Overunity.com Archives

http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-2899586663939158659

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7218920724339766288&sourceid=top100newfeed

Wow, that is the best documentation I have ever seen about the 9/11 untruth...

This evidence is the best I have seen so far !
the Twin towers were destroyed probably by bomb explosions and
the Pentagon was probably hit by a cruise missile, not a plane !

I also always wondered back at this date myself, how the side
buildings of the Twin towers Center 7 or how it was called , did crash ?
When they showed this that day on TV it looked exactly
as if it was demolitioned with explosives and not from
the debris of the twin towers !

Watch this, it will open your eyes...
get as soon as you can before Google will take it off.
Download the GVI files, convert it to DVD and donate it to all your friends !

Guess that's why he postponed the 2008 Election.

Beginnings of a dictatorship after 9/11.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20060731/cm_thenation/20060814gillers

From:
http://0911.site.voila.fr/

Saturday, July 08, 2006
Pentagon eyewitness IDs Global Hawk

Audio report from Republic Broadcasting Network.
http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Piper/0607/20060707_Fri_Piper.mp3
Summaries via LibertyForum July 7, 2006


"Christopher Bollyn, American Free Press, reports:

Samuel Danner (electrical engineer for AmTrak),
was involved in the clean-up at the Pentagon crash site
and inspected the debris at the site.

He said, "It was not a Boeing 757 that hit the Pentagon.

The plane looked like a hump-back whale."
He thinks a Global Hawk hit the Pentagon.
(There were only seven made as of 9/11/01
and two were missing at the time.)

Danner is a former pilot.
He said the aircraft that hit the Pentagon was very quiet
with one engine near the back.
He also saw a second plane overhead
and wonders if it was controlling the plane that hit the Pentagon.

He walked the lawn and picked up small pieces of debris with others.
He did not see any bodies from the aircraft.

Danner is very ill now with lymphoma,
which may be the result of DU exposure at the Pentagon on 9/11.

He wants to talk now (after seeing "Loose Change")
because "it's been bugging me."

The Global Hawk fired a DU missile that penetrated the thick concrete
wall of the Pentagon.
DU was detected at the time and workers on the scene later in the day
wore protective equipment.


-----------------------

Yep, this 53-yr old Sam Danner, a pilot since the age of 16,
was a first-hand observer of the crash.
He pulled his car over to the south of the pentagon
on the right side of 395 when he saw the approach of the plane
that hit the pentagon.

He also observed a bunch of guys outside the pentagon
standing there looking through binoculars.

He got a good view of the plane's approach,
for a duration of at least three seconds.
He says that the plane was not a 757, no way.

"It was like a humpback whale" he says. . . .
one engine on the backside with a "V" tail and no windows
he could see. And it was very quiet.

Going about 400mph. Overhead, at an estimated 15,000 feet
he saw another plane.

As an EMT, he ran over to help at the pentagon,
but found no bodies,
no wreckage from a boeing aircraft on the scene.
He smelled cordite and he saw a 3-foot single engine
on the ground there.

He picked up graphite pieces similar to the composite wings
on a global hawk.

This engine matches the description of the single engine of a globalhawk.
The globalhawk is a UAV (unmanned aerial vehicle)
but could not have caused the damage if it wasn't containing
a bunker-busting missle deployed on impact.

The plane observed overhead might have been the plane controlling
the remotely-controlled mission.

If a 757 had crashed into the pentagon,
then there would have been aluminum all over the grass
and two 9-foot diameter engines.

http://www.total911.info/2006/07/pentagon-eyewitness-ids-global-hawk.html





Tuesday, September 11, 2001; 4:59 PM


Steve Patterson, 43, said he was watching television reports of the World Trade Center being hit
when he saw a silver commuter jet fly past the window of his 14th-floor apartment in Pentagon City.

The plane was about 150 yards away,
approaching from the west about 20 feet off the ground, Patterson said.
He said the plane, which sounded like the high-pitched squeal of a fighter jet,
flew over Arlington cemetary so low that he thought it was going to land on I-395.

It was flying so fast that he couldn't read any writing on the side.
The plane, which appeared to hold about eight to 12 people,
headed straight for the Pentagon but was flying
as if coming in for a landing on a nonexistent runway, Patterson said.

"At first I thought 'God, there's a plane truly misrouted from National,'"
"Then this thing just became part of the Pentagon ...
I was watching the World Trade Center go and then this. What's next?"

He said the plane, which approached the Pentagon below treetop level,
seemed to be flying normally for a plane coming in for a landing
other than going very fast for being so low.

Then, he said, he saw the Pentagon "envelope" the plane
and bright orange flames shoot out the back of the building.

By Barbara Vobejda
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, September 11, 2001; 4:59 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/metro/daily/sep01/attack.html



Don Perkal   
Even before stepping outside I could smell the cordite.
Then I knew explosives had been set off somewhere.
http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2001/09/19perkal.html



Gilah Goldsmith 
We saw a huge black cloud of smoke, she said,
saying it smelled like cordite, or gun smoke.
www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,550486,00.html



Asked if there were unreleased photographs of the attack that would convince the doubters,
Zelikow, of the 9/11 commission, said, "No."
(of course, because they can't...)

"The question of whether American 77 hit the Pentagon is indisputable," Zelikow said.
(really? lol...)
"One reason you tend to doubt conspiracy theories when you've worked in government
is because you know government is not nearly competent enough to carry off elaborate theories.
It's a banal explanation, but imagine how efficient it would need to be."
(conspiracy theories, moronic automatic phrase association, blabla virtualising facts with words...
nuts equation: conspiracy + theories -> conspiracies are theories

sliding about possibility & fact that when it's not a theory... it's indeed a conspiracy. )
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A13059-2004Oct6?language=printer



at least... the "independant" "commission" didn't see any of the other pentagon videos & documents,
showing the 757 in question...
this kind of "commission" can't be serious...

check the "vigilant guardian" (the worse named) operation...
a part of the whole thing.

This is really the biggest scam and cover up I have seen during the last years.
Go to:
http://question911.com/linksall.htm

and download all the videos and get the word out to all your friends !

Here is a free tool to convert the Google GVI format directly to AVI:

http://www.naevius.com/gvi_converter.htm

Get it and copy it to DVDs and spread it to your friends !

Wow, this is really getting a SUPER FRAUD !

The evidence is overwhelming, that the 3 WTC buildings were brought down
by controlled demolition !

Especially the fine dust would only occur from controlled demolition explosions !

Also you can see the single explosions, one after the other,
floor after the next floor,
clearly on a few wittness tapes and the
steel is flying horizontally away as only controlled demolition explosions can have caused it !

If the pancake theory would have taken place it would have taken at least
45 seconds or more to come down and concrete steel frames would have still stood
inside the center of WTC 1 and 2 !

Also WTC 7 was admitted by Larry Silverstein to have been "brought down",
so have been "pulled down" which in other words is a controlled demolition !

So, who planted all the explosives in the 3 WTC buildings ?

It must have been tons of explosives hidden there and it was
proved that days before there were drillings inside the buildings and
explosive sniffer dogs were removed !

Why were the wrackage removed from the scene so fast and shipped to Asia and remelted,
before anyone could have a look at it ???

This whole case stinks enormously !

There MUST BE  A NEW INVESTIGATION  and all the political consequences
are still to be coming up....!

also http://youtube.com/watch?v=kcrF346sS_I

EDIT - the above link has been updated

Now i really wish I could listen to these here at work :P Guess I'll have to watch it all at home if i ever get the time :P

My biggest question is why? Why would the US gov. want to do something like this? The only thing that I can come up with is a way to justify the wars overseas to the american public. It's a dirty blow, but it's the only thing that makes any sense. Anyone else have any theories?

Motive?

Read the "Project for a new American Century."  (Google PNAC)
This was written by Cheney, Rumsfield, Pearl, and the rest of the nazi mafia in 2000.  It outlines plans for a global empire and mentions the need for a new pearl harbor.

Plans for the war in afghanistan were already underway before 9/11.  The reason is that the taliban refused a deal to let Unical build a pipeline across afghanistan... AND, they burned the poppy fields.
Since the US invasion... they have installed a unical executive as the puppet president... and the poppy fields are  back in operation (with the DIA and CIA transporting drugs out of the country).

Add to that... the insurance money silverstein got.  Just on WTC 7 he got $500 million over his investment.
Of course, this was his payment for his involvment... he had to be told.

WTC 7 also housed records on SEC investigations... one of those was Bush's insider trading at Harkin energy.

But the ultimate prize was the overthrow of the constitutional republic in America.  The USA Patriot Act... written in advance... effectively gives dictorial powers to the president.  This was passed overwhelmingly in the wake of 9/11.
Resistance to this legislation was defeated with the anthrax attacks (remember those?) on Democratic congressional leaders and journalists.  The anthrax was traced to a US military stockpile in Maryland.  The investigation went nowhere... probably supressed from the top.

Another piece of information that is not in these films is the recent discovery of traces of explosives found at the WTC site.

To the international members of this community - it is imperative that you spread the word in your countries, and that you demand the world do something about this.

America is now 1930's Germany.  Remember, Hitler was elected and made himself dictator.  9/11 was Bush's Reichstag.  Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Elvis,

In my opinion, that is the reaction that the world controllers want you to have.
The real goal of making the US to look like the out of control nation (similar to 1938 Germany) that needs to be taken down, is to ultimately disarm the American public.  (Since the US government has not been successful in doing this through unlawful legislation coming from the United Nations, not that they haven't tried to do their best to make 'laws' to disarm the American public to be in line with UN policy). 

Knowing that the US public wouldn't allow a disarming, wouldn't it make sense that they would purposely then make the US to look like an enemy of the world, an out of control nation, so they could stir up and justify the disarming of the US public with a world wide attack on the US through choking the economy of the US with sanctions?  Why else would so many companies in the US outsource, but to help this process along, and to escape the financial downfall?  This would be a big mistake to think that nations turning against the US with sanctions or an attack would be beneficial for the people of the US and for freedom world wide.  It would only play into world government plans for complete world control by trying to take out the only real resistance left to total world wide control through the attempted disarming of the US public (the only real opposition left in their way). 

We must look beyond, and see why they are doing the things that they are doing, not just be reactionary and fall into their well thought out plan to try to make the US look like the enemy of the world, for the purpose of disarming the US public. 

It is important to think smartly from a world controllers perspective on what they need to accomplish in the US to obtain unhindered world control.  Without opposition of an armed public in the US, that could stand against world control, it will be much easier for the small global elite to maintain a strong hold on world control without any possible opposition with the disarming of the US public.  That, I believe is their real goal and one that should be resisted for freedom's sake, and for the sake of the freedom of the world.

Quote from: FreeEnergy on August 02, 2006, 08:02:56 AM
also http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3143048862360929736

When you listen to this video it is disgusting,
how Penn and Teller behave and use the words "fuck" ,"asshole", "stupid" "jerk", etc...

This is total disinformation and all arguments about 9/11 are easily refutable
with the Loose Change video.
Especially the fine dust and all the explosions that have been
there , that will only come from controlled demolition
and the complete crash of WTC 7 without a plane crash is the evidence,
that Penn and Teller are probably paid by L. Silverstein.

Also already by looking at Penn and Teller, would you give them or loan them your money,
if they would tell you they have a good opportunity to make money ??
You could also do it down the drain, if you would do....

If you looking for documented video about 9/11, and other false flag operations as they are called.

Look at Terrorstorm. A new Alex Jones film which shows the news article or documentation before displaying the
evidence. Goes through 7-7, 911...
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4757274759497686216&q=terrorstorm

Alex Jones and the 911 conference was just on CSPAN http://www.c-span.org/
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5004704309041471296&q=alex+jones+cspan

yes George Bush is a satanist. http://www.infowars.com/bg1.html
also http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-82095917705734983&q=bohemian+grove
This video shook me a lot.
He actually snuck in to the grove and saw all the satanic symbols,mock child sacrifice and Owl worshipping.
The most powerful people attend there in California every year. Sitting presidents don't usually go.

Another great video is to watch the cia attempted coup of Hugo Chavez.
Very interesting to see the media in the US support a coup of a democratically elected leader.
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5793200611323299754&q=hugo+chavez

Here it is:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Search for
Pearl Harbour

and then go to page 58,
you see the unmanned radio controlled Black Hawk plane !
Is this just a coincident ?

I am so repulsed by this whole thread I am deleting myself as a member of this site.  It has nothing to do with the purpose of this site and is all complete drivel.  Ask the relatives of the people who died in those planes whether or not they hit those towers.

I don't know if my posts will remain, but if not, oh well.

Hi Jake,
don?t get fooled by the governmental version.

The questions is right, where have all the passengers gone
from these planes ?

If you have seen the Loose Change2nd edition video,
go directly to 1 hour in the video,  it was said, that the plane who
has supposedly crashed in the fields out there at Shanksville,  was indeed landed at Cleveland airport
at around 10:45 am
and all the about 200 passengers were escorted away into an empty  NASA hangar or location ?
Well, what did happen then to them?
This is still the biggest question, but if they killed all the people
in the WTC buildings, why not a few more from the planes ?

Also it was proven, that cell phones don?t work inside planes at this travelling height and
that the voices from calling passengers were faked with a new voice snthesizer
method, which allowed faked calls to relatives from the fakers.

Why are they installing special cell phone relay stations  otherwise onboard planes now,
so one is able to use the cell phone to make a connection to ground ?
normally in 30.000 feet height you don?t get any cell phone connection !

Have a look at this video:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4837634583766795751

The fires were almost off in the WTC towers and Edna waived to the helicopters
to come to rescure them.

Also the black smoke is a reason that the fires are almost out and just smoke
a bit. High temperatures would only occur if a bright fire would have been burning..
It is so obvious if you begin to think !

Jeff King , MIT engineer supports controlled demolition:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=1822764959599063248

Quote from: jake on August 02, 2006, 06:04:41 PM
I am so repulsed by this whole thread I am deleting myself as a member of this site.  It has nothing to do with the purpose of this site and is all complete drivel.  Ask the relatives of the people who died in those planes whether or not they hit those towers.

I don't know if my posts will remain, but if not, oh well.

Many people are in denial after they first hear the evidence.  But it will give them something to think about as over time they reconsider and seek the truth, not just the official story line.

Pyroclastic explosion clouds from controlled demolition:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=1381525012075538113

Liberty,

They'll take my gun when they pry it from my cold dead fingers. :)

Sorry if it sounded like I was calling for a UN invasion of the US. haha

What needs to happen is for other countries to Force us out of IRAQ, and to threaten Bush into cancelling plans for the attack on Iran.  It would also help if some other country - Germany most likely - would offer refuge to SERIOUS whistle-blowers... and maybe even coordinate a multinational investigation... Chavez has offered to do this and I like the idea.

Of course there are plans to disarm us.  Bush could do it tomorrow.... half the idiots here wouldn't mind it - and about half of the republicans would be ok with it if Bush did it.  As evidence, consider what the conservatives would have done if Clinton had signed the patriot act...
Besides all that - It's a proven fact that Bush can and will do anything he wants and even though some may cry foul... noone does a damn thing about it. 

But regardless, we are out of control.  We better get control of it, or we will be in a world of pain.  Even if Russia doesn't attack us over Iran... with all our military in theater, we are sitting ducks for Russia or China.
Not that I have hard feelings for either of those countries... but shit happens.

Jake,

You sound like Bill O'Reilly.  When a 9/11 victim's son was on - and talking about these very questions - Bill yelled at him and cut his mic... "out of respect for the victims."

Examining the evidence and presenting your analysis to refute someone else's theory is one thing... and seeing the thread and, being ignorant, clicking away and laughing is another... but posting what you posted is an obvious attempt to discourage others from looking into the evidence.  And perhaps you even thought you would have the moderator remove the thread.  You probably even called the TIPS hotline to report this "unauthorized" discussion.
So it's obvious that your allegiance is to George Bush... and George Bush is a traitor to America... and that makes you a traitor.  Please note that your IP hhas been logged and you will be tried and punished for your crimes against the people of America.

Have a good day.

Bush is an idiot, its funny that most poeple outside the US know that!

GOV hide all secrets about freeenergy, antigravity, they want make money
with petrol, make war to increase the oil prize.

Destroy our only planet just to make them rich and live longuer!

Hi TheOne,
I can understand that we all are angry now , but please
don?t post any death threads over here.

You might have a look at this instead:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=3401925678922201999

There must be a public investigation coming from the people with
no controlment or censorship of the mediapossible, how it is done nowadays.

This can only come from the grasroots. So it is best to get
out these videos, copy them to DVD-R/+R and donate them to all
your friends, so they know, what is going on and don?t trust the
normal media anymore, which allover the USA and also Germany
is controlled and censored.

sorry i overreacted :)

If it wouldn?t be such a tragic scam event one could laugh at this:

http://www.geocities.com/pentalawn2000/

Deceide yourself if this could be true or not:


From:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~holmgren/manufactured.html


MANUFACTURED TERRORISM - THE TRUTH ABOUT SEPT 11 



By Gerard Holmgren 



First published April 18 2004.  Last Revised Jan 1 2005



Copyright. This article may be freely distributed as long as it is not for commercial purposes.

Please include the authors name and the web address where you found it.





There's just one problem with the official story of Sept 11 - it isn't true.



This article presents a summary of the evidence that entire event was planned and carried out by the US govt and its agencies.



The research and documentation to support the charges made in this article can be found here



To start with, lets assume that the official story is basically true -  that 19 Arabs hijacked four planes and crashed three of them into buildings and one into a field. As I'll demonstrate later, this is not what happened ,but even if it were true, there is solid proof that the govt must have had prior knowledge and deliberately allowed it to happen. In order to understand this proof, one must first know the basics of  the official story.



American Airlines flight 11, a Boeing 767, tail number N334AA, with 92 people aboard, including the hijackers, was hijacked by 5 Arabs, while on route from Boston to LA. It was known to be hijacked by 8.25 AM or earlier, and hit the Nth tower of the WTC at 8.46.



United Airlines flight 175, a Boeing 767, tail number N612UA, with 65 aboard , including the hijackers , was hijacked by 5 Arabs, while flying the same route as AA 11. It was known to be hijacked at about 8.55 AM and hit the Sth Tower of the WTC at 9.03.



The towers later collapsed due to fire and /or impact damage.

American Airlines flight 77, a Boeing 757, tail number N644AA, with 64  aboard, including the hijackers, was hijacked by 5 Arabs while on route from Dulles airport (DC) to LA. It was known to be hijacked at about 8.55 and hit the Pentagon at 9.45.



United Airlines flight 93, a Boeing 757, tail number N591UA, with  45 aboard, including the hijackers, on route from Newark (New Jersey) to SF , was hijacked by 4 Arabs. It was known to be hijacked about 9.45, and crashed in PA at 10.10.



The incriminating anomaly in this timeline is that the US air force did not scramble a single fighter jet to intercept any of the hijacked planes.



A little research into aviation regulations and historical precedent demonstrates that every one of those planes should have been intercepted by jet fighters before it got anywhere near its crash destination. The failure to launch any intercepts is only explainable by a systematic nation-wide stand down of routine air defence procedures. FAA regulations state  that if any plane deviates from its flight path, and fails to respond to ATC commands or communications, it is automatically declared an emergency. This is because is it has become a hazard to other planes - even if no malicious intent is suspected. If ATC is any doubt as to whether an emergency exists, it is to be considered as one.



Once ATC has detected an emergency, a request is put through to NORAD for an escort of fighter jets to intercept the plane, investigate the problem, and guide it back to its correct course, via a set of clearly stated procedures. Should the pilot prove unco-operative, the regulations provide the fighter pilots with a graduated range of more aggressive responses, such as firing warning tracers, flying one each side, to force it into the desired flight path - or even shooting down in extreme circumstances.  The fighter jets are either scrambled from nearby air bases or else by diverting pilots on training flights to the intercept. It takes only a few minutes to scramble fighter jets, and the process is so routine that in the year leading up to Sept 11, there was an average of 1.6 such incidents weekly across the US. A study of the location of air bases in relation to the flight paths of the hijacked planes, indicates that every plane should have been intercepted before impact. And yet nothing was even scrambled until after the Pentagon was hit.



The most spectacular example is that of the Pentagon strike. Two planes had already hit the WTC by 9.03 and yet this plane was allowed to fly for another 42 minutes, off course towards Washington, untroubled by the world's most powerful air force. Only 10 miles from the Pentagon is Andrews Airbase, a huge installation which is responsible for air defence around the DC area, and maintains two squadrons of fighter jets on permanent standby for this very purpose, since the security of the White House, State dept, Capitol and the City of DC are also at stake. This was not an unforseen contingency. The Pentagon had twice in the last two years conducted drills specifically simulating  a plane strike, and for decades, US security services had been  wrestling with the potential problem of a hijacked airliner taking a suicide plunge into the Whitehouse.



On Sept 11, they had nearly an hours warning of the Pentagon attack - and grounded the entire air force - in violation of standard operating procedures that are automatically implemented even in the case of a single plane accidentally deviating from its course with no obviously hostile intent.



NORAD, after initially admitting that it failed to scramble anything - supposedly because it simply hadn't imagined such a situation -  suddenly changed the story a week later, claiming that it had scrambled fighters from Langley air-base - 130 miles away - but they didn't get there in time. If fighters were really scrambled from Langley, then how could NORAD - which issues the scramble order - have been unaware of it until a week later? And according to the times given by NORAD , the Langley fighters would have had to flown at less than 260 mph to have not got there in time - when the top speed of the fighters is about 1200mph. And why scramble from Langley, when Andrews had two squadrons just 10 miles away - specifically dedicated to the DC area?



Even more curious is that CBS news was the first to publish the claim about  Langley, producing it without any source at all on Sept 14. On Sept 16,Vice President, Dick Cheney was still defending the lack on any scramble prior to the pentagon strike, and NORAD didn?t pick up the CBS spin and incorporate it until Sept 18.



Then they tried to say that no fighters were available at Andrews that day, but failed to explain how the non existent fighters then somehow appeared at Andrews to scramble a few minutes after the Pentagon was hit, but still didn?t bother to chase UA 93, which was supposedly still at large and heading towards DC.



While the air force was doing nothing, the two officials most directly responsible for defence of the nation - Acting Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff , General Richard Myers and President/Commander in Chief, George W. Bush were displaying what can only be described as cavalier indifference to the horror that was unfolding. Myers was about to start a routine meeting with Senator Max Cleland when he heard that a plane had hit the WTC. He went ahead with the meeting as if nothing had happened. 18 minutes later, when the second plane hit, and NORAD knew that at least one more plane was hijacked, Myers and Cleland continued with the meeting. Then a plane hit the Pentagon. And still they continued with the meeting.



Meanwhile, Bush was in Florida, about to make a televised photo opportunity trip to an elementary school, to listen to second graders read, after which he was to give a speech about the reading program. Before he even got to the school, he knew about the first WTC strike, but continued with his arrangement. And then, still, before he arrived at the school, NORAD?according to its own timeline, knew about two more hijackings, which means that Bush knew, but he continued to the school anyway - in spite of that fact that the school was only 5 miles from an international airport , and his movements were public knowledge in advance, which means that the school might have been a target - and then he pretended to know nothing about the attacks when he got there. Before he went into the classroom, it would have been clear to NORAD that a major terrorist attack was underway.



By 9.05 Bush was listening to a little girl read a story about her pet goat, and his Chief of staff, Andrew card came into the classroom and whispered in his ear that a second plane had hit the WTC and that "America was under attack." Bush nodded casually and continued with the reading class - for about another 25 minutes, smiling ,joking and cheering about the reading skills of the children. A reporter who suggested that he should be addressing himself to the situation in NY was sternly rebuked by Bush, who said that now was not the time to be talking about it. And  at this time, Bush knew that there was at least one more plane at large - something which no-one else in the class knew.



At 9.30, with AA 77 still flying unescorted towards DC, Bush finished the reading class (on schedule) and then wasted more time with a pointless speech to the nation, already promising to "hunt down and punish those responsible", while showing no interest in doing anything about the plane which was still at large, a danger of which his audience was unaware. He left the school about the same time that the Pentagon was hit.



Later, in an attempt to cover up the fact that he'd still gone to the school in spite of being aware of the crisis, Bush lied about his movements on the morning, inventing a story that he was already at the school when the first WTC strike happened. This lie has worked its way into the popular mythology in the mainstream media. In the scramble to find a cover story for his movements that morning, Bush also carelessly claimed that he'd seen the first crash live on TV at the school and had thought it was an accident. This is also a lie because the first strike was never broadcast live.



Immediately after the attacks, US TV networks reported that investigators were looking into massive insider trading on airline stocks in the last few days before the attacks - indicating that the terrorists profited from foreknowledge of their actions. Then the story simply vanished from the mainstream media. Investigative and regulatory authorities  could easily find out who placed those trades, but more than three years later, there has been no investigation, no charges laid and deafening silence about the trades from both govt and media.



Although the govt claimed to be completely taken by surprise, it somehow had no trouble in naming the alleged perpetrator  - Osama Bin Laden - within hours, and immediately threatened to invade Afghanistan. What they neglected to mention was that the decision to invade Afghanistan had already been made by July 2001, and the specific war plans arrived on Bush's desk on sept 9.



It a common myth that Bin Laden has claimed responsibility for the attacks but this simply isn't true. He's vigorously denied any involvement ,and according to some reports has condemned the attacks as un-Islamic. The myth of his confession is based entirely upon a video tape produced by the Pentagon which claims to show him laughing about how many innocent people he's killed. This tape is a fake. In at least some of the clips, the person is not Bin Laden.

The US military conveniently ?found ? the tape in Afghanistan.



The Pentagon's translation was immediately attacked by independent translators as misleading and incomplete. In response, the Pentagon effectively admitted as much, saying "it is not a verbatim translation of every word spoken at the meeting, but it does convey the messages and the information flow." The Dept of defense defended the translation thus . " The translation is what it is .We never said it was a literal translation."



Incriminating as all of this is, it only scratches the surface.  The FBI managed to name the 19 Arabs involved within a few days, and their names, faces and biographies were promptly splashed across the mainstream media. Supposedly, their passports and suicide notes  were found at the crash scenes in spite of fiery crashes which completely incinerated the planes - including the normally indestructible flight recorder boxes - and all the occupants. In another miraculous stroke of good luck for the evidence hunters, the luggage of alleged ringleader, Mahommed Atta, was somehow left behind at Logan airport and just happened to contain instructions to his fellow conspirators. And it seems that they learned how to fly the giant Boeings at the last minute by reading flight manuals on the way to the airport - because they conveniently left the manuals - in Arabic of course - in the cars they had rented. 



How embarrassing for the FBI when some of the alleged hijackers started turning up alive, protesting their innocence! And even more embarrassing when the passenger lists provided by the airlines to CNN did not contain a single Arabic name. And none of the names on the passenger lists are alleged to be aliases for any of the Arabs. How did they get on the flights without being on the passenger lists, and if they were using false names, how were these traced to their real ID's and  why have none of the other names on the lists ever been identified as  hijackers aliases ? 19 obviously Arabic men got on to planes with non Arabic false ID, with a 100%  success rate? And why is there no airport security footage of them?



As the cover story  quickly unravelled within a few weeks of "identifying" the hijackers, the FBI was then forced to admit that they actually had no idea who the hijackers were. In spite of this, the same 19 names and faces have been splashed across the mainstream media unchanged, as if this admission had never been made. The farcical ?911 commission ? treated the 19 Arabs as a fact, waffling about ?missed intelligence warnings? in relation to their pre ?Sept 11 activities.





And in subsequent statements, the FBI buried the admission of doubt about the hijackers identities with an avalanche of  increasingly ridiculous spin about the sinister pre- Sept11 activities of the 19 Arabs, seemingly forgetting that they admitted these IDs to be fictitious. For example, the FBI  rather stupidly claimed that 9 of the fictitious Arabs had actually been searched before boarding because they looked suspicious. If they were using false names when they were searched, then surely the FBI must know which of those 9 people on the passenger lists were actually the hijackers incognito?  And if they were not using false IDs, can we know why they're not on the passenger lists?  Clearly, the 19 Arabs are complete fiction.



Some critical thinking about how the hijacking is supposed to have taken place also reveals the story as a bad cartoon script. In the event of a hijacking, the crew has only to punch in a four digit hijacking code - accessible from several different places - to alert ATC to a hijacking. So if  5 men were to try to take over a plane by the crude method of threatening people with box cutters, while it might be possible for them to be able to gain control of the plane, to do so without ATC first receiving a distress code is almost impossible. We are supposed to believe that they achieved the impossible 4 times out of 4.



In one of the phone calls allegedly made from AA 11, it was said that the crew locked themselves in the cockpit, and the hijackers attempted to lure them out by shooting and stabbing passengers. This is said to have gone on for 25 minutes. Why then no distress code from AA 11 ? Furthermore, the timeline of the alleged phone call indicates that the plane had already turned off course before the hijackers got into the cockpit!



But it wasn't only the hijackers which were fiction. So were the hijackings. We all think that we saw a big plane hit the WTC  live on TV, so there must have been hijacked planes, right ? A closer look reveals it as an elaborate illusion.



First , lets take AA77, the plane which is supposed to have hit the Pentagon. This is one of the most heavily monitored and defended buildings in the world, and yet somehow they can't come up with any footage of the crash. Because it never happened. Something hit the pentagon but it wasn't a Boeing 757 or anything anywhere near that size. There are numerous photos of the aftermath and nowhere is to be seen any evidence of wreckage of such a plane. A 757 has a wingspan of 125 ft, a tail height of 40 ft and a length of 155 ft. The hole in the Pentagon wall was about 16 ft wide, 12 ft high and collapsed only the first ring of the building - about 40 ft deep. There is no sign of any Boeing debris anywhere. No wings, no tail, no protruding fuselage. The tail couldn't fit through the hole even if the plane was sliding along the ground. And because the grass outside is smooth, green and undamaged, even that is impossible. And because the angle of entry of  the mystery object was about 45 degrees , 125 ft wingspan would cause an impact about 180 ft wide. A giant aircraft has supposedly passed through a hole many times smaller than itself, without breaking off any parts, and then totally vanished.



Furthermore, official aviation records from the US bureau of transportation say that the alleged AA 77 flight did not exist. The BT keeps a record of details about every flight ever scheduled from a US airport - even cancelled flights. No such record exists of AA 77 on Sept 11. Early reports said that the incident at the pentagon was caused by a truck bomb. Witness reports are confused and contradictory, but some mention a missile or small fighter jet.



Now consider AA 11, the plane alleged to have hit the Nth tower at 8.46. This is not the plane shown in the dramatic, often replayed crash video, but the less frequently shown first crash - not broadcast until later, when the official story of four large planes had already been put into the public's mind. Whatever the object is, it is certainly not a Boeing 767 or any kind of large passenger jet. When one views the video at full speed, one can only see a brief flash and then the explosion. Since we are always being told that its AA 11, the natural tendency is to think that its just too fast to see on the video. However a frame by frame analysis shows a very strange looking object, more like a flying pig than a plane. Certainly nothing like a Boeing 767 and way too small. It dive-bombs into the tower in a manner which would appear to impossible for a large airliner. 



Neither is there any witness evidence to support a large jet. All early reports say that it was a small plane or missile, or people who were looking right at the explosion and simply didn't see any plane, and it only became a large plane after American Airlines issued a statement saying that it had lost AA11 in the crash.



The BT database also says that there was no such flight as AA 11 on Sept 11. A close examination of the passenger lists published by the media for the alleged AA11 proves them to be fabricated, because there are impossible contradictions between the lists published by different media outlets.



Now the Sth tower crash, the one shown live on TV. Surely this was a real Boeing 767 because we saw it live, and at superficial viewing it certainly appears to be a large jet. However, a frame by frame examination of the video reveals that it is not a real plane. It shows impossible physical characteristics and behaviour. It passes through the wall like a ghost without making a hole and without breaking off any parts. The hole only appears well after the plane has entirely disappeared without disturbing the building. It exceeds the maximum speed of a Boeing 767 at low altitude while banked sharply and flying in the opposite direction to that in which its banking. It hip hops across the screen regularly alternating ,frame by frame, between supersonic speed and hovering motionless. It has a strange anomaly in the shape of the belly.



It is a fake. The plane is simply a movie.

Witness evidence for a large plane hitting the Sth tower is as elusive as for the Nth Tower and the Pentagon. There is a police transcript of a report of someone firing missiles.

Aviation records from the FAA show that although UA 175 existed as a flight, unlike AA 77 or AA 11, the plane to which this flight was assigned  - N612UA - is still registered and valid. In other words, it never crashed. So we don't know where it went, but we do know that it didn't hit the WTC.



And finally UA 93 - alleged to have crashed in PA. Like UA 175, this was a bona fide flight, but the plane - N591UA - is also still registered as valid.



FAA records do show  the planes to which  AA11 and 77 were allegedly assigned  - N334AA and N644AA as destroyed - but not until Jan 14 2002, when the FAA regulations state that the deregistration must be reported on the day that a plane is totally destroyed. So most likely these planes were ready for retirement and were taken away somewhere to be scrapped.



Now to the question of the collapse of the WTC towers. The official story that they collapsed from fire and/or impact damage is a physical impossibility. Video of the event shows that the towers did not collapse - they exploded in mid air, and one can see clear evidence of explosive charges running down the buildings, and neatly chopped storey length pieces of steel girder being ejected as far as 70 metres from the building. There are numerous scientific studies which demonstrate that its impossible for them to have collapsed in the pancaking manner cited in the official story.



Firstly, all of the concrete in the towers was totally pulverized into fine dust. The amount of energy needed to achieve this task is quantifiable, and so is the amount of potential energy available in a gravitational collapse. Its insufficient to achieve this pulverization, which means that only an added input of energy (such as explosives) can balance the energy equation.



Secondly, a simple application of the laws of gravity demonstrate that the towers collapsed in a time which was impossible had the top floors been smashing through the lower floors. Excluding air resistance, any object free falls at 9.81m/s sq, regardless of weight. An object dropped from the top of the WTC would have hit the ground in 9.2 secs ( a little longer for air resistance). The towers supposedly collapsed by the method of the top floors smashing through the lower floors, meaning that at each stage of the 110 storey collapse, the falling rubble would have its acceleration significantly slowed by this resistance. But the towers collapsed in 11 secs, virtually a free fall. Although there are too many variables to calculate the  exact minimum time possible for a pancake collapse, it would have to be more than 20 seconds. A pancake collapse in 11 seconds is impossible under the law of gravity.



This proves that the entire structure was suddenly and simultaneously converted into a free falling collection of disconnected rubble, something only achievable through the co-ordinated use of demolition explosives. There are also witness reports from fire-fighters who say that they heard bombs going off in the buildings.



The media likes to gloss over the similarly neat, vertical, and lightening quick collapse of WTC building 7, a 47 storey building which was not hit by anything but also disappeared in a manner identical to that of a classic controlled demolition. Apart from Sept 11, no steel framed skyscraper has ever totally collapsed from fire - and there were allegedly 3 in one day. The steel debris from the towers was rushed away for recycling with indecent haste, before any investigation could be conducted into the remains.



On Sept 14, a demolition expert who works for the Pentagon, professor Van Romero,  said that upon his viewing of the collapse videos, he believed that it was a controlled demolition. Prof Romero later retracted his statement in mysterious circumstances, refusing to say why and refusing to offer any alternative scenario, simply saying that he wasn't prepared to say what did or didn't happen, and didn't want to talk about it anymore.



The early spin from the media was that the ferocious heat of the burning jet fuel melted the structural steel of the skyscraper. Unfortunately, jet fuel, which is basically kerosene, typically burns at about 450 degrees C, and steel melts at about 1550C.



Calculations of the maximum amount of heat which could have been even theoretically generated by the maximum amount of fuel that the mythical planes could have carrying show that it could not have contributed more than 280C to the temperature - even if all the fuel was confined to one floor. Each floor of the WTC was about 4,000 sq metres. The maximum amount of fuel which the plane could have carried was about 8000 gallons. So even claiming that all of this fuel burnt within one floor, that's about 2 gallons per sq metre - supposedly melting steel construction beams.



Neither does the myth of a ferocious fire in the WTC stand up to the scrutiny of witness or video evidence. Fire-fighter tapes describe some "isolated pockets of fire" which they could "knock out" with two hoses. And the black smoke drifting from the building indicates an oxygen starved fire.



Even if the mythical inferno were true, far more ferocious fires have been experienced in other skyscrapers - sometimes burning out of control for as long as 20 hours, and never has one of these buildings collapsed.



Why would they want to demolish the WTC? It had been losing money for years. Its the most valuable piece of real estate in the world, but the buildings themselves were a disaster. Under tenanted and beset by asbestos problems, the owner, the NY Port Authority had received warnings that it was sitting on a legal and financial time bomb. And of course, they couldn't be demolished because of all the asbestos dust that would go into the air of NY. The NYPA had been trying to sell the buildings for years, and understandably, nobody was interested. In early 2001, the NYPA went to court in a test case, and tried to get its insurance company to pay for asbestos renovations. The case was thrown out. This should have made the buildings even more unsaleable. However, immediately after this, Manhattan property developer Larry Silverstein, who sits on the board of Westfield America, stepped in with a consortium worth $US3.2 billion for a 99 year lease on the site. Westfield Australia directly contributed $A840 million for control of the shopping plaza. Silverstein insured himself for $US3.5 billion per terrorist attack, and Westfield insured itself against terrorism and loss of rental income.



Not long after, when the WTC conveniently disappeared in a terrorist attack - along with building 7 of the complex - it solved the asbestos problem, leaving Silverstein with a clean building site on the best real estate in the world, and Westfield with a rental income which probably would have been unsustainable in a real trading environment, and no law suits over all the asbestos dust released into the air of  Manhattan. Silverstein's insurer has agreed to the $3.5 billion pay out, but Silverstein is claiming that it was two terrorist attacks and wants $ 7 billion, which is currently the subject of a court case.



Very early media reports had the two fictitious AA flights as the planes to hit the WTC. AA 77 was only switched to being the Pentagon plane hours later. UA 175 was the last plane to be "confirmed" as involved. At 9.17, the FAA started diverting all flights. Early reports show wild discrepancies in terms of which allegedly hijacked plane went where. The fictitious AA77 is particularly volatile from one report to another, at one stage saying that it hit the WTC, then that it didn't even take off for a half hour after the Sth Tower strike ,then that after taking off at 9.33, it somehow flew 700  miles out to Ohio and back, in just 5 minutes, to hit the Pentagon. One report had UA 93 landing at Cleveland due to a bomb scare.



What is clear is that they were making it up as they went along, and the final cover story about which planes crashed where didn't settle down for hours.



In summary, this is most likely how the morning of Sept 11 really played out. There was no need to issue an order for the air force to stand down routine intercept procedures, because it appears that there actually weren't any hijackings.



Two unconventional objects were fired into the WTC. The impacts were blamed on the two fictitious AA flights. At this time UA 93 and 175 were flying normally. Then the FAA begins diverting flights - including the two UA flights. The BT database tells us of any flights which are diverted, but doesn't tell us where they are diverted to. So we don't have an official record of where the two UA flights landed , although there is some evidence that UA 93 actually landed at Cleveland.  Later, AA 77 became the pentagon plane, and UA 175 became the Sth tower plane as the official cover story started to settle down.



Thus of the four allegedly hijacked planes , two didn't exist, and the other two were diverted to safe landings.



Most likely the PA crash was a drone craft of some kind, and there is evidence that the substitute craft was shot down.



This is only a brief summary of the evidence. Much material had to be left out due to space constraints. I encourage all readers not to uncritically accept this at face value , but to avail themselves of the full documentation  for this summary.

Here you can easily see the controlled demolition squibs
coming upwards at WTC 7 and the collapsing.

http://www.911hoax.com/gWTC7_1.asp?intPage=34&PageNum=34

If you still belive that 9/11 was not staged.... what else proof do you need ?

Here is a very good an informative Video from
Eric Huffschmid:

http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=2540214216206124825

What absolute dross this whole discussion is. Falls down the same drain as the moon landing conspiracy theorists. If the claimed conspiracy had actually happened it would have need the involvement of thousands of co-conspirators - who have all kept their lips tightly buttoned till now.
Get real folks

Well, yes, there were probably some well organized stuff to implement
all the explosives in the WTC 1, 2 and 7 centers.
It is now obvious, that only controlled demolition can have caused
the "pulling", as Larry A. Silverstein calls it , have brought them down.

Have another look at this video, which shows it all:
http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-4420343748929905289&q=eric+hufschmid

I wonder, why nobody has the balls to prosecute Silverstein for insurance fraud at least...
if he admits it already in public, that his coworkers "PULLED" ( that means: DETONATED)  WTC 7 !

Here are the right questions answered:

http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=9114190988980929653

That's it...i'm going into politics...then I can make Canada a safe haven for whistle-blowers... people that refuse to belive that this is a giant cover-up are just blinding themselves of the facts in front of their faces. People that were there and survived are obviously scared to talk...let's give them a safe place to go so they can speek freely - it is quite obvious that freedom of speech is dead in the USA.

smarthousesys - The "conspiracy' would not need to include "thousands".

The fact is that 9 of the 19 alleged hijackers are still alive.  So the official story is incomplete.

Another fact is that the WTC did not collapse as a result of fire.  It's IMPOSSIBLE.

So what did happen?  We can only theorize until there is a real investigation.

Either deal with the facts - or keep your thoughts to yourself.


To Nightwynd - My brother and I went into politics for the same reason.  He ran for congress on stopping NAFTA, investigating 9/11, and withdrawing from Iraq.  We got raided by a SWAT team... he lost the primary, I lost my business, and now I can't get a job (and I was an engineer at microsoft.)
My advice is to spread the word and keep your head down.

Hi Elvis,
sad to hear this.
If I remember right,
15 of the 19 alleged hijackers are still living in other countries!

Also there has never been their names on the passenger lists,
nor in the lists of the deads from these planes.

Also, it seems they really did use planes in the attacks, but it is not sure yet,
if there were real people in there or if the planes were remotely controlled.

The holes in the towers fit too well with the planes crashed into there,
so the missile theory and showing faked videos later with planes is probably not right.

There were too many people who have indepently seen the planes and also
have taken pictures and videos of them.

But I wonder, what happened to all the passengers ?

Does anybody know a good other forum, where the latest infos
about this is discussed ?

As I normally don?t want to have any politics over here in
this board, it would be a good idea to guide the further discussion to the
real 9/11 truthseekers forums, where the real insiders post and keep
this board here mainly focussed on technical free energy research.

Thanks for understanding.

Regards, Stefan (moderator)

http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/the_daily_show/index.jhtml

Hereon this forum  are the real insiders to the 9/11 truthseekers:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php

They probably controlled the radio controlled demolition from this
helicopter in the air near the WTC building.
Have a look at this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=545886459853896774

It would be good to research the pilots in the chopper.

This is a link to Aaron Russo's "Freedom to Fascism" 14 minute promo of his movie post 9-11.

Here is the Google video link:  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4035648463442185390 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4035648463442185390)

what BYU Physics Professor Dr. Steven Jones has to tell about the related physics

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

looks like google removed the video  ??? from my first post

 bereits  42%  der USAmerikaner  lasten Bush die 9/11- Katastrophe an und auch sein bizarrer Humor (http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/editorials/077) kommt in der amerikanischen Bev?lkerung zunehmend abnehmend gut an, von Gestik und allg. Performance (http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/video/001) ganz zu schweigen.

Is there any chance these folks may know what they are talking about?

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

This is an addendum from a larger report done earlier, there were thousands involved in these reports, hard to believe they are all incompetent or less than truthfull.

Real Science and witness testimony was used to compile these reports,
I find little evidence that the detractors used the same methoidology.

Tinker 8)   

Quote from: Tinker on September 03, 2006, 08:25:07 PM
Is there any chance these folks may know what they are talking about?

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

This is an addendum from a larger report done earlier, there were thousands involved in these reports, hard to believe they are all incompetent or less than truthfull.

Real Science and witness testimony was used to compile these reports,
I find little evidence that the detractors used the same methoidology.

Tinker 8)   

They tried real hard, but it would take a tremendous amount of faith to believe that report.  The floors folding and pulling in the support columns would have taken much more time to collapse than what is recorded and probably would not have 'perfectly' collapsed the building, but only partially.  That report is not worth the paper it is written on.  Sorry, I don't buy it.

This has got to be one of the most asinine threads on the face of the planet. I was watching the morning news LIVE and saw the second plane crash in real time, as did thousands (if not millions) of other Americans. There were traffic and news helicopters in the area and several broadcast the second hit as it happened.

And apparently some of you have no idea of how our "free press" loves exposing cover-ups (or any government secret). News is really a big seller over here.

Sadly, stupid stuff like this doesn't lend credibility to the "free energy" cause, and makes this forum look more like a nuthouse than a source of legitimate ideas.

Sheesh.

hey Mac.  Of course a plane hit the WTC.  Two of them as a matter of fact.  Where did you see anyone claiming they didn't??

You didn't even examine the evidence... and that makes you look like a partisan moron.  :D

Cheers

"But there's a big problem with Loose Change and with most other conspiracy theories. The more you think about them, the more you realize how much they depend on circumstantial evidence, facts without analysis or documentation, quotes taken out of context and the scattered testimony of traumatized eyewitnesses."

From the article below

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1531304-3,00.html

But I have a conspiracy for you, a guy told me he saw Elvis and Lee Harvey doin Daquri's at Harrah's in Vegas last summer, think they were plotting a comeback?.

Cheers

Looks like Osama got tired of the naysayers, stealing his thunder.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2405996&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

Quotehey Mac.  Of course a plane hit the WTC.  Two of them as a matter of fact.  Where did you see anyone claiming they didn't??

You didn't even examine the evidence... and that makes you look like a partisan moron.

Perhaps you should read (or re-read) the first few pages of this thread before labeling anyone a "partisan moron". Although after reading some of your posts about Bush, I can see why the phrase might be an integral part of your philosophy and a reasonable example of your intellect.

From the 1st reply:
"Wow, that is the best documentation I have ever seen about the 9/11 untruth...

This evidence is the best I have seen so far !
the Twin towers were destroyed probably by bomb explosions and the Pentagon was probably hit by a cruise missile, not a plane !"

From the 6th reply:
"Wow, this is really getting a SUPER FRAUD !

The evidence is overwhelming, that the 3 WTC buildings were brought down by controlled demolition !

Especially the fine dust would only occur from controlled demolition explosions !

Also you can see the single explosions, one after the other, floor after the next floor, clearly on a few wittness tapes and the steel is flying horizontally away as only controlled demolition explosions can have caused it !"

Perhaps you didn't notice the title of this thread you have so eloquently posted in?

Sadly, you've now substantiated my previous comments with ridiculous name calling.

Quote from: Mac on September 06, 2006, 06:22:42 PM
This has got to be one of the most asinine threads on the face of the planet. I was watching the morning news LIVE and saw the second plane crash in real time, as did thousands (if not millions) of other Americans. There were traffic and news helicopters in the area and several broadcast the second hit as it happened.

And apparently some of you have no idea of how our "free press" loves exposing cover-ups (or any government secret). News is really a big seller over here.

Sadly, stupid stuff like this doesn't lend credibility to the "free energy" cause, and makes this forum look more like a nuthouse than a source of legitimate ideas.

Sheesh.

Well Mac - as you can see from your quote... you called the thread asinine... and you called it stupid... and you said it made the forum look like a nuthouse.

My rule is to never make it personal until someone brings it to that level first - and you did.

But let's talk about the issue instead.

Of course planes hit the towers.  Everyone saw them.
But the buildings were brought down with explosives.  You can plainly see that from the tapes... and of course the real smoking gun is the free fall speed of the building.

At the pentagon - I'm not sure what hit it.... but it damn sure wasn't a plane.  Before the front of the building collapsed, there was a 16' hole.  That's not a jet - the fuselage would crumple for one thing... and the engines would have made more impact than the fuselage... and none of it would have went through 3 rings of the pentagon - this was the recently upgraded section with kevlar reinforcement.

As for Osama, he could have been involved - but that doens't take away from the evidence of explosives bringing down the towers.
Considering the relationship between Osama and the CAI - and Bush and the bin Ladens - and the fact that Osama always pops up with a threatning tape every election... I would say he's working for the Bush mafia.

Me Partisan??  If you call being a constitutionalist libertarian partian... then maybe I am.

Bush 41 wrote NAFTA and violated the constitution - congress is suppose to regulate trade and treaties.
Clinton signed NAFTA - and that was his job to do since the democrats would have fought it otherwise.  That makes him a traitor too.
And Bush 43 has assumed dictorial powers and called the constitution "a goddamned piece of paper" - so hell yeah, he's a traitor too.

And if you think the 5 companies that own all the media in the US are gonna rat on the criminals that deregulate them while regulating the people... you are fooling yourself.

I'll remind you that the 9/11 truth movement is not about figuring out what did happen - without an investigation, there is no way to be sure.  It's about getting an independant investigation - because obviously, the official story is a "conspiracy theory."

Why don't you look into the Bohemian Grove.  You can see from copies of their own annuals who attends - all the major media people and all the "christian" conservatives.
And then check out Alex Jones hidden camera video of the Cremation of Care ceremony... where they sacrifice a child in effigy to a stone owl.
Then tell me who the crazy people are...

