I think this could be the real deal , off of the steorn public site
OCs MPMM Test Demo #1
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JVMJOoEQ6_A&eurl=http://freeenergytrackers.ning.com/video/video/show?id=1638621%3AVideo%3A2526, Removed after 30 mins replaced below...
Edit?: Since this thread is now up to 108 pages you can find a current synopsos of the project over at peswiki.com that way you will be saved the trouble of going through it all..and you can get up to speed quickly.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor
or
http://www.OC-MPMM.com
Cannot view. YouTube says this:
"This is a private video. If you have been sent this video, please make sure you accept the sender's friend request."
you will have to go over to steorn if you want any more info the video was up for 30 mins and i didn't have time to save it , sorry its in the public forum
http://freeenergytrackers.ning.com/video/video/show?id=1638621%3AVideo%3A2526&context=user
Sorry, it worked 5 minutes ago. Now it's been removed.
Update: I was able to retrieve it from ~/.mozilla/firefox/.../Cache. Can I put it somewhere?
How big is it?
And which encoding is used?
If it was on Youtube it must be smaller than 50mb
The Suspense !!
Technical problems and Steorn seem to go hand in hand :-\
7 MB.
It's not related to Steorn, it's just mentioned in the forum.
It's .flv format. VLC will play it in windows or linux.
filetype is flash .flv and is 7 meg approx
http://yirkha.fud.cz/steorn/JVMJOoEQ6_A.flv
It's back on Youtube for now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIvZJ9xGutI
Interesting but not convincing.
I miss seing the whole apparatus from all angles.
And the motor shaft should be loaded to see if it still works under load.
WOW!!
What is a "Magno-kenetic jensen damper" ?
Am I right in thinking two of the stator magnets are spinning opposite direction to the rotor and the third with the rotor?
Then
He stops the two opposite spinning stators and it accelerates
Very interesting idea
Very interesting indeed!
Who created this motor? I would like to ask some questions. As always, thanks for sharing and posting your work!
Regards,
Dan
First video that does not look like fake for a neo magnet motor!
Thank for the video!
Here the schematic of the motor from the steorn forum
The damper is an aluminium bar, we think it acts as a brake to the rotor to enable a more robust magnetic transaction to take place.
The diagram above was the concept , it has undergone a few subtle changes
Read all about it (http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=8#Comment_2267441).
Ok I see the schem for the idea of this motor, but what subtle changes have been made?
What do the stator mags look like?
Thanks.
Dan
@TheOne
Have I seen that picture posted somewhere before? on this site I mean?
Your right it doesn't seem fake.
@Craigy
Beefed up using lenz' law ??
Similar yes , if you mean the design that had magnets spining on cogs linked to the rotor, but here they are free to rotate. This was discovered by accident , the idea was that the magnets were to contra rotate to the direction of the rotor. Then one was spun the wrong way by mistake and the video is the result
@Craigy,
Please, could you let me know what the stator magnets look like or relay their geometry so that I can work on a replication?
Are they round magnets (sphere) or something else?
Regards,
Dan
It "looks" real but so did Mike's self running motor..
Skeptic mode on :
'If you going to build a bullet proof demo that you are going to promote then build it entirely out of CLEAR material. Why is the base made out of clear material but the rotor made out a material that could easily hide a small motor underneath ? Why does the lighting need to be so poor ? Sure it was picked up to show nothing directly under the motor but the backside of the motor was never shown. Why ? A possible way to fake this is to have a already running motor with a flywheel with magnets attached under the table. By hand spinning the rotor it would sync up with the already running motor under the table by way of magnetic coupling. I am not saying it was done this way but with the recent glut of fake PMM videos you get skeptical after a fashion.
Skeptic mode off :
'Looks' promising. More and better videos plus constructions specs need to follow so independent building can proceed.
All noted..But this does not self sustan just yet. it is doing some weird things like accelerating , and the wind down time is far longer than it should be, i have bought the same magnets , although won't get them for 2 weeks as i am down in the canaries
edit..
Magnets are from kjmagnetics.com
Part Number: R834DIA
1 Pack of 10
Unit Price: $17.10
Product Total: $17.10
--------------------------
Part Number: B448
1 Pack of 10
Unit Price: $8.20
Product Total: $8.20
Opposites attract
An idea keeps popping into my head. When dealing with magnets, if the opposite of what you want to achieve is performed it will attract the desired result.
The video, if indeed real (please let it be so), sort of proves that !
@hydrocontrol
watch the beginning again, when he is spinning the stators slowly with his fingers you can see the magnetic interactions flicking the rotor round. No way is there a motor running under the table.
the autor of the video did not want to so it as a working machine , just to show the werid behaviour he is of the opinion that its picking up some radiation from somewhere, even so that it is intruging.
This is one of the most exciting experiments so far. On par with those of @xpenzif and the Lego one. In fact it's a variation of the Lego motor design and of a design whose plans I purchased overa year ago from ebay coming from:
http://grandpawsshop.com/
Unfortunately, surprise, lack of funds and mostly lack of a convincing video such as this of @alsetalonkin prevented me from going ahead with it.
Hi,im not a prolific poster but i am quietly replicating idea's from this forum,currently one of plengo's, but this magnet motor looks very intresting.
Here is a pdf of parts list and discusion between designer and a very skillful engineer for proof of concept.
Here is link to photos off the results.
http://freeenergytrackers.ning.com/photo
Regards Jonnydavro
From the photo of the guys, here some text about a photo:
QuoteMeasuring the rotation rate of a stator magnet with the laser tachometer.
Red color is from the laser.
Motion is completely frozen by the flash, but the stator magnet is going over 5000 rpm, and the rotor is turning 1250+.
Is this is possible to get this kind of quality on a moving rotor?
A good camera can stop this type of rotation easily.
The tach looks like it is showing a part of a "5" in it's display.
Dan
Quote from: TheOne on January 04, 2008, 09:49:26 PM
Is this is possible to get this kind of quality on a moving rotor?
Yes, if it's dark and you use a flash.
Look at the gap to the left of the word "Ride!". You can see the blurry white continuation of the disk that was recorded on the film when the flash was off.
I gotta say that this video is very exciting. Alsetalonkin does good work and seems to have earned credibility.
Cheers,
Mr. Entropy
Quote from: Mr.Entropy on January 04, 2008, 10:09:46 PM
Quote from: TheOne on January 04, 2008, 09:49:26 PM
Is this is possible to get this kind of quality on a moving rotor?
Yes, if it's dark and you use a flash.
Look at the gap to the left of the word "Ride!". You can see the blurry white continuation of the disk that was recorded on the film when the flash was off.
I gotta say that this video is very exciting. Alsetalonkin does good work and seems to have earned credibility.
Cheers,
Mr. Entropy
You are right, I did not know you can capture such a good photo with a rotating rotor :)
I have the same magnet for the inner rotor (100), I will ebay the other magnet and hopefully find cheaper one compared to the site suggested and maybe try a replica
Ok I find some on ebay for the outer magnet, what do you think about this magnets?
http://cgi.ebay.ca/20-Neodymium-Magnets-1-2-x-1-8-inch-Disc-DIAMETRIC-N48_W0QQitemZ160117140919QQihZ006QQcategoryZ413QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m118
20 Neodymium Magnets 1/2 x 1/8 inch Disc DIAMETRIC N48 (so its like 10 x 1/2 x 1/4)
Its 2$ less then the other site suggested but with the shipping included
Update:
Its maybe not a good idea since you cannot stack 2 magnets with diametric magnet so get the 1/4 size instead of 1/8
After viewing photos and comments at this site from the actual builder
http://freeenergytrackers.ning.com/photo/photo/show?id=1638621%3APhoto%3A2306
this PMM is looking a bit more real.. Perhaps there is hope of a real running PMM..
I was thinking I can use sphere magnet, they can spin inside a little transparent cylinder tube, I have 2 sphere magnets, not that powerfull but I can try this with them first
Looks promising - the Free Energy Tracker page has photos and measurements by the guy who made it all so it should be easy to replicate provided that you can machine the parts accurately (I can't or I would be doing it now!) This one looks very good just for the openness of these folk. :)
I'm curious about the "why" though - any theories on how this thing works yet folks?
Note that the small spinner mag's sit on top of bearings and you can bet they are steel. Does it have any effect on the device?
Quote from: TheOne on January 04, 2008, 11:47:54 PM
I was thinking I can use sphere magnet, they can spin inside a little transparent cylinder tube, I have 2 sphere magnets, not that powerfull but I can try this with them first
The stator magnets are diametrically magnetized, unless you can find a way to keep the spheres oriented in the correct plane I doubt it will work.
I've posted a feature page aat PESWiki. Feel free to help us compile a good synopsis of this technology as it emerges, including a clear and adequate set of plans, list of replications, theory, data, etc.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor)
Steorn Forum Members Post Their Own Magnet Motor Demo Video - A couple of forum members have been kicking around ideas for how to build an all-magnet motor with no other motive force. One of them shot a video showing acceleration of the device, but he doesn't seem to realize what he's accomplished. (PESWiki; Jan. 5, 2008)
Quote from: sterlinga on January 05, 2008, 04:28:29 AM
I've posted a feature page aat PESWiki. Feel free to help us compile a good synopsis of this technology as it emerges, including a clear and adequate set of plans, list of replications, theory, data, etc.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor)
Steorn Forum Members Post Their Own Magnet Motor Demo Video - A couple of forum members have been kicking around ideas for how to build an all-magnet motor with no other motive force. One of them shot a video showing acceleration of the device, ""but he doesn't seem to realize what he's accomplished.""[/b] (PESWiki; Jan. 5, 2008)
At the risk of speaking for them both, I think they do realize, but thats not the point, it would be very foolish to jump the gun at this point, I for one hope they both keep their feet on the ground and continue to research and experiment before they start shouting OU or similar.
But I gotta admit, I'm very excited about this!
kjmagnetics part number B448, which I assume are the rotor magnets, appear to be
magnetized through the thickness. The drawings show magnetization along the length.
Is this the correct part?
http://kjmagnetics.com/search.asp
jox
Hello All,
This motor setup looks quite exciting! For those of us interested in replicating the motor exactly like the original, I searched the Steorn thread for a description of the mechanical setup. Here's what alsetalokin posted about the dimensions of his setup:
QuoteA dimensioned sketch of the bearing/magnet holder assembly is posted on the other site. The baseplate that I am using is acrylic plastic, 5/8 in thick, 7 3/4 in x 8 1/2 in,
with a 1/4-20 threaded hole in the center for the rotor axle, and 13 evenly-spaced 4-40 threaded holes for the stator magnet bearing holders, on a circle of radius 3 3/8 in centered on the axle.
The rotor is 3/4 in thick piece of HDPE plastic, 2 7/8 in radius, with a 0.500 in center hole bored all the way thru for the flanged axle bearings. Magnets are held in 8 evenly-spaced 1/4 in wide slots, 7/16 in deep, inner edge of slots at the 2 1/2 in radius from center.
This is the basic layout for the 13x8 version that I am experimenting with. But I am mostly just using 3 stator magnets and a couple of "dummy" aluminum pieces of the same size as the magnets, also mounted in the same type of bearing holder.
The stator magnets are mounted by a single trimmed 4-40 SHCS and a little washer to make sure only the inner bearing race is contacting the screw or the baseplate.
The rotor magnets are press-fit in place.
I will draw up a CAD model of it based on the given dimensions and post it for those interested.
God Bless,
Jason O
Here's some more misc info I collected from him on the Steorn forum about the setup:
Quote
The stator magnets are mounted by a single trimmed 4-40 SHCS and a little washer to make sure only the inner bearing race is contacting the screw or the baseplate.
The rotor magnets are press-fit in place.
The stator mags are mounted coaxially with and above their bearings. The bearings are screwed down to the baseplate with a tiny spacer for clearance. The magnets are diametrically polarized.
These that I'm using now are for 3.5 mm shaft size, in a paired housing that slips into the rotor's central bore, extending down to a shock-mounted base bearing unit.
What I had in there before were just some generic flanged 1/4 inch bore unshielded bearings, and the shaft was a 1/4-20 brass screw. Not the most accurate arrangement.
8 Bearings bought from Stewart-Warner.
The dampers are 6061-T6 aluminum alloy.
The rotor is made of HDPE which is a bitch to machine, and cuts usually come out a little small. I used a 0.250 2-fluted end mill, one pass in width, to cut the slots for the 1/4 in nominal OD rotor magnets, and they press into the slots perfectly--that is, a medium press fit. So if you specify tolerances of +/- 0.0005, which is what I worked to on this project, all should be well.
The stator magnet/bearing holders are Delrin, and it cuts small too, but not as much as the HDPE. I cut for exactly 0.5000, and stopped when the mike read 0.4997. I wanted the magnets to be pretty tight so they wouldn't slip, anticipating the latch requirement.
With the Sherlines, I can always achieve +/- 0.0005 accuracy--they have digital readouts and are very accurate. If I am careful I can get down to 0.0002 in most materials.
Misc Note:
I have little data on variants. If the system works, as I suspect it will, with only the one stator magnet, you might try that first to see if you can reproduce the antigearwise motion, as a start.
The dampers are tuned by trial and error. If too close they retard the magnet too much and it won't synch. Too far and there's no benefit. Once the distance is found, rotating a little at a time and trying the spin until I found a "sweet spot" is how I did it. The effect of the dampers is small, in any case.
God Bless,
Jason O
Sorry my mistake, it says the magnets are 1/4x1/4x1/2, the 1/2 being the thickness, which
to me is the length.
Great, Jason. First, Happy New Year to you and all the best. I was mentioning somewhere that you might wanna do that, but I wasn't sure as to whether you'll have the time for that. I'm glad to see you're rolling up your sleeves. What has to be understood also is what exact magnets these are. Someone was questioning the direction of magnetization so we have to know that clearly so that we can order them right away. I wrote e-mails also to several other friends who might not have heard of this and see if they would also be willing to replicate it. What a fantastic start of the new year. Waiting for the drawings with great interest.
i have ordered the same magnets, might be more expensive but need to replicate. And getting the same ones, hopefully will make that easier, now back to lathe.
When testing it would be good if we take readings of the gauss before, ambient temperature, but device in a faraday cage etc to try and narrow down a few things. Are the magnets being depleated? If they are not we could be on to a winner. Hope so guys
Thx to Craigy , Stator magnets ordered this end as well ;D
Been trawling through the threads and so many posts trying to get the dimensions that Alsetalokin has used and found this snippet:
A dimensioned sketch of the bearing/magnet holder assembly is posted on the other site. The baseplate that I am using is acrylic plastic, 5/8 in thick, 7 3/4 ( in x 8 1/2 in,
with a 1/4-20 threaded hole in the center for the rotor axle, and 13 evenly-spaced 4-40 threaded holes for the stator magnet bearing holders, on a circle of radius 3 3/8 in centered on the axle.
The rotor is 3/4 in thick piece of HDPE plastic, 2 7/8 in radius, with a 0.500 in center hole bored all the way thru for the flanged axle bearings. Magnets are held in 8 evenly-spaced 1/4 in wide slots, 7/16 in deep, inner edge of slots at the 2 1/2 in radius from center.
This is the basic layout for the 13x8 version that I am experimenting with. But I am mostly just using 3 stator magnets and a couple of "dummy" aluminum pieces of the same size as the magnets, also mounted in the same type of bearing holder.
The stator magnets are mounted by a single trimmed 4-40 SHCS and a little washer to make sure only the inner bearing race is contacting the screw or the baseplate.
The rotor magnets are press-fit in place.
For the Stator Magnet Holders the following drawing attached from Alsetalokin again.
Quote from: Craigy on January 05, 2008, 06:49:19 AM
i have ordered the same magnets, might be more expensive but need to replicate. And getting the same ones, hopefully will make that easier, now back to lathe.
Hi Craigy, CLaNZeR, jox and others,
The magnets listed on the PDF (K&J B448-1/4x1/4x1/2 block) do not appear to be the same as the pic above posted by CLaNZer .
The rotor mags (all eight of them) seem to be cylindrical-rod and with length more than 2x1 cross section., maybe 3 to 1? (possibly ? dia x ? thick, D4C ?) The builder of the original rig would be able to confirm.
I hope this helps to get a more accurate replication
Thanks
Quote from: mikestocks2006 on January 05, 2008, 11:21:23 AM
Quote from: Craigy on January 05, 2008, 06:49:19 AM
i have ordered the same magnets, might be more expensive but need to replicate. And getting the same ones, hopefully will make that easier, now back to lathe.
Hi Craigy, CLaNZeR, jox and others,
The magnets listed on the PDF (K&J B448-1/4x1/4x1/2 block) do not appear to be the same as the pic above posted by CLaNZer .
The rotor mags (all eight of them) seem to be cylindrical-rod and with length more than 2x1 cross section., maybe 3 to 1? (possibly ? dia x ? thick, D4C ?) The builder of the original rig would be able to confirm.
I hope this helps to get a more accurate replication
Thanks
I have the same cylinder here and can tell you its the same size at those pic, here the dimension of my magnet: 1" x 3/8" but maybe he use 1" x 1/4 but the size are similar
the pdf is right , i got the magnet codes off of the thread and it was a time consuming business, not cubes , but as clanzer and yourself pointed out
I have gone for a 85mm rotor and think the magnets can be either Rod or rectangle or cubes stacked.
Would you agree with the quick measurments below before I mill this out?
Removed as was WRONG!!!!
Your rods look small to me, 10mm long. Looking at video they look like 3/4" long or even 1", maybe I am wrong!
wayne
Hi,
This is a very hot project at the moment, I can see a lot of people will be replicating this.
The 8 rotor magnets look like rod type not slab and by pasteing the image into PSP and knowing the radius I have calculated the size of the rod magnets to be:
0.54" or 13.78mm length
We know the thickness is 0.25" or 6.35mm
Rods are polarised through the length.
Getting the diamagnetic polarised stator magnets is tricky on the UK , so I will need to order these from the US.
The bearings look like model RC racing car bearings, so I guess ebay would be a good source for these.
Regards
Rob
CLaNZeR:
Ok I taked a good look about the size, sound like my 22" minoteur in 1600x1200 give me the exact same size from one of the photo
Here some of the dimension:
I was wrong with the rotor magnet
rotor magnet: 3/16" dia. x 1/2" thick (http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D38)
outer magnet: 1/2" od x 3/16" id x 1/4" thick (same as the begining, http://kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=R834DIA)
rotor size: 5 1/2"
frame size: 7 1/2"
Deleted
Quote from: TheOne on January 05, 2008, 12:20:19 PM
CLaNZeR:
Ok I taked a good look about the size, sound like my 22" minoteur in 1600x1200 give me the exact same size from one of the photo
rotor size: 5 1/2"
The Rotor size I took as being as he quoted by Alsetalokin :
The rotor is 3/4 in thick piece of HDPE plastic, 2 7/8 in radiusI just realised he said RADIUS and not Diameter grrrrrrrrrrrrrr so the Rotor should be
So am I correct in thinnking 2 7/8 =73mm Radius which is 146mm Diameter and hence 5.7 inches?
God my maths are bad hehe
Hi Omnibus & Everyone,
Glad to see so many people jumping on this project! Sometime this afternoon/ evening, I'll make some CAD drawings and dimensioned diagrams for the exact specs for the whole thing. I'll also give the exact sizes for the magnets (I can scale the images in CAD and compare to the given dimensions to get the precise sizes). For those who plan on doing any CNC work, let me know what format you prefer and I'll post. I can produce both 2D and 3D models of the thing.
BTW, does anyone have a clear idea of how he had the rotor mounted? I'm still a bit confused by the original description.
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 05, 2008, 12:47:23 PM
Hi Omnibus & Everyone,
Glad to see so many people jumping on this project! Sometime this afternoon/ evening, I'll make some CAD drawings and dimensioned diagrams for the exact specs for the whole thing. I'll also give the exact sizes for the magnets (I can scale the images in CAD and compare to the given dimensions to get the precise sizes). For those who plan on doing any CNC work, let me know what format you prefer and I'll post. I can produce both 2D and 3D models of the thing.
BTW, does anyone have a clear idea of how he had the rotor mounted? I'm still a bit confused by the original description.
God Bless,
Jason O
Sure that can help a lot, its bad for me that my magnet are way to big, I will still try with my magnet, I should use them , they are lying all around doing nothing, they need to do some work now :)
Hi @CLaNZeR,
Happy New Year and good luck in this new exploration. Doesn't this remind you of the experiments gaby suggested and you began exploring with interest? I think there's even a thread here on that. Isn't that amazing?
Now I think I have the Rotor Correct ;D
I personally do not think the size matters too much, the effect is the important thing here maybe.
I am going to use 3 * 6.35mm(1/4) cubes stuck together for each Rotor magnet place, as I have these here.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Frotor2.jpg&hash=e4ebfd4814857abcc960d5d4bd8c8a316867b299)
@JDO that would be great if you could do some DXF files, that we can then just turn into Gcode for milling :)
@Omnibus, Happy New Year!
This sort of ties in with a combination of the Kiss Motor and Gaby's ideas, weird how these things come together.
This time lets hope someone can replicate it!!
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: MeggerMan on January 05, 2008, 12:15:09 PM
The 8 rotor magnets look like rod type not slab and by pasteing the image into PSP and knowing the radius I have calculated the size of the rod magnets to be:
0.54" or 13.78mm length
We know the thickness is 0.25" or 6.35mm
Hi Rob
13.7mm would be two cube magnets, I have used 3 for the moment, but I suppose the nice thing about using Cube magnets is that we can take or add to change the length to see the difference.
Lets hope the USA are quick with the Stator Magnet deliveries, if they do not run out of stock too quick ;D
Cheers
Sean.
Here's something worth noting and may assist those who are trying to build one.
I built a rig similar to this and I discovered that by using a motor to rotate the magnet stator, I can get it to sustain a spin "gearwise" and "counter-gearwise". The part that interests me is that any magnet I use will get the rotor to spin in either direction, and a variety of factors affect the speed such as how much of an effect the magnet has on the motor, etc. No damper, just one rotor and one stator.
Given that I don't have any extra bearings, the next thing I had was a motor to test this out. The other interesting thing is that this rotor is a POS. I suspect that someone with a bit of resources and skill can set something similar and replicate. I anticipate that the least amount of losses from friction, etc this thing may self sustain. Thought I am not holding my breath... Time will tell. I hope something good comes of this.
Cheers.
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 05, 2008, 12:47:23 PM
BTW, does anyone have a clear idea of how he had the rotor mounted? I'm still a bit confused by the original description.
He is just using flange bearings inserted into the Rotor and a Brass bar inserted in the base.
To cut my friction losses I have gone for top and bottom RC bearings with a Top Cross Bar.
I have also allowed for the Stator magnets to be slid on slots to vary the distance and also curved slots to position the Judson Dampers.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fbase1.jpg&hash=06f1c6bbca3d826a78c6cdd6fba93d547177093e)
It will probably make more sense when the base has finished cutting out, will post a picture too show what I mean.
Cheers
Sean.
This is off-topic. Probably we should ask Stefan to merge the two or three threads discussing this topic or maybe some would prefer to have it separated--the technical issues in one thread and the rest in another. What do you think? Too many places discussing this important endeavor and one can miss something substantial.
@All,
I'll go even further in my off-topic ramblings. Why not ask Stefan to make it a sticky thread and have a place where we would discuss and agree on what exact parts are to be ordered while waiting for Jason's drawings. Maybe @CLaNZeR as one of the savviest constructors would be willing to make a list of the concrete, say, magnets that are to be ordered to begin with. There still seems to be a bit of confusion about that. Also the bearings and whatever dampers etc. I'm preparing for ordering all this and I'd like to be sure it'll be the right one as much as possible, to avoid delays later.
P.S. I wonder if @tao already knows about this.
Weee! ;D Another magnet motor setup to work on. Looks promising, and simple. I will give this a try and hope you guys good luck. ;)
Okay Base all done now:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fbase2.jpg&hash=bb944ebb148bfae31153fa861a36adc45c56f81b)
Hope this makes sense now regards the top bar and the slots for altering the Stator/dampner positions.
@CLaNZeR, you're amazing. Keep on doing the good job, mate.
Would NOT say I am one of the Saviest contructors, you know me, I am like a Bull in China Shop LOL.
Regards the Dampners and Magnets, I just email Craigy and check with him ;D ;D ;D ;D
I think the Stator magnets are pretty obvious and Craigy has supplied the link and the part number, I have ordered these but like everyone else have to wait for delivery from USA :(
The Rotor magnets should not be too bad as the design of the Rotor allows us to move the position and also change the config.
The reason I have gone for the Top bar is after building alot of Rotors, this is the best configuration to reduce your losses, but maybe with this configuration it is not needed as much, but playing safe this end.
Where is the other thread on this subject?
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 05, 2008, 04:21:36 PM
@All,
I'll go even further in my off-topic ramblings. Why not ask Stefan to make it a sticky thread and have a place where we would discuss and agree on what exact parts are to be ordered while waiting for Jason's drawings. Maybe @CLaNZeR as one of the savviest constructors would be willing to make a list of the concrete, say, magnets that are to be ordered to begin with. There still seems to be a bit of confusion about that. Also the bearings and whatever dampers etc. I'm preparing for ordering all this and I'd like to be sure it'll be the right one as much as possible, to avoid delays later.
P.S. I wonder if @tao already knows about this.
Oh Quick Plug from me as well, Selling one of my Desktop CNC Machines, so if anyone is interested in a Bargain check out
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CNC-Desktop-Frame-with-Stepper-Motors_W0QQitemZ200188834727QQihZ010QQcategoryZ12584QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
6 Days to go!!!
Cheers
Sean.
@CLaNZeR,
I'd like to check with you again before ordering, just to be sure. Magnets to be ordered are these:
kjmagnetics.com
Part Number: R834DIA
1 Pack of 10
Unit Price: $17.10
Product Total: $17.10
--------------------------
Part Number: B448
1 Pack of 10
Unit Price: $8.20
Product Total: $8.20
Have we all agreed on that? And the amount is one pack of each type (part number), that is 20 altogether, correct?
How about the bearings and the damper? What are they and where are they to be ordered from?
And now, to annoy you completely, what else do you think should be ordered?
Thanks in advance.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 05, 2008, 04:56:01 PM
Okay Base all done now:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fbase2.jpg&hash=bb944ebb148bfae31153fa861a36adc45c56f81b)
Hope this makes sense now regards the top bar and the slots for altering the Stator/dampner positions.
Nice, what you are using to cut your plastic like that!
I have a scroll saw and i broked 4 blades just trying to cut my rotor and its still not finished lol
I need help ;)
@CLaNZeR,
In the picture you posted here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg68193.html#msg68193 it appears that the magnets on the rotor are cylinders. The magnets B448 recommended, however, are rectangular. Am I missing something? Sorry if that question has already been answered.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 05, 2008, 05:10:55 PM
kjmagnetics.com
Part Number: R834DIA
1 Pack of 10
Unit Price: $17.10
Product Total: $17.10
--------------------------
Part Number: B448
1 Pack of 10
Unit Price: $8.20
Product Total: $8.20
How about the bearings and the damper? What are they and where are they to be ordered from?
For the Rotor Magnets I have gone for the http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=B444 as they are 1/4*1/4*1/4 but worth getting the B448's as well for experimenting I reckon.
The R834DIA pack for the Stators is what I have also ordered.
From what I understand the Dampners are just bits of Ally Bar say 8-10mm that keep the Rotor spinning at 5000 RPM, but it seems a bit of miss or hit where you place them. In the Video it seems there are two place either side of the rear magnet. These basically bring Lenz Law into play and stops the Rotor from getting carried away.
I am going to use 3mm Internal Diameter RC Bearings and lathe down a Brass Axle to fit the Rotor and the Rotor itself.
Hope this helps, not saying it is 100% correct but that is what I am going with after talking to a few people.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 05, 2008, 05:21:54 PM
@CLaNZeR,
In the picture you posted here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg68193.html#msg68193 it appears that the magnets on the rotor are cylinders. The magnets B448 recommended, however, are rectangular. Am I missing something? Sorry if that question has already been answered.
Alsetalokin used Rod magnets but the designer OC thinks block magnets would be better, so for now going for blocks, but the design of the rotor will allow Rod magnets to be placed easy enough if we find blocks not working.
As I said before I do not think the exact sizes really have to be spot on, but it is more the effect that is the key.
Should be an exciting couple of weeks ;D ;D
Quote from: TheOne
Nice, what you are using to cut your plastic like that!
I have a scroll saw and i broked 4 blades just trying to cut my rotor and its still not finished lol
I need help ;)
Sorry mate, no quick fix when it comes to hard labour.
I cheat LOL, I have a small Desktop CNC machine that does all the hard work for me.
Hello All,
Still working on the CAD drawings for the motor. I ran into a small discrepancy in the given dimensions so I thought I would pass this along to you all. Alsetalokin mentions that the radius of the rotor disk is 2.875 inches with 0.25" slots for the magnets. He then goes on to say that the inner edge of the slot is 2.5" away from the center of the disk. However, after drawing this up in AutoCAD, I noticed that the distance from the outer edge of the slot to the edge of the disk appeared to be 1/8" smaller than what seems to be shown in photos of the actual device. So I increased the radius of the disk by 1/8" to 3" and now the CAD drawing seems to fit nicely with the photo when overlaid onto it (See attached images). Can someone who has contact with Alsetalokin pass this information along to confirm what I am seeing here? I don't mean to be too nit picky about the specs but I don't want to take any chances with the distances between the magnets.
Thanks,
Jason O
Jason, I don't think you're nitpicking at all. Replication should be done exactly as @alsetalonkin's device. That's why I don't think also we should use rectangular magnets but should use the exact cylindrical magnets @alsetalonkin uses. What are they? I second @Jdo300 in asking someone to verify these issues with the actual constructor (not with someone who gave the idea).
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 05, 2008, 05:30:11 PM
Quote from: TheOne
Nice, what you are using to cut your plastic like that!
I have a scroll saw and i broked 4 blades just trying to cut my rotor and its still not finished lol
I need help ;)
Sorry mate, no quick fix when it comes to hard labour.
I cheat LOL, I have a small Desktop CNC machine that does all the hard work for me.
Ah, I guess one of my next project will be to do a CNC machine http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Make-a-Three-Axis-CNC-Machine-Cheaply-and-/
:)
hi guys ,
don?t want to put anyone off , but the acceleration puzzled me, so contacted a phd for his take on the matter, now i still think something is going on , whereas my phd friend now after some thought does not..still can?t agree all the time can we..
I think i know why it accelerates
Think about the effect that ice skaters use to make a fast spin - they start spinning as fast as they can and then fold their arms in - by conservation of angular momentum they then rotate much faster since the net moment of inertia has been reduced just by pulling in their arms. I think this gadget could be doing the same thing - stopping the outside magnets greatly reduces the moment of inertia and so the main rotor has to speed up in consequence in order to still have the same angular momentum.
Hence the question, what happens if you don't stop the outside magnets?
Quote from: Craigy on January 05, 2008, 10:10:23 PM
I think i know why it accelerates
Think about the effect that ice skaters use to make a fast spin - [...]
To do that you actually have to move rotating stuff from the outside of the rotor to the inside, and that's not happening here.
The angular momentum in the stator magents that are stopped is transferred to the earth via the fingers that stop them. To get it into the rotor, you would have to transfer it to the rotor via a force.
Cheers,
Mr. Entropy
I think the driving force is only provided by the one stator magnet that is forced clockwise.
The other 2 (rotating counter clockwise) are 'dragged' by the rotor. This consumes energy. When you stop those 2, less energy loss is occurring.
That is why the rotor is accelerating in my view.
The acceleration at the startup of the motor seems to occur to achieve a balanced state that relates to the mass and the magnet forces of the rotating rotor and the stator(s). This can be simply confirmed by putting more load to the rotor.
hahaha
but I had already made this (click on the image for the doc) It even explains why the device needs a speed governor to kick start it.
RESONANT MAGNETOMECHANICS
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmagnetmotor.googlepages.com%2Fresonance-to-slow.gif&hash=cd551c644342573e79c33e3fc03834dbf90b073b) (http://magnetmotor.go-here.nl/resonance/text/)
to slow
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmagnetmotor.googlepages.com%2Fresonance-slow.gif&hash=56a25a95240aab7ec411ae41144a855ea8f10d40) (http://magnetmotor.go-here.nl/resonance/text/)
to fast
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmagnetmotor.googlepages.com%2Fresonance-to-fast.gif&hash=4a1719c709b71e4f87e2b09ed0307fa0d28f38c4) (http://magnetmotor.go-here.nl/resonance/text/)
within resonance
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmagnetmotor.googlepages.com%2Fresonance-match.gif&hash=a304fbb1a51d6f9ff32899c5c837588aabc56c30) (http://magnetmotor.go-here.nl/resonance/text/%5B/url)
A bit like xpenzif in his last posts before he made that video.
Quote from: xpenzif on October 11, 2007, 03:15:34 AM
Yeah. You're right. Your device is flawless. You solved the elusive alternative fuel source. You saved the world. Good work gaby de wilde. Build it so we can all benefit. ::)
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3305.0.html
HAHAHAHAHA
Maybe everything in my journal is for real? o dear?
http://magnetmotor.go-here.nl/text
Back on topic....
Don't say? I haven't explained it well enough again? Illustrations and a doc, I knwo I know ...it's not good enough. I must explain it at least 100 times.
Here is nr 3, hold you head!
We take 2 magnets. A and B
We attach a weight to A.
In the first test we drop A so that the attraction from B intercepts the drop.
We repeat the test dropping A from increasing height.
Eventually A moves to fast for B to grasp it out of the sky.
We will call this "above critical speed". There where B is capable of interception the speed of A is "below critical speed".
Below crit. -> attraction overcomes kinetic energy
Above crit. -> attraction
does not overcome kinetic energy
Now here it becomes tricky boys and girls.
Before deceleration A is first accelerated by B So, the speed of A can be slightly below crit. and accelerate above it during the interaction.
Nothing weird happens.
Now we attach a rope and a weight to magnet B and throw it over a beam so that we can drop it upwards. Here things get weird!
Apparently, accelerating magnet A from just below crit to just above it costs more energy as to accelerate both magnet A and magnet B from just below 1/2 crit. to just above.
If energy is preserved *grin* it seems like we should be getting 2 times as much acceleration at half the speed for our kinetic investment.
This will of course cut off some of the acceleration time. If it moves faster it will cover more distance in less time, it's what "faster" means. : - )
The joke is that any improvement in acceleration will also cut the departure time.
Speed was already above crit. Faster departure will increase the gap proportionally.
The magnets on the device in the video are not moving linear. The 180 degree turn is like the magnet disappears for 200%.
Moving over this course the duration of the approach & departure interaction is much smaller than having one linearly.
It may enhance the fast departure effect I dunno, it does however generate a lot of interactions really really quickly.
When the resonant speed is approached the governor magnets are no longer necessary.
Tell me where you get vague.
lol
Quote from: gaby de wilde on January 06, 2008, 06:45:09 AM
hahaha
but I had already made this
Have you produced a video?
I would
love to see it.
Hi, gaby, very interesting indeed. Probably you've seen that I mentioned you and @CLaNZeR in the Steorn forum immediately after I found out couple of days ago what's going on. I was in Massachusetts before that for about a month and a half not paying attention to the net because had some other things to do. In the meantime the developments have been fabulous due to a serendipitous error made by @alsetalonkin when trying to develop these ideas in a working device. Turns out, by his own admission, had I not stirred him up (he uses a different word) the other day we wouldn't have known eve about these developments because it was only due to me, believe it or not, that he posted his now famous video. Ridiculous isn't it. So, the rigid self-appointed skeptic (although obviously science isn't his forte, for which I judge from former discussions with him) suddenly provides one of the most important evidence in this field. I can't get over it. Now it appears he regrets dearly showing that video. But the the gene is out of the bottle already.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 06, 2008, 10:25:24 AM
Hi, gaby, very interesting indeed. Probably you've seen that I mentioned you and @CLaNZeR in the Steorn forum immediately after I found out couple of days ago what's going on. I was in Massachusetts before that for about a month and a half not paying attention to the net because had some other things to do. In the meantime the developments have been fabulous due to a serendipitous error made by @alsetalonkin when trying to develop these ideas in a working device. Turns out, by his own admission, had I not stirred him up (he uses a different word) the other day we wouldn't have known eve about these developments because it was only due to me, believe it or not, that he posted his now famous video. Ridiculous isn't it. So, the rigid self-appointed skeptic (although obviously science isn't his forte, for which I judge from former discussions with him) suddenly provides one of the most important evidence in this field. I can't get over it. Now it appears he regrets dearly showing that video. But the the gene is out of the bottle already.
Really, you just don't know when to stop do you?
Omnibus, you should, to use your own overused phrase "Stop cluttering the thread" with such drivel as the above......
I really hope the ones replicating this device are successful, I'm sure something like this is going to work eventually.
But I'm a little confused. The video posted by Yirkha clearly states that it is "No over-unity, no infinite long runs, so don't jump into conclusions". Leads me to believe this is not a magent motor, but just a device to test the effect of the small rotating magnets.
Could it be that there is a small internal motor driving the wheel? At least then the video makes sense.
Small motor cannot intitiate or maintain spin, but when the rear small magnet is spun clockwise it can maintain the spin. RPM is limited by the drag of the other two small magnets, when they are stopped the RPM increases, which clearly shows these two magnets are a drag when spinning.
Question: What happens when the back magnet is also stopped? Does it speed up further or slow down? Why was this not shown?
To me, all the video shows is that when the back magnet is spinning clockwise instead of counter clockwise, there is less drag. I like the honesty, in that the creators of this video have not claimed that this is a working motor.
Are you people building this device expecting it to run on it's own, or are you just investigating the forces involved?
I'm impressed by the quality of construction shown and am looking forward to the results.
@acp,
Quite the contrary. you are the one who doesn't know his place and should stop stopping others. Don't continue or you'll hear harsher words.
@DA,
It doesn?t matter what someone says. What?s important is what the video shows. And what the video shows is just amazing, nothing short of another experimental proof for overunity. Also, it isn?t true that the creator of this video claims it isn?t a working motor. Quite the contrary, @alsetalonkin, claims it?s indeed a working motor and all we see has come up by a sheer accident when he spun it the wrong way after making whatever changes he wasn?t intending to make. This motor he says has worked for whole 3 hours without external energy input. So it isn?t true that all the video shows is that when the back magnet is spinning clockwise instead of counter clockwise, there is less drag. Now replicating efforts are on the way and when this mandatory step is finished successfully we can congratulate ourselves with yet another proof that CoE can be violated.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 06, 2008, 10:48:55 AM
@acp,
Quite the contrary. you are the one who doesn't know his place and should stop stopping others. Don't continue or you'll hear harsher words.
Well, you're the one who drove alsetalonkin away from the stoern website. Thankfully he is posting again after your banning from the steorn forum.....
Quote from: Omnibus on January 06, 2008, 11:02:21 AM
This motor he says has worked for whole 3 hours without external energy input.
Where can this information be verified?
On the Steorn forum....
Okay update from me.
First thing is I do not get involved in bickering or disputes, I am here to replicate and have some fun, so please try and keep the thread on course as such ;D
Right first thing now the base was finished was to get the RC 3mm Internal Diameter Bearings fitted and the lathe down a Brass shaft.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Foc1.jpg&hash=e849cc420818571c68a0d8d107a38acf8b802537)
As you can see the height is 30mm and the Brass shaft fits perfect.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Foc2.jpg&hash=0d75e4487261896a37a35b8d1a255e51757bcc48)
Here is the finished Rotor by the way!
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Foc3.jpg&hash=449f6fb4ea99b5ac413ee72f91c99262b8c8093e)
Next is to Press Fit the Brass Shaft into the Rotor, I used a Drill Press stand to achieve this.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Foc4.jpg&hash=322c12ea4b96ec9fa3a316dfb4e00f280a68a964)
Finally Pop the Rotor into the bearings and screw it up.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Foc5.jpg&hash=fcd977d4fcdf2fd5fb3ad172f3748c1872cc2d14)
Really please with this Rig as really loose using the 3mm RC bearings.
Now I have just got to wait for the magnets to arrive. I have some 1/4 *1/4 *1/4 Cubes knocking around but not enough, so have ordered some of these as well.
That's my progress report so far, more when the magnets arrive :)
Have also now updated my site over at http://www.overunity.org.uk
Cheers
Sean.
@Low-Q,
This is an incorrect analysis
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 06, 2008, 11:42:43 AM
Okay update from me.
First thing is I do not get involved in bickering or disputes, I am here to replicate and have some fun, so please try and keep the thread on course as such ;D
Right first thing now the base was finished was to get the RC 3mm Internal Diameter Bearings fitted and the lathe down a Brass shaft.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Foc1.jpg&hash=e849cc420818571c68a0d8d107a38acf8b802537)
As you can see the height is 30mm and the Brass shaft fits perfect.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Foc2.jpg&hash=0d75e4487261896a37a35b8d1a255e51757bcc48)
Here is the finished Rotor by the way!
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Foc3.jpg&hash=449f6fb4ea99b5ac413ee72f91c99262b8c8093e)
Next is to Press Fit the Brass Shaft into the Rotor, I used a Drill Press stand to achieve this.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Foc4.jpg&hash=322c12ea4b96ec9fa3a316dfb4e00f280a68a964)
Finally Pop the Rotor into the bearings and screw it up.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Foc5.jpg&hash=fcd977d4fcdf2fd5fb3ad172f3748c1872cc2d14)
Really please with this Rig as really loose using the 3mm RC bearings.
Now I have just got to wait for the magnets to arrive. I have some 1/4 *1/4 *1/4 Cubes knocking around but not enough, so have ordered some of these as well.
That's my progress report so far, more when the magnets arrive :)
Have also now updated my site over at http://www.overunity.org.uk
Cheers
Sean.
Nice job! I want a CNC Machine now!! :)
Mine is coming along, quite less complicated then your and quite not precise lol, my rotor is not perfect.... anyway
Hopefully I will able to show my motor running today with my existing magnet (bigger then the one suggested and the stator magnet using sphere magnet)
I had to build one too :)
Some images attached, and a video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7040941048043834176&hl=en
Well, please advice me on how it is supposed to work ;)
In the youtube-movie he mentions "magno kinetic judson dampers", what is that supposed to mean ?
Why does he have 3 rotating magnets to begin with since the motor obviously runs better with only one ?
Tomorrow i will buy a smaller bearing so I can move the rotating magnet closer to the rotor.
What a fantastic thought-provoking thread, and a brilliant invention - irrespective of what it may prove or disprove.
I would be very interested to know if degaussing takes place after a period of operation. I've read that the unit will slow after some hours (presumably eventually stopping), and also read that after stopping the unit can be re-started again in the conventional manner. Some have suggested the possibility of core saturation, requiring a period of relaxation, though with no energy required for any such change to take place then would not detract from the very interesting questions this device throws up.
If there's any notable source of energy to explain the rotation of this motor then it must surely be contained within the flux of the magnets. In other words, a sort of reversal of the means by which the magnets are created in the first place - i.e. enclosure by an energising coil with a high-capacity discharge through the coil to induce a polarising field to the magnet. For myself, clarification on this point alone would establish whether this motor is arguably exhibiting Over-Unity as far as we might appreciate, and absolutely right that experimenters here remain cautious and thoroughly objective before making any such claims of attaining the "holy grail". This is one aspect that inspired me to sign up to this forum :)
Now if this were the case, how could this be allowed to violate modern scientific understanding and the "Laws of Physics" that suggest that energy can neither be created or destroyed? I can't help but ponder the possible shift in the time element as potentially the missing component that might one day prove to be the missing link to the Power = Rate of Change in respect of energy conversion - considered in real-time.
A simple hypothesis to time and relativity is to imagine staring at a large clock, say... on the town-hall wall, with the second hand ticking by. All people staring at the clock would appreciate the seconds ticking by at the same rate - in other words everyone is sharing the same time-space. The ticking of the big clock would also be in synchronicity with the watch on your wrist as much as any other watch.
Now, hop in your imaginary rocket ship and accelerate away from the clock, eventually attaining the speed of light. You look down at the watch on your wrist and.. yup... it's still ticking away at one second intervals just as before, BUT gazing back at that big clock on the wall (through your imaginary super-high strength binoculars that correct for doppler shift :D) reveals that everyone and everything is stood still, and the big clock is no longer ticking. Why? Because you are travelling at the speed of light away from the clock you are in a different time-space, as the image light that you see reflected from the big clock cannot catch up with you and overtake. Nevertheless, all those observing the big clock on the ground continue to move around and observe the passing of time exactly as before, even though to you they look stationary. In other words, they are in a different time space.
Now, should you decelerate your ship to half of the speed of light, then by the same token the big clock on the town-hall wall would appear to be ticking at half-pace, and therein lies the linear relationship of speed of light and time-space.
Without thinking any deeper at this stage (little point for this discussion if OU proves to be unattainable), but might relative time domain and deflection of rotating magnetic fields (which are themselves appreciable as a moving-mass) prove to be the missing ingredient to conventional energy-related equations?
Just maybe, ...I guess :-\
Best wishes - particularly to all the pioneering experimenters here,
FunkyJive
Ok here my first pic, its only the rotor
I use 6 magnets since they are too big so I cannot put 8 magnets on a small wheel like that. I also use a skater bearing.
More later...
Hi all, I'm a newbie on the site, joined up because of this thread, very interesting indeed. My background is in mathematics and software engineering. My take on this is to try and model it with software, but my physics is rusty and not to degree level. So my question is, is anyone else on here aware of others that have tried/started/succeeded in modelling this or something similar? I'm sure it's a massive challenge and probably way out of my league, but ya gotta try. Any links, ideas or references to material would be appreciated.
Hi Skymovingcloud.
Like yourself I'm a newbie here myself, though as your standard of mathematics is good then I'll see if I can encourage my maths-orientated friend and colleague (educated to lecturing standard) to join up and chip in. At-least he may be able to throw in a few algorithms for your to work on, amongst many others here I'm sure.
Tweak factors set aside, good modelling software would doubtless save hours of experimentation to optimise ;)
All the best,
Funkyjive
Quote from: skymovingcloud on January 06, 2008, 02:06:10 PM
Hi all, I'm a newbie on the site, joined up because of this thread, very interesting indeed. My background is in mathematics and software engineering. My take on this is to try and model it with software, but my physics is rusty and not to degree level. So my question is, is anyone else on here aware of others that have tried/started/succeeded in modelling this or something similar? I'm sure it's a massive challenge and probably way out of my league, but ya gotta try. Any links, ideas or references to material would be appreciated.
Funny you say this because past week or so I have been contemplating about a software system that could do physical simulations of magnetic and dynamic interactions between objects. An idea might be to use an existing rigid body dynamics engine (for example ODE, being Open Source) and retrofit it with a magnetic simulation component so that magnets could be added as various bodies in the simulation.
Then I thought, heck there are already 3D applications that contain rigid body dynamics engines built in (for example 3ds max uses Havok and I'm familiar with 3ds max) so why build something from scratch when these applications already provide a real 3D environment to model objects and give them rigid body properties. A (big) task would be the write a plug-in that would simulate magnets and their interactions with other objects. Ideally a simulation with visualization of magnetic lines would be an ultimate goal here.
Of course this is all theoretical for now since I neither have the time nor adequate knowledge to undertake either of the tasks...
@skymovingcloud
This is one of the bigger (if not most promising) developments that I've seen here in the past year or so, with the exception of mike's motor which was never successfully replicated.
Seeing as how this motor was just recently disclosed, it will take some time for replications and reports from third parties to become available.
If and when more success reports are disclosed, only then should we put a considerable amount of effort into modeling and discovering what actually causes this apparent physical anomaly. Until then, we can only speculate. After all, it could indeed all be a hoax.
-------------------------------------
Asides from that, does anyone really know how the maker(s) of this motor believe it works, or what their basic premise is based upon?
Thanks!
Quote from: FunkyJive on January 06, 2008, 02:12:51 PM
Hi Skymovingcloud.
Like yourself I'm a newbie here myself, though as your standard of mathematics is good then I'll see if I can encourage my maths-orientated friend and colleague (educated to lecturing standard) to join up and chip in. At-least he may be able to throw in a few algorithms for your to work on, amongst many others here I'm sure.
Tweak factors set aside, good modelling software would doubtless save hours of experimentation to optimise ;)
All the best,
Funkyjive
Hi Funkyjive,
sounds great.
Best of luck to the constructors too, looking forward to seeing the results.
Cheers,
Sky
Way to go on the replication work! I've begun a compilation here:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor#Replications (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor#Replications)
Let me know as soon as one of you gets one running so we can feature it in our news and stir the excitement even more.
Sterling
@Naklaw and @TheOne
Excellent work guys, well done and keep it coming.
@sterlinga , gawd knows where you get the time too keep that site updated, but good on you and a valuable resource!
I now have too wait for my magnets, but as not being very patient I decided to strip down the Kiss Motor and use the magnets as the N-N-S-S combination is the same. Have added 1 big Block magnet from Gaby's project on a bearing for playing (Talk about recylcling!) and very interesting the effect at around 350RPM when spinning the Rotor forward and the Stator the opposite way, it seems too cog and flip the Stator, but trying to get the Tacho too catch it is a nightmare.. Will knock up a couple more Stator Blocks and see what it goes like. I do not expect alot but something too play with while waiting for correct magnets to arrive.
ummm I knew those holes I drilled to mark the center of each side would come in handy ;D
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Foc6.jpg&hash=df568a7f67fae97d6f8e85116cc1e4e9253ff3d8)
Cheers
Sean.
Hello all, I'm a newby here although I've visited a few times in the past. I must say some of the engineering work being done is quite impressive. I tend to think out of the box most of the time, although, it's good to take a couple trips back in the box once in a while to regain perspective.
znel...
This seems to me to be similar to the Searl motor, in the Searl motor we have rotating cylindrical magnets rotating around a central stationary circular magnetic plate. Here they have done the opposite made the cylindrical rotating magnets stationary and rotated the central circular magnetic plate, is this not equivalent when there are not absolute terms of reference? I have also noted that the number of magnets for the rotor is 8 and for the stator 13. These are Fibonacci numbers, is there a relationship? Just a couple of points to ponder
In case you are interested in a demonstration of how the magnets are magnetically coupled:
Turning the rotor:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9028377735804824913&hl=en
Turning the spinning magnet:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2082838356310248955&hl=en
I am still very sceptical :)
I tried reversing the spinning magnet but I can't find any resonance, I even tried to speed it up in reverse direction with a DC motor...
If you convince me I will build a larger more stable one :)
I understand everyone's excitement and the rush to build something with what-is-at-hand, but we NEED to use the "SAME" magnets and geometry as the original device!
Then convince yourself of it working or not.
Dan
Quote from: naklaw on January 06, 2008, 03:45:26 PM
I am still very sceptical :)
I tried reversing the spinning magnet but I can't find any resonance, I even tried to speed it up in reverse direction with a DC motor...
If you convince me I will build a larger more stable one :)
In the original Video from AL he has 3 stator magnets.
2 at the front are left alone to spin and be influenced by the Rotor.
What he then does is spin the Stator at the back the opposite direction, the stator keeps moving the same way as do the two front stator magnets. When the back Stator has sync'd with the Rotor it seems to hold a steady RPM and then by releasing the breaking effect of the two front stator magnets, the Rotor accelerates to over twice the speed.
It is good to be sceptical, but at the same time too try and copy how he achieves the effect.
At the moment you just have 1 stator. If you spin your rotor you seeing it turns the first stator, now spin the rotor and spin your stator the same direction, see the difference it has? Now add a couple more and play :)
On your Rotor do you have the Magnets SS-NN-SS-NN etc etc
Ok my replication is not working well, my problem is my rotor use 6 magnets and this completely change the interaction between the 8 vs 13 original wheel. 6 vs 13 is not working
I will wait to see what will append with our friends with better replication.
Unless I know the amount of holes needed for the stator magnets with a 6 magnets rotor.
Also the sphere is working but they are vibrating to much in the tube I use and 3 of them is to much, to much noise.. and its hard to move the rotor in my configuration.
I found another version of the video with no dark spot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7fh2RP_uEs&NR=1
He increased the brigthness of the original video
Hi can some one give me the web site of a suppler of magnets this is in the UK
All the Best Roger
With this new video version I posted in my previous post
in the video at aprox 0:38 he show this (circle in the image)
he tell its 2 magneto kinetic Jetson damper?
What is that!!
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 06, 2008, 03:56:00 PM
In the original Video from AL he has 3 stator magnets.
2 at the front are left alone to spin and be influenced by the Rotor.
What he then does is spin the Stator at the back the opposite direction, the stator keeps moving the same way as do the two front stator magnets. When the back Stator has sync'd with the Rotor it seems to hold a steady RPM and then by releasing the breaking effect of the two front stator magnets, the Rotor accelerates to over twice the speed.
It is good to be sceptical, but at the same time too try and copy how he achieves the effect.
At the moment you just have 1 stator. If you spin your rotor you seeing it turns the first stator, now spin the rotor and spin your stator the same direction, see the difference it has? Now add a couple more and play :)
On your Rotor do you have the Magnets SS-NN-SS-NN etc etc
I will buy smaller bearings tomorrow. As can be seen on my pictures, the board has place for three stators, I will try this with the smaller bearings.
Yes, they are mounted SS-NN-SS-NN etc
My stators will be separated by 120 degrees... I don't know any of the parameters/dimensions of the original device :(
Should the stators have a larger inertial mass? My current stator has only a few grams of mass.
Quote from: TheOne on January 06, 2008, 04:09:54 PM
With this new video version I posted in my previous post
in the video at aprox 0:38 he show this (circle in the image)
he tell its 2 magneto kinetic Jetson damper?
What is that!!
"The variant in the video uses the magnokinetic Judson dampers to achieve the same effect of retarding the stator magnet at the critical instant"
"the magneto kinetic Judson Dampers keep the stator magnet at 5000 RPM"
Quote from: naklaw on January 06, 2008, 04:16:09 PM
Quote from: TheOne on January 06, 2008, 04:09:54 PM
With this new video version I posted in my previous post
in the video at aprox 0:38 he show this (circle in the image)
he tell its 2 magneto kinetic Jetson damper?
What is that!!
"The variant in the video uses the magnokinetic Judson dampers to achieve the same effect of retarding the stator magnet at the critical instant"
"the magneto kinetic Judson Dampers keep the stator magnet at 5000 RPM"
To achieve the same effect like the 2 stators he stop at the middle of the video?
Quote from: TheOne
What is that!!
Rogowski coil?
Quote from: tbest
Rogowski coil?
LOL
Think you will find they are just Ally bars.
If you notice in the video when spinning the two front Stator Rollers they will make the Rotor spin. The Back Stator Roller does not because of these two bars effecting the magnetic field.
I understand the theory of using it as a restrictor at high end speeds, but my question is whether the dampners are needed for the overall effect.
[EDIT] Deleted.
Howdy Folks
Well all the parts are on order i.e. bearings, mags, etc. Is or has anyone worked up a set of Cad dwg's for this project?
Feel this would be the way to go so all replicators follow the orginal design. Seeing alot of varients, which could be
good, not following the design.
Just need Al to verfiy that the Dwg's are correct.
Who up to the challange?
Comments
Bill
AL just posted his reply to my question over at the Steorn Forums, great too see someone stick around after releasing a Video for a change, good on him and I feel sorry for the hassle he has been getting :(
********************
@Clanzer: let's see--the position of the rotor when starting the mmanual movement of the stators determines how the rotor behaves with a give stator input. If I swivel one of the stators to just the right angle and hold it against the springy field, then rock it back and forth about 15 degrees, and the rotor is in the right phase, I can keep the rotor rotating continuously at about 1 rps or 60 rpm. If the rotor isn't in the right phase or I don't rock at the right instant (same thing) the rotor stops or reverses direction.
So the fact that it didn't rotate for one magnet at the beginning of that hasty video isn't significant, I don't think.
As I have indicated before there is variance in how the individual magnet/bearing pairs behave. The "middle magnet" in the running rig is the smoothest bearing out of the 13 that I have. I can't tell any variation among the magnets by the means at hand (viewing film, guesstimations of pull strength, etc.) but there does seem to be something "sweet" about the one I ended up using.
I think the dampers are working by keeping the bearing wobble down, and by providing a gentle drag force that disappears when the parts are moving slowly. Eddy, Lenz, and all those things.
Without the dampers the unit seems to speed up to instability, the stator chatters and drops out, and the rotor coasts to a stop.
And one more time: 6061-T6 extruded aluminum bar stock, machined to the exact dimensions of the stator magnets (except I really did use a 3/16 hole, the magnets are a bit bigger here), spaced and oriented by trial and error, and in my unit, the pre-drilled holes for the stator magnets seemed close enough to the sweet positions so I just used them.
*************
Hi Clanzer,
Beautiful build, that should prove to be very adjustable.
It looks very precise and accurate.
I look forward to see your results and I hope to get started on my own build in the next couple of weeks.
I think Al is looking at ways of spinning the stators without getting blisters and also more reliably.
We could do with him coming over to this forum too.
I did suggest using 12v brushless fan motors to drive the stators up to speed.
They are very compact (1" type) but may need connected via a short shaft to avoid magnetic inerference.
Regards
Rob
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 06, 2008, 04:30:42 PM
If you notice in the video when spinning the two front Stator Rollers they will make the Rotor spin. The Back Stator Roller does not because of these two bars effecting the magnetic field.
I understand the theory of using it as a restrictor at high end speeds, but my question is whether the dampners are needed for the overall effect.
If the restrictors only affect high speed rotation then I can not understand why slowly rotating the top stator magnet is not effecting the rotation of the rotor.
Perhaps you can make a small drawing what exacly you have in mind?
B.t.w. Ally bars = aluminum bars?
(sorry, but as many other readers I am not a native speaking American or English man)
Quote from: MeggerMan on January 06, 2008, 04:53:11 PM
I think Al is looking at ways of spinning the stators without getting blisters and also more reliably.
We could do with him coming over to this forum too.
I did suggest using 12v brushless fan motors to drive the stators up to speed.
They are very compact (1" type) but may need connected via a short shaft to avoid magnetic inerference.
Hi Rob
Thx for the compliments.
I do not think AL will come over here as he seems stressed out enough as it is :(
I think a controlled start is an important key and can be done in a number of ways. But first as usual we need to prove this effect to ourselves and once there, start thinking of ways to use control to make it easier.
pcstru4 has done some really nice images of AL's rig and got the thumbs up as being accurate:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fpc1.jpg&hash=8571c7b57ee87819b6cb8f481be7632e828a8df4)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fpc2.jpg&hash=03c4a3403450ce25dc8d261d89447721b47e8a32)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fpc3.jpg&hash=2f2ba42976c30bf8bddced3a96647f92d1b609f4)
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: robbie47
If the restrictors only affect high speed rotation then I can not understand why slowly rotating the top stator magnet is not effecting the rotation of the rotor.
Perhaps you can make a small drawing what exacly you have in mind?
B.t.w. Ally bars = aluminum bars?
(sorry, but as many other readers I am not a native speaking American or English man)
Hi Robbie
Sorry, Ally = Aluminium yes, my bad English ;D
In my previous post the reply from AL seems to dismiss that the aluminium dampners effect the Rotor at slow speeds compared to the other two Stators that do not have the dampners either side.
I am still not sure about this and will only trully know when my replication is complete.
Cheers
Sean.
One asks for a small drawing and you get this as response.
AWESOME!!
Thanks CLaNZeR
Deleted
Quote from: naklaw on January 06, 2008, 04:13:35 PM
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 06, 2008, 03:56:00 PM
In the original Video from AL he has 3 stator magnets.
2 at the front are left alone to spin and be influenced by the Rotor.
What he then does is spin the Stator at the back the opposite direction, the stator keeps moving the same way as do the two front stator magnets. When the back Stator has sync'd with the Rotor it seems to hold a steady RPM and then by releasing the breaking effect of the two front stator magnets, the Rotor accelerates to over twice the speed.
It is good to be sceptical, but at the same time too try and copy how he achieves the effect.
At the moment you just have 1 stator. If you spin your rotor you seeing it turns the first stator, now spin the rotor and spin your stator the same direction, see the difference it has? Now add a couple more and play :)
On your Rotor do you have the Magnets SS-NN-SS-NN etc etc
I will buy smaller bearings tomorrow. As can be seen on my pictures, the board has place for three stators, I will try this with the smaller bearings.
Yes, they are mounted SS-NN-SS-NN etc
My stators will be separated by 120 degrees... I don't know any of the parameters/dimensions of the original device :(
Should the stators have a larger inertial mass? My current stator has only a few grams of mass.
I believe that the stators are NOT equidistant apart. The original design was to be 13 stators I believe. AL is using a stator - 3 stator - 4 stator -3 configuration. The Judsen regulators are around the 4 stator magnet.
@Dansway and @vipond50,
I can?t agree more. The replication should follow the original design as much as possible. So far, @CLaNZeR is doing a fantastic job except maybe for the rotor magnets which have to be cylindrical, as in the original. I'm still waiting for Jdo300's drawings and the magnets and then I'll try to kick in too.
@skymovingcloud,
While I agree with @Dyamios that at this point the important is this to be replicated by third parties it won?t hurt to ask you whether you?re familiar with the finite element and the finite boundary method. These are variational methods in which the space to be analyzed is divided by an appropriate mesh and a variational problem is solved in each triangle of that mesh.
@yorkshireman,
Indeed, that?s the Searl motor as far as I can tell. This looked to me more like the Lego motor, the Grandpaw?s motor and another one with moon and planets. The last too have the planets and the moon mechanically locked, though. So far I thought, the closest appears to be the Lego motor but, yes, this one is more like a replica of the Searl?s motor. @gaby de wilde and @ClaNZeR were working recently on a similar idea too. The thing is, I don?t think Searl has ever had it replicated by a third party. Correct me if I?m wrong.
P.S. Oh, it resembles also the motor by @itseung888, forgot to mention. The closeness to Searl's seems the greatest, though.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 06, 2008, 05:56:31 PM
@skymovingcloud,
While I agree with @Dyamios that at this point the important is this to be replicated by third parties it won?t hurt to ask you whether you?re familiar with the finite element and the finite boundary method. These are variational methods in which the space to be analyzed is divided by an appropriate mesh and a variational problem is solved in each triangle of that mesh.
@Omnibus, I'm not yet, but now's the time to do some learning. Even if I'm not up to the job, I hope to get the ball rolling on the theoretical side, and I do agree that the device needs to be replicated before serious effort is applied. thanks
Quote from: naklaw
I tried reversing the spinning magnet but I can't find any resonance, I even tried to speed it up in reverse direction with a DC motor...
Naklaw
You got a answer from AL over on this thread mate
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60132&page=7
Must admit it is nice to see someone sticking around after posting a video and even better that he is interacting and answering peoples questions.
Hi Yorkshireminer.
A very interesting observation of yours - the 8 and 13 forming part of the Fibonacci sequence.
However, I would personally doubt that this has a specific bearing in this case (though I could be quite wrong of-course), particularly as the wheel will rotate with only one cylindrical magnet with many more than two bar magnets required.
However, I do think that 13 cylinders could be a significant number - namely that it is a prime number. This would at-least ensure that with any number of bar magnets less than thirteen, you would minimise the probability of a stable state as the optima of attraction and repulsion would effectively rotate around the spinning wheel - always at a different speed to its rotational velocity with no common denominator to their ratios.
All the best,
Funkyjive.
Hey Funky,
I'm pretty sure I read that the originator of the device, overconfident, used the Fibronacci series as part of the inspiration for the original concept.
This implementation is a small part of the original design, the full thing used 13 stators.
edit: Actually here's the very original concept and it's 5 stators and 13 rotor magnets. There are various concepts here, all are fibronacci inspired though, I believe.
Not sure how to do the url embed here yet, sorry if this doesn't work.
http://freeenergytrackers.ning.com/photo/photo/show?id=1638621%3APhoto%3A2146
Cheers Noncents.
I'll freely admit that it's purely armchair speculation on my part, until I can build something and do a few tests myself :-[ Such a great thread though, and thought-provoking too, without the usual playground arguments that seem to dog so many forums. I'm not easily led to believe, though my mind remains open to the possibility of something special going on here.
Regrettably I'm tied up in EMP levitation and propulsion stuff, though perfectly happy to learn the rules from the valuable contributions of so many capable engineers and constructors before I can launch myself at this. I do have quite a few N50+ bar Neo's to hand so might try something a little unconventional. It'll probably never work though ;D
All the best,
Funkyjive.
I posted pcstru4's drawings here:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor#Drawings (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor#Drawings)
That's really nice looking work.
If any of you know of a clear presentation of the materials used and assembly instructions, let me know so I can feature that on the PESWiki page as well.
For now, under "Instructions", I'm linking to http://api.ning.com/files/7vd*I4uYJz0a8SWp*rIv4OT6MWD8EAqTvCmrBNYq1Kg_/OCmotor.pdf (http://api.ning.com/files/7vd*I4uYJz0a8SWp*rIv4OT6MWD8EAqTvCmrBNYq1Kg_/OCmotor.pdf)
the aluminium dampers are using lenz law effects, to stabalise and control the spining stator, for what its worth their braking effect will be inverse square, or in other words will increase with the square of the speed. Just something i thought i would mention.
Nice work clanzer, i thought this would light your fire lol..
Hi Craigy.
Could we therefore use Lenz law to good effect by replacing the dampers with inductive loop(s) - to both stabilise motion whilst simultaneously generating an EMF to drive a load?
All the best,
Funkyjive
@Funkyjive,
Your speculation based on Lorentz transformations (not on special relativity?special relativity cannot derive the Lorentz transformations your speculation is based on) is untenable. In this experiment the observation is carried out in the stationary system where both lengths and time are proper. I won?t go here in further explanations as to why also the speculations for time-dilation you are inferring, resulting from the Lorentz transformations, are also non-physical.
@Omnibus response to Funkyjive
"Your speculation based on Lorentz transformations (not on special relativity?special relativity cannot derive the Lorentz transformations your speculation is based on) is untenable. In this experiment the observation is carried out in the stationary system where both lengths and time are proper. I won?t go here in further explanations as to why also the speculations for time-dilation you are inferring, resulting from the Lorentz transformations, are also non-physical. "
God, you are indeed briliant, Omnibus! I never would have thought of that!
Hi Omnibus.
Thanks for your interest, though I was only looking at the Lorentz effect in realtime - given that any damping effect appears to be merely lossy in this application.
In my previous post I was separately speculating upon whether shifts in the time domain could potentially explain OU - if indeed such were proven possible.
Nevertheless, I guess that we all have to open ourselves up to criticism in speculating on the possible cause and effects that we currently know little about. As long as it remains contributory however then I'm all for that ;)
Funkyjive.
@Funkyjive,
I don't mean to stop you from speculating and thinking about these matters the way @alsetalonkin is trying to stop everybody else but himself from thinking on the theoretical issues concerning this (as I said before, on top of that I've found out he's not quite versed in the subtleties of science, unfortunately). When there are flaws, however, in these speculations (no one's thinking is perfect, including mine, of course) these flaws should be pointed out sooner to avoid spending additional time on futile pursuits. As for the principle of conservation of energy (CoE), it has already been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, through a rigorous analysis of an experiment, that CoE can be violated and energy can be produced out of nothing (the term for that in this forum is 'overunity'--thus, 'overunity' is already a scientifically proven phenomenon).
Quote from: Omnibus on January 06, 2008, 09:48:41 PM
@Funkyjive,
I don't mean to stop you from speculating and thinking about these matters the way @alsetalonkin is trying to stop everybody else but himself from thinking on the theoretical issues concerning this
Yes Omnibus. That's why he provided information about all the materials and dimensions and testing techniques so everyone could reproduce and test it themselves.
(as I said before, on top of that I've found out he's not quite versed in the subtleties of science, unfortunately).
And that's why he was the only engineer that saw any promise in an original idea that nobody else would even look at for over 2 months.
When there are flaws, however, in these speculations (no one's thinking is perfect, including mine, of course)
No shit!
these flaws should be pointed out sooner to avoid spending additional time on futile pursuits. As for the principle of conservation of energy (CoE), it has already been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, through a rigorous analysis of an experiment, that CoE can be violated and energy can be produced out of nothing (the term for that in this forum is 'overunity'--thus, 'overunity' is already a scientifically proven phenomenon).
And, as always, every forum topic always degenerates into SMOT.
Hi Everybody,
I can see that there is quite a buzz going on here concerning Al's device! I have finished the 3D CAD model and am currently making some dimensioned drawings for those of us who don't have AutoCAD or a CNC machine laying around. For those of us who do, I will be posting the CAD files as I said before.
I am still waiting to get confirmation about the diameter of the rotor disk. I saw the other 3D renderings that were posted and they look nice but if you take a look at the slots in the rotor disk, they look the same as the drawing that I labeled incorrect. I'm just about ready to post the drawings but I need to know which image is correct. (for those of you wondering what I'm referring to, here's a link to my post earlier in this thread):
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg68313.html#msg68313
The sooner I can get this straightened out, the sooner I can post the information.
God Bless,
Jason O
@rotorhead,
This is not a deterioration of the discussion.On the contrary. The analysis I'm referring to is the first scientifically sound analysis proving violation of CoE.It has to be reminded every time when the word is about machines such as this one because the understanding which is vigorously pushed, including by someone who isn't so versed scientifically, such as @alsetalonkin, is that CoE absolutely cannot be violated. It can. That's the basic premise from which every further discussion should follow.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 06, 2008, 10:10:58 PM
@rotorhead,
This is not a deterioration of the discussion.On the contrary. The analysis I'm referring to is the first scientifically sound analysis proving violation of CoE.It has to be reminded every time when the word is about machines such as this one because the understanding which is vigorously pushed, including by someone who isn't so versed scientifically, such as @alsetalonkin, is that CoE absolutely cannot be violated. It can. That's the basic premise from which every further discussion should follow.
And that's the same premise that every scientist you have ever known goes by as well?
@rotorhead,
That must be the same premise every true scientist must go by.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 06, 2008, 10:35:13 PM
@rotorhead,
That must be the same premise every true scientist must go by.
So how many
true scientists are there? Name some.
@rotorhead,
I cannot engage in offering any names. As is usual in science every scientist is personally responsible for his own stance. What I said above is enough.
http://www.freeenergynews.com/Directory/MagneticMotors/OC_MPMM/BW (http://www.freeenergynews.com/Directory/MagneticMotors/OC_MPMM/BW) - "Contains most of the information relating to the magnetic motor designed by OC and constructed by [Nikolabackwards]. In the text doc 'Judson' you will find the dimensions of the rotor and base plate, ect. I believe you have some of this information already, but some is missing. I am also going to work up a set of AutoCad Drawings based on this file so my replication will be as close to the original as possible." (Paraphrase; Jan. 6, 2008)
I don't know what Al's logic is with releasing information and then deleting it, but here are some of the photos he deleted from the ning group. I recovered them from my browser cache. Maybe someone has a complete set.
Group
Take note that the Rotor mags are Round Cylindrical not Square. See "sense jpg" that Kevin put up
B.
Quote from: vipond50 on January 07, 2008, 01:03:34 AM
Group
Take note that the Rotor mags are Round Cylindrical not Square. See "sense jpg" that Kevin put up
B.
Yes, replicate replicate
But I do not believe it will make much difference wether the magnets are cylindrical or square bar, its the pole orientation that matters.
Just posted:
Al took everything down from here:
http://freeenergytrackers.ning.com/profile/AlSetalokin
Quote on Steorn's forum:
*
Comment Authoralsetalokin
* CommentTime1 minute ago
permalink
Mary, those are all very good ideas. Why, I even thought of some of them myself. And thank you for the introduction to computer video. Why, when I was programming the IBM 360-44 at Trinity University in the early 70's, we had nothing like that at all. Amazing, isn't it?
If I believed it was worth the effort on my part, I would be doing some of them right now. But it isn't worth it, not for me, not right now, I don't have the physical health or the mental stamina to be able to withstand what I'm going through right now. I've just taken down the whole ning site in order to avoid getting into another Omnibus to nowhere with some poster called Kevin, who has copied a few of my pictures from his browser cache (an IE user no doubt, I'm surprised he could find them) and reposted them and started a snotty thread sniping at me.
So what, as aber0der says, he's just bits and pixels to me, so so what...
So what indeed.
Anyway, there isn't any point to investing so much time and effort and hype in a mechanical curiosity that just spins around for a while. You might as well buy some Steorn shares!
Quote from: Omnibus on January 06, 2008, 10:10:58 PM
@rotorhead,
This is not a deterioration of the discussion.On the contrary. The analysis I'm referring to is the first scientifically sound analysis proving violation of CoE.It has to be reminded every time when the word is about machines such as this one because the understanding which is vigorously pushed, including by someone who isn't so versed scientifically, such as @alsetalonkin, is that CoE absolutely cannot be violated. It can. That's the basic premise from which every further discussion should follow.
Omnibus, as you know, it was just this sort of comment that resulted in your banishment from the Steorn forum last night.
In the first place, alsetalokin is far better of a scientist than you will ever hope to be. It's really easy to disparage a person who's not in your presence as "someone who isn't so versed scientifically," isn't it. How churlish. And the only reason you say it is that is he won't agree with your never-ending claim that a non-looped SMOT shows violation of CoE.
Why can't you stop badgering people with that claim? Whether it's true or not, trying to cram it down everyone's throat is not helping your argument, because nobody can accept it. You are like a lawyer who tries to persuade a jury they should find in your favor, because if they don't they're a bunch of stupid a-holes. It just won't work. It doesn't matter whether CoE is violated, either by SMOT, by alsetalokin's device, or by anything else. If it is violated by alsetalokin's device, we'll know soon enough when it's replicated.
So I am guessing that the eventual rotation failure is caused by the stator. If that is the case maybe creating a mechanism that would alternate active stators would resolve the failure problem?
@oak,
I already explained for the umptieth time here in this thread why I?m emphasizing so much and will undoubtedly continue to emphasize at every occasion the importance of the analysis in question. The fact that someone, not very versed in the subtleties of science, as I?ve found out some time ago, doesn?t like it won?t do any good with me. I am on my terms on scientific matters not on his. The person in question, who undoubtedly is a very good technician whom I?ll cite in every paper I write in the future (should this be independently confirmed to be real) as the first to have shown a device continuously producing excess energy and which is an engineering development of the device producing excess energy discontinuously which I have already analyzed and definitively proven to violate CoE, has to be advised to be at least consistent in his actions. Thus, he doesn?t miss an occasion to prevent everyone from discussing the theoretical basis of what he?s done only to shove down the throats of everybody his personal ?theoretical? view that this cannot by any means be violation of CoE (he'll selectively tolerate "theoretical" opinions only of those who go along with his personal take on these matters). This behavior will not only not prevent me but will make me even more determined in presenting the analysis at every appropriate occasion, as I already explained. As for the ?banishment?, I?m hearing it from you because I already made a statement in the Steorn forum that I will not contribute in that forum for a while and when I made that statement there was no ?banishment? or whatever you call it.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 07, 2008, 02:39:08 AM
@oak,
I already explained for the umptieth time here in this thread why I?m emphasizing so much and will undoubtedly continue to emphasize at every occasion the importance of the analysis in question. The fact that someone, not very versed in the subtleties of science, as I?ve found out some time ago, doesn?t like it won?t do any good with me. I am on my terms on scientific matters not on his. The person in question, who undoubtedly is a very good technician whom I?ll cite in every paper I write in the future (should this be independently confirmed to be real) as the first to have shown a device continuously producing excess energy and which is an engineering development of the device producing excess energy discontinuously which I have already analyzed and definitively proven to violate CoE, has to be advised to be at least consistent in his actions. Thus, he doesn?t miss an occasion to prevent everyone from discussing the theoretical basis of what he?s done only to shove down the throats of everybody his personal ?theoretical? view that this cannot by any means be violation of CoE (he'll selectively tolerate "theoretical" opinions only of those who go along with his personal take on these matters). This behavior will not only not prevent me but will make me even more determined in presenting the analysis at every appropriate occasion, as I already explained. As for the ?banishment?, I?m hearing it from you because I already made a statement in the Steorn forum that I will not contribute in that forum for a while and when I made that statement there was no ?banishment? or whatever you call it.
You, sir, are a liar. You know you were banned. You did not say you would not contribute in the Steorn forum, you only said you would not comment in his THREAD, after he got sufficiently angry at your bullying that he left.
So what, anyway, what alsetalokin thinks about where the energy is coming from. He's doing good work. There are no "appropriate occasions" for you to keep badgering people about what YOU think. If people aren't convinced of a CoE violation after successful replications are achieved, argue with them then.
@oak,
The exchange with you on this topic is closed. You'd do better not to annoy further with extraneous trifles the participants in this thread focusing on reproducing the machine.
Assuming that the top stator magnet is taking part in the driving force, I wonder what will happen when one also spins any other stator magnets clockwise. Would that add driving force even more if it succeeds in synchronizing the rotor as well?
I'll try to place such request for experiments to alsetalokinon at the Steorn forum, but I am still on hold for placing comments in this thread, unfortunately
@robbie47,
Why not do the experiment yourself instead of placing requests for experiments? This may allow you to get answers to many other questions as well.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 07, 2008, 05:17:41 AM
@robbie47,
Why not do the experiment yourself instead of placing requests for experiments? This may allow you to get answers to many other questions as well.
I am working on it already.
Are you as well? I haven't seen much practical material from your side.
Anyway, I am only sharing my thoughts in parallel. That's not forbidden here.
The omnibus plague spreads far. The cure isn't always readily available. The mods here are obviously oblivious to the affliction at this point.
@robbie47,
Looking forward to see what you'll come up with. Good luck. And, who says it's forbidden to share your thoughts in parallel? This isn't Steorn forum.
Omnibus is simply waiting for the first simple replication info so he can write a paper and claim expert knowledge and hindsight as to how this was going to be constructed.
Quote from: ebswift on January 07, 2008, 05:40:57 AM
Omnibus is simply waiting for the first simple replication info so he can write a paper and claim expert knowledge and hindsight as to how this was going to be constructed.
It does not matter, the first successful replication of this will have the internet buzzing and omnibus will just be background noise.
@ebswift,
Of course not. The credit, as I've said many times, will go entirely to @alsetalonkin. This is an exceptional engineering achievement of his (if independently confirmed to be real) with an enormous psychological significance for the already proved violation of CoE to be accepted. People who have successfully replicated it should also be mentioned if someone is to write something on the topic.
@RunningBare,
No one doubts that you and several known others would want that to be the case. Why waste bandwidth to say it? Wishful thinking is what it's called.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 07, 2008, 05:52:23 AM
@ebswift,
Of course not. The credit, as I've said many times, will go entirely to @alsetalonkin. This is an exceptional engineering achievement of his (if independently confirmed to be real) with an enormous psychological significance for the already proved violation of CoE to be accepted. People who have successfully replicated it should also be mentioned if someone is to write something on the topic.
Errr, dont you mean "overconfident" and alsetalokin, lets remember where the concept originated from please!
@RunningBare,
No, not at all. I mean only @alsetalonkin. Concept is well known, as was said before.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 07, 2008, 05:52:23 AM
@ebswift,
Of course not. The credit, as I've said many times, will go entirely to @alsetalonkin. This is an exceptional engineering achievement of his (if independently confirmed to be real) with an enormous psychological significance for the already proved violation of CoE to be accepted. People who have successfully replicated it should also be mentioned if someone is to write something on the topic.
Replication is vindication, innovation is commendable, possessiveness of a fellow man's work is deplorable, and people will recognise this as clearly as you clearly don't.
@ebswift,
Replication by independent parties is crucial in scientific matters such as this one. Without such independent replication it is non-existent for science. Therefore, the contribution of those who would have successfully replicated it is on par with the original contribution.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 07, 2008, 06:12:36 AM
@ebswift,
Replication by independent parties is crucial in scientific matters such as this one. Without such independent replication it is non-existent for science. Therefore, the contribution of those who would have successfully replicated it is on par with the original contribution.
The indication of your intentions from that comment would be that you intend to share the glory alongside the discoverers. Bad enough that you ackowledge only the builder (and partial discoverer of an [important] anomaly) and not the person who instigated the whole investigation by their very own ideas. Very arrogant and typical of you Omnibus. Shame.
@ebswift,
Don't worry who shares what. This speaks bad for you.
Shame these were not bigger:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Neodymium-MAGNETS-Od6-x-Id3-x-6nm-DIAMETRIC-TUBE-Qty15_W0QQitemZ130166178999QQihZ003QQcategoryZ147829QQcmdZViewItem
Anyone had Joy in sourcing any Diametrically magnetised tubes in the UK?
Cheers
Sean.
Try this compan in Germany: http://www.monstermagnete.de/
You can get all the magnets custom made, if you order enough, and have the time to wait a few weeks.
They also have some reasonable sizes in stock.
SwinG
@CLaNZeR,
I'll be ordering today the magnets we all agreed upon form K&J and they'll probably arrive sometime by the end of the week. I'd like to send them to you ASAP. I wonder if there wouldn't be someone you know who will be traveling to London from NYC or Boston these days who could help bringing them to you. Trying to help somehow, mate. I'll order two sets--one for you and one for me. Will be talking to a friend who owns a machine shop today so hopefully I could catch up (hopefully Jason finds the right dimension in the meantime).
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 07, 2008, 06:35:11 AM
Shame these were not bigger:..
Anyone had Joy in sourcing any Diametrically magnetised tubes in the UK?
All, FYI:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kjmagnetics.com%2Fimages%2Fdiametrically.jpg&hash=6ffed4b12137e36dd11cc3ff30c163895cc980fd)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kjmagnetics.com%2Fimages%2Faxially.jpg&hash=9695cadc3d5e5b1b1990d5c99cd6346936296ea7)
All rings below are
diametrically magnetized:
(Sorry, not sure about UK availability.)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kjmagnetics.com%2Fprodimages%2FRX04X0DIAL.jpg&hash=86f8e72a15bf59e67e55e2a4c066f422f50f101e)
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RX04X0DIA (http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RX04X0DIA)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kjmagnetics.com%2Fprodimages%2FRC4CDIAL.jpg&hash=d138a9ce8e0befe0a38a0191e688fdf9d8b87e0c)
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RC4CDIA (http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RC4CDIA)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kjmagnetics.com%2Fprodimages%2FR834DIAL.jpg&hash=ccbe0ee4e4ea99d3f3372f5e13e260f19d4b1d18)
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=R834DIA (http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=R834DIA)
@Rosphere,
If I'm not mistaken, the ones we need to order are R834DIA.
Omnibus
Many thanks for your kind offer, but I have already placed the order and paid International shipping which is more expensive than the actual magnets hehe
Hopefully if the company is not too swamped with orders after this weekend, then they should be here by the end of the week.
I have had small packages arrive from the USA within 2 days before.
I have asked AL to confirm the dimensions and given a link to http://www.overunity.org.uk/jdo.html as I do not think he visits these forums.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 07, 2008, 06:49:42 AM
@CLaNZeR,
I'll be ordering today the magnets we all agreed upon form K&J and they'll probably arrive sometime by the end of the week. I'd like to send them to you ASAP. I wonder if there wouldn't be someone you know who will be traveling to London from NYC or Boston these days who could help bringing them to you. Trying to help somehow, mate. I'll order two sets--one for you and one for me. Will be talking to a friend who owns a machine shop today so hopefully I could catch up (hopefully Jason finds the right dimension in the meantime).
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 07, 2008, 06:35:11 AM
Shame these were not bigger:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Neodymium-MAGNETS-Od6-x-Id3-x-6nm-DIAMETRIC-TUBE-Qty15_W0QQitemZ130166178999QQihZ003QQcategoryZ147829QQcmdZViewItem
Anyone had Joy in sourcing any Diametrically magnetised tubes in the UK?
Cheers
Sean.
Do not ask me how to mount them, but these are diametrically polarized, perhaps someone can figure it out.
http://www.singingmagnets.com/
Quote from: SwinG on January 07, 2008, 06:47:14 AM
Try this compan in Germany: http://www.monstermagnete.de/
Hi Swing
Thx for the link.
They do a few Diametrically magnetised Rings as well, just not the size we need :(
I like the Epoxy covered ones http://www.monstermagnete.de/catalog/index.php?cPath=109
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: RunningBare
Do not ask me how to mount them, but these are diametrically polarized, perhaps someone can figure it out.
http://www.singingmagnets.com/
LOL I got some of these from my kids last Xmas.
Ummm I wonder hehe ;D ;D
@All,
We never found out what exact part number is of the 8 cylindrical rotor magnets, correct?
Oh, and the bearings, the non-ferromagnetic bearings. Where are we to get them from?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 07, 2008, 07:09:42 AM
@All,
We never found out what exact part number is of the 8 cylindrical rotor magnets, correct?
Oh, and the bearings, the non-ferromagnetic bearings. Where are we to get them from?
I think AL did not order in the Rod magnets and just used what he lying around. OC's original plans show block magnets.
Ceramic bearings are expensive I bought a couple last year from a online skate shop, they were really loose but after I span them up over 10'000 RPM they were useless :(
@CLaNZeR,
Do you know what are the bearing in his machine, I didn't catch that? As for the rotor magnets--do you at least know their dimensions? I'll order the rectangular for now but I think we have to be as close to the original as possible.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 07, 2008, 07:06:20 AM
Hi Swing
Thx for the link.
They do a few Diametrically magnetised Rings as well, just not the size we need :(
I like the Epoxy covered ones http://www.monstermagnete.de/catalog/index.php?cPath=109
Cheers
Sean.
I have ordered these:
http://www.monstermagnete.de/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=788
http://www.monstermagnete.de/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=106
http://www.monstermagnete.de/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=779
http://www.monstermagnete.de/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=800
That should give me something to play with ;D
They make custom also.
http://www.monstermagnete.de/catalog/index.php?editorial=8
You just have to wait for the production, and there is a minimum order of ~50.
Yes, the black epoxy looks great.
SwinG
Is that bearing good enough: http://www.raidentech.com/11h04-08.html
Quote from: Omnibus on January 07, 2008, 07:49:43 AM
Is that bearing good enough: http://www.raidentech.com/11h04-08.html
It does not really give a spec on that link.
The ones I have used are MF63ZZ 3X6X2.5 from http://www.technobots.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Miniature_Flanged_Ball_Bearings_385.html
But I am doing it different too the way AL has monted his Rotor.
If I find the Top bar is a hinderance then I will probably mount the bearings in the Rotor and use a shaft poking up from the base as AL did.
I will mount the Stator bearings using the 3mm Flange bearings also but they will be on shafts.
Worth doing a search for flanged miniature bearings as over in the states you are going to be spoilt for choice I reckon.
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 06, 2008, 10:10:06 PM
Hi Everybody,
I can see that there is quite a buzz going on here concerning Al's device! I have finished the 3D CAD model and am currently making some dimensioned drawings for those of us who don't have AutoCAD or a CNC machine laying around. For those of us who do, I will be posting the CAD files as I said before.
I am still waiting to get confirmation about the diameter of the rotor disk. I saw the other 3D renderings that were posted and they look nice but if you take a look at the slots in the rotor disk, they look the same as the drawing that I labeled incorrect. I'm just about ready to post the drawings but I need to know which image is correct. (for those of you wondering what I'm referring to, here's a link to my post earlier in this thread):
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg68313.html#msg68313
The sooner I can get this straightened out, the sooner I can post the information.
God Bless,
Jason O
Hi Jason,
I found this from a quote of Al, in the Peswiki .txt file named Judson.
"That's good, because I just invented them yesterday.
Magnokinetic because that's what they are damping;
dampers because that's what they do; Judson, because,
well, somebody I used to know went to high school there.
A dimensioned sketch of the bearing/magnet holder assembly is posted on the other site. The baseplate that I am using is acrylic plastic, 5/8 in thick, 7 3/4 in x 8 1/2 in,
with a 1/4-20 threaded hole in the center for the rotor axle, and 13 evenly-spaced 4-40 threaded holes for the stator magnet bearing holders, on a circle of radius 3 3/8 in centered on the axle.
The rotor is 3/4 in thick piece of HDPE plastic, 2 7/8 in radius, with a 0.500 in center hole bored all the way thru for the flanged axle bearings. Magnets are held in 8 evenly-spaced 1/4 in wide slots, 7/16 in deep, inner edge of slots at the 2 1/2 in radius from center.This is the basic layout for the 13x8 version that I am experimenting with. But I am mostly just using 3 stator magnets and a couple of "dummy" aluminum pieces of the same size as the magnets, also mounted in the same type of bearing holder.
The stator magnets are mounted by a single trimmed 4-40 SHCS and a little washer to make sure only the inner bearing race is contacting the screw or the baseplate.
The rotor magnets are press-fit in place."
I hope that helps you to finish the CAD drawings.
God Bless,
Bruce
AL's reply to regards jdo's question:
***********
My practice on prototyping is to whittle and gnaw on things first, big non-critical dimensions may be only approximate, then when I am forced to draw or otherwise document things, I " rationalize" these dimensions.
So if the rotor blank comes out 4.878 or something weird like that once I've got it faced and trued, that's fine for prototyping, but I am most likely to rationalize that non-critical dimension and make it 5.000 on the drawing or documentation.
You follow?
Sorry if that throws anyone off. I am aware that you folks are doing photogrammetry over there, believe me it isn't necessary.
Here's an actual set of measurements made right now:
Material HDPE
rotor diameter 144 mm
rotor thickness 18 mm
distance from OUTER EDGE of rotor, on a radius, to INNER EDGE of magnet slots 13 mm
slots are symmetrically arrayed, 1/4 " nominal width, 12 mm depth
slots cut in a single pass with a 2-fluted end mill 0.250"
I hope that helps.
Hi CLaNZeR,
Thanks! That clears that issue up now.
Now, there is still one thing I don't have information about and that is the metal plug in the center that he mounted the 3.5mm bearings in for the rotor. As I understand it, he just used a screw with press-fitted flange bearings in an earlier model. I am interested in knowing if that would be sufficient for it to work or if the added stability from the machined bearing plug is necessary. If so, I would like to get more information on it to include in the blueprints. At the moment, I just have a 1/4"/ 20 bolt for a shaft in the 3D model with the press-fitted bearings.
Could you also pass this along to him?
@Omnibus & Everyone,
I noticed some have questions about the rotor magnets. If you look at the overlaid drawing I posted of the rotor disk, you can see that it is a cylinder magnet that is 1/4" in diameter and just slightly longer that 0.5". My best guess is that it is 9/16" long from the image. The nearest size that KJ Magnetics carries is part number D48. I also recall that Al mentioned on the forum that the magnets were about 0.5" long.
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: Jdo300
Now, there is still one thing I don't have information about and that is the metal plug in the center that he mounted the 3.5mm bearings in for the rotor. As I understand it, he just used a screw with press-fitted flange bearings in an earlier model. I am interested in knowing if that would be sufficient for it to work or if the added stability from the machined bearing plug is necessary. If so, I would like to get more information on it to include in the blueprints. At the moment, I just have a 1/4"/ 20 bolt for a shaft in the 3D model with the press-fitted bearings.
Could you also pass this along to him?
Hi Jason
I think this has remained the same but not 100% sure.
If truthfull as well, he has probably covered this in one of the 1000+ posts across different threads over at the Steorn Forums and I think the repeated questions are wearing himself and OC down. So I do not want to personaly hassle him anymore.
At the end of the day a simple shaft mounted in the base should do and cannot see it being a major issue as long as the design creates the least friction and movement.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: kevin on January 07, 2008, 12:50:10 AM
I don't know what Al's logic is with releasing information and then deleting it, but here are some of the photos he deleted from the ning group. I recovered them from my browser cache. Maybe someone has a complete set.
Thanks for that Kevin
Especially this one as it shows the Dampners perfectly :)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D3871.0%3Battach%3D16283%3Bimage&hash=b40704076149f8a3c0a4440c568570f709202360)
Cheers
Sean.
@ CLaNZaR,
Yeah, good point. I'll just go with what we have now. I will have the blueprints completed this evening to post online.
@ Kevin,
I had all the photos from his website except for that one too. Thanks! I'll add the dampers to my 3D model as well. I am out right now but will post some images of the model when I get home, and the drawings + CAD Docs later tonight.
God Bless,
Jason O
All,
Stainless steel bearings are non-ferromagnetic and relatively cheap compared to ceramic.
Having non ferro magnetic bearings is a very good idea. Having non "conducting" bearings is much better. If you pass a magnetic field through a conductor, the magnetic field tries to move the electrons through the condutor, this is how generators work.
So, if you have a conductor in the magnetic fields you are whirling around, the fields will move the electrons within the conductor, and cause drag. Not just with iron, but copper, aluminum or any conductor. This drag can be small, but perhaps this drag is one of the things that keeps many promising designs from working. Perhaps.
@CLaNZeR,
Just to let you know. K&J are nowhere to be found today. Extended vacation, I guess. Hope it won't affect the delivery of your magnets.
well this a very interesting video....
lets see....
i noticed that the back stator magnet has less effect on main wheel than the 2 close stator magnets when he spins them in his video.
this could be a slight design flaw...but it might be important!
working with magnets you find that even a 3mm difference in distance with such small magnets equals a lot more or less magnetic force.
the aluminum bars also seem to have some effect on the magnetic flux patterns and not so much a braking effect.
maybe this is part of the key to solving the sticky spot situations with other designs.......
besides the poor lighting and not a full view of this...
it's either the best fake in a while or the real thing...don't get your hope up yet.
Quote from: crash_uni8 on January 07, 2008, 07:54:43 PM
well this a very interesting video....
lets see....
i noticed that the back stator magnet has less effect on main wheel than the 2 close stator magnets when he spins them in his video.
this could be a slight design flaw...but it might be important!
working with magnets you find that even a 3mm difference in distance with such small magnets equals a lot more or less magnetic force.
the aluminum bars also seem to have some effect on the magnetic flux patterns and not so much a braking effect.
maybe this is part of the key to solving the sticky spot situations with other designs.......
besides the poor lighting and not a full view of this...
it's either the best fake in a while or the real thing...don't get your hope up yet.
@ Crash
I made the same observation and mentioned it today to JDO300 (Jason) He thought that the reason for less effect of the back stator, when Al was turning each one by hand, could be the effect of the dampners on both sides of that stator. I agree. If the distance to the rotor and the back stator is identical as the other two stators, and the magnet is identical on the back stator, which it is, then Jason's conclusion seems reasonable.
I believe that Al stated that the dampers were added later to slow the RPM's, (What a great problem to have to overcome!! ) so it is not needed to run..
Lastly, if you read all of the posts, it is an incredible story with a great ending, which is really a new beginning. IMHO. Very soon, and Jason will have a detailed set of replication cad drawings, and we can go to town on this project. I am slowing my other projects (not quitting them! ;) ), just for this, because of the importance of replication, etc.
Cheers,
Bruce
Is everyone waiting for magnets?
Hi Everyone,
OK, I FINALLY finished the 3D model with all the bells and whistles. I modified the rotor disk dimensions to fit the measurements given by Al. I am now working on drawing up some dimensioned drawings from the 3D model and will be posting those soon. In the mean time, here are a few photos of the model I made.
By the way, I also ordered some magnets from K&J Magnetics today so I'm in as well :).
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: crash_uni8 on January 07, 2008, 07:54:43 PM
I noticed that the back stator magnet has less effect on main wheel than the 2 close stator magnets when he spins them in his video.
this could be a slight design flaw...but it might be important!
Have a look at the marvelous 3D pictures of Jason.
As you can see there are 8 rotor magnet and 13 stator magnet positions.
It could well be that the top stator magnet of the video is not moving as fast as the lower 2 because of its position w.r.t. the stator magnet at this particular rotor position. So asymmetry could also contribute to be the reason.
Intreging stuff those dampers, I must admit.
Hi All,
a I am on vacation and have only slow PDA access and can not see the video, please can somebody post a few screenshots of the video as Jpeg pics less than 30 Kbytes ?
Where is that damper located and are these magnets in the rotor slits and can they move there ?
Hi Stefan,
The rotor magnets are fixed while the three stator magnets rotate. Roughly, what he does is after several attempts he manages to synchronize the rotor with one of the stators (the starting procedure isn't still clear to me--he says it's a result of a mistake he made; I think @CLaNZeR understands it better than anyone at this point as far as I can tell) which causes the rotor suddenly to accelerate spontaneously from several hundred to over one thousand rpms. The interesting things don't end here, however. At a certain moment he stops by hand two of the three rotating stator magnets and the rpms increase even further to about four to five thousand rpms. He says he has seen it run in this manner, without external energy supply, for three hours after which is stops for hitherto unknown reason. The video ends abruptly after several minutes of spinning because, he says, his camera got out of memory. At first I dismissed it out of hand because it isn't a self-starter but then I saw the above and that really caught my interest. This is similar to the Lego motor idea but the Lego appears to be a self-starter (and of course no details about the Lego are known so that we can replicate it). It was pointed out earlier and I agree that this is in fact Searl motor idea. It is in this instance, however, openly demonstrated for others to reproduce it. Sorry can't post stills right now but they won't tell much. You've got to see the video. Jason's rendition is excellent and you can get the idea about the construction. The dampers at this point seem to be of secondary importance and are just additions to stabilize the spin at high rpms with not much of a role at low rpms. This is very briefly the situation the way I've understood it so far.
Hi Jason
What CAD software are you using please?
Great work!
Hi Jason, very nice drawing. Regardless of any pre-existing images, going from the top image of yours and comparing to the video, it looks like the stator on the lower-right needs to go up one notch. Both non-dampened stators should be located in the centre of two of the rotor magnets whilst the dampened stator should be exactly in-between two of the rotor magnets. The dampened stator would then be exactly in-between the other two stators with a count (inclusive) of three rotor magnets to each non-dampened stator from the dampened stator.
Oops I didn't notice that when I went off Jdo300 model and created my own. Oh well, easily fixable.
I just did a simple fly around animation sketchup for people on youtube that might want to see what it looks like from different angles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lei5_IPtLXU
Thanks to Oak for some extra pictures.
This one may help abit Jason regards the Axle:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fal10.jpg&hash=b0226bab2b9fbfa80ba48be0ce0a7f0e95e01548)
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: ebswift on January 08, 2008, 06:16:37 AM
Both non-dampened stators should be located in the centre of two of the rotor magnets whilst the dampened stator should be exactly in-between two of the rotor magnets. The dampened stator would then be exactly in-between the other two stators with a count (inclusive) of three rotor magnets to each non-dampened stator from the dampened stator.
That should be investigated further since Al mentioned following on that at the Steorn forum:
I haven't used the Dremel in a long time, not since the positioning trials for the magnokinetic Judson dampers.Having in mind that he originally used this setup with 13 stator magnets with the intended holes already in there, Al has obviously tweaked around more on different positions of his dampers.
Quote from: rotorhead on January 07, 2008, 10:39:43 PM
Is everyone waiting for magnets?
Just started making the Stator holders this end, but waiting for the magnets :(
Quote from: robbie47
I haven't used the Dremel in a long time, not since the positioning trials for the magnokinetic Judson dampers
A while a go I built a Dremel Rig too spin up Rotors as below.
Now I use an air compressor, less noise and much safer ;D ;D
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2FDremelRig.jpg&hash=968636eb779ffd36558232f38e1c383a2204f199)
http://www.freeenergynews.com/Directory/MagneticMotors/OC_MPMM/BW/SenseCoil.png (http://www.freeenergynews.com/Directory/MagneticMotors/OC_MPMM/BW/SenseCoil.png) - "Pic of the sensing coil that was use in some of the testing. Also it give excellent detail of the Judson damper." (B.W.; Jan. 7)
Added to http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor#B.W._Files (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor#B.W._Files)
Hi Jdo300
Nice work,
Just a note to add, as ebswift also pointed out and as alsetalokin posted few days back, and from the actuall device pics, the stator dumper arrangement on the 13 holes is as follows.
D S D E E S E E E E S E E
where D=dumper, S=stator, E=empty
see also http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.135.html
I hope this helps for a more accurate replication.
Quote from: sterlinga
http://www.freeenergynews.com/Directory/MagneticMotors/OC_MPMM/BW/SenseCoil.png (http://www.freeenergynews.com/Directory/MagneticMotors/OC_MPMM/BW/SenseCoil.png) - "Pic of the sensing coil that was use in some of the testing. Also it give excellent detail of the Judson damper." (B.W.; Jan. 7)
@sterlinga
I have managed to gradually collect a few photo's mainly from people emailing them over from their IE explorer caches LOL !
If you want to take a copy and pop them up on your site then feel free too.
http://www.overunity.org.uk
Cheers
Sean.
@ All
I found this interesting post by Al. It says a lot. IMHO.
"With rotor magnets installed, stator magnets installed, stator magnets free to move but not spinning, rotor initial rpm 1250, rundown time ~120-125 seconds.
Same as above but with stator magnets (3) spinning gearwise, initial rpm 1250, rundown time ~ 90-100 seconds.
Same as above but with stator magnets removed and far away, initial rotor RPM 1250, rundown time ~ 130-140 seconds.
Same as above but with stator magnets screwed down hard to baseplate, not moveable, initial rotor RPM 1250, rundown time ~110-120 seconds, with a distinctly "coggy" feel and a reversal of direction at the very last revolution.
All 3 stator magnets installed and spinning, 2 gearwise and 1 antigearwise, max rpm and rundown time UNKNOWN."
@btebtzer,
Isn't this exactly the effect that caught our attention, which he discovered by mistake--having two stators turn gearwise whilst the third turning anti-gearwise?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 08, 2008, 01:53:12 PM
@btebtzer,
Isn't this exactly the effect that caught our attention, which he discovered by mistake--having two stators turn gearwise whilst the third turning anti-gearwise?
Of course. ;)
But I like the details. ;D
Attached Video.
@Jdo300,
@mikestocks made a good point. It seems to me, however that the stators are equidistant while one of the dampers is closer to the stator than the other. What do you think?
@btebtzer,
Oh, sure. Thanks for posting that text.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 08, 2008, 02:24:45 PM
Attached Video.
Aaahhhh, this makes us all very curious.
What do we actually see here on the stator magnets?
Is one of these clockwise and the other counterclockwise?
Guess you are tweaking now to get this baby running for an hour or so?
(while protecting your ears ;-)
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 08, 2008, 02:24:45 PM
Attached Video.
Great, but am i seeing here ? Is this a spin down ? or ????
Thanks CLaNZeR
Bill
Quote from: vipond50
Great, but am i seeing here ? Is this a spin down ? or ????
Thanks CLaNZeR
Bill
Hi Bill
You are only seeing a Spin Down.
I have done hundreds of spin downs over the last year on different projects and even got one wheel to spin down from 100 RPM taking over 4 minutes by using minature bearings.
This Rotor is loose using the 3mm RC bearings and that is all the video shows really.
I am just playing till the proper magnets arrive and hoping by going for the loosest bearings I can, that I will cut my friction losses from the bearings atleast, HOPEFULLY that will allow me to replicate the weird effect we see in AL's Rig happen.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: robbie47
Aaahhhh, this makes us all very curious.
What do we actually see here on the stator magnets?
Is one of these clockwise and the other counterclockwise?
Guess you are tweaking now to get this baby running for an hour or so?
(while protecting your ears ;-)
Hi Robbie
I tried for a while flicking one of the Stator magnets the opposite way, but no increase shown by the Laser Tacho.
In saying that the Stator magnets are so small that I would not expect too see it.
Just playing till the correct magnets arrive.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 08, 2008, 02:24:45 PM
Attached Video.
FAKE! No jamming tunes to go with it!
Sean
First off you do nice work and did a test like yours last night, but after watching the video is did you spin one Stator magnets CCW and rotor CW. I think this is only way this will run. I also wait for my parts and will play.
Wayne
Quote from: magpower on January 08, 2008, 03:46:35 PM
Sean
First off you do nice work and did a test like yours last night, but after watching the video is did you spin one Stator magnets CCW and rotor CW. I think this is only way this will run. I also wait for my parts and will play.
Wayne
Hi Wayne
As stated 3 posts above I did try flicking the stator magnets, but they are just slid over some brass screws and not secure anyway.
Have drawn up the plans for the Stator magnets but before machining out I await the correct stator magnets to make sure I have got the sizes correct.
Good luck with your replication and get some pictures up!
Cheers
Sean.
Sean
opps didn't read that, but I am using 1" long rectangle blocks and same size dia mags on stator. For now I put them in small tubes so they spin but will rig something tonight so I can spin the one stator. It sure makes a noise mind you. Will post some pics soon but wanted to fix this first.
Best Of Luck
Wayne
this setup looks interesting!
but is it really slowing down? Can we get a daylight video?
Longer one? To see if and when it stops?
Where can this "backward Nikolatesla" guy be contacted?
thnx!
s.
Quote from: mikestocks2006 on January 08, 2008, 11:34:54 AM
Hi Jdo300
Nice work,
Just a note to add, as ebswift also pointed out and as alsetalokin posted few days back, and from the actuall device pics, the stator dumper arrangement on the 13 holes is as follows.
D S D E E S E E E E S E E
where D=dumper, S=stator, E=empty
see also http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.135.html
I hope this helps for a more accurate replication.
Thanks everyone for the heads up on the positioning of the stators. I corrected the model and re-uploaded the images to my last post:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg68853.html#msg68853
I also have finished the drawings and CAD Docs. In addition to that, I also made some 1:1 scale templates of the base plate and rotor disk for those who want to build this by hand.
I have attached dimensioned drawings of all the parts in PDF format and also the templates for the base plate and rotor disk.
There are also three zip files with CAD drawings of the parts in SAT, IGS, and DXF formats. If anyone has any comments or suggestions concerning the drawings please let me know.
God Bless,
Jason O
Excellent Jason!
Is it okay ok if I upload these to my site at http://www.overunity.org.uk and setup a plans link?
Cheers
Sean.
Sure, feel free to copy and distribute. Just let them know I made them in case anyone wants any further CAD work done :).
God Bless,
Jason O
@Jdo300,
Thanks Jason. Great job. I'm still a bit confused about the dampers, though. It appears to me one of the dampers is closer to the stationary magnet than the other. Could you please take another look.
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 08, 2008, 04:50:59 PM
Sure, feel free to copy and distribute. Just let them know I made them in case anyone wants any further CAD work done :).
God Bless,
Jason O
All added mate
and of course your name is next to them TUT, would I have it any other way ? ;D
Will see if I can get time to turn your DXF files into Gcode and add tot he same page.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 08, 2008, 04:55:44 PM
@Jdo300,
Thanks Jason. Great job. I'm still a bit confused about the dampers, though. It appears to me one of the dampers is closer to the stationary magnet than the other. Could you please take another look.
Looking through the many pictures there is a mixture of old and new bases.
The base that was used in the demo seems to be the one below.
This shows there are no extra holes apart from the 13 Stator holes which says to me , maybe the Dampners are indeed in TO-BE Stator holder holes.
In saying this, the reason they are in those holes is confusing as in one of the many threads, AL stated the positioning of the dampners were hit and miss, but he probably meant where in the stator holes.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fsnoc6.jpg&hash=9506651d96ffcd01b8d74baf12f40c94c648a80b)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fsl3.jpg&hash=74a30896b0bab934c9cbbed713a396229562809f)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fsnoc14.jpg&hash=6a837a2b6e66fbbdf66a60e790751cdb4e89ae98)
@CLaNZeR,
I'm looking at the actual video and it seems the dampers there aren't evenly spaced. Can you please take another look at that video. I may be wrong.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 08, 2008, 05:16:41 PM
@CLaNZeR,
I'm looking at the actual video and it seems the dampers there aren't evenly spaced. Can you please take another look at that video. I may be wrong.
I can see what you are saying, because as we look at the video the left hand side dampner looks closer, but I am sure this is just the video angle.
Checkout this enhanced brighter version.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2Ck9xC4S44
At first when you look at the base, it looks like there are dash holes on the stator plate between each Stator mount hole, but I am sure this is just a shadow cause by the light.
Awesome Job Jason :D
Thanks for doing all that work, very much appreciated
Bill
I don't know, still seems closer. This is a detail, however. We'll see what the truth is when the magnets arrive and we start playing with it.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 08, 2008, 05:09:41 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 08, 2008, 04:55:44 PM
@Jdo300,
Thanks Jason. Great job. I'm still a bit confused about the dampers, though. It appears to me one of the dampers is closer to the stationary magnet than the other. Could you please take another look.
Looking through the many pictures there is a mixture of old and new bases.
The base that was used in the demo seems to be the one below.
This shows there are no extra holes apart from the 13 Stator holes which says to me , maybe the Dampners are indeed in TO-BE Stator holder holes.
In saying this, the reason they are in those holes is confusing as in one of the many threads, AL stated the positioning of the dampners were hit and miss, but he probably meant where in the stator holes.
Hi CLaNZeR,
The dampers are on the 2 of the 13 predrilled holes flanking the stator.
Also see alsetalokin's post
"...And one more time: 6061-T6 extruded aluminum bar stock, machined to the exact dimensions of the stator magnets (except I really did use a 3/16 hole, the magnets are a bit bigger here), spaced and oriented by trial and error, and in my unit, the pre-drilled holes for the stator magnets seemed close enough to the sweet positions so I just used them."
I hope this helps
Quote from: mikestocks2006
The dampers are on the 2 of the 13 predrilled holes flanking the stator.
Also see alsetalokin's post
"...And one more time: 6061-T6 extruded aluminum bar stock, machined to the exact dimensions of the stator magnets (except I really did use a 3/16 hole, the magnets are a bit bigger here), spaced and oriented by trial and error, and in my unit, the pre-drilled holes for the stator magnets seemed close enough to the sweet positions so I just used them."
Thanks Mike
Missed that last line, but seems to clear it up and makes life easier!.
Cheers
Sean.
Sean,
Check your email.
Quote from: rotorhead on January 08, 2008, 06:13:15 PM
Sean,
Check your email.
Hi mate
Last email I got from you was at 21:00 and I replied, you sure your Spam filter is not binning my replies again LOL ;D
Hi All,
Glad you like the CAD drawings. Just wondering, would anyone who has CNC capability be willing to cut parts out for me if I could buy the supplies and send them to you? I could conceivably do this by hand but I would rather have it done right.
God Bless,
Jason O
can i ask what peoples preferd cad software is ?
thanks
andy
Hi
I Use AutoCad 2008 and AutoCad Inventor, Also AutoCad Maya 08 version
Worked with others, but i guess i am stuck in a rut.
Bill
Maybe someone will put together/provide a replication kit?, could be a nice little earner for someone with access to a CNC machine...
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 08, 2008, 06:58:25 PM
Hi All,
Glad you like the CAD drawings. Just wondering, would anyone who has CNC capability be willing to cut parts out for me if I could buy the supplies and send them to you? I could conceivably do this by hand but I would rather have it done right.
God Bless,
Jason O
Jason,
Let me check with Techshop We might be able to use the CNC there. Let's talk about it.
Hank
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 08, 2008, 06:58:25 PM
Hi All,
Glad you like the CAD drawings. Just wondering, would anyone who has CNC capability be willing to cut parts out for me if I could buy the supplies and send them to you? I could conceivably do this by hand but I would rather have it done right.
God Bless,
Jason O
Jason, I have a CNC lathe and CNC mill. We could give it a try. I use Bobcad. Your DXF baseplate and rotor drawings imported right into it.
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 08, 2008, 06:58:25 PM
Hi All,
Glad you like the CAD drawings. Just wondering, would anyone who has CNC capability be willing to cut parts out for me if I could buy the supplies and send them to you? I could conceivably do this by hand but I would rather have it done right.
God Bless,
Jason O
Jason
You did a great job and must of took allot of time. I wish I had CNC machine but only small lathe. But on your rotor pdf drawing is it possible to have a center dot or X on circle. Makes is more accurate for center and if someone wants a smaller shaft like me.
Thanks Again
Wayne
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 08, 2008, 06:58:25 PM
Hi All,
Glad you like the CAD drawings. Just wondering, would anyone who has CNC capability be willing to cut parts out for me if I could buy the supplies and send them to you? I could conceivably do this by hand but I would rather have it done right.
God Bless,
Jason O
Hi Jason,
I might be able to do it. I don't have access to a CNC but I work right up the street from a plastic place that does CNC work and might be able to get up there during work sometime this week and see what they can do. Is there any metal CNC work that needs to be done also?
It looks to me like the motor is mostly plastic. I definitely want to build one of these. Also a friend of mine is interested in building one also. If no one else can do it I may be able to. But if someone already has access and can do this for us I'd sure like to get some prices. Thanks.
Brad
Quote from: hanker886 on January 08, 2008, 08:10:07 PM
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 08, 2008, 06:58:25 PM
Hi All,
Glad you like the CAD drawings. Just wondering, would anyone who has CNC capability be willing to cut parts out for me if I could buy the supplies and send them to you? I could conceivably do this by hand but I would rather have it done right.
God Bless,
Jason O
Jason,
Let me check with Techshop We might be able to use the CNC there. Let's talk about it.
Hank
Thanks Hank. I'll take you up on that.
@ Everyone, thanks for the generous offers for help. After I get this first model in my hands and can show that it works, the next step will be to make a more adjustable version (like CLaNZeR's) so we can try out different magnet configurations.
@ Wayne,
I replaced the Template files in the CAD Files post with files containing centerline marks for the holes. Let me know if this helps.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg69004.html#msg69004
God Bless,
Jason O
Hi Jason,
Thank you for the great work with your limited time, on the drawings.
I have ordered my magnets, and will check on those bearings for us, tomorrow.
It won't be long and we will be up and kicking...Oops! Wrong thread....up and rotating! LOL ;D
Cheers,
Bruce
Hi Guys,
Nice work on the replications so far, here is a few of mine from the past:-
torbays replication...Unsuccessful
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=5291826833015915174
Effect of aluminium turntable on small magnet rotor:-
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=5120456679111181820
Kundel magnet motor...Succesful, using two solenoids with timing disk
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-1674978842555764354
Some people here will know me from before, I'm going to give this ago, as I have a stack of magnets from my previous projects
they are rectangle mostly, I do have some ring magnets, but ill try with the small rectangle ones first.
Dom
Hello Group
The time has come to seek a specification on the Stator bearings
In my Rep I will be hopefully using a bearing of the following specification.
Basic Spec.
ID - 0.25", OD - 0.5", Thk - .125 or Metric equivalent, *Free spin*
Material - 300(316) series Stainless
Application - Bearing going into a magnetic application, so needs to of the Non magnetic type, Operational speed in the order of 4K rpm
Have RFI 's out to various vendors and hope to here from them soon.
Note: I would prefer to have a flange type, but may have to settle for the standard shell.
Was interested in the bearing choices the other replicators are planning on incorporating because i feel this is an critical aspect of the device operation.
This is the reason for this Inquiry and Posting ;D
Bill
Teflon bearings out of no longer working hard disk drives make great bearings
Quote from: Dom on January 09, 2008, 08:05:50 AM
Teflon bearings out of no longer working hard disk drives make great bearings
Dom
Are thinking of the fluid dynamic bearing use by Western Digital ?
Problem here is availability of off the shelf components, so this would be a variant to the replication, correct?
Bill
How about a group buy of the machined parts from a place like eMachineshop.com?
Got my 1/4 * 1/4 * 1/4 cubes today. So marked them up and mounted in Rotor.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fcuberotor1.jpg&hash=ed8b840db0523a146eed500b33d387ada65f05b5)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fcuberotor2.jpg&hash=806001929cddc2a1cec8a31fc318283fb18e9fbf)
Now just waiting for the Stator Magnets.
Cheers
Sean.
I don't think so Bill, FDB are or would be fairly new,,,, 3 of the drives that I rippped them out of are 80 to 100gig, ibm, is definitely one of them, The main spindle bearing has the backing plate which you can unscrew of the drive and use the whole assembly as is on the magnet motor board, there's another bearing which is the read/write arm bearing....
Thats what i'll be using, ask for defective drives at your local pc supplier, you might be surprised they might come to your aid.
Harddrive bearings spin fairly well.
This is interesting.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FsmallD.jpg&hash=916ac8352c313d491c70c9b3e93a729824f84a45)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FSmini1.jpg&hash=fbb4f4a4017df45d8d6925497465806bd38dcd19)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FSmini2.jpg&hash=dbfb1280613037d649266ba44e16b363cc876173)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FSmini3.jpg&hash=f8ccb8ce81326cbc94954cd3ce0941b99bc6aa47)
Might have to order more as they are only ?3.25 for 15 of them.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 09, 2008, 09:37:25 AM
Got my 1/4 * 1/4 * 1/4 cubes today. So marked them up and mounted in Rotor.
Wind down times are probably double now with all that weight at the outside. The rest of us are probably nearly as anxious as you are to get the rest of the magnets get in!!!
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 09, 2008, 09:37:25 AM
Got my 1/4 * 1/4 * 1/4 cubes today. So marked them up and mounted in Rotor.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fcuberotor1.jpg&hash=ed8b840db0523a146eed500b33d387ada65f05b5)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fcuberotor2.jpg&hash=806001929cddc2a1cec8a31fc318283fb18e9fbf)
Now just waiting for the Stator Magnets.
Cheers
Sean.
Looks Great Sean :D
Gradually coming together. man my order must be being shipped by Camel LOL
Looking forward to see your unit running a couple K
Thanks for sharing
Bill :)
Well you guys dont know me from Adam, but I have been here watching for a looong time... I am extremely interested in this particular project, I have submitted the plans as kindly provided by Jason to my local machine shop friend... I have asked him to supply me a quote for 10 of the units... if there is any interest please let me know... I will post the cost each hopefully by the end of today. I am not sure how expensive it will be but will gladly send them at my cost plus shipping. Thanks
UZ
Quote from: vipond50 on January 09, 2008, 07:46:12 AM
Hello Group
The time has come to seek a specification on the Stator bearings
In my Rep I will be hopefully using a bearing of the following specification.
Basic Spec.
ID - 0.25", OD - 0.5", Thk - .125 or Metric equivalent, *Free spin*
Material - 300(316) series Stainless
Application - Bearing going into a magnetic application, so needs to of the Non magnetic type, Operational speed in the order of 4K rpm
Have RFI 's out to various vendors and hope to here from them soon.
Note: I would prefer to have a flange type, but may have to settle for the standard shell.
Was interested in the bearing choices the other replicators are planning on incorporating because i feel this is an critical aspect of the device operation.
This is the reason for this Inquiry and Posting ;D
Bill
For the Stator magnets, I believe that Al did not use nonmagnetic bearings. The fact that the bearings are magnetic may play a critical role in the motor's operation. We do not yet completely understand what components are necessary for the effect to work so I would suggest that you use the same type of bearings that Al used just to see the effect, and then replace them with non-magnetic ones later.
God Bless,
Jason O
Hi Jason
I would if i new the spec. Do U have this if formation?
Bearing Number _________ ?
Thanks
Bill
I don't know the exact part number. He did mention the dimensions of the stator bearings though (which are noted in the blueprint drawings) and noted that he got most of them from Stewart-Warner. Beyond that, I don't know.
Jason
Excellent, Yes i new the dimensions, but not the manufacture. Will go chase it and see if i can come with more details. Actually planed on looking at both i.e. Chromium (magnetic) Non magnetic (SS).
But first have to get the device to operate. ;D
Regards
Bill
Quote from: unzapped on January 09, 2008, 11:09:26 AM
Well you guys dont know me from Adam, but I have been here watching for a looong time... I am extremely interested in this particular project, I have submitted the plans as kindly provided by Jason to my local machine shop friend... I have asked him to supply me a quote for 10 of the units... if there is any interest please let me know... I will post the cost each hopefully by the end of today. I am not sure how expensive it will be but will gladly send them at my cost plus shipping. Thanks
UZ
definitely interested, dependant on price of course, please keep us posted.
cheers
Quote from: unzapped on January 09, 2008, 11:09:26 AM
Well you guys dont know me from Adam, but I have been here watching for a looong time... I am extremely interested in this particular project, I have submitted the plans as kindly provided by Jason to my local machine shop friend... I have asked him to supply me a quote for 10 of the units... if there is any interest please let me know... I will post the cost each hopefully by the end of today. I am not sure how expensive it will be but will gladly send them at my cost plus shipping. Thanks
UZ
Hi Unzapped. I'm interested. But it might depend on where you're located -- it probably wouldn't make sense to ship half way around the world. (I'm in the U.S.)
Quote from: unzapped on January 09, 2008, 11:09:26 AM
Well you guys dont know me from Adam, but I have been here watching for a looong time... I am extremely interested in this particular project, I have submitted the plans as kindly provided by Jason to my local machine shop friend... I have asked him to supply me a quote for 10 of the units... if there is any interest please let me know... I will post the cost each hopefully by the end of today. I am not sure how expensive it will be but will gladly send them at my cost plus shipping. Thanks
UZ
Are you in the Uk?, anyway interested, depending on cost + shipping.
Has anyone sourced the other parts?, bearings, magnets for the Uk?, I have the link for the German magnet company, but would prefer somewhere in the Uk.
@uzapped,
Please, count me in but let's see the price first.
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 09, 2008, 11:39:53 AM
I don't know the exact part number. He did mention the dimensions of the stator bearings though (which are noted in the blueprint drawings) and noted that he got most of them from Stewart-Warner. Beyond that, I don't know.
Hi Jason and Bill
From the ocmotor pdf:-
Parts
-Perspex baseplate
-Delrin stator
-R834DIA magnets for the stator
-B448 magnets for the rotor (OC)/??? bar magnets polarized end-wise for the
rotor (Al)
-10 nylon 8-32 screws for stator magnets
-tiny ball-bearings for stator magnets--RC helicopter spare parts.
-Stator magnet/bearing plastic housings/holders
I did a google search on ball bearings for rc helicopters but could not find what material is used, without me calling the rc guys up i'm assuming here that they are magnetic.
Dom
Quote from: unzapped on January 09, 2008, 11:09:26 AM
Well you guys dont know me from Adam, but I have been here watching for a looong time... I am extremely interested in this particular project, I have submitted the plans as kindly provided by Jason to my local machine shop friend... I have asked him to supply me a quote for 10 of the units... if there is any interest please let me know... I will post the cost each hopefully by the end of today. I am not sure how expensive it will be but will gladly send them at my cost plus shipping. Thanks
UZ
I sent you a email but would like one and in Canada
Thks
Wayne
@Dom,
The rc helicopter guys said they have no idea what they are made of. I ordered them anyway--an apache type spare bearings.
Go here http://www.greathobbies.com/index.php and search bearings then you can see them all. also recommend just visit your local R/C shop and carry a magnet and shop.
Wayne
Quote from: Omnibus on January 09, 2008, 12:17:29 PM
@Dom,
The rc helicopter guys said they have no idea what they are made of. I ordered them anyway--an apache type spare bearings.
np, i'll check the hdd bearings with a magnet soon, i don't think they are magnetic
Quote from: Lakes
Has anyone sourced the other parts?, bearings, magnets for the Uk?, I have the link for the German magnet company, but would prefer somewhere in the Uk.
Hi Lakes
I have some 5mm * 20mm Neos on order from this UK company. Could not get 6mm.
http://www.first4magnets.com/bar--rod-magnets-1-c.asp
http://e-magnetsuk.com/magnet_products/neodymium_magnets/rod_magnets.aspx
I have done a second Rotor to accompany these.
For Bearings try http://www.technobots.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Bearings_377.html
Hope this helps
Cheers
Sean.
I'd also suggest the McMaster Carr website as a source for bearings (and almost anything else you could possibly ever want). http://www.mcmaster.com/
Quote from: unzapped on January 09, 2008, 11:09:26 AM
Well you guys dont know me from Adam, but I have been here watching for a looong time... I am extremely interested in this particular project, I have submitted the plans as kindly provided by Jason to my local machine shop friend... I have asked him to supply me a quote for 10 of the units... if there is any interest please let me know... I will post the cost each hopefully by the end of today. I am not sure how expensive it will be but will gladly send them at my cost plus shipping. Thanks
UZ
Hey UZ, please count me in also. I sent a PM.
I ordered magnets today.
You know I was just giving up on my own Magnet Motor project, ready to throw all that junk out, and this comes along pulling me back in!
Hi
Been Snooping and came across this spec.
These are magnetic, but got a hunch I'll be purchasing more bearings
later of the same dimensions, but different construction material.
Please see attached
Bill
any one thought about takeing the bearings out of an old hard drive or PC CPU or PSU fan ? or are they to small ?
Got started on my own proof of concept , magnets are 6mm by 12mm on a rotor i had lying around. I will cut another att the correct diameter , but without cnc that takes time. The magents are a friction fit into the slots that were cut out using a 2 flute milling bit in a vertical pilar drill. The plastic moved by hand ( oh Dear !) anyway it gets me going..lol
Quote from: Craigy on January 09, 2008, 02:48:42 PM
Got started on my own proof of concept , magnets are 6mm by 12mm on a rotor i had lying around. I will cut another att the correct diameter , but without cnc that takes time. The magents are a friction fit into the slots that were cut out using a 2 flute milling bit in a vertical pilar drill. The plastic moved by hand ( oh Dear !) anyway it gets me going..lol
Nice one Craigy
Was wondering when you were going to join us TUT
And do not give us that excuse of Xmas/New Year visitors etc etc LOL ;D ;D
I am very impressed by how well thought out the design is, especially from a materials and adjustability standpoint. Good job! :)
Played with a few ideas for the stator magnet mounts because I want them to be movable.
This seems to be the best design I can think of:
I went for a 6mm Rod lathed down to 3mm with a lip to space it slightly off the top of the bearing.
Press Fitted the 6mm end into a bit of 16mm Polycarbonate Rod. Will use a little bit of glue too seal it.
Tapped a 3mm thread on the end.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FSsax1.jpg&hash=2b8ea40ba273e914cd4ab6d258bd8d704f3486cd)
Mounted the 6mm OD and 3mm ID Flange bearings either side of the holder.
Press fitted the Brass rod inside the bearings by doing the nut up tight and then removing it.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FSsax2.jpg&hash=3887a374aa07e91230f3cddbb18e62f067789812)
The block is held in place and can be slid back and forth.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FSsax3.jpg&hash=6cb4cc05dd6c3c6996741eb616ae84db64ef2c93)
I should now be able to lathe out the 16mm Rod to press fit the 12.7mm Stator Magnets.
Cheers
Sean.
Forgot to add the video :)
Shows how loose they are using one of the small Magnets.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSStatorBearing.wmv
@CLaNZeR.. Nice work sir! I was wondering how you would make the magnets movable on the "X" & "Y" axis.
Quote from: starcruiser on January 09, 2008, 03:43:52 PM
@CLaNZeR.. Nice work sir! I was wondering how you would make the magnets movable on the "X" & "Y" axis.
Thx Starcruiser
I am now wondering whether to press fit the Brass Axles directly into the Stator Magnets, rather than lathing the Poly Rod to seat them in.
Anybody have any reasons why I should not press fit the Stator magnets directly onto the brass axles?
Good stuff Sean,
I am thinking of mounting the spinning stators in the same way as the rotor , i.e on a shaft of say 30mm , supported in bearings top and bottom. You may have noticed that my shaft is threaded rod with the ends turned to fit bearings. I wondered about turning a shaft but that meant dieciding on a height. Since i belive the interactions between rotors and stators are not on exactly the same plane ,perhaps 5 or 10 degrees off. The bolted rotor makes it posible to lower or raise it in relation to the stators. Not sure if that will be useful of not , will have to wait for the other magnets to arrive.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 09, 2008, 04:10:24 PM
Quote from: starcruiser on January 09, 2008, 03:43:52 PM
@CLaNZeR.. Nice work sir! I was wondering how you would make the magnets movable on the "X" & "Y" axis.
Thx Starcruiser
I am now wondering whether to press fit the Brass Axles directly into the Stator Magnets, rather than lathing the Poly Rod to seat them in.
Anybody have any reasons why I should not press fit the Stator magnets directly onto the brass axles?
Hi CLaNZeR,
The NdFeB magnet material is pretty brittle once the magnets are sintered. So you may run the risk of them shattering (while press fitting the shafts or while they are in motion later). As for the brass itself, I don't think that would harm it magnetically.
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: Craigy on January 09, 2008, 04:20:27 PM
I am thinking of mounting the spinning stators in the same way as the rotor , i.e on a shaft of say 30mm , supported in bearings top and bottom. You may have noticed that my shaft is threaded rod with the ends turned to fit bearings. I wondered about turning a shaft but that meant dieciding on a height. Since i belive the interactions between rotors and stators are not on exactly the same plane ,perhaps 5 or 10 degrees off. The bolted rotor makes it posible to lower or raise it in relation to the stators. Not sure if that will be useful of not , will have to wait for the other magnets to arrive.
Must admit mate I do like the idea of have the threaded brass rod as the main axle, as it allows you to alter the height of your Rotor to suit, instead of trying to get the Stators to match the height of the Rotor. With mine I have left the middle axle exactly 8mm and Press fitted it into the Rotor, I can adjsut but getting it to sit square would be an issue. Ummmm might have to get the Tap and Die set out again :)
With the design you have there mate I would make you Stators Static in height as you can adjust your Rotor to suit.
On your lathe you can get the Stator Axles exactly the same length with a V either end to take up the slack.
I did think about top and bottom mounting of the bearings for the Stator but was abit concered about running a brass rod through the whole length of the Stator magnet. Whether it will effect the effect as such, I do not know!
Quote from: Jdo300
The NdFeB magnet material is pretty brittle once the magnets are sintered. So you may run the risk of them shattering (while press fitting the shafts or while they are in motion later). As for the brass itself, I don't think that would harm it magnetically.
Thanks Jason
I do think we are safe with brass not interfering too much and I agree with the magnets destroying themselves very easly, especially when they slam together LOL
I have a pack of 10 coming so will see how tight I can get the tolerance of the Axle and not push it too much.
Cheers
Sean.
@CLaNZeR,
I wonder if brass would be the best. Eddy currents and such ... However, we have to know what @alsetalonkin used because these eddy currents may be needed for it to run. The stators are mounted on plastic axes, correct? I'm still not clear exactly how these pieces (both rotor and stators) are mounted in the original. There are various ways but sticking to what was successfully done is the best strategy, I think. (recall the failure of @xpenzif's motor because it occurred to no one to use 14-diagonal row cylinder with an 8-barrier stepper motor and that compromised the replications; that was @xpenzif's fault not to emphasize on that.)
See, @alsetalonkin denies that such details are of importance and that may turn out to be so ultimately. For now methinks we should be true to the original, don't you think?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 09, 2008, 04:32:43 PM
@CLaNZeR,
I wonder if brass would be the best. Eddy currents and such ... However, we have to know what @alsetalonkin used because these eddy currents may be needed for it to run. The stators are mounted on plastic axes, correct? I'm still not clear how exactly these pieces (both rotor and stators) are mounted in the original. There are various ways but sticking to what was successfully done is the best strategy, I think,
Originally AL used Nylon bolts from what I see and mounted the bearings on these.
I have used Nylon in the past and yep handy for making sure no Eddy currents are created, but on the down side are the bearings really sealed against that Nylon and hence slipping while turning. Atleast with brass we can nearly guarantee a snugg fit with no slipping and hence cutting our friction losses.
The only plus thing about the video we have seen is the accelaration from just over 1000rpm to over 4000rpm. For anyone that has played with Rigs and Rotors that is actually bloody incredible.
With a really loose Rig you would struggle to get it past 1000rpm with spinning by hand and no way would you ever get over 4000 rpm.
This is why this weird effect is so interesting and if it is real then I should think with that much gain a little bit of drag is not going too stop the effect happening.
Hi Sean,
When you ordered from K&J Magnets in the US, did you exceed the value of 18GBP (34USD) ?
According to the HM customs page if you exceed this then you have to pay duty and that will be to ParcelForce (handover from USPS) who are a real pain and levy a heavy charge for paying the duty on your behalf.
Also it slows down your order.
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_FAQs&propertyType=document&columns=1&id=HMCE_PROD_008566
I was thinking we could have split the postage but its the duty on a double order that would negate this idea.
If you can get K&J to mark the package as a "gift" then you can have 36GBP worth of goods before you pay duty.
I have just asked this question to see if its possible.
Hope to start building the same as you very shortly - time to play with the router table again.
Regards
Rob
OK, I guess you're right about snugness. As for the effect, I won't probably emphasize on the 5000rpm because of that argument with the decreasing moment of inertia causing the increase of the rpm to conserve the angular momentum. It'll be enough for me to se that after I've imparted by hand 400rpms to the rotor, the rotor kicks in, accelerates and spins at 1200rpm for 3 hours. Will try to have this done in a Faraday cage to kill forever the silly suppositions that the effect may be due to tapping energy from the local cell phone antenna or the local radio station.
Quote from: MeggerMan on January 09, 2008, 04:45:54 PM
Hi Sean,
When you ordered from K&J Magnets in the US, did you exceed the value of 18GBP (34USD) ?
According to the HM customs page if you exceed this then you have to pay duty and that will be to ParcelForce (handover from USPS) who are a real pain and levy a heavy charge for paying the duty on your behalf.
Hi Rob
My order only came too $17.10 so should be okay.
I know what you are saying though, have had many a Duty slap of 20% (By the time the Courier puts their admin fee on) when I used to order alot of components from the USA.
It was only after I placed my order did I notice they also did 1/4 inch rod magnets in different lengths and wished I has ordered a few. Managed to get some 5mm ones in UK though.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 09, 2008, 04:49:16 PM
OK, I guess you're right about snugness. As for the effect, I won't probably emphasize on the 5000rpm because of that argument with the decreasing moment of inertia causing the increase of the rpm to preserve the angular momentum. It'll be enough for me to se that after I've imparted by hand 400rpms to the rotor, the rotor kicks in, accelerates and spins at 1200rpm for 3 hours. Will try to have this done in a Faraday cage to kill forever the silly suppositions that the effect may be due to tapping energy from the local cell phone antenna or the local radio station.
I would be even happier if it was picking up some sort of RF signal and creating that effect I must admit!. Any schoolboy Pyshics class will show how you can tap nearly a volt from think air, but as soon as you try to pull current it ain't gonna drive alot and must admit these claims of charging mobile phones is interesting but stretching it a bit.
If the RF signals or any other stray signals can create an effect on magnets like we have seen in AL's video, then I will be buying a house next to a mobile phone mast hehe ;D ;D
We recently stroke a deal with such company to build their antenna on our property and pay us a monthly rent for that. So, you say, had we found a proper device we could also steal energy from that. But that's stealing (forgive the frank language) while I think what we're working on is producing energy from nothing. Anyway, just a little friendly chit-chat now while waiting for the magnets. My friend already started the lathing an milling, the magnets and the bearings will arrive soon and it'll be seen shortly what we're facing.
I`ve sent an email to the e-magnets website with the specs from the K&J website to see if can provide both the correct rotor and stator magnets thats needed.
I let you know when I get a reply.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 09, 2008, 05:02:22 PM
We recently stroke a deal with such company to build their antenna on our property and pay us a monthly rent for that. So, you say, had we found a proper device we could also steal energy from that. But that's stealing (forgive the frank language) while I think what we're working on is producing energy from nothing. Anyway, just a little friendly chit-chat now while waiting for the magnets. My friend already started the lathing an milling, the magnets and the bearings will arrive soon and it'll be seen shortly what we're facing.
Apparently far back when they first started transmitting TV signals, people found a way of tapping power off it, but the way that the TV stations found out was that the signal was not reaching the whole area that it was meant too reach, this was because the buggers were tapping it for power and draining the signal before it got that far hehe ;D
So you cannot really call this FREE ENERGY as it is being created from another source anyway.
It is illegal to do this BTW and I would not advise to have a go :)
Take a motor and get it to increase the speed of a Rotor from 1000rpm to 4000 rpm, it will take current to start that motor, it will take current to get it too that 4000rpm speed. That requires energy, but if AL's Rig has found a away of doing it without anything but the magnets then we Defo got something interesting here!
Hey guys,
Al posted this just today and thought it might help.
"Oh, and the rotor is HDPE, the base is acrylic (perspex or plexiglas) and the stator bearing/magnet holders, and the rotor shaft adapter, are of Delrin.
The stators are held to the base in my unit with austenitic SS socket-head cap screws, #4-40, and a tiny washer for clearance (under the bearing).
(ETA I found plastic screws were too flexible for this purpose.)"
Cheers,
Bruce
@btentzer,
Any idea where to order these form or Home Depot will have tons of them?
@CLaNZeR,
Didn't know about the tv companies. Interesting. Now we'll put it in a Faraday cage to prove to the authorities what we already know anyway, that is, that the effect isn't due to tapping into the energy pool of an antenna and therefore it isn't illegal. Nevertheless, I won't be amazed if the government pronounces this particular way of energy production (production of energy from nothing) as illegal if it becomes abundant and people start detaching themselves from the utility companies. You watch.
Everyone still waiting for magnets? Maybe they're out of stock after selling so many for that secret military Black Project?
i bought the magnets 30 seconds after watching the video , and saw the video as it was posted LOL , nutters arn?t we. I take Al doesn?t work for kj does he ..?
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 09, 2008, 05:15:55 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 09, 2008, 05:02:22 PM
We recently stroke a deal with such company to build their antenna on our property and pay us a monthly rent for that. So, you say, had we found a proper device we could also steal energy from that. But that's stealing (forgive the frank language) while I think what we're working on is producing energy from nothing. Anyway, just a little friendly chit-chat now while waiting for the magnets. My friend already started the lathing an milling, the magnets and the bearings will arrive soon and it'll be seen shortly what we're facing.
Apparently far back when they first started transmitting TV signals, people found a way of tapping power off it, but the way that the TV stations found out was that the signal was not reaching the whole area that it was meant too reach, this was because the buggers were tapping it for power and draining the signal before it got that far hehe ;D
So you cannot really call this FREE ENERGY as it is being created from another source anyway.
It is illegal to do this BTW and I would not advise to have a go :)
Take a motor and get it to increase the speed of a Rotor from 1000rpm to 4000 rpm, it will take current to start that motor, it will take current to get it too that 4000rpm speed. That requires energy, but if AL's Rig has found a away of doing it without anything but the magnets then we Defo got something interesting here!
hmmm... so the number of radios tuned to a station diminishes the signal? Doesn't sound right to me...
I remember a story of someone lighting their shed back in nazi germany with the power from one of the most powerful transmitters of the time, (Gobels and all that), i thing they were like 10 km away from a megawatt signal. The Chap strung a long wire antenna up between some trees and conected it to earth via a light bulb.
Any way , from what i remember , he ended up shot for it...
Radio recievers do not take energy out , in fact they are more liable to re-radiate the signal recieved.
I got my K&J magnetics today. Ordered Monday. Standard shipping. No express. Nice magnets. Got 2 two sizes of ring magnets.. The 1/2x3/16x1/4 (R834DIA) and the 3/4x1/4x3/4 (RC4CDIA). Got a couple of different 1/4 rod ones as well. It is nice they throw in a sample bag of magnets except they stuck to the other magnets and the bag ripped when i tried to remove. They might prove useful. . Now if I only had a rig to mount it all. Lets see.. Got a $10.00 poly cutting board from WallyWorld. Standard cheap material to used for prototypes. Easy to machine. That should should be big enough for the rotor and base. Got a rod of 6061-t6 aluminum. Got some Pleasure Tool roller skate bearings that should go up to high rpm... Now to convince the machinist that I need to use the shop ;) hummm... Maybe show him the video of the motor. That might work. I'll see if I can get started building tonight... Later...
Hey Guys,
I spoke with the owner of A & W Bearings and Supply Co.
1-936-564-4810
Ask for Mike Butler
He knows all about the magnet motor and has all the drawings.
Bearings for the Stator Magnets:
Part number = R3
Size is 1/2" OD
3/16" ID
1/8" Thickness
Price is $2.40 each, Package of 10
= $24.40
Steel Bearing
RPM rated:
With Grease 41,000 RPM's
With Oil 48,000 RPM's ;D
No Seal (Less friction)
Bearing for Rotor Stator
1/2" OD
1/4" ID
1/8" Thickness (times 2. One on top and one on bottom.)
No Flange
$1.50 each per package of 10 =
$10.50
Same type and rating as above.
For flanged, he is pricing tomorrow. Shipping is added and is subject to where you live, and how you want it shipped, etc.
Mike is excited about this project.
Cheers,
Bruce
Here's my attempt so far, just started it today, should have it done by today, im hoping anyway...lol
bearings ripped out of HDD, one on nylon disk was forced in by using drill press, thx for the tip who mentioned this in this thread.
The 4 smaller bearings you see there on that brass screw were actually taken from the one housing, if you force the shaft through, you will get at least two bearings from the one.
Oh the reason theres those large squares cut out, is because this was from another project i was doing, for bedini rotor.
I used drill press to do all the work here and small file.
Have been watching this thread with great interest. Just wishing all you replicators (nothing to do with Stargate) all the best success. I'd have a go and indeed had some ideas of my own but currently suffering from FIAS due to lack of funds, tools and materials :-[
What about the dampers? From my reading the original configuration would not work without them...
<quote>
...the unit runs faster without the magnokinetic Judson dampers. Typical stator speeds are 8000 rpm, rotor 2000. But the unit is quite unstable at those speeds, maybe due to the cheap bearings I used for the stators. But that's unknown, it could be that the bearing chatter actually contributes to the effect by some chaotic dynamical interaction. Don't ask me with what!
Anyway the unit will run up to high speed but only stays for a short time before the stator "drops out" and the rotor freewheels to a stop. I figured that a little eddy-current damping at high speeds (and proportionally less at low speeds, so the damping at startup speeds is essentially zero.) would do the trick.
There was an adjustment process that took a couple hours to find the sweet spot and the orientation, and it seemed so close to an already drilled and tapped set of holes in the base, that I just used the existing holes, even though the positioning wasn't totally optimum. It seems to do what I intended. I never anticipated the need for these dampers when I was laying out the unit.
</quote>
i will worry about the dampers when i have the magnets, any way , without the dampers it still sped up to unbelievable revs, so i will be looking for that before i install them..
What's FIAS?
LOL... finger in a$$ syndrome :-)
Craigy...could you clarify your comment? ....what sped up to incredible revs? Thanks. ???
If anyone has a higher quality video of this, could they please pass it along? Also if there are any other videos you want put up i can do this as well. I can increase the quality on youtube. how? I use a hex editor on the video (i lie about the runtime to youtube).
Example of hex edited video
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bD_nSgY08TY
-Mikeytown2
Quote from: mikeytown2 on January 09, 2008, 09:08:00 PM
If anyone has a higher quality video of this, could they please pass it along? Also if there are any other videos you want put up i can do this as well. I can increase the quality on youtube. how? I use a hex editor on the video (i lie about the runtime to youtube).
Example of hex edited video
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bD_nSgY08TY
-Mikeytown2
Alsetalokin only made one video then removed it after a couple of days because of the hassle it caused, all the other videos were taken from that one.
Quote from: cre8unitty on January 09, 2008, 08:27:39 PM
Craigy...could you clarify your comment? ....what sped up to incredible revs? Thanks. ???
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg69360.html#msg69360 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg69360.html#msg69360)
The quote was made by the builder alsetalokin.
Well, I'm all ready for testing tomorrow. Everything is ready just to drop in the magnets and test away. I've been building test machines for the Butch lafonte Group for the last few years. If this works I'll build two more, one for Butch and one for another guy in our group. We'll do many tests, so you will hear about it.
Hey Dusty,
Way to go. You going to be the first one will all parts installed, first to test the replication? We'll be anxiously watching.
Do me a favor and drop me a line directly when you post your results and video, so I can feature it.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor#Replications (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor#Replications)
Sterling {at} pureenergysystems.com
Dusty:
Nice work on your motor, really looks good :)
This is what I am doing tonight. Base is Jason's and rotor not yet. Loaded the stator at first peg but was to close, so went out 20mm and now to far, so going to try 10mm from Jason's peg marks. Just waiting for real parts but need to play. all parts form HDD, and computer drives for now.
Wayne
Nice work Dusty
Dusty,
Way to go.. That is looking like a winner.. :o Now if it will only work like one... ;)
Looks like I will not get some shop time till Saturday :'( and mine will not even come close to looking as good as yours or Sean's. Not much I can do about that as development $$ is tight so Poly cutting board is cheaper than nice clear lexan. It is sad to have the magnets but not the setup and I'm sure you guys are equally sad to have the setup and not the magnets. At least it looks like Dusty may have the first go at it with the proper magnets tomorrow.. Best of luck.. Looking forward to the results..
TomG
@mikeytown2,
The true story is this. @alsetalonkin posted only one video, the one we now know, and left it for a very limited time, on the order of 40-50min and then removed it. He says that he posted it only because I've pissed him off. Therefore, had I not pissed him off we wouldn't have known of this video. Can there be anything more ridiculous than this? In addition, someone is adamantly accusing him of fraud and has already posted two videos on youtube to that effect, cursing and frothing at the mouth, but @alsetalonkin seems to like it and says he kinda agrees with him. That's bizarre, to say the least. Anyway, my setup is also coming along. The magnets and the rc helicopter bearings will arrive tomorrow, I hope, and the parts will be ready any moment and, hopefully, I'll also be ready to report results soon.
lol look at this guys
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uJy21fXhZMQ
In the event you skilled replicators don't get the same result as alsetalokin (i.e., acceleration), one thing to consider may be rotor weight, which will affect torque. In the Steorn forum, "korkscrew" posted this today, in response to a comment by alsetalokin:
alsetalokin: "@k: ... so it sort of rocks back and forth in speed until both units are fully synched. Am I making myself clear here."
[korkscrew:] Crystal clear. Expected even. It happens with any phase locked system. It also suggests some kind of resonance which would be why the system would prefer a narow range of speeds and fall apart quickly as it moves away from that range.
That's why I think the relationship between the stator mass and the force of the magnets is critical. I expect most of the replications to fail due to not getting this relationship right. I'm thinking you got very close by accident.
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=25#Item_38
--------------------------------------------
I do wish you all the greatest success.
Oak
Quotelol look at this guys
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uJy21fXhZMQ
I would not even give this "dork" the time of day! Look up "fool" in the dictionary and you'll see this guy's picture.
::)
Dan
Wayne (magpower), beautiful job with your rig. I'm curious, however, how the rotor magnets are attached. If your rig does start to accelerate like alsetalokin's, might you have flying bullets?
(I work in the area of labor safety, so I worry about things like that.)
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 09, 2008, 05:15:55 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 09, 2008, 05:02:22 PM
We recently stroke a deal with such company to build their antenna on our property and pay us a monthly rent for that. So, you say, had we found a proper device we could also steal energy from that. But that's stealing (forgive the frank language) while I think what we're working on is producing energy from nothing. Anyway, just a little friendly chit-chat now while waiting for the magnets. My friend already started the lathing an milling, the magnets and the bearings will arrive soon and it'll be seen shortly what we're facing.
Apparently far back when they first started transmitting TV signals, people found a way of tapping power off it, but the way that the TV stations found out was that the signal was not reaching the whole area that it was meant too reach, this was because the buggers were tapping it for power and draining the signal before it got that far hehe ;D
So you cannot really call this FREE ENERGY as it is being created from another source anyway.
It is illegal to do this BTW and I would not advise to have a go :)
Take a motor and get it to increase the speed of a Rotor from 1000rpm to 4000 rpm, it will take current to start that motor, it will take current to get it too that 4000rpm speed. That requires energy, but if AL's Rig has found a away of doing it without anything but the magnets then we Defo got something interesting here!
Hello im new here in this forum ,this is my first message on this forum :)
I think the external energy came from the transformer of the floresent lamp. You can hear that in video humming..., even in the start of the video,
Hi pinoyz. I don't have the expertise to know whether that theory is plausible. I do know that alsetalokin is interested in ruling out all possible artificial causes of the acceleration. Have you tried to post the idea in one of the Steorn forum threads, where he is active? Or if you can't post there, would you like for me to post it there?
Oak
ETA: I will note that alsetalokin did say he got the device running in two different locations -- where he lives, and in the lab where he works.
Quote from: oak on January 10, 2008, 12:40:52 AM
Hi pinoyz. I don't have the expertise to know whether that theory is plausible. I do know that alsetalokin is interested in ruling out all possible artificial causes of the acceleration. Have you tried to post the idea in one of the Steorn forum threads, where he is active? Or if you can't post there, would you like for me to post it there?
Oak
ETA: I will note that alsetalokin did say he got the device running in two different locations -- where he lives, and in the lab where he works.
I also read Steorn forum threads too many discusion there, so read only the coment of alsetalokin. I read one of his post about his lamp, but now icant find that coz too many post. so is he say run the device in his home and lab, did he mention what lamp he using? in that 2 location..
But anyway, if it is running using external energy or run by itself is stil great invention, a compact of this can power handheld device, dont you think.......
Hope replicator's succeed....... :)
Quote from: Dansway on January 09, 2008, 11:51:22 PM
Quotelol look at this guys
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uJy21fXhZMQ
I would not even give this "dork" the time of day! Look up "fool" in the dictionary and you'll see this guy's picture.
::)
Dan
Yeah I'm weary now of people posting and retrieving the post right after, I for one wouldn't do it, because it damn upsets people, and it's very mean and dishonest, but their time will come one day, if not in this life, definitely in the next.
Not all the people here are glueless, they do experiments and like to see if indeed there are anomalies.
here's my setup almost finished, not quite like the video, but I couldn't get it to run like his, so good luck to the goodmen out there.
Love
Dom
Quote from: Dusty on January 09, 2008, 10:14:22 PM
Well, I'm all ready for testing tomorrow.
Hi Dusty!
Great work! The rig looks like it would stop incoming artillery while generating power.
I just noticed that your stators were setup according to the first CAD drawings floating around. Here's a top-down pic of Al's rotor, and you can see there are only two open spots between the dampers and the flanking stators.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fsl2.jpg&hash=e8918dadbf7c1ee1023e66b88406c6b32159c144) (apologies to Sean for hotlinking image)
Quote from: Dusty on January 09, 2008, 10:14:22 PM
Well, I'm all ready for testing tomorrow.
Hi Dusty!
Great work! The rig looks like it would stop incoming artillery while generating power.
I just noticed that your stators were setup according to the first CAD drawings floating around. Here's a top-down pic of Al's rotor, and you can see there are only two open spots between the dampers and the flanking stators.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fsl2.jpg&hash=e8918dadbf7c1ee1023e66b88406c6b32159c144)
(apologies to Clanzerfor hotlinking image)
Quote from: pinoyz on January 10, 2008, 01:05:42 AM
Quote from: oak on January 10, 2008, 12:40:52 AM
Hi pinoyz. I don't have the expertise to know whether that theory is plausible. I do know that alsetalokin is interested in ruling out all possible artificial causes of the acceleration. Have you tried to post the idea in one of the Steorn forum threads, where he is active? Or if you can't post there, would you like for me to post it there?
Oak
ETA: I will note that alsetalokin did say he got the device running in two different locations -- where he lives, and in the lab where he works.
I also read Steorn forum threads too many discusion there, so read only the coment of alsetalokin. I read one of his post about his lamp, but now icant find that coz too many post. so is he say run the device in his home and lab, did he mention what lamp he using? in that 2 location..
But anyway, if it is running using external energy or run by itself is stil great invention, a compact of this can power handheld device, dont you think.......
Hope replicator's succeed....... :)
Pinoyz, I just posted the following there:
Hi Alsetalokin. On the overunity.com forum, a suggestion was made that perhaps the florescent lighting?s transformer ? which can be heard in the video ? is a source of external energy feeding the device.
I don't have the expertise to know whether that theory is plausible, but am curious what you think of it.
You did say, if I recall correctly, that you were able to get the device running both at your home and in the lab where you work. Do both locations have similar lighting?
Thanks very much.
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60132&page=14#Item_3
-----------------------
It seems pretty quiet in the forum right now, and it's 2:30 a.m. for Alsetalokin (he's somewhere in eastern Canada), so he may not answer for several hours.
Quote from: btentzer on January 09, 2008, 07:32:00 PM
Hey Guys,
I spoke with the owner of A & W Bearings and Supply Co.
1-936-564-4810
Ask for Mike Butler
He knows all about the magnet motor and has all the drawings.
Bearings for the Stator Magnets:
Part number = R3
Size is 1/2" OD
3/16" ID
1/8" Thickness
Price is $2.40 each, Package of 10
= $24.40
Steel Bearing
RPM rated:
With Grease 41,000 RPM's
With Oil 48,000 RPM's ;D
No Seal (Less friction)
Bearing for Rotor Stator
1/2" OD
1/4" ID
1/8" Thickness (times 2. One on top and one on bottom.)
No Flange
$1.50 each per package of 10 =
$10.50
Same type and rating as above.
For flanged, he is pricing tomorrow. Shipping is added and is subject to where you live, and how you want it shipped, etc.
Mike is excited about this project.
Cheers,
Bruce
Thanks Bruce
I did not have a chance to do any calling today, but will give Mike a call tomorrow and discuss the bearing spec. Will more than likely source the package and also source SS as well.
Thx
Bill
@oak,
This theory is very unlikely. Nevertheless, you may check that I proposed to @alsetalonkin to place his device in a Faraday cage, just before he released the video. That'll take care forever of this problem mentioned occasionally here and there. As a matter of fact @alsetalonkin promised to present a new, longer video the week following the week he released his first video. To no avail, though. I should also mention that your point regarding the rotor mass that seconds @korkscrew's point that "the relationship between the stator mass and the force of the magnets is critical" is quite important, I think. Therefore, several of us here have emphasized the importance of exact replication first, before making any modifications. It may turn out that we would need to know some more subtle details of the working model. Was the motor presented in the video the only working motor, I didn't catch that? I know @alsetalonking dismisses the suggestion for an exact replication but was there another one working? It should be noted that for the first time someone claiming such working motor is hanging around, answering questions regarding his creation. That was the reason I decided to leave the Steorn forum to not get accused that he disappeared because of me. So far there were numerous instances whereby constructors of such devices disappeared without a trace. Take Torbay or @xpenzif and even one Mike who claimed successful reproduction of Bedini motor who hung around for a while getting everybody enthused (tens of people and even probably more began replicating his device) only to disappear suddenly without a trace. Hope we're facing a different situation this time and many of those who decided to give it a tryl will achieve to see what @alsetalonkin demonstrated in his video.
@pinoyz,
Make no mistake. If this or a similar device runs on external energy then it isn't a great invention at all and at most will only be a marginal curiosity. However, if it does what we see in the video and we can reproduce it, then it most likely runs powered by energy produced from within and deserves most serious attention and studies for a definitive confirmation for science to accept it.
Omni, looking at the photos Al took, it appears he may have had one or two other rigs he had started on (not identical to the one that is being discussed), but from everything he's said it appears there is only one working model. (Whatever "working" means -- and like you I hope it means OU.)
@oak,
That's my impression too. My guess is this has been some kind of a serendipitous coincidence of circumstances plus the error he inadvertently made to turn one of the stators in the "wrong" direction. If the effect (OU) he presents in the video is confirmed this "error" leading to success will remain as one more curiosity in the history of technology. Hope replications run easier this time than what we know usually happens. I will never forget how Torbay couldn't reproduce and couldn't demonstrate his own motor to work when he came to New York. Prior to that I had the assurances of a high Argentinean official whose office has been funding the project that he has seen it work for a long time (months). Recall the most recent replication that went awry--that of @xpenzif. These are very tricky contraptions whereby it's very hard to avoid minute flaws in timing or weights and proportions crucial for them to run as OU. Most of the time the constructors aren't open enough (and even not at all) and thus hurt their cause big time--think of Steorn, Perendev, Lego etc. and the latest, @xpenzif, who didn't even bother to instruct the people trying to replicate it that the cylinder must have 14 diagonal rows and must be placed on an 8-barrier stepper motor.
I would sugest using a micro lubricant, and it would reduce friction considerable even over oil. Also some micro lubricants are designed to move towards heat, so will last and maintain the reduced friction longer.
every little bit helps.
@SameCoin,
Any suggestion of a brand and where to get it?
Quote from: mikestocks2006 on January 08, 2008, 05:31:06 PM
Hi CLaNZeR,
The dampers are on the 2 of the 13 predrilled holes flanking the stator.
Also see alsetalokin's post
"...And one more time: 6061-T6 extruded aluminum bar stock, machined to the exact dimensions of the stator magnets (except I really did use a 3/16 hole, the magnets are a bit bigger here), spaced and oriented by trial and error, and in my unit, the pre-drilled holes for the stator magnets seemed close enough to the sweet positions so I just used them."
I hope this helps
Confirmed by Al last night at the Steorn forum:
There was an adjustment process that took a couple hours to find the sweet spot and the orientation, and it seemed so close to an already drilled and tapped set of holes in the base, that I just used the existing holes, even though the positioning wasn't totally optimum. It seems to do what I intended. I never anticipated the need for these dampers when I was laying out the unitSorry about my distracting posting on page 14 of this thread on this damper topic.
Quote from: oak on January 10, 2008, 02:32:29 AM
Quote from: pinoyz on January 10, 2008, 01:05:42 AM
Quote from: oak on January 10, 2008, 12:40:52 AM
Hi pinoyz. I don't have the expertise to know whether that theory is plausible. I do know that alsetalokin is interested in ruling out all possible artificial causes of the acceleration. Have you tried to post the idea in one of the Steorn forum threads, where he is active? Or if you can't post there, would you like for me to post it there?
Oak
ETA: I will note that alsetalokin did say he got the device running in two different locations -- where he lives, and in the lab where he works.
I also read Steorn forum threads too many discusion there, so read only the coment of alsetalokin. I read one of his post about his lamp, but now icant find that coz too many post. so is he say run the device in his home and lab, did he mention what lamp he using? in that 2 location..
But anyway, if it is running using external energy or run by itself is stil great invention, a compact of this can power handheld device, dont you think.......
Hope replicator's succeed....... :)
Pinoyz, I just posted the following there:
Hi Alsetalokin. On the overunity.com forum, a suggestion was made that perhaps the florescent lighting?s transformer ? which can be heard in the video ? is a source of external energy feeding the device.
I don't have the expertise to know whether that theory is plausible, but am curious what you think of it.
You did say, if I recall correctly, that you were able to get the device running both at your home and in the lab where you work. Do both locations have similar lighting?
Thanks very much.
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60132&page=14#Item_3
-----------------------
It seems pretty quiet in the forum right now, and it's 2:30 a.m. for Alsetalokin (he's somewhere in eastern Canada), so he may not answer for several hours.
Thank you for posting it.. with correct grammar :) it just not good in english ;D
@Replicator's
If you tried it and it don't work then you can try the above theory...just addition for you to test....
@Omnibus
I hope it will work w/out external energy..since its unique to other PM coz he using aluminum, and much more interesting than other PM motor
Quote from: oak on January 10, 2008, 12:40:52 AM
ETA: I will note that alsetalokin did say he got the device running in two different locations -- where he lives, and in the lab where he works.
Ouch.. I'm thinking the chances of sucessful replication just dropped like a rock. Does this mean (1). out of the 100 locations he tried to get it to work that it would only work in two exact locations or (2). he has tried it in only at two locations and it worked both times... big difference... if it is (1) then the odds of getting a working replications just started getting off the scale. It can also mean the device has to be oriented a certain way like the counter-clockwise magnet has to facing north.
I suppose it could be syncing up with earth's magnetic field in some fashion and if that field varies then the motor becomes unsynced and slows down to a stop. Restarting then re-sync's it up to the new earth's field variant. Guess we will all know in a few days if this is going to be easy to replicate or not.
Relax. I think he only tried it at two locations.
A few are
Megapower penteraiting lube
x-1r
z-max
not sure which is best, and I think i am not recalling another.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 10, 2008, 02:56:41 AMThat was the reason I decided to leave the Steorn forum to not get accused that he disappeared because of me.
You decided to leave because you were banned for being an arrogant prick and couldn't post anymore. Perhaps nobody would bother posting that about you if you didn't lie about it or mention it at all. That little badge of honour at the top of your profile belies nothing (and is reasonably difficult to earn):
http://www.steorn.com/forum/account.php?u=13411 (http://www.steorn.com/forum/account.php?u=13411)
At steorn you plagued the threads; here I'm trying to read what genuine replicators are working on and here you plague the threads. I suspect you are waiting to pounce on the first successful replication so you can publish it everywhere and claim that your theories were right and you are vindicated and it couldn't have happened without you.
Good Luck Dusty!
I think the WhipMag designation is a little to esoteric.
If Dusty is successful, I respectfully petition to call it the Magnetic Flux Capacitor, or just the Flux Capacitor for short, in honor of AL's insistence that this isn't OU, but is just a novel form of something else, like energy storage.... "Back to the Future" comes to mind.
In addition, does anyone know if AL tried the following?
1.Attempt to spin the other stators antigearwise instead of stopping them?
2. Remove one or both of the stalled stators while the device is in sync?
3. Add other stators to the system? Does it only work with the three?
4. Instead of using the judsen dampers, increase the load on the rotor with weight or the RC prop?
And if the replicators are successful, as a woo woo piece of experimentation, I suggest adding to the rotor system high temperature superconductors. Spinning superconductors in a magnetic field are theorized to exhibit anti-gravity properties.
If anyone wants to edit and or repost this on Stoern, be my guest.
PE
some great looking replicas here well done ! The original video was interesting. However being the skeptic that I am I'm going to stand by and say I think this will never work.
firstly I think it is too simple (not to say simple ideas are often the best)
secondly I think the acceleration is too fast in the video to be natural process as suggested
(I think there was a small DC motor under the rotor).
Lastly It wouldn't be difficult for the original maker to give exact specifications considering it is so simple and he hasn't. I mean a damn kitchen scale and ruler would do the job.
spacing, weight, friction, magnetic strength, (which DC motor is used :P ) there are too many variables. The idea of energy coming from the light is a bit far fetched unless he built a wireless power receiver unit under the rotor.
sorry about the negativity but being a engineering researcher no matter how interested I am in this topic and do believe that we can learn more still.
This is one idea that unfortunately is a little to good to be true, sorry for the bad grammar and the rambling. I do wish you all the best of luck with the replications, even if it only proves this is a fraud. fingers crossed it isn't for all our sakes.
Quote from: xumed on January 10, 2008, 07:22:28 AM
some great looking replicas here well done ! The original video was interesting. However being the skeptic that I am I'm going to stand by and say I think this will never work.
firstly I think it is too simple (not to say simple ideas are often the best)
secondly I think the acceleration is too fast in the video to be natural process as suggested
(I think there was a small DC motor under the rotor).
Lastly It wouldn't be difficult for the original maker to give exact specifications considering it is so simple and he hasn't. I mean a damn kitchen scale and ruler would do the job.
spacing, weight, friction, magnetic strength, (which DC motor is used :P ) there are too many variables. The idea of energy coming from the light is a bit far fetched unless he built a wireless power receiver unit under the rotor.
sorry about the negativity but being a engineering researcher no matter how interested I am in this topic and do believe that we can learn more still.
This is one idea that unfortunately is a little to good to be true, sorry for the bad grammar and the rambling. I do wish you all the best of luck with the replications, even if it only proves this is a fraud. fingers crossed it isn't for all our sakes.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocplans.html
I was reading through alsetalonkin's posts last night on the Steorn forum, and I thought I was picking up hints from him that static electricity may have something(maybe everything?) to do with the operation of the unit.
Al seems to be quite an expert on building electro-static machines, and mentioned having a set of videos on youtube demonstrating some of his machines (including some corona motors), which he says he took down after the uproar started with this video. He mentioned that it would not be far fetched at all to have a simple flick of the wrist or two generate a very large charge that would keep a motor spinning for a very long time.
Just something to think about.
[edit dup post]
Hi Al,
Is this in effect a protracted smot ramp? basically climbing until it reaches equilibrium? That would explain the acceleration and many other attributes displayed. If you will... imagine a ball moving up a smot ramp with a harness pulling a cog that is turning a gear that rotates the wheel. I may be wrong in so many ways but it just came to mind and I thought I might ask.
Cheers,
Dean
Here is the most complete collection of photos that I have seen:
http://www.ospmm.com/whipmag/
The captions were provided by Al.
@pablo escobar
Weird, I just want to post these questions No. 1,2 dan 3 to Steorn forum while I'm waiting for approval of my signup... ???
Quote from: pablo escobar on January 10, 2008, 06:22:47 AM
Good Luck Dusty!
I think the WhipMag designation is a little to esoteric.
If Dusty is successful, I respectfully petition to call it the Magnetic Flux Capacitor, or just the Flux Capacitor for short, in honor of AL's insistence that this isn't OU, but is just a novel form of something else, like energy storage.... "Back to the Future" comes to mind.
In addition, does anyone know if AL tried the following?
1.Attempt to spin the other stators antigearwise instead of stopping them?
2. Remove one or both of the stalled stators while the device is in sync?
3. Add other stators to the system? Does it only work with the three?
4. Instead of using the judsen dampers, increase the load on the rotor with weight or the RC prop?
And if the replicators are successful, as a woo woo piece of experimentation, I suggest adding to the rotor system high temperature superconductors. Spinning superconductors in a magnetic field are theorized to exhibit anti-gravity properties.
If anyone wants to edit and or repost this on Stoern, be my guest.
PE
If it does work (and I hope it does as I have allready ordered magnets myself) would it not be possible to test if it can pproduce work by place a set of coils over the top of the device.
Are the pdf plans that some on here has allready produced (Sorry I forget your handle) are they to scale ie able to be printed and glued to some plexiglass so that someone with only access to basic tools like a table saw and a drill press could reproduce it??
If so when I make mine I will produce complete step by step construction and assembly instruction and post them on make.com.
Magnet arive on friday and work begins on the construction saturday.
Quote from: txghia58 on January 10, 2008, 09:00:43 AM
If it does work (and I hope it does as I have allready ordered magnets myself) would it not be possible to test if it can pproduce work by place a set of coils over the top of the device.
It is quite likely that coils will affect the magnetic fields involved, this is why I suggested in another post replacing the dampers with a coil and a load attached, this would give both damping effect and enable load measurement.
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 10, 2008, 08:15:49 AM
Hi Al,
Is this in effect a protracted smot ramp? basically climbing until it reaches equilibrium? That would explain the acceleration and many other attributes displayed. If you will... imagine a ball moving up a smot ramp with a harness pulling a cog that is turning a gear that rotates the wheel. I may be wrong in so many ways but it just came to mind and I thought I might ask.
Cheers,
Dean
to me, (I've no idea what a smot is) it appears to be a difference in angular velocity, momentum, inertia, etc, with respects to the differences between the smaller mass of the main rotor's magnetic field versus the larger field mass of the smaller magnet-all of that tied to the AC values and their interaction with one another.
I also suspect a slow ramp up to equilibrium. Then it halts.
Then start it again, if the magnets have survived.
I know that what sterling published on his website, that I sent him - seems to contradict the above, but it does not. The two are the same, but with this component mentioned here-left out.
This very consideration was and is one of the main reasons to design and utilize a 'dyno pit'.
Dyno pits are for testing Dyno motors..for runaway acceleration. Which..when the field considerations of the motor are laid out for maximum efficiency, exactly this situation in the video can happen. And up to and over 100k rpm..as the motor explodes. Violently.
In the case of the given video here, the frictive losses and overall design create a 'slow ramp' situation up to a limit imposed by said losses.
Jut my two cents, only part may be true.
The vortextral balancing act of what an atomic structure is, ie, Oscillating 2-D planar field interactions of 'vortex in-vortex out'..to create the 3-D universe of the given resultant vectors and all the components of this 'world'.....this balanced dual vortex, in equilibrium, requires brute force and/or resonance to break it (gyroscopic equilibrium), but localized attempts at bleeding energy off the 2-d field interaction balancing act, may not be all that fruitful, unless this vortex consideration is understood and taken into account. The vortexes in balance are fed from outside their localized areas, as they exist due to Oscillating 2-D planar field interaction. Which is why it is difficult to get them off balance and why the energy levels observed are so high (how much is released, or how much required to break) when they are cracked into being off balance.
If one fully analyzes all known phenomena, of any kind -real or suspected- they all fit the Oscillating 2-D planar field model. Up to and including all aspects of multi-dimensionality and all observed psychic phenomena. Do not ignore these two little paragraphs written here. :)
@ebswift,
Don?t plague the thread with your lies. I was the one to leave as seen here: http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60135&page=1#Item_4 .Obviously, it couldn?t have been possible to post that if I were banned. Also, read carefully who attacked who and who was really calling names. Follow the link @oak and I posted in that Steorn thread. What nerve.
You plague the thread also with stupid suppositions such as this: ?[that I will] claim that [my] theories were right and [I am] vindicated and it couldn't have happened without [me].? While I will always claim that I have already definitively shown through a rigorous argument that CoE can be violated through discontinuous production of excess energy (energy out of nothing) it is really ugly and impudent to suggest that I will claim that constructing a device producing excess energy continuously couldn?t have happened without me. Restrain yourself from such presumptuous statements. Only a fool can suggest what you?ve written.
I would not have posted this if I were not provoked by the above ominous lies and innuendo.
@xume,
To be skeptical when seeing such a demo is one thing but to suggest that hidden small DC motor is the cause for what?s observed is suugesting outright fraud. The best, I think, is to approach this unassuming and do what most of us are trying to do here?replicate the device and see for ourselves whether or not we?ll observe the acceleration demonstrated in the video..
More people trying to disuade us from building a potential operating device. Seems to be a trend when we start to get close to something.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 10, 2008, 03:26:12 AM
@oak,
That's my impression too. My guess is this has been some kind of a serendipitous coincidence of circumstances plus the error he inadvertently made to turn one of the stators in the "wrong" direction. If the effect (OU) he presents in the video is confirmed this "error" leading to success will remain as one more curiosity in the history of technology. Hope replications run easier this time than what we know usually happens. I will never forget how Torbay couldn't reproduce and couldn't demonstrate his own motor to work when he came to New York. Prior to that I had the assurances of a high Argentinean official whose office has been funding the project that he has seen it work for a long time (months). Recall the most recent replication that went awry--that of @xpenzif. These are very tricky contraptions whereby it's very hard to avoid minute flaws in timing or weights and proportions crucial for them to run as OU. Most of the time the constructors aren't open enough (and even not at all) and thus hurt their cause big time--think of Steorn, Perendev, Lego etc. and the latest, @xpenzif, who didn't even bother to instruct the people trying to replicate it that the cylinder must have 14 diagonal rows and must be placed on an 8-barrier stepper motor.
@ Omnibus
Not to change the topic here but have a question about xpenzif motor. I am confused by what you said here and could if possible draw out something. I did spent allot of time on this and even made a flat track and could not find how this was possible. The flat track did work at some sort but only with helper magnets, this stepper motor thing, was it used to offset the timing on upper rotor.
Back on topic with mine test last night and did not run as is. One note is the mass or weight of rotor is important for the start up. So I recommend not to use light weight rotor. I will re cut mine today I hope. I think Dusty has the best chance right now. More later
Wayne
@magpower,
I'm still very much interested in @xpenzif motor but I'm afraid extensive discussion on that would distract us from the current effort. Nevertheless, let me ask you, did you try it with an 8-barrier stepper motor and 14 diagonal rows on the cylinder? It appears that the fact that for each distance between two barriers of the motor there are 1.75 distances between the maximums of the cylinder is of importance. I really wish this can be modeled through finite element method to get a clearer understanding of the correct geometries. I don't know whether code for such simulation exists and one has to sit down and write it himself. Hope we'll talk more about @xpenzif's device a bit later.
As for @alsetalonkin's device it was mentioned more than once that exact weight of the rotor, magnet strength, exact geometries may turn to be crucial factors, as is usual in such replications, so we have to try to be as close to the original as possible if the replication is to be successful.
And if Electro-static forces are coming into play, even the choice of delrin/nylon, will be important.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 10, 2008, 10:34:43 AM
@magpower,
I'm still very much interested in @xpenzif motor but I'm afraid extensive discussion on that would distract us from the current effort. Nevertheless, let me ask you, did you try it with an 8-barrier stepper motor and 14 diagonal rows on the cylinder? It appears that the fact that for each distance between two barriers of the motor there are 1.75 distances between the maximums of the cylinder is of importance. I really wish this can be modeled through finite element method to get a clearer understanding of the correct geometries. I don't know whether code for such simulation exists and one has to sit down and write it himself. Hope we'll talk more about @xpenzif's device a bit later.
As for @alsetalonkin's device it was mentioned more than once that exact weight of the rotor, magnet strength, exact geometries may turn to be crucial factors, as is usual in such replications, so we have to try to be as close to the original as possible if the replication is to be successful.
@ Omnibus
From memory I think I used 14 diag rows on main cylinder, but no stepper motor, just a free wheel hub. I guess I don't know what is a 8- barrier stepper motor, never heard of this before, but we should not talk on this board topic and can send me a message or talk later, might not matter if this OC motor works out.
Thks
Wayne
i am modeling this assembly in cad. What I am a little confused about is how he fastens everything down. Especially the rotating magnets on the outside. I was thinking a turned down shaft and a snap ring on top to keep it from slipping off. What is the shaft made of? Brass or SS? Also, what is that red disk on top of the rotor? Does it have any significance? There are some details here that haven't been figured out.
SeanB
the red disk is a plastic type pulley, he called it a 'Friction testing pulley' poss to simulate a load on the spindle once connected to something.
Another Update from me :)
Two pictures below showing the Dampners that I lathed down to 12.7mm * 6.4 depth.
The second pictures show the positions of all 3 of the Stator Magnets now. Will need to replace the Polycarbonate dummy's for the real; stator magnets when they arrive.
I will adjust the height of the Dampners and the Rotor to suit the Stator magnets when ready to go!
Have started milling out second Rotor to fit the 5mm Rod Magnets I have coming, but also thx to Craigy I now have some 6mm Rod Magnets on there way :). So plenty to play with hopefully.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fdamp1.jpg&hash=ae9e7ac65843c8568d0472c8d7b7c3acf2a1382c)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fdamp2.jpg&hash=8cdee0beabb897ce2f17ff6026ce44c5be36ac7d)
Cheers
Sean.
Ok, I'm going to post it again, virtually all the information needed is here http://www.ospmm.com/whipmag/ (http://www.ospmm.com/whipmag/)
@Clanzer
Your work is fantastic, I envy you, I wish I had your resources, I look forward to your results.
Quote from: RunningBare on January 10, 2008, 11:52:31 AM
@Clanzer
Your work is fantastic, I envy you, I wish I had your resources, I look forward to your results.
Thx RunningBare.
Well a few years ago I had a choice, spend all me heard earned money on Booze and holidays, or start kitting out me little workshop LOL
I am glad I went for the Latter!!!
Must admit not had a holiday for a few years though hehe
Cheers
Sean.
@CLaNZeR,
You may have said it already but I've missed it, did you try measuring the rpm when spinning it by hand and what's the wind down time with and without the magnets?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 10, 2008, 11:57:24 AM
@CLaNZeR,
You may have said it already but I've missed it, did you try measuring the rpm when spinning it by hand and what's the wind down time with and without the magnets?
Hi Omnibus
No not yet. I will do all that when I am happy that the height adjustments are all in place and I have everything ready to go.
Then I can do a spreadsheet showing the Dummy Runs and loaded runs with speed against time.
Hey guys,
I don't have a lot of time to post this since I'm on my lunch break and my salad is getting cold... hehe. All the effort here is really good. This setup reminds me of Jon Depew's work with his magnetic gears and equilibrius grid:
http://www.coralcastlecode.com/id28.html
Many months ago Jon posted that he had stumbled upon a great discovery (about the same time he blocked my AIM name because I suppose I was sending him too many messages :( .) Anyhow, I wonder if he discovered something similar to this motor? I think Jon describes the spinning gears as a resonant expanding magnetic field. Perhaps the counter spinning magnet causes a resonant collapsing field which imbalances the wheel and causes it to lock into motion? My salad is now completely cold!
Keep up the good work,
Charlie
Hi Everyone,
I phoned e-magnets in the UK today and if we can get a big enough order together then they can get some diametrically magnetised disk magnets (not rings) made up. So what they have on their website they can magnetise diametrically, but only as a one off.
http://e-magnetsuk.com/magnet_products
They have 10,12,15,19,20,22,25,40mm dia and thickness of various sizes from 0.4mm to 10mm
The lead time is a couple of weeks though.
One interesting comment the sales person mentioned was that Neodymium Iron Boron (NdFeB) magnets are extremly difficult to demagnetise using another magnet. Other magnets like alnico need to have a keeper to retain their magnetic strength.
Only heat and physically knocking a Neodymium will effect it.
N42 are ok up 80C.
Also they have some high temp N33 suitable for 200C, BUT and this is a big one, these are even harder to demagnetise in a demagnetising unit.
He said they had two very large cyclinder magnets in a vertical tube and they are apposing each other field wise, 8 inches apart and have been that way for 3 years. He said if the field strength was going to reduce, the gap would have reduced but it has not.
So therefore, I very much doubt that AL's setup will degrade the magnets even after running for months on end.
I remember reading that to demagnetise a Neodymium you need to overpower the existing field in the magnet with a stronger field in the apposing direction and with the rotor and stator gap being about 5mm or more, then this is not likely to happen.
I have had an email back from K&J magnetics in the US and they have the following in stock that I enquired about:
R834DIA
D22
D48
D4C
They have to state the exact value on the customs label and they cannot mark it as a gift, so try and keep your value below the 18GBP limit unless you are made of money.
Regards
Rob
Thx Rob for the Info.
A follow upto that is a Interesting post from Andy (NEO) of at Steorn today.
***********
I wouldn't expect any depletion in the current set up. The materials stability in terms of shape, coercivity and airgap will make them virtually impossible to lose any power. Only elevated temperatures above 120 deg c and high, stray, electro-magnetic fields in the order or 2 Tesla reversed through the sample will relax the domains. The action of the stator's alternating polarity on the rotor will have no effect in terms of losses.
Anisotropic Sintered diametrically magnetised NdFeB is relatively new in terms of particle alignment during the pressing cycle in that phase. Isotropic Bonded NdFeB materials (10 mgo) are more common for applications requiring this type of orientation. This may be relevent in terms of power to weight (torque) ratio of 35 + mgo materials. Anyway, well done so far, I'm sure the effect will help with continued study in this area.
There will be Bonded Neodymium version / experiment happening in the next couple of days.
***********
I also remember reading somewhere on this forum, about a forum member who has kept two magnets clamped togther in replusion for almost a year(?) now, and with his measurements there has been no difference in the strength of the magnets. Don't have the reference handy but that is what I remember.
Omnibus, keep playing out your fantasy role playing game. Funny the thread you pointed to was a whole thread devoted to banning you. None of the people you pointed the finger at were banned. If you don't say things like 'I decided to leave' then nobody would bother bringing this up.
Quote from: ebswift on January 10, 2008, 04:11:43 PM
Omnibus, keep playing out your fantasy role playing game. Funny the thread you pointed to was a whole thread devoted to banning you. None of the people you pointed the finger at were banned. If you don't say things like 'I decided to leave' then nobody would bother bringing this up.
Not to play referee here but in the interest of keeping the clutter in this thread to a minimum, would those who want to pick a bone keep it to PMs? I would rather read posts about people's build updates than this stuff.
Thank you,
Jason O
I second that..
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 10, 2008, 04:15:28 PM
Not to play referee here but in the interest of keeping the clutter in this thread to a minimum, would those who want to pick a bone keep it to PMs? I would rather read posts about people's build updates than this stuff.
Thank you,
Jason O
@ebswift,
QuoteOmnibus, keep playing out your fantasy role playing game. Funny the thread you pointed to was a whole thread devoted to banning you. None of the people you pointed the finger at were banned. If you don't say things like 'I decided to leave' then nobody would bother bringing this up.
In the name of the current efforts, not to distract attention, I?ll let this go and won?t characterize you the way you deserve. Unlike your insinuations, anyone who?s curious may see that I withdrew and to post my withdrawal I couldn?t have been banned: http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60135&page=1#Item_4 . Also, those who are curious may see for themselves who attacked who by following the links I gave, as well as the link @oak gave.
Stop cluttering the thread with your nonsense.
Quote from: hydrocontrol on January 10, 2008, 04:17:18 PM
I second that..
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 10, 2008, 04:15:28 PM
Not to play referee here but in the interest of keeping the clutter in this thread to a minimum, would those who want to pick a bone keep it to PMs? I would rather read posts about people's build updates than this stuff.
Thank you,
Jason O
I third that.
An idea, for you guys, is to open up a new thread, and call it debate. This way any time people want to get into over something, they can take it there. It works well on our TPU board.
Thank all of you, in advance for your courteous handling of this matter.
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: Charlie_V on January 10, 2008, 12:31:29 PM
Hey guys,
I don't have a lot of time to post this since I'm on my lunch break and my salad is getting cold... hehe. All the effort here is really good. This setup reminds me of Jon Depew's work with his magnetic gears and equilibrius grid:
http://www.coralcastlecode.com/id28.html
Many months ago Jon posted that he had stumbled upon a great discovery (about the same time he blocked my AIM name because I suppose I was sending him too many messages :( .) Anyhow, I wonder if he discovered something similar to this motor? I think Jon describes the spinning gears as a resonant expanding magnetic field. Perhaps the counter spinning magnet causes a resonant collapsing field which imbalances the wheel and causes it to lock into motion? My salad is now completely cold!
Keep up the good work,
Charlie
Ideas such as this one have long been known to float around. Observe the almost cult following Searl's motor has, a motor based on just the same principle as this one. The big difference in this case is that the constructor didn't go away, isn't hiding behind NDA's and hangs around to instruct how to replicate it. As seen from what he writes, that's because he doesn't believe for one second it's OU. His opinion won't matter, however, should this motor be shown ny independent parties to behave the way it behaves in the video. Replicating it by independent parties is the real achievement in these matters, as I've always said and insisted that those secretive dreamers are really hurting themselves. They are double losers--neither they will become rich nor the credit for creating such device will go to them.
@hydrocontrol,
That is a non-issue and shouldn't be debated at all. Let's all stick to the replicating efforts and try to ensure that many people will have working (OU) replicas of this device.
No problem Jason. We had the same problem in the other forums with the omnibot. I'll let the omnibot go. I don't know who's picking bones though, I was picking a particular post that was an outright deceptive lie. Or maybe this forum is the omnibot's place?
@ebswift,
Stop cluttering the thread with your nonsense.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 10, 2008, 04:45:29 PM
@ebswift,
Stop cluttering the thread with your nonsense.
@Omnibot,
I wasn't talking to you.
I have a question which I'm sure has already been answered. In the youtube video, when he stops the two magnets and the motor speeds up, I've heard it eventually slows to a stop. However, what happens if he justs leaves all 3 stators spinning and does nothing, does the device slow down still or does it keep running an unknown amount of time?
Thanks,
Charlie
Quote from: Charlie_V on January 10, 2008, 04:49:53 PM
I have a question which I'm sure has already been answered. In the youtube video, when he stops the two magnets and the motor speeds up, I've heard it eventually slows to a stop. However, what happens if he justs leaves all 3 stators spinning and does nothing, does the device slow down still or does it keep running an unknown amount of time?
Thanks,
Charlie
From what I've gathered from what Al's been saying, it runs for an unknown amount of time, just as it does with the two stators stopped. It just runs slower. Further tests may show other differences, but time will tell.
Quote from: Charlie_V on January 10, 2008, 04:49:53 PM
I have a question which I'm sure has already been answered. In the youtube video, when he stops the two magnets and the motor speeds up, I've heard it eventually slows to a stop. However, what happens if he justs leaves all 3 stators spinning and does nothing, does the device slow down still or does it keep running an unknown amount of time?
Thanks,
Charlie
That's the big question here. I have remained with the impression that it has carried on at that higher speed for three hours without decelerating and then it has stopped for unknown reason. This is one important thing to be verified after replicating the effect from the video. I wouldn't even stop the two stators, I'd have it, as you mention, with all three stators rotating and will try to monitor the rpm as a function of time till it stops abruptly after the 3 hour run (that's the time @alsetalonkin says it has run for unattended, without external energy supply). I would be impressed if it continues to spin for three hours without external supply, let alone if that spinning would be at constant rate. Any of this would point to OU. Also, in addition to the Faraday cage which I will place the device, to kill all these ridiculous proposals for tapping into extraneous EM fields, I'll mount the rotor first to a DC motor and will run it at 300rpm (the rotation rate when spinning it by hand) and then at 1200rpm (the rotation rate due to the effect). The product of the current and voltage I'd measure in those two cases will give me an indication for the power generated from within, coming out of nothing.
Another easy to find source for rotor and/or stator bearings are those tiny bearings at the end of a router bit. They're good for up to 25,000 rpm and they sure can take a beating!
Had to replace some last year and they only cost about $2 each. Bought them at the local woodworking store.
I ordered my bearings today. I chose the flanged ones for the center rotor. A tad more expensive but probably will be worth it. Add a few drops of oil and they are good to 48,000 rpm's. I was already speaking with the bearing guy about future upgrades, and once the unit is actually up and running, we hope to replace all of the bearings, first thing, with precision bearings. Rated rpm's about 100,000. It simply means less friction.
But we want to use the same type of everything to start with. Get it running first, before changing anything! ;)
Cheers,
Bruce
Can't agree mote. Get it running first. Just curious, how much are those precision bearings?
So it only runs for 3 hours when all three stators are spinning then it slows down (coming to a stop) for unknown reasons? Sorry just making sure I'm understanding this correctly.
If this is reproducible it sounds like an energy amplifier - it must take energy to make energy haha.
Thanks,
Charlie
Quote from: Charlie_V on January 10, 2008, 05:43:43 PM
So it only runs for 3 hours when all three stators are spinning then it slows down (coming to a stop) for unknown reasons? Sorry just making sure I'm understanding this correctly.
If this is reproducible it sounds like an energy amplifier - it must take energy to make energy haha.
Thanks,
Charlie
I don't know whether or not it decelerates and comes to a stop or it keeps spinning for 3 hours and then abruptly comes to a stop. Either way, more energy (energy out of nothing) is being produced than the energy put in, just as in SMOT.
@Omnibus
After the motor stop, do you tray to restart it ? Is it restarted ?
Quote from: Charlie_V on January 10, 2008, 05:43:43 PM
So it only runs for 3 hours when all three stators are spinning then it slows down (coming to a stop) for unknown reasons? Sorry just making sure I'm understanding this correctly.
If this is reproducible it sounds like an energy amplifier - it must take energy to make energy haha.
Thanks,
Charlie
It is not as mysterious as it seems. Al has seen the thing run over a period of three hours. He has started it, gone to sleep, woke up and it has stopped. He has mentioned that sometimes if a truck drives past and rattles the floorboards the thing loses sync. Probably given the fact that the assembly runs noisily means it isn't running smoothly, therefore if everything was assembled with precise tolerances it would run for longer. Because he is currently running various tests with the little time he has, he is utilising his time to get test results rather than going for duration tests.
Your best bet is to read it in his own words at the Steorn thread, then there's no risk of him being mis-quoted or second-guessed.
Don't know these details. @alsetalonkin is very frugal in explaining these issues. He also promised to show another, longer video with a better lighting but never did. We would have to find the answers to these questions ourselves. My magnets arrived already, still waiting for the bearings and the parts won't be ready till Saturday at the earliest. Can't wait.
Quote from: abassign on January 10, 2008, 05:51:38 PM
@Omnibus
After the motor stop, do you tray to restart it ? Is it restarted ?
Discontinuous!? Start/stop!? This is beginning to sound familiar, and it's freaking me out! :o
Quote from: g4macdad on January 10, 2008, 06:30:10 PM
Quote from: abassign on January 10, 2008, 05:51:38 PM
@Omnibus
After the motor stop, do you tray to restart it ? Is it restarted ?
Discontinuous!? Start/stop!? This is beginning to sound familiar, and it's freaking me out! :o
Why? Aside from SMOT what else can do that? If you think that's nothing I'll give you a $10 bill in exchange for a $20 bill you'll hand me. And I'd like to do it more than once. Deal?
Did a quick simulation on the stator magnet sitting on the stator bearing to see how it effected the field from the diametrically polarised magnet.
The magnet is N50, but I suspect Al's motor uses N42 or thereabouts.
As you can see the field does pull downwards somewhat.
It would be good to see a 3D view but Femm 4 does not support it.
I cannot remember if Al said the stator was below or above the rotor magnet, because what he may have said is that it worked best if the stator magnet was higher than the rotor and therefore the fields would have lined up.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2FStatorWithSteelBearing.jpg&hash=3ed2e6a8e0f2167c2dc162249330b8889c7557ef)
Regards
Rob
You may kindly ask @Jdo300 to do it in Maxwell3D. He has a lot of experience with that. Don't think it's necessary right at this moment, though. This will take valuable time from his replication efforts.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 10, 2008, 06:34:19 PM
Quote from: g4macdad on January 10, 2008, 06:30:10 PM
Quote from: abassign on January 10, 2008, 05:51:38 PM
@Omnibus
After the motor stop, do you tray to restart it ? Is it restarted ?
Discontinuous!? Start/stop!? This is beginning to sound familiar, and it's freaking me out! :o
Why? Aside from SMOT what else can do that? If you think that's nothing I'll give you a $10 bill in exchange for a $20 bill you'll hand me. And I'd like to do it more than once. Deal?
Erm, Omnibus, I like you, and I agree with you. If I thought this was nothing, I would not be freaking out.
Store up some of the energy from the 3 hr. run, to start the process over.
Would something like this be scalable?
If Al and OC never thought a free lunch was possible why would they waste their time? Sounds suspicious.
Quote from: g4macdad on January 10, 2008, 06:51:25 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 10, 2008, 06:34:19 PM
Quote from: g4macdad on January 10, 2008, 06:30:10 PM
Quote from: abassign on January 10, 2008, 05:51:38 PM
@Omnibus
After the motor stop, do you tray to restart it ? Is it restarted ?
Discontinuous!? Start/stop!? This is beginning to sound familiar, and it's freaking me out! :o
Why? Aside from SMOT what else can do that? If you think that's nothing I'll give you a $10 bill in exchange for a $20 bill you'll hand me. And I'd like to do it more than once. Deal?
Erm, Omnibus, I like you, and I agree with you. If I thought this was nothing I would not be freaking out.
Store up some of the energy from the 3 hr. run to start the process over.
Would something like this be scalable?
If Al and OC never thought a free lunch was possible why would they waste their time? Sounds suspicious.
Not so much @overconfident. He's one of those many putting forth ideas. What was done, however, is not what was proposed anyway but is a result of a fortuitous error which lead to success. What puzzles me is the behavior of @alsetalonkin. In his words he undertook this to prove @overconfident ,who was pushing too much his idea, isn't right. Everybody else on that forum was telling him that. And probably he isn't right because, as it turned out, the effect was due to a mistake having nothing to do with the original idea. And now that @alsetalonkin suddenly found this effect it got him scared to no end and he is going out of his way to prove it isn't what we see in the video, siding even with his obvious enemies alleging fraud and nut cases for that purpose. He made it quite clear that it's much more important to keep his job and not anger his boss than to be connected with anything science denies at this time. History teaches us that a true researcher must have a backbone. That's not easy and requires special qualities.
Omnibus said "@alsetalonkin suddenly found this effect it got him scared "
If this were true I would not blame him, I've been hanging around these boards and the boards that dispute the idea of free energy, trust me when I say "some" of you scare the crap out of me, zealots on both sides!
But I will agree as I've already said on the steorn forum that alsetalokin is under selling his discovery, but thats non of our business, the replicators hopefully will be able to at least validate the video, my own replication is held up presently because I've not found a method for mounting the stator yet, rotor is complete.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 10, 2008, 11:50:49 AM
Another Update from me :)
Two pictures below showing the Dampners that I lathed down to 12.7mm * 6.4 depth.
The second pictures show the positions of all 3 of the Stator Magnets now. Will need to replace the Polycarbonate dummy's for the real; stator magnets when they arrive.
I will adjust the height of the Dampners and the Rotor to suit the Stator magnets when ready to go!
Have started milling out second Rotor to fit the 5mm Rod Magnets I have coming, but also thx to Craigy I now have some 6mm Rod Magnets on there way :). So plenty to play with hopefully.
Cheers
Sean.
According to my experience; One solid magnet has different pole characteristic over the combining some segment magnet together.
From the Steorn forum this evening, for those building already...
"...But I do not recommend using polycarbonate (Lexan )for any part of the machine--it's in the wrong place on the triboelectric series, if one of my theories is correct.
Nor do I recommend acrylic plastic (Lucite, Plexiglas, Perspex?) for the rotor, if the base is acrylic. Different materials should probably be used. I used HDPE which at the opposite end of the plastic tribo series from acrylic."
It would be interesting if this turns out to be some kind of electro-static device.
Quote from: btentzer on January 10, 2008, 05:08:18 PM
I ordered my bearings today. I chose the flanged ones for the center rotor. A tad more expensive but probably will be worth it. Add a few drops of oil and they are good to 48,000 rpm's. I was already speaking with the bearing guy about future upgrades, and once the unit is actually up and running, we hope to replace all of the bearings, first thing, with precision bearings. Rated rpm's about 100,000. It simply means less friction.
But we want to use the same type of everything to start with. Get it running first, before changing anything! ;)
Cheers,
Bruce
Bruce
Thanks for putting that post relating to the R3 bearings. I called and spoke to Mike (Nice Gentleman) and ordered the bearings. At the time he had not acquired any info relating to the Flange bearings, so went with the un-flange.
Man i have never waited on parts for a project like this one, Karma ?
I will be ordering again from that company (Mike).
Anyway thanks again
Bill ;D
Quote from: RunningBare on January 10, 2008, 07:23:21 PM
Omnibus said "@alsetalonkin suddenly found this effect it got him scared "
If this were true I would not blame him, I've been hanging around these boards and the boards that dispute the idea of free energy, trust me when I say "some" of you scare the crap out of me, zealots on both sides!
But I will agree as I've already said on the steorn forum that alsetalokin is under selling his discovery, but thats non of our business, the replicators hopefully will be able to at least validate the video, my own replication is held up presently because I've not found a method for mounting the stator yet, rotor is complete.
What makes Omnibus a Zealot? This appears to be free energy. Anyone who would be upset to find out that it is "free energy", has real issues.
@g4macdad,
That's a wrong perception you have. I'm no zealot at all. My insistence that we're dealing with energy from nothing stems from a scientifically rigorous analysis I've already made and this keeps my interest in this field. What do you want me to do, have the undeniable proof that CoE can be violated and not consider it and behave as if it doesn't exist? Now, that would be the behavior of a real zealot. Just like @alsetalonkin--he found this effect, showed it to us and now can't stand himself that he ever did that, siding with his bitterest enemies, accusing him of fraud and cursing at him. That's really bizarre.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 10, 2008, 07:52:26 PM
@g4macdad,
That's a wrong perception you have. I'm no zealot at all. My insistence that we're dealing with energy from nothing stems from a scientifically rigorous analysis I've already made and this keeps my interest in this field. What do you want me to do, have the undeniable proof that CoE can be violated and not consider it and behave as if it doesn't exist? Now, that would be the behavior of a real zealot. Just like @alsetalonkin--he found this effect, showed it to us and now can't stand himself that he ever did that, siding with his bitterest enemies, accusing him of fraud and cursing at him. That's really bizarre.
Omnibus,
Read my post more carefully. I was saying that you are not a zealot or Pharisee. I have seen you get continuously attacked so the defensive attitude is forgivable.
@RunningBare,
I didn't catch how you mounted the rotor? Proper mounting of the stators as in the original is also still to be understood.I'm not too concerned with the dampers so far but who knows ...
@ken_nyus,
Suppose it works the same way in a Faraday cage. What kind of a trivial electrostatic device, yet turning, can it be?
Quote from: g4macdad on January 10, 2008, 07:45:01 PM
What makes Omnibus a Zealot? This appears to be free energy. Anyone who would be upset to find out that it is "free energy", has real issues.
Errr, I dont remember calling omnibus a zealot, obsessive maybe but not a zealot, anyway I've said too much off topic already, back to the OCAL.
@g4macdad,
Indeed. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Well, hope you can understand why ...
Quote from: vipond50 on January 10, 2008, 07:44:20 PM
Quote from: btentzer on January 10, 2008, 05:08:18 PM
I ordered my bearings today. I chose the flanged ones for the center rotor. A tad more expensive but probably will be worth it. Add a few drops of oil and they are good to 48,000 rpm's. I was already speaking with the bearing guy about future upgrades, and once the unit is actually up and running, we hope to replace all of the bearings, first thing, with precision bearings. Rated rpm's about 100,000. It simply means less friction.
But we want to use the same type of everything to start with. Get it running first, before changing anything! ;)
Cheers,
Bruce
Bruce
Thanks for putting that post relating to the R3 bearings. I called and spoke to Mike (Nice Gentleman) and ordered the bearings. At the time he had not acquired any info relating to the Flange bearings, so went with the un-flange.
Man i have never waited on parts for a project like this one, Karma ?
I will be ordering again from that company (Mike).
Anyway thanks again
Bill ;D
Your welcome Bill. The flanged bearings for the rotor stator only cost about an additional $1.00 each.
My thinking on this, is that it is of importance enough, for me to spend $17.00 USD for new, good bearings.
I also want to make sure that the base, rotor, and magnet stator holders are made out of the exact same material that Al used. Now, if Clanzer's motor works, and he has used, identical (or so it appears) material for base and rotor, then that will alleviate some static electricity theories. I just want to take no chance. If it does work by producing it's own static electricity, it makes no difference to me, because IT WORKS. LOL
I for one, wonder if he discovered the "Steorn Effect", or something solely new. It will be interesting to see. It will also be interesting to see the faces of folks looking at this thing spin without power. Especially at the University where I work. ;D ;D
@ Omnibus
I did not bother to price the precision bearings, but they will not be very expensive. The bearings are small. (For Now!! :D )
EDIT:I found this great post by Al, from yesterday. Lots of info and details.
"Every time I have actually seen it stop, it does so by the "dropping out" of the spinning stator. It seems to run at an almost constant rpm until that happens. Spontaneously? Due to some perturbation? They turn off the Jacuzzi upstairs? I don't know.
But I can say that the slow linear decay to zero rpm, isn't the way it seems to behave. Of course I do not have any data at all past about 3 1/2 hours, and I expect it to be able to run for about 1 day 15 hours, or 39 (say 40) hours, thanks to the math models that have been worked out, and based on my conjecture that there may be as much as 17000 Joules available for momentum change, per run.
As for the acceleration when I stop the 2 "idler" stators: I feel certain that this is due to the reduction in drag. It takes energy to rotate each part of the unit, clearly. When the stators are stopped, the energy that was expended in keeping them rotating is now available to the rotor, and it speeds up until again, the power output is equal to all drag and friction sources."
@btentzer
Yes I totally concur, for the small change involved for this project, why go with used Stuff? I also am repilcating as EXACTLY or as close to Al"s device as I possibly can. When and IF I get the device to motorize I will be headed off to the University Physics lab to run more tests. There I have the nessecary equipment to hopefully obtain the true nature of the operation of the device. But first things first :D
At this point i do have my ideas on how and why the device is operating, but I will not elaborate until i have data to back it up.
Did Mike have an Idea when he would have the info on the SS bearings?
Rambling
Thx
Bill
Quote from: g4macdad on January 10, 2008, 07:59:43 PM
Omnibus,
Read my post more carefully. I was saying that you are not a zealot or Pharisee. I have seen you get continuously attacked so the defensive attitude is forgivable.
Omnibus is not being attacked.
He just pretends to have a proof that he simply hasn?t. What he does have is a limited understanding of SMOT and a huge ego. But little science indeed. I?d guess his skills are somewhere around to those of a high-school teacher but not a brilliant one. I?d be curious to know about his real credentials?
Anyway, the story is long and this issue is off-topic here. But if you want to find more, just ask Omnibus politely to show you where is the CoE violation for SMOT ?proved beyond any doubt?. And you?ll see and understand for yourself.
Cheers everyone and sorry for deviating from the topic.
Tinu
Quote from: tinu on January 10, 2008, 08:47:24 PM
But if you want to find more, just ask Omnibus politely to show you where is the CoE violation for SMOT ?proved beyond any doubt?. And you?ll see and understand for yourself.
And please do it in the appropriate thread.
Quote from: tinu on January 10, 2008, 08:47:24 PM
Quote from: g4macdad on January 10, 2008, 07:59:43 PM
Omnibus,
Read my post more carefully. I was saying that you are not a zealot or Pharisee. I have seen you get continuously attacked so the defensive attitude is forgivable.
Omnibus is not being attacked.
He just pretends to have a proof that he simply hasn?t. What he does have is a limited understanding of SMOT and a huge ego. But little science indeed. I?d guess his skills are somewhere around to those of a high-school teacher but not a brilliant one. I?d be curious to know about his real credentials?
Anyway, the story is long and this issue is off-topic here. But if you want to find more, just ask Omnibus politely to show you where is the CoE violation for SMOT ?proved beyond any doubt?. And you?ll see and understand for yourself.
Cheers everyone and sorry for deviating from the topic.
Tinu
@tinu, cut it out. Al least learn some physics before going around spewing crap. Get out of this thread. People here are trying to replicate something and not put up with your incoherent ramblings.
@btentzer,
What is great about such ramblings:
QuoteOf course I do not have any data at all past about 3 1/2 hours, and I expect it to be able to run for about 1 day 15 hours, or 39 (say 40) hours, thanks to the math models that have been worked out, and based on my conjecture that there may be as much as 17000 Joules available for momentum change, per run.
Nothing. What momentum change? What 17000 Joules? What math models and conjecture? Didn?t he just say:
QuoteEvery time I have actually seen it stop, it does so by the "dropping out" of the spinning stator. It seems to run at an almost constant rpm until that happens
or
QuoteBut I can say that the slow linear decay to zero rpm, isn't the way it seems to behave.
This clearly shows that energy is being generated out of no source if what he says in the above two quotes is true.
This person should stick to the technical issues and try to convince us that what we see in the video is real rather than trying to shove down our throats his cowardice in the form of completely ridiculous ?models? and bogus ?conjectures?.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 10, 2008, 09:30:57 PM@tinu, cut it out. Al least learn some physics before going around spewing crap. Get out of this thread. People here are trying to replicate something and not put up with your incoherent ramblings.
Of all people to have here as the thread monitor.
@ Jason
Take a look at the bottom shot of this OC sim posted from Al's thread. Al was commenting on the bottom negative spike. Does that look to you what I think? Remember that post of yours along time ago, about the exact same looking negative spike?
Perhaps I am seeing things? ???
LOL
Let me know what you think. It is intriguing.
http://www.geocities.com/deasyart/steorn/OC_sim_one_stator_a.JPG
Cheers,
Bruce
@btentzer,
That's pretty interesting. This is exactly how I imagined @xpenzif's motor would work. Difficult to achieve proper timing, though with the latter motor to have every following station (rotor magnet in this case) in a proper position with respect to the stator, not only to overcome the back drag but also to add some extra energy compared to the previous station. @alsetalonkin has achieved it and I hope we'll achieve it too. It may be that the particular design @alsetalonkin has found out by chance makes this timing issue less of a problem and the device more practical too (more efficiently utilizing said possibility for extra energy at every new magnet).
Way to COOL ..OK i'm building hehehe , need a break from the Testanika machine anyway ;D
Hello fellow seekers,
I have followed these developments with detached interest but would like to point something out that might not be obvious and it is definitely incorrect in the drawings made by JDO300. Please see the attached images for reference to my writing below.
The letters A, B and C in the images are not equidistant from the center of the rotor, thus the radius as presented in the Drawings.pdf is incorrect. The radius varies and thus creates and ellipse instead of a circle.
I would like to comment on the ellipse now because I feel that the importance of the geometry as a factor is disregarded while in turn it is the most important part of existence and everything in the Universe. When I say geometry I mean non-euclidean hyperbolic geometry, the "organic", geometry of life.
In my humble opinion, in order for this device to work (by mimic-ing nature), or any device for that matter regardless of magnetic, electric, or other forces, it has to be based on vortex, spiraling, hyperbolic geometry. Furthermore, the motion *has* to be centripetal, imploding (as per Viktor Schauberger) and not centrifugal, exploding one.
In this case the rotor has to virtually spiral downwards, as if it was falling into the vortex created by the motion forward, and thus the equidistant circle arrangement of pegs holding the stator magnets and dampeners is not correct and will not yield desired results. If you exhibit the the attached images you can observe that I have outlined in RED the circle of the stator and marked A, B and C. The distances are not the same between the rotor and the A, B and C points, to me it definitely does not look like a play of shadow, foreshortening of the perspective or anything like that because it's a fairly clear photo.
I would also like to draw attention to point D which I have outlined as a reference point for orientation. The author of the device had failed to mark one side a virtual "north" and so we have to look at some mark (in this case the notch in the rubber leg edge) for reference because of what I said above regarding the geometry, that the orientation of stators and dampeners is elliptical and thus orientation of the entire assembly makes a difference when looking at the photo.
To make matters more complicated the author of the photos had rotated the assembly several times to make it easy for him to make measurements of stators and so when you are looking at each photo you have to know where's "virtual" north in the picture/assembly.
With all above in mind I think it might be useful to go back into author's video and re-trace these points while marking the virtual "north" orientation, for better understanding of the "falling down" into the vortex effect.
I apologize if this was obvious to some (or most people) in which case I beg your pardon for bringing this "non-sense" to your attention. I just felt it would've been (the most) important factor when replicating and troubleshooting operation of this device.
Thanks.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg185.imageshack.us%2Fimg185%2F3126%2Fpmm1af6.th.jpg&hash=f102146a42817b88c17aa832f7fff7bd3584feb4) (http://img185.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pmm1af6.jpg) (https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg142.imageshack.us%2Fimg142%2F8712%2Fpmm2nz0.th.jpg&hash=a7088b2c7aaa3c6111493073e155ae66cabae38c) (http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pmm2nz0.jpg) (https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg142.imageshack.us%2Fimg142%2F3960%2Fpmm3fl6.th.jpg&hash=de8b2b66d412049ee9f16f7fb55ad6ad931c1df2) (http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pmm3fl6.jpg)
QuoteThis clearly shows that energy is being generated out of no source if what he says in the above two quotes is true.
No source. Not true. We are all sitting on a Electric Dynamo called planet Earth. We spin to the east at over a 1000 mph while the molten core spins at a lesser speed. The massive magentic field generated protects us from a lot of harm while at the same time can easily be detected with a simple compass from anywhere on the planet. This magnet motor that is trying to be reproduced could just as easily be tapping and syncing with the Earth's field to run. The magnetic field of the Earth is clearly a viable source of coupling power for this motor to run.
@amigo,
The pictures you've shown don't seem to be from the same motor shown in the video or maybe they just show the motor more clearly and it appears different. The stators are fewer in the video, if nothing else.
@hydrocontrol,
And how does this coupling happen exactly?
@pinoyz, today I reposted on the Steorn forum your suggestion (page 23 above) that the florescent lighting transformer may be providing energy to the rotor:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=27#Item_32
Alsetalokin answered two posts below that, here:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=27#Item_34
It appears he does not think the light's transformer has a significant effect; it also appears he approves of what Harvey (the "rabbit") had to say about it, which is quoted in my post.
Quote from: oak on January 11, 2008, 12:52:18 AM
@pinoyz, today I reposted on the Steorn forum your suggestion (page 23 above) that the florescent lighting transformer may be providing energy to the rotor:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=27#Item_32
Alsetalokin answered two posts below that, here:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=27#Item_34
It appears he does not think the light's transformer has a significant effect; it also appears he approves of what Harvey (the "rabbit") had to say about it, which is quoted in my post.
Thanks for the answer..
All we need now its to wait for the replicator to finish.....goodluck all
I have been watching the steorn forum threads, and I am seriously surprised that there is not the slightest comment from Sean and Co. I would have thought they would be encouraging the efforts being made .. or maybe they don't like the competition ?
Cheers,
Dean
Actually, there was a comment :
"Yep I saw it, seems pretty cool. Go ahead and test the hell out of it, from the chat that I have seen it looks like the guys know what they are doing on that front."
Quote from: hydrocontrol on January 10, 2008, 11:43:22 PM
QuoteThis clearly shows that energy is being generated out of no source if what he says in the above two quotes is true.
No source. Not true. We are all sitting on a Electric Dynamo called planet Earth. We spin to the east at over a 1000 mph while the molten core spins at a lesser speed. The massive magentic field generated protects us from a lot of harm while at the same time can easily be detected with a simple compass from anywhere on the planet. This magnet motor that is trying to be reproduced could just as easily be tapping and syncing with the Earth's field to run. The magnetic field of the Earth is clearly a viable source of coupling power for this motor to run.
Yes. A polarized, oriented, gradient, with a dual-spin (vortex in-vortex out) vortex. It is not static.
More like a DC ground plane that conducts 'near' ground current. No voltage, per se, but the motional characteristic and/or flow is definitely there. For example, in a piece of electronics, you can have ground wires going to a 'star' type ground situation. You can measure them (as an aggregate group) and get a measurement that is impossible to separate from that of the ground measurement (voltage), but still be conducting huge amounts of current. Ie, all the current in the circuit.
In the same way, a given field with respects to the earth may be unmeasurable in some ways, but that does not mean it is absent.
Duplicate. Too much NSA and the like re-routing, one suspects. Makes the board a bit screwy. Happens quite often on this board. Go figure.
@Prophmaji,
where do you think they get all their project ideas from?
Well the 5mm * 20mm Rod magnets arrived.
So knocked up another Rotor with 5mm slots.
Well atleast there is another configuration to try ;D
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FS5mmrotor.jpg&hash=3172ed1e8b2f27b5ce65a941483908833e7b136b)
Cheers
Sean
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 11, 2008, 10:49:00 AM
Well the 5mm * 20mm Rod magnets arrived.
So knocked up another Rotor with 5mm slots.
Well atleast there is another configuration to try ;D
Sean, you could well do another nice experiment with 2 rotors. Place them on top of each other, having the same axis, then rotate one clockwise, the other counter clockwise and try to get them into sync. I assume this is a nice variant on the present duplication effort.
I cannot keep up your paste of hardware making to my big regret.
Hi Sean,
You are getting too good at making rotors. Cannot wait until you get your stator magnets!!!
What thickness of acrylic are you using for the rotor?
The reason I ask is that 20mm, even 15mm acrylic is relatively expensive, but 12mm is so much cheaper.
It looks like 10-12mm from the above photo.
Stator magnets: I did want to say this until I won the auction, but I managed to get some diametrically magnetised 12mm dia. x 6mm thick neodynium disk magnets from the UK, not rings, from ebay, hope to have them early next week.
I searched for:
Neodymium diam*
and found these with an alternative spelling:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Neodymium-Discs-Magnet-Diametrally-pack-10-12mmx6mm_W0QQitemZ310012745179QQihZ021QQcategoryZ80546QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Have you tried mounting a 12mm rod magnet (horizontal) on a bearing for the stator magnet and try this while you wait for your ring magnets?
Regards
Rob
Just posted this over at Steorn after reading AL's Reply Stating:
********
But I do not recommend using polycarbonate (Lexan )for any part of the machine--it's in the wrong place on the triboelectric series, if one of my theories is correct.
Nor do I recommend acrylic plastic (Lucite, Plexiglas, Perspex?) for the rotor, if the base is acrylic. Different materials should probably be used. I used HDPE which at the opposite end of the plastic tribo series from acrylic."
********
So Just found a supplier in UK of 20mm HDPE , so that is a result as I can have a go at making a Rotor to the original spec as well :)
They also do HDPE Rod which is cheap.
http://www.directplasticsonline.co.uk/home.php?cat=4060
Got to try a few different ways me thinks :)
Quote from: MeggerMan
What thickness of acrylic are you using for the rotor?
The reason I ask is that 20mm, even 15mm acrylic is relatively expensive, but 12mm is so much cheaper.
It looks like 10-12mm from the above photo.
Hi Rob
Using 8mm Polycarbonate this end, but to increase the Mass I was going to cut another blank one and join them together if needs be, hence why I used a long Axle Shaft.
But also have sourced some 20mm HDPE now, which is not too bad a price.
So will try a few combinations, especially now AL has a theory about the plastics used help create the effect.
Nice find on the magnets btw. I am hoping mine will come next week now from the states, but if I get too inpatient, I might try some of those :)
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: robbie47Sean, you could well do another nice experiment with 2 rotors. Place them on top of each other, having the same axis, then rotate one clockwise, the other counter clockwise and try to get them into sync. I assume this is a nice variant on the present duplication effort.
Hi Robbie
Will try that one another day, knowing my luck if I do it now I will scatt up the Rotors I got and have to start again :) Good idea though.
Cheers
Sean.
----- Original Message -----
From: Sterling D. Allan
To: Overconfident
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: I didn't ignore you
Hi OC,
Thanks for the apology.
I should mention also that Doug Furr, the Ph.D. Mechanical Engineer who built our 1/4-scale Perendev Magnet motor (with Brady's permission, but which we couldn't get to work) http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6189540769300973039, expects to finish today his replica of your magnet motor design built by Al. He's sticking to the design as illuminated by Jason O, except he's going 1.5-scale, and his stator magnet is proportionally a little larger. He's not using the Delran sleeve around the stator magnet either, so he'll be able to approach the perimeter more closely (in the process of characterizing the effect) after the initial replication is done.
He's put a lot of thought into things like the placement of bearings for greatest strength, to avoid wobble. All his parts: magnets and bearings, will be arriving today.
I stopped by his shop last night, and he showed me the clear plastic he will be cutting the rotor and base from, so one can see through it to see that there are no cheater devices attached anywhere. He got the $2,000 sheet of clear 1/2-inch plastic for just $250.
As I was looking at his drawings, he leaned back and pointed back to a carburetor sitting on the table behind him. He's been working on the gun engine, coming up with a way to retrofit engines with that technology, which results in dramatic improvement in mileage. He said: "Engines are so complicated. I've been thinking that we [also] need something more simple [to solve the energy crisis]."
After this initial open sourcing phase of showing people exactly how to build one of these things, I would encourage those who are able to work on improvements which they can then patent and take to market. Doug will likely be one who will do that. I anticipate that Doug will also help us in the initial phase of characterizing what is going on: testing such things as magnet size, distance, position, etc.
As I was leaving last night, he told me that it would be easy to scale this thing down and get it ready to mass produce for selling as a grown-up toy. He owns and operates his shop, which has all the necessary components for such mass production. He has several injection molding machines. He said it would take about two months to ramp up for such production.
Feel free to post this report at the Steorn forum. I'll post it to the OU forum.
I'll not pass your email to others. There is one person I previously disclosed it to: the guy who was interested in helping us build a clear and complete set of plans. I disclosed it with the caveat of "confidential."
Sterling
----- Original Message -----
From: "Overconfident"
To: "Sterling D. Allan" <sterlingda@pureenergysystems.com>
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 6:41 AM
Subject: Re: I didn't ignore you
Sterling,
If that is in fact the case, then I apologize. After
my submission (which I did on 2 occasions, sorry I
can't remember the dates), I thought I monitored your
site pretty closely. I missed that entry somehow. And
apparently nobody took notice anyway, or someone would
have pointed it out to me.
Regardless of that, neither Al nor I was really
prepared for what happened last week. When that video
was posted, there were about 300 messages in our
development thread, which was our primary means of
communication. It tripled in size over the weekend. We
were forced to start up several other threads to help
deal with all the traffic.
This has been an engineering effort, primarily between
2 virtual people, with some synergy from the Steorn
forum community. It has worked out well in the end.
There are many replications going now. I'm sure at
least some of them will be successful. There will be
plenty of people to interview. And I'm sure you will
have much to report.
My goals have almost been met. In fact they have most
likely already been met. I simply wanted the idea to
get some serious consideration from some qualified
people. That did not occur in response to the
information you posted on your site, but finally did
happen thanks to a fortuitous discussion in the Steorn
forum.
I'm not looking to gain anything from this other than
a potentially brighter future.
This has all been a dream. Now I want to move on and
try to pick up the pieces of my normal life. If you
have any concern for my well being, you will keep this
email address strictly confidential. There are only a
handful of people that know it, and I ask them to do
the same.
Everything I'm willing to share is out there in the
Steorn forum. In fact, probably more than I really
want to share.
I will be posting a copy of this apology in the Steorn
forum for all to see.
Regards,
OC
--- "Sterling D. Allan"
<sterlingda@pureenergysystems.com> wrote:
> Hi OC,
>
> Here is evidence that I didn't ignore you when you
> contacted me in October:
>
http://peswiki.com/index.php?title=Directory%3AMagnet_Motors&diff=48268&oldid=47721 (http://peswiki.com/index.php?title=Directory%3AMagnet_Motors&diff=48268&oldid=47721)
>
> The above url is a computer-generated comparison of
> The Sept. 28 version of the page and the Oct. 4
> version of the page.
>
> On that day, I posted a link to your work at
> PESWiki.com. It is listed on the Magnet Motors
> index page under "Theoretical"; and I posted it at
> the beginning of that section.
>
> Sterling
Hi Sean,
I was just gonna tell you about using HDPE to be close to the original. Mine is HDPE, as Jason has it as well in his drawings. However, now that you have it why don't you try it with the plexiglass as well.
Quote from: MeggerMan on January 11, 2008, 11:23:17 AM
Hi Sean,
You are getting too good at making rotors. Cannot wait until you get your stator magnets!!!
What thickness of acrylic are you using for the rotor?
The reason I ask is that 20mm, even 15mm acrylic is relatively expensive, but 12mm is so much cheaper.
It looks like 10-12mm from the above photo.
Stator magnets: I did want to say this until I won the auction, but I managed to get some diametrically magnetised 12mm dia. x 6mm thick neodynium disk magnets from the UK, not rings, from ebay, hope to have them early next week.
I searched for:
Neodymium diam*
and found these with an alternative spelling:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Neodymium-Discs-Magnet-Diametrally-pack-10-12mmx6mm_W0QQitemZ310012745179QQihZ021QQcategoryZ80546QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Have you tried mounting a 12mm rod magnet (horizontal) on a bearing for the stator magnet and try this while you wait for your ring magnets?
Regards
Rob
What thickness of acrylic are you using for the rotor?
The reason I ask is that 20mm, even 15mm acrylic is relatively expensive, but 12mm is so much cheaper.
It looks like 10-12mm from the above photo.
Stator magnets: I did want to say this until I won the auction, but I managed to get some diametrically magnetised 12mm dia. x 6mm thick neodynium disk magnets from the UK, not rings, from ebay, hope to have them early next week.
I searched for:
Neodymium diam*
"Have you tried mounting a 12mm rod magnet (horizontal) on a bearing for the stator magnet and try this while you wait for your ring magnets?"
I tried this and found that it locks up the all steel magnet, maybe a SS or non magnetic bearing would have better results. Although this was expected.
Bill
Quote from: vipond50 on January 11, 2008, 11:42:30 AM
Quote from: MeggerMan on January 11, 2008, 11:23:17 AM
Hi Sean,
You are getting too good at making rotors. Cannot wait until you get your stator magnets!!!
What thickness of acrylic are you using for the rotor?
The reason I ask is that 20mm, even 15mm acrylic is relatively expensive, but 12mm is so much cheaper.
It looks like 10-12mm from the above photo.
Stator magnets: I did want to say this until I won the auction, but I managed to get some diametrically magnetised 12mm dia. x 6mm thick neodynium disk magnets from the UK, not rings, from ebay, hope to have them early next week.
I searched for:
Neodymium diam*
and found these with an alternative spelling:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Neodymium-Discs-Magnet-Diametrally-pack-10-12mmx6mm_W0QQitemZ310012745179QQihZ021QQcategoryZ80546QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Have you tried mounting a 12mm rod magnet (horizontal) on a bearing for the stator magnet and try this while you wait for your ring magnets?
Regards
Rob
What thickness of acrylic are you using for the rotor?
The reason I ask is that 20mm, even 15mm acrylic is relatively expensive, but 12mm is so much cheaper.
It looks like 10-12mm from the above photo.
Stator magnets: I did want to say this until I won the auction, but I managed to get some diametrically magnetised 12mm dia. x 6mm thick neodynium disk magnets from the UK, not rings, from ebay, hope to have them early next week.
I searched for:
Neodymium diam*
"Have you tried mounting a 12mm rod magnet (horizontal) on a bearing for the stator magnet and try this while you wait for your ring magnets?"
I tried this and found that it locks up the all steel magnet, maybe a SS or non magnetic bearing would have better results. Although this was expected.
Bill
I meant bearing
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 11, 2008, 11:24:52 AM
Just posted this over at Steorn after reading AL's Reply Stating:
********
But I do not recommend using polycarbonate (Lexan )for any part of the machine--it's in the wrong place on the triboelectric series, if one of my theories is correct.
Nor do I recommend acrylic plastic (Lucite, Plexiglas, Perspex?) for the rotor, if the base is acrylic. Different materials should probably be used. I used HDPE which at the opposite end of the plastic tribo series from acrylic."
********
So where does polyethylene fall into the materials. Being in the States I was using this stuff
http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=372450
since it is cheap and just down the street. I got some shop time last night and got the Rotor machined out of this material. I already started on the base. Maybe the material really does not matter.
Quote from: sterlinga on January 11, 2008, 11:39:58 AM
I should mention also that Doug Furr, the Ph.D. Mechanical Engineer who built our 1/4-scale Perendev Magnet motor (with Brady's permission, but which we couldn't get to work) http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6189540769300973039, expects to finish today his replica of your magnet motor design built by Al. He's sticking to the design as illuminated by Jason O, except he's going 1.5-scale, and his stator magnet is proportionally a little larger. He's not using the Delran sleeve around the stator magnet either, so he'll be able to approach the perimeter more closely (in the process of characterizing the effect) after the initial replication is done.
From: "Overconfident"
To: "Sterling D. Allan" <sterlingda@pureenergysystems.com>
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: I didn't ignore you
Sterling,
Al seems to think the plastic materials might have
some influence on the system. He advises to use Delrin
or HDPE. If things don't seem to work quite right for
some reason, you may want to conside using the
recommended materials.
Here's hoping that doesn't make a difference and by
tomorrow there are several replications able to
reproduce the "Alsetalokin Effect".
OC
Quoteable to reproduce the "Alsetalokin Effect"
I would hope that he would use his real name to define the effect. Using your internet ID seems lame haha.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 11, 2008, 11:42:27 AM
Hi Sean,
I was just gonna tell you about using HDPE to be close to the original. Mine is HDPE, as Jason has it as well in his drawings. However, now that you have it why don't you try it with the plexiglass as well.
Will be trying it with exisiting Rotors and will cut a new HDPE, to try as well.
At first like many others I was hoping the weird effect that AL is seeing came from just the magnets interaction, but now it is surfacing of Static or something that is part of the effect and hence the materials become more important.
Hope we dun't have to make weird Tin Foil hats and where Reef Sandles as well hehe ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: MeggerMan on January 11, 2008, 11:23:17 AM
Hi Sean,
You are getting too good at making rotors. Cannot wait until you get your stator magnets!!!
What thickness of acrylic are you using for the rotor?
The reason I ask is that 20mm, even 15mm acrylic is relatively expensive, but 12mm is so much cheaper.
It looks like 10-12mm from the above photo.
Stator magnets: I did want to say this until I won the auction, but I managed to get some diametrically magnetised 12mm dia. x 6mm thick neodynium disk magnets from the UK, not rings, from ebay, hope to have them early next week.
I searched for:
Neodymium diam*
and found these with an alternative spelling:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Neodymium-Discs-Magnet-Diametrally-pack-10-12mmx6mm_W0QQitemZ310012745179QQihZ021QQcategoryZ80546QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Have you tried mounting a 12mm rod magnet (horizontal) on a bearing for the stator magnet and try this while you wait for your ring magnets?
Regards
Rob
No center hole for mounting?
I`ve not had any reply to my email from E-magnets, but I did get a prompt reply from http://www.monstermagnete.de, there is no import duty if you buy from them and live in the EU, but you will pay German VAT.
Quote from: hydrocontrol
So where does polyethylene fall into the materials. Being in the States I was using this stuff
http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=372450
I used a chopping board once for a mini Minalto experiement:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Fhamel%2Fsmallminat2.jpg&hash=abe58e8eda1507a0d9b4066e4cf0090b86486781)
Looks like it could be the same as HDPE , will compare the two when it arrives.
@CLaNZeR,
I don't believe for a minute that the effect is other than due to the magnetic interaction. The importance of the materials is solely regarding their mass which should provide the correct moment of inertia with regard to the magnetic interactions to observe the effect of acceleration we see in the video.
Quote from: sterlinga
I stopped by his shop last night, and he showed me the clear plastic he will be cutting the rotor and base from, so one can see through it to see that there are no cheater devices attached anywhere. He got the $2,000 sheet of clear 1/2-inch plastic for just $250.
$2000 :o How big was that sheet for that much money?
@CLaNZeR,
Here in NYC a 13 x 13 in. 3/4" piece is almost $50.
I think the static electricity thing is stretching things a bit, not saying it's impossible, but I do not believe for a moment it has anything to do with keeping this device spinning, I think AL has found a way to turn static magnetic force into a dynamic force, I've a feeling(not very scientific I know) that eddy currents and Lenz law is at work here.
@RunningBare,
Static electricity is out of the question. How Eddy currents and Lentz law will contribute to have the disk accelerating and keeping the 3 hour spin at the higher velocity is a fairy tale as well. Prove me wrong. We already know what the reason for this behavior is, I've already provided a well-known analysis for that, and it was illustrated by the diagrams shown several pages back (page 29): http://www.geocities.com/deasyart/steorn/OC_sim_one_stator_a.JPG
Quote from: sterlinga on January 11, 2008, 11:39:58 AM
----- Original Message -----
From: Sterling D. Allan
To: Overconfident
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: I didn't ignore you
....
After this initial open sourcing phase of showing people exactly how to build one of these things, I would encourage those who are able to work on improvements which they can then patent and take to market. Doug will likely be one who will do that. I anticipate that Doug will also help us in the initial phase of characterizing what is going on: testing such things as magnet size, distance, position, etc.
...
> Sterling
Hi sterlinga,
Just curious, shouldn't this whole thing be open sourced and fully transparent all the way? None of the replications would be taking place if OC and Al were to keep their ideas and prototypes to themselves.
OC and AL led the way with fairly good transparency and open source spirit.
What would be the scope of patenting any further developments/improvements?
Thanks
ps: maybe a thread is needed to discuss opensourse vs patent? so not to take this too much of topic.
a 8 mm sheet , 500 x 1000 is 30 euros here..
Quote from: mikestocks2006 on January 11, 2008, 12:29:56 PM
Quote from: sterlinga on January 11, 2008, 11:39:58 AM
----- Original Message -----
From: Sterling D. Allan
To: Overconfident
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: I didn't ignore you
....
After this initial open sourcing phase of showing people exactly how to build one of these things, I would encourage those who are able to work on improvements which they can then patent and take to market. Doug will likely be one who will do that. I anticipate that Doug will also help us in the initial phase of characterizing what is going on: testing such things as magnet size, distance, position, etc.
...
> Sterling
Hi sterlinga,
Just curious, shouldn't this whole thing be open sourced and fully transparent all the way? None of the replications would be taking place if OC and Al were to keep their ideas and prototypes to themselves.
OC and AL led the way with fairly good transparency and open source spirit.
What would be the scope of patenting any further developments/improvements?
Thanks
ps: maybe a thread is needed to discuss opensourse vs patent? so not to take this too much of topic.
Shit >:( (sorry) There's always some SOB that has to capitalizes on some one else's work. If this device obtains multiple reps then lookout the poo is going to hit the fan.
I thought it was open source ???
B.
Hi Sean,
There is a place not far from me in Cannock where I can get sheets of plastics material over the counter, so saving on postage:
http://www.holbourne.co.uk/
They have a minimum order of 20GBP which is not a problem.
The website looks posh but when you get there, like most places its just a big tin warehouse with shelves full of sheets of materials.
They have a couple of big table saws to chop the stuff up with.
I will find out next week what price they can do HDPE for because I think its the postage that will spoil the good price.
Certainly directplasticonline looks to be cheaper than Holborne.
http://www.directplasticsonline.co.uk
[edit] Just checked the directplasticsonline website and the postage is only 5.95GBP for orders under 45GBP and free if its over so that will be hard to beat! [end of edit]
I don't know if you want to go halfs on some different materials?
Also I have some white chopping boards I bought from Tesco quite a while ago that could be used for the rotor. Not sure what material, but it has a very waxy feel to it when you drill into it.
The other materials I have are 10mm A4 sheet of natural nylon, 10mm A4 of ebonite (really expensive) its a sorted of baked hard rubber.
Ebonite stinks when you cut it and is used to make freshwater fishing reels and musical instrument mouth pieces as I remember.
Regards
Rob
Quote from: MeggerMan
I don't know if you want to go halfs on some different materials?
Hi Rob
Thanks for the kind offer, but I have already ordered a sheet of the HDPE as only ?22.00 for a 500*500 sheet and I will probably use it again for other projects.
I have a lot of left over different size polycarbonate and Plexiglass from the various projects over time that I have played with, not to mention magnets and bearings LOL.
I would hate too add it all up, I would probably have a heart attack at the money wasted chasing this FE stuff.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 11, 2008, 11:54:53 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 11, 2008, 11:42:27 AM
Hi Sean,
I was just gonna tell you about using HDPE to be close to the original. Mine is HDPE, as Jason has it as well in his drawings. However, now that you have it why don't you try it with the plexiglass as well.
Will be trying it with exisiting Rotors and will cut a new HDPE, to try as well.
At first like many others I was hoping the weird effect that AL is seeing came from just the magnets interaction, but now it is surfacing of Static or something that is part of the effect and hence the materials become more important.
Hope we dun't have to make weird Tin Foil hats and where Reef Sandles as well hehe ;D ;D ;D
Hi CLaNZeR, other replicators:
May I suggest to anneal HDPE prior final machining to relieve any bulk manufacturing induced residual stresses, (surface cooling gradients, non uniform crystallizations etc) by getting it up to 85-90 deg C for about 30 min to 1 hour (immerse in water etc) and slow cool.
For UHMW it takes somewhat higher temperatures over 100 deg C to 150 C and again slow cooling etc.
This should enable to achieve better dimensional stability and accuracy, especially if any temperature cycling tests are be performed in the future.
I hope this helps
Thanks
Hi Sean,
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 11, 2008, 12:56:20 PM
Thanks for the kind offer, but I have already ordered a sheet of the HDPE as only ?22.00 for a 500*500 sheet and I will probably use it again for other projects.
No problems, I have a crate in the garage full of plastics and metals materials I have collected along the way, the same as you.
I will see how we go, I think I have enough acrylic for the rotor, first signs of something working and that's it, I'll be like a kid in a candy shop....oooh oooh, I'll have one of those, two of those and a bag of sherbit bonbons. ;o)
Regards
Rob
my daughter has built proof of concept..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJgnM5KvBaA
Quote from: Craigy on January 11, 2008, 01:47:29 PM
my daughter has built proof of concept..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJgnM5KvBaA
Excellent mate!!! ;D ;D ;D
Cute ...
if needed, you can order from Germany diametrically polarized stator magnets(10mm):
http://www.monstermagnete.de/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=751
or this one ring magnet made of gold:
http://www.monstermagnete.de/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=700 (18mm)
ciao
Jinis
the interesting thing to note is that practically any size of magnet stuck to the stator bearing will rotate in sync in the geared direction provided the airgap is adjusted accordingly. I assume that part of the tunning proceedure is adjusting the airgap so that gearing is instant. Since this was a quick and dirty stator experiment , i just stuck 2 magnets either side of a 5 mm bearing out of a kakkered disk drive ( i have others but i don?t want to magnatize them just yet.) The draw back of this was that at any speed in excess of 800 rpm on the main rotor caused the magnets to fly off of the stator bearing, but my daughter seems to like it, cannot get her away from the thing..lol
i might make a perspex ring to go around the bearing and drill holes to accept the magnets in the sides, as you cannot do any real testing with the magnets just stuck to the bearing,
@Craigy,
Recall that that's just the effect @gaby de wilde was talking about and @CLaNZeR started exploring prior to any clue that such brouhaha would erupt. There are couple of threads discussing it in this forum. I suppose the greatest problem will be to achieve the proper timing which is the major problem in making these motors work, plaguing the field. It very well may turn out that in the case we're exploring now the timing issue will be easier to solve than in other devices many of us already explored in the past. This remains to be seen.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 11, 2008, 12:04:02 PM
Quote from: sterlinga
I stopped by his shop last night, and he showed me the clear plastic he will be cutting the rotor and base from, so one can see through it to see that there are no cheater devices attached anywhere. He got the $2,000 sheet of clear 1/2-inch plastic for just $250.
$2000 :o How big was that sheet for that much money?
Maybe I misunderstood him, either on the size or type of plastic.
Quote from: Craigy on January 11, 2008, 02:05:08 PM
the interesting thing to note is that practically any size of magnet stuck to the stator bearing will rotate in sync in the geared direction provided the airgap is adjusted accordingly. I assume that part of the tunning proceedure is adjusting the airgap so that gearing is instant. Since this was a quick and dirty stator experiment , i just stuck 2 magnets either side of a 5 mm bearing out of a kakkered disk drive ( i have others but i don?t want to magnatize them just yet.) The draw back of this was that at any speed in excess of 800 rpm on the main rotor caused the magnets to fly off of the stator bearing, but my daughter seems to like it, cannot get her away from the thing..lol
Craigy grrrrrrrrrrr I said I am waiting for the Proper Stator magnets to arrive before I start playing ;D ;D
Ummm and the Kiss motor Stator left overs dropped into my rig accidently below, before you ask!!!
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fkissoc.jpg&hash=b6f3a240b64b0d5bc2f7d84a78d7aa4a29b38734)
;D ;D ;D ;D
ummm just realised looking at that picture, the magnets show you where they are field wise with the 13-8 magnet position config.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fkissoc2.jpg&hash=776681c181e3a768661d6385bcd7ee54645dfe0e)
Hi Sean , will send you those 6 x 12 magnets tomorrow, the spanish post office closes at 2 , so can?t get there til sat.
yes the stators, they will all gear but of course , at .rpm the best shape is cylindrical. hence the magnets we are waiting for. i am tempted to turn a plastic cylinder and plonk 2 small neos in it., but it gets harder to spin the stators in the wrong direction when we are taking about a 10 mm stator diameter. perhaps if i put a plastic flange on them , thus it would be easier to spin up on the dremil
Quote from: mikestocks2006 on January 11, 2008, 12:29:56 PM
Quote from: sterlinga on January 11, 2008, 11:39:58 AM
----- Original Message -----
From: Sterling D. Allan
To: Overconfident
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: I didn't ignore you
....
After this initial open sourcing phase of showing people exactly how to build one of these things, I would encourage those who are able to work on improvements which they can then patent and take to market. Doug will likely be one who will do that. I anticipate that Doug will also help us in the initial phase of characterizing what is going on: testing such things as magnet size, distance, position, etc.
...
> Sterling
Hi sterlinga,
Just curious, shouldn't this whole thing be open sourced and fully transparent all the way? None of the replications would be taking place if OC and Al were to keep their ideas and prototypes to themselves.
OC and AL led the way with fairly good transparency and open source spirit.
What would be the scope of patenting any further developments/improvements?
Thanks
ps: maybe a thread is needed to discuss opensourse vs patent? so not to take this too much of topic.
Yes, this should probably be a different thread.
My take on it is that open source is ideal for the core idea. Open source works fine in the software world from beginning to end because there are no significant capitalization costs. But in the energy marketplace, in order to get capital, one must have a patent; otherwise there is no assurance that someone else won't come along with a similar knock-off and make the capital investment not pan out.
Sterling
Quote from: Craigy
Hi Sean , will send you those 6 x 12 magnets tomorrow, the spanish post office closes at 2 , so can?t get there til sat.
No problems mate, got enough too play with for now hehe
Quote
yes the stators, they will all gear but of course , at .rpm the best shape is cylindrical. hence the magnets we are waiting for. i am tempted to turn a plastic cylinder and plonk 2 small neos in it., but it gets harder to spin the stators in the wrong direction when we are taking about a 10 mm stator diameter. perhaps if i put a plastic flange on them , thus it would be easier to spin up on the dremil
Must admit I have played with those small 6mm Diametrically magnetised magnet and it takes a fair RPM to stop them interacting.
With the Config above, ya be lucky to get 3 revolutions, way too much of a sticky point LOL
When the orginal magnets arrive I think the only way to go for the constant speed is too use the good old Air Compresor to get a steady 400-600 RPM and then start spinning the Stator backwards, then as soon as a reaction is seen, cut the air flow. I have been flicking the small magnets all day and see what AL means by getting a sore finger ;D ;D
Another gawd knows how many hours wasted again, I HOPE NOT LOL
Forgot to say, just received this in my Inbox
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmQf1Yp-Tig
Hope I am not being stalked ;D
@All,
I have and idea that the three stators are required because they reduce the cogging effect at slow speed to smooth out the rotation and reduce the drag. This will be down to their different magnetic phase spacing around the rotor.
At first I thought that perhaps you could work this without them, but now I suspect they are required. I am not sure if AL has tried it with just one stator magnet - maybe someone can advise on this.
The large 19mm thickness allows the rotor mass to be sufficient to again smooth out the rotation.
So a thin rotor may produce a watch hand ticking action that prevents the rotor from syncing in the first place.
Therefore I think I will need to get some 20mm HDPE material after all and try to stick very close to the original design.
Regards
Rob
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 11, 2008, 03:29:43 PM
Forgot to say, just received this in my Inbox
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmQf1Yp-Tig
Hope I am not being stalked ;D
If anyone knows who did this video, please try and get them to do it right. There was editing done that cut out significant parts of the video and no disclaimers are present about the probability that this is NOT OU.
Thanks
@rotorhead,
If the motor does what the video shows and @asetalonkin hasn't faked it (I don't think he has) there is no probability that this isn't OU.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 11, 2008, 04:04:18 PM
@rotorhead,
If the motor does what the video shows and @asetalonkin hasn't faked it (I don't think he has) there is no probability that this isn't OU.
OK Omnibus. This is YOUR project now. I'm outta here.
Quote from: rotorhead
If anyone knows who did this video, please try and get them to do it right. There was editing done that cut out significant parts of the video and no disclaimers are present about the probability that this is NOT OU.
I don't think he did too bad apart from his spelling and he said Clanzer when it should be CLaNZeR grrrrrrrrrr
It would of been nice if AL put a disclaimer on his videos saying it was not OU as well as the other 6+ versions posted since, must agree.
But then if Al originally said that, then would half of us of bothered to try replicate it? Ummm Okay I would, but then I try to replicate anything hehe ;D
All part of the ride of FE and like I said to Al a couple of days ago over at Steorn, it will blow over soon, most things do.
UNLESS it gets replicated, then watch out as it all kicks off.
Quote[cite] alsetalokin:[/cite]For some reason it seems to be working rather well tonight. The rotor rpm is 1334, the stator rpm is 5378. It was difficult to start, it took maybe 20 flips of the stator magnet in all before it "caught". But I am developing a thumb technique that is easier than the finger.
I started it at 02:14. blueletter note: 11 Jan 2008
It is pretty noisy with the bearings chattering and growling, but I think I might be able to sleep.
Quote[cite] alsetalokin:[/cite]Shut down by stopping stator mag at about 09:43
RPM just before shutdown: Rotor 1257, Stator 5030
Al's sleep time = 0
7 hrs. 26 min. run time
And it was stopped manually.
hehehe, everyone must be asleep in here RB ;)
Do you think if we asked nicely Clanzer would build some of his test rigs for us in the Uk? ;)
Links regarding 7 hour 27 min. run time mentioned by RB above:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60132&page=18#Item_10
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60132&page=18#Item_13
Quote from: RunningBare on January 11, 2008, 04:57:13 PM
Quote[cite] alsetalokin:[/cite]For some reason it seems to be working rather well tonight. The rotor rpm is 1334, the stator rpm is 5378. It was difficult to start, it took maybe 20 flips of the stator magnet in all before it "caught". But I am developing a thumb technique that is easier than the finger.
I started it at 02:14. blueletter note: 11 Jan 2008
It is pretty noisy with the bearings chattering and growling, but I think I might be able to sleep.
Quote[cite] alsetalokin:[/cite]Shut down by stopping stator mag at about 09:43
RPM just before shutdown: Rotor 1257, Stator 5030
Al's sleep time = 0
7 hrs. 26 min. run time
And it was stopped manually.
Just checking to see if my registration has taken. ;D
Hi Grimer, & welcome.
can any one summerise this, is it for real or not ?. :o
Quote from: b0rg13 on January 11, 2008, 06:11:07 PM
can any one summerise this, is it for real or not ?. :o
Probably most participants in this thread think it probably is for real.
ETA: lots of people are working on replicating, so we might know soon.
any one know why the first vid was shown in the dark ?....weird.
Quote from: oak on January 11, 2008, 06:06:26 PM
Hi Grimer, & welcome.
Ta. At least I've got another home to go to if Shaun gets
insanely jealous and shuts down the forum. ;D
Quote from: b0rg13 on January 11, 2008, 06:20:28 PM
any one know why the first vid was shown in the dark ?....weird.
When you are involved with something as awesome as this you don't worry about details. There's a brighter version around somewhere.
Hi Grimer , well if its the real thing we still have a long way to go, but as the saying goes if you have enough chimps with pens they will eventually write a work of shakespeare. This might just be that work of shakespeare. I suspect Sean Mccarthy has all the patents regarding the testing of these things even if he hasn?t actually shown us a machine ....Regardless of the outcome its created a buzz that i have missed..
ps , anyone know of to way to stream webcam video , i have been looking at the vlc media player but have not downloaded yet. I would be nice if i could know how to do it from my web cam in the unlikely event something self sustains here LOL, when or if it happens i doubt i will be in the right frame of mind to set it up so thats why i am asking now...
@Grimer: Welcome mate, it taken ya long enough ;D
What I like about this OCmpmm is that the guys OC and AL have not just dissapeared like all the other Rigs and claims we have seen over the years.
They are still around and AL is still posting positive results. This is very rare in the FE world and I think AL is being very sensible claiming it is not OU.
But I am not really worried about whether it is OU or not at this point, Shit if the thing can run for 7 hours with the only SEEN energy being seen put in, is a flick of a thumb, then who cares where the other energy comes from.
Let multiple people show for themselves this weird effect and then we can start analysing on a scale that it deserves.
Exciting week ahead hopefully :)
Quote from: Craigy
ps , anyone know of to way to stream webcam video , i have been looking at the vlc media player but have not downloaded yet. I would be nice if i could know how to do it from my web cam in the unlikely event something self sustains here LOL, when or if it happens i doubt i will be in the right frame of mind to set it up so thats why i am asking now...
Hope ya checked with your Missus, before you start streaming pictures of your Tenerife antics ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Lakes on January 11, 2008, 05:29:53 PM
Do you think if we asked nicely Clanzer would build some of his test rigs for us in the Uk? ;)
@Lakes
If this works mate, I will cut anyone a Rotor who has been involved with these threads, as long as they send me the material ;D
That is a promise, IF it works :)
HI Sean , LOL, Just thought if one of us gets something working it would be great if the others could watch the broadcast, i.e. al could go to sleep while we watched it for him lol
Quote from: Craigy on January 11, 2008, 06:36:04 PM
Hi Grimer , well if its the real thing we still have a long way to go, but as the saying goes if you have enough chimps with pens they will eventually write a work of shakespeare. This might just be that work of shakespeare. I suspect Sean Mccarthy has all the patents regarding the testing of these things even if he hasn?t actually shown us a machine ....Regardless of the outcome its created a buzz that i have missed..
ps , anyone know of to way to stream webcam video , i have been looking at the vlc media player but have not downloaded yet. I would be nice if i could know how to do it from my web cam in the unlikely event something self sustains here LOL, when or if it happens i doubt i will be in the right frame of mind to set it up so thats why i am asking now...
I use windows media 9 encoder when I want a direct real time live stream, it does however require a lot of bandwidth for decent quality image, its quite powerful and free.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/forpros/encoder/default.mspx
Quote from: Craigy on January 11, 2008, 06:36:04 PM
Hi Grimer , well if its the real thing we still have a long way to go, but as the saying goes if you have enough chimps with pens they will eventually write a work of shakespeare. This might just be that work of shakespeare. I suspect Sean Mccarthy has all the patents regarding the testing of these things even if he hasn?t actually shown us a machine ....Regardless of the outcome its created a buzz that i have missed..
ps , anyone know of to way to stream webcam video , i have been looking at the vlc media player but have not downloaded yet. I would be nice if i could know how to do it from my web cam in the unlikely event something self sustains here LOL, when or if it happens i doubt i will be in the right frame of mind to set it up so thats why i am asking now...
There is a site which makes it very easy to stream webcam video with little or no tech knowledge, one caveat is that the site in question can contain "adult" content, so over 18`s only, but it is free to join and I will set up a custom room that could be password protected if required to keep out the "normal" customers...
If you want to check it out the address is www.meetcam.com there are four webcam servers there, one of which is usually seldom used anyway.
Also includes voice and text chat.
EDIT: Its uses ActiveX (which is perfectly safe on this site) but becuase of this you have to Internet Explorer with XP or vista OS, it will not work with FireFox.
Stephan also did a couple of links live here on OU from a place called www.ustream.tv. Seemed to work well and also had a chat area to go along with the video which had sound link also. He imbedded it into one of the messages so all you had to do was view the message and live you went. Worth a shot.
thaelin
Hi guys
Haven't posted here in a long time. Thought I would update you on the following. Al explained he would start the OC-MPMM before he went to sleep and see if it was still running when he got up.
His words - a quote from steorn forum- - alsetalokin:
Shut down by stopping stator mag at about 09:43
RPM just before shutdown: Rotor 1257, Stator 5030
This was an over 7 hr run.
He stopped manually - Noone yet knows how long it will run. Pretty amazing stuff - history is being made here.
Hello All,
Just a little update. I picked up my bearings today. They are very nice! ;D I also priced two levels up, of precision bearings, and they will run just over $6.00 USD each. Once our replication is up and kicking, this will be my first improvement to try. The step after that will be air bearings. Each type of bearing is rated for more RPM's, having less friction. Less friction, less heating of the bearings, etc. Who knows, but it is my plan. I know the bearing's can be greatly improved and see how that effects over all performance.
I am still waiting on my magnets. Hopefully tomorrow. Machine shop found and parts to be ordered. Exact materials called for.
I am thinking of a few other ideas also. Laughable that some would attempt to patent an open source project.
I also am thinking, if the dampers are removed, it speeds up to?? becomes unstable, because of the mechanics. A weak magnetic field at tremendous speed, with a properly wound coil can produce a lot of electricity. Shrink it down, size it up. Figure out a way to remove the dampers and keep it stable. What would the RPM's be? 7,500? 10,000? 15,000? LOL
I do agree, a lot of fun ahead!! ;D
Cheers,
Bruce
A seven hour run is exciting. Got magnets, just have to get the rest of the machine together!
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 11, 2008, 06:37:00 PM
@Grimer: Welcome mate, it taken ya long enough ;D
Yeah ...well, I thought it was more for you practical people who do things rather than people like me.
During the war they used to say that the Brits were much think and little do, whereas the Yanks were...well we wont go into that, ;)
QuoteA seven hour run is exciting. Got magnets, just have to get the rest of the machine together!
I got all the mags too and am also trying to get the rest of the machine together.... Maybe as soon as tonight....
Dan
Quote from: btentzer on January 11, 2008, 07:05:35 PM
Hello All,
Just a little update. I picked up my bearings today. They are very nice! ;D I also priced two levels up, of precision bearings, and they will run just over $6.00 USD each. Once our replication is up and kicking, this will be my first improvement to try. The step after that will be air bearings. Each type of bearing is rated for more RPM's, having less friction. Less friction, less heating of the bearings, etc. Who knows, but it is my plan. I know the bearing's can be greatly improved and see how that effects over all performance.
I am still waiting on my magnets. Hopefully tomorrow. Machine shop found and parts to be ordered. Exact materials called for.
I am thinking of a few other ideas also. Laughable that some would attempt to patent an open source project.
I also am thinking, if the dampers are removed, it speeds up to?? becomes unstable, because of the mechanics. A weak magnetic field at tremendous speed, with a properly wound coil can produce a lot of electricity. Shrink it down, size it up. Figure out a way to remove the dampers and keep it stable. What would the RPM's be? 7,500? 10,000? 15,000? LOL
I do agree, a lot of fun ahead!! ;D
Cheers,
Bruce
EXACTLY - The dampers slow it down to keep it stable. How about a coil with a load in place of the dampers. This should do the same thing as the dampers with the proper load !!
it was estimated that total run time was a day and a half in theory, i am guessing that the magnets are saturating , which would account for the slowing down. perhaps the position of the other stators is wrong in that respect. if that were the case then a fine tunning of one of the stationary stators would could push the rotor magnets back down from saturated and enable constant runs.
Since the machine can be re-started the magnets are not depleating.
All of this is fine , but until we reproduce this we will never know for sure, an while i would like it to work i will not hold my breath. I am enjoying the ride tho..
Quote from: tinu on January 10, 2008, 08:47:24 PM
Quote from: g4macdad on January 10, 2008, 07:59:43 PM
Omnibus,
Read my post more carefully. I was saying that you are not a zealot or Pharisee. I have seen you get continuously attacked so the defensive attitude is forgivable.
Omnibus is not being attacked.
He just pretends to have a proof that he simply hasn?t. What he does have is a limited understanding of SMOT and a huge ego. But little science indeed. I?d guess his skills are somewhere around to those of a high-school teacher but not a brilliant one. I?d be curious to know about his real credentials?
Anyway, the story is long and this issue is off-topic here. But if you want to find more, just ask Omnibus politely to show you where is the CoE violation for SMOT ?proved beyond any doubt?. And you?ll see and understand for yourself.
Cheers everyone and sorry for deviating from the topic.
Tinu
I have seen Omnibus's posts for almost a year in the Steorn forum. Most the people there seem to have far less knowledge on this subject than they would have us think (skeptics and nonskeptics alike). I have no more reason to doubt him than anyone else. Leave him alone and provide your own "proofs", or keep quite. Thanks ;)
Quote from: Craigy on January 11, 2008, 07:31:27 PM
it was estimated that total run time was a day and a half in theory, i am guessing that the magnets are saturating , which would account for the slowing down. perhaps the position of the other stators is wrong in that respect. if that were the case then a fine tunning of one of the stationary stators would could push the rotor magnets back down from saturated and enable constant runs.
Since the machine can be re-started the magnets are not depleating.
All of this is fine , but until we reproduce this we will never know for sure, an while i would like it to work i will not hold my breath. I am enjoying the ride tho..
I understand what your saying - But - If it doesnt have a battery or motor hidden or somewhere nearby, and I don't think it does and IF it works as described or shown in the video - like was said on another forum thread
" if this aint overunity, then I'm a banana."
A PESWiki user, Chris Wilshaw posted the following comment:
QUOTE:
I have been reading up on this idea since joining PES Wiki a couple of days ago, I see there have been thousands of comments made along the way.
I think asymmetry is the key too, as that is the idea in my magnet motor. It stands to reason that a symmetrical system would find a comfy place and rest there. Just thinking of a simple simple version it's like a magnetic compass. There has to be some way of splitting a circle into divisions that the magnets can't get comfy with.
Can someone here tell me how to get my idea prototyped?
>>> Perpetually Rotating Bar Magnet Arrangement <<<
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Perpetually_Rotating_Bar_Magnet_Arrangement (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Perpetually_Rotating_Bar_Magnet_Arrangement)
/END QUOTE
His email is chriswilshaw {at} gmail.com
Quote from: Dusty on January 09, 2008, 10:14:22 PM
Well, I'm all ready for testing tomorrow. Everything is ready just to drop in the magnets and test away. I've been building test machines for the Butch lafonte Group for the last few years. If this works I'll build two more, one for Butch and one for another guy in our group. We'll do many tests, so you will hear about it.
Just Wonding Dusty any news. Seems very quiet.
Wayne
Quote from: Dansway on January 11, 2008, 07:11:31 PM
QuoteA seven hour run is exciting. Got magnets, just have to get the rest of the machine together!
I got all the mags too and am also trying to get the rest of the machine together.... Maybe as soon as tonight....
Dan
Me too. Got the rotor done but need the bearings for the stator magnets. I ordered them from Applied Technology since they are in town but they will not come in till Monday.. :'( At least it will give me time to finish the base..
TomG
Quote from: magpower on January 11, 2008, 08:16:56 PM
Quote from: Dusty on January 09, 2008, 10:14:22 PM
Well, I'm all ready for testing tomorrow. Everything is ready just to drop in the magnets and test away. I've been building test machines for the Butch lafonte Group for the last few years. If this works I'll build two more, one for Butch and one for another guy in our group. We'll do many tests, so you will hear about it.
Just Wonding Dusty any news. Seems very quiet.
Wayne
Hi, im that "other guy" dusty is talking about.
Public message from Butch today on the JLN labs newsletter:
" the LaFonte Group is building three for testing by three different group
members. We expect to test today or tomorrow.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte"
You should here from us soon.
Hi All,
Glad to see some of the users over at the Steorn forum have come over to join us. As of now, I have my magnets for the motor, and Bruce is sending me some bearings for it. Bruce and I are working with another person, Hank to get a single prototype built. Should have the machine work finished sometime early next week, but as I can see, I have a feeling that a lot of you hear may beat us to the punch ;).
There are a couple of notes that I would like to bring up. First off, could one of you Steorn users pass along the blueprint PDF file to Al? I am almost certain everything is correct in it but I would feel even better to know that he approves of the dimensions I put in it. Here's the direct link to the file:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3871.0;attach=16346
Also, I've noticed a few discussions relating to the theory about how this may work. Bruce mentioned the simulations that AL did showing some spikes in the graphs:
Quote from: btentzer on January 10, 2008, 09:42:23 PM
@ Jason
Take a look at the bottom shot of this OC sim posted from Al's thread. Al was commenting on the bottom negative spike. Does that look to you what I think? Remember that post of yours along time ago, about the exact same looking negative spike?
Perhaps I am seeing things? ???
LOL
Let me know what you think. It is intriguing.
http://www.geocities.com/deasyart/steorn/OC_sim_one_stator_a.JPG
Cheers,
Bruce
I have done some research on an effect that produces similar spikes to the ones in the graph Bruce pointed out. My conviction is that this motor runs on the Magnetic 90 Degree Rule. I wrote an extensive article about this a couple of years ago. Here is a link to it for anyone who may be interested:
http://www.fdp.nu/free_energy.asp?book=90
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: sterlinga on January 11, 2008, 08:01:58 PM
A PESWiki user, Chris Wilshaw posted the following comment:
QUOTE:
I have been reading up on this idea since joining PES Wiki a couple of days ago, I see there have been thousands of comments made along the way.
I think asymmetry is the key too, as that is the idea in my magnet motor. It stands to reason that a symmetrical system would find a comfy place and rest there. Just thinking of a simple simple version it's like a magnetic compass. There has to be some way of splitting a circle into divisions that the magnets can't get comfy with.
Can someone here tell me how to get my idea prototyped?
>>> Perpetually Rotating Bar Magnet Arrangement <<<
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Perpetually_Rotating_Bar_Magnet_Arrangement (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Perpetually_Rotating_Bar_Magnet_Arrangement)
/END QUOTE
His email is chriswilshaw {at} gmail.com
IMHO and my experience
It's no more or no less the result would be the same as Perendev Device.
Pulling magnetic force on the one side plus Pushing magnetic force on another side equal to zero.
I noticed this quote at the bottom of one of the pages. Can someone tell me who is the author - Presumably the owner of the site. Being a Newbie I'm still finding my way around, :-\
==============================================================
Any concepts or ideas expressed in this post are intended for the public domain. Free licence is given to reproduce and or modify provided it is for non-profit use. I don't want money, I want overunity.
==============================================================
"[C]ould one of you Steorn users pass along the blueprint PDF file to Al? I am almost certain everything is correct in it but I would feel even better to know that he approves of the dimensions I put in it."
Jason, your blueprint was pointed out to alsetalokin two days ago. He said you did a great job, and suggested a slight modification:
Wow! That looks like something I could build!
That's a really good job, Jason.
I see you even put the thread fit class in.
The only thing I would add or change is the rotor axle. I know it's what I showed in most of the pictures. But if you look at the later ones, you will see a 3.5 mm shaft instead of the 1/4-20 brass screw, and the 1/2 in hole in the rotor has been "plugged" with a Delrin insert to adapt to this shaft. The shaft is mounted in a dual ball bearing holder with a spring compression end-play eliminator, and the holder in turn is mounted on the base, in lieu of the brass screw. The rotor now simply slides on and off the shaft. For upside down runs I secure the rotor with a little retaining collar with a setscrew.
It's nice to see a real engineering drawing for a change. I usually just sketch stuff on napkins, and that makes it hard to see those leftover bits of food that are so tasty in the middle of the night.
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60141&page=2#Item_10
(And he's right, it is a great job.)
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 11, 2008, 09:17:53 PM
Hi All,
Glad to see some of the users over at the Steorn forum have come over to join us. As of now, I have my magnets for the motor, and Bruce is sending me some bearings for it. Bruce and I are working with another person, Hank to get a single prototype built. Should have the machine work finished sometime early next week, but as I can see, I have a feeling that a lot of you hear may beat us to the punch ;).
(Snip)
A correction, three prototypes being built. One for each of us. ;)
Plus fish oil for the bearings. (go figure! LOL It might be the smelliest motor, but when it works.. hehehe!)
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: SoeN on January 11, 2008, 09:19:07 PM
Quote from: sterlinga on January 11, 2008, 08:01:58 PM
A PESWiki user, Chris Wilshaw posted the following comment:
>>> Perpetually Rotating Bar Magnet Arrangement <<<
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Perpetually_Rotating_Bar_Magnet_Arrangement (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Perpetually_Rotating_Bar_Magnet_Arrangement)
IMHO and my experience
It's no more or no less the result would be the same as Perendev Device.
Pulling magnetic force on the one side plus Pushing magnetic force on another side equal to zero.
I would guess that this is what a physicist would say about any magnet motor configuration.
It's nice to see a real engineering drawing for a change.
Sure is :) . Took me back half a century to sharpening my H pencil on a sanding block.
But you've probably never seen on of those. ;)
Quote from: Grimer on January 11, 2008, 10:56:41 PM
It's nice to see a real engineering drawing for a change.
Sure is :) . Took me back half a century to sharpening my H pencil on a sanding block.
But you've probably never seen on of those. ;)
Or perhaps scratching India ink with a razorblade of the transparent paper and rubbing the spot with a little soap so you could draw a new line without it running??
Hans von Lieven
;D Wow!
Check out this post of Al's, from the latest test. I had a feeling those stator's could go a lot faster.
"was able to get a 12-to-1 resonance going. With the unit operating, presumably on the one stator, I spun another stator magnet really fast gearwise, and it caught, and ran very smoothly, I could tell the stator was spinning faster than usual, and I was amazed when the tach confirmed it. 2 examples: rotor 1050, stator GW 12586. Rotor 1040, stator GW 12454."
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: oak on January 11, 2008, 10:33:06 PM
"[C]ould one of you Steorn users pass along the blueprint PDF file to Al? I am almost certain everything is correct in it but I would feel even better to know that he approves of the dimensions I put in it."
Jason, your blueprint was pointed out to alsetalokin two days ago. He said you did a great job, and suggested a slight modification:
Wow! That looks like something I could build!
That's a really good job, Jason.
I see you even put the thread fit class in.
The only thing I would add or change is the rotor axle. I know it's what I showed in most of the pictures. But if you look at the later ones, you will see a 3.5 mm shaft instead of the 1/4-20 brass screw, and the 1/2 in hole in the rotor has been "plugged" with a Delrin insert to adapt to this shaft. The shaft is mounted in a dual ball bearing holder with a spring compression end-play eliminator, and the holder in turn is mounted on the base, in lieu of the brass screw. The rotor now simply slides on and off the shaft. For upside down runs I secure the rotor with a little retaining collar with a setscrew.
It's nice to see a real engineering drawing for a change. I usually just sketch stuff on napkins, and that makes it hard to see those leftover bits of food that are so tasty in the middle of the night.
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60141&page=2#Item_10
(And he's right, it is a great job.)
Thanks!
I completely missed that post :P.
I would be happy to add the axle assembly to the blueprints but I'm not sure what the dual ball-bearing holder with the spring compression end-play holder (wow what a mouth full) looks like. Is that something you can buy already like that or did he custom make it? Is there any way I could get more information on it. Maybe even a rough dimensioned sketch of the assembly? If so, I'd be happy to add it to the blueprints.
One other thing I'm wondering is if the motor still works alright with the screw as the shaft as opposed to the 3.5 mm one?
God Bless,
Jason O
I got news from Butch (and so from Dusty):
"Nicolas,
Dusty received 3/16" magnets and needed 1/4". New magnets should be in by Monday. Also, the original builder said the rotor has to be the material he used and not clear plastic so the mass will be the same as well as static electricity properties. Dusty is making a new rotor so it will match the original design exactly. Then if it is successful, try it with the clear plastic rotor.
Butch"
So sorry to say guys, but we are still waiting for magnets..
G'day all,
I believe my first post on this thread. I have been following for a few weeks (read all of postings)
Toolmaker by trade (retired by circumstances not age or ability), though a lot of experience with electro/mechanical devices.
This has been mentioned before no doubt, though I shall again, to replicate a device all dimensions and materials used in original device should be strictly adhered to, otherwise not a replication.
Everything, is in the information and if i may say Duplicate, then experiment.
For the duplicators/replicators.
http://www.ospmm.com/whipmag/
Den
ps. I at present would kill for some basic equipment!!!!!!! Keep up the excellent work :)
pps taken from http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60142&page=1#Item_1
Jason, I posted your questions about the rotor axle design in a location where alsetalokin will see them:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=29#Item_29
(Side note to Steorn forum members: if you have 'whispers' (private messages) in a particular thread in that forum, then a url intended to take you to a certain post will take you to the wrong post; if you sign off the url will take you to the correct location.)
Quote from: sterlinga on January 11, 2008, 11:39:58 AM
I should mention also that Doug Furr, the Ph.D. Mechanical Engineer who built our 1/4-scale Perendev Magnet motor (with Brady's permission, but which we couldn't get to work) http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6189540769300973039, expects to finish today his replica of your magnet motor design built by Al. [...] All his parts: magnets and bearings, will be arriving today.
Doug got his parts, but didn't have time to machine the thing. He might be able to get back to it over the week-end, but he has a patent on another project that he has to finish by Monday.
A couple of funny things.
Doug said that when he was calling the magnet guys they commented something to the effect that all the sudden people were ordering this one kind of magnet, and they ran out. They didn't know why there was this sudden rush. I guess no one told them.
Doug didn't have this problem because he's going 1.5-scale. However, when the magnets arrived, the bill was like $600. It turns out that rather than ordering 1 pack of 10, and one pack of 5, they ordered 10 packs of 10 and 5 packs of 5; so they're loaded with magnets.
Quote from: hansvonlieven on January 11, 2008, 11:00:11 PM
Quote from: Grimer on January 11, 2008, 10:56:41 PM
It's nice to see a real engineering drawing for a change.
Sure is :) . Took me back half a century to sharpening my H pencil on a sanding block.
But you've probably never seen on of those. ;)
Or perhaps scratching India ink with a razor blade of the transparent paper and rubbing the spot with a little soap so you could draw a new line without it running??
Hans von Lieven
:) That really took me back. Fortunately I had a Graphos pen and didn't have to rely on the more primitive type which looked like a wading birds beak. We also had some damn tough tracing sheet material so one wasn't in danger of scraping a hole in it. Probably why we never had to resort to soap.
I kept as far away from that as possible in those days. Still do to be quite honest, ;D
Quote from: sterlinga on January 12, 2008, 01:08:39 AM
Quote from: sterlinga on January 11, 2008, 11:39:58 AM
...
Doug didn't have this problem because he's going 1.5-scale. However, when the magnets arrived, the bill was like $600. It turns out that rather than ordering 1 pack of 10, and one pack of 5, they ordered 10 packs of 10 and 5 packs of 5; so they're loaded with magnets.
A relation of mine in Belgium was ordering some stuff and he forgot the decimal point, Instead of one box a complete lorry load turned up. :o
Quote from: oak on January 12, 2008, 12:39:34 AM
Jason, I posted your questions about the rotor axle design in a location where alsetalokin will see them:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=29#Item_29
(Side note to Steorn forum members: if you have 'whispers' (private messages) in a particular thread in that forum, then a url intended to take you to a certain post will take you to the wrong post; if you sign off the url will take you to the correct location.)
Hi Oak,
Thanks for posting that for me. I'll be very interested to see what Al comes back with.
God Bless,
Jason O
I II III IV V VI VII VIII
5240 5273 5283 5292 5298 5334 5338 5360 rpm stator
1311 1317 1319 1322 1328 1334 1315 1340 rpm rotor
3.99 4.00 4.00 4.00 3.99 3.99 4.06 4 ratio
the magic number 4
I believe some one who had Inventor software or a kind of, could making a simulation, using ratio 4:1 of stator:rotor instead of using strobo light to the working unit.
Please.... ::)
Hi everyone !
I've been following this thread for a while and thought I'd jump in and say something real quick. First, I hope all the replicators have great success, I am really looking forward to their finished rigs and videos. Second, and more importantly, regarding a comment made by Sterling Alan:
"I would encourage those who are able to work on improvements which they can then patent and take to market. Doug will likely be one who will do that."
As a proponent and obvious believer in free energy, I find it troubling that Sterling was the first to mention anything about patents, as it relates to financial windfalls. I am so proud of Al and OC for keeping their work open and believe that even mentioning $$ at this point is kind of counterproductive. I will say that Sterling has also made an effort to contribute to the project but I hope we all realize that the repercussions of a successful replication(s) are of great importance to all electric consumers and keeping the technology open and free will set us all free from the constraints of big business, namely the oil and ultimately the utility companies. There's nothing wrong with someone making a profit from an original idea I guess but already talking about patenting "improvements" to a fledgling technology\process\idea just doesn't sit right with me. Just my 2 cents and feel free to move this post to a dedicated topic such as open vs. patent if the moderators so choose to in their infinite wisdom.
Again, thanks Al and OC for bringing hope back to the hopeful, thanks to all that have spent time contributing, and good luck to all attempting to replicate !
Schoolboy
Hear Hear Schoolboy. OC & Al have said all along that they want their idea to be open. Even if their discovery is not OU, if it works as advertised, there is something very special working here. Anyone who does something so special in the world does not go unrewarded in modern times. I think some people are rather boldly taking charge of administration or attempting to do so.
So is there anyone with a working/non-working replica yet...besides the inventor of course???
(thats an OU version of "are we there yet?") ;D
This claim is so different from all other previous ones that it brought me back to ou stuff....very very interesting indeed.
Quote from: ebswift on January 12, 2008, 03:46:19 AM
Even if their discovery is not OU, if it works as advertised...
In can not be
working as advertised and
non-OU in the same time.
Quote from: tinu on January 12, 2008, 04:41:45 AM
Quote from: ebswift on January 12, 2008, 03:46:19 AM
Even if their discovery is not OU, if it works as advertised...
In can not be working as advertised and non-OU in the same time.
=). Well currently, as-advertised, it is an anomaly :D.
I hear that we might be thinking about streaming a web cam. Once the upstream bandwidth is known, then i can get a since for how we are going to stream the video. My first idea is to use Nullsoft Streaming Video and use something like peercast so that we can have more then 2 people watching.
Check your bandwith with this
http://www.speakeasy.net/speedtest/
Starting point for streaming video
http://www.peercast.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1986
Option B is to use a Skype plugin called Festoon. Only thing it's MIA, so it probably wont work.
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Internet/Chat/Instant-Messaging/vSkype.shtml
Here are more options for OpenSource P2P streaming video
http://www.scvi.net/stream/soft.htm
If we don't want to hassle with OpenSource or skype this might be a good option, although i'm still waiting for my broadcast activation email.
http://neokast.com/
If we send them an email i'm sure they would be quite willing to help seeing how they are "beta"
Here is a live West coast stream
http://neokast.com/#VideoPlayback%26streamid%3D1f3edb3b9ac511dc922d0002b3db9ec1
live East cost
http://neokast.com/#VideoPlayback%26streamid%3D2b642553fa0711db8e5b0002b3db9ec1
If its not sunny then u don't see much, these are apparently live. Check for sunlight
http://www.worldtimezone.com/datetime.htm
Let me know if you guys need any video help.
-Mikeytown2
REMOVED post
Cheers
Sean.
Jason, here is alsetalokin's reply to my post about the rotor axle design:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=29#Item_42
These two earlier comments might also be useful:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=7&Focus=2266671#Item_20
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=26&Focus=2266671#Item_6
http://ustream.tv/channel/overunity-testing
just testing , can you connect and see if its any good? Broadcasting live from tenerife
Hi Oak,
Thank you for the information! That is most helpful.
While looking through the links, I noticed this quote from Al:
QuoteAhh, no. These tests have so far only been performed in my basement. I discovered the effect over the holidays, today was the first day back at the lab, and I had the unit disassembled for the bearing mod, and didn't put it back together till I got home.
(http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=7&Focus=2266671#Item_22)
Does this mean that he had the unit working when the screw was still being used as an axle?
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: Craigy on January 12, 2008, 08:18:23 AM
http://ustream.tv/channel/overunity-testing
just testing , can you connect and see if its any good? Broadcasting live from tenerife
Hi Craigy,
Yes I can see your video stream. You have that rotor disk belted to a DC motor?
God Bless,
Jason O
yes , just for the effect of seeing something moving lol
Quote from: Craigy on January 12, 2008, 08:18:23 AM
http://ustream.tv/channel/overunity-testing
just testing , can you connect and see if its any good? Broadcasting live from tenerife
Perfect in London. :)
so its quiet easy , to do i am surprised, well got 8 people connected at one time so not bad lol
Quote from: Craigy on January 12, 2008, 08:18:23 AM
http://ustream.tv/channel/overunity-testing
just testing , can you connect and see if its any good? Broadcasting live from tenerife
Got the stream here in the midlands very clearly, nice one Craigy.
ok will leave it running for an hour , but it seems a good system if you need to broadcast a motor spinning lol
Quote from: Craigy on January 12, 2008, 08:44:45 AM
ok will leave it running for an hour , but it seems a good system if you need to broadcast a motor spinning lol
Receiving fine this end. Will make a note of that link.
Good pic here PNW stateside. I have seen upwards of 50 on a channel at the same time. Just check out perillo on ustream. He has quite a gang hanging out.
thaelin
Good pic, smooth streaming, here in Canada.
Quote from: Grimer on January 12, 2008, 08:29:46 AM
Quote from: Craigy on January 12, 2008, 08:18:23 AM
http://ustream.tv/channel/overunity-testing
just testing , can you connect and see if its any good? Broadcasting live from tenerife
Perfect in London. :)
second that, better than a screensaver ;-)
I wonder if those of you in Australia will be spinning the rotor counter clockwise and the one stator magnet counter clock wise (the exact opposite of this hemisphere -Northern) to get your replication to work. I would wager yes... ;) But we will see!
An interesting video, related, but not anti-gearwise. I wonder if he spun another "master gear" anti-gearwise if it would make the whole thing self sustain also. A lot of new ground open for experimentation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRN-KCqlBxI&NR=1
Cheers,
Bruce
I hope someone gets a replicaction done soon,I haven't slept more than a couple hours at a time this past week.
Quote from: Craigy on January 12, 2008, 08:18:23 AM
http://ustream.tv/channel/overunity-testing
just testing , can you connect and see if its any good? Broadcasting live from tenerife
[/quote
Works fine in IE6 for me here on the east coast US, but nothing shows up in Firefox for me.
Quote from: wildgunz on January 12, 2008, 09:34:05 AM
I hope someone gets a replication done soon. I haven't slept more than a couple hours at a time this past week.
Good for you mate. You've got the right attitude. ;D
Started doing some weighing and wind down tests with NO stator magnets.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Ftests%2Fweight1.jpg&hash=6e483dbe74461ae7c2214061cf61f8bdcec843df)
The little 3mm RC bearings top and bottom give a good 4 minute wind down from 1000RPM with Rotor Magnets.
Find Video below:
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/1000RPMCLaNZeRSRotor1.wmv
BTW I span it upto 4000 RPM without magnet just now and it started too lift off the table at 2500 RPM, so Blue Tacked the feet down and they are only just staying there at 4000 RPM, so be warned LOL ;D ;D ;D
Span it up with Air Line as below.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Ftests%2Fair1.jpg&hash=7c262c63d0aa15824b1c12bf6708be270dbc2bd5)
Off to find a bit of timber too screw then base plate too and add the extra weight !
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 12, 2008, 08:25:24 AM
Hi Oak,
Thank you for the information! That is most helpful.
While looking through the links, I noticed this quote from Al:
QuoteAhh, no. These tests have so far only been performed in my basement. I discovered the effect over the holidays, today was the first day back at the lab, and I had the unit disassembled for the bearing mod, and didn't put it back together till I got home.
(http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=7&Focus=2266671#Item_22)
Does this mean that he had the unit working when the screw was still being used as an axle?
God Bless,
Jason O
That's how I would interpret what he said.
@CLaNZeR,
Thanks for the video. I see your rotor being 199g is lighter than @alsetalonkin's 258g. Could you try turning it first by hand? I wonder if these 1000rpm were imparted by hand or not? Recall, when @alsetalonkin turns it by hand the spin is at ~400rpm. As the things are going here I'll be starting these experiments on Monday, hopefully. Have the magnets already, the bearings will probably arrive today bu the parts won't be ready till Monday.
I didn?t like al?s reply to sean about the materials, on the steorn forum.. was it me or was he being patronising?
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 12, 2008, 09:36:59 AM
Started doing some weighing and wind down tests with NO stator magnets.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Ftests%2Fweight1.jpg&hash=6e483dbe74461ae7c2214061cf61f8bdcec843df)
The little 3mm RC bearings top and bottom give a good 4 minute wind down from 1000RPM with Rotor Magnets.
Find Video below:
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/1000RPMCLaNZeRSRotor1.wmv
BTW I span it upto 4000 RPM without magnet just now and it started too lift off the table at 2500 RPM, so Blue Tacked the feet down and they are only just staying there at 4000 RPM, so be warned LOL ;D ;D ;D
Span it up with Air Line as below.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Ftests%2Fair1.jpg&hash=7c262c63d0aa15824b1c12bf6708be270dbc2bd5)
Off to find a bit of timber too screw then base plate too and add the extra weight !
Cheers
Sean.
@ Sean
The rotor has only reached speeds below 2K. The faster the stator magnets spin, the slower the rotor. Where Al ran two of the stator magnets anti-gear wise, where they both sped up over 12,000 rpm's, the rotor was 1000 rpm. So I don't think that you need worry about lift off, just yet! LOL
Good work!!
Bruce
Quote from: Craigy on January 12, 2008, 10:05:43 AM
I didn?t like al?s reply to sean about the materials, on the steorn forum.. was it me or was he being patronising?
Well he never answered the question did he ;D I said I had ordered some HDPE as he had recommended on another thread with the answer coming back as :
************
Nylon is about like congealed asphalt as far as machinability goes. It is usually molded to shape.
The Delrin (or Acetal in the civilized world) is what I used for the early rotors and all the stator bearing/magnet holders, and the 3.5 mm to 1/2 in shaft adapter. It is by far the nicest plastic to machine. It has a sensual quality about it that is somewhat indescribable. Why, when I first met Delrin...but that's another story.
Oh, and the mechanical properties are nice too.
***********
So maybe I should or ordered some Actel hehehe ;D
@btentzer,
Hey, what are you doing over here kicking it with the magnet motor guys? >:(
Get back and finish your TPU before it gets cold! :D
Quote from: Rosphere on January 12, 2008, 10:20:42 AM
@btentzer,
Hey, what are you doing over here kicking it with the magnet motor guys? >:(
Get back and finish your TPU before it gets cold! :D
I can't help myself Mike! It is the "attraction" to something that might very well be history making. (every pun intended.)
And get it right, it's, "Kicking it with the TPU guys and rotating it with the magnet guys!" ;D ;D :D
Actually they are both about rotating magnetic fields, just different ways of doing it. Or is it? What makes SM's TPU work? He doesn't know why. What makes this work? Hmmm......
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: Omnibus on January 12, 2008, 09:56:28 AM
@CLaNZeR,
Thanks for the video. I see your rotor being 199g is lighter than @alsetalonkin's 258g. Could you try turning it first by hand? I wonder if these 1000rpm were imparted by hand or not? Recall, when @alsetalonkin turns it by hand the spin is at ~400rpm. As the things are going here I'll be starting these experiments on Monday, hopefully. Have the magnets already, the bearings will probably arrive today bu the parts won't be ready till Monday.
A quick video showing the difference between hand and air line.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRSRoto1byhandbyairline.wmv
Cheers
Sean
Quote from: btentzer
The rotor has only reached speeds below 2K. The faster the stator magnets spin, the slower the rotor. Where Al ran two of the stator magnets anti-gear wise, where they both sped up over 12,000 rpm's, the rotor was 1000 rpm. So I don't think that you need worry about lift off, just yet! LOL
But we got to plan for the future Bruce hehe, When I pop it in me car it is not gonna go very fast at 1000RPM is it? ;D ;D ;D ;D
hi sean putting more wieght on the rotor makes it easier to sync as the initial braking effect is not as pronounced with 3 times more wieght . i have now put perspex disks above and below to triple the wieght ot plastic rotor and it seems to make sync easier. I am off to turn some stators holders for the magnets i have here and then maybe can do some reverse spins
@CLaNZeR,
OK, makes sense. Yours is lighter and you get it to spin by hand at over 500rpm (his is around 400rpm with about 120s wind down time). Would you by any chance have a DC motor to mount the rotor on it and measure the current and voltage necessary to have it spin at 550rpm on the one one hand and at, say, 1500rpm on the other. Let's see what the difference in power is. Then we can compare these data with calculated ones based on the moment of inertia of the rotor.
Quote from: Craigy on January 12, 2008, 11:16:49 AM
hi sean putting more wieght on the rotor makes it easier to sync as the initial braking effect is not as pronounced with 3 times more wieght . i have now put perspex disks above and below to triple the wieght ot plastic rotor and it seems to make sync easier. I am off to turn some stators holders for the magnets i have here and then maybe can do some reverse spins
Well that HDPE should be here Monday as they despatched today, so will get the extra weight I need.
Was going to add weight to the Rotor I already have by cutting a couple of dummy rotors out. thinking about it I have some 6mm polycarbonate here, so I maybe will mill two rotors out and add them to the 8mm rotor.
@All
Why did Alsetalokin remove the video and why does he so stubbornly refuse to post any more to youtube ?
Regards,
Dean
?Would it have anything to do with all the questions he has been hit with? Give the guys a break, just let it play out. If its true, then there will be others publishing vids you can watch.
thaelin
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 12, 2008, 11:49:57 AM
@All
Why did Alsetalokin remove the video and why does he so stubbornly refuse to post any more to youtube ?
Regards,
Dean
I wish he would do more, but why should he?, hes not making any claims and he believes it could be external EM fields that keep it spinning, EM fields such as those generated by house wiring.
@ RB,
I agree, he is not obliged to do anything.
But why remove the original video ?
Cheers,
Dean
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 12, 2008, 12:10:07 PM
@ RB,
I agree, he is not obliged to do anything.
But why remove the original video ?
Cheers,
Dean
He said he doesnt like all the attention he received.
Quote from: Nicolas Roger on January 12, 2008, 12:15:08 PM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 12, 2008, 12:10:07 PM
@ RB,
I agree, he is not obliged to do anything.
But why remove the original video ?
Cheers,
Dean
He said he doesnt like all the attention he received.
Hassle would be closer, the vid had not been up long before loads piled in on him with questions and shouts of fake.
Quote from: Craigy on January 12, 2008, 08:18:23 AM
http://ustream.tv/channel/overunity-testing
just testing , can you connect and see if its any good? Broadcasting live from tenerife
Works ok in Firefox as well, but appears to be no voice chat, only text.
Right now I have a 20mm Thick Rotor.
Extra 6mm dummies cut
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Ftests%2Ftd1.jpg&hash=dea2798f81233a0c9fdcaa30762c8ad51dbf5d5a)
Stuck together
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Ftests%2Ftd2.jpg&hash=9fb99d268294c4ed66b9ea2d0fb47a904b3de379)
Weighed.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Ftests%2Ftdweight.jpg&hash=cb86a475c1396664c9a3f716356b95a2246c575e)
Off to do a wind down test.
Cheers
Sean.
Hi all, got my first anti gear spin using the wrong magnets but no sustain or acceleration to report yet
Quote from: Craigy on January 12, 2008, 01:47:14 PM
Hi all, got my first anti gear spin using the wrong magnets but no sustain or acceleration to report yet
Well done. First step of the journey, 8)
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 12, 2008, 09:36:59 AM
Started doing some weighing and wind down tests with NO stator magnets.
[...]
BTW I span it upto 4000 RPM without magnet just now and it started too lift off the table at 2500 RPM, so Blue Tacked the feet down and they are only just staying there at 4000 RPM, so be warned LOL ;D ;D ;D
[...]
Hi Sean,
Are you joking or did you really see some possible anti-gravity effects? I would think that this alone would be worth serious investigation. Could you show that by video? Unsecure the legs, and allow lift-off (with proper teathering and device protections in place).
Sterling
Quote from: sterlinga on January 12, 2008, 01:54:03 PM
Hi Sean,
Are you joking or did you really see some possible anti-gravity effects? I would think that this alone would be worth serious investigation. Could you show that by video? Unsecure the legs, and allow lift-off (with proper teathering and device protections in place).
Sterling
Ever consider something as simple as down draft?
Quote from: Craigy on January 12, 2008, 01:47:14 PM
Hi all, got my first anti gear spin using the wrong magnets but no sustain or acceleration to report yet
Craigy, the rotor looks a bit small, rotor magnets too close to each other, possibly too long. My tests show best ratio of rotor magnet to stator dia: 1:1 to 1.5:1
Quote from: RunningBare on January 12, 2008, 01:58:56 PM
Quote from: sterlinga on January 12, 2008, 01:54:03 PM
Hi Sean,
Are you joking or did you really see some possible anti-gravity effects? I would think that this alone would be worth serious investigation. Could you show that by video? Unsecure the legs, and allow lift-off (with proper teathering and device protections in place).
Sterling
Ever consider something as simple as down draft?
Oh, I forgot to add low air pressure above the rotor at those high RPMs
But seriously, could someone explain the connection between gravity and magnetism, I see this around these boards quite often, my understanding is that magnetism and gravity only have similar characteristics but they do not interact,
Well gawd that was boring filming that LOL ;D ;D
But from 1000RPM it took 8 minutes 30 seconds to Wind Down.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Ftests%2F20mmRotor2.jpg&hash=395489e22c0dfe79c5b062aabdf59741a3027b4e)
Here is a Video and if anyone watches the whole of it, you are a sadder man than me ;D ;D ;D ;D
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRS20mmrotor2winddown.wmv
Off too look at Craigy's video :)
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: rotorhead on January 12, 2008, 02:04:09 PM
Quote from: Craigy on January 12, 2008, 01:47:14 PM
Hi all, got my first anti gear spin using the wrong magnets but no sustain or acceleration to report yet
Craigy, the rotor looks a bit small, rotor magnets too close to each other, possibly too long. My tests show best ratio of rotor magnet to stator dia: 1:1 to 1.5:1
Hi There , this is the playing before i get the correct magnets, i have the correct rotor on its way and the correct magnets, besides the stators themselves are 2 small neos drilled into a perspex disk, i am surprised i got anything with those..
Quote from: sterlinga
Are you joking or did you really see some possible anti-gravity effects? I would think that this alone would be worth serious investigation. Could you show that by video? Unsecure the legs, and allow lift-off (with proper teathering and device protections in place).
Sterling
It is because there are holes in the baseplate, the down draft forces it up.
I had this with another Rig in the Summer when it hit 4000RPM and that just had one 40mm hole under the Rotor, but was enough for the down draft too force it upwards.
Quote from: RunningBare on January 12, 2008, 02:07:21 PM
Quote from: RunningBare on January 12, 2008, 01:58:56 PM
Quote from: sterlinga on January 12, 2008, 01:54:03 PM
Hi Sean,
Are you joking or did you really see some possible anti-gravity effects? I would think that this alone would be worth serious investigation. Could you show that by video? Unsecure the legs, and allow lift-off (with proper tethering and device protections in place).
Sterling
Ever consider something as simple as down draft?
Oh, I forgot to add low air pressure above the rotor at those high RPMs
But seriously, could someone explain the connection between gravity and magnetism, I see this around these boards quite often, my understanding is that magnetism and gravity only have similar characteristics but they do not interact,
Mmm...Well it could be that the OCAL effect is a manifestation of the polarisation of inertia - which is another way of saying the polarisation of mass since the definition is the same for both. Mass is not a measure of the amount of stuff but a property of stuff. If you increase the velocity of a body the mass increases but the number of protons, etc. the amount of "stuff" remains constant.
Now it is conceivable that if mass is polarised that there will be less seeing the gravitational wind that blows steadily downwards. So its conceivable that the weight of the rotor will decrease.
Quote from: Craigy on January 12, 2008, 02:16:29 PM
Quote from: rotorhead on January 12, 2008, 02:04:09 PM
Quote from: Craigy on January 12, 2008, 01:47:14 PM
Hi all, got my first anti gear spin using the wrong magnets but no sustain or acceleration to report yet
Craigy, the rotor looks a bit small, rotor magnets too close to each other, possibly too long. My tests show best ratio of rotor magnet to stator dia: 1:1 to 1.5:1
Hi There , this is the playing before i get the correct magnets, i have the correct rotor on its way and the correct magnets, besides the stators themselves are 2 small neos drilled into a perspex disk, i am surprised i got anything with those..
Got any 1/4" cubes? One of them mounted in center of the stator, poles facing out, might have a chance. Didn't notice any other stators. Are they there?
Quote from: sterlinga on January 12, 2008, 01:54:03 PM
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 12, 2008, 09:36:59 AM
Started doing some weighing and wind down tests with NO stator magnets.
[...]
BTW I span it upto 4000 RPM without magnet just now and it started too lift off the table at 2500 RPM, so Blue Tacked the feet down and they are only just staying there at 4000 RPM, so be warned LOL ;D ;D ;D
[...]
Hi Sean,
Are you joking or did you really see some possible anti-gravity effects? I would think that this alone would be worth serious investigation. Could you show that by video? Unsecure the legs, and allow lift-off (with proper teathering and device protections in place).
Sterling
There is a HUGE difference between lift and inertia. Think of "helicopter", not "anti-gravity". :D ;D
Quote from: RunningBare on January 12, 2008, 01:58:56 PM
Quote from: sterlinga on January 12, 2008, 01:54:03 PM
Hi Sean,
Are you joking or did you really see some possible anti-gravity effects? I would think that this alone would be worth serious investigation. Could you show that by video? Unsecure the legs, and allow lift-off (with proper teathering and device protections in place).
Sterling
Ever consider something as simple as down draft?
LOL! Naw, it's anti-gravity, let's patent it! ;)
In the video there is just one stator , i made more stators but was so excited after installing the first one that i ran out of time to install magnets in the others lol, what a plonker i must be..Like i said have the correct magnets on their way , but can?t sit here doing nothing
@Sterlinga
I remember seeing an old x craft that had discs on either side of the body that spun at high rpm's and provided thrust for the plane. It was a real old plane tho somewheres in the 50's i think. But supports that concept.
Joe
Quote from: Craigy on January 12, 2008, 02:31:48 PM
In the video there is just one stator , i made more stators but was so excited after installing the first one that i ran out of time to install magnets in the others lol, what a plonker i must be..Like i said have the correct magnets on their way , but can?t sit here doing nothing
That's why I suggested trying cubes. Give you something to try while waiting.
Quote from: Craigy
Hi There , this is the playing before i get the correct magnets, i have the correct rotor on its way and the correct magnets, besides the stators themselves are 2 small neos drilled into a perspex disk, i am surprised i got anything with those..
Great Craigy, ya had too go playing TUT, ya could not wait for ya proper stator magnets TUT.
Right SOD you I am off too play as well hehehe ;D
Well done mate.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 12, 2008, 02:15:24 PM
Well gawd that was boring filming that LOL ;D ;D
If you get bored again, you could settle another old debate and see if it runs longer with the axle set horizontally.. :P
Quote from: jcims
If you get bored again, you could settle another old debate and see if it runs longer with the axle set horizontally.. :P
Not that old Chestnut again LOL
If I have got time tomorrow I will give it a go at a 90 degree angle.
Will be interesting, as there is hardly any play in the axle on this Rig.
We shall see hehe :)
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 12, 2008, 03:57:41 PM
If I have got time tomorrow I will give it a go at a 90 degree angle.
Trust me, I'm accelerating those magnets to your location through sheer willpower, hopefully you have more much more fascinating endeavors taking up your time.. :;D
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 12, 2008, 03:57:41 PM
Quote from: jcims
If you get bored again, you could settle another old debate and see if it runs longer with the axle set horizontally.. :P
Not that old Chestnut again LOL
If I have got time tomorrow I will give it a go at a 90 degree angle.
Will be interesting, as there is hardly any play in the axle on this Rig.
We shall see hehe :)
Can you do it while standing on your head juggling magnets?
Quote from: RunningBare
Can you do it while standing on your head juggling magnets?
Thats easy as will be juggling the magnets in one hand?
ummm that leaves one hand free to video it I suppose ;D
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 12, 2008, 04:20:48 PM
Quote from: RunningBare
Can you do it while standing on your head juggling magnets?
Thats easy as will be juggling the magnets in one hand?
ummm that leaves one hand free to video it I suppose ;D
Or you could bust out an old school headspin..magnets in each hand. Get someone going the other way and you could have perpetual breakdancing.
Greetings, first post :)
Is the general consensus that this is an electrostatic device or purely magnetic? Im guessing the the jury is still out.
I must congratutlate CLaNZeR on his workmanship. That rig looks awesome!
CLaNZeR I have a diametrically magnetised (N40) NdFeB ring magnet , If your in the NW I can pop it in the post although i understand your trying to stay as close to the original; I though it may come in handy...
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k285/Callidus80/Image1.jpg
Quote from: Smit80
Greetings, first post :)
CLaNZeR I have a diametrically magnetised (N40) NdFeB ring magnet , If your in the NW I can pop it in the post although i understand your trying to stay as close to the original; I though it may come in handy...
Welcome to the forums Smit80
Thank you for your kind offer, but as you stated I will try and keep as close as I can to the original.
37mmm is huge, where did ya get that?
Many thanks anyway and appreciatted.
Cheers
Sean.
Smit80,
This is categorically not an electrostatic device. The jury isn't out on this.It spins, to say the least, doesn't it?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 12, 2008, 04:56:07 PM
Smit80,
This is categorically not an electrostatic device. The jury isn't out on this.It spins, to say the least, doesn't it?
How is your replication Omnibus? Last I heard, you had all the magnets and materials. Is yours spinning yet?
@rotorhead,
Read couple of pages back.
Thanks for the welcome :)
Yes it is huge and it has had my fingers more than once ;)
It came from china.... A good few years ago when the SEG showed its face I experimented with various setups.. Nothing as expertly engineered as what you have displayed.. But this was one of a few 'you never know when it will come in handy' purchases..
Recently I have been looking for magnet importers for size 130motors and the cheapest I have found is www.permanentmagnet.com they can do almost any size and orientation you request. I think they only accept T/T payment but bear-in-mind I have never purchased from them, so can not vouch for their reliability.
Oh the SEG that brings back memories..... lol
Quote from: Smit80
Oh the SEG that brings back memories..... lol
LOL Doesn't it just, I still got my membership and pop on the site every month, SOD all going on though apart from some videos last year, that I could create with normal magnets let alone custom made ones LOL ;D ;D ;D
Shame they never released full info on the Searl Glass SEG as this would allow us normal people to replicate.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 12, 2008, 05:03:51 PM
@rotorhead,
Read couple of pages back.
Monday, huh? With all the delays everyone else is experiencing, I thought you might possibly be the first.
Dusty has finish the new design for the LaFonte Group with proper materials .
Still waiting for the right magnet size.
see attachement
Dusty,
Looking GOOD! Do you have any 3/8" neo cubes you could squeeze into those stators and see what kind of reaction you get?
Quote from: Nicolas Roger on January 12, 2008, 06:00:23 PM
Dusty has finish the new design with proper materials.
Still waiting for the right magnet size.
see attachement
ConGrads Dusty
Appears to be a very close replication ;) Really glad to see this !
Great work
B.
Quote from: vipond50 on January 12, 2008, 07:45:55 PM
ConGrads Dusty
Appears to be a very close replication ;) Really glad to see this !
Great work
B.
Yea the only other best replication i know is Al's own motor. So if the LaFonte Group's replication doesnt spin, it will be interesting to here Al's explanations..
Quote from: Nicolas Roger on January 12, 2008, 10:17:14 PM
Quote from: vipond50 on January 12, 2008, 07:45:55 PM
ConGrads Dusty
Appears to be a very close replication ;) Really glad to see this !
Great work
B.
Yea the only other best replication i know is Al's own motor. So if the LaFonte Group's replication doesnt spin, it will be interesting to here Al's explanations..
Your not going to get an explanation, AL is pretty well convinced the cause is external EM fields such as those found in house wiring or perhaps EM from local transmitters.
Quote from: Nicolas Roger on January 12, 2008, 10:17:14 PM
Quote from: vipond50 on January 12, 2008, 07:45:55 PM
ConGrads Dusty
Appears to be a very close replication ;) Really glad to see this !
Great work
B.
Yea the only other best replication i know is Al's own motor. So if the LaFonte Group's replication doesnt spin, it will be interesting to here Al's explanations..
EM field is out of the question as an explanation. However, as I've said many times, if I see the effect from the video I will carry out also an experiment in a Faraday cage just to exclude through an experiment this ridiculous "explanation". If LaFonte or anybody else couldn't achieve the effect in question, the immediate explanation would be that the replication isn't exact and the conditions for proper timing haven't been met (excluding the possibility that @alsetalonkin's demonstration is an outright fraud).
Speaking of additional experiments which can be done by those who have the rotor now, while waiting for the rest of the parts to arrive (I don't have the rorot yet) is the following. Attach the rotor to a DC motor, spin it at, say, 400rpm and measure the current and the voltage. Then spin the same assembly at 1200rpm and again measure the current and the voltage in the course of, say, one hour to get the energy. This experiment will give us roughly the Joules needed to maintain the observed rpm after the effect kicks (the effect of producing energy out of nothing) in the actual experiment. Of course, we can then compare this experimental result with calculation of the kinetic energy using the moment of inertia of the disk.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 12, 2008, 11:06:06 PM
Speaking of additional experiments which can be done by those who have the rotor now, while waiting for the rest of the parts to arrive (I don't have the rorot yet) is the following. Attach the rotor to a DC motor, spin it at, say, 400rpm and measure the current and the voltage. Then spin the same assembly at 1200rpm and again measure the current and the voltage in the course of, say, one hour to get the energy. This experiment will give us roughly the Joules needed to maintain the observed rpm after the effect kicks (the effect of producing energy out of nothing) in the actual experiment. Of course, we can then compare this experimental result with calculation of the kinetic energy using the moment of inertia of the disk.
Except DC motors aren't nearly 100% efficient, especially when used as a generator. It would be better just to calculate the rotational energy in joules the rotor has at 1200 RPM's and then, using the time it takes to spin down, calculate the friction being imparted on it.
Then you use the calculated friction (in joules), and use that as the amount of energy it would take to keep the rotor spinning at a constant speed (seeing as the friction is what slows it down; by adding the same amount of energy, it won't lose speed).
The calculation isn't as straightforward as you present it, although roughly it can be done. What you describe is approximately what I had in mind. As for the experiment which will give us a better idea for the effect, I'm not going to use the motor as a generator. I will mount the studied rotor onto the DC motor and will apply electric energy to the motor to spin it. The energy per unit time to spin that assembly at 400rpm will be the product of the current and the voltage I'll measure. I won't even need to correct it for the energy of the free spinning (without the rotor mounted) because I'll do the same measurement of the current and the voltage at 1200rpm. It would be interesting how the calculated and the experimental effect compare as well as the rough estimate of the energy produced out of nothing in th course of claimed 71/2 hours. Hope it's clearer now.
I guess I read your post wrong... its getting a bit past my bed time here :P
That makes more sense. Still though, it wouldn't hurt to have the efficiency curve of the motor so you can help calculate waste energy vs. useful energy. After all, permanent magnets, given that they can indeed rotate the rotor, won't produce waste heat as electromagnetics do.
Oh, no doubt about it. Efficiency curve has to be measured. Would be curious to see your details for such calculation of the waste which at different rpm will be different, of course.
Maybe more telling will be to measure the transient voltage x current to get the rotor spin from 0 to 400rpm (which is the rpm due to the researcher's input). Integrated it would give the input energy. Gain in energy at 1200rpm (energy obtained from within, out of nothing) would be the difference of the integrated voltage x current curve (mostly horizontal also in the actual experiment, I suppose) integrated over, say, 1 hour minus what we got for the input energy.
Well you'd have to have a suitable equation for waste energy with regards to time 't'. Then after measuring how long it takes to get up to speed (time 'a'), you merely integrate the function from 0 to a, and the resulting value would be in some energy unit similar to Joules (that is, it could be converted without mis-matching temporal units).
Most motors have datasheets with efficiency curves (atleast I think they do), which often present some type of graph. Once you figure out the degree of the function presented, you can calculate a regression model using points presented on the graph. Then its as easy as integrating the function.
Hope that helps ;)
I though that's what I suggested above but I may be wrong.
Oh ok, your latter post would indeed be more telling. Although the energy calculated to spin up to 400rpms and then to 1200rpms would still be a bit off due to heat loss (thats all I'm really worried about).
I'll look for a generalized equation for DC motor efficiency.
EDIT: Sorry Omni, posted it before I saw it =P
Alright, here's what I found to be the equation for efficiency:
efficiency = (Torque in in-oz)*(speed in rev/sec)/((current in amps)*(voltage in volts)*22.5)
The only issue is finding out what the torque is (given there is no data sheet) and measuring current and voltage accurately over time.
But in order to find the energy in Joules that was imparted as useful energy, you would have to integrate a different function incorporating the immediate energy being used:
Useful Energy = (((Torque in in-oz)*(speed in rev/sec)/((current in amps)*(voltage in volts)*22.5))*((current in amps)(voltage in volts)))
EDIT: I've just read that standard DC motors generally have an efficiency of around 50%, with brushless coming in around 60%. Thus it is critical that we calculate accurately instead of merely using current*voltage, as that would be wayyy off.
Thanks @Dyamios. That efficiency equation isn't obvious to me but I guess it's some sort of an empirical equation. Very useful information, though. Hope to discuss this more with you when I get some results from the experiments. Can't wait.
Alrighty, sure thing.
If you present me with some graphs of voltage and current over time, I can form regression models and plug them into the "Useful Energy" equation of my previous post.
From there we can integrate and come up with the final value.
Ordered today a laser tachometer but who knows how long it would take to get to the US. Will have to borrow from someone while waiting. Also, have to find a proper DC motor for this purpose. Any suggestions? As a Faraday cage I'm thinking of using a metal file cabinet covered by a metal gauze on top to see what's going on inside.
Thanks. Will send you data to discuss as soon as I get them.
Later I'd like to get a tachometer with an RS-232 to have the rpm monitored continuously throughout the entire period of working of the device. Very expensive, though.
@Omni
Have you recieved all your parts for replication yet ?
Cheers,
Dean
Oh, good thing you got the tachometer. I just noticed that the useful energy equation calls for rpms as well.
As far as DC motors go, any type will do really. Just make sure it can get up to the desired RPM (and preferably higher).
And for a faraday cage, any fine metal/copper mesh will due. Most EM wavelengths which would interfere are far too long to penetrate a 16th inch mesh or something around there. Just look at the front of your microwave. That little mesh can block 700 watts of 2.4ghz radiation.
Although solid metal shielding would work just as well.
On another note, when performing the experiment, it would be beneficial to videotape all the meters and tachometer and such so it's easier to consolidate and measure the data later. Otherwise you'd need a lot of people watching and plotting each one.
Cheers!
Not yet. I got the magnets, was expecting the bearings today but didn't get them and the parts are probably gonna be ready by Monday, hopefully. They were supposed to be ready by tomorrow (Saturday) but things never work as expected, especially when you're so anxious to start as soon as possible.
Oh, and the data doesn't have to be like... 10 data points/sec, so an RS232 tachometer isn't really necessary. Even 1/sec - 1/4sec would be fine (since it would be possible to form a regression model after plotting the data points).
See, I'm more concerned about the effect itself which has to be documented in detail. That's why the RS-232. You know what ridiculous questions are asked. One would do better to be as thorough as possible.
Tomorrow will try to pull out the bearing from several hard drives. Can't wait until Monday. Does anyone have any experience in that?
Very true, very true. Well, you're free to do whatever you please. If you want a RS232 Tachometer, then by all means get one! Thats the amazing thing about being human ;)
I've taken apart many a harddrive in my day. The modern ones seem to have the bearings somehow riveted in, glued, or otherwise permanently secured in the metal casing. Some have screws holding them in, but the head type is often obsure or weird such that they are nearly impossible to remove.
Are you looking for a specific type of bearing? I've got a surplus store not far from me which has many different types.
-------------------
Bed time for me
We posted the LaFonte Group replication video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dRYz1fl98k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dRYz1fl98k)
Note: We are still waiting for the proper sized magnets to arrive.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 13, 2008, 12:37:16 AM
Tomorrow will try to pull out the bearing from several hard drives. Can't wait until Monday. Does anyone have any experience in that?
Yes, I have opened several HDD, and they spin OK, but use the HDD casing and spindler, just flip it around. Then you can build a Al rotor in 1 hour. I did that yesterday, but my stator magnet is not right, so it will not self run. (yet), but I can make it sync in non gear mode, and that is good.( both are running CW or CCW).
Svein
@ Omni
I am very keen to replicate but still cautious as to whether this is a joke of some kind. I will be a 2nd gen replicator for sure.
The design reminds me of a crop circle I saw once a long time ago. see: http://www.cropcirclesecrets.org/predictions98.html
Its all very exciting though, cant wait to see how you go. Good Luck
Dean
Quote from: Nicolas Roger on January 13, 2008, 01:24:10 AM
We posted the LaFonte Group replication video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dRYz1fl98k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dRYz1fl98k)
Note: We are still waiting for the proper sized magnets to arrive.
@Nicolas
Is this built directly from jdo's spec sheets ?
Good work BTW
Cheers,
Dean
I can't tell (because i simply don't know).
But our builder was sure aware of those spec sheets.
@ clanzer
I think your getting some false triggering from the transparency and opacity with the magnets. That looked a lot slower than 73 RPM at the end.
It looks like your bearing efficiency is even better if your initial RPM's were actually 1/8 (assuming the tach was triggering off the mags) of 1000 !
Time for some black tape around the circumference and a reflectodot :D
Cheers!
Good Job so far
Quote from: Omnibus on January 13, 2008, 12:37:16 AM
Tomorrow will try to pull out the bearing from several hard drives. Can't wait until Monday. Does anyone have any experience in that?
The parts come apart fairly easily. If you want to disassemble the main drive motor to remove the coils and ring magnet, you drive or press the main shaft out of the base (the shaft is driven out from the base where you can see it in the middle of the motor in the bearings_024 image below). That doesn't take a great deal of force. Once that's open, if you work around the coils with a flathead screwdriver the coils will work loose and fall out. You normally only have to work the coils in a circle twice over. If you work the coils apart without touching the base you can do this without any scaring (not that scaring will matter too much in here; if you are too rough you can end up with a couple of sharp jaggies sticking up that may grab the top part when you re-assemble, but if necessary you can file those away without affecting smoothness when it's spinning).
At the ring magnet end, generally (depending on the age of the motor) you will see that it is contained inside a metal ring which is pressed onto the top of the motor assembly. With a pair of adjustable pliers/multigrips or a vice you can progressively squeeze that metal ring from a few angles and it will pop off without scaring anything. You can then gently knock the assembly back together and it will be a free-spinning bearing without the coils & magnets.
edit: here are the kinds of bits you end up retrieving (these are from older drives):
http://www.ebswift.com/WhipMag/Bearings_022.jpg
http://www.ebswift.com/WhipMag/Bearings_024.jpg
http://www.ebswift.com/WhipMag/Bearings_025.jpg
Hi All,
Looking good so far! Omnibus, great to hear that you'll be ready to roll by Monday. As for everyone else, about when do you all expect to start preliminary testing?
In the meantime, I was thinking that it may be a good idea to put together a PDF with a listing of different experiments that we should all try. I've seen many people come up with lots of good ideas but perhaps it would be a good idea to come up with something like this before we all start testing (especially if we all manage to get it working). Then we will all have a set of standards to follow so we can compare data. If you are interested, just post your test ideas (old and new), and I'll see if I can compile a file for everyone.
Speaking of which, did Al ever see if he could get the motor to sync up with only one stator? Or did he always have to start it with three and then stop the first two?
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 13, 2008, 01:29:54 AM
@ Omni
I am very keen to replicate but still cautious as to whether this is a joke of some kind. I will be a 2nd gen replicator for sure.
The design reminds me of a crop circle I saw once a long time ago. see: http://www.cropcirclesecrets.org/predictions98.html
Its all very exciting though, cant wait to see how you go. Good Luck
Dean
Wow.. That is interesting... Got the below image from your link..
@Hydro,
I am not trying to detract from the science or to imply a metaphysic is involved, though the image did inspire me to create my own magnet motor designs. I am in russia now so not really sure where to go to get parts or machining done, might be something of a challenge. Cant wait for the green light from a serious replication though. Chomping at the bit here ;)
Cheers,
Dean
I have looked at Al's and also my rotor and when running the stator and rotor the same direction they will lock up like I have show on the drawing.
When the stator and rotor magnets are at the closes to each other (like in drawing 1).
The magnet will be reduced in strength. Then in drawing 2, we should have divided it up in several shots, because so much is happening here. Fist we have a breaking effect. The stator and rotor are in attraction, but are moving away from each other. During this phase the magnets are increasing in strength and when we get to the position shown in picture 2 the stator magnets start to feel the next rotor magnet and we are getting a net pull or gain on the rotor. Now the magnets are recovering in strength and we are getting a stronger pull because the magnets are now stronger. In picture 3, the magnets are weakened again.
In situation 1 and 3 we have strong braking and acceleration, but the net transfer of power between the rotor and stator is close to zero.
My theory is that most of the gain or transfer of energy is in picture two because of this magnetic lag and change of magnetic strength on the magnets.
Where the magnets are getting the energy that are building up this strength in the magnet I do not know.
It would be interesting to simulate this in FEMM. Any takers?
If we look at the stator magnet and say it is rotating at 6000 rpm, to make the calculation easy. That will be 100 rev. per second or 36 degrees per millisecond. If the lag time is 1 millisecond, it will rotate 36 degrees before it fully recovers its strength and that is good. If we want to run at a much lower speed we should use magnets with longer lag time.
Svein
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 13, 2008, 02:45:37 AM
Hi All,
Looking good so far! Omnibus, great to hear that you'll be ready to roll by Monday. As for everyone else, about when do you all expect to start preliminary testing?
In the meantime, I was thinking that it may be a good idea to put together a PDF with a listing of different experiments that we should all try. I've seen many people come up with lots of good ideas but perhaps it would be a good idea to come up with something like this before we all start testing (especially if we all manage to get it working). Then we will all have a set of standards to follow so we can compare data. If you are interested, just post your test ideas (old and new), and I'll see if I can compile a file for everyone.
Speaking of which, did Al ever see if he could get the motor to sync up with only one stator? Or did he always have to start it with three and then stop the first two?
God Bless,
Jason O
Hi Jason,
Great minds think alike
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3906.0.html
@All
I am still not clear on whether the JDO specifications are exactly what Al has built or not ?
Can anyone clarify this, it seems a grey area, or did i miss a post regarding this?
Dean
Dear Friends,
it seems the old rumour mill has started to grind, I got this from the web site of Magnetic Power Inc. Mark Goldes is always putting puff pieces on his site about how his machine is just around the corner. But does he really know something we don't know.
Quote:-
A handful of videos that (briefly) appeared on the internet have stimulated a flurry of interest in magnetic motors that may be made to self-run, without any obvious outside source of input energy. At least one of them apparently worked well enough, for the 22 year old inventor to now be cooperating with a potential manufacturer, in order to market his device. While skeptics abound (and without independent laboratory confirmation, have excellent reason to be skeptical) these experiments may have opened a door to wider appreciation of an extremely important potential for rapidly reducing our dependency on fossil fuels.
Deep regards
Yorkshire Miner
Quote from: yorkshireminer on January 13, 2008, 06:01:32 AM
Dear Friends,
it seems the old rumour mill has started to grind, I got this from the web site of Magnetic Power Inc. Mark Goldes is always putting puff pieces on his site about how his machine is just around the corner. But does he really know something we don't know.
Quote:-
A handful of videos that (briefly) appeared on the internet have stimulated a flurry of interest in magnetic motors that may be made to self-run, without any obvious outside source of input energy. At least one of them apparently worked well enough, for the 22 year old inventor to now be cooperating with a potential manufacturer, in order to market his device. While skeptics abound (and without independent laboratory confirmation, have excellent reason to be skeptical) these experiments may have opened a door to wider appreciation of an extremely important potential for rapidly reducing our dependency on fossil fuels.
Deep regards
Yorkshire Miner
If he's talking about WhipMag, he's got some of his facts wrong (as usual). If this is some other magnet motor, more power to the inventor. I hope he makes it.
QuoteAt least one of them apparently worked well enough, for the 22 year old inventor to now be cooperating with a potential manufacturer, in order to market his device.
Hmmm... I guess that the marketed version would have to be considerably modified if prior art (as already plastered all over the forums and YouTube) is not to scupper plans to monopolise and capitalise on its marketed potential. Alternatively, there's the registered designs route, though plenty of scope I'm sure for all manner of incarnations of this very interesting device.
Probably a good time soon to experiment with suitable means of generating energy from the magnet motor
and publicise them, particularly to stop anyone monopolising on such through patent channels. Doing so could then effectively deny anyone else the right to exploit the invention for all manner of potential good ;)
All the best,
FunkyJive
Quote from: yorkshireminer on January 13, 2008, 06:01:32 AM
Dear Friends,
it seems the old rumour mill has started to grind, I got this from the web site of Magnetic Power Inc. Mark Goldes is always putting puff pieces on his site about how his machine is just around the corner. But does he really know something we don't know.
Quote:-
A handful of videos that (briefly) appeared on the Internet have stimulated a flurry of interest in magnetic motors that may be made to self-run, without any obvious outside source of input energy. At least one of them apparently worked well enough, for the 22 year old inventor to now be cooperating with a potential manufacturer, in order to market his device. While skeptics abound (and without independent laboratory confirmation, have excellent reason to be skeptical) these experiments may have opened a door to wider appreciation of an extremely important potential for rapidly reducing our dependency on fossil fuels.
Deep regards
Yorkshire Miner
Al is a lot older than 22 and the last thing I can imagine him doing is co-operating with a manufacturer.
If it's true it must be someone else.
Quote from: Grimer on January 13, 2008, 06:43:52 AM
Al is a lot older than 22 and the last thing I can imagine him doing is co-operating with a manufacturer.
If it's true it must be someone else.
Yeah, and the words "true" and "Magnetic power inc" do not go together well.
Quote from: Grimer on January 13, 2008, 06:43:52 AM
Al is a lot older than 22 and the last thing I can imagine him doing is co-operating with a manufacturer.
If it's true it must be someone else.
How old is OC ?
Maybe the author was not implying that it might be Al partnering with a manufacturer.
And even so, who would blame him in doing so ?
Dean
Quote...and the last thing I can imagine him doing is co-operating with a manufacturer
I guess most men have their price, and as Dean said "Who could blame him?".
I am aware of good past ideas and inventions going the way of monopolisation and then market suppression, but fundamentally this certainly holds promise of a major discovery that should absolutely not be suppressed.
All the best,
FunkyJive
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 13, 2008, 06:52:29 AM
Quote from: Grimer on January 13, 2008, 06:43:52 AM
Al is a lot older than 22 and the last thing I can imagine him doing is co-operating with a manufacturer.
If it's true it must be someone else.
How old is OC ?
Maybe the author was not implying that it might be Al partnering with a manufacturer.
And even so, who would blame him in doing so ?
Dean
OC is older than Al, and he has absolutely no plans to partner with anyone. The tech is free for the taking.
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 13, 2008, 06:52:29 AM
Quote from: Grimer on January 13, 2008, 06:43:52 AM
Al is a lot older than 22 and the last thing I can imagine him doing is co-operating with a manufacturer.
If it's true it must be someone else.
How old is OC ?
Older than 22.
Since the tech is free for the taking, anybody can cash in on it by being the first one to manufacture a toy or even something that does something useful.
It would be nice to think somebody is in fact doing this, since it would mean one person has replicated the device, but it's more likely typical Goldes rubbish.
Quote from: Harvey on January 13, 2008, 02:15:42 AM
@ clanzer
I think your getting some false triggering from the transparency and opacity with the magnets. That looked a lot slower than 73 RPM at the end.
It looks like your bearing efficiency is even better if your initial RPM's were actually 1/8 (assuming the tach was triggering off the mags) of 1000 !
Time for some black tape around the circumference and a reflectodot :D
Hi Harvey
I usually spray the Rotors black and pop the reflective spot on or as you suggest black tape, With the transparent Rotor it does play up else at slower revs.
But for the time wind downs it was good enough hehe
Will get it sorted for the next one!.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: canam101 on January 13, 2008, 07:33:13 AM
Since the tech is free for the taking, anybody can cash in on it by being the first one to manufacture a toy or even something that does something useful.
It would be nice to think somebody is in fact doing this, since it would mean one person has replicated the device, but it's more likely typical Goldes rubbish.
I kind of admire and pity OC and AL all at the same time .. if this is the real deal all the world will really remember is the GE portable energy unit
coming out most likely.
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 13, 2008, 10:21:07 AM
Quote from: canam101 on January 13, 2008, 07:33:13 AM
Since the tech is free for the taking, anybody can cash in on it by being the first one to manufacture a toy or even something that does something useful.
It would be nice to think somebody is in fact doing this, since it would mean one person has replicated the device, but it's more likely typical Goldes rubbish.
I kind of admire and pity OC and AL all at the same time .. if this is the real deal all the world will really remember is the GE portable energy unit
coming out most likely.
It's open source though. Thus, while GE may be able to manufacture models, they can't claim exclusive rights to the technology. I mean, you don't see one company manufacturing car engines. Many do, and that's because its open technology.
It's actually kind of better that way. It incites competition, and thus brings about better, improved technologies.
Quote from: jcims on January 12, 2008, 03:49:03 PM
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 12, 2008, 02:15:24 PM
Well gawd that was boring filming that LOL ;D ;D
If you get bored again, you could settle another old debate and see if it runs longer with the axle set horizontally.. :P
Movie on link below Just for you JCIMS!
2 minute gain, Vertical we get 10 minutes 30 seconds Wind Down.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRSVERTICALRotor2Test.wmv
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Ftests%2Fvertical.jpg&hash=7b4c77f31c2f42478c60f4f5b0d60e8229adeb89)
If all failes I think I will use this loose Rotor for a pulse motor ;D
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: yorkshireminer on January 13, 2008, 06:01:32 AM
Dear Friends,
it seems the old rumour mill has started to grind, I got this from the web site of Magnetic Power Inc. Mark Goldes is always putting puff pieces on his site about how his machine is just around the corner. But does he really know something we don't know.
Quote:-
A handful of videos that (briefly) appeared on the internet have stimulated a flurry of interest in magnetic motors that may be made to self-run, without any obvious outside source of input energy. At least one of them apparently worked well enough, for the 22 year old inventor to now be cooperating with a potential manufacturer, in order to market his device. While skeptics abound (and without independent laboratory confirmation, have excellent reason to be skeptical) these experiments may have opened a door to wider appreciation of an extremely important potential for rapidly reducing our dependency on fossil fuels.
Deep regards
Yorkshire Miner
That might be a reference to the Xpensif (spelling?) screw motor, which disappeared after saying he had some interest.
Quote from: Nicolas Roger on January 12, 2008, 06:00:23 PM
Dusty has finish the new design for the LaFonte Group with proper materials .
Still waiting for the right magnet size.
see attachement
I see there is video of this one up now, no running or AGW sync...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dRYz1fl98k
One last Wind Down post from me, I decided to spin it upto 3000 RPM before putting away the air line and surprising how fast the drop off is at between 3000-1000 RPM. Heres a graph, oh with Rotor back to normal on it's back :) .
Off to make some stator magnets out of summit hehe., I hope those bloody proper ones arrive tomorrow grrrrrrrrr
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Ftests%2F3000rpmgraph.jpg&hash=f1d4f0ef7d40c7ed021f7f619af7fa2fbc74348a)
Think I might of got my first latch while playing around with those small 6mm
I joined them together with a bit of tape and stuck them on the Stator bearings:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FSmini1.jpg&hash=fbb4f4a4017df45d8d6925497465806bd38dcd19)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Ftests%2Flatch1.jpg&hash=27f78fce1dd113e20505df4e33a93a29ddb50ddc)
Heres a short movie showing you what I mean.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRSlatch2.wmv
Cheers
Sean.
3000 RPM ?
Thats 180km/h at the border of the disc.
If the drop from 3000 to 1500 is due to aerodynamics
you can verify that by making a spindown without stator magnets.
Anyway, be careful, can be quite dramatic if the stuff
starts to disassemble with 50m/s.
rgds.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 13, 2008, 12:42:13 PM
Think I might of got my first latch while playing around with those small 6mm
Heres a short movie showing you what I mean.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRSlatch2.wmv
Cheers
Sean.
Yep it looks like it, nice.
Sean, on the wind down graph, what is the significance if any of the 648.2 rpm level line?
Thanks
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 13, 2008, 12:42:13 PM
Think I might of got my first latch while playing around with those small 6mm
I joined them together with a bit of tape and stuck them on the Stator bearings:
Heres a short movie showing you what I mean.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRSlatch2.wmv
Cheers
Sean.
Nice work
I managed to get AGW lock but I had to keep the rotor spinning manually at a near constant speed, if you can find the speed of the rotor while the stator was AGW you might have something to work with.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 13, 2008, 12:42:13 PM
Think I might of got my first latch while playing around with those small 6mm
I joined them together with a bit of tape and stuck them on the Stator bearings:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FSmini1.jpg&hash=fbb4f4a4017df45d8d6925497465806bd38dcd19)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Ftests%2Flatch1.jpg&hash=27f78fce1dd113e20505df4e33a93a29ddb50ddc)
Heres a short movie showing you what I mean.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRSlatch2.wmv
Cheers
Sean.
Wow, that look like it.
Something you can also try is to spin the rotor with your hand and spin the little one with your air machine, maybe the little one need to spin really fast to start turning on his own
Hi Sean,
I noticed that the two stator magnets that spin with the rotor have a tendency to put serious drag on the rotor. You might want to try the experiment without them and see if you can get in sync easier doing your reverse spin. Or try doing the reverse spin on multiple stator magnets.
Just trying to help,
Keep up the great work
Adam
Hi Sean,
Looking good so far...
I did some tests last night and found that if I move the stator magnet to just above the rotor magnets(held by hand) I could get it to turn AGW quite easily.
With the rotor in the correct place it is very difficult. Still waiting for correct magnets too.
I think the stators need a lot more mass to allow it to even out its rotation at the slower speeds.
The stator has nearly no inertia because of its small diameter, which means the slowest the rotor/stator may sync is quite a high speed.
Its interesting that you got a better run time running the device on the vertical, must be something to do with the number of contact surfaces that the balls in the bearings are in contact with.
I see you ordered the HDPE, so you need to re-order the Acetal (Delrin) instead, its not wasted as you can try both now.
I suppose when the design is more proven you could go for a top plate, bottom plate to hold bearing for rotor and stators, just like in a watch/clock.
Regards
Rob
ummmm interesting that if I jam one Stator magnet back so it cannot rotate I can get the Latch very easly.
I am not taking this too seriously till I get the correct Stator magnets, but thx for all the tips and input guys.
Another video too show what I mean ;D
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRSlatch3.wmv
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 13, 2008, 01:54:32 PM
ummmm interesting that if I jam one Stator magnet back so it cannot rotate I can get the Latch very easly.
I am not taking this too seriously till I get the correct Stator magnets, but thx for all the tips and input guys.
Another video too show what I mean ;D
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRSlatch3.wmv
Looking good. When do you get those new stators again?
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 13, 2008, 01:54:32 PM
ummmm interesting that if I jam one Stator magnet back so it cannot rotate I can get the Latch very easly.
I am not taking this too seriously till I get the correct Stator magnets, but thx for all the tips and input guys.
Another video too show what I mean ;D
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRSlatch3.wmv
If my ears are not deceiving me, it almost sounded like a brief speed-up when the stator synced AGW. Could you check that?
Quote from: TheOne
Something you can also try is to spin the rotor with your hand and spin the little one with your air machine, maybe the little one need to spin really fast to start turning on his own
Good idea, will go do that now.
Nice work!!
Are the other two stators doing anything for you at all??
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 13, 2008, 11:13:39 AM
Quote from: jcims on January 12, 2008, 03:49:03 PM
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 12, 2008, 02:15:24 PM
Well gawd that was boring filming that LOL ;D ;D
If you get bored again, you could settle another old debate and see if it runs longer with the axle set horizontally.. :P
Movie on link below Just for you JCIMS!
2 minute gain, Vertical we get 10 minutes 30 seconds Wind Down.
Yay! Now i just need to wrap the video with one of the old GI Joe cartoon 'now you know' public service announcements. :)
Thanks!
Hey guys, i had a theory about how this might work, but i do lack alot of knowledge in alot of areas so let me know what you think.
1. The magnets just get in sync doing the reverse spin on the stator and that keeps it moving.
2. The stator magnet when doing a reverse spin creates some kind of kinetic energy which passes through the rotor causing the magnets to be pushed along. Kinda like in a DC motor.
Well, those are passing thoughts. Would love to hear others thoughts as well.
Adam
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 13, 2008, 02:17:15 PM
Quote from: TheOne
Something you can also try is to spin the rotor with your hand and spin the little one with your air machine, maybe the little one need to spin really fast to start turning on his own
Good idea, will go do that now.
Hi
One thing that has not been determined is the Stator mags height to the center line heights of the Rotor mags.
CLaNZeR this might be something to work also while waiting for your mags. In all the work ups including Al description i do not recall this measurement.
Something to consider.
BTW....Looking Good C.
Bill
@CLaNZeR,
Your third video appears to have the "magneto kinetic Jetson damper" added? Would you care to elaborate? (Sorry if I missed it earlier.)
EDIT: Also seen in the fourth video as well. (Circled in image below.)
Hi Sean,
I have to agree with rotorhead, the stator closest to the cam does appear to speed up slightly for a very short time.
Its hard to tell.
I really am now looking forward to the results with the correct magnets.
I hope to have some N42 12mm OD x 6mm diametric disks by Monday. I am tempted to send you 3 so you can perform a better test.
With first class post you could have them by Tuesday if they turn up tomorrow.
Do you know when the K&J magnets were dispatched?
Regards
Rob
Well spinning the Stator magnet using Air certainly will stop me taking skin off my fingers!!!
Heres some latching with 1 Stator Fixed again, 1 Stator loose and of course the latcher!.
Also in the same video latching with just 1 Stator, again using the airline.
And yep it does sound to initially speed up when it latches as you can hear.
I will get the Tacho connected back up and see if we can catch it.
Got to go try eat this end, as had nothing all day LOL ;D ;D ;D
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRSlatch4.wmv
P.S Sorry the videos are so big but I want to try and keep them atleast 640 * 480 resolution, so you can see what is actually happening.
Nice job Sean!
I really think this motor will work with the proper magnet due to what i see from your video!
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 13, 2008, 02:37:37 PM
And yep it does sound to initially speed up when it latches as you can hear.
:o
Looks like the stator has a little play in it, and could be giving it a little extra energy at the right time.
SWEET!!! the only thing I'd say is that you might be working against the rotation of the rotor by squirting air in from that angle, perhaps from another direction it might be more productive?
Hello all. First post. I have been lurking here for the past 3 days until I had read through all of the posts. Pretty exciting stuff! I've also read most of the Steorn Whipmag posts - as I have been keeping track of that forum throughout the various rises and falls of adrenaline for quite awhile.
One thing bothers me - and maybe I'm being naive. There seems to be one measurement missing from the Al Whipmag specification: the strength of each of the magnets used. Wouldn't that play a major part in determining the speed at which the rotor would need to be rotating in order to get the effect? In Al's description he talks about the distance maintained between the rotor magnets and the stators. That would seem to be half of what is needed to determine the 'gear' stability between them - the other half would be the combined attraction/repulsion of the magnets involved at that distance. It would seem that stronger magnets might require more distance to achieve the same effect - and weaker magnets would require less.
Am I missing something? Do all magnets of a given composition and shape have the same magnetic characteristics? Aren't magnets sold by their degree of magnetization in addition to their size?
Sorry in advance for my naivete if it turns out that there is a key piece of knowledge that I am lacking.
Also, although it is premature for the moment, I would like to offer the potential of my (free) services as a database programmer once digitally collected data begins to become available. I can write software to parse and perform some digital signal processing on data that is collected and output graphs or whatever. I did this for drmike on the Steorn forum for his magnetic viscosity experiment and it was fun and satisfying.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 13, 2008, 02:37:37 PM
Well spinning the Stator magnet using Air certainly will stop me taking skin off my fingers!!!
Here's some latching with 1 Stator Fixed again, 1 Stator loose and of course the latcher!.
Also in the same video latching with just 1 Stator, again using the airline.
And yep it does sound to initially speed up when it latches as you can hear.
I will get the Tacho connected back up and see if we can catch it.
Got to go try eat this end, as had nothing all day LOL ;D ;D ;D
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRSlatch4.wmv
P.S Sorry the videos are so big but I want to try and keep them at least 640 * 480 resolution, so you can see what is actually happening.
That's amazing. I thought I could hear the acceleration in the first case and in the second it sounded just like an engine trying to pick up.
I've got Broadband (Zen Lite -Maximum download speed (Mbps) 8.0) and the video downloaded quite quickly for me.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 13, 2008, 02:37:37 PM
And yep it does sound to initially speed up when it latches as you can hear.
I will get the Tacho connected back up and see if we can catch it.
There will probably always be a small bit of an energy transfer from the stator to the rotor as it enters into the sync range, but in this case there is such a difference between masses i wouldn't expect that to be very large at all.
(Edit: Oh, and i think we all appreciate the quality of the videos...no apologies necessary!)
Funny how after hearing that clip i completely agree... I think you folks may actually have it hear... You know take just before Christmas... tpu was getting close a few other ideas were maturing and what do we have now... A dam near finished tpu base design and a possible perpetual mob ilium that has showed the most promise ive ever seen ... Whether there is a greater power out there or that power consists of many minds thinking in a positive direction.. somethings looking down on us. :)
Joe
Quote from: Localjoe on January 13, 2008, 03:32:31 PM
Funny how after hearing that clip i completely agree... I think you folks may actually have it here... You know, take just before Christmas... tpu was getting close a few other ideas were maturing and what do we have now... A damn near finished tpu base design and a possible perpetual mobilium that has showed the most promise I've ever seen ... Whether there is a greater power out there or that power consists of many minds thinking in a positive direction.. something's looking down on us. :)
Joe
Nikola Tesla probably. ::)
Hi CLaNZeR,
In the 2nd to last video:
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRSlatch2.wmv
I don't see the upper left stator sync\spin till the very end, and "right after" it does, your latching (opposite spin) stator seems to make things happen. In Al's video it looks like both outside stators spin all the time and, actually, all three, until Al spins the latching one backwards to speed things up. Could be that upper left stator may be vertically off by a hair ? Or ? Anyone ?
CLaNZeR,
Oh, other than that observation, I think congratulations are in order, you're on the right track !!! Maybe switch the outside stators and see if the bundle of rings are behaving differently, might just solve it when you get the actual one piece rings.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRSlatch4.wmv (http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRSlatch4.wmv)
Congratulations CLaNZeR, I heard an increase in the spin of the rotor. I think the award for first replication goes to you.
hi clanzer great stuff glad i goaded you into trying an alternative magnet. My short video posted previously does not show much but there is a definate change of tone when you anti gear the stator ,don?t forget i am using all the wrong measurements too lol..this may be easier to replicate than we think. i hope so..I can?t understand why the other replication does not achieve the anti gear , perhaps he needs to use air line or dremil to get the speed up.
There may be a simple formula behind all of this, all very exciting so far
Quote from: Rosphere on January 13, 2008, 02:28:18 PM
Your third video appears to have the "magneto kinetic Jetson damper" added? Would you care to elaborate? (Sorry if I missed it earlier.)
EDIT: Also seen in the fourth video as well. (Circled in image below.)
Hi Rosphere
Nothing to elaborate on really, just lathed down some aluminium as per specs by AL and in the plans by JDO.
I spaced them with about 4mm gap from the outside of the Rotor.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: MeggerMan on January 13, 2008, 02:30:18 PM
I really am now looking forward to the results with the correct magnets.
I hope to have some N42 12mm OD x 6mm diametric disks by Monday. I am tempted to send you 3 so you can perform a better test.
With first class post you could have them by Tuesday if they turn up tomorrow.
Do you know when the K&J magnets were dispatched?
Hi Rob
Thanks for the kind offer but as usual I will decline, got enough too keep me occupied and was not going to play with any other stator config until trying the original, but blame it on my mate Craigy grrrrrrrrrr LOL ;D
I ordered my magnets from KJ last Saturday I think as soon as I saw the Video, lest hope they have not put their outside USA orders to the back :(
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: Freezer on January 13, 2008, 02:49:23 PM
Looks like the stator has a little play in it, and could be giving it a little extra energy at the right time.
The Rotor is rock solid with not even 0.5mm play, I made sure of that :)
The Stators at the moment are just dropped into the 3mm RC bearings and do lift a bit. I will wait for the correct Stator magnets to arrive before securing proper as such!
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: geodan on January 13, 2008, 02:51:25 PM
SWEET!!! the only thing I'd say is that you might be working against the rotation of the rotor by squirting air in from that angle, perhaps from another direction it might be more productive?
Yep agree, but also atleast people cannot say the Air Line is speeding up the Rotor ;D like you pointed out it shoudl slow it down.
Quote from: schoolboy2000 on January 13, 2008, 03:48:43 PM
Hi CLaNZeR,
In the 2nd to last video:
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRSlatch2.wmv
I don't see the upper left stator sync\spin till the very end, and "right after" it does, your latching (opposite spin) stator seems to make things happen. In Al's video it looks like both outside stators spin all the time and, actually, all three, until Al spins the latching one backwards to speed things up. Could be that upper left stator may be vertically off by a hair ? Or ? Anyone ?
Hi SC2000
I have found so far by locking the top left magnet I can get it to sync better than if it is running.
No idea why, could be to do with the strange field these magnets create when joined together like they are. I will not even try to analyse it too much and would prefer too spend the brain work on the real stator magnets when they arrive.
One thing worth noting, moving any of the magnets 2mm wider or closer stops the syncing. I have tried too keep the Stators 4-5mm from edge of the Rotor.
Cheers
Sean.
Sean check your mail,,,
Quote from: Craigy on January 13, 2008, 04:35:33 PM
Sean check your mail,,,
Have done mate, and many thanks!!!
Cannot believe the video you sent and I think you should REALLY make it public mate.
Cheers
Sean.
Hey Guys,
Are you trying to make us nuts here? Well, Ok more nuts. Post it up. >:(
Craigy,
Share with the rest of your classmates ;) Loving the posts today !
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 13, 2008, 04:37:02 PM
Quote from: Craigy on January 13, 2008, 04:35:33 PM
Sean check your mail,,,
Have done mate, and many thanks!!!
Cannot believe the video you sent and I think you should REALLY make it public mate.
Cheers
Sean.
Does it work?
Craig, I don't want to be one of those intrusive types, but it would be appreciated if you make it public. We, or I anyways, would promise not harass you like poor Al was. Or at the least would it be possible to get a private copy for review?
Of course, its all up to you. ;)
You little devil Sean!
Don?t suppose it will do any harm , someone in the spdc claims to have achieved a 20 second constant speed run, sorry can?t say any more than that..
Quote from: Dyamios on January 13, 2008, 04:43:51 PM
Does it work?
Craig, I don't want to be one of those intrusive types, but it would be appreciated if you make it public. We, or I anyways, would promise not harass you like poor Al was. Or at the least would it be possible to get a private copy for review?
Of course, its all up to you. ;)
Before this gets out of hand, it was not a Video that involved a Rotor of any sort hehehe ;D
I could of dragged it on longer, but I am not like that hehehe
Quote from: Craigy on January 13, 2008, 04:44:29 PM
You little devil Sean!
Don?t suppose it will do any harm , someone in the spdc claims to have achieved a 20 second constant speed run, sorry can?t say any more than that..
OI watch ya NDA mate ;)
Some of us are free these days hehe
SPDC ? Shell Petroleum Development Company ?
" . . . but I can make it sync in non gear mode, and that is good. ( both are running CW or CCW)."
Svein
Hey Svein, any news from you?
Quote from: Craigy on January 13, 2008, 04:44:29 PM
You little devil Sean!
Don?t suppose it will do any harm , someone in the spdc claims to have achieved a 20 second constant speed run, sorry can?t say any more than that..
WhipMag or Orbo?
If WhipMag, please share
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 13, 2008, 04:45:30 PM
Quote from: Dyamios on January 13, 2008, 04:43:51 PM
Does it work?
Craig, I don't want to be one of those intrusive types, but it would be appreciated if you make it public. We, or I anyways, would promise not harass you like poor Al was. Or at the least would it be possible to get a private copy for review?
Of course, its all up to you. ;)
Before this gets out of hand, it was not a Video that involved a Rotor of any sort hehehe ;D
I could of dragged it on longer, but I am not like that hehehe
Haha, you spiked my hopes there for a second :P
Sorry to say no more playing with the magnets from me tonight.
The missus dissapeared off to a trade show early this morning and as usual I invaded the dining room with my toys as warmer than the workshop :)
I am lucky my compressor has an extenable hose:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fclanzcompress2.jpg&hash=21b1a7a1fef7b87f0f86c85bc1ecf902c3f43a33)
Well she back now and I had the orders to clear the table and wind the Air Line up and open a bottle of wine.
So still online but no more playing till tomorrow :(
Cheers
Sean.
The spdc is the steorn private developers group but the subject matter was the whip mag, which i suppose does not count as far as steorn are concerned. Still a 20 sec run is a little confirmation of what Sean has done and i can feel it in my rig. Just have to carry on playing
Quote from: Craigy on January 13, 2008, 05:01:29 PM
The spdc is the steorn private developers group but the subject matter was the whip mag, which i suppose does not count as far as steorn are concerned. Still a 20 sec run is a little confirmation of what Sean has done and i can feel it in my rig. Just have to carry on playing
The actual statement posted in the SPDC is:
"it was running at almost constant speed for 20 seconds, but it did not manage to gain speed, and then it slowed down a little bit, and then it ran down as normal. So my hope is to make it sync at a little higher speed and start to gain speed."
---------------------
I wanted to clarify precisely what the SPDC member said, because to me saying "almost constant speed" is not the same as saying "constant speed."
(Originally in this post, I identified the SPDC member who posted the remark, believing he would not mind. I don't know whether he would mind, but in retrospect I realize I was out of place to do it, so I've removed his name.)
Quote from: Craigy on January 13, 2008, 05:01:29 PM
The spdc is the steorn private developers group but the subject matter was the whip mag, which i suppose does not count as far as steorn are concerned. Still a 20 sec run is a little confirmation of what Sean has done and i can feel it in my rig. Just have to carry on playing
To avoid confusion over which Sean you are talking about and subsequent wild rumours it would be best to call this Sean, CLaNZer or the other Sean, McCarthy.
Also, SPDC stands for Steorn Private Developer's Club, not group. It is colloquially know as the SPUD which is a lot easier to say and to remember.
There is a virtual circumference ratio, by virtual i mean that the radius is extended with the airgap size. that distance is used to calculate the virtual circumference, then the stator circumference should be as close a match to the ratio 4 to 1, with that in mind i belive i need 12mm stator , and not the 15mm stators i made up out of 2 neos and plastic, think i might make 4 or 5 sets of stators with each one with a different diameter, from 10 mm up to 15 to get some thing nailed down
Quote from: Grimer on January 13, 2008, 05:12:04 PM
To avoid confusion over which Sean you are talking about and subsequent wild rumours it would be best to call this Sean, CLaNZer or the other Sean, McCarthy.
Nope dun't agree
I have always signed
Cheers Sean in these forums and it was only in the SPDC that I had to use SeanH because people were getting confused LOL ;D
Now I am a EX member of the SPDC like you Grimer :) , I do not think their rules apply in here.
Cheers
SEAN.
Over here I'm pretty sure when someone refers to Sean people know it's CLaNZer. Who the heck is this McCarthy fellow you speak of? ???
LOL, ;D
The CEO of steorn
Chief Evasion Officer 8)
Quote from: noncents on January 13, 2008, 05:31:04 PM
Chief Evasion Officer 8)
Chief Evade (the question) Officer ;D ;D ;D
Did you get a shipping notification from K&J? What does the order status show online? We're not impatient though. ;)
got an order confirmation on the 4th, no shipping confirmation tho :-[
Quote from: Craigy on January 13, 2008, 05:47:32 PM
got an order confirmation on the 4th, no shipping confirmtion tho :-[
I had a choice $17.00 no tracking or $65.00 with tracking. ummm I went for the $17.00 option.
Did anyone check out this video response?
At 3:00 the single ball bearing follows the magnetic field spinning underneath (as you would expect). Slowly increasing the rotating mag field, the ball bearing starts making these crazy, clover leaf shape gyrations, at a still higher speed it all of a sudden REVERSES direction. Counter-rotating field are key.
Therefore, on the magmotor there must be a certain speed at which the rotor must be spinning before the stators lock in sync. Maybe using different magnets for stators, you need a higher rotor rpm before they sync up??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqEd3KHuEHU
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 13, 2008, 05:48:54 PM
Quote from: Craigy on January 13, 2008, 05:47:32 PM
got an order confirmation on the 4th, no shipping confirmtion tho :-[
I had a choice $17.00 no tracking or $65.00 with tracking. ummm I went for the $17.00 option.
What a rip-off. They get a confirmation# every time they ship. What a load of bull-hockey to charge you $60 to access to your own confirm#. We need to get Neo to supply these. Never mind. Sorry for the distraction.
Quote from: noncents on January 13, 2008, 06:07:07 PM
What a rip-off. They get a confirmation# every time they ship. What a load of bull-hockey to charge you $60 to access to your own confirm#. We need to get Neo to supply these. Never mind. Sorry for the distraction.
It no hassle, at the end of the day I have tried alot of experiements trying to get OU or something close and waiting is part of the process.
No rush it will come when the time is right ;D
Never expect anything from anybody in life and you will never be dissapointed, that is a rule I have lived by for years ;D ;D
Quote from: noncents on January 13, 2008, 05:23:02 PM
Over here I'm pretty sure when someone refers to Sean people know it's CLaNZer. Who the heck is this McCarthy fellow you speak of? ???
Don't tempt me. ;D
Actually, the name on his birth certificate is Shaun - not to be confused with the othe Shaun who is down the pole as compared.....never mind. :-X
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 13, 2008, 04:19:47 PM
Quote from: Rosphere on January 13, 2008, 02:28:18 PM
Your third video appears to have the "magneto kinetic Jetson damper" added? Would you care to elaborate? (Sorry if I missed it earlier.)
...Nothing to elaborate on really, just lathed down some aluminium as per specs by AL and in the plans by JDO.
I spaced them with about 4mm gap from the outside of the Rotor.
Thank you, Sean.
Quote from: yaz on January 13, 2008, 05:50:39 PM
Did anyone check out this video response?
...you need a higher rotor rpm before they sync up??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqEd3KHuEHU
Good find. I saw that video a while ago. The counter rotation is interesting. Besides magnetism and rotation, I wonder if this counter rotation phenomenon is somehow connected. Thoughts of Schauberger. This auto synchronization happens without gearing of any sort to drag down the works,... in both devices actually. Thanks for the link.
Yes, you may be on to something: initial 'startup velocity' may be important. If a car battery becomes too old to move the starter fast enough to turn over the engine, you replace the starter battery, not the engine. What ever we use to start the rotor, and stators, spinning must be disengaged, like a car starter, when the motor reaches operating speed.
Quote from: ebswift on January 13, 2008, 02:20:37 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 13, 2008, 12:37:16 AM
Tomorrow will try to pull out the bearing from several hard drives. Can't wait until Monday. Does anyone have any experience in that?
The parts come apart fairly easily. If you want to disassemble the main drive motor to remove the coils and ring magnet, you drive or press the main shaft out of the base (the shaft is driven out from the base where you can see it in the middle of the motor in the bearings_024 image below). That doesn't take a great deal of force. Once that's open, if you work around the coils with a flathead screwdriver the coils will work loose and fall out. You normally only have to work the coils in a circle twice over. If you work the coils apart without touching the base you can do this without any scaring (not that scaring will matter too much in here; if you are too rough you can end up with a couple of sharp jaggies sticking up that may grab the top part when you re-assemble, but if necessary you can file those away without affecting smoothness when it's spinning).
At the ring magnet end, generally (depending on the age of the motor) you will see that it is contained inside a metal ring which is pressed onto the top of the motor assembly. With a pair of adjustable pliers/multigrips or a vice you can progressively squeeze that metal ring from a few angles and it will pop off without scaring anything. You can then gently knock the assembly back together and it will be a free-spinning bearing without the coils & magnets.
edit: here are the kinds of bits you end up retrieving (these are from older drives):
http://www.ebswift.com/WhipMag/Bearings_022.jpg
http://www.ebswift.com/WhipMag/Bearings_024.jpg
http://www.ebswift.com/WhipMag/Bearings_025.jpg
Thanks for the advice. Taking out these bearings was quite an ordeal. I have now several bearings of two different dimensions but they turned out to be metric and will not fit the recommended austenitic stainless steel socket-head cap screws, #4-40. I see the tracking tells me that the rc helicopter bearings will be here tomorrow and we'll see what their measurements will be. The rest of the pieces will be ready probably tomorrow afternoon. This is the situation with me at the moment.
@ Sean
Great job today, "playing"! LOL I can't wait to see when you receive the proper magnets.
My magnets should be here Monday...I hope. Machine shop should be finished Tuesday, with Jason's, Hank's and my Base and rotor. All materials to spec.
Today, went and purchased all brass machine screws, washers, rubber washers for spacing. I am not pleased with putting a 4-40 screw through the bearing with a 3/16" center, but we doubled check Al's info and that is what it calls for. The head of the screw hold down the inner wall of the bearing to the bottom washers and base. But an exact replication is what we want.
1/4 - 20 brass machine screw for the center rotor. Washer's, spacers, etc. Also picked up some glue on rubber feet for the corners.
I only lack 1/2" aluminum round for the dampers and must find that online. No store in my city has that size (of course :( ) 3/8" and 1/4" but no 1/2".
A few more days and we three will be hot on your tail with our replication. ;) :D ;D
Happy days,
Bruce
@Sean,
As I said, this counter rotation phenomena is interesting. Auto synchronization happens without gearing of any sort to drag down the works. It seems to happen, dare I say, naturally.
I wonder if it would be more 'natural' or stable if we were to free the stators up just a little bit more:
Suppose that the center shaft of your device extended further downward and was secured to another lower base plate. Add another bearing and allow your stator plate, (your old base plate,) to rotate on the same shaft as the rotor, but independently of it. Knock off the corners to make it a streamlined 'stator-ring.' Now your stator-ring is free to move about the rotor which is free to move about the shaft. (Just to be clear, the stators still spin freely on their individual shafts which are now secured to the new stator-ring instead of your old base plate.)
Just a thought. :-\
So now we've had three replicators (Vibrator on Steorn, RB on Steorn, and CLaNZer here) report they are seeing the AGW lock effect. (But don't have acceleration yet - mainly due to waiting on the right type of magnets) I think it would be worthwhile for you guys to look at what AL was saying a couple of weeks ago when he first discovered the lock. It's on pages 5,6 & 7 of this thread in the Steorn forum.
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=5
He talks about the need for the dampners, and adjustments he needed to make. With a couple of slight variations in some of the replications you may need to go through a similar type of process to get the same effect as him.
Good Luck
JAG
Quote from: btentzer on January 13, 2008, 08:12:29 PM
I only lack 1/2" aluminum round for the dampers and must find that online. No store in my city has that size (of course :( ) 3/8" and 1/4" but no 1/2".
I happen to have a couple feet. How much do you need? PM me the particulars.
I think I purchased a three foot rod at The Home Depot last year at this time for my Maggie Motor. Alas, she broke my heart so long ago. One of you blokes better make an honest woman out of her. Don't forget to share the honeymoon photos. ;)
Shoot. Timed out. Now I have to type it all again.
I want to suggest a test for you non-armchair experimenters. In this test you would attach a belt from the test motor to an alternator instead of using the Judson dampers. The alternator's field coil should be limited via a linear potentiometer such that if the potentiometer was turned completely off - the alternator would have nothing to work against - therefore allowing the alternator to spin freely with almost no drag.
There would be a volt meter attached, in series, between the potentiometer and the alternator, showing how much juice was being sent to the alternators coil.
There would also be a volt meter attached to the output of the alternator, showing how much juice was being produced by it.
There would be something to dynamically gauge the current rpm of the rotor.
The Whipmag motor would be started while the potentiometer was preventing any juice from getting to the alternator's field coil - so it would just be spinning freely. Once the third stator 'caught', the pot would be turned up just until acceleration stabilized. When the other two stators were stopped and as acceleration commenced again, the pot would be adjusted until the rotor speed stabilized.
Testing would involve adjusting the potentiometer, to cause the rotor to spin at different rpm, in stages. At each - the current volts both being consumed and generated by the alternator would be recorded along with the rotor speed. This would continue between the upper and lower limits of the effect and graphed - hopefully showing a sweetspot, in rpm, where the most power is produced.
Quote from: blue_energy on January 13, 2008, 08:47:14 PM
In this test you would attach a belt from the test motor to an alternator instead of using the Judson dampers.
...allowing the alternator to spin freely with almost no drag.
Are you thinking of the Judson dampers as a drag on the rotor like a belt drive?
I could be wrong but I think the dampers function is to help the stator's inertia to carry it through a sticky spot when the rotor reaches a critical point, to help accelerate the rotor and stator(s), not drag the rotor down like a belt would.
A belt or some other PTO will need to be added later, but this baby is still in the delivery room with momma and it is too early to break-out the cigars. ;)
Quote from: Rosphere on January 13, 2008, 08:46:51 PM
Quote from: btentzer on January 13, 2008, 08:12:29 PM
I only lack 1/2" aluminum round for the dampers and must find that online. No store in my city has that size (of course :( ) 3/8" and 1/4" but no 1/2".
I happen to have a couple feet. How much do you need? PM me the particulars.
I think I purchased a three foot rod at The Home Depot last year at this time for my Maggie Motor. Alas, she broke my heart so long ago. One of you blokes better make an honest woman out of her. Don't forget to share the honeymoon photos. ;)
@ Rosphere
Thank you for the offer. I sent you a pm with the details! ;D I don't need much. LOL
Maggie broke your heart, but perhaps the OCAL will put it back together again.
Thanks as always,
Bruce
@Clanzer
you wouldn't happen to have a slow-motion camera?
or access to camera with a fast shutter speed to see the alignment when the syncing happens?
Quote from: crash_uni8 on January 13, 2008, 09:26:39 PM
@Clanzer
you wouldn't happen to have a slow-motion camera?
or access to camera with a fast shutter speed to see the alignment when the syncing happens?
Hi-speed cameras generally cost quite a bit of cash. There are some types of camcorders that you can force to go into 60fps as opposed to 29.97/30, but this feature isn't generally supported in typical household cameras by sony or the like...
But you never know... perhaps Clanzer does have one ;)
Quote from: Rosphere on January 13, 2008, 09:15:03 PM
Quote from: blue_energy on January 13, 2008, 08:47:14 PM
In this test you would attach a belt from the test motor to an alternator instead of using the Judson dampers.
...allowing the alternator to spin freely with almost no drag.
Are you thinking of the Judson dampers as a drag on the rotor like a belt drive?
I could be wrong but I think the dampers function is to help the stator's inertia to carry it through a sticky spot when the rotor reaches a critical point, to help accelerate the rotor and stator(s), not drag the rotor down like a belt would.
A belt or some other PTO will need to be added later, but this baby is still in the delivery room with momma and it is too early to break-out the cigars. ;)
Sorry Rosphere too lazy to find the link, but somewhere in the development thread over at Steorn (I think about page 5 or 6) Al discusses the need for the Judson Dampers. Prior to using these, the device once "in sync" the stator would accelerate up to over 8000 rpm's, become unstable and drop out of sync. The dampers provide drag on the stator, to slow the acceleration and stator speed. They don't help accelerate the rotor and stator, they do the opposite and keep it "balanced" and in sync. This is what I find most interesting. Other ways can be found to provide that drag/control mechanism that can generate usable work.
JAG
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 13, 2008, 05:09:52 AM
@All
I am still not clear on whether the JDO specifications are exactly what Al has built or not ?
Can anyone clarify this, it seems a grey area, or did i miss a post regarding this?
Dean
Hi Dean,
I just asked about Al Confirming my blueprints yesterday. Here's the posted response about it:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg69936.html#msg69936
There was only one minor discrepancy with the Rotor's shaft not being a bolt, but Al mentioned on the Steorn forum that he was using a screw axle when he originally got it working.
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 13, 2008, 02:37:37 PM
Well spinning the Stator magnet using Air certainly will stop me taking skin off my fingers!!!
Heres some latching with 1 Stator Fixed again, 1 Stator loose and of course the latcher!.
Also in the same video latching with just 1 Stator, again using the airline.
And yep it does sound to initially speed up when it latches as you can hear.
I will get the Tacho connected back up and see if we can catch it.
Got to go try eat this end, as had nothing all day LOL ;D ;D ;D
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRSlatch4.wmv
P.S Sorry the videos are so big but I want to try and keep them atleast 640 * 480 resolution, so you can see what is actually happening.
Way to go!
I initially thought I heard the rotor accelerating in your earlier video but it is VERY refreshing to see a second person get this thing going! Keep up the great work! Soon I'll be in on all the fun as well ;)
I also bought a decent Tachometer from eBay so that I can take RPM measurements once I get my rig up and running.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110213324093&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:MOTORS:1123
God Bless,
Jason O
Hi Jason,
very nice job on the drawings!
In my opinion Sean's version seems both more stable and flexible adjustment wise... which could be very important when it comes to fine tweaking...
I think that most of the difference is in the base plate... do you have any plans of doing a drawing based on Sean's model??
Thanks
Geordan
Hi geodan,
I absolutely plan to build an adjustable model for further testing. I'm only sticking to the original model strictly for replication and validation reasons. The next version I make will be much more flexible to experiment with and optimize the design.
God Bless,
Jason O
QuoteSorry Rosphere too lazy to find the link, but somewhere in the development thread over at Steorn (I think about page 5 or 6) Al discusses the need for the Judson Dampers. Prior to using these, the device once "in sync" the stator would accelerate up to over 8000 rpm's, become unstable and drop out of sync. The dampers provide drag on the stator, to slow the acceleration and stator speed. They don't help accelerate the rotor and stator, they do the opposite and keep it "balanced" and in sync. This is what I find most interesting. Other ways can be found to provide that drag/control mechanism that can generate usable work.
JAG
Exactly, JAG - I read the same thing. All suspicions are suspect at this point ;D but I suspect that the reason that Al's motor quits above 8,000 rpm on the stators is that the stator bearings can't keep up with the rotor and the motor falls out of 'gear' phase.
geodan, Jdo
I'm pretty sure Sean's model originated with CAD files of some sort as he uses his CNC machine to crank the pieces out. In that sense the drawings already exist.
Here's the base:
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/base1.jpg
Quote from: blue_energy on January 13, 2008, 10:39:02 PM
QuoteSorry Rosphere too lazy to find the link, but somewhere in the development thread over at Steorn (I think about page 5 or 6) Al discusses the need for the Judson Dampers. Prior to using these, the device once "in sync" the stator would accelerate up to over 8000 rpm's, become unstable and drop out of sync. The dampers provide drag on the stator, to slow the acceleration and stator speed. They don't help accelerate the rotor and stator, they do the opposite and keep it "balanced" and in sync. This is what I find most interesting. Other ways can be found to provide that drag/control mechanism that can generate usable work.
JAG
Exactly, JAG - I read the same thing. All suspicions are suspect at this point ;D but I suspect that the reason that Al's motor quits above 8,000 rpm on the stators is that the stator bearings can't keep up with the rotor and the motor falls out of 'gear' phase.
I agree. Another thought (helped by someone at Steorn forum) is that the Dampners are magnetic "sinks" which could result in a change of temperature. As we know even a slight change in temperature can be used to create usable work via a Sterling.
I'd be interested to see one of the replicators do a temperature test comparison of the Dampers pre and post run.
JAG
QuoteA belt or some other PTO will need to be added later, but this baby is still in the delivery room with momma and it is too early to break-out the cigars.
@Rosphere - You're right, of course. I'm just getting the idea out there now - because by tomorrow at this time it may well no longer be pre-mature.
Another replication from ZeroFosillFuel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHy_OeS8qVE
But his stator magnet are way to big in my opinion :)
Quote from: blue_energy on January 13, 2008, 10:53:08 PM
QuoteA belt or some other PTO will need to be added later, but this baby is still in the delivery room with momma and it is too early to break-out the cigars.
@Rosphere - You're right, of course. I'm just getting the idea out there now - because by tomorrow at this time it may well no longer be pre-mature.
Blue I set up a thread for all us armchair enthusiasts (I really wish I was ready to build this thing) that has a list of tests we'd like to see. Of course it's based on the theory that several replicators get this up and running. That way CLaNZer can say. I'll do endurance testing for example and everyone else can do something different and not re-invent the wheel (pun intended) every time.
Any other ideas you want to share?
JAG
Quote from: blue_energy on January 13, 2008, 10:39:02 PM
QuoteSorry Rosphere too lazy to find the link, but somewhere in the development thread over at Steorn (I think about page 5 or 6) Al discusses the need for the Judson Dampers. Prior to using these, the device once "in sync" the stator would accelerate up to over 8000 rpm's, become unstable and drop out of sync. The dampers provide drag on the stator, to slow the acceleration and stator speed. They don't help accelerate the rotor and stator, they do the opposite and keep it "balanced" and in sync. This is what I find most interesting. Other ways can be found to provide that drag/control mechanism that can generate usable work.
JAG
Exactly, JAG - I read the same thing. All suspicions are suspect at this point ;D but I suspect that the reason that Al's motor quits above 8,000 rpm on the stators is that the stator bearings can't keep up with the rotor and the motor falls out of 'gear' phase.
I remember reading in a Steorn thread that after Al got the machine going as always he started a second stator going AGW with RPM's in excess of 12,000. Al hasn't posted in a while(black helicopters??). This was in one of his latter posts.
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 13, 2008, 10:37:56 PM
Hi geodan,
I absolutely plan to build an adjustable model for further testing. I'm only sticking to the original model strictly for replication and validation reasons. The next version I make will be much more flexible to experiment with and optimize the design.
God Bless,
Jason O
Thanks Jason!,
Since I will not be in the "first wave" of replicators I think that I need to set my sights on flexibility to be able to adjust as many variables as possible... I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with...
Noncets suggests that Sean might already have drawings for his base so maybe he'll be sharing those as well?
Thanks very much guys!
geodan
Just looked at that one from zero, He needs to cover the rotor in cling film or something to stop the air flow. He'll get a large fan/drag effect from his design.
Quote from: iadcw on January 13, 2008, 11:05:50 PM
Quote from: blue_energy on January 13, 2008, 10:39:02 PM
QuoteSorry Rosphere too lazy to find the link, but somewhere in the development thread over at Steorn (I think about page 5 or 6) Al discusses the need for the Judson Dampers. Prior to using these, the device once "in sync" the stator would accelerate up to over 8000 rpm's, become unstable and drop out of sync. The dampers provide drag on the stator, to slow the acceleration and stator speed. They don't help accelerate the rotor and stator, they do the opposite and keep it "balanced" and in sync. This is what I find most interesting. Other ways can be found to provide that drag/control mechanism that can generate usable work.
JAG
Exactly, JAG - I read the same thing. All suspicions are suspect at this point ;D but I suspect that the reason that Al's motor quits above 8,000 rpm on the stators is that the stator bearings can't keep up with the rotor and the motor falls out of 'gear' phase.
I remember reading in a Steorn thread that after Al got the machine going as always he started a second stator going AGW with RPM's in excess of 12,000. Al hasn't posted in a while(black helicopters??). This was in one of his latter posts.
I read that too, but details were sparse. Lets get the replicators to get it working first before we make them double it :)
I have no doubt the replications will go just fine, and then adjustments will be tried and improvements made.
I also think it will have a fairly large latitude of operation( magnet size, rotor and stator size, spacing, etc.).
If the rotor is moving approximately 1000rpm and the stator @ 5000rpm. What coil configuration would work best, on the rotor or stator, to generate current.
I know - I'm jumping ahead here - But I'm an optimist.
Quote from: TheOne on January 13, 2008, 11:04:36 PM
Another replication from ZeroFosillFuel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHy_OeS8qVE
But his stator magnet are way to big in my opinion :)
IMO, that vid is a joke. How can he say it's a replication when it clearly isn't even close???
WTF??? The mags aren't even close. I could go on and on but I think you get the picture.
I ordered some magnets from K&J today and will hopefully get my bearings and CNC
work done this week or next. This is gonna be fun.
Brad
Quote from: TheOne on January 13, 2008, 11:04:36 PM
Another replication from ZeroFosillFuel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHy_OeS8qVE
But his stator magnet are way to big in my opinion :)
You know....
I really don't understand how someone can call themselves a replicator of something when they don't even follow the build instructions! It's like someone trying to replicate a car engine without having a clue how it works..... Ok, I'm not going to start ranting.....
???
- Jason O
Quote from: geodan on January 13, 2008, 11:09:51 PM
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 13, 2008, 10:37:56 PM
Hi geodan,
I absolutely plan to build an adjustable model for further testing. I'm only sticking to the original model strictly for replication and validation reasons. The next version I make will be much more flexible to experiment with and optimize the design.
God Bless,
Jason O
Thanks Jason!,
Since I will not be in the "first wave" of replicators I think that I need to set my sights on flexibility to be able to adjust as many variables as possible... I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with...
Noncets suggests that Sean might already have drawings for his base so maybe he'll be sharing those as well?
Thanks very much guys!
geodan
Sean's setup is pretty nice, but when it gets down to the wire and you want to adjust things more precisely, loosening and tightening the stator mags and moving around won't give the best control, even though it is flexible. The design I have in mind would be very similar to what Sean has, but only I would use screw-adjustable stator mountings so that I could not only precisely move the stators (both circumferentially and radially), but I could make these adjustments while the motor is running. That way we can quickly fine tune it and see what positions work and which don't.
I don't have any 3D models of this drawn up just yet but In my mind, I picture something like a linear gear track running around the circumference of the base so that the stators can be positioned with the turn of a screw. Also, the stator magnets could be mounted onto a movable stage to allow them to be adjusted radially (also with a screw).
Once we have a good understanding of what makes this work best, I would like to try ti gear the rotor and one or more stators together to see how that may perform. But that would come much later after we have a better understanding of the latch effect.
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 14, 2008, 12:08:30 AM
Quote from: geodan on January 13, 2008, 11:09:51 PM
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 13, 2008, 10:37:56 PM
Hi geodan,
I absolutely plan to build an adjustable model for further testing. I'm only sticking to the original model strictly for replication and validation reasons. The next version I make will be much more flexible to experiment with and optimize the design.
God Bless,
Jason O
Thanks Jason!,
Since I will not be in the "first wave" of replicators I think that I need to set my sights on flexibility to be able to adjust as many variables as possible... I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with...
Noncets suggests that Sean might already have drawings for his base so maybe he'll be sharing those as well?
Thanks very much guys!
geodan
Sean's setup is pretty nice, but when it gets down to the wire and you want to adjust things more precisely, loosening and tightening the stator mags and moving around won't give the best control, even though it is flexible. The design I have in mind would be very similar to what Sean has, but only I would use screw-adjustable stator mountings so that I could not only precisely move the stators (both circumferentially and radially), but I could make these adjustments while the motor is running. That way we can quickly fine tune it and see what positions work and which don't.
I don't have any 3D models of this drawn up just yet but In my mind, I picture something like a linear gear track running around the circumference of the base so that the stators can be positioned with the turn of a screw. Also, the stator magnets could be mounted onto a movable stage to allow them to be adjusted radially (also with a screw).
Once we have a good understanding of what makes this work best, I would like to try ti gear the rotor and one or more stators together to see how that may perform. But that would come much later after we have a better understanding of the latch effect.
God Bless,
Jason O
Here Here Jason Here Here ;D
B.
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 14, 2008, 12:02:31 AM
Quote from: TheOne on January 13, 2008, 11:04:36 PM
Another replication from ZeroFosillFuel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHy_OeS8qVE
But his stator magnet are way to big in my opinion :)
You know....
I really don't understand how someone can call themselves a replicator of something when they don't even follow the build instructions! It's like someone trying to replicate a car engine without having a clue how it works..... Ok, I'm not going to start ranting.....
???
- Jason O
Yeah, it just looks like he cobbled together a scrap heap lawn mower paying no attention to details and called it a replication, IMO the whipmag has a lot of subtle coincidental detail going for it, but this guy just threw all those good bits out the window...
Quote from: TheOne on January 13, 2008, 11:04:36 PM
Another replication from ZeroFosillFuel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHy_OeS8qVE
But his stator magnet are way to big in my opinion :)
He can't get it to work so he accuses others of cheating. >:(
QuoteBlue I set up a thread for all us armchair enthusiasts (I really wish I was ready to build this thing) that has a list of tests we'd like to see. Of course it's based on the theory that several replicators get this up and running. That way CLaNZer can say. I'll do endurance testing for example and everyone else can do something different and not re-invent the wheel (pun intended) every time.
Any other ideas you want to share?
JAG
Hi JAG,
I guess that if I had my druthers (which, as a bystander, I have no right to expect) I'd procede in this order:
1. Replicate the original.
2. Generate some idea of the magnitude of apparent OU that we're talking about.
3. Determine whether that energy is being generated by depleting something else.
4. If it's not - determine optimum setup parameters.
#1 will be obvious if it occurs.
#2 could be covered a number of different ways, but my earlier suggestion would do an medium precise job at very low expense.
#3 - the two obvious candidates are electrostatics and demagnetization. Omnibus seems to have a handle on showing that electrostatics are not involved with his Faraday cage idea. Proving or disproving that demagnetization is involved would require something like measuring the gauss of the magnets before and after; calculating how much energy is being generated (potentially using my previous idea); and determining whether the energy produced could be accounted for in lost gauss. Probably this would require a fairly long run, or series of runs, to determine. And, even then, it would only give you a ballpark estimate since bearing and wind friction and etc. would account for some too. But - if there is no apparent loss in gauss and a significant amount of energy produced, there would be a point beyond which measurement error could no longer account for the results (which is what we're all hoping for...).
Overall, I vote for quick and dirty experiments to begin with - just something to tell us if "we're" on the right track and generally where the mysteries lie. More precise experiments can be done later if it turns out that the true answer is somewhere in the lack-o-precision slop of the originals. We'll know generally where to look.
#4 - Somewhere, much further, down the line - and presuming that the ballpark experiments pan out - I'd like it if more precise and complicated tests were done to determine the optimum setup. These might be something that those of us who are intensely interested, but not especially mechanically inclined (like me) can help with. There are lots of us here who have skills and knowledge that could be tapped.
For instance, a project to attempt to determine the optimum relationship of magnet gauss, magnet separation, and rotor diameter and mass. Or the optimum relationship between rotor circumference and stator circumference. Or (potentially) the optimum relationship between the circumferences of the first two stators to the third. All of these could benefit from the generation of more particular and precise data which could be managed by a database and custom software to make use of it.
Jason
That makes all the sense in the world, adjusting those parameters on the fly will save a lot of time, I think that it will make it much easier to sync up more and more stators one at a time so that they can do more of the work as opposed to dragging the rotor down...
geodan
QuoteIf the rotor is moving approximately 1000rpm and the stator @ 5000rpm. What coil configuration would work best, on the rotor or stator, to generate current.
@iadcw
I think that rather than attach a static coil, an alternator should be used - since then the resistance can be scaled dynamically and experimentally to determine the optimum value without changing the hardware.
"Another replication from ZeroFosillFuel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHy_OeS8qVE
But his stator magnet are way to big in my opinion"
I am ashamed of ZFF for his statement as well as his ability to build a replication of that design. His replication is missing some key elements and is far from what I would consider a fair replication. It was disrespectful and I would hope that he was a fair enough person to recant his video as well as his statement until he builds a proper replication showing the results.
I think the guy over at Z.F.F. will be feeling like a ass by the end of the week...What a piece of junk...Not even close..
Quote from: blue_energy on January 14, 2008, 12:36:51 AM
QuoteIf the rotor is moving approximately 1000rpm and the stator @ 5000rpm. What coil configuration would work best, on the rotor or stator, to generate current.
@iadcw
I think that rather than attach a static coil, an alternator should be used - since then the resistance can be scaled dynamically and experimentally to determine the optimum value without changing the hardware.
A good candidate for something like this would be those small DC fan motors that run on two AA batteries. They can actually pump out quite a bit of power if you spin them fast enough, though I wouldn't use them to get any absolute performance measurements. Later when you are ready to build a real generator for this thing, there are lots of good designs out there for low/no drag generators. One of the best is the Gramme Generator. It was manufactured back in the 1860s but was later replaced with the ones we use now.
God Bless,
Jason O
Today i saw this video...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zRN-KCqlBxI&feature=related (http://youtube.com/watch?v=zRN-KCqlBxI&feature=related)
Al was taught how to do that....and i can do it too.
The thing is that it is someone else's work...and no permission was given..
I have lots of those videos, but i would not post them because the person who showed me is my friend...who did all the work himself.
What a shame we cannot trust people with our ideas >:(
This is what Al said "These inventions are yours; I will never 'steal' them or make public without your consent!"
What a shame... ???
Scotty.
The Zero Fossil Fuels guy didnt even atempt to make a similar device. Why dont I just put a stuffed duck on a turntable (with a magnet in its mouth for good measure) to disprove Al's video!! :D
Additional thoughts:
Consider switching it to a higher gear.
Look at small stacked laminates from/for HF and HF-wideband transformer work. Some well made grain oriented silicon steel.
That's what you might want to consider for the Judson dampers. It seems it's all about gating, shear, and polarization.
Not only do you gain control of that, but the speed/timing of the interaction (and inherent hysteresis considerations) as well.
Think it through.
You can even partially wrap the laminate, like cupping a magnet, to direct and control these polarized field considerations.
Even if it fails, especially if it fails spectacularly, it teaches much.
Then the way of modifying the structure to accept other configurations and magnets might seem a bit more clear.
My immediate thoughts are , if it fails, with vertically oriented stacked laminates....is that the rotating magnets on the main disk, require a damper that does not impose such a polarity and field generation upon their native fields, as the stacked laminates will attempt to impose order via interaction. In that case, the round damper would obviously be important. No directionality on that orientation would be key. Then, attempt a round stacked laminate damper in the horizontal orientation.
Either attempt, once again, will teach you much. Attempt both.
Quote from: plasmasd on January 14, 2008, 03:41:47 AM
The Zero Fossil Fuels guy didnt even atempt to make a similar device. Why dont I just put a stuffed duck on a turntable (with a magnet in its mouth for good measure) to disprove Al's video!! :D
Let's focus on more constructive comments rather that flaming others.
We might need them for future topics.
Dear All
Due to reasons beyond his control Al is unable to continue with this lark please return to our regular programming ....
Just Joking !!! (I think)
???
Dean
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 14, 2008, 12:08:30 AM
Sean's setup is pretty nice, but when it gets down to the wire and you want to adjust things more precisely, loosening and tightening the stator mags and moving around won't give the best control, even though it is flexible. The design I have in mind would be very similar to what Sean has, but only I would use screw-adjustable stator mountings so that I could not only precisely move the stators (both circumferentially and radially), but I could make these adjustments while the motor is running. That way we can quickly fine tune it and see what positions work and which don't...
Good idea, Jason. You know, the base of these things make great sounding boards. Even in the videos we can hear the acceleration or deceleration of the device. We hardly need the tachometer, but it is good to have. Adjusting on the fly is a great way to find the optimum distances and angles. However, as a metastable FE device, I fear that we may need more investment than this to keep it going.
What I mean is that we may need to invest in, or borrow, some high speed cameras. This auto synchronization of stator angles without need of any sort of gearing is where, I believe, the magic and metastability lie. It is the only thing that makes this design unique and promising. I wonder what the stators are doing with respect to the rotor magnets during an acceleration phase. It would be nice to be able to record real time data of the positions of the rotor and stators. Now that I think of it, we would not need the camera if we had good, synchronized position/time data.
Let us say that we have 8 magnets on the rotor, as with he current design. I want to know at what angle the driving stator makes at exactly those 8 positions when the rotor is accelerating, decelerating, and gradually loaded to control an acceleration run up. This way we can both understand more about exactly how this design works and start to design control mechanisms to accompany the PTO, so that we do not kill the golden goose when we want to tap some power. Blue_energy had some ideas about how to do this in an earlier post.
...off to work now. :( :)
Sorry if that comment came across as negative, I just think it hillarious that when you go through Al's material and read that an alignment difference in millimeters between the rotating stators and the rotor made the device "work as shown," that a device that does not resemble the original is being used to discount it. Al's device may very well be fake, or achieving it's rotation as a result of high EMF in his basement, but until someone builds a device exactly like the original, no one can claim whether it works or doesn't.
Quote from: robbie47 on January 14, 2008, 06:23:46 AM
Quote from: plasmasd on January 14, 2008, 03:41:47 AM
The Zero Fossil Fuels guy didnt even atempt to make a similar device. Why dont I just put a stuffed duck on a turntable (with a magnet in its mouth for good measure) to disprove Al's video!! :D
Let's focus on more constructive comments rather that flaming others.
We might need them for future topics.
Yep, like the "Redneck OU channel"! Surely if ZPE wants to have his own mythbusters channel (and not the redneck mythbusters channel) he's gotta do better than ferrite magnets & superglue where the spec required neo's, fairly tight tolerances, tested air gaps, AND the alloy dampers. Sorry, but flaming that particular video is nothing but mandatory - I'd expect nothing less.
edit: or perhaps I've overlooked the attempt at comedy?
Quote from: Rosphere on January 14, 2008, 07:05:47 AM
Good idea, Jason. You know, the base of these things make great sounding boards. Even in the videos we can hear the acceleration or deceleration of the device. We hardly need the tachometer, but it is good to have.
You can make a poor man's tach using your sound card, an audio transformer and a CdS photocell (or phototransistor only, no transformer). Radio Shack has the parts:
# Audio Transformer (8:1000) Radio Shack (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103254 Part# 273-1380)
# CdS Photoresistor Radio Shack (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062590 Part# 276-1657)
Here is the circuit:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg208.imageshack.us%2Fimg208%2F9783%2Fcircuitjb8.png&hash=507d072e15bef162cd394800ee6d30db4306be6f)
You can run one of these circuits on each the left and right channel to monitor the RPMs on both pieces of equipment. The output is recorded as a .wav file and you can either use Sonic Visualizer (www.sonicvisualizer.org) or some simple .wav file processing to get the RPMs back out into useful data.
Hello fellow seekers.
Got my magnets today 14th ordered from KJMagnetics. I'm in Sweden. Orderdate was January 5th.
Been following the developments since it was posted on PESwiki. Was very convinced to attempt make a duplicate....now undecided on the matter to make a duplicate or not, as many competent people seem to be on it. Everybody is busy so am I .
Does it strike anyone as odd that no other video of a running machine has been released after the initial one ?
With the thirst of information out there - and the expressed intent to make this Open Source - why no more videos of running machines ?
I guess we all will know within the next 7 days.
Hi Xpress,
I was about to go out this afternoon and discuss acquiring the parts with the help of a local hobbyist shop (he supplies remote control helicopters etc) I share your concerns regarding the validity of the claims for the same reasons. I am starting to wonder if Al pulled that video because he didn't want to go through with the deception. Though it got out of control and he decided to run with it. Now He seems to becoming evasive after trying to hint that there was nothing in it and that is was just an anomoly etc etc etc... this wasn't enough of a wet towel to slow the more excitable amongst us and now he's probably wondering what to do next. Probably expecting that no one will successfully replicate and then will probably say that he can no longer start it up again then let things die off....
Having said that (large amount of supposing) I still might just meander down to the toy shop and get some direction as to where to get the parts for this fascinating toy .. I love a good puzzle.
Cheers,
Dean
Whether this is BS or not. Magnets have POWER, period. I believe a magnet motor is
possible and that's all I need to go on. I'm sure it's been done before, but got suppressed
like most free energy inventions. I've been dabbling in mag motors for years. Haven't had
much success, but I still believe and that's all I need, and I do believe I'll eventually get it.
I will admit, that after watching that vid and being here I'm even more motivated and determined to get this going.
Never say die.
Brad
Brad,
I hate to admit it .. but i can't stop believing either Brad.
Have my fingers crossed too for this one.
Cheers,
Dean
Another update from me, excuse the squeeky voice on the movie, still fighting off this damm cold.
Playing today while STILL waiting for the correct stator magnets I found that the best speed to get them rear stator ro latch is 320 RPM any speed over this seems to make it very diffcult.
Then if you spin the rotor over 800RPM it looses sync.
I am going to spend today using a airline too hold it at a constant rpm and then release the air and log some data too see if have any small speed increases or THE BUMP as they call it.
But if there is a knock on the door I will drop it all because it may be my magnets ;D ;D
Another Video to show what I mean, sorry about the quality but bloody hard to film and play at the same time.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeR320rpm800rpm.wmv
Not taking this experimenting too serious until I get the correct Magnets.
Cheers
Sean.
DROPS AIRGUN they have just arrived ;D ;D ;D
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Ftheyarehere.jpg&hash=cfe4ae55a2fa1eed85127450424b37023397e75c)
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 14, 2008, 09:10:59 AM
DROPS AIRGUN they have just arrived ;D ;D ;D
WooooHoooo. I'm sending in my MO for my mags today. Have fun.
And now I'm off to work and have no internet :'(
Something to look forward to when I get home.
Brad
Good luck CLaNZeR, we're all keeping our fingers crossed...and everything else!
Legs, Arms, Fingers and Toes crossed . Good luck !!
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 14, 2008, 09:10:59 AM
DROPS AIRGUN they have just arrived ;D ;D ;D
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Ftheyarehere.jpg&hash=cfe4ae55a2fa1eed85127450424b37023397e75c)
YES!! go ClaNZeR go!!!
Mine arrived too!!!
Bloodly big box tho, don?t they have envelopes in the states?
Quote from: Craigy on January 14, 2008, 10:57:37 AM
Mine arrived too!!!
Bloodly big box tho, don?t they have envelopes in the states?
Sure, if you don't mind your magnets getting a few free rides across the pond until someone notices a shiny package stuck to the ceiling of the cargo bay. :P
Good Luck ClaNZeR and Craigy!!
Keeping everything crossed here!
Quote from: xpress on January 14, 2008, 08:26:02 AM
Hello fellow seekers.
....................... . . .
Does it strike anyone as odd that no other video of a running machine has been released after the initial one ?
With the thirst of information out there - and the expressed intent to make this Open Source - why no more videos of running machines ?
I guess we all will know within the next 7 days.
I have, directly, myself..once been visited in my office by a self professed 'member of the US defence industry', for making explicit references to the familial history of the current US presidency and similar information. This, on a forum where I was in good standing for about two years, with over 1500 posts..and the forum was mainly 'the rich', or upper class well educated main support base for the political-corporate base that runs the US right now. I was truthful (but vehement) and factual, showing the paths that differing folks needed to pursue to get at the truth.
The second time, I was posting on this forum and another, on the same day, on how to get T. Henry Moray's Resonant Crystal and Radioactively driven devices to work correctly. Ie, the missing points of how it works that are not in the patents or papers. I had a friend who also works for the defence industry and governments of two countries in my office, interrogating me, in less than 24 hours of making that post. My identity on both forums is not publically known, but this was the outcome.
So, in essence, those who can do specific things, and spend lots of time being public and upfront about it, merely stick out, head and shoulders above the crowd, and they are targeted quickly and accurately.
What you need is an army of those who are in the know and actually doing these things. That is difficult to stop.
Identifying yourself in that camp can be foolish, depending on the given personal circumstances.
@CLaNZeR and @Craigy,
Good luck to both of you from me too. To add pain to suffering a Nor'eastern storm hit us here in the Boston area with at least of 10" of snow. That's all we need now. Eagerly awaiting your results.
Right another update, now the Correct Stator magnets have arrived.
I lathed down some shaft and press fitted them onto the Magnets, did crack one of them, so good job I ordered 10 :), so be carefull as even soft brass can do some damage!
I had to ditch the cube rotor as even with a HUGE gap they were too powerfull and it was difficult to spin the rotor.
Even now I struggle to get it upto 400RPM spinning by hand and need to maybe alter the height of the stators or increase the air gap.
As you can see by the video the latching occurs at over 500 RPM with the spacing I have. I will move them back and do more testing later on.
Still 100 other things to try yet, but atleast the building blocks are in place :)
Video link is:
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRSCorrectmags1.wmv
Cheers
Sean.
The rc helicopter bearings just arrived. However, they look too small--3/16". They arrived in a huge box with no details whatsoever. Can these bearings be used ... Another glitch.
@ Sean
Just saw your last video. Could it be that the Judson are dragging down the rotor so U are losing some of the effect. I did see on some of Pic's the device was running without the dampers.
Also, how do u determine the stator height?
What is correct?
Reviewing the data the stators appear to be just below rotor magnet center line.
Is this what u are seeing on your setup or still a variable?
Thx
Bill
Quote from: jcims on January 14, 2008, 07:50:30 AM
Here is the circuit:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg208.imageshack.us%2Fimg208%2F9783%2Fcircuitjb8.png&hash=507d072e15bef162cd394800ee6d30db4306be6f)
Thank you for the circuit. Nice find.
Since I am interested in studying the stator angle at various phases of operation, perhaps a strobe light, mounted above, triggered with a reed or optical switch that can be repositioned on the fly would do the trick. Ideally I would want the strobe to pop per one revolution of the rotor. Then, being able to adjust the rotor angle of the flash point by sliding the sensor around the perimeter, we could see patterns in the relationship of these freely rotating stators in relation to the rotor magnets during various phases of operation. I am most interested to see what the critical angle is, if there is one, or the dynamics of the rotors during the transition from acceleration to deceleration. Then we will be able to experiment with ways of preventing this crossover condition from taking place.
Whoever makes videos of this strobe action should have some good house music to go with it in the background. ;)
Quote from: vipond50 on January 14, 2008, 12:34:43 PM
@ Sean
Just saw your last video. Could it be that the Judson are dragging down the rotor so U are losing some of the effect. I did see on some of Pic's the device was running without the dampers.
Also, how do u determine the stator height?
What is correct?
Reviewing the data the stators appear to be just below rotor magnet center line.
Is this what u are seeing on your setup or still a variable?
Thx
Bill
Hi Bill
Find picture below of the config at the moment. The top of the Stator magnets are the same height as the top of the Rotor magnets.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FstatorH1.jpg&hash=dbda57b40c28968d464db9ccd9a41b73c052329e)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FstatorH2.jpg&hash=8217e2684a2ec928b2125fa6a081a5a524e4b8dc)
Plenty more playing yet ;D
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 14, 2008, 12:58:18 PM
Quote from: vipond50 on January 14, 2008, 12:34:43 PM
@ Sean
Just saw your last video. Could it be that the Judson are dragging down the rotor so U are losing some of the effect. I did see on some of Pic's the device was running without the dampers.
Also, how do u determine the stator height?
What is correct?
Reviewing the data the stators appear to be just below rotor magnet center line.
Is this what u are seeing on your setup or still a variable?
Thx
Bill
Hi Bill
Find picture below of the config at the moment. The top of the Stator magnets are the same height as the top of the Rotor magnets.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FstatorH1.jpg&hash=dbda57b40c28968d464db9ccd9a41b73c052329e)
Plenty more playing yet ;D
Cheers
Sean.
Thanks Sean
Wow ! Ddid not expect this type of a work up, Excellent. Will review in depth.
My materials are scheduled to arrive here today, so off to the my shop and start making chips.
Thx again
Bill
cool stuff sean , starting my base plate today, although am tempted to plug a few of the new magnets into the old model i have..even though the measurements are wrong. The stator holders are they just brass shaft , friction fit to bearing and magnet?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 14, 2008, 12:21:05 PM
The rc helicopter bearings just arrived. However, they look too small--3/16". They arrived in a huge box with no details whatsoever. Can these bearings be used ... Another glitch.
Huge box with no details? :o
Better check for polonium. ::)
Quote from: Craigy on January 14, 2008, 01:07:53 PM
cool stuff sean , starting my base plate today, although am tempted to plug a few of the new magnets into the old model i have..even though the measurements are wrong. The stator holders are they just brass shaft , friction fit to bearing and magnet?
Hi Craigy
I lathed down 6mm rod to around 3/16 one end and 3mm the other.
Then I mounted the magnet in the lathe and placed the Brass Rod in the lathe tailstock drill chuck. Then just gently squessed it in. They went in nice and square and a really tight fit.
I cut some 3mm brass tube I had to make the 6mm spacers and the bearings mounted in polycarbonate mounts either side.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FstatorH3.jpg&hash=83c5724a603d0dd97bebec48537af73d905bfeb8)
On the finished ones press fitted I just threaded the end so I could put a nut on the end and pull fit the shafts into the bearings.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FstatorH4.jpg&hash=0e81b086d447485ca445751ccd38f94a58a60d5c)
Good luck mate
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: Grimer on January 14, 2008, 01:08:23 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 14, 2008, 12:21:05 PM
The rc helicopter bearings just arrived. However, they look too small--3/16". They arrived in a huge box with no details whatsoever. Can these bearings be used ... Another glitch.
Huge box with no details? :o
Better check for polonium. ::)
ROFL ;D ;D ;D ;D
Hi Sean,
Cracking progress!
800 rpm rotor speed, so you need 4 x that for the sync on the stator, so thats 3200 rpm, I think you'll need some ribs/bumps on the stator to allow it to be spun up to speed with the air line. Bit of a trade of with air resistance.
Could you use the tacho to find the max you can spin the stator at by finger?
The other thing to try is using the brass you have, increase the stator inertia to help the syncing process.
If you make a small flywheel about 12mm or larger out of brass rod, you could drill series of 2mm holes around the circumference to allow the air gun to work.
I think the holes will create only a small amount of drag compared to bumps.
Sorry for all the suggestions.
I brought home two harddisks today with the idea of stripping them for bearings, but it is not that easy. Although I have a set of security torque drivers, some of the hub screws are too tiny even for my set.
[edit]Hi Localjoe, its a old quantum 450Mb drive, I also have a new looking Seagate 40Gb barracuda. There will be more drives I can get at work, just need to keep checking.[/edit]
[Edit 2]alsetalokin is back on the Steorn forum in the last half hour, so he has not gone or been got by the MIBs (sounds painful!) , phew!!!, maybe he can give Sean some pointers now.[/edit 2]
Regards
Rob
Western digitals take apart fairly easy and completely dismount from the chassis.
Joe
Hi Sean,
Looks great.
Just a thought, i am of the opinion that the rotor magnets and the stator magnets when doing a reverse spin pulls the magnets toward each other thus forcing the rotation. If this is true the rotor needs to be as light as possible and the stator needs to be heavier to pull the rotor.
Let me know what you think.
Adam
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 14, 2008, 01:26:39 PM
Quote from: Craigy on January 14, 2008, 01:07:53 PM
cool stuff sean , starting my base plate today, although am tempted to plug a few of the new magnets into the old model i have..even though the measurements are wrong. The stator holders are they just brass shaft , friction fit to bearing and magnet?
Hi Craigy
I lathed down 6mm rod to around 3/16 one end and 3mm the other.
Then I mounted the magnet in the lathe and placed the Brass Rod in the lathe tailstock drill chuck. Then just gently squessed it in. They went in nice and square and a really tight fit.
I cut some 3mm brass tube I had to make the 6mm spacers and the bearings mounted in polycarbonate mounts either side.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FstatorH3.jpg&hash=83c5724a603d0dd97bebec48537af73d905bfeb8)
On the finished ones press fitted I just threaded the end so I could put a nut on the end and pull fit the shafts into the bearings.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FstatorH4.jpg&hash=0e81b086d447485ca445751ccd38f94a58a60d5c)
Good luck mate
Cheers
Sean.
So in this stator design, the bearings themselves do not rotate?
In Al's stator design, the bearings rotate with the magnets, and I believe they are ordinary (ie. magnetic steel) bearings.
May be significant.
Quote from: ken_nyus
So in this stator design, the bearings themselves do not rotate?
LOL yes they rotate or waste of time having the bearings.
The brass shafts sit inside of the bearings as the picture above shows.
Quote from: Aphiticus on January 14, 2008, 01:58:53 PM
Just a thought, i am of the opinion that the rotor magnets and the stator magnets when doing a reverse spin pulls the magnets toward each other thus forcing the rotation. If this is true the rotor needs to be as light as possible and the stator needs to be heavier to pull the rotor.
Hi Adam.
Got various Rotors on the go and at the moment playing with the 6mm Thick Rotor below that has the 5mm rod magnets in it.
Simply by removing the spacers on the stator bearings it allows me to drop them level for the thinner rotors.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FstatorH5.jpg&hash=131227cad3ddb9e8cd51a16a1e06d23e4683bc95)
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 14, 2008, 02:35:52 PM
Quote from: ken_nyus
So in this stator design, the bearings themselves do not rotate?
LOL yes they rotate or waste of time having the bearings.
The brass shafts sit inside of the bearings as the picture above shows.
Sorry I know it is a minor point, but in Al's stator the outer ring of the bearing rotates, here the inner ring rotates.
I know it is a minor point, but these are magnetic steel bearings.
In any case good luck and have fun!
Wish I had a completed rig to play with!
Quote from: Aphiticus on January 14, 2008, 01:58:53 PM
Hi Sean,
Looks great.
Just a thought, i am of the opinion that the rotor magnets and the stator magnets when doing a reverse spin pulls the magnets toward each other thus forcing the rotation. If this is true the rotor needs to be as light as possible and the stator needs to be heavier to pull the rotor.
Let me know what you think.
Adam
The idea is a fair one but the rotor in Al?s rig is approching 500 grams, and the general opinion is that the stator should be as light as posible. Using the brass shaft in this way separates the bearing from the stator magnet by some distance which hopefully will reduce bearing attraction drag , but having said that Al?s rig has the magnets plonked right on top of the bearings. If that plays a part i have no idea, just have to knock a few up to see,
Quote800 rpm rotor speed, so you need 4 x that for the sync on the stator, so thats 3200 rpm, I think you'll need some ribs/bumps on the stator to allow it to be spun up to speed with the air line. Bit of a trade of with air resistance.
Have not turned the Tacho on the Stator magnets yet, will try that tomorrow, be interesting too see.
I actually have 2 tacho's here, so can monitor both at the same time :)
Quote
Could you use the tacho to find the max you can spin the stator at by finger?
The Big 20mm thick rotor max's out at around 400 RPM by hand.
Quote
The other thing to try is using the brass you have, increase the stator inertia to help the syncing process.
If you make a small flywheel about 12mm or larger out of brass rod, you could drill series of 2mm holes around the circumference to allow the air gun to work.
I think the holes will create only a small amount of drag compared to bumps.
Sorry for all the suggestions.
Will add them to the list LOL :)
Quote
I brought home two harddisks today with the idea of stripping them for bearings, but it is not that easy. Although I have a set of security torque drivers, some of the hub screws are too tiny even for my set.
I have stripped down many a hard drive and if you Rip out the guts of the motor so there is no drag you can find some really loose ones. You will no way get the Wind Down times of using RC bearings Top and Bottom like Craigy and I use, so do not be too disapointed when you find this out.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: ken_nyus
Sorry I know it is a minor point, but in Al's stator the outer ring of the bearing rotates, here the inner ring rotates.
I know it is a minor point, but these are magnetic steel bearings.
Hi Ken
So is there more friction on the bearings spinning the outside ring or the inside ring?
Think about it :)
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 14, 2008, 03:15:31 PM
Hi Ken
So is there more friction on the bearings spinning the outside ring or the inside ring?
Think about it :)
Cheers
Sean.
Hey Clanzer, I'm not thinking about the friction but the rotating (or not rotating) steel that is magnetic.
But please continue testing!
With so little time myself to build one of these things, I would like to ask if someone may be interested in building myself a suitable replication for a "consideration".
What's more, my electronics and scientific knowledge certainly doesn't make up for my lack of fabrication skills required for this device - though would be fun trying ;D.
That said, I have a considerably simpler electronic counterpart of a motor in-mind (without any stall-points at-all), so perhaps an opportunity for further business if anyone were interested - strictly on the understanding that all findings and positive discoveries will remain public to this excellent forum?
All the best,
FunkyJive
@ Sean,
It may not matter, but I believe that with Al's setup, the stator magnets come to the "bottom" of the rotor magnets. But I think this will make a difference for the latching effect, but if yours are adjustable, and it does not work, that is the first thing I would do, is drop your stators.
Great job as always,
Bruce
Quote from: btentzer on January 14, 2008, 03:59:35 PM
It may not matter, but I believe that with Al's setup, the stator magnets come to the "bottom" of the rotor magnets. But I think this will make a difference for the latching effect, but if yours are adjustable, and it does not work, that is the first thing I would do, is drop your stators.
Hi Bruce
Think I may have to trawl through the 1000's of threads over at Steorn Forums to find this out.
Looking at the various pictures they all seem to show the Magnets level with the top of the rotor magnets, apart from this earlier rig that was photographed at a better angle to tell.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fsnoc10.jpg&hash=3723f7f8a00cb2e6e3cfc296ffb0b8b7cc990c22)
Looks like they are half way down the rotor magnets maybe?
Cheers
Sean.
Hope this helps - quote from Al in Steorn forum in regards to someone else's rig:
"Just slight differences: the dampers on the real thing are mounted lower. It looks like everything is on the same plane in the model; in the real unit the plane of the rotor magnets skims the top edge of the plane of the stator magnets, and the damper plane skims the lower edge, if that makes sense."
BTW, great work... been intently lurking for quite some time 8)
-goofy
@ Jason,
Doug Furr asked me to see if I could get some clarification on what the damper things are for and how they mount.
My understanding is that they are to keep the thing from accellerating to destruction.
Any light you could shed on this would be appreciated.
Doug Furr had to go out of state today for an urgent meeting, so he'll probably be a day or two more before he's done with his replication. I stopped in to see his progress last night. He was machining the rotor on his CNC machine. The base is done. He showed me his bag of hundreds of magnets.
- - -
@ CLaNZer,
Would you mind providing me with your email address? I understand you wish to keep it confidential, and I will honor that request. Send to sterlingda {at} pureenergysystems.com.
Thanks
Sterling
OK, got the bearings. The storm didn't help but that place in Boston happened to have the exact recommended bearings. Once in a while one gets lucky. Off to the remaining parts.
Hello all here is my long awaited quote for parts as spec'd in the drawings for the whipmag replication...
>>Hi Jason.
>>We are quoting your parts, 10 assys for $83.75 each.
>>Thank you
>>Terri @ C&D
They are a little more expensive that I originally thought...
In the interest of getting something out of this....
If I get 9 orders... I can get them to you for $94 each plus shipping...
this will get me one for myself and One for each of the 9 lucky folks that want to pay $94 US for them.
In the unlikely event 9 of you are still interested, I have paypal, live in NY, and will take interest as it comes via PM so as to not clutter this thread with this...
I truly thought I could get these done cheaper, it is what it is...
I do know that the quality of the parts from this machine shop is superior, although not sure for a hundred bucks, you will still need to have bearings, magnets, and shafts.
Personally I will probably wait until, clanzer replicates, then build a giant one based on that.
Thanks
UZ
The LaFonte Group is expecting the magnets to arrive late today. We will test tonight.
Quote from: sterlinga on January 14, 2008, 04:46:54 PM
@ Jason,
Doug Furr asked me to see if I could get some clarification on what the damper things are for and how they mount.
My understanding is that they are to keep the thing from accellerating to destruction.
Any light you could shed on this would be appreciated.
Doug Furr had to go out of state today for an urgent meeting, so he'll probably be a day or two more before he's done with his replication. I stopped in to see his progress last night. He was machining the rotor on his CNC machine. The base is done. He showed me his bag of hundreds of magnets.
- - -
@ CLaNZer,
Would you mind providing me with your email address? I understand you wish to keep it confidential, and I will honor that request. Send to sterlingda {at} pureenergysystems.com.
Thanks
Sterling
Hi Alan,
quoted notes:
"...the unit runs faster without the magnokinetic Judson dampers. Typical stator speeds are 8000 rpm, rotor 2000. But the unit is quite unstable at those speeds, maybe due to the cheap bearings I used for the stators. But that's unknown, it could be that the bearing chatter actually contributes to the effect by some chaotic dynamical interaction. Don't ask me with what!
Anyway the unit will run up to high speed but only stays for a short time before the stator "drops out" and the rotor freewheels to a stop. I figured that a little eddy-current damping at high speeds (and proportionally less at low speeds, so the damping at startup speeds is essentially zero.) would do the trick. There was an adjustment process that took a couple hours to find the sweet spot and the orientation, and it seemed so close to an already drilled and tapped set of holes in the base, that I just used the existing holes, even though the positioning wasn't totally optimum..."
I hope this helps
Thanks
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 14, 2008, 04:14:16 PM
Quote from: btentzer on January 14, 2008, 03:59:35 PM
It may not matter, but I believe that with Al's setup, the stator magnets come to the "bottom" of the rotor magnets. But I think this will make a difference for the latching effect, but if yours are adjustable, and it does not work, that is the first thing I would do, is drop your stators.
Hi Bruce
Think I may have to trawl through the 1000's of threads over at Steorn Forums to find this out.
Looking at the various pictures they all seem to show the Magnets level with the top of the rotor magnets, apart from this earlier rig that was photographed at a better angle to tell.
Looks like they are half way down the rotor magnets maybe?
Cheers
Sean.
Hi Sean,
This may clarify the position of the stator magnets compared to the rotor:
quote:
"..., the relative height of the stator and rotor magnets seems important. I don't know if it's because of my particular geometry or whether it is critical to the effect itself, but the magnets shouldn't be in the same plane--that is, I am getting best results when the rotor magnets are rotating in a plane that is just slightly higher than the tops of the stator magnets, rather than down and centered vertically...."
I hope this helps
Thanks
Quote from: unzapped on January 14, 2008, 05:01:10 PM
Hello all here is my long awaited quote for parts as spec'd in the drawings for the whipmag replication...
>>Hi Jason.
>>We are quoting your parts, 10 assys for $83.75 each.
>>Thank you
>>Terri @ C&D
They are a little more expensive that I originally thought...
In the interest of getting something out of this....
If I get 9 orders... I can get them to you for $94 each plus shipping...
this will get me one for myself and One for each of the 9 lucky folks that want to pay $94 US for them.
In the unlikely event 9 of you are still interested, I have paypal, live in NY, and will take interest as it comes via PM so as to not clutter this thread with this...
I truly thought I could get these done cheaper, it is what it is...
I do know that the quality of the parts from this machine shop is superior, although not sure for a hundred bucks, you will still need to have bearings, magnets, and shafts.
Personally I will probably wait until, clanzer replicates, then build a giant one based on that.
Thanks
UZ
Sounds Great UZ
Please put me down for one of those babies!
I'm still waiting for a quote from SPM but I don't think that they'll be able to beat that price... (Hey Ken... are you in??)
Just want to make sure that materials are as recommended by Al (rotor - HDPE etc...)
Thanks
Geodan
Please send me
...sorry, fat fingered that...
Please send me contact information for payment / shipping arrangements.
Thanks
Geodan
ok then, looks like I have two orders so far...
I know I could go back to find this info... the best material for the job was listing in the tech specs...
BUT, do we want a clear substrateinstead?
Thanks
UZ
Hi Just a quick post to state that i can get 500 rpm plus i.e. 511, 513, 524 rpm with a hand or finger start on the rotor with three 1/4" (6.35 diameter) cylinder mags/ slot. The rotor diameter is as per spec.
Bill
Quote from: unzapped on January 14, 2008, 06:29:03 PM
ok then, looks like I have two orders so far...
I know I could go back to find this info... the best material for the job was listing in the tech specs...
BUT, do we want a clear substrateinstead?
Thanks
UZ
"...But I do not recommend using polycarbonate (Lexan )for any part of the machine--it's in the wrong place on the triboelectric series, if one of my theories is correct.
Nor do I recommend acrylic plastic (Lucite, Plexiglas, Perspex?) for the rotor, if the base is acrylic. Different materials should probably be used. I used HDPE which at the opposite end of the plastic tribo series from acrylic.
----------------------------------------
The Delrin (or Acetal in the civilized world) is what I used for the early rotors and all the stator bearing/magnet holders, and the 3.5 mm to 1/2 in shaft adapter. It is by far the nicest plastic to machine. ..."
UZ - we should also consider altering the design so that we can move the stators / dampers around some... kind of like Sean did on his base... I want to be able to replicate but I also want to be able to tweak...
@Jason - What do you think??
Thanks
Geodanz
Quote from: mikestocks2006 on January 14, 2008, 05:50:05 PM
Quote from: sterlinga on January 14, 2008, 04:46:54 PM
Doug Furr asked me to see if I could get some clarification on what the damper things are for and how they mount.
My understanding is that they are to keep the thing from accellerating to destruction.
Any light you could shed on this would be appreciated.
Hi Alan,
quoted notes:
"...the unit runs faster without the magnokinetic Judson dampers. Typical stator speeds are 8000 rpm, rotor 2000. But the unit is quite unstable at those speeds, maybe due to the cheap bearings I used for the stators. But that's unknown, it could be that the bearing chatter actually contributes to the effect by some chaotic dynamical interaction. Don't ask me with what! [...]"
I added this to http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor#Magnokinetic_Judson_dampers (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor#Magnokinetic_Judson_dampers)
Is there somewhere that describes the details of how to build/install the magnokinetic Judson dampers?
Thanks
Quote from: sterlinga
@ CLaNZer,
Would you mind providing me with your email address? I understand you wish to keep it confidential, and I will honor that request. Send to sterlingda {at} pureenergysystems.com.
Sorry for the delay, I can only give 18 hours a day for this project over the last week ;D ;D ;D
I really should go back to work instead of playing, but what the hell , that's one of the joys of being self employed. ummmmmmm no seriously I should go do some work..... Okay maybe next week LOL
My public email is clanzer@clanzer.co.uk please feel free to email me and I will help where I can.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: sterlinga on January 14, 2008, 06:52:37 PM
Quote from: mikestocks2006 on January 14, 2008, 05:50:05 PM
Quote from: sterlinga on January 14, 2008, 04:46:54 PM
Doug Furr asked me to see if I could get some clarification on what the damper things are for and how they mount.
My understanding is that they are to keep the thing from accellerating to destruction.
Any light you could shed on this would be appreciated.
Hi Alan,
quoted notes:
"...the unit runs faster without the magnokinetic Judson dampers. Typical stator speeds are 8000 rpm, rotor 2000. But the unit is quite unstable at those speeds, maybe due to the cheap bearings I used for the stators. But that's unknown, it could be that the bearing chatter actually contributes to the effect by some chaotic dynamical interaction. Don't ask me with what! [...]"
I added this to http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor#Magnokinetic_Judson_dampers (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor#Magnokinetic_Judson_dampers)
Is there somewhere that describes the details of how to build/install the magnokinetic Judson dampers?
Thanks
Only quote I found and collected from Al at Steorn, when someone repeatedly asked for clarification on how the dampers were "adjusted"....
"...The dampers are tuned by trial and error. If too close they retard the magnet too much and it won't synch. Too far and there's no benefit. Once the distance is found, rotating a little at a time and trying the spin until I found a "sweet spot" is how I did it. The effect of the dampers is small, in any case..."
To all replicators:
Are you using N35 or N42 rotor mags?
I think everyone has the same N42 stator ring mags.
N42 Stator and N42 rotor mags
B.
My understanding is Al used N35 for the rotor mags. I ordered N42 as per the parts list. (also rectangular rather than cylindrical).
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 14, 2008, 07:00:31 PM
To all replicators:
Are you using N35 or N42 rotor mags?
I think everyone has the same N42 stator ring mags.
Indeed, the fact that the flux strength seems to be stronger (perhaps overly strong) in Clanzer's replication appears to create a sort of "magnetic drag" type of situation which causes the rotor to come to a standstill sooner. Now.. if the device does indeed work, it seems this would increase the torque produced.
However, it may be critical for the flux strength between the stators and rotor to be within a certain key interval, and thus if the stator magnets are stronger, they should be moved farther away from the rotor.
Just a thought :)
Quote from: mikestocks2006 on January 14, 2008, 05:58:57 PM
This may clarify the position of the stator magnets compared to the rotor:
quote:
"..., the relative height of the stator and rotor magnets seems important. I don't know if it's because of my particular geometry or whether it is critical to the effect itself, but the magnets shouldn't be in the same plane--that is, I am getting best results when the rotor magnets are rotating in a plane that is just slightly higher than the tops of the stator magnets, rather than down and centered vertically...."
Thanks for that Mike
I will try and raise them above. ummm maybe need some sort of adjustment mechanism here.
I could always cut a number of brass spacers in 1mm increments.
Will have a think on this.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: vipond50 on January 14, 2008, 06:33:17 PM
Hi Just a quick post to state that i can get 500 rpm plus i.e. 511, 513, 524 rpm with a hand or finger start on the rotor with three 1/4" (6.35 diameter) cylinder mags/ slot. The rotor diameter is as per spec.
Bill
Good going Bill, is this with the Stator magnets in place?
What is the weight of your rotor?
Get some pictures up! I am feeling lonely here :)
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 14, 2008, 07:05:51 PM
Quote from: mikestocks2006 on January 14, 2008, 05:58:57 PM
This may clarify the position of the stator magnets compared to the rotor:
quote:
"..., the relative height of the stator and rotor magnets seems important. I don't know if it's because of my particular geometry or whether it is critical to the effect itself, but the magnets shouldn't be in the same plane--that is, I am getting best results when the rotor magnets are rotating in a plane that is just slightly higher than the tops of the stator magnets, rather than down and centered vertically...."
Thanks for that Mike
I will try and raise them above. ummm maybe need some sort of adjustment mechanism here.
I could always cut a number of brass spacers in 1mm increments.
Will have a think on this.
Cheers
Sean.
Hi Sean,
You could perhaps use brass or rubber washers to lift up the rotor to the needed height. I think you will find that difference will affect the synch, according to Al.
@ All,
I too received my magnets today! ;D My OCAL magneto judson dampers are on the way via the mail box. (Sterling, they are simply solid aluminum 1/2" diameter, 1/4" thick round. It has a hole in the center, large enough for a 4-40 screw, of brass or nylon to go through it, and thread into the base. Please see Jason's drawing.pdf . )
Jason, Hank and I are going a different route than many. We are attempting an exact replication. We don't want to change a thing just yet. In all honesty I am concerned about some "replications" I have seen on youtube. I have seen bearings that look as if they came out of a rollerskate, it is so big. :o People just using any old tid bits around. Now if this works, will all of that, then great. But if it does not, will those youtuber's scream, "It does not work!" When in reality, they have not replicated the OCAL, but rather their own interpretation of it, built with spit and tape.
I am certainly NOT knocking peoples hard work. But I want people to be prepared to ask hard questions, if someone claims that it does not work. Cutting corners with such a rare "anomaly" as this, is not recommended.
There are still two dimensions Jason and I think are needed for exact accuracy, and Jason will post about that soon, for someone to ask Al.
Cheers,
Bruce
hi im trying to replicate this too ;D
quick question im looking at the .pdf of the motor and i haven't a clue....i attached the pdf
does anyone know what the length of one side of the octagon rotor is on page 3?
Thanks in advance
Quote from: crash_uni8 on January 14, 2008, 09:25:50 PM
does anyone know what the length of one side of the octagon rotor is on page 3?
Well, the drawing says it's 2.375" from the center to the inner edge, which makes the inner edge 2.375*2*tan(22.5) = 1.968" long. Check my math.
But, I'm pretty sure I heard Al say that it was 2.5" to the inner edge (not the center of the trough), which would make these drawings wrong.
Lemme check...
Yes, in here:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=6#Item_49
He says:
The rotor is 3/4 in thick piece of HDPE plastic, 2 7/8 in radius, with a 0.500 in center hole bored all the way thru for the flanged axle bearings. Magnets are held in 8 evenly-spaced 1/4 in wide slots, 7/16 in deep, inner edge of slots at the 2 1/2 in radius from centerCheers,
Mr. Entropy
EDIT: fixed length calculation
Guys just thought i would drop this off, i have a Panacea registered engineer (with allot of experience) building this for us ATM, will have full write up and disclosure if it gets working, here is the Blue prints he provided , hope it helps some one, am not back, am very busy these days working on Two open sourced devices will have them ready soon for third party testing.
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7513/rotorlayoutjj6.jpg
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/9560/baseplatelayouttz1.jpg
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3757/statorbearingmagnetadapps2.jpg
Quote from: Mr.Entropy on January 14, 2008, 10:01:31 PM
But, I'm pretty sure I heard Al say that it was 2.5" to the inner edge (not the center of the trough), which would make these drawings wrong.
Lemme check...
Yes, in here:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=6#Item_49
He says:
The rotor is 3/4 in thick piece of HDPE plastic, 2 7/8 in radius, with a 0.500 in center hole bored all the way thru for the flanged axle bearings. Magnets are held in 8 evenly-spaced 1/4 in wide slots, 7/16 in deep, inner edge of slots at the 2 1/2 in radius from center
Cheers,
Mr. Entropy
I noticed that too, I think the file "drawings.pdf" has it off, it is taking the center of the rotor magnet as 2.5" from center.
Hello All,
About the blueprints. That dimension is different than what Al originally said because while I was drawing the rotor, I noticed a big discrepancy in the appearance of the rotor disk using the given measurements compared to the photos of the original. Look here to read the post about it (Pictures included):
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg68313.html#msg68313
Also, here is Al's reply to my finding:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg68742.html#msg68742
Additionally, I had Al verify that all the stated dimensions in my blueprints are accurate. Here is his post regarding that as well:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg69936.html#msg69936
I hope this clears up the confusion.
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: geodan on January 14, 2008, 06:38:46 PM
Quote from: unzapped on January 14, 2008, 06:29:03 PM
ok then, looks like I have two orders so far...
I know I could go back to find this info... the best material for the job was listing in the tech specs...
BUT, do we want a clear substrateinstead?
Thanks
UZ
"...But I do not recommend using polycarbonate (Lexan )for any part of the machine--it's in the wrong place on the triboelectric series, if one of my theories is correct.
Nor do I recommend acrylic plastic (Lucite, Plexiglas, Perspex?) for the rotor, if the base is acrylic. Different materials should probably be used. I used HDPE which at the opposite end of the plastic tribo series from acrylic.
----------------------------------------
The Delrin (or Acetal in the civilized world) is what I used for the early rotors and all the stator bearing/magnet holders, and the 3.5 mm to 1/2 in shaft adapter. It is by far the nicest plastic to machine. ..."
UZ - we should also consider altering the design so that we can move the stators / dampers around some... kind of like Sean did on his base... I want to be able to replicate but I also want to be able to tweak...
@Jason - What do you think??
Thanks
Geodanz
Hi Geodanz,
I also plan to make a tweakable model of this motor, but for the first off model, i think it will be imperative to built it as close to spec as possible. We do not know what underlying mechanism and factors are making it run, so changing even the slightest details may result in a dud. The only adjustable parameter on my setup is the rotor height. I am going with the simple bolt axle (which Al also used in his model when he first got it working). The screw gives us the ability to adjust both the horizontal and vertical spacing between the rotor and stator magnets, which as others have already pointed out, is a key parameter. Since I am using N42 Neos for the rotor, My guess is that the gap will need to be just a hair wider than what Al used to compensate for the greater field intensity.
God Bless,
Jason O
Mark received correct magnets today and installed them and has been testing for several hours, but has not had any self running indications so far. This is what we all need to replicated the results seen on the original and only video shown on Youtube.
1. RPM of rotor and RPM of stator when the system gets in "tune" and starts to accelerate.
2. A new video with good lighting and the bottom side of the rotor shown during operation as well as side views during operation.
3. A new video showing the rotor up to speed and staying there for a time limited only by the size of the video files Youtube will allow.
4. If possible the name and a way of contacting "OC" by phone so the replication project can be approached in a "normal" professional
matter. If you will notice, on Sterling Allen's site, people give their full names as is a practice in the scientific community. It would give this site more creditability with venture captialist's and the scientific community in general. If someone is worried about "big oil" finding out who they are, well it would only take them one phone call and one hour to find out where anyone on this list lives. You can do that when you have endless billions of dollars at your disposal. I also believe that not giving all infomation to the public and being the only one with that information puts a person or persons in a very dangerous position where "big oil" is concerned. The best way is to get the information out to millions and then there is nothing to be accomplished by going to the original inventor. In fact, it just draws more attention to the situation. The web is the achilles heel for the powers that be, so take advantage of it.
5. In closing, videos taken if different locations, parking lot, or with a number of people in attendance would get more people to attempt replication. The LaFonte group has always had a policy that if we get a self runner, anyone can come by and see it operating and to a degree examine it. I feel certain that main stream science is ready to accept us if we just conduct ourselfs the way all scientists do when they have a breakthrough. They publish papers with their real names on it after patents are filed if they are seeking a patent. If not they just publish them for open sourcing.
We are spending lots of money, time, and energy trying to replicate many different designs as well as our own designs. I feel it's time overunity research everywhere became more like Sterling Allen's site
with peoples real names and then they could be contacted by parties they would be interested in speaking with.
I short, I think our movement has some growing up to do, myself included. Lets stop hiding, come out in the open, be professional, real people, using real names and we will become accepted more by the world at large. This is scientific research, not a club house.
This is my personal opinion, I have not discussed this with any LaFonte Group members before posting this.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Hi Butch,
I definitely agree with you about the points for the video. The problem though is that Al (the replicator who posted the video) would not have even released the one we all have if Omnibus hadn't pressured him into it; and after he did, he got all kinds of flack from people calling him a fraud. Al is already a bonified skeptic and does not seem to show any signs of believing that this motor's behavior is anything more than an interesting "artifact." I doubt that we can expect to see any more videos from him. But then again, who knows?
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: Butch on January 14, 2008, 11:10:44 PM
Mark received correct magnets today and installed them and has been testing for several hours, but has not had any self running indications so far. This is what we all need to replicated the results seen on the original and only video shown on Youtube.
1. RPM of rotor and RPM of stator when the system gets in "tune" and starts to accelerate.
2. A new video with good lighting and the bottom side of the rotor shown during operation as well as side views during operation.
3. A new video showing the rotor up to speed and staying there for a time limited only by the size of the video files Youtube will allow.
4. If possible the name and a way of contacting "OC" by phone so the replication project can be approached in a "normal" professional
matter. If you will notice, on Sterling Allen's site, people give their full names as is a practice in the scientific community. It would give this site more creditability with venture captialist's and the scientific community in general. If someone is worried about "big oil" finding out who they are, well it would only take them one phone call and one hour to find out where anyone on this list lives. You can do that when you have endless billions of dollars at your disposal. I also believe that not giving all infomation to the public and being the only one with that information puts a person or persons in a very dangerous position where "big oil" is concerned. The best way is to get the information out to millions and then there is nothing to be accomplished by going to the original inventor. In fact, it just draws more attention to the situation. The web is the achilles heel for the powers that be, so take advantage of it.
5. In closing, videos taken if different locations, parking lot, or with a number of people in attendance would get more people to attempt replication. The LaFonte group has always had a policy that if we get a self runner, anyone can come by and see it operating and to a degree examine it. I feel certain that main stream science is ready to accept us if we just conduct ourselfs the way all scientists do when they have a breakthrough. They publish papers with their real names on it after patents are filed if they are seeking a patent. If not they just publish them for open sourcing.
We are spending lots of money, time, and energy trying to replicate many different designs as well as our own designs. I feel it's time overunity research everywhere became more like Sterling Allen's site
with peoples real names and then they could be contacted by parties they would be interested in speaking with.
I short, I think our movement has some growing up to do, myself included. Lets stop hiding, come out in the open, be professional, real people, using real names and we will become accepted more by the world at large. This is scientific research, not a club house.
This is my personal opinion, I have not discussed this with any LaFonte Group members before posting this.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
I always use my real name, so I will reply. I do not think that better video will help your group with this replication. So everyone needs to take the video in the context in which it was made. And Al never posted the video to sway the masses, and kept it up for only 20 minutes or so. He is a skeptic to OU. He is still working on this "anomaly" though.
He is either a liar, or truthful. Plain and simple. I have read all of his posts, and I believe he is very truthful. I do not believe he hoaxed it. Nor do I believe that Sean and many others have hoaxed, getting anti gear sync. (I believe there have been 5 now.)
Watching your groups first video on youtube was disappointing.
1. The voice of skepticism
2. The rotor was being spun much faster than the stator. This is ridiculous if your group had been listening to the fact that there is a 4 to 1 sync between the stator magnet and rotor. So the stator should be spinning 4 times faster than the rotor.
3. Your groups center bearing looks awfully big. What blue print did you go off of to build your replication.
4. Has your group tried switching bearings? Al reported that not all magnet bearing couples work, for whatever reason. 3 out of his 13 did not work at all. (self powered).
So my advice? Back to the bench, or await other replications.
Cheers,
Bruce
@Crashuni1
Here's another Drawing of the Rotor Jason did an excellent job, but i alway work up my own so I can do amendments if needed.
Thanks Jason
Bill
Al just posted this at the Steorn Site.
What I've seen look really good, I think people are doing some impressive work, and I hope having some fun too.
I don't have much time
But here are a few tips
First, safety. Safety First!
--do not leave magnets lying around loose, even for a few moments. They are easy to lose control of, and hot flying pieces and pinch hazards are to be taken seriously. I use metal jar lids as magnet trays.
--do NOT grind, burn, etc. these NdBFe magnets! The dust is toxic and otherwise obnoxious, the fumes are toxic and smelly, etc.
--do not rely on adhesives! use structure to retain magnets against fields and forces.
Next, machining acrylic plastic and polycarbonate:
--Use WD-40 or clean kerosene (NOT GASOLINE OR PETROL!) as a cutting lubricant to keep drills, taps and other tooling cool and cutting well. Beware of alcohols--acrylic crazes and loses strength on exposure to alcohol--even the alcohol in a Sharpie marker will craze the acrylic over time, and cracks will occur. Wash the WD-40 off with dishsoap and warm water.
--plastic supply companies sell special drill bits with a sharper tip angle that won't crack or pull though the plastic. They are well worth the price.
--I usually use bottoming taps even when starting, in plastic, I rarely need the plug tap to start a tapped hole. The bottoming tap makes a better thread I think.
On perseverance:
--It took me literally days of spinning and experimenting before I had a hint that something interesting might be happening--the decreased rotor drag that I first noted before the holidays. After that, more days of trial and error and serendipitous mistakes before I even found the AGW rotation modes. By Accident! So don't get discouraged if nothing seems to work--you may not have the right components or something, or it's not put together right. Recall also that about half my magnet-bearing pairs are ineffective.
--I would guess that most people will get decreased drag and increased rundown times if they get the magnets right. But extended run times like I saw are probably a result of some EM interaction that's happening in my apartment and at work. For sure it isn't anything like OU.
Quote from: Butch on January 14, 2008, 11:10:44 PM
Mark received correct magnets today and installed them and has been testing for several hours, but has not had any self running indications so far. This is what we all need to replicated the results seen on the original and only video shown on Youtube.
1. RPM of rotor and RPM of stator when the system gets in "tune" and starts to accelerate.
2. A new video with good lighting and the bottom side of the rotor shown during operation as well as side views during operation.
3. A new video showing the rotor up to speed and staying there for a time limited only by the size of the video files Youtube will allow.
4. If possible the name and a way of contacting "OC" by phone so the replication project can be approached in a "normal" professional
matter. If you will notice, on Sterling Allen's site, people give their full names as is a practice in the scientific community. It would give this site more creditability with venture captialist's and the scientific community in general. If someone is worried about "big oil" finding out who they are, well it would only take them one phone call and one hour to find out where anyone on this list lives. You can do that when you have endless billions of dollars at your disposal. I also believe that not giving all infomation to the public and being the only one with that information puts a person or persons in a very dangerous position where "big oil" is concerned. The best way is to get the information out to millions and then there is nothing to be accomplished by going to the original inventor. In fact, it just draws more attention to the situation. The web is the achilles heel for the powers that be, so take advantage of it.
5. In closing, videos taken if different locations, parking lot, or with a number of people in attendance would get more people to attempt replication. The LaFonte group has always had a policy that if we get a self runner, anyone can come by and see it operating and to a degree examine it. I feel certain that main stream science is ready to accept us if we just conduct ourselfs the way all scientists do when they have a breakthrough. They publish papers with their real names on it after patents are filed if they are seeking a patent. If not they just publish them for open sourcing.
We are spending lots of money, time, and energy trying to replicate many different designs as well as our own designs. I feel it's time overunity research everywhere became more like Sterling Allen's site
with peoples real names and then they could be contacted by parties they would be interested in speaking with.
I short, I think our movement has some growing up to do, myself included. Lets stop hiding, come out in the open, be professional, real people, using real names and we will become accepted more by the world at large. This is scientific research, not a club house.
This is my personal opinion, I have not discussed this with any LaFonte Group members before posting this.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Butch...Overconfident asked me to post this here in response
My response to #4 above:
I had an idea inspired by a dream. I have spent several months of my time just trying to get someone to consider the idea. Al is the only person who has. I do not have the education, knowledge, skills, or desire to develop this myself. I don't want money or fame, just someone to give some serious consideration to the idea I posted here. Talking with me would serve no purpose. I prefer to remain anonymous.
@Butch,
Never thought I would say this, I agree with you totally on these issues. People hiding in the shadows makes me feel..
well, distrustful. People should have the courage of their convictions, you know, it's still ok to be wrong. To err is human, etc etc..
Nuf Said
Dean
Butch,
I volunteer to witness it when you get it working. I say "when" because I really have faith you and others will be able to replicate Al's work.
Quote from: schoolboy2000 on January 15, 2008, 01:43:58 AM
Butch,
I volunteer to witness it when you get it working. I say "when" because I really have faith you and others will be able to replicate Al's work.
An anonymous witness isn't much use is it. :)
Grimer,
It wouldn't be anonymous if I witnessed it, I'd obviously disclose, although that won't drive away the skeptics, it's more of an offer to satisfy my own curiosity and "maybe" provide some support. But, it's more than any other video or projects have provided since none of them that I've seen have any witnesses or after the fact confirmation.
Quote from: Butch on January 14, 2008, 11:10:44 PM
Mark received correct magnets today and installed them and has been testing for several hours, but has not had any self running indications so far. This is what we all need to replicated the results seen on the original and only video shown on Youtube.
Butch LaFonte
Hi Butch
Could you let Mark know that his Spam Filter on his Email is stopping me from replying to him.
The emails I send just get bounced back.
Cheers
Sean.
posted at the Steorn forum
CommentAuthoroldHorseface CommentTime1 hour ago edited permalink
I have build a quick and funky new system where I get a short burst of acceleration, then a sustained speed for 10 seconds, then it slows down to stop in 20 seconds.
My stator is the same one from my Lego setup, but my rotor is 12" in diameter with 12 magnets facing outward alternating north-south. (unlike the OCAL system or my last Lego setup)
I think if anyone is getting AGW lock, you got it happening, you just need to reduce friction and tweek your alignment.
As AL said, the distance between rotor and stator is citical and different for every type of system. Anyone building a test jig should make that distance variable.
I am going out to Burbank tomorrow to get more magnets (disc neos) and try some more things.
I have seen energy from permanent magnets! I think I'm going to cry.
QuoteCommentAuthoroldHorseface CommentTime1 hour ago edited permalink
I have build a quick and funky new system where I get a short burst of acceleration, then a sustained speed for 10 seconds, then it slows down to stop in 20 seconds.
My stator is the same one from my Lego setup, but my rotor is 12" in diameter with 12 magnets facing outward alternating north-south. (unlike the OCAL system or my last Lego setup)
I think if anyone is getting AGW lock, you got it happening, you just need to reduce friction and tweek your alignment.
As AL said, the distance between rotor and stator is citical and different for every type of system. Anyone building a test jig should make that distance variable.
I am going out to Burbank tomorrow to get more magnets (disc neos) and try some more things.
I have seen energy from permanent magnets! I think I'm going to cry.
The burst of acceleration, is that just the stator magnet ?
If it is this would be expected until the stator speed matches the rotor speed (probably by the ratio most mention of 1:4). Spinning the stator AGW fast enough gets it going inphase and latching in AGW rotation, then it would accelerate under the force of the rotor magnets until it reaches a stable speed.
What would be really interesting is if the rotor was seen to accelerate more so than the stators.
Does anyone have any thoughts about the following detail that I noticed in Al's video:
At the point when he stops the two 'coasting' stators with his thumbs, I noticed that one happens to stop with its white-half towards the rotor while the other happens to stop with its black-half towards the rotor. Then we hear it accelerate. Then he lets go.
I expected to see the stators start spinning again. Maybe the rotor was moving too fast. The stators just sat there, with one exception; the 'black-half in-facing' stator does not move, while the 'white-half in-facing' stator slowly rolls over 180 degrees and stops to present its black-half towards the rotor, making two 'black-half in-facing' stators. The rotor is balanced magnetically, what is causing this bias?
Ponder that while I slave away for the man all day. ;)
Quote from: JAG on January 15, 2008, 12:51:57 AM
Al just posted this at the Steorn Site.
What I've seen look really good, I think people are doing some impressive work, and I hope having some fun too.
I don't have much time
But here are a few tips
First, safety. Safety First!
--do not leave magnets lying around loose, even for a few moments. They are easy to lose control of, and hot flying pieces and pinch hazards are to be taken seriously. I use metal jar lids as magnet trays.
--do NOT grind, burn, etc. these NdBFe magnets! The dust is toxic and otherwise obnoxious, the fumes are toxic and smelly, etc.
--do not rely on adhesives! use structure to retain magnets against fields and forces.
Next, machining acrylic plastic and polycarbonate:
--Use WD-40 or clean kerosene (NOT GASOLINE OR PETROL!) as a cutting lubricant to keep drills, taps and other tooling cool and cutting well. Beware of alcohols--acrylic crazes and loses strength on exposure to alcohol--even the alcohol in a Sharpie marker will craze the acrylic over time, and cracks will occur. Wash the WD-40 off with dishsoap and warm water.
--plastic supply companies sell special drill bits with a sharper tip angle that won't crack or pull though the plastic. They are well worth the price.
--I usually use bottoming taps even when starting, in plastic, I rarely need the plug tap to start a tapped hole. The bottoming tap makes a better thread I think.
On perseverance:
--It took me literally days of spinning and experimenting before I had a hint that something interesting might be happening--the decreased rotor drag that I first noted before the holidays. After that, more days of trial and error and serendipitous mistakes before I even found the AGW rotation modes. By Accident! So don't get discouraged if nothing seems to work--you may not have the right components or something, or it's not put together right. Recall also that about half my magnet-bearing pairs are ineffective.
--I would guess that most people will get decreased drag and increased rundown times if they get the magnets right. But extended run times like I saw are probably a result of some EM interaction that's happening in my apartment and at work. For sure it isn't anything like OU.
>
For sure it isn't anything like OUUmmm, not OU?
That is a interesting statement that someone would make
only if the knew (for sure) that it wasn?t OU?
sounds like a game to me.
Quote
Ummm, not OU?
That is a interesting statement that someone would make
only if the knew (for sure) that it wasn?t OU?
sounds like a game to me.
It's starting to sound that way to me too. For someone who has invented the greatest thing since fire, he is awfully casual about it.
Quote from: vipond50 on January 15, 2008, 12:37:19 AM
@Crashuni1
Here's another Drawing of the Rotor Jason did an excellent job, but i alway work up my own so I can do amendments if needed.
Thanks Jason
Bill
I guess that is yet another way to interpret the 2.5" spacing of the rotor mags, you take it to mean 2.5" to one of the corners of the octagon, not the flat face.
QuoteUmmm, not OU?
Sure NOT OU. Energy comes from the magnets! If we would be able to calculate maximal amount of energy what we can extract from the magnets and the energy extracted by this device, we would see - it should be not OU. ;D
Quote from: Jinis on January 15, 2008, 10:24:30 AM
QuoteUmmm, not OU?
Sure NOT OU. Energy comes from the magnets! If we would be able to calculate maximal amount of energy what we can extract from the magnets and the energy extracted by this device, we would see - it should be not OU. ;D
Ok, then would he be willing to call it ?free energy??
Or, is it more conventional say, equal to the degaussing of the magnets.
I.e. ?using up? the energy used to magnetize the magnets.
Over-unity and free energy are synonyms in my mind,
Which could be argued endlessly (and pointlessly as well).
Quote from: Jinis on January 15, 2008, 10:24:30 AM
QuoteUmmm, not OU?
Sure NOT OU. Energy comes from the magnets!
The amount of energy magnets have is negligible. If the energy came from the magnets then the magnets would loose their magnetisation. They don't.
The energy comes through the magnets from the surrounding environment, the magnetic potential the magnetic pressure. The magnets are releasing that potential, that pressure like a tap releasing the pressure in the mains.
Jag had the right idea, the right appreciation of things. He wrote:
oooooooooo
I have seen energy from permanent magnets! I think I'm going to cry.
Quote from: argona369 on January 15, 2008, 10:43:34 AM
Quote from: Jinis on January 15, 2008, 10:24:30 AM
QuoteUmmm, not OU?
Sure NOT OU. Energy comes from the magnets! If we would be able to calculate maximal amount of energy what we can extract from the magnets and the energy extracted by this device, we would see - it should be not OU. ;D
Ok, then would he be willing to call it ?free energy??
Or, is it more conventional say, equal to the degaussing of the magnets.
I.e. ?using up? the energy used to magnetize the magnets.
Over-unity and free energy are synonyms in my mind,
Which could be argued endlessly (and pointlessly as well).
The energy comes from a potential source that, till now, we had not learned to tap.
Now we have.
Yet another update.
The HDPE 20mm Sheet and Rod arrived today, so have knocked up a Rotor and some new Stator holders:
First I cut the Rod into 16mm lengths.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FSnr1.jpg&hash=181139fb2e4faa83b6d595300c63d3527f7f3170)
Then I drilled them out with 6mm all the way through and 12.5mm 6mm deep.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FSnr2.jpg&hash=c83931f8d301d402a6f9a87b87df5d4cac76db72)
Magnets fitted nice and snug.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FSnr3.jpg&hash=6cef9c1f9249477421fda14f8c0a8ad8457aa650)
Bearings again fitted great.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FSnr4.jpg&hash=0b83f7ca8590a4b5805dafceacdc4ccc0914209e)
Next I lathed some 8mm Brass Rods for the shafts.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FSnr5.jpg&hash=dff72d8bcb8092cdf571165387edbfdd992c5e41)
I threaded the bottoms of the shafts so they can mount on my base using 3mm brass screws.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FSnr6.jpg&hash=e62125a83e2c26e2e4a602d97dc821ec759b4e6c)
Next I cut out the 20mm Rotor and weighed it up.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fsnr7.jpg&hash=638ba3c92612de859cb7f5c5148486b16f7ada4b)
Rotor fitted and Stators all in place.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FSnr8.jpg&hash=c195921735c21e43dcf8753773f7996d4e127d6c)
I am waiting now for some 6mm * 13mm Rod magnets to arrive, but may try the Cubes again, but this time only using 2 on each edge rather than 3.
Cheers
Sean.
Looks Real Nice Sean looking forward to results. My Update is mine already and still waiting for Stator magnets. I thought last night but very slow coming for my location. I had 2" rod and what a mess to lathe it down, but did it.
Cheers
Wayne
hi sean , built a few more of my mk1 stators using 2 separate 4 x5 neos in a wheel. while they all look identical, i have one of the three that does a AGW spin with a tickle. just bear that in mind wen testing and test all stators for performance, some work better than others lol
Sean,
A small suggestion: you may want to lathe out some acrylic/HDPE rods to replace the metal screws that hold up your rotor axle support bar. It's possible that it may be significant to the design and may be interacting with the fields, since Al's rig didn't have that.
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 15, 2008, 10:05:24 AM
Quote from: vipond50 on January 15, 2008, 12:37:19 AM
@Crashuni1
Here's another Drawing of the Rotor Jason did an excellent job, but i alway work up my own so I can do amendments if needed.
Thanks Jason
Bill
I guess that is yet another way to interpret the 2.5" spacing of the rotor mags, you take it to mean 2.5" to one of the corners of the octagon, not the flat face.
Ok Ken & Group
What's the OD of the Rotor 2.875" or 3.0" ?
If measured other than other than what i show there is only 0.0440" of material left.
Bill
Rosphere,
In regards to your thoughts about the stator:
If you only use one stator magnet and spin the rotor to get in sync you will have an unbalanced system. Look at what magnets do, they just pull and push each other depending on the pole. So when you have the other two stator magnets on the outside of the rotor it balances the rotor so that there is an equal amount of pull on all sides of the rotor. If you move one stator magnet closer to the rotor, should you not move the other two the exact same distance?
Now heres the trick, the one stator magnet that does its clock wise rotation with the rotor also unbalances the system because it pushes and pulls, so if you have the other two magnets going clockwise also then they are all in sync working together.
The only other way to get the magnets in sync working together is to have those two magnets as neutrals not helping but also not causing any drag. Alsetalokin achieved this by stopping the two outside stator magnets from spinning after the one stator was in sync doing its clockwise rotation with the rotor. Doing this stopped the constant pull that those stator magnets were doing on the system. With them stopped he got a push, pull, push, pull, push pull from those stopped magnets as the rotor continued to spin thus giving he rotor maximum ability to speed up because the whole system was working in a fashion with one stator in flux doing the work. Its the only magnet we got doing a clockwise rotation with the rotor. The system is in balance using the two extra stators as neutrals.
Then you have another slight issue which might not be an issue but i call it an infinity gap which if you can find a bridge then the rotor will spin forever (of course after getting the timing, distance, weight down to perfection). The stators are all on a constant push, pull, push, push with nothing behind them unlike the rotor which is balanced. My suggestion for them would be to create neutral stators directly behind them to help balance the system, its a small fix that should reduce the constant pull at least from the only stator doing the work.
I hope this helps, i put a lot of thought into it and felt i should share.
Adam Barnett
I haven't checked the posts here for a few hours. Maybe one of you has already pointed this out.
I've created a feature page regarding Sean CLaNZeR's replication of the OC MPMM Magnet Motor.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:CLaNZeR (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:CLaNZeR)
"On Jan. 13, 2008, using a temporary stator magnet configuration, awaiting arrival of the proper stator magnets, CLaNZeR showed brief acceleration in his replication of "Overconfident's" all-magnet motor built by Al... As far as we can tell, this marks the first successful replication of the effect to any extent. "
Congratulations to him!
Again, if anyone else reports success (or failure), please send me an email <sterlingda {at} pureenergysystems.com>, so I can note it on the PESWiki site. (You're also welcome to update the pages yourself.)
I've subdivided the page into multiple sub pages:
- http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor)
- http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Latest (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Latest)
- http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Plans (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Plans)
- http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Theory (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Theory)
- http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications)
- http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Data (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Data)
- http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Forums (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Forums)
- http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Related_Sites (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Related_Sites)
Feel free to create a new page featuring replicas. You can use the CLaNZeR page as a template.
Doug Furr has had additional things come up to slow him down on his replication. He'll probably be done tomorrow. We've had a guy from a professional video outfit nearby volunteer to do the filming, which is very nice.
Sterling
Quote from: vipond50 on January 15, 2008, 12:20:35 PM
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 15, 2008, 10:05:24 AM
Quote from: vipond50 on January 15, 2008, 12:37:19 AM
@Crashuni1
Here's another Drawing of the Rotor Jason did an excellent job, but i alway work up my own so I can do amendments if needed.
Thanks Jason
Bill
I guess that is yet another way to interpret the 2.5" spacing of the rotor mags, you take it to mean 2.5" to one of the corners of the octagon, not the flat face.
Ok Ken & Group
What's the OD of the Rotor 2.875" or 3.0" ?
If measured other than other than what i show there is only 0.0440" of material left.
Bill
I think there is confusion here, I have seen 2.5" from the corner of the octagon in your drawing (which to me actually looks closer to the photographs), I have seen 2.5" to the center of the rotor magnet (the midle of the channel), and then on steorn someone thinks it should be 2.5" to the inside flat face of the octagon.
The poster that thinks it is 2.5" to the flat face of the octagon, also thinks the radius of the rotor should be 3" rather than 2.875".
When I look at the photos, the magnet channel (which is 0.25") looks about the same thickness as the thickest part of the material left on the outside of the rotor (the crescent shaped pieces), but it would be easy to miss a 1/16th difference in the photos.
It is hard to say, may have to study the photos closely.
Al seems to have disappeared from the steorn forums, so no info from the source right now!
Damn it we have been scammed again .. :( Gullible bunch aren't we .. bugger !!
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 15, 2008, 01:02:44 PM
Al seems to have disappeared from the steorn forums, so no info from the source right now!
He checked in yesterday and today... Steorn forum search (http://www.steorn.com/forum/search.php?PostBackAction=Search&Keywords=alsetalokin%3A&Type=Comments&btnSubmit=Search)
Quote from: jcims on January 15, 2008, 01:18:15 PM
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 15, 2008, 01:02:44 PM
Al seems to have disappeared from the steorn forums, so no info from the source right now!
He checked in yesterday and today... Steorn forum search (http://www.steorn.com/forum/search.php?PostBackAction=Search&Keywords=alsetalokin%3A&Type=Comments&btnSubmit=Search)
There was a post from Al today, and it was re posted here by Jag a page back or so...
alsetalokins last visit to the steorn forum was 13 hours ago.
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 15, 2008, 01:02:44 PM
Quote from: vipond50 on January 15, 2008, 12:20:35 PM
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 15, 2008, 10:05:24 AM
Quote from: vipond50 on January 15, 2008, 12:37:19 AM
@Crashuni1
Here's another Drawing of the Rotor Jason did an excellent job, but i alway work up my own so I can do amendments if needed.
Thanks Jason
Bill
I guess that is yet another way to interpret the 2.5" spacing of the rotor mags, you take it to mean 2.5" to one of the corners of the octagon, not the flat face.
Ok Ken & Group
What's the OD of the Rotor 2.875" or 3.0" ?
If measured other than other than what i show there is only 0.0440" of material left.
Bill
I think there is confusion here, I have seen 2.5" from the corner of the octagon in your drawing (which to me actually looks closer to the photographs), I have seen 2.5" to the center of the rotor magnet (the midle of the channel), and then on steorn someone thinks it should be 2.5" to the inside flat face of the octagon.
The poster that thinks it is 2.5" to the flat face of the octagon, also thinks the radius of the rotor should be 3" rather than 2.875".
When I look at the photos, the magnet channel (which is 0.25") looks about the same thickness as the thickest part of the material left on the outside of the rotor (the crescent shaped pieces), but it would be easy to miss a 1/16th difference in the photos.
It is hard to say, may have to study the photos closely.
Al seems to have disappeared from the steorn forums, so no info from the source right now!
OK, once again for those who missed my post regarding the rotor dimension issue. I have already addressed it here in the following post:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg70719.html#msg70719
In short, the OD of the rotor should be 2.875 in and the distance from the center of the disk to the inner edge of the octagon is 2.375 in. These dimensions are clearly marked in the blueprints I published.
EDIT: I meant OD of 5.75 inchesGod Bless,
Jason O
Hi Jason,
Surely you mean the rotor radius is 2.875 inches giving a rotor diameter of 5.75 inches or 146mm?
(I think everyone knew that anyway, just stating the obvious). ;)
Regards
Rob
Quote from: MeggerMan on January 15, 2008, 02:40:52 PM
Hi Jason,
Surely you mean the rotor radius is 2.875 inches giving a rotor diameter of 5.75 inches or 146mm?
(I think everyone knew that anyway, just stating the obvious). ;)
Regards
Rob
Oopps. Sorry, Yeah 5.75 inches. I edited the post!
FWIW, In respect of the bearings used for this project...
Don't overlook "Faraday's Paradox", where even a rotating magnet spinning at the same speed as a metal disc, with the disc intersecting the magnetic field, will still yield potential and therefore oppose the change that induces it (Lenz's law).
These constructions certainly don't bear particular resemblance to those demonstrating Faraday's experiment, although the rapid and significant multi-angular distortions in EM fields (particularly around the diametrically-polarised cylindrical magnets) would inevitably have some impact, albeit to varying degrees. Greater impact would be imposed by greater (metal) bearing width and thickness for example, so one area worthy of review if accurate reproductions persistently and inexplicably fail to sustain rotation ;)
FunkyJive
@CLaNZeR
hi,
looking at your last tape and comparing it with that of NikolaTelsa, I have noticed a problem of synchronization of the stator with the rotor magnetes.
I have the suspicion that an important part of the debugging is also the correct synchronization to elevated speed.
I think geometry and intensity of the field of the present magnets of the rotor is important to syncronize the rotor with stator.
It excuses the note and we hope that the things are all right.
... i got the impression after watching the first video in youtube that when he stoped the two smaller round magnets it sounded like a small electric motor kicked in and made the big rotor speed up.... i watched it many times, got the same impression each time. :-\
Quote... i got the impression after watching the first video in youtube that when he stoped the two smaller round magnets it sounded like a small electric motor kicked in and made the big rotor speed up.... i watched it many times, got the same impression each time.
Hi b0rg13
Presuming that it was not a faked video, even a pure-magnet motor would doubtless sound or behave like an electrically-powered motor if it were truly developing power and momentum.
Kudos to those trying to prove or dis-prove either way ;)
All the best,
FunkyJive
.. i get the impression he's a bit of a wiz with the truth (pun intended) ... hehehe
Hi Sean,
Your Stator Magnet Holders are looking very nice! ;D
The only encouragement I would give, is to keep the top of the Stators to about the bottom of the rotor magnets as we discussed yesterday. It would probably work above the rotor a hair just as well, but not on the same plane.
Fine tuning will be needed as you are well aware of.
I wish the machine shop milling the three of ours would hurry! LOL
Warm regards,
Bruce
Quote from: Craigy on January 15, 2008, 11:45:12 AM
hi sean , built a few more of my mk1 stators using 2 separate 4 x5 neos in a wheel. while they all look identical, i have one of the three that does a AGW spin with a tickle. just bear that in mind wen testing and test all stators for performance, some work better than others lol
That's interesting Craigy. One of the things I soon learnt in 4 decades of materials research is that there is no such thing as a uniform material and one always has to check for variability. For example a 1% difference in density between concrete samples can make an 8% difference in strength. I believe one of the main reasons people were not able to replicate P&F's cold fusion results is that different batches of palladium have different properties. P&F got lucky with their batch. It may take quite a bit of fiddling about to reproduce Alan's machine - Anyway, congratulations on getting AGW. That is the first step on the road to Rome.
Quote from: JAG on January 15, 2008, 07:05:47 AM
posted at the Steorn forum
CommentAuthoroldHorseface CommentTime1 hour ago edited permalink
I have build a quick and funky new system where I get a short burst of acceleration, then a sustained speed for 10 seconds, then it slows down to stop in 20 seconds.
My stator is the same one from my Lego setup, but my rotor is 12" in diameter with 12 magnets facing outward alternating north-south. (unlike the OCAL system or my last Lego setup)
I think if anyone is getting AGW lock, you got it happening, you just need to reduce friction and tweek your alignment.
As AL said, the distance between rotor and stator is citical and different for every type of system. Anyone building a test jig should make that distance variable.
I am going out to Burbank tomorrow to get more magnets (disc neos) and try some more things.
I have seen energy from permanent magnets! I think I'm going to cry.
Posted at http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:AuthoroldHorseface (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:AuthoroldHorseface)
If anyone has contact with this person, could you ask him to post photos, video, contact info? I'd like to add it to the above page if that's okay.
sterlingda {at} pureenergysystems.com
Can anyone else get to Steorn? is it down? oooo MIB? ;)
Quote from: geodan on January 15, 2008, 05:12:44 PM
Can anyone else get to Steorn? is it down? oooo MIB? ;)
Their server is offline.
Quote from: geodan on January 15, 2008, 05:12:44 PM
Can anyone else get to Steorn? is it down? oooo MIB? ;)
Down for me too (London). I suspect it's overloaded.
Down in the Emerald Isle, too... (Hi Lads!)
I don't know where else to go!!!
(I'll try not to go on tangents... Howdy all!
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer
Quote from: Dirtfarmer on January 15, 2008, 05:21:20 PM
I don't know where else to go!!!
(I'll try not to go on tangents... Howdy all!
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer
I for one am going to try to catch up on my day job... :D
Hey Grimer, who won the last post?
Feels like we've all popped out of a warp bubble to land balanced on some toadstool in the middle of a swamp...
Funny thing (for me at least) was that they seemed to go down (as near as I can estimate) in the very same minute I attempted to connect - for the first time today... :o
OSPMM could do with links... (don't hit me)...
{edit} The holding page is at once magnificent and hilarious...
I've just tried pinging Steorn's listed primary and secondary server addresses and they're both working fine (ave ping response for each packet consistently just above the 100ms ballpark)...
Pinging 205.178.190.40 with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 205.178.190.40: bytes=32 time=106ms TTL=235
Reply from 205.178.190.40: bytes=32 time=109ms TTL=235
Reply from 205.178.190.40: bytes=32 time=106ms TTL=235
Reply from 205.178.190.40: bytes=32 time=110ms TTL=235
Ping statistics for 205.178.190.40:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 106ms, Maximum = 110ms, Average = 107ms
Pinging 205.178.189.40 with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 205.178.189.40: bytes=32 time=114ms TTL=235
Reply from 205.178.189.40: bytes=32 time=111ms TTL=235
Reply from 205.178.189.40: bytes=32 time=109ms TTL=235
Reply from 205.178.189.40: bytes=32 time=127ms TTL=235
Ping statistics for 205.178.189.40:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 109ms, Maximum = 127ms, Average = 115ms
Incidentally, Steorn's .co.uk domain name (they're listed as the registrant) is now listed as "Registration Required" as it expired 5th January.
Registrar:
Key-Systems GmbH [Tag = KEY-SYSTEMS-DE]
URL: http://www.Key-Systems.net
Relevant dates:
Registered on: 05-Jan-2006
Renewal date: 05-Jan-2008
Last updated: 22-Aug-2007
Registration status:
Renewal required.
I would have thought this URL would have been worth hanging onto - particularly as URL's are almost insignificantly cheap.
Hmmm... :-\
Funkyjive
Good call on moving your stuff out of your Steorn account OC!
will it come back up?
Quote from: Dirtfarmer on January 15, 2008, 05:21:20 PM
I don't know where else to go!!!
(I'll try not to go on tangents... Howdy all!
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer
fizzx.com
Quote from: canam101 on January 15, 2008, 05:39:17 PM
Quote from: Dirtfarmer on January 15, 2008, 05:21:20 PM
I don't know where else to go!!!
(I'll try not to go on tangents... Howdy all!
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer
fizzx.com
Thanks! Forgot all about Fizzx.
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer (Matt)
I'd just made a post about mythbusters replicating Whipmag-maybe that caused the site to explode :o
I own Orbo.es not sure if it worth re-newing tho..
Quotewill it come back up?
Anyone's guess, though notably Steorn's .com and .co.uk URL's were both pointing to the same server addresses :-\
FunkyJive
the spdc is down as well
There is still construction information here http://www.ospmm.org/whipmag/
Quote from: loreman on January 15, 2008, 05:43:11 PM
I'd just made a post about mythbusters replicating Whipmag-maybe that caused the site to explode :o
And I thought it was me suggesting the macro-parallell to quantum effects, eg: spin magnetic moment in the stator (ala electron), as well as relative orbital angular momentum, And that two intersecting arcs of different radii may be just the trick to display the machinery down there... (Bohr's minimum energy state, quantisation, Fermi etc...)
Earth, moon, Sun, solar system, nucleus, electrons...
Kablooey! (Hey, I said I was scaring myself :o
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer (Alright, there's that tangent..) EDIT: (...so to speak..)
I hope there's plenty of copies of the replication stuff around
Just checking in. Not familiar with Fizzx or Tangent. :-[
Got my crappy mock up vid assembled 76mb. Will put up on you-tube in a couple of hours G2G till then.
BBL
Harvey
Quote from: Craigy on January 15, 2008, 05:49:57 PM
the spdc is down as well
It's curious, the Steorn stuff does go down quite frequently, but its normally the weekend, the guess is obligatory restart after upgrade, but cannot say I've seen it offline midweek before.
Quote from: loreman on January 15, 2008, 05:43:11 PM
I'd just made a post about mythbusters replicating Whipmag-maybe that caused the site to explode :o
Where did you post that?? How do you know they are going to try and replicate it?
- Jason O
Hi All
Try this link http://freeenergytruth.blogspot.com/
thanks
HT
Jason,
I don't. It was just one of my silly, jokey posts. Just after I made it, the site went down.
I hope this is just a technical problem, and not a "commercial" closure of the forum because of Whipmag.
Maybe one of the Irish here could ring Steorn tomorrow your time and ask them?
As RB said, the Steorn site does go down from time to time. And whenever it does, there is speculation that maybe this time it's for good. Then it always comes back up. It will this time, too. But it's nearly midnight there, so it might not be back up for several hours.
Quote from: Grimer on January 15, 2008, 11:04:33 AM
Quote from: Jinis on January 15, 2008, 10:24:30 AM
QuoteUmmm, not OU?
Jag had the right idea, the right appreciation of things. He wrote:
ooooooooooI have seen energy from permanent magnets! I think I'm going to cry.
Grimer,
Just so we are clear...those aren't my words. They are Old Horseface's words. I just copied the post over here. I've still got splinters on my arse from sitting on the fence.
JAG
Quote from: JAG on January 15, 2008, 06:50:01 PM
Quote from: Grimer on January 15, 2008, 11:04:33 AM
Quote from: Jinis on January 15, 2008, 10:24:30 AM
QuoteUmmm, not OU?
Jag had the right idea, the right appreciation of things. He wrote:
ooooooooooI have seen energy from permanent magnets! I think I'm going to cry.
Grimer,
Just so we are clear...those aren't my words. They are Old Horseface's words. I just copied the post over here. I've still got splinters on my arse from sitting on the fence.
JAG
They should be making you cry. :oThat bleedin' 'urts ;)
Quote from: loreman on January 15, 2008, 05:43:11 PM
I'd just made a post about mythbusters replicating Whipmag-maybe that caused the site to explode :o
Don't we all remember what happened last time Mythbusters "replicated" something from the free-energy world (Bedini's Free-energy generator, original design from 1984) they purposely sabotaged the experiment and discredited the inventor.
Sadly masses who watch crap that Mythbusters broadcast believe it to be true and authentic. After all, it's show-TV and it's never about the truth but about popularity...sigh.
dupe
Quote from: amigo on January 15, 2008, 08:02:27 PM
Don't we all remember what happened last time Mythbusters "replicated" something from the free-energy world (Bedini's Free-energy generator, original design from 1984) they purposely sabotaged the experiment and discredited the inventor.
Sadly masses who watch crap that Mythbusters broadcast believe it to be true and authentic. After all, it's show-TV and it's never about the truth but about popularity...sigh.
Thats fascinating, can you point me to a working Bedini motor?, not had much success with my replication.
Quote from: amigo on January 15, 2008, 08:03:20 PM
dupe
The appearance of identical, repeated information in a database. Dupe is short for "duplicate".
And that is precisely what they are doing. ;D
"Sadly masses who watch crap that Mythbusters broadcast believe it to be true and authentic."
I watch it occasionally because I find it amusing. I repeat, my comment about mythbusters on the Steorn site was a joke.
Finally got some shop time. I know it is not an exact replication. Not sure an exact replication is even possible if Al does not even know the strength of his magnets which will make a difference. Only have one more stator to make but with just playing with what I have I have formed a couple of ideas of why it may be working. I am not sure how many of you have played with making PMM. My first one years ago was on a 12 inch round wood circle that was 1 1/2 inch thick. I glued a bunch of steel angle iron pieces to a bunch of radio shaft large rectangular ceramic magnets. I was able to get it to spin with another magnet by hand and only moving it about 1/2 inch. I never figured out a way to replace my hand with a mechanical system. I think that is what these round stator magnets do. They pulse the rotor by rotating. BTW a great way to get it up to speed is with an air compressor wand as some of you have done. I also found it spins better one direction (CCW) then the other (CW). Not sure why.. Lots of playing to do before I get more shop time. At least it is a start..
@All,
I see in http://www.ospmm.com/whipmag/ the magnets on the rotor are arranged NS SN NS SN NS SN NS SN. Was that discussed before, is that the right arrangement for the working motor in the video?
I like watching Mythbusters cause of the cool stuff they make, only seen the Bedini clip on Youtube though.
Here is a second picture.. Can I join the replicators club now ;D
nope... ya gotta spin it up, accelerate and maintain speed for 7+ hrs... ;)
Quote from: hydrocontrol on January 15, 2008, 08:50:23 PM
Here is a second picture.. Can I join the replicators club now ;D
Real nice work hydrcontrol, you joined the first moment you started your replication, I'm really envying all those with the resources to make such neat setups.
Quote from: hydrocontrol on January 15, 2008, 08:50:23 PM
Here is a second picture.. Can I join the replicators club now ;D
Nice Hydro, I like the slots for the stators.
Is that a Rubbermaid cutting board for raw material?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 15, 2008, 08:48:44 PM
@All,
I see in http://www.ospmm.com/whipmag/ the magnets on the rotor are arranged NS SN NS SN NS SN NS SN. Was that discussed before, is that the right arrangement for the working motor in the video?
That was my understanding.
From what I can see in the many videos (original, lightened, slowed down, even a parody!), that is what it looks like.
Quote from: RunningBare on January 15, 2008, 09:00:18 PM
Quote from: hydrocontrol on January 15, 2008, 08:50:23 PM
Here is a second picture.. Can I join the replicators club now ;D
Real nice work hydrcontrol, you joined the first moment you started your replication, I'm really envying all those with the resources to make such neat setups.
Thanks. I bettered my pathetic machining skills by learning how to use the rotary table for the brigeport mill correctly. Still has some flaws. I had to wrap a bit a tape around a couple of rotor magnets to keep them wedged in place. The stators can stand some improvement. The bearings I used are smooth and rated for 56,000 RPM but you can feel the effect of the stator magnets on them. I think I will try to put a few steel washers under the stator magnet to kill the magnetic field to the bearing. Not sure if it will work but is a easy try. I used a Rubbermaid cutting board for the materials. A roller blade bearing for the rotor. Using a air compressor I can get it spinning fast. So fast I am afraid the magnets are going to fly off. I got a Tach on order. I am also looking at a way to computerize tach readings from a couple of points. This is an interesting project and even if it does not work at least I am improving my machining skills a bit. Still wish I had a CNC machine like others here ;) Anyway I should have another stator done tomorrow night along with the Aluminum parts.
Quote from: amigo on January 15, 2008, 08:02:27 PM
Don't we all remember what happened last time Mythbusters "replicated" something from the free-energy world (Bedini's Free-energy generator, original design from 1984) they purposely sabotaged the experiment and discredited the inventor.
Thank you. I was waiting for someone to bring that up again so I could state that:
I once loved Adam and Jamie. If they ever rushed through some episode and the fans let them know via email then they would often revisit the topic and try it again. This was the ONLY EPISODE that they asked for NO EMAIL on a topic,... my favorite topic. Wouldn't you know it, the first time that I was about to write to them about anything and it was deemed VERBOTEN before I could reach my keyboard.
On second thought, it is probably better that they never revisit this topic. We are dealing with a metastable female force that requires patience and finesse. She can ignore you your whole life or rip your heart out in one moment. She cares not that your precious episode goes to air in a week, or even two. They downloaded some plans off the internet, they rushed them together, nothing worked, and now they never wish to speak of it again. HA! I hope they never try again. They just do not have the time:
"It'll never work. We'll never make it. We're doomed."--Glum, Gulliver's Travels, Banana SplitsMYTHBUSTERS: Strike one more item off my short and shrinking list of, "must see tee vee!" :P
Hydro
any chance you could post smaller pic's
Ive only got dial up :-[
Den
Mark has been told that the bearings for the rotor are to big and that they have to be changed to the 1/2" bearings to get the same result as the video on youtube. We all have our doubts about this, but Mark found a source for free material for the rotor and is making three new ones tonight. Not to worry, Mark said he can make a rotor in around one hour. Mark is one of the most gifted machinists I have ever known and our group is lucky to have him aboard. His contributions to design have been very valuable also. We want to have the motor as close to a perfect copy as possible to the one in the video.
This bearing change will accomplish that.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Quote from: cub3 on January 15, 2008, 10:09:11 PM
Hydro
any chance you could post smaller pic's
Ive only got dial up :-[
Den
Sorry about that.. Changed to 800x600. Should be a bit smaller and faster.
Quote from: Butch on January 15, 2008, 10:45:33 PM
(Snip)
We all have our doubts about this,
(Snip)
We want to have the motor as close to a perfect copy as possible to the one in the video.
This bearing change will accomplish that.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
I doubt it, if what I saw in the first video is any indication. You guys might try spinning the stator magnet faster than the rotor, this next time. ;)
So, we all have our doubts about this, but probably not the same ones you do. ;)
Good luck to your group,
Bruce
So what happened to CLaNZeR (Sean). He posted on his site http://www.overunity.org.uk
that he got the correct magnets and posted a video of it working (?) or almost working and now all the videos on his site are dead and no updates. Hope he is okay..
Quote from: hydrocontrol on January 15, 2008, 11:03:28 PM
So what happened to CLaNZeR (Sean). He posted on his site http://www.overunity.org.uk
that he got the correct magnets and posted a video of it working (?) or almost working and now all the videos on his site are dead and no updates. Hope he is okay..
Maybe we are eating too much of his bandwidth so he had to take them down? It's strange because when you click on a video it just opens a blank page for me, normally a plugin would kick in or an external player...
He posts his videos here.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=overunityorguk
Seems like he's a lancer guy. ;) I'm a civic guy myself, but like lancers.
R.I.P Steorn
Thanks hydro,
I should not at this time but for all
a distraction
How does one move 30ton blocks by oneself
http://www.freeenergynews.com/Directory/CoralCastle/index.html
His explaniaton of magnetic current.
Magnetic Current
By Edward Leedskalnin
http://www.labyrinthina.com/ed.html
Regards Den
I put the vid up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZglbWM8j0_o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZglbWM8j0_o)
Its a real mess, turned 90 degrees - sound didn't convert right on most of it so I had to narrate some the beginning and end.
I don't see anything special in it that most of you don't already know but you might spot something I missed or discounted.
I've got some strobe shots a few minutes ago but the frame interactions are bad. I'll convert it and stick it up anyway. Some may be able to get a couple good frames out of it.
Any word on the Steorn Forum?
Cheers,
Harvey
Quote from: hydrocontrol on January 15, 2008, 11:03:28 PM
So what happened to CLaNZeR (Sean). He posted on his site http://www.overunity.org.uk
that he got the correct magnets and posted a video of it working (?) or almost working and now all the videos on his site are dead and no updates. Hope he is okay..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc1K6WhsUHg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc1K6WhsUHg)
Now for the Rotor Magnets ;-)
I'm not sure that Sony will be happy that you're advertising for them! :P
You make a couple of very fascinating points, Harvey. You say that the repulsion from the rotor is palpable when the stator is stationary (and that it always chooses the repulsion face of the stator magnet in that state) yet when the stator is moving - the rotor attracts it. Is that the case regardless whether the stator is moving gear-wise or anti-gear-wise?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 15, 2008, 08:48:44 PM
@All,
I see in http://www.ospmm.com/whipmag/ the magnets on the rotor are arranged NS SN NS SN NS SN NS SN. Was that discussed before, is that the right arrangement for the working motor in the video?
Maybe that is just the trick that makes this thing work!
That arrangement creates 4 virtual N poles and 4 virtual S poles on the rotor and the interaction occurs always between three magnets - two on the rotor and one on the stator. This also causes the 4:1 ratio for the stator and the rotor.
Some theories suggest that magnetism has three aspects and maybe a practical working setup needs to have interaction of three magnets:
http://www.athenapolis.com/NN_MotorintheMagnet.htm and http://www.athenapolis.com/NN_FindingtheMotor.htm
http://www.fdp.nu/free_energy.asp?book=90
Hello
How did you come by this?
Is that Desertphile ?? :D
Quote from: blue_energy on January 16, 2008, 12:25:58 AM
I'm not sure that Sony will be happy that you're advertising for them! :P
You make a couple of very fascinating points, Harvey. You say that the repulsion from the rotor is palpable when the stator is stationary (and that it always chooses the repulsion face of the stator magnet in that state) yet when the stator is moving - the rotor attracts it. Is that the case regardless whether the stator is moving gear-wise or anti-gear-wise?
Did I say Sony? Oh No :o its a Sanyo :P
Yes, the attraction is there during both GW & AGW sync. Drat !!! I was going to purchase a spring scale today when I was out and forgot...Don't get old, it's not worth the 10% discount at your favorite restaurant.
I guess I can just fabricate one. I wan't to see the difference, I think the AGW has less pull than the GW sync but I need something better than fingers to gauge it.
I've noticed the AGW has a better chance of sync'ing if its deeper in the field, but once it starts it needs to be pulled away some for smoother operation. GW sync has a wide range of area that it will operate in. I tried to keep the two fields centered in the Y axis.
My test pieces have huge losses built in. Its encouraging to see that some of the effects Al has experienced can be duplicated even with such a varied approach as I have used.
I'll be back after the Strobe uploads.
Cheers,
Harvey
OC,
Do you expect Alsetalokin will come here now that the Steorn forum is apparently defunct ?
Or is Al permanently AWOL ?
Cheers,
Dean
The stroboscopic shots are disappointing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-McMAqt04Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-McMAqt04Q)
I went through 50MB of frames and picked out the ones clear enough to ID the parts involved.
This was a GW 'sync' and as the strobes show, it was far from sync'd. There is obviously a lot of shear and possibly even some of those vortices Faraday & OC have envisioned.
Tomorrow I'll run some dual trace tests and confirm what I see here. Also, I'm going to try out my Camcorder, I'm pretty sure it has a 25K FPS setting but I will have to wait a few days to get it uploaded as the card for that is not installed atm.
Strobe Test: :-\
Cheers,
Harvey
8)
Quote
I'll be back after the Strobe uploads.
Cheers,
Harvey
That will be really interesting, because there is a lot of wonder how the magnet on the stator is oriented in the AGW lock on the closest pas of the rotor magnet.
I think they are N to N and S to S, so the magnets are weaken at that point.
Svein
Steorn's online again.
I thought the following post from the fizzx.com forum might be of interest to overunity forum members who would like to know more about the builder of the OCAL device.
It is taken from a thread discussing the existence or otherwise of a Steorn Jury. As you can see it was written just before the abortive Steorn demonstration at the Kinetica Museum, London.
==============================================================
http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=1564&highlight=#1564
alsetalokin - Mon Jul 02 - 2007 - 3:31 pm
==============================================================
Let's see--a number of points to be addressed.
The person to whom I referred was contracted and funded by a wealthy private individual to set up and administer a laboratory to subsidize, examine and hopefully confirm claims and research proposals in the area loosely termed "free energy", alternative propulsion, and anti-gravity. During the two or three years that the funding lasted, I worked closely in conjunction with this person. We examined quite a few claims and devices in the areas listed, funded several inventors, and paid for visits from several other internationally known inventors of these kinds of devices. Unfortunately and quite disappointingly, none of the projects we examined or funded produced positive results. It is important to note here that we were NOT set up to debunk the claims; on the contrary we were trying hard to get to something real and workable. Unfortunately, since we were/are scientists first and foremost, we had to apply the scientific method in an unbiased manner, and so we were able to identify fraud, prevarication, and error many times, but never any workable devices.
I have mentioned the jury member before, in an old post somewhere, so this info isn't new here, it is just an expansion in answer to the original question at the head of this thread.
It isn't pretentious garbage; I haven't come across anyone with anything like the credentials of the person referred to in this area, with one exception: my most recent employer, who also must remain nameless. You of course can believe whatever you will, but I have been fortunate enough to have been actually making my living working in the "free energy" field for over 7 years now, and as long as the checks keep clearing, I can't agree with the "pretentious garbage" characterization.
Nor, of course, am I Sean's stooge. From the experience I have accumulated, my position is clear: Steorn must almost certainly be wrong about their claim, for whatever reason, be it fraud, error, or some unfathomable third type of reason.
And, actually, it can be a bit complicated to debunk some types of free-energy devices. Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing so darn many of them on Youtube! Since many of the devices and systems (like certain "cold-fusion" cells, for example) produce small amounts of apparent excess energy, in rather unusual and hard-to-duplicate conditions, real tests of some of these devices may require fabrication and calibration of new types of equipment, expensive and extensive series of control experimentation, travel expenses for the principal researchers involved, and etc. I have detailed some examples of what I mean in other posts, for example the story of excess kinetic energy that took over 10 years to debunk finally.
exco is right that a PMM would probably be easy to debunk; unfortunately I have never been presented with one (although Minato did promise to bring one to our lab, he "forgot" it in Japan and we didn't get to see it). Most of the real labs working in this area (yes, there are several) never get to see anything quite so blatant--because, as exco says, they don't actually work.
Far more common are the devices that are claimed to produce slight increments in energy, slight decrements in weight or mass, slight anomalous thrusts, etc. and these claims are harder to deal with fairly.
==============================================================
It is ironic, but entirely understandable, that Alan should be the person to discover the phenomena embodied in the OCAL device.
Quote from: hydrocontrol on January 15, 2008, 11:03:28 PM
So what happened to CLaNZeR (Sean). He posted on his site http://www.overunity.org.uk
that he got the correct magnets and posted a video of it working (?) or almost working and now all the videos on his site are dead and no updates. Hope he is okay..
I did an update yesterday a couple of threads back and also updated in my forums at http://www.overunity.org.uk
After spending 12 hours in the workshop I needed some sleep hehe
The Videos on the site are down for a bit as trying to keep the bandwidth at a managable level. They are on YouTube to try take the bandwidth away a bit LOL!
Back too it this end with new Rotor I cut yesterday.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: hydrocontrol on January 15, 2008, 08:47:09 PM
Finally got some shop time. I know it is not an exact replication. Not sure an exact replication is even possible if Al does not even know the strength of his magnets which will make a difference. Only have one more stator to make but with just playing with what I have I have formed a couple of ideas of why it may be working. I am not sure how many of you have played with making PMM. My first one years ago was on a 12 inch round wood circle that was 1 1/2 inch thick. I glued a bunch of steel angle iron pieces to a bunch of radio shaft large rectangular ceramic magnets. I was able to get it to spin with another magnet by hand and only moving it about 1/2 inch. I never figured out a way to replace my hand with a mechanical system. I think that is what these round stator magnets do. They pulse the rotor by rotating. BTW a great way to get it up to speed is with an air compressor wand as some of you have done. I also found it spins better one direction (CCW) then the other (CW). Not sure why.. Lots of playing to do before I get more shop time. At least it is a start..
Good work mate, Your Rig is looking really nice.
Cheers
Sean.
Has anyone seen any update info from Alsetalokin on the Steorn forum lately?
It looks like he left the scene.
Quote from: robbie47 on January 16, 2008, 08:13:41 AM
Has anyone seen any update info from Alsetalokin on the Steorn forum lately?
It looks like he left the scene.
Considering that there has been no "Steorn forum" until a short time ago, and the fact that the man sleeps and works a full time job, you may not hear from him until tonight or so.
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: Grimer on January 15, 2008, 04:08:39 PM
Quote from: Craigy on January 15, 2008, 11:45:12 AM
hi sean , built a few more of my mk1 stators using 2 separate 4 x5 neos in a wheel. while they all look identical, i have one of the three that does a AGW spin with a tickle. just bear that in mind wen testing and test all stators for performance, some work better than others lol
That's interesting Craigy. One of the things I soon learnt in 4 decades of materials research is that there is no such thing as a uniform material and one always has to check for variability. For example a 1% difference in density between concrete samples can make an 8% difference in strength. I believe one of the main reasons people were not able to replicate P&F's cold fusion results is that different batches of palladium have different properties. P&F got lucky with their batch. It may take quite a bit of fiddling about to reproduce Alan's machine - Anyway, congratulations on getting AGW. That is the first step on the road to Rome.
If you look at the resistive characteristics of ionic fluids, ie, fluid glass, the resistance decreases with higher frequencies (stepping away from DC current into AC current).
to enable OU with Cold fusion, you have to go to the sub-harmonic frequencies (of the main molecular frequencies) that also correlate to the DC-AC resistance curved trace of fluid palladium. Watch for it's ionic polarity as well, with respects to accurizing the shape of the AC component, as a secondary point for fine tuning. (Bedini, other electrical equivalents, etc) This is due to the fact that the atomic structure itself, is a stabilized gyroscopic vortex in-vortex out..based on intersecting 2-d stress fields that are in oscillation. The 3-d universe is a vectoral resultant of these intersecting fields. Obviously the fields stabilize the atomic structure.
If you head for a DC field/current with the 'loosening/resonant' effect AC field of the correct frequency superimposed upon it, you have your desired overunity.
Basically, it's almost as straightforward as hooking up a sine generator to a DC system and having a slow of sweep of AC running on top of your DC..and then noting the anomalous points..and then working on those.
Remember, it's an electric universe, so potential counts for more than current, when it comes to temporal aspects and thus localized molecular polarization. You are enacting resonant polarization..into conduction, or egress of energy.
It would be very informative to have a video showing the rotor RPM for a stretch before and after reversal from GW to AGW takes place. If there is such a video, apart form Alan Setalokin's, could someone give me the link, please. :-*
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 16, 2008, 06:45:15 AM
Good work mate, Your Rig is looking really nice.
Cheers
Sean.
Not near as nice as your CNC stuff. Yours I consider an exact replication. Mine is a gallant attempt. ::) All I have access to is a 40 year old Bridgeport mill and a 40 year old vacuum tube controlled Monarch Lathe. Lots of hand cranking time.. ::) On top of that my budget only allows so much in 'fun' materials like special magnets.. Still I plod along. :D Your videos show a real effect with the syncing so I am getting a better feel that Al's work may be on the up and up and not a hoax. It is apparent that this setup is going to need a lot of 'fine' tuning. Not an easy throw it together and it works right away job. I suspect it will be a 'throw it together' job after we figure out that it really needs mechanical gear syncing which would sync it all the time instead of hit and miss hand/air spin syncing. Anyways that is down the road.
If you get bored I have another idea for a PPM that would be super easy to make with your CNC machine and I think you have all the parts.
Later, TomG
Quote from: Grimer on January 16, 2008, 09:42:46 AM
It would be very informative to have a video showing the rotor RPM for a stretch before and after reversal from GW to AGW takes place. If there is such a video, apart form Alan Setalokin's, could someone give me the link, please. :-*
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising - Fair as the moon. Bright as the sun - Terrible as an army set in battle array.
Truth is not subject to opinion: otherwise, there would be no such thing as "science", or "fact", or "objectivity".
It's always good to remember that in truth, there is no such thing as a fact, none whatsoever. All is theory. If one expects that 'man' created 'laws' are going to lead to a more complete understanding of the universe, they've got another thing coming. That point alone, is the unadulterated history of science itself. Time and time again, the only fact that has held, is that all is theory and no such thing as a fact exists. If one continually moves upon the idea of facts being everywhere... they merely end up at the same brick wall as everyone else. One can use science as a map, but ultimately, that's all it is. We can only suspect that over 90% of the map is blank, for example. Objectivity is a fool's game, with the 'human being' in the chain. It'll never happen, and has been shown to never have happened, in the long run. The scientist has been shown to be one of the worst when it comes to understanding the basics of the idea of the injection of the scientist himself within the context of the experiment at hand. Ie, great at linear thinking, extremely poor at the art of lateral thinking and self analysis, or basic psychology (class 101--or further). This constitutes a loss of the other 50% of the points that balance out reality.
When the basic analysis of the oscillating 2-d stress fields in interaction creating the dual vortex that is an atomic structure in flux-balance..when that is complete as a mental exercise..it becomes clear that objectivity is woefully inadequate as a descriptor and point within science. :) :)
Since Alsetalokin mentioned that exact distance of the stator magnet to the rotor is quite important, I wonder how important slight differences between the individual rotor magnets strenghts are.
But how to determine the differences in the strength between the used rotor magnets?
[edit] maybe attached method could be used. Assuming that the spread in weight is neglectable.
Not sure whether the resolution will be sufficient though.
QuoteSince Alsetalokin mentioned that exact distance of the stator magnet to the rotor is quite important, I wonder how important slight differences between the individual rotor magnets strenghts are.
But how to determine the differences in the strength between the used rotor magnets?
And even more to the point: differences between the rated strengths and sizes of the magnets? Most of the rigs I've read about seem to be using N42 magnets for both stators and rotor whereas, reportedly, Al used N35 magnets for his rotor mags.
Quote from: blue_energy on January 16, 2008, 01:24:36 PM
QuoteSince Alsetalokin mentioned that exact distance of the stator magnet to the rotor is quite important, I wonder how important slight differences between the individual rotor magnets strenghts are.
But how to determine the differences in the strength between the used rotor magnets?
And even more to the point: differences between the rated strengths and sizes of the magnets? Most of the rigs I've read about seem to be using N42 magnets for both stators and rotor whereas, reportedly, Al used N35 magnets for his rotor mags.
That is true. However, the difference in strength can be compensated for by adjusting the distance between the stator and rotor. In my setup, I will simply adjust the height of the rotor on the axle to fine tune the distance.
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 16, 2008, 02:19:48 PM
That is true. However, the difference in strength can be compensated for by adjusting the distance between the stator and rotor. In my setup, I will simply adjust the height of the rotor on the axle to fine tune the distance.
This will only help to compensate for the avarange rotor magnet strength, but not if the 8 rotor magnets have a significant spread in strength.
Prophmaji wrote:
QuoteIf you head for a DC field/current with the 'loosening/resonant' effect AC field of the correct frequency superimposed upon it, you have your desired overunity.
I personally believe that there could be substance in this - i.e. finding the right "resonance". Such an example would be where if one were attempting to shatter a glass (overcoming the molecular bond that holds it all together), then only the precise pitch or near-harmonic will create sympathetic resonance in the glass, with the minimum of SPL to do so. Not a perfect analogy however, though an appreciably simple one.
The Bedini principle operates on what he terms the "sling-shot" effect with respect to molecules forming the electrolyte of a battery, citing a nominal frequency range of something between 1MHz and 6MHz for a lead-acid battery. At resonance he claims that the battery will effectively charge itself.
Self-charging of a battery would suggest a negative resistance in the battery - where a negative resistor is central to the observations claimed with the Bearden MEG (Motionless Electromagnetic Generator).
And then the Adam's Motor, based upon the back-EMF generated by a coil, where although current reduces and voltage increases (theoretically yielding the same envelope power with a voltage and current trade-off), a fast transient spike would represent the fast edge of a high-frequency waveform.
Perhaps the Adams motor would then suggest similarity with the principles of the Gaussian Gun, where a slow approaching magnet speeds up under EM influence and yielding considerable propulsion to the foremost ball bearing of equivalent material, weight, and size.
Finally, I'll add the known effect of 27GHz where water molecules will separate "easily" into their hydrogen and oxygen constituents - though doesn't really fall within the scope of the home experimenter :)
The permanent magnet motor here may not appear to be similar to the above inventions where electronic switching is taking place, but transcending just beyond a point of maximum repulsion between the cylindrical and bar magnets would result in recovery of the field shape considerably faster than the approaching state of repulsion.
Unless magnetic flux (i.e. not just its effects) is comprehensively understood, there appears to be a common theme in the various inventions and their claims, and the ever-present possibility of something we have yet to discover ;)
FunkyJive
Quote from: blue_energy on January 16, 2008, 01:24:36 PM
QuoteSince Alsetalokin mentioned that exact distance of the stator magnet to the rotor is quite important, I wonder how important slight differences between the individual rotor magnets strenghts are.
But how to determine the differences in the strength between the used rotor magnets?
And even more to the point: differences between the rated strengths and sizes of the magnets? Most of the rigs I've read about seem to be using N42 magnets for both stators and rotor whereas, reportedly, Al used N35 magnets for his rotor mags.
blue_energy
Just for the record that was an assumption on Al's part. He was guessing that was the gauss value. It funny being in an R&D lab the magnets could have not been compared to an known mag spec or metered to help tie down the gauss value.
Don't take this as a poke toward Al, he really did a good job reporting, but i feel that he was getting pressured by his boss or somebody relating to this discovery.
Regards
Bill
Quote from: robbie47 on January 16, 2008, 02:33:36 PM
This will only help to compensate for the avarange rotor magnet strength, but not if the 8 rotor magnets have a significant spread in strength.
Anyone have a good idea for "home" testing of a set of magnets, to make it easy to select a group of magnets that have similar strength?
Something like the method proposed by robbie47 above?
Using robbie47's method I guess you could pick one magnet to always be the bottom magnet, and then pop the rest of your magnets in and check the repulsion distance and see if there is any significant difference? (significant would have to be defined here).
Now how to do this for the ring magnets???
Quote from: vipond50 on January 16, 2008, 03:07:06 PM
Quote from: blue_energy on January 16, 2008, 01:24:36 PM
QuoteSince Alsetalokin mentioned that exact distance of the stator magnet to the rotor is quite important, I wonder how important slight differences between the individual rotor magnets strenghts are.
But how to determine the differences in the strength between the used rotor magnets?
And even more to the point: differences between the rated strengths and sizes of the magnets? Most of the rigs I've read about seem to be using N42 magnets for both stators and rotor whereas, reportedly, Al used N35 magnets for his rotor mags.
blue_energy
Just for the record that was an assumption on Al's part. He was guessing that was the gauss value. It funny being in an R&D lab the magnets could have not been compared to an known mag spec or metered to help tie down the gauss value.
Don't take this as a poke toward Al, he really did a good job reporting, but i feel that he was getting pressured by his boss or somebody relating to this discovery.
Regards
Bill
This is off the Steorn Forum by OC
"Comments re Al's prototype:
1) stator magnets are N42s
2) rotor magnets are unknown but less powerful than N42s according to Al, guess is N35
Hope this helps
Bill
You know, to be honest, I wouldn't worry all that much about the minute difference between the rotor magnets' strength. As long as you bought them all from the same place in one batch, chances are that they should all be pretty much the same field strength. Most NdFeB magnets are sintered and magnetized in large batches which means that they should all have equal field strength. The only acception to this would be if you stressed one of the magnets after recieving it.
You're more likely to have larger tolerance errors in the machining of the rotor and stators than in the field strength of the mags. I'd concentrate more on the tuning between the rotor and stator magnets.
God Bless,
Jason O
Quoteblue_energy
Just for the record that was an assumption on Al's part. He was guessing that was the gauss value. It funny being in an R&D lab the magnets could have not been compared to an known mag spec or metered to help tie down the gauss value.
Don't take this as a poke toward Al, he really did a good job reporting, but i feel that he was getting pressured by his boss or somebody relating to this discovery.
Regards
Bill
Hi Bill,
Ah... I didn't realize that. Then, we still don't know a critical piece of data relating to replication. In Clanzer's design, the stator assembly can be backed off in order to reduce the effect of the magnetic fields upon each other (which seemed smart the first time I saw it, but just gets smarter all the time - that Clanzer is a practical guy!). But, in other designs the distance is set. I'm not an expert on magnetics (actually - faaar from it) but I suspect that raising the stators is not the same thing as backing them off.
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 16, 2008, 03:27:18 PM
You know, to be honest, I wouldn't worry all that much about the minute difference between the rotor magnets' strength. As long as you bought them all from the same place in one batch, chances are that they should all be pretty much the same field strength. Most NdFeB magnets are sintered and magnetized in large batches which means that they should all have equal field strength. The only acception to this would be if you stressed one of the magnets after recieving it.
You're more likely to have larger tolerance errors in the machining of the rotor and stators than in the field strength of the mags. I'd concentrate more on the tuning between the rotor and stator magnets.
God Bless,
Jason O
Hello Jason
Yes I concur, but getting certified magnets in the so called spec and the cost, as u know would increase significantly. As far as getting the magnets from the same batch when ordered who really knows?
I also agree that the concept should be adjustable from as many facet as possible, then if and when the device is operating, measurement (data) can be obtained for future replication.
Regards
Bill
And remember that Al did mention that 1 mm too close or too far and the effect was not present.
I believe he said that at a 4mm distance between rotor and stator, he felt air effects were creating problems.
At 6mm I believe he said it was too far for the effect, but 5mm worked for him.
(And as has been mentioned, out of a batch of 13 stators, a few(2?) worked easily, a few(2?) he could not get to work, and the rest were in the middle)
I'm new at this so is this a good place to post a new video?
Quote from: blue_energy on January 16, 2008, 01:24:36 PM
QuoteSince Alsetalokin mentioned that exact distance of the stator magnet to the rotor is quite important, I wonder how important slight differences between the individual rotor magnets strenghts are.
But how to determine the differences in the strength between the used rotor magnets?
And even more to the point: differences between the rated strengths and sizes of the magnets? Most of the rigs I've read about seem to be using N42 magnets for both stators and rotor whereas, reportedly, Al used N35 magnets for his rotor mags.
You know, as cheap as the magnets are, it might not hurt to have an additional set of N35's to test with. If someone could source it here in the U.S.
No reason I can see, to take a chance of missing it. We try with the N42's and if after tuning, testing, etc, we can not replicate, we try the N35's. Just my thought for the day. ;)
This is so important, we can not leave any stone unturned. IMHO
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: lumen on January 16, 2008, 04:19:11 PM
I'm new at this so is this a good place to post a new video?
Sure, we're all curious.
I think the video may be too big (140meg), it reset my connection.
@All,
I want to report that the initial experiments are very promising. After the initial spin a definite acceleration is observed which so far still cannot be sustained as long as @alsetalonkin's but the effect is definitely there. I will restrain at this point from posting a video or quantitative results which I will present to you later.
Quote from: lumen on January 16, 2008, 04:27:53 PM
I think the video may be too big (140meg), it reset my connection.
You might want to try uploading it to google video or youtube; both services will automatically recompress the videos.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 16, 2008, 04:29:48 PM
@All,
I want to report that the initial experiments are very promising. After the initial spin a definite acceleration is observed which so far still cannot be sustained as long as @alsetalonkin's but the effect is definitely there. I will restrain at this point from posting a video or quantitative results which I will present to you later.
How about just a peek??
@geodan,
Wanna work a bit first before posting results.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 16, 2008, 04:54:30 PM
@geodan,
Wanna work a bit first before posting results.
I think we're just a bit hungry to see some success here! I know I'd be giving this a go if I had the cash, tools and a workshop. Being self employed I have plenty of time but no money :-(
Quote from: Omnibus on January 16, 2008, 04:54:30 PM
@geodan,
Wanna work a bit first before posting results.
I can certainly understand that, we'll be here when you're ready.
oh and ahh..
WOOOHOOOO! Congratulations!!
@m0thman,
Same situation here, this is more stressful than watching LSU football this season.
Quote from: LarryC on January 16, 2008, 05:01:42 PM
@m0thman,
Same situation here, this is more stressful than watching LSU football this season.
Try being a buckeye fan sometime...lol
Hi Bill,
I sort of recognise your handle from the Joe Cell days, did you have a running Joe Cell in your car at some stage?
Hi Jason,
Very sorry, I have to disagree about placing a stronger magnet further away. If the attack angle between the rotor and stator are critical then it may be that N35 are just right and that N42 or above are just too powerful.
http://www.athenapolis.com/NN_MotorintheMagnet.htm
http://www.athenapolis.com/NN_FindingtheMotor.htm
According to the tests that Nick Nelson has done: "each pole of a magnet consists of 3 or 4 separate and distinct magnetic spin zones,depending on the pole".
So if the motor is reliant on these spin zones then getting the magnet of the correct strength and dimension may turn out to be critical.
I am even wondering if the stator would benefit from a slanted angle to the rotor (45 deg. in both planes).
I am keen to try out his ring magnet idea to see if will rotate by hand then try and make up a simple spindle to allow it to rotate on its own.
If this idea turns out to hold water then it certainly opens up a whole raft of possibilities for the WhipMag and the TPU.
The science of magnetic spin zones, sounds catchy. :)
Regards
Rob
Quote from: hydrocontrol on January 15, 2008, 08:47:09 PM
Finally got some shop time. I know it is not an exact replication. [...]. I also found it spins better one direction (CCW) then the other (CW). Not sure why.. Lots of playing to do before I get more shop time. At least it is a start..
I posted a feature page on this:
- Hydrocontro's Replication of the MPMM magnet motor (http://"http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:hydrocontro") - User "hydrocontro" proposes that this counter-rotating stator design accomplishes what he observed in another magnet motor design he built which only worked if the stator were held by hand. He also observes that his MPMM replica "spins better one direction (CCW) then the other (CW)".
- http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:hydrocontro (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:hydrocontro)
It would be nice if we had more info
- how fast did it run?
- how long?
- did it accellerate
- video
Thanks
Sterling
Quote from: btentzer on January 16, 2008, 04:20:02 PM
Quote from: blue_energy on January 16, 2008, 01:24:36 PM
QuoteSince Alsetalokin mentioned that exact distance of the stator magnet to the rotor is quite important, I wonder how important slight differences between the individual rotor magnets strenghts are.
But how to determine the differences in the strength between the used rotor magnets?
...
...
Well, if you have more magnets on hand than the number that you plan to use and you want to select a smaller group with the least amount of difference between them, then I suggest using a compass in a manner similar to the way that I used one below.
Quote
These are 1/2" 'Home Depot' disc magnets. The compass would normally point vertical, towards the top of the images. The North face of all magnets point towards the compass.
One lone magnet at the bottom, (not pictured,) will balance the Earths field at about 4_25/32", center-to-center. When the compass points East, or West, all the North fields are in balance, (remembering the Earths constant 1T from the top.)
As expected, the strength doubles with ever smaller increments moving towards the magnet. At 4T I had a hard time preventing the influence of the compass needle from rotating the magnet.
All magnets are freely resting on the surface. The black paper-tape is there just to keep them from rolling away before I could snap a photo.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D1872.0%3Battach%3D9436%3Bimage&hash=9e9c996111ecbebe8db6d0e019d601e81c371654)
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1872.msg33963.html#msg33963 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1872.msg33963.html#msg33963)
There is no need to go to all that trouble. All you need to do is slowly approach the compass directly from the South with the North attracting side of the magnet until the compass starts to spin towards the magnet. Back it off even slower until the compass needle is 90 degrees, (pointing East or West,) and mark the position of the magnet. Repeat for all magnets and select the number that you need that have the least amount of deviation from each other. Good luck.
Anyone trying this suggested method, please let me know if it is useful, or not. Thank you.
(NOTE: If you are extremely anal retentive, then you can check both sides of each magnet by also approaching the compass directly from the North with the South attracting side of the magnet. I wonder if this will always turn out to be redundant.)
Quote from: Omnibus on January 16, 2008, 04:29:48 PM
@All,
I want to report that the initial experiments are very promising. After the initial spin a definite acceleration is observed which so far still cannot be sustained as long as @alsetalonkin's but the effect is definitely there. I will restrain at this point from posting a video or quantitative results which I will present to you later.
Posted a feature page here:
- Replications (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications) > Omnibus' Replication of the MPMM (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:omnibus) - "After the initial spin, a definite acceleration is observed, which so far still cannot be sustained as long as alsetalonkin's but the effect is definitely there." (Jan. 16, 2008)
- http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:omnibus (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:omnibus)
Photo, video, additional info would be nice, so I could feature this in my news.
Quote from: sterlinga on January 16, 2008, 06:38:28 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 16, 2008, 04:29:48 PM
@All,
I want to report that the initial experiments are very promising. After the initial spin a definite acceleration is observed which so far still cannot be sustained as long as @alsetalonkin's but the effect is definitely there. I will restrain at this point from posting a video or quantitative results which I will present to you later.
Posted a feature page here:
- Replications (http://"http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications") > Omnibus' Replication of the MPMM (http://"http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:omnibus") - "After the initial spin, a definite acceleration is observed, which so far still cannot be sustained as long as alsetalonkin's but the effect is definitely there." (Jan. 16, 2008)
- http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:omnibus (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:omnibus)
Photo, video, additional info would be nice, so I could feature this in my news.
@Sterling,
the link is malformed
http://"http//peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:omnibus%22
:)
Quote from: unzapped on January 14, 2008, 05:01:10 PM
Hello all here is my long awaited quote for parts as spec'd in the drawings for the whipmag replication...
>>Hi Jason.
>>We are quoting your parts, 10 assys for $83.75 each.
>>Thank you
>>Terri @ C&D
They are a little more expensive that I originally thought...
In the interest of getting something out of this....
If I get 9 orders... I can get them to you for $94 each plus shipping...
this will get me one for myself and One for each of the 9 lucky folks that want to pay $94 US for them.
In the unlikely event 9 of you are still interested, I have paypal, live in NY, and will take interest as it comes via PM so as to not clutter this thread with this...
I truly thought I could get these done cheaper, it is what it is...
I do know that the quality of the parts from this machine shop is superior, although not sure for a hundred bucks, you will still need to have bearings, magnets, and shafts.
Personally I will probably wait until, clanzer replicates, then build a giant one based on that.
Thanks
UZ
@Unzapped
I am interested in purchasing an assembly. Any news?
Yada
..
Can anyone imagine this taking place 20 yrs ago (I know.. most of you aren't much older!) before mainstream Internet access and such a perfect medium for sharing information?
New video on YouTube. Possible explanation of the acceleration on the unit built by Al.
Check it out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tknwdltnB6s
.
Quote from: lumen on January 16, 2008, 07:20:46 PM
Check it out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tknwdltnB6s
Thank you luman0, you appeared to have proved my point about the stator accelerating and decelerating over one cycle.
It was only a theory I had, so thanks very much for this.
Quote from: sterlinga on January 16, 2008, 05:41:22 PM
Quote from: hydrocontrol on January 15, 2008, 08:47:09 PM
Finally got some shop time. I know it is not an exact replication. [...]. I also found it spins better one direction (CCW) then the other (CW). Not sure why.. Lots of playing to do before I get more shop time. At least it is a start..
I posted a feature page on this:
- Hydrocontro's Replication of the MPMM magnet motor (http://"http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:hydrocontro") - User "hydrocontro" proposes that this counter-rotating stator design accomplishes what he observed in another magnet motor design he built which only worked if the stator were held by hand. He also observes that his MPMM replica "spins better one direction (CCW) then the other (CW)".
- http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:hydrocontro (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:hydrocontro)
It would be nice if we had more info
- how fast did it run?
- how long?
- did it accelerate
- video
Thanks
Sterling
Well Thanks Sterling... No sure for what. Not going for any recognition effect. Just having a bit of machining fun. Certainly better than what is on TV. A bit jumping the gun there on a write up... I think you are reading more into my posting then intended or deserved. My old wooden magnet wheel I built about 7 years ago. Nothing special. It ran about 100 rpm.. guessing at that as I did not have a tachometer. Used Radio Shack ceramic magnets that cost a buck apiece. Those ones are pretty strong. Had around 25 or so bolted to the top of the wooden wheel. Looked like Stonehenge on top of a wood disk. :D It ran as long as I pumped it by hand with a 4 Radio Shack magnets stacked up. It did not accelerate. Well it did if I pumped it faster. Gets kind of tiring pretty fast. No video as I did not have a video camera back then. I may have a picture somewhere. Like I said . Nothing special. No precision workmanship. It is what you do with a 2x14 about 5 foot long, a pencil compass, a saber saw. a couple of Ace Hardware flanged bearings, a big bolt to go through the bearings, twenty 1 inch angle iron, a bunch of glue and a box of wood screw. Basically something to learn from.
My current replication.. Well I was playing around with the air gun driving the main rotor and I guess (no tach yet. on order) it was going around 1500 RPM. It was really whining. So fast that two of the magnets are now 'lost in the shop'. WARNING.. DANGER Will Robinson ;) this setup can make serious and harmful projectiles. There is a big dent in one wall where a magnet hit first. After that I heard it bounce around. I suppose it is stuck to some machine here. As your mother told you.. You can put an eye out with that thing. Once again I was driving it with an AIR GUN to see how fast it would go and how balance it was. It was doing really good. Hindsight.. a little stupid.. okay.. a big stupid. Luckly I ordered 10 so I still have a couple replacements. :P No acceleration.. No video of my stupidity. I'll get there.. patients please..
HydroControl.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 16, 2008, 04:29:48 PM
@All,
I want to report that the initial experiments are very promising. After the initial spin a definite acceleration is observed which so far still cannot be sustained as long as @alsetalonkin's but the effect is definitely there. I will restrain at this point from posting a video or quantitative results which I will present to you later.
@Omnibus
Take your time Omnibus. Very encouraging news, indeed.
@ All
We finally heard back from our CA machine shop and Jason's, Hank's and mine is guarenteed to be completed Monday and in to mail to us. So I will wait patiently (Not! LOL) and play this weekend. I am going to make a cheap and dirty one until mine arrives. I need something to do, and have my magnets and bearings. Besides, I want to loosen the bearings a bit. I am not going to post any video, unless I see something interesting. The good news, is that the one coming is to exact spec's and materials. I just need to find some N35's. I, like Rob, am worried about this.
If anyone has a link to some, of our spec'd size, please post for all of us replicators. Thank you.
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: lumen on January 16, 2008, 07:20:46 PM
Check it out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tknwdltnB6s
Very interesting video, thanks lumen.
I believe if this unit can run as shown in the video by Al, then a possible reason is the increased bearing drag at the point when the magnetic flux is the highest. This would be when the rotor magnets are just passing the stator.
The stator ring magnets are very close to the bearings and under increased flux, from the rotor magnets,would turn harder. The video was an attempt to show the possible theory.
It's only a theory.
@lumen
New video on YouTube. Possible explanation of the acceleration on the unit built by Al
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tknwdltnB6s
Great work, lumen.
Does this mean the north pole of the magnet passes while the two north poles of the rotor do, and then the south pole with the south poles on the rotor, or is it north/south--south/north?
With eight magnets on the rotor, and 8 north south poles, should we "expect" the stator to run at 4 times the speed of the rotor? (8 divided by 2).
Your system to observe the acceleration and deceleration of the stator is brilliant.
My next question is, can you adjust the position of the stator, to accelerate/decelerate more?
If so, does this correlate with a change in speed of the rotor and/or an increase in power?
Do you want more acceleration, or less?
If you can get a correlation between the position of the stator and the acceleration, it might be a way to fine tune the motor without just guessing. Can anyone build a moveable stator, one you can move while you watch the screen?
Using a motor to make it run is a great idea. Then you can hopefully tune it better and better until it will run without the motor.
This thread is getting interesting. Having so many minds thinking about the same thing at the same time, and sharing both successes and failures, and no one knows where it is going to lead.
We may find that we can draw so much power off the stator's acceleration and deceleration, that running a motor to power the rotor is nothing.
Quote from: lumen on January 16, 2008, 08:06:45 PM
I believe if this unit can run as shown in the video by Al, then a possible reason is the increased bearing drag at the point when the magnetic flux is the highest. This would be when the rotor magnets are just passing the stator.
The stator ring magnets are very close to the bearings and under increased flux, from the rotor magnets,would turn harder. The video was an attempt to show the possible theory.
It's only a theory.
that would suggest that we need a lot more nitty gritty detail about Al's construction of stator mags assyTo Replicate his rig...
I didn't see any other stators or dampers as in Al's vid... don't you think that they could be playing a role also?
do you have any plans of doing a more complete rep?
Thanks for the Vid, Very cool of you to share!!
Quote@ All
We finally heard back from our CA machine shop and Jason's, Hank's and mine is guarenteed to be completed Monday and in to mail to us. So I will wait patiently (Not! LOL) and play this weekend. I am going to make a cheap and dirty one until mine arrives. I need something to do, and have my magnets and bearings. Besides, I want to loosen the bearings a bit. I am not going to post any video, unless I see something interesting. The good news, is that the one coming is to exact spec's and materials. I just need to find some N35's. I, like Rob, am worried about this.
If anyone has a link to some, of our spec'd size, please post for all of us replicators. Thank you.
Cheers,
Bruce
Hi Bruce,
I saw these and they looked like they might suffice. They have one that's 6mm X 15 and N35 that seems to be just about how Al's were described.
http://www.monstermagnete.de/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Z06 (http://www.monstermagnete.de/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Z06)
I was glad to see that someone has recognised and commented upon the drag imposed by metal adjacent to the cylindrical magnet - as per one of my former posts - thank you Lumen :)
There's understandably lots of effort to accurately duplicate what has already been demonstrated, though would well be worthwhile at-least minimising the possible negative influences of other factors should repeated attempts fail to get the motor to work.
Also consider that for light roller bearings induced current will create a heating effect. Should this, is conjunction with the expansion coefficients of the balls and runners, create eventual areas of increased conduction across the bearing surface (at considerable current), then this could explain the slow-down and stoppage after running for a period of time due to the increased Lenz effect.
It might also explain why these motors can be immediately re-started after stopping, as a fairly rapid cool-down after stopping (e.g. through the shaft or magnet, etc) could then require a further period of operation before enough heat is generated with the added conductivity and drag once again realised.
Has anyone tried ceramic bearings, or at-least bearings with ceramic balls in attempting to avoid possible variations in conduction through the bearing once heated and thereby stabilising running parameters?
Finally, although the design of the motor clearly holds promise, it's equally possible that the surface electrical conductivity of the neodymium magnets is itself creating added drag in response to field deflection in operation.
Time will tell I guess, but FWIW food for thought.
FunkyJive
Quote from: DA on January 16, 2008, 08:21:07 PM
@lumen
New video on YouTube. Possible explanation of the acceleration on the unit built by Al
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tknwdltnB6s
Can anyone build a moveable stator, one you can move while you watch the screen?
CLaNZeR's rig has movable stator possibilities... but not sure if he can do it on the fly...
I think that Jason's been thinking about drawing up a base that would allow for just such on the fly adjustments... ;)
Yup I sure have and will be designing that next after testing this replication model. By the way, according to the machine shop, me, Bruce, and Hank's bases should be done and shipped out to us by Monday so we won't be too far behind you all soon!
By the way, a big congrats to lumen for the revealing test videos. I find it very interesting that we could see those accelerations and decelerations of the stator magnets so well. This begs the question: "Is the free acceleration and deceleration of the stator magnets necessary for proper motor operation or can we just gear it and be done with it??"
I suppose that question will be answered soon enough.
For now, check out this replication video on YouTube, just found it today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWKLJlImcL4
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 14, 2008, 02:47:38 PM
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 14, 2008, 02:35:52 PM
Quote from: ken_nyus
So in this stator design, the bearings themselves do not rotate?
LOL yes they rotate or waste of time having the bearings.
The brass shafts sit inside of the bearings as the picture above shows.
Sorry I know it is a minor point, but in Al's stator the outer ring of the bearing rotates, here the inner ring rotates.
I know it is a minor point, but these are magnetic steel bearings.
In any case good luck and have fun!
Wish I had a completed rig to play with!
You might be on to something here Ken...
BTW, How's your rig coming? ani closer to machined parts??
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 16, 2008, 08:40:52 PM
Yup I sure have and will be designing that next after testing this replication model. By the way, according to the machine shop, me, Bruce, and Hank's bases should be done and shipped out to us by Monday so we won't be too far behind you all soon!
By the way, a big congrats to lumen for the revealing test videos. I find it very interesting that we could see those accelerations and decelerations of the stator magnets so well. This begs the question: "Is the free acceleration and deceleration of the stator magnets necessary for proper motor operation or can we just gear it and be done with it??"
I suppose that question will be answered soon enough.
For now, check out this replication video on YouTube, just found it today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWKLJlImcL4
God Bless,
Jason O
Sound pretty exciting!
Would you care to share the contact info for shop that's making up your parts?
Thanks!
@DA
Does this mean the north pole of the magnet passes while the two north poles of the rotor do, and then the south pole with the south poles on the rotor, or is it north/south--south/north?
The stator makes a half turn for each rotor magnet it passes. As it passes a rotor magnet the stator changes to the other pole. (I need to confirm exactly the stator position wile passing)
I can move the stator in or out and the waveform height will increase when closer (as expected) and would likely be an increase in power and drag. since it would still be a balanced energy.
If you could gain any energy at each cycle, then the faster you ran it the more cycles and the more energy. (if possible)
I plan to test it a bit further because the shorting of the tachometer for a brake does not stop it too well. I may actually need to apply reverse thrusters just to prove myself wrong.
In this case I am also trying to stop the tachometer rotor mass.(a small motor may work better for a brake)
It seems an EXACT replication is best if you are attempting a working model.
I was trying to see beyond that to how it works and how it can work better. (more power! Scotty)
Quote from: blue_energy on January 16, 2008, 08:25:20 PM
Quote@ All
We finally heard back from our CA machine shop and Jason's, Hank's and mine is guarenteed to be completed Monday and in to mail to us. So I will wait patiently (Not! LOL) and play this weekend. I am going to make a cheap and dirty one until mine arrives. I need something to do, and have my magnets and bearings. Besides, I want to loosen the bearings a bit. I am not going to post any video, unless I see something interesting. The good news, is that the one coming is to exact spec's and materials. I just need to find some N35's. I, like Rob, am worried about this.
If anyone has a link to some, of our spec'd size, please post for all of us replicators. Thank you.
Cheers,
Bruce
Hi Bruce,
I saw these and they looked like they might suffice. They have one that's 6mm X 15 and N35 that seems to be just about how Al's were described.
http://www.monstermagnete.de/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Z06 (http://www.monstermagnete.de/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Z06)
Hello Blue,
Thanks for the Link. It will be good for our European friends. I need a U.S. supplier. K&J do not carry N35's.
If you find another, post it up. Thanks!
Quote from: lumen on January 16, 2008, 07:20:46 PM
Check it out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tknwdltnB6s
lumen
Excellent work, this is the best Ana so far. I copied video to review in more depth.
I noticed a small step on the top of everyother pulse, do U have an idea of what that is?
5 stars for u
Best Regards
Bill
Quote from: lumen on January 16, 2008, 08:59:35 PM
@lumen
The stator makes a half turn for each rotor magnet it passes. As it passes a rotor magnet the stator changes to the other pole. (I need to confirm exactly the stator position wile passing)
...
I was thinking of the energy required to accelerate and decelerate the stator twice in each revolution. Normally, to take a spinning object, accelerate it, then slow it down, repeatedly, does require energy. A lot of energy. To capture this energy from the stator is something I really think a long shot, I mean impossible. To do so would probably only take power from the rotor, right? But then ...
So are the magnets are transferring this energy back and forth? As the stator accelerates, the rotor decelerates? When the stator slows down, the rotor speeds up? Regenerative braking comes to mind, although at near 100% efficiency? lumen's work to put some info on the scope is interesting, can you put the acceleration/deceleration of the rotor on a scope at the same time?
I'm trying to keep my mind open. This "anomaly" seems to be a new discovery, and it may mean something, if so, I am sure I do not know what. This group is learning very fast. Turning the stator "anti gearwise", is that the key?
Post more videos, everyone. There are no failures, each effort increases the total knowledge if shared. Don't hold back waiting for success (like some are), share everything, and truly work together, as a team.
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 16, 2008, 08:40:52 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWKLJlImcL4
God Bless,
Jason O
Awwww so cute...Whosa widdle whipmag den.
@ DA
"Turning the stator "anti gearwise (AGW)", is that the key?"
I think so. The reversal from GW to AGW is the point where the device goes from cycling around a portion of the BH loop in the power absorbing direction, widdershins say, (analogous the the Carnot refrigeration cycle) and goes around it in the opposite direction, clockwise (analogous to the Carnot power cycle). The change in the rotation direction of the stator magnet is a visible manifestation of the change in direction of the cycling around the chunk being bitten out of the BH loop quadrant.
@vipond50
The waveform is consistent with the peaks and valleys very close to the same as long as the stator magnet is the same height as the rotor magnets. They vary a bit in size if not operating at the same height.
The notch or glitch you may have been seeing is when I apply the short to the tachometer to try to stop the stator. I only shows every other wave because I only put one reflector on the stator for the pickup. I did try two but went back to one for the video so it would show two waves for every rotation of the stator.
I need to get a better brake since the waveform shows almost no change in speed after the braking pulse.(does very little)
It seems if it was stopped more then the next move is to accelerate of the rotor magnet which would put more energy back into the rotor. There is much room for breaking because if I touch the stator after everything is stable the system fluctuates. This fluctuation is much larger even than the entire shown waveform. This is room for breaking!
After each break pulse (if it worked) means the amount removed would be applied back into the rotor. So the system would actually run by extracting energy and without doing so the energy would equalize and the system slow to a stop.
Weird, did I say that?
lumen,
I did notice in playing with my setup that I was getting a lot of stator bearing slow down from the stator magnet. I killed (or at least partially killed) that effect by adding a steel washer to the bottom of the stator magnet, then a thin plastic washer and then another steel washer, then a thicker plastic washer and then the bearing. The steel washers warp the magnetic field downward but do not appear to effect the field outward. Something you may want to experiment with.
expect a bit of a traffic increase...Steorn website went down again
Quote from: geodan on January 16, 2008, 08:45:24 PM
You might be on to something here Ken...
BTW, How's your rig coming? ani closer to machined parts??
Great work by Lumen, the most useful information yet on this motor.
No machined parts yet.
I have the N42 magnets, and tomorrow should be arriving some HDPE, Delrin, Aluminum rod ,and some bearings, these 1/16" thicker than Al's, and I have no idea what quality these bearings may be.
I'm still hoping one of the group buys may go through.
But in the mean time, I will probably end up at a friends house, who has a small wood lathe, and a drill press, and see what I can do there. I will probably use a plywood base.
So if Lumens theory is correct it seems important to make the stators adjustable in height, to possibly control the induced drag.
Someone mentioned on the pages earlier that a hi-speed recording camera would be ideal, to record the spinning and positions of the magnets, so it dawned on me that I've seen one recently that's fairly affordable (for what it does):
Casio EXILIM EX-F1 (300-1200fps in video mode): http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08010601casiof1.asp
Just fyi...not available until March'08 though. :)
Lumen,
What RPM range are you working in in your video?
QuoteHello Blue,
Thanks for the Link. It will be good for our European friends. I need a U.S. supplier. K&J do not carry N35's.
If you find another, post it up. Thanks!
OK - here you go, Bruce. It took getting extra serious with Google advanced search, but I found them for you. These two pages are selling .25"x.5" N35 cylinder magnets. That means that they will *apparently* be slightly shorter than Als, but exactly a quarter inch in diameter. Plus, they're both shipping from the US:
http://www.allstarmagnetics.com/magnets/rareearth_ndfeb.asp (http://www.allstarmagnetics.com/magnets/rareearth_ndfeb.asp)
http://www.armsmag.com/neodymium_stock_size.htm (http://www.armsmag.com/neodymium_stock_size.htm)
@ken_nyus
The RPM is controlled by a tiny motor from a constant voltage source so it's not very accurate. I do know from my homopolar disk tests that it will spin up to about 11,000 RPM.
I never tried running this up that fast and never calculated how fast the magnets would be going at 11,000 RPM but the thought of one flying out and hitting the back of your hand or some other bony part (I can't even think eyes) would probably leave a mark!
I have a new IR tach coming and should be here Friday. (cause I do calculations all day at work so I try to avoid them at home)
It will keep the AGW lock down to about 200-300 RPM. As it spins faster the waveform reduces in size as expected but way less than I thought would be the case.
In the video I would guess about 800-1000 on the rotor but wait for the IR tachometer.
Hi guys,
I started checking this forum after I saw Al's video on youtube, and i've been following the progress of the replications this last week. Keep up the good work and good luck with your rep's!
I editted Al's video to slow motion and altered the zoom/contrast a bit, thought some people here might be interested to see.
http://www.stage6.com/user/henry567/video/2086170/ (Larger video size)
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x42px0_ocmpmm-slow_tech
I fixed up CLaNZeR last video [http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg70590.html#msg70590 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg70590.html#msg70590)] and put it up here.
[http://ou.whipmag.googlepages.com/ (http://ou.whipmag.googlepages.com/)]
I stabilized the video so it doesn't shake as much. Also tweaked the brightness. If anyone has a vid that people think everyone here should see, upload it here [http://www.sendspace.com/ (http://www.sendspace.com/)] and i'll mess around with it then put it up on the googlepage. If its a successful video, i'll put it up on youtube as well.
Quote from: henry14 on January 16, 2008, 11:35:21 PM
Hi guys,
I started checking this forum after I saw Al's video on youtube, and i've been following the progress of the replications this last week. Keep up the good work and good luck with your rep's!
I editted Al's video to slow motion and altered the zoom/contrast a bit, thought some people here might be interested to see.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x42px0_ocmpmm-slow_tech
Henry Absolutly brilliant,
one can see the stators shift and stall.
going for another look!!!
How can one save?
Regards Den
@Lumen
Hey Lumen, I looked your video over. Interesting idea but there's one part I couldn't grasp. Now let me make sure I'm understanding your experiment. You're using a coil based tachometer to produce a signal that your feeding into the scope. You then use an optical tachometer to drive a transistor that shorts the coil/tach at a precise time, correct?
If I've got all that right then the part I'm not sure about is the signal coming from the coil/tach. The signal you're showing on the scope is the change in magnetic flux from the stator, not the stator's acceleration/deceleration. Speed information is a mathematical function that needs to be processed/calculated from the output frequency and amplitude of the signal - when processed it would look more like steps on your oscilloscope, not sine waves. The signal from the coil/tach in the video is definitely raw unprocessed data. You should get the same data by placing any small coil near the stator as it spins. Shorting the coil as the signal starts to increase means your allowing current to flow as the north pole of the stator approaches the tachometer coil. This will put a load on the stator magnet and cause it to slow down - taking energy from the system, not increasing it as what appears to happen when you get a latch.
The lower frequency oscillation you can see on the oscilloscope is most likely the rotation of the rotor. Since the coil/tach is in close proximity to the rotor, it should see two changing magnetic fields. A low frequency signal (rotor) mixed with a much higher frequency signal (stator) will produce the same modulation your scope sees. What would be interesting to investigate is what the two signals are doing when you have a good latch like in Al's setup. I bet they are some kind of harmonic (n), octave (2^n), or triple octave (3^n) of each other - maybe even a standing wave pattern.
If this is not a hoax, as it is appearing every day not to be, then I would say all you fellows working on this have stumbled upon the mechanism in which the universe uses to create energy. I've theorized that energy is created when two fields, being spatially 90 degrees apart and of the same make up (i.e. both magnetic fields, or both electric fields, or etc), interact without any reactionary force. I'm working on a project to prove this theory but my setup would not be something easily found in nature. I've often wondered how the universe would do it, I think this motor (again if it's real) explains it quite nicely. As a matter of fact, I would venture to say that the latch should occur when the counter-spinning stator's center point (the half way mark between north and south) is in alignment with the north or south pole of the rotor, and vice versa. If this is the case, then you guys will need to bring the two other gear-spinning stators closer to the counter-spinning stator.... and make sure that the gear-spinners are facing south when the rotor magnet closest to the counter-spinning stator is facing north... hehe it might improve your performance ;)
Off to bed,
Charlie
Quote from: cub3 on January 17, 2008, 12:02:59 AM
Quote from: henry14 on January 16, 2008, 11:35:21 PM
Hi guys,
I started checking this forum after I saw Al's video on youtube, and i've been following the progress of the replications this last week. Keep up the good work and good luck with your rep's!
I editted Al's video to slow motion and altered the zoom/contrast a bit, thought some people here might be interested to see.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x42px0_ocmpmm-slow_tech
Henry Absolutly brilliant,
one can see the stators shift and stall.
going for another look!!!
How can one save?
Regards Den
I uploaded for you here, Den :) (if anyone wishes to rehost feel free)
http://rapidshare.com/files/84425022/ocmpmm.wmv.html
Also I have uploaded on Stage 6 which has a larger video size:
http://www.stage6.com/user/henry567/video/2086170/
Quote from: henry14 on January 17, 2008, 12:15:36 AM
Quote from: cub3 on January 17, 2008, 12:02:59 AM
Quote from: henry14 on January 16, 2008, 11:35:21 PM
Hi guys,
I started checking this forum after I saw Al's video on youtube, and i've been following the progress of the replications this last week. Keep up the good work and good luck with your rep's!
I editted Al's video to slow motion and altered the zoom/contrast a bit, thought some people here might be interested to see.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x42px0_ocmpmm-slow_tech
Henry Absolutly brilliant,
one can see the stators shift and stall.
going for another look!!!
How can one save?
Regards Den
I uploaded for you here, Den :) (if anyone wishes to rehost feel free)
http://rapidshare.com/files/84425022/ocmpmm.wmv.html
Also I have uploaded on Stage 6 which has a larger video size:
http://www.stage6.com/user/henry567/video/2086170/
Thank's Henry,
1hr 5 min's to go. Dial up :-[ hope no phone calls :'(
all the best Den
Doug continues to be delayed in his replica by some unfortunate developments that he's had to attend to.
Meanwhile, he has been making slow progress in his 1.5-scale replication.
I've posted some photos and such here:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:Douglas_K._Furr (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:Douglas_K._Furr)
Quote from: lumen on January 16, 2008, 11:23:18 PM
@ken_nyus
The RPM is controlled by a tiny motor from a constant voltage source so it's not very accurate. I do know from my homopolar disk tests that it will spin up to about 11,000 RPM.
I never tried running this up that fast and never calculated how fast the magnets would be going at 11,000 RPM but the thought of one flying out and hitting the back of your hand or some other bony part (I can't even think eyes) would probably leave a mark!
I have a new IR tach coming and should be here Friday. (cause I do calculations all day at work so I try to avoid them at home)
It will keep the AGW lock down to about 200-300 RPM. As it spins faster the waveform reduces in size as expected but way less than I thought would be the case.
In the video I would guess about 800-1000 on the rotor but wait for the IR tachometer.
Several of us got this sub rev tacho meters that is giving a timestamp 720 times or more per rev. If we could get a sub rev tacho on the stator and then use an index mark on the rotor, we should be able to find the exact position of the stator when it is running in the AGW locking. Then we will see the acceleration part and the braking, and later if we help the rotor up in speed until we losses the grip, we can see how it was lost, and then modify the rotor or stator for a better match.
Yes, I know I should do it. I have all the equipment and the rotor -stator that lock in AGW direction, but I am swamped in work at the moment an hardly got time to follow this development, so until I get more time, I hope someone will look into this.
Svein
hi lumen and everybody
I'm a now studying for my masters degree in physics, and although everything I've learned says this can't work, I'm feeling optimistic. i have been following the developments over the last week, and i think what you have done, lumen, can be very enlightening. but i have some remarks.
i don't know how your tachometer is built, but I'm assuming it contains an electromagnet and a diode bridge rectifier. if it is so, the picture your are seeing does not indicate what you think. you would expect the same (or almost the same) signal from a magnet spinning in a constant speed.
so, from what we see on the scope, we can say that for every two "hills", the stator magnet makes a turn. so we can calculate its rotation frequency from that. it would be interesting to see the main rotor frequency as well, it might not be what we expect, in relation to the stator frequency.
i think a good way to look at it, is to look at the gaps between the magnets on the main rotor, instead of the magnets themselves. we can clearly define a "north" gap (a gap to whom the magnets on both sides point their north pole) and a "south" gap. now it is clear that the south part of the stator magnet is attracted to the north gap, and so on.
it might be interesting to try to connect the stator magnet to the main rotor with two gear wheels, so that it would turn in the frequency we set, and trying to give a different phase each time to the stator magnet in relation to the main rotor.
Congratulations on the good work so far! keep posting to keep us up to date.
Jona
Rather than using gears, maybe better to drive the Rotor and Stator with Stepper motors to adjust the phase relationship between them?
To try understand why there may be acceleration, please look at the principal discovered by the researchers of Inductrack.
https://www.llnl.gov/str/Post.html (https://www.llnl.gov/str/Post.html)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductrack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductrack)
Once a certain speed has been exceeded the drag coefficient reduces significantly. In the case of Inductrack something like 200:1.
With the rotor being spun AGW, as long as it exceeds the threshold speed the drag would reduce in a non linear way and so would be expected to accelerate.
The same may happen if spun GW fast enough ???
anyway just something i remembered from awhile back. Might help, might be totally BS :) in this case
In all attempts of creating a pm motor I have seen up to now there is either the attempt to trigger it by an electic impulse or mechanically hiding a part.
When I saw this thing one thing came back to my mind. Most of you have seen it and came to the conclusion that this is nonsense
like this (sorry couldn?t find the video): http://keelynet.com/gravity/hamag.htm (just ignore the paranormal bull**** on the site)
Of course it only works because the hand is not fixed but exactly this is the trick. Know what I mean?
Hi lakes
I agree that Stepper motors are a good option, though to show OU, you would like to get rid of all external power sources.
Hi All,
In my 'primitive' and 'not exact' replication I have noticed a few things.
1. The effect appears to be real. There is a very apparent syncing effect that 'as it happens' appears to keep the rotor at a steady speed for at least a couple of seconds. I still have to 'learn' how to do video but mine would still pale in comparison to this one already posted. This effect can best be seen in
CLaNZeR video CLaNZeRSLatch4.wmv at http://www.overunity.org.uk/
2. Is going to be extremely hard with this setup to find the 'right' combination of magnet strength, location, friction, bearings, mass of rotor, mass of stator, etc. I have only two lengths of rotor magnets to play with .5 and .75 inches. I think Al's are somewhere in between. I would hazard to guess that even Al would have a hard time making a working second one.
3. Is not going to be 'slap it together' and it will work system. :'( I am not saying that what Al did was a fluke and not reproducible. I am saying that it is going to be a 'real bear' to get one working so it may take weeks-months of playing to get another one running. Of course someone may have one running tomorrow ;D Doubt that it will be me :'(
@Charlie_v
I should have shown the stator tachometer. It is not a simple coil detecting the magnetic field, it is rotary device like a small generator that generates a voltage from rotational speed.
The specs are 7v per 1000 RPM.
The wave you see is actually the stator speeding up and slowing down as it pases each amgnet on the rotor.
Quote from: lumen on January 17, 2008, 08:49:00 AM
@Charlie_v
I should have shown the stator tachometer. It is not a simple coil detecting the magnetic field, it is rotary device like a small generator that generates a voltage from rotational speed.
The specs are 7v per 1000 RPM.
The wave you see is actually the stator speeding up and slowing down as it pases each amgnet on the rotor.
This slowing and speeding up is because of the slow/fast parts of the cycle on the stators as clearly shown by ZeroFossilFuel on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHy_OeS8qVE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHy_OeS8qVE)
Most people dislike his replica but He is very knowledgable and his replica is only intended to explain some of the effects seen.
Good job Lumen on your observations and methodology :)
Oh ok, can you give me the model number and manufacturer of the tach, I'd like to look those up, they sound pretty neat.
Thanks,
Charlie
Quote from: xumed on January 17, 2008, 09:08:42 AM
This slowing and speeding up is because of the slow/fast parts of the cycle on the stators as clearly shown by ZeroFossilFuel on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHy_OeS8qVE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHy_OeS8qVE)
Most people dislike his replica but He is very knowledgable and his replica is only intended to explain some of the effects seen.
Good job Lumen on your observations and methodology :)
Cube magnets and diametrically magnetized cylinder magnets have considerably different field characteristics.
Quote from: lumen on January 17, 2008, 08:49:00 AM
@Charlie_v
I should have shown the stator tachometer. It is not a simple coil detecting the magnetic field, it is rotary device like a small generator that generates a voltage from rotational speed.
The specs are 7v per 1000 RPM.
The wave you see is actually the stator speeding up and slowing down as it pases each amgnet on the rotor.
@lumen
I have tried to find the relative movements between the rotor magnets and the stator magnets, and a lot of people have been speculating and making sim models about this, but with your equipment and setup you might be the first to really describe the position of the magnets.
Great work.
Svein
Is there a problem in reconciling Lumen's measurements of the movement of the stator (accelerating-decelerating) with Al's measurment of the pulsing field of the stator measured with a Rogowski coil and shown here as a pretty straightline sawtooth pattern:
http://www.ospmm.com/whipmag/3Ax8_s2.jpg
(from www.ospmm.com/whipmag)
I don't know enough to make a good judgement here, but maybe someone who does can comment on the two compared?
The operation of this motor is reliant on the the stator being able to vary its speed. The acceleration, and deceleration must be of a controlled nature so that the overall stator interaction is aysmetrical and we get a gain. If the stator and rotor were locked or geared together you would not get a gain. If you could gear it together but with a 30 degree null zone on the gearing this would allow the decelerations and accelerations so vital to get through the rotor field with a gain. In Al?s motor it appears he had the balance just right, and the inertia was in just the right amounts.
Therefore if the stator is too light, the stator will go too fast in the acelerations and slam into the wall of repulsion, if the stator is too heavy it won?t react fast enough and it will slam into the wall of attraction. The trick is getting a dribble of one or the other.
In this femm graphical representation of the interacting fields we need to stay in the blue zones to escape with energy
this was done by Greg L. .
Craigy wrote :
QuoteThe operation of this motor is reliant on the the stator being able to vary its speed. The acceleration, and deceleration must be of a controlled nature so that the overall stator interaction is aysmetrical and we get a gain. If the stator and rotor were locked or geared together you would not get a gain. If you could gear it together but with a 30 degree null zone on the gearing this would allow the decelerations and accelerations so vital to get through the rotor field with a gain. In Al?s motor it appears he had the balance just right, and the inertia was in just the right amounts.
Therefore if the stator is too light, the stator will go too fast in the acelerations and slam into the wall of repulsion, if the stator is too heavy it won?t react fast enough and it will slam into the wall of attraction. The trick is getting a dribble of one or the other.
This pretty much backs up what I have found in playing with my setup and what I wrote above.
Hydrocontrol wrote:
Quote2. Is going to be extremely hard with this setup to find the 'right' combination of magnet strength, location, friction, bearings, mass of rotor, mass of stator, etc. I have only two lengths of rotor magnets to play with .5 and .75 inches. I think Al's are somewhere in between. I would hazard to guess that even Al would have a hard time making a working second one.
Quote from: Craigy on January 17, 2008, 11:33:08 AM
The operation of this motor is reliant on the the stator being able to vary its speed. The acceleration, and deceleration must be of a controlled nature so that the overall stator interaction is aysmetrical and we get a gain. If the stator and rotor were locked or geared together you would not get a gain. If you could gear it together but with a 30 degree null zone on the gearing this would allow the decelerations and accelerations so vital to get through the rotor field with a gain. In Al?s motor it appears he had the balance just right, and the inertia was in just the right amounts.
Therefore if the stator is too light, the stator will go too fast in the acelerations and slam into the wall of repulsion, if the stator is too heavy it won?t react fast enough and it will slam into the wall of attraction. The trick is getting a dribble of one or the other.
Well I have the Rotor and sizes now as close as I can get, but the weight now is different. Might have to shave some of the Rotor off.
Anyone remember the exact weight of AL's Rotor again?
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fcompare1.jpg&hash=9100d6666d5d709e8df0ff699c69be74dbf03a8f)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Ffinal2.jpg&hash=181f86dffe3266f870f29821f6a74d34f8633a77)
Cheers
Sean.
From my notes, Al's rotor was 258 grams.
Sweet! you guys rock!!
@ All - not to re state the obvious, but t would appear to me, that through a long process of experimentation and tinkering with what he had on hand Al hit upon just the right recipe. From a replicators point of view I'm wondering if the information and drawings that we have include enough specific detail about the original rig assembly and components, (bearings, materials, magnets) and their physical / electrical properties for replication or if they represent an approximation of how it cold be replicated... I'm wondering if some of the finer details might not have been lost in translation... I'm thinking that everyone is sooting at a pretty small bullseye.. any thoughts on that?
A ruler in the Al's frame would have helped tremendously... does anyone recognize the DVD?
That would be Behind Enemy Lines ...
Found here:
http://www.hotmoviesale.com/dvds/6659/1/Behind-Enemy-Lines.jpg
There is this by 'Just Maybe' on the Whipmag Development discussion:
QuoteIf anyone is interested in evaluating the Kinetic energy of the WhipMag Rotor at various speeds you can use this formula based on a weight of 0.258 kg and a radius of 0.073m.
0.000344*(rpm/9.55)^2
It is not exact as it assumes even density of the rotor (its not, due to the magnets) and the numbers are rounded somewhat
(worked out from the following)
Ke= 0.5*I*w^2
I= Moment of Inertia = 0.5*.258*.073*.073= .000687441
(Slight difference from Pcstru, so please check it)
w=Angular velocity in radians= rpm/60*2pi
so Ke for 400 rpm= .5*.000687441*(400/60*2pi)^2 = 0.603091 Joules
Simplified and rounded =0.000344*(400/9.55)^2= 0.603492 Joules
...so 258 grams seems somewhat confirmed.
Quote...so 258 grams seems somewhat confirmed.
Oh! And someone later points out (can't remember who - sorry) that the rotor weight can't be right for this calculation because it isn't considering the weight of the magnets.
<Edit Much Later>
I found this just now from Al on Jan. 6th on the Whipmag development discussion:
QuoteMass of rotor assembly, including magnets and shaft adapter, but not including shaft or bearings:
258 grams.
Mass of stator magnet assembly, including holder, magnet, and bearing:
10 grams. Variation between the 13 units is below the resolution of my (home) scale.
...so, the comment about the 258 grams not including the magnets was incorrect.
I believe the wieght of the stator was 10 grams, the magnet is 5 , so combined wieght of bearing and holder would be just over 5. I say just over because the inner portion of the bearing does not move
Quote from: Smit80 on January 17, 2008, 12:57:18 PM
That would be Behind Enemy Lines ...
Found here:
http://www.hotmoviesale.com/dvds/6659/1/Behind-Enemy-Lines.jpg
maybe someone could post a picture of a ruler on the DVD? might give us a little more perspective here and there...
CLaNZeR nice engineering work!! If the distance to the rotor playes the role here (see attached)? It is bigger that on ALs device??
It appears to be slightly different camera angles. Al's is off to the side while CLaNZeR is straight down.
This would make it appear that Al's stator is closer to the rotor than it really is.
Quote from: Jinis on January 17, 2008, 01:54:16 PM
CLaNZeR nice engineering work!! If the distance to the rotor playes the role here (see attached)? It is bigger that on ALs device??
Quote from: hydrocontrol on January 17, 2008, 02:13:53 PM
It appears to be slightly different camera angles. Al's is off to the side while CLaNZeR is straight down.
This would make it appear that Al's stator is closer to the rotor than it really is.
Quote from: Jinis on January 17, 2008, 01:54:16 PM
CLaNZeR nice engineering work!! If the distance to the rotor playes the role here (see attached)? It is bigger that on ALs device??
Also that Al used a N35 ? and Sean is utilizing a N42 would change the air gap.
B.
John Depew wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4B_Lj1JM6g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4B_Lj1JM6g)
"This is a much better example of my individual work involving Natural Harmonic Magnetic Communication Principles.The other video was posted was from someone I had trained a few months ago(in trust)in regards to some of these wonderful principles.That video is a very very poor example/expression of my work so I'm sending you a better example here."
/END QUOTE
I posted this to: http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Data#Magnetic_Sync (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Data#Magnetic_Sync)
In sending a copy of this to Overconfident via Bcc, I received the following message back:
----- Original Message -----
From: [overconfident]
To: <sterlingda [at] pureenergysystems.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 12:15 PM
Subject: Yahoo! Auto Response
Sorry, but Overconfident's email account is no longer active. See you in another life.
@CLaNZer, I'm Looking at AL's rotor and the slots that hold the mags go all the way through.I'm wondering if there is some kind of effect on the stator mags.Such as a push from traped air, or vacuum as it passes?Just guessing....
guys,
I was looking at the stills and videos of Al's unit again and it seems to me that some of the rotor magnets are not centered, or so it seems. can some one take a look and confirm this? I was wondering if this "imbalance" of the magnets may be a key.
After building a near perfect replication of the OC video machine and testing for two days, we have had no indication of self running or acceleration or overunity. Will continue testing for a reasonable time.
I hope I'm wrong but I have a feeling that if I go to this site fifteen years from now, there will be a small group of guys still trying to get this device to work.
Our group has made the decision that we will not replicate any device in the future who's builder or inventor does not disclose their full name and will not allow public viewing of the device. It's such a childish way to go about things. We will just let other people invest their time, energy and money doing it.
Butch LaFonte
@ blue_
Thanks for the magnet links last night!
I have now ordered my N35 magnets. Now I will be able to test with boths strengths. I just have a funny feeling that the N35 is what is needed, and what was used.
It is obvious from Al's information that this is all about fine tuning, so perhaps with the N35, I can tune to the effect. ;D They will be arriving next week.
Cheers,
Bruce
Seems harder to get these new Stator Magnets to latch compared to the Bodged Stators I used before the correct ones turn up.
Spent a couple of hours inserting washers one at a time making the Stators Higher or Lower to try and get the easiest config and also moving the Airgap distance bit by bit, bloody boring stuff I will tell ya LOL
This was without the HDPE surround.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSMkHD3YGHU
Better Resolution at
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRSOCMPMMNewStators.wmv
Cheers
Sean.
Unfortunately no replication can be a true replication. There are lots of un knowns.
The magnets on the rotor, Size yes , type no , test all neos in the size 1/2 by 1/4 inch, i.e n35 , n38, n40,
Find optimum stator spacing
Find optimum air gap
Find optimum stator hieght to rotor.
Be faithfull to the wieghts of rotor and stator.
Examine stators to find out what magnetic friction is present. Replacing bearings with better ones could alter the stator reponse curve to nullify the effect.
Lastly , the neos used in the rotor were old surpplus ones, Perhaps you need to take hammer to them to weaken them before installing. So if you think that in 2 days of testing you will get it to work all i can say is good luck
I have looked at Al?s and CLaNZeRS pictures of the magnets at the close passing.
Maybe this is the sync point where most of the action is taking place. The stator is almost brought to a stop at this point. When the rotor has past by some degrees, the stator is accelerated away from the rotor. Then the stator can turn 180 degrees before it is almost stopped again by the passing of the next magnet. This is the case if the stator is rotating 4 times faster then the rotor, when we use eight magnets on the rotor.
If the stator is turning much faster the magnet can turn 180 degrees plus n*360 degrees. So the next sync speed will be 12:1 and then 20:1.
Al mention that he could make the stator sync at 4:1 and 12:1, and that fits nicely with this theory.
I am looking forward till the day we get detailed info of the position of the stator magnet between to rotor magnets.
Svein
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 17, 2008, 12:32:16 PM
From my notes, Al's rotor was 258 grams.
Thanks Ken
Cheers
Sean.
Forgot to mention also
If you want to check out another resource for the OCMPMM then skip by my forums at http://www.overunity.org.uk/forum/ where we have dedicated Replicator area's building up.
I will still update my progress here, but easier to have a starting point where I can post my latest updates and post any intersting bits out after.
Saves filling this thread with crap hehe
Cheers
Sean.
Has anyone seen a graphic representation of this anywhere??
per Al - "But if you look at the later ones, you will see a 3.5 mm shaft instead of the 1/4-20 brass screw, and the 1/2 in hole in the rotor has been "plugged" with a Delrin insert to adapt to this shaft. The shaft is mounted in a dual ball bearing holder with a spring compression end-play eliminator, and the holder in turn is mounted on the base, in lieu of the brass screw. The rotor now simply slides on and off the shaft. For upside down runs I secure the rotor with a little retaining collar with a setscrew."
Thanks!
Quote from: Butch on January 17, 2008, 03:47:03 PM
After building a near perfect replication of the OC video machine and testing for two days, we have had no indication of self running or acceleration or overunity. Will continue testing for a reasonable time.
I hope I'm wrong but I have a feeling that if I go to this site fifteen years from now, there will be a small group of guys still trying to get this device to work.
Our group has made the decision that we will not replicate any device in the future who's builder or inventor does not disclose their full name and will not allow public viewing of the device. It's such a childish way to go about things. We will just let other people invest their time, energy and money doing it.
Butch LaFonte
Yes we need to give up hope. This guy has and so should we ::) :P I think I'll go buy some gas now.
Quote from: sveinutne on January 17, 2008, 04:01:34 PM
Al mention that he could make the stator sync at 4:1 and 12:1, and that fits nicely with this theory.
If I remember correctly the 12:1 was gearwise synchronization.
Quote from: geodan on January 17, 2008, 04:24:52 PM
Has anyone seen a graphic representation of this anywhere??
per Al - "But if you look at the later ones, you will see a 3.5 mm shaft instead of the 1/4-20 brass screw, and the 1/2 in hole in the rotor has been "plugged" with a Delrin insert to adapt to this shaft. The shaft is mounted in a dual ball bearing holder with a spring compression end-play eliminator, and the holder in turn is mounted on the base, in lieu of the brass screw. The rotor now simply slides on and off the shaft. For upside down runs I secure the rotor with a little retaining collar with a setscrew."
Thanks!
I have not seen any graphic, but I tried to follow any more info on this, and if I remember correctly, Al tried to explain it further, and also mention that this was a mechanism he took from the capstan(? or some other part) of an old reel-to-reel tape recorder.
One thing I would like to mention in light of Lumen's theory of operation for this device...
When I went back and read through all of the conversations at Steorn, I noticed OC several times asking Al to please change the stator rotors to ceramic bearings.
Al did not respond to this point at all. He completely ignored this request. Who am I but just another idiot on the internet, but I feel that Al held something back about the stator bearings, and it may be the effect proposed by Lumen.
But I think Lumen's theory turns the device into circular version of Newton's Cradle/Pendulum, with energy being shuffled back and forth between the rotor and the stator with very little loss. This was also mentioned by someone a few pages back here.
I'm not sure how Lumens theory accounts for acceleration, I can see how it accounts for energy transfer between stator and rotor, but not for acceleration. In other words it does not explain a source of energy, but only a mechanism for transferring it from one place to another.
Why would Al ignore an obvious flaw in a magnetic device (steel bearings 1/16" away from a very strong magnet), and why would the physicists at his job just chuckle and smile when they see a device like this?
One explanation is it is just a non-obvious Newtons Cradle.
Just some random, paranoid internet thoughts here.
In other news I did get most of my raw materials delivered today (HDPE, Delrin, Alum, bearings, etc.) so my build moves forward slowly as the saga unfolds!
;)
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 17, 2008, 04:32:47 PM
Quote from: geodan on January 17, 2008, 04:24:52 PM
Has anyone seen a graphic representation of this anywhere??
per Al - "But if you look at the later ones, you will see a 3.5 mm shaft instead of the 1/4-20 brass screw, and the 1/2 in hole in the rotor has been "plugged" with a Delrin insert to adapt to this shaft. The shaft is mounted in a dual ball bearing holder with a spring compression end-play eliminator, and the holder in turn is mounted on the base, in lieu of the brass screw. The rotor now simply slides on and off the shaft. For upside down runs I secure the rotor with a little retaining collar with a setscrew."
Thanks!
I have not seen any graphic, but I tried to follow any more info on this, and if I remember correctly, Al tried to explain it further, and also mention that this was a mechanism he took from the capstan(? or some other part) of an old reel-to-reel tape recorder.
hmmm can't find it...
I'm still trying to get a quote for parts machining but this part is stumping SPM... (I see CLaNZeR's rig,) What's everyone else doing to support the rotor, what kind of bearings? how high etc?
is there a stock part(s) available somewhere?
Thanks
Quote from: geodan on January 17, 2008, 04:57:34 PM
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 17, 2008, 04:32:47 PM
Quote from: geodan on January 17, 2008, 04:24:52 PM
Has anyone seen a graphic representation of this anywhere??
per Al - "But if you look at the later ones, you will see a 3.5 mm shaft instead of the 1/4-20 brass screw, and the 1/2 in hole in the rotor has been "plugged" with a Delrin insert to adapt to this shaft. The shaft is mounted in a dual ball bearing holder with a spring compression end-play eliminator, and the holder in turn is mounted on the base, in lieu of the brass screw. The rotor now simply slides on and off the shaft. For upside down runs I secure the rotor with a little retaining collar with a setscrew."
Thanks!
I have not seen any graphic, but I tried to follow any more info on this, and if I remember correctly, Al tried to explain it further, and also mention that this was a mechanism he took from the capstan(? or some other part) of an old reel-to-reel tape recorder.
hmmm can't find it...
I'm still trying to get a quote for parts machining but this part is stumping SPM... (I see CLaNZeR's rig,) What's everyone else doing to support the rotor, what kind of bearings? how high etc?
is there a stock part(s) available somewhere?
Thanks
No one seems to be using a tapered bearing (conical bearing), but that would be my choice for the rotor, because both axial and radial forces are present.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapered_roller_bearing
:)
Yada ..
.
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 17, 2008, 04:30:06 PM
Quote from: sveinutne on January 17, 2008, 04:01:34 PM
Al mention that he could make the stator sync at 4:1 and 12:1, and that fits nicely with this theory.
If I remember correctly the 12:1 was gearwise synchronization.
I think it was in AGW locking 4:1 and 12:1
Svein
Quote from: starcruiser on January 17, 2008, 03:14:07 PM
guys,
I was looking at the stills and videos of Al's unit again and it seems to me that some of the rotor magnets are not centered, or so it seems. can some one take a look and confirm this? I was wondering if this "imbalance" of the magnets may be a key.
I agree they appear offset
cub3
Hi Guys,
I am constructing my own replication version of this motor setup.
I have a single question to ask.
On the original motor there are 13 holes in a circle around the main rotor that the stator magnets could be placed in. Figure counting clockwise.
Say I started and placed my first stator magnet in hole #1 then what would be the correct next couple hole numbers that the other two stator magnets would be placed in?
I see many different setup ideas regarding the stator magnet placement. Your help will be most appreciated.
Tom
It seems like the inventor should again demonstrate his/this motor device outdoors on a glass top backyard patio table in BROAD DAYLIGHT. With his sleeves rolled up to show credibility once and for all. All movie clips should be of excellent quality.
Just how hard would that be to do?
Tom
Quote from: geodan on January 17, 2008, 04:57:34 PM
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 17, 2008, 04:32:47 PM
Quote from: geodan on January 17, 2008, 04:24:52 PM
Has anyone seen a graphic representation of this anywhere??
per Al - "But if you look at the later ones, you will see a 3.5 mm shaft instead of the 1/4-20 brass screw, and the 1/2 in hole in the rotor has been "plugged" with a Delrin insert to adapt to this shaft. The shaft is mounted in a dual ball bearing holder with a spring compression end-play eliminator, and the holder in turn is mounted on the base, in lieu of the brass screw. The rotor now simply slides on and off the shaft. For upside down runs I secure the rotor with a little retaining collar with a setscrew."
Thanks!
I have not seen any graphic, but I tried to follow any more info on this, and if I remember correctly, Al tried to explain it further, and also mention that this was a mechanism he took from the capstan(? or some other part) of an old reel-to-reel tape recorder.
hmmm can't find it...
I'm still trying to get a quote for parts machining but this part is stumping SPM... (I see CLaNZeR's rig,) What's everyone else doing to support the rotor, what kind of bearings? how high etc?
is there a stock part(s) available somewhere?
Thanks
Ever thought of turning down a bit of brass threaded rod. Easy on a lathe , but possible using just a drill and a micrometer. Takes a lot of filing , here is one i prepared earlier
Hi,
more picture from the LaFonte group.
video coming soon.
Here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/v/2Dc2xTHYx0o (http://www.youtube.com/v/2Dc2xTHYx0o)
Quote from: magnetman12003 on January 17, 2008, 05:33:32 PM
Hi Guys,
I am constructing my own replication version of this motor setup.
I have a single question to ask.
On the original motor there are 13 holes in a circle around the main rotor that the stator magnets could be placed in. Figure counting clockwise.
Say I started and placed my first stator magnet in hole #1 then what would be the correct next couple hole numbers that the other two stator magnets would be placed in?
I see many different setup ideas regarding the stator magnet placement. Your help will be most appreciated.
Tom
@magment man
I think the orginal was to have stators in all 13 spaces, but in Als video he had the Judson dampers in the other stator holes,
so I would say anything goes. Not much help huh
HT
A quote from Al@steorn, which is interesting in the context of the effect proposed by Lumen:
"...But in spite of that, when I accepted what my eyes were telling me, I realized that the performance could be increased by adding just the barest retardation to the driving stator magnet--really an extension of OC's latch concept, but something that could work at higher speeds without extracting (or adding!) energy from the system, like an electromagnetic latch or damper might. So once again, serendipity operated, and I discovered that the aluminum alloy dampers did the trick--at least they seem to help."
I wonder if anyone tried to build a version with the stators placed on seperate rotors ;) Maybe they would auto-sync ... at least it would be easier to find the right position. But maybe thats just plain wrong.
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 17, 2008, 07:42:10 PM
A quote from Al@steorn, which is interesting in the context of the effect proposed by Lumen:
"...But in spite of that, when I accepted what my eyes were telling me, I realized that the performance could be increased by adding just the barest retardation to the driving stator magnet--really an extension of OC's latch concept, but something that could work at higher speeds without extracting (or adding!) energy from the system, like an electromagnetic latch or damper might. So once again, serendipity operated, and I discovered that the aluminum alloy dampers did the trick--at least they seem to help."
right Ken, that's the way that I understand Lumen's demo... he applied drag to the stator and his rotor gained speed... (in reality his drive motor was relieved of drag so it could turn faster... same thing) so if the dampers can affect it in a similar manner the dampers do appear to play a significant role...
[/quote]
Ever thought of turning down a bit of brass threaded rod. Easy on a lathe , but possible using just a drill and a micrometer. Takes a lot of filing , here is one i prepared earlier
[/quote]
That looks pretty straight forward Craigy Thanks
So if you want to retard the drive stator why not just take a 3/4 inch copper pipe, cut it in half, then place that half on the backside of the stator magnet (away from the rotor) . That should induce drag on the stator. Why induce drag on the rotor ?
TomG
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 17, 2008, 04:00:30 PM
Seems harder to get these new Stator Magnets to latch compared to the Bodged Stators I used before the correct ones turn up.
Spent a couple of hours inserting washers one at a time making the Stators Higher or Lower to try and get the easiest config and also moving the Airgap distance bit by bit, bloody boring stuff I will tell ya LOL
This was without the HDPE surround.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSMkHD3YGHU
Better Resolution at
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/tests/CLaNZeRSOCMPMMNewStators.wmv
Cheers
Sean.
Sean
What i have found is to start the one stator first and than immediately then start the rotor. doing it this way two out of three time i get latch up.
u probably have tried this, but though I'd pass it along anyway. Will send pictures later.
Bill
Hello All,
Something that I just found here OC_MPMM_c.JPG, and was thinking about. Al said, that at one time he used nylon screws in the stators (for the bearings) but it was not firm enough, so he changed to a metal screw. We all are using Brass screws, but that is not what is pictured in that picture, and it does not look like stainless.
If someone could ask Al if these screws are normal nickel steel screws, or stainless, or what for the stators. It could be significant what type of screw is also used, ie..drag, eddy currents, etc.
Believe me, when I say what you put there affects the bearings, which already have a lot of drag from the magnet, 1/16" above. I began assembly of my bearings and brass screws last night, and played a bit with the magnet on top, seperated by a fiber washer. The drag is tremendous.
Please find out from Al what the stator bearing screws are and post it, please! Thank you!
@ Butch
Your rotor looks like it is cut different than Al's. Not sure if this would matter, but it might.
Cheers,
Bruce
from my notes on the stator...
"A Delrin cylinder 0.625 OD x 0.500 long, with axial 0.375 dia hole bored all the way through.
Then one end bored out to 0.500 dia x 0.250 deep, to receive magnet.
Then other end bored out to 0.500 dia x 0.175 deep, to receive bearing.
Magnet and bearing light press-fit into the cylinder.
Magnet is K&J 834DIA, 0.500 x 0.250 x 0.1875
Bearing is generic ball bearing, ferromagnetic, 0.500 x 0.1875 x 0.125
Assembly is mounted to baseplate with a SS #4-40 SHCS with the head trimmed for clearance, magnet up, with a little SS washer between the bearing inner race and the baseplate, for clearance and stability."
Howdy All
Well here's my setup and a bit of data
Rotor bearings - Gulf Bearing # R1-814-HA3 or R188
Stator - Bearings, # R3-HA1
Another
Hi,
Is there anyone on this board whom has access to a cnc machine that can make up the relevant parts? i.E. rotor and stator? I don't have access to a machine but I'm willing to pay for someone to make up the stator and rotor so I only need to add the magnets and whatever other parts are required to make this motor.
Regards,
Dale.
When you're looking at an idea someone is sharing their name is irrelevant. Or if their name is relevant please explain to me why.
Quote from: Butch on January 17, 2008, 03:47:03 PM
. . .
Our group has made the decision that we will not replicate any device in the future who's builder or inventor does not disclose their full name and will not allow public viewing of the device.
. . .
Butch LaFonte
Good evening, OC MPMM replicators.
Has anyone, (with an 8 magnet rotor,) tried placing the 2 GW stators at exactly 45 degrees on both sides of the AGW stator?
I am thinking that the two adjacent GW stators will help keep the AGW stator in sync with the rotor bacause, although the GW stators are GW to the rotor, they are also GW to the AGW stator. Think about it.
If you had 12 rotor magnets then you would have the GW stators only 30 degrees apart from the AGW stator; 16 stators = 22.5 degrees. Basically, divide 360 degrees by an even number of rotor magnets and you get your separation angle.
Has anyone tried this yet; isn't this why you guys drilled and milled out all of those extra holes and slots? 8)
I don't understand why a small wheel with a magnetic field rotating beside a large wheel with magnetic poles on it would produce . . .
a constant velocity of the small (stator?) wheel.
It makes no sense the small wheel should turn at a constant velocity.
Why does anyone think otherwise?
Bessler
mib HQ
edit:
Why would anyone think the magnetic field of the small wheel as it encounters that of the large wheel would maintain a constant velocity of the small wheel? I don't understand.
Quote from: leftcliq on January 17, 2008, 09:41:14 PM
Hi,
Is there anyone on this board whom has access to a cnc machine that can make up the relevant parts? i.E. rotor and stator? I don't have access to a machine but I'm willing to pay for someone to make up the stator and rotor so I only need to add the magnets and whatever other parts are required to make this motor.
Regards,
Dale.
several of us here are in the same boat... UZ said that he had a shop that would do that for us at a reasonable price, ... but maybe he didn't see enough hands go up, I'm not sure what happened to that deal... I am also waiting for pricing, but the shop that I contacted is taking their time preparing the quote... small order... maybe not really worth a lot of effort to them... I'll post pricing when I have it... In the mean time I'm in the market too...
I have been following this discussion for a few days now. Can anyone tell me if there have been any new tests of the original machine in the last few days? Is Al assisting with the many attempts at replication or has he been unavailable? Has Al attempted to replicate the machine?
Even if one argues that the YouTube demonstration does not show over unity, the operational characteristics of the machine are certainly worthy of study as has been shown by the many attempts to replicate the machine. Where is Al and his machine in all this?
I'm certainly one of those people who would argue there is no OU here. Could just a single soul offer a cogent arguement how a closed system could produce OU?
Quote from: Optimus on January 17, 2008, 10:22:28 PM
. . .
Even if one argues that the
YouTube demonstration does not show over unity, the operational characteristics of the machine are certainly worthy of study as has been shown by the many attempts to replicate the machine.
. . .
If the U*tube demonstrates OU how is it doing that? I'm in the dark here.
Bessler007
mib HQ
Quote from: Bessler007 on January 17, 2008, 10:30:17 PM
I'm certainly one of those people who would argue there is no OU here. Could just a single soul offer a cogent arguement how a closed system could produce OU?
Quote from: Optimus on January 17, 2008, 10:22:28 PM
. . .
Even if one argues that the YouTube demonstration does not show over unity, the operational characteristics of the machine are certainly worthy of study as has been shown by the many attempts to replicate the machine.
. . .
If the U*tube demonstrates OU how is it doing that? I'm in the dark here.
Bessler007
mib HQ
I did not mean to imply that there was OU. I am just curious where Al and his machine is when so many people are trying to duplicate his machine...what ever it is.
[/quote]
I did not mean to imply that there was OU. I am just curious where Al and his machine is when so many people are trying to duplicate his machine...what ever it is.
[/quote]
where Al and his machine ARE...
Quote@ blue_
Thanks for the magnet links last night!
I have now ordered my N35 magnets. Now I will be able to test with boths strengths. I just have a funny feeling that the N35 is what is needed, and what was used.
It is obvious from Al's information that this is all about fine tuning, so perhaps with the N35, I can tune to the effect. They will be arriving next week.
Cheers,
Bruce
You're welcome, Bruce! A small thing on my part. Thanks for doing the actual work. I hope it does the trick!
I wish we knew for sure
exactly how long they were in Al's model. What I recall someone who seemed to think they knew whereof they writ wrote is that they were a little over a half an inch and probably N35.
When I watch Al's and Clanzer's videos, I
think that I notice that the length of time that Al's rotor and stator are solidly locked on each 180 degree travel of the stator at push speeds is longer than Clanzer's original replication. That might be consistant with Al's rotor mags being slightly longer than a half inch. Clanzer's new mags are N35 and 13mm long - which is slightly longer than a half inch. So, "we're" ultimately covering the potential ground by semi-blindly trying all the possibilities.
Of course, if Al would just measure the damn thing and tell us that would eliminate a lot of magnet sales. I suppose, at the same time, I feel for the guy. On a smaller scale, I recall the pressure I felt when a horde of people I had never even met were waiting for me to finish the piece of an internet project that had to precede all of theirs. People who are actually doing nothing can get so excited and demanding because they have become invested emotionally in something that they are powerless to actually make progress in themselves.
But, in Al's case, in addition to all the positive exasperation, there's the entire (largish) crowd whose only emotional involvement is in it's failure - and berating those who make the effort, who are fool enough to even dream beyond the edge of the box (most especially Al). It is as if Al has made an OU claim himself - which he wisely has not. But, I've read many posts which suggest that even in not making a claim - he's subtly making one. That, if he was not making a false claim, he would have used clearer plastic, would have used better light for his video, would have run the video for 7 hours, etc. Al has been put in a position to be asked to defend himself from those who make claims in his name - and then condemn him for them. And, to make it all worse, what his model seems to be showing him goes against his own belief in the laws of thermodynamics. There's not enough hours in the day to pursue something like that - but, in addition, Al has a job with deadlines he is responsible for too and is supposed to come first. The combination of all of that is enough to rattle ones wits, I'll bet.
Quote from: Rosphere on January 17, 2008, 09:43:50 PM
Good evening, OC MPMM replicators.
Has anyone, (with an 8 magnet rotor,) tried placing the 2 GW stators at exactly 45 degrees on both sides of the AGW stator?
I am thinking that the two adjacent GW stators will help keep the AGW stator in sync with the rotor bacause, although the GW stators are GW to the rotor, they are also GW to the AGW stator. Think about it.
If you had 12 rotor magnets then you would have the GW stators only 30 degrees apart from the AGW stator; 16 stators = 22.5 degrees. Basically, divide 360 degrees by an even number of rotor magnets and you get your separation angle.
Has anyone tried this yet; isn't this why you guys drilled and milled out all of those extra holes and slots? 8)
This example uses 10 rotor magnets. Each sketch below is 9 degrees of rotor rotation.
Baseline configuration is 36 degrees between stators. This can be reduced by one degree at a time on one or both sides to experiment with squeezing, stretching, or skewing this relationship.
Hi All,
Has anyone tryed this motor setup using only one stator and a variable air source to spin the rotor to a hi rpm? Thats to see if magnetic latching takes place at various rpms while the rotor is spinning up.
Then if that fails --Reposition the stator either closer or further away from the rotor and repeat the same thing.
Something should occur as we have taken out two variables ( the other two stators).
Remember in the original movie clip the rotor kept spinning after two stators were stopped and the rotor accelerated even more.
It strikes me if everyone trys this simple test with their particular setup someone should make it happen. If replication attempts are not able to do this then this motor idea should be given the hoax of the year award.
Tom
Hi Tom
I have manage tonight to get 2 of the stator Mag's to sycn up, when this happen the rotation input energy(my hand) gets a lot easier and it seems to try to run, but that dirty old bugger "drag" slowly takes it toll. Going to work on the drag aspect to see if i can reduce it.
Bill
Hi Bill,
I am getting ready right now to place my stators in position.
If I picked a certain hole to start in (out of the 13 holes) drilled in the base of the original drawing which hole do you have your other stator in? Thats both stators giving you the best results. I would like to start there and worry about the last stator location later. I believe I have the answer to drag but I have to test it out.
Count holes clockwise 1 to 13.
Tom
Well, I don?t want to sound like a pessimist or rain
On anyone?s parade but I think some might want to ponder this
On Magnetic Gearing.
a spinning magnetic rotor (driven) is connected to
Satellite gears through magnets (magnetically ?cogged? together).
*Energy* would be transferable from the rotor to the satellite gears
just like a regular gear set.
I.e. A load could be put on the satellite gears and the (driven) rotor would have to
Work harder.
If the satellite gears where stalled, the transfer of energy from the
rotor to the satellite gears would have to be zero (because the cogging would be slipping).
BUT wouldn't there be any drag on the rotor (magnetic frictionless coupling)
Just frictionless ?bumping? ? and the (driven) rotor would *speed up* due to reduced load?
something to think about.
Some interesting magnetic gearing,
Check out the vid?s,
http://www.infolytica.com/en%5Ccoolstuff%5Cex0106/
Vid link at bottom,
http://www.magnomatics.com/magneticgearing.php
Quote from: magnetman12003 on January 18, 2008, 12:31:31 AM
Hi Bill,
I am getting ready right now to place my stators in position.
If I picked a certain hole to start in (out of the 13 holes) drilled in the base of the original drawing which hole do you have your other stator in? Thats both stators giving you the best results. I would like to start there and worry about the last stator location later. I believe I have the answer to drag but I have to test it out.
Count holes clockwise 1 to 13.
Tom
Hi Tom
Take a lok at the drawing attached. i am in the 8 oclock position with the strongest stator and the 3 oclock position for the second.
12 being the top of the drawing.
I took two screen shots on my scope showing the relationship of the stator and rotor at the crossing of the stator while in AGW rotational lock.
Someone could maybe overlay them for a better reference.
So they can call you up at all hours of the day or night and pester the cra* out of you for details..
Quote from: Bessler007 on January 17, 2008, 09:42:47 PM
When you're looking at an idea someone is sharing their name is irrelevant. Or if their name is relevant please explain to me why.
Quote from: Butch on January 17, 2008, 03:47:03 PM
. . .
Our group has made the decision that we will not replicate any device in the future who's builder or inventor does not disclose their full name and will not allow public viewing of the device.
. . .
Butch LaFonte
Nice looking replication.. I think there are suppose to be 8 rotor magnets not 6. Might make a big difference in getting it to work. Of course maybe 6 will work better. At this stage it is still an open field.
Quote from: vipond50 on January 17, 2008, 09:29:14 PM
Howdy All
Well here's my setup and a bit of data
Rotor bearings - Gulf Bearing # R1-814-HA3 or R188
Stator - Bearings, # R3-HA1
Quote from: hydrocontrol on January 18, 2008, 01:28:02 AM
Nice looking replication.. I think there are suppose to be 8 rotor magnets not 6. Might make a big difference in getting it to work. Of course maybe 6 will work better. At this stage it is still an open field.
Quote from: vipond50 on January 17, 2008, 09:29:14 PM
Howdy All
Well here's my setup and a bit of data
Rotor bearings - Gulf Bearing # R1-814-HA3 or R188
Stator - Bearings, # R3-HA1
Yes i know, but just had to try it. Also have an 8 count rotor, but not setup yet.
Going to finish it up tomorrow. LOL
Bill
Al(vis) has left the building ..... Sorry I just couldn't resist ;D
Great job to all.
Forgive me If this has been covered already (even thought I read the whole thread since the beggining and I have not noticed it). Did you guys notice on the video that there is some "shinning" piece of metal on the sides of the rotor that when spinning it goes in between the rotor and the stators? and they look to me like aluminum.
It could be that Al uses them as a "breaking the loop" so to skeap so it helps in closing the loop? There was another thread here on overunity where someone has experimented with that idea to a great extend including videos.
Fausto.
QuoteQuote from: Butch on January 17, 2008, 08:47:03 PM
. . .
Our group has made the decision that we will not replicate any device in the future who's builder or inventor does not disclose their full name and will not allow public viewing of the device.
. . .
Butch LaFonte
I don't quite understand Mr. LaFonte's perspective. He seems to believe that he has earned the implied leverage to control this research process. Has anyone ever heard of Butch LaFonte and the LaFonte Group before this? Is there some implied negative to the LaFonte Group not being involved? He threatens that they "will not allow public viewing"? I just did an internet search - and the LaFonte Group doesn't seem to have the same gravitas as, say, the Smithsonian. The mental image I'm left with is of a man pointing a gun at his own head and demanding, "Do what I say - or the blonde gets it!"
Quote from: plengo on January 18, 2008, 01:50:58 AM
Great job to all.
Forgive me If this has been covered already (even thought I read the whole thread since the beggining and I have not noticed it). Did you guys notice on the video that there is some "shinning" piece of metal on the sides of the rotor that when spinning it goes in between the rotor and the stators? and they look to me like aluminum.
It could be that Al uses them as a "breaking the loop" so to skeap so it helps in closing the loop? There was another thread here on overunity where someone has experimented with that idea to a great extend including videos.
Fausto.
Hi Fausto,
GREAT observation! I don't think anyone mentioned that. I took a screen shot from the video so everyone else could see what that was... It could make all the difference in the world.
Could someone please get in touch with Al and ask him about this??
God Bless,
Jason O
EDIT: That could just be a piece of tape used to take the RPM measurements though. Still, it wouldn't hurt to check.
Getting in touch with Al seems to be quite difficult .. maybe he is in meetings with big oil negotiating his exit strategy :P
Research scientists at the Men in Black Foundation have investigated this effect and concluded it's not an Over Unity phenomena. I can assure you if we thought it were we would dispatch the black helicopters.
The MIB is a quasi-governmental organization that has operated on the periphery of societal legal boundaries since its inception. We have no association with the LaFonte Group nor have we ever.
Bessler007
mib HQ
From the animation, scope shot and strobe picture we can see how the rotor and stator magnets interact.
It is the midle stator that is rotating in AGW lock. This is not made by me, but I think it show very clear the position.
Svein
I reckon Al is doing whatever he thinks is a fair deal; I haven't read any selfishness or evasiveness into his posts. A lot of questions and accusations are from people who haven't bothered to read anything that Al has posted. I'm a skeptic and I don't think this device will work (I hope beyond skepticism it will), but I can't fault anything that Al has said to this point honesty-wise. If it doesn't work for others I am giving the benefit of the doubt that there was something unnoticed that contributed to the anomaly. I'm assuming when he's ready he'll post some observations, but don't expect them here as he has stated he won't be posting in here. Has anyone read his post that he has to work until 9PM some nights at his job? Anyone notice how many nights he went sleep-free whilst still going to work (the forum does record posts hour-after-hour over 24 hour periods). How many people work so late and have time to run crazy experiments and have question/answer time for everybody whilst also committing family time?
Anyway, enough ranting, back to lurking ;).
Hi,
Quote from: ebswift on January 18, 2008, 05:23:37 AM
How many people work so late and have time to run crazy experiments and have question/answer time for everybody whilst also committing family time?
I have been working till about 11:30 most evenings + weekends (full day at work, then come home cook tea, wash up and work on until bed time), but that leaves no time to build and test this, only time to order parts.
Should have some free time in the next few weeks. :)
Quote from: sveinutne on January 18, 2008, 05:11:47 AM
From the animation, scope shot and strobe picture we can see how the rotor and stator magnets interact.
It is the midle stator that is rotating in AGW lock. This is not made by me, but I think it show very clear the position.
The important measurement is surely the distance between magnets but it because Sean built his so close to Al's dimensions, it works out the same anyway. The only thing I can think is the N42 rotor magnets are forcing Sean to use a bigger stator to rotor gap.
Regards
Rob
It seems to me that in the photo of Al's his stators dont have a brass pole all the way to the top as seen in Seans pic.
Additionally it looks like he uses red texta on them to mark the poles, maybe red goes faster :P
Quote from: sveinutne on January 18, 2008, 05:11:47 AM
...This is not made by me, but I think it show very clear the position.
Svein
Thank you for reposting my sketch. (See reply #1101 on p.74.)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D3871.0%3Battach%3D16584%3Bimage&hash=4b4f82db8d94871eb23bd9202f4a50658ecd75de)
I posted it to help clarify my question in reply #1093 on p.73. I had asked if anyone with a configurable unit had tried this arrangement.
Now I ask, can someone please try?
Below is a slight 'in-line' variation on the theme. Again, playing with the exact stator positions will yield different results. The general concept here is that the adjacent GW stators will help keep the AGW stator in sync.
Quote from: blue_energy on January 18, 2008, 02:08:37 AM
He threatens that they "will not allow public viewing"?
That's not what he said. He said that his group will not test a device unless the originator of the device discloses his full name and allows public viewing of the device.
From what I read earlier, his group had 2 or 3 copies made of the device, so his negative test results come from 2 or 3 attempts. Clanzer's device, another close copy from the looks of it, also has failed so far.
Since the only thing that counts is successful replication, it is looking more and more like the original device was a fake.
Quote from: hydrocontrol on January 17, 2008, 08:34:10 PM
So if you want to retard the drive stator why not just take a 3/4 inch copper pipe, cut it in half, then place that half on the backside of the stator magnet (away from the rotor) . That should induce drag on the stator. Why induce drag on the rotor ?
TomG
One explanation is this...
The "theory" behind the Steorn Orbo is "fast in, slow out".
The say they have found some "magnetic viscosity" effect when magnets interact at high speeds, that there is a very small time lag in the "reaction" of the magnetic fields to each other.
The idea is that this can create a natural imbalance, in what would otherwise be a balanced interaction as the magnets pass each other, and then you extract this difference to do work.
In the OC MPMM device here, when the stator and rotor are in repulsion, the stator wants to speed up, and if you slow it down at this point, I guess the idea is you are creating something like Steorns "slow out".
What if the stator magnets were to be made movable , for a while.
Make those movable in the way that they can move around the plate on a bigger diameter in a groove like this "("
And after this make the stator magnets loose and rotate the plate with the help of a motor and see if the stator magnets stop to a certain position in the groove that was made earlier..Lock the stator magnets and and try with this setup?
Just like the way they try to find out the best place to put subwoofer. Put the subwoofer where you sit, and find the place where it sounds best..
Just an idea, hopefully you understood what i meant :)
Quote from: blue_energy on January 18, 2008, 02:08:37 AM
Since the only thing that counts is successful replication, it is looking more and more like the original device was a fake.
[/quote]
There has been enough video evidence besides Al's video to show that there is something strange going on between the rotor and the stator. Even Al had stated it took weeks of playing around and multiple stators to get it to work. And that was just by chance. It is more like the original is a fluke than a fake. Just the right combination of rotor / stator mass, distance, magnet strength..etc ... With multiple people working and dissecting what has been present and documented I feel it will eventually get figured out and maybe a better system that is easier to reproduce will be presented. Or maybe it will be determined it is a fake. With just a couple weeks out of the starting gate it really is to hard to tell and I am not ready yet to proclaim it is dead.
Quote from: hydrocontrol on January 18, 2008, 08:37:35 AM
Quote from: blue_energy on January 18, 2008, 02:08:37 AM
Since the only thing that counts is successful replication, it is looking more and more like the original device was a fake.
There has been enough video evidence besides Al's video to show that there is something strange going on between the rotor and the stator.
[/quote]
What? I didn't think anybody had gotten acceleration, just agw lock, which is chickenfeed, apparently.
Quote
With just a couple weeks out of the starting gate it really is to hard to tell and I am not ready yet to proclaim it is dead.
Maybe so, but I doubt it. I think it is as dead as Stiffler's amazing circuit. Dead, dead, dead.
Don't know if anyone else has noticed this but things could be misleading.
1) the little square something on the edge of the rotor to the left of the top marking.(pointed out earlier)
2) The rotor is actually made of a clear type of plastic, not white, This is demonstrated by the sticky tape put on the top makes the that area clear. Just like when you [ut clear sticky tape on a frosted window you can see clearly through it. I would say the white colouring is just a rough surface from milling or cuttin. It is not that the rotor is opaque. This may mean that the HDPE which I think is white is not what the rotor is mode of.
3) Through the clear area of the rotor yo can see the central shaft. Maybe more information can be found here also.
Just some notes while I wait to hear more from the replicatiors.
Bernard
ps. Dr. Stiffler's circuit is dead yet by far. It is also the only 'free energy' device I have seen work. Evenm though it is not in the megawatts. I would like to see you ligt 50 leds with a single wire with no energy input.
Quote from: lumen on January 18, 2008, 01:11:05 AM
I took two screen shots on my scope showing the relationship of the stator and rotor at the crossing of the stator while in AGW rotational lock.
Someone could maybe overlay them for a better reference.
Thanks Lumen for sharing this!
You guys probably know a LOT more than I do about magnetic fields so I hope you don't mind me stating some observations I have made while playing with some magnets, under very primitive circumstances.
1. Compared the point where magnet overcomes the moment of inertia for a screw and a staple. Result both seemed to start at the same distance from the magnet.
2. Attraction of NS poles can supply a turning moment of just over 120degrees.
3. Magnetic fields do not seem to react instantaneously to each other when another magnet is travelling at speed, but this may just be due to friction in the system or the problem of overcoming the moment of inertia of the mass holding a magnetic field.
4. Obviously a very small change at the point where N changes to S starts a 180degree(?) movement in another freely rotating magnet. (? because the attracting poles 'hang on' for as long as they can!)
5. Observation seems to suggest that the acceleration of magnet to magnet or magnet to steel or strong magnet to weak magnet is the same for each of these situations but difficult to confirm.
Have looked to confirm these observations but with no result if someone can post a link showing me any or all these observation are incorrect I would be grateful.
Have a feeling that confirming these experiments and observations may help in tuning the OC-MPMM.
Copied from the Steorn forum.
Quote
He told us he was sure it was not OU, and was due to a 17000 joule source of energy (a double-A battery?). The clues were all there, but we didn't tumble to the joke; instead, people spent time and money building replicas.
In that case, If I were in Al's shoes, I might be too embarrassed to admit the joke at this point.
Two NiMH AA batteries will deliver 18144 joules
http://www.allaboutbatteries.com/Energy-tables.html (http://www.allaboutbatteries.com/Energy-tables.html)
Draw your own conclusions
Quote from: canam101 on January 18, 2008, 08:55:25 AM
What? I didn't think anybody had gotten acceleration, just agw lock, which is chickenfeed, apparently.
CLaNZeR got one of his early rigs to accelerate for a moment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9au4O6_QuSs
Also Omnibus reportedly got his setup to accelerate, so it is just a matter of time.
Patience young caterpillar...
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: RunningBare on January 18, 2008, 09:33:13 AM
Copied from the Steorn forum.
Quote
He told us he was sure it was not OU, and was due to a 17000 joule source of energy (a double-A battery?). The clues were all there, but we didn't tumble to the joke; instead, people spent time and money building replicas.
In that case, If I were in Al's shoes, I might be too embarrassed to admit the joke at this point.
Two NiMH AA batteries will deliver 18144 joules
http://www.allaboutbatteries.com/Energy-tables.html (http://www.allaboutbatteries.com/Energy-tables.html)
Draw your own conclusions
The entire exchange was based on the math of the time it took to decelerate. The statement in context. Also, another Steorn Forum member assisted with the math, if I recall.
He has actually encouraged people to replicate, so I do not think that at all. We have had what, three or four replications, some with positive results, and everyone is ready to shoot the messenger. Not me. ;D
Some people are actually trust worthy. Just because a few could not self sustain, yet, does not make Al a liar.
Cheers,
Bruce
Hello all... sorry for not having posted any updates on the purchase of milled parts... I will not be pursuing this design any longer as the original video is most likely a misrepresentation.
I think maybe AL had given up on the designs for OC... but thought maybe some interest might spark further testing and replications... This is just MY opinion and not based on anyone else's.
The very fact that ANYONE would build something like this, and pour pessimism, evading the possibility of OU so vehemently is ridiculous. I would pee my pants as I think most of you would if you could make this thing run like in his video.
He already put up one video, a second better video would be very easy.
Replicators keep on keepin on, but beware you may have nothing more than an interesting toy and a sore finger....
You guys are awesome... for now I will go back to grazing this and many other forums on my search for potential OU.... at least this one got me to register... @ Clanzer, I have registered in your forum... I admire your abilities, and your perseverance in building all these gadgets, I truly believe if anyone can replicate something it would be you.
I'll be watching, but with a more skeptical eye...
-peace out!
UZ
Jason,
I appears that CLaNZeR has shown some promise in the video link you posted. It did accelerate for a moment, but I did notice that he did not use the dampers on as of yet. Definitely more to check and test it seems. From all that I have seen it appears it is a mix of several factors that need to be mastered in order to obtain the operation.
While I am not replicating I am hoping that you guys continue to pursue this and achieve success in your replications!
This parrot's stuffed !! .. canman .. your a pessimist :P
Well enough of Sore fingers this end trying randon configs, so now I am happy with my Rotor and Stators, will start the boring task of altering Stator height and Air Gap.
Movie update below:
YouTube fair resolution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giR97ydMY2I
Or higher Resolution on direct download link
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSRuler1.wmv
Cheers
Sean.
Nice vid CLaNZeR...!
:) ;) :D ;D ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
ha ha ha
Dan
Quote from: vipond50 on January 17, 2008, 09:29:14 PM
Howdy All
Well here's my setup and a bit of data
Rotor bearings - Gulf Bearing # R1-814-HA3 or R188
Stator - Bearings, # R3-HA1
Looking very good mate, well done.
Cheers
Sean.
EDIT I just noticed you only got 6 rotor magnets?
Quote from: Dansway on January 18, 2008, 01:10:31 PM
Nice vid CLaNZeR...!
:) ;) :D ;D ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
ha ha ha
Dan
hehe thanks Dan, I think we might need some Voodoo to get it to work ;D ;D ;D ;D
QuoteThe very fact that ANYONE would build something like this, and pour pessimism, evading the possibility of OU so vehemently is ridiculous. I would pee my pants as I think most of you would if you could make this thing run like in his video.
@unzapped
I think Als statement on Jan. 5 is a reasonable, skeptical, scientific way to look at it:
<<<
Please, no theorizing until we know the facts.
It spins, we don't know why, it's probably a worse mistake than even Steorn made.
Later I will be able to explore the issue further.
All this talk about Faraday meeting Saul on the road to Damascus makes me nervous.
>>>
QuoteHe already put up one video, a second better video would be very easy.
True. It
would be easy. And if he were in the process of attempting to convince everyone that he has discovered the key to mankind's energy needs forever - it would be odd if he did not. But, he's not trying to convince anyone of anything. I suspect, at least, that he doesn't care what anyone else thinks. Big Claims require Big Proof. He has resisted the urge to bias his judgement by concluding anything until more research has been done. He's asking us to allow what we see to be relegated to the realm of the unknown until there is more evidence. Real science is stepwise, patient, and often boring. As to why he hasn't made progress on it lately: he has said he has pressing commitments at work that demand his time.
QuoteReplicators keep on keepin on, but beware you may have nothing more than an interesting toy and a sore finger....
You may well be right about that. But, the only way to know for sure is to experiment and see. Any replicator who is only doing it because he 'knows' he's going to witness overunity - may well fail whereas those who are merely attempting to document the truth about this fascinating effect - are more likely to find it, whatever it is.
Quote from: unzapped on January 18, 2008, 11:51:48 AM
Hello all... sorry for not having posted any updates on the purchase of milled parts... I will not be pursuing this design any longer as the original video is most likely a misrepresentation.
Hey UZ, would you mind sharing the contact info of your machine shop? whatever this turns out to be I'd at least want a souvenir!
Suppose we have three diametrically-opposed rotating-stator-magnets, without a rotor for now, placed equidistant from one another in a triangle shape, (image below.)
If we rotate the top stator CCW we first expect that the other two stators will respond in a GW fashion and move in a CW direction. Not so fast, these two stators are now moving AGW with respect to one another.
I wonder how this equilateral triangle arrangement would resolve itself after receiving a good spin to one of them. Would it be quick, or would it take awhile? Would there be many stator spin reversals and patterns of such movements?
I am not sure if this has much to do with anything. I was just thinking about that three inline stator design, that I proposed earlier in this thread, and making a device capable of sliding that center stator in and out. At one point far enough out the stators will become equidistant from one other. I was just pondering the isolated dynamics of this configuration out loud for anyone that may be interested some magnetic mental gymnastics. :-\
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 18, 2008, 01:05:19 PM
Well enough of Sore fingers this end trying randon configs, so now I am happy with my Rotor and Stators, will start the boring task of altering Stator height and Air Gap.
Movie update below:
YouTube fair resolution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giR97ydMY2I
Or higher Resolution on direct download link
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSRuler1.wmv
Cheers
Sean.
@ CLaNZer
I noticed that you have taped the OD of the rotor -- presumably to improve aerodynamics.
Al
did not tape his rotor, and it's possible that subsequent air movement within the channels created a static charge.
Comment?
.
Quote from: Rosphere on January 18, 2008, 02:16:48 PM
Suppose we have three diametrically-opposed rotating-stator-magnets, without a rotor for now, placed equidistant from one another in a triangle shape, (image below.)
If we rotate the top stator CCW we first expect that the other two stators will respond in a GW fashion and move in a CW direction. Not so fast, these two stators are now moving AGW with respect to one another.
I wonder how this equilateral triangle arrangement would resolve itself after receiving a good spin to one of them. Would it be quick, or would it take awhile? Would there be many stator spin reversals and patterns of such movements?
I am not sure if this has much to do with anything. I was just thinking about that three inline stator design, that I proposed earlier in this thread, and making a device capable of sliding that center stator in and out. At one point far enough out the stators will become equidistant from one other. I was just pondering the isolated dynamics of this configuration out loud for anyone that may be interested some magnetic mental gymnastics. :-\
sounds like "magnetic frustration"
Added:
I see what your getting at btw but,
The rotor cogging would be the main interaction.
The ?sun gears? would follow the rotor if the force
Is stronger than the frustration of the sun gears.
And no OU just normal magnetic interactions/repulsion.
and a rotor that speeds up when the sun gears are stalled.
But who knows, everyone seems to be having fun anyways.
lol.
http://miranda.chemistry.mcmaster.ca/greedan/research2.htm
@ Rosphere,
way ahead of ya bud!
Regards,
Dan
Quote from: Dansway on January 18, 2008, 03:07:48 PM
@ Rosphere,
way ahead of ya bud!
Regards,
Dan
Hmmm... Great Scot... it's starting to look more and more like a flux capacitor every day :-)
hmmm... are you trying to crate a state of perpetual imbalance?
....well arn't we all... :D
@ Dan
This reminds me of the old MXLO motor, maybe we didn't spin the rotor fast enough.
I am still waiting for my Stator magnets and driving me nuts watching you guys.
But anyhow looking at Al video if you notice as he spins the center stator the rotor does not turn very much, but the 2 other is seems to lock the rotor right away. Maybe the center is spaced further away from rotor, so retest this out.
And also if you spin the rotor with motor at a fixed rate 1700 RPM then adjust the stator to lock in at 4200 RPM as Al said you should be close to timing I think, I will do this at a later test.
Wayne
Did you hear the joke about the blonde that could not read?
Mk2 in production , when will i learn lol..
Quote from: magpower on January 18, 2008, 03:23:01 PM
But anyhow looking at Al video if you notice as he spins the center stator the rotor does not turn very much, but the 2 other is seems to lock the rotor right away. Maybe the center is spaced further away from rotor, so retest this out.
Wayne
Hey Wayne,
This was brought up over at Steorn, an Al replied that they all cog the same, it just depends on the position of the rotor at the time.
Quote from: Butch on January 18, 2008, 03:27:44 PM
Did you hear the joke about the blonde that could not read?
@ Butch
You did a good copy but was shocked you fast your team gave up. Al did show some good data on RPM's and this would prove a point. I guess its on the shelf now- sad
Wayne
Quote from: Yadaraf on January 18, 2008, 02:37:35 PM
[
@ CLaNZer
I noticed that you have taped the OD of the rotor -- presumably to improve aerodynamics.
Al did not tape his rotor, and it's possible that subsequent air movement within the channels created a static charge.
Comment?
The Tape is to black out the edge with a reflective strip attached for the Tacho.
Quote from: blue_energy on January 18, 2008, 01:28:09 PM
QuoteThe very fact that ANYONE would build something like this, and pour pessimism, evading the possibility of OU so vehemently is ridiculous. I would pee my pants as I think most of you would if you could make this thing run like in his video.
@unzapped
I think Als statement on Jan. 5 is a reasonable, skeptical, scientific way to look at it:
<<<
Please, no theorizing until we know the facts.
It spins, we don't know why, it's probably a worse mistake than even Steorn made.
Later I will be able to explore the issue further.
All this talk about Faraday meeting Saul on the road to Damascus makes me nervous.
>>>
QuoteHe already put up one video, a second better video would be very easy.
True. It would be easy. And if he were in the process of attempting to convince everyone that he has discovered the key to mankind's energy needs forever - it would be odd if he did not. But, he's not trying to convince anyone of anything. I suspect, at least, that he doesn't care what anyone else thinks. Big Claims require Big Proof. He has resisted the urge to bias his judgement by concluding anything until more research has been done. He's asking us to allow what we see to be relegated to the realm of the unknown until there is more evidence. Real science is stepwise, patient, and often boring. As to why he hasn't made progress on it lately: he has said he has pressing commitments at work that demand his time.
QuoteReplicators keep on keepin on, but beware you may have nothing more than an interesting toy and a sore finger....
You may well be right about that. But, the only way to know for sure is to experiment and see. Any replicator who is only doing it because he 'knows' he's going to witness overunity - may well fail whereas those who are merely attempting to document the truth about this fascinating effect - are more likely to find it, whatever it is.
Hi blue_
I could not have said that better! ;) :D ;D
The sound of reason is always music to my ears!! LOL
Happy experimenting we will go, indeed!
@ Sean
Very nice video. Great promise.
Perserverence is not measured by the number of hours or days, but by the steady, patient tuning, of a man on a mission. Thank you for showing continued diligence. ;)
Three more of us will quickly be joining you.
Warm regards,
Bruce
Oops! Dbl post. :)
Quote from: Craigy on January 18, 2008, 03:31:54 PM
Mk2 in production , when will i learn lol..
Looking good mate.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 18, 2008, 03:47:40 PM
Quote from: Yadaraf on January 18, 2008, 02:37:35 PM
[
@ CLaNZer
I noticed that you have taped the OD of the rotor -- presumably to improve aerodynamics.
Al did not tape his rotor, and it's possible that subsequent air movement within the channels created a static charge.
Comment?
The Tape is to black out the edge with a reflective strip attached for the Tacho.
@ CLaNZeR
Is it possible that air flow through the rotor channels develops static charges?
Does the tape in your model need to block the channels, or can the tape be applied only to the area beneath the channels?
???
Thanks...
Everyone attempting to replicate this device, before you go any further you really need to ensure you have read this thread (below) from start to finish (finish being a few day's after the video was released). There are many things mentioned on this thread that not all replicators appears to have picked up. height and distance of stators included.
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=1 (http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=1)
Quote from: jwk on January 18, 2008, 04:03:56 PM
Everyone attempting to replicate this device, before you go any further you really need to ensure you have read this thread (below) from start to finish (finish being a few day's after the video was released). There are many things mentioned on this thread that not all replicators appears to have picked up. height and distance of stators included.
Or easier to read this that has all the important points compiled into it
http://www.ospmm.org/whipmag/pdf/OC_motor_011708.pdf
Compliments of http://www.ospmm.org/forum/
Quote from: Yadaraf on January 18, 2008, 03:59:51 PM
@ CLaNZeR
Is it possible that air flow through the rotor channels develops static charges?
Does the tape in your model need to block the channels, or can the tape be applied only to the area beneath the channels?
Hi Yardaraf
AL's did come up with the Static Theory and hence why I changed to HDPE but thenhe switched to the stray EMF theory.
I do not have open channels on my model as the picture belows, so does not effect it.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FSnr8.jpg&hash=c195921735c21e43dcf8753773f7996d4e127d6c)
Must admit I had better results using the Polycarbonate and different stator magnets.
But testing is not over yet.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: btentzer on January 18, 2008, 03:48:53 PM
@ Sean
Very nice video. Great promise.
Perserverence is not measured by the number of hours or days, but by the steady, patient tuning, of a man on a mission. Thank you for showing continued diligence. ;)
Hi Bruce
And thx for your comments.
I have spent too much time on this and really should be getting back to work and paying the bills :) But hey everyone got to have a holiday sometime and what I have done, spent that holiday on this stuf LOL ;D ;D ;D
Hopefully after this weekend I will have my conclusion.
Cheers
Sean.
Thought you Guy's might like this.
http://www.ospmm.org/whipmag/pdf/OC_motor_011708.pdf
All 120 pages :o
Den
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 18, 2008, 04:10:34 PM
Quote from: Yadaraf on January 18, 2008, 03:59:51 PM
@ CLaNZeR
Is it possible that air flow through the rotor channels develops static charges?
Does the tape in your model need to block the channels, or can the tape be applied only to the area beneath the channels?
Hi Yardaraf
AL's did come up with the Static Theory and hence why I changed to HDPE but thenhe switched to the stray EMF theory.
I do not have open channels on my model as the picture belows, so does not effect it.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2FSnr8.jpg&hash=c195921735c21e43dcf8753773f7996d4e127d6c)
Must admit I had better results using the Polycarbonate and different stator magnets.
But testing is not over yet.
Cheers
Sean.
@ CLaNZeR
Much obliged, Sean.
I see now that your rotor is machined with a slight difference, and you'll be able to remove the excess if need be. If you are successful with the "aerodynamic" rotor, then so much the better. :)
Fantastic work BTW. I envy you guys who have the fabrication facilities.
I have plans for a smaller system that includes computer control of rotor/stator spin-up and stator XYZ placement for automated tuning. I'm not sure how far I will get, but your
sore fingers would appreciate the approach. I let computers optimize systems while I do other things.
Cheers,
Yada
.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 18, 2008, 01:05:19 PM
Well enough of Sore fingers this end trying randon configs, so now I am happy with my Rotor and Stators, will start the boring task of altering Stator height and Air Gap.
Movie update below:
YouTube fair resolution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giR97ydMY2I
Or higher Resolution on direct download link
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSRuler1.wmv
Cheers
Sean.
Clanzer,
I can stop chuckling while watching your video. Definitely the best video so far... well maybe second best, behind Al's. 8)
I do not envy what your finger has waiting for it this weekend. ::)
It seems that there are too many variables at play here. Such as the separation of stator and rotor, diameter of rotor, phase angle, magnet strength, number of magnets on rotor/stator, RPM , heights etc etc.
Its next to impossible to get it working if you build it to some fixed specs(?), where there is not much room for experimenting. What is needed is a setup where you can vary as many parameters as possible without re-building the machine again and again. I started thinking of something like that and tried making a 3D model, which some may find useful and I encourage the experimentators here to build something similar.
Remember its not a machine, but an apparatus to experiment with. It may work at some magic combination of hundreds of possible combinations, or it may not.....
Here is a basic setup, with a rotor arm that is mounted on bearings on an axle and a stator arm that is on the same axle, and is rotatable as well as can be secured in position using a "key". You just tighten the key until it cannot be moved.
Both arms have "Sliders" (blocks that slide over the arm and can be secured with a key). The one on rotor arm has a "Magnet holder" which holds the rotor magnet in place. The stator arm has a "Rotating stator holder" whose function you can guess.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg80.imageshack.us%2Fimg80%2F4306%2Fsideoo8.jpg&hash=de41792a52db5479bc7c8c126ffa801cf214cfde)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg88.imageshack.us%2Fimg88%2F3175%2Fperpectivexg9.jpg&hash=0246b9298677e98b51c1ce2fbd456e6597c7c255)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg525.imageshack.us%2Fimg525%2F7239%2Ftopsk1.jpg&hash=4f6db93fec41132b47cf97bf1f9d4225aa9cac25)
Below you can see how various parameters can be changed easily.
Changing the rotor dia, height and separation from stator.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg174.imageshack.us%2Fimg174%2F8469%2Fside2gf9.jpg&hash=92e74d5793737ca758e7c5d2bde05b6e2843eb42)
Changing the phase.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg249.imageshack.us%2Fimg249%2F3083%2Ftop2kv4.jpg&hash=07a2a6000093041856de76b473b9b1791898e1a5)
Even a kinetica-toy-like (rotor and stator at 90 degree) or Perendev-like (angled rotor magnets) arrangement can be tried.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg142.imageshack.us%2Fimg142%2F8333%2Fperpective4bm8.jpg&hash=58d4ae1c4f3753aa65cf3d4626fcfed71cef45ec)
The above was basic setup with one arm each, just to show everything clearly. A practical setup would be like this...
With 8 rotor magnets and 3 stator rotating magnets, for example...
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg408.imageshack.us%2Fimg408%2F7326%2Ftop3dk7.jpg&hash=8b4055e55e623797b075164883e002b254718463)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg138.imageshack.us%2Fimg138%2F1199%2Fperpective2ya5.jpg&hash=2d38cec8ac50cb79879bf22cb554e9ef5ae5d5ff)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg138.imageshack.us%2Fimg138%2F1524%2Fperpective3sb4.jpg&hash=d920a1a63389ff99a374e00fbffb147fc41026b1)
Now you get even more things to adjust, like various asymmetries and various rotor/stator magnet ratios etc.
The components are simple and same design repeats mostly, there are a few unique things on which you can built up.
Its not a weekend job, it may take years to find the correct combination. All you need to do is start varying each and every parameter and plot a graph for that combination. Some intelligent guesswork should help (or may be a dream like OC's :)LOL)
Best of luck finding the sweet spot.
Quote from: RunningBare on January 18, 2008, 09:33:13 AM
Copied from the Steorn forum.
Quote
He told us he was sure it was not OU, and was due to a 17000 joule source of energy (a double-A battery?). The clues were all there, but we didn't tumble to the joke; instead, people spent time and money building replicas.
In that case, If I were in Al's shoes, I might be too embarrassed to admit the joke at this point.
Two NiMH AA batteries will deliver 18144 joules
http://www.allaboutbatteries.com/Energy-tables.html (http://www.allaboutbatteries.com/Energy-tables.html)
Draw your own conclusions
Doh! hahahaha,,,
Well at least everyone has a rotating test bed of some sort.
How about ditching the magnets and trying an electrostatic coupling.
Quote from: Yadaraf on January 18, 2008, 04:53:54 PM
I have plans for a smaller system that includes computer control of rotor/stator spin-up and stator XYZ placement for automated tuning. I'm not sure how far I will get, but your sore fingers would appreciate the approach. I let computers optimize systems while I do other things.
Cheers,
Yada
.
Oh yes, if you add stepper motors that are hooked to a PC, to vary everything automatically and precisely, in above apparatus, you can simply leave it running for a month and come back and print out the OU combination ready made for you..... ;D
Now this I call brute force.... :P
Hi sharp & accurate (N)PMM builders and freaks!
Sorry for disturbing, just my 2c :
Are all these N?PMM a matter of magic, serendipity, chance, patience or else? Are they reserved for PK (psychokinesis) gifted individuals?
A 83 years old retired engineer friend of mine has recently designed a self starting and self running (unfortunately for just a little while =/= 3/4 hour :( ) permanent magnet device. He insist that this thing must be very very accurately tuned (less than one milmeter). After that time you have to replace this ring shaped ferrite micro wave oven magnet.
BTW: I have been told that ferrite and 'neo' magnets were not 'friends' and that you must mot mingle them. was I been told right?
I have shown his very device. Guess what? He was not able to get it running! Anyway, I trust him.
A couple of years ago I purchased a LEVITRON. Me and my son were also not able to have it turning! However this LEVITRON is now an 'official' device. Of course we could be morons. :P
I offered this (useless) LEVITRON my aged friend.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffreenrg.info%2FImg%2FJSMotor.GIF&hash=3586bc8ecf9e44e82277cbbc6db3789218ffdafc)
Best
Omega,
I'd call it the Orbonator. Cool graphics.
Bessler007
Quote from: Omega_0 on January 18, 2008, 05:09:20 PM
. . .
Here is a basic setup, with a rotor arm that is mounted on bearings on an axle and a stator arm that is on the same axle, and is rotatable as well as can be secured in position using a "key". You just tighten the key until it cannot be moved.
. . .
Quote from: Omega_0 on January 18, 2008, 05:09:20 PM
Now you get even more things to adjust, like various asymmetries and various rotor/stator magnet ratios etc.
The components are simple and same design repeats mostly, there are a few unique things on which you can built up.
Its not a weekend job, it may take years to find the correct combination. All you need to do is start varying each and every parameter and plot a graph for that combination. Some intelligent guesswork should help (or may be a dream like OC's :)LOL)
Best of luck finding the sweet spot.
@ Omega_0
Very nice drawings first of all. They clearly identify the sources of variability, from which anyone can see that a human will have great difficulty finding the sweet spot -- without luck, inspiration, or channeling the spirit of Nikola Tesla. ;D
Computer based control systems are great for collecting data and iteratively finding a solution where a human or a
Group of humans would give up. Sure, it might take a computer 1,000 runs and 5 days, but computers are relentless.
Protocol is important as well. My approach is not to automate the entire system at this time, but rather focus on one component -- the AGW stator -- and let the computer optimize its position. Once an optimal stator postion is obtained, I'd adjust the rotor magnets and see if the stator position remains optimal. Baby steps for me I'm afraid.
Yada
.
Looks like a job for Lego Technic and some stepper motors... :)
I did some testing tonight using the correct sized ring magnet on different diameter rotors and driving the stator magnet with a motor.
What I found was that it is very difficult to get the rotor to lock and spin AGW with a smaller diameter (85mm) and 6 magnets, where the larger diameter 125mm with 8 magnets seemed easier.
I need to do more tests.
Probably really need to use a stepper motor and a strobe light so I can see the interactions better.
What I would like to do is see if driving the stator with a DC motor can achieve fast rotor acceleration - so far its only just about syncing even when powered.
Also I may be able to fine tune the perfect rotor size and stator position.
For the stepper I could probably use a function generator and a counter IC using just 4 outputs.
I have a PIC ICEBREAKER board that has a stepper motor driver, so I could use that too.
Regards
Rob
Quote from: Nicolas Roger on January 17, 2008, 06:48:05 PM
Here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/v/2Dc2xTHYx0o (http://www.youtube.com/v/2Dc2xTHYx0o)
I've posted a feature page here.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:LaFonte:Mark
Let me know if there are any breakthroughs.
I was just over to the other forum.Al has sent OC a new video.I don't know when he will will post it....
Quote from: Lakes on January 18, 2008, 06:16:17 PM
Looks like a job for Lego Technic and some stepper motors... :)
@ Lakes
Are you acquantied with Parallax?
http://parallax.com/ProductInfo/Accessories/MotorControlChart/tabid/599/Default.aspx
Yada ...
.
Quote from: MeggerMan on January 18, 2008, 06:29:55 PM
For the stepper I could probably use a function generator and a counter IC using just 4 outputs.
I have a PIC ICEBREAKER board that has a stepper motor driver, so I could use that too.
Regards
Rob
@ MeggerMan
RE: PIC
ICEBREAKERCould you provide a link to the vendor, please? ;)
What language are you using?
Cheers,
Yada ...
.
@Omega
Sorry to put a down side to really great drawings but how are you counteracting vibrations with that set up?
Magnets will 'try' to go the easiest path in our normal 3 dimensional space.
That brings up another thought about the parameters on the OC-MPMM replication, what about the possible z-axis movement of the stator magnets or the major drive wheel?
Wishing everyone the best, and really sorry to bring up yet more factors, however my 'feeling' is that OU is a question of vibration tuning.
Quote from: Yadaraf on January 18, 2008, 07:04:07 PM
Quote from: Lakes on January 18, 2008, 06:16:17 PM
Looks like a job for Lego Technic and some stepper motors... :)
@ Lakes
Are you acquantied with Parallax?
http://parallax.com/ProductInfo/Accessories/MotorControlChart/tabid/599/Default.aspx
I`m in the Uk, so, I usually use www.maplin.co.uk for electronic and other parts.
Hey, a good way to reduce the number of trials is to use a DOE (design of experiment) which reduces the trials to a manageable amount, this can then be used to obtain a response surface that will yield information on the optimal system conditions for the variables
example http://www.isixsigma.com/library/content/c021021b.asp
Look familiar ?
B.
Ok, its spinning, but how long does it spin for? ;D
Good job Bill. Looks great. My magnets will be here on the 25th.
Hopefully in a couple weeks I'll have some pics like that. ;D
Brad
A still Shot
Bill
Quote from: vipond50 on January 18, 2008, 08:52:32 PM
Look familiar ?
Looks really cool!!
don't forge the judson dampers :)...
Wayne,
We have not given up, we will continue to test and do research.
Butch
@ Butch
You did a good copy but was shocked you fast your team gave up. Al did show some good data on RPM's and this would prove a point. I guess its on the shelf now- sad
Wayne
Where is that new youtube video? The next chapter in the saga...
tapping fingers...
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 18, 2008, 09:09:23 PM
Where is that new youtube video? The next chapter in the saga...
tapping fingers...
Here's an OC quote from the Steorn forum...
" * overconfident
* CommentTime2 hours ago
permalinkquote
I have here a much brighter video. I don't like it, but I'm going to send it to patifier and CLaNZeR. It is Al's response to the petition in this thread.
It'll be avialable there soon (sometime in the next couple hours, I'd say)
You can all judge for yourselves. "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfrLRzJQaIk
wow.
Guys
I built the octo rotor and it is a son of b to get a stator to sync. I put the Hexe back on and it triies real hard to take off and run. No problem to even get the Stators to go into sync. As ecah stator come on line the rotor rotating resistance gets free-er. i am running a prtyy lose setup to cut down on parsitic drag. Notice the black tape around the diameter. When i made the rotor i should have done a closed one. the cut out induce drag, so this is why u see the tape.
More work ahead, but feel that i will be doing with the Hexi rotor.
The spinning Pic is a hand spun up, Sorry i should have stated with the pic.
Regrads
Bill
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 18, 2008, 09:20:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfrLRzJQaIk
wow.
Pretty good ploy, tell me if u had something like that would U pitch in the trash?
I don't think so ::)
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 18, 2008, 09:20:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfrLRzJQaIk
wow.
yeah wow... like WTF?
If someone offered to buy the sole rights to your WhipMag invention -- tested and functional:
What would you sell it for?
A) $1,000,000
B) $10,000,000
C) $100,000,000
D) $1,000,000,000
E) More than $1,000,000,000
F) I would never sell it.
I'd be happy with $100,000,000, even though a working WhipMag is worth much more than that.
I could buy a lot of cool stuff with $100,000,000. :D
.
And just when you though that someone had saved the world.
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 18, 2008, 09:20:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfrLRzJQaIk
wow.
This is some funny stuff.......I can't stop laughing.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfrLRzJQaIk
If you found a beautiful place and built something nice there, very peaceful very quiet and secluded, away from all the hustle of the world. Then, someone plastered it on the internet of how beautiful it really was... all of a sudden you have hundreds of neighbors. So you burn it down and move on.
I doubt he left it in the trash, but I do believe he's tired of all the chatter, harassment and questions....
I'm quite surprised that no one has stumbled on the reason it works. It's possible it's to simple and obvious. Clanzer's machine in video 4 has the answers... Clanzer, you need to go back before you can go forward.
LMResearch
...just and idea
Dan
Finally registered, after reading for a long time.
All I wanted to say is that I seriously doubt that Alsetalocin did intentionally hoax the acceleration.
Please ClaNZeR do continue your excellent, excellent efforts. Same goes for everyone else.
I?m going for a wooden WhipMag. Except for the bearings and magnets ofcourse....
Quote from: Yadaraf on January 18, 2008, 09:45:44 PM
If someone offered to buy the sole rights to your WhipMag invention -- tested and functional:
What would you sell it for?
A) $1,000,000
B) $10,000,000
C) $100,000,000
D) $1,000,000,000
E) More than $1,000,000,000
F) I would never sell it.
I'd be happy with $100,000,000, even though a working WhipMag is worth much more than that.
I could buy a lot of cool stuff with $100,000,000. :D
.
Interesting.
How about 5% transferable royalties on the gross sales for 25 years and a lump sum payment of ? 300.000.000,00 up front?. Ballpark figure what an inventor of a validated OU device could demand.
The Video was sad.....
but he might get back into it after the hype dies down.....or at least i hope so...
Doesnt anyone think it strange that Al was adamant he would not let the toy run unattended and then his very next action was to allow it to run for the 7+ hours.... ??? ... unattended ...
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 18, 2008, 09:20:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfrLRzJQaIk
wow.
Ditto on the "wow."
At least the lighting was much better. ;D
Yada ..
.
Quote from: AquariuZ on January 18, 2008, 11:22:59 PM
Quote from: Yadaraf on January 18, 2008, 09:45:44 PM
If someone offered to buy the sole rights to your WhipMag invention -- tested and functional:
What would you sell it for?
A) $1,000,000
B) $10,000,000
C) $100,000,000
D) $1,000,000,000
E) More than $1,000,000,000
F) I would never sell it.
I'd be happy with $100,000,000, even though a working WhipMag is worth much more than that.
I could buy a lot of cool stuff with $100,000,000. :D
.
Interesting.
How about 5% transferable royalties on the gross sales for 25 years and a lump sum payment of ? 300.000.000,00 up front?. Ballpark figure what an inventor of a validated OU device could demand.
@ AquariuZ
:o
I forgot to mention that the buyer is from BigOil, who has no intention of commercializing the device. They want to keep the device from the public.
Yada ...
.
What was shown was NOT the original
Multiple Difference's in construction.
2 holes in base board securing what?
Groove in base board, apparently in line with rotor.
Rotor mount upgraded. Not original
I know not what
Den
Andrea's device is slightly different, but seems very close to working.
Part 2: -- http://youtube.com/watch?v=jWJwkqjcxdQ
Yada ..
.
.
Quote from: cub3 on January 19, 2008, 01:05:35 AM
2 holes in base board securing what?
button batteries
Well seeing as this huge drama has gone to the garbage, it needed a supporting big budget trailer. So I made this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOEfkESHb0w
;D
ROFL That was great!! :D
Quote from: Nutcake on January 19, 2008, 01:41:38 AM
Quote from: cub3 on January 19, 2008, 01:05:35 AM
2 holes in base board securing what?
button batteries
Looks like 3
But this is NOT where I come from. I, merely mention, that the original conception, is not put into the bin.
An entirely different conception time wise.
Den
In all seriousness, if Al didn't expect what happened then he is an immature idiot. Seriously if one of you here was in his shoes, would you mind answering questions, thinking critically about the device, taking data reading documenting it all. Come on, what kind of a childish mentality must you have to behave the way he has. As far as the comparison to a secluded peaceful place, that comparison is bogus, he started on an open forum, not a private chat, it would be more like going down to the corner standing on a box, and talking, only when people actually standed to listen you got pissed off that they weren't ignoring you and ran away. Very simply get over yourself, and stop being a spoiled brat, this reminds me of when a young woman dresses very scantly, and then complains when people look at her.
But the trailer video was great, very nice work cutting all of that together, I nominate it for an emmy, best original advertisement:)
Quote from: geodan on January 18, 2008, 09:19:59 PM
Here's an OC quote from the Steorn forum...
[...]
I have here a much brighter video. I don't like it, but I'm going to send it to patifier and CLaNZeR. It is Al's response to the petition in this thread.
It'll be avialable there soon (sometime in the next couple hours, I'd say)
You can all judge for yourselves. "
These guys are the closest thing to a schizophrenic team I've ever seen. Paranoid, irrational; yet brilliant underneath. How the two of them could have done as much as they did is quite amazing. Isn't it paradoxical that two guys who have such strong symptoms of being bipoloar should discover a new scientific phenomenon based on unusual magnetic interactions?
Quote from: plasmasd on January 19, 2008, 01:49:38 AM
Well seeing as this huge drama has gone to the garbage, it needed a supporting big budget trailer. So I made this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOEfkESHb0w
Great job plasmasd. Brilliant.
Pretty well sums up the drama of the past few weeks. ;D
.
If it's really an Al video, then it's pretty ridiculous. I agree with the whole standing in the street corner philosphy. What a drama queen. So, he shows the device's bottom and stator magnets like everyone's been asking, but doesn't show the device running ? Al, I was a big fan, big supporter, and, until now, had no doubts about your intentions and discovery. That video is pitiful. So you had time to make that but no time to post one of it running and then showing there were no motors, wires, etc. hooked up to it ? Wow, just wow. I hope none of the replicators give up hope, keep the faith, and of course, change the name from OCAL to just OC. Just my 2 cents, still have faith.
Schoolboy
Quote from: plasmasd on January 19, 2008, 01:49:38 AM
Well seeing as this huge drama has gone to the garbage, it needed a supporting big budget trailer. So I made this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOEfkESHb0w
;D
Totally awesome.
I posted the following item in my news today:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freeenergynews.com%2FDirectory%2FMagneticMotors%2FOC_MPMM%2FMPMM_to_trash_anim_by_SDA_95x95.gif&hash=4995ed2e81a75999447ec072e575a820b7ec46b3)
Trailer: MPMM Tossed in Trash (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor#Trailer) - Professionally rendered spoof dramatizes the MPMM being thrown in the trash. It is based on actual footage of the second video (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor#Throw-Away), made yesterday, of the MPMM magnet motor that has spurred so many people to try to replicate the effect seen in the first video (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor#Original) posted two weeks ago. (PESWiki; Jan. 19, 2008)
This second video by Al, sent to OC, reminds me of this one: http://youtube.com/watch?v=udrIQDl9P4E - Scott Hill's gravity wheel ending in a pile of ashes.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpeswiki.com%2Fimages%2F7%2F72%2FPaddyboytube_Bessler_gravity_motor_design_replica_by_Scott_F_Hall_95x95.jpg&hash=56d61ed6f289b4b68c9409efb29561fd5fd9194b)
Doug's replication of Al's motor is still delayed, but is getting closer to completion.
Quote from: sterlinga on January 19, 2008, 04:03:11 AM
This second video by Al, sent to OC, reminds me of this one: http://youtube.com/watch?v=udrIQDl9P4E - Scott Hill's gravity wheel ending in a pile of ashes.
Now all we need is a good waste-to-energy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iioOVevReOs) machine to revive these trashed prototypes. ::)
I played some more with my HDD converted into a COAL rotor today. It takes some play to get the stator to lock into AGW rotation, but it is possible. Before I have only succeeded with this when I used my finger, but today I tried to start very gentle with the air gun. After some trial and error the wheels locked into AGW position and I could increase the rpm. The wheels lost the grip some times when I was not feeding a steady air flow, but with some more trial, I manage to speed the rotor up to a high speed. I did not use any tacho, so it will only be a guesstimate, but the speed was something like 1000 rpm on the rotor. The wheels were connecting good, and I could keep them at that speed as long as I wanted to, but after 2-3 min I let it run with no air support. Then it would not sustain the speed and both wheels started to slow down still in AGW lock.
In support of the COAL system, I got the feeling that it did not need much air to keep the high speed. But my system got a lot of friction and the stator will run down in just a few seconds if the rotor is stopped.
Svein
In light of recent events I believe a certain lyric requires revision due to new statistical data ...
"Theres a sucker born every minute second ..."
alsetalokin may well have been out of line with the last video, but it's overconfident he has disrespected, the rest of us chose to follow and replicate.
Quote from: RunningBare on January 19, 2008, 05:52:12 AM
alsetalokin may well have been out of line with the last video, but it's overconfident he has disrespected, the rest of us chose to follow and replicate.
I agree with you there RB, rather spiteful thing to send to OC, AL could have at least had the guts to post the video himself to youtube..
Alsetalokin Second Video sent to overconfident 18/01/2008
Will let you all decide the meaning of it.
YouTube link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfrLRzJQaIk
Hi Resolution of above video Link
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/Alsetalokinsecondvideo.wmv
Okay Original Mov all uploaded to
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/Alsetalokinsecondvideo.mov
Also 1908 frames extracted for people that want to analyse stuff.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/AlsetalokinsecondvideoFrames.zip (Warning 60meg)
Atleast I knwow why mine did not work. My Bin is a different colour! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: RunningBare on January 19, 2008, 05:52:12 AM
alsetalokin may well have been out of line with the last video, but it's overconfident he has disrespected, the rest of us chose to follow and replicate.
You're right RB. I don't post over at Steorn but I do read, and OC is the true victim here.
Quote from: plasmasd on January 19, 2008, 01:49:38 AM
Well seeing as this huge drama has gone to the garbage, it needed a supporting big budget trailer. So I made this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOEfkESHb0w
;D
Two thumbs up!
Quote from: CLaNZeRAtleast I knwow why mine did not work.
Why should yours not work ? I recognized an acceleration on your video named CLaNzErSlatch4.mgp or was it only my imagination ?
For a short time you gain a bit kinetic energy with this acceleration...
I think it is only a question of the adjustment !
kind regards
Quote from: Frederic2k1 on January 19, 2008, 08:43:14 AM
Quote from: CLaNZeRAtleast I knwow why mine did not work.
Why should yours not work ? I recognized an acceleration on your video named CLaNzErSlatch4.mgp or was it only my imagination ?
For a short time you gain a bit kinetic energy with this acceleration...
I think it is only a question of the adjustment !
Hi Frederic
Do not worry I am not quiting yet, it was a joke :)
Also people need to know the story and threads over the last couple of days at Steorn forums before they come to a decision on what AL means by this video.
Would of been nice if he put a voice over it and explained that but like everything these days, people never seem to just want to come out and say what they mean hehe .
It is all a bit of fun to me and I have tried to build many a worse idea than this over time ;D
Gonna have a break before I start doing what I planned on here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giR97ydMY2I as not much sleep latley and got too catch up on some Normal Life things.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: Lakes on January 19, 2008, 06:26:52 AM
Quote from: RunningBare on January 19, 2008, 05:52:12 AM
alsetalokin may well have been out of line with the last video, but it's overconfident he has disrespected, the rest of us chose to follow and replicate.
I agree with you there RB, rather spiteful thing to send to OC, AL could have at least had the guts to post the video himself to youtube..
Waddaya know .. no guts and no glory :(
Sad aint it !!
This should be a lesson for everyone. It is a red flag when ever someone wants you to spend your time, money, and energy, but will not use their real name or give an email address or allow you to come to their shop. You are probably dealing with a kid who should be out with a girl on a date, but has chosen to spend time on his computer instead.
The polar ice caps are melting, the Greenland ice sheet is melting, and we get this behavior usually only seen in ten year old children.
Butch LaFonte
Notice: Adults needed for the free energy movement, must use real name and contact information.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 19, 2008, 08:56:38 AM
Quote from: Frederic2k1 on January 19, 2008, 08:43:14 AM
Quote from: CLaNZeRAtleast I knwow why mine did not work.
Why should yours not work ? I recognized an acceleration on your video named CLaNzErSlatch4.mgp or was it only my imagination ?
For a short time you gain a bit kinetic energy with this acceleration...
I think it is only a question of the adjustment !
Hi Frederic
Do not worry I am not quiting yet, it was a joke :)
Also people need to know the story and threads over the last couple of days at Steorn forums before they come to a decision on what AL means by this video.
Would of been nice if he put a voice over it and explained that but like everything these days, people never seem to just want to come out and say what they mean hehe .
It is all a bit of fun to me and I have tried to build many a worse idea than this over time ;D
Gonna have a break before I start doing what I planned on here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giR97ydMY2I as not much sleep latley and got too catch up on some Normal Life things.
Cheers
Sean.
Hi Sean
Glad to here you are not shelving this project. After what i have seen with my rep I will be continuing the work also.
Thanks for posting the vids BTW.
Happy Testing
Bill
Quote from: Butch on January 19, 2008, 11:01:40 AM
Notice: Adults needed for the free energy movement, must use real name and contact information.
Bah, if you require contributors to be willing to damage their professional careers, or leave themselves open to easy persecution by weirdos, then you'll have far fewer contributors.
Quote from: Mr.Entropy on January 19, 2008, 11:48:55 AM
Quote from: Butch on January 19, 2008, 11:01:40 AM
Notice: Adults needed for the free energy movement, must use real name and contact information.
Bah, if you require contributors to be willing to damage their professional careers, or leave themselves open to easy persecution by weirdos, then you'll have far fewer contributors.
Does this guy "Butch" work for Exxon or what? Gimme a break bro!
Quote from: plasmasd on January 19, 2008, 01:49:38 AM
Well seeing as this huge drama has gone to the garbage, it needed a supporting big budget trailer. So I made this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOEfkESHb0w
;D
OH gawwwd! LOL!!! that was geat! I think that we all really need that this morning after the intensity of the last couple of weeks and last nights drama, Thanks for putting that together and sharing!!
There is lot's of background and many many things to consider about this project and the people involved, none of it is black and white, not the device and certainly not the personalities.. I for one am not in any position to judge anyone, least of all Al...
I hope that we have not seen the last of Al and OC, my
guess is that the original device had served it's purpose and was due for some serious re engineering anyway... I hope that we see a "re birth" , consider the story line...
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm going ahead with my plans to build one and tinker with it... I hope that other's do too. what do we really have to loose?? and look at what we're learning along the way...
@Butch, I think that we're all adults here, capable of doing our own thinking and drawing our own conclusions, thanks fo the lecture, but no thanks...in this case "I reject your reality and substitute my own".
Many thanks to everyone that's contributed and worked so hard to bring this project this far. and a special thanks to Overconfident and Alsetalokin for sharing their dreams with us and giving us hope.
Hi all
I am not giving up either, most of my parts should be here on Monday.
I hope their is going to be somebody here to help me?
HT
What is the fascination that so many people have with soiling the potential of something new and good? In reading through posts, one wonders of what else their lives consist? Such an enormous portion of personal time spent online seeking out ideas and people to destroy. If they feel they know for sure that it isn't real - they could simply stop paying attention. Ferreting out the truth may be their stated goal - but their hidden one is the thrill of destroying the person or their idea - any person or idea, it doesn't really matter who or what - it's the potential for anonymous personal destruction which attracts them.
That having been said, the Steorn Forum has become a locus for people who engage in this. Surely Al recognises this. He had to know that anyone sticking their head up there would attract the pack. Considering that - that he would just, you know, take his ball and go home... To give in to them? To let them win? Very disappointing. It's the first thing he's done in all of this that seems to me to lack integrity - and it causes me to wonder, for the first time, whether he played it straight from the beginning.
Of course, that also shows that I'm waaaay too involved, as a bystander, in this drama. I wish the replicators success in duplicating whatever it was that Al ash-canned!
By the way - great video, plasmasd! "With great power comes great responsibility", indeed! I had to watch it several times, I laughed so hard.
@CLaNZeR,
Can you show the readings on your laser tachometer when carrying out the experiments shown here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6QzU9etlmQ
Would be good if you can plot the rpm vs. time.
Also, did you try yet running it with your new addition allowing variable distances between the rotor and the stator?
@CLaNZeR,
Did you observe a similar effect with the original @alsetalokin's 13-station base?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 02:34:31 PM
Can you show the readings on your laser tachometer when carrying out the experiments shown here:
Would be good if you can plot the rpm vs. time.
Like yourself mate I will do when I have got something exciting to report.
At the moment I have a number of different rigs I am swapping stuff between and reporting any weird effects.
The main problem has been that it is very hit and miss to get the latching as others replicating will tell you. One minute it will work like a dream and the next it will be a bitch to get going for a long time. When I get to that stage I remove my stator magnets for 30 mins away from the rotor and pop them back in for testing. Somehow it seems the stators are getting degraded over time or something weird going on.
With my Tacho I leave it on continous logging and it is a nightmare when ya have had to spin the stators alot of time to get them to latch, as you have to trawl through all the crap data as well as the good data to get your readings. I need an assistant I reckon ;D ;D ;D
If I can find a easy way to make it latch everytime then I can start to do some serious logging of the effects and hence what I have been working on.
I have held back on the mm by mm testing until I have a complete clear day, as it is going to be a long boring task LOL
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 02:38:36 PM
@CLaNZeR,
Did you observe a similar effect with the original @alsetalokin's 13-station base?
@Omnibus
You stated you have your rig and that:
I want to report that the initial experiments are very promising. After the initial spin a definite acceleration is observed which so far still cannot be sustained as long as @alsetalonkin's but the effect is definitely there. I will restrain at this point from posting a video or quantitative results which I will present to you later.Could you please report your findings as well mate, we are all in this together and it is good to share :)
Cheers
Sean.
@CLaNZeR,
Same here. I've a very similar experience to yours. Waiting for my tachometer to arrive to get some more definitive picture of what's happening. Wish I had a RS-232 tachometer.
Oops ... postings crossed in the mail ... I think I just replied to that. Wish I had some quantitative results at hand to report.
Qualitatively, it appears that the effect kicks in for a few seconds and then the contraption again goes out of sync to kick in again later for a few seconds as it winds down. This needs to be observed quantitatively, though. One thing is for sure, many times the smooth wind down of a lone rotor (not surrounded by stator magnets) differs substantially from the wind down of the rotor with stator magnets placed at certain positions. Detecting acceleration during these hitches quantitatively will be most significant.
Testing by varying the height and distance of the stator is essential, of course.
Apparantly no one has yet considered changing the angle of the stator axle. Having all the magnets spinning in the same plane almost guarantees no power gain. This one dimensional approach has consistently failed.
Theory:
Al's device "worked" because his stator was accidentally mounted at a slight angle. Optimizing this angle will produce more power than you know what to do with. When you build your computer controled machine to vary the distance and height of the stator, be sure to include rotation in two axis as well. Working with the stator axle always straight up and down limits you to one dimension, when you should be thinking in at least three. Placing the stator at an angle to the rotor changes everything. This is why you see some replications work and others fail. While everyone is trying to be "exact" and keeping the rotor and stator parallel, the only ones that come close to working are the ones with the stator "a little bit off". Make it a little bit more "off" and see what happens.
@DA,
We're trying to be as true to the original as possible. Modifications later. Where did you see that the stator is at an angle with respect to the rotor?
Hi Omni,
Can you please post a picture of your rig ?
Cheers,
Dean
@dean_mcgowan,
Actually there are two rigs made exactly according to the specifications except for the rotor magnets in the second rig which are the recommended rectangular magnets but not the cylindrical magnets as in @alsetalokin's video. Will post it later when I have some quantitative results.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 03:06:24 PM
@DA,
We're trying to be as true to the original as possible. Modifications later. Where did you see that the stator is at an angle with respect to the rotor?
Where did you see that the stator is NOT at an angle?
Quote from: DA on January 19, 2008, 02:59:47 PM
Theory:
Al's device "worked" because his stator was accidentally mounted at a slight angle. Optimizing this angle will produce more power than you know what to do with. When you build your computer controled machine to vary the distance and height of the stator, be sure to include rotation in two axis as well. Working with the stator axle always straight up and down limits you to one dimension, when you should be thinking in at least three. Placing the stator at an angle to the rotor changes everything. This is why you see some replications work and others fail. While everyone is trying to be "exact" and keeping the rotor and stator parallel, the only ones that come close to working are the ones with the stator "a little bit off". Make it a little bit more "off" and see what happens.
Tried the wobbly effect and could not even get a AGW sync.
I messed up a few rotors as the Drill Stand was not secure and the Top hole to bottom hole over a 20mm Distance was 1.5mm out which made hell of a wobbly Rotor ;D ;D
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fwobbly.jpg&hash=9bceb9c59a6a4795ac543820c8816a7532c883d7)
@DA,
Now, that's really a metaphysical exchange. That rotor and stator are parallel is assumed, otherwise it would've been emphasized prominently. It hasn't been. I'd be amazed if anyone but you would insist they are not parallel. On the other hand, you may be right--remember @xpenzif's stator magnets also weren't parallel to the rotor.
Quote from: DA on January 19, 2008, 02:59:47 PM
Testing by varying the height and distance of the stator is essential, of course.
Apparantly no one has yet considered changing the angle of the stator axle. Having all the magnets spinning in the same plane almost guarantees no power gain. This one dimensional approach has consistently failed.
Theory:
Al's device "worked" because his stator was accidentally mounted at a slight angle. Optimizing this angle will produce more power than you know what to do with. When you build your computer controled machine to vary the distance and height of the stator, be sure to include rotation in two axis as well. Working with the stator axle always straight up and down limits you to one dimension, when you should be thinking in at least three. Placing the stator at an angle to the rotor changes everything. This is why you see some replications work and others fail. While everyone is trying to be "exact" and keeping the rotor and stator parallel, the only ones that come close to working are the ones with the stator "a little bit off". Make it a little bit more "off" and see what happens.
@ DA
I'm playing with computer-based automation of stator tuning, but only in X and Z.
Q: Relative to the rotor, should the stator be angled radially, tangentially or both?
Q: Also, at what point in Al's video does the stator appear angled?
Cheers.
Yada ...
.
To All Replicators and Group
Today after reconfiguration of the Stator magnets to a dual bearings I had a approximately. "one minute" self operation of the device and maintained a constant RPM once Stator Sync occurred. Note: What I mean by " Self Operation' is NO outside added input to the device. I added the second bearing to the stator due to instability to each arrangement. The instability induced friction and consequently drug down the rotor speed. Also with the device i am able at any time during spin up to latch any of the three Stators at any given time. In addition this allows me to have any combination of the stators running in synchronization.
My next step is to spend the necessary funds to Source totally all Non magnetic parts i.e. Bearings, Fasteners, Rotor center support shaft, etc. to construct a higher quality device.
I also understand that this is a variant of the original concept, but basic Engineering dictates that this is the next step.
Happy testing and may Your Rotors Rev up ;D
Bill
I think there are 3 clear optimization steps:
1) Finetune the position of the rotor magnets
(I don?t think that all this magnets have exactly the same strength)
or match the magnets out of a bigger batch with a
magnetometer - or use a reference stator with a newtonmeter
attached.
This first goal is to get a symmetrical, smooth rotorfield.
2) Finetune the position of the stator magnets
I think that the stator magnets have slightly different strength.
If you finetune the distance of each statormagnet to
the already adjusted rotor using newtonmeter or measure the
resulting field - you can compensate differents in stator magnets
and achieve symmetrical statorfields.
3) would be to balance rotor and stators in the conventional way.
Even slightly unsymmetry and slightly different strength in the used
material can have a huge difference in the resulting force.
Measuring the force and the field is the key to operation -
then it would make sense to alter the tilt/distance/force of the stator
magnets.
rgds.
Quote from: plasmasd on January 19, 2008, 01:49:38 AM
Well seeing as this huge drama has gone to the garbage, it needed a supporting big budget trailer. So I made this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOEfkESHb0w
;D
Brilliant.
Anyone written a synopsis on the story line yet?
and who wrote the screenplay?
I give it 5 kernels of popcorn.
Quote from: vipond50 on January 19, 2008, 03:57:51 PM... I added the second bearing to the stator due to instability to each arrangement....
Bill
hey Bill,
Any chance of a photo of the new stator bearing arrangemenet?
@vipond50,
What is the wind down time of the rotor in absence of stator magnets and does the wind down time remain the same when the stators are present and the one-minute constant rpm effect is seen?
Quote from: vipond50 on January 19, 2008, 03:57:51 PM
To All Replicators and Group
Today after reconfiguration of the Stator magnets to a dual bearings I had a approximately. "one minute" self operation of the device and maintained a constant RPM once Stator Sync occurred. Note: What I mean by " Self Operation' is NO outside added input to the device. I added the second bearing to the stator due to instability to each arrangement. The instability induced friction and consequently drug down the rotor speed. Also with the device i am able at any time during spin up to latch any of the three Stators at any given time. In addition this allows me to have any combination of the stators running in synchronization.
My next step is to spend the necessary funds to Source totally all Non magnetic parts i.e. Bearings, Fasteners, Rotor center support shaft, etc. to construct a higher quality device.
I also understand that this is a variant of the original concept, but basic Engineering dictates that this is the next step.
Happy testing and may Your Rotors Rev up ;D
Bill
Nice work Bill!!! sustained rotation is a big step!!
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 19, 2008, 04:23:34 PM
Quote from: vipond50 on January 19, 2008, 03:57:51 PM... I added the second bearing to the stator due to instability to each arrangement....
Bill
hey Bill,
Any chance of a photo of the new stator bearing arrangemenet?
Ken
I will get a Picture of the setup and post it today
Bill
New data from Al @ Steorn available here:
http://yirkha.fud.cz/steorn/alsetalokin/Dual%20Trace/
Quote from: fritz on January 19, 2008, 04:03:23 PM
I think there are 3 clear optimization steps:
1) Finetune the position of the rotor magnets
(I don?t think that all this magnets have exactly the same strength)
or match the magnets out of a bigger batch with a
magnetometer - or use a reference stator with a newtonmeter
attached.
This first goal is to get a symmetrical, smooth rotorfield.
2) Finetune the position of the stator magnets
I think that the stator magnets have slightly different strength.
If you finetune the distance of each statormagnet to
the already adjusted rotor using newtonmeter or measure the
resulting field - you can compensate differents in stator magnets
and achieve symmetrical statorfields.
3) would be to balance rotor and stators in the conventional way.
Even slightly unsymmetry and slightly different strength in the used
material can have a huge difference in the resulting force.
Measuring the force and the field is the key to operation -
then it would make sense to alter the tilt/distance/force of the stator
magnets.
rgds.
These are good suggestions. They apply to every magnetic motor contraption studied and, as it was mentioned many times, the discrepancies in the magnetic fields of ostensibly matching in shape magnets is plaguing the field immensely. The hope for this particular contraption (@alsetalokin's) was that these discrepancies will play a lesser role which obviously isn't entirely so.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 04:24:05 PM
@vipond50,
What is the wind down time of the rotor in absence of stator magnets and does the wind down time remain the same when the stators are present and the one-minute constant rpm effect is seen?
Good q's Omni
!. Did not feel the need to checked this, i feel the magnets are part of the fly wheel effect.
2.Q's is this Q relating to have the mags in place ?
3. Please restate your Q ?
Bill
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 19, 2008, 04:26:58 PM
New data from Al @ Steorn available here:
http://yirkha.fud.cz/steorn/alsetalokin/Dual%20Trace/
Translation??
Quote from: Yadaraf on January 19, 2008, 03:27:42 PM
Quote from: DA on January 19, 2008, 02:59:47 PM
Testing by varying the height and distance of the stator is essential, of course.
Apparently no one has yet considered changing the angle of the stator axle. Having all the magnets spinning in the same plane almost guarantees no power gain. This one dimensional approach has consistently failed.
Theory:
Al's device "worked" because his stator was accidentally mounted at a slight angle. Optimizing this angle will produce more power than you know what to do with. When you build your computer controlled machine to vary the distance and height of the stator, be sure to include rotation in two axis as well. Working with the stator axle always straight up and down limits you to one dimension, when you should be thinking in at least three. Placing the stator at an angle to the rotor changes everything. This is why you see some replications work and others fail. While everyone is trying to be "exact" and keeping the rotor and stator parallel, the only ones that come close to working are the ones with the stator "a little bit off". Make it a little bit more "off" and see what happens.
@ DA
I'm playing with computer-based automation of stator tuning, but only in X and Z.
Q: Relative to the rotor, should the stator be angled radially, tangentially or both?
Q: Also, at what point in Al's video does the stator appear angled?
Cheers.
Yada ...
.
By varying the angle both radially and tangentially you can test every conceivable angle. The point is, why limit yourself to only ONE stator shaft oreintation, when there are actually millions of orientations of the stator axle? It may produce power best at 45 degrees, or 90 degrees, or 26.5 degrees. And that is just considering two dimensions, why NOT check all three? Gee whillikers, this IS the 21st century, isn't it?
Al's entire video was at an angle, so I cannot determine if the stator was at an angle or parallel. I am merely proposing a THEORY, because most people seemed to have overlooked the question of whether or not the two axles are parallel, and that "could" be the key.
The original video apparently showed an increase in rpm, correct? No plans were given, it was not stated that the axles WERE or WERE NOT parallel.
Unlikely scenario to consider, but you do have an open mind :
PERHAPS, When the video was taken one stator was installed "crooked", the anomaly was shown, and Al never did notice the stator was "crooked". On the next change, Al got the stator straight, and could never get it to work again. He never did think of installing the stator at a different angle, he just did it once, by accident, a bit of grit got under the washer on one side and the axle was off by 0.23 degrees. This slight angle of the stator, combined with the AGW rotation of the stator, causes an uneven push-pull and accelerates the rotor.
Quote from: fritz on January 19, 2008, 04:03:23 PM
1) Finetune the position of the rotor magnets
(I don?t think that all this magnets have exactly the same strength)
or match the magnets out of a bigger batch with a
magnetometer - or use a reference stator with a newtonmeter
attached.
This first goal is to get a symmetrical, smooth rotorfield.
Even slightly unsymmetry and slightly different strength in the used
material can have a huge difference in the resulting force.
Measuring the force and the field is the key to operation -
then it would make sense to alter the tilt/distance/force of the stator
magnets.
rgds.
@ fritz
Great place to start.
Yada ...
.
Quote from: vipond50 on January 19, 2008, 03:57:51 PM
To All Replicators and Group
Today after reconfiguration of the Stator magnets to a dual bearings I had a approximately. "one minute" self operation of the device and maintained a constant RPM once Stator Sync occurred. Note: What I mean by " Self Operation' is NO outside added input to the device. ...........
Bill
I like the sound of it. Congrats Vipond !
Please post a video and plot of RPM , if possible.
Quote from: geodan on January 19, 2008, 04:36:21 PM
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 19, 2008, 04:26:58 PM
New data from Al @ Steorn available here:
http://yirkha.fud.cz/steorn/alsetalokin/Dual%20Trace/
Translation??
Not from me unfortunately!
A few more photos for the ignorant at least, including another flash frozen view while in operation.
@vipond50,
The rpm vs. time curve (wind down curve) changing form when there are stators, compared to lone rotor (no stators), a change which I also observed qualitatively, if real, is a very significant fact if the wind down times in the two cases are the same, let alone longer for a rotor with stators. As I said, I will study this quantitatively when my tachometer arrives.
I have include a short Video of all three Stators operating in syc.
Need to upgrade this camera, to much time in the field I guess.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tTFdiryJyQ
Regards
Bill
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 04:48:43 PM
@vipond50,
The rpm vs. time curve (wind down curve) changing form when there are stators, compared to lone rotor (no stators), a change which I also observed qualitatively, if real, is a very significant fact if the wind down times in the two cases are the same, let alone longer for a rotor with stators. As I said, I will study this quantitatively when my tachometer arrives.
Omni
The next time i tear down the device i.e. rotor and Stators I will gather this Data for your review
Hope this is ok ?
Regards
Bill
Bill,
This device is different from the original OC concept. Once OC saw this in operation, he felt an equal distribution of stators would be desired, rather than the odd-13 arrangement from his original idea.
Running multi-stators in this un-equal arrangement may be a dead end.
I think the 4-1 ratio (in rpm between the stator and the rotor) has been established, and my thought is that 4-1 will hard to maintain with an un-equal arrangment (ie. stators interacting with the rotor in a way that inhibits the other stators)
It is obviously working for you, but they may be fighting each other.
@vipon50,
Thanks. Hopefully I'll also have some quantitative results then to compare notes.
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 19, 2008, 04:55:39 PM
Bill,
This device is different from the original OC concept. Once OC saw this in operation, he felt an equal distribution of stators would be desired, rather than the odd-13 arrangement from his original idea.
Running multi-stators in this un-equal arrangement may be a dead end.
I think the 4-1 ration has been established, and my thought is that 4-1 will hard to maintain with an un-equal arrangment (ie. stators interacting with the rotor in a way that inhibits the other stators)
It is obviously working for you, but they may be fighting each other.
Good Day Ken
Sorry to be dense on this, so Al changed the 13 count to what ? Sorry
Bill
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 19, 2008, 04:55:39 PM
Bill,
This device is different from the original OC concept. Once OC saw this in operation, he felt an equal distribution of stators would be desired, rather than the odd-13 arrangement from his original idea.
Running multi-stators in this un-equal arrangement may be a dead end.
I think the 4-1 ration has been established, and my thought is that 4-1 will hard to maintain with an un-equal arrangment (ie. stators interacting with the rotor in a way that inhibits the other stators)
It is obviously working for you, but they may be fighting each other.
OC's opinion is utterly unimportant. What we need to know is what @alsetalokin did in his video. Was the base there made for 13 stators or not? I think we all here presume it was the 13-stator base and Jason's drawings reflect that.
Recall, Jason sent him the drawings and he approved of the 13-stator base.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 05:01:03 PM
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 19, 2008, 04:55:39 PM
Bill,
This device is different from the original OC concept. Once OC saw this in operation, he felt an equal distribution of stators would be desired, rather than the odd-13 arrangement from his original idea.
Running multi-stators in this un-equal arrangement may be a dead end.
I think the 4-1 ration has been established, and my thought is that 4-1 will hard to maintain with an un-equal arrangment (ie. stators interacting with the rotor in a way that inhibits the other stators)
It is obviously working for you, but they may be fighting each other.
OC's opinion is utterly unimportant. What we need to know is what @alsetalokin did in his video. Was the base there made for 13 stators or not? I think we all here presume it was the 13-stator base and Jason's drawings reflect that.
Recall, Jason sent him the drawings and he approved of the 13-stator base.
Yep I concur and that what my Dwg's reflect also.
The Video was to show that all three stators can and will operate at any given time. When the device operated this morning" the one minute run" it was with one Stator in sync and the other two were running gear wise.
Thanks
Bill
repost from steorn to my request for a translation...
" *
CommentAuthorDirtfarmer
* CommentTime1 minute ago
permalinkquote
@geodanz...
...Implies an asymmetric field for reasons unknown... The "symettry" traces show the uninterfered waveforms, of rotor and stator, but the dual trace shows quite a different trace for "upspin", and "downspin" (als' parlance...)
Intriguing.
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 05:01:03 PM
OC's opinion is utterly unimportant.
I understand Omnibus, and agree.
QuoteWhat we need to know is what @alsetalokin did in his video. Was the base there made for 13 stators or not? I think we all here presume it was the 13-stator base and Jason's drawings reflect that.
Recall, jason sent him the drawings and he approved of the 13-stator base.
I agree the working device used the 13 stator base.
But I don't think there is any evidence or assumption of it working for more than one stator AGW.
My reasons for thinking equal spacing of the stators would be better when running more than one stator AGW are:
The 4-1 ratio, and the speedup-slowdown operation of the stator, and the pulsing this must induce in the rotor/whole system.
All speculation, and of course reliable reproduction first is more important.
Hi Bill, let's hope you will not disappear and "get rid" of your MPMM when you'll supposedly manage to make it work, like you did with your joe-cell powered car. http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Joe_Cell:Replications:Bill_Williams ...
Quote from: Shirakawa on January 19, 2008, 05:23:24 PM
Hi Bill, let's hope you will not disappear and "get rid" of your MPMM when you'll supposedly manage to make it work, like you did with your joe-cell powered car. http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Joe_Cell:Replications:Bill_Williams ...
QuoteWhat is the fascination that so many people have with soiling the potential of something new and good? In reading through posts, one wonders of what else their lives consist? Such an enormous portion of personal time spent online seeking out ideas and people to destroy. If they feel they know for sure that it isn't real - they could simply stop paying attention. Ferreting out the truth may be their stated goal - but their hidden one is the thrill of destroying the person or their idea - any person or idea, it doesn't really matter who or what - it's the potential for anonymous personal destruction which attracts them.
That having been said, the Steorn Forum has become a locus for people who engage in this. Surely Al recognises this. He had to know that anyone sticking their head up there would attract the pack. Considering that - that he would just, you know, take his ball and go home... To give in to them? To let them win? Very disappointing. It's the first thing he's done in all of this that seems to me to lack integrity - and it causes me to wonder, for the first time, whether he played it straight from the beginning.
Of course, that also shows that I'm waaaay too involved, as a bystander, in this drama. I wish the replicators success in duplicating whatever it was that Al ash-canned!
By the way - great video, plasmasd! "With great power comes great responsibility", indeed! I had to watch it several times, I laughed so hard.
Was looking at the Rotor to Stator ratios and logged these numbers
Hand spin up with one Stator in Sync and the other Two stopped.
Rotor RPM - 667
Stator RPM - 2230
R = 3.348 to 1
Second Attempt
Rotor RPM - 736.3
Stator RPM - 2542
R = 3.4523 to 1
B.
Quote from: g4macdad on January 19, 2008, 05:30:53 PM
Quote from: Shirakawa on January 19, 2008, 05:23:24 PM
Hi Bill, let's hope you will not disappear and "get rid" of your MPMM when you'll supposedly manage to make it work, like you did with your joe-cell powered car. http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Joe_Cell:Replications:Bill_Williams ...
QuoteWhat is the fascination that so many people have with soiling the potential of something new and good? In reading through posts, one wonders of what else their lives consist? Such an enormous portion of personal time spent online seeking out ideas and people to destroy. If they feel they know for sure that it isn't real - they could simply stop paying attention. Ferreting out the truth may be their stated goal - but their hidden one is the thrill of destroying the person or their idea - any person or idea, it doesn't really matter who or what - it's the potential for anonymous personal destruction which attracts them.
That having been said, the Steorn Forum has become a locus for people who engage in this. Surely Al recognises this. He had to know that anyone sticking their head up there would attract the pack. Considering that - that he would just, you know, take his ball and go home... To give in to them? To let them win? Very disappointing. It's the first thing he's done in all of this that seems to me to lack integrity - and it causes me to wonder, for the first time, whether he played it straight from the beginning.
Of course, that also shows that I'm waaaay too involved, as a bystander, in this drama. I wish the replicators success in duplicating whatever it was that Al ash-canned!
By the way - great video, plasmasd! "With great power comes great responsibility", indeed! I had to watch it several times, I laughed so hard.
So here we go again.... huh ?
Must feel good
What have U two done in the past few years other than stir the pot.
Have Fun
Bill
Quote from: vipond50 on January 19, 2008, 05:38:41 PM
Quote from: g4macdad on January 19, 2008, 05:30:53 PM
Quote from: Shirakawa on January 19, 2008, 05:23:24 PM
Hi Bill, let's hope you will not disappear and "get rid" of your MPMM when you'll supposedly manage to make it work, like you did with your joe-cell powered car. http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Joe_Cell:Replications:Bill_Williams ...
QuoteWhat is the fascination that so many people have with soiling the potential of something new and good?Ã, In reading through posts, one wonders of what else their lives consist?Ã, Such an enormous portion of personal time spent online seeking out ideas and people to destroy.Ã, If they feel they know for sure that it isn't real - they could simply stop paying attention.Ã, Ferreting out the truth may be their stated goal - but their hidden one is the thrill of destroying the person or their idea - any person or idea, it doesn't really matter who or what - it's the potential for anonymous personal destruction which attracts them.
That having been said, the Steorn Forum has become a locus for people who engage in this.Ã, Surely Al recognises this.Ã, He had to know that anyone sticking their head up there would attract the pack.Ã, Considering that - that he would just, you know, take his ball and go home...Ã, To give in to them?Ã, To let them win?Ã, Very disappointing.Ã, It's the first thing he's done in all of this that seems to me to lack integrity - and it causes me to wonder, for the first time, whether he played it straight from the beginning.
Of course, that also shows that I'm waaaay too involved, as a bystander, in this drama.Ã, I wish the replicators success in duplicating whatever it was that Al ash-canned!
By the way - great video, plasmasd!Ã, "With great power comes great responsibility", indeed!Ã, I had to watch it several times, I laughed so hard.
So here we go again.... huh ?
Must feel good
What have U two done in the past few years other than stir the pot.
Have Fun
Bill
Why would you say" two"? I am defending people's right to replicate/investigate this concept. I am pointing out these obvious people with an agenda. What would anyone gain by discouraging this? Think about it!
I wish I could join all of the replicators in this effort to reproduce Al's machine, for now all I can do is lurk and maybe offer my 2 cents.
@vipond50
I've been thinking. The so called stators in this device are not really stators at all. They are in reality smaller rotors. If this machine is to self run there must be an imbalance of forces and this imbalance must be sustained. If the machine were built without friction or inertia it wouldn't have a chance of imbalance. By putting the additional bearings on the rotating stators the rotational drag of the stators must have increased creating more of an imbalance thereby improving the performance of the machine.
It is my guess that the ratio of rotor to stator rpm's should be 4 to 1 and that your measurements of this ratio would indicate slippage of the desired AGW lockup.
FWIW
Ray
Hi Bill,
Good to know our bearings work, since we have the identical ones. I agree that this is the first thing we change. Super precision run about $6.00 each. I think perhaps super precision, stainless steel, eh? ;D
Which magnets have you got for the rotor? Have you ordered any N35's?
I would like to see a drawing of how you used two bearings for your stators.
Great job!! ;)
Bruce
Quote from: g4macdad on January 19, 2008, 06:03:49 PM
Quote from: vipond50 on January 19, 2008, 05:38:41 PM
Quote from: g4macdad on January 19, 2008, 05:30:53 PM
Quote from: Shirakawa on January 19, 2008, 05:23:24 PM
Hi Bill, let's hope you will not disappear and "get rid" of your MPMM when you'll supposedly manage to make it work, like you did with your joe-cell powered car. http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Joe_Cell:Replications:Bill_Williams ...
QuoteWhat is the fascination that so many people have with soiling the potential of something new and good? In reading through posts, one wonders of what else their lives consist? Such an enormous portion of personal time spent online seeking out ideas and people to destroy. If they feel they know for sure that it isn't real - they could simply stop paying attention. Ferreting out the truth may be their stated goal - but their hidden one is the thrill of destroying the person or their idea - any person or idea, it doesn't really matter who or what - it's the potential for anonymous personal destruction which attracts them.
That having been said, the Steorn Forum has become a locus for people who engage in this. Surely Al recognises this. He had to know that anyone sticking their head up there would attract the pack. Considering that - that he would just, you know, take his ball and go home... To give in to them? To let them win? Very disappointing. It's the first thing he's done in all of this that seems to me to lack integrity - and it causes me to wonder, for the first time, whether he played it straight from the beginning.
Of course, that also shows that I'm waaaay too involved, as a bystander, in this drama. I wish the replicators success in duplicating whatever it was that Al ash-canned!
By the way - great video, plasmasd! "With great power comes great responsibility", indeed! I had to watch it several times, I laughed so hard.
So here we go again.... huh ?
Must feel good
What have U two done in the past few years other than stir the pot.
Have Fun
Bill
Why would you say" two"? I am defending people's right to replicate/investigate this concept. I am pointing out these obvious people with an agenda. What would anyone gain by discouraging this? Think about it!
Sorry for including U. You did not say a thing wrong.
U know, this is the first project that i have opened up with sense the Joe Cell days. I apologize for my short temper.
Regards
Bill
@ken_nyus,
You may have a point. I've noticed difference in behavior and probably easier appearance of the effect when more than one stators are forced AGW.
Quote from: g4macdad on January 19, 2008, 06:03:49 PM
Why would you say" two"? I am defending people's right to replicate/investigate this concept. I am pointing out these obvious people with an agenda. What would anyone gain by discouraging this? Think about it!
I'm not discouraging anyone, just warning people that while Bill's efforts in replicating the MPMM may be genuine, his claims may be not. If you didn't know, in 2006 he claimed he successfully replicated the Joe Cell (more details here: http://joecellhydra.com/) and managed to install it in his car which had as a result "tremendous power" while consuming absolutely no fuel, just "orgone". Too bad that a few days later, when people were starting to ask for some more proof and details (somebody also wanted to personally see the Joe cell powered truck) some "MiB"s conveniently threatened Bill forcing him to destroy his plans and his replications and disappear from the Yahoo forums where he wrote about his progresses. As of January 20, 2008, nobody has yet managed to show proof of a working cell despite countless replications attempts (and money spent), Sterling Allan can confirm this. Many people are still wasting money on the Joe Cell hoax because of Bill's "successful" replication in 2006.
Now, how can one manage to replicate something that could solve the oil crisis, completely get rid of it, forget about it and then attempting other OU-like replication projects as if nothing happened is beyond my comprehension. Please allow me to have some doubt in what Bill writes in his posts.
Quote from: Shirakawa on January 19, 2008, 06:28:42 PM
Quote from: g4macdad on January 19, 2008, 06:03:49 PM
Why would you say" two"? I am defending people's right to replicate/investigate this concept. I am pointing out these obvious people with an agenda. What would anyone gain by discouraging this? Think about it!
I'm not discouraging anyone, just warning people that while Bill's efforts in replicating the MPMM may be genuine, his claims may be not. If you didn't know, in 2006 he claimed he successfully replicated the Joe Cell (more details here: http://joecellhydra.com/) and managed to install it in his car which had as a result "tremendous power" while consuming absolutely no fuel, just "orgone". Too bad that a few days later, when people were starting to ask for some more proof and details (somebody also wanted to personally see the Joe cell powered truck) some "MiB"s conveniently threatened Bill forcing him to destroy his plans and his replications and disappear from the Yahoo forums where he wrote about his progresses. As of January 20, 2008, nobody has yet managed to show proof of a working cell despite countless replications attempts (and money spent), Sterling Allan can confirm this. Many people are still wasting money on the Joe Cell hoax because of Bill's "successful" replication in 2006.
Now, how can one manage to replicate something that could solve the oil crisis, completely get rid of it, forget about it and then attempting other OU-like replication projects as if nothing happened is beyond my comprehension. Please allow me to have some doubt in what Bill writes in his posts.
Ok, i will quit posting any information to the Group.
I will leave it up to the Group to decide?
Bill
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 06:26:14 PM
@ken_nyus,
You may have a point. I've noticed difference in behavior and probably easier appearance of the effect when more than one stators are forced AGW.
Just to be clear, with equal spacing of rotors?
like at the 1/2 or 1/4 points.
To vipond50
Can you tell me what stator bearing you started out with and what you are using now when you get the three stators to sync.
Also it might be just the camera, but the rotor mag look somewhat different, are they the 1/4 by1/2 round that are in most of the spec i have seen
thanks and keep up the good work
HT
@Shirakawa,
I know nothing about Bill's behavior but many of us here have experienced quite a few instances of various degrees of "disappearances" after a claim was made. At this moment I'm more concerned about the reality of the effect @alsetalokin presented in his video rather than dwell in what Bill or somebody else did or didn't do in the past. Everyone knows that @alsetalokin presented the video only due to my insistence to back up his claims with evidence. Since then we're observing a weirdest behavior on his part which he, although still around, doesn't even perceive as such. I've noted before that from my discussion with him I've observed his only marginal grasp of the subtleties of science. He now demonstrates, in addition, unbecoming behavior a decent technician and engineer, I used to think he is, will never allow himself to stoop to. As many here know, and I've said it repeatedly, I'm approaching the matters of research unassumingly. As the exploration progresses, however, indications of fraudulent behavior don't go unnoticed and if found I, as almost everyone here, will not tolerate them.
Thus, @lasetalokin's is not asked to voice opinions as to whether or not the effect he demonstrates in the video is OU or how this effect can be explained. Instead of pushing what he's not asked and what he's not qualified to utter as an opinion, he should answer the simple question which many people are asking him: is the acceleration seen in his video genuinely due to the working of the motor itself or there is a hidden energy source fraudulently concealed to fool the enthusiasts and punish them for their gullibility? As seen, @alsetalokin is still evading the answer to this simple 'yes' or 'no' question. He thinks he doesn't owe the answer to anyone but he actually does if he wants to preserve his integrity.
Please understand, violation of CoE has already been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt and the engineering efforts to create such motors will succeed sooner or later. On the road to achieving this goal there will certainly be many fraudulent outright fools or elaborate deceivers set to discourage these efforts. The sooner these clowns are exposed the better for the health of this exploration. I really hope this isn't the case here and what we're observing is only due to poor social skills.
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 19, 2008, 06:58:33 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 06:26:14 PM
@ken_nyus,
You may have a point. I've noticed difference in behavior and probably easier appearance of the effect when more than one stators are forced AGW.
Just to be clear, with equal spacing of rotors?
like at the 1/2 or 1/4 points.
Don't quite understand what you're asking. All stators are at 5mm distance form the rotor. Is that an answet to what you asked?
Quote from: Shirakawa on January 19, 2008, 06:28:42 PM
Please allow me to have some doubt in what Bill writes in his posts.
@Shirakawa
You don't need anybody's permission to doubt anything that anybody says or claims.
Cheers all. Hope you find what you think you are looking for.
hey Omnibus, did not you say that you have built a working model and it accelerates. lets see a vid or pic. i am indeed interested to see it
Quote from: rice on January 19, 2008, 07:23:08 PM
hey Omnibus, did not you say that you have built a working model and it accelerates. lets see a vid or pic. i am indeed interested to see it
Go back and read what I've said on the subject.
Hi Bill,
Yes I remember you from the Joe Cell days too and I have no problem with you reporting on your results - in fact I still have 3 joe cells in the garage, I noticed some very odd effects with the tests that I carried out.
Anyway, when you had the 1 minute sustained run, were you able to monitor the RPMs ?
From the video you posted earlier it is very apparent that a hand spin of the rotor soon slows to a stop in 15-20 seconds so a sustained run of 1 minute is a big step forward.
@DA,
I have made your suggestion about angled stators to Al, I too had this idea a few pages back.
@Bruce,
Regarding the N35 magnets, I got Al to measure the vertical repulsion distance between two rotor magnets, 1/4" dia x 1/2" rod and he measured it to be 30.5mm which is about what I got with the ones I ordered from S&J magnetics at 31.5mm, if someone has some N38 or N35 rods they could perhaps do the same test and feed back the results.
Regards
Rob
Quote@alsetalokin is still evading the answer to this simple 'yes' or 'no' question. He thinks he doesn't owe the answer to anyone but he actually does if he wants to preserve his integrity.
"chuckles"
alsetalokin is in a good job, he gets paid well....and more importantly he is an anonymous internet user, I'm sure his integrity where it really matters is fully intact.
Quote from: RunningBare on January 19, 2008, 07:38:39 PM
Quote@alsetalokin is still evading the answer to this simple 'yes' or 'no' question. He thinks he doesn't owe the answer to anyone but he actually does if he wants to preserve his integrity.
"chuckles"
alsetalokin is in a good job, he gets paid well....and more importantly he is an anonymous internet user, I'm sure his integrity where it really matters is fully intact.
Don't be so sure. If he were my employee or a grad student and I knew his current behavior that won't be so and I'm not alone in that.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 06:26:14 PM
@ken_nyus,
You may have a point. I've noticed difference in behavior and probably easier appearance of the effect when more than one stators are forced AGW.
You noticed a difference when you tried stators equally spaced, like at 90 degree intervals or 180 degree?
(rather than the original 27.7 degree intervals)
Or just when you tried more than one?
Overunity is like the search for bigfoot.
Quote from: HyTower on January 19, 2008, 07:06:29 PM
To vipond50
Can you tell me what stator bearing you started out with and what you are using now when you get the three stators to sync.
Also it might be just the camera, but the rotor mag look somewhat different, are they the 1/4 by1/2 round that are in most of the spec i have seen
thanks and keep up the good work
HT
Hi Hydro
Sure Glad to help
1. The Stator bearing is a R3-HA! manufactured by Bearings. This right off the box
2. The two bearings have a small thin washer" will mic " between them and another washer to give clearance off the base plate Will also get a Pic of the assembly layed out.
3. The Rotor mags are 1/4" diameter and 1/4" long N42's. I stacked them up (four) to give the length u see.
Hope this helps
Regards
Bill
I machined a longer adapter to house the bearing
Quote from: leeanderthal on January 19, 2008, 06:07:45 PM
I wish I could join all of the replicators in this effort to reproduce Al's machine, for now all I can do is lurk and maybe offer my 2 cents.
@vipond50
I've been thinking. The so called stators in this device are not really stators at all. They are in reality smaller rotors. If this machine is to self run there must be an imbalance of forces and this imbalance must be sustained. If the machine were built without friction or inertia it wouldn't have a chance of imbalance. By putting the additional bearings on the rotating stators the rotational drag of the stators must have increased creating more of an imbalance thereby improving the performance of the machine.
It is my guess that the ratio of rotor to stator rpm's should be 4 to 1 and that your measurements of this ratio would indicate slippage of the desired AGW lockup.
FWIW
Ray
Hello Ray
Yes i agree, Chaos or in balance is a key point, but Friction or to much of is a killer. There has to an in balance with any magnetic rotating device for it to operate. Constantly seeking magnetic equilibrium.
Regards
Bill
Quote from: geodan on January 19, 2008, 05:10:17 PM
repost from steorn to my request for a translation...
" *
CommentAuthorDirtfarmer
* CommentTime1 minute ago
permalinkquote
@geodanz...
...Implies an asymmetric field for reasons unknown... The "symettry" traces show the uninterfered waveforms, of rotor and stator, but the dual trace shows quite a different trace for "upspin", and "downspin" (als' parlance...)
Intriguing.
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer
http://yirkha.fud.cz/steorn/alsetalokin/Dual%20Trace/
If someone could confirm for me please, these are traces of magnetic polarity?
Magnetic polarity represented vertically, and time horizontally?
Quote from: btentzer on January 19, 2008, 06:10:58 PM
Hi Bill,
Good to know our bearings work, since we have the identical ones. I agree that this is the first thing we change. Super precision run about $6.00 each. I think perhaps super precision, stainless steel, eh? ;D
Which magnets have you got for the rotor? Have you ordered any N35's?
I would like to see a drawing of how you used two bearings for your stators.
Great job!! ;)
Bruce
Hey Bruce
my mags are N42's 1/4" dia X 1/4" long, I stacked them(four) i did this so i could have some adjustably
I will post a stator disassembled for all to see the config.
have U come up with a non magnetic bearing from Mike" Even SS would be better that the all steel ones we are utilizing.
Regards
Bill
@ken_nyus,
Seems that the original positioning with the three stators and two almost opposing stators give better results. Here are some very preliminary results I just obtained for the original 3 stators positioned as in the video. When rotor spun by hand (no AGW attempt) average spin down time of five attempts is around 15s. Same initial spin (~300rpm) with successful AGW of one of the stators (the leftmost from the video), the two other stators held non-spinning, average spin down time for five attempts around 35s. Again, these are just preliminary results.
Spin down time of a lone rotor (no stators) -- about 220s.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 07:43:28 PM
Don't be so sure. If he were my employee or a grad student and I knew his current behavior that won't be so and I'm not alone in that.
His current behavior is his own personal business, so long as he does not connect his employers name to this then his employer has no recourse to discipline him.
As I already said, alsetalokin is an anonymous internet persona, I'd say his real life integrity and job are quite intact would'nt you?
Quote from: MeggerMan on January 19, 2008, 07:32:45 PM
Hi Bill,
Yes I remember you from the Joe Cell days too and I have no problem with you reporting on your results - in fact I still have 3 joe cells in the garage, I noticed some very odd effects with the tests that I carried out.
Anyway, when you had the 1 minute sustained run, were you able to monitor the RPMs ?
From the video you posted earlier it is very apparent that a hand spin of the rotor soon slows to a stop in 15-20 seconds so a sustained run of 1 minute is a big step forward.
@DA,
I have made your suggestion about angled stators to Al, I too had this idea a few pages back.
@Bruce,
Regarding the N35 magnets, I got Al to measure the vertical repulsion distance between two rotor magnets, 1/4" dia x 1/2" rod and he measured it to be 30.5mm which is about what I got with the ones I ordered from S&J magnetics at 31.5mm, if someone has some N38 or N35 rods they could perhaps do the same test and feed back the results.
Regards
Rob
Hi Rob
No Sorry, I did not get a tach reading, I was totally caught off guard this morning after the reassembly. I base this approximation on tach readings with hand spin ups (I don't like guess) the RPM was about 700 to 750.
Sorry for not have my ducks in a row.
Bill
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 19, 2008, 08:11:40 PM
Quote from: geodan on January 19, 2008, 05:10:17 PM
repost from steorn to my request for a translation...
" *
CommentAuthorDirtfarmer
* CommentTime1 minute ago
permalinkquote
@geodanz...
...Implies an asymmetric field for reasons unknown... The "symettry" traces show the uninterfered waveforms, of rotor and stator, but the dual trace shows quite a different trace for "upspin", and "downspin" (als' parlance...)
Intriguing.
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer
http://yirkha.fud.cz/steorn/alsetalokin/Dual%20Trace/
If someone could confirm for me please, these are traces of magnetic polarity?
Magnetic polarity represented vertically, and time horizontally?
That's my assumption Ken... but here's a note worthy repost from the Steorn whip motor chat forum...
"#
*
CommentAuthorDirtfarmer
* CommentTime2 hours ago edited
permalinkquote
Alset,
What reason in your experience would account for the dual trace results... (They may be expected, I don't know...)
http://yirkha.fud.cz/steorn/alsetalokin/Dual%20Trace/
Accel/decel of the stator? (inducing a varying voltage...) but if that is the case, why the same disparity (in quality, not quantity) upspin and downspin? (accel>rotor>decel) (Even this is considerably conjecture, ... I understand...)
On another , quite different note, Is it possible that one of the coils is in reverse polarity by accident?
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer
#
*
CommentAuthoralsetalokin
* CommentTime1 hour ago
permalinkquote
"On another , quite different note, Is it possible that one of the coils is in reverse polarity by accident?"
Oh, I thought that was clear from the picture of the probe coil. Sorry! The scope doesn't have a trace inversion switch.
The two coils are connected in series, with the probe grounds on the "center tap" and the probes themselves on the ends. This can best be seen in "symmetry_p1.jpg".
#
*
CommentAuthoralsetalokin
* CommentTime1 hour ago
permalinkquote
Oh, and I believe that a couple of folks have shown that the stator does accelerate and decelerate on each cycle, like RB predicted and as you have also postulated.
Goodwill yourself, and to yours as well--
--Al
Quote from: RunningBare on January 19, 2008, 08:15:59 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 07:43:28 PM
Don't be so sure. If he were my employee or a grad student and I knew his current behavior that won't be so and I'm not alone in that.
His current behavior is his own personal business, so long as he does not connect his employers name to this then his employer has no recourse to discipline him.
As I already said, alsetalokin is an anonymous internet persona, I'd say his real life integrity and job are quite intact would'nt you?
Not so. Like I said, if he were my employee or my grad student and behaves the way we've seen him behave that won't be just his personal business. Semi-educated know-it-alls, let alone, dishonest people and cowards have no place in science.
@ken_nyus,
Although I'm more interested in the fine structure of the rpm vs. time curves, something I can't study now for lack of tachometer, qualitatively it seems obvious that the three stators spinning GW are a greater hindrance than one spinning GW and two held in place. The easiest (aside from a lone rotor) is the spin of the rotor when one stator spins AGW and the other two are held in place. How much these observations have any novelty in them remains to be seen.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 08:32:50 PM
Quote from: RunningBare on January 19, 2008, 08:15:59 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 07:43:28 PM
Don't be so sure. If he were my employee or a grad student and I knew his current behavior that won't be so and I'm not alone in that.
His current behavior is his own personal business, so long as he does not connect his employers name to this then his employer has no recourse to discipline him.
As I already said, alsetalokin is an anonymous internet persona, I'd say his real life integrity and job are quite intact would'nt you?
Not so. Like I said, if he were my employee or my grad student and behaves the way we've seen him behave that won't be just his personal business. Semi-educated know-it-alls, let alone, dishonest people and cowards have no place in science.
I take it you've never had a spook or a member of the US Defense industry right in your office, now, have you? Had your phone tapped for years at a time? Followed around for weeks and weeks, every day?
I have seen your posts go from the properly defensive, and then to the near downright ignorant.. These last two posts seem to stem from downright ignorance. We are all guilty of it at times. In this case you are now guilty of it.
Quote from: Prophmaji on January 19, 2008, 08:49:26 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 08:32:50 PM
Quote from: RunningBare on January 19, 2008, 08:15:59 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 07:43:28 PM
Don't be so sure. If he were my employee or a grad student and I knew his current behavior that won't be so and I'm not alone in that.
His current behavior is his own personal business, so long as he does not connect his employers name to this then his employer has no recourse to discipline him.
As I already said, alsetalokin is an anonymous internet persona, I'd say his real life integrity and job are quite intact would'nt you?
Not so. Like I said, if he were my employee or my grad student and behaves the way we've seen him behave that won't be just his personal business. Semi-educated know-it-alls, let alone, dishonest people and cowards have no place in science.
I take it you've never had a spook or a member of the US Defense industry right in your office, now, have you? Had your phone tapped for years at a time? Followed around for weeks and weeks, every day?
I have seen your posts go from the properly defensive, and then to the near downright ignorant.. These last two posts seem to stem from downright ignorance. We are all guilty of it at times. In this case you are now guilty of it.
There are ways to protect yourself without jeopardizing your integrity. @alsetalonkin has made almost every effort to damage his.
Omnibus,
You yourself seem a little evasive regarding posting even a simple pic of your rig ... umm why ?
And please dont say quantative something something quantative bla bla bla quantative etc ...
Cheers,
Dean
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 19, 2008, 08:57:49 PM
Omnibus,
You yourself seem a little evasive regarding posting even a simple pic of your rig ... umm why ?
And please dont say quantative something something quantative bla bla bla quantative etc ...
Cheers,
Dean
Keep your opinions to yourself. Quantitative results have their meaning in science and if you don't know that it's your problem.
Here's a few Pic's of the Stator disassambled
The Adapter is made out CPVC 1/2" tubing, what I had on hand, but seems to work very well. I counter bored the ID of the tubing so to accept the two(2) bearings (0.320") and also counter bored the opposite end to accept the 1/2 diameter magnet. The Length of the adapter is 1.00"
Hopes this help
Bill
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 08:59:52 PM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 19, 2008, 08:57:49 PM
Omnibus,
You yourself seem a little evasive regarding posting even a simple pic of your rig ... umm why ?
And please dont say quantative something something quantative bla bla bla quantative etc ...
Cheers,
Dean
Keep your opinions to yourself. Quantitative results have their meaning in science and if you don't know that it's your problem.
It wasn't my opinion it was a quantitative analysis of how many posts you have made stating you have a replication compared to the evidence that you have.
Cheers,
Dean
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 19, 2008, 09:12:59 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 08:59:52 PM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 19, 2008, 08:57:49 PM
Omnibus,
You yourself seem a little evasive regarding posting even a simple pic of your rig ... umm why ?
And please dont say quantative something something quantative bla bla bla quantative etc ...
Cheers,
Dean
Keep your opinions to yourself. Quantitative results have their meaning in science and if you don't know that it's your problem.
It wasn't my opinion it was a quantitative analysis of how many posts you have made stating you have a replication compared to the evidence that you have.
Cheers,
Dean
The crowd goes wild as he scores!!
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 19, 2008, 09:12:59 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 08:59:52 PM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 19, 2008, 08:57:49 PM
Omnibus,
You yourself seem a little evasive regarding posting even a simple pic of your rig ... umm why ?
And please dont say quantative something something quantative bla bla bla quantative etc ...
Cheers,
Dean
Keep your opinions to yourself. Quantitative results have their meaning in science and if you don't know that it's your problem.
It wasn't my opinion it was a quantitative analysis of how many posts you have made stating you have a replication compared to the evidence that you have.
Cheers,
Dean
That's a silly use of the term 'quantitative'.
As for me posting scientific data, I always prefer to post or publish such data when there's something worth publishing, some contribution. Some people enjoy making videos and pics showing every step of the construction and there's nothing bad in that. That's not my style, however.
Quote from: geodan on January 19, 2008, 08:32:36 PM
That's my assumption Ken... but here's a note worthy repost from the Steorn whip motor chat forum...
Thanks Geo, I see thread at Steorn has been started on the subject:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60221&page=1#Item_0
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 19, 2008, 08:57:49 PM
And please dont say quantative something something quantative bla bla bla quantative etc ..
Cheers,
Dean
@Dean
Even when you say
please, you don't always get the answer you may hope for. Not just on this site, but in life in general.
Please keep on posting your opinions. If nothing else they provide a balance of viewpoints and sometimes something to ponder over.
The last I knew, this was a democratic forum. At least Stefan seems to moderate it as such.
I may or may not agree with your or anybody else's opinions, or interpretation of data, but I acknowledge the democratic right of others to state them. For those who vehemently disagree with a statement, they always have the options to respond to, or ignore them, but only Stefan has the right to suppress them. It is his site after all, and so far, I commend him for his obvious diplomacy and democratic approach.
In fact, it seems that Stefan has only removed a post when it contains an undue amount of foul language or persistent and very personal attacks and abuse aimed at other posters. Let's keep it that way.
Cheers from the Toad who Hops
@RunningBare,
You have no restraint, haven't you. If someone's silly you won't allow that. You always need to be sillier and to show that.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 09:19:37 PM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 19, 2008, 09:12:59 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 08:59:52 PM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 19, 2008, 08:57:49 PM
Omnibus,
You yourself seem a little evasive regarding posting even a simple pic of your rig ... umm why ?
And please dont say quantative something something quantative bla bla bla quantative etc ...
Cheers,
Dean
Keep your opinions to yourself. Quantitative results have their meaning in science and if you don't know that it's your problem.
It wasn't my opinion it was a quantitative analysis of how many posts you have made stating you have a replication compared to the evidence that you have.
Cheers,
Dean
That's a silly use of the term 'quantitative'.
As for me posting scientific data, I always prefer to post or publish such data when there's something worth publishing, some contribution. Some people enjoy making videos and pics showing every step of the construction and there's nothing bad in that. That's not my style, however.
Would you guys mind taking that outside?
@ Omni,
I see, I am silly and you are doing scientific research.
I can work with that ...hahahahah
Cheers,
Dean
@omnibus,
and this from the scientist that has brought all of this to us by, unashamedly, provoking alsetalokin to post the video against his wishes. HA! i think al may have had a great mentor, that is very pissed at him at this time! thanks for all that you have done to prove a belief!! it seems to really be working for you.
oh by the way, i hate to violate your since of integrity to the scientific community and all, but since you brought it up, can you show us a video or some pictures of your set up that is accellerating?
lol
sam
Just to add a bit. Many here have noticed how adamantly I'm defending the violation of CoE by SMOT. Because this firm finding is of utmost importance for the field and it's rigorously proven, I'm presenting it at every point of the discussion I find appropriate. I assure you I'll do the same with the results of this replication should they turn out to be of any scientific importance. For now, I've only seen qualitatively promising effects and in order for one to defend them vigorously (as I defend the conclusive analysis for the violation of CoE by SMOT) one has to explore these effects more thoroughly and quantitatively. To show such effects qualitatively, short of an outright acceleration, never mind qualitative, as in @alsetalokin's video, is premature.
Quote from: supersam on January 19, 2008, 09:42:17 PM
@omnibus,
and this from the scientist that has brought all of this to us by, unashamedly, provoking alsetalokin to post the video against his wishes. HA! i think al may have had a great mentor, that is very pissed at him at this time! thanks for all that you have done to prove a belief!! it seems to really be working for you.
oh by the way, i hate to violate your since of integrity to the scientific community and all, but since you brought it up, can you show us a video or some pictures of your set up that is accellerating?
lol
sam
No, I can't. Read above why. As for @alsetalokin showing the video, that was the most natural thing to do having made all these claims. I'd show a video such as this any time and will defend it vigorously, not cowardly agreeing with my enemies accusing me of fraud, as @alsetalonkin did when some poor slob started posting abusive videos on youtube. If I were his mentor I'd really be pissed with him and I'm not alone in that.
@ omnibus,
thanks for the reply before i wrote it. i guess they say "great minds think alike" i can't wait for your hoped for quantatative results. however it would be nice for other replicators of this project if you could at least share any qualitative results in the meantime! or if you could share any preliminary quantatative results good or bad. i can only see positive things from doing this. even if you are not succeeding it may point to an answer for someone else or at least keep someone els from wasting time on an experiment that has no merit.
lol
sam
ps: have you got any video of your setup, or perhaps pictures that you can share with the rest of the replicators, and us early watchers that got here late?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 09:21:23 PM
@RunningBare,
You have no restraint, haven't you. If someone's silly you won't allow that. You always need to be sillier and to show that.
Would you like to see my replication of the OCAL?
Quote from: supersam on January 19, 2008, 09:53:04 PM
@ omnibus,
thanks for the reply before i wrote it. i guess they say "great minds think alike" i can't wait for your hoped for quantatative results. however it would be nice for other replicators of this project if you could at least share any qualitative results in the meantime! or if you could share any preliminary quantatative results good or bad. i can only see positive things from doing this. even if you are not succeeding it may point to an answer for someone else or at least keep someone els from wasting time on an experiment that has no merit.
lol
sam
ps: have you got any video of your setup, or perhaps pictures that you can share with the rest of the replicators, and us early watchers that got here late?
No, I don't have a video yet. I was all prepared but didn't find the reason to video anything. This will happen in time if results worthy of showing emerge. As for some details and even preliminary data, I posted some a page or two back.
Quote from: RunningBare on January 19, 2008, 09:54:03 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 19, 2008, 09:21:23 PM
@RunningBare,
You have no restraint, haven't you. If someone's silly you won't allow that. You always need to be sillier and to show that.
Would you like to see my replication of the OCAL?
If that's your replication: http://youtube.com/watch?v=cBygG9oN9gY no, thanks. We're still under the presumption that @alsetalokin's isn't a fraud.
Children, children, children... and you guys talk about Al's childish video then start a little pissing match all of your own. Come on guys, finish up here and get back to something productive.
Quote from: znel on January 19, 2008, 10:06:42 PM
Children, children, children... and you guys talk about Al's childish video then start a little pissing match all of your own. Come on guys, finish up here and get back to something productive.
znel, My apologies, surely you meant Girls, girls, girls........... all this hair pulling, scratching and bit*h slapping has to stop.
Real MEN would take it outside, as was suggested earlier.
Den
I cant believe I waisted my time reading 20 last posts thinking I will learn something new. I really wish this nonsence stuff would be OUT OF THIS FORUM.
Can we just keep the science here and move on? There are other threads for discussion such as emotionals, non-scientific, waistfull and simple stupid.
Fausto.
@at all,
shuttinup, shuttinup! just keep up the good work.
lol
sam
Quote from: vipond50 on January 19, 2008, 08:13:56 PM
Quote from: btentzer on January 19, 2008, 06:10:58 PM
Hi Bill,
Good to know our bearings work, since we have the identical ones. I agree that this is the first thing we change. Super precision run about $6.00 each. I think perhaps super precision, stainless steel, eh? ;D
Which magnets have you got for the rotor? Have you ordered any N35's?
I would like to see a drawing of how you used two bearings for your stators.
Great job!! ;)
Bruce
Hey Bruce
my mags are N42's 1/4" dia X 1/4" long, I stacked them(four) i did this so i could have some adjustably
I will post a stator disassembled for all to see the config.
have U come up with a non magnetic bearing from Mike" Even SS would be better that the all steel ones we are utilizing.
Regards
Bill
Yes, I definitely agree! Though, I like the results with ours, thus far. I built an ugly dirty model today. I wanted to see how I wanted to connect the rotor, etc. I learned a lot. I used PEX flex .5 ID for stator holders, and used a dremel to grind a bit for a better fit for the magnets. Bearings fit fine.
I drilled my rotor slightly off, so it has a nice wobble (I am just playing until the machined parts arrive next week, using Jason's accurate blueprints! ;) )
I oiled the bearings and they are smooth. I played this evening. I saw it sync and have a sustained run of near 30 seconds, many times. A very cool sight to see. Sore but happy fingers. And this with the ugliest setup on the planet! LOL No pictures or vids, until the real deal is here.
BUT I will say this...From what I have seen tonight, I am confident in the truth of Al's machine. I think that it will be a matter of engineering. I also want to use my N35's for the machined pieces coming.
Bearings, proper distance between stator and rotor (5mm) and proper distance of the plane from top of stator magnet to bottom of rotor magnet plane.
I do not think this "anomaly" is either the material used nor the bearings being steel. I think it is solely the magnetic field interactions. IMHO That said, I plan on even looking into air bearings Monday, if Mike is there. It is a holiday, but I will see. I will post the info when I get a hold of him.
@ All
I am starting a debate thread. If you have a beef with someone, you can take it there, and leave this thread for magnet motor discussion. The fighting is growing old.
Happy days, :D
Bruce
Arranged the rotor magnets just for the heck of it as NSNSNSNSNSNSNSNS and tried it with the three stators in various configs as well as with 2 and 1 stator, raising the rotor several times with washers. Rotor seems a little happier--wind down time close to 30s, stators lose rotation at higher rpm and only tremble. Now, back to the standard arrangement.
I'd like to reemphasize the points @fritz made and my reply there:http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg71709.html#msg71709 Proper form of the magnetic fields is of crucial importance in all these motors. Very hard to achieve. I'm looking now at one of my ostensibly (on the face of it) exact replicas of @alsetalokin's motor. Supposedly, when slowly turning the rotor the pattern one observes when the rotor is let go form a maximum to maximum (one feels these maximums when turning the rotor slowly by hand) should be of the same form repeated four times. Not so in my case. I'm observing the stator equally outstanding from the other two. If I start with a rotor magnet facing that stator the rotor bypasses the next magnet and bumps into the barrier formed by the third one. If I, however, continue and let go the rotor, further clockwise, from that barrier on the rotor stops at the fourth while it should bypass it if the pattern is to be preserved and so on. There's only one other place where the initially described pattern is observed, although slightly different (intermittent accelerations appear different). Now, that may be a significant problem. I've ordered more of these cylindrical magnets and will try to find matching ones to see whether this picture will improve. Of course, the stator magnets should be matching too. Wonder if someone else would be willing to check his rotor in this fashion.
Hi,
This might be very good news.
If my latest FEMM simulation is for real, it might give us the information we need.
It shows how we can get a positive torque for both the rotor and the stator.
Before I get too carried away here, we need to wait with the champagne till this has been triple checked.
It shows that the stator needs to deviate from a constant speed to get a gain. In this simulation this is taken to the extreme where the stator almost stops at the close passing of the rotor magnet, and gets maximum acceleration. As speed picks up the momentum of inertia increase and the torque from the magnets will give less change in speed. This will give less extra torque, and the power gain will be less.
So with a stator with high mass or momentum, it will be more easy to get into AGW locking, but the inertia will soon be too high for further increase in power. With a lighter stator it might be difficult to start, but at higher speed it will still fluctuate and give better torque.
Personally I thought my stator was too light, so I put lead inside it. It helped in getting a more easy AGW lock, but I do not see the OU any more. The first day before I added the lead, I had a gleam of what Al might have felt when his rotor started to spin by itself.
So maybe I will remove the lead and see if I still can get an AGW lock.
Svein
@sveinutne
When looking at my device it appears that all the conditions you found favorable are in place. The stators indeed come to a stop at some points and then accelerate thus deviating from constant speed which should make them get a gain. Also, the weight of the stators is according to the specifications outlined by @alsetalokin. Thus, as I already said, it seems to to me now the focus should be on ensuring proper fields.
@Omnibus
Maybe there is a limit to how much ?OU? you can take out of one stator, and if your system got more friction than that it will never sustain itself.
But to me most of the friction is in the fast turning stator, so the first thing I will do is going for two bearings on the stator to keep it more in place and hopefully reduce the friction.
Svein
@sveinutne,
I was thinking of that too. It seems to me, though, first the fields have to be fixed. Even with smooth bearings and lessened friction wrong fields won't bring success. Mind you, your FEMM is based on idealized field forms.
Quote from: vipond50 on January 19, 2008, 03:57:51 PM
To All Replicators and Group
Today after reconfiguration of the Stator magnets to a dual bearings I had a approximately. "one minute" self operation of the device and maintained a constant RPM once Stator Sync occurred. Note: What I mean by " Self Operation' is NO outside added input to the device. I added the second bearing to the stator due to instability to each arrangement. The instability induced friction and consequently drug down the rotor speed. Also with the device i am able at any time during spin up to latch any of the three Stators at any given time. In addition this allows me to have any combination of the stators running in synchronization.
My next step is to spend the necessary funds to Source totally all Non magnetic parts i.e. Bearings, Fasteners, Rotor center support shaft, etc. to construct a higher quality device.
I also understand that this is a variant of the original concept, but basic Engineering dictates that this is the next step.
Happy testing and may Your Rotors Rev up ;D
Bill
Hi Bill,
This is good news.
I am thinking about using dual bearings on my stator too, to reduce friction.
From your video you got three stators in AGW lock. It is a very impressive achievement. If you replace the bearings on one more stator, it might run by itself. More that just one min. But one minute at constant speed is very good.
Svein
This maybe of interest concerning the whipmag effect
Quote
Valone further mentioned that Alexander Feigel is the first physicist to use ZPE to satisfy energy conservation. Feigel proved that virtual particles can be induced to travel in a preferred direction and transfer momentum, if they are in an electric field of at least 100 kV and a perpendicular magnetic field of 17 Tesla (10 kG), thus proving that the ZPF can cause motion of a dielectric fluid of 50 nm/sec (Feigel, A. 2004. ?Quantum Vacuum Contribution to the Momentum of Dielectric Media,? Physical Review Letters, Vol. 92, p. 020404).
Full article found at http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=2598
Quote from: PolyMatrix on January 20, 2008, 02:55:12 AM
This maybe of interest concerning the whipmag effect
Quote
Valone further mentioned that Alexander Feigel is the first physicist to use ZPE to satisfy energy conservation. Feigel proved that virtual particles can be induced to travel in a preferred direction and transfer momentum, if they are in an electric field of at least 100 kV and a perpendicular magnetic field of 17 Tesla (10 kG), thus proving that the ZPF can cause motion of a dielectric fluid of 50 nm/sec (Feigel, A. 2004. ?Quantum Vacuum Contribution to the Momentum of Dielectric Media,? Physical Review Letters, Vol. 92, p. 020404).
Full article found at http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=2598
This is to be ignored outright. Trying to explain away violation of CoE with virtual particles is travesty of science. Explanation should be sought along the lines presented here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tknwdltnB6s
If you care to work your way carfully through all Tom Valone has said you will find that he is not violating the CoE with this explanation as radiant energy dissipates back into ZPE.
Quote from: PolyMatrix on January 20, 2008, 03:10:39 AM
If you care to work your way carfully through all Tom Valone has said you will find that he is not violating the CoE with this explanation as radiant energy dissipates back into ZPE.
ZPE is a problem in Quantum Mechanics and not something to be celebrated. This isn't the place to discuss that, however.
I think you missed the point of the quote I posted.
Quote from: PolyMatrix on January 20, 2008, 03:18:45 AM
I think you missed the point of the quote I posted.
The point is that violation of CoE proven beyond doubt already and now possibly finding a more practical application in some devices such as that of @alsealokin has nothing to do with ZPE and the problems Quantum Mechanics has. Let's, however, not continue with this. This isn't the place for such discussion. Here we're trying to figure out the technical aspects and the reality of a claim for a motor spinning for 7.5 hours with no energy input, that is, producing energy from nothing.
Quote from: sveinutne on January 20, 2008, 01:02:42 AM
Hi,
This might be very good news.
If my latest FEMM simulation is for real, it might give us the information we need.
It shows how we can get a positive torque for both the rotor and the stator.
Before I get too carried away here, we need to wait with the champagne till this has been triple checked.
NO IT WAS NOT FOR REAL :-[
OK,
When I run 180 degrees as I should in stead of 360. It all went back to normal. No OU:_|
Svein
Moment of Inertia "is us coming up against ZPE" from Tom Valones lecture.
Magnetic gradient gives a force that dependent on distance between two magnets.
We have two spinning discs and a sinusoidal force locking with another sinusoidal force.
To accelerate the discs the moment of inertial must 'harmonise' with the sinusoidal force.
The quote gives a possible quantitative value to help resolve this equation.
hey omni. show us where coe has been violated beyond a reasonable doubt. not in your bulshit words but in practical experiment.
oh yea how about a small vid of your setup. oh thats right you have not built anything and you lie. you say you see acceleraion, i would say that is good reason to make video and help others.
Quote from: rice on January 20, 2008, 03:46:47 AM
hey omni. show us where coe has been violated beyond a reasonable doubt. not in your bulshit words but in practical experiment.
oh yea how about a small vid of your setup. oh thats right you have not built anything and you lie. you say you see acceleraion, i would say that is good reason to make video and help others.
That has already been discussed and it's being discussed in another thread. And, by the way, not beyond reasonable doubt. Violation of CoE has been proven beyond any doubt. As for the video of my experiment read several pages back.
@rice
Your question is off topic and it is normal protocol on the net to first do your own searching before showing yourself to be lazy in thinking and simply believing everything you have ever been taught.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 20, 2008, 12:16:24 AM
Wonder if someone else would be willing to check his rotor in this fashion.
I have some experience building magnet sensors using Philips/NXP:
KMZ10A +/- 0.5kA/m; = +/- 625uT
KMZ10B +/- 2kA/m; = +/- 2.5mT
This stuff is probably way to sensitive - but using it in a metal core as shunt
can give nice sensors.
If somebody is interested, pls. contact me.
Anyway, using a spring gauge to check attract/repell forces is a very easy
way to match the magnets.
Another idea would be a setup to degrade magnets with a strong m field,
checking the field after every degrade cycle to achieve exactly matched magnets.
rgds.
NO IT WAS NOT FOR REAL :-[
OK,
When I run 180 degrees as I should in stead of 360. It all went back to normal. No OU:_|
Svein
[/quote]
I have no capable to use FEMM simulation, so please try to rotate the stator's pole angle degree by degree... see what will happen then
Quote from: SoeN on January 20, 2008, 07:01:00 AM
NO IT WAS NOT FOR REAL :-[
OK,
When I run 180 degrees as I should in stead of 360. It all went back to normal. No OU:_|
Svein
I have no capable to use FEMM simulation well, so please try rotate the stator's pole position degree by degree... see what will happen then
[/quote]
I have used FEMM extensively to do simulations of magnetic motor ideas. You need to remember that the integrations in the software are deliberately set to = 0 so you will never get any energy gain in the software program. But it is a useful tool to get an idea of what the fields are doing.
God Bless,
Jason O
Hi Jdo,
If you have a lot of knowledge in FEMM, you might help me with a new setup.
I am looking at the other approach. If we can get magnets that got a very narrow "beam", so there is no breaking before the two magnets are in line going through the center of the main rotor.
Then the force pushing the stator out will a split of a second later push the rotor around.
Yes the "stator" is changing direction in fig. #4 and #7 = #1.
I would like to simulate this in FEMM, but I am the worst person to draw this in FEMM. On the rotor the magnets need to be placed further apart, so the stator get space to move up and down without hitting the next magnet, so maybe the rotor magnets need to be placed 90Ã,°.
The stator is rotating very fast in #2 and #3, and slow in #5 and #6.
On the rotor I use two different types of magnets. One with a very narrow beam of magnetic field that will not break the rotor speed, only push radial on the stator magnet when they are aligned.
The other set of magnets on the rotor got the magnetic direction turned 90 degrees, so it can absorb the energy when the stator magnet is flipping around very fast. This will be fig #4 where the rotor and stator are moving in the same direction at first, but the stator is moving much faster, so it will buns back in the opposite direction in fig #5. The difficult part will be to build this so the stator magnet will come back at the right moment and hit the rotor magnet at the exact right position. But soon some idea will pop up with the solution to that problem too. What is more urgent will be to model this in FEMM so we can get a verification that this will give increased rotational speed on the rotor
I got some FEMM files that almost will do it, and a lua scrip that will step through it, but I need to modify the ââ,¬Å"statorââ,¬Â and the rotor magnets. If you got an email address I can send it to, then you can look at it and see what you can use.
Svein
The bearings binding at the right time is one way to get deceleration.
Aren't the aluminum dampers another way to get deceleration at the right time?
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 20, 2008, 07:05:01 AM
Quote from: SoeN on January 20, 2008, 07:01:00 AM
NO IT WAS NOT FOR REAL :-[
OK,
When I run 180 degrees as I should in stead of 360. It all went back to normal. No OU:_|
Svein
I have no capable to use FEMM simulation well, so please try rotate the stator's pole position degree by degree... see what will happen then
I have used FEMM extensively to do simulations of magnetic motor ideas. You need to remember that the integrations in the software are deliberately set to = 0 so you will never get any energy gain in the software program. But it is a useful tool to get an idea of what the fields are doing.
God Bless,
Jason O
[/quote]
Jdo300,
I manage to make the FEMM and lua script by myself, so you do not need to spend any time on it.
Svein
@fritz,
Someone earlier proposed a simple way to match magnets by placing them in repelling mode in a transparent tube and measuring the distance between them. He even checked with @alsetalokin what these distances are with his magnets. I tried to find the posting going back in this thread but couldn't find it. Not so easy to find what you're looking for sunk in so much other stuff.
@CLaNZeR, @Butch, @vipond50, @Nicolas Roger and others who have the replica made, could you please check if your rotors shows non-uniformity of pattern as mine does. I already said that here http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg71821.html#msg71821but I'll repeat it.
I'd like to reemphasize the points @fritz made and my reply there:http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg71709.html#msg71709 Proper form of the magnetic fields is of crucial importance in all these motors. Very hard to achieve. I'm looking now at one of my ostensibly (on the face of it) exact replicas of @alsetalokin's motor. Supposedly, when slowly turning the rotor the pattern one observes when the rotor is let go form a maximum to maximum (one feels these maximums when turning the rotor slowly by hand) should be of the same form repeated four times. Not so in my case. I'm observing the stator equally outstanding from the other two. If I start with a rotor magnet facing that stator the rotor bypasses the next magnet and bumps into the barrier formed by the third one. If I, however, continue and let go the rotor, further clockwise, from that barrier on the rotor stops at the fourth while it should bypass it if the pattern is to be preserved and so on. There's only one other place where the initially described pattern is observed, although slightly different (intermittent accelerations appear different). Now, that may be a significant problem. I've ordered more of these cylindrical magnets and will try to find matching ones to see whether this picture will improve. Of course, the stator magnets should be matching too. Wonder if someone else would be willing to check his rotor in this fashion.
@ Omnibus
It was Meggerman that posted about the test, with the two rotor magnets in a clear tube and measuring the distance between the two.
Al did this test, and his rotor magnets showed 30.5mm seperation.
@ Rob
I will do your requested test, when my N35's arrive. I still have a feeling that Al's rotor magnets are not N42's, but weaker. He even states, that he is sure that his stators are stronger than his rotor magnets.
Everyone really needs to experiment using different rotor magnet strengths. This will make the difference between a self sustained run or not. IMHO.
Cheers,
Bruce
@btentzer,
Thanks. That's a simple but important test. It'd be interesting to see @fritz' method too. One really needs to know what the exact form of the concrete field is in a given rendition of, say, Torbay motor. Difficulties in achieving symmetricity of the fields is the main problem in making these motors work as well as the proper ratio of the magnetic induction. The hope is that this particular proposal for a magnet motor solving these issues will be easier.
I think your point about the strength of the rotor vs. stator magnets is very important. In the setup I have with me right now the rotor magnets are stronger than the stator ones which is the opposite of what @alsetalokin had said it should be. I don't know what it is in the other set up which showed promising results because it isn't with me right now.
I'm using magnets with the exact part number recommended. However, as I recall @alsetalokin has assembled his machine with magnets lying around in his lab not knowing what their origin or part number is. I think the recommended part number was his best guess, am I right. We have to clarify this problem very well because having proper magnets is the gist of the effort.
Maybe everyone else should check what the strength of their rotor vs. stator magnets is.
@fritz,
Speaking of simulation with electromagnets, please, take a look at this simulation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tknwdltnB6s
Quote from: vipond50 on January 19, 2008, 04:49:09 PM
I have include a short Video of all three Stators operating in syc.
Need to upgrade this camera, to much time in the field I guess.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tTFdiryJyQ
Regards
Bill
Feature page created here:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:vipond50 (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:vipond50)
Quote from: vipond50 on January 19, 2008, 06:40:27 PM
Ok, i will quit posting any information to the Group.
I will leave it up to the Group to decide?
Bill
Bill, I think you should continue to post your observations. If you were the only one reporting any degree of success, then I think Shirikawa's skepticism would be more founded. But there are several others reporting a degree of success here, beginning with CLaNZeR.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications)
My count is five, holding CLaNZeR's as being foremost in being convincing, showing accelleration, albeit for only a couple of seconds.
That's from what has been reported here at OverUnity on this thread, which is really the only place I've been watching as it seems to be the most comprehensive while being minimal in fighting and rudeness that I found at the Steorn forum (primarily from Al and OC).
Perhaps this will be a good way for you to redeem yourself and show your credibility. I personally still tend to believe that there is something to the Joe Cell phenomenon, and I do not doubt that you had what you claimed to have a couple of years ago. It has been disapointing that others have not been able to replicate this to a point of stability and reproducibility.
Sterling D. Allan
Quote
Bill, I think you should continue to post your observations. If you were the only one reporting any degree of success, then I think Shirikawa's skepticism would be more founded. But there are several others reporting a degree of success here, beginning with CLaNZeR.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications)
My count is five, holding CLaNZeR's as being foremost in being convincing, showing accelleration, albeit for only a couple of seconds.
That's from what has been reported here at OverUnity on this thread, which is really the only place I've been watching as it seems to be the most comprehensive while being minimal in fighting and rudeness that I found at the Steorn forum (primarily from Al and OC).
Perhaps this will be a good way for you to redeem yourself and show your credibility. I personally still tend to believe that there is something to the Joe Cell phenomenon, and I do not doubt that you had what you claimed to have a couple of years ago. It has been disapointing that others have not been able to replicate this to a point of stability and reproducibility.
Sterling D. Allan
The main reason why no one has been able to duplicate anything is because most
(99.9975643%) of the people on the JC groups are more concerned with making
bubbles then actually putting the JC on a car. It's the same silly nonsense and questions
over and over and over again. It's a vicious cycle in the JC groups. Very sad.
Brad
Quote from: sterlinga on January 20, 2008, 01:19:31 PM
My count is five, holding CLaNZeR's as being foremost in being convincing, showing accelleration, albeit for only a couple of seconds.
That's from what has been reported here at OverUnity on this thread, which is really the only place I've been watching
Sterling we now have 6 replicators with their own areas over at my Forums http://www.overunity.org.uk which ou are welcome to join.
The people in there including myself still report outside here as well though. It a job trying to replicate the data everywhere must admit LOL ;D ;D
I did some Tacho wind downs tonight with a single stator and the results are be chewed over by a couple of people in the Steorn forums but also there is a thread started in my forums.
Cheers
Sean.
Has anyone seen this little motor setup?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6530165466308380947
Brad
@btentzer,
I have to correct myself. I'm looking at the invoice now and I see that both my rotor and stator magnets are N42. According to @alsetalokin the rotor magnets have to be weaker than the stator, correct? Then, I've to order same size but weaker ones for the rotor. Any ideas?
Quote from: bhaas on January 20, 2008, 01:46:02 PM
Has anyone seen this little motor setup?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6530165466308380947
Brad
This "motor" is to be ignored.
@btantzer,
I think it's very important to ask @alsetalokin what the exact magnetic induction of his rotor and stator magnets is. It would be good also if he can carry out the test I described above to see whether the same pattern of repulsion from one maximum to another repeats itself four times.
Quote from: bhaas on January 20, 2008, 01:46:02 PM
Has anyone seen this little motor setup?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6530165466308380947
Brad
Go look on the u tube at: "MODIFIED HAMEL SPINNER".
Its my posting of a better David Hamel spinner concept. Been there done that.
Tom
Quote from: Omnibus on January 20, 2008, 02:03:46 PM
This "motor" is to be ignored.
Why is that? I tried to replicate it last year with no success. But that doesn't
mean it can't be done just cause I couldn't do it. Have others tried it?
Is it total BS? Just curious. Would appreciate a reply or PM from someone
who knows more about it. Thanks.
Brad
Quote from: bhaas on January 20, 2008, 02:11:04 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 20, 2008, 02:03:46 PM
This "motor" is to be ignored.
Why is that? I tried to replicate it last year with no success. But that doesn't
mean it can't be done just cause I couldn't do it. Have others tried it?
Is it total BS? Just curious. Would appreciate a reply or PM from someone
who knows more about it. Thanks.
Brad
This can easily be reproduced but isn't the motor we're looking for. There are numerous such experiments. We're looking for a motor which doesn't receive energy from an external source which isn't the case here. Just ignore it. Not interesting.
@fritz,
Is the method you mentioned above capable of providing a quantitative picture of the field around a magnet?
QuoteWhy is that? I tried to replicate it last year with no success. But that doesn't
mean it can't be done just cause I couldn't do it. Have others tried it?
Is it total BS? Just curious. Would appreciate a reply or PM from someone
who knows more about it. Thanks.
I have to question why the rotating magnet is situated on a ball instead of a static bearing arrangement?
I can easily imagine that whilst attempting to maintain the degree of attraction between it and the held magnet, the natural motion of the operators hands in doing so is what sustains rotation as the contact point just off centre from the base of the ball (i.e. reduced radius from axis of rotation) would increase rotation speed of the magnet as it moves around. Alternatively, why not mount the
held magnet in a jig at just sufficient height above the desk, instead of holding it? Would that be so difficult to accomplish?
Not convinced of anything at-all by this, other than a farcical demonstration with far too many manual influences that would induce rotation..
FunkyJive
QuoteFrom Omnibus:
This can easily be reproduced but isn't the motor we're looking for. There are numerous such experiments. We're looking for a motor which doesn't receive energy from an external source which isn't the case here. Just ignore it. Not interesting.
Are you telling me there's another source? IE electricity/electric magnets or? under the table? If the motor works just like it shows in the video with just the ring magnet on a steel
ball with magnets arranged in the PVC pipe, then why wouldn't this be feasible?
IMO if it does spin, then why couldn't it be set atop a hard drive motor and made to turn on that? Then connect the inputs which would be outputs to an LED for proof of concept?
What external energy source are you talking about??? Thanks.
Brad
Quote from: bhaas on January 20, 2008, 02:24:50 PM
Are you telling me there's another source? IE electricity/electric magnets or? under the table? If the motor works just like it shows in the video with just the ring magnet on a steel
ball with magnets arranged in the PVC pipe, then why wouldn't this be feasible?
IMO if it does spin, then why couldn't it be set atop a hard drive motor and made to turn on that? Then connect the inputs which would be outputs to an LED for proof of concept?
What external energy source are you talking about??? Thanks.
Brad
The source is the slight movement in his hand, there is an easy way to prove this, place a magnet on a slippery surface, then hold another magnet in your hand like poles facing each other, try pushing down, see how a small movement in your hand causes the magnet on the surface to shoot out from underneath.
Quote from: FunkyJive on January 20, 2008, 02:21:14 PM
QuoteWhy is that? I tried to replicate it last year with no success. But that doesn't
mean it can't be done just cause I couldn't do it. Have others tried it?
Is it total BS? Just curious. Would appreciate a reply or PM from someone
who knows more about it. Thanks.
I have to question why the rotating magnet is situated on a ball instead of a static bearing arrangement?
I can easily imagine that whilst attempting to maintain the degree of attraction between it and the held magnet, the natural motion of the operators hands in doing so is what sustains rotation as the contact point just off centre from the base of the ball (i.e. reduced radius from axis of rotation) would increase rotation speed of the magnet as it moves around. Alternatively, why not mount the held magnet in a jig at just sufficient height above the desk, instead of holding it? Would that be so difficult to accomplish?
Not convinced of anything at-all by this, other than a farcical demonstration with far to many manual influences that would induce rotation..
FunkyJive
Not difficult to accomplish but it won't turn if mounted on a jig.
Quote from: bhaas on January 20, 2008, 02:24:50 PM
QuoteFrom Omnibus:
This can easily be reproduced but isn't the motor we're looking for. There are numerous such experiments. We're looking for a motor which doesn't receive energy from an external source which isn't the case here. Just ignore it. Not interesting.
Are you telling me there's another source? IE electricity/electric magnets or? under the table? If the motor works just like it shows in the video with just the ring magnet on a steel
ball with magnets arranged in the PVC pipe, then why wouldn't this be feasible?
IMO if it does spin, then why couldn't it be set atop a hard drive motor and made to turn on that? Then connect the inputs which would be outputs to an LED for proof of concept?
What external energy source are you talking about??? Thanks.
Brad
Read @FunkyJive's post.
QuoteFrom: RunningBare
The source is the slight movement in his hand, there is an easy way to prove this, place a magnet on a slippery surface, then hold another magnet in your hand like poles facing each other, try pushing down, see how a small movement in your hand causes the magnet on the surface to shoot out from underneath.
Now that makes sense. So I guess it's safe to assume that if everything was
mounted still, then nothing would happen?
Again, I've wasted many hours. But if there's a will there's a way. Still looking. Thanks.
Brad
Quote from: bhaas on January 20, 2008, 02:11:04 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 20, 2008, 02:03:46 PM
This "motor" is to be ignored.
Why is that? I tried to replicate it last year with no success. But that doesn't
mean it can't be done just cause I couldn't do it. Have others tried it?
Is it total BS? Just curious. Would appreciate a reply or PM from someone
who knows more about it. Thanks.
Brad
Hi Brad
People are not being blunt with you on purpose mate, just this is a old David Hamel example and has been around along time and discussed over and over again.
I tried a few things with it and have my tesating on my links over at my website.
Also you are taking this thread off topic a little.
Do a search for David Hamel on google and you will soon get hooked on his Cones and forget about the Spinner ;D ;D .
Extract from my site:
Okay where does David Hamel and the Hamel Spinner come into this?
Well this guy has been milling around for a few years now and most sites that played with his ideas have not been updated since 1999.
For the full low down on David Hamel and pictures of him with the Hamel Spinner check out http://www.world-famous.com/DavidHamel.html
To save me waffling on about who, what and where. Please check the links below that are all related to the Hamel Spinner:
http://www.usajohnsons.com/cool_energy_stuff/experiments/thamel.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/hamspin.htm
http://www.keelynet.com/gravity/hamag.htm
http://mysite.verizon.net/tomhunter/experime/spinner.htm
http://theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/magneticDev/trovato/ortemus007.htm
http://www.icehouse.net/john1/hamel.html
There are many more web pages and doing a search on www.google.com for hamel spinner should help wet your appetite.
Good luck and have fun.
Cheers
Sean.
Hi Brad,
What you saw demonstrated was a David Hamel spinner device.
You need a very slight hand movement "all the time" to keep the spinner moving. I experimented with this in great detail and have made a pendulum device that works and keeps the spinner magnet rotating. I still am fine tuning my device but as of yet I still have not reached the hands/fingers off stage and see a complete self runner. Presently its a one finger from time to time to keep everything going.
I have it all posted in the HALF BAKED IDEAS listing to keep away skeptical remarks.
Tom
Quote from: Omnibus on January 20, 2008, 02:15:17 PM
@fritz,
Is the method you mentioned above capable of providing a quantitative picture of the field around a magnet?
The mentioned sensors KMZ10A/B have a detector area of about 1 sq mm, and allow
quantitative measuring. They are too sensitive for this application - so you need some
steel cap or measure the field - 30cm appart of the magnet (gives even more precise picture).
One bad behaviour of the sensors is that due to their operation principle - they flip polarity
if you exceed the maximum field strength - but thats so obvious - no problem.
By operating the sensor manually or with x/y/z or polar stage - it should be possible to
get a nice picture of the field, nice stuff.
Maybe there are sensors available with less sensitivity - which better fit to this job.
- will have a look.
rgds.
Quote from: sterlinga on January 20, 2008, 01:19:31 PM
Quote from: vipond50 on January 19, 2008, 06:40:27 PM
Ok, i will quit posting any information to the Group.
I will leave it up to the Group to decide?
Bill
Bill, I think you should continue to post your observations. If you were the only one reporting any degree of success, then I think Shirikawa's skepticism would be more founded. But there are several others reporting a degree of success here, beginning with CLaNZeR.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications)
My count is five, holding CLaNZeR's as being foremost in being convincing, showing accelleration, albeit for only a couple of seconds.
That's from what has been reported here at OverUnity on this thread, which is really the only place I've been watching as it seems to be the most comprehensive while being minimal in fighting and rudeness that I found at the Steorn forum (primarily from Al and OC).
Perhaps this will be a good way for you to redeem yourself and show your credibility. I personally still tend to believe that there is something to the Joe Cell phenomenon, and I do not doubt that you had what you claimed to have a couple of years ago. It has been disapointing that others have not been able to replicate this to a point of stability and reproducibility.
Sterling D. Allan
@ sterlinga
There is another replicator who is not listed at PES:
Andrea Ganora
===========
Part 1: http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=ICLJKshPdCg
Part 2: http://youtube.com/watch?v=jWJwkqjcxdQ
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
@fritz,
I have a gaussmeter and have tried before to attach its sensor to a 3D support (it was a milling machine actually). Not only it was a tedious job (I don't mind doing it) but I don't have the machine itself. Would be nice if I can find a 3D table with micrometric screws but don't know where to look. I was thinking there may be something like a chamber with an array of sensors where you can put the magnet and see at once the distribution. That would be very helpful in all of these efforts to build magnetic motors. Because it's the invisible fields that are at play here and no matter how precise the mechanics of a setup is the incorrect fields ruin everything and one can only rely on a miracle when hoping that blind adjustments may fix the problems.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 20, 2008, 03:23:03 PM
@fritz,
I have a gaussmeter and have tried before to attach its sensor to a 3D support (it was a milling machine actually). Not only it was a tedious job (I don't mind doing it) but I don't have the machine itself. Would be nice if I can find a 3D table with micrometric screws but don't know where to look. I was thinking there may be something like a chamber with an array of sensors where you can put the magnet and see at once the distribution. That would be very helpful in all of these efforts to build magnetic motors. Because it's the invisible fields that are at play here and no matter how precise the mechanics of a setup is the incorrect fields ruin everything and one can only rely on a miracle when hoping that blind adjustments may fix the problems.
To topic before http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/datasheets/KMZ10C_2.pdf - is a nice thing.
I think for matching the rotor - a fixed, sensor with adjustable position is quite enough.
By turnin the rotor (maybe some sync mechanism would be nice then) - you
can look at the scope - this should give a nice picture.
Anyway - I think measuring the resulting forces is from operation point of view the more
direct way.
rgds.
@fritz,
I agree, measuring the actual forces at play is the important thing here. Now we really have to find out what exact magnets were part of @alsetalokin's machine. I think it's crucial for the replication effort. He was saying here and there things, the importance of proper ring magnet-bearing pair (which he only found by trial and error), that the rotor magnets have to be weaker than the stator ones etc. However, he never really gave a specific information about the concrete magnets used. He could've at least measured their induction at the surface and posted these data to really help the replication efforts go in the right direction. Building this machine isn't just lathing and milling parts and putting in some magnets that appear to be the right ones. Jason did a great job drawing the schematics but now another very important step must be undertaken--find out the specific details about the magnets and trying to match them. Like I said, this particular contraption seems to make these adjustments easier compared to some others. Otherwise, the principle all magnetic motors are based on is the same, despite the differences in design.
Quote from: Yadaraf on January 20, 2008, 03:17:11 PM
There is another replicator who is not listed at PES:
Andrea Ganora
===========
Part 1: http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=ICLJKshPdCg
Part 2: http://youtube.com/watch?v=jWJwkqjcxdQ
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I've added it to the replications (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications) page.
I wouldn't include this in the "successful" category yet, though. I still count five who have exhibited some kind of success, either in the form of accelleration or maintenance of speed. I don't know that decreased deceleration speed can be attributed to any possible overunity effect.
Sterling
Quote from: Shirakawa on January 19, 2008, 06:28:42 PM
Quote from: g4macdad on January 19, 2008, 06:03:49 PM
Why would you say" two"? I am defending people's right to replicate/investigate this concept. I am pointing out these obvious people with an agenda. What would anyone gain by discouraging this? Think about it!
I'm not discouraging anyone, just warning people that while Bill's efforts in replicating the MPMM may be genuine, his claims may be not. If you didn't know, in 2006 he claimed he successfully replicated the Joe Cell (more details here: http://joecellhydra.com/) and managed to install it in his car which had as a result "tremendous power" while consuming absolutely no fuel, just "orgone". Too bad that a few days later, when people were starting to ask for some more proof and details (somebody also wanted to personally see the Joe cell powered truck) some "MiB"s conveniently threatened Bill forcing him to destroy his plans and his replications and disappear from the Yahoo forums where he wrote about his progresses. As of January 20, 2008, nobody has yet managed to show proof of a working cell despite countless replications attempts (and money spent), Sterling Allan can confirm this. Many people are still wasting money on the Joe Cell hoax because of Bill's "successful" replication in 2006.
Now, how can one manage to replicate something that could solve the oil crisis, completely get rid of it, forget about it and then attempting other OU-like replication projects as if nothing happened is beyond my comprehension. Please allow me to have some doubt in what Bill writes in his posts.
You can doubt all you want. But let the rest of us make our own assumptions, please.
I noticed that some of the writers here have been talking about acceleration/deceleration of the stators in their MPMM replication. Based on what I've observed and read, I really think people may be on to something by thinking about rotational inertia of the stator(s). The two extremes are illustrated below
High rotational inertia (flywheeling) : Easy to get it to get it to spin AGW in sync with Rotor but with no noteworthy phenomenon present
Low rotational inertia : Difficult to keep spinning AGW with the Rotor, but demonstrating noteworthy phenomenon (sometimes)
I'm very much a newbie here and have enjoyed reading many of your postings (nearly everyone's)
It just seems that the "nimbleness" or the stators is very critical to get it right. It might only work in a narrow range. Since we did see OC's MPMM machine accelerate, I think pursuing the right nimbleness of the stator would more likely bear fruit than playing with different angles. Try what you want (of course), but I think the vein of Gold is towards the matter of rotational inertia. Time will tell.
Additionally, the whole Steorn saga that started more than a year ago probably started when superstrong magnets became readily available and people started playing with them. This kind of strength is almost certainly necessary for the MPMM machines to work. That being the case we may never have been able to make stators that are "nimble" enough to work well until just recently. Otherwise our grandfathers would have made the MPMM decades ago and everything would have been different. :)
I think it may be all about rotational inertia vs. magnetic strength of the stators
Well, theres my $0.02
Keep up the great work everyone.
@CLaNZeR, @Craigy, @vipond50 and everybody else who has the replica of the motor, could you please check what the strength of your rotor magnets is with respect to the strength of the stator magnets? Also, is the movement of the rotor exhibiting a uniform repetitious patterns (four for a full turn) when you turn it by hand?
@ All
From the Steorn Forum.
MeggerMan:
@Al, one question/test for you, if you stack two of the rotor magnets in a plastic tube in repulsion, what is the gap that seperates them?
I know the gap from a N42 1/4"x1/2" rod.
Regards
Rob
Al:
I would really like to know the answer to that one also.
Good test.
Almost exactly 3 cm, maybe a rch more, like 3.05 or so.
Of course, density is unknown.
Meggerman:
Hi Al,
Thanks ... 30.5mm sounds very close to the results for a N42:
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/DSCN5262.jpg
31.5mm by bouncing the magnets and looking at the average.
The tube is Kapton, so its difficult to see through.
Perhaps its N40?
[edit] by adding another 1/4" x 1/4" rod (total = 1/4" dia x 3/4") to the bottom magnet increases this to about 33mm [/edit]
Regards
Rob
Al:
@Rob--maybe, I just don't know. I don't think so though, they certainly don't seem as strong as the 834DIA stators.
(I have highlighted the important points that I see.)
Figure this out and we will have working replications. IMHO.
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: Omnibus on January 20, 2008, 04:21:33 PM
@CLaNZeR, @Craigy, @vipond50 and everybody else who has the replica of the motor, could you please check what the strength of your rotor magnets is with respect to the strength of the stator magnets? Also, is the movement of the rotor exhibiting a uniform repetitious patterns (four for a full turn) when you turn it by hand?
Hello
I did a count by hand a found that the stators rotate four(4) rev's/ one(1) rotation of the rotor. Has there been a standard for determining the magnet gauss? Read about various methods, but no standard that everyone can follow to get accurate results when compared.
Need to develop a procedure for this
Thanks
Bill
@btentzer,
I think that's crucial to know. As I said my rotor magnets are N42 the same as the stator magnets (these were recommended: part#'s D48 and R834DIA). It appears that the D48 cylinder is stronger than it should be. I found this site where they sell weaker (N38) 1/4" x 1/2" cylinder magnets: http://www.engconcepts.net/List_Of_Cylinder_Magnets.asp. See part# CYL0175. Do you have any other suggestions?
Matching of the magnets is another important thing to do but we'll worry about this later. Let's find out first what these darn magnets are.
Quote from: vipond50 on January 20, 2008, 04:36:21 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 20, 2008, 04:21:33 PM
@CLaNZeR, @Craigy, @vipond50 and everybody else who has the replica of the motor, could you please check what the strength of your rotor magnets is with respect to the strength of the stator magnets? Also, is the movement of the rotor exhibiting a uniform repetitious patterns (four for a full turn) when you turn it by hand?
Hello
I did a count by hand a found that the stators rotate four(4) rev's/ one(1) rotation of the rotor. Has there been a standard for determining the magnet gauss? Read about various methods, but no standard that everyone can follow to get accurate results when compared.
Need to develop a procedure for this
Thanks
Bill
Please try the following--adjust by hand the rotor at one of the larger maximums and let it go. It should skip the next rotor magnet and will bump into the maximum formed by the third. That's the pattern that should be repeated. See if it is indeed repeated four times per full turn.
As for the procedure of measuring just place the probe on the face of the magnet pole and compare the readings with what you'd get by placing the same probe on the same place on the face of a pole of another magnet. That's very rough estimate but will give you some idea.
Concerning Sacred Geometry and the WhipMag
OC's original design called for 13 stator magnets. AL's device consisted of 8 rotor magnets and 3 stator magnets.
Using Sacred Geometry as a reference, a better system might be achieved using the following:
8 rotor magnets + 5 stator magnets = 13 TOTAL magnets
I contacted an expert in sacred "systems," and he provided an "8-5-13" inference in the link below.
http://www.neweaglesforum.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=news&action=display&thread=1192185297&page=40#1200827437 (http://www.neweaglesforum.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=news&action=display&thread=1192185297&page=40#1200827437)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi101.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm60%2FMarciaMcD_2006%2F13gon.jpg&hash=134d14f32f1c6dfd8df30271ed20af1afed605ad)
Cheers,
Yada ...
.
Hi all,
To test the strength of two magnets you can make a tube from flexible plastic wrapped around the rod magnets.
Then hold the tube veritcal and measure the repulsion distance.
Al confirms this distance for the stator magnets to be 30.5mm
My N42 magnets repel a distance of 31.5mm
You could do the same with the rotor magnets, except you need to tape the ring into its own tube then slide this into another tube.
Effectivly making the ring into a rod with the poles facing straight down the tube.
Someone asked about the IceBreaker board, I bought it from Magenta 2000 in the UK.
http://www.magenta2000.co.uk/kits/900.htm
The stepper motor circuit is just a set of 4 transistors coming off the PIC chip I/O pins, I think I have the circuit diagram somewhere.
Interesting comments about the stator inertia, maybe we need to fine tune how much flywheeling there is.
The only way to reduce the inertia would be to use smaller bearings, like these:
http://www.technobots.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Miniature_Ball_Bearings_384.html
I was thinking that two bearings, one either side of the magnet and use a brass shaft turned to fit the stator centre and the bearing centres.
Two smaller bearings should help reduce the friction as I suspect one bearing on its own with suffer a lot of twisting forces.
Shame I do not have a lathe.....Sean, I'm stuck.....
Test showing rotor magnets in repulsion, "sorry about the poor lighting". ;)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2FDSCN5262.jpg&hash=afbfad71bb57a642a2bce6ec034b20eb726dfd85)
Regards
Rob
@MeggerMan,
For now I think we should stay with the bearings proposed by @alsetalokin. Don't think the problem is in them. The magnets, the fields they produce, finding magnets with matching fields, knowing what the mutual strength between rotor and stator is etc. these are the main problems, not the mechanical construction, I think.
Quote from: btentzer on January 20, 2008, 04:28:15 PM
@ All
From the Steorn Forum.
MeggerMan:
@Al, one question/test for you, if you stack two of the rotor magnets in a plastic tube in repulsion, what is the gap that seperates them?
I know the gap from a N42 1/4"x1/2" rod.
Regards
Rob
Al:
I would really like to know the answer to that one also.
Good test.
Almost exactly 3 cm, maybe a rch more, like 3.05 or so.
Of course, density is unknown.
Meggerman:
Hi Al,
Thanks ... 30.5mm sounds very close to the results for a N42:
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/DSCN5262.jpg
31.5mm by bouncing the magnets and looking at the average.
The tube is Kapton, so its difficult to see through.
Perhaps its N40?
[edit] by adding another 1/4" x 1/4" rod (total = 1/4" dia x 3/4") to the bottom magnet increases this to about 33mm [/edit]
Regards
Rob
Al:
@Rob--maybe, I just don't know. I don't think so though, they certainly don't seem as strong as the 834DIA stators.
(I have highlighted the important points that I see.)
Figure this out and we will have working replications. IMHO.
Cheers,
Bruce
Seems liek the ones me and clanzer have then
@Craigy,
So, your rotor magnets seem stronger than what's needed for the motor to spin. Mine are also stronger in the setup I have now with me. The other setup isn't with me right now and don't know what's there in terms of magnet strength--anyway the rotor magnets are rectangular there and I think they are also N42. Can you check what you stator magnets are compared to the rotor ones?
Just ordered N38 1/4" x 1/2" cylinder magnets. We'll see if that'll improve the performance. If you know where to get even weaker ones would appreciate letting me know.
Hi Omni,
I hear what you are saying and yes we should go with what Al is using, but we need to be sure that bearings we are using are very similar magnetic wise. From some of the tests I have done, the proximity of the stator magnet to the bearing causes a huge amount of friction. It was just a suggested test.
So I wonder if Al has stumbled upon some stainless steel bearing made from high quality low magnetic SS.
I think we need to get him to perform another test for us.
Test1:
With the rotor removed from the baseplate, using a single rotor magnet, measure how far away from stator you need to be to be able the move the stator magnet using repulsion force. With a heavily magnetic bearing I expect this distance to be very small because of the large amount of friction.
From the ease with which Al seems to be able to spin the stators I suspect he has some very non-magnetic
bearings.
Test2:
Using a piece of plastic tube slide the magnet and bearing onto it and measure the maximum gap before the bearing falls off from its own weight overcoming the attraction force.
Test2 is probably better than Test1, I will see what he says, its a test we can all do then to compare our bearings magnetic wise and friction wise.
[Edit] Hey Craigy, get those magnets straight, that sloppy angle will give you bad results...;) [/edit]
Regards
Rob
someone mentioned making an mu washer , and putting it between the bearing and magnet which seems an easy test to do. Mu can be found in hard disk drives
I am buiding stators the same way as ClaNZers rotors , i.e with magnet on a brass axle, and the axle held at either end by bearings, the 20mm separation from the magnet to each bearing i hope will improve performance and inhibit braking , we shall see.
Edit: well it came out slopply in the photo , lol..
@MeggerMan,
I can?t agree more. Getting him to perform another test is crucial. What I did is I got bearings with the exact part number suggested. We have to double check that. He was saying that not all ring magnet-bearing pairs work but that was somehow in passing and I remained with the impression that he?s found it out just by trial and error. We have to be more scientific about that, though and find out what really is the issues with these bearings.
The proposed tests are good, especially the second one. Also, if we know the part number of the bearings one would think that they are uniformly manufactured and the discrepancies from bearing to bearing wouldn?t matter. That remains to be seen, though, by performing the test. The issue here is that we don?t want bearings which are entirely unaffected by the magnetic field, we want the exact bearing he was using with the extent of attraction and interaction necessary for the motor to spin.
@MeggerMan,
We also need to know what the gap is between the stator ring magnet and a rotor cylindrical magnet set in repulsion. Maybe the rotor magnet should be placed in a clear tube set on top of the ring. We'll have to see what @alsetalonkin's gap is and compare it to ours. That's in addition to other tests.
Maybe we should discuss and agree upon a very simple protocol for these several tests and then approach @alsetalokin with an asking to perform them.
We're presuming magnets of the same type have the same mass, of course. This should also be checked (I don't expect crucial variations that would invalidate the clear-tube field strength test).
Quote from: foxpup on January 20, 2008, 04:08:48 PM
I noticed that some of the writers here have been talking about acceleration/deceleration of the stators in their MPMM replication. Based on what I've observed and read, I really think people may be on to something by thinking about rotational inertia of the stator(s). The two extremes are illustrated below
High rotational inertia (flywheeling) : Easy to get it to get it to spin AGW in sync with Rotor but with no noteworthy phenomenon present
Low rotational inertia : Difficult to keep spinning AGW with the Rotor, but demonstrating noteworthy phenomenon (sometimes)
I'm very much a newbie here and have enjoyed reading many of your postings (nearly everyone's)
It just seems that the "nimbleness" or the stators is very critical to get it right. It might only work in a narrow range. Since we did see OC's MPMM machine accelerate, I think pursuing the right nimbleness of the stator would more likely bear fruit than playing with different angles. Try what you want (of course), but I think the vein of Gold is towards the matter of rotational inertia. Time will tell.
Additionally, the whole Steorn saga that started more than a year ago probably started when superstrong magnets became readily available and people started playing with them. This kind of strength is almost certainly necessary for the MPMM machines to work. That being the case we may never have been able to make stators that are "nimble" enough to work well until just recently. Otherwise our grandfathers would have made the MPMM decades ago and everything would have been different. :)
I think it may be all about rotational inertia vs. magnetic strength of the stators
Well, theres my $0.02
Keep up the great work everyone.
Finally... but that is only part of it... keep thinking ! Sometimes we tend to complicate simple issues...
LMR
@Omni,
OK all 3 tests posted on the Steorn forum:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=35#Item_45
Lets hope he does them.
Do we know the bearing part numbers that Al used then?
Regards
Rob
@MeggerMan,
The stator magnets recommended (the one's I also bought) have part number R3.
EDIT: My bad. the stator bearings recommended have part number R3. Sorry about that.
Were you guys able to find stator bearings the same size as Al's?
ID 0.1875, OD 0.5, and 0.125 thick?
That seems to be a hard exact size to find.
Also are these bearings with shields and lubrication/grease inside, or no grease, no shields (you can see the balls) and free running?
interesting stuff from Al here...
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=36
re post...
*
CommentAuthoralsetalokin
* CommentTime11 minutes ago
permalinkquote
"Test1:
With the rotor removed from the baseplate, using a single rotor magnet, measure how far away from stator you need to be to be able the move the stator magnet using repulsion force. With a heavily magnetic bearing I expect this distance to be very small because of the large amount of friction.
From the ease with which you seem to be able to spin the stators I suspect you have some very non-magnetic bearings."
The bearings are very ferromagnetic, but they seem not to lock up as I would have expected, maybe due to the diametric magnetization of the outer race and the free-spinning of the balls and the inner race.
The answer to the test question is about 10.5 cm.
"Test2:
Using a piece of plastic tube slide the magnet and bearing onto it and measure the maximum gap before the bearing falls off from its own weight overcoming the attraction force."
I don't want to do this test right now, as the only bearings I have of this type are mounted with magnets, and I don't want to disassemble any of them, for what should be obvious reasons.
"Test3:
Using a tube that the rotor magnet can fit in, measure the repulsion distance between like pole of the stator ring magnet. Setup should look like and exclamation mark!"
The answer here seems to be, magnet in holder with bearing, about 3.5 or 3.7 cm. A bare magnet gives roughly the same, maybe, strangely, a few millimeters less. I don't really have a good tube here, the tube I'm using might have some drag.
Quote from: geodan on January 20, 2008, 07:06:47 PM
re post...
*
CommentAuthoralsetalokin
* CommentTime11 minutes ago
permalinkquote
"Test1:
With the rotor removed from the baseplate, using a single rotor magnet, measure how far away from stator you need to be to be able the move the stator magnet using repulsion force. With a heavily magnetic bearing I expect this distance to be very small because of the large amount of friction.
From the ease with which you seem to be able to spin the stators I suspect you have some very non-magnetic bearings."
The bearings are very ferromagnetic, but they seem not to lock up as I would have expected, maybe due to the diametric magnetization of the outer race and the free-spinning of the balls and the inner race.
The answer to the test question is about 10.5 cm.
"Test2:
Using a piece of plastic tube slide the magnet and bearing onto it and measure the maximum gap before the bearing falls off from its own weight overcoming the attraction force."
I don't want to do this test right now, as the only bearings I have of this type are mounted with magnets, and I don't want to disassemble any of them, for what should be obvious reasons.
"Test3:
Using a tube that the rotor magnet can fit in, measure the repulsion distance between like pole of the stator ring magnet. Setup should look like and exclamation mark!"
The answer here seems to be, magnet in holder with bearing, about 3.5 or 3.7 cm. A bare magnet gives roughly the same, maybe, strangely, a few millimeters less. I don't really have a good tube here, the tube I'm using might have some drag.
Thanks Al. Now time for real progress. Omnibus, I have ordered N35's and will test with those. Let's each replicator test the same as Al and report their findings, and see if we can find a match for the rotor magnets.
Cheers,
Bruce
@btentzer,
Where did you order there N35 from?
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 20, 2008, 06:50:25 PM
Were you guys able to find stator bearings the same size as Al's?
ID 0.1875, OD 0.5, and 0.125 thick?
That seems to be a hard exact size to find.
Also are these bearings with shields and lubrication/grease inside, or no grease, no shields (you can see the balls) and free running?
The part number of these bearings is R3. I made an error above calling them bearing magnets. Sorry about that. Those with no lubrication inside and shields are faster although there's a certain wobble due to the balls. The wobbling is there with the shield as well. I don't think this is an issue.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 20, 2008, 08:35:57 PM
@btentzer,
Where did you order there N35 from?
I am out of town on my laptop, not my home computer with the info. But it was the company in Washington, that Blue_ posted the link too. He posted two links, but this fellow called me back and had great customer service. The were $1.05 each, plus shipping. Same size as what we want, 1/4" by 1/2".
I ordered 10. They will be here this week. I already have my N42's on my play model. I am also staying with single bearing stator's but upgrading to double precision (two steps up from what Bill, Jason, Hank and I, now have.) I will test with both.
You or someone here can go back and search the two links from blue, or wait till I arrive home tomorrow evening and I will happily post it for you.
Cheers,
Bruce
@btentzer,
Thanks. Will wait. I've already ordered N38 but won't hurt to have these N35's as well.
Another thing I'm finding to be quite important is the fixing of the rotor magnets in the grooves. Slight disparities seem to make a great difference in the behavior of the rotor. I'm reluctant to glue them because that won't make easy to exchange them. Had them press fitted into the grooves after sticking a piece of duck tape to them. I'm finding out now that isn't precise enough positioning..How do you fix them in place into the grooves?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 20, 2008, 08:58:49 PM
@btentzer,
Thanks. Will wait. I've already ordered N38 but won't hurt to have these N35's as well.
Another thing I'm finding to be quite important is the fixing of the rotor magnets in the grooves. Slight disparities seem to make a great difference in the behavior of the rotor. I'm reluctant to glue them because that won't make easy to exchange them. Had them press fitted into the grooves after sticking a piece of duck tape to them. I'm finding out now that isn't precise enough positioning..How do you fix them in place into the grooves?
In our professionally machined rotors, they will be press fitted. In my rough and dirty toy, I simply placed some electrical tape over each opening to hold them in place.
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: Omnibus on January 20, 2008, 08:58:49 PM
@btentzer,
Thanks. Will wait. I've already ordered N38 but won't hurt to have these N35's as well.
Another thing I'm finding to be quite important is the fixing of the rotor magnets in the grooves. Slight disparities seem to make a great difference in the behavior of the rotor. I'm reluctant to glue them because that won't make easy to exchange them. Had them press fitted into the grooves after sticking a piece of duck tape to them. I'm finding out now that isn't precise enough positioning..How do you fix them in place into the grooves?
Hi Omnibus,
A quick and easy way to secure them would be with hot glue. You can just heat it up to get the mags out.
God Bless,
Jason O
I`m just wondering if the Neo`s were heated would this be a way to weaken them slightly?
yes it would,but it would be far too hard to get them at the same strength plus they are toxic when heated...
Hold them in with Wax.
Funny, I'm using my business cards placed sideways and then press fit the magnets into the groove. Then I cut the unused part of the card with a razor blade. Seems to work for now.
OK, I'm seeing a slight change in the patterns of the rotor I was mentioning above when turning it slowly by hand. Other than that, this particular setup doesn't show anything unusual at the speeds induced by hand. I can make the stator lock AGW but that doesn't help the usual deceleration. The other setup I saw signs of effect with isn't with me now. Will try to do something with it probably by the end of next week. Will see. I'm, however, more interested in this one because it's an exact copy of @alsetalokin's save the proper magnets. Hope the ones I ordered will be closer to what's needed and will try them as soon as they arrive.
Thanks everyone for the help.
@CLaNZeR,
That's an excellent idea to arrange sending your rig to @alsetalokin for him to see if he can get it to work. Once it's sent back to you working you can help everybody else to set up his or hers properly constructed.
Wow did Al actually consent to that?? Awesome :)
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 21, 2008, 01:13:13 AM
Wow did Al actually consent to that?? Awesome :)
Not sure. Someone proposed that and I found it a good idea. Wonder what @CLaNZeR thinks about it.
@Omnibus
Another idea I had was to turn the rotor with stators mounted
with an rpm controlled motor.
Using a stroboscope(which some capability to sync it with the rotor)
you can analyze the angle of the statormagnets vs. rotormagnets
at different rpm..... instead of static forces - you can see dynamic
effects caused by misbalance in magnetic or mechanical ways.
The shift between rotor and statormagnets @certain rpm is
an interesting parameter.
rgds.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 21, 2008, 01:16:41 AM
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 21, 2008, 01:13:13 AM
Wow did Al actually consent to that?? Awesome :)
Not sure. Someone proposed that and I found it a good idea. Wonder what @CLaNZeR thinks about it.
someone just threw that out to CLaNZeR..., Neither Al nor CLaNZeR bit ... good idea but dead for now...
Quote from: Omnibus on January 20, 2008, 10:58:16 PM
@CLaNZeR,
That's an excellent idea to arrange sending your rig to @alsetalokin for him to see if he can get it to work. Once it's sent back to you working you can help everybody else to set up his or hers properly constructed.
Yeah send it via cleanaway mail services .. just pop it in your bin he's sure to get it :D
Or maybe Omnibus can pretend to send it for you :P
Al seems OK with responding to my tests, perhaps its because I'm a builder, with photos to backup my research and not an armchair merchant that rants on endlessly about the hopelessness of OU, conduct of others or how it should be best done...Ooops, I think I just hoisted myself on my own petard. :-[
I'm trying to figure out a way where by I can get Al to monitor the stator's dynamic rotation during a sync, because the stator has a low inertia it may not be spinning uniformly and like someone else has mentioned, it could be doing "teacup and saucer" or "waltzer" type rotation, like you see at the fairground.
One way involves the use of some electronics and somekind of optical encoder, for example the wheel encoder from a mouse, but I would need to make this up and send it to him as it would be unfair to expect him to make it himself.
May be able to do it using a scope to read the input off the IR diode.
What I would expect to see is compression and expansion of the pulse train.
Even a sound card could be used, now that would be a low tech way of capturing the data.
Also, I may redo my motor driven stator to have the ability to move in relation to the motor so the two are not fixed, a sort of lightweight spring drive.
The thing I was thinking was posting him parts to test on his rig.
Regards
Rob
Unless Al were to use a PO Box, I think the possibility of sending Al anything would be remote, as he prizes his anonymity above all else.
Hope this might be of help
I used my sound card and constructed a transducer consisting of a ferrite core and around 20 turns of copper wire, the measurement is taken approximately 1 inch from the stator while I maintained AGW lock by spinning the rotor manually.
What your seeing is 2 cycles of the stator.
http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/stator2cycles.jpg (http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/stator2cycles.jpg)
!
!
! O []
!
!
Exclamations represent rotor edge.
"O" represents stator
[] represents transducer
And here is a 28 second audio sample
http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/statorwave.rar (http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/statorwave.rar)
Quote from: MeggerMan on January 21, 2008, 08:16:14 AM
A
I'm trying to figure out a way where by I can get Al to monitor the stator's dynamic rotation during a sync, because the stator has a low inertia it may not be spinning uniformly and like someone else has mentioned, it could be doing "teacup and saucer" or "waltzer" type rotation, like you see at the fairground.
One way involves the use of some electronics and somekind of optical encoder, for example the wheel encoder from a mouse, but I would need to make this up and send it to him as it would be unfair to expect him to make it himself.
May be able to do it using a scope to read the input off the IR diode.
What I would expect to see is compression and expansion of the pulse train.
Even a sound card could be used, now that would be a low tech way of capturing the data.
Also, I may redo my motor driven stator to have the ability to move in relation to the motor so the two are not fixed, a sort of lightweight spring drive.
If you can come up with a 'low tech way' I would be really interested so I could get some useful data from my setup. Still waiting on my laser tach but it only got shipped Friday so it will be another couple of days :'( . I do have a Radio Shaft down the street and a computer so if you can come up with something using those I think it would be very helpful to all the replicators.
Quote from: RunningBare on January 21, 2008, 09:52:18 AM
Hope this might be of help
I used my sound card and constructed a transducer consisting of a ferrite core and around 20 turns of copper wire, the measurement is taken approximately 1 inch from the stator while I maintained AGW lock by spinning the rotor manually.
What your seeing is 2 cycles of the stator.
http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/stator2cycles.jpg (http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/stator2cycles.jpg)
!
!
! O []
!
!
Exclamations represent rotor edge.
"O" represents stator
[] represents transducer
And here is a 28 second audio sample
http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/statorwave.rar (http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/statorwave.rar)
Wow.. that is a cool solution. Interesting graph. It would appear that the field is not symmetrical or the spin is not symmetrical. humm.. Could it be so simple as to glue a chunk of paper clip to the stator to warp the field ? I have wondered how symmetrical Al's stators magnets are. Could it be that they are not perfectly diamagnetically formed and that the field is slightly tilted from the axis ? I think someone else suggested tilting the stator magnet. Guess it is something else I will try tonight with my setup.
Good morning, All,
Last night, at about 2am, I realized a simple test, based on Al's video, to determine if our rotor magnets are close to matching Al's.
If you recall, in Al's video, after he sync's the one stator AGW, soon after, he stops, by hand the other two stators. Okay, now, if you watch the two stopped stators, when Al removes his hands, they DO NOT start to respin on their own.
TEST:
My test is this, to all replicators. Spin up your rotor by hand, and then manually stop the two identical stators, with your hand, and then let go. Does your stopped stator's begin to respin?? If yes, the rotor magnets are stronger than Al's!! :o
Please post your results and magnet strength of rotor magnets.
Cheers,
Bruce
EDIT:
I have already done this test, on my "toy". And they did not like being stopped, at all, and immediatly began to respin!!
@btentzer,
Same here. Mine didn't like to be stopped either. Both stator and rotor magnets are N42. Need to replace the rotor magnets with N35.
@btentzer
Good thinking.
May I point out that the rotors spin at low speed but not at high speed.
Speculation: the high speed of the magnetic field passing the rotors is too quick to overcome the moment of inertia in the stopped rotors. Sorry I have a bad habit of stating the obvious.
@btentzer,
I was just gonna say that.@PolyMatrix beat me to it. Try spinning the rotor at higher speeds and see what happens. As I said, if I spin the rotor the way @alsetalokin does, the stators don't like to be stopped. However, if I spin it much faster, and remember he holds the two stators after the rotor has accelerated, my two stators remain at rest, only slightly trembling.
Just to mention this. In the other rig which I don't have with me now but where I saw the unusual behavior during the wind down the rotor was spun at much higher rpm--1200, something I can't achieve presently. The rotor there is with the recommended rectangular magnets. These effects which I think @CLaNZeR observed as well are important to be studied further but here we're looking for self-sustaining run. Therefore, it's important to replicate the machine exactly as in the video.
What amazes me is that one would expect a motor such as this to be a self-starter if real. That's why, as you know, I dismissed it out of hand initially. If the acceleration we see in the video is confirmed it would probably mean that some additional effects, aside from the expected electrodynamic ones, emerge when the magnets are in motion with respect to each other than when they are at rest.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 21, 2008, 11:32:27 AM
...if I spin it much faster, and remember he holds the two stators after the rotor has accelerated, my two stators remain at rest, only slightly trembling.
@Omnibus,
Did you also notice the following:
Quote from: Rosphere on January 15, 2008, 07:35:44 AM
...The stators just sat there, with one exception; the 'black-half in-facing' stator does not move, while the 'white-half in-facing' stator slowly rolls over 180 degrees and stops to present its black-half towards the rotor, making two 'black-half in-facing' stators. The rotor is balanced magnetically, what is causing this bias?...
@CLaNZeR,
I got to thinking today, while revising the opening review at PESWiki (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor).
If I were you, seeing how you've had such a hard time getting the spec magnets to work, I'd go back to your interim set-up as shown at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZPI5BwccsA and try to optimize that set-up.
Go with what works.
- - - -
@All,
I've created a shortcut url for the PESWiki OC MPMM open source project home page: http://www.OC-MPMM.com
Quote from: Rosphere on January 21, 2008, 12:22:16 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 21, 2008, 11:32:27 AM
...if I spin it much faster, and remember he holds the two stators after the rotor has accelerated, my two stators remain at rest, only slightly trembling.
@Omnibus,
Did you also notice the following:
Quote from: Rosphere on January 15, 2008, 07:35:44 AM
...The stators just sat there, with one exception; the 'black-half in-facing' stator does not move, while the 'white-half in-facing' stator slowly rolls over 180 degrees and stops to present its black-half towards the rotor, making two 'black-half in-facing' stators. The rotor is balanced magnetically, what is causing this bias?...
Yes, I do. Very interesting. The stators aren't even trembling as mine do (although my rpm are lower). Hard to reproduce it though. Have to spin it at constant 1200rpm. Do you think that would be a criterion for the correct rotor to stator magnet induction ratio?
Busy day as usual this end.
Have posted First New Tacho results and movie link so you can see the latching occur.
http://overunity.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=71.0
Sorry cannot be bothered to type it all again LOL
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Ftachomount.jpg&hash=c12e1e96af659e59281a63c482f7de8ae98a2f8d)
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: sterlinga on January 21, 2008, 12:57:22 PM
@CLaNZeR,
I got to thinking today, while revising the opening review at PESWiki (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor).
If I were you, seeing how you've had such a hard time getting the spec magnets to work, I'd go back to your interim set-up as shown at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZPI5BwccsA and try to optimize that set-up.
I think that was a weight issue with the stator magnets even though they were weaker field as such. I have found by adding weight to the correct stators I am now seeing spikes when latching and also can get it too latch very easly.
Will drop back to those Stator magnets and do some tests though.
Cheers
Sean.
@CLaNZeR,
Are the stator magnets of your motor of the same strength as the rotor ones?
Quote from: btentzer on January 21, 2008, 10:57:50 AM
If you recall, in Al's video, after he sync's the one stator AGW, soon after, he stops, by hand the other two stators. Okay, now, if you watch the two stopped stators, when Al removes his hands, they DO NOT start to respin on their own.
Hi Bruce
Cannot remember which Video now , but in one of them I demonstrate that the magnets loose interaction at certain RPM's and as the Rotor slows down again they start to interact. I think at about 800 RPM the AGW actually lost it as well.
This shows that AL's Rotor was definatley speeding up in his video for this to happen.
How it was speeding up is another question LOL
Cheers
Sean.
It doesn't seem that the latching (setting the unique stator to spin AGW). Something else is getting in the way, the improper field strength ratio, the improper form of the fields etc.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 21, 2008, 01:21:56 PM
@CLaNZeR,
Are the stator magnets of your motor of the same strength as the rotor ones?
Craigy sent them to me, I think he sussed out what N ratiing they were in this thread somewhere.
Quote from: btentzer on January 21, 2008, 10:57:50 AM
Good morning, All,
Last night, at about 2am, I realized a simple test, based on Al's video, to determine if our rotor magnets are close to matching Al's.
If you recall, in Al's video, after he sync's the one stator AGW, soon after, he stops, by hand the other two stators. Okay, now, if you watch the two stopped stators, when Al removes his hands, they DO NOT start to respin on their own.
TEST:
My test is this, to all replicators. Spin up your rotor by hand, and then manually stop the two identical stators, with your hand, and then let go. Does your stopped stator's begin to respin?? If yes, the rotor magnets are stronger than Al's!! :o
Please post your results and magnet strength of rotor magnets.
Cheers,
Bruce
EDIT:
I have already done this test, on my "toy". And they did not like being stopped, at all, and immediatly began to respin!!
Hi Bruce
Just did your little test. I have two 1/4" long N42 mags/ slot.
The other two Stators that are stopped just set there and wiggle back and forth very so slightly while the one Stator is in sync.
Regards
Bill
BTW- after re-looking at the Pic's and working them with AutoCad i thinks the Rotor Dimensions need to be reviewed.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 21, 2008, 01:16:41 AM
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 21, 2008, 01:13:13 AM
Wow did Al actually consent to that?? Awesome :)
Not sure. Someone proposed that and I found it a good idea. Wonder what @CLaNZeR thinks about it.
Na AL got his own, he not having mine LOL ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 21, 2008, 01:24:11 PM
Quote from: btentzer on January 21, 2008, 10:57:50 AM
If you recall, in Al's video, after he sync's the one stator AGW, soon after, he stops, by hand the other two stators. Okay, now, if you watch the two stopped stators, when Al removes his hands, they DO NOT start to respin on their own.
Hi Bruce
Cannot remember which Video now , but in one of them I demonstrate that the magnets loose interaction at certain RPM's and as the Rotor slows down again they start to interact. I think at about 800 RPM the AGW actually lost it as well.
This shows that AL's Rotor was definatley speeding up in his video for this to happen.
How it was speeding up is another question LOL
Cheers
Sean.
I've observed a similar effect with the rig that has the recommended rectangular magnets. Like I said, I'll study that later. I think what's important now is to figure out the self-sustainment with the replicas of the original.
Quote from: RunningBare on January 21, 2008, 09:52:18 AM
Hope this might be of help
I used my sound card and constructed a transducer consisting of a ferrite core and around 20 turns of copper wire, the measurement is taken approximately 1 inch from the stator while I maintained AGW lock by spinning the rotor manually.
What your seeing is 2 cycles of the stator.
http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/stator2cycles.jpg (http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/stator2cycles.jpg)
!
!
! O []
!
!
Exclamations represent rotor edge.
"O" represents stator
[] represents transducer
And here is a 28 second audio sample
http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/statorwave.rar (http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/statorwave.rar)
Hi Running Bare,
In your 28 second audio sample - did you manually accelerate the rotor during the sample capture? The reason I ask is that, in the middle of the run, there is a slight acceleration of the stator that occurs.
Blue Energy
Quote from: blue_energy on January 21, 2008, 02:15:26 PM
Hi Running Bare,
In your 28 second audio sample - did you manually accelerate the rotor during the sample capture? The reason I ask is that, in the middle of the run, there is a slight acceleration of the stator that occurs.
Blue Energy
I used my hand to keep the rotor spinning, so yes you will notice variations in speed and acceleration, presently I'm trying to figure out a way to attach a small motor I have to the rotor
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 21, 2008, 01:19:05 PM
Busy day as usual this end.
Have posted First New Tacho results and movie link so you can see the latching occur.
http://overunity.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=71.0
Sorry cannot be bothered to type it all again LOL
Cheers
Sean.
What is the spike at about 400 rpm?
DA
Thought: For it to keep going at top speed the stator 'push' should match the fricitional slowing of the main wheel. So it would latch, push, skip(s), latch, push, etc.
Because at different speeds and considering the friction and moment of inertia, there will be either magnetic drag or magnetic push. At the chaos point exactly mid point of the bar magnet the smallest of movements increases the speed of the stator magnet. It now becomes a question of timing between when the next bar magnet meets up with the stator and by how much the angular momentum is slowed by the onrushing bar magnet.
The key has to be the ratio of weight and magnetic strength.
Sorry just fascinated and thinking at keyboard.
@PolyMatrix,
Not a bad rumination. It appears that for the given rotor weight (most of us are trying to build very close replicas of the original) the most important factor is the ratio between the rotor and stator field strength as well as the proper form of the fields.
Quote from: RunningBare on January 21, 2008, 09:52:18 AM
Hope this might be of help
I used my sound card and constructed a transducer consisting of a ferrite core and around 20 turns of copper wire, the measurement is taken approximately 1 inch from the stator while I maintained AGW lock by spinning the rotor manually.
What your seeing is 2 cycles of the stator.
http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/stator2cycles.jpg (http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/stator2cycles.jpg)
!
!
! O []
!
!
Exclamations represent rotor edge.
"O" represents stator
[] represents transducer
And here is a 28 second audio sample
http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/statorwave.rar (http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/statorwave.rar)
Hey RB,
Al's scope readings show a pretty symmetrical curve, almost a saw-wave.
Are you measuring something different?
I have very little idea on how to interpret properly either measurement, but why do they not agree?
Here are the magnetic induction values in kgauss of my current cylindrical rotor magnets measured at the same place on the surface of each magnet:
4.64 -4.54
4.68 -4.50
4.60 -4.48
4.70 -4.48
4.50 -4.45
4.70 -4.57
4.67 -4.58
4.66 -4.44
Can't measure the stator magnets because it's hard to get them out of their encasements. Wonder what @alsetalokin's data from the same measurement might be. Also, it's interesting if someone else could post such data.
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 21, 2008, 03:26:33 PM
Hey RB,
Al's scope readings show a pretty symmetrical curve, almost a saw-wave.
Are you measuring something different?
I have very little idea on how to interpret properly either measurement, but why do they not agree?
It is the stator I'm measuring, at the distance I was measuring and the reduced sensitivity, the coil could not detect the rotor magnets, also I was able to listen while spinning up.
Keep in mind I'm using a zinger for the stator, its quite likely these cheaply made magnets do not have a uniform field
But I do have to say that a triangular wave form is the last thing I expected to see from a diametrically magnetized cylinder.
Early stator reading from Al...
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fsnoc3.jpg&hash=57c0a075719bfbc7e9f3d8f8402e934ab4726e5a)
Later dual coil reading of stator was called symmetry_t1.JPG, can't find that link right now.
[edit to try and attach the image]
hi @ all
sorry, i?m new in this technology, but very intrested in it...
haw many replications does running in this time?
i saw many videos in youtube and co...
are there "plans" for this kind of "motor"?
thanks a lot,
robert
@Robert:
http://www.ospmm.org/whipmag/pdf/OC_motor_011708.pdf
@All,
I've been thinking, you know the sink science experiment showing that beyond a certain rotor (water driven neodymium magnets) speed the ball bearing (stator) reverses direction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqEd3KHuEHU
So could it be that Al's stator is the ball bearing reversing direction, in this case syncing.
So in effect the rotor is kicked onwards and likewise the stator is propelled ever faster in AGW rotation.
Someone has probably already suggested this as an idea anyway.
Hmmm, two rotors, one above the other, one with neo magnets fixed to the rotor poles facing up and a second rotor with ball bearings fitted to stiff springs allowing a small to and fro movement.
Regards
Rob
Quote from: Omnibus on January 21, 2008, 01:05:38 PM...Do you think that would be a criterion for the correct rotor to stator magnet induction ratio?
@Omnibus,
I think that this 'GW-stator lock' we are discussing here is a factor of many things. If I were to order these things in descending influence they might be: rotor speed, stator rotational inertia, relative magnet strengths, distance between magnets, and stator bearing friction. Did I miss anything?
What I find most curious was the one stator that slowly rolled over 180 degrees to match the polarity of the other stator facing the rotor. Why should the magnetically balanced rotor favor only one face of the locked GW-stators?
Perhaps the rotor magnets were not as balanced as we assume?
@ Bill,
What do you mean about the stator's being of the wrong size? Can you give more detail, please. ;)
@ All
I ordered from Mike, three high precision bearings for testing, for the stators. He is pricing non magnetic bearings for us, and I will post it.
I want to test with both bearing and with N35's and N42's. I will post some pictures, when everything has arrived.
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 21, 2008, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: RunningBare on January 21, 2008, 09:52:18 AM
Hope this might be of help
I used my sound card and constructed a transducer consisting of a ferrite core and around 20 turns of copper wire, the measurement is taken approximately 1 inch from the stator while I maintained AGW lock by spinning the rotor manually.
What your seeing is 2 cycles of the stator.
http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/stator2cycles.jpg (http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/stator2cycles.jpg)
!
!
! O []
!
!
Exclamations represent rotor edge.
"O" represents stator
[] represents transducer
And here is a 28 second audio sample
http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/statorwave.rar (http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/statorwave.rar)
Hey RB,
Al's scope readings show a pretty symmetrical curve, almost a saw-wave.
Are you measuring something different?
I have very little idea on how to interpret properly either measurement, but why do they not agree?
Check this out, Ken. This is a visual representation of a couple of seconds of the contents of statorwave.wav (located in that rar file):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23061056@N04/2210107679/
As you can see, it's basically a saw wave.
@all replicators
have you guys had any more success?
or are you guys still waiting on the correct mags?
if you've had any success a short video would be nice :)
Quote from: Rosphere on January 21, 2008, 05:52:43 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 21, 2008, 01:05:38 PM...Do you think that would be a criterion for the correct rotor to stator magnet induction ratio?
@Omnibus,
I think that this 'GW-stator lock' we are discussing here is a factor of many things. If I were to order these things in descending influence they might be: rotor speed, stator rotational inertia, relative magnet strengths, distance between magnets, and stator bearing friction. Did I miss anything?
What I find most curious was the one stator that slowly rolled over 180 degrees to match the polarity of the other stator facing the rotor. Why should the magnetically balanced rotor favor only one face of the locked GW-stators?
Perhaps the rotor magnets were not as balanced as we assume?
You know, that seeking of the same pole by the two stators when they are let go again after being stopped is interesting but I don't know how reproducible that is. Unfortunately, I can't sustain a constant high rpm but when spinning the rotor by hand as fast as I can (not slightly, the way @alsealokin does it in the video) I've observed various behavior of the discussed two stators. I've seen them behave as in the video as well as having one spin again while the other at rest and vice versa. Therefore, I'm not sure what criterion that behavior of the two like stators might be.
I got a question,
In Al's video on youtube, it looks to me that the counter spinning stator is not exactly 120 degrees with respect to the other two. It almost looks like it is slightly closer to the stator magnet on the right than it is the left - maybe by 10 to 20 degrees. Has anyone else noticed that?
Quote from: btentzer on January 21, 2008, 07:22:50 PM
@ Bill,
What do you mean about the stator's being of the wrong size? Can you give more detail, please. ;)
@ All
I ordered from Mike, three high precision bearings for testing, for the stators. He is pricing non magnetic bearings for us, and I will post it.
I want to test with both bearing and with N35's and N42's. I will post some pictures, when everything has arrived.
Cheers,
Bruce
HI Bruce
I am in the process of machining a new Rotor to what my measuring with AC indicates. I do know that if the rotor magnets are not at the correct radius there will be No Joy. If the New Mag's work out as i hope then I will post them to the Group. I do not want anyone to work this until I see it for myself. No point in the others spending there funding on some thing that may not function. I have found this out that latching will and can occur even though the magnet radius is incorrect.
Will update what happens after testing.
Happy Testing
Bill
OK, for all the wannabe replicators (like me) out there, I just got pricing back from Small Parts Mfg. (Portland OR) for machining components as pe Jason's drawings... the prices look way too high to me until you get up to a quantity of 25 or so... I think that the first order of business might be to just see if there is enough interest to get prices down...
You can contact me and I can keep a list of people (forum names are fine) and what they want...
If we get enough interest to get decent pricing then we would each contact SPM directly and make our own financial and shipping arrangements, We would use our forum names to insure that we get the volume price. (BTW, I'm not making anything on this, I'll be paying same group price as everyone else...)
(If anyone can get us a better deal please post it here.!)
Please feel free to contact SPM directly with any questions... I'll be happy to keep track of who wants what...
I gave them Jason's drawings and they came up with this configuration... I'm sure that we can correct the quantitie etc...)
Package Price includes the following:
1pc HDPE rotor disc, 1 pc acrylic base plate,
1 pc derlin stator holder 6 pc aluminum dampers,
6 pcs 4-40 screws x1/2.
(I gave them Jason's drawings, Not sure how they came up with this combination of parts)
quantity price (USD)
1 - 750
2 - 595
5 - 450
10 - 295
25 - 150
50 - 99
I asked SPM to itemize, in case people wanted just some parts but not all etc... this was the reply...
"The simplest way for me to break this down for you is by percentages...
I will honor piece prices as a percentage of the Original PRICE and QTY quoted on VQ772 as follows...
Rotor 45% Qty 1 ( 750 x .45 = 337.50 Ea ) Qty 5 ( 450 x .45 = 202.50 Ea ) For Example
Base 40% Qty 2 ( 595 x .40 = 238.00 Ea ) Qty 10 ( 295 x .40 = 118.00 Ea ) For Example
Stator 8% Qty 1 ( 750 x .08 = 60.00 Ea ) Qty 5 ( 450 x .08 = 36.00 Ea ) For Example
Damper 7% Qty 5 ( 450 x .07 = 31.50 Ea ) Qty 10 ( 295 x .07 = 20.65 Ea ) For Example **
** ( Price includes 6 Dampeners )
Please email me if you have any questions, and I will do my best to get you an answer... Sorry for not breaking this down in a better format, as I am pressed for time... If you need this quote formalized (like the original one I sent you), please let us know, and give us a few days, and we will have it for you... Otherwise, I hope this works for what you need...
Thanks again for the opportunity, I hope that we can help you out with this interesting project...
Regards ~"
(The contact at SPM is...)
Mert Rockney Jr.
Small Parts Manufacturing, Co. Inc.
Email: mert@smallpartsmfg.com
Tel: (503) 287-1181
Fax: (503) 288-4753
geodan
So what can we learn from combining the stator magnetic field change over time in the sawtooth pattern, with the stator speedup/slowdown over time as shown in Lumens experiment?
RunningBare, you said the sawtooth pattern was the last thing you would expect.
How about this thought experiment:
Take the pattern over time you would expect...
Now what shape of acceleration/deceleration would be needed to turn your expected pattern into a saw-tooth pattern?
It should be the same as the pattern seen by Lumen.
Or we could take the saw-tooth pattern, combine it with Lumens speedup/slowdown curve, and we should get the pattern you expected.
Hope this makes sense.
@btentzer,
I wonder if you found the address of the guys in Washington who offer the N35 cylinder magnets? I'd like to try rotor magnets of different strengths. Regarding the stator magnets, one problem I'm having is that I can't get the magnet and the bearing out of the encasement to try different combinations as @alsetalokin suggested.
The reason I was not expecting a sawtooth waveform, see picture below, excuse the image, it is just a rough analogy
If someone could confirm or show the field shape to be different please?
The way I figure it, the scope readings should have given sharp dips for point A and B
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcosmopod.com%2Fmysite%2Fbarefm%2Fop%2Fstatorfield.jpg&hash=3489e89de4ca86c1fe6918d4df759a30674529d7)
.
nevermind
Quote from: RunningBare on January 21, 2008, 09:27:39 PM
The reason I was not expecting a sawtooth waveform, see picture below, excuse the image, it is just a rough analogy
If someone could confirm or show the field shape to be different please?
The way I figure it, the scope readings should have given sharp dips for point A and B
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcosmopod.com%2Fmysite%2Fbarefm%2Fop%2Fstatorfield.jpg&hash=3489e89de4ca86c1fe6918d4df759a30674529d7)
Edited: Nevermind looked over Lumens later graphs, back to the drawing board!
Re effects and reverse spin.
Sink Science http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFMqPWSpmTY
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 21, 2008, 09:45:36 PM
Which should mean that points A and B must be passing the field sensor at the quickest, and the 90 degree opposite maximum poles at the slowest speed.
Would it be right to assume also that points A and B are at the saw-tooth peaks?
No, they should be nulls, points A and B are where north and south theoretically should be canceling each other out.
@Runningbare,@Omnibus
Re Sawtooth wave, Just going through all the sink science vids. Not sure if it is relevant but he does one with six balls. They bounce out and come back in again. It is not quite a sawtooth but close.
Also check out the magnetic liquid vids for some interesting patterns. I will try to find them and post later to save you time.
Six balls in sinkscience: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN26IQJbsuY
Quote from: RunningBare on January 21, 2008, 09:59:57 PM
No, they should be nulls, points A and B are where north and south theoretically should be canceling each other out.
Thanks RB, I'll think more, I have to look over Lumens later graphs again.
I know little about using coils to measure magnetic fields, thanks for your replies.
@PolyMatrix,
That's interesting but don't know this applies to the present study. @RunningBare's and @Lumen's approach is also interesting and may give further insight into what's happening and what to emphasize in the replication. I'd again point to the following video as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tknwdltnB6s .
We would really wanna know what the exact form of the rotor and stator fields are in @alsetalokin's video as well as their mutual disposition and ratio. It would be interesting if he can still demonstrate the effect of acceleration we see in that video. Also, if he can make another rig just like the one in the video and demonstrate the same effect of acceleration. Could it be that that was just a fluke which he came upon just fortuitously? It's sad that, although seemingly more cooperative than many others who have disappeared without a trace after making similar claims, he isn't forthcoming enough on these issues and we have to play a guessing game.
Magnet holding Feromagnetic liquid in dish, Notice the pattern.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY72o-JAp0Q
Make your on Feromagnetic fluid (Not recomended and toner gets everywhere!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEAgnuqt26Q
Inter reaction between ferrofluid and turning magnet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gso_XVxa-rE
Pattern 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cie-kR_Vi4
Ferofluid in rotating field (1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7YFsciXhj8
Ferofluid in rotating field (2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVDO8lNNGUk
This is the one I was thinking about in association with the @AL-rotorwheel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5OhZ9wT568
@ Omnibus
Also using the fluid maybe a help in analysis of what is happening.
@PolyMatrix,
I wonder how reproducible the patterns are so that they can be used as "fingerprints" of the magnets in a particular contraption. If so, successful rigs will be characterized by their own patterns which anyone trying to replicate the device should be vying to achieve first.
Now, that's the synchronicity in action. I was just typing the same.
@ OVERCONFIDENT, or anyone who knows him
I am studying metaphysical aspects of the OC MPMM and would like to know more about OC's dream in which he envisioned a system consisting of an OCTAGONAL rotor inside a PENTAGONAL stator.
Specifically, I'd like to know -- from OC -- if it's possible that he mistook the shape of the rotor, and if in fact the rotor could have a HEXAGONAL shape (i.e. 6 magnets).
OC: Is it possible that the rotor in your dream was HEXAGONAL and not OCTAGONAL?
Hexagons occur frequently in nature, from atomic packing to the swirling storm on the North magnet pole of Saturn,
Furthermore, Neodymium has a hexagonal crystal structure.
I do not have an account at Steorn, thus if anyone can contact OC and provide some feedback, I would appreciate it.
Here's the magnetic North pole of Saturn:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jpl.nasa.gov%2Fimages%2Fcassini%2Fpia09187-browse.gif&hash=24e796c1f037fc5a42c85ad789070370524c562c)
Yada ..
.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 21, 2008, 09:09:37 PM
@btentzer,
I wonder if you found the address of the guys in Washington who offer the N35 cylinder magnets? I'd like to try rotor magnets of different strengths. Regarding the stator magnets, one problem I'm having is that I can't get the magnet and the bearing out of the encasement to try different combinations as @alsetalokin suggested.
@ Omnibus
Here is the link: (They also carry other sizes. I should have ordered a couple of different strengths, between N35's and N42's)
http://www.armsmag.com/neodymium_stock_size.htm
Cheers,
Bruce
I wonder if we couldn't get away with simple means for now. A page or two back I presented data for my rotor magnets. What strikes me is the highly asymmetric field around quite a symmetric body such as our cylindrical magnets let alone the discrepancies in kgauss from magnet to magnet even when one pole concerned. I've always recognized this complexity of magnetic field around symmetrically shaped magnet as the culprit for the difficulty in reproducing a working one. Those who report success somehow hit upon a favorable configuration which even they cannot reproduce afterwards. Torbay motor is one prominent case. I will not be amazed if the current case is the same. Therefore, it is very imperative that people such as @alsetalonkin reporting positive results do a more thorough, deeper characterization of their creation especially in terms of the fields at play in a successful experiment. Too bad the inclination isn't more towards scientific exploration rather than just trying to solve technical issues and rely on chance to hit upon a successful configuration.
Quote from: btentzer on January 21, 2008, 11:19:07 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 21, 2008, 09:09:37 PM
@btentzer,
I wonder if you found the address of the guys in Washington who offer the N35 cylinder magnets? I'd like to try rotor magnets of different strengths. Regarding the stator magnets, one problem I'm having is that I can't get the magnet and the bearing out of the encasement to try different combinations as @alsetalokin suggested.
@ Omnibus
Here is the link: (They also carry other sizes. I should have order a couple of different strengths, between N35's and N42's)
http://www.armsmag.com/neodymium_stock_size.htm
Cheers,
Bruce
Thanks a lot. Will order them first thing in the morning. Good luck to you in your replication efforts.
So far most of us have succeeded in latching the lone stator AGW. That latching was the "mistake" which @alsetalokin made which he says led him to success. Obviously, however, there something more to it because no one here can yet see the self-sustaining spin despite the AGW latch. My next step will be to exchange the current N42 rotor magnets with N38 and then with N32 ans see if this would make any difference.
@ All
Please take a look at the :20 sec mark of this version of the OC MPMM.
Take note, that when Al spins the stator magnet located between the dampers, that the rotor does not spin. You can also see this at :39 sec mark.
Notice that when he turns lightly, both of the other stator magnets, the rotor also spins.
So, we too want to see this effect with our setup. Moving the stator between the dampers and the rotor does not spin. Conclusion: If it does, our rotor magnets are too strong.
Any thoughts?? :-\
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2Ck9xC4S44
Cheers,
Bruce
At the 20 second mark the non-spin you noticed is between the two bar magnets. That is it happens on the sharp end of the octogon.
@btentzer,
I forgot whether or not you have a setup yet to play with. If you do you'll see that behavior of the stator magnets immediately. They don't spin uniformly but each one has an extended period of rest while the rotor is moving.
@Omnibus
In the 6 balls Sinkscience vid it also occurs to me that it is a study in Inertia.
Quote from: PolyMatrix on January 21, 2008, 09:51:08 PM
Re effects and reverse spin.
Sink Science http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFMqPWSpmTY
steven mark device works Little bit like that video?
mmmhh maybe put compass top of that WhipMag and see what happens?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqEd3KHuEHU
Quote from: Omnibus on January 21, 2008, 11:35:59 PM
So far most of us have succeeded in latching the lone stator AGW. That latching was the "mistake" which @alsetalokin made which he says led him to success. Obviously, however, there something more to it because no one here can yet see the self-sustaining spin despite the AGW latch. My next step will be to exchange the current N42 rotor magnets with N38 and then with N32 ans see if this would make any difference.
After that you may want to try different combinations of magnet strengths.
Then possibly adding a pulsed electromagnet somewhere nearby.
And on another issue :
My problem with the measurements given by artificially maintaining the rotor speed is that there is energy constantly being added to the system and therefore it is not a good representation of the Al effect (if there is one).
Heres one for the conspiracy theorists ...
@All
Assuming it really worked at all. Do you think Al and OC are colluding to halt people from advancing their investigations into the "Whipmag" (still hate the name). ? After all, OC has now retired from the forums.
And Al, well I still cant fathom why they would be in contact after his behaviour though there seems to be no hard feelings. Just doesn't add up to me.
@dean_mcgowan,
@overconfident is completely unimportant in this discussion and shouldn?t be mentioned at all. As for @alsetalokin, his behavior has been strange from the get-go. Since, however, the important point is whether or not there?s an effect one has to detach himself from the character issues. As of now most of us are taking his claims unassuming, honestly trying to replicate what?s shown in the video without any suggestion of fraud (pulsed electromagnet somewhere, hidden motor etc.) Recall that he also explicitly denies such deliberately set hidden energy sources.
As for the spinning by adding external energy, while it?s not the effect claimed, it can give an estimate of the energy produced from within should we be able to observe the acceleration seen in the video. A rotor of a given mass and form requires only a strictly set amount of energy to spin at a certain rpm. Thus if we observe spinning of that rotor at such rpm with no input of energy then we will know the exact amount of energy out of nothing obtained (if the effect seen in the video is real). Call knowing the external energy necessary to spin the rotor at given rpm calibration. Spinning by adding external energy also gives a picture of the behavior of the machine?s various parts and that sometimes may give hints what direction to follow in search of the effect.
Quote from: sterlinga on January 21, 2008, 12:57:22 PM
@CLaNZeR,
I got to thinking today, while revising the opening review at PESWiki (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor).
If I were you, seeing how you've had such a hard time getting the spec magnets to work, I'd go back to your interim set-up as shown at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZPI5BwccsA and try to optimize that set-up.
Go with what works.
- - - -
@All,
I've created a shortcut url for the PESWiki OC MPMM open source project home page: http://www.OC-MPMM.com
Hello,
If you have an off center rotation with a magnets,like you see in a video, it means that there is an acceleration effect, because magnets moves with a elliptical path. This means also that the possible charge that is created, radiates because of the acceleration and can form EM patterns around, to collect more charged particles from the environment.
Esa
@Esa Maunu,
No, that's not only far-fetched but outright impossible. Radiation, if we can speak of initial charging at all, amounts to loss of energy, not gain.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 03:48:59 AM
@dean_mcgowan,
As for the spinning by adding external energy, while it?s not the effect claimed, it can give an estimate of the energy produced from within should we be able to observe the acceleration seen in the video. A rotor of a given mass and form requires only a strictly set amount of energy to spin at a certain rpm. Thus if we observe spinning of that rotor at such rpm with no input of energy then we will know the exact amount of energy out of nothing obtained (if the effect seen in the video is real). Call knowing the external energy necessary to spin the rotor at given rpm calibration. Spinning by adding external energy also gives a picture of the behavior of the machine?s various parts and that sometimes may give hints what direction to follow in search of the effect.
I think you miss my point with regard to the fact the magnets would be acting to contribute a breaking effect to the system as opposed to an acceleratory (if there is such a word) force as seen in Al's model and that I believe may be a rather different anomaly and would exhibit different attributes. Something akin to advancing the timing on a distributor.. though i know little about cars also.
Still cannot comprehend why an individual would want to stand in the way or refuse to support a development such as this. I can think of different motivations, however they don't really match the character profiles displayed by the co inventors.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 03:54:31 AM
@Esa Maunu,
No, that's not only far-fetched but outright impossible. Radiation, if we can speak of initial charging at all, amounts to loss of energy, not gain.
I am talking about the shape of the created pattern, that is able to collect energy from the environment, if that pattern is in a correct form.
Esa
@dean_mcgowa,
Again, there are no co-inventors. @overconfident has in fact no role in this. If real, credi should go solely to @alsetalokin. These ideas aren?t new. New would be to have someone produce a working model in flesh and blood. That?s the real contribution.
As for the reasons for @alsetalokin?s strange behavior, he has given explanations (mostly revolving around his employer and his paycheck), there have been various speculations. Undoubtedly, he has damaged his reputation beyond repair. However, that?s not the issue. The issue is whether or not this effect is real and can be reproduced. This machine should be analyzed as is, the character issues being outside of the factors having anything to do with its functioning.
As for the point you?re making, you?re right that the effect, if real, would be due to reasons other than the reasons why a rotor would spin due to external energy input. However, that a disc of a given mass and form must have only a certain amount of energy imparted to it in order to spin at a given rpm is an undeniable fact. That fact won?t change no matter how the observed rpm were reached and what attributes were achieved in accomplishing said rotation.
Quote from: Esa Maunu on January 22, 2008, 04:14:32 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 03:54:31 AM
@Esa Maunu,
No, that's not only far-fetched but outright impossible. Radiation, if we can speak of initial charging at all, amounts to loss of energy, not gain.
I am talking about the shape of the created pattern, that is able to collect energy from the environment, if that pattern is in a correct form.
Esa
Unless you propose a concrete model, that sounds frivolous.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 04:29:14 AM
Quote from: Esa Maunu on January 22, 2008, 04:14:32 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 03:54:31 AM
@Esa Maunu,
No, that's not only far-fetched but outright impossible. Radiation, if we can speak of initial charging at all, amounts to loss of energy, not gain.
I am talking about the shape of the created pattern, that is able to collect energy from the environment, if that pattern is in a correct form.
Esa
Unless you propose a concrete model, that sounds frivolous.
It is a question of the nested, cylindrical EM fields around the device, that are able to collect charges from the environment. Every inner cylindrical EM field is little closer than the next outer field. When phase changes in a field, the charge moves towards the center of the system. To create such a fields, we need to have a prime numbers ( 1, 3, 5, 7 etc ) of the sending units around. This way it is not possible to create subharmonics patterns, but harmonic patters are possible and those harmonic patterns exists in a distance 2 x radius , 3 x radius etc, around the device.
Esa
Quote from: Esa Maunu on January 22, 2008, 04:54:32 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 04:29:14 AM
Quote from: Esa Maunu on January 22, 2008, 04:14:32 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 03:54:31 AM
@Esa Maunu,
No, that's not only far-fetched but outright impossible. Radiation, if we can speak of initial charging at all, amounts to loss of energy, not gain.
I am talking about the shape of the created pattern, that is able to collect energy from the environment, if that pattern is in a correct form.
Esa
Unless you propose a concrete model, that sounds frivolous.
It is a question of the nested, cylindrical EM fields around the device, that are able to collect charges from the environment. Every inner cylindrical EM field is little closer than the next outer field. When phase changes in a field, the charge moves towards the center of the system. To create such a fields, we need to have a prime numbers ( 1, 3, 5, 7 etc ) of the sending units around. This way it is not possible to create subharmonics patterns, but harmonic patters are possible and those harmonic patterns exists in a distance 2 x radius , 3 x radius etc, around the device.
Esa
This requires spending energy, the device (if what we see in the video is real) generates energy.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 04:58:58 AM
Quote from: Esa Maunu on January 22, 2008, 04:54:32 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 04:29:14 AM
Quote from: Esa Maunu on January 22, 2008, 04:14:32 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 03:54:31 AM
@Esa Maunu,
No, that's not only far-fetched but outright impossible. Radiation, if we can speak of initial charging at all, amounts to loss of energy, not gain.
I am talking about the shape of the created pattern, that is able to collect energy from the environment, if that pattern is in a correct form.
Esa
Unless you propose a concrete model, that sounds frivolous.
It is a question of the nested, cylindrical EM fields around the device, that are able to collect charges from the environment. Every inner cylindrical EM field is little closer than the next outer field. When phase changes in a field, the charge moves towards the center of the system. To create such a fields, we need to have a prime numbers ( 1, 3, 5, 7 etc ) of the sending units around. This way it is not possible to create subharmonics patterns, but harmonic patters are possible and those harmonic patterns exists in a distance 2 x radius , 3 x radius etc, around the device.
Esa
This requires spending energy, the device (if what we see in the video is real) generates energy.
I see that it is difficult understand this phenomena. Sorry.
Esa
Quote from: Esa Maunu on January 22, 2008, 05:10:08 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 04:58:58 AM
Quote from: Esa Maunu on January 22, 2008, 04:54:32 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 04:29:14 AM
Quote from: Esa Maunu on January 22, 2008, 04:14:32 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 03:54:31 AM
@Esa Maunu,
No, that's not only far-fetched but outright impossible. Radiation, if we can speak of initial charging at all, amounts to loss of energy, not gain.
I am talking about the shape of the created pattern, that is able to collect energy from the environment, if that pattern is in a correct form.
Esa
Unless you propose a concrete model, that sounds frivolous.
It is a question of the nested, cylindrical EM fields around the device, that are able to collect charges from the environment. Every inner cylindrical EM field is little closer than the next outer field. When phase changes in a field, the charge moves towards the center of the system. To create such a fields, we need to have a prime numbers ( 1, 3, 5, 7 etc ) of the sending units around. This way it is not possible to create subharmonics patterns, but harmonic patters are possible and those harmonic patterns exists in a distance 2 x radius , 3 x radius etc, around the device.
Esa
This requires spending energy, the device (if what we see in the video is real) generates energy.
I see that it is difficult understand this phenomena. Sorry.
Esa
No, yours isn't a phenomenon but just some confusion you have.
I am not sure you understand what this is about. If you have never experienced a phenomenon and/or believe that science is the holy grail, it would be hard to understand. There are many holes in science and people have an emotional attachment to their beliefs. As someone who has been sitting idle and reading all these posts for the past few days, I cannot begin to understand all that has been going on. I do know this. Even if this was not true, it would only validate your beliefs. On the other hand, at least to some of us believe there are a lot of anomalies that happen that science cannot explain yet. If you are trying to discredit us, that won't happen. Negativity will not stop progress. You make it sound as if you have a greater understanding about this because science knows everything and that is what you believe. I do not wish to disrespect you in any way, but please give us a chance to prove you right by not posting unless it is has revelance to the focus issue, there by giving you a quicker route to your ultimate goal.
Regards,
B
B
Hi guys,
watched a program the other night on sky tv about the sun, when they started talking about 'free magnetic energy', the magnetic lines are in constant motion and get twisted and wound up like an elastic band when these break or re-attach somewhere else thay can release all that stored up twisted energy 'like an explosion', anyhoo, could the lines of force from the stators to the rotor get twisted up and then release it all giving the rotor a nice big spin?
Quote from: twosox on January 22, 2008, 05:29:26 AM
Hi guys,
watched a program the other night on sky tv about the sun, when they started talking about 'free magnetic energy', the magnetic lines are in constant motion and get twisted and wound up like an elastic band when these break or re-attach somewhere else thay can release all that stored up twisted energy 'like an explosion', anyhoo, could the lines of force from the stators to the rotor get twisted up and then release it all giving the rotor a nice big spin?
Yes, that phenomenon is called magnetic reconnection and is one of the properties of the 90 degree gating force describes in this article here: www.fdp.nu/free_energy.asp?book=90. Check out the section about QMME (Quantum Mechanical Molecular Energy). It is what Howard Johnson believed was the driving force behind his magnetic systems.
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: icanbeatbob on January 22, 2008, 05:27:56 AM
I am not sure you understand what this is about. If you have never experienced a phenomenon and/or believe that science is the holy grail, it would be hard to understand. There are many holes in science and people have an emotional attachment to their beliefs. As someone who has been sitting idle and reading all these posts for the past few days, I cannot begin to understand all that has been going on. I do know this. Even if this was not true, it would only validate your beliefs. On the other hand, at least to some of us believe there are a lot of anomalies that happen that science cannot explain yet. If you are trying to discredit us, that won't happen. Negativity will not stop progress. You make it sound as if you have a greater understanding about this because science knows everything and that is what you believe. I do not wish to disrespect you in any way, but please give us a chance to prove you right by not posting unless it is has revelance to the focus issue, there by giving you a quicker route to your ultimate goal.
Regards,
B
B
What you're saying isn't enough. Bare statements don't count in science. You have to prove your claims which you haven't.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 05:58:21 AM
What you're saying isn't enough. Bare statements don't count in science. You have to prove your claims which you haven't.
Unless your poster name is Omnibus!
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 05:12:10 AM
Quote from: Esa Maunu on January 22, 2008, 05:10:08 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 04:58:58 AM
Quote from: Esa Maunu on January 22, 2008, 04:54:32 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 04:29:14 AM
Quote from: Esa Maunu on January 22, 2008, 04:14:32 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 03:54:31 AM
@Esa Maunu,
No, that's not only far-fetched but outright impossible. Radiation, if we can speak of initial charging at all, amounts to loss of energy, not gain.
I am talking about the shape of the created pattern, that is able to collect energy from the environment, if that pattern is in a correct form.
Esa
Unless you propose a concrete model, that sounds frivolous.
It is a question of the nested, cylindrical EM fields around the device, that are able to collect charges from the environment. Every inner cylindrical EM field is little closer than the next outer field. When phase changes in a field, the charge moves towards the center of the system. To create such a fields, we need to have a prime numbers ( 1, 3, 5, 7 etc ) of the sending units around. This way it is not possible to create subharmonics patterns, but harmonic patters are possible and those harmonic patterns exists in a distance 2 x radius , 3 x radius etc, around the device.
Esa
This requires spending energy, the device (if what we see in the video is real) generates energy.
I see that it is difficult understand this phenomena. Sorry.
Esa
No, yours isn't a phenomenon but just some confusion you have.
This is a phenomenon, measured for exsample by Roschin & Godin when they build the SEG replication.
http://www.searlsolution.com/evidence2.html
Esa
Quote from: hoptoad on January 22, 2008, 06:45:52 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 05:58:21 AM
What you're saying isn't enough. Bare statements don't count in science. You have to prove your claims which you haven't.
Unless your poster name is Omnibus!
Not at all. If I make bare statements of the sort that fellow did, they won't count either. You are slandering.
@Esa Maunu,
I agree the contraption we're trying to replicate is based on the same idea as Searl's motor, Lego and many other designs proposed throughout the decades. The principles the magnetic motors are based on are well known despite the seemingly different designs. What remains to be seen is a real demonstrable, reproduced by independent parties such motor. That would be the real contribution in this field. The paper you cite, however, contains highly controversial assertions whose validity isn't at all obvious and has to be studied further. Mere sprinkling of a text with words sounding scientific, although pleasing to the ear of an enthusiast, doesn't accomplish much in sustaining the claims. Unfortunately, studying these effects, even if one may find this necessary, is marginal with respect to the studies at hand which are more or less of a practical nature aiming at reproducing a claimed self-sustaining motor. There are many interesting things worthy of study in science (many scientifically sounding ones not worthy at all) but one has to prioritize them. The good in-depth studies in science are systematic as a rule.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 07:07:58 AM
@Eas Maunu,
I agree the contraption we're trying to replicate is based on the same idea as Searl's motor, Lego and many other designs proposed throughout the decades. The paper you cite, however, contains highly controversial assertions whose validity isn't at all obvious and has to be studied further. Unfortunately, studying these effects is marginal with respect to the studies at hand which are more or less of a practical nature aiming at reproducing a claimed self-sustaining motor. There are many interesting things worthy of study in science but one has to prioritize them. The good in-depth studies in science are systematic as a rule.
@Omnibus,
I just try to give some insight and explanation about the devices possible operational principles. To have a progress, we have to keep our eyes open, and avoid to say only that it does not work, especially without explanation, why.
Esa
@Esa Maunu,
How can the explanations you give turn our non-working machines into working and perform as the video shows? Let's be practical for a change.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 07:37:24 AM
@Esa Maunu,
How can the explanations you give turn our non-working machines into working and perform as the video shows? Let's be practical for a change.
I think you should try to use a off-center rotation, to have an accelerating and therefore radiating charge to form an nested, cylindrical field around the device.
Also i think that this kind of nested, cylindrical field is able to compress the zpe, that has an electrical nature. If you are able to change locally the density of the zpe, it causes an repulsion effect from the mass structures, and makes the system to rotate.
Esa
Quote from: Esa Maunu on January 22, 2008, 08:06:05 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 07:37:24 AM
@Esa Maunu,
How can the explanations you give turn our non-working machines into working and perform as the video shows? Let's be practical for a change.
I think you should try to use a off-center rotation, to have an accelerating and therefore radiating charge to form an nested, cylindrical field around the device.
Also i think that this kind of nested, cylindrical field is able to compress the zpe, that has an electrical nature. If you are able to change locally the density of the zpe, it causes an repulsion effect from the mass structures, and makes the system to rotate.
Esa
Perhaps you can also use springs below the device, to allow the device to vibrate and have an accelerating effect. Roschin & Godin device was also build to stand on springs.
Esa
Quote from: Esa Maunu on January 22, 2008, 08:35:28 AM
Quote from: Esa Maunu on January 22, 2008, 08:06:05 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 07:37:24 AM
@Esa Maunu,
How can the explanations you give turn our non-working machines into working and perform as the video shows? Let's be practical for a change.
I think you should try to use a off-center rotation, to have an accelerating and therefore radiating charge to form an nested, cylindrical field around the device.
Also i think that this kind of nested, cylindrical field is able to compress the zpe, that has an electrical nature. If you are able to change locally the density of the zpe, it causes an repulsion effect from the mass structures, and makes the system to rotate.
Esa
Perhaps you can also use springs below the device, to allow the device to vibrate and have an accelerating effect. Roschin & Godin device was also build to stand on springs.
Esa
If you have a theory please start a new thread, we are not interested , we want to replicate this , we will argue how it works latter.
Anybody, Does anyone have a source for n30, n35 rotor magnets in europe? That link previously has a min order value a bit high and they don't post out of the US.
Do you fellows really believe, in your heart of hearts, after a week or more of people trying to replicate Al's results, some of the tries using devices that are almost exact duplicates of Al's, and without the slightest indication of OU - do you really think the thing is for real?
Isn't it obvious that Al is hoaxing you, or is deluded?
i think when you rotate rotor it need to afect rotating stator too but not wery strong . like in experiment with tesla turbine and ball. wen stator starts feeling to reach shorter distance to unity of poles rotating oposite direction not same then anomaly starts.
Roschin & Godin device is the same as Alsetalokin's only with more magnets and biger
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rexresearch.com%2Froschin%2Frogo1.jpg&hash=0d0bb082e5f3b0eda12713c9bae356e2a0aa6d52)
something new
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hwMZQ-A0NE
Quote from: canam101 on January 22, 2008, 09:10:52 AM
Do you fellows really believe, in your heart of hearts, after a week or more of people trying to replicate Al's results, some of the tries using devices that are almost exact duplicates of Al's, and without the slightest indication of OU - do you really think the thing is for real?
Isn't it obvious that Al is hoaxing you, or is deluded?
To me it isn't obvious. Reproducing scientific results sometimes takes years and decades. I've only been in this for less than a month. The principle this motor is based on is the general principle all magnetic motors are based on only slightly less cumbersome than other rigs to study it. We already know that CoE can be violated and that these motors work. What remains is to exert proper engineering efforts to create a real working one and this is what we're trying to do here. Why are you so impatient? Do you have any reasons to suspect foul play?
I don't think we should dismiss @Esa Maunu's ideas on this completely, if testers are willing to experiment at a later stage. (Lets not get ahead of the scientific method! As proof is repeatable results)
However it occurred to me and maybe some others, as I am catching up with posts just now, that the balls in the sink science mentioned earlier could be used to analyse the system. Eg a big plastic circular tray with steel balls covered with clingfilm placed over the OC-MPMM or a test bed device with variable speed motors on the two spindles could give a possible insight into the interactions, of the magnets. The 'tray' does not have to be attached to the OC-MPMM thus hopefully avoiding additional moment of Inertia but suspect that if the steel balls are too big will cause significant magnetic drag. So start with one ball and add another so the pattern emerges rather than slam in a handful and hope.
@canam101
Can you tell me the tolerance needed to reproduce what was seen? Plus or minus what weight, plus or minus what in magnetic strengths are needed to be sure that what was recorded is fake? If you cannot be precise about that then we are happy to assume for the moment that it was genuine.
Babbage had an idea for a mechanical difference engine, the science museum (England) completed the build and found it to work. However the tolerance for making gears in Babbage's time was too far out for Babbage to complete the machine.
So we may be looking at a one off or temporary (serendipitous) moment when everything was just right and the coefficient of friction may have changed just enough to stop it working. It is difficult to cope mentally when you have a dream and find that the dream does not work as expected. So I am prepared to accept the behaviour of @Alsetalokin as quite normal.
We are also extremely lucky in that it was recorded before experimental error or environmental factors got in the way of a working effect.
So my question for you is how qualified in all aspects concerning experimental discovery are you to make such judgements?
Quote from: PolyMatrix on January 22, 2008, 12:04:22 PM
@canam101
Can you tell me the tolerance needed to reproduce what was seen? Plus or minus what weight, plus or minus what in magnetic strengths are needed to be sure that what was recorded is fake? If you cannot be precise about that then we are happy to assume for the moment that it was genuine.
Babbage had an idea for a mechanical difference engine, the science museum (England) completed the build and found it to work. However the tolerance for making gears in Babbage's time was too far out for Babbage to complete the machine.
So we may be looking at a one off or temporary (serendipitous) moment when everything was just right and the coefficient of friction may have changed just enough to stop it working. It is difficult to cope mentally when you have a dream and find that the dream does not work as expected. So I am prepared to accept the behaviour of @Alsetalokin as quite normal.
We are also extremely lucky in that it was recorded before experimental error or environmental factors got in the way of a working effect.
So my question for you is how qualified in all aspects concerning experimental discovery are you to make such judgements?
Right on.
Quote from: PolyMatrix on January 22, 2008, 11:36:57 AM
I don't think we should dismiss @Esa Maunu's ideas on this completely, if testers are willing to experiment at a later stage. (Lets not get ahead of the scientific method! As proof is repeatable results)
However it occurred to me and maybe some others, as I am catching up with posts just now, that the balls in the sink science mentioned earlier could be used to analyse the system. Eg a big plastic circular tray with steel balls covered with clingfilm placed over the OC-MPMM or a test bed device with variable speed motors on the two spindles could give a possible insight into the interactions, of the magnets. The 'tray' does not have to be attached to the OC-MPMM thus hopefully avoiding additional moment of Inertia but suspect that if the steel balls are too big will cause significant magnetic drag. So start with one ball and add another so the pattern emerges rather than slam in a handful and hope.
I will dismiss this out of hand for reasons to long to explain here. Besides this isn't the thread for such discussions. Let's continue with our replication efforts.
I admit I can barely run a toaster, but something seems wrong with this:
Al supposedly found this by playing around with a configuration derived from OC's idea. The number of stators was altered by him on a guess, apparently, and the exact distances from the rotor magnets to the stator magnets were also gotten by the "let's give it a try" method. Same for the strengths of the rotor and stator magnets. It was all playing around, all guesswork.
If that's how he ended up getting the amazing accelerations that we saw in his video, it seems unlikely that the tolerances of his device were so close that deviating from them by a millimeter would keep the thing from working. It's much more likely, it seems to me, that there is a fairly generous range of magnet strengths and positions which would yield at least a little of what Al saw.
Yet, after a week or more of tries, done with some very close, from the look of them, reproductions of his setup, nobody has seen anything.
If the failure is to be explained by saying that everything has to be within one millimeter of some position and one gauss of some magnet strength to work, then Al not only spun the stator the 'wrong' way by accident, he also hit upon this precisely needed setup by accident.
It beggars the imagination, mine anyway, that it could be like that.
[edited for clarity]
It's too early here to order the N35 from that Washington State company but I'll do it later in the afternoon. Someone, however, mentioned N30. Who's selling them? It's good to try a spectrum of magnetic inductions. Later I think I'm going to ask friends in a magnetic company to help me degrade or boost the magnets at intermittent values. Let's hope the results will come about sooner and there'll be no need for that.
(Observation moved to debate thread.)
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3949.msg72401;topicseen#msg72401 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3949.msg72401;topicseen#msg72401)
@Omnibus
What grade of bearing did u incorporated into your Stators? I recall u stated "R3", Was curious to what the runout is in the "Y" axis with the single bearing as per the Replication specification in your Rep.
Best Regards
Bill
The shop I am working with can do the work based on Jason's drawings and quantity of 20 each.
1. Rotor, CNC'd $26
2. Base plate 1/2" thick, hand drilled, 13 holes no tap, $32 each.
3. Base plate 1/2" thick, hand drilled, 5 holes w/tap $30 each.
I might be able to produce the stator holder for you. I'll have to figure out how much I need to charge. I need to pay for use of lathe. Possibly $3/piece if we have 20x3.
I just paid $28 for rotor, $50 for base plate, 3 each.
you pay the actual shipping.
Quote from: martinzurix on January 22, 2008, 09:39:10 AM
something new
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hwMZQ-A0NE
I created a breif feature page of this unsuccessful replication.
- Variablestatus' replication of the OC MPMM Magnet Motor (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:variablestatus) - A loose variant replica only decelerates. It does illustrate rotating magnetic field interactions at a distance of a few inches. (PESWiki; Jan 22, 2008)
- http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:variablestatus
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpeswiki.com%2Fimages%2F8%2F8c%2FVariablestatus_MPMM_three-stators_250.jpg&hash=e865a5c1b57d47c23570902fb2c71c44e132efbc)
I find it interesting that people who don't do close replicas and find they don't work are so quick to say, "it must be a hoax".
Quote from: martinzurix on January 22, 2008, 09:39:10 AM
something new
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hwMZQ-A0NE
Hi martinzurix,
Interesting replication, thx for posting.
He reports a wind down of 22 minutes.
It would be interesting to get wind down time without the "stators", from the same initial rotor rpm.
Thanks
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 21, 2008, 01:24:11 PM
Cannot remember which Video now , but in one of them I demonstrate that the magnets loose interaction at certain RPM's and as the Rotor slows down again they start to interact. I think at about 800 RPM the AGW actually lost it as well.
Did a new Spin up test today and New Correct Stator Magnets do indeed keep up past 1700RPM
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSDropoutTest.wmv
Cheers
Sean.
Here's another of the same setup martinzui pointed out on the previous page, now with one stator:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPvi2GwTm9Y&feature=related
[Edit] And with 2 stator magnets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Zgi5dIWR4
Quote from: vipond50 on January 22, 2008, 02:01:14 PM
@Omnibus
What grade of bearing did u incorporated into your Stators? I recall u stated "R3", Was curious to what the runout is in the "Y" axis with the single bearing as per the Replication specification in your Rep.
Best Regards
Bill
Yes, indeed, the stator bearings are R3 unshielded. Don't understand what you want me to do. If you're curious about the wind down time, it's almost instantaneous. When spinning it by hand it makes 2-3 turns and stops. Let me know if you want me to try something else here.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 22, 2008, 02:34:27 PM
Did a new Spin up test today and New Correct Stator Magnets do indeed keep up past 1700RPM
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSDropoutTest.wmv
Cheers
Sean.
Nice video again Sean.
Two questions on it:
1) whats this green/blue stuff: chewing gum? For extra weight?
2) Why are you applying the dampers? They are suppose to reduce speed, but you don't want that right now, do you?
Removed, double post
Quote from: robbie47 on January 22, 2008, 02:49:55 PM
1) whats this green/blue stuff: chewing gum? For extra weight?
2) Why are you applying the dampers? They are suppose to reduce speed, but you don't want that right now, don't you?
Hi Robbie
The Blue Tac is there to bring the weight of the Stator Magnets upto 10g each.
I have started on my final Stators now.
Regards the Dampners, while doing wind down tests I came across this:
NOTE: knock a 0 off the end of each RPM mark so 4500 =450 rpm
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fgraphdampners1.jpg&hash=46d6a99b95407c9572830cd5cbca9c328d921acf)
As you can see the Dampners do carry the Rotor for a bit longer before the drop.
So not only do they maybe act as brakes up the up but also on the down.
I was actually shocked to see the difference as I dismissed the dampners a little, but it does look like they do indeed have an effect bigger than I thought.
I am not sure if the Dampners I have used are made out of 6061-T6 but have some 1/2" bars hopefully here tomorrow of the 6061-T6 and will be interesting to compare the difference.
Be interesting too see what the correct Dampners do when they arrive.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 02:49:35 PM
Quote from: vipond50 on January 22, 2008, 02:01:14 PM
@Omnibus
What grade of bearing did u incorporated into your Stators? I recall u stated "R3", Was curious to what the runout is in the "Y" axis with the single bearing as per the Replication specification in your Rep.
Best Regards
Bill
Yes, indeed, the stator bearings are R3 unshielded. Don't understand what you want me to do. If you're curious about the wind down time, it's almost instantaneous. When spinning it by hand it makes 2-3 turns and stops. Let me know if you want me to try something else here.
Hello
No, No test requests from me, Sounds like the bearings are to loose (wobble). I found this with the R3 bearing. The R3 i believe is a ABEC - 1 grade (the lowest). I am switching to a ABEC - 5 or ABEC - 7. I found these bearings at for (Grade 7 -$11.57 each) and (Grade 5 - $6.30 each). From what I have reviewed the bearing that Al incorporated had to have been a 5 or better or else the wobble would be in the order of 0.080". This as U know is an important issue with this device. If to much run out the rotor and Stator (AGW) coupling will degrade very very quickly as U are witnessing currently due to the pitching of the bearing. That said I would recommend to look at a better grade of bearing.
Thanks for the reply
Best Regards
Bill
@ClaNZeR,
Just to make it clear?the blue curve is the wind down curve with dampers while the red is without, correct? Is the lone stator latched in both cases? Also, is the hitch between 150 and 200 rpm always reproducible?
I should add, I think the effect is greater than the one shown because you have to shift the red curve slightly to the left. The two wind down curves have to start from the same rpm. It?s interesting that the effect (aside from the mentioned hitch) kicks in at about 400rpm which is about the rpm where the acceleration appears in the video.
Keep the good work, mate.
Quote from: vipond50 on January 22, 2008, 03:10:19 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 02:49:35 PM
Quote from: vipond50 on January 22, 2008, 02:01:14 PM
@Omnibus
What grade of bearing did u incorporated into your Stators? I recall u stated "R3", Was curious to what the runout is in the "Y" axis with the single bearing as per the Replication specification in your Rep.
Best Regards
Bill
Yes, indeed, the stator bearings are R3 unshielded. Don't understand what you want me to do. If you're curious about the wind down time, it's almost instantaneous. When spinning it by hand it makes 2-3 turns and stops. Let me know if you want me to try something else here.
Hello
No, No test requests from me, Sounds like the bearings are to loose (wobble). I found this with the R3 bearing. The R3 i believe is a ABEC - 1 grade (the lowest). I am switching to a ABEC - 5 or ABEC - 7. I found these bearings at for (Grade 7 -$11.57 each) and (Grade 5 - $6.30 each). From what I have reviewed the bearing that Al incorporated had to have been a 5 or better or else the wobble would be in the order of 0.080". This as U know is an important issue with this device. If to much run out the rotor and Stator (AGW) coupling will degrade very very quickly as U are witnessing currently due to the pitching of the bearing. That said I would recommend to look at a better grade of bearing.
Thanks for the reply
Best Regards
Bill
Indeed, the stator bearings wobble and I am concerned about it. Would be interesting to ask @alsetalokin about the importance of this wobble again. It seems he isn't too concerned about it. Nevertheless, will have to try it with a better grade bearings when the weaker rotor magnets arrive.
As for the AGW coupling, it seems that the wobbling doesn't matter. Once its latched it keeps going, that's what I'm observing so far.
just put a stator in on my rig but with 3mm bearings top and bottom. What a difference, So quiet !!! lol
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 03:18:30 PM
@ClaNZeR,
Just to make it clear?the blue curve is the wind down curve with dampers while the red is without, correct? Is the lone stator latched in both cases? Also, is the hitch between 150 and 200 rpm always reproducible?
Yep correct bot single stator with AGW Latch. Red with No dampners and Blue with Dampners.
Both latched into AGW at approx 360 RPM
Quote
I should add, I think the effect is greater than the one shown because you have to shift the red curve slightly to the left. The two wind down curves have to start from the same rpm. It?s interesting that the effect (aside from the mentioned hitch) kicks in at about 400rpm which is about the rpm where the acceleration appears in the video.
They are both close to their starting points but as you can see the Blue line shows the dampners have a effect without AGW as well.
Cheers
Sean.
On detail I would like to point out to the replicators...
Al was quick to point out that the rotor magnets are in one plane, the top of the stator magnets are at a height that begins at the bottom level of the rotor magnets (so the stator magnets are at a plane just below the rotor mags - maybe 0.5" above the base), and then the top of the dampers are at a level just below the stators (this would put them basically sitting down on the base).
I have parts and materials, but no rig to play with, so all I can do is just sit back and pick at the details, but I hope this helps someone.
Most of the replications I see have the rotor mags and the stator mags in one plane, and no dampers involved.
Maybe a vitual elipse in the mag field is what is required? I pointed this out in previously and no one really paid much attention, could the rotor magnets be slightly off center and this cause an slight field anomally which would interact with the stators and the dampers?
Take a look at Al's video again, note how the rotor mags in a couple of places look like they are off center just a bit, what if 2 of them are shifted slightly closer to one side to increase the field interaction? A magnet on the opposite side (180 degrees) is also shifted to compensate for the weight imbalance so we would have the ns-sn-ns pattern but in 2 places we have a stronger repelling field and in 2 other places a weaker one. could this provide the oscillation that is sought?
Just a thought I had. Maybe someone can test this theory if they like.
Just a Thought if Sean has contact with AL. Could he lay the rotor on photo copy machine and fax a layout. Then we know for sure if there was any error's in milling. Update with Me still waiting for parts and you guys are doing a great job
Wayne
@Any
I thought I heard acceleration without air on the disc, but not actually sure, what the huming sound meant
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 22, 2008, 03:00:29 PM
Quote from: robbie47 on January 22, 2008, 02:49:55 PM
1) whats this green/blue stuff: chewing gum? For extra weight?
2) Why are you applying the dampers? They are suppose to reduce speed, but you don't want that right now, don't you?
Hi Robbie
The Blue Tac is there to bring the weight of the Stator Magnets upto 10g each.
I have started on my final Stators now.
Regards the Dampners, while doing wind down tests I came across this:
NOTE: knock a 0 off the end of each RPM mark so 4500 =450 rpm
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fgraphdampners1.jpg&hash=46d6a99b95407c9572830cd5cbca9c328d921acf)
As you can see the Dampners do carry the Rotor for a bit longer before the drop.
So not only do they maybe act as brakes up the up but also on the down.
I was actually shocked to see the difference as I dismissed the dampners a little, but it does look like they do indeed have an effect bigger than I thought.
I am not sure if the Dampners I have used are made out of 6061-T6 but have some 1/2" bars hopefully here tomorrow of the 6061-T6 and will be interesting to compare the difference.
Be interesting too see what the correct Dampners do when they arrive.
Cheers
Sean.
@CLaNZeR:
I've been lurking here and at Steorn since the start of this - excellent work so far. What does the graph look like overlaid with a baseline reading of just the rotor wind down with no stators? Just interested in seeing how much energy is taken out of the system visually.
KLiC
UK
@KlickUK,
Sorry to intervene. I've done it with my rig and I think @CLaNZeR will report a similar thing--without stators the wind down time of mine is about 220s. With stators without AGW latch its about 15s and with AGW latch about 35s. I'm talking about the rig which is the closest copy to @alsetalokin's. The other (having recommended rectangular rotor magnets) isn't with me right now and can't tell.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 04:17:04 PM
@KlickUK,
Sorry to intervene. I've done it with my rig and I think @CLaNZeR will report a similar thing--without stators the wind down time of mine is about 220s. With stators without AGW latch its about 15s and with AGW latch about 35s. I'm talking about the rig which is the closest copy to @alsetalokin's. The other (having recommended rectangular rotor magnets) isn't with me right now and can't tell.
@Omnibus: Thanks for that. I'm impressed with your effort too. Lots of good work going on all around in fact.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 04:17:04 PM
@KlickUK,
Sorry to intervene. I've done it with my rig and I think @CLaNZeR will report a similar thing--without stators the wind down time of mine is about 220s. With stators without AGW latch its about 15s and with AGW latch about 35s. I'm talking about the rig which is the closest copy to @alsetalokin's. The other (having recommended rectangular rotor magnets) isn't with me right now and can't tell.
That is what you would expect without any OU, correct?
Quote from: klicUK on January 22, 2008, 04:12:37 PM
I've been lurking here and at Steorn since the start of this - excellent work so far. What does the graph look like overlaid with a baseline reading of just the rotor wind down with no stators? Just interested in seeing how much energy is taken out of the system visually.
Hi KlicUK
Below the graph shows:
1.) BLUE: AGW Lock at around 410 RPM
2.) RED: With Stator no AGW attempted
3.) PURPLE: No Stator Wind Down.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fgraph1.jpg&hash=d1a03ac7b08ebb489805345d87987950281a9cb2)
Spreadsheets are available at http://overunity.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=71.0
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: canam101 on January 22, 2008, 04:25:53 PM
That is what you would expect without any OU, correct?
Yep but you have to do the Dummy Run really to get a baseline too look for any gains, so a valid request.
Cheers
Sean.
Actually it appears there is no difference between AGW and normal as there is a delay on the AGW before it starts from 4000 rpms or rather it begins at a higher RPM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 22, 2008, 04:42:44 PM
Actually it appears there is no difference between AGW and normal as there is a delay on the AGW before it starts from 4000 rpms or rather it begins at a higher RPM
That's true here. I think I've seen difference with and without AGW, though, but still don't have quantitative data to show. Several postings back I mentioned something to that effect--without AGW wind down time around 15s while with AGW wind down time about 35s. That's an average of 5 trials. See, however, the previous figure--the dampers appear to make a noticeable difference. Haven't tried with dampers yet.
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 22, 2008, 04:42:44 PM
Actually it appears there is no difference between AGW and normal as there is a delay on the AGW before it starts from 4000 rpms or rather it begins at a higher RPM
On the last chart I agree.
What is interesting is the drop and increase when it latches.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 04:54:35 PM
however, the previous figure--the dampers appear to make a noticeable difference. Haven't tried with dampers yet.
Yep got to agree this is more interesting.
@Craigy,
I think @CLaNZeR said you've sent him the magnets. Do you happen to remember what grade they were? At least, are the stator and the rotor magnets of the same grade (say, N42)?
A reminder to the replicators from the original thread.
QuoteSeecond, not all magnet/bearing pairs will produce the effect. I have 15 of the magnets, and 13 of the bearings. I have not tried all possible combinations of these, obviously. But of the 13 assembled magnet/bearing pairs, 3 don't seem to work at all, 2 are fairly easy to get started, and the rest are somewhere in between. Even the "easy" ones usually require several tries before successful engagemen
QuoteThird, the relative height of the stator and rotor magnets seems important. I don't know if it's because of my particular geometry or whether it is critical to the effect itself, but the magnets shouldn't be in the same plane--that is, I am getting best results when the rotor magnets are rotating in a plane that is just slightly higher than the tops of the stator magnets, rather than down and centered vertically
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=7 (http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=7)
QuoteAnybody, Does anyone have a source for n30, n35 rotor magnets in europe? That link previously has a min order value a bit high and they don't post out of the US.
Hi Craigy,
Here's the one I posted a week ago or so:
http://www.monstermagnete.de/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Z06
They have N35, 6mm diam. (6.35mm would be a quarter inch) cylinder mags that are 13 mm long (12.7mm would be a half inch).
Just in case, here's a repost of the American mag companies that carry quarter inch diam. by half inch long N35s as well:
http://www.allstarmagnetics.com/magnets/rareearth_ndfeb.asp
http://www.armsmag.com/neodymium_stock_size.htm
@Clanzer,
Re. you graph, its very interesting to look at the blue line, with the hickups at the start, if only they are able to carry on. I guess the fall is when sync is lost.
I do not understand the purple (standard run down) time being linear, I would expect it to be curved because of air resistance at the higher RPMs.
I wonder if the saw tooth is the agitation of the stator?
Are the RPMs the rotor speed or stator?
Regards
Rob
Hi All, I ?m sure the vendor said they were n40 , but look more like n42?s to me. Anyway that link above has some nice n35?s. Will have to buy some of those when the missis isn?t looking.
Any way my stator mounting experiment has produced a few observations. First there is no rattle and the rig is practically silent. Second, The stators wll rotate gearwise along with rotor over an enormous speed range. I can stop the stators with the rotor at 1500 rpm and the stators will fire up on their own to go gearwise. So Bearing response , or the lack of it is important..
Hey Craigy,
I have ordered about 5 different sets of magnets, and I can simpathise with you.
All I hear is "not more flaming magnets" :D
Regards
Rob
@Any
That spike at the end of the graph is also on the 'no stator' test, does
anybody know the reason for it?
Quote from: vipond50 on January 22, 2008, 03:10:19 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 02:49:35 PM
Quote from: vipond50 on January 22, 2008, 02:01:14 PM
@Omnibus
What grade of bearing did u incorporated into your Stators? I recall u stated "R3", Was curious to what the runout is in the "Y" axis with the single bearing as per the Replication specification in your Rep.
Best Regards
Bill
Yes, indeed, the stator bearings are R3 unshielded. Don't understand what you want me to do. If you're curious about the wind down time, it's almost instantaneous. When spinning it by hand it makes 2-3 turns and stops. Let me know if you want me to try something else here.
Hello
No, No test requests from me, Sounds like the bearings are to loose (wobble). I found this with the R3 bearing. The R3 i believe is a ABEC - 1 grade (the lowest). I am switching to a ABEC - 5 or ABEC - 7. I found these bearings at for (Grade 7 -$11.57 each) and (Grade 5 - $6.30 each). From what I have reviewed the bearing that Al incorporated had to have been a 5 or better or else the wobble would be in the order of 0.080". This as U know is an important issue with this device. If to much run out the rotor and Stator (AGW) coupling will degrade very very quickly as U are witnessing currently due to the pitching of the bearing. That said I would recommend to look at a better grade of bearing.
Thanks for the reply
Best Regards
Bill
Hi Bill,
I ordered my Abec 7's yesterday afternoon. I pick them up tomorrow from Mike. They will cost just over $6.00 each. Ordered for the stators. They are the best. I also have him pricing some non magnetic types for us.
@ All,
Jason's, Hank's and my machined parts were finished today and are now in the mail to us. We should have them by Thursday or Friday. I also expect my N35's by then.
My first attempt will be with the Abec 7 stator bearings, and N35's. I have high hopes.
Some of you are extremely impatient and I wonder why? You have invested nothing and are not replicating. So, if this process takes several weeks or even several months, why should you care?
I, like Omnibus and others, am in no extreme hurry. We will work through the variables until we come across the proper combination.
Lastly, I wonder, if all of those magnets that Al had, I think he said 13, were all of the same strength. He did not know the exact type they were, just that they were "not as strong" as the stator magnets.
@ Rosphere
I got your package today. Many thanks! ;)
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: g4macdad on January 22, 2008, 05:49:12 PM
A reminder to the replicators from the original thread.QuoteSeecond, not all magnet/bearing pairs will produce the effect. I have 15 of the magnets, and 13 of the bearings. I have not tried all possible combinations of these, obviously. But of the 13 assembled magnet/bearing pairs, 3 don't seem to work at all, 2 are fairly easy to get started, and the rest are somewhere in between. Even the "easy" ones usually require several tries before successful engagemen
QuoteThird, the relative height of the stator and rotor magnets seems important. I don't know if it's because of my particular geometry or whether it is critical to the effect itself, but the magnets shouldn't be in the same plane--that is, I am getting best results when the rotor magnets are rotating in a plane that is just slightly higher than the tops of the stator magnets, rather than down and centered vertically
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=7 (http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=7)
So, by "working" he understand successful AGW engagement, not so much the appearance of the effect, right? I remained with the impression that the successful AGW latching guarantees the appearance of the effect. What do you think? If that's so I for one am in a good shape, I can achieve AGW quite readily. What remains is to get magnets with the proper magnetic field ratio.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 22, 2008, 07:36:30 PM
Quote from: g4macdad on January 22, 2008, 05:49:12 PM
A reminder to the replicators from the original thread.QuoteSeecond, not all magnet/bearing pairs will produce the effect. I have 15 of the magnets, and 13 of the bearings. I have not tried all possible combinations of these, obviously. But of the 13 assembled magnet/bearing pairs, 3 don't seem to work at all, 2 are fairly easy to get started, and the rest are somewhere in between. Even the "easy" ones usually require several tries before successful engagemen
QuoteThird, the relative height of the stator and rotor magnets seems important. I don't know if it's because of my particular geometry or whether it is critical to the effect itself, but the magnets shouldn't be in the same plane--that is, I am getting best results when the rotor magnets are rotating in a plane that is just slightly higher than the tops of the stator magnets, rather than down and centered vertically
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=7 (http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=7)
So, by "working" he understand successful AGW engagement, not so much the appearance of the effect, right? I remained with the impression that the successful AGW latching guarantees the appearance of the effect. What do you think? If that's so I for one am in a good shape, I can achieve AGW quite readily. What remains is to get magnets with the proper magnetic field ratio.
I believe the answer to that question is on that same page I linked at the bottom of my post.
My intention, though, was to point out that even with the same bearings and magnets he could only reproduce the effect with a small few. AL also mentioned the importance of keeping everything quite rigid early on in that thread.(I noticed how people have been using wild variations of his original design.) I think keeping things as close to the AL's as possible is critical in replication.
My 200 cents :P
Presumably we have all played with magnets and felt how when poles of the same type tend to 'slide' in a elliptical way away from the magnet held stationary. It also feels like there is some 'give' as the fields? come together or a 'bouncy' feel. Since most of the ways we take measurements of fields is static there is a tendency to think this that the 'give' between the poles is due to the magnetic gradient.
However we could theorise that not only does mass have inertia but so do magnetic fields.
Ok it is a mad idea and appolgise for posting this speculation here.
Quote from: btentzer on January 22, 2008, 07:33:23 PM
Hi Bill,
I ordered my Abec 7's yesterday afternoon. I pick them up tomorrow from Mike. They will cost just over $6.00 each. Ordered for the stators. They are the best. I also have him pricing some non magnetic types for us.
Hey Bruce,
Where are you getting ABEC7 bearings for $6? can you share a link or phone #?
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 22, 2008, 08:07:48 PM
Quote from: btentzer on January 22, 2008, 07:33:23 PM
Hi Bill,
I ordered my Abec 7's yesterday afternoon. I pick them up tomorrow from Mike. They will cost just over $6.00 each. Ordered for the stators. They are the best. I also have him pricing some non magnetic types for us.
Hey Bruce,
Where are you getting ABEC7 bearings for $6? can you share a link or phone #?
A & W Bearing & Supply Co.
(936) 564-4810
Ask for Mike. He is very aware of our project.
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: btentzer on January 22, 2008, 08:23:39 PM
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 22, 2008, 08:07:48 PM
Quote from: btentzer on January 22, 2008, 07:33:23 PM
Hi Bill,
I ordered my Abec 7's yesterday afternoon. I pick them up tomorrow from Mike. They will cost just over $6.00 each. Ordered for the stators. They are the best. I also have him pricing some non magnetic types for us.
Hey Bruce,
Where are you getting ABEC7 bearings for $6? can you share a link or phone #?
A & W Bearing & Supply Co.
(936) 564-4810
Ask for Mike. He is very aware of our project.
Cheers,
Bruce
For those wishing to experiment with added mass in their stator assembly, one way to do it might be to add the mass in the bearings themselves. This company sells ABEC 7 steel, sealed, skate bearings for $1.32 each:
http://www.edsbearings.com/prices.html
They also claim to sell ABEC 7 ceramic, sealed, bearings for $4.69 ea.
Here in the bleachers, I'm not at all convinced that more stator assembly mass is the way to go. There was a test published here several days ago that seemed to indicate that low mass stator assemblies (including bearings) actually allowed the effect to occur. According to it, they facilitate quicker accelerations and decelerations, which help the stator be in the optimum position to achieve rotor acceleration - and the least optimum position to achieve rotor deceleration. More mass would mean more consistant rpm, which would cause it to be easier to achieve AGW latching, but harder to achieve OU.
But... maybe that was wrong. If so, these seem to be relatively very good prices for very high precision bearings.
<edit> fixed run-on sentence
<edit again> fixed to make sense again after repair of run-on sentence :-[.
Again I am all for steady progress, but as ideas come and might be forgotten at a later stage I am putting it here for LATER consideration.
Steam engines have governors that let out steam when the pressure gets too big. How about having governors that raise and lower the magnets or the main disc according to its speed?
Quote from: PolyMatrix on January 22, 2008, 06:53:16 PM
@Any
That spike at the end of the graph is also on the 'no stator' test, does
anybody know the reason for it?
You took the words out of my mouth :D
Perhapse a glitch in the tacho as it records data at low speed ??
klicUK
Quote from: PolyMatrix on January 22, 2008, 10:21:31 PM
Again I am all for steady progress, but as ideas come and might be forgotten at a later stage I am putting it here for LATER consideration.
Steam engines have governors that let out steam when the pressure gets too big. How about having governors that raise and lower the magnets or the main disc according to its speed?
Interesting, but do u have any idea of the Engineering involved ? Even though this is 100 year old tech is would still be a huge Engineering feat.
Keep them Coming ;D
Regards
Bill
Regarding the spike at around 400 rpm I did ask him in an earlier post and he went back and checked the data.
Its most likely a bug in the tacho. If it was mechanical I don't think it would be so sharp.
@Bill - Rough sketch of idea
Though some vector analysis to understand the strength of material needed to cope with shearing forces would be needed and that I cannot do at the moment.
Hope the error in trying to post this the first time has not upset the database.
@Harvey - Thanks I thought it might be either some facet of friction or recording equipment.
ok, time for a little fun... :D
ever have days like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJJrjDI5xSQ
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 22, 2008, 05:21:55 PM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 22, 2008, 04:42:44 PM
Actually it appears there is no difference between AGW and normal as there is a delay on the AGW before it starts from 4000 rpms or rather it begins at a higher RPM
On the last chart I agree.
What is interesting is the drop and increase when it latches.
I suppose you are just adding energy into the system when you are initiating the agw stator.
I got the parts from the shop today. They look alright although the grove on rotor is a bit bigger then the magnet. Need to find ways to secure magnet. The stator magnet fits the holder I made just fine.
@dean_mcgowan
The chart is just winding down from speed achieved using Air Compressor.
@Hanker866
Just a thought but how about PTFE tape. The tape they use in plumbing to help seal joints.
@hanker886,
I wonder if you saw one of my earlier posts. I'm securing the rotor magnets by placing a business card sideways and press fitting the magnet into the groove. Seems to work very well.
Quote from: hanker886 on January 23, 2008, 01:32:17 AM
I got the parts from the shop today. They look alright although the grove on rotor is a bit bigger then the magnet. Need to find ways to secure magnet. The stator magnet fits the holder I made just fine.
I just used a 1 inch length of normal desktop scotch tape around the diameter of rotor magnet to wedge it in. Need a tighter fit use more tape. BTW.. In case you missed my previous post I warn you that high speeds with loose rotor magnets make very dangerous projectiles. I still can not find one of my magnets and there is a new dent in the wall.
humm... just thinking out loud.
Bessler007
mib HQ
Hi,
That glych in the graph at about the 300 RPM bliping up to about 700 range is present in all of the graphs if you are using a Shimpo DT-209 tach. At least everyone I know who has one has complained of it, including Steorn.
I called Shimpo and they didn't have a fix for it.
Never mind. It looks like I was the only one stupid enough to automatically open pictures.
Its time to bring back the "VORTEX MAGNET MOTOR" whaa ha ha ha ha haaaa .. (goes into mad scientist mode)
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=1453.0
Cheers
Dean
Posted by pcstru4 on the steorn forum
Quote
What I envisage is that the stator magnets having been mounted below the plane of the rotor magnets are lifting the rotor and relieving the vertical load on the bearings, resulting in a sudden loss of friction from the bearings. For this to work the amount of lift is critical - too much and the bearings will load up as the balls hit the top of the race, too little and the rotor won't lift, get it exactly right and it could be goodbye bearing friction. IMO a minimum of three stators are needed for this to balance the lift around the device and 'looser/slacker' bearings might be beneficial. It should be possible to reproduce this effect without having to achieve an AGW lock, by just spinning up the rotor and stopping the stators so that they are oscilating but not rotating, but the speed of the rotor will need to be high enough otherwise the vertical oscilation will become too large, it also needs to be slow enough for the oscilation to become large enough but a rotor running to fast will not be so bad as it should hit the zone at some point.. The revealing data is simply elongated winddown times from a fixed value RPM start or if your getting close, a change in accelleration (-) slope.
Certainly something to consider.
You have all been great and very fast in replicating the OC MPMM.
But what's the status at the moment?
Any success or positive results yet?
I'm asking because I don't have the time to read all 106 pages of messages.
Quote from: Ergo on January 23, 2008, 08:14:13 AM
You have all been great and very fast in replicating the OC MPMM.
But what's the status at the moment?
Any success or positive results yet?
I'm asking because I don't have the time to read all 106 pages of messages.
Nothing at all, despite attempts by several people using near-exact copies of Al's device.
It's almost certain that Al hoaxed people or was suffering a hallucination or delusion of some kind.
[/quote]
Indeed, the stator bearings wobble and I am concerned about it. Would be interesting to ask @alsetalokin about the importance of this wobble again. It seems he isn't too concerned about it. Nevertheless, will have to try it with a better grade bearings when the weaker rotor magnets arrive.
As for the AGW coupling, it seems that the wobbling doesn't matter. Once its latched it keeps going, that's what I'm observing so far.
[/quote]
absolutely agree for this term.
Deleted
Quote from: canam101 on January 23, 2008, 08:22:35 AM
Quote from: Ergo on January 23, 2008, 08:14:13 AM
You have all been great and very fast in replicating the OC MPMM.
But what's the status at the moment?
Any success or positive results yet?
I'm asking because I don't have the time to read all 106 pages of messages.
Nothing at all, despite attempts by several people using near-exact copies of Al's device.
It's almost certain that Al hoaxed people or was suffering a hallucination or delusion of some kind.
Although the near-exact copies physically appear to be correct there are still too many hidden variables, such as magnet strength + bearing field interaction + damper interaction, to jump to the conclusion that Al was hoaxing. There has been enough data collected to indicate that there is some strange magnetic interactions in the setup to warrant continued investigation. It may be what Al created was a strange fluke or it may be easier to get one working going a different path. It boils down to a little investigative research and a fair amount of time. Al still continues to provide feedback so that is a plus in his favor. Bottom line. Yesterday. Still no self running setup besides Al's. Today. Who knows. Tomorrow.. maybe.. Is it going to be easy.. Nope.. and that is the sad part of it. It would have been nice to throw it together and it worked.. Sadly it never seems to work that way. :'(
@Ergo,
Some, myself included, already have the mechanical parts and are already studying the rig. Others have parts still being manufactured or are just receiving them. So far no one has achieved the acceleration seen in the video although several of us have already observed peculiar behavior during wind down. To my knowledge, no one so far has a device with rotor magnets weaker than the stator ones which is a major factor spelled out by the constructor. Therefore, it is premature to assert that replicators have already made sufficiently accurate replicas of the original device. Thus, my next step is to study this factor so I've already ordered magnets with two grades down and will report the outcome as soon as these magnets arrive. Even then it cannot be asserted that the device has been reproduced accurately because it is the proper interaction of the fields that is what causes the phenomenon to appear and reproducing this is much more difficult than just mechanical copying of the parts of the device. So there's still more research ahead. It very well may be that the original constructor is meeting difficulties in reproducing his own data as has happened numerous times before in this field because of the complexity of the magnetic phenomena. One prominent example for this difficulty staying in the way of a successful experiment is Tokamak which has been explored for probably over half a century, billions have been invested in it with no results in sight due mainly to the complications caused by the magnetic field.
Reproducing earlier results is a major requirement when doing scientific research and sometimes it takes years even decades to achieve satisfactory results. Anyone who has worked towards his or her PhD knows that. Of course, such results are published in peer-reviewed literature and the authors have a clear affiliation which makes the likelihood of fraud less expected. Nevertheless, cases have been known when authors have published fraudulent results in most prestigious journals especially regarding claims with substantial contribution for science. Not to say that huge amount of peer-reviewed publications are purely marginal and only cause pollution.
This case obviously differs in the way it was communicated. Many would consider this way more prone to abuse although others would point to the fact that this way of communication allows more detailed and prompt exchange with the author (if he doesn't disappear as it usually happens, this case being an exception so far). Of course, major factor to cause suspicion is the anonymity of the author but that's the nature of this type of communication. I should add that physical reproduction of this device is much simpler than in most cases during normal research in established institutions and when adding to it the fact that possibility to violate of CoE has already been proven beyond doubt tips the scales towards continuing the exploration, expecting a positive outcome. This motor follows the general principles such motors are based on so there's no novelty in that respect but the seeming simplicity of the design reducing the factors to study appears more convenient to explore, especially at a low budget level. These factors also make it more promising in the short term than other constructions.
@Omnibus
Good reply.
I'll await the final result and hopefully self running replica.
Quote from: Ergo on January 23, 2008, 08:14:13 AM
You have all been great and very fast in replicating the OC MPMM.
But what's the status at the moment?
Any success or positive results yet?
I'm asking because I don't have the time to read all 106 pages of messages.
The following is what I have compiled at http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications
Successful
- Sean CLaNZeR's replication of the OC MPMM Magnet Motor (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:CLaNZeR) - Using a temporary stator magnet configuration, awaiting arrival of the proper stator magnets, Sean CLaNZeR showed brief acceleration in his replication of "Overconfident's" all-magnet motor built by Al... As far as we can tell, this marks the first successful replication of the effect to any extent. (PESWiki; Jan 14, 2008)
- vipond50's replication of the MPMM Magnet Motor (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:vipond50) - "Today after reconfiguration of the Stator magnets to a dual bearings, I had a approximately one minute self operation of the device and maintained a constant RPM once Stator Sync occurred." (PESWiki; Jan. 19, 2008)
- OS:MPMM:Replications:AuthoroldHorseface (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:AuthoroldHorseface) - reports "a short burst of acceleration, then a sustained speed for 10 seconds" (Jan. 14, 2008)
- Omnibus' Replication of the MPMM (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:omnibus) - "After the initial spin, a definite acceleration is observed, which so far still cannot be sustained as long as alsetalonkin's but the effect is definitely there." (Jan. 16, 2008)
In particular, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZPI5BwccsA
Unless these statements were not intended to mean what they imply, to me they describe at least a small degree of success in four separate cases.
Sterling
Sterling,
Do you think that it is possible that COE may be violated?
Cheers,
Dean
Quote from: sterlinga on January 23, 2008, 12:15:58 PM
Unless these statements were not intended to mean what they imply, to me they describe at least a small degree of success in four separate cases.
Sterling
I suggest changing the wording to "A degree of success"
Quote from: RunningBare on January 23, 2008, 07:18:53 AM
Posted by pcstru4 on the steorn forum
Quote
What I envisage is that the stator magnets having been mounted below the plane of the rotor magnets are lifting the rotor and relieving the vertical load on the bearings, resulting in a sudden loss of friction from the bearings. For this to work the amount of lift is critical - too much and the bearings will load up as the balls hit the top of the race, too little and the rotor won't lift, get it exactly right and it could be goodbye bearing friction. IMO a minimum of three stators are needed for this to balance the lift around the device and 'looser/slacker' bearings might be beneficial. It should be possible to reproduce this effect without having to achieve an AGW lock, by just spinning up the rotor and stopping the stators so that they are oscilating but not rotating, but the speed of the rotor will need to be high enough otherwise the vertical oscilation will become too large, it also needs to be slow enough for the oscilation to become large enough but a rotor running to fast will not be so bad as it should hit the zone at some point.. The revealing data is simply elongated winddown times from a fixed value RPM start or if your getting close, a change in accelleration (-) slope.
Certainly something to consider.
Hey RB,
But that d*mned acceleration, what will account for that?
That is the big mystery that keeps me interested.
@All,
Does anyone of these replications have quantitative results (sorry OB) to support the acceleration claim ?
Cheers,
Dean
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 23, 2008, 01:05:32 PM
Hey RB,
But that d*mned acceleration, what will account for that?
That is the big mystery that keeps me interested.
Well, I had a long boring reply for you about less friction at the right moment, but on trying to post I got the usual
Lost connection to MySQL server during query
Warning: mysql_query(): supplied argument is not a valid MySQL-Link resource in /mounted-storage/home71c/sub001/sc11940-GNVW/overunity/Sources/Subs.php on line 321
Warning: mysql_error(): supplied argument is not a valid MySQL-Link resource in /mounted-storage/home71c/sub001/sc11940-GNVW/overunity/Sources/Errors.php on line 123
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I cannot be arsed to type it all out again.
RB
Hitting the back button usually retrieves it for me.
Unless your using a DOS based browser :S
Cheers,
Dean
PolyMatrix,
Thanks for the advice. I will try different tapes. Electrical tape might be good too.
Omnibus,
Yes, I will try biz card too. Thanks
I am also thinking to use side screws to tighten the magnets.
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 23, 2008, 01:05:32 PM
Hey RB,
But that d*mned acceleration, what will account for that?
That is the big mystery that keeps me interested.
Most likely some external source not seen in the dimly lit close cropped video.
Speculation: As Ice skaters pull their arms in to speed up it could be some magnetic form of this.
Quote from: PolyMatrix on January 23, 2008, 01:31:13 PM
Speculation: As Ice skaters pull their arms in to speed up it could be some magnetic form of this.
Thats a great idea !!
@hanker886
I was thinking along the lines of keeping everything balanced, with tape or card you could make sure you use the same amount for each.
Quote from: PolyMatrix on January 23, 2008, 01:31:13 PM
Speculation: As Ice skaters pull their arms in to speed up it could be some magnetic form of this.
Conservation of momentum, this is just one of the theories that has been discussed on the Steorn forum, but if it is CoM, its pretty impressive CoM for 7.5 hours.
Quote from: PolyMatrix on January 23, 2008, 01:31:13 PM
Speculation: As Ice skaters pull their arms in to speed up it could be some magnetic form of this.
Yes I have seen this idea proposed, that the whole unit acts as if it is a flywheel of a much larger size then it appears, and when stopping the two other stators, the effective size of this flywheel has shrunk, and through the conservation of angular momentum, the unit speeds up.
Seems elegant and appealing, wish we could test the idea.
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 23, 2008, 01:28:28 PM
RB
Hitting the back button usually retrieves it for me.
Unless your using a DOS based browser :S
Cheers,
Dean
Nah, with all the cash Steff makes from the adverts on this site he should improve the server with more thread connections as well.
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 23, 2008, 01:01:17 PM
Sterling,
Do you think that it is possible that COE may be violated?
Hi Dean,
I personally believe that any legitimate energy modality is harvesting energy from SOMEWHERE. If this is in keeping with the law of conservation of energy, then count me a believer.
Just because magnet motors appear to pull energy from NOWHERE, doesn't mean that that is actually what is happening. An aborigine viewing a radio would consider that pretty magical -- sound coming from a box, transmitted through the air. But you and I know how that works. It's not magical at all.
Similarly, I think once a magnet motor can be proven, the science will not be far behind to show where the energy is coming from; devising a new set of laws to account for this new discovery.
Sterling
@Jdo300,
As far as I remember @btentzer posted this link http://www.geocities.com/deasyart/steorn/OC_sim_one_stator_a.JPG with results of a simulation. I don't know who did it. Were you able to reproduce it and if so is it possible to show the results with different rotor to stator magnetic field strengths, especially the cutoff ratio whereby the effect disappears?
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 23, 2008, 01:05:32 PM
But that d*mned acceleration, what will account for that?
That is the big mystery that keeps me interested.
Me too. Until I had this dreadful thought: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3949.msg72401#msg72401 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3949.msg72401#msg72401)
Quote from: Omnibus on January 23, 2008, 03:20:58 PM
@Jdo300,
As far as I remember @btentzer posted this link http://www.geocities.com/deasyart/steorn/OC_sim_one_stator_a.JPG with results of a simulation. I don't know who did it. Were you able to reproduce it and if so is it possible to show the results with different rotor to stator magnetic field strengths, especially the cutoff ratio whereby the effect disappears?
Not sure what you're referring to there. It seems that the link you mentioned doesn't work. But as far as simulations go. I have done a few basic ones to get a rough idea of what is happening but they are, for the moment, completely useless since it seems that the rotation of the stator is far from linear. Once we can take some emperical measurements to characterize the rotation of the stator magnets with respect to the rotor, then I can write a Lua script to exactly imitate the stator motion. until then, I havnen't really gotten to deep with the sims yet.
By the way, has anyone come up with a good, nonobtrusive way to measure the velocity of the stator magnets? so far the best I've see are coils, but I'm trying to think of a way to do it that wont drag on the magnets.
God Bless,
Jason O
@Jdo300,
Strange the link doesn't open where you are. Works good with me. I wonder if @btentzer remembers who did this simulation to learn more details about it. Main thing is to see how important the stator to rotor magnetic field ratio is. As for the stator speed, isn't the laser tachometer good for that purpose? Mine hasn't arrived yet to try it.
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 23, 2008, 03:51:24 PM
By the way, has anyone come up with a good, nonobtrusive way to measure the velocity of the stator magnets? so far the best I've see are coils, but I'm trying to think of a way to do it that wont drag on the magnets.
God Bless,
Jason O
A hall effects sensor is one way to do it, but the simplest method I believe has already been mentioned is a laser tachometer , what I would add is painting vertical lines on the stator magnet at regular intervals, lots of them, this way you would be able to measure change over a single cycle.
Quote from: PolyMatrix on January 23, 2008, 01:31:13 PM
Speculation: As Ice skaters pull their arms in to speed up it could be some magnetic form of this.
To make that work, a skater has to pull her arms in. If you cut them off, she doesn't go any faster.
Quote from: Rosphere on January 23, 2008, 03:51:23 PM
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 23, 2008, 01:05:32 PM
But that d*mned acceleration, what will account for that?
That is the big mystery that keeps me interested.
Me too. Until I had this dreadful thought: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3949.msg72401#msg72401 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3949.msg72401#msg72401)
I saw that when you posted but I was not sure of what to make of it, to answer your questions...
Will the flywheel accelerate? I think Yes.
Will the flywheel continue to run indefinitely? I think No.
But I am not sure how you relate this back to the device.
I have transferred my inappropriate post to http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3574.new#new (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3574.new#new)
All the best,
FunkyJive
Quote from: FunkyJive on January 23, 2008, 05:03:34 PM
QuoteDo you think that it is possible that COE may be violated?
..I am totally convinced that even now it is not possible to argue that conventional energy cannot be yielded by conversion of unconventional universal sources that even today we do not understand.
FunkyJive
Well said, FunkyJive. It is merely a lack of our understanding. When we do understand, it will be easy. People will look back on the 20th century as a bunch of idiots, burning oil for power when there is limitless power around us, ready to be tapped.
Please keep this thread clean of discussing violation of CoE. That CoE can be violated has already been categorically proven but this thread is just about the technical issues connected with reproducing @alsetalokin's device. There are other threads where you can get an insight regarding the proved violation of CoE.
My post was inspired by discussions as to what may be causing the motor to run (notably - electromagnetism), and where the energy may be coming from. I didn't mean to suggest violation of CoE, but merely that there may be reasoning attached to magnetic forces involved with this device as a potential energy source that's not adequately considered in conventional science.
My apologies Omnibus, et al :-[
FunkyJive
@Jason,
I think the best way to monitor the dynamic rotation of the stator is to use the optical encoder wheel from a mouse mounted atop the stator.
You can even use the sensor from the mouse with the wheel and no drag.
Regards
Rob
Hello All,
I have received my N35 magnets today and did my separation test, in a clear tube. I tested six times, three times with one pair of magnets and three times with another pair of magnets.
N35 Separation:
28.5 mm = N35 magnets
Al's Separation:
30.5 mm = ?
N42 Separation:
34 mm = N42
I think N37 or N38 are the next ones to order and test.
@ Omni
Did you order either of these sizes? Has anyone else?
My bearings did not arrive today, hopefully tomorrow. Also my machined parts should arrive by Friday.
@ Clanzer
I am interested in you damper test when you have received the identical material that Al used for dampers. If there turns out to be a difference between Al's material, and the Aluminum we are all using, we will need to switch this to the same material as well.
Cheers,
Bruce
@btentzer,
I ordered both N38 and N35 but am still waiting for them to arrive. The observation you present is very interesting. We should really try to keep the parameters as in the original.
On another note, do you know who made this simulation. If I remember correctly you posted it at one time: http://www.geocities.com/deasyart/steorn/OC_sim_one_stator_a.JPG What I'm curious is what is the stator to rotor field strength ratio used and at what ratio the effect ceases to appear.
@btentzer,
Can you measure the separation between NN as well as SS. There's a difference with mine. Recall also the data I posted several pages back, the kgauss weren't the same on both poles.
does anyone know a simple way to make the 3 stators? :-\
i haven't a clue right now....
Quote from: Omnibus on January 23, 2008, 07:24:26 PM
@btentzer,
I ordered both N38 and N35 but am still waiting for them to arrive. The observation you present is very interesting. We should really try to keep the parameters as in the original.
On another note, do you know who made this simulation. If I remember correctly you posted it at one time: http://www.geocities.com/deasyart/steorn/OC_sim_one_stator_a.JPG What I'm curious is what is the stator to rotor field strength ratio used and at what ratio the effect ceases to appear.
Sorry, I can not remember. I saw it on one of the many Steorn threads about the OCAL Motor.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 23, 2008, 08:30:30 PM
@btentzer,
Can you measure the separation between NN as well as SS. There's a difference with mine. Recall also the data I posted several pages back, the kgauss weren't the same on both poles.
I am not sure the "practical" way to do the requested test. Give me a guide line and I will give it a go in my next spare moments.
Cheers,
Bruce
@btentzer,
Schematically it should be like this:
Measure the separation in this way first
S
|
|
|
N
separation to be measured
N
|
|
|
S
and then this way
N
|
|
|
S
separation to be measured
S
|
|
|
N
With my magnets which are supposedly N42 the first measurement gives something on the order of 27mm while the second measurement gives 33mm for the same pair of magnets.
Gotcha. Thanks!
I will post it tomorrow evening. Right now my paint is drying. I painted all of the North half's. ;)
Cheers,
Bruce
Not sure if anyone noticed:
ALSETALOKIN
Can you spell it backwards? :D
::)
Quote from: georgemay on January 23, 2008, 10:14:56 PM
Not sure if anyone noticed:
ALSETALOKIN
Can you spell it backwards? :D
Nope & Nope
Daaaa ;D
Hi Omni,
Never thought of trying the two different orientations.
I will do the same test and show the results.
I have N42 1/4"OD x 1/2" rods and N38 6mm OD x 2mm discs (6 of these to make up the 1/2" - almost).
N38 spacing was about 28mm but I will do all the tests again and ask Al to do the same.
Also I will do the stator to rotor magnet test, Al did this too but could not remove the bearing.
Regards
Rob
Hi,
I have not studied all the pages over here,
but what I have seen so far and from my own experience
a pure permanent magnet motor with just permanent magnets
without iron in it will not work.
I don?t know, if Al?s video is a fake or not,
but seeing his second video, where he throws
his dissassembled motor into the trash bin
makes me wonder, what character he really is...
For those of you, who have the magnets now and parts,
maybe you can now easily convert this to a Helmut Goebkes
type motor,
which I posted sticky over here,
as I think this still is the only way how to get a permanent magnet
motor working with the right amount of iron metal in it:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3979.0.html
??? ??? ???
Quote from: hartiberlin on January 24, 2008, 06:24:13 AM
(snip)
For those of you, who have the magnets now and parts,
maybe you can now easily convert this to a Helmut Goebkes
type motor,
(snip)
??? ???
With all due respect Stefan, if after 6 months, working on this, and no one sees anything of interest, nor any acceleration, nor any continued running with increased times, I would move on.
But people have already seen the above and many of us are just now getting our parts. No one has the correct rotor magnets, yet, IMHO.
So to think of taking all of our equipment, that cost a chunk of change and starting another project with it, at this time, makes no sense to me.
I read what you wrote at youtube about this motor, and I know that you think it is faked, but I do not, for too many reasons to list here first thing in the morning.
Warm regards,
Bruce
OCMPMM Alsetalokin Third Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i32ef88sRlg
More info:
http://overunity.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=90.0
Cheers
Sean.
Wow! that is huge!
Thought I'd drop out of lurker mode and throw a couple of pennies in.
From that video, it seems somewhat obvious to me that the rotor is pulling at and then pushing against the stator to gain it's motion. I think that the amount of friction in the stator bearings are probably the most important factor. If the stators spin too easily, then the magnetic interaction between the rotor and the stator will simply effect the speed of the stator, and have little effect on the rotor. However if the stator has a certain amount of friction, then the rotor will get pushed around a bit by the stator.
I think the optimal setup would be to have as much friction in the stator as possible, while still being able to sync up AWG with the rotor. This will allow the rotor to pull/push against the stator without putting all the force of the magnetic interaction into effecting the stator speed only.
Have any of you talented replicators considered devising a way to adjust the friction on the stators to control how easily they spin?
Best of luck all you replicators (no Stargate reference intended).
Won't the dampers play this role, automatically adding in drag when things want to speed up? and at the same time adding no drag at low speeds to allow startup?
I have noticed that if the Stator Magnets are 1/2 inch then the Rotor magnets are longer. Look over pictures and judge for yourself :-\... to me they look like a mm size or they are 5/8 inch long, which could make much difference.
Luc
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 24, 2008, 12:51:18 PM
Won't the dampers play this role, automatically adding in drag when things want to speed up? and at the same time adding no drag at low speeds to allow startup?
I guess the dampers do help, but only after the unit already gets the effect ('the effect' being acceleration of the rotor). Al said that the dampers are there because the rotor/stator speeds up too much and then loses sync (we should have such a problem ;) ). My thought is that adjusting the friction in the stators may help to get the effect to start with. I actually think some of the replicators are too good at what they do, and might have trouble getting things working because their stators spin too freely.
Looks to me like the stator magnets are just above the rod magnets, which would be in keeping with some the conclusions I had while testing out some ideas with magnets. The stator magnet in my theory has its bottom edge just above the top edge of the rod magnet.
Edit Also concerned that whether the rod magnets are precisely cantered. It would only take 0.25mm to be significant.
Yet another interesting piece of information. I was hoping Al would show additional information. At least he looks to still be in the game. From viewing the video it looks like you could almost gear this effect. I wonder if a small (1/6 inch) wide rubber friction idle wheel between the rotor and the stator would work ? Maybe someone here can calculate out the needed diameter for a 'gearing' wheel. Might be worth a shot. Maybe a ecenteric wheel to give the proper effect.
Oh please .. is he really going to drip feed you guys like steorn did .. god .. you would think people would be a little more wise to this ploy .. ewwww
Well - so much for the 'stator deceleration at critical points' theory. The rotor and stator look as if they are connected with a gear or a belt. And as I pause the video and look at the relationships between the magnets - I don't understand what would cause the rotor to accelerate. At that stator speed of over 4,200 rpm the other two stators must be stopped. Presuming that the other two stators break even in push and pull, what is there about this one relationship that would cause the rotor to accelerate if not for the dampers? Actually, I would expect the entire system to slow down - not speed up. Try freeze framing and ask yourself what magnetic forces are currently in play. Do you see any way for the rotor to do any better than break even? I'm consused.
Going to increase rotor mass next
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Oq-frOyIVI
QuoteDo you see any way for the rotor to do any better than break even? I'm consused.
I am sure by the end of he day someone will Femm this out and may help with any confusion. Of course it may just add the the confusion.
@hydrocontrol,
Speaking of femm we have to find out who did the simulation @btentzer cited once: http://www.geocities.com/deasyart/steorn/OC_sim_one_stator_a.JPG . Especially interesting is to know what the stator to rotor magnetic field strength ratio is in this simulation and what that ratio is for the effect to disappear. It's very important to clarify the problem with the right magnetic induction of the stators and the rotor before getting into the friction issues.
@CLaNZeR,
Very informative video indeed. It seems, however, that in @alsealokin's video the dampers are not equidistant from the stator. Could you try the same strobo thing but with one damper father from the stator than the other?
@dean_mcgowan,
Drip feeding is OK since it may very well be that he himself hasn't paid attention to these details and has hit upon this effect only by accident as he seems to present the whole thing. I bet it isn't at all certain that even he himself would be able to reproduce his own creation if he were to start from scratch, ordering all these parts and magnets. Therefore, asking him to clarify the various aspects is also helping him to understand better what he's done.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 24, 2008, 12:19:01 PM
OCMPMM Alsetalokin Third Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i32ef88sRlg
More info:
http://overunity.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=90.0
Cheers
Sean.
New video, new questions.
Have a look at the upper dampner.
(attached is one frame of Al's 3rd video)
Looks like an extra magnet?
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 24, 2008, 01:51:36 PM
Oh please .. is he really going to drip feed you guys like steorn did .. god .. you would think people would be a little more wise to this ploy .. ewwww
What else is there to do all day.. ??? Guess we could trade arguments with Omni but that gets tiresome.. :'( ::) Could build a TPU but then the world would collapse from the power draw :-\ At least this is somewhat fun to do... Who knows it might produce something... but than again not.. sure Al may be yanking our chain... At least Al feed us something.. ;D My thinking (at the moment) is Al actually built something that works and even he can not replicate or figure out why it works. So if you where Al what would you do if you could not replicate and you had the ONLY working system. ::) Ebay a variable strobe. make a movie. post it. Hope someone else can figure it out and come up with a better method. Sure he could post a few more movies of his working system but I am not sure if it would help replication. At least the strobe movie shows rotor/stator interaction so that is useful info. More useful than another movie of it spinning. Still I would like to see another movie of it spinning.
QuoteNew video, new questions.
Have a look at the upper dampener.
(attached is one frame of the 3rd video)
Looks like an extra magnet?
The crucial missing piece of data: the dampers are attached with a golf tee! New theory: kinetic energy from the blue tees of 18 holes is somehow being stored, as potential, in the golf ball tee and then released at just the right moment to propel the rotor forward. More Mulligans: longer rotor runs. New unknowns? Manufacture of driver. Is effect more pronounced with a Big Bertha? Are graphite shafts somehow involved? Can effect be duplicated without leather grips?
@All,
It wouldn't be a bad idea to limit somehow the silly comments and focus on the replication.
@all
It would be interesting to attach 2 electric motors, one on the rotor and one on the stator, then make them run.
For example, the one connected to the rotor running at fixed speed, while the stator at variable speed. By changing the speed of rotation gradually, one could detect when less and less energy is requested to run the engines until finding the correct speeds for the auto-rotation.
This method would replace thousands of manual spins and could lead to a result in minutes.
What do you think? ???
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 02:56:17 PM
@All,
It wouldn't be a bad idea to limit somehow the silly comments and focus on the replication.
You're right Big O. After watching that video, I'm in a silly mood. I'll try to keep it to myself.
Quote from: niente on January 24, 2008, 03:04:55 PM
@all
It would be interesting to attach 2 electric motors, one on the rotor and one on the stator, then make them run.
For example, the one connected to the rotor running at fixed speed, while the stator at variable speed. By changing the speed of rotation gradually, one could detect when less and less energy is requested to run the engines until finding the correct speeds for the auto-rotation.
This method would replace thousands of manual spins and could lead to a result in minutes.
What do you think? ???
The thought has crossed my mind as well.
Crucial thing to do then is to monitor the current drawn by these motors, to see significant change.
However there is a phase relation between rotor and stator.
That's not easy to manage with two independant motors to drive such rigs
[Edit] A slight variation on this theme would be to only drive the rotor with a DC motor while monitoring its current, while the stator is manually put into AGW sync with the rotor.
Next then would be to vary the rotor speed and/or change the mechanical position of the stator.
Quote from: robbie47 on January 24, 2008, 03:11:19 PM
Quote from: niente on January 24, 2008, 03:04:55 PM
@all
It would be interesting to attach 2 electric motors, one on the rotor and one on the stator, then make them run.
For example, the one connected to the rotor running at fixed speed, while the stator at variable speed. By changing the speed of rotation gradually, one could detect when less and less energy is requested to run the engines until finding the correct speeds for the auto-rotation.
This method would replace thousands of manual spins and could lead to a result in minutes.
What do you think? ???
The thought has crossed my mind as well.
Crucial thing to do then is to monitor the current drawn by these motors, to see significant change.
However there is a phase relation between rotor and stator.
That's not easy to manage with two independant motors to drive such rigs
To my mind, the best way would be to spin the rotor like Lumen did, (but I would use pulleys, not direct drive) and then keep tweaking the stator / damper variables looking for those sweet spots that lighten the load as you guys mentioned...
Quote from: robbie47 on January 24, 2008, 03:11:19 PM
Quote from: niente on January 24, 2008, 03:04:55 PM
@all
It would be interesting to attach 2 electric motors, one on the rotor and one on the stator, then make them run.
For example, the one connected to the rotor running at fixed speed, while the stator at variable speed. By changing the speed of rotation gradually, one could detect when less and less energy is requested to run the engines until finding the correct speeds for the auto-rotation.
This method would replace thousands of manual spins and could lead to a result in minutes.
What do you think? ???
The thought has crossed my mind as well.
Crucial thing to do then is to monitor the current drawn by these motors, to see significant change.
However there is a phase relation between rotor and stator.
That's not easy to manage with two independant motors to drive such rigs
IMHO not a good test, if this device really works, then there is a symbiotic relationship between rotor and stator, each keeping the other in check so to speak, adding motors to them is the same as putting a leash on them, you see, you can spin the motors upto 1250 for rotor and 5000 for stator, but how are you going to get them to sync? its the motors now in control not the rotor and stator.
Quote from: RunningBare on January 24, 2008, 03:24:38 PM
Quote from: robbie47 on January 24, 2008, 03:11:19 PM
Quote from: niente on January 24, 2008, 03:04:55 PM
@all
It would be interesting to attach 2 electric motors, one on the rotor and one on the stator, then make them run.
For example, the one connected to the rotor running at fixed speed, while the stator at variable speed. By changing the speed of rotation gradually, one could detect when less and less energy is requested to run the engines until finding the correct speeds for the auto-rotation.
This method would replace thousands of manual spins and could lead to a result in minutes.
What do you think? ???
The thought has crossed my mind as well.
Crucial thing to do then is to monitor the current drawn by these motors, to see significant change.
However there is a phase relation between rotor and stator.
That's not easy to manage with two independant motors to drive such rigs
IMHO not a good test, if this device really works, then there is a symbiotic relationship between rotor and stator, each keeping the other in check so to speak, adding motors to them is the same as putting a leash on them, you see, you can spin the motors upto 1250 for rotor and 5000 for stator, but how are you going to get them to sync? its the motors now in control not the rotor and stator.
IMHO RB, there are no bad tests.... if it yields data and results even if negative then it's a good test.
After watching the third Alsetalokin video, things are quite clear. Now that we know how the stator rotates towards the rotor, it's easy to calculate the speed ratio between the two, that is EXACTLY 4:1. So in my opinion it is only a matter of speed. The device must rotate at a speed that makes the rotor and the stator inertia to have enough momentum to continue the motion.
I think that attaching 2 engines to rotor and stator could be a great idea to create the initial conditions (by just setting the right RPM and direction on both engines, then detaching them suddenly). The rotor should be set at least at 1200-1400 RPM, and consequently the stator at 4800-5600 RPM). ;D
Obviously the initial position of magnets should reflect the correct one shown in the Al video (if we consider it genuine), and stators should not be too light...
Quote from: geodan on January 24, 2008, 03:30:22 PM
Quote from: RunningBare on January 24, 2008, 03:24:38 PM
IMHO not a good test, if this device really works, then there is a symbiotic relationship between rotor and stator, each keeping the other in check so to speak, adding motors to them is the same as putting a leash on them, you see, you can spin the motors upto 1250 for rotor and 5000 for stator, but how are you going to get them to sync? its the motors now in control not the rotor and stator.
IMHO RB, there are no bad tests.... if it yields data and results even if negative then it's a good test.
I agree with you, so long as false measurements can be ruled out.
Perhaps one way to reduce this would be to only motorize one at a time, leaving the other free to do its thing.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 02:56:17 PM
@All,
It wouldn't be a bad idea to limit somehow the silly comments and focus on the replication.
To use your double negative, it would not be a bad idea to not insult everyone that has an idea different from yours, Omnibus. In the short time I've been here, I have seen Omnibus insult too many people, spouting that "we are here to focus on the replication, nothing else!" To encourage people in this thread to ONLY try for a strict replication may have it's merits, but to instantly shut out any and all other ideas and label any as "worthless" is very narrow minded. If Al is throwing his in the trash, it may not be best to "replicate".
We have a special group of people here, and to do anything to INHIBIT people expressing their ideas is counterproductive. We are here to share everything, and work together. We are here to find out not only what works, but what doesn't work. We are here to share knowledge, and to learn new things. Let us do it.
DA
Quote from: RunningBare on January 24, 2008, 03:38:38 PM
Quote from: geodan on January 24, 2008, 03:30:22 PM
Quote from: RunningBare on January 24, 2008, 03:24:38 PM
IMHO not a good test, if this device really works, then there is a symbiotic relationship between rotor and stator, each keeping the other in check so to speak, adding motors to them is the same as putting a leash on them, you see, you can spin the motors upto 1250 for rotor and 5000 for stator, but how are you going to get them to sync? its the motors now in control not the rotor and stator.
IMHO RB, there are no bad tests.... if it yields data and results even if negative then it's a good test.
I agree with you, so long as false measurements can be ruled out.
Perhaps one way to reduce this would be to only motorize one at a time, leaving the other free to do its thing.
that's my thinking too... spin up the rotor and let the stator do it's thang...
Another thought is that all that acceleration deceleration of the rotor that we've been hearing about might just be due to slight irregularity of placement of the rotor magnets...
What puzzles me in @CLaNZeR's third video is the fact that the stator seems to turn uniformly. Try to spin the rotor slowly and watch the stators. Each one has moments of arrest in between spinning, at that not synchronously for the three stators. Probably at high speeds some averaging of the fields occurs which makes the spin of the stator smoother and yet keeping it AGW.
Quote from: geodan on January 24, 2008, 03:22:34 PM
Quote from: robbie47 on January 24, 2008, 03:11:19 PM
Quote from: niente on January 24, 2008, 03:04:55 PM
@all
It would be interesting to attach 2 electric motors, one on the rotor and one on the stator, then make them run.
For example, the one connected to the rotor running at fixed speed, while the stator at variable speed. By changing the speed of rotation gradually, one could detect when less and less energy is requested to run the engines until finding the correct speeds for the auto-rotation.
This method would replace thousands of manual spins and could lead to a result in minutes.
What do you think? ???
The thought has crossed my mind as well.
Crucial thing to do then is to monitor the current drawn by these motors, to see significant change.
However there is a phase relation between rotor and stator.
That's not easy to manage with two independant motors to drive such rigs
To my mind, the best way would be to spin the rotor like Lumen did, (but I would use pulleys, not direct drive) and then keep tweaking the stator / damper variables looking for those sweet spots that lighten the load as you guys mentioned...
Yes, from the latest Alsetalokin video it's clear that the rotor and stator are in AGW lock step with each other. Apparent out of phase relationships between the magnets don't seem to hinder the effect in the least. You would arrange for the rotational relationship between the rotor and stator (more or less 1:4) to be constant in the gearing - and then use the video as a guide to position the two in correct sync with each other.
One thing I wonder about, though, is whether a dynamic timing advancement adjustment would be necessary as the speed increases. In order for the effect to operate as the video suggests that it does, some sort of magnetic lag between the fields (due to their spinning?) would seem to have to be taking place. It's too bad that Al didn't take stroboscopic video at more than one speed so that we could see the 'gear' relationship over a range to see if it changes. (Poor Al. Somebody is always wishing he had done more...)
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 03:57:55 PM
What puzzles me in @CLaNZeR's third video is the fact that the stator seems to turn uniformly. Try to spin the rotor slowly and watch the stators. Each one has moments of arrest in between spinning, at that not synchronously for the three stators. Probably at high speeds some averaging of the fields occurs which makes the spin of the stator smoother and yet keeping it AGW.
This is right, but I think that the lack of irregularities in rotation are due to the momentum gained by both magnets (remember they're running at high speed). The irregular motion effect is visible only when they have almost no momentum (=slow speeds).
QuotePoor Al. Somebody is always wishing he had done more...
I think he's done enough so far for someone who has stumbled by chance on an effect, provided he continues to cooperate so that we can all help in clarifying the conditions for the phenomenon to be reproduced (and not cooperate for a while to wet the appetite and then suddenly disappear as that famous Mike in the Bedini replication thread, if you happen to remember him).
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 03:57:55 PM
What puzzles me in @CLaNZeR's third video is the fact that the stator seems to turn uniformly. Try to spin the rotor slowly and watch the stators. Each one has moments of arrest in between spinning, at that not synchronously for the three stators. Probably at high speeds some averaging of the fields occurs which makes the spin of the stator smoother and yet keeping it AGW.
@ Omni:
At high speeds the stators act like small flywheels and therefore avaraging more than at low speed, don't you think?
Looks like the field strenght values are extreemly critical here.
Quote from: niente on January 24, 2008, 04:04:01 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 03:57:55 PM
What puzzles me in @CLaNZeR's third video is the fact that the stator seems to turn uniformly. Try to spin the rotor slowly and watch the stators. Each one has moments of arrest in between spinning, at that not synchronously for the three stators. Probably at high speeds some averaging of the fields occurs which makes the spin of the stator smoother and yet keeping it AGW.
This is right, but I think that the lack of irregularities in rotation are due to the momentum gained by both magnets (remember they're running at high speed). The effect is visible only when they have almost no momentum (=slow speeds).
I agree. The thing is, probably there should be some conditions created for a slight dis-balance while utilizing this uniformity of spin at high speeds for the effect to kick in.
Quote from: robbie47 on January 24, 2008, 04:06:05 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 03:57:55 PM
What puzzles me in @CLaNZeR's third video is the fact that the stator seems to turn uniformly. Try to spin the rotor slowly and watch the stators. Each one has moments of arrest in between spinning, at that not synchronously for the three stators. Probably at high speeds some averaging of the fields occurs which makes the spin of the stator smoother and yet keeping it AGW.
@ Omni:
At high speeds the stators are like small flywheels as well and therefore avaraging more than at low speed, don't you think?
Looks like the field strenght values are extreemly critical here.
Can't agree more.
I really wish @CLaNZeR would do his fine strobo experiment with dampers not equidistant from the stator, as is in the video.
He's ahead than most of us, I think you'd agree, and has supplied so far invaluable info. Wish if he could do the separation test @MeggerMan suggested (or maybe also give some data for the kgauss on both poles of each magnet) to have a better picture for the strength of his stator and rotor magnets.
(Please, don't get mad at me, mate, for asking you to do all this. I'm not ready yet, still waiting for my stuff to arrive. I'll post such data as soon as I get the equipment and do the tests).
For anyone doing the Junk yard challenge like me here is an idea to use for the dampers, I found one of these wind chimes (http://images.windchime.com/mgen/master:WS017.jpg?is=175,175,0xffffff&cvt=jpg) at the local market, the tubes are aluminum, walls are not very thick, but while trying one out on my replication there was a marked difference in operation, not easy to explain, but stator AGW syncs easier and the wind down time seems longer than it does without the dampers, still in seconds, I'm continuing to experiment, will throw out more data as I get it.
Quote from: RunningBare on January 24, 2008, 04:23:26 PM
For anyone doing the Junk yard challenge like me here is an idea to use for the dampers, I found one of these wind chimes (http://images.windchime.com/mgen/master:WS017.jpg?is=175,175,0xffffff&cvt=jpg) at the local market, the tubes are aluminum, walls are not very thick, but while trying one out on my replication there was a marked difference in operation, not easy to explain, but stator AGW syncs easier and the wind down time seems longer than it does without the dampers, still in seconds, I'm continuing to experiment, will throw out more data as I get it.
Correct. That's what @CLaNZeR's graph showed as well--with dampers the wind down time is greater than without them and the form of the rpm vs. time curve differs from that taken without dampers.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 04:08:37 PM
Quote from: robbie47 on January 24, 2008, 04:06:05 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 03:57:55 PM
What puzzles me in @CLaNZeR's third video is the fact that the stator seems to turn uniformly. Try to spin the rotor slowly and watch the stators. Each one has moments of arrest in between spinning, at that not synchronously for the three stators. Probably at high speeds some averaging of the fields occurs which makes the spin of the stator smoother and yet keeping it AGW.
@ Omni:
At high speeds the stators are like small flywheels as well and therefore avaraging more than at low speed, don't you think?
Looks like the field strenght values are extreemly critical here.
Can't agree more.
@Omni,
I thought about your remarks a little longer.
At the final speed there must be a driving force that exactly compensates the losses (e.g. friction, air draft)
This makes the amount of losses extreemly critical as well and therefore the quality of the applied bearings.
At lower speed there must be a driving force higher than the losses at lower speeds, at least in Al's first video.
Also at lower speeds the avaraging effect of the stator will be less. There is most likely a wobbling phase effect.
This effect will still be there at high speed but less, due to the higher flywheel effect.
Mmmmmmm, need to think a bit longer on this still....
Guys I am trying to do tests from peoples suggestions as well as doing my own experiments, I have been on this 24/7 for over 2 weeks now and will get around to various suggestions that I am taking note off, even if not replying.
My 6061-T6 1/2 SOLID ROUND BAR arrived today, so cut a couple of bits off and quickly bodged into stator, and yep it does make latching easier :)
Not done any wind down tests yet too see the difference between the normal Alluminium dampners and using these ones.
I was looking at the base tonight and following the OC PDF http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/OC_motor_011708.pdf
I drew up another Base as I wanted a exact base with no movement to do some other tests, but it just does not look correct.
AL was saying about the 5mm spacing between the Rotor edge and the Stator outiside surround and stating that it is critical. At 4mm the air gap is too little at 6mm the Magnet looses sync.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fconfusedbase.jpg&hash=38d30d9645b9e129e5a59ec05906b8b6aeb78b85)
Cheers
Sean.
@CLaNZeR,
I guess @Jdo300 will comment on this better than anybody else because he studies these dimensions in depth and then got @alsetalokin's agreement.
Also, it seems to me the 5mm gap for the effect to appear refers to his particular stator to rotor magnetic field strength ratio in the first place (let alone the frictions etc.) which we don't know and which isn't necessarily the same as the one we have in our machines.
Hi Sean,
have you got a supplier for the 6061-T6 1/2 SOLID ROUND BAR?
Repulsion results:
N42 1/4"OD x 1/2" rod vertical repulsion = 31mm
N38 6mmOD x 12mm (6 of 6mm OD x 2mm discs) vertical repulsion = 28mm
N42 Ring 1/2" x 3/16" x 1/4 repulsion to N42 1/4"OD x 1/2" rod = 38mm
Tried both orientations with all the above and I could not see any difference.
Al's Results (from memory):
N?? 1/4"OD x 1/2" rod vertical repulsion = 30.5mm
N42 Ring 1/2" x 3/16" x 1/4 (with bearing) repulsion to N?? 1/4"OD x 1/2" rod = 37mm
Regards
Rob
Quote from: MeggerMan on January 24, 2008, 05:29:08 PM
Hi Sean,
have you got a supplier for the 6061-T6 1/2 SOLID ROUND BAR?
Hi Rob
PM me your address at my site and I will cut you off a couple of chunks.
Let me know what size middle hole you want and how thick you need.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 05:20:26 PM
Also, it seems to me the 5mm gap for the effect to appear refers to his particular stator to rotor magnetic field strength ratio in the first place (let alone the frictions etc.) which we don't know and which isn't necessarily the same as the one we have in our machines.
Yep agree , if the effect is down to 1mm spacing on his Rig, then exact replication is going to be on the agender even more.
What a nightmare when exact is given in snippets and clues LOL
I am not into hassling people as I think people should be allowed too do and say what they want to say and not be judged upon their opinions or statements, if it is not hurting anyone else in life, but I have requested if AL could do us another video of the original with the quality that he did his last video.
I am 90% sure the answer will be NO after the amount of abuse the poor chap has taken, but my time is running out on this project as I need to go do some real life things to pay the bills.
No harm in asking and as agreed with AL, anything sent to me will be made public.
Cheers
Sean.
@MeggerMan,
Thanks. That's strange why I'm seeing a difference. Recall that I also measured the kgauss on both ends and there was a difference as well. Did you get your magnets from K&J?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 02:22:37 PM
Speaking of femm we have to find out who did the simulation @btentzer cited once: http://www.geocities.com/deasyart/steorn/OC_sim_one_stator_a.JPG
hdeasy on the Steorn forum.
@CLaNZeR,
The guy should know better than that. The abuse will evaporate and the abusers will have to eat their hats if independent parties happen to reproduce the effect. Therefore, it's in his best interest to be as cooperative as possible.
Quote from: A-Z on January 24, 2008, 05:49:50 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 02:22:37 PM
Speaking of femm we have to find out who did the simulation @btentzer cited once: http://www.geocities.com/deasyart/steorn/OC_sim_one_stator_a.JPG
hdeasy on the Steorn forum.
Hugh also posted this today at:
http://overunity.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=71.0
Sean - I had some time after all and could make the following comparisons to show
how sensitive the gain is to parameters: well, okay, some of the changes to go to Al's setup were a bit large:
I will now try to see how far I can 'bend' my old sim to Al's setup whilst retaining a gain.
My 'old'setup
Strength of rotor magnet/ Teslas ----------------------- 0.05
Strength of Stator magnet/ Teslas ----------------------- 0.20
Viscous lag time / Sec ----------------------- 0.001
Radius to outer rotor pole / m ----------------------- 0.100
Radius to inner rotor pole / m ----------------------- 0.085
Radius of Stator magnet/ m ----------------------- 0.025
Initial Stator angle / Deg ----------------------- 20.0
Mass of rotor / Kg ----------------------- 0.200
Mass of stator / Kg ------------------------ 0.0025
*KE Gain / Joules after 6.5 sec 0.018*
-------- Al's setup -----------------
Strength of rotor magnet/ Teslas ----------------------- 0.10
Strength of Stator magnet/ Teslas ----------------------- 0.20
Viscous lag time / Sec ----------------------- 0.001
Radius to outer rotor pole / m ----------------------- 0.072
Radius to inner rotor pole / m ----------------------- 0.052
Radius of Stator magnet/ m ----------------------- 0.025
Initial Stator angle / Deg ----------------------- 20.0
Mass of rotor / Kg ----------------------- 0.254
Mass of stator / Kg ----------------------- 0.010
Al's setupKE Gain: Negative for inital stator angles 30, 40, 50, 120, 210, 300, 330 deg.
(though for some of these the rotor spun down, giving peaks of gain of about 0.01 J briefly (just PE -> KE -> PE peaks)
before the gain is converted into a loss of hundreds of Joules!)
The mass of the stator was the first parameter I tweaked to go from my 'old' sim to the OCAL one. In the old sim, it was rather low at 0.0025 kg. A figure quoted for OCAL has been 10g (5g for the magnet and 5g for support, holders ec.). It seemed unrealistic to have anything much lighter, so I set it to 10g.
However, with this heavier stator the gain disappeared!!
Thus it seems the gain is very sensitive to weight of stator. It would be good to get it down as low as possible. Since you had to zonk it up with blue-tack, you might have had a light stator to start with: I would take off the blue-tack if I were you.
In order to balance the heavy stator, I thought to increase the rotor weight. At 400g, the gain was there again ! But it was only 0.0015J - less than a tenth its previous value. If I increased to 800g I got 0.004J and there was little to be gained by increasing rotor weight further. So I adapted a weight of 800g to be consistent with stator weight 10g.
Next magnet strength was considered: my old sim had stator stregth 0.2T - which I believe is what OCAL had. But my rotor strength was only 0.05 Teslas. I now increased it to 0.10 Teslas, which I believe was closer to OCAL's value. This had a positive effect on the gain, increasing it to 0.017 J : almost what we were getting for the old sim.
By the way - I always have start speed of rotor about 190 RPM and set stator to be always in 4:1 AGW synch.. I am sure Hugh will not mind me posting this here,
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: A-Z on January 24, 2008, 05:49:50 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 02:22:37 PM
Speaking of femm we have to find out who did the simulation @btentzer cited once: http://www.geocities.com/deasyart/steorn/OC_sim_one_stator_a.JPG
hdeasy on the Steorn forum.
Could you ask him to come over here to discuss his modeling? Thanks.
@Sean,
PM sent (forgot to mention length, whatever you think is best - about 12-14mm ?)
@Omni,
N42's all K&J, N38 ebay
Only thing I can think is you have some very powerful magnets near your testing area. ;)
(perhaps the other N42 magnets)
Have you got some magnetic film for field testing, it may show a skewed pole, in that the pole is coming out the corner of one end.
How many pairs are like this?
Regards
Rob
Thanks @CLaNZeR. So let's start from this--the simulation of @alsetalokin's was for 1kgauss for the rotor and 2kgauss for the stator. Was that induction considered to be at the surface of magnets or elsewhere?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 05:51:47 PM
@CLaNZeR,
The guy should know better than that. The abuse will evaporate and the abusers will have to eat their hats if independent parties happen to reproduce the effect. Therefore, it's in his best interest to be as cooperative as possible.
Sorry Omni
Life is not as clear cut as that mate.
People in life have different sensitive levels and what may seem to one person a reasonable, clear to the cut question can indeed offend another.
To the person asking that question they see nothing wrong in what they have asked, to the person being asked it can make hell of an impact.
EXAMPLE: Omni I know you and I know how you ask questions to get what you need too know, in the logical way you need too know and when I see a post from you that makes me cringe I know it gets other peoples back's up, but I just accept it and think, well that is OMNI and that is his way of asking stuff.
I do not get offended because I know you by now. Yet others will get really annoyed at the direct approach you have and will not be as forward with the answer, because you did not take time to get to know that person and also to get too know how to ask the question. Get my drift?
Interaction is not always about facts and good to remember that this OU stuff is not business orientated, it is a hobby to most people and they give what their spare times allow them to give, so we should not expect anything of anyone.
If AL was claiming OU and asking you to send money, then yep everyone has a right to ask questions, that is not the case here though.
Cheers
Sean.
@MeggerMan,
I did the measurements in the same way for all the magnets. Now I have a new batch of N42 (N38 haven't arrived yet), will redo the measurement and will let you know the outcome.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 05:54:58 PM
Quote from: A-Z on January 24, 2008, 05:49:50 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 02:22:37 PM
Speaking of femm we have to find out who did the simulation @btentzer cited once: http://www.geocities.com/deasyart/steorn/OC_sim_one_stator_a.JPG
hdeasy on the Steorn forum.
Could you ask him to come over here to discuss his modeling? Thanks.
Why do you not just pop over to the forums, have a look and ask him yourself. You have questions, why should he come to you?
hehehe ;D ;D ;D
@CLaNZeR,
You probably missed the fact that I left Steorn forum for good not to get blamed that I've scared the guy away with my direct approach. If he disappears the way that sorry Mike suddenly disappeared after wetting everybody's appetite with his ostensible cooperation for a while in replicating Bedini's device, everyone will know that at least the reason for the disappearance won't lie with me.
This is in reference to the strobe video. One thing that I noticed is the the magnets are not symmetrically placed around the rotor. It appears that there about a 2mm jump in the various placements. This might be important for an asymmetrical force for acceleration.
@mudwump,
Where's the asymmetry, in @alsetalokin's or in @CLaNZeR's? I've tried with asymmetric placement of rotor magnets but to no avail. Maybe you could suggest a particular pattern.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 06:11:39 PM
@CLaNZeR,
You probably missed the fact that I left Steorn forum for good not to get blamed that I've scared the guy away with my direct approach. If he disappears the way that sorry Mike suddenly disappeared after wetting everybody's appetite with his ostensible cooperation for a while in replicating Bedini's device, everyone will know that at least the reason for the disappearance won't lie with me.
Omni nope I did not miss that, but my forums http://www.overunity.org.uk have nothing to do with Steorn.
But in my forums I just move anything that takes the Thread OFF topic too much to another area.
Nothing to do with Steorn.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 24, 2008, 06:19:01 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 06:11:39 PM
@CLaNZeR,
You probably missed the fact that I left Steorn forum for good not to get blamed that I've scared the guy away with my direct approach. If he disappears the way that sorry Mike suddenly disappeared after wetting everybody's appetite with his ostensible cooperation for a while in replicating Bedini's device, everyone will know that at least the reason for the disappearance won't lie with me.
Omni nope I did not miss that, but my forums http://www.overunity.org.uk have nothing to do with Steorn.
But in my forums I just move anything that takes the Thread OFF topic too much to another area.
Nothing to do with Steorn.
Now, that's a good idea. I, for one, won't need to read any of, say, @RunningBare's posts. None of them both here and in Steorn forum has contributed almost anything to the problem and I wish I had a way to just not see them at all. On another note, no offense, but at this moment I'd prefer to follow the discussion in just one thread where the most replicators have concentrated their discussion. Seems to me this one is the thread which, of course, may change in the future.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 06:26:12 PM
On another note, no offense, but at this moment I'd prefer to follow the discussion in just one thread where the most replicators have concentrated their discussion. Seems to me this one is the thread which, of course, may change in the future.
Fair enough mate and we will try to update this thread on as much as we can, from what is going on in other places, but other people feel the same that are contributing to other threads in other places and we cannot expect them to come over here.
I cover alot of forums and alot of areas because in my mind that is the only way too keep up with what is going on with so many people involved in this replication attempt.
Cheers
Sean.
@Mudwump
Quote from: mudwump on January 24, 2008, 06:14:20 PM
This is in reference to the strobe video. One thing that I noticed is the the magnets are not symmetrically placed around the rotor. It appears that there about a 2mm jump in the various placements. This might be important for an asymmetrical force for acceleration.
I think you're right, I measured the paused video on the screen with a ruler and it does look like the poles marked black are closer together and the silver poles are further apart, but its not a consistent thing.
Regards
Rob
Quote from: MeggerMan on January 24, 2008, 05:56:00 PM
@Sean,
PM sent (forgot to mention length, whatever you think is best - about 12-14mm ?)
No problems Rob
Will catch up on PM's tomorrow and cut a couple of lumps off for you, then you can cut them down to the size you need.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: MeggerMan on January 24, 2008, 06:34:54 PM
@Mudwump
Quote from: mudwump on January 24, 2008, 06:14:20 PM
This is in reference to the strobe video. One thing that I noticed is the the magnets are not symmetrically placed around the rotor. It appears that there about a 2mm jump in the various placements. This might be important for an asymmetrical force for acceleration.
I think you're right, I measured the paused video on the screen with a ruler and it does look like the poles marked black are closer together and the silver poles are further apart, but its not a consistent thing.
Regards
Rob
You're talking about @CLaNZeR's video, right?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 06:26:12 PM
Now, that's a good idea. I, for one, won't need to read any of, say, @RunningBare's posts. None of them both here and in Steorn forum has contributed almost anything to the problem and I wish I had a way to just not see them at all. On another note, no offense, but at this moment I'd prefer to follow the discussion in just one thread where the most replicators have concentrated their discussion. Seems to me this one is the thread which, of course, may change in the future.
Show us yours?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 06:36:55 PM
Quote from: MeggerMan on January 24, 2008, 06:34:54 PM
@Mudwump
Quote from: mudwump on January 24, 2008, 06:14:20 PM
This is in reference to the strobe video. One thing that I noticed is the the magnets are not symmetrically placed around the rotor. It appears that there about a 2mm jump in the various placements. This might be important for an asymmetrical force for acceleration.
I think you're right, I measured the paused video on the screen with a ruler and it does look like the poles marked black are closer together and the silver poles are further apart, but its not a consistent thing.
Regards
Rob
You're talking about @CLaNZeR's video, right?
Your not keeping up Omni, the stroboscope video is ALs, he sent it to CLaNZeR.
Is that right? @alsetalokin won't post videos himself but only through intermediaries. Did I get that correct? The third video, that is, http://youtube.com/watch?v=i32ef88sRlg is a video made by @alsetalokin of his original device which was only posted by @CLaNZeR, right? That's not @CLaNZeR's device, right? Was that third video then a video of the original @alsetalokin's device accelerated as @alsetalokin's famous first video? Let's get that very clear. If so, what's that additional magnet on the damper, for instance? @robbie47 asked that question but never got a reply as far as I can tell.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 24, 2008, 06:51:50 PM
Is that right? @alsetalokin won't post videos himself but only through intermediaries. Did I get that correct? The third video, that is, http://youtube.com/watch?v=i32ef88sRlg is a video made by @alsetalokin of his original device which was only posted by @CLaNZeR, right? That's not @CLaNZeR's device, right? Was that third video then a video of the original @alsetalokin's device accelerated as @alsetalokin's famous first video? Let's get that very clear. If so, what's that additional magnet on the damper, for instance? @robbie47 asked that question but never got a reply as far as I can tell.
The title is "Alsetalokins third video"
I think that kinda gives it away, but there is also information here http://overunity.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=90.0
@CLaNZeR,
Sorry, mate, that deserves much more attention than I originally thought. Recall, I asked you to do the video with dampers not equidistant from the stator. That's because I just didn't notice that this isn't your device and I have given up hope that @alsetalokin will ever post another sensible video (didn't he trash his device out). But now, again, in his original video which caused the hell to break loose the dampers weren't equidistant, in the third video they are. In the first video there were no additional magnets on the dampers. Also, the dampers are just fixed and show no motion at all, correct?
Before we all go off theorizing on the new video, which is very interesting, can anyone with experience comment on the difference between interpreting a slow motion video, and interpreting a stroboscopic video???
This is not a slow motion video, but a stroboscopic video and may need to be interpreted correctly.
Can anyone comment on this difference?
Quote from: mudwump on January 24, 2008, 06:14:20 PM
This is in reference to the strobe video. One thing that I noticed is the the magnets are not symmetrically placed around the rotor. It appears that there about a 2mm jump in the various placements. This might be important for an asymmetrical force for acceleration.
Yes that is visible, looks like every other magnet in the video shows a shadow.
@ken_nyus,
That's a very good point. And, also, we need to know for sure whether or not this video shows the motor accelerated as the motor in the original video. Not just any motion of the rotor with AGW stator but that that motion at high rpm seen in the third video is indeed due to the effect shown in the first video.
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 24, 2008, 07:37:40 PM
Quote from: mudwump on January 24, 2008, 06:14:20 PM
This is in reference to the strobe video. One thing that I noticed is the the magnets are not symmetrically placed around the rotor. It appears that there about a 2mm jump in the various placements. This might be important for an asymmetrical force for acceleration.
Yes that is visible, looks like every other magnet in the video shows a shadow.
If we know for sure that that 3rd video shows a motion as a result of the effect observed in the first video then that asymmetric placement of the rotor magnets must be studied very well and reproduced exactly in our replications. And, again, what are these additional magnets on the dampers?
Can somebody please give reference to where there are additional magnets on the dampers?
I don't believe that the rotor in Al's 3rd video was moving at a very high speed. If the strobe was set for 4620 pulses/minute and not 4620 rpm's then the rotor would have to be spinning at a speed of less than 577 rpms (4620/8). If the rotor speed was exactly 577.5 it would appear to be standing still.
@MeggerMan,
I have the results for the vertical repulsion of the batch of 12 new N42 1/4"OD x 1/2" rod magnets. The separation is between 31mm and 31.5mm both ways. Same as yours. I don't have these magnets with me right now. Hope to have them soon here so that I can measure this myself as well as the kgauss on both sides and also try them in my rig.
The measurement of N42 Ring 1/2" x 3/16" x 1/4 (with bearing) repulsion to N?? 1/4"OD x 1/2" rod has to be discussed more so that our results match those of @alsetalokin. That's an even more important measurement than the above.
Forgot to mention--all rotor magnets are 3g each.
Quote from: leeanderthal on January 24, 2008, 08:02:32 PM
I don't believe that the rotor in Al's 3rd video was moving at a very high speed. If the strobe was set for 4620 pulses/minute and not 4620 rpm's then the rotor would have to be spinning at a speed of less than 577 rpms (4620/8). If the rotor speed was exactly 577.5 it would appear to be standing still.
the strobe is NOT in sync with the rotor per full rotation, you are seeing 4 different magnets in each location. the same as you see 4 positions of the tape. this is why you can see the magnets are not positioned equally in one of the slots. the question is.. does this help or hamper the device? if they were more even would it go faster or longer, or would it not work at all?
Quote from: leeanderthal on January 24, 2008, 08:02:32 PM
I don't believe that the rotor in Al's 3rd video was moving at a very high speed. If the strobe was set for 4620 pulses/minute and not 4620 rpm's then the rotor would have to be spinning at a speed of less than 577 rpms (4620/8). If the rotor speed was exactly 577.5 it would appear to be standing still.
I thought that at first, but look at the relective strip on the rotor, it only shows up in 4 positions, which would make it 1155 RPM.
You're right RunningBare. The tape is the give away.
I'm looking at the video one frame at a time and the appearance isn't uniform. Sometimes you see two frames with same position of the tape at other times various other positions--sometimes three, sometimes two stripes per frame.
Quote from: RunningBare on January 24, 2008, 07:52:37 PM
Can somebody please give reference to where there are additional magnets on the dampers?
I think it is from back on the bottom of page 110 from Robbie47.
From the new vid, the damper at the top of the video looks like it has something other than just a screw holding it down.
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 24, 2008, 08:32:37 PM
Quote from: RunningBare on January 24, 2008, 07:52:37 PM
Can somebody please give reference to where there are additional magnets on the dampers?
I think it is from back on the bottom of page 110 from Robbie47.
From the new vid, the damper at the top of the video looks like it has something other than just a screw holding it down.
I assumed it was some sort of non magnetic clip similar to the image here
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.keyelco.com%2Fimages%2Fproducts%2Fnylspac.jpg&hash=af1348fe36f0b4a66251b120c50d29295ee3817c)
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 24, 2008, 05:11:00 PM
Guys I am trying to do tests from peoples suggestions as well as doing my own experiments, I have been on this 24/7 for over 2 weeks now and will get around to various suggestions that I am taking note off, even if not replying.
My 6061-T6 1/2 SOLID ROUND BAR arrived today, so cut a couple of bits off and quickly bodged into stator, and yep it does make latching easier :)
Not done any wind down tests yet too see the difference between the normal Alluminium dampners and using these ones.
I was looking at the base tonight and following the OC PDF http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/OC_motor_011708.pdf
I drew up another Base as I wanted a exact base with no movement to do some other tests, but it just does not look correct.
AL was saying about the 5mm spacing between the Rotor edge and the Stator outiside surround and stating that it is critical. At 4mm the air gap is too little at 6mm the Magnet looses sync.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fconfusedbase.jpg&hash=38d30d9645b9e129e5a59ec05906b8b6aeb78b85)
Cheers
Sean.
@ Jason,
Can you please comment on this? it sounds like tolerances need to be pretty exact... Several of us are about to order rotor's / bases based on the drawings that CLaNZeR refers to here... do you feel that adjustments need to be made before we place the orders?
Thanks
Geodan
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 24, 2008, 08:32:37 PM
Quote from: RunningBare on January 24, 2008, 07:52:37 PM
Can somebody please give reference to where there are additional magnets on the dampers?
I think it is from back on the bottom of page 110 from Robbie47.
From the new vid, the damper at the top of the video looks like it has something other than just a screw holding it down.
Yep, and it is not a magnet. Blue_ hit on it some time ago. It is a golf tee. It is non magnetic and make it easy to move the damper around for testing. Look at the center dimple. A golf tee no doubt, and no joke! LOL :D
@ Rob
Strange that your N38's are 28 mm separation and my N35's are 28.5 mm (tested both ways, no difference)
@ Clanzer
It will be interesting to see your wind down test results with the identical alloy that Al is using, compared to the aluminum.
Also, if you could please ask AL to measure the separation from the black ends of the rotor magnets and the separation between the silver ends. Jason can figure it out, but it would be far more accurate to have Al simply measure it for us. This could also, make a huge difference between a working replication, and one that does not. ;) Thanks!!
@ Omni
Still no success finding a magnet with 30.5 mm separation. We need to keep looking.
Cheers,
Bruce
For the visual detectives out there, it seems to me that Al has painted one of the crescents on the outer part of the rotor black, from this image in the dual trace post over at Clanzer's site...
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/alsetalokin/symmetry_p1.JPG
You can see it flash in and out in the new vid.
Quote from: geodan on January 24, 2008, 08:47:03 PM
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 24, 2008, 05:11:00 PM
Guys I am trying to do tests from peoples suggestions as well as doing my own experiments, I have been on this 24/7 for over 2 weeks now and will get around to various suggestions that I am taking note off, even if not replying.
My 6061-T6 1/2 SOLID ROUND BAR arrived today, so cut a couple of bits off and quickly bodged into stator, and yep it does make latching easier :)
Not done any wind down tests yet too see the difference between the normal Alluminium dampners and using these ones.
I was looking at the base tonight and following the OC PDF http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/OC_motor_011708.pdf
I drew up another Base as I wanted a exact base with no movement to do some other tests, but it just does not look correct.
AL was saying about the 5mm spacing between the Rotor edge and the Stator outiside surround and stating that it is critical. At 4mm the air gap is too little at 6mm the Magnet looses sync.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fconfusedbase.jpg&hash=38d30d9645b9e129e5a59ec05906b8b6aeb78b85)
Cheers
Sean.
@ Jason,
Can you please comment on this? it sounds like tolerances need to be pretty exact... Several of us are about to order rotor's / bases based on the drawings that CLaNZeR refers to here... do you feel that adjustments need to be made before we place the orders?
Thanks
Geodan
Hi Geodan,
I can't really comment on that image as I am not sure how he arrived at those measurements. What I can say though is that the set of blueprints and CAD models that I made for the unit were approved by Al. I am still waiting for my base and rotor to arrive in the mail (expecting to see it either Saturday or Monday next week). But I had my model CNC'd exactly according to the drawings that I made based on Al's comments on the dimensions. In case you didn't see the posts about it, look here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg70719.html#msg70719
@All,
After seeing Al's third video with the strobed images, I am very relieved to see that the stator magnet is rotating at a constant velocity. I have read about the many proposals to artificially reproduce the acceleration using motors. I've given some thought to this myself and it seems to me that we should look into actually locking the stator and rotor in a 4:1 gear/pully ratio. In this way, we can simply var the phasing of the system and then use a motor to spin the stator to see how that affects the power consumed by the motor. (But again, this is assuming that the stator velocity is constant as the video strongly suggests).
Also, now that I can analyze the stator magnet position with respect to the rotor. I can almost do some simulations to show the torques on the stator and rotor. But before we go there, we need to know if the rotor magnets are, in fact, off center in their slots in the rotor. I'll wait to see if Al comments on this but, if not, it would be a small matter to simply add that as a parameter in the simulation to get some preliminary results.
@Omnibnus,
Have you found out anymore information about the person who did the simulation graphs? I would be very interested in knowing what software he used to generate the results.
God Bless,
Jason O
@ken_nyus,
Speaking of video-detectives. Is it me but it appears that the right hand side rotor magnet in the pic you show is at 90mm from the left rim and 104mm from the right rim? Left hand side rotor magnet seems pretty symmetric.
@btentzer,
Will work more on this problem (the strength of magnets). Probably on Sunday I will have the virgin ones together with the ones I've already worked with and studied. It will be amazing if working with them a little bit affects their field as Stefan suggested. Will let you know immediately as soon as I get results. That's very important to study.
@Jdo300,
Don't have a clue although I'd like to know more about this simulation too. @btentzer mentioned it first here and someone else added that the simulation has been done by @hdeasy from Steorn forum.
I took the video apart. As it turns out, the rotor is striped radially in quadrants - except that the fourth quadrant doesn't have the stripe. This allows us to positively identify the location of the rotor in each frame. The first frame or two happen before the strobe turns on - so I skipped them. Then, the next 4 frames happen with the strobe turned on and I captured them. Notice that the stator seems not to move almost at all. But, in reality, we see that the stator has moved ~360 degrees (follow the location of the missing stripe in the rotor in the four frames - showing that it has moved 90 degrees in between each frame). Now I'm not as sure about the reliability of my earlier statements regarding the lack of speed changes in the stator. Can we really tell whether the stator slows down or not if each frame represents slightly more than 360 degrees of stator motion? To tell the truth, I'm not sure what it all means anymore...
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2302%2F2217491691_19f256cbcb_b.jpg&hash=442137da97c2d2122a81ad9b768961413fab9740)
Quote from: blue_energy on January 25, 2008, 12:15:49 AM
I took the video apart. As it turns out, the rotor is striped radially in quadrants - except that the fourth quadrant doesn't have the stripe.
well.. i think youre wrong. in the time the camera has taken one picture frame the strobe has flashed 3 times. thats why you see 3 strips, its all the same strip, in 3 places.
this can easily be seen by the identical writing at the end of all 3
Quote from: evil-doer on January 25, 2008, 12:26:54 AM
Quote from: blue_energy on January 25, 2008, 12:15:49 AM
I took the video apart. As it turns out, the rotor is striped radially in quadrants - except that the fourth quadrant doesn't have the stripe.
well.. i think youre wrong. in the time the camera has taken one picture frame the strobe has flashed 3 times. thats why you see 3 strips, its all the same strip, in 3 places.
this can easily be seen by the identical writing at the end of all 3
Yes, there is only one strip, single frame time not quite long enough to capture a 4th strobe.
Quote from: evil-doer on January 25, 2008, 12:26:54 AM
Quote from: blue_energy on January 25, 2008, 12:15:49 AM
I took the video apart. As it turns out, the rotor is striped radially in quadrants - except that the fourth quadrant doesn't have the stripe.
well.. i think youre wrong. in the time the camera has taken one picture frame the strobe has flashed 3 times. thats why you see 3 strips, its all the same strip, in 3 places.
this can easily be seen by the identical writing at the end of all 3
that would confirm 4:1, every time that the rotor moves 1/4 turn the stator has gone around 360...
So - you think the rotor is moving 270 degrees between each frame? That would make sense too. That would also mean that the stator is revolving 1080 degrees between each frame.
Quote from: blue_energy on January 25, 2008, 12:36:33 AM
So - you think the rotor is moving 270 degrees between each frame? That would make sense too. That would also mean that the stator is revolving 1080 degrees between each frame.
no i think its spinning several times around on each frame. if it was only 270 degrees, say it was filmed at 20 frames a second. thats only 900 rpm. its probably spinning around 5x270 degrees for each frame
Quote from: evil-doer on January 25, 2008, 12:44:35 AM
Quote from: blue_energy on January 25, 2008, 12:36:33 AM
So - you think the rotor is moving 270 degrees between each frame? That would make sense too. That would also mean that the stator is revolving 1080 degrees between each frame.
no i think its spinning several times around on each frame. if it was only 270 degrees, say it was filmed at 20 frames a second. thats only 900 rpm. its probably spinning around 5x270 degrees for each frame
are you saying that it's more then 4:1?
When I count frame by frame 1s is the 25th frame.
Quote from: geodan on January 25, 2008, 12:54:15 AM
are you saying that it's more then 4:1?
no the stators are spinning many times around too. its 4:1
As far as I can see visible full turn of the stator (restoring the initial black-white position) takes about 120 frames, that is 4.8s.
the video says the strobe is set to 4620 rpm (im guessing flashes per minute)
/60 for 77 per second
/25fps for 3.08 flashes per frame. so it makes sense we see 3 strips
because each strobe is 90 degrees more than the last im guessing the device is spinning at 4620x1.25=5775rpm
ya, im just guessing
edit: ok i take that back, its probably slower than 4620, so youve gotta divide by something. im too tired to try to do math or think
@evil-doer,
By 'device' you mean the rotor (speaking of strips), correct? That's too high, isn't it? The stator then should rotate four times faster. Shouldn't it be 0.75 x 4620 = 3465rpm because we see three strips per frame (not always, though, some frames show 2 strips only, sometimes the follow up frame being the same 2-strip pic). That seems high too considering what the stator rpm should be then.
CLaNZeR Thanks for putting up Alsetalokin's Third Video! If you could somehow get me the raw Interlaced PAL video that would be helpful. It appears that the deinterlacer used blends the fields. I can use a motion compensated bob deinterlacer which will give us 50 fps video. Here is your video at 5 fps forwards then reversed, then zoomed. Sorta took care of the flicker as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V8y7qfO9gw
Also if you guys are taking measurements from pictures, because of lens distortion, it won't be exact. If the ORGINAL jpg still has the EXIF data you can use this to undistort the image
http://www.brothersoft.com/gml-undistorter-download-42391.html
Otherwise use this GIMP plugin
http://wiki.panotools.org/Gimp_wideangle_plugin
GIMP
http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/stable.html
Quote from: Omnibus on January 25, 2008, 01:29:07 AM
@evil-doer,
By 'device' you mean the rotor (speaking of strips), correct? That's too high, isn't it? The stator then should rotate four times faster. Shouldn't it be 0.75 x 4620 = 3465rpm because we see three strips per frame (not always, though, some frames show 2 strips only sometimes the follow up frame being the same 2-strip pic). That seems high too considering what the stator rpm should be then.
ya youre exactly right, its turns 270 degrees per strobe
What rpm is he measuring in the first video anyway? Seems he's pointing the laser dot to the stator and when the effect kicked in it showed something on the order of 1300rpm. Then, when he stopped the two stators it again seems that he points the laser spot to the AGW stator and the rpm now read over 4000. Is this the way you understand it too? Is he measuring the rotor rpm at all in the first video?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 25, 2008, 01:58:08 AM
What rpm is he measuring in the first video anyway? Seems he's pointing the laser dot to the stator and when the effect kicked in it showed something on the order of 1300rpm. Then, when he stopped the two stators it again seems that he points the laser spot to the AGW stator and the rpm now read over 4000. Is this the way you understand it too? Is he measuring the rotor rpm at all in the first video?
no he says almost 5000rpm on the small magnet
so even this 3465 seems too high. at 4:1 thats 13860rpm on the small magnet.
so either we are working this out wrong or he has ramped up the speed considerably with tweeking
@evil_doer,
Correct, the data he's showing in the video refer to the stator, 5000rpm he says although the readout seems to show somewhat less. Give or take around that number. OK. I don't get the rotor rpm, though. Something is messy before he stops the two stators and after he stops them he seems to measure only the AGW rotor rpm. If he's showing a greater effect now in this third video that would really be something. I'd happily live even with the effect from the first video.
Is there any indication of acceleration/deceleration on this video?
You know, it could be that he is having both stator magnets running AGW. If you recall, he said that the Stator went over 12,000 rpm when two of the stators were synced AGW. This would explain and match the rpm's we see in this video.
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: geodan on January 24, 2008, 08:47:03 PM
Can you please comment on this? it sounds like tolerances need to be pretty exact... Several of us are about to order rotor's / bases based on the drawings that CLaNZeR refers to here... do you feel that adjustments need to be made before we place the orders?
Hi Geodan
Ignore that base layout, it is my crappy Software. I created a middle line and told it to increment every 27.692 degrees and the software created the drift.
When and did it a different way this morning all all okay.
I also overlayed JDO's Base DXF on top after I had finished and it was spot on, so no problems.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: btentzer on January 24, 2008, 08:54:08 PM
@ Clanzer
It will be interesting to see your wind down test results with the identical alloy that Al is using, compared to the aluminum.
Hi Bruce
I am cutting a standard base for this test and it is on the CNC machine as I type :)
Will then do a wind down with out the Dampners and 3 stators.
With normal stock alluminium bar Dampners and 3 stators
And with correct Dampners and 3 stators.
Cheers
Sean.
Just a reminder of tachometer readings given by AL
Rotor: 1250 RPM
Stator 5000 RPM
The stroboscope is set to 4620 pulses per minute
The 3rd video appears to give a rotor speed of 1155 RPM, thats only 95 RPM difference from ALs tachometer reading of 1250
So taking this into account, I think we can safely say the tachometer readings and stroboscope are fairly consistant.
Here are the speeds in alsetalokins words
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=6&Focus=2266448#Item_28
Quote
I have determined that a slightly more sedate speed is better than trying for all-out. The unit runs well at a stator rpm of around 5000 (hence rotor around 1250)
Wind down test from alsetalokin
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=9&Focus=2266448#Item_7
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=9&Focus=2266448#Item_8
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=9&Focus=2266448#Item_11
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=9&Focus=2266448#Item_14
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=9&Focus=2266448#Item_17
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=9&Focus=2266448#Item_22
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=9&Focus=2266448#Item_26
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=9&Focus=2266448#Item_34
This is not what I see in the first video. The effect kicks in around 1:35 into the video. After the effect shows itself he places the laser spot on the AGW stator and says it?s going 4200rpm but the readout isn?t seen to show that. Then he again places the laser spot on the AGW stator the readout now showing first 1248rpm then some erratic number 1.8 or something, then 1248rpm again, again an erratic reading :1 P and finally 2860rpm followed by gibberish once again and 1248rpm the third time. In words he?s saying ?the little magnet is going 4200rpm? but that never shows on the readout. He mentions interaction of the fluorescent light and 1700rpm referring to the AGW magnet which again isn?t seen on the readout.
After stopping the two stators measuring the AGW stator he indeed says ?almost 5000rpm? but the tachometer measuring the AGW stator reads 4131rpm.
Not only the measurement seen in the video is messy but at no point measurement of the rotor rpm seems to occur.
Well as close as I can get to the original Rig for the Wind Down tests.
Got to shoot out now, but will fire her up later and post the results.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fnnewb1.jpg&hash=417fd9e112c4c8859ba84ffa99e1cfa0d7bfa820)
Cheers
Sean.
ummm just realised I layed up the stators as per jdo's cad drawing, but I think it may be wrong.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fdiff.jpg&hash=84d01b7635b2bab18043d485b4585d87f70688ff)
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 25, 2008, 09:13:40 AM
After stopping the two stators measuring the AGW stator he indeed says ?almost 5000rpm? but the tachometer measuring the AGW stator reads 4131rpm.
Not only the measurement seen in the video is messy but at no point measurement of the rotor rpm seems to occur.
Are you so sure it's not 4731 RPM?
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcosmopod.com%2Fmysite%2Fbarefm%2Fop%2Frpm.jpg&hash=a8924533e75793974d3836b2380c7a60c7e01071)
Like I said, the measurement in @alsetalokin's first video is messy and no advocacy can save it.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 25, 2008, 09:20:19 AM
Well as close as I can get to the original Rig for the Wind Down tests.
Got to shoot out now, but will fire her up later and post the results.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fnnewb1.jpg&hash=417fd9e112c4c8859ba84ffa99e1cfa0d7bfa820)
Cheers
Sean.
Thanks Sean, looking forward to it. I think it will be different, using the alloy over the pure Aluminum. We will see. ;)
Cheers,
Bruce
@CLaNZeR,
Seems to me not only the dampers have to be around the stator equidistant from the other two stators but the first video shows that one of the dampers is closer to the stator than the other damper, not as in the picture you showed here.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 25, 2008, 09:37:58 AM
ummm just realised I layed up the stators as per jdo's cad drawing, but I think it may be wrong.
Cheers
Sean.
wow, that drawing IS wrong. is that how youve had yours set the whole time? you can see in the original video theres the 4 empty pegs between the two stators he stops. will be interesting to see how that affects things
Sean
Besides the Drawing being incorrect i.e. the stator layout, are U using Brass screws to retain the dampers instead of Nylon or Plastic?
Other than that it looks great ;D
Good Luck
Bill
Quote from: Omnibus on January 25, 2008, 11:12:38 AM
@CLaNZeR,
Seems to me not only the dampers have to be around the stator equidistant from the other two stators but the first video shows that one of the dampers is closer to the stator than the other damper, not as in the picture you showed here.
Sean
Besides the Drawing being incorrect i.e. Stator layout, are u using brass to retain the Dampers instead of Nylon or plastic ?
Other than that the rep looks Great ;D
Good Luck
Bill
Quote from: vipond50 on January 25, 2008, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 25, 2008, 11:12:38 AM
@CLaNZeR,
Seems to me not only the dampers have to be around the stator equidistant from the other two stators but the first video shows that one of the dampers is closer to the stator than the other damper, not as in the picture you showed here.
Sean
Besides the Drawing being incorrect i.e. Stator layout, are u using brass to retain the Dampers instead of Nylon or plastic ?
Other than that the rep looks Great ;D
Good Luck
Bill
Also did U base your rotor layout off of Jason's drawing or the original Mea's provided in the PDF?
Thanks again
Bill
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 25, 2008, 04:19:53 AM
Is there any indication of acceleration/deceleration on this video?
I'm very interested in the answer to this question too. For you smart video people:
In the third video, with the strobe, we apparently see the stator very consistently turning around: no adjustment in speed for the stator magnet relative to rotor magnet. No acceleration/deceleration. But - we know that in reality the stator has spun around - what did you settle on, 9 times? As I think this through, the relationship between the actual speed of the stator and the apparent relative speed of the stator should remain constant. If the stator slows down, it's strobed image on the video should apparently slow down as well. Is my reasoning sound here? Is there any reason to believe that by some trick of the lens the stator is doing anything but keeping to a consistant rpm throughout it's revolution?
Quote from: blue_energy on January 25, 2008, 12:39:36 PM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 25, 2008, 04:19:53 AM
Is there any indication of acceleration/deceleration on this video?
I'm very interested in the answer to this question too. For you smart video people:
In the third video, with the strobe, we apparently see the stator very consistently turning around: no adjustment in speed for the stator magnet relative to rotor magnet. No acceleration/deceleration. But - we know that in reality the stator has spun around - what did you settle on, 9 times? As I think this through, the relationship between the actual speed of the stator and the apparent relative speed of the stator should remain constant. If the stator slows down, it's strobed image on the video should apparently slow down as well. Is my reasoning sound here? Is there any reason to believe that by some trick of the lens the stator is doing anything but keeping to a consistant rpm throughout it's revolution?
I don't know if it's camera distortion or what, but if you draw a straight line from the top of the strip on the rotor to the stator that line seems to drop... again, not sure if this is caused by distortion or stator / rotor acel or decel or what but from what I see it does seem to change...
Quote from: blue_energy on January 25, 2008, 12:39:36 PM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 25, 2008, 04:19:53 AM
Is there any indication of acceleration/deceleration on this video?
I'm very interested in the answer to this question too. For you smart video people:
In the third video, with the strobe, we apparently see the stator very consistently turning around: no adjustment in speed for the stator magnet relative to rotor magnet. No acceleration/deceleration. But - we know that in reality the stator has spun around - what did you settle on, 9 times? As I think this through, the relationship between the actual speed of the stator and the apparent relative speed of the stator should remain constant. If the stator slows down, it's strobed image on the video should apparently slow down as well. Is my reasoning sound here? Is there any reason to believe that by some trick of the lens the stator is doing anything but keeping to a consistant rpm throughout it's revolution?
No - wait. That can't be right. 270 degrees per strobe would imply 810 degrees of rotation by the rotor per frame, which would imply 2.25 revolutions in the stator per frame - but the stator clearly has moved a multiple of 360 degrees. Maybe it's 270 degrees per frame and 1080 for the stator after all. But, regardless, my question regarding acceleration and deceleration doesn't really change regardless how many actual (albeit multiple) revolutions the stator makes per frame.
Quote from: blue_energy on January 25, 2008, 12:55:10 PM
No - wait. That can't be right. 270 degrees per strobe would imply 810 degrees of rotation by the rotor per frame, which would imply 2.25 revolutions in the stator per frame - but the stator clearly has moved a multiple of 360 degrees. Maybe it's 270 degrees per frame and 1080 for the stator after all. But, regardless, my question regarding acceleration and deceleration doesn't really change regardless how many actual (albeit multiple) revolutions the stator makes per frame.
every 90 degrees the rotor turns, the stator turns 360. its a 4:1 gear ratio.
Quote from: evil-doer on January 25, 2008, 01:11:20 PM
Quote from: blue_energy on January 25, 2008, 12:55:10 PM
No - wait. That can't be right. 270 degrees per strobe would imply 810 degrees of rotation by the rotor per frame, which would imply 2.25 revolutions in the stator per frame - but the stator clearly has moved a multiple of 360 degrees. Maybe it's 270 degrees per frame and 1080 for the stator after all. But, regardless, my question regarding acceleration and deceleration doesn't really change regardless how many actual (albeit multiple) revolutions the stator makes per frame.
every 90 degrees the rotor turns, the stator turns 360. its a 4:1 gear ratio.
what's going on with the straight line from along the top of the strip to the stator dropping? is that a matter of strobe timing? or accel / decel of the device or one of it's components?
...maybe it's just me... I was comparing the frames posted here last night instead of the actual clip...
The actual clip seems to be a hand-held video to me, so it makes it hard to do straight-line checks. The whole image moves around a bit.
Quote from: geodan on January 25, 2008, 01:30:07 PM
what's going on with the straight line from along the top of the strip to the stator dropping? is that a matter of strobe timing? or accel / decel of the device or one of it's components?
im not sure i understand you. have you seen the video? he set the timing of the strobe in such a way that the device appears to look like its running in slow motion. so the line is dropping in a clockwise direction. this speed is just an illusion tho, you could adjust the strobe so it looks like its running backwards if you wanted.
Quote from: vipond50 on January 25, 2008, 12:34:10 PM
Quote from: vipond50 on January 25, 2008, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 25, 2008, 11:12:38 AM
@CLaNZeR,
Seems to me not only the dampers have to be around the stator equidistant from the other two stators but the first video shows that one of the dampers is closer to the stator than the other damper, not as in the picture you showed here.
Sean
Besides the Drawing being incorrect i.e. Stator layout, are u using brass to retain the Dampers instead of Nylon or plastic ?
Other than that the rep looks Great ;D
Good Luck
Bill
Also did U base your rotor layout off of Jason's drawing or the original Mea's provided in the PDF?
Thanks again
Bill
I have not got a link, but i am sure Al replaced the nylon for brass as he had problems with the nylon holding up ..
Quote from: evil-doer on January 25, 2008, 01:11:20 PM
Quote from: blue_energy on January 25, 2008, 12:55:10 PM
No - wait. That can't be right. 270 degrees per strobe would imply 810 degrees of rotation by the rotor per frame, which would imply 2.25 revolutions in the stator per frame - but the stator clearly has moved a multiple of 360 degrees. Maybe it's 270 degrees per frame and 1080 for the stator after all. But, regardless, my question regarding acceleration and deceleration doesn't really change regardless how many actual (albeit multiple) revolutions the stator makes per frame.
every 90 degrees the rotor turns, the stator turns 360. its a 4:1 gear ratio.
Yes, you're right. 810 * 4 / 360 = 9.0 stator revolutions. No remainder.
But, leaving my poor arithmetic skills aside for a moment, what about my question - doesn't anyone see something odd in the continuous nature of the stator revolution? This entire project is hinged upon the notion that by varying the relationship between the rotor and stator magnets 'sticky spots' could be minimized. That would imply that the stator magnet would have to slow down and speed up to avoid facing them directly. But - it doesn't seem to in the video. Can that be explained by the strobe?
Quote from: blue_energy on January 25, 2008, 02:02:45 PMThat would imply that the stator magnet would have to slow down and speed up to avoid facing them directly. But - it doesn't seem to in the video. Can that be explained by the strobe?
I dont think there is enough information to determine it either way, the variation in speed could be so slight as to be unnoticeable.
Quote from: Craigy on January 25, 2008, 01:56:36 PM
Quote from: vipond50 on January 25, 2008, 12:34:10 PM
Quote from: vipond50 on January 25, 2008, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 25, 2008, 11:12:38 AM
@CLaNZeR,
Seems to me not only the dampers have to be around the stator equidistant from the other two stators but the first video shows that one of the dampers is closer to the stator than the other damper, not as in the picture you showed here.
Sean
Besides the Drawing being incorrect i.e. Stator layout, are u using brass to retain the Dampers instead of Nylon or plastic ?
UOther than that the rep looks Great ;D
Good Luck
Bill
Also did U base your rotor layout off of Jason's drawing or the original Mea's provided in the PDF?
Thanks again
Bill
I have not got a link, but i am sure Al replaced the nylon for brass as he had problems with the nylon holding up ..
Hi Craigy
Understandable, but the Pic's of the running device (updated center shaft and test pulleys) shows plastic not brass for the damper retainers
After all Sean is going for an accurate rep as i understand it.
Regards
Bill
Quote from: blue_energy on January 25, 2008, 02:02:45 PM
Quote from: evil-doer on January 25, 2008, 01:11:20 PM
Quote from: blue_energy on January 25, 2008, 12:55:10 PM
No - wait. That can't be right. 270 degrees per strobe would imply 810 degrees of rotation by the rotor per frame, which would imply 2.25 revolutions in the stator per frame - but the stator clearly has moved a multiple of 360 degrees. Maybe it's 270 degrees per frame and 1080 for the stator after all. But, regardless, my question regarding acceleration and deceleration doesn't really change regardless how many actual (albeit multiple) revolutions the stator makes per frame.
every 90 degrees the rotor turns, the stator turns 360. its a 4:1 gear ratio.
Yes, you're right. 810 * 4 / 360 = 9.0 stator revolutions. No remainder.
But, leaving my poor arithmetic skills aside for a moment, what about my question - doesn't anyone see something odd in the continuous nature of the stator revolution? This entire project is hinged upon the notion that by varying the relationship between the rotor and stator magnets 'sticky spots' could be minimized. That would imply that the stator magnet would have to slow down and speed up to avoid facing them directly. But - it doesn't seem to in the video. Can that be explained by the strobe?
Idonno... could that be happening between strobe / frames? over my head... (where's CSI when you need them? ;) )
Quote from: RunningBare on January 25, 2008, 02:09:18 PM
Quote from: blue_energy on January 25, 2008, 02:02:45 PMThat would imply that the stator magnet would have to slow down and speed up to avoid facing them directly. But - it doesn't seem to in the video. Can that be explained by the strobe?
I dont think there is enough information to determine it either way, the variation in speed could be so slight as to be unnoticeable.
does anyone have a way to tie lines to the rotor and stator on the vid clip so that we can get a better idea of the relationship between the two in motion?....
Here's a simple analysis (by using
FEMM) of the torque of the rotor covering
45 degrees of the motion (then it repeats itself because of the symmetry).
When the fulcrum of the rotor and of the stator are connected with a line, and one of the magnets on the rotor is perpendicular to this line, the stator position shows a difference of about
25 degrees in respect of that line (as in the third Alsetalokin video). This fact is included in the simulation (visible here: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1060658/oc_mpmm_magnetic_simulation/ (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1060658/oc_mpmm_magnetic_simulation/)).
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faycu15.webshots.com%2Fimage%2F42894%2F2000063521856033943_rs.jpg&hash=11c6d774f78eab082d52c7c4b623c3ff7a81a50e)
The simulation data and graph are included in the
attached Excel document, and they show a total
positive torque (it should be 0 if there were no self-rotation!). :o
Sorry for any mistake I did! ::)
[EDIT] I made a little mistake in the Excel file, now the total number of samples is 449 (not 451) and the total torque is correct (not 222 but 11467!!) - I typed a ";" instead of a ":" in the sum formula ;D [/EDIT](https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faycu40.webshots.com%2Fimage%2F41399%2F2005455481816571672_rs.jpg&hash=2bf5ca488ce43f4c1c35ac4673e0d0391dead24c)
so the stator is supplying torque?
Quote from: geodan on January 25, 2008, 03:24:20 PM
so the stator is supplying torque?
I would simply say that in this configuration the rotor receives a push from the combined magnetic field of rotor and stator.
In attachment, the
FEMM simulation file and the
LUA script I used to automate the process. :)
Quote from: niente on January 25, 2008, 03:08:48 PM
Here's a simple analysis (by using FEMM) of the torque of the rotor covering 45 degrees of the motion (then it repeats itself because of the symmetry).
When the fulcrum of the rotor and of the stator are connected with a line, and one of the magnets on the rotor is perpendicular to this line, the stator position shows a difference of about 25 degrees in respect of that line (as in the third Alsetalokin video). This fact is included in the simulation (visible here: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1060658/oc_mpmm_magnetic_simulation/ (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1060658/oc_mpmm_magnetic_simulation/)).
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faycu15.webshots.com%2Fimage%2F42894%2F2000063521856033943_rs.jpg&hash=11c6d774f78eab082d52c7c4b623c3ff7a81a50e)
The simulation data and graph are included in the attached Excel document, and they show a total positive torque (it should be 0 if there were no self-rotation!). :o
Sorry for any mistake I did! ::)
Verry interesting! I wonder if it would be possible to do this with an 18" rotor with all 13 stators in place, using gearwise rotation at the same rotation ratio. And could you post the FEMM/lua scripts as well?
Hi
What if the rods are turn different in rotor, and if stator n are up, s are down all 3 or different ?
then it is a lot of combinations to test or have i wrong? ::) ::) ::)
Regards
Quote from: niente on January 25, 2008, 03:44:13 PM
Quote from: geodan on January 25, 2008, 03:24:20 PM
so the stator is supplying torque?
I would simply say that in this configuration the rotor receives a push from the combined magnetic field of rotor and stator.
In attachment, the FEMM simulation file and the LUA script I used to automate the process. :)
Very impressive.
I have been following this thread for about 4 days now and have a suggestion based upon a "vision" I just had.
What I am picturing is a simple and ancient flyweight assembly on the rotor to govern the optimal speed upon "latchup" of the stator.
It would simply be a braking mechanism to keep the rotor from overreving and having the stator lose sync due to the overrev.
CLaNZeR's setup would be best suited for this vision as the "brake drum" could be attached to the top crossbar.
One could also measure the heat being emitted from that also with a thermocouple to get an indication of energy output.
Anyway the above is just a thought for "down the road".
Keep up the excellent work guys. ;)
@ezzob,
I don't think that's the case. You may try it yourself--take two of these magnets and see that when they are repelling when placed parallel this won't change if you turn them around their axes. You can also measure the kgauss and see that there's a midpoint line on the cylindrical surface where the sign changes the same way all around. The shape of the field around the magnet may not be symmetric, though, and that's the main problem. Also, as I said a while ago, I'll be doing some experiments probably on Sunday with a batch of virgin magnets (that I've not used in my machine) and will compare their behavior to the rotor magnets I've already used to see if there's any discrepancy along the lines of eddy current degradation mentioned by Stefan. I saw something strange when performing the test suggested by @MeggerMan.
@MeggerMan,
Have you tried your repulsion test on rotor magnets which have already been in the rotor while carrying out experiments? Is the sameness of behavior when testing them SS verusus NN retained? And in general, does this 31mm remain the same?
Quote from: 0c on January 25, 2008, 03:47:14 PM
Quote from: niente on January 25, 2008, 03:08:48 PM
Here's a simple analysis (by using FEMM) of the torque of the rotor covering 45 degrees of the motion (then it repeats itself because of the symmetry).
When the fulcrum of the rotor and of the stator are connected with a line, and one of the magnets on the rotor is perpendicular to this line, the stator position shows a difference of about 25 degrees in respect of that line (as in the third Alsetalokin video). This fact is included in the simulation (visible here: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1060658/oc_mpmm_magnetic_simulation/ (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1060658/oc_mpmm_magnetic_simulation/)).
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faycu15.webshots.com%2Fimage%2F42894%2F2000063521856033943_rs.jpg&hash=11c6d774f78eab082d52c7c4b623c3ff7a81a50e)
The simulation data and graph are included in the attached Excel document, and they show a total positive torque (it should be 0 if there were no self-rotation!). :o
Sorry for any mistake I did! ::)
Verry interesting! I wonder if it would be possible to do this with an 18" rotor with all 13 stators in place, using gearwise rotation at the same rotation ratio. And could you post the FEMM/lua scripts as well?
Yes Oc that sim would be interesting to see the net gain of all 13 Stat's or can we assume the 220 ? is multiplied by 13 for the total net.
Best Regards
Bill
Hi Niente,
Quote from: niente on January 25, 2008, 03:44:13 PM
I would simply say that in this configuration the rotor receives a push from the combined magnetic field of rotor and stator.
Very impressive lua script, very compact and to the point!
So group 1 (rotor) is rotated 45 Deg. and group 2 (stator) is rotated 180 Deg., the stator is rotated about the point x=105, y=0.
My laptop takes 4minutes 17 secs for 10 steps so 450 will take about 3 hrs 13 mins.
The total extra torque is 222 but this is the gain from 450 steps, so the average gain is about 0.5N per step - I presume the unit is Newtons?
I think I am right in saying that 0.5N is the equivalent hanging 25gram weight on a piece of string pulling on the circumference of the rotor and the same for the stator?
So the torque on the stator is very small compared to the rotor because of its relatively small diameter, therefore the bearings on the stator are so very very important.
The depth of simulation is 1 inch, which is a bit deep, maybe we should re-run with a depth of say 0.25 to 0.35 inches(to allow for the deeper stator magnet) and see what the total comes out as.
Also the scale is a bit odd, the rotor is massive 6.5 feet in diameter and the stator ring is 10" across (broken fingers, ribs, legs spring to mind), which may explain the peak torque of 1000N (100Kg push/pull).
[edit] Just started a re-run in mm instead of inches, seems about right size wise, but the torque is 1400 times less, so that 222 becomes 0.16 and that gives an average gain on each step of 0.00035 N, so thats 0.035 of a gram push/pull on the rotor/stator. Have you tried different start angles for the stator?
Maybe we can push the gain up a bit.[/edit]
Regards
Rob
Quote from: niente on January 25, 2008, 03:08:48 PM
Here's a simple analysis (by using FEMM) of the torque of the rotor covering 45 degrees of the motion (then it repeats itself because of the symmetry).
the first and last frames do not match up at all. the waves are completely different. could you make one that does 90 degrees for a full rotation of the stator?
Quote from: evil-doer on January 25, 2008, 05:03:59 PM
Quote from: niente on January 25, 2008, 03:08:48 PM
Here's a simple analysis (by using FEMM) of the torque of the rotor covering 45 degrees of the motion (then it repeats itself because of the symmetry).
the first and last frames do not match up at all. the waves are completely different. could you make one that does 90 degrees for a full rotation of the stator?
Hi Evil,
What graph are you looking at, first and last points are almost spot on the same....???
Anyway what you can do is just run this script (set the properties to mm first) and wait.....for about 7 hours ;) :
for i=0,900,1 do
mi_selectgroup(1)
mi_moverotate(0,0,-0.1)
mi_selectgroup(2)
mi_moverotate(105,0,-0.4)
mi_analyze(0)
mi_loadsolution()
mo_hidemesh()
mo_showdensityplot(0,0,1,0,"mag")
mo_showcontourplot(40,-0.1,0.2)
nome = "ocmpmm"..i..".bmp"
mo_savemetafile(nome)
mo_groupselectblock(1)
mo_seteditmode("area")
forza = mo_blockintegral(22)
c=appendto("ocmpmm.txt")
write(c,forza)
write(c,"\n")
flush(c)
end
Regards
Rob
Hi,
if you don't care about making a movie of the simulation, you can avoid to save screenshots ;).
Here's a simplified (and faster) script:
for i=0,900,1 do
mi_selectgroup(1)
mi_moverotate(0,0,-0.1)
mi_selectgroup(2)
mi_moverotate(105,0,-0.4)
mi_analyze(0)
mi_loadsolution()
mo_groupselectblock(1)
mo_seteditmode("area")
force = mo_blockintegral(22)
c=appendto("ocmpmm.txt")
write(c,force)
write(c,"\n")
flush(c)
end
Now I'm working on a more precise model and simulation, and maybe I'll add all the 13 stators...
Quote from: MeggerMan on January 25, 2008, 05:15:24 PM
Anyway what you can do is just run this script (set the properties to mm first) and wait.....for about 7 hours ;) :
...
Regards
Rob
er. ok i have the program, but i dont understand how to input that script. the only script stuff i see is lua scripts. i added that to a text file and called it .lua and it didnt work. how do i load it?
and sorry, i was talking about the video, not the graph
@Evil,
Quote from: evil-doer on January 25, 2008, 05:23:06 PM
er. ok i have the program, but i dont understand how to input that script. the only script stuff i see is lua scripts. i added that to a text file and called it .lua and it didnt work. how do i load it?
and sorry, i was talking about the video, not the graph
Easy peasy lemon squeasy:
1. File -> open "ocmpmm01.FEM"
2. Problem [change Length units to mm and set the depth to 10]
3. File -> Open lua script "ocmpmm.lua"
Also be careful not to click the white workspace or you will leave an unassign node (small square), if you do, then use the undo button.
It will run automatically.
Use the script that niente posted to exclude the bitmaps being saved.
Regards
Rob
Quote from: MeggerMan on January 25, 2008, 05:35:28 PM
1. File -> open "ocmpmm01.FEM"
doh, im sorry, where is the fem file?
nevermind, i see now
Quote from: MeggerMan on January 25, 2008, 05:35:28 PM
Use the script that niente posted to exclude the bitmaps being saved.
sorry one last question, i WANT the bitmaps for an animation, but they only have a single field line per magnet, if any. they look nothing like the video posted earlier?
Quote from: niente on January 25, 2008, 03:08:48 PM
Here's a simple analysis (by using FEMM) of the torque of the rotor covering 45 degrees of the motion (then it repeats itself because of the symmetry).
When the fulcrum of the rotor and of the stator are connected with a line, and one of the magnets on the rotor is perpendicular to this line, the stator position shows a difference of about 25 degrees in respect of that line (as in the third Alsetalokin video). This fact is included in the simulation (visible here: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1060658/oc_mpmm_magnetic_simulation/ (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1060658/oc_mpmm_magnetic_simulation/)).
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faycu15.webshots.com%2Fimage%2F42894%2F2000063521856033943_rs.jpg&hash=11c6d774f78eab082d52c7c4b623c3ff7a81a50e)
The simulation data and graph are included in the attached Excel document, and they show a total positive torque (it should be 0 if there were no self-rotation!). :o
Sorry for any mistake I did! ::)
Please forgive me ahead of time with this question, but aren't the lines of force on the stator 180 degrees out of sync with Al's third video?
In attachment the files needed for the 13 stators simulation (not run yet). I calculated the initial orientation of every stator magnet according to the position of the rotor (they're not casual, but in latch... :-) ).
Before running the simulation you can modify the mash to obtain a more precise result.
Good luck! ;D
@niente,
I will try running with the stator only 2mm away from the rotor, may be able to get it closer.
This is to see if I can increase the torque.
I think it will be impossile to sync by hand but once synced will create loads of torque.
With 13 stators all in sync the output will be impressive.
I was wondering if Al has tried to sync the stator, wait for it to reach its running speed, then using a screw thread, adjust the distance to decrease the stator/rotor gap, in theory the speed should increase as the torque increases.
I suspect that the reason he cannot get the stator closer is because the stator is too jumpy with the increased field strength and the sync speed may increase as a result.
Regards
Rob
Quote from: niente on January 25, 2008, 03:08:48 PM
Here's a simple analysis (by using FEMM) of the torque of the rotor covering 45 degrees of the motion (then it repeats itself because of the symmetry).
When the fulcrum of the rotor and of the stator are connected with a line, and one of the magnets on the rotor is perpendicular to this line, the stator position shows a difference of about 25 degrees in respect of that line (as in the third Alsetalokin video). This fact is included in the simulation (visible here: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1060658/oc_mpmm_magnetic_simulation/ (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1060658/oc_mpmm_magnetic_simulation/)).
Hi Niente,
Would you mind posting this animation to YouTube so I can embed it at PESWiki? I don't like sending people to metacafe because of all the smutty video thumbnails they offer on the side. YouTube is much cleaner.
Or you could send it to me by email and I could upload it.
Thanks for pulling this together.
Sterling
Quote from: niente on January 25, 2008, 06:27:20 PM
In attachment the files needed for the 13 stators simulation (not run yet). I calculated the initial orientation of every stator magnet according to the position of the rotor (they're not casual, but in latch... :-) ).
Before running the simulation you can modify the mash to obtain a more precise result.
Good luck! ;D
i tried running your thing then got several errors after about an hour. couldnt write to file, then couldnt find poly somethingorother.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on January 25, 2008, 09:37:58 AM
ummm just realised I layed up the stators as per jdo's cad drawing, but I think it may be wrong.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fdiff.jpg&hash=84d01b7635b2bab18043d485b4585d87f70688ff)
Cheers
Sean.
Hi CLaNZeR,
You are right. That drawing was incorrect. A bunch of other people pointed that out right after I posted the original pictures and I have since replaced the incorrect ones. You can see the correct pictures here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg68853.html#msg68853
God Bless,
Jason O
@JFK or anyone else with a good ideas.
Try Google SketchUp http://sketchup.google.com/download.html Or at a minimum draw it out on graph paper. I find it easier to follow if there are pictures to go along with the words.
Yes mikeytown2, a picture is worth a thousand words... I am not an artist, but I did find a picture of flyweights used on a model steam engine to regulate the steam pressure.
Instead of regulating steam flow, this would activate a friction brake assembly... the faster it spins the more braking action would be applied.
With the braking action beginning at the "sweet spot" ( the most torque ) of RPM's... wherever that ends up being.
Based on Al's video my guess would be around 850-900 RPM's. ( rotor speed )
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg167.imageshack.us%2Fimg167%2F3204%2Fflyweightshq5.jpg&hash=2e98d1418a0cae4e01f33750a3559f12dd10c116)
What I had pictured was something like this scaled down and mounted directly to the rotor spindle.
.
If you wanted to get fancy, you could make these weights out of magnets and put a pickup coil
( with a full wave bridge rectifier and capacitor ) in close proximity to them and drive an LED with that.
That would prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that it is creating an output with no input. :D
But like I said, that is a thought for the future... let's let the engineers here get an overrev situation perfected first. ;)
Hello All,
Well, the good news (for a moment! LOL) Was that my machined parts came in. I put it all together, and started to look for some of the things I had seen on my self built wooden one.
I notice that my stator magnets simply stuttered as I rev'd up the rotor. And then I measured the distance from edge of Stator, to edge of rotor. Distance was 8 mm. It should be 5 mm.
To make a long story short, they cut Hanks, Jason's and my rotor 3/8" short. Go figure! :(
Hank is going to have him recut and resend our proper sized one.
The base is correct, and my stators are great. N35 magnets. Bearings for the stators are super precision ABEC 7's. Very nice feel to them. Dual rotor bearings, very nice.
Concerned about slippage where the delprin slip over the stator bearing. But I will wait for new rotor before addressing that.
So we wait another few days. ;)
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: evil-doer on January 25, 2008, 08:04:07 PM
Quote from: niente on January 25, 2008, 06:27:20 PM
In attachment the files needed for the 13 stators simulation (not run yet). I calculated the initial orientation of every stator magnet according to the position of the rotor (they're not casual, but in latch... :-) ).
Before running the simulation you can modify the mash to obtain a more precise result.
Good luck! ;D
i tried running your thing then got several errors after about an hour. couldnt write to file, then couldnt find poly somethingorother.
Ran twice. Failed twice in mo_blockintegral(). Output 766 lines first time, 765 lines the second time. Error message said it couldn't select the area. Checked task manager while running, no shortage of memory or disk space.
@Bruce_TPU
i hate to bother you but could you post a picture of one of your stators....or explain how they are put together
ive been having the worst time figuring out how to make them.... :-[
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on January 25, 2008, 11:47:52 PM
Hello All,
Well, the good news (for a moment! LOL) Was that my machined parts came in. I put it all together, and started to look for some of the things I had seen on my self built wooden one.
I notice that my stator magnets simply stuttered as I rev'd up the rotor. And then I measured the distance from edge of Stator, to edge of rotor. Distance was 8 mm. It should be 5 mm.
To make a long story short, they cut Hanks, Jason's and my rotor 3/8" short. Go figure! :(
Hank is going to have him recut and resend our proper sized one.
The base is correct, and my stators are great. N35 magnets. Bearings for the stators are super precision ABEC 7's. Very nice feel to them. Dual rotor bearings, very nice.
Concerned about slippage where the delprin slip over the stator bearing. But I will wait for new rotor before addressing that.
So we wait another few days. ;)
Cheers,
Bruce
Nice rig Bruce, really to bad they muffed the rotor Dee's. Hoping for success for all.
Take Care
Bill
Quote from: crash_uni8 on January 26, 2008, 12:06:33 AM
@Bruce_TPU
i hate to bother you but could you post a picture of one of your stators....or explain how they are put together
ive been having the worst time figuring out how to make them.... :-[
Hey Crash,
Base is threaded for 4-40. I use a 1" 4-40 brass screw through the ABEC 7 bearing. The head holds the inner race of the bearing firm. A brass nut goes on the other side of the bearing and is tightened.
This then is screwed into the threaded base, until the brass nut contacts the top of the base.
The circular N42 magnet is glued inside of my delpin holder (Great Job on that Hank!) This then is placed on the bearing, which fits snugly into the bottom of the Delprin.
JDO300 has drawings that show that part. If someone could put together an assembly diagram, that would probably help some of the replicators, as well.
I hope that helps! (If I had DSL, I would post lots of pics to assist. It just takes too long with my dial up)
@ Bill
Thanks. I too hope for success. I really think N35's or N38's with better (not heavier) bearings should help. Have you had any more time to test?
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: niente on January 25, 2008, 03:08:48 PM
Here's a simple analysis (by using FEMM) of the torque of the rotor covering 45 degrees of the motion (then it repeats itself because of the symmetry).
[...]
Your boundary is way too close for FEMM to give you accurate torque readings. I think you'll find that the extra torque disappears when you move it far away.
Thanks for providing the source, though!
Cheers,
Mr. Entropy
OK, I just ordered some 6061-T6 Aluminum Alloy, from:
http://www.discountsteel.com/index.cfm/go/main.itemDisplay/itemID/54.htm
I believe that the softer, pure aluminum bar from Home Depot, will dampen too much, (excess of eddy currents, too much braking applied). The alloy has not just Teflon, but also copper in it's composition. So the braking effect will be identical as with Al's setup.
I believe that Sean's test will show a longer run time with the alloy. (even if not by much, for the wind down test.)
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on January 26, 2008, 12:25:16 AM
Quote from: crash_uni8 on January 26, 2008, 12:06:33 AM
@Bruce_TPU
i hate to bother you but could you post a picture of one of your stators....or explain how they are put together
ive been having the worst time figuring out how to make them.... :-[
Hey Crash,
Base is threaded for 4-40. I use a 1" 4-40 brass screw through the ABEC 7 bearing. The head holds the inner race of the bearing firm. A brass nut goes on the other side of the bearing and is tightened.
This then is screwed into the threaded base, until the brass nut contacts the top of the base.
The circular N42 magnet is glued inside of my delpin holder (Great Job on that Hank!) This then is placed on the bearing, which fits snugly into the bottom of the Delprin.
JDO300 has drawings that show that part. If someone could put together an assembly diagram, that would probably help some of the replicators, as well.
I hope that helps! (If I had DSL, I would post lots of pics to assist. It just takes too long with my dial up)
@ Bill
Thanks. I too hope for success. I really think N35's or N38's with better (not heavier) bearings should help. Have you had any more time to test?
Cheers,
Bruce
@Bruce
In the middle of a New rig with different Mea's for the radius, of coarse it is base off Al's spec's, So when the time comes we'll see. I'll post the data regardless of the out come.
Also waiting on parts too ........
HI Ho, Hi Ho off to watch a Movie I go
Later Bill
Does the FEMM take into account that the rotor magnets are not at the same height as the stator magnet as per reference to Al's comments re-posted into this thread? http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg72507.html#msg72507
Would not a difference in height change the strength of repulsion and attraction?
One other thing that concerns me is the amount of up/down movement in the Rotor and/or the stator can do as there could be a slight push from gravity as one of wheels drops at a latching or null point. Though the speeds at which these are turning the gravity effect should be minimal.
I'm sorry but the Excel file I posted (relative to my first simulation)
wasn't correct: the total torque seems to be
11467, not 222! (I typed a ";" instead of a ":" in the sum formula) ;D .... anyway it seems too much .... ??? Why???
In attachment the corrected file.
Quote from: PolyMatrix on January 26, 2008, 02:38:58 AM
Does the FEMM take into account that the rotor magnets are not at the same height as the stator magnet as per reference to Al's comments re-posted into this thread?
No, the FEMM software works in 2D, but one can simulate the minor interaction by decreasing the magnets power.
@niente,
Much better results now then, I never spotted that error either.
You need to change the problem to mm not inches, and the depth to about 10mm.
AFAIK at the moment you a simulating an 80" rotor with 10" stator ring magnets.
25N average torque is good, but thats a big rotor to spin and you will need a big finger to overcome the 100Kg twisting action on that stator. ;)
regards
Rob
Does anyone else notice the stator magnet is wobbling in a circle thats opposite the direction of spin in the stroboscope video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHBIXjkUrK8
Quote from: niente on January 26, 2008, 05:13:01 AM
I'm sorry but the Excel file I posted (relative to my first simulation) wasn't correct: the total torque seems to be 11467, not 222! (I typed a ";" instead of a ":" in the sum formula) ;D .... anyway it seems too much .... ??? Why???
In attachment the corrected file.
@ niente
First of all: nice simulations. These could help in understanding the effect we are looking for.
I'll try your initiated files to vary a few thinks myself. Thanks for your effort so far.
You called your outcome torque, but what it really is, is the integral of the torque over 1/8 of one rotor revolution.
To get the average torque over 1/8 th rotor revolution you have to divide again by 451, I think.
This leads to an average torque of around 26 then.
Note: If I am not mistaken, the simulated rotor consists of air.
So, we should be very cautious with the figures from these simulations.
25 Nm at 1250 rpm is about 3.4 kW of power.
I don't think any power excess in the original Alsetalokin mpmm replication would be over a few milliwatts, if not small fractions of them.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=H4eZJtEeZVc
lots of people were talking about the strobe vid being too shaky so i tried to make it more stable. enjoy
Hmmmmm.. 2nd post. http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,528.0.html
Quote from: RunningBare on January 26, 2008, 09:06:50 AM
Does anyone else notice the stator magnet is wobbling in a circle thats opposite the direction of spin in the stroboscope video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHBIXjkUrK8
Seems like push-pull at the repulsion-attraction points, I can't actually see it forming it's own circle (yet, I'll be staring some more).
The only bit of this device I have replicated so far, in my own junkyard style, is a stator assembly using 1/2" id brass tube from the hobby shop, the right ring mags, a nylon ring spacer, the right socket head cap screws, and a few different types of bearings.
This is a wobbly setup, I guess radial bearings aren't made to keep things steady this way.
If I think about it, a push-pull, combined with the rotation must form some kind of second level cycle.
Quote from: JFK on January 26, 2008, 06:08:47 PM
Hmmmmm.. 2nd post. http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,528.0.html
I didn't know @Jdo300 had posted this and that's only natural, at that time I didn't even know research was going on in this area. As far as I remember sometime at the beginning of 2006 I hit upon a discussion on something called SMOT somewhere on the net only by chance seeing a bunch of guys viciously attacking someone. My first reaction was 'oh, not again' thinking this is another one of these internet silly claims. However, upon a second look and a closer inspection that changed. And ... you know the rest of the story. And, by the way, I have these plans as well, unfortunately never bracing myself to really make the device. The link now is http://www.grandpawsshop.com.
I am not sure that many people are aware of this but the ultimate setup of Al's + OC's motor seemed vaguely familiar. I started looking around a while back I and came across this setup that CLaNZeR (Sean) tried duplicating last year.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/kissPM.htm
I did mention this to CLaNZeR and he wrote back "Too much friction using Polycarbonate as gears really". Too bad as it looks like the next step in order to get perfect timing.
QuoteI am not sure that many people are aware of this but the ultimate setup of Al's + OC's motor seemed vaguely familiar. I started looking around a while back I and came across this setup that CLaNZeR (Sean) tried duplicating last year.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/kissPM.htm
I did mention this to CLaNZeR and he wrote back "Too much friction using Polycarbonate as gears really". Too bad as it looks like the next step in order to get perfect timing.
Not knowing how much friction would generally be permissible with all those contributory synchronised stators, I can't help but wonder whether those lightweight RC helicopter tail-drive belts and off-the-shelf toothed shafts could be put to good use for something like this.
All the stator cogs could use a suitable toothed shaft of any reasonable size (as the rotors only need to maintain synchronicity) so one peripheral belt would sort that out, thereby requiring one further belt (or even a single meshed cog drive) between the main rotor and one of the stators.
Just a thought ;)
FunkyJive
@FunkyJive,
You mean something like this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=wcy0tedYBMg, That's the most interesting rendition so far of the well known idea we're trying to reproduce. The difference in our case now is that there's someone real who's willing to talk to the replicators to a certain extent.
And, note, the magnets in that video are ceramic and not neos, if we heed Stefan's concern about the degradation of the neos.
Quote from: niente on January 25, 2008, 03:08:48 PM
Here's a simple analysis (by using FEMM) of the torque of the rotor covering 45 degrees of the motion (then it repeats itself because of the symmetry).
When the fulcrum of the rotor and of the stator are connected with a line, and one of the magnets on the rotor is perpendicular to this line, the stator position shows a difference of about 25 degrees in respect of that line (as in the third Alsetalokin video). This fact is included in the simulation (visible here: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1060658/oc_mpmm_magnetic_simulation/ (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1060658/oc_mpmm_magnetic_simulation/)).
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faycu15.webshots.com%2Fimage%2F42894%2F2000063521856033943_rs.jpg&hash=11c6d774f78eab082d52c7c4b623c3ff7a81a50e)
The simulation data and graph are included in the attached Excel document, and they show a total positive torque (it should be 0 if there were no self-rotation!). :o
Sorry for any mistake I did! ::)
Hi Niente,
There is a problem with your simulation setup. If you look at the square boundary around your rotor disk, you will notice that all of the field lines intersect the boundary at 90 degrees. This shows one of two things. First, the boundary is way to close to the problem region. This distorts the fields and will produce inaccurate results. Secondly, for magnetic simulations, it is best to use a circular boundary and boundary conditions that approximate an infinite problem region to get the most accurate results.
For my simulations, I wrote a simple LUA script that creates a circular boundary of the desired radius and automatically calculates and applies the correct boundary condition for the problem. It also adds a block label set to "Air" for the problem region. Though you will have to go in and set the mesh density to what you want. I have attached the script file below.
Also. I have made a simulation of the rotor disk (to scale) with a single stator magnet for everyone to play around with. I wrote an accompanying script file that will rotate both the rotor and stator magnet either clockwise or counter-clockwise depending on the settings in the script. You can set the initial starting angle of the stator and can also change the gear ratio (at the moment it is set to 4:1). It will also print out a data file with torque values at each position of the wheel. You can just copy and paste into Excel and make a graph from there for further analysis. The only thing is I don't set the initial position of the rotor so if the simulation gets stopped for any reason, you'll have to manually select the rotor magnets and rotate them back to the starting position you want. This script file is also included with the simulation file and the boundary setting script. I tried to make it easy to understand but If anyone has any questions don't hesitate to ask.
God Bless,
Jason O
Quote from: Jdo300 on January 27, 2008, 03:59:35 AM
Quote from: niente on January 25, 2008, 03:08:48 PM
Here's a simple analysis (by using FEMM) of the torque of the rotor covering 45 degrees of the motion (then it repeats itself because of the symmetry).
When the fulcrum of the rotor and of the stator are connected with a line, and one of the magnets on the rotor is perpendicular to this line, the stator position shows a difference of about 25 degrees in respect of that line (as in the third Alsetalokin video). This fact is included in the simulation (visible here: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1060658/oc_mpmm_magnetic_simulation/ (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1060658/oc_mpmm_magnetic_simulation/)).
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faycu15.webshots.com%2Fimage%2F42894%2F2000063521856033943_rs.jpg&hash=11c6d774f78eab082d52c7c4b623c3ff7a81a50e)
The simulation data and graph are included in the attached Excel document, and they show a total positive torque (it should be 0 if there were no self-rotation!). :o
Sorry for any mistake I did! ::)
Hi Niente,
There is a problem with your simulation setup. If you look at the square boundary around your rotor disk, you will notice that all of the field lines intersect the boundary at 90 degrees. This shows one of two things. First, the boundary is way to close to the problem region. This distorts the fields and will produce inaccurate results. Secondly, for magnetic simulations, it is best to use a circular boundary and boundary conditions that approximate an infinite problem region to get the most accurate results.
For my simulations, I wrote a simple LUA script that creates a circular boundary of the desired radius and automatically calculates and applies the correct boundary condition for the problem. It also adds a block label set to "Air" for the problem region. Though you will have to go in and set the mesh density to what you want. I have attached the script file below.
Also. I have made a simulation of the rotor disk (to scale) with a single stator magnet for everyone to play around with. I wrote an accompanying script file that will rotate both the rotor and stator magnet either clockwise or counter-clockwise depending on the settings in the script. You can set the initial starting angle of the stator and can also change the gear ratio (at the moment it is set to 4:1). It will also print out a data file with torque values at each position of the wheel. You can just copy and paste into Excel and make a graph from there for further analysis. The only thing is I don't set the initial position of the rotor so if the simulation gets stopped for any reason, you'll have to manually select the rotor magnets and rotate them back to the starting position you want. This script file is also included with the simulation file and the boundary setting script. I tried to make it easy to understand but If anyone has any questions don't hesitate to ask.
God Bless,
Jason O
Thanks Jason
Best Regards
Bill
QuoteYou mean something like this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=wcy0tedYBMg, That's the most interesting rendition so far of the well known idea we're trying to reproduce. The difference in our case now is that there's someone real who's willing to talk to the replicators to a certain extent.
And, note, the magnets in that video are ceramic and not neos, if we heed Stefan's concern about the degradation of the neos.
Hi Omnibus.
Thanks for the video. The Lego touch makes an amusing statement of
cheeky simplicity - though I'll avoid passing judgement on its validity.
However, if such a construction were for real then you could imagine the headlines...
"Boy with Lego set challenges science as we know it" ;D
The belt arrangement is something akin to what I had in-mind, though reducing frictional losses by requiring just two belts - one between the main rotor and one of the pulleys (this maintaining the correct registration and setting Rotor-Stator gear ratio), with the peripheral belt simply to keep any number of stators in sync.
Perhaps easier to build from available off-the-shelf parts, though probably too lossy still :-\
I hadn't seen Stefan's comments regarding neo magnets and possibility of degradation, though I'd guess the electrically conductive nature of neo's (as opposed to ceramic) could also have some small impact due to dynamically shifting field patterns about the magnets - as per the effect induced by the dampers.
FunkyJive
@FunkyJive,
The biggest problem, mostly psychological in terms of violation of CoE, is the fact that so far there has been no independent verification of any claim, not only the Lego motor claim, for such devices, except for SMOT. This time, as I said, the situation is slightly different because the person making such claim didn?t disappear as soon as he made the claim (as, for instance, the Lego person did) and is somewhat cooperative. What the outcome of the replication effort will be is only for time to tell.
As for Stefan?s concern, take a look here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg72826.html#msg72826. I?ll be doing some experiments today or tomorrow to see if there is any difference between the neo magnets I?ve already worked with in @alsetalokin?s device and the virgin ones I just got and will report data. However, even if there is degradation of the neos due to electrical conductivity this project is worth pursuing further (with non-conductive magnets) should we see the acceleration claimed.
How many replicators have been careful to use ferromagnetic bearings and to put them right up close to the stator magnet like Al did? I've been thinking recently that the magnetization of the stator bearing, and especially its saturation, may be very important to the effect, since all the other ferromagnetic materials involved are very hard.
Cheers,
Mr. Entropy
Thanks Omnibus.
Incidentally it was one of Stefan's posts that originally caught my attentions for this forum, and I agree wholeheartedly with both the psychological battles and the need to lend support to others endeavouring to replicate ones ideas so that they can be independently verified.
I'm currently awaiting some diametrically magnetised neo's that were conveniently available from a vendor in the US (mentioned earlier in this forum topic), as I have designs on a system of my own - with parts courtesy of eBay and ex-Russian military stock :) My RC helicopter parts will provide the hardware and bearings for early test purposes, which also suits me as I have precious little time available to construct anything too complex due to other new-science projects.
If I can produce something that's both mechanically simple and works then it's my intention that others should be able to replicate it easily from off-the-shelf parts where possible, and I'll certainly be around to support it with material lists and advice - though still just a theoretical model until I've built and tried it.
I'm truly looking forward to such a time that someone is able to get one of these magnetic motors working, and I look forward to your findings with much interest.
All the best,
FunkyJive
Mr Entropy I'd been thinking on exactly the same lines, I drew the drawing below of a polarized bearing, with the intention of animating/analysing it but my graphics skills don't stretch that far, but worth consideration.
Jox
Has anyone considered this?
http://www.geomancy.org/sacred-geometry/earth-moon/index.html
more found in the "a little book of coincidence"
Google this.
.
Quote from: paulshroom on January 27, 2008, 03:43:14 PM
Has anyone considered this?
http://www.geomancy.org/sacred-geometry/earth-moon/index.html
more found in the "a little book of coincidence"
Google this.
interesting stuff I'm sure... but it really drags us off topic... could you please start a new thread and discuss it there?
Thanks
This might have significant in relation to the pupations of the device as the appears in all fundamental down to the tiniest particle
http://www.halexandria.org/dward116.htm
Quote from: paulshroom on January 27, 2008, 04:09:24 PM
This might have significant in relation to the pupations of the device as the appears in all fundamental down to the tiniest particle
http://www.halexandria.org/dward116.htm
I don't have an argument with that... all that I'm saying is that it can be explored in it's own thread, right here on this site... My understanding is that THIS thread is focused on the mechanics and subtleties of replication of the OCAL device.. all theories have their place and I am not discounting yours, but replication still comes down to shaping physical materials into a precise copy of the original device... we are not trying to re invent it... just replicate it... If you are proposing a way to refine details and materials in a way that helps us come closer to replication the original then please post those specifics here... again I am not trying to discourage you nor your efforts in any way... simply suggestion that it takes us of the track to physical replication of the original OCAL device.
@All,
Let?s compare some notes.
My rotor weighs 303g.
That is HDPE piece + the two bearings + the eight N42 1/4"OD x 1/2" rod magnets.
My stators weigh 10g each.
That is the Delrin holder + the bearing + N42 1/2" x 3/16" x ? ring magnet
Magnetic induction of the eight N42 1/4"OD x 1/2" rod magnets I?ve worked with is as follows:
kgauss
S N
4.56 -4.49
4.61 -4.37
4.71 -4.40
4.50 -4.45
4.60 -4.50
4.57 -4.48
4.58 -4.42
4.51 -4.42
x(av) = 4.58 x(av) = -4.44
s(n-1) = 0.0655 s(n-1) = 0.0464
Magnetic induction of the twelve virgin N42 1/4"OD x 1/2" rod magnets (just arrived) is as follows:
kgauss
S N
4.42 -4.48
4.57 -4.30
4.56 -4.37
4.56 -4.43
4.48 -4.28
4.62 -4.43
4.58 -4.51
4.66 -4.77
4.60 -4.57
4.58 -4.38
4.62 -4.47
4.61 -4.50
x(av) = 4.57 x(av) = -4.43
s(n-1) = 0.0672 s(n-1) = 0.0864
The vertical separation of couples of N42 1/4"OD x 1/2" rods placed in repulsion both SS and NN is approximately 31mm. Needs a more snug clear tube to avoid the tilting, although quite small, of the magnet couple, to improve accuracy of measurement.
One thing that seems evident is that there is no measurable degradation of the used neo magnets compared to the virgin ones. In both sets studied, however, there?s a difference in the absolute value of the average magnetic induction measured for the S compared to the N pole for the same precision (standard deviation), that precision slightly varying for the N pole. Someone curious may do some further tests such as student t-test to see how significant that is but that doesn?t seem to be necessary.
As seen, my rotor being 303g is heavier than @alsetalokin's 258g rotor. Don't remember if that 258g was with the eight magnets and the two bearings or not. Also, I don't remember seeing how heavy each one of @alsetalokin's stators is. As I said, each one of my stators (Delrin holde + bearing + ring magnet) weighs 10g. This is one thing we have to work with to make it as close to @alsetalokin's as possible.
My next step, being stuck for the time being with the weight of the rotor I have, will be to try different stator bearing-ring magnet combinations which is a study @alsetalokin considers important because he says in his experience not all such combinations work. Not clear, however, what he understands by "work"--does it mean AGW can be achieved with any combination but the acceleration doesn't kick in with just any combination?
Quote from: geodan on January 27, 2008, 04:59:10 PM
Quote from: paulshroom on January 27, 2008, 04:09:24 PM
This might have significant in relation to the pupations of the device as the appears in all fundamental down to the tiniest particle
http://www.halexandria.org/dward116.htm
I don't have an argument with that... all that I'm saying is that it can be explored in it's own thread, right here on this site... My understanding is that THIS thread is focused on the mechanics and subtleties of replication of the OCAL device.. all theories have their place and I am not discounting yours, but replication still comes down to shaping physical materials into a precise copy of the original device... we are not trying to re invent it... just replicate it... If you are proposing a way to refine details and materials in a way that helps us come closer to replication the original then please post those specifics here... again I am not trying to discourage you nor your efforts in any way... simply suggestion that it takes us of the track to physical replication of the original OCAL device.
Yes thats a good idea, maybe this could help someone to propose a way to refine the details and materials in a way that helps us come closer to the replication of the original.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 27, 2008, 05:07:13 PM
@All,
Let?s compare some notes.
My rotor weighs 303g.
That is HDPE piece + the two bearings + the eight N42 1/4"OD x 1/2" rod magnets.
My stators weigh 10g each.
That is the Delrin holder + the bearing + N42 1/2" x 3/16" x ? ring magnet
Magnetic induction of the eight N42 1/4"OD x 1/2" rod magnets I?ve worked with is as follows:
kgauss
S N
4.56 -4.49
4.61 -4.37
4.71 -4.40
4.50 -4.45
4.60 -4.50
4.57 -4.48
4.58 -4.42
4.51 -4.42
x(av) = 4.58 x(av) = -4.44
s(n-1) = 0.0655 s(n-1) = 0.0464
Magnetic induction of the twelve virgin N42 1/4"OD x 1/2" rod magnets (just arrived) is as follows:
kgauss
S N
4.42 -4.48
4.57 -4.30
4.56 -4.37
4.56 -4.43
4.48 -4.28
4.62 -4.43
4.58 -4.51
4.66 -4.77
4.60 -4.57
4.58 -4.38
4.62 -4.47
4.61 -4.50
x(av) = 4.57 x(av) = -4.43
s(n-1) = 0.0672 s(n-1) = 0.0864
The vertical separation of couples of N42 1/4"OD x 1/2" rods placed in repulsion both SS and NN is approximately 31mm. Needs a more snug clear tube to avoid the tilting, although quite small, of the magnet couple, to improve accuracy of measurement.
One thing that seems evident is that there is no measurable degradation of the used neo magnets compared to the virgin ones. In both sets studied, however, there?s a difference in the absolute value of the average magnetic induction measured for the S compared to the N pole for the same precision (standard deviation), that precision slightly varying for the N pole. Someone curious may do some further tests such as student t-test to see how significant that is but that doesn?t seem to be necessary.
Omni
Thank u for taking the time to look at this and posting your results. Just goes to show that no one Neo is the same and consequently every replicators magnets will be different so the responce of there device will be also different. Hmmm may look into certified magnets (Cost and availability). It truly would be informative to have this type of data of Al's device.
Q. What is the manufacture of your Gauss meter? I may look into purchasing one if available.
Thanks again for the Data
Best Regards
Bill
@Vipond50,
My gaussmeter is F.W.Bell Model 4048.
I wonder if even certified magnets will do the job. What's crucial is to know exactly what the fields in @alsetalokin's machine are. As I've said before, I bet it's not at all certain that he will reproduce what we're seeing in the video if he starts building the device from scratch, ordering the magnets and manufacturing the parts anew as we do. If I were him, I'd do exactly that--won't touch the working model and will immediately start building a replica, let alone that I'd go out of my way to help independent parties replicate it by doing all kinds of tests, not just drip feeding the enthusiasts.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 27, 2008, 05:20:44 PM
As seen, my rotor being 303g is heavier than @alsetalokin's 258g rotor. Don't remember if that 258g was with the eight magnets and the two bearings or not. Also, I don't remember seeing how heavy each one of @alsetalokin's stators is. As I said, each one of my stators (Delrin holde + bearing + ring magnet) weighs 10g. This is one thing we have to work with to make it as close to @alsetalokin's as possible.
My next step, being stuck for the time being with the weight of the rotor I have, will be to try different stator bearing-ring magnet combinations which is a study @alsetalokin considers important because he says in his experience not all such combinations work. Not clear, however, what he understands by "work"--does it mean AGW can be achieved with any combination but the acceleration doesn't kick in with just any combination?
Yes - 258 with magnets. No mention of bearings one way or the other that I recall.
In trying to tune the motor and conduct various experiments to optimise COP, would there be any mileage I wonder in applying a constant drive from a small DC motor, fed from a voltage variable source, to the main rotor and monitoring the draw current of the driven motor with a DMM and/or the speed of the rotor of-course? This should permit some tweaking of stator positions (etc) with either the motor in operation, or statically with a re-run to compare against previous results.
Of-course this would rely on the AGW stator sync'ing up as ultimately required, though I would expect the current of the driven motor to fall and speed of the rotor to increase with an improvement in efficiency. Heating effects in the motor would cause some deviation from absolute measurements, though if trimming were conducted dynamically then you would be looking for clues by relative short-term deviations in current demand and rotor speed.
I'm suggesting this as there appears to be a few unknowns with regard to Alsetalokin's device, and who's to say that the physical deviations would not need to be surprisingly considerable from the original - particularly as there's a fine balance to be struck?
Now dump current the other way and you've really got it cracked ;D ;D ;D
Just a thought :)
FunkyJive
Rep Team
Ok, I am kind of reaching out here so bear with me. On the second video(File 13). After he removed the rotor, he then flipped over the base. Adjacent the rotor bearing assembly there was 2 hole also drilled into the base 180 degrees apart. There was never any explanation for these to holes, So I was pondering on that maybe there was an cylindrical magnet in each hole to induce instability or a magnetically induce ratchet effect into the stator magnets as OC spoke of. Maybe I am out there, but wanted your comments on this possibility or consideration.
Regards
Bill
@vipond50,
I think he explained it somewhere that that's where the construction for the pivot is attached. Seems to me it's more important now to start with the basics:
a) Weight of rotor--original is 258g w/ 8 magnets and bearings (mine is 303g).
b) Weight of each individual stator--I didn't catch what the original weight of stator holder plus the ring magnet pus the bearing is (mine is 10g).
c) Magnetic induction of the stators with respect to the rotor. We know that, in general, the stator magnets have to be stronger than the rotor magnets but how much stronger?
I'm most curious, if @alsetalokin orders the parts the same way we did, using Jason's fine drawings, ordering the same magnets and bearings we did, will he be able to reproduce the acceleration we see in the video, let alone run the machine for 7.5 hours?
Hi Omni,
I had looked up the weight of Al's stators some time ago, and they were 10g. So yours are fine.
I suggest two things. First, is using identical damper material as Al. 6061-T6 Aluminum Alloy. I paid $5.00 for a 12" piece and I am waiting for it. (and my correct sized rotor) Any other metal, including pure aluminum will not be the same. It will change the braking, etc.
Secondly, testing with different strength rotor magnets. We want a 30.5 mm separation if possible.
Oh, and lastly, measure from the outside of your stator, to the outside edge of your rotor. Al mentioned it needs to be exactly 5 mm. 4 and 6 mm will not work. It must be precise. (Al's statement)
@ Bill
I would strongly suggest ordering the 6061-T6 Aluminum Alloy for your replication. It will make a difference IMHO. ;)
Cheers,
Bruce
@All Replicators
has their been any more positive runs?
None yet....perhaps tomorrow but I wouldn't bet on it.
@Bruce_TP,
Thanks for the stator data. As for the Aluminum for the dampers you?re exactly right. That?s one issue we have to careful about.
I will also have the problem of decreasing my rotor weight from 303g down to 258g. Wonder what it is in the other replicas here?
As far as the 5mm rotor-stator distance, I think mine is fine.
The 30.5mm of the rotor magnets is a pretty rough estimate. Much better would be to have numbers for the induction measurements at the surface of the magnets. I have my Hall probe attached immovably at the bottom of a plastic tube of a diameter almost equal the diameter of the rotor magnets so that I?d have the probe reproducibly at the same place on the surface of the magnet when I drop it there. Wish @alsetalokin could do some measurements of the kgauss at least at the surface where the poles are of his rotor and stator magnets. The strength of the magnets and the form of the fields in his machine is most crucial to know, together with the weight of the rotor and stators (which we already know).
.
Quote from: FunkyJive on January 27, 2008, 06:08:26 AM
QuoteYou mean something like this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=wcy0tedYBMg, That's the most interesting rendition so far of the well known idea we're trying to reproduce. The difference in our case now is that there's someone real who's willing to talk to the replicators to a certain extent.
And, note, the magnets in that video are ceramic and not neos, if we heed Stefan's concern about the degradation of the neos.
Hi Omnibus.
Thanks for the video. The Lego touch makes an amusing statement of cheeky simplicity - though I'll avoid passing judgement on its validity.
However, if such a construction were for real then you could imagine the headlines...
"Boy with Lego set challenges science as we know it" ;D
The belt arrangement is something akin to what I had in-mind, though reducing frictional losses by requiring just two belts - one between the main rotor and one of the pulleys (this maintaining the correct registration and setting Rotor-Stator gear ratio), with the peripheral belt simply to keep any number of stators in sync.
Perhaps easier to build from available off-the-shelf parts, though probably too lossy still :-\
I hadn't seen Stefan's comments regarding neo magnets and possibility of degradation, though I'd guess the electrically conductive nature of neo's (as opposed to ceramic) could also have some small impact due to dynamically shifting field patterns about the magnets - as per the effect induced by the dampers.
FunkyJive
Major kewl since this is the 50th anniversary of the Lego Brick
http://cache.lego.com/2057/anniversary.htm
may they lead us out of the valley of the evil oil barons!
Terry
QuoteMajor kewl since this is the 50th anniversary of the Lego Brick
http://cache.lego.com/2057/anniversary.htm
may they lead us out of the valley of the evil oil barons!
Terry
LOL - Thanks Terry, I enjoyed your biblical take.
Perhaps they'll sell bricks you can build into commandment tablets ;D
Sorry - I digress :-[
FunkyJive
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on January 28, 2008, 07:47:10 AM
Hi Omni,
I had looked up the weight of Al's stators some time ago, and they were 10g. So yours are fine.
I suggest two things. First, is using identical damper material as Al. 6061-T6 Aluminum Alloy. I paid $5.00 for a 12" piece and I am waiting for it. (and my correct sized rotor) Any other metal, including pure aluminum will not be the same. It will change the braking, etc.
Secondly, testing with different strength rotor magnets. We want a 30.5 mm separation if possible.
Oh, and lastly, measure from the outside of your stator, to the outside edge of your rotor. Al mentioned it needs to be exactly 5 mm. 4 and 6 mm will not work. It must be precise. (Al's statement)
@ Bill
I would strongly suggest ordering the 6061-T6 Aluminum Alloy for your replication. It will make a difference IMHO. ;)
Cheers,
Bruce
@ Bruce
Yep, been there, have that and been testing that.
& all
Ok I have been reluctant to state this, but I am NOT in agreement with Jason's Drawings as you know from previous posting of mine. I find it peculiar that the original spec was changed to what Jason work up due to the way it appeared to him during his drawing creation. I understand that Al reviewed and approved his workup. Q why was the original spec changed ? So, that being said i am working a rotor that is to the original spec.
In addition the Dampeners were a add on to control what Al felt to be an overspeed. I do not deny that they seem to contribute to the spin down cycle and will be in place for testing when and if I get motorization. There are Pic's of the device supposedly operating without the Dampers. What i am looking for at present is the pre-operation of the device before the secondary stators are stopped. I see it as a positive cogging effect for lack of a better word.
I am in agreement with the mass of the various components i.e. Rotor, Stators, etc. for a recreation of the device although due to the vagueness of the creator a more accurate spec could and have been posted.
@ Jason
Please do not take my statement as a negative toward u and your drawing workups, As i have stated before u have done a excellent job with the interpretation and my own interpretation could be incorrect also.
@ Omini
Relating to the two holes in the base plate, Yes it could be as u stated, but i am uneasy with it due to statements that OC made. Last night i worked with secondary magnets under the base during spin down tests with AWG and found that by placing the secondary magnets in location representative the two holes i did find a change to the stator behavior. This tells me that a these holes are there for a purpose or at least it seems so at this point.
Best Regards
Bill
@ all,
hmm, electro magnets? i guess it will be seen.
lol
sam
Deleted!
Wrong topic
@All,
My N38 neos came and the NN and SS separation is again 31mm to 31.5mm (@alsetalokin's is 30.5mm, he says). Will have more detailed data (kgauss) in several days which I'll post as I did with the data I already took of my current N42 magnets.
The most urgent problem at this moment is to find a way to decrease the weight of the rotor from 303g down to 258g as it is in the original.
@All,
Does anybody know if the 258g @alsetalokin reported for the weight of his rotor is with or without that additional red weight piece seen in the video?
omnibus,
just keep grasping at straws, if you want to trim the weight of your rotor, the only way i see it is to cut the bottom out till it gets to the desired weight. no need to mess with the outer circumference of the rotor or the actual depth of the edge.
lol
sam
Quote from: supersam on January 28, 2008, 08:06:34 PM
omnibus,
just keep grasping at straws, if you want to trim the weight of your rotor, the only way i see it is to cut the bottom out till it gets to the desired weight. no need to mess with the outer circumference of the rotor or the actual depth of the edge.
lol
sam
Oh, sure, no doubt about it. As I said, however, I'd like to know what the weight of the rotor with that red weight seen in the video is. Is the known 258g with or without that weight?
Quote from: vipond50 on January 28, 2008, 03:27:44 PM
@ Omini
Relating to the two holes in the base plate, Yes it could be as u stated, but i am uneasy with it due to statements that OC made. Last night i worked with secondary magnets under the base during spin down tests with AWG and found that by placing the secondary magnets in location representative the two holes i did find a change to the stator behavior. This tells me that a these holes are there for a purpose or at least it seems so at this point.
Best Regards
Bill
I have holes in both my base plate and rotor as I had to use the holes to attach the base plate and rotor to a 6 inch rotary table for milling purposes. Placing any magnet in these locations will change how the rotor behaves. Of course placing additional stator magnets in any of the other 13 slots slots causes strange rotor behavior as well. I even went as far as making a right angle plastic bracket to hold a stator above the rotor for 3-d effect. It also made it behave differently but still no spin up or even constant speed. From the way my rotor behaves in the 'way it is suppose to be configuration' I am thinking the rotor magnets are too far apart by about 1/4 to 3/8 of a inch. :P Time for a variable rotor magnet design. Why can not these designs be simple... ???
TomG
@hydrocontrol,
The time for these variations hasn't come yet, I think. I'd like to ensure first that I have all the parts weighing the same as the original and that the magnetic fields are the same as in the machine shown in the video. Now, before going any further I'd really like to know is this 258g of the rotor is with or without that red weight in the video. How much that particular rotor actually seen in the video really weighs? Is it 258g or anything different.
Wish also @alsetalokin would measure the magnetic induction at 5mm distance from his rotor at the base of the rotor magnets which is flush with the top of the ring stator magnets. I wish this measurement could be done at at least 1 degree increment. We can then compare these 360 data points with what we have (we'll ave to do the same measurements). Same thing for each stator magnet at 5mm from its surface at the plane of its top.
I don't think that's too much to ask. As far as I can see there quite a few parameters which we have to know for sure--weight of the rotor seen in the video, weight of the stators (we already know that--10g each) and the exact form and value of the magnetic fields around the rotor and the stator. As far as I understand the dampers are a detail. Please add if you think there are other crucial parameters we need to know at this point.
As for the holes in the base, they must be 13 and that's established for sure. Therefore, we can't play with this for now if we are to be true to the original.
@omnibus,
why would anyone tell an imbesule like anything? YOU ARE JUST WRONG!! quit cluttering up the thread with your nonsense. have you not figured out that you just do not have a clue, because it has been demonstrated on YOUTUBE , that this obviously works? what is your problem that you can't seem to understand that 258 grams means 258grams. what an ass. no wonder you don't have any positivwe results!
lol
sam
ps: it has already been proven beyond any reasonable dout. what is your f----ing problem?
Quote from: supersam on January 28, 2008, 09:20:51 PM
@omnibus,
why would anyone tell an imbesule like anything? YOU ARE JUST WRONG!! quit cluttering up the thread with your nonsense. have you not figured out that you just do not have a clue, because it has been demonstrated on YOUTUBE , that this obviously works? what is your problem that you can't seem to understand that 258 grams means 258grams. what an ass. no wonder you don't have any positivwe results!
lol
sam
ps: it has already been proven beyond any reasonable dout. what is your f----ing problem?
I can't believe someone can be so stupid as to write crap like that.
Now I'm really glad OC and AL kept it in FizzX.com
If conversations must degenerate into getting personal then I would suggest off-forum by PM/Email. Like myself, most probably have no appetite for personal attacks and gratuitous public defamation. ::)
Incidentally, with all the experimentation and fine-tuning to date, from many reconstructors - yet still to no avail I believe (none of the constructors here providing sustained acceleration to suggest OU), then I'm not entirely sure whether Al's magnetic motor is so "obviously" working.
There's doubtless fine-tuning to be done, and I'm not suggesting at-all that the featured motor was in any way faked, but until someone else comes up with another working motor in the absence of precise material and constructional specifications, which would appear to be utterly critical, this question remains.
FunkyJive
Quote from: FunkyJive on January 28, 2008, 10:03:38 PM
If conversations must degenerate into getting personal then I would suggest off-forum by PM/Email. Like myself, most probably have no appetite for personal attacks and gratuitous public defamation. ::)
Incidentally, with all the experimentation and fine-tuning to date, from many reconstructors - yet still to no avail I believe (none of the constructors here providing sustained acceleration to suggest OU), then I'm not entirely sure whether Al's magnetic motor is so "obviously" working.
There's doubtless fine-tuning to be done, and I'm not suggesting at-all that the featured motor was in any way faked, but until someone else comes up with another working motor in the absence of precise material and constructional specifications, which would appear to be utterly critical, this question remains.
FunkyJive
Can't agree more.
@ funky jive
nearly 2000 posts, and 45,000 inquiries later, you think you are just walk away, because, i questioned one of the replicators of this project? i don't think so if you are a replicator too. this is far bigger than our own ego's!! try again. if i have done anything to make you think this way then just consider me, SHUTTIN UP SHUTTIN UP!!!!!
lol
sam
Quote from: FunkyJive on January 28, 2008, 10:03:38 PM
There's doubtless fine-tuning to be done, and I'm not suggesting at-all that the featured motor was in any way faked, but until someone else comes up with another working motor in the absence of precise material and constructional specifications, which would appear to be utterly critical, this question remains.
FunkyJive
The only person to have a really good chance at replication at this would be Al himself since he has the original. Now is this going to happen. ??? Hard to tell. If it was me then I would try to duplicate it if I had a working unit.. Al may have already tried and succeeded or maybe he failed. Of course showing a few more videos would go a long way in helping others replicate. In any event this is not a 'slap it together and it works' system which is what it needs to be to make a major impact. The 'slap it together and tweak it for weeks/months system' is going the route of the 'cold fusion' debacle of years ago. Sure it is finally coming out that the 'cold fusion' does have something going on but it still has a long way to go. This PPM system in it's current configuration also has a long way to go.
@hydrocontrol,
Let's worry about this after we have most of the parameters under control. They aren't too many in this case. For sure much, much fewer and based on elementary understanding compared to 'cold fusion' experiments.
Otherwise, I agree with you.That exactly what @alsetalokin should've done (and should still do--it's not too late).
QuoteThis PPM system in it's current configuration also has a long way to go.
@hydrocontrol
It certainly looks that way so far, and with a few months gone by and so many dedicated constructors seriously working on this project, I get the feeling that at-least
something positive (however small) should turn up in that time.
In eager anticipation I'm looking forward to seeing it - particularly as the full working specs of a successful unit can then be shared - with other constructors actively supported to properly verify this motor.
FunkyJive
@all, AL has already mentioned that the 2 holes were tooling holes to attach to his rotary table.
The now red weight!! he has explained as being a pulley for load / friction tests, look at earlier pictures there is also a bracket and pulley mounted on base plate.
Regards Den.
@cub3,
Yes, I know that. The problem is, is the rotor weight 258g with that red weight or not?
Quote from: cub3 on January 28, 2008, 11:02:17 PM
@all, AL has already mentioned that the 2 holes were tooling holes to attach to his rotary table.
The now red weight!! he has explained as being a pulley for load / friction tests, look at earlier pictures there is also a bracket and pulley mounted on base plate.
Regards Den.
@cub3
Thank you, its ..... Anyway, i missed this one. i will go back and reread all the post again to see what else i have missed
Daa on me :P
Thx
Bill
Sorry to interrupt the train of thought but I want to show what I believe will work. (at least until I try it and it don't work) ;D
I will try to build it this week and let everyone know. The main idea is that the little stator magnets can enter at the center of the rotor magnets where they will move in with no force.
Then will exit at the end of the stator magnets again in the center with no force. In the middle they will apply a strong force in only one direction on the rotor.
Is this like ORBO?
Yes, I know that. The problem is, is the rotor weight 258g with that red weight or not?
@omni, pull your head in and do your research.Ã, ;)
@Bill, no prob's when find will post.
Den
Quote from: Omnibus on January 28, 2008, 11:12:11 PM
@cub3,
Yes, I know that. The problem is, is the rotor weight 258g with that red weight or not?
omni,
The rotor ( including it's component pieces) are either dimensionally incorrect OR the base material is more DENSE.
Den
Quote from: cub3 on January 28, 2008, 11:56:51 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 28, 2008, 11:12:11 PM
@cub3,
Yes, I know that. The problem is, is the rotor weight 258g with that red weight or not?
omni,
The rotor ( including it's component pieces) are either dimensionally incorrect OR the base material is more DENSE.
Den
By 'base material' you mean the material the rotor is made of, HDPE, that is, correct? HDPE is the material suggested by @alsetalokin. Also, he approved of Jason's drawings with the dimensions therein. The rotor magnets are also as suggested by @alsetalokin. What remains to be understood is what the weight of the rotor in the video, not in other pictures, is? Is the weight of the rotor in the video, that is, the HDPE part + magnets + bearings + red piece in the center, really 258g? That's one piece of data we must know.
Terminology Omni.... :P
@ cub3
Does the 258 g of weight include the RED pulley ?
If so how much does the RED pulley by itself weigh ?
@ all
Perhaps it is time to create a new drawing with weights of individual components clearly identified ?
@JFK,
Yes, I think that's crucial. All the weights must be clearly identified. As for the pulley or whatever that is, should it be there or we should try to have the HDPE part plus the magnets weigh as much as the rotor in the video (weight of bearings is negligible)? What's important is to have everything as in the video, not in the pictures ore anywhere else.
See, the actual weight of the rotor in the video is one thing I have to be sure of before I decide to have these extra 45g be lathed off of my 303g rotor.
Quote from: supersam on January 28, 2008, 09:20:51 PM
@omnibus,
why would anyone tell an imbesule like anything? YOU ARE JUST WRONG!! quit cluttering up the thread with your nonsense. have you not figured out that you just do not have a clue, because it has been demonstrated on YOUTUBE , that this obviously works? what is your problem that you can't seem to understand that 258 grams means 258grams. what an ass. no wonder you don't have any positivwe results!
lol
sam
ps: it has already been proven beyond any reasonable dout. what is your f----ing problem?
You have got to be the most retarded person alive.
Quote from: g4macdad on January 29, 2008, 11:10:34 AM
Quote from: supersam on January 28, 2008, 09:20:51 PM
@omnibus,
why would anyone tell an imbesule like anything? YOU ARE JUST WRONG!! quit cluttering up the thread with your nonsense. have you not figured out that you just do not have a clue, because it has been demonstrated on YOUTUBE , that this obviously works? what is your problem that you can't seem to understand that 258 grams means 258grams. what an ass. no wonder you don't have any positivwe results!
lol
sam
ps: it has already been proven beyond any reasonable dout. what is your f----ing problem?
You have got to be the most retarded person alive.
< agrees, but this should be in PM and not in this thread. >
Mods, feel free to delete this post to clean up the thread.
@All,
CommentAuthoralsetalokin CommentTimeJan 6th 2008 permalink
Thanks, Mary. And that's exactly why I am chagrined at Sterling's disregard of my wishes in this matter.
I just hope the boss can see the humor in the situation, tomorrow at lunch. Of course his boss has probably already alerted him...
I understand your suggested protocol and I agree that the replicators should do this exactly as you have outlined. I did something like that early on, and was able to determine that the stationary magnets, and the gearwise rotation, extract energy from the system, as you would expect, of course. Interestingly, if the stator magnets are "frozen" by overtightening or leaving out the spacer washer, the rotor turns longer than if the stators are stationary but free to vibrate. Again, as expected.
The unexpected behavior only shows up running with the one magnet spinning anti-gearwise.
I have arranged a little variable-drag system using pulleys and thread; by starting up with the thread loop slack, and then swivelling one pulley to tighten the thread once the system is running, I can put a slight repeatable drag on things. It slows the equilibrium speed down, but with only a little drag it doesn't stop it or cause it to run down faster, as far as I can tell (these are VERY preliminary results, like from 2 trials).I am trying to implement a pony-brake system but the requirement for absolute free-spinning at the start is requiring a rather sophisticated clutch design. I may have to go back to a magnetic eddy coupling, like in my old namesake's speedometer design (which has only recently been replaced by digital stuff in autos, I am proud to note.)
I'm sure the thing could direct-drive a little aircraft propeller without difficulty.
Regards Den.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 29, 2008, 10:23:22 AM
See, the actual weight of the rotor in the video is one thing I have to be sure of before I decide to have these extra 45g be lathed off of my 303g rotor.
@ Omnibus
Basic Question
Is your device or Replication like the one in the video? I mean does it have the bearings mounted or attached to the base plate or are the
bearings mounted in the Rotor (Drawings). Al's first video ( the one with the Red Pulley) has the bearings mounted to the base plate.
Bill
@vipond50,
The two bearings in my setup are mounted on the rotor itself. Their mass is negligible, though, compared to the rest.
@cub3,
Thanks for posting that text from @alsetalokin. No doubt it'd be art to get this to work. Nevertheless, I think some more detailed explanations and data won't hurt.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 29, 2008, 12:52:29 PM
@vipond50,
The two bearings in my setup are mounted on the rotor itself. Their mass is negligible, though, compared to the rest.
Ok, just wanted to sure that I was following u, but the rotating mass of the shaft will have to added to the equation.
Not to be splitting hairs, but these are two different animals. I suppect and is demenstrated that the machined out portion of the Video rotor was
1. to provide an access for the bearing assembly mounting hardware and the tower of the Bearing assembly.
2. and or ? to remove mass of the rotor to match the orginal mass of the bearing mounted rotor(Repersented in the drawings).
Regards
Bill
Quote from: Omnibus on January 25, 2008, 04:22:41 PM
@ezzob,
I don't think that's the case. You may try it yourself--take two of these magnets and see that when they are repelling when placed parallel this won't change if you turn them around their axes. You can also measure the kgauss and see that there's a midpoint line on the cylindrical surface where the sign changes the same way all around. The shape of the field around the magnet may not be symmetric, though, and that's the main problem. Also, as I said a while ago, I'll be doing some experiments probably on Sunday with a batch of virgin magnets (that I've not used in my machine) and will compare their behavior to the rotor magnets I've already used to see if there's any discrepancy along the lines of eddy current degradation mentioned by Stefan. I saw something strange when performing the test suggested by @MeggerMan.
@MeggerMan,
Have you tried your repulsion test on rotor magnets which have already been in the rotor while carrying out experiments? Is the sameness of behavior when testing them SS verusus NN retained? And in general, does this 31mm remain the same?
Thanks Omnibus for the answer, that help a lot, i no now........but i dint tell about it
@vipond50,
Just to mention. The weight of the two bearing of the rotor is on the order of 3g. Thus, is is negligible compared to the discrepancy of 45g between my rotor and the rotor in the video (if 258g reflects its weight without the pulley).
The weight of my shaft is on the order of 9g but, as I said, it's not part of the rotor but is immovably attached to the perspex base.
What are your data? Probably other would want to post their data too.
These days I'll posting data concerning my N38 and N35 neos as well as probably some rpm measurements.
What I'd really like to see @alsetalokin post is the values of the magnetic induction at 5mm from the rotor (with no stators around), respectively at 5mm from each stator (the rest of the stators and the rotor absent) at, say, 1 degree increment. This will give us a good quantitative picture of the fields at play in his successful experiment.
Heads up!
Forum member over at Steorn called "rt", signs name as [root] claims to be Al's boss at work.
Last visit to forum 5 days ago, same time as Al last visit after being scared off by possible IP address collection script.
rt says that he thinks the claim is legit, and has no reason to suspect foul play - perhaps a good person to get in contact with to verify things a little further.
Of course it could be a lurker having a laugh, this is his post:
(In reply to RB asking who was Al's employer)
QuoteCommentAuthor rt Comment Time: Jan 20th 2008
As his employer I can assure you this will not effect his position. This is not the USA.
He was granted permission to do some private research using our lab equipement.
I'm not aware of any abuse or fraud.
[Root]
Regards
Rob
Quote from: MeggerMan on January 29, 2008, 06:45:49 PM
(In reply to RB asking who was Al's employer)
QuoteCommentAuthor rt Comment Time: Jan 20th 2008
As his employer I can assure you this will not effect his position. This is not the USA.
He was granted permission to do some private research using our lab equipement.
I'm not aware of any abuse or fraud.
[Root]
Regards
Rob
Just to make it clear, my question was both sardonic and rhetorical, in response to people coming up with all sorts of theories on who AL was and where he worked, I truly did not expect an answer, if rt is just a lurker then he proved my point that we cannot accurately know who anonymous posters are.
Hi guys,
I believe a lot of the rotor wieght mystery has been sloved by Al now saying that the thickness of the rotor is 18mm and not the half inch he took it to be. An understandable mistake for someone used to working in imperial.
As for testing i don't think anything will be gained by visual observation. You might get lucky but the gods are against you. To that end i have finally connected up my dataq 4 channel datalogger to 2 hall sensors to read and record what is going on in the wind down tests. Will report if i see anything of note..
Quote from: Craigy on January 29, 2008, 07:25:22 PM
Hi guys,
I believe a lot of the rotor wieght mystery has been sloved by Al now saying that the thickness of the rotor is 18mm and not the half inch he took it to be. An understandable mistake for someone used to working in imperial.
As for testing i don't think anything will be gained by visual observation. You might get lucky but the gods are against you. To that end i have finally connected up my dataq 4 channel datalogger to 2 hall sensors to read and record what is going on in the wind down tests. Will report if i see anything of note..
That makes no sense... 19mm is almost 3/4 of an inch. < scratches head >
@ All
I constructed a new rig to the config reflected to the video, meaning a dual bearing assembly mounted to the plexie base. The assembly is out an old Feed back sensor with #or better grad bearings. I machined down the bearing housing to reduce mass and volume. The shaft is Stainless Steel and a Neo has little to no attraction to it. The Rotor is UHMW because this is what I had on hand. It started out to be 1.0" in thickness X 5.75" in diameter Total mass was 383 grams with the magnets. The magnet slot radius is 2.51" to the point of the intersection of the adjoining slot. The center line length is 2.32" measuring of the center line of the Stainless Steel shaft.
This morning my Grade #5 Stator bearings arrive so i started doing more spin test.
The first thing i did to the rotor was to decrease the thickness from 1.0" down to 0.75" and did a spin test. The rig responded better, but still No joy. So I disassembled the rotor and started removing material from the underside. The first cut brought the mass down to 305 grams. Reassembled and did another spin test. This time the rig sounded different and kind of coggie, but still no joy.
I machined more off the underside and brought the mass down to 278.85 grams. Reassembled and did a few more spin test. This time the rig was alot more audible and the coggie action was alot more pronounced, but here again still No joy.
I ripped it apart again and this time machine more off the under side and brought the weight down to 252.0 grams with the Mags. I did more spin tests an the rig almost acted like it wanted to maintain rpm, but still No joy(Dam).
The underside of the rotor is taking the appearance of a flywheel, meaning the rim is still 0.75" in thickness for 0.75" in on the diameter. I also left a hub with the thickness of 1.0" X 0.75" in diameter, wanted to have the most shaft contact surface area to rotor I could.
My next step is to machine up three new single bearing stator adaptors and see how stable the new bearings are with more spin test. Currently I am running the dual bearing set as described in earlier post.
What I have observed by working this is, as the rotor gets lighter in mass the more cogger it is and the more it seem to want to run. I will put together some Pic's of this setup for your review if u would like to see what i have done.
Best Regards
Bill
Hello Bill,
Thank you very much for the information. We are still trying to get our correct size rotors.
I would be interested in seeing your pictures. Also of your bearing assembly in the base.
And the carved out underbelly of your rotor.
Thank you!
@ All
Has anyone heard any more from Clanzer?
And from Bill's information, once again we see the importance of following the details. In other words, the weight of the rotor matters!! So we need to carve out some of the underbelly to match weight, it would seem.
I will weigh my new rotor when it arrives.
Cheers,
Bruce
@All,
Here are some rough data for the magnetic induction at 5mm distance from my rotor (in absence of stators) and stators (each stator in absence of the rest of the stators and the rotor). The hall sensor was positioned at the bottom of rotor magnets and flush with the top plane of the stators. Although I positioned the sensor immovably with respect to the rotating rotor and stator, I was incrementing the angles by hand. Although much more precise measurements have to be made, especially with regard to the exact angles of measurement one can see at least that the magnetic induction of the stators is almost a magnitude greater than that of the rotor. Qualitatively that's exactly what's required. We, however, need to know the exact data taken as in this example so that we can make quantitative comparisons with the original.
Forgot to mention, all magnets are said to be N42. By the end of the week I'll probably be able to report similar results with the N38 and N35 magnets.
I should add also that the 5mm distance I mentioned is from the sensor to the outside cylindrical surface of both rotor and stators. Therefore, the probe is closer to the surface of the stator magnets than to the surface of rotor. That was the distance @alsetalokin emphasized on. Later in the week I'll carry out measurements with the probe equidistant from the surfaces of the magnets themselves.
Ok, Here's a few Pics (8) Should give a pretty good idea.
BTW this is all backup with Cad other than a few recent changes.
Bill
Pictures removed because they did not follow the original Specification, what ever that is ? :'(/
B.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on January 29, 2008, 09:31:32 PM
Hello Bill,
Thank you very much for the information. We are still trying to get our correct size rotors.
I would be interested in seeing your pictures. Also of your bearing assembly in the base.
And the carved out underbelly of your rotor.
Thank you!
@ All
Has anyone heard any more from Clanzer?
And from Bill's information, once again we see the importance of following the details. In other words, the weight of the rotor matters!! So we need to carve out some of the underbelly to match weight, it would seem.
I will weigh my new rotor when it arrives.
Cheers,
Bruce
O yeah Bruce
i for got to metion that the ABEC - 5 bearing really made a difference to the Stator's stability, shouldbeable to handle the job with a single bearing. Glad U went with the ABEC-7's, should be that much better.
BTW: the ABEC -1 are junk for this application.
@ Omni & All
Go with at least a grade 5 or better yet a Grade 7 bearing when U deside to upgrade your bearings.
Regards
Bill
@Vipond50 - NICE WORK!! what's that bearing assy?? I like the way that it mounts up under the base, it looks nice and stout.
Quote from: geodan on January 29, 2008, 10:24:40 PM
@Vipond50 - NICE WORK!! what's that bearing assy?? I like the way that it mounts up under the base, it looks nice and stout.
The Bearing assembly is hell for stout. It was even beefier before I started the machining process. It came from an old rotary encoder made by Penny& Giles at a cost of $1,400 a pop. The bearings are instrument grade and very smooth. The way i worked it was so if this thing ever works(?) I'll have a Cad drawing so it can be replicated.
Bill
G'day all,
I am, astounded that this is considered to be a replicators site.
The variations from original are unfortunately astounding!
This place needs a database (spreadsheet of Al's. initial & subsequent dimensional & constructional modifications, with a time line showing further changes, results etc. Most important.
If, one is to reflect a TRUE replication, then that is one of the original video.
ObservingÃ, the various dimensional variances of what is said to be a replication / duplication / copy whatever on this site there shall be no hope unless every one gets together and cooperates to produce a final result. Good or bad
Without initial accurate true reproductions there is a very limited chance of success. I am aware of the limited dimensional information let alone weights of components, gauss/flux of magnets etcetcetc.
Though surley, after this period of time/expenditureÃ, & thought it is time to get down to the basics, replicate then extrappolate.
That is to say, there is a total lack of information and observation's of what has occurred and is supposedly being replicated!!!
With so much hypothosis and bitch sessions thrown in, what is this site'sÃ, chance of success and quantifiable results to be.
Outside the envelope, everyone appears to be there, Unfortunatley I have yet to see an accurate reproduction within limited dimensional sizes and tolerances. Hence records comparing Al's to everyone's
Basics to be established and recorded, all experemation after basics duly encouraged. (and duly appreciated).
Keep it up but do not loose the plot.
Regards.
Den
@cub3,
I agree with the philosophy you espouse but there doesn't seem to be any concreteness. I'm trying to be as close as possible to the original but learning elementary parameters such as the exact weight of the rotor or the profile of the magnetic induction in the original at a certain distance from stator and rotor seems to be a struggle. These are very likely the crucial parameters for this endeavor to be successful. What do you propose?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 01:33:31 AM
@cub3,
I agree with the philosophy you espouse but there doesn't seem to be any concreteness. I'm trying to be as close as possible to the original but learning elementary parameters such as the exact weight of the rotor or the profile of the magnetic induction in the original at a certain distance from stator and rotor seems to be a struggle. These are very likely the crucial parameters for this endeavor to be successful. What do you propose?
Cub3
I'll replicate it, but where are the spec's ? Are we suppose to work up the one from the original spec that Al posted at the beginning of the Steorn site or the interpreted plan set that Jason put together that Al approved, but does not match the original spec?
How can anyone say which one is correct when the original constructor changed the spec to an untested device? The unit I am working is Rotor Spec. is off Al's original, the stator Mag's ect, etc, etc, following the device in the video.
BTW Are u working this? or arm chairing? I think this is a fair Q?.
Omnibus is trying, but he to has no real spec to work with. At best we are making Educated guesses. If u have more accurate data please post it.
So as Omni asked, What do you propose?
I myself am going to continue to work this project as i see fit....... Period.
Enough Ranting
Thanks for your posting
Regards
Bill
@All,
Just checked the magnetic induction values by having the probe outstanding at the same distance (10mm) from the surface both of the rotor and of the stator magnets. The data for the rotor graph are similar to those I posted earlier:http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg74021.html#msg74021. The stator values, as expected, are lower (on the average between 150 and -230 gauss) than those in the link but are still higher than the rotor magnet values which is as required to qualitatively mimic the original. Both rod and ring magnets are stated to be N42.
I again emphasize that we need to know these magnetic induction profiles quantitatively and in detail.
omnibus,
Concretness, ask Al! :)
The Replication needs absolutness not generalisation, it's ability to succed is determined by its accuracy to the original.
This thread as well as others is becoming full of unmitageted garbage.
The information showing the exact reproduction of AL's original device is what is required, with the differences that each replicator has.
Do you know if there is a true replicators site, without anylisis of spurious information by in accurate and non original replications, which should include a time line off all of AL's modifications
@omnibus with consideration to you PLEASE re read earlier post s l o w l y . A spread sheet / database of what different replicators have. The Purists and the Deviants you all try hard.
Keep on keeping on, but lock it down.
Regards
Den.
ps http://www.halexandria.org/dward124.htm
@cub3,
It doesn't seem that you're continuing anything to this thread. if you continue with your useless rantings I have no choice but to ignore you.
Quote from: cub3 on January 30, 2008, 03:39:55 AM
omnibus,
Concretness, ask Al! :)
The Replication needs absolutness not generalisation, it's ability to succed is determined by its accuracy to the original.
This thread as well as others is becoming full of unmitageted garbage.
The information showing the exact reproduction of AL's original device is what is required, with the differences that each replicator has.
Do you know if there is a true replicators site, without anylisis of spurious information by in accurate and non original replications, which should include a time line off all of AL's modifications
@omnibus with consideration to you PLEASE re read earlier post s l o w l y . A spread sheet / database of what different replicators have. The Purists and the Deviants you all try hard.
Keep on keeping on, but lock it down.
Regards
Den.
ps http://www.halexandria.org/dward124.htm
Ok Cub3
I'll remove my Pic's and shut the heck up, after all " This thread as well as others is becoming full of unmitageted garbage"
Well Said
B.
Quote from: vipond50 on January 30, 2008, 03:46:51 AM
Quote from: cub3 on January 30, 2008, 03:39:55 AM
omnibus,
Concretness, ask Al! :)
The Replication needs absolutness not generalisation, it's ability to succed is determined by its accuracy to the original.
This thread as well as others is becoming full of unmitageted garbage.
The information showing the exact reproduction of AL's original device is what is required, with the differences that each replicator has.
Do you know if there is a true replicators site, without anylisis of spurious information by in accurate and non original replications, which should include a time line off all of AL's modifications
@omnibus with consideration to you PLEASE re read earlier post s l o w l y . A spread sheet / database of what different replicators have. The Purists and the Deviants you all try hard.
Keep on keeping on, but lock it down.
Regards
Den.
ps http://www.halexandria.org/dward124.htm
Ok Cub3
I'll remove my Pic's and shut the heck up, after all " This thread as well as others is becoming full of unmitageted garbage"
Well Said
B.
It is done
B.
@vipond50,
On the contrary, not your pics, @cub3 should be removed.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 03:53:45 AM
@vipond50,
On the contrary, not your pics, @cub3 should be removed.
Onmibus
Is that the correct email address in your profile? If U want I'll send them along to U.
Bill
Quote from: vipond50 on January 30, 2008, 02:58:26 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 01:33:31 AM
@cub3,
I agree with the philosophy you espouse but there doesn't seem to be any concreteness. I'm trying to be as close as possible to the original but learning elementary parameters such as the exact weight of the rotor or the profile of the magnetic induction in the original at a certain distance from stator and rotor seems to be a struggle. These are very likely the crucial parameters for this endeavor to be successful. What do you propose?
Cub3
I'll replicate it, but where are the spec's ? Are we suppose to work up the one from the original spec that Al posted at the beginning of the Steorn site or the interpreted plan set that Jason put together that Al approved, but does not match the original spec?
How can anyone say which one is correct when the original constructor changed the spec to an untested device? The unit I am working is Rotor Spec. is off Al's original, the stator Mag's ect, etc, etc, following the device in the video.
BTW Are u working this? or arm chairing? I think this is a fair Q?.
Omnibus is trying, but he to has no real spec to work with. At best we are making Educated guesses. If u have more accurate data please post it.
So as Omni asked, What do you propose?
I myself am going to continue to work this project as i see fit....... Period.
Enough Ranting
Thanks for your posting
Regards
Bill
I would have to agree with all this. I believe most replicators (including myself) felt that there would be a lot of variance allowed with the design. A 'slap it together' and it will work attitude. A lot of that was based on the lack of information on how long it really took for Al to get it working and the lack of exact details. This comes from that fact that Al himself 'slapped it together' and just 'accidentally' got it to run. It was 'not by design' or at least it was not by the original intent of the ultimate design that OverConfident and Al were shooting for. Along the path to the ultimate design Al just happened to get it to work. A 'billion to one shot' so to speak. On the surface the working design seems simple enough to replicate considering that Al just 'accidentally' got it to work. Initial work by Clanzer (Sean) seemed to indicate that there would be a lot of variance since he threw together a Stator of many small magnets and got it to anti-gear fairly easily. It is now fairly apparent that this is not a 'slap it together with a few tweaks' system. The next logical step is to database all the exact details to try to sort out a solution but that will be difficult if Al does not provide 'exact' details from the 'working' system which so far has not happened.
Quote from: vipond50 on January 30, 2008, 02:58:26 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 01:33:31 AM
@cub3,
I agree with the philosophy you espouse but there doesn't seem to be any concreteness. I'm trying to be as close as possible to the original but learning elementary parameters such as the exact weight of the rotor or the profile of the magnetic induction in the original at a certain distance from stator and rotor seems to be a struggle. These are very likely the crucial parameters for this endeavor to be successful. What do you propose?
Cub3
I'll replicate it, but where are the spec's ? Are we suppose to work up the one from the original spec that Al posted at the beginning of the Steorn site or the interpreted plan set that Jason put together that Al approved, but does not match the original spec?
How can anyone say which one is correct when the original constructor changed the spec to an untested device? The unit I am working is Rotor Spec. is off Al's original, the stator Mag's ect, etc, etc, following the device in the video.
BTW Are u working this? or arm chairing? I think this is a fair Q?.
Omnibus is trying, but he to has no real spec to work with. At best we are making Educated guesses. If u have more accurate data please post it.
So as Omni asked, What do you propose?
I myself am going to continue to work this project as i see fit....... Period.
Enough Ranting
Thanks for your posting
Regards
Bill
@vipon50
Ther in is the problem I have read through these posts and indeed did point out pulley system ( not a weight).I merley mentioned
To replicate is to exatly reproduce the original.
Is this not so?
Therefore, to deviate from exatness of original item/ product/concept/components/tolerances/materials.is not a reproduction. surley reproduces and then moves on .
I am absolutly aware of what all of your problems are.
I only humbally asked that you collectively GOT YOUR ACT together and established a database or spreadsheet with time line from AL's 1st to last.
Regards
Den
@hydrocontrol,
There have been amazing things from the very beginning and one of the most amazing is that @alsetalokin won't take some time to really do some elementary measurements of just a few parameters of the working motor, let alone immediately reproduce it (instead of symbolically disposing of it). As has become obvious, the famous mistake he did which allegedly caused the acceleration to kick in, the AGW, isn't the key to the success because almost everyone achieves AGW with ease. Just stating that the stator magnet have to be stronger than the rotor magnets isn't the key to success either--because they are anyway. Obviously there's more to know about these two or three parameters than we've been drip fed as someone noted appropriately. By the end of the week I'll do experiments with my N38 and N35 neos and will try different stator magnet-stator bearing combinations which were also mentioned as a factor. In the meantime I'd like to know where the rest of us are with this and soon someone (not me, of course) should approach @alsetalokin and clarify whether or not he still can reproduce the effect shown in the first video. It very well may be that he has come upon that effect only by chance, without a clear understanding what combination of factors caused it, combination of factors which he now cannot reproduce. If that's the case, I think he should be upfront with it and should not feel embarrassed because that's a situation more common in scientific research than one would expect. In such cases embarrassing would be the tendency to hide that difficulty to reproduce experimental results pretending that everything is still OK.
@vipond50,
Thanks a lot. Your setup is beautifully made and I hope you'll meet with success soon. I should also repeat something I've said many times before--it is quite usual when doing scientific research to encounter difficulties when reproducing previous results. Sometimes it takes months if not years to do that. This is common for standard research, let alone for research of such unusual nature as the current one.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 03:45:46 AM
@cub3,
It doesn't seem that you're continuing anything to this thread. if you continue with your useless rantings I have no choice but to ignore you.
The red Weight is still a pulley!! My point earlier about Observation. And Bill the bracket on Lhs holding other pulley.
The blind lead the blind.
Youre collective egos ignored.
Learn to read.
Regards
Den
Quote from: cub3 on January 30, 2008, 05:02:44 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 03:45:46 AM
@cub3,
It doesn't seem that you're continuing anything to this thread. if you continue with your useless rantings I have no choice but to ignore you.
The red Weight is still a pulley!! My point earlier about Observation. And Bill the bracket on Lhs holding other pulley.
The blind lead the blind.
Youre collective egos ignored.
Learn to read.
Regards
Den
What is that supposed to mean? That red piece doesn't play the role of a pulley in the video. Or you have evidence that it does? Where is the evidence?
Quote from: cub3 on January 30, 2008, 05:02:44 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 03:45:46 AM
@cub3,
It doesn't seem that you're continuing anything to this thread. if you continue with your useless rantings I have no choice but to ignore you.
The red Weight is still a pulley!! My point earlier about Observation. And Bill the bracket on Lhs holding other pulley.
The blind lead the blind.
Youre collective egos ignored.
Learn to read.
Regards
Den
Cub you are bringing nothing to this thread with your ranting, if people want to do their own experiments then thats up to them, its their time and effort involved after all, how about YOU do something constructive??
Cub,
Following your logic, every internal combustion engine would have to be the exact same bore, stroke, number of cylinders, etc.
I pretty much disagree with your thinking. If "the effect" is so hard to duplicate that the planets have to align to produce it, it is not of much use. Internal combustion is a legitimate "effect" that can be harnessed in any number of configuration that vary all over the place. This "effect" should be reproducible in any number of configurations as well, if it is real.
If this supposed "effect" exists, there will be a wide range of values that will produce it, similar to the wide range of electric motors and gasoline motors, or other such devices that work on other "effects".
While Al's original video is impressive, I think it was faked. I think many of the replications are already close enough that someone should have produced some degree of success by now, and they really haven't. (in spite of what Sterling Allen calls success). There has been nothing demonstrated other than the original video that gives any credible evidence that this system can work. Only very subjective statements like " it seemed to accelerate", etc. There are no numbers yet to support any degree of success. Doesn't mean I think people should quit trying yet, but I am pretty skeptical at this point.
If you follow this stuff at all, you will recognize the pattern that is going on here. The last big one was the bedini "Mike" window motor about a year ago. It followed the same pattern. A "working" demo. A lot of hype. Lots of attempted replications. The original "inventor" drops off the face of the earth. The conspiracy theories about why he disappeared (anything but it was a fake in the first place). A lot of talk about how difficult it will be to produce the replication. Fighting over exact component specifications (that really shouldn't matter). Soon will come the credible evidence that the original video was a fake (because it probably was). The after a while things die down, because the next big one is taking off. It gets old after a while.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 05:07:37 AM
Quote from: cub3 on January 30, 2008, 05:02:44 AM
The red Weight is still a pulley!! My point earlier about Observation. And Bill the bracket on Lhs holding other pulley.
The blind lead the blind.
Youre collective egos ignored.
Learn to read.
Regards
Den
What is that supposed to mean? That red piece doesn't play the role of a pulley in the video. Or you have evidence that it does? Where is the evidence?
39 seconds into the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pmrSYV4zFI
"The pulley's are for eventual friction testing"
[.
.
.
@ Bill,
Please repost your pictures, as I have not yet seen them. Learn to ignore the rants of others, Bill.
@ Cub
If you want a spreadsheed, etc.. I say if you have the burden, go for it. Rantings do not assist the effort.
@ All
Bill contributed greatly, proving that the rotor weight does indeed matter greatly. This is important, to get our rotor weights to the exact weight given by Al.
Does anyone know how Sean's testing is going?
(Our correct sized rotor should be finished Friday and in the mail. You have no idea how frustrating it has been. My 6061-T6 alloy arrived yesterday. I will have it cut and drilled today.)
Cheers,
Bruce
EDIT:
I just weighed my rotor that is 3/8" short of Jason's blue print. Weight: 258 grams. ???
Sean's holiday is over and he went back to work so he isn't doing any testing for the time being
Forgive me if what I am about to say has been observed and test already.
After watching this video countless times (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pmrSYV4zFI) and closely watching this thread I notice something.
When AL move the stator on the left and right with his finger (the ones closest to the bottom of the video right at the first 33seconds of the video), to each turn of the stator the whole wheel turns very fast and sometimes accelerates momentarely. That happens to both stators BUT not the the stator on the back.
Pay close attention to section 17s to 21s specially and again at 23s to 30s when he moves the left stator but not so pronounced.
On seconds 14 to 16s and 31s to 35s when he flips the back stators nothing happens. On the 17s to 21s there is precisely at 18s where I see the acceleration being more pronounced for so little movement from the stator.
That we should be able to replicate without much of perfection of specs duplication. That acceleration I think is extremely important.
Fausto.
@ Bill
Please repost your photos. They are very relevant to the topic regardless of what the detractors have to say.
Also your observations are very intrigueing to say the least..
Keep up the great work Guys. ;)
Quote from: plengo on January 30, 2008, 10:20:31 AM
Forgive me if what I am about to say has been observed and test already.
After watching this video countless times (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pmrSYV4zFI) and closely watching this thread I notice something.
When AL move the stator on the left and right with his finger (the ones closest to the bottom of the video right at the first 33seconds of the video), to each turn of the stator the whole wheel turns very fast and sometimes accelerates momentarely. That happens to both stators BUT not the the stator on the back.
Pay close attention to section 17s to 21s specially and again at 23s to 30s when he moves the left stator but not so pronounced.
On seconds 14 to 16s and 31s to 35s when he flips the back stators nothing happens. On the 17s to 21s there is precisely at 18s where I see the acceleration being more pronounced for so little movement from the stator.
That we should be able to replicate without much of perfection of specs duplication. That acceleration I think is extremely important.
Fausto.
This observation has come up several times and was put as a question directly to Al @ steorn. His reply was that they all act the same, but it just depends on what part of the rotor happens to be facing the stator magnet at the time. Remember that the stators are placed in one of the 13 holes, so they will never be in symmetrical positions, one may cog a lot, one may not.
Quote from: RunningBare on January 30, 2008, 06:21:26 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 05:07:37 AM
Quote from: cub3 on January 30, 2008, 05:02:44 AM
The red Weight is still a pulley!! My point earlier about Observation. And Bill the bracket on Lhs holding other pulley.
The blind lead the blind.
Youre collective egos ignored.
Learn to read.
Regards
Den
What is that supposed to mean? That red piece doesn't play the role of a pulley in the video. Or you have evidence that it does? Where is the evidence?
39 seconds into the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pmrSYV4zFI "The pulley's are for eventual friction testing"
Therefore, the red piece doesn't play the role of a pulley in the video. In the video. So, is the weight 258g of @alsetalokin's rotor with or without that red piece?
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on January 30, 2008, 08:16:16 AM
@ Bill,
Please repost your pictures, as I have not yet seen them. Learn to ignore the rants of others, Bill.
@ Cub
If you want a spreadsheed, etc.. I say if you have the burden, go for it. Rantings do not assist the effort.
@ All
Bill contributed greatly, proving that the rotor weight does indeed matter greatly. This is important, to get our rotor weights to the exact weight given by Al.
Does anyone know how Sean's testing is going?
(Our correct sized rotor should be finished Friday and in the mail. You have no idea how frustrating it has been. My 6061-T6 alloy arrived yesterday. I will have it cut and drilled today.)
Cheers,
Bruce
EDIT:
I just weighed my rotor that is 3/8" short of Jason's blue print. Weight: 258 grams. ???
Please explain more. How do you mean "3/8" short of Jason's blue print"? Is it the thickness or the diameter and is it with or without the magnets?
Just out of curiosity, I decided to see if I could get stator agw lock to the ring magnets in my newman motor, see image
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcosmopod.com%2Fmysite%2Fbarefm%2Fop%2Fagwmotor.jpg&hash=88d2196f49d6e16669f46b2d92e8eec6319b4294)
The image represents looking down on the setup from above, the red bar is the motor spindle, the green is the coil, the black is the ring magnets and the grey is the stator lying on its side.
Sure enough I have got agw lock and it is still spinning merrily away as I type this, of course the newman motor is powered :wink:
The rotor is also spinning merrily away in the same plane as the newman motor on the left hand side of the setup.
Just posted for a little experimental fun, btw the agw stator spin has been going for 3 hours now.
Gotta do something while waiting for Alsetalokin to make an appearance (https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2FSmileys%2Fdefault%2Ftongue.gif&hash=712f6fec39e91e3e027f36075cd22a26ca109ea1)
That's neat. Does the Newman motor draw less current after agw lock?
Quote from: canam101 on January 30, 2008, 02:50:42 PM
That's neat. Does the Newman motor draw less current after agw lock?
No, approx 30ma without the stator in position and 40ma with stator, and it does not matter if its agw or gw.
Hi Group
Ok, after thirty years of working in the Engineering field I finally retired. I put up with all kinds of crap like most working Engineers do. Now I don't have to. Arm chair Engineering is needed, as some folks do not have the resources or abilities to take an idea from the chair and develop it into a working proto type. The way i was mentored and trained was to be capable to do this. I understand why Al changed his proto from a bearing mounted rotor to a shaft mounted supported system and this is why i move toward this in the second device. I constructed my first device and saw a instability that was corrected in the second device. We really do not have a true specification to follow, because if we did i would have followed it to a tee. So that being said the evolution of my experimenting of the OC MPMM will evolve as my background and instincts guide me.
I do not want to influence anyone with there choices relating to this Sudo replication, I say Sudo due to the fact that a generalized guide has been developed, but the specifics are yet to be revealed by Al. It is my hopes that all who work this are successful and learn something. This is what life is really all about a quest for knowledge.
Enough Stated and I apologize for being a bit off topic.
I have attach the Pic's of my second device and will attempt to answer any questions relating.
Thank You
Best Regards
Bill
@vipond50,
Thanks for putting the pictures back. What is the weight of your rotor with the magnets and the bearings? You may have said that already but I've missed it. Sorry if that's the case. I'd be willing to see also graphs of the magnetic induction as a function of rotation angle, similar to what I posted for mine, to compare notes. Good luck with the replication.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 12:21:24 PM
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on January 30, 2008, 08:16:16 AM
@ Bill,
Please repost your pictures, as I have not yet seen them. Learn to ignore the rants of others, Bill.
@ Cub
If you want a spreadsheed, etc.. I say if you have the burden, go for it. Rantings do not assist the effort.
@ All
Bill contributed greatly, proving that the rotor weight does indeed matter greatly. This is important, to get our rotor weights to the exact weight given by Al.
Does anyone know how Sean's testing is going?
(Our correct sized rotor should be finished Friday and in the mail. You have no idea how frustrating it has been. My 6061-T6 alloy arrived yesterday. I will have it cut and drilled today.)
Cheers,
Bruce
EDIT:
I just weighed my rotor that is 3/8" short of Jason's blue print. Weight: 258 grams. ???
Please explain more. How do you mean "3/8" short of Jason's blue print"? Is it the thickness or the diameter and is it with or without the magnets?
Omni,
I posted a photo of my set up and explained that the machine shop cut our rotor 3/8" shorter in diameter than it is supposed to be. They are rebuilding the rotor to the proper dimension.
But, if the dimensions are correct, and we are using the proper HDPE (there is only one type called HDPE as far as I can tell) why will all of our rotors be of the incorrect weight? Something does not add up.
Either the dimensions are wrong, OR the material is wrong. The rotor weight must be made to be exact, based on Bill's experiments. IMHO
@ Bill
Thanks for the pictures. You do very nice work. I may send my rotor off to you to carve out for me! LOL (When it arrives, that is! ;) )
Cheers,
Bruce
@Bruce-TPU,
Do I understand it correctly, just the HDPE part (without the magnets and the bearings) of your rotor which is 3/8" short of Jason's blue print weighs 258g, right?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 04:00:51 PM
@vipond50,
Thanks for putting the pictures back. What is the weight of your rotor with the magnets and the bearings? You may have said that already but I've missed it. Sorry if that's the case. I'd be willing to see also graphs of the magnetic induction as a function of rotation angle, similar to what I posted for mine, to compare notes. Good luck with the replication.
Hello Onmi
The mass of the rotor is 252.0 grams with the magnets. In this setup there are no bearing mass to measured, because they (bearings) are intergraded into the rotatable rotor support Ass.
I am currently waiting on a new Gauss meter very similar to yours and will be do a workup then.
BTW nice instrument.
Regards
Bill
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on January 30, 2008, 04:04:40 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 12:21:24 PM
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on January 30, 2008, 08:16:16 AM
@ Bill,
Please repost your pictures, as I have not yet seen them. Learn to ignore the rants of others, Bill.
@ Cub
If you want a spreadsheed, etc.. I say if you have the burden, go for it. Rantings do not assist the effort.
@ All
Bill contributed greatly, proving that the rotor weight does indeed matter greatly. This is important, to get our rotor weights to the exact weight given by Al.
Does anyone know how Sean's testing is going?
(Our correct sized rotor should be finished Friday and in the mail. You have no idea how frustrating it has been. My 6061-T6 alloy arrived yesterday. I will have it cut and drilled today.)
Cheers,
Bruce
EDIT:
I just weighed my rotor that is 3/8" short of Jason's blue print. Weight: 258 grams. ???
Please explain more. How do you mean "3/8" short of Jason's blue print"? Is it the thickness or the diameter and is it with or without the magnets?
Omni,
I posted a photo of my set up and explained that the machine shop cut our rotor 3/8" shorter in diameter than it is supposed to be. They are rebuilding the rotor to the proper dimension.
But, if the dimensions are correct, and we are using the proper HDPE (there is only one type called HDPE as far as I can tell) why will all of our rotors be of the incorrect weight? Something does not add up.
Either the dimensions are wrong, OR the material is wrong. The rotor weight must be made to be exact, based on Bill's experiments. IMHO
@ Bill
Thanks for the pictures. You do very nice work. I may send my rotor off to you to carve out for me! LOL (When it arrives, that is! ;) )
Cheers,
Bruce
Bruce
Relating to your rotor and mass removal, I am going to take the rotor in the Pic's and continue to remove mass (Sacrificial rotor)to observe the effect of how this mass reduction effect the way the device is responding. There may just be a area of less mass that will bring about Joy.
I do NOT recommend for others to do this, because if I muff it up I can always machine another rotor.
Bill
@vipond50,
Your rotor being closer than mine to the required weight will be more likely to produce positive results. On comparing notes, I wonder if our magnetic induction results would be comparable since my rig is made exactly according to Jason's drawings. Also, I hope you'll produce better graphs when your gaussmeter arrives by using a mechanism which would provide exact measurements of the rotation angle and the distance of the probe from the surface. Mine are deficient in that respect. Nevertheless, I'll be doing some more of these measurements tomorrow with the N38 and N35 magnets which I haven't tried yet. Seems these measurements still provide a good qualitative picture of what's happening.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 04:34:20 PM
@vipond50,
Your rotor being closer than mine to the required weight will be more likely to produce positive results. On comparing notes, I wonder if our magnetic induction results would be comparable since my rig is made exactly according to Jason's drawings. Also, I hope you'll produce better graphs when your gaussmeter arrives by using a mechanism which would provide exact measurements of the rotation angle and the distance of the probe from the surface. Mine are deficient in that respect. Nevertheless, I'll be doing some more of these measurements tomorrow with the N38 and N35 magnets which I haven't tried yet. Seems these measurements still provide a good qualitative picture of what's happening.
Hello Onmi
i will do my best to acquire the Data we seek, But one thing that could assist me as well as others is a procedure with a set specs, What's your thought's on this?
Bill
@vipond50,
I think @alsetalokin should be approached by someone next week when he comes back (he had said he has some other work to do this week and won't be around) to find out whether or not he can still reproduce the effect. If that's the case he should be asked if he could do the induction-rotation angle measurements and clearly state what the exact weight of the rotor in the video is (HDPE part plus the magnets and the red piece attached to it). You may add a few other things. I don't think that's too much to ask if he really cares to see that the effect shown in his video is reproduced by others.
Maybe a crazy brainwave, but I was playing with the ring magnets for my stator setup. They were mounted with bearings on a nylon axis.
I noticed that they act like a compass and have always a preferred direction to North/South.
(checked with a real compass)
I double checked the surrounding of these magnets, no metals around for at least 1.5 meter.
The question that popped up in my mind is:
Does the geographical orientation of our rigs matter?
Note: I am not able to test AGW yet. Still waiting for the right rotor magnets here.
Quote from: robbie47 on January 30, 2008, 06:25:06 PM
Maybe a crazy brainwave, but I was playing with the ring magnets for my stator setup. They were mounted with bearings on a nylon axis.
I noticed that they act like a compass and have always a preferred direction to North/South.
(checked with a real compass)
I double checked the surrounding of these magnets, no metals around for at least 1.5 meter.
The question that popped up in my mind is:
Does the geographical orientation of our rigs matter?
Note: I am not able to test AGW yet. Still waiting for the right rotor magnets here.
I love it! great question robbie!! your stator mags will want to orient N to magnetic N but does that tendency help the thing Spin?? Idonno... it's certainly something to play around with...
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 04:14:36 PM
@Bruce-TPU,
Do I understand it correctly, just the HDPE part (without the magnets and the bearings) of your rotor which is 3/8" short of Jason's blue print weighs 258g, right?
@ Omni
My current, incorrectly sized rotor, with magnets and two bearing weighs 258 grams. I have a very accurate digital scale.
So....the correctly sized rotor will be of the incorrect weight.
@ Bill
Please PM me, if you can assist in making my rotor the correct weight at a future date. Thanks!
Bill the tool man! ;D
Cheers,
Bruce
EDIT:But the question remains; Why is the weight of our rotors off by so much, using same material, etc? What or where is the problem?
Quote from: robbie47 on January 30, 2008, 06:25:06 PM
Maybe a crazy brainwave, but I was playing with the ring magnets for my stator setup. They were mounted with bearings on a nylon axis.
I noticed that they act like a compass and have always a preferred direction to North/South.
(checked with a real compass)
I double checked the surrounding of these magnets, no metals around for at least 1.5 meter.
The question that popped up in my mind is:
Does the geographical orientation of our rigs matter?
Note: I am not able to test AGW yet. Still waiting for the right rotor magnets here.
@ robbi47
Hey robbie,
I had the very same thought earlier today, but posted it at CLaNZeR's forum, because it is less hostile and more open to new ideas. Point in case, did you see how cub3 was treated here? It's sad that this thread has been hijacked relative to the OP's original query, which was very general in nature.
If you or your idea are treated hostily here, please don't give up (like I did).
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on January 30, 2008, 07:21:59 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 04:14:36 PM
@Bruce-TPU,
Do I understand it correctly, just the HDPE part (without the magnets and the bearings) of your rotor which is 3/8" short of Jason's blue print weighs 258g, right?
@ Omni
My current, incorrectly sized rotor, with magnets and two bearing weighs 258 grams. I have a very accurate digital scale.
So....the correctly sized rotor will be of the incorrect weight.
@ Bill
Please PM me, if you can assist in making my rotor the correct weight at a future date. Thanks!
Bill the tool man! ;D
Cheers,
Bruce
EDIT:
But the question remains; Why is the weight of our rotors off by so much, using same material, etc? What or where is the problem?
Indeed, why is the weight of our rotors off by so much? That is one of the central questions that have to be addressed when talking to @alsetalokin.
Also, wouldn't your incorrect rotor, now being of the correct weight of 258g, be away from the stator not at exactly 5mm which @alsetalokin emphasized to be a crucial parameter (not 4mm, not 6mm, but exactly 5mm)?
We must settle this issue with the rotor weight once and for all as well as the magnetic induction profile around rotor and stators, before we can ever expect to observe the effect in the video, I think.
It seems that we're faced with fewer parameters to play with and adjust compared to other instances, say, compared to making a working Wankel engine, correct? Of all the proposed magnetic motor this one and @xpenzif's seem to be the easiest (having fewer parameters) to optimize. That's why it seems so attractive.
QuoteThe question that popped up in my mind is:
Does the geographical orientation of our rigs matter?
Hi Robbie
My personal thought is not - particularly as Al's original demonstration video illustrated the motor being picked up from the desk whilst running, and the earth's EM field is very weak in any case - though of-course I'm only applying
conventional science in this case :-\
It's probable that deviations in the flux density or field concentricity of the magnets will have a far greater impact on your motor.
Particularly good lateral thinking though ;)
All the best,
FunkyJive
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on January 30, 2008, 07:21:59 PM
But the question remains; Why is the weight of our rotors off by so much, using same material, etc? What or where is the problem?
Is your rotor 18mm thick or 3/4"? I think this is maybe the biggest difference between the "plans" and Al's measurements.
"...
Here's an actual set of measurements made right now.
Material HDPE
rotor diameter 144mm (5.6692?)
rotor thickness 18mm (.7087?)
distance from OUTER EDGE of rotor, on a radius, to INNER EDGE of magnet slots 13 mm (.5118?)
slots are symmetrically arrayed 1/4? nominal width, 12 mm depth (.4724?)
slots cut in a single pass with a 2-fluted end mill 0.250?
..."
Also remember the 3/4 center that was later plugged with a piece of delrin (not sure what size hole was in the delrin)
And then the extra cutouts underneath for clearance for the bearing assembly, like Bill's setup.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 07:36:58 PM
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on January 30, 2008, 07:21:59 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 04:14:36 PM
@Bruce-TPU,
Do I understand it correctly, just the HDPE part (without the magnets and the bearings) of your rotor which is 3/8" short of Jason's blue print weighs 258g, right?
@ Omni
My current, incorrectly sized rotor, with magnets and two bearing weighs 258 grams. I have a very accurate digital scale.
So....the correctly sized rotor will be of the incorrect weight.
@ Bill
Please PM me, if you can assist in making my rotor the correct weight at a future date. Thanks!
Bill the tool man! ;D
Cheers,
Bruce
EDIT:
But the question remains; Why is the weight of our rotors off by so much, using same material, etc? What or where is the problem?
Indeed, why is the weight of our rotors off by so much? That is one of the central questions that have to be addressed when talking to @alsetalokin.
Also, wouldn't your incorrect rotor, now being of the correct weight of 258g, be away from the stator not at exactly 5mm which @alsetalokin emphasized to be a crucial parameter (not 4mm, not 6mm, but exactly 5mm)?
We must settle this issue with the rotor weight once and for all as well as the magnetic induction profile around rotor and stators, before we can ever expect to observe the effect in the video, I think.
It seems that we're faced with fewer parameters to play with and adjust compared to other instances, say, compared to making a working Wankel engine, correct? Of all the proposed magnetic motor this one and @xpenzif's seem to be the easiest (having fewer parameters) to optimize. That's why it seems so attractive.
Hi Omni,
The fact that the stator is so far from the rotor is how I figured out that the rotor was not cut to specs! This is why I have had NO test results. Not until I have the proper sized rotor. But...It will be the wrong weight. Why? A.) Wrong material B.) Wrong dimension C.) Al's scale is off D.) He weighed without the magnets or bearing. *This would get us closer, if that is the case.
Cheers,
Bruce
@ken_nyus,
The thickness of my rotor is slightly over 20mm (measured with a micrometer). Jason?s drawings require ?? thickness, that is 0.75 x 25.4 = 19.05mm.
The diameter of my rotor is approx. 147mm (measured with a ruler). Jason?s drawings require 2 x 2.875?, that is 5.75 x 25.4 = 146.05mm.
I wonder if these slight discrepancies would lead to the 45g difference between my 303g rotor (HDPE + magnets + two bearings) and the required 258g rotor of the original. Don?t know what the density of HDPE is.
I?m stuck with it for now (don?t know what the weight of the other rig I don?t have with me at this moment). These discrepancies do not affect the measurements of the magnetic induction profile of rotor and stator, though. I've already measured it for my N42 and have posted it here. Probably tomorrow I'll do it for my N38 and N35 magnets. Will try them also assembled to see if they'd make any difference.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on January 30, 2008, 07:57:45 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 07:36:58 PM
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on January 30, 2008, 07:21:59 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 04:14:36 PM
@Bruce-TPU,
Do I understand it correctly, just the HDPE part (without the magnets and the bearings) of your rotor which is 3/8" short of Jason's blue print weighs 258g, right?
@ Omni
My current, incorrectly sized rotor, with magnets and two bearing weighs 258 grams. I have a very accurate digital scale.
So....the correctly sized rotor will be of the incorrect weight.
@ Bill
Please PM me, if you can assist in making my rotor the correct weight at a future date. Thanks!
Bill the tool man! ;D
Cheers,
Bruce
EDIT:
But the question remains; Why is the weight of our rotors off by so much, using same material, etc? What or where is the problem?
Indeed, why is the weight of our rotors off by so much? That is one of the central questions that have to be addressed when talking to @alsetalokin.
Also, wouldn't your incorrect rotor, now being of the correct weight of 258g, be away from the stator not at exactly 5mm which @alsetalokin emphasized to be a crucial parameter (not 4mm, not 6mm, but exactly 5mm)?
We must settle this issue with the rotor weight once and for all as well as the magnetic induction profile around rotor and stators, before we can ever expect to observe the effect in the video, I think.
It seems that we're faced with fewer parameters to play with and adjust compared to other instances, say, compared to making a working Wankel engine, correct? Of all the proposed magnetic motor this one and @xpenzif's seem to be the easiest (having fewer parameters) to optimize. That's why it seems so attractive.
Hi Omni,
The fact that the stator is so far from the rotor is how I figured out that the rotor was not cut to specs! This is why I have had NO test results. Not until I have the proper sized rotor. But...It will be the wrong weight. Why? A.) Wrong material B.) Wrong dimension C.) Al's scale is off D.) He weighed without the magnets or bearing. *This would get us closer, if that is the case.
Cheers,
Bruce
We've got to clarify this problem with @alsetalokin. I'll do what I can with what I have throughout the weekend but we do need more input from the original constructor.
I wish more details were known about the Lego motor: http://youtube.com/watch?v=wcy0tedYBMg which is the best example so far for the application of the principle at hand, especially its self-starting, aside from the acceleration seen in the video. We have to work with what we have, however, and should only hope that the Mike story (wetting everybody's appetite followed by a sudden disappearance) from that unfortunate Bedini window motor thread won't repeat itself.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 08:14:55 PM
@ken_nyus,
The thickness of my rotor is slightly over 20mm (measured with a micrometer). Jason?s drawings require ?? thickness, that is 0.75 x 25.4 = 19.05mm.
The diameter of my rotor is approx. 147mm (measured with a ruler). Jason?s drawings require 2 x 2.875?, that is 5.75 x 25.4 = 146.05mm.
I wonder if these slight discrepancies would lead to the 45g difference between my 303g rotor (HDPE + magnets + two bearings) and the required 258g rotor of the original. Don?t know what the density of HDPE is.
I?m stuck with it for now (don?t know what the weight of the other rig I don?t have with me at this moment). These discrepancies do not affect the measurements of the magnetic induction profile of rotor and stator, though. I've already measured it for my N42 and have posted it here. Probably tomorrow I'll do it for my N38 and N35 magnets. Will try them also assembled to see if they'd make any difference.
Hello
One thing that would be nice to know is what spec of HDPE was your rotors made out of ?
More than likely it is ASTM D4976, but if one wanted to know for sure call the shops and ask for the ASTM spec. and or have them track it down.
There are several possiblities
QuoteI wonder if these slight discrepancies would lead to the 45g difference between my 303g rotor (HDPE + magnets + two bearings) and the required 258g rotor of the original. Don?t know what the density of HDPE is.
Hi Omnibus.
If I'm sufficiently awake to do the math correctly (almost 2am UK time !), the increased dimensions of your rotor would add a mere 6% to the total weight -
though this only being the case if you were comparing like-for-like of HDPE alone. In such a case the extra dimensions over Jason's would only bring it to a tad over 274g.
However, as there are added weights of the bearings and magnets in both cases then the weight contribution of the added HDPE material becomes even
less (HDPE clearly being lighter than that of the bearings and magnets), so the extra dimensions certainly don't appear to be the main contributor to the significant weight difference.
All the best,
FunkyJive
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 08:50:22 PM
I wish more details were known about the Lego motor: http://youtube.com/watch?v=wcy0tedYBMg which is the best example so far for the application of the principle at hand, especially its self-starting, aside from the acceleration seen in the video. We have to work with what we have, however, and should only hope that the Mike story (wetting everybody's appetite followed by a sudden disappearance) from that unfortunate Bedini window motor thread won't repeat itself.
@ Omni
I agree 100%. Althought it's been called a fake, I'm not aware of any replication attempts.
The Lego parts are readily available and all dimensions can be obtained from the video, since the lego blocks have documented features.
I am seriously thinking about attempting replication -- just to see what the true response is. ;D
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
@YADA,
yada, yada, yada,
to attempt a replication you must have all of the parameters, otherwise you will be trapped into the same loop as the asetelokin replicators that do not have a clue as to what they are replicating, but religiously stand their ground. but good luck in your attempts, because if you do attempt you might be the first to actually have something of Merritt!
lol
sam
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 08:50:22 PM
I wish more details were known about the Lego motor: http://youtube.com/watch?v=wcy0tedYBMg which is the best example so far for the application of the principle at hand, especially its self-starting, aside from the acceleration seen in the video. We have to work with what we have, however, and should only hope that the Mike story (wetting everybody's appetite followed by a sudden disappearance) from that unfortunate Bedini window motor thread won't repeat itself.
Do a frame by frame on that Lego motor and you can easily tell it is a fake.... unfortunately.
Quote from: FunkyJive on January 30, 2008, 09:00:02 PM
QuoteI wonder if these slight discrepancies would lead to the 45g difference between my 303g rotor (HDPE + magnets + two bearings) and the required 258g rotor of the original. Don?t know what the density of HDPE is.
Hi Omnibus.
If I'm sufficiently awake to do the math correctly (almost 2am UK time !), the increased dimensions of your rotor would add a mere 6% to the total weight - though this only being the case if you were comparing like-for-like of HDPE alone. In such a case the extra dimensions over Jason's would only bring it to a tad over 274g.
However, as there are added weights of the bearings and magnets in both cases then the weight contribution of the added HDPE material becomes even less (HDPE clearly being lighter than that of the bearings and magnets), so the extra dimensions certainly don't appear to be the main contributor to the significant weight difference.
All the best,
FunkyJive
For the record, the eight magnets weigh 24g in all and the bearings are approx. 3g. Thus, had I had the right dimensions my rotor would've weighed 301g rather than 303g as it is weighing now.
Quote from: JFK on January 30, 2008, 10:24:41 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 30, 2008, 08:50:22 PM
I wish more details were known about the Lego motor: http://youtube.com/watch?v=wcy0tedYBMg which is the best example so far for the application of the principle at hand, especially its self-starting, aside from the acceleration seen in the video. We have to work with what we have, however, and should only hope that the Mike story (wetting everybody's appetite followed by a sudden disappearance) from that unfortunate Bedini window motor thread won't repeat itself.
Do a frame by frame on that Lego motor and you can easily tell it is a fake.... unfortunately.
I'm looking at it frame by frame and it doesn't appear to be a fake. Maybe you have something more concrete to say in this respect?
The rotor magnets are too random with their interaction with the stator magnets and at times *should* bring it to a halt.
Concentrate on the magnet alignment.
Quote from: JFK on January 30, 2008, 10:55:04 PM
The rotor magnets are too random with their interaction with the stator magnets and at times *should* bring it to a halt.
Concentrate on the magnet alignment.
I've seen that but that can't serve as an argument that it's a fake. Magnet alignment in @alsetalokin's case is weird also. In addition to alignment there's varying kinetic energy (not only due to the rotation of the main rotor) also helping to overcome the sticky spots if the timing is right. Also, it isn't obvious that these sticky spots appear at the same time with the different magnet pairs. No, that's not a straightforward, cut and dry situation.
Quote from: supersam on January 30, 2008, 09:52:43 PM
@YADA,
yada, yada, yada,
to attempt a replication you must have all of the parameters, otherwise you will be trapped into the same loop as the asetelokin replicators that do not have a clue as to what they are replicating, but religiously stand their ground. but good luck in your attempts, because if you do attempt you might be the first to actually have something of Merritt!
lol
sam
@ sam
I've begun CAD-ing the Lego device using screenshots of the video and block/dimensions provided on Lego's web site.
For example, the rotor appears to be the standard 10" by 10" large green Lego baseplate:
... Lego Green Rotor(?) http://shop.lego.com/ByCategory/Product.aspx?p=626&cn=146
It's a start. I agree that without support from the original builder my chances of achieving anything are slim.
If I make
significant progress I will announce it here, but post results to the existing Lego thread
... http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3346.0;topicseen
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
OK, I can agree to disagree on the Lego motor. ;)
I do believe Al's design has a serious chance though.
Thanks, @Yadaraf, I'll be following your efforts closely because reproducing the Lego motor is even more important than @alsetalokin's. They are based on the same principles (as all magnet motors are) but as a concrete performance of the construction the Lego is better. As a matter of fact, if don't learn more from @alsetalokin about the weight of the rotor, the rotor and stator magnetic induction profiles and a few other things, reproducing the Lego won't be much different from reproducing @alsetalokin's motor in terms of an absent constructor.
Quote from: JFK on January 30, 2008, 11:11:04 PM
OK, I can agree to disagree on the Lego motor. ;)
I do believe Al's design has a serious chance though.
No matter what agreements or disagreements we might have at this point one thing is clear, if no independent party succeeds in replicating these motors, they will stay illegitimate as any other magnetic motor in history. Constructors with such claims as the Lego and the present one somehow don't understand that it's in their best interest to be cooperative and even to go out of their way to help others to reproduce the effects they claim.
That I CAN and DO agree with. ;)
@ replicators
Look up the meaning of he word "conned".
He is not the messiah, he's just a very naughty boy !!!
Let it go guys !!!
Nice work all the same, but at some point you really have to take a long hard look at the facts.
Cheers,
Dean
Have we yet had a one hundred percent accurate replication, including weights, magnet separation etc. I think not.
Give up? HA! I don't think so!!
What we need is more replicators, and a few more facts. Everyone be patient. Let's take baby steps in the right direction and we will get it.
Some are so quick to quit and so quick to declare things a hoax, one has to wonder why? What is their motive? I think that some on this board just take pleasure in it.
We will not be dissuaded until we have proven the device to ourselves, one way or another. I am looking to make my unit work. Period.
All of you naysayers, need not torture yourself with our foolish work. So please go and haunt another board or thread. ;)
And that is my honest opinion.
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: FunkyJive on January 30, 2008, 09:00:02 PM
QuoteI wonder if these slight discrepancies would lead to the 45g difference between my 303g rotor (HDPE + magnets + two bearings) and the required 258g rotor of the original. Don?t know what the density of HDPE is.
Hi Omnibus.
If I'm sufficiently awake to do the math correctly (almost 2am UK time !), the increased dimensions of your rotor would add a mere 6% to the total weight - though this only being the case if you were comparing like-for-like of HDPE alone. In such a case the extra dimensions over Jason's would only bring it to a tad over 274g.
However, as there are added weights of the bearings and magnets in both cases then the weight contribution of the added HDPE material becomes even less (HDPE clearly being lighter than that of the bearings and magnets), so the extra dimensions certainly don't appear to be the main contributor to the significant weight difference.
All the best,
FunkyJive
Funny. I get approximately 260 grams. What formulas did you use? Seems to me the 258 grams Al posted should be just about right for the materials Omnibus used on a slightly larger scale.
the density of the material should be some 892 grams/liter.
Come to think of it: there's some serious issues working at this scale.
Even if somehow you manage to get your rotor to 258 grams to the dimensions posted by Al, there's still the matter of weight distribution within the piece itself and the balance of the rotor.
Car wheels that wheigh in at some 20 kilos start to get a little vibration at 100km/h (or 1200 rpm) if the balance of the wheel is off by some 50-100 grams.
Thinking, can one stator have One-way Bearing ::)
http://rc-toy.de/multistore/product_info.php/info/p655_H60021T-One-way-Bearing.html
One of the things that Sean mentioned on the Steorn site was the need for "poor quality" magnets.
Presumably this would be best applied to the rotor magnets, and would contribute to the magnetic delay that's needed to get this thing going. At this point, I think that it's important to note that Al's motor ran equally well in both directions, suggesting to me that a magnetic delay is probably occurring.
So maybe Al used older crappy rotor magnets that he happened to had lying around, and the rest of you are using fresh, off-the-shelf magnets that have their magnetic domains so firmly locked into place, that they cannot be modulated by the spinning stator magnet.
Anyway, something to consider...
@All,
Now I've replaced the rotor N42's with N35 neos (~28mm separation) Again, achieving AGW is relatively easy, as was with the N42's, but I still don't see any acceleration in this rig I'm studying. Unfortunately, I still don't have the equipment to check quantitatively what appeared to be acceleration in the other setup I was studying. I'll stick with this contraption for now because it's the closest to the original. Will have to check different ring magnet-stator bearing combinations.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on January 31, 2008, 08:31:25 AM
Have we yet had a one hundred percent accurate replication, including weights, magnet separation etc. I think not.
And that would be because .... umm . you dont even have the correct spec ??
It would seem to me a waste of time replicating without the basic facts would it not ?
Cheers,
Dean
Guy's
One adjustment to try is to slide the rotor magnets in the slot to the left or right of the center line, Of coarse this would have to be done with all magnets to keep the symmetry. This will give a few mm change in the rotor magnet radius. In my rotor I see approximately 3.5 mm change measuring form the inside edge of the slot to the inside edge of the Stator magnet.
Just something to keep in mind being the true radius is an unknown.
Regards
Bill
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on January 31, 2008, 04:51:29 AM
@ replicators
Look up the meaning of he word "conned".
He is not the messiah, he's just a very naughty boy !!!
Let it go guys !!!
Nice work all the same, but at some point you really have to take a long hard look at the facts.
Cheers,
Dean
I'll take this to mean you do not have a replication?
@vipond50,
Thanks. That's a very clever suggestion.
I still think that the counter rotating stator magnet was not exactly 120 degrees in alignment with the others. It looks like it's out of alignment by about 10 degrees to the right in the video. Maybe it's just an optical illusion, but since nothing else is working, why don't you fellows try moving the counter rotating stator magnet closer to one of the other stators, maybe 10-20 degrees down the circle.
I drew a quick picture to show you what I mean. I have a feeling that if it's going to work, it will work with this type of arrangement. Someone atleast try this, or if you have already tried it, what happened?
Thanks,
Charlie
QuoteQuote from: FunkyJive on Today at 02:00:02 AM
Quote
I wonder if these slight discrepancies would lead to the 45g difference between my 303g rotor (HDPE + magnets + two bearings) and the required 258g rotor of the original. Don?t know what the density of HDPE is.
Hi Omnibus.
If I'm sufficiently awake to do the math correctly (almost 2am UK time !), the increased dimensions of your rotor would add a mere 6% to the total weight - though this only being the case if you were comparing like-for-like of HDPE alone. In such a case the extra dimensions over Jason's would only bring it to a tad over 274g.
However, as there are added weights of the bearings and magnets in both cases then the weight contribution of the added HDPE material becomes even less (HDPE clearly being lighter than that of the bearings and magnets), so the extra dimensions certainly don't appear to be the main contributor to the significant weight difference.
All the best,
FunkyJive
Funny. I get approximately 260 grams. What formulas did you use? Seems to me the 258 grams Al posted should be just about right for the materials Omnibus used on a slightly larger scale.
the density of the material should be some 892 grams/liter.
Hi Morgenster.
We know that the volume of a cylinder is ÃŽÂ r
2h, where h represents the rotor thickness.
Therefore calculate the volume of the cylinder in both cases from the dimensions given?
Dia = 147mm, height = 20mm, volume = 339433.4mm (rounded)
Dia = 146.05mm, height = 19.05mm, therefore volume = 319145.0mm (rounded)
You could omit ÃŽÂ (pi) as it is simply a multiplication constant for both cases, though I?ve included it for general completeness when calculating cylinder volume.
Now compare the relative difference of Omnibus' rotor to the lighter?
339433.4 / 319145.0 = 1.06
Omnibus'
calculated weight would therefore be 1.06 x 100% = 106% of the lighter, or in other words, +6% by weight.
Now assuming for a moment that you are looking at plain un-drilled HDPE cylinders (as in the above), and multiplying the stated 258g of the original (i.e. with the smaller dimensions), then 258 x 1.06 = a tad over 273g.
Already this doesn?t equate if the HDPE in both cases is of the same material density and the magnets and bearings are also assumed to be the same.
Furthermore, if we assume that the fitted bearings and magnets for both rotors have the same weight, which also reduces the amount of plastic weight contribution in the above calculation, then the total rotor weight brought about by the different plastic dimensions alone should actually be something
less than 273g, although Omnibus? rotor was weighing in at a total of 303g.
This therefore suggests that the 45g overall discrepancy is unlikely to be in the magnets and bearings (weighing only 27g in total), or the dimensional differences in the rotor (303g >> 273g), so this would therefore suggest differences in the rotor material density as the most
likely.
Hmmm... I hope that's right :-\
FunkyJive
@vipond50,
Just tried with the rotor magnets (N35) shifted symmetrically to the left and then to the right, as you suggested. No joy.
Will do some more trials (haven't tried the N38's yet) but probably the rotor weight is the culprit.
@Charlie_V,
The stators aren't symmetric around the rotor to begin with (they are not the way you've presented them). Recall, there are 13 holes and the rotor where the AGW is to be achieved is outstanding 3 holes from each one of the other two stators. These other two stators are away 3 and 4 holes each from the other two stators.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 31, 2008, 06:43:05 PM
@vipond50,
Just tried with the rotor magnets (N35) shifted symmetrically to the left and then to the right, as you suggested. No joy.
@onmi
I tried this also and had the same results, Looking forward to your insertion of the N35's and well hoping for Joy.
Bill
@vipond50,
Just tried it with the N38 which seem to be the closest to the ones in the original (separation 30.5mm as reported by @alsetalokin as well). Here again, achieving AGW straightforward but no apparent acceleration. Haven't tried other ring magnet-stator bearing combinations. Maybe that's the next thing to do being stuck with the rotor weight of 303g.
EDIT: As a first trial, I just reshuffled the stator magnets placing the other two in turn as the driving AGW stator. Nothing changed. Later I'll replace the ring magnets and the bearings with different ones. It's slightly a busy work so we'll see when I'll get ready.
Just saw this on ClanZer's Group
Was posted by JustMaybe
Snip:
Having been alerted to the assymetrical rotor magnet layout I did some cad work on the rotor layout, sized the photo to 144mm diameter and took some measurements. Note, due to the fisheye distortion of the camera lens the measurements may be a bit off (13mm long magnets for example), however, the relationships should be the same. In short, the North poles are closer together than the South poles, and may explain why your symetrical layout doesn't self sustain. I haven't time today to change my rig, so please, someone check this out.
JM
@vipond50,
The question is, is this rotor the same (with regard to the configuration of the rotor magnets) as the one we see in the video? Won't hurt to try it, though.
EDIT: Nope. That didn't help either.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 31, 2008, 07:22:38 PM
@vipond50,
The question is, is this rotor the same (with regard to the configuration of the rotor magnets) as the one we see in the video? Won't hurt to try it, though.
EDIT: Nope. That didn't help either.
@ Onmi
Did u get the mea's to come out the full diameter of the rotor ?
B.
Just an armchair observer so far (although I am buying some lego to play with as funds allow :) ), if you remember that Al said that some stator magnet & bearing combinations just would`nt work at all, I assume he referring to acceleration and not just the AGW rotation, might be worth trying?
Quote from: vipond50 on January 31, 2008, 07:18:41 PM
Just saw this on ClanZer's Group
Was posted by JustMaybe
Snip:
Having been alerted to the assymetrical rotor magnet layout I did some cad work on the rotor layout, sized the photo to 144mm diameter and took some measurements. Note, due to the fisheye distortion of the camera lens the measurements may be a bit off (13mm long magnets for example), however, the relationships should be the same. In short, the North poles are closer together than the South poles, and may explain why your symetrical layout doesn't self sustain. I haven't time today to change my rig, so please, someone check this out.
JM
Notice how that top stator is oriented wrongly, unless AL marked it incorrectly the black half should be facing the rotor
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D3871.0%3Battach%3D17056%3Bimage&hash=76f750242bdfc0fe8b9e69e09330700f168bc1e0)
Hi All,
Is there any reason Al cant take his original working motor device outside and in "BROAD DAYLIGHT" make a "QUALITY"movie clip of it working on a glass top table. He can start it any way he wishes then let it run and "telephoto it" operating at a distance without standing close to it. He already claimed he had it running for hours?????
Credibility would then be established. As it is everyone is second guessing and no real working replications have been made as of this date.
Dark movie clips and and a inventor who will not release his true name dont cut it. My thoughts are he is using the entire world as his final testing lab to see if anyone can get his basic idea really working.
Then he will step forward when thats accomplished by some one else and take full credit. I see Butch and some others quit trying to replicate it.
Tom
Quote from: Lakes on January 31, 2008, 07:41:08 PM
Just an armchair observer so far (although I am buying some lego to play with as funds allow :) ), if you remember that Al said that some stator magnet & bearing combinations just would`nt work at all, I assume he referring to acceleration and not just the AGW rotation, might be worth trying?
Yeah, that's what I meant. I'll try later with different combinations. AGW isn't difficult to achieve, it's the acceleration (the effect, that is) we're trying to achieve.
@vipond50,
I tried to place the North poles similar to what's in the pic. Otherwise the diameter is slightly off (by 1-2mm) than what in Jason's drawings.
Quote from: magnetman12003 on January 31, 2008, 08:08:13 PM
Hi All,
Is there any reason Al cant take his original working motor device outside and in "BROAD DAYLIGHT" make a "QUALITY"movie clip of it working on a glass top table. He can start it any way he wishes then let it run and "telephoto it" operating at a distance without standing close to it. He already claimed he had it running for hours?????
Credibility would then be established. As it is everyone is second guessing and no real working replications have been made as of this date.
Dark movie clips and and a inventor who will not release his true name dont cut it. My thoughts are he is using the entire world as his final testing lab to see if anyone can get his basic idea really working.
Then he will step forward when thats accomplished by some one else and take full credit. I see Butch and some others quit trying to replicate it.
Tom
His reason is his schedule, and hes made it quite clear he will not succumb to pressure or demands.
After he initially posted the video he got a lot of that.
You also have to take into account that he specifically says that the video proves nothing and that OU is NOT possible.
He has maintained his stance on this throughout his posts on the steorn forum and FizzX.com.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 31, 2008, 08:16:33 PM
@vipond50,
I tried to place the North poles similar to what's in the pic. Otherwise the diameter is slightly off (by 1-2mm) than what in Jason's drawings.
@ Onmi
Excellent, Glad to here that is is close, Helps confirm that the radius relative.
B.
@magnetman12003,
That's all right, the credit will go to him and to whoever reproduces it. Unless the working device reproduced doesn't follow his specifications.
As for what he says regarding whether or not this is OU that should be ignored altogether. It's not up to him to judge what is and what isn't. I've had prior discussions with him and have determined that his understanding of the subtleties of science is wanting. Let's see the effect shown in the video continuing for 7.5 hours, as claimed, and then see how anybody can deny it's OU.
Hello All,
I have my 6061 T-6 cut drilled and mounted. New machined rotor is being worked on today. I hope to be with Bill and Omni, Jason and Hank if a few short days when rotor arrives.
A few thoughts:
Weight of the rotor matters. Bill showed this by experimentation and just plain logic dictates it.
AGW lock with the rotor is so unique. Many thought it could just be slapped together and work. If that were the case, someone probably already would have seen this effect and had a working unit.
So, we must get our rotor's down to the proper weight. We must also interchange bearings and stator magnets, looking for a working couple. But I think rotor weight is the first thing to address.
@ Bill
Thanks for posting the rotor measurements from Clanzer's forum. I will use them with my new rotor, when it arrives.
Let's take our time, and go step by step. There is no rush. Accuracy is needed.
@ Omni
I am glad that you found 30.5 mm separation N38's. Please post the link from where you purchased them. Thank you.
Cheers all,
Bruce
@Bruce-TPU,
Getting the stator to rotate AGW is no problem at all. Turns out, however, that it's not the solution. @alsetalokin has left the impression that once he made the "mistake" to have the stator turn AGW, voila, the effect kicked in. Not so.
I'd like to know what the rotor weights of @Craigy's and @CLaNZeR's are. It seemed they had some lighter rotors. I do agree, though, that the rotor weight is a crucial parameter and we have to work on that problem. First, someone has to approach @alsetalokin next week and see if he still can reproduce the effect and if so what the rotor weight is as wel as the magnetic induction profile of the stator and rotor. If he isn't cooperative enough we have to play with various weights and compare notes regarding the magnetic induction profiles.
As for the N38 magnets I got them from http://www.engconcepts.net/List_Of_Cylinder_Magnets.asp. I think they are CYL0175.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 31, 2008, 09:02:53 PM
@Bruce-TPU,
Getting the stator to rotate AGW is no problem at all. Turns out, however, that it's not the solution. @alsetalokin has left the impression that once he made the "mistake" to have the stator turn AGW, voila, the effect kicked in. Not so.
I'd like to know what the rotor weights of @Craigy's and @CLaNZeR's are. It seemed they had some lighter rotors. I do agree, though, that the rotor weight is a crucial parameter and we have to work on that problem. First, someone has to approach @alsetalokin next week and see if he still can reproduce the effect and if so what the rotor weight is as wel as the magnetic induction profile of the stator and rotor. If he isn't cooperative enough we have to play with various weights and compare notes regarding the magnetic induction profiles.
As for the N38 magnets I got them from http://www.engconcepts.net/List_Of_Cylinder_Magnets.asp. I think they are CYL0175.
Thanks Onmi
I'll order in a batch
B.
Now the time has come to check various ring-bearing combinations. Problem is, all the bearings I have come from the same source. Same for the ring magnets. As far as I remember @alsetalokin had bearings lying around in his lab from unknown, probably different sources. So, I wonder if it would make sense to try out my bearings which come from a single source. It's not that I'm getting lazy and am trying to find excuses but will it make sense?
One clue I would like to put out there for the bearings is this photo, this is the only one I have seen of the bearings, look at the upside down stator in the lower left of the photo:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fal10.jpg&hash=b0226bab2b9fbfa80ba48be0ce0a7f0e95e01548)
The bearing is a little unusual to me, in that the outer race seems very thick.
Now one set of bearings that I ordered does look just like that, but the funny thing is they are bearings with ceramic balls, but they do have that thick looking outer race.
Quote from: ken_nyus on January 31, 2008, 10:20:08 PM
One clue I would like to put out there for the bearings is this photo, this is the only one I have seen of the bearings, look at the upside down stator in the lower left of the photo:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fal10.jpg&hash=b0226bab2b9fbfa80ba48be0ce0a7f0e95e01548)
The bearing is a little unusual to me, in that the outer race seems very thick.
Now one set of bearings that I ordered does look just like that, but the funny thing is they are bearings with ceramic balls, but they do have that thick looking outer race.
@ Ken
Yes I see what U mean. To bad someone could not cleanup the photo and pull the bearing number.
Would be Sweet to find out what it was
Bill
The more I'm looking at my rig the more the old problem seems to be popping up--as many have already said, the weights, especially the rotor weight may be the crucial factor, now that we have the proper magnets (I hope so). Not so much the bearings but the weights and the interplay of the fields due to the mutual disposition of the magnets. But then, again, why didn't @Craigy and @CLaNZeR get positive results with their seemingly lighter rotors. Could it be they were too light? Anybody know what their rotors' exact weight was?
One tends to think that a flywheel effect should be utilized but the flywheel may be just too heavy and won't allow the effect itself to emerge.
@All,
I wanna report the following. I just replaced a ring magnet and a bearing with a brand new (unused) ring magnet and an R3 bearing from the new batch I received today. With this new pair I wasn't able to achieve AGW no matter how much I tried. This time I didn't apply the Liquid Wrench Lubricating and Penetrating Oil I treated the old bearings with. When I replaced that new ring-bearing pair with an old one achieving AGW became easy again. Go figure.
EDIT: Now that I applied that penetrating lubricating oil my new ring-bearing pair is happily AGW-ing. So, the role of that penetrating oil someone was mentioning earlier in the thread cannot be overemphasized.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 31, 2008, 10:57:17 PM
The more I'm looking at my rig the more the old problem seems to be popping up--as many have already said, the weights, especially the rotor weight may be the crucial factor, now that we have the proper magnets (I hope so). Not so much the bearings but the weights and the interplay of the fields due to the mutual disposition of the magnets. But then, again, why didn't @Craigy and @CLaNZeR get positive results with their seemingly lighter rotors. Could it be they were too light? Anybody know what their rotors' exact weight was?
One tends to think that a flywheel effect should be utilized but the flywheel may be just too heavy and won't allow the effect itself to emerge.
ALL,
As previously mentioned.
This place needs a database (spreadsheet of Al's. / and everyones initial & subsequent dimensional & constructional modifications, with a time line showing further changes, results etc. Most important.
Regards
Den
Quote from: cub3 on January 31, 2008, 11:43:00 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 31, 2008, 10:57:17 PM
The more I'm looking at my rig the more the old problem seems to be popping up--as many have already said, the weights, especially the rotor weight may be the crucial factor, now that we have the proper magnets (I hope so). Not so much the bearings but the weights and the interplay of the fields due to the mutual disposition of the magnets. But then, again, why didn't @Craigy and @CLaNZeR get positive results with their seemingly lighter rotors. Could it be they were too light? Anybody know what their rotors' exact weight was?
One tends to think that a flywheel effect should be utilized but the flywheel may be just too heavy and won't allow the effect itself to emerge.
ALL,
As previously mentioned.
This place needs a database (spreadsheet of Al's. / and everyones initial & subsequent dimensional & constructional modifications, with a time line showing further changes, results etc. Most important.
Regards
Den
Hi Den
Well your idea ;D, which is good , put it together and i am sure others will add or make available the data.
Cheers
B.
Check the shadow of the main rotor in @Al's video. the rotor is not in the exact centre. You can compare the shadow distance with the static bits around the outside of the main rotor.
Edit. also looking at the shadow of the centre of the main rotor in the strobed video the same effect can be seen, however would perfer it if someone with better picture analysis would confirm this observation.
Quote from: vipond50 on February 01, 2008, 12:10:58 AM
Quote from: cub3 on January 31, 2008, 11:43:00 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 31, 2008, 10:57:17 PM
The more I'm looking at my rig the more the old problem seems to be popping up--as many have already said, the weights, especially the rotor weight may be the crucial factor, now that we have the proper magnets (I hope so). Not so much the bearings but the weights and the interplay of the fields due to the mutual disposition of the magnets. But then, again, why didn't @Craigy and @CLaNZeR get positive results with their seemingly lighter rotors. Could it be they were too light? Anybody know what their rotors' exact weight was?
One tends to think that a flywheel effect should be utilized but the flywheel may be just too heavy and won't allow the effect itself to emerge.
ALL,
As previously mentioned.
This place needs a database (spreadsheet of Al's. / and everyones initial & subsequent dimensional & constructional modifications, with a time line showing further changes, results etc. Most important.
Regards
Den
Hi Den
Well your ideaÃ, ;D, which is good , put it together and i am sure others will add or make available the data.
Cheers
B.
Of course it is good it should have been implemented at the very start of any replicationor any serious attempt to produce anything.
I am glad you finally see the value, that this will have to this site. Perhaps others will also.
It is not my place to do so, it is the very basics of engineering and science, for THOSE participating to record so that they may reproduce. Am I wrong?
Regards
Den
Quote from: PolyMatrix on February 01, 2008, 01:52:47 AM
Check the shadow of the main rotor in @Al's video. the rotor is not in the exact centre. You can compare the shadow distance with the static bits around the outside of the main rotor.
Edit. also looking at the shadow of the centre of the main rotor in the strobed video the same effect can be seen, however would perfer it if someone with better picture analysis would confirm this observation.
Hmm....
That is interesting. Can anyone else confirm or deny this?
Quote from: PolyMatrix on February 01, 2008, 01:52:47 AM
Check the shadow of the main rotor in @Al's video. the rotor is not in the exact centre. You can compare the shadow distance with the static bits around the outside of the main rotor.
Edit. also looking at the shadow of the centre of the main rotor in the strobed video the same effect can be seen, however would perfer it if someone with better picture analysis would confirm this observation.
How about vertical wobble (variation in hight)?
Fingers crossed guys and gals
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60180&page=2#Item_5
Quote
Turbinator wrote:
Without going into too much detail, I had a sustained rotor yesterday evening while fooling around around with the stators; The stators were not rotating but oscillating slightly (and with a rod mag attached to each stator - like i said i was tinkering!), the rotor was hand spooled and left to run down while i was doing something else..... strangely it held at around 300rpm. I will investigate further and keep a camera handy.
I suppose Turbo has just as much right to infer things as Al does .. <pours another green tea blend gets the yummy white honey out and reclines to watch the circus unfold>
Wow. I had tried something like that with my set about a week ago except that I used two small rod magnets attached to the stator so it looked like --O-- . I only did it to one stator. I did notice it pulsed the rotor and seems to improve slow down times but I could not get it to do anything else but to wind down at which point one or the other outer stator arms would stick to a rotor magnet. Guess I will have to go back and play with one arm setup..
Quote from: RunningBare on February 01, 2008, 08:23:27 AM
Fingers crossed guys and gals
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60180&page=2#Item_5
Quote
Turbinator wrote:
Without going into too much detail, I had a sustained rotor yesterday evening while fooling around around with the stators; The stators were not rotating but oscillating slightly (and with a rod mag attached to each stator - like i said i was tinkering!), the rotor was hand spooled and left to run down while i was doing something else..... strangely it held at around 300rpm. I will investigate further and keep a camera handy.
Quote from: RunningBare on February 01, 2008, 08:23:27 AM
Fingers crossed guys and gals
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60180&page=2#Item_5
Quote
Turbinator wrote:
Without going into too much detail, I had a sustained rotor yesterday evening while fooling around around with the stators; The stators were not rotating but oscillating slightly (and with a rod mag attached to each stator - like i said i was tinkering!), the rotor was hand spooled and left to run down while i was doing something else..... strangely it held at around 300rpm. I will investigate further and keep a camera handy.
RE: Similarity between turbinator's oscillation and the Lego device(?)
Not to clutter this thread up, but if the Lego device is to be believed, then its rubber bands might be contributing to a similar oscillation phenomenon as the spinning rotor mags pass by the fixed stator mags -- hunting/oscillating during passage due to the elasticity in the bands, but never really "locking in."
In any event, turbinator's device is starting to look like a Lego-WhipMag hybrid. ;D
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
Quote from: Spartane on January 31, 2008, 03:28:24 PM
One of the things that Sean mentioned on the Steorn site was the need for "poor quality" magnets.
...
So maybe Al used older crappy rotor magnets that he happened to had lying around, and the rest of you are using fresh, off-the-shelf magnets that have their magnetic domains so firmly locked into place, that they cannot be modulated by the spinning stator magnet.
Anyway, something to consider...
I think that is a very good point. If one is to generate energy one has to cut a chunk out of the BH loop in the opposite sense from the energy loss (refrigeration) direction. Maybe the change from GW to AGW marks that change in direction. Mmmm.......very interesting. I hadn't looked at it that way before but it's so obvious when you think about it. That is what the change in rotor direction is telling us. 8)
I will have to send my rotor to be milled down to 258g so I won?t do experiments till probably Tuesday. In the meantime I won?t stop discussing theory but not here. Please @Grimer, @Spartane and others who also want to discuss theory would you mind moving to the debate thread to avoid cluttering this thread devoted solely to the technical issues regarding the replication of @alsetalokin?s device.
Quote from: Grimer on February 01, 2008, 04:12:57 PM
Quote from: Spartane on January 31, 2008, 03:28:24 PM
One of the things that Sean mentioned on the Steorn site was the need for "poor quality" magnets.
...
So maybe Al used older crappy rotor magnets that he happened to had lying around, and the rest of you are using fresh, off-the-shelf magnets that have their magnetic domains so firmly locked into place, that they cannot be modulated by the spinning stator magnet.
Anyway, something to consider...
I think that is a very good point. If one is to generate energy one has to cut a chunk out of the BH loop in the opposite sense from the energy loss (refrigeration) direction. Maybe the change from GW to AGW marks that change in direction. Mmmm.......very interesting. I hadn't looked at it that way before but it's so obvious when you think about it. That is what the change in rotor direction is telling us. 8)
How about crappy supports -- ones that wobble enough to resonate like the Tacoma Narrows bridge [a.k.a Galloping Gertie].
It's possible the new and very "tight" replications are so different from Al's cobbled together original that some natural [and potentially catalytic] resonance (oscillation) has been lost.
Perhaps mounting the stators to someting less rigid -- like hard rubber -- would induce resonance. Perhaps the same is needed for the rotor. Studying the resonant frequency (300 rpm ==> 5 cps?) could be useful. The closest natural phenomenon that comes to mind is the Schumann resonance of 7.8 Hz (~468 rpm).
... Schumann resonance: http://147.175.143.11/schr-e/index.php
Time to loosen up? ???
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
@All,
Looks like Turbinator on the Steorn forum has achieved sustained rotation, in his last post he sort of implies that he is holding the stator magnets in his fingers which may not be good.
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60264&page=1#Item_5
I hope this works out and become the first independant running replica.
Couple of pages back someone mentioned ceramic bearings, these are available quite easily from r/c model places and ebay, they made from stainless steel, ceramic ball bearings and have a special low friction lubricant.
They last a lot longer, are not effected by magnets, so a good choice I think.
Here is a lightweight bearing I found 5x8x2.5mm:
http://www.modeltech.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=102&products_id=478&PHPSESSID=05c675e5dd4ad987c71085cfa21e8733
There seems to be a lot of discusion about critical rotor weight, I would concentrate more on the stator friction if I were you.
You could always mill out a circular slot in the disk if you want to be spot on but I think time would be better spent looking at the major point of friction, that being the stator bearing - it spins faster, has very little inertia and I have seen from my own tests that ball bearing lockup from the stator magnet is a major problem.
I think we are good to go now...
regards
Rob
@MeggerMan,
Did you read one of my latest posts? There I explained that I replaced the bearing with a brand new one. As a result I couldn't latch it in AGW no matter how much I tried. Then I applied penetrating lubricating oil to it, as I've done with the older ones, and locking it in AGW became again straightforward and easy. The importance of this penetrating lubricant cannot be overestimated. Achieving a steady AGW latch isn't a problem at all, this is what my experiments show. The main problems seem to again revolve around the proper rotor weight and the proper rotor and stator magnetic induction profiles. Until we get them adjusted as they are in the original success is hardly likely, I think. I'm curious what's your rotor's weight?
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 01, 2008, 04:30:58 PM
Perhaps mounting the stators to someting less rigid --
Time to loosen up? ???
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
I concur, alsetalokin had specified that his stator bearings were not rigid and that they rattled slightly, a couple of theories have been put forward such as the effect on angular momentum and the stator bearings binding at just the right moment on each cycle.
Omni,
I have not ordered the 18mm HDPE sheet yet, got all the magnets, I have some important work to get out of the way before I can play.
I'm gradually building a shopping list of materials I need to complete this project and other peoples successes and failures are helping a little. Things are looking promising though with the news from Tubinator and the lego motor, although I not so convinced about the lego motor.
Regards
Rob
@MeggerMan,
The Lego motor is the really interesting one because it's a self-starter. The motor we're drying to replicate is based on the same idea as the Lego and other motors but seems simpler to get it to work (seems that fewer parameters are at play to adjust). As for @Turbinator, it's really interesting to see what he's observed but recall early on I also observed something similar (shorter than @Turbinator's several minutes but stators were not held by hand). @CLaNZeR also observed a similar effect and even showed evidence of it. Our goal, however, is to see sustained acceleration for longer periods and I've focused my attention on replicating the motor in the video exactly (the one I reported encouraging results with differs in that its rotor magnets are rectangular, for instance). Now, as I've said a number of times, aside from the exact mases of the rotor and stators (I think stator mass of 10g is achieved) I'd really like to see @alsetalokin show us the magnetic induction of the rotor as well as of the stators as a function of their angle of rotation. Thus, once we have adjusted the masses properly and the magnetic induction profiles the likelihood of success would increase, wouldn't it?
Does anyone else think that the Lego motor video is being played backward?
Quote from: Lakes on February 01, 2008, 08:11:55 PM
Does anyone else think that the Lego motor video is being played backward?
yeah... now that you mention it... I think that it's saying "The Walrus is Al"
Quote from: geodan on February 01, 2008, 08:16:20 PM
Quote from: Lakes on February 01, 2008, 08:11:55 PM
Does anyone else think that the Lego motor video is being played backward?
yeah... now that you mention it... I think that it's saying "The Walrus is Al"
ROFLMAO!
Hello All,
I have purchased this evening a micrometer, to be ready when my newest rotor arrives. Hank picked up his, Jason's and mine today and mailed them off. He weighed them before he did. Weight without any magnets or bearing:
258 grams.
BUT... If I am not mistaken, Al's was weighed with the rotor magnets at 258 grams, or without?
Also, if someone good with photographs, can zoom and give us the bearing number or have Al give us the bearing number, that would be very helpful. Please email me the cleared and zoomed photo and I can show it to my bearing company here in town and see if he can match it up just by the looks of the underside. These guys know their bearings! ;) (All pun intended.)
I will test with the N35's and N42's, while I order the same N38's as Omnibus.
Cheers all,
Bruce
Forum Snafu. :-\
@Bruce_TPU,
Yesterday I was reading somewhere in @CLaNZeR's forum a citation from @alsetalokin stating that the 258g of the rotor refer to the HDPE part plus the magnets plus the shaft holder without the weight of the shaft. Unfortunately, I can't find that quote now. The weight of the rotor may be one of the crucial parameters so we must be very sure it's the right one.
My rotor being 303g with the magnets and the bearings is 45g too heavy compared to the original. About 31g out of these extra 45g is due to the fact that the diameter of my rotor is 147mm while the thickness is 20mm (and not the required 144mm and 18mm). The remaining extra 14g can be removed the way @alsetalokin has done by lathing out a groove on the bottom side of rotor. I am going to send my rotor back to the machine shop for these seemingly cosmetic but maybe very important adjustment but it'd be very good if we can hear straight from the horse's mouth first.
Also, no matter what trimming we may do we must be sure that the distance, radially, between the outer surface of rotor and outer surface of stators is exactly 5mm. Recall that @alsetalokin was emphasizing that quite a bit.
Quote from: RunningBare on February 01, 2008, 08:23:27 AM
Fingers crossed guys and gals
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60180&page=2#Item_5
Quote
Turbinator wrote:
Without going into too much detail, I had a sustained rotor yesterday evening while fooling around around with the stators; The stators were not rotating but oscillating slightly (and with a rod mag attached to each stator - like i said i was tinkering!), the rotor was hand spooled and left to run down while i was doing something else..... strangely it held at around 300rpm. I will investigate further and keep a camera handy.
I tried the above experiment tonight with my wrong sized rotor. 9 mm distance from stator to rotor edge. Rotor 3/8" shorter than Jason's Cad drawing.
Did the above test. About 5 hours worth. I am waiting for a tach to arrive to confirm. I saw and heard the rotor accelerate almost every time. Sometimes for about 2 seconds, sometimes longer. Different configs gave me different results. Sometimes very long steady runs but no acceleration and sometimes accelerations. The first time it happened, I yelled. It scared me and I scared the wife! LOL It sounds like a little turbine. The mags shake first, and it feels like a pulse in the fingers holding the stators. And then you hear the reving sound for a couple of seconds and then it drops out.
Some runs caught two and three accelerations, at different RPM's, but that does not always happen, just random.
The rotor LOVE'S to see North and south looking at it at the same time. I had some wild configurations. And had Jason on the phone for hours. Rotor Magnets are N35's. Stator mags per spec. Cylinder mags on top of stators are N42's.
Experiment with what you have. Make sure your rotor mags are weaker. Hold the stator between the dampers and the one on the left. You can try all three once you get the hang of it. Spin the rotor clockwise very fast and off you go. You will know when "it" catches (what ever it is!) ;D
Cylinder mags on Stator can face any way, as long as North or South are looking directly to the center rotor.
Have fun. I did. I will post a video when I find a friend with a vid camera, so be patient please. Nothing self sustained, though I did get some mighty long runs.
All of you naysayers are doomed! LOL
Cheers all,
Bruce
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 02, 2008, 05:05:34 AM
Quote from: RunningBare on February 01, 2008, 08:23:27 AM
Fingers crossed guys and gals
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60180&page=2#Item_5
Quote
Turbinator wrote:
Without going into too much detail, I had a sustained rotor yesterday evening while fooling around around with the stators; The stators were not rotating but oscillating slightly (and with a rod mag attached to each stator - like i said i was tinkering!), the rotor was hand spooled and left to run down while i was doing something else..... strangely it held at around 300rpm. I will investigate further and keep a camera handy.
I tried the above experiment tonight with my wrong sized rotor. 9 mm distance from stator to rotor edge. Rotor 3/8" shorter than Jason's Cad drawing.
Did the above test. About 5 hours worth. I am waiting for a tach to arrive to confirm. I saw and heard the rotor accelerate almost every time. Sometimes for about 2 seconds, sometimes longer. Different configs gave me different results. Sometimes very long steady runs but no acceleration and sometimes accelerations. The first time it happened, I yelled. It scared me and I scared the wife! LOL It sounds like a little turbine. The mags shake first, and it feels like a pulse in the fingers holding the stators. And then you hear the reving sound for a couple of seconds and then it drops out.
Some runs caught two and three accelerations, at different RPM's, but that does not always happen, just random.
The rotor LOVE'S to see North and south looking at it at the same time. I had some wild configurations. And had Jason on the phone for hours. Rotor Magnets are N35's. Stator mags per spec. Cylinder mags on top of stators are N42's.
Experiment with what you have. Make sure your rotor mags are weaker. Hold the stator between the dampers and the one on the left. You can try all three once you get the hang of it. Spin the rotor clockwise very fast and off you go. You will know when "it" catches (what ever it is!) ;D
Cylinder mags on Stator can face any way, as long as North or South are looking directly to the center rotor.
Have fun. I did. I will post a video when I find a friend with a vid camera, so be patient please. Nothing self sustained, though I did get some mighty long runs.
All of you naysayers are doomed! LOL
Cheers all,
Bruce
Bruce,
Mega KUDOS! ::)
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 02, 2008, 05:05:34 AM
... Make sure your rotor mags are weaker.
I think that is an important point. In effect the Stator magnets are the H field and the Rotor magnets the B field. AGW is an indication that there is a B power loop being generated from environmental H field.
And congratulations. You are right to be confident.
@ Bruce
Sounds like your having a blast..... Kewl
I took the sacrificial Rotor why down in mass (247.4 Grams loaded). Think I went to much, so going to work up another one later today and try to hold the Mass to 258 Grams loaded.
Keep having fun and I hope U have a run away ;D
Regards
Bill :P
@Bruce_TPU
Excellent! Keep us posted and dying to see the video. I agree it should be the rotor magnets that are weaker so they have some movement on the BH plot. I and some other simulators are seeing KE gain with this BH alone AND moving AGW stator. BH + static stator gives no gain. Lag doesn't seem important - it's all about the BH movement: ideally linear and in first quadrant.
Nice one Bruce.
I think it is obvious to people building the rigs that there is indeed a weird effect going on here and also that people that have built their Rigs as close as they can to AL's original are not finding instant sucess.
So as Bruce has shown it is defo worth playing with different configs as you will learn and get a feel for the AGW latch and how it works.
Must admit I had more success using those cheap Stator Magnets and if I get time may drag that Rig back out and have a play.
For now I am working away during the week again and very limited time at the weekend to play, but my main concern to me at the moment is the 1/2 bearings I am using are way too tight and it is a struggle to get the AGW compared to when I was using the really loose 3mm RC bearings.
A couple of guys over at my forums are using 1/2 bearings from Fishing reels, so today I am going to try and get some from a fishing shop.
Still want to get the Wind Down times done with the new Dampners but feel I will be wasting my time if the bearings are crap.
Good stuff guys and well done.
I am now confused on the Sizes and have been trying to get a definate spec that people are now working with as this seems to have changed over the last week since I have been away.
Hopefully I will get some new stuff up over the weekend.
Cheers
Sean.
@Bruce_TPU,
If you remember I reported something similar couple a weeks ago with another rig which isn?t here with me now. That rig isn?t according to specifications as well, most notably the rotor magnets being N42 rectangular magnets. Now I did the experiment you?re describing (N35 rotor mags, stator rings as specified with three cylinder N42?s on top). What I?m seeing is that when you spin it at around 350rpm and let it wind down, you can definitely hear change in sound and feel increased vibration in the rotors you're holding between around 330-320rpm which lasts for less than a second. This phenomenon repeats itself, although not as pronounced, at about 240rpm.
My setup differs from yours in that my rotor is heavier than yours (mine is 303g) and I still don?t have dampers.
As previously, I still won?t post video of this because what needs to be done is to reproduce the acceleration we see in @alsetalokin?s video which I still haven?t observed.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 02, 2008, 05:05:34 AM
All of you naysayers are doomed! LOL
Cheers all,
Bruce
A little premature .. but i love the enthusiasm :D
Quote from: Omnibus on February 02, 2008, 09:12:13 AM
@Bruce_TPU,
If you remember I reported something similar couple a weeks ago with another rig which isn?t here with me now. That rig isn?t according to specifications as well, most notably the rotor magnets being N42 rectangular magnets. Now I did the experiment you?re describing (N35 rotor mags, stator rings as specified with three cylinder N42?s on top). What I?m seeing is that when you spin it at around 350rpm and let it wind down, you can definitely hear change in sound and feel increased vibration in the rotors you're holding between around 330-320rpm which lasts for less than a second. This phenomenon repeats itself, although not as pronounced, at about 240rpm.
My setup differs from yours in that my rotor is heavier than yours (mine is 303g) and I still don?t have dampers.
As previously, I still won?t post video of this because what needs to be done is to reproduce the acceleration we see in @alsetalokin?s video which I still haven?t observed.
@ Omni,
So, umm .... where is that other "rig" ?
If you don't mind me enquiring ... I mean ..could it be at someone's house who might have a web cam?
Cheers Dean
Another difference between mine and Bruce's is that my rotor-stator gap is 5mm (as specified), not 8mm as in his.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 02, 2008, 09:27:19 AM
Another difference between mine and Bruce's is that my rotor-stator gap is 5mm (as specified), not 8mm as in his.
I think there is one similarity though .. you both have your hand on it ;D
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 02, 2008, 09:20:15 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 02, 2008, 09:12:13 AM
@Bruce_TPU,
If you remember I reported something similar couple a weeks ago with another rig which isn?t here with me now. That rig isn?t according to specifications as well, most notably the rotor magnets being N42 rectangular magnets. Now I did the experiment you?re describing (N35 rotor mags, stator rings as specified with three cylinder N42?s on top). What I?m seeing is that when you spin it at around 350rpm and let it wind down, you can definitely hear change in sound and feel increased vibration in the rotors you're holding between around 330-320rpm which lasts for less than a second. This phenomenon repeats itself, although not as pronounced, at about 240rpm.
My setup differs from yours in that my rotor is heavier than yours (mine is 303g) and I still don?t have dampers.
As previously, I still won?t post video of this because what needs to be done is to reproduce the acceleration we see in @alsetalokin?s video which I still haven?t observed.
@ Omni,
So, umm .... where is that other "rig" ?
If you don't mind me enquiring ... I mean ..could it be at someone's house who might have a web cam?
Cheers Dean
It's in Massachusetts, in the machine shop there while I'm in NYC right now. As for web cam, the only thing that can be done is to make a video when I get there, I don't know when. Like I said, however, it isn't worth posting a video until it can be made self-sustaining for longer periods, minutes, hours, as was claimed by @alsetalokin. What I'm trying to do now is to get this rig I have with me now as close to specifications as possible and then go from there. The biggest problem I have now is the rotor weight which I'll try to take care of in the coming days.
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 02, 2008, 09:30:39 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 02, 2008, 09:27:19 AM
Another difference between mine and Bruce's is that my rotor-stator gap is 5mm (as specified), not 8mm as in his.
I think there is one similarity though .. you both have your hand on it ;D
Not necessarily. The one I reported earlier didn't have my hand on it.
Also, in this case, why having my hand on it, I don't observe the phenomenon at 350rpm but it emerges at 320-330rpm? The hand has nothing to do with that.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 02, 2008, 09:36:43 AM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 02, 2008, 09:30:39 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 02, 2008, 09:27:19 AM
Another difference between mine and Bruce's is that my rotor-stator gap is 5mm (as specified), not 8mm as in his.
I think there is one similarity though .. you both have your hand on it ;D
Not necessarily. The one I reported earlier didn't have my hand on it.
Also, in this case, why having my hand on it, I don't observe the phenomenon at 350rpm but it emerges at 320-330rpm? The hand has nothing to do with that.
Pearls before swine :(
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 02, 2008, 09:38:36 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 02, 2008, 09:36:43 AM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 02, 2008, 09:30:39 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 02, 2008, 09:27:19 AM
Another difference between mine and Bruce's is that my rotor-stator gap is 5mm (as specified), not 8mm as in his.
I think there is one similarity though .. you both have your hand on it ;D
Not necessarily. The one I reported earlier didn't have my hand on it.
Also, in this case, why having my hand on it, I don't observe the phenomenon at 350rpm but it emerges at 320-330rpm? The hand has nothing to do with that.
Pearls before swine :(
Here's the soundtrack of it. Spin starts at around 370rpm. Effect heard around 220-230rpm and then again at around 240rpm and much lighter at around 190rpm. The rotor is let go winding down on its own with no involvement of hands.
EDIT: Please bear with me. Can't post the soundtrack here, will try to give a link to another place I'll try to upload it to.
Here's the soundtrack, converted to mp3.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 02, 2008, 10:25:07 AM
Here's the soundtrack, converted to mp3.
Wow. That's the most convincing bit of 'evidence' for me, so far, that you guys really are onto something. Keep it up, and good luck.
Les.
@mramos,
None running...and even if they did they would then face the degaussing issue. However I think what they have all missed is if they call it a smot device is should run...just ask omi.
I witnessed a self starting magnetic motor last year...which could easily run for 10 minutes...appeared to accerate when the stator arm was brought in over the rotor. Had me fooled for 20 minutes. However it eventually slowed down. (You guys would have wet yourself if it was posted on youtube).
As an exercise, can anyone tell me why it might have appeared as a self starter...when indeed it wasnt?
The clues are in the words above.
Mark
Good Morning All,
A long night! ;)
My Tachometer will be here Wednesday. I need to confirm what the ear and eyes think they are seeing. New Rotor was Shipped yesterday. Base is interchangeable for both.
My Stator / rotor separation is 9 mm.
I am about to order the N38's that Omni has, with the 30.5 mm separation, for the rotor.
Also, Monday, I am going to purchase new ABEC 7 rotor bearings for both rotors. I replaced my stator bearings, but need to replace the rotor bearings. Time for precision.
Thanks for the Kudo's guys, but let's hold the champaign, until we replicate Al's. But I can say it is one of the coolest things I have ever witnessed! ;D
Cheers All,
Bruce
Quote from: markdansie on February 02, 2008, 12:27:25 PM
@mramos,
None running...and even if they did they would then face the degaussing issue. However I think what they have all missed is if they call it a smot device is should run...just ask omi.
I witnessed a self starting magnetic motor last year...which could easily run for 10 minutes...appeared to accerate when the stator arm was brought in over the rotor. Had me fooled for 20 minutes. However it eventually slowed down. (You guys would have wet yourself if it was posted on youtube).
As an exercise, can anyone tell me why it might have appeared as a self starter...when indeed it wasnt?
The clues are in the words above.
Mark
As the stator arm was moved energy was added to the system ... ;)
Another "hand on it" effort
Cheers
Dean
edited...
single slit diffraction posting method damn doubled up me postin' ... grrr
Cheers
Dean
Quote from: markdansie on February 02, 2008, 12:27:25 PM
@mramos,
None running...and even if they did they would then face the degaussing issue. However I think what they have all missed is if they call it a smot device is should run...just ask omi.
I witnessed a self starting magnetic motor last year...which could easily run for 10 minutes...appeared to accerate when the stator arm was brought in over the rotor. Had me fooled for 20 minutes. However it eventually slowed down. (You guys would have wet yourself if it was posted on youtube).
As an exercise, can anyone tell me why it might have appeared as a self starter...when indeed it wasnt?
The clues are in the words above.
Mark
Don't worry about degaussing. Show me a motor that accelerates by itself (even if not self-starter) and keeps going for 7.5hours without external energy input, as @alsetalokin claims, and then come argue with me.
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 02, 2008, 12:38:36 PM
Quote from: markdansie on February 02, 2008, 12:27:25 PM
@mramos,
None running...and even if they did they would then face the degaussing issue. However I think what they have all missed is if they call it a smot device is should run...just ask omi.
I witnessed a self starting magnetic motor last year...which could easily run for 10 minutes...appeared to accerate when the stator arm was brought in over the rotor. Had me fooled for 20 minutes. However it eventually slowed down. (You guys would have wet yourself if it was posted on youtube).
As an exercise, can anyone tell me why it might have appeared as a self starter...when indeed it wasnt?
The clues are in the words above.
Mark
As the stator arm was moved energy was added to the system ... ;)
Another "hand on it" effort
Cheers
Dean
Don't worry about telltale motors. Focus on what's being done here. No "hand on it" effect in this case.
@Omni,
You are being very controversial again.
To my knowledge i have seen not one shred of evidence that there is any noteworthy effect or acceleration. Only claims of with >0< supporting evidence. I believe there is more evidence of UFO's than of the alsetalokin effect.
Cheers,
Dean
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 02, 2008, 12:48:57 PM
@Omni,
You are being very controversial again.
To my knowledge i have seen not one shred of evidence that there is any noteworthy effect or acceleration. Only claims of with >0< supporting evidence. I believe there is more evidence of UFO's than of the alsetalokin effect.
Cheers,
Dean
Impatience is a sign of mediocrity. Besides, even at this moment sudden outbursts of energy aren't trivial at all.
I have all the time in the world, just stating the facts jack :D
edited .. don't you mean undocumented, unqualified "sudden outbursts"...?
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 02, 2008, 12:53:48 PM
I have all the time in the world, just stating the facts jack :D
The only fact worth noting in connection with your out of place comment is that you are impatient. And, like I said, impatience is a sign of mediocrity.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 02, 2008, 12:55:44 PM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 02, 2008, 12:53:48 PM
I have all the time in the world, just stating the facts jack :D
The only fact worth noting in connection with your out of place comment is that you are impatient. And, like I said, impatience is a sign of mediocrity.
:-*
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 02, 2008, 12:58:52 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 02, 2008, 12:55:44 PM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 02, 2008, 12:53:48 PM
I have all the time in the world, just stating the facts jack :D
The only fact worth noting in connection with your out of place comment is that you are impatient. And, like I said, impatience is a sign of mediocrity.
:-*
This is a blatant attempt to distract people from their goals. Looks like you found the wrong thread.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 02, 2008, 10:01:16 AM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 02, 2008, 09:38:36 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 02, 2008, 09:36:43 AM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 02, 2008, 09:30:39 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 02, 2008, 09:27:19 AM
Another difference between mine and Bruce's is that my rotor-stator gap is 5mm (as specified), not 8mm as in his.
I think there is one similarity though .. you both have your hand on it ;D
Not necessarily. The one I reported earlier didn't have my hand on it.
Also, in this case, why having my hand on it, I don't observe the phenomenon at 350rpm but it emerges at 320-330rpm? The hand has nothing to do with that.
Pearls before swine :(
Here's the soundtrack of it. Spin starts at around 370rpm. Effect heard around 220-230rpm and then again at around 240rpm and much lighter at around 190rpm. The rotor is let go winding down on its own with no involvement of hands.
EDIT: Please bear with me. Can't post the soundtrack here, will try to give a link to another place I'll try to upload it to.
@ Omni
I'm still considering Shumann resonance, and related hamonics (7.8, 14.3, 20.8 ... every 6.5 Hz).
If you want to study the sound using a
spectrum analyzer (FFT, Scope, etc), here's some free-trial software that works pretty well.
... DSSF Realtime Analyzer http://www.sharewareplaza.com/DSSF3-Light-downloads_35724.html
FYI: Your previous audio spiked at 63 Hz and 2 kHz. :)
If you are serious about this, consider a good transducer ... not a camera mic. Audio cards have limited frequency response as well, thus, a good card is necessary when routing the sound [e.g. wav file] to the analyzer.
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
Quote from: g4macdad on February 02, 2008, 04:55:17 PM
This is a blatant attempt to distract people from their goals. Looks like you found the wrong thread.
Do you mean the goal being replication of a guestimation of an assumption about a youtube video lark ?
I would prefer to bring peoples attention back to the lack of detail rather than them keep superimposing their
own postulates all over it ?
Truly
Dean
@Omnibus
I would like to suggest that instead of responding to 'taunts' in this thread that you send a PM to the person you want to respond to and tell them to take it to the debate thread.
There should be one and only one response to 'when', 'proof' and 'evidence' posts and that is "please remove this comment and put it in the debate thread".
@PolyMatrix,
I don't know how this should be handled. I really don't. Certain 'taunts' must be answered, though. Otherwise we'll be left at the mercy of people with agendas remote from scientific exploration, let alone those silly enough to expose their uselessness at any opportunity.
@All
Net etiquette while not a law is something that all Internet users are asked to follow.
Fundamentally please read what the thread is about before posting so that they don?t get cluttered up and annoy the other members
This is an 'overunity' forum if you want to argue about it 'Take it to the debate thread'
@all,
how about look at yardaf, and respond! whatever frequencies he has going on, seem to be going on. looks like one wave pushing another, if you know what i mean? if not, why not, just leave it alone? have you got something to prove? show me!!!!
lol
sam
sorry wro0ng quote
@mramos and @superasm,
Go away. You were told you are parasites in this site having neither the expertise to deserve answers nor the the knowledge how scientific research is conducted. You are useless here. Go away.
never mind
damnit!!! start another thread!!!!!!! just take it outside!!!!! do you guys not know how to pm each other? and you are supposed to believe your scientists? RIGHT???
lol
sam
PS: PUSSWHIPS LEAVE IT THE DOOR!
@ALL,
MEANWHILE BACK AT THE RANCH, YADARIF, POSTED SOME VERY MEANINFUL FACTS!!!!!!!!! I SUGGEST EVERYONE BACKUP AND LOOK AT THEM. certain wavelengths have a tendancy to add to others. you might want to take a look at the ones yadarif found while you were all in a teasey about science!
lol
sam
Well, there goes the neighborhood, thank goodness for FizzX.com and overunity.org
Well, this motor MUST have possibilities....
The trolls have invaded with the intent of disruption.
And a fine job they are doing IMO.
@runningbare,
RIGHT! THEY ARE DREAMING TO BE WHAT THIS SITE IS!
LOL
sam
ps: take it to the debate site, or pm me for any responses, none are guarateed from these, but i will assure you none will be replied to from here!!!!!
This forum is one of the best for the purposes of discussing OU, in any event much better than Steorn let alone Fizzx forums. That's why the trolls are descending on it with the intent to destroy it. It won't pass, however.
@yadrif, omni, and all,
please may we all have a pleasant discution of the facts? yadrif has brought forth some very important facts about how waves intereact. i think you can all agree with having ever been in the oceon. the first time i attempted surfing i failed misserably. as i gradually began to realise the importance of feeling the ocean currents of ,waves building, i realized, what that meant. power was not just there, but it started to build, crescendoed, and started to ebb. only to build again. that is just the waves work. whether, we want them to work on 50 or 60 Hz per second or not. natural energy waves work at different frequencies all the time, when you are looking at big energies. i am not saying that the observed energies of quartz or the observed vibrations of an iorn atom are wrong. however the way we translate these into big energies, may be.
if we take a look at the works of TESLA, i think we can all understand the diffierence of small energy, and , big energy.
the thing we are looking at here has to do with magnetics, why? a childs game? i think not. if we are able to figure out the "sticky part" of the childs game, then we figure the difference between the small and the very large difference in "POWER"!!!!!!
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 02, 2008, 05:05:34 AM
Quote from: RunningBare on February 01, 2008, 08:23:27 AM
Fingers crossed guys and gals
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60180&page=2#Item_5
Quote
Turbinator wrote:
Without going into too much detail, I had a sustained rotor yesterday evening while fooling around around with the stators; The stators were not rotating but oscillating slightly (and with a rod mag attached to each stator - like i said i was tinkering!), the rotor was hand spooled and left to run down while i was doing something else..... strangely it held at around 300rpm. I will investigate further and keep a camera handy.
I tried the above experiment tonight with my wrong sized rotor. 9 mm distance from stator to rotor edge. Rotor 3/8" shorter than Jason's Cad drawing.
Did the above test. About 5 hours worth. I am waiting for a tach to arrive to confirm. I saw and heard the rotor accelerate almost every time. Sometimes for about 2 seconds, sometimes longer. Different configs gave me different results. Sometimes very long steady runs but no acceleration and sometimes accelerations.
[...]
Bruce
Congrats Bruce!
I'll be featuring this in my news tomorrow:
- Bruce TPU Replicates Turbinator's Effect (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:Bruce_TPU) - Placing a loose rotor magnet on top of the round stator magnet, Bruce_TPU said he was able to repeatedly achieve acceleration for about two seconds, and sometimes sustained rotation. (PESWiki; Feb. 2)
- http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:Bruce_TPU (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:Bruce_TPU)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freeenergynews.com%2FDirectory%2FMagneticMotors%2FOC_MPMM%2FBruce_TPM_MPMM_replica_95x95.jpg&hash=794b35f0826e69229c032980833751008c794a51)
This is one of the few places in the world where the statement "May you have runaway, with magnets flying all over the room" is actually a warm fuzzy statement that people wouldn't mind have happen to them.
@All,
Now, before I send the rotor I'm experimenting with to the machine shop to have the extra 45g taken off I thought I might give you some more soundtracks to munch on. All of these start at around 400rpm. Also, I should say that I'm spinning the rotor at the initial rpm the way @alsetalokin does it in the video and, get this, with the N45's on top of stators it's easier to spin it to the desired rpm than without the N45's. So, what do we hear here--less energy causes longer winding down of the rotor when N45's are present plus some funny screeching noises heard at three places, not present in absence of N45.
Quote from: markdansie on February 02, 2008, 12:27:25 PM
@mramos,
None running...and even if they did they would then face the degaussing issue. However I think what they have all missed is if they call it a smot device is should run...just ask omi.
I witnessed a self starting magnetic motor last year...which could easily run for 10 minutes...appeared to accerate when the stator arm was brought in over the rotor. Had me fooled for 20 minutes. However it eventually slowed down. (You guys would have wet yourself if it was posted on youtube).
As an exercise, can anyone tell me why it might have appeared as a self starter...when indeed it wasnt?
The clues are in the words above.
Mark
@Mark,
I think what you are implying is that the 10 minutes of running in the situation you are describing was due to the bringing of the stator magnet into position, serving to sort of spring-load the device, which then eventually dissapated.
However, Al reports to have run his motor for 7 hours continues, at which point he shut it off so he could go to bed. Also, in Al's situation, the stator magnets are already in place, and once they get in sync with the rotor, they cause the aparatus to ACCELERATE.
At least five people have replicated Al's effect to some degree:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications)
For these reasons, I don't think your skepticism from your other experience can be tranferred here.
Furthermore, it may be reason to have hope that your other scenario may be legit after all -- just very early in R&D, with a lot of characterizing and engineering before it will be of practical value. If I recall correctly, that set-up was quite similar to OC / Al's
Sterling
Quote from: mramos on February 02, 2008, 05:14:55 PM
[...]
Is there a video? [...] Any proof?? At all??
CLaNZeR's video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZPI5BwccsA shows ~ two seconds of acceleration. http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:CLaNZeR
Of course, the goal is self-sustaining run after acceleration without external energy input as seen in @alsetalokin?s video. Achieving this obviously requires tuning up of the device?a device which, as seen, isn?t foreign to exhibiting peculiar behavior. If you don?t tune up your violin the audience may not like what they hear from you (unless it?s avant-garde music but that?s another score). Even the most common internal combustion engines need tune up to work. Therefore, one cannot ignore the parameters that make our device work and one very important such parameter is the weight of the rotor. Another very important parameter is the magnetic induction profile of the rotor and stator magnets. First things first, however. I?ll take care, as I said, first of the rotor weight and hopefully will have it down from the current 303g to the specified 258g by Tuesday. Hopefully by then we?ll hear from @alsetalokin with some further specifics regarding his working device. One important thing to ask him is whether or not he still can reproduce the effect shown in his first video.
Quote from: mramos on February 02, 2008, 11:10:26 PM
All,
Not being a pain, just plain logic at this point as none of us have made anything near over-unity yet. Or I missed the thread.
Sam,
If the wavelengths add (yadrif), what does it add? Power/Current? What is your point as you have posted this a few times now? Please tell us what we are missing? You need to put in an E and get a bigger E out.
If I put 1vac into a 1:10 transformer, I get 10 vac out. I did not get 10 times more power out? I lost a lot of current to make 10 volts AC.
Sterling,
So "Bruce said" and you feature him? Do you check these claims out first or just feature them (and yes I do read your website everyday)?
If you check them out, normally the ones that run a bit need a helping hand to start them off. More power "to start them" than they offer when they stop running.
mramos, please chill out.
I made a statement of what I saw and heard. Not a "Claim" of anything. I only posted it after Jason talked me into it, to encourage some of the others to "play" with theirs or attempt a replication.
Omnibus is a real professor and what field is not important. He has his own way of looking at things just as you have your own way.
Normally you are much more useful in your comments. So please assist the replication effort, or patiently lurk watching those of us investing hundreds of dollars on this replication attempt to take baby steps towards replicating and then understanding why Al's rig works. (and hopefully soon, ours)
@ All
Tonight I purchased a webcam and will attempt to put together a video tomorrow with sound to post to youtube. I live in a very rural area with only dial up. It makes life tough. But I will have a video soon, so be patient, or build your own. ;) My Tach will not be in until Wed. Then I can look at the numbers.
I am wanting to replicate Al's rig. What I have seen and heard with this set up, is a "taunt" of a couple of seconds, what there is with Al's rig. IMHO
So please be respectful to one another or take it to the debate thread. This is simply a common courtesy being asked. (no wonder Al stopped posting. Jeesh....)
Cheers,
Bruce
.
@All
:-[ I didn't mean to open a hornet's nest by discussing Schumann Resonances, but because they are electromagnetic resonances and the WhipMag is a magnetic device [that resonates], I was simply positing a hypothesis. Wikipedia -- believe it or not -- has a very good presentation on this subject. Note that Tesla (friend to Alsetalokin ;D) was a pioneer in this field in 1905.
As for analyzing Omni's soundtrack, it's one thing to report a "noise" and it's another to quantify and document that noise. I was simply trying to assist Omni and others in the pursuit of a common ground for discussing this phenomenon. I've been using signal analysis tools since the 80's -- mostly to study man-made acoustic signals, but also image spectra.
I'm reposting the analysis below, only to clarify that the peaks at 63 Hz and 2 kHz correspond to the noise(s) that Omni "heard" when his device spun down to 230 rpm -- around 18 seconds into the soundtrack. The timestamp of 00:15:54 is an artifact of the screen capture. That's all. Infer what you will.
I was drawn to this thread because the title was very general: "Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??" It's a very general title that implies "WTF?", which for better or worse will attract all kinds of replies. Agreed ... my replies are "out there," but so is the answer to the question "Why does it spin?" Again for better or worse, you're stuck with me until I see an answer. :D
Keep up the very excellent work. I envy you who have devices.
Cheers,
Yada..
.
@Sterling,
There is still nothing more than a claim by an anonymous poster that he has a device that supposedly ran for 7 hours.
NO PROOF .. nothing .. ZIP NADA NULL !!
BTW if you read the thread where he claims this you will see that he states he has no intention of leaving it run unattended then almost immediately proceeds to leave it run overnight UNATTENDED !! HELOOOOOO !!
I want to believe this is possible but some people are using blind faith and thats sad.
Cheers,
Dean
I have registered for one purpose and one purpose only. I just can't *stand* it anymore and I have to say something.
People's names get an @ sign in front of them if you are speaking "at" them. You don't need to put an @ sign in front of everyone's name, every single time. You use it when you are addressing someone directly, or responding to a comment they made. You don't use it when you are talking *about* them.
Example:
1) @Omnibus: could you please stop using unneeded @ signs?
2) I really hope Alsetalokin's motor turns out to be the next big thing.
See the magic there? I referred to Alsetalokin, but I didn't need to put an @ sign in front of his name, because I was talking about him in passing, not speaking directly to him.
I'm sorry to draw attention to this but with such erudite discussion going on, this simple little detail is driving me crazy.
@baobab68,
Welcome @board :D
Cheers,
Dean
@@@@rgh!!!!
@ Sterling,
I really think you should consider adding Omnibus's claim of replication to your site. He can be famous too
and you can plug your site here one more time :S
Cheers,
Dean
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 03, 2008, 01:53:58 AM
@ Sterling,
I really think you should consider adding Omnibus's claim of replication to your site.
Dean
Here you go: http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:omnibus (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:omnibus)
It's been there since Jan. 16. He's one of the first who appeart to have had some degree of success.
Sterling
@Sterling,
Walked right into that one didn't I ... Touche ;)
Cheers,
Dean
Hi Dean
"BTW if you read the thread where he claims this you will see that he states he has no intention of leaving it run unattended then almost immediately proceeds to leave it run overnight UNATTENDED !! HELOOOOOO !!"
But you left out the part about after 7+ hours he shut the device down and went to bed.
What insight would be gained by an unattended failure of the device beyond an obvious mechanical failure?
AL provided us with information about his findings. He has asked for nothing in return.
This information was presented for us to accept or reject, Do you have any evidence beyond supposition proving subterfuge or deceit you would like to present?
Many here have seen value in AL's information and have spent time and treasure, and validated some of his information to be of value.
There are believers and sceptics in science, both have their place as they should. But no one knows for sure until the papers are published.
Tinker
@ Yadaraf
Thanks for posting; would it be a good idea to put Al's original Youtube sound track alongside it for comparison?
Just speculating on waveforms and the soliton http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soliton came to mind but can't figure how you could get that effect with magnetic waves. Still fairly certain that its to do with the elements of magnetic power, turning moment of inertia, so weight and radius are important, and a small vibration element in both or one of the rotor and/or stator.
The idea of a magnetic soliton would make the physicists and mathematicians very happy ;D
As anybody who has played with magnets knows a stronger magnet when it gets close enough to a weaker magnet is attracted to it like it was steel.
Not sure if the mathematical model of magnets includes that datum.
Quote from: Tinker on February 03, 2008, 03:07:21 AM
Hi Dean
"BTW if you read the thread where he claims this you will see that he states he has no intention of leaving it run unattended then almost immediately proceeds to leave it run overnight UNATTENDED !! HELOOOOOO !!"
But you left out the part about after 7+ hours he shut the device down and went to bed.
What insight would be gained by an unattended failure of the device beyond an obvious mechanical failure?
AL provided us with information about his findings. He has asked for nothing in return.
This information was presented for us to accept or reject, Do you have any evidence beyond supposition proving subterfuge or deceit you would like to present?
Many here have seen value in AL's information and have spent time and treasure, and validated some of his information to be of value.
There are believers and sceptics in science, both have their place as they should. But no one knows for sure until the papers are published.
Tinker
Are you sure of that as I recall he shut it down when he woke up, before he had to go to work?
Cheers,
Dean
P.S If you know where it is in the thread can you please link, I tried finding it but ran out of steam ...
Yes that is what he said.
I suspect he has a day job.
Tinker
Quote from: Tinker on February 03, 2008, 04:04:05 AM
Yes that is what he said.
I suspect he has a day job.
Tinker
Therefore you do agree with my point that his actions were contradictory?
Cheers,
Dean
Morning All,
It is 3 AM in my neck of the woods, but I have posted two videos. But I can not figure out why they have no sound. They recorded with sound, and when I click the file on my computer, it opens in real player and has sound. So why no sound on Youtube?
It is recorded with a web cam. File type is .wmv
Thanks and I will read your help in the morning when I wake up and try to fix it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2ycczuFEF8
Night all,
Bruce
How about starting a OC-MPMM replications information exchange only thread?
@Bruce
I have sound when I play it
Quote from: PolyMatrix on February 03, 2008, 04:14:16 AM
@Bruce
I have sound when I play it
That is great news! I wonder why there is no sound for me?
Oh well, off to bed! LOL I am happy now that others can see and hear them. ;D ;D
Night,
Bruce
Bruce,
Nice Vid!
I have sound too.. though i find it hard to perceive the acceleration. Is it at all possible that you can do this by fixing the stators in place with blue tac or something as I can't help but believe you are adding energy into the system (not accusing you of deliberate fakery).
Cheers,
Dean
Dean
Based on his postings he "Shut It Down" before he went to bed I wasn't there. His motivations and thought processes were not not made clear to me.
Again do you have any information that you are willing to present that he is not genuine?
TINKER
Quote from: Tinker on February 03, 2008, 04:34:40 AM
Dean
Based on his postings he "Shut It Down" before he went to bed I wasn't there. His motivations and thought processes were not not made clear to me.
Again do you have any information that you are willing to present that he is not genuine?
TINKER
Can you please post a link to those quotes as I honestly remember it differently and I just cant find it ?
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 03, 2008, 04:18:52 AM
Bruce,
Nice Vid!
I have sound too.. though i find it hard to perceive the acceleration. Is it at all possible that you can do this by fixing the stators in place with blue tac or something as I can't help but believe you are adding energy into the system (not accusing you of deliberate fakery).
Cheers,
Dean
@Dean
How could he add energy? He did not do any additional movements other than the start up.
hmmm.... maybe he was wiggling his fore finger :D
Dean.... why don't U construct one of these little beast? Then U can answer all your own q"s
U must be thinking of the Steorn rep video where the guy was oscillating a magnet to induce rotation ?
Regards
Bill
@dean_mcgowan
QuoteI have sound too.. though i find it hard to perceive the acceleration.
I have to agree there. I also have a hard time hearing acceleration - and I've been tinkering with sounds as a hobby for years. I'm however a little bit hopefull that there is something exciting behind all this, although trying to keep my sceptic half alert. :)
EDIT: Most camcorders have a sound frequency range of approx. 20hz-48.000hz. If one was to use the raw sound (i.e. not these mp3 versions that are embeded in youtube videos) from a recording like this, it should (depending on the level of noise) be quite easy to find any acceleration by loading it into software with a spectrum analysis view of the whole file (Adobe Audition for example). In spectrum view mode the sound coming off one of these things will look like a broad or narrow line (depending on the amount of frequencies the rotor generates), going up if accelerating or down if decelerating - easy peasy.
Hello All,
Just a few words here....
@ All Skeptics,
Look, we are all doing research here, and we are all endeavoring to determine once and for all if Al's device works. While we do this, it is definitely great to have a an objective point of view along with a healthy dose of skepticism. But any time spent bashing Al or this motor has no place here. We've already been discussing this motor for 140 pages and I'm sure that the serious builders here don't want to hear more of this. I'm sure many here will agree with me that we wouldn't even bother spending time and money on this thing if it didin't show any promise whatsoever. I have one of these things sitting on my desk right now, and after some corrections have been made to the rotor disk (which was improperly sized), then I too will post results. Point is that this motor is showing signs of working, and though I definitely maintain a level-headed perspective on it, I'm not going to bash Al for taking the time to show the idea to us. Right or wrong, we will get to the end of this; 'nuff said.
@Bruce,
Great video. but like others mentioned, we can barely hear it (I couldn't and I was trying to listen to it over the phone remember!). I would recommend that you put the camera closer to the setup. Another alternative would be to route the audio input to a computer mic and set that close to the rig with the input volume turned all the way up. Lastly, it would help if you added some sort of visual indicator to the rotor (like a strip of tape) so we can get an idea of how fast it is spinning.
God Bless,
Jason O
Dear Sterling,
I think what you are implying is that the 10 minutes of running in the situation you are describing was due to the bringing of the stator magnet into position, serving to sort of spring-load the device, which then eventually dissapated.
This is correct, the kinetic energy required to bring the stator arm in was transfered to rotational energy, then of course once that is used the unit stops. Well done.
However, Al reports to have run his motor for 7 hours continues, at which point he shut it off so he could go to bed. Also, in Al's situation, the stator magnets are already in place, and once they get in sync with the rotor, they cause the aparatus to ACCELERATE.
No Proof, no independent validation ...just heresay. This would easily be resolved with an independent validation. I have also seen devices accelerate and in every case it could be explained.
At least five people have replicated Al's effect to some degree:
Has any of them got a self runner...lets say runs for a couple of hours, with measured power output, degausing tests???. If it was a straightforward as it appeared on youtube it should be a lot easier. You and I both know a clever engineer who is working on this with no positive results so far. Might I remind you of Perendev, who also had a video on the net with a working motor!!!!
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications
For these reasons, I don't think your skepticism from your other experience can be tranferred here.
Actually quite the oppersite, I stand by my statement that there is no independently validated self running magnetic motor in existence. I hope there would be so we could test one to see if they degauss. I think you could expand that to experiences...I have had many over the years.
I do encourage people to continue there work, you never know when someone might get lucky.
Furthermore, it may be reason to have hope that your other scenario may be legit after all -- just very early in R&D, with a lot of characterizing and engineering before it will be of practical value. If I recall correctly, that set-up was quite similar to OC / Al's
Sorry on that count, I cant reveal the details of the setup (NDA) However , I have no doubt it will come to nothing. But I never close the book. But I will admit, it had me fooled for a while (20 mins)
PS dont worry,
I wont be posting here for a while, I seldom do.
Kind Regards
Mark
Quote from: vipond50 on February 03, 2008, 05:37:13 AM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 03, 2008, 04:18:52 AM
Bruce,
Nice Vid!
I have sound too.. though i find it hard to perceive the acceleration. Is it at all possible that you can do this by fixing the stators in place with blue tac or something as I can't help but believe you are adding energy into the system (not accusing you of deliberate fakery).
Cheers,
Dean
@Dean
How could he add energy? He did not do any additional movements other than the start up.
hmmm.... maybe he was wiggling his fore finger :D
Dean.... why don't U construct one of these little beast? Then U can answer all your own q"s
U must be thinking of the Steorn rep video where the guy was oscillating a magnet to induce rotation ?
Regards
Bill
Specs are too loose and no convincing reps so far, otherwise I would certainly try.
After downloading Bruce's video with Videoget and playing it back in mplayerc the sound of the acceleration is much clearer and definite, but it does not rule out the fact Bruce imparted quite a lot of energy to start the rotor, it is possible that the system was accelerating to find the resonant speed, whats needed is a comparison, how much energy imparted by Bruce's hand compared to the acceleration time.
A suggestion to anyone that wants to try, get one of those motors from an old portable CD player and connect it to the shaft of the rotor, and some kind of variable control, then adjust rotor speed, at resonance the motor should draw the least current.
Kudos to Bruce, nicely done.
Quote from: RunningBare on February 03, 2008, 07:45:48 AM
After downloading Bruce's video with Videoget and playing it back in mplayerc the sound of the acceleration is much clearer and definite, but it does not rule out the fact Bruce imparted quite a lot of energy to start the rotor, it is possible that the system was accelerating to find the resonant speed, whats needed is a comparison, how much energy imparted by Bruce's hand compared to the acceleration time.
A suggestion to anyone that wants to try, get one of those motors from an old portable CD player and connect it to the shaft of the rotor, and some kind of variable control, then adjust rotor speed, at resonance the motor should draw the least current.
Kudos to Bruce, nicely done.
What part of "as long as Bruce is interacting with the system in any way whilst it is accelerating he potentially is adding energy" don't you guys get ?
QuoteA suggestion to anyone that wants to try, get one of those motors from an old portable CD player and connect it to the shaft of the rotor, and some kind of variable control, then adjust rotor speed, at resonance the motor should draw the least current.
Seconded!
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg73536.html#msg73536 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg73536.html#msg73536)
FunkyJive
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 03, 2008, 07:51:16 AM
What part of "as long as Bruce is interacting with the system in any way whilst it is accelerating he potentially is adding energy" don't you guys get ?
I probably understand a lot more than you, for example his nervous system and muscles could well be imparting enough energy via his fingers into the stator as he holds them, in layman's terms, trembling hands.
These are possibilities I do not discount, just as I do not discount there may be some potential in this.
Quote from: baobab68 on February 03, 2008, 01:38:18 AM
I have registered for one purpose and one purpose only. I just can't *stand* it anymore and I have to say something.
People's names get an @ sign in front of them if you are speaking "at" them. You don't need to put an @ sign in front of everyone's name, every single time. You use it when you are addressing someone directly, or responding to a comment they made. You don't use it when you are talking *about* them.
Example:
1) @Omnibus: could you please stop using unneeded @ signs?
2) I really hope Alsetalokin's motor turns out to be the next big thing.
See the magic there? I referred to Alsetalokin, but I didn't need to put an @ sign in front of his name, because I was talking about him in passing, not speaking directly to him.
I'm sorry to draw attention to this but with such erudite discussion going on, this simple little detail is driving me crazy.
The @ sign is used to indicate that whatever is after it isn't someone's name but his or her internet handle. Therefore, I will continue using @ when referring to handles, rather than actual names. And, by the way, there's no one either here or in Steorn forum going by the name Alsetalokin, as you're trying to make us believe. You may restrain in the future from making useless comments.
@Bruce_TPU,
Using a tachometer in this case is a must. Hate to be negative but the only thing I see here are the harmonics during the wind down. I think that's the problem, not that your "nervous system and muscles could well be imparting enough energy via his fingers into the stator as he holds them, in layman's terms, trembling hands" and similar ridiculousness. I'm not saying that resonance effects are not worth exploring and aren't connected with the acceleration effect we're looking for.but that still doesn't seem to be it. Experiments with a tachometer may prove me wrong but I'm not holding my breath.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 03, 2008, 09:07:46 AM
@Bruce_TPU,
Using a tachometer in this case is a must. Hate to be negative but the only thing I see here are the harmonics during the wind down. I think that's the problem, not that your "nervous system and muscles could well be imparting enough energy via his fingers into the stator as he holds them, in layman's terms, trembling hands" and similar ridiculousness. I'm not saying that resonance effects are not worth exploring and aren't connected with the acceleration effect we're looking for.but that still doesn't seem to be it. Experiments with a tachometer may prove me wrong but I'm not holding my breath.
Calling my theory ridiculous?, oh I'm hurt, but thats ok :D
Did you miss the part where it accelerated
before wind down?
It is far from ridiculous that the human nervous system can react at incredibly fast speeds, even to the point of being imperceptible to the naked eye, yes I could be wrong, but not something to be discounted as ridiculous.
No, I don?t see acceleration before wind down. The entire run is a wind down as far as I can judge from the pitch of the sound as well (@Yadaraf may try to analyze it, I hope). It?s an optical illusion that there?s acceleration. An experiment with a tachometer may prove me wrong and that would be nothing short of reproducing @alsetalokin?s effect, Bruce?s nervous system notwithstanding.
ummm interesting twist to the OCMPMM config
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=htw07uB6bXY
If acceleration or momentarily sustained speed is in evidence with Bruce's motor then this could simply be the result of harmonic resonance as the kinetic energy in the main rotor reduces. However, this would not suggest a rise in latent energy from the initial spin.
By way of a simple example, using a hi-fi speaker emitting a falling bass tone in a room with multiple resonant/reflective paths, one could simultaneously turn down the volume and frequency - though a relative increase in perceived audio volume (at frequencies of room resonance) would not suggest an increase in output power. At such points it would merely be a reduction in loss that resonance brings about.
However, from the various posts and results that I've seen, I believe that resonance is almost certainly a critical factor to get this motor to work at-all, where weights, flux density, diameters (etc etc) would collectively prove critical in achieving positive results. This is where I believe that a motor-driven system to monitor energy absorption could prove invaluable in establishing where those points of resonance may exist and would offer the means for optimisation. Here a simple (unrelated) example would be to manually tune to a radio station (to hererodyne and therefore tune at the right frequency), though a broadcast signal is first needed to reveal when optimal tuning has been achieved. A driven rotor would effectively provide that "broadcast signal".
FunkyJive
Now looking at new Specs
144mm Diameter
18mm Thick HDPE
Spacing from edge of Rotor to inner magnet line 13mm.
1/4 " Slots 12mm deep.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2F144rotor2.jpg&hash=9074c80ffb4e69453b385e23b0157cf30d0ec855)
Have cleared 2mm off a piece of 20mm HDPE so it will be 18mm thick.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2F144rotor1.jpg&hash=dfb90dba67f4d221a9a72e96059eb99c027839e4)
Weight without magnets or axle is 246g
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2F144rotor3.jpg&hash=bc07dee2ce3761f3e09e866740d8af1369e098ed)
Weight with Rotor magnets added it is 271g
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2F144rotor4.jpg&hash=4dca30d4b5ce8e3455f279db78ee302cadae1723)
Instead of marking the magnets with a Pen I have used insulation tape wrapped around that also makes the magnets fit tight into the rotor.
Ran out of time for this weekend as have to set off travelling early evening, but will try mount it maybe.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: FunkyJive on February 03, 2008, 10:29:46 AM
If acceleration or momentarily sustained speed is in evidence with Bruce's motor then this could simply be the result of harmonic resonance as the kinetic energy in the main rotor reduces. However, this would not suggest a rise in latent energy from the initial spin.
By way of a simple example, using a hi-fi speaker emitting a falling bass tone in a room with multiple resonant/reflective paths, one could simultaneously turn down the volume and frequency - though an increase in perceived audio volume (at points of room resonance) would not suggest an increase in output power. At such points it would merely be a reduction in loss that resonance brings about.
However, from the various posts and results that I've seen, I believe that resonance is almost certainly a critical factor to get this motor to work at-all, where weights, flux density, diameters (etc etc) would all prove critical in achieving positive results. This is where I believe that a motor-driven system to monitor energy absorption could prove invaluable in establishing where those points of resonance may exist and means for optimisation. Again, a loose analogy would be to manually tune to a radio station (to hererodyne and therefore tune at the right frequency), though a broadcast signal is needed to reveal when optimal tuning has been achieved.
FunkyJive
I agree, these are the lines along which we should try to seek the solution. This has to be explained away better, though: "then [the ostensible acceleration] could simply be the result of harmonic resonance as the kinetic energy in the main rotor reduces." Acceleration needs energy input, not reduction. Unless, you can show a mechanism whereby the initially imparted energy is somehow discharged differently than the way it goes down in an usual wind down and somehow turns into input rather than loss.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 03, 2008, 10:46:05 AM
Quote from: FunkyJive on February 03, 2008, 10:29:46 AM
If acceleration or momentarily sustained speed is in evidence with Bruce's motor then this could simply be the result of harmonic resonance as the kinetic energy in the main rotor reduces. However, this would not suggest a rise in latent energy from the initial spin.
By way of a simple example, using a hi-fi speaker emitting a falling bass tone in a room with multiple resonant/reflective paths, one could simultaneously turn down the volume and frequency - though an increase in perceived audio volume (at points of room resonance) would not suggest an increase in output power. At such points it would merely be a reduction in loss that resonance brings about.
However, from the various posts and results that I've seen, I believe that resonance is almost certainly a critical factor to get this motor to work at-all, where weights, flux density, diameters (etc etc) would all prove critical in achieving positive results. This is where I believe that a motor-driven system to monitor energy absorption could prove invaluable in establishing where those points of resonance may exist and means for optimisation. Again, a loose analogy would be to manually tune to a radio station (to hererodyne and therefore tune at the right frequency), though a broadcast signal is needed to reveal when optimal tuning has been achieved.
FunkyJive
I agree, these are the lines along which we should try to seek the solution. This has to be explained away better, though: "then [the ostensible acceleration] could simply be the result of harmonic resonance as the kinetic energy in the main rotor reduces." Acceleration needs energy input, not reduction. Unless, you can show a mechanism whereby the initially imparted energy is somehow discharged differently than the way it goes down in an usual wind down and somehow turns into input rather than loss.
It's a long shot but there could be an elastic function between the rotor and the stators whereby the stators store some of the energy imparted into the rotor and release it back again. looooooooong shot .. given that there is no quantitative measurements of acceleration.
If we could see that the stators slowed down in relation to the speed gain of the rotor .. then maybe .. but that doesnt seem apparent even from casual observations made of the videos.
Hmmmm...
Dean
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 03, 2008, 06:41:16 AM
Quote from: vipond50 on February 03, 2008, 05:37:13 AM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 03, 2008, 04:18:52 AM
Bruce,
Nice Vid!
I have sound too.. though i find it hard to perceive the acceleration. Is it at all possible that you can do this by fixing the stators in place with blue tac or something as I can't help but believe you are adding energy into the system (not accusing you of deliberate fakery).
Cheers,
Dean
@Dean
How could he add energy? He did not do any additional movements other than the start up.
hmmm.... maybe he was wiggling his fore fingerÃ, :D
Dean.... why don't U construct one of these little beast? Then U can answer all your own q"s
U must be thinking of the Steorn rep video where the guy was oscillating a magnet to induce rotation ?
Regards
Bill
Specs are too loose and no convincing reps so far, otherwise I would certainly try.
@dean_mcgowan
So, since you plan no attempt at replication, are we to assume that you are simply positioning yourself as a stumbling block to those who are?
If so, what is your ultimate gain if you are successful?
Quote from: g4macdad on February 03, 2008, 11:14:09 AM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 03, 2008, 06:41:16 AM
Quote from: vipond50 on February 03, 2008, 05:37:13 AM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 03, 2008, 04:18:52 AM
Bruce,
Nice Vid!
I have sound too.. though i find it hard to perceive the acceleration. Is it at all possible that you can do this by fixing the stators in place with blue tac or something as I can't help but believe you are adding energy into the system (not accusing you of deliberate fakery).
Cheers,
Dean
@Dean
How could he add energy? He did not do any additional movements other than the start up.
hmmm.... maybe he was wiggling his fore finger :D
Dean.... why don't U construct one of these little beast? Then U can answer all your own q"s
U must be thinking of the Steorn rep video where the guy was oscillating a magnet to induce rotation ?
Regards
Bill
Specs are too loose and no convincing reps so far, otherwise I would certainly try.
@dean_mcgowan
So, since you plan no attempt at replication, are we to assume that you are simply positioning yourself as a stumbling block to those who are?
If so, what is your ultimate gain if you are successful?
Absolutely contrary to your claim I am totally in favour, should Al offer a full specification and stop this ridiculous guessing game, of doing a complete precise replication with all exact parts at whatever cost.
Since he is not forthcoming with all of these details and will not post a video of the quality commensurate with such a discovery, be it OU or otherwise. Then i plan to voice my opinion of the folly of those that are attempting proofs and hope that they too would put more pressure to gain access to the necessary information.
Hence my success might benefit all involved.
I also am not part of some black book debunking project that some others might try to imply ::)
Regards,
Dean
@ Dean - The fact of the matter is that Al denied overunity.
Nevertheless he was barraged with claims that he did claim overunity and he was claimed to be a fraud and continues to be by persons like yourself.
Others with resources have attempted a replication and have discovered a strange magnetic anomoly. That alone should be investigated on it's own merits.
You are not helping, and indeed are hindering the efforts of these people investigating this phenomon with the attitude portrayed in your posts.
Why ?
Good morning All,
The sound is fine on my copy of the video on my computer. Any idea why it would not be on youtube? I want all of you to hear it. I am sorry the sound did not transfer well, and I don't know why.
Did all watch both video's? Is the sound the same in both of them?
I will make one right next to the motor later today. It will be more for sound than visual.
My Tachometer arrives Wednesday.
Anyone I have shown it to in person, see and hear the acceleration.
The reason I spin it so fast to start off, is like I said earlier, there are certain RPM it seems to like. It is only at these RPM's I see the effect. One is at the very fast initial speed, another a bit less than that. It will not accelerate at just any RPM.
It is cool, though, the last few seconds of a wind down. It just keeps slowly spinning around. And then it finally stop. I will have to make a video of this too, so you all can see. It just shows how close this thing is to being self running. IMHO
@ Running Bear
Perhaps you can post the amplified wave file of my videos, for every one?
@ Dean
I can tape the stators. I simply hold them because they are on bearings. I simply did not want to get gunk on my base. I still have a replication to make with this base.
Cheers all,
Bruce
QuoteIt's a long shot but there could be an elastic function between the rotor and the stators whereby the stators store some of the energy imparted into the rotor and release it back again. looooooooong shot .. given that there is no quantitative measurements of acceleration.
If we could see that the stators slowed down in relation to the speed gain of the rotor .. then maybe .. but that doesnt seem apparent even from casual observations made of the videos.
Hi Dean.
Yes, sadly video's alone don't provide the frame synchronicity with the rotor in order to appropriately identify the smallest wobbles or point-by-point consistency.
If I had more time available then (as electronics is part of my game) I would probably have knocked-up an opto-reflective sensor to trigger frame-grabs from the rotor position. Irrespective of the rotational velocity, the sensor could slowly and progressively be moved around the rotor in attempting to record consistency and evidence of elasticity during rotation at different speeds (or points of resonance), along with resultant interaction of the moving parts. Replaying the compiled frames would result in
very slow-motion video - independent of rotor speed.
I vaguely recall an earlier post claiming positive effects when the rotor
weight was reduced, so I guess that the corresponding reduction in inertia could add weight to this possibility (no pun originally intended - sorry :D).
Probably easier and just as-well to conduct superficial measurements and tuning though, given that the general specs of the claimed working unit are already defined.
FunkyJive
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 03, 2008, 12:06:59 PM
Good morning All,
@ Running Bear
Perhaps you can post the amplified wave file of my videos, for every one?
I'm presently trying to filter the audio, but anyone can hear it if they have a graphic equalizer on there system, cut all frequencies except those from 200hz to 550hz, if need be boost these, to me the acceleration is definitely evident.
Quote
@ Dean
I can tape the stators. I simply hold them because they are on bearings. I simply did not want to get gunk on my base. I still have a replication to make with this base.
Cheers all,
Bruce
I suggest not using anything that will hold the stators solid, a rubber band around the stator and stretched to a fixed point, this will allow oscillation in the stator, you can also adjust the rubber band to increase or decrease sensitivity to oscillation.
Quote from: markdansie on February 03, 2008, 06:37:01 AM
No Proof, no independent validation ...just heresay. This would easily be resolved with an independent validation. I have also seen devices accelerate and in every case it could be explained.
At least five people have replicated Al's effect to some degree:
Has any of them got a self runner...lets say runs for a couple of hours, with measured power output, degausing tests???. If it was a straightforward as it appeared on youtube it should be a lot easier. You and I both know a clever engineer who is working on this with no positive results so far. Might I remind you of Perendev, who also had a video on the net with a working motor!!!!
Mark,
What do you mean "no independent validation, just hearsay"? This is what you call dozens of people building the device, and some of them reporting some accelleration, and some of them reporting some sustained motion?
It seems to me that with your level of skepticism that you would be among the naysayers at the time of the Wright Brothers, saying nothing is flying, though there is a device in the air, with a person aboard, right in front of you. True, at that time, they were not making trans-oceanic flights with 500 people aboard flying at 500 mph, but were only in the early stages of development.
That is what is happening here. The early stages of development. Cut these people some slack, and acknowledge progress and breakthrough when you see it. As it is, people who don't know you might think you are acting like a paid disinformant, denying progress despite evidence to the contrary, that you know about.
As for Doug Furr's replication of the MPMM, his lack of success is not because his device doesn't work; but is because he has not completed it yet. He's had some serious setbacks in his shop, with his right-hand-man quiting on him after seven years, etc.
I don't see people saying "We've proven that this magnet motor is capable of producing useful power continuously." Rather, they are noting some odd behavior that might possibly end up as something useful, but first it must be characterized, understood, and optimized.
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 03, 2008, 11:24:09 AM
Quote from: g4macdad on February 03, 2008, 11:14:09 AM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 03, 2008, 06:41:16 AM
Quote from: vipond50 on February 03, 2008, 05:37:13 AM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 03, 2008, 04:18:52 AM
Bruce,
Nice Vid!
I have sound too.. though i find it hard to perceive the acceleration. Is it at all possible that you can do this by fixing the stators in place with blue tac or something as I can't help but believe you are adding energy into the system (not accusing you of deliberate fakery).
Cheers,
Dean
@Dean
How could he add energy? He did not do any additional movements other than the start up.
hmmm.... maybe he was wiggling his fore finger :D
Dean.... why don't U construct one of these little beast? Then U can answer all your own q"s
U must be thinking of the Steorn rep video where the guy was oscillating a magnet to induce rotation ?
Regards
Bill
Specs are too loose and no convincing reps so far, otherwise I would certainly try.
@dean_mcgowan
So, since you plan no attempt at replication, are we to assume that you are simply positioning yourself as a stumbling block to those who are?
If so, what is your ultimate gain if you are successful?
Absolutely contrary to your claim I am totally in favour, should Al offer a full specification and stop this ridiculous guessing game, of doing a complete precise replication with all exact parts at whatever cost.
Since he is not forthcoming with all of these details and will not post a video of the quality commensurate with such a discovery, be it OU or otherwise. Then i plan to voice my opinion of the folly of those that are attempting proofs and hope that they too would put more pressure to gain access to the necessary information.
Hence my success might benefit all involved.
I also am not part of some black book debunking project that some others might try to imply ::)
Regards,
Dean
Thin defense indeed. Your own Implications are sufficient and I feel no need to do any additional implying. ;)
.
Quote from: RunningBare on February 03, 2008, 12:18:04 PM
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 03, 2008, 12:06:59 PM
Good morning All,
@ Running Bear
Perhaps you can post the amplified wave file of my videos, for every one?
I'm presently trying to filter the audio, but anyone can hear it if they have a graphic equalizer on there system, cut all frequencies except those from 200hz to 550hz, if need be boost these, to me the acceleration is definitely evident.
Quote
@ Dean
I can tape the stators. I simply hold them because they are on bearings. I simply did not want to get gunk on my base. I still have a replication to make with this base.
Cheers all,
Bruce
I suggest not using anything that will hold the stators solid, a rubber band around the stator and stretched to a fixed point, this will allow oscillation in the stator, you can also adjust the rubber band to increase or decrease sensitivity to oscillation.
It is very difficult to hear, but turn the volume right up and just after the 1 minute mark (1:03) you can hear it spin up for a while.
QuoteI have also seen devices accelerate and in every case it could be explained.
@markdansie
With the greatest of respect, have you seen vehicles that run entirely on water accelerate from the electrolysis of water and liberation of hydrogen gas (i.e. commercial fuel cells that appear to have disappeared underground), or other incarnations that use plasma spark to act upon water vapour as part of
re-combinent (closed loop) systems?
I have spoken at-length to researchers that worked for Mercedes who confirmed that fuel cells were quite advanced and proven, and the latter demonstrable but more costly to produce and commercialise. However, the latter incarnation simply re-used water and reportedly provided substantial power output to accelerate a moving body - as we're trying to replicate with this particular closed-loop design by using magnetic force alone.
I'm not aware of the systems you mention, and don't question at-all what you have seen and experienced to draw your own conclusions (which, if said in sincerity, I respect entirely), but absence of OU discovery wouldn't necessarily infer that the possibility of discovery doesn't exist. My personal conclusion from what I have seen and heard to-date is that it would be wise to remain open and objective, and supportive of the tireless efforts of experimenters from which we can all draw better-informed conclusions.
Peace.
FunkyJive
Quote from: JFK on February 03, 2008, 11:44:38 AM
@ Dean - The fact of the matter is that Al denied overunity.
Nevertheless he was barraged with claims that he did claim overunity and he was claimed to be a fraud and continues to be by persons like yourself.
Others with resources have attempted a replication and have discovered a strange magnetic anomoly. That alone should be investigated on it's own merits.
You are not helping, and indeed are hindering the efforts of these people investigating this phenomon with the attitude portrayed in your posts.
Why ?
You seem to have your own personal dialogue ignoring what ever I say.
I am just saying that you cannot replicate without exact specifications.
Now why he wont give them is up to everyone to decide for themselves.
Still makes replication a futile effort IMHO.
And I am sure my opinion is not hampering anyone who is determined enough
and good on them for making their own fun.
I would like to replicate the real thing, hence I wait.
Cheers,
Dean
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 03, 2008, 01:16:25 PM
Quote from: JFK on February 03, 2008, 11:44:38 AM
@ Dean - The fact of the matter is that Al denied overunity.
Nevertheless he was barraged with claims that he did claim overunity and he was claimed to be a fraud and continues to be by persons like yourself.
Others with resources have attempted a replication and have discovered a strange magnetic anomoly. That alone should be investigated on it's own merits.
You are not helping, and indeed are hindering the efforts of these people investigating this phenomon with the attitude portrayed in your posts.
Why ?
You seem to have your own personal dialogue ignoring what ever I say.
I am just saying that you cannot replicate without exact specifications.
Now why he wont give them is up to everyone to decide for themselves.
Still makes replication a futile effort IMHO.
And I am sure my opinion is not hampering anyone who is determined enough
and good on them for making their own fun.
I would like to replicate the real thing, hence I wait.
Cheers,
Dean
The only "exact specifications" we are missing is the actual gauss measurement of each magnet, and the exact bearing model number and whether it had a lubricant or if this was removed.
Cheers,
Bruce
I am sorry about this but I must say something...
@Dean,
You seem to weigh in on the various projects around here and always in a negative sense. It seems to me you want people to fail, or if they ignore you, you seem to try and start arguments to derail the projects. I have been around here for a while and have seen you do this many times.
You need to leave people alone to do their thing, this is how progress is made, trial and error. Maybe you are MIB, who knows, who cares. Like my mom always said, If you do not have anything nice to say do not say anything.
I can't honestly say that I've studied enough posts to draw conclusions about the many individuals concerned, though with regard to the magnet motor I believe I understand Dean's take.
Unless the specifications are sufficently precise then it's not possible to ascertain the validity of the design by replication alone, as there would always be scope for variation and misinterpretation. However, I would agree that attempting to replicate the claimed working design as closely as possible affords the best chance of success - albeit with some tweaking which would almost be inevitable, even if all the specs were to-hand.
I believe that the MIB's (and they undoubtedly scour and post to websites such as this) would adopt a more intelligent, outwardly-sincere approach. If I were such an individual, I would first create something very convincing (though fake) to incite lots of fruitless effort to encourage disenchantment, and then walk away once the idea had gained its own momentum. This would pay far greater dividends amongst the many would-be experimenters, than by simply debunking one specific idea or another, and as a move to competitively steer others away from ideas with promise - leading them down a long and tortuous blind alley.
However, this design appears to hold considerable promise from the many results to-date - so I believe it's a far safer bet ;D
Onwards !!!
FunkyJive
Quote from: starcruiser on February 03, 2008, 01:46:57 PM
I am sorry about this but I must say something...
@Dean,
You seem to weigh in on the various projects around here and always in a negative sense. It seems to me you want people to fail, or if they ignore you, you seem to try and start arguments to derail the projects. I have been around here for a while and have seen you do this many times.
You need to leave people alone to do their thing, this is how progress is made, trial and error. Maybe you are MIB, who knows, who cares. Like my mom always said, If you do not have anything nice to say do not say anything.
I agree i am quite negative. But if you read my posts and read the final outcomes of the projects that I have commented on you will find that i am quite often correct in my evaluations and the consensus often arrives there quite a few posts later. I am sure with or without my input this forum would survive, however I enjoy doing it and I am most time polite. And I try to refrain from ad hominid remarks which I can not always say for my protagonists.
And I am sure your mother is a lovely lady as was mine .. so lets just leave them out of this topic.
PS. Take for instance my quotes regarding calorimtry and the stiffler circuit for which I was poo hoo'd by just about all and the master himself and behold what is he doing at this very moment. Nuff Said
Cheers,
Dean
Quote from: PolyMatrix on February 03, 2008, 03:29:48 AM
@ Yadaraf
Thanks for posting; would it be a good idea to put Al's original Youtube sound track alongside it for comparison?
Just speculating on waveforms and the soliton http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soliton came to mind but can't figure how you could get that effect with magnetic waves. Still fairly certain that its to do with the elements of magnetic power, turning moment of inertia, so weight and radius are important, and a small vibration element in both or one of the rotor and/or stator.
The idea of a magnetic soliton would make the physicists and mathematicians very happy ;D
As anybody who has played with magnets knows a stronger magnet when it gets close enough to a weaker magnet is attracted to it like it was steel.
Not sure if the mathematical model of magnets includes that datum.
@ PolyMatrix, Omni
My analysis program is on a different computer. I'm trying to install it on the computer I use for forums and email -- the one I'm using now -- but I'm having some problems with the sound card. Analysis is quite simple, but Al's video has a loud background hum that will complicate the process. Bruce's video [and audio] are better, but the voice-over is also problematic.
I should have something shortly. Stay tuned. :)
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
I'm unsure about what audio analysis would achieve ahead of significant resonance-related investigations, though I may be able to help with the processing of audio nonetheless.
I have a home music studio with exclusively-professional equipment and a shed-load of audio processor plug-in's (with video sequencing) at my disposal. Although processing out awkward backgrounds might prove challenging, with a turnaround that may take a day-or-two due to limitations in personal time, I'd be happy to chip in wherever I can :)
FunkyJive
Quote from: FunkyJive on February 03, 2008, 03:38:38 PM
I'm unsure about what audio analysis would achieve ahead of significant resonance-related investigations, though I believe that I may be able to help with the processing of audio.
I have a home music studio with exclusively-professional equipment and a shed-load of audio processor plug-in's (with video sequencing) at my disposal. Although processing out awkward backgrounds might prove occasionally challenging, with a turnaround that may take a day-or-two due to limitations in personal time, I'd be happy to chip in wherever I can :)
FunkyJive
FunkyJive,
Cooperation is what it's all about. :D Consider yourself another piece of the puzzle. If you want to use your skills to pre-process the soundtrack that would be great. Divide and conquer so to speak.
If you can do something with Al's and Burce's soundtrack while I fix my analysis tool, that would be great.
If you want to do the analysis as well, you can download a 30-day trial version of the DSSF3 software here:
... DSSF3: http://www.soft32.com/Download/free-trial/DSSF3_Light/4-13282-1.html
Lastly, if we consider that these devices -- although very similar -- are constructed differently with different parts and tolerances, we can expect different baseline acoustic signatures. What I'm interested in is whether different devices resonate similarly at similar RPMs. I'd like to see the devices in the same room at the same time during spin down, but that is asking too much for now. Follow my thinking?
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
In case you guys missed this earlier in the saga, a vid with some info on the audio in Al's original vid...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7M3nasCdWI
Quote from: ken_nyus on February 03, 2008, 04:02:31 PM
In case you guys missed this earlier in the saga, a vid with some info on the audio in Al's original vid...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7M3nasCdWI
Ken,
That's terrific. Thanks :)
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
I'm going to submit this to this forum, rather than FizzX, as I was originally intending - because it has the handy 'Attach' feature - and I want to show what some of my data looks like.
I'm really responding to RunningBare and TPUBruce on an experiment I did with Bruce's 2nd video - OCAL Magnet Motor Experiment 2.
I downloaded the audio portion of the file from the 2nd video (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l2ycczuFEF8 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l2ycczuFEF8)) using videoget (thanks for the heads-up on videoget, RunningBare!). Then, I turned the mp3 into a wav and brought it up in my sound editing software (SAWPro). When I look at the areas without voice, there is a regular, high pitched, oscillation. When I enhance the area, it is easy to see the oscillation as a sine and measure the time between each peak. My hypothosis is that if the rotor speeds up - the time between sine peaks will reduce. Conversely, if the rotor slows down - the time between sine peaks will increase. You may recall that pitch is measured on a logarithmic scale in which an octave higher requires double the frequency of the original pitch. So, if the rotor speeds up enough to hear the difference - we should be able to measure a difference in frequency of the primary oscillation.
Please find a snapshot from my editing software attached showing the sine at one location within the wav file (just before the first spoken, "Acceleration...". You can see the beginning of the speech on the right side of the pic.
I measured the sine from peak to peak in 16 samples - four consecutive samples in each of 4 locations which are marked by speech. Each sample represents a moment in time within the audio track. My idea there is that it's pretty easy to not center the measurement exactly (since I'm eyeing it...) at the peak of a sine, and since the measurements are in thousands of a second - four in a row is more accurate.
The first location is slightly before the first spoken, "Acceleration...":
22.873
22.890
22.906 .048 seconds between first and last sample
22.921
The second location is just after the second, "Acceleration...":
26.925
26.941 .049 seconds between first and last sample
26.957
26.974
The third location is just after, "More Acceleration...":
33.24
33.254 .05 seconds between first and last sample
33.272
33.290
The final location is just after, "Goin' real good now..."
47.856
47.875 .053 seconds between first and last sample
47.891
47.909
If my relational hypothosis is correct - there was no acceleration - in fact (with excuses for the 'by-eye' methodology for the location of each peak) it probably slowed down.
<edit> fixed fat-fingering
@dean_mcgowan,
This needs further explanation (in case there were acceleration):
?there could be an elastic function between the rotor and the stators whereby the stators store some of the energy imparted into the rotor and release it back again
?
If we could see that the stators slowed down in relation to the speed gain of the rotor .. then maybe ..?
It?s one thing a proposed explanation to be a long shot and quite another that explanation to be simply implausible. Mind you, the stators you refer to aren?t even rotating. Probably you could elaborate more on that elastic function proposal.
Quote from: blue_energy on February 03, 2008, 04:38:21 PM
I'm going to submit this to this forum, rather than FizzX, as I was originally intending - because it has the handy 'Attach' feature - and I want to show what some of my data looks like.
I'm really responding to RunningBare and TPUBruce on an experiment I did with Bruce's 2nd video - OCAL Magnet Motor Experiment 2.
I downloaded the audio portion of the file from the 2nd video (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l2ycczuFEF8 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l2ycczuFEF8)) using videoget (thanks for the heads-up on videoget, RunningBare!). Then, I turned the mp3 into a wav and brought it up in my sound editing software (SAWPro).
......
Blue_Energy,
Could you post your wav file? Thanks. :)
Cheers,
Yada..
.
Yes I agree, sorry guys my initial assessment of the audio was wrong, I filtered the original audio then increased the overall pitch, it is now easy to hear that it is decreasing in acceleration from initial spin up.
http://cosmopod.com/mysite/barefm/op/sample_wave.zip
Quote from: blue_energy on February 03, 2008, 04:38:21 PM
I'm going to submit this to this forum, rather than FizzX, as I was originally intending - because it has the handy 'Attach' feature - and I want to show what some of my data looks like.
I'm really responding to RunningBare and TPUBruce on an experiment I did with Bruce's 2nd video - OCAL Magnet Motor Experiment 2.
I downloaded the audio portion of the file from the 2nd video (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l2ycczuFEF8 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l2ycczuFEF8)) using videoget (thanks for the heads-up on videoget, RunningBare!). Then, I turned the mp3 into a wav and brought it up in my sound editing software (SAWPro). When I look at the areas without voice, there is a regular, high pitched, oscillation. When I enhance the area, it is easy to see the oscillation as a sine and measure the time between each peak. My hypothosis is that if the rotor speeds up - the time between sine peaks will reduce. Conversely, if the rotor slows down - the time between sine peaks will increase. You may recall that pitch is measured on a logarithmic scale in which an octave higher requires double the frequency of the original pitch. So, if the rotor speeds up enough to hear the difference - we should be able to measure a difference in frequency of the primary oscillation.
Please find a snapshot from my editing software attached showing the sine at one location within the wav file (just before the first spoken, "Acceleration...". You can see the beginning of the speech on the right side of the pic.
I measured the sine from peak to peak in 16 samples - four consecutive samples in each of 4 locations which are marked by speech. Each sample represents a moment in time within the audio track. My idea there is that it's pretty easy to not center the measurement exactly (since I'm eyeing it...) at the peak of a sine, and since the measurements are in thousands of a second - four in a row is more accurate.
The first location is slightly before the first spoken, "Acceleration...":
22.873
22.890
22.906 .048 seconds between first and last sample
22.921
The second location is just after the second, "Acceleration...":
26.925
26.941 .049 seconds between first and last sample
26.957
26.974
The third location is just after, "More Acceleration...":
33.24
33.254 .05 seconds between first and last sample
33.272
33.290
The final location is just after, "Goin' real good now..."
47.856
47.875 .053 seconds between first and last sample
47.891
47.909
If my relational hypothosis is correct - there was no acceleration - in fact (with excuses for the 'by-eye' methodology for the location of each peak) it probably slowed down.
<edit> fixed fat-fingering
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 03, 2008, 05:19:00 PM
Quote from: blue_energy on February 03, 2008, 04:38:21 PM
I'm going to submit this to this forum, rather than FizzX, as I was originally intending - because it has the handy 'Attach' feature - and I want to show what some of my data looks like.
I'm really responding to RunningBare and TPUBruce on an experiment I did with Bruce's 2nd video - OCAL Magnet Motor Experiment 2.
I downloaded the audio portion of the file from the 2nd video (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l2ycczuFEF8 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l2ycczuFEF8)) using videoget (thanks for the heads-up on videoget, RunningBare!). Then, I turned the mp3 into a wav and brought it up in my sound editing software (SAWPro).
......
Blue_Energy,
Could you post your wav file? Thanks. :)
Cheers,
Yada..
.
The wave is too big, Yada (over 13mb). If you can convert it yourself, I would be happy to post the original mp3 though. Just let me know.
Quote from: blue_energy on February 03, 2008, 05:53:03 PM
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 03, 2008, 05:19:00 PM
Quote from: blue_energy on February 03, 2008, 04:38:21 PM
I'm going to submit this to this forum, rather than FizzX, as I was originally intending - because it has the handy 'Attach' feature - and I want to show what some of my data looks like.
I'm really responding to RunningBare and TPUBruce on an experiment I did with Bruce's 2nd video - OCAL Magnet Motor Experiment 2.
I downloaded the audio portion of the file from the 2nd video (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l2ycczuFEF8 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l2ycczuFEF8)) using videoget (thanks for the heads-up on videoget, RunningBare!). Then, I turned the mp3 into a wav and brought it up in my sound editing software (SAWPro).
......
Blue_Energy,
Could you post your wav file? Thanks. :)
Cheers,
Yada..
.
The wave is too big, Yada (over 13mb). If you can convert it yourself, I would be happy to post the original mp3 though. Just let me know.
Originals are always better anyway, Blue. If you can attach the MP3 ... go for it. I can work it just as well. Thanks.
I just got the analyzer working on my primary PC - a new laptop really -- and I'm calibrating it as we speak. (FYI, I live in California -- GMT-8.)
Cheers, :)
Yada ..
.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 03, 2008, 06:11:42 PM
Quote from: blue_energy on February 03, 2008, 05:53:03 PM
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 03, 2008, 05:19:00 PM
Quote from: blue_energy on February 03, 2008, 04:38:21 PM
I'm going to submit this to this forum, rather than FizzX, as I was originally intending - because it has the handy 'Attach' feature - and I want to show what some of my data looks like.
I'm really responding to RunningBare and TPUBruce on an experiment I did with Bruce's 2nd video - OCAL Magnet Motor Experiment 2.
I downloaded the audio portion of the file from the 2nd video (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l2ycczuFEF8 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l2ycczuFEF8)) using videoget (thanks for the heads-up on videoget, RunningBare!). Then, I turned the mp3 into a wav and brought it up in my sound editing software (SAWPro).
......
Blue_Energy,
Could you post your wav file? Thanks. :)
Cheers,
Yada..
.
The wave is too big, Yada (over 13mb). If you can convert it yourself, I would be happy to post the original mp3 though. Just let me know.
Originals are always better anyway, Blue. If you can attach the MP3 ... go for it. I can work it just as well. Thanks.
I just got the analyzer working on my primary PC - a new laptop really -- and I'm calibrating it as we speak. (FYI, I live in California -- GMT-8.)
Cheers, :)
Yada ..
.
Okay - here you go! Good luck!
OK good people...
I've just run a couple of Waves processors on the important part of the original video - generally to remove most of the multiband buzz and lift the detail a little. It's only a hi-res MP3 to limit file size from the processed WAV.
Maybe someone has got a little more time that myself to play around with it further, though hopefully will help to serve as a point of general reference. Must get some shut-eye now - work tomorrow and it's 2:25am over here !
http://www.funkyjive.com/Audio/ (http://www.funkyjive.com/Audio/) - There's only one track - 9.4Mb
Chin chin :)
FunkyJive
.
RE: Spectrum analysis of Al's first video
It took a while to process Al's first video. Somehow I managed .. even while the Super Bowl was playing. Good game.
I sampled Al's video three times at two different places, for a total of six samples as shown in the figure below. Three analyses were performed for self-sustaining rotation at 1700 rpm [three rotating stators]. Another three at 4700 rpm -- after acceleration [one rotating stator]. I've included some basic observations in the figure below. Al's voice-over didn't make this easy. All inferences are welcome.
Next stop: analyzing Bruce's soundtrack.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@Yadaraf,
Thanks for the spectral analysis. So, the characteristic frequencies in my first wave are 63Hz and 2kHz while here they are at 180Hz and 1.6kHz. I wonder if you checked the other files I submitted here just to see if the data are reproducible. Waiting to see what Bruce's data will yield.
On another note, was anyone able to open @korkscrew's applet: http://home.earthlink.net/~danniee/whipmag/WMModel.htm?
EDIT: OK, I got it. It only opens in IE, Firefox isn't its friend.
Quote from: FunkyJive on February 03, 2008, 09:27:12 PM
OK good people...
I've just run a couple of Waves processors on the important part of the original video - generally to remove most of the multiband buzz and lift the detail a little. It's only a hi-res MP3 to limit file size from the processed WAV.
Maybe someone has got a little more time that myself to play around with it further, though hopefully will help to serve as a point of general reference. Must get some shut-eye now - work tomorrow and it's 2:25am over here !
http://www.funkyjive.com/Audio/ (http://www.funkyjive.com/Audio/) - There's only one track - 9.4Mb
Chin chin :)
FunkyJive
FunkyJive,
Great job on the processing. An analyses of your soundtrack at the 1700 RPM point shows peaks that were not obvious in the original video.
Cheers, :)
Yada ..
.
Quote from: FunkyJive on February 03, 2008, 09:27:12 PM
OK good people...
I've just run a couple of Waves processors on the important part of the original video - generally to remove most of the multiband buzz and lift the detail a little. It's only a hi-res MP3 to limit file size from the processed WAV.
Maybe someone has got a little more time that myself to play around with it further, though hopefully will help to serve as a point of general reference. Must get some shut-eye now - work tomorrow and it's 2:25am over here !
http://www.funkyjive.com/Audio/ (http://www.funkyjive.com/Audio/) - There's only one track - 9.4Mb
Chin chin :)
FunkyJive
That was a heroic effort, FunkyJive! I was hoping to use the resulting wav to do the same peak measuring thing I did with Bruce's. But - it was scrambled too much. It's too hard for me to tell where the peaks are - too hard to identify the sine within the complex wave. Thanks for your effort anyway!
The applet is a Javascript 1.1 make sure you have Java installed correctly by deleting all current installations and then installing the latest version. Sometimes the updates overload and older version and cause problems
I had no problem with it.
Here is the link for Java updates http://www.java.com/en/download/manual.jsp
Edit
That is one GREAT Javascript (Salutes the person who wrote it.)
Quote from: Omnibus on February 03, 2008, 10:32:10 PM
@Yadaraf,
Thanks for the spectral analysis. So, the characteristic frequencies in my first wave are 63Hz and 2kHz while here they are at 180Hz and 1.6kHz. I wonder if you checked the other files I submitted here just to see if the data are reproducible. Waiting to see what Bruce's data will yield.
On another note, was anyone able to open @korkscrew's applet: http://home.earthlink.net/~danniee/whipmag/WMModel.htm?
EDIT: OK, I got it. It only opens in IE, Firefox isn't its friend.
Omni,
The analysis of your soundtrack was performed at the point where your device was spinning [down] at 230 RPM. Al's rotor would have been spinning at a constant 425 RPM -- for 1700 stator RPM. All that I can infer at this point is that both your's and Al's devices appear to produce TWO characteristic frequencies albeit very different.
Cheers, :)
Yada ..
.
@Yadaraf,
So, you took only that portion of my wave where the resonance is occurring and left the rest out, correct? Maybe you can take the initial portions of the other waves I posted here because they are at around 400rpm to see if there would be anything similar to @alsetalokin's characteristic frequencies. Too bad the rotor isn't with me (will be back from the machine shop on Tuesday, I hope) so that I can record it at 425rpm to see if the fingerprints will be the same as in the original.
Also, Bruce has a resonance portion in his wave. Would be interesting to see if it coincides with mine and how it differs from other sections without resonance (say around 425rpm as in the original).
Quote from: Omnibus on February 03, 2008, 11:08:16 PM
@Yadaraf,
So, you took only that portion of my wave where the resonance is occurring and left the rest out, correct? Maybe you can take the initial portions of the other waves I posted here because they are at around 400rpm to see if there would be anything similar to @alsetalokin's characteristic frequencies. Too bad the rotor isn't with me (will be back from the machine shop on Tuesday, I hope) so that I can record it at 425rpm to see if the fingerprints will be the same as in the original.
Also, Bruce has a resonance portion in his wave. Would be interesting to see if it coincides with mine and how it differs from other sections without resonance (say around 425rpm as in the original).
Omni,
You are correct regarding how I sampled your last soundtrack. I focused on the increasing "noise" that you heard around 230 rpm. The figure that I attached shows the octave bars as well as "peak" indicators for the bars. The peaks indicate where the noise was loudest.
If you'd be so kind to post your "400 RPM" wave files for me, I'd be delighted to analyze them like the others. I live in California, which is GMT-8.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@Yadaraf,
I posted them here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg75008.html#msg75008.
Unfortunately, the stators themselves (not the N42's on top of them) are somewhat secured to avoid the wiggle when not held by hand. When I get my rotor back from the machine shop on Tuesday (hopefully) I'll record proper waves with stators turning as required.
Quote from: blue_energy on February 03, 2008, 10:43:32 PM
Quote from: FunkyJive on February 03, 2008, 09:27:12 PM
OK good people...
I've just run a couple of Waves processors on the important part of the original video - generally to remove most of the multiband buzz and lift the detail a little. It's only a hi-res MP3 to limit file size from the processed WAV.
Maybe someone has got a little more time that myself to play around with it further, though hopefully will help to serve as a point of general reference. Must get some shut-eye now - work tomorrow and it's 2:25am over here !
http://www.funkyjive.com/Audio/ (http://www.funkyjive.com/Audio/) - There's only one track - 9.4Mb
Chin chin :)
FunkyJive
That was a heroic effort, FunkyJive! I was hoping to use the resulting wav to do the same peak measuring thing I did with Bruce's. But - it was scrambled too much. It's too hard for me to tell where the peaks are - too hard to identify the sine within the complex wave. Thanks for your effort anyway!
If anyone is interested, I took a stab at removing the noise from Als original video's audio as well. I was fortunate in that there's over a half a second right at the beginning that's pure noise. So - all of the humming noise is gone from my output now (good ol' Cool Edit Pro '96). But, like FJ's - what's left has a slightly 'flanged' sound. Also, even with that - I can't identify any rhythmic signature that I could use to judge when the rotor sped up. The resulting file is over 4MB - so I can't post it here. But, if someone can think of a use for it and wants it bad enough to arrange somewhere for me to ftp it to - I'd do that.
I've looked closely at sound files from three different Whipmag rigs now. I'm really surprised at how smooth Al's is by comparison to the other two. Is it his rotor bearings? There's no 'beating' or clatter in the entire soundtrack. It definitely goes up in pitch though, by the way.
Just been looking at @Al's wave file focusing on the moment of latching.ie just before Al says "there it goes". I amplified the wave and heard what I can only describe as a squeak at the moment of latching. I have not been through the whole sound track carefully but after amplifying the whole file the only point I hear this squeak is at the moment of latching.
Speculation: The rotor or the stator axial is pushed hard against the bearing that for a moment metal rubs against metal.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 03, 2008, 11:29:24 PM
@Yadaraf,
I posted them here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg75008.html#msg75008.
Unfortunately, the stators themselves (not the N42's on top of them) are somewhat secured to avoid the wiggle when not held by hand. When I get my rotor back from the machine shop on Tuesday (hopefully) I'll record proper waves with stators turning as required.
Omni,
See attached figures. Looks like you have something happening around 80 Hz and 300 Hz
Edit: Analyses were performed on data sampled within the first few seconds of the audio recordings.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@Yadaraf,
Thanks again for the spectral analysis. When the rotor arrives I'll take proper waves and will post them for analysis. As of now the 1.6kHz frequency seen in @alsetalokin's is missing in my wave at ~400rpm which is outside of my resonance region but within the region where the effect is exhibited in the original. The lower frequencies in my wave also differ from the original although they are of the same order of magnitude as the original. It's interesting to see what Bruce's wave will show.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 04, 2008, 01:02:49 AM
@Yadaraf,
Thanks again for the spectral analysis. When the rotor arrives I'll take proper waves and will post them for analysis. As of now the 1.6kHz frequency seen in @alsetalokin's is missing in my wave at ~400rpm which is outside of my resonance region but within the region where the effect is exhibited in the original. The lower frequencies in my wave also differ from the original although they are of the same order of magnitude as the original. It's interesting to see what Bruce's wave will show.
@Omni, Bruce
You are most welcome, Omni.
Bruce, your audio was very clean -- best yet -- except for some apparent line noise.
I just analyzed the audio in Bruce's 2nd video and oddly [or not] his device also has modes at 63 Hz and 300 Hz (similar to Omni's). Looks like 63 Hz is line noise in audio source, however, since it appears prominently in the baseline.
For anyone considering these analyses services, please leave a baseline [i.e. no talk, no spinning in your audio]. Also please provide at least 5 seconds of "clean" audio at the RPM to be studied. Thanks.
Yadaraf Reference Labs, Inc. ;D
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@Yadaraf,
That 63Hz was present in the resonance section of my wave and was absent in the section at ~400rpm (outside of the resonance region). Is Bruce's 63Hz also within the resonance area or outside of it? Also, in my resonance part there was a 2kHz peak which is absent in Bruce's wave, correct (@alsetalokin's has 1.6kHz at ~400rpm while mine doesn't show any in the kHz range at ~400rpm)?
Hello All to all replicators
Messing tonight and came across another effect. Double to Triple GW rotation.
Ok... Start your rotor with a gentle spin, say 100 to 125 rpm. Note that all the Stator's all doing GW rotation. Now select a stator and flip in the GW rotation. When it catches it will spin at twice to three time(?) the rotation rate of the stators. Do not note any improvements, but still an interest effect.
So this device will allow both AGW and Double GW rotation.
Did a quick check and here's one data set
Rotor speed = 107 rpm ( this is all three stators spinning GW)
Stator speed = 585 rpm (approx)
DGW rotation = 1199 rpm
Give it a test, would be interesting to here what your devices do.
Regards
Bill
Quote from: Charlie_V on January 31, 2008, 05:45:11 PM
I still think that the counter rotating stator magnet was not exactly 120 degrees in alignment with the others. It looks like it's out of alignment by about 10 degrees to the right in the video. Maybe it's just an optical illusion, but since nothing else is working, why don't you fellows try moving the counter rotating stator magnet closer to one of the other stators, maybe 10-20 degrees down the circle.
I drew a quick picture to show you what I mean. I have a feeling that if it's going to work, it will work with this type of arrangement. Someone atleast try this, or if you have already tried it, what happened?
Thanks,
Charlie
I'm doing some work on Phyllotaxis at the moment, it is intertwined with doubling 1,2,4,8,16... maybe if they are not placed at 120 the magic number might be 137.5 deg (to do with the golden ratio), creating spirals 21 and 34 clockwise and anticlockwise (adjacent fibonacci numbers. Could also be 34, 55 for example). The spirals produce values in groups of threes --that's another reason why this might be relevant: See Marko Rodin vortex math and family number groups 1,4,7 and 2,5,8 3,6,9.
Wishing luck to all you replicators, you might just change the world ;)
Quote from: Omnibus on February 04, 2008, 02:03:29 AM
@Yadaraf,
That 63Hz was present in the resonance section of my wave and was absent in the section at ~400rpm (outside of the resonance region). Is Bruce's 63Hz also within the resonance area or outside of it? Also, in my resonance part there was a 2kHz peak which is absent in Bruce's wave, correct (@alsetalokin's has 1.6kHz at ~400rpm while mine doesn't show any in the kHz range at ~400rpm)?
@Omni
RE 63 Hz: I believe it appears in all of your audio tracks thus far. I've reanalyzed the first soundtrack you provided (see below). Also, Al probably had a mode at 63 Hz, but the loud background hum obscurred it (in my sample but not FunkyJive's).
Here's what I think:
...
We should expect two characteristic frequencies (modes): one corresponding to the rotor bearings and the second corresponding to the stator bearings.For the same RPM, two different bearing sets will produce different frequencies due to the size of the ball or cylinder in the bearing. A ball/cylinder that has a smaller circumference will make more revolutions as the entire bearing rotates, and, thus, produce a higher frequency. Follow?
Al's system had modes at 160 Hz and 900 Hz. I'm guessing the lower mode corresponds to larger bearings (rotor?) and the higher mode corresponds to smaller bearings (stator?)
You had two modes as well, possibly: one at 300 Hz and another at 1000 Hz (look closely at previous figures). Again rotor vs stator
My hypothesis answers the following question.
...
Q: Why did Bruce have only one mode at 300 Hz?Lastly, it appears that you and Bruce are using the same rotor bearing.
Are you? It looks like Al's rotor bearing is much different. :o
I'm going to bed. Night. ;D
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
.
RE Al's rotor bearing
From the hypothesis in my previous post, I would suggest that Al's success might be related to his rotor bearing, which might have larger ball/cylinders that produce the 160 Hz mode.
If you're looking for something to replicate, consider shooting for 160 Hz on the rotor (at 425 RPM [rotor] as per Al's video).
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Dean
You will find a narrative on the Steorn Forum about the 7plus hours of operation of his device and why he shut it down.The date will be close to the beginning of this thread here at OU early last month.
No doubt you will find fault in it, but quite frankly I doubt that anyone here will care.
Folks here are responding to what they see and know, most replicators here are not fools and see value in his information.
AL provided us with information re his findings, and yes it would be wonderful if his information was complete but for many reasons it is not!
AL owes us nothing, he presented us with information at face value without claims beyond what he has demonstrated.
My question to you is beyond speculation or theory what facts do you present that contradict ALs information?
Tinker
Quote from: Tinker on February 04, 2008, 05:58:51 AM
AL owes us nothing, he presented us with information at face value without claims beyond what he has demonstrated.
My question to you is beyond speculation or theory what facts do you present that contradict ALs information?
Tinker
Because quite frankly alsetalokin made an agreement with overconfident to make this open source.
If you want to see the explanation from the Lee-Tseung Lead out theory, go to:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2794.msg75287.html#msg75287
Congratulations to Al and other experimenters.
Lawrence Tseung
Thanks but no thanks Lawrence.
I've kept my comments about this device out of here because I have my own harem of attackers that follow me. No sense in bringing them here. There isn't enough room!
Since Al's posted history would place him in the skeptical knuckle whacker bracket I don't blame him for shutting up. What would you do when your world turns upside-down? Would you go ahead an honor agreements pertaining?
I think reality may have bit him and he is still spinning in his chair wondering what to do. Whether that reality is seeing why it doesn't work or why it does. If 'why it doesn't' then it should be easy. Just report the reason so the rest can go on and the scientific method is complete.
Since I seriously doubt anyone here has run into the 'why it does' problem I doubt you would know what to do. Maybe just shutting up and quietly confirming would be a good first step.
Correct. He owes us nothing. He gave more than most. He did more than most.
If he posts any final working information here it'll probably just wind up in a Chinese patent and part of the Chinese "Post Petroleum Plan".
@ All OU Pioneers ;)
WRT audio processing, thanks everyone for your feedback and kind comments.
I applied a couple of Waves filters, one for general EQ and the other as a very high-Q tuned comb filter (Q between 60 and 100 to avoid false peaks on analysis) in an attempt to rid most of the buzz (horrible wideband stuff that walks all over the audio). It's the comb filter that creates a kind of flanging effect, though this is adjustable with a noise/flatness trade-off.
Clearly very good results have resulted from the forensic efforts of others much better than I (I'm only a spare-time musician ;D), though should you need anything further (in particular, any specific requests) then please never hesitate to ask :)
All the best,
FunkyJive
Quote from: Omnibus on February 03, 2008, 04:42:12 PM
@dean_mcgowan,
This needs further explanation (in case there were acceleration):
?there could be an elastic function between the rotor and the stators whereby the stators store some of the energy imparted into the rotor and release it back again
?
If we could see that the stators slowed down in relation to the speed gain of the rotor .. then maybe ..?
It?s one thing a proposed explanation to be a long shot and quite another that explanation to be simply implausible. Mind you, the stators you refer to aren?t even rotating. Probably you could elaborate more on that elastic function proposal.
Your right, there is every chance it is implausible. But I would like the time to think the interactions through before expanding on or abandoning the theory.
Some data relating to relative rotational speeds of rotors and stators before during and after accelleration and deceleration would be a huge help. Preferably not based on audio samples.
Cheers,
Dean
Quote from: Tinker on February 04, 2008, 05:58:51 AM
Dean
My question to you is beyond speculation or theory what facts do you present that contradict ALs information?
Tinker
COE
Cheers,
Dean
QuoteSome data relating to relative rotational speeds of rotors and stators before during and after accelleration and deceleration would be a huge help. Preferably not based on audio samples.
Cheers,
Dean
A long-shot but for fear of being dubbed "The crazy old preservist of out-dated analogue" ;D, how about using stereo audio recording channels to record the changing fields generated by both stator and rotor magnets in combination. The only requirement would be a few tens (?) of turns of an air-cored coil, with two such coils coupled to L & R channels respectively.
This would be really easy to analyse, the loading on EM fields would be doubtless insignificant for a few mV of required signal, and simple to reproduce graphically? All that would be needed is a stereo mic/line i/p that has (say) a -20dB bandwidth down to a few tens of Hz, as I'm guessing that the amplitude would be an irrelevance as it's the phase relationship between the rotor and stator that requires analysis here. However, you could also see elastic wobbles (should they exist) as HF sinusoids co-existent with the fundamental, and perhaps provide the means available to most to capture and compare results like-for-like.
Just a thought :)
FunkyJive
Some of this data capturing has already been done by Al, on the working device.
Coil readings of the stator, coil readings of the rotor, and coil readings of the space/interaction between the two.
See the images on Clanzer's site for details.
Quote from: FunkyJive on February 04, 2008, 02:46:47 PM
QuoteSome data relating to relative rotational speeds of rotors and stators before during and after accelleration and deceleration would be a huge help. Preferably not based on audio samples.
Cheers,
Dean
A long-shot but for fear of being dubbed "The crazy old preservist of out-dated analogue" ;D, how about using stereo audio recording channels to record the changing fields generated by both stator and rotor magnets in combination. The only requirement would be a few tens (?) of turns of an air-cored coil, with two such coils coupled to L & R channels respectively.
This would be really easy to analyse, the loading on EM fields would be doubtless insignificant for a few mV of required signal, and simple to reproduce graphically? All that would be needed is a stereo mic/line i/p that has (say) a -20dB bandwidth down to a few tens of Hz, as I'm guessing that the amplitude would be an irrelevance as it's the phase relationship between the rotor and stator that requires analysis here. However, you could also see elastic wobbles (should they exist) as HF sinusoids co-existent with the fundamental, and perhaps provide the means available to most to capture and compare results like-for-like.
Just a thought :)
FunkyJive
Works great and generates nice sawtooth waves - which are easy to measure the time between because they come to a point at the top.
.
RANT ALERT ! Please bypass this reply if you don't like my ideas. If, however, you can relate to the below idea, please send me a back channel message.
Jai Guru Deva, Om. 8) Today, NASA beamed the Beatles song "Across the Universe" into space. Song @YouTube.
Many of you know that I have an interest in sacred systems. For example, I think there is something to be said for a pentagonal rotor and a hexagonal stator, because Nature favors these geometries. In Nature, many plants that bear fruit have 5 petals. Cut into an apple -- horizontally -- and note how the seeds are arranged. Neodymium has a hexagonal crystal structure. There are many examples. I hope the WhipMag bears fruit. ;D
But enough about sacred geometry, let's consider sacred sound and Al's rotor. ::)
In my previous posts I mentioned that Al's rotor appears to exhibit a characteristic frequency near 160 Hz. This number sounded familiar, so I did some research. In additional to 96 Hz and 225 Hz, 160 Hz is a secondary tone that arises out of and complements the fundamental "C" tone. The primary Solfeggio frequency is 174 Hz (see PES Wiki frequency section). Today NASA sent another message into space, that contains the phrase "Jai Guru Deva, Om." OM or AUM is the basis of all sounds in the universe. I thought it would be interesting to compare a spectral analysis of a monk chanting "OM" to Al's rotor spinning at 425 Hz. Enjoy.
Keep replies in the back channel, please. Thanks.
Cheers, :)
Yada ..
.
Hmmm... I feel a tune coming on ;D ;D ;D
FunkyJive
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 04, 2008, 05:38:16 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 04, 2008, 02:03:29 AM
@Yadaraf,
That 63Hz was present in the resonance section of my wave and was absent in the section at ~400rpm (outside of the resonance region). Is Bruce's 63Hz also within the resonance area or outside of it? Also, in my resonance part there was a 2kHz peak which is absent in Bruce's wave, correct (@alsetalokin's has 1.6kHz at ~400rpm while mine doesn't show any in the kHz range at ~400rpm)?
@Omni
RE 63 Hz: I believe it appears in all of your audio tracks thus far. I've reanalyzed the first soundtrack you provided (see below). Also, Al probably had a mode at 63 Hz, but the loud background hum obscurred it (in my sample but not FunkyJive's).
Here's what I think:
...We should expect two characteristic frequencies (modes): one corresponding to the rotor bearings and the second corresponding to the stator bearings.
For the same RPM, two different bearing sets will produce different frequencies due to the size of the ball or cylinder in the bearing. A ball/cylinder that has a smaller circumference will make more revolutions as the entire bearing rotates, and, thus, produce a higher frequency. Follow?
Al's system had modes at 160 Hz and 900 Hz. I'm guessing the lower mode corresponds to larger bearings (rotor?) and the higher mode corresponds to smaller bearings (stator?)
You had two modes as well, possibly: one at 300 Hz and another at 1000 Hz (look closely at previous figures). Again rotor vs stator
My hypothesis answers the following question.
... Q: Why did Bruce have only one mode at 300 Hz?
Lastly, it appears that you and Bruce are using the same rotor bearing. Are you?
It looks like Al's rotor bearing is much different. :o
I'm going to bed. Night. ;D
Cheers,
Yada ..
.
I?m using the bearings R188 recommended for the rotor. I think they will be worth playing with only after the rotor weight is fixed (which won?t happen tomorrow, as I expected; last I heard it?s gonna be on Thursday). Then, the question of rotor and stator kgauss profile is to be understood and so on.
Also, remember, Bruce and I were working on something different from what @alsetalokin did. We had N42?s on top of the stators and my stators were additionally somewhat fastened. So, when I get my rotor back I?ll have to send you soundtracks from the real replica for comparison with the soundtrack of the original.
@All
I have some stainless steel ceramic racing bearings on order, so I will be able to test the lockup (or lack of).
They have teflon inner outer shields. SS inner/outer race + cage.
5x10x4mm
They sound like the muts nuts, so hopefully they should do the trick.
[edit]Lockup - as in the ball bearing pressing hard against the cage and races causing additional drag[/edit]
Regards
Rob
Quote from: MeggerMan on February 04, 2008, 06:09:34 PM
@All
I have some stainless steel ceramic racing bearings on order, so I will be able to test the lockup (or lack of).
They have teflon inner outer shields. SS inner/outer race + cage.
5x10x4mm
They sound like the muts nuts, so hopefully they should do the trick.
Regards
Rob
If by "lockup" you mean the AGW rotation of the stator I should say that its achieving is quite easy once the penetrating lubricating oil is applied. The problem is that even with AGW rotation of the stator the acceleration effect seen in the video doesn't show up. So, there's something more than the AGW latch that invokes the effect.
Quote from: mramos on February 04, 2008, 04:56:03 PM
I do not work for NASA, so I can not say what they sent into space this morning. Sure there is a crackpot website that will tell me if I look.
But I would think it was English if they did. If not, I wish they would save my tax dollars for something with a big bright flame. So NASA thinks the people in space do not speak English, but speak a tongue from this planet.. Cool. Glad they are on top of the Universe and have it all figured out.
So these charts are based on audio from a video file clip from the internet?
An Dean is the crazy one here... OK..
Off to find a good song and see if I can get a @nasa.gov email and "request form" so I can have this song I like sent up in the morning.
Some people took Close Encounters a little too close.. It was a movie..
Mramos,
Here is the official news release @ Nasa.gov:
NASA to Beam Beatles' 'Across the Universe' Into Space... http://www.nasa.gov/topics/universe/features/across_universe.html
My favorite version is sung by Fiona Apple. Check it out @YouTube.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 04, 2008, 05:55:49 PM
I?m using the bearings R188 recommended for the rotor. I think they will be worth playing with only after the rotor weight is fixed (which won?t happen tomorrow, as I expected; last I heard it?s gonna be on Thursday). Then, the question of rotor and stator kgauss profile is to be understood and so on.
Also, remember, Bruce and I were working on something different from what @alsetalokin did. We had N42?s on top of the stators and my stators were additionally somewhat fastened. So, when I get my rotor back I?ll have to send you soundtracks from the real replica for comparison with the soundtrack of the original.
Omni, thanks.
In the previous post I left a question to be answered, but I will answer it here instead.
...
The spectral analysis of Bruce's soundtrack shows only one mode, because his stators were not rotating. ;D
As for Al's 160 Hz mode rotor, perhaps shaving some mass from yours will lighten it up and affect it's acoustic signature. I look forward to your audio.
As well as the other tips I provided, if you could make sure that the microphone is
near BOTH the rotor and stator that would be great.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: mramos on February 04, 2008, 07:15:42 PM
And who is Al? If he has one why can we not see it?
Huh? we have seen it, this is the video that AL sent to CLaNZeR, I copied and brightened the image.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2pmrSYV4zFI
Hello all,
I ordered from Mike, today, two ABEC 7 bearings, in preparation for my correct sized and weight Rotor to arrive.
I have asked Mike, the bearing guy, to look at the photo of Al's bearing to see if he can identify it. It is a closed bearing from what I can see. Al said stainless steel. And being enclosed, it has lubricant already in it. So that solves the lubricant question in my mind.
Anyway, Mike agreed, and when my new bearings arrive, tomorrow or Wednesday, I will listen to what he has to say about them.
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: mramos on February 04, 2008, 07:15:42 PM
John Lennon, Imagine...
Uploading it now (sending it) to letussendyoursongintospace@nasa.gov. The toll free number did not work, but the link they emailed me I was able to buy 2000 acres on the moon, and it was cheap. Might get 2000 more tomorrow.. Mars is a little less, gonna order some of that too.
So anyone seen this magic motor, that does not degauss? Seen it spin up after a hard spin and gain speed and run for 7 hours?
And who is Al? If he has one why can we not see it? 7 hours running. That is impressive. MIB got him or OIL people made him rich.. OR IT DID NOT WORK?
Mramos,
LOL. I didn't know NASA was accepting uploads.
I hope they know what they're doing. I hope I never have to say. "Gort! Klaatu barada nikto!"
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 04, 2008, 06:48:05 PM
Quote from: mramos on February 04, 2008, 04:56:03 PM
I do not work for NASA, so I can not say what they sent into space this morning. Sure there is a crackpot website that will tell me if I look.
But I would think it was English if they did. If not, I wish they would save my tax dollars for something with a big bright flame. So NASA thinks the people in space do not speak English, but speak a tongue from this planet.. Cool. Glad they are on top of the Universe and have it all figured out.
So these charts are based on audio from a video file clip from the internet?
An Dean is the crazy one here... OK..
Off to find a good song and see if I can get a @nasa.gov email and "request form" so I can have this song I like sent up in the morning.
Some people took Close Encounters a little too close.. It was a movie..
Mramos,
Here is the official news release @ Nasa.gov:
NASA to Beam Beatles' 'Across the Universe' Into Space
... http://www.nasa.gov/topics/universe/features/across_universe.html
My favorite version is sung by Fiona Apple. Check it out @YouTube.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
In some distant future, aliens on a far distant world will gather around their version of SETI and thrill that a planet in the Sol system, long ago, beamed yet another message directly at them - and lament that, to this point, no-one has figured out how to decipher it. "They didn't send it to just anywhere, did they? They sent it to
us. They sent it centuries ago - how could they even know we'd be here!? It must
mean something! Every few years, a new message - and we fail the test..."
@meggerman
This is the first post that I have made to this and any other form so dare say that I will screw it up some how.
As I have followed the threads there is one glaring observation that I have not yet seen even after having read all the miles of script and dialog posted. It is rather obvious that the bearings are a real bugaboo. This application of ball bearings is pure torture to them plain and simple. Ball bearings are designed for rotary motion not oscillation, especially at the speeds required in this application. So?? what ever happened to the old low tech device, the bronze oil impregnated bearing? In the electrical industry they are the product of choice in large horsepower motors. Just ask an engineer to put a bearing with balls into a 4000 HP electric motor. I?d like to see the look on the face of the engineer who designs these large horse power motors when he hears that one. There is an amazing durability and reliability to these bearing IF they are kept oiled properly. I do understand that ?replication? is the goal but with all the variations to the basic theme why this one has not been explored is beyond me.
Cheers
j7
Quote from: j7 on February 05, 2008, 01:48:21 AM
@meggerman
This is the first post that I have made to this and any other form so dare say that I will screw it up some how.
As I have followed the threads there is one glaring observation that I have not yet seen even after having read all the miles of script and dialog posted. It is rather obvious that the bearings are a real bugaboo. This application of ball bearings is pure torture to them plain and simple. Ball bearings are designed for rotary motion not oscillation, especially at the speeds required in this application. So?? what ever happened to the old low tech device, the bronze oil impregnated bearing? In the electrical industry they are the product of choice in large horsepower motors. Just ask an engineer to put a bearing with balls into a 4000 HP electric motor. I?d like to see the look on the face of the engineer who designs these large horse power motors when he hears that one. There is an amazing durability and reliability to these bearing IF they are kept oiled properly. I do understand that ?replication? is the goal but with all the variations to the basic theme why this one has not been explored is beyond me.
Cheers
j7
Here Here j7
U are quite correct.
B.
Quote from: mramos on February 04, 2008, 04:56:03 PM
An Dean is the crazy one here... OK..
Some people took Close Encounters a little too close.. It was a movie..
Totally Fruity is the correct terminology !!
Quote from: blue_energy on February 05, 2008, 01:02:02 AM
In some distant future, aliens on a far distant world will gather around their version of SETI and thrill that a planet in the Sol system, long ago, beamed yet another message directly at them - and lament that, to this point, no-one has figured out how to decipher it. "They didn't send it to just anywhere, did they? They sent it to us. They sent it centuries ago - how could they even know we'd be here!? It must mean something! Every few years, a new message - and we fail the test..."
Funny you should mention the Sol system.
In his membership details for Fizzx.com Alsetalokin gives his location as Sol III. :o
Quote from: Grimer on February 05, 2008, 07:48:29 AM
Funny you should mention the Sol system.
In his membership details for Fizzx.com Alsetalokin gives his location as Sol III. :o
Sol III = Earth
@j7
Quote from: j7 on February 05, 2008, 01:48:21 AM
@meggerman
This is the first post that I have made to this and any other form so dare say that I will screw it up some how.
As I have followed the threads there is one glaring observation that I have not yet seen even after having read all the miles of script and dialog posted. It is rather obvious that the bearings are a real bugaboo. This application of ball bearings is pure torture to them plain and simple. Ball bearings are designed for rotary motion not oscillation, especially at the speeds required in this application. So?? what ever happened to the old low tech device, the bronze oil impregnated bearing? In the electrical industry they are the product of choice in large horsepower motors. Just ask an engineer to put a bearing with balls into a 4000 HP electric motor. I?d like to see the look on the face of the engineer who designs these large horse power motors when he hears that one. There is an amazing durability and reliability to these bearing IF they are kept oiled properly. I do understand that ?replication? is the goal but with all the variations to the basic theme why this one has not been explored is beyond me.
This is not a 4000HP motor, if only it were.. ;D
I think ball bearing races reduce contact surface compared to standard brass or bronze sleeve bearings, think of the amount of surface tension from even a thin lubricant on a bronze sleeve bearing....
We (Mum&Dad+family) use to have a 35ft. converted lifeboat that was on the Ocean Monache made from duralium, this had a phosphor bronze propeller shaft and greese packed glands/sleeves to stop the sea leaking in. Bearings in this case would have been a disaster.
So yes, if we scale this up then a bronze sleeve bearing may be the way to go, but we don't know if its the balls themselves that contribute towards the effect.
Regards
Rob
Quote from: robbie47 on February 05, 2008, 10:37:31 AM
Quote from: Grimer on February 05, 2008, 07:48:29 AM
Funny you should mention the Sol system.
In his membership details for Fizzx.com Alsetalokin gives his location as Sol III. :o
Sol III = Earth
;D Gosh. That just shows how out of touch I am. I just assumed it must be some planet in another Galaxy. :(
delete double post
Quote from: j7 on February 05, 2008, 01:48:21 AM
@meggerman
This is the first post that I have made to this and any other form so dare say that I will screw it up some how.
As I have followed the threads there is one glaring observation that I have not yet seen even after having read all the miles of script and dialog posted. It is rather obvious that the bearings are a real bugaboo. This application of ball bearings is pure torture to them plain and simple. Ball bearings are designed for rotary motion not oscillation, especially at the speeds required in this application. So?? what ever happened to the old low tech device, the bronze oil impregnated bearing? In the electrical industry they are the product of choice in large horsepower motors. Just ask an engineer to put a bearing with balls into a 4000 HP electric motor. I?d like to see the look on the face of the engineer who designs these large horse power motors when he hears that one. There is an amazing durability and reliability to these bearing IF they are kept oiled properly. I do understand that ?replication? is the goal but with all the variations to the basic theme why this one has not been explored is beyond me.
Cheers
j7
J7,
That's an excellent observation IMHO. I'm familiar with bearing noise from having worked on submarines, where noise is a big issue (i.e. "run silent run deep"). I previously suggested that the bearing in Al's rotor had a characteristic frequency of 160 Hz at 425 RPM, but I no longer see that to be the case, and so I'm reanalyzing the soundtrack now. I'm surprised everyone let me get away with that observation. Where are the critics when you really need them? ;D Analyzing the bearing noise is difficult due to the quality of the soundtrack, but I still expect to see at least two modes -- one for the high-spinning stator bearing and a second for the lower-spinning rotor, but . More later.
At the moment, however, bearing noise/vibration might actually be contributing to the "success" of Al's rotor. As you know, funny things happen to systems when they resonate, especially at certain frequencies.
Ultimately, I'm with you and would certainly like to see a WhipMag made from bronze bearings
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
This is not a 4000HP motor, if only it were.. ;D
I think ball bearing races reduce contact surface compared to standard brass or bronze sleeve bearings, think of the amount of surface tension from even a thin lubricant on a bronze sleeve bearing....
We (Mum&Dad+family) use to have a 35ft. converted lifeboat that was on the Ocean Monache made from duralium, this had a phosphor bronze propeller shaft and greese packed glands/sleeves to stop the sea leaking in. Bearings in this case would have been a disaster.
So yes, if we scale this up then a bronze sleeve bearing may be the way to go, but we don't know if its the balls themselves that contribute towards the effect.
Regards
Rob
[/quote]
@meggerman
Sometimes the forest is so hard to find because of all the @#%@! trees.
As the fever to create a working whipmag motor first kicked in, general consciences was that the interaction of the bearings and the magnets was somehow creating the effect observed. At this juncture the idea was to ?replicate the resonance? observed. We are seeing some audio annualizes data coming in. IMHO the real thing it shows is that we are getting a lot of binding or lockup going on. Different speeds etc for different bearings but defiantly momentary binding. That translates to a lot drag. How much is hard to say. I am only a field electrician I am woefully ignorant of the available instruments available in a well equipped lab. However I would venture a guess that even there one would be hard pressed to quantify the exact amount of drag. This binding exerts a drag so fleeting that the audio analysis maybe our best bet to really observe this.
Now about the surface tension. When a rightly functioning oil bearing is in action there is NO surface tension. The shaft is floating in an oil bath and does not come into contact with the bearing. Hard to believe, but if you were to walk up to this hypothetical 4000 HP motor and took your hand and begin to attempt to rotate the assembly, surprise of surprise it is easier to turn this shaft than one of lets say a 200 HP unit that uses a ball bearing. This in spite of the much greater mass and inertia associated the extra mass. The only losses are the oil molecules against oil molecules.
So it is my opinion, and only my opinion that the losses would be smaller in an oil bath than the surface contact points that keep binding the process up. It may also turn out to be the case that the old bearings that Al used are so worn out that they refuse to lockup. Hence the marbles in a lunch box sound.
Cheers
j7
Cheers
j7
@all
I am sorry that I failed mention that using bronze bearings will most likely require a very precise vertical mounting.
Cheers
j7
Quote from: Grimer on February 05, 2008, 12:09:39 PM
Sol III = Earth
;D Gosh. That just shows how out of touch I am. I just assumed it must be some planet in another Galaxy. :(
3rd Rock
@j7
Quote from: j7 on February 05, 2008, 02:18:52 PM
Cheers
j7
@all
I am sorry that I failed mention that using bronze bearings will most likely require a very precise vertical mounting.
Cheers
j7
Perhaps surface tension is the wrong word, large area liquid/fluid friction perhaps?
Found an article for you:
http://www.nmbtc.com/pdf/forum/ball.pdf
Here's an idea:
1. Put a bronze slab onto a large flat bronze metal slope cover in sewing machine oil and see how quick the slab drifts to the bottom.
2. Take a hardened steel ball bearing placed on a stainless steel slope coated in sewing machine oil and see how quick the ball rolls to the bottom.
Another question, how many cars or lorries that you know of use bush/sleeved bearing for the wheel hubs - OK a lot of the engine parts run on bush type bearings, but then they do live in a world of oil. ;)
So in summary ball vs sleeve, the ball wins on the friction side for small devices, thats not to say the same is true for a 100 tonne rotor.
But go for it, build a sleeve version stator and see if its an improvement.
Regards
Rob
.
I reanalyzed the FunkyJive enhanced audio from Al's first video. This time I performed a power spectrum analysis (see below).
... Q: If some one can explain why there is a 20dB increase at 172.3 Hz after the rotor accelerates, I'd appreciate it. ???
Note that as the rotor accelerates there is not a frequency shift at 172.3 Hz like there is at 839.8 Hz, which increases to 861.3 Hz after acceleration [@ very end of video]. The increase in 21.5 Hz corresponds to an increase of 3000 RPM [stator].
Comments are welcome.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@Yadaraf,
"Q: If some one can explain why there is a 20dB increase at 172.3 Hz after the rotor accelerates, I'd appreciate it. "
Could it be that that's the stator bearing after it's latched at AGW rotation? When I get my rotor back (on Thursday, hopefully) I'll send you an audio sample with the stator latched in AGW rotation (not difficult to achieve after applying penetrating lubricating oil) to see if there would be such characteristic frequency at all, and whether or not it would increase after the AGW latch.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 05, 2008, 05:59:13 PM
@Yadaraf,
"Q: If some one can explain why there is a 20dB increase at 172.3 Hz after the rotor accelerates, I'd appreciate it. "
Could it be that that's the stator bearing after it's latched at AGW rotation? When I get my rotor back (on Thursday, hopefully) I'll send you an audio sample with the stator latched in AGW rotation (not difficult to achieve after applying penetrating lubricating oil) to see if there would be such characteristic frequency at all, and whether or not it would increase after the AGW latch.
Omni,
I think you know this, but bear with me. The
left series of graphs is the result of sampling with
three stators rotating -- with the primary stator latched AGW @1700 RPM -- right before Al stops two of the stators. After Al stops two of the stators, the device accelerates, and both the rotor and stator increase in speed as observed in the freq shift from 839.8 Hz to 861.3 Hz. The right series of graphs is the result of sampling at the very end of Al's video.
During acceleration and the 839/861 freq shift, the
mode at 172.3 Hz remains fixed, but is amplified 20dB (a linear factor of 20/3 = 6X). I'm really scratching my head about this amplification. ??? Previously, I suggested that this "lower" mode corresponded to bearing noise fom the slower-spinning rotor, but I do not believe that any longer. Perhaps the material in the rotor or base plate is resonating like a speaker cone. Perhaps something else in the room is resonating
sympathetically.
The
amplification is very peculiar to me. :o
For the fun of it, you might bombard your device with 172.3 Hz (174 Hz?) from a signal generator. It "sounds" out there, I know. I'll reanalyze the audio [again] tomorrow.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Hmmm, I don't know where Al is from, but that frequency is awfully close to the 2nd harmonic of the 60 hz "hum" from the power grid here in the USA.
Have no clue as to why there would be an increase in amplitude either.
- just throwing it out there.
Quote from: JFK on February 05, 2008, 07:46:57 PM
Hmmm, I don't know where Al is from, but that frequency is awfully close to the 2nd harmonic of the 60 hz "hum" from the power grid here in the USA.
Have no clue as to why there would be an increase in amplitude either.
- just throwing it out there.
JFK,
Thanks. It's my understaing that the second harmonic of a 60 Hz hum is around 120 Hz. The third hamonic would be closer at 180 Hz.
Harmonic or "whatever" how and why does it get amplified 20dB? When the wife is away, raise your stereo's audio by 20dB.
Somehow Al's device is creating the
power to do that. ???
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Yadaraf,
Is it possible that the increase in power is caused when something which is behind the device and already spinning moves closer to the device (eg a fan with magnets on the blades)?
Yes, that is what I meant... I did not count 60hz as the first harmonic, because it is actually a base and not a harmonic.
Checked my search engine for that particular frequency, and the only hits are... well, here - http://www.altavista.com/web/results?itag=ody&q=%22172.3+hz%22&kgs=0&kls=0
I do have a program ( winaural ) to which I can input frequencies and listen to them on speaker, which I did do. that is why I suggested the harmonic idea... just sounds close to shortwave interaction/interference which I have heard in the past.
I am still at a loss for the amplification. ???
Yada, can you isolate the "buzz" which is predominant in the video and determine it's frequency ?
i.e. is it 50 or 60 hz ?
Quote from: JFK on February 05, 2008, 07:46:57 PM
Hmmm, I don't know where Al is from, but that frequency is awfully close to the 2nd harmonic of the 60 hz "hum" from the power grid here in the USA.
Have no clue as to why there would be an increase in amplitude either.
- just throwing it out there.
Al is located in Canada.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 05, 2008, 06:51:20 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 05, 2008, 05:59:13 PM
@Yadaraf,
"Q: If some one can explain why there is a 20dB increase at 172.3 Hz after the rotor accelerates, I'd appreciate it. "
Could it be that that's the stator bearing after it's latched at AGW rotation? When I get my rotor back (on Thursday, hopefully) I'll send you an audio sample with the stator latched in AGW rotation (not difficult to achieve after applying penetrating lubricating oil) to see if there would be such characteristic frequency at all, and whether or not it would increase after the AGW latch.
Omni,
I think you know this, but bear with me. The left series of graphs is the result of sampling with three stators rotating -- with the primary stator latched AGW @1700 RPM -- right before Al stops two of the stators. After Al stops two of the stators, the device accelerates, and both the rotor and stator increase in speed as observed in the freq shift from 839.8 Hz to 861.3 Hz. The right series of graphs is the result of sampling at the very end of Al's video.
During acceleration and the 839/861 freq shift, the mode at 172.3 Hz remains fixed, but is amplified 20dB (a linear factor of 20/3 = 6X). I'm really scratching my head about this amplification. ??? Previously, I suggested that this "lower" mode corresponded to bearing noise fom the slower-spinning rotor, but I do not believe that any longer. Perhaps the material in the rotor or base plate is resonating like a speaker cone. Perhaps something else in the room is resonating sympathetically.
The amplification is very peculiar to me. :o
For the fun of it, you might bombard your device with 172.3 Hz (174 Hz?) from a signal generator. It "sounds" out there, I know. I'll reanalyze the audio [again] tomorrow.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
You know, Yada, you are working with a wav file which has been slapped around pretty hard to remove most of the hum. That peak at 172.3 could just be an artifact of the original noise having been combined with a nearly-out-of-phase counter-noise. The increase in amplitude (while stranger) could be the same thing. I don't think that I'd make too much of any anomolies you find there, considering what it's been through.
Hello All.
I had the buzz at 60Hz, though with harmonics and parasitic noise artefacts well into the kHz region. I therefore had to use a comb filter with very tight notches to hit the spread-spectrum harmonics whilst preserving flatness as far as possible. I did apply high-pass with an fc of about 120Hz though, simply to clean up the lower frequencies and lift the audible detail.
Notwithstanding resonance that could well be real, it's worth mentioning that audio AGC was in evidence in the video (you can hear the hum change volume - particularly in the earlier part of the video), along with probable resonant mic/environment characteristics - both potentially contributory to a non-linear relationship between frequency and amplitude that could be contributing to peaks unexplainable by other means.
For this reason professional acoustic recordings are made with very expensive, spectrally-flat wideband mics that are purpose-designed to minimise resonant characteristics of this nature, though cheap mics (possibly camcorder mounted) don't really cut it at-all.
+20dB gain mid-band is rather a lot though, so very possibly something else going on to explain this.
All the best,
FunkyJive
Hi everybody
Just signed in and tough I'd post some of my toughs about this topic
First let me to introduce myself.
It' s just in the last few mounts that I got more interested in alternative energy technologies and related projects and devices.
Surfing the net to get some basic knowledge about this subject, offcourse I've got intrigued by the controversial concept of overunity as much as I got interested by several very interesting related devices and relative patents.
Offcourse Al?s first video got me very interested , and in the attempt to make my own mind about what he showed us in that video I'm experimenting whit my two replication rigs , but whit no much success , only AGW locking Whit almost all different combinations between the two rotors ( of different weight ) mounting different sets of rotor's magnets ( still waiting for N35 ? x ? ? cylinders mags for rotor ) and many different stators along whit the K&J R834DIA and different dumper positioning.
While I was waiting for the K&J's mags , some days ago I had loads of time to think about the stator's bearings issue.
I focalized on that since Al said that only whit the right combination of tree out of fiveteen stators he got the rig to perform as shown in his first vid, and that he imagined the cause to possibly hide in the different bearings chosen only for some of the stators Assembly .
Wandering about this subject I tried to visualize what was possibly happening in the bearing while the device was operating in AGW mode ,and exploring the innumerable variables interacting in the apparently achieved anomaly, between them I pictured something that perhaps have no way to be possibly happening in reality, but since I have practically no nowledge in magnetics and consequently in ferromagnetic materials permeability and how fast a magnetic field can permeate a ferromagnetic bearing, I wanted to try to write down this vision of mine in the hope that someone whit good knowledge about magnetism could give me some clue about that.
Between the other variables that I took in account , there is one in particular where I guess my imagination went pretty wild .
what I'd like to know is if there is any chance that something like what I've imagined and tried to describe can really happen in reality .
attached to this post there is a copy of the original topic I posted at Clanzers on overunitydotorgdotuk
Please let me know what you think about it .
And good luck everybody whit your projects
Cheers
Andrea
Quote from: AndreaGanora on February 05, 2008, 09:17:58 PM
Hi everybody
Just signed in and tough I'd post some of my toughs about this topic
First let me to introduce myself.
It' s just in the last few mounts that I got more interested in alternative energy technologies and related projects and devices.
Surfing the net to get some basic knowledge about this subject, offcourse I've got intrigued by the controversial concept of overunity as much as I got interested by several very interesting related devices and relative patents.
Offcourse Al?s first video got me very interested , and in the attempt to make my own mind about what he showed us in that video I'm experimenting whit my two replication rigs , but whit no much success , only AGW locking Whit almost all different combinations between the two rotors ( of different weight ) mounting different sets of rotor's magnets ( still waiting for N35 ? x ? ? cylinders mags for rotor ) and many different stators along whit the K&J R834DIA and different dumper positioning.
While I was waiting for the K&J's mags , some days ago I had loads of time to think about the stator's bearings issue.
I focalized on that since Al said that only whit the right combination of tree out of fiveteen stators he got the rig to perform as shown in his first vid, and that he imagined the cause to possibly hide in the different bearings chosen only for some of the stators Assembly .
Wandering about this subject I tried to visualize what was possibly happening in the bearing while the device was operating in AGW mode ,and exploring the innumerable variables interacting in the apparently achieved anomaly, between them I pictured something that perhaps have no way to be possibly happening in reality, but since I have practically no nowledge in magnetics and consequently in ferromagnetic materials permeability and how fast a magnetic field can permeate a ferromagnetic bearing, I wanted to try to write down this vision of mine in the hope that someone whit good knowledge about magnetism could give me some clue about that.
Between the other variables that I took in account , there is one in particular where I guess my imagination went pretty wild .
what I'd like to know is if there is any chance that something like what I've imagined and tried to describe can really happen in reality .
attached to this post there is a copy of the original topic I posted at Clanzers on overunitydotorgdotuk
Please let me know what you think about it .
And good luck everybody whit your projects
Cheers
Andrea
Ciao, Andrea!
I saw your post at CLaNZeR's a short while ago, but at that time, I couldn't wrap my brain about your theory. I will be glad to try again. :D
There's an interesting book (PDF) you might read:
The Secret World of Magnets.... http://www.scribd.com/doc/34317/Spintronics-The-Secret-World-of-Magnets-2006-by-Howard-Johnson
Welcome to OU.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
.
RE 172.3 Hz
Thanks for the feedback :)
RunningBear, I think you were suggesting [to JFK] that Al lives in Canada, which is 120/60 Hz.
Blue, I get your drift concerning mashed files, so tomorrow I'll analyze the original [dark] YouTube video. I quickly analyzed it a moment ago, but I'll need a clearer head. Initially I see the same mode at 172.3 Hz, and it appears to increase 15 dB or so. Something is there to be certain, but read on ...
FunkyJive, I like your point about AGC! Anyone who wants to have their audio analyzed should be certain to disable AGC. Good point.
Omni, do you copy on the AGC?
Lastly, I'm also a gearhead at heart, and appreciate that "Power = Area Under The Curve." I'm thinking now that although there was an increase in the amplitude of the frequency at 172.3 Hz, the actual power didn't change, because the side frequencies (e.g. 170 Hz, 176 Hz, etc) collapsed into the fundamental of 172.3 Hz during acceleration (CoE). The area under the two curves -- @1700 and @4700 -- might be the same. More tomorrow.
Please keep me in check. Analyzing the audio is proving to be tricky, and I don't want to stretch too far with my assumptions.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
In this video you can see the high amplitude as red, and how it appears and tracks up to the low 170's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7M3nasCdWI
Quote from: ken_nyus on February 05, 2008, 10:56:50 PM
In this video you can see the high amplitude as red, and how it appears and tracks up to the low 170's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7M3nasCdWI
Ken,
Thanks much. Nice analysis. I have to admit I didn't pay attention to it a few days ago -- before I began looking at the 172.3 Hz phenomenon. In particular, I like that the peak frequency levels off at the
primary Solfeggio frequency of 174 Hz, which is very cool for a self-sustaining device. 8)
While this is in close agreement with the power spectrum analysis, the Peak Freq video shows something else at about 10 second into the video: at 1700 PRM [3 stators] there is a
characteristic frequency of 144 Hz. From there it rises to 174 Hz during acceleration. The delta is 30 Hz. I didn't observe this frequency shift in the power spectrum analysis. I'll try something else tomorrow. This begs the question: If 174 Hz is significant [albeit a stretch for some], is 144 Hz significant?
Q1: In the power spectrum charts, what do you make of the frequency shift from 839.3 to 861.3 [21 Hz delta]? Q2: Has the audio in the "Peak Freq" video been processed/filtered at all?(Note: I don't see how the 839/861 shift can be a harmonic of the 144/172 shift.)
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: ken_nyus on February 05, 2008, 10:56:50 PM
In this video you can see the high amplitude as red, and how it appears and tracks up to the low 170's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7M3nasCdWI
.
For those following the "frequency" saga, see below. We have independent corroboation, but more to do IMHO.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
.
Ken,
Q: Can you generate a similar plot for the frequencies between 839.3 and 861.3?
I'll try to do something similar. Thanks.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
I don't understand all this talk of frequencies. Are you guys trying to work out if another motor can be heard "beneath" the audio of the rotor and stators?
The plot thickens!!
Quote from: baobab68 on February 06, 2008, 02:13:41 AM
I don't understand all this talk of frequencies. Are you guys trying to work out if another motor can be heard "beneath" the audio of the rotor and stators?
The plot thickens!!
Don't think so. Most of us here are working unassuming, trying to figure out how to replicate the device as close to the original as possible.
.
RE 144 Hz
RANT Alert! Proceed with extreme caution!
You're either gonna love this or hate this.
Recall that Al's stators were spinning at 1700 RPM before accelerating to 4700 RPM. Recall that we've analyzed Al's audio and determined that his device produces a characteristic frequency of ~144 Hz at 1700 RPM and ~174 Hz at 4700 RPM. I reported a finding on the significance of 174.
While "144" is a very significant sacred number (it's all throughout the bible), I found something else that made me jump out my chair.
Here's something to ponder: ::)
... Q: What is the atomic mass of Neodymium?
OK .. I'll tell you ... it's 144 (for the unstable isotope). The relative mass is 145. Freaky. :o
There might be more to it, but I need some high frequency data [from Ken?].
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@Yadaraf,
That's just a fortuitous coincidence.
Quote from: baobab68 on February 06, 2008, 02:13:41 AM
I don't understand all this talk of frequencies. Are you guys trying to work out if another motor can be heard "beneath" the audio of the rotor and stators?
The plot thickens!!
baobab68, :D
When bearings rotate they make a noise -- bearing chatter. Often, spectral analysis is used to determine if a bearing is worn out and needs to be changed. We're using bearing noise slightly different here -- sort of in a reverse-engineering effort.
Basically, Al's machine produced a few characteristic noises, which we have quantified. If we intend to build a device like Al's, then it's logical to assume that our device should "sound" like Al's. For example, the fact that Al's device produces 144 Hz at 1700 RPM probably tells us something about the bearings that we should use. As a minimum, I think it provides a target to shoot for.
My background is both scientific and "non-scientific." If you watch LOST, I am 50% Jack Shepard and 50% John Locke, which is why I seem to go off on tangents. Because no one can explain "why the device spins," however, and because we live in interesting times, my "tangents" might be pieces to this very strange puzzle. Who can say?
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 06, 2008, 03:28:26 AM
@Yadaraf,
That's just a fortuitous coincidence.
Omni,
You've read my posts. I'm "out there." I just bought an asbestos suit today, for use when I'm taken to the stake to be buned. ;D
I've been an engineer and scientist long enough to know that science doesn't have all the answers. Just look at the latest discovery in which scientists were able to detect a photon at the target before it left the source. Physicists acknowledge that they don't understand what's going on at the quantum level -- it's "magic."
I think the WhipMag uses magic. :D
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Yada - Make sure it sounds correct? that makes sense, I guess.
I just look forward to the day when I see another YouTube video from Al or one of the replicators. And independent corroboration from a reputable source.
Something like this, maybe:
http://www.thestar.com/sciencetech/Technology/article/300042
I checked, Markus Zahn is real too:
http://lees.mit.edu/lees/zahn_m.htm
yadaraf, i was going to post how silly it is to make any significance out of rpm when minutes are so arbitrary. its a fraction of a fraction of how long the earth takes to rotate. to say how silly it was i was going to post what fraction of the earths rotation a minute is. but then, oops. 1 earth rotation = 1440 minutes.
theres that darn number again ;)
Quote from: baobab68 on February 06, 2008, 04:07:06 AM
Yada - Make sure it sounds correct? that makes sense, I guess.
I just look forward to the day when I see another YouTube video from Al or one of the replicators. And independent corroboration from a reputable source.
Something like this, maybe:
http://www.thestar.com/sciencetech/Technology/article/300042
baobab68 ,
Here's an excellent video by CLaNZeR. It illustrates the problem with
bearing noise. Note what he says about the rotor.
... http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSBearingnoise.wmv
Poke around his site. He's got a lot of excellent stuff.
Thanks for the link to the Perepiteia. You might check the Steorn forum as well.
... http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60276&page=1
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: evil-doer on February 06, 2008, 04:16:51 AM
yadaraf, i was going to post how silly it is to make any significance out of rpm when minutes are so arbitrary. its a fraction of a fraction of how long the earth takes to rotate. to say how silly it was i was going to post what fraction of the earths rotation a minute is. but then, oops. 1 earth rotation = 1440 minutes.
theres that darn number again ;)
evil-doer,
Nice one. That number [144] occurs so often its frightening. It's probably got a connection to Kevin Bacon. ;D
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@Yadaraf,
OK, now since we're into fortuitous coincidences, I hope you didn't forget that the diameter of the rotor is 144mm. This, of course, means nothing but is fun to mention in the context of the conversation.
Omg! and theres 12 months in a year and 12x12 = 144...come on guys!
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 05, 2008, 09:52:15 PM
Quote from: AndreaGanora on February 05, 2008, 09:17:58 PM
Hi everybody
Between the other variables that I took in account , there is one in particular where I guess my imagination went pretty wild .
what I'd like to know is if there is any chance that something like what I've imagined and tried to describe can really happen in reality .
Cheers
Andrea
Ciao, Andrea!
I saw your post at CLaNZeR's a short while ago, but at that time, I couldn't wrap my brain about your theory. I will be glad to try again. :D
There's an interesting book (PDF) you might read: The Secret World of Magnets.
... http://www.scribd.com/doc/34317/Spintronics-The-Secret-World-of-Magnets-2006-by-Howard-Johnson
Welcome to OU.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Thanks very mutch Yada for the welcoming and for the link , I' ll read it for shure .
Meanwhile since i understand there are several very skilled engeneers and shientists between this forum's users , if you yada ;D or one of you guys would feel like having a look at my teory and let me at least know if my toughts are absolutly unlikely to happen by laws of magnetism I'll really greatly appreciate .
here is the complete file :
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3871.0;attach=17276 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3871.0;attach=17276)
And the following is the part of my original topic that I'd like to have an opinion about from someone that knows abouth the laws of magnetism .
Thanks everybody and sorry to bother you whit this request ::)
-------------------------
?
Magnetized Bearing?s magnetic vortex and delayed tailing effect , here goes the wildest of my views :o
The bearing, beyng ( normally ) made of ferromagnetic material , gets magnetized by the stator?s ring magnet , beyng in his immediate proximity if not directly attouched to the bearing?s outher ring metal surface.
If we immagine Al?s stator?s assembly while the device is not running , we?ll see that the ring magnet and magnetised bearing , sitting motionless on top of each other are practically both diametrically magnetized in two immaginary halves that we will call north half and south half.
( now start the part of my hypotesis where I whould really like the help of a 3D animation to help me explain it as I see it, but unfortunatly I never used any 3d animation program so I?ll try to give it a go whit words)
While the Stator?s ring magnet and the outher bearing?s ring are held steadly together by the derlin tubing , the bearing?s inner ring is fixed to the device?s bottom plate by the fixing screw, therefore, if now we immagine the stator while starting to rotate clochwhise ( we will take in achount for istance the south half of the assembly ) we will have the south half of the bearing outher ring that , beyng solidly attached to the south half of the ring magnet will stay of south polarity.
The bearing? s ball?s that where sitting in the south half of the bearing will also follow the stator? s rotation in the same direction , but by having a circular motion that will run on an inner circumference respect to the bearings outher ring , will be kind of left behind and therefore will have to gradually change their polarity by beyng overcomed by the entry of the north pole half of the assembly permeating the space area where they are now still sitting and consequently changing their polarity from south to north .
This offcourse will happen simoultaneously for the bearing's balls of both south and north halves of the stator?s assembly , them beyng simoltaneusly overcomed and changed in polarity by the upcoming opposite magnetic half of the assembly , creating in my immagination a sort of picture that resemble the double spiraling of the galaxy vortex :o ::) and causing a sort of magnetic teiling effect that will follow each magnetic half causing a sort of delay in the magnetic interpolation of rotor/stator?s magnetic fields .
Each stator's magnetic half , by approaching this socalled delayed magnetic tail left behind by the oposite half will possibly be part of a slightely uneven situation that could cause the infinitesimal source of extra push that gives that little kick to the rotor or that create a sort of pulsation or both ,that will cause the increase in the rpms and / or who knows what else :o
This is just a vision, but that could be anyway of some interest if prooved to be happening for real , : ) hehehe
Wow that whas hard to try to put down in words , and I hope is at least somehow understandable .
Now I need to say that I know little about magnetics and I don? t even know if what I immagined there is ever even posssible to occur in reality, how fast the magnetic field could permeate the bearings balls and change their polarity in such fast alternate and pulsatyng way is shure not whitin my very little knowledge ,but I wanted to espress these toughts of mine anyway .
Please point out if this supposition is really far out or what you think about it , or if by any magnetic laws something like that could never possibly occur .
P.S.
In fact in Al's tird video the strobo pics shows a perfect sincro betwen rotor and stator positions , but if the stator would have such a slightely displaced field like the one in my hipotesis, it could somehow be part of the phenomenon
@AndreaGanora, that is an intrigueing and complex theory, however a few pages back, I think we determined that Al's balls are ceramic. ;D
< pictures a bearing within a bearing with ceramic races and magnetized balls running itself > [ someone wanna do the math on that one ? ] :D
@All,
I'd like to clarify something while waiting for my rotor to arrive (hopefully) tomorrow. The rigs I'm working now have the bearings in the rotor. However, it turned out that @alsetalokin's first video was done with a rig having the bearings in the base the shaft immovably attached to the rotor. Does anyone have more details about that? Drawings, dxf files? I know @alsetalokin appoved Jason's drawings with bearings in the rotor but still it's good to know what the actual construction in the video is. That's the only construction that worked, isn't it?
Quote from: Omnibus on February 06, 2008, 04:33:03 AM
@Yadaraf,
OK, now since we're into fortuitous coincidences, I hope you didn't forget that the diameter of the rotor is 144mm. This, of course, means nothing but is fun to mention in the context of the conversation.
Omni,
You know, I have not really looked over the specs related to this device. Your observation about the rotor diameter is great! I completely missed it.
To me the WhipMag coincidences border on "ironic" as well as "fortuitous." I hope you don't get hammered for encouraging me, but now I have to reconsider the dimensions (sacred?) of the WhipMag. I'm already considering the significance of an octagonal rotor, but from what I gather it's not a popular figure in nature. The number "8" however is interesting:
...
"The shape of the 8 symbol, known as the Lemniscate, depicts the rhythm of energy that flows around and within two polar opposites. "There's an interesting book called "A Little Book of Coincidences," by John Martineau.
... http://www.halexandria.org/dward116.htm (http://www.halexandria.org/dward116.htm) (CAUTION: "OutThere" Alert!)
I'm not brave enough to post a link to sacred geometry in quantum realm -- atoms, electrons, spins, etc. ;D
Back to science ... today I plan to study the audio again, focusing on the peaks around 850 Hz. Furthermore, we haven't accurately determined the frequencies near 174 and 144, and I'll be working on that as well. Currently we have only "eye-balled" values from Ken's Peak Freq analysis video, which is very good. (I had a plumbing leak the other day, so I've been stuck at home with the plumbers and have time to kill. Still haven't gotten my Lego parts.)
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 06, 2008, 11:23:43 AM
@All,
I'd like to clarify something while waiting for my rotor to arrive (hopefully) tomorrow. The rigs I'm working now have the bearings in the rotor. However, it turned out that @alsetalokin's first video was done with a rig having the bearings in the base the shaft immovably attached to the rotor. Does anyone have more details about that? Drawings, dxf files? I know @alsetalokin appoved Jason's drawings with bearings in the rotor but still it's good to know what the actual construction in the video is. That's the only construction that worked, isn't it?
Omni,
Al's second video -- the one where he detaches the rotor and throws it away -- shows that the rotor bearing is part of the base (I believe). It seemed similar to a good quality record player turntable that lifts off the motor spindle. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
hee hee, talk about way out there, 144/2 = 72/2 = 36/2 = 18/2 = 9.. 9x16=144.. Ed Leedskalnin ( of coral castle fame ) called his apparatus his "sweet 16".
notice 4 divisions, and 4 concentrations of magnetic poles in the rotor....
RE: rotor being 144 mm in diameter.
If the stators are 9mm ( 144/16 ) in diameter, we may be on to something. ;D
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 06, 2008, 12:24:56 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 06, 2008, 11:23:43 AM
@All,
I'd like to clarify something while waiting for my rotor to arrive (hopefully) tomorrow. The rigs I'm working now have the bearings in the rotor. However, it turned out that @alsetalokin's first video was done with a rig having the bearings in the base the shaft immovably attached to the rotor. Does anyone have more details about that? Drawings, dxf files? I know @alsetalokin appoved Jason's drawings with bearings in the rotor but still it's good to know what the actual construction in the video is. That's the only construction that worked, isn't it?
Omni,
Al's second video -- the one where he detaches the rotor and throws it away -- shows that the rotor bearing is part of the base (I believe). It seemed similar to a good quality record player turntable that lifts off the motor spindle. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
So it was not misleading of him to confirm the specs knowing full well that the rotor assembly was completely wrong ?
What a merry dance this piper leads ...hmmm
Quote from: Omnibus on February 06, 2008, 11:23:43 AM
@All,
I'd like to clarify something while waiting for my rotor to arrive (hopefully) tomorrow. The rigs I'm working now have the bearings in the rotor. However, it turned out that @alsetalokin's first video was done with a rig having the bearings in the base the shaft immovably attached to the rotor. Does anyone have more details about that? Drawings, dxf files? I know @alsetalokin appoved Jason's drawings with bearings in the rotor but still it's good to know what the actual construction in the video is. That's the only construction that worked, isn't it?
That's a good point, O. I don't have it in front of me but I think I remember him saying that he took an old reel-to-reel tape machine apart to get the spindle and bearing combination. The magnets in your rotor are pretty far away from your bearings though.
On the other hand, if you have ever played around with a reel-to-reel tape recorder, those bearings are
tight. There's no clatter in them at all and no opportunity for shaft wobble. It's hard to imagine that this design difference would be so significant. Still... his apparently works and no-one elses does, and this is a difference.
<later...> OK, I couldn't leave it like that. I did the search again.
Here, someone other than Al discusses the rotor shaft:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=7#Item_21
Here, Al talks about his rotor as of Jan. 2nd (no discussion of r-to-r tape shaft):
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=6#Item_49
So... what is he using? I don't know.
By the way, at the time of his original 'hypothetical' (his words) discovery, his rotor would spin about 2 minutes on it's own without stator involvement.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 06, 2008, 12:24:56 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 06, 2008, 11:23:43 AM
@All,
I'd like to clarify something while waiting for my rotor to arrive (hopefully) tomorrow. The rigs I'm working now have the bearings in the rotor. However, it turned out that @alsetalokin's first video was done with a rig having the bearings in the base the shaft immovably attached to the rotor. Does anyone have more details about that? Drawings, dxf files? I know @alsetalokin appoved Jason's drawings with bearings in the rotor but still it's good to know what the actual construction in the video is. That's the only construction that worked, isn't it?
Omni,
Al's second video -- the one where he detaches the rotor and throws it away -- shows that the rotor bearing is part of the base (I believe). It seemed similar to a good quality record player turntable that lifts off the motor spindle. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@ Onmi
Al utilized an old Reel to Reel machine spool for the bearing support that he scrounged for some back alley.
Good luck on finding out what specific machine that was. In my Ver #2 Device U can relate the support concept.
I have been saying more or less all along that Al's the second version.... the one represented on the Video's was the only one that worked to my knowledge. For some reason it seem that the group has blinder on when relating to this. <grin>
Regards
Bill
Based on a previous video where someone is holding magnets on the stator using the hand and he can get acceleration (as he says) everytime, I think this site here would explain why: http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/2magpup.htm
Fausto.
Pretty soon you guys are going to find that
4 + 8 + 15 + 16 + 23 + 42 = 108
Yadaraf i think a Geiger counter would be a better investment then an asbestos suit; at least for this experiment.
Quote from: mikeytown2 on February 06, 2008, 03:07:03 PM
Pretty soon you guys are going to find that
4 + 8 + 15 + 16 + 23 + 42 = 108
Care to expound on your theory ?
Didn't think so. ;)
Quote from: JFK on February 06, 2008, 03:11:53 PM
Quote from: mikeytown2 on February 06, 2008, 03:07:03 PM
Pretty soon you guys are going to find that
4 + 8 + 15 + 16 + 23 + 42 = 108
Care to expound on your theory ?
Didn't think so. ;)
Allow me to explain ... before you get LOST ..
Scroll down to the "Numbers" section:
... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology_of_Lost
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 06, 2008, 03:27:31 PM
Quote from: JFK on February 06, 2008, 03:11:53 PM
Quote from: mikeytown2 on February 06, 2008, 03:07:03 PM
Pretty soon you guys are going to find that
4 + 8 + 15 + 16 + 23 + 42 = 108
Care to expound on your theory ?
Didn't think so. ;)
Allow me to explain ... before you get LOST ..
Scroll down to the "Numbers" section:
... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology_of_Lost
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Thanks Yada, my appologies Mikey.
Quote from: vipond50 on February 06, 2008, 02:19:06 PM
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 06, 2008, 12:24:56 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 06, 2008, 11:23:43 AM
@All,
I'd like to clarify something while waiting for my rotor to arrive (hopefully) tomorrow. The rigs I'm working now have the bearings in the rotor. However, it turned out that @alsetalokin's first video was done with a rig having the bearings in the base the shaft immovably attached to the rotor. Does anyone have more details about that? Drawings, dxf files? I know @alsetalokin appoved Jason's drawings with bearings in the rotor but still it's good to know what the actual construction in the video is. That's the only construction that worked, isn't it?
Omni,
Al's second video -- the one where he detaches the rotor and throws it away -- shows that the rotor bearing is part of the base (I believe). It seemed similar to a good quality record player turntable that lifts off the motor spindle. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@ Onmi
Al utilized an old Reel to Reel machine spool for the bearing support that he scrounged for some back alley.
Good luck on finding out what specific machine that was. In my Ver #2 Device U can relate the support concept.
I have been saying more or less all along that Al's the second version.... the one represented on the Video's was the only one that worked to my knowledge. For some reason it seem that the group has blinder on when relating to this. <grin>
Regards
Bill
Omni,
I've attached some pics of Vipond's rotor, which seems to best resemble Al's -- at least the rotor that Al trashed. It's still not clear to me if Al was trashing the good rotor or a previous version.
Vipond, I hope you don't mind.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
IMPORTANT NOTE: The below picture is the second and newer of two rotor designs.
Please see: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg75716.html#msg75716.
More of Viponds rotor.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
IMPORTANT NOTE: The below picture is the second and newer of two rotor designs.
Please see: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg75716.html#msg75716
.
@ Fausto
That person was me. And I have moved to using rubber bands to hold the stators. ;D
Youtube guys think I am holding a drill in my unseen hand. LOL Jeesh I can't win. No wonder Al got so bummed.
@ JFK
Al never said ceramic bearings. Al said STAINLESS STEEL. People assumed ceramic. And he did not just mean the housing.
@ Omni
Al had gotten the device to work as we have, with the bearings in the rotor. He went to the newer setup with the bearings in the base, for greater stability. It was easier for Jason to design the drawing according to the original Al design. As Bill mentioned, in the newer design, it was bearing salvaged from an old reel to reel. Good luck finding that one.
Please try not to let some here confuse. A lot of talk, making assumptive arguments sound like fact.
@ All
Has anyone seen this post by Harvey at Steorn:
http://urad.net/forums/WhiPMag/Bearing%20Permutations.xls
Cheers all,
Bruce
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 06, 2008, 03:59:46 PM
@ Fausto
That person was me. And I have moved to using rubber bands to hold the stators. ;D
Youtube guys think I am holding a drill in my unseen hand. LOL Jeesh I can't win. No wonder Al got so bummed.
@ JFK
Al never said ceramic bearings. Al said STAINLESS STEEL. People assumed ceramic. And he did not just mean the housing.
@ Omni
Al had gotten the device to work as we have, with the bearings in the rotor. He went to the newer setup with the bearings in the base, for greater stability. It was easier for Jason to design the drawing according to the original Al design. As Bill mentioned, in the newer design, it was bearing salvaged from an old reel to reel. Good luck finding that one.
Please try not to let some here confuse. A lot of talk, making assumptive arguments sound like fact.
@ All
Has anyone seen this post by Harvey at Steorn:
http://urad.net/forums/WhiPMag/Bearing%20Permutations.xls
Cheers all,
Bruce
Bruce,
Thanks for clearing up the issue concerning Al's two rotors. In Al's first video then, the red pully must be hiding the retaining nut.
Q: Should I leave Vipond's pics up or are they confusing the issue?Cheers,
Yada..
.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 06, 2008, 03:27:31 PM
Quote from: JFK on February 06, 2008, 03:11:53 PM
Quote from: mikeytown2 on February 06, 2008, 03:07:03 PM
Pretty soon you guys are going to find that
4 + 8 + 15 + 16 + 23 + 42 = 108
Care to expound on your theory ?
Didn't think so. ;)
Allow me to explain ... before you get LOST ..
Scroll down to the "Numbers" section:
... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology_of_Lost
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
And - when you multiply them together, they equal 7,418,880 - which, in binary, is: 111 0001 0011 0100 0000 0000.
Add the ones together
as if they were base ten and you get:
7 - the universal lucky number.
...coincidence?
@Bruce_TPU
hey Bruce, now that you are using the robber bands, is it making the any difference? Based on the JNL website info I think that what is happening is that when the rotor passes the magnets over the stator the effect of "shooting" (as JNL explains) is happening but to be effective for repitability it is necessary that the stator vibrates enough so that the "shooting" goes toward the same direction where the rotor is rotating. Which means that as the rotor magnets approaches the stator both magnets are in synch and when they are front-to-front (perpendicular to each other) the shooting happens BUT if as the shooting happens the stator moves just a bit toward the direction of the rotor it will in effect shoot the rotor even further (as if one is just taping the rotor with a finger).
With the robber bands I would predict that the acceleration effect you perceived should be increased if the resonance of the vibrating stator (without the AGW, in other words, non-rotating stator) is in agreement with the speed of the rotor. Does it make any sence?
I am in the believe that the AGW locking is irrelevant to the whole process.
Fausto.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 06, 2008, 04:12:32 PM
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 06, 2008, 03:59:46 PM
@ Fausto
That person was me. And I have moved to using rubber bands to hold the stators. ;D
Youtube guys think I am holding a drill in my unseen hand. LOL Jeesh I can't win. No wonder Al got so bummed.
@ JFK
Al never said ceramic bearings. Al said STAINLESS STEEL. People assumed ceramic. And he did not just mean the housing.
@ Omni
Al had gotten the device to work as we have, with the bearings in the rotor. He went to the newer setup with the bearings in the base, for greater stability. It was easier for Jason to design the drawing according to the original Al design. As Bill mentioned, in the newer design, it was bearing salvaged from an old reel to reel. Good luck finding that one.
Please try not to let some here confuse. A lot of talk, making assumptive arguments sound like fact.
@ All
Has anyone seen this post by Harvey at Steorn:
http://urad.net/forums/WhiPMag/Bearing%20Permutations.xls
Cheers all,
Bruce
Bruce,
Thanks for clearing up the issue concerning Al's two rotors. In Al's first video then, the red pully must be hiding the retaining nut.
Q: Should I leave Vipond's pics up or are they confusing the issue?
Cheers,
Yada..
.
@Yada
The first Video with the small red Pulley was the second version design. Meaning it was the press on rotor config or the rotor bearing support assembly was mounted to the base plate.
Boy folks need to review the information or take heed to a review before posting. Sorry for the small rant, but this will confuse most of the readers or skimmers of these posts.
Best Regards
Bill
@ Vipond
Thanks for clearing up the rotor issue. Believe it or not I've been following this saga since December, but it's easy to lose track unless you are building the thing.
... Q: Did I confuse the issue by posting pics of your rotor, and should I remove them?
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 06, 2008, 06:00:34 PM
@ Vipond
Thanks for clearing up the rotor issue. Believe it or not I've been following this saga since December, but it's easy to lose track unless you are building the thing.
... Q: Did I confuse the issue by posting pics of your rotor, and should I remove them?
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Hi Yada
Enjoy your work relating to the acoustics, believe there is some excellent info hidden in the data.
As far as the Pic's, it would be up to the rest of the crew as to weather it would be confusing. I recommend to identify (easily) so the two devices are keep separated for clearity.
Just my thoughts
Please keep up the excellent work
Regards
Bill
@vipond50,
So, the rotor weight 258g we are aiming at includes the HDPE part, the magnets and the piece that holds the shaft. These 258g, however, do not include the weight of the shaft and the weight of that red piece we see in the video on top of the rotor. Seems the actual weight of the rotor in the video is greater than 258g. Exactly how much greater is a mystery.
At this point I'm more concerned about the exact weights, especially of the rotor, and about the kgauss of the fields acting. The bearing issue seems a somewhat side issue--the over 200s rundown time being easily achievable with the bearings in the rotor and the AGW not difficult to lock especially when applying penetrating lubricant.
Quote from: vipond50 on February 06, 2008, 06:41:46 PM
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 06, 2008, 06:00:34 PM
@ Vipond
Thanks for clearing up the rotor issue. Believe it or not I've been following this saga since December, but it's easy to lose track unless you are building the thing.
... Q: Did I confuse the issue by posting pics of your rotor, and should I remove them?
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Hi Yada
Enjoy your work relating to the acoustics, believe there is some excellent info hidden in the data.
As far as the Pic's, it would be up to the rest of the crew as to weather it would be confusing. I recommend to identify (easily) so the two devices are keep separated for clearity.
Just my thoughts
Please keep up the excellent work
Regards
Bill
Vipond50,
Glad you liked the acoustic analysis. I agree that Al's audio provides some very objective data. If nothing else, from it we have learned the importance of microphone placement, AGC, silence, etc. for creating a soundtrack that will be analyzed later. :D
Concerning my previous post and the pics, I placed a disclaimer at the bottom of the posts along with a reference to your recent post for an explanation.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: JFK on February 06, 2008, 09:18:45 AM
@AndreaGanora, that is an intrigueing and complex theory, however a few pages back, I think we determined that Al's balls are ceramic. ;D
< pictures a bearing within a bearing with ceramic races and magnetized balls running itself > [ someone wanna do the math on that one ? ] :D
@JFK
Apart from jokes and from my
"Magnetized Bearing?s magnetic vortex and delayed tailing effect" wild teory :), I've based my two actual replication's rigs mainly on the infos collected in a pdf file downloadable from OSPMMdotORG where are included lods of infos posted mainly by Al plus some others on various wipmag treads over at steorn and elsewhere.
There you can read Al's stator's bearings description :
Stator bearings -
I had 8, they are Stewart-Warner, and I had to buy 5 more from another source, they are
unmarked.
Bearing is generic ball bearing, ferromagnetic, 0.500 x 0.1875 x 0.125
(Editor's note: If you look at the photos it is obvious the bearing is
0.500OD x 0.125ID x 0.1875H )
Mass of stator magnet assembly, including holder, magnet, and bearing:
10 grams. Variation between the 13 units is below the resolution of my (home) scale.
@ All
here is the updated Pdf file, it can be a great help to go trough the various setup changes Al's operated on his rig :
http://www.ospmm.org/whipmag/pdf/OC_motor_012708.pdf (http://www.ospmm.org/whipmag/pdf/OC_motor_012708.pdf)
Cheers and good luck everybody ;)
Quote from: AndreaGanora on February 06, 2008, 07:45:31 PM
Quote from: JFK on February 06, 2008, 09:18:45 AM
@AndreaGanora, that is an intrigueing and complex theory, however a few pages back, I think we determined that Al's balls are ceramic. ;D
< pictures a bearing within a bearing with ceramic races and magnetized balls running itself > [ someone wanna do the math on that one ? ] :D
@JFK
Apart from jokes and from my "Magnetized Bearing?s magnetic vortex and delayed tailing effect" wild teory :), I've based my two actual replication's rigs mainly on the infos collected in a pdf file downloadable from OSPMMdotORG where are included lods of infos posted mainly by Al plus some others on various wipmag treads over at steorn and elsewhere.
There you can read Al's stator's bearings description :
Stator bearings -
I had 8, they are Stewart-Warner, and I had to buy 5 more from another source, they are
unmarked.
Bearing is generic ball bearing, ferromagnetic, 0.500 x 0.1875 x 0.125
(Editor's note: If you look at the photos it is obvious the bearing is
0.500OD x 0.125ID x 0.1875H )
Mass of stator magnet assembly, including holder, magnet, and bearing:
10 grams. Variation between the 13 units is below the resolution of my (home) scale.
@ All
here is the updated Pdf file, it can be a great help to go trough the various setup changes Al's operated on his rig :
http://www.ospmm.org/whipmag/pdf/OC_motor_012708.pdf (http://www.ospmm.org/whipmag/pdf/OC_motor_012708.pdf)
Cheers and good luck everybody ;)
Hello Andrea,
That bearing information is VERY useful. I am meeting with the bearing guy tomorrow. I will try to track those down.
EDIT:
I wish we had the height from the top of the base to the top of the rotor.
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: Omnibus on February 06, 2008, 06:42:49 PM
@vipond50,
So, the rotor weight 258g we are aiming at includes the HDPE part, the magnets and the piece that holds the shaft. These 258g, however, do not include the weight of the shaft and the weight of that red piece we see in the video on top of the rotor. Seems the actual weight of the rotor in the video is greater than 258g. Exactly how much greater is a mystery.
At this point I'm more concerned about the exact weights, especially of the rotor, and about the kgauss of the fields acting. The bearing issue seems a somewhat side issue--the over 200s rundown time being easily achievable with the bearings in the rotor and the AGW not difficult to lock especially when applying penetrating lubricant.
Hi Omni
Well the true Mass of the Rotor in the Second version really is not known, but Al did state that he plugged the hole. I take this to mean that he machined an adapter to fit the New shaft arrangement. So if this is the case then the total Mass of the Rotor would be larger than the 258 grams.
Which U have stated as Rotor+Magnets+Bearings(?). The physical mass of the shaft would not effect the actual mass of the Second version rotor due to its really part of the Base plate. The rotational resistance although would as u are aware. The Red piece (Pulley) is an unknown in mass.
Now.... The mass of the HDPE Plug, I would think would be very close to the mass of the bearings utilized in Ver. 1 (educated Guess). Don't forget that Al machined out the under side of the Ver. 2 Rotor to afford clearances for the Bearing tower and mounting Cap screws. The mass of that material could bring the total mass of the Rotor back down to the 258 gram mark. ((Guessing here also) Dam, I hate this guessing), but all one can due is approximate from the pictorial details supplied in the Second Video.
I am in agreement with U relating to the magnetic work, but really we will not know for sure until Al does these mea's himself. I am not holding my breath on this one, so I am trudging along using the best estimated method. Very Frustrating and time consuming, but necessary.
AGW lock really is a given at this point, but the first phase aspect of the motorization is not. This is where I am working. To give some kind of indication which I have yet to observe with the second version. I believe after this aspect is reached then AWG will take the device to the second phase (spin up).
Regards
Bill
@Bruce_TPU,
"EDIT:
I wish we had the height from the top of the base to the top of the rotor."
Doesn't this dimension follow from the requirement that the bottom of the rotor magnets has to be flush with the top plane of the stator magnet?
@vipond50,
I believe fine-tuning is the word here, as in any precise mechanical device if it is to be made to work properly. We have to have a leeway to adjust the several parameters we've identified. Nothing unusual in that. Maybe @alsetalokin has given enough clues. Now it's a matter of skill and, not in the least unimportant, of some luck. Think about reproducing someone else's results when you're doing research in a standard university setting. Many times it's as difficult as this one, if not even more difficult that this one, despite the fact that there the previous work has been published in peer-reviewed literature and not by someone popping up out of nowhere in an internet forum.
@ All
This afternoon i finished up machining my Fourth Rotor. The rotor is based off the spec of 144mm X 18 mm. The material is UHMW and the Rotor mass with magnets is 266.8 grams.(8.8 grams heavy). The magnet slots are machined to a depth of 0.410" (10.4mm) so i could deepen them and bring the mass down closer to the mark. There is also a stand off on the bottom of the rotor that could also be removed and still reduce the total mass to bring the RT closer to the mark.
Will look at this closer tomorrow.
Regards
Bill
Quote from: Omnibus on February 06, 2008, 09:50:50 PM
@Bruce_TPU,
"EDIT:
I wish we had the height from the top of the base to the top of the rotor."
Doesn't this dimension follow from the requirement that the bottom of the rotor magnets has to be flush with the top plane of the stator magnet?
Hmm.... I actually found what I was looking for, in the .pdf. It would seem that I have my construct incorrect in several regards.
Incorrect -I am using a 1" brass 4-40 screw to hold my bearing. On the underside of the bearing is a mini nut to hold the center race and then the rest screwed into the base plate
Correct -I need to use a 3/4" long 4/40 Stainless Steel (interesting) screw. I need a tiny Stainless Steel washer for under the bearing to hold the center race and act as a spacer for the bearing.
Incorrect -I am not using Stewart-Warner Bearings for my Stators
Correct -Order Stewart-Warner bearings of correct size from Mike, the bearing guy.
Small progress is good!
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 06, 2008, 10:10:47 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 06, 2008, 09:50:50 PM
@Bruce_TPU,
"EDIT:
I wish we had the height from the top of the base to the top of the rotor."
Doesn't this dimension follow from the requirement that the bottom of the rotor magnets has to be flush with the top plane of the stator magnet?
Hmm.... I actually found what I was looking for, in the .pdf. It would seem that I have my construct incorrect in several regards.
Incorrect -
I am using a 1" brass 4-40 screw to hold my bearing. On the underside of the bearing is a mini nut to hold the center race and then the rest screwed into the base plate
Correct -
I need to use a 3/4" long 4/40 Stainless Steel (interesting) screw. I need a tiny Stainless Steel washer for under the bearing to hold the center race and act as a spacer for the bearing.
Incorrect -
I am not using Stewart-Warner Bearings for my Stators
Correct -
Order Stewart-Warner bearings of correct size from Mike, the bearing guy.
Small progress is good!
Cheers,
Bruce
Bruce
When U get the Spec on the Stewart-Warner bearing please let me know. I attempted to locate these, but had no luck.
Thanks
Bill
@Bruce_TPU,
I'd like to know that too although see again how nonchalant @alsetalokin is about these matters in a link @blue_energy gave couple of pages back: http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=59687&page=7#Item_21, :
QuoteNo.
I mean, I scavenge most of this stuff from surplus junk equipment that I scrounge in back alleys.
And you want manufacturers?
These that I'm using now are for 3.5 mm shaft size, in a paired housing that slips into the rotor's central bore, extending down to a shock-mounted base bearing unit.
What I had in there before were just some generic flanged 1/4 inch bore unshielded bearings, and the shaft was a 1/4-20 brass screw. Not the most accurate arrangement.
Of course, I'm kind of dubious here, giving too much emphasis on what @alsetalokin says while on the other hand insisting, as is known, to have a strict copy of the working device. Ultimately, what's important is to have the effect reproduced which would be most likely by following the exact construction of the device, no matter what someone's opinions are and how nonchalant about the details he is.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 06, 2008, 10:10:47 PM
Correct -
I need to use a 3/4" long 4/40 Stainless Steel (interesting) screw. I need a tiny Stainless Steel washer for under the bearing to hold the center race and act as a spacer for the bearing.
...
Small progress is good!
Cheers,
Bruce
Bruce,
The place I found these screws is:
http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlinecatalog/displayproduct.cfm?productID=1607
I went with 1/2 inch myself.
NT55-186 1 $9.00 $9.00 50/PK SHCS- #4-40 x 1/2
Quote from: vipond50 on February 06, 2008, 09:45:42 PM
Now.... The mass of the HDPE Plug...
Bill
My recollection was the rotor plug was Delrin.
@ Bill
Of course! ;)
@ Ken
Thanks! What does the SHCS stand for?
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 06, 2008, 10:10:47 PM
Incorrect -
I am not using Stewart-Warner Bearings for my Stators
Correct -
Order Stewart-Warner bearings of correct size from Mike, the bearing guy.
Small progress is good!
Cheers,
Bruce
@Bruce
I don't remember Al writing anyting about the Stewart-Warners beyng for shure the ones that worked properly as stator's bearing between the 13 he had, since he had some Stewart-Warners , but not enough of them , so he bought some other unlabelled ones . so is a good start knowing the maker of some of them but isn't shure they are the good working ones , at least not that I remember him mentioning it .
just a notice ;)
keep the great work up
P.S. edited
here is A dimensioned sketch of the design for the stator magnet/bearing holders made by AL :
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ospmm.org%2Fwhipmag%2Fmaghold1.JPG&hash=62eb1d654956481712e2dec8a2321ce194010dc5)
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 06, 2008, 10:35:32 PM
@ Ken
Thanks! What does the SHCS stand for?
Socket Head Cap Screw. You will need an Allen wrench for them.
Also remember Al ground/cut down the heads, "for clearance".
This is the one part of the rig that I have played at putting together, and even clamped down it is a pretty loose setup, with the little washer underneath, and just the bearings trying to hold things straight.
.
RE WhipMag history/construction and parts:
I find this large PDF to be the very useful. It appears to have all of the dialog between Al and OC, as well as specs -- as they evolved.
... http://www.ospmm.org/whipmag/pdf/OC_motor_012708.pdf
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@Yadaraf,
@overconfident's input is to be ignored altogether. It's only noise and gets in the way of proper replication of the device.
Quote from: AndreaGanora on February 06, 2008, 10:44:36 PM
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 06, 2008, 10:10:47 PM
Incorrect -
I am not using Stewart-Warner Bearings for my Stators
Correct -
Order Stewart-Warner bearings of correct size from Mike, the bearing guy.
Small progress is good!
Cheers,
Bruce
@Bruce
I don't remember Al writing anyting about the Stewart-Warners beyng for shure the ones that worked properly as stator's bearing between the 13 he had, since he had some Stewart-Warners , but not enough of them , so he bought some other unlabelled ones . so is a good start knowing the maker of some of them but isn't shure they are the good working ones , at least not that I remember him mentioning it .
just a notice ;)
keep the great work up
Hi Andrea,
Nope, look again at what he says. ;)
Al:
"I had 8, they are Stewart-Warner, and I had to buy 5 more from another source, they are
unmarked."
I interpret this to mean that his original source for the Stewar-Warner bearings was dried up and he bought 5 more from another source. (but still the same Stewart-Warner bearings). And when they arrived, they were unmarked. Thus no serial numbers, etc. My bearings are all unmarked also.
Cheers,
Bruce
EDIT:
@ Ken
Thank you. I will try Stainless Steel 4-40 from Lowe's. I should not have to grind the head. Still Stainless Steel. I also need nylon screws for my dampers, not the brass I have. Everything affects damping, magnetics etc. and as Omni has said, it must be tuned perfect and built/replicated perfect. Only one on the planet works. I take this very seriously as do many of you. Let's make this happen.
@Bruce
Well better like that then ;D
I must have miss interpreted what he meant .
Cheers
Andrea
here you find nice and clear pics of the device :
http://www.ospmm.org/whipmag/ (http://www.ospmm.org/whipmag/)
@Bruce_TPU,
That's splitting hairs. I also understand it the way @AndreaGanora understood it--he ran out of the Stewart-Warner ones and had to buy 5 more from another, non-Stewart-Warner source and he doesn't know what exact source that was because they were unmarked. Now, if Stewart-Warner produces also unmarked bearings these new ones very well might have been Stewart-Warner as well but there's no proof for that. The only hope would be if Stewart-Warner is the only Canadian company producing bearings. Etc. ..., etc. ... I think we're trying to read too much into what @alsetalokin drops laxly here and there.
What should happen is to ask @alsetalokin to replace the parts from unknown sources with parts (magnets, bearings, screws etc.) of known origin and tell us if he still reproduces the effect seen in his first video. If he were to publish this in a peer-reviewed journal he would be asked to do that by the reviewers. Otherwise it's just a frivolous playing a cat and mouse game with those genuinely interested in this experiment.
That's why I'm saying again, given these unfortunate circumstances (the "author" not willing to abide by the scientific standards) the credit for constructing this device should go solely to the person or persons who would really find out the conditions for independent parties to easily reproduce this effect.
@ Omni
Perhaps. Perhaps not. If I know a particular Mfg. Bearing works, why would I want another? I would have started with those, if I had known the name. And it is a Mfg. of bearings. I will find and order some tomorrow.
I'll post the info for those that want it.
@ Ken
Is the SHCS screws that you have magnetic or non magnetic? Some stainless is, and some is not.
Please verify and let me know. Thanks!
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 06, 2008, 09:32:01 PM
Quote from: AndreaGanora on February 06, 2008, 07:45:31 PM
Quote from: JFK on February 06, 2008, 09:18:45 AM
@AndreaGanora, that is an intrigueing and complex theory, however a few pages back, I think we determined that Al's balls are ceramic. ;D
< pictures a bearing within a bearing with ceramic races and magnetized balls running itself > [ someone wanna do the math on that one ? ] :D
@JFK
Apart from jokes and from my "Magnetized Bearing?s magnetic vortex and delayed tailing effect" wild teory :), I've based my two actual replication's rigs mainly on the infos collected in a pdf file downloadable from OSPMMdotORG where are included lods of infos posted mainly by Al plus some others on various wipmag treads over at steorn and elsewhere.
There you can read Al's stator's bearings description :
Stator bearings -
I had 8, they are Stewart-Warner, and I had to buy 5 more from another source, they are
unmarked.
Bearing is generic ball bearing, ferromagnetic, 0.500 x 0.1875 x 0.125
(Editor's note: If you look at the photos it is obvious the bearing is
0.500OD x 0.125ID x 0.1875H )
Mass of stator magnet assembly, including holder, magnet, and bearing:
10 grams. Variation between the 13 units is below the resolution of my (home) scale.
@ All
here is the updated Pdf file, it can be a great help to go trough the various setup changes Al's operated on his rig :
http://www.ospmm.org/whipmag/pdf/OC_motor_012708.pdf (http://www.ospmm.org/whipmag/pdf/OC_motor_012708.pdf)
Cheers and good luck everybody ;)
Hello Andrea,
That bearing information is VERY useful. I am meeting with the bearing guy tomorrow. I will try to track those down.
EDIT:
I wish we had the height from the top of the base to the top of the rotor.
Cheers,
Bruce
Also, there is info. there on what is included in the 258 grams rotor weight (
"including magnets and shaft adapter, but not including shaft or bearings"); what the composition of the rotor spindle and bearings are; etc. All the stuff Omni was looking for, I believe. Invaluable document!
Hello all,
I have just labeled this picture. This is what I need to now work on, while I await my rotor. It should be here this week. It has already been shipped.
When it arrives, I will weigh everything and post the weights.
G'night,
Bruce
@ Bruce, Omni and Others
Was comparing my stator referencing Rotor magnets orientation to the attached Pic and could not come up with the same. Was wondering if u could look at your Orientations and supply some feedback.
Q.- Did Al accurately mark the N & S of his Stator Magnetics ?
Thanks
Bill]
@vipond50,
Will do that as soon as my rotor arrives today and will let you know.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 07, 2008, 12:58:44 AM
@vipond50,
Will do that as soon as my rotor arrives today and will let you know.
Thanks Omni
i can only get one to line up, The other two are out 20 or so degrees. In the mean time i will try to angular measurements off my setup as well as Mea's off the pic.
Regards
Bill
Quote from: vipond50 on February 07, 2008, 12:38:16 AM
@ Bruce, Omni and Others
Was comparing my stator referencing Rotor magnets orientation to the attached Pic and could not come up with the same. Was wondering if u could look at your Orientations and supply some feedback.
Q.- Did Al accurately mark the N & S of his Stator Magnetics ?
Thanks
Bill]
@vipond50
Good you pointed this out , I didn't notice :-\
I think i can recall someone usking Al to chek if he had marked his mags correctly , and Al unswering that they could have been all marked wrongly colorwhise ( that meaning that black could mean either noth or south ) but that he doublechecked all of them and all stator's and rotor's mags showed to be marked same colour on same poles and therefore to be consistent .
Here is a pic of my rig , I've tried to let the rotor sit in the same position as Al's and as you can see it doesn't really match by spacing and angoular alignment of rotor's/stator's mags.
Note : All magnets on my rig are standard colour marked RED=NORTH and WHITE = SOUTH - my rotor is ( EDITED shaved it tonight on the Lathefrom 20 down to 18 mm )thick HDPE - weight 8edited now weight 260 grams included bearings so different design but allmost spot on about the weight )- 144mm dia. - magnet housing groove 13mm deep by 7mm whide - distance from rotor's outher edge to magnet's housing groove inner edge 13mm - 1/2" dia by 1/4" deep centerholes on both sides of rotor , centerholes housing 2 SKF 624-2z bearings normal ferromagnetic same as the ones I use for the stators- dumpers made of anticorodal alluminum same dimensions as stator's mags BUT NOTE that the rotor's mags are K&J's D48 that are N42 grade and not N35 as appearently the ones used in Al's working rig , but I don't know if the different alignment could depend on this factor , i rather suppose that the rotor's N42 mags would anyway balance themselves respect to the stator's ones in the same way as the N35 would but not shure about that ::).
Hello Andrea,
A nice looking rig. What materials are your dampers? If it is not the 6061 T-6 I suggest you change to that. Also use the nylon for the center screws of the dampers. Or golf Tees. Other screws will add to the dampening effect.
I am working on proper screws today, myself.
Good Job!
Cheers,
Bruce
@vipond50 and @AndreaGanora,
@WhiteLite brought up the question for magnets being off in the strobe video and @alsetalokin answered it here: http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=2188#2188. Obviously, there must be a similar problem in the device shown in the picture as well.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 06, 2008, 11:24:48 PM
@ Ken
Is the SHCS screws that you have magnetic or non magnetic? Some stainless is, and some is not.
Please verify and let me know. Thanks!
Cheers,
Bruce
Hey Bruce,
The SHCS screws that I have are magnetic. There does not seem to be much choice out there.
Yes the anticorodal in in facts the 6061 T-6 , abouth the screws I have to go to the proper shop to get some nylon ones , I'll do that as soon as i can ;)
To be really precise I should also change the base material from HDPE to Perspex acrylic , according to Al's specs .
About the pics and the mags alignment I went trough my precious savings :P( from various Al's posts ) and I've found the question about mags i previously refferred to :
Quote
korkskrew:@alsetalokin
Could you please recheck the polarity markings on your stators? I think they may be marked opposite of how the rotor magnets are marked.
Checked and doublechecked many times, again just now.
The markings are consistent on all magnets.
The reason I asked is this picture
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/compare1.jpg
. One would expect the stator to rotate so the opposing poles would be attracted to eachother. In the photo the colored ends are pointing the same direction suggesting that the N pole on one magnet is colored and the S pole on the other magnet is colored.
This is the last I'll say of it. I don't want to be a pest. I'm just trying to build an accurate model in my computer.
P.S. Just out of curiosity, did you read my AGW sync theory? If so, any comment?
So Clanzer and I both made the same mistake, is that what you are saying? No, it looks to me like his markings agree with mine--yes, my picture was taken in motion with flash, I don't know the circumstances of Clanzer's pic. I used the magnetic field visualizing film to identify the location of the poles on the stator magnets and marked the border very accurately. I don't know how accurate Clanzer's marks are or how he determined where the poles are.
Again, I have checked and rechecked the polarity markings on my magnets. They are consistent throughout. All like poles are marked with like colors.
I made no attempt to mark the rotor magnet walls exactly, as I did the stators. The rotor magnets are just marked for polarity. And their markings are consistent.
So now I 'm in doubt if also the pic we are thalking about could have been a flash or a strobo still pic and therefore the missed alinement could maybe be justified ??
@Bruce_TPU
I wonder if you should try moving the dampers around a bit. Sounds like you might be getting something but it is going a bit to fast on entry to sustain (suggestion courtesy of EmeraldSong).
.
@ ALL
RE Rotor diameter question
I'm from the California, so I don't use the Metric system all that much. As Omni jokingly pointed out to me, Al's rotor diameter is 144 mm by a "fortuitous coincidence."
... Q: How common is it to choose 144 mm as a design specification?
I think a normal designer would choose 150 mm -- nice, round, exactly between 100 mm and 200 mm.
... Q: Any thoughts on how/why Al chose 144 mm?
Of course, I have a few "non-scientific" thoughts on the dimension. Given what we know about Al, my thoughts might have credence, but I'm asking whether there is a good scientific or machining basis for the rotor dimension.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@vipond50,
As I promised you, I just checked the disposition of the stators with respect to the rotor?it?s very similar to what @AndreaGanora has here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg75827.html#msg75827.
I have now the two rigs with me and will do some experiments with both. Later will post at least some soundtracks for @Yadaraf to analyze, if he feels like it.
.
I've run a second spectral analysis using different software. See Figure.
The tone at 174 Hz is unmistakable, and I've even verified it directly using a signal generator sweep from 170 to 178 Hz and studying the interference. There is an observable "phase lock" at 174 Hz.
I'm now working on the second [higher] frequency, which might be complementary. My hypothesis is that the Judson dampers affect the higher frequency, which might be tuned ideally to 852 Hz (see http://peswiki.com/index.php/Frequency (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Frequency) and Google ).
I'm trying to contact the individual who produced the Peak Frequency video, so if anyone can help I'd be appreciative.
Comments welcome.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@ Ken
Thank you. That is good to know. Someone trying to replicate this, uses non magnetic screws that build up eddy currents, etc and nothing works.
1 machine that works on the entire planet. Precision with the smallest detail is going to be important. IMHO We will see.
@ All
Bearing guy has found Stewart-Warner bearings. He has placed a call to them and left a voice mail. I will touch base with him tomorrow and repost Mike's info, if you want to order some. ;D ;D ;D
Cheers,
Bruce
you guys will want to see these videos..
this is the guy from ottawas generator
story here http://www.thestar.com/sciencetech/article/300042
vids (7 parts) start here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogLeKTlLy5E
@Evil-doer,
Yes, he has proved nothing so far, no precise measurements of input power and output power as was mentioned in the correct thread:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4047.75.html
His motor is consuming about 85 watts but there is no mention of generated power output power, so until he does then he will not get my attention.
@Bruce,
The 5x10x4mm ceramic bearings arrived today, they are stainless steel and teflon + ceramic balls, but the stainless steel may as well be soft iron because they love to stick to the magnets. :(
They seem fairly free running, one more so than the other, so I need to get more bearings to compare with.
If you are placing an order, find out the price per and put me down for 4 or more depending on price. PM me with the details.
Trying to figure a way of running these bearings in to loosen them up, I am thinking of running them for a couple of days off a small DC motor.
Regards
Rob
.
RE Better [original] Al video in WMV format
I learned today that there is a better video of Al's device. It's supposed to be the original -- in WMV format.
WMV video of Al's device:
... http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/alsvideo.wmv 8)
I've begun analyzing the WMV audio, and although close to the YouTube video there are subtle differences. I found someone else who is analyzing the audio, and we are comparing [independent] observations.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Is it a lot of smoke screens here or? ???
On this link http://www.overunity.org.uk/ there are Plans for construction
like this http://www.overunity.org.uk/jdo/Drawings.pdf scale 1:1
and like this http://www.overunity.org.uk/jdo/Rotor_Disk_Template.pdf scale 1:1
On this plans the rotor is 136mm, what is right?? is it 144mm or not ???
And thats only the rotor, seems that it is more questions then answers.
Regards :)
Sorry my printer was wrong :-\
Hey All,
I have got some great personal news tonight! I now have DSL at my Ranch!! ;D
That means I can do some live web cam experiments, when I have all of the correct parts in. If some of you would be interested in tuning in...?
About the links about the Perepiteia, they showed the machine at MIT. They were very impressed. Read this:
http://gizmodo.com/353655/perepiteia-perpetual+motion-machine-may-actually-dosomething
@ Rob
Not even a problem. I will for sure do that for you.
Slowly but surely the correct parts are coming together. I am very encouraged that when we have precise replications we will see the effect.
I did achieve AGW lock several times last night with someone else's rotor. (Long story) Mine should be here tomorrow...I hope.
When It arrives, I will do a full measurment of size and weight for all parts and match it to Al's.
Cheers all,
Bruce
@Yadaraf,
Here is a sound sample of the rig with which I saw the initial encouraging results (then with rectangular magnets). The weight of the rotor is 237g (HDPE + cylinder magnets + bearings). Although I've tried it also with N35 and N38 I'm sending you the sample with N42. The strength of the magnets didn't seem to make any difference. Here all three stators are present as well as the two dampers. Unfortunately, I couldn't take the rpm measurements--too many things to take care at once. But the initial rpm are on the order of 370rpm which I determined by spinning it in advance several times. In the sample you can hear that the AGW lock up kicks in after the second trial. Sometimes the AGW can appear right after the first trial, sometimes even several trials cannot achieve it until the rpm go below certain level. Let's see what this sample will show if you feel like analyzing it and then we'll take it from there.
@Bruce_TPU,
That's great to have it broadcast live. Good luck with the experiments.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 07, 2008, 07:24:48 PM
@Yadaraf,
Here is a sound sample of the rig with which I saw the initial encouraging results (then with rectangular magnets). The weight of the rotor is 237g (HDPE + cylinder magnets + bearings). Although I've tried it also with N35 and N38 I'm sending you the sample with N42. The strength of the magnets didn't seem to make any difference. Here all three stators are present as well as the two dampers. Unfortunately, I couldn't take the rpm measurements--too many things to take care at once. But the initial rpm are on the order of 370rpm which I determined by spinning it in advance several times. In the sample you can hear that the AGW lock up kicks in after the second trial. Sometimes the AGW can appear right after the first trial, sometimes even several trials cannot achieve it until the rpm go below certain level. Let's see what this sample will show if you feel like analyzing it and then we'll take it from there.
Omni,
Here you are. The baseline wasn't very clean.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@Yadaraf,
Thanks. So, the tone at 174Hz seen here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg75888.html#msg75888 is missing in my spectrum a 228Hz present instead. The 849-861Hz peak is also missing, the closest being the 929Hz. In the above link there are no peaks in the kHz region seen in my spectrum. The only similarity is the separation on the order of 700Hz between the two leftmost characteristic peaks. All in all mine sounds (never mind the pun) pretty different from @alsetalokin?s. I wonder if the pattern similar to that in the link would be the characteristic one for a working device or it?s just an artifact. Later will make a sound sample with the other rotor to see if there would be any similarity with this spectrum.
@Yadaraf,
Here's the sample with my 266g rotor just for comparison. I know that 237g as was my other rotor and this 266g differ from the original but it isn't at all certain that the original is 258g because that's its weight without the red piece seen on top of it in the video. So. let's see what this sample will show and then I may revert back to the lighter rotor because achieving AGW here wasn't as easy at higher rpm.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 07, 2008, 09:41:32 PM
@Yadaraf,
Here's the sample with my 266g rotor just for comparison. I know that 237g as was my other rotor and this 266g differ from the original but it isn't at all certain that the original is 258g because that's its weight without the red piece seen on top of it in the video. So. let's see what this sample will show and then I may revert back to the lighter rotor because achieving AGW here wasn't as easy at higher rpm.
Omni,
Attached is an analysis of the last file. Neither of the last two audios are similar to Al's audio with respect to the dominant and dynamic 174 Hz tone.
Both audio files are fairly clean, but
low in amplitude. If you could locate the microphone closer, that might help. Please remember to disable the AGC if possible.
If you can use two mics to monitor the stator and rotor separately, plug one into the LEFT channel [rotor?] and the second into the RIGHT [stator]. ;)
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@Yadaraf,
It's become clear that the acoustic properties of my rig are quite different from the original. Should this be of concern, however? Imagine that we know the exact parameters that would provide the proper timing for net forward push, would this be only achievable with particular materials, bearings, thicknesses, radii that would ensure the same acoustics? Suppose you observe the sounds in the frequency domain of various working internal combustion engines, will they exhibit similar patterns even though made by different manufacturers. Quite doubtful, unless you have evidence to the contrary which would be very interesting.
It would be interesting to see what @vipond50's, @Bruce_TPU's and anybody else's spectra will be and if there would be any common features and not a total mess. That's just out of curiosity. You wouldn't expect such analysis to bring any clues as to the direction of research, would you?
Now, purely mechanically it seems that the device likes a lighter rotor. Like I said, I don't see any difference when N42 magnets are replaced with N38 or N35. However, with this lighter rotor (237g) AGW locking is easier and the fewer the stators the easier it gets. Very good AGW results are obtained with only two stators outstanding almost diagonally from each other. What's most intriguing is that at the moment the AGW is achieved it seems that a tendency towards acceleration is felt momentarily which promptly disappears. This has to be confirmed, however, quantitatively with a better tachometer than the one I have. It seems that the main reason for getting out of sync (although still in AGW rotation) is the wrong proportion between the weights and probably the wrong proportion of the magnetic field strengths. How are these to be fine tuned is a real challenge.
By the way, did you find how this peak frequency analysis was done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7M3nasCdWI ? This may help in clarifying what really happens at the moments when AGW occurs. For these devices we're studying now, which are very far from the desired working model, the effect will probably be somewhere in the fine structure of the curve. If we can do such analysis it may help us avoid a more sophisticated tachometer to demonstrate the effect, if any.
EDIT: Now works.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 08, 2008, 12:27:05 AM
... find how this peak frequency analysis was done: www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7M3nasCdWI?
Link Doesn't work; got another ?
- Schpankme
Quote from: Omnibus on February 08, 2008, 12:02:06 AM
@Yadaraf,
It's become clear that the acoustic properties of my rig are quite different from the original. Should this be of concern, however? Imagine that we know the exact parameters that would provide the proper timing for net forward push, would this be only achievable with particular materials, bearings, thicknesses, radii that would ensure the same acoustics? Suppose you observe the sounds in the frequency domain of various working internal combustion engines, will they exhibit similar patterns even though made by different manufacturers. Quite doubtful, unless you have evidence to the contrary which would be very interesting.
It would be interesting to see what @vipond50's, @Bruce_TPU's and anybody else's spectra will be and if there would be any common features and not a total mess. That's just out of curiosity. You wouldn't expect such analysis to bring any clues as to the direction of research, would you?
Now, purely mechanically it seems that the device likes a lighter rotor. Like I said, I don't see any difference when N42 magnets are replaced with N38 or N35. However, with this lighter rotor (237g) AGW locking is easier and the fewer the stators the easier it gets. Very good AGW results are obtained with only two stators outstanding almost diagonally from each other. What's most intriguing is that at the moment the AGW is achieved it seems that a tendency towards acceleration is felt momentarily which promptly disappears. This has to be confirmed, however, quantitatively with a better tachometer than the one I have. It seems that the main reason for getting out of sync (although still in AGW rotation) is the wrong proportion between the weights and probably the wrong proportion of the magnetic field strengths. How are these to be fine tuned is a real challenge.
Omni,
RE "It's become clear that the acoustic properties of my rig are quite different from the original."
Please keep in mind that the tones in Al's video might be emanating from heating ducts or something else that resonates.
RE "You wouldn't expect such analysis to bring any clues as to the direction of research, would you?"
Depends on certain assumptions. As you know, it's possible to shatter crystal with sound waves. How about about sonoluminescence? My point is that tones -- on their own -- could be important to the device. When one of the stators is subjected to low frequencies around 170 Hz, there might be a measurable displacement -- a "micro" oscillation of the stator.
RE "What's most intriguing is that at the moment the AGW is achieved it seems that a tendency towards acceleration is felt momentarily which promptly disappears."
I hear you. It's like starting a car when the timing is not set correctly. It's very difficult to start, if not impossible. Once it starts, however, it's likely to keep running because the timing changes as the RPM increase. On my car, the timing changes 32 degrees between 0 RPM and 5200 RPM. I wouldn't put past this device to benefit from a timing curve (a.k.a. power curve).
I analyzed Bruce's video the other day. I need to look at it again, focusing on the chatter when the stator oscillates.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Schpankme on February 08, 2008, 12:31:16 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 08, 2008, 12:27:05 AM
... find how this peak frequency analysis was done: www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7M3nasCdWI?
Link Doesn't work; got another ?
- Schpankme
Schpankme ,
Here's the correct link:
... http://youtube.com/watch?v=v7M3nasCdWI (http://youtube.com/watch?v=v7M3nasCdWI)
Although I haven't found out who created this video, I discovered that the source of the video is the WMV file at CLaNZeR's site and not the YouTube FLV. The audio is quite different. It's possible that the WMV was created from the FLV. I have to check.
... http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/alsvideo.wmv (http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/alsvideo.wmv)
In the WMV I can observe what "appears" to be a frequency shift between 144 Hz and 174 Hz, but I'm still not certain, because the 2nd harmonic of the power line is quite obvious at 120 Hz. I just got the video today, and tomorrow I hope to study it some more. One thing is for certain, we should stop analyzing the YouTube video (i.e. FLV file).
Q: If someone can find out from CLaNZeR if the WMV is an original and not extracted from the FLV, that would help.Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Update:
I just got my proper magnets from K/J that I ordered from Jan 5. Seems they got lost somewhere and even ordered another lot and this came within 2 weeks. So both almost came same time. I thought I might ask anyone with a CNC mill is willing to make a rotor or even sell me a older version I might like. would prefer small center hole so I can use my bearings. Please
PM me.
Thanks
Wayne
Back home for the weekend this end ;D
My new 1/2 Stator bearings have arrived, so I know what I will be playing with this weekend :)
Much looser than the RC sealed ones.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Ffebbearings.jpg&hash=8d99134de0cdad6c7aac384993eb0d38ea07f629)
Will let you know as usual how it goes.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 08, 2008, 02:01:49 AM
Q: If someone can find out from CLaNZeR if the WMV is an original and not extracted from the FLV, that would help.
Hi Yada
Sorry mate I think the WMV was converted from the youtube FLV.
Al records his originals in .MOV format and searching on my Hard drive I have the originals from Video 2 and Video 3 but not Video 1 :( ,
Cheers
Sean.
hi everyone i was watching the video again and around 2:09 through 2:11 someone says something... does anyone know what he says?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIvZJ9xGutI
Yadaraf wrote:
Quote...because the 2nd harmonic of the power line is quite obvious at 120 Hz.
Hi Yadaraf.
Not wishing to appear overly pedantic :P but the 120Hz buzz could actually be the dominant fundamental if the hum is the result of a poorly regulated supply, or burst noise from full-wave rectification getting into the amplified mic path. I think that the latter is most likely, particularly as broad-band harmonics of burst noise are evident well into the kHz region, so the only means of filtration is a comb notch filter.
There's not so much envelope power in the higher harmonics though, so I'd guess that heterodyning shouldn't significantly impact upon your spectral analysis - but only a guess though :)
All the best,
FunkyJive
Quote from: CLaNZeR on February 08, 2008, 12:13:14 PM
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 08, 2008, 02:01:49 AM
Q: If someone can find out from CLaNZeR if the WMV is an original and not extracted from the FLV, that would help.
Hi Yada
Sorry mate I think the WMV was converted from the youtube FLV.
Al records his originals in .MOV format and searching on my Hard drive I have the originals from Video 2 and Video 3 but not Video 1 :( ,
Cheers
Sean.
CLaNZeR,Thanks very much. The fact that Al records MOVs now suggests that the WMV could be from the MOV and not the FLV, in which case the WMV is still better than the FLV. In comparison, the WMV would not be good if it were extracted from the FLV. I guess I can convet the FLV to WMV and see what the new WMV looks like. ;)
New question CLaNZeR:
Q: Could the WMV on your site have been converted from the MOV?I mentioned that a spectral analysis of the YouTube video yields different results -- specifically, I can't detect the low frequency acceleration like in the WMV file. It's possible that if the WMV file were extracted from the FLV file there is a compression artifact near the 120 Hz power line harmonic, which produces the appearance of a 144 Hz tone at 1700 RPM.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: crash_uni8 on February 08, 2008, 12:45:33 PM
hi everyone i was watching the video again and around 2:09 through 2:11 someone says something... does anyone know what he says?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIvZJ9xGutI
crash_uni8,I struggled with Al's audio as well. At 2:09 I thought he was taking a measurement and saying under his breath "that's not good."
After watching his process, reading the tach for myself, and listening carefully, I concluded the following:
... Stator speed: before stopping two of the stators:
1700 RPM... Stator speed: after acceleration -- at very end of video:
4700 RPMLet me know if you arrive at a different conclusion.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@All,
I did some more tests and I have come to the conclusion that the bearings really need to made of something like aluminium alloy because even stainless steel is too magnetic and suffers from magnetic friction.
One alternate solution to ball bearing races is to mount the rotor magnet on a nylon shaft with two ribs top and bottom so the points of contact are minimal. I found spinning a magnet on a 4mm nylon bolt is very good.
The bronze bush idea is suddenly looking very attractive I hate to say.
The sealed bearings out of a hard disk drive were very bad friction wise, I thought the ceramic bearing were cogging a bit with the magnets on top, but the sealed bearings were acting as it they were covered in syrup.
[edit] I found that one of the ceramic bearings had its teflon shield brushing the inner race causing very slight friction. The bearings with the rubber seal have, I think, a permanent contact with the inner race cause extensive friction. I guess the idea behind a double metal shield is to have a large overlap between the two shields to prevent dirt getting in and the lube getting out - yet there is no contact. [/edit]
I think my next step is to order some lightweight ali bearings:
Pictures of sealed ceramic 5x10x4mm and standard sealed 5x10.5x4mm bearings:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2FDSCN5266.jpg&hash=bfeabf506f830101129c4871142a2764e83d65fd)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2FDSCN5267.jpg&hash=8d9f86d3f90da095e34149e186ad17ae7978195b)
@Bruce,
Many thanks for sourcing the bearings - I look forward to getting more details on them.
Regards
Rob
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 07, 2008, 11:03:56 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 07, 2008, 09:41:32 PM
@Yadaraf,
Here's the sample with my 266g rotor just for comparison. I know that 237g as was my other rotor and this 266g differ from the original but it isn't at all certain that the original is 258g because that's its weight without the red piece seen on top of it in the video. So. let's see what this sample will show and then I may revert back to the lighter rotor because achieving AGW here wasn't as easy at higher rpm.
Omni,
Attached is an analysis of the last file. Neither of the last two audios are similar to Al's audio with respect to the dominant and dynamic 174 Hz tone.
Both audio files are fairly clean, but low in amplitude. If you could locate the microphone closer, that might help. Please remember to disable the AGC if possible.
If you can use two mics to monitor the stator and rotor separately, plug one into the LEFT channel [rotor?] and the second into the RIGHT [stator]. ;)
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
After filtering out the noise in the sound track of Alsetalokin's first video, I enhanced the portion around 174 Hertz. Then, independently, I produced a reference 174 Hz tone for comparison. I noticed that there is no dominant tone on the video near 174 Hz until after the second acceleration - and it builds in frequency until it gets there as the rotor/stator speed up. To check for sure that what I was hearing was correct, I superimposed the 174 reference tone against the enhanced portion of the audio at that point and played them back together.
One of the interesting phenomema of sound is that, as two tones which are nearly the same pitch approach each other slowly, when they are almost 'in tune', audible phasing 'beats' are heard until they are exacly in tune - at which points the beats disappear. The audio from Al's video and the 174 Hz reference tone, played together, exhibit this property as the rotor/stator speeds up until they are at their maximum rpm. Only at this point do the beats cease.
Please find an attached mp3 which demonstrates this. The first 3 seconds are the 174 Hz reference tone. Then, there is an excerpt from the enhanced audio at the point where the rotor/stator are approaching their maximum rpm. You can hear an increasing tone that sounds as if it is approaching the same frequency. Finally, the same excerpt superimposed over the reference tone. You can hear the 'beats' speed up and finally disappear as the sound from the rotor approaches and lands on 174 Hz.
On the video, Al mentions that the final speed of the rotor is '...about 1,700 rpm'. If it happened to be 1,740 rpm - then 174 Hz would be exactly 1 tenth of the speed of the rotor. At that point it gets a little sticky though, because I can't think of an overtone/fundamental relationship which involves a 5. But - it's been over 30 years since my 'Physics of Music' class - so maybe there is an explanation there.
@Blue energy,
The MP3 was impressive - well done!
174Hz = 174 beats /second = 10440 beats / minute
8 rotor magnets passing the stator would give 1700 rpm x 8 / 60 = 226Hz
174Hz would imply a rotor speed of 1305 rpm and a stator speed of 5220 rpm.
Regards
Rob
Quote from: MeggerMan on February 08, 2008, 04:57:20 PM
@Blue energy,
The MP3 was impressive - well done!
174Hz = 174 beats /second = 10440 beats / minute
8 rotor magnets passing the stator would give 1700 rpm x 8 / 60 = 226Hz
174Hz would imply a rotor speed of 1305 rpm and a stator speed of 5220 rpm.
Regards
Rob
And would be much closer to ALs quoted stator/rotor speeds of 1250/5000
Quote from: MeggerMan on February 08, 2008, 04:57:20 PM
@Blue energy,
The MP3 was impressive - well done!
174Hz = 174 beats /second = 10440 beats / minute
8 rotor magnets passing the stator would give 1700 rpm x 8 / 60 = 226Hz
174Hz would imply a rotor speed of 1305 rpm and a stator speed of 5220 rpm.
Regards
Rob
Thank you on the mp3 praise - and thank you more for gently pointing out that rpm and Hz are fundamentally different! It's always the most fundamental of the small details that get me - the one's whose magnified influence is most embarressing. Is it that way for you?
Quote from: MeggerMan on February 08, 2008, 04:57:20 PM
@Blue energy,
The MP3 was impressive - well done!
174Hz = 174 beats /second = 10440 beats / minute
8 rotor magnets passing the stator would give 1700 rpm x 8 / 60 = 226Hz
174Hz would imply a rotor speed of 1305 rpm and a stator speed of 5220 rpm.
Regards
Rob
AND - 5220 rpm could be a stator scraping once per revolution, 87 per second - which would make 174 Hz the 'first overtone': exactly an octave higher - a much more reasonable accoustic relationship.
But - Al says, very clearly, that the rotor rpm, at just that moment, was '...about 1700'. So - something isn't making complete sense. 300 rpm is a lot of variance.
<edit> 5220 - not 5200...
Quote from: blue_energy on February 08, 2008, 05:41:33 PM
Quote from: MeggerMan on February 08, 2008, 04:57:20 PM
@Blue energy,
The MP3 was impressive - well done!
174Hz = 174 beats /second = 10440 beats / minute
8 rotor magnets passing the stator would give 1700 rpm x 8 / 60 = 226Hz
174Hz would imply a rotor speed of 1305 rpm and a stator speed of 5220 rpm.
Regards
Rob
AND - 5220 rpm could be a stator scraping once per revolution, 87 per second - which would make 174 Hz the 'first overtone': exactly an octave higher - a much more reasonable accoustic relationship.
But - Al says, very clearly, that the rotor rpm, at just that moment, was '...about 1700'. So - something isn't making complete sense. 300 rpm is a lot of variance.
<edit> 5220 - not 5200...
I noticed AL was taking quick readings that may have caused errors, it is also possible that "light" from the fluorescent lighting was affecting readings
I posted this before, but here is his run down test with stated rpm at each stage, I do not like the way this forum shrinks quotes to the point where I need a magnifying glass to read them, so please excuse my use of bold and italics instead.
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60132&page=17&Focus=2271368#Item_19
Nevertheless, I have started the unit. It is currently running with the rotor going counterclockwise, the two idler stators stopped (seeing each other nicely across the spinning rotor) and the "middle" stator spinning antigearwise, that is also counterclockwise in this case.
For some reason it seems to be working rather well tonight. The rotor rpm is 1334, the stator rpm is 5378. It was difficult to start, it took maybe 20 flips of the stator magnet in all before it "caught". But I am developing a thumb technique that is easier than the finger.
I started it at 02:14.
It is pretty noisy with the bearings chattering and growling, but I think I might be able to sleep.
Now, If it is still running when I have to go to work, I am going to have to stop it manually.
There is absolutely no way that I will leave it running unattended (by me.)
Good Night. Please pray for me.
And he continues in that thread to document.
Quote from: blue_energy on February 08, 2008, 05:41:33 PM
Quote from: MeggerMan on February 08, 2008, 04:57:20 PM
@Blue energy,
The MP3 was impressive - well done!
174Hz = 174 beats /second = 10440 beats / minute
8 rotor magnets passing the stator would give 1700 rpm x 8 / 60 = 226Hz
174Hz would imply a rotor speed of 1305 rpm and a stator speed of 5220 rpm.
Regards
Rob
AND - 5200 rpm could be a stator scraping once per revolution, 87 per second - which would make 174 Hz the 'first overtone': exactly an octave higher - a much more reasonable accoustic relationship.
But - Al says, very clearly, that the rotor rpm, at just that moment, was '...about 1700'. So - something isn't making complete sense. 300 rpm is a lot of variance.
Blue,I just performed an interference test on the WMV file. The WMV appears slightly different, and I get closer to 178 Hz at 4700 RPM -- near end of video. When I sample the FLV (i.e YouTube) I get 174 Hz.
I do the interference test a little different: Near the end of the video -- where there's no voice over -- I sample the audio for one second, create a loop, and then do a sweep from 170 to 185 Hz on the loop. In the attached MP3, there appears to be a lock at 178 Hz. The "ticking" in the audio is from stitching together the 1-second files.
As for RPM, I've been using 1700 and 4700 per Al's spoken comment.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@Yadaraf, @blue_energy and @MeggerMan,
This is a sound sample of my rig with only stator rotating gear wise. I span the rotor by hand as uniformly as I could to keep it at 259rpm (monitored by a laser tachometer). As you can imagine maintaining by hand a constant rpm isn't easy so it fluctuated between values some reaching 280rpm. Nevertheless, it may probably be interesting to see what this will look like in the frequency domain anhd if the recent discussion can explain the fundamental frequencies observed.
Quote from: RunningBare on February 08, 2008, 05:55:00 PM
Quote from: blue_energy on February 08, 2008, 05:41:33 PM
Quote from: MeggerMan on February 08, 2008, 04:57:20 PM
@Blue energy,
The MP3 was impressive - well done!
174Hz = 174 beats /second = 10440 beats / minute
8 rotor magnets passing the stator would give 1700 rpm x 8 / 60 = 226Hz
174Hz would imply a rotor speed of 1305 rpm and a stator speed of 5220 rpm.
Regards
Rob
AND - 5220 rpm could be a stator scraping once per revolution, 87 per second - which would make 174 Hz the 'first overtone': exactly an octave higher - a much more reasonable accoustic relationship.
But - Al says, very clearly, that the rotor rpm, at just that moment, was '...about 1700'. So - something isn't making complete sense. 300 rpm is a lot of variance.
<edit> 5220 - not 5200...
I noticed AL was taking quick readings that may have caused errors, it is also possible that "light" from the fluorescent lighting was affecting readings
I posted this before, but here is his run down test with stated rpm at each stage, I do not like the way this forum shrinks quotes to the point where I need a magnifying glass to read them, so please excuse my use of bold and italics instead.
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60132&page=17&Focus=2271368#Item_19
Nevertheless, I have started the unit. It is currently running with the rotor going counterclockwise, the two idler stators stopped (seeing each other nicely across the spinning rotor) and the "middle" stator spinning antigearwise, that is also counterclockwise in this case.
For some reason it seems to be working rather well tonight. The rotor rpm is 1334, the stator rpm is 5378. It was difficult to start, it took maybe 20 flips of the stator magnet in all before it "caught". But I am developing a thumb technique that is easier than the finger.
I started it at 02:14.
It is pretty noisy with the bearings chattering and growling, but I think I might be able to sleep.
Now, If it is still running when I have to go to work, I am going to have to stop it manually.
There is absolutely no way that I will leave it running unattended (by me.)
Good Night. Please pray for me.
And he continues in that thread to document.
Right at the end of the video he says, "OK, now we're over 4,000, almost 5,000 rpm on that small magnet" - so, the 1,700 rpm reading on the rotor earlier - which, now that I'm not listening to only pieces at a time, happened before he even stopped the secondary stators - doesn't make sense.
Quote from: FunkyJive on February 08, 2008, 12:48:04 PM
Yadaraf wrote:
Quote...because the 2nd harmonic of the power line is quite obvious at 120 Hz.
Hi Yadaraf.
Not wishing to appear overly pedantic :P but the 120Hz buzz could actually be the dominant fundamental if the hum is the result of a poorly regulated supply, or burst noise from full-wave rectification getting into the amplified mic path. I think that the latter is most likely, particularly as broad-band harmonics of burst noise are evident well into the kHz region, so the only means of filtration is a comb notch filter.
There's not so much envelope power in the higher harmonics though, so I'd guess that heterodyning shouldn't significantly impact upon your spectral analysis - but only a guess though :)
All the best,
FunkyJive
FunkyJive,Thanks for the thought: "Not wishing to appear overly pedantic :P but the 120Hz buzz could actually be the dominant fundamental if the hum is the result of a poorly regulated supply, or burst noise from full-wave rectification getting into the amplified mic path."
I used some different software to analyze Al's FLV audio. The software allowed me to capture several spectral graphs during the few seconds of acceleration [overlay 1 = start, overlay 4 = end). See attached.
With the new software it appears that a frequency shift around 170 Hz can be seen.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Hi guys
Here is the link to the last video I?ve uploaded on my youtube channel
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=TRS4_3F4lpc
It's a collection of different setup pics and some infos about my replication rig plus couple of video cuts about the rig spinning in AGW sinch and generating if not enything else , at list some interesting audio with many frequency changes that will maybe interest those of you that are into sound spectrum analisis , sadly i have no data about the rpms since I don't have jet a tachometer.
Good luck everybody with your projects
Very nice video AndreaGanora!
RE Audio analysis of second prominent tone near 850 Hz
Studying the interference at 174 Hz was easy. I'm trying the same for the 800-900 Hz tone, but it's more difficult.
In the meantime, here are some spectrum graphs acquired for the acceleration in the FLV video.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@All
Today i worked up a relocatable arm to mount a Stator on so i could work the vectors in between the existing stator mounting holes. I did this to see if any phase 1 effects would present themselves. The arm has the radius the 13 (27.69 degrees intervals) stator mounting holes. It consist of two holes, one being the locator of the radius and the other being the stator mounting.
In case anyone is interested after prelimary location tests I have seen NO phase 1 effects, but more testing will be done.
Best Regards
Bill
Quote from: AndreaGanora on February 08, 2008, 06:35:39 PM
Hi guys
Here is the link to the last video I?ve uploaded on my youtube channel
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=TRS4_3F4lpc
It's a collection of different setup pics and some infos about my replication rig plus couple of video cuts about the rig spinning in AGW sinch and generating if not enything else , at list some interesting audio with many frequency changes that will maybe interest those of you that are into sound spectrum analisis , sadly i have no data about the rpms since I don't have jet a tachometer.
Good luck everybody with your projects
Ciao Andrea,Fantastic video! Great looking rig(s). The tones you get after 05:48 are incredible. :o How close were the dogs?
You played country western music in the video. Nice. Is that popular in Italy? 8)
I like your use of rubber bands. I was considering mounting the stator to hard rubber, but rubber bands should do the same.
Keep up the excellent work. If you get any sustained operation and record it, I'd like to analyze it.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@vipond50,
Sorry, I've missed that, what's "phase 1 effects"?
Quote from: vipond50 on February 08, 2008, 07:31:56 PM
@All
Today i worked up a relocatable arm to mount a Stator on so i could work the vectors in between the existing stator mounting holes. I did this to see if any phase 1 effects would present themselves. The arm has the radius the 13 (27.69 degrees intervals) stator mounting holes. It consist of two holes, one being the locator of the radius and the other being the stator mounting.
In case anyone is interested after prelimary location tests I have seen NO phase 1 effects, but more testing will be done.
Best Regards
Bill
@vipond50
Way to go
Keep us informed on further tests .
Some pics of your adjustable stator's mounting brakets would be great
keep it up
Andrea
Pic's of Relocatable Stator Arm. Please keep in mind there is nothing special in this(Very Crude). Looking for Phase 1 effects or anything other than spin down. ;D If any changes occur I will up grade this concept to a more stable design rotating of the rotor bearing shaft assembly mounting hub.
@ Omni
Phase 1 effects is after the hand spin up and the driver stator is in AGW rotation, but the secondary stators are still spinning in AG rotation as indicated in Al's Vid # 1
Phase 2 effects is after the secondary Stators are stopped and the device is spinning up using its own energy (if you will).
Regards
Bill
@vipond50,
OK, thanks. Keep the good work.
Hi Bill, here's a crazy idea. What if you let that stator spin around the rotor while it's spinning or see what kind of effect you can get.
I got my magnets from K&J, now I just need the setup to put them in. Anyone have one for sale? I figured I'd ask here before I go to machine shops and ask around for pricing. Thanks.
Brad
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 08, 2008, 07:36:11 PM
Quote from: AndreaGanora on February 08, 2008, 06:35:39 PM
Hi guys
Here is the link to the last video I?ve uploaded on my youtube channel
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=TRS4_3F4lpc
It's a collection of different setup pics and some infos about my replication rig plus couple of video cuts about the rig spinning in AGW sinch and generating if not enything else , at list some interesting audio with many frequency changes that will maybe interest those of you that are into sound spectrum analisis , sadly i have no data about the rpms since I don't have jet a tachometer.
Good luck everybody with your projects
Ciao Andrea,
Fantastic video! Great looking rig(s). The tones you get after 05:48 are incredible. :o How close were the dogs?
You played country western music in the video. Nice. Is that popular in Italy? 8)
I like your use of rubber bands. I was considering mounting the stator to hard rubber, but rubber bands should do the same.
Keep up the excellent work. If you get any sustained operation and record it, I'd like to analyze it.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@Yada
Thanks alot
I live in a building on the second floor , I had the window open and the dog whas in the street and started barking during couple of tries , but both times he barked only when the higher tones would start.
Country western music is not very popular in Italy , even if there are alot of country music lovers here to .the music tracks I'm using in my videos are choosen between the ones included in the royalty free tracs that came whit my Pinnacle video editing program , so i was glad there whas one I liked .
About the longtherm sustained operation recording , well , the day I'll finally get some be shure You'll get to analyze it , along whit the relative video and all needded infos ;)
About the tones you mentioned, In facts while the rotor is slowing down at a certain rpms i get that acoustic as well as a somehow visual feelling that there is something peculiar about the rig's behaviour , like if the riptimic change in the noise and vibrations could be caused by some little asincrony in the device caused by a little extra push pull of the components, but I guess is just a mind trick from beyng used to correlate higher noise to higher speed or stronger momentum , but it could instead in reality just be
L.O.W. ( lods of wobble ) ;D hehehe
The day I' ll get a really clear long term sustain or even better increase in rpm I'm shure there is not going to be much space for this kind of doubts ;)
Cheers
Andrea
Quote from: bhaas on February 08, 2008, 08:22:30 PM
Hi Bill, here's a crazy idea. What if you let that stator spin around the rotor while it's spinning or see what kind of effect you can get.
I got my magnets from K&J, now I just need the setup to put them in. Anyone have one for sale? I figured I'd ask here before I go to machine shops and ask around for pricing. Thanks.
Brad
Hi Yeah Brad
Well that could get really interesting, a real finger knocker to say the least. I believe I would have to on some armer for that test ;D
No, nothing for sale yet, but maybe in couple weeks after i get burned out with this project LOL.
B.
@vipond50
Waw thank for the pics :)
Great
keep us informed
Cheers
Andrea
Quote from: Omnibus on February 08, 2008, 06:12:53 PM
@Yadaraf, @blue_energy and @MeggerMan,
This is a sound sample of my rig with only stator rotating gear wise. I span the rotor by hand as uniformly as I could to keep it at 259rpm (monitored by a laser tachometer). As you can imagine maintaining by hand a constant rpm isn't easy so it fluctuated between values some reaching 280rpm. Nevertheless, it may probably be interesting to see what this will look like in the frequency domain anhd if the recent discussion can explain the fundamental frequencies observed.
Omni,
Is there a chance you can try this again? The audio is faint and I can't tell what's happening at the low frequencies (i.e. the signal-to-noise ratio is very low).
Q1: Could you increase the volume by moving closer to the device?Q2: Could you provide a baseline at the end -- leave the recorder on for a few seconds and stop the spinning.My new software allows me capture a baseline spectra and then
subtract it from newly acquired spectra. A good baseline (no spinning, no voice .. quiet as possible) would be very helpful. ;)
The good news is that it sounds like you were able to maintain a fairly steady RPM -- even if by hand. KUDOS.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@Yadaraf,
I'm away from my rig right now but I'll do it in a bit. Your time is 3 hours earlier than mine so I hope at least it won't be in the wee hours at your place. Sorry about that.
Evening All,
Quick update on a few things. I picked up a box of SHCS 4-40 x3/4" for my Stators. Identical to Al's.
Has anyone beside myself, wonder why Al would use SHCS screws, having to grind down each head, rather than a stainless steel flat head? Splitting hairs again, perhaps, but one has to wonder why. Tomorrow afternoon, I grind a few screw heads down.
I also picked up some packets of #4 stainless washers. Identical to Al's.
I could not find any 4-40 nylon screws, only larger ones. If anyone finds some online, please post.
I also received in my ABEC 7 Rotor bearings. I will be testing both.
And of course my rotor did not arrive today. Perhaps tomorrow. It should be of the exact weight and size as Al's.
Now, about the Stewart-Warner Bearings. My bearing guy heard back from them and it turns out that they do not manufacture the bearings, they only distribute them. The people that Mike needed to speak with were in a meeting. (of course.) So Mike will contact them Monday and find out the Manufacturer of the bearings that they distribute. Then he will contact that Manufacture and order said bearings. A lot of work, but such is life. I want a working machine, so will replicate as exactly as possible. ;D
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 08, 2008, 10:13:29 PM
Evening All,
Quick update on a few things. I picked up a box of SHCS 4-40 x3/4" for my Stators. Identical to Al's.
Has anyone beside myself, wonder why Al would use SHCS screws, having to grind down each head, rather than a stainless steel flat head? Splitting hairs again, perhaps, but one has to wonder why. Tomorrow afternoon, I grind a few screw heads down.
I also picked up some packets of #4 stainless washers. Identical to Al's.
I could not find any 4-40 nylon screws, only larger ones. If anyone finds some online, please post.
I also received in my ABEC 7 Rotor bearings. I will be testing both.
And of course my rotor did not arrive today. Perhaps tomorrow. It should be of the exact weight and size as Al's.
Now, about the Stewart-Warner Bearings. My bearing guy heard back from them and it turns out that they do not manufacture the bearings, they only distribute them. The people that Mike needed to speak with were in a meeting. (of course.) So Mike will contact them Monday and find out the Manufacturer of the bearings that they distribute. Then he will contact that Manufacture and order said bearings. A lot of work, but such is life. I want a working machine, so will replicate as exactly as possible. ;D
Cheers,
Bruce
Hi Bruce
Glad to here things are coming together for U. Now if u could check to see how magnetic your SS screws are before and after. Typically manufacture screws are heat treated included SS. With all my work with stainless i.e. 304, 304L, 308, 316 and 316L grinding or machining will make them more magnetic. So this being said, if Al ground or machined his 4-40 SC screw head height's they were magnetic to some degree. If a person want to reduce the magnetic effect then they will have to heat treated again. I do this by heating to a cherry red and quickly quenching them in cold water. They will take on a color of dark to black due to the oxidizing atmosphere (air). A true heat treat would be done in a controlled Atmosphere furnace.
Best Regards
Bill
Quote from: Omnibus on February 08, 2008, 09:05:17 PM
@Yadaraf,
I'm away from my rig right now but I'll do it in a bit. Your time is 3 hours earlier than mine so I hope at least it won't be in the wee hours at your place. Sorry about that.
Omni,Not a problem. I bumped up the signal on your original audio and applied a ~100 Hz high pass filter. It helped slightly, but I amplified a lot of "noise" as well. Can't really tell a lot.
Attached is an analysis of your latest audio, but don't read too much into it.
RE 3 hours must put you on the East coast. :D
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: vipond50 on February 08, 2008, 10:29:14 PM
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 08, 2008, 10:13:29 PM
Evening All,
Quick update on a few things. I picked up a box of SHCS 4-40 x3/4" for my Stators. Identical to Al's.
Has anyone beside myself, wonder why Al would use SHCS screws, having to grind down each head, rather than a stainless steel flat head? Splitting hairs again, perhaps, but one has to wonder why. Tomorrow afternoon, I grind a few screw heads down.
I also picked up some packets of #4 stainless washers. Identical to Al's.
I could not find any 4-40 nylon screws, only larger ones. If anyone finds some online, please post.
I also received in my ABEC 7 Rotor bearings. I will be testing both.
And of course my rotor did not arrive today. Perhaps tomorrow. It should be of the exact weight and size as Al's.
Now, about the Stewart-Warner Bearings. My bearing guy heard back from them and it turns out that they do not manufacture the bearings, they only distribute them. The people that Mike needed to speak with were in a meeting. (of course.) So Mike will contact them Monday and find out the Manufacturer of the bearings that they distribute. Then he will contact that Manufacture and order said bearings. A lot of work, but such is life. I want a working machine, so will replicate as exactly as possible. ;D
Cheers,
Bruce
Hi Bruce
Glad to here things are coming together for U. Now if u could check to see how magnetic your SS screws are before and after. Typically manufacture screws are heat treated included SS. With all my work with stainless i.e. 304, 304L, 308, 316 and 316L grinding or machining will make them more magnetic. So this being said, if Al ground or machined his 4-40 SC screw head height's they were magnetic to some degree. If a person want to reduce the magnetic effect then they will have to heat treated again. I do this by heating to a cherry red and quickly quenching them in cold water. They will take on a color of dark to black due to the oxidizing atmosphere (air). A true heat treat would be done in a controlled Atmosphere furnace.
Best Regards
Bill
Hi Bill,
That is the best explanation, the one that you give. And from Al's post's, he would be the kind of guy to do such a thing for that very reason. As Ken posted earlier, these SHCS Screws are VERY magnetic. In other words a magnet is easily attracted to them.
What is cool, in my mind, is how so many things are opposite of what one would think. The screws, and the steel bearings.
Cheers,
Bruce
@Bruce_TPU,
As you know, I agree that it's very, very important to reproduce the device exactly. Again, I'm afraid we still don't know some crucial facts about it. As seen, @alsetalokin disappeared altogether (what else is new) although his presence lately was hardly of any help. If he were a normal researcher he would report back if he's able to still reproduce what we saw in his first video and should try to make a replica of his working device with exact specification and place of origin of the few details this contraption consist of. That's not too much to ask from any researcher let alone from a researcher with such claims. The lack of activity in this respect leaves him open to all kinds of unfavorable for him speculations.
.
RE .. 5th Harmonic
The second higher tone might be the 5th harmonic of the lower tone. (e.g. 870 Hz is the 5th harmonic of 174 Hz)
Earlier I thought the LO and HI dominant tones were related to rotor and stator bearing noise respectively, but now I'm thinking that the lower tone of 174 Hz is from general stator "chatter" and the higher tone is its harmonic. I don't see how either can be bearing race noise -- much too loud.
I'll collect more data and do a regression analysis on the LO/HI pairs.
... Q1: What is the significance of a dominant 5th harmonic?
... Q2: @FunkyJive, what do you know about the 5th harmonic in general?
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@Yadaraf,
Here's the sound bit this time with tails of background. Also, who knows, I've become a little more skilled in turning the rotor by hand so I could keep it almost within 240-260rpm range. Sorry for the delay. And, yes, I'm on the east coast--NYC.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 08, 2008, 11:48:47 PM
@Yadaraf,
Here's the sound bit this time with tails of background. Also, who knows, I've become a little more skilled in turning the rotor by hand so I could keep it almost within 240-260rpm range. Sorry for the delay. And, yes, I'm on the east coast--NYC.
Omni,Here you go. I think the baseline worked well. ;) Note in the baseline that is a persistent spike.
Not sure what you can conclude, however ...
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@Yadaraf,
Thanks. Now, the purpose of this exercise is to see whether we can recover the rpm of the stator and rotor from the audio spectrum of the device.
Thus, we know that the rotor turns at ~250rpm and therefore the stator turns at ~4 x 250 = 1000rpm. Let?s see if this is what we?ll get from the spectrum.
First clear peak is at 963Hz which may mean that 963 times per second or 963 x 60 times per minute there was an event (for instance, passing of a pole of the rotor by the stator). A rotor has 8 poles, therefore, every minute there were (963 x 60)/8 = 7222 full turns of rotor or the rotor was spinning at 7222rpm. Not so, though, as is known from the condition of this problem. Therefore, this peak tells us nothing about the rotor rate of rotation. Neither for rate of spinning of the stator.
One may consider one earlier peak at around 600Hz but then again (600 x 60)/8 = 4500rpm. Nowhere near the known rates of rotation of rotor and stator.
The peaks in kHz region aren?t even first and second harmonic and are obviously to be excluded for the purpose of this exercise.
Therefore, a spectrum such as this cannot serve as a measurement of the rotor and stator rpm but gives a more general fingerprint of the acoustic behavior of the device probably more reflective of things such as the inexactness of the bearings causing a clatter due to wobbling, different noises due to friction losses, general vibration of the structure etc.
Probably, it will be interesting to compare it to the previous spectra of the same device (taken during its wind down) but I guess the conclusion will be the same?the wind down spectra only show the general acoustic behavior of the device during that period of wind down.
This is what seems to be the most plausible conclusion from this spectral analysis. What do you think?
.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 09, 2008, 12:58:31 AM
@Yadaraf,
Thanks. Now, the purpose of this exercise is to see whether we can recover the rpm of the stator and rotor from the audio spectrum of the device.
Thus, we know that the rotor turns at ~250rpm and therefore the stator turns at ~4 x 250 = 1000rpm. Let?s see if this is what we?ll get from the spectrum.
First clear peak is at 963Hz which may mean that 963 times per second or 963 x 60 times per minute there was an event (for instance, passing of a pole of the rotor by the stator). A rotor has 8 poles, therefore, every minute there were (963 x 60)/8 = 7222 full turns of rotor or the rotor was spinning at 7222rpm. Not so, though. Therefore, this peak tells us nothing about the rotor. Neither for rate of spinning of the stator.
One may consider one earlier peak at around 600Hz but then again (600 x 60)/8 = 4500rpm. Nowhere near the known rates of rotation of rotor and stator.
The peaks in kHz region aren?t even first and second harmonic and are obviously to be excluded for the purposes of this exercise.
Therefore, a spectrum such as this cannot serve as a measurement of the rotor and stator rpm but gives a more general fingerprint of the acoustic behavior of the device probably more reflective of things such as the inexactness of the bearings causing a clatter due to wobbling, different noises due to friction losses, general vibration of the structure etc.
Probably, it will be interesting to compare it to the previous spectra of the same device (taken during its wind down) but I guess the conclusion will be the same?the wind down spectra only show the general acoustic behavior of the device during that period of wind down.
This is what seems to be the most plausible conclusion from this spectral analysis. What do you think?
Omni,See my hypothesis on the 5th harmonic.
FunkyJive's a musician and might have an observation. What doesn't fit, however, is that the amplitude of the 5th -- if that's what it is -- is higher than the fundamental.
...
5th harmonic: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg76194.html#msg76194
I keep thinking of CLaNZeR's video in which he discusses bearing noise. Great video as usual. The noise -- and tones like in Andrea's rig -- are peculiar to be sure.
...
Bearing Noise: http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSBearingnoise.wmv
I agree that the HI/LO tones probably are not related to race noise. Also, recall that Bruce's rig did not have spinning stators, and it still generated interesting tones. I'm scratching my head. ???
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 09, 2008, 12:17:57 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 08, 2008, 11:48:47 PM
@Yadaraf,
Here's the sound bit this time with tails of background. Also, who knows, I've become a little more skilled in turning the rotor by hand so I could keep it almost within 240-260rpm range. Sorry for the delay. And, yes, I'm on the east coast--NYC.
Omni,
Here you go. I think the baseline worked well. ;) Note in the baseline that is a persistent spike.
Not sure what you can conclude, however ...
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Wow! Just back from seeing Victor Lamont Wooten in concert in a
bar! My God! To be able to play like that...
OK - I just stopped in to say to
Omnibus:
If you want to compare apples to apples - your rig to Alsetalokin's - you need to spin the stator up to 5220 rpm. All rotor or stator dependent frequencies will vary with the speed of the stator and or rotor. That was the significance of the 174 Hertz test: Al's rig only produces the 174 Hz tone when spinning at full speed - and we can hear it slowly rev up to that. If your rig and Al's are identical, you won't get that harmonic unless your rig is spinning the same speed his was - which we, at least, think we've narrowed down to 5,220 on the stator and 1,305 on the rotor. I think it's quite likely that there are other frequencies which are movement related as well.
Do you have any means at your disposal to speed the rotor up to 1305? Dremel buffer? Compressed air?
I'm going to try speeding up your audio to attempt to simulate somewhere around 1305. If it was at 250 rpm, I'll quadruple the speed to raise it to 1,000 rpm. That should also increase whatever sound is there by 2 octaves - which might make it stand out. Unfortunately, I don't have the skill to figure out what I'd have to do get it to 1,305. Octaves are easy because each octave up is double the current frequency.
I don't hold out too much hope for this plan, however. It's a hack - but it's a cludge. It would be better if you could produce a test sample which is the same speed as Alsetalokin's.
Quote from: blue_energy on February 09, 2008, 01:21:34 AM
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 09, 2008, 12:17:57 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 08, 2008, 11:48:47 PM
@Yadaraf,
Here's the sound bit this time with tails of background. Also, who knows, I've become a little more skilled in turning the rotor by hand so I could keep it almost within 240-260rpm range. Sorry for the delay. And, yes, I'm on the east coast--NYC.
Omni,
Here you go. I think the baseline worked well. ;) Note in the baseline that is a persistent spike.
Not sure what you can conclude, however ...
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Wow! Just back from seeing Victor Lamont Wooten in concert in a bar! My God! To be able to play like that...
OK - I just stopped in to say to Omnibus:
If you want to compare apples to apples - your rig to Alsetalokin's - you need to spin the stator up to 5220 rpm. All rotor or stator dependent frequencies will vary with the speed of the stator and or rotor. That was the significance of the 174 Hertz test: Al's rig only produces the 174 Hz tone when spinning at full speed - and we can hear it slowly rev up to that. If your rig and Al's are identical, you won't get that harmonic unless your rig is spinning the same speed his was - which we, at least, think we've narrowed down to 5,220 on the stator and 1,305 on the rotor. I think it's quite likely that there are other frequencies which are movement related as well.
Do you have any means at your disposal to speed the rotor up to 1305? Dremel buffer? Compressed air?
I'm going to try speeding up your audio to attempt to simulate somewhere around 1305. If it was at 250 rpm, I'll quadruple the speed to raise it to 1,000 rpm. That should also increase whatever sound is there by 2 octaves - which might make it stand out. Unfortunately, I don't have the skill to figure out what I'd have to do get it to 1,305. Octaves are easy because each octave up is double the current frequency.
I don't hold out too much hope for this plan, however. It's a hack - but it's a cludge. It would be better if you could produce a test sample which is the same speed as Alsetalokin's.
Blue,Bela Fleck is awesome. One of my favs. Just got into them a couple of years ago.
Q: What's your reference for 5220 RPM? @02:57 on the WMV video I can read "4733" on the LCD and hear Al say: "OK, so now we're over 4000 -- almost 5000 RPM on that small magnet."
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@blue_energy,
Sorry to bother you with this boring stuff after such an inspiring evening you had. Yes, I understand that but my only goal was to see if we can connect somehow the rpm with the spectral pattern. We can't, it turned out. As for the 174Hz you're right, the conditions have to be kept the same to "hear" that tone. Unfortunately, I don't have anything here to accomplish that save the fact that things such as a Dremel will introduce additional noise which will interfere (not sure it can be filtered good). Anyway, I don't see comparing the acoustic characteristics of the device being of much use for its successful replication but I may be wrong. Do you think any successful machines would sound the same? Do, say, working internal combustion engines have common major acoustic patterns?
RE Harmonics
I performed an FFT on the 4700 RPM audio (4733?) and then applied a harmonic ruler to the far left peak (176.6 Hz).
The peak at 871.7 Hz looks 5th to me. ;D
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
EDIT: Hmmm. I didn't do anything and now I notice the figure is missing. Mods? What happened? Dunno, so reposted, but had to create a new image name. FYI previous image(s) had been viewed 136 times.
EDIT: If there is a 5th, where are the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th? In any event, during acceleration a frequency shift is observed in both the low tone and the high tone, so they are coupled.
EDIT: Note the vertical black lines are superimposed harmonic ruler lines.
RE: CSI Yadaraf and the Fifth Harmonic
While investigating the Fifth Harmonic in rotating devices, I found an article in Mechanical Engineering Magazine that discusses "unusual speeds" in motors . There might be some relevance.
=====
"For the fifth harmonic of the incoming current, 300 electrical degrees separate the pole/phase groups, Bourne said. That's five times the separation of the fundamental phases. But 300 degrees is really minus 60 degrees for a periodic function, Bourne explained.
So adjacent phases of the fundamental and the harmonic frequencies are exactly opposite. For a three-phase machine, that means that the fifth harmonic creates a field of the same number of poles as the fundamental, but with a negative phase sequence, Bourne said. And that field rotates counter to the fundamental, at five times the speed.
Similar arguments apply to other harmonics, Bourne said. In a three-phase machine, multiples of the third harmonic are neutral, producing no negative effect, but making no contribution either. Harmonics 5, 11, 17, and so on produce reverse sequence currents. Harmonics 7, 13, 19, etc., produce nonsynchronous forward sequence currents, he said.
"Ask any motor person in the world what happens when you run a motor on the fifth harmonic," said Isaiah Cox, CEO of Chorus. "They will tell you it runs in reverse at five times the speed. It is gospel."
====
... http://www.memagazine.org/mepower01/5thharm/5thharm.html
CSI Yadaraf on the scene. ;D
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
RE: CSI Yadaraf and the Fifth Harmonic (redux)
I took 25 samples of the HI and LO tones during acceleration in the WMV file. Here's the data.
S LO HI Ratio
=====================
01 164.19 826.34 5.03
02 166.88 826.34 4.95
03 166.88 820.95 4.92
04 166.88 831.72 4.98
05 166.88 839.79 5.03
06 166.88 839.79 5.03
07 169.57 831.72 4.90
08 169.57 837.10 4.94
09 169.57 845.18 4.98
10 169.57 847.87 5.00
11 170.92 841.14 4.92
12 170.92 843.83 4.94
13 170.92 857.29 5.02
14 170.92 846.52 4.95
15 172.27 847.87 4.92
16 172.27 850.56 4.94
17 172.27 850.56 4.94
18 172.27 864.02 5.02
19 174.96 866.71 4.95
20 174.96 864.02 4.94
21 174.96 869.40 4.97
22 174.96 866.71 4.95
23 174.96 866.71 4.95
24 177.65 866.71 4.88
25 177.65 872.09 4.91
Note the ratio at each sample is very similar. The average ratio is 4.96 (i.e. 5:1). To me this suggests a fifth harmonic.
If the HI and LO tones were related to the speeds of the rotor and stator, then I think we should expect a ratio closer to 4:1, not 5:1.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Some new Videos, these new Stator bearings are great!
First big one for Yada, some sound samples.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeR-OCPM-YADA.wmv
Or Youtube: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=D9v9ISMlj1g
Next one shows how easy it is to latch into AGW, including all 3 stators going AGW at over 1500RPM.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSNewBearingsLatch.wmv
Or Youtube: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VE3aboJWhY0
New Rotor Dimensions, ummm why did I bother LOL.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSNew18mmRotor.wmv
Or Youtube: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9XG9MaLXVVg
Cheers
Sean.
RE: Not harmonics but possibly SUB-harmonics?
A new hypothesis: the HI tone is fundamental and the LO tone is a subharmonic.
This makes some sense, and in fact the HI tone is often higher in amplitude than the LO tone.
(NOTE: I seem to be talking to myself on this matter. ;D Anyone's comment is welcome.)
CSI Yadaraf on the scene.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on February 09, 2008, 02:32:59 PM
Some new Videos, these new Stator bearings are great!
First big one for Yada, some sound samples.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeR-OCPM-YADA.wmv
Or Youtube: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=D9v9ISMlj1g
Next one shows how easy it is to latch into AGW, including all 3 stators going AGW at over 1500RPM.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSNewBearingsLatch.wmv
Or Youtube: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VE3aboJWhY0
New Rotor Dimensions, ummm why did I bother LOL.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSNew18mmRotor.wmv
Or Youtube: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9XG9MaLXVVg
Cheers
Sean.
CLaNZeR,Copy that. I'm headed out for a few hours, but will most certainly get to it this evening. It sounds great! Sampling should be a breeze. Thanks. ;D
...
Q: Sean, do you know anything about this saying?"Ask any motor person in the world what happens when you
run a motor on the fifth harmonic," said Isaiah Cox, CEO of Chorus. "They will tell you it runs in reverse at
five times the speed. It is gospel."
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 09, 2008, 03:30:08 PM
... Q: Sean, do you know anything about this saying?
"Ask any motor person in the world what happens when you run a motor on the fifth harmonic," said Isaiah Cox, CEO of Chorus. "They will tell you it runs in reverse at five times the speed. It is gospel."
I have seen this before from people selling Motor Protectors and they mention faile safe against the 5th harmonic as a feature.
Quick search on google brings up loads and even part of some FAQ's
http://www.myronzucker.com/faq.html#q10
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on February 09, 2008, 03:41:06 PM
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 09, 2008, 03:30:08 PM
... Q: Sean, do you know anything about this saying?
"Ask any motor person in the world what happens when you run a motor on the fifth harmonic," said Isaiah Cox, CEO of Chorus. "They will tell you it runs in reverse at five times the speed. It is gospel."
I have seen this before from people selling Motor Protectors and they mention faile safe against the 5th harmonic as a feature.
Quick search on google brings up loads and even part of some FAQ's
http://www.myronzucker.com/faq.html#q10
Cheers
Sean.
CLaNZeR,Thanks. The fact that you've heard the saying is encouraging to me. If you would, please keep an open mind about the effect of a fifth harmonic on the WhipMag. From what I gather, it produces "run-away" and overspeeding, but might be needed for these devices. Al's device appears to demonstrate something like it.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 09, 2008, 03:14:46 PM
...
(NOTE: I seem to be talking to myself on this matter. ;D Anyone's comment is welcome.)
CSI Yadaraf on the scene.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Well done Yadaraf. CSI indeed. 8)
Following one of your references I found the following excerpt:
==============================================================
http://www.memagazine.org/mepower01/5thharm/5thharm.html (http://www.memagazine.org/mepower01/5thharm/5thharm.html)
For the fifth harmonic of the incoming current, 300 electrical degrees separate the pole/phase groups, Bourne said. That's five times the separation of the fundamental phases. But 300 degrees is really minus 60 degrees for a periodic function, Bourne explained.
So adjacent phases of the fundamental and the harmonic frequencies are exactly opposite. For a three-phase machine, that means that the fifth harmonic creates a field of the same number of poles as the fundamental, but with a negative phase sequence, Bourne said. And that field rotates counter to the fundamental, at five times the speed.
==============================================================
In January on Fizzx.com I wrote (http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?t=305&highlight=):
==============================================================
I believe that AGW stator rotation is the point where power being consumed becomes power being gained.
If my belief is correct it follows that anyone who achieves AGW has in fact managed to draw power from the magnetic potential, the magnetic pressure of the environment.
Of course merely achieving AGW will not guarantee the kind of continuous running that Alan has shown us.
To achieve continuous running the power input has to be greater than the power output, obviously; has to be greater in other words that the losses due to windage (air resistance), friction in the bearings, eddy currents and any other losses I haven't thought of.
If the onset of AGW does mark the point at which power is being obtained from the environment then there should be a change in the slowdown of the central rotor.
==============================================================
This move to the fifth harmonic seems to be the key to reversing the travel around the BH loop from the refrigeration cycle already well understood to the power cycle which Steorn have been attempting to harness.
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/AlsetalokinPowerBHloop.jpg (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/AlsetalokinPowerBHloop.jpg)
Well i think is time that Al say something, its all a big smoke screen ;)
And it cost people money and time.
Regards
Quote from: crash_uni8 on February 08, 2008, 12:45:33 PM
hi everyone i was watching the video again and around 2:09 through 2:11 someone says something... does anyone know what he says?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIvZJ9xGutI
The background voice appears to be asking "Aren't those too high?"
8)
Good Afternoon all,
Received MY rotor in today! (Finally! I am very happy! LOL)
A couple of weights and measures only, for now.
Rotor Weight
228 grams
Magnet Weights
24 grams
Bearings
2 grams
Total = 254 Grams I am very satisfied with that. Only 4 grams short.
Stator Bearing Assembly Weight
10 grams Perfect!
Separation between rotor edge and stator
5 mm Perfect!
I still need to grind screw heads. I will start on that tomorrow. I hope for live testing next week. I will have to use golf tees until I find the proper nylon 4-40 screws, for the dampers.
@ Sean
Are you using lubricant for any of your bearings?
@ Harvey
Is there a chance that Al's effect could be caused by induced current into the bearings, visa via the rotor magnets. And then with the magnet above, together, the stator acting as a homopolar generator?
If so, then using a non conductive lubricant could screw up the works?
To lube or not to lube, that is the question!?!? ;)
Cheers,
Bruce
@CLaNZeR,
Great videos. As always. I gotta tell you, the behavior of your rig is exactly as mine (I like the addition of the rosette in yours) regarding the AGW lock. Now we should consider established that achieving AGW lock isn?t a problem but that?s not the crucial factor for the effect of acceleration to appear as we were led to believe by @alsetalokin. There must be something else working in concert with the AGW lock to bring in the effect. The good news is that we only have just a few parameters to tinker with in exploring what that 'something else' might be. The bad news is that it isn?t straightforward to fiddle with the magnetic field which is one of the parameters or to second guess what exact company the proper bearings come from. One thing we may do, though, is to start from a lower rotor weight and start adding pieces of plastic or lead or whatever to see if we could reach a happier weight.
I?m not sure what @Yadaraf is trying to achieve with his 5-th harmonic (as far as I understand that?s detrimental for the motor?s run) but it?ll be interesting to see how different your and my rig will sound having in mind that, all the rest probably the same, my base is thicker (almost 18mm) and your bearings come probably from a different source than mine.
P.S. You wouldn't have any rpm vs. time curves taken with your tachometer with and without AGW lock, would you? It'll be interesting to see how they compare at the very beginning of the AGW lock. I remember in your earlier graphs you published here there were some peculiarities worth paying attention, I think.
@Grimer,
You posted somewhere the following:
" I believe that AGW stator rotation is the point where power being consumed becomes power being gained. "
That isn't obvious, however. Could you please elaborate on that?
@Harvey,
Your commentaries are quite interesting, as long as they are backed up by evidence:
QuoteThe sum total of field densities for any three magnets in interaction should not change. However a differential between the approaching fields and the retreating fields is highly possible. This would indicate a higher 'relative density' in the approach zone and a lower 'relative density' in the retreat zone. And this differential is where I believe we are receiving our gains. It would be a form of doppler compression of a gradient field.
Is this ?differential between the approaching fields and the retreating fields? just a conjecture you?re making or you have some further evidence for it other than the analogy with doppler compression of a gradient field?
In this connection I also saw this:
QuoteThe discussion really amounts to flux dispersion. Since force is proportional to density, higher density has greater force. When magnets are in an attractive state space between them is altered and flux follows the preferred path filling the cantenoid region which raises the density between them. Conversely when magnets are in a repulsive state the space is altered such that the flux is spread out thus less dense. However, as the distance between the repelling magnets shorten, the flux between them compresses filling the catenoid region and thus increasing the density and force.
Consequently for most tests the attraction will be greater for a given distance but at the surface (provided you can determine accurately the point of contact in repulsive mode) you will find the forces to be equal yet opposite.
And this
QuoteAnyone see my torque comment on Fizzx? This is another interesting thing. The decent to negative torque is a gradual one but the ascent to postive torque is extremly sharp and near vertical. It is conceivable that in Al's device the expected negative torque is never reached - sorta like a capacitor discharging (curves are very similar) it never fully does. In this scenario we find a gain. Just thinking outloud again.
Again, this has to be explained more thoroughly. The implied lack of symmetry between the attractive and repulsive forces isn?t obvious to me. If that were the case it seems that all of us should have observed an effect similar to that shown by @alsetalokin?s because the configurations are almost exactly as his. We don?t, however. One possible cause may be that we?re still unable to achieve conditions whereby that excess energy is sufficient to overcome the tremendous energy losses created in or particular devices. However, it isn?t obvious to me that our losses are greater than those in @alsetalokin?s device?same screeching sounds there, same wobbling etc.
@Harvey,
This also needs more explanation: http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=2466#2466 .This isn't measured torque, right? How did you calculate it?
EDIT: Also, this: http://urad.net/forums/gallery/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=4 . The magnet equatorials obtained using Magnetic Film are quite an illustration. Couldn't you obtain that for a real disposition of stator vs. rotor magnets? As for the Lissajou traces, how did you take them exactly. Maybe that's the measurement @alsetalokin should do and we should try to reproduce it. If you recall, I was suggesting simply measuring the kgauss at a given distance from rotor (respectively from stators) at, say, 1 degree increment and compare it to a similar measurement with @alsetalokin's device.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 09, 2008, 08:46:17 PM
@Grimer,
You posted somewhere the following:
" I believe that AGW stator rotation is the point where power being consumed becomes power being gained. "
That isn't obvious, however. Could you please elaborate on that?
I have done in Reply 2365 on the previous page (page 158) of this
"Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??" thread.
Since writing that post I have also realised where the large acceleration in Alsetalokin's 1st video comes from. The AGW stator is driving the rotor magnets in the power direction around the minor BH loop.
The other two GW magnets are holding the AGW magnet back. They are driving the rotor magnets in the "refrigeration" direction around the minor BH loop. They are acting as a brake. They are providing negative strain energy. When they are stopped this brake is released and the energy piles in to the rotor which speeds up to the point where the AGW power balanced friction and windage losses,
Quote from: Grimer on February 10, 2008, 12:03:57 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 09, 2008, 08:46:17 PM
@Grimer,
You posted somewhere the following:
" I believe that AGW stator rotation is the point where power being consumed becomes power being gained. "
That isn't obvious, however. Could you please elaborate on that?
I have done in Reply 2365 on the previous page (page 158) of this "Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??" thread.
Since writing that post I have also realised where the large acceleration in Alsetalokin's 1st video comes from. The AGW stator is driving the rotor magnets in the power direction around the minor BH loop.
The other two GW magnets are holding the AGW magnet back. They are driving the rotor magnets in the "refrigeration" direction around the minor BH loop. They are acting as a brake. They are providing negative strain energy. When they are stopped this brake is released and the energy piles in to the rotor which speeds up to the point where the AGW power balanced friction and windage losses,
@Grimer,
First off, I hope we?ll stay with the regular field terminology and will avoid the reciprocal ?gamma atmosphere? view because not only that it?s not widely accepted but doesn?t seem to contribute anything new and only appears to confuse the issue. Correct me if I?m wrong.
Now, having said that, I treat the H-B hystheresis loop in the usual sense. Thus, as far as I can see you?re arbitrarily pronouncing one of the fields (say, that of the rotor) as the H-field, that is, the field causing the magnetization of the other part (respectively, the stator) and you are studying the created B-field in the other part (the stator) as a function of that H-field.
So, this H-B hystheresis loop is a different loop from the one each magnet in the rig is characterized by?that is, a loop enclosing an area whose magnitude gives the energy that has been spent to create the permanent magnet with the given induction. That area is untouchable, however. The excess energy we?re talking about which this rig allegedly creates cannot come at the expense of decreasing that area. That should be taken as an axiom and the energy to create the permanent magnets should never be invoked as an explanation of the excess energy we?re seeking.
As far as I can see, you?re calling your H-B dependence for some reason an adiabatic loop while it seems to me it should be called, if at all, either isothermic or isobaric, depending on what you intend to study. I don?t see in this case where the boundary between the system and the environment is which would prevent exchange of heat with the environment, to make the system adiabatic.
So now, up to here we?re into the terminology phase. We have to understand clearly what we really mean under the different terms we use.
Now, stemming from the above I don?t understand at all the ?power direction? and the ?refrigeration direction? mentioned by you. Notwithstanding the fact that even if such a view were correct there should be a full symmetry between the outcomes from these two purported directions. Thus, I don?t see at all how this picture would explain the central issue here?the production of excess energy.
RE: Lego Version of the WhipMag -- No Kidding
I spent two hours today developing an educational version of the WhipMag using nothing but Lego bricks and Lego magnets. It spins and makes "magnet noise" just like the other WhipMags I've listened to. And yes, it is addictive to play with.
It's 100% functional and costs less than $50 to build for those of you who would like to investigate some of the principles of this intriguing device -- or spend time with your kids while everyone learns.
CLaNZeR eat you heart out. ;D
... Adjustable rotor magnets. :o
... Adjustable stator magnets. :o
... Flexible and extendable design. ::)
... Very colorful, educational, and backed by Lego. 8)
See it on YouTube!
... Lego WhipMag Video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=r4-nFd6t9xw (http://youtube.com/watch?v=r4-nFd6t9xw)
Here are some pics of the new Lego "rig."
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Yada
You are beautiful!
@ Omnibus
> Now, having said that, I treat the H-B hysteresis loop in the usual sense.
> Thus, as far as I can see you?re arbitrarily pronouncing one of the fields
> (say, that of the rotor) as the H-field, that is, the field causing the
> magnetization of the other part (respectively, the stator) and you are
> studying the created B-field in the other part (the stator) as a function
> of that H-field.
Nope. The stator magnets are the H field the more powerful magnets and operating over their reversible linear range. The rotor magnets are the B-field and operating over their non-linear range.
When I use the terms adiabatic and isothermal I am using them as an analogy with the Carnot cycle.
The area inside the BH loop is not heat energy but magnetic field energy. This is accepted and you will find plenty of references to this. If you go round BH loop one way you gain energy, if you go round it the other you loose energy. This must be true of the BH loop as it is of the Carnot loop. It is a mathematical necessity. It is nothing to do with the exchange of heat, (thermal energy) with the environment but the exchange of magnetic energy (magnetic "heat") between the H field, which IS the environment as far as the B field magnets (the rotor magnets) are concerned, and the B field.
The loop in the limit must comprise two elements, a quasi-isothermal (note the word quasi) and a quasi-adiabatic) slope. In fact the curve is continuous between the two, more quasi-isothermal at one end and more quasi-adiabatic at the other.
> Thus, I don?t see at all how this picture would explain the central issue
> here?the production of excess energy.
Evidently.
It may help you to read the relevant threads on the Steorn forum,
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60285&page=1#Item_1
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60271&page=1#Item_1
@Grimer,
Let's start from the beginning. The H-B loop you refer to isn't the usually observed H-B loop which relates an external H field producing the B field in the permanent magnets, correct? The permanent magnets we use are already made, energy has been spent to produce them and so on. The H-B field which you have in mind is something different--you arbitrarily (I understand it's stronger but still that's an arbitrary choice) choose the field of the stators to be the H field, an H field other than the H field that produced the permanent magnetism in the rotor magnet, and this H field causes some B field in the rotors other than the B field which is already there to begin with because these are permanent magnets from the get go, correct? Let's establish this difference first and then go from there.
Quote from: ask on February 10, 2008, 02:30:50 AM
Yada
You are beautiful!
ask ,Thanks. If you build the Lego device you will most definitely have fun trying things out. Playing around with the oscillating stator is most fun -- especially adding Neos to it, and moving it away from the rotor. You can find tiny circular Neos at an educational store in your city. They are from Dowling Magnets.
I hope some kids start playing with the Lego WhipMag, because one of them might stumble into something interesting. In any event, they will have fun studying magnetism.
Lastly, I have immediate access to Lego parts -- $8 per pound -- but there are eBay-like sites where you can buy parts. At the store, a pack of eight Lego magnets costs $8 (two packs required), the Lego base costs $10, the fun of playing with your own WhipMag instead of just reading about it -- priceless. ;D
... BrinckLink.com : http://www.brinklink.com (http://www.brinklink.com)
... BrickShelf.com: http://www.brickshelf.com (http://www.brickshelf.com)
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Grimer on February 09, 2008, 04:24:05 PM
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 09, 2008, 03:14:46 PM
...
(NOTE: I seem to be talking to myself on this matter. ;D Anyone's comment is welcome.)
CSI Yadaraf on the scene.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Well done Yadaraf. CSI indeed. 8)
Following one of your references I found the following excerpt:
==============================================================
http://www.memagazine.org/mepower01/5thharm/5thharm.html (http://www.memagazine.org/mepower01/5thharm/5thharm.html)
For the fifth harmonic of the incoming current, 300 electrical degrees separate the pole/phase groups, Bourne said. That's five times the separation of the fundamental phases. But 300 degrees is really minus 60 degrees for a periodic function, Bourne explained.
So adjacent phases of the fundamental and the harmonic frequencies are exactly opposite. For a three-phase machine, that means that the fifth harmonic creates a field of the same number of poles as the fundamental, but with a negative phase sequence, Bourne said. And that field rotates counter to the fundamental, at five times the speed.
==============================================================
In January on Fizzx.com I wrote (http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?t=305&highlight=):
==============================================================
I believe that AGW stator rotation is the point where power being consumed becomes power being gained.
If my belief is correct it follows that anyone who achieves AGW has in fact managed to draw power from the magnetic potential, the magnetic pressure of the environment.
Of course merely achieving AGW will not guarantee the kind of continuous running that Alan has shown us.
To achieve continuous running the power input has to be greater than the power output, obviously; has to be greater in other words that the losses due to windage (air resistance), friction in the bearings, eddy currents and any other losses I haven't thought of.
If the onset of AGW does mark the point at which power is being obtained from the environment then there should be a change in the slowdown of the central rotor.
==============================================================
This move to the fifth harmonic seems to be the key to reversing the travel around the BH loop from the refrigeration cycle already well understood to the power cycle which Steorn have been attempting to harness.
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/AlsetalokinPowerBHloop.jpg (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/AlsetalokinPowerBHloop.jpg)
Grimer,Welcome, first of all.
At this point I'm making observations on what I consider to be objective information -- the audio in Al's video. Sadly, I don't think we have much objective information on Al's rig -- there seems to be confusion on parts, design, etc. I'm taking a reverse-engineering approach with the audio data: characterize what Al's machine sounded like and apply engineering principles to achieve the same sound.
Therefore I can say only that I "observed" a fifth harmonic (or subharmonic), but I can't say that it helped or hindered the device. We know that Al's device ran with the phenomenon and it might have run better without it. Who can say?
I think it's interesting to note that the fifth harmonic is a function of 360 degree geometry (e.g. Als' rotor).
Q: How do think B-H curve is affected by the fifth?Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 10, 2008, 01:20:16 AM
RE: Lego Version of the WhipMag -- No Kidding
I spent two hours today developing an educational version of the WhipMag using nothing but Lego bricks and Lego magnets. It spins and makes "magnet noise" just like the other WhipMags I've listened to. And yes, it is addictive to play with.
FANTASTIC ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 09, 2008, 06:19:04 PM
@ Sean
Are you using lubricant for any of your bearings?
Hi Bruce
Well done on going for the exact Rep specs and look forward too more results.
With my bearings I tend to soak them in thinners to break down the manafacturers packing grease and then blow them out with an airline, making sure I hold the bearing and do not let it spin. Then I use a very think oil that is used on sewing machines.
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 09, 2008, 08:36:10 PM
P.S. You wouldn't have any rpm vs. time curves taken with your tachometer with and without AGW lock, would you? It'll be interesting to see how they compare at the very beginning of the AGW lock. I remember in your earlier graphs you published here there were some peculiarities worth paying attention, I think.
Hi Omni
I plan on doing some new wind down tests and tacho charts with new rig, but think it will have too wait till next weekend due to time :(
Be interesting too see though the difference and also I still want too see the wind down difference with and without the Dampners now I have the correct ones.
Cheers
Sean.
@CLaNZeR,
Did you try Liquid Wrench Penetrating and Lubricating Oil? It was like night and day--bearings that had no intention of AGW started latching like hell. When I applied it to the rotor at one point it was too good--hindered somewhat the AGW locking. After a while it got back to itself and now latching-wise all is good. To no avail, though. Where is this darn acceleration?
Quote from: CLaNZeR on February 10, 2008, 05:18:08 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 09, 2008, 08:36:10 PM
P.S. You wouldn't have any rpm vs. time curves taken with your tachometer with and without AGW lock, would you? It'll be interesting to see how they compare at the very beginning of the AGW lock. I remember in your earlier graphs you published here there were some peculiarities worth paying attention, I think.
Hi Omni
I plan on doing some new wind down tests and tacho charts with new rig, but think it will have too wait till next weekend due to time :(
Be interesting too see though the difference and also I still want too see the wind down difference with and without the Dampners now I have the correct ones.
Cheers
Sean.
You showed some very good encouraging results earlier. I'd be eager to see your new graphs. Good luck.
@Yadaraf,
I have no words. Could it be that we'll see the Lego motor in full shine before we get any clue about this project? Keep up the great work but don't get addicted.
@ Omnibus
> Let's start from the beginning. The H-B loop you refer to isn't the usually
> observed H-B loop which relates an external H field producing the B field in
> the permanent magnets, correct? The permanent magnets we use are already made,
> energy has been spent to produce them and so on. The H-B field which you have
> in mind is something different--you arbitrarily (I understand it's stronger
> but still that's an arbitrary choice) choose the field of the stators to be
> the H field, an H field other than the H field that produced the permanent
> magnetism in the rotor magnet, and this H field causes some B field in the
> rotors other than the B field which is already there to begin with because
> these are permanent magnets from the get go, correct? Let's establish this
> difference first and then go from there.
One can push a magnet around a BH loop either by varying the strength of a stationary electromagnet or by varying the position of a stronger permanent magnet.
In the case of the Alsetalokin Motor I am taking the stator magnets to be the H field and the rotor magnets to be the B field. I'm assuming that the stator magnets are operating in their reversible (straight line) region and the B magnets are operating in an irreversible region, such as the knee in the second quadrant.
Any magnet is only "permanent" until it is subjected to a stronger field as the BH loop shows.
The H stator magnets are not subject to a stronger field than themselves since the B rotor magnets are weaker and so the H magnets are "permanent". The B magnets, the rotor magnets, are subjected to a stronger field than themselves so the B magnets are impermanent, "permanent" magnets.
Quote from: Grimer on February 10, 2008, 07:59:51 AM
One can push a magnet around a BH loop either by varying the strength of a stationary electromagnet or by varying the position of a stronger permanent magnet.
In the case of the Alsetalokin Motor I am taking the stator magnets to be the H field and the rotor magnets to be the B field. I'm assuming that the stator magnets are operating in their reversible (straight line) region and the B magnets are operating in an irreversible region, such as the knee in the second quadrant.
Thats interesting, I was thinking more that the Rotor would be the H that interacted on the Stators the B curve as such.
Especially when the rotor has got to a speed where the rotor hardly effects the stator magnets.
Obviously the Stator magnets are also effecting the Rotor but I thought that the primary effect would be rotor to stator.
Think I will stick to building hehe ;D
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 10, 2008, 05:23:31 AM
@CLaNZeR,
Did you try Liquid Wrench Penetrating and Lubricating Oil? It was like night and day--bearings that had no intention of AGW started latching like hell. When I applied it to the rotor at one point it was too good--hindered somewhat the AGW locking. After a while it got back to itself and now latching-wise all is good. To no avail, though. Where is this darn acceleration?
When it "latches" does the rotor decelerate at exactly the same rate as unlatched or does it decelerate at some other value?
Quote from: CLaNZeR on February 10, 2008, 08:24:48 AM
Quote from: Grimer on February 10, 2008, 07:59:51 AM
One can push a magnet around a BH loop either by varying the strength of a stationary electromagnet or by varying the position of a stronger permanent magnet.
In the case of the Alsetalokin Motor I am taking the stator magnets to be the H field and the rotor magnets to be the B field. I'm assuming that the stator magnets are operating in their reversible (straight line) region and the B magnets are operating in an irreversible region, such as the knee in the second quadrant.
That's interesting, I was thinking more that the Rotor would be the H that interacted on the Stators the B curve as such.
Especially when the rotor has got to a speed where the rotor hardly effects the stator magnets.
Obviously the Stator magnets are also effecting the Rotor but I thought that the primary effect would be rotor to stator.
Think I will stick to building hehe ;D
Cheers
Sean.
The H has to be the stronger. The H is analogous to Stress and the B to Strain. That is why I follow the Cornell convention and always plot H as the ordinate (y axis) and B as the abscissa (x axis).
Quote from: Grimer on February 10, 2008, 08:25:53 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 10, 2008, 05:23:31 AM
@CLaNZeR,
Did you try Liquid Wrench Penetrating and Lubricating Oil? It was like night and day--bearings that had no intention of AGW started latching like hell. When I applied it to the rotor at one point it was too good--hindered somewhat the AGW locking. After a while it got back to itself and now latching-wise all is good. To no avail, though. Where is this darn acceleration?
When it "latches" does the rotor decelerate at exactly the same rate as unlatched or does it decelerate at some other value?
Now that's the pivotal question. I don't have the apparatus to study this but I think @CLaNZeR was showing interesting graphs in that respect. He has a tachometer with memory and can plot the rpm as a function of time. That's why I'm waiting with great interest to see his new data especially in connection with this question.
@Grimer,
Both the stronger and the weaker magnets are at their remanences when left on their own (energy equal to the area enclosed by the respective genuine H-B loop has already been spent to create them as permanent magnets), in absence of external field. That's why they are permanent magnets to begin with.. If they are of low coercivity even weak counter fields can upset them both and get their flux even down to zero.So, it's not obvious that the stronger magnet must always be treated as H when the two magnets are interacting, while the weaker as B. Note, this H we're using to describe this interaction isn't the H that created the permanent magnets. There may be mutual influence and one may arbitrarily choose one to be H and the other to be B and vice versa. Here in this case the magnets are of the same material but their remanences are obviously different but maybe their coercivities are practically the same at that they are not low. Thus, although your theory (requiring the stronger magnet to be always treated as H) doesn't seem to be applicable in general you have to show it applies in this concrete case. This has to be understood first before we proceed.
. Ignore, just realised a mix up in data, will re-post further down.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on February 10, 2008, 10:10:47 AM
Okay quick Wind Down from 500RPM with 3 Stator magnets and no AGW lock attempted.
Original Dampners were standard Aluminium Bar I had hanging around before the 6061-T6 bar arrived.
Spreadsheet can be downloaded here: http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/500RPM-Dampners.xls
That's interesting. If you repeat it do you get the same result?
In other words we need to get some idea of the variance within and between groups.
Okay with AGW kicking in approx 320RPM as can been seen by the bump.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2F320agw.jpg&hash=6605d8f85df4c5446f9ccf625adbc104e47ed89a)
Spreadsheet http://www.overunity.org.uk/AGWdampners.xls
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: Grimer on February 10, 2008, 10:26:32 AM
That's interesting. If you repeat it do you get the same result?
Will get my fingers sore one more time for you Frank ;D and do the NO AGW for all 3 again.
Interesting the difference of the 6061-T6 on the AGW charts compared to NO AGW.
@ Omnibus
> Both the stronger and the weaker magnets are at their remanences when left on their
> own (energy equal to the area enclosed by the respective genuine H-B loop has already
> been spent to create them as permanent magnets), in absence of external field.
> That's why they are permanent magnets to begin with.. If they are of low coercivity
> even weak counter fields can upset them both and get their flux even down to zero.
Absolutely. :)
> So, it's not obvious that the stronger magnet must always be treated as H when
> the two magnets are interacting, while the weaker as B.
Not at all obvious. But if we assume that it is so, then we can begin to get some idea where the extra energy might be coming from. It means we have a hypothesis with certain implications. For example, that one set of magnets should be strong and the other weak, etc.
> Note, this H we're using to describe this interaction isn't the H that created the permanent magnets.
Quite so.
> There may be mutual influence and one may arbitrarily choose one to be H and the other
> to be B and vice versa. Here in this case the magnets are of the same material but their
> remanences are obviously different but maybe their coercivities are practically the same
> at that they are not low. Thus, although your theory (requiring the stronger magnet to be
> always treated as H) doesn't seem to be applicable in general.
Which is perhaps why people are finding it difficult to get the same result as Alsetalokin, eh! ::)
> ... you have to show it applies in this concrete case.
Do I indeed, Professor. Well since I have no idea of the properties of Al's magnets we obviously can't proceed any further at this point and have to leave the idea as Grimer's Hypothesis.
But if anyone has any better hypothesis as to where the energy might come from I would love to hear it. ;)
Quote from: CLaNZeR on February 10, 2008, 10:37:44 AM
Quote from: Grimer on February 10, 2008, 10:26:32 AM
That's interesting. If you repeat it do you get the same result?
Will get my fingers sore one more time for you Frank ;D and do the NO AGW for all 3 again.
Interesting the difference of the 6061-T6 on the AGW charts compared to NO AGW.
Yep. Considering there's not that much difference between them in chemical composition.
6061 T6
Chemical Composition %
Al Cr Cu Fe Mg Si Zn
Max Max Max
Remainder 0.04-0.35 0.15-0.40 0.7 0.8-1.2 0.40-0.8 0.25
... which is why I was interested in seeing a replication. :)
Been following this thread since the beginning, I was wondering if anyone followed up on the florescent light interaction? I ask this since the ballast is nothing more than a Tesla coil of sorts and since it was not functioning properly (bulb being bad) it could have been radiating a pulsed magnetic field which influences the motors magnetic field. I am sure the position of the fixture would need to be considered in this but do you think this might have an impact on the results?
I would think this filed would modulate the motors field thus creating the required energy to make it spin. If you think I am off base please explain to me why, I am willing to learn.
@Grimer,
See, we know that @alsetalokin's stator magnets are N42 neos while his rotor magnets are N38. Probably there are H-B diagrams for these concrete magnets and if we find them we can ponder a little bit whether or not your hypothesis (pronouncing that the stronger magnet must inevitably be H) is valid or not. That'll be interesting.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on February 10, 2008, 10:33:59 AM
Okay with AGW kicking in approx 320RPM as can been seen by the bump.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2F320agw.jpg&hash=6605d8f85df4c5446f9ccf625adbc104e47ed89a)
Spreadsheet http://www.overunity.org.uk/AGWdampners.xls
Cheers
Sean.
Two questions.
At what rpm did the AGW revert to GW, if at all?
What would the graph look like if you stopped the GW stators at a rotor speed of 300 rpm say?
Okay two tests one after the other 3 Stators, No AGW from 430RPM.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.org.uk%2Focpm%2Fnew320.jpg&hash=61e36fb4bdf8c16be9889b1c3b39de65860fbdd7)
Spreadsheets:
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/FinalNEW1-NOAGW.xls
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/FinalNEW2-NOAGW.xls
Cheers
Sean.
Quote from: Grimer on February 10, 2008, 11:36:35 AM
Two questions.
At what rpm did the AGW revert to GW, if at all?
What would the graph look like if you stopped the GW stators at a rotor speed of 300 rpm say?
AGW always drops out between 150-120 RPM and starts going GW again.
Bit difficult to stop the Stator magnets below 400RPM as they are still interacting. You could stop them by holding them, but what Pole do you want it stop on, North Facing in or South Facing in.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on February 10, 2008, 05:00:48 AM
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 10, 2008, 01:20:16 AM
RE: Lego Version of the WhipMag -- No Kidding
I spent two hours today developing an educational version of the WhipMag using nothing but Lego bricks and Lego magnets. It spins and makes "magnet noise" just like the other WhipMags I've listened to. And yes, it is addictive to play with.
FANTASTIC ;D ;D ;D ;D
CLaNZeR, Many thanks. Glad you enjoyed. :D Not as professional as your rig, but addictive nonetheless. I'm now trying three oscillating stators -- like in Andrea's rig. I wonder what the Lego kids will come up. An educator suggested that I post to LugNut.com, so I'm doing that now.
As for your spectral analysis, I was able to look at your WMV last night and your rig looks a lot like Omni's. However, I believe I saw a few tones that were lower. I'll post some graphs today.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I have a question. Has anyone been able to reproduce his results? There are several similar devices on youtube but I haven't seen any of them work.
Quote from: Libra8 on February 10, 2008, 02:13:38 PM
I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I have a question. Has anyone been able to reproduce his results? There are several similar devices on youtube but I haven't seen any of them work.
Not yet. We're working on this as we speak.
I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I have a question. Has anyone been able to reproduce his results? There are several similar devices on youtube but I haven't seen any of them work.
Quote from: CLaNZeR on February 10, 2008, 12:06:56 PM
Okay two tests one after the other 3 Stators, No AGW from 430RPM.
Thanks very much for the data. Interesting.
Quite a variation between tests. And there is some suggestion of a bump at about 350. Should there be? ???
Is that the AGW stator trying to kick in by not managing it?
On the evidence so far I doubt if stopping the GW rotors will show much.
It would appear that the dampers make very little difference. :-\
Quote from: Libra8 on February 10, 2008, 02:23:20 PM
I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I have a question. Has anyone been able to reproduce his results? There are several similar devices on youtube but I haven't seen any of them work.
Sorry to say no one has re-produced the working effect yet.
But on the bright side, if it does not work, Hey atleast we tried :)
Then onto the next project ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Grimer on February 10, 2008, 02:30:31 PM
Quite a variation between tests. And there is a suggestion of a bump at about 350. Should there be? ???
On the evidence so far I doubt if stopping the GW rotors will show much.
It would appear that the dampers make very little difference. :-\
The 350 downward bump on the AGW run downs I would say is me trying to get the latch.
I would say the charts show that in AGW the Dampners make for a longer Wind Down.
When no AGW is attempted them the Dampners actually cause the Rotor to wind down quicker.
Ummm just realised I have not checked the FTP site for a week that I setup for AL.
This was his reply a couple of weeks ago when I requested another Video. So we still might get something.
********************************************
Alsetalokin I am going to ask this and I feel that I have not hassled you at all over the last couple of weeks with requests or any of that other bullshit that has been floating around aimed at you.
After working 24/7 for the last 2 weeks in trying to get close to your Rig I want to request another video showing the spin up, the AGW latch and the acceleration that was shown in the first video, but that is as clear as the one you sent yesterday showing the Strobe effect.
I know you are pissed off with people trying to get you to prove this stuff over and over again and I really do not blame you after some of the remarks and damm right rudeness that I have read from certain people, if I was you I would probably also tell the world to PISS OFF.
I have had a little taste of it from the emails off the YouTube videos I have published and YEP it is amasing how many weirdo's are out there with no manners, not too mention respect for peoples Free Will to experiement with this stuff.
I am 90% sure you will not respond to this post, but that is not a problem, but my time playing with this is coming to a end because of real life stuff needing attention and time to jump boat as such. Would be great to get a result and backup the weird effect you have witnessed if nothing else.
I am not patronising your intelligence by the wording of my post above and if it sounds like it then I appologise now, just saying how it is.
Cheers
Sean.
********************************************
AL's reply was:
********************************************
Hey CLaNZeR
No worries, friend. But my time playing with all this is coming to an end soon too. I checked out your website and I think the work you are doing is really cool. I wish I had the CNC stuff--I've been thinking about computerizing the Sherlines but haven't had an excuse yet.
Thanks for putting up the video and the pictures--I had no idea one could put inline pics up here (or I would have been doing it long ago...)
I'll do what I can, keep checking the ftp dir, but I have a lot of catching up to do at work this coming week, so no promises...
--Al
********************************************
Just checked it and nothing new :(
Cheers
Sean.
Sorry for the tardiness of my reply - life has gotten in the way.
QuoteBlue,
Bela Fleck is awesome. One of my favs. Just got into them a couple of years ago.
Q: What's your reference for 5220 RPM?
@02:57 on the WMV video I can read "4733" on the LCD and hear Al say: "OK, so now we're over 4000 -- almost 5000 RPM on that small magnet."
Cheers,
Yada..
@Yada:
With credit to MeggerMan:
Quote174Hz = 174 beats /second = 10440 beats / minute
8 rotor magnets passing the stator would give 1700 rpm x 8 / 60 = 226Hz
174Hz would imply a rotor speed of 1305 rpm and a stator speed of 5220 rpm.
It doesn't really matter whether it's 174 Hz or 178 Hz. The important point is that the tone is tied to the motion of the rotor/stator. It's not a property of the materials or construction - like a resonant frequency of the rig. It's a periodic noise that when made often enough is interpretted to be a tone by the human ear. If you don't spin the rotor/stator the same speed as Al's was in the video - that tone won't show up.
For kicks, I've normalized Omni's audio file to fit the dynamic range and accelerated it by 4 times (2 octaves), which might cause something being interpretted by our ears as a noise to become fast enough to be interpretted as a tone. I'm going to attach it to this post. Would you please run your analysis on it to see whether some dominant spikes show up? I would not expect for them to be at 174 regardless, since the simulated rotor rpm in my output is something more like 1,000 - 1,120, rather than 1,320... But, at least then we could stop looking for that one on Omni's rig.
I originally did this Friday night after the concert. I finally got the audio into mp3 and my reply to you and Omni written, but when I attempted to post it I discovered that I had inadvertantly attached the wav rather than the mp3 and wav's are not allowed and the site moved all of my text into null/void. At that point it was after 2 in the morning here and I just couldn't do it again at the time and haven't had time again until now.
PS - Yeah, I've been a Flecktones fan since '91. But, this wasn't the Flecktones. This was Victor and 2 of his brothers and their band (another electric bass, a drummer, and a singer...). I've been playing guitar for 40 years now; I made a living at it for 2 of those; some people think I'm pretty good. But - they're wrong. When I listen to musicians at that level I realize that I've never been/will likely never be more than a rank beginner. Listening to them is both transporting and depressing for me. But: I listen anyway...
Quote@blue_energy,
Sorry to bother you with this boring stuff after such an inspiring evening you had. Yes, I understand that but my only goal was to see if we can connect somehow the rpm with the spectral pattern. We can't, it turned out. As for the 174Hz you're right, the conditions have to be kept the same to "hear" that tone. Unfortunately, I don't have anything here to accomplish that save the fact that things such as a Dremel will introduce additional noise which will interfere (not sure it can be filtered good). Anyway, I don't see comparing the acoustic characteristics of the device being of much use for its successful replication but I may be wrong. Do you think any successful machines would sound the same? Do, say, working internal combustion engines have common major acoustic patterns?
@ Omnibus:
Well - suppose you use the dremel to rev it up to 1,400, turn the dremel off, and say something brief like, "mark" when the rotor hits 1305. If there's an accoustic peak near 174 - we'll know what caused it. It would not surprise me at all if that particular noise were the sound of the magnets passing each other and the intersecting fields pressing the rotor/stator shafts into their respective bearings 8 times per rotor revolution. In that case, we would expect for any properly setup rig to exhibit a varient of the same phenomena.
Do I think that all successful machines will sound the same? Not really, no. I would expect that two identically constructed rigs spinning at the same speed would have a nearly identical accoustic signature. But - we know that Al's and everyone elses are NOT identical. The spindles are different. As hard as everone has worked to figure out the rotor magnet strength, N38 is NOT identical to Al's rotor magnets (which are somewhat less, as I recall). Etc. So - their accoustic signature's would necessarily be differrent as well.
That having been said, surely Al didn't happen to land on the one combination of magnets, materials, and etc. that would work. Surely there is confluence of relationship which accounts for the occurence of the effect. Maybe there are details in the accoustic signature of a working whipmag that result in some portion of the accoustic signature. On a car there
is an accoustic relationship between the valves and the pistons and the distributor (back when they still had those...) of a working engine. If the timing of those is off - the engine doesn't run. When there is a second working whipmag - these tests will be considerably more germane, I think.
My main reason for posting what I did was to show that the spike at 174 Hz is NOT a part of that signature. Rather, that it is directly related to the speed of rotor/stator. Maybe your '250-280' sound track will show a similar spike when sped up to something close to Al's running speed. Recall that the tone on Al's machine whose frequency peaked at 174 (or 178, depending...) was not really audible until it got close to that frequency.
Yadaraf wrote:
QuoteSee my hypothesis on the 5th harmonic. FunkyJive's a musician and might have an observation. What doesn't fit, however, is that the amplitude of the 5th -- if that's what it is -- is higher than the fundamental.
... 5th harmonic: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg76194.html#msg76194
I keep thinking of CLaNZeR's video in which he discusses bearing noise. Great video as usual. The noise -- and tones like in Andrea's rig -- are peculiar to be sure.
... Bearing Noise: http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSBearingnoise.wmv
I agree that the HI/LO tones probably are not related to race noise. Also, recall that Bruce's rig did not have spinning stators, and it still generated interesting tones. I'm scratching my head.
Hello Yadaraf.
I'm sorry that I hadn't seen or replied to your question before (have been away for a little while).
For myself the characteristics of the analysed audio are an interesting observation, though I haven't tried to read too much into the precision of the characteristic peaks and troughs due to the many potential influences that will invariably affect acoustic-related analysis - unless performed in an anechoic chamber with professional reference microphone(s). Even then the rig itself will have multiple characteristic resonances based on the multipart construction. Added anomalies would also result from the frequency-dependent coupling coefficient of rig to mic if mounted on the camera with the camera rested/mounted on the same table as the rig, for example.
Table resonance can be observed in Alsetalokin's original video for the part where he lifts the motor off of the table and then places it back down on the table surface, with the corresponding audible change in tonal response.
The amplitude of harmonics can indeed be greater than the fundamental where influencing resonance favours the harmonic, and this would apply to any frequency in the observed band.
I would concur with Omnibus, where although I don't dispute that the peaks bear a direct relationship with the rotational velocity of the motor, the peaks and troughs in the observed passband would also reflect the characteristic acoustic influences of the motor, the recording environment, and the camcorder/mic. Disproportionality would also be compounded by AGC of the mic input, in addition to potential filtering designed to emphasise the nominal speech passband (300Hz to 3.4kHz) and/or reduce transport rumble in the case of tape-based camcorders.
Incidentally, someone mentioned the proximity of the flourescent light to the jig, and on reflection it is probably electrical burst-firing noise that is inducing the majority of hum and noise to the camcorder mic circuit.
I look forward to the time when someone here has achieved a working jig of their own, where I believe that electrical (non-acoustic) interfaces to the jig for analytical purposes would offer considerably more value than acoustic analysis alone.
All the best,
FunkyJive
@All,
Has anyone considered yet this might be a xaoh ?
Cheers,
Dean
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 11, 2008, 01:50:04 AM
@All,
Has anyone considered yet this might be a xaoh ?
Cheers,
Dean
@Dean
HussShhhhhh !!!! Speak very quietly or the thought might catch on ::) :D :D :D :D :D :D
OK I will bite, what's an xaoh?
Simply a hoax....lol
Quote from: Honk on February 11, 2008, 04:47:36 AM
Simply a hoax....lol
Nah, its one of these (http://shadow-otm.deviantart.com/art/Xaoh-Bloodied-Combat-74723124). ;)
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 11, 2008, 01:50:04 AM
@All,
Has anyone considered yet this might be a xaoh ?
Cheers,
Dean
Well, of course we have. We've just concluded that we don't know for sure and we've decided to try to find out.
But, you obviously
already know without a shadow of a doubt that it
is a hoax - so what does it matter to you? You are not invested. You contribute nothing but your negativity. Why continue to pay attention? What an incredible waste of time for you. If I were you I would just leave here feeling smug and superior and not come back.
But - you don't do that. You continue to lurk. Periodically you surface to let us know how superior you are to us. Why? Ask yourself what's in it for you - and if you find that it's all about the potential opportunity to get a rise out of bringing other people down - then do us a favor and let us come to our own conclusions in our own time. Maybe we're just behind you, and eventually we'll all agree with you. But - maybe not. It doesn't really matter, right? Regardless, it's our time. It's our money. It's our choice. This discussion is for the people who think that maybe there is something here. There are other locations to go to commiserate about how potentially foolish we are. This discussion isn't for that. Thanks.
The why is easy... he is merely a llort. ;)
edit to add : nothing more, nothing less.
I've read every post here start to the last. I keep hoping that someone will succeed with a working replication. There must be many rigs out there that have had great hopes of success. I too would like to experiment with Al's creation. Checked with KJ magnets and they told me they have had such a demand for these magnetics that they actually ran out of stock. They suggested I contact someone that was working on this project and acquire some from them.
It sounds like hopes of a success are waning for a few that have put in a lot of work in on their rigs. With this in mind and knowing that old projects have a way of becoming door stops. I would like to apply some of my ideas to someone's old rig. I would also share six of my Taco Tools; used to form a taco, to desired crispness, using fresh tortillas and a frying pan with only a 1/4 cup of oil.
Anyone interested please pm me or email.
New eyes and new ideas may just get a working replication of Al's work. Thank you.
Duplicate: oops
One thing has become clear, changing the lubricant induces dramatic changes in the behavior of the device. When the rotor and stator bearings are tried as is, that is, at the condition obtained from the manufacturer there's no way to achieve AGW lock. Once penetrating lubricating oil is applied to the stator bearing it locks at AGW rotation without a problem. Surprisingly, applying that same penetrating lubricating oil also to the rotor bearings worsens the performance and it takes a few runs to achieve AGW lock. Obviously @alsetalokin has achieved in that video some lucky interplay of these several mechanical factors such as bearing friction, weight of the rotor etc. as well as the correct proportion of the magnetic fields to achieve what we see there. I really wonder if he's still able to reproduce these conditions. Maybe his silence now fuels such suspicions but he should come openly and say what's going on. There's nothing embarrassing in the fact that sometimes one can't reproduce his own results. That happens all the time when research is done and that's the nature of things when doing research--to find the factors that cause an effect to appear and ultimately to explain it once you find it's real and reproducible. The embarrassing thing is not to admit your inability to reproduce your results and to maintain the false impression that it's otherwise.
Quoteapplying that same penetrating lubricating oil also to the rotor bearings worsens the performance
That IS interesting, and promising... that means you need some rotor friction to make the unit work.
Quote from: JFK on February 11, 2008, 02:56:32 PM
Quoteapplying that same penetrating lubricating oil also to the rotor bearings worsens the performance
That IS interesting, and promising... that means you need some rotor friction to make the unit work.
That's what these dampers do, I think. Interestingly, adding dampers at different places around the rotor also changes the performance. The two extra rotors, save the one in AGW rotation, do too. I think @Harvey had made a remark that adding dampers is equivalent to adding weight to the rotor. So these are the several factors we have to play with and try to find the lucky combination.
Quote from: blue_energy on February 11, 2008, 12:01:22 PM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 11, 2008, 01:50:04 AM
@All,
Has anyone considered yet this might be a xaoh ?
Cheers,
Dean
Well, of course we have. We've just concluded that we don't know for sure and we've decided to try to find out.
But, you obviously already know without a shadow of a doubt that it is a hoax - so what does it matter to you? You are not invested. You contribute nothing but your negativity. Why continue to pay attention? What an incredible waste of time for you. If I were you I would just leave here feeling smug and superior and not come back.
But - you don't do that. You continue to lurk. Periodically you surface to let us know how superior you are to us. Why? Ask yourself what's in it for you - and if you find that it's all about the potential opportunity to get a rise out of bringing other people down - then do us a favor and let us come to our own conclusions in our own time. Maybe we're just behind you, and eventually we'll all agree with you. But - maybe not. It doesn't really matter, right? Regardless, it's our time. It's our money. It's our choice. This discussion is for the people who think that maybe there is something here. There are other locations to go to commiserate about how potentially foolish we are. This discussion isn't for that. Thanks.
Maybe if you applied your superb character and motivation assessment skills to the proponent of this "concept" that you are so invested in you may have read the writing on the wall a little sooner and not be so jazzed at me for pointing to the blindingly obvious.
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 11, 2008, 03:25:14 PM
Quote from: blue_energy on February 11, 2008, 12:01:22 PM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 11, 2008, 01:50:04 AM
@All,
Has anyone considered yet this might be a xaoh ?
Cheers,
Dean
Well, of course we have. We've just concluded that we don't know for sure and we've decided to try to find out.
But, you obviously already know without a shadow of a doubt that it is a hoax - so what does it matter to you? You are not invested. You contribute nothing but your negativity. Why continue to pay attention? What an incredible waste of time for you. If I were you I would just leave here feeling smug and superior and not come back.
But - you don't do that. You continue to lurk. Periodically you surface to let us know how superior you are to us. Why? Ask yourself what's in it for you - and if you find that it's all about the potential opportunity to get a rise out of bringing other people down - then do us a favor and let us come to our own conclusions in our own time. Maybe we're just behind you, and eventually we'll all agree with you. But - maybe not. It doesn't really matter, right? Regardless, it's our time. It's our money. It's our choice. This discussion is for the people who think that maybe there is something here. There are other locations to go to commiserate about how potentially foolish we are. This discussion isn't for that. Thanks.
Maybe if you applied your superb character and motivation assessment skills to the proponent of this "concept" that you are so invested in you may have read the writing on the wall a little sooner and not be so jazzed at me for pointing to the blindingly obvious.
Blue, Dean,Concerning the issue of a "hoax," after I read the early dialog between Al and OC -- see attached 131-page transcript -- I thought Al was being sincere.
Q: What do you think about the early dialog in the transcript?Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
CLaNZeR, Omni, Blue,
RE Spectral analysis
I'm behind on studying the various WMV files that you've provide, and apologize.
After I built the Lego rig, I noticed the vibratory (tonal?) phenomenon as well and have been investigating it by building other Lego models. I'm refining my hypothesis concerning the consequences of positive acoustic, vibratory, or oscillatory feedback, and am headed out for more parts. If I'm successful, I'll produce a second video this evening. In any event I'm having fun.
Concerning Al's device, I've hypothesized that the tone might be produced as the result of magnetic "turbulence" occurring every 3/8 rotation of the octagonal rotor. The rhythmic turbulence causes the bearing elements -- balls, cylinders -- to slosh back and forth like beer at Bela Fleck concert. ;D
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 11, 2008, 03:25:14 PM
Quote from: blue_energy on February 11, 2008, 12:01:22 PM
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 11, 2008, 01:50:04 AM
@All,
Has anyone considered yet this might be a xaoh ?
Cheers,
Dean
Well, of course we have. We've just concluded that we don't know for sure and we've decided to try to find out.
But, you obviously already know without a shadow of a doubt that it is a hoax - so what does it matter to you? You are not invested. You contribute nothing but your negativity. Why continue to pay attention? What an incredible waste of time for you. If I were you I would just leave here feeling smug and superior and not come back.
But - you don't do that. You continue to lurk. Periodically you surface to let us know how superior you are to us. Why? Ask yourself what's in it for you - and if you find that it's all about the potential opportunity to get a rise out of bringing other people down - then do us a favor and let us come to our own conclusions in our own time. Maybe we're just behind you, and eventually we'll all agree with you. But - maybe not. It doesn't really matter, right? Regardless, it's our time. It's our money. It's our choice. This discussion is for the people who think that maybe there is something here. There are other locations to go to commiserate about how potentially foolish we are. This discussion isn't for that. Thanks.
Maybe if you applied your superb character and motivation assessment skills to the proponent of this "concept" that you are so invested in you may have read the writing on the wall a little sooner and not be so jazzed at me for pointing to the blindingly obvious.
What do you have to gain here, Dean? Are you just trying to find an argument with someone? How pointless! What difference does it make to
you whether we're wrong or not? So what? Why do you care? Why should we care that you think so? Go find some grade-schoolers to bully - but, go away!
Hey Dean,
I'm gonna get a caining for this one...I think I may be related to you, as I think my grandmothers maiden name was McGowan, first name Maisy.
Lived in Lossiemouth I think.
Probably need to check the family tree though.
@All,
Anyone notice that Harvey over on Fizzix forum is a lot like Al?...I could be wrong, but I have this funny feeling about it.
Regards
Rob
Quote@All,
Has anyone considered yet this might be a xaoh ?
Cheers,
Dean
I believe that the persistence of experimenters working on this project arises from three factors, namely (1) that Alsetalokin appeared to have a working unit that looked quite plausible; (2) the desire to be amongst the first to succeed at replicating the results shown in the original video; (3) it's fun trying.
On the second point, success would result in nothing less than major kudos and pure euphoria for the achiever, and for most is a lot of fun trying the many possible variations and incarnations whilst facing persistent questions and challenges. In particular, having a lot of fun whilst searching for the proverbial golden chalice has got to be worth more than the relatively small investment constructing test model(s).
By way of example, millions of people spend millions every week on the national lottery in the forlorn hope of hitting the jackpot against near-impossible odds, though as they say... "You've got to be in it to win it" ;) However, Alsetalokin's convincing video demonstration might be taken to suggest that the odds of success are considerably greater than winning the lottery jackpot and therefore understandable that many experimenters will continue trying to succeed.
Only after the greatest time and effort has been expended could the answer become abundantly clear, though with so many outstanding questions and lack of understanding I believe we're still at the starting block.
All the best,
FunkyJive
Quote from: MeggerMan on February 11, 2008, 06:49:09 PM
@All,
Anyone notice that Harvey over on Fizzix forum is a lot like Al?...I could be wrong, but I have this funny feeling about it.
Wow, I just went back and read some of Harvey's posts on fizzx. It does sound a lot like Al. I think you nailed this one.
I noticed two things in Al's first video.
At 00:31 when he turn the stator bvetween the dampers, the roter didn't move much. Seems to me the 3 stators megnets are different, the one in between the dampers is weeker then the other two.
At 02:35 when he stops the two stators, they were all facing same direction. But when he realesed his hand, the two black poles turned facing the center of the rotor. Why?
I found his video 3 days ago, read a lot and very excited!
I believe Al discovered something new and we will find out more soon.
Thanks everyone in this game, let's enjoy it to the max!
Was major in physics. Droped out due to low grades, not able to pass calcules or English.
But this motor got my mind. Really like to donate few sents left in my pocket into the pot. Just thoughts, no theory or math. Don't laugh at me please.
First of all, I believe open minds are believing everything is possible. Time is not ready, science is young... We have all the possiblities on our side.
In Al's motor (I believe it did came from a dream) design, I see the only known force is megnetic force. The stator megnet works like a piston (in a gasoline motor), gives the rotor a kick in every turn. The kick includs ac/de celeration to the rotor. The good news is, the piston drinks gas and smokes O2 but the megnet kicks for free.
Al's video showed clearly the acceleration force is greater. Why is the question. My guase, timing, angle, phase, megnet stranth etc are all in play.
Why not? Simple is beauty. Megnet is one of the best gifts God made for us. After we married megnet, we might couquer gravity sooner.
Good luck everyone. It's about time!
Hello All,
I have been unable to achieve AGW even one time with this new rotor, using N38's in the rotor. I hope to contact Mike tomorrow about the identical bearings as Al's. Sorry it is taking a bit.
I did oil yesterday, the rotor bearings. Reading Omni's post, that was a bad idea. I have even tried to use a dremel to achieve AGW and it will not lock. Any ideas?
@ Sean, Omni and Bill and Andrea
Are all of you using screws that are attracted to a magnet, inside of your stators, as Al was??
@ Rob
Tell me it isn't so!! LOL ;) :D ;D
Cheers all,
Bruce
Some people posted on youtube or forum about the motor. Saying even Al's motor is real thing, it has no future becuase when adding a load, it will slow down and die.
I don't agree at all. Here's why.
After Al finger started his motor, it speed up. The rotor gets like 1700 rpm. The energy gain is what we need. At worst, we can build a rotor weights a lot, use small energy to start it up, and let it die on the pick speed. Use that wind down energy to charge battery. When it stops, re start it again.
Am I have a point?
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 11, 2008, 10:17:24 PM
Hello All,
I have been unable to achieve AGW even one time with this new rotor, using N38's in the rotor. I hope to contact Mike tomorrow about the identical bearings as Al's. Sorry it is taking a bit.
I did oil yesterday, the rotor bearings. Reading Omni's post, that was a bad idea. I have even tried to use a dremel to achieve AGW and it will not lock. Any ideas?
@ Sean, Omni and Bill and Andrea
Are all of you using screws that are attracted to a magnet, inside of your stators, as Al was??
@ Rob
Tell me it isn't so!! LOL ;) :D ;D
Cheers all,
Bruce
Hi Bruce
Well I have been there to and it is frustrating. What i did to reduce the magnetic effect between the bearing and the Stator mag was to temporarily install a small Steel washer between the two. The washer will attach its self bas expected, but will reduce or change the magnetic field effecting the the freeness of rotation. The main thing is that the washer dies not touch the cap screw. U will know it due to the noise. Give this a shot and see how it effects AGW.
I also machined up a brass bushing assembly to replace the bearing in the stator. The setup turns very freely when clear of the rotor and at very low rotor turns(rpm's), but as the rotation Ve's increase the stator locks up. Ended up removing the assembly and went back to bearings. Just had to try it to see.
The SHCS that I used are 316 SS alloy so the magnetic response is very, very low.
Hope this helps
Best Regards
Bill
@Bruce_TPU,
QuoteI did oil yesterday, the rotor bearings. Reading Omni's post, that was a bad idea. I have even tried to use a dremel to achieve AGW and it will not lock. Any ideas?
Did you use specifically ?Liquid Wrench Lubricating and Penetrating Oil? and not any other lubricant? Like I said, this particular one applied to the stator (not so much to the rotor) made the big difference in my rig. It was like night and day regarding the AGW lock.
@Bruce_TPU,
Forgot to answer this (sorry about that):
QuoteAre all of you using screws that are attracted to a magnet, inside of your stators, as Al was??
No, my stator shafts (screws) are non-magnetic, they are not attracted to a magnet.
@ Omni
I used precision lubricator from Radio Shack.
@ Bill
Thank you for the tip, I will try it.
Big Question:
Were Al's screws for his stators magnetic or non magnetic? ???
If you do not think it matters, then think about each stator screw acting as a damper both to the stator and rotor, throwing the whole thing off.
I would suggest switching to magnetic screws to test, and attempting to achieve AGW lock and see if there is a difference! ;)
Cheers,
Bruce
@anyone with AGW lock trouble
i just have my stator magnets on a shaft that is slight smaller diameter than the inner hole of the magnets.
but anyway i picked up some dry graphite for rc cars and getting AGW lock is very easy to achieve.
i am almost certain i could get AGW lock with a feather ;D
hope this info helped...
@Bruce_TPU,
I got the precision lubricator from RadioShack and tried it just for the heck of it. With it I could never get the stator to lock in AGW. It took me a while, when I reverted back to the Liquid Wrench Lubricating and Penetrating Oil, to obtain a AGW lock.Now I'm good again. Try it. You can get it from the local hardware store or from the local WalMart three times cheaper.
Quote from: MeggerMan on February 11, 2008, 06:49:09 PM
Hey Dean,
I'm gonna get a caining for this one...I think I may be related to you, as I think my grandmothers maiden name was McGowan, first name Maisy.
Lived in Lossiemouth I think.
Probably need to check the family tree though.
@All,
Anyone notice that Harvey over on Fizzix forum is a lot like Al?...I could be wrong, but I have this funny feeling about it.
Regards
Rob
Quote from: MeggerMan on February 11, 2008, 06:49:09 PM
Hey Dean,
I'm gonna get a caining for this one...I think I may be related to you, as I think my grandmothers maiden name was McGowan, first name Maisy.
Lived in Lossiemouth I think.
Probably need to check the family tree though.
@All,
Anyone notice that Harvey over on Fizzix forum is a lot like Al?...I could be wrong, but I have this funny feeling about it.
Regards
Rob
Careful there champ you may have the naughty McGowan gene .. gets me in a lot of trouble 8)
I sometimes wonder if the McGowan tree is Sativa genus .. hmmm lets not go there
Cheers,
Dean
Quote from: Omnibus on February 12, 2008, 11:51:56 AM
@Bruce_TPU,
I got the precision lubricator from RadioShack and tried it just for the heck of it. With it I could never get the stator to lock in AGW. It took me a while, when I reverted back to the Liquid Wrench Lubricating and Penetrating Oil, to obtain a AGW lock.Now I'm good again. Try it. You can get it from the local hardware store or from the local WalMart three times cheaper.
Okay Omni,
Thanks. I will pick some up today and try it. Fingers are numb. LOL
Try putting screws attracted to magnets in your stators, Omni. See if there is a difference.
This is the only thing that I can see that Al is doing different from the rest of us.
Cheers,
Bruce
well I don't want to seem obvious or anything, but in al's second video the rotor is placed onto a very wierd looking bearing. There are no photos of this anywhere. He has only shown it in this video at about 32 seconds in. I mean what the hell kind of bearing is that? There is a piece to a vcr that I have that kind of looks like that. But I don't know for sure. If anyone knows, it could definitly help with replication. I would post screen shots, but I don't know how to. Ctrl+print screen doesn't work. I don't think this has been brought up before. If so, my bad. :)
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/Alsetalokinsecondvideo.wmv
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg176.imageshack.us%2Fimg176%2F778%2Frotorbearingxt7.jpg&hash=27856d9875d511b352d44a22c048d42cdc6403a5)
Of course you do realize this is not the working prototype. ;)
Quote from: buggyirk on February 12, 2008, 06:56:57 PM
well I don't want to seem obvious or anything, but in al's second video the rotor is placed onto a very wierd looking bearing. There are no photos of this anywhere. He has only shown it in this video at about 32 seconds in. I mean what the hell kind of bearing is that? There is a piece to a vcr that I have that kind of looks like that. But I don't know for sure. If anyone knows, it could definitly help with replication. I would post screen shots, but I don't know how to. Ctrl+print screen doesn't work. I don't think this has been brought up before. If so, my bad. :)
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/Alsetalokinsecondvideo.wmv
It's purportedly from an old reel-to-reel tape deck.
Hi guys,
Great work to everyone who has attempted to replicate this device! and best of luck to those who continue their research.
I feel the need to post on this subject as this motor is one of the more interesting that i have seen in a long time. forgive me, i only had the stamina to read through the first 150 posts or so.. so if im repeating anything, i appologize. This is quite a lot to say, but here goes::
I am going to discuss the operation of this device rather than its specifications. You guys seem to be caught up with the technical side of this project, which is great dont get me wrong here, but i think we're putting too much emphasis on dimensions, and what types of magnets to use, ect.
There are a few key things that are necesary, but size and shape of the magnets and rotors/stator is a petty formality.
1) the rotating stator magnet must be magnetized diametrically[edited], this means not though the center but from side to side of the circle/cylinder magnet, so that one half of the rounded surface is N, the other half is S.
[why magnet singular? ref. the first part of post # 77, on pg 6, posted by Robbie47 everyone seemed to have missed that]
2) the rotor magnets must be magnetized horizontally, length is not important, except that it should be equal to or greater than the diameter of the stator magnet.
the orientation of the rotor magnets is what determines the operating speed, ignore the difference in size on the black marks, those are just paint to mark the N/S. (black is S). they are are not the same direction, which is one of your "adjustable" factors. I am quite certain a desired RPM could be achieved., but im not going to get into that here. To make the device work, theres really only one thing that you have to do:
1 ) When rotating the device in gear-mode [ meaning when you turn rotor with your finger the stator rotates in a magnetic coupling] the stator must rotate proportionately to the rotor by a factor of the number of "drive" magnets in the system. "whats a drive magnet?" - well, simply put, a drive magnet is a magnet which when it passes the stator - is operating with the stator to push both along in the direction of rotation. The two gear off of each other like a spring, as the like poles approach, the flux is compressed, and instead of pushing against the rotation, its pushing outward on the circular surface causing more rotation.
The "reversed" magnets perform an RPM limiting function ( the MKJD's actually perform another function, relative to RPM, and can be made of any conductive (non-magnetic) rods). The reversed magnets play an important role - positioning of the stator magnet so that the drive magnet pushes off of it as they pass one another. This causes the device to accellerate to, and is one of the factors that affects it's oparating-RPM.
I am not sure why the alleged creators of this device attempted to mislead everyone with their theories on locking the magnetic forces and the magneto kenetic b.s. dampener... its garbage - the rods are necessary, and can be made of copper, aluminum, titanium, gold, silver, platinum, or a few non-magnetic alloys.
their thickness is less important as their position, but you can fine tune them after you get the device operating. They should be as tall as the rotor magnets that pass it, but can be taller.
[ For the physics buffs, if you would like to know the real purpose of these rods PM me]
The device can be adjusted to allow it to operate with "almost" any size/dimensions you may have constructed your device out of, or plan to.
1) the size of the physical rotor is irrelevant. the "rotor diameter" you are concerned with is the octagon (or whatever # of magnets you use) which can be changed by bringing the magnets closer to or further away from the center of rotation. This is one of the ways you can adjust it to obtain the proper proportion of rotation between the 2 rotating wheels.
2) another other is the configuration of the reversed rotor magnets (which effects RPM as well)
3) The distance between the rotor and stator can be adjusted to change the Torque.
Adjusting the device:
Thankfullly you can adjust it in gear-mode. because adjusting a non-operating device, or forcing the device to operated unsynchronized is an impossibility either way you look at it.
Choose your direction: - the direction you want the device to rotate. (an equal # of "drive" magnets and "reversed" magnets, i believe will allow it to operate in either direction but this is pure conjecture at this point).
1) give the rotor a spin, not too slow, but not so fast that you cant see what its doing. If you used the original design for your replication, then they are using 4 drive magnets and 4 reversed magnets [* if your design is different then make note of the proportionality of rotation mentioned above]. which means there is a rotational speed of 1 to 4. The RPM measuring tool in the video seems to have been slightly innacurate, perhaps was user error or interference from the lighting.
Now, adjust the device so that the stator magnet turns 4 times per rotation of the rotor. Once you get it spinning at (or close to) 1:4, starting the device is just a matter of synchronizing the two wheels at the "push" moment of one of the drive magnets.
The original video show the device operating under a (very small) load- the two unnecessary rotors operating conversely. These could have been part of another design as its creators claim, but i suspect its more hooplah to throw people off. you only need the rotor and the interacting stator. I suppose you could add multiple stators as the device in the video had, but i have no idea how one would go about synchronizing the other two while the device is operating, so my only guess at that would be somehow start all 3 at once? pull cord perhaps... anyhow that's the synapsis.
Keep up the good work guys, dont give up. Think about what ive said here and try not to indulge too much into the multiple acts of distortion this wonderful device has been subjected to.
By the way if there's anything i forgot to touch on, or something you may need a deeper understanding of, just let me know.
PS:
As i was about to submit this post my roommate urges me to give further explanation of the MKJDBS......
Magneto Kenetic Jensen Damper B.S. ::: [AKA: Induction Rod - for flux deflation]
when the magnets move at a slow speed the field domains are discrete. Identicle to the original field, just moving. As the speed increases the field expands proportionately, # of lines of flux stays the same, but Teslas decrease as a function of # of lines of flux in a given space, which results in a break-down of the devices function at high RPM's. The induction rods collapse the flux back to its original position around the magnet as it approaches the stator. These rods allow the device to continue steady operation without going out of synch as the device approaches (or exceeds) the terminal velocity of the flux range. They are not necessary on a low RPM device, and the terminal velocity has too many factors for me to determine what that is, aside from discovering it for particular device your have built. i hope in the future we will be able to further fine-tune the device by making our induction rods a specific size for our design.
..so you can build this and it will work ?..
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 13, 2008, 02:04:37 AM
Hi guys,
Great work to everyone who has attempted to replicate this device! and best of luck to those who continue their research.
I feel the need to post on this subject as this motor is one of the more interesting that i have seen in a long time. forgive me, i only had the stamina to read through the first 150 posts or so.. so if im repeating anything, i appologize. This is quite a lot to say, but here goes::
I am going to discuss the operation of this device rather than its specifications. You guys seem to be caught up with the technical side of this project, which is great dont get me wrong here, but i think we're putting too much emphasis on dimensions, and what types of magnets to use, ect.
There are a few key things that are necesary, but size and shape of the magnets and rotors/stator is a petty formality.
1) the rotating stator magnet must be magnetized concentrically, this means not though the center but from side to side of the circle/cylinder magnet, so that one half of the rounded surface is N, the other half is S.
[why magnet singular? ref. the first part of post # 77, on pg 6, posted by Robbie47 everyone seemed to have missed that]
2) the rotor magnets must be magnetized horizontally, length is not important, except that it should be equal to or greater than the diameter of the stator magnet.
the orientation of the rotor magnets is what determines the operating speed, ignore the difference in size on the black marks, those are just paint to mark the N/S. (black is S). they are are not the same direction, which is one of your "adjustable" factors. I am quite certain a desired RPM could be achieved., but im not going to get into that here. To make the device work, theres really only one thing that you have to do:
1 ) When rotating the device in gear-mode [ meaning when you turn rotor with your finger the stator rotates in a magnetic coupling] the stator must rotate proportionately to the rotor by a factor of the number of "drive" magnets in the system. "whats a drive magnet?" - well, simply put, a drive magnet is a magnet which when it passes the stator - is operating with the stator to push both along in the direction of rotation. The two gear off of each other like a spring, as the like poles approach, the flux is compressed, and instead of pushing against the rotation, its pushing outward on the circular surface causing more rotation.
The "reversed" magnets perform an RPM limiting function ( the MKJD's actually perform another function, relative to RPM, and can be made of any conductive (non-magnetic) rods). The reversed magnets play an important role - positioning of the stator magnet so that the drive magnet pushes off of it as they pass one another. This causes the device to accellerate to, and is one of the factors that affects it's oparating-RPM.
I am not sure why the alleged creators of this device attempted to mislead everyone with their theories on locking the magnetic forces and the magneto kenetic b.s. dampener... its garbage - the rods are necessary, and can be made of copper, aluminum, titanium, gold, silver, platinum, or a few non-magnetic alloys.
their thickness is less important as their position, but you can fine tune them after you get the device operating. They should be as tall as the rotor magnets that pass it, but can be taller.
[ For the physics buffs, if you would like to know the real purpose of these rods PM me]
The device can be adjusted to allow it to operate with "almost" any size/dimensions you may have constructed your device out of, or plan to.
1) the size of the physical rotor is irrelevant. the "rotor diameter" you are concerned with is the octagon (or whatever # of magnets you use) which can be changed by bringing the magnets closer to or further away from the center of rotation. This is one of the ways you can adjust it to obtain the proper proportion of rotation between the 2 rotating wheels.
2) another other is the configuration of the reversed rotor magnets (which effects RPM as well)
3) The distance between the rotor and stator can be adjusted to change the Torque.
Adjusting the device:
Thankfullly you can adjust it in gear-mode. because adjusting a non-operating device, or forcing the device to operated unsynchronized is an impossibility either way you look at it.
Choose your direction: - the direction you want the device to rotate. (an equal # of "drive" magnets and "reversed" magnets, i believe will allow it to operate in either direction but this is pure conjecture at this point).
1) give the rotor a spin, not too slow, but not so fast that you cant see what its doing. If you used the original design for your replication, then they are using 4 drive magnets and 4 reversed magnets [* if your design is different then make note of the proportionality of rotation mentioned above]. which means there is a rotational speed of 1 to 4. The RPM measuring tool in the video seems to have been slightly innacurate, perhaps was user error or interference from the lighting.
Now, adjust the device so that the stator magnet turns 4 times per rotation of the rotor. Once you get it spinning at (or close to) 1:4, starting the device is just a matter of synchronizing the two wheels at the "push" moment of one of the drive magnets.
The original video show the device operating under a (very small) load- the two unnecessary rotors operating conversely. These could have been part of another design as its creators claim, but i suspect its more hooplah to throw people off. you only need the rotor and the interacting stator. I suppose you could add multiple stators as the device in the video had, but i have no idea how one would go about synchronizing the other two while the device is operating, so my only guess at that would be somehow start all 3 at once? pull cord perhaps... anyhow that's the synapsis.
Keep up the good work guys, dont give up. Think about what ive said here and try not to indulge too much into the multiple acts of distortion this wonderful device has been subjected to.
By the way if there's anything i forgot to touch on, or something you may need a deeper understanding of, just let me know.
PS:
As i was about to submit this post my roommate urges me to give further explanation of the MKJDBS......
Magneto Kenetic Jensen Damper B.S. ::: [AKA: Induction Rod - for flux deflation]
when the magnets move at a slow speed the field domains are discrete. Identicle to the original field, just moving. As the speed increases the field expands proportionately, # of lines of flux stays the same, but Teslas decrease as a function of # of lines of flux in a given space, which results in a break-down of the devices function at high RPM's. The induction rods collapse the flux back to its original position around the magnet as it approaches the stator. These rods allow the device to continue steady operation without going out of synch as the device approaches (or exceeds) the terminal velocity of the flux range. They are not necessary on a low RPM device, and the terminal velocity has too many factors for me to determine what that is, aside from discovering it for particular device your have built. i assume in the future we will be able to further fine-tune the device by making our induction rods a specific size for our design and .
I suggest you have your room mate pack you another one smoky and toke that one down .. i will look forward to hearing what gibberish you come up with next .. are you related to Bearden by any chance ?
this look cool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_43fb2Kf3M
i cant understand a word hes saying, but the video says enough. i like the spring idea to "reset" the stator.
Zero gives an awesome demonstration of this, with a bit different design, check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHy_OeS8qVE&feature=related
he has a bit of a critic's take on the subject, but the interaction of the rotor/stator is the same showing that this can be varied to virtually any degree.
So we need concentrically-magnetised stators, not diametrically-magnetised? I did try finding magnets with one pole on the inside and an opposite pole that ran all the way around the outside, but no joy. Can anyone suggest a supplier please?
And if we're using diametrically-magnetised rotor magnets then that's probably where we're all going wrong. So... why could no-one come right out and say this before I headed out and bought a bucket load of diametrically-magnetised bars for the rotor and painted them black one end?
Incidentally, as my rotor is 19 inches across and hard to turn, could this be something to do with the car wheel bearing I used and will this stop the motor from working? (thanks in advance).
FunkyJive
you are correct, it is diametric. i used the wrong word not realizing there are 2 ways to magnetize the ring on the horizontal plane - form the inside outwards, as well as through from side to side, sorry if that caused any confusion, i have edited the posts to state diametric.
it was stated in the original video, but very briefly, But also look at how they are painted the black side indicates a pole and the non painted side indicates the other pole.
Hi brave Over_Unity dot com's builders,
You know what?
A stator that is not "static" at all. This could be one of the keys for a "Perpetual Motion" (COP > 1) magnetic device.
This also let me think about the Reidar Finsrud's "sculpture". Here is (my) transcript of what he said in a Norwegian (translated in English) vid. titled "The Art Of The Impossible".
"There are 4 pendulums all together the largest in the middle is 40 Kg weight. The pendulums never get a rest because they meet a negative magnetic field. The track changes in angle all the time because of the low pendulum. The others pendulums maintain the motion initiated by the previous pendulums and so on. That is the 'Perpetual Motion' where the action of the individual pendulums depends on the others and each time a pendulum wants to stop and rest it doesn't get a chance."
For the nitpickers: if the expression "negative magnetic field" bothers you, please just erase the word "negative". Reidar Findsrud is not a scientist.
Sorry if this is a little bit off topic.
Best
"negative" and "positive" is old terminology, used to describe north and south respectively.
what i take that to mean in this instance, is that a repulsion force from two outward-north facing magnets repels the pendulum to give it the extra "kick" needed to stay in motion.
@sm0ky2
Thanks for the clarification about "negative" and "positive" magnetic field. .
Actually, a scientist nitpicker skeptic (and nevertheless :)) friend of mine made this remark "a negative magnetic field cannot exist" when he was shown this Reidar Finsrud vid.
BTW : he did not comment the device by itself...
Best
hello everyone
i was wondering if anyone knows what distance the stator magnets is relative to the rotor mags?
also i don't have a scale but are the stators supposed to be weighted down a little?
Hi Omni,
The liquid wrench worked well. It has allowed me to achieve AGW, but no joy. It does give a longer wind down time. It feels like something is not quit right. I think perhaps the stator holder may be slipping on the bearing, and have thought to glue them in, but I hate that idea. It could make a difference with slippage. Also, there is something about the Stator magnets. Either seem too weak or rotor magnets too strong, I don't know, just something about when it goes to AGW, I can almost imagine it keeps wanting to go but dies... Thoughts, Ideas?
Please put together a short list of important questions we need answered from Al and send to Sean to see if he can get them to Al, so that we do not get stuck.
@ All
I am still working on the bearing issue. It has turned into a goose chase. They gave a Dallas number to the bearing guy, but never an answer of the phone or machine. The bearing guy is trying to track down a company name and address. It is being worked on. I am supposed to call him tomorrow.
Cheers,
Bruce
hi bruce,
if its possible to adjust the distance between the stator and rotor that seems to be the best way to fix that problem. set them at the appropriate distance, so that they stay snychronized. If this is not possible with your design, the next thing to consider is swapping out the magnets.
the stator magnet makes sense because theres only one quick change, vs tearing your rotor apart...
the down side of this is that you may only have one diametrically-magnetized ring, or as is the case with some people, they ordered an extra two or three, but they are all the same size. So your next bet would be to either swap to the size of the rotor mags, or - bring them closer in to the center of the rotor.
@Bruce_TPU,
Can't agree more: "just something about when it goes to AGW, I can almost imagine it keeps wanting to go but dies." Same here. Sometimes more pronounced, sometimes less. And, again, I stress the dramatic effect of the lubricant on the device as it is now. I can only imagine what effect will have changing the distances between rotor and stators, rotor weight etc. Unfortunately, most of our rigs do not allow at all to change these parameters and this is one of the greatest weaknesses here in this particular experiment and in the research in this entire area. Had we had this freedom of changing parameters (and they aren't as many as in some other engineering problems) we could try to apply methods such the ones described here: http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0471255114,descCd-tableOfContents.html
The way we're doing the experiments, far from the modern scientific requirements, we can only hope to hit on the effect by sheer chance, as seems to have been the case with @alsetalokin, an effect which he can't probably reproduce now. Well, that's the reality for such out-of-the-ordinary experiments where needed money should either be spent out of pocket, as we do, or provided by parties who hate to hear about science and only listen to promises for return on investment, something we can't do by any means (and some of us don?t even want to hear about investing in science by having in mind exclusively profit).
@funky
almost any drag or torque that works against the wheels spinning is very bad for this design. your bearings should be as low friction as possible, so that you can spin it with your finger and it goes a long way.
anything less than that is going to work against you in some fashion, so i would try to reduce the
"hard to turn" as much as you can.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 14, 2008, 10:55:46 AM
@funky
almost any drag or torque that works against the wheels spinning is very bad for this design. your bearings should be as low friction as possible, so that you can spin it with your finger and it goes a long way.
anything less than that is going to work against you in some fashion, so i would try to reduce the
"hard to turn" as much as you can.
That's not obvious judging from @alsetalokin's video and the noises heard therein.
Quote from: niente on January 25, 2008, 03:44:13 PM
Quote from: geodan on January 25, 2008, 03:24:20 PM
so the stator is supplying torque?
I would simply say that in this configuration the rotor receives a push from the combined magnetic field of rotor and stator.
In attachment, the FEMM simulation file and the LUA script I used to automate the process. :)
bnet is exactly right here.
the compressed flux as the rotor and stator come together, push both around in the direction of rotation.
I'm designing mine as a Decagon, rather than an octagon, to increase this effect.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 14, 2008, 11:01:54 AM
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 14, 2008, 10:55:46 AM
@funky
almost any drag or torque that works against the wheels spinning is very bad for this design. your bearings should be as low friction as possible, so that you can spin it with your finger and it goes a long way.
anything less than that is going to work against you in some fashion, so i would try to reduce the
"hard to turn" as much as you can.
That's not obvious judging from @alsetalokin's video and the noises heard therein.
Not obvious from the video when he spun the rotor in gear-mode and it continued for a long time?
you just like to argue dont you omni?
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 14, 2008, 12:00:19 PM
Not obvious from the video when he spun the rotor in gear-mode and it continued for a long time?
Well, the video shows it accelerating and running for 25 or 30 seconds. Then the video ends, so for all we know, it slowed down after that and stopped a short time later.
Al claims it ran for 7.5 hours, but why should we believe him without some evidence, like a successful replication? And the guy has disappeared. He is not exactly a believable witness.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 14, 2008, 12:00:19 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 14, 2008, 11:01:54 AM
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 14, 2008, 10:55:46 AM
@funky
almost any drag or torque that works against the wheels spinning is very bad for this design. your bearings should be as low friction as possible, so that you can spin it with your finger and it goes a long way.
anything less than that is going to work against you in some fashion, so i would try to reduce the
"hard to turn" as much as you can.
That's not obvious judging from @alsetalokin's video and the noises heard therein.
Not obvious from the video when he spun the rotor in gear-mode and it continued for a long time?
you just like to argue dont you omni?
Of course, it's not obvious from the video that the friction is low, as you insist. That substantial noise heard isn't from low friction. That's the point I don't agree with you. The friction must be just right not that it has to be low. Now, what's "just right" that remains to be understood.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 14, 2008, 12:07:38 PM
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 14, 2008, 12:00:19 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 14, 2008, 11:01:54 AM
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 14, 2008, 10:55:46 AM
@funky
almost any drag or torque that works against the wheels spinning is very bad for this design. your bearings should be as low friction as possible, so that you can spin it with your finger and it goes a long way.
anything less than that is going to work against you in some fashion, so i would try to reduce the
"hard to turn" as much as you can.
That's not obvious judging from @alsetalokin's video and the noises heard therein.
Not obvious from the video when he spun the rotor in gear-mode and it continued for a long time?
you just like to argue dont you omni?
Of course, it's not obvious from the video that the friction is low, as you insist. That substantial noise heard isn't from low friction. That's the point I don't agree with you. The friction must be just right not that it has to be low. Now, what's "just right" that remains to be understood.
Omni, Funky,Shouldn't we also consider that Al's bearings worked because they were old and slightly worn?
Imagine an old bearing containing several balls whose diameters have eroded over time, creating some space between the balls, When the old bearing is subjected to a rhythmic flux, it's possible that the balls move back and forth in the race -- in a cluster. The floating cluster could be considered as another magnet that moves back and forth [concentrically] within the stator.
Omni, your lubricant might help form the floating cluster.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
.
@ Anyone,
Is it possible that the rotating [floating] bearing elements within the stator are producing a Searl (SEG) effect?
Is it possible cylindrical bearing elements would work better than spherical ones (i.e. balls)?
... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8qvSNkiB9M
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.searlsolution.com%2Fgallery%2F3ring_seg_01.jpg&hash=2b66fff92246a0130e458625a2f28fe55a92c64a)
Cheers, :)
Yada ..
.
@all
Jokes should not be carried too far. I liked your work, your prototypes, your enthusiasm, but now it's time to stop all the game and open your eyes.
I must admit: my movie was a hoax, a beautiful hoax. A big electic motor was hidden under the table, it was turned on by using a pedal.
There is no free-energy. It doesn't exist. Don't you believe me? I don't care.
@OC
Sorry, mate!
@believers
The facts: I was threaten by some unknown guys, that found my home. Those MIBs took my working machine. Obviously I decided to give up for my sake. :-(
14-02-08 The End. :-\
Hi Al,
Thank you for that.
So it was all a hoax......well at least I can go back to the TPU now, no hard feelings.
Not sure what to do with all these magnets and bearings, maybe build the orbo, unless that was faked too. :(
Have you posted this anouncement on the Steorn forum too?
Hope you are well and not too overworked as I know you have been very busy at work.
[edit]Please can you post this to the Steorn or the Fizzix forum just to confirm you are the real Al and not someone who is faking your ID[/edit]
Regards
Rob
Quote from: alsetaIokin on February 14, 2008, 03:40:34 PM
@all
Jokes should not be carried too far. I liked your work, your prototypes, your enthusiasm, but now it's time to stop all the game and open your eyes.
I must admit: my movie was a hoax, a beautiful hoax. A big electic motor was hidden under the table, it was turned on by using a pedal.
There is no free-energy. It doesn't exist. Don't you believe me? I don't care.
@OC
Sorry, mate!
@believers
The facts: I was threaten by some unknown guys, that found my home. Those MIBs took my working machine. Obviously I decided to give up for my sake. :-(
14-02-08 The End. :-\
No one knows what is really happening, but this post, to me, is from someone who does not speak English as their primary language.
Al's language has always been perfect.
To make this believable, please go to fizzx and post the same thing under Al's id there.
Quote from: ken_nyus on February 14, 2008, 04:01:49 PM
Quote from: alsetaIokin on February 14, 2008, 03:40:34 PM
@all
Jokes should not be carried too far. I liked your work, your prototypes, your enthusiasm, but now it's time to stop all the game and open your eyes.
I must admit: my movie was a hoax, a beautiful hoax. A big electic motor was hidden under the table, it was turned on by using a pedal.
There is no free-energy. It doesn't exist. Don't you believe me? I don't care.
@OC
Sorry, mate!
@believers
The facts: I was threaten by some unknown guys, that found my home. Those MIBs took my working machine. Obviously I decided to give up for my sake. :-(
14-02-08 The End. :-\
No one knows what is really happening, but this post, to me, is from someone who does not speak English as their primary language.
Al's language has always been perfect.
To make this believable, please go to fizzx and post the same thing under Al's id there.
Agreed. Anyone can come to this forum under any untaken name. This proves nothing. Besides, if Al had been joking, he would have come clean a long time ago.
So I would chalk the above post to someone with poor grammer and probably it is ________ . You can fill in the blank! LOL
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: alsetaIokin on February 14, 2008, 03:40:34 PM
@all
Jokes should not be carried too far. I liked your work, your prototypes, your enthusiasm, but now it's time to stop all the game and open your eyes.
I must admit: my movie was a hoax, a beautiful hoax. A big electic motor was hidden under the table, it was turned on by using a pedal.
There is no free-energy. It doesn't exist. Don't you believe me? I don't care.
@OC
Sorry, mate!
@believers
The facts: I was threaten by some unknown guys, that found my home. Those MIBs took my working machine. Obviously I decided to give up for my sake. :-(
14-02-08 The End. :-\
Al
Thanks for coming forward but a little favor can you post 5 X 4 jig video on U-tube again. Since you have the only copy, really like to see it. And post the link to us all
:D
Let me guess they took your HDD also!
Cheers
Wayne
Quote from: alsetaIokin on February 14, 2008, 03:40:34 PM
@all
Jokes should not be carried too far. I liked your work, your prototypes, your enthusiasm, but now it's time to stop all the game and open your eyes.
I must admit: my movie was a hoax, a beautiful hoax. A big electic motor was hidden under the table, it was turned on by using a pedal.
There is no free-energy. It doesn't exist. Don't you believe me? I don't care.
@OC
Sorry, mate!
@believers
The facts: I was threaten by some unknown guys, that found my home. Those MIBs took my working machine. Obviously I decided to give up for my sake. :-(
14-02-08 The End. :-\
As this is a very important message and he has
indeed pissed off many replicators who worked day and night about this,
I am giving up his anonymity and posting his IP address.
This posting comes from IP adress:
87.13.36.48
inetnum: 87.0.0.0 - 87.15.255.255
netname: TELECOM-ADSL-7
descr: Telecom Italia S.p.A. TIN EASY LITE
country: IT
admin-c: BS104-RIPE
tech-c: BS104-RIPE
status: ASSIGNED PA "status:" definitions
mnt-by: tiws-mnt
mnt-lower: tiws-mnt
mnt-routes: tiws-mnt
source: RIPE # Filtered
person: BBBEASYIP STAFF
address: MDBLAB
address: Via Val Cannuta, 250
address: I-00100 Roma
address: Italy
phone: +39 06 36881
e-mail: ripe-staff@telecomitalia.it
nic-hdl: BS104-RIPE
source: RIPE # Filtered
% Information related to '87.13.0.0/17AS3269'
route: 87.13.0.0/17
descr: INTERBUSINESS
origin: AS3269
mnt-by: TIWS-MNT
mnt-routes: INTERB-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered
====
So maybe he used a proxy server from Italy to post this message,
but if it was not a proxy server, he is definately not from Canada
but from Italy.
I never trusted his videos.
It did not make sense at all how he behaved,
if he really had something...
Pure magnet to magnet motors will just not work
due to my long experience.
You need a lot of iron between the magnets to
buffer the fields and redirect the magnetic flux fields asymmetrically.
Sorry, but why would anyone think that post is from the real Al? Looks like an obvious troll to me!
The real Al has never posted here before, and would post over in the Steorn form not here (which he hasn't).
@Stefan,
Thanks for that, just goes to show that someone does not want us to work on this.
I did a tracert and yes, it does end up in Itay.
Regards
Rob
Quote from: Omnibus on February 14, 2008, 12:07:38 PM
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 14, 2008, 12:00:19 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 14, 2008, 11:01:54 AM
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 14, 2008, 10:55:46 AM
@funky
almost any drag or torque that works against the wheels spinning is very bad for this design. your bearings should be as low friction as possible, so that you can spin it with your finger and it goes a long way.
anything less than that is going to work against you in some fashion, so i would try to reduce the
"hard to turn" as much as you can.
That's not obvious judging from @alsetalokin's video and the noises heard therein.
Not obvious from the video when he spun the rotor in gear-mode and it continued for a long time?
you just like to argue dont you omni?
Of course, it's not obvious from the video that the friction is low, as you insist. That substantial noise heard isn't from low friction. That's the point I don't agree with you. The friction must be just right not that it has to be low. Now, what's "just right" that remains to be understood.
i understand what you are saying about the noise when the motor is "running". but when he just turns it with his finger and lets it freewheel - it trns and turns and turns. This to me signifies that there is very little friction on that rotor bearing, else it would have quickly slowed to a stop. I cannot tell you for sure what that noise you are hearing is, but if i had to guess it is comming from the stator magnets whirling around their posts. - friction here is somewhat irrelevant compared to the inertial forces of the rotor - although "too much" friction can cause problems with the stators turning as well.
I am not saying that you must construct a "frictionless" machine, but the less friction you have on that main rotor bearing, the better off you are when building ANY machine of this type. you can disagree with that if you want to, but im going to stand my ground on this.
Quote From Al
And yes, the Middle stator does flip easily--it's on the best bearing of all 13. But it is jut a coincidence that the rotor wasn't in just the right position to respond well to the stator when I was wiggling it. I can hold any one of the stators, turn it to just the right angle, and from there, if the rotor is also just right, I can get the rotor to move around quite well as shown in the video--with any of the stators.
I found this today so just maybe we need 2 sticky bearings or greater friction and the center one must really be the best to flip easy, makes sense as he tried 13 and only 3 worked!
Wayne
@ Stephan,
I know this might be a pain, but if you could cross-reference "AL"s IP information, perhaps another user on this forum is posting from the same IP, under a different login?
That would help to distinguish if this is the real "AL" or no.
Quote from: alsetaIokin on February 14, 2008, 03:40:34 PM
@all
Jokes should not be carried too far. I liked your work, your prototypes, your enthusiasm, but now it's time to stop all the game and open your eyes.
I must admit: my movie was a hoax, a beautiful hoax. A big electic motor was hidden under the table, it was turned on by using a pedal.
There is no free-energy. It doesn't exist. Don't you believe me? I don't care.
@OC
Sorry, mate!
@believers
The facts: I was threaten by some unknown guys, that found my home. Those MIBs took my working machine. Obviously I decided to give up for my sake. :-(
14-02-08 The End. :-\
Absolute and utter BS, Al would not post in this forum if he was supposedly coming forward to tell the truth, he would have done it under his account at FizzX.com , now why don't you prove me wrong and post this confession using the FizzX account.
Quote from: MeggerMan on February 14, 2008, 05:00:35 PM
@Stefan,
Thanks for that, just goes to show that someone does not want us to work on this.
I did a tracert and yes, it does end up in Itay.
Regards
Rob
I only know of one poster (replicator...) here from Italy...
RE: CLaNZeR Spectral Analysis
CLaNZeR, Omni,
In an earlier post I mentioned that a preliminary audio analysis of CLaNZeR's device provided data similar to Omni's device in that there were peaks around 1 kHz and 350 Hz. Moreover, with no AGW there appears to be a peak around 1 kHz. When AGW kicks in, the 1 kHz peak flattens out and as well a peak around 350 Hz appears. Note that there's a lot of pink noise in these devices, and it's difficult to see the "forest through the trees."
As a minimum, the audios suggest that the devices appear to have similar acoustic poperties.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
I saw this coming. With all the random people that show up on this forum after SOMETHING NEW has been discovered, it's safe to say that this guy is BSing us. For instance, I got on overunity for a motor that was disproved in the long run. The tpu stole my heart, and I found all sorts of new inventions being worked on. So in reality, I doubt this is the real inventor. :)
@ yadaraf
That's amazing! - pure ingenuity at its best. I am curious about the similarities in the two devices, as i have not seen OMNI's device yet.
is it also an octagon of similar size/proportion/distance to the stator as the original device?
that (smaller) peak you are seeing , i think if this design were the theoretical perfect - would be at exactly 333hz. notice that this is approx. 1/3 of the 1khz operating speed of this design.
if the microphone is sensitive enough you should also be picking up a 'beat' frequency at around 3khz ???
this is due to the sound emmited from the small stator, combining with the sound of the rotor.
when i complete my decagon design, it would be nice to examine the acoustics on that to compare them.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 05, 2008, 05:59:13 PM
@Yadaraf,
"Q: If some one can explain why there is a 20dB increase at 172.3 Hz after the rotor accelerates, I'd appreciate it. "
Could it be that that's the stator bearing after it's latched at AGW rotation? When I get my rotor back (on Thursday, hopefully) I'll send you an audio sample with the stator latched in AGW rotation (not difficult to achieve after applying penetrating lubricating oil) to see if there would be such characteristic frequency at all, and whether or not it would increase after the AGW latch.
172.3Hz seems to be present in many 44.1KHz samples. Evidently this is somehow related to the A/D conversion at 256bit resloution.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 14, 2008, 05:35:33 PM
@ Stephan,
I know this might be a pain, but if you could cross-reference "AL"s IP information, perhaps another user on this forum is posting from the same IP, under a different login?
That would help to distinguish if this is the real "AL" or no.
Well no,
he just has until now only posted this one message
and under this IP number also nobody else was posting,so there is no crossreference.
Here is his Dial-In provider:
host48-36-dynamic.13-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it
So maybe someone can check if this is just a proxy server ?
Many thanks.
So this thread has a new post from "alsetalokin". Lawrence's thread has a bunch of posts from the devil. It's hard to say which is more likely: that the real alsetalokin has posted a confession into this thread from Italy, or that the real Devil has been posting into Lawrence's thread from Hell.
Quote from: Mr.Entropy on February 14, 2008, 09:31:07 PM
So this thread has a new post from "alsetalokin". Lawrence's thread has a bunch of posts from the devil. It's hard to say which is more likely: that the real alsetalokin has posted a confession into this thread from Italy, or that the real Devil has been posting into Lawrence's thread from Hell.
LOL ;D
That was funny!!
Quote from: Mr.Entropy on February 14, 2008, 09:31:07 PM
So this thread has a new post from "alsetalokin". Lawrence's thread has a bunch of posts from the devil. It's hard to say which is more likely: that the real alsetalokin has posted a confession into this thread from Italy, or that the real Devil has been posting into Lawrence's thread from Hell.
maybe.... they're one and the same?
@ stephan
their proxy appears to be @
host198-62-static.50-88-b.business.telecomitalia.it [88.50.63.198]
the 87.13.36.48 is 12 hops further into their network. i cant see past the proxy.
Quote from: ken_nyus on February 14, 2008, 04:01:49 PM
Quote from: alsetaIokin on February 14, 2008, 03:40:34 PM
@all
Jokes should not be carried too far. I liked your work, your prototypes, your enthusiasm, but now it's time to stop all the game and open your eyes.
I must admit: my movie was a hoax, a beautiful hoax. A big electic motor was hidden under the table, it was turned on by using a pedal.
There is no free-energy. It doesn't exist. Don't you believe me? I don't care.
@OC
Sorry, mate!
@believers
The facts: I was threaten by some unknown guys, that found my home. Those MIBs took my working machine. Obviously I decided to give up for my sake. :-(
14-02-08 The End. :-\
No one knows what is really happening, but this post, to me, is from someone who does not speak English as their primary language.
Al's language has always been perfect.
To make this believable, please go to fizzx and post the same thing under Al's id there.
Hey guys, thats a capital i in there not a lower case L.
author=alsetaIokin
A hypothesis about magnetic force and atomic structure.
Suppose there is a infinity fine small particle fill up the space. It has no mass but has electric charge. Let's call it energytron, it's mass is zero, it's charge is a fiction of an electron. Because energytron has no mass, we can hardly detect it. But since it has charge, it conducts electromagnetic wave.
In a hydrogen atom model, energytron attracted by proton and become a dense ball around the proton, its dencity is 1/rxrxr, its electric strenth is 1/rxr, relate to the distance to the proton. Electron attracted by the protron also, but it will be pushing back by the ball of energytron and balance at a certain r. (pretend earth is a protron, air is energytron, weather bloom is electron)
If we knock the atom, electromagnetic wave will send out. Electrons are not moving around neclear but like a beach ball up and down with wave.
If we concentrate proton or electron in a plan (flat area), magnet field will produced, Magnet field is nothing but magnetised space. It is one plan of densed energytron attracts next plan of loosed energytron and so on. Its strenth reverse to distance.
There is no single pole, it can not exist.
Time to smoke, have a great night!
Quote from: Harvey on February 14, 2008, 08:36:02 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 05, 2008, 05:59:13 PM
@Yadaraf,
"Q: If some one can explain why there is a 20dB increase at 172.3 Hz after the rotor accelerates, I'd appreciate it. "
Could it be that that's the stator bearing after it's latched at AGW rotation? When I get my rotor back (on Thursday, hopefully) I'll send you an audio sample with the stator latched in AGW rotation (not difficult to achieve after applying penetrating lubricating oil) to see if there would be such characteristic frequency at all, and whether or not it would increase after the AGW latch.
172.3Hz seems to be present in many 44.1KHz samples. Evidently this is somehow related to the A/D conversion at 256bit resloution.
Harvey,Thanks for the observation. After additional analyses of the WMV file (not the FLV) a few days ago, I observed that the LO tone of 172.3 actually increased during acceleration.
... Full discussion here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg76260.html#msg76260
... and here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg76218.html#msg76218
In short, I took 25 audio samples of Al's device as it accelerated and observed that a LO tone and a HI tone were coupled (harmonics). Here's a snippet of the data:
S LO HI Ratio
=====================
01 164.19 826.34 5.03
02 166.88 826.34 4.95
..
..
24 177.65 866.71 4.88
25 177.65 872.09 4.91
I agree with you about sampling artifacts, and I think these threw me off when I analyzed the original FLV. The WMV analyses, however, was different. In fact, there is a small (~5Hz) difference between the two audios, suggesting different sampling rates.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
If we concentrate proton or electron (by magnetising steel etc) in a plan (flat area), magnet field will be produced. Magnet field is nothing but magnetised space. It is one plan (area) of densed energytron attracts next plan of loosed energytron and so on. Its strenth reverse to distance suqare (edited).
A magnet field is layers of densed and loosed energytron in space between two poles. From pole to pole, the dencity of energytron in the space is like this, super dense/super loose//very dense/very loose//......dense/loose//....very dense/very loose//super dense/super loose.
Poor English, hope you know what I mean.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 14, 2008, 08:21:05 PM
@ yadaraf
That's amazing! - pure ingenuity at its best. I am curious about the similarities in the two devices, as i have not seen OMNI's device yet.
is it also an octagon of similar size/proportion/distance to the stator as the original device?
that (smaller) peak you are seeing , i think if this design were the theoretical perfect - would be at exactly 333hz. notice that this is approx. 1/3 of the 1khz operating speed of this design.
if the microphone is sensitive enough you should also be picking up a 'beat' frequency at around 3khz ???
this is due to the sound emmited from the small stator, combining with the sound of the rotor.
when i complete my decagon design, it would be nice to examine the acoustics on that to compare them.
sm0ky2 ,Thanks for your observations. From what I've read and heard, Omni's device is octagonal and nearly identical to CLaNZeR's.
Q: Why do you think that a peak should occur at 333 Hz in the theoretical design?When you complete your decagon design, I would be very interested in analyzing the audio. Let me know before you record anything, however, because we have a few tips.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@All,
Recall the fake "xpenzif ." vs. the genuine "xpenzif": Here?s the post of the fake "xpenzif .": http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3482.msg57341.html#msg57341 . Not that the ?genuine? ?xpenzif? behaved any better, dropping out of sight after a half-hearted initial cooperation when people started replicating his device.
Recall @v71who claimed he talked to the author of the Lego motor: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3346.msg74649.html#msg74649 but then he switched and began claiming that he?s the author: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3346.msg74700.html#msg74700 . Not that the author of the Lego motor was anywhere to be found to discuss replicating his motor.
Recall someone Mike discussed here
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1988.0.html who wetted everybody?s appetite, even readily offering directions for some time how to go about replicating Bedini motor only to disappear without a trace.
And now the fake ?alsetaIokin? vs. the genuine ?alsetalokin?. Here?s the post of the fake ?alsetaIokin?: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg77010.html#msg77010 . Notice, if you browse through the list of members of this forum you?ll see that this person has tried to fake the handle first as ?alsetalokjn? but hasn?t liked it for obvious reasons which has made him find a sneakier way and the next day he has registered the ?alsetaIokin? whereby the letter ?l? and the capital i, that is, ?I? is displayed as the same letter in the postings of this forum. Just paste these two letters in Word to see the difference. Clever, isn?t it? The question remains, though, why wouldn?t the troll register the genuine ?alsetalokin? handle which doesn?t seem to exist in the forum members list? This is a question which only Stefan can answer. Could it be that the fake ?alsetaIokin? wanted to be discovered as a fake at that by @Harvey? The plot thickens which introduces a mildly entertaining element in this whole saga. As for the ?genuine? ?alsetalokin? only time will tell whether or not he?ll reappear after he suddenly ceased his ostensible cooperation with those who tried to replicate his device.
Recall, there was this Danny from Ohio who claimed he has Torbay motor working let alone Torbay himself who completely disappeared after his unsuccessful demonstration in New York City.
I?m not even mentioning the likes of Perendev or Steorn because they justify their behavior under the guise of protecting corporate interests. The examples above are from projects which were supposed to be disseminated openly as science requires.
Please feel free to add to this list. I think we should not forget this unfortunate experience when assessing validity of claims.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 15, 2008, 06:50:36 AM
@All,
And now the fake Ã,“alsetaIokinÃ,†vs. the genuine Ã,“alsetalokinÃ,â€. HereÃ,’s the post of the fake Ã,“alsetaIokinÃ,â€: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg77010.html#msg77010 . Notice, if you browse through the list of members of this forum youÃ,’ll see that this person has tried to fake the handle first as Ã,“alsetalokjnÃ,†but hasnÃ,’t liked it for obvious reasons which has made him find a sneakier way and the next day he has registered the Ã,“alsetaIokinÃ,†whereby the letter Ã,“lÃ,†and the capital i, that is, Ã,“IÃ,†is displayed as the same letter in the postings of this forum. Just paste these two letters in Word to see the difference. Clever, isnÃ,’t it? The question remains, though, why wouldnÃ,’t the troll register the genuine Ã,“alsetalokinÃ,†handle which doesnÃ,’t seem to exist in the forum members list? This is a question which only Stefan can answer. Could it be that the fake Ã,“alsetaIokinÃ,†wanted to be discovered as a fake at that by @Harvey? The plot thickens which introduces a mildly entertaining element in this whole saga. As for the Ã,“genuineÃ,†Ã,“alsetalokinÃ,†only time will tell whether or not heÃ,’ll reappear after he suddenly ceased his ostensible cooperation with those who tried to replicate his device.
Yes, I have no idea why someone has not registered the real name either....LOL
Regards
Rob
Quote from: magpower on February 14, 2008, 05:31:08 PM
Quote From Al
And yes, the Middle stator does flip easily--it's on the best bearing of all 13. But it is jut a coincidence that the rotor wasn't in just the right position to respond well to the stator when I was wiggling it. I can hold any one of the stators, turn it to just the right angle, and from there, if the rotor is also just right, I can get the rotor to move around quite well as shown in the video--with any of the stators.
I found this today so just maybe we need 2 sticky bearings or greater friction and the center one must really be the best to flip easy, makes sense as he tried 13 and only 3 worked!
Wayne
@All
After building Al's rig and many 4 rotor versions still no go. Last night spent 3 hours trying greater friction bearings on the outside and best in middle. Noticed a little longer run down time, but saw no joy. My fingers are worn. I still think there is something missing. Either he had hidden latches or something else. Bruce was trying to find the same bearings and if someone has one, take one apart I would like to see the inside balls bearings and number. My understanding is he got the 4 by 5 unit to sort of work then went bigger, could be wrong. I won't give up and bought some new bearings today and going to use metal screws/bolts to hold down stators, like Al's next. Really I think by now somebody should on heard or seen the rotor pick up speed, then drop out as things are wrong, but nothing yet!!
Cheers and Good Luck
Wayne
Re: the recent fake Al posts...
If you guys go over to fizzx and look up any of Al's posts, you can see he has changed his avatar image, it now says something like "If you see this anywhere other than fizzx, it is not me..."
...and on my own replication front, I finally found a 4-40 thread tap and drill today, and I will finally screw down my stators and see what I get this weekend. I have two types of bearings to play with, one set all steel, one set with ceramic balls.
I kept seeing the term "GW/AGW" appearing in the converaiton, so I spend most of the night trying to figure out what you guys were talking about. im still kind of vague on the issue...
Is this because of the two extra stators left over form the original design from which this phenomenon was "accidently" discovered?
i look at this from the standpoint of synchronization - between the rotor and stator.
The stator - being the most difficult piece to construct/modify - should be our Constant.
We should therefore design a method of adjusting our Stator.
1) size
2) location
If we set stator size (magnetic field size) to a constant - then the we are left with one adjusting parameter.
Distance.
set your stator at a distance from the rotor - and turn it (i geared mine off a rubber-tipped dremmell-bit to make it spin), adjust the distance while turning the rotor by hand in the same direction of the stator.
you'll see it when they synch-up, cause the rotor will take over and you wont need to keep turning it, it will just drive off the stator. - i tested this using a 16-pole rotor which is missing what seems to be a crucial piece of this design, as it quickly lost synch when i took the dremmel off. ( the 16-pole rotor did not have the opposing fields facing each other as the original 4-pole design has)
I am going to use this method to adjust the stator location on the new 10-sided (5-pole) rotor im building.
hopefuly that will allow me to get it operating along the lines as some of you guy's 8-sided replications
GW = Gear wise
AGW = Antigearwise
Picture the rotor and stator as gears. ;)
@forgers and falsifiers,
May I suggest you some 'user names' that could, perhaps, work for a (very) short while:
aIsetalokin
aIsetaIokin
aIsetal0kin
Etc...
Or also:
AIsetalokin
AIsetaIokin
AIsetal0kin
As the forum's software is "case sensitive".
BTW: a dot at the end of the name has already been used and promptly detected by Omnibus (with an upper case 'O' ),if I am not mistaken.
@Builders : Very Best.
Quote from: ken_nyus on February 15, 2008, 01:36:57 PM
Re: the recent fake Al posts...
If you guys go over to fizzx and look up any of Al's posts, you can see he has changed his avatar image, it now says something like "If you see this anywhere other than fizzx, it is not me..."
...and on my own replication front, I finally found a 4-40 thread tap and drill today, and I will finally screw down my stators and see what I get this weekend. I have two types of bearings to play with, one set all steel, one set with ceramic balls.
Nice going Ken!
I have everything but the bearings... I thought that I'd be able to find them locally but no luck... especially 1/2 x 1/4 flanged one to press into the rotor... I can't find 1/2 x 1/8 for the stators either....
could you recommend an online source?? part numbers would be nice too...
I did find some nice 4-40 ss screws that don't look like they'll need any head grinding...
Quote from: ken_nyus on February 15, 2008, 01:36:57 PM
Re: the recent fake Al posts...
If you guys go over to fizzx and look up any of Al's posts, you can see he has changed his avatar image, it now says something like "If you see this anywhere other than fizzx, it is not me..."
...and on my own replication front, I finally found a 4-40 thread tap and drill today, and I will finally screw down my stators and see what I get this weekend. I have two types of bearings to play with, one set all steel, one set with ceramic balls.
Nice going Ken!
I have everything but the bearings... I thought that I'd be able to find them locally but no luck... especially 1/2 x 1/4 flanged one to press into the rotor... I can't find 1/2 x 1/8 for the stators either....
could you recommend an online source?? part numbers would be nice too...
I did find some nice 4-40 ss screws that don't look like they'll need any head grinding...
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 15, 2008, 02:12:07 PM
I kept seeing the term "GW/AGW" appearing in the converaiton, so I spend most of the night trying to figure out what you guys were talking about. im still kind of vague on the issue...
Is this because of the two extra stators left over form the original design from which this phenomenon was "accidently" discovered?
i look at this from the standpoint of synchronization - between the rotor and stator.
The stator - being the most difficult piece to construct/modify - should be our Constant.
We should therefore design a method of adjusting our Stator.
1) size
2) location
If we set stator size (magnetic field size) to a constant - then the we are left with one adjusting parameter.
Distance.
set your stator at a distance from the rotor - and turn it (i geared mine off a rubber-tipped dremmell-bit to make it spin), adjust the distance while turning the rotor by hand in the same direction of the stator.
you'll see it when they synch-up, cause the rotor will take over and you wont need to keep turning it, it will just drive off the stator. - i tested this using a 16-pole rotor which is missing what seems to be a crucial piece of this design, as it quickly lost synch when i took the dremmel off. ( the 16-pole rotor did not have the opposing fields facing each other as the original 4-pole design has)
I am going to use this method to adjust the stator location on the new 10-sided (5-pole) rotor im building.
hopefuly that will allow me to get it operating along the lines as some of you guy's 8-sided replications
sm0ky2,AGW is actually another way to say that "the stator and rotor rotate in the same direction" (i.e. co-rotate). In mechanical systems, the driven gear will always rotate in the opposite direction of the drive gear, but this is not true of magnetic systems.
I have a video that show this and will post it today.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
GW = gear wise
AGW = anti gear wise
.
Omni,
... Q: Does your rig have an aerodynamic cover like CLaNZeR's
Cheers, :)
Yada...
.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 15, 2008, 03:56:15 PM
.
Omni,
... Q: Does your rig have an aerodynamic cover like CLaNZeR's
Cheers, :)
Yada...
.
No, it doesn't. Both my rotors were made exactly according to the specifications in Jason's drawings (except for a small cylindrical extension in the center on one of the rotors to allow spinning it via a thread).
Quote from: JFK on February 15, 2008, 02:49:01 PM
GW = Gear wise
AGW = Antigearwise
Picture the rotor and stator as gears. ;)
thanks JFK , i was confused because it was often used with the work 'lock' -> AGW-Lock
i was thinking it was some accronym i had missed.. banging myself in the head now, because that it was something so simple....
the more i watch this device go through its cycles, the more i want to call it "magnetic monopoles". Artifically created by placing like poles facing each other around the stator. - essentially turning 8 magnetic dipoles
(16 poles) into 8 monopoles. a set of 4 N-monopoles in a cross-pattern,
and a set of 4 S-monopoles in a cross pattern, turned 45-degrees
when the N's are synched up, the stator turns off of the 4 N nonopoles from its N side.
when you synch it up with the S poles, the same thing occurs, just using the 4 opposite points.
the "non-repelling" poles pull the stator around at the moment just before the "dead zone". Then if you watch the lines of flux as the two like poles come together (AGW!!) they begin to compress like a spring - but the force is in the direction of rotation kind of trapping it, so the stator - instead of flipping back the other direction away from its like-pole - turns with the rotor and the lines of flux compress, then expand again as the magnets pass each other and repel away. Along comes the opposite monopole, sucking the stator right back into position.
i know they are not technically magnetic "monopoles". but the field they present, is essentially the same.
at least from the perspective of the stator.
Quote from: geodan on February 15, 2008, 03:09:03 PM
I have everything but the bearings... I thought that I'd be able to find them locally but no luck... especially 1/2 x 1/4 flanged one to press into the rotor... I can't find 1/2 x 1/8 for the stators either....
could you recommend an online source?? part numbers would be nice too...
I got my stator bearings from bocabearings.com
The all steel ones are 0.5 OD x 0.125 ID x 0.171 wide, I did not find any 3/16 wide which is 0.1875. The space in the standard stator is 0.175 so I figured 0.171 was good.
http://bocabearings.com/main1.aspx?p=product&id=8207&n=SR2A-ZZ_#3
The ones with ceramic balls are 0.1719 wide, again I figured close enough.
http://bocabearings.com/main1.aspx?p=product&id=2793&n=SR2AC-ZZ_#3
Both are ABEC3, which is medium quality.
Quote from: ken_nyus on February 15, 2008, 07:11:49 PM
Quote from: geodan on February 15, 2008, 03:09:03 PM
I have everything but the bearings... I thought that I'd be able to find them locally but no luck... especially 1/2 x 1/4 flanged one to press into the rotor... I can't find 1/2 x 1/8 for the stators either....
could you recommend an online source?? part numbers would be nice too...
I got my stator bearings from bocabearings.com
The all steel ones are 0.5 OD x 0.125 ID x 0.171 wide, I did not find any 3/16 wide which is 0.1875. The space in the standard stator is 0.175 so I figured 0.171 was good.
http://bocabearings.com/main1.aspx?p=product&id=8207&n=SR2A-ZZ_#3
The ones with ceramic balls are 0.1719 wide, again I figured close enough.
http://bocabearings.com/main1.aspx?p=product&id=2793&n=SR2AC-ZZ_#3
Both are ABEC3, which is medium quality.
Thanks Ken!
Hello everyone!
I don't know if I should bring a new magnet path concept in here, but I found something that seems to show some gain potential.
I was thinking of the unipolar motor and how it rotates in a single field and uses a DC current which makes a magnet from the wire. What you then have is a magnet spinning on a magnet. So why is it impossible to use a magnet to replace the battery and wire when the two of them only make a magnet?
Anyway I found a method that may be doing just that. :o
You can check out the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uPp50-wXzw
I won't be here for a few weeks so if you have any questions, sorry, I can't help at this time.
Interesting Lumen,
Look foward to more on that.
Hi Lumen,
It looks good, I wonder if the blue arm is pressing magnetically on the disc because of the table slope.
It would be good to see the arm balanced weight wize.
That does lead on to an idea for having the whipmag stator magnets offset from the axle centre slightly but dynamically weight balanced, so we get the cam effect you are seeing.
Regards
Rob
Final OCMPMM Replication Video from me guys.
Spent enough time on this one and time too move onto the next Project.
Will keep the parts at hand, just incase AL comes forward again or someone hits Jackpot.
One thing you learn when messing around with others FE idea's is when too move on!
YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZXX2f4-ojU
Hi Res Direct Download:
http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/CLaNZeRSOCMPMMFinalVideo.wmv (45meg)
My CONCLUSION on this: Not sure at the moment, too many factors that we do not know, but what I do know is that I shared a lot of stuff that I experimented with publicly and did hell of alot more that I did not have time too share. But still not even close to the weird effect shown on Alestalkin original video.
Right what's the next Project? :)
Cheers
Sean.
Here's an update on Doug Furr's 1.5-scale replication that I have been involved with:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:Douglas_K._Furr (http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Replications:Douglas_K._Furr#Present_Status)
On Feb. 5, 2008, he completed his 1.5-scale version; he but has not been able to get it to accellerate or maintain speed. This could be attributed to several important differences between his replica and the original, including:
- magnet strength - Doug's stator magnet is very strong, and proportionally larger
- device material -
- holding screws - metalic
- size of bearings and holders
Some observations. One Feb. 5, we had three of us there, one to focus on one stator magnet. Once or twice, we were able to get all three stator magnets spinning anti-gear-wise; and it did decrease the deceleration rate. We tried placing loose rotor magnets atop the stator magnets, but did not see accelleration or maintenance of speed. As the rotor spins quickly, the stator magnets are fairly stable to just stay somewhat stationary, slightly wobbling as the magnets pass by.
On Feb. 12, Doug built a new casing for the stator magnets so they could be turned with the air hose. We were never able to get that one spinning anti-gear-wise, even though we could spin the stator magnet very rapidly in that direction.
@ Jason O. or Bruce TPU, or
Doug would like to get closer to the specs called for in the original MPMM. At this point, where is the best compilation of exact materials?
Quote from: CLaNZeR on February 16, 2008, 04:03:21 PM...
Right what's the next Project? :)
...
Here it is (http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=N3NU22KxDaQ), but then large scale, of course...
Or a mod. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_43fb2Kf3M
;)
Quote from: JFK on February 16, 2008, 04:54:51 PM
Or a mod. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_43fb2Kf3M
;)
hehehe , trust Craigy to do a Video in Spanish.
Nice Rotor though :)
Quote from: JoinTheFun on February 16, 2008, 04:35:45 PM
Here it is (http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=N3NU22KxDaQ), but then large scale, of course...
Been there, done that, as soon as it is under load it stops very quickly, unless you know something we do not?
Cheers
Sean.
Hello all,
I spoke with my bearing guy yesterday, and he has given up. People will not return emails, or phone calls.
Monday, I will attempt to call and get the information myself. I will keep trying.
I switched out my N38's for N35's and got much better AGW, with the rotor at high speed.
I am going to order and try some even weaker rotor magnets. My N35's are better than the N38's and I think weaker is better.
I have posted my latest video. Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EffHs8n6oo0
Cheers,
Bruce
Sean
Special thanks for all your work in such a short time. Sad this never worked. I have made many versions and same story. Really looks like coming to the end, but I have a few more tries on spare fingers! Just wondering on your final version what was distance from outside edge rotor magnet to edge of stator magnet in mm. Just looks bigger gap than Al's. We see next guy disappear like always and gets bought out. I assume Al's is on a hot beach with drink in hand. Cheers
Wayne
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 16, 2008, 08:44:11 PM
Hello all,
I spoke with my bearing guy yesterday, and he has given up. People will not return emails, or phone calls.
Monday, I will attempt to call and get the information myself. I will keep trying.
I switched out my N38's for N35's and got much better AGW, with the rotor at high speed.
I am going to order and try some even weaker rotor magnets. My N35's are better than the N38's and I think weaker is better.
I have posted my latest video. Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EffHs8n6oo0
Cheers,
Bruce
Bruce
Great work also and our last draw is real bearings like Al's. I think this project might take some time for all pieces but let me know. I tried the wobble rotor today but nothing, duds in stator, just no rotor change. Going back Al's smaller scale and maybe catch what he saw.
Wayne
@Bruce_TPU,
I have also tried with N35 and can't really tell whether this exchange or the application of the "liquid wrench" lubricant made it easier to lock in AGW. Anyway, I think it's a good idea to try it with even weaker rotor magnets (for the same mechanical configuration). Where are you going to order your weaker magnets from?
Also, maybe different lubricants can be tried for the rotor and the stators, say, slower for the rotor and faster ("liquid wrench") for the stators or vice versa. That will affect the timing. Maybe varying lubricants and trying different dampers can be an easier substitute for changing the weights of the rotor and stators which seems crucial for the timing. This may also spare the effort to look for other bearings.
Finding the right conditions for proper timing is the gist not only with this motor.
My final attempt at this, was a 10-sided polygon, with the stator sized specifically to 'gear' off of the rotor.
this allowed for a near-perfect AWG-synchronization at higher speeds.
With the last design, the induction-rods are not even necesary for high-rpm stabalization
But alas, i could not achieve any self-acceleration like in the original video.
If the original device worked like it was calimed to have, my thoughts are that it must be something more than just a pure magnetic coupling, driving it. Perhaps the secret lies in the rythimic motion of the stator magnets, this maybe is not a linear rotation.
with all but the last design - low-rpm tests would confer this, the stator spins in unison when like poles are passing -> then a dead zone -> then spins very quickly as the attraction of the opposite pole lines the stator up -> then dead zone -> and the cycle repeats itself.
unfortunately i do not have any way to tell if this is occuring at high rpm. should it be?
with the purely synchronized rotor/stator (last one i built) this does not occur at all, they turn together perfectly throughout the cycle. - it does not appear that there is any net power gain from that, the difference in RPM is converted to torque, and they slowly decellerate over time.
So, any chance at reproducing this phenomenon, is going lie in a non-linear rotation of the stator, compared to the linear movement of the rotor. If this in fact occurs at high rpm, could the difference in the stators' rotational speed during the attraction/repulsion phases of its cycle generate enough inertia to give the rotor a 'kick' ?
im not going to dismantle the rotors just yet, probably going on the shelf though or incorporated into new experiments. theres just too many variables and im starting to lose momentum with this project seeing as noone has reported any significant results from their replications.
@ClaNZeR,
The problems encountered when one attempts through the setup you?ve shown here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4kq1oNMtws
and here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLLXuH2YPYk
to have the ball make full turns in a self-sustaining manner are exactly the same as in a device such as the one shown by @xpenzif. It?s just a different design but the principle is the same. Try, for instance, removing one or two of the diagonal columns in @xpenzif?s device and you will observe that, self-starting, the cylinder will make almost a full turn. The problem is to make the cylinder make full turns on its own when all the diagonal columns are there and are acting in concert. This is a very subtle task to achieve which @xpenzif, unlike anybody else, has been able to do. Notice that when you?re placing the ball at its initial position there are no magnet stations behind it. Thus, the ball is only experiencing a forward pull. Don?t get deceived that the ball exiting the first station exits the second and so on. This is an aftereffect of the ball having it?s highest potential energy at the very beginning, before entering the first station. An analogy is when a ball is overcoming a hill when made let go from an even taller earlier hill.
Imagine, however, if there?s a series of equally tall hills, as would be the case when there are earlier stations, before the place where you first positioned the ball to commence the experiment?the ball will not have enough energy to overcome even the next hill. All these equivalent stations will form a common cooperative field with troughs and hills which the ball has to overcome. This won?t be possible because in a real experiment the work necessary to bring the ball at the top of the hill will always be greater, due to losses, than the energy the ball has at the bottom of the hill.
One way to deal with this is to have another field, properly overlaid, to aid the ball in overcoming every following hill. The way this occurs in Johannes Taisnierius? device (the contemporary SMOT, that is) proving conclusively violation of CoE. In @xpenzif?s device this second, independent field is claimed to be that of the stepper motor, something none of the replicators paid attention to.
There is a hope that a design such as the one invented by @alsetalokin may be one practical contraption for such proper overlaid fields that would allow continuous production of excess energy but its principle of action is still pretty unclear. As you know, I discounted it initially out of hand because it isn?t self-starting. However, the construction of the device which enables it to work may not be just a stationary placement of its different parts with respect to each other. It may be that for the desired additional effect of acceleration to kick in it may be absolutely essential (as part of the construction) that some of these parts are in mutual motion. Once this additional effect of acceleration appears (enabled by the initial setting in motion of some of the parts of the machine) it may be that the initial input of energy to move these parts is more than compensated further when the effect of acceleration emerges.
Now, I?ve read what @Grimer and @Harvey have to say about the principle driving these devices but so far I don?t see the mechanism for the appearance of the excess energy in their theories. In addition, as far as I can see even if there is anything of substance in these theories ultimately it will converge into the principle involved in Johannes Taisnierius? device. A this moment it is really unclear to anybody, including those who have shown experimental success, how this, so far only viable principle, can be harnessed to make reproducibly a practical device producing excess energy continuously. We are all shooting in the dark at present which I hope will gradually change as we gain more and more experience both by trying to work on the current design and by exploring the principle in various other contraptions as you?ve decided to do. I?d rather try to deepen the understanding regarding one or a limited number of devices (like I said all these devices are based on the same underlying principles), especially when they seem to be governed by fewer parameters to explore, as @alsetalokin?s, and that?s why I?ll stay for now with this one and @xpenzif?s. People are different in their approach, however, and what is important is to achieve success even if someone like me would think that spreading out too thin doesn?t provide the shortest road for that. Good luck.
CLaNZeR,
Great working with you, mate.
I envy you. You have lots of skills, machines, and "stuff" to play with. Your TriForce experiments look fun. Go for it.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on February 16, 2008, 08:44:11 PM
Hello all,
I spoke with my bearing guy yesterday, and he has given up. People will not return emails, or phone calls.
Monday, I will attempt to call and get the information myself. I will keep trying.
I switched out my N38's for N35's and got much better AGW, with the rotor at high speed.
I am going to order and try some even weaker rotor magnets. My N35's are better than the N38's and I think weaker is better.
I have posted my latest video. Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EffHs8n6oo0
Cheers,
Bruce
It took an amazing effort to resist posting a comment on the video in reply to Desertphile. People like that really annoy me. He's clearly spent too long in the caves...
;D What a loser that guy is.... did you see all the debunking videos he has on youtube ?
I think there maybe something in the Ocal, although its looking bleak. The thing we have to bear in mind tho is that magnetic interations , and their force , varies enormously with distance. It seems very unlikly to me now that Al could just plonk the stators at an airgap distance of 5mm without any real way of adjusting them. I know he did some preliminary tests on other rigs he made , but i still think he must have been very lucky to hit the spot the way he did.
I was on the steorn forum talking to Ali during one of his rigs prolonged runs, i asked while it was running if he could remove one of the statonary stators. He did , but as he was removing it , he hit the rotor and the thing stopped. I never got the answer to my question which was , is it really nessasary to have the other 2 stators? Anyone building these things looks for the most basic form of an effect. It makes the maths easier and leads to understanding. That approch seemed to be lacking in Al.
For what its worth i have got agw lock in the standard configuration, and also at x8 by making all poles alternate. at times the stator gets a hell of a kick from the spinning rotor to bring it to lock , and that could be taken as acceleration i suppose , but it is just transfer of energy from rotor to stator..
@Craigy,
I was thinking the same. These two extra stators have always seemed to me as an impediment. On the other hand they may play a role in ensuring a proper timing. Who knows? It seems that in order to have acceleration certain asymmetric resonant conditions have to be ensured whereby at a certain moment the rotor has to lag behind the stator but then, after escaping the sticky spot the stator should lag behind the rotor and so on. Obviously, these conditions cannot be achieved just like that and we have to seek the correct weight and field proportions which will ensure them.
As for the acceleration of the stator at AGW lock I see it too and it seems to vary. Sometimes the acceleration is quite pronounced after the AGW lock at other times it seems hardly detectable.
Another thing which has always bothered me is the weight of the stator. Even my 237g rotor seems too heavy for this tiny stator to drive it. The original is with a rotor heavier than 258g vs. a 10g stator, though, and that's what the conditions are for the effect to appear. That feels counterintuitive but that's the nature of this whole business and that makes it so challenging.
Did you guys see CLaNZer's latest project just started today? This is amazing!:
> Think the Tri-Force Gate is my next bit of fun.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4kq1oNMtws
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLLXuH2YPYk
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nmVEOf0q9dk
> http://overunity.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=116.0
>
> I played with a Smot ramp for ages the other year and never had it perform as good as this, so might be worth knocking up a rotor to try!
This gets past the sticky point in both directions! I can't wait to see his rotor version attempt.
@whetherman,
@CLaNZeR doesn't need to show a rotor version. It will be enough to show the dumbell rolling on its own in a closed loop to pronounce this as an earthshaking achievement. That won't be easy, though, as I explained in one of my previous postings. The underlying principle is similar to @xpenzif's without the overlaid stepper motor field. Let us wish him success in this difficult pursuit. @CLaNZeR has always been one of the most interesting and determined researchers in this area.
@Omnibus
Yes, CLaNZeR doesn't have to show a rotor version, but I think that's the easiest way to close the loop. That should be much easier than making a circle out of the gates he's started with on a flat surface. With what he's demonstrated so far, it should be almost easy for people to build and test the rotor version.
sharing some interesting sites:
http://magnetmotor.go-here.nl/
http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/OscilacijeEng.html
http://www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/menu/adsitt.htm
http://www.matchrockets.com/ether/halbach.html
http://www.fdp.nu/free_energy.asp?book=90 (well khown by now)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/34317/Spintronics-The-Secret-World-of-Magnets-2006-by-Howard-Johnson (must read)
keep us inspired:
http://www.gammamanager.com/
and related to this last ideia:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/smotidx.htm
http://gabydewilde.googlepages.com/gauss-cannon
http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Magnetic_Motors:PM3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMldU0kbcWE
http://www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/magneticExp/adsitt/reguage.htm
Fausto.
@Ominbus
What is xpenzif's stepper motor field?
Quote from: Omnibus on February 17, 2008, 07:04:05 PM
@Craigy,
I was thinking the same. These two extra stators have always seemed to me as an impediment. On the other hand they may play a role in ensuring a proper timing. Who knows? It seems that in order to have acceleration certain asymmetric resonant conditions have to be ensured whereby at a certain moment the rotor has to lag behind the stator but then, after escaping the sticky spot the stator should lag behind the rotor and so on. Obviously, these conditions cannot be achieved just like that and we have to seek the correct weight and field proportions which will ensure them.
As for the acceleration of the stator at AGW lock I see it too and it seems to vary. Sometimes the acceleration is quite pronounced after the AGW lock at other times it seems hardly detectable.
Craigy, Omni,Several weeks ago I speculated that the first speed plateau was related to the Schumann resonance of 7.8 Hz. When I attempted to demonstrate this I assumed a stator speed of 1200 RPM, which turned out to be incorrect. From the WMV file, it became clear that the stator speed at the first instance of self-sustaining rotation is 1700 RPM, which implies a rotor speed of 425 RPM (4:1).
...
425 RPM = 7.0 HzNote that a rotor speed of 468 RPM produces 7.8 Hz, and it's possible that Al's measurement was off slightly.
I've been inducing mechanical vibrations @ 8Hz, but probably I should be using EM waves. I am considering placing three "speaker" coils around/near the stators and applying an 8 Hz signal. Basically, I will be attempting to simulate a local Schumann Resonance.
Something to consider is that Al supposedly lives in Canada and he got his device to spin when the auroras -- in his backyard? -- were very active.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@Charlie_V,
The motor which @xpenzif showed consists of a drum (spindle) with 14 diagonal columns of ferromagnetic pieces which the field of the stator ?sees? as 14 maximums and corresponding minimums. That?s the obvious part. This drum is placed on a hard drive stepper motor which has its own independent magnetic field forming 8 maximums and corresponding minimums. This part isn?t obvious from the demonstrated device. Thus, within the distance between two maximums of the stepper motor there are 1.75 distances between maximums of the drum. These two fields (the 14-barrier drum field and the 8-barrier stepper motor field) are somehow properly superimposed through fine adjustment so that they can assist each other to produce a net force in a predominant direction. Unfortunately, so far I haven?t been able to locate an 8-barrier hard drive stepper motor. Most of these motors are 24-barrier or 12-barrier.
I was able to replicate the tri-force gate effect in 10 minutes! (including the time it took to tape off the north ends of the triangle bar magnets).
I got it working through 2 gates in both directions to prove to myself that it gets by the sticky point. For once I don't have to rely on someone's word that the effect exists.
CLaNZeR's rotor looks perfect, although I agree he should turn the triangles so the bar magnet passes through the same plane, as if it is lying on the table. I don't see how CLaNZeR's rotor could fail after what I've seen with my own eyes.
@whetherman,
That?s great you could get it working through 2 gates. I?m afraid this far could be achieved in various other ways, however. The problem begins when you have all the stations assembled with the intention to have the rotor make full turns. Then all these stations cooperate to form a set of symmetric potential troughs and hills which can only be overcome sequentially by the assistance of an additionally properly superimposed field (without such additional field it can only make a partial turn due to the imperfections causing one of the hills to be higher than the rest). Johannes Taisnierius device (contemporary SMOT, that is) is the best example in this respect which probably finds application in devices such that of @alsetalokin whereby the rotor field is assisted by the changing stator field. So far I don?t see how the gain when going from hill to trough can be compensated by the loss when going from trough to hill without the assistance of an additional field as in SMOT. I?m following with great interest @ClaNZeR?s experiment and will be glad to be proven wrong.
what if you have the track wrap around 3/4's of the wheel
and use gravity to turn it the rest of the way + reposition it to enter the track again.
i can get about 35-degree incline tilting the book with the tri-force-gates on it, and it still goes through the gates. tried to get 45-degrees but it was no good. maybe i can adjust things a bit, distance ect. and get a better incline, but even at 35 we just make a larger circle.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 18, 2008, 05:36:55 AM
what if you have the track wrap around 3/4's of the wheel
and use gravity to turn it the rest of the way + reposition it to enter the track again.
i can get about 35-degree incline tilting the book with the tri-force-gates on it, and it still goes through the gates. tried to get 45-degrees but it was no good. maybe i can adjust things a bit, distance ect. and get a better incline, but even at 35 we just make a larger circle.
If you can do that and it can start making full turns on its own it will be amazing. Notice the axis of @zpenzif's device is also slightly tilted.
Sprain should re-jigger his motor so that the magnets on the circumference become a stack of two sets of tri-force magnets. Then the rotor would whirl between them and he would have OU without the need for the electromagnet. It looks like clanzer is setting up to do that anyway.
Do you think this is what Steorn is using for its Orbo? Let's hope not, since we've seen how useless that turned out to be.
Quote from: canam101 on February 18, 2008, 09:15:10 AM
Sprain should re-jigger his motor so that the magnets on the circumference become a stack of two sets of tri-force magnets. Then the rotor would whirl between them and he would have OU without the need for the electromagnet. It looks like clanzer is setting up to do that anyway.
Do you think this is what Steorn is using for its Orbo? Let's hope not, since we've seen how useless that turned out to be.
Again, it won't be able to make full turns without the aid of an additional field. To convince himself @CLaNZeR has to do what @Ice D'Bear suggested:
QuoteQuoteCLaNZeR:
Also just posted a 3rd video as a answer to somone commenting on YouTube
< http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nmVEOf0q9dk >
You didn't start in the middle of the whole array. Can you try an even number of gates and put the roller in the exact middle?
Quote from: Omnibus on February 18, 2008, 09:28:00 AM
Quote from: canam101 on February 18, 2008, 09:15:10 AM
Sprain should re-jigger his motor so that the magnets on the circumference become a stack of two sets of tri-force magnets. Then the rotor would whirl between them and he would have OU without the need for the electromagnet. It looks like clanzer is setting up to do that anyway.
Do you think this is what Steorn is using for its Orbo? Let's hope not, since we've seen how useless that turned out to be.
Again, it won't be able to make full turns without the aid of an additional field. To convince himself @CLaNZeR has to do what @Ice D'Bear suggested:
QuoteQuoteCLaNZeR:
Also just posted a 3rd video as a answer to somone commenting on YouTube
< http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nmVEOf0q9dk >
You didn't start in the middle of the whole array. Can you try an even number of gates and put the roller in the exact middle?
I don't see what the middle of the array has to do with anything: when the roller exits the array, it is not being attracted back; it would continue until friction stopped it, but the array will not pull it back. That's the unusual thing, unlike any rotor/stator arrangement I have seen: the rotor gets free and clear of the stator.
Once the rotor leaves the first array, why couldn't it follow a cuved path to a second array and a third, etc., until it returned to the first array?
Quote from: Omnibus on February 18, 2008, 09:28:00 AM
Quote from: canam101 on February 18, 2008, 09:15:10 AM
Sprain should re-jigger his motor so that the magnets on the circumference become a stack of two sets of tri-force magnets. Then the rotor would whirl between them and he would have OU without the need for the electromagnet. It looks like clanzer is setting up to do that anyway.
Do you think this is what Steorn is using for its Orbo? Let's hope not, since we've seen how useless that turned out to be.
Again, it won't be able to make full turns without the aid of an additional field. To convince himself @CLaNZeR has to do what @Ice D'Bear suggested:
QuoteQuoteCLaNZeR:
Also just posted a 3rd video as a answer to somone commenting on YouTube
< http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nmVEOf0q9dk >
You didn't start in the middle of the whole array. Can you try an even number of gates and put the roller in the exact middle?
I don't see what the middle of the array has to do with anything: when the roller exits the array, it is not being attracted back; it would continue until friction stopped it, but the array will not pull it back. That's the unusual thing, unlike any rotor/stator arrangement I have seen: the rotor gets free and clear of the stator.
Once the rotor leaves the first array, why couldn't it follow a cuved path to a second array and a third, etc., until it returned to the first array?
Quote from: canam101 on February 18, 2008, 09:54:50 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 18, 2008, 09:28:00 AM
Quote from: canam101 on February 18, 2008, 09:15:10 AM
Sprain should re-jigger his motor so that the magnets on the circumference become a stack of two sets of tri-force magnets. Then the rotor would whirl between them and he would have OU without the need for the electromagnet. It looks like clanzer is setting up to do that anyway.
Do you think this is what Steorn is using for its Orbo? Let's hope not, since we've seen how useless that turned out to be.
Again, it won't be able to make full turns without the aid of an additional field. To convince himself @CLaNZeR has to do what @Ice D'Bear suggested:
QuoteQuoteCLaNZeR:
Also just posted a 3rd video as a answer to somone commenting on YouTube
< http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nmVEOf0q9dk >
You didn't start in the middle of the whole array. Can you try an even number of gates and put the roller in the exact middle?
I don't see what the middle of the array has to do with anything: when the roller exits the array, it is not being attracted back; it would continue until friction stopped it, but the array will not pull it back. That's the unusual thing, unlike any rotor/stator arrangement I have seen: the rotor gets free and clear of the stator.
Once the rotor leaves the first array, why couldn't it follow a cuved path to a second array and a third, etc., until it returned to the first array?
When you start from the middle of the array the rotor won't be able to leave the first array. It appears that it can when you start it asymmetrically but in the symmetric case it can't. Like I said, when all the arrays are intact a set of cooperatively formed uniform troughs and hills appears and even when starting from a given hill the energy gained going downhill will always be less (because of losses) than the energy needed to climb up to the top of the next hill. Unless a properly superimposed external field helps in that climb.
Quote from: canam101 on February 18, 2008, 09:56:47 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 18, 2008, 09:28:00 AM
Quote from: canam101 on February 18, 2008, 09:15:10 AM
Sprain should re-jigger his motor so that the magnets on the circumference become a stack of two sets of tri-force magnets. Then the rotor would whirl between them and he would have OU without the need for the electromagnet. It looks like clanzer is setting up to do that anyway.
Do you think this is what Steorn is using for its Orbo? Let's hope not, since we've seen how useless that turned out to be.
Again, it won't be able to make full turns without the aid of an additional field. To convince himself @CLaNZeR has to do what @Ice D'Bear suggested:
QuoteQuoteCLaNZeR:
Also just posted a 3rd video as a answer to somone commenting on YouTube
< http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nmVEOf0q9dk >
You didn't start in the middle of the whole array. Can you try an even number of gates and put the roller in the exact middle?
I don't see what the middle of the array has to do with anything: when the roller exits the array, it is not being attracted back; it would continue until friction stopped it, but the array will not pull it back. That's the unusual thing, unlike any rotor/stator arrangement I have seen: the rotor gets free and clear of the stator.
Once the rotor leaves the first array, why couldn't it follow a cuved path to a second array and a third, etc., until it returned to the first array?
Mr Entropy on Steorn Forum makes an important point. (http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60323&page=1#Item_23)
"After playing around with my son's magnetics set, it looks to me like there's a big potential hill of repulsion
you have to push through to get the rolling magnet into the starting position where it starts to attract."
I rather assumed that CLaNZeR would have noticed this but maybe not.
If the gate array field is terminated by hills at each end then there is still the possibility of motion in a large circular array. But I would like to see a long linear array first since this might well show breakdown. I suspect movement is only possible because the field lines are coming together over the first half of the assembly and coming apart over the second. In short, there can be no movement where the lines are parallel. With a very long magnets I think the lines break out which is why you can't have long magnets. I seem to remember Cyril Smith making this point.
That ends the devil's advocacy. ;)
There may be other factors such as rotation which could be important. The experimental demonstrations are certainly very enticing.
Paul Sprain is solving that business with the needed external field radically through "brute force"--he creates that external field by spending energy externally. This may prove to be the most efficient practical way of handling this matter after the reality of motors producing excess energy continuously is accepted by the society at large. For such acceptance to occur it is necessary to demonstrate continuous production of excess energy by superimposing conservative fields which exist without spending of any energy to create them..
@Grimer,
I think it's only necessary to perform what @Ice D'Bear is proposing. If putting the roller in the exact middle of even number of gates still allows the roller to overcome these gates I'd be really impressed. This will be really the solution to all the problems we're facing. I doubt it, though, unless an external field is properly overlaid to assist or if a way is found, as in @alsetalokin's device, to have the device itself create changing fields.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 18, 2008, 10:51:06 AM
to have the device itself create changing fields.
Yes indeed. I wish I had the necessary graphic skills to draw a picture, but I do not.
What I envision begins with 7 - 1/2x3/4 neo magnets, 4 of which are embedded in a 41/2 inch diameter delrin rotor in the same plane as the axle of the rotor, with alternating fields going around the rotor. ( I.E. looking at the top of the rotor going clockwise the polarity would be N - S - N - S )
Each of the remaining 3 magnets would be arranged in pivoting holders equidistantly spaced around the rotor and in the "neutral" or "centered" position would be at a right angle to the rotor axle.... The "pivot axles" would all be pointed toward the rotor axle.
They would pivot minutely ( < 5 degrees ) by a "track" milled in the circumference of the rotor, or for timing purposes another delrin disk with a track bolted to the rotor with timing slots.
In that configuration, there *should* always be 2 "pivot" magnets pulling
and pushing the rotor ( in one direction only ) and changing the "attack" angle of the third via the "track".
I sincerely hope someone with more skills than myself understands the above.
- just my 2 cents. ;)
Edit to add : and I believe this design would be self starting.
@JFK,
Isn't this ultimately what a working @alsetalokin's device is supposed to do? If not, what's the principal difference?
Also, that's what Torbay motor was supposed to do too.
The main differences are Al's motor is bi-directional... supposedly can run in both directions...
And the pivot for his stators is 90 degrees "out of phase" to what I envision... and the pivot magnets do not turn 360 degrees like Al's does and are controlled by the "track".
Also his rotor magnets are 90 degrees "out of phase".
OK, I just looked up the torobay motor...
Looking at it from the top, spin the stator pivots 90 degrees. And center the 3 magnets on the pivot.
Also, read my above post for the positioning of the rotor magnets.
The thing is, we've only seen @alsetalokin's and @xpenzif's motors work. Everything else is just in the realm of well-known ideas. I guess, no offense, what counts now are real working machines, such that others can reproduce, not ideas.
That's fine Omni... I did not expect you or anyone to drop everything and attempt my vision...
The fact is that I have not seen anything like what I described attempted yet....
Like I said, it is merely my 2 cents. ;)
Quote from: Grimer on February 18, 2008, 10:48:13 AM
Mr Entropy on Steorn Forum makes an important point. (http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60323&page=1#Item_23)
"After playing around with my son's magnetics set, it looks to me like there's a big potential hill of repulsion
you have to push through to get the rolling magnet into the starting position where it starts to attract."
I rather assumed that CLaNZeR would have noticed this but maybe not.
If the gate array field is terminated by hills at each end then there is still the possibility of motion in a large circular array. But I would like to see a long linear array first since this might well show breakdown.
Clanzer's video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4kq1oNMtws shows that the repulsion is overcome in going from one array to the next, at least on a flat surface.
If the roller exiting array 1 is made to slow down by a respectable amount, by going up a slope for example, and it is still able to enter array 2, then I don't see what there is to stop someone from constructing a circle of arrays to close the loop, or from just conveying the roller down a slope back to the first array.
The problem with trying to get asymetry in a device such as the one you descibe is that although on paper it looks like the pull of some magnets will offset the push of others you forget that the magnetic field strenght up close is inverse cubed , which means that when close up to one pole the other pushing magnets , which are pushing from much larger distances ( although on paper it doesn?t seem that large) will have a negligible effect on the sticky spot. It could be possible , but using precision magnets at precision distances measured to 100th of a millimetre. But don?t forget that magnets when all sat together move about their bh curve complicating the calculation even more. Magnets unfortunately are like sponges , their levels of saturation rise and fall. All done by the great creator to ensure that free energy is not given up without a fight.
Quote from: Craigy on February 18, 2008, 01:19:02 PM
All done by the great creator to ensure that free energy is not given up without a fight.
< Smiles and thinks about Nikola Tesla >
Quote from: Craigy on February 18, 2008, 01:19:02 PM
The problem with trying to get asymmetry in a device such as the one you describe is that although on paper it looks like the pull of some magnets will offset the push of others you forget that the magnetic field strength up close is inverse cubed , which means that when close up to one pole the other pushing magnets , which are pushing from much larger distances ( although on paper it doesn?t seem that large) will have a negligible effect on the sticky spot. It could be possible , but using precision magnets at precision distances measured to 100th of a millimetre. But don?t forget that magnets when all sat together move about their bh curve complicating the calculation even more. Magnets unfortunately are like sponges , their levels of saturation rise and fall. All done by the great creator to ensure that free energy is not given up without a fight.
Quite so. And it's in the non linearity of the BH curve that salvation lies. Unfortunately, it's too blooming complicated to work out from first principles without an intimate knowledge of the effect of the magnetic interactions on the BH curves, and probably not even then So the best way of going about things is to fiddle around and hope to get lucky. It could well have been Alsetalokin. Perhaps we will never know.
Quote from: couldbe on February 18, 2008, 01:05:39 PM
Quote from: Grimer on February 18, 2008, 10:48:13 AM
Mr Entropy on Steorn Forum makes an important point. (http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60323&page=1#Item_23)
"After playing around with my son's magnetics set, it looks to me like there's a big potential hill of repulsion
you have to push through to get the rolling magnet into the starting position where it starts to attract."
I rather assumed that CLaNZeR would have noticed this but maybe not.
If the gate array field is terminated by hills at each end then there is still the possibility of motion in a large circular array. But I would like to see a long linear array first since this might well show breakdown.
Clanzer's video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4kq1oNMtws shows that the repulsion is overcome in going from one array to the next, at least on a flat surface.
If the roller exiting array 1 is made to slow down by a respectable amount, by going up a slope for example, and it is still able to enter array 2, then I don't see what there is to stop someone from constructing a circle of arrays to close the loop, or from just conveying the roller down a slope back to the first array.
With my test through 2 gates, the roller bar would sometimes slow down (very noticeably) and look like it wasn't going to make it to the 2nd array, but then it speeds up and gets pulled through.
Quote from: whetherman on February 18, 2008, 02:17:41 PM
With my test through 2 gates, the roller bar would sometimes slow down (very noticeably) and look like it wasn't going to make it to the 2nd array, but then it speeds up and gets pulled through.
Have you tried putting the gates on an incline? If you can get the roller to go through the second gate so it is higher than its starting point, you can tell Randi to pay you the million $
I thought this guys has some interesting ideias about magnetic motors. Watch all 5 videos.
http://www.youtube.com/user/anandaadhar
Fausto.
Quote from: couldbe on February 18, 2008, 02:23:57 PM
Quote from: whetherman on February 18, 2008, 02:17:41 PM
With my test through 2 gates, the roller bar would sometimes slow down (very noticeably) and look like it wasn't going to make it to the 2nd array, but then it speeds up and gets pulled through.
Have you tried putting the gates on an incline? If you can get the roller to go through the second gate so it is higher than its starting point, you can tell Randi to pay you the million $
Is the fight against gravity / inertia not won when the behaviour I described happens in both directions? The table can't be perfectly level.
Quote from: whetherman on February 18, 2008, 06:24:45 PM
Quote from: couldbe on February 18, 2008, 02:23:57 PM
Quote from: whetherman on February 18, 2008, 02:17:41 PM
With my test through 2 gates, the roller bar would sometimes slow down (very noticeably) and look like it wasn't going to make it to the 2nd array, but then it speeds up and gets pulled through.
Have you tried putting the gates on an incline? If you can get the roller to go through the second gate so it is higher than its starting point, you can tell Randi to pay you the million $
Is the fight against gravity / inertia not won when the behaviour I described happens in both directions? The table can't be perfectly level.
a series of 2-3 or more Tri-Force gates can easily take on an incline of 35 degrees. Thats about as steep as i can get it to go, and if i had more of these magnets/steel balls im sure i could make it go up a good distance (currently 3 inches up a ramp). it shows no sign of slowing. i cant get i to roll perfectly back down through the gates, it seems to always turn and stick the sides on the way back down unless i line it up again.
got my Geo mags out , and played with that setup. I don?t know if my geos are weak but had a few observations. I constructed a row of 4 x 4 parallel triangles. My setup seemed to work as per clanzers but seemed so weak it couldn?t get it wo work on anything but a flat surface. So different to the smot in that respect.
you may have to place the gates close together using GeoMags
im using stacks of round 1/4" neodium magnets, with 1/2" steel ball bearings.
ive varried by 2-5 magnets in the stacks, at different times making the gates.
it doesnt seem to matter, as long as they are all the same length,
but they are considerably stronger than the GeoMags, as i can place the gates a few inches apart and it still goes through with considerable force.
http://adleave.com/joe%20067.jpg
The above pic is a design of a new propulsion system.
It is very simple. Some of you guys may have the access to build and test it.
The principle is space is a magnetic field. If we rotate a fan that is made by superconducting material in a vacuum chamber and keep it below critical temperature, we should have a thrust of magnetic wind.
Maybe that's how UFO's fly around. Because magnetic wind moves no mass, the new motor should be high efficiency
Don't ask me who designed it, show me if it works if you can.
BTW, where is Al? How is he?
My enthusiasm has waned. I was excited by my own experiment going through 3 tri-force gates in either direction, but then I decided I needed to test from outside the entrance repulsion zone.
I setup a very shallow ramp to have a consistent roll on each test. I tried with no gates many times to see how far the bar would roll. Then I put 1, 2, and then 3 gates in the path. The bar would consistently roll to about the same place. It would slow down then speed up at each gate but the net result was the same distance (or less, if it wasn't perfectly centered and would lose energy centering itself).
As a sanity test I made sure that I could place the bar magnet past the repulsive entrance and see the easy gate traversal shown in CLaNZeR's videos. (the bar orientations were all right).
So it seems you get out the energy it took to beat the repulsion keeping you out of the array. If somebody set up a really long straight array, it would be interesting to see the maximum number of gates traversed. (competition?)
Quote from: ask on February 18, 2008, 07:44:55 PM
http://adleave.com/joe%20067.jpg
The above pic is a design of a new propulsion system.
It is very simple. Some of you guys may have the access to build and test it.
The principle is space is a magnetic field. If we rotate a fan that is made by superconducting material in a vacuum chamber and keep it below critical temperature, we should have a thrust of magnetic wind.
Maybe that's how UFO's fly around. Because magnetic wind moves no mass, the new motor should be high efficiency
Don't ask me who designed it, show me if it works if you can.
BTW, where is Al? How is he?
What you are talking is more related to the Viktor Schauberger http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Klimator:Main_Page ?
Quote from: TheOne on February 18, 2008, 09:33:28 PM
Quote from: ask on February 18, 2008, 07:44:55 PM
http://adleave.com/joe%20067.jpg
The above pic is a design of a new propulsion system.
It is very simple. Some of you guys may have the access to build and test it.
The principle is space is a magnetic field. If we rotate a fan that is made by superconducting material in a vacuum chamber and keep it below critical temperature, we should have a thrust of magnetic wind.
Maybe that's how UFO's fly around. Because magnetic wind moves no mass, the new motor should be high efficiency
Don't ask me who designed it, show me if it works if you can.
BTW, where is Al? How is he?
What you are talking is more related to the Viktor Schauberger http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Klimator:Main_Page ?
Seems that's a cooling system. Not for propulsion.
Superconducting material is the only thing that blocks magenetic flux as I know. To make a propeller to propelling magnetic field, we have to use it and put it under critical temperature.
This priciple of propulsion remends me why in many UFO cases, near by electronic systems went wrong.
logically, the fan pushes no mass (air or water) so all the energy input will turn to dynamic energy. Our new ship could go High Speed.
If only I have the lab.....
Wonder if anyone here have the access to test/conform this hypothesis.
Two poles of any magnet, one surface plate is electron concentrated and the other surface plate is electron less. So one pole is positive charged and the other negative charged. Because all those electrons are bonded by protons in the two plates, we see attracting and repelling force between two poles but we can not see current.
Stronger magnet has higher unmovable electric charges on two poles.
Can't sleep, bla bla a bit.
It's funny. We invented physic laws and then obey them like a slave.
The 2nd TD law tells us there is No OU.
Believers have one ways to go - find new energy source (Improve effiency only helps a little).
What could it be? Mind power is my pick for now. If you find it, you will be a hero.
Quote from: ask on February 19, 2008, 04:19:44 AM
Can't sleep, bla bla a bit.
It's funny. We invented physic laws and then obey them like a slave.
The 2nd TD law tells us there is No OU.
Believers have one ways to go - find new energy source (Improve effiency only helps a little).
What could it be? Mind power is my pick for now. If you find it, you will be a hero.
Before deciding to post on scientific matters you must first learn some science and find out what the thermodynamics laws really are and what the connection with overunity of each thermodynamic law is, if any.
Al bro,
If you are still here, pls talk to us at lease one more time. You owe us! ;D
Take Care.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 19, 2008, 04:27:28 AM
Quote from: ask on February 19, 2008, 04:19:44 AM
Can't sleep, bla bla a bit.
It's funny. We invented physic laws and then obey them like a slave.
The 2nd TD law tells us there is No OU.
Believers have one ways to go - find new energy source (Improve effiency only helps a little).
What could it be? Mind power is my pick for now. If you find it, you will be a hero.
Before deciding to post on scientific matters you must first learn some science and find out what the thermodynamics laws really are and what the connection with overunity of each thermodynamic law is, if any.
Really? Just kidding.
Can't sleep too? Told you I was droped out.
Proof me wrong if any, thanks ahead.
Quote from: ask on February 19, 2008, 04:52:14 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 19, 2008, 04:27:28 AM
Quote from: ask on February 19, 2008, 04:19:44 AM
Can't sleep, bla bla a bit.
It's funny. We invented physic laws and then obey them like a slave.
The 2nd TD law tells us there is No OU.
Believers have one ways to go - find new energy source (Improve effiency only helps a little).
What could it be? Mind power is my pick for now. If you find it, you will be a hero.
Before deciding to post on scientific matters you must first learn some science and find out what the thermodynamics laws really are and what the connection with overunity of each thermodynamic law is, if any.
Really? Just kidding.
Can't sleep too? Told you I was droped out.
Proof me wrong if any, thanks ahead.
Restrain from demonstrating your incompetence.
Ok, Omni this is for you.
If we keep shooting electrons to the moon, pretty soon Earth's positive charge will attract moon's negative charge to a point to make a move.
The moon will fly to us accelerating. If we can control the force, we can make the moon a sitelitte.
As the moon stays closer, our gravity field will change shape. Fat people can move to the less gravity zoon and jump higher.
Ok, Omni this is for you.
If we keep shooting electrons to the moon, pretty soon Earth's positive charge will attract moon's negative charge to a point to make a move.
The moon will fly to us accelerating. If we can control the force, we can make the moon a sitelitte.
As the moon stays closer, our gravity field will change shape. Fat people can move to the less gravity zoon and jump higher.
http://www.news.com/5208-11397_3-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=10795&messageID=80404&start=-1
Watched Al's first vid one more time.
Let me make a wild gause.
Al's motor is real thing. He is busy for the new design or he is bought out.
The fake post by fake AL wants us to quit. OU maybe possible.
@Grimer,
I see you?re encouraging @Axle for his effort shown here: http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x165/Axle001/DCP15851.jpg , which is in essence what also @ClaNZeR is trying to do with his tri-force setup, because he has achieved partial rotation. Unfortunately, partial rotation isn?t at all to be celebrated. I can show you almost full 360o rotation, self-starting, done in various ways but this isn?t to be considered a success at all. There?s this sticky spot at the end of this 360o turn which has to be overcome through proper overlaying of an external field. Paul Sprain does it with a brute force, as I?ve pointed out many times, creating that needed additional field by applying energy externally. This may be very practical but for the purposes of wide acceptance of these devices in the academia and at large it is crucial to find a way to superimpose properly an existing conservative field for the creation of which no external energy is spent or to have the device change the fields from within, due to its action. A device utilizing properly overlaid fields is Johannes Taisnierius? device (contemporary SMOT, that is) which is the only scientifically confirmed construction so far to produce, although discontinuously, energy out of no source. All the devices that have attracted real attention such as these of @xpenzif, Lego motor, @alsetalokin, Torbay, this one http://youtube.com/watch?v=98u1FAx9JkM etc. seem to function under these principles.
Of course, you can immediately show me this device: http://youtube.com/watch?v=dvlDEqf2pCc which is one of the most interesting I?ve seen so far. One may argue, however, that here as well there are two properly overlaid fields?one is the resultant set of potential troughs and hills, formed by the cooperative action of the stator magnets and the other formed by the magnets of the rotor.
These are just about the only experiments so far that deserve attention and all of them need at least two mutually assisting fields of proper form and properly overlaid (or changing due to the action of the device itself).
Quote from: Omnibus on February 19, 2008, 10:08:14 AM
There?s this sticky spot
Isn't there always?
Quote
at the end of this 360o turn which has to be overcome through proper overlaying of an external field.
In other words, none of these gadgets is OU.
Quote from: couldbe on February 19, 2008, 10:20:05 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 19, 2008, 10:08:14 AM
There?s this sticky spot
Isn't there always?
Quote
at the end of this 360o turn which has to be overcome through proper overlaying of an external field.
In other words, none of these gadgets is OU.
All of these gadgets are OU, so far only the Johannes Taisnierius' being confirmed scientifically. As for the sticky spot or spots which always exists or exist, these can only be overcome by properly superimposing additional conservative fields or by constructively allow for changing the field from within the device. Taisnierius' device is the simplest model which allows one to understand how this proper ovelaying occurs and how it assists in overcoming the sticky spot.
here is a very simple demonstration of OU using these types of devices.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=yMoIExJEaBU
you can place a projectile launching mechainsm over the neodyium sphere magnet. and have a release lever, to let go of the projectile at an area just before the track ends.
place the projectile cart just outside the influence field at the edge of the repelling zone.
strike it with an impact pendulum of known force. very simple - Energy In
the cart flies down the track, hits the switch, your projectile goes flying through the air.
you angle the launcher at a set angle. and simple ballistics equations gives you your energy out.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 19, 2008, 10:08:14 AM
@Grimer,
I see you?re encouraging @Axle for his effort shown here: http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x165/Axle001/DCP15851.jpg , which is in essence what also @ClaNZeR is trying to do with his tri-force setup, because he has achieved partial rotation. Unfortunately, partial rotation isn?t at all to be celebrated. I can show you almost full 360o rotation, self-starting, done in various ways but this isn?t to be considered a success at all. There?s this sticky spot at the end of this 360o turn which has to be overcome through proper overlaying of an external field. Paul Sprain does it with a brute force, as I?ve pointed out many times, creating that needed additional field by applying energy externally. This may be very practical but for the purposes of wide acceptance of these devices in the academia and at large it is crucial to find a way to superimpose properly an existing conservative field for the creation of which no external energy is spent or to have the device change the fields from within, due to its action. A device utilizing properly overlaid fields is Johannes Taisnierius? device (contemporary SMOT, that is) which is the only scientifically confirmed construction so far to produce, although discontinuously, energy out of no source. All the devices that have attracted real attention such as these of @xpenzif, Lego motor, @alsetalokin, Torbay, this one http://youtube.com/watch?v=98u1FAx9JkM etc. seem to function under these principles.
Of course, you can immediately show me this device: http://youtube.com/watch?v=dvlDEqf2pCc which is one of the most interesting I?ve seen so far. One may argue, however, that here as well there are two properly overlaid fields?one is the resultant set of potential troughs and hills, formed by the cooperative action of the stator magnets and the other formed by the magnets of the rotor.
These are just about the only experiments so far that deserve attention and all of them need at least two mutually assisting fields of proper form and properly overlaid (or changing due to the action of the device itself).
@Omnibus,
There are two subtle differences between the TriGate and WhipMag and the other devices you compare them to. The Torbay and Sprain devices use
only one magnetic relationship (repulsion
or attraction) and make use of only one magnetic pole. The WhipMag and Trigate use both repulsion
and attraction simultaneously, using both poles to achieve positive motion.
And the SMOT is not even in the same class.
@0c,
I disagree, Johannes Taisnierius' device (contemporary SMOT, that is) demonstrates the underlying principle of all these devices in the most simple and comprehensive way. Irrespective of whether or not the device is just based on just repulsion, just attraction or a combination of the two, ultimately the mechanism of producing energy out of no source is that of Tainierus' device.
Now, because Taisnierius' device has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be an OU device, the skillful application of its principle is a guarantee that construction of a working device similar to the ones mentioned above is inevitable.
Quote from: ask on February 19, 2008, 05:10:01 AM
Ok, Omni this is for you.
If we keep shooting electrons to the moon, pretty soon Earth's positive charge will attract moon's negative charge to a point to make a move.
The moon will fly to us accelerating. If we can control the force, we can make the moon a sitelitte.
As the moon stays closer, our gravity field will change shape. Fat people can move to the less gravity zoon and jump higher.
Wow!!!!! U got to be kidding us Right?
Keep chuckling Onmi, I know I am ;D
Bill
@All,
I forgot who suggested that we place the rotor magnets at an incline. I did that and the main result was that the device runs much more quietly, the AGW is still easily achieved but no tangible acceleration observed. A definite change in behavior, though. My rig broke up in a weird way so I'm repairing it now and when it's done I'll try some more positions of the magnets. Will keep you posted if anything interesting happens.
Omni,
Harvey posted this a Fizzx. It's a video that shows how a GW stator can be pivoted, thus placing it in AGW.
... Simple AGW?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_o08Il8mqk
Comment?
I wonder what would happen if all three GW stators were pivoted?
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@Yadaraf,
No, that's not mine. I haven't posted on youtube yet. Th only place I'm discussing this experiment so far is here in this forum. I think the video you mention was posted by @!Harvey, if I'm not mistaken, and I don't quite understand what he's up to with it.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 19, 2008, 03:22:30 PM
@Yadaraf,
No, that's not mine. I haven't posted on youtube yet. Th only place I'm discussing this experiment so far is here in this forum. I think the video you mention was posted by @!Harvey, if I'm not mistaken, and I don't quite understand what he's up to with it.
Omni,Sorry if I confused you. I didn't mean to suggest the video was yours.
I was curious what you thought of the video, and in particular pivoting the stator to accomplish AGW (see 01:20 min mark in vid).
Q: Compared to "finger-flipping" the stator, doesn't it make more sense to use a pivoting device to achieve AGW rotation? Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
@ Yada
Unless you have a method of achieving AGW with all three stators i would recommend removing the other 2, as they are not to your advantage and cause extra drag on the rotor.
@sm0ky2,
I agree but it seems that leaving one extra stator almost diagonally from the driving one helps locking it into AGW.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 19, 2008, 04:13:12 PM
@ Yada
Unless you have a method of achieving AGW with all three stators i would recommend removing the other 2, as they are not to your advantage and cause extra drag on the rotor.
sm0ky2,What intrigues me about using all three stators is the appearance of speed regulation. For example, when Al's device was spinning with 3-stators its speed appeared regulated to 425 RPM by "something." Note that 425 RPM is 7 Hz, or near the first Schumann mode of 7.8 Hz.
Also, recall that the 425 RPM plateau was achieved immediately
after AGW -- Al said that the device accelerated slightly and then settled down to 1700 RPM [stator].
I think there is something to be gained by studying the first speed plateau.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Al
Its time too do what CLaNZeR did, and go forward, and forget the whipmag
i have try both and the Tri-force is simple the best, it works ;D ;D ;D ;D
@ezzob,
What do you mean "it works"? Do you have it making full turns on its own? Anything short of that is a zero success.
@ezzob,
How do you mean "it works"? Do you have it making full turns on its own? Anything short of that is a zero success.
@Omnibus
No but i have done same as CLaNZeR 3:e youtube, and i believe thats the solution,
thats what they have try too told us for 12508 years, the pyramid.
Up and down
Regards
Quote from: ezzob on February 19, 2008, 05:23:24 PM
@Omnibus
No but i have done same as CLaNZeR 3:e youtube, and i believe thats the solution,
thats what they have try too told us for 12508 years, the pyramid.
Up and down
Regards
Not at all. That's trivial. Like I said several times already, there are various ways to make a rotor turn almost 360o, self-starting, and that's well known. The problem is to have it make it full turns by itself. Until that's achieved no claim that "it works" is viable at all.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 19, 2008, 04:20:27 PM
@sm0ky2,
I agree but it seems that leaving one extra stator almost diagonally from the driving one helps locking it into AGW.
@ Omni - i see what you are saying.
perhaps this adds a sort of "balancing" effect?
@ All
i have a hard time accepting this notion i keep seeing tossed around.
|--------- That friction on the bearings, or 'drag' on the rotor effects the rotational force and/or timing of the rotor/stator working together.
i can see how, in a mechanical device, things like this may effect synchronization. however we are dealing with a purely magnetic interaction.
Its all about the flux compression, creating the driving force. Not about a lagged roller....
you can see the force in the outward direction when the 2 rollers come together under a gauss viewer
Wonder if anyone tried to make a vedio (even fake) just like Al's first vedio?
I mean can you put a motor under the table to make a vedio like Al's?
Maybe after NASA build up space elevator, we can borrow it to shoot some electrons to the moon.
Once the moon begins accelerating to Earth, acceleration rate will build up aggressively, it is an one way street.
Look into the star sky, I wonder if somewhere someone is shooting electrons at the moon?
It's only a matter of time......till dogs dance on the moon.
@ask,
Wouldn't it be better to move your poetic inclinations elsewhere?
Thanks this forum and everyone here, been a while forgot thinking about science, it was my love.
A quick question. Suppose we find a way to OU, let's say we build a motor that input 100w will put out 200w. So we use that 200w to put in another double sized motor to get 400w out. And so on...
If this works, seems against physic law too much. People are crazy, God won't allow it happen.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 19, 2008, 10:14:23 PM
@ask,
Wouldn't it be better to move your poetic inclinations elsewhere?
@omni
Have any thoughts about my hypothesis? How is that motor sounds to you? Do you know the nature of magnetic force? Can you proof anything I suggested wrong?
If you really like poetry, this is for you.
Night night night, night girl
Will you show me your game
Star sky chess board
First move your turn
Night night night, night beauty
Dare you drink all my wine
Flower carpet moon pillow
Half drink till dawn
Last night I met a rainbow girl
She lost a sandal in my dream
Ask, here's some science for you, How many electrons per day are currently being imparted upon the moon, from the sun?
How many electrons would mankind have to shoot to the moon to effect the moon's position respective to the earth, say 1/16th of an inch?
I put a little video together to show some progress on this Tri-gate idea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tH0qr7rfAw
Mark
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 19, 2008, 11:27:42 PM
Ask, here's some science for you, How many electrons per day are currently being imparted upon the moon, from the sun?
How many electrons would mankind have to shoot to the moon to effect the moon's position respective to the earth, say 1/16th of an inch?
The first answer you can google and get it.
The second, I googled it for you, http://www.advancedphysics.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-2616.html
It was just an wild idea to show off. not serious.
But I designed that motor almost 20 years, really need some feedback from you guys.
Quote from: Dusty on February 20, 2008, 12:13:51 AM
I put a little video together to show some progress on this Tri-gate idea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tH0qr7rfAw
Mark
Can't you make the radius smaller until your ordered magnets come in ?
Hi,
please read this about magnet motors:
"...However, he seems to know what is in my mind without asking him, so he begun telling me about magnets. they are like batteries whose energy is very hard to extract, once loaded, that is why the magnets hold their field for tens of years, and this fact lead many people to the FALSE IDEA that a motor made with permanent magnets would run for many years withoud adding energy in the system. But if one tricks the energy out of the magnets, making a magnet motor with them, they will demagnetise quite quickly, maybe in a few days, so this is not a real overunity system. It is like when you feed a motor from a normal battery that has current for a few days. So he said, we should stop trying that. "
The rest of the story is here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4113.0.html
Greetings,
Spacetrax
Thats a common explanation i hear form people who have very little understanding of magnetic energy.
using a magnet to push another one away from itself does not "take energy" out of the magnet.
in fact i can place one magnet on top of the other so that if floats, and exerts a constant pushing force of 9.8m/s on the floating magnet.
these 2 magnets will still live a long and happy life. their energy is not being "depleted" by the work done.
The man who said that gets his 'knowledge' from a half-god-voice he hears in his head. this should have been your first clue to take his words with a grain of salt..
Quote from: Dusty on February 20, 2008, 12:13:51 AM
I put a little video together to show some progress on this Tri-gate idea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tH0qr7rfAw
Mark
Hate to say it but this is the most you'll be able to achieve. This much of rotation can be achieved in numerous other ways and amounts to no success at all.As I explained it several times already, when you get the rest of the magnets to make a full circle of them the rotor will stall in the potential trough between two peaks. If some potential peak happens to be greater than the rest, starting from there will produce partial rotation which will be at most such that'll bring the rotor back to that highest peak. Full turns cannot be achieved without a proper superposition of another independent assisting field.
Quote from: spacetrax on February 20, 2008, 01:45:46 AM
Hi,
please read this about magnet motors:
"...However, he seems to know what is in my mind without asking him, so he begun telling me about magnets. they are like batteries whose energy is very hard to extract, once loaded, that is why the magnets hold their field for tens of years, and this fact lead many people to the FALSE IDEA that a motor made with permanent magnets would run for many years withoud adding energy in the system. But if one tricks the energy out of the magnets, making a magnet motor with them, they will demagnetise quite quickly, maybe in a few days, so this is not a real overunity system. It is like when you feed a motor from a normal battery that has current for a few days. So he said, we should stop trying that. "
The rest of the story is here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4113.0.html
Greetings,
Spacetrax
This should be ignored out of hand. Enough with these incompetent "explanations".
To convince yourself that the above is nonsense try to understand the principle which Johannes Taisnierius' device (contemporary SMOT, that is) is based on, especially when the ball travels along a closed A-B-C-A loop where the magnetic depletion "argument" is out of the question.
I agree with Omnibus. This statement is simply not true.
There is no extraction of energy from the magnets when put to work.
The only degradation of NdFeb magnets occurs when abused, e.g by heat, impact, moist (if surface is broken), 10000 of years in storage.
The magnetism degrades by approx 0.5% each 10-20 years, perhaps lesser than that.
Put in repel will not damage them either. It takes a dynamic field (not from permanent magnet) approx 100 times stronger than a NdFeb can produce.
Quote from: spacetrax on February 20, 2008, 01:45:46 AM
"...However, he seems to know what is in my mind without asking him, so he begun telling me about magnets. they are like batteries whose energy is very hard to extract, once loaded, that is why the magnets hold their field for tens of years, and this fact lead many people to the FALSE IDEA that a motor made with permanent magnets would run for many years withoud adding energy in the system. But if one tricks the energy out of the magnets, making a magnet motor with them, they will demagnetise quite quickly, maybe in a few days, so this is not a real overunity system.
/Spacetrax
Hi,
It would be absolutely great to have a working magnet motor. I know that some motors turn around for a while, but what if you put them to perform work? I guess, they will stop!
If you can show me a magnet motor that can perform work for a very long time, I will buy it immediately.
Best,
Spacetrax
Quote from: Honk on February 20, 2008, 07:38:52 AM
I agree with Omnibus. This statement is simply not true.
There is no extraction of energy from the magnets when put to work.
The only degradation of NdFeb magnets occurs when abused, e.g by heat, impact, moist (if surface is broken), 10000 of years in storage.
The magnetism degrades by approx 0.5% each 10-20 years, perhaps lesser than that.
Put in repel will not damage them either. It takes a dynamic field (not from permanent magnet) approx 100 times stronger than a NdFeb can produce.
Quote from: spacetrax on February 20, 2008, 01:45:46 AM
"...However, he seems to know what is in my mind without asking him, so he begun telling me about magnets. they are like batteries whose energy is very hard to extract, once loaded, that is why the magnets hold their field for tens of years, and this fact lead many people to the FALSE IDEA that a motor made with permanent magnets would run for many years withoud adding energy in the system. But if one tricks the energy out of the magnets, making a magnet motor with them, they will demagnetise quite quickly, maybe in a few days, so this is not a real overunity system.
/Spacetrax
Hi,
please show me a magnet motor that can perform work on a generator system, even 1 Watt for eternity, and I will buy it immediately.
I am a realistic man, but I don?t know why nobody has a PMM working to date, that?s why I accept also alternative explanations. I tried myself to make magnet motors, but I failed every time. So, why should I continuously believe that PMMs are possible to build?
Cheers,
Spacetrax
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 20, 2008, 07:05:07 AM
Thats a common explanation i hear form people who have very little understanding of magnetic energy.
using a magnet to push another one away from itself does not "take energy" out of the magnet.
in fact i can place one magnet on top of the other so that if floats, and exerts a constant pushing force of 9.8m/s on the floating magnet.
these 2 magnets will still live a long and happy life. their energy is not being "depleted" by the work done.
The man who said that gets his 'knowledge' from a half-god-voice he hears in his head. this should have been your first clue to take his words with a grain of salt..
Quote from: spacetrax on February 20, 2008, 08:09:35 AM
Hi,
It would be absolutely great to have a working magnet motor. I know that some motors turn around for a while, but what if you put them to perform work? I guess, they will stop!
If you can show me a magnet motor that can perform work for a very long time, I will buy it immediately.
Best,
Spacetrax
Quote from: Honk on February 20, 2008, 07:38:52 AM
I agree with Omnibus. This statement is simply not true.
There is no extraction of energy from the magnets when put to work.
The only degradation of NdFeb magnets occurs when abused, e.g by heat, impact, moist (if surface is broken), 10000 of years in storage.
The magnetism degrades by approx 0.5% each 10-20 years, perhaps lesser than that.
Put in repel will not damage them either. It takes a dynamic field (not from permanent magnet) approx 100 times stronger than a NdFeb can produce.
Quote from: spacetrax on February 20, 2008, 01:45:46 AM
"...However, he seems to know what is in my mind without asking him, so he begun telling me about magnets. they are like batteries whose energy is very hard to extract, once loaded, that is why the magnets hold their field for tens of years, and this fact lead many people to the FALSE IDEA that a motor made with permanent magnets would run for many years withoud adding energy in the system. But if one tricks the energy out of the magnets, making a magnet motor with them, they will demagnetise quite quickly, maybe in a few days, so this is not a real overunity system.
/Spacetrax
Just the contrary, show me a magnetic motor working for a very short time, say making 10 full turns in a row on its own while self starting and then try to argue with me it isn't OU.
Quote from: Dusty on February 20, 2008, 12:13:51 AM
I put a little video together to show some progress on this Tri-gate idea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tH0qr7rfAw
Mark
Nice work Dusty. it looks very promising! Please keep us informed!
Quote from: geodan on February 20, 2008, 09:25:12 AM
Quote from: Dusty on February 20, 2008, 12:13:51 AM
I put a little video together to show some progress on this Tri-gate idea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tH0qr7rfAw
Mark
Nice work Dusty. it looks very promising! Please keep us informed!
No, it doesn't look promising at all. This route of of research has already been understood, it's fruitless and isn't to be encouraged.
Quote from: spacetrax on February 20, 2008, 08:15:32 AM
...
So, why should I continuously believe that PMMs are possible to build?
Because it?s highly profitable. That?s why.
Come up with a motor design, make it ?working? and make an easy deal with a magnet manufacturer. Bingo!
Now, although simple, few elements of success need to be taken care:
1. The design shall include several magnets, for optimized profit. Too few will not be good for business and too many will scare potential ?replicators?.
2. The type of magnets used shall be carefully chosen, as to allow making a clear deal with the factory. You won?t want to use common magnets. Noo, that would be a big mistake. But rare ones. Either old (N38) or of particular shape and magnetization. Do not worry; there are still plenty of choices. How about the next magnet motor built around ellipsoid magnets? Or pyramids? (It?s in vogue right now). Or even simply cubes but diagonally magnetized?
3. Make the working model as credible as possible and pack it in stories, legends and good marketing. Add conspiracy theory elements! (This is a must). Make the whole story take off.
At 3$/magnet *14 pcs*2k replicators*5% share that?s a mere 4.2k$.
Not too much as a final result, although acceptable for the amount of ?work? done. But the value of total sales (only magnets) is close to 80k. That?s a good ?extra? sale for a company, isn?t it? And marketing is for free, for the same company!
I wouldn?t be surprise if I?d find out that the above-like scenarios are supported (if not initiated) by some interested magnet-manufacturing companies.
If you suspiciously look at the 2k figure, don?t even bother to say that it?s un-realistic assumption. It is not. In fact, considering the world-wide impact through many ?marketing? channels (many dedicated sites, you tube and other movie sites, forums, e-mails, even e-bay!) the figure may be well underestimated. Out of stock occurrences prove it.
That?s why you should continuously believe that PMMs are possible to build!
And it would be nice to make as many you can to believe the same! After all, it was undoubtedly proven! ;)
Cheers,
Tinu
Hi Dusty.
Plaese try and release the rotor magnet in the middle of the arc.
If it self-starts in this position, then one whole circle of magnets might work as well and you have a self runner.
Quote from: Dusty on February 20, 2008, 12:13:51 AM
I put a little video together to show some progress on this Tri-gate idea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tH0qr7rfAw
Mark
Quote from: Omnibus on February 20, 2008, 09:29:40 AM
Quote from: geodan on February 20, 2008, 09:25:12 AM
Quote from: Dusty on February 20, 2008, 12:13:51 AM
I put a little video together to show some progress on this Tri-gate idea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tH0qr7rfAw
Mark
Nice work Dusty. it looks very promising! Please keep us informed!
No, it doesn't look promising at all. This route of of research has already been understood, it's fruitless and isn't to be encouraged.
Yes Omni... It is indeed fruitless,,,, for you.
Did it ever occur to you that you just *might* not have tried all the possible orientations/variables with this design ?
Maybe someone else with a fresh view just *might* hit on an arrangement that might work.
I DO know that you have not tried my idea regarding a variation of this threads topic, and you have not a clue as to what I mean judging from your response.
Please refrain from being sooo condecending.
Quote from: Honk on February 20, 2008, 09:50:19 AM
Hi Dusty.
Plaese try and release the rotor magnet in the middle of the arc.
If it self-starts in this position, then one whole circle of magnets might work as well and you have a self runner.
Quote from: Dusty on February 20, 2008, 12:13:51 AM
I put a little video together to show some progress on this Tri-gate idea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tH0qr7rfAw
Mark
He will have a self-runner only if he has completed the whole circle with stations and does what you suggest. Partial build creates preferential maximums and while partial run will be achieved even when self-starting, it won't complete the full turn, let alone initiate a new one. Don't hold you breath, though. Full turns won't occur with this design and continuing along this route is only a waste of time, well understood already.
Quote from: JFK on February 20, 2008, 10:14:40 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 20, 2008, 09:29:40 AM
Quote from: geodan on February 20, 2008, 09:25:12 AM
Quote from: Dusty on February 20, 2008, 12:13:51 AM
I put a little video together to show some progress on this Tri-gate idea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tH0qr7rfAw
Mark
Nice work Dusty. it looks very promising! Please keep us informed!
No, it doesn't look promising at all. This route of of research has already been understood, it's fruitless and isn't to be encouraged.
Yes Omni... It is indeed fruitless,,,, for you.
Did it ever occur to you that you just *might* not have tried all the possible orientations/variables with this design ?
Maybe someone else with a fresh view just *might* hit on an arrangement that might work.
I DO know that you have not tried my idea regarding a variation of this threads topic, and you have not a clue as to what I mean judging from your response.
Please refrain from being sooo condecending.
Not at all. It's fruitless for him. That's a proven waste of time. Mind yo, I'll be the happiest person on Earth if he proves me wrong. Don't hold your breath, though.
As for what you mean, regarding your idea, I admit, I have no clue as to what you mean.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 20, 2008, 10:25:08 AMThat's a proven waste of time.
As for what you mean, regarding your idea, I admit, I have no clue as to what you mean.
Yup.... And so was sailing around the world prior to 1492.
You don't care either, do you ? It's because you
know better. ;)
Quote from: JFK on February 20, 2008, 10:53:00 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 20, 2008, 10:25:08 AMThat's a proven waste of time.
As for what you mean, regarding your idea, I admit, I have no clue as to what you mean.
Yup.... And so was sailing around the world prior to 1492.
You don't care either, do you ? It's because you know better. ;)
The only way to deal with this is to prove me wrong through an experiment. Like I said I'm not holding my breath, though. And, by the way, that's not comparable to sailing around the world prior to 1492. It's comparable to trying to lift yourself up by pulling on your own socks. No one, save Baron Munchhausen, has ever been able to do that, right?
Quote from: Omnibus on February 20, 2008, 10:59:27 AM
Quote from: JFK on February 20, 2008, 10:53:00 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 20, 2008, 10:25:08 AMThat's a proven waste of time.
As for what you mean, regarding your idea, I admit, I have no clue as to what you mean.
Yup.... And so was sailing around the world prior to 1492.
You don't care either, do you ? It's because you know better. ;)
The only way to deal with this is to prove me wrong through an experiment. Like I said I'm not holding my breath, though. And, by the way, that's not comparable to sailing around the world prior to 1492. It's comparable to trying to lift yourself up by pulling on your own socks. No one, save Baron Munchhausen, has ever been able to do that, right?
Actually Mr. Bill Gates did it rather nicely with his QDOS bootstrap loader.
Now, where exactly are your pics/videos of your replication ?
Omnibus
Please get the old stories correct. It is called, lifting yourself up by your bootlaces. Now lets look at that and you will find you can do this. But your butt will soon be on the ground. LOL
Quote from: JFK on February 20, 2008, 11:09:03 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 20, 2008, 10:59:27 AM
Quote from: JFK on February 20, 2008, 10:53:00 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 20, 2008, 10:25:08 AMThat's a proven waste of time.
As for what you mean, regarding your idea, I admit, I have no clue as to what you mean.
Yup.... And so was sailing around the world prior to 1492.
You don't care either, do you ? It's because you know better. ;)
The only way to deal with this is to prove me wrong through an experiment. Like I said I'm not holding my breath, though. And, by the way, that's not comparable to sailing around the world prior to 1492. It's comparable to trying to lift yourself up by pulling on your own socks. No one, save Baron Munchhausen, has ever been able to do that, right?
Actually Mr. Bill Gates did it rather nicely with his QDOS bootstrap loader.
Now, where exactly are your pics/videos of your replication ?
Now, I see why you believe that funny experiment. Most people, though, know for sure pigs cannot fly neither can you lift yourself by your bootlaces as @AB Hammer correctly corrected me.
Where exactly are your pics/videos of your replication ?
Did you replicate it ?
Quote from: spacetrax on February 20, 2008, 08:09:35 AM
Hi,
It would be absolutely great to have a working magnet motor. I know that some motors turn around for a while, but what if you put them to perform work? I guess, they will stop!
If you can show me a magnet motor that can perform work for a very long time, I will buy it immediately.
Best,
Spacetrax
Quote from: Honk on February 20, 2008, 07:38:52 AM
I agree with Omnibus. This statement is simply not true.
There is no extraction of energy from the magnets when put to work.
The only degradation of NdFeb magnets occurs when abused, e.g by heat, impact, moist (if surface is broken), 10000 of years in storage.
The magnetism degrades by approx 0.5% each 10-20 years, perhaps lesser than that.
Put in repel will not damage them either. It takes a dynamic field (not from permanent magnet) approx 100 times stronger than a NdFeb can produce.
Quote from: spacetrax on February 20, 2008, 01:45:46 AM
"...However, he seems to know what is in my mind without asking him, so he begun telling me about magnets. they are like batteries whose energy is very hard to extract, once loaded, that is why the magnets hold their field for tens of years, and this fact lead many people to the FALSE IDEA that a motor made with permanent magnets would run for many years withoud adding energy in the system. But if one tricks the energy out of the magnets, making a magnet motor with them, they will demagnetise quite quickly, maybe in a few days, so this is not a real overunity system.
/Spacetrax
I would love to see these motors you mention that turn for a while all on their own.. havent seen one yet ?
Well Dean, I first saw pics of this one in the early 70's... It uses gravity, magnitism, springs, and pendulums... produces no usable output though, unless you count the overcoming of air friction. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us7YB7eiOeQ
Quote from: JFK on February 20, 2008, 11:51:53 AM
Well Dean, I first saw pics of this one in the early 70's... It uses gravity, magnitism, springs, and pendulums... produces no usable output though, unless you count the overcoming of air friction. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us7YB7eiOeQ
You obviously haven't followed this story. I visited Finsrud, the creator of that device, personally in 2006 and saw it in action. See the videos I've taken of it during that visit:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=553061720631716456&hl=en
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3078131163857744253&hl=en
Unfortunately, there are still outstanding questions to be answered to conclude with certainty this is a perpetuum mobile. Unfortunately, Finsrud is too burned out and isn't forthcoming to carry out some simple additional non-destructive experiment.
had a nice play today with my geo mags. am of the opinion that the repulsion at the start of the track overcomes any posible gains.. looks very much to me like sum of the transaction will be zero..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIdnXa-bdlI
Quote from: Omnibus on February 20, 2008, 12:31:55 PM
Quote from: JFK on February 20, 2008, 11:51:53 AM
Well Dean, I first saw pics of this one in the early 70's... It uses gravity, magnitism, springs, and pendulums... produces no usable output though, unless you count the overcoming of air friction. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us7YB7eiOeQ
You obviously haven't followed this story. I visited Finsrud, the creator of that device, personally in 2006 and saw it in action. See the videos I've taken of it during that visit:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=553061720631716456&hl=en
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3078131163857744253&hl=en
Unfortunately, there are still outstanding questions to be answered to conclude with certainty this is a perpetuum mobile. Unfortunately, Finsrud is too burned out and isn't forthcoming to carry out some simple additional non-destructive experiment.
My reply was to Dean's question...
QuoteI would love to see these motors you mention that turn for a while all on their own.. havent seen one yet ?
So where are your pics/videos of your replication ?
Did you replicate it ?
< How does it feel Omni ? >
Quote from: JFK on February 20, 2008, 12:48:35 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 20, 2008, 12:31:55 PM
Quote from: JFK on February 20, 2008, 11:51:53 AM
Well Dean, I first saw pics of this one in the early 70's... It uses gravity, magnitism, springs, and pendulums... produces no usable output though, unless you count the overcoming of air friction. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us7YB7eiOeQ
You obviously haven't followed this story. I visited Finsrud, the creator of that device, personally in 2006 and saw it in action. See the videos I've taken of it during that visit:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=553061720631716456&hl=en
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3078131163857744253&hl=en
Unfortunately, there are still outstanding questions to be answered to conclude with certainty this is a perpetuum mobile. Unfortunately, Finsrud is too burned out and isn't forthcoming to carry out some simple additional non-destructive experiment.
My reply was to Dean's question...
QuoteI would love to see these motors you mention that turn for a while all on their own.. havent seen one yet ?
So where are your pics/videos of your replication ?
Did you replicate it ?
< How does it feel Omni ? >
So what that your reply was to Dean's question? Your reply doesn't prove that you have evidence for a working magnetic motor. So far there hasn't been any--just claims for such which no one else could ever reproduce. To this day the only convincing device proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that CoE can be violated is the Johannes Taisnierius one (contemporary SMOT, that is) producing energy out of no source discontinuously. No one to this day has been able to construct a demonstrable device which produces energy out of no source continuously. That's unfortunate but that's the reality. Everything else is hearsay.
Again the question I was replying to :
QuoteI would love to see these motors you mention that turn for a while all on their own.. havent seen one yet ?
I think a month and a half ( and more ) qualifies as "a while".
You lied about your replication efforts, didn't you ?
Quote from: JFK on February 20, 2008, 01:08:48 PM
Again the question I was replying to :
QuoteI would love to see these motors you mention that turn for a while all on their own.. havent seen one yet ?
I think a month and a half ( and more ) qualifies as "a while".
You lied about your replication efforts, didn't you ?
What about a month and a half? There's not a single claim for a magnetic motor that can be demonstrated to make even 10 turns on its own, self-starting, let alone a month and a half. That's ridiculous. You don't know what you're talking about.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 20, 2008, 01:19:32 PM
Quote from: JFK on February 20, 2008, 01:08:48 PM
Again the question I was replying to :
QuoteI would love to see these motors you mention that turn for a while all on their own.. havent seen one yet ?
I think a month and a half ( and more ) qualifies as "a while".
You lied about your replication efforts, didn't you ?
What about a month and a half? There's not a single claim for a magnetic motor that can be demonstrated to make even 10 turns on its own, self-starting, let alone a month and a half. That's ridiculous. You don't know what you're talking about.
What is circled in blue ?
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg253.imageshack.us%2Fimg253%2F2546%2Fmagnetspc7.jpg&hash=605b24f060bfe3c39703221f912ece1376fb98b7)
< rolls eyes >
looks to me like once Dean completes the circle all he needs to do is give it a push to start it , so what if it wont self start.
JFK,
Stay positive.
Even if you are unsuccessful replicating the TriGate or WhipMag, you will undoubtedly have fun along the way. I don't have to remind you that making the journey is often more fun than reaching the destination.
Who knows, like Al you might even serendipitously stumble into some new strange phenomenon like AGW rotation (high-speed co-rotation). Don't give up. Don't give in. Discovery is what it's all about. Have fun with it. ;D
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Craigy on February 20, 2008, 12:40:59 PM
had a nice play today with my geo mags. am of the opinion that the repulsion at the start of the track overcomes any posible gains.. looks very much to me like sum of the transaction will be zero..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIdnXa-bdlI
nice video, why not have the roller go up a ramp and to the side then back down to the starting point.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 20, 2008, 12:56:10 PM
So far there hasn't been any--just claims for such which no one else could ever reproduce. To this day the only convincing device proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that CoE can be violated is the Johannes Taisnierius one (contemporary SMOT, that is) producing energy out of no source discontinuously. No one to this day has been able to construct a demonstrable device which produces energy out of no source continuously.
@ Omni,
have you performed the simple ballistics test using the magnetic-launcher that i mentioned earlier??
This is Clearly overunity, in MANY configurations.
To "loop" something like this would add all sorts of mechanisms to transfer the energy, such that the ability to make accurate measurements would cease.
But in its simplest form::
- a magnet track+ a launcher-car with the sphere magnet on the bottom+ and a lever to release the projectile in motion.
you need to test:
1) pendulum-impact-hammer
2) Protractor
3) ruler
4) calculator
if you need help obtaining any of these things let me know. im willing to assist you in any way i can
so that you may understand what "overunity" means.
well i was hoping to make a ferris wheel type setup, with a track of 3 or 4 on an arc at the bottom, 2 or 3 magnets on the wheel , i will make one , lol, but i am not holding my breath...
The ferris wheel , would also allow the rotation of the magnets , just like the seats on the ferris wheel , but i doubt that it will have much to do with making it better..still its fun making these toys
Quote from: Craigy on February 20, 2008, 04:20:06 PM
well i was hoping to make a ferris wheel type setup, with a track of 3 or 4 on an arc at the bottom, 2 or 3 magnets on the wheel , i will make one , lol, but i am not holding my breath...
The ferris wheel , would also allow the rotation of the magnets , just like the seats on the ferris wheel , but i doubt that it will have much to do with making it better..still its fun making these toys
Craigy,Axle and OC are trying a ferris wheel, but their orientation is different from the one in your video.
... http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60323&page=2#Item_9
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
i posted one solution for the Tri-Force
HERE
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4142.0.html (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4142.0.html)
Hi,
yes, maybe you are right and most PMM stories are invented by magnet manufactureres who want to sell their production ;D
Cheers,
Spacetrax
Quote from: tinu on February 20, 2008, 09:42:53 AM
Quote from: spacetrax on February 20, 2008, 08:15:32 AM
...
So, why should I continuously believe that PMMs are possible to build?
Because it?s highly profitable. That?s why.
Come up with a motor design, make it ?working? and make an easy deal with a magnet manufacturer. Bingo!
Now, although simple, few elements of success need to be taken care:
1. The design shall include several magnets, for optimized profit. Too few will not be good for business and too many will scare potential ?replicators?.
2. The type of magnets used shall be carefully chosen, as to allow making a clear deal with the factory. You won?t want to use common magnets. Noo, that would be a big mistake. But rare ones. Either old (N38) or of particular shape and magnetization. Do not worry; there are still plenty of choices. How about the next magnet motor built around ellipsoid magnets? Or pyramids? (It?s in vogue right now). Or even simply cubes but diagonally magnetized?
3. Make the working model as credible as possible and pack it in stories, legends and good marketing. Add conspiracy theory elements! (This is a must). Make the whole story take off.
At 3$/magnet *14 pcs*2k replicators*5% share that?s a mere 4.2k$.
Not too much as a final result, although acceptable for the amount of ?work? done. But the value of total sales (only magnets) is close to 80k. That?s a good ?extra? sale for a company, isn?t it? And marketing is for free, for the same company!
I wouldn?t be surprise if I?d find out that the above-like scenarios are supported (if not initiated) by some interested magnet-manufacturing companies.
If you suspiciously look at the 2k figure, don?t even bother to say that it?s un-realistic assumption. It is not. In fact, considering the world-wide impact through many ?marketing? channels (many dedicated sites, you tube and other movie sites, forums, e-mails, even e-bay!) the figure may be well underestimated. Out of stock occurrences prove it.
That?s why you should continuously believe that PMMs are possible to build!
And it would be nice to make as many you can to believe the same! After all, it was undoubtedly proven! ;)
Cheers,
Tinu
Hi,
let ?s be realistic, the energy that the PMM produces making 10 full turns - if any - is much less than the energy required to magnetize the magnets. So, there is no OU here.
I spent enough money on magnets and I tried quite hard to make a real PMM but I failed to succeed to date.
Cheers,
Spacetrax
Quote from: spacetrax on February 20, 2008, 01:45:46 AM
"...However, he seems to know what is in my mind without asking him, so he begun telling me about magnets. they are like batteries whose energy is very hard to extract, once loaded, that is why the magnets hold their field for tens of years, and this fact lead many people to the FALSE IDEA that a motor made with permanent magnets would run for many years withoud adding energy in the system. But if one tricks the energy out of the magnets, making a magnet motor with them, they will demagnetise quite quickly, maybe in a few days, so this is not a real overunity system.
/Spacetrax
[/quote]
[/quote]
Just the contrary, show me a magnetic motor working for a very short time, say making 10 full turns in a row on its own while self starting and then try to argue with me it isn't OU.
[/quote]
Omni,
Have you been following Magnacoasters?
... http://www.youtube.com/magnacoastermotors
Apparently they are going into production with a system that "expends" neodymiums over a 10 year period.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: spacetrax on February 21, 2008, 12:44:35 AM
let ?s be realistic, the energy that the PMM produces making 10 full turns - if any - is much less than the energy required to magnetize the magnets. So, there is no OU here.
I spent enough money on magnets and I tried quite hard to make a real PMM but I failed to succeed to date.
You are wrong about this.
There is no need to produce the same amount of manufacturing electricity in a predetermined number of turns to define overunity.
As long as the motor will spin and deliver a useful torque capable of doing work it is considered being OU without doubt.
The power used when manufacturing a magnet has nothing do with the OU capacity.
They will not get drained. This is just an old myth hanging around. You should really use the link I sent you. Then you'll get the hang of it.
Quote from: spacetrax on February 21, 2008, 12:44:35 AM
Hi,
let ?s be realistic, the energy that the PMM produces making 10 full turns - if any - is much less than the energy required to magnetize the magnets. So, there is no OU here.
I spent enough money on magnets and I tried quite hard to make a real PMM but I failed to succeed to date.
Cheers,
Spacetrax
Quote from: spacetrax on February 20, 2008, 01:45:46 AM
"...However, he seems to know what is in my mind without asking him, so he begun telling me about magnets. they are like batteries whose energy is very hard to extract, once loaded, that is why the magnets hold their field for tens of years, and this fact lead many people to the FALSE IDEA that a motor made with permanent magnets would run for many years withoud adding energy in the system. But if one tricks the energy out of the magnets, making a magnet motor with them, they will demagnetise quite quickly, maybe in a few days, so this is not a real overunity system.
/Spacetrax
[/quote]
Just the contrary, show me a magnetic motor working for a very short time, say making 10 full turns in a row on its own while self starting and then try to argue with me it isn't OU.
[/quote]
[/quote]
The above shows clear misunderstanding of the scientific basis of overunity. If you have studied thermodynamics you would know that the energy put in to produce the machine is never taken into account when carrying out the energy balance. This is to be realistic. Therefore, if, once the motor is constructed it can make ten full turns on its own without external energy input, self-starting, then it's a proof that thermodynamic laws are violated which the whole contemporary science is up in arms against acknowledging no matter what evidence is presented. Since, however, we're interested in the truth and not in what a certain establishment acknowledges or doesn't acknowledge we have to recognize that the only scientifically rigorous proof for violation of CoE so far is provided by the Johannes Taisnierius device (contemporary SMOT, that is) producing energy out of nothing discontinuously. So far there has been no evidence whatsoever that anyone has constructed a device producing energy out of no source continuously. Therefore, despite the fact that violation of CoE has already been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, it's somewhat more practical aspect is still wanting.
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=QPpvsM5tuQU
more playing by me , would like to say it will work but am yet to be convinced
??? Can anyone help? I'm looking for a source for the rotor shaft and bearing as used on the alsetalonkin video. The shaft is mounted on a flange that is attached to the plastic base plate. Looks like it might be from a reel to reel tape recorder. I've read most of the 178 pages here and might have missed it if someone has mentioned how it was made. Or if someone has come up with a good substitute could you please tell me what to use and where the materials can be found. I'm not giving up on the untapped forces that magnets process. :-\
Quote from: CaDreamer on February 21, 2008, 04:08:00 PM
??? Can anyone help? I'm looking for a source for the rotor shaft and bearing as used on the alsetalonkin video. The shaft is mounted on a flange that is attached to the plastic base plate. Looks like it might be from a reel to reel tape recorder. I've read most of the 178 pages here and might have missed it if someone has mentioned how it was made. Or if someone has come up with a good substitute could you please tell me what to use and where the materials can be found. I'm not giving up on the untapped forces that magnets process. :-\
CaDreamer,Al's rotor shaft appears to be a "junkheap" part.
You might try the shaft from a record player turntable. My turntable actually lifts off the spindle -- much like a tape reel.
Cheers, :)
Yada..
.
Guys let's keep this on topic.
If you want discussions on different principles, please start another thread.
Well looks like everyone is giving up.
Whoever masterminded this whole thing, Mission accomplished. >:(
Quote from: g4macdad on February 21, 2008, 06:11:09 PM
Well looks like everyone is giving up.
Whoever masterminded this whole thing, Mission accomplished. >:(
How do you mean everyone is giving up? That's not true. I, for one, am not giving up.The situation as of now is that the only well understood device so far is the Johannes Taisnierius one (SMOT). How to apply the principles which the Taisnierius device is based on to produce excess energy continuously is still not understood well and that's not an unusual situation when research is carried out. The proposals so far for continuous production of excess energy are just some telltale sporadic empirical findings by people who themselves don't understand what they have done and how they've done it. The effect is there but it has to be pinpointed so that it can be made reproducible and that's a very challenging task.
I see @Grimer is trying but the main point is still missing--what's the mechanism for excess energy production in @alsetalokin's device. That business with the speed of magnetic field propagation being at the speed of light while the magnetic domain reorganization speed being much slower is fine but how does that explain the production of excess energy? That part is lacking.
The WhipMag acceleration is genuine.
The key to understanding is recognising the essential difference between GW and AGW rotation in terms of its implications for magnetic interaction; in recognising also why AGW rotation of the stators is relatively hard to obtain, relatively unstable, compared with GW rotation.
When you can see it the answer is painfully obvious.
In GW rotation the rotor is dragging the stators around. The magnetic fields are in attraction, in magnetic tension.
In AGW on the other hand the rotor is pushing the stator around. The magnetic fields are in repulsion, in magnetic compression.
Compression is inherently unstable whereas tension is inherently stable. If you push on a thin column say then it will buckle at a load well below the load it will take in tension. If you push a wheeled object it is difficult to keep in in a straight line, it will veer away from the force vector to one side or the other. If on the other hand you pull it, it will veer towards the force vector.
Now clearly, if you have one stator pushing the rotor one way, and two other stators pushing it the other then its a bit of a tug of war between them isn't it.
If you then suddenly stop the stators that are pulling, the GW stators, then the stator that is pushing, the AGW stator will speed up and accelerate the rotor - which is of course exactly what the Alsetalokin video shows.
==============================================================
It's appropriate at this stage to say a word about the speed of magnetic propagation.
In free space electromagnetism propagates at the speed of light but the magnetic domains in a magnet do not react at the speed of light but at a much lower speed. The magnet has a reaction time just as we have a reaction time and it is this which is important.
If someone fires a gun 30 feet away from our ear then we will take 0.2 seconds to react, say. This delay is our reaction time. It is as though the sound took 0.2 seconds to travel the 30 feet and our reaction time was zero. So the effective speed of sound is 150 feet/sec in this instance, not 1100 feet per second.
It's like air travel. To make a fair comparison with travel by train you have to take into consideration the hours you spend in the airports checking in at one end and trying to find your luggage at the other.
@Grimer,
This doesn't explain how the excess energy causing the acceleration is generated.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 21, 2008, 11:15:19 PM
I see @Grimer is trying but the main point is still missing--what's the mechanism for excess energy production in @alsetalokin's device. That business with the speed of magnetic field propagation being at the speed of light while the magnetic domain reorganization speed being much slower is fine but how does that explain the production of excess energy? That part is lacking.
Thank you very much Professor Omnibus. I appreciate your recognition that I am trying. ;)
And you are absolutely right. The $64,000 question is the explanation of the production of excess energy,
I have in fact already explained where the excess energy must be coming from both in the SPUD and on the Steorn Forum but either people are not capable of following the argument about the BH loop or else the cognitive dissonance is too great for them.
Funnily enough McCarthy was spot on with his bubble. However, he doesn't seem to have been able to develop whatever device he has up his sleeve to a practical commercial motor. I suppose he is more interested in making money than in a point of scientific principle. Fair enough I suppose. He is a business man, not a scientist like you.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 21, 2008, 05:47:09 AM
Quote from: spacetrax on February 21, 2008, 12:44:35 AM
Hi,
let ?s be realistic, the energy that the PMM produces making 10 full turns - if any - is much less than the energy required to magnetize the magnets. So, there is no OU here.
I spent enough money on magnets and I tried quite hard to make a real PMM but I failed to succeed to date.
Cheers,
Spacetrax
Quote from: spacetrax on February 20, 2008, 01:45:46 AM
"...However, he seems to know what is in my mind without asking him, so he begun telling me about magnets. they are like batteries whose energy is very hard to extract, once loaded, that is why the magnets hold their field for tens of years, and this fact lead many people to the FALSE IDEA that a motor made with permanent magnets would run for many years withoud adding energy in the system. But if one tricks the energy out of the magnets, making a magnet motor with them, they will demagnetise quite quickly, maybe in a few days, so this is not a real overunity system.
/Spacetrax
Just the contrary, show me a magnetic motor working for a very short time, say making 10 full turns in a row on its own while self starting and then try to argue with me it isn't OU.
[/quote]
[/quote]
The above shows clear misunderstanding of the scientific basis of overunity. If you have studied thermodynamics you would know that the energy put in to produce the machine is never taken into account when carrying out the energy balance. This is to be realistic. Therefore, if, once the motor is constructed it can make ten full turns on its own without external energy input, self-starting, then it's a proof that thermodynamic laws are violated which the whole contemporary science is up in arms against acknowledging no matter what evidence is presented.
Since, however, we're interested in the truth and not in what a certain establishment acknowledges or doesn't acknowledgewe we have to recognize that the only scientifically rigorous proof for violation of CoE so far is provided by the Johannes Taisnierius device (contemporary SMOT, that is) producing energy out of nothing discontinuously. So far there has been no evidence whatsoever that anyone has constructed a device producing energy out of no source continuously. Therefore, despite the fact that violation of CoE has already been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, its somewhat more practical aspect is still wanting.
[/quote]
Spot on Professor. I couldn't agree more. :-*
Well talking of Proffesors and working magnetic motors we have the following youtube info.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-O7WNvKSvY
Quote from: Grimer on February 22, 2008, 01:12:42 AM
The WhipMag acceleration is genuine.
The key to understanding is recognising the essential difference between GW and AGW rotation in terms of its implications for magnetic interaction; in recognising also why AGW rotation of the stators is relatively hard to obtain, relatively unstable, compared with GW rotation.
When you can see it the answer is painfully obvious.
In GW rotation the rotor is dragging the stators around. The magnetic fields are in attraction, in magnetic tension.
In AGW on the other hand the rotor is pushing the stator around. The magnetic fields are in repulsion, in magnetic compression.
.
. etc.
Grimer,I agree with you about the AGW acceleration -- no brainer.
...
Q: Grimer, do you think a Searl effect within the stator could generate motive power (i.e motion) instead of electrical?Compare a SEG to a typical roller bearing as used in the stator. (see below pics)
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: PolyMatrix on February 22, 2008, 01:51:58 AM
Well talking of Proffesors and working magnetic motors we have the following youtube info.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-O7WNvKSvY
He's got a nice hat. ;D
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 22, 2008, 03:03:21 AM
Quote from: Grimer on February 22, 2008, 01:12:42 AM
The WhipMag acceleration is genuine.
The key to understanding is recognising the essential difference between GW and AGW rotation in terms of its implications for magnetic interaction; in recognising also why AGW rotation of the stators is relatively hard to obtain, relatively unstable, compared with GW rotation.
When you can see it the answer is painfully obvious.
In GW rotation the rotor is dragging the stators around. The magnetic fields are in attraction, in magnetic tension.
In AGW on the other hand the rotor is pushing the stator around. The magnetic fields are in repulsion, in magnetic compression.
.
. etc.
Grimer,
I agree with you about the AGW acceleration -- no brainer.
... Q: Grimer, do you think a Searl effect within the stator could generate motive power (i.e. motion) instead of electrical?
To be perfectly honest I am unfamiliar with the Searl Effect so I'm in no position to give an opinion one way or the other. Sorry. :-\
Grimer,
OK, I'll let you slide on SEG. :D
... Q: Can you model the magnetic field in the bearing elements of a roller bearing that is surrounded by a magnetic flux and spinning 4700 RPM?
P.S. I have no clue.
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 22, 2008, 03:19:38 AM
Grimer,
OK, I'll let you slide on SEG. :D
... Q: Can you model the magnetic field in the bearing elements of a roller bearing that is surrounded by a magnetic flux and spinning 4700 RPM?
P.S. I have no clue.
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
Nope. But the first thing necessary is to confirm that the AGW stator is in repulsion mode and the GW stators are in attraction mode. That may be a no-brainer for you but I doubt if it is for most members. ;)
Quote from: Grimer on February 22, 2008, 04:11:44 AM
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 22, 2008, 03:19:38 AM
Grimer,
OK, I'll let you slide on SEG. :D
... Q: Can you model the magnetic field in the bearing elements of a roller bearing that is surrounded by a magnetic flux and spinning 4700 RPM?
P.S. I have no clue.
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
Nope. But the first thing necessary is to confirm that the AGW stator is in repulsion mode and the GW stators are in attraction mode. That may be a no-brainer for you but I doubt if it is for most members. ;)
Thanks. I don't know much about the Searl effect, so I guess I'll take this opportunity to learn. :D
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
Hi Everyone,
Please give some help on an idea of mine, I am a drop out from physics and have poor math skill.
?tron hypothesis
I thought, maybe there is a charged tiny thing exist and fill up the space (like ether). it is too small so we can not detect its mass/charge yet or it has no mass but only charge. Suppose it really exist and carry negative charge and its strength is like e/10^100 (let's call it ?tron).
Then, we can image ?trons attracted by nuclea and form a densed ball around it. And mean time ?trons repelled by electron and form an empty/loose ball around it. Because the nuclea and electron attracts each other, the two balls (one densed and one loosed ?tron ball) will attract each other and form atom. The rest of the space is still fill up with ?tron and its ?tron density is in between the two kind of balls.
In a light atom model, like H, we see two ?tron balls, one is the nuclea with densed ?trons around it, the other one is empty/loosed ?trons around electron. (kind of like an Earth sized beach ball float on Earth sized ocean. The ocean is the nuclea ball and the beach ball is the electron ball)
The H atom act as an dipole, has to marry another H to form H2 to be stable.
For a heavier atom model, like carbon, we see a denser nuclea ball with 6 electron balls around it.
In a very heavy atom, we see very densed nuclea ball with more layers of electron balls around it.
All the balls in all matters, act each other by electro force.
A magnet's structure is like many layers of atoms partially polarized, one direction is nuclear concentrated and the other direction is electron concentrated.
The electron concentrated plate (south pole) repells near by ?trons and form an empty/loose ?tron layer in space. This empty/loose layer will induce ?trons in the near by space to form a dense ?tron layer and so on so on. The dense/loose ?tron layers will attract each other to form magnetic field. The force strength is defined by the density of the ?tron in the field (1/R^3).
The nuclea concentrated plate (north pole) attracts ?tron and form a densed ?tron layer, it induce near by ?trons to form an empty/loose layer, the two layers attract each other and keep forming magnetic field.
Somehow, between matter/mass and matter, even the + - electrical charges are equal, it's net force is a weak attraction. The strength is defined by total charge (proportional to total mass) / R^2.
This is my best guase/explaination for gravity, magnetism and atom model.
Sorry about my poor English, be highly appreciate any comment/teaching/feedback.
Thanks ahead!
Ask, would it not be better top begin a new thread with your questions rather than spamming an existing thread devoted ( at least it was devoted ) to a specific project ?
As far as your question, I suggest you google "Coral castle code".... That *might* provide some insight to your line of inquiry.
Quote from: Grimer on February 22, 2008, 01:12:42 AM
The WhipMag acceleration is genuine.
The key to understanding is recognising the essential difference between GW and AGW rotation in terms of its implications for magnetic interaction; in recognising also why AGW rotation of the stators is relatively hard to obtain, relatively unstable, compared with GW rotation.
When you can see it the answer is painfully obvious.
In GW rotation the rotor is dragging the stators around. The magnetic fields are in attraction, in magnetic tension.
In AGW on the other hand the rotor is pushing the stator around. The magnetic fields are in repulsion, in magnetic compression.
Compression is inherently unstable whereas tension is inherently stable. If you push on a thin column say then it will buckle at a load well below the load it will take in tension. If you push a wheeled object it is difficult to keep in in a straight line, it will veer away from the force vector to one side or the other. If on the other hand you pull it, it will veer towards the force vector.
Now clearly, if you have one stator pushing the rotor one way, and two other stators pushing it the other then its a bit of a tug of war between them isn't it.
If you then suddenly stop the stators that are pulling, the GW stators, then the stator that is pushing, the AGW stator will speed up and accelerate the rotor - which is of course exactly what the Alsetalokin video shows.
==============================================================
It's appropriate at this stage to say a word about the speed of magnetic propagation.
In free space electromagnetism propagates at the speed of light but the magnetic domains in a magnet do not react at the speed of light but at a much lower speed. The magnet has a reaction time just as we have a reaction time and it is this which is important.
If someone fires a gun 30 feet away from our ear then we will take 0.2 seconds to react, say. This delay is our reaction time. It is as though the sound took 0.2 seconds to travel the 30 feet and our reaction time was zero. So the effective speed of sound is 150 feet/sec in this instance, not 1100 feet per second.
It's like air travel. To make a fair comparison with travel by train you have to take into consideration the hours you spend in the airports checking in at one end and trying to find your luggage at the other.
In view of the above there must be an optimum torsional resistance for the stators. Too little and the push-pull between them will be too small. Too much and they wont move at all, of course.
Correct me if I'm mistaken but I get the impression that people have been opting for as little resistance to turning as possible. This would seem to be a mistake and probably explains the lack of a Alsetalokin replication so far (and Al's sore thumb, maybe. ;D )
Grimer,
On the topic of Al's sore thumb:
Q: What do you make of this video -- around 01:10 -- where the builder simply pivots the stator to place it in AWG.
... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_o08Il8mqk
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
@Grimer,
QuoteCorrect me if I'm mistaken but I get the impression that people have been opting for as little resistance to turning as possible. This would seem to be a mistake and probably explains the lack of a Alsetalokin replication so far (and Al's sore thumb, maybe.
I don't think this to be the case. The problem is to find the proper resistance relationship. I noted on several occasions that lubricating the stator with penetrating wrench oil lubricant changes dramatically the behavior of the rig. Not so if you do that with the rotor. So, I suggested we'd play with varying the lubricants for the rotor and the stators in trying to find the lucky strike.
I'd like, however, to continue discussing your theory of excess energy production picking it up at the point we left it. Let me do it in another posting.
@Grimer,
So we left the conversation at the point where we both agreed that the H and B you?re talking about are not the H which induced the B to begin with. Therefore, the H-B hysteresis you talk about is not the hysteresis usually understood, inferred when the behavior (in terms of its induction B) of a ferromagnetic material is observed under the action of an external magnetic field H. In the case you?re observing you?re treating the B of the already produced magnet as the H which changes the B of another already produced magnet. You should agree, however, that if such a picture is to be adopted then both magnets exert influence on each other and either one can be pronounced as H, not only the stronger one, as you insist, especially when they are so close in properties (supposedly, because one is N38, the other is N42).
Let?s, however, adopt the picture you propose, that is, that the stronger magnet (the stator) produces the H field while the weaker magnet (the rotor) is the receptor and we?re studying its B.
First off, I think we should designate these new H and B as deltaH and deltaB or H? and B? to distingush them from the genuine H and B.
Then we?ll observe how B? changes with changing H?, to and fro. This will form a nice little hysteresis loop within the inherent (the one it came to us from the factory) hysteresis loop of the rotor magnet.
The area enclosed by this nice little hysteresis loop will give us the energy spent to carry out this whole exercise, that is, to move the stator closer and closer to the rotor and then remove it away from it, thus varying the H.
Now, again, the main question arises?how was that energy supplied that energy spontaneously? Mind you, for this to be a perpetuum mobile said energy must come out of no energy source. Is that the case?
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 22, 2008, 10:38:27 AM
Grimer,
On the topic of Al's sore thumb:
Q: What do you make of this video -- around 01:10 -- where the builder simply pivots the stator to place it in AWG.
... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_o08Il8mqk
Cheers :)
Yada...
That is most ingenious. The obvious way to get AGW.
If I were an experimentalist I would kick myself and say, "Why didn't I think of that?"
Rotation combined with a micrometer screw to move the stator in and out, together with some kind of controllable brake, a variable propeller perhaps, and one has a lot of relevant factors to investigate.
Thanks for bringing that video to the forum's attention, Yada.
Quote from: Grimer on February 22, 2008, 11:06:51 AM
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 22, 2008, 10:38:27 AM
Grimer,
On the topic of Al's sore thumb:
Q: What do you make of this video -- around 01:10 -- where the builder simply pivots the stator to place it in AWG.
... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_o08Il8mqk
Cheers :)
Yada...
That is most ingenious. The obvious way to get AGW.
If I were an experimentalist I would kick myself and say, "Why didn't I think of that?"
Rotation combined with a micrometer screw to move the stator in and out, together with some kind of controllable brake, a variable propeller perhaps, and one has a lot of relevant factors to investigate.
Thanks for bringing that video to the forum's attention, Yada.
Grimer,Thanks. Harvey found it a few days ago and posted it at FIZZX. I posted it here as well a few days ago, but no one commented on it. Again, to me a no brainer.
I'd like to see what happens when
all three stators are pivoted simultaneously to AGW. ???
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Grimer on February 22, 2008, 11:06:51 AM
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 22, 2008, 10:38:27 AM
Grimer,
On the topic of Al's sore thumb:
Q: What do you make of this video -- around 01:10 -- where the builder simply pivots the stator to place it in AWG.
... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_o08Il8mqk
Cheers :)
Yada...
That is most ingenious. The obvious way to get AGW.
If I were an experimentalist I would kick myself and say, "Why didn't I think of that?"
Rotation combined with a micrometer screw to move the stator in and out, together with some kind of controllable brake, a variable propeller perhaps, and one has a lot of relevant factors to investigate.
Thanks for bringing that video to the forum's attention, Yada.
I can't agree more. Remember how many times I've been talking about these micrometric screws and making a device appropriate for study the various parameters. Those who have worked towards their PhD's know what I mean. Sometimes it takes years to assemble the needed devices for proper scientific exploration, Unfortunately, most, if not all, of those working on this project are doing it on a shoestring and making such device is way beyond their means. The device in the video isn't an exception. It's a good try but far from what's needed for a systematic study of the phenomenon. Thus, at this point we have to rely on the "instructions" of a poor slob such as @alsetalokin who doesn't even know what he has done. That's pathetic but that's the reality we're facing.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 22, 2008, 11:26:49 AM
Quote from: Grimer on February 22, 2008, 11:06:51 AM
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 22, 2008, 10:38:27 AM
Grimer,
On the topic of Al's sore thumb:
Q: What do you make of this video -- around 01:10 -- where the builder simply pivots the stator to place it in AWG.
... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_o08Il8mqk
Cheers :)
Yada...
That is most ingenious. The obvious way to get AGW.
If I were an experimentalist I would kick myself and say, "Why didn't I think of that?"
Rotation combined with a micrometer screw to move the stator in and out, together with some kind of controllable brake, a variable propeller perhaps, and one has a lot of relevant factors to investigate.
Thanks for bringing that video to the forum's attention, Yada.
I can't agree more. Remember how many times I've been talking about these micrometric screws and making a device appropriate for study the various parameters. Those who have worked towards their PhD's know what I mean. Sometimes it takes years to assemble the needed devices for proper scientific exploration, Unfortunately, most, if not all, of those working on this project are doing it on a shoestring and making such device is way beyond their means. The device in the video isn't an exception. It's a good try but far from what's needed for a systematic study of the phenomenon. Thus, at this point we have to rely on the "instructions" of a poor slob such as @alsetalokin who doesn't even know what he has done. That's pathetic but that's the reality we're facing.
Again, quite right Professor. Mind you, even though I gave Carmine Corrente a hard time myself when I thought he had perpetrated a hoax on us, I think calling him a "slob" might be a wee bit harsh. ;D
You obviously recognise the deficiencies of the existing canon. Clearly, there are many forum members, especially the more scientifically inclined, who have a babcatian faith in the "laws" and have never managed to climb out of the grooves that a little education has worn into their brains. They have therefore never benefited from contemplating the panoramic vistas of the high plateaux.
The garage mechanics on the other hand have the advantage of being able to uninhibitedly rush in where scientific angels fear to tread.
By the way, I'm not ignoring your previous post on BH loops, etc. I want some to give it the attention and thought it deserves before replying.
@Grimer,
I was just too polite with this Corrente guy. He deserves much worse.
Now, let?s continue our interesting discussion concerning the essence of the phenomenon at hand.
Once again, my lack of artistic talent inhibits my ability to convey the message, but what the heck,
The Green arrows are the direction of rotation, The red arrows are the direction of repulsive force.
the grey area with black lines is supposed to represent the Flux Compression.
when the rotor/stator are lined up just before the north poles pass, the lines of flux are pushed in the direction of the rotor, bending them outwards, but the force at this moment, is a vector in the ouward direction - basically on the stator shaft, away from the rotor - not on the stator itself,which would prevent it from spinning. this is important
now, as the poles come together, the flux is already compressed (like a spring) and the force in in the direction of rotation, pushing both rotor and stator away from each other.
As i understand, making this happen was a pure accident,.. replicating it continiously has proven to be quit a task. one that i have failed at myself.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 22, 2008, 10:16:06 PM
Once again, my lack of artistic talent inhibits my ability to convey the message, but what the heck,
The Green arrows are the direction of rotation, The red arrows are the direction of repulsive force.
the grey area with black lines is supposed to represent the Flux Compression.
when the rotor/stator are lined up just before the north poles pass, the lines of flux are pushed in the direction of the rotor, bending them outwards, but the force at this moment, is a vector in the ouward direction - basically on the stator shaft, away from the rotor - not on the stator itself,which would prevent it from spinning. this is important
now, as the poles come together, the flux is already compressed (like a spring) and the force in in the direction of rotation, pushing both rotor and stator away from each other.
As i understand, making this happen was a pure accident,.. replicating it continiously has proven to be quit a task. one that i have failed at myself.
Sm0ky2,Below are properly sequenced stroboscopic pics of Al's device at 4620 RPM operating in AWG (co-rotation). Do these agree with your drawing?
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
@smOky2,
The compression you're talking about requires external energy input and therefore isn't spontaneous as it should be if the acceleration we see is real. If you disagree explain how what you're depicting happens spontaneously.
@ Omnibus
> So we left the conversation at the point where we both agreed that the H and B
> you?re talking about are not the H which induced the B to begin with. Therefore,
> the H-B hysteresis you talk about is not the hysteresis usually understood,
> inferred when the behavior (in terms of its induction B) of a ferromagnetic
> material is observed under the action of an external magnetic field H. In the
> case you?re observing you?re treating the B of the already produced magnet as
> the H which changes the B of another already produced magnet.
Spot on. In the case of the traditional stress-strain relation for a material for example, one can view the stress as an environmental strain, the test machine being the environment and the test machine plus specimen as a closed system where energy is being lost by one part and gained by the other, the direction depending on whether the specimen is being tested in tension or compression obviously.
I achieved this insight of the complete inverse symmetry of stress and strain when we were testing concrete 12 x 6 x 6 inch prisms with a 12 x 6 x 6 inch steel block as a load cell.
Both were instrumented with strain gauges, internal for the concrete external for the steel.
I could see that though we were treating the steel as the stress and the concrete as the strain we could have just as well done it the other way around. Or we could treat both at strain in which case areas of the strain-strain diagram would represent stain2, strain energy in other words, which is a perfectly acceptable and familiar way of viewing energy.
Now with the BH diagram we are already half way there because both B and H have the same dimensions using the term in the dimensional analysis sense. So we can see immediately that which we call H and which we call B is arbitrary. Also, we don't have to use the varying field of a static electro-magnet to drive B around its BH loop, we can instead use the unvarying field of a movable permanent magnet to drive the B around its loop.
> You should agree, however, that if such a picture is to be adopted then both
> magnets exert influence on each other and either one can be pronounced as H,
> not only the stronger one, as you insist, especially when they are so close
> in properties (supposedly, because one is N38, the other is N42).
I do agree, absolutely. The magnets could be the same strength in which case it is arbitrary which we designate B and which we designate H. Indeed one can go even further and designate a weaker magnet as H if we want to, though obviously the weaker magnet could only drive the stronger magnet around an, what shall we call it, an internal loop?, and not get it up to the same level as a more powerful magnet ( it should be pointed out, however, that there is no such thing as a complete loop since one would need a infinitely powerful H for that. All the loops are partial but some are more partial than others :) ).
> Let?s, however, adopt the picture you propose, that is, that the stronger magnet
> (the stator) produces the H field while the weaker magnet (the rotor) is the
> receptor and we?re studying its B.
> First off, I think we should designate these new H and B as deltaH and deltaB or
> H? and B? to distinguish them from the genuine H and B.
I'm easy with that provided the word "genuine" is replaced by "conventional".
> Then we?ll observe how B? changes with changing H?, to and fro. This will form a
> nice little hysteresis loop within the inherent (the one it came to us from the
> factory) hysteresis loop of the rotor magnet.
Not necessarily a maximum loop. One can be working within a particular quadrant, the second say.
> The area enclosed by this nice little hysteresis loop will give us the energy
> spent to carry out this whole exercise, that is, to move the stator closer and
> closer to the rotor and then remove it away from it, thus varying the H.
Again, not necessarily a complete loop but say a partial loop in the second quadrant.
> Now, again, the main question arises?how was that energy supplied that energy
> spontaneously? Mind you, for this to be a perpetuum mobile said energy must come
> out of no energy source. Is that the case?
Ah now we get to the essential question. Where does the energy come from?
People see charge as positive and negative above a zero, a nothing.
People see magnetic potential the same way.
But they don't see temperature like that unless they are non-scientific laymen and regard ambient temperature as neither hot or cold and ambient as an imperceptible sensation; as a "no sensation", a nothing in other words.
I recognise that the flux pattern between the two poles of a magnet as being the same as the flow pattern between a source and a sink at the bottom of a deep ocean because in hierarchical system terms that is exactly what it is. Likewise with charge.
So where does the energy come from. It comes from the magnetic equivalent of the deep ocean pressure.
Though that Gestalt Switch may be too much for you, I'm sure you can understand what it is that I am claiming.
How one visualises the medium that exerts that pressure is down to one's scientific predilections. Virtual photon pressure? Aether pressure? Space distortion pressure? Zero-point-Energy pressure? Take your pick. I have chosen to designate it Gamma-atmosphere pressure in line with my Iterative Hierarchical Mechanics view of things.
@Grimer,
Although I don?t see why your, no doubt, unusual picture of what you refer to as the pressure of the gamma atmosphere should be better than the field picture and why they should give different results in the energy balance I?d like to skip discussing this and get to the central problem?the spontaneous production of energy causing the device to accelerate without the intervention of the researcher.
Using your idea for the non-conventional hysteresis in the second quadrant I should again emphasize that there are in fact two such hysteresises, depending on whether the weaker or the stronger magnet is chosen to be the H? field.
Applying this picture one may suggest that to achieve the desired acceleration a condition has to be realized whereby these two hysteresis loops would enclose different areas. This would be a natural difference due to the properties of the magnets and that natural difference would spontaneously provide the needed extra energy from within to cause acceleration. Thus, we have been unsuccessful so far because we haven?t attained that condition and all we?ve done is cause symmetric non-conventional hysteresises while @alsetalokin has somehow inadvertently hit upon the desired asymmetry.
The above explanation, although based on your non-conventional H?-B? hysteresis, differs from yours but seems to provide a way to explain the excess energy through these H?-B? loops. It would be interesting to study this mutually induced hysteresis in concrete magnet samples and see whether the discussed difference really exists and the conditions for its appearance, if it does.
@ Omnibus
Thanks for your interesting and considered reply.
I think we have explored our individual viewpoints of the matter as far as is sensible at the present. To try to take it further would be a bridge too far unless and until some experimental confirmation of the Alsetalokin Effect is forthcoming. Also, it is best to leave concepts as fluid as possible so that one does not firm them up down some blind alley from which one has to retreat, always an intellectually painful business. ::)
We cannot yet be certain the Effect is genuine but I take the view that it is more sensible to assume it is and eventually find out we were mistaken than to assume that it isn't and loose a unique opportunity.
If power is being developed then the only rational explanation in my book is the enclosing of a area of the BH, BB, or HH :) diagram in by a counter-wise loop to the refrigeration loop. In short, the magneto-dynamic analog of the thermo-dynamic power cycle with the motion of the magnosphere being the source just as the motion of the local thermosphere is the source in the case of the archetypal Carnot cycle.
@Grimer,
That's the best, indeed, to postpone further discussion on the nature of this phenomenon until we establish for sure that it's a real phenomenon. When the time comes I' be curious to learn more about your approach. Until then, I guess, purely empirical efforts will be the priority.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 22, 2008, 10:56:37 PM
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 22, 2008, 10:16:06 PM
Once again, my lack of artistic talent inhibits my ability to convey the message, but what the heck,
The Green arrows are the direction of rotation, The red arrows are the direction of repulsive force.
the grey area with black lines is supposed to represent the Flux Compression.
when the rotor/stator are lined up just before the north poles pass, the lines of flux are pushed in the direction of the rotor, bending them outwards, but the force at this moment, is a vector in the ouward direction - basically on the stator shaft, away from the rotor - not on the stator itself,which would prevent it from spinning. this is important
now, as the poles come together, the flux is already compressed (like a spring) and the force in in the direction of rotation, pushing both rotor and stator away from each other.
As i understand, making this happen was a pure accident,.. replicating it continiously has proven to be quit a task. one that i have failed at myself.
Sm0ky2,
Below are properly sequenced stroboscopic pics of Al's device at 4620 RPM operating in AWG (co-rotation). Do these agree with your drawing?
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
my "drawing" is not to scale, but essentially YES, those photos are correct. and also demonstrate what i was saying about the south poles not providing the driving force. the south poles reallign the stator for the next set of "N" magnets to push them along.
-- I notice something else from those photos which i wish i had caught before. they are not "synchronized". And this may be why my devices did not display the same properties.
take a look at the lower photos, stator is in the same position, rotor is not.
so it only "pushes" at certain times, not 4 times per rotation, as i previously thought - and had attempted to construct my device to do.
Can we get any more of those photostrobic pics? it would be great to have the full sequence.
@ OMNI - there is a force required to allight the magnets in this way, which is off-set by the speed moving rotor - because of the vector-force of the flux compression, the negative force is not against the direction of rotation it is outwards. until the compressed flux reaches its limit and is contracted back into "shape" - at that point both forces are in the direction of rotation
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 22, 2008, 10:56:37 PM
Sm0ky2,
Below are properly sequenced stroboscopic pics of Al's device at 4620 RPM operating in AWG (co-rotation). Do these agree with your drawing?
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
Don't forget, I think Al stated over on fizzx that the stator in these photos was marked wrong, about 5 degrees off and that he thought it would align properly.
@smOky2:
Quote@ OMNI - there is a force required to allight the magnets in this way, which is off-set by the speed moving rotor - because of the vector-force of the flux compression, the negative force is not against the direction of rotation it is outwards. until the compressed flux reaches its limit and is contracted back into "shape" - at that point both forces are in the direction of rotation
This is interesting but should be explained more thoroughly.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 23, 2008, 05:25:40 PM
@smOky2:
Quote@ OMNI - there is a force required to allight the magnets in this way, which is off-set by the speed moving rotor - because of the vector-force of the flux compression, the negative force is not against the direction of rotation it is outwards. until the compressed flux reaches its limit and is contracted back into "shape" - at that point both forces are in the direction of rotation
This is interesting but should be explained more thoroughly.
i can only explain this with respect to my "replication", as i am now quite certain that AL's motor is not synchronized in the same manner that mine are.
that being said - i will describe the reaction between rotor and stator when they ARE synchronized.
during the non-synchronized parts of the cycle, i am not sure how the stator/rotor are reacting,
and if the photographs are "off by 10-degrees" as was previously stated, then this is even more confusing - if anyone has accurate information about stator<->rotor positions during the FULL CYCLE of AL's device, it would be greatly appreciated ...
I will use the North end of the magnet for this, but (except for a minute difference) the north and south are essentially the same.
as the North monopole turns towards the stator , just where the bulge in the flux lines come to the outer edge of the stator - the opposing magnets try to push away from each other. - there is a "lock point" just outside this region, where if not moving fast enough, the stator will stop, and the rotor will get a pulse of back-torque. - if the speed of the stator is enough to overcome this, it turns inwards past the lock-point, once this occurs the lines of flux are forced in the direction of the rotor.
the force vector is perpendicular to this, - primarily on the shaft of the stator, trying to push stator and rotor aay from one another. - the shaft resists this and the stator continues to turn, once past the (magnetic) half-way point, the flux hits a critical maximum compression, and pushes back,
by this time the rotor is past the halfway point and the two "N" poles push away from each other in a rotational direction.
What i am starting to realize now, is that in a "synchronized" device, the force at the "lock-point" is essentially equivalent to the push force. The result of this, is the stator gradually looses speed, (from friction) resulting in system decay.
in AL's motor - it appears that the stator and rotor are in different relative position, as they approach each other, at each of the 8 "monopoles". -this is the main difference between my replication, and the original.
What i am starting to realize now, is that in a "synchronized" device, the force at the "lock-point" is essentially equivalent to the push force. The result of this, is the stator gradually looses speed, (from friction) resulting in system decay.
in AL's motor - it appears that the stator and rotor are in different relative position, as they approach each other, at each of the 8 "monopoles". -this is the main difference between my replication, and the original.
[/quote]\
so are you hinting that if the stator was retarded or advanced a little (not sure which way, i havent put too much thought into it), the main rotor would speed up ?. ;)
what is observed from the stator-rotor mesh when both poles approach properly, there is a "lock-point" (sticky spot around a circumferance), then a flux compression, followed by a kick in the direction of both rotor and stator, respectively. - which is +/- equal to the repulsion at the lock-point.
what i am suggesting is that, such retardation/detardation might offset the "lock-point", such that there is only a force in the rotational direction, and the force against the shaft (which doesnt hurt us).
This would explain the variation from the 4:1 spin ratio between rotor/stator that would be consistant, were they actually synchronized. - i originally assumed this was an error with the accuracy of the optical RPM device. but maybe i was wrong..
sm0ky2,
RE: Stroboscopic pics
I screen-captured the pics from Al's third video, which you can download from CLaNZeR's site:
... Al's Stroboscopic WMV vid: http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/alsetalokin/AlsetalokinsThirdVideo.wmv
Note that the strobe is set to the stator speed. Thus, because the rotor is spinning at 4:1, there are some strobing artifacts.
I hope Al marked the stator polarity correctly. :o
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 23, 2008, 10:37:52 PM
sm0ky2,
RE: Stroboscopic pics
I screen-captured the pics from Al's third video, which you can download from CLaNZeR's site:
... Al's Stroboscopic WMV vid: http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/alsetalokin/AlsetalokinsThirdVideo.wmv
Note that the strobe is set to the stator speed. Thus, because the rotor is spinning at 4:1, there are some strobing artifacts.
I hope Al marked the stator polarity correctly. :o
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
by "strobing artifacts", do you mean that the video does not show the proper allignment?
- and thus these pictures do not reflect the actual occurance?
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 23, 2008, 10:50:42 PM
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 23, 2008, 10:37:52 PM
sm0ky2,
RE: Stroboscopic pics
I screen-captured the pics from Al's third video, which you can download from CLaNZeR's site:
... Al's Stroboscopic WMV vid: http://www.overunity.org.uk/ocpm/alsetalokin/AlsetalokinsThirdVideo.wmv
Note that the strobe is set to the stator speed. Thus, because the rotor is spinning at 4:1, there are some strobing artifacts.
I hope Al marked the stator polarity correctly. :o
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
by "strobing artifacts", do you mean that the video does not show the proper allignment?
- and thus these pictures do not reflect the actual occurance?
sm0ky2,In the video you'll see multiple "shadow" instances of the large tape section that Al uses for alignment. When viewing the video normally, it seems that there are four instances, but pause the video and notice that there are never more than three instances -- any where between two and three.
Why never one instance?
1. A strobe of 4620 RPM produces 77 flashes per second (4620/60 = 77).
2. At 4620 RPM stator, the rotor is spinning 1155 RPM, or 19 revs per second.
3. According to the WMV properties, Al was filming at 25 frames per second.
4. Due to the asynchronousness of the above three events, within a given frame there will be multiple exposures of the rotor.
5. Although the frame rate was 25 fps, we don't know how long the "shutter" was open each frame.
6. Lastly, because the ratio between the flash and the shutter is 77:25 or >3:1, we can predict there will be a max of three ghosts (if the stars line up correctly, etc.).
Al must have known what he was doing when he made the strobe video, and I believe he tweaked the strobe and possibly the frame rate to produce the best outcome. Of course, I can't say for certain. I hate to say this, but given that his behaviour has been peculiar, he might have fudged the video to throw us off. ;D
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
I think it would be difficult to put together a simple force diagram to explain how this device could work.
It would take serious "circular reasoning" to create a force diagram that would allow this particular arrangement to work.
Concerning all of these magnet only "motors", I will pose "the dingbat corollary" as follows:
If a device has any position within it's rotation where it will remain at rest, it will ultimately stop after being manually rotated to some speed.
In other words, if the device does not have to be held to keep it from turning, it will not maintain rotation, even if it is manually rotated.
The short version of "the dingbat corollary" is: If it can stop, it will stop.
This Whipmag device has many positions at which it will remain at rest. I say, by reason of the dingbat corollary, this device cannot work.
I believe for any device like this to work, it would have to be under constraint or force at all positions throughout it's operating cycle to work. In other words, it would have to be held in position by some outside means to make it not rotate. Any time the rotor would be released, the device would accelerate into it's operational cycle.
The Whipmag arrangement does not want to accelerate from a resting position. If you rotate it and cause "latching", there is no opposing force to accelerate the rotor, because the stators are also free to rotate. You simply can't create a force diagram that will allow this device to work. The rotor has to apply force to the stator, and the stator has to apply force to the rotor. There is no way to create an imbalance in the forces that will cause acceleration, because the part that needs to push on the other part can simply rotate itself. (acceleration requires an imbalance in forces that you can't create with this arrangement.)
In my humble opinion, of course.
db
Quote from: dingbat on February 24, 2008, 12:34:28 PM
I think it would be difficult to put together a simple force diagram to explain how this device could work.
It would take serious "circular reasoning" to create a force diagram that would allow this particular arrangement to work.
Concerning all of these magnet only "motors", I will pose "the dingbat corollary" as follows:
If a device has any position within it's rotation where it will remain at rest, it will ultimately stop after being manually rotated to some speed.
In other words, if the device does not have to be held to keep it from turning, it will not maintain rotation, even if it is manually rotated.
The short version of "the dingbat corollary" is: If it can stop, it will stop.
This Whipmag device has many positions at which it will remain at rest. I say, by reason of the dingbat corollary, this device cannot work.
I believe for any device like this to work, it would have to be under constraint or force at all positions throughout it's operating cycle to work. In other words, it would have to be held in position by some outside means to make it not rotate. Any time the rotor would be released, the device would accelerate into it's operational cycle.
The Whipmag arrangement does not want to accelerate from a resting position. If you rotate it and cause "latching", there is no opposing force to accelerate the rotor, because the stators are also free to rotate. You simply can't create a force diagram that will allow this device to work. The rotor has to apply force to the stator, and the stator has to apply force to the rotor. There is no way to create an imbalance in the forces that will cause acceleration, because the part that needs to push on the other part can simply rotate itself. (acceleration requires an imbalance in forces that you can't create with this arrangement.)
In my humble opinion, of course.
db
THis was the reason why I rejected @alsetalokin's device out of hand, if you've followed the whole story. However, on a second thought, it is possible that the construction of the device which enables it to work may not be just a stationary placement of its different parts with respect to each other. For the desired additional effect of acceleration to kick in it may be absolutely essential that some of these parts are in mutual motion. Once this additional effect of acceleration appears (enabled by the initial setting in motion of some of the parts of the machine) the initial input of energy to move these parts is more than compensated further when the effect of acceleration emerges. Therefore, there may be instances whereby your corollary may not hold. That would be the case if @alsetalokin's accelerates the way it does in his first video. that is, if @alsetalokin's device isn't faked.
@Harvey,
What's the point of making these videos
http://youtube.com/watch?v=S9mYO71ZW7c
and
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ALrTuO5t9cM
These are well known effects, well understood and they cannot be used as a demonstration of CoE violation. I'm afraid videos such as these only feed the need of some very stupid people such as @Big Oil Rep to blabber nonsense in the forums.
@ Dingbat,
This is exactly the reason i had designed my whipmags to be "synchronized".
the flux-pattern at a 4:1 ratio, compresses then expands, which does exactly that - pushes on both rotor and stator in the direction of motion.
unfortunately, this same synchronization - causes both rotor and stator to cummulatively pass a "stickyspot" prior to this repulsion, which cancels it out.
If the original video - and subsequent responses from its creator - were not "faked".
then im fairly confident now, that if this is to work at all, there is an unsynchronized relationship between rotor and stator. It would be logical to conclude, this being an Octagon, that the phases are in even numbers. perhaps two synchronized, and two reversed? i have no way of knowing this, nor of causing it to occur, so at this point i am at a loss with the WhipMag. My synchronized versions, are no more than a Flywheel with drag...
If anyone can examine the operation of the original device, in terms of relative location between rotor and stator, at each of the 8 "monopoles" around the rotor, this may allow us to replicate the effect.
@ OMNI - those two videos demonstrate a very interesting principle.
the off-set magnetic fields rolling the ball.
if he were to only allow the ball to drop off with gravity,..
let it fall through a hole, and roll back up into the......
SMOT?
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 24, 2008, 08:21:58 PM
@ OMNI - those two videos demonstrate a very interesting principle.
the off-set magnetic fields rolling the ball.
if he were to only allow the ball to drop off with gravity,..
let it fall through a hole, and roll back up into the......
SMOT?
I disagree. These videos demonstrate something trivial and well understood. Unlike SMOT, here the return to the initial state requires the input of the same amount of work as the amount that has been gained. That's not interesting at all.
@sm0ky2
I must have missed something. What exactly have you done to sychronize the operation of your whipmag? Is it geared?
Quote from: leeanderthal on February 24, 2008, 09:16:46 PM
@sm0ky2
I must have missed something. What exactly have you done to sychronize the operation of your whipmag? Is it geared?
its magnetically geared. viewing this from a magnetic standpoint - the circumference of the magnetic field of the stator and the circumference formed by the outermost tips of the "bulge" made by the monopoles are at a ratio of 4:1 ( 5:1 on the Decagon version)
the result when spun "GW" - is that they turn at precisely 4:1 ratio. the same point of the N/S stator passes the same point of the "bulge" of each N and S "monopole" respectively.
when it catches in "AGW" - the poles are reversed, but the gearing is still synchronized, in the same way.
Again - this balances out the forces, and the end result is a steadily decreasing rotor speed.
i was heading in the wrong direction by synchronizing it. apparently.
So who is the person who made the video? and why cant he make a couple more videos? or come to some of our houses? or we go to his? or some one get another view of how it works? Has any one got it working ? I never read all 180 pages of this thread just about 10 of them. The first has a picture of a motor that looks close but it is missing something I cant remember what he called them but they looked like metal bushings. I found a video of a guy who gets a sphere magnet to levetate by spinnng two coper tubes opasite directions next to each other and the sphere floats in the center. I just started to play with a bunch of magnets again I tried about 6 years ago with no sucess but youtube and the price of rare earth magnets has got me intrested again.
I am very surprised that no one has physically geared the stator to the rotor and made it adjustable ( phase and distance from rotor but with also maybe 1 or 2 degrees slack in the gearing ) if someone has then I'm sorry i missed it in the posts, as this is what I was next going to try but I have been side tracked with another project but I will revisit this one when I get board again ::)
[edit]
Quote from: Arlo#1 on February 25, 2008, 12:31:46 AM
So who is the person who made the video?
and why cant he make a couple more videos?
or come to some of our houses?
or we go to his?
or some one get another view of how it works?
Has any one got it working ?
His screen name is nicolateslA spelled backwards... Al for short.
He can, but won't due to the harassment, ridicule, and other acts done by the "skeptics", Omni would you care to add anything here ?
Why should he ? He never claimed overunity. which is what he was accused of with the acts in question 2.
same as your second question.
same as your second question.
no.
Isn't it a wonderful world we live in when discoveries are supressed in this manner ?
Picture 100+ guys like this jumping on your discovery and that may put it in perspective for you. -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsRwuHyFZQU&feature=related
Quote from: JFK on February 25, 2008, 09:31:43 AM
Quote from: Arlo#1 on February 25, 2008, 12:31:46 AM
So who is the person who made the video?
and why cant he make a couple more videos?
or come to some of our houses?
or we go to his?
or some one get another view of how it works?
Has any one got it working ?
His screen name is nicolateslA spelled backwards... Al for short.
He can, but won't due to the harassment, ridicule, and other acts done by the "skeptics", Omni would you care to add anything here ?
Why should he ? He never claimed overunity. which is what he was accused of with the acts in question 2.
same as your second question.
same as your second question.
no.
Isn't it a wonderful world we live in when discoveries are supressed in this manner ?
Picture 100+ guys like this jumping on your discovery and that may put it in perspective for you. -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsRwuHyFZQU&feature=related
A real discovery can not be suppressed. One inventor may me impeded or even killed but the discovery will survive.
Imho better watch more of Desertphile. It would be a very good spent time, educational also besides of having fun.
And it happens he is just the right balance in a crazy world. Take whatever side of the balance fits to you but note that to me a poor&fake video (story, ?discovery?, hoax or whatever one might call it) is much more offensive than the language of Desertphile. Like I said, he?s just restoring the equilibrium. 100+ of guys like him will not stop a working device. The problem is elsewhere. Your guess.
Last opinion: all questions raised by Arlo#1 are perfectly legitimate.
Cheers,
Tinu
@tinu,
You have been proven to be incompetent on these matters and yet you have the nerve to express opinions. A decent person in your place would hide somewhere until it's somehow forgotten what nonsense he's been spewing regarding the technical issues discussed.
As for @alsetalokin, he's a despicable human being making obvious idiots such as @Desertphile sound legitimate. As a matter of fact, @alsetalokin was basking in the curses and abuse @Desertphile was directing at him. What a moron. I regret I wasn't harsher with that clown, he really deserves it.
Actually I have watched many of his 451 youtube videos.
I partially agree with only one of those which is totally off topic for a board such as this one.
Nevertheless I won't cite him because of the way he presents his "knowledge".
If you read the comments in the youtube I posted, he admits to taking a bullet in the back....
My question is why only one.
@omnibus,
I?ve been proved to be incompetent exactly in the same degree as you proved that CoE is violated: not at all.
And I?ve told you to talk to somebody else, haven?t I? Talk to people that will buy your crap, ok? You have absolutely nothing to tell to me. Get used to it and make yourself happy.
@JFK,
The proof that alsetalokin video is faked is long posted into this very thread. I?ve seen it at least twice. It?s just that either the proof was not observed (which I strongly doubt) or it is rather not commented because of other reasons.
Anyway, take Desertphile beyond what he seems to be at a first glance. It?s not that he is right (although he actually is), but his multi-facet way of thinking and elementary simple but nonetheless true arguments are actually genial. He is caustic but all MF fakers deserve it and much worst. It?s high-class reaction to somewhat that otherwise would not even worth commenting if not becoming a plague of our times and a miserable game of deceiving.
Now, where the f*** is the next PMM?
Cheers,
Tinu
@tinu,
Like I said, you've proven you're not qualified to make such pronouncements. In addition, no one nowhere has proved @alsetalokin's video is faked. Stating that is only a product of your unqualified way of thinking which you mustn't impose on others. Especially, restrain from advocating an obvious idiot and a retard such as @Desertphile because you're just unqualified, which may change, and shouldn't stoop to the pathetic lows of the likes of @Desertphile. You don't belong there.
as much as i disagree with Desertphiles tactics, and illigocal arguments...
the fact that Al MAY HAVE produced an artificial video, and subsequent mayhem, of hundreds of people tryin to replicate the device, is becomming more of a likely situation.
lets look at the non-divisible ratio of RPM between rotor and stator.
8 magnetic (mono)poles vs 1 magnetic dipole.
Start from any position, and follow this sequence around the rotor, look at where the stator is.
There s not any starting position you can begin at, with that ratio of RPM, and provide 2 kicks per rotation. - complete waste of hours of calculating circles, to resolve this, but at present i had no other method, than to use the available information.
2 kicks are the minimum necessary for continuous rotation (negating losses).
to overcome these losses, AND increase speed of the rotor/stator(s), the must be at least THREE kicks in the directions of mutual rotation.
Anything less than this will subject your rotor and stator to negative repulsion forces during each rotation, and eventually bring the cycle to an end.
the maximum "kicks" per rotation with ths device is 4. which i have replicated 3 times, under varying magnetic flux densities
(and a 4th time using a 10-sided rotor, as per someones suggestion about pentagons occuring in nature)
With 4 equivalent "kicks", there are 4 equal/opposite "pulls" which balances out the system.
Thus: Al's motor must have 2 or 3 kicks, to be sustainable, or produce an acceleration.
This does not coincide with the ratio of RPMs, and the circumference of the two interacting magnetic fields.
I was hoping to have actual pictures of the rotor/stator interaction - but apparently the "stobe" effect prevents us from making an accurate video recording of this relationship. s any analsys of the original video from this perspective, is futile.
So i have worked this from 720 starting points around the circumference of circle, each 0.5-degrees apart, this was all done at the original (allgedly accurate) RPM reported directly from AL.
he stated that the RPM of the stator was 5316, and the rotor was at 1337. This was obtained from a diferent type of tachometer than the one in the video. He later came back and corrected these values to say 5360/1340 or 4:1 - which i have already proven does not work, because of the synchronization.
Digg made a video of a perfectly synchronized rotor/stator combo, to demonstrate this.
http://digg.com/general_sciences/Could_Alsetalokin_Have_Been_Right (http://digg.com/general_sciences/Could_Alsetalokin_Have_Been_Right)
So for my calculations i used the values Al gave, when he performed testing of the device.
5316/1337 - under the assumption that the portion % error from the tach was constant on both readings, and therefore the values represented are proportional to the real (+/- human error.)
There is no way to provide motive force with the reported ratios.
the best is an apparent pattern of 1 compression+"kick" about every 17 rotations.
which is would require roughly 900% energy input into the system to sustain rotation.
Therefore: I hereby conclude by the logicalities of Euclidian deduction - that one of the following MUST be true:
1) Al's video is a "fake" - or has an external powersource, unknown to the inventor, such as a near-by EMF
or
2) Al's proported RPM of either Stator, Rotor or Both has been Falsified or reported Innacurately.
That being said - We must look forward, If this device is even workable - we MUST know the proper proportion of RPM between rotor and stator.
-- This should be evident to those of you who have "matched" rotational speed of the original device attempting to achcieve "AGW" lock.
If i were to proceed at this point - it would have to be nothing less than a DIRECT CONVERSATION with AL himself, to determine which of the above statements is actually the case.
I have already pointed out 2 instances where AL intentionally fed replicators incorrect information. For reasons only HE knows. perhaps the incorrect RPM ratio was another of these, to throw us off? - there are reports that he wants to market his device...
but then again, if he was faking it, he would not know the proper ratio to being with.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 25, 2008, 03:22:51 PM
as much as i disagree with Desertphiles tactics, and illigocal arguments...
the fact that Al MAY HAVE produced an artificial video, and subsequent mayhem, of hundreds of people tryin to replicate the device, is becomming more of a likely situation.
lets look at the non-divisible ratio of RPM between rotor and stator.
8 magnetic poles vs 2 magnetic poles.
Start from any position, and follow this sequence around the rotor, look at where the stator is.
There s not any starting position you can begin at, with that ratio of RPM, and provide 2 kicks per rotation.
2 kicks are the minimum necessary for continuous rotation (negating losses).
to overcome these losses, AND increase speed of the rotor/stator(s), the must be at least THREE kicks in the directions of mutual rotation.
Anything less than this will subject your rotor and stator to negative repulsion forces during each rotation, and eventually bring the cycle to an end.
the maximum "kicks" per rotation with ths device is 4. which i have replicated 3 times, under varying magnetic flux densities
(and a 4th time using a 10-sided rotor, as per someones suggestion about pentagons occuring in nature)
With 4 equivalent "kicks", there are 4 equal/opposite "pulls" which balances out the system.
Thus: Al's motor must have 2 or 3 kicks, to be sustainable, or produce an acceleration.
This does not coincide with the ratio of RPMs, and the circumference of the two interacting magnetic fields.
I was hoping to have actual pictures of the rotor/stator interaction - but apparently the "stobe" effect prevents us from making an accurate video recording of this relationship.
So i have worked this octagon from 720 starting points around the circle, each 0.5-degrees apart,
There is no way to provide motive force with the reported ratios.
Therefore: I hereby conclude by the logicalities of Euclidian deduction - that one of the following MUST be true:
1) Al's video is a "fake" - or has an external powersource, unknown to the inventor, such as a near-by EMF
or
2) Al's proported RPM of either Stator, Rotor or Both has been Falsified or reported Innacurately.
That being said - We must look forward, If this device is even workable - we MUST know the proper proportion of RPM between rotor and stator.
-- This should be evident to those of you who have "matched" rotational speed of the original device attempting to achcieve "AGW" lock.
If i were to proceed at this point - it would have to be nothing less than a DIRECT CONVERSATION with AL himself, to determine which of the above statements is actually the case.
I have already pointed out 2 instances where AL intentionally fed replicators incorrect information. For reasons only HE knows. perhaps the incorrect RPM ratio was another of these, to throw us off? - there are reports that he wants to market his device...
but then again, if he was faking it, he would not know the proper ratio to being with.
sm0ky2,Al made a subtle observation concerning proper operation of his device:
there cannot be any stray metal near the device -- even tiny screwdrivers are bad.
I wonder how many replicators have followed this advice. Even with the TriForce I am constantly reminding myself to isolate the device.
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
@smOky2,
There's no doubt in my mind, and I mentioned that several times, that the rpm measurements in the first video are sloppy as sloppy can be. So, point 2) is settled, I think. Regarding point 1), aside from a blatant fraud, subtle unsuspected by @alsetalokin EM sources are to be excluded out of hand. If you disagree, demonstrate how this can happen. In saying that I also admit that no one, including the perpetrator, understands what's going on. That has been something he has hit upon accidentally and I bet you he isn't able to reproduce himself. Wonder if even talking to him would help.
I guess it's time to add my report...
I have a "standard" HDPE rotor - 144mm wide, 18mm thick, unknown weight, but assumed to be slightly overweight, given reports from others here. I am using N38 1/2x1/4 cylinder rotor mags. There is a 1/2" hole in the center of the rotor, and I have 2 1/2x3/16 bearings in there, with a stainless (non-magnetic) bolt as the axle.
The base is non-standard, an HDPE base.
Standard delrin stators, with the standard mags in them. For stator bearings I have 1/2x1/8x0.171 all steel bearings, and I am using a SHCS screw (top filed down about half height) to hold it down, with a small washer under the whole thing to give the slight clearance for rotation.
That's the setup, now the results...
I am only using a single stator, no dampers.
No acceleration to report, but as others have mentioned, this rig is interesting and seems like it wants to take off and go, but just won't.
It took me a while to get and recognize AGW, and I had to mark the stator half black to help in visually recognizing this. There is also a different sound to AGW that you will learn to recognize.
Once I get AGW, I can carefully speed up the rotor by hand. I have no tach to report RPMs with.
When I whip the rotor up by hand it often seems like I get a second or two or three of maintained RPM, but this is just going by sound. The rotor is completely silent, but the stators are very noisy when turning near the rotor.
I have several positions for the stators, and for me the closest (about 3-4mm) and the farthest (about 5-6mm) seem to work best. The closest position is the easiest to get initial AGW synch with, but it is the noisiest and has the most effect on the bearing. The farthest position can be harder to get initial synch with, but I can really spin up the rotor. With less effect on the bearing, when I really get a good fast spin, the bearing reaches a spot where it quiets down and the rig seems to coast for a few seconds before starting to slow down, but I need real measurements to know for sure.
Overall it is a very interesting rig, and I think my next step might be to drill some holes in the rotor to lighten it up (maybe get a scale first!)
Quote from: ken_nyus on February 25, 2008, 06:07:51 PM
I guess it's time to add my report...
The rotor is completely silent, but the stators are very noisy when turning near the rotor.
This is caused by the outward force vector on the stator shaft during the flux compression stage.
the bearing pushing against the screw, i havent found a good way to "cushion" this...
@smOky2,
The question is should it be cushioned? That clattering sound is one of the signature features of @alsetalokin's first video and supposedly an attribute of an accelerating rotor, don't you think?
I should also add that I tried one bearing, after soaking in Liquid Wrench. I felt the results were worse.
I also tried some bearings I have the same size but with ceramic balls, and these I could not get to work at all. They did not seem to be free enough.
Right now I have one steel bearing, lubricated the way it came from the factory that gives me pretty good AGW results.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 25, 2008, 08:11:31 PM
@smOky2,
The question is should it be cushioned? That clattering sound is one of the signature features of @alsetalokin's first video and supposedly an attribute of an accelerating rotor, don't you think?
@OMNI,
perhaps from the standpoint of a 'ratardation' of the stator - to cause an unsynchronized coupling
between the magnets. one of the many frictional factors that have been pondered throughout this thread. It just seems logical that the combination of all this friction would be working against us. ya know?
I do have to say that my rig does sound very much like Al's.
Along those lines I ran across this cleaned-up audio version of the original video today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV7CO8No-CE
This guy removed that hum all through the vid.
@ken_nyus,
That's strange, because, as you probably know, my experience with Liquid Wrench is just the opposite. As I was mentioning before, there's something about the interplay of the resistances (frictions) of the rotor and stators that we're missing that would provide the proper timing. There are not too many factors to try once one has some elementary conditions to change systematically the rotor weight and the mutual disposition of the fields. @Harvey was doing something in this respect, studying carious positions of the stator with respect to the rotor. Something along these lines has to be sought.
does that sound like an 'electric' hum?
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 25, 2008, 08:45:47 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 25, 2008, 08:11:31 PM
@smOky2,
The question is should it be cushioned? That clattering sound is one of the signature features of @alsetalokin's first video and supposedly an attribute of an accelerating rotor, don't you think?
@OMNI,
perhaps from the standpoint of a 'ratardation' of the stator - to cause an unsynchronized coupling
between the magnets. one of the many frictional factors that have been pondered throughout this thread. It just seems logical that the combination of all this friction would be working against us. ya know?
Seems that there has to be a retardation that bounces back and forth between the rotor and the stator (stators). Some kind of self-sustaining ping pong effect. Like the juggler, passing the rings from one hand to the other, never allowing them to fall on the ground. The juggler spends energy for this purpose. In this case we have force fields which are a given and they can assist each other in moving spatially the object they are acting upon periodically transferring the responsibility from one field to the other (if the timing happens to be right).
Quote from: Omnibus on February 25, 2008, 08:52:11 PM
@ken_nyus,
That's strange, because, as you probably know, my experience with Liquid Wrench is just the opposite...
I know omni, I read your reports and others who said the same. I was expecting even better results, but I found the opposite. I will eventually play with that bearing again and give it another chance.
I was also surprised that Liquid Wrench was not what I remembered it to be, last time I used Liquid Wrench (which might have been 20 years ago) I thought it was in a small squeeze oil can, but what I got at the hardware store was in a spray can, and was a very black solvent smelling stuff.
Did you re-oil the bearings after using the Liquid Wrench or leave them as-is after?
Quote from: ken_nyus on February 25, 2008, 09:21:57 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 25, 2008, 08:52:11 PM
@ken_nyus,
That's strange, because, as you probably know, my experience with Liquid Wrench is just the opposite...
I know omni, I read your reports and others who said the same. I was expecting even better results, but I found the opposite. I will eventually play with that bearing again and give it another chance.
I was also surprised that Liquid Wrench was not what I remembered it to be, last time I used Liquid Wrench (which might have been 20 years ago) I thought it was in a small squeeze oil can, but what I got at the hardware store was in a spray can, and was a very black solvent smelling stuff.
Did you re-oil the bearings after using the Liquid Wrench or leave them as-is after?
My Liquid Wrench is also in a spray bottle but is clear. Once you apply it it works very well. Then, if it stays for a whole (several hours) it somehow loses the effect and you have to apply it anew. I tried other lubricants but they worsened the effect. I'm talking about the stator. Applying Liquid Wrench to the rotor made things worse (AGW couldn't be achieved), so I had to reverse to a regular lubricant.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 25, 2008, 09:04:06 PM
Seems that there has to be a retardation that bounces back and forth between the rotor and the stator (stators). Some kind of self-sustaining ping pong effect. Like the juggler, passing the rings from one hand to the other, never allowing them to fall on the ground. The juggler spends energy for this purpose. In this case we have force fields which are a given and they can assist each other in moving spatially the object they are acting upon periodically transferring the responsibility from one field to the other (if the timing happens to be right).
Thats a lot like the "awakening" i had when i watched the stroboscopic video.....
"synchronized" is the entirely wrong concept for this device.
operationaly, it must be UN-synchronized.
But to what degree? - i think this is the key to unlocking its power.
once this is understood, the other minute factors -
:::like how many mm between your stator and your para-magneto-kenetic-junsen-flapers
will become irrelevant.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 25, 2008, 09:38:36 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 25, 2008, 09:04:06 PM
Seems that there has to be a retardation that bounces back and forth between the rotor and the stator (stators). Some kind of self-sustaining ping pong effect. Like the juggler, passing the rings from one hand to the other, never allowing them to fall on the ground. The juggler spends energy for this purpose. In this case we have force fields which are a given and they can assist each other in moving spatially the object they are acting upon periodically transferring the responsibility from one field to the other (if the timing happens to be right).
Thats a lot like the "awakening" i had when i watched the stroboscopic video.....
"synchronized" is the entirely wrong concept for this device.
operationaly, it must be UN-synchronized.
But to what degree? - i think this is the key to unlocking its power.
once this is understood, the other minute factors -
:::like how many mm between your stator and your para-magneto-kenetic-junsen-flapers
will become irrelevant.
Can't agree more. That's why we have to work towards understanding that un-synchronization and I'm listening to what you or @Grimer or @Harvey have to say in trying to put together some rational picture of what might be the nature of this effect. One small advance was maybe the proposal I put forth of the difference in the H'-B' loops, based on @Grimer's idea about the unconventional hysteresis. More is needed, though. I guess, if we could get a correct grasp of what is happening, that will aid us in conducting the experiments in the right direction. So far we're still shooting in the dark.
what is the square thing on the side of the rotor two magnets clockwise from the painted stripe. It looks like it just covers one poll of the magnet in that location and is it posible to be something sheilding the poll in that location?
Quote from: Arlo#1 on February 26, 2008, 01:21:40 AM
what is the square thing on the side of the rotor two magnets clockwise from the painted stripe. It looks like it just covers one poll of the magnet in that location and is it posible to be something sheilding the poll in that location?
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg238.imageshack.us%2Fimg238%2F9664%2Focpmmquestionxn3.jpg&hash=f98d4641397e974201208a342feaa35049a0cc8b)
I would venture a guess that that is used for the tachometer... but I could be wrong.
Quote from: JFK on February 26, 2008, 11:04:25 AM
Quote from: Arlo#1 on February 26, 2008, 01:21:40 AM
what is the square thing on the side of the rotor two magnets clockwise from the painted stripe. It looks like it just covers one poll of the magnet in that location and is it posible to be something sheilding the poll in that location?
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg238.imageshack.us%2Fimg238%2F9664%2Focpmmquestionxn3.jpg&hash=f98d4641397e974201208a342feaa35049a0cc8b)
I would venture a guess that that is used for the tachometer... but I could be wrong.
I was aondering that but what would be the reason for a tach mark when there is one on top. Maybe this is something that seilds the flux in that spot alowing the whole thing to work!
Quote from: Arlo#1 on February 26, 2008, 12:35:30 PM
Quote from: JFK on February 26, 2008, 11:04:25 AM
Quote from: Arlo#1 on February 26, 2008, 01:21:40 AM
what is the square thing on the side of the rotor two magnets clockwise from the painted stripe. It looks like it just covers one poll of the magnet in that location and is it posible to be something sheilding the poll in that location?
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg238.imageshack.us%2Fimg238%2F9664%2Focpmmquestionxn3.jpg&hash=f98d4641397e974201208a342feaa35049a0cc8b)
I would venture a guess that that is used for the tachometer... but I could be wrong.
I was aondering that but what would be the reason for a tach mark when there is one on top. Maybe this is something that seilds the flux in that spot alowing the whole thing to work!
I would tend to doubt that simply because for that to shield effectively it *probably* would require enough mass to throw the rotor severely out of balance as there does not appear to be a "counterweight" on the opposite side.
On the other hand, we never get to see the bottom of
that rotor for signs of removed material for the expressed purpose of balancing.
BTW, there is a spellcheck button on the posting page. ;)
Quote from: Omnibus on February 25, 2008, 10:17:25 PM
So far we're still shooting in the dark.
Is that why your camera can't take any pics of your replication. I think I can see clearly now what the problem might be.
Shooting in the dark whilst led down the garden path is a hazardous recreation. ::)
Yup, still lurkin
Dean
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 26, 2008, 05:17:29 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 25, 2008, 10:17:25 PM
So far we're still shooting in the dark.
Is that why your camera can't take any pics of your replication. I think I can see clearly now what the problem might be.
Shooting in the dark whilst led down the garden path is a hazardous recreation. ::)
Yup, still lurkin
Dean
Too funny.
I was searching Steorn for something else but I ran across this post from Al...
Quote
Oh, and the rotor is HDPE, the base is acrylic (perspex or plexiglas) and the stator bearing/magnet holders, and the rotor shaft adapter, are of Delrin.
The stators are held to the base in my unit with austenitic SS socket-head cap screws, #4-40, and a tiny washer for clearance (under the bearing).
(ETA I found plastic screws were too flexible for this purpose.)
I had to look up what "austenitic" means, and one thing it means is non-magnetic.
Anyone have a source for non-magnetic SHCS screws?
Now what I was really searching Steorn for was a reference to the table under Al's rig being a magnetic metal table, which I somehow thought of yesterday...
Quote
That desktop is steel, under the Formica, by the way. Magnets stick to it quite well.
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60132&page=11
Anyone give it a try on top of a steel table? I am going to try and find something to try this.
Quote from: ken_nyus on February 26, 2008, 08:49:58 PM
Now what I was really searching Steorn for was a reference to the table under Al's rig being a magnetic metal table, which I somehow thought of yesterday...
Quote
That desktop is steel, under the Formica, by the way. Magnets stick to it quite well.
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60132&page=11
Anyone give it a try on top of a steel table? I am going to try and find something to try this.
I've tried it but it doesn't do any good. It won't hurt to try it once again, though.
Quote from: ken_nyus on February 26, 2008, 08:49:58 PM
Now what I was really searching Steorn for was a reference to the table under Al's rig being a magnetic metal table, which I somehow thought of yesterday...
Quote
That desktop is steel, under the Formica, by the way. Magnets stick to it quite well.
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60132&page=11
Anyone give it a try on top of a steel table? I am going to try and find something to try this.
ken_nyus,The metal table seems odd, because Al also stated that stray metal needed to be removed from the work space. He mentioned specifically that a small screwdriver nearby the device adversely affected its operation.
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 26, 2008, 09:41:42 PM
Quote from: ken_nyus on February 26, 2008, 08:49:58 PM
Now what I was really searching Steorn for was a reference to the table under Al's rig being a magnetic metal table, which I somehow thought of yesterday...
Quote
That desktop is steel, under the Formica, by the way. Magnets stick to it quite well.
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60132&page=11
Anyone give it a try on top of a steel table? I am going to try and find something to try this.
ken_nyus,
The metal table seems odd, because Al also stated that stray metal needed to be removed from the work space. He mentioned specifically that a small screwdriver nearby the device adversely affected its operation.
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
more and more misinformation, or contradictions keep showing up...
Al has all sorts of "information", but when you pin him down on the spot, he suddenly
"doesnt know how the device works"..
i'll keep an eye on this thread, incase there are some new break-throughs, but i think i've learned enough about this device.
onto the next....
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 26, 2008, 09:53:03 PM
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 26, 2008, 09:41:42 PM
Quote from: ken_nyus on February 26, 2008, 08:49:58 PM
Now what I was really searching Steorn for was a reference to the table under Al's rig being a magnetic metal table, which I somehow thought of yesterday...
Quote
That desktop is steel, under the Formica, by the way. Magnets stick to it quite well.
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60132&page=11
Anyone give it a try on top of a steel table? I am going to try and find something to try this.
ken_nyus,
The metal table seems odd, because Al also stated that stray metal needed to be removed from the work space. He mentioned specifically that a small screwdriver nearby the device adversely affected its operation.
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
more and more misinformation, or contradictions keep showing up...
Al has all sorts of "information", but when you pin him down on the spot, he suddenly
"doesnt know how the device works"..
i'll keep an eye on this thread, incase there are some new break-throughs, but i think i've learned enough about this device.
onto the next....
ken_nyus,
I didn't mean to suggest that trying a metal table would be fruitless. I was observing that Al stated something to the contrary.
Having said that, if Al used a steel table (i.e. magnetic shunt) it's certainly worth a try. No harm no foul at this point. Didn't Al say the device worked in his car (i.e. steel on wheels)? I'm experimenting with shunts an couplers on the Tri-Force device and a steel plate might just do the trick.
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
Here's the link to YouTube where you can see the actual motor in motion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYcjjSfiNNE
Quote from: ANTI-GRAVITY on February 27, 2008, 04:06:34 AM
Here's the link to YouTube where you can see the actual motor in motion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYcjjSfiNNE
we saw this 182 posts ago :P
Here's a possible "solution" to the OC-MPMM mystery...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBygG9oN9gY ;)
Quote from: niente on February 27, 2008, 05:43:26 PM
Here's a possible "solution" to the OC-MPMM mystery...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBygG9oN9gY ;)
Stop posting this stupidity any more.
Has anyone figured out what that electric 'hum' sound is in the "audio-cleansed" version of AL's video?
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 27, 2008, 08:12:34 PM
Has anyone figured out what that electric 'hum' sound is in the "audio-cleansed" version of AL's video?
Hey Smoky,
Just to be clear, you are talking about a hum in the cleaned up video? while the rig is running or not running?
I haven't listened to that vid with headphones, but I don't hear any hum, just bearing noise when it is running.
I heard it just for an instant just before he spun it the first time...
@Yada, can you get a frequency reading just when Al states 4000 almost 5000 RPM from this vid ? - http://youtube.com/watch?v=lV7CO8No-CE
Just curious how the actual frequency relates to the bearing noise...
In theory it should have a peak at ~267hz . Is there also a peak near 533Hz ?
And here is a brightened and enhanced video with no mods done to the sound.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=E2Ck9xC4S44
Quote from: JFK on February 27, 2008, 09:27:42 PM
I heard it just for an instant just before he spun it the first time...
@Yada, can you get a frequency reading just when Al states 4000 almost 5000 RPM from this vid ? - http://youtube.com/watch?v=lV7CO8No-CE
Just curious how the actual frequency relates to the bearing noise...
In theory it should have a peak at ~267hz . Is there also a peak near 533Hz ?
And here is a brightened and enhanced video with no mods done to the sound.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=E2Ck9xC4S44
JFK,With one stator in AGW and the other two in GW, the first speed plateau was ~1700 RMP stator, ~425 RPM rotor, and produced a tone near 144 Hz. After Al stopped two of the stators, the device accelerated to ~4733 RPM stator, ~1180 RPM rotor, and produced a final tone of ~177 Hz. The delta is 3000 RPM/30 Hz. If there is a periodic noise eminating from the rotor, it occurs ever 0.42 revolution. (Note 0.42 = ~0.425 = ~3/8)
See these earlier posts:
... http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg76218.html#msg76218
... http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg76260.html#msg76260
Cheers :)
Yada ..
.
Quote from: ken_nyus on February 27, 2008, 08:52:02 PM
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 27, 2008, 08:12:34 PM
Has anyone figured out what that electric 'hum' sound is in the "audio-cleansed" version of AL's video?
Hey Smoky,
Just to be clear, you are talking about a hum in the cleaned up video? while the rig is running or not running?
I haven't listened to that vid with headphones, but I don't hear any hum, just bearing noise when it is running.
what im hearing is a continuous hum, even when the rotor stops, ive ran this on 3 different computers, speaker setups.
noone else hears this??
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 27, 2008, 10:29:49 PM
JFK,
With one stator in AGW and the other two in GW, the first speed plateau was ~1700 RMP stator, ~425 RPM rotor, and produced a tone near 144 Hz. After Al stopped two of the stators, the device accelerated to ~4733 RPM stator, ~1180 RPM rotor, and produced a final tone of ~177 Hz. The delta is 3000 RPM/30 Hz. If there is a periodic noise eminating from the rotor, it occurs ever 0.42 revolution. (Note 0.42 = ~0.425 = ~3/8)
See these earlier posts:
... http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg76218.html#msg76218
... http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg76260.html#msg76260
Cheers :)
Yada ..
.
Great, Thanks Yada. :)
This is what I was thinking....
If you take the fundamental frequency of 176.64 / 2 ( poles spinning and heaving the bearing balls ) * 60 seconds = 5299.2 RPM. ( stator )
Hmmm, could the tach be off by some 500 RPM ?
Do you understang what I am trying to say and Is that remotely possible in your opinion ?
If it is, would that not verify that work is being done in both repel and attract modes of the stator ?
The 3/8 number is also extremely interesting.... why every 3/8 ?
5299.2 / 2 * .425 = 1126.08.... pretty close to 1180.
- just trying to determine the origin of the fundemental noise. :-\
Oh, I totally messed up my math in the previous post so please disregard the numbers there.... and this is probably garbage also.
Quote from: JFK on February 27, 2008, 11:56:46 PM
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 27, 2008, 10:29:49 PM
JFK,
With one stator in AGW and the other two in GW, the first speed plateau was ~1700 RMP stator, ~425 RPM rotor, and produced a tone near 144 Hz. After Al stopped two of the stators, the device accelerated to ~4733 RPM stator, ~1180 RPM rotor, and produced a final tone of ~177 Hz. The delta is 3000 RPM/30 Hz. If there is a periodic noise emanating from the rotor, it occurs ever 0.42 revolution. (Note 0.42 = ~0.425 = ~3/8)
See these earlier posts:
... http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg76218.html#msg76218
... http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg76260.html#msg76260
Cheers :)
Yada ..
.
Great, Thanks Yada. :)
This is what I was thinking....
If you take the fundamental frequency of 176.64 / 2 ( poles spinning and heaving the bearing balls ) * 60 seconds = 5299.2 RPM. ( stator )
Hmmm, could the tach be off by some 500 RPM ?
Do you understang what I am trying to say and Is that remotely possible in your opinion ?
If it is, would that not verify that work is being done in both repel and attract modes of the stator ?
The 3/8 number is also extremely interesting.... why every 3/8 ?
5299.2 / 2 * .425 = 1126.08.... pretty close to 1180.
- just trying to determine the origin of the fundemental noise. :-\
Oh, I totally messed up my math in the previous post so please disregard the numbers there.... and this is probably garbage also.
JFK,Al had problems obtaining accurate tach readings, but the first reading at 1700 RPM appears more reliable than the second reading of 4733, because IMHO the device had not settled down to a second plateau.
As for a 500 RPM error -- I can't say. I do get your point regarding a factor of two for repel/attract.
As for the value "3/8," in fact I derived from the final rotor speed of 1180.
Cheers :)
Yadfa..
.
so,. i was opening up an old-school SeaGate this evening (for the neodyiums of course!
.. and low-and -behold, what did i find?
is this?? i think,. YES ,. Yes i think it is! why what is a Magneto-Kenetic-Junsen-Damper doing inside of a Harddrive??
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 27, 2008, 11:14:36 PM
what im hearing is a continuous hum, even when the rotor stops, ive ran this on 3 different computers, speaker setups.
noone else hears this??
I hear it smoky with the volume all the way up. Must be what's left of what that guy was trying to filter out.
Quote from: ken_nyus on February 29, 2008, 08:55:46 AM
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 27, 2008, 11:14:36 PM
what im hearing is a continuous hum, even when the rotor stops, ive ran this on 3 different computers, speaker setups.
noone else hears this??
I hear it smoky with the volume all the way up. Must be what's left of what that guy was trying to filter out.
or the motor w/ spinning magnets under the table that we dont see.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 29, 2008, 10:18:51 AM
Quote from: ken_nyus on February 29, 2008, 08:55:46 AM
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 27, 2008, 11:14:36 PM
what im hearing is a continuous hum, even when the rotor stops, ive ran this on 3 different computers, speaker setups.
noone else hears this??
I hear it smoky with the volume all the way up. Must be what's left of what that guy was trying to filter out.
or the motor w/ spinning magnets under the table that we dont see.
If that's the case it's outright fraud which @alsetalokin seemed to deny although I don't remember him explicitly doing so.
Would be interesting to demonstrate how spinning magnets under the table can cause the acceleration we see in the first video. That would be some very elaborate fraud, it seems.
Remember that table is a formica covered metal table, which I assume would rule out any field beneath passing through.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 27, 2008, 11:14:36 PM
Quote from: ken_nyus on February 27, 2008, 08:52:02 PM
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 27, 2008, 08:12:34 PM
Has anyone figured out what that electric 'hum' sound is in the "audio-cleansed" version of AL's video?
Hey Smoky,
Just to be clear, you are talking about a hum in the cleaned up video? while the rig is running or not running?
I haven't listened to that vid with headphones, but I don't hear any hum, just bearing noise when it is running.
what im hearing is a continuous hum, even when the rotor stops, ive ran this on 3 different computers, speaker setups.
noone else hears this??
sm0ky2,There's a faint 100 Hz tone in the baseline, but it could be an artifact of the "audio cleaning" or compression to YouTube format -- over and over again and again.
A spectral analysis of the "cleaned audio" video shows something very similar to the first video:
LO/HI tones
=========
... 1st plateau @ 1700 RPM: LO tone @ 168 Hz, HI tone @ 829 Hz
... 2nd plateau @ 4733 RPM: LO tone @ 177 Hz, HI tone @ 872 Hz
HI/LO Harmonics:
==============
... 829/168 = 4.935
... 872/177 = 4.927
Note that the HI tone overwhelms the LO tone at the 1st plateau. However, this reverses at the 2nd plateau when the LO tone dominates the HI tone. During acceleration, the amplitude of the LO tone increases dramatically, and becomes the primary sound that you hear. It's a very "guttural" tone, and I'd love to know where it's coming from. It reminds me of a monk chanting "Om."
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 29, 2008, 10:44:44 AM
Would be interesting to demonstrate how spinning magnets under the table can cause the acceleration we see in the first video. That would be some very elaborate fraud, it seems.
I managed to run the video through my bullshit filter ... unfortunately nothing made it out the other side.
Dean :D
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 29, 2008, 03:26:28 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on February 29, 2008, 10:44:44 AM
Would be interesting to demonstrate how spinning magnets under the table can cause the acceleration we see in the first video. That would be some very elaborate fraud, it seems.
I managed to run the video through my bullshit filter ... unfortunately nothing made it out the other side.
Dean :D
dean_mcgowan,Try changing your bandwidth. Perhaps a "birdshit" or "horseshit" filter would work better. ;D
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 26, 2008, 09:41:42 PM
Quote from: ken_nyus on February 26, 2008, 08:49:58 PM
Now what I was really searching Steorn for was a reference to the table under Al's rig being a magnetic metal table, which I somehow thought of yesterday...
Quote
That desktop is steel, under the Formica, by the way. Magnets stick to it quite well.
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=60132&page=11
Anyone give it a try on top of a steel table? I am going to try and find something to try this.
ken_nyus,
The metal table seems odd, because Al also stated that stray metal needed to be removed from the work space. He mentioned specifically that a small screwdriver nearby the device adversely affected its operation.
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
If he's lying about the Magnet Motor , why wouldn't he lie about the table?
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 29, 2008, 02:51:16 PM
There's a faint 100 Hz tone in the baseline, but it could be an artifact of the "audio cleaning" or compression to YouTube format -- over and over again and again.
A spectral analysis of the "cleaned audio" video shows something very similar to the first video:
LO/HI tones
=========
... 1st plateau @ 1700 RPM: LO tone @ 168 Hz, HI tone @ 829 Hz
... 2nd plateau @ 4733 RPM: LO tone @ 177 Hz, HI tone @ 872 Hz
HI/LO Harmonics:
==============
... 829/168 = 4.935
... 872/177 = 4.927
Note that the HI tone overwhelms the LO tone at the 1st plateau. However, this reverses at the 2nd plateau when the LO tone dominates the HI tone. During acceleration, the amplitude of the LO tone increases dramatically, and becomes the primary sound that you hear. It's a very "guttural" tone, and I'd love to know where it's coming from. It reminds me of a monk chanting "Om."
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
4.9 is too low to hear just with our human ears, its higher than that. perhaps it is from the audio filter, or conversion process.. i cant assume this to be true or false. only that there is a 'hum'..
if he did have a hidden motor to operate the device, i think where it is, or how he hid it from view is irrelevant. i just said "table" because thats the only thing you see in the video is the table. you dont see whats to the right, it could be something like in that Tape-Head video..
im not implying that he did in-fact 'fake' this device,
but in lue of the fact that noone has sucessfuly replicated it, including AL himself
as well as the inconsistencies in AL's statements,- im not prepared to rule out that option just yet.
unfortunately the original device got "trashed" - so how this worked if it did,. we may never know.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 29, 2008, 05:15:01 PM
Quote from: Yadaraf on February 29, 2008, 02:51:16 PM
There's a faint 100 Hz tone in the baseline, but it could be an artifact of the "audio cleaning" or compression to YouTube format -- over and over again and again.
A spectral analysis of the "cleaned audio" video shows something very similar to the first video:
LO/HI tones
=========
... 1st plateau @ 1700 RPM: LO tone @ 168 Hz, HI tone @ 829 Hz
... 2nd plateau @ 4733 RPM: LO tone @ 177 Hz, HI tone @ 872 Hz
HI/LO Harmonics:
==============
... 829/168 = 4.935
... 872/177 = 4.927
Note that the HI tone overwhelms the LO tone at the 1st plateau. However, this reverses at the 2nd plateau when the LO tone dominates the HI tone. During acceleration, the amplitude of the LO tone increases dramatically, and becomes the primary sound that you hear. It's a very "guttural" tone, and I'd love to know where it's coming from. It reminds me of a monk chanting "Om."
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
4.9 is too low to hear just with our human ears, its higher than that. perhaps it is from the audio filter, or conversion process.. i cant assume this to be true or false. only that there is a 'hum'..
if he did have a hidden motor to operate the device, i think where it is, or how he hid it from view is irrelevant. i just said "table" because thats the only thing you see in the video is the table. you dont see whats to the right, it could be something like in that Tape-Head video..
im not implying that he did in-fact 'fake' this device,
but in lue of the fact that noone has sucessfuly replicated it, including AL himself
as well as the inconsistencies in AL's statements,- im not prepared to rule out that option just yet.
unfortunately the original device got "trashed" - so how this worked if it did,. we may never know.
sm0ky2,4.9 is the ratio between LO and HI tones -- approximately "5". Thus, IMHO the HI tone appears to be a 5th harmonic of the LO tone.
The final LO tone that you hear is around 177 Hz. 8)
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
It's been a while since I checked up on this thread. I presume from the silence in my inbox and at PESWiki on this topic that no one else has yet been able to replicate any form of acceleration or speed maintenance on this design. If it is otherwise, please drop me a line at sterlingda {at} pureenergysystems.com. I've glanced through the messages up to p. 174 on this thread, but I'm not going to try to keep up any more.
It looks to me like this motor is another dud. The original may have worked, but it is so finicky that even if a couple of people have been able to replicate some extent of acceleration, it is so temperamental that it will take loads of R&D before it turns into something useful.
Sterling
Quote from: sterlinga on February 29, 2008, 08:19:09 PM
It's been a while since I checked up on this thread. I presume from the silence in my inbox and at PESWiki on this topic that no one else has yet been able to replicate any form of acceleration or speed maintenance on this design. If it is otherwise, please drop me a line at sterlingda {at} pureenergysystems.com. I've glanced through the messages up to p. 174 on this thread, but I'm not going to try to keep up any more.
It looks to me like this motor is another dud. The original may have worked, but it is so finicky that even if a couple of people have been able to replicate some extent of acceleration, it is so temperamental that it will take loads of R&D before it turns into something useful.
Sterling
I don't know... it's a frustration for sure, there seems to be a missing ingredient and so far no one but Al knows for sure what it might be...
I think that until we have some more information most have moved on to other things like the triforce gate project on CLaNZeR's site...
I'm experimenting with spinning "tops" made up of spherical .5"neos with .25x.5 cylindricals (like the rotor mags) stuck on either side (-o-) and placing similar configurations nearby to see what affect can be induced on to the spinning configuration... the goal being sustainability or better, but I have nothing to report so far... just having some fun...
Quote from: geodan on March 01, 2008, 03:18:00 PM
I think that until we have some more information most have moved on to other things like the triforce gate project on CLaNZeR's site...
I'm experimenting with spinning "tops" made up of spherical .5"neos with .25x.5 cylindricals (like the rotor mags) stuck on either side (-o-) and placing similar configurations nearby to see what affect can be induced on to the spinning configuration... the goal being sustainability or better, but I have nothing to report so far... just having some fun...
Goin for the room-temperature Meizner effect?
They seek him here,
They seek him there,
Those spinners seek him everywhere
Well he is certainly more forthcoming than McCarthy.
Alsetalokin's latest post from Fizzx:
Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 91
Location: Sol III
Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, much water under the bridge, I see. I'm glad everyone is keeping themselves entertained--but this "identity" confusion and impostoring has got to stop.
First of all, it has come to my attention that various people may be canvassing employers via email and telephone calls trying to locate and identify me. It should be needless to say that this is double-plus-ungood. I'm asking here for this please to stop. It serves absolutely no useful purpose and could be quite destructive in the long run.
Secondly, I am not, nor have I ever been, Carmine Corrente aka "AlSetalokin" the fractal artist and religious nutjob. The moderators and administrators of the various sites should be able to provide some data to support this statement. And it really should be obvious to anyone who cares to investigate: His fractal art is much more sophisticated than my puny attempts were; my ideas on religion and philosophy are much more sophisticated than his are; there's no way he was Jesuit-educated, etc. Frank Grimer owes me (and probably Carmine) a big apology on this one, for calling me a liar because I told him, long ago, that I am not that person. By the way, Gaby (fractured express) asked me in a whisper on the Steorn forum if I was that AlSetalokin long before Frank did, even before the OCMPMM, iirc.
Thirdly, neither am I the "alsetalokin" that has recently placed a bet on betsgowild. I don't gamble, even for play money, but if I did, I would have bet that someone would indeed have replicated exactly what I showed in the first video, long before now. I am actually surprised that no one has. The important parameters are not really that critical. (For example, I posted a quick measurement, taken with a dial caliper, of 144 mm for a rotor diameter. Soon someone had converted that measurement into Imperial units to the ten-thousandth of an inch. Then I suppose others tried to machine their rotors to that accuracy. No offense, but that's just silly.) The only hint I can give here is for people to drop their preconceptions and theories and approach the matter from a truly scientific viewpoint, with a little background study and meditation on the logic of replication and investigation of extraordinary claims.
Fourth, I am also not the "alseta1okin" who posted a garbled message on overunity.com. I have never and will never post on that forum.
I don't really know how to authenticate my posts, short of publishing my PGP 128-bit public key and then including an encrypted message in every post. I'm not willing to go to that trouble. So, all things considered, we'll just let chaos rule, and I'll just sit back and watch while all the other "alsetalokins" stir things up. But really, it is rather amazing how people pick and choose what they will believe, based on little or no real factual input from anywhere. Isn't it?
_________________
"Abandon hope, all ye who enter here..."
Quote from: sm0ky2 on March 01, 2008, 03:43:09 PM
Quote from: geodan on March 01, 2008, 03:18:00 PM
I think that until we have some more information most have moved on to other things like the triforce gate project on CLaNZeR's site...
I'm experimenting with spinning "tops" made up of spherical .5"neos with .25x.5 cylindricals (like the rotor mags) stuck on either side (-o-) and placing similar configurations nearby to see what affect can be induced on to the spinning configuration... the goal being sustainability or better, but I have nothing to report so far... just having some fun...
Goin for the room-temperature Meizner effect?
I'm not familiar with that...
Quote from: geodan on March 01, 2008, 04:50:23 PM
Quote from: sm0ky2 on March 01, 2008, 03:43:09 PM
Quote from: geodan on March 01, 2008, 03:18:00 PM
I think that until we have some more information most have moved on to other things like the triforce gate project on CLaNZeR's site...
I'm experimenting with spinning "tops" made up of spherical .5"neos with .25x.5 cylindricals (like the rotor mags) stuck on either side (-o-) and placing similar configurations nearby to see what affect can be induced on to the spinning configuration... the goal being sustainability or better, but I have nothing to report so far... just having some fun...
Goin for the room-temperature Meizner effect?
I'm not familiar with that...
The Meissner effect (or Meissner-Ochsenfeld effect) is the effect by which a weak magnetic field decays rapidly to zero in the interior of a superconductor. The distance to which the field is active is known as the London penetration depth. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meissner effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meissner%20effect)
Quote from: Grimer on March 01, 2008, 05:29:55 PM
Quote from: geodan on March 01, 2008, 04:50:23 PM
Quote from: sm0ky2 on March 01, 2008, 03:43:09 PM
Quote from: geodan on March 01, 2008, 03:18:00 PM
I think that until we have some more information most have moved on to other things like the triforce gate project on CLaNZeR's site...
I'm experimenting with spinning "tops" made up of spherical .5"neos with .25x.5 cylindricals (like the rotor mags) stuck on either side (-o-) and placing similar configurations nearby to see what affect can be induced on to the spinning configuration... the goal being sustainability or better, but I have nothing to report so far... just having some fun...
Goin for the room-temperature Meizner effect?
I'm not familiar with that...
The Meissner effect (or Meissner-Ochsenfeld effect) is the effect by which a weak magnetic field decays rapidly to zero in the interior of a superconductor. The distance to which the field is active is known as the London penetration depth. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meissner effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meissner%20effect)
oh yeah sure! the 'ol Meissner effecto, how could I forget... sure, that's what I'm going for... ;-)
Quote from: geodan on March 01, 2008, 05:42:08 PM
Quote from: Grimer on March 01, 2008, 05:29:55 PM
Quote from: geodan on March 01, 2008, 04:50:23 PM
Quote from: sm0ky2 on March 01, 2008, 03:43:09 PM
Quote from: geodan on March 01, 2008, 03:18:00 PM
I think that until we have some more information most have moved on to other things like the triforce gate project on CLaNZeR's site...
I'm experimenting with spinning "tops" made up of spherical .5"neos with .25x.5 cylindricals (like the rotor mags) stuck on either side (-o-) and placing similar configurations nearby to see what affect can be induced on to the spinning configuration... the goal being sustainability or better, but I have nothing to report so far... just having some fun...
Goin for the room-temperature Meizner effect?
I'm not familiar with that...
The Meissner effect (or Meissner-Ochsenfeld effect) is the effect by which a weak magnetic field decays rapidly to zero in the interior of a superconductor. The distance to which the field is active is known as the London penetration depth. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meissner effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meissner%20effect)
oh yeah sure! the 'ol Meissner effecto, how could I forget... sure, that's what I'm going for... ;-)
the fun trick with a meissner core (frozen via liquid nitrogen), is that you can 'float' a neo sphere on it and it will spin eternally, or until the nitrogen evaporates..
Quote from: sm0ky2 on March 01, 2008, 11:16:05 PM
Quote from: geodan on March 01, 2008, 05:42:08 PM
Quote from: Grimer on March 01, 2008, 05:29:55 PM
Quote from: geodan on March 01, 2008, 04:50:23 PM
Quote from: sm0ky2 on March 01, 2008, 03:43:09 PM
Quote from: geodan on March 01, 2008, 03:18:00 PM
I think that until we have some more information most have moved on to other things like the triforce gate project on CLaNZeR's site...
I'm experimenting with spinning "tops" made up of spherical .5"neos with .25x.5 cylindricals (like the rotor mags) stuck on either side (-o-) and placing similar configurations nearby to see what affect can be induced on to the spinning configuration... the goal being sustainability or better, but I have nothing to report so far... just having some fun...
Goin for the room-temperature Meizner effect?
I'm not familiar with that...
The Meissner effect (or Meissner-Ochsenfeld effect) is the effect by which a weak magnetic field decays rapidly to zero in the interior of a superconductor. The distance to which the field is active is known as the London penetration depth. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meissner effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meissner%20effect)
oh yeah sure! the 'ol Meissner effecto, how could I forget... sure, that's what I'm going for... ;-)
the fun trick with a meissner core (frozen via liquid nitrogen), is that you can 'float' a neo sphere on it and it will spin eternally, or until the nitrogen evaporates..
oh, now I get it... room temp meissner effect... now it's really funny!! :-)
@All,
Funny, @alsetalokin continues to insist that in his first video he hasn?t done anything misleading or untrue. This means that all of us here and elsewhere are a bunch of untalented replicators. Who can tell that this isn?t so, cryptic way of @alsetalokin divulging the essence of his contraption notwithstanding? What makes an impression, though, is that he still continues to connect the performance of the device with something he completely has no clue about?the science behind it, if what we see in the video really happens. He still doesn?t understand that no one needs his opinion as to whether or not a device that can run on its own for seven hours is OU. Show that the device runs for seven hours and leave it to the scientists to sort out is it OU or not. Don?t push yourself where you don?t belong. Also, notice his narrow understanding of what hoax means. So, according to him, because he hasn?t solicited investments as Steorn have done and because it occurs to him that a device working for seven hours isn?t OU, he hasn?t committed a hoax. This fellow should learn the meaning of words because it is obvious that he understands the meaning of words such as hoax as much as he understands science. To be a good technician (we haven?t seen a working replica yet so we still can?t assert even that with respect to him) and a good scientist are two entirely different states of the individual the latter requiring much more than @alsetalokin imagines.
Hi Omnibus and all.
if this alsetalokin guy would be real,
why didn?t he show more
videos with it showing in bright light and from
all side, so one could see, that it was no scam ?
I can not understand how many people fell for
this scam.
By now he could have posted at least a douzen working
videos, if this device would be real...
Quote from: hartiberlin on March 04, 2008, 05:03:18 PM
Hi Omnibus and all.
is this alsetalokin guy would be real,
why didn?t he show more
videos with it showing in bright light and from
all side, so one could see, that it was no scam ?
I can not understand how many people fell for
this scam.
By now he could have posted at least a douzen working
videos, if this device would be real...
Can't agree more. Let's see where this mediocre game @alsetalokin is playing will lead him to.
@ÃÂll,
Obviously, this clown @alsetalokin won't stop to blabber anything else, avoiding the essential stuff that would explain why no one so far has been able to reproduce the effect shown in his first video. Not only that he is of mediocre quality as a scientist but has no shame to be so impudent in his delusional self-importance, not realizing that he will always be in peoples' feet if he doesn't do the right thing, start reasoning correctly and address the issues at hand. Mentioning Lissajou figures and how good @Harvey is (divide and conquer) doesn't cut the mustard. @Harvey hasn't reproduced the effect either, despite the Lissajou cycle. How unfortunate it is that we have to deal with someone with psychological problems rather than focus on the essence of things.
Hey, buddy, hoaxing isn't always connected with profiting from something. It has a broader meaning. Until someone reproduces your result you will always be perceived as a hoaxer. You're already out of time so better hurry up with your explanation why everyone but you is so untalented to reproduce a seemingly simple effect.
This moron has no limits. What a despicable behavior. The fact that you have "continually tried to get people to believe that it is NOT an overunity device" does not disqualify you as a hoaxer, you moron. You could never understand that point which is obviously too subtle for your little brain. The hoax is that you claim acceleration and seven hour run of a device without external energy source (you have continuously led everybody to believe that that's the case) while no one else, despite the heroic efforts, hasn't been able to reproduce it. That's the hoax.
It's too late now to say that you "have been trying to get people to believe, not that "something false is real", but rather that something false is false". So, now, you're changing the story. What is it, hoaxer? What it it, mean little twerp, that you were hiding from us leading us to believe you're showing a real effect? What an idiot.
Did you forget to take your prozac Omni ?
:P
Look at this. He continues with the nonsense. @loreman asked him how he did it and all he explained is up to the AGW. Ending with "... and so forth". But, the gist is in this "so forth". So, was there acceleration without external energy input? Was there a seven hour run without external energy input? If there was, how come you have led people to believe that "something false is false"? If there were acceleration and seven hour run without external energy input that by no means can be called false. Unless, there hasn't been such acceleration and run (you put fraudulently a concealed energy source) and now you're too embarrassed to admit it.
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 07:02:47 PM
Did you forget to take your prozac Omni ?
:P
You will stop defending obvious morons and possible hoaxers.
What i dont get is how/why he included the MKJD.....
this component doesnt make any sense in his device - because he seemed to know precisely what it did....
how did he even know such a thing existed?, and that it could be used to do what he was doing...??? he seems too stupid to come up with the idea on his own and try it.
since first reading this post, ive found MKJDs in several commercial devices that utilize a rotating magnetic field- dating back decades.
perhaps he saw it used somewhere, and 'borrowed' it
then made up his own name for it....
makes it seem too elaborate to be a hoax,
but at the same time - blows the lid off of the "i dont know how it works " statement.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 07:08:41 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 07:02:47 PM
Did you forget to take your prozac Omni ?
:P
You will stop defending obvious morons and possible hoaxers.
< rolls eyes >
Have you read your recent posts ?
Should I defend you ?... If so Why ?
WE have yet to see your attempt at replication.
The door swings both ways Omni.
Cheers. ;)
@All,
This person (@alsetalokin) should be held accountable for what he?s doing to the good people trying to do research in this area.
Read again what he?s stating in the same breath:
QuoteBut doesn't a "hoax" involve making some kind of claim that is misleading or untrue?
I haven't done that.
And then
QuoteI have been trying to get people to believe, not that "something false is real", but rather that something false is false ?
So, he?s been trying to get people to believe that there is acceleration without external energy input and that the device runs for seven hours without external energy input and in this way he hasn?t been making a claim that is misleading or untrue?he really believes, to this day, that the acceleration and the seven hour run without external energy is true. And yet, at the same time, he?s been trying to get people to believe that something false is false, that is, that said acceleration and seven hour run without external energy input is in fact false.
And, that isn?t called hoax? Go figure ?
What a nasty clown.
Something has to be done for the good people trying to carry out research in this area to get relief from such dishonest nothings. He?s not the only one, I?ve commented on that already, but he?s one of the nastiest. As a first measure, now that his dishonesty has been uncovered and documented Steorn and Fizzx, for one, should impose a permanent ban on him in their forums, if they really have any dignity left at all. Like I said, his time is running out fast and I?m afraid even if he does do the right thing and come clean about the sorry manipulations he?s been involved, he will still fade away in disgrace.
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 09:17:58 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 07:08:41 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 07:02:47 PM
Did you forget to take your prozac Omni ?
:P
You will stop defending obvious morons and possible hoaxers.
< rolls eyes >
Have you read your recent posts ?
Should I defend you ?... If so Why ?
WE have yet to see your attempt at replication.
The door swings both ways Omni.
Cheers. ;)
Because you're too stupid, I'll repeat. You will stop defending obvious morons and possible hoaxers such as @alsetalokin.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on March 04, 2008, 09:06:45 PM
What i dont get is how/why he included the MKJD.....
this component doesnt make any sense in his device - because he seemed to know precisely what it did....
how did he even know such a thing existed?, and that it could be used to do what he was doing...??? he seems too stupid to come up with the idea on his own and try it.
since first reading this post, ive found MKJDs in several commercial devices that utilize a rotating magnetic field- dating back decades.
perhaps he saw it used somewhere, and 'borrowed' it
then made up his own name for it....
makes it seem too elaborate to be a hoax,
but at the same time - blows the lid off of the "i dont know how it works " statement.
That @alsetalokin is stupid I've found out long before this saga. That was during the discussions of Finsrud's device and the violation of CoE by Taisnierius' device. This is a person with a very limited scientific background who has been given access to some equipment and, I won't exclude that possibility, has been probably encouraged to punish the wide eyed believers by leading them to seek green cheese on the moon. Pathetic, isn't it?
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 09:27:53 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 09:17:58 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 07:08:41 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 07:02:47 PM
Did you forget to take your prozac Omni ?
:P
You will stop defending obvious morons and possible hoaxers.
< rolls eyes >
Have you read your recent posts ?
Should I defend you ?... If so Why ?
WE have yet to see your attempt at replication.
The door swings both ways Omni.
Cheers. ;)
Because you're too stupid, I'll repeat. You will stop defending obvious morons and possible hoaxers such as @alsetalokin.
Perhaps you should switch to Zoloft. ;)
Wow this thread is still going on? Hasn't this been proven to not work already?
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 10:19:50 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 09:27:53 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 09:17:58 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 07:08:41 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 07:02:47 PM
Did you forget to take your prozac Omni ?
:P
You will stop defending obvious morons and possible hoaxers.
< rolls eyes >
Have you read your recent posts ?
Should I defend you ?... If so Why ?
WE have yet to see your attempt at replication.
The door swings both ways Omni.
Cheers. ;)
Because you're too stupid, I'll repeat. You will stop defending obvious morons and possible hoaxers such as @alsetalokin.
Perhaps you should switch to Zoloft. ;)
Don't clutter the thread with nonsense.
I wonder where @oak might be to defend his fallen idol?
There are these elements here and there that are bumping, like little blind puppies, into the legs of people trying to do serious work.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 10:24:02 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 10:19:50 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 09:27:53 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 09:17:58 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 07:08:41 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 07:02:47 PM
Did you forget to take your prozac Omni ?
:P
You will stop defending obvious morons and possible hoaxers.
< rolls eyes >
Have you read your recent posts ?
Should I defend you ?... If so Why ?
WE have yet to see your attempt at replication.
The door swings both ways Omni.
Cheers. ;)
Because you're too stupid, I'll repeat. You will stop defending obvious morons and possible hoaxers such as @alsetalokin.
Perhaps you should switch to Zoloft. ;)
Don't clutter the thread with nonsense.
I wonder where @oak might be to defend his fallen idol?
There are these elements here and there that are bumping, like little blind puppies, into the legs of people trying to do serious work.
I don't get it....
You yourself have declared this OCPMM a fraud.
What "serious" work are you now trying to accomplish ?
If anyone has cluttered these last 2 pages it is you with your ranting.
Cheers. ;)
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 10:30:14 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 10:24:02 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 10:19:50 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 09:27:53 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 09:17:58 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 07:08:41 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 07:02:47 PM
Did you forget to take your prozac Omni ?
:P
You will stop defending obvious morons and possible hoaxers.
< rolls eyes >
Have you read your recent posts ?
Should I defend you ?... If so Why ?
WE have yet to see your attempt at replication.
The door swings both ways Omni.
Cheers. ;)
Because you're too stupid, I'll repeat. You will stop defending obvious morons and possible hoaxers such as @alsetalokin.
Perhaps you should switch to Zoloft. ;)
Don't clutter the thread with nonsense.
I wonder where @oak might be to defend his fallen idol?
There are these elements here and there that are bumping, like little blind puppies, into the legs of people trying to do serious work.
I don't get it....
You yourself have declared this OCPMM a fraud.
What "serious" work are you now trying to accomplish ?
If anyone has cluttered these last 2 pages it is you with your ranting.
Cheers. ;)
I know you're stupid, therefore, I have to repeat it especially for you: don't clutter the thread with crap.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 10:32:45 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 10:30:14 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 10:24:02 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 10:19:50 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 09:27:53 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 09:17:58 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 07:08:41 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 07:02:47 PM
Did you forget to take your prozac Omni ?
:P
You will stop defending obvious morons and possible hoaxers.
< rolls eyes >
Have you read your recent posts ?
Should I defend you ?... If so Why ?
WE have yet to see your attempt at replication.
The door swings both ways Omni.
Cheers. ;)
Because you're too stupid, I'll repeat. You will stop defending obvious morons and possible hoaxers such as @alsetalokin.
Perhaps you should switch to Zoloft. ;)
Don't clutter the thread with nonsense.
I wonder where @oak might be to defend his fallen idol?
There are these elements here and there that are bumping, like little blind puppies, into the legs of people trying to do serious work.
I don't get it....
You yourself have declared this OCPMM a fraud.
What "serious" work are you now trying to accomplish ?
If anyone has cluttered these last 2 pages it is you with your ranting.
Cheers. ;)
I know you're stupid, therefore, I have to repeat it especially for you: don't clutter the thread with crap.
Well my dearest Omnibus, If I am stupid you my friend are a retarded moron.... and ALL that implies.
Of course, a sign of stupidity which @alsetalokin has demonstrated is that he has agreed to play that role of a lackey in a scheme directed by hidden puppeteers. There are more than one willing puppeteer such as Randis of the world or obscure figures such as Robert Park from the American Physical Society who for lack of talents to contribute positively in science are waging decades long war with what their incompetent minds perceive as nuts. The sad thing is that they will wipe their hands with @alsetalokins of the world and will move on, leaving him behind to lick his wounds like a prostitute is disposed of after use. Of course, if @alsetalokin had any integrity he would come out and explain loud and clear who arranged such a seemingly elaborate, but ultimately stupid, scheme to teach people a lesson they don't need. On the contrary, Robert Parks and Randis are to be taught a lesson. Robert Park more than Randi because Park has pretenses of a scientist while the old man is simply misguided, although maybe well-meaning. Of course, @alsetalokin will not come out straight to expose his pimps. The battle they are waging, however, is hopeless because more and more people are getting involved in this, violation of CoE is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt and all they can do is seek psychologically unstable individuals such as the one we're discussing to pinch here and pinch there. What a sad occupation.
And this relates to the unique observed effects of the OCPMM how ?
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 10:49:56 PM
And this relates to the unique observed effects of the OCPMM how ?
Now, because, as was found out, you're stupid and therefore have to be spoon fed, I'll mention it especially for you: this relates to the following:http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg80434.html#msg80434 .
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 10:54:55 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 10:49:56 PM
And this relates to the unique observed effects of the OCPMM how ?
Now, because, as was found out, you're stupid and therefore have to be spoon fed, I'll mention it especially for you: this relates to the following:http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg80434.html#msg80434 .
Here, I will type this question slowly this time.
This relates to the
unique observed effects of the OCPMM how ?
Call me stupid one more time and I will report you.
Cheers. ;)
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 11:00:09 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 10:54:55 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 10:49:56 PM
And this relates to the unique observed effects of the OCPMM how ?
Now, because, as was found out, you're stupid and therefore have to be spoon fed, I'll mention it especially for you: this relates to the following:http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg80434.html#msg80434 .
Here, I will type this question slowly this time.
This relates to the unique observed effects of the OCPMM how ?
Call me stupid one more time and I will report you.
Cheers. ;)
Report me, you stupid moron, defender of idiots such as @alsetalokin. You have contributed nothing to this area of research, you're just a lurker as are several others who are poking around for having nothing else to do, annoying the people carrying out serious discussion. You deserve no answers. Go away.
I wonder where the rest of the advocates are. Where is, for instance, @Big Oil Rep or @oak or @genesis to defend this obvious idiot @alsetalokin? Come out, let's hear what you have to say in his defense, stupid morons.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 11:05:01 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 11:00:09 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 04, 2008, 10:54:55 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 10:49:56 PM
And this relates to the unique observed effects of the OCPMM how ?
Now, because, as was found out, you're stupid and therefore have to be spoon fed, I'll mention it especially for you: this relates to the following:http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg80434.html#msg80434 .
Here, I will type this question slowly this time.
This relates to the unique observed effects of the OCPMM how ?
Call me stupid one more time and I will report you.
Cheers. ;)
Report me, you stupid moron, defender of idiots such as @alsetalokin. You have contributed nothing to this area of research, you're just a lurker as are several others who are poking around for having nothing else to do, annoying the people carrying out serious discussion. You deserve no answers. Go away.
From where I sit the same can be said of you....
I won't go away.
I have reported you.
Have a nice night.
Where is @crank? Where is @magnetrix? Where are all these to defend their crony?
Now it's tough, isn't it. You have to face it, though.
@JFK,
You won't go away because you're impudent.
As far as from where you sit you cannot say the same for me. I have contributed substantially to this area proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that CoE can be violated. What have you done? Nothing. Just imposing your impudence on the forum.
The idiot @alsetalokin must be condemned loud and clear and I will not tolerate any attempt for advocacy, as @JFK is trying amateurishly to do.
What @alsetalokin has done to the community is the worst offense it can ever experience. It's worse than cursing and using expletives. He should be shown clearly that he is in a disrepute and the sooner forums ban (by IP) him and the like, the better for the progress of the questions at hand.
So why don't you go to a forum in which Al participates in to chastise him ?
Personally I have learned a lot from this thread... From Clanzer and Yada mostly, and I have learned absolutely nothing from your rants.
Even if the OCPMM is a hoax as you proclaim it to be, there WERE unique effects learned of and need to be studied here which may or may not be applicable to future endeavours.
Your shortsightness totally amazes me.... unless of course my first impression of you was correct... that you are merely a know it all troll.
Like I said, I've made one of the most important contributions in this field. I have proved for the first time in a scientifically rigorous way that CoE can be violated. This is a discovery with far-reaching consequences which assures without a doubt that a magnetic motor can be built in principle. That discovery nullifies assertions of not well qualified people such as @alsetalokin that OU is impossible.
As it concerns the progress regarding the engineering problem of building a magnetic motor, sadly, now we are at the same point as we have been a decade ago. I should mention, however, that I got involved in this for only about two years, at that only due to the mentioned discovery for CoE violation. This is the only thing that is keeping my interest in this field and quite rightfully so. During these two years I've seen a lot of dishonesty, games, finagling, stupidity, arrogant incompetence and so on. Like I said, @alsetalokin's is one of the worst and I strongly suspect foul play from certain organizations with vested interests..
Understand, before independent parties can reproduce a self-starting device making full turns on its own absolutely no success can be claimed neither can it have any educational value. All the different devices display problems of exactly same character which are very well known by now. I know, science is cruel. Therefore, the arrogant approach of a superstar @alsetalokin displays is completely out of whack. Unfortunately, there are people who are falling for that but, as I said, I'll take care this to happen as rarely as possible.
As for why I don't participate in the fizzx forum where @alsetalokin writes the main reason is that I find this present forum as the best for discussing these matters with the most enthusiastic and capable participant (with some exceptions, how else). I'd like to stay focused and not spread out too thin, not following who's responding where and when. As for @CLaNZeR, @Yadaraf, @Craigy, @klicUK, @Jdo300, @tao and many others, I can't agree more. Some of them are superb researchers and this gives me hope, knowing that CoE can be violated without a doubt, that we'll see that soon clothed in working engineering solution of a magnetic motor.
Quoteneither can it have any educational value .
I totally disagree with that statement. You have learned absolutely nothing from the AGW cyclic ( for lack of a better term ) rotation of the stator ?
Edit - Apparently you can't bold text in quotes here. :\
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 11:55:29 PM
QuoteUnderstand, before independent parties can reproduce a self-starting device making full turns on its own absolutely no success can be claimed neither can it have any educational value .
I totally disagree with the bolded part of that statement. You have learned absolutely nothing from the AGW cyclic ( for lack of a better term ) rotation of the stator ?
He doesnt learn, he only teaches. He knows everything there is already.
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 11:55:29 PM
QuoteUnderstand, before independent parties can reproduce a self-starting device making full turns on its own absolutely no success can be claimed neither can it have any educational value .
I totally disagree with the bolded part of that statement. You have learned absolutely nothing from the AGW cyclic ( for lack of a better term ) rotation of the stator ?
Correct. I have learned absolutely nothing from the AGW rotation of the stator. This was claimed to be the "discovery" which unlocked the effect of acceleration (and that's the effect we're talking about, not AGW). Alas, not so.
I suspect @alsetalokin had reached the point of the AGW which had seemed credible enough to perpetrate the scam and then he did something for the device to appear as accelerating. I think other people are involved in this scam too, the puppeteers I mentioned before who now are wiping their hands with him.
I'm very curious, though, what was that "something" that was done to the device that made it appear as if it's accelerating. We have to try to reproduce that part of the scam, to close the book.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on March 04, 2008, 11:58:55 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 04, 2008, 11:55:29 PM
QuoteUnderstand, before independent parties can reproduce a self-starting device making full turns on its own absolutely no success can be claimed neither can it have any educational value .
I totally disagree with the bolded part of that statement. You have learned absolutely nothing from the AGW cyclic ( for lack of a better term ) rotation of the stator ?
He doesnt learn, he only teaches. He knows everything there is already.
Not everything. However, what I know for sure I won't budge.
So in other words you cannot think outside of your self made box ?
Quote from: JFK on March 05, 2008, 12:07:25 AM
So in other words you cannot think outside of your self made box ?
What is that supposed to mean? I'm a scientist and I apply the scientific method in a systematic way. Won't go out of this box if the systematic scientific method is the box you imply.
one must learn to differentiate between theory and observation.
when the two conflict, the former must be modified.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on March 05, 2008, 01:16:02 AM
one must learn to differentiate between theory and observation.
when the two conflict, the former must be modified.
So, what's the new thing you're saying here? We all agree on that.
Can this MPMM be incorporate into the small vertical axis wind turbine? I am asking this because my area is at a low wind speed area. Is not strong enough to only depend on wind power to turn the turbine. By theory, can this MPMM heto turn the turbine to generate green energy at low wind area?
What would be the point of having a wind turbine besides the OC MPMM if it had worked.
None att all. Just let the MPMM power you generator and don't ever build any wind turbine or other energy device.
But their lies the problem. Nobody have been able to replicate the OC MPMM and they probably never will,
because the video was probably faked and the OC MPMM will stay in a nice dream.
Watches yet another magnet motor slip into obscurity to be added to the useless inventions museum shelves.
Quote from: RunningBare on March 05, 2008, 10:42:30 AM
Watches yet another magnet motor slip into obscurity to be added to the useless inventions museum shelves.
How come useless invention? A device accelerating without external energy input and working on its own for seven hours isn't a useless invention. If you disagree show how the hoax with this particular device was put together. Only then you can make pronouncements such as the above.
Omnibus,
I hope that you hear this, even though it may go against your thought process. Watching this thread for a while, it seems that you speak to others with as though you are superior to them. No one likes that. You post to others when it is not necessary and phrase yourself like you are the higher power and the thread police. If you are as intelligent as you believe you are, you should see that people respond to you negatively because of your poor social skills. If you really and truly want others to put you on the pedestal, you should look at yourself to see why there is so much badmouth around you. Of course, if you are a genious, then it is probably everybody else out there and not you. If you don't care that you tick people off, then you should remove the "s" at the end of your name and replace it with "tt". You will always meet resistance with resistance and there will never be any OU. Your self proclaimed authority is meaningless unless there is respect, which is something you seem not to be able to understand or don't care about. The latter would make you less than everyone else.
OK, now it's your turn to trash me. Of course, if you don't respond in any way, that would make me wrong.
Now, you listen to me carefully. Science is not about social skills, neither is it about politics. Science is about truth. As I?ve said many times, I. for one, have no friends but the truth. The likes of you should make this somehow sink in. I will continue to defend truth with even more vigor despite the fact that it may sound as a demonstration of superiority to mediocrities such as you.
Your post is uncalled for and if you continue cluttering the forum with such nonsense you will receive the same portion of words you don?t want to hear as any of these who do not know their place.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 05, 2008, 11:16:54 AM
Quote from: RunningBare on March 05, 2008, 10:42:30 AM
Watches yet another magnet motor slip into obscurity to be added to the useless inventions museum shelves.
How come useless invention? A device accelerating without external energy input and working on its own for seven hours isn't a useless invention. If you disagree show how the hoax with this particular device was put together. Only then you can make pronouncements such as the above.
Don't be redicolous!, I've rigorously proven how this can be faked, it is not my fault if your uneducated mind cannot grasp it, now stop cluttering the thread with your nonsence.
;D
Quote from: RunningBare on March 05, 2008, 10:22:51 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 05, 2008, 11:16:54 AM
Quote from: RunningBare on March 05, 2008, 10:42:30 AM
Watches yet another magnet motor slip into obscurity to be added to the useless inventions museum shelves.
How come useless invention? A device accelerating without external energy input and working on its own for seven hours isn't a useless invention. If you disagree show how the hoax with this particular device was put together. Only then you can make pronouncements such as the above.
Don't be redicolous!, I've rigorously proven how this can be faked, it is not my fault if your uneducated mind cannot grasp it, now stop cluttering the thread with your nonsence.
;D
No you haven't, you uneducated moron. You haven't proved how this particular device can be faked. Don't lie, you little nobody.
You, uneducated impostor, are another one of those feeding the ego of the hoaxer @alsetalokin. The likes of you should be banned from every forum discussing science.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 05, 2008, 10:01:54 PM
Science is not about social skills, neither is it about politics.
I'd bet Nikola Tesla would argue that point with you if he were alive.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 05, 2008, 10:01:54 PM
Science is about truth. As I?ve said many times, I. for one, have no friends but the truth.
Gee, I can't imagine why.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 05, 2008, 10:01:54 PM
The likes of you should make this somehow sink in. I will continue to defend truth with even more vigor despite the fact that it may sound as a demonstration of superiority to mediocrities such as you.
Actually you sound like a cross between Archie Bunker and Frazier.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 05, 2008, 10:01:54 PM
Your post is uncalled for and if you continue cluttering the forum with such nonsense you will receive the same portion of words you don?t want to hear as any of these who do not know their place.
HAH, It's the truth.... Now you are saying the truth is uncalled for ?
I wish Clanzer or Yada would return.... Your recent posts are totally lacking any scientific and intellectual thought.
Quote from: JFK on March 05, 2008, 11:05:36 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 05, 2008, 10:01:54 PM
Science is not about social skills, neither is it about politics.
I'd bet Nikola Tesla would argue that point with you if he were alive.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 05, 2008, 10:01:54 PM
Science is about truth. As I?ve said many times, I. for one, have no friends but the truth.
Gee, I can't imagine why.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 05, 2008, 10:01:54 PM
The likes of you should make this somehow sink in. I will continue to defend truth with even more vigor despite the fact that it may sound as a demonstration of superiority to mediocrities such as you.
Actually you sound like a cross between Archie Bunker and Frazier.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 05, 2008, 10:01:54 PM
Your post is uncalled for and if you continue cluttering the forum with such nonsense you will receive the same portion of words you don?t want to hear as any of these who do not know their place.
HAH, It's the truth.... Now you are saying the truth is uncalled for ?
I wish Clanzer or Yada would return.... Your recent posts are totally lacking any scientific and intellectual thought.
Whou are you to judge? You don't know your place.
QuoteQuote from: Omnibus on Today at 03:01:54 AM
Science is not about social skills, neither is it about politics.
QuoteI'd bet Nikola Tesla would argue that point with you if he were alive.
If science were about social skills then Nikola Tesla is a miserable failure.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 05, 2008, 11:09:38 PM
If science were about social skills then Nikola Tesla is a miserable failure.
As are you... I was referring to the political part. ;)
Quote from: JFK on March 05, 2008, 11:14:52 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 05, 2008, 11:09:38 PM
If science were about social skills then Nikola Tesla is a miserable failure.
As are you... I was referring to the political part. ;)
Although it's an honor to be compared to Nikola Tesla, it shouldn't be coming from you. Who are you to judge? You don't know your place.
The ONLY comparison is the social skills, of which you are a miserable failure at.
I am someone who came here with an open mind to learn about this OCPMM... In the time I have spent here I have also observed your behaviour as I do with people on the other boards I am active on, and have been active on for the past 10 years... And have been moding and admining various boards for the past 4 years.
You fit the MO of the ones which eventually get banned at ALL the boards I visit... So much for who I am to judge.
I know my place very well thank you... Unfortunately it is you who doesn't.
Although many times one can hear scientists complaining about the peer-review system which is a dictatorship of the competent over the mediocre one really wonders if something like this shouldn't be introduced in forums discussing science. I, for one, have always been for freedom of expression and haven't been very happy about the peer-review system but lately I've seen that I've been mostly wrong about such unbridled freedom and I'm having second thoughts. How else. You can see mediocrities such as @Running Bare literally cluttering the discussions with their utter nonsense. Those who don't believe me, go visit the Steorn forum. It's literally unbearable to sift through tons of completely insubstantial, stupid, silly, incoherent, arrogant, self-important and add whatever else you wish blabber of these mediocrities, having nothing to do with the discussion at hand or impudently imposing their uneducated point of view.
Probably, they should also have an outlet but there should be a limit such that it won't hurt the progress of the essence of the discussion. I'm not far from the though that some of these clowns are deliberately implanted by the powers that want to see this field destroyed. Most of those, don't even have the qualities to be used for that purpose, though, and are doing it on their own for having nothing else to do.
Of course, a separate question is how to deal with the numerous pseudo-discoverers which are taking advantage of the freedom of the net to annoy the people seeking to discuss science with their uneducated dreams and fantasies.
Quote from: JFK on March 05, 2008, 11:37:18 PM
The ONLY comparison is the social skills, of which you are a miserable failure at.
I am someone who came here with an open mind to learn about this OCPMM... In the time I have spent here I have also observed your behaviour as I do with people on the other boards I am active on, and have been active on for the past 10 years... And have been moding and admining various boards for the past 4 years.
You fit the MO of the ones which eventually get banned at ALL the boards I visit... So much for who I am to judge.
I know my place very well thank you... Unfortunately it is you who doesn't.
No, you don't know your place at all. The above proves it.
Well, spell it out for me intelligent one.
Quote from: JFK on March 05, 2008, 11:45:38 PM
Well, spell it out for me intelligent one.
You must not pass judgments on scientific matters. You may blabber (but not in this forum) about social skills, politics, rock music and whatever else you wish. But not science. If you think you're learning something, fine. Keep it to yourself. There is hardly anyone interested in your personal enhancement.
Oh... You mean like this.-
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg211.imageshack.us%2Fimg211%2F2695%2Fomnibusqy2.jpg&hash=7fe417b3f3fc0930886d9154666a7b97865718c8)
Got it. ;)
@JFK
He is not getting it nor he ever will. No matter what you say, if it is not in his limited ability to see the truth about how us subhumans relate, then he can never be cured. When he said, "you don't know your place", then that proves that he feels superior. It is kind of fun to watch him squirm though. His professionalism is in direct opposition to the proportion of his ego. It is so sad to see this happen to such great man.
Quote from: icanbeatbob on March 06, 2008, 12:10:29 AM
@JFK
He is not getting it nor he ever will. No matter what you say, if it is not in his limited ability to see the truth about how us subhumans relate, then he can never be cured. When he said, "you don't know your place", then that proves that he feels superior. It is kind of fun to watch him squirm though. His professionalism is in direct opposition to the proportion of his ego. It is so sad to see this happen to such great man.
The overwhelming infestation of the discussions by unqualified people due to the lack of any kind of peer review is not limited to one or two persons and is reaching unbearable proportions threatening to suffocate any discussion. This is what I'm getting and you're another one to confirm it. This suffocation, deliberate or not, is a form of censorship and should be vigorously confronted.
insubstantial, stupid, silly, incoherent, arrogant, self-important?
Anybody else make a connection?
Omnibus,
Please stop... No one at this point cares about your smot... If you babble on endlessly about how other individuals clutter threads, look at what your doing... YOU dig your self into this. You want intellectual stimulation through the wrong manner. I'm getting sick of the clutter you build up and lead through the threads. I'm an info hunter, and it sucks when people like you stick your trolls hands into threads I want to read and absorb to learn. I question how the admin can ignore your spiteful behaviour. >:(
Quote from: HopeForHumanity on March 06, 2008, 12:24:04 AM
insubstantial, stupid, silly, incoherent, arrogant, self-important?
Anybody else make a connection?
Omnibus,
Please stop... No one at this point cares about your smot... If you babble on endlessly about how other individuals clutter threads, look at what your doing... YOU dig your self into this. You want intellectual stimulation through the wrong manner. I'm getting sick of the clutter you build up and lead through the threads. I'm an info hunter, and it sucks when people like you stick your trolls hands into threads I want to read and absorb to learn. I question how the admin can ignore your spiteful behaviour. >:(
Here's another one ...
I must be perfectly clear with you, only uneducated minds will not care about "my smot". What I've done is the only scientifically sound analysis as to why anybody should ever be interested in the matters concerning violation of CoE and overunity. So far there has been absolutely no progress whatsoever in this matter other than the analysis of Taisnierius' device conclusively proving violation of CoE. Thus, if you want to learn something, I've provided it. There is absolutely nothing else to be learned. Everything else is a repetition in different variants of well known mistakes and dead ends. Besides, there is hardly anyone interested in whether or not you want to learn. Keep it to yourself, don't clutter the thread with your personal stuff
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 12:32:57 AM
Quote from: HopeForHumanity on March 06, 2008, 12:24:04 AM
insubstantial, stupid, silly, incoherent, arrogant, self-important?
Anybody else make a connection?
Omnibus,
Please stop... No one at this point cares about your smot... If you babble on endlessly about how other individuals clutter threads, look at what your doing... YOU dig your self into this. You want intellectual stimulation through the wrong manner. I'm getting sick of the clutter you build up and lead through the threads. I'm an info hunter, and it sucks when people like you stick your trolls hands into threads I want to read and absorb to learn. I question how the admin can ignore your spiteful behaviour. >:(
Here's another one ...
I must be perfectly clear with you, only uneducated minds will not care about "my smot". What I've done is the only scientifically sound analysis as to why anybody should ever be interested in the matters concerning violation of CoE and overunity. So far there has been absolutely no progress whatsoever in this matter other than the analysis of Taisnierius' device conclusively proving violation of CoE. Thus, if you want to learn something, I've provided it. There is absolutely nothing else to be learned. Everything else is a repetition in different variants of well known mistakes and dead ends. Besides, there is hardly anyone interested in whether or not you want to learn. Keep it to yourself, don't clutter the thread with your personal stuff
How about get the hell out of the thread. Does that reach your limited brain? Can you comprehend yourself? We as humans are slow to understand. This includes you. Stop cluttering this thread. I've already understood CoE being violated. Virtual particles do it all the time. However scientists make an exception as they claim there existence is as short as possible, thus unable to be used. But that doesn't change, because time is just a unit of measurement. It's how you look at the picture omnibus. I say you should end the argument, or you could continue and make your self look like a hypocrite. Again stop cluttering the thread, hypocrite. ::)
Ok Omnibus,
You have proved your point. I must have missed it earlier. I shouldn't have disrespected you. I apologize. Keep up the good fight.
Quote from: HopeForHumanity on March 06, 2008, 12:45:22 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 12:32:57 AM
Quote from: HopeForHumanity on March 06, 2008, 12:24:04 AM
insubstantial, stupid, silly, incoherent, arrogant, self-important?
Anybody else make a connection?
Omnibus,
Please stop... No one at this point cares about your smot... If you babble on endlessly about how other individuals clutter threads, look at what your doing... YOU dig your self into this. You want intellectual stimulation through the wrong manner. I'm getting sick of the clutter you build up and lead through the threads. I'm an info hunter, and it sucks when people like you stick your trolls hands into threads I want to read and absorb to learn. I question how the admin can ignore your spiteful behaviour. >:(
Here's another one ...
I must be perfectly clear with you, only uneducated minds will not care about "my smot". What I've done is the only scientifically sound analysis as to why anybody should ever be interested in the matters concerning violation of CoE and overunity. So far there has been absolutely no progress whatsoever in this matter other than the analysis of Taisnierius' device conclusively proving violation of CoE. Thus, if you want to learn something, I've provided it. There is absolutely nothing else to be learned. Everything else is a repetition in different variants of well known mistakes and dead ends. Besides, there is hardly anyone interested in whether or not you want to learn. Keep it to yourself, don't clutter the thread with your personal stuff
How about get the hell out of the thread. Does that reach your limited brain? Can you comprehend yourself? We as humans are slow to understand. This includes you. Stop cluttering this thread. I've already understood CoE being violated. Virtual particles do it all the time. However scientists make an exception as they claim there existence is as short as possible, thus unable to be used. But that doesn't change, because time is just a unit of measurement. It's how you look at the picture omnibus. I say you should end the argument, or you could continue and make your self look like a hypocrite. Again stop cluttering the thread, hypocrite. ::)
With the above you demonstrate that you haven't understood anything related to violation of CoE and therefore should be the last person to drive people out of the thread discussing exactly this. Don't clutter the thread with your incompetence.
It is EXTREAMLY difficult to say hoax or not hoax when you consider what chaos theory has shown us. In case it has been forgotten, changes so small that they are not measurable can make significant differences to the resulting patterns generated. The good old butterfly making hurricanes idea. We have no idea what tolerance magnetic positioning/ magnetic strengths/ friction / weight / temperature / humidity / location the device does or does not work too.
In other words chaos theory basically says all this bickering is pointless as without knowledge of the precision needed and what the key elements are for it to work nothing in this can be proved.
In the original vid the demonstrator picks the running device up and then puts it back, there is no change in the speed in that period. The OCMPPM would be acting like a gyroscope and resist movement when being handled in the manor shown in the video.
@Polymatrix
A big 10-4
Quote from: PolyMatrix on March 06, 2008, 01:22:30 AM
It is EXTREAMLY difficult to say hoax or not hoax when you consider what chaos theory has shown us. In case it has been forgotten, changes so small that they are not measurable can make significant differences to the resulting patterns generated. The good old butterfly making hurricanes idea. We have no idea what tolerance magnetic positioning/ magnetic strengths/ friction / weight / temperature / humidity / location the device does or does not work too.
In other words chaos theory basically says all this bickering is pointless as without knowledge of the precision needed and what the key elements are for it to work nothing in this can be proved.
In the original vid the demonstrator picks the running device up and then puts it back, there is no change in the speed in that period. The OCMPPM would be acting like a gyroscope and resist movement when being handled in the manor shown in the video.
I don't deny that there may be a remote possibility that there may be an effect and that's not because of chaos theory. That made me reverse my initial rejection of that presentation. That said, the way the constructor is playing with people is disgusting and only shows that he is a despicable human being. It's one thing to be a private company like Steorn and place known limits to the information you divulge and quite another to appear you're willing to discuss it freely and then play with people's interest and devotion. Quite disgusting, isn't it?
Studying of the details applying a proper methodology was discussed before and you're quite right about that. That may still happen but that's different from the problem with the behavior of a scam artist we're dealing with.
Now, suppose everything is OK and someone has indeed observed an effect, will it be justified for him to start cat and mouse games with people interested in reproducing it? Would it be decent for him to show a video of the effect while at the same time claiming that all he has done is to show that something false is false?
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 01:16:41 AM
Quote from: HopeForHumanity on March 06, 2008, 12:45:22 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 12:32:57 AM
Quote from: HopeForHumanity on March 06, 2008, 12:24:04 AM
insubstantial, stupid, silly, incoherent, arrogant, self-important?
Anybody else make a connection?
Omnibus,
Please stop... No one at this point cares about your smot... If you babble on endlessly about how other individuals clutter threads, look at what your doing... YOU dig your self into this. You want intellectual stimulation through the wrong manner. I'm getting sick of the clutter you build up and lead through the threads. I'm an info hunter, and it sucks when people like you stick your trolls hands into threads I want to read and absorb to learn. I question how the admin can ignore your spiteful behaviour. >:(
Here's another one ...
I must be perfectly clear with you, only uneducated minds will not care about "my smot". What I've done is the only scientifically sound analysis as to why anybody should ever be interested in the matters concerning violation of CoE and overunity. So far there has been absolutely no progress whatsoever in this matter other than the analysis of Taisnierius' device conclusively proving violation of CoE. Thus, if you want to learn something, I've provided it. There is absolutely nothing else to be learned. Everything else is a repetition in different variants of well known mistakes and dead ends. Besides, there is hardly anyone interested in whether or not you want to learn. Keep it to yourself, don't clutter the thread with your personal stuff
How about get the hell out of the thread. Does that reach your limited brain? Can you comprehend yourself? We as humans are slow to understand. This includes you. Stop cluttering this thread. I've already understood CoE being violated. Virtual particles do it all the time. However scientists make an exception as they claim there existence is as short as possible, thus unable to be used. But that doesn't change, because time is just a unit of measurement. It's how you look at the picture omnibus. I say you should end the argument, or you could continue and make your self look like a hypocrite. Again stop cluttering the thread, hypocrite. ::)
With the above you demonstrate that you haven't understood anything related to violation of CoE and therefore should be the last person to drive people out of the thread discussing exactly this. Don't clutter the thread with your incompetence.
Fool! You have just proven your LARGEST mistake. This thread has nothing to do with discussing CoE. This thread is about the magnetic motor on youtube. Replicate it or not. Admin, if you are reading this post, he has clearly admited his intentions are not to discuss the correct topic. I ask you to warn him of his attempt to derail this thread. Omnibus, i'm not discussing CoE with you. If you want to do that, create your own thread. This threads intentions have been clearly printed. Unless you fully replicate his device to every measurement, you are creating assumptions of the motors energy status.
There is no way to account for the actions or behaviour of a paranoid mind.
Quote from: PolyMatrix on March 06, 2008, 01:48:11 AM
There is no way to account for the actions or behaviour of a paranoid mind.
Now thats funny, I don't care who you are.
Quote from: icanbeatbob on March 06, 2008, 01:57:18 AM
Quote from: PolyMatrix on March 06, 2008, 01:48:11 AM
There is no way to account for the actions or behaviour of a paranoid mind.
Now thats funny, I don't care who you are.
Yep - most humour is fundamentally based on the concept of humiliation, so you think its funny as it seems to humiliate.
Quote from: PolyMatrix on March 06, 2008, 02:04:31 AM
Quote from: icanbeatbob on March 06, 2008, 01:57:18 AM
Quote from: PolyMatrix on March 06, 2008, 01:48:11 AM
There is no way to account for the actions or behaviour of a paranoid mind.
Now thats funny, I don't care who you are.
Yep - most humour is fundamentally based on the concept of humiliation, so you think its funny as it seems to humiliate.
No, I am not quite that deep. I never try to humiliate, but sometimes maybe a bit too sarcastic with my remarks. I responded from my gut, which doesn't think as well as my brain. As an engineer, I think differently.
Quote from: HopeForHumanity on March 06, 2008, 01:46:34 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 01:16:41 AM
Quote from: HopeForHumanity on March 06, 2008, 12:45:22 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 12:32:57 AM
Quote from: HopeForHumanity on March 06, 2008, 12:24:04 AM
insubstantial, stupid, silly, incoherent, arrogant, self-important?
Anybody else make a connection?
Omnibus,
Please stop... No one at this point cares about your smot... If you babble on endlessly about how other individuals clutter threads, look at what your doing... YOU dig your self into this. You want intellectual stimulation through the wrong manner. I'm getting sick of the clutter you build up and lead through the threads. I'm an info hunter, and it sucks when people like you stick your trolls hands into threads I want to read and absorb to learn. I question how the admin can ignore your spiteful behaviour. >:(
Here's another one ...
I must be perfectly clear with you, only uneducated minds will not care about "my smot". What I've done is the only scientifically sound analysis as to why anybody should ever be interested in the matters concerning violation of CoE and overunity. So far there has been absolutely no progress whatsoever in this matter other than the analysis of Taisnierius' device conclusively proving violation of CoE. Thus, if you want to learn something, I've provided it. There is absolutely nothing else to be learned. Everything else is a repetition in different variants of well known mistakes and dead ends. Besides, there is hardly anyone interested in whether or not you want to learn. Keep it to yourself, don't clutter the thread with your personal stuff
How about get the hell out of the thread. Does that reach your limited brain? Can you comprehend yourself? We as humans are slow to understand. This includes you. Stop cluttering this thread. I've already understood CoE being violated. Virtual particles do it all the time. However scientists make an exception as they claim there existence is as short as possible, thus unable to be used. But that doesn't change, because time is just a unit of measurement. It's how you look at the picture omnibus. I say you should end the argument, or you could continue and make your self look like a hypocrite. Again stop cluttering the thread, hypocrite. ::)
With the above you demonstrate that you haven't understood anything related to violation of CoE and therefore should be the last person to drive people out of the thread discussing exactly this. Don't clutter the thread with your incompetence.
Fool! You have just proven your LARGEST mistake. This thread has nothing to do with discussing CoE. This thread is about the magnetic motor on youtube. Replicate it or not. Admin, if you are reading this post, he has clearly admited his intentions are not to discuss the correct topic. I ask you to warn him of his attempt to derail this thread. Omnibus, i'm not discussing CoE with you. If you want to do that, create your own thread. This threads intentions have been clearly printed. Unless you fully replicate his device to every measurement, you are creating assumptions of the motors energy status.
I don't care about your personal opinions and what you want to discuss. The essence of any discussion involving magnetic motors such as this one is fundamentally tied with discussing violation of CoE. You're incompetent if don't know this.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 02:29:50 AM
Quote from: HopeForHumanity on March 06, 2008, 01:46:34 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 01:16:41 AM
Quote from: HopeForHumanity on March 06, 2008, 12:45:22 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 12:32:57 AM
Quote from: HopeForHumanity on March 06, 2008, 12:24:04 AM
insubstantial, stupid, silly, incoherent, arrogant, self-important?
Anybody else make a connection?
Omnibus,
Please stop... No one at this point cares about your smot... If you babble on endlessly about how other individuals clutter threads, look at what your doing... YOU dig your self into this. You want intellectual stimulation through the wrong manner. I'm getting sick of the clutter you build up and lead through the threads. I'm an info hunter, and it sucks when people like you stick your trolls hands into threads I want to read and absorb to learn. I question how the admin can ignore your spiteful behaviour. >:(
Here's another one ...
I must be perfectly clear with you, only uneducated minds will not care about "my smot". What I've done is the only scientifically sound analysis as to why anybody should ever be interested in the matters concerning violation of CoE and overunity. So far there has been absolutely no progress whatsoever in this matter other than the analysis of Taisnierius' device conclusively proving violation of CoE. Thus, if you want to learn something, I've provided it. There is absolutely nothing else to be learned. Everything else is a repetition in different variants of well known mistakes and dead ends. Besides, there is hardly anyone interested in whether or not you want to learn. Keep it to yourself, don't clutter the thread with your personal stuff
How about get the hell out of the thread. Does that reach your limited brain? Can you comprehend yourself? We as humans are slow to understand. This includes you. Stop cluttering this thread. I've already understood CoE being violated. Virtual particles do it all the time. However scientists make an exception as they claim there existence is as short as possible, thus unable to be used. But that doesn't change, because time is just a unit of measurement. It's how you look at the picture omnibus. I say you should end the argument, or you could continue and make your self look like a hypocrite. Again stop cluttering the thread, hypocrite. ::)
With the above you demonstrate that you haven't understood anything related to violation of CoE and therefore should be the last person to drive people out of the thread discussing exactly this. Don't clutter the thread with your incompetence.
Fool! You have just proven your LARGEST mistake. This thread has nothing to do with discussing CoE. This thread is about the magnetic motor on youtube. Replicate it or not. Admin, if you are reading this post, he has clearly admited his intentions are not to discuss the correct topic. I ask you to warn him of his attempt to derail this thread. Omnibus, i'm not discussing CoE with you. If you want to do that, create your own thread. This threads intentions have been clearly printed. Unless you fully replicate his device to every measurement, you are creating assumptions of the motors energy status.
I don't care about your personal opinions and what you want to discuss. The essence of any discussion involving magnetic motors such as this one is fundamentally tied with discussing violation of CoE. You're incompetent if don't know this.
Omnibus, I am not trying to be sarcastic, but no one appointed you the sheriff of " Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??" county. Just simply stop replying to all of us. This thread is dead in regards to Als motor. Your expertise should be utilized in a more appropriate forum. Surely this is not the only thread you are on. My god, spend time with your wife. I thought PolyMatrix post was dead on accurate and that was the last good post.
Quote from: icanbeatbob on March 06, 2008, 02:59:10 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 02:29:50 AM
Quote from: HopeForHumanity on March 06, 2008, 01:46:34 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 01:16:41 AM
Quote from: HopeForHumanity on March 06, 2008, 12:45:22 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 12:32:57 AM
Quote from: HopeForHumanity on March 06, 2008, 12:24:04 AM
insubstantial, stupid, silly, incoherent, arrogant, self-important?
Anybody else make a connection?
Omnibus,
Please stop... No one at this point cares about your smot... If you babble on endlessly about how other individuals clutter threads, look at what your doing... YOU dig your self into this. You want intellectual stimulation through the wrong manner. I'm getting sick of the clutter you build up and lead through the threads. I'm an info hunter, and it sucks when people like you stick your trolls hands into threads I want to read and absorb to learn. I question how the admin can ignore your spiteful behaviour. >:(
Here's another one ...
I must be perfectly clear with you, only uneducated minds will not care about "my smot". What I've done is the only scientifically sound analysis as to why anybody should ever be interested in the matters concerning violation of CoE and overunity. So far there has been absolutely no progress whatsoever in this matter other than the analysis of Taisnierius' device conclusively proving violation of CoE. Thus, if you want to learn something, I've provided it. There is absolutely nothing else to be learned. Everything else is a repetition in different variants of well known mistakes and dead ends. Besides, there is hardly anyone interested in whether or not you want to learn. Keep it to yourself, don't clutter the thread with your personal stuff
How about get the hell out of the thread. Does that reach your limited brain? Can you comprehend yourself? We as humans are slow to understand. This includes you. Stop cluttering this thread. I've already understood CoE being violated. Virtual particles do it all the time. However scientists make an exception as they claim there existence is as short as possible, thus unable to be used. But that doesn't change, because time is just a unit of measurement. It's how you look at the picture omnibus. I say you should end the argument, or you could continue and make your self look like a hypocrite. Again stop cluttering the thread, hypocrite. ::)
With the above you demonstrate that you haven't understood anything related to violation of CoE and therefore should be the last person to drive people out of the thread discussing exactly this. Don't clutter the thread with your incompetence.
Fool! You have just proven your LARGEST mistake. This thread has nothing to do with discussing CoE. This thread is about the magnetic motor on youtube. Replicate it or not. Admin, if you are reading this post, he has clearly admited his intentions are not to discuss the correct topic. I ask you to warn him of his attempt to derail this thread. Omnibus, i'm not discussing CoE with you. If you want to do that, create your own thread. This threads intentions have been clearly printed. Unless you fully replicate his device to every measurement, you are creating assumptions of the motors energy status.
I don't care about your personal opinions and what you want to discuss. The essence of any discussion involving magnetic motors such as this one is fundamentally tied with discussing violation of CoE. You're incompetent if don't know this.
Omnibus, I am not trying to be sarcastic, but no one appointed you the sheriff of " Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??" county. Just simply stop replying to all of us. This thread is dead in regards to Als motor. Your expertise should be utilized in a more appropriate forum. Surely this is not the only thread you are on. My god, spend time with your wife. I thought PolyMatrix post was dead on accurate and that was the last good post.
No, you and the like stop posting texts unrelated to the topic at hand. If you can't control yourself and have the urge to continuously blabber someone has to stop you, appointed or not. Thus, again, stop the blabber. This thread may or may not be dead but that's not for blabbering idiots to decide.
Save your breath folks, you cannot reason with Omnibus, its been tried over and over, they eventually had to ban him from the Steorn forum because of this.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 03:10:37 AM
This thread may or may not be dead but that's not for blabbering idiots to decide.
Yes, you are correct Omnibus... It is not for YOU to decide.
Quote from: RunningBare on March 06, 2008, 09:33:43 AM
Save your breath folks, you cannot reason with Omnibus, its been tried over and over, they eventually had to ban him from the Steorn forum because of this.
It's especially not for liars such as you to express opinions on the matter let alone be reasoned with. See this: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg80665.html#msg80665
Quote from: JFK on March 06, 2008, 10:06:45 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 03:10:37 AM
This thread may or may not be dead but that's not for blabbering idiots to decide.
Yes, you are correct Omnibus... It is not for YOU to decide.
No, I said that it's not for blabbering idiots such as you, who haven't contributed anything to the field, to decide whether the thread is or isn't dead. Read it again and you may get it.
Yeah, I get it....
My first impression was correct. YOU are nothing but an ignorant and arrogant wannabe scientist troll adding absolutely nothing of value to this thread.
Why are you ranting about Al here when he does not visit or post here ?
WHERE is the video of your replication ?
WHY were you banned at steorn ?
WILL you ever add anything of value to this thread ?
Don't bother answering... Those are rhetorical questions. ;)
Quote from: JFK on March 06, 2008, 11:35:31 AM
Yeah, I get it....
My first impression was correct. YOU are nothing but an ignorant and arrogant wannabe scientist troll adding absolutely nothing of value to this thread.
Why are you ranting about Al here when he does not visit or post here ?
WHERE is the video of your replication ?
WHY were you banned at steorn ?
WILL you ever add anything of value to this thread ?
Don't bother answering... Those are rhetorical questions. ;)
Like I said, blabbering idiots such as you who have contributed nothing to the field should stop cluttering the thread with their nonsense.
So Genius, what is your contribution.... other than loony raving ?
Quote from: JFK on March 06, 2008, 11:48:55 AM
So Genius, what is your contribution.... other than loony raving ?
You are the one who has no contribution and therefore must not pass judgments on scientific matters and who must not clutter the thread. In addition, although it isn't necessary to spell out to you my contribution I already did.in a previous post. This should conclude the exchange.
@All,
So, here's an idea @alsetalokin gave which could be reproduced: http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=m6DiE81UBfs&rel=1&eurl=http%3A//www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php%3FDiscussionID%3D59687%26page%3D43&iurl=http%3A//s2.ytimg.com/vi/m6DiE81UBfs/default.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskK2tvgKHZKYCp600pLV_V1Z
Well done, @Harvey, although that's not what we're looking for (we're looking for the effects seen in the first video which allegedly kick in without any external energy input).
Nevertheless, it will be interesting to make the simple calculation based on the weight of your rotor what energy is needed to keep it running at the rpm seen in the video and compare it with the energy actually spent when driving the piston.
Yeah, I didn't think you had a contribution....
I NEVER claimed to have one, as you did back on page 30 or so.
Quote from: JFK on March 06, 2008, 12:18:56 PM
Yeah, I didn't think you had a contribution....
I NEVER claimed to have one, as you did back on page 30 or so.
So then, having no contribution, you must not pass judgments on scientific matters and must not clutter the thread.
Who else here would like to vote to ban Omnibus? Either he has to go or I do. I wonder how Stefan will sell ads with only one person in the forum berating the rest of the world and their scientific contributions?
Quote from: konduct on March 06, 2008, 12:44:20 PM
Who else here would like to vote to ban Omnibus? Either he has to go or I do. I wonder how Stefan will sell ads with only one person in the forum berating the rest of the world and their scientific contributions?
You're offending Stefan badly by implying that he's maintaining this forum just to sell ads.
As far as leaving, go ahead, try to find a better forum than this if you're genuinely interested in discussing overunity stuff.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 12:48:08 PM
Quote from: konduct on March 06, 2008, 12:44:20 PM
Who else here would like to vote to ban Omnibus? Either he has to go or I do. I wonder how Stefan will sell ads with only one person in the forum berating the rest of the world and their scientific contributions?
You're offending Stefan badly by implying that he's maintaining this forum just to sell ads.
As far as leaving, go ahead, try to find a better forum than this if you're genuinely interested in discussing overunity stuff.
No, you are offending everyone here with your blabbering and ad homiens.
Fortunately I am used to your kind as my other forums are much more controversial.
Of course, that this http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=m6DiE81UBfs&rel=1&eurl=http%3A//www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php%3FDiscussionID%3D59687%26page%3D43&iurl=http%3A//s2.ytimg.com/vi/m6DiE81UBfs/default.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskK2tvgKHZKYCp600pLV_V1Z can work is as trivial as can be. There are many other ways this can be accomplished and even participants in this forum have shown such although moving the stator magnets by hand. Where's the effect of acceleration with no external input we see in the first video, though? Experiments such as the above in no way qualify as reproducing the effect seen in the video.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 12:48:08 PM
Quote from: konduct on March 06, 2008, 12:44:20 PM
Who else here would like to vote to ban Omnibus? Either he has to go or I do. I wonder how Stefan will sell ads with only one person in the forum berating the rest of the world and their scientific contributions?
You're offending Stefan badly by implying that he's maintaining this forum just to sell ads.
As far as leaving, go ahead, try to find a better forum than this if you're genuinely interested in discussing overunity stuff.
Not at all. This forum is supported by ads, unlike you. The people here are here for a reason. The ads help contribute to Stefan's prize money and to the operation of the site. The site isn't for the ads...the ads are for the site...which would collapse if you were allowed to run free and patronize everyone on it.
I am a way better "attacker" than you Omnibus...if you want to play your game and you think you can wake up every morning to me telling everyone on here about your mom and that whole incest thing you suffered through, then fine...keep being a dick. I'll enjoy insulting you as much as you seem to enjoy insulting others. I won't be so flowery with my words though. Do you enjoy being called "AIDS infested cum bubble" or "vaginal blood wort" better?
Quote from: konduct on March 06, 2008, 01:02:50 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 12:48:08 PM
Quote from: konduct on March 06, 2008, 12:44:20 PM
Who else here would like to vote to ban Omnibus? Either he has to go or I do. I wonder how Stefan will sell ads with only one person in the forum berating the rest of the world and their scientific contributions?
You're offending Stefan badly by implying that he's maintaining this forum just to sell ads.
As far as leaving, go ahead, try to find a better forum than this if you're genuinely interested in discussing overunity stuff.
Not at all. This forum is supported by ads, unlike you. The people here are here for a reason. The ads help contribute to Stefan's prize money and to the operation of the site. The site isn't for the ads...the ads are for the site...which would collapse if you were allowed to run free and patronize everyone on it.
I am a way better "attacker" than you Omnibus...if you want to play your game and you think you can wake up every morning to me telling everyone on here about your mom and that whole incest thing you suffered through, then fine...keep being a dick. I'll enjoy insulting you as much as you seem to enjoy insulting others. I won't be so flowery with my words though. Do you enjoy being called "AIDS infested cum bubble" or "vaginal blood wort" better?
Stop offending Stefan. And stop the blackmail -- you won't go away if you're really interested in the field no matter what because you won't find a better place to discuss these matters.
QuoteI am a way better "attacker" than you Omnibus...if you want to play your game and you think you can wake up every morning to me telling everyone on here about your mom and that whole incest thing you suffered through, then fine...keep being a dick. I'll enjoy insulting you as much as you seem to enjoy insulting others. I won't be so flowery with my words though. Do you enjoy being called "AIDS infested cum bubble" or "vaginal blood wort" better?
This is a proof you're a potty mouthed swine who should be banned form this forum.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 01:13:57 PM
Quote from: konduct on March 06, 2008, 01:02:50 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 12:48:08 PM
Quote from: konduct on March 06, 2008, 12:44:20 PM
Who else here would like to vote to ban Omnibus? Either he has to go or I do. I wonder how Stefan will sell ads with only one person in the forum berating the rest of the world and their scientific contributions?
You're offending Stefan badly by implying that he's maintaining this forum just to sell ads.
As far as leaving, go ahead, try to find a better forum than this if you're genuinely interested in discussing overunity stuff.
Not at all. This forum is supported by ads, unlike you. The people here are here for a reason. The ads help contribute to Stefan's prize money and to the operation of the site. The site isn't for the ads...the ads are for the site...which would collapse if you were allowed to run free and patronize everyone on it.
I am a way better "attacker" than you Omnibus...if you want to play your game and you think you can wake up every morning to me telling everyone on here about your mom and that whole incest thing you suffered through, then fine...keep being a dick. I'll enjoy insulting you as much as you seem to enjoy insulting others. I won't be so flowery with my words though. Do you enjoy being called "AIDS infested cum bubble" or "vaginal blood wort" better?
Stop offending Stefan. And stop the blackmail -- you won't go away if you're really interested in the field no matter what because you won't find a better place to discuss these matters.
No offense to Stefan but I build sites for a living. Replacing this site and its members would be a minor inconvenience compared to dealing with the likes of you.
It's curious to watch to what lengths some are to go in their advocacy of @alsetalokin. And the tolerance towards the obvious moron @overconfident is really amusing.
Quote from: konduct on March 06, 2008, 01:24:06 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 01:13:57 PM
Quote from: konduct on March 06, 2008, 01:02:50 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 12:48:08 PM
Quote from: konduct on March 06, 2008, 12:44:20 PM
Who else here would like to vote to ban Omnibus? Either he has to go or I do. I wonder how Stefan will sell ads with only one person in the forum berating the rest of the world and their scientific contributions?
You're offending Stefan badly by implying that he's maintaining this forum just to sell ads.
As far as leaving, go ahead, try to find a better forum than this if you're genuinely interested in discussing overunity stuff.
Not at all. This forum is supported by ads, unlike you. The people here are here for a reason. The ads help contribute to Stefan's prize money and to the operation of the site. The site isn't for the ads...the ads are for the site...which would collapse if you were allowed to run free and patronize everyone on it.
I am a way better "attacker" than you Omnibus...if you want to play your game and you think you can wake up every morning to me telling everyone on here about your mom and that whole incest thing you suffered through, then fine...keep being a dick. I'll enjoy insulting you as much as you seem to enjoy insulting others. I won't be so flowery with my words though. Do you enjoy being called "AIDS infested cum bubble" or "vaginal blood wort" better?
Stop offending Stefan. And stop the blackmail -- you won't go away if you're really interested in the field no matter what because you won't find a better place to discuss these matters.
No offense to Stefan but I build sites for a living. Replacing this site and its members would be a minor inconvenience compared to dealing with the likes of you.
Don't make me laugh, you little nothing. Why don't you try it.
I don't want this to sink. It's funny how some are trying to be advocates to the hopeless @alsetalokin's cause. And it's really amusing how the obvious moron @overconfident is motherly tolerated. Pathetic situation.
@alsetalokin is wrong if he thinks I'll forget what he did. I will not, the way I am not forgetting what Torbay, @xpenzif, "Bedini" Mike, Danny from Ohio and several others did and I will always remind that and will hold them accountable in the best forum in the net for this purpose--overunity.com. They'd better not cross my path.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 01:18:25 PM
QuoteI am a way better "attacker" than you Omnibus...if you want to play your game and you think you can wake up every morning to me telling everyone on here about your mom and that whole incest thing you suffered through, then fine...keep being a dick. I'll enjoy insulting you as much as you seem to enjoy insulting others. I won't be so flowery with my words though. Do you enjoy being called "AIDS infested cum bubble" or "vaginal blood wort" better?
This is a proof you're a potty mouthed swine who should be banned form this forum.
So you can call me names but I can't? Just trying to figure out the rules here? Or can I only use words from the 15th century? Swine? Who are you? Monty Python? LOLOLOLOL...How about ..."lick thy own testicles vermin!" or "cease and desist your savage antics..." would either of those work? Fool. I'm not defending anybody or anything here other than the right to make a comment and not be attacked by your overly verbose responses. You are not my peer dickbreath...get over it and find some buddies that care what you have to offer.
And I'll clutter whatever I feel like...ask your mom.
You are not elite nor are you a hero. Aren't you the same guy who throws a tantrum and deletes all of your own posts all the time?
Quote from: konduct on March 06, 2008, 01:42:19 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 01:18:25 PM
QuoteI am a way better "attacker" than you Omnibus...if you want to play your game and you think you can wake up every morning to me telling everyone on here about your mom and that whole incest thing you suffered through, then fine...keep being a dick. I'll enjoy insulting you as much as you seem to enjoy insulting others. I won't be so flowery with my words though. Do you enjoy being called "AIDS infested cum bubble" or "vaginal blood wort" better?
This is a proof you're a potty mouthed swine who should be banned form this forum.
So you can call me names but I can't? Just trying to figure out the rules here? Or can I only use words from the 15th century? Swine? Who are you? Monty Python? LOLOLOLOL...How about ..."lick thy own testicles vermin!" or "cease and desist your savage antics..." would either of those work? Fool. I'm not defending anybody or anything here other than the right to make a comment and not be attacked by your overly verbose responses. You are not my peer dickbreath...get over it and find some buddies that care what you have to offer.
And I'll clutter whatever I feel like...ask your mom.
You're potty mouthed swine and the above is another proof for that. That's not calling you names, that's a proven fact. As any swine you can clutter whatever you feel like until someone shows you the way. Go ahead clutter, you're a swine, that's what swines do.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 01:45:34 PM
Quote from: konduct on March 06, 2008, 01:42:19 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 01:18:25 PM
QuoteI am a way better "attacker" than you Omnibus...if you want to play your game and you think you can wake up every morning to me telling everyone on here about your mom and that whole incest thing you suffered through, then fine...keep being a dick. I'll enjoy insulting you as much as you seem to enjoy insulting others. I won't be so flowery with my words though. Do you enjoy being called "AIDS infested cum bubble" or "vaginal blood wort" better?
This is a proof you're a potty mouthed swine who should be banned form this forum.
So you can call me names but I can't? Just trying to figure out the rules here? Or can I only use words from the 15th century? Swine? Who are you? Monty Python? LOLOLOLOL...How about ..."lick thy own testicles vermin!" or "cease and desist your savage antics..." would either of those work? Fool. I'm not defending anybody or anything here other than the right to make a comment and not be attacked by your overly verbose responses. You are not my peer dickbreath...get over it and find some buddies that care what you have to offer.
And I'll clutter whatever I feel like...ask your mom.
You're potty mouthed swine and the above is another proof for that. That's not calling you names, that a proven fact. As any swine you can clutter whatever you feel like until someone shows you the way. Go ahead clutter, you're a swine, that's what swines do.
Takes one to know one doesn't it? You have obviously mistaken me for someone who cares about your opinion Omnibutt. A pig called a swine is no less annoying is it? Get the point? Everyone here has confirmed you are a pain in the ass...so I guess Ominbutt could be similar to hemorrhoid...itching burning pain in the ass.
I could go on for days...so what are the rules Monty?
@alsetalokin is too concerned about the reaction of his employers. His employers must be out of their minds to keep such an employee on their payroll. He did this here, what's the guarantee he won't do this to them one day?
So Alsetalokin hurt your itty bitty feelwins? Is that what's wrong? :-[
Someone should look into this. Not that this is an excuse but the likes of @xpenzif are at least using their own resources. @alsetalokin is taking advantage of someone else?s lab to stage underhanded games on the internet. These people should be made aware of this fact and make @alsetalokin accountable for what he did. Otherwise, they?ll prove they are part of this sick game.
The last few posts remind me of children in a school playground.
There is another stupid game people play called one-upmanship where the argument of who is better at (insults/ building/ sports/ dancing/ puzzle solving/ etc.) is all talk and no action.
These types of posts achieve NOTHING. Only emotional unscientific stubborn small-minded people with no confidence engage in this type of "discussion".
1) Offence can only happen if you have no confidence in the truth of what you believe in and/or you believe everyone must believe the same as you.
2) Statement (1) is contradicted by people who also believe in the freedom of speech or visa versa
When you sit hidden at the end of a computer terminal the only thing you are going to suffer is your own emotions and how you feel about the words you read.
There are people who like to tease other people because they get a response from them. A "Wow they noticed me" emotional effect implying that they think they must be important because they were noticed.
I leave it to the reader?s knowledge and ability to understand these concepts and decide how they want to behave with their words to the world in future posts.
Accountable for what ?
Declaring he had found an anomoly which he denounced as NOT being overunity ?
Why do you have such a vendetta against him when it was YOU who CHOSE to spend your time investigating his self admitted underunity ?
As for myself, I now know that should I discover something like that I won't be posting youtubes and the likes simply because of ignoramouses like you.
@Polymatrix...that is exactly the game we are playing here. The lesson is hopefully that Omnibus will realize that anyone can do what he does...if not better...so find another game that is less annoying to others. Classic Art of War really. Use your enemy's tactics against them. Thank you for being an adult! I'm not a bully...just an equalizer.
Quote from: JFK on March 06, 2008, 02:34:35 PM
Accountable for what ?
Declaring he had found an anomoly which he denounced as NOT being overunity ?
Why do you have such a vendetta against him when it was YOU who CHOSE to spend your time investigating his self admitted underunity ?
As for myself, I now know that should I discover something like that I won't be posting youtubes and the likes simply because of ignoramouses like you.
With the above you prove once again that you are an ignoramus, an easy target for the hoaxer @alsetalokin. If the acceleration he demonstrates really occurs without an external input of energy this can be nothing else but overunity no matter what it appears to be to someone not well versed in science such as @alsetalokin. The other possibility is fraud. No other option.
Quote from: PolyMatrix on March 06, 2008, 02:33:57 PM
The last few posts remind me of children in a school playground.
There is another stupid game people play called one-upmanship where the argument of who is better at (insults/ building/ sports/ dancing/ puzzle solving/ etc.) is all talk and no action.
These types of posts achieve NOTHING. Only emotional unscientific stubborn small-minded people with no confidence engage in this type of "discussion".
1) Offence can only happen if you have no confidence in the truth of what you believe in and/or you believe everyone must believe the same as you.
2) Statement (1) is contradicted by people who also believe in the freedom of speech or visa versa
When you sit hidden at the end of a computer terminal the only thing you are going to suffer is your own emotions and how you feel about the words you read.
There are people who like to tease other people because they get a response from them. A "Wow they noticed me" emotional effect implying that they think they must be important because they were noticed.
I leave it to the reader?s knowledge and ability to understand these concepts and decide how they want to behave with their words to the world in future posts.
No, no, when you see a potty mouthed swine call it a swine, don't finagle. It may dirty you too some day.
One should expect that the managers of Steorn forum should try to contact the employers of @alsetalokin and ask that he be made accountable because he used Steorn?s site as a conduit to perpetrate his hoax. It?s logical to assume they don?t need additional bad publicity to accompany their London fiasco. Unless they are in on it as a way to distract the attention regarding their own mishaps. It?s anyone?s guess as present what the real truth is.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 02:43:02 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 06, 2008, 02:34:35 PM
Accountable for what ?
Declaring he had found an anomoly which he denounced as NOT being overunity ?
Why do you have such a vendetta against him when it was YOU who CHOSE to spend your time investigating his self admitted underunity ?
As for myself, I now know that should I discover something like that I won't be posting youtubes and the likes simply because of ignoramouses like you.
With the above you prove once again that you are an ignoramus, an easy target for the hoaxer @alsetalokin. If the acceleration he demonstrates really occurs without an external input of energy this can be nothing else but overunity no matter what it appears to be to someone not well versed in science such as @alsetalokin.
LOL, I'm not the one who claimed to attempt to replicate what Al did.... I just want to understand the theory behind his toy.
You on the other hand want to nail him to a cross for sharing what he created for a few minutes before he pulled it.
I can understand why he does not want to talk to people with idiots like you hounding him.
QuoteOne should expect that the managers of Steorn forum should try to contact the employers of @alsetalokin and ask that he be made accountable because he used Steorn?s site as a conduit to perpetrate his hoax. It?s logical to assume they don?t need additional bad publicity to accompany their London fiasco. Unless they are in on it as a way to distract the attention regarding their own mishaps. It?s anyone?s guess as present what the real truth is.
Then why don't you take your pottymouth over to steorm and make your demands known there ?
Oh I forgot.... You are banned there. < rolls eyes >
Quit snitching Omnibus. Shouldn't you be monitoring a hallway somewhere?
Like I said, @alsetalokin shouldn't cross my path let alone try to talk to me. What theory, what toy? He perpetrated the worst crime in science--a hoax--and should be held accountable for that.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 02:48:33 PM
One should expect that the managers of Steorn forum should try to contact the employers of @alsetalokin and ask that he be made accountable because he used Steorn?s site as a conduit to perpetrate his hoax. It?s logical to assume they don?t need additional bad publicity to accompany their London fiasco. Unless they are in on it as a way to distract the attention regarding their own mishaps. It?s anyone?s guess as present what the real truth is.
This would probably be breaking the constitutional amendment giving people the right to privacy.
Secondly, the word attacks are merely a 'power game' of trying to get a response from an individual, which is exactly the same technique many school bullies use. The old Aesops Fable of the Wind and the Sun trying to get a man to take his coat off comes to mind, where kindness achieves more than force.
Finally some of the posts written by @alsetalokin tend to indicate some mild paranoia or a sense of humour using the concept of paranoia. However the intelligent thing to realise is that in real life we all have different priorities and nobody is someone else's tool and if we start forcing people to behave as we want them to then others may think they can do the same to you.
The balance of achieving a symbiosis between competition and co-operation is not and easy one.
If you are confident of the truth no amount of pain (Christians and the lions) will 'dirty' you.
It's an even greater offense to perpetrate hoax through electronic media and play with people for your own amusement. The privacy of hoaxers, criminals and terrorists isn't protected. Quite the contrary, in order for the society to be protected from such vermin their privacy is made unprotected.
A civilized society will not allow for someone to spit in your face and stay with a protected privacy.
Question: Is a magnetic force conservitive or non conservative?
According to difinition a conservative force is one with potential energy to act on an object.
However I also find that in Maxwell's Laws people saying
QuoteOne of Maxwell's equations says that a changing magnetic field is associated with an electric field, whose apparent rotation about a point is proportional to the time?rate of change of the magnetic field. Since the curl is not zero, an electric field associated with a changing magnetic field is, therefore, not conservative.
(from) http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/report.htm
Which to my mind leaves the question of 'hoax' still open to definate proof.
Hi, would you like to know Alsetalokin's aspect? ???
Here it is!
http://aycu09.webshots.com/image/44848/2000709355308727243_rs.jpg (http://aycu09.webshots.com/image/44848/2000709355308727243_rs.jpg)
From the original image, it seems he has blond (or white) hairs!
http://www.ospmm.org/whipmag/3Ax8_s1.JPG (http://www.ospmm.org/whipmag/3Ax8_s1.JPG)
;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 03:27:34 PM
It's an even greater offense to perpetrate hoax through electronic media and play with people for your own amusement. The privacy of hoaxers, criminals and terrorists isn't protected. Quite the contrary, in order for the society to be protected from such vermin their privacy is made unprotected.
A civilized society will not allow for someone to spit in your face and stay with a protected privacy.
I still await your proof that it is indeed a hoax.
Al spit in your face ? Oh my.
And don't even get me started on terrorists.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 02:48:33 PM
One should expect that the managers of Steorn forum should try to contact the employers of @alsetalokin and ask that he be made accountable because he used Steorn?s site as a conduit to perpetrate his hoax. It?s logical to assume they don?t need additional bad publicity to accompany their London fiasco. Unless they are in on it as a way to distract the attention regarding their own mishaps. It?s anyone?s guess as present what the real truth is.
This is just what I was waiting for, your not pissed off at AL for a possible hoax, your pissed off because in the end your supposition that CoE can be violated has NOT been proved, every attack on AL and other members of this forum by you is more about your ego and crying like a baby, your upset because you truly believed AL had something and now its all slipping away, that why your attacking AL, not because its a possible hoax, but because he has hurt you.
Poor little omnibus has scraped his knee, someone get him a bandage.
Quote from: PolyMatrix on March 06, 2008, 03:49:00 PM
Question: Is a magnetic force conservitive or non conservative?
According to difinition a conservative force is one with potential energy to act on an object.
However I also find that in Maxwell's Laws people saying
QuoteOne of Maxwell's equations says that a changing magnetic field is associated with an electric field, whose apparent rotation about a point is proportional to the time?rate of change of the magnetic field. Since the curl is not zero, an electric field associated with a changing magnetic field is, therefore, not conservative.
(from) http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/report.htm
Which to my mind leaves the question of 'hoax' still open to definate proof.
What we're discussing here are time independent magnetic fields which are conservative. Maxwell's equations treat changing fields--recall what they consist of, Ampere's and Farady's laws as two of the four laws, correct?
The hoax in @alsetalokin's case would be if he has used generators of changing magnetic fields concealed from the viewer while claiming a sustained effect only due to intrinsically time independent fields.
If it's not a hoax, Inducing time dependence through manual turning of the rotor which would cause the observed acceleration, let alone the seven hour run can only be due to violation of CoE when intrinsically time independent fields are involved.
I wont add to the vote to have omnibus banned, but perhaps Stefan can have a quiet word with omnibus about is attitude towards other forum members.
Quote from: RunningBare on March 06, 2008, 04:24:09 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 02:48:33 PM
One should expect that the managers of Steorn forum should try to contact the employers of @alsetalokin and ask that he be made accountable because he used Steorn?s site as a conduit to perpetrate his hoax. It?s logical to assume they don?t need additional bad publicity to accompany their London fiasco. Unless they are in on it as a way to distract the attention regarding their own mishaps. It?s anyone?s guess as present what the real truth is.
This is just what I was waiting for, your not pissed off at AL for a possible hoax, your pissed off because in the end your supposition that CoE can be violated has NOT been proved, every attack on AL and other members of this forum by you is more about your ego and crying like a baby, your upset because you truly believed AL had something and now its all slipping away, that why your attacking AL, not because its a possible hoax, but because he has hurt you.
Poor little omnibus has scraped his knee, someone get him a bandage.
You don't deserve and answer because you're obviously unqualified but here it goes. Violation of CoE is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt even if there would never be a working magnetic motor constructed. Constructing a working magnetic motor is a specific engineering task, very difficult at that, which has nothing to do with proving that CoE can be violated. That it can be violated is proven beyond a doubt. Further, all magnetic motors are based on exactly the same principle and have exactly the same problems despite the differences in design. I would hope, however, that some designs better than others may allow for a certain motor to be fine tuned easier so that we can finally see a working pmm. So far none such has been demonstrated reproducibly, despite the many claims by semi-educated, half-educated and whatever else enthusiasts.Sad but that's what it is .Again, the fact that no pmm has been shown to work so far is not a proof that CoE cannot be violated. It can as has already been shown beyond a shadow of a doubt, awaiting the proper engineering solution to be clothed in a slightly more practical forma of a permanent magnet motor.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 04:36:11 PM
CoE has blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda, blah blah blah.
"Yawns"
Quote from: RunningBare on March 06, 2008, 04:46:52 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 04:36:11 PM
CoE has blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda, blah blah blah.
"Yawns"
Typical reaction of an uneducated person. Go watch soccer and drink a beer or two, don't hang out here, nothing interesting for you will happen.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 04:51:16 PM
Typical reaction of an uneducated person. Go watch soccer and drink a beer or two, don't hang out here, nothing interesting for you will happen.
Oh there is something of interest, a facinating study in OCD and God complexes, both of which you have in abundance.
Whahahaha this is like a bad soap opera!!!!
Quote from: RunningBare on March 06, 2008, 04:54:36 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 04:51:16 PM
Typical reaction of an uneducated person. Go watch soccer and drink a beer or two, don't hang out here, nothing interesting for you will happen.
Oh there is something of interest, a facinating study in OCD and God complexes, both of which you have in abundance.
Then, why are you yawning? There's something for you too.
Quote from: Unicron on March 06, 2008, 04:54:46 PM
Whahahaha this is like a bad soap opera!!!!
What did you expect, free energy? ;)
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 04:59:07 PM
Then, why are you yawning? There's something for you too.
Come now omni, your supposed to be intelligent?, I was yawning at your CoE statements, not the fact that your an obsessive compulsive with a god complex.
Quote from: RunningBare on March 06, 2008, 04:59:15 PM
Quote from: Unicron on March 06, 2008, 04:54:46 PM
Whahahaha this is like a bad soap opera!!!!
What did you expect, free energy? ;)
hehehehe good one lol!!!!
All,
A new video from Harvey at Steorn.
http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=m6DiE81UBfs&rel=1&eurl=&iurl=http%3A//s2.ytimg.com/vi/m6DiE81UBfs/default.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskK-Bd637K0nCPK_D8ELYMGg
Attention omni-bust (bad joke, jk) and others. I have created a thread for the Violation of CoE talk. Please redirect CoE arguments and comments to this thread. They still must relate to smot and magnet motor stuff...
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4235.msg80979.html#new (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4235.msg80979.html#new)
Quote from: nfeijo on March 06, 2008, 05:36:07 PM
All,
A new video from Harvey at Steorn.
http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=m6DiE81UBfs&rel=1&eurl=&iurl=http%3A//s2.ytimg.com/vi/m6DiE81UBfs/default.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskK-Bd637K0nCPK_D8ELYMGg
This was already posted here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg80852.html#msg80852
Quote from: Omnibus on March 06, 2008, 12:17:32 PM
@All,
So, here's an idea @alsetalokin gave which could be reproduced: http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=m6DiE81UBfs&rel=1&eurl=http%3A//www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php%3FDiscussionID%3D59687%26page%3D43&iurl=http%3A//s2.ytimg.com/vi/m6DiE81UBfs/default.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskK2tvgKHZKYCp600pLV_V1Z
Well done, @Harvey, although that's not what we're looking for (we're looking for the effects seen in the first video which allegedly kick in without any external energy input).
Nevertheless, it will be interesting to make the simple calculation based on the weight of your rotor what energy is needed to keep it running at the rpm seen in the video and compare it with the energy actually spent when driving the piston.
Hi Omni,
I
f I am not mistaken, Harvey has NO external energy input!!! The magnets with the south poles up, on the top of his rotor, hit the hall effect sensor above them. From what I understand, it powers itself!! We need to confirm this, and if true, would be worthy of replicating. We need a good little circuit diagram and we are off. Waiting on Al for more detail seems a dead end, IMHO.
@ AllPlease review Harveys video... again... http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=m6DiE81UBfs&rel=1&eurl=http%3A//fizzx.com/viewtopic.php%3Ft%3D306%26postdays%3D0%26postorder%3Dasc%26start%3D60%26sid%3Dd387485a22fe66dc213eca89e23478f&iurl=http%3A//s2.ytimg.com/vi/m6DiE81UBfs/default.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskKMRpGlANM9ZV8_PNJRXe2N
Thank you!
Bruce
From the youtube page:
Quote
AdminOnDuty (6 hours ago) Show Hide
Marked as spam
Reply
The circuit is powered 12V via a Recoton 120VAC to 12VDC power pack. Standard TIP 120 is a Darlington driver transistor. The KewL thing here is the method of magnetic drive to the rotor incorporates magnetic shear and resonant oscillation of the stator mag. An optimal system would use a very narrow (1ms or less) pulse on the solenoid and swing 180 degrees for maximum torque transfer. The plunger is magnetic and thus converts energy back to the source on each reciprocation via a clamping diode.
All, :)
Obnibus is need to be here, like 2 poles, South and north
like it or not, so it is ;)
Regards, have a nice day
Sorry, spell,,, Omnibus :-\
From this thread, here is what I have learned about how to waste thousands of other people's manhours (and untold money) with only a bit of your own time and money.
1. Build a non working permanent magnet motor. The design should be unique, though not necessarily by much.
2. Cleverly hide a battery motor inside to make it spin on demand.
3. Post a video on youtube, preferably with insufficient lighting.
4. Be vague on a few details, like the construction materials, to give people a little bit to do with trial and error, but be very clear on most things, so people are tempted to replicate.
5. Tell people that millimeters matter in construction.
6. Cease all further communications, pleading "harrassment."
Then, voila, watch the show.
Quote from: nfeijo on March 06, 2008, 05:36:07 PM
All,
A new video from Harvey at Steorn.
http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=m6DiE81UBfs
I've posted a feature page here: http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Variant:Harvey
Feel free to help update it with a full set of instructions, parts list, diagrams, etc. so others can replicate it.
Sterling
Overheated neodymium magnet over 70 c get weak, the stator magnet between dampers are weak or a iron magnet ;)
Well know this doesn't seem like a waste of time !!! Chet
Quote from: sterlinga on March 08, 2008, 02:01:58 AM
Quote from: nfeijo on March 06, 2008, 05:36:07 PM
All,
A new video from Harvey at Steorn.
http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=m6DiE81UBfs
I've posted a feature page here: http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:MPMM:Variant:Harvey
Feel free to help update it with a full set of instructions, parts list, diagrams, etc. so others can replicate it.
Sterling
nice to see one finally working ;D
Like a breath of fresh air this is kewl stuff just what the doctor ordered thanx again PES Chet
Hi Over_Unity dot com builders and 'belligerents' :)),
What about this patent?
US4179633 - Donald A. Kelly - MAGNETIC WHEEL DRIVE.
http://freenrg.info/Patents/Mag_Motors/US4179633.pdf (http://freenrg.info/Patents/Mag_Motors/US4179633.pdf)
Best
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :) :) :) :) :D :D :D :D
Any idea who the inventor / Patent holder might be??
by that I mean his career, occupation etc....
No the patenter of this device is not listed at address however a woman came up My family was from this neighborhood if you think it worth while I could stop and see if thats his wife very politely Ill be passing within 15 miles of there tomorrow Chet
your call... but, maybe D.A.K. got fed up with the hostile weather conditions and moved to Florida?
http://www.hasslberger.com/phy/phy_3.htm
This might be the same D.A.K......
Thanks for that , could be a snow goose ,I will see Chet
Magneto Kenetic Junsen Damper
-- This is from a 1994 (10BG) SeaGate HardDrive
It was placed at the edge of the plates, to keep stray lines of flux from the spinning magnetic disk - from interefering with the Read Heads.
smokey,
where did you find the picture? you might be on to something that will keep this project alive. let me guess, you found it from one of the, yet, to be released, " steven mark" videos!!!!
just joking of course, i guess this 50k thing is messing with every thing.
lol
sam
Quote from: supersam on March 09, 2008, 09:13:25 PM
smokey,
where did you find the picture? you might be on to something that will keep this project alive. let me guess, you found it from one of the, yet, to be released, " steven mark" videos!!!!
just joking of course, i guess this 50k thing is messing with every thing.
lol
sam
i took the picture. that came out of the HD mentioned above.
??? Starting to replicate Al's original and would like suggestions on the best method to build the rotor and stator bearing shafts. Pictures if possible and parts numbers. Thought of using the bearing out of old hard drives. Need some help.
If you want to do a true replication, go back 50 pages or so and there are close up pictures.. If I remember correctly the rotor bearing came from an old reel to reel tape deck.
R.I.P
Has ANYONE managed to build a working replica?
if so, would they mind posting diagrams \ schematics for the rest of us to tinker with...
thanks
Quote from: Flying_Wizard on March 17, 2008, 06:53:36 PM
Has ANYONE managed to build a working replica?
if so, would they mind posting diagrams \ schematics for the rest of us to tinker with...
thanks
This is a nasty hoax which its perpetrator, although claiming to demonstrate a real effect, was really intending to demonstrate, in his words, that something false is really false. Of course, no one has been able to replicate this nonsense because it's purpose was not to be reproduced but was only supposed to teach the wide eyed enthusiasts a lesson by wasting their time. Just ignore it and move on.
So did ya figure out how it was hoaxed yet ? ::)
Come on smart guy, inquiring minds want to know.
There are diagrams back about 100 pages ago FW.
Quote from: JFK on March 17, 2008, 08:52:13 PM
So did ya figure out how it was hoaxed yet ? ::)
Come on smart guy, inquiring minds want to know.
There are diagrams back about 100 pages ago FW.
No, I haven't and really want to know too. Do you have any idea?
Quote from: JFK on March 17, 2008, 08:52:13 PM
So did ya figure out how it was hoaxed yet ? ::)
Come on smart guy, inquiring minds want to know.
There are diagrams back about 100 pages ago FW.
deductive reasoning, he used his Omni-presence to intuitively decipher this fact based on one assumption.
1) 136 half-assed replications, + about 23 really well constructed machines, were unable to replicate the effects in the original video: therefore it MUST have been a fake.
This may seem illogical to most, but this conclusion makes sense in his Omni mind. Personally i think its because hes off his meds..
Quote from: sm0ky2 on March 17, 2008, 09:27:13 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 17, 2008, 08:52:13 PM
So did ya figure out how it was hoaxed yet ? ::)
Come on smart guy, inquiring minds want to know.
There are diagrams back about 100 pages ago FW.
deductive reasoning, he used his Omni-presence to intuitively decipher this fact based on one assumption.
1) 136 half-assed replications, + about 23 really well constructed machines, were unable to replicate the effects in the original video: therefore it MUST have been a fake.
This may seem illogical to most, but this conclusion makes sense in his Omni mind. Personally i think its because hes off his meds..
No, no, you're forgetting that @alsetalokin himself admitted the fraud by insisting on the one hand that there was no foul play and what he showed is a real effect while on the other saying that he did all that to prove that something false is indeed false. Do you remember that?
Quote from: Omnibus on March 17, 2008, 09:25:10 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 17, 2008, 08:52:13 PM
So did ya figure out how it was hoaxed yet ? ::)
Come on smart guy, inquiring minds want to know.
There are diagrams back about 100 pages ago FW.
No, I haven't and really want to know too. Do you have any idea?
Did you forget that I am just a stupid nobody ?
Why are you asking me ? ::)
You are the self professed genious, which is why I asked you. ;)
Quote from: JFK on March 17, 2008, 10:58:20 PM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 17, 2008, 09:25:10 PM
Quote from: JFK on March 17, 2008, 08:52:13 PM
So did ya figure out how it was hoaxed yet ? ::)
Come on smart guy, inquiring minds want to know.
There are diagrams back about 100 pages ago FW.
No, I haven't and really want to know too. Do you have any idea?
Did you forget that I am just a stupid nobody ?
Why are you asking me ? ::)
You are the self professed genious, which is why I asked you. ;)
The perpetrator himself implied it's a hoax. You should ask him about the details.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 18, 2008, 12:40:25 AM
The perpetrator himself implied it's a hoax. You should ask him about the details.
Omni,FYI. You are now on record as acknowledging that the so-called "hoax" was merely "implied" and, thus, not a matter of fact.
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
Quote from: Yadaraf on March 18, 2008, 03:18:21 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 18, 2008, 12:40:25 AM
The perpetrator himself implied it's a hoax. You should ask him about the details.
Omni,
FYI. You are now on record as acknowledging that the so-called "hoax" was merely "implied" and, thus, not a matter of fact.
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
Well, that's the nasty essence of such type of hoax. There's no way to prove negative. You know about that logical fallacy, correct?
As for the "implied" part, the truth is that @alsetalokin never said "I committed a hoax". This doesn't mean he didn't commit a hoax. He said that, however, in a more cynical way, trying to make a fool out of everyone. On the one hand he insists the effect wasn't faked while on the other he clearly states that he has done that demonstration to show that something false is false. Go figure what this is if not implicit admission to a hoax.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 18, 2008, 03:28:39 AM
Quote from: Yadaraf on March 18, 2008, 03:18:21 AM
Quote from: Omnibus on March 18, 2008, 12:40:25 AM
The perpetrator himself implied it's a hoax. You should ask him about the details.
Omni,
FYI. You are now on record as acknowledging that the so-called "hoax" was merely "implied" and, thus, not a matter of fact.
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
Well, that's the nasty essence of such type of hoax. There's no way to prove negative. You know about that logical fallacy, correct?
As for the "implied" part, the truth is that @alsetalokin never said "I committed a hoax". This doesn't mean he didn't commit a hoax. He said that, however, in a more cynical way, trying to make a fool out of everyone. On the one hand he insists the effect wasn't faked while on the other he clearly states that he has done that demonstration to show that something false is false. Go figure what this is if not implicit admission to a hoax.
Omni,I understand.
My point is that in the past you have called it a "hoax" explicitly, but this time you are acknowledging that it is only an "implied hoax," which is very different in terms of legal parlance.
Thus, instead of saying
"This is a nasty hoax ... move on," you might consider constructing replies that are more accurate and
less libelous like:
...
"The inventor implied it's a hoax. Move on."Cheers :)
Yada..
.
So, is this a hoax or not? Can't have it both ways.
And we are only 4 more pages from a record setting 200 pages in one thread ;D ;D ;D
Had this of panned out, not sure it would have had very much power to it. A good stepping stone to better things at best.
That is why I declined to build it in the beginning.
thaelin
I thought of a way that it may be faked...
If there was a magnetic driven device attached to the table on the underside, that was turned on at the correct time, with the top device in question spinning (loudly) it would have masked the hidden devices own noise. In addition as the user manually spun the top device it would have allowed it to sit in sync with the bottom device.
*Assuming that there is something on the underside of the table with an external power source feeding it into the top one*
**For all future tests, I would like to suggest that the divices be laid on a glass table or other transparent surface**
Shame, as it had me going for a while, but the bad lighting and poor camera angles (when the top device was moved around) made me think something wasn't right.....
IF This Were NOT a Hoax:::, (magnetically speaking) we went about it entirely the wrong way...
all of the spin-worthy attempts at this design were detailed copies of the physical device. noone seemed to give a rats ass about the magnetic portion of the device.
each magnet is different, if you order a batch of "identicle magnets", you will find that each one has its own magnetic radius, thus each specific device should have been constructed magnetically, rather than physically.
the ONLY way to "copy" AL's device would have been under those lines. you cant re-create the exact physical structure, then try to use it with different magnets. this throws ALL your dimensions off. i pointed this out a couple of times, but everyone just looked right past it...
take the same device and swap out the magnets, or rearrange them and the function becomes slightly different.
so to say that "we learned the device doesnt work" is a completely false statement. We learned that our particular constructions dont work. which means squat.
a magnetic meridian is a finite line. if its "off" by an immeasurable ammount, theoretically, function could cease. This makes what AL claimed to have achieved - similar to hitting the lotto.
We have the advantage of knowing what the desired effect it, it seems that we could use that, to reverse engineer this from a magnetic perspective, rather than ONLY by the exact physical dimensions of the octagonal-rotor,stators, density of the polyethelene baseplate, ect....
as for the implied "Hoax" - remember that although AL did claim the effect he originally video taped was 'real'
he NEVER did say what was causing this effect (though he did mention several times that he did not know)
- this leaves possibility for something other than the device we see, to have caused this. And this 'somethine else' would have had to have been intentional - thus AL would be lying about 'not knowing'.
on the other hand - the statement "to prove something false is false" may have been within the context of a specific act, or small portion of the device in that particular discusion - thus may not have meant the entire device. - also is the fact that AL and his cronies continued R&D long after the original device was 'destroyed'.
Why?? - and the continued discussion of theoretical operation? if he had admitted it was a Hoax, why keep discussing how it works with people?
Also - remember he intentionally gave out FALSE information, more than once.
If he was after money, this would all make sense, but so far he hasn't even mentioned monetary
incentive, and in fact rejected such claims when it was brought up.
This whole thing doesn't make sense, for a hoax, OR a scam artist.. all the crap he put himself through, its possible that AL implied a hoax to get everyone off his case. There have been several people hounding him for information, to apply to their NON-working replications, People harassing him for making a hoax, People telling him hes full of %^&* because "PM is impossible".... With people like that,. WHO NEEDS MIB'S!!??
This whole thing was a rediculous disaster, and handled improperly by all parties involved.
We can learn a lot from this situation, but it has little to do with the actual device...
If this were to 'work', (magnetically speaking) theres only one way it CAN work, i described this about 90 pages ago, it would have to have the rotor and stator in perfect proportion to one another such that it causes flux-compression/switch/and expansion, with no backwards repulsion. - i can do this only in one arrangement and it it not quite circular so doesnt work with this.
thus far with the magnets i have, i cant find two mags, or sets of mags that actually make this occur spontaneously within a perfect circular rotation, with any more energy out than i put in.
FW, there are a few things wrong with your hypothesis..
1. It was a metal table.
2. After aquiring sync Al picks the device up and turns it on it's side... and IMO it does not slow down enough when he does this.
Personally I wish Al would have shown us the bottom side of his working OCPMM...
That may have yielded some clues.
And I agree wholeheartedly with sm0ky's above statement.
Interestingly, I?ve been emphasizing this point over and over again--that what matters is the magnetic field, not the physical dimensions of the magnets which although seemingly matching in shape differ considerably from each other. I?ve been saying that before the appearance of @alsetalokin and during the times we were trying to replicate his device. Recall that I posted here a number of kgauss vs. angle of rotation graphs of my device and I was insisting that @alsetalokin should measure his and post it here if he is serious about others replicating the effect he demonstrated. Thus, I can?t agree more with what you say regarding the role of the fields in that replication (and in any replication for that matter).
He never did that, didn?t he?
As for the ?active? participation, we?ve seen this done before by other hoaxers. Do you recall that Mike claiming to have reproduced Bedini?s device? Oh, how cooperative he was ? Until he wetted everybody?s appetite only to disappear suddenly and to never show up again. Same pattern. Don?t get fooled by that. And, please, no one was harassing him, that poor slob who was using the weakest of the weak--@overconfident--for his devious ploy. Please ?
As for this:
QuoteIf this were to 'work', (magnetically speaking) theres only one way it CAN work, i described this about 90 pages ago, it would have to have the rotor and stator in perfect proportion to one another such that it causes flux-compression/switch/and expansion, with no backwards repulsion. - i can do this only in one arrangement and it it not quite circular so doesnt work with this.
it doesn?t explain how the self-sustaining run is achieved. If you can formulate it better, maybe analytically with formulae, it probably will make sense. The way you describe it now is just not clear. Flux compression requires work. How is the work done by, say, the rotor more than compensated by spontaneous work done by the stator? There maybe something to it, I can sense it intuitively but has to be described more clearly. The mechanism of this ever persisting overcompensated juggling of energy between the rotor and stator isn?t at all evident.
Hey all
We try too build a fake? why not, i am try too build a very very small motor in stator and see what happens?
Its a new competition. ;D ;D ;D
Regards
Ho will win the competition? ;D ;D ;D
And that person pot a video on youtube, and then draw back.
And all people say, o lord how did he do it? ;D ;D ;D
And it will be a new mystery ;D ;D ;D
And only the winner nows.
And over 200 replay's.
Regards
Is it possible to do this with an AC motor, or does it have to be done with a DC motor (seeing as most of the inner workings are removed)
What if it is all about speed = static electricity
Plastic and friction
http://www.alaska.net/~natnkell/staticgen.htm
Regards ;D
Quote from: Flying_Wizard on March 18, 2008, 03:09:49 PM
Is it possible to do this with an AC motor, or does it have to be done with a DC motor (seeing as most of the inner workings are removed)
Try and see what happens, i will try a small motor from a harddisc
Regards
I still think that the central hole for the rotor is off centre and is creating a harmonic effect but have yet to find time to do the math.
Well all whipmagers i am going to bed now, hope you going to do a very god fake all of you.
Regards
Quote from: Omnibus on March 18, 2008, 09:04:12 AM
it doesn?t explain how the self-sustaining run is achieved. If you can formulate it better, maybe analytically with formulae, it probably will make sense. The way you describe it now is just not clear. Flux compression requires work. How is the work done by, say, the rotor more than compensated by spontaneous work done by the stator? There maybe something to it, I can sense it intuitively but has to be described more clearly. The mechanism of this ever persisting overcompensated juggling of energy between the rotor and stator isn?t at all evident.
Omni,It's still my opinion that Al's self-sustaining rotation might have been caused by
micro-oscillations in the stator and/or rotor, as I tried to demonstrate in my Lego video. These oscillations might have been induced by Schumann resonance modes, which would explain the 7 Hz and 19 Hz speed plateaus. As well, they might have been induced by vibrations in the table or other environmental phenomenon. Again, atmospheric electrodynamics in Canada are very strong (nearer to the magnetic North) -- if that's where Al lives -- and Al's device might have simply tapped into the naturally occurring "free" or "ambient" energy that Tesla wrote about.
(Metaphysically speaking, Alsetalokin and Nikola Tesla might share the same space/time or time/space. :D It depends on your view of reincarnation, channeling, evolution of consciousness, etc.)
Cheers :)
Yada..
.
@ Omni,
when you have a "monopole" and a dipole - theres an area near the meridian where the force is max at the perpendicular, and null on the plane of the field. If the two magnets are rotating opposite one another
(as occurs in AGW) in the proper allignment, there is no repulsion, commng together, the flux compresses, or rather moves out of the way with no force, as the two poles come off of that plane there starts to be force, but they are already passed the meridian, so the force builds up until it collapses and snaps back into its 'normal' position. this pushes both magnets away from each other in the direction of rotation.
I'm not entirely sure this can even occur in a circular motion, a series of arcs for sure. similar to Ed's motor.
it may very well be possible in a circular motion, if the proportions were right between rotor/stator, but then again, the conditions may simply not be compatible with that shape... who knows.. theres a near infinite number of combinations we could try...
That has to be developed further because it isn't clear how the energy out of no source comes about through that compression.
Quote from: Omnibus on March 18, 2008, 11:19:58 PM
That has to be developed further because it isn't clear how the energy out of no source comes about through that compression.
i keep trying to write this out, but it doesnt make sense in terms of standard magnetics. You have to view the node as a monopole for it to make sense. - even though the node is actually an inverted quadrapole.
since one pole is artifically suppressed, there is only one active pole semi-spherically around the inner and outer sides of the node. This forms a forced-monopole. we'll assume the N and S sides are equal, but in reality they vary slightly..
When the monopole approaches the like-pole of the di-pole rotary-stator (at a point passed the meridian)
the magnetic flux is parallel to the direction of rotation - and therefore the force is perpendicular
this puts pressure outwards on the shaft, but nothing negative against the direction of rotation - so the two magnets continue to turn inwards, without disruption of momentum. - up to a maximum flux compression, after which point the flux meridian (which has now been mishapen by the other like field) snaps back into position, imparting a force onto both rotational magnets which is perpendicular to the flux - when this happens the magnets are turned 90-degrees with respect ot one another, so the force is in the direction of rotation.
its not exactly as clear cut as i that - this actually occurs as a ramp function with increasing force up to the perpendicular point (then becomes negative inverse) on both ends of the field. Which is kind of why im thinking it cant work with 2 perfect circles... - and even though AL's device is magnetically a bubbly-octagon,
the point where the the rotor and stators interact: the fields are essentially "circular".
1/2 of the di-pole , and a rounded surface of the forced-monopole.
the other problem that arises with perfect circles is their proportion: they have to be proportionate such that the fields interact exactly in the same manner at each passing. - this sounds simple, but i cant find two circles that do this - at least not with any configuration of 8 or 10 monopoles around the rotor.....
This has prevented me from verifying the assumption i made about about circles being possible or not here.
[edit]
Who is the winner to do the first fake? ;D ;D ;D
I have pot a small DC-motor on stator, but it is very difficult to sync to the rotor.
motor in rotor? ??? ??? ???
Regards
Quote from: ezzob on March 19, 2008, 06:19:28 PM
Who is the winner to do the first fake? ;D ;D ;D
I have pot a small DC-motor on stator, but it is very difficult to sync to the rotor.
motor in rotor? ??? ??? ???
Regards
\
yes it should work better to put the motor on the rotor - and let the rotor 'drag' the stator around with it.
What I want to know is will this fake start running in the same manner as the one in Al's video. ::)
Hmmm ??? ??? ???
It is confused that none build a fake yet? :-\ :-\ :-\
I don't have yet 8) 8) 8)
But someone Will Son ;D ;D ;D
regards 8)
Hmm :-\
This is strange, yesterday there were 198 pages in this thread and today there are only 75 ?
the MIB's have destroyed the evidence of this technology.
all that remains is useless information and conjecture.
bah, non sense!
Stephan changed the amount of post visible per page, instead of 15 its now 40 approx per page!!
For anyone still interested, some new comments from Al over at fizzx today...
http://www.fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?t=337&start=30
Nothing revealing, just some talk.
Quote from: ken_nyus on April 16, 2008, 02:27:57 PM
For anyone still interested, some new comments from Al over at fizzx today...
http://www.fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?t=337&start=30
Nothing revealing, just some talk.
Thank you Ken. :)
Is this impudence or what?
http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?p=3108#3108
@alsetalokin: ?And others have done this too, and not seen any acceleration. Why? Because all those "replicators" were trying to make a free energy device, a MPMM, from permanent magnets. This is, of course, impossible.
Not a single "replicator" that I know of, has actually tried to replicate exactly what was shown in the video.
Everybody has tried to "replicate" what they wanted to see, which is a free energy device. Sorry, ain't no such animal, as I have said over and over and over.
Of course, every third poster, practically, on overunity.com DOES CLAIM to have some kind of overunity device, and Stefan IS making money off those claims from his ads, and we recall that STEORN HAS CLAIMED this too, so I don't know what the fuss is about here. They have claims that they cannot back up, even though lots of money has changed hands, and nobody's really upset. I can back up every claim I've made, in fact they have all been independently reproduced by now, except for the main effect, and I've never claimed any overunity, and I personally am out nearly a grand on this project, but everybody's mad at me. And they wonder why I am reluctant to post or carry on a dialog.?
To continue posting under the circumstances, let alone attack Stefan, is a sheer demonstration of low intelligence. His employers must be out of their minds to keep such an obvious muddled mind and deceiver, unless they are in on it, using him as a lackey.
Any useful news about the OC MPMM Magnet Motor?
I haven't read all 75 pages....so if anyone are able to sum up the content of these pages somehow, it would be great.
Vidar
Summary::::
Al made a YouTube Video, showing a promising device. He has utterly failed to represent this device in any replicatable construct, despite now hundreds of attempts.....
some 3,000 pages later across 9 threads, and noone has been able to achieve anything close to a working device based on this design.
Al still claims to this day, that his video (and the apparent acceleration of the device) is authentic.
But he himself has been unable to replicate it. and the original has been destroyed by its creator.
OC MPMM R.I.P.
Hi blokes,
Sorry for my English.
My question is :
Had this "Alsetalokin" guy frankly/openly ever confessed/admitted/recognized etc..
that his 'device' was a fraud/cheat/deceit etc..
I have the feeling that he is playing with words and also with our patience.
Is he not?
Best
he has gone even a step further, and blatently denied such accusations. claiming that his device was authentic.
though he insists that the observed effect in the video is not overunity.
Hi Sm0ky2,
So, as far as I can catch it:
He is not cheating.
His device is genuine.
His device is not showing any 'OU' behavior.
OK. Perhaps has he a personal interpretation of 'OU' ???
To me, this guy is not clear and I must confess that I'm confused
(and even irascible) with this kind of person.
Best
smOky2 wrote:
Quote...he has gone even a step further, and blatently denied such accusations. claiming that his device was authentic, though he insists that the observed effect in the video is not overunity.
Here therefore appears to be a conflict in any reasoning behind not being available and supportive in the detail of the device, particularly if the observed effect was little more than an interesting observation and nothing to do with potential exploitation of an Over-Unit device. Had a lot of the guesswork been removed then perhaps the many dedicated experimenters, expending considerable time and effort - at their cost, may have been able to reproduce the effects claimed in at-least one-or-two incarnations.
With little more to base personal decisions upon about this device, other than what the elusive Alsetalokin claims himself, plus the reported destruction of the
only working original which rarely fit the profile of a dedicated experimenter (how many hours must he have spent on achieving a "
working" model?), and the considerable number of fruitless attempts at replication with the many different permutations based around the original, I cannot reasonably accept that this is devoid of at-least some deception.
Being realistic, fervent claims and blatent denials from similar claimants rarely carry much weight to sustain "the dream" indefinitely. Time to move on then...
Such a pity :(
All the best,
FunkyJive
Quote from: sm0ky2 on April 23, 2008, 08:23:53 PM
Summary::::
Al made a YouTube Video, showing a promising device. He has utterly failed to represent this device in any replicatable construct, despite now hundreds of attempts.....
some 3,000 pages later across 9 threads, and noone has been able to achieve anything close to a working device based on this design.
Al still claims to this day, that his video (and the apparent acceleration of the device) is authentic.
But he himself has been unable to replicate it. and the original has been destroyed by its creator.
OC MPMM R.I.P.
Thanks for your help!
Btw: Isn't it obvious that one would destroy a working OU motor? What interest do anyone have in a true OU motor? Give me a break ;D. The motor is "destroyed" due to some non-provable claims.
Br.
Vidar
Quote from: sm0ky2 on April 23, 2008, 11:19:29 PM
he has gone even a step further, and blatently denied such accusations. claiming that his device was authentic.
though he insists that the observed effect in the video is not overunity.
Isn't that a paradox? The motor is accelerating, fighting against loss in bearings and air resistance. At the same time hi claims the motor is not OU ??? Give me another brake :D
Br.
Vidar
I believe the correct term would be "reportedly destroyed", as casting the device into an open bin on camera (if I recall correctly) is hardly as convincing or decisive as smashing the thing to bits with a hammer whilst running ;)
There's also a subtle but important difference between claiming that a device is "not OU", and not claiming that a device is OU. I'm not immediately aware of exactly what was said by the claimant, though reportedly operating for several hours would be reasonable grounds for discussions to at-least intelligently and shame-lessly debate such a possibility. In all fairness though, statements of this nature can easily get lossed or confused in the translation.
If I myself had developed or stumbled across such a working device, I would then invite interested individuals (even friends and associates at a private gathering if necessary) to attend demonstration and study the device further - to encourage collective interest and comment, and with others then able to publicly attest to a working model and record their own video's of the event in a suitably-lit environment.
This would then go some way in serving to reduce prolonged and concentrated scepticism and pressures that (again) reportedly led to the distruction of the device through sustained frustration. With the many convincing fakers looking to steal the limelight, what else might one reasonably expect?
However, I'm not aware of anyone here or anywhere else who is willing and able to personally confirm operation of the device by having seen it, in the flesh, with their own eyes. If this is the case then please step forward... anyone?...
I'm sorry if I've misinterpreted anything or have missed something important buried in this lengthy thread, but as it currently stands the Alsetalokin story just doesn't appear to stack up :-\
All the best,
FunkyJive
Quote from: Low-Q on April 24, 2008, 03:40:52 PM
Quote from: sm0ky2 on April 23, 2008, 08:23:53 PM
Summary::::
Al made a YouTube Video, showing a promising device. He has utterly failed to represent this device in any replicatable construct, despite now hundreds of attempts.....
some 3,000 pages later across 9 threads, and noone has been able to achieve anything close to a working device based on this design.
Al still claims to this day, that his video (and the apparent acceleration of the device) is authentic.
But he himself has been unable to replicate it. and the original has been destroyed by its creator.
OC MPMM R.I.P.
Thanks for your help!
Btw: Isn't it obvious that one would destroy a working OU motor? What interest do anyone have in a true OU motor? Give me a break ;D. The motor is "destroyed" due to some non-provable claims.
Br.
Vidar
That's the whole thing... AL never made these claims... OTHER PEOPLE DID!! people that watched his video..
now: did AL make the video appear to be misleading? i must say i got the same impression that everyone else did from watching it.
but AL himself never claimed the things that everyone else said HIS motor "did".
The only distinguishable facts that AL has confirmed is:
1) he spun the rotor up - putting energy into it.
2) when he took away some of the 'drag', the motor spun faster. (i.e. stopping the other stators)
is this any different than a kid hanging on the edge of a whirl-go-round, then jumping towards the center??
is it our own faults for making the (false) assumptions of apparent "OU" ??
is it AL's responsibility to track down hundreds of would-be replicators and stop them from trying to recreate his works?? or to hop around to 9 different forums and correct all the false conjecture being passed around??
There are a lot of lessons to be learned from this experience.
Hello
I built a device very close to what Al did in the second video. It was remarkable and a enjoyable project, in fact I still give it a spin up every now and then.
Truthfully I could really give a hoot about OU that Al state was NOT in the device, all I want to see was it increase in rpm and or maintain rpm for a short time and i would have been all smiles. Well I have to be honest i am still smiling when i give it a spin up ;D
Regards
Bill
.
@ALL replicators still interested
RE: Rubber mounts discovered in 2nd Video
After looking closely at Al's second "trashcan" video it's apparent that he mounted his spindle on rubber shock mounts. ::) It's possible that these mounts allow the rotor to wobble in such a way that "favorable" resonance conditions might occur (useful flux oscillations).
Below are two images that show the spindle and rubber mounts. If you want to make your Whipmag "wobble like Al's," then you might try inserting some rubber between the spindle and base.
Notes:
.. 1. Inserting rubber mounts should not change the rotor height above the base (i.e. maintain relationship between the rotor and stator magnets).
.. 2. The rotor should not only move up-and-down but also teeter side-to-side, thus the hole in the base plate might need to be opened to permit the spindle to pivot.
.. 3. Al's rotor might have had eccentricity problems as well -- exacerbating the wobble -- thus some lopsidedness might be good.
Cheers :)
Yada ..
Quote from: vipond50 on April 25, 2008, 12:57:45 AM
Hello
I built a device very close to what Al did in the second video. It was remarkable and a enjoyable project, in fact I still give it a spin up every now and then.
Truthfully I could really give a hoot about OU that Al state was NOT in the device, all I want to see was it increase in rpm and or maintain rpm for a short time and i would have been all smiles. Well I have to be honest i am still smiling when i give it a spin up ;D
Regards
Bill
Hi Bill, so are you saying you achieved acceleration or an extended spin down? Did you employ the
two gear wise stators and then stop them to achieve further acceleration? Nobody has reported
acceleration except possibly momentarily. Very unclear what you are saying. Please elaborate!
@ duck ,
with my replications:
achieving acceleration after stopping the two extraneous stators was achieved early on in this project.
this is the sole reason i did away with those two extra stators after my first replication. The dont do anything good for maintaining momentum, they in fact add unwanted drag to the rotor, bit of an oddity that the momentum is somehow "transfered back" to the rotor when you stop them, but still not any additional energy into the rotor, - rather it is simply returning to (close to ) its original speed that was imparted to it in the initial spin-up. [ like the kid on the whirl-go-round, or a figure skater pulling her arms inwards].
Most of my focus instead went into attempting to get the AWG-Lock to add an extra "push" to the stator.
which i was never able to accomplish, except manually step-for-step, and that is grossly debatable, as to wether or not the manual allignment is adding energy in the form of flux-compression.
i was unable to find any arrangements of stator/rotor that worked together while spinning in the manner which was proposed.
not by the original specs or any other ratio i could come up with. at very best i had a fly-wheel with a geared stator-magnet riding in its field - which eventually stopped.
Have you seen the Magnetron Toy. I have one and it is fascinating. I wonder if the effects are the same. You can see a video on the following link. Watch how it speeds up and transfers some energy from one arm to the other but eventually slows down and stops.
http://www.grand-illusions.com/toycollection/magnetron/
Bill
yeah i made a couple of "fairfax" polygons out of GeoMags, that did the same thing.
Quote from: attack duck on April 26, 2008, 11:07:03 PM
Quote from: vipond50 on April 25, 2008, 12:57:45 AM
Hello
I built a device very close to what Al did in the second video. It was remarkable and a enjoyable project, in fact I still give it a spin up every now and then.
Truthfully I could really give a hoot about OU that Al state was NOT in the device, all I want to see was it increase in rpm and or maintain rpm for a short time and i would have been all smiles. Well I have to be honest i am still smiling when i give it a spin up ;D
Regards
Bill
Hi Bill, so are you saying you achieved acceleration or an extended spin down? Did you employ the
two gear wise stators and then stop them to achieve further acceleration? Nobody has reported
acceleration except possibly momentarily. Very unclear what you are saying. Please elaborate!
Hi Duck
No, I am smiling because of the project and the occasional spin up.
I have NO maintained operation in anyway shape or form with the current configuration.
Sorry for the confusion
Bill
@All
Here is the lip on Al's rotor, shown against the recess in the base plate.
Cheers :)
Yada ..
EDIT: It was later noted that the recess in the base is on the underside only, and that the rotor lip was not intentional and likely insignificant.
Right chaps,
I did NOT make a replica wipmag but I have been playing around with a similar concept, weighted wheel ( rotor ) and very light wheel ( stator ) and nothing like the dimensions of Al's device but I have found that it is possible to get the rotor to accelerate for brief periods with loads of different configurations ;D ... by spinning the rotor by hand then the stator. When I have finished messing about with what I am doing at the mo I will take some rpm readings and try to work out what is going on. Sorry if some people have already sussed this out or I'm stating the obvious. :)
New videos were produced from Alsetalokin. If you're interested, you can find them here:
> http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=crapAVI7zQ4 (http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=crapAVI7zQ4) (part 1) - 2000 fps
> http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=JK_1Bo5pqNA (http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=JK_1Bo5pqNA) (part 2) - 2400 fps
> http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj_lP5QjfXk (http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj_lP5QjfXk) (part 3) - 4800 fps
> http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=WMbPj8kTr8A (http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=WMbPj8kTr8A) (part 4) desynch - 4800 fps
> http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=X2NHCW8BuhI (http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=X2NHCW8BuhI) (part 5) manual spin -800 fps
;)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpeswiki.com%2Fimages%2F3%2F36%2FAlsvideo01.jpg&hash=bf7201f620433568fbc7b8903d3f1f7fa15095a0)
Thanks niente.
Another video from Alsetalokin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHcodnO-U10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHcodnO-U10) :D
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg2.freeimagehosting.net%2Fuploads%2F3e06e74ce1.jpg&hash=c936e565bddf7b0eda57bd7848ed456601b502a7)
And this is a slightly better filtered version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD0aEURxHyk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD0aEURxHyk)
Thanks Niente.
I guess this confirms my suspicions that those "Trash-Can" theatrics were indeed just that, and that the motor wasn't discarded after-all ::)
I'm also struggling to understand why Alsetalokin's video's, past and present, to demonstrate a working unit, are invariably conducted in dim or poorly-lit conditions. Surely it can't be beyond the wit of man to turn a few lights on when recording a video and check that the detail is generally viewable before posting, or take what is after-all a small portable unit to another room and record with natural light. Even the most prolific fakers could manage that.
With all that's gone before and the many fruitless attempts at duplication, the latest video's depicting absolutely nothing new are hardly worth the mouse-click to watch.
Until someone else with some credibility were able to attest to seeing it work in the flesh, or replicate anything remotely like the effects claimed, for me it's time to be realistic, say "Bye-Bye WhipMag RIP", and sadly move on.
Incidentally... Gwhy! - Do you have any further progress or supporting observations to report from your experiments to-date?
All the best,
FunkyJive
Quote from: FunkyJive on May 24, 2008, 12:00:49 PM
Incidentally... Gwhy! - Do you have any further progress or supporting observations to report from your experiments to-date?
I have not managed to set anything up yet to try and see what is going on. What I would like to do is messure the speed of the rotor as well as the speed of the stator at the same time. My theory is at some point in the rotation the rotor and stator hits a sweet spot that causes the rotor to speed up but the stator to slow down and this is why the rotor only appears to speed up once per manual spin and it is also not consistant ( one spin it will and another it wont ) . The idea of messuring the stator at the same time will hopefully show me. If the stator remains on a constant rundown speed when the rotor speeds up then bingo !.... ( I think :P ) it will be all about the phase. The best results I was getting was with 4 HDD mags stuck onto a disk ( rotor ) with a smaller dia stator with 6 small neo mags stuck to it all pointing outwards. I will try to set something up again and take some pictures or video.
To omnibus:
From House Painter:
Glad to see someone that doesn't suffer fools gladly. This reminds me of the the post "I am not one to get excited" or some such, Where he had 18 volts on his meter, on a9v battery, when in reality he had a bad meter. I have to agree with you that OU doesn't exist; at least as the way it is being proposed here. I am not, nor will I ever, be an expert on these OU motors, but I can see a scam like this a mile away.
This is not to degade anyone who reads or posts here. However I would like to see more rational discussions on the subject. I realise I am no more than a newbie, whatever that means. However, there is an old saying I am reminded of; " anybody can teach anybody, but not many can learn from nobody."
A quote from a guy at Nasa "Rocket science is easy, carpentry is hard,"
To: niente;
Nice to another Baldur's Gate fan.
Sorry if these questions have been answered, but my mind has been on fire about this technology for a few years now and I thought I'd ask you fine people-
1. Why is it (realistically, aside from the gov conspiracies) that almost none of these demonstrations ever show the overunity being converted into any sort of useful power (like charging a battery)?
2. Why is it that this motor can't be hooked up to any sort of lightweight gearing system that ensures super precise timing on each turn? I realize this introduces unwanted friction, but if it is truly over-unity it seems possible that the net energy gain would make it worthwhile. One guess is that the imperfection is what allows this particular motor to work.
3. Why is it so impossible to find blue prints for this thing? If they're in this forum somewhere, forgive this question, but I've yet to find them. I would build this TODAY if I had the blue prints.
4. What is the size-to-power-output ratio? Has anyone tested this? Does it even depend on size?
5. Is this scalable? I mean, can I build a 10' diameter version and have it still work or is there a limit?
6. Does this thing stop working when you apply motion to it? I mean, if I were hypothetically driving my battery-powered car and had this thing running to re-charge the batteries (assuming it ever had enough power to be useful in this manner), would it stop working if I were to make sudden turns, speed up suddenly or stop abruptly?
7. Given that the answer to the above question is 'no', would it then pose a serious threat to the oil industry?
8. If this thing really does break a law of thermodynamics -- does that mean we just make the minor adjustment to the laws or does it change everything?
9. Has anyone given thought to the gyroscopic implications (benefits and caveats)?
10. How long does this thing run before dying out on its own?
I'll continue reading to see if I can answer any of these questions but if anyone can answer, please do. I'd be very interested to see what you have to say.
Scott
Quote from: scottmweaver on June 16, 2008, 03:33:03 PM
Sorry if these questions have been answered, but my mind has been on fire about this technology for a few years now and I thought I'd ask you fine people-
1. Why is it (realistically, aside from the gov conspiracies) that almost none of these demonstrations ever show the overunity being converted into any sort of useful power (like charging a battery)?
2. Why is it that this motor can't be hooked up to any sort of lightweight gearing system that ensures super precise timing on each turn? I realize this introduces unwanted friction, but if it is truly over-unity it seems possible that the net energy gain would make it worthwhile. One guess is that the imperfection is what allows this particular motor to work.
3. Why is it so impossible to find blue prints for this thing? If they're in this forum somewhere, forgive this question, but I've yet to find them. I would build this TODAY if I had the blue prints.
4. What is the size-to-power-output ratio? Has anyone tested this? Does it even depend on size?
5. Is this scalable? I mean, can I build a 10' diameter version and have it still work or is there a limit?
6. Does this thing stop working when you apply motion to it? I mean, if I were hypothetically driving my battery-powered car and had this thing running to re-charge the batteries (assuming it ever had enough power to be useful in this manner), would it stop working if I were to make sudden turns, speed up suddenly or stop abruptly?
7. Given that the answer to the above question is 'no', would it then pose a serious threat to the oil industry?
8. If this thing really does break a law of thermodynamics -- does that mean we just make the minor adjustment to the laws or does it change everything?
9. Has anyone given thought to the gyroscopic implications (benefits and caveats)?
10. How long does this thing run before dying out on its own?
I'll continue reading to see if I can answer any of these questions but if anyone can answer, please do. I'd be very interested to see what you have to say.
Scott
The answer to 1 and 2 is that the motor is not overunity. Given that, do you even care about the rest?
Hi Utilitarian.
I'll try to answer your questions as best I can from entirely my own perspective, accepting that I don't have all the answers and there are doubtless people here that have dedicated fields of knowledge and understanding better than I. However, please note that this motor has yet to be replicated to reflect the claims by Alsetalokin, and until that happens then this is all it is - simply claims by an apparently elusive character with a few theatrics thrown in ::) ;)
1. Why is it (realistically, aside from the gov conspiracies) that almost none of these demonstrations ever show the overunity being converted into any sort of useful power (like charging a battery)?
There have been claims and even books written on the subject, though something tells me that it would take a unique type of charlatan to persist with twenty or more years of experimentation and very expensive model building if they had the slightest doubt of whether their technology worked (recalling... Bearden, Bedini, even Tesla, etc...etc...). However, it's inescapable that the world economy is fundamentally founded on supplier dependency and cash leverage from the consumption of fossil fuels, so if anything tangible were invented then a targeted campaign to keep inventors quiet remains a very distinct probability in my book.
2. Why is it that this motor can't be hooked up to any sort of lightweight gearing system that ensures super precise timing on each turn? I realize this introduces unwanted friction, but if it is truly over-unity it seems possible that the net energy gain would make it worthwhile. One guess is that the imperfection is what allows this particular motor to work.
It is really "Over Unity?", as Scottmweaver rightly questioned ;) It's important to remain thoroughly open and objective, no matter how much one might want to believe in the claims of others.
3. Why is it so impossible to find blue prints for this thing? If they're in this forum somewhere, forgive this question, but I've yet to find them. I would build this TODAY if I had the blue prints.
Reportedly Alsetalokin has provided information, though there's good reason to question the validity and extent of the information provided if the claims were indeed true. Call me an ol' sceptic but something doesn't quite ring true in all of this.
4. What is the size-to-power-output ratio? Has anyone tested this? Does it even depend on size?
Zero... well... negative actually ;D
5. Is this scalable? I mean, can I build a 10' diameter version and have it still work or is there a limit?
You could certainly build a 10" version, but would doubtless just require more energy input to sustain rotation ;D
6. Does this thing stop working when you apply motion to it? I mean, if I were hypothetically driving my battery-powered car and had this thing running to re-charge the batteries (assuming it ever had enough power to be useful in this manner), would it stop working if I were to make sudden turns, speed up suddenly or stop abruptly?
If it were possible then the generated energy would have to be used to sustain rotation, but would also have to include overcoming gyroscopic forces endeavouring to counter rotation with a fixed axle - based on it's orientation in the vehicle.
7. Given that the answer to the above question is 'no', would it then pose a serious threat to the oil industry?
Current evidence would suggest that this particular incarnation would only pose a threat to personal finances, health and safety ;D ;D ;D
8. If this thing really does break a law of thermodynamics -- does that mean we just make the minor adjustment to the laws or does it change everything?
It is my belief that the laws are "incomplete", in that COE relates to occurrences (energy in and out) in a fixed time domain. However, relative time-shift occurs in the micro domain all of the time. Consequently, with working knowledge that I'm not at liberty to expand upon, it is my personal belief that OU (in the traditional sense) may be realised by the effects of time-shift at micro level transferring to the macro domain - otherwise known as the fourth dimension. Here's something that I just looked up for you to get you started...
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,996610,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,996610,00.html)
9. Has anyone given thought to the gyroscopic implications (benefits and caveats)?[/url]
I can only say so much on the public forums, though suffice to say that rotation is distinctly the key ingredient to this ;)
If there were gyroscopic benefits to be had then I would respectfully suggest that you build a gyroscope ;D
10. How long does this thing run before dying out on its own?
Varies. Some have spoken of an evident increase in speed before dying down, but this can be explained by a phased resonant relationship betwen the various forces existent between the various moving parts (will vary, based on a variety of physical factors). Think of a skater spinning with outstretched arms, then drawing them in which causes an increase in rotational speed but NOT an increase in rotational energy. However, if he were to hold his arms in, he would still come to rest nevertheless.
All the best,
FunkyJive
Quote from: scottmweaver on June 16, 2008, 03:33:03 PM
Sorry if these questions have been answered, but my mind has been on fire about this technology for a few years now and I thought I'd ask you fine people-
Funky Jive's answers were pretty good. I just thought I'd add a few brief responses of my own.
Quote from: scottmweaver
1. Why is it (realistically, aside from the gov conspiracies) that almost none of these demonstrations ever show the overunity being converted into any sort of useful power (like charging a battery)?
According to Alsetalokin, his WhipMag has powered a small propeller for a while. I'm not sure just how long that was. That does not represent a lot of power. However, he seems to think the effect can be explained without violating any laws of thermodynamics.
Quote from: scottmweaver
2. Why is it that this motor can't be hooked up to any sort of lightweight gearing system that ensures super precise timing on each turn? I realize this introduces unwanted friction, but if it is truly over-unity it seems possible that the net energy gain would make it worthwhile. One guess is that the imperfection is what allows this particular motor to work.
We still don't know what the timing might be. And there is presently only one of these things in existence that demonstrates the effects shown in the video. As soon as there is a successful replication, this will be studied in greater detail. Once we understand things better, I'm sure there are a number of ways it can be optimized.
Quote from: scottmweaver
3. Why is it so impossible to find blue prints for this thing? If they're in this forum somewhere, forgive this question, but I've yet to find them. I would build this TODAY if I had the blue prints.
There are some drawings here in this thread and in other places. Best places to look are:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:OC_MPMM_Magnet_Motor
and
http://www.ospmm.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8
Active development is still proceeding at:
http://www.fizzx.com/viewforum.php?f=16
Quote from: scottmweaver
4. What is the size-to-power-output ratio? Has anyone tested this? Does it even depend on size?
Nobody knows (If Alsetalokin knows, he isn't telling).
Quote from: scottmweaver
5. Is this scalable? I mean, can I build a 10' diameter version and have it still work or is there a limit?
Nobody knows for sure. There is probably a practical limit on size. Just try and find some 12 inch diameter diametrically magnetized neodymium cylinders. And if you do manage to locate some, don't bother telling me how much they cost.
Quote from: scottmweaver
6. Does this thing stop working when you apply motion to it? I mean, if I were hypothetically driving my battery-powered car and had this thing running to re-charge the batteries (assuming it ever had enough power to be useful in this manner), would it stop working if I were to make sudden turns, speed up suddenly or stop abruptly?
The only working model was able to be picked up and tilted in the video. So there is some tolerance. I don't know of any testing to determine the limits.
Quote from: scottmweaver
7. Given that the answer to the above question is 'no', would it then pose a serious threat to the oil industry?
The answer would not have to be "no" for it to pose a threat to the oil industry,
providing the device can in fact produce more energy than it consumes. Since there have not been any successful replications so far, there is no way to tell.
Quote from: scottmweaver
8. If this thing really does break a law of thermodynamics -- does that mean we just make the minor adjustment to the laws or does it change everything?
If it breaks the laws of thermodynamics, there is a lot that will need to be rewritten.
Quote from: scottmweaver
9. Has anyone given thought to the gyroscopic implications (benefits and caveats)?
Some, but not much. We are trying to focus on replication. We have considered how gyroscopic actions might contribute to or detract from the effect. Once we have another working device, there are a number of experiments we would like to perform. First things first.
Quote from: scottmweaver
10. How long does this thing run before dying out on its own?
The longest run I am aware of was about 7 hours. Alsetalokin stopped that run prior to going to work. It did not quit on its own.
OC
@alsetalokin is a proven hoaxer of the worst type who should be banned from all forums. In addition to other hoaxers, from benign ones who are simply incompetent to those deceiving others for profit, @alsetalokin seems to serve a devious agenda to ?punish? the "fools" who believe in the possibility to build devices producing continuously energy out of nothing (production of energy out of nothing discontinuously is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt) by deliberate leading them into a dead end. There have been several other attempts for such ?punishment? most notorious of which is that of some Mike who led a significant segment of the community to believe he has successfully replicated Bedini?s overunity claim only to disappear suddenly without a trace. Obviously @alsetalokin is serving an agenda of his employers who don?t seem to be bothered by the scam he is pulling on us and are still keeping him as their employee. It appears that Steorn also need his obvious hoax and are still not banning him from their forum.
Quote from: Omnibus on June 17, 2008, 12:31:25 AM
@alsetalokin is a proven hoaxer of the worst type
And
your proof is ?? ::)
Do you recall @alsetalokin's statement that he has proved that something false is false while in the same breath claiming seven hours run without an external energy source? Typical hoaxer laughing in your face.
Omni -- Glad to have you back!!
You should check out the thread "roll on June 20th",, we could use your input on the superimposed field theory, as it may apply to this device.
Hey everyone. I'm new to this and I'm young so please hang on with me. But what I got is that Al made his magnet motor and cannot replicate his findings..no one can, correct?
I haven't read all the pages..I'd probably go insane if I did :P, but has anyone looked at the physics behind it? I know Al stated that he doesn't know why everything was happening per say. I mean if the science doesn't add up, we'll know it's a fake.
I'm sure someone has looked at the physics. Can anyone review any math calculated that doesn't add up or anything of the sort?
Thanks
Hey everyone. I'm new to this and I'm young so please hang on with me. But what I got is that Al made his magnet motor and cannot replicate his findings..no one can, correct?
I haven't read all the pages..I'd probably go insane if I did Tongue, but has anyone looked at the physics behind it? I know Al stated that he doesn't know why everything was happening per say. I mean if the science doesn't add up, we'll know it's a fake.
I'm sure someone has looked at the physics. Can anyone review any math calculated that doesn't add up or anything of the sort?
Thanks
Question:
Once the RPMs are known for the 8-magnet rotor and the middle magnet, would it not be possible, in theory, to render the 2 other magnets redundant with a timing belt and pulleys of ratio necessary?
For example:
rotor spins 5000 rpm
middle magnet spins 2000 rpm
You would have a pully system of 5:2 or 2.5:1 or whatever. (I may have the RPMs backwards)
As you hand spin the rotor, the middle magnet would be forced to be in sync by the timing. I suppose friction would play a part, but who knows for sure yet what it would do?
Anyway, just my $0.02.
Quote from: athlete501 on June 23, 2008, 09:19:47 AM
Hey everyone. I'm new to this and I'm young so please hang on with me. But what I got is that Al made his magnet motor and cannot replicate his findings..no one can, correct?
I haven't read all the pages..I'd probably go insane if I did Tongue, but has anyone looked at the physics behind it? I know Al stated that he doesn't know why everything was happening per say. I mean if the science doesn't add up, we'll know it's a fake.
I'm sure someone has looked at the physics. Can anyone review any math calculated that doesn't add up or anything of the sort?
Thanks
The physics behind the movement are going to be impossible to calculate. Human power is used to give the initial spin to all the moving parts. Even if we knew the exact amount of energy imparted, it would take some really fancy physics to calculate it all. No one is going to spend that kind of time.
Quote from: utilitarian on June 26, 2008, 12:36:27 AM
The physics behind the movement are going to be impossible to calculate. Human power is used to give the initial spin to all the moving parts. Even if we knew the exact amount of energy imparted, it would take some really fancy physics to calculate it all. No one is going to spend that kind of time.
oh duh :D
Hi,
Has ANYONE successfully replicated the effects in this video... and got the rotor spinning for more than a few minutes?
No.
was a hoax probably used an off camera air compressor to spin it
anyone knows how to fake this video?
it was a rush, i miss al.
Hey all!
This is my very first posting in this forum and about free energy machines at all. I started to think about free energy systems a few weeks ago. The day before yesterday I started to develop a simple CAD model with standard industrial components. Yesterday I revised the model. Please see attached pics (model1, model2). Animation is done but too huge to submit (on youtube on request).
I wonder, if this synchronized system "has a chance to work". I could start building it, but if someone can explain to me, why this will not work, I'd better spare time and money.
I would be happy to receive any comments.
Marco (from Hamburg in Germany)
:
Hello Marco.
Setting the math aside for a moment, and given this tired thread of many unsuccessful experiments and trials on a similar theme, I would suggest that if you were going to try such a thing then you should do so with realistic expectations. However, should you have that nagging suspicion that you might be on to something then, if I were you, I would look at the true value from your experiments in either the proof or the disproof.
Although I believe that, in practice, forces around the rotor will prove to balance out and not actually sustain rotation indefinitely, if I were going to create such an experiment regardless then the first thing I would do is try to remove the attainment of natural equilibrium by design. In your artworks you show an equal number of inner magnets to outer magnets, although a Fibonacci ratio (of inner to outer magnets) could well be the best approach from the outset.
Anyway, good luck with your experiments should you wish to proceed, though as I say - you should do it to establish the truth either way, and not with the hope and expectation that it should work.
All the best,
FunkyJive
Is there anybody in the ,Brisbane- Australia (wynnum area) , that has the tools and time to machine up the parts needed
to make a new variation of these ideas.
My concept and first build used mecano and has massive slop but spun up with a lot of force .
I will be willing to pay for time and effort for the parts that are made .
My design ( standing on the shoulders of the great ideas on here ) cannot be found in any other plan here.
Can anybody help please.
Direct mail at pingu208@tpg.com.au if you have the time and carefactor to try a new concept
@twospin:
If you share your ideas here, I'm sure someone will build it. There are several people looking at these threads specifically for new ideas to try (like me, for example). After all, I understand that the OCMPMM (the original subject of this thread) started out that way. And just look at what's happened!
So, if you can publish a sketch or drawing, we might be able to tell you if your idea is new, and if it seems to be worth trying in a prototype. I assure you, the skills and motivation and tooling are there.
Thank you for the reply TinselKoala
I have been trying to figure out the best way to get the idea on paper and to explain what I mean.
I will take a few pictures and write an explanation of what I made and post it on here as soon as I can.
I'm new to this so please give me some time to reply.
Thank you for the quick response .
Maybe this can help TinselKoala.
I have added pics with a plan.
I can't see the drawing very well due to its low resolution, but I think I get the basic idea. My first impression is that there will be a very strong "cogging" or "wall" effect as the magnets of one wheel come into proximity with the other wheel's magnets, and the system will tend to lock at that point. The gearing seems symmetrical so the wheels will turn at exactly the same rates, but in opposite directions, so I'm not sure what benefit would come from the gearing.
Could you post the drawing in a higher res, so I can be sure of what I'm looking at?
Thanks--
TK
Hope this is a better pic
Sorry to have to tell you this, but your contraption won't work.
Your main problem is that you lack basic knowledge of magnetic flux lines and don't see the whole picture.
The magnets being shielded by the "high permeability material" isn't really shielded at all. It's pure attraction.
As the Hi Perm gets thinner along the track, the attraction effect declines and the material will get saturated.
The magnets being in the "small section" will be repelled strongly and your device will find equilibrium.
Dont forget that the attraction effect to the "Hi Perm" also creates backpull towards the thicker part of the area.
The backpull attraction contributes mostly in finding equilibrium.
This type of magnet motor shielding have been tried countless of times throughout history.
But the inventers didn't know that shielding doesn't remove the flux lines, it just reroutes them.
Thank you for the reply Ergo.
I did not guess about it getting saturated.
As they say, Back To The Drawing Board
Thank you for the reply Ergo.
I did not guess about it getting saturated.
As they say, Back To The Drawing Board
Quote from: TinselKoala on August 23, 2008, 10:35:46 AM
@twospin:
If you share your ideas here, I'm sure someone will build it. There are several people looking at these threads specifically for new ideas to try (like me, for example). After all, I understand that the OCMPMM (the original subject of this thread) started out that way. And just look at what's happened!
So, if you can publish a sketch or drawing, we might be able to tell you if your idea is new, and if it seems to be worth trying in a prototype. I assure you, the skills and motivation and tooling are there.
Al,
Glad to see you again!
I miss that motor.
2Marco (from Hamburg in Germany)
Wrong way - let use FEM program (ANSOFT, COMSOL, JMAG) - after manufacture/
For historical reasons, I have uploaded the PDF file containing the OCMPMM/WhipMag build information and transcript here, to overunity.com. This file was previously located at ospmm.org, which appears to have been abandoned.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=340
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHu6YYNPKNA
Quote from: Asymatrix on August 12, 2009, 05:57:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHu6YYNPKNA
Why is this video removed?
Check it out.
The working magnet motor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEMJYIQQZTo
Check it out.
The working magnet motor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEMJYIQQZTo
Another True Working Magnet Motor Videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvWxe_RRo8k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpvkc3TxLrQ
Also lot of magnet motor related videos.
http://www.youtube.com/user/theENERGYDREAM#g/u
They're all scams, just guys looking for sucker investors. Sorry to be a downer. Magnets embedded in a cylinder doesn't do anything, it certainly does not generate free energy. You're watching con men. It might be out there but that's definitely not it.
Agreed. This motor is most probably a scam, at least untill the "secret" is revealed 100%. Permanent magnets, as in "permanent", are permanently potential carriers of energy from the day they was magnetized. Unless there is a major change in the magnetism, permanent magnets cannot provide energy of any kind. End of story.
Vidar
Hi all,
anyway, I am sure that all of you replicators have done your work very very well, nonetheless the original invention merely a fake than a working device.
... Well, I'm just want to build my new device, therefor I will need mostly a WhipMag type: case, bearings and may be at least 4 ring/torus magnets for stators.
Sure, I could just order them from competent manufacturer, but ... I tought: it could be nice to bring some old and lovely handmade devices to life again ;).
So, if anyone wanna sell or 'lease' his/her old Whipmag replication, please feel free to place me an offer.
I need them for this one >>>:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9597.0
Many thanks and best Regards,
UTiLeeTY
Whipmag revival??
Many of us remember the sensation on this forum with this thread (203 pages):
http://overunity.com/3871/working-magnetic-motor-on-you-tube/3030/#lastPost
That was about 10 years ago. The working paper:
OC Magnetic Perpetual Motion Machine Oct 2007 Documentation (131 pages):
http://overunity.com/downloads/sa/view/down/340/#.WVuGb4XhUrE
People who want to know more about the history of the Whipmag:
https://peswiki.com/directory:oc-mpmm-magnet-motor
In a short period many replications where build, all with the intention to grasp perpetual motion or to gain overunity. None of this attempts did reach it's goal. For 2 years there was the hope that this 'all magnet mechanical device' was a key to OU. The principle was not new. The inventor Donald Kelly was experimenting in the seventies with a magnetic wheel motor based on only PM:
http://freenrg.info/Patents/Mag_Motors/US4179633.pdf
He invented also a 'magnetic torque multiplier' with an electric motor driving a small axial 'whip wheel':
https://www.google.com/patents/US4167684
IMHO this last patent carries a lot of potentiality as torque amplifier and maybe as OU device.
I lost my belief to see an all permanent magnet motor running without some external power or control. Normally the big magnet wheel was losing in a short time speed and came to a halt. People didn't solve at least 2 problems. First the sticking (cogging) of the opposite, interacting magnets and second synchronizing the drive wheels to attain a maximum effect.
In 2007 a patent of Victor Diduck was published of a magnetic motor in the style of D. Kelly:
https://www.google.com/patents/US20070296284
A great 3D drawing and explanation video of this is made by Mario Gudec. (see more of him!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebHEW3Ac0Gw
Last month I became convinced that Kelly's US4167684 patent needs more attention. I am longing to make the hardware to explore this principle in my home lab. I hope more people at this forum are in for a revival of the Whipmag era. We go to show a working magnet motor on YouTube .......... and also in real! Have a good time. Bests Bertoa
Do you really want magneto-mechanical OU motor ? Try to make additional freedom of movement incorporated.
Hi Bertoa,
Another interesting design is to keep the magnets stationary but have a polarizing rotor. Finding the balance between repulsion and attraction is where this is going to lock.
CN1184375A - Constant motion method and structure for magnetic motor
https://www.google.com/patents/CN1184375A?cl=en
Hallo DreamThinkBuild ... and Enjoy.
It's too simple to be true, this design of Mada Heng. It looks not difficult for replication. By turning the core magnet poles the rotor runs in opposite direction. I can't wait to explore this principle; you too? Always first the quest for the right parts. That delays this kind of projects unfortunately. Without some control this Mada Heng device is going to lock. Maybe it is not that difficult to disturb the balance (or sticky point) at the right moment.
Now you are talking! That's the correct principle ! Both the stator magnets and the rotor magnets must be running - equally and in opposite direction or one in rotary and one in displacement mode - the total momentu is zero while there is continuous movement. I saw that first in old patent...
This design will mot work. It is too good and simple to be true.
I have only made simulations of this, and the total torque in one cycle is zero.
The reason is because the rotary iron cores will rest between inner S and outer N. To escape this sticky spot you need torque that is not present at that point.
The rotor will turn clockwise as much as counter clockwise.
Vidar
Quote from: DreamThinkBuild on July 04, 2017, 05:12:09 PM
Hi Bertoa,
Another interesting design is to keep the magnets stationary but have a polarizing rotor. Finding the balance between repulsion and attraction is where this is going to lock.
CN1184375A - Constant motion method and structure for magnetic motor
https://www.google.com/patents/CN1184375A?cl=en (https://www.google.com/patents/CN1184375A?cl=en)
Low-Q, I agree this set-up of the Mada Heng device will hang at the sticky spot. A static magnet device, like this and the whipmag, will fail. We need at least one variable magnet field, whether from the rotor or stator. This will preferably be feeded and controlled from outside the device. It doesn't matter if this variable field is generated by an electromagnet or a permanent magnet. Take CLaNZeRS whipmag replication; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCVri4R31gU
None of these replications does control (power and syncronize) the small stator wheel from outside. The goal was that the whipmag has to run on it's own, just like this Mada Heng device. Maybe, with some outside help, more torque can be gained. We will see. The drawing of the next device has maybe a better chance to gain some OU.
Hi Bertoa,
I haven't built a replica but I've done some simple test with a linear version to see if it was possible to get the metal to move when polarized. What I found is that if you have the metal either to close to one magnet(N) or the other(S) it will just want to stick to it, in the middle it will just cancel and no movement.
I did build a test version of another patent that uses the surface tension of ferro fluid.
CN1030332A - Magnetic energy generator
https://patents.google.com/patent/CN1030332A/en (https://patents.google.com/patent/CN1030332A/en)
While this didn't work, it was a fun learning experience. The seals on the device broke when it slammed into a metal shelf so it looks like a mess. Attached picture of build.
If you look in this video at 6:58:
Monster magnet meets magnetic fluid...
https://youtu.be/L8cCvAITGWM?t=418 (https://youtu.be/L8cCvAITGWM?t=418)
You will see that he puts a Lego block in ferro fluid and the surface tension pushes it to the side. I've been testing with this surface tension of the ferro fluid and you can get some rotation but the build up of liquid on the rotor will actually pull it back . Maybe a hydrophobic coating can overcome this(?). More testing is needed.
@dreamthinkbuild, In my prototypes of linear- or rotational magnetic motors I avoid as much as possible the use of iron. This metal absorbs/deflects/neutralizes magnetic fields. You try to use iron in the form of ferro fluid within a magnetic field to attain movement. I don't know if there is anything to gain with this messy stuff. As you said all experiments are learning experiences in the first place and leads to new insight. The magnetic fluid video from Braniac is great.
This person has a multi-million hit emperium on YouTube. I like his work and logo.
Today, I ordered the parts nessesary for my next project. I hope to start next week. All steps will be filmed and put on YT. My last experiments with a linear electro magnetic resonator you can find at this playlist:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUCdELlsEmQNpfEJ-ZVIJRNWbg7OTBwKF
I can't wait to start the revival of the whipmag era behind the workbench.
Summer greetings, Bertoa
I was in the Steorn forum when this came up years ago. Couldn't see how it worked then. But now I had a related idea:
All you need are 2 equal sized rotors mounted on rails, some strong bar neos and some weights and you could have an accelerating perpetuum mobile. Inspired by the OCMM but a bit different. See the attached PDF.
Anyone builder could make it with relatively little effort.
@ hdeasy. Thanks for your suggestion. The OCMM didn't work, not from Steorn and not from the many replications in those days. You want to use gravity/flywheel to give a whip to the wheels before the whip of the magnets in repel mode can happen. I am afraid the wheels will come soon in a balance position and stop.
Building this kind of devices is never easy. Visualising is the first step and is done in thoughts and sketches. Getting the stuff together before you can start the experiments is an other story. You need the right parts, tools, instruments and craftsmanship to bring the test setup together. And don't forget the money involved in this often hopeless research.
I like new idea's, but I don't see PM or OU happen with only magnets and no external power or synchronisation. Beside that, I didn't lost my faith in OU, even if other people failed to make it happen over the last century.
Magnets cannot provide energy
Gravity cannot provide energy
Flywheels cannot provide energy
Adding these together in one way or the other, cannot provide energy. Because none of them can provide energy.
So bottom line must be that no thoughts, sketches, craftmanship, skills or tools can change this.
Vidar
It's because people don't listen. They do not listen to the ideas of those who have no resources.
Why do you search in patent office for the newest patents - they are crippled to hide the info - while the oldest ones are telling the truth. If you want PMM working you have to add additional axis of freedom to rotation or movement.
@Bertoa: Yes, it would need expert timing (the Kung Fu of energy). What you could do is have opto switches and servo motors adjusting the speed of the swaying motion to keep the wheels synchronized. The weights swaying would get you the first approximation and if you had an truly excellent craftsman (not that you aren't!) you could set up the weights precisely with the right offset and size and exquisitely precise initial conditions to get it working without electrical adjustments. But even with the adjustments - they would be low energy as the main energy is already there from the weights.
So with fine adjustments it could work. With large enough wheels would could accelerate up to some good speed and you would have a few kW. Yes it's all just on paper now. I am also having another system (inertial - flywheels with motors and a few extras) built with 2 teams - a company and a colleague in Tenerife. It's a race to see who wins that one. The company is too busy with short staffing in the Summer holidays so the islander may beat them.
Hi Low-Q, the bottom line that nothing can change the law of nature is true for systems. Law, thruth and systems are all human concepts/strategies to deal with the world but is not reality itself.
Scientific paradigms are beacons on a sea of possibilities. Nobody can force me to sail on beacons. In case of the PMM you can better ask the question what setup can supply work? Maybe some parts provide work as a catalyst in a (well timed) process of rotation. In that situation the remark of member forest fits perfect by suggesting to add more axis of freedom to movement.
A flywheel cannot provide energy; but is helpful to supply work at the right moment, by pushing a magnet over a dead point in a PMM device. It will lose something but the reward is maybe more.
The word maybe, the doubt but also experiment and knowledge; this is the very core of science! At this forum people are open and plucked enough to thrust their own intuition. Freedom is an an other word for nothing left to lose, tells a song. In that position we can only gain.
"Freedom is an an other word for
nothing left to lose, tells a song. In that position we
can only gain."
You said it berea
What you are saying, sort of, is that even if we experience that a mass is gravitationally attracted to another mass, it might in spite of evedence, not be true.
The apple fell down. This is true from our human perspective and experience. Does that mean we don't know enough to say this is the ultimate truth? Will the apple in some occation fall upwards into the sky?
The same analogy can be applied to the conservation of energy. Humans have sufficient knowledge to say this is the ultimate truth.
The same analogy can be transferred to magnetism. How many hobbyists haven't spent years of their life to figure out how to debunk well established physical evedence without success?
There is no good reason why we should continue to debunk reality. Figuratively speaking you believe that the earth is flat ( yes there are people calling themself flat earthers - how stupid is that?)
Vidar
Quote from: Bertoa on July 09, 2017, 06:06:15 PM
Hi Low-Q, the bottom line that nothing can change the law of nature is true for systems. Law, thruth and systems are all human concepts/strategies to deal with the world but is not reality itself.
Scientific paradigms are beacons on a sea of possibilities. Nobody can force me to sail on beacons. In case of the PMM you can better ask the question what setup can supply work? Maybe some parts provide work as a catalyst in a (well timed) process of rotation. In that situation the remark of member forest fits perfect by suggesting to add more axis of freedom to movement.
A flywheel cannot provide energy; but is helpful to supply work at the right moment, by pushing a magnet over a dead point in a PMM device. It will lose something but the reward is maybe more.
The word maybe, the doubt but also experiment and knowledge; this is the very core of science! At this forum people are open and plucked enough to thrust their own intuition. Freedom is an an other word for nothing left to lose, tells a song. In that position we can only gain.
Conservation of energy is a load of hooey. It's a remnant of the steam age. Before steam there was no real concept of energy. But when the steam engines began to churn out energy, people started to think. Then the first results came in that energy could change its nature from electrical to mechanical or heat or potential energy but the total amount always remained the same. So far so good. But in my opinion and that of many others they were too hasty to rush into print with a generalization from a few special cases to a general principle. Was any attempt made to find the exceptions that tested (old English: proved) the rule?
Nah - it was too comfortable to construct a new hallowed cow. So they built their holy cow of the gold of the oil industry and wo betide a Moses who should smash the tablets and rail against their folly.
Flame off. But indeed there are many ways to free energy as the threads here testify. My magnetic way is one and I will soon have my simulation in shape to show it definitely works according to standard physics. My other system, the inertial one, has now 3 groups poised to build it. The race is on there. I know that Steorn's systems also function - they are just so weak that it's hard to show. My inertial one is easy peasy and will churn out 2 to 3 kW from 30W input. And in vacuo possibly a 100 times more efficient. This stuff can't be stopped by holier-than-thou pseuds. Paul Babcock, Jim Murray & co. have some powerful systems to avoid CEMF. Serps etc. So the holy cow is crumbling.
Quote from: Bertoa on July 09, 2017, 06:06:15 PM
Hi Low-Q, the bottom line that nothing can change the law of nature is true for systems.
The law of nature is violated in this pendulum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FzK2XKQ-74
it swings higher than its dropped point.
Norman
You know better than me that this kind of discussion is going on as long as modern science (and for sure this forum) exists. It is not that I doubt well established physical evidence but under certain conditions a 500kg glider is falling upwards into the sky. This conditions are also scientifically explainable but till about 1900 this was impossible. People on this forum explore certain conditions. I spent 80 euro to build a test setup of a PMM. How stupid is that? Curiosity does even costs people's lives. Low-Q, thank's for your views on this theme. This forum is worth visiting because of geeks who spend time and money to do unconventional stuff. Ok, enough of this...
My next project is a test setup of a permanent magnet amplifier. The goal is to explore the interaction between fast rotating magnet vortexes, torque and movement in different axes. For this device I use 2 the same DC motors connected to a V/A meter so I can measure under all conditions the in- output power in Watt. The actuator wheel is freely movable so I can search for the best result/efficiency in the system.
Well, the pendulum stops. How can that be ::) ?
Vidar
Quote from: Low-Q on July 10, 2017, 04:57:40 PM
Well, the pendulum stops. How can that be ::) ?
Vidar
It stops because the video is faked. In order to get the pendulum to swing higher on the left than it started from the board is not vertical. It is laying back and tilted slightly to the left. It is obvious that is what is going on because the pendulum only swings back slightly past what should be the bottom of the arc when it should at least go as high as it started if the magnets were actually doing anything.
Yup. I know. The pendulum is already "charged" with magnetic potential. So when the pendulum is raised to its starting point, its potential energy is more than just gravitational.
That also results in a much lower position than the starting point when it returns, because the magnetic potential offsets the pendulum with a few degrees clockwise.
How would this forum be like without competent people like us citfta. LOL ;D
Quote from: citfta on July 10, 2017, 05:30:09 PM
It stops because the video is faked. In order to get the pendulum to swing higher on the left than it started from the board is not vertical. It is laying back and tilted slightly to the left. It is obvious that is what is going on because the pendulum only swings back slightly past what should be the bottom of the arc when it should at least go as high as it started if the magnets were actually doing anything.
May I provide a little advice?
Be careful when you use the VA-meter. When we deal with electric motors and generators, we also deals with inductors.
Inductors is well known to scew voltage and current out of phase.
You must consider this phase. If not, you will get wrong data if you only look at the voltage and current readings, and then straight forward multiply them. Few VA-meters can deal with correct energy readings due to this.
An extreme example is the parallell connection between a capacitor and inductor. These have together a resonant frequency with a given Q-factor. The less the losses in resistance, the higher the Q.
High Q means there is easy to build up a resonance. Supplying a signal to these components that has the same frequency, you measure next to zero current. However, the current flow between the capacitor and inductor is very high.
The low input current is a result of almost 180° phase shift between voltage and current inside the circuit.
In a serial connection, you will read high input current and low voltage, but voltage over the capacitor an inductor is very high.
Very easy to make inaccurate conclusions if you don't take care of everything during a measurement.
Vidar
Quote from: Bertoa on July 10, 2017, 12:54:11 PM
You know better than me that this kind of discussion is going on as long as modern science (and for sure this forum) exists. It is not that I doubt well established physical evidence but under certain conditions a 500kg glider is falling upwards into the sky. This conditions are also scientifically explainable but till about 1900 this was impossible. People on this forum explore certain conditions. I spent 80 euro to build a test setup of a PMM. How stupid is that? Curiosity does even costs people's lives. Low-Q, thank's for your views on this theme. This forum is worth visiting because of geeks who spend time and money to do unconventional stuff. Ok, enough of this...
My next project is a test setup of a permanent magnet amplifier. The goal is to explore the interaction between fast rotating magnet vortexes, torque and movement in different axes. For this device I use 2 the same DC motors connected to a V/A meter so I can measure under all conditions the in- output power in Watt. The actuator wheel is freely movable so I can search for the best result/efficiency in the system.
Quote from: citfta on July 10, 2017, 05:30:09 PM
It stops because the video is faked.
This pendulum is not faked. All of you cannot make a simple observation.
1. notice how the pendulum moves.... down normally and then up past
the dropped point and then back down very softly and then sits at the bottom.
2. If you were really observant you would have to first say that is very unusual....
It if very clear that clockwise the pendulum looks quite normal but not
counter clockwise.
Now I leave the challenge to you to explain that.....
The really sad thing is that no one has asked to see it in person.
No it is not perpetual motion but no normal pendulum can do this.....
Where does the energy come from that pushes the pendulum past
its dropped point
I am very diasppointed in the lack of curiosity in this device that
simply and clearly show you in front of your eyes that not all energy
is conserved.....
Permanent manets do have potential energy.....
the main point of this video is to show that permanent magnets can
do work and get past the sticky spot and not get stuck at the sticky spot.
PLEASE wake up and get out of your narrow tunnel.
Norman
In order to get the pendulum to swing higher on the left than it started from the board is not vertical. It is laying back and tilted slightly to the left.
The board is tilted straight back - not sideways. The reason for that no one has even
asked but I'll explain it to you for free. The gravity and magnetic forces have
to be balanced to make it work. In this setup gravity is stronger than the magnets
and it has to be weakened. And if the magnets get too close then the sticky spot
will take over and accomplish nothing.
Norman
It is obvious that is what is going on because the pendulum only swings back slightly past what should be the bottom of the arc when it should at least go as high as it started if the magnets were actually doing anything.
@norman6538
Over unity apply ONLY to systems that can produce more energy than it consumes. The pendulum in question is NOT overunity. Because it stops.
I have also explained this pendulum a few posts further up.
Vidar
Quote from: Low-Q on July 10, 2017, 07:11:15 PM
@norman6538
Over unity apply ONLY to systems that can produce more energy than it consumes. The pendulum in question is NOT overunity. Because it stops.
I have also explained this pendulum a few posts further up.
Vidar
Overunity is simply more energy out than in.
Perpetual motion means it keeps on going....
You have missed the very simple principle that the pendulum demonstrates.
No pendulum will go past its dropped point. So where does that extra
2 hrs of lifting come from? It is clearly more out than in.....
Norman
This is the case, as I see it. It might be wrong, but this is what I see:
The pendulum is dropped at 2 o'clock. It makes a movement clockwise up to 12 o'clock.
Now, 12 o'clock is the new dropping point.
Then the pendulum return counterclockwise at 4 o'clock.
This can only be because the forces (magnetic or gravitational doesn't matter) that pulls on the mass on the pendulum, is offset. Nothing more to it.
Vidar
Quote from: norman6538 on July 10, 2017, 08:00:32 PM
Overunity is simply more energy out than in.
Perpetual motion means it keeps on going....
You have missed the very simple principle that the pendulum demonstrates.
No pendulum will go past its dropped point. So where does that extra
2 hrs of lifting come from? It is clearly more out than in.....
Norman
Quote from: norman6538 on July 10, 2017, 08:00:32 PM
Overunity is simply more energy out than in.
Perpetual motion means it keeps on going....
You have missed the very simple principle that the pendulum demonstrates.
No pendulum will go past its dropped point. So where does that extra
2 hrs of lifting come from? It is clearly more out than in.....
Norman
It is not clearly more out than in. If it was, then it would return to a higher position on the right side. As it is, it doesn't even get close to the starting position on the right side. Whether by tilting or magnetic attraction you have only shifted the center of the swing to the left. You have not added any energy. Sorry, but your analysis is incorrect.
Webby, thank you for some sincere discussion.
Quote from: webby1 on July 11, 2017, 12:50:00 AM
To answer this question we would need to know how much lifting force Mr. Hand is applying to lift the pendulum up to the raised start point,
Any weight could do the same thing as the hand and that could be measured.
And according to pendulum physics that work will then get used up when the
weight falls and then goes back up past 6 oclock. But the point is that no known
pendulum will pass 10 oclock and go on to noon unless there is some work force
doing that. And in this case it can only be the permanent magnets. I can assure you
that the hand did not push the pendulum down and add any extra power because
on one case I used a stick as a catch and pulled it out to the right and it behaved
the same way - past 10 on to noon and then slowly back down to 6 oclock.
Think about slowly back down to 6 oclock. There is some force preventing it from
going back past 6 oclock to 5 or 4.... And I pourport that the opposite of that
force has pushed it past 10 oclock on to noon.
No it will not go past noon because there is a sticky spot.
No it has no useable energy because if the balance is disturbed by taking power
out it will get stuck at one of the magnets....
It might be possible that a very small amount of work could be taken out but
I see no reason to spend any serious effort on that because I doubt it is
scaleable.
Norman
and then we would need to know how much force can be collected from the pendulum falling down from the 12:00 position it reaches.
With your testbed those could be very difficult to measure especially since I think the force is not a constant force and changes with the angle of change, and your testbed is rather "light", meaning not much force,,, by looking at your video that is what I think I see.
It could be that Mr. Hand is putting in a lot more energy than what could be collect from the return fall but without measurements there is no telling if that is true or not.
Have you tried to let it go "over the top"?? can it go past the 12:00 position,, and if so does it get pulled back?
If there was no loss, the pendulum would have enough velocity to swing back to start position.
The magnets at 12 o'clock will slow down the return and cause the pendulum to loose velocity. Loosing velocity means loosing kinetic energy.
Without loss, this pendulum is in perfect balance.
Vidar
WEBBY1 said
"If you look at your "hockey stick" lever,, the pendulum weight is not directly underneath the pivot but you can visualize an arm from the pivot that does go directly to the center of mass on the end of the arm,, thus a virtual arm. You can look at the magnetic forces and do something similar and then create a virtual path that the magnetic force interaction has\follows. You could remove the "weight" by extending the pendulum arm up past the pivot and balancing that,, now you can use Mr. Hand to actually feel the magnetic force interaction through the path of rotation."
You are very astute Webby.... the pivot is a little to the side but the white piece of paper
with the arrow represents its center point where it hangs straight down otherwise it would have been deceptive. I made this about 9 years ago and have showed it to
various folks and all they can do is shake their head and say "its a very sick pendulum". Part of what makes it work is there is one vertical magnet on the
pendulum and the others are flat and they have to be placed at the right distance
from the pendulum and at the right gap from the pendulum. If the polarity of
the pendulum magnet is changed it will not work.
I have another permanent magnetic embodiment that uses a magnet attracted to
metal and is about 200% OU - work out over work in - but not enough to make it reciprocate. From what I have seen it takes about 300-400% OU
to do the setting and resetting to get it to self reciprocate.
Because of these 2 devices I know all energy is not conserved and permanent
magnets can do useful work.
Norman