup
-6.5 ohms x 3 ---> 20 ohms 29 AWG and 2 ohms in parallel mode
Ten-filar (current setup) exaggerated just to show the point in parallel connection
-10 ohms x 10 ----> 1 ohm 29 AWG
And imagine have done many combinations of them.
I am in possition to safely conclude that acceleration is turns depended.
Regarding you suggestion
..................................
You cannot achieve acceleration in conventional terms with a 200 turns single coil with 16 awg coil no matter what Wattup! if you do, pls do tell me.
But, with 200 turns of 20 fillar coil (fine wire), accelaration is there and a good one.
The question is:
.............................
What is best to deal with high voltage low current accelarating setups or vice versa?
I tend towards lower voltage because, motor is battery powered and if any hope of OU is to be achieved it should be in lower voltage range.
By the way there are reasons that higher voltage is desired.
As far as the cap questions concern. i employ them instead of step down transformers so as to speak, but from rough calculations and observations i have reasons to believe are more efficient at taking power out.
closing the magnetic flux
.....................................
I have experimented with the current coils, with the bottom lamination and without it.
My findings are (do not have the xls file on hand) @ 1500 rpm:
closed flux path 90 vac @ 1.3 amps
open flux path 60 vac @ 1.6 amps
Definetely there is improvement in closing the flux path.
Regards,
baroutologos
This might sound like a stupid question. Can I use a plastic wheel for my Heins generator rotor, and use a Bedini-Cole window motor for the motor?
I've got the perfect tiny setup. The motor will turn 2200 rpms with only a few miliamps draw. I want to use the plastic wheel with Neo magnets and 2 or 4 charging coils.
So after researching, this is the way I understand it... Forgive me if I am totally wrong:
If I get the plastic rotor with magnets going fast enough (above a certain frequency) I read that the changing magnetic fields in the stator coils cannot keep up with the moving magnets, hence you don't get the normal Lenz drag. Above a certain speed acceleration occurs. This speed is dependent on the number of windings, the total inductance of the stator coils, the spacing of the magnets, etc.
Can I just slam about 12 (3/4") Neo magnets on my plastic rotor and put 2 stator coils on and have a generator???
Quote from: supermuble on August 10, 2009, 01:59:48 AM
Can I just slam about 12 (3/4") Neo magnets on my plastic rotor and put 2 stator coils on and have a generator???
Of course you can.
Whether or not you will create an efficient generator is an altogether different question. :P
Why not try it anyway? good luck.
Cheers
Quote from: supermuble on August 10, 2009, 01:59:48 AM
This might sound like a stupid question. Can I use a plastic wheel for my Heins generator rotor, and use a Bedini-Cole window motor for the motor?
Can I just slam about 12 (3/4") Neo magnets on my plastic rotor and put 2 stator coils on and have a generator???
JUST MAKE SURE YOUR COILS ARE ON A DOOR SO THEY CAN BE MOVED INTO POSITION ONCE THE MOTOR IS AT FULL SPEED TO AVOID STARTUP COGGING,
ALSO GOTOLUC HAS A MOTOR SIMILAR TO YOURS - BUT THE CURRENT GOES DOWN WHEN THE MOTOR IS LOADED - IT MIGHT BE HANDY?
T
Quote from: supermuble on August 10, 2009, 01:59:48 AM
The motor will turn 2200 rpms with only a few miliamps draw. I want to use the plastic wheel with Neo magnets and 2 or 4 charging coils.
Few miliamps unloaded and few hundred loaded with half rpm? All of them look sweet and innocent when they free spin but once you load them up... I have a different kind of "efficient" DC motor with tesla pancace coils. 2300 rpm 740 DC @ 20 ma when free spin. 14W free spin and 350W loaded with 50% rpm drop (depends on the load of course)... I am yet to see a bedini or any other efficient DC pulse motor doing anything else but free spinning....
Give it a try
@THANE
QUITE A FEW OF US WOULD LOVE TO SEE A NEW VIDEO WITH FREE ROTOR SPIN POWER CONSUMPTION AT FIXED RPM AND THEN HOW YOU CLOSE THE DOORS AND YOUR PRIME MOVER POWER CONSUMPTION AND RPM
DOES NOT CHANGE AND HOW YOU GET "ACCELERATION" WHILE PRODUCING POWER AND WITH SAME FIXED PRIME MOVER INPUT.
This is where we replicators are stuck at... We cannot overcome core losses. You say you DO so could you PLEASE demonstrate it on 1 min video?This is the KEY ISSUE for us ladies and gentelman. IF THIS QUESTION WILL GO UNANSWERED
AGAIN OR ANSWERED WITH "ANCIENT WISDOM" I WILL PUSH THIS UNTIL IT WILL ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.
What is the problem of confirming this??? (I might see only one myself... but I will keep it with me this time)
Minde
@minde4000
You maybe will not repond but that's OK.
You are right in asking @TH such a question but I think I know why your results are not as good as @THs.
I would only ask one question to @TH.
Approximately how many coils did you try before you actual saw your acceleration effect. If he responds with many many coils were tried, then you also have your answer and so do I to realize that the shorted coils have to be trimmed.
Meaning what. It's all a question of timing. Timing will be affected by rotor diameter, magnet spacing, coil core diameter, coil size, etc. All this will play in the timing. Your general parameters of your build may be just out of the range of timing you can finally adjust with the only variable - rpm. Your set-up may need 6000 rpm or more.
I think if you put your shorted coil is series with a multi tapped coil, meaning a coil with many winds, let's say 500 turns, with a tap at every 50 turns going out of the coil. You can then put that coil in series with your coil and try different taps. Each tap will change the timing of the coil. If none of those taps work to get a better acceleration, then this means your coil itself is way out of range and the motor rpm cannot find the sweet spot.
Or, just add 5 more coils of 20-50 turn each over your existing coil and do the series connections as you wish and try it like that.
I don't know how to explian it better then that.
@TH
If you make a small video, please try to put your scope on the shorted coil. This will tell us alot in what's happenning. Don't foget to put your probe on 10x to start with. Also, you can simply put your probe on a small coil and put the coil near the shorted coil and it should at least pick up the waveform.
Quote from: wattsup on August 10, 2009, 12:43:01 PM
@minde4000
You maybe will not repond but that's OK.
You are right in asking @TH such a question but I think I know why your results are not as good as @THs.
I would only ask one question to @TH.
Approximately how many coils did you try before you actual saw your acceleration effect. If he responds with many many coils were tried, then you also have your answer and so do I to realize that the shorted coils have to be trimmed.
Meaning what. It's all a question of timing. Timing will be affected by rotor diameter, magnet spacing, coil core diameter, coil size, etc. All this will play in the timing. Your general parameters of your build may be just out of the range of timing you can finally adjust with the only variable - rpm. Your set-up may need 6000 rpm or more.
I think if you put your shorted coil is series with a multi tapped coil, meaning a coil with many winds, let's say 500 turns, with a tap at every 50 turns going out of the coil. You can then put that coil in series with your coil and try different taps. Each tap will change the timing of the coil. If none of those taps work to get a better acceleration, then this means your coil itself is way out of range and the motor rpm cannot find the sweet spot.
Or, just add 5 more coils of 20-50 turn each over your existing coil and do the series connections as you wish and try it like that.
I don't know how to explian it better then that.
I understand that I have not tried many different coils. I do not have resources for that at the moment. I need 2 large bobbins and some more awg 22 wire so I would have a setup pretty closely matching T's. I am sure that large bifilars with lets say 22 awg mounted onto toroid like he has would act different so I have not tried this yet but I am getting there slowly. But how much different? Inventor insist that he does overcome core losses + power production. As far as we have gone - we cant pass core losses and not even mentioning power production.
But as I said before there are many different configs to be done before final conclusions to be presented here by me or others.
What does bother me: is unanswered key questions for one reason or the other. You pick.
Minde
Quote from: wattsup on August 10, 2009, 12:43:01 PM
@minde4000
You maybe will not repond but that's OK.
You are right in asking @TH such a question but I think I know why your results are not as good as @THs.
I would only ask one question to @TH.
Approximately how many coils did you try before you actual saw your acceleration effect. If he responds with many many coils were tried, then you also have your answer and so do I to realize that the shorted coils have to be trimmed.
Meaning what. It's all a question of timing. Timing will be affected by rotor diameter, magnet spacing, coil core diameter, coil size, etc. All this will play in the timing. Your general parameters of your build may be just out of the range of timing you can finally adjust with the only variable - rpm. Your set-up may need 6000 rpm or more.
I think if you put your shorted coil is series with a multi tapped coil, meaning a coil with many winds, let's say 500 turns, with a tap at every 50 turns going out of the coil. You can then put that coil in series with your coil and try different taps. Each tap will change the timing of the coil. If none of those taps work to get a better acceleration, then this means your coil itself is way out of range and the motor rpm cannot find the sweet spot.
Or, just add 5 more coils of 20-50 turn each over your existing coil and do the series connections as you wish and try it like that.
I don't know how to explian it better then that.
Wattsup, I would suggest you preform these very experiments and report your findings to the group.
I saw this same diehard support of the inventor in the mylow group so your credibility has worn a bit thin with me.
I have reported my findings openly and honestly, so has Minde, now lets have yours and Thane's.
Ron
Quote from: minde4000 on August 10, 2009, 01:53:55 PM
As far as we have gone - we cant pass core losses and not even mentioning power production.
Minde
CORE LOSSES ARE A
NON ISSUE RIGHT NOW BECAUSE CORES ARE A COMMON DENOMINATOR IN BOTH
CONVENTIONAL DECELERATING GENERATORS AND
REGENERATIVE ACCELERATING GENERATORS.
CAN YOU AGREE THAT CONVENTIONAL GENERATORS HAVE CORES?
T
Here is one thingy. My coil measures some 2.15 H inductance at 120 hz and as a capacitor at 1 khz. Also I have an aircap .2 mf. According to formulas my resonant freq is some 250 hz. And if I connect that cap in parallel to bifilar I dont dare to hit that resonant spot or my rotor is ready to peal my coil off the brackets. I learned this the hard way when I let it rundown with cap connected. When it hit some 1600-1400 rpm looked like rotor tried to "grab" my coil (jeez!) also multimeter was hooked up and it just fried right there...
If start to run system up I cant pass 1300 rpm. Motor cant overcome it.
What is going on there at resonance?