Well let look at the profiteers, The oil companies and the government,and military contractors and the government. Sadom was going to drill 800 new wells and make Iraq the highest production country in OPEC. That would have actually bought down the price of oil. Now look what happened. If your tired of being gouged then it's time for a change, election time is coming. We can change one evil for another for the moment. The clear answer though is we need a new party. There is a new party but mostly worthless from the point of view of getting back the United States as it should be. They don't understand seperation of church and state. We didn't get the truth about 911. You younger guys are shocked? I have been lied to by the government all my life. Let me cap a few memerable ones for you. They made an hour long movie and made us watch it while I was in high school. Long story short the punchline was you'd grow women's breasts if you smoke pot. The potheads in my class that are still at it are thin as a skeleton and their ribs show. Then they told us the people in nam were a threat to the american way of life, the reality again was a little different. Every couple of months jungle rot made you buy new combat boots. Peroxide makes them impossible to shine. So you give the old ones to namees, on a day you have the whole day to teach them to tie them. You could tell by quick observation they could build a navy and come right over and threaten us. The most deplorable lie I can bear to mind over the years is "Only queers get aids". The day Dr. Greer said, They over did the story so bad they thought they would get caught right away. (800+ degree temp atmosphere on Venus), obvious because parachutes to land a probe could not survive, well I leave it up to you from this point, I however will never expect the truth from the gov. To tell me that they blew the buildings in NY,NY just doesn't shock and awe me at all.

If you have seen the Moon picture I posted then you know they are hiding things. Where are the missing Moon pictures and what's the actual count (at least 697 boxes from Apollo 11 alone). They crashed into the Moon just the other day, What did they destroy? Think use your own brain. Look at the antiquated shit they are trying to palm off on us as a serious attempt to go back to the moon. You could come up with and impliment a better plan. God I hear them talking about Saturn rockets again (what the hells amatter with them, how stupid do they think we are?).

First the official release was there is no chemtrail type activity, it doesn't exist. I'm not going to do the whole history here, the present is, they are trying to boost immunity response by dumping carcinogens and biologicals and poisons on us. What college idiot with a degree in pot and beer with a minor of sorority girls is trying to convince the public of this? Getting sick weakens the body usually permanently, metals attack the nerves permanent. Disease weakens organs. You don't just breath and eat this stuff you also take it in transdermally. The fallout from these chemtrails are entering our water to give us a third dose and will be leaching into the water for years. Before you buy into any more lies you have to learn to recognise what is a lie. Remember I warned you about chemtrails. Who will profit, the drug companies and the government. Notice what name keeps coming up.

Can anyone give me a raw estimate of how many man hours it took to set these charges. Lot of prep time before the fact I'll bet.

I like to point out to you the scared government crapping their pants right after 911, what caused the fear? The US citizens coming together united under a comon cause. They want us divided and fighting amoungst ourselves. Divided we are conquered, they don't want us united for any reason.

Look at this from the prospective of the building was less than 50 years old and was well maintained were did the rust for that thermite reaction come from? The industial paint on i-beams is awesome and rust in quantities to cause a fire to do that much damage could not have existed. We are discussing a pride of the city building here that had a good repair record. The roof was not allowed to leak for a long period of time. The fires still had hot spots a week after the planes hit. Go to the scap yard and grab chunk of i-beam thats been outside for a little while, pour a little aluminium powder on it, and light it with a small strip of magnesium. Don't pick one that's been in a mud puddle for ten years because that's not were the beams from wtc came from. When I worked for Erie Mill and Press we used used beams now and then because we couldn't wait for a special order. (because of royalties)
We never had a problem with rust in quanities, usually the beams looked good enough to visually pass for new.

QuoteWell Mac - as you can see from your quote... you called the thread asinine... and you called it stupid... and you said it made the forum look like a nuthouse.

Yes, and I apologize for posting that before reading the whole thread. Having since done so, I now realize what a waste of time it was to state the blatantly obvious. If anyone actually believes this nonsense they have my deepest sympathy.

I won't intrude into your little paranoid thread again. Have fun.

Your damn right they're up to more than we're told.  And that's the point.
The official stories do not check out and it's not just a few details here and there - it's the whole damn thing.

A better plot to look at is 7/7 in London.  The mastermind was an MI5 agent.  And why did the last bomber call his peers after the bombs went off?  if it were a suicide job... what's the point?

You want evidence of Government False Flag Operations?  Look up operation Ajax and northwooods.
That's US government declassified info detailing some of the shit we have done (ajax) and proposed (northwoods)

If you don't think they would do it and lie - you're crazy.  And if you don't think "king of the world" is worth a lie like that... then you're crazy too.

and yes these men are contolling us with energy - so it's relevant to the forum.  These men may also have control over technology that is "black-oped" and out of bounds for national security - convenient for the oily boys, eh?

Kevin Ryan is Site Manager at Environmental Health Laboratories (EHL) in South Bend, Indiana. This is a division of UL, the product-compliance and testing giant. Because UL certified the WTC steel for its ability to withstand fires, the steel's performance on September 11 is obviously of concern to the company.

This is what he say's about 9/11...

"Anyone who honestly looks at the evidence has difficulty finding anything in the official story of 9/11 that is believable. It?s not just one or two strange twists or holes in the story, the whole thing is bogus from start to end."

here's a good link - http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0506/S00144.htm

Media is the medium in which the elite talk to the masses. taken from www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com
I have talked with this guy. I'm starting to see what is going on.

Now because I was at Bilderberg in Ottawa, saw David Rockefeller, Queen Beatrix(owner of shell oil), Hillary Clinton and 130 other elite.
Now why are these elite meeting every year in secret.
I protested, because I guess I'm one of the few who don't like Iraqi children being hurt. Babies grown deformed from depleted uranium.

I saw a movie called "Stealth" in Futureshop(video store). This is total New World Order, get the terrorists(freedom fighters) kind of stuff.
Neat movie and special effects but this is propaganda. Stealth plane to kill terrorists.

Don't you love the thimeserol in the vaccines(mercury). Don't you love the fluoride(Hitler) in the water dumming you down.
Don't you love the fact that you have macromedia video that let's them enable microphones and you video cam on you.
Just right click and go settings, enable microphone and video. Google wants to use this. Programmers can look at this and say yes that's possible.  Is it a registry setting. Oh that's easy. I'm a programmer myself.
Don't you just love NSA spying on your telephones and email.

George Bush is talking like a mind controlled idiot. Just listen to his speeches.
It's shocks me every day people believe his lies.
Of course Bush is just a puppet. You people should watch the machurian candidate by Denzel Washington. It will open your eyes.
It is proven that he has had microphones in his ear while giving speeches.

You people have a duty to expose the corruption of 911.

I have nieces and nephews and I don't want them to grow up under a satanic new world order scheme.

When I went to protest, boy I felt good about myself, what a rush.

I will do my best on september 11. I'll do whatever I can to remember the 3000 people that died.

I actively write to news journalists and ask them, please expose 911. Please do this, it does wake people up.

http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/23/23492/1.html

Quote from: btester1 on September 08, 2006, 01:16:58 AM
Media is the medium in which the elite talk to the masses. taken from www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com
I have talked with this guy. I'm starting to see what is going on.

Now because I was at Bilderberg in Ottawa, saw David Rockefeller, Queen Beatrix(owner of shell oil), Hillary Clinton and 130 other elite.
Now why are these elite meeting every year in secret.
I protested, because I guess I'm one of the few who don't like Iraqi children being hurt. Babies grown deformed from depleted uranium.

I saw a movie called "Stealth" in Futureshop(video store). This is total New World Order, get the terrorists(freedom fighters) kind of stuff.
Neat movie and special effects but this is propaganda. Stealth plane to kill terrorists.

Don't you love the thimeserol in the vaccines(mercury). Don't you love the fluoride(Hitler) in the water dumming you down.
Don't you love the fact that you have macromedia video that let's them enable microphones and you video cam on you.
Just right click and go settings, enable microphone and video. Google wants to use this. Programmers can look at this and say yes that's possible.  Is it a registry setting. Oh that's easy. I'm a programmer myself.
Don't you just love NSA spying on your telephones and email.

George Bush is talking like a mind controlled idiot. Just listen to his speeches.
It's shocks me every day people believe his lies.
Of course Bush is just a puppet. You people should watch the machurian candidate by Denzel Washington. It will open your eyes.
It is proven that he has had microphones in his ear while giving speeches.

You people have a duty to expose the corruption of 911.

I have nieces and nephews and I don't want them to grow up under a satanic new world order scheme.

When I went to protest, boy I felt good about myself, what a rush.

I will do my best on september 11. I'll do whatever I can to remember the 3000 people that died.

I actively write to news journalists and ask them, please expose 911. Please do this, it does wake people up.

Not to move too far away of topic but since the media involvent is being brought up, here are few items I think we all should be aware off.

Fake TV News: Widespread and Undisclosed
Paid for by the government and corporations with no public disclosure.
http://www.prwatch.org/fakenews/execsummary
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/farsetta.html
The above programs were or our local PBS stations, you can get tme by contacting the station(s).

This is getting more interesting:
As one employee said "There's no sense of integrity as far as having a line that can't be crossed."http://www.outfoxed.org/OutfoxedSummary.php


I assume we all have seen this live when it happened back in 2003. Do you all remember the media fanfare and the kudos for a job well done, high 5?s for the power?s that be here, not to mention the ?local participation there??

Army Stage-Managed Fall of Hussein Statue
By David Zucchino
Times Staff Writer
July 3, 2004

The Army's internal study of the war in Iraq criticizes some efforts by its own psychological operations units, but one spur-of-the-moment effort last year produced the most memorable image of the invasion.

As the Iraqi regime was collapsing on April 9, 2003, Marines converged on Firdos Square in central Baghdad, site of an enormous statue of Saddam Hussein. It was a Marine colonel ? not joyous Iraqi civilians, as was widely assumed from the TV images ? who decided to topple the statue, the Army report said. And it was a quick-thinking Army psychological operations team that made it appear to be a spontaneous Iraqi undertaking.

After the colonel ? who was not named in the report ? selected the statue as a "target of opportunity," the psychological team used loudspeakers to encourage Iraqi civilians to assist, according to an account by a unit member.

But Marines had draped an American flag over the statue's face.

"God bless them, but we were thinking ... that this was just bad news," the member of the psychological unit said. "We didn't want to look like an occupation force, and some of the Iraqis were saying, 'No, we want an Iraqi flag!' "

Someone produced an Iraqi flag, and a sergeant in the psychological operations unit quickly replaced the American flag.

Ultimately, a Marine recovery vehicle toppled the statue with a chain, but the effort appeared to be Iraqi-inspired because the psychological team had managed to pack the vehicle with cheering Iraqi children. Full story here (may have to subscribe to get to the archives-old articles)
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-na-statue3jul03,1,1220327,print.story?coll=la-home-headlines

??? and let?s not even touch the Jessica Lynch fiasco?.or some of the later admitted fake terror news releases.

One may very well argue that a na?ve, uneducated, emotionally manipulated public, is so much easier to control
and fleece.

Note: some of the links are old and maybe archived or need subscription to the newspapers to access them.

here is a working video from video.google.com i also updated my first post with the same link below.
Loose Change 2E:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7218920724339766288&sourceid=top100newfeed

Well I know this is not ats but I have a problem with the post developements. We didn't strike the countries were the terrorist came from, We are expected to set aside freedoms, I really don't like the looks of this proposed national ID card, Christian religeous freedoms, privacy, freedom of press, freedom of speach, even freedom of science. Try to go down and buy some chemicals for a project. They are actually subverting scientific exploration, which means they are limiting education. They haven't closed our borders and noone has even mentioned our even larger unwatched coastline. Why hasn't there been at least a halfway decent response to the attack, and surely there was a lot more to it than 19 Arabs, someone had to help them from inside and we haven't even IDed all of the enemy yet. Pennsylvania Minutemen are ready. We were the second state to sign the Declaration and we will probably be the first to stand up and tell them were to stick their National ID Card. Saudi Arabia is still in control of our port cities, isn't that scary?

Boy it's nice to see Alex Jones bullhorning at the trade towers yesterday in New York.
Most all firefighters and police now believe it's an inside job. Since now most of them are dying, caughing up blood from the asbestos and mercury. They didn't know since the EPA covered it up the pollution.
Please pray for those that are sick.

9/11 was an inside job!! 9/11 was an inside job!!
Lot's of energy there yesterday.

Today it was the council on foreign relations. The cause of the inside job.
9/11 was a CFR job!! 9/11 was a CFR job!!

I'll post the video link when I see it.
Watch for it on http://www.prisonplanet.com/
it's going to come soon.

Video of Alex Jones and others bullhorning the CFR in New York.

These are the criminal elite. Watch the video. It's very exciting.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2006/130906confrontcfr.htm

A perfect circle - counting bodies like sheep...music video is a great indicator of what is happening in the real world (like 2 other songs I can name).

http://www.colboard.com/viewforum.php?f=10

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2046393742348211186&q=nuke&hl=en

I guess nukes can be scale up with no limit, this is probably the biggest only because they don't want to destroy the world with a test...biological weapones that target only certain genes are in exitence, microwave weapones, dirty nukes, I'm not supporting them but just telling that they have these weapons not even including the flying socors indicated in this vid http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=125359819100282680&q=ufo
here's another ufo vid http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7472823022720725604&q=ufo&hl=en 
I can't tell that they're acting in the slitest, and they are infront of a big audience...I know this is a whole nother level to the "conspirecy throeries". these I trust about 60% but the 9/11 I trust 100%
fact is all thier stories match almost perfectly and no other's do.

This is meticulous and highly forensic stuff.

http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7752483415674202196&q=alex+jones&hl=en

"In two hours, Alex Jones reveals the Globalists' master plan for world domination. In this powerful expose, Jones explains why the elite are using manufactured terrorism to drive the populations into accepting tyranny. The Masters of Terror details the execution of the September 11th attacks and the ensuing whitewash, the cashless society control-grid, implanted microchips, mind-control, militarization of police, concentration camps, foreign troops massing on US soil, the USA Patriot Act, and Homeland Security taking over the states."
website: InfoWars.com

Some October suprises? Is there a big bang coming to hit the markets? If you believe that those  in the know use insider information before major events then you might be interested on the HUGE number of October 6th put options for the big indexes. Check out the concentrated puts on the Diamonds DOW Trust (DIA) (https://fastquote.fidelity.com/webxpress/ia_optionchain_frameset.phtml?priced=Y&SID_VALUE_ID=DIA)

Ditto for the S&P Depository Receipts (SPY) (https://fastquote.fidelity.com/webxpress/ia_optionchain_frameset.phtml?priced=Y&SID_VALUE_ID=SPY)

And the NASDAQ (QQQQ) (https://fastquote.fidelity.com/webxpress/ia_optionchain_frameset.phtml?priced=Y&SID_VALUE_ID=QQQQ)

Even the Market Vectors Gold Miners (https://fastquote.fidelity.com/webxpress/ia_optionchain_frameset.phtml?priced=Y&SID_VALUE_ID=GDX) has significant puts for October 6th

something wicked this way comes, and the smart money has already taken preventative steps.

Selected edited commentary is posted daily with FMNN responses to the  
FEEDBACK section of www.FreeMarketNews.com.

there were a whole bunch of put options  
bought just days before 9/11/01: on airline stocks and any stocks that  
would suffer after the attack. Does this increase in put options mean  
something evil this way comes? One wonders.

Not My Son in Video, Declares Atta Senior
Tuesday October 03rd 2006, 6:57 pm

http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=587 (http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=587)

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Terrorism&loid=8.0.346051476&par= (http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Terrorism&loid=8.0.346051476&par=)

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkurtnimmo.com%2Fimages%2Fatta_and_father.jpg&hash=eacb8f9591fe268042bfd46d764edbd19ca699bf)

In fairness, youââ,¬â,,¢d think the corporate media would hear out Muhammad
al-Amir al-Sayd Atta, father of patsy hijacker Mohammed Atta, who has
told the Saudi daily al-Watan the latest intelligence video
fabrication, allegedly showing Mohammed and Ziad Jarrah, is a crass
fake. ââ,¬Å"The video-testament of my son is false and I continue to believe
he is innocent,ââ,¬Â Atta said. ââ,¬Å"There is a big difference between this
photo and the images shown by the Americansââ,¬â€that one is not my boyââ,¬Â¦.
ââ,¬Å"The Americans tampered with and falsified that video ââ,¬Â¦ they want to
change the truth in order to achieve their goals in the Middle East.ââ,¬Â

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-554962241935608622&q=alex+jones+productions&hl=en
         
"This is a weekly report from The Alex Jones Report, a local show of his on Austin Public Access Televison aired on March 15, 2005. Included are features on torture, the corruption of the United Nations, and a boat trip around ground zero, New York. Alex then returns to the studio for his weekly television show filmed live in Austin, Texas.

This video is copyrighted, but Alex Jones has permitted and encourged the distribution of these videos for non-profit, educational purposes. If you would like to help Alex Jones and/or have a hard copy, buy one from him by going through his website. It can be done online or through his office."

Al Jones is very suspective. there's a good chance that he's working for the Zionists, it's hard to tell though
http://www.opposingdigits.com/alex/

Alex jones is far from perfect, he stirs-up anger, and helps polarize the people. He acts nutty, he talks about angersome things alot, and he bad mouths the cops and army. This could be a tactic by the NWO to separate the population, because you would want a certain kind of person in the police and army forces, and the other would be better if they were out protesting so you could throw them in camps. They see the population as a solution where you put something in that will separate it, and then simmer off the threatening sludge. It's best if the people keep their cool and stick together.

The ?Loose Change? vid? is a good introduction to the crumminess of the ?official? 9/11 explanation!


(jimbo!)


(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg99.imageshack.us%2Fimg99%2F1195%2Faccolade1jf4.jpg&hash=3908abb326d9d48cb47cec862ba79f29013f787d)

 9.Rev. 25.11.06
   
see the video Here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7752483415674202196&q=alex+jones&hl=en

"In two hours, Alex Jones reveals the Globalists' master plan for world domination.
In this powerful expose, Jones explains why the elite are using manufactured terrorism
to drive the populations into accepting tyranny.
The Masters of Terror details the execution of the September 11th attacks
and the ensuing whitewash, the cashless society control-grid, implanted microchips,
mind-control, militarization of police, concentration camps, foreign troops massing
on US soil, the USA Patriot Act, and Homeland Security taking over the states."
website: InfoWars.com

Alex Jones collection:
http://www.lastingnetworks.com/alex/

Also Michael Ruppert's Truth and Lies of 9-11:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8797525979024486145

My favorite political movie to suggest to friends:
http://www.archive.org/details/Michael_Badnarik
(its like 6 hours long but well worth it)

I have a very large collection of such videos and I'm glad to hear other members of this community are doing political as well as scientific research.

http://guardian.150m.com
http://guardian.150m.com/wtc/videos.htm

Alex jones, is being payed by the very people that he is talking about, he is twisting some facts,to maintain the illusion, because those very elite are aware that they will help scum lucifer to mechanic a false comeing of Christ,useing Satellites like a video projection on the sky ,

It also has a reason about Jahtruth.co.uk, and why Alex jones is actually there,like a wolf brain wash the people who had no read about jahtruth , better lies(elements of truth) will fool them more,although yes but beware Alex jones is being payed by these Criminals,and is twisting and concealing some facts!

Because once the 'ARK OF THE Covenant' is recovered by JAH(and it will and the Queen of england will have to step down)this gown 'illuminati' foundation will be exposed, and this is why they get people like Alex jones,to maintain the illusion,he is twisting and concealing facts and this is what this Alex jones stuff is about.

lltfdaniel1,

I have met Alex Jones in person. He is a resonable guy.
Don't think he would have bullhorned Bilderberg if he is paid by them.

Buildings don't fall at free fall speed on 9/11.

Learn a little math and science and you can see things come together.
It's always good to see for yourself sometimes.

Have a look at this documentation - you simply must see it (and it's only 50 minutes long)!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8677389869548020370&q=oil+smoke+mirrors

I especially liked the part at minute 26.

http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=4912480941133919609  Aktenzeichen 911 ungel?st  WDR Dokumentation 47 Min

http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=2851928635697237442  wahre geschichte des golfkrieges 1 std.



http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=2768368762284821227  Video Papierflieger bauen   1.Klasse  +++#Me

http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=1098259204041420273 lachendes baby 2 min ##me

I see a lot of claims and charges in this thread but very little substance or proof ie supporting evidence.

But now someone has gone to a lot of effort below to respond to the nay-sayers.

As always your mileage may vary.

You folks in Europe should understand that in  North America that all opinions are allowed, but as Regan said "Trust but Verify"   

Tinker

http://thepiratebay.org/tor/3597525/scrw911mystrs_full.avi

This might help sorry ???

Tinker you need to research only one angle...
Building fall times. When you examine the fall
times of all 3 buildings you'll understand us.

The science is there, but everyone is busy arguing
about drone planes and missles hitting the pentagon.

The buildings were clearly brought down by well
placed demolition charges, but that leads to more questions.

Just look at the fall times in ratio to free fall speeds...

Thanks for hearing out the other side,
~Dingus

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.channel4.com%2Fentertainment%2Ftv%2Fmicrosites%2FD%2Fdaily_show%2Fimages%2Fdaily_2_163.jpg&hash=a105b5e6180666d5e8803f1f0b180d5155ac31a9)

;D :D http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/the_daily_show/index.jhtml  :o :)

Hi paranoid guys (like me)

Very sorry if this information is not new...
I didn't take the time to read the all thread. Shame on me...

What about this stuff?
http://www.voltairenet.org/article144998.html (http://www.voltairenet.org/article144998.html)
Three of the most famous US rap stars, Mb Def, Immortal Technique and Eminem composed a song to denounce the September 11th lie : ? Tell the Truth, Nigga ! ?.

Song?s lyrics excerpt :
Ben Ladidn't blow up the projects
It was U nigga
Tell the truth, nigga
Bush knocked down the towers
Tell the truth, nigga
.....
The rest is worth to be listened , IMHO.

CU
Best

Quote from: NerzhDishual on February 07, 2007, 09:53:12 PM


Hi paranoid guys (like me)

Very sorry if this information is not new...
I didn't take the time to read the all thread. Shame on me...

What about this stuff?
http://www.voltairenet.org/article144998.html (http://www.voltairenet.org/article144998.html)
Three of the most famous US rap stars, Mb Def, Immortal Technique and Eminem composed a song to denounce the September 11th lie : ? Tell the Truth, Nigga ! ?.

Song?s lyrics excerpt :
Ben Ladidn't blow up the projects
It was U nigga
Tell the truth, nigga
Bush knocked down the towers
Tell the truth, nigga
.....
The rest is worth to be listened , IMHO.

CU
Best

thanks, i am adding this to my songs list.


peace

 http://www.takebackthemedia.com/true911.html

http://erroneousbusczh.homestead.com/9-11Plot.html

For those sceptical of government involvement in the 9/11 attacks consider the following facts -

WTC 7, a 47 floor building collapsed only 5 hours after the twin towers. Initially the blame was put on falling debris and fires from the other buildings, but since so much tv footage showed a perfect controlled demolition the powers that be must have decided it was too blatant. They had Silverstein come on tv in that famous footage and admit they "pulled" the building.

THIS WAS A BIG MISTAKE

If you know anything about controlled demolitions, you would know it takes weeks to set up, especially with a large 47 floor building. The plans for the building have to be found, holes have to be drilled, compartments have to be opened up to expose the frame structure, explosives placed at key points on every level e.t.c

And they will have you believe that all this was done in 5 hours?

Even if a professional demolition company had all the tons of explosives, the plans ready, and 100 men on standby it would be next to impossible to pull it off in only 5 hours.
Yet the government would have you believe that in the chaos of 9/11, with all those dead firefighters, police and civilians, that they were able to achieve this?

The timeline and facts of WTC 7 are indisputable proof of the official 9/11 story being a fraud.


Having said that we do need to be wary as there is a lot of disinformation out there that is designed to make the 9/11 truth movement look foolish. Such things as the hologram/no plane theory. Even the Pentagon cruise missle theory is suspect - if you dig deeper you will find a lot of the pictures released such as the jet turbine may have been staged, and at some later point the real footage of the plane crashing will be released designed to discredit the whole 9/11 truth movement.

And as for Alex Jones - he is probably the single greatest warrior we have fighting against government sponsored terror and the new world order. Check out his films

Terrorstorm
Martial Law - Rise of the police state
9/11 - The Road to Tyranny

All his films are available on google, youtube or the torrents for free viewing. His films are way better than Loose Change. The latest one 'Terrorstorm' has gotten into the google top 10 about a dozen times and its view rating counter has been reset to zero a dozen times. I am not kidding we have screen captures of this, the cia planted censors must be hard at work over in google land.

Math of the Fall speed of the buildings

I don't know how to do the math, but say we ignor the support structure of the buildings, because they can be argued by debunkers, and only focus on the Mass fall speed. Meaning take, in a simple mathematical model, say 5 1kg balls and have them not be supported by anything, just start falling when the "above" one comes in contact with the "lower" ones. If this proves that it should have fallen slower, or even at the same speed, it would be a great and simple explaination to "forum serfers."

I will post diagrams on forums and argue it out if somone can do the math. The only possible problem is, does the fall of 5 balls of 1kg differ from the fall speed of 5 balls of 10 tonnes, in a "too ratio" comparision?

The fall speed of the twin towers is a good point to bring up. Engineering estimates of collapse time are from 50 to 80 seconds if the floors really did collapse pancake style.
But as we all saw, it only took about 10 seconds for a 110 level building to come down at freefall speed.
This is just another piece of evidence that shows demolitions (thermite cutting charges)were used to weaken the central beams.

Hello everyone,
I am the author of the 9/11=PNAC Plot page,
also known as
http://erroneousbusczh.homestead.com/9-11Plot.html,
which PESE just posted for you to look over.
I've spent years compiling the images and the links and have currently 757 stories which are numbered for easy reference, and a whole bunch of images.
The problem with the work of building this page has been that I've had to read everything first. Consequently I'm now a 9/11 addict, and am trying to find a 911aholics anonymous or any other rehad center specializing in recovery from too much 9/11. ( just kidding )
I've taken to writing in the occassional blog, but have learned some shocking things.
For instance there is one out there that's festering with argumentative wise guys.
Several are pretty competitive and I usually end up annoyed at having gone back to see if I need to reply because a wise ass has some trip he wants to shove onto everyone else.
I just joined this blog because I really like the tone of your interactions and will gladly field any questions you might have as yet unanswered. There is still a way to go so don't give up, and for reference, trust me, you can't find a better resource than my page.
Rev. Michael V. Goldsun
San Francisco
http://erroneousbusczh.homestead.com/9-11Plot.html

Von: Andreas Steinke (weibsvolk@online.de) [Profil]
Datum: 28.02.2007 17:44
Message-ID: <1hu9abx.1wyql0ua9aj3rN%weibsvolk@online.de>
Newsgroup: de.alt.paranormal
Der Autor dieses Postings w?nscht keine Archivierung. Es wird am 30.03. aus dem Archiv entfernt.
Paul Joseph Watson & Alex Jones
Prison Planet
Tuesday, February 27, 2007 (UPDATED 5:36AM CST)

In einem erstaunlichen Video welches gestern aus den Archiven
ausgegraben wurde, meldet die BBC an 9/11 den Kollaps des
World-Trade-Center-Geb?udes Nummer sieben
mehr als 20 Minuten bevor es um 17.20 Uhr tats?chlich in sich
zusammengefallen war.

BBC-Reporterin Jane Standley spricht in einer Liveaufnahme ?ber den
Kollaps von WTC-7 (auch bekannt als Salomon-Brothers-Geb?ude) w?hrend
das Geb?ude intakt hinter ihr in einiger Entfernung deutlich zu erkennen
ist.

Wenige Minuten vor dem tats?chlichen Kollaps bricht die Live?bertragung
der Reporterin verd?chtigerweise ab.


http://infokrieg.tv/bbc_wtc7_kollaps270207.htm (http://infokrieg.tv/bbc_wtc7_kollaps270207.htm)

English movie at:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/47ae2fd7-0a9f-4928-9d30-f53741139733/911Building7Collapse (http://www.esnips.com/doc/47ae2fd7-0a9f-4928-9d30-f53741139733/911Building7Collapse)

DAILY NEWS :

http://www.stormloader.com/members/pese/fe/index.html 
Link zu :(alternativer wie kritischer Presse)  deutsch english

Emil



Nice Video : Molten Metals: Controlled Demolition
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd1-Dp_-7WI&mode=related&search=

Interesting WTC 7 close-up videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=antql-Nz4bY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua7pkQQ1AiU

http://www.911komplott.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=267&Itemid=2

German audio version of loose change ( not just German subtitles) :

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6487589132427993552


Das Loose Change Video endlich in deutscher Sprache !


Brennt es auf DVD und schenkt es Euren Verwandten !
Auch die Leute ohne Computer und Internet sollen es auf Ihren DVD
Playern sehen !

Z.B mit Ahead Nero Vision oder Ulead Moviefactory kann man
ganz einfach ein AVI File zu einer DVD machen !

Hello everybody
Salve a tutti
Bonjour ? tous

IMHO: this very forum is unique because of the high 'spiritual' level of most of his  members.
Sorry, nothing new to said about 911. It is obvious. Is is not?

Best.

Mike Ruppert has the best grip on the whole 9/11 situation and ties it into peak oil which makes it make a lot more sense.  He thinks the 9/11 truth movement is a wild goose chase setup to distract attention from the far more easily provable conspiracy angles.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4046564743329239954

Michael Rupert is right... Talk of unmanned planes, missles, and other far fetched half baked concepts are flimsy... If everyone just latched on to one factual point we would have accomplished a lot more investigating by now. The best example is the fall times of the towers. Two of the fall times coinside with free fall times, ABSOLUTELY proving the use of explosives. Also the molten steel in the basment of the towers was measured to be 1200DF after smoldering for a week. That is conclusively hotter than the combustion temperatures of jet fuel and diesel.

If people would just let the other facts rest for a while and concentrate on these two facts, than we might just get to the bottom of this situation.

Here is a must see documentary, which sheds light upon
flight 93 and the mysterious bottom addon(bomb ?) on the
planes, that have hit the towers !

How much more evidence do we need ?

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-5386487651203625811

There were no planes that crashed into the WTC buildings - these "planes" were computer-generated by a company called WESCAM (= we scam?).

I know it sounds ridiculous when you hear this for the first time but please check the facts. Maybe you think - what about all the "witnisses" and the "amateur" video footage? Consider this - how easy would it be for intelligence with the media in the back to make people believe that actually "real" planes hit the WTC? 
There were real planes but they didn`t crash into the WTC and were detected completely elsewhere on the radar.
--> German article: http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/html/result.xhtml?url=/tp/r4/artikel/23/23492/1.html&words=Bekenntnisse&T=bekenntnisse

Watch these videos!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_ySSJ_L6Zs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO9U1cIZM84
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZm2YvjaZ3o

And here are some interesting links: 
http://www.911closeup.com/index.shtml?ID=71
http://911tvfakery.blogspot.com/

Hmm,
what about this amateur video ?

http://jeremymorrison.com/wtcplane.html

Do you think it was faked too ?

To edit out an incoming plane from a few videos is probably pretty simple,
as you can do this easily with copy and paste the blue sky pixels over the plane?s position..
So you never know, if these are not attemps by any agency to play cat and mouse games
to  mix you up...
?

P.S. Did anybody found out, what happened to the passengers
of the real flights ?
Are there any news about flight 93 landing somewhere else ?

Please post the info here, I don?t have much time to look around in other
places right now.

Thanks.

Interesting background informations:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EZ9BofDUXv0

Quote from: hartiberlin on May 25, 2007, 09:56:26 AM
Hmm,
what about this amateur video ?

http://jeremymorrison.com/wtcplane.html

Do you think it was faked too ?

Yes, I believe all the so called amateur videos are faked.
Has the government the resources to make CG-planes look almost ( ;D) real? Definitely.

What happened to the passengers of the real flights and where did the real planes land? I don`t know.

Bottom line for me is that 9/11 was an inside job - no question about that - and that the perpetrators have an agenda. 9/11 was just the beginning...
- 9/11
- Afghanistan
- Iraq
..................
- Assassination of prince Harry?
- World economic collapse?
- Iran?
- Russia/Europe/World?
..................
"New World Order"?

Time will tell...

So, if these were not planes, what was it then that hit the 2 Towers ?
Missiles ?

But then, what kind of missiles ?

Again 2 Global Hawks ?

At least you could see, that the wing span on the holes
in the 2 towers tells us, that it was no small missile, but
one with long wings..

As one lady, who saw the "plane" hit the tower shouted in one video:
"This was not a commercial airliner plane"

So, what could it be ?

The main question also remains, where have been the passengers
brought to from the real flights ?

What about the family members ?
Didn?t they try to track down at least Flight 93 having landed on this
other airport ?

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on May 22, 2007, 06:08:19 PM
Talk of unmanned planes, missles, and other far fetched half baked concepts are flimsy... If everyone just latched on to one factual point we would have accomplished a lot more investigating by now. The best example is the fall times of the towers. Two of the fall times coinside with free fall times, ABSOLUTELY proving the use of explosives. Also the molten steel in the basment of the towers was measured to be 1200DF after smoldering for a week. That is conclusively hotter than the combustion temperatures of jet fuel and diesel.

If people would just let the other facts rest for a while and concentrate on these two facts, than we might just get to the bottom of this situation.

Even if they were missles or unmanned jets, it still makes you sound like a lunitic.
Trust me! Stick to something rational that can be easily confirmed by a credible source.
Examples: fall times, burn temperatures, sizemology, and timelines.

There is enough damning evidence in those FACTUAL measurements to disprove the official story, but when people start talking about missles and unmarked millitary jets it obscures the hard data. People were planted to start these rumors as an attempt to discredit the truth movement. So please drop the missle theory! Be smarter than they give you credit for... There were a dozen cameras that captured the pentagon impact, and only one of those pieces of footage have been released... Now a conspiracy nut will assume that this means the other views clearly show a missle and thats why they were unreleased, but the truth is: The only angle that looks like a missle is the one they released, and once this missle theory becomes a pillar of the truth movement they will release the other views to discredit the whole movement. Wake up! The missle theory is disinformation!

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on May 25, 2007, 07:59:17 PM

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on May 22, 2007, 06:08:19 PM

Even if they were missles or unmanned jets, it still makes you sound like a lunitic.
Trust me! Stick to something rational that can be easily confirmed by a credible source.
Examples: fall times, burn temperatures, sizemology, and timelines.

The main problem is that many people just don't care even if you show them the best evidence (WTC 7, fall times, visible explosions,...)!
How many people even know that a third building (WTC 7) collapsed that day? I guess not many because ignoring such facts is just the most convenient way to live on.
When I start talking about 9/11 with some of my friends they just say something like this: "Oh no, not these conspiracies again. You are so negative - think positive!"
So who cares?
I think something BIG has to happen to wake up the people - otherwise it's much to comfortable to not change ones view of the world.

And besides I don't talk about this missile/global hawk/whatever-theory to too many people (except here in the forum) because you are absolutely right - it makes you look completely like a lunatic.


German joke:
Stehen 2 Schweine am Trog und fressen und fressen. Pl?tzlich sagt das eine: Du wei?t du was? Ich glaube, die Menschen geben uns nur soviel zu fressen, damit wir dick und fett werden und am Ende werden Sie uns t?ten und wom?glich aufessen.
Sagt das andere: H?r endlich auf mit deinen Verschw?rungstheorien und friss weiter!

Is the plane missing here ?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfxjBfQZ9qU

Live phone call from WTC until it was destroyed by controled demolition:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLPwem5JsQk&NR=1

Krass !

It's so obvious to me but I guess Americans are too scarred to sue Silberstien for damages, having knowledge to the collapse of WT7 would also mean he is implicit and knew of WT1 and 2.

Fireman all over the US could simply strike until there was an independent Investigation free from Bush family plants to find the truth.

You could also sue the Port Authority, New York City and Guliani for destruction of evidence.

But I guess too many people are scarred of the boogy man...

I know what I would do.....

Water board the buggers until they submit, since your constitution no longer exists and torture is condoned...If that's the rules they want to play by, good! Bring it on!

it seems to me nobody talks about anything else except the two towers and the free falling. However, I must agree w/ Albert Johnson that people will look at you like an idiot and you can't really do much about it by telling ur friends unless u spread it to strangers who are actually ignorant about these things (best over the internet). For one thing, I did not know how the WTC 7 fell ... (that it even fell)

There are several things that interests me regarding the events of 9/11 that I'm not sure if they were discussed or mentioned enough of.

1. Regarding the videos of the Pentagon, why aren't we fighting for the release of the tapes that was captured at the Sheraton National Hotel, the Nexcomm/Citgo gas station, and Virginia Department of Transportation traffic cameras? We can confirm what hit the building if we speculated what was on the video recording. (Is there a possibility of tampering?) Is there something I'm not aware of about why we should even bother with them ?

2. Regarding the collapse of the twin towers, I don't hear much about people debating about why were the steel not collected for investigation but instead shipped overseas to be re-melted. In addition to that, the same goes to WTC7. I'm sure investigation regarding WTC7 could've brought light into something (like how the building fell).

3. The remains of the 4th plane crash at a field left traces of something ... were there any traces of bodies? I don't recall. What was the story behind this place crash incident?

Quote from: nomisage on May 29, 2007, 06:00:39 PM
1. Regarding the videos of the Pentagon, why aren't we fighting for the release of the tapes that was captured at the Sheraton National Hotel, the Nexcomm/Citgo gas station, and Virginia Department of Transportation traffic cameras? We can confirm what hit the building if we speculated what was on the video recording. (Is there a possibility of tampering?) Is there something I'm not aware of about why we should even bother with them ?

The FBI took them and will not release them, unless its to discredit the truth movement. All the tapes show a plane smashing in to the building. Which is great for them, since everyones playing mission impossible and arguing about missles and unmanned planes. For now they released the only perpendicular angle footage, the reason for this is that watching it from 90 degrees makes for the shortest ammount of frames showing the planes aproach. Once they have people really deeply hooked on this "missle theory" they'll release the other tapes proving it was a plane in an effort to discredit the WHOLE movement by dicrediting this one very popular theory. Read about the gulf of tonkin and you'll know they wouldn't empty the planes first. People just like this theory because it makes it seem like less people died that day.

Quote from: nomisage on May 29, 2007, 06:00:39 PM
2. Regarding the collapse of the twin towers, I don't hear much about people debating about why were the steel not collected for investigation but instead shipped overseas to be re-melted. In addition to that, the same goes to WTC7. I'm sure investigation regarding WTC7 could've brought light into something (like how the building fell).

Most of it was stored in NJ for a few months and then sold as scrap by gov Rudolf Giuliani. Standard procedure with building materials grade scrap steel. Not as suspicious as it seems when compared to similar controled demo clean ups.

Quote from: nomisage on May 29, 2007, 06:00:39 PM
3. The remains of the 4th plane crash at a field left traces of something ... were there any traces of bodies? I don't recall. What was the story behind this place crash incident?

You mean the Penn "crash", flight 93... That whole story is full of holes. Something is deffinitely wierd with that one, but since there is no way to logically prove anything about it I still focus on physics driven inconsistancies.

~Dingus

http://web.archive.org/web/20050314173908/www.klaus-krusche.de/wtc7.htm

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=717577569

http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-2223080048073279529

Hi All,
there was a lawsuit to release observation camera tapes.

Now this supports the theory, that no Boing hit the Pentagon,
but a missile. No plane to see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QgUdMCZ5ik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAgYVJ1jKZ0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4O4R0LWCQ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mseU9tpwxsA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mseU9tpwxsA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LJvFjsl6zk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJgh-0lcHQA



Not a very big hole and the medical team looks bored,
because no bodies were found...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QhhnALXW98

Couldn,t find a place for this, but this room seems fitting!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xj8ZadKgdC0&v3

Dirt

To stop this.
read more alternative news.
somes germena english french
collected here:
www.pese.150m.com/li.htm

You have to see these 5 videos!

http://www.livevideo.com/video/embedLink/6F393F4DE41C4CF798CBB438E6378129/228144/september-clues-part1.aspx

http://www.livevideo.com/video/2CE2112F00F24F4182C73582D0F89949/september-clues-part2.aspx

http://www.livevideo.com/video/E0E8DC73928D42D4A01CF664B22E16B5/september-clues-part3.aspx

http://www.livevideo.com/video/3F706266A8524D6AA3CCC4CFC2F0F257/september-clues-part4.aspx

http://www.livevideo.com/video/embedLink/0A68FD7C73F8440E9CDCAE38D86C5129/239505/september-clues-part5.aspx

Nice this www.livevideo.com

it have an lot more videos over this thematic (inside) linked.

as:

http://www.livevideo.com/video/rclark23/3FFF3D9F6B4A4E338D9E6966456D48F8/911-mysteries-trailer.aspx

Here are some more interesting videos:

http://www.question911.com/linksall.htm

Hey guys I had found a video a few weeks backthat I can't find anymore, I tracked it down after following a link to loose change 2nd edition from this forum. The video featured a structural analysis of the two towers, it was narrated by one guy who originally set out to disprove the conspiracy. It went into detail about the amount of money that Larry S. got out of it (8.4 bil) the gold, the cut main pillars. It was not painful deceptions, prof jones lecture,loose change 1 or 2, confronting the evidence, in plane sight, question 911, 911 stranger than fiction, the great conspiracy. I need some help tracking this video down, I have been trying to replicate how I got to the video the first time and can't find the blog/forum that had the link. Any help tracking this down would be great. If the videos I named are not familar to you, find them, download them, and show everyone, let them figure out what happened.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4801566025292753615&hl=en-GB

This one?

Given by an engineer who knows exactly what they did.....

and more...
if you see this from great distances :

conspirancy christ islam  zeitgeist wtc

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=928518742089256264  cristenum islam  religion = sklaverei
2:00
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331 ?gypt zeit 3000 vor ch  2:00
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5216975979627863972 indische zeit ?gypt christ jude
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=497251819335380093  !!!!  must see and hear !!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8461754114455236037
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2602704786128880796

and more in the volume of google/videos


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2833924626286859522  Flight 77: The Flight Data Recorder Investigation Files
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1095639883481050461  American 77 Final Maneuver
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1095639883481050461
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1095639883481050461Painful Deceptions-9/11 Pentagon
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1095639883481050461

I really wish people would stop using religion as a tool for population control and an excuse for war...Being into mainstream science and biology I just can't buy it....Life means a whole lot more when you only get one shot at it.....

http://digg.com/politics/Bush_behind_9_11_says_French_politician


From Digg
Bush behind 9/11, says French politician
For some reason this story is hitting the mainstream; e.g:
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL0735514520070707

but there have been plenty of other politicians who have questioned the official conspiracy theory of 9/11:

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/#Chiesa
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/#Cossiga
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/#Ehmke
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/#Fitts
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/#Heikal
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/#Hellyer
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/#Ivashov
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/#Lannoye
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/#McKinney
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/#Meacher
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/#Mubarak
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/#Musharraf
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/#Peck
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/#Ray
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/#Roberts
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/#Ventura
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/#VonBuelow

@2012 great vid but not it, it was a movie type with narration, not a lecture

This is what I've been looking for, a calculation of how long it would take for a tower to hit the ground without any support, just the momentum of the floors.

http://journalof911studies.com/letters/ProfKuttlerWTC1CollapseTimeCalculations.pdf

@ d3adp00l
Maybe you mean 911 Mysteries:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003&q=911+mysteries&total=401&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Check out also the high quality WTC 7 collapse video on this website. If you take a closer look, you can even see the explosions:
http://www.iamthewitness.com/videos.html

The truth is that on 9/11/01 4 planes was hijacked and 3 flew into their intended targets. The only part the government played is to disregard vital information that may have prevented it from happening. Any other wild speculation just takes from the facts and dishonors the innocent that died on that fate filled day. Are you having fun pissing on their would be graves??

What does this have to do with OU anyways?? I personally think it is taking from the good we could do here?

BAH!!

quit joking around...
we know what happened on 9/11

Quote from: nutekk on July 15, 2007, 03:22:31 PM
quit joking around...
we know what happened on 9/11

You "think" you know what happened? Here let me throw another conspiracy in the mix. The pilots union planned and executed it? Maybe it was a mass suicide. all the victims planned it? Bla Bla Blaaa! Only an implosion/explosion could cause the buildings to fall in such a manner. Bullshit! Let me drop 300,000 lbs of concrete and debris on you and see how you collapse? How about this Would you run into a building burning at 3500+ degree's to plant some explosives?

What? all these video's posted and no one can see the planes flying into the buildings? Personally if you cannot understand that all the upper floors was stored energy, energy at rest waiting to be released.  than you don't understand energy in the least.     

@ Ring Theory

I know you understand the physics principles involved in fall times.
Research the building fall times, refrenced against local seismological
data then get back to us on "theories" about explosives being used.

Forget all the other useless conjecture...
Just justify the fall times and precollapse seismological spikes.

Here I'll make your job easy to ensure you at least look before responding.
http://www.911review.com/errors/wtc/seismic.html
http://physics911.net/closerlook
http://www.drjudywood.co.uk/articles/BBE/BilliardBalls.html

WTC7 is my favorite example as it only contained diesel fuel, no jet fuel.
If you reply without adressing fall time you only acknowledge its validity.

~Dingus Mungus

My first post!


The Twin Towers did not "collapse", they were pulverized:

http://forum.911movement.org/index.php?showtopic=57

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi87.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk126%2FCB_Brooklyn%2FPulverize%2520Post%2FHTR-combine.jpg&hash=4afef6236dd7c292a5a0332f2d28816f72a27765)

@CB_Brooklyn
Your right and wrong. Wrong that they did not collapse, and right that they were pulverized.
Hunting for debris in a sea of debris? You yourself said they was pulverized. the so called missing debris was carried with the wind and coated the ground 4-6 inches of it. I looked at the images of your post and can answer all the questions posed.

@dingus

The difference between a vacuum and oxygenated atmosephere are many. Friction and the heat generated from it can count for the .5 difference.
still I see no evidence of explosives bieng used. The floors did NOT pancake the debris following the path of least resistance more than likely blew holes in the floors below puncturing them at there weakest spots probably 4-5 stories preceding the main flow of debris. which followed pulverizing and creating huge amounts of heat generated by the debris. to expect buildings such as tower #1 and #2 to fall symetricly floor by floor is proposterous. It was MEYHEM that nothing could survive in the direct path and the heat that was generated was extreme

well, I guess it depends on the usage of the term "collapse". I agree with you on the lack of evidence for explosives. I believe the explosives "evidence" is propaganda to distract people from the directed energy weapon evidence.

The Director of Public Affairs at the Directed Energy Directorate Air Force Research Laboratory says Dr Judy Wood's WTC directed energy weapon research is "interesting and worthy of further consideration"!!

See the FAX sheet here:
http://drjudywood.com/home/Garcia4.jpg

i find the account of Barry Jennings (deputy director of the nyc housing authority , emergency management division) to raise many questions.

he was inside WTC7 before either of the towers fell and he said bombs were going off inside. "the lobby was destroyed ,it looked like king kong had come through and stepped on it"
he knew what he heard and he heard explosions.
and all this was before the towers had fallen.

There are many, many quetions.

What causes heat? Friction. What does friction do? slow things down alot..

did debris fall 50 stories ahead of the collapse, to pulverise the concret, and blow it out the side there? (see the squibs)

Look at it in terms of probability.
A steel building coming down due to fire. 100:1 probablity. (for the sake of argument)

100:1 for one building.
10000:1 for two buildings ( it's not 200:1 it's 100X100)
1000000:1 for three buildings = Building 7.

It has a pretty good chance of being an inside job!

Alex Jones, actually predicted 9/11 before it happened.
Look on youtube, it's there with a timestamp.
He was telling listeners to call the whitehouse to stop them.

@ btester1
Probability? ok what's the probability of killing two birds with one stone? pretty good if they are lined up sitting on a wire?  Here is what your missing here. what's the probability of two simular events causing a simular result? An inside job? i want what your smoking because you have lost all connection with reality. in case you didn't know terrorists flew planes into the buildings. I predicted that they would return to finish the job after the first bombing attempt. any half wit could forsee that.

@nutekk
There are many things that sound like explosions. impacts sound like explosions. My truck when i slam the hood sounds exactly like a 12 guage shotgun. yet no explosion occured. What did barry jennings really hear?

@ CB_Brooklyn
Please explain to me, IF and that's a big if we had directed energy beam weapons (which would be best suited in a sattellite) be directed to or orbiting above the united states?? I would think that we would be targeting more critical targets around the world. However the technology would require 10,000 times more energy than we (mankind) can produce independent from the grid. otherwards there is NO sattellite that is capable of storing that kind of energy poised for release. Directed energy beam weapons are nothing more than a farytale till our work here in OU.com is done.

Barry was actually in an explosion on the 6th floor. the floor gave out and he was hanging..
when he got down to the lobby it was totally destroyed.
this was all before either tower fell.

He is credible because of his job title..."emergency management"

he knows what he heard..he heard explosions.

http://noonehastodie.blogspot.com/2007/06/barry-jennings-world-trade-center-7.html

@ ring  The proof you are looking for is a picture of the explosives actually in place on the building prior to collapse, the big problem with that is explosives explode, and leave very little evidence behind. Whenever investigations are preformed with the intent of discovering what explosives were used it is the residue that is analyzed, it is also the condition, location, and destruction. So unless you would be willing to look at that information there is no reason to discuss the matter. There are facts of the events that do not add up to the explanation of the planes doing what happened to those building, and building 7, well that completely blows the official story off the map. Most people here seem to be from a technical type background, that includes engineers. From a construction/mechanic type background, and actually understanding how the building went together (in a much more intimate way than seeing some big steel parts on a video), what was left and where it was left, is in and of itself enough proof. Let me ask you this ring, have you ever tried to heat red iron (building steel) to the point of getting to weaken at all? Try it with different sources of heat, its interesting. Oklahoma city, half of a building was violently removed, the building stood, buildings have burned and stood, and if you throw an aluminum can at some expanded steel, the can will lose, and the steel will remain.

"What the underlying military-industrial-financial crime syndicate that controls our government is doing, both domestically and internationally, is so horrifying that it is literally traumatizing to consciously bear witness to it, to experience it."


http://www.awakeninthedream.com/den51state.html

great article.

@ring theory

Your question:
Two similar events causing a similar result. On 9/11 there were three buildings(including building 7)
so I'll give you three chances.

I'm having fun, the probability is:
Let's say for example, each terrorist is going to practice killing two birds with one stone.

First terrorist killing two birds with one stone. (For the sake of argument)
1:3 ( being generous here, you may not kill them but injure them.)

Second terrorist Killing another two birds with another stone.
1:3 X 1:3 = 1:9 chance ( getting harder to do)

Third terrorist killing another two birds with another stone.
1:3 X 1:3  X 1:3 = 1:27  ( is pretty hard for all three terrorists)

26:27 (not being able to do it)
1:27  (chance of killing those birds with three stones)

Conclusion: The terrorists have a high chance of failure of not completing their mission to kill those
       birds. Just like the probability of 9/11. You should be screaming inside job.
                 
                 9/11 was an obvious inside job of some sort or some terrorists won the lottery on the
                 very first try. I think those terrorists bought up all the million tickets.
                 It makes no difference if planes hit the buildings or not. The chances are very poor, all three
                 buildings will come down in the same day. And at freefall speed.

Quote from: d3adp00l on July 16, 2007, 10:42:43 PM
@ ring  The proof you are looking for is a picture of the explosives actually in place on the building prior to collapse, the big problem with that is explosives explode, and leave very little evidence behind. Whenever investigations are preformed with the intent of discovering what explosives were used it is the residue that is analyzed, it is also the condition, location, and destruction. So unless you would be willing to look at that information there is no reason to discuss the matter. There are facts of the events that do not add up to the explanation of the planes doing what happened to those building, and building 7, well that completely blows the official story off the map. Most people here seem to be from a technical type background, that includes engineers. From a construction/mechanic type background, and actually understanding how the building went together (in a much more intimate way than seeing some big steel parts on a video), what was left and where it was left, is in and of itself enough proof. Let me ask you this ring, have you ever tried to heat red iron (building steel) to the point of getting to weaken at all? Try it with different sources of heat, its interesting. Oklahoma city, half of a building was violently removed, the building stood, buildings have burned and stood, and if you throw an aluminum can at some expanded steel, the can will lose, and the steel will remain.

Ok I'm not looking for images of explosives. There was no explosives. the trajectory of flight 175 that hit WTC #2 and the debris that exited the other side impacted with WTC #7! the flaming debris is clearly visible from this angle.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2829438048128905095&q=wtc+before+9%2F11&total=1480&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2 sure there is a chance that none of this debris actually hit #7 but it is more likely that some of it hit it and weakened the structure.

@ring_theory

How can directed energy weapons (DEW) be a fairytale if there's a such thing as a Directed Energy Directorate at an Air Force Research Laboratory in New Mexico?



The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) contracted with Applied Research Associates (ARA) for the 9/11 NIST report.

Not only is ARA a manufacturer of directed-energy weapon technology,
but are also a founding sponsor of Directed Energy Professional Society (DEPS).

DEPS, founded in 1999, put out their first newsletter one year before 9/11.
An excerpt from this newsletter is as follows:

"Lasers in space, lasers in the stratosphere, lasers
on and over the battlefield - we're at the
beginning of an evolutionary new wave of
weaponry."

http://www.deps.org/DEPSpages/graphics/wavefront2.pdf


See here too:

The 9/11 StarWars ExoW CoverUp: Why NASA and NGA was part of the Perp System
(See the main post and the comments)
http://www.911researchers.com/node/403

Directed Energy Weapon Sponsors and Department of Defense Contractors (check out the Boeing "infomercial" videos)
http://drjudywood.com/articles/DEWcon/DEW_Contractors.html

Evidence for Existence of Directed Energy Weapons
http://www.911researchers.com/node/25

@ring_theory:-
please check out these videos:

Beam weapons etc.
http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q=Invisible+Machine%3A+Electromagnetic+Warfare (http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q=Invisible+Machine%3A+Electromagnetic+Warfare)

evidence for explosives
http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q=911+steven+jones+thermite (http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q=911+steven+jones+thermite)

I'm not buying it. It would take a massive amount of energy to direct enough energy to bring down a building in a focal manner. sattellites just don't have what it takes to do it. Emp would have taken out everything electronic in atleast a 5 block radius. I don't find any reports of such an anomoly.

WTC 7 housed DOD, CIA, etc. if it was damaged and posed a threat to national security I myself "if i was president" would call for it's destruction. However i don't think it went down that way. Get over it! Stop trying to read into what happened and accept that it happened as a result of flaming debris that just happened to take out the first 6 floors in the center of the building.

Do the experiment. get a 200 foot  1 inch thick cable lay it around your house, attach one end to the cable making a loop around your house. attach the other end to your neibors monster truck and have him take off down the road. see if your house doesn't fall. 

Ring theory what you propose is simply moronic. You have no grasp of the design tolerance of those or any other building. The fact is you do not know what you are talking about, a couple pieces of flaming debris brought down a 47 story building, that would be the equal as a flaming dog terd brough down a steel stud office building. By the way have you ever heard of fire sprinklers. Have you ever seen the fire sprinkler systems in a highrise class 1 occupation building, how about installed one? Well I have, and the math is simple, fuel+o2+water= not to hot of a fire. But like I said what you would want for proof is a picture of the explosives being carried in and installed, anything short of that and you are going to dismiss it with a weak explanation, that doesn't support the events, to anyone who has an understanding of the building, the plane, the fuel, and the damage, and the other events, remember this was a multifront battle, and there is so much evidence that terrorist have done that in the past. Pull your head out, your brain is running out of oxygen and is not able to think.

Quote from: d3adp00l on July 17, 2007, 12:28:40 PM
Ring theory what you propose is simply moronic. You have no grasp of the design tolerance of those or any other building. The fact is you do not know what you are talking about, a couple pieces of flaming debris brought down a 47 story building, that would be the equal as a flaming dog terd brough down a steel stud office building. By the way have you ever heard of fire sprinklers. Have you ever seen the fire sprinkler systems in a highrise class 1 occupation building, how about installed one? Well I have, and the math is simple, fuel+o2+water= not to hot of a fire. But like I said what you would want for proof is a picture of the explosives being carried in and installed, anything short of that and you are going to dismiss it with a weak explanation, that doesn't support the events, to anyone who has an understanding of the building, the plane, the fuel, and the damage, and the other events, remember this was a multifront battle, and there is so much evidence that terrorist have done that in the past. Pull your head out, your brain is running out of oxygen and is not able to think.

Whatever I am fully aware of all aspects of building fire retardent systems. I have worked in maintainence since i was 14. when i was 18 I was in manufacturing plant maintainence. problem with it is that main control systems are based on the ground floor with sub systems on other floors. besides it only is effective in the case of fire not the impact of say a jet engine shaft spinning at several thousands of rpm's. the moronic example still applies. after you pull your house off of the foundation. run into it and see if the water is still working. oops not working! the pipes was physically disconnected. by the cable. You have no idea just what i know and what systems i am familliar with. stop assuming i don't know!

@ ring
I feel bad that we're all trying to show you something and its turning nasty.
Sorry you're alone on this one, but it's all for the perpose of understanding.

You still seem to think a 747 hitting a skyskraper is a show stopper...
Its a question of momentum and inertia, simply put large footprint towers
are designed to survive those impacts because they are relative to a
punch in the face not a stick of TNT in the ass. Same thing with high rise fires.
High rise buildings are designed to burn to the ground while still maintaining
the central frame. Go buy a 1" grade 8 bolt and cut through it with diesel fuel...

Its just not possible! Unless you were believe the NIST official story,
Which for the record is: "We can't explain what happened in WTC7."

~Dingus Mungus

This is how buildings fall when they do fall

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1X8j53U1So

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p22OkclAU3o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwGE92upfQM

First thing comparing a house to that building isn't possible the two aren't built anything alike. Second the base of the towers were intact. The closest you could come to in comparison with a house is driving a car into it. Which by the way you can drive through a house and it will still stand, I have seen it done. And that comparison tells me enough.

You people can believe whatever you want. As basicly dingus said i am at odds here on this. apparently the masses have spoken. Nothing new to me. I was mearly pointing out the obvious like planes struck WTC 1 and 2. pieces of flight 175 exited WTC 2 and struck WTC 7. had not terrorists flew planes into them we wouldn't be having this discussion. We would be directing our energies to finding and applying OU stuff.

I should have never patronized this post but i just had to. I cannot tolerate the spreading of lies and propaganda when thousands of lifes was lost due to terrorist attacks. It seems everyone would rather believe that something is amiss with the government. when the facts are so obvious. Get a grip on reality and face it terrorists attacked america and not the goverment. even though they are terrorists in their self at times.

@ Ring
Again I'm sorry the odds are so stacked here. It really isn't fair with so many posts dirrected at you.

If its propaganda:
Whos propaganda? for what? Who benifits?

We are all here working on something everyone says is impossible.
They say it violates all of science. Do you see the parallel here?

So how is looking for the truth disrespecting the dead? If that were true are we not insulting all of the greatest scientist who ever lived? Was Einstien insulting Newton? Was newton disrespecting Galileo? If I died that day, I'd be pissed at anyone who believed the official dribble. Seven of the supposed hijackers have been found alive since! If it was one of my family members who died that day I would have thrown a fit when all this counter evidence started showing up. Not because its wrong, but because there is so many people who are still willing to trust the government we all know we can't trust! Too know for sure that even one of their suspects was not guilty is enough to make me disbelieve it all.

If it was a member of your family would you really swallow this rediculous senario?
Or would you want more answers? Answers supported beyond the page of a report?

Would you be at peace with the way things have gone since that day?
The horrid things America has done in the name of those who died.

Would you want people using their name to justify repression of facts?

I know if you seperate yourself from your preconseptions and investigate those attacks with europian or asian news you'd see why we are all so convinced.

Now I don't mean this as an attack on you, but I can assume you get your news from a media corp like FOX, CNN, or AAP. I promise you, all politics aside your sources are only repeating what their told. No investigating, all opinion and rehash.

Dems and Reps are both working against us...
This is not a party thing. Its a patriotic thing.

What makes America a good country???
(I'll answer this rhetorical question)
-Privacy
-Free speech and expresion
-No national religion
-Patition of grievances
-Equal rights
-Constitution and Bill of rights
-Admiration and respect of the world

Those have all gone out the window since 9-11... Our government is steadily doing more damge than the terrorists could have done in ten lifetimes. Can you see what I'm saying here? 3 planes could never inflict that damage. That damage is being done by our own government in the name of security. All the while they blame others any scapegoat they can find.

Ben Franklin once said "The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either"...

~Dingus Mungus

Its just the same attitude that o/u gets. Agree with main stream, and adjust theories to support it.

Quote from: d3adp00l on July 18, 2007, 02:57:38 AM
Its just the same attitude that o/u gets. Agree with main stream, and adjust theories to support it.

< rant >
Pshhhh!
Adjust theories... I wish the main stream paid that much attention.
They won't even look at evidence so theories never enters it.

The only theory or logic they follow is:
"These people disagree with ___ they must be crazy!"

That applies to all "sources"
Religious
Spiritual
Scientific
Celebrity
Journalist
Pundit
Political
You name it...

We logicly lay out: how, why, where, when, and they refuse to even look at it. And lets not forget about the wonderful debunkers who skip over points they can't contend or explain, and retreat to the safety of a NIST report that resluted in the dismissal or resignation of several engineers who have since come out and pointed out holes in the report(s). Logical debate can only work if both parties are willing to look at new points of view. The problem is we are forced to hear theirs, and can rarely get them to even consider ours.

< /rant > LOL!

~Dingus Mungus

I'm sorry to say this, but the U.S government, military, corporations and C.I.A are currently the biggest bunch of terrorists on the planet. They put all other terrorist groups to shame!

Quote from: stevewal2 on July 18, 2007, 04:44:33 AM
I'm sorry to say this, but the U.S government, military, corporations and C.I.A are currently the biggest bunch of terrorists on the planet. They put all other terrorist groups to shame!

I tend to agree with you on this. but i also feel they are not capable of orcestrating this. It was too caotic and radical to have the governments fingerprints on it. If it was the government's handywork we wouldn't know about it until they wanted us to know. 

@ring_theory

I bring up the probability to prove a point.

Ask yourself what is the likelyhood of this occuring.

Look at some historical events such as the Reichstag fire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire
Also Germans never knew anything about what was happening in the concentration camps.
It's truly scary what a government is truly capable when you give it carte blanche.

Now we know it's a probable event that could happen again since it happened in history.
It has happened before and it could happen again (9/11). I'm talking government staged terror events.
Some websites are totally devoted to this.

To prove 9/11 was an inside job is hard to do but it probably was because of probability.
The probability of it being some kind of inside job is very high as shown in previous emails.

I just looked at the fall times. I calculated it myself. It's simple physics.
Woaaah !!! something wrong with that. That's impossible.
My advice is to take out your pen and do the math!

Why worry about what has happened and start worrying about what is about to happen.  Before 911 the government was training for attacks from planes on the trade center and the pentegon.  Either they have a psychic working for them or they knew something about the attacks before they happened.   Either way something smells.

The current administration is in such bad shape right now that the only way to win the support of the American people back is for some catastrophic even to occur so bush can say I told you so.  The american sheeple will be screaming for the administration to attack the terrorists again(They now have a reason for taking out iran for supporting them). 

They are already starting to beat the war drums and are touting that osoma's people are already in the united states and wanting to attack us at home.  Also homeland security has a "gut feeling" that something bad about to happen.  So lets look at what big event the government is training or preparing for now.  The last I heard they are conducting yearly training exercises for a dirty bomb or a nuke going off in the subways of dc.  I think new youk is training for something similar but am not sure.  Also the feds have currently moved their offices out of the range of a possible nuclear bomb going off in dc.

Hopefully it never happens, but if it does this is one possible outcome.  If it does happen you can count on loosing the rest of your freedoms and bush's prolonged term in office. 

Have a nice day :) 

The Director of Public Affairs at the Directed Energy Directorate, Kirtland Air Force Base, New Mexico says Dr Judy Wood's 9/11 directed energy weapon evidence is "interesting and worthy of further consideration".


Read on...


March 16, 2007: Former Clemson University Professor of Mechanical Engineering Dr Judy Wood files a Request for Correction with the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) regarding the 9/11 NIST Report. Dr Wood cites fraud and deception, and shows clear evidence that the World Trade Center was destroyed by directed energy weaponry.

Dr Judy Wood is represented by attorney Jerry Leaphart.

Dr Wood's Request for Correction (RFC) is archived on the US Government's Department of Commerce website in PDF format:

RFC (March 16, 2007):
http://www.ocio.os.doc.gov/ITPolicyandProg...K/PROD01_002667 (http://"http://www.ocio.os.doc.gov/ITPolicyandPrograms/Information_Quality/ssLINK/PROD01_002667")

Supplement#1 (March 29, 2007):
http://www.ocio.os.doc.gov/ITPolicyandProg...K/PROD01_002722 (http://"http://www.ocio.os.doc.gov/ITPolicyandPrograms/Information_Quality/ssLINK/PROD01_002722")

Supplement#2 (April 20, 2007):
http://www.ocio.os.doc.gov/ITPolicyandProg...K/PROD01_002899 (http://"http://www.ocio.os.doc.gov/ITPolicyandPrograms/Information_Quality/ssLINK/PROD01_002899")



April 7, 2007: Dr Wood sends letter to

* The Head of U.S. Air Force Directed Energy Directorate
* The Office of Management and Budget Deputy Director for Management
* The Board of Directors of Directed Energy Professional Society

The main question of this letter: "Are the effects set forth in RFC filed with NIST consistent with the destructive effects that would result from the use of directed energy weapons?"

See here for full letter with additional comments by Jerry Leaphart:
http://drjudywood.com/articles/NIST/DEW_letter.html (http://"http://drjudywood.com/articles/NIST/DEW_letter.html")



April 27, 2007: Wood and Leaphart are contacted and have telephone conversation with

The Director of Public Affairs
Directed Energy Directorate
Air Force Research Laboratory/DEO-PA
Kirtland Air Force Base, New Mexico



May 3 2007: Leaphart sends letter to the Director of Public Affairs:
http://drjudywood.com/pdf/070503_letterGarcia.pdf (http://"http://drjudywood.com/pdf/070503_letterGarcia.pdf")



May 4, 2007: Leaphart receives the following FAX from the Director of Public Affairs at the Directed Energy Directorate, Kirtland Air Force Base (emphasis added):

===================================
MESSAGE: I received your fax yesterday and your FedEx package today, and had a chance to review the materials you sent. During our telephone conversation I outlined a variety of directed energies that might have future weapons applications but I'm not aware of any that are mature enough to cause the damage at the World Trade Center. Lasers are the most likely candidates for nearer-term weapons use and, to that enc, we have conducted laboratory tests to evaluate the effects of laser energy on different materials. For the most part, those materials have been metals, not concrete structures. Effects on metals are from the heat generated by an intense beam of coherent light, which cause the metals to weaken and split. Given sufficient heat, metals would melt (become liquids) and, given significantly more heat, could turn to gases. Since we haven't tested concrete I don't know if the effect would be dust. You report phenomena that we cannot explain here, either because we don't have enough data or because the phenomena are not within our area of expertise. While on a personal level I may find Dr Wood's investigation interesting and worthy of further consideration, on a professional level we are unable to devote our limited resources to activities outside of our charter, I wish you success in your endeavor and am available to answer whatever directed energy questions may arise.
===================================

See here for a scan of the original FAX document:
http://drjudywood.com/articles/NIST/Garcia_letter.html (http://"http://drjudywood.com/articles/NIST/Garcia_letter.html")


Dr Wood's 9/11 directed energy weapon evidence is "interesting and worthy of further consideration"!


--------------------------


June 29, 2007: The Chief of the Management and Organization division at NIST replies to Dr Wood, and states they need more time to respond to her RFC:
http://drjudywood.com/articles/NIST/NIST_letter.html (http://"http://drjudywood.com/articles/NIST/NIST_letter.html")

NIST needs **more time** ??


--------------------------


See Dr Judy Wood's 9/11 directed energy weapon research here:
http://drjudywood.com (http://"http://drjudywood.com")

Quote from: CB_Brooklyn on July 18, 2007, 11:35:09 AM
For the most part, those materials have been metals, not concrete structures.

Hmm.. So they haven't tested it on concrete bunkers?
I say no more  ;D ;D ;D

@Dingus

"If its propaganda:
Whos propaganda? for what? Who benifits?"

Simple answers for simple questions. Al quida/radical terrorists. To cast doubt on the government. Radical terrorists. Why? Promote Anarchy. It's what they do. What they are trained from birth to do. it's all they know and dedicate all their resources to it.   

"We are all here working on something everyone says is impossible.
They say it violates all of science. Do you see the parallel here?"

Oh yeah.

"So how is looking for the truth disrespecting the dead?"

Well it isn't if the truth is actually bieng hidden. But in this case it is quite obvious radical terrorists flew planes into their intended targets. Doh! To redirect blame denies the survivors and loved ones left behind closure.   

"If that were true are we not insulting all of the greatest scientist who ever lived?"

No. their works are verifiable and will be concreted by our victory. 

"Was Einstien insulting Newton?"

No. their works actually complement eachother.

"Was newton disrespecting Galileo?"

No. Galileo was an inventor a mechanical genius, newton was a theoretical genius.

If I died that day i would want those responcible to pay with their lifes, Eye for an Eye. I would expect the american people to stand behind the government and seek justice and destroy the capability of the radical terrorists to do this sort of thing again.

"Seven of the supposed hijackers have been found alive since!"

Now this i need to see. Verify please. I do remember there was a small cell that for some reason or another didn't commit that day or was thwarted.

"If it was a member of your family would you really swallow this rediculous senario?
Or would you want more answers? Answers supported beyond the page of a report?"

I can only pallet the truth, there is no room on my plate for any other scenario's. I would take all the evidence into account and find the truth. but in this case the truth is too obvious as grimm as it is. As with overunity, free-energy, anti-gravety, etc. I would find myself standing toe to toe with the masses. However i wouldn't believe the rhetorics dejected version if it deviated from the facts.

"Would you be at peace with the way things have gone since that day?
The horrid things America has done in the name of those who died."

Yes up till the point where Anarchists win by allowing their act to cast doubt on the government and start a landslide of false accusations and fairytale like scenarios.

"Would you want people using their name to justify repression of facts?"

If the facts were bieng repressed no. However this is not the case with 9/11. 

"I know if you seperate yourself from your preconseptions and investigate those attacks with europian or asian news you'd see why we are all so convinced."

BAH! It happened here in the US, I am a US citizen, I happen to know how the government here works. I have been a victim of it's oppressive behaviors. I have seen the bad and good of it's works. It's just this simple I have one preconception we cannot have our freedoms and liberties within anarchy, there has to be a governing entity. I would agree that watergate would be pale in comparison to this administrations atrocities against human rights and liberties bieng trampled as well as the economy falling apart and national debt etc.   

"Now I don't mean this as an attack on you, but I can assume you get your news from a media corp like FOX, CNN, or AAP. I promise you, all politics aside your sources are only repeating what their told. No investigating, all opinion and rehash."

Ok I'm Internet educated, I follow my own curriculum. to do that one has to define bullshit from fact. Which requires useing several different sources to come to the true and appropreate conclusion. I cannot see how understanding how the world views the 9/11 attacks as part of any investigation of the attacks. I rarely believe the media as it is why would I believe foriegn media??

"Dems and Reps are both working against us...
This is not a party thing. Its a patriotic thing."

It's sad you see it that way. I allways defined patriot as one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests.   

"What makes America a good country???
(I'll answer this rhetorical question)
-Privacy
-Free speech and expresion
-No national religion
-Patition of grievances
-Equal rights
-Constitution and Bill of rights
-Admiration and respect of the world"

If radical terrorists get their way anarchy will prevail and we will not have what we defend so proudly.

"Those have all gone out the window since 9-11... Our government is steadily doing more damge than the terrorists could have done in ten lifetimes. Can you see what I'm saying here?"

You cannot see that this is what the radical terrorists want?? Our government was undermined by bush in 2000. starting with his brothers cooperation with election results. which cast doubt on our goverment in opinion here and abroad. 9/11 was just a tragic event that added to the doubt.

"3 planes could never inflict that damage. That damage is being done by our own government in the name of security. All the while they blame others any scapegoat they can find."

I tend to dissagree. It is the masses looking for a scapegoat.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Ben Franklin

"Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. It is a force, like fire: a dangerous servant and a terrible master". George Washington

"Human rights can only be assured among a virtuous people. The general government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, an oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any despotic or oppressive form so long as there is any virtue in the body of the people." -George Washington

"Only a life lived for others is worth living." - Albert Einstein

And finally these two by ben franklin

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

"This will be the best security for maintaining our liberties.  A nation of well-informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved.  It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins."






 

Here are some interesting bits of information.

http://wtc.nist.gov/

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

I am sure this will all be rejected since it does not support the popular opinion here.

Quote from: Topguner2 on July 18, 2007, 01:52:49 PM
Here are some interesting bits of information.

http://wtc.nist.gov/

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

I am sure this will all be rejected since it does not support the popular opinion here.

There you have it. Great work Topguner2!  8)

The link you requested:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hijackers.html

If you research it more you'll find several newspapers even conducted interviews with the men.
So obviously the list of hijackers is either forged or inaccurate...
WOULD YOU AGREE?

Proven 911 commision/NIST missinformation:
*** http://www.911blogger.com/node/6104 ***
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/12/why-was-there-molten-metal-under.html
http://www.911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/metallurgy/index.html
http://www.ae911truth.org/

I love the part where Mr. Gross publicly anounced "The video evidence was pretty clear, the building is not stopped by the floors below, so there is no calculation we did..." So basically he said molten steel would be a sign of explosives, but there was none, and then he said they never crunched numbers on the fall times! Gotta love "cover your ass" accidental honnesty... The longer we question the official story the more they fess up to.

~Dingus Mungus

I've decided all my prior arguements aren't going to "show you" anything new.
So heres 2 examples of the official story falling short of reality.
I'll allow time for you to defend these points if you choose then
I hope to answer more of your challenges to the truth movements case.

well considering that the current hypothesis for wtc7 says that the collapse was disproportionate, is not how the building actually fell. In fact it fell very uniformly and started in the center (roof equipment parapit walls droped first). If they came up with a theory that described what actually happened then I would give them some fighting credibility, however everything they come up with just destroys what little credibility they have, which is now in the negatives.

a bit off topic but...
here is a site that my wife and i run(she does most of the work  :P )

http://www.noonehastodietomorrow.us

we cover many topics some 911 stuff.

we are patriots!

Quote from: Thedane on July 18, 2007, 12:05:02 PM

Quote from: CB_Brooklyn on July 18, 2007, 11:35:09 AM
For the most part, those materials have been metals, not concrete structures.

Hmm.. So they haven't tested it on concrete bunkers?
I say no more  ;D ;D ;D

Is that supposed to be an intelligent response? No one is saying that the specific weapons that guy tested were used on 9/11.

Quote from: nutekk on July 18, 2007, 09:27:54 PM
a bit off topic but...
here is a site that my wife and i run(she does most of the work  :P )

http://www.noonehastodietomorrow.us

we cover many topics some 911 stuff.

we are patriots!

Great site! It's in my favorites now. I'll be looking for updates.

cool dingus mungus...

yea we have taken a break...working on a special project for
the whole movement. The site will get back to being updated more regularly.

Quote from: nutekk on July 18, 2007, 09:27:54 PM
a bit off topic but...
here is a site that my wife and i run(she does most of the work  :P )

http://www.noonehastodietomorrow.us

we cover many topics some 911 stuff.

we are patriots!

Here is some more material for your site. (off topic)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070719/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cia_leak_lawsuit

Quote from: Topguner2 on July 19, 2007, 03:48:48 PM
Here is some more material for your site. (off topic)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070719/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cia_leak_lawsuit

How convinient for the administration... Considering it was treason to leak that info.
The president "commutes" all criminal charges and a judge throws out the civil case.
Cheney was the person to declasify the documents exposing Plame. Off scott free.
If only Nixon was this good at breaking the law... He would be our dictator by now.

Coverage - msnbc/cbs
msnbc - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ft0xqyilpo
cbs - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqTEUDEUT-I

I just really like this one... Especially the last quote in the video!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7xyd_IRgGs

~Dingus Mungus

@ring_theory

If a lumberjack hits a tree, does he turn the tree into dust.

Just mathematical probability, proves this is official story.

Million to one, false!

Quote from: btester1 on July 21, 2007, 12:00:22 AM
@ring_theory

If a lumberjack hits a tree, does he turn the tree into dust.

Just mathematical probability, proves this is official story.

Million to one, false!

Well it depends on what he hits the tree with. lets say if he hits it with a fully fueled jetliner? 
Oh yeah i remember mathematical probability! Isn't that what predicted that nothing that occures during launch will effect re-entry? Like some foam knocking enough heat tiles off of shuttle columbia to make it disintigrate over texas upon re-entry?? tell 7 souls and their loved ones that mathematical probabilities ended their lifes.

What's the probability of a mathematical probability causing 7 lifes to be lost??

Quote from: ring_theory on July 21, 2007, 01:25:42 AM
Well it depends on what he hits the tree with. lets say if he hits it with a fully fueled jetliner?

LMAO! There is no way thats possible!
A plane couldn't turn a red wood to dust no matter how fast you hit it. LOL!

Quote from: ring_theory on July 21, 2007, 01:25:42 AM
Oh yeah i remember mathematical probability! Isn't that what predicted that nothing that occures during launch will effect re-entry? Like some foam knocking enough heat tiles off of shuttle columbia to make it disintigrate over texas upon re-entry?? tell 7 souls and their loved ones that mathematical probabilities ended their lifes.

What's the probability of a mathematical probability causing 7 lifes to be lost??

Sucessfull launches/failures= probability of failure

Well thats not exactly accurate but its LIKE a statistician answer.
AKA determine the probability.

~Dingus Mungus

Wow, so ring using that kinda logic, if an orange has a thick skin and very soft inside and small seeds, does that mean all fruit has those exact same characterists, better yet does that mean all spherical orange objects do?Heres a pool ball for you to chew on.

Ring I can accept that you disagree, get a functional theory, that describes what is seen on the videos, isn't magic, explains why a steel built fell because of a small fire(never happened before), explains the pentagon(lack of a plane), and 93 (lack of plane), and I won't jeer what you say. But coming up with what you are is not explaining what happened, by the way look at plane crash photos, tree don't vaporize from a plane impact normally they stand there (specially if more than 18" in dia) and catch fire for a minute. A redwood tree would drop a plane and not even care.

When it comes to 9/11 to much emphasis is placed on the twin towers building collapse. Lets look at some of the other facts that occurred leading up to the attacks -

In the previous 12 months before the attack NORAD had intercepted something like 60 aircraft within 10 minutes after they strayed off course. But on the morning of 9/11 the hijacked planes were able to fly around for over an hour without anybody noticing.

There is a procedure/code that all pilots know to do in the case of a hijacking so the air traffic can be alerted. But 4 planes were successfully hijacked without this signal being given off. You can understand this being the case with a cockpit rush, but in 2 of the cases the cockpits were locked and they supposedly threatened to kill the stewardesses over the intercom. Plenty of time to get the signal off before they opened the cockpit.

FBI agents warned their superiors on dozens of occasions that the hijackers they had under surveillance were trying to fly planes without landing them and this information was ignored.

After the first plane hit, they came and told Bush as he was reading the kids book as we all have seen. But then they just let him sit there for another half hour while the 2nd plane hit and still did not move him.
And you think they would let the President just sit in the same place, in a location that would be wide public knowledge? Any real terrorist worth their salt would have had a hijacked plane flying right into the middle of that school.

If you know anything about diplomatic security, Bush should have been whisked away to a safe place the moment after the first attack. This in fact happened to many congressmen and senators but not President Bush. This is probably the most damning evidence that the Bush handlers had foreknowledge of the attacks.

And then there is the fact that on the morning of 9/11 the Military was running a training drill simulating hijacked aircraft. This is a convenient excuse that they use to cover a lot up with.
Guess what? Did you know on the morning of the London subway bombings the intelligence services were also running exercises simulating bombs going off in the subways.
What are the odds of that?


There is about a dozen more such facts that I do not have time to list. Taken individually you could say its certainly possible for either of them to occur. But all on the same morning ? Either those hijackers are the luckiest men in the world or they had help from black op intelligence services.

All the doors were opened for them on that morning.

Some Evidence for Weapons using Energy that is Directed on 9/11




Round cylindrical holes in WTC 5 and WTC 6:

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi87.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk126%2FCB_Brooklyn%2FDEW%2520Evidence%2FImage140Resized.jpg&hash=9f7607ba2d553fa6eacdb98db07262ef6904b1c7)


Clean vertical cut on north wing of WTC 4, where all material on other side of cut is missing:

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi87.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk126%2FCB_Brooklyn%2FDEW%2520Evidence%2FImage194Resized.jpg&hash=53ef98c80815c117050624c554144c980932baa6)


WTC 4 cut in direct path of South Tower's north wall:

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi87.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk126%2FCB_Brooklyn%2FDEW%2520Evidence%2FImage271Resized.gif&hash=6ec035a605eadd2b324d4505789e326ddedbd6e2)


Cars with missing engine blocks and unexploded gas tanks:

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi87.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk126%2FCB_Brooklyn%2FDEW%2520Evidence%2FZoominGJS-WTC105_toasted.jpg&hash=4732ce9f4dedfd706dc7c535266a11fae7c862a0)


Front of police car toasted while rear in pristine condition. Plastic red light on top survived:

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs18.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb108%2Fjanedoe444%2FARG%2FImage172.jpg&hash=c85ad984c722473b5709fda12e78f7c361208fa5)


Front of fire truck wilted. Where did its engine go?

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs18.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb108%2Fjanedoe444%2FARG%2FImage165.jpg&hash=4001765d4d98b3ed8d1511bccb37fb072565907d)


Tower's steel core turned to dust: [Video 1] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVRh4U2BlhQ), [Video 2] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaysznxCBzA), [Video 3] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptrMZ8qcww4)

wow very compelling stuff about the energy weapon possibility.
ehh screw it, it was 19 al-ciada with box cutters   ::)

really the problem is many have fallen prey to the social engineering.
trauma based mind control.

and there is no quick way out of it...

break the conditioning, its our only hope.

I am not to sure on the beam weapon angle, not saying no to it, but I have not seen evidence that would bring it as the highest possibility. First thing would be to prove that weapons with that kind of output exist. Having worked with some lasers, that amount of power required is staggering, and even rubyrod types aren't that powerful. As far as the pics of building 4, it doesn't show me a beam weapon but what it does show me it HOW MUCH DAMAGE A BUILDING CAN TAKE AND STILL STAND!!! Look at that thing 3/4 of it was smashed flat by the exterior steel of the tower, but it stands, and building 7, couple of small fire supposedly weakened a couple of trusses (which by the way do not hold the building up) and the whole thing comes down. GIVE ME A FREAKING BREAK. Anyone who can give any credibility to the offical theory has had their brain removed.

Quote from: d3adp00l on July 21, 2007, 09:47:29 AM
Wow, so ring using that kinda logic, if an orange has a thick skin and very soft inside and small seeds, does that mean all fruit has those exact same characterists, better yet does that mean all spherical orange objects do?Heres a pool ball for you to chew on.

Ring I can accept that you disagree, get a functional theory, that describes what is seen on the videos, isn't magic, explains why a steel built fell because of a small fire(never happened before), explains the pentagon(lack of a plane), and 93 (lack of plane), and I won't jeer what you say. But coming up with what you are is not explaining what happened, by the way look at plane crash photos, tree don't vaporize from a plane impact normally they stand there (specially if more than 18" in dia) and catch fire for a minute. A redwood tree would drop a plane and not even care.

Well if that kind of logic is wrong than the same kind of logic must also be wrong. for instance that if a building is imploded it only falls a certain way. same goes for if a building collapses without using implosion it is only going to fall a certain way? It's the old saying that keeps coming to mind here on this. "What goes up must come down." That is so true in the case of buildings. the total energy that it took to raise a building is expended in the instant it collapses.   

Small fire?? Ok i would buy all this if only a "small fire" (if there is such a thing) was the only contributing factor to WTC #7's collapse. However there was the issue of flaming bits of flight 175 and the debris from tower 1's collapse that contributed to #7's collapse.

I'm done here people! Nothing i say or do is going to convince you to stop throwing blame where it doesn't belong. SHAME ON YOU! The masses are ignorant and they will remain that way untill they break the chain of disinformation.   

Your right the disinformation should stop. The bits of debris amount to about two flaming trucks, still not enough. Yes and no to the potential energy of the collapse, ALL of the parts of the build were raised to a potential energy state. But the amount of energy raised is not going to be equal to the energy when it was brought down. The energy raised did not include any frictional losses because it went from the ground to its elevated state. However in order to come back down the potential energy must be subtracted from the frictional losses of breaking the welded and bolted joints and any other mechanical attachment means, it also needs to be subtracted from the energy expended to turn the concrete to dust, and to crush the objects inside the building, and the energy transfered by the rigid structure to the ground, and the amount of sound produced, and the heat, and the vacuum of the air filling the space that the building took up, and the energy to push the air inside the building out, etc. So does the amount of energy put up equal the amount of energy that hit the ground, only if you deduct the energy loss in the equation also. And the fact is the math does not add up which means more energy had to be added into the equation by an outside source, If there wasn't then the collapse of those buildings is in itself O/U and needs to be listed under gravity powered devices!

Quote from: CB_Brooklyn on July 21, 2007, 11:54:53 AM
Some Evidence for Weapons using Energy that is Directed on 9/11




Round cylindrical holes in WTC 5 and WTC 6:

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi87.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk126%2FCB_Brooklyn%2FDEW%2520Evidence%2FImage140Resized.jpg&hash=9f7607ba2d553fa6eacdb98db07262ef6904b1c7)


Clean vertical cut on north wing of WTC 4, where all material on other side of cut is missing:

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi87.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk126%2FCB_Brooklyn%2FDEW%2520Evidence%2FImage194Resized.jpg&hash=53ef98c80815c117050624c554144c980932baa6)


WTC 4 cut in direct path of South Tower's north wall:

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi87.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk126%2FCB_Brooklyn%2FDEW%2520Evidence%2FImage271Resized.gif&hash=6ec035a605eadd2b324d4505789e326ddedbd6e2)


Cars with missing engine blocks and unexploded gas tanks:

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi87.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk126%2FCB_Brooklyn%2FDEW%2520Evidence%2FZoominGJS-WTC105_toasted.jpg&hash=4732ce9f4dedfd706dc7c535266a11fae7c862a0)


Front of police car toasted while rear in pristine condition. Plastic red light on top survived:

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs18.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb108%2Fjanedoe444%2FARG%2FImage172.jpg&hash=c85ad984c722473b5709fda12e78f7c361208fa5)


Front of fire truck wilted. Where did its engine go?

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs18.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb108%2Fjanedoe444%2FARG%2FImage165.jpg&hash=4001765d4d98b3ed8d1511bccb37fb072565907d)


Tower's steel core turned to dust: [Video 1] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVRh4U2BlhQ), [Video 2] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaysznxCBzA), [Video 3] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptrMZ8qcww4)

#1 The bombbardment of flaming debris nothing more.
#2 it's not missing it's laying on the ground. Where's the rest of the image?
#3 no comment.
#4 Some cars have engines in the rear of the car, plastic gas tanks designed to not explode but just rupture, plastic hoods and body panels etc.
#5 devider prevented fire from spreading to rear seat area till it was extinguished.
#6 I believe the motor is farther back. the cabs are made of aluminium and or fiberglass.
Spire it's weight couldn't be supported and it fell as well but dust oh no.

next problem?

When working  for the government the scientist I new put together a resonant energy beam, using 100 watt of power. It cut though a 1 foot square block of iron in 5 seconds. Very narrow beam atoms wide.
Hes 2 supervisors walked out  of the room and discussed it in the hallway.
He new it could be used as a weapon so he took it apart.
He said that the devises can be tuned to different materials.

Don't know if this is true?

I believe that these devises  exist.

#1 The bombbardment of flaming debris nothing more.
#2 it's not missing it's laying on the ground. Where's the rest of the image?
#3 no comment.
#4 Some cars have engines in the rear of the car, plastic gas tanks designed to not explode but just rupture, plastic hoods and body panels etc.
#5 devider prevented fire from spreading to rear seat area till it was extinguished.
#6 I believe the motor is farther back. the cabs are made of aluminium and or fiberglass.
Spire it's weight couldn't be supported and it fell as well but dust oh no.

next problem?

[/quote]
#1 the exterior iron wall lattice at high velocity created from explosions
#2 Same and yes on ground, but 1/4 still standing, shouldn't it have fallen ring, i mean its structural integrity has been compromised and all..
#3 same
#4 lets see you name a car with a plastic hood, 90% of all cars have engine in front, exceptions, mr2,bug,fiero,corvair,fiat,acura nsx,lamborgini,ferrari,
#5 divider glass was shattred, heat goes up flame would have spread, but yes it was proly put out
#6 cabs are made from sheet steel, some al/ not much fiberglass, they are called "cab-overs" for a reason the cab is over the engine, it tilts forward to allow access to the engine for work, which is why the cab has to be fairly rigid. But given the force of whatever hit it the engine could be buried in the asphault or removed by work crews. when was the pic taken? Looking at the concrete truck on the left and the diesel electric generator on the left and the construction worker sitting on his bum, would indicate that this pic was taken during cleanup, which means the missing parts where cleared away to allow for construction traffic.

Quote from: d3adp00l on July 21, 2007, 07:50:32 PM
#1 The bombbardment of flaming debris nothing more.
#2 it's not missing it's laying on the ground. Where's the rest of the image?
#3 no comment.
#4 Some cars have engines in the rear of the car, plastic gas tanks designed to not explode but just rupture, plastic hoods and body panels etc.
#5 devider prevented fire from spreading to rear seat area till it was extinguished.
#6 I believe the motor is farther back. the cabs are made of aluminium and or fiberglass.
Spire it's weight couldn't be supported and it fell as well but dust oh no.

next problem?

#1 the exterior iron wall lattice at high velocity created from explosions
#2 Same and yes on ground, but 1/4 still standing, shouldn't it have fallen ring, i mean its structural integrity has been compromised and all..
#3 same
#4 lets see you name a car with a plastic hood, 90% of all cars have engine in front, exceptions, mr2,bug,fiero,corvair,fiat,acura nsx,lamborgini,ferrari,
#5 divider glass was shattred, heat goes up flame would have spread, but yes it was proly put out
#6 cabs are made from sheet steel, some al/ not much fiberglass, they are called "cab-overs" for a reason the cab is over the engine, it tilts forward to allow access to the engine for work, which is why the cab has to be fairly rigid. But given the force of whatever hit it the engine could be buried in the asphault or removed by work crews. when was the pic taken? Looking at the concrete truck on the left and the diesel electric generator on the left and the construction worker sitting on his bum, would indicate that this pic was taken during cleanup, which means the missing parts where cleared away to allow for construction traffic.
[/quote]

Now your getting silly. Yeah explosions as a reult of flying a jet into a building next doors. Doh! no it shouldn't have. Hmmm let me see, a car with a plastic hood? fiero  ::)  Gm didn't stop there caddillac, olds, Firenza i think, not all models have them but some do. I suggest a trip to your local fire department it's called a "cab forward" and it's been in production for decades now. most firetrucks are of this design. So as i said the engine is farther back. Sheet steel maybe early 70's and before. mostly aluminium and fiberglass now days.  ;)

Heres what I think besides this not being anything about energy(sort of),

The reason why they fell was because of the planes carrying full fuel, thats what they say. However, i've heard many scientist talk about the melting point of most of the steel and metal in the towers being able to withstand the fuel of the planes. Now, what i'm confused about is if it was a full tank and fueled relatively a short time ago, there would be a very small amount of fuel vapor, and thats what creates the explosion and heat. Most fuel does not ignite without it's vapors. Why was there such a large explosion with a relatively small amount of fuel vapors?

Thats why you always hear when watching a movie, things don't just explode on impact. It takes much time for something to just explode after the impact.

ring open your eyes and look at the cab, not al, then look at the truck itself, not a new ladder truck, then look at far back the damage goes, into then bed section. motors don't go under the bed section. On top of that where are the wheels, and frame rails. So even if you want to call a cab over(btw I have been around alot of fire trucks in the recent weeks) a cab forward the motor would still be exposed. But like I said it was proly removed with whatever smashed it, just after they emptied the side bins of all equipment. Ya those are fieros down there, and any other just an alluding to them. :P And being silly, ya something that has never happened in history of construction, happened three times in one day (failure due to fire), and a plane just evaporated at the pentagon I would rather be silly than deluded. You have fun with that. ;)

Quote from: d3adp00l on July 22, 2007, 12:43:57 AM
ring open your eyes and look at the cab, not al, then look at the truck itself, not a new ladder truck, then look at far back the damage goes, into then bed section. motors don't go under the bed section. On top of that where are the wheels, and frame rails. So even if you want to call a cab over(btw I have been around alot of fire trucks in the recent weeks) a cab forward the motor would still be exposed. But like I said it was proly removed with whatever smashed it, just after they emptied the side bins of all equipment. Ya those are fieros down there, and any other just an alluding to them. :P And being silly, ya something that has never happened in history of construction, happened three times in one day (failure due to fire), and a plane just evaporated at the pentagon I would rather be silly than deluded. You have fun with that. ;)

Bah!

Just noticing you skipped over this...
No hurry I'll bring it up again.

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on July 18, 2007, 08:19:41 PM
The link you requested:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hijackers.html

If you research it more you'll find several newspapers even conducted interviews with the men. So obviously the list of hijackers is either forged or inaccurate...
WOULD YOU AGREE?

Proven 911 commision/NIST missinformation:
*** http://www.911blogger.com/node/6104 ***
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/12/why-was-there-molten-metal-under.html
http://www.911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/metallurgy/index.html
http://www.ae911truth.org/

I love the part where Mr. Gross publicly anounced "The video evidence was pretty clear, the building is not stopped by the floors below, so there is no calculation we did..." So basically he said molten steel would be a sign of explosives, but there was none, and then he said they never crunched numbers on the fall times! Gotta love "cover your ass" accidental honnesty... The longer we question the official story the more they fess up to.

~Dingus Mungus

I've decided all my prior arguements aren't going to "show you" anything new.
So heres 2 examples of the official story falling short of reality.
I'll allow time for you to defend these points if you choose then
I hope to answer more of your challenges to the truth movements case.

Inaccurate, yes i agree. But still how does that change the fact that terrorists flew planes into WTC #1 #2 and as a result WTC #7 also collapsed. #3 #4 and #5 had to be demolished or was demolished as a result of the former 1 and 2 's debris when they collapsed. Yeah what about #3 howcome no conspiracy about #3 #4 #5.

Molten steel would NOT be evidence that an explosive was used! Molten steel would indicate a fire of over 2750?F. Usually done with a blast furnace However the displacement of air during a collapse of a building that was burning in effected area's may act like a cutting torch for a brief period of time. There is evidence that #7 twisted as it fell this added to the uniform appearance of it's collapse.

No! I will NOT "roll" with the masses on this! It would be wise if you didn't either. I see a few great innovative minds wasting their energies and talents on this. Why I have no idea.

We could be channeling these energies to better understanding Unity and Overunity.   Do I have to Animate (Via mechanical means) myself?  ::)

Come now Ring theory,

Really think about it... Why? Why would we spend all this time and effort? Is it because we hate America? I'm a Libertarian who can recite most of the constitution. Do we spend all this time on it because we were tricked? You know these people, we're indepent thinkers who are extreamly analytical. I agree its sad we have to spend so much time on this, but you must realize we are scared. We must do this. If we don't the United States will continue to fall further in to police state tyranny, oligarchy, and the endless dismantlement of our constitution. There are people who want to hurt you and me, all of us, they want to take all they can from us. Money, rights, land, opinion, thought, our souls in short. I can't make you believe me, but I can only answer your questions honnestly.

I'm sure you'll attack this post, but no matter how much evidence, direct quotes and signed memos I showed you, you would not want to believe it. I assure you, you don't even want to know what I'm talking about.

~Dingus Mungus

P.S. I know I said I could animate your mechanical concept, but the chain accurately gripping a wheel is hard to animate in flash. I gave up on it. Sorry I didn't get back to you about it. I did have a new idea to bounce off you about the concept though. Coil in the middle of 2 wheels so wheel mags allign at the core of inductor.

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on July 22, 2007, 09:52:31 AM
Come now Ring theory,

Really think about it... Why? Why would we spend all this time and effort? Is it because we hate America? I'm a Libertarian who can recite most of the constitution. Do we spend all this time on it because we were tricked? You know these people, we're indepent thinkers who are extreamly analytical. I agree its sad we have to spend so much time on this, but you must realize we are scared. We must do this. If we don't the United States will continue to fall further in to police state tyranny, oligarchy, and the endless dismantlement of our constitution. There are people who want to hurt you and me, all of us, they want to take all they can from us. Money, rights, land, opinion, thought, our souls in short. I can't make you believe me, but I can only answer your questions honnestly.

I'm sure you'll attack this post, but no matter how much evidence, direct quotes and signed memos I showed you, you would not want to believe it. I assure you, you don't even want to know what I'm talking about.

~Dingus Mungus

P.S. I know I said I could animate your mechanical concept, but the chain accurately gripping a wheel is hard to animate in flash. I gave up on it. Sorry I didn't get back to you about it. I did have a new idea to bounce off you about the concept though. Coil in the middle of 2 wheels so wheel mags allign at the core of inductor.

I too at one point early on after 9/11 thought it was orchistrated by the bush administration. Part of me wanted to believe that they were capable of doing it. another part of me which i found to be fueling the former was that i was in denial of the fact that we were attacked by terrorists on our own soil. this made me angry that the government was incapable of protecting me and the rest of america. It's not that i don't review what you and others present as arguement, I review it all. I feel the reason is that (that part of me) thinks the bush administration was and is still capable of such a hanous act, just has to know. However the end result is allways That we were attacked by terrorists.

You seem to have compartmentalized parts of your mind. You are even aware that there is somekind of loopback feeding another part also. This is not a good thing. It is also a quite common symptom of trauma based mind control. My brother in law talks the same way about 9/11.
Beware the TV. Kick it out of your home. Mind control is real.
Mass consciousness tends to protect itself.
Break the conditioning.

Did you know the government has admitted that the uni-bomber was a MK-ULTRA subject?

its funny that a main element used in mind control is electro-magnetics! (ties in nicely with common topics)

Our brains are heavily effected by frequency. It is no fluke the frequency a television flickers.

good site...
http://www.earthpulse.com/


at last count there are: 100+ Senior Military, Law Enforcement and Government Officials, 160+ Architects and Engineers, 140+ Professors, 110+ Survivors and Family Members, 80+ Entertainment and Media Professionals, who have gone on the record questioning 9/11 or believing that 9/11 was an inside job.

Quote from: nutekk on July 22, 2007, 01:40:44 PM
You seem to have compartmentalized parts of your mind. You are even aware that there is somekind of loopback feeding another part also. This is not a good thing. It is also a quite common symptom of trauma based mind control. My brother in law talks the same way about 9/11.
Beware the TV. Kick it out of your home. Mind control is real.
Mass consciousness tends to protect itself.
Break the conditioning.

Did you know the government has admitted that the uni-bomber was a MK-ULTRA subject?

its funny that the main element used in mind control is electro-magnetics! (ties in nicely with common topics)

Our brains our heavily effected by frequency. It is no fluke the frequency a television flickers.

good site...
http://www.earthpulse.com/


at last count there are: 100+ Senior Military, Law Enforcement and Government Officials, 160+ Architects and Engineers, 140+ Professors, 110+ Survivors and Family Members, 80+ Entertainment and Media Professionals, who have gone on the record questioning 9/11 or believing that 9/11 was an inside job.

Please clarify "trauma based mind control" Dr. ::) Anyone would be hard pressed to control my mind. lol! Call it however you see it. Mass consciousness? Now there is definitely something wrong with seeing these two words together "Mass consciousness". Wisdom is a collective of determinations as a result of life experiances. Now I have determined that the "masses are ignorant".  So the consciousness of the masses would be ignorance?

That doesn't say much for the "at last count there are: 100+ Senior Military, Law Enforcement and Government Officials, 160+ Architects and Engineers, 140+ Professors, 110+ Survivors and Family Members, 80+ Entertainment and Media Professionals, who have gone on the record questioning 9/11 or believing that 9/11 was an inside job." as they are tearing at the freedoms that the victims themselfs enjoyed and fought to maintain. Does anyone remember the american way and the persuit of happyness? Shame on you for casting doubt on the government in a time when the government needs all the support it can get when it comes to protecting and preventing this from ever happening again. >:( There is two ways of doing that. one is the government can go militant and cast doubt on the people. or it can persue radical terrorists by taking the fight to them at the source. However if we do nothing there will be many 9/11's to contend with! The end result will make the world a better place overall.

"The American, by nature, is optimistic. He is experimental, an inventor and a builder who builds best when called upon to build greatly."

"And so my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."

"If we cannot end now our differences, at least we can help make the world safe for diversity." ---John Fitzgerald Kennedy  (1961?1963)
:o

Ok Ring, I know his words are a little tin foil hat-ish if you will, but his main point stands. Look at the way people dress, behave, and interact with each other and how it relates to mass media and conditioning. It should be said that I stopped owning a television about 4 years ago. I have no idea what most people are talking about at work, because their lives so closely mirror the television.

You said we are "tearing at the freedoms that the victims themselfs enjoyed and fought to maintain"... WTF? How are we taking away freedoms? Are you not paying attention while typing or are you saying the government is taking them away to control us?

Then you claim the governments courses of action are as follows: "There is two ways of doing that. one is the government can go militant and cast doubt on the people. or it can persue radical terrorists by taking the fight to them at the source."

They have cast doubt on US citizens, patriot act I and II, there are dozens of examples of this. They are following both of your plans thuroughly. As for fighting them "there" so we don't have to fight them here. Thats totally double think, They only want to fight us here because we are there. Do you not see this. Do you believe the Iraqi people respect us for bombing their country for the last 15 years?

We are breeding new terrorists everday we occupy a muslim country. After all if China had bases in Ohio and Kansas while occupying the white house, I too would raise my arms against the threat. Put the shoe on the other foot. Look at things from other angles. I assure you I don't waste time on useless things. This is important for all Americans to see and understand.

~Dingus Mungus

Because everyone seems to be talking about the government and stuff, I thought I would add something.

Very few people realize what our true government structure is, and what it was ment to be. The biggest brain wash in history was when they covered up most modern historical talks about our government. It was replaced with "Democracy". Few understand the true definition of Democracy. Before the 1900's Democracy ment Majority rule completely through the people, and it's economic system. Now it means something more like a religion, "Freedom", "Voting", "United States". Might I add that it really means TOTAL AND COMPLETE BULL. They changed the definition. Our intended government was supposed to be called a Constitutional Republic. Republic doesn't have a meaning anymore, but it really does have one. Rule by Law in a Public Matter. Some try to cover it up and call it a "Representative Democracy". TOTAL AND COMPLETE BULL. A representative democracy is just good way to say Democratic Oligarchy, and there hasn't been one of those ever in the history of man, because they always fail. Democracy always fails, and eduacated people would agree because not a single one has braught stability.

We changed from our Constitutional Republic to an Inverted Socialist Federal Republic. Whoever says that our government hasn't changed is ignorant, and has been manipulated. We are not the longest living government, we changed big time. Thats why I have no more respect for most of the United States government, I only have respect for a few officials and our Constitution. 

HopeForHumanity you are 100% correct!

here is an amazing movie: Riddles in stone
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4854686992345665111&q=RIDDLES+IN+STONE&total=41&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

well worth the watch. It is also fitting for my current post count   ;)

Quote from: ring_theory on July 22, 2007, 11:41:32 AM
However the end result is allways That we were attacked by terrorists.

The terrorists managed to pull off the attacks because of help from a segment within the US government / intelligence services. Are you willing to consider this?

I'm also in complete agreeance woth Hope... And nutekk has got something there, but you have to take that kind of conjecture with a grain of salt. While it is well researched and does contain a lot of unaswered questions it doesn't allow you to assume the answers. As most of those symbols are drawn by children. Think about it... Corn is a national heritage, bearded men (god, santa, honnest abe), stars (twinkle twinkle). Its all far to common to assume anything that elaborate. Some of this stuff is put out there as a distraction.... Entertainment in the most documentry form. Loose change is the same.

But back to Hope for Humanity,

Once people understand that the industrial revolution and great depression were the turning point and do some research about there governments roots, they realize why it changed and who changed it. After you come to grips with that, then you read about false flag terrorism through out history and you realize what the driving force is. Its too scary for some people to deal with, but on a grand scale America is being torn apart and sold to the highest bidder. Double speak and double think runs rampant and debt and fear are the chains that keep us under control.

People need to only look arround and have an open mind and they'll start noticing FACTS, about our past, about our leaders, and about ourselfs, and when they look at the patterns and trends they'll see where we are headed and why we are headed there.

This has gone way off topic and probably doesn't help our cause, but bottom line is the nearly 50% of the accused terrorist were not guilty or died long before 9-11. No new Bin Laden tapes have come out, and the ones that have were debunked as either impersonators or recycled tape. What if the reason no one talks about Osama is because hes only a figment of our imaginations now. He was rushed to a hospital in Dubai where he was met by the CIA in July 2001. I'm not sure he ever left.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,584444,00.html

Mind you thats only theory, but according to many sources Osama would undoubtably be dead by now if he was ever hiding in a cave or running from the military. My point is Osama was a bad guy we created and funded, he did attack us before, but why did we medically treat him? Why not scoop him up in the 4-5 reported times we encountered him between 93-01? Why was he still listed as a CIA asset after the fall of communism in the 80's? It's all so damning. After you see enough of these odd or outright wacky things the US government gets away with, you start to understand why and how.

~Dingus Mungus

Well at least I'm not a nut for believing in OU... Everyone go look at the Linnard Griffin HHO on demand thread. Conclusive replication of a semi closed loop. (evaporation?)

Quote from: ring_theory on July 22, 2007, 08:21:19 AM
Inaccurate, yes i agree. But still how does that change the fact that terrorists flew planes into WTC #1 #2 and as a result WTC #7 also collapsed.

If the reported hijackers were wrong couldn't the organizations responcible be wrong? Mind you most of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia... Our allie and energy epicenter.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 22, 2007, 08:21:19 AM
Molten steel would NOT be evidence that an explosive was used! Molten steel would indicate a fire of over 2750?F. Usually done with a blast furnace However the displacement of air during a collapse of a building that was burning in effected area's may act like a cutting torch for a brief period of time. There is evidence that #7 twisted as it fell this added to the uniform appearance of it's collapse.

Exactly my point. Research energy density and max heat of diesel and then building 7 fall time data. The implosions you see in Vegas or on TV are "spiced up". Most demo experts agree that WTC7 fell like a perfect controled demolition. Like a well trained crew executed it perfectly. Also note that the NIST report lacks metalurgy analysis and the presence of ultra high levels of iron, Al+ and sulfur. Once again its really damning because they don't mention it. Instead the debunkers try to claim the < 2% sulfur present in older outside drywall would be the culprate. Esentially implicating magic spontanious thermate.

I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but maybe I should start demolition company I'll just use a few 100 gallons of diesel to set the building ablaze, but before it ignites its neighboring building on fire it colapses neatly in to its own foot print. I'll make a killing in profits.

~Dingus Mungus

I don't know if this was mentioned before, but all the steel from in the victimized area was exported prematurely. There has to be a certain period of time before they are alowed to take evidence and export it to a recycling center, strangley, all the steel was exported shortly after to china. ???

Quote from: HopeForHumanity on July 23, 2007, 01:22:31 AM
I don't know if this was mentioned before, but all the steel from in the victimized area was exported prematurely. There has to be a certain period of time before they are alowed to take evidence and export it to a recycling center, strangley, all the steel was exported shortly after to china. ???

all the steel?? Oh yeah?
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/4-4-2006-92704.asp
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/4/3/161228.shtml?s=ic
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=1608

Ok this one mentions china.
http://wasteage.com/news/waste_world_trade_center_2/

More disinformation?

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on July 22, 2007, 11:53:39 PM

Quote from: ring_theory on July 22, 2007, 08:21:19 AM
Inaccurate, yes i agree. But still how does that change the fact that terrorists flew planes into WTC #1 #2 and as a result WTC #7 also collapsed.

If the reported hijackers were wrong couldn't the organizations responcible be wrong? Mind you most of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia... Our allie and energy epicenter.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 22, 2007, 08:21:19 AM
Molten steel would NOT be evidence that an explosive was used! Molten steel would indicate a fire of over 2750?F. Usually done with a blast furnace However the displacement of air during a collapse of a building that was burning in effected area's may act like a cutting torch for a brief period of time. There is evidence that #7 twisted as it fell this added to the uniform appearance of it's collapse.

Exactly my point. Research energy density and max heat of diesel and then building 7 fall time data. The implosions you see in Vegas or on TV are "spiced up". Most demo experts agree that WTC7 fell like a perfect controled demolition. Like a well trained crew executed it perfectly. Also note that the NIST report lacks metalurgy analysis and the presence of ultra high levels of iron, Al+ and sulfur. Once again its really damning because they don't mention it. Instead the debunkers try to claim the < 2% sulfur present in older outside drywall would be the culprate. Esentially implicating magic spontanious thermate.

I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but maybe I should start demolition company I'll just use a few 100 gallons of diesel to set the building ablaze, but before it ignites its neighboring building on fire it colapses neatly in to its own foot print. I'll make a killing in profits.

~Dingus Mungus

Saudia arabia is where bin laden came from originally. :P well yes they could be wrong but i doubt it in this case. "perfect controled demolition" not so perfect, it fell onto another building it twisted so much. Your demolition company wouldn't fair too well. how are you going to get aircraft and debris from WTC #1? you have repeatedly rejected that there was structural damage due to debris. Well your demo company might do ok if you add fertilizer to the diesel and call it the Mcveigh demolitions company.  ::)

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on July 22, 2007, 07:46:31 PM
Ok Ring, I know his words are a little tin foil hat-ish if you will, but his main point stands. Look at the way people dress, behave, and interact with each other and how it relates to mass media and conditioning. It should be said that I stopped owning a television about 4 years ago. I have no idea what most people are talking about at work, because their lives so closely mirror the television.

Ok I understand the conditioning thing

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on July 22, 2007, 07:46:31 PM
You said we are "tearing at the freedoms that the victims themselfs enjoyed and fought to maintain"... WTF? How are we taking away freedoms? Are you not paying attention while typing or are you saying the government is taking them away to control us?

I'm paying full attention to what i'm typing. I'm saying you as part of the so called "truth movement" By false accusations, misrepresented facts, wild conspiracies, Denial that it was actually a terrorist attack that set the chain of events in motion, Are casting doubt on the government in general at a time when the government needs the peoples support. As a result it tears at the freedoms that we enjoy and fight for by breaking down the governments credibility and how it is viewed in a world theater. Look around you don't you see that "We the people" are the government? The whole "war on terror" thing, Demanded by the people before the bush administration. sometime after the first WTC bombing.     

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on July 22, 2007, 07:46:31 PM
Then you claim the governments courses of action are as follows: "There is two ways of doing that. one is the government can go militant and cast doubt on the people. or it can persue radical terrorists by taking the fight to them at the source."

They have cast doubt on US citizens, patriot act I and II, there are dozens of examples of this. They are following both of your plans thuroughly. As for fighting them "there" so we don't have to fight them here. Thats totally double think, They only want to fight us here because we are there. Do you not see this. Do you believe the Iraqi people respect us for bombing their country for the last 15 years?

to an extent i agree but it is far less a state of militant than i expected. Patriot act. BAH! If the iraqis people respect us for anything it is that we ousted the bagdad butcher. however the downfall is saddam was the only thing in the region keeping iran in check. The muslims call it jihad "Holy war" it would be the equivilent of a religious uprising in the us each faith fighting eachother. it has been going on for centuries between iran shiite, and iraq shiia. By leaving now we would undermine the iraqi's fight and their ability to defend themselfs. allready due to our meddling we have placed a iranian in charge of iraq. it is no wonder that iraq want's iran and america to meet and resolve our differences. the sooner we leave iraq the sooner the shiites can slaughter the shiia.

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on July 22, 2007, 07:46:31 PM
We are breeding new terrorists everday we occupy a muslim country. After all if China had bases in Ohio and Kansas while occupying the white house, I too would raise my arms against the threat. Put the shoe on the other foot. Look at things from other angles. I assure you I don't waste time on useless things. This is important for all Americans to see and understand.

~Dingus Mungus

No the radical muslim faith is breeding terrorism. they literally do! they strap play bombs to their children to prepare them for the day when they will become a martyr.
NO! You and the rest of the ignorant masses looking to discrace the government are just as bad as the terrorists by promoting anarchy by attacking the government. Once anarchy breaks out you will be hard pressed to enjoy what your idea of freedom is, as others have a different more radical and violent picture of what freedom is.

I don't care how you look at it. Either you support your government or you support terrorism. It's that simple. If you don't support your government in it's indevours and you dislike the way things are run here? Than Leave! But good luck on finding freedoms such as we enjoy elsewhere!  >:(   

Ring you're not interested in learning anything here. You've realized that the list of hijackers was inaccurate, you've realized that there was indeed 2500+ temps melting steel in WTC7, You've realized that the war in Iraq is a sham, You've realized that our rights and freedoms are being slowly taken from us. And still you accuse "us" the people of ruining your country. We don't have that kind of power. The president of these united states has repeatedly lied to the people. He has instructed his cabnet members to lie. He has left us in a financhial lurch that we will collectively feel for generations, but you chose to blame "us" for the problems.

You can keep repeating talking points and deniying the obvious, I can't help you... Everytime I show you something, even things you request with lines like "I'd like to see proof of that" , you disregard it as unimportant or misrepresented. I just hope the country and constitution I love survives this sad period in american history, but its not looking especially good when the people willfully defend treasonus men. Only history will reveal the fool of this debate, and sadly those who have the power write the history.

~Dingus Mungus

P.S. Ron Paul for president!!! Isn't it time we had a real republican in office???

A montage of lies... Not by the people...
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=3slsCBqrQfk
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=bNws6IG696M
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm73wOuPL60

ring_theory just wants to have post wars with someone. Ring_Theory, what are your intentions here????

Quote from: ring_theory on July 23, 2007, 08:22:04 AM

Quote from: HopeForHumanity on July 23, 2007, 01:22:31 AM
I don't know if this was mentioned before, but all the steel from in the victimized area was exported prematurely. There has to be a certain period of time before they are alowed to take evidence and export it to a recycling center, strangley, all the steel was exported shortly after to china. ???

all the steel?? Oh yeah?
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/4-4-2006-92704.asp
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/4/3/161228.shtml?s=ic
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=1608

Ok this one mentions china.
http://wasteage.com/news/waste_world_trade_center_2/

More disinformation?

LOL!!!, I guess I wasn't 100% accurate. But that doesn't steal the main portion of my post(pun not intended). If you want to win an argument, start with the main concept....

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on July 23, 2007, 10:06:28 PM
Ring you're not interested in learning anything here. You've realized that the list of hijackers was inaccurate, you've realized that there was indeed 2500+ temps melting steel in WTC7, You've realized that the war in Iraq is a sham, You've realized that our rights and freedoms are being slowly taken from us. And still you accuse "us" the people of ruining your country. We don't have that kind of power. The president of these united states has repeatedly lied to the people. He has instructed his cabnet members to lie. He has left us in a financhial lurch that we will collectively feel for generations, but you chose to blame "us" for the problems.

You can keep repeating talking points and deniying the obvious, I can't help you... Everytime I show you something, even things you request with lines like "I'd like to see proof of that" , you disregard it as unimportant or misrepresented. I just hope the country and constitution I love survives this sad period in american history, but its not looking especially good when the people willfully defend treasonus men. Only history will reveal the fool of this debate, and sadly those who have the power write the history.

~Dingus Mungus

P.S. Ron Paul for president!!! Isn't it time we had a real republican in office???

Posted on: Today at 09:17:54 PMPosted by: Dingus Mungus 
A montage of lies... Not by the people...
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=3slsCBqrQfk
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=bNws6IG696M
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm73wOuPL60

I'm no bush fan that's for sure. so i'm not defending his actions. I'm defending the government as a institution that IS run by the people and for the people. However you need to seporate the hatrid that the president and other administrative people lied, and the very real terrorist attack of 9/11 and the potential for it to occur again. I'm not here to learn of these things I'm here to teach what I have learned of these things. The truth is that only no good can become of systematicly and repeatedly tearing at the government as a people run institution.

The mentality of "well they lied to us about WMD than they must have lied about 9/11". Just doesn't wash with me. you better bring a stronger arguement than what has been presented in this thread.  Because all i see is a great loss of lifes and buildings falling due to a terrorist attack, and a people driven government doing what the people wanted. To attack those that attacked us in general Al quida. Sure, lifes and limbs are being lost but that's what the people wanted. To go after terrorism! You cannot just say i think we will go after terrorists for a year and quit, accepting that as a pound of flesh for the 9/11 attack. No we need to be in it till terrorism and the radical type of religions that breed terrorism is wiped clean of the globe.

FREEDOM DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO COMMIT ACTS OF TERRORISM OR PROMOTE ANARCHY.       

Quote from: HopeForHumanity on July 24, 2007, 12:06:20 AM
ring_theory just wants to have post wars with someone. Ring_Theory, what are your intentions here????

Come now Hope... We're all on the same team here. He, like us, just needs better evidence. We are not so different from him. The point was making is no matter how much evidence I try to provide, I am treated like an enemy for providing it. Much like you have just treated him, with wild accusations and unsound judgment. There is no good I can bring to this debate, as its not a debate but a battle of emotion, logic, and nationalism.

The shitty state of affairs the country is in is not the fault of the protester, but that which he is protesting. Sometimes people are confused in to thinking the opposite. Nothing we can do about it, except continue to search for truth.

Never stand down.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcontent.answers.com%2Fmain%2Fcontent%2Fwp%2Fen%2Fthumb%2F7%2F7d%2F300px-Tianasquare.jpg&hash=6f42650626b136badb148fa7fd0609efb8ddc71b)

~Dingus Mungus

Quote from: HopeForHumanity on July 24, 2007, 12:06:20 AM
ring_theory just wants to have post wars with someone. Ring_Theory, what are your intentions here????

This thread? to prove there is no truth to this farse of a truth movement. OU Community? Open Source and Peer review of my technologies.  8)

Quote from: ring_theory on July 24, 2007, 12:45:14 AM
Sure, lifes and limbs are being lost but that's what the people wanted. To go after terrorism! You cannot just say i think we will go after terrorists for a year and quit, accepting that as a pound of flesh for the 9/11 attack. No we need to be in it till terrorism and the radical type of religions that breed terrorism is wiped clean of the globe.

Theres a word for that... Genocide. Congrats...

Quote from: ring_theory on July 24, 2007, 12:45:14 AM
FREEDOM DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO COMMIT ACTS OF TERRORISM OR PROMOTE ANARCHY.       

Clearly I have niether condoned terrorism nor anarchy. I'm a libertarian, I have memorized most of the constitution by heart. It's the core of my existance... But the people who wrote it would not condone the actions our country has taken. I can get quotes or you could go read the fed/antifed papers again. Once again though, I must spell out the fact that I want america to be as well off as it was 50 or even 100 years ago, but you contrive that to mean I hate America. Obviously there is nothing I could say to convince you otherwise since you invoke the "love it or leave it" talking point once a page at least.

I was for invasion of Afganistan, via "congressional declaration", but it was obvious from day one to me that Iraq was not a threat or an allie of Osama. That was discussed in congress by Rice and Powell months before 9-11 even happened. Lots and lots of people protested the Iraq invasion. Whole cities protested it, the UN, Americans, French (most noted in press)... Lots of people were against it from the begining. We did speak up. Only those unable to see past their own scary shadow were up for invading a second country. You've been duped, but rather than wake up to this and damage your own ego, you hold stead fast like the president never flinching in the presence of facts or new information.

Cling to your happy existance while others die fighting a war we shouldn't even be involved in. While our nation goes bankrupt spending 11billion a month on just iraq you can save for your kids college fund. While we bomb families and inoccent people of another faith you can ask your god for forgiveness. It saddens me that this is what America has become...

Besides... This has gone way OT. This is the 9-11 thread, but clearly Iraq was the plan from day 0.

~Dingus Mungus

P.S. Does this evidence show you anything new?
Or is this all also coincidence and conjecture?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTdAkhd6Dcw
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/
http://911.smokr.info/John_oneill.htm#2 *interesting read
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/011805_simplify_case.shtml 

Ring the truth movement is dedicated to the principles of the original intention of the constitution, remove the liars,greedy,opportunists,manipulators,power hungry,cowardly,sneaky, in a word EVIL, from being able to affect our lives. WE DO LOVE IT AND ARE WILLING TO FIGHT FOR IT, we want it back from the scumbags. Its a sad day when every american knows that politicians are corrupt, these reasons are the very reason we rebelled and started this country, and I owe everything I have to my God and those men, and I will not sit quietly watching the rights they died to give me being ripped away. You can support them all you want but there is an evil in the government that needs to be cut out like a cancer, and if you deny that you are a Benedict and can suffer the same fate. Lets say 911 wasn't them, it is an undisputable FACT that they lied, it is a fact that they abuse their position, it is a fact that our government is not doing what the people of this nation want, they do what they want, for their own gain. If you care so much then start fighting  or you can leave. Like you said love it, or leave it.


This is not the USA Anymore I want the USA back.
You pride yourself on being smart, then learn everything instead of reciting dogma

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9sg_NRC8ozk
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q6_0SQo8c10

WOW here are some really good building 7 documentry clips! First time I've seen these two, but again they're pretty cut and dry. You can hear and see the demolition!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58h0LjdMry0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qWFVzBdM5s

I especially like this one... It's set up to debunk the conspiracy, but oddly I never see a hole in the video?!?!?! I watched it full screen and played with brightness/contrast all the black areas are all obviously carbon deposits from the fire. You can still see window outlines in them. So the only proof in this video is a voice saying "wow, would you look at that hole, thats going to come down." Which could be easily dubbed by anyone after the fact, but an even easier assumption is the voice was talking about one of the towers. One of the many big holes we have actually seen pictures of. Unless of course someone here has better evidence of WTC7's "structural damage". Video speaks for itself. Also note comments disabled... Looks like debunkers don't like being debunked. If you spot the hole can you screen cap and circle it in red for me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afb7eUHr64U

~Dingus Mungus

More evidence of molten steel!
OMFG watch the end of the clip!!!
Thats one big smoking gun when it comes to NIST lying publicly!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvx6TSXJEMM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh9TsTWITzA

Another plain worded explanation of the impossible fall time of wtc7.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W0N-qH0ac4

Demo expert I refrenced earlier that debunkers use "out of context".
The how:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3DRhwRN06I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sep-HDZoEBM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boNzLZInbjU
Reconfirmation due to "debunkers":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QajDxF9uEf4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLnaogsm60A
Their all a bunch of liars... Did you see his publicists face? John Kerry mentions hearing about controled demo in building 7 at a QA in Texas. His publicist nods when he discusses the danger a wall posed to a near by building, as if she also heard that... Then less than a second later both their faces change and the back pedal begins.

It's good to be aware that Mossad the Isreali Intel. had a big part in the attacks, aswell are inbedded in the US data companies, like the phone tapping companies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVDCzymSTw8&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eopposingdigits%2Ecom%2Fforums%2Fviewtopic%2Ephp%3Ft%3D7017

http://opposingdigits.com/vlog/?p=66


and the bigger consiracy then 9/11 is the Banksters and Media barrons that run the world, and that everyone is enslaved and don't even know it, because they can't understand their system of slavery.

Quote from: buzneg on July 24, 2007, 04:26:49 PM
It's good to be aware that Mossad the Isreali Intel. had a big part in the attacks, aswell are inbedded in the US data companies, like the phone tapping companies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVDCzymSTw8&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eopposingdigits%2Ecom%2Fforums%2Fviewtopic%2Ephp%3Ft%3D7017

http://opposingdigits.com/vlog/?p=66


and the bigger consiracy then 9/11 is the Banksters and Media barrons that run the world, and that everyone is enslaved and don't even know it, because they can't understand their system of slavery.

Unfortunately though, not a lot of credible evidence exists. Don't give the missinformationists the upper hand. Only recite theories that you can use math or facts to back up. The people responsible want you to be confused by remote controlled planes, pentagon missle strike, anti-semitism, and pure conjecture. Think about it... What better way exists to debunk a fact then to discredit it by its lumped invovement in a greater arguement.

I don't know who did it, but I know they did it with explosives in WTC7. I don't know who they worked for, but many of the accused but found innocent hijackers were ex-saudi military. I don't know how they got explosives in, but its obvious from metalugy reports and photos that it had to be a thermite mix that burning diesel could not auto-ignite, and would require several hundred man hours to set up. I don't know if the government was complicit, but their actions and denials make them appear to be guilty enough to suspect.

Basically build your case from fact and don't assert things like "it was the jews" as it will only be used to discredit the info contained in your case. Do you see what I mean? Allow the reader to implicate the responcible party by the facts you present. As soon as you make an accusation you can't back up with fact, they throw out ALL of your facts.

~Dingus Mungus

P.S. I really hope you aren't like Ring_Theory and calling for the extermination of another faith...

One thing is fact, 9/11 was a lie, and it was our government that propagated that lie. Innocent of action or knowledge, some may be, but you only lie if you were involved. Every cop on the planet knows that, find someone lying and find out what they are hiding. Usually the liars are the accomplices not the hand. We need to reevaluate the way the government works and change it, so that the checks and balances actually work as intended. Our forefathers knew that if anyone could control too much then they would cause trouble, what they didn't know is how rich people could really become and therefore how much they could control the government.

some of founding fathers of the US did.

http://www.freedomdomain.com/bankquot.html

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.
Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The
issuing power (of money) should be taken away from the banks and restored to the people to
whom it properly belongs."--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President.

"If Congress has the right [it doesn't] to issue paper money [currency], it was given to them to be
used by...[the government] and not to be delegated to individuals or corporations" -- President
Andrew Jackson, Vetoed Bank Bill of 1836

"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to
maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance". -- James Madison

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ6YiZgHei8

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on July 24, 2007, 10:03:43 PM


P.S. I really hope you aren't like Ring_Theory and calling for the extermination of another faith...

BAH!! And just what have and are they calling for?? Certainly not the peacefull co existance of terroristic and peacefull faiths??  The extermination of the american people and any like them is what they are calling for! I suppose next time they attack, you will try to blame that on the government too?? Don't fool your self they will attack again and again and again! If we pull out of iraq and allow iran to flourish with their nuclear ambitions we all will be nothing more than glowing bits of radioactive biomass. These people are 1,000,000 times worse than the lieing government will ever be. They don't care about life, liberty, freedom, or the persuit of happiness. In fact they dispise them and will die as a martyr just to collect their 70 virgins that their pedophile profit has said they will recieve in the afterlife.

I never called for it. However if all they want to do is die as a martyr I say they can easily be obliged. Another faith? Well according to the pope they are not a faith. Who says i have a faith? I certainly am not following the masses on the so called truth movement what in your right mind thinks i would follow a fairytale like religion? Afterall isn't faith and religion the root of this whole mess anyway's??? What part of JIHAD don't you understand?? I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you have a religion please forgive me if i'm wrong. I'm not well versed in all religion but there is one simularity they predict a second coming and a rising of evil. You didn't get the memo? A holy war has started. Now. Who's the evil? us or them?

Anyway's the mass energy of any building is going to fall eventually, correct?? Where's it going to fall? Down in a direct and least resistive path, correct? How many ways can a building fall? Over and collapse, correct?  Even when a building is taken down with a wrecking ball it's mass still falls basicly in it's footprint. implosion same way, Correct? Physics natural or man made doesn't allow or predict a different result. It's that simple. Now How many ways can WTC #7 Fall??  I would more believe it a inside job if the building fell up. But there is nothing unusual about the way either of the WTC buildings fell given the events that unfolded that day.

The real truth lies within who is at fault. Ok i'm aware that the chimp cheated the elections, spied on americans, Forced through a not so patriotic patriot act. Acted on faulty intelligence, misrepresented facts, blatantly destroyed liberties, ETC. However He and his accomplices need to atone for them. but i don't feel that the so called truth movement which is largely based on wild accusations and the wanting of the masses to find some evidence that bush is lieng yet again. Like that would get him impeached tomorrow. BAH! What part of politicians lie don't you understand?! They lie to get into office, they lie while in office, and they lie after leaving office.

Pinning 9/11 on the current administration unjustly can only take honor from the victims, deny the loved ones closure, discrace the entire country, topple the government, and promote anarchy. The whole time a crazy radical terrorist is laughing at us. patting himself on the back for a job well done and gloating in his victory andplanning the next attack.   >:(

 

One

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2811861556129933983&q=one+metallica&total=5703&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

I'm sure, just like the jews were a threat to the German people...
1000x more people have died of the flu in ratio to terror attacks.
Why don't we have a war on cancer instead??? (100,000x)

There is one little flaw to your inane ranting? Why us? Why not Mexico, France, or their real enemy ISREAL??? Arabs hate jews... And we funded those terrorists for a decade! Wake up dude they hate us because we've been bombing them for 15 years, and continue with our shitty foreign policy. Which equates to installing dictators, staging coupes, and raping resources. Mind you we've been continuously at war or in an international conflict since Korea. It doesn't matter anyway. If you knew anything about US economic trends you'd know its too late anyway. Rejoice in your war against shadows, it'll ruin our country in the long run.

~Dingus Mungus

"A holy war has started. Now. Who's the evil? us or them?"
It's now a question of which is the lesser of two evils...
I still believe American citizens are peaceful and good though.
(for the most part *cough cough*)

They crash planes and we drop bombs. Its a self feeding cycle.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1338749,00.html

We kill them, they kill us... Yet we just keep doing it over and over.
So your genius solution is: "Derrrr we'll just kill em all!!! HYUCK!"
Like no one has ever said that before! OPEN A HISTORY BOOK!

http://www.thefourreasons.org/victimsofwar.htm
Iraqi women and children... Liberated...

We have to be aware that their idea of liberty is completely different than ours, and that it doesn't matter what type of government it is but the people in the government. I would love jesus as a dictator, but as a dictator is he bad, no! Thats why we have a constitution, to sustain the people not the government.

Sorry that only covered your first two paragraphs...

The building should have fell straight down? Thats a suprise to me. So if you pull out the support in the game of jenga does the high center of gravity shift twards the path of least resistance? Ohhhh But if you cut all the support columbs that does mean straight down! You don't read or watch anything anyone posts... This discussion is pointless. Why not discuss the presence of Molten steel? Or the explosions clearly seen and hear in the videos I posted? Why do you keep sweeping that all under the carpet to repeat the same point over and over? Do you think I'll forget?

You say "The real truth lies within who is at fault."
Yet the war in Afganistan is over with the exception of setting up those new bases. The saudi royal family has been staying at the white house with the bush family. No one has seen or heard from Osama in years. Roughly 50% of the accuse hijackers are either alive and have alibis, or were pronounced dead and burried years before. So you tell me, since you know with absolutely zero doubt exactly who is responcible and who we should punnish. I KNOW our leaders failed us that day, but they recieved no punishment. The taliban has been dismissed from Afgan power. I'm pretty sure outside of the mess we made of Iraq they've been punnished. Think about whos dieing every day... Our sons and daughters and the Iraqi sons and daughters. Then explain to me why Iraqi civilians deserve this, and how we will benifit from our actions in Iraq.

~Dingus Mungus

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on July 25, 2007, 05:49:29 AM
Sorry that only covered your first two paragraphs...

The building should have fell straight down? Thats a suprise to me. So if you pull out the support in the game of jenga does the high center of gravity shift twards the path of least resistance? Ohhhh But if you cut all the support columbs that does mean straight down! You don't read or watch anything anyone posts... This discussion is pointless. Why not discuss the presence of Molten steel? Or the explosions clearly seen and hear in the videos I posted? Why do you keep sweeping that all under the carpet to repeat the same point over and over? Do you think I'll forget?

You say "The real truth lies within who is at fault."
Yet the war in Afganistan is over with the exception of setting up those new bases. The saudi royal family has been staying at the white house with the bush family. No one has seen or heard from Osama in years. Roughly 50% of the accuse hijackers are either alive and have alibis, or were pronounced dead and burried years before. So you tell me, since you know with absolutely zero doubt exactly who is responcible and who we should punnish. I KNOW our leaders failed us that day, but they recieved no punishment. The taliban has been dismissed from Afgan power. I'm pretty sure outside of the mess we made of Iraq they've been punnished. Think about whos dieing every day... Our sons and daughters and the Iraqi sons and daughters. Then explain to me why Iraqi civilians deserve this, and how we will benifit from our actions in Iraq.

~Dingus Mungus

Your basing your knowledge of how a building falls with a game jenga?? Sad mistake! and your weakest arguement yet. A 47 story house of cards would better reflect the dynamics involved. Your representation of blocks of wood would fall under the catagory of OVER. you know "topple over", anyways I am watching the videos listening to the commentary and reading the blogs ALL FACTS are taken into account. However the so called truth movement is NOT on a fact finding mission Your simply trying to make the facts fit the conspiracy. For the average mind that seems to be effective.

Your not reading my posts! I have addressed the issue of molten metal and Impacts sounding like explosions. I could further the opinion by proving that metal shearing also sounds like an explosion. You wouldn't read that either!?  But still you cannot see the facts because your vision is clouded by your dislike for the administration and the wanting of this to be their fault. The whole time not even giving a minutes notice of 3000+ lives lost and or destroyed by just what occured on 9/11. So the list is inaccurate it wouldn't be the first time intel was wrong. Just because the list is wrong or incomplete doesn't mean that the planes were remotely piloted. Just because the plane that flew into the pentagon was just a blur and little remained of it doesnt make it a cruse missle in any other capacity than terrorists used it as such. Yes our administration failed us that day in a large amount of ways. but they are not responcible for it meaning that they werent behind it.

The points i raise are directly related. you keep dismissing my evidence and not addressing the points. ofcourse i am going to repeat them untill you address them.

" I'm sure, just like the jews were a threat to the German people...
1000x more people have died of the flu in ratio to terror attacks.
Why don't we have a war on cancer instead??? (100,000x)"

Now your comparing terrorists with jews bieng oppressed by hitler? So in your opinion we are as hitler and the terrorists are as the jews? You need to clarify because yet again it sounds like your supporting terrorism. There is a war on cancer, aids, and everything else that is a threat to the human race. Why should terrorism be any different?

"Why us? Why not Mexico, France, or their real enemy ISREAL??? Arabs hate jews... And we funded those terrorists for a decade! Wake up dude they hate us because we've been bombing them for 15 years, and continue with our shitty foreign policy."

"Why us?" We helped to place the jews in israel at the end of hitlers reign and there is no changing that. Arabs? islam would be the faith that believes the jewish are evil. and rid israel of them by forcing them from their god given land long before hitler. Islam initiated it by forcing them to move from their god given lands in the first place. we re ignited the conflict by giving it back to them. the west bank and gaza strip are proof of the continuing conflict.

The images are compelling but totally off topic now if they were of 9/11 victims it might bring something to your misguided arguement. ::) 

Hi All,
a user emailed me to remove these graphic pictures.

But I guess we should let them here, to see, how
awful just any war is.

This thread is now moving more and more into political
arguments....

Also it seems hate only produces another hate in between
different races of mankind.

It is so sad, that hate rules the world these days...
Especially in our Internet age, where everybody
can pretty anonynmously say his own opinion and the
respect for the others is very low...

This forum was made in a mind goal to bring peace to mankind via
free energy technologies, so please cease to post flamewars
over here and political arguments and I say to all users, please stop the hate.

Let us all be more tolerant, then also the leaders who want to guide us into
war between the races will have no chance to do it ,if we also see their lies.

I appoligise if sometimes I overstep what is tasteful. It saddens me that loss of 3000 people triggers the loss of 300,000 or 3,000,000. Ring Theory, thanks again for accusing me of supporting terrorism. I'll say it again, I support dropping bombs on civilian targets equally as much. In that way that I do not support either action. Both = Terrorism.

I'm done in here... I can't even believe people still support genocide.
As I said before, Only history will proove who the fool of this debate was.

Peace out,
~Dingus Mungus

I suggest getting rid of this thread completely, and all threads like it.

I don't see how 9/11 conspiracy topics fit in an overunity forum.

I don't think it is the purpose of overunity.com to show the world about the ugliness of war.  How does this fit with overunity?

If you step back and look at the stupidity on display in these topics (9/11) you will lose confidence in this whole site, and everyone involved.

< News announcements and other topics >

Quote from: dingbat on July 25, 2007, 05:02:36 PM
I suggest getting rid of this thread completely, and all threads like it.

I don't see how 9/11 conspiracy topics fit in an overunity forum.

I don't think it is the purpose of overunity.com to show the world about the ugliness of war.  How does this fit with overunity?

If you step back and look at the stupidity on display in these topics (9/11) you will lose confidence in this whole site, and everyone involved.

I support this opinion. Stefan axe the whole thread. Let's stick to news regarding overunity please?

Quote< News announcements and other topics >

I would confine "News announcements" to things to do with overunity, such as the news stories at peswiki.com, which always have to do with energy.

I would eliminate "other topics".  Leave "other topics" to "other sites".

This thread serves no constructive purpose on this site.

No, leave the thread be or lock it. Do not delete it. Below is an article by Zbigniew Brzezinski, national security adviser to President Jimmy Carter, which nicely sums up the hyped hysteria about the war on terror.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/23/AR2007032301613.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/23/AR2007032301613.html)

Quote

The "war on terror" has created a culture of fear in America. The Bush administration's elevation of these three words into a national mantra since the horrific events of 9/11 has had a pernicious impact on American democracy, on America's psyche and on U.S. standing in the world. Using this phrase has actually undermined our ability to effectively confront the real challenges we face from fanatics who may use terrorism against us.

The damage these three words have done -- a classic self-inflicted wound -- is infinitely greater than any wild dreams entertained by the fanatical perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks when they were plotting against us in distant Afghan caves. The phrase itself is meaningless. It defines neither a geographic context nor our presumed enemies. Terrorism is not an enemy but a technique of warfare -- political intimidation through the killing of unarmed non-combatants.

But the little secret here may be that the vagueness of the phrase was deliberately (or instinctively) calculated by its sponsors. Constant reference to a "war on terror" did accomplish one major objective: It stimulated the emergence of a culture of fear. Fear obscures reason, intensifies emotions and makes it easier for demagogic politicians to mobilize the public on behalf of the policies they want to pursue. The war of choice in Iraq could never have gained the congressional support it got without the psychological linkage between the shock of 9/11 and the postulated existence of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. Support for President Bush in the 2004 elections was also mobilized in part by the notion that "a nation at war" does not change its commander in chief in midstream. The sense of a pervasive but otherwise imprecise danger was thus channeled in a politically expedient direction by the mobilizing appeal of being "at war."

To justify the "war on terror," the administration has lately crafted a false historical narrative that could even become a self-fulfilling prophecy. By claiming that its war is similar to earlier U.S. struggles against Nazism and then Stalinism (while ignoring the fact that both Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia were first-rate military powers, a status al-Qaeda neither has nor can achieve), the administration could be preparing the case for war with Iran. Such war would then plunge America into a protracted conflict spanning Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and perhaps also Pakistan.

The culture of fear is like a genie that has been let out of its bottle. It acquires a life of its own -- and can become demoralizing. America today is not the self-confident and determined nation that responded to Pearl Harbor; nor is it the America that heard from its leader, at another moment of crisis, the powerful words "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself"; nor is it the calm America that waged the Cold War with quiet persistence despite the knowledge that a real war could be initiated abruptly within minutes and prompt the death of 100 million Americans within just a few hours. We are now divided, uncertain and potentially very susceptible to panic in the event of another terrorist act in the United States itself.

That is the result of five years of almost continuous national brainwashing on the subject of terror, quite unlike the more muted reactions of several other nations (Britain, Spain, Italy, Germany, Japan, to mention just a few) that also have suffered painful terrorist acts. In his latest justification for his war in Iraq, President Bush even claims absurdly that he has to continue waging it lest al-Qaeda cross the Atlantic to launch a war of terror here in the United States.

Such fear-mongering, reinforced by security entrepreneurs, the mass media and the entertainment industry, generates its own momentum. The terror entrepreneurs, usually described as experts on terrorism, are necessarily engaged in competition to justify their existence. Hence their task is to convince the public that it faces new threats. That puts a premium on the presentation of credible scenarios of ever-more-horrifying acts of violence, sometimes even with blueprints for their implementation.

That America has become insecure and more paranoid is hardly debatable. A recent study reported that in 2003, Congress identified 160 sites as potentially important national targets for would-be terrorists. With lobbyists weighing in, by the end of that year the list had grown to 1,849; by the end of 2004, to 28,360; by 2005, to 77,769. The national database of possible targets now has some 300,000 items in it, including the Sears Tower in Chicago and an Illinois Apple and Pork Festival.

Just last week, here in Washington, on my way to visit a journalistic office, I had to pass through one of the absurd "security checks" that have proliferated in almost all the privately owned office buildings in this capital -- and in New York City. A uniformed guard required me to fill out a form, show an I.D. and in this case explain in writing the purpose of my visit. Would a visiting terrorist indicate in writing that the purpose is "to blow up the building"? Would the guard be able to arrest such a self-confessing, would-be suicide bomber? To make matters more absurd, large department stores, with their crowds of shoppers, do not have any comparable procedures. Nor do concert halls or movie theaters. Yet such "security" procedures have become routine, wasting hundreds of millions of dollars and further contributing to a siege mentality.

Government at every level has stimulated the paranoia. Consider, for example, the electronic billboards over interstate highways urging motorists to "Report Suspicious Activity" (drivers in turbans?). Some mass media have made their own contribution. The cable channels and some print media have found that horror scenarios attract audiences, while terror "experts" as "consultants" provide authenticity for the apocalyptic visions fed to the American public. Hence the proliferation of programs with bearded "terrorists" as the central villains. Their general effect is to reinforce the sense of the unknown but lurking danger that is said to increasingly threaten the lives of all Americans.

The entertainment industry has also jumped into the act. Hence the TV serials and films in which the evil characters have recognizable Arab features, sometimes highlighted by religious gestures, that exploit public anxiety and stimulate Islamophobia. Arab facial stereotypes, particularly in newspaper cartoons, have at times been rendered in a manner sadly reminiscent of the Nazi anti-Semitic campaigns. Lately, even some college student organizations have become involved in such propagation, apparently oblivious to the menacing connection between the stimulation of racial and religious hatreds and the unleashing of the unprecedented crimes of the Holocaust.

The atmosphere generated by the "war on terror" has encouraged legal and political harassment of Arab Americans (generally loyal Americans) for conduct that has not been unique to them. A case in point is the reported harassment of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) for its attempts to emulate, not very successfully, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). Some House Republicans recently described CAIR members as "terrorist apologists" who should not be allowed to use a Capitol meeting room for a panel discussion.

Social discrimination, for example toward Muslim air travelers, has also been its unintended byproduct. Not surprisingly, animus toward the United States even among Muslims otherwise not particularly concerned with the Middle East has intensified, while America's reputation as a leader in fostering constructive interracial and interreligious relations has suffered egregiously.

The record is even more troubling in the general area of civil rights. The culture of fear has bred intolerance, suspicion of foreigners and the adoption of legal procedures that undermine fundamental notions of justice. Innocent until proven guilty has been diluted if not undone, with some -- even U.S. citizens -- incarcerated for lengthy periods of time without effective and prompt access to due process. There is no known, hard evidence that such excess has prevented significant acts of terrorism, and convictions for would-be terrorists of any kind have been few and far between. Someday Americans will be as ashamed of this record as they now have become of the earlier instances in U.S. history of panic by the many prompting intolerance against the few.

In the meantime, the "war on terror" has gravely damaged the United States internationally. For Muslims, the similarity between the rough treatment of Iraqi civilians by the U.S. military and of the Palestinians by the Israelis has prompted a widespread sense of hostility toward the United States in general. It's not the "war on terror" that angers Muslims watching the news on television, it's the victimization of Arab civilians. And the resentment is not limited to Muslims. A recent BBC poll of 28,000 people in 27 countries that sought respondents' assessments of the role of states in international affairs resulted in Israel, Iran and the United States being rated (in that order) as the states with "the most negative influence on the world." Alas, for some that is the new axis of evil!

The events of 9/11 could have resulted in a truly global solidarity against extremism and terrorism. A global alliance of moderates, including Muslim ones, engaged in a deliberate campaign both to extirpate the specific terrorist networks and to terminate the political conflicts that spawn terrorism would have been more productive than a demagogically proclaimed and largely solitary U.S. "war on terror" against "Islamo-fascism." Only a confidently determined and reasonable America can promote genuine international security which then leaves no political space for terrorism.

Where is the U.S. leader ready to say, "Enough of this hysteria, stop this paranoia"? Even in the face of future terrorist attacks, the likelihood of which cannot be denied, let us show some sense. Let us be true to our traditions.

Like all threads, you have the right not to read it, those of you who disagree say your piece if you want, but we will defend what we have proven, if you don't like you can just not continue to ready. Personally ring I think you have a shallow small vision of the world and what people in it do to eachother. You have that right I only ask that like the rest of the topics in this forum, you allow the possibility to exist, because you have not proof that can sway us and we none for you. If you don't like it the leave the thread, it does no harm to you.

I agree those pictures should be removed, put a link to them with a warning instead.

And here's a speech by JFK 8)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1710662559138481080&q=jfk+speech&total=341&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Quote from: d3adp00l on July 25, 2007, 09:51:45 PM
Like all threads, you have the right not to read it, those of you who disagree say your piece if you want, but we will defend what we have proven, if you don't like you can just not continue to ready. Personally ring I think you have a shallow small vision of the world and what people in it do to eachother. You have that right I only ask that like the rest of the topics in this forum, you allow the possibility to exist, because you have not proof that can sway us and we none for you. If you don't like it the leave the thread, it does no harm to you.

My vision isn't limited to anything so small as the world. It does great harm to me and my fellow americans! I cannot allow Terrorists to attack my country and then sit idly by while the blame gets shifted to my government. What if i was one of the next 3000+ I certainly wouldn't want my fellow americans going after the government unjustly while the real murderers are radical terrorists! You cannot present enough proof to persuade me simply because it doesn't exist. It was NOT an inside job!   

@ring_theory

I was disappointed you are calling for this thread to be shut down.
I think that is the most unpatriotic thing I've ever heard
against the first amendment of the constitution.

I'm personally outraged our governments are forming a North American Union with Canada, US and Mexico.
http://www.infowars.net/articles/july2007/250707NAU.htm
This is a kind of North American Union police state. We'll have no more freedoms.
Do you still believe in your government.

People have the right to criticize their government. They have the right to say
whatever they want.

I was fine with 9/11 facts from a math and physics point of view.
It's look to me from a physics and mathematical probability that it was an inside job.
I'm pretty convinced that it is, and I"m supporting a new investigation because it is the proper thing
to do. So many holes in the official story, that many books could be written.

You should support the families of 9/11. They want a new investigation.

I believe that blaming a whole race of muslims for 9/11 is racists. Calling them all terrorists is nonsense.
Another man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

You brang up some good facts.
Keep bringing them up if you feel you are wronged.

Bush has bankrupted the US(not Conservative and he outspent every president combined)
and your dollar is being devalued right before your eyes.
He's just a puppet for the bankers and they are bringing in their corporate North American Union.

Whenever they speak of the war on terror (This term came from the Bush administration)
It is the war on the freedoms of the American people.

Quote from: buzneg on July 25, 2007, 09:58:49 PM
I agree those pictures should be removed, put a link to them with a warning instead.

The pics are being removed and a link will be added in their place. The pictures were really only intended for one person to publicly acknowledge, but his view on genocide did not change. Some people don't see women and children, they all look like terrorists.

(Theres no emoticon for disappointed)
~Dingus Mungus

Quote@ring_theory

I was disappointed you are calling for this thread to be shut down.
I think that is the most unpatriotic thing I've ever heard
against the first amendment of the constitution.

Actually I called for the thread to be shut down, ring just agreed with me.  Don't blame him for something I did.

QuoteLike all threads, you have the right not to read it, those of you who disagree say your piece if you want, but we will defend what we have proven, if you don't like you can just not continue to ready

You are 100 percent correct. (the assertion that anybody has proven anything is highly debatable, however)  That doesn't mean that it belongs on a site called "overunity.com".

QuoteI think that is the most unpatriotic thing I've ever heard
against the first amendment of the constitution.

Nobody is disputing your right to start your own website and talk about 9/11 all you want.  Ask Stefan if you can take the content of this thread to start your site.

I still don't see why a running argument on 9/11 belongs on this forum, which I used to think was about the subject of overunity.  It seems more and more that the site is about conspiracy theories, men in black, ufo's, etc.

I just find that these off topics drain energy from what I thought the focus of this site was (overunity).

QuoteThe pics are being removed and a link will be added in their place. The pictures were really only intended for one person to publicly acknowledge, but his view on genocide did not change.

The mistake you are making is trying to change people's "views".

Dingus,

Would you concede that it is possible that 9/11 was NOT an "inside job".

Ring,

Would you concede that it is possible that 9/11 WAS an "inside job".

Leaving probability and opinions aside - will either one of you concede that the possibility exists that you are wrong about your position?

http://www.freace.de/artikel/200707/220707a.html
http://politblog.net/krieg-terrorismus/die-terrorgefahr-steigt.htm
http://pese.150m.com/li.htm

Some people are scared to take the red pill, so the take the blue and keep living in their own little world fast asleep.  If they here anything that disrupts their little world,  they will fight it with all they have so they can keep living in denial no matter how much evidence is staring them in the face.  They would rather give up their free speech rights or any other rights just to shut down anyone who is the source of the disruption.  Corrupt governments love these people, or should I say "proles". 

I fear this country is already in the crapper.   After the next "catastrophic event" we will see many things.  The loss of the middle class.  The loss of the remaining rights we have.  The rise of a global government.  The fall of the american dollar. The movement from elected presidents to dictatorship.  Cameras around every corner.   Mass arrests and the usage of fema camps around the us.   The continuing rise of the already existing mercenary army under the control of the new global government against its own people... the list goes on. 

When we get to that point I will take pleasure in watching all of the blue pill takers wake up and realize that they are screwed and its all their fault.  When your getting tazored and beat down by members of blackwater for saying or doing something they didn't agree with,  then you will be getting what you deserve.

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on July 26, 2007, 01:33:56 AM

Quote from: buzneg on July 25, 2007, 09:58:49 PM
I agree those pictures should be removed, put a link to them with a warning instead.

The pics are being removed and a link will be added in their place. The pictures were really only intended for one person to publicly acknowledge, but his view on genocide did not change. Some people don't see women and children, they all look like terrorists.

(Theres no emoticon for disappointed)
~Dingus Mungus

Dingus, Bad example. genocide in Iraq?? not till we pull out. If it's anytime soon. Iran WILL and mark my words WILL rule Iraq than they both will take up arms against us. I know Men, women and children are bieng abused and murdered right here on american streets. I don't hear you waving old glory to do anything about that. Corporations have embedded themselfs deep within the government. You know there is supposed to be a seporation of church and state. Yet there is none for the corporate and financial intities?? Where's old glory? That alone should be grounds for a revolution. DHS is conducting their own genocide of the family unit. Yet again i don't see you hailing a truth movement about that? We import too much and have neglected our exports transporting the wealth to other parts of the world without a return. Still you persist with providing null points about terrorist attacks bieng some grand skeme by the administration. The administration will pay and the truths about the scandals will be out there. Then and only then can we as a nation begin to repair the internal damage that the current administration has incurred and get on with the job of placing or reinstating the checks and balances needed to assure that this never is seen in future administrations.

However I will never support seeking a means to an end. by misrepresenting observations of how a building falls or sounds like when it falls, what the debris is supposed to look like without taking ALL contributing factors into account. tisk tisk :P 

Hi All,
as the debate heats up here I installed a poll to this thread so
every user has 1 vote to give his opinion.
So should we leave this thread here or not.
You can vote now until the 15th of August 2007 and
then I will remove the thread, if the results is for
NO
and I will leave it here, if the results is Yes.

So this is now a democractic decision where you all can participate and
not single users will dominate.

Thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Deleted my comment. It was inappropriate.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 26, 2007, 12:04:40 AM
My vision isn't limited to anything so small as the world. It does great harm to me and my fellow americans! I cannot allow Terrorists to attack my country and then sit idly by while the blame gets shifted to my government. What if i was one of the next 3000+ I certainly wouldn't want my fellow americans going after the government unjustly while the real murderers are radical terrorists! You cannot present enough proof to persuade me simply because it doesn't exist. It was NOT an inside job!   

What evidence do we have that the so-called terrorists perpetrated 9/11?  So far, I haven't seen any evidence...Oh ya..we found that passport that happened to fall out of the plane crashing into the tower....Passports are constructed from paper btw..Its interesting how some of the so-called terrorists who flew the planes were later found alive after 9/11...But we should believe everything they say no matter how stupid it sounds right?  Do you believe that jetfuel caused the molten metal found on the bottom of wtc building 7?

If wanting to know the truth of what really happened makes me unpatriotic, then I'm guilty.  Do you really believe that building 7 was brought down by falling debris?  Is it wrong to ask these questions.  Hell NO!  We deserve answers!..All we have recieved are lies, fabrications, and disinformation. Let me ask you a question. 

Who gave the Statue of Liberty to the U.S.?  What was the real symbology of this structure?

Quote from: ring_theory on July 26, 2007, 12:04:40 AM
It was NOT an inside job!   

You are right, but it wasn't terrorists, but a group far more powerful.. The same group which denies the world free energy..

We better figure out whats going on real quick, or another 9/11 attack will become reality on a amplified scale.  Look what the president has done since 9/11.   He taken freedoms away, exponentially increased the debt, and started a war which have killed countless people.

I'm not gonna state my crazy outlandish theory on what this all means, cause it would be rejected on a lack of evidence or solid proof..  All I can say is that there are many unanswered questions, which lead conspiracy theorists to believe that this wasn't done by terrorists in caves.  To solve a mystery or find the guilty, you look towards the ones who have the most motivation.  What was the first thing we did when invading Iraq?  We secured the oil fields... What did Saddam do before we arrived..He ordered the oil fields to be set ablaze...  I'm still waiting on the evidence of WMDs!  Where is it?  Show me pictures of the "found" weapons of mass destruction, which was the basis for invading Iraq.

Facts can't be disputed that Bush has lied on multiple occasions to further his plans and operations. Why is it that people who question the offical story are labled unpatriotic?  Are we living in a dictatorship already?  - Read the patriot act - enacted by the great honest truthful Mr. Bush..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRY_BOYeySc&mode=related&search=

This Bin Laden tape was so bad...Come on now...even a child could tell thats not Bin Laden!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-8U81HBjrg&mode=related&search=

Ministry NWO

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4492110994460331959&q=nwo+ministry&total=123&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Quote from: ring_theory on July 26, 2007, 11:35:39 AM

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on July 26, 2007, 01:33:56 AM

Quote from: buzneg on July 25, 2007, 09:58:49 PM
I agree those pictures should be removed, put a link to them with a warning instead.

The pics are being removed and a link will be added in their place. The pictures were really only intended for one person to publicly acknowledge, but his view on genocide did not change. Some people don't see women and children, they all look like terrorists.

(Theres no emoticon for disappointed)
~Dingus Mungus

Dingus, Bad example. genocide in Iraq?? not till we pull out. If it's anytime soon. Iran WILL and mark my words WILL rule Iraq than they both will take up arms against us. I know Men, women and children are bieng abused and murdered right here on american streets. I don't hear you waving old glory to do anything about that. Corporations have embedded themselfs deep within the government. You know there is supposed to be a seporation of church and state. Yet there is none for the corporate and financial intities?? Where's old glory? That alone should be grounds for a revolution. DHS is conducting their own genocide of the family unit. Yet again i don't see you hailing a truth movement about that? We import too much and have neglected our exports transporting the wealth to other parts of the world without a return. Still you persist with providing null points about terrorist attacks bieng some grand skeme by the administration. The administration will pay and the truths about the scandals will be out there. Then and only then can we as a nation begin to repair the internal damage that the current administration has incurred and get on with the job of placing or reinstating the checks and balances needed to assure that this never is seen in future administrations.

However I will never support seeking a means to an end. by misrepresenting observations of how a building falls or sounds like when it falls, what the debris is supposed to look like without taking ALL contributing factors into account. tisk tisk :P 

Alright now your talking ring. The truth movement is more than 9/11 for me.I have not said the admin did it, I have only said that they lied about it. And for me what I have seen, combined with what I know, and compared with people I have worked with know, the building went down due to other reasons. I know we disagree on that point, but I would rather not allow the lives lost be for nothing so a sham can be played on the ignorant american public. And you having your belief would rather not allow someone the "use" the deaths for other purposes. But either way it happened, it did happen, and now our gov has given itself power like never before, and has marched on two sovern nations, and they "use" those deaths as the excuse. If you don't like what we believe because it involves those lost lives, how do you feel about how the gov used them. And then discarded it and as a quote "do really think about that much" george b. . We could argue the point all day, fact is I care about your opinion as much as you proly care for mine, but we end up in the same pot of stew. The world is a mess of political BS and we need to clean our house before we do anything else. Any system that becomes too complicated to be well understood, that has become too cumbursome to change, that has become too powerful as to not be afraid of anything, has, in nature, become malicious and needs to be removed and redesigned, problem is the system has a need to sustain itself, and therefore will fight back for its own survival.

I have read someplace that politicians are like a babies diaper. They both need to be changed often and for the same reason.

Tim

PS  I believe 911 was an inside job. There is little doubt. I don't think Bush is smart enough to plan this, but Chaney??????

@ ring

Bad example??? Thats funny even if they were killing each other 5 years ago, it didn't effect us. It wasn't untill we ousted hussien out of office that the country fell in to civil war. So it sounds like a great example to me...

All those other things you listed have killed more people here, than all US terror events combined (foreign and domestic in source). I care much more about those things than I do killing terrorists. As a matter of fact I would say a war on corporate control, would show us dramaticly better results in the US than the war on terror has. A point I applaud you for making...

Now for your other points. If Iran takes over Iraq how does that effect you. To go even further along this logic, Iran has offered to help us keep the country in check along with China. We refused both based on logic simular to yours. Exept our government was worried about control over the oil, money, and politics not the people.

If we stopped building bases in the middle east do think islamic terrorists would still hate us? If we stopped supporting our own outlandish foreign policy, aka maintaining thousands of world wide bases, and alliences with countries like Isreal and the Vadican, Do you think they would still hate us? If we stopped bombing their brothers sisters mother fathers and children do you think they would still hate us?

Unfortunately at this point theres not much we could do to undo this mess, but if we just stopped poking our noses in other countries affairs, then we wouldn't be a target.

Now you'll undoubtably reply about how blood thirsty and dangerous Iran is...
History is a good way of knowing this is bullshit. While the leader of Iran has publicly stated several times he wanted to whipe Isreal off the map, look at the war records... He's never done it or even came close to doing it. Simply put he, like yourself, believes whiping out a whole race of people would be benificial to the world, but can't convince people like me to give our lives to attempt such a ludicous thing. I think your both crazy though. The bottom line is if Iran is dangerous and bloodthirsty, then by ratio based on history, we are far far worse!

~Dingus Mungus

Quote from: d3adp00l on July 26, 2007, 09:15:41 PMAlright now your talking ring. The truth movement is more than 9/11 for me.I have not said the admin did it, I have only said that they lied about it. And for me what I have seen, combined with what I know, and compared with people I have worked with know, the building went down due to other reasons. I know we disagree on that point, but I would rather not allow the lives lost be for nothing so a sham can be played on the ignorant american public. And you having your belief would rather not allow someone the "use" the deaths for other purposes. But either way it happened, it did happen, and now our gov has given itself power like never before, and has marched on two sovern nations, and they "use" those deaths as the excuse. If you don't like what we believe because it involves those lost lives, how do you feel about how the gov used them. And then discarded it and as a quote "do really think about that much" george b. . We could argue the point all day, fact is I care about your opinion as much as you proly care for mine, but we end up in the same pot of stew. The world is a mess of political BS and we need to clean our house before we do anything else. Any system that becomes too complicated to be well understood, that has become too cumbursome to change, that has become too powerful as to not be afraid of anything, has, in nature, become malicious and needs to be removed and redesigned, problem is the system has a need to sustain itself, and therefore will fight back for its own survival.

I agree we are in the same pot of stew and i don't think that wanting all those lifes to have meant something is wrong. Not only are we in the same stew the result we seek is the same and equally honorable and patriotic. We both want the truth to be known. However only one of us (me or like thinking, vs so called truth movement) is right. I do care about your and others opinion here. What i care most about that it is truthfull and based on fact. Because if you have to lie and decieve to link any part of 9/11 to the administration, than that makes you (meaning the so called truth movement as a whole) just as bad if you have to use the same mechanisms to obtain victory.

You say they lied about 9/11. Well i'd like to know who and what the lie/lies was? In your opinion not the masses opinion. 8) Are they all based on WTC #7? I really want to get to the bottom of this no matter if the result is that i am wrong. I think i bring some strong arguements to the table that may explain away some of the arguements about the towers and #7's colapses. I'm not posting here as a rant or to oppose all that post here i just want to bring the truth out whichever is the truth. To do that both sides of the argument must be presented and acknowledged and taken into close concideration. It has proven nearly impossible to seporate issues not directly related with the issue of 9/11. So far it seems to go into things that are not directly related to 9/11 like the result of occupying iraq. I know and understand that one is the result of the other but in order to gain victory in both you have to just focus on the events of 9/11. If (and that's a big if in my opinion) it was a inside job than it was only used as premis for bush to again invade iraq. And proof of administrative misconduct of authority.

However the chimps house of cards is allready starting to fall. It is my opinion that he started planning his discretions when his father was president. IMHO!  8)

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on July 26, 2007, 11:44:45 PM
@ ring

Bad example??? Thats funny even if they were killing each other 5 years ago, it didn't effect us. It wasn't untill we ousted hussien out of office that the country fell in to civil war. So it sounds like a great example to me...

All those other things you listed have killed more people here, than all US terror events combined (foreign and domestic in source). I care much more about those things than I do killing terrorists. As a matter of fact I would say a war on corporate control, would show us dramaticly better results in the US than the war on terror has. A point I applaud you for making...

Now for your other points. If Iran takes over Iraq how does that effect you. To go even further along this logic, Iran has offered to help us keep the country in check along with China. We refused both based on logic simular to yours. Exept our government was worried about control over the oil, money, and politics not the people.

If we stopped building bases in the middle east do think islamic terrorists would still hate us? If we stopped supporting our own outlandish foreign policy, aka maintaining thousands of world wide bases, and alliences with countries like Isreal and the Vadican, Do you think they would still hate us? If we stopped bombing their brothers sisters mother fathers and children do you think they would still hate us?

Unfortunately at this point theres not much we could do to undo this mess, but if we just stopped poking our noses in other countries affairs, then we wouldn't be a target.

Now you'll undoubtably reply about how blood thirsty and dangerous Iran is...
History is a good way of knowing this is bullshit. While the leader of Iran has publicly stated several times he wanted to whipe Isreal off the map, look at the war records... He's never done it or even came close to doing it. Simply put he, like yourself, believes whiping out a whole race of people would be benificial to the world, but can't convince people like me to give our lives to attempt such a ludicous thing. I think your both crazy though. The bottom line is if Iran is dangerous and bloodthirsty, then by ratio based on history, we are far far worse!

~Dingus Mungus

Ok Dingus the images were a bad example of genoside. Ok they was killing eachother 5-10-15-50-100-1000+ years ago Iran and iraq have been at war since sticks and stones were the weapon of choice. Long before the discovery of oil in the region. Since saddam took power and used his WMD's and he had them prior to the first invasion primarily on iran but he occationally used them on other countries. killing hundreds of thousands of people within iraq and iran. There is no doubt that he got the name of bagdad butcher for some reason. so he was no nice guy to begin with. I supported the first invasion simply because saddam forcefully took kuwait. I mind you that saddam was tried and exicuted by his own people for his crimes against humanity. A fate we could only hope for with the chimp and his accomplices.
Civil war hasn't happened in iraq. the violence your seeing is a result of taking the single stabilizing threat from power. saddam was keeping iran in check. Don't believe for one minute iran is a peace loving kind of people. You keep saying "history" like that is your ace in the hole yet you don't seem to be aware of some of their more haneous acts. Like holding the us embassy hostage. and irans current leader was wanting the americans killed wittnesses or rather hostages of that even will tell you that. Yeah he's crazy, that's another reason why the retoric he spewes is filth. Sure americans are dieing in iraq but all one has to do is listen to abdenijahd to know the source of it. he calls for volenteers for suicide bombers and tells the world he is training them for just that. a week later suicide bombers start attacking civillian targets in iraq are bombed with suicide bombers. but yet i'm the only one that can make that connection?

Sure we destabilized the region by eliminating the threat of saddam. don't fool yourself that iran wants to truly help. Yea they want to help themselfs to iraq's remaining assets and if they are allowed to take part in the rebuilding of iraq in even the smallest manner there is no hope for iraqi's or the religion they follow. it is a holy war in their eye's has been for centuries. to see where the lines are drawn one only needs to see where the religion originated. shiite=Iran. shiia=iraq. that is the struggle that many see as a civil war in iraq. they share the same koran just they interpret it different omitting any checks and balances. thou shalt not kill, turn the other cheek so on. they might only acknowledge an eye for an eye, and smite them.

Much like our debate/arguement it is based on what we believe to be falsehoods and facts. in our arguement about 9/11. you present what you believe to be fact. i dissmiss it and argue it couldn't have occured that way. Ahbdinijad dissmisses the fact that hitler even existed and he oppressed and was attempting genocide. he dissmisses it because it is the grounds that we relocated many jews to israel at the end of hitlers reign. We and most of the world agree that hitler did what he did. Now just like our arguement. one is guaranteed to be right. If ahbdinijad is correct than Most of the world that wittnessed the horrors hitler inflicted didn't happen and that would mean that the administration at the time had a few scandles brewing themselfs. However if history is right and hitler did attempt genocide than ahbdinijad is wrong and one would have to question his motive for wanting to rewrite history which brings us back to israel and the jews relocation and armament. Iran is quite transparent in it's intentions. Have you ever known an iranian? spent time or worked with an iranian? well I have and they are not pleasant or peacefull.

Iran and china wanting to help? I seen the articles and it is not an ernest attempt to help. Iran for one is and this is no lie "the insurgency" of iraq I forseen that as soon as saddam was captured. China probably for promises of oil and other resources has sided with iran. if iran can get control of iraq they will have the resources of iraq. oil for export to china. It wouldn't suprise me in the least if russia jumps on their bandwagon also offering help lul the so called civil war in iraq which equates to jihad.

Sure if our forefathers hadn't meddled in the region we wouldn't be a target today but the current administration had nothing to do with that. However bush has yet again stirred up tension in the region adding a mix of lies and bring additional dishonor as a wedge bieng used to furthur isolate us from the world even if only in the eye's of world opinion.

"If Iran takes over Iraq how does that effect you." Drasticly reduces world opinion of the US and threatens everything that we have worked for since we declared independence. we will forever be viewed as weak, fat, and lazy and on top of it we will be a prime target of terrorist attacks. the internal government will become a militant state we will be stripped of liberties. if iran get hold of iraq All our sons and daughters that served our country so valiantly will be tried for war crimes and probably exicuted. They will makeup lies and propaganda stating they found mass graves of iraqi's murdered by our military while we occupied iraq In reality the mass graves will be a result of irans own designs of genocide. and due to our at the time very low world opinion they will be believed and furthur devistate our world opinion. trade embargo's. economic sanctions and probably the stripping of our right to have and maintain a nuclear arsonal will follow shortly. I cannot re-inforce the importance of staying the course even if it was not the correct or moral thing to do by invading. Iraqi's MUST be capable of defending their own country against an invasion.

I don't care if that means we stay for the next 20 years and train iraqi's how to rebuild thier government, country, and military. as well as how to refine and market their resources creating jobs and an economy that will support themselfs. If we pull out now we condemn the iraqi's people to death. Sure it would be easier to throw them to the wolf's. but in this case the repricussions would be world wide but focally pointed at us.

So by all means unjustly accuse the government of staging the 9/11 attacks. Don't forget to discrace us just a little more so we can never repair the damage that one rogue administration has allready did.

Two things may spare us. 
#1 a revolution before bush leaves office. Showing the world that we as a united peoples disagree with what bush did and how he did it.
#2 we stay the course in iraq. showing the world that we do care and our willingness to repair damages caused by the bush administration.

Israel stand steadfast! Do not give in. you will be cut off from trade routes isolating yourself from the industrial world. and yet more of your god given land will be again taken. however they will also again face genocide if they do agree.  :'(   

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM

Don't believe for one minute iran is a peace loving kind of people. You keep saying "history" like that is your ace in the hole yet you don't seem to be aware of some of their more haneous acts. Like holding the us embassy hostage. and irans current leader was wanting the americans killed wittnesses or rather hostages of that even will tell you that. Yeah he's crazy, that's another reason why the retoric he spewes is filth. Sure americans are dieing in iraq but all one has to do is listen to abdenijahd to know the source of it. he calls for volenteers for suicide bombers and tells the world he is training them for just that. a week later suicide bombers start attacking civillian targets in iraq are bombed with suicide bombers. but yet i'm the only one that can make that connection?

You are utterly ignorant of 'History' and the West's relationship with Iran so here is a basic timeline.

In 1953 the newly elected President of Iran was overthrown by a CIA coup. The reason why? One of his election promises was to demand a small share of the oil revenues the western companies (mainly British) were recieving, and giving nothing in return.

The now declassified documents show the CIA and British intelligence services engaged in bombings, shootings and riots while arming militia groups to kill and cause chaos. STATE SPONSORED TERRORISM, but because it was done by us we never call it that.

After overthrowing their democratically elected president we installed the Shah of Iran who for the next 25 years ruled Iran like a brutal police state exactly like Saddam Hussain. Beatings, murder, torture, people disappearing of the streets, no political or religious freedom whatsoever.

For all those 25 years we feated the Shah like he was our best friend and supported him 100 % in his repression of his people. We even sold him f-14 fighter planes and gave the Iranians nuclear technology.

In 1979 the Shah fell to the islamic revolution and the Iranian students took the hostages at the embassy, and the religious extremists started the 'Death to America' chants. the American public woke up from a deep slumber asking "Why, why do they hate us?" "We have not done anything to these hateful Iranians!"

Typical westerners ignorant of the pain and death our foreign policy meddling had caused other people.

But it was not enough, we needed some payback real bad, so in 1980 we sold Saddam a huge amount of weapons and encouraged him to attack Iran, capture their oilfields. "it will be a cakewalk"
8 years later and millions of people dead, the war ground to standstill. The Iranian economy was runined, millions of businesses destroyed, hardship and poverty commonplace.

To paraphrase Ron Paul, the question is not "Why do the Iranian's hate us" but "Why woudln't they hate us?"

If you think our western rulers really care about democracy and making the lives of the brown skinned people better you are delusional fool. We only care about having subservient minions who give us whatever we want, like the current dictators we support in

Pakistan (military coup overthrew the government years ago),
Egypt (military government which allows elections to a parliament which holds no power)
Jordan (no elections, police state)
Saudi Arabia (no elections, a police state that sometimes makes Saddam looks tame)
Kuwait (no election, a police state)

You never hear the mainstream media screaming blue murder about those countries listed above, because they are our allies.

As for Ahmadinejad, the president of Iran is a symbolic position that holds no real power whatsoever. Any half serious analyst of the middle east will tell you so, but it suits the current western propaganda to imagine him as having his fingers on the buttons, a premise that is completely detached from reality.

Please show us your source where you claim that Ahmadinejad has called for suicide bombers and trained them to send to Iraq. I think you are mistaking him for another person called Osama Bin Laden, but then they are all just the same bunch of islamofascists who want to kill us right?

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
Ok Dingus the images were a bad example of genoside. Ok they was killing eachother 5-10-15-50-100-1000+ years ago Iran and iraq have been at war since sticks and stones were the weapon of choice. Long before the discovery of oil in the region.

I fully agree, so why are we spending our tax dollars trying to stabilize it? OIL! You agree, its obvious in your reply. This is one of the reasons they target us.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
Since saddam took power and used his WMD's and he had them prior to the first invasion primarily on iran but he occationally used them on other countries. killing hundreds of thousands of people within iraq and iran. There is no doubt that he got the name of bagdad butcher for some reason. so he was no nice guy to begin with. I supported the first invasion simply because saddam forcefully took kuwait.

Firstly WE gave him the WMD's he used!!! For the purpose of killing Iranians! Go figure! Kinda like we gave Osama 10billion in funds, training and weapons to kill the russians. When Saddam missused them by invading Kuwait (oil?) thats when we put a cap on his weapons. I left out the kurds because he had been killing them for years and we didn't intervine, it wasn't untill "forces and tanks were amassing on Kuwaits border according to satalite photos" that we invaded. We all ready had two carriers in the region! He has since been complying with UN procedures and resolutions to the best of his abilities afterall in 2002 "most of the sites were unmanned and locked up" as reported by the UN. He hadn't used any real weapons to kill anyone in 15 years! (unless you think a skud is a real weapon)

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
I mind you that saddam was tried and exicuted by his own people for his crimes against humanity. A fate we could only hope for with the chimp and his accomplices.

More like treason. For knowingly aiding an enemy in time of war.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
Civil war hasn't happened in iraq. the violence your seeing is a result of taking the single stabilizing threat from power. saddam was keeping iran in check. Don't believe for one minute iran is a peace loving kind of people. You keep saying "history" like that is your ace in the hole yet you don't seem to be aware of some of their more haneous acts. Like holding the us embassy hostage.

LMAO! You mean October Surprise right? Bush Sr? LOL! That tickles me.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
and irans current leader was wanting the americans killed wittnesses or rather hostages of that even will tell you that. Yeah he's crazy, that's another reason why the retoric he spewes is filth.

Wanting them killed and killing them are two sepperate issues. It's not a question of why did he kill those hostages, its a question of why would he want to? As for his religious filth, you don't have to listen to it. It's not like you care about the people there, and its pretty clear "when we muck about over there they come to kill us here". Which is radicly different than the current belief which is "We fight them over there so we dont have to fight them here." If people could just see through that one little piece of double think bullshit, we could weed out the cells or groups, but one thing is for sure untill we made a political presence there they never attacked us here. Perhaps its time to try something new. (actually its quite old. Our "founding fathers" refered to it as non intervention)

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
Sure americans are dieing in iraq but all one has to do is listen to abdenijahd to know the source of it. he calls for volenteers for suicide bombers and tells the world he is training them for just that. a week later suicide bombers start attacking civillian targets in iraq are bombed with suicide bombers. but yet i'm the only one that can make that connection?

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=iran+kills+americans&um=1&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&filter=0&as_drrb=q&as_qdr=w&as_mind=20&as_minm=7&as_maxd=27&as_maxm=7

Yeah according to the press its an all Irans effort now... Just like Iraq was a threat... So you think we should launch a pre-emptive attact on Iran then I assume?

You're right that they are religious and crazy, for the sake of arguement lets assume ten percent of them would be willing to blow themselves up. Then why in world do you want to send our boys and dollars there? Thats the stupided god damn thing I've ever heard. I would say this is a good time to let the region restabilize without our intervention and preferably monetary assistance outside of trade. First we said he had WMD's, negitive. Then we said he had ties to Osama, nope... Then we said the goal was to liberate Iraq, Check. Then it was government and constitution, done and done. AND now its stay the course. Do you see the problem there? The course is a very long term war in multible countries... Another interesting tactic to use history as a guide to.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
Sure we destabilized the region by eliminating the threat of saddam. don't fool yourself that iran wants to truly help. Yea they want to help themselfs to iraq's remaining assets and if they are allowed to take part in the rebuilding of iraq in even the smallest manner there is no hope for iraqi's or the religion they follow. it is a holy war in their eye's has been for centuries.

Once again this does not mean we are better off for interfering. "Yea they want to help themselfs to iraq's remaining assets and if they are allowed to take part in the rebuilding of iraq in even the smallest manner there is no hope for iraqi's or the religion they follow." Yeah right. What are we doing there again? Do you really believe the Iranians would kill followers of the koran in Iraq? Thats again ludicus media double speak. Think this out with me. We have to stay there and kill them both because if we don't they'll kill each other.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
to see where the lines are drawn one only needs to see where the religion originated. shiite=Iran. shiia=iraq. that is the struggle that many see as a civil war in iraq. they share the same koran just they interpret it different omitting any checks and balances. thou shalt not kill, turn the other cheek so on. they might only acknowledge an eye for an eye, and smite them.

Not exactly true...
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060926034306AAswmxj
Yeah I know thats not a good source, but the poster sites sources.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
Much like our debate/arguement it is based on what we believe to be falsehoods and facts. in our arguement about 9/11. you present what you believe to be fact. i dissmiss it and argue it couldn't have occured that way.

Not molten steel or they wouldn't denie its existance now would they? Also WTC7 has many other factors that make the official story or lack thereof a big problem and at least grounds for a new independent reopening of the investigation. You may be right that it was Islamic extreamists, but why didn't norad have escorts on the planes especially the pentagon plane.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
Ahbdinijad dissmisses the fact that hitler even existed and he oppressed and was attempting genocide. he dissmisses it because it is the grounds that we relocated many jews to israel at the end of hitlers reign. We and most of the world agree that hitler did what he did. Now just like our arguement. one is guaranteed to be right. If ahbdinijad is correct than Most of the world that wittnessed the horrors hitler inflicted didn't happen and that would mean that the administration at the time had a few scandles brewing themselfs. However if history is right and hitler did attempt genocide than ahbdinijad is wrong and one would have to question his motive for wanting to rewrite history which brings us back to israel and the jews relocation and armament. Iran is quite transparent in it's intentions.

He's made that quite clear, and I don't doubt him, but why are we dieing, and how successful has he been in his aspirations? I'm quite certain Isreal can take care of themselves and that Iran would no longer be focussed on us if we weren't there. My bottom line with the middle east is trade, thats it, no more no less. Gas is at an all time high, the region is engulfed in chaos unlike ever before. Maybe its time we back off before we over extend ourselves and make one too many enemies.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
Have you ever known an iranian? spent time or worked with an iranian? well I have and they are not pleasant or peacefull.

This post was going so well... ALL Iranians are not pleasant or peacefull?
http://www.flickr.com/groups/iranianbeauty/pool/
http://www.commondreams.org/news2007/0712-04.htm
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/3/C0F677FE-DA4B-440C-9AA6-C0F65ECF2096.html

***http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17049526/site/newsweek/***

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
Iran and china wanting to help? I seen the articles and it is not an ernest attempt to help. Iran for one is and this is no lie "the insurgency" of iraq I forseen that as soon as saddam was captured. China probably for promises of oil and other resources has sided with iran. if iran can get control of iraq they will have the resources of iraq. oil for export to china. It wouldn't suprise me in the least if russia jumps on their bandwagon also offering help lul the so called civil war in iraq which equates to jihad.

Once again though, you're desribing what the US and the UK is doing.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
Sure if our forefathers hadn't meddled in the region we wouldn't be a target today but the current administration had nothing to do with that. However bush has yet again stirred up tension in the region adding a mix of lies and bring additional dishonor as a wedge bieng used to furthur isolate us from the world even if only in the eye's of world opinion.

Our forefathers? You don't mean our founding fathers I hope... We've only been involved since the discovery of oil in the region, and then only militarily since the mid 40's.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-159.html - good article

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
"If Iran takes over Iraq how does that effect you." Drasticly reduces world opinion of the US and threatens everything that we have worked for since we declared independence. we will forever be viewed as weak, fat, and lazy and on top of it we will be a prime target of terrorist attacks.

I think the opposite. To forcably convert the middle east to any form of government is wrong, and will only increase the threat to our country, and polls clearly show the world thinks a great deal less of us due to the invasion in the first place. Go look around no one internationally thinks were "the good guys" except the UK.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
the internal government will become a militant state we will be stripped of liberties.

I think you mean "they'll be stripped of their liberties", but if you did mean us, then open your eyes its already happening. Meantime "they'll" die in the streets. We can't fix this civil war, its not our fight unless we make it ours, and that what is happening. The fight will eventually come here in war planes and not jet liners. Occuping the most chaotic region in the world is not good policy.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
if iran get hold of iraq All our sons and daughters that served our country so valiantly will be tried for war crimes and probably exicuted. They will makeup lies and propaganda stating they found mass graves of iraqi's murdered by our military while we occupied iraq.

There was a discovered mass grave in Falluja pre Iran media blitz. White phosphorus killed every living thing it touched. We tossed roughly 400 bodies in to one big hole.
http://www.thehindu.com/2004/12/21/stories/2004122104311200.htm

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
In reality the mass graves will be a result of irans own designs of genocide. and due to our at the time very low world opinion they will be believed and furthur devistate our world opinion. trade embargo's. economic sanctions and probably the stripping of our right to have and maintain a nuclear arsonal will follow shortly. I cannot re-inforce the importance of staying the course even if it was not the correct or moral thing to do by invading. Iraqi's MUST be capable of defending their own country against an invasion.

You're missing the catch 22 of that statement. If the Iraqis we militarily sovereign, a large portion of them would be killing us for killing so many of them. We're taking guns over there not handing them out. Get real!

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
I don't care if that means we stay for the next 20 years and train iraqi's how to rebuild thier government, country, and military. as well as how to refine and market their resources creating jobs and an economy that will support themselfs. If we pull out now we condemn the iraqi's people to death. Sure it would be easier to throw them to the wolf's. but in this case the repricussions would be world wide but focally pointed at us.

But staying there and killing people, losing soldiers, indentured servitude via oil trade will make us look good!

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
So by all means unjustly accuse the government of staging the 9/11 attacks. Don't forget to discrace us just a little more so we can never repair the damage that one rogue administration has allready did.

Thats who we're accusing. Not the US citizens just the current leaders.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM
Two things may spare us. 
#1 a revolution before bush leaves office. Showing the world that we as a united peoples disagree with what bush did and how he did it.
(FULLY AGREE)
#2 we stay the course in iraq. showing the world that we do care and our willingness to repair damages caused by the bush administration.
(WILL ONLY MAKE US A BIGGER TARGET OVER TIME)
Israel stand steadfast! Do not give in. you will be cut off from trade routes isolating yourself from the industrial world. and yet more of your god given land will be again taken. however they will also again face genocide if they do agree.  :'(   
(Are you calling the Isreali millitary or economy weak?)

Remember those pics I posted those people had families and some of them are wacky extreamists, every person we kill there, we risk unleasing a more dangerous terrorist threat than we have ever seen before.

~Dingus Mungus

P.S. The length is getting crazy now. Can we go back to 1-2 paragraphs maybe 3-4 tops.

Bravo Archon!

Check out http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-159.html if you get the chance. It covers everyone of our millitary encounters with Iran, along with the political backstory. Great post!

~Dingus Mungus

P.S. I think we should all drop this OFF TOPIC stuff. It appears the thread has diverged and I don't want to see this threrad get deleted because its no longer even about 9-11, as I suspect the situation will become.

Quotebut then they are all just the same bunch of islamofascists who want to kill us right?

Now you've got it.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 01:23:33 AM

Quote from: d3adp00l on July 26, 2007, 09:15:41 PMAlright now your talking ring. The truth movement is more than 9/11 for me.I have not said the admin did it, I have only said that they lied about it. And for me what I have seen, combined with what I know, and compared with people I have worked with know, the building went down due to other reasons. I know we disagree on that point, but I would rather not allow the lives lost be for nothing so a sham can be played on the ignorant american public. And you having your belief would rather not allow someone the "use" the deaths for other purposes. But either way it happened, it did happen, and now our gov has given itself power like never before, and has marched on two sovern nations, and they "use" those deaths as the excuse. If you don't like what we believe because it involves those lost lives, how do you feel about how the gov used them. And then discarded it and as a quote "do really think about that much" george b. . We could argue the point all day, fact is I care about your opinion as much as you proly care for mine, but we end up in the same pot of stew. The world is a mess of political BS and we need to clean our house before we do anything else. Any system that becomes too complicated to be well understood, that has become too cumbursome to change, that has become too powerful as to not be afraid of anything, has, in nature, become malicious and needs to be removed and redesigned, problem is the system has a need to sustain itself, and therefore will fight back for its own survival.

I agree we are in the same pot of stew and i don't think that wanting all those lifes to have meant something is wrong. Not only are we in the same stew the result we seek is the same and equally honorable and patriotic. We both want the truth to be known. However only one of us (me or like thinking, vs so called truth movement) is right. I do care about your and others opinion here. What i care most about that it is truthfull and based on fact. Because if you have to lie and decieve to link any part of 9/11 to the administration, than that makes you (meaning the so called truth movement as a whole) just as bad if you have to use the same mechanisms to obtain victory.

You say they lied about 9/11. Well i'd like to know who and what the lie/lies was? In your opinion not the masses opinion. 8) Are they all based on WTC #7? I really want to get to the bottom of this no matter if the result is that i am wrong. I think i bring some strong arguements to the table that may explain away some of the arguements about the towers and #7's colapses. I'm not posting here as a rant or to oppose all that post here i just want to bring the truth out whichever is the truth. To do that both sides of the argument must be presented and acknowledged and taken into close concideration. It has proven nearly impossible to seporate issues not directly related with the issue of 9/11. So far it seems to go into things that are not directly related to 9/11 like the result of occupying iraq. I know and understand that one is the result of the other but in order to gain victory in both you have to just focus on the events of 9/11. If (and that's a big if in my opinion) it was a inside job than it was only used as premis for bush to again invade iraq. And proof of administrative misconduct of authority.

However the chimps house of cards is allready starting to fall. It is my opinion that he started planning his discretions when his father was president. IMHO!  8)

Your arguments have a point to be made, however proof of your (collectively refered to after this) theory and our (collectively refered to after this) theory is hard to come by because there was little if any data gathered after the event. Therefore true to political form there is plausable deniability for either side. MY proof for the two towers lies in my construction experience, knowing the floors can be removed while leaving the superstructure to transfer and bear the load, and knowing that buildings are designed to carry 150% estimated load. And knowing heat generated by hydrocarbons (from fuel reseach) and its affect on steel (i am also a welder/fabricator). The same goes for building 7, I have built highrise buildings and have a very good understanding of the locations used for volatile fuels, and the precautions taken to secure them. Those buildings may have been built in the 70s but have been renovationed and subject to newer codes, which makes the fire stopping and 4hr separations subject to newer regulations. The pentagon is simply the fact that there is no evidence of an airplane, even though there are dozens of cameras that could show us if there was, the pent is the most secure building in the world every inch is under camera. And to add to that norad was stood down from intercepting, that is the largest link to the current admin, everything else could be considered conjucture but the link to norad is proof, someone did not allow the jets to intercept. The last plane is again based off the lack of a plane or the major parts of it, as the coronor said, he stopped being one once he got there because there were no bodies. The lies are thick, from the highjackers that are alive, the announcement that building 7 collapsed before it did, the lies of a connection to osama before we attacked, and the lie that it would be investigated thuroughly and yet the investigators themselves say that they were not allowed to do so.

Here is the craziest conspiracy I have ever heard ;

A man living in a cave in Afghanistan was able to send 19 hijackers to America, where at flight school they learned to planes without landing them (while being under surveillance by the FBI), these hijackers then were able to steal 4 planes without any hijack distress signals being given off and then fly for an hour wildly off the normal flight path without anyone noticing.

They were even able to fly over military bases that have restricted airspace, without anyone caring. (The map showing these bases and the planes flight paths are freely available)

Some of the hijackers flew a plane into the pentagon doing a very difficult last minute banking maneuver. This maneuver was recreated by flight students in a simulator and after 10 attempts each none of them could pull it off. The flight instructor failed on his first 9 attempts and finally got it on the 10th try.

We know the leader of the hijackers because we found his passport with a suicide letter in the rubble of the twin towers. But we didn?t find the airplanes black boxes because they were totally destroyed.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 27, 2007, 04:13:34 AM

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on July 26, 2007, 11:44:45 PM
@ ring

Bad example??? Thats funny even if they were killing each other 5 years ago, it didn't effect us. It wasn't untill we ousted hussien out of office that the country fell in to civil war. So it sounds like a great example to me...

All those other things you listed have killed more people here, than all US terror events combined (foreign and domestic in source). I care much more about those things than I do killing terrorists. As a matter of fact I would say a war on corporate control, would show us dramaticly better results in the US than the war on terror has. A point I applaud you for making...

Now for your other points. If Iran takes over Iraq how does that effect you. To go even further along this logic, Iran has offered to help us keep the country in check along with China. We refused both based on logic simular to yours. Exept our government was worried about control over the oil, money, and politics not the people.

If we stopped building bases in the middle east do think islamic terrorists would still hate us? If we stopped supporting our own outlandish foreign policy, aka maintaining thousands of world wide bases, and alliences with countries like Isreal and the Vadican, Do you think they would still hate us? If we stopped bombing their brothers sisters mother fathers and children do you think they would still hate us?

Unfortunately at this point theres not much we could do to undo this mess, but if we just stopped poking our noses in other countries affairs, then we wouldn't be a target.

Now you'll undoubtably reply about how blood thirsty and dangerous Iran is...
History is a good way of knowing this is bullshit. While the leader of Iran has publicly stated several times he wanted to whipe Isreal off the map, look at the war records... He's never done it or even came close to doing it. Simply put he, like yourself, believes whiping out a whole race of people would be benificial to the world, but can't convince people like me to give our lives to attempt such a ludicous thing. I think your both crazy though. The bottom line is if Iran is dangerous and bloodthirsty, then by ratio based on history, we are far far worse!

~Dingus Mungus

Ok Dingus the images were a bad example of genoside. Ok they was killing eachother 5-10-15-50-100-1000+ years ago Iran and iraq have been at war since sticks and stones were the weapon of choice. Long before the discovery of oil in the region. Since saddam took power and used his WMD's and he had them prior to the first invasion primarily on iran but he occationally used them on other countries. killing hundreds of thousands of people within iraq and iran. There is no doubt that he got the name of bagdad butcher for some reason. so he was no nice guy to begin with. I supported the first invasion simply because saddam forcefully took kuwait. I mind you that saddam was tried and exicuted by his own people for his crimes against humanity. A fate we could only hope for with the chimp and his accomplices.
Civil war hasn't happened in iraq. the violence your seeing is a result of taking the single stabilizing threat from power. saddam was keeping iran in check. Don't believe for one minute iran is a peace loving kind of people. You keep saying "history" like that is your ace in the hole yet you don't seem to be aware of some of their more haneous acts. Like holding the us embassy hostage. and irans current leader was wanting the americans killed wittnesses or rather hostages of that even will tell you that. Yeah he's crazy, that's another reason why the retoric he spewes is filth. Sure americans are dieing in iraq but all one has to do is listen to abdenijahd to know the source of it. he calls for volenteers for suicide bombers and tells the world he is training them for just that. a week later suicide bombers start attacking civillian targets in iraq are bombed with suicide bombers. but yet i'm the only one that can make that connection?

Sure we destabilized the region by eliminating the threat of saddam. don't fool yourself that iran wants to truly help. Yea they want to help themselfs to iraq's remaining assets and if they are allowed to take part in the rebuilding of iraq in even the smallest manner there is no hope for iraqi's or the religion they follow. it is a holy war in their eye's has been for centuries. to see where the lines are drawn one only needs to see where the religion originated. shiite=Iran. shiia=iraq. that is the struggle that many see as a civil war in iraq. they share the same koran just they interpret it different omitting any checks and balances. thou shalt not kill, turn the other cheek so on. they might only acknowledge an eye for an eye, and smite them.

Much like our debate/arguement it is based on what we believe to be falsehoods and facts. in our arguement about 9/11. you present what you believe to be fact. i dissmiss it and argue it couldn't have occured that way. Ahbdinijad dissmisses the fact that hitler even existed and he oppressed and was attempting genocide. he dissmisses it because it is the grounds that we relocated many jews to israel at the end of hitlers reign. We and most of the world agree that hitler did what he did. Now just like our arguement. one is guaranteed to be right. If ahbdinijad is correct than Most of the world that wittnessed the horrors hitler inflicted didn't happen and that would mean that the administration at the time had a few scandles brewing themselfs. However if history is right and hitler did attempt genocide than ahbdinijad is wrong and one would have to question his motive for wanting to rewrite history which brings us back to israel and the jews relocation and armament. Iran is quite transparent in it's intentions. Have you ever known an iranian? spent time or worked with an iranian? well I have and they are not pleasant or peacefull.

Iran and china wanting to help? I seen the articles and it is not an ernest attempt to help. Iran for one is and this is no lie "the insurgency" of iraq I forseen that as soon as saddam was captured. China probably for promises of oil and other resources has sided with iran. if iran can get control of iraq they will have the resources of iraq. oil for export to china. It wouldn't suprise me in the least if russia jumps on their bandwagon also offering help lul the so called civil war in iraq which equates to jihad.

Sure if our forefathers hadn't meddled in the region we wouldn't be a target today but the current administration had nothing to do with that. However bush has yet again stirred up tension in the region adding a mix of lies and bring additional dishonor as a wedge bieng used to furthur isolate us from the world even if only in the eye's of world opinion.

"If Iran takes over Iraq how does that effect you." Drasticly reduces world opinion of the US and threatens everything that we have worked for since we declared independence. we will forever be viewed as weak, fat, and lazy and on top of it we will be a prime target of terrorist attacks. the internal government will become a militant state we will be stripped of liberties. if iran get hold of iraq All our sons and daughters that served our country so valiantly will be tried for war crimes and probably exicuted. They will makeup lies and propaganda stating they found mass graves of iraqi's murdered by our military while we occupied iraq In reality the mass graves will be a result of irans own designs of genocide. and due to our at the time very low world opinion they will be believed and furthur devistate our world opinion. trade embargo's. economic sanctions and probably the stripping of our right to have and maintain a nuclear arsonal will follow shortly. I cannot re-inforce the importance of staying the course even if it was not the correct or moral thing to do by invading. Iraqi's MUST be capable of defending their own country against an invasion.

I don't care if that means we stay for the next 20 years and train iraqi's how to rebuild thier government, country, and military. as well as how to refine and market their resources creating jobs and an economy that will support themselfs. If we pull out now we condemn the iraqi's people to death. Sure it would be easier to throw them to the wolf's. but in this case the repricussions would be world wide but focally pointed at us.

So by all means unjustly accuse the government of staging the 9/11 attacks. Don't forget to discrace us just a little more so we can never repair the damage that one rogue administration has allready did.

Two things may spare us. 
#1 a revolution before bush leaves office. Showing the world that we as a united peoples disagree with what bush did and how he did it.
#2 we stay the course in iraq. showing the world that we do care and our willingness to repair damages caused by the bush administration.

Israel stand steadfast! Do not give in. you will be cut off from trade routes isolating yourself from the industrial world. and yet more of your god given land will be again taken. however they will also again face genocide if they do agree.  :'(   

Sorry ring WMD were not found and there is no evidence of them, therefore not a fact, the admin has flat out said that there are no wmds. And he was tried by the people in power that we have helped to be in power, so I have my doubts. Was he a good guy or a bad guy I honestly have no opinion because I have no solid evidence of either. But I do have evidence of our gov meeting with him and helping him in the past. And as far as the current violence in iraq, if someone bombed my country, regardless of its leader, if someone hurt my family, like what has been done there , I would be pretty mad myself and would more than likely be acting the same way they are. So the people of that area being in a fight really isn't indicative of any one sources influence in my opinion. I really don't know that we have the right to show anyone anything about government and how it should be done. That is the people of that nations choice, not ours, someone should ask them what they want. As a sovern nation they should do what they want, if saddam was a threat, well we took care of that, now its time for them to decide and act. And yes I am sure that I will hear the comments, well the strongest military leader would then just take his place, and our retort to that should be if you do what he did then we will be back, if you do right by your people and nation, good for you. Every form of governmant can be twisted for the wrong purpose, and every government can do a great service for its people, yes I mean all forms can be used for good and evil, just like a gun. It can defend and feed you, but it can also be used against you and against others.

@d3adp00l

your not reading for content. I'm not saying he has and was found with WMD. I'm saying he had WMD's and Used them in the past. I don't think your observations of the iraqi's reaction to our presence and ousting of saddam. they are and were joyfull that we did that. the mindset of we are over there just bombing and attacking the general public would be incorrect. we are currently helping to train iraqi's to take control of their country they have not met benchmarks of accomplisments in fact they barely could get a constitution put together in required time frame. so the iraqi's are dropping the ball on meeting criteria. You can't say "if someone bombed my country" because you cannot walk a mile in their shoes. we got it good here and find it real hard to understand that other countries you could be punished by death for speaking against the govt. lined up and shot for simply following the wrong faith. Have little or no human rights. many of the things some take for granted and others fight hard to keep and maintain. just are not known or enjoyed under some rulers. Saddam was one of those rulers.

"I really don't know that we have the right to show anyone anything about government and how it should be done. That is the people of that nations choice, not ours, someone should ask them what they want. As a sovern nation they should do what they want, if saddam was a threat, well we took care of that, now its time for them to decide and act. And yes I am sure that I will hear the comments, well the strongest military leader would then just take his place, and our retort to that should be if you do what he did then we will be back, if you do right by your people and nation, good for you. Every form of governmant can be twisted for the wrong purpose, and every government can do a great service for its people, yes I mean all forms can be used for good and evil, just like a gun. It can defend and feed you, but it can also be used against you and against others."

Your right it is a question of showing them the basics and who say's we are the best example of them. They are a young country just taking baby steps at freedom they will need more time.

Here's the comment you probably didn't expect, great idea! say here, here's the country defend it and honor it Mess up and we will return at the peoples request and go saddam on your butt. coordinate a 500,000 troop display of power for a few days as a show that even though the world thinks we are weak and spread too thin that we can assemble a sizeable force in a short time and then bug out leaving only the memories.  8) 

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,89811,00.html

Looks like centcom is shaping people's opinion about Afghanistan
and Iraq and most likely 9/11.

It's unbelievable, illegal and treasonous.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3383620,00.html
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3281418,00.html
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Briefs/11062.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,1756461,00.html
http://rawstory.com/news/2006/Ahmadinejad_defends_suicide_bombers_09202006.html
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2944
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=4324
http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/vital_perspective_clarity/2006/09/ahmadinejad_ran.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1454977/posts
http://www.geo.tv/geonews/details.asp?id=3669&param=2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhNyFsYqy-8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FckLO8HcNyo&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21Q4GIAbchw&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ywoLsATW9w&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZDLkLq5MXs&mode=related&search=

real nice guy  ::) talk about promoting genocide!  :o

Quote from: ring_theory on July 28, 2007, 04:20:48 AM
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3383620,00.html
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3281418,00.html
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Briefs/11062.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,1756461,00.html
http://rawstory.com/news/2006/Ahmadinejad_defends_suicide_bombers_09202006.html
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2944
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=4324
http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/vital_perspective_clarity/2006/09/ahmadinejad_ran.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1454977/posts
http://www.geo.tv/geonews/details.asp?id=3669&param=2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhNyFsYqy-8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FckLO8HcNyo&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21Q4GIAbchw&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ywoLsATW9w&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZDLkLq5MXs&mode=related&search=

real nice guy  ::) talk about promoting genocide!  :o

It's no wonder people have such a hysterical twisted perception of Iran when they rely on Ynetnews and neoconservative websites for information.

They make a full time job of mistranslating their enemies speeches and taking things out of context. Consider for example how every time they refer to Iran's leader they also add 'calls for the destruction of Israel'
The actual translated quote was 'the regime occupying jerusalem will disappear from the page of time'
The meaning of those two quotes is very different. The first, fabricated quote means a genocidal destruction of a whole country. The second real quote means the fall of a government/regime.

QuoteAhmadinejad was asked by an NBC journalist how he would feel if his child became a suicide bomber.

Ahmadinejad, who often bounced questions back on his interviewer, asked the reporter what he would like his own son to do.

"What would you like your son to do?" Ahmadinejad said. "Would you like him to defend America? I think you would like that.

"It's the same with our people. If you don't have arms, what would you do? It's not a bad thing. The war was imposed on the Middle East," Ahmadinejad said.

The right wing media took the above quote and ran with it. Another point to make is these middle east leaders refer to any person fighting for their country as a Martyr. But here in the west we translate Martys = suicide bombers. This is another propaganda tool that allows us to translate an entire speech and add more explosive meaning to their words, when they a really refering to something tamer.

http://rawstory.com/news/2006/Ahmadinejad_defends_suicide_bombers_09202006.html
(You sould read this one again...)
"Hundreds of thousands of troops surround us under the pretext of democracy," So they plan to fight back the only way they know how. Point is the crazy man himself has backed up my point in his own words. We are a target because we are there interfering with other nations governments under false pretext. If it was me, I wouldn't blow myslef up, but you better believe I would kill some of the occupiers. If the white house was converted in to the Russian base of opperations, and DC the Russian green zone... You better believe they would have a fight on their hands. An insurgency unlike that which the world has ever seen. Armed angry Americans with god on their side. Do you understand now?

http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/vital_perspective_clarity/2006/09/ahmadinejad_ran.html
(You didn't even read this one did you...)
No one has superiority over others. No individual or states can arrogate to themselves special privileges, nor can they disregard the rights of others and, through influence and pressure, position themselves as the "international community." Citizens of Asia, Africa, Europe and America are all equal. Over six billion inhabitants of the earth are all equal and worthy of respect. Justice and protection of human dignity are the two pillars in maintaining sustainable peace, security and tranquility in the world. It is for this reason that we state: Sustainable peace and tranquility in the world can only be attained through justice, spirituality, ethics, compassion and respect for human dignity.
~Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1454977/posts
I would like to se a transcript of this event... Give me time I'll post it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhNyFsYqy-8
Context... "If that day comes" It's a threat, that if we won't back off then they'll fight us.

Finally heres some links for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mScWWtRfGQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NzB39sVSgs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O5_nA3PStI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykd-syzZ4ZY

~Dingus Mungus

This thread drifts now more and more into actual political
situations.

Could we please stay more ontopic and only report
about new findings what happened at 9/11 ?

Let us find out, what happened to the real planes with the
passengers and who planted the bombs into the WTC towers
and what explosives brought WTC7 down and why was
the falldown of WTC7 already broadcasted 30 minutes before it
actually fell in the BBC broadcast.
Who was responsible for all that...?

These are the most important questions we should try to solve
and then of course, what action should be taken then, when the
truthful answers have been found.. ?

Quote from: hartiberlin on July 29, 2007, 12:56:31 AM
This thread drifts now more and more into actual political
situations.

Could we please stay more ontopic and only report
about new findings what happened at 9/11 ?

Let us find out, what happened to the real planes with the
passengers and who planted the bombs into the WTC towers
and what explosives brought WTC7 down and why was
the falldown of WTC7 already broadcasted 30 minutes before it
actually fell in the BBC broadcast.
Who was responsible for all that...?

These are the most important questions we should try to solve
and then of course, what action should be taken then, when the
truthful answers have been found.. ?

What happened to the planes and passengers? Well the planes were hijacked (by radical terrorists) and flown into pre determined targets by the terrorists that hijacked them. the passengers died as a result of this. There were NO bombs. well other than the planes. Gravity is what ultimately brought the buildings down with the assistance of fire and debris from planes and collapsing buildings in close proximety. I doubt the BBC had crews in NY to film the event live. so they were depending on pre recorded imagery.

Stefan I have great respect and support fully your endevours into overunity. I say BRAVO! However the plea to keep an off (overunity) topic on topic is not becoming of you. I suggest that those that seek answers to 9/11 find them at a site more centered at seeking them. This whole thread detracts from the good we can do here. As well as taking away from researching overunity things.

"Could we please stay more ontopic and only report
about new findings what happened at 9/11..."

Just in case you missed it.

Quote from: lwh on July 29, 2007, 11:33:34 AM
"Could we please stay more ontopic and only report
about new findings what happened at 9/11..."

Just in case you missed it.

I didn't miss it. You changed it. Back stepping??

yes well I am done with ring theory invading a topic that he obiviously doesn't have any reason to post on except to be an antagonist. Again ring you should just leave the topic alone, you have a very closed mind, flat world opinion on the subject in the topic, and your only goal seems to be to get rid of it. If you want to diminish the experience of some users on the forum by being disruptive, then I find that I don't particularly like your contributions at all. And no longer value your opinion. Had you posted your thought discussed them and agreed to have your opinion and we have ours then I would still value what you had to say. But you have gone beyond that to nearly violent protest of the subject at all, it seems to me that YOU have a problem with it not the rest of us. Its your show Stephen but I feel, as too many times I do, that a mainstream concept is simply trying to quiet a contradictory opinion. And as far as off topic? To me the same reasons those building were attacked (doesn't matter who did it), that war is being fought, that people are oppressed, etc, are the reasons I even bother looking into O/U and spend time researching looking for an answer. I can tell you right now that it is not for personal gain of any kind, because when it really comes down to it, if I ever figured anything out, I most certainly wouldn't put my name to it, I would not try to profit from it. Those are the actions that get you killed.

And on top of that I could find a dozen topics that are not really o/u but are still on the forum, why does this one dig at ring theory so much, what is your problem with free speech ring?

Quote from: ring_theory on July 29, 2007, 10:26:52 AM
What happened to the planes and passengers?

Smashed in to buildings... Dead in short.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 29, 2007, 10:26:52 AM
Well the planes were hijacked (by radical terrorists) and flown into pre determined targets by the terrorists that hijacked them.

Well thats debated, as half the terrorists were either already dead or still alive, many of the other terrorists have still never publicly been confirmed to have boarded the plane. Do you see the problem here. Why don't they show us the airport security cams of people getting on the plane. At least then we would have faces and a manefest. Perhaps figure out how these people who are still alive were accussed of commiting this act. Some closure of some sort... A way to remove doubt that doesn't weaken the country or embolden the terrorists. Just something more than words from an untrustworthy administration.

As for the targets being pre determined your absolutely right about that. Ironicly there were excerises being preformed by the CIA DOD and NORAD involving useing planes as missles to attack... Well I bet you could guess what the targets were. Now this info was either leaked by our defense agencies anf the terrorists took advantage, or it was a distaction counted on by both sides. All that matters to me is the families of the 9-11 victims want a new investigation! The current report is full of holes and you've concieded this point before.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 29, 2007, 10:26:52 AM
There were NO bombs. well other than the planes. Gravity is what ultimately brought the buildings down with the assistance of fire and debris from planes and collapsing buildings in close proximety. I doubt the BBC had crews in NY to film the event live. so they were depending on pre recorded imagery.

Thats funny over 100 people at ground zero have come out reporting they heard explosions. People recieved phone calls where their loved ones described explosions. THERE IS VIDEO OF EXPLOSIONS. Our opinions on the subject is just that... Eye witnesses saw it! People have it on video! It's in seismology graphs!!! It's not a debate!

Quote from: ring_theory on July 29, 2007, 10:26:52 AM
Stefan I have great respect and support fully your endevours into overunity. I say BRAVO! However the plea to keep an off (overunity) topic on topic is not becoming of you. I suggest that those that seek answers to 9/11 find them at a site more centered at seeking them. This whole thread detracts from the good we can do here. As well as taking away from researching overunity things.

We were posting video and news evidence.
It only distacted me minimally untill recently.

~Dingus Mungus

look at this vid at around 7:50 in...
what are those series of f flashes?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5474006551011489413&q

Quote from: d3adp00l on July 29, 2007, 08:19:08 PM
yes well I am done with ring theory invading a topic that he obiviously doesn't have any reason to post on except to be an antagonist. Again ring you should just leave the topic alone, you have a very closed mind, flat world opinion on the subject in the topic, and your only goal seems to be to get rid of it. If you want to diminish the experience of some users on the forum by being disruptive, then I find that I don't particularly like your contributions at all. And no longer value your opinion. Had you posted your thought discussed them and agreed to have your opinion and we have ours then I would still value what you had to say. But you have gone beyond that to nearly violent protest of the subject at all, it seems to me that YOU have a problem with it not the rest of us. Its your show Stephen but I feel, as too many times I do, that a mainstream concept is simply trying to quiet a contradictory opinion. And as far as off topic? To me the same reasons those building were attacked (doesn't matter who did it), that war is being fought, that people are oppressed, etc, are the reasons I even bother looking into O/U and spend time researching looking for an answer. I can tell you right now that it is not for personal gain of any kind, because when it really comes down to it, if I ever figured anything out, I most certainly wouldn't put my name to it, I would not try to profit from it. Those are the actions that get you killed.

And on top of that I could find a dozen topics that are not really o/u but are still on the forum, why does this one dig at ring theory so much, what is your problem with free speech ring?

"nearly violent protest"?   I object!  "mainstream concept is simply trying to quiet a contradictory opinion" Now isn't that what your trying to do to me on this subject and my contradictory opinion??? What was the reason those buildings was attacked?? I was thinking it was an attempt to destabilize our economy? My goals are not meant to be disruptive. I'm not seeking for anyone to like my contributions either on this thread or this forum. If you think it's going to hurt my feelings that you don't your sadly mistaken. This thread is disruptive if anything. it would be in comparison to posting OU or free energy things on a 9/11 forum, Off topic. I have nothing against free speech in fact if you havn't noticed i'm exercizing it in this thread. Seemingly to your and others dislike. Isn't it great the power of the first ammendment?

Why cannot I discuss the so called "9/11 truth movement"? I mean really I only see one side to this discussion (those that support it). Where is the objective point of view? Can I not pose it? Can I not answer some of the questions posed? Why because they contridict the general opinion? I have to jump on the band wagon no questions asked? I find the resulting answers within the 9/11 truth movement highly questionable and more like fabrication based on a wanting desire for the administration to have orchistrated it. There is two things i dislike about this thread and information contained within. #1 It is off topic and #2 it is filled with speculative reasoning based on lies, misrepresented observations, denial of facts/contributing factors, and unrealistic comparisons represented as observations.  ::)

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on July 29, 2007, 08:26:04 PM

Quote from: ring_theory on July 29, 2007, 10:26:52 AM
What happened to the planes and passengers?

Smashed in to buildings... Dead in short.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 29, 2007, 10:26:52 AM
Well the planes were hijacked (by radical terrorists) and flown into pre determined targets by the terrorists that hijacked them.

Well thats debated, as half the terrorists were either already dead or still alive, many of the other terrorists have still never publicly been confirmed to have boarded the plane. Do you see the problem here. Why don't they show us the airport security cams of people getting on the plane. At least then we would have faces and a manefest. Perhaps figure out how these people who are still alive were accussed of commiting this act. Some closure of some sort... A way to remove doubt that doesn't weaken the country or embolden the terrorists. Just something more than words from an untrustworthy administration.

As for the targets being pre determined your absolutely right about that. Ironicly there were excerises being preformed by the CIA DOD and NORAD involving useing planes as missles to attack... Well I bet you could guess what the targets were. Now this info was either leaked by our defense agencies anf the terrorists took advantage, or it was a distaction counted on by both sides. All that matters to me is the families of the 9-11 victims want a new investigation! The current report is full of holes and you've concieded this point before.

Quote from: ring_theory on July 29, 2007, 10:26:52 AM
There were NO bombs. well other than the planes. Gravity is what ultimately brought the buildings down with the assistance of fire and debris from planes and collapsing buildings in close proximety. I doubt the BBC had crews in NY to film the event live. so they were depending on pre recorded imagery.

Thats funny over 100 people at ground zero have come out reporting they heard explosions. People recieved phone calls where their loved ones described explosions. THERE IS VIDEO OF EXPLOSIONS. Our opinions on the subject is just that... Eye witnesses saw it! People have it on video! It's in seismology graphs!!! It's not a debate!

Quote from: ring_theory on July 29, 2007, 10:26:52 AM
Stefan I have great respect and support fully your endevours into overunity. I say BRAVO! However the plea to keep an off (overunity) topic on topic is not becoming of you. I suggest that those that seek answers to 9/11 find them at a site more centered at seeking them. This whole thread detracts from the good we can do here. As well as taking away from researching overunity things.

We were posting video and news evidence.
It only distacted me minimally untill recently.

~Dingus Mungus

Quote from: ring_theory on July 29, 2007, 10:26:52 AM
What happened to the planes and passengers?

"Smashed in to buildings... Dead in short."

That was stefans question but thanks for the assistance in answering it.  ;D

The lists inaccuracy proves only one thing that the other half were unknown. I agree they should release the tapes and eventually will declassify them. However alot of times these recording systems and tape maintenence or replacement often gets neglected. the result of recording over the same vhs tape several times makes any real definition impossible. They may not have good video to present or make educated guesses at who was the terrorists boarding. the manifests would be a plus but nothing definitive could really come of it. fact is that the terrorists might not have boarded as a passenger they may have boarded as pilot or co pilot etc. I understand wanting closure via answers to your questions and not by the lieing administration either. I respect that but to accept the first answer that comes along that fits the description would be erronious. This is where it would pay to investigate it yourself. By asking questions and think about the answers look over the footage, dig into what you know about the physics of the situation. Make comparisons with simular structures such as the implosion vs collapse. You still question what or that people that survived or heard loved ones explaining explosions. I have tried to explain that impacts and shearing metal sound simular to explosions. Which are plausable explainations given the events that day. 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5474006551011489413&q I watched this video a few times since I started posting to this thread. the one annoying thing is the audio but it may be a redeming quality if we focus on it. I know that explosions were reported during #7's collapse get the best audio you can from it's collapse (implosion?) take the audio and compare it to a building bieng imploded audio track. Don't take my word for it. it wouldn't hurt to get your hands dirty doing a side by side comparison. would it? hell the seismology results could be added as comparison. has anyone did that?

I think a new investigation would be a fresh bit of air on the subject. However would it be enough? Would all the holes be filled? Would ALL available facts be put into the investigation and be focus of that investigation? If the investigators concluded that the collapse was the result of events leading up to it spawning from the original event of planes flown into towers 1 and 2. Would you and the rest of the truth movement accept that? I doubt it! The investigators would be accused of taking a bribe or some other scandle would erupt as a result. And yet another investigation would be demanded. that would cycle untill the masses get the answers they want. unfortunately i believe those would be the investigating team that took the bribe or was encased in scandle.   

Quote from: ring_theory on July 30, 2007, 01:35:47 AM


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5474006551011489413&q
I watched this video a few times since I started posting to this thread.

At 12:22 the girl says:
It was a millitary plane !

So as she was the eye witness, but they unfortunately cut the scene out,
where the millitary plane crashed into the second WTC, at least
they said a few seconds later , that it was not a normal plane but a millitary plane !

So the question remains,
what happened to the original planes and the people in there ?

Was one plane really , as in the movie Loose Change told, was flown
to Ohio airport and brought to a hangar there ?
What happened to the passengers then ?

What happened to the plane, that "officially" went into the
Pentagon ( which was indeed a missile) and the people in there ?

Is there somehow a current video of the allieged terrorists which
are said still to be still alive, so we can verify this ?
Then the theory of terrorists would not make any sense at all...

Quote from: hartiberlin on July 30, 2007, 01:58:02 AM

Quote from: ring_theory on July 30, 2007, 01:35:47 AM


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5474006551011489413&q
I watched this video a few times since I started posting to this thread.

At 12:22 the girl says:
It was a millitary plane !

So as she was the eye witness, but they unfortunately cut the scene out,
where the millitary plane crashed into the second WTC, at least
they said a few seconds later , that it was not a normal plane but a millitary plane !

So the question remains,
what happened to the original planes and the people in there ?

Was one plane really , as in the movie Loose Change told, was flown
to Ohio airport and brought to a hangar there ?
What happened to the passengers then ?

What happened to the plane, that "officially" went into the
Pentagon ( which was indeed a missile) and the people in there ?

Karl Schwarz claims that the plane was a 737 as opposed to the offical story stating that it was a 767.
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=3043

I think it was a plane that hit the pentagon, although who could tell from the clipping job they pulled on that video.  The mere fact they took out frames should raise a flag.  The "PentaCon" did a good job investigating the pentagon strike.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5296595694237574426

I think flight 93 was shot down as Rumsfeld says, even though this is a supposed mistake in his speach.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7171005197553914151

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZekosYOmXc&mode=related&search=

I find this quote interesting from Bush-

"I was sitting outside the classroom, waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower, the tv was obviously on, I used to fly myself, and I said there's one terrible pilot."  I guess at this school they have tv screens outside..  Terrible pilot? Come on...You would have to be on crack to fly an airliner into the wtc building on accident...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm73wOuPL60&mode=related&search=

Quote from: ring_theory on July 29, 2007, 10:32:46 PM

Quote from: d3adp00l on July 29, 2007, 08:19:08 PM
yes well I am done with ring theory invading a topic that he obiviously doesn't have any reason to post on except to be an antagonist. Again ring you should just leave the topic alone, you have a very closed mind, flat world opinion on the subject in the topic, and your only goal seems to be to get rid of it. If you want to diminish the experience of some users on the forum by being disruptive, then I find that I don't particularly like your contributions at all. And no longer value your opinion. Had you posted your thought discussed them and agreed to have your opinion and we have ours then I would still value what you had to say. But you have gone beyond that to nearly violent protest of the subject at all, it seems to me that YOU have a problem with it not the rest of us. Its your show Stephen but I feel, as too many times I do, that a mainstream concept is simply trying to quiet a contradictory opinion. And as far as off topic? To me the same reasons those building were attacked (doesn't matter who did it), that war is being fought, that people are oppressed, etc, are the reasons I even bother looking into O/U and spend time researching looking for an answer. I can tell you right now that it is not for personal gain of any kind, because when it really comes down to it, if I ever figured anything out, I most certainly wouldn't put my name to it, I would not try to profit from it. Those are the actions that get you killed.

And on top of that I could find a dozen topics that are not really o/u but are still on the forum, why does this one dig at ring theory so much, what is your problem with free speech ring?

"nearly violent protest"?   I object!  "mainstream concept is simply trying to quiet a contradictory opinion" Now isn't that what your trying to do to me on this subject and my contradictory opinion??? What was the reason those buildings was attacked?? I was thinking it was an attempt to destabilize our economy? My goals are not meant to be disruptive. I'm not seeking for anyone to like my contributions either on this thread or this forum. If you think it's going to hurt my feelings that you don't your sadly mistaken. This thread is disruptive if anything. it would be in comparison to posting OU or free energy things on a 9/11 forum, Off topic. I have nothing against free speech in fact if you havn't noticed i'm exercizing it in this thread. Seemingly to your and others dislike. Isn't it great the power of the first ammendment?

Why cannot I discuss the so called "9/11 truth movement"? I mean really I only see one side to this discussion (those that support it). Where is the objective point of view? Can I not pose it? Can I not answer some of the questions posed? Why because they contridict the general opinion? I have to jump on the band wagon no questions asked? I find the resulting answers within the 9/11 truth movement highly questionable and more like fabrication based on a wanting desire for the administration to have orchistrated it. There is two things i dislike about this thread and information contained within. #1 It is off topic and #2 it is filled with speculative reasoning based on lies, misrepresented observations, denial of facts/contributing factors, and unrealistic comparisons represented as observations.  ::)

Ring I would like to remind you to please stay on topic here, the voting clearly shows what people want. So I would either post some evidence of an opinion, that is not opinion in itself. Or a verifiable quote or some other news release. The point of the topic is clear.

Quote from: hartiberlin on July 30, 2007, 01:58:02 AM

Quote from: ring_theory on July 30, 2007, 01:35:47 AM


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5474006551011489413&q
I watched this video a few times since I started posting to this thread.

At 12:22 the girl says:
It was a millitary plane !

So as she was the eye witness, but they unfortunately cut the scene out,
where the millitary plane crashed into the second WTC, at least
they said a few seconds later , that it was not a normal plane but a millitary plane !

So the question remains,
what happened to the original planes and the people in there ?

Was one plane really , as in the movie Loose Change told, was flown
to Ohio airport and brought to a hangar there ?
What happened to the passengers then ?

What happened to the plane, that "officially" went into the
Pentagon ( which was indeed a missile) and the people in there ?

Is there somehow a current video of the allieged terrorists which
are said still to be still alive, so we can verify this ?
Then the theory of terrorists would not make any sense at all...

Not much evidence in the plane area unfortunatly. For an accounting, we can only confirm (by video) that two planes were really even destroyed, and what or where those planes where is something up for debate. There is no hard evidence that they were or were not airliners. 4 planes of course are supposed to be missing, however 93 and 77 as has been shown on many videos to be still listed as viable aircraft. That being the case rule 2 of the 4 out as being missing, one thing I know about big business is that they don't make mistakes when it comes to insurance claims, we would be lucky if they didn't try to say that 4 other planes were damaged from fear. So 2 planes left missing, but we also have two planes that landed in Chicago. Ever seen the game with three cups and a ball under one of them? There is a number of newer small airlines in operation nowadays, who sometimes buy used planes from the larger fleets. Theres also a number of businesses that have ties as possible fronts for other agencies.

As far as the people who were supposedly on the planes, good question, WHERE ARE THEY, they weren't in the field of penns., or embedded into the pentagon, and judging from the impacts at the towers, they proly weren't there either. I say the last for these reasons, given the amount of flame that exited the towers after impact, it would be clear that glass and obstruction was cleaned out of the way as the flame front propagated out of the building. Knowing something of inertia (as disturbing as it sounds no pleasure is taken in mentioning it) why didn't some of the passengers get thrown out of the building? how about chairs, or luggage, we didn't hear of any of those parts being found at the site. In addition many of us have seen the pictures of people standing in the holes made by the planes, if the bodies didn't leave the building then they where still in there, and these people didn't come from the impact site, so they must have made their way through the flame and debris, and through dead charred people. I don't think that most people, especially office women have the stomach to go through that and stand at the hole for some air.

So I would say this, I have not seen any credible evidence, that would hold up in a court room, that those people were on the two planes, and even less evidence that the other two incidences were even planes. I would find it very interesting to look at the air traffic at the time of the two planes supposed takeoff, and I would like to track planes before after and during the events, a transponder isn't that hard to change plane id. Where did all of the planes that took off from Dulles land, and who got off them.

Quote from: d3adp00l on July 30, 2007, 02:11:27 PM

Quote from: ring_theory on July 29, 2007, 10:32:46 PM

Quote from: d3adp00l on July 29, 2007, 08:19:08 PM
yes well I am done with ring theory invading a topic that he obiviously doesn't have any reason to post on except to be an antagonist. Again ring you should just leave the topic alone, you have a very closed mind, flat world opinion on the subject in the topic, and your only goal seems to be to get rid of it. If you want to diminish the experience of some users on the forum by being disruptive, then I find that I don't particularly like your contributions at all. And no longer value your opinion. Had you posted your thought discussed them and agreed to have your opinion and we have ours then I would still value what you had to say. But you have gone beyond that to nearly violent protest of the subject at all, it seems to me that YOU have a problem with it not the rest of us. Its your show Stephen but I feel, as too many times I do, that a mainstream concept is simply trying to quiet a contradictory opinion. And as far as off topic? To me the same reasons those building were attacked (doesn't matter who did it), that war is being fought, that people are oppressed, etc, are the reasons I even bother looking into O/U and spend time researching looking for an answer. I can tell you right now that it is not for personal gain of any kind, because when it really comes down to it, if I ever figured anything out, I most certainly wouldn't put my name to it, I would not try to profit from it. Those are the actions that get you killed.

And on top of that I could find a dozen topics that are not really o/u but are still on the forum, why does this one dig at ring theory so much, what is your problem with free speech ring?

"nearly violent protest"?   I object!  "mainstream concept is simply trying to quiet a contradictory opinion" Now isn't that what your trying to do to me on this subject and my contradictory opinion??? What was the reason those buildings was attacked?? I was thinking it was an attempt to destabilize our economy? My goals are not meant to be disruptive. I'm not seeking for anyone to like my contributions either on this thread or this forum. If you think it's going to hurt my feelings that you don't your sadly mistaken. This thread is disruptive if anything. it would be in comparison to posting OU or free energy things on a 9/11 forum, Off topic. I have nothing against free speech in fact if you havn't noticed i'm exercizing it in this thread. Seemingly to your and others dislike. Isn't it great the power of the first ammendment?

Why cannot I discuss the so called "9/11 truth movement"? I mean really I only see one side to this discussion (those that support it). Where is the objective point of view? Can I not pose it? Can I not answer some of the questions posed? Why because they contridict the general opinion? I have to jump on the band wagon no questions asked? I find the resulting answers within the 9/11 truth movement highly questionable and more like fabrication based on a wanting desire for the administration to have orchistrated it. There is two things i dislike about this thread and information contained within. #1 It is off topic and #2 it is filled with speculative reasoning based on lies, misrepresented observations, denial of facts/contributing factors, and unrealistic comparisons represented as observations.  ::)

Ring I would like to remind you to please stay on topic here, the voting clearly shows what people want. So I would either post some evidence of an opinion, that is not opinion in itself. Or a verifiable quote or some other news release. The point of the topic is clear.

OK MOM!  :o

Quote from: hartiberlin on July 30, 2007, 01:58:02 AM

Quote from: ring_theory on July 30, 2007, 01:35:47 AM


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5474006551011489413&q
I watched this video a few times since I started posting to this thread.

At 12:22 the girl says:
It was a millitary plane !

So as she was the eye witness, but they unfortunately cut the scene out,
where the millitary plane crashed into the second WTC, at least
they said a few seconds later , that it was not a normal plane but a millitary plane !

So the question remains,
what happened to the original planes and the people in there ?

Was one plane really , as in the movie Loose Change told, was flown
to Ohio airport and brought to a hangar there ?
What happened to the passengers then ?

What happened to the plane, that "officially" went into the
Pentagon ( which was indeed a missile) and the people in there ?

Is there somehow a current video of the allieged terrorists which
are said still to be still alive, so we can verify this ?
Then the theory of terrorists would not make any sense at all...

Ok Stefan i better understand now why this thread has been allowed to fester on this forum and why the poll is biased at best. You have questions and doubts. First if you want me to leave the forum all you have to do is ask me, I'll go quietly.

I was more wanting to present audio of tower 1 as it collapsed and to present audio that may clear up the explosives theory. However as usual everyone concintrated on what was said, instead of what sounds came from the street. Just because the wittness said it was a military plane does not make it such. wittness reliability is at best unreliable. What plane was she talking about? the one that hit tower one or tower two? Was she talking about the planes that hit the towers while seeing a military plane or helicopter in the distance and confusing her words? there are many questions that can be posed based on an emotional responce. to address them without research would be what is fueling the whole truth movement. You hear her say a military plane, you then deduct thet that fits with the general theme of the truth movement. So you conclude that they are the wittnesses and it must be fact. Again, wittness reliability is at best unreliable. 

There is plenty of imagery out there on 9/11 all of which pose a plithora of questions as well as answers if your really looking. they couldn't have seen the plane that well. given the speed of the plane on impact it would have went from a dot in the sky to imact in a matter of seconds. in that time it would be nearly impossible to define what color it was let alone type of plane. We have to rely on other footage to confirm that it was not a military plane. I doubt that they seen the plane that impacted tower one either. If they did, it would have been nothing more than a fleeting glimpse.

"what happened to the original planes and the people in there ?"

Stefan as tragic as it is They are no more. destroyed on impact lifes and equipment alike. Untill evidence is provided that they are still alive. we must assume they are dead.

There was alot of planes bieng landed and shuffeled out of the way. Flight traffic was suspended. all aeroplanes were to immediatly land at the nearest air field.

"What happened to the plane, that "officially" went into the
Pentagon ( which was indeed a missile) and the people in there ?"

Destroyed on impact. the whole face of the pentagon is bomb resistant and the structures pentigon shape is among the "golden section" in mathematics. It is in all intentional means designed as a fortress would be. there are many support columns that effectively dispursed the impacts energy shredding the plane. any remaining bits would have been reduced to molten form in the resulting fire. A missle of modern warfare would have did more damage it is designed as a delivery vessel for explosives as explosives are more volitile than fuels alone. There would have been a crater where the pentagon section was.

There was no survivors and untill confirmation that there is we can only assume there was none. 

"Is there somehow a current video of the allieged terrorists which
are said still to be still alive, so we can verify this ?
Then the theory of terrorists would not make any sense at all..."   

That's an interesting question. However there was not enough of the real terrorists left to make a positive identification. how does Knowing who isn't the piloting terrorist help us to determine who was the piloting terrorist? Knowing my governments efficiency the list was hap hazardly thrown together from a list of suspects that fit certain criteria. I believe that even then if say half or even 1/3 of the list is correct it would suprise me. But still i cannot see enough evidence pointing in the direction of condemning the government as of yet.

8)

@ Ringtheory -

Some questions you perhaps could answer.

Edit 1. What is your opinion on the war games perfomed by the military on 9/11?

2. What is your opinion on the ash samples taken from the wtc site which contained traces of thermate?

3. Why did they only release 5 frames from the pentagon video?  Why has the Sheraton Hotel video never been released?

4. Whats your take on the FBI find no solid evidence that Bin Laden had anything to do with 9/11?

http://www.keenefreepress.com/mambo/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=210&

5.  What is your opinion about the pentacon video?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5296595694237574426

Doubts?  Oh ya...

@ring_theory
Did you ever watch Loose Change and all the other videos
that are linked in the postings in this thread ?
Probably not...

Quote from: hartiberlin on July 30, 2007, 11:29:05 PM
@ring_theory
Did you ever watch Loose Change and all the other videos
that are linked in the postings in this thread ?
Probably not...

anything before i posted to this thread i havn't viewed. but since i started every link has been viewed. am viewing the loose change now.

The missing air planes are a question of conjecture, there is no physical evidence of what planes actually hit the towers. I love it when people's first question is "what happened to the planes then? huh". Well no one really can say now can they, and that takes nothing away from the physical provable evidence of the incidents. I still want to know how many planes went over the Alantic Ocean that day and how many touched down.

Quote from: Freezer on July 30, 2007, 11:19:30 PM
@ Ringtheory -

Some questions you perhaps could answer.

Edit 1. What is your opinion on the war games perfomed by the military on 9/11?

2. What is your opinion on the ash samples taken from the wtc site which contained traces of thermate?

3. Why did they only release 5 frames from the pentagon video?  Why has the Sheraton Hotel video never been released?

4. Whats your take on the FBI find no solid evidence that Bin Laden had anything to do with 9/11?

http://www.keenefreepress.com/mambo/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=210&

5.  What is your opinion about the pentacon video?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5296595694237574426

Doubts?  Oh ya...

#1 Interresting coincidence given the turn of events that fatefilled day. But not conclusive that it was a real life scenario bieng played out in real time. It is obvious that the government had intel that an attack was imminent and 9/11 was the date it was supposed to happen. and i recall that the govt was warned atleast 2 weeks prior to 9/11.

#2 the trace presence of thermate in samples. was it a controlled study? What labs did it? could have the sample been tampered with or mixed with other samples?

#3 I doubt there was more than 5 "frames" that showed anything other than the building and grass whisking in the breeze. I highly doubt that it was high speed equiptment. The hotel camera same way. The camera appears to be pointing down at the hotel so i doubt it caught much in the way of aircraft.

#4 How can they gain conviction without evidence? No evidence no indictment. A check and balance by the DOJ that is supposed to keep the innocent from bieng unjustly convicted.

#5 Makes a few good points, a few assumptions, and presented a few facts, and omitted a few facts. Like the lightpole thing they are designed to break away on impact. 

The FBI says that Osama Bin Laden is not wanted for the 9/11 attacks, and that there is no evidence he was involved. (He is wanted for a whole heap of other terrorist incidents though)

The reason? This is the FBI's way of saying that they believe the 9/11 attacks were perpetrated by someone else.
They couldn't just come out and say it as they would be made to look like fools by the administration, so this is an underhanded way of going about it.

There are still some patriots left in US intel at least.

Just for the record light poles are designed for anything but to break away.

Quote from: d3adp00l on July 31, 2007, 07:53:37 PM
Just for the record light poles are designed for anything but to break away.

Ok if you say so. They are breakaway. You may be referring to utility poles?  8)

signs are designed to break. type 31, or slipbase poles are designed not to break the bolts but are still not necessarily designed to break. they are designed with a weakness but only compared to the main body of the pole. The amount of force the poles are designed to endure it pretty stout, but the concrete is designed strong than the pole and the main body is over designed for the forces involved. Saying that those designed specs are to "break away" is miss leading. It would be more accurate to say that the anchor bolts, and main body are overly engineered, and the base is designed to withstand high wind, most impacts, earthquakes, and natural harmonics of vibration. Like I said the base is simply weaker than the body and the concrete/rebar anchor system.

The more interesting aspect is, regardless of the breakage, how much damage would be inflicted onto an aircraft that impacted them hard enough to break them. The point of impact would have invariably involved at least one wing, which would involve fuel, so if a plane hit them were are them parts of the plane that would have been ripped off. The luminares would have acted like hooks in the skin and insides of the plane, wheres the damage to the heads, and the parts on the road.

Now if you needed a clear flight path through the poles, could they be "popped" at the base. sure.

Long thread. Not sure if these were mentioned before, but here are a couple of pics from the wtc right after the collapse, and some info on video tapes covering the pentagon incident.

Some interesting evidence, thermite residue? or?
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rumormillnews.com%2Fpix3%2Fpic87970.jpg&hash=af162a2d0429ea680c42d2509f938e63999e3ba8)

Note the above pic is at street level
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rumormillnews.com%2Fpix3%2Fpic87932.jpg&hash=f665e931eaa2afe3e1860342bd349b016d2a0905)

It looks like a clear 45 deg cut on one of the huge main support columns needed to facilitate collapse? It would indicate intense localized heat, look at the molten steel residue and the cut. Basically straight lines at 45 deg angle while the rest of the column is basically intact. 

Also bombs alert as recorded by the firefighters:
Fireman: ?bomb in the building start clearing out?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4574366633014832928&q=9%2F11%20bomb

Draw your own conclusions...



Another interesting subtopic, is the great number of video tapes (80+)? that were covering the pentagon incident. Also keep in mind that the Virginia DOT right across the street is/was covering the area 24/7. Not to mention the many tapes from reporters and hotel cameras near by, seized immediately after the incident and not released after so many years.

"government's denial to FOIA request for the 85 video recordings related to flight 77"
http://www.flight77.info/00new/n85reply.jpg
http://www.flight77.info/documents.htm

If the tapes show flight 77 hitting the building, it would only strengthen the govt?s position. Why not disclose it after so many years? What?s there to hide anymore?

Anyway, these subjects of discussion can get heated and polarize many people.
Hopefully, and eventually the details will come out, however it may happen at a time where it most likely will not matter anymore?

Ok back to researching physics and OU developments

And of course a collapsing building causes its main support collumns to be cut by heat leaving melted iron behind, it would have to cause nice flat and angled cuts right? And it would do this because of the tremendous heat caused by friction, ya thats it.

If a real investigation had been done we would know just about everything those buildings went through. almost every piece of steel was unique to its location in the building therefore the whole thing could have been laid out and examined. And for the first time that I know of our officials took the "well its obvious what happened, we don't have to look too hard" approach. Well maybe not the first time, JFK was one of those times, flight 800 (pretty sure thats what it was called).

Quote from: mikestocks2006 on August 01, 2007, 09:51:11 AM
Long thread. Not sure if these were mentioned before, but here are a couple of pics from the wtc right after the collapse, and some info on video tapes covering the pentagon incident.

Some interesting evidence, thermite residue? or?
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rumormillnews.com%2Fpix3%2Fpic87970.jpg&hash=af162a2d0429ea680c42d2509f938e63999e3ba8)

Note the above pic is at street level
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rumormillnews.com%2Fpix3%2Fpic87932.jpg&hash=f665e931eaa2afe3e1860342bd349b016d2a0905)

It looks like a clear 45 deg cut on one of the huge main support columns needed to facilitate collapse? It would indicate intense localized heat, look at the molten steel residue and the cut. Basically straight lines at 45 deg angle while the rest of the column is basically intact. 

Also bombs alert as recorded by the firefighters:
Fireman: ?bomb in the building start clearing out?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4574366633014832928&q=9%2F11%20bomb

Draw your own conclusions...



Another interesting subtopic, is the great number of video tapes (80+)? that were covering the pentagon incident. Also keep in mind that the Virginia DOT right across the street is/was covering the area 24/7. Not to mention the many tapes from reporters and hotel cameras near by, seized immediately after the incident and not released after so many years.

"government's denial to FOIA request for the 85 video recordings related to flight 77"
http://www.flight77.info/00new/n85reply.jpg
http://www.flight77.info/documents.htm

If the tapes show flight 77 hitting the building, it would only strengthen the govt?s position. Why not disclose it after so many years? What?s there to hide anymore?

Anyway, these subjects of discussion can get heated and polarize many people.
Hopefully, and eventually the details will come out, however it may happen at a time where it most likely will not matter anymore?

Ok back to researching physics and OU developments

Which of the WTC is this? I'll tell you now that that is no cut using a gas axe. there wouldn't be that much molten as the axe would blow most of it from the object bieng cut. the molten ripples on the left side appear to be in a V form. this would be nearly impossible to do with a gas axe unless it was also cut from the inside. otherwise it would just be a strait through cut.

Yes he clearly said there is a bomb. where was this footage taken? What building was he referring to? was there a threat called in? It would make good sense to evacuate if there was a bomb threat and i Imagine it would have been taken seriously.

The confiscated footage will eventually be declassified in about 16 years. 8(

I can't tell which tower that photo is of, but would it really matter which one it is... But I can tell from the video that they are clearing building 7 as the dust is too settled to be waiting for the second tower to collapse. Also you can tell by the shadows in downtown NYC, that it was roughly noon, which is when they cleared building 7. I hate to ruin this, but does that cut beam at least start to make our case? You seemed especially noteful of the thermate viens. Any further comments on that picture or possible cutting devices?

~Dingus Mungus

I would guess that the pic was taken days after the collapse. I have seen a lot of cuttin tools in my time but none that would cut 4" thick steel on one pass. I notice that there seems to be a lack of photo evidence of the remains of the buildings, or the remains being removed. Sure there are some overall site photos, but ones like thing seem to be rare. Anyone else notice that also? Personally I feel insulted that we were all fed a line of bull so quickly, and that what happened was "used" to milk the cow a little more.

(http://torch.jpg)

This is a picture from December 15, 2001. Notice the man cutting beams with a torch for removal.

I find it odd that the beams and steel are rusted in the "thermite" picture, and that there is no dust.  I guess that particular area wasn't coated with grey dust like the rest of the city was "right after" 9/11.

Some good new amazing articles to look at.

Digitally doctoring Al-Qaeda Video tapes by the pentagon by IntelCenter.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2007/020807tapesdoctored.htm

Al Qaeda gots the mad photoshop skillz
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/08/02/wired-al-qaeda-gots-the-mad-photoshop-skillz/

::) Al-Qaeda=Al-Ciada photoshop

well if you find it odd that they are rusted, think about when the fire dept was pulled from searching, that should put a bit of a time stamp to it. Also its the norm to find surface rust and steel that is that old, even when wraped in a wall, humidity will do it.

Quote from: d3adp00l on August 02, 2007, 09:33:28 PM
well if you find it odd that they are rusted, think about when the fire dept was pulled from searching, that should put a bit of a time stamp to it. Also its the norm to find surface rust and steel that is that old, even when wraped in a wall, humidity will do it.

Yeah metal rusts pretty fast unprotected (Oil or paint) or after it has been burnt

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on August 02, 2007, 01:45:12 AM
I hate to ruin this, but does that cut beam at least start to make our case? You seemed especially noteful of the thermate viens. Any further comments on that picture or possible cutting devices?

~Dingus Mungus

No it doesn't make your case. a little melted iron doesn't qualify or disqualify it as thermate. it just says that there was atleast 2750 to 3000 degrees within the structure as it collapsed. as i said before the trapped air as the structure fell probably made a efficient natural gas axe or a blast furnace as the building fell. the fire was what set these structers on a course of disaster and sets them apart from an implosion standpoint.

Sure i have seen images and video concerning molen metal recovered from the structures. it is misleading because when we think of molten metal we think of a refined glob of iron. this wasn't the case. it had debris in it that it collected as it saught other molten metals within the flow of debris as the structure collapsed. 

First of all, blast furnace with what for fuel, a desk?!? The kerosene aka jet fuel aka stuff that won't run in any other engine was 800 feet up and burned away. And on top of that a blast furnace is just that not a laser beam 45 degree cut, and other flat cuts. If the steel had an area of melted steel, I would say there is not fuel to support the theory but there is more damage than could be described by a shape charge, which is the only way I can think of or have seen that can cut 4" of solid steel in a single pass. As far as what your point was about there molten balls of iron and debris I didn't get it. If a thermite/mate compound was used it would leave as a by product molten iron, not steel, iron, which was what the sames where tested for. And they came up with iron, less the carbon and other additives. The big balls, best know was the "meteorite" could be explained by only one thing molten iron flowed and gather in a low point and mixed itself with the debris it ended up in. And there is not a single plausible explanation for the liquid metal, neither the balls of it or what was seen by construction workers flowing down c channels and i beams. There was nothing in the towers that could produce that heat FOR WEEKS AFTERWARD, end of story. The only possible explanation is something was in there that shouldn't have been and some of that something didn't ignite when the rest of it did. Which can happen when the source of ignition is severed when a building comes apart and breaks the connection. Which could later be reignited by the proximity of other stuff that wasn't supposed to be there.

Quote from: d3adp00l on August 03, 2007, 01:30:57 AM
First of all, blast furnace with what for fuel, a desk?!? The kerosene aka jet fuel aka stuff that won't run in any other engine was 800 feet up and burned away. And on top of that a blast furnace is just that not a laser beam 45 degree cut, and other flat cuts. If the steel had an area of melted steel, I would say there is not fuel to support the theory but there is more damage than could be described by a shape charge, which is the only way I can think of or have seen that can cut 4" of solid steel in a single pass. As far as what your point was about there molten balls of iron and debris I didn't get it. If a thermite/mate compound was used it would leave as a by product molten iron, not steel, iron, which was what the sames where tested for. And they came up with iron, less the carbon and other additives. The big balls, best know was the "meteorite" could be explained by only one thing molten iron flowed and gather in a low point and mixed itself with the debris it ended up in. And there is not a single plausible explanation for the liquid metal, neither the balls of it or what was seen by construction workers flowing down c channels and i beams. There was nothing in the towers that could produce that heat FOR WEEKS AFTERWARD, end of story. The only possible explanation is something was in there that shouldn't have been and some of that something didn't ignite when the rest of it did. Which can happen when the source of ignition is severed when a building comes apart and breaks the connection. Which could later be reignited by the proximity of other stuff that wasn't supposed to be there.

Good analysis.

There is little possiblity that the jet fuel explosion could have melt steel in the first place, let alone melt it so hotly that molton steel was being pulled out of the ground month later.

Quote from: d3adp00l on August 03, 2007, 01:30:57 AM
First of all, blast furnace with what for fuel, a desk?!? The kerosene aka jet fuel aka stuff that won't run in any other engine was 800 feet up and burned away. And on top of that a blast furnace is just that not a laser beam 45 degree cut, and other flat cuts. If the steel had an area of melted steel, I would say there is not fuel to support the theory but there is more damage than could be described by a shape charge, which is the only way I can think of or have seen that can cut 4" of solid steel in a single pass. As far as what your point was about there molten balls of iron and debris I didn't get it. If a thermite/mate compound was used it would leave as a by product molten iron, not steel, iron, which was what the sames where tested for. And they came up with iron, less the carbon and other additives. The big balls, best know was the "meteorite" could be explained by only one thing molten iron flowed and gather in a low point and mixed itself with the debris it ended up in. And there is not a single plausible explanation for the liquid metal, neither the balls of it or what was seen by construction workers flowing down c channels and i beams. There was nothing in the towers that could produce that heat FOR WEEKS AFTERWARD, end of story. The only possible explanation is something was in there that shouldn't have been and some of that something didn't ignite when the rest of it did. Which can happen when the source of ignition is severed when a building comes apart and breaks the connection. Which could later be reignited by the proximity of other stuff that wasn't supposed to be there.

Think about the bigger picture involved. were talking about alot of mass seeking to reach a rest point. Building and contents, the contents are flamable for the better part. the fuel you ask? The contents are the fuel so yes the desk the entire contents of the cubicles the entire contents of the offices and the whole contents of every floor. As for the heat, I would think it's pretty hot at the core of the planet with molten elements churning about like they do. There is no magic to this the sheer mass with the contents as fuel a fire roaring with red hot iron inject air at high pressure and you have a cutting torch of macro portions. that's not taking into account for the carbon minoxide present in the air, add the fact that churning elements of great proportions tend to get very hot (due to friction) as with the core of the earth. You may research how a blast furnace works to better understand what was happening in the buildings as they were collapsing. no thermite required! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_furnace 

Essentially the heat wanted to rise but was forced downward by debris/fuel/energy seeking a rest state via the path of least resistance. This was an enormus release of energy with an extreme amount of mass with more than an ample amount of fuel. If it didn't burn for weeks than i would be suspicous.  ::)

So a fire fueled by a few hundred gallons of kerosene, not only brought down the first steel high rise with fire in history, but also melted hundreds of pounds of steel. The energy needed is just not there. That in its self would be overunity. I don't care how you burn the fuel it will nevr reach heats higher than 1300 degrees. At least your willing to acknowledge the molten steel, the people whos story you back up deny its existence. They do this because they KNOW jet fuel can't melt steel. John Gross, who headed the NIST report, said himself: "I think its pretty difficult to get those kinds of temperatures from a fire".

His own words: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZgYNGGgBP0

So... Yeah... Kinda odd not a single new source reported this ignorance.

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&um=1&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=john+gross+nist
Scratch that... Found one, but its an Seatle Times editorial... Figures...


"Based on this comprehensive investigation, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius)"
~ http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

Where did the molten steel come from then?
Why would John Gross (Co-Project Leader) claim there was none?
Wouldn't he have seen more photos and real world data than us in 3 years?

You and I both know it doesn't add up.

Oh and molten steel and explosions were reported by FDNY long before the collapse.
So your last arguement wouldn't really apply now would it?

~Dingus Mungus

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on August 03, 2007, 09:17:25 AM
So a fire fueled by a few hundred gallons of kerosene, not only brought down the first steel high rise with fire in history, but also melted hundreds of pounds of steel. The energy needed is just not there. That in its self would be overunity. I don't care how you burn the fuel it will nevr reach heats higher than 1300 degrees. At least your willing to acknowledge the molten steel, the people whos story you back up deny its existence. They do this because they KNOW jet fuel can't melt steel. John Gross, who headed the NIST report, said himself: "I think its pretty difficult to get those kinds of temperatures from a fire".

His own words: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZgYNGGgBP0

So... Yeah... Kinda odd not a single new source reported this ignorance.

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&um=1&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=john+gross+nist
Scratch that... Found one, but its an Seatle Times editorial... Figures...


"Based on this comprehensive investigation, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius)"
~ http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

Where did the molten steel come from then?
Why would John Gross (Co-Project Leader) claim there was none?
Wouldn't he have seen more photos and real world data than us in 3 years?

You and I both know it doesn't add up.

Oh and molten steel and explosions were reported by FDNY long before the collapse.
So your last arguement wouldn't really apply now would it?

~Dingus Mungus

1300 deg? BS I can get higher teperatures just fueling a fire with wood. have did it many times right here in my driveway. You can keep denying that higher temperatures were involved, focusing only on the jet fuel but the buildings was filled with fuels in the form of objects adding fuel to the fire increasing the temp. I melt hundreds of pounds of aluminium with a full sized truck load of wood. It's not that difficult. were really talking about hundreds of thousands of tonnes of iron. no it's not overunity. Just energy bieng released by fire.

"So... Yeah... Kinda odd not a single new source reported this ignorance." the ignorance is in not seeking what was going on inside the buildings or the mechanics of what was going on in them prior to and during collapse. It takes a little mechanical genius and a lot of common sense which the average mind just isn't capable of understanding. Your looking for a single new source? I look this thread over and see that there doesn't seem to be any single source involved in it. there are hundreds of sources some conflict eachother. so in general the sources posted only support the arguement at the time. Example: your saying 1300deg but i know i seen 3 different accounts where firemen are stating that it was 2750-3500 deg 5 days after the collapse. Now what? So it is quite apparent that the multiple sources are unintentionally  misleading and conflicting when it is viewed in fragments siting mute points via uninformed or averaged minded wittness. that are unreliable at best. You stated something like you don't watch tv as it conditions people to believe certain things. well the sounds representative of an explosion is an edited or manipulated track in many cases. so who say's that any of these wittness's have actually heard a real explosion to make a realistic comparison?

Yeah i know it add's up. but apparently you don't. Your still trying to find the conspiracy in it, not focusing on the facts and potentials involved.  But don't include me in your ignorance of it. Things burn and explode in a fire get a grip on reality.   ::)

@ring_theory

it seems you still have not watched the 9/11 Loose Change and the other movies listed
here in the thread in the earlier pages...

The fires were almost out before the WTC towers were destroyed via controlled demolition.

This was seen due to the black smoke which tells you the fires were not hot but lacking oxygen.

Also simular skycraper towers burned for more than 20 hours and did not collapse.

Steel is conducting the heat very well away from the fire source to other colder floors, so it does not reach melting points...

The WTC towers were brought down by computer controlled demolition charges,
which were planted some days/weeks before 9/11 into the towers.
In themovie it was said, that the brother of Bush, who was responsible for the WTC security,
removed the explosive bomb sniffing dogs and there were drills a few days before 9/11
were also the power went out and all security cams were disabled, so the
hidden demolition troups could go in and plant the explosive charges..

I really wonder how many people were involved in all of this and
if nobody from these guys wanted to come forward with the truth,
but I guess they are all too scared about the consequences then for them...

These must have been very professional guys, who planed to bring the towers
down and did all the demolition charges, etc , so to look as if the plane crashes had done it...

Also the smoke clouds emmiting from the WTC controlled demolition
proves it all in all already, that the towers just did not collape only,
but were brought down by these controlled demolition charges.

Also the thermate charges which were used in the underground base of the
WTCs burned for a few weeks after 9/11 as it ignited with very hot temperates
all the steel beams,so they were weakened and crashed.


I also wonder, if somebody has already researched, who exactly profited
from the drop (put) orders at the brokers, that the airline stocks would fall
1 and 2 days before 9/11 ?

I guess if this could be traced you will have the real guys who are responsible
for 9/11.

Just trace the money being made from it and you will have the bad guys...
It is always the same...

@ring_theory

You should be a lumberjack.

You'd get good pay to knock down all trees in just three shots.
Just for show, douse them in a little gasoline on them for a nice show.

All your trees fall at free fall speed.
Completely gone even below the middle of the cut point.

This is off topic:
Please don't vaccinate before you educate.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2007/030807mercury.htm
Please watch this above. Very scary.

Bush will veto mercury ban bill.
http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=46105

I hate to see children get hurt for their parents stupidity.
Vaccines with thimerserol are being pushed like never before.

Would be nice to see some professional CGI animateur,who knows Max3DS very well
and who can use the physical behaviour plugin module to
simulate a real collapse of a WTC model based on the pancake theory.

With this simulation model you would see, that the WTC would
not fall down like free fall speed and would not pulverize to dust,
but just would brake down completely differently and would probably need
at least over a minute to collapse and much bigger parts would be
there afterwards and no pulverized pyrolytic smoke clouds would be there, just only
some dust...
And you would find bigger parts in the rumble
than just a small  telephone touchpad.... as one
rescue police officer told in the Loose change video...

( All the bigger parts like doors and desks were exploded to dust
due to the computer controlled exlosive demolition charges.....
Compare the detonation waves making pyrolytic smoke clouds
versus collapse dust-> totally different behaviour...later you would
find doors and desks after a normal collapse, but not after a detonation wave
ripping all things apart to dust....it is the speed of combustion that detonations
pulverize all things to dust !!! Have you ever played with blackpowder fireworks and compared it to
real dangerous bombs with real detonation explosives on it ?
Just have a look at youtube.com and see the difference....)

Quote from: ring_theory on August 03, 2007, 03:40:46 AM

Quote from: d3adp00l on August 03, 2007, 01:30:57 AM
First of all, blast furnace with what for fuel, a desk?!? The kerosene aka jet fuel aka stuff that won't run in any other engine was 800 feet up and burned away. And on top of that a blast furnace is just that not a laser beam 45 degree cut, and other flat cuts. If the steel had an area of melted steel, I would say there is not fuel to support the theory but there is more damage than could be described by a shape charge, which is the only way I can think of or have seen that can cut 4" of solid steel in a single pass. As far as what your point was about there molten balls of iron and debris I didn't get it. If a thermite/mate compound was used it would leave as a by product molten iron, not steel, iron, which was what the sames where tested for. And they came up with iron, less the carbon and other additives. The big balls, best know was the "meteorite" could be explained by only one thing molten iron flowed and gather in a low point and mixed itself with the debris it ended up in. And there is not a single plausible explanation for the liquid metal, neither the balls of it or what was seen by construction workers flowing down c channels and i beams. There was nothing in the towers that could produce that heat FOR WEEKS AFTERWARD, end of story. The only possible explanation is something was in there that shouldn't have been and some of that something didn't ignite when the rest of it did. Which can happen when the source of ignition is severed when a building comes apart and breaks the connection. Which could later be reignited by the proximity of other stuff that wasn't supposed to be there.

Think about the bigger picture involved. were talking about alot of mass seeking to reach a rest point. Building and contents, the contents are flamable for the better part. the fuel you ask? The contents are the fuel so yes the desk the entire contents of the cubicles the entire contents of the offices and the whole contents of every floor. As for the heat, I would think it's pretty hot at the core of the planet with molten elements churning about like they do. There is no magic to this the sheer mass with the contents as fuel a fire roaring with red hot iron inject air at high pressure and you have a cutting torch of macro portions. that's not taking into account for the carbon minoxide present in the air, add the fact that churning elements of great proportions tend to get very hot (due to friction) as with the core of the earth. You may research how a blast furnace works to better understand what was happening in the buildings as they were collapsing. no thermite required! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_furnace 

Essentially the heat wanted to rise but was forced downward by debris/fuel/energy seeking a rest state via the path of least resistance. This was an enormus release of energy with an extreme amount of mass with more than an ample amount of fuel. If it didn't burn for weeks than i would be suspicous.  ::)

Once again ring you surprise me with justification of a flawed idea. No wonder tpus don't work. 1st Thing, the contents of a building are not flamable "for the most part" quite the opposite, unless you add a highly flamable source to get the temperatures up high enough. Offices have the basic contents of kindling most of it has a poor rate of burn. Paper burns fast, carpet slow,plastic slower. No ring you are wrong in the assesment of the available fuel. 2nd Those items do not spontaniously combust from pressure, and given the fact that the fires were 800 feet up there is no way that the two instances of heat (fire, melted steel) are connected, therefore another source of heat is need, which is not explainable by you contents theory, otherwise every steel building the caught fire would colapse and none other than the towers ever has. 3rd The mathmatics of the heat you suggest because of mass does not work, its very simple add the potential energy of the mass in the building THEN SUBTRACT THAT ENERGY FROM THE ENERGY NEEDED TO BREAK THE MECHANICAL BONDS OF ALL THE FLOORS, the energy used to turn the concrete to dust, the energy to bend the steel, the energy to throw human remains a block away (with an ave size of 3/4") the amount of energy transfered into the ground as vibration, the sound energy, the energy to push a cloud of dust weighing thousands of tons into the atmosphere, and so on, there is a huge list of negative energy components, which make not only your friction theory a load of bs, but it makes the fact that the building fell into its own footprint impossible, end of story, only if energy was added into the equation, or better said energy used to reduce the negative energy component of the equation could the building even fall in the manor it did. By the way do you really believe that pressure alone is what causes the earths core to be warm, you really need to re-look the world you live in, if that was the case the the earth itself would be O/U, unless of course we lost a lot of mass in the energy transfer of E=mc2. Which doesn't happen so beither can the rest, The core of the earth is not hot because of pressure alone. Why doesn't the ocean bottom spontaneously boil? Sure is alot of pressure down there. Btw there wasn't some massive fuel fire, when the building colapsed on it it would have suffocated it, NO OXYGEN. And carbon dioxide doesn't burn or release energy, I don't know what your trying to say with that other than more distraction."Blast furnaces are to be contrasted with air furnaces (such as reverberatory furnaces), which were naturally aspirated," a quote from your wiki link A blast furnace is one in which the oxygen is blown into the the reactor, in the buildings case air would and was blown out the windows, so again no blast furnace. The heat from the friction internal to the steel as it was bend would have dispated faster than the heat does when its forged, which doesn't last weeks. A single small area of heat may have lasted a little while from the floors that were actually on fire, similar as when a building is burned to the ground and there is still heat the day after, but again not for weeks, and not when there is not fire. If that was the case when buildings are dropped there would be the same problem, but there isn't is there.



Melting point of AL 660 degrees C
melting point of steel 1200 degrees C
Why do you think it took man so long to begin the steel era ring.

Also a collapsing building doesn't create 3/4" pieces of peoples remains, the people in the building were blown to chunks.

There,s to much confusion...    I can,t get no relief...

Jimmy Hendrix  8)

Quote from: ring_theory on August 03, 2007, 01:19:28 PM
1300 deg? BS I can get higher teperatures just fueling a fire with wood. have did it many times right here in my driveway. You can keep denying that higher temperatures were involved, focusing only on the jet fuel but the buildings was filled with fuels in the form of objects adding fuel to the fire increasing the temp. I melt hundreds of pounds of aluminium with a full sized truck load of wood. It's not that difficult. were really talking about hundreds of thousands of tonnes of iron. no it's not overunity. Just energy bieng released by fire.

Wow... No kidding good thing we're NOT talking about Aluminum since it melts at those temperatures. Unfortunately we're talking about liquid steel. Which requires temps twice what you claim to achieve in your drive way. So tht point made very little difference.

Also wood doesn't burn as hot as jet fuel. Theres this little thing called energy density, and wood has very little energy density when compaired to Fuel. Also all burning materials reach a max possible temp. Jet fuel can only reach a max temp of 900 degrees celcius. Otherwise the "blast furnace" we call a jet engine would melt before take off.

Quote from: ring_theory on August 03, 2007, 01:19:28 PM
"So... Yeah... Kinda odd not a single new source reported this ignorance." the ignorance is in not seeking what was going on inside the buildings or the mechanics of what was going on in them prior to and during collapse. It takes a little mechanical genius and a lot of common sense which the average mind just isn't capable of understanding.

You are such a rotten little dip shit. Twisting my words. The ignorance (meaning unaware of) was John Gross publiclty saying there was never any claim of molten steel. Now that sounds pretty ignorant to me, considering all the pictures and eye witnesses. Ignorant could apply to a lot of people, but we both know it wasn't ignorance that caused him to deny the presence of molten steel. Why would he say it doesn't exist???

Quote from: ring_theory on August 03, 2007, 01:19:28 PM
Your looking for a single new source? I look this thread over and see that there doesn't seem to be any single source involved in it. there are hundreds of sources some conflict eachother. so in general the sources posted only support the arguement at the time.

My points:
WTC7 fall time
Molten steel

My sources:
Any that show physical evidence
(pics, vids, siesmology data, eye witness accounts)

Quote from: ring_theory on August 03, 2007, 01:19:28 PM
Example: your saying 1300deg but i know i seen 3 different accounts where firemen are stating that it was 2750-3500 deg 5 days after the collapse. Now what?

Ummmm that makes my point... Firemen reporting temps fire could not make...
Not my words, John Gross from NIST's words.

Quote from: ring_theory on August 03, 2007, 01:19:28 PM
So it is quite apparent that the multiple sources are unintentionally  misleading and conflicting when it is viewed in fragments siting mute points via uninformed or averaged minded wittness. that are unreliable at best.

This coming from a guy who supports the 9-11 commision report...

Quote from: ring_theory on August 03, 2007, 01:19:28 PM
You stated something like you don't watch tv as it conditions people to believe certain things. well the sounds representative of an explosion is an edited or manipulated track in many cases. so who say's that any of these wittness's have actually heard a real explosion to make a realistic comparison?

The firemen in the video all acknowledge the expolsions?!?!?!
I'm not claiming explosions due to a soundtrack! You skew the facts!

Quote from: ring_theory on August 03, 2007, 01:19:28 PM
Yeah i know it add's up. but apparently you don't. Your still trying to find the conspiracy in it, not focusing on the facts and potentials involved.  But don't include me in your ignorance of it. Things burn and explode in a fire get a grip on reality.   ::)

Ok so after all this you never answered:

Where did the molten steel come from then?
(melt a grade8 steel bolt in your drive way for "proof")

Why would John Gross (Co-Project Leader) claim there was no molten steel?
(Obviously there was molten steel right?)

Wouldn't he have seen more photos and real world data than us in 3 years time?
(Including some of the pictures and videos that were classified)


Rather than attempt to confuse and smear facts, answer a question.
~Dingus Mungus

Quote from: hartiberlin on August 03, 2007, 03:18:06 PM
@ring_theory

it seems you still have not watched the 9/11 Loose Change and the other movies listed
here in the thread in the earlier pages...

The fires were almost out before the WTC towers were destroyed via controlled demolition.

This was seen due to the black smoke which tells you the fires were not hot but lacking oxygen.

Also simular skycraper towers burned for more than 20 hours and did not collapse.

Steel is conducting the heat very well away from the fire source to other colder floors, so it does not reach melting points...

The WTC towers were brought down by computer controlled demolition charges,
which were planted some days/weeks before 9/11 into the towers.
In themovie it was said, that the brother of Bush, who was responsible for the WTC security,
removed the explosive bomb sniffing dogs and there were drills a few days before 9/11
were also the power went out and all security cams were disabled, so the
hidden demolition troups could go in and plant the explosive charges..

I really wonder how many people were involved in all of this and
if nobody from these guys wanted to come forward with the truth,
but I guess they are all too scared about the consequences then for them...

These must have been very professional guys, who planed to bring the towers
down and did all the demolition charges, etc , so to look as if the plane crashes had done it...

Also the smoke clouds emmiting from the WTC controlled demolition
proves it all in all already, that the towers just did not collape only,
but were brought down by these controlled demolition charges.

Also the thermate charges which were used in the underground base of the
WTCs burned for a few weeks after 9/11 as it ignited with very hot temperates
all the steel beams,so they were weakened and crashed.


I also wonder, if somebody has already researched, who exactly profited
from the drop (put) orders at the brokers, that the airline stocks would fall
1 and 2 days before 9/11 ?

I guess if this could be traced you will have the real guys who are responsible
for 9/11.

Just trace the money being made from it and you will have the bad guys...
It is always the same...

Yes i did watch the loose change video. I just don't believe everything that i hear or see in it. I'm not going through a frame by frame evaluation of it either. as i said in my previous post "I look this thread over and see that there doesn't seem to be any single source involved in it. there are hundreds of sources some conflict eachother. so in general the sources posted only support the arguement at the time."

"The fires were almost out before the WTC towers were destroyed via controlled demolition." Ok what is your evidence that it was a controlled demolition?? 1 and 2? this really mystifies me because "if" (and that's a really big if) it was a controlled demolition it would be the first ever to be done from the top down. just that fact alone dissmisses the whole controlled demolition thing. I might be crazy but i'm not dumb and if i was instructed by anyone to carry explosives into a occupied burning building they would be doing it themselfs. would you?? It would take weeks possibly months to prepare the buildings for implosion. Sure you can assume that a normal maintenence crew or an improvement like new ducting or whatever could have been a the beginnings of a conspiracy. but I highly doubt it was anything other than exactly what it was said to be maintenence or improving the ventalation system.

"This was seen due to the black smoke which tells you the fires were not hot but lacking oxygen." get ya a couple of rubber tires stack them up pour oil on them than take a propane torch and light the oil. when the tires are burning as hot as they can possibly get you'll notice that the smoke is pure black but yet it isn't starved for oxygen. so black smoke doesn't indicate it was starving from lack of oxygen.

"Also simular skycraper towers burned for more than 20 hours and did not collapse." there is not a building on the planet that is simular to the former WTC #1 and #2 towers.

"Steel is conducting the heat very well away from the fire source to other colder floors, so it does not reach melting points..."
Well partially agreed. however what about the exo skeleton of the towers? wouldn't it reflect a great amount of heat back to the core of the fire? With that also deserving mention is that the heat would have also been radiated outwards much like a heat sink.

"The WTC towers were brought down by computer controlled demolition charges,
which were planted some days/weeks before 9/11 into the towers.
In themovie it was said, that the brother of Bush, who was responsible for the WTC security,
removed the explosive bomb sniffing dogs and there were drills a few days before 9/11
were also the power went out and all security cams were disabled, so the
hidden demolition troups could go in and plant the explosive charges.."

Stefan really? Did you ever think to note how many times "loose change" offers an alternate or objective opinion in his short films? Before i would believe one word of it I would have to see where they offered some other explanation other than what they present. It's a little bit one sided if you ask me.  It also concernes me greatly as to what they stand to gain from it.

I mean really. If today was the day that irrefutable evidence was provided what would that mean? I'll tell you that the result would not be favorable for the good and honest american people who generally mean well. As if our honor has not been dishonored enough? Is the rest of the world going to turn their back on us? are we going to become outcasts among the world community? What would that do to our local, state, and federal government? Anarchy would be promoted as the terrorists want. They win, we lose. I agree that those responcible for this terroristic act should be held liable!! But before I or anyone can make that call we had damned well be 100% sure we know and can prove irrifutably that this is exactly how this happened. And at this point i don't see enough real evedence just some accusations based on biased opinions at best. And at that they don't offer an alternate explination.



 

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 01:03:59 AM
Yes i did watch the loose change video. I just don't believe everything that i hear or see in it. I'm not going through a frame by frame evaluation of it either. as i said in my previous post "I look this thread over and see that there doesn't seem to be any single source involved in it. there are hundreds of sources some conflict eachother. so in general the sources posted only support the arguement at the time."

Most of "loose change" is crap... I won't debate that. I'm only interested in facts.

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 01:03:59 AM
"The fires were almost out before the WTC towers were destroyed via controlled demolition." Ok what is your evidence that it was a controlled demolition?? 1 and 2?

Avoiding the issue are we? The fires were reported as almost out by FDNY.
You should explain that away first...

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 01:03:59 AM
this really mystifies me because "if" (and that's a really big if) it was a controlled demolition it would be the first ever to be done from the top down. just that fact alone dissmisses the whole controlled demolition thing.

This isn't a standard building demo now is it?
Are you saying its impossible to demo from top down?
Are you sure it's 100% not possible to demo from top down?

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 01:03:59 AM
I might be crazy but i'm not dumb and if i was instructed by anyone to carry explosives into a occupied burning building they would be doing it themselfs. would you?? It would take weeks possibly months to prepare the buildings for implosion. Sure you can assume that a normal maintenence crew or an improvement like new ducting or whatever could have been a the beginnings of a conspiracy. but I highly doubt it was anything other than exactly what it was said to be maintenence or improving the ventalation system.

The difference is: We see inconsistencies in the story. HUGE HOLES! What bothers me about you is; you believe theres a whole religion capable of that kind of evil, but a 40 man crew in NYC... No way...

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 01:03:59 AM
"This was seen due to the black smoke which tells you the fires were not hot but lacking oxygen." get ya a couple of rubber tires stack them up pour oil on them than take a propane torch and light the oil. when the tires are burning as hot as they can possibly get you'll notice that the smoke is pure black but yet it isn't starved for oxygen. so black smoke doesn't indicate it was starving from lack of oxygen.

Because all sky rise building have tires and oil on high floors? ::)
I agree synthetic rubbers and oil burn black, but where did all the "hydrocarbon" materials come from. Most sky rise buildings are built with less flamable materials, and theres no reason I could see for hundreds of pounds of rubber or oil to be in the building. What is your point with this?

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 01:03:59 AM
"Also simular skycraper towers burned for more than 20 hours and did not collapse." there is not a building on the planet that is simular to the former WTC #1 and #2 towers.

Thats not what I've read/seen photographic evidence of...
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc1_core.html
How many building cores have you examined in making that hypothesis?

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 01:03:59 AM
"Steel is conducting the heat very well away from the fire source to other colder floors, so it does not reach melting points..."
Well partially agreed. however what about the exo skeleton of the towers? wouldn't it reflect a great amount of heat back to the core of the fire? With that also deserving mention is that the heat would have also been radiated outwards much like a heat sink.

No matter what it won't be conducting heat above 1000 degrees celcius... And since there was so much more steel in ratio to fuel, that makes even less sense.

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 01:03:59 AM
"The WTC towers were brought down by computer controlled demolition charges,
which were planted some days/weeks before 9/11 into the towers.
In themovie it was said, that the brother of Bush, who was responsible for the WTC security,
removed the explosive bomb sniffing dogs and there were drills a few days before 9/11
were also the power went out and all security cams were disabled, so the
hidden demolition troups could go in and plant the explosive charges.."

Stefan really? Did you ever think to note how many times "loose change" offers an alternate or objective opinion in his short films? Before i would believe one word of it I would have to see where they offered some other explanation other than what they present.

Read it... Check the facts yourself.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/911security.html

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 01:03:59 AM
It's a little bit one sided if you ask me.  It also concernes me greatly as to what they stand to gain from it.

Our country back... It's being eroded away, but you don't notice I guess.

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 01:03:59 AM
I mean really. If today was the day that irrefutable evidence was provided what would that mean? I'll tell you that the result would not be favorable for the good and honest american people who generally mean well. As if our honor has not been dishonored enough? Is the rest of the world going to turn their back on us? are we going to become outcasts among the world community? What would that do to our local, state, and federal government?

We would need to fix some things and punnish those who knowingly took part in this. Eventually people would roll over and we would be lead to the "people" behind this.

Don't kid yourself, the world already hates us. You should really read up on our foreign policy, and the list of countries we've invade, and list of dictators we've installed. It's time to remove the power of the "millitary industrial complex". If we are not a war nation, then we are of no use to them. We need to earn back the trust of the world already. We want justice, and no matter how many people we kill in the middle east justice will not be done untill those truely responcible are found.

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 01:03:59 AM
Anarchy would be promoted as the terrorists want. They win, we lose. I agree that those responcible for this terroristic act should be held liable!! But before I or anyone can make that call we had damned well be 100% sure we know and can prove irrifutably that this is exactly how this happened. And at this point i don't see enough real evedence just some accusations based on biased opinions at best. And at that they don't offer an alternate explination.

Charging the administration with treason would not equate to anarchy... Maybe one big sigh of relief, but not anarchy. Thats silly... Speaker of the house would assume command untill the next election, and local/state governments wouldn't be effected. Well maybe guilani would have some hell to deal with, but he would deserve it. He's made so much money off the war on terror that its crazy!!!

Just read some of this stuff then go research it yourself.
No matter how much you don't want to believe it, you can't change the facts.

~Dingus Mungus

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on August 04, 2007, 12:33:24 AM

Quote from: ring_theory on August 03, 2007, 01:19:28 PM
1300 deg? BS I can get higher teperatures just fueling a fire with wood. have did it many times right here in my driveway. You can keep denying that higher temperatures were involved, focusing only on the jet fuel but the buildings was filled with fuels in the form of objects adding fuel to the fire increasing the temp. I melt hundreds of pounds of aluminium with a full sized truck load of wood. It's not that difficult. were really talking about hundreds of thousands of tonnes of iron. no it's not overunity. Just energy bieng released by fire.

Wow... No kidding good thing we're NOT talking about Aluminum since it melts at those temperatures. Unfortunately we're talking about liquid steel. Which requires temps twice what you claim to achieve in your drive way. So tht point made very little difference.

Also wood doesn't burn as hot as jet fuel. Theres this little thing called energy density, and wood has very little energy density when compaired to Fuel. Also all burning materials reach a max possible temp. Jet fuel can only reach a max temp of 900 degrees celcius. Otherwise the "blast furnace" we call a jet engine would melt before take off.

Quote from: ring_theory on August 03, 2007, 01:19:28 PM
"So... Yeah... Kinda odd not a single new source reported this ignorance." the ignorance is in not seeking what was going on inside the buildings or the mechanics of what was going on in them prior to and during collapse. It takes a little mechanical genius and a lot of common sense which the average mind just isn't capable of understanding.

You are such a rotten little dip shit. Twisting my words. The ignorance (meaning unaware of) was John Gross publiclty saying there was never any claim of molten steel. Now that sounds pretty ignorant to me, considering all the pictures and eye witnesses. Ignorant could apply to a lot of people, but we both know it wasn't ignorance that caused him to deny the presence of molten steel. Why would he say it doesn't exist???

Quote from: ring_theory on August 03, 2007, 01:19:28 PM
Your looking for a single new source? I look this thread over and see that there doesn't seem to be any single source involved in it. there are hundreds of sources some conflict eachother. so in general the sources posted only support the arguement at the time.

My points:
WTC7 fall time
Molten steel

My sources:
Any that show physical evidence
(pics, vids, siesmology data, eye witness accounts)

Quote from: ring_theory on August 03, 2007, 01:19:28 PM
Example: your saying 1300deg but i know i seen 3 different accounts where firemen are stating that it was 2750-3500 deg 5 days after the collapse. Now what?

Ummmm that makes my point... Firemen reporting temps fire could not make...
Not my words, John Gross from NIST's words.

Quote from: ring_theory on August 03, 2007, 01:19:28 PM
So it is quite apparent that the multiple sources are unintentionally  misleading and conflicting when it is viewed in fragments siting mute points via uninformed or averaged minded wittness. that are unreliable at best.

This coming from a guy who supports the 9-11 commision report...

Quote from: ring_theory on August 03, 2007, 01:19:28 PM
You stated something like you don't watch tv as it conditions people to believe certain things. well the sounds representative of an explosion is an edited or manipulated track in many cases. so who say's that any of these wittness's have actually heard a real explosion to make a realistic comparison?

The firemen in the video all acknowledge the expolsions?!?!?!
I'm not claiming explosions due to a soundtrack! You skew the facts!

Quote from: ring_theory on August 03, 2007, 01:19:28 PM
Yeah i know it add's up. but apparently you don't. Your still trying to find the conspiracy in it, not focusing on the facts and potentials involved.  But don't include me in your ignorance of it. Things burn and explode in a fire get a grip on reality.   ::)

Ok so after all this you never answered:

Where did the molten steel come from then?
(melt a grade8 steel bolt in your drive way for "proof")

Why would John Gross (Co-Project Leader) claim there was no molten steel?
(Obviously there was molten steel right?)

Wouldn't he have seen more photos and real world data than us in 3 years time?
(Including some of the pictures and videos that were classified)


Rather than attempt to confuse and smear facts, answer a question.
~Dingus Mungus

"Wow... No kidding good thing we're NOT talking about Aluminum since it melts at those temperatures. Unfortunately we're talking about liquid steel. Which requires temps twice what you claim to achieve in your drive way. So tht point made very little difference."

The point was and I didn't make it apparent. through doing such is a lessen learned. if i try it with 3 sticks of wood insufficient heat is obtained. 100 pieces of wood isn't enough, now 500 pieces is sufficient to melt the aluminium from the iron leaving the iron red hot. Ok I concede that we are talking about iron in the case of the wtc. However the point is that if i add more fuel to the fire the end result is a hot enough fire to melt the aluminium from the iron. 

"Also wood doesn't burn as hot as jet fuel. Theres this little thing called energy density, and wood has very little energy density when compaired to Fuel. Also all burning materials reach a max possible temp."

Ok i agree wood does not burn as hot under normal conditions. However change the conditions and you can have a hotter than "normal" fire. simply inject oxygen. Refering a jet engine to a blast furnace is just wrong. Now on the other hand it is in effect closer to a gas axe. Maximum possible temp again i agree however there is also a flash point involved.   

"You are such a rotten little dip shit. Twisting my words. The ignorance (meaning unaware of) was John Gross publiclty saying there was never any claim of molten steel. Now that sounds pretty ignorant to me, considering all the pictures and eye witnesses. Ignorant could apply to a lot of people, but we both know it wasn't ignorance that caused him to deny the presence of molten steel. Why would he say it doesn't exist???"

Why thank you.  8) However i didn't mean to in this case i misunderstood in what spirit it was meant. I apologise.  :-[
"Why would he say it doesn't exist???" Denial. I know that makes your point as well. However given that I cannot seem to get what i concider some of the brightest minds in the world to understand how it come to be. I'm certain that he himself don't understand it's presence so he in his own mind denies it's existance. simply because he cannot even begin to comprehend how it came to be. He cannot explain it so he don't want to discuss it and the easy and fastest way is to deny it's existance. Which brings to bare the whole point of Witness reliability bieng well, unreliable.

"My points:
WTC7 fall time
Molten steel"

Fall time: newton covered that maybe you need to address some of his works again as You won't listen to me. Citing pancaking of floors which i doubt was the case as the structure partially twisted as it fell. which is another point i make that you dismiss readily but evidence proves different.
Molten iron: well a fire was involved, enough heat was generated to melt iron with the potential as the structure fell to blast oxygen past or into the allready red hot iron.

"This coming from a guy who supports the 9-11 commision report..."

I've never seen it to my knowledge. However i may have come to some of the same conclusions.

"The firemen in the video all acknowledge the expolsions?!?!?!
I'm not claiming explosions due to a soundtrack! You skew the facts!"

I'm not skewing the facts the firemen are. I don't hear explosions. all i hear is a collapsing building going through it's last throws of resistance. do a side by side comparison of WTC collapse and a building bieng imploded by soundtrack alone. you will hear a distinct difference between ignited charges and shearing structural supports as the building twists and collapses.

"Ok so after all this you never answered:" Whatever i have answered your questions time and again.

"Where did the molten steel come from then?
(melt a grade8 steel bolt in your drive way for "proof")" addressed earlier in this post

"Why would John Gross (Co-Project Leader) claim there was no molten steel?" addressed earlier in this post
"(Obviously there was molten steel right?)" Right.

"Wouldn't he have seen more photos and real world data than us in 3 years time?
(Including some of the pictures and videos that were classified)" Yes seeing it. Understanding it is a whole different ballgame for some.


"Rather than attempt to confuse and smear facts, answer a question." I've been answering questions all along but you just percieve the answers as smearing of facts or not note worthy.

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
The point was and I didn't make it apparent. through doing such is a lessen learned. if i try it with 3 sticks of wood insufficient heat is obtained. 100 pieces of wood isn't enough, now 500 pieces is sufficient to melt the aluminium from the iron leaving the iron red hot. Ok I concede that we are talking about iron in the case of the wtc. However the point is that if i add more fuel to the fire the end result is a hot enough fire to melt the aluminium from the iron.

That doesn't negate its max temp. Max temp is determined by the speed and energy of the oxidation. Molecules always have these kinds of factors limiting the ammount of energy you can release in a time span. The point I was making is nothing in that building was capable of producing those temperatures. (except the explosives) Use wood and jet fuel in your smelter... If your right the unit will melt itself. 5$ says your safe...

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
Ok i agree wood does not burn as hot under normal conditions. However change the conditions and you can have a hotter than "normal" fire. simply inject oxygen. Refering a jet engine to a blast furnace is just wrong. Now on the other hand it is in effect closer to a gas axe. Maximum possible temp again i agree however there is also a flash point involved.

"Refering a jet engine to a blast furnace is just wrong." Ummmm...  What about swapping coal or coke for JET FUEL. So you say the jet fuel with moving air acted like a blast furnace in WTC, but when the air and fuel move through an engine suddenly its not like a blast furnace??? Explain...

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
Why thank you.  8) However i didn't mean to in this case i misunderstood in what spirit it was meant. I apologise.  :-[

Well then I may have over reacted. It sounded as if you were calling me ignorant. Which would be rather offensive considering I've tryed to read all sides of the story. Including the silly reptile and alien shit to the straight laced official story, and much in between.

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
"Why would he say it doesn't exist???" Denial. I know that makes your point as well. However given that I cannot seem to get what i concider some of the brightest minds in the world to understand how it come to be. I'm certain that he himself don't understand it's presence so he in his own mind denies it's existance. simply because he cannot even begin to comprehend how it came to be. He cannot explain it so he don't want to discuss it and the easy and fastest way is to deny it's existance. Which brings to bare the whole point of Witness reliability bieng well, unreliable.

HE HEADED THE "FALL AND BURN" SECTION OF THE REPORT!!!!
Thats not something I want ignored! Thats my POINT!!!
You must now understand why there must be a new investigation.

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AMFall time: newton covered that maybe you need to address some of his works again as You won't listen to me.

WTC7 fall time: 6.5seconds
free fall in vac: 6.0seconds

Due to "wind resistance" there's simply no extra time left for any pancaking to take place. Per floor fall time would be measured in two times; fall time and resistance time. You understand fall time, but you need to analise resistance time. There is an exchange of energy that needs to take place when one object turns another to dust... This would slow its fall speed considerably on each impact. Please research this point for yourself. It's simply impossible from a physics stand point. No extra time!

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
Citing pancaking of floors which i doubt was the case as the structure partially twisted as it fell. which is another point i make that you dismiss readily but evidence proves different.

So if pancaking didn't happen why was concrete turned to dust? and steel melted? Where does all the friction come from? (Silly question considering prefall molten steel)
You never adressed that by the way... If it was the fall and friction why was there several fountains of molten steel spotted?

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
Molten iron: well a fire was involved, enough heat was generated to melt iron with the potential as the structure fell to blast oxygen past or into the allready red hot iron.

You still haven't sited a source, so untill you show me something proving you can achieve those kinds of heat with those fuels you're talking out your ass. I've shown several sources that clearly state the max tamp of jet fuel is 900 celsius. Show me something scientific!

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
"This coming from a guy who supports the 9-11 commision report..."

I've never seen it to my knowledge. However i may have come to some of the same conclusions.

LMAO! So then basicly your regurgitating what then? Because if you arived all on your own it must be a miracle. Considering you've never seen most of the material we post. What have you read that varies from the offical rant?

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
I'm not skewing the facts the firemen are. I don't hear explosions. all i hear is a collapsing building going through it's last throws of resistance.

Yeah, because you watching a youtube clip should be a much better judge of that.

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
do a side by side comparison of WTC collapse and a building bieng imploded by soundtrack alone. you will hear a distinct difference between ignited charges and shearing structural supports as the building twists and collapses.

Here this is brand new, it required a lot of stabilizing.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/744529/9_11_new_collapse_footage_rare_demo_clearly_seen/
Side by side no audio, but you heard the audio in last clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73qK4j32iuo
Mini version of wtc 7...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAyyHQQXX_0

Now you find me a video of a building falling from structural damage like wtc7 did!

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
I've been answering questions all along but you just percieve the answers as smearing of facts or not note worthy.

No you dodge most issues thats why I jump on other people questions. To help point out the complete lack of objectiveness you follow. You never answer questions or show a source... You repeat "talking points". No evidence yet... Show me a quote where you posted some "hard evidence" or a "source".

~Dingus Mungus

@ring_theory
you should really study the videos and try to understand and not twist the facts
over here.
Here is another video you should view:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItWsP1o2Tmg

DENIAL: THE 51ST STATE
http://sandbox.cedarconedesign.com/misc/den51state.html

This is a super article. I had posted it before but didn't realize they had moved it.

It is enlightening.

Hey ring as far as proof for building 7, read the thread. as far as honor goes, so what we should just shutup and let the honor of our country go to crap. As far as anarchy, so what we should do is allow what every knows to be corrupt to still exist and not change it. Ok Benedict, do you work for the government, with the way you double talk, and bring up the same old points that have been destroyed time and time again, I would say that YOU stand to lose something and you are fighting an irrational fight to keep it.
Face it here are the facts, and they have been presented multiple times on this thread, look it up.

Buildings 1&2, could not fail due to fuel fire, could not cause earthquake explosions, was not hot enough to stop people from being very close to the fires, was designed to withstand such an incident, would not have sustained damage from explosions prior to plane impact, would not have had damage in lobby, would not have had multiple explosions throughout the building, would not have collapsed in 9 seconds, would not have collapsed into itself which would take the most energy, would not have main support collumns cut, would not have enough energy to melt steel, would not have enough energy to remain hot for a month, would not have enough energy to powderize concrete or the rest of the contents of the building, would not expel jets off the side in a collapse, how does a plane hit this buildng and is somehow hot enough to melt steel but the same type of plane hits the pentagon and can't even burn a couple floors leaving wood desks stools books computers and everything else, want more?!?!


Building 7 would not have collapsed from a few fires, had little damage from failing debris meaning structure intact, would not fall in a few seconds, would not fall from the top down, would not fall into its own footprint, would not have two fracture lines vertically on the sides of the building, would have some explanation in the nist report, would not be hot enough to smolder for months, would not be hot enough to melt steel, would not collapse its basement, if building 4 had 1/4 of the building still standing after the debris leveled the rest and that 1/4 had to be dropped with demo cranes later then there is not reason for 7 to have every dropped,why announce (bbc,cnn)  that 7 had dropped when it hadn't if no one already knew, what happened to all the investigations that the building held paperwork for- are they still ongoing,Want more?!?!


World trade center, why would a buildings power be shut down for communication wiring, just to let you all know the systems are 100% independant of eachother and there is no reason on earth for doing that, if there was warning (which officials have said many times) why relax security, if the buildings were losing money for the port auth. which made them chose to lease it for 99 years why reward the "investor" with a grand total of 8.4 bil $, who made the money on the recycleing instead of investigating it, where is the gold, why does it seem that there was a ton of insider bank account transactions, would bought the "put" options, why when security is relaxed and cameras/card locks down would you "rewire" a building, you did that work and where is the permit for it, who is now paying for the new construction, and who all benefits from it. Turning a couple hundred grand into a new super tower with no mortgage is a neat trick.


Pentagon, wheres the plane, wheres the plane, wheres the plane, how did the hole get into the buildings,why is the damaged light poles and yet no debris, why are there windows intact in the place where the plane would have hit, how did a plane "vaporize" for the first time ever and yet make holes in an armored building, did I say wheres the plane, where video of the impact every inche of the building is under camera, why did the section collapse, not enough heat to burn books and stools, what was in the wood box, where are the bodies of the occupants, why is the plane still listed active, wheres the luggage , wheres the seats, wheres the plane, how does an elephant of an airplane invade the world's most secure airspace, and how does that elephant do a u turn in that airspace, hours after we "know" we are under an attack, why is there enough energy to vaporize an entire plane and its contents but the few so called parts of the skin are completely fresh and clean, how does a couple engine parts end up at a crash scene that could not of came from the type of plane that was said to hit it, how does a wheel shrink, no plane has ever crashed no matter the speed without leaving nearly all the plane left, how does a plane hit this building and barely burns leaving wood, paper, plastic, and everything but hit the wtc and somehow melts steel, and how does the plane even pull the last manuever when the fly by wire software system WILL NOT ALLOW such turns to be made, why does the FDR black box data not match the needed altitudes or angles to hit the building if it is the data from that plane, how does that box survive and yet so many others don't, remember the plane was vaporized, wheres the other engine, and how did the one engine shrink, why was evidence removed before it was tagged in its locations (a federal crime), Want more?!?!


Flight 93 how does it land in chicago and yet cash in penn., how does it leave no bodies luggage seats etc, how does most of it evaporate, how does it for the first time in history leave a crater, how is it not intercepted many hours after attacks, how are cell phones working, how is it that the scene is locked down almost imediately, how is it forgotten, how is it that most of the plane was vaporized but not enough heat to damage a nearby house, want more?!?!


Passports,passenger logs,remains,lists of the dead from the planes, and on and on and on


How is it that people did this
and how is it that so many accept the lies
how is it that you fabricate explanations to support it
is this a magic plane theory, like the magic bullet that hit jfk,

You sir are either so dependant on this system that you would rather live in this muck, or a supporter of the system that would allow, help, condone what happened.

@ Stefan

Oh now your believing in mainstream science to explain something? Maybe overunity and free-energy don't exist as they suggest?
Answer me this! Is it possible that a thermite reaction could have freakishly occured if the correct elements and conditions were present? I'm not going into it but the plane was aluminium.

@ Dingus
You replaced tv with youtube.  :( You didn't escape the conditioning you gave it free reign to condition you any way you want to be conditioned. "Keep an open mind but not so open your mind falls out" - ring. There was enough accumulated energy with Jet fuel, contents, airliner, oxygen rushing through the towers to suffeciently melt iron. Ok so if thermite was present and it is possible that it could have been. How did it come about? delivered hastily by firemen? meticulasly installed in black ops? Or a result of flying an aircraft into it? wasn't those planes i seen flying into them? all evidence points to the latter of the three. and nothing to support the previous two.  ::)

May I remind people again, fuel will only explode when under pressure or as a fume. The plane was fueled not to long ago(low fume level), and the plane crashing into the building depressurized the fuel. The accumulative temperature of the ignited fuel could not have melted the steel, infact, coolent on the airplane would have lowered it even more. I remmeber reading somewhere very long ago that all the important executives were told not to come to work that day. Many firemen were already ready before the plane crashed(wtf). The wtc fell as if the floors stacked like pancakes, the same as a controlled demolition.

Don't worry, why would the government have a reason to decieve us? ;) :D

oops i posted in the wrong thread, sorry.

Quote from: HopeForHumanity on August 04, 2007, 04:33:03 PM
May I remind people again, fuel will only explode when under pressure or as a fume. The plane was fueled not to long ago(low fume level), and the plane crashing into the building depressurized the fuel. The accumulative temperature of the ignited fuel could not have melted the steel, infact, coolent on the airplane would have lowered it even more. I remmeber reading somewhere very long ago that all the important executives were told not to come to work that day. Many firemen were already ready before the plane crashed(wtf). The wtc fell as if the floors stacked like pancakes, the same as a controlled demolition.

Don't worry, why would the government have a reason to decieve us? ;) :D

Why does everyone ignore the fact that there was other factors involved? like that the fuel ignited the contents of the building of the effected crash area. what about the fact that the wind was blowing right through the building increasing the temp of the fire.  ::)

Quote from: d3adp00l on August 04, 2007, 02:25:02 PM
Hey ring as far as proof for building 7, read the thread. as far as honor goes, so what we should just shutup and let the honor of our country go to crap. As far as anarchy, so what we should do is allow what every knows to be corrupt to still exist and not change it. Ok Benedict, do you work for the government, with the way you double talk, and bring up the same old points that have been destroyed time and time again, I would say that YOU stand to lose something and you are fighting an irrational fight to keep it.
Face it here are the facts, and they have been presented multiple times on this thread, look it up.

Buildings 1&2, could not fail due to fuel fire, could not cause earthquake explosions, was not hot enough to stop people from being very close to the fires, was designed to withstand such an incident, would not have sustained damage from explosions prior to plane impact, would not have had damage in lobby, would not have had multiple explosions throughout the building, would not have collapsed in 9 seconds, would not have collapsed into itself which would take the most energy, would not have main support collumns cut, would not have enough energy to melt steel, would not have enough energy to remain hot for a month, would not have enough energy to powderize concrete or the rest of the contents of the building, would not expel jets off the side in a collapse, how does a plane hit this buildng and is somehow hot enough to melt steel but the same type of plane hits the pentagon and can't even burn a couple floors leaving wood desks stools books computers and everything else, want more?!?!


Building 7 would not have collapsed from a few fires, had little damage from failing debris meaning structure intact, would not fall in a few seconds, would not fall from the top down, would not fall into its own footprint, would not have two fracture lines vertically on the sides of the building, would have some explanation in the nist report, would not be hot enough to smolder for months, would not be hot enough to melt steel, would not collapse its basement, if building 4 had 1/4 of the building still standing after the debris leveled the rest and that 1/4 had to be dropped with demo cranes later then there is not reason for 7 to have every dropped,why announce (bbc,cnn)  that 7 had dropped when it hadn't if no one already knew, what happened to all the investigations that the building held paperwork for- are they still ongoing,Want more?!?!


World trade center, why would a buildings power be shut down for communication wiring, just to let you all know the systems are 100% independant of eachother and there is no reason on earth for doing that, if there was warning (which officials have said many times) why relax security, if the buildings were losing money for the port auth. which made them chose to lease it for 99 years why reward the "investor" with a grand total of 8.4 bil $, who made the money on the recycleing instead of investigating it, where is the gold, why does it seem that there was a ton of insider bank account transactions, would bought the "put" options, why when security is relaxed and cameras/card locks down would you "rewire" a building, you did that work and where is the permit for it, who is now paying for the new construction, and who all benefits from it. Turning a couple hundred grand into a new super tower with no mortgage is a neat trick.


Pentagon, wheres the plane, wheres the plane, wheres the plane, how did the hole get into the buildings,why is the damaged light poles and yet no debris, why are there windows intact in the place where the plane would have hit, how did a plane "vaporize" for the first time ever and yet make holes in an armored building, did I say wheres the plane, where video of the impact every inche of the building is under camera, why did the section collapse, not enough heat to burn books and stools, what was in the wood box, where are the bodies of the occupants, why is the plane still listed active, wheres the luggage , wheres the seats, wheres the plane, how does an elephant of an airplane invade the world's most secure airspace, and how does that elephant do a u turn in that airspace, hours after we "know" we are under an attack, why is there enough energy to vaporize an entire plane and its contents but the few so called parts of the skin are completely fresh and clean, how does a couple engine parts end up at a crash scene that could not of came from the type of plane that was said to hit it, how does a wheel shrink, no plane has ever crashed no matter the speed without leaving nearly all the plane left, how does a plane hit this building and barely burns leaving wood, paper, plastic, and everything but hit the wtc and somehow melts steel, and how does the plane even pull the last manuever when the fly by wire software system WILL NOT ALLOW such turns to be made, why does the FDR black box data not match the needed altitudes or angles to hit the building if it is the data from that plane, how does that box survive and yet so many others don't, remember the plane was vaporized, wheres the other engine, and how did the one engine shrink, why was evidence removed before it was tagged in its locations (a federal crime), Want more?!?!


Flight 93 how does it land in chicago and yet cash in penn., how does it leave no bodies luggage seats etc, how does most of it evaporate, how does it for the first time in history leave a crater, how is it not intercepted many hours after attacks, how are cell phones working, how is it that the scene is locked down almost imediately, how is it forgotten, how is it that most of the plane was vaporized but not enough heat to damage a nearby house, want more?!?!


Passports,passenger logs,remains,lists of the dead from the planes, and on and on and on


How is it that people did this
and how is it that so many accept the lies
how is it that you fabricate explanations to support it
is this a magic plane theory, like the magic bullet that hit jfk,

You sir are either so dependant on this system that you would rather live in this muck, or a supporter of the system that would allow, help, condone what happened.

WTF?!? Let me get this strait! You sir are the one conspiring against the government by spreading conspiracies about how the government perpitrated an attack on americans and you call me benidict? You got great big brass balls! Your the one committing treason and you try to act like i'm the benidict?  OMFG! All because i offer a alternative viewpoint and present possibilities that support that maybe the government wasn't responcible and actual terrorists comitted these acts? You ask if i work for the government? what are ya goofy? If i worked for the government do you think that for one minute you would be spreading this propaganda right now? What about my technology would a government employee be releasing their technology so readily? I think not! You cannot even reason wiether or not i'm a government employee?! What ever made me think you could understand the obvious like terrorists flew planes into their intended targets?  :-\

Two words "prove it"

Prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that the accused terrorist did it.

Why weren't highjacking transponder codes used on a single plane.

Btw, I have not conspired anything, I have made observations, if those observations say that someone has done an act as horrendous as this, then that person/persons are not a part of a government I am under.

Fallout of 9-11, war on terrorism, 1st search for Bin Laudin, never found him, and had no reason to, he had nothing to do with it as far as the evidence can show. But he's a terrorist, so we'll invade a country anyway. Afganistan told us if we could show proof they would not only allow us in but would help us find him, we show no evidence (to them or to our citizens) and then we invade. Then we see a video tape, that don't not prove anything.

2nd Sadam, he was put in power by us, given weapons from us, and now he's a bad guy (I have no reliable evidence to say he was or wasn't a bad guy), we are told he has WMDs (what does that have to do with our search for Bin Lauden, in the words of our president "there is no link between sadam and bin laudin", but we go in anyway, and do we find weapons, no we don't. But we do find sadam.

We mean to tell me we can't find a leader of a terrorist organization, with what resources he has, but we can find a man who ruled over a country, who had all the military at his disposal, and enough money too. He couldn't find a way out but Osama can. Thats rich.

And if you remember your american history my friend you will remember that it was a british gov. and Benedict was trying to keep it that way, holding on to the gov. that was mistreating the people and not allowing them a voice on what was to be done. In all reality it was started over the fact that the brits had ruled to take away the colonial money and make us use the brit pound which carried with it heavy taxes from brit banks. Which was to be used to pay the taxes we have all been told about. The colonial dollar didn't have interest owed to a bank, and could be used here without them being able to track and tax it. So someone who stands behind a gov. that is doing wrong by its people, mistreating them, not listening to them, taxing the piss out of them, allowing us to be invaded, helping the invaders weaken our  society, killing/hurting/imprisoning/enslaving other peoples who have never done anything to us, would be a Benedict in my book. Shall I continue... Bill of Rights, they died so I can say what I am saying now, they died so they could stop the things that were happening then, to give us the right and obligation to stop it from happening again.

When you see where this is going, where the inevitable course lies, maybe you will do something to prepare yourself, or maybe you will just close your eyes again.


Prove the explanation we have been given for the course of action taken. Prove it as if you were being accused of it. Lets restart this analysis again. Forget the buildings and prove who did it, prove they were on the planes, prove that they had the ability to fly those planes, to navigate those planes,(its not as if you can stop and ask directions) that would be a start.

No one person group or entity can prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. neither side of the debate has enough REAL evidence to support their findings. So far i'm the only one here that is offering an unbiased opinion. Oh believe me if the government did it or I can find enough evidence that they did. I would be on their case like stink on shit. This administration sux and need to be hung for crimes against the constitution and "we the people". The list goes on and on the things that they are responcible for. starting with rigging an election, destroying rights, freedoms, and liberties as well as lieing to us, Destroying our sense of security and privacy by warrentless wiretaps and the checks and balances surrounding them. I'm sure the americans that frequent this forum could come up with hundreds or thousands of other things that the administration has done without any doubt and a clear and concise paper trail exists.

I, like you and many others want to believe that the administration is behind 9/11 as well. HOWEVER... I will not make that claim or defend it untill i can without a shadow of a doubt and that means exploring *ALL* possibilities known and unknown untill they are exhausted. I have been falsly accused and know what kind of damage that can be done. as a result I advocate for the real truth and true justice. I'm not going to be so simple minded as to go oohh look the building fell like an implosion so it was imploded, Ohh i heard a big boom so therefore explosives was used, Jet fuel don't burn hot enough to melt iron so therminite was used, and on and on. That is a lynching mob mentality and i'll not be a part of that.

You prove it! prove to me that the administration without a shadow of doubt did this. That shouldn't be too hard? Concidering i allready dislike the administration.

3/4" chunks of people a block away? what question does that pose? It's a simple answer Shreaded by the impact of the plane and ejected from the building landing a block away. But what does 3/4" chunks of people have to do with who actually perpitrated it? what does it contribute to such an investigation?
Like WTC 7 who gives a flying flip wiether it was demoloshed or fell due to structural damage, debris and fire. it was evacuated! What point does knowing anything about WTC 7 have to do with who orchistrated 9/11?  ::)     

I will go through this in reverse order from what you said Ring. Knowing that wtc 7 was intentionally brought down does a lot for understanding all that happened that day. Even if the towers fell from a plane it does not explain wtc7, which would mean that the whole event was planned by people with access to the buildings, which gives us a clue as to who to look at. They would have also needed the equipment to plan devices, and understanding of how to bring buildings down effectively. What and who was using the building can also help us to narrow down the responsiblity, who gained from it. These things help us to narrow down the possible suspects.


The 3/4" human remains on the roofs was to demonstrate the explosive nature of the buildings collapse. I don't was to sound cold in this, but a little necessary, I want everyone to know that I understand that we are talking about people, fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, sons, and daughters, they had lives that need to be respected, that being said. If people were inside the buildings and yet bone fragments were expelled further than the major debris field then it says to me that the interior of the floors would under explosive prior to the floors collapse. Given the size of the remains there was a tremendous amount of force released (enough to tear a person to shreads) prior to the floors fall. And air pressure doesn't do that to people, explosive force does. If the floors were simply pancaking then it would have contained those people inside.

The point I will make about who the admin was involved is pretty simple. Who had the power/control to stand down our jets from intercepting those planes. Who hamstringed the investigate, who accused people who could not have done it, who had the acts and bills already drafted, who stated that something like this would be needed to begin change, who is benefiting from the recourse after, who had the resources to allow,hamper anyone from stopping it, and allowing the parts to be placed. The Biggest of those is the intercept jets, If norad can't stop a passenger plane from hitting the pentagon, how could they stop a high speed bomber from getting to any target it desired. Norad is not that incompitant, and alone tells me someone inside acted deliberately. All the preprepared actions/documents tells me without a doubt. The fact that secret service didn't immediately secure the pres is also a dead give away, if "terrorist" could hit two towers, why not a school house.

I applaud your objectiveness admist this onslaught from us. But I have seen enough evidence that I have no doubt that certain people in the admin. knew and helped, that certain private citizens knew and helped, that certain people foreign to this country knew and helped, that certain military personel knew and helped, and that may people and organizations didn't know but were used to help. If you have yet to see enough evidence that is fine, but I implore you as a thinking person to allow all the evidence to be wieghed equally. Don't just say no to it, look at all the evidence all the movies, all the professionals, and all the repercusions. To say "I don't know who did it, because lack of evidence of any argument" is a much different statement than to support an explanation that is flawed but accepted by most.

And the fact that you acknowledgement what our government has done in the past and present, and believe that it needs to be relooked at and made better, says to me that you do not support all their actions and therefore I retract the Benedict statement. So many people say " we have it better here than anyone else in the world so shut up", I am not satisfied by what they call better, and to stop trying to improve is a crime against our forefathers. Is the evidence I have enough to convict, proly not, is it enough to really investigate, yes, is it enough for us to stop passing laws against our own people, yes, is it enough to stop invasions of other countries, yes, is it enough to stop war profitteering, yes, is it enough to make a change in how our system works, absolutely.

Thermite was there. aluminum oxide was delivered by the planes themselfs. molten iron I say yes so both were present.
But don't listen to me.
http://news-service.stanford.edu/pr/00/aluminum511.html

Its actually iron oxide and aluminum in a powdered form that makes thrermite, and the sulfur that was detected would tend to lead to thermate. In order for the reaction to work the mixture must be reduced to small particlulates. And the article is, well kinda not good. Rust is chemically known as iron oxide, the article states that aluminum doesn't rust, yes it does its known as aluminum oxide. Pure aluminum doesn't last in an oxygen enviroment however alloys with surfaces treatments do. They look plain aluminum but their not. So if thermite/thermate was used it wasn't the planes. But the proof of of that would be on the steel but its gone now.


http://www.asminternational.org/images2/cof/centen_1003.pdf
http://www.schemedesigners.com/Article-AOPA-Bonanza-Paint-August2001.htm

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on August 04, 2007, 07:16:43 AM

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
The point was and I didn't make it apparent. through doing such is a lessen learned. if i try it with 3 sticks of wood insufficient heat is obtained. 100 pieces of wood isn't enough, now 500 pieces is sufficient to melt the aluminium from the iron leaving the iron red hot. Ok I concede that we are talking about iron in the case of the wtc. However the point is that if i add more fuel to the fire the end result is a hot enough fire to melt the aluminium from the iron.

That doesn't negate its max temp. Max temp is determined by the speed and energy of the oxidation. Molecules always have these kinds of factors limiting the ammount of energy you can release in a time span. The point I was making is nothing in that building was capable of producing those temperatures. (except the explosives) Use wood and jet fuel in your smelter... If your right the unit will melt itself. 5$ says your safe...

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
Ok i agree wood does not burn as hot under normal conditions. However change the conditions and you can have a hotter than "normal" fire. simply inject oxygen. Refering a jet engine to a blast furnace is just wrong. Now on the other hand it is in effect closer to a gas axe. Maximum possible temp again i agree however there is also a flash point involved.

"Refering a jet engine to a blast furnace is just wrong." Ummmm...  What about swapping coal or coke for JET FUEL. So you say the jet fuel with moving air acted like a blast furnace in WTC, but when the air and fuel move through an engine suddenly its not like a blast furnace??? Explain...

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
"Why would he say it doesn't exist???" Denial. I know that makes your point as well. However given that I cannot seem to get what i concider some of the brightest minds in the world to understand how it come to be. I'm certain that he himself don't understand it's presence so he in his own mind denies it's existance. simply because he cannot even begin to comprehend how it came to be. He cannot explain it so he don't want to discuss it and the easy and fastest way is to deny it's existance. Which brings to bare the whole point of Witness reliability bieng well, unreliable.

HE HEADED THE "FALL AND BURN" SECTION OF THE REPORT!!!!
Thats not something I want ignored! Thats my POINT!!!
You must now understand why there must be a new investigation.

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AMFall time: newton covered that maybe you need to address some of his works again as You won't listen to me.

WTC7 fall time: 6.5seconds
free fall in vac: 6.0seconds

Due to "wind resistance" there's simply no extra time left for any pancaking to take place. Per floor fall time would be measured in two times; fall time and resistance time. You understand fall time, but you need to analise resistance time. There is an exchange of energy that needs to take place when one object turns another to dust... This would slow its fall speed considerably on each impact. Please research this point for yourself. It's simply impossible from a physics stand point. No extra time!

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
Citing pancaking of floors which i doubt was the case as the structure partially twisted as it fell. which is another point i make that you dismiss readily but evidence proves different.

So if pancaking didn't happen why was concrete turned to dust? and steel melted? Where does all the friction come from? (Silly question considering prefall molten steel)
You never adressed that by the way... If it was the fall and friction why was there several fountains of molten steel spotted?

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
Molten iron: well a fire was involved, enough heat was generated to melt iron with the potential as the structure fell to blast oxygen past or into the allready red hot iron.

You still haven't sited a source, so untill you show me something proving you can achieve those kinds of heat with those fuels you're talking out your ass. I've shown several sources that clearly state the max tamp of jet fuel is 900 celsius. Show me something scientific!

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
I'm not skewing the facts the firemen are. I don't hear explosions. all i hear is a collapsing building going through it's last throws of resistance.

Yeah, because you watching a youtube clip should be a much better judge of that.

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
do a side by side comparison of WTC collapse and a building bieng imploded by soundtrack alone. you will hear a distinct difference between ignited charges and shearing structural supports as the building twists and collapses.

Here this is brand new, it required a lot of stabilizing.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/744529/9_11_new_collapse_footage_rare_demo_clearly_seen/
Side by side no audio, but you heard the audio in last clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73qK4j32iuo
Mini version of wtc 7...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAyyHQQXX_0

Now you find me a video of a building falling from structural damage like wtc7 did!

LMAO! Anyone else notice Ring didn't attempt to answer any of these?!?!?!

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 10:46:30 PM

Quote from: HopeForHumanity on August 04, 2007, 04:33:03 PM
May I remind people again, fuel will only explode when under pressure or as a fume. The plane was fueled not to long ago(low fume level), and the plane crashing into the building depressurized the fuel. The accumulative temperature of the ignited fuel could not have melted the steel, infact, coolent on the airplane would have lowered it even more. I remmeber reading somewhere very long ago that all the important executives were told not to come to work that day. Many firemen were already ready before the plane crashed(wtf). The wtc fell as if the floors stacked like pancakes, the same as a controlled demolition.

Don't worry, why would the government have a reason to decieve us? ;) :D

Why does everyone ignore the fact that there was other factors involved? like that the fuel ignited the contents of the building of the effected crash area. what about the fact that the wind was blowing right through the building increasing the temp of the fire.  ::)

I don't know how to say "office materials have low energy density" any clearer.
I don't know how to say "jet fuels max burning temp is 900 celcius" any clearer.

Quote from: ring_theory on August 05, 2007, 01:58:02 PM
Like WTC 7 who gives a flying flip wiether it was demoloshed or fell due to structural damage, debris and fire. it was evacuated! What point does knowing anything about WTC 7 have to do with who orchistrated 9/11?  ::)   

It would have taken more than 5 hours to rig an implosion...
Clearly if the building was demo'ed then someone had advanced warning, and has covered up the use of explosives from the begining. That coupled with the short installation window in a time of panic, clearly illistrates why wtc7 and the related inconsistancies are important.

Would you agree that if explosives where used than they would have been set up in advance?

I didn't respond to your post because i've been addressing your questions and your not even listening. So why bother
::)

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on August 05, 2007, 11:09:04 PM

I don't know how to say "office materials have low energy density" any clearer.
I don't know how to say "jet fuels max burning temp is 900 celcius" any clearer.

maybe a couple of office items have a low energy density but a couple floors worth of office items would definately burn hotter than expected.
900c sure makes a good fire starter when distributed as it was.  ::)

The fires on the 3 floors up around the 80th floor, were suffocated when the floors dropped, not much spread there. Smashed concrete would be very similar to a halon fire extinguisher. And unless all the items were in powder form increasing its surface area to be able to burn each particle almost instantly, prior to the oxygen depriving collapse, there would be more than 4 to 500 degrees. I was on a site where a five story wooden framed building was burned by arsonists. Imagine a five story multi acre pallet bonfire. There was more energy potential in that building then the planes and contents of a good portion of the towers, and yet the structural steel portion of the building survived. A tower crane that was in the center of the building did fall but that was due to the concrete base failed and the crane was twisted when it came down. aluminum inside the structure was melted to nothing, but the steel rod hold downs were intact, all the steel parts were left in the ashes. So even in that case doug fir which is basically a fiberous sponge with high octane hydrocarbons(gas) locked in its sap (lots of sap in fir trees) isn't hot enough. So nothing in that building that was supposed to be there could even in the best circumstances get that hot. And there was little smoke from the fire, it burned almost as perfect as wood can, short of being in a lab and pure oxygen power fed into it.

Quote from: ring_theory on August 05, 2007, 11:47:43 PM

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on August 05, 2007, 11:09:04 PM

I don't know how to say "office materials have low energy density" any clearer.
I don't know how to say "jet fuels max burning temp is 900 celcius" any clearer.

maybe a couple of office items have a low energy density but a couple floors worth of office items would definately burn hotter than expected.
900c sure makes a good fire starter when distributed as it was.  ::)

Your missing the point still...

None of those items will burn hotter than the fuel, and the fuel won't burn hot enough to melt the steel. Please show me proof of otherwise! Airation of fuel (wood, paper, fuel) will allow it oxidize more readily untill it reaches its max temp. Nothing in the building (exept the explosives) could burn hot enough to sever steel coloumbs, or created pools of liquid iron. The energy needed is simply not there. You keep stating that it is, but offer no proof. Show me one link that confirms that office supplies can burn at the 1600 celcius needed to liquify iron. Show me one proof of concept.

~Dingus Mungus

REPEAT...

Quote from: ring_theory on August 05, 2007, 01:58:02 PM
Like WTC 7 who gives a flying flip wiether it was demoloshed or fell due to structural damage, debris and fire. it was evacuated! What point does knowing anything about WTC 7 have to do with who orchistrated 9/11?  ::)   

It would have taken more than 5 hours to rig an implosion...
Clearly if the building was demo'ed then someone had advanced warning, and has covered up the use of explosives from the begining. That coupled with the short installation window in a time of panic, clearly illistrates why wtc7 and the related inconsistancies are important.

Would you agree that if explosives where used than they would have been set up in advance?

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
Ok i agree wood does not burn as hot under normal conditions. However change the conditions and you can have a hotter than "normal" fire. simply inject oxygen. Refering a jet engine to a blast furnace is just wrong. Now on the other hand it is in effect closer to a gas axe. Maximum possible temp again i agree however there is also a flash point involved.

"Refering a jet engine to a blast furnace is just wrong." Ummmm...  What about swapping coal or coke for JET FUEL. So you say the jet fuel with moving air acted like a blast furnace in WTC, but when the air and fuel move through an engine suddenly its not like a blast furnace??? Explain...

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
"Why would he say it doesn't exist???" Denial. I know that makes your point as well. However given that I cannot seem to get what i concider some of the brightest minds in the world to understand how it come to be. I'm certain that he himself don't understand it's presence so he in his own mind denies it's existance. simply because he cannot even begin to comprehend how it came to be. He cannot explain it so he don't want to discuss it and the easy and fastest way is to deny it's existance. Which brings to bare the whole point of Witness reliability bieng well, unreliable.

HE HEADED THE "FALL AND BURN" SECTION OF THE REPORT!!!!
Thats not something I want ignored! Thats my POINT!!!
Do you now understand why there must be a new investigation.

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AMFall time: newton covered that maybe you need to address some of his works again as You won't listen to me.

WTC7 fall time: 6.5seconds
free fall in vac: 6.0seconds

Due to "wind resistance" there's simply no extra time left for any pancaking to take place. Per floor fall time would be measured in two times; fall time and resistance time. You understand fall time, but you need to analise resistance time. There is an exchange of energy that needs to take place when one object turns another to dust... This would slow its fall speed considerably on each impact. Please research this point for yourself. It's simply impossible from a physics stand point. There is no extra time!

DO YOU DISAGREE?

Quote from: ring_theory on August 04, 2007, 03:32:53 AM
do a side by side comparison of WTC collapse and a building bieng imploded by soundtrack alone. you will hear a distinct difference between ignited charges and shearing structural supports as the building twists and collapses.

Here this is brand new, it required a lot of stabilizing.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/744529/9_11_new_collapse_footage_rare_demo_clearly_seen/
Side by side no audio, but you heard the audio in last clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73qK4j32iuo
Mini version of wtc 7...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAyyHQQXX_0

Now you find me a video of a building falling from structural damage like wtc7 did!

Iraq war veteran and experienced demolitions expert blows the cover on 9/11 inside job.

http://nationalwriterssyndicate.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=128&Itemid=2

source of the above link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=167155&mesg_id=167155

Great links Pese!
Lots of sourcing...

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on August 06, 2007, 02:42:22 AM
Great links Pese!
Lots of sourcing...

thank you for the "notice"  for my links,

so i remeber , that this "work" is usefull for others
that search for "knowledge and sources"
see also:

www.pese.150m.com/li.htm

engl. and germ. alternative "daily" NEWS

G.Pese

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on August 06, 2007, 02:16:47 AM

Quote from: ring_theory on August 05, 2007, 11:47:43 PM

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on August 05, 2007, 11:09:04 PM

I don't know how to say "office materials have low energy density" any clearer.
I don't know how to say "jet fuels max burning temp is 900 celcius" any clearer.

maybe a couple of office items have a low energy density but a couple floors worth of office items would definately burn hotter than expected.
900c sure makes a good fire starter when distributed as it was.  ::)

Your missing the point still...

None of those items will burn hotter than the fuel, and the fuel won't burn hot enough to melt the steel. Please show me proof of otherwise! Airation of fuel (wood, paper, fuel) will allow it oxidize more readily untill it reaches its max temp. Nothing in the building (exept the explosives) could burn hot enough to sever steel coloumbs, or created pools of liquid iron. The energy needed is simply not there. You keep stating that it is, but offer no proof. Show me one link that confirms that office supplies can burn at the 1600 celcius needed to liquify iron. Show me one proof of concept.

~Dingus Mungus

I'm done here! Believe whatever you want, however the end result is promoting anarchy and supporting terrorism and in my eyes is the highest form of treason. That detracts from the good that could be done here. I'll not be a part of it!  ::) 

Quote from: ring_theory on August 06, 2007, 01:26:11 PM

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on August 06, 2007, 02:16:47 AM

Quote from: ring_theory on August 05, 2007, 11:47:43 PM

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on August 05, 2007, 11:09:04 PM

I don't know how to say "office materials have low energy density" any clearer.
I don't know how to say "jet fuels max burning temp is 900 celcius" any clearer.

maybe a couple of office items have a low energy density but a couple floors worth of office items would definately burn hotter than expected.
900c sure makes a good fire starter when distributed as it was.  ::)

Your missing the point still...

None of those items will burn hotter than the fuel, and the fuel won't burn hot enough to melt the steel. Please show me proof of otherwise! Airation of fuel (wood, paper, fuel) will allow it oxidize more readily untill it reaches its max temp. Nothing in the building (exept the explosives) could burn hot enough to sever steel coloumbs, or created pools of liquid iron. The energy needed is simply not there. You keep stating that it is, but offer no proof. Show me one link that confirms that office supplies can burn at the 1600 celcius needed to liquify iron. Show me one proof of concept.

~Dingus Mungus

I'm done here! Believe whatever you want, however the end result is promoting anarchy and supporting terrorism and in my eyes is the highest form of treason. That detracts from the good that could be done here. I'll not be a part of it!  ::) 

TRANSLATION:
"Dingus you make good points that I can not disproove, but if I were to acknowledge this "anarchy" will happen."

Do you think the american revolution was "anarchy", what about the civil war? How is fighting against corruption "anarchy"? What makes my observations treason? You can't proove them wrong try as you might. Dick Cheney did buisness in Iraq and Iran during our sanctions in the 90's. Is that not treason??? Of course treason is defined as "knowingly helping an enemy in a time of war" or "working against your own country". So I can see how you would misuse the definition... I'm not commiting treason because my intent is aimed at the people responcible and not our form of government or our citizens. Now the administration on the othere hand: Allowed the Bin Ladens to fly out of US while all planes were grounded, commited our troops in a fiat war for profit against the enemies of our enemies, butchered the constitution in the name of security and extended exectutive powers, and over budgeted our nation so that we have hit 9 trillion in debt which is nearly double the highest previous recorder value. YET HERE YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT MY OPINIONS AND OBSERVATIONS... Why don't you look at the ACTIONS of the men you are defending.

~Dingus Mungus

WAKE THE FUCK UP!

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/744529/9_11_new_collapse_footage_rare_demo_clearly_seen/

Watch it again ring... The floor "collapse" outruns the falling debry for over 10 floors.
Turning whole floors to dust faster than a chunk of concrete can fall through the air.

You can't explain these things away!

~Dingus Mungus

EDIT: My questions should not be this tough... It's your words and assertions that my questions are based on. As long as you weren't making it up as went along, you should have a source for each of my retorts. I can't stop you from ignoring the thread and the truth, but just know I will repost these questions everytime you return.

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on August 06, 2007, 06:42:33 PM
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/744529/9_11_new_collapse_footage_rare_demo_clearly_seen/

Watch it again ring... The floor "collapse" outruns the falling debry for over 10 floors.
Turning whole floors to dust faster than a chunk of concrete can fall through the air.

You can't explain these things away!

~Dingus Mungus

EDIT: My questions should not be this tough... It's your words and assertions that my questions are based on. As long as you weren't making it up as went along, you should have a source for each of my retorts. I can't stop you from ignoring the thread and the truth, but just know I will repost these questions everytime you return.

I've allready covered your stupid questions and i'm not going thru this nightmare of a thread to quote them because you wasn't paying attentiopn the first time. i suggest you reread my replies as they are mostly all that is left.
::)

LMAO!?!?!
You "covered" how floors could fall faster than free falling debris?

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

a movie all should see

interesting angle, but I am leary of ethic type stuff. In a verbal disertation his info seems to stand, but I would want a lot more hard proof before I will go to far down that path, too much stigma. We can be biased against certain religious groups of muslims, certain groups of communists, certain groups of a lot of things, but that one is like picking up 100% uranium 238.

Quote from: Nastrand2000 on August 08, 2007, 11:17:59 PM
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

a movie all should see

Good documentation if you watch the whole thing, but definitely contains some conjecture. The first 10 full minutes of the movie contains zero information, just mood enhancing images and spooky music. Who ever made that call needs to be sacked. I'll have to research the other jesus like anchient gods, as I've heard the theory before but in a different context and many of the gods were not listed like in this movie. It's always been pretty obvious that most religions were rewritten when the romans were in power. Very interesting flick all in all!

Thanks for the new documentry,
~Dingus Mungus

Hello,
The only reason I joined this forum is because of this thread. My apologies. I even am not quite sure what overunity is yet...sorry again. First of all, I voted to keep the thread on, but I don't think "we have to expose the inside job", what I mean is, I am still trying to decide where I stand in all of this, I really don't know if there was an inside job. I saw loose change the other day and it got me to ask some questions, but I am not so quick to jump on the Bush Nazi band wagon. I looked to the internet for rebuttals and I have found much information...however, I have not found enough to convince me that this absolutely was a terrorist attack, which is very very disturbing to me...and here I am now, still searching. Like Dingus said, I think we should just focus on the factual or what seems to be more factual than others (i.e. cruise missile hitting the pentagon), which seems to me to be a good place to start and the most obvious.

Ok, I have spent the last two days reading every post, all 35 pages, going through almost every link, in this monster of a thread. @Everyone but especially @Dingus and Ring: Thank you so much guys! This is what I wanted, an actual debate between the two views with lots of supported documentation...instead of just a website extensively supporting it's one-sided view...all of you guys are so smart, seriously, I am just a regular dude with some simple questions, and I think they are worth asking considering a monumental event such as 911...

@Ring: according to http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

"In no instance did NIST report that steel in the WTC towers melted due to the fires. The melting point of steel is about 1,500 degrees Celsius (2,800 degrees Fahrenheit). Normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g., jet fuel) fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,000 degrees Fahrenheit). "

Now, we all know that there was melted steel sighted, right? There are eye witness statements and pictures to prove this, yes? So...it was obviously there...so...if this explanation could be dismissed as you have said, the objects and materials in the WTC could provide the necessary heat and energy when burned to melt the steel (as seen) OR as you have said, (not direct quotes sorry) the overall mass and the momentum of the structure falling could provide enough energy to generate the necessary heat, like a furnace, to produce this melted steel that is before us....then why did the NIST say (or that other guy say) there was no melted steel found (there was) when they could just as easily said "yes, there was some melted steel present, but this was due to (insert one of those things you said), end of story" If these claims of yours are so convincing and full proof (perhaps they are, I am very stupid), surely an organization such as NIST, full of intelligent peoples, would have thought to mention this, instead outright lying to us. What do you think?

@Dingo:
First,
Looking again at http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

"6. How could the WTC towers collapse in only 11 seconds (WTC 1) and 9 seconds (WTC 2)?speeds that approximate that of a ball dropped from similar height in a vacuum (with no air resistance)?

In other words, the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the 12 to 28 stories (WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively) falling on the supporting structure below (which was designed to support only the static weight of the floors above and not any dynamic effects due to the downward momentum) so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that it (the structure below) was unable to stop or even to slow the falling mass. The downward momentum felt by each successive lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass.

From video evidence, significant portions of the cores of both buildings (roughly 60 stories of WTC 1 and 40 stories of WTC 2) are known to have stood 15 to 25 seconds after collapse initiation before they, too, began to collapse. Neither the duration of the seismic records nor video evidence (due to obstruction of view caused by debris clouds) is reliable indicators of the total time it took for each building to collapse completely."

This seems to be NIST's explanation on how the twin towers fell as fast as they did. Why could the WTC 7 not do the same?

Also, have you seen this: http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm ?
This guy says the WTC 7 received a lot more structural damage than the conspirators make it out to be. What are your comments on his pictures? And on the whole article regarding WTC 7 in general?

@Both of you guys: WTC 7 seems to be the key for me. No jet fuel, even if it fell down due to structural damage caused by a part of a plane, it is certainly not to the massive scale as the twin towers, and to me would not explain it falling at controlled demolition time...I don't know...this is probably why it is taking the NIST so long with WTC 7 report, why do y'all think it is taking so long anyway?
Finally, I think we should demand an official explanation on the melted steel, don't y'all?   

I'm done now, talk soon and thanks very much!

J

I understand the POTUS and congress have the worst rating in history, but this thread and the poll results are absurd. ::)

And since when are the laws of Physics absolute?

I can't believe that you guys actually believe that the US government was responsible for bringing down the twin towers!
  What a load of rubbish! 

 8) its so nice to be blind, nothing hurts untill it hits you, then its to late, your dead.

First, how would the nist know if there was or was not melted steel considering that they did not examine the debris as it was quickly loaded on trucks and shipped to china,india,korea, and was sold to them for less than a new jersey plant was willing to buy it for. It was left out because of lack of actually physical evidence research.

Wtc 1 10.2secs, wtc 9.6 secs, the debris would actually take energy out of the equation by absorbing the energy of the floors above it, think of the debris like a pad, or pillow on the stack of wood a karate guy it trying to break. The energy would disapate as it was used to crumple a floor, and at best the incoming mass would tend to lean away from the energy absorbing building and fall into free air much more easily.

If building 7 was so very damaged it would have fell intothe direction of the damage, like a tree being cut down. The lateral supports would have pulled the undamaged side over on top of the damaged side as it collapsed. However that could not have happened because the debris the fell into 7 was minimal, building 3, 4, 5, and 6, were around 1 and 2, building 7 was on the other side of that perimeter. the circle of building took the brunt of the debris, 7 was not damaged very much. On top of that, lets conjecture if 80% of 7 was damaged at the base and couldn't be seen, so it fell, how could 5 and 6 still stand with massive holes completely through them cutting lateral supports and vertical supports alike, to beat that, how did building 4 loss 3/4 of the building to falling debris, yes 3/4 of building 4 was dropped to the ground and yet 1/4 of it had to be forcefully demo'ed at a later date because it was still standing.

And no official explaination can describe single pass 45 degree and straight cuts through 4 plus inche thick steel. And no official theory can address the FACT that the antena which was attached to the main support collumns fell 30 feet before the rest of the building, which indicates main support collumn failure, which is in direct contradiction of the official story that the floor trusses weakened and the fell causeing the collapse, which by the way, if the trusses did weaken and sag that would have been all they did, the shear value of the welds and rivots would have held the wieght, they were designed to do so. And even if  they gave way they could not have done so in a uniform manner. But if you had an insurance policy on a group of buildings that you really didn't want, and you didn't want to be sued if your buildings damaged other peoples buildings, you could allow your buildings to act like a buffer zone, but that would leave 7 outside that perimeter of damage so it would have to be dealt with separately. Insurance total payout on complex, 8.4 bil, lease value on 1 and 2 3.2 bil, paid a couple hundred thousand, not bad in six weeks.

and all these ppl are still in power, i guess killers are above the law now, im amazed this history shows that this repeats over and over and, when will it stop ?, they make the laws behind our backs,they kill us and we let them,it just goes on and on,we are the rats running in there wheel and generating power for them, does any one have any ideas how to stop this?, surely it must be time to put an end to this once and for all and put a measure into place to stop it from happening again, does any body have any real answers or do we just keep on saying yeah we know and do nothing,when video is held back and evidence is taken away and reports say * we dont know*, to me this screams * we will just keep killing you and youll like it*, any how i didnt come here to make trouble, i just think its time for some action,some ideas,this planet is in a very bad way, we ALL need to stand up and speak out and put the killers where they should be,and let the information out that is suppressed befor the human race is mutated to the point where we for get what is right and what is wrong... i think in some cases its way to late, ppl are dieing every sec of the day just becasue they have no food and water, yet billions are spent on weps to so called protect us, how long is it befor they are turned on us ?, not long i think,im gonna stop here, i could go on all night, excuse my spelling etc, i left school early,thats my excuse, but just to recap....they kill us,and we lap it up and let them do it over and over,then we sit around for years talking about it while they plan to do it again.....time for change?. ???

Ok if changing the cycle is what we want then, we must do something different than what has been done in the past. First lets ID the problem.
1 Uncontrolled gov
2 Secrets in gov
3 Secret groups
4 To much power/money in the hands of the wrong people
5 to much control over the masses by too many different means

come on and add to this list, lets make a complete list.

First things first, lets get rid of public schools. Can you say it with me; Social Engineering. Social Engineering is whats creating the problem. The cold war started to experiment with it big time, and it's a very valuable asset in all socialist systems. Some people understand the pain of social class systems, like child support or mass welfare. Taking away from all including the hard working people, to give to people who refuse to work. Socialism abuses these things to the max, and in return they get there blinded tax paying people. This is the matrix gentlemen, and we are just little tax batteries giving away our money to control freaks. The united states is 100 times worse than any dictatorship. Most have no idea how government systems work. They want us to like a Democracy because they know how easy it is to manipulate. Pre Nazi Germany was exactly this way, Hitler understood how to manipulate it, and you know the rest. This is whats happening in the US. There is one major difference though, they don't need a specific group of people to blame problems on, they just need the media, police, and public schools to calm us down. Another thing that creates reason is the crap party blaming. Republicans, Democrats, it's all used to make us believe in a party, yet we are all worshiping the same thing, THE GOVERNMENT! Freedom is just our blind fold. We are forgetting what really creates freedom, and thats our peoples willingness to defend it. The government doesn't create the freedom, it's the public. Look at all the European countries and their riotes, those people actualy attempt to get things done, and they do! They get set vacation time, high minimum payment settings, and laws restricting work abuse. Yes! They are only allowed to work so long before they get a break, and get pay when there not working! The US government cant defend itself against one thing, the internet. People like us info freaks, are trying to let the word out about their coverups and their lies like the 9/11 incident. Eventualy their sick system will break down because the internet cannot be controlled, and intellectuals, hackers, crackers, info freaks will kick ass. The public will become so angered that we will go into another revolution, renewing the system and restoring true constitutional control. We will eventualy have our Free Republic back, but time will tell. Let this thread discuss, it is another step towards freedom.

Quote from: HopeForHumanity on August 12, 2007, 02:18:51 AM
First things first, lets get rid of public schools. Can you say it with me; Social Engineering. Social Engineering is whats creating the problem. The cold war started to experiment with it big time, and it's a very valuable asset in all socialist systems. Some people understand the pain of social class systems, like child support or mass welfare. Taking away from all including the hard working people, to give to people who refuse to work. Socialism abuses these things to the max, and in return they get there blinded tax paying people. This is the matrix gentlemen, and we are just little tax batteries giving away our money to control freaks. The united states is 100 times worse than any dictatorship. Most have no idea how government systems work. They want us to like a Democracy because they know how easy it is to manipulate. Pre Nazi Germany was exactly this way, Hitler understood how to manipulate it, and you know the rest. This is whats happening in the US. There is one major difference though, they don't need a specific group of people to blame problems on, they just need the media, police, and public schools to calm us down. Another thing that creates reason is the crap party blaming. Republicans, Democrats, it's all used to make us believe in a party, yet we are all worshiping the same thing, THE GOVERNMENT! Freedom is just our blind fold. We are forgetting what really creates freedom, and thats our peoples willingness to defend it. The government doesn't create the freedom, it's the public. Look at all the European countries and their riotes, those people actualy attempt to get things done, and they do! They get set vacation time, high minimum payment settings, and laws restricting work abuse. Yes! They are only allowed to work so long before they get a break, and get pay when there not working! The US government cant defend itself against one thing, the internet. People like us info freaks, are trying to let the word out about their coverups and their lies like the 9/11 incident. Eventualy their sick system will break down because the internet cannot be controlled, and intellectuals, hackers, crackers, info freaks will kick ass. The public will become so angered that we will go into another revolution, renewing the system and restoring true constitutional control. We will eventualy have our Free Republic back, but time will tell. Let this thread discuss, it is another step towards freedom.

yes i agree, no one owns or will ever have full control of the internet. after all the internet is actually made of independent servers that connect to each other. i think the internet is actually what the bible refers to the beast in revelations for some reason but who knows. maybe ;)

also the internet only exists because of OPEN SOURCE...

peace

This is good info
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936

EVERYONE READ UP ON RON PAUL!!!

Americas last chance! He said on Alex Jones he favored a new investigation that answered the unanswered questions, but doesn't believe the government as whole was involved. He believes the federal reserve is raping your cash values. He believes the IRS is unconstitutional. He believes federal laws are unconstiturional and wishes to reliquish power back to the states.

Please, if you're of age and voting in the next election, then vote Ron Paul. You will be amazed at what he can accomplish for us as a whole. Returning value to the dollar, and promoting personal liberty in America like we have never seen before.

~Dingus Mungus

I was thinking about someday starting a anti Oregon police state walk. It would be wise to start in sub urban areas. I don't like to admit it, but it seems violence will be the answere in the end. It is our right and responsiblity to fight for freedom in anyway nessacary. Maybe violence won't be reached in the end, but from what I observe, people simply can't understand our disgusting system. For now it will start on the internet. I am young, but I am learning perl and c++. I am starting to understand the internet and computers in a much deeper way than most people. I am planning a chat client that will use a custom encryption system, be open source, and give people a way to communicate without feeling their privacy is being violated. 8)

Quote from: d3adp00l on August 12, 2007, 06:49:09 PM
This is good info
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936

Sure international banking owns america. However what brought us to this point is the Unions and we are cheap and import the cheap crap. Totally disregarding the fact that we should export ALOT MORE. The union is jacking up production costs and gives the worker little or no incentive to work harder or produce more. Manufacturers should present and i wholly support "piece work" getting paid by the piece really does inspire employee's and gives them a definate incentive to produce more. Currently the high cost of production is directly reflecting on the final cost. The increased cost is not very appealing to the worlds market.

The real money is spread among many clearinghouses funded by donations. Available to those entities that meet certain criteria as to qualify for funding. Human services is largely funded by these clearinghouses.

But really what is the alternative? I got it! The barter system! Oh that'll set us back a few centuries. I better get to fixing the hog barn and turn the corn crib into a hen house. I feel a depression coming on.   

Hi Dingus!

Looking again at http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

"6. How could the WTC towers collapse in only 11 seconds (WTC 1) and 9 seconds (WTC 2)?speeds that approximate that of a ball dropped from similar height in a vacuum (with no air resistance)?

In other words, the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the 12 to 28 stories (WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively) falling on the supporting structure below (which was designed to support only the static weight of the floors above and not any dynamic effects due to the downward momentum) so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that it (the structure below) was unable to stop or even to slow the falling mass. The downward momentum felt by each successive lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass.

From video evidence, significant portions of the cores of both buildings (roughly 60 stories of WTC 1 and 40 stories of WTC 2) are known to have stood 15 to 25 seconds after collapse initiation before they, too, began to collapse. Neither the duration of the seismic records nor video evidence (due to obstruction of view caused by debris clouds) is reliable indicators of the total time it took for each building to collapse completely."

This seems to be NIST's explanation on how the twin towers fell as fast as they did. Why could the WTC 7 not do the same?

Also, have you seen this: http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm ?
This guy says the WTC 7 received a lot more structural damage than the conspirators make it out to be. What are your comments on his pictures? And on the whole article regarding WTC 7 in general?

Thanks!

J

Hi again Dingus! A quick follow-up question:

under section 13 in
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

"....Under certain circumstances it is conceivable for some of the steel in the wreckage to have melted after the buildings collapsed. Any molten steel in the wreckage was more likely due to the high temperature resulting from long exposure to combustion within the pile than to short exposure to fires or explosions while the buildings were standing.  "

What is your response to this? Is this sufficient enough for you in regards to explaining the molten steel findings? Just curious.

J

Can someone else handle this... I just spent the last month explaining it to ring to no avail. I really don't have time to get sucked right back in to this rediculous debate. Any chance you can go back through the thread and read when we all discussed these points? Also I posted video that shows the north face of WTC7... no hole... no damage. Just debris piled up right to the front door, but the face of the building was fine. The "spire" that stood for an extra 5 seconds max. Is shown in one of the controlled demo theory videos. You can see it being made, by 3 mistimed explosions.

Again... I'm simply too busy to play this 911 truth/bullshit game right now.

My main points are:
LIQUID MOLTEN STEEL PRE COLAPSE!
WTC7 FELL AS FAST AS THE CHUNKS OF STUFF IN FREE FALL!

I'm sure you think there is a scientific explations you can spout off over and over, but I don't have time to play that game.

~Dingus Mungus

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on August 13, 2007, 04:22:43 PM
Can someone else handle this... I just spent the last month explaining it to ring to no avail. I really don't have time to get sucked right back in to this rediculous debate. Any chance you can go back through the thread and read when we all discussed these points? Also I posted video that shows the north face of WTC7... no hole... no damage. Just debris piled up right to the front door, but the face of the building was fine. The "spire" that stood for an extra 5 seconds max. Is shown in one of the controlled demo theory videos. You can see it being made, by 3 mistimed explosions.

Again... I'm simply too busy to play this 911 truth/bullshit game right now.

My main points are:
LIQUID MOLTEN STEEL PRE COLAPSE!
WTC7 FELL AS FAST AS THE CHUNKS OF STUFF IN FREE FALL!

I'm sure you think there is a scientific explations you can spout off over and over, but I don't have time to play that game.

~Dingus Mungus

Ok i'll handle it np.   

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on August 13, 2007, 04:22:43 PM
Can someone else handle this... I just spent the last month explaining it to ring to no avail. I really don't have time to get sucked right back in to this rediculous debate. Any chance you can go back through the thread and read when we all discussed these points? Also I posted video that shows the north face of WTC7... no hole... no damage. Just debris piled up right to the front door, but the face of the building was fine. The "spire" that stood for an extra 5 seconds max. Is shown in one of the controlled demo theory videos. You can see it being made, by 3 mistimed explosions.

Again... I'm simply too busy to play this 911 truth/bullshit game right now.

My main points are:
LIQUID MOLTEN STEEL PRE COLAPSE!
WTC7 FELL AS FAST AS THE CHUNKS OF STUFF IN FREE FALL!

I'm sure you think there is a scientific explations you can spout off over and over, but I don't have time to play that game.

~Dingus Mungus

Hey, it's cool. We are all busy so...whatever. As I already wrote, I spent about two days going through every page of this thread, sorry, I did not see your answers to my questions. Anyone out there can correct me if I am wrong, I will not be ashamed to admit it. But if you don't want to answer them, or if you feel like your repeating yourself, then sorry to bother you.

Let's see...let me try another one out on you. Who would you go to if you want to submit your thoughts or findings on the matter, to have some kind of effect on the government, start some kind of an investigation? I mean like, have you gone to some kind investigation agency and said "look. the government is behind all this shit, and this is why..." ? Then I guess it would end up in court some how. Has anyone done this? Results? I hear so much theory and so much what seems to be proof...not much action though...so many people are saying the government is the bad peeps, since there is so much evidence, you think some organization would have stood up and said "we are going to take this to court and charge these assholes", you know? If the government is indeed behind this, and we are so sure of it, what are we going to DO about this? Just talk (and bitch)?? Please tell me.

Also, I have read so many debunking 911 myths, NIST articles, what I want to see now is more counters, I have seen websites dedicated to picking the Loose Change video part-by-part, saying why it is bullshit. What about part-by-part rebuttals saying what that website is bullshit and so on. Tiresome I know, but something may come of it. For instance, I often site from this website: http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

here is it's rebuttal

http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/nist/WTC_FAQ_reply.html

Anyone know of any other links of rebuttals-to-rebuttals?

Thanks.

Oh Christ... I really hope I don't have to waste another week on this debate... Right now my focus is on campaigning for my candidate. This debate doesn't help me do that...

1) I don't believe the government launched the attacks, I believe they used them to push an agenda. I do however believe that a small group of people in high political power stood by and let the attack happen.

2) Loose change is bullshit... Roughly 80% of it is conspiracy nut job banter. A total attempt to discredit others.

3) I advocate a new investigation, thats it. NIST reports do not account for molten iron, fall times, or even offer a explanation for wtc7 collapse. Many people are accusing the government, because they are covering things up. Lots of evidence is still classified, which causes people to suspect them... Again my position is: We need a new totally transparent investigation.

Now you reply: "Well even if they did another investigation you won't like the results." to which I reply "All I want is a new investigation that tackles a lot of these 911 myths as well as the physicly impossible fall time of wtc7 and the intense heat required for such a event to happen. Then you reply: "The floors were only made to sustain a static load. Why wouldn't they fall like that while on fire?" to which I would reply "that would make sence if the internal columbs kept standing, but they fell faster than the building did. Hence the 'crimp' in the roof prefall."

Can you see why this gets us nowhere... I don't have time to go back and forth quoting people and pulling apart their logic each and every day. My 2 points have not been challanged propperly. Molten steel pre-collapse, and fall times. Look through the vast collection of data in this thread and you'll either agree or not. At this point though I don't care. I can't change your mind... Its never going to happen, as this isn't even a debate. It's more like a religious argument since no one changes their stance on the topic... EVER!!!

~Dingus Mungus

While I don't want to see the thread removed in the name of censorship, I disagree with a lot of the info contained in it. So to put it bluntly: Why would I want to spend all my time defending a thread, when our nation needs defending?

Mostly OT... But some people will get a kick out of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlQ2Dnmeeq0

Quote from: Dingus Mungus on August 13, 2007, 10:19:49 PM
Oh Christ... I really hope I don't have to waste another week on this debate... Right now my focus is on campaigning for my candidate. This debate doesn't help me do that...

1) I don't believe the government launched the attacks, I believe they used them to push an agenda. I do however believe that a small group of people in high political power stood by and let the attack happen.

2) Loose change is bullshit... Roughly 80% of it is conspiracy nut job banter. A total attempt to discredit others.

3) I advocate a new investigation, thats it. NIST reports do not account for molten iron, fall times, or even offer a explanation for wtc7 collapse. Many people are accusing the government, because they are covering things up. Lots of evidence is still classified, which causes people to suspect them... Again my position is: We need a new totally transparent investigation.

Now you reply: "Well even if they did another investigation you won't like the results." to which I reply "All I want is a new investigation that tackles a lot of these 911 myths as well as the physicly impossible fall time of wtc7 and the intense heat required for such a event to happen. Then you reply: "The floors were only made to sustain a static load. Why wouldn't they fall like that while on fire?" to which I would reply "that would make sence if the internal columbs kept standing, but they fell faster than the building did. Hence the 'crimp' in the roof prefall."

Can you see why this gets us nowhere... I don't have time to go back and forth quoting people and pulling apart their logic each and every day. My 2 points have not been challanged propperly. Molten steel pre-collapse, and fall times. Look through the vast collection of data in this thread and you'll either agree or not. At this point though I don't care. I can't change your mind... Its never going to happen, as this isn't even a debate. It's more like a religious argument since no one changes their stance on the topic... EVER!!!

~Dingus Mungus

While I don't want to see the thread removed in the name of censorship, I disagree with a lot of the info contained in it. So to put it bluntly: Why would I want to spend all my time defending a thread, when our nation needs defending?

Dingus Collapse and fall times may compare to a avalanche or landslide, mud flow, etc in nature. What we think may be a sturdy non giving structure offers little or no resistance to such masses in a combined energy release as such.

The other issue you refuse to concede to. Jneko offered a couple links supporting their opinion and findings. Did you even click on the links?

Oh yeah i love that you offered another political distraction to the thread.  :o another politition offering what the people want to hear. YEAH VOTE FOR THAT GUY HE KNOWS WHAT WE WANT! There is definitely something wrong with that picture.