Minde
Hey minde,
I have experimenting with caps also. see the Barto'lenzess etc capacitor http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7904.0 thread.When you apply a cap, and progressing towards a resonant mode,
amps are mounting as well as volts.
My rotor at some reasonant rpm, exerts such break-effect on the coil that tends to smash coils' basis, and acts like an ABS breaking system!
I think that with the help of the cap, at this near-resonant frequency, each alternating current cycle stacks. Cap is overcharged and energy is accumulating will potential disastrous effects.
I tend to think at the moment this is not something desirable.
Regards,
Baroutologos
I wonder if there is some way to take advantage of such a resonance. Its like Bart said: lots of rpm dropped in less than a second and still glad my coil didnt brake off. Such a hit. Multimeter kept frying there for 2-3 seconds. At resonance coil gets close to superconductive and it grabs on a magnet big time. Maybe someone experienced could explain how to take advantage of this. Imagine @6000 rpm your system reach this resonance... effects could be destructive.. all of the sudden all of your coils fly off ;D
Minde
Quote from: minde4000 on August 10, 2009, 08:21:10 PM
I wonder if there is some way to take advantage of such a resonance.
Actually there is. Resonances recirculate energy, so if more energy pumping the system goes in, then is being withdrawn or lost, the power will build until something breaks. Power companies often take advantage of resonance to do power factor correction, lowering power production/delivery costs. Sometimes banks of capacitors are used, but often, an unloaded motor or undriven generator is left in circuit, which acts as a capacitor when deliberately run out of phase. This is called a synchronous condenser (or synchronous compensator).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_condenser
I would like to get some advice ??? ;D
I have a 20" circumference plastic rotor, about 6.5" diameter. I am thinking that 10 Neo magnets spaced at regular intervals, about 0.400" apart from each other. The coil spools i want to use are 2.5" deep x 2" wide with a 3/4" hollow core.
I could use any advice that would help. I can probably run a maximum of 8000 rpm on my Window motor prime mover. What combination of magnet spacing, magnet sizes, core type, etc should I use on my generator disk.
Here is an example of the sizes, but I plan on rewinding the coils and using Neo magnets (not ceramic). See pic.
We live in an artificial paradigm where everything has limitations. The limitations are artificial. There are no laws that cannot be bent or broken. ;D
Quote from: supermuble on August 15, 2009, 02:24:50 PM
We live in an artificial paradigm where everything has limitations. The limitations are artificial. There are no laws that cannot be bent or broken. ;D
Some very nice graphics.
Except they don't reflect the real world happenings. I showed that the shorted coil actually changes polarity by nearly 180 degrees... where is this in your fantasy piece? It would be better to base your hypothetical
modeling on a working machine, don't you think?
Ron
Can you please post diagrams. Your explanation doesn't help me visualize it.
OUR BI-TOROID TRANSFORMER IS ABOUT TO GO UNDER THE MAGNA-FYING GLASS.
HERE ARE SOME INTERESTING DEVELOPMENTS. WITH THE INPUT LEADS REVERSED THE POWER FACTOR GOES TO 1 BUT THE INPUT CURRENT DROPS AND THE EFFICIENCY IS STILL 288% - IN THE "CORRECT" LEAD ORIENTATION THE EFFICIENCY IS 1650% WITH A POWER FACTOR OF 0.035 OR 88 DEGREES.
T
"Correct" Input Lead Orientation
Input Voltage = 120.0
Input Current = 0.01 amps
Power Factor = 0.035 / 88 degrees
Input Power = 0.042 watts
Load Voltage = 2.63 volts
Output Power = 0.692 watts
Efficiency = 1648%
Reversed Lead Test Data
Input Voltage = 119.9
Input Current = 0.002 amps
Power Factor = 1.0 / 88 degrees
Input Power = 0.24 watts
Load Voltage = 2.63 volts
Output Power = 0.692 watts
Efficiency = 288%
.
.
I am confused. ;D
For acceleration to occur, you have to have an inverse of Lenz's law, otherwise there is no way an Adams motor would accelerate with loaded coils. I read an article that says the larger the inductance, the lower the speed threshold is for acceleration. The guy who wrote the article tried dozens of coils and cores and determined that there is a minimum threshold speed based on the inductance.
Could you explain more simply what happens in the coil core? If I am totally wrong, then what am I wrong about?
Are you saying that the coil cores reverse magnetic fields and current by 180 degrees when loaded?? So what does that mean? That can't be the case at all RPM. At extremely high RPM, things have to change because the inductor only functions up to a certain RPM, at which case no increase in speed can occur in the inductor. Isn't this why they use inductors as noise filters, and call them "charging chokes" because they block high frequencies.
I am just a little confused and I hope you can explain why my diagram is completely wrong. Let me know what I need to do to fix it. Thanks ;D
Hey Mumble,
It is adviced before theorizing to have a look at this thread's findings from replicators as well as read the original thread regarding Mr T's findings and then compile an understanding.
I have some experimenting hours on my own, with a dozen of coils and much more combinations, and still cannot fully compehend the phenomenon.
Bear in mind, two fully explored things.
* When we say acceleration under load, we mean under short, not a real load. If any considerable load capable of extracting real energy is put to the system. System demonstrates Lenz' law action as expected.
Still, the mediocre energy extraction that can be applied via a ohmic or any load till coil leave the speedup mode and exhibits normal Lenz law action, is lower (til now) that the core losses of the system.
Thane presented some findings supporting the contrary, but results are quite marginal, well inside any measurement mistake.
** The phenomenon is NOT frequency and inductunce depended. Its actually frequency and coil's turns depended. Coils turns could be made from one wire or many wires, series or parallel connected with same results so as rotor speedup concerns.
Regards,
Baroutologos
@Baroutologos
It need some 20-22awg LARGE coils with closed magnetic loop but I dont think that will change anything.
I have found that shorted coils act like "infinite" capacitor. Charges upon magnet approach and discharge when magnet moves away. I do not see any point where that "extra" energy would come from into the system. Where and why would some sort of amp or voltage amplification should occur?
Also I had LCR circuit setup when coil was inductor in current node and cap was in voltage node. I would like to 180 opposite to use coil as a capacitor and transformer as inductor to get them to LCR and see what happens (maybe coil will get pealed off this time ;D). Need large transformer with high inductance.
Minde
Have you studied the adams motors?
I read an article where a person did many tests and verified acceleration with high inductance medium RPM, or low inductance high RPM.
baroutologos, I am not sure what you mean, "more turns of wire..." More turns of wire = higher inductance. Inductance is just the strength of the magnetic field created by a given coil of wire. The acceleration effect doesn't work with hollow air core coils, so obviously inductance is part of the equation.
I am beginning to feel sad since nobody here is really saying anything that makes sense. If you have something scientific to say, then I would love to learn.
I am experimenting everyday, that's part of learning.... Please don't insult me because I am only trying to learn.
;D
Quote from: i_ron on August 16, 2009, 01:33:55 PM
Yes supermuble, this came out in response to a request by Kator back on pages 24/25, posts 238,239,245,248,249.
Ron
Hi Ron,
I'm not familiar with the your Syscomp Oscilloscope, but if the same units (1V) for Channel A were displayed on my oscilloscope it would indicate that the V on the scope was going from +3 to -3 V. That would be very low for a HV coil, but appropriate for a HC coil.
Also, the timebase shows 1ms, which would mean that peak to peak is 4ms. So that would be 250 peak to peak per second or 15,000 per minute. So if you have 18 magnets at 1000rpm then it would pass at 18,000 times per minute. This seems below the threshold rpm for the acceleration effect.
Please enlighten me.
Thanks, Larry
@Mumble,
Perhaps you are right Mumble.
If self-inductunce is depended only on mumber of turns, no matter:
*the turns are series connected i.e. one wire @ 1000 turns or 2 wires(biffilar) at 500 turns series connected (adding voltages)
or
*parallel connected as in my latest experiements i.e 10 wires (Litzed) at 100 turns (adding amperage)
Then self-inductunce is the one part of the equation. The other is frequency for sure.
And yes, i have studied many motors. Many of them exhibit the speedup effect. It's well observed. Anyway, in our setups, so far the effect does not actually helps in gaining any surplus energy out. I have focus my studies that maybe the solution lies to the usage of caps, we see. (If you have studied some OU setups/patents, caps for collecting output are always there)
@Minde
Yes Minde, you are right about the feeling!! Shorted coils in Perepeteia setup (apart from the speedup part) behave as infinite capacitor!
With one small difference. The coil is a coil and not capacitor. Neither my 10 fillar low voltage accellerating coils have any special capacitance to claim so.
Regards,
baroutologos
Quote from: minde4000 on August 16, 2009, 05:48:51 PM
@Baroutologos
It need some 20-22awg LARGE coils with closed magnetic loop but I dont think that will change anything.
I have found that shorted coils act like "infinite" capacitor. Charges upon magnet approach and discharge when magnet moves away. I do not see any point where that "extra" energy would come from into the system. Where and why would some sort of amp or voltage amplification should occur?
Also I had LCR circuit setup when coil was inductor in current node and cap was in voltage node. I would like to 180 opposite to use coil as a capacitor and transformer as inductor to get them to LCR and see what happens (maybe coil will get pealed off this time ;D). Need large transformer with high inductance.
Minde
Exactly why I recommended as previously to add a second coil on the first coil, but only wound near the magnet rotor and put in series with the bigger coil. When the magnet approaches the bigger coil has enough turns to be well charged, but when it discharges with aim to aid in the rotor rotation, the discharge happens in the total coil meaning 80% of the discharge is happening to far away from the rotor magnets. The idea behind adding a coil of let's say 16 awg and 30 turns or more on about 1/2" on the bigger coil magnet end, then to put it in series with the bigger coil is that when the magnet approaches, the smaller coil will not have enough wind to really charge from the magnet passage, but it will have less resistance to receive the bigger coils discharge and hence concentrate that discharge energy to be closest to the rotor magnet.
Or instead of winding it on the existing bigger coil wind it on a smaller diameter and place it on the next magnet position of same polarity (but no core) so it is alone in that position and placed closest possible to the magnet passage. Capture with the bigger and concentrate it with the smaller.
@LarryC
Very good observation.
Quote from: supermuble on August 16, 2009, 02:35:49 PM
Could you explain more simply what happens in the coil core?
Normally when the north pole of the magnet approaches the core a south
pole is generated in the core.
Ignoring Lenz for a moment...
the magnet is attracted in but retarded on the withdrawal. (no gain)
With a shorted coil, a north pole is generated on approach which retards
the approach but expedites the withdrawal. (still no gain)
The search should be then for the optimum condition that would let it approach unshorted and be shorted at TDC or some similar method to
actually drive the rotor.
I attempted this with diodes but shorting at TDC caused the full polarity
change for both halves of the cycle and so I was defeated....
Possibly there "might" be a certain speed... a certain inductance... where
more than just core loss reduction is exceeded... but as yet no one has
hit that mark or published actual numbers that can be replicated.
Ron
Ok, so coil polarity changes 180 degrees when shorted? That means my diagrams are exaggerated, but they aren't wrong. If the shorted coil reverses it's current, then Lenz's law is effectively inverted. I imagine that at extremely high speeds (explosive speeds), the phase change has to be more extreme. That's why I drew the diagram. Inductors do not behave the same way at all speeds, and of course, a certain speed can be reached where the coil cannot respond in an equal and opposite way. We already know this.
If you find that Lenz's law behaves DIFFERENTLY at different speeds, it means that you can change Lenz's law. This is a clear violation of the law of conservation of energy, and it is a great starting point. To me, it is all the proof we need.
Anything is possible. Just because it hasn't been proven doesn't mean it isn't possible. Everything is possible. Limitations serve no purpose except to make people feel smart.
@I_ron,
Hello,
i have carefully read the pics you posted and i am a bit confused.
What is the bottom line of your findings regarding a coil's behaviour in Perepiteia mode, when:
* unshorted
* shorted
* under load that restricts current
Can you explain it in simple term, since i naver possessed a scope and not be accustomed to its terminology?
Regards,
Baroutologos
ps: it seems after all, that i can use your help :)
I have a few questions.
You did not talk about current in this explanation at all. Current is what makes the magnetic field, not voltage, right?
Your explanation at the end makes no sense whatsoever, at least not to me. No offense. How can the external field be reduced, and core drag reduced, and then Lenz's law drag INCREASED. I don't understand what you are trying to say.
If you short a coil, you have a stronger external field, and stronger magnetic drag because of Lenz's law. It's pretty simple.
Thank you very much I_ron for the lively presentation of what happens between a magnet and a coil!
Ok i am not that noob. I know the basics. I just wanted to know your findings regarding the discrepancies observed between a shorted coil and a loaded coil in "Perepiteia" mode.
It seems like we deal with some kind of mystery, yet.
Apart form voltage creation. When coil is shorted a smooth, Lenzless, action is present.
When loaded, this smoothness goes away, drag manifests that is proportional to real load applied and have to pay each watt out.
Reasons still unknown for that. Neither coil's turns help to offset this from happening.
Anyway, thanks again
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: i_ron on August 21, 2009, 11:12:39 PM
Now contrast that with the erroneous statement made earlier by the inventor…
Can you see the discrepancy? What I have stated can be verified, by you or anyone. It is common sense. It just IS. You don’t need a scope… just an analog meter will do, connect your meter to the coil/core lying on the bench and rapidly move a neo up to it. The meter will give a blip and stop when you stop. Zero motion equals zero induced voltage. Now pull the neo quickly away from the coil/core and you should see a blip in the opposite direction. Exactly as I have stated.
I will let Thane have the final word…
Regards, Ron
THERE CAN NEVER BE ANY "REAL" FINAL WORD WHEN DEALING WITH A CLOSED MIND.QuoteZero motion equals zero induced voltage
THIS CORRECT INFORMATION - IT JUST DOES NOT APPLY IN ANT WAY AT ALL - IT IS LIKE A GRADE 1 STUDENT TRYING TO EXPLAIN - QUANTUM PHYSICS - YOU ONLY GET TINY FRACTION OF THE WHOLE STORY.
NOW REPEAT YOUR EXPERIMENT WITH:
1) A
SHORTED HIGH VOLTAGE COIL
2)
ABOVE THE CRITICAL FREQUENCY
3) SUCH THAT THE INDUCED VOLTAGE IS
STORED IN THE COIL'S PARASITIC CAPACITANCE
4) BECAUSE THE COIL'S IMPEDANCE DOES
NOT ALLOW CURRENT TO FLOW.
A CORRECT EVALUATION IS BOTH ABOVE YOUR UNDERSTANDING AND DESIRE - IN FACT IF YOU TRULY HAD THE DESIRE (AND AN OPEN MIND) THE UNDERSTANDING WOULD EVENTUALLY FOLLOW - THAT IS METAPHYSICS - SOMETHING ELSE YOU CLEARLY DON'T UNDERSTAND EITHER.
THAT'S MY "NOT SO-FINAL" FINAL WORD.
T
Quote from: baroutologos on August 22, 2009, 05:07:54 AM
Ok i am not that noob. I know the basics. I just wanted to know your findings regarding the discrepancies observed between a shorted coil and a loaded coil in "Perepiteia" mode.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Baroutologos,
Yes, I have followed your work and know you have a good understanding.
My little little "coil/magnet 101" was for the many on the list that seem to be a bit unclear as to what is happening and let statements, like my quote, go unchallenged.
Keep up the good work,
Ron
Quote from: supermuble on August 22, 2009, 01:48:39 AM
I have a few questions.
You did not talk about current in this explanation at all. Current is what makes the magnetic field, not voltage, right?
Your explanation at the end makes no sense whatsoever, at least not to me. No offense. How can the external field be reduced, and core drag reduced, and then Lenz's law drag INCREASED. I don't understand what you are trying to say.
If you short a coil, you have a stronger external field, and stronger magnetic drag because of Lenz's law. It's pretty simple.
Super,
It is a complex reaction taking place and you are quite correct, current flow is of prime importance. But in the interests of laying a basic ground work that we could build on I kept the explanation as simple as possible. As you know, voltage is a first necessity, first you have voltage, then current can flow.
I felt comfortable in leaving out current as I had already posted the resultant flux field between a shorted and unshorted coil previously.
This confirms what I said, that the field reverses and is reduced at the same time, for a shorted coil.
I did the experiment one time also with a single HV shorted coil with a sense coil winding over top of the HV winding. The external field is/was
practically nonexistent. Just do the experiment. I will accept different results as long as the conditions are stated.
Two and three were answers to separate questions, are you running them together?
Ron
@ ALL,
I-RON HAS HIS OWN THREAD NOW - FOR HIS DISCUSSION AND TEST DATA.
ANY POST NOT PERTAINING DIRECTLY TO REPLICATION OF THE GENERATOR OR TRANSFORMER WILL BE REMOVED MONDAY. TO PRESERVE THEM I SUGGEST CUTTING AND PASTING.
T
I thought core drag was very minimal, so minimal that it isn't even worth discussing?
If you spin an unloaded generator, there is not enough core drag to really notice right? Doesn't the attraction energy IN almost equal the energy drag OUT?
Quote from: supermuble on August 22, 2009, 01:48:39 AM
I have a few questions.
You did not talk about current in this explanation at all. Current is what makes the magnetic field, not voltage, right?
Your explanation at the end makes no sense whatsoever, at least not to me. No offense. How can the external field be reduced, and core drag reduced, and then Lenz's law drag INCREASED. I don't understand what you are trying to say.
If you short a coil, you have a stronger external field, and stronger magnetic drag because of Lenz's law. It's pretty simple.
You lack some knowledge about particular coil conditions if you will and go by the way you think things suppose to work.
I have found this same info at several other independant sites explaining what happens with shorted coils and how they act.
Shorted coil becomes like sort of a capacitor. It charges up when magnet approaches and discharges when magnet moves away. There is very little curent flow in shorted coil. (0.5 amps @ 0V) in my case. When coil is shorted you almost do not use any magnetic fields.
ABOVE critical rpm - shorted coil acts as "infinite" CAPACITOR wich is charged and discharged with little losses. Cap charging/discharging does not induce severe losses does it? :)
BELOW critical rpm - shorted coils goes into INDUCTOR mode and thats where you start to waste power. Inductor charging/discharging @ low frequency creates significant losses and drag.
As long as coil is at capacitor mode there is very litle drag on rotor but if you load it - coil looses capacitor mode and becomes simple lenz obeying inductor.
Minde
Now that was a better explanation. Great info.
I am a bit baffled by the fact that the shorted coil has low current flowing through it? How can this be?
You can't use the coil to power a load, but you can use the coil to accelerate the rotor. So you could use shorted coils to enhance system performance, and since there is little current in the coil - there is no heat and no waste energy.
Why can't we tap the coil and use the current from it?
Forgive me if I sound ignorant, but here is one idea:
If the load was a 0.50 ohm or 1.0 ohm transformer primary, then surely we could tap the load, and use the AC current to perform work, while still retaining the characteristics of the shorted coil. If you were to draw power from the secondary on a transformer, it would lower the reactance in the primary, and if using thick wire on the primary, it would simulate a direct short, would it not?
@Minde,
We have made this conversation before. You are right about the feeling Minde. It behaves like a cap charging/discharging BUT it's not a cap. Is it?
My 10-fillar coils (parallel connected with non-existant residual capacitance) have 1,5-2 amps oscillating in them (depends gap). With a cap applied current goes up to 3,5 amps with virtually no decellaration. Voltage is low also. (58 vac at 1500 rpm)
What is that? No current? Its more that enough i would say.
...........
Again in your setup of, if i recall well, its biffilar 27AWG at 70 ohnms? OK something like that. Try passing some 0,4 amps through your coil by series connecting two batteries or more.
You would see that there is a strong, stationary of course, magnetic field created by the dc current. IF the oscillating current can create more or less the same field in opposition to the rotor, your motor swiftly would decelerate instead of speedup.
Bottom line, we should search deeper why this phenomenon happens. That's my current view.
................
@Supermumble,
Spectacular mey be -till now- no one has any usefull usage for this phenomenon. Rotor without coils around has a higher rpm than with accelerating coils present.
If you put an transformer with low ohmage, as you say, you would require to the other side also at full short also for acceleration to be maintained. If you apply resistace to extract some energy.. the primary will see it as impedance rise and, bye bye acceleration.
Practically, you can extract some energy before kicking your coils to Lenz zone, (see Mr T transformers) but till today this is nowhere close to input energy rerquired.
In my setup, using a high efficiency motor (76%) i could extract some 5-7 watts while it consumes some 40 watts. Still far less than input required with coils around.
I do not want to discourage you. On the contrary, i urge you by all means to be involved and help out! Follow mr T's guidelines for fast results.
We are waiting your contribution.
Regards,
Baroutologos
@Ron,
It seems that most people (including me) will not be satisfied with your explanation until a current wave shape is shown. I don't know if you have a current probe, but I do know that a current probe for an oscilloscope can be quiet expensive. I needed one recently for another project and found this site http://scienceshareware.com/how-to-measure-AC-DC-current-with-a-hall-effect-clamp-.htm.
I got the CSLA2CD from digikey and it works great for under $20. You just need to add multiple wire turns to the clamp for low MA work.
Regards, Larry
Quote from: LarryC on August 22, 2009, 07:06:32 PM
@Ron,
It seems that most people (including me) will not be satisfied with your explanation until a current wave shape is shown. I don't know if you have a current probe, but I do know that a current probe for an oscilloscope can be quiet expensive. I needed one recently for another project and found this site http://scienceshareware.com/how-to-measure-AC-DC-current-with-a-hall-effect-clamp-.htm.
I got the CSLA2CD from digikey and it works great for under $20. You just need to add multiple wire turns to the clamp for low MA work.
Regards, Larry
Larry, I get a "page not found" for the link. But I have a good idea as to it's
contents. Check out my paper on this subject at Syscom...'application notes'
http://www.syscompdesign.com/current-measurement.pdf
You are now in a good position though to do this very measurement! I look
forward to seeing your results posted.
Regards,
Ron
Quote from: i_ron on August 23, 2009, 01:28:06 PM
You are now in a good position though to do this very measurement! I look forward to seeing your results posted.
Don't understand the site problem, but these should work:
http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Honeywell%20Sensing%20&%20Control/Web%20Photos/CSLA2CD.jpg
and:
http://sccatalog.honeywell.com/pdbdownload/images/csla2cd.pdf
Much easier, circuitry is built in, just add power source and go.
I am not setup to do that test, no high ohm bifilar coil and my rotor is not balanced well enough to safely go above 1600. I still have the old Lee Valley wheel. If I get off my other project, I will try to get setup later.
Regards, Larry
@TH
Don't know if you ever saw this patent from our dearly departed @JH.
It may help open a whole new avenue and take this to a next level.
http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/Inventors/Jack%20W%20Hildenbrand/patent-7453341/
Click on US7453341.pdf.
You can also go up one level and see some photos.
Basically, he takes either two 20 lbs pull magnets and gets 80 lbs pull force or he does it with one magnet and one coil.
So imagine if the 80 lbs pull force will also give you 80 lb repulsion force if the coil is timed to pulse as it leaves a generator core maximizing repulsion spin.
Also may be useful for your transformer builds.
Anyways just another angle.
wattsup
@Watsup
Nice post there. Even tho off topic but its great additional info everyone could definately use.
"Closed loop" magnetic fields do interesting things. Worth to explore.
Minde
Quote from: wattsup on August 25, 2009, 08:07:25 AM
snip...
http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/Inventors/Jack%20W%20Hildenbrand/patent-7453341/
Click on US7453341.pdf.
snip...
wattsup
Thanks for posting that interesting info.
Cheers
Quote from: wattsup on August 25, 2009, 08:07:25 AM
@TH
Don't know if you ever saw this patent from our dearly departed @JH.
It may help open a whole new avenue and take this to a next level.
http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/Inventors/Jack%20W%20Hildenbrand/patent-7453341/
Click on US7453341.pdf.
You can also go up one level and see some photos.
Basically, he takes either two 20 lbs pull magnets and gets 80 lbs pull force or he does it with one magnet and one coil.
So imagine if the 80 lbs pull force will also give you 80 lb repulsion force if the coil is timed to pulse as it leaves a generator core maximizing repulsion spin.
Also may be useful for your transformer builds.
Anyways just another angle.
wattsup
Good post Wattsup, somewhat similar to the Flynn patent, which also works. You might be interested in my experiments on the Hilden Brand,,,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5prfWVc--dc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYcskBvSg6Q
Ron
Quote from: supermuble on August 22, 2009, 01:21:26 PM
I thought core drag was very minimal, so minimal that it isn't even worth discussing?
If you spin an unloaded generator, there is not enough core drag to really notice right? Doesn't the attraction energy IN almost equal the energy drag OUT?
In my tests all cores have drag. In this case the core drag could be 5 to 15 watts, for each core. This is accumulative, so with a machine of say 10 cores, the drag could be 50 to 150 watts drag penalty. That Thanes machine has drag is obvious in that with two or three cores it wont start without the cores on a movable door which is moved into position after the machine has reached a certain RPM. Same with the California machine with the cores on a rail.You are correct in that attract in force is nearly balanced by retard out force but this does not address Hysteresis loss, which is the major portion thereof.
This is one point that T has never addressed, despite repeated requests.
As I have said so many times, the rotor should be run up with no cores present... then a second reading with the cores in place. Then it is possible to see how much the core drag is reduced with the shorted HV coil. To be OU, as T has stated, the drag must be lower than the first baseline reading. I have never seen this in my experiments.
If anybody has... then please post your results!
Ron
Quote from: i_ron on August 26, 2009, 06:29:07 PM
As I have said so many times, the rotor should be run up with no cores present... then a second reading with the cores in place. Then it is possible to see how much the core drag is reduced with the shorted HV coil. To be OU, as T has stated, the drag must be lower than the first baseline reading. I have never seen this in my experiments.
Ron
The large core losses are only modestly mitigated by the HV coils.
Running with no cores/coils = X watts input
w/ cores/coils = X+Y (to overcome core losses, and Y, as you mention, is large)
w/ cores and shorted HV coils = X+Y-HV(small)
w/ cores and HV/HC coils = X+Y-HV+HC (call it Z)
X < Z
What is X divided by Z? Less than .5? (50%)
Quote from: capthook on August 27, 2009, 12:15:32 AM
The large core losses are only modestly mitigated by the HV coils.
Running with no cores/coils = X watts input
w/ cores/coils = X+Y (to overcome core losses, and Y, as you mention, is large)
w/ cores and shorted HV coils = X+Y-HV(small)
w/ cores and HV/HC coils = X+Y-HV+HC (call it Z)
X < Z
What is X divided by Z? Less than .5? (50%)
@Capthook .... That seems to sums it all up ;) For the moment ... LOL KneeDeep
Cheers
I am afraid a dead-end has been reached in this direction and a break-through is required.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Quote from: hoptoad on August 27, 2009, 06:46:55 AM
@Capthook .... That seems to sums it all up ;) For the moment ... LOL KneeDeep
Cheers
But it has been great fun, and a learning experience. I have met some really great fellow experimenters. What better in life?
I posted this video on youtube back in March. It was never disputed or corrected by the inventor in all this time. So my procedures and results I assume to be correct...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UUXGvQ3q8s
1) I establish a base line, 96 watts
2) I show the unshorted coil/core draw... 148 watts
3) I short the coil, the draw is reduced to... 123 watts
Acceleration is a myth, an artifact of the Ryobi. any motor of this type will accelerate when unloaded, simple as that.
But not unsurprisingly it does fit exactly Caphook's formula!
(What is X divided by Z? Less than .5? (50%))
Take Care,
Ron
Perhaps of interest?
Ron P
Quote: "Re: [jlnlabs] MAGNETIC PATH CLOSED ELECTRIC GENERATOR
Hi Stefan
Looks like chinese are catching up.
This is my page posted and brought to attention to JN Labs members in
February 2006.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/slavek.krepelka/ttf2/fields8.htm
Of course it's doable.
With kind regards, SLavek
Stefan Sundström wrote:
>
>
>
> United States Patent Application 20090200892
> Kind Code A1
> LIU; GANG August 13, 2009
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> MAGNETIC PATH CLOSED ELECTRIC GENERATOR"
Quote from: i_ron on August 31, 2009, 10:08:16 PM
Perhaps of interest?
Ron P
Quote: "Re: [jlnlabs] MAGNETIC PATH CLOSED ELECTRIC GENERATOR
Hi Stefan
Looks like chinese are catching up.
This is my page posted and brought to attention to JN Labs members in
February 2006.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/slavek.krepelka/ttf2/fields8.htm
Of course it's doable.
With kind regards, SLavek
Stefan Sundström wrote:
>
>
>
> United States Patent Application 20090200892
> Kind Code A1
> LIU; GANG August 13, 2009
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> MAGNETIC PATH CLOSED ELECTRIC GENERATOR"
Interesting indeed.!
Cheers
Hi
what commercially available material has the highest flux density - saturation value ?
I found 2.3 Tesla so far...
Thanx
Quote from: aladinlamp on September 01, 2009, 11:04:02 AM
Hi
what commercially available material has the highest flux density - saturation value ?
I found 2.3 Tesla so far...
Thanx
I think what you are looking for is "permeability". If so, would 100 Teslas be good?:
"The material with the highest magnetic permeability is Metglas Magnetic Alloy 2714A (Cobalt-based) [8] with a high frequency annealed permeability of 1,000,000 (Maximum DC Permeability (µ)). Hydrogen annealed (pure iron - N5 grade) can have a permeability of 160,000 (µ) but is very expensive."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeability_(electromagnetism)#Values_for_some_common_materials
Quote from: 0c on September 01, 2009, 11:54:03 AM
I think what you are looking for is "permeability". If so, would 100 Teslas be good?:
"The material with the highest magnetic permeability is Metglas Magnetic Alloy 2714A (Cobalt-based) [8] with a high frequency annealed permeability of 1,000,000 (Maximum DC Permeability (µ)). Hydrogen annealed (pure iron - N5 grade) can have a permeability of 160,000 (µ) but is very expensive."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeability_(electromagnetism)#Values_for_some_common_materials
Well i meant magnetic field per area, which is measured in Teslas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_flux
When no more flux can be accomodated in the core, saturation occurs.
So what i am looking for is material which can accomodate maximum flux in same area per square meter.
The SI unit of magnetic flux is the weber (in derived units: volt-seconds), and the unit of magnetic field is the weber per square meter, or tesla.
I think permeability is a measure of how easy magnetic flux propagates thru the volume of the core.
Magnetic flux cares only about cross section, square meter of the core.
At least thats how i understand it.
Metglas Magnetic Alloy 2714A
General Properties & Characteristics
ELECTROMAGNETIC
Saturation Induction (T) 0.57 Tesla
Metglass etc. offer very high permeability, but very low saturation.
2.4 T is quite good. What material are you referring to that is 2.3 T?
Plain old 1018 steel (cheap/easily sourced) is 2.43 T (very good) but relatively low permeability.
Iron/Cobalt alloys offer both high saturation and high permeability, but are expensive, harder to source, and should be fully annealed for best performance.
See attached pics.
(P.S. PERMENDUR 2V would be a good material and can be sourced from hightempmetals
http://www.hightempmetals.com/hightemp/hitemp12.php#A038)
Quote from: capthook on September 01, 2009, 02:58:28 PM
Metglass etc. offer very high permeability, but very low saturation.
2.4 T is quite good. What material are you referring to that is 2.3 T?
Plain old 1018 steel (cheap/easily sourced) is 2.43 T (very good) but relatively low permeability.
Iron/Cobalt alloys offer both high saturation and high permeability, but are expensive, harder to source, and should be fully annealed for best performance.
See attached pics.
(P.S. PERMENDUR 2V would be a good material and can be sourced from hightempmetals
http://www.hightempmetals.com/hightemp/hitemp12.php#A038)
Hi
i meant Hiperco-50
If i use high saturation material with low permeability in static configurations with permanent magnets, it should not be a problem right?
If magnet is 1.5T, the 1018 steel core will recieve 1.5T as well, right...?
2.Do you know any company company, which offers 1018 steel sheets or laminates ?
Thanx
Just for info
A real:
N42 magnet is: 1.3T
and a N52 magnet is: 1.45T
Quote from: aladinlamp on September 01, 2009, 05:38:52 PM
2.Do you know any company company, which offers 1018 steel sheets or laminates ?
Thanx
Metal Supermarkets, or Online Metals...
10 is for iron (steel) and the 18 stands for .18% carbon.
All cold rolled is generally 1018 and comes in rounds squares and flats, (plate)
But are you sure this is what you want? I doubt it is used for laminations.
Ron
Quote from: Nali2001 on September 01, 2009, 06:15:13 PM
Just for info
A real:
N42 magnet is: 1.3T
and a N52 magnet is: 1.45T
1.yes i said 1.5 just for illustration. Is S54 strongest these days ?
2.What parameter tells me how well the material looses its magnetism once external field is turned off. Is it also permeability ? Lower the value, more magnetism it retains ?
Read this page on "Retentivity":
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/electromagnetism/magnetic-hysteresis.html (http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/electromagnetism/magnetic-hysteresis.html)
Understanding the hysteresis or Bh curve will show you material behavior.
See the attached image:
Where it says "hard ferromagnetic material" You can see from the curve (very wide) that such material is very much like a permanent magnet. Once you remove an input power the core tends to remain magnetized. Until the negative ac sine part will forcefully flip the magnetization orientation.
How 'easy' a core looses its magnetism also depends on the core geometry. A perfect close looped core tends to retain more magnetism then an open core.
A video: (never mind the text - originally it was part of a bigger video)
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/CoreTests.wmv (http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/CoreTests.wmv)
Microwave oven transformer cores are pretty crappy. But grain oriented M4 silicon steel C cores are pretty good. Get them here: http://www.alphacoredirect.com (http://www.alphacoredirect.com)
As this unit appears to have a similar effect to the Perepiteia I thought I would post the video here.
Video from DaveMichaelRogers1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OHxzT61nyU
I have no more information on the unit
cat
@Cat,
I have been extensively involved in the theoretic level :) at Energetic Forum, Bedini's Replication of Kromrey Converter generator.
Yes, as Thane's Perepiteia, the converter accelerates under short.
Actually this fact is so mundane, that can be found in too many FE patents and devices, being difficult to say who discovered it in the first place.
................
The interesting thing is that with a mild load applied it accelarates in comparison to unshorted (too coggy) state.
The real issue is: IF the energy outputed by the lightbulb is greater by the energy consumed from prime mover by the cogging alone. (with lightbulb on)
So far indications say not. He claims also a 50% cop. (motor input vs bulb output) Good figure but not even close...
Thane has managed to have his Ruyobi run at 120-90 watts and giving out 35-50 bulb-watts through transformers.
Regards,
Baroutologos
Looks like thane is still working this nut;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoqTvWnasFA
so does the Perepiteia really works?
As every noobie, you have the right to learn. Perepiteia does not work. Dors one odd thing, but that's it.
If it worked i would have been in business by now :)
This thread really had died.
Baroutologos
my english is not too well yet... i spent few weeks to read all pages about T's device... but here is lot of mess, some say it works, some it does not, like everywhere...
New Thane Heins video posted last week:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBf5XIXSvmY
How's it going Thane?
Glad to see you still working at it.....miss 'ya....
Quote from your video description:
'The Work Energy Principle states that to increase the kinetic energy of a rotor - work must be done on that rotor'
OR, you can:
DECREASE the LOAD on a rotor to increase the kinetic energy of a rotor.
as it applies to your case.
You start with a large load - the large HV/HC cores.
Shorting the HV coils reduces the load/drag of the cores.
System performance improves over initial state of large load cores.
However, the initial state performance with the large load/drag cores was so poor to begin with.
Yes you can increase your very poor inital performance to a less-poor state with what you are doing.
But in the end, starting with a more efficient performance would be superior.
The core-to-coil ratio seems excessive, like maybe a core 10x smaller.
Once again, it all comes down to power out/power in = efficiency
What is your latest efficiency % ? 50% ? Less?
A small hydro plant generator has an efficiency range from 93% to 97%.
@guys
Sorry to pull up this thread being so inactive since a good while but I have a question and this would be the best place for it in my book.
OK, in @THs devices he is using his magnets on the rotor with one north, the next south, the next north, etc., and some of you had made the build accordingly.
My question is, do any of you know what the result would be if the magnets were all north or all south, with the coils being either air core or with a core. I am presently looking at a few new angles to consider lenzless power production and any answers here would help. If you need any more further details, please post here.
wattsup
@ wattsup, not too got with lenz law but what if you rotated the flux of a magnet without moving the magnet or the coil in proximity to the magnet, if you think it could work I have a suggestion.
Quote from: phoneboy on March 16, 2010, 09:52:45 PM
@ wattsup, not too got with lenz law but what if you rotated the flux of a magnet without moving the magnet or the coil in proximity to the magnet, if you think it could work I have a suggestion.
@phoneboy
If your idea is to use a magnet with a coil wrapped on it and the coil is used to moved the magnets field in a way to cause its field to move near another coil, this has been tried and tried many times. It is very very difficult and energy consuming to do this since the magnetic field is strong and stable and you will require so much energy in the pulse coil. Even then, the magnet field will still be very hard to move.
My idea is simply to keep the north on one side of a rotor and hence the south will be on the other side and then to put air coils on each side of the rotor all the way around. The north and south air coils are positioned so that when the rotor turns, the north magnet hits the north air coils then continues further so the south magnet hits the south air coil always after it hits the north side. This way you get your positive produced on one side of the rotor, then the negative on the other side of the rotor, then the positive, then the negative, etc. More analogous to the workings of a battery or a capacitor having its separate plates and the rotor simply providing a moving dielectric.
This way the magnets never have to make any of the air coils go from positive to negative. This cuts out at least 50% of the impending drag.
Also since the air coils do not have an iron laminated core, the magnets will not need to engaged in any magnet to iron attraction that helps from one side but hinders from the other when it is time to break the attraction.
If each air coil is then connected to the other via individual diodes, then the air coil cannot hold its charge while the magnet is off the coil. This makes re-entering of the magnet field over the air coils very easy after each pulse is generated.
Sort of like "make the juice and extract it right away". This does not allow the produced power to grow in the air coils and hence, they cannot maintain any magnetism that will hinder the rotation of the rotor.
If you consider that motor drag is more the result of non-extracted energy from the rotor/stator relation. Even in an alternator, the coils are placed in series and the bridge rectifier is placed at the end of all the coils. So the coils still can maintain a mutual energy storage between them and this causes added drag for the rotor. If the energy can be extracted right away, it is like each air coil will restart from the zero point after each magnet passage and will not be able to mutually hold a charge with the other air coils, thus the rotor magnets will be free to rotate without drag, or very minimal drag.
But I need to know if anyone has every tried putting the same polarity magnets on one side of a rotor and what the result was.
Anyways, let me work on this a little more. But I am so busy learning with other stuff on the table right now, I just thought someone would already have tried this in some way and could provide some additional insight either for or against the idea is OK with me.
Quote from: wattsup on March 16, 2010, 11:20:23 AM
My question is, do any of you know what the result would be if the magnets were all north or all south, with the being either air core or with a core. I am presently looking at a few new angles to consider lenzless power production and any answers here would help. If you need any more further details, please post here.
wattsup
Hey man, long time no see :)
Ahhh.. you are not paying attention! If you go back-back this thread, my first perepiteia replication looked lika a Bedini free energy generator. (since i wanted to cross check both ideas for common points) It was actually six double stacked neo-magnets all N out. (I had a similar rotor with six double stacked ferrite magnets all N out to check for any major differences and for wanted a efficient motor running perepiteia mode)
The "perepiteia effect" is indeed there even with the 6 all north magnets out, but happens at higher rpm range and is feebler than the traditional NSNS configuration.
Aircore tried and did not respond at all. At least in my setups and my experimental RPM range (0-3000 rpm of 12 NSNS magnets)
...
This "Peripeteia effect" is one of the few peculiar effects that can be met in this area of study. All claimed G-field generators (Kromarey, Bedini, Ekclin etc) exhibit this effect.
It has nothing to do with coil's impedance delaying the current as i have demonstrated (and Thane insisted rather) than the manipulation of the magnetic field (aether22 and latter i study the same effect with few turns coils being multifillar)
One of the more satisfying yet draft explanations i have been suggested is that in this effect the coils attain some short of resonance or behave as "magnetic capacitors".
In practical terms, when current circulates upon a dead short, the cogging effect is diminished. Upon enforcing resistance or impedance to the circuit, Lenz kicks in. (it is quite different than the diminished cogging effect as Lenz drag is smooth while initial cogging is not)
Anyway, appart from theories, no energy can be extracted from this setup unless paid for it. So far of course... :)
By the way, i guess you understand what i am talking about. Right?
@baroutologos
Yes I understand fully what you are saying and also my limited time available because of other works, pushed me to pick your brains for some quick feedback on this idea. With great thanks I must add.
I also understand you had done some tests with all north. Back in January of 2009 I posted a diagram of a design that I am now modifying and putting below to better show you my idea.
By putting the magnets in the rotor so all face North to the right and South to the left, each of the coil sides will only pick up one polarity. Each coil side will not have to deal with both polarities hence the pull and push effect will be greatly diminished.
When you consider what load is on a generator and why under greater load a generator is subjected to drag, I have noticed that in most cases the load is not placed in the right sequence of events or should I say in the most preferential position. We turn a generator and place our load on the output and then wonder why the hell the generator is stubbornly slowing down when we turn up a rheostat on a bank of light bulbs.
We make a generator with any array of coils, we then put them in series or parallel and then we put a bridge rectifier at the generator output if we want DC or we leave it as a direct to load connection if we want AC. Bingo, the check mate situation has already taken place and anything you try to do will not work because either way, the coils are bundled together in the build and will mutually increase in tension and pressure (voltage and amperage) and this increase will stay in the coils and impart back to the rotor as drag.
Now in the case below, if each of those coils were dioded before they are placed in series or parallel, then the energy cannot stay in the coil. It leaves the coil and cannot return, so the coil cannot see an increase in any mutual coil flux hence it should not impart back to the rotor as drag.
Now the idea here is not to make the standard rotor/stator relation that directly produces your standard output as let's say 110 volts and 20 amps. The idea here is to produce 5000 volts at 1/2 amp, then once it is out of the generator, do what you want with it. Step down voltage and increase the amperage, etc.
Since the rotor would be turning between core-less coils that only handle one polarity, the energy required to turn it at very high speeds should be peanuts, compared to what you have to deal with in a traditional configuration. Especially when we already all know that at a given input power, higher rotor speed means lower torque.
But in any case, regardless if one should build it this way or in any other way, I am convinced that dioding each individual coil will result in much less developed drag in all cases. Granted the output may be in a different form, who cares. That would be a beautiful problem to have.
Anyways, as long as I have this in writing on the forum, I can refer back to it for furtherance. I will look to make a small scale testing on this idea simply because there are so many motor builders in the world and the advent of a simple solution/build could be a good help to the OU needs of the world as another way, because there is more then one way. lol
I would like to thank you again for your input and wish you to keep well.
possible energy extraction
jake
Hey wattup.
If i am not mistaken, you suggest air-core coils for drag alleviation, yet stronger magnets/ higher rpm speeds for manifesting the effect... who knows? But mechanical setups are beyond my reach plus too expensive to really experiment with...
...
I have been thinking some time ago, but did not give it a try, to make it the Perepiteia effect solid state and study it. I mean what actualy the magnet does anyway?
It creates an alternating polarity magnetic field. Nothing else. The same hold true for a transformer core or toroid with two windings.
i do not know if the effect is preserved this way. That above a certain frequency and certain turns of a coil, a transformer can manifest this effect. If not rest assure it has only to do with cogging torque elimination as primarily suspected.
If not, the same scheme can be further be enhanced by making a multiturns (mutlifillar i suggest for higher amperage yet having the effect) secondary and a normal primary transformer ala Tesla type going to KHz rate.
But my hopes are low this way, because I have conducted some preliminary resonance experiments with a multifilar coil that manifested the Perepiteia effect. Under resonance the effect is NOT manifested and it acts as a normal coil.
Anyway, it does not hurt to try a solid state approach anyway i guess.
...
Concerning the diode-plug extracting energy. I have been tried that extensively. see www.energetiforum.com, renewable energy and examine the Kromrey convertor thread.
I have actually made 2 cap-banks for cap adjustment and 2 diode plugs with theri own voltage sensors -optocoupler-SCR.
Nothing there. No OU.
@lespaul109
Yes I am familiar with that circuit but in this case it would not be useful since there are not two polarities applied per coil but only one. A single diode exiting each coil at the right polarity end each should do it.
PS: Don't tell me. based on your user name you own a nice Gibson. lol
@baroutologos
Thanks for you kind reply. I know what you are saying is very true in the cases you mentioned.
I already have an alternator-motor-drive set-up so just to experiment with the general premise, I can test this by just modifying the alternator stator coils by removing them from the standard rectifier, putting the coils separate, dioding each one separate, then trying it with the drive motor. I have already tried the standard motor-alternator driving with this and already know the results are very bad so this way I can make a fair comparison with all coils dioded separately. Actually I can maybe bring out all the coil wires and put them on a switching system with standard rectifier and separate dioding and see the difference in real time. But I already know the effect of the later.
I have also thought about taking an alternator rotor, drilling the rotor triangles that push the polarities with one round whole each and placing a neo magnet in each hole according to their proper polarity then trying to generate juice. The mix of the existing rotor coil and magnets should make some real special effects added to a modifed stator.
Imagine if with a standard alternator and modified coils/diodes/rotor if this can work how easy it would be to get this out to the world. This is another angle of mine is trying to find easy workable solutions with what is already out there in order to speed the usage process, if in fact there is anything there.
Keep well.
wattsup
@mr. Watt
It seems to me that there would be an AC sine wave from the coils, if the magnets are NSNS
p.s.- Had to sell the lespaul ;)
Hi lespaul109
I wish I had sold my old 60's 335,before it was pinched!!
peter
Quote from: wattsup on March 25, 2010, 10:00:49 AM
@lespaul109
Yes I am familiar with that circuit but in this case it would not be useful since there are not two polarities applied per coil but only one. A single diode exiting each coil at the right polarity end each should do it.
snip
Wattsup,
The flaw in your all one polarity magnets facing out is this... one pole will generate a sine wave.
What causes the polarity of a coil is the DIRECTION of travel between the magnet and the coil. When the magnet approaches the coil it generates one polarity and when the magnet recedes it produces the opposite polarity.
Simple as that. We went over and over this point as even Mr T didn't get it.
Go back and look at my single magnet, single coil in the lathe and you can see that is always the case. There were several animated gifs posted also.
Now when you have a N S arrangement the coil/magnet spacing determines the shape of the sine wave as the N magnet pole is receding from the last coil it is generating say a positive sine and as it is approaching the next coil it is generating a positive sine and as the coils are wired anti phase the trick is to get this same sine to overlap and add. This is why a properly designed NSNS generator delivers twice the power
It is an impossibility to have positive coils on one side and negative coils on the other.
Kind regards
Ron P
Here is my setup so far. I realize it looks killer and a little like robot wars.....
it can be very dangers... :)
@lespaul109
If this is a take from my idea, those magnets should pass through plate so one side has north and those other side has south. But it is a very interesting take. I am just worried how those magnets would hold onto your plate and not fly around. I see you made those V grooves to hold the magnets in plase but they would still have to be really well glued.
@ALL
OK, guys are saying there is nothing to do with all north or all south oriented magnets. I found this youtube that may be of interest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g42hzVKIa0I&feature=channel
What do you see in this video that hits your eye. Near the end when he put a pick-up coil near the turning magnets.
Quote from: Zorro on March 28, 2010, 05:37:07 AM
it can be very dangers... :)
Indeed! ..rotor with spec ability to cut through the walls if gotten loose... ;D
Good to see you minde, I am envious of your rotor! Where did you find it? Maybe I could find something similar where I live.
jake
Acceleration! Got it!
Will post everything tomorrow...........excited!
Les
I have to say
I really like your rotor! [at the top of this page]
Its very manly and just SCREAMS,
"Yes this could be dangerous"
Sweet!
So.................. ??
Chet
here she is
INFO....
http://overunity.ifrance.com/
PEREPITEIA GENERATOR photo....
http://depositfiles.com/files/73kr87jhw
free energy fyles....
http://freeenergyinfo.narod2.ru/my_files/
ANTANAS
LITHUANIA
Thane's latest video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYi2OyS5cK4&feature=digest
Sadly, I also found this article http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3170
Regards, Larry
Hi folks, I wonder if it might be possible to achieve this effect in a solid state oscillator or self oscillator setup with say a permanent magnet interaction. If say we cant get the effect with a strictly stationary PM, maybe if the permanent magnet were able to vibrate or oscillate in some fashion it could be more solid state and not require a drive motor. Just thinking out loud here.
peace love light
That reminds me of the MRA by Norman & Joel.
Hi lespaul, it may be similar, but i dont think the mra uses any permanent magnets. I think the Thane Heins effect is partly what is happening in the TPU, so correlating these two devices would give a solid state model. Still thinking how a solid state version could be worked out.
peace love light
Tyson :)
The mra has a magnet core with the wire wrapped around it, also a peizo transducer.
Hello, great thread as concept itself!
As everything seems to be quite calculable im not sure about those coils..im noob btw.
Can anybody can drop some informations about those hc/hv coils?
What is exact difference in hc and hv coils? Second ones are from 2 gen hts material, and act as electromagnet?
That would cope with this nnss config. (m1-c1) (m3-c3) (m2-c2) (m4-c4)....a-b a-b
where c3 and c4 hts coils, and north aproaches at one time on c1 and c3 where c1 is hc coil and c3 hv coil.
do i understood?
cheers
have you watched all of his vids on youtube? they explain much about the 2 coils
this is my favorite:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3JVjbXOssQ
Yes i did, but they still left me a bit currious, ive got exhausting answer from THE MAN himself hooray!
Its much cheaper than i was afraid of. Unbeliveable!
Cheers!! so happy..
My experience
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if i remmber correctly, I was only able to get out about 6-7 watts from this coil. I wrote thane and he told me to build another coil with 22AWG wire for higher output. I calculated the resistance/foot of his better coil, and I would need about 8 pounds, that is about $80 from my supplier which is a local electric motor repair shop. So I would suggest building one of his type if you are starting to replicate, learn from my design and save money.
Important info! Please read.
From what I have noticed, there is "NO" counter force made by taking electricity from the coil. There is however a counter force caused by the magnetic drag of the steel/iron core(large bolt in my case) this is proven because in my tests the motor does draw more current when the core is in front of the rotor with the coil "DISCONNECTED" than when it is not near the rotor at all. When the core is close and the coil is connected(producing usable electricity) the rotor does speed up(accelerate). So literally the drag of the core is reduced somehow by the field of the coil being connected. This effect increases with more energy being taken from the coil. In summary, if I make the larger coil(7-8lbs 22AWg 60ohms) which extracts more electricity, while using the same core(the only source of drag) it should reduce the core drag more and produce more output in watts.
sorry for the lengthy explaination, it's a lot to comprehend.
jake
This is fascinating as Thane states: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThaneCHeins#p/u/0/BjWiaFukXRE
Regards, Larry
yeah that video is wild!
Hi folks, Thane posted this:
QuoteNOW REPEAT YOUR EXPERIMENT WITH:
1) A SHORTED HIGH VOLTAGE COIL
2) ABOVE THE CRITICAL FREQUENCY
3) SUCH THAT THE INDUCED VOLTAGE IS STORED IN THE COIL'S PARASITIC CAPACITANCE
4) BECAUSE THE COIL'S IMPEDANCE DOES NOT ALLOW CURRENT TO FLOW.
Now my question is, has anyone experimented with air-core coils and achieved any of these effects. If what Thane says is accurate here, then it seems it should be possible. I thought I made a couple tests in the past and could not get the effect with air coils, however my rotor at that time was not alternating magnet poles and the magnets were not very close together, so I don't think they were good tests. I have a setup now that is more inline with Thanes, so the effect is more likely to manifest with what i have now. If anyone has had luck with air-core coils, I would greatly appreciate your feedback, thanks. Also, if nobody has been successful yet with air coils, why would that be, thanks.
peace love light
Tyson :)
how did your air coil test go?
Hello all :) new to this forum :)
i have built a couple radiant replicas, but the other day i heard of Thane Heins's magnet motor & in a couple days had one thrown together.
Here's a couple links to my two Perepiteia replication vids
Regenerative Acceleration Replication Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCSG-VjaQ6g&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrzMbSdQZlo&feature=channel_video_title
let me know what you think :)
MrClean
When I go to your links I get this?
This content is currently unavailable.The page you requested cannot be displayed right now. It may be temporarily unavailable, the link you clicked on may have expired, or you may not have permission to view this page.
â– Sign Up for Facebook
-----------------------
?
I'm not familiar with this .Do I have To sign Up to View??
Thanks
Chet
Damn, there must be a problem with copy/pasting on this forum. But my FB is open for all to view, i dont get it :T i'll re-post them in different format when i get home :(
-sorry for the run-around
However, if you look up kurt kaukinen's facebook page, it should be accessible.
-havent put up any youtubes yet,, soon tho
Quote from: mrclean on May 03, 2011, 04:39:13 PM
Hello all :) new to this forum :)
i have built a couple radiant replicas, but the other day i heard of Thane Heins's magnet motor & in a couple days had one thrown together.
Here's a couple links to my two Perepiteia replication vids
Regenerative Acceleration Replication Part 1
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1079243991#!/video/video.php?v=1872602329661
Part 2
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1079243991#!/video/video.php?v=1879487341782&comments
let me know what you think :)
Been there done it. Also I had a descent setup. You can find under my uploads.
You see shorted out coil acts like a magnetic flux capacitor so its like a spring - barely loads up a drive motor - almost no voltage almost no waste of heat.
Open coil works more or less like electric flux capacitor. Especially when I had my bifilars - at higher rpm voltage risises so high that its starts "leaking" between bifilar windings in form of ion wind or plasma formation. Bifilar and high voltage dont go together because there is a maximum voltage difference between adjacent turns of magnet wire. Should not exceed 1000 VAC ptp when working with bifilars. In any case many turn containing bifilar coil will start to slow your driving motor down after you reach higher frequency. Once you short it out it does unload a driver and rpm increase.
Personally I have not found anything "special" about this Perpetia scam.
Minde
Also AC induction motor is super deceiving in this case. DC motor will not exibit "accelerations" or "decelerations" in such a magnitude.
Mrclean
Btw,Welcome to the Forum!
We Need all the experimenters we can get around here!
Please see also Here!
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10518.msg284082#new
The above is a "Take Off" on Thanes work ,Thane is helping the inventer {Mavendex}with Patents,But Mavendex is Open Sourcing as well as assisting replicators!
1 "WATT" In 12 WATTS Out And rising..................
Chet
I more or less agree with Minde.
I have extensively been experimenting with Peripeteia setup. No free energy there. The only peculiar thing is that, a solid iron core next to spinning magnets posses a huge drag, even having not the coil loaded.
On the contrary, if it is shorted, yet, the impedance - resistance- frequency, allows minimum energy dissipation to coil's windings (or the relation of current and resistance), that circulating current alleviates to a great part that initial drag and whole system seems accelerating.
....
Lately for the needs of another experiment, i modified the Peripeteia rotor setup to spin past odd / even coils config, having minimum drag and coil's core to be made out of ferrite material. In other words, no losses.
I cannot achieve the Perepiteia effect there no matter what.
For me that thing, its explained and not ou.
got the vids on youtube now :)
RegenerativeAcceleration part1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCSG-VjaQ6g
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrzMbSdQZlo&feature=related
& i appreciate the welcome, i agree we need more ppl :)
Mrclean,
There is no regenerative acceleration... in Thanes setup my setup or your setup.
Dont fool yourself. Observe and learn.
Minde
Quote from: minde4000 on May 05, 2011, 11:03:52 AM
Mrclean,
There is no regenerative acceleration... in Thanes setup my setup or your setup.
Dont fool yourself. Observe and learn.
Minde
No offence taken Lol
hey Im no expert by any stretch, but if you can accelerate a rotor.. while powering Anything let alone a dead short.. bulbs only getting brighter with more demand.. AND lower the input watts while doing that.... please tell me what that is & what part of this is faulty.
Mrclean,
I did not try to offend anyone here sorry.
Here. You should take a look at this link and learn from others about thanes regenerative stuff.
Tons of details and info on how and why. You will find that there is no magic there... unfortunately.. (I wish there was)
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7530.360
Previous thanes topic: (crankypants=thane)
Minde
So Minde
Mrclean shared his research ,Can't you give a little more of an explanation on his findings being Mute?
He says he has a dead short {Zing] Bulbs getting brighter input decreasing?
Crankypants says he has the goods ,this works as advertised!You disagree?
Chet
@ Minde, lol not offended just jokin man, im still reading the past posts, you really did work a lot on the perepetia! as did prob a bunch of ppl, rotor may be too heavy, but looks good.
Except some of you guys give the impression this is a lost cause --"perepitia scam"?
I have personally witnessed acceleration while lighting a bulb &, thenfrom 1300 & decelerating...then dead short, to 3200rpm with a constant rise in the outter current winding voltage. this seems to do what it is supposed to, even tho my setup is very crude.
Im sure i'll eventually read from past posts why Minde & maybe others feel this way, but please explain, im really interested
i dont understand "ion wind" and stuff yet, but i understand input & output watts & accidentally turning things into magnetwire meltdown. Certainly if we cannot achieve more out than in, then yes it was pointless & there are more efficient ways to generate power.
-but until i hear Thane himself say it doesnt work, im convinced from what ive seen that it is viable.
Please share what the encountered problems were, died out, low output, magnet in the eye, etc..
Mrcleans set up looks like the parameters to go on ;) , i never thought thanes set up would be as easy as it looks, i think you have done well man and that we should try and replicate YOUR set up. Thanks for sticking at this.
sincerley
Ash
Quote from: mrclean on May 06, 2011, 07:07:41 PM
-but until i hear Thane himself say it doesnt work, im convinced from what ive seen that it is viable.
I tried hard to replicate his work. I even bought huge toroid like the one he had. As you can see laser cut parts .. N50 magnets..
Thane will NEVER say it does not work apperently. When I got a descebt picture on more or less how this system or "trick" works and why I pressed him to post out loud here if he has more out and less in. He NEVER answered this question. Instead there was chineses wisdom poetry posts or else. Question was given multiple times. I was dissapointed of his dishonesty and after not finding anything of interest or "free energy" I put the system away. I still have it in working order.
Everything is still there at old topic so you can always double check my side of the story.
Peace
Minde
Minde i wanted to thank you and Ron also for your hardest work yet. It impossible to work with most inventors the way it CAN be, dont take it hard, i appreciate your data and so do we all. Its a valid question still needing to be answered. Looks like we need Thane himself to answer this one, i cant see the reason to not answer you if he wants replications, maybe he wants to release it as regenerative commercial technology first. Maybe il try and talk to thane for you man, thanks a lot for your efforts, and Ron too!
Ash
Lol wow i appreciate those words :)
i dont know about replicating mine tho lol, there's already things id change, bigger gauge wire, closer spacing etc, but one thing i believed from the start was a lightweight rotor. Its strange because mine is Not magnetic, maybe alum or zinc? but there's good continuity from end to end of the diameter of the wheel, so im confident it is able to conduct/channel flux. (or whatever is going on:) plus its super light & very easy to accelerate. i just wish now i was using a 3 or 5hp motor.
In my opinion, whether or not this can be o/u, its most suited purpose is foremost a propulsion motor, not an electric generator.
People being dis-satisfied and looking for more than 30 watts per coil or whatever it was, while ignoring the usefulness of free acceleration, are being a bit greedy.
If you want big current for little input, build a tesla coil, & step it down, & call it a Don Smith device.
We are talking about a charging current, not an On-demand supply, right?
Getting ANY watts out is great if it doesnt drag the rpm, let alone provide charging AND some (free?) acceleration :P
( yes i still believe my acceleration hallucinations my motor keeps doing:) lol
Hey, what about shorting the HV coils by hooking up to the primary on a Bi-toroid???
Shorting while energizing the primary of the transformer:)
Thoughts?
Quote from: ashtweth_nihilisti on May 06, 2011, 07:17:35 PM
Mrcleans set up looks like the parameters to go on ;) , i never thought thanes set up would be as easy as it looks, i think you have done well man and that we should try and replicate YOUR set up. Thanks for sticking at this.
sincerley
Ash
Lol wow i appreciate those words
i dont know about replicating mine tho lol, there's already things id change, bigger gauge wire, closer spacing etc, but one thing i believed from the start was a lightweight rotor. Its strange because mine is Not magnetic, maybe alum or zinc? but there's good continuity from end to end of the diameter of the wheel, so im confident it is able to conduct/channel flux. (or whatever is going on:) plus its super light & very easy to accelerate. i just wish now i was using a 3 or 5hp motor.
In my opinion, whether or not this can be o/u, its most suited purpose is foremost a propulsion motor, not an electric generator.
People being dis-satisfied and looking for more than 30 watts per coil or whatever it was, while ignoring the usefulness of free acceleration, are being a bit greedy.
If you want big current for little input, build a tesla coil, & step it down, & call it a Don Smith device.
We are talking about a charging current, not an On-demand supply, right?
Getting ANY watts out is great if it doesnt drag the rpm, let alone provide charging AND some (free?) acceleration
( yes i still believe my acceleration hallucinations my motor keeps doing:) lol
Hey, what about shorting the HV coils by hooking up to the primary on a Bi-toroid???
Shorting while energizing the primary of the transformer:)
Thoughts?
Quote from: CRANKYpants on July 15, 2009, 06:30:01 AM
JUST CHECKING TO SEE IF YOU ARE ON TOP OF THINGS THERE BART? ;)
YES - PARALLEL WOUND-SERIES CONNECTED!
(I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT PART OF MY BRAIN I GUESS?)
WEIGHT = 1/2 - 1 LB
I SEEMS THEY CAN PRODUCE THE GREATEST ROTOR ACCELERATION w/ THE MOST OUTPUT POWER.
YOU NEED TO GET THE WIRE GAUGE LOWER IF YOU WANT TO GET POWER.
"SO FIRST YOU GET THE POWER"
"THEN YOU GET THE MONEY"
"THEN YOU GET THE WOMEN"
-Scarface
T
So g.d. good :P hillarious :)
Hi Kurt,
Thanks so much for the videos.
I have been following Thane's work but, could never see what was going on.
From your video, I finally understand - especially the part showing the "E" core.
I now need to understand the mechanism that would allow us to extract power from
this benefit.
Kind Regards, Penno
Quote from: penno64 on May 08, 2011, 05:52:00 PM
Hi Kurt,
Thanks so much for the videos.
I have been following Thane's work but, could never see what was going on.
From your video, I finally understand - especially the part showing the "E" core.
I now need to understand the mechanism that would allow us to extract power from
this benefit.
Kind Regards, Penno
:) no prob man, glad you enjoyed them, i say UM too much tho Lol
Minde4000 on youtube has some good ones i just watched.
I think i learned the most about the E core on the vid Thane addressed to NASA in Part 1, regarding the concentric bi-coil
@ 2:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czXmazZ4obs
You building anything perepetical yourself?
Maybe we will need to change the design of the generator...
Here is a patent about generating electricity without lenz drag http://www.free-energy-info.com/PatD27.pdf
Hi
i want to better understand what exactly happens in alternator regarding magnetic flux, lenz law, current, etc
assume you have 1 stationary shorted coil, just 1 magnet on the rotor and you make just 1 revolution
best way show all the action is single graph, where you show magnetic flux, induced emf and current on the same time line
can somebody show me such graph, where all units start at zero value and end up at zero value, with respect to time
just 1 magnet, 1 shorted coil, 1 revolution, 1 complet cycle on single graph
thanx
Boss
We need to talk...........PM
THX
Chet
Here are a couple of youtube videos where when more power is demanded or shorted
there is some sort of exceleration effect or less power is needed for the prime mover to maintain rpms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qcvUvk7tsU&feature=uploademail (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qcvUvk7tsU&feature=uploademail)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B750RHM9hTc&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B750RHM9hTc&feature=plcp)
This effect seems to be catching on. Thane may be on to something.
video ...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qcvUvk7tsU&feature=uploademail
no aceracion motor input = v / a ?
aceration motor input = v / a ?
Hi, can you tell me where I can learn how to make Bedine motor?
Regards,
kjp
Quote from: baroutologos on May 04, 2011, 02:28:40 AM
I more or less agree with Minde.
I have extensively been experimenting with Peripeteia setup. No free energy there. The only peculiar thing is that, a solid iron core next to spinning magnets posses a huge drag, even having not the coil loaded.
On the contrary, if it is shorted, yet, the impedance - resistance- frequency, allows minimum energy dissipation to coil's windings (or the relation of current and resistance), that circulating current alleviates to a great part that initial drag and whole system seems accelerating.
I really must agree to this by watching the latest videos from Thane unfortunately....!
In his latest video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll-6MdYEkf0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll-6MdYEkf0)
it shows 1000 Volts x 0.2 amps = 200 Watts output at the coil, but around 345 Watts input into the motor... so only an efficiency of 58 % !
If Thane needed to draw that 345 Watts of electrical input power to spin the rotor versus the drag of the coil cores and coil´s lenz law drag
then he probably also needs around 80 to 90 % of this power to mechanically spin this wheel if he uses the shaft from the el. car motor,
he wants to put it on...
Okay, lets say Thans´s motor is 80 % efficient, then at 345 Watts of electrical input power, which you can see in his video at the LCD display at the upper right position, the mechanical power it deliver to the magnet wheel is about 276 Watts.
Now the output power is only around 200 Watts.
So he always has to supply more mechanical power to the magnet rotor than he gets out of it electrically.
So it seems, what he is doing is unfortunately only impedance matching, as when he shortens his coil the drag on the rotor will be reduced and thus less input power must be supplied, but it is still more than the output power....
I commented on some earlier videos of him, that he might only show impedance matching and asked some more polite questions,
but he just deleted the comments.
So in my view his device is just another load for the main elctric car battery...
and will not recharge on the longer run the battery... Maybe some small benefit from pulsing the spikes back to the battery,
but it draws then maybe this 276 Watts mechanical power from the car drive shaft and just delivers only 200 Watts of pulsed DC power back to the main battery...
so all in all it draws the 76 Watts from the main battery.
Quote
....
Lately for the needs of another experiment, i modified the Peripeteia rotor setup to spin past odd / even coils config, having minimum drag and coil's core to be made out of ferrite material. In other words, no losses.
I cannot achieve the Perepiteia effect there no matter what.
For me that thing, its explained and not ou.
That is interesting.
What output did you get then from your coil and did it drag down the motor when you drawed power from the output coil ?
So any chance that the Lenz law will be violated with this ?
Did you document this in a video ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
NEVER MIND I CHANGED MY MIND.
Hi all, I noticed I could get the acceleration under load with a new alternator/generator design
I'm working on, I was testing a coil when I noticed it happen and decided to try to increase the effect.
In my opinion it is a fair representation of the effect Thane see's, the input power is way more than the output.
If it is adjusted correctly to place the prime mover in a situation of being loaded up by drag
then when the drag is removed or lessened by a heavy low resistance load or a short the acceleration begins.
The short reduces drag because of the effects of harmonics/resonance in my opinion.
I did this with a very small 7 mH coil of 270 turns with 9 uF across it, 8 magnets at 2300 rpm and 2500 rpm, I can do it at higher speeds also,
all that is required is for the motor to be loaded up with the drag of the generator such that when the load is applied
the waveform almost flatlines, meaning little generated voltage, and therefore little generated Lenz. The capacitance of or with the coil
allows significant unloaded current oscillations and so lots of Lenz effect, right up until the load kills the oscillations, most the potential output
and the most of the Lenz effect, the generated power is relevent to the generated Lenz effect, the power generated in the LC oscillations is
significant enough to cause "internal" loading I think, which is relieved when the "external" loading flattens/reduces or even eliminates the oscillations.
These are some of my thoughts on the matter so far.
Any loaded motor will accelerate when the load is removed and the input power is maintained.
Fact remains while it is happening there is a pitiful output from the coil.
I have a longer video showing and explaining the arrangement and more tests, which i am trying to upload, I'll post it when it's up.
Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFWin-crxQY&list=UUBXqDE_ub_PAQRA9LfStmtA&index=1&feature=plcp
..
Hi all, Here is a drawing showing the setup I used.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi227.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd168%2FToey1%2FAccelerationarrangement001.jpg&hash=dc809748b448e427f997aa434802bce78a242eee)
And here is a couple of clips the first one explains the setup a bit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2NfmyyhbZs
The second one shows some of the effects I got.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV_dm8COKBY
Cheers
Thane's You Tube channel is GONE!
Quote from: Fred Flintstone on August 24, 2012, 11:46:27 PM
Thane's You Tube channel is GONE!
His Youtube account is still there but his videos are all gone... wonder why? :'(
- No great loss. Thane is the master of misinformation and obfuscation. He plagiarizes other people's work then tries to convince everyone that the ideas he presents are purely his own.
Robert Adams - the inventor of the adams motor generator showed the 'acceleration' effect of highly loaded coils in 1977. However, he never fully investigated the phenomenon and provided no explanation for it.
Regarding this so-called 'acceleration' effect of loaded coils, I have fully investigated it in the mid 1990's and I posted an explanation of the effect in 2007. You can find it on page 11 at this site.
http://www.totallyamped.net/adams
Cheers
Quote from: crazycut06 on August 25, 2012, 08:53:20 AM
His Youtube account is still there but his videos are all gone... wonder why? :'(
Because the company is protecting its Intellectual Property, I think.
How could printed polarity be applied to increase the efficiency of this rotor? Anyone?
Any thoughts on how these Printed Polarity Magnets could increase the efficiency of the ReGenX generator?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drD416THU7Y
these things can take a standard magnet and make one part of its surface more magnetic than the other part.
Could having one side of the magnets disc surface stronger make the the rotor more efficient?
http://news.d2p.com/2016/04/05/can-smart-magnets-improve-your-product-design/F
Can someone more adept in electromotive experiments than I comment on this?
Please?
What are the potential uses of this in things like generators or motors?
The printing process enables them to put both north and south magnet poles onto the same magnet surface.
Additionally, they are not expensive to make. They can be printed on top of any existing magnet with a flat surface, using
a printer similar to a 3d printer.
http://static.dudeiwantthat.com/img/gear/gadgets/polymagnets-programmable-21576.jpg
They have one shaped like this for $2.85 each:
http://overunity.com/7530/thane-heins-perepiteia-replications/dlattach/attach/163117/image// (http://overunity.com/7530/thane-heins-perepiteia-replications/dlattach/attach/163117/image//)
Polymagnet: Polymagnet Products
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcatalog.polymagnet.com%2Fmedia%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct%2Fcache%2F1%2Fsmall_image%2F210x%2F9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95%2F1%2F0%2F1001121_scale_shot_1.png&hash=0477318e84913802af38dd231ddc0f0865719357)
Quote from: supermuble on August 15, 2009, 02:24:50 PM
We live in an artificial paradigm where everything has limitations. The limitations are artificial. There are no laws that cannot be bent or broken. ;